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BROKEBACK MOUNTAIN => Scene-by-Scene => Topic started by: Melisande on January 08, 2006, 09:41:21 AM

Title: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Melisande on January 08, 2006, 09:41:21 AM
Here's the place to talk about Cassie and Ennis.
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: peteinportland on January 09, 2006, 08:36:31 PM
I loved the Cassie scenes, though not sure why. I find her character interesting in this movie.
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: leopoldo on January 10, 2006, 04:16:09 AM
She's initially portrayed as a good-time girl, loosening up Ennis a little (look at the daughter's first reactions) but becomes rapidly more involving as a character. She seems to suggest on the one hand, Jack's irreplaceability in Ennis' affections, and on the other, the damage Ennis causes by his inability to express his feelings in appropriate ways. The final scene with Cassie in the diner shows how easy it is to fall in love with him, and how hard it is to deal with that love. After she leaves (and of course we feel for her - she seems genuine, warm, a woman to love) we see Ennis, once again alone, his terrible meal half eaten in front of him. It's a scene with a punch in the solar plexus.
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: aceygirl on January 10, 2006, 07:57:13 AM
Good points Leopoldo.

However, it's never clear to me just how she could have gotten very far in a relationship with Ennis in the first place. We see her coming on aggressively in the bar, but even then he just goes along. It's clear he's not exactly enthusiastic. So it seems a little improbable to me that a few scenes later she's gotten far enough along with him to be meeting his daughter and talking about marriage. I just don't see what Ennis would have done to make her get to that point.  ???
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: peteinportland on January 10, 2006, 09:26:11 AM
Acey, probably months passed between those scenes.

Cassie gets so far with Ennis because Ennis is a lonely, scared man who is probably happy for the company, the attention, and the validation of his masculinity and manhood (remember, Cassie meets Ennis after the Thanksgiving scene when Alma outs him). Plus, in seeing her three scenes again last night, she pursues Ennis in much the same way that Jack does.

Their first meeting is much like Ennis and Jacks. "I'm Cassie Cartwright." "Ennis." Then a pause, and we can hear the line from Jack in our heads. "You're folks stop at Ennis?" With Cassie, after the pause, Ennis adds, "Del Mar." Then Cassie dances with Ennis, although Cassie is doing all the work, just as Jack did most of the dancing around each other on BBM. Cassie makes the first move with an uncomprehending Ennis by putting her feet in his lap. She gets to call him "Dummy" because he is so clueless.

One of the things I find so heartbreaking in his scenes with Cassie (especially as a gay man) is how different Ennis can be with Cassie and not with Jack, the love of his life. He can take Cassie on an outing with his daughters. He can dance with Cassie in the bar and rub her feet. He can have teary public emotional scenes. He can do all those things with this girl he has just met, but never with Jack.

In the last scene with Cassie I feel so much for both of them. She has no idea that he is already taken heart and soul by Jack. And he can't tell her. I really like Cassie and think she would be good for Ennis, except for Jack got there first many years before.
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: David on January 10, 2006, 01:26:44 PM
I loved the Cassie scenes, though not sure why. I find her character interesting in this movie.

Pete, I agree. She's really pretty and one reviewer called her a '3D' character.
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: David on January 10, 2006, 01:32:27 PM
Acey, probably months passed between those scenes.

Cassie gets so far with Ennis because Ennis is a lonely, scared man who is probably happy for the company, the attention, and the validation of his masculinity and manhood (remember, Cassie meets Ennis after the Thanksgiving scene when Alma outs him). Plus, in seeing her three scenes again last night, she pursues Ennis in much the same way that Jack does.

Their first meeting is much like Ennis and Jacks. "I'm Cassie Cartwright." "Ennis." Then a pause, and we can hear the line from Jack in our heads. "You're folks stop at Ennis?" With Cassie, after the pause, Ennis adds, "Del Mar." Then Cassie dances with Ennis, although Cassie is doing all the work, just as Jack did most of the dancing around each other on BBM. Cassie makes the first move with an uncomprehending Ennis by putting her feet in his lap. She gets to call him "Dummy" because he is so clueless.

One of the things I find so heartbreaking in his scenes with Cassie (especially as a gay man) is how different Ennis can be with Cassie and not with Jack, the love of his life. He can take Cassie on an outing with his daughters. He can dance with Cassie in the bar and rub her feet. He can have teary public emotional scenes. He can do all those things with this girl he has just met, but never with Jack.

In the last scene with Cassie I feel so much for both of them. She has no idea that he is already taken heart and soul by Jack. And he can't tell her. I really like Cassie and think she would be good for Ennis, except for Jack got there first many years before.

WOW! Great analysis as usual. I hadn't thought about Cassie coming on to Ennis like Jack, but I think you're right.
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: David on January 10, 2006, 01:35:28 PM
She's initially portrayed as a good-time girl, loosening up Ennis a little (look at the daughter's first reactions) but becomes rapidly more involving as a character. She seems to suggest on the one hand, Jack's irreplaceability in Ennis' affections, and on the other, the damage Ennis causes by his inability to express his feelings in appropriate ways. The final scene with Cassie in the diner shows how easy it is to fall in love with him, and how hard it is to deal with that love. After she leaves (and of course we feel for her - she seems genuine, warm, a woman to love) we see Ennis, once again alone, his terrible meal half eaten in front of him. It's a scene with a punch in the solar plexus.

A point well made: He was ALONE in that diner, pushing around some half-eaten apple pie, and dying inside. The message was that he was emotionally unavailable to anyone other that Jack.
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: aceygirl on January 10, 2006, 01:58:55 PM
Acey, probably months passed between those scenes.

Cassie gets so far with Ennis because Ennis is a lonely, scared man who is probably happy for the company, the attention, and the validation of his masculinity and manhood (remember, Cassie meets Ennis after the Thanksgiving scene when Alma outs him). Plus, in seeing her three scenes again last night, she pursues Ennis in much the same way that Jack does.


In the last scene with Cassie I feel so much for both of them. She has no idea that he is already taken heart and soul by Jack. And he can't tell her. I really like Cassie and think she would be good for Ennis, except for Jack got there first many years before.

Excellent points Pete. I wasn't implying that time hadn't passed between those scenes (well, duh! LOL) but I just couldn't see how no matter how much time had passed, how Ennis could have gotten to the point of marriage-talk with Cassie (albeit she is the one doing all the marriage-talk). But the points about validating his manhood and such do make sense, especially after the Thanksgiving scene.

It's amazing what repression can lead a person to do (or let happen). This is a good reminder of that. The long-forgotten memory of a boyfriend whom I ended up realizing I'd led on because I was lonely, not because I was in love, and stayed with a while through sheer guilt now comes up. Geez--I guess many of us have been Ennis in our lives! And Jack, too--the scene where he rushes hundreds of miles to see Ennis, believing Ennis is ready to commit--oh man, has anyone  not gone through that kinda heartbreak and letdown?
 :-\

I'm glad they enhanced the role of Cassie in the movie, since it was not in the book. You're also right on about the freedom Ennis has to "deal" with the Cassie relationship, as opposed to with Jack...maybe Cassie's sauciness and aggressiveness reminded him of Jack, making it all the harder.
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: canmark on January 11, 2006, 08:55:16 PM
One of the things I find so heartbreaking in his scenes with Cassie (especially as a gay man) is how different Ennis can be with Cassie and not with Jack, the love of his life. He can take Cassie on an outing with his daughters. He can dance with Cassie in the bar and rub her feet. He can have teary public emotional scenes. He can do all those things with this girl he has just met, but never with Jack.

Excellent point.

What I was thinking on my last viewing of BBM was how the Ennis-Cassie relationship parallels the Jack-Randall relationship the way the two Thanksgiving dinners reflected each other. And what's interesting about both Ennis and Jack's relationships is that they are both understandable and objectionable to us (the audience) and to Jack and Ennis.

What I mean is, Ennis is lonely and alone. Cassie pursues him like Lureen pursed Jack. And Ennis may have wanted to hide his homosexuality, which he feared was becoming exposed (Alma clearly knew, and he mentions to Jack about people 'looking at you funny... like they KNOW'). So his actions are somewhat understandable. But they are objectionable because Cassie will clearly end up being hurt. We (the audience) know this; Alma Jr. knows this too, instinctively. And it seems foolish for Ennis to try to find love and happiness with Cassie when it's staring at him right in the face--Jack!

Jack's affair with Randal is similarly understandable. Ennis won't live with him and he has burning sexual needs with no outlet. Randall is a willing--even eager--participant in flirtation. But of course it's objectionable because he's 'cheating' on Ennis. (I wonder: does anyone think Jack would have told Randall about Ennis, or kept him secret? I can't decide on that right now.)

I don't think Ennis realizes the folly of his relationship with Cassie until after Jack dies. He realizes that Cassie, like Alma, will never mean anything to him like Jack. He can't explain it, but he has to hurt her. It's sad, but true, to hear her say 'I don't understand you Ennis del Mar.' Only Jack really understood Ennis. But I think in the end he knows that he'll never go down that path again. Although he may not find another man, he won't ever take up with a woman.
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: jack on January 12, 2006, 06:09:28 PM
this one time i will have to be the lone ranger.  someone made a neat point about the parallel, and we knnow ang likes his parallel structure, practically palindromic, but the interlude added nothing to the movie for me.  cassie may have given junior someone to react to, and there is nothing wrong with cardellini as an actress, but it was a big yawn to me.
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: Carl on January 12, 2006, 06:23:00 PM
I think the scenes with Cassie added several important things to the movie.  One, this is the first inkling we get that Alma Jr. "knows" about her father.  When Cassie asks Jr. how she she feels about their relationship, Jr. almost tries to warn her by saying "maybe daddy's not the marryin kind."  And when Cassie tels Ennis that she does not get him he replies "I'm sorry...".  It was as if he was apologysing to the whole world for being who he was.  And lastly, it was important in the story to show that in spite of everything Ennis tried to be, he was physically, mentally and subconsciously committed to Jack.
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: bbbmedia on January 13, 2006, 01:54:44 PM
I'm a newbie here, so please don't all gang up on me, but I really feel the Cassie subplot was one place where the screenplay weakened the original short story.

I can not imagine why McMurty & Ossana added Cassie to the Ennis-Alma mix

Perhaps, because I know and love the story so much, I found Cassie intrusive, and since I knew how the story ended, I knew Ennis would dump her and go on his solitary way after Alma divorces him.

Some critics and viewers complain that the movie is longish and slow paced after The Summer of Love. For me, the added Cassie scenes are responsible for those complaints. If the Cassie subplot had been left on the cutting room floor, the movie would lose nothing in telling Ennis' story, and pick up the tempo of the 1963-1983 sequences.

(I am a solitary "bachelor." I know the joys and sorrows of living by myself. I identify with Ennis and I would never let a Cassie (or a Cassio) in my life)

     
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: kumari on January 13, 2006, 07:12:56 PM
this one time i will have to be the lone ranger.  someone made a neat point about the parallel, and we knnow ang likes his parallel structure, practically palindromic, but the interlude added nothing to the movie for me.  cassie may have given junior someone to react to, and there is nothing wrong with cardellini as an actress, but it was a big yawn to me.

Yay!
I love discord!
Agreeing all the time is boring.
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: lauren on January 13, 2006, 08:08:17 PM
Acey, probably months passed between those scenes.

Cassie gets so far with Ennis because Ennis is a lonely, scared man who is probably happy for the company, the attention, and the validation of his masculinity and manhood (remember, Cassie meets Ennis after the Thanksgiving scene when Alma outs him). Plus, in seeing her three scenes again last night, she pursues Ennis in much the same way that Jack does.

Their first meeting is much like Ennis and Jacks. "I'm Cassie Cartwright." "Ennis." Then a pause, and we can hear the line from Jack in our heads. "You're folks stop at Ennis?" With Cassie, after the pause, Ennis adds, "Del Mar." Then Cassie dances with Ennis, although Cassie is doing all the work, just as Jack did most of the dancing around each other on BBM. Cassie makes the first move with an uncomprehending Ennis by putting her feet in his lap. She gets to call him "Dummy" because he is so clueless.

One of the things I find so heartbreaking in his scenes with Cassie (especially as a gay man) is how different Ennis can be with Cassie and not with Jack, the love of his life. He can take Cassie on an outing with his daughters. He can dance with Cassie in the bar and rub her feet. He can have teary public emotional scenes. He can do all those things with this girl he has just met, but never with Jack.

In the last scene with Cassie I feel so much for both of them. She has no idea that he is already taken heart and soul by Jack. And he can't tell her. I really like Cassie and think she would be good for Ennis, except for Jack got there first many years before.

I don't see the Cassie/Jack parallel at all -- Jack doesn't pursue Ennis in the same way Cassie does whatsoever. Cassie's very forward, more like a "predator" to site the infamous word. She purses him when he's clearly not interested. Jack's not like this at all. He flirts with Ennis on BBM in an understated way. Jack doesn't do the equivalent of sticking his feet on his lap. It has a completely different feel to it.  The only person who is good for Ennis is Jack. Cassie wouldn't be good for him because a woman will never do it for him. It would be a huge mistake, like Alma. And in that finals scene with Cassie, he knows that.
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: David on January 13, 2006, 08:10:52 PM
Acey, probably months passed between those scenes.

Cassie gets so far with Ennis because Ennis is a lonely, scared man who is probably happy for the company, the attention, and the validation of his masculinity and manhood (remember, Cassie meets Ennis after the Thanksgiving scene when Alma outs him). Plus, in seeing her three scenes again last night, she pursues Ennis in much the same way that Jack does.

Their first meeting is much like Ennis and Jacks. "I'm Cassie Cartwright." "Ennis." Then a pause, and we can hear the line from Jack in our heads. "You're folks stop at Ennis?" With Cassie, after the pause, Ennis adds, "Del Mar." Then Cassie dances with Ennis, although Cassie is doing all the work, just as Jack did most of the dancing around each other on BBM. Cassie makes the first move with an uncomprehending Ennis by putting her feet in his lap. She gets to call him "Dummy" because he is so clueless.

One of the things I find so heartbreaking in his scenes with Cassie (especially as a gay man) is how different Ennis can be with Cassie and not with Jack, the love of his life. He can take Cassie on an outing with his daughters. He can dance with Cassie in the bar and rub her feet. He can have teary public emotional scenes. He can do all those things with this girl he has just met, but never with Jack.

In the last scene with Cassie I feel so much for both of them. She has no idea that he is already taken heart and soul by Jack. And he can't tell her. I really like Cassie and think she would be good for Ennis, except for Jack got there first many years before.

I don't see the Cassie/Jack parallel at all -- Jack doesn't pursue Ennis in the same way Cassie does whatsoever. Cassie's very forward, more like a "predator" to site the infamous word. She purses him when he's clearly not interested. Jack's not like this at all. He flirts with Ennis on BBM in an understated way. Jack doesn't do the equivalent of sticking his feet on his lap. It has a completely different feel to it.  The only person who is good for Ennis is Jack. Cassie wouldn't be good for him because a woman will never do it for him. It would be a huge mistake, like Alma. And in that finals scene with Cassie, he knows that.

Lauren, while Cassie puts her feet in Ennis' lap, Jack does put his erect #@!* in Ennis' hand.
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: kumari on January 13, 2006, 08:13:32 PM
Acey, probably months passed between those scenes.

Cassie gets so far with Ennis because Ennis is a lonely, scared man who is probably happy for the company, the attention, and the validation of his masculinity and manhood (remember, Cassie meets Ennis after the Thanksgiving scene when Alma outs him). Plus, in seeing her three scenes again last night, she pursues Ennis in much the same way that Jack does.

Their first meeting is much like Ennis and Jacks. "I'm Cassie Cartwright." "Ennis." Then a pause, and we can hear the line from Jack in our heads. "You're folks stop at Ennis?" With Cassie, after the pause, Ennis adds, "Del Mar." Then Cassie dances with Ennis, although Cassie is doing all the work, just as Jack did most of the dancing around each other on BBM. Cassie makes the first move with an uncomprehending Ennis by putting her feet in his lap. She gets to call him "Dummy" because he is so clueless.

One of the things I find so heartbreaking in his scenes with Cassie (especially as a gay man) is how different Ennis can be with Cassie and not with Jack, the love of his life. He can take Cassie on an outing with his daughters. He can dance with Cassie in the bar and rub her feet. He can have teary public emotional scenes. He can do all those things with this girl he has just met, but never with Jack.

In the last scene with Cassie I feel so much for both of them. She has no idea that he is already taken heart and soul by Jack. And he can't tell her. I really like Cassie and think she would be good for Ennis, except for Jack got there first many years before.

I don't see the Cassie/Jack parallel at all -- Jack doesn't pursue Ennis in the same way Cassie does whatsoever. Cassie's very forward, more like a "predator" to site the infamous word. She purses him when he's clearly not interested. Jack's not like this at all. He flirts with Ennis on BBM in an understated way. Jack doesn't do the equivalent of sticking his feet on his lap. It has a completely different feel to it.  The only person who is good for Ennis is Jack. Cassie wouldn't be good for him because a woman will never do it for him. It would be a huge mistake, like Alma. And in that finals scene with Cassie, he knows that.

And this what Alma Jr is trying to tell Cassie, except that she is not even sure what she is saying.
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: peteinportland on January 13, 2006, 08:42:43 PM
Lauren, it is much easier for Cassie to pursue Ennis because she can be very straight forward. Jack has to proceed very gingerly because if he makes a wrong move, and Ennis is offended, Jack might wind up dead. I also think Ennis is obviously interested in Cassie to some degree; after all they dated to the point that Cassie was thinking of marriage and Ennis felt comfortable taking her to meet his daughter.

I think you do underscore how much easier it is for Cassie to pursue Ennis than it is for Jack to do so. Even today, gay men and women do not have the same freedom to openly pursue objects of our affection (especially in rural areas) or engage in so many of the small intimate gestures that straight people take for granted (holding hands or kissing in public for example---outside the major gay ghettos). I personally think contrasting Ennis and Jack's relationship with Ennis and Cassie's speaks volumes about the heartbreak of the constraints that Jack and Ennis have to face.
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: Ross:Broken on January 14, 2006, 10:53:37 AM
I don't think Ennis realizes the folly of his relationship with Cassie until after Jack dies. He realizes that Cassie, like Alma, will never mean anything to him like Jack. He can't explain it, but he has to hurt her. It's sad, but true, to hear her say 'I don't understand you Ennis del Mar.' Only Jack really understood Ennis. But I think in the end he knows that he'll never go down that path again. Although he may not find another man, he won't ever take up with a woman.

Canmark, I totally agree, and in my opinion, this is the reason why the Cassie relationship is so important to the movie.  To me, Cassie represented Ennis' "last chance" for something resembling a domestic life.  We know all too well why Ennis would not allow for a happy life with Jack, and the end of his relationship with Alma was fated when she first saw them together.  But if he (or we) tried to fool ourselves into thinking that he might somehow forge a semblance of a life with another person and not be alone (outwardly, at least) for the rest of his life (despite the fact that his heart would always, always lie with Jack), it's dashed when we see what happens with Cassie.  Here's an attractive (yeah, a bit trashy, but hey...), vivacious woman who is devoted to him and obviously willing to do all the heavy lifting and yet it won't work out.  That's the nail in the coffin for me: Ennis will always be alone.

I think LC was great and she delivers one of my favorite lines from the movie: "Girls don't fall in love with FUN, Ennis!"  Guess what, Ennis?  Neither do boys.  Damn.
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: lauren on January 14, 2006, 12:32:21 PM
I don't think Ennis realizes the folly of his relationship with Cassie until after Jack dies. He realizes that Cassie, like Alma, will never mean anything to him like Jack. He can't explain it, but he has to hurt her. It's sad, but true, to hear her say 'I don't understand you Ennis del Mar.' Only Jack really understood Ennis. But I think in the end he knows that he'll never go down that path again. Although he may not find another man, he won't ever take up with a woman.

Canmark, I totally agree, and in my opinion, this is the reason why the Cassie relationship is so important to the movie.  To me, Cassie represented Ennis' "last chance" for something resembling a domestic life.  We know all too well why Ennis would not allow for a happy life with Jack, and the end of his relationship with Alma was fated when she first saw them together.  But if he (or we) tried to fool ourselves into thinking that he might somehow forge a semblance of a life with another person and not be alone (outwardly, at least) for the rest of his life (despite the fact that his heart would always, always lie with Jack), it's dashed when we see what happens with Cassie.  Here's an attractive (yeah, a bit trashy, but hey...), vivacious woman who is devoted to him and obviously willing to do all the heavy lifting and yet it won't work out.  That's the nail in the coffin for me: Ennis will always be alone.

I think LC was great and she delivers one of my favorite lines from the movie: "Girls don't fall in love with FUN, Ennis!"  Guess what, Ennis?  Neither do boys.  Damn.

Canmark -- The scene with Cassie takes place before Ennis knows that Jack has died. At this point (after hearing what Jack said during their last trip together), he's rejecting this other path with a woman utterly because he knows Jack is the only one for him and a woman will never satisfy him. I also think he's alone after this.
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: 909dot on January 15, 2006, 04:51:18 PM
Why does Ennis play "Sweet Malissa" on the juke box in the bar scene with Cassie and his daughter...any ideas...it must mean something...the movie is to well thought out to not...any ideas?....anyone?

Todd
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: peteinportland on January 18, 2006, 02:39:06 AM
I don't remember the lines to the song. You bet it has some significance. Anyone know the words?
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: gnash on January 18, 2006, 02:54:38 AM
is it the allman brother's song?

"Melissa"

Crossroads seem to come and go.... yeah
The gypsy flies from coast to coast,
Knowin' many lovin' none,
Bearin' sorrow havin fun,

But back home He'll always run....
..to sweet Melissa. mmmhmmm...

Freight train, each car looks the same.... all the same
And no one knows the gypsy's name,
No one hears his lonely sigh,
There are no blankets where he lies,

In all his deepests dreams the gypsy flies.....
..to sweet Melissa.

Again the mornin's come,
Again he's on the run,
Sunbeams shinin' through his hair,
Appearin' not to have a care.
Pick up your gear n' gypsy roll along...
..roll along.

Crossroads, would you ever let him go? ...no, no.
Oh will you hide the dead man's ghost?
Or will he lie beneath the plain?
Will his spirit roll away?

But I know that he wont stay...
..without Melissa.

Yes I know that he wont stay...
..without Melissa.
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: sport on January 18, 2006, 03:08:04 AM
I've seen some posters here opining that Jack is the only man to whom Ennis has ever been sexually attracted (implying that he's usually attracted to women), and others who consider Ennis to be gay and unlikely to have ever been happy in a relationship with a woman, regardless of whether or not he had ever met Jack.  I'm wondering how people take Ennis' line in the last scene with Cassie, "Guess I wasn't much fun anyway," to which she responds, "Ennis, girls don't fall in love with fun."  Does Ennis mean "fun in the sack," or fun in general (because he's so in love with Jack and feels so lost without him)?
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: peteinportland on January 18, 2006, 03:27:20 AM
I'm sorry, but if those are indeed the right lyrics, they give me goosebumps. Melissa is close to being formed with letters from Ennis Del Mar (missing one s). We see so much of the same imagery from the song in the movie: freight train, sunlight in his hair, crossroads referring to BBM, shit, the whole song. Look at it!

Brokeback Mountain is a cross road for the Jack and Ennis. Look at these lines:

Crossroads, Brokeback Mountain would you ever let him go? ...no, no.
Oh will you hide the dead man's ghost?
Or will he lie beneath the plain?
Will his spirit roll away?

It also fits with other songs referring to the hobo (or gypsy) life.

If Jack is the gypsy, he always runs home to Ennis.

Maybe, I am tired and loopy, but this song in relation to the movie makes me shiver. Seriously. It is the story of Jack and Ennis. It fits as perfectly as the Spanish song playing in the Mexican alley. I am really touched by these lyrics. Spooky.
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: peteinportland on January 18, 2006, 03:41:02 AM
I just come across a line in the book where Ennis sees the family plot, and he "didn't want to know Jack was going in there, to be buried on the grieving plain." Lordy, those lines from the song are spooky.
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: huntinbuddy on January 18, 2006, 04:41:22 PM
I also picked up on the song "Melissa" by the Allman Brothers playing in the background as Ennis & Cassie sort of danced.  As with most songs in movies, you get just a snippet of the lyrics, but instantly I recalled the whole song while at the movie as it was one I used to perform with a group I was in in high school.....oh so many years ago now (1976). The Allman Brothers have been very prolific recorders, but the Album that I have and still listen to quite frequently (actually I have it digital now (CD)), is the "Eat A Peach" album which is dedicated to a brother....Duane Allman, and I believe it was released in 1972.   Are the lyrics haunting for this movie?  Most certainly!   Who would have come up with something like this....the writers (McMurtry)??
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: savadi on January 18, 2006, 05:04:34 PM
re: dancing to " melissa" scene
I believe they played this song at Duane Allman's funeral. Did anyone notice that in this scene, while Ennis was dancing with Cassie, there is couple dancing next to them, and the guy is wearing a dark hat similar to Jack's? I think Lee placed him there as a reminder of Jack, he is not in the room physically but his prescence is there just the same. In fact, I think there are several scenes where Lee has a sort of Jack "ghost" nearby to signify that Ennis may be living apart from Jack but Jack is always in his mind. One of which is right before he gets the post card from Jack announcing his visit, he gets out of the truck to come in the house and a man in a dark hat pases him in the street. I'll have to see the movie again but I think this occurs several times.
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: 909dot on January 18, 2006, 06:20:58 PM
is it the allman brother's song?

"Melissa"

Crossroads seem to come and go.... yeah
The gypsy flies from coast to coast,
Knowin' many lovin' none,
Bearin' sorrow havin fun,

But back home He'll always run....
..to sweet Melissa. mmmhmmm...

Freight train, each car looks the same.... all the same
And no one knows the gypsy's name,
No one hears his lonely sigh,
There are no blankets where he lies,

In all his deepests dreams the gypsy flies.....
..to sweet Melissa.

Again the mornin's come,
Again he's on the run,
Sunbeams shinin' through his hair,
Appearin' not to have a care.
Pick up your gear n' gypsy roll along...
..roll along.

Crossroads, would you ever let him go? ...no, no.
Oh will you hide the dead man's ghost?
Or will he lie beneath the plain?
Will his spirit roll away?

But I know that he wont stay...
..without Melissa.

Yes I know that he wont stay...
..without Melissa.

THANK YOU SO MUCH...it makes so much sense now..of course,,,it gives me chills also...if you are familiar with the book, After Ennis leaves Jacks family, he drives by the family  plot...a depressing grave Yard ...Annie writes..."he didn't want to know Jack was going in there, to be buried on the grieving plain." ...wow..I'm floored...the line in the song "Or will he lie beneath the plain"....wow is all i can say...

Todd
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: 909dot on January 18, 2006, 06:22:56 PM
I just come across a line in the book where Ennis sees the family plot, and he "didn't want to know Jack was going in there, to be buried on the grieving plain." Lordy, those lines from the song are spooky.

Sorry...just read your post...

Todd
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: bbbmedia on January 18, 2006, 09:05:34 PM
I suddenly realized why I dislike Cassie so much.

Another of Annie Proulx's Wyoming stories, "A Lonely Coast" (published in Close Range, with Brokeback), describes three rather desperate Wyoming divorcees who aren't getting any younger and who are looking for sex in all the wrong places from all the wrong men--some of whom are even worse choices than Ennis.

Whether they did this deliberately or not, McMurtry & Ossana depicted Cassie as another of these women: provocatively dressed, sexually agressive, and totally clueless about the objects of her affection.

In her Wyoming stories, Proulx's stresses over and over the isolation of her characters, their desperate need to connect with some one else, and their utter lack of social skills to get the job done.

Cassie is a typical Proulx Wyoming woman. But I feel she wandered into the  Brokeback movie from another Proulx story
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: westexer on January 21, 2006, 06:29:44 PM
Hey y'all, coupla things:

1) Go over to tha Alley Scenes thread and read about the choice of music used when Jack is in Mexico pickin up the prostitute.  It was definitely specifically chosen for that scene.  The lyrics for the Spanish song are posted in English.  Special thanks to someone bilingual for pointin this out.

2) The thing that struck me tha most and still does about the Cassie scenes is when she takes him onto the dance floor.  His posture is totally closed.  Hands jammed in pockets, lookin at tha floor, and shufflin like he's kickin dirt around.  The visiona shame.  I have danced with men in gay bars who felt bad about themselves and what they were doin and they danced exactly the same way.

3) It woulda actually taken internal mental pressure offa Ennis to be associated with a local woman.  Everybody watches and talks in a small town.  Ennis is a paranoid.

4) Finally, I think the scenes with Cassie really did add to tha story.  It really allows the relationship with Alma Jr. to be more fully explored.
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: fishinbuddy on January 22, 2006, 12:41:16 AM
I found the whole Cassie thing mostly pointless and tedious. But there are a couple of points which do emerge from it. One is that Ennis has realized he can't be in any kind of relationship where he already knows he can't give his heart, which he knows belongs only to Jack. I think his last meeting with Jack and his terror at hearing Jack hint at being unfaithful, how torn up he was when Jack even mentioned wanting to know how to quit him, and most of all, hearing the pain in Jack's voice and knowing he was the cause of it (when Jack is talking about being on a short leash. When Jack says, You have no idea how bad it gets, we see Ennis's turned away hat begin to shake. Ennis is trembling because he feels his lover's pain and knows he is the cause), Ennis is bound to keep himself true and only for Jack. And this indicates movement on his part after all this time. He won't date anymore even though he needs a 'beard' more than ever. He will be only for Jack. Finally, some incremental movement, which offers the first hope in years that maybe they WILL have a future together. And then Jack dies.
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: bkm on January 22, 2006, 10:54:33 PM
i think the ennis and cassie see is a parrel to the randall and jack seen. cassie states that girls don't fall in love with fun. i think this is a set up that any relationship between jack and randall is really not going to result in a true and lasting love just as the one between cassie and ennis
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: westexer on January 23, 2006, 12:04:05 PM
i think the ennis and cassie see is a parrel to the randall and jack seen. cassie states that girls don't fall in love with fun. i think this is a set up that any relationship between jack and randall is really not going to result in a true and lasting love just as the one between cassie and ennis

I think that's a really good observation, Friend.  I think the two sets of scenes balance each other and form a pair, just as most everything in the entire movie is paired up that way.
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: phlmale on January 24, 2006, 05:57:04 PM
I really appreciated the expansion of the Cassie character in the screenplay....to see her approach to bring Ennis out of his shell...so similar to Jack on the mountain...and Ennis' dancing early on when he first met Cassie in the bar...gotta love that choreography

Cassie's character also helps to emphasize how much he was withdrawing from life overall....that bus depot scene, alone with the piece of pie, is so moving..and the pain on his face when he sees how hurt she is...

it was also interesting to hear both Alma and Jack question Ennis about not finding someone to marry again..reminder from both sides about his failed life plan.
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: David on January 24, 2006, 09:14:20 PM
it was also interesting to hear both Alma and Jack question Ennis about not finding someone to marry again..reminder from both sides about his failed life plan.

Ouch.
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: troyman on January 26, 2006, 02:21:00 AM
I searched the thread, but didn't see anything about this -- it's technically not a Cassie & Ennis scene, but it's Ennis talking about Cassie.

Did anyone else laugh out loud when he was telling Jack about "putting the blocks" to Cassie?  Right after that, he mentions that "she wants to go to nursing school."

It took me out of the movie for a second, and the friend that was with me leaned over and whispered ("yeah, in Chicago 20 years from now").
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: Ross:Broken on January 26, 2006, 06:41:04 AM
I searched the thread, but didn't see anything about this -- it's technically not a Cassie & Ennis scene, but it's Ennis talking about Cassie.

Did anyone else laugh out loud when he was telling Jack about "putting the blocks" to Cassie?  Right after that, he mentions that "she wants to go to nursing school."

It took me out of the movie for a second, and the friend that was with me leaned over and whispered ("yeah, in Chicago 20 years from now").

Ha ha, I never made that connection.

The part that I find funny about that scene is that he says she wants to go to nursing school "or something."  Nice boyfriend, Ennis.  Obviously, he's been barely paying attention to her.  Of course, it's not so funny when they meet up over that nice piece of pie.
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: angela_toronto on January 26, 2006, 07:37:30 PM
i went for the sixth time today, and once again, more details jump out at me.

when ennis first met cassie, she asks him what he does.  his answer was that today he castrated calves, causing her to (understandably) flinch. 

i wonder if that was his way of subconciously telling her that he was not the man to satisfy her sexually.  he liked her, they probably got on well as friends, but sexually he was not "all there" for her.

also, i think his relationship with cassie was vital to the story.  it demonstrates that he has given up trying to maintain a relationship with a woman; his future would be with jack or to be alone.
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: angela_toronto on January 28, 2006, 12:46:36 PM
i believe that alma jr's line is "you're good enough".
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: David on January 28, 2006, 02:18:52 PM
The part that I find funny about that scene is that he says she wants to go to nursing school "or something."  Nice boyfriend, Ennis.  Obviously, he's been barely paying attention to her.  Of course, it's not so funny when they meet up over that nice piece of pie.

I wonder how many times that piece of pie (or what was left of it) had been pushed around the plate.
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: Ross:Broken on January 28, 2006, 02:23:28 PM
I wonder how many times that piece of pie (or what was left of it) had been pushed around the plate.

It looked like he had been workin' on it since the last fishing trip.
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: peteinportland on January 29, 2006, 05:25:40 PM
I posted this in opening scenes and will toss it in here as well.

I think the dance scene with Cassie is a parallel scene to Jack and Ennis meeting.  Cassie and Jack both introduce themselves first, but with Cassie, Ennis, after a pause after saying Ennis, he remembers to say Del Mar. Ennis follows both Jack and Cassie. As another poster pointed out, when Ennis follows Jack to the bar he is behind him almost trying to mimic his steps (like a dance). Both Cassie and Jack get to know Ennis over a drink in a bar. They talk about their professions and how bad it is (Cassie serving drinks and Jack on BBM the summer before). They both do most of the talking and draw Ennis out by asking him personal questions.

There is a very studied contrast to these scenes as well. With Cassie, the song "It's So Easy to Fall in Love" is playing on the jukebox. Cassie sticks her feet right in Ennis' lap and tells him she wants a foot rub. Cassie gets to dance close to Ennis in a public bar. She can be aggressive and forward where Jack has to be careful and coy. In just minutes after meeting him, she can inhabit Ennis' personal space in public in a way Jack will NEVER be allowed to do. However, Jack does get to light Ennis up in the bar the first time they meet. We get the impression Cassie never does.   

As for the "earlier today I was castrating a calf" and how that fits the parallel between the scenes, I will let someone smarter than me figure that out.
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: Cowboysnkisses on February 01, 2006, 10:08:25 AM

As for the "earlier today I was castrating a calf" and how that fits the parallel between the scenes

Well, Pete, in that bar scene with Ennis and Jack, they're both talking about their childhoods.  Although it doesn't become fully evident until later just how gruesome an experience it was for both, they were both males with yearnings for other males who were shown in no uncertain terms that such feelings were regarded by those around them (including most importantly their fathers) as incompatible with masculinity.  One need only think of the emasculating effect such experience can have on the developing gay male psyche to have a figurative analogy with "castrating calves."
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: spark on February 01, 2006, 03:37:14 PM
Hi all, this is a truly a moment in my life as this is the very first time I post anything anywhere on the net. I've been around this board, practically glued to the forum since the first viewing. It's been great to know that I'm not crazy to continuously go back to see the movie and cry my eyes out, which in fact also happens every time I think of the movie...

Everyone seems to have great insights/analysis to the movie and I know that my reactions are still very emotional but I thought I'd give my thoughts on 'castrating the cow' part, that is, my initial response to the line. I haven't gone as far as to be able to analyze the movie let alone why my life has turned upside down and inside out since watching the movie so please bear with me ^_^

My focus was more on 'earlier today' part than the castrating part to be honest, as in 'I've done that this morning but who knows what I'll be doing tomorrow?', which I thought led into what E says to J in their last scene, 'no one, nowhere' and how much he's been juggling his life trying to see J and simultaneously fulfill his duties as a father. He does seem to have a more stable job than when he was younger (from what he tells J again in the last scene together) in order to provide child support and all but it didn't sound like a permanent thing. As there isn't any other mention of what E does for living since the divorce (apart from the hint that he is working hard and thus cannot see J often enough), I thought this line reflected his conditions of life, and also not having anything stable except J and Alma Jr.

There are many things swarming in my head but I'll stop before I really begin rambling. It took a while to write even this short post and as embarrassed as I am, I thought i'd finally give it a try... I am so glad I found this site and thanks everyone for sharing your thoughts. You certainly have kept me sane and relatively 'stable' for the past few weeks.  ;D
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: peteinportland on February 01, 2006, 03:45:31 PM
Spark, thank you. Good insight into the emphasis on "this morning." It fits in with how Proulx describes Ennis. You come back and see us again now. Posting is such a great emotional release!

Cowboysnkisses, I did pick up on that. I'm still not sure how it might relate back to the bar scene with Jack, but I agree the emasculation reference is a key. And where have you been with your very insightful self?
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: Mr. Wrong on February 01, 2006, 06:10:17 PM
Spark, thank you. Good insight into the emphasis on "this morning." It fits in with how Proulx describes Ennis. You come back and see us again now. Posting is such a great emotional release!

Cowboysnkisses, I did pick up on that. I'm still not sure how it might relate back to the bar scene with Jack, but I agree the emasculation reference is a key. And where have you been with your very insightful self?


Is that last sentence an example of flirting by posting? just asking.  :D
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: Cowboysnkisses on February 01, 2006, 08:51:52 PM
Cowboysnkisses, I did pick up on that. I'm still not sure how it might relate back to the bar scene with Jack, but I agree the emasculation reference is a key. And where have you been with your very insightful self?

Why, thanks, Pete.  I've been here and there.  I haven't had much time to post lately.  How have things been going?  I see another milestone has been passed with 30,000 posts.  That's great.

In the bar scene, both talk about their childhoods.  Ennis relates only the death of his parents and being raised by his brother and sister and then forced out on his own (of course we learn later that there is much more to the story), while Jack actually relates how he could never please his father (and we later find out how much of a bastard his father really was).  Given the importance of the father figure in the development of a healthy male ego, I would see this as evidence of the emasculating influence of both their fathers.
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: peteinportland on February 02, 2006, 01:30:51 AM
Spot on! That's it! *a light bulb goes off in his dim mind* I knew someone would be able to find the link for that statement to the bar scene with Jack and Ennis. Thank you!
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: Chance on February 06, 2006, 09:23:41 AM
Acey, probably months passed between those scenes.

Cassie gets so far with Ennis because Ennis is a lonely, scared man who is probably happy for the company, the attention, and the validation of his masculinity and manhood (remember, Cassie meets Ennis after the Thanksgiving scene when Alma outs him). Plus, in seeing her three scenes again last night, she pursues Ennis in much the same way that Jack does.

Their first meeting is much like Ennis and Jacks. "I'm Cassie Cartwright." "Ennis." Then a pause, and we can hear the line from Jack in our heads. "You're folks stop at Ennis?" With Cassie, after the pause, Ennis adds, "Del Mar." Then Cassie dances with Ennis, although Cassie is doing all the work, just as Jack did most of the dancing around each other on BBM. Cassie makes the first move with an uncomprehending Ennis by putting her feet in his lap. She gets to call him "Dummy" because he is so clueless.

One of the things I find so heartbreaking in his scenes with Cassie (especially as a gay man) is how different Ennis can be with Cassie and not with Jack, the love of his life. He can take Cassie on an outing with his daughters. He can dance with Cassie in the bar and rub her feet. He can have teary public emotional scenes. He can do all those things with this girl he has just met, but never with Jack.

In the last scene with Cassie I feel so much for both of them. She has no idea that he is already taken heart and soul by Jack. And he can't tell her. I really like Cassie and think she would be good for Ennis, except for Jack got there first many years before.


I totally agree. Cassie is voluptuous, come-hither, robust femininity that offers Ennis an opportunity to
develop a relationship and a new life.  He wouldn't dare. He knows inside what he longs for. And it's not
this female - no matter how wonder-filled she is. And this actress does one heck of a job in the short time she's on screen - in showing opportunity passed by - while Ennis longs for his true but secreted life-mate --
Jack Twist.
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: bbbmedia on February 06, 2006, 10:13:58 PM
Saw Brokeback for the third time yesterday. Hated the Cassie scenes more than ever. She is just so intrustive and unnecssary. She slows down the action and is a very heavy handed way for McMurtry and Ossana to make the point that Ennis is a loner. I'd rather eat a pie all by myself than put up with the likes of Cassie. I'll bet I won't be the only one skipping past the Cassie scenes when the DVD comes out.



   
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: Three of Nineteen on February 08, 2006, 05:44:01 AM
I don't feel the Cassie scenes are unnecessary at all.
I think Ennis responded to her advances because of his growing paranoia. In the scene before we are introduced to Cassie, Ennis asks Jack if he thinks people know and how he feels watched. I think when Cassie approaches Ennis, he sees this as an oppotunity to quench the rumors he thinks are making the rounds. However, he later dumps her because he either is too numb after the last scene with Jack at the lake or because he doesn't want to use her like that and end up hurting her like Alma ("I propably wasn't much fun anyways").
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: HerrKaiser on February 08, 2006, 09:02:24 AM
I don't feel the Cassie scenes are unnecessary at all.
I think Ennis responded to her advances because of his growing paranoia. In the scene before we are introduced to Cassie, Ennis asks Jack if he thinks people know and how he feels watched. I think when Cassie approaches Ennis, he sees this as an oppotunity to quench the rumors he thinks are making the rounds. However, he later dumps her because he either is too numb after the last scene with Jack at the lake or because he doesn't want to use her like that and end up hurting her like Alma ("I propably wasn't much fun anyways").

I agree the Cassie scenes are crutial. However, I have a slightly differnt take. By the by, I think the "dumps her" scene is before the last scene at the lake which means that he was already moving closer and closer to a commited gay relationship. in fact his own family and Alma WANTED him to get married again, so he had every opportunity to play it "straight" if he was so inclined.

Back to Cassie scenes in general, I think her character shows how vulnerable a gay man can be when a woman makes approaches to him. I do not think Ennis saw her as a opportunity to squelch fabricated rumors. Rather, he seems "forced" into accepting her advances because he probably fears that his turning away would get the response "what's wrong with you?". Nearly every gay man I have ever known has gone through the fix ups, dating/mating game, office party hook ups with women etc etc and they went along for a while so that they were not wondered about. Close to the same point you made, 3of19, but Ennis' actions were responsive rather than proactive.

then, at some point, he simply stopped because, I am sure, the sex and commitments got too involved, and regardlless of what pop culture says about bisexuality and multiple relationships, they are tough to handle!  ;)

Further, I think Cassie represented the "final chance/opportunity" for Ennis to break away from Jack. Ennis chose Jack. This is in spite of Ennis' speech in their last scene in which he bemoans his life. The opposite behaviors, the contractions, the inner debate, and his difficulty with the struggle for his one true direction all endorse and support the wonderful, horrible life of Ennis Delmar.
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: Three of Nineteen on February 08, 2006, 02:29:51 PM
Yeah, thats propably a better interpretation. Turning her down could definately have stoked the rumors in Ennis mind.
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: fishinbuddy on February 08, 2006, 10:01:50 PM
Quote
I agree the Cassie scenes are crutial. However, I have a slightly differnt take. By the by, I think the "dumps her" scene is before the last scene at the lake which means that he was already moving closer and closer to a commited gay relationship.

Nope, after, and this is key. I think Ennis is filled with guilt over Jack's pain (the revelation at their last meeting was his exposure not only to Jack's possible infidelity but the clear laying out of Jack's pain in the full light of day ("You have no idea how bad it gets", "Sometimes I miss you so much I can't hardly stand it") and his own sense of responsibility for denying Jack his dream, and fear of Jack leaving him, thinking about Jack constantly, "is he in Mexico in another _man's_  arms?"

All in all, I think it was just too much. One only has so much psychic energy and I don't think Ennis could do it all anymore - love Jack, miss Jack, be afraid of exposure, try to keep a demanding person such as Cassie (I mean that in the best way, she is a demand on him for attention, affection, and possibly commitment - not a wallflower this one!) content. It also makes sense that the sexual and emotinoal side of their relationship just rang too hollow for him to be anything but dismayed he wasn't with Jack. You can see it in his face in the diner scene - when she comes up on him, he has been morosely eating, looking like he just came from a funeral. He is so consumed by the situation with Jack he can't handle anything else.
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: peteinportland on February 08, 2006, 10:47:16 PM
Quote
I agree the Cassie scenes are crutial. However, I have a slightly differnt take. By the by, I think the "dumps her" scene is before the last scene at the lake which means that he was already moving closer and closer to a commited gay relationship.

Nope, after, and this is key. I think Ennis is filled with guilt over Jack's pain (the revelation at their last meeting was his exposure not only to Jack's possible infidelity but the clear laying out of Jack's pain in the full light of day ("You have no idea how bad it gets", "Sometimes I miss you so much I can't hardly stand it") and his own sense of responsibility for denying Jack his dream, and fear of Jack leaving him, thinking about Jack constantly, "is he in Mexico in another _man's_  arms?"

All in all, I think it was just too much. One only has so much psychic energy and I don't think Ennis could do it all anymore - love Jack, miss Jack, be afraid of exposure, try to keep a demanding person such as Cassie (I mean that in the best way, she is a demand on him for attention, affection, and possibly commitment - not a wallflower this one!) content. It also makes sense that the sexual and emotinoal side of their relationship just rang too hollow for him to be anything but dismayed he wasn't with Jack. You can see it in his face in the diner scene - when she comes up on him, he has been morosely eating, looking like he just came from a funeral. He is so consumed by the situation with Jack he can't handle anything else.

Very nice FNB. I'll second that.
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: ToolPackinMama on February 09, 2006, 01:07:23 AM

Back to Cassie scenes in general, I think her character shows how vulnerable a gay man can be when a woman makes approaches to him. I do not think Ennis saw her as a opportunity to squelch fabricated rumors. Rather, he seems "forced" into accepting her advances because he probably fears that his turning away would get the response "what's wrong with you?". Nearly every gay man I have ever known has gone through the fix ups, dating/mating game, office party hook ups with women etc etc and they went along for a while so that they were not wondered about. Close to the same point you made, 3of19, but Ennis' actions were responsive rather than proactive.

then, at some point, he simply stopped because, I am sure, the sex and commitments got too involved, and regardlless of what pop culture says about bisexuality and multiple relationships, they are tough to handle!  ;)

Further, I think Cassie represented the "final chance/opportunity" for Ennis to break away from Jack. Ennis chose Jack. This is in spite of Ennis' speech in their last scene in which he bemoans his life. The opposite behaviors, the contractions, the inner debate, and his difficulty with the struggle for his one true direction all endorse and support the wonderful, horrible life of Ennis Delmar.

Well said.  Ditto.
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: sskater on February 12, 2006, 09:59:20 PM
 :) I enjoyed the scenes with Cassie in them. Initaially Alma tries to empathize and understands Ennis' loneliness. I thought she was feeling guilt about the divorce after the thanksgiving dinner but Ennis poured salt into the wound which she quickly wanted to address- by saying to Ennis in so many words, I ain't stupid E and then kinda pushed the knife in and turned for allo fher worth. This was the last time Ennis and Alama were in the same room. (the future wedding excepted).
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: lynn on February 14, 2006, 08:59:37 AM
A new interview with LARRY McMURTRY and DIANA OSSANA: http://www.cinemalogue.com/2006/02/14/brokeback-interview/

Their comments on the Cassie scenes:

MW: For what purpose did you expand the role of Cassie (Linda Cardellini), and what part did she play in Ennis’ relationship to the women in his life?

DO: Cassie somewhat exemplifies Ennis’s continual denial of his emotional makeup, and his attempts to have what he believed was a “normal” relationship with a woman. After his and Jack’s final confrontation about Mexico, Ennis realizes that it is Jack he truly loves, and he simply cannot continue in his attempts at a relationship with Cassie, thus her confronting him in the diner about his whereabouts and her frustrations and painful realization that she’s not “the one.”
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: lauren on February 14, 2006, 09:11:24 AM
A new interview with LARRY McMURTRY and DIANA OSSANA: http://www.cinemalogue.com/2006/02/14/brokeback-interview/

Their comments on the Cassie scenes:

MW: For what purpose did you expand the role of Cassie (Linda Cardellini), and what part did she play in Ennis’ relationship to the women in his life?

DO: Cassie somewhat exemplifies Ennis’s continual denial of his emotional makeup, and his attempts to have what he believed was a “normal” relationship with a woman. After his and Jack’s final confrontation about Mexico, Ennis realizes that it is Jack he truly loves, and he simply cannot continue in his attempts at a relationship with Cassie, thus her confronting him in the diner about his whereabouts and her frustrations and painful realization that she’s not “the one.”


Thank you Lynn. I was just about to post this. This is what I thought was occuring in this scene, and although it casts things in a sad light (Ennis never had the chance to voice this to Jack, though I'm sure Jack knew Ennis loved him), it's good to know that this was Ennis' realization at this point and that he could very well have been thinking about talking with Jack on their next trip and making a positive change for the two of them. I was very glad to read this.
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: lauren on February 14, 2006, 09:14:52 AM
A new interview with LARRY McMURTRY and DIANA OSSANA: http://www.cinemalogue.com/2006/02/14/brokeback-interview/

Their comments on the Cassie scenes:

MW: For what purpose did you expand the role of Cassie (Linda Cardellini), and what part did she play in Ennis’ relationship to the women in his life?

DO: Cassie somewhat exemplifies Ennis’s continual denial of his emotional makeup, and his attempts to have what he believed was a “normal” relationship with a woman. After his and Jack’s final confrontation about Mexico, Ennis realizes that it is Jack he truly loves, and he simply cannot continue in his attempts at a relationship with Cassie, thus her confronting him in the diner about his whereabouts and her frustrations and painful realization that she’s not “the one.”


Thank you Lynn. I was just about to post this. This is what I thought was occuring in this scene, and although it casts things in a sad light (Ennis never had the chance to voice this to Jack, though I'm sure Jack knew Ennis loved him), it's good to know that this was Ennis' realization at this point and that he could very well have been thinking about talking with Jack on their next trip and making a positive change for the two of them. I was very glad to read this.


yikes, typo. should be "occurring.."
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: RonitR on February 16, 2006, 12:42:38 AM
And another thing:

A new interview with LARRY McMURTRY and DIANA OSSANA: http://www.cinemalogue.com/2006/02/14/brokeback-interview/

Their comments on the Cassie scenes:

MW: For what purpose did you expand the role of Cassie (Linda Cardellini), and what part did she play in Ennis’ relationship to the women in his life?

DO: Cassie somewhat exemplifies Ennis’s continual denial of his emotional makeup, and his attempts to have what he believed was a “normal” relationship with a woman. After his and Jack’s final confrontation about Mexico, Ennis realizes that it is Jack he truly loves, and he simply cannot continue in his attempts at a relationship with Cassie, thus her confronting him in the diner about his whereabouts and her frustrations and painful realization that she’s not “the one.”


I know its kinda dumb to disagree with the actual SCRIPT-WRITER, but I have never shied away from being called "dumb" before  ;), so here goes:

I didn't see the Ennis - Cassie thing, as some posters here did, as a sign that Ennis was finally able to accept that its Jack he actually loves, or was on the verge  of agreeing to a life with Jack.
To me, the Cassie thing contributed to Ennis's tightening knot of despair. He was unable to lead a "normal" life with Cassie ( a young, pretty, and quite possibly a kindhearted girl) , AS WELL AS  unable  to chose life with Jack, so he was stuck. Poor,lonely, and spiraling downward.
If anything - he looked depressed, to me.

I  believe that Ennis finally came to fully realize how much he actually loved Jack, only after Jack had died, which, to me, solidifies the tragedy of this film.
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: doggedstrength on February 16, 2006, 01:42:17 AM
And another thing:

A new interview with LARRY McMURTRY and DIANA OSSANA: http://www.cinemalogue.com/2006/02/14/brokeback-interview/

Their comments on the Cassie scenes:

MW: For what purpose did you expand the role of Cassie (Linda Cardellini), and what part did she play in Ennis’ relationship to the women in his life?

DO: Cassie somewhat exemplifies Ennis’s continual denial of his emotional makeup, and his attempts to have what he believed was a “normal” relationship with a woman. After his and Jack’s final confrontation about Mexico, Ennis realizes that it is Jack he truly loves, and he simply cannot continue in his attempts at a relationship with Cassie, thus her confronting him in the diner about his whereabouts and her frustrations and painful realization that she’s not “the one.”


I know its kinda dumb to disagree with the actual SCRIPT-WRITER, but I have never shied away from being called "dumb" before  ;), so here goes:

I didn't see the Ennis - Cassie thing, as some posters here did, as a sign that Ennis was finally able to accept that its Jack he actually loves, or was on the verge  of agreeing to a life with Jack.
To me, the Cassie thing contributed to Ennis's tightening knot of despair. He was unable to lead a "normal" life with Cassie ( a young, pretty, and quite possibly a kindhearted girl) , AS WELL AS  unable  to chose life with Jack, so he was stuck. Poor,lonely, and spiraling downward.
If anything - he looked depressed, to me.

I  believe that Ennis finally came to fully realize how much he actually loved Jack, only after Jack had died, which, to me, solidifies the tragedy of this film.


i agree with this post; i, too, am reluctant to disagree with the screenwriter, but ennis isn't able to fully commit to anyone, ensuring his isolation and loneliness.  we tend to think that passion wouldn't seek out and overwhelm a taciturn, self-sufficient man like ennis; but that's precisely what it does, which is what makes the story so brilliant.  you could say that jack's death, perversely, jolts ennis back to life -- painful as life is; by visiting jack's parents, agreeing to attend his daughter's wedding as well as making certain that his daughter's fiance loves her, ennis at least begins to acknowledge that he's not an island.  "jack, i swear . . . " could mean, partly, "jack, i swear, if i'd been as fully alive at our last meeting as i am now, i'd never have let you go."  i don't think the matter is quite as cut and dried as ossana seems to be stating it:   "normal" love vs. loving jack.  and by seeking "normal" love ennis is "denying" his "emotional makeup" -- as though a person's emotional makeup can be reduced to a stance, "gay"(?).  emotional makeup is fluid.  ennis isn't really saying a categorical "no" to any option in life; but he can't fully say "yes" to anyone either.  his emotional makeup, like most people's, spans a continuum.  jack drew ennis into the deeper end of the pool, as it were, than cassie did -- or, to acknowledge the accurate portion of ossana's point, than cassie likely ever could have.  but ennis' tragedy is that even jack's love wasn't enough to pull him out of his tormented self:  a neglected child grown up to be a reined-in, sometimes violent, man.  that's the gnawing source of ennis' regret.  not even jack's love made him live as fully as he might have.  and it's not until  jack dies that he realizes that going on with jack, committing to jack, could have pulled him through and moved him up into more love, more light, more hope.  but his fear won out.  fear beat love.  and "loving" cassie instead of jack would not have healed ennis' ingrown unease, which he realizes.  that's why he can't respond to cassie, seems to be actually cruel to her, over his unfinished slice of apple pie -- what an apt symbol.
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: freshcutgrass on February 16, 2006, 05:14:53 PM
Ok...after seeing the film a zillion times (I actually have a DVD copy), I have discovered this to be THE pivital scene in the movie, and where "my" true meaning and lesson to the story originates (although I realize there are many things to glean from the film).  I would never had gotten it in the first few viewings, as there are too many other elements to tear your attention away, and too much emotional shit to clear out of your head first.   (well, for me anyway, as this movie hits people in different places at different times)

I'm refering to the pie-eating scene of course.

Before I get into it, I have to preface that I really don't feel too sorry for Cassie.  Not that I don't feel for her pain, as she was genuinely hurt.  But the fact that she didn't see the plain-as-day warning signs that Ennis was one pile of damaged goods from start to finish...she let herself get set up when any sane person would have see a million red flags before letting themselves get that involved.  It's not like she was vulnerable and taken advantage of....she walked into it, even when the door kept slamming her in the face...at some time you gotta take the hint.


Now....Before Cassie enters the picture, there's Ennis, sitting there picking away at the pie.  He's not just the usual sullen Ennis we always know....it's far worse than that.  I don't know how much time has passed between then and he and Jack's last parting.  And we know that was basically the "breakup".  He's endured all he can...it's obvious he has hit the bottom of the barrel of dispair.  He's spent all his life fighting these demons, and you can only internalize it so long.

When Cassie sits down and confronts him, he barely achknowledges her presence...his same zombie-like state remains unchanged.  We know Ennis has hit rock bottom, because he does not act like Ennis, who would never initiate unkindness or disprespect to a women (it's always yes ma'am, no ma'am)...especially to one he knows he has treated badly. 

But what does he say to her...."well good for you"...an uncalled for and VERY hurtful comment, given the conversation.  His torment has ripped any of compassion left out of his soul.

When Cassie delivers her final words to him and leaves the diner, he looks out into space....he has finally been delivered the fatal blow.  He realizes all the running and hiding is over...there's nowhere left to run or hide....he just can't fight any more.  He finally has to face his demons. 

The next scene shows him walking out of the post office...there's a bounce in his step...he's not the same dejected soul we saw earlier.  He looks happier and more contented than we have ever seen him.

Why would this be?  Well, because he has faced his fears and decided to do something about it.  This time, it is HE that sends the post card to Jack, with the hopefull message about Nov 7, the same kind of message Jack used to send to him all those years that must have excited him upon getting, pretending their last sorrow-filled parting didn't happen.

He probably went to the post office every day, anticipating Jacks "YOU BET" reply, knowing very well in his heart that Jack would always be waiting for him to come round.  It's the one thing he knows with certainty in his life.

But the bounce in his step comes to an abrupt hault.  We didn't need to see the post card...we already knew.



It's too late.


I immedietly flash back to where Jack is racing down the highway singing with glee after getting news of Ennis's divorce, in anticipation of the wonderful future he imagines with Ennis, only to return down the same road rejected and heart-broken a few hours later.



Just as he thought he had licked his demons, Ennis realizes that was nothing compared to the pain he must now endure.

But rather than return to the empty shell of a person he once was, he begins the long road to recovery.  He faces Jack's wife and the details of his death...tries to honour his life...faces Jack's parents...doesn't hide from the truth he and Jack's mother share...lets himself feel his emotions when confronted with the shirts...respects, rather than lashes out at jack's cruel father ...

...And decides to make the best of what he does have left in his life, the other person in his life who has always reached out for his love, but was usually disappointed...his eldest daughter.  You saw the way she asked him to come to the wedding, and reacting in a way that she already knew the answer...it hurt her to ask, because she already anticipated it to be no, and initially was right.  But Ennis saw what was at stake this time, the happiest day in his daughter's life, and he wanted to be part of it.

The look of surprise and joy that came over her face let you know a new bond has been created.







Anyway....that's what I have managed to glean from it...maybe I'm just crazy.  But I knew the first time I saw the film in the theatre, that I felt something very uplifting, but was unable to put my finger on it at the time....my emotions were pretty much shredded.  Only after seeing it more, and going through various stages of dealing with the whole thing in various stages, did it become clear.

I got the message that if we let things prevent us from facing our real feelings, we will simply run out of time.  Because life is soooooo ridiculously short.

Ennis may never experience what he had with Jack ever agian (or maybe he will), but I'm sure he is going to find happiness wherever he can with the rest of his life.






 




 
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: 909dot on February 17, 2006, 01:00:26 PM
And another thing:

A new interview with LARRY McMURTRY and DIANA OSSANA: http://www.cinemalogue.com/2006/02/14/brokeback-interview/

Their comments on the Cassie scenes:

MW: For what purpose did you expand the role of Cassie (Linda Cardellini), and what part did she play in Ennis? relationship to the women in his life?

DO: Cassie somewhat exemplifies Ennis?s continual denial of his emotional makeup, and his attempts to have what he believed was a ?normal? relationship with a woman. After his and Jack?s final confrontation about Mexico, Ennis realizes that it is Jack he truly loves, and he simply cannot continue in his attempts at a relationship with Cassie, thus her confronting him in the diner about his whereabouts and her frustrations and painful realization that she?s not ?the one.?


I know its kinda dumb to disagree with the actual SCRIPT-WRITER, but I have never shied away from being called "dumb" before  ;), so here goes:

I didn't see the Ennis - Cassie thing, as some posters here did, as a sign that Ennis was finally able to accept that its Jack he actually loves, or was on the verge  of agreeing to a life with Jack.
To me, the Cassie thing contributed to Ennis's tightening knot of despair. He was unable to lead a "normal" life with Cassie ( a young, pretty, and quite possibly a kindhearted girl) , AS WELL AS  unable  to chose life with Jack, so he was stuck. Poor,lonely, and spiraling downward.
If anything - he looked depressed, to me.

I  believe that Ennis finally came to fully realize how much he actually loved Jack, only after Jack had died, which, to me, solidifies the tragedy of this film.


i agree with this post; i, too, am reluctant to disagree with the screenwriter, but ennis isn't able to fully commit to anyone, ensuring his isolation and loneliness.  we tend to think that passion wouldn't seek out and overwhelm a taciturn, self-sufficient man like ennis; but that's precisely what it does, which is what makes the story so brilliant.  you could say that jack's death, perversely, jolts ennis back to life -- painful as life is; by visiting jack's parents, agreeing to attend his daughter's wedding as well as making certain that his daughter's fiance loves her, ennis at least begins to acknowledge that he's not an island.  "jack, i swear . . . " could mean, partly, "jack, i swear, if i'd been as fully alive at our last meeting as i am now, i'd never have let you go."  i don't think the matter is quite as cut and dried as ossana seems to be stating it:   "normal" love vs. loving jack.  and by seeking "normal" love ennis is "denying" his "emotional makeup" -- as though a person's emotional makeup can be reduced to a stance, "gay"(?).  emotional makeup is fluid.  ennis isn't really saying a categorical "no" to any option in life; but he can't fully say "yes" to anyone either.  his emotional makeup, like most people's, spans a continuum.  jack drew ennis into the deeper end of the pool, as it were, than cassie did -- or, to acknowledge the accurate portion of ossana's point, than cassie likely ever could have.  but ennis' tragedy is that even jack's love wasn't enough to pull him out of his tormented self:  a neglected child grown up to be a reined-in, sometimes violent, man.  that's the gnawing source of ennis' regret.  not even jack's love made him live as fully as he might have.  and it's not until  jack dies that he realizes that going on with jack, committing to jack, could have pulled him through and moved him up into more love, more light, more hope.  but his fear won out.  fear beat love.  and "loving" cassie instead of jack would not have healed ennis' ingrown unease, which he realizes.  that's why he can't respond to cassie, seems to be actually cruel to her, over his unfinished slice of apple pie -- what an apt symbol.

I don't know...I think Cassie's effect on Ennis is much stronger than just "continuing the knot of despair"...I think the writers put her in there to make a definite point, not to bang us over the head with the same... I happen to agree with the writers...Ennis could never be happy with this vivacious beautiful girl because he was in love with Jack, I think his "I'm sorry" to her speaks volumes...and as far as his emotional make up, lets not forget what the movie is about, its a love story between two men...Ive read strange reviewers and postings that say oh, its not a gay love story...well, yes it is. and I think to gloss over that fact is to miss the point of even Annie writing the story. What ever you want to call it, Ennis was in love with Jack...they are both men...in todays lexicon thats a gay relationship...to refer to his "emotional makeup as a stance,"gay?" is like saying it was a choice he made, and we all know thats not true...he was indeed saying a categorical no to Cassie in the dinner. Ennis said yes to Jack, in his own way, but not the way Jack wanted it to be said,... tragedy indeed.
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: valkyrie911 on February 17, 2006, 03:36:57 PM
I'm refering to the pie-eating scene of course.

Now....Before Cassie enters the picture, there's Ennis, sitting there picking away at the pie.  He's not just the usual sullen Ennis we always know....it's far worse than that.  I don't know how much time has passed between then and he and Jack's last parting.  And we know that was basically the "breakup".  He's endured all he can...it's obvious he has hit the bottom of the barrel of dispair.  He's spent all his life fighting these demons, and you can only internalize it so long.
 

Thank YOU! Finally someone agrees with me that it was a breakup. I mean really, Ennis said " I can't stand it anymore', Jake has his little goodbye dream sequence-what about the screne did not say goodbye?

I think what the Cassie character did was give Ennis a kick in the ass that he really needed to see when she said "Girls don't fall in love with fun, Ennis Del Mar" that maybe boys don't necessarily fall in love with t & a either. I liked Cassie. She was a little naive and needy and wanted someone who was just out of her reach. Shoot I could be Cassie. If it weren't for her walking in with some cowboy she seemed to be "settling" with instead of Ennis whom she loved, Ennis would have stayed right where he was eating that lousy pie and he would have never even of had the comfort of knowing that he and Jack were truly meant for each other, even if destiny had denied them final hapiness.
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: Rob. on February 17, 2006, 04:20:13 PM
  Freshcutgrass.....after seeing it multiple times, that's pretty much my conclusion as well!

  Now, if only Ennis couldn't have come to that conclusion BEFORE the last trip  ;)

  But then, we all wouldn't be having these wonderful conversations would we!

  Rob
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: downloaded1 on February 17, 2006, 08:31:06 PM
Was Cassies's male friend Carl, from the Village People?????

                    ;D
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: freshcutgrass on February 17, 2006, 08:36:29 PM
Now, as for the "breakup"....I wouldn't call it that in the usual "official" sense, as I doubt they would sit around discussing it like metrosexuals.  I get the impression Ennis probably just got in his truck and left without much to say, right after the collapse we witnessed.

And it was quite a fight...some pretty final things were said on both sides.  I wouldn't call it an official breakup, and I don't see them saying to each other that they are going to stop seeing each other...but it is clear the relationship has changed...and not for the good.  We can pretty much see that written on Jack's face as he watches Ennis's truck drive away, right after his flashback to when it was "perfect".

As for their corresponding...I don't think there was any after that last meeting.  I think Ennis's note to him regarding Nov 7 was the only correspondence they had since their last meeting.  And since that never got to him, he was not corresponding with anyone.  I think he contacted Jack about November to show he still wanted to see him, by using their last "intended" meeting, which was November, to show it.  Like I said, Ennis is not the type to articulate his feelings...he uses gestures like that instead.

And I think it was a long time since the last meeting.  It was either early or late winter....there was snow on the mountain...they were wearing parkas..." gonna snow tonight fer sure".

The clincher is revealed later, when Ennis is at jack's parent's house.  The father reveals Jack's plans to move up to their place with the "other guy", who has now replaced Ennis.  Jack would not do that if he didn't feel it was over with Ennis.  He might have screwed around on Ennis to fullfill his sexual needs...but would never make those "nesting" plans.

And Jack's father said it was "this spring" that jack mentioned about moving up with the "other" guy.

That would have placed it not long after their last meeting.  I think it's clear that in Jack's mind that it was over, or he never would have made such plans.

That's why I believe it was a defacto breakup.  I just don't think it was ever official, in the sense that they discussed it like most people do.  Jack just figured they would never see each other again, which is why he moved on with his life with someone else.


But Ennis never knew that until the father revealed it. That's another heartbreaking part...learning that Jack had finally given up on him, and he had a new "Ennis" in his life, and never knowing that Ennis had a change of heart.  You saw the look on his face when the father recounted Jack's plans about "licking the ranch into shape".  He had an almost proud smile on his face.  It turned to stone when the father mentioned the "other" guy.
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: doggedstrength on February 18, 2006, 05:27:09 AM
And another thing:

A new interview with LARRY McMURTRY and DIANA OSSANA: http://www.cinemalogue.com/2006/02/14/brokeback-interview/

Their comments on the Cassie scenes:

MW: For what purpose did you expand the role of Cassie (Linda Cardellini), and what part did she play in Ennis? relationship to the women in his life?

DO: Cassie somewhat exemplifies Ennis?s continual denial of his emotional makeup, and his attempts to have what he believed was a ?normal? relationship with a woman. After his and Jack?s final confrontation about Mexico, Ennis realizes that it is Jack he truly loves, and he simply cannot continue in his attempts at a relationship with Cassie, thus her confronting him in the diner about his whereabouts and her frustrations and painful realization that she?s not ?the one.?


I know its kinda dumb to disagree with the actual SCRIPT-WRITER, but I have never shied away from being called "dumb" before  ;), so here goes:

I didn't see the Ennis - Cassie thing, as some posters here did, as a sign that Ennis was finally able to accept that its Jack he actually loves, or was on the verge  of agreeing to a life with Jack.
To me, the Cassie thing contributed to Ennis's tightening knot of despair. He was unable to lead a "normal" life with Cassie ( a young, pretty, and quite possibly a kindhearted girl) , AS WELL AS  unable  to chose life with Jack, so he was stuck. Poor,lonely, and spiraling downward.
If anything - he looked depressed, to me.

I  believe that Ennis finally came to fully realize how much he actually loved Jack, only after Jack had died, which, to me, solidifies the tragedy of this film.


i agree with this post; i, too, am reluctant to disagree with the screenwriter, but ennis isn't able to fully commit to anyone, ensuring his isolation and loneliness.  we tend to think that passion wouldn't seek out and overwhelm a taciturn, self-sufficient man like ennis; but that's precisely what it does, which is what makes the story so brilliant.  you could say that jack's death, perversely, jolts ennis back to life -- painful as life is; by visiting jack's parents, agreeing to attend his daughter's wedding as well as making certain that his daughter's fiance loves her, ennis at least begins to acknowledge that he's not an island.  "jack, i swear . . . " could mean, partly, "jack, i swear, if i'd been as fully alive at our last meeting as i am now, i'd never have let you go."  i don't think the matter is quite as cut and dried as ossana seems to be stating it:   "normal" love vs. loving jack.  and by seeking "normal" love ennis is "denying" his "emotional makeup" -- as though a person's emotional makeup can be reduced to a stance, "gay"(?).  emotional makeup is fluid.  ennis isn't really saying a categorical "no" to any option in life; but he can't fully say "yes" to anyone either.  his emotional makeup, like most people's, spans a continuum.  jack drew ennis into the deeper end of the pool, as it were, than cassie did -- or, to acknowledge the accurate portion of ossana's point, than cassie likely ever could have.  but ennis' tragedy is that even jack's love wasn't enough to pull him out of his tormented self:  a neglected child grown up to be a reined-in, sometimes violent, man.  that's the gnawing source of ennis' regret.  not even jack's love made him live as fully as he might have.  and it's not until  jack dies that he realizes that going on with jack, committing to jack, could have pulled him through and moved him up into more love, more light, more hope.  but his fear won out.  fear beat love.  and "loving" cassie instead of jack would not have healed ennis' ingrown unease, which he realizes.  that's why he can't respond to cassie, seems to be actually cruel to her, over his unfinished slice of apple pie -- what an apt symbol.

I don't know...I think Cassie's effect on Ennis is much stronger than just "continuing the knot of despair"...I think the writers put her in there to make a definite point, not to bang us over the head with the same... I happen to agree with the writers...Ennis could never be happy with this vivacious beautiful girl because he was in love with Jack, I think his "I'm sorry" to her speaks volumes...and as far as his emotional make up, lets not forget what the movie is about, its a love story between two men...Ive read strange reviewers and postings that say oh, its not a gay love story...well, yes it is. and I think to gloss over that fact is to miss the point of even Annie writing the story. What ever you want to call it, Ennis was in love with Jack...they are both men...in todays lexicon thats a gay relationship...to refer to his "emotional makeup as a stance,"gay?" is like saying it was a choice he made, and we all know thats not true...he was indeed saying a categorical no to Cassie in the dinner. Ennis said yes to Jack, in his own way, but not the way Jack wanted it to be said,... tragedy indeed.

i gotta push back.  indeed ennis is gay and indeed he loves jack.  both those facts are in conflict, not equally blissful -- they don't equal happiness piled on top of happiness.  i wouldn't question the wonder and beauty of a man loving a man, because i have loved a man, more than one.  but ennis definitely does struggle with such loving and, i agree, he nonetheless keeps on loving jack.  no argument there.  my point is that given ennis' reluctant acceptance of both facts about himself -- "i'm gay and i love this particular man" -- the combination still wasn't enough to make him commit to living his life with jack.  that was my point, and this is ennis' enduring tragedy.  if he'd commited to jack, jack would still be alive.  i agree that the cassie scene shows conclusively that he couldn't have committed any longer to a woman.  but he still couldn't fully commit to jack, either.  to repeat:  it's only jack's death the jolts ennis into seeing what he had -- and has now lost.  and -- i'm again drawing on my own experience -- one of the cussed truths of life is that we never know what we have until we've lost it.  this movie says that more forcefully, without any watering down, than any american movie i can think of.  the fact that the lovers are men makes the movie extraordinary.
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: valkyrie911 on February 18, 2006, 09:12:03 AM
Now, as for the "breakup"....I wouldn't call it that in the usual "official" sense, as I doubt they would sit around discussing it like metrosexuals.  I get the impression Ennis probably just got in his truck and left without much to say, right after the collapse we witnessed.

And it was quite a fight...some pretty final things were said on both sides.  I wouldn't call it an official breakup, and I don't see them saying to each other that they are going to stop seeing each other...but it is clear the relationship has changed...and not for the good.  We can pretty much see that written on Jack's face as he watches Ennis's truck drive away, right after his flashback to when it was "perfect".

As for their corresponding...I don't think there was any after that last meeting.  I think Ennis's note to him regarding Nov 7 was the only correspondence they had since their last meeting.  And since that never got to him, he was not corresponding with anyone.  I think he contacted Jack about November to show he still wanted to see him, by using their last "intended" meeting, which was November, to show it.  Like I said, Ennis is not the type to articulate his feelings...he uses gestures like that instead.

And I think it was a long time since the last meeting.  It was either early or late winter....there was snow on the mountain...they were wearing parkas..." gonna snow tonight fer sure".

The clincher is revealed later, when Ennis is at jack's parent's house.  The father reveals Jack's plans to move up to their place with the "other guy", who has now replaced Ennis.  Jack would not do that if he didn't feel it was over with Ennis.  He might have screwed around on Ennis to fullfill his sexual needs...but would never make those "nesting" plans.

And Jack's father said it was "this spring" that jack mentioned about moving up with the "other" guy.

That would have placed it not long after their last meeting.  I think it's clear that in Jack's mind that it was over, or he never would have made such plans.

That's why I believe it was a defacto breakup.  I just don't think it was ever official, in the sense that they discussed it like most people do.  Jack just figured they would never see each other again, which is why he moved on with his life with someone else.


But Ennis never knew that until the father revealed it. That's another heartbreaking part...learning that Jack had finally given up on him, and he had a new "Ennis" in his life, and never knowing that Ennis had a change of heart.  You saw the look on his face when the father recounted Jack's plans about "licking the ranch into shape".  He had an almost proud smile on his face.  It turned to stone when the father mentioned the "other" guy.


EXACTLY!I do think the difference is that without the Cassie scene Ennis may have never bothered to send that postcard about November 7 to Jack anyway, and neither of them would have made contact, at least for a while.
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: ingmarnicebbmt on February 18, 2006, 11:01:17 AM
Freshcutgrass and valkyrie911, I feel relieved that you are sharing my opinion about the last postcard. It has been stated by me before (and objected to by other posters!) that this was in fact the first postcard he ever wrote to Jack.
Before it was always Jack who wrote, it seemed to me.
But now it was different: Ennis felt bad (after the "breakup" scene, after "LEARNING" from Cassie that noone falls in love with fun, but instead with him ENNIS as a person - so did Jack, and I think he wanted to apologize somehow that he couldn't make it for the August meeting and show his joyful anticipation for Nov): three good reasons to take the initiative to write.

But I disagree with you both that someone new (Randall? who knows?) had entered Jacks's life and replaced Ennis. I do believe that Jack was very, very sad after their last meeting and the dozy embrace memory, devastated even, but I think that John Twist's story about the new guy was just made up in order to humiliate Ennis. Or Jack mentioned it casually to his Dad, without giving any details.

IMHO, Ennis was the love of Jack's life. If only their last meeting had turned out differently, in a slightly more optimistic manner, well then they could both still be alive and thriving. It wasn't meant to be.
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: valkyrie911 on February 18, 2006, 02:56:45 PM
Freshcutgrass and valkyrie911, I feel relieved that you are sharing my opinion about the last postcard. It has been stated by me before (and objected to by other posters!) that this was in fact the first postcard he ever wrote to Jack.
Before it was always Jack who wrote, it seemed to me.
But now it was different: Ennis felt bad (after the "breakup" scene, after "LEARNING" from Cassie that noone falls in love with fun, but instead with him ENNIS as a person - so did Jack, and I think he wanted to apologize somehow that he couldn't make it for the August meeting and show his joyful anticipation for Nov): three good reasons to take the initiative to write.

But I disagree with you both that someone new (Randall? who knows?) had entered Jacks's life and replaced Ennis. I do believe that Jack was very, very sad after their last meeting and the dozy embrace memory, devastated even, but I think that John Twist's story about the new guy was just made up in order to humiliate Ennis. Or Jack mentioned it casually to his Dad, without giving any details.

IMHO, Ennis was the love of Jack's life. If only their last meeting had turned out differently, in a slightly more optimistic manner, well then they could both still be alive and thriving. It wasn't meant to be.

I don't think that Jack "moved on" at all. At least not in any real sense of what that would mean to anyone really in love. I think that Jack probably made a lot of small talk when he was at home with his parents, since that was the kind of guy he was, and he probably mentioned he had a neighbor who was getting divorced..etc...etc... 

I just hate thinking about this whole part, the what if? I mean, can we even imagine an Ennis who doesn't shuffle along like he's carrying the weight of Brokeback Mountain on his shoulders year after year. I wish Alma Jr. told her father it was okay sooner because I don't think she had any problem with who her father was.
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: freshcutgrass on February 18, 2006, 03:05:38 PM
"I think that John Twist's story about the new guy was just made up in order to humiliate Ennis. "


I think that's far-fetched.  You are giving far too much sophistication to a simple rural guy.  I don't think there is anything about him other than what you see...an ignorant, simple, selfish, bitter man who treated his son with contempt in life...and in death.  There's no way he "made up" that story...it would be too coincidental with the reality...his "made-up" story involving the next door ranch hand...and there actually being one?  No way.





"Or Jack mentioned it casually to his Dad, without giving any details."

Oh...I agree it was mentioned, otherwise he wouldn't be telling the story.  And of course he wouldn't have give any "details"....they had a very cold relationship...he's not going to sit down and talk about his feelings towards Ennis or Randall.  Jack was always serious about this scenario, as it would have been his only realistic solution to living out his life the way he wanted to....it's not like moving to San Fran or Grennwich Village was something a person of Jack's life would even know about, lest think of.  He would have put it to his father in whatever way he could to facilitate that.

How much Jack's father suspected Jack's being gay is uncertain, but it certainly wasn't from any heart-to-heart conversations between them.  And I doubt the mother would have said anything either.  In fact, while it's obvious the mother is "aware", I'm not totally convinced it was from direct conversations about it with her son...maybe it was...maybe it was being a "mother".  Who knows.

While I'm sure no-one could replace Ennis in Jack's mind, he still had the kind of will to carry on ond be happy....The love may not be the excact same thing, but we can all love again, and it was obvious Jack wanted to love and be loved on his terms.  Jack would have realized that after the last meeting with Ennis, he could go on torturing himself over something he could never have, or finally move on....Jack after all, was always a doer.  I'm amazed he wasted 20 years trying to convince Ennis to come on board...he finally gave in to the fact it was never going to work.

And that would be most people's reaction anyway...we've all had the "big love", but how many of us would be willing to carry the torch forever for the one we love, but will never have?  At some point, we deal and move on.
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: valkyrie911 on February 18, 2006, 03:13:43 PM
And that would be most people's reaction anyway...we've all had the "big love", but how many of us would be willing to carry the torch forever for the one we love, but will never have?  At some point, we deal and move on.

Actually, we all haven't. Those few times a year might have well been worth a lifetime of nothing much.
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: freshcutgrass on February 18, 2006, 03:59:36 PM
"Actually, we all haven't."


Well, you'll have to stop taking me so literally...yes, I'm fully aware that every person who has ever lived on planet earth has not been through that.  But it's a scenario not unfamilar to people in general.






"Those few times a year might have well been worth a lifetime of nothing much."

I don't see that as a viable alternative to most people...and most importantly here...to Jack.  It's obvious he dealt with that question after the last meeting, and given the details, chose to not sacrifice his happiness for the rest of his life.  Jack was a person who pursued this dream even at the age of 19, which I thought revealed a very extraoridinary, strong-willed person, given the age, time and place.  I think that grew in him as he approached middle age, which is why he was able to make such tough deceisions.

This is not to say he did not save a special place in his heart for what him and Ennis had.  The two are not mutually exclusive.  Many people have partners die and feel they can never have it again...they still manage to find love again, without having to give up the love they had with the other person.  And it's not like the new love is meaningless and hollow either.
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: All4one on February 18, 2006, 05:41:29 PM
"
It's obvious he dealt with that question after the last meeting, and given the details, chose to not sacrifice his happiness for the rest of his life. 

It's not obvious to me.
What is obvious, though, is that Jack died without having the chance to find that happiness elsewhere. So it was Ennis - only and forever- for Jack.
(And I  choose to believe it was Jack - only and forever - for Ennis.

Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: freshcutgrass on February 18, 2006, 06:37:52 PM
"It's not obvious to me. "


Well, since so much of the movie is ambiguous, we all fill in the blanks with what we want to have happened.  Whatever makes you happy.

I take it as pretty obvious, because Jack's idea of his ideal life, was to settle up on the parent's ranch with a partner.  For 20 years, that dream included Ennis.  Since he decided to do this with Randall, it's obvious he gave up on Ennis, proving he had no intentions of living out the rest of his days as a spinster, with nothing but the bitter-sweet memories of Ennis to keep him company. 








"What is obvious, though, is that Jack died without having the chance to find that happiness elsewhere. So it was Ennis - only and forever- for Jack."


Well, obviously when your dead, that's it.  Who knows what happiness he aquired before his death.  But the point was what decisions he had made, not whether or not he was able to carrry them out...he didn't know he was going to be killed until the moment it happened.


Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: All4one on February 18, 2006, 07:13:29 PM
Thank you for that. I shortened my post - the movie evokes so many feelings I find I need to be brief - and one of the words I deleted was  one you just used: ambiguous. I need the ambiguity.

I did feel the words of Jack's father like a physical blow. But I quickly created my own acceptable explanation for Jack to have said anything about bringing the other fellow there. I decided that over the years Jack's mother had held on to her own dream, one that had Jack come back home. When it became apparent that he and Ennis Del Mar wouldn't be there, he tossed off ( talk is cheap ) another idea. How long could he keep saying the same thing to the Twists?

 "sigh" ...Lose your dreams and you will lose your mind. Ain't life unkind ?
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: RonitR on February 19, 2006, 01:42:09 AM

While I'm sure no-one could replace Ennis in Jack's mind, he still had the kind of will to carry on and be happy....The love may not be the exact same thing, but we can all love again, and it was obvious Jack wanted to love and be loved on his terms.  Jack would have realized that after the last meeting with Ennis, he could go on torturing himself over something he could never have, or finally move on....Jack after all, was always a doer.  I'm amazed he wasted 20 years trying to convince Ennis to come on board...he finally gave in to the fact it was never going to work.

And that would be most people's reaction anyway...we've all had the "big love", but how many of us would be willing to carry the torch forever for the one we love, but will never have?  At some point, we deal and move on.
.

Actually, I have to disagree.

I agree that Jack was a doer, but, you have to take into account the context.
1980, rural America, probably very little (if any) opportunity to meet other (gay) men, and also- it was dangerous to pick up men (I am not an American, but have heard of the mathew Shepard hate-crime).
Jack is living in a conservative society, where being labeled "queer" in an insult, potentially a dangerous one.
He has no education that we know  of, or money of his own.
He can't just up and relocate to SF .

Also - Jack UNDERSTANDS Ennis's fear. He is willing to "risk it", but he doesn't tell Ennis that he is exaggerating, or that two guys setting house together is perfectly normal and nobody would raise an eyebrow.

Add to that Jack and Ennis's very real love, spanning 20 years.

It would be very difficult for Jack to leave Ennis, as long as they both love each other so much, both because of the very real emotional connection, and because replacing Ennis - technically - would be very difficult.

(If this was NOT the case - Jack could have left Ennis at any point in their 20 years).

The situation may have been very different today, both because Ennis's "fear" of being found out would have been a lot less understandable, and because Jack would have had a lot of other (safe) options of meeting other men. Of course, that's just my 2 cents worth..

I guess its true, that each of us sees this movie through the "lenses" of their personal experience.
For me - This is also my personal experience (as a straight woman). I "walked away" (twice) from a relationship with a VERY Ennis-like man, whom I loved like crazy, only to come back running as soon as my own personal Ennis was finally able to "see the light" and give us a chance ;)

I COULD have found a much "easier" relationship, who would have given me a lot less grief, BUT - I couldn't find anyone else I loved so much, so, when push came to shove - I kept coming back.

I think Jack would have, too, if Ennis would just have been willing to "see the light"...again - maybe that's just the romantic in me...
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: peteinportland on February 19, 2006, 02:33:36 AM

Also - Jack UNDERSTANDS Ennis's fear. He is willing to "risk it", but he doesn't tell Ennis that he is exaggerating, or that two guys setting house together is perfectly normal and nobody would raise an eyebrow.


I have been meaning to write a post on this topic for a long time and have yet to see someone else make the connection. IMO, Jack might be a little less willing to risk it than most of us think, but that is another post for another thread.

So, back to Ennis and Cassie.
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: freshcutgrass on February 19, 2006, 10:38:27 AM
"I agree that Jack was a doer, but, you have to take into account the context. 1980, rural America, probably very little (if any) opportunity to meet other (gay) men"



What are you talking about...look what he did in 1963 (and may have done even before that).  We know he was cruising guys in the 4 years between 1963 and 1967.  We know he went to Mexico for gay whores.  We know he was cruised by Randall.  We know something happened with Randall, as It's quite obvious that Jack made plans to move up to the parent's farm.  Jack was someone who agonized between Ennis's reluctance to commit to the kind of life Jack would be happy with, and his sex-drive, which obviously needed to be satisfied.  I'm sure more happened in terms of Jack's sexual conquests that is shown in the film.

Gay men have always risked detection to fullfill their needs.









"Jack UNDERSTANDS Ennis's fear. He is willing to "risk it", but he doesn't tell Ennis that he is exaggerating, or that two guys setting house together is perfectly normal and nobody would raise an eyebrow."


Jack spent 20 years working that on Ennis....and it didn't work.  Jack was pretty gregarious and charming, he knew how to work people....that's why he was able to do what he did....cruise the guys just so....charm his future wife...be such a good salesman...how to put his father-in-law in his place...and he knew how to work Ennis (very easy and suggestive...he know's if he pushed Ennis or gave ultimatums, he would have lost Ennis).  I think after their last meeting, he decided to go with Randall...it was not his 20 year spotty romance with Ennis...but someone who would allow him to have the kind of lifestyle he really wanted.  He made a tough choice.  Cause that's what Jack does.








"So, back to Ennis and Cassie."


Yea....it's tough to stay on topic, as you need to relate to so many other parts of the film, to make the connection to another.

So, my origional point was that the scene with Cassie in the diner was the point when Ennis came to a realization about Jack, but Jack had already came to another realization by that point...and then he died before Ennis was able to make whatever decaration may have been in his mind.  Ennis finds this all out later.  Very tragic.

Too late

20 years is too long to hide your fears...by the time you figure it out, too much damage has been done to you and everyone else, and your new feelings are unlikely to be realized.




Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: RonitR on February 20, 2006, 12:21:30 AM
I don't know, Freshcutgrass .

I really think this is open to interpretation.

But, if it was so easy for Jack to find someone else, why stay for so many years with Laureen, with whom he had a marriage that could be done over the phone, instead of finding some other man and setting up house?
Why initiate the reunion with Ennis, 4 years after Brokeback?

Personally, I really don't think either Jack or Ennis found the other easily-replaceable.

I believe Jack's "wish I knew how to quit you" is sincere. Even if he wanted to - he didn't know how. Even if he had set up house with randall, it would still be Ennis he loved .

OK, I'll shut up in this thread unless I actually have something to say about Ennis and Cassie.. ;)
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: exlibris on February 20, 2006, 02:00:36 PM
Reading all of your amazing analyses of Brokeback - film/screenplay/story - has been wonderful, and helped me gain many insights.
I agree that Cassie represents another attempt by Ennis to lead a "normal" life - both in keeping with his own shames and as a protection against suspicions.
However, one thing that confuses me, and about which I'm hoping at least one of you will have theories, is the seeming happiness and relative openness Ennis displays around her. I agree he's uncomfortable at first, but in the scene with Junior he doesn't sit with Junior - he allows Cassie to pull him away to dance and doesn't seem unhappy by it. I've only seen the movie twice so perhaps I'm remembering wrong, but in my recollection, he laughs/smiles and seems fairly relaxed (for him) around her. Maybe I'm being incredibly dim, but is this to highlight that while he could live a pleasant life without Jack, his emotions will never run so deeply for anyone else it being seemingly easy to just drop out from her life, whereas the thought of losing Jack torments him? I guess my puzzlement stems from how distant Ennis was with alma (sorry, my a key's broken so I can't post it in caps) once Jack reappeared and how he seemed more superficially "open" with Cassie, even including her in the special time he shared with his daughter. His introducing her to Junior - bringing her along during one of his presumably monthly visits with Junior didn't quite sit right for me. Since C.'s not in the story, and the screenplay doesn't elucidate this for me I thought I'd bring my questions to the experts! any thoughts?
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: valkyrie911 on February 20, 2006, 04:43:52 PM
he seemed more superficially "open" with Cassie, even including her in the special time he shared with his daughter. His introducing her to Junior - bringing her along during one of his presumably monthly visits with Junior didn't quite sit right for me. Since C.'s not in the story, and the screenplay doesn't elucidate this for me I thought I'd bring my questions to the experts! any thoughts?

I had to point out that I don't really think that this was anything special since Cassie actually worked at the bar and there probably weren't a lot of places for them to go on their visits. A better question would be where is Jenny all the time and when Junior refers to the baby she must be talking about a second baby since so much time has past since the Thanksgiving scene right? 

Is Cassie a female Jack? She's very optimistic and forward and seems to mirror a lot of his qualities.  Maybe thats why her character fits into Ennis' life so easily.

Ok I know this is back to the whole Jack and Ennis splitting and not having any other options thing but that's just not so. I remember there used to be a thing about red ties. Men would wear red ties way back in like the 40's or something as a signal to other men. I think back in Oscar Wilde's day it was a flower. Whatever. It wasn't like they were just stuck with each other because they couldn't find any other gay men within 1400 miles and 20 years. That's just kinda silly.
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: freshcutgrass on February 20, 2006, 07:37:58 PM
"But, if it was so easy for Jack to find someone else, why stay for so many years with Laureen, with whom he had a marriage that could be done over the phone, instead of finding some other man and setting up house?
Why initiate the reunion with Ennis, 4 years after Brokeback?  Personally, I really don't think either Jack or Ennis found the other easily-replaceable."


Oh....I agree with you whole-heartitly

Jack wanted his life with his true love, which was Ennis.  And he spent 4 years trying to live a "normal" life, and for some reason, decided to look Ennis up to give it a go.

And Ennis obliged.  But unfortunetely, Ennis did not go for the whole nine-yards at first....so Jack was patient, bringing it up every time they met.  But after 20 years, he was no farther ahead than he was at the begining...only now you are a lot older...you don't have forever.  Everybody has their limit...and I think this was Jack's.  I think he had realized he would have to compromise his ultimate dream...find another lover to live the kind of day-to-day life he wanted, or continue with a more and more distant and less frequent rendevous with Ennis....( "you used to come away easy...now it's like seeing the pope" ).

You want neither, but have to make a choice....and I think Jack decided on the former....and I think it was incredibly difficult.









"he allows Cassie to pull him away to dance and doesn't seem unhappy by it."


Ah...but that's just it....Cassie drags him into everything....Ennis is always the reluctant "go-along".  I see Cassie treating him in the scene with the daughter, the same way she treated him when they met...she totally controls everything, and can't seem to see Ennis is giving 0% enthusiasm.  I know girls are attracted to the "strong silent type", but hey...sometimes you gotta wake up and see it for what it really is.

Cassie must be awful needy to not see it, and Ennis is just happy to have the diversion, to maybe take away his pain over dealing with who he really is.

I see their relationship as a sort of symbiotic, mutual crutch.
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: exlibris on February 20, 2006, 08:09:03 PM

"he allows Cassie to pull him away to dance and doesn't seem unhappy by it."


Ah...but that's just it....Cassie drags him into everything....Ennis is always the reluctant "go-along".  I see Cassie treating him in the scene with the daughter, the same way she treated him when they met...she totally controls everything, and can't seem to see Ennis is giving 0% enthusiasm.  I know girls are attracted to the "strong silent type", but hey...sometimes you gotta wake up and see it for what it really is.

Cassie must be awful needy to not see it, and Ennis is just happy to have the diversion, to maybe take away his pain over dealing with who he really is.

I see their relationship as a sort of symbiotic, mutual crutch.

Thanks. Makes sense, and I also went to see the movie again tonight. I did note the differences in how Ennis interacted with Jack and with Cassie, as you wrote. Cassie may be lighthearted, but the playful Ennis that emerged around Jack (at least as shown in their early years together) doesn't show his face around Cassie. I still don't entirely understand what the screenwriters and Lee intended to show when Cassie accompanies Ennis and Junior on their day together, unless to parallel that while Ennis could and did introduce his girls to Jack, they could not spend time all together. Still, the scene jarred for me.
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: freshcutgrass on February 20, 2006, 11:00:09 PM
Oh...that reminds me...the scene when Ennis & Cassie first meet distracted me a bit from the movie, because I was thinking about the obvious error....the song playing loudly in the background they are dancing to is "Devil's Right Hand" (Steve Earl) was not released until Copperhead Road...in 1988.  I haven't played that cd for years, but I remember buying it, and it sure wasn't the 70's.

Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: peteinportland on February 26, 2006, 09:57:35 PM
Sometimes I wonder if Ennis ever runs across Cassie and settles down with her just to ease the lonliness in his life. I don't see him ever settling down with a guy! Would it be so bad if he did marry Cassie in the years after Jack's death? She is good enough.
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: romeshvr on February 26, 2006, 10:09:59 PM
Interesting you should raise that question PETERINPORTLAND.  It occurred to me too.  At least in the movie I thought maybe they would eventually work things out.  The Cassie affair didn't really end so it might start back up again sometime in the future.  However, it occurred to me now that knowing the way Ennis felt about Jack, the intensity with which he loved him, I'm not sure if Ennis will feel any romantic love to wards anyone else.  Remember how the reunion kiss went :)
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: valkyrie911 on February 26, 2006, 10:16:21 PM
It would be nice to think something good would would happen to Ennis.  How would he explain those shirts though??

Somehow, I'd like to believe that the Cassie character from the movie would understand about the shirts.  Wouldn't that be nice.
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: bluehorse on February 26, 2006, 10:46:51 PM
I don't know, I always think of Ennis more like Heathcliff  of Wuthering Heights at the end, that he will be forever communing with Jack's spirit. . .
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: valkyrie911 on February 26, 2006, 11:04:37 PM
"It's a rough journey, and a sad heart to travel it....We've braved its ghosts often together, and dared each other to stand among the graves and ask them to come...But Heathcliff, if I dare you now, will you venture? If you do, I'll keep you. I'll not lie there by myself: they may bury me twelve feet deep, and throw the church down over me, but I won't rest till you are with me. I never will!"

-Emily Bronte
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: romeshvr on February 27, 2006, 03:45:20 AM
VALKYRIE911 and BLUEHORSE, good posts.  That is what I got from the last scene in the movie.  Ennis will forever commune with Jack's spirit and I can be pretty sure Jack's spirit will be around him always.  You bet!
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: valkyrie911 on February 27, 2006, 07:37:24 AM
On my "happy" days I like to believe that the open space between what Ennis knows is that Jack is dead, gone from this earth, and what he tries to believe is that he is still with him and they will somewhere-somehow be together again in a place where they don't have to hide from the world.  I don't like the idea of it being that he "knows" Jack had given up on him and tries to believe it would have worked out if Jack had lived.
For that to work for me Jack couldn't have been in love with Ennis at the end, at least not like he was, and that, like Heathcliff, leaves Ennis alone on the greiving plains not quite sane and always looking for his Jack.
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: peteinportland on February 28, 2006, 01:24:53 AM
Supergirl put these lyrics up on the Score thread. This is the song that was playing when Cassie confronts Ennis at the bus station (while he is eating pie). This is the first scene after their last scene together, and it spookily mirrors much of how Ennis must be feeling. I think it is an interesting choice by Ang, Kathy Nelson, and Gus and gives us some insight to Ang's direction at this point of the film.

(BTW, if you want to see other very spooky lyrics look up the words to Sweet Malisa in the Score thread. This is the song Ennis plays on the jukebox before he and Cassie dance.)

I'm Always on a Mountian when I Fall - Merle Haggard


Most of my life, I've almost been a winner.
I've come so close but never really won.
Just when I thought I finally made it,
I found myself back where I started from.
I hate to say I'm giving up but I believe,
Losin's just become a way of life for me.
Losin' wouldn't be so bad at all,
But I'm always on a mountain when I fall.

Then you came along and had me, had me believin',
For once in my life my luck had finally changed.
And now you say you're gonna leave me,
Seems everything I do winds up the same.

I hate to say I'm giving up but I believe,
Losin's just become a way of life for me.
Losin' wouldn't be so bad at all,
But I'm always on a mountain when I fall.

Losin' wouldn't be so bad at all,
But I'm always on a mountain when I fall.
Most of my life, I've almost been a winner.
I've come so close but never really won.
Just when I thought I finally made it,
I found myself back where I started from.
I hate to say I'm giving up but I believe,
Losin's just become a way of life for me.
Losin' wouldn't be so bad at all,
But I'm always on a mountain when I fall.

Then you came along and had me, had me believin',
For once in my life my luck had finally changed.
And now you say you're gonna leave me,
Seems everything I do winds up the same.

I hate to say I'm giving up but I believe,
Losin's just become a way of life for me.
Losin' wouldn't be so bad at all,
But I'm always on a mountain when I fall.

Losin' wouldn't be so bad at all,
But I'm always on a mountain when I fall.

cross posted to Last Scene Together
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: valkyrie911 on February 28, 2006, 07:57:51 AM
fitting song for Cassie
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: Goldfish on February 28, 2006, 04:38:02 PM
On my "happy" days I like to believe that the open space between what Ennis knows is that Jack is dead, gone from this earth, and what he tries to believe is that he is still with him and they will somewhere-somehow be together again in a place where they don't have to hide from the world.  I don't like the idea of it being that he "knows" Jack had given up on him and tries to believe it would have worked out if Jack had lived.
For that to work for me Jack couldn't have been in love with Ennis at the end, at least not like he was, and that, like Heathcliff, leaves Ennis alone on the greiving plains not quite sane and always looking for his Jack.


I totally agree with your "happy" days interpretation about the "open space between what Ennis knows......etc". Because when Ennis said "Jack I swear", though he was tearful he looked "positive" and "determined" and "certain (about Jack's love and his love for Jack)" to me. I can't quite bear the other thought that's been mentioned.
Am I posting this in the wrong thread?
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: valkyrie911 on February 28, 2006, 04:42:12 PM
On my "happy" days I like to believe that the open space between what Ennis knows is that Jack is dead, gone from this earth, and what he tries to believe is that he is still with him and they will somewhere-somehow be together again in a place where they don't have to hide from the world.  I don't like the idea of it being that he "knows" Jack had given up on him and tries to believe it would have worked out if Jack had lived.
For that to work for me Jack couldn't have been in love with Ennis at the end, at least not like he was, and that, like Heathcliff, leaves Ennis alone on the greiving plains not quite sane and always looking for his Jack.


I totally agree with your "happy" days interpretation about the "open space between what Ennis knows......etc". Because when Ennis said "Jack I swear", though he was tearful he looked "positive" and "determined" and "certain (about Jack's love and his love for Jack)" to me. I can't quite bear the other thought that's been mentioned.
Am I posting this in the wrong thread?

I forgot where we got into this Wuthering Heights thing but it really is an I Swear post probably not a Cassie post.
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: Poohbunn on March 04, 2006, 05:54:47 PM
Quote
  A point well made: He was ALONE in that diner, pushing around some half-eaten apple pie, and dying inside. The message was that he was emotionally unavailable to anyone other that Jack.
Quote

That's how I saw it too.  Cassie really liked him, and it seemed (from the conversation at the lakeside) that he cared for her too.  But he didn't feel capable of loving anyone else.  She was so nice to him, but perhaps her enthusiasm and cheerfulness reminded him too much of Jack in the early days.
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: strazeme on March 06, 2006, 08:02:49 AM
When Cassie says "I don't get you", she's right on two levels.  She doesn't get (understand) Ennis, and she doesn't get (to possess) him either.
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: HazelEyedRaven on March 11, 2006, 09:16:07 PM
At first, I didn't care for Cassie, either.  She seemed out of place and instrusive.  She's not named and barely mentioned in the book except the 'puttin' the blocks to a woman' reference. 

But I think Dianna and Larry put her in to illustrate how Ennis couldn't move on, as Alma and the girls had suggested when he was 'trying not to be the sad daddy' at Thanksgiving.  She's not like Alma at all.  She out-going, decorative and someone to be with.  I think he's trying to move on from Alma and trying to do what he's suppose to do:  be with a woman. 

But Cassi also shows how lovable Ennis is.  I like the way she's draws him out a little.  He looks up from under his hat at her.  It's as if she's saying, "I know you're in there somewhere.  I see you."  But sadly, he can't fully reveal himself to her nor give his heart to her because he knows it is somewhere else.  With Jack. 
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: peteinportland on March 12, 2006, 05:47:02 AM
At first, I didn't care for Cassie, either.  She seemed out of place and instrusive.  She's not named and barely mentioned in the book except the 'puttin' the blocks to a woman' reference. 

But I think Dianna and Larry put her in to illustrate how Ennis couldn't move on, as Alma and the girls had suggested when he was 'trying not to be the sad daddy' at Thanksgiving.  She's not like Alma at all.  She out-going, decorative and someone to be with.  I think he's trying to move on from Alma and trying to do what he's suppose to do:  be with a woman. 

But Cassi also shows how lovable Ennis is.  I like the way she's draws him out a little.  He looks up from under his hat at her.  It's as if she's saying, "I know you're in there somewhere.  I see you."  But sadly, he can't fully reveal himself to her nor give his heart to her because he knows it is somewhere else.  With Jack. 

Diana said they put her in there to help the viewer see that Ennis comes to a realization that Jack is the only one for him (although for me, the Cassie scenes did not overly illuminate that).

Pete
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: mwp2paris on March 12, 2006, 08:46:48 AM
I'm still deep in the emotions of the previous scene and that heartbreaking look in Jack's eyes as Ennis drives off...we know it is the last time but he, of course, doesn't...perhaps some fear is there that it is but then we cut to that scene of Ennis in the diner, eating a piece of pie by himself and it maybe the loneliest scene ever...his solitary misery just radiates from the screen.

That look and that tear from Cassie...her heart so broken and she just can't understand what she did other than love him...

such a sad and telling scene.
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: HazelEyedRaven on March 12, 2006, 12:42:12 PM
I'm still deep in the emotions of the previous scene and that heartbreaking look in Jack's eyes as Ennis drives off...we know it is the last time but he, of course, doesn't...perhaps some fear is there that it is but then we cut to that scene of Ennis in the diner, eating a piece of pie by himself and it maybe the loneliest scene every...his solitary misery just radiates from the screen.

That look and that tear from Cassie...her heart so broken and she just can't understand what she did other than love him...

such a sad and telling scene.

I guess Dianna and Larry acheived their point.  "Got the message in any case."
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: starlight on March 13, 2006, 01:27:07 PM
Yes, and my heartbreak comes when Cassie asks Ennis where he's been, and as he looks at his plate of food, he looks so forlorn, and answers his sad " here and there".....he actually looks depressed, as if his last scene with Jack is still playing over and over in his brain, and it is in ours, the viewers. And remember, too, Ennis's last words to Jack were "You've made me like this; I'm nothing...." As Cassie looks at Ennis, he looks as if he has become nothing......my heart aches for Ennis and Cassie.
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: David G on March 13, 2006, 01:36:53 PM
Yes, and my heartbreak comes when Cassie asks Ennis where he's been, and as he looks at his plate of food, he looks so forlorn, and answers his sad " here and there".....he actually looks depressed, as if his last scene with Jack is still playing over and over in his brain, and it is in ours, the viewers. And remember, too, Ennis's last words to Jack were "You've made me like this; I'm nothing...." As Cassie looks at Ennis, he looks as if he has become nothing......my heart aches for Ennis and Cassie.

He pretty much told off Jack and he deeply regrets it. He did the same thing when they came down from Brokeback because he only knows how to push people who love him away. (He almost does it with Alma Jr.)

Act in haste, repent in leisure.
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: HazelEyedRaven on March 14, 2006, 12:48:18 AM
Yes, and my heartbreak comes when Cassie asks Ennis where he's been, and as he looks at his plate of food, he looks so forlorn, and answers his sad " here and there".....he actually looks depressed, as if his last scene with Jack is still playing over and over in his brain, and it is in ours, the viewers. And remember, too, Ennis's last words to Jack were "You've made me like this; I'm nothing...." As Cassie looks at Ennis, he looks as if he has become nothing......my heart aches for Ennis and Cassie.

He pretty much told off Jack and he deeply regrets it. He did the same thing when they came down from Brokeback because he only knows how to push people who love him away. (He almost does it with Alma Jr.)

Act in haste, repent in leisure.

It's all so sad and hopeful at the same time.  It's sad that Cassie got caught up in something she couldn't do anything about but Ennis letting her go shows he's making way for Jack.  Remember how Jack comforts him when he's breaking down and bearing his soul to Jack, "It's alright, it's alright.  You're okay."  But then sad again because that's the last time Ennis sees Jack, but he just doesn't know it yet. 

Such a mixture of emotion.  That's why I love this movie.  Nothing is so simple.  All layered and complex.  Much like life.  There is no easy answer.
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: starlight on March 17, 2006, 08:48:03 AM
Yes, multi-layered and complex, just like life! There's never an easy answer, if there's an answer at all: poor Cassie: she's found a man, Carl, who "talks" but she really loved Ennis.  Cassie, Lureen, Alma: the women who suffer in the wake of two men whose love for one another unmanagable......Cassie has tears in her eyes because she can't understand why Ennis disappeared from her life.....
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: bbmx4 on March 17, 2006, 09:13:04 AM
I think this is a rather clicheed view which Brokeback Mountain doesn't really promote, fortunately: men act out, women suffer. Because let's take a look at them, did they really suffer (maybe with exception of alma, who even chose to divorce because of Ennis' affair with another man), that would implay deep emotional attachment, love, and I don't think it was given with those women (I mean, Cassie!?, Lureen saw something else in Ennis and if Alma's love was so strong, and thus forgiving she wouldn't have divorced but she did and lived happily - or even more happily - ever after with another man). The ones who suffered the most are Jack and Ennis themselves because their relationship was the most important thing in their lives, more important than life itself maybe...
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: HazelEyedRaven on March 17, 2006, 09:53:47 PM
bbmx4-I think the reason why the movie appeals to so many is that everyone in the movie is suffering under the weight of not having what they really desire.  But I do absolutely agree that Ennis and Jack suffer the most because they are the only ones in all the relationships where their love for the other is reciprocated.  Everyone else's unrequited.  But even though Ennis and Jack love each other, there are other obstacles in their way.  That's the saddest of all the relationships.  They have the love but can't fully experience or live it. 

The women have the lives but not the love and they suffer, too, in their own ways as a result.

Cassie is drawn to Ennis because he's so closed off.  He's a hurt soul that is really quite tender, loving and thoughtful.  He's like this wounded little puppy that just wants someone to love without continuing to get hurt, abandoned or be put in danger.  This is probably what Jack falls in love with.  The short story makes a reference to Jack loving the little runt of the litter (referring to the herding dogs).  In the movie, he takes care of the little lambs.  Anyway, I think Cassie got a little glimpse of this but couldn't get more than that because his heart just wasn't there.  It was with Jack but she didn't know that.  That's why she's so hurt.  To her, it was JUST her.  She didn't know there was someone else.   And as such, it might seem to her that SHE was the problem and internalizes it.  I think that is why he says, "I'm sorry.  Probably wasn't much fun anyways, was I?"  To try to alleviate her pain, as though to say, "It's not you." 

Before Jack, I suppose Alma and Ennis might have just trolled along in life. He would have just settled and assumed that this is what love consisted of.  But that all changed after BBM, which is where Ennis really connected on a deep level with someone else.  He never had that with Alma before or after.  She went onto to someone safer who would never hurt her but may not have necessarily loved as much.  There's something really lovable about Ennis.  But Ennis' heart and soul belonged to Jack and she knew it. 

Lureen seemed so perplexed at Jack's distance but didn't seem particularly bothered by it.  She buried herself in her career.  They never did recapture that first spark that they had (or at least she thought she had).  She probably just played it off as the usual fading that happens in marriage.  She struck me as someone who wasn't a quitter or would admit all was not perfect.  I don't think she's as devastated as Alma.  I think in the end she seemed regretful of what else she could have had instead of being 2nd best (which she a place she is unaccustomed to).

Nobody got what they wanted.  The suffering that happens to everyone is what is so universal to us all. 

Anyway, just my two cents. 
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: obiphil on March 20, 2006, 02:20:30 AM
Hey guys, am a newbie. So be real gentle with my awkwardness for my low pain threshold.

So glad I found this place. BBM changes my life in more ways than one. It still speaks volumes to me each and every day. I have thoroughly enjoyed ALL the threads that have been posted. You guys are awesome with your intimate and profound understanding of both the short story and the movie. I used to think I know both inside out but after reading what's on this site, I said gee, look how much I missed. Meeting up with you guys is like returning to the mother ship :)

Anyway, about the Cassie episode, I do find it functional for the simple reason that it's a good way to show there's STILL no one else for Ennis but Jack EVEN AFTER ALMOST 20 YRS. Ennis alienation from Alma could be ailibied by the fact that his infatuation and passion for Jack is still relatively new and fresh. So it takes a Cassie who walks into Ennis life much later on when his liaison with Jack has gone on for more a decade to underpin that fact that what Ennis has with Jack is for life. No one else but Jack is ever gonna come close. Both Alma and Cassie are required to complete this picture.

Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: stacp on March 20, 2006, 09:07:57 PM
Hey guys, am a newbie. So be real gentle with my awkwardness for my low pain threshold.

So glad I found this place. BBM changes my life in more ways than one. It still speaks volumes to me each and every day. I have thoroughly enjoyed ALL the threads that have been posted. You guys are awesome with your intimate and profound understanding of both the short story and the movie. I used to think I know both inside out but after reading what's on this site, I said gee, look how much I missed. Meeting up with you guys is like returning to the mother ship :)

Anyway, about the Cassie episode, I do find it functional for the simple reason that it's a good way to show there's STILL no one else for Ennis but Jack EVEN AFTER ALMOST 20 YRS. Ennis alienation from Alma could be ailibied by the fact that his infatuation and passion for Jack is still relatively new and fresh. So it takes a Cassie who walks into Ennis life much later on when his liaison with Jack has gone on for more a decade to underpin that fact that what Ennis has with Jack is for life. No one else but Jack is ever gonna come close. Both Alma and Cassie are required to complete this picture.



Welcome, obiphil!  This site is wonderful . . . it's good to know that there are other brokeaholics out there, isn't it?  Great post.  I agree with everything you said.  I really think you nailed the reason why Cassie was part of this movie (other than to give the heter men out there some more T & A shots of Cassie in those Daisy Dukes).
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: obiphil on March 21, 2006, 05:32:11 AM
Hey stacp, thanks for making me feel so welcomed. Can't begin to tell how fabulous it is to find many out there love BBM with as much passion as I do. Looking forward to reading your posts.
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: bbmx4 on March 21, 2006, 06:37:59 AM
Just found this thread again (still a newbie and quite overwhelmed by the many posts on this site *g*), and also noticed a typo in my post "Lureen saw something else in Ennis" (meaning Jack instead of Ennis, of course)...
Thanks for your insights, HazelEyedRaven.

Quote
bbmx4-I think the reason why the movie appeals to so many is that everyone in the movie is suffering under the weight of not having what they really desire.  But I do absolutely agree that Ennis and Jack suffer the most because they are the only ones in all the relationships where their love for the other is reciprocated. Everyone else's unrequited.  But even though Ennis and Jack love each other, there are other obstacles in their way.  That's the saddest of all the relationships.  They have the love but can't fully experience or live it.

I will go further and argue that Jack-Lureen and Ennis-Alma weren't relationships based on true feelings (at least not love in the true sense of the word; Lureen "instumentalizd" Jack, Alma Ennis, too, though maybe less so, and Cassie, that wasn't even a story) but rather on societal norms. Marry a woman, have a child, or go out with women (Cassie,..) was the thing you were expected to do, the relationships deemed healthy and worthy by society. And Jack and Ennis did what all young people try to do to fit in, or maybe at first they thought they'd gotten over a brief and rather incidental summer tryst, were busy anyway with all the new things in their young lives, marriage, children, etc., till it gradually dawned on them that what they had on Brokeback mountain had been something bigger all the time...

Quote
Cassie is drawn to Ennis because he's so closed off.  He's a hurt soul that is really quite tender, loving and thoughtful.  He's like this wounded little puppy that just wants someone to love without continuing to get hurt, abandoned or be put in danger.  This is probably what Jack falls in love with.  The short story makes a reference to Jack loving the little runt of the litter (referring to the herding dogs).  In the movie, he takes care of the little lambs.  Anyway, I think Cassie got a little glimpse of this but couldn't get more than that because his heart just wasn't there.  It was with Jack but she didn't know that.  That's why she's so hurt.  To her, it was JUST her.  She didn't know there was someone else.   And as such, it might seem to her that SHE was the problem and internalizes it.  I think that is why he says, "I'm sorry.  Probably wasn't much fun anyways, was I?"  To try to alleviate her pain, as though to say, "It's not you."

Hm, I was of the opinion that Cassie didn't invest much - how could she, she didn't even know Ennis -, next day she was dating another man already. (A different thing is Alma, though she too moves on and doesn't seem that sad about it.)

Quote
Before Jack, I suppose Alma and Ennis might have just trolled along in life. He would have just settled and assumed that this is what love consisted of.  But that all changed after BBM, which is where Ennis really connected on a deep level with someone else.  He never had that with Alma before or after.

Alma had been there first, but it needed Jack to show Ennis what true love and passion for another human being really meant...

Quote
Lureen seemed so perplexed at Jack's distance but didn't seem particularly bothered by it.  She buried herself in her career.  They never did recapture that first spark that they had (or at least she thought she had).  She probably just played it off as the usual fading that happens in marriage.  She struck me as someone who wasn't a quitter or would admit all was not perfect.  I don't think she's as devastated as Alma.

Jack's marriage even more "fake" than Ennis' marriage with Alma. They'd gotten estranged from each other, because their lives (just as Ennis' and Alma's, too) had been built on something that gradually turned out to be a lie, and neither Jack nor Lureen really cared about that. But how different from that was Jack's and Ennis' relationship, they clung to each other despite all odds and it being agony for both for such a long time...
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: HazelEyedRaven on March 21, 2006, 01:43:39 PM

Quote
Cassie is drawn to Ennis because he's so closed off.  He's a hurt soul that is really quite tender, loving and thoughtful.  He's like this wounded little puppy that just wants someone to love without continuing to get hurt, abandoned or be put in danger.  This is probably what Jack falls in love with.  The short story makes a reference to Jack loving the little runt of the litter (referring to the herding dogs).  In the movie, he takes care of the little lambs.  Anyway, I think Cassie got a little glimpse of this but couldn't get more than that because his heart just wasn't there.  It was with Jack but she didn't know that.  That's why she's so hurt.  To her, it was JUST her.  She didn't know there was someone else.   And as such, it might seem to her that SHE was the problem and internalizes it.  I think that is why he says, "I'm sorry.  Probably wasn't much fun anyways, was I?"  To try to alleviate her pain, as though to say, "It's not you."

Hm, I was of the opinion that Cassie didn't invest much - how could she, she didn't even know Ennis -, next day she was dating another man already. (A different thing is Alma, though she too moves on and doesn't seem that sad about it.)


The movie's timeline is difficult to follow so it's hard to say how much she's invested.  I didn't get a good sense of how long Ennis and Cassie were together and how much time passed from Ennis' return from his last camping trip to when he runs into Cassie at the diner.  I assumed there had been some time between the return and the diner because he's not wearing the same clothing.  But I think there had to be some time because she does seem to be invested enough to indicate that she has fallen in love with him (not because he's fun.)  It seems enough time has passed because Ennis failed to respond to her notes and as such, she moved on.

There's another thread out there that talks about Jack falling in love with Ennis for similar reasons (he's not FUN, so that's not it).  I think Cassie and Jack both fall in love with Ennis for similar reasons but she only gets a glimpse of him because he is already committed to Jack only.  He's in love with Jack, not Cassie.

It's so good to hear other people's perceptions and interpretations of this wonderful movie.  These discussion provide more and more layers of meaning and understanding.  Thanks for your response.
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: Poohbunn on March 23, 2006, 07:34:11 PM
I really liked Cassie. She tried to draw Ennis out of his shell.  If only he'd held onto her for a little longer.  She seems to be the kind of woman who would understand about Jack.  What I wish most for Ennis is that he finds someone he can cry in front of.  I hope he doesn't wall himself up in his private hell of regret and loss.  Cassie seemed more sincere and understanding than Alma or Lureen.  Alma, Jr. looks like she's growing up that way too.
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: JHL11 on March 26, 2006, 03:03:49 PM
For the longest time amd over many viewings, I agreed with those here who say the film could have done without the Cassie scenes.

I've since changed my mind about that just as I have with other initial reactions I had to other scenes and then those changed, too.

I agree with whoever posted that it is in the Cassie scenes, particularly in the pie eating one where Ledger's acting is at it's most powerful. Based upon that alone, one could forgive the existence of the Cassie scenes. In terms of the story, all we needed to know was that their were potential mates for Ennis, other than Jack.

In the film, I now realize why they have been so expanded: Ennis is in the closet. (hello! and duh.)

Linda Cardellini is so great with the material she has here.  The only line of dialog I disagree with is, "Ennis, girls don't fall in love with fun!" Oh yes we do, even if, in some instances, the "falling in love"  lasts only as long as a one night stand.
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: IMJackNasty on March 26, 2006, 03:21:18 PM

Diana said they put her in there to help the viewer see that Ennis comes to a realization that Jack is the only one for him (although for me, the Cassie scenes did not overly illuminate that).

Pete

Oh....it did for me after a few trips. You realize that Ennis doesn't give her much thought when he's telling jack about her when he's not sure about her plans about being a nurse. You would know that if you truely loved and cared for that person. In the diner scene....he's not all to upset to have lost her.....because I think Ennis is realizing that he can only love Jack which makes the scene at the post office and the phone scene with Lureen that much more powerful.

In the end...Ennis had three people who loved him. Jack loved Ennis with his whole being...and did unconditionally for 20 years. Alma still loved him at the Thanksgiving scene...and is probably only with Monroe for security (and Monroe really is in love with Alma...as by his reaction to the broken jars caused by alma, jr) and Cassie loved him as well.
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: Ellen (tellyouwhat) on March 26, 2006, 10:50:57 PM
Hi all, I have been thinking a lot about Cassie and so glad this thread is here.  I read all eight pages and didn't quite see my thoughts already expressed.  First, it amazes me whenever I see the film that Alma asks Ennis why he doesn't get married again -- until I realize, she is asking that question as a setup, before the next question, do you still go fishing with Jack Twist?  Likewise, it amazes me that later Jack says "all these years you never found anyone else to marry" until I realize maybe Jack is also hinting or trying to open up a conversation with Ennis about why he hasn't got married, not really suggesting that he should get married. 

To me, the scenes with Cassie jar but that may be appropriate.  The first scene, where she puts her feet in his lap and we know most guys would react different to that -- when I see Ennis decide to go along with it and smile, it just kills me.  I hate to see him be untrue not only to Jack, but to himself.  It is wrenching but that is the power of the film.  As for Cassie's investment, nobody really has acknowledged yet that obviously she got sexual with Ennis pretty quick - probably that same night, and Ennis would be getting some reassurance from that but Cassie would be falling hard (It's so easy to fall in love....)  Ennis brings her to meet Jr.-- by that time they have seen each other for a while and he is doing that to see how it feels, to try and convince himself it might work out.  Then the painful scene where they dance and he looks like he'd rather be smoking his cigarette alone somewhere.  Very difficult for me to watch.

When she says "I don't get you, Ennis Del Mar" that is so classic, a woman trying to understand a homosexual man and thinking it's any reason but that.  Wondering, probably, is it me?  Or what?  When Ennis tells Jack about putting the blocks to her, he says this in the context that she could be a candidate for marriage, who in that moment thinks he would ever marry her?  It wouldn't work out.  Some of the posts here say she is "good enough" -- oh dear, it would be a disaster for both of them.  She is not good enough.  She is fabulous for someone else, but not for Ennis, and he would be terrible for her.  The way Ennis treated Alma should give us all a clue that we don't want to see him marry a woman and get her pregnant.  Nor would he support another brood of kids any better than the first two.  He was right to spare Cassie that fate.
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: City Girl on March 27, 2006, 05:39:06 PM
Hi all, I have been thinking a lot about Cassie and so glad this thread is here.  I read all eight pages and didn't quite see my thoughts already expressed.  First, it amazes me whenever I see the film that Alma asks Ennis why he doesn't get married again -- until I realize, she is asking that question as a setup, before the next question, do you still go fishing with Jack Twist?  Likewise, it amazes me that later Jack says "all these years you never found anyone else to marry" until I realize maybe Jack is also hinting or trying to open up a conversation with Ennis about why he hasn't got married, not really suggesting that he should get married. 

To me, the scenes with Cassie jar but that may be appropriate.  The first scene, where she puts her feet in his lap and we know most guys would react different to that -- when I see Ennis decide to go along with it and smile, it just kills me.  I hate to see him be untrue not only to Jack, but to himself.  It is wrenching but that is the power of the film.  As for Cassie's investment, nobody really has acknowledged yet that obviously she got sexual with Ennis pretty quick - probably that same night, and Ennis would be getting some reassurance from that but Cassie would be falling hard (It's so easy to fall in love....)  Ennis brings her to meet Jr.-- by that time they have seen each other for a while and he is doing that to see how it feels, to try and convince himself it might work out.  Then the painful scene where they dance and he looks like he'd rather be smoking his cigarette alone somewhere.  Very difficult for me to watch.

When she says "I don't get you, Ennis Del Mar" that is so classic, a woman trying to understand a homosexual man and thinking it's any reason but that.  Wondering, probably, is it me?  Or what?  When Ennis tells Jack about putting the blocks to her, he says this in the context that she could be a candidate for marriage, who in that moment thinks he would ever marry her?  It wouldn't work out.  Some of the posts here say she is "good enough" -- oh dear, it would be a disaster for both of them.  She is not good enough.  She is fabulous for someone else, but not for Ennis, and he would be terrible for her.  The way Ennis treated Alma should give us all a clue that we don't want to see him marry a woman and get her pregnant.  Nor would he support another brood of kids any better than the first two.  He was right to spare Cassie that fate.
totally agree.  I like Cassie.  She is ok.  I've been Cassie.  And the kindest thing Ennis could have done for Cassie was to cut her loose to find a (brain freeze) what-ever his name was
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: pauline on March 27, 2006, 06:25:55 PM
I feel that this relationship is nothing more than one based on Ennis's fears of being "found out" in Riverton, Wyoming.  He did what he had to do to cover up his being gay, he was more concerned with people" knowing" about him than in his own happiness.  He could not let people know that he was queer. He did what any man would have done who was still in the closet he started dating and fucking a woman. But of course that did not work either.  Jack was never far from his mind.  I'm sure everything reminded him of Jack that he and Cassie did together. He could be open with Cassie but never with Jack simply because they would be "found out." Talk about your quiet desperations!  Ennis was in love with Jack long before they came down from the mountain he just could not show it openly, not even to Jack until it was too late. 
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: stacp on March 27, 2006, 07:53:37 PM
Hi all, I have been thinking a lot about Cassie and so glad this thread is here.  I read all eight pages and didn't quite see my thoughts already expressed.  First, it amazes me whenever I see the film that Alma asks Ennis why he doesn't get married again -- until I realize, she is asking that question as a setup, before the next question, do you still go fishing with Jack Twist?  Likewise, it amazes me that later Jack says "all these years you never found anyone else to marry" until I realize maybe Jack is also hinting or trying to open up a conversation with Ennis about why he hasn't got married, not really suggesting that he should get married.  

Yes!  I think this is Jack's way of trying to get Ennis to admit the obvious:  That Ennis won't, can't get married again because he loves Jack.  Jack is prodding here, trying not to scare Ennis, but testing the waters.  I think Alma does the same and poor Cassie doesn't have a clue. 
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: Ellen (tellyouwhat) on March 28, 2006, 03:05:18 AM

To me, the scenes with Cassie jar but that may be appropriate.  The first scene, where she puts her feet in his lap and we know most guys would react different to that -- when I see Ennis decide to go along with it and smile, it just kills me.  I hate to see him be untrue not only to Jack, but to himself.  It is wrenching but that is the power of the film.  As for Cassie's investment, nobody really has acknowledged yet that obviously she got sexual with Ennis pretty quick - probably that same night, and Ennis would be getting some reassurance from that but Cassie would be falling hard (It's so easy to fall in love....)  Ennis brings her to meet Jr.-- by that time they have seen each other for a while and he is doing that to see how it feels, to try and convince himself it might work out.  Then the painful scene where they dance and he looks like he'd rather be smoking his cigarette alone somewhere.  Very difficult for me to watch.

When she says "I don't get you, Ennis Del Mar" that is so classic, a woman trying to understand a homosexual man and thinking it's any reason but that.  Wondering, probably, is it me?  Or what?  When Ennis tells Jack about putting the blocks to her, he says this in the context that she could be a candidate for marriage, who in that moment thinks he would ever marry her?  It wouldn't work out.  Some of the posts here say she is "good enough" -- oh dear, it would be a disaster for both of them.  She is not good enough.  She is fabulous for someone else, but not for Ennis, and he would be terrible for her.  The way Ennis treated Alma should give us all a clue that we don't want to see him marry a woman and get her pregnant.  Nor would he support another brood of kids any better than the first two.  He was right to spare Cassie that fate.
totally agree.  I like Cassie.  She is ok.  I've been Cassie.  And the kindest thing Ennis could have done for Cassie was to cut her loose to find a (brain freeze) what-ever his name was

Brain freeze?  Yeah, he's nice -- Actually I was impressed with Carl at the way he didn't complain when she went over to talk to Ennis, and she left Carl alone.  He let her go, didn't hover, didn't call her back, didn't seem to expect to be introduced to Ennis, and seemed protective of her on the way out of the diner.

You are right, it was the kindest thing for Ennis to do (let her go) although not the kindest way to do it.  I think what she got there was a brief look into what marriage with Ennis would have been like.  He doesn't 'splain what he doesn't want to 'splain.  It's gotta be his way, even if it makes the girl cry.  He did say he was sorry.  That's more than Alma ever got.
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: blubird on March 31, 2006, 12:59:57 PM

To me, the scenes with Cassie jar but that may be appropriate.  The first scene, where she puts her feet in his lap and we know most guys would react different to that -- when I see Ennis decide to go along with it and smile, it just kills me.  I hate to see him be untrue not only to Jack, but to himself.  It is wrenching but that is the power of the film.  As for Cassie's investment, nobody really has acknowledged yet that obviously she got sexual with Ennis pretty quick - probably that same night, and Ennis would be getting some reassurance from that but Cassie would be falling hard (It's so easy to fall in love....)  Ennis brings her to meet Jr.-- by that time they have seen each other for a while and he is doing that to see how it feels, to try and convince himself it might work out.  Then the painful scene where they dance and he looks like he'd rather be smoking his cigarette alone somewhere.  Very difficult for me to watch.

When she says "I don't get you, Ennis Del Mar" that is so classic, a woman trying to understand a homosexual man and thinking it's any reason but that.  Wondering, probably, is it me?  Or what?  When Ennis tells Jack about putting the blocks to her, he says this in the context that she could be a candidate for marriage, who in that moment thinks he would ever marry her?  It wouldn't work out.  Some of the posts here say she is "good enough" -- oh dear, it would be a disaster for both of them.  She is not good enough.  She is fabulous for someone else, but not for Ennis, and he would be terrible for her.  The way Ennis treated Alma should give us all a clue that we don't want to see him marry a woman and get her pregnant.  Nor would he support another brood of kids any better than the first two.  He was right to spare Cassie that fate.
totally agree.  I like Cassie.  She is ok.  I've been Cassie.  And the kindest thing Ennis could have done for Cassie was to cut her loose to find a (brain freeze) what-ever his name was

Brain freeze?  Yeah, he's nice -- Actually I was impressed with Carl at the way he didn't complain when she went over to talk to Ennis, and she left Carl alone.  He let her go, didn't hover, didn't call her back, didn't seem to expect to be introduced to Ennis, and seemed protective of her on the way out of the diner.

You are right, it was the kindest thing for Ennis to do (let her go) although not the kindest way to do it.  I think what she got there was a brief look into what marriage with Ennis would have been like.  He doesn't 'splain what he doesn't want to 'splain.  It's gotta be his way, even if it makes the girl cry.  He did say he was sorry.  That's more than Alma ever got.
                                                                                                                                                        I love these late scenes when Cassie all tarted up "70's show" style appears>I remember the 70's that well>>>She is probably at least 10 years younger than Ennis and it's clear that she prefers older men, good taste on her part. Alma jr's mournful look back at her and her father tells us all we need to know about the disaster about to happer >>to Cassie. His treatment of her at the diner harks back to his own treatment of his wife at the drive-in>> seemingly total disinterest. Cassie's I don't understand you is the anguish of a young and pretty woman handing herself to an older man and the man not responding as she expects. These scenes speak volumes. Ennis's mumbling I'm sorry, he seems to be explaining that he's just not right for her and she'd be better off with someone else. Bravo Cassie for picking up the sexy hunk! Not your fault if things didn't work out!
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: twtplanner on March 31, 2006, 01:32:03 PM
...When she says "I don't get you, Ennis Del Mar" that is so classic, a woman trying to understand a homosexual man and thinking it's any reason but that.  Wondering, probably, is it me?  Or what?  When Ennis tells Jack about putting the blocks to her, he says this in the context that she could be a candidate for marriage, who in that moment thinks he would ever marry her?  It wouldn't work out.  Some of the posts here say she is "good enough" -- oh dear, it would be a disaster for both of them.  She is not good enough.  She is fabulous for someone else, but not for Ennis, and he would be terrible for her.  The way Ennis treated Alma should give us all a clue that we don't want to see him marry a woman and get her pregnant.  Nor would he support another brood of kids any better than the first two.  He was right to spare Cassie that fate.

Great comments and insight.  As for me, I'm the guy who caused the confusion and heartache.  I didn't know what was going on inside of me with my own confused feelings - I just knew I wasn't feeling physical attraction to the beautiful young girl I asked to the prom or on dates in college.  The more times I see the film, the scene with Cassie in the bus station diner hits me almost as hard as the ones that follow. Seeing that scene, her eyes filled with tears as she tells Ennis she just doesn't get him.......mmmh, it brings back those sad, uncomfortable and dark times.  I recall once when a relationship came to a head, I basically sat there, not answering her at all or with one or two word sentences, my throat hurting because of the clinch.  Watching that scene...hurting for Cassie, but even more for Ennis.......

Fortunately I never married one of those sweet girls, sparing us both from immeasurable heartbreak.  I hope they somehow came to know my reaction was not at all because of something they did or didn't do, not because I didn't think they weren't pretty, or that I didn't 'choose' them.  If possible, I would tell them today, why.   

You're so right - despite Cassie's heartache, Ennis - even if by default - did the right thing in letting her go.

terry
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: bluehorse on April 06, 2006, 12:11:42 AM
I have a sacrilegious question. Is anyone else bored during the Cassie scenes? True I've seen this movie a billion times at this point, but I have to admit these scenes really lose me. . .
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: Willhoite on April 06, 2006, 12:31:25 AM
I have a sacrilegious question. Is anyone else bored during the Cassie scenes? True I've seen this movie a billion times at this point, but I have to admit these scenes really lose me. . .

The "Cassie Cartright (or Carwright)" character was created or "fleshed out" (by the screenplay writers) because of what Ennis said about "putting the blocks to a woman in Signal" when Ennis and Jack were together in May 1983.

One "puts the block to" or "puts up on blocks" a vehicle when one wants to look at its chassis (pronounced "chassy)." I remember "Kookie," the parking valet in the TV Series "77 Sunset Strip" back in the 1950s. He saw a woman who happened to be French and he said aloud, "Sassy chassis." Kookie like cars and while he was not exactly talking to her, she knew exactly what he meant and thanked him for noticing.

In my opinion from the way that I read the AP story, the woman whom Ennis mentioned really did not exist. He made her up to try to keep convincing himself and Jack that he was still not "queer."

I really don't think Ennis was the type to chase after a woman in the first place.

I am reminded of a guy whom I have known for more than 7 years who has claimed, "I'm not gay; I'm not even bisexual." It was funny one time when he said, "I'm not gay!" in a group where the whole group knew that I was openly gay and they knew that he was living with me, too. One time I asked him after we had had sex, "When you have sex with anyone, who makes the first move?" He responded that it was always the other person first. And what else I knew, the gals always approached him first and introduced themselves before he dated them.
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: City Girl on April 06, 2006, 01:08:11 AM
totally agree.  I like Cassie.  She is ok.  I've been Cassie.  And the kindest thing Ennis could have done for Cassie was to cut her loose to find a (brain freeze) what-ever his name was

Brain freeze?  Yeah, he's nice -- Actually I was impressed with Carl at the way he didn't complain when she went over to talk to Ennis, and she left Carl alone.  He let her go, didn't hover, didn't call her back, didn't seem to expect to be introduced to Ennis, and seemed protective of her on the way out of the diner.

You are right, it was the kindest thing for Ennis to do (let her go) although not the kindest way to do it.  I think what she got there was a brief look into what marriage with Ennis would have been like.  He doesn't 'splain what he doesn't want to 'splain.  It's gotta be his way, even if it makes the girl cry.  He did say he was sorry.  That's more than Alma ever got.

Brain freeze was a reference to me.  I couldn't remember Carl's name at the moment I wrote the post.
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: City Girl on April 06, 2006, 01:34:40 AM
I have a sacrilegious question. Is anyone else bored during the Cassie scenes? True I've seen this movie a billion times at this point, but I have to admit these scenes really lose me. . .
The "Cassie Cartright (or Carwright)" character was created or "fleshed out" (by the screenplay writers) because of what Ennis said about "putting the blocks to a woman in Signal" when Ennis and Jack were together in May 1983.

One "puts the block to" or "puts up on blocks" a vehicle when one wants to look at its chassis (pronounced "chassy)." I remember "Kookie," the parking valet in the TV Series "77 Sunset Strip" back in the 1950s. He saw a woman who happened to be French and he said aloud, "Sassy chassis." Kookie like cars and while he was not exactly talking to her, she knew exactly what he meant and thanked him for noticing.

I really don't think Ennis was the type to chase after a woman in the first place.

I had been wondering what "putting the blocks to" meant.  I mean I got the gist but didn't understand the source.  I don't see Ennis to be the type to chase after anyone actually.  Men and women would have to make the first move.  I have always sort of wondered how he ever got together with Alma in the first place.  That line he says to Jack about "most I spoke in a year" spoke volumes to me aside from the developing relationship he had with Jack.  We know he is engaged yet he hasn't said more than this to his fiance'?

No I'm not so much bored by Casse but, I love the Allman Brothers song Melissa so that helps.  At this point, I am much more bored by the Alma scenes.
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: bluehorse on April 06, 2006, 03:14:15 AM
Interesting, which Alma scenes? All of them? Is it just because we want Ennis and Jack to take up all screen time?
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: brokeback101 on April 06, 2006, 10:32:26 AM
when cassie puts her feet on ennis' lap he says "what are you doing" he said the same thing when jack took off his jacket when they were in the tent, i thought that was interesting
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: Ellen (tellyouwhat) on April 06, 2006, 10:39:40 AM
For the longest time amd over many viewings, I agreed with those here who say the film could have done without the Cassie scenes.

I've since changed my mind about that just as I have with other initial reactions I had to other scenes and then those changed, too.

I agree with whoever posted that it is in the Cassie scenes, particularly in the pie eating one where Ledger's acting is at it's most powerful. Based upon that alone, one could forgive the existence of the Cassie scenes. In terms of the story, all we needed to know was that their were potential mates for Ennis, other than Jack.

In the film, I now realize why they have been so expanded: Ennis is in the closet. (hello! and duh.)



I agree with this and, to answer the question from bluehorse, I have the most trouble when Ennis is meeting Cassie and it just feels so wrong to see him go along with her.  It feels like he's betraying himself when he rubs her feet and smiles, and asks - is that good? and we hear the song "It's so easy to fall in love" in the background.  I have come to the conclusion that I hate it because it's so uncomfortable, we in the audience sense this is indeed "fun" for Cassie, to get quiet Ennis to open up, smile at her, probably have sex with her that night.

The scene also does a couple other things -- sheds light on Ennis' social life (before she approaches him, he's sitting alone drinking)  He must be lonely much of the time.  Probably there was more than one Cassie-- that is, women he had sex with, but probably she was the only one who ever got close enough to be introduced to Alma Jr.  I think my problem with the Cassie scenes - the reason they jar -- is that we know deep down when we're watching that it's wrong! wrong! wrong! and it can only end in heartache, especially for her.  As it does.
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: Passion on April 06, 2006, 10:55:48 AM
Fortunately I never married one of those sweet girls, sparing us both from immeasurable heartbreak.  I hope they somehow came to know my reaction was not at all because of something they did or didn't do, not because I didn't think they weren't pretty, or that I didn't 'choose' them.  If possible, I would tell them today, why.   

You're so right - despite Cassie's heartache, Ennis - even if by default - did the right thing in letting her go.
terry
I was relating the Cassie scene to my life as well because in my teens and early 20's I would date some men but then just bail because if I started dating a women that would take priority over my dates with men. I never explained to those men why I suddenly lost interest in them. So, I maybe didn't create the same emotion in the men that Ennis saw in Cassie but I would get the same reaction of them saying "I don't get you!"  When I met up with my now husband after 10 years I had an opportunity to tell him why I just was not that into him before----I told him I was a Lesbian and had not come to terms with the fact that I could be attracted to men!  It felt soooo good to tell him and then he was able to understand why I dropped off the face of the earth (I don't think he ever realized that maybe I didn't think he was "pretty" enough!! ;) )  Anyway, we ended up getting married  and I am glad that I was able to tell him!  I am also glad that the Cassie scene was included in the movie and that Ennis was able to say sorry to her---it gave me a glimmer of hope that he was starting to "get" his own feelings.
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: stacp on April 06, 2006, 05:13:08 PM
when cassie puts her feet on ennis' lap he says "what are you doing" he said the same thing when jack took off his jacket when they were in the tent, i thought that was interesting

Interesting point.  Does this show that Ennis really hasn't evolved much emotionally over the years?  He still can't recognize a come-on?  Maybe it's showing he still "repressed" when it comes to sexuality.
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: Poohbunn on April 07, 2006, 11:37:57 AM
When I think about what happened to Ennis after the movie, I wonder if perhaps he didn't get back together with Cassie again. Maybe he asked her to go to Alma, Jr's wedding with him as his date.  The toast in his trailer with Alma, Jr. over her wedding plans and his willingness to toss his job and attend gives me the idea he had an epiphany of sorts.  Jack liked the idea of him remarrying so he may do it for Jack, as a way to uphold their unspoken promise.  And since Jack is no longer around, he would not be going off with anyone. Cassie would likely understand anyway.
-- Pooh
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: stacp on April 07, 2006, 12:00:12 PM
When I think about what happened to Ennis after the movie, I wonder if perhaps he didn't get back together with Cassie again. Maybe he asked her to go to Alma, Jr's wedding with him as his date.  The toast in his trailer with Alma, Jr. over her wedding plans and his willingness to toss his job and attend gives me the idea he had an epiphany of sorts.  Jack liked the idea of him remarrying so he may do it for Jack, as a way to uphold their unspoken promise.  And since Jack is no longer around, he would not be going off with anyone. Cassie would likely understand anyway.
-- Pooh

I thought Jack made this "all this time and you ain't found no one to marry" as a way of trying to get Ennis to admit that Ennis won't get married again because he loves Jack.  IMO, Jack didn't want for Ennis to get re-married because Jack wanted Ennis to be with him.  As for Cassie and Ennis getting back together, I don't see it.  I think Ennis knew after the last meeting any relationship with her or any other woman would be a sham.
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: Ellen (tellyouwhat) on April 07, 2006, 12:01:08 PM
When I think about what happened to Ennis after the movie, I wonder if perhaps he didn't get back together with Cassie again. Maybe he asked her to go to Alma, Jr's wedding with him as his date.  The toast in his trailer with Alma, Jr. over her wedding plans and his willingness to toss his job and attend gives me the idea he had an epiphany of sorts.  Jack liked the idea of him remarrying so he may do it for Jack, as a way to uphold their unspoken promise.  And since Jack is no longer around, he would not be going off with anyone. Cassie would likely understand anyway.
-- Pooh


Oh Pooh, I certainly hope not!   Cassie deserves a different kind of guy.  I can't imagine Ennis would keep dancing with her after they were married, or go to any social events any more than he did with Alma.  Can't imagine Cassie would want to live in a trailer or that Ennis would want to live in a house.  Can't imagine Ennis would want to start over again with kids or the possibility of child support.  Can't imagine, that after their breakup, he would want to get back together with her - in fact he was probably more relieved that break up was out of the way.  IMO
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: Ellen (tellyouwhat) on April 07, 2006, 12:07:20 PM

I thought Jack made this "all this time and you ain't found no one to marry" as a way of trying to get Ennis to admit that Ennis won't get married again because he loves Jack.  IMO, Jack didn't want for Ennis to get re-married because Jack wanted Ennis to be with him.  As for Cassie and Ennis getting back together, I don't see it.  I think Ennis knew after the last meeting any relationship with her or any other woman would be a sham.


Yeah, stacp.  Yeah.  me too, regarding the reason Jack brought up Ennis marrying again.
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: danac on April 07, 2006, 03:22:53 PM
I adamantly disbelieve that Ennis would have gone back to Cassie.
Firstly, the story never mentions her again...at the end of the story, he is living alone and Jack has begun to shoe up in his dreams...maybe I'm a hopeless romantic,but I think Jack became more part of him when he died than Ennis allowed him to be while he lived.
In my " Ennis' future" fantasy,he lives alone or with Jr. until he dies - and on his deathbed can hardly wait to ge to Jack.
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: City Girl on April 07, 2006, 03:34:54 PM
Get back together with Cassie?  God Forbid!  First, Cassie deserves a man who really wants her, not some guy who wants a nice person around the house.  And Ennis?  He doesn't much care for the company outside of a select few.  I believe he would rather be alone with this dreams of Jack and how they stoke the day, than be intruded on by people making demands on him to converse or dance.
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: fairdathm on April 09, 2006, 05:43:16 AM
Hi all, this is a truly a moment in my life as this is the very first time I post anything anywhere on the net. I've been around this board, practically glued to the forum since the first viewing. It's been great to know that I'm not crazy to continuously go back to see the movie and cry my eyes out, which in fact also happens every time I think of the movie...

Everyone seems to have great insights/analysis to the movie and I know that my reactions are still very emotional but I thought I'd give my thoughts on 'castrating the cow' part, that is, my initial response to the line. I haven't gone as far as to be able to analyze the movie let alone why my life has turned upside down and inside out since watching the movie so please bear with me ^_^

My focus was more on 'earlier today' part than the castrating part to be honest, as in 'I've done that this morning but who knows what I'll be doing tomorrow?', which I thought led into what E says to J in their last scene, 'no one, nowhere' and how much he's been juggling his life trying to see J and simultaneously fulfill his duties as a father. He does seem to have a more stable job than when he was younger (from what he tells J again in the last scene together) in order to provide child support and all but it didn't sound like a permanent thing. As there isn't any other mention of what E does for living since the divorce (apart from the hint that he is working hard and thus cannot see J often enough), I thought this line reflected his conditions of life, and also not having anything stable except J and Alma Jr.

There are many things swarming in my head but I'll stop before I really begin rambling. It took a while to write even this short post and as embarrassed as I am, I thought i'd finally give it a try... I am so glad I found this site and thanks everyone for sharing your thoughts. You certainly have kept me sane and relatively 'stable' for the past few weeks.  ;D

Hi, I just had to say that I'm kind of new to this board, too, and when I read your first paragraph I seriously LOL, because I have been doing the exact same thing (and I don't normally post on any boards, either).  I've seen BBM eight times now in the theater, cried every single time repeatedly, and then when I watched the DVD a couple nights ago, it was just that much worse (not having to stop myself for the benefit of fellow theater-goers).  And of course I get teary whenver I think about it.  It seems a lot of people feel the same way!  Anyway, thank you , your post is wonderful. 
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: fairdathm on April 09, 2006, 04:44:16 PM
is it the allman brother's song?

"Melissa"

Crossroads seem to come and go.... yeah
The gypsy flies from coast to coast,
Knowin' many lovin' none,
Bearin' sorrow havin fun,

But back home He'll always run....
..to sweet Melissa. mmmhmmm...

Freight train, each car looks the same.... all the same
And no one knows the gypsy's name,
No one hears his lonely sigh,
There are no blankets where he lies,

In all his deepests dreams the gypsy flies.....
..to sweet Melissa.

Again the mornin's come,
Again he's on the run,
Sunbeams shinin' through his hair,
Appearin' not to have a care.
Pick up your gear n' gypsy roll along...
..roll along.

Crossroads, would you ever let him go? ...no, no.
Oh will you hide the dead man's ghost?
Or will he lie beneath the plain?
Will his spirit roll away?

But I know that he wont stay...
..without Melissa.

Yes I know that he wont stay...
..without Melissa.

Hi, I know it's been a long time since this post, but I just wanted to THANK YOU for posting it here.  For some reason, every time this song played in the movie I felt really emotional, and I kept thinking about it (and feeling emotional) later, but I didn't completely understand why.  I couldn't quite make out everything that was being said.  So now, reading the first part, it's quite obvious.  I guess my subconscious must have heard the words clearly!   Thank you so much for clearing this up, and for identifying the song (wonder why it isn't on the soundtrack?).
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: fairdathm on April 09, 2006, 06:48:14 PM
Just posted this in "symbolism", but maybe it fits here also (?).

I noticed something today, very simple compared to the philosophical discussions here.  But, I still thought it was interesting.  When Ennis and Cassie are in the bar with Alma, Jr., and Cassie leads Ennis to the dance floor, there are some folks sitting at a table to the right.  I never bothered to look at them before I had the DVD!  But just now, I realized that the two girls sitting at the table may be two of the same girls shown on the grass at the 4th of July scene, when the crude bikers walk in.  They have the same blond curly hair and straight brown hair, and I think the same facial features.  If it is the same 2 people, this emphasizes something we all know already, but just reinforces the point--that Ennis lives in a fairly small town where you see a lot of the same people all the time, which adds depth to his fears about people 'knowing' and all that.  (And this is probably is one of several reasons he tries to be with Cassie; he realizes Alma knows about him and Jack, time has passed where he's been alone, and he now has even more anxiety about trying to seem 'normal'...)
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: KEK on April 14, 2006, 02:29:24 PM
It's funny (well, amazing is more like it) how the film surprises us.  After my 2nd theatre viewing, i felt i emotionally reacted to elements in the plot that i wouldnt have otherwise guessed.
This time i managed to detect, even feel the pain that spreaded from  Jack and Ennis to those around them. I really got a 'heartache' during E & C's last scene in the bar, where a tearful Cassie says 'i dont get u' and 'girls dont fall in love with fun'. Excellent performance. I felt i wanted to share that, i was honestly surprised by my own reaction.. (i'm posting a similar topic on another scene in the 'how it affected you' forum)  :-\
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: fairdathm on April 14, 2006, 11:05:19 PM
when cassie puts her feet on ennis' lap he says "what are you doing" he said the same thing when jack took off his jacket when they were in the tent, i thought that was interesting

Interesting point.  Does this show that Ennis really hasn't evolved much emotionally over the years?  He still can't recognize a come-on?  Maybe it's showing he still "repressed" when it comes to sexuality.

I could be completely wrong, but both times Ennis says "What are you doin'?", when Jack and Cassie each make their moves, I think he really knows what's being done.  I think HE just doesn't know what to do about it himself.  That's his way of stalling or squirming around the situation, because in each case has has a reason to resist what's happening, even though part of him also has a reason to want to.  (In FNIT, of course he wants Jack but has many reasons to resist; with Cassie he's not really interested, but he must know this will help him present a 'non-queer' appearance in that small town, and dating someone like Cassie is after all something a man 'should' want to do.  Etc.)
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: Just_a_Twist on April 14, 2006, 11:43:49 PM
It's funny (well, amazing is more like it) how the film surprises us.  After my 2nd theatre viewing, i felt i emotionally reacted to elements in the plot that i wouldnt have otherwise guessed.
This time i managed to detect, even feel the pain that spreaded from  Jack and Ennis to those around them. I really got a 'heartache' during E & C's last scene in the bar, where a tearful Cassie says 'i dont get u' and 'girls dont fall in love with fun'. Excellent performance. I felt i wanted to share that, i was honestly surprised by my own reaction.. (i'm posting a similar topic on another scene in the 'how it affected you' forum)  :-\

Oh, god, that scene is depressing!  Cassie crying, Ennis glumly sitting there with his pie.  This movie takes no prisoners, I'm telling you.

By this point, I'm just wanting Ennis to be happy somehow, you know?  Even with Cassie.  But I think Ennis knows it wouldn't work with her, so he does the right thing and let's her go.  Alma, Jr. tried to warn her her Dad "wasn't the marrying kind."
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: brokeagain on April 15, 2006, 11:10:07 AM
It's funny (well, amazing is more like it) how the film surprises us.  After my 2nd theatre viewing, i felt i emotionally reacted to elements in the plot that i wouldnt have otherwise guessed.
This time i managed to detect, even feel the pain that spreaded from  Jack and Ennis to those around them. I really got a 'heartache' during E & C's last scene in the bar, where a tearful Cassie says 'i dont get u' and 'girls dont fall in love with fun'. Excellent performance. I felt i wanted to share that, i was honestly surprised by my own reaction.. (i'm posting a similar topic on another scene in the 'how it affected you' forum)  :-\

Oh, god, that scene is depressing!  Cassie crying, Ennis glumly sitting there with his pie.  This movie takes no prisoners, I'm telling you.

By this point, I'm just wanting Ennis to be happy somehow, you know?  Even with Cassie.  But I think Ennis knows it wouldn't work with her, so he does the right thing and let's her go.  Alma, Jr. tried to warn her her Dad "wasn't the marrying kind."

Is it a common idea that Alma Jr. knew about her dad being gay/bi, or does she just view him as unable to give emotionally?
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: Ellen (tellyouwhat) on April 15, 2006, 11:21:37 AM
Hi brokeagain - In previous discussions, I have seen that some in this forum think Alma Jr. may have heard Ennis was gay from her mother, but I believe most people don't think she knows explicitly.  IMO her mother probably would have hinted Ennis was not the marrying kind, preferred his fishing trips, didn't support his family -- she had lots of complaints to pass on without conveying the idea to Alma Jr. that Ennis was gay - not even a commonly used word in the seventies, to my recollection.  Early eighties?  maybe.  But Jr. was still so young in that Cassie scene.

Also, in that scene even Alma Jr. can see Ennis is uncomfortable dancing.  Poor Cassie thinks she can change him.  Alma Jr. picks up on this IMO.
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: CANSTANDIT on April 17, 2006, 05:48:00 PM
Hi brokeagain - In previous discussions, I have seen that some in this forum think Alma Jr. may have heard Ennis was gay from her mother, but I believe most people don't think she knows explicitly.  IMO her mother probably would have hinted Ennis was not the marrying kind, preferred his fishing trips, didn't support his family -- she had lots of complaints to pass on without conveying the idea to Alma Jr. that Ennis was gay - not even a commonly used word in the seventies, to my recollection.  Early eighties?  maybe.  But Jr. was still so young in that Cassie scene.

Also, in that scene even Alma Jr. can see Ennis is uncomfortable dancing.  Poor Cassie thinks she can change him.  Alma Jr. picks up on this IMO.

I think this scene is critical to understanding Ennis and Jr's intimacy: She takes after him; she accepts him; he understands her; they adore each other. When Cassie pulls him to the dance floor, he says to Jr., "Excuse me, Darlin", like Cassie is an interruption between them.
I have  often wondered how much she knows about dear ol Dad.
What always strikes me is how observant she is: She looks back and forth-quickly-between Ennis and Cassie, just as he joins them back at the table.
And she clearly has reservations about the famous Jack, when she meets him in the post-divorce truck scene. She is not smiling, and she is looking at Jack very intently. I really feel like her comment about Ennis not being the marrying kind-which was a euphemism for homosexuality way back when-tells us she does know, at least subconsciously. She is way too wise and knowing for her age, a sad statement about the pain she has suffered in her young life. My fantasy for them is that some day, he feels the need to tell her, to be truthful to her about Jack. There is a  beautiful fan fic, "Someone New"  I think it is called-addresses this, in a profoundly real way.
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: downloaded1 on April 17, 2006, 05:51:19 PM
Quote
I have  often wondered how much she knows about dear ol Dad.
If you notice, Alma jr. seems to be in alot of scenes where Jack is mentioned, or parents are fighting.
And just what did she mean by "Bring big fish Daddy"?   ::)
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: stacp on April 17, 2006, 06:32:17 PM
Quote
I have  often wondered how much she knows about dear ol Dad.
If you notice, Alma jr. seems to be in alot of scenes where Jack is mentioned, or parents are fighting.
And just what did she mean by "Bring big fish Daddy"?   ::)

I think Jr. was way too little when she said "bring big fish Daddy" to know what was going on.  I do think she had some inkling about her dad as she got older, if only that she recognized how unhappy her dad was.  I always thought her "you're good enough" line to Cassie was telling.  Basically, she's saying to Cassie, if my dad wanted to get married again, you'd fit the bill, but he doesn't.  Seems to be she is starting to figure something out.  Does she know her dad is in love with another man?  Probably not, but I imagine over time, she will figure that out, too (if she ever sees those shirts).
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: jumonjii on April 18, 2006, 12:01:20 AM
I did notice that Jr. "seemed" to know something was up.

Good call.


On a side note, there was something that struck me funny when Ennis and Jack are camping and Ennis brings up Cassie.

He says she wants to go to nursing school or something.

Linda Cardellini plays a nurse on E.R.  :P

Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: jumonjii on April 18, 2006, 12:09:37 AM
"...There is a  beautiful fan fic, "Someone New"  I think it is called-addresses this, in a profoundly real way...."

Gotta link? I'd like to read it.
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: Melisande on April 18, 2006, 12:25:55 AM
Here are links to Somebody New. The author is Jennasts.

http://davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=4664.0
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: CANSTANDIT on April 21, 2006, 07:27:47 PM
Here are links to Somebody New. The author is Jennasts.

http://davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=4664.0
For anyone who has not read this, you are in for a real treat...don't miss this one, seriously. Tx for the link, Melisande.
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: Kragey on April 26, 2006, 06:36:20 AM
When Cassie pulls him to the dance floor, he says to Jr., "Excuse me, Darlin", like Cassie is an interruption between them.

I noticed that, too. That's probably my favorite tragic flaw when it comes to Ennis: the stilted way he expresses affection.
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: prose on May 02, 2006, 10:43:19 AM
I think the most striking statement cassie has said to ennis in the diner was when she says, Ennis, girls dont fall in love with fun. Ennis' face was so sad and about to drop tears when he heard it. This means for me, Ennis just realized one of the meanings of the word love.
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: prose on May 04, 2006, 10:37:58 AM
I think the most striking statement cassie has said to ennis in the diner was when she says, Ennis, girls dont fall in love with fun. Ennis' face was so sad and about to drop tears when he heard it. This means for me, Ennis just realized one of the meanings of the word love.

It is a powerful line. Perhaps it made Ennis recall that in trying to placate Jack during their recent confrontation he had referred to getting Don Wroe's cabin again because they had "fun" there. Maybe, just maybe, Cassie's remark made Ennis think: "Boys don't fall in love with fun either."

I totally agree with you.Some would say that the character Cassie should not be added by Ang lee since she is not in the short story but I guess Cassie did a great impact also specilly girls don't fall in love with fun. And I guess boy's dont fall in love with fun either.
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: CANSTANDIT on May 04, 2006, 06:24:07 PM
I think the most striking statement cassie has said to ennis in the diner was when she says, Ennis, girls dont fall in love with fun. Ennis' face was so sad and about to drop tears when he heard it. This means for me, Ennis just realized one of the meanings of the word love.

It is a powerful line. Perhaps it made Ennis recall that in trying to placate Jack during their recent confrontation he had referred to getting Don Wroe's cabin again because they had "fun" there. Maybe, just maybe, Cassie's remark made Ennis think: "Boys don't fall in love with fun either."

I totally agree with you.Some would say that the character Cassie should not be added by Ang lee since she is not in the short story but I guess Cassie did a great impact also specilly girls don't fall in love with fun. And I guess boy's dont fall in love with fun either.
Maybe also Ennis is stunned into realizing he was loved-?
Get ready, darlin', cuz it's comin again....
I see these the  last few scenes as object lessons for Ennis, being repeated over and over, very ironically, until he gets the final big one, ie, the shirts from Jack:
He is lovable, and has rejected love, from the one person who loved him more than anyone else, and the person he loved more than anyone else.
It pains me to be so blunt, but this is what he his living of life hath wrought. Poor, sad soul...I want to hug him RIGHT NOW. Jack, too.
 :'(
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: sizzy k on May 04, 2006, 08:39:05 PM
I think the most striking statement cassie has said to ennis in the diner was when she says, Ennis, girls dont fall in love with fun. Ennis' face was so sad and about to drop tears when he heard it. This means for me, Ennis just realized one of the meanings of the word love.

It is a powerful line. Perhaps it made Ennis recall that in trying to placate Jack during their recent confrontation he had referred to getting Don Wroe's cabin again because they had "fun" there. Maybe, just maybe, Cassie's remark made Ennis think: "Boys don't fall in love with fun either."

I totally agree with you.Some would say that the character Cassie should not be added by Ang lee since she is not in the short story but I guess Cassie did a great impact also specilly girls don't fall in love with fun. And I guess boy's dont fall in love with fun either.


I didn't like Cassie scenes before, cus you know, they looked boring. Even Ang wanted someone for Ennis that would go paralleled to Randall for Jack,  I still could not get it.
Ennis have had a long relationship with Jack and his heart been set on nobody else but Jack throughout those years, and now a girl is coming up in a bar to Ennis to remarry?
Looked to me it was not real. 
But  now I think I understand Cassie for kinda messenger from Jack, all for your help. I like this. Thankyou, guys. You're always great.

Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: Biker Named Lumpy on May 07, 2006, 04:44:27 AM
The scenes with Cassie REALLY helped me solidify my understanding of Ennis as a man and on many levels I do identify with Ennis.  For me it would be a very different movie without Cassie.  I've never felt the Cassie scenes change Annie Proulx's Ennis' character.  I like to think that the screenplay's addition of Cassie helped explain an Ennis that the screenplay writers already understood very well, thanks to Annie's wonderful descriptions of him.

First, Linda Cardellini is just plain hot as a woman and an actress.  I hope that choice of terms isn't offensive, but I can't think of a better way to explain how she (the Cassie actress) comes across to me.  She is adorable and lovable on levels that catch straight men's attentions quickly.  I would bet there were a lot of men in Riverton that envied the heck out of Ennis for the attentions she gave him, and yet those attentions didn't mean all that much to him.  Yes he drove her around in his pickup for a time.  He included her in a date with his daughter.  If we believe what he told Jack it gave him someone to claim he had a "normal" sex life with, when needed, but in truth the desirability of Cassie went right over Ennis' head.  Ennis was mostly unreachable, except to Jack and to a lesser degree to his daughters and at times Alma Sr.  (I have to add Alma Sr to the list because I do believe that Ennis loved her on some level.)

The most important thing about the inclusion of Cassie in the film is that it let us see and understand the heartbreak of the daughter when she had to share her Daddy with someone she didn't connect with much.  When she arrives at the trailer in the final scenes she is beaming because on finding him alone there she knows she gets to spend some quality time with her Dad (as "quality" as time with Ennis gets, which isn't of much quality except when he's with Jack).  I think that the film implies that she has a short list of memories of times when her Dad gave her his undivided loving attention.  She craves those moments and is heartbroken when they fall apart in the moment.

Finally in Ennis' trailer, they sit down across from each other.. she almost a stoic mirror of her father in her own inability to express her heart and the emotions in both people get a chance to finally ebb and flow in a way they both can experience together.  When she drives away, we can tell that each person feels something good about the encounter that has just occurred between them.  There is some closure to the whole thing in some ways except for the little thing of her forgetting her sweater, but the inclusion of the forgetting of the sweater is perfect in that it gives Ennis a reason to take us to the closet where we get to see his monument to his emotional failures.  We see at the same time his window to a future that awaits him.

I like to believe that Ennis DOES have a future waiting for him outside that window.  His own real acknowledgment of his pure love of Jack is step number one in his healing.  I even like to think that maybe in another time and place in the future he and Cassie could revive a friendship on possibly a platonic level, because if given a chance I think Cassie is one of few people that might be able to bring Ennis further out of his shell and out of that trailer (and the trailer is a great symbol of that shell).
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: phlmale on May 07, 2006, 08:02:11 AM
Maybe also Ennis is stunned into realizing he was loved-?
Get ready, darlin', cuz it's comin again....
I see these the  last few scenes as object lessons for Ennis, being repeated over and over, very ironically, until he gets the final big one, ie, the shirts from Jack:
He is lovable, and has rejected love, from the one person who loved him more than anyone else, and the person he loved more than anyone else.
It pains me to be so blunt, but this is what he his living of life hath wrought. Poor, sad soul...I want to hug him RIGHT NOW. Jack, too.
 :'(

I think you are spot on here...Ennis, the walking wounded, abandoned as a child..first by his parents, then by his sibs, then divorced by his wife and separated from his kids...has come away in life feeling unloved/unlovable...the bus depot scene with Cassie especially..yes, he realizes after the fight with Jack that Cassie isn't the one for him and abruptly ends their relationship.....but I also think that this is his lowest point emotionally...that he is withdrawing from people and life..he's in a bus station, static, eating pie, watching the world go by..says to Cassie it's best to forget about him he's no fun after all...probably still smarting from Jack's verbal punch in the fight scene

.....yet of the two characters in the movie..look how many people fell in love with Ennis...Jack, Alma, Cassie, his daughters...I agree that it takes Jack's death and then discovering the two shirts (especially after John Twist tells him about another man in Jack's life) that leads to his realization that Jack was the one person who loved him more than anyone else, and vis versa....and he now sees the depth of that love that was.....yet he's lost it all
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: Biker Named Lumpy on May 07, 2006, 09:55:37 AM
...yes, he realizes after the fight with Jack that Cassie isn't the one for him and abruptly ends their relationship...

I didn't have the impression that Ennis consciously ended the relationship with Cassie.  I don't think Ennis even consciously got into the relationship with Cassie.  Cassie called the shots and made the moves.  I can picture in my mind Ennis saying to Cassie "I can't see you Sunday because thats my day with my daughter" and then bubbly Cassie saying "Well, can I come along, dummy?".  Ennis showed himself most of the time to be just going along with people and situations when he was in Riverton.  He didn't know how to say no to people there.

Ennis was two people in a sense.  I think on Brokeback Ennis KNEW who he was.  He made the bold decision to enter the tent in the SNIT scene.  No one forced him in there.  On Brokeback and with Jack and with no other eyes on him but Jack's, he felt at liberty to be himself.  But back in Riverton and with Alma he was dutiful and not often much else.  If I had to guess I'd say Alma asked Ennis to marry her, not the other way around.

The only times Ennis wasn't dutiful to Alma were when Jack was in Wyoming and then we saw that Ennis truly needed to experience freedom from duty at times.  He had to get up to Brokeback to re-define and remember his real self.  I'm reminded here of Joni Mitchell's song about Woodstock: "we got to get ourselves back to the Garden".  When the three day concert was over though, everyone that went to Woodstock returned to their jobs and homes.  Thats why I see Riverton Ennis and Brokeback Ennis as being two very different men.

I think Cassie could sense the real Ennis, but she couldn't get through to him.  "I don't GET you, Ennis Del Mar" with a tear running down her face.

When I turned 50 I gave myself a wonderful birthday present.. a 60-day vacation to do whatever I wanted with.  I ended up riding my motorcycle for most of that time with the exception of 6 of those days spent on ferry boats travelling the Inside Passage up along B.C. and Alaska.  I rode all over Alaska and Canada and the western and central U.S. states.  When I got home, I thought to myself "That was the first chance I've had since childhood to really feel like I was being myself.. the self that I truly am".

I've been following Jennast's fan fiction about Ennis and Jack.  I HIGHLY recommend it (the link is posted a few posts above this one).  I have asked myself many times "In the last scene in the trailer, looking at the future outside the window..  in Ennis' future, did he ever come out to any of the people he loves?".  I think it would be totally cathartic for Ennis beyond Brokeback to come out to ANYONE really.  I would love to see the floodgates open and the waters of truth wash away the sins and hurt in him.  Jennast's fan fiction "Somebody New" addresses that question very nicely.

If I were to write a fan fiction (and I probably won't because I'm not much of a writer like Jennast is).. in my perspective, as I mentioned in an earlier post, Ennis would at some point rekindle his friendship with Cassie on a platonic level and come out to her.  I really liked the pairing of Ennis and Cassie.  It was just at the wrong place at the wrong time, but their individual personalities and needs did complement each other in some interesting ways.  I'm not saying they should have become a "couple" but I can see them being good friends and very good for one another.



Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: danac on May 08, 2006, 02:13:44 PM
If I were to write a fan fiction (and I probably won't because I'm not much of a writer like Jennast is).. in my perspective, as I mentioned in an earlier post, Ennis would at some point rekindle his friendship with Cassie on a platonic level and come out to her.  I really liked the pairing of Ennis and Cassie.  It was just at the wrong place at the wrong time, but their individual personalities and needs did complement each other in some interesting ways.  I'm not saying they should have become a "couple" but I can see them being good friends and very good for one another.





I think you're right to a degree, BNL...Cassie had the same joie de vivre that Jack had when they met and I think Ennis was drawn to that because he was so repressed and cautious. They might have made very good friends...how sad poor Ennis is. :'(
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: brokeback101 on May 08, 2006, 02:28:39 PM
Quote
If I were to write a fan fiction (and I probably won't because I'm not much of a writer like Jennast is).. in my perspective, as I mentioned in an earlier post, Ennis would at some point rekindle his friendship with Cassie on a platonic level and come out to her.  I really liked the pairing of Ennis and Cassie.  It was just at the wrong place at the wrong time, but their individual personalities and needs did complement each other in some interesting ways.  I'm not saying they should have become a "couple" but I can see them being good friends and very good for one another.

i think all that ennis needed was jack. i don't like the scenes with cassie or randal. it's clear in the story that ennis made her up when jack asked him about him getting married again. also in the story after they've had the conversation it says that they burned their truths and lies in the fire. their lies were cassie and jack's afair with his neighbor's wife.
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: CANSTANDIT on May 08, 2006, 02:58:10 PM
...yes, he realizes after the fight with Jack that Cassie isn't the one for him and abruptly ends their relationship...

Ennis showed himself most of the time to be just going along with people and situations when he was in Riverton.  He didn't know how to say no to people there.

Ennis was two people in a sense. 
Yep, the chore of the tragedy is that he cannot be himself  all the time, and even the person he is with Jack is not all that is there. Jack accepts Ennis on faith and love, but I think part of his frustration and bitterness about the 20 years is that he cannot get thru to Ennis, either. I maintain that Ennis can't let himself be loved, not fully. He does't trust it, doesn't believe in forever.. Like some critic said, love blows away in the wind, in Ennis' world (Mom and Dad, Sibs, etc. per Phlmale's post.) Nothing is permanent.


I think Cassie could sense the real Ennis, but she couldn't get through to him. 
Yes, she was the Female Jack. That explains his initial attraction. (check out how he looks her up and down, more than once....)


Beautiful posts, really.
Biker, I totally agree Cassie was the mover and shaker in the Ennis/Cassie debacle.
But she was as close to a "straight" hit, if you will, that Ennis' would ever have. He was still trying, seriously, to move on, in his own way. This happens after he starts realizing consciously, that he is 'queer' (people looking at him "like they know"), but before the verbal punch from Jack.
I think it was more than him needing time away from his duties; If he truly was playing at two identities, this must have been agonizing for him , at time, not just tiring.
I do love what you did for yourself, and am very envious. I am still about 15 years away from being able to take an extended trip, but I have gone on a few short ones, since the big "D" five years ago, and am very glad I did. A lot can happen in three days!
Here's to all of us, male and female, learning a lesson or two from poor Ennis.
Agree on the Somebody New fan fic/ Jennast is quite the writer. This is as close to Ennis as I've seen, and she gets into some serious issues with this one. I love each installment equally! :)
And I don't write regularly, as a rule, but am going to do fanfic anyway.
Go for it!
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: Sid401k on May 09, 2006, 12:50:57 PM
Lureen:  "What're you waitin' for, cowboy?  A matin' call?"

Hi!  I was initially attracted to this thread because I’m a newcomer to this site, and since I don’t want to make observations that have been made twenty times before, I feel I ought to read the prior posts.  Hence the appeal of a thread that has less than 20 pages as opposed to one with 650!

Also, although I didn’t feel that Cassie’s character was utterly pointless, I did find the scenes with her to be fairly boring, and as often as not, I’d skip them.  But since I’ve read the fascinating and insightful posts on this thread, I’ve been totally converted.  I think the three scenes with Cassie give us a lot of important information.  I’ve been pondering this for days, and I’ve come up with a lot of thoughts, so I’m going to restrict this post to the first scene.

Ang Lee (in The Making of Brokeback) says that Cassie is Ennis’s last chance to do it right—to live the life that he’s supposed to lead.  But Ennis doesn’t seek this chance out, he just takes it up when it forces itself into his lap, thinking yeah, maybe this could work.  Others before me here drew my attention to the parallels between Cassie and Jack, and when you look for them, they are all over the place.

The scene opens with Ennis at a table, drinking and smoking, been there a while, several empties and a full ashtray.  He looks lackluster:  depressed and hopeless, and so accustomed to being depressed and hopeless that it feels normal.  He finishes his beer, stands up (leaving his cigarettes and lighter on the table—his hands are empty) and heads for the john.  Here comes Cassie.  She’s perky and cute and cheerful and friendly as a puppy.  Very like Jack.  She asks him to dance and he rejects her.  He didn’t smile and say, “I’m on my way to the restroom, but don’t go anywhere because I’ll be right back.”  That would make his pit stop just clearing up this one little tedious chore so he can put his full concentration where it belongs, on her.  He didn’t say, “Sorry, but I really gotta go.”  No, he says, in effect, that he’s not interested, that he’d just as soon shake it over the urinal as stick it in her.

But here’s the thing about Cassie:  she doesn’t discourage easily.  And every time Ennis calls, she raises.  Just like Jack.  She grabs him by the finger (sexual symbolism) and hauls him off to the dance floor, introducing herself on the way.  Echoes of Jack introducing himself to Ennis.  The published script says that it’s clear than Ennis can’t dance.  It’s also clear that he doesn’t intend to try.  But Cassie coaxes him into it.  He’s starting to smile a little, very reluctantly.  He makes his first gesture toward Cassie.  He could have gone back to his own table , but he chooses to sit down at her table (the one she left her wineglass on when she went on the dance floor).  But he tempers his advance with a retreat:  “No more dancin’ for me, I hope.”  She could have pouted and called him a party pooper, or she could have tried for community of feeling by saying “Me neither, my feet hurt.”  But she teases him instead, laughing and reassuring him by telling he’s safe.

Ennis, teasing back, making small talk, gives her an opportunity to bitch, asking if it’s hard work.  And Cassie takes him up on it, playfully:  “Drunks like you, demandin’ beer after beer.  Smokin’.  Gets tiresome.”  Does this remind anybody else of Jack’s “Come in for breakfast, go back to the sheep…come in for supper, go back to the sheep…”?  Then she raises again, getting more personal, asking him what he does.  Not where he works, but what he does, that is, what’s important to him?  (“You from ranch people?”  “Your folks run you off?”)  Okay, this is pretty much the kind of thing that everybody does, trying to get to know someone they’ve just met and like.  But it’s reminding Ennis of Jack.  Not consciously, but he’s feeling an attraction because of the pleasant nostalgia that she’s awakening.

Ennis resists again.  He’s not exactly Mr. Sophistication, but he knows perfectly well that the appropriate response is what (“I’m a ranch hand.”) or who (“I’m with Stoutamire’s cow-and-calf operation.”) or where (“I work over at the old Elwood Hi-Top.”)  Instead he tells her how he spent the morning, castrating calves.  Ick.  That’s a deliberate turn-off if I ever heard one.  (And as a previous poster noted, a hint or symbol of his sexual lack of interest in her.)

Cassie raises him again.  She puts her feet in his lap—more sexual symbolism.  (It’s pretty farfetched, but I also know that the foot is considered to be a phallic symbol, so maybe she’s saying that what he lacks, she can supply?  Nah.)  Ennis responds exactly as he did with Jack on the FNIT:  “What’re you doin’?”  She’s not insulted or abashed, she just playfully teases some more, clearly waiting for him to get a move on.  Kind of reminds me of “Let’s git, ‘nless you wanna sit around tyin’ knots all day.”

So Ennis gives in.  She’s cute, she amuses him, so he’s going to give it a try.  He smiles, really smiles at her for the first time, although he’s been giving little half smiles off and on through the whole encounter.  “All right.  Is that good?”

And now a fast cut to Childress, where we see Cassie’s counterpart, Randall, putting the moves on Jack.
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: CANSTANDIT on May 09, 2006, 01:51:02 PM
Lureen:  "What're you waitin' for, cowboy?  A matin' call?"

Hi!  I was initially attracted to this thread because I’m a newcomer to this site, and since I don’t want to make observations that have been made twenty times before, I feel I ought to read the prior posts.  Hence the appeal of a thread that has less than 20 pages as opposed to one with 650!

Also, although I didn’t feel that Cassie’s character was utterly pointless, I did find the scenes with her to be fairly boring, and as often as not, I’d skip them.  But since I’ve read the fascinating and insightful posts on this thread, I’ve been totally converted.  I think the three scenes with Cassie give us a lot of important information.  I’ve been pondering this for days, and I’ve come up with a lot of thoughts, so I’m going to restrict this post to the first scene.

Welcome, Sid401k. I am so glad you detailed that scene; some of your thoughts have registered with me before, but you have clarified much more for me.
Yes, Cassie is designed, IMO, to leave no doubt that Jack is the only one for Ennis. She echos everything Jack does with Ennis, initially.
A couple of other things:
-Note the way Ang Lee shot the feet in the lap: Ennis' manhood is clearly on view-to the RIGHT, and just as clearly having NO REACTION. This to me was very intentional and telltale, if I may say so. He got involved with her despite this; he is still kidding himself a little at this point.
-Notice how Cassie dances away from Ennis, showing him her wares. Jack did the same thing, in a different way, when he "danced" in the rodeo f-up scene;
-Note that when they go back to the table, ENNIS SITS DOWN FIRST. Oh, my, how ungentlemanly, and something that in rural Wyoming of the late 70's early 80's would be considered almost cad-like, I am sure. He is non-verbally expressing a distinct "I don't give a s---" approach.
-We won't get into him practically lighting her hair on fire with a cigarette as they dance together in another scene.
Ennis just ain't into it. I think he develops affection, but not love, and so is rather taken aback when she indicates she has fallen in love with him, at the end. He doesn't connect with women on an emotional level, not like he does with Jack, at any rate. He has mistaken a sense of duty for perhaps love in the case of Alma, so that erodes, of course.
I was on the fence about gay/bi for Ennis, not being an expert at all, but it's become clear to me that this truly is an innately gay man.

 
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: MindyM on May 09, 2006, 02:01:40 PM
Quote
If I were to write a fan fiction (and I probably won't because I'm not much of a writer like Jennast is).. in my perspective, as I mentioned in an earlier post, Ennis would at some point rekindle his friendship with Cassie on a platonic level and come out to her.  I really liked the pairing of Ennis and Cassie.  It was just at the wrong place at the wrong time, but their individual personalities and needs did complement each other in some interesting ways.  I'm not saying they should have become a "couple" but I can see them being good friends and very good for one another.

i think all that ennis needed was jack. i don't like the scenes with cassie or randal. it's clear in the story that ennis made her up when jack asked him about him getting married again. also in the story after they've had the conversation it says that they burned their truths and lies in the fire. their lies were cassie and jack's afair with his neighbor's wife.

I'm with you on this one.  I did not enjoy the scenes of Ennis with Cassie, I don't think they rang true at all.  Ennis is not the type of man to engage in deception or pursue an aimless, pointless relationship.  It is true that in the story he only mentioned a waitress and didn't even give her a name.  I think maybe the screenwriters wanted to flesh out Ennis's life somewhat, making it seem as though there might have been a possibility of another relationship with a woman.  But I always knew that there was no way Ennis would ever consider marrying Cassie.  I also knew intuitively that Jack was lying about his affair with the ranch foreman's wife. 

Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: Signal63 on May 09, 2006, 09:44:15 PM
It's been posted before, but the song ("I'm Always on a Mountain When I Fall") playing during the diner scene with Cassie is a perfectly grim match for Ennis' mood. I don't think the song is there for Cassie, but instead references J & E. While Cassie may be Ennis' "lie" in the story, which Jack matches with his own tale of the ranch foreman's wife, the film brings Cassie and Randall to life as two false choices for J & E. I think the song (lyrics below) bridges the last scene with Jack and the next scene with the returned postcard. Ennis' biggest fear is no longer that he will be "found out," but that he is losing Jack. The postcard confirms his worst nightmare.

Most of my life, I've almost been a winner.
I've come so close but never really won.
Just when I thought I finally made it,
I found myself back where I started from.
 
I hate to say I'm giving up but I believe,
Losin's just become a way of life for me.
Losin' wouldn't be so bad at all,
But I'm always on a mountain when I fall.

Then you came along and had me, had me believin',
For once in my life my luck had finally changed.
And now you say you're gonna leave me,
Seems everything I do winds up the same.

Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: downloaded1 on May 09, 2006, 09:46:45 PM
I also think the song references the previous scene.
Where Ennis breaks down on his last time with Jack.
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: Sid401k on May 10, 2006, 12:26:55 PM
Alma Jr.:  "I didn't mean to be rude"

-Note the way Ang Lee shot the feet in the lap: Ennis' manhood is clearly on view-to the RIGHT, and just as clearly having NO REACTION. This to me was very intentional and telltale, if I may say so. He got involved with her despite this; he is still kidding himself a little at this point.
-Note that when they go back to the table, ENNIS SITS DOWN FIRST. Oh, my, how ungentlemanly, and something that in rural Wyoming of the late 70's early 80's would be considered almost cad-like, I am sure. He is non-verbally expressing a distinct "I don't give a s---" approach.

Thanks for the warm welcome.  I admit I was a little doubtful about such a long post.  But there seems to be a lot going on in that little scene.  Like the no erection, which I had never even thought to look for, and the sitting down first at the table, which I really should have spotted.  Annie Proulx refers to Ennis (and Jack) as "rough-spoken, rough-mannered,"  but rough-mannered is by no means the same as unmannered or ill-mannered.  He takes his hat off when he goes in the house, he always says thank you.  He'd know better; it's another deliberate slap in the face.

I've just picked up on the significance of the music during that table conversation.  Linda Ronstadt's "It's So Easy (to Fall in Love)."  What irony:  Cassie is going to find it easy to fall in love with Ennis; Ennis found it easy to fall in love with Jack; and Ennis won't be able to fall in love with Cassie.
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: CANSTANDIT on May 10, 2006, 12:37:26 PM
Alma Jr.:  "I didn't mean to be rude"

-Note the way Ang Lee shot the feet in the lap: Ennis' manhood is clearly on view-to the RIGHT, and just as clearly having NO REACTION. This to me was very intentional and telltale, if I may say so. He got involved with her despite this; he is still kidding himself a little at this point.
-Note that when they go back to the table, ENNIS SITS DOWN FIRST. Oh, my, how ungentlemanly, and something that in rural Wyoming of the late 70's early 80's would be considered almost cad-like, I am sure. He is non-verbally expressing a distinct "I don't give a s---" approach.

Thanks for the warm welcome.  I admit I was a little doubtful about such a long post.  But there seems to be a lot going on in that little scene.  Like the no erection, which I had never even thought to look for, and the sitting down first at the table, which I really should have spotted.  Annie Proulx refers to Ennis (and Jack) as "rough-spoken, rough-mannered,"  but rough-mannered is by no means the same as unmannered or ill-mannered.  He takes his hat off when he goes in the house, he always says thank you.  He'd know better; it's another deliberate slap in the face.

I've just picked up on the significance of the music during that table conversation.  Linda Ronstadt's "It's So Easy (to Fall in Love)."  What irony:  Cassie is going to find it easy to fall in love with Ennis; Ennis found it easy to fall in love with Jack; and Ennis won't be able to fall in love with Cassie.
Your post was groovy..it is nice when new posters hit us has-beens with new stuff.
Good point about the "easy"; and the hard part is after you've "fallen", isn't it? ;)
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: Sid401k on May 10, 2006, 06:59:18 PM
Ennis:  “You girls need a push or somethin’?”

Well, nobody’s objected, so here’s another long post.  This one’s on the second scene with Cassie.  Scene with Cassie, what a joke!  We start with Junior, we end with Junior, and (I ran through it last night to check) Ennis never says a single word to anybody but Junior.  (Although you may feel that the grunt as he starts to sit down after feeding the jukebox was for both of them.)

Open with Alma Junior sitting on the porch.  Geraniums are in bloom and she’s lightly clad—it’s summer.  I’m calling it summer of 1980, but it might be ‘79.  It’s probably a weekday afternoon; Sundays Ennis sees them both, and it’s not Saturday or he wouldn’t refer to “Sunday” and “next weekend,” but “tomorrow.’  So this must be a special outing with just Junior.  No wonder she’s disappointed to see Cassie tagging along.

I can picture in my mind Ennis saying to Cassie "I can't see you Sunday because thats my day with my daughter" and then bubbly Cassie saying "Well, can I come along, dummy?".

I agree with this comment 100%:  I’m sure she invited herself.  (And congratulations, Lumpy, on the great trip!)  It’s not really clear whether Cassie and Junior have met before, but since Ennis and Cassie have been dating since 1978 (banner in the Randall/Lashawn scene says 1978 and that’s after the first Cassie scene), both girls must certainly be aware of her existence.

Here we are in the bar.  [Note to the younger crowd:  In those times, in some states, it was perfectly legal for minors to go into bars when accompanied by an adult.  They couldn’t drink anything alcoholic, and they might be restricted to sitting at a table, rather than up at the bar, but nobody thought twice about their mere presence.]  Tammy Wynette is singing the final chorus of D-I-V-O-R-C-E, specifically the line “I love you both and it will be pure H-E double L for me.”  The “both” refers to her husband and four year old son.  That’s in the song, of course; in the movie it’s a pretty blatant reference to Jack and Junior.

I’ve been fascinated by posts about whether and/or when Junior knows that her old daddy is gay.  My notion is that at this point she’s considered the possibility—probably more than once—but has dismissed it.  In other words, she really knows, but is still in denial.  Thus the ambiguous “not the marrying kind.”  I don’t think that Junior dislikes Cassie, but she’s uncomfortable with the whole situation, feeling that something is off-key here, and she doesn’t want to get caught in the middle of it.  Cassie is, after all, “good enough.”  Junior’s intonation leaves us in some doubt as to whether she means “good enough for anybody” or “good enough, just barely.”

Junior is withdrawn, a little disappointed that she won’t have the one-on-one time with her daddy that she’d expected.  Cassie’s trying to be friendly without being too pushy.  Junior isn’t hostile, she’s just lost in her own thoughts.  When Ennis arrives, Cassie hauls him off to the dance floor.  (If she and Ennis did marry, you can bet she wouldn’t sit knitting in a chair remarking wistfully that they could still smarten up and go out.  She’d throw him his good shirt, tell him to comb his hair, and inform him—not ask him—where they’re going!)  Meanwhile, back at the bar, Ennis’s first words in the scene are to Junior:  “’Scuse me, darlin’,” and Junior is left alone with her uneasy thoughts.

-We won't get into him practically lighting her hair on fire with a cigarette as they dance together...
I wish I’d said that!

Some earlier posts somewhere (looked, but couldn’t find ‘em) drew my attention to the tattooed female-ish person sharing the dance floor with them.  She’s central in the shot and she’s central in the scene—a reminder to us and a wake-up call to Ennis.  This isn’t 1953 when Earl was murdered.  This isn’t 1963 when Jack and Ennis met on Brokeback Mountain or 1967 when Jack proposed and Ennis turned him down.  This is the 80s, baby, and the times they have a-changed, even in Riverton, Wyoming.  The level of tolerance for non-mainstream practices has risen dramatically.  Sure, hatred and homophobia still exist (they still exist today), but they aren’t the overwhelming majority attitude that they were 25 years ago.  But Ennis hasn’t noticed this yet.

In the truck on the way home, we can contrast Ennis the caring parent with Ennis the indifferent lover.  Someone could make a case for Junior’s request to move in being motivated by jealousy—staking a claim on him.  I’d like to look at it more as an offer to take care of him.  In the Thanksgiving scene, Alma tells Ennis, “Me and the girls worry about you bein’ alone so much.”  And probably things are tough at the Monroe home, what with the new baby and all.  (Junior is at an age where it’s normal for teenagers to feel unreasonably restricted, whether they actually are or not.)  Ennis is right though, it wouldn’t work.  Not because he isn’t set up—he could set up easily enough, I’m sure.  But he’s going to be away for extended periods; between the roundups and the fishing trips, he won’t ever be home.

Notice the way he watches Alma Junior out of the truck, craning his neck first to the left and then the right, keeping his eyes on her for as long as he can.  Poor Cassie!  She’s nothin’; she’s nowhere.
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: CANSTANDIT on May 11, 2006, 07:09:18 PM
Man, Sid, where have you been? You are pointing out such great stuff...
I think this thread has held the concensus that Alma IS aware of Ennis' inner sexual self, but not on a conscious level. But, since times are a'changin, as you pointed out, in rural Wyoming of the 80's, the kid may know more than she lets on.

I've always been bugged about the "'scuse me, darlin." I posted earlier that this was another Cassie slap; she is an interruption between Alma and Ennis.

I think he was trying to talk himself into the straight life with her. Of course, he woke up after the confrontation with Jack, and was able to apologize to her for basically wasting her time, and shame on him for that. (But I still love him!)
There is a great fanfic that very realistically discusses some of this stuff, and lots more.
It is called "Somebody New" by Jennast.
Great writer and sad/wonderful/sexy prose in there.
 :)
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: Sid401k on May 11, 2006, 08:36:48 PM
Ennis:  "…suspicious—like he knows?"

I think this thread has held the concensus that Alma IS aware of Ennis' inner sexual self, but not on a conscious level. But, since times are a'changin, as you pointed out, in rural Wyoming of the 80's, the kid may know more than she lets on.

I'm basing my assessment on a personal experience from about the same age, but that was 4-5 years earlier, albeit in a somewhat more sophisticated setting.  My mother and I were talking about a friend of the family (actually a friend of mine, about 4 years older than me), and she wondered if he just might possibly be "homosexual."  I said that I didn't know, but that it had also occurred to me.  Then we both said, "No, of course he's not."  Well, of course he was, and of course we both really knew it, but we weren't ready to come to terms with it.  By the way, he remained a close friend and we considered him to be another member of our family, always thought first of him when planning who we'll have for dinner on the holiday—well, Steve, of course.  He died a year and a half ago—my very best friend for over 40 years…

Anyway, I know at first hand what that level of denial feels like, so I projected it onto Alma Junior.  Glad to see I'm more or less in step with the consensus.  But it's the posts on this thread that opened my eyes to the possibility of her being aware!

I'll check out that fanfic.  Fanfic hasn't had any appeal at all for me until recently, but lately I've been feeling stirrings of interest.
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: Sid401k on May 11, 2006, 10:13:09 PM
Oh, you gotta read this Alterative Cassie Scene by gnash!  It's a hoot and a half!

http://davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=208.msg210146#msg210146
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: Desecra on May 11, 2006, 11:58:58 PM
I noticed some things in the last scene with Ennis and Cassie.  He starts to infuriate me in this scene.  As usual, he backs away from the truth and makes some deflecting comment ...  It's clear that he has been avoiding Cassie and ignoring her notes, but when she tries to challenge him about it he looks at her new boyfriend and says 'Looks like I got the message'.  This reminds me of his 'once burned' comment to Alma, and 'You been to Mexico' to Jack [and also of other points in the film where he tries to escape painful emotions by hitting first or making an inappropriately jokey comment]. 

Poor Cassie.  As Ennis is the one who has been avoiding her, the 'got the message' comment is in an unfair accusation.  Ennis then follows this up with a gruff 'Good for you'.  At this point I'm getting quite irritated with him!

However, instead of walking off or calling him names, Cassie persists.  And this time Ennis says 'I'm sorry', and straight , looks straight at her while saying it.  It's a heartfelt apology, and I think it may be a turning point.  Is it also an apology to Jack, in a way?  Then there is 'fun' exchange which I think has been discussed a lot. 

There's a few things going on there, and I think one of them is that the meaning of his relationship with Jack is dawning on him. 
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: Sid401k on May 13, 2006, 07:41:47 AM
I'll check out that fanfic.  Fanfic hasn't had any appeal at all for me until recently, but lately I've been feeling stirrings of interest.

It is now 6:30 in the goddamn morning and I have been here at work ALL! GODDAMN! NIGHT!  I started reading Somebody New at about 7:30 last night.  When I finished that, I thought I'd just start Human Interest.  Couldn't stop.  Took just a peek at Big Boots of Pain.  Finished that.  Went on to Nothing But Time.

Kept looking at my watch, saying, I really gotta go home.  But just one more chapter...

Nobody told me the damn stuff was instantly addictive.
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: CANSTANDIT on May 15, 2006, 05:04:17 PM
I'll check out that fanfic.  Fanfic hasn't had any appeal at all for me until recently, but lately I've been feeling stirrings of interest.

It is now 6:30 in the goddamn morning and I have been here at work ALL! GODDAMN! NIGHT!  I started reading Somebody New at about 7:30 last night.  When I finished that, I thought I'd just start Human Interest.  Couldn't stop.  Took just a peek at Big Boots of Pain.  Finished that.  Went on to Nothing But Time.

Kept looking at my watch, saying, I really gotta go home.  But just one more chapter...

Nobody told me the damn stuff was instantly addictive.
Hah! Another one bites the dust...and another down, and another one down...
Just say "no"!
('..and if you think THAT was too funny...')
The real test is can you get through an hour off of the forum without doing posts in your head... ::)
Yeah, that fanfic is bad news once you get started. I've got several done, but I need a new home comp to start publishing. Boy, once you start writing....
I love Somebody New, by the way. Is that Ennis, or is that Ennis??
PS-check out the Photo Captioning fun thread; it is bringing out the naughtiness in all of us, and you will laughing your butt off-I think! I hope! :)
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: Sid401k on May 15, 2006, 07:11:09 PM
[PS-check out the Photo Captioning fun thread; it is bringing out the naughtiness in all of us, and you will laughing your butt off-I think! I hope! :)

I did check it out, and I did LMAO.  I managed not to spray my beverage all over my monitor and keyboard, but only be being very careful not to look at the screen until after I had swallowed.
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: ottoblom on May 16, 2006, 07:42:37 PM
Ok...after seeing the film a zillion times (I actually have a DVD copy), I have discovered this to be THE pivital scene in the movie, and where "my" true meaning and lesson to the story originates (although I realize there are many things to glean from the film). 

I'm refering to the pie-eating scene of course.

When Cassie sits down and confronts him, he barely achknowledges her presence...his same zombie-like state remains unchanged.  We know Ennis has hit rock bottom, because he does not act like Ennis, who would never initiate unkindness or disprespect to a women (it's always yes ma'am, no ma'am)...especially to one he knows he has treated badly. 

But what does he say to her...."well good for you"...an uncalled for and VERY hurtful comment, given the conversation.  His torment has ripped any of compassion left out of his soul.

When Cassie delivers her final words to him and leaves the diner, he looks out into space....he has finally been delivered the fatal blow.  He realizes all the running and hiding is over...there's nowhere left to run or hide....he just can't fight any more.  He finally has to face his demons. 


I especially agree with the beginning of this post.  Remembering back to my original viewing, this scene floored me as much as the final confrontation with Jack.  Pair Ennis's "I'm sorry" with his "I'm nothing, nowhere," and you see this tortured soul creeping towards some sort of self-awareness.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: hifrommike65 on May 18, 2006, 03:36:39 PM
Cassie is a foil in the film.  She contrasts sharply to other characters.  She's more upwardly mobile, with professional ambitions that go beyond the immediate life she has in Riverton.  She's prettier than Alma, & mercenary in how she uses her looks.  She approaches Ennis differently than Jack does; still, in both cases, he says "What are you doin'?" when Jack & Cassie come on to him.  She competes with Alma Jr. for Ennis's attention.  & Cassie is 90% of the relationship, shown by how she drags Ennis to the dance floor whenever they're on it.  Even though it's understood that they have some sort of sex life, it's never shown, which is different from the other pairings.  Cassie appears to be Ennis's last attempt to hide from himself.  However, she does contribute the leftover wine with which Ennis toasts Alma Jr. & Kurt's coming wedding.  (The point is made in the screenplay drafts, I believe.) 
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: hifrommike65 on May 18, 2006, 05:26:46 PM
From the 2003 screenplay:

ENNIS stands, takes a half-empty bottle of cheap white wine from the fridge--a legacy of CASSIE. 
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: mwp2paris on May 19, 2006, 05:33:26 PM
From the 2003 screenplay:

ENNIS stands, takes a half-empty bottle of cheap white wine from the fridge--a legacy of CASSIE. 

I'm thinking that Ennis should have whipped up a salad for Alma, Jr. and used that wine in his shallot vinaigrette rather than serve in a glass...yikes...

Brokeback friends don't let Brokeback friends drink old cheap wine!
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Sid401k on May 19, 2006, 07:08:26 PM
Ennis:  “Well, I guess I’ll see you ‘round, huh?”

Third in a series of three long posts on the Ennis and Cassie scenes.  As always, this is all only my humble opinion, and if others disagree, either generally or on a specific point, I’d like to hear from them.  New insights always welcome.

Third scene with Cassie.  It’s 1981, maybe summer or early fall.  Ennis is at the diner, pushing his pie around the plate.  He looks very different from anything we’ve seen before.  A lot of his worry lines are gone or lighter.  Inconsistent makeup?  But it’s not just that.  His expression is resigned—calm, though not happy —and his tone of voice communicates that he’s gone beyond caring what happens next.  You could reasonably conclude that this scene was originally supposed to be after Ennis learns of Jack’s death.  But I think it’s that that last fishing trip in May has left its mark on him.  I think this is a place where the movie takes a different tack from the short story.  Annie Proulx says, “Nothing ended, nothing begun, nothing resolved.”  I think something did change.

I feel that both Jack and Ennis believe that the relationship is over.  Each wants to keep the relationship going—on any terms—but each of them thinks that the other one is ready to get out.  Jack thinks Ennis is probably never coming back, and it’s ripping him apart.  Ennis thinks Jack is fed up with him; Jack has said he wants to quit.  So now it’s piss-or-get-off-the-pot time for Ennis.  His life without Jack is miserable anyway.  If he hadn’t met Jack and fallen in love with him, maybe things would have been different, but he did meet Jack and he did fall in love with him.

More detail on this available on the Last Scene with Jack and Ennis thread:
http://davecullen.com/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=9d82299693fc86b745297010f54cee20&topic=2419.msg229450#msg229450

So that’s where Ennis is, sitting in the diner, picking at his pie.  He’s made up his mind that he’s not going to let Jack go.  And he’s wondering what that’s going to mean to his life.  Maybe Jack will be satisfied with a few more somewhat longer fishing trips, or maybe he’ll hold out for living together.  Whatever it takes to keep Jack, Ennis will do it.  His expression in the diner is calm, resolved, fatalistic.  He’s resigned to whatever life is going to throw at him—even Earl’s fate—as long as he can be with Jack.

Ennis has broken off with Cassie—just dropped out of her life completely, no warning.  What could he have said to her?  [Alternate History fanfic opportunity here:  Ennis comes out to Cassie, explaining why he can’t be her lover.  Is she unbelieving?  Outraged?  Sympathetic?  All three, in sequence?]  Having failed Cassie, he’s at least going to honor his commitment to his employer, so he’ll work through October, as promised.  He has sent (or shortly will send) a postcard to Jack, proposing a rendezvous in very early November.  Maybe he’ll still have a job after that trip, maybe he won’t.  If he’s not working enough to get by, he might have to hit Jack up for a “loan” to cover the child support payments, which will gall him, but…whatever it takes.

And that’s why this scene with Cassie.  (Yes, we’re finally getting back to Cassie!)  To show Ennis’s changed state of mind, now that he’s finally faced the facts and recognized what is the most important thing in his life—more important even than life itself.

Now here comes Cassie into the diner and when she hears Ennis clear his throat (is she attuned to him, or what?) she excuses herself from her date to go confront him.  Considering the circumstances, I think her initial attitude is pretty restrained.  There’s plenty would have whapped him upside the head with a heavy handbag and demanded—not just asked—where the hell he had been and what the hell did he mean just dropping out of sight without so much as a goodbye, much less an explanation!  Cassie stands for this part of the conversation, giving Ennis some space and conveying that she’s only asking for a simple explanation.  Her tone all but invites him to make up a good excuse for his behavior.  But Ennis’s vague reply, “Here ‘n’ there,” shows that he’s not going to play that game.  She may have located him physically, but in any other sense he’s as out of reach as before.

Cassie persists, reminding him of her efforts to get in touch.  Ennis’s comment, “Looks like I got the message in any case,” is chilling, lacking any sense of resentment over being replaced.  It’s as though he’s saying, “Okay, you’ve got somebody else, so why are you bothering me when all I want is for you to go away and leave me alone.”

As I remarked in my commentary on the first Cassie scene, she doesn’t discourage easily; and every time Ennis calls, she raises.  She’s not going to settle for this vague shit; she wants a genuine response, and she’s going to stick around until she gets one.  “Carl?” she responds, sitting down, “Yeah, Carl’s nice,” offering him a hint that Carl is no substitute for Ennis.  (Anymore than Cassie could be a substitute for Jack.)  Then she tries for a bit of her old teasing, “He even talks.”  Come on, Ennis, aren’t you even a little jealous, she’s saying.

“Good for you.”  That’s downright rude.  This dismissive comment, so clearly communicating that he doesn’t give a damn about Carl or Cassie, can only be a deliberate attempt to drive her away.  Here’s a quote from freshcutgrass, who has also noticed this rudeness, although s/he puts a somewhat different interpretation on the scene.

When Cassie sits down and confronts him, he barely acknowledges her presence...his same zombie-like state remains unchanged.  We know Ennis has hit rock bottom, because he does not act like Ennis, who would never initiate unkindness or disrespect to a women (it's always yes ma'am, no ma'am)...especially to one he knows he has treated badly.

But what does he say to her...."well good for you"...an uncalled for and VERY hurtful comment, given the conversation.  His torment has ripped any of compassion left out of his soul.

Poor Cassie is bewildered, and can only repeat his unkind words:  “Yeah, good for me.”  She’s been on edge all along, and now she breaks down.  No more perky, spunky Cassie here; just a hurt, rejected little girl who doesn’t understand what’s going on.  “I don’t get you, Ennis Del Mar.”  Others before me have noticed the double meaning in the “I don’t get you.”

“I’m sorry,” he mumbles, sincerely.  Finally, Ennis comes out of his introspection long enough to see that she’s really in pain, and that it’s his fault.  He offers a heartfelt apology, though he doesn’t go into specifics.  I’m sorry I hurt you, is what he’s saying.  What he can’t bring himself to say is, I’m sorry I led you on when there was no chance for you because my heart already belongs to Jack; I’m sorry I used you, just like I used Alma, to hide my love for Jack from others and from myself; I’m sorry for causing you such distress by just disappearing from your life instead of having the courage to tell you that I have to stop seeing you because I’m in love with Jack and I just don’t want to be with anybody but him.

No, Ennis can’t say any of these things.  So he tries to offer a little consolation, to tell her she’s better off without him.  “I was probably no fun anyways, was I?”  And that’s the last straw for poor Cassie.  She still doesn’t understand Ennis, and she sees that he doesn’t understand her, either.  She’s got fun enough for two, and she’s happy to share.  She wanted to give him fun, not get it from him.  She was attracted to his shyness and the potential for passion and devotion to one special person that she senses in him.  She wants to be that special person.  But now she knows that she’s not going to be, although she still doesn’t understand why.  Enough to send anybody running into the parking lot in tears.

And the scene closes on Ennis, still musing over that half-eaten slice of pie, wondering if Jack will give him another chance to try to make things work, wondering what his life is going to be like after November, wondering how long he has to live.


For the curious, here are links to my comments on the other two scenes:

Cassie 1:  http://davecullen.com/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=9d82299693fc86b745297010f54cee20&topic=938.msg222750#msg222750
Cassie 2:  http://davecullen.com/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=9d82299693fc86b745297010f54cee20&topic=938.msg226648#msg226648
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: CANSTANDIT on May 19, 2006, 08:59:34 PM
Sid,  you don't miss a darn thing, do you? I look forward to your posts, because, it never fails: You always point out something new.
IMO, not sure both fellas thought the relationship was over. I think Ennis was afraid; the white elephant-Jack's other lovers-is front and center, and he has been, for the first time in, what, 16 years, knocked a little out of the center of the universe.
He has no coping mechanism for this, so when Cassie shows up with needs, he is ill equipped to deal with her. I agree he acts like a bitchy little shit, but I can't help but feel great sorrow for him. Cassie has no idea, and you just want to shake him and make him tell her the truth. Not that that would help her any; She would then know that there was NEVER a chance and she wasted all that time. She'd be infuriated. Or maybe she'd think she could change him, yeah, that't the ticket....
I think Jack has had the proof of what parting would do to Ennis; it is why he says, "Damn, you Ennis"! as Ennis sobs in his arms; As in, you win again Ennis; I'll compromise.
I still think Nov would have been The Key.
One thing I always love about the diner is the irony of the apple pie. Boy, take in that, the cowboy hat, and add a Mom in their somewhere, and you've got the ALL AMERICAN BOY! Such terribly sad irony. Cassie is nothing if not the down-to-earth, practical, red-blooded, wants-to-get-married female, and Ennis is the down-to-earth, practical, red-blooded, closeted homosexual. A match never made. Cassie certainly doesn't get him, does she? Sadly, neither will Jack.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Sid401k on May 20, 2006, 11:27:48 PM
the irony of the apple pie. Boy, take in that, the cowboy hat, and add a Mom in their somewhere, and you've got the ALL AMERICAN BOY!

And you, CANSTANDIT, always reply to my posts and whack me with a few little extras that zipped by right over my head--like the symbolism of the apple pie.  But keep it up, I love it!
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Aussie Bloke on May 21, 2006, 06:35:28 PM
Hi friends, saw the film again last night in rural Victoria where its still on the big screen here and there. Can you help me identify a song ? Its not on the soundtrack but its played when Ennis, Cassie and Alma Jr are in the bar together. It starts about the time or just after Cassie and Alma talk about whether Ennis will get married again. The camera looks across to the dance floor and there are a couple of people sitting at a table as this song starts. I cant recognise the song but I sure like it. Wish it had been put on the soundtrack CD. Can someone name it for me ?
Thanks a lot.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: desperadum on May 21, 2006, 06:39:40 PM
I believe it is "Sweet Melissa" by the Allman Brothers. The lyrics are especially appropriate.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Aussie Bloke on May 21, 2006, 08:04:17 PM
Thankyou desperadem for getting back to me on that. Are you 100% sure its the Allman brothers? if so, What a great song - the mood of the track just really seems right for that scene. I will have to try and track it down on an CD. Maybe they couldnt get permission to have it on the soundtrack. I would sure have preferrred it over 'Its so easy" which I like but have heard a million times. It's a bit of a bummer when you buy the soundtrack only to find the song you liked the most isnt even on it!!! There was also another nice piece of guitar music with the boys on their horses that didnt make it on either.
Thanks again.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: desperadum on May 21, 2006, 08:20:15 PM
Yep, 100 percent. I don't know why it wasn't chosen for the soundrack, but of course large chunks of the score itself are not on it. It is a great song and I encourage you to check it out.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Aussie Bloke on May 22, 2006, 12:19:23 AM
Thanks - hey I just asked a mate at work to see if he could track it down through Limewire and it turns out he's a big Allman Bros fan and he's got the song on his laptop right there !!!  so I've been able to have a few listens to it this afternoon. I love it - a great song. I'm going to edit it into my own Brokeback Soundtrack. I reckon it's almost the best song they used in the movie - some of the others are a little bit too hokie for me if you know what I mean - and I reckon its a real pity it isnt on the soundtrack.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: magicmountain on May 22, 2006, 05:46:51 AM
Although the term hadn't been invented at the time I always thought that Cassie in fact virtually sexually harassed poor Ennis from the word go. There he was minding his own business on his way to the gents when she grabs hims and drags him reluctantly on to the dance floor and then starts to climb all over him. She then plops him down and plops her feet in has lap invading his space and demanding a foot rub. Even if the guy had been hetero, he was a shy and reserved person and would have been put off by this aggressive forwardness (now there's an old fashioned word - next I'll be calling her a forward hussie!)

It just seems he was grinding his teeth trying to be polite to her and she, being pushy and unable or unwilling to read his signals, in the end came a cropper. He finally had to be downright rude for her to finally get the message.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: CANSTANDIT on May 22, 2006, 12:10:02 PM
Although the term hadn't been invented at the time I always thought that Cassie in fact virtually sexually harassed poor Ennis from the word go. There he was minding his own business on his way to the gents when she grabs hims and drags him reluctantly on to the dance floor and then starts to climb all over him. She then plops him down and plops her feet in has lap invading his space and demanding a foot rub. Even if the guy had been hetero, he was a shy and reserved person and would have been put off by this aggressive forwardness (now there's an old fashioned word - next I'll be calling her a forward hussie!)

It just seems he was grinding his teeth trying to be polite to her and she, being pushy and unable or unwilling to read his signals, in the end came a cropper. He finally had to be downright rude for her to finally get the message.
It pains me to agree with you on Cassie's aggressiveness, and that it took a lot for her to be put off. This always embarrasses me when I see it in another woman; but why didn't Ennis blow her off directly up front? If he is that nice and unassertive, is that her responsibility to "read" that and leave him alone? That gives a woman an awful lot of power over a man... IMO, I think he showed the need to explore this relationship with her, as in, This woman finds me clearly very attractive, so I must not be queer... This relationship also spanned more than a short time, didn't it?
Just another blurb from the I love Ennis, but I Feel Sorry for Cassie school of thought...
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Desecra on May 22, 2006, 04:27:41 PM
I feel sorry for Cassie too.

Maybe it was miscasting but I thought Cassie was stunningly attractive.  She's the kind of woman who would have men falling at her feet all the time, and I think she was attracted to someone who wasn't.  It might look like she was harrassing Ennis, but I think she was intrigued because HE wasn't harrassing HER.  And being so gorgeous, she probably had no real concept of guys NOT being attracted to her, so what might look like harassment was, to her, helping Ennis along.

Yes, she was pushy. But I think she thought he was a shy, taciturn sort of guy who wasn't going to make a move on anyone.  If he'd been straight and attracted to her, her 'harrassment' would have been extremely welcome.  Unfortunately, she picked the wrong guy. 

She moves on, but somehow I get the impression that Carl [who is nice, and even talks], doesn't have the fascination for her that Ennis does.

So many of them end up with people they're not so passionate about - Alma and Monroe, Cassie and Carl, Jack and Randall.  Is this how it is - that the great passion of your life will never work out, and you have to make a life with second best?  Oh, the tragedy!

[Of course, I don't believe that's true in real life.  But it's certainly true in the film].
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: CANSTANDIT on May 22, 2006, 05:40:04 PM
I feel sorry for Cassie too.

Maybe it was miscasting but I thought Cassie was stunningly attractive.  She's the kind of woman who would have men falling at her feet all the time, and I think she was attracted to someone who wasn't.  It might look like she was harrassing Ennis, but I think she was intrigued because HE wasn't harrassing HER.  And being so gorgeous, she probably had no real concept of guys NOT being attracted to her, so what might look like harassment was, to her, helping Ennis along.

Yes, she was pushy. But I think she thought he was a shy, taciturn sort of guy who wasn't going to make a move on anyone.  If he'd been straight and attracted to her, her 'harrassment' would have been extremely welcome.  Unfortunately, she picked the wrong guy. 

She moves on, but somehow I get the impression that Carl [who is nice, and even talks], doesn't have the fascination for her that Ennis does.

So many of them end up with people they're not so passionate about - Alma and Monroe, Cassie and Carl, Jack and Ennis.  Is this how it is - that the great passion of your life will never work out, and you have to make a life with second best?  Oh, the tragedy!

[Of course, I don't believe that's true in real life.  But it's certainly true in the film].
Have you read "Lonesome Dove", by Larry M? If not, I suggest you do. More on the same theme; the halves living without the other halves.
so sad...
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Desecra on May 23, 2006, 09:35:19 AM
No, I haven't read it, but thanks for the recommendation :).
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: CANSTANDIT on May 23, 2006, 05:53:55 PM
No, I haven't read it, but thanks for the recommendation :).
Get the kleenex ready, friend. And its a long read, so get comfy.
(won the Pulitzer for McMurtry, and you'll see why...this book stayed with me forever.)
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: danac on May 24, 2006, 02:40:57 PM
Get the kleenex ready, friend. And its a long read, so get comfy.
(won the Pulitzer for McMurtry, and you'll see why...this book stayed with me forever.)

Agree totally. And, to it's credit, even the made-for-television film did pretty well by the book. This was a real masterpiece...and gut wrenching, too. Definitely worth the read...
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: heavysigh on May 25, 2006, 12:49:08 PM
I was inspired to re-read this book after BBM, and I'm almost finished with the last book of the series, "Comanche Moon," and yesterday one of the characters said "He's not the marrying kind," which brought me right back to BMM. They're all good reading, but I love Lonesome Dove.

Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Lance on May 25, 2006, 01:40:47 PM
Please discuss Books related to Brokeback Mountain in that thread. Here is the link: http://davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=34.0
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: CANSTANDIT on May 26, 2006, 11:31:09 AM
Please discuss Books related to Brokeback Mountain in that thread. Here is the link: http://davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=34.0
Will do...I thought the smackdown might be coming ;)
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Lance on May 26, 2006, 12:53:59 PM
Please discuss Books related to Brokeback Mountain in that thread. Here is the link: http://davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=34.0
Will do...I thought the smackdown might be coming ;)

:D A mere gentle reminder. The smackdown is less visible. ;)
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: CANSTANDIT on May 26, 2006, 02:12:47 PM
Please discuss Books related to Brokeback Mountain in that thread. Here is the link: http://davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=34.0
Will do...I thought the smackdown might be coming ;)

:D A mere gentle reminder. The smackdown is less visible. ;)
Ah, yeah, Lance, just like that..... ;) ;)
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Lintelómiel on May 29, 2006, 01:27:26 PM
I have two thoughts about the Ennis & Cassie scenes.

1: after the Cassie-Alma Jr tête-à-tête, Cassie drags Ennis to the dance floor once more. The scene that follows strikes me as so painfully poignant - Ennis dances with her, and he doesn't protest, but the way he stands there, arms a bit stiffly around her, speaks volumes to me. If I recall collectly, he even stares out of the window a bit absent-mindedly. This, IMO, is brilliant filming/acting - Ennis is doing what's socially acceptable (dancing with a girl) but his heart is so clearly not into it. The spontaneous, loving embrace by the fire stands in such sharp contrast to this scene, and my heart just aches for Ennis at that moment. Even with pretty Cassie in his arms, he looks so forlorn and lost...  :'(  I always wonder if Alma Jr notices this too; she has this thoughtful look on her face when she watches them.

2. the "girls don't fall in love with fun"-scene. Wow. Is it just me, or is that the saddest Ennis we see in the entire film? Well, with the exception of the post-Jack scenes perhaps, but he looks so utterly crushed as he sits there pushing his pie (?) round his plate. This takes place just after the last rendez-vous with Jack and the fight. Is that still playing around in his head? Clearly Cassie's appearance and the fact that she's picked up a nice, talking Carl do not really make an impression on him. Is it his guilt towards Jack that we see on his face here? I'd love to hear thoughts on this...

Lin
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: heavysigh on May 29, 2006, 05:40:04 PM
I have two thoughts about the Ennis & Cassie scenes.

2. the "girls don't fall in love with fun"-scene. Wow. Is it just me, or is that the saddest Ennis we see in the entire film? Well, with the exception of the post-Jack scenes perhaps, but he looks so utterly crushed as he sits there pushing his pie (?) round his plate. This takes place just after the last rendez-vous with Jack and the fight. Is that still playing around in his head? Clearly Cassie's appearance and the fact that she's picked up a nice, talking Carl do not really make an impression on him. Is it his guilt towards Jack that we see on his face here? I'd love to hear thoughts on this...

Lin

I interpreted it as guilt for leading her on, or more accurately, letting her continue to think she had a future with him. He sees how hurt Cassie is, and he feels badly. I imagine there's a whole lot of guilt associated with that, such as his guilt over his relationship with Alma.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Sid401k on May 29, 2006, 07:49:34 PM
quote drastically trimmed
[/size]
2. the "girls don't fall in love with fun"-scene. Wow...
I'd love to hear thoughts on this...
If you don't mind wading through a really long post...
http://davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=938.msg248179#msg248179
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Lintelómiel on May 30, 2006, 04:18:26 AM
Very insightful post, Sid! I suppose many takes on this scene are possible, but I sure like yours (Ennis having decided that he's not going to quit Jack). Yes, Ennis is downright rude to Cassie throughout the entire scene; the only moment he shows some genuine feeling is when he says "I'm sorry." He clearly means that, although that's hardly a consolation to poor Cassie, of course. I feel sorry for her, but it is Ennis who just breaks my heart. It's so tragic; he must seem like a heartless bastard to Cassie at that moment, while his heart is so full of love - just not for her.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: danac on May 30, 2006, 06:42:18 AM
I think the sadness in Ennis here is compounded by the fight with Jack, the pain he feels at having let Jack down for so many years and knowing that it's driven Jack to look elsewhere (Mexico), and the realization that he will never love Cassie the way she loves him - because his love is Jack.
JMO
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: CANSTANDIT on May 30, 2006, 12:13:13 PM
Very insightful post, Sid! I suppose many takes on this scene are possible, but I sure like yours (Ennis having decided that he's not going to quit Jack). Yes, Ennis is downright rude to Cassie throughout the entire scene; the only moment he shows some genuine feeling is when he says "I'm sorry." He clearly means that, although that's hardly a consolation to poor Cassie, of course. I feel sorry for her, but it is Ennis who just breaks my heart. It's so tragic; he must seem like a heartless bastard to Cassie at that moment, while his heart is so full of love - just not for her.
The latest feeling I get on this scene-and they do change, don't they?-is that Ennis is grieving the "not queer" image he had of himself. He sees Cassie running off in tears with Carl trailing solicitiously behind, and he sees what he most definitely is not:
A heterosexual.
I think that is the prime purpose of this scene, to show Ennis what he is not meant to do or be.
He has been fighting it, but now, especially on the heels of Jack's revelations about affairs, he may be starting to realize he needs to pony up and get more real with Jack.
Too late, of course. Poor baby.... :(
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Sid401k on May 30, 2006, 12:36:37 PM
Ennis is grieving the "not queer" image he had of himself...
CANSTANDIT, you and I do inspire each other, don't we?  Yes, that's a major piece of the puzzle!  In all the words I used to describe Ennis's miserable resignation, I completely missed out on "grieving" and "mourning."  But that's what he's doing, all right.  I said that he's maybe wondering how long he has to live, and now you come along and point out that he's already dead--at least the "ideal Ennis" is--the straight cowboy he tried so hard to be.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: CANSTANDIT on May 30, 2006, 03:47:51 PM
Ennis is grieving the "not queer" image he had of himself...
CANSTANDIT, you and I do inspire each other, don't we?  Yes, that's a major piece of the puzzle!  In all the words I used to describe Ennis's miserable resignation, I completely missed out on "grieving" and "mourning."  But that's what he's doing, all right.  I said that he's maybe wondering how long he has to live, and now you come along and point out that he's already dead--at least the "ideal Ennis" is--the straight cowboy he tried so hard to be.
thread dicgression, Sid-I have a short fic I'll send to you, re: Cassie and Ennis.
It'll take some time to get it in the right format, but you'll have first peek......
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Sid401k on May 30, 2006, 04:49:45 PM
Thanks!  Looking forward to it!
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Gypsy23 on June 04, 2006, 08:15:20 AM
Quote
The scene that follows strikes me as so painfully poignant - Ennis dances with her, and he doesn't protest, but the way he stands there, arms a bit stiffly around her, speaks volumes to me. If I recall collectly, he even stares out of the window a bit absent-mindedly. This, IMO, is brilliant filming/acting - Ennis is doing what's socially acceptable (dancing with a girl) but his heart is so clearly not into it.

There was one other small thing I thought I noticed about that scene (though it could be my imagination).  Ennis is standing there at first like you said, pretty much just a piece of wood, while Cassie snuggles into him.  Then it seems that Ennis looks at the couple dancing next to them, takes note of how the guy has his arms around his girl with his hands on her back, then Ennis quickly parrots it, putting his hands in the same place on Cassie's back.  It was a though he had no idea, or else never gave much thought to, how to handle a woman, and needed to look at another guy for clues.  Compared to his easy, instinctive interactions with Jack, it really seemed to say so much.

I squealed with delight when I realized Linda Cardellini was in the movie, but I agree that she came on way too strong.  If I yanked somebody onto the dance floor with me and they just stood there with their hands in their pockets, staring at me, I'd be mortified.  But Cassie sure is persistent, however a little dense.  It seems like she loves a challenge, and imagined that for sure she'd soon have Ennis falling all over himself for her, not realizing that could never happen.  Linda did a great job with the character.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Ministering angel on June 12, 2006, 09:50:22 PM
Maybe I'm really dense but it only just struck me that the scene of Cassie picking up Ennis is linked to three other scenes and has to be viewed in that light.
They are:- the first bar scene (Jack & Ennis before they head up the mountain), FNIT, and the scene with Randal and Lashawn.
First and last I realised before but the connection with FNIT passed me by (at least the full implication of it did)
I pretty much get bored with Cassie scenes but they do fulfil an important function, as guides to other things.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: CANSTANDIT on June 16, 2006, 01:06:13 PM
Hi, Minangel.
 I think you are on the money with these connections; Cassie and Randall, IMO, only exist to illustrate the depth of Ennis and Jack's love and interdependency.
They are only there for compare/contrast purposes, and to give each of them food for thought about each other.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: HerrKaiser on June 16, 2006, 01:53:53 PM
you could be right; but it seems cassie and Randall could also be illustrating just the opposite. neither would exist in Jack and Ennis' lives if Jack and Ennis were in a real relationship. Cassie and Randall, to me, don't show the depth of the guys love and interdependency, rather the disconnected, uncommitted manner in which they exist. Without the strength and bond of a commitment the way Jack wanted (and Ennis too except for his fears), they are open to infiltrations from outside. Such infiiltrations serve to show how much more difficult their own relationship is/will be because they do not/cannot make a stand.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: CANSTANDIT on June 16, 2006, 02:15:03 PM
you could be right; but it seems cassie and Randall could also be illustrating just the opposite. neither would exist in Jack and Ennis' lives if Jack and Ennis were in a real relationship. Cassie and Randall, to me, don't show the depth of the guys love and interdependency, rather the disconnected, uncommitted manner in which they exist. Without the strength and bond of a commitment the way Jack wanted (and Ennis too except for his fears), they are open to infiltrations from outside. Such infiiltrations serve to show how much more difficult their own relationship is/will be because they do not/cannot make a stand.
This is a very good point...on Jack's side of things, I think.
I do think, though, that none of these outside bonds are more than superficial, and in Cassie's case, have less to do with a lack of fullfillment in his relationship with Jack, than with keeping up appearances. And that is an old ingrained tune for Ennis.
Perhaps what we are really talking about, it seems, is an apple and an orange:
Could they each love someone else? vs.
Are the flaws in the relationship going to destroy it eventually?

Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: HerrKaiser on June 16, 2006, 02:25:03 PM
yes, I think it is truly and apple and orange. Both jack and Ennis can love someone else; I believe they each loved their wives at some point, for example. But the crisis of the film is how to make a life with an apple and orange situation? Jack's line "this is a Goddamn bitch of an unacceptable situation" defines the near impossibility each man has with trying to be (or needing to be) more than one person (apple and orange); such a dual life is usually quite difficult and almost always frustrating and destined for failure.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: CANSTANDIT on June 16, 2006, 03:26:17 PM
yes, I think it is truly and apple and orange. Both jack and Ennis can love someone else; I believe they each loved their wives at some point, for example. But the crisis of the film is how to make a life with an apple and orange situation? Jack's line "this is a Goddamn bitch of an unacceptable situation" defines the near impossibility each man has with trying to be (or needing to be) more than one person (apple and orange); such a dual life is usually quite difficult and almost always frustrating and destined for failure.
Ok, who's going to do the "fruit" joke, you or me??? ;D ;D
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: HerrKaiser on June 16, 2006, 03:50:54 PM
not me; I'll stick with beans.  :) ;)
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Desecra on June 16, 2006, 11:38:42 PM
you could be right; but it seems cassie and Randall could also be illustrating just the opposite. neither would exist in Jack and Ennis' lives if Jack and Ennis were in a real relationship. Cassie and Randall, to me, don't show the depth of the guys love and interdependency, rather the disconnected, uncommitted manner in which they exist. Without the strength and bond of a commitment the way Jack wanted (and Ennis too except for his fears), they are open to infiltrations from outside. Such infiiltrations serve to show how much more difficult their own relationship is/will be because they do not/cannot make a stand.

Yes, I agree.

And Jack and Ennis don't get together with Randall and Cassie because their love is strong, but because they don't want to be in the situation they're in, if anything.  Ennis and Cassie would never have worked even if it hadn't been for Jack, if Ennis is gay.  And Randall and Jack, for all we know. seemed to work despite Jack's love for Ennis.

So I don't think these characters really show Jack and Ennis's love.  Cassie shows Ennis trying to be straight.  Randall shows that there was an alternative and clarifies the scene at Lightning Flats.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: CANSTANDIT on June 21, 2006, 01:37:24 PM
I have to disagree on the Ennis/Cassie side,because:
Cassie might have worked, adequately,  if Ennis had stayed latent, and he may very well have, had he never met Jack. She is written to be similiar enough to Jack to do the comparison.
This supports IMO, the love that transcends all. Ennis would never have loved anyone like he loved Jack, so he may never had been tempted,ergo, might have remained latent.
In that case, he would actually probably  have stayed with Alma, and become a heavy drinker, to squelch his latent desires.
So, I don't think his gayness would have stopped an adequate hetero relationship, that may have just deteriorated over time; but his love for Jack would-and did.
He and Alma were still smiling at each other when Jack entered the pic; that all changed. His last moments to Cassie are to me, a good-bye to hetero life, upon the heels of Jack's revelations.
(I think there was more potential for Jack to quit with Randall, although I don't believe it happened. )
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: CANSTANDIT on June 21, 2006, 01:40:55 PM
I just picked up something else from the bar scene with Cassie:
I originally thought Ennis was just trying to put her off with the "castrating calves" remark, but-I am reading it differently now.
Do you notice the subdued, sad tone in his voice, and how he does not make eye contact with her? Outside of his normal diffidence, I am reading this:
He is reliving his Earl moments with the calf castration, and it clearly disturbs him, esp in light of his questionable-to him-sexual orientation being brought to light with this woman revealing her attraction to him.
He is very much at odds with his own identity at that moment.
Does that make sense?
Sid, are ya out there??
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Lintelómiel on June 21, 2006, 01:55:09 PM
*rubs hands in anticipation of another Sid/CSI discussion*

Interesting point, Canstandit! I'll have to watch the scene again and see what his expression/intonation tells me... it's been a while. This little moment also illustrates how unfulfilling Ennis's life is, IMO; he gets up in the morning, goes to work, does his things at the ranch, goes home, eats something, has a few beers and smokes at the bar if he's lucky, and goes to bed. Then the cycle starts up again. God, isn't that just heartbreaking? Only two or twice a year does he get to break the pattern and have some time in the mountains with Jack, a brief respite before he goes back to castrating calves.  :'(  I never got the impression that he had any friends in Riverton. I know he's a lone wolf and all, but I imagine that he must have been pretty lonely at times.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: CANSTANDIT on June 21, 2006, 02:02:18 PM
Amen, Lin...
I think Don Wroe is the only mention of a friend, and he's probably a foreman or a rancher that Ennis happens to know, of someone he did favors for.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Lintelómiel on June 21, 2006, 02:07:57 PM
Don Wroe! Of course, how could I forget him? God bless Don Wroe and his cabin - I hope Ennis and Jack did have some good times there, because the sight of that little tent sitting by the stream always makes me sad for some reason. Ennis and Jack, always in those f---ing tents, always in the cold.  :-\
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Desecra on June 21, 2006, 02:25:14 PM
Do you notice the subdued, sad tone in his voice, and how he does not make eye contact with her? Outside of his normal diffidence, I am reading this:
He is reliving his Earl moments with the calf castration, and it clearly disturbs him, esp in light of his questionable-to him-sexual orientation being brought to light with this woman revealing her attraction to him.
He is very much at odds with his own identity at that moment.
Does that make sense?
Sid, are ya out there??

Oh, you might have something there!  It hadn't occurred to me to connect that scene directly to the Earl scene - but of course, that makes sense.  Rather ironic that HE's the one doing the castrating - and presumably the one being castrated too?

There's always something new here! Thank you :)
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: CANSTANDIT on June 21, 2006, 03:28:30 PM

Oh, you might have something there!  It hadn't occurred to me to connect that scene directly to the Earl scene - but of course, that makes sense.  Rather ironic that HE's the one doing the castrating - and presumably the one being castrated too?

There's always something new here! Thank you :)
Tx, Desecra.
Just another damn thing to think about, huh? I tell you, it never stops.
I bet there are 20 other things no one's looked at yet. This is like finding the hidden symbols in those Activity books from childhood!
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Sid401k on June 21, 2006, 03:38:23 PM
**bouncing into the room**
Here I am!

Castrating calives.  I've heard that remark interpreted as a deliberate turn-off to Cassie.  I've heard it described as symbolic of Ennis's lack of sexual interest in Cassie--and women in general.  But I've never connected it with Earl.  It's reasonable to suppose that every time Ennis thinks of homosexuality, he has the memory of Earl in the back of his mind.  But since his main reason for hooking up with a woman is to hide his homosexuality from the world and from himself, it's also reasonable to suppose that the memory of Earl comes up at this time, too.  And Earl was sexually mutilated, hence the connection with the castrated calves.

Interior monologue, Ennis:
Why should I get involved with this woman?  (You probably shouldn't.)
But she's sexy.  (Not.)
She's fun.  (Maybe.)
She sort of reminds me of Jack.  (Let's not go there.)
It will prove I'm not queer and keep me from Earl's fate.  (Bingo.  Do it.)
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: CANSTANDIT on June 21, 2006, 04:07:30 PM
About time you got in here, Muffin401k....
and LOL on your "internal monologue". ;D

Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Lintelómiel on June 21, 2006, 04:09:31 PM

and LOL on your "internal monologue". ;D



I second that.  :)
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Sid401k on June 22, 2006, 07:40:40 PM
**looks around**
CANSTANDIT?  I thought you said to meet you here.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: CANSTANDIT on June 22, 2006, 07:42:17 PM
OMT about the bar scene...
When it first starts, watch Ennis very closely as he sits at the table, before Cassie puts the quarter in the jukebox..I get this "feeling" he is reliving that last argument with Jack in his head; He is clearly going over some dialogue of some kind.
I wonder if he wasn't particularly vulnerable to Cassie's advances at that moment because of it.
It was posted earlier in this thread that the J&E relationship was getting vulnerable to outside interference, hence the introduction of Randall and Cassie, to sort of showcase this.
I don't completely agree, but this new insight would support that theory....
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: CANSTANDIT on June 22, 2006, 08:04:06 PM
Sid, Ok, I'm here...hey, where did ya go?????????
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Sid401k on June 22, 2006, 08:30:24 PM
Went off to capture Beans and Crazies.

Well, now, I've never envisioned Ennis as thinking of anything in particular in the beginning of this scene.  Just killing time with a few beers and a few smokes.  But next time I watch, I'll pay close attention to his face.  I do agree that the little spat in the last fishing trip, taken together with Alma's blow-up at Thanksgiving, would put him in a more vulnerable state.  Maybe that's another part of Cassie's appeal.  Alma despises him; Jack is pissed off at him; people are looking at him suspicious like they know.  But Cassie thinks he's great, even to the point of hot pursuit.  You may be on to something there!
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: CANSTANDIT on July 03, 2006, 04:54:10 PM
Ok...why do we think the script writers inserted a section about Cassie wanting to go to nursing school? To show that Ennis is declining a good catch? Or that he wants to show Jack he can make a good catch, like Lureen? What do you think? She is certainly bright, if blinded by Ennis' natural charms, but...what is in it for her, as the years go by? If we assume she had the same ambition when she first met Ennis, and has not fulfilled it in, what, 3-4 years, is just another way in which she resembles Jack, ie, a dreamer?
She certainly could never mistake him for a meal ticket; what would the future have held for them? He could never have tolerated a women making so much more money than him, right?? ;D

(Let the games continue...)
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: flemishgirl on July 04, 2006, 07:47:50 AM
Just read Sid's reply no 189 about the Cassie "Oh Ennis..girls don't fall in love with fun!" scene. But despite his brilliant exposition I still feel that this is a very flat and empty remark to be delivered wtih such force as if we should sit up and take notice because it is really central to the themes of the movie. Is it? Or is it not a weak point in the script, too well delivered by a fine actress who would have been better served by a stronger line ?

 Or can you correct me, Sid?
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: flemishgirl on July 04, 2006, 08:02:49 AM
Ok...why do we think the script writers inserted a section about Cassie wanting to go to nursing school? To show that Ennis is declining a good catch? Or that he wants to show Jack he can make a good catch, like Lureen? What do you think? She is certainly bright, if blinded by Ennis' natural charms, but...what is in it for her, as the years go by? If we assume she had the same ambition when she first met Ennis, and has not fulfilled it in, what, 3-4 years, is just another way in which she resembles Jack, ie, a dreamer?
She certainly could never mistake him for a meal ticket; what would the future have held for them? He could never have tolerated a women making so much more money than him, right?? ;D

(Let the games continue...)

 Canstandit, I think all your suggestions are valid ones.

I also think it's all part of the idea of showing how the women in the movie are changing and developing from the typical acquiescent and subordinate woman of the past - moving into the workplace, bettering themslves and taking control. Meanwhile the two male protagonists are stuck in the closet. Their (new) version of masculinity is still just too sensitve to be aired. So they have to pretend to be big tough cowboys. The women are leaving them fossilized in the past.

 I don't know that Ennis is meant to be against the liberation of women.Or Cassie going to nursing school, to be specific. He's just not interested in women full stop. Too fixated on his own agony and the impossibility of expressing his own identity. IMO
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Desecra on July 04, 2006, 09:11:19 AM
"Girls don't fall in love with fun" - I never thought of it being a weak line.  However, my first thought when I heard it was 'Oh, yes they do!'.  I certainly did :).
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: flemishgirl on July 04, 2006, 09:32:22 AM
"Girls don't fall in love with fun" - I never thought of it being a weak line.  However, my first thought when I heard it was 'Oh, yes they do!'.  I certainly did :).

Yes, exactly! That's one of the reasons why I think it's not a good line
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Sid401k on July 04, 2006, 02:47:15 PM
"Ennis, girls don't fall in love with fun!"

Well, of course they do.  They fall in love with fun, with mystery, with exuberance, with reticence--in fact, they fall in love with as wide a variety of personality/character traits as boys do.

I've interpreted this line as having the meaning, "Ennis, fun was not why I fell in love with you."  Which should have been crystal clear, because I'm sure Ennis wasn't any fun, anyhow, was he?  But his apologizing for not being fun just puts the icing on the cake for poor Cassie, since it shows how little he's ever understood where she was coming from, what she wanted, what she found appealing in him.  Even if it was just a casual remark, it was just so very much the wrong thing to say to Cassie just then.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Desecra on July 04, 2006, 03:09:42 PM
Even if it was just a casual remark, it was just so very much the wrong thing to say to Cassie just then.

Yes, poor Ennis - he seems to have a talent for saying the wrong thing sometimes.  It's also COULD be interpreted as mildly insulting in that it implies that she was looking for 'fun' when clearly she's been looking for something serious.

But I suppose it also doesn't apply well to what he and Jack fell for - as you say, the whole picture.  INCLUDING fun.  Because they did have fun in those carefree days on Brokeback, and it was one of aspects of each other that they fell in love with.  They didn't fall in love with misery and repression - those were incidental.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Ministering angel on July 04, 2006, 10:42:33 PM
A week or so ago I started talking about the way the first scene with Cassie is linked to three other scenes, then got distracted and never finished the thought. I'm sure there are probably other links but these are the ones I can see (not all my own work, I hasten to add - what's the quote about standing on the shoulders of giants?)

At the beginning of the film Jack and Ennis get to know each other in a bar. Before that they have shaken hands and had the wonderful "Your folks just stop at Ennis?" introduction and then Jack leads Ennis down to the bar. They talk about Jack's first year, rodeoing, and their parents - in Jack's case just his father. In the Cassie scene, Cassie waylays Ennis, grabs his hand, echoes the earlier introductions and leads Ennis to the dance floor. Later they talk and Ennis mentions castrating calves. It might just be that the writers wanted a yucky subject or they might have been linking castrating calves with the boys' fathers - take your pick. I'm inclined to go with the idea that their fathers in some way "emasculated" their sons.

In FNIT, Jack has to wait a month to make his move, has to be in a situation where they are miles from everyone, has to wait until Ennis is "dizzy drunk" until he can once again take Ennis's hand, and put it in his lap, as it were, whereupon Ennis eventually asks "What are you doing?" For Cassie the process is simple. Out in public she can grab a stranger by the hand, dance with him, put her feet in his lap, and when he asks "What are you doing?" she can sweetly answer that she's after a foot rub (have we all seen Pulp Fiction?!) And just to rub it in, "It's So Easy To Fall In Love" plays in the background.

In the following scene Jack meets Randall. Once again the approach has to be subtle, veiled. In the same way that Ennis and Cassie can dance, it's okay for Jack to hold Lashawn in his arms but Randall? No way! (Even if he wanted to - ugh! Please say he didn't want to!!.....But I digress.) Just in case we don't get the link between Cassie and Randall there are music clues. Cassie dances to "Devil's Right Hand" (shades of temptation there) and then the tune which plays at the start of the Randall scene is "Angel Went Up In Flames", a sort of homage to "Devil Went Down To Georgia". I guess everyone gets the "Jack = angel" thing. Make what you will of the tune's title.

Oh, I've just had an evil thought. Admittedly Ennis had drunk enough beer to make a trip to the men's room necessary, but maybe he'd been sitting there thinking of Jack and when "Devil's Right Hand" came on he got inspired to put his particular right hand to good use. Naughty MiniAngel.

The first Cassie scene shows us Ennis doing what he thinks is the right thing since Jack is obviously still doing it with Lureen (or so Ennis believes) and also getting himself some cover around town.

The second Cassie scene is there to show us a relationship going nowhere despite her best efforts. It also allows us to hear Ennis's choice of music - sad stuff, in this case "Melissa" by the Allman Brothers (the ALL MAN BROTHERS? Am I having one of those nights?), a song which has very strong links with Jack and him. The Feb 2003 screenplay had an extra scene with Cassie at a drive-in and Ennis cracking the shits and leaving.

The third one shows us how Ennis has changed after the argument, and much better people than me have talked about all the subtleties of this scene. I don't even like to think about it. There's Ennis looking so utterly bereft and probably thinking his life can't get much worse. To me this scene is showing Ennis in utter turmoil. He knows the relationship with Jack has to change. He has to accept the fact that Jack is queer and so he must be too (I don't think by the time of the argument Ennis really held the belief that somehow he was straight. I think he was confused but coming to an understanding of himself. I think Ennis was the sort who felt that so long as something wasn't spoken about then everything was okay. Take the argument - he knows full well that Jack isn't happy, he suspects Jack screws other men - why else ask about Mexico? - but so long as these things aren't mentioned he can kid himself that somehow they don't quite exist. Once Jack says flatly that he's queer then Ennis can't pretend to himself any longer.) He's broken off with Cassie because he knows it's a relationship based on lies. And then the damned woman mentions LOVE. The very last line in the film that we hear before learning of Jack's death is the very first time anyone mentions love.

If Jack hadn't died, this scene would probably have been the moment of transformation in the film, the moment where Ennis reaches rock-bottom and then either expires or starts making changes. He has dispensed with the artifice in his life, he has IMHO begun to recognise who and what he is, he starts to realise that what he has with Jack is real love, that he, Ennis, is worthy of real love - after all, Cassie loved him.

AND THEN ANNIE PROULX KILLS OFF JACK!!!

I hate this film. I love this film.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Desecra on July 05, 2006, 12:26:36 AM
I think Ennis was the sort who felt that so long as something wasn't spoken about then everything was okay.

This is so true!  I think it shows particularly in the Thanksgiving scene with Alma, where he seems to be desparate to stop her saying what she's going to say.  But it also shows in lots of other scenes, wherre you can see his face twisting as he tries to avoid saying something, or hopes to stop someone else saying something.  What a great observation!
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Ministering angel on July 05, 2006, 12:38:57 AM
I think Ennis was the sort who felt that so long as something wasn't spoken about then everything was okay.

This is so true!  I think it shows particularly in the Thanksgiving scene with Alma, where he seems to be desparate to stop her saying what she's going to say.  But it also shows in lots of other scenes, wherre you can see his face twisting as he tries to avoid saying something, or hopes to stop someone else saying something.  What a great observation!

The sad thing is - I know this because that's how I used to operate! I interpret Ennis very much from my own perspective. I think also that he knew he was having a really hard time of it and was just trying to stand it and he sort of expects Jack to stand it too. As if coming out and saying 'This is shit' is not playing by the rules. Things unsaid and now unsayable. Re. the scenes with Alma, he has a way of looking at her as if daring her to say something and knowing she won't because she's too cowed by him.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: flemishgirl on July 05, 2006, 01:40:41 AM
Brilliant post MiniAngel

 A few observations from me intercalated below.  Hope this works

quote author=Ministering angel link=topic=938.msg334723#msg334723 date=1152074553]

"Later they talk and Ennis mentions castrating calves. It might just be that the writers wanted a yucky subject or they might have been linking castrating calves with the boys' fathers - take your pick. I'm inclined to go with the idea that their fathers in some way "emasculated" their sons."

I've often wondered whether this remark isn't meant to be paired to Ennis's "balls on him the size of apples" of earlier in the movie. That's how he talks about balls when he really wants to attract someone. Here he's trying to put Cassie off.

"In FNIT, Jack has to wait a month to make his move, has to be in a situation where they are miles from everyone, has to wait until Ennis is "dizzy drunk" until he can once again take Ennis's hand, and put it in his lap, as it were, whereupon Ennis eventually asks "What are you doing?" For Cassie the process is simple. Out in public she can grab a stranger by the hand, dance with him, put her feet in his lap, and when he asks "What are you doing?" she can sweetly answer that she's after a foot rub (have we all seen Pulp Fiction?!) And just to rub it in, "It's So Easy To Fall In Love" plays in the background."

 I really like what you've said here. Ennis's hand in Jack's lap indeed! LOL.

But  it's such a good point that the homosexual courting had to be done so very covertly whereas heterosexual flirting was completely out in the open, almost banal. I hadn't thought before about how this scene illustrates that . And you've also made me realise how the songs on the soundtrack can also seem banal but in a way are meant to. The language of heterosexual love has become debased. It is the commercial currency of a prosaic post-lapsarian world. Ennis's inability to speak his love for Jack is therefore significant. There is no language for homsexual love. It belongs to the pre-lapsarian world of Brokeback - a million miles awy from the bar, the jukebox, Cassie.

 I'm off to the soundtrack thread now to post something more about this.

"In the following scene Jack meets Randall. Once again the approach has to be subtle, veiled. In the same way that Ennis and Cassie can dance, it's okay for Jack to hold Lashawn in his arms but Randall? No way! (Even if he wanted to - ugh! Please say he didn't want to!!.....But I digress.) Just in case we don't get the link between Cassie and Randall there are music clues. Cassie dances to "Devil's Right Hand" (shades of temptation there) and then the tune which plays at the start of the Randall scene is "Angel Went Up In Flames", a sort of homage to "Devil Went Down To Georgia". I guess everyone gets the "Jack = angel" thing. Make what you will of the tune's title."

 Can you explain this a little more please? I dont know Devil Went Down to Georgia myself

Oh, I've just had an evil thought. Admittedly Ennis had drunk enough beer to make a trip to the men's room necessary, but maybe he'd been sitting there thinking of Jack and when "Devil's Right Hand" came on he got inspired to put his particular right hand to good use. Naughty MiniAngel.

 ha ha great

Quote
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Desecra on July 05, 2006, 05:42:38 AM
Interesting thoughts about 'picik up' scenes.  I posted something about the contrast between them some time ago - I think it's very interesting.  We are shown these pick up scenes:

Jack/Ennis - one month's preparation, then wordless sexual/genital advance
Jack/Jimbo - indirect, ambiguous and cautious approach [buying a drink], no physical contact
Lureen/Jack - direct approach, verbal sexual advance ['mating call' - could she be more direct? :)] followed by sex
Randall/Jack - indirect, ambiguous  and cautious approach [suggests fishing trips] - no physical contact
Cassie/Ennis - direct approach [asks to dance] and physical/sexual contact - feet in crotch

I thought these different approaches clearly illustrate the difficulties of gay men compared to straight women.  About the worst the straight women have to fear is rejection and they can be direct as they like.  Gay men have to fear violence, social ostracisation, etc. if they make a wrong move on a wrong guy, and in this film they have to use a much more subtle approach.

However, what's really interesting is that Randall's approach is seen as the most direct and offensive.  Maybe this shows how entrenched these ideas are. 
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: lauren on July 05, 2006, 09:04:44 AM

The third one shows us how Ennis has changed after the argument, and much better people than me have talked about all the subtleties of this scene. I don't even like to think about it. There's Ennis looking so utterly bereft and probably thinking his life can't get much worse. To me this scene is showing Ennis in utter turmoil. He knows the relationship with Jack has to change. He has to accept the fact that Jack is queer and so he must be too (I don't think by the time of the argument Ennis really held the belief that somehow he was straight. I think he was confused but coming to an understanding of himself. I think Ennis was the sort who felt that so long as something wasn't spoken about then everything was okay. Take the argument - he knows full well that Jack isn't happy, he suspects Jack screws other men - why else ask about Mexico? - but so long as these things aren't mentioned he can kid himself that somehow they don't quite exist. Once Jack says flatly that he's queer then Ennis can't pretend to himself any longer.) He's broken off with Cassie because he knows it's a relationship based on lies. And then the damned woman mentions LOVE. The very last line in the film that we hear before learning of Jack's death is the very first time anyone mentions love.

If Jack hadn't died, this scene would probably have been the moment of transformation in the film, the moment where Ennis reaches rock-bottom and then either expires or starts making changes. He has dispensed with the artifice in his life, he has IMHO begun to recognise who and what he is, he starts to realise that what he has with Jack is real love, that he, Ennis, is worthy of real love - after all, Cassie loved him.

AND THEN ANNIE PROULX KILLS OFF JACK!!!

I hate this film. I love this film.

Some very good observations. Diana O. said in the pie scene with Cassie that Ennis realizes he is in love and has been in love with Jack all those years- It's really sad he comes to this realization and then Jack dies. Drives me crazy. I feel certain Ennis would have made changes to please Jack and  to better their relationship. That's why he cuts things off with Cassie. Ennis always came through for Jack once he heard aloud what Jack needed or wanted. He may have guessed or wondered about some things but he wasn't a mind reader. Thanks for passing along your observation about the chair and the ash tray in the trailer. I never noticed that. I'll have to check that out.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: CANSTANDIT on July 05, 2006, 11:37:24 AM
A lot of great observations:
Sid and I went round about alot of this a few months ago, but not with all of this connecting detail! It's great!!

A couple of more things:
-I do think the mention of castrating calves helps drive Ennis to Cassie; It aids in his self-delusion about his "queer"-ness. Because, she immediately becomes sexually direct with him-allowing him to dissociate from the Earl trauma, triggered by the calves- and he responds, at least emotionally, if not physically. That, to me, is what gets the ball rolling for Ennis and Cassie.
Not that it does anything more than dribble down to half court.. ;)
(note the shot of her feet next to his crotch-no reponse from him. Most men I know would be "responding" to this gesture, esp after dancing with the woman...), and;
-The "bookend" of Jack and Cassie scenes, in terms of approaching Ennis and forcing him to at least think about his sexuality, to me, drives the story in a major way, in terms of clearly answering the question: Is Ennis really gay? Well, of course he is: Cassie is the female Jack, and, as been said, if he didn't respond to her, he was not going to respond to any woman.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: flemishgirl on July 05, 2006, 11:50:35 AM
Dear Canstandit i wish i could write as well as you

You ask is Ennis really gay and answer yourself -of course he is

I think the whole point of this site, of the film, everything, is that we're all gay to a certain extent  - if we let down our inhibitions.

 ("straight" married woman, two  children aged twenty and twenty -two here. My children's sexuality still -quite rightly -undefined)

 Plea for liberalism froma an English woman living in Belgium. Shit; you americans won"t know where that is. Answer me!
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: CANSTANDIT on July 05, 2006, 01:09:27 PM
Dear Canstandit i wish i could write as well as you

You ask is Ennis really gay and answer yourself -of course he is

I think the whole point of this site, of the film, everything, is that we're all gay to a certain extent  - if we let down our inhibitions.

 ("straight" married woman, two  children aged twenty and twenty -two here. My children's sexuality still -quite rightly -undefined)

 Plea for liberalism froma an English woman living in Belgium. Shit; you americans won"t know where that is. Answer me!

Flemishgirl,
Hah! I'm having a hard time believing there is a European country out there more uptight than we Americans, truly, for all our espousing of this and that....
Hi, there, by the way! tx for the feedback.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: flemishgirl on July 05, 2006, 01:41:08 PM
it's not more uptight here than anywhere else particularly but we've all got a long way to go to before we can be at ease between the sexes haven't we?
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Ministering angel on July 05, 2006, 11:29:01 PM
Can you explain this a little more please? I dont know Devil Went Down to Georgia myself

The song Devil Went Down to Georgia is one of those great fiddle tunes and the tune which was written for the film, Angel Went Up In Flames, is very like it (had my 10yo granddaughter very puzzled!) I just figure that's so we make the connection with Devil's Right Hand in the previous scene, and also the idea that Jack is about to get his fingers/wings burned by playing with Randall (an activity which might have eventually led to his death - or maybe not).
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: flemishgirl on July 06, 2006, 01:45:31 AM
Interesting- thanks a lot
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: desperadum on July 06, 2006, 11:38:51 AM
Flemishgirl, I can't remember if I properly welcomed you here, so, if not, I trust you feel welcome. A little more extrapolation on The Devil Went Down to George - it was a crossover country hit tune in the US about 20 years ago by a group called the Charlie Daniels Band, and fiddle playing was very prominent in it. I noticed the similarities to Devil's Right Hand immediately.

Also, I have visited Brussels and Brugges, so I know exactly where Belgium is!
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: flemishgirl on July 07, 2006, 01:03:00 AM
Desperadum  really sweet of you to give me a personal welcome. Don't know if I've been feeling welcomeMore like  a bit overawed like the new girl in the school actually but on the whole I like being here. Certainly keep coming back don't I?

THANK YOU for knowing Belgium! Memories of a family trip to the States five years ago when we were reguarly greeted by blank looks when we told people we lved in Belgium. Europe seemd to work but was a bit imprecise for us.......
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: CANSTANDIT on July 13, 2006, 09:05:43 PM
Does anyone think Cassie would EVER have figured Ennis out? How would she have reacted finding out he was gay and would never be able to love her as fully as she wanted? Would she be more heartbroken or more enraged? How do you read her?
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Sid401k on July 13, 2006, 09:58:08 PM
Pure speculation follows--just one step above fanfic, okay?

I have envisioned her as possibly falling in love with a series of gay men.  Something about them just attracts her.  Anybody's gaydar go off at Carl?  I could picture her, two or three failed relationships down the road, coming back to Ennis (as the one man she's sure is straight) to ask him again what happened and why he didn't find her worth hanging onto.

I can't imagine him coming out to her on his own, but if she broke down and told of her other relationship failures, he might indirectly let her know that her count is higher than she thought.  Whether she'd be heartbroken or enraged is anybody's guess, but she'd be devastated, that's for sure.  Her reactions would be directed at her own choices though, and not at Ennis.  It could be healing for both of them.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: CANSTANDIT on July 14, 2006, 10:42:35 AM
Interesting, Sid...You pointed something out about Carl; in some other thread, I speculated that he is ironically a  Jack-reminder: Tall, blue-eyed, slim, solicitious. Oh, it might have been this thread, who knows.
But now you're taking it further, and thinking she may be picking gay gents. Well that would certainly fit in with basic human psychology. We befriend, date and sometimes marry our own issues.
Cassie has suddenly become an even more interesting character, hasn't she?

Oh, yeah, he com da fic, he com da fic......
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Desecra on July 14, 2006, 11:51:16 AM
Anybody's gaydar go off at Carl?

Oh no!  Poor Cassie!  I'm trying to hope that she, at least, eventually gets a happy ending - don't spoil it!  If this is the case, I wonder if Carl guessed about Ennis too?
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Sid401k on July 14, 2006, 07:16:44 PM
In some...thread, I speculated that [Carl] is ironically a Jack-reminder: Tall, blue-eyed, slim, solicitious.
Innnteresting, indeed!  Ironical, too.
Plus he's also got a pornstache.
Here are a couple of pictures to demonstrate.
(http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h98/Sid401k/carl.jpg)
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: CANSTANDIT on July 14, 2006, 07:22:33 PM
In some...thread, I speculated that [Carl] is ironically a Jack-reminder: Tall, blue-eyed, slim, solicitious.
Innnteresting, indeed!  Ironical, too.
Plus he's also got a pornstache.
Here are a couple of pictures to demonstrate.
(http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h98/Sid401k/carl.jpg)
Would it be disloyal for me to say I think he's attractive? The way he is towards her when she is "confronting" Ennis seems to me to be somewhat typical of an angry alpha male, sensing a threat to his territory. Of course, that does not mean he is not gay; Ennis was pretty territorial with Alma and the girls during the bikers verbal onslaught on 7/4. Yeah, the more I think about it, you might be right, Sid. Cassie might be making the same bad call again.
EEEchhh! She should just concentrate on Nursin' School, or somethin', I don't know....
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Lintelómiel on July 15, 2006, 01:08:09 AM
Would it be disloyal for me to say I think he's attractive?

No, actually I think I agree with you. Carl is a hunk!  ;D
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Sid401k on July 15, 2006, 01:14:57 AM
Would it be disloyal for me to say I think he's attractive?
No, actually I think I agree with you. Carl is a hunk!  ;D
He even talks!
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Desecra on July 15, 2006, 01:24:52 AM
Would it be disloyal for me to say I think he's attractive? The way he is towards her when she is "confronting" Ennis seems to me to be somewhat typical of an angry alpha male, sensing a threat to his territory. Of course, that does not mean he is not gay; Ennis was pretty territorial with Alma and the girls during the bikers verbal onslaught on 7/4. Yeah, the more I think about it, you might be right, Sid. Cassie might be making the same bad call again.
EEEchhh! She should just concentrate on Nursin' School, or somethin', I don't know....

He's not bad, is he?  Mind you, I'm one of the few who wouldn't say no to Randall, so what do I know?

I didn't see him as being territorial though - quite the opposite.  He stays back to let Cassie go and have her talk with her not-quite-yet ex, which I thought was kind of big of him.  Some guys would have come over with her.  He seems more annoyed that Ennis has hurt her, than that she has feelings for him [of course, another clue that he may be gay!].

My impression was that he seemed a nice enough guy, but perhaps not inspiring of passion - similar to Monroe in a sense.  It's difficult to judge on what we see of him, but I wondered if Cassie had 'settled' for him.   I mentioned earlier about Ennis's lovers having to settle for second best instead of their real love - Alma/Monroe, Cassie/Carl, Jack/Randall.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: doggedstrength on July 15, 2006, 01:39:44 AM
on the subject of carl, i wonder what others make of cassie's carefully measured, understated reply to ennis' "anyway, it looks like i got the message".  he says this with a nod toward carl, scoring a point, i would guess ennis imagines, by indicating that cassie apparently has taken up with another man.

i'm fascinated at that point by cassie's slightly dismayed glance toward carl and then her turn back to ennis to deliver her stunning deadpan response:  "carl?  yeah, carl's nice.  he even talks."

that line always slays me.   cassie is not only beautiful but smart.  the sly subtext of her witty throwaway seems to be, roughly, "yes, that's right, carl talks, which is more than you ever did, ennis, with your strong-silent-type ducking and dodging."

cassie is one tough lady.  i admire her.  she picked wrong with ennis, but, dammit, it wasn't her fault.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Desecra on July 15, 2006, 01:47:49 AM
I admire Cassie too.  I like the way that she doesn't let Ennis's unfair comments ['looks like I got the message', 'good for you'] rile her, and keeps pushing for an answer and an apology.  Quite right too.  It almost helps to make up for Alma not getting HER apology.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: mouk on July 16, 2006, 11:10:23 AM
I have just read this whole thread. Waow, what wonderful insights. Who would have thought that after 7 months we still have not discovered everything about those few Cassie scenes? This is in itself a homage to the genius of Ang Lee and all those who made this film.

Having read a post saying that, in the second dance scene, the man with the black hat shows that Ennis is thinking of Jack, I wonder if we could take this argument further to cover the significance of his tattooed dancing partner. This woman is rather mysterious. Her face is hidden, her tattooes hide much of her body. To me (I hope I don’t offend anybody by saying that) she is spooky and most unattractive. And yet she and her man are in a close, loving embrace, contrasting with the half hearted embrace offered by Ennis to his very pretty Cassie.

Which leads me to the following take:
Ennis, as we all know, is putting a hetero front by dancing with Cassie, but he is ill at ease and clumsy in this role, hence the fidgeting with the cigarette, the closed attitude etc

The tattooed woman may well represent the side of Ennis that he wants to hide, because he thinks it’s his ugly and shameful. His gay side. And yet it is this ‘ugly creature’ that Jack accepts whole-heartedly, embraces passionately and who feels comfortable in Jacks arms, as shown by the warm embrace of the dancers.  Ennis chose to play Melissa, his mind is with Jack and right now he would give anything to be in his arms, not in those of Cassie, even if this means turning into this creature that he hates.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: CANSTANDIT on July 18, 2006, 03:29:28 PM
I have just read this whole thread. Waow, what wonderful insights. Who would have thought that after 7 months we still have not discovered everything about those few Cassie scenes? This is in itself a homage to the genius of Ang Lee and all those who made this film.

Having read a post saying that, in the second dance scene, the man with the black hat shows that Ennis is thinking of Jack, I wonder if we could take this argument further to cover the significance of his tattooed dancing partner. This woman is rather mysterious. Her face is hidden, her tattooes hide much of her body. To me (I hope I don’t offend anybody by saying that) she is spooky and most unattractive. And yet she and her man are in a close, loving embrace, contrasting with the half hearted embrace offered by Ennis to his very pretty Cassie.

Which leads me to the following take:
Ennis, as we all know, is putting a hetero front by dancing with Cassie, but he is ill at ease and clumsy in this role, hence the fidgeting with the cigarette, the closed attitude etc

The tattooed woman may well represent the side of Ennis that he wants to hide, because he thinks it’s his ugly and shameful. His gay side. And yet it is this ‘ugly creature’ that Jack accepts whole-heartedly, embraces passionately and who feels comfortable in Jacks arms, as shown by the warm embrace of the dancers.  Ennis chose to play Melissa, his mind is with Jack and right now he would give anything to be in his arms, not in those of Cassie, even if this means turning into this creature that he hates.

OMG-now that is creative thinking at it's best. You are blowing me away, Mouk, and that ain't easy.....That "feels" right to me.....
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: lauren on July 18, 2006, 03:53:42 PM
I have just read this whole thread. Waow, what wonderful insights. Who would have thought that after 7 months we still have not discovered everything about those few Cassie scenes? This is in itself a homage to the genius of Ang Lee and all those who made this film.

Having read a post saying that, in the second dance scene, the man with the black hat shows that Ennis is thinking of Jack, I wonder if we could take this argument further to cover the significance of his tattooed dancing partner. This woman is rather mysterious. Her face is hidden, her tattooes hide much of her body. To me (I hope I don’t offend anybody by saying that) she is spooky and most unattractive. And yet she and her man are in a close, loving embrace, contrasting with the half hearted embrace offered by Ennis to his very pretty Cassie.

Which leads me to the following take:
Ennis, as we all know, is putting a hetero front by dancing with Cassie, but he is ill at ease and clumsy in this role, hence the fidgeting with the cigarette, the closed attitude etc

The tattooed woman may well represent the side of Ennis that he wants to hide, because he thinks it’s his ugly and shameful. His gay side. And yet it is this ‘ugly creature’ that Jack accepts whole-heartedly, embraces passionately and who feels comfortable in Jacks arms, as shown by the warm embrace of the dancers.  Ennis chose to play Melissa, his mind is with Jack and right now he would give anything to be in his arms, not in those of Cassie, even if this means turning into this creature that he hates.

OMG-now that is creative thinking at it's best. You are blowing me away, Mouk, and that ain't easy.....That "feels" right to me.....

My god. I'm going to have to watch this scene again. Very interesting analysis. I've noticed the black hats near Ennis because of what others have mentioned about this. I don't think I would have caught that subtlety. Now I'm looking at every man around the both of them in every dance scene  :)

I did feel Carl was straight because he seemed territorial about Cassie, even though he does give her space to talk things out with her ex "boyfriend." He protectively walks her out and gives Ennis a snarling look. He does look similar to Jack, though. Mmmm. But, so true that Cassie is the female Jack and that the fact she does nothing for him and he drops her makes it evident he's gay (well, I always knew Ennis was gay, no doubts there.) I was glad this was made very clear in the Cassie scene. Interesting observation from Des or CANSTANDIT about the feet in the lap and how he doesn't respond. I guess they'rd be a lot more enthuisastic response. i.e. fidgeting in the lower body.  ;)
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: CANSTANDIT on July 18, 2006, 05:27:55 PM
That was a post Sid and I threw back and forth a few months ago; a hetero male would be, excuse me, hard by the time he got back to the table, don't you think? Dance and drink do an arousing experience make.
So Ennis', being toasty, getting attention from an attractive woman, physical contact, "dancing" with her, and having her feet in his lap, should have caused something to happen.
Interesting, but that little moment kind of cinched it for me, and allowed me to get down to brass tacks on Enni's basic physiological responses: Cassie was the female Jack, so it wasn't her, it wasn't going to be any woman.
Sorry for the repeats...
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: lauren on July 18, 2006, 06:57:54 PM
That was a post Sid and I threw back and forth a few months ago; a hetero male would be, excuse me, hard by the time he got back to the table, don't you think? Dance and drink do an arousing experience make.
So Ennis', being toasty, getting attention from an attractive woman, physical contact, "dancing" with her, and having her feet in his lap, should have caused something to happen.
Interesting, but that little moment kind of cinched it for me, and allowed me to get down to brass tacks on Enni's basic physiological responses: Cassie was the female Jack, so it wasn't her, it wasn't going to be any woman.
Sorry for the repeats...

So it was you. Thanks for repeating. I certainly see what you mean. There's no response there at all. I've gotten used to looking at crotches in this film (someone's got to do the job  ;) but I've never been sure if I'm seeing erections that are supposed to be there or if the actors accidentally got a hard on at the right moment (Ennis and Jack together) or if erections are absent on purpose, as in this scene. I think you're right, that lack of an erection is a definite sign in this scene. As a side note, I've also concluded Ennis has an erection while looking at Jack riding his unruly mare in the camp, when he introduces Jack to Alma, and Jack definitely has one while he's showing off his belt buckle.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: CANSTANDIT on July 18, 2006, 07:02:16 PM
Oh, boy....

{rubs her hands together, gets ready to drive back home and watch "certain" scenes, ONE MORE TIIME...at least.... ;D ;) ;D-Well, someone's got to do the job???]
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Lintelómiel on July 18, 2006, 11:01:33 PM
... and Jack definitely has one while he's showing off his belt buckle.

Can a man have an erection after just having peed? Yes, I'm asking this because I have no idea and seriously want to know.  :)
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: desperadum on July 18, 2006, 11:19:35 PM
... and Jack definitely has one while he's showing off his belt buckle.
Can a man have an erection after just having peed? Yes, I'm asking this because I have no idea and seriously want to know.  :)

Affirmative. Before, during and after.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Lintelómiel on July 19, 2006, 01:28:49 AM
Thanks for your expert insight, Des. I'm learning something new every day since I joined this forum.  ;)
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: desperadum on July 22, 2006, 03:17:05 PM
It's not an insight I'm often called upon to share...

Back to the topic at hand, I find mouk's observations interesting and confess I never paid much attention to the others in the bar. I will have to check that out again. Thanks, mouk.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Marge_Innavera on August 07, 2006, 09:57:14 AM
I think the whole point of this site, of the film, everything, is that we're all gay to a certain extent  - if we let down our inhibitions. . .  Plea for liberalism froma an English woman living in Belgium. Shit; you americans won"t know where that is. Answer me!

Some of us do.... that's that little country south of the Netherlands and west of Germany that colonized quite a chunk of Africa for awhile. And doesn't Brussels have the headquarters of the EU? (Just don't give me a pop-quiz on the Balkans!)

IMO, it would be more accurate to say that sexual orientation is a continuum, with a minority of people being completely on one extreme or the other, than to say 'we're all gay to a certain extent'.  The two statements might eventually arrive at the same destination but in that case, it would be just as accurate to say 'we're all heterosexual to some extent'.

"The Devil Went Down To Georgia" is a 'story' song about the Devil challenging a Georgia boy to a fiddling contest, the forfeit being his soul if he loses. The kid takes the challenge and the risk, beats the Devil at his own game through his musical skill.

BTW, are you Flemish-speaking, or is it mostly French now with Flemish an "endangered" language?
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Sandy on August 07, 2006, 10:28:33 AM
Marge,

Flemish is the variety of the Dutch language spoken south of the Scheldt estuary, primarily in Belgium. While dialectal differences exist between Dutch spoken in the Netherlands and in Belgium, the two varieties are mutually intelligible. Neither is an endangered language.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: CANSTANDIT on August 07, 2006, 06:36:07 PM
Marge,

Flemish is the variety of the Dutch language spoken south of the Scheldt estuary, primarily in Belgium. While dialectal differences exist between Dutch spoken in the Netherlands and in Belgium, the two varieties are mutually intelligible. Neither is an endangered language.

Doesn't Flemish have some French language influences??
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Sandy on August 07, 2006, 08:18:17 PM
All Dutch dialects have some French influence, but it is admittedly greater in the south where Dutch and French overlap. Still in standardizing the langauge, Vlaams in Belgium has looked to the northern Hollands. You can pm me for a reference if you wish.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: CANSTANDIT on August 07, 2006, 10:30:55 PM
All Dutch dialects have some French influence, but it is admittedly greater in the south where Dutch and French overlap. Still in standardizing the langauge, Vlaams in Belgium has looked to the northern Hollands. You can pm me for a reference if you wish.
Yeah, I'll jump right on that.....Thanks, but if I PM you, friend, it's going to be to dish some real dirt, not talk about some boobasexual linguistic origin thingy..... ;D ;D
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Marc on August 16, 2006, 10:48:24 AM
When Cassie walks into the diner w/ Carl, there are two quiet coughs or ahems, which prompt her to turn her head and notice Ennis.  I'm sure the coughs come from Ennis.  Ah, but are they deliberate?
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: CANSTANDIT on September 15, 2006, 05:10:56 PM
I think so, because he does them when he is nervous, or in new situations:
-getting out of the truck in the first scene, as he begins walking towards town;
-at the dinner table with Alma at Thanksgiving;
and one or two other times, I think.
Good catch.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: CANSTANDIT on September 22, 2006, 10:12:09 PM
I'm not sure this was discussed in the thread, at least not specifically:

-Desecra pointed out that there is no split between E & C in the book; the relationship, which we may assume, in the book is also about Ennis using a woman as a cover-unaware of course-and in the only 1 referenceto her, the relationship is on its way out-"she had problems he didn't want".

So we know that the relationship Ennis mentioned was not a lie, if we believe the film; in fact, she was actually at his home drinking and HEAVEN KNOWS WHAT ELSE, THE HUSSY.....
In the film, she is the hollywood siren, good-looking, energetic, free, willing, etc.
In the book, all we know is she is a waitress with "problems" that we sense Ennis is backing off from conceptually in the Last Scene.

My questions:
How do you interpret, "She had problems he didn't want." Is it literal to you? I suspect this really means, I can't meet her needs, but I can't admit it, cuz that might mean I'm queer. thoughts?
and
What is the mention of the bottle of wine about in the film scripst? Why does Ennis keep it in his fridge? Why doesn't he chuck it? Is he unable to part with things-Is that why he cannot leave Jack, as Des says? Is this about abandonment? or is he pathetically reminding himself that he was attractive to a woman, so again, he must not be queer....Can he still be in denial, even after the Shirts? after his dreams? The timing is fuzzy to me in the film, other than that Jack has died and Jr is 19.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Desecra on September 23, 2006, 01:10:39 AM
I'm glad you brought this over here - there are some things I wanted to discuss too.

I read the book first, and I felt that 'Cassie' was just what Ennis said in response to Jack's question about not finding someone marry.  [Last time this was mentioned, by Alma, it led to a confrontation about Ennis's sexuality.  He now knows that 'once burned' isn't going to deflect it].  I agree with you about her 'problems that he didn't want'. 

Gres pointed out in another thread that it was odd that Ennis never mentions her before.  In the book, I get the impression that he met her after the previous meeting, but in the film it's a relationship of several years standing.  Was this just a mistake on the part of the filmmakers?  I tend to think so :).  There was no reason for Ennis not to mention Cassie to Jack over those years.

The timing at the end of the film.  In the script it's 1984.  Cassie and Ennis split up in 1981, so it's 3 years later [Although in the script, Ennis doesn't get the postcard until 1982 - I thnk this is definitely a mistake - so maybe it's 2 years].  So that 'legacy of Cassie' thing threw me.  It's a half-empty [not half-full  ;D] bottle of wine.  If this really is an opened bottle of wine that Ennis and Cassie drunk together, then it's not going to be very drinkable three years later.  It can't be one that was already opened by Cassie then.  It must have been a full bottle, which Ennis has already started drinking.  He's keeping it in the fridge too, which suggests to me that he's currently 'using' it.  So what prompted Ennis to open that bottle of wine, maybe that day or the day before?  There are no clues. 

However, it's possible that all 'a legacy of Cassie' means is that Cassie changed his tastes from beer to wine [and I'm sure there must be more symbolism there than I'm looking for at the moment :)].  He may have had several full bottles still in the trailer when he split up with Cassie and has been slowly drinking them [very slowly!].  Or maybe he actually buys wine now, rather than beer. 

If his taste has change to wine, it could mean like you say, that he's still hanging on to that bit of 'straightness', and being attractive to women.  Could it possibly mean that he's accepting a less 'masculine' side of himself, though?  [Although [cheap, straight from the bottle] wine-drinking used to be seen as pretty masculine back in my youth - as it was stronger than beer - I'm just wondering]. 
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: doggedstrength on September 23, 2006, 03:59:30 AM
CSI and Des, i love your musings here and share in them and really don't have a thing to add.  Des, you're especially acute about wine.  is the wine a sign of ennis "jaunty" -- though i realize that's not a word one would actually use to describe ennis -- or ennis "macho-sorrowful"?

but, Des, i need some factual help.  why exactly do you say that in the movie the ennis-cassie relationship lasted several years?  i had the impression that it was many months, in the range of a year or so, not several years.  cassie didn't seem to age a great deal.  when they're in the bar with alma, jr. it doesn't seem like cassie has known ennis for years, and once alma jr. suggests that ennis isn't the marrying kind, can cassie actually have gone on for years afterwards supposing that he might be?

also, the way cassie speaks in the bus depot about messages left at ennis' place and with his boss, i got the feeling that those exchanges occurred over three or four very frustrating months for cassie after ennis suddenly stopped being available, after they'd been seeing each other for, roughly, a year or so. 

if the relationship had been going on for years and then ennis broke it off, why would carl even be needed in the scene?  the way cassie describes carl to ennis -- "carl?  yeah, carl's nice.  he even talks" -- with its nicely-aimed putdown of ennis' taciturnity, makes it seem that to ennis ("looks like you did all right for yourself") carl is a fairly recent, but understandable, replacement for him, since ennis, by his reckoning, anyway, didn't figure importantly enough long enough in cassie's life.  i believe cassie when she says that she fell in love with ennis, but in the bus depot she didn't look or sound like a woman who's thrown years of her life away on a man who, after several years, abruptly decided he wouldn't reciprocate any more.  also, i doubt that ennis could deceive, as well as have semi-regular sex with, any woman for several years.  jack calls to his psyche too deeply.  do you see my question?
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Desecra on September 23, 2006, 04:28:21 AM
DS, my feelings about Cassie are as you describe, and I didn't pick up on the length of the relationship when I first watched the film.  The 'years' come from the screenplay - Cassie picks Ennis up in 1978 and leaves hiim in 1981.  So it's three years.  The scene with Alma Jr is in 1979, so yes, Cassie goes on for another couple of years after hearing Ennis isn't the marrying kind.  I agree with you - it doesn't ring true.  I'm also still left puzzling about why Ennis, always keen to show his straight credentials, never once mentions to Jack that he's involved in a serious long-term relationship with a woman - not until Jack asks.

I sometimes wonder how far the writers actually thought through the timing.  Jack's death doesn't 'fit' either - the timing doesn't make any sense.  [He doesn't die until 1982, the year after the last meeting and after Ennis and Cassie split up].   Why did they chose 1978 for the Cassie/Randall intros?  Why not 1980?  Why have the last meeting in 1981, and Jack's death in 1982, when in the book that doesn't happen until 1983?

It's all very frustrating.  I don't know how much it changes the meaning of the Ennis/Cassie relationship, and I don't know if it's MEANT to change the meaning.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Vermont sunset on September 23, 2006, 05:47:58 AM
That bottle of wine. That little tidbit demonstrates some of the truly irreconcilable and incomprehensible details that vary from short story to movie, and in this case from the screenplay to the movie. Of course this scene isn't even mentioned in the short story. And watching the movie you would never suspect that half empty bottle of "cheap" white wine was a "legacy"  of Cassie. Why would you ever think that? It's not as if  Ennis says, "well Jr.,  let's finish off this old bottle of wine from Cassie, can't think of a better use for it." It is only when reading the screen play that we discover this fact. As a general rule that type of information if mentioned in the screenplay has to be conveyed to the viewer in some manner. It never was. What symbolic message was trying to be conveyed, that And Lee decided was best left untouched, perhaps out of concern that it woud detract from the power of the last scene? That scene was all about the power of love and his relationship with Jack.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: CANSTANDIT on September 23, 2006, 08:17:40 AM
Thanks, Des, for your as usual, brilliant detailed analysis-it never occurred to me about the symbolism. That was sharp. And the timing drives me insane-almost....
DS-I share your frustration with the damn timing, but as Des says, the filmmakers-unrealistically to me-have altered both the waitress and the ranch neighbor timings, possibly to do what several posters have hypothesized; Shown either
A) That the relationship has become more tenuous, so outside parties can more easily wedge in; or
B)The relationship is so strong, that even outside parties, over several year's time, can only to varying degrees wedge their way in.

If you believe that "Q" happened, then Randall was a success story, but Cassie was not. So, that may show, if you agree with this position, than Ennis can simply not leave his rut, nor deliberately be without Jack. All attempts will fail. Cassie in the film was, after all the female version of Jack, in a way.

You've got me thinking about the wine: One need for it in the scene is the symbolic 'sacrament' of marriage-Alma getting Ennis' blessing; Ennis giving his own blessing to his newfound concept of "love" for Jack. So there was a need for it to be there, if you do the symbolic take, and in fact I see no other reason for it to be there. But knowing Ang Lee's trickiness, I wonder if we are not supposed to wonder what he is doing with a bottle of wine, ie, has he been 'aged' nicely by his relationship with Jack, like a bottle of wine, emotionally? Or is he aging now? Figuratively? Maybe they want us to get a sense that he is mellowing out, esp after Jack's demise.

I do like Des' idea that he could be hanging onto his 'straightness', ie the man and the woman sharing a bottle of wine; or maybe, since he is sharing it with Alma jr, he is paying tribute to his straight hopes for her. Maybe, too, the bottle of wine tells us , sadly, Ennis' days of whiskey with Jack are officially over....He will be chaste going forward. His daughter will take up the relationship charge from him; he's had it.
Hell if I know.

(Joke: what do you get when you cross a rhinoceros with an elephant?

"Elephino!")
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: jnov on September 25, 2006, 08:38:28 AM
lauren wrote:
So it was you. Thanks for repeating. I certainly see what you mean. There's no response there at all. I've gotten used to looking at crotches in this film (someone's got to do the job   but I've never been sure if I'm seeing erections that are supposed to be there or if the actors accidentally got a hard on at the right moment (Ennis and Jack together) or if erections are absent on purpose, as in this scene. I think you're right, that lack of an erection is a definite sign in this scene. As a side note, I've also concluded Ennis has an erection while looking at Jack riding his unruly mare in the camp, when he introduces Jack to Alma, and Jack definitely has one while he's showing off his belt buckle.

okay, i am imagining ang saying to heath: now in this scene you have just finished dancing with cassie and you're not physically attracted to her cause you're gay so when she puts her feet in your lap make sure you don't get an erection.  now... ACTION.
LMAO  :D
i'm sorry guys but it seems to me to be stretching 'ACTING' a bit far to expect the actors to physically control their penises to add meaning to a scene.  but that's just me.  ::)

CSI wrote:
And the timing [of ennis and cassie's relationship] drives me insane-almost....

do what i do - ignore it!  ;D
okay, i know for you that would be impossible.  i believe you post on the symbolism thread, right?  ;D ;) ;D

but on a somewhat serious note.  as desecra notes, the timing comes from the screenplay.  i read the short story once.  i never read the screenplay (nor will i ever).  i watched the movie.  a lot.  i love the movie.  all the information i have about these characters comes to me through the movie.  it must stand on its own. IMHO
(but i love to read all the posts which dissect the short story and screenplay word by word.  very interesting viewpoints there!  :))

and finally,
That bottle of wine. (per VT Sunset)

maybe the set people just put it there because ennis and alma jr. needed something to drink.  maybe it doesn't mean anything.  maybe there is no significance to it because, as someone who gets all her information from the movie, it means nothing.

(oh my god, did i just say that OUT LOUD.  i am in such trouble! :o)
 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: jnov on September 25, 2006, 09:08:40 AM
by the way, i meant to ask:

reading through this thread (i did not read the first 8 pages. sorry. *hangs my head in shame*) i thought for sure there would be posts about the significance of ennis being in a greyhound station during his last scene with cassie.
to obvious to mentioned?  doesn't mean anything? what?

(and just because i said the bottle of wine doesn't mean anything doesn't mean i don't think SOME things mean something!  ;) :))
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Lola on September 25, 2006, 09:19:21 AM
However, it's possible that all 'a legacy of Cassie' means is that Cassie changed his tastes from beer to wine [and I'm sure there must be more symbolism there than I'm looking for at the moment :)].  He may have had several full bottles still in the trailer when he split up with Cassie and has been slowly drinking them [very slowly!].  Or maybe he actually buys wine now, rather than beer. 

If his taste has change to wine, it could mean like you say, that he's still hanging on to that bit of 'straightness', and being attractive to women.  Could it possibly mean that he's accepting a less 'masculine' side of himself, though?  [Although [cheap, straight from the bottle] wine-drinking used to be seen as pretty masculine back in my youth - as it was stronger than beer - I'm just wondering]. 

I am not sure what all the talk is about wine, sorry I haven't read through this thread.  I know in another thread months ago, someone said the wine was there to prove that Ennis was still with Cassie, I thought that may have been true.  Still with Cassie and still missing Jack.

But I am LOL at the wine comments.  I haven't known too many men who drink white wine, let alone ranch hands.  I know alot of ladies who drink white wine and I know alot of men who drink red wine.  But not to many men who drink white.  I think it would be an odd thing for Ennis to keep around and drink.

He seems more like a JACK Daniels kind of guy to me!  ;)
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Marge_Innavera on September 25, 2006, 09:33:53 AM
What is the mention of the bottle of wine about in the film scripst? Why does Ennis keep it in his fridge? Why doesn't he chuck it? Is he unable to part with things-Is that why he cannot leave Jack, as Des says?

IMO, the bottle of wine has become one of those things that stays in the refrigerator long enough that you don't see it anymore.   :D  And its presence is handy for a piece of business making it clear that Ennis wants to celebrate this event in his daughter's life.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Desecra on September 25, 2006, 09:56:18 AM
I am not sure what all the talk is about wine, sorry I haven't read through this thread.  I know in another thread months ago, someone said the wine was there to prove that Ennis was still with Cassie, I thought that may have been true.  Still with Cassie and still missing Jack.

You know, I'd never even thought of that.  I'd assumed that Cassie and Ennis were no longer 'together' after their final scene in the movie, and that 'legacy' meant a legacy from those days.  I suppose it could possibly mean a legacy of a couple of nights ago, with Cassie!  I'm not really convinced, though :).

Quote
But I am LOL at the wine comments.  I haven't known too many men who drink white wine, let alone ranch hands.  I know alot of ladies who drink white wine and I know alot of men who drink red wine.  But not to many men who drink white.  I think it would be an odd thing for Ennis to keep around and drink.

Maybe it's just a local thing.  I grew up on cheap wine - it was drunk by young people a lot as it worked out cheaper by alcohol volume than beer.  I think there was a bit of a class thing as well - wine-drinking [the cheap, nasty stuff - which may have been what Ennis had in that screw bottle] was mainly a young, working class thing, I think.  But as I remember, it was drunk by men as well as women, and certainly wasn't seen as a women's drink or un-macho - quite the opposite!
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Lola on September 25, 2006, 09:57:23 AM
If I open white wine and it doesn't get drank by the next day, I toss it.   No one would drink wine that had been in the fridge for months, would they?   :P

oops that comment was for Marg.

Yea maybe it is a local thing Desecra.  I have a brother in law who likes white wine spritzers, but he is too embarassed to order one when we go out! lol
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: CANSTANDIT on September 25, 2006, 05:18:03 PM
by the way, i meant to ask:

reading through this thread (i did not read the first 8 pages. sorry. *hangs my head in shame*) i thought for sure there would be posts about the significance of ennis being in a greyhound station during his last scene with cassie.
to obvious to mentioned?  doesn't mean anything? what?

(and just because i said the bottle of wine doesn't mean anything doesn't mean i don't think SOME things mean something!  ;) :))
Hi, Jnov-well to me the story is rife with symbolism; it is after all about a love that dare not speak its name-so much is 'symbolized' and to me that is appropriate.

The greyhound station: I brought this up a hundred years ago, and was almost laughed off the forum  ;) But, then it got brought up again, and a healthy discussion got going in the Symbolism thread. Here's my nutshell take:

Ennis is thinking about 'going somewhere', ie, further with Jack. Not literally to Texas, but he may just climb on an an emotional bus that takes him further than he is.
Oh, and, they have good apple pie there! Which of course tastes not so good to him as it once did, because: drum roll:
He knows he is no longer Mom-and-Apple Pie Iconic USA guy; he knows he is probabaly gay, and now nothing is what it once was. So the goodbye to Cassie becomes almost an afterthought, even though the 'sorry' was sincere....I see him in a state of depression here; note the almost numb look in his eyes, which gradually reveal his pain as he watches her break down, and once he stops posing, ie, "looks like I got the message", implying she was at fault.
Second or third  hardest scene to watch for me after the Divorce scene. So much unspoken pain.
IMO.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Queen_Beruthiel on September 25, 2006, 06:52:52 PM
I thought maybe it was a case of Ennis eating the forbidden fruit (in a form).  Back on Brokeback, the coyote had "balls on him the size of apples" and there are various other apple references in the story.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: CANSTANDIT on September 25, 2006, 07:38:41 PM
I thought maybe it was a case of Ennis eating the forbidden fruit (in a form).  Back on Brokeback, the coyote had "balls on him the size of apples" and there are various other apple references in the story.
hmmm...good point.
Welcome to the forum, Queen_ B!! :D
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Sandy on September 25, 2006, 08:52:37 PM
Queen_B,

Welcome to the obsession, hope you'll stick around. There's plenty been said about apples over on the 'Imagery and Symbolism' thread which you will find amusing and insightful by turns (if you haven't seen it already).

See you on the threads,

Sandy
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Desecra on September 26, 2006, 12:12:52 AM
I still like that intepretation that someone came up with ages ago - that the apple pie has the same meaning as the apple pie in the film 'American Pie'.  Ennis is trying to eat it but can no longer hide his distaste :).  Anyway, I've never been able to get that particular piece of symbolism out of my head, once it was mentioned!  ;D
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: jnov on September 26, 2006, 02:28:32 AM
CSI, i really like your take on this.  makes complete sense to me.  fits in nicely with what i was saying about how jack succeeded in making ennis acknowledge to himself who he is. (*she says smugly*.)

i can be such a bitch sometimes.  ;)  don't be mad.  :-*

and
des, never saw American Pie.  what does the apple pie represent there?
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: CANSTANDIT on September 26, 2006, 07:47:02 AM
I still like that intepretation that someone came up with ages ago - that the apple pie has the same meaning as the apple pie in the film 'American Pie'.  Ennis is trying to eat it but can no longer hide his distaste :).  Anyway, I've never been able to get that particular piece of symbolism out of my head, once it was mentioned!  ;D
why, thanks! ;)
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: CANSTANDIT on September 26, 2006, 07:49:04 AM
CSI, i really like your take on this.  makes complete sense to me.  fits in nicely with what i was saying about how jack succeeded in making ennis acknowledge to himself who he is. (*she says smugly*.)
i can be such a bitch sometimes.  ;)  don't be mad.  :-*


J, I love when we agree! :D :D But so much more interesting when we don't!! ;D ;D
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: jnov on September 26, 2006, 08:40:33 AM
ditto that!  8)
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Desecra on September 26, 2006, 09:01:51 AM
des, never saw American Pie.  what does the apple pie represent there?

Am I allowed to say?  In the film, the feeling for a man, of having sex with a woman is described as being like sticking their relevant part into an apple pie.  One of the characters experiments with his mother's homemade apple pie, only to be caught in the act by his father.   Much embarrassment ensues.  I am immature enough to find this funny.

Anyway, whenever I watch that scene with Ennis he has no enthusiasm at all for that pie, and  I imagine that he just can't face digging into it one more time.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: lauren on September 26, 2006, 05:36:30 PM
Maybe it's just a local thing.  I grew up on cheap wine - it was drunk by young people a lot as it worked out cheaper by alcohol volume than beer.  I think there was a bit of a class thing as well - wine-drinking [the cheap, nasty stuff - which may have been what Ennis had in that screw bottle] was mainly a young, working class thing, I think.  But as I remember, it was drunk by men as well as women, and certainly wasn't seen as a women's drink or un-macho - quite the opposite!


I always felt this way about how the wine was a 'legacy' from Cassie: that it meant that Ennis was simply drinking wine because he picked up the habit from Cassie and that it was cheaper than whiskey. Nothing more than that.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: jnov on September 26, 2006, 05:56:26 PM
oh. well thanks desecra.
hmmm. being female that just sort of perplexes me.

but i like the idea that ennis just can't take the pie no more!  :D
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: CANSTANDIT on September 26, 2006, 06:42:10 PM
nah...... ;) ;D
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Ministering angel on October 01, 2006, 01:38:17 AM

I love the way these threads get me thinking along lines I hadn't considered before, or had glossed over as not worth thinking about.

When Ennis tells Jack Cassie wants to go to nursing school or something, and follows with "I dunno", I read it not only as that he isn't interested enough to know but also (due to the way Heath delivers the line) that he is doubting the worth of the whole relationship, as if subconsciously he is realising that his attempt at proving he's straight isn't working. I keep seeing these moments where, if they had better communication skills, they (J&E) could have started working things out.

The pie - goodness, "pie" is a pretty common euphemism for the vagina, as in "hair pie" "fur pie" "finger pie" - the last one used so sweetly by the Beatles in "Penny Lane".

The wine - always assumed that Ennis had just got a taste for it and so continued drinking the stuff after Cassie had departed. I doubt he'd much care if it was on the turn or not! But it's also a convenient way for the sacramental flavour of the scene to be brought out - toasting Alma and Kurt's news with beer wouldn't have had the same quality. And, yes, white wine sounds just a little, ahem, gayer than anything else.

Cassie's ongoing presence - no way. Apart from anything else, the shirts were there for anyone to see who opened the closet and I bet Cassie would have done that, say, to get out nice clothes for him to wear when they were out together. BUT there is another legacy of Cassie in the scene - the second pillow. Ennis's bed is a threequarter at best. What looks like an old, squashy pillow is by the wall and a firmer (newer?) one is beside it. It makes me think that Cassie bought a pillow and left it there. I don't like to think about Ennis and Cassie having sex, I really don't. It makes me very sad. I can't say more than that because it upsets me.

Still, I think about that second pillow. Ennis would have been practical enough just to use it but I wonder if he lay there at night and pictured Jack sleeping there, his head on that pillow? Slept over on his old pillow and left half the bed for Jack? Clung to that pillow and whispered all the things he should have said to Jack? Hello, I'm drifting OT as usual.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: CANSTANDIT on October 01, 2006, 09:03:24 AM
Well, Mini, since you brought up the pilllow, let me go OT a minute and remind you of the red bedcover; there can be, I am pretty sure, no other interpretation other than this is about Jack. Ennis doesn't do red; he is almost militaristic in his earthtones...I do think there is a lonliness with just one pillow on a bed where two bodies can fit. It just doesn't feel right, does it?? It may very well have been for Cassie, true, but it might also just be his crying pillow, so to speak, when he can't take the pain.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: gres on October 01, 2006, 01:10:14 PM
Mini,

that last paragraph in your post made me really sad. Ennis pretending  Jack is still there with him. In their four years parting Ennis always held a hope that s'time he would see Jack again. Now he knows that no matter how many hours will he spend looking out that  window in his trailer Jack will never come back to him. He will never see him again and he will never have the chance to show him how much he lloved and still loves him and to surprise him just like he did in the reunion with that kiss.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Ministering angel on October 01, 2006, 09:44:14 PM
I know I'm a fool and I don't really quite believe in an afterlife and I know I'm OT too, but the other night I imagined what it would be like if/when Jack and Ennis met up again - wherever - somewhere over the rainbow, and it wasn't just Ennis that was crying. I needed a spare pillow.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: CANSTANDIT on October 02, 2006, 10:42:35 PM
that takes me back to my first few weeks of awareness, after I saw the film. I kept going back; I couldn't absorb the full impact of what had happened to these men, and it was the first time I got to see such a beautiful thing played out so naturally....I did not sleep well for quite awhile. I saw the film too many times, hoping for a different ending each time, and it got very much under my skin...
I actually found both Cassie and Randall to be very distracting, to take away from the reality of J & E, and I've come to realize: that was the point. Those scenes are stilted, out of character and almost pat and cliche. I think Ang Lee wanted them that way, to show society's false face, it's hollywood version of romance, that J & E, and all the rest of us are supposed to aspire to...

Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Ministering angel on October 03, 2006, 10:57:17 PM
"Hoping for a different ending...". How well I know that feeling. I know I didn't sleep, kept waking up night after night with one thought on my mind. I still so but at least I sleep better.
I recall it was one of these "extraneous" scenes that had me thinking first time around, Where is this going? I woul;dn't say the scenes are stilted but they do intrude and interrupt the flow of what we feel "should' be happening. And that's the point.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: CANSTANDIT on October 04, 2006, 12:22:14 AM
"Hoping for a different ending...". How well I know that feeling. I know I didn't sleep, kept waking up night after night with one thought on my mind. I still so but at least I sleep better.
I recall it was one of these "extraneous" scenes that had me thinking first time around, Where is this going? I woul;dn't say the scenes are stilted but they do intrude and interrupt the flow of what we feel "should' be happening. And that's the point.
why not stilted? (come on, Mini, you can do it only 30 + to go!!!)
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Ministering angel on October 04, 2006, 12:29:54 AM
Bless you, my child. They are perfectly adequate scenes, they flow nicely, they deliver information in a precise and clever way, they are good cinema - but they just don't show Jack and Ennis getting it on!! And that's what we tragics want to see.
In a film which is extraordinary for its beautiful portrayal of the "forbidden" they are just intrusions - but not stilted.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: ImEnnisShesJack on November 25, 2006, 07:30:16 PM
Dave has an important announcement about the forum, which he asks all members to read:

http://davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=18085.msg602098#msg602098

We have set up a thread to discuss the situation. That discussion thread is linked from the post directly below the message from Dave. Follow the above link and you'll get to both.

Thanks
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: CANSTANDIT on November 26, 2006, 11:23:28 PM
Something occurred to me about the 'waitress' and Ennis; this is his first presumably, female 'conquest' since the big D; the film wants us to believe it happened, so they can use Cassie to show how Ennis changes after the Last Scene, all hang-dog and depressed over his 'pie' in the cafe...they want us to have no doubt but that he is gay-so any future hetero relationships would be hopeless. Then Jack dies.....

But in the text: I don't buy it. If this was only the 2nd female sexual relationship of his life-we'd see some of it. I think it would've been fascinating and kind of important for the reader to see him relate sexually to a woman all those years after the divorce; and after Alma disclosing her knowledge about him and Jack to him....it would be to critical to his character development to leave it out.

I therfore think it was bullshit. I don't think Ennis had another woman after Alma.

thoughts?
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Ministering angel on November 27, 2006, 06:10:06 AM
That's the trouble with films that cover a long period - you don't get a full picture. I see it going two ways - either Cassie was a made-up tale (and I've always wondered if that was the case in the story. After all, Ennis doesn't want Jack questioning him too closely - who knows where it might lead) or he had a series of girlfriends who were happy to hang around with him occasionally (after all, they might appreciate not being the butt of all the jokes too, about not having a fellow) but weren't pushy like Cassie. I'm inclined to think he might have had a token female every so often. Maybe even slept with them but can you imagine how much enthusiasm he'd muster? He was, after all, still trying to convince himself.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: gres on November 27, 2006, 07:15:01 AM
I had said months ago here or in some other thread that Ennis in the last scene doesn't seem to have talked to Jack about Cassie who Cassie doesn't even have a name in the book. I don't know why he hadn't done it-Was there any woman at all ot he made her up to keep the illusion and the pretence---i don't know for sure, need more time to think about it. But my feeling is that Ennis might occasionally have had sexual encounters with women so as  to convice himself that he is not queer and i think he did that after his trips with Jack so as to reassure himself that everything was ok=i'm not queer, i still can perform with women...Maybe his faillure to do so or to take pleasure....were part of his increasing paranoia about what he was  thinking of himself over the years...
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: CANSTANDIT on November 27, 2006, 07:40:55 AM
I had said months ago here or in some other thread that Ennis in the last scene doesn't seem to have talked to Jack about Cassie who Cassie doesn't even have a name in the book. I don't know why he hadn't done it-Was there any woman at all ot he made her up to keep the illusion and the pretence---i don't know for sure, need more time to think about it. But my feeling is that Ennis might occasionally have had sexual encounters with women so as  to convice himself that he is not queer and i think he did that after his trips with Jack so as to reassure himself that everything was ok=i'm not queer, i still can perform with women...Maybe his faillure to do so or to take pleasure....were part of his increasing paranoia about what he was  thinking of himself over the years...
yeah, Gres, I recall that you picked up on this; and I wasn't even thinking about it at the time; I was mostly concerned with analyzing them, as opposed to how real they were...If Des is right, and the boys lie mostly-MOSTLY-about their sexuality, than this fits right in-including Jack lying about the other one- :D ;)

I just feel like he might not tell Jack if it was really true; so I think he is telling him to boast about it, as he now knows things are not going well in the Twist marriage, and he wants Jack to be sure he is not avialable for the C&C, cuz he is in a hetero relationship; but-the 'puttin the blocks to' her, as a false ring to it, to me. He gives her no name, just as Jack gives no name-and of course he can't if it is a guy-to the ranch neighbor's wife. Of course this could also be a subconsious way for them to tell each other, "She/he's not important, like you.", "right, mine ain't, neither...". This is a tough one.


Edit: Oh, I just thought of something....Jack tells Ennis he is not Ennis; he can't make it on a couple of HAFs once or twice a year....So either he does not believe the waitress story, because he knows Ennis has to make it on the HAFs with him, only; or he knows Ennis is queer, and anyone, but Jack, does not  count as a real F*ck. This tells me Jack DOES know how Ennis feels about him, at least until the collapse, when he unconcsiously associates it with his Dad's incendiary rage-but now that I think about it.....this next part will need to go in the Last Scene thread, when I can make it over there, sometime later today-sorry...
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Desecra on November 27, 2006, 09:08:37 AM
I suggested a long time ago that 'Cassie' didn't exist in the book.  That's the way I read it when I first read the book.  Ennis might have known a barmaid, but I thought there probably wasn't much of a relationship there.  Ennis couldn't even bring hiimself to have sex with Alma - I didn't see him wanting to go through all that again.  And 'putting the blocks to' was kind of vague.  And there's no mention of 'Cassie' after that scene - whatever was going on clearly didn't amount to anything.  Yet again, the film surprised me - this was a serious long-term relationship!

However,  you all managed to persuade me that Ennis WAS in a relationship - he wasn't the type to make up a back story.   But I don't think the relationship was anything much.

Gres pointed out ages ago that Ennis didn't mention it earlier in the film.  I think in the book, he didn't mention it earlier because it wasn't happening.  In the film, I still think - it's a mistake.  If Cassie was Ennis's attempt at being straight, his cover, he would have mentioned it.  He denies his sexuality to Jack as much as he does to anyone - more even.  In the film Jack has to prompt Ennis to make him mention a relationship he's had for several years.  It doesn't make sense.  In the book, Ennis volunteers the information.

Anyway ... after talking me round a few months ago into believing in 'Cassie' in the book too, you've now made me rethink it all again and I'm now back where I started, thinking she was a barmaid Ennis knew [hence the back story] but nothing much was going on.  I hope you're satisfied!
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: CANSTANDIT on November 27, 2006, 12:15:15 PM
I suggested a long time ago that 'Cassie' didn't exist in the book.  That's the way I read it when I first read the book.  Ennis might have known a barmaid, but I thought there probably wasn't much of a relationship there.  Ennis couldn't even bring hiimself to have sex with Alma - I didn't see him wanting to go through all that again.  And 'putting the blocks to' was kind of vague.  And there's no mention of 'Cassie' after that scene - whatever was going on clearly didn't amount to anything.  Yet again, the film surprised me - this was a serious long-term relationship!

However,  you all managed to persuade me that Ennis WAS in a relationship - he wasn't the type to make up a back story.   But I don't think the relationship was anything much.

Gres pointed out ages ago that Ennis didn't mention it earlier in the film.  I think in the book, he didn't mention it earlier because it wasn't happening.  In the film, I still think - it's a mistake.  If Cassie was Ennis's attempt at being straight, his cover, he would have mentioned it.  He denies his sexuality to Jack as much as he does to anyone - more even.  In the film Jack has to prompt Ennis to make him mention a relationship he's had for several years.  It doesn't make sense.  In the book, Ennis volunteers the information.

Anyway ... after talking me round a few months ago into believing in 'Cassie' in the book too, you've now made me rethink it all again and I'm now back where I started, thinking she was a barmaid Ennis knew [hence the back story] but nothing much was going on.  I hope you're satisfied!
I certainly am! ;) If it makes you feel any better, I've gone back and forth on this one; not thinking Ennis would lie outright, but I have always felt Cassie was a tool for the filmmakers, so they extended her life and importance to Ennis-if she existed. Now as I look at AP's methods, there are lots of phantoms in this story...
So willing to rethink; this was never a big issue for me, but when I analyze Cassie she it very much a female Jack. Well, now that kind of has a literary tool ring to it, doesn't it? A fabrication used to help us see Ennis as he is....hmmm.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Desecra on November 27, 2006, 12:37:03 PM
I can see film Cassie as kind of a female Jack.  Book 'Cassie':

'....worked part-time at the Wolf's Ears bar in Signal where he was now working for Stoutamire's cow and calf outfit, but it wasn't going anywhere and she had some problems he didn't want.

Leaving aside the intriguing 'Wolf's Ears' and 'Stoutamire' [I'm sure they've been explored fully over in Symbolism at some point!] AND the fact that Ennis just has to bring up 'cow and calf' operations yet again .... I suppose you could say about Jack that it wasn''t going anywhere and that he had some problems Ennis didn't want.  Being gay, for one.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Ministering angel on November 27, 2006, 04:24:05 PM
Des, you've set me thinking again. While I've noticed all those refs that you quote I've never wondered why they are placed where they are. I'll go away and think.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: CANSTANDIT on November 27, 2006, 07:11:05 PM
I can see film Cassie as kind of a female Jack.  Book 'Cassie':

'....worked part-time at the Wolf's Ears bar in Signal where he was now working for Stoutamire's cow and calf outfit, but it wasn't going anywhere and she had some problems he didn't want.

Leaving aside the intriguing 'Wolf's Ears' and 'Stoutamire' [I'm sure they've been explored fully over in Symbolism at some point!] AND the fact that Ennis just has to bring up 'cow and calf' operations yet again .... I suppose you could say about Jack that it wasn''t going anywhere and that he had some problems Ennis didn't want.  Being gay, for one.
I went a wee step further with it, but I like yours alot; I said her 'problems' were that he could not be hetero for her, but now I think you are right; this is a veiled subconscious reference to his issues with Jack. eee...another ugly rock turned over, and some slithering human foible underneath. It makes good sense, Des!
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Ministering angel on November 28, 2006, 02:59:52 AM
In the film Cassie is described by Ennis as a waitress although the story just refers to her as a woman who worked part-time at the bar. I guess she'd still be a waitress (or barmaid) but it made me think of her as the female Jack. He's a waiter - waiting eternally for Ennis.

Ennis would be right in saying she had some problems - like being attracted to a guy who is a bit of a no-hoper and who is pretty low on the sexual enthusiasm pole. It actually doesn't sound at all like the film Cassie.

The fact that Ennis's comment goes unremarked upon by Jack (in the story) gives the impression that it's something Ennis trots out now and then, whether it's true or not.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: CANSTANDIT on December 17, 2006, 11:51:40 PM
In the film Cassie is described by Ennis as a waitress although the story just refers to her as a woman who worked part-time at the bar. I guess she'd still be a waitress (or barmaid) but it made me think of her as the female Jack. He's a waiter - waiting eternally for Ennis.

Ennis would be right in saying she had some problems - like being attracted to a guy who is a bit of a no-hoper and who is pretty low on the sexual enthusiasm pole. It actually doesn't sound at all like the film Cassie.

The fact that Ennis's comment goes unremarked upon by Jack (in the story) gives the impression that it's something Ennis trots out now and then, whether it's true or not.
I agree, and if we need some sort of evidence of what Jack thinks, further, we need only think of his 'once or twice a year' comment; if he thought Ennis really had an outlet, he wouldn't say that; he'd define it more as being about him and Ennis, not just sex in general.
so I don't think he buys it, and I would not be surprised if the waitress is just someone Ennis just talks to in the cafe. His need to appear not queer, while he has Jack bent over the campfire circle, would certainly be strong enough to outweigh any compunction he may have had once to not lie ...
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: gres on December 18, 2006, 03:27:02 AM
I agree CSI. This line of Jack's seems to be more a question being made to Ennis....How can you do it? How can you live like that? Don't you need me? Don't you miss me? However i think Jack doesn't buy the Cassie story either.....He for sure knows how it feels for him and he must have been knowing how it feels for Ennis, too, to have sex with a woman just by the way Ennis has been making love to him all those years....In a long-term relationship one can very well see the hunger and the need in his lover's eyes and to realise all the things he needs to know even if Ennis has been trying to convince him of the opposite-that he might had a good sex life with a woman as part of the whole pretence thing......
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: CANSTANDIT on December 18, 2006, 04:14:48 PM
I agree CSI. This line of Jack's seems to be more a question being made to Ennis....How can you do it? How can you live like that? Don't you need me? Don't you miss me? However i think Jack doesn't buy the Cassie story either.....He for sure knows how it feels for him and he must have been knowing how it feels for Ennis, too, to have sex with a woman just by the way Ennis has been making love to him all those years....In a long-term relationship one can very well see the hunger and the need in his lover's eyes and to realise all the things he needs to know even if Ennis has been trying to convince him of the opposite-that he might had a good sex life with a woman as part of the whole pretence thing......
good point; it is the same familiarity, I think, that lets Ennis know Jack's been riding more than the bulls, over the years; and Jack is surprised to not have been confronted sooner-he knows Ennis must pick up clues, as lovers do, yet he has not fully reckoned the dept of Ennis' denial, for if he really knew him-he might be surprised that he actually brings up the Mexico accusation. But because he cannot possibly realize how fearful Ennis really is..he is surprised when he does not, I think.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Ministering angel on December 19, 2006, 04:52:14 AM
So you're saying Jack is pretty sure Ennis knows about his extra-currilcular activities but is so in denial he doesn't think about them?

Jack would be willing to believe in the presence of a Cassie-type because it would indicate that Ennis needed sexual outlet too, thus vindicating Jack's ECA.

I'm semi-willing to believe in a Cassie-type if only because Ennis would still be trying to prove something to himself.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: CANSTANDIT on December 19, 2006, 05:52:25 AM

So you're saying Jack is pretty sure Ennis knows about his extra-currilcular activities but is so in denial he doesn't think about them?

Jack would be willing to believe in the presence of a Cassie-type because it would indicate that Ennis needed sexual outlet too, thus vindicating Jack's ECA.


I'm semi-willing to believe in a Cassie-type if only because Ennis would still be trying to prove something to himself.

Quote
Yes, to Ennis' denial; he knows him well enough for that, I think. The 'I'm not no queer' followed later by a punch is probably something Jack would forgive, but not forget. Having been physically abused as a child, he effectively would let someone push him down to a degree; less scary than fighting it, maybe? Of course he is so pissed off with the August announcement, that he finally speaks up....

Re: Cassie:
I'm semi-willing to believe it, too-I just have doubt because Jack appears not to; I don't think he'd make that once or twice a year comment-unless in his mind, he is doing what Ennis does; specializing the relationship, as if everything else pales in comparison-that would be contrary to the view that he does not fully understand Ennis, that he knows his value to Ennis-I don't think he really does, as evidenced by how he reacts to the breakdown. This becomes a little circular to me-and maybe Annie intended that. Jack is in a conondrum about what he thinks Ennis really feels....

What is ECA again? ;D

Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Ministering angel on December 19, 2006, 06:17:52 AM
Pardon my stupidity but I didn't follow that stuff about Cassie.
ECA = extra curricular activities

Would you like a short course in quoting  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: CANSTANDIT on December 19, 2006, 07:00:34 PM
Cripes, I didn't check the final view-I was on my way out. If I had time to go to the sandbox...and thanks ever so for continually pointing this out! :D

Cassie=literary device. Jack doesn't buy it; I believe him. 'putting the blocks' sounds like your basic guy-talk-not characteristic of Ennis. Makes me think he is putting on-but if he is having casual sex with her, it certainly is less dramatic than to think he is lying, and can't be with anyone but Jack!

I just think we'd have been introduced in print to either one of them, had they been important. the 'waitress'' and the ''ranch neighbor', indeed. I'd buy Jack's more than Ennis's, because Jack's much hotter in the pants...
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: jnov on December 20, 2006, 06:29:20 AM
Cripes, I didn't check the final view-I was on my way out. If I had time to go to the sandbox...and thanks ever so for continually pointing this out! :D

Cassie=literary device. Jack doesn't buy it; I believe him. 'putting the blocks' sounds like your basic guy-talk-not characteristic of Ennis. Makes me think he is putting on-but if he is having casual sex with her, it certainly is less dramatic than to think he is lying, and can't be with anyone but Jack!

I just think we'd have been introduced in print to either one of them, had they been important. the 'waitress'' and the ''ranch neighbor', indeed. I'd buy Jack's more than Ennis's, because Jack's much hotter in the pants...

 :D :D :D
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Gonzo on December 20, 2006, 05:43:18 PM
The administration has been working extremely hard to solve the slow down issue that has been plaguing the forum for some months now. It has been determined that to solve this we will have to change the host company of the forum. The new host server has now been contracted with by Dave as of today.

We are proceeding rapidly now and hope to have the conversion complete within a few weeks at the latest and hopefully much sooner. We will keep you (members) apprised. Please look for announcements in the Newsbox. Some changes will likely come up suddenly--that is the nature of computer conversions, so it is impossible to know before we test whether something will go flawlessly and take two hours, or uncover thorny issues that will take days. The testing process is being started. This will not affect the forum at this point.

So taking this into consideration, we don't want to give you timeframes that are unrealistic. As soon as we finish a stage, we'll proceed immediately to the next, and the exact changeover will likely come on very short notice to you (members). We will post this changeover time in the Newsbox as well as in the individual threads, and will give you as much lead time as we can manage. This will enable us to end the slowdown ASAP.

Thank you for your patience.
Title: Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
Post by: h.nauen on January 05, 2007, 05:17:08 PM
this one time i will have to be the lone ranger.  someone made a neat point about the parallel, and we knnow ang likes his parallel structure, practically palindromic, but the interlude added nothing to the movie for me.  cassie may have given junior someone to react to, and there is nothing wrong with cardellini as an actress, but it was a big yawn to me.
Agreed, agreed, agreed. I didn't mind her presence, but I felt like it didn't strengthen the movie.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: sugarcheryl on January 05, 2007, 05:20:31 PM
It actually strained me to watch the sceens with Cassie in them. They were totally pointless IMO. Her character brought nothing to Ennis except for what I feel was even more confusion. To answer his question about him not being any fun....I would have to agree....he probably wasnt any fun, considering his mind was probably always some where else.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: gres on January 05, 2007, 05:32:55 PM
I took Cassie's presence in the film as Ennis last chance to lead a straight  life. And if Ennis couldn't make a life with her then there was no woman on planet earth with whom  he could so-Cassie is the female Jack as someone pointed here a long time ago and i agree. So  i do think that they were there to serve this purpose-for us the audience to see Ennis taking action in his personal life as a result of his argument with Jack and which makes me think the "if November had come" with much more sadness..

And wellcome h.nauen.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Ministering angel on January 05, 2007, 06:25:40 PM
I also find the Cassie scenes a bit of a drag but they serve a very valuable purpose. They are loaded with information about all sorts of stuff. Their main problem is that they do not feature Jack  ;)
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: CANSTANDIT on January 06, 2007, 07:17:26 AM
It actually strained me to watch the sceens with Cassie in them. They were totally pointless IMO. Her character brought nothing to Ennis except for what I feel was even more confusion. To answer his question about him not being any fun....I would have to agree....he probably wasnt any fun, considering his mind was probably always some where else.

Sugarcheryl-this whole movie strains me.....for diff reasons than Cassie. ;)

I do somewhat see a motivation to make the average viewer dispense with any straight illusions about Ennis-and I think as I work this thru, we are meant to share his reactions-the initial excitement of an attractive young women paying him attention; on thru the annoying burden of having a girlfriend with baggage-she has problems he didn't want-and finally to him realizing their ain't nobody but Jack.
We are dragged thru his illusion with him, to a degree. Ang came close to doing what AP did with the short story here, stylistically-he fooled us a little, as to POV-are we Ennis/or are we objective viewers, via the author, at that moment? I've come to conclude, we are meant to feel just what Ennis did-that she was a roaring mistake.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: h.nauen on January 06, 2007, 10:21:26 AM
I took Cassie's presence in the film as Ennis last chance to lead a straight  life. And if Ennis couldn't make a life with her then there was no woman on planet earth with whom  he could so-Cassie is the female Jack as someone pointed here a long time ago and i agree. So  i do think that they were there to serve this purpose-for us the audience to see Ennis taking action in his personal life as a result of his argument with Jack and which makes me think the "if November had come" with much more sadness..

And wellcome h.nauen.

first of all, thanks for the welcome.  :)

And now that I read your point of view, I am trying to find the reasons you mention for her presence. Its so hard to keep an opinion in these forums.. ! Everyone makes such great points!

Oh god, I wish November had come...!
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: jwm on January 29, 2007, 06:09:39 PM
I have a question, when Ennis was in that last restaurant did he know that Cassie worked there, to me it looked like she was heading to the back or kitchen area, and when he cleared his throat to let her know he was there, the way he looked at that moment you would have thought that he had already lost Jack, and when he spoke to Cassie, was he there to see if he could still fool her into thinking that he was straight, or was he there to see if he could possibly pick up where he just left off, checking out the waters so to speak. At that time he was at his lowest I think, so maybe he was looking for a distraction, any distraction? I would appreciate it if I knew, why I don't know but it bothers me, again one of many things.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Ministering angel on January 30, 2007, 01:49:57 AM
jwm, Cassie didn't work there and it was just coincidental that she came in while he was there. The throat clearing seems to be accidental rather than a way of attracting her attention. Ennis seems to have been determined to just fade from her life rather than to end it with decisive action.

His terrible expression seems to be more about his dawning realisation about his sexuality and the effect his behaviour has had on Jack. He is in no way trying to get back with Cassie. He has realised that she is not the answer, that trying to make it as a straight man is just not happening. He is definitely not looking for distraction.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: CANSTANDIT on January 30, 2007, 07:18:43 AM
I have a question, when Ennis was in that last restaurant did he know that Cassie worked there, to me it looked like she was heading to the back or kitchen area, and when he cleared his throat to let her know he was there, the way he looked at that moment you would have thought that he had already lost Jack, and when he spoke to Cassie, was he there to see if he could still fool her into thinking that he was straight, or was he there to see if he could possibly pick up where he just left off, checking out the waters so to speak. At that time he was at his lowest I think, so maybe he was looking for a distraction, any distraction? I would appreciate it if I knew, why I don't know but it bothers me, again one of many things.
jwm, I think a clue is when Ennis says to Cassie, 'I wasn't much fun anyways, was I?' He is having a pity-party over his failure as a lover-first Jack tells him he can't make it on a couple of HAF's, and that he is 'not like' Ennis; now Cassie is saying, "I don't get you, Ennis del Mar"; so he is concluding something about himself. Then Cassie delievers a little gem that to me, turns the whole thing around:
Ennis, Girls don't fall in love with fun.
It is a realization for him-if she fell in love with him, and he didn't realize how much, until that moment....what about Jack? Has Jack also not fallen in love with fun, but rather with the whole package that is Ennis? Too late, of course....I think it was the real purpose of Cassie being in the film: We needed to see pre-fight Ennis and post-fight Ennis. We needed someone to bump him up against, to see the difference in him. I don't see her serving another purpose that is criitical, story-wise, unless someone has any doubts as to why he and Alma didn't work out. Then we need the 'proof' that he cannot make it happily as a straight man...I realized thru another poster a while back that this was probably the true purpose-to see the change in Ennis. We needed to see what he took with him from the Last scene together.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Sandy on January 30, 2007, 09:38:36 AM
I have a question, when Ennis was in that last restaurant did he know that Cassie worked there, to me it looked like she was heading to the back or kitchen area, and when he cleared his throat to let her know he was there, the way he looked at that moment you would have thought that he had already lost Jack, and when he spoke to Cassie, was he there to see if he could still fool her into thinking that he was straight, or was he there to see if he could possibly pick up where he just left off, checking out the waters so to speak. At that time he was at his lowest I think, so maybe he was looking for a distraction, any distraction? I would appreciate it if I knew, why I don't know but it bothers me, again one of many things.
jmw,

I have to agree with Mini-A here. I don't think Ennis deliberately cleared his throat to catch Cassie's attetnion. She and Carl were just dropping in. It also looks like a cafe attached to a bus terminal, which on another thread might be suggestive of Ennis being at a crossroads. Leaving Cassie for Jack. One-way ticket.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: jwm on January 30, 2007, 10:30:22 AM
Thankyou again. I was just curious about that scene.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: jwm on January 30, 2007, 12:41:39 PM
I have another question hope you good people can help,. what is the song that is playing in the bus terminal with Ennis and Cassie's last scene. thk.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Ministering angel on January 31, 2007, 08:02:24 AM
"I'm Always On A Mountain When I Fall" by Merle Haggard.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: jwm on January 31, 2007, 12:10:27 PM
"I'm Always On A Mountain When I Fall" by Merle Haggard.uote]

I thankyou I wil have to go a look for that, jwm
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: jwm on January 31, 2007, 12:23:24 PM
wow, what a difference when you know what the song is behind them playing, I cried just  now when I heard it, it describes exactly what is going on and just exactly what Ennis is feeling, sheit that is sad. Also  I found the song that Jack was listening to after the divorce and my god I cried like a baby, I can see now that the music has so much to do with whatever scene they are in. I have to think about this Q/NQ thing, and listen to all the songs. I have gotten all sentimental again.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Ministering angel on January 31, 2007, 09:14:37 PM
OT but what the hell. When Jack and Randall meet, the song is "I Don't Want To Say Goodbye" (...all I want to do is live with you)

If you read through the Musical Score thread you'll find a lot of really interesting information. All the music has significance. The song Ennis plays on the jukebox, for example, is Melissa by the Allman Brothers, a very sad song and very Ennis. Check out the thread. It's worth the time.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: fofol on March 04, 2007, 10:05:35 AM
Brokeback, like all great works of art, sucks us into its world.  We could know people like these folks, or think we already do, self being counted.  Point being, for me, is that this halo of reality is extended by the excellence of the writing, acting, directing, editing, filming, and, well, everything (except maybe the sound, or did they mean to drive us to constantly adjust the volume to fully hear what’s going on?).  The story seizes most of us here in its relentlessly sorrowful pursuit of resolution,and in its ability to bridge the distance between what we know and what we believe.
It seems to me that Ennis finally wakes up and realizes his Cassie relationship for what it is (“Woman, last call.”) at the last campfire, when Jack says, "Sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it." Jack's honesty has finally snapped Ennis’ head out of his ass, and although he doesn’t yet know its name, Ennis acknowledges to himself that he, too, feels this strongly, but about Jack, not Cassie.  Leastways that how I interpreted that look on Ennis’ face as he turns back from Jack.  In any case, that’s the end of Cassie. 
The importance of the scene in the bus terminal can go nearly unremarked if we think of Cassie as only a last, failed attempt at a heterosexual relationship.  Ennis is avoiding Cassie, not calling her, not responding to her notes.  Their meeting is not something Ennis anticipates with delight.  He feels bad about using her, even though he doesn't yet realize the deep emotional toll this has taken on her.  Now, however, she has become something else he can blame himself for, another failure, another brick in the wall, no reminders wanted.
(For what it’s worth:  I see Don Wroe’s [dawn rose] cabin as the beginning of Ennis’ acknowledgement of "feeling," of being able to feel, his return to humanity - no details necessary, the name tells the story - just as I see this terminal Cassie conversation as that moment when Ennis finally wakes up to realize that his sorrow over Jack is in fact “love.”)
At first, I thought, Ennis has no idea how talented he is for saying the meanest, most hurtful responses he could give that girl, but as I got to know him better (God, these characters are made so real), I realized all the more that his answers are only so totally immature, like a damaged kid.  I mean, “Where ya been, Ennis Del Mar?” “Here and there,” he hopes she’ll go away.  “Left notes, etc.,” “Got the message in any case,” You’re with another guy, it’s fine, go away.  She sits down, looking for a reason.  “Carl?...and he talks.”  “Good for you,” thanks for the smart remark, you can go now.   Even, “I don’t get you Ennis Del Mar.”  “Sorry.”  - No redemption here for poor Cassie, just tears due to a rejection that she’s unequipped to understand: she’s a beautiful, vibrant young woman who’s getting nowhere with this taciturn stud she's been making love with, and you can bet that getting nowhere with her man has never happened to her.  But, it’s Ennis’ attempt at the kindness of self-deprecation which draws the line that saves his soul:  he says, ”I guess I wasn’t much fun anyways,” she replies, "Ennis, girls don’t fall in love with fun.”  Dawn rose, again.  She's taught Ennis that love isn’t just about fun; it’s also about the sadness that seizes you, heart and soul, when you think it might not be there any more.  Like wanting him to be there for you, no matter the odds that he will not be there.  Look at his face throughout this sequence, you can practically see him grow:  he starts withdrawn, ultra-morose, gets defensive, and finally stares off into the distance like a desperate man who realizes the harm he’s done to both Cassie and Jack.   Ennis now knows that this “thing” they have means he loves Jack, and Jack has loved him all along.  Now he wants to see a different,  particular future.  They must be together!  The hills are alive!
And the next "thing" we get is a returned “postcard” marked “deceased.”  The sorrow is relentless.  You bastards, you killed Jack!  Melting now...
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: fofol on March 04, 2007, 10:18:49 AM
Quote

Ennis, Girls don't fall in love with fun.
It is a realization for him-if she fell in love with him, and he didn't realize how much, until that moment....what about Jack? Has Jack also not fallen in love with fun, but rather with the whole package that is Ennis? Too late, of course....I think it was the real purpose of Cassie being in the film: We needed to see pre-fight Ennis and post-fight Ennis. We needed someone to bump him up against, to see the difference in him. I don't see her serving another purpose that is criitical, story-wise, unless someone has any doubts as to why he and Alma didn't work out. Then we need the 'proof' that he cannot make it happily as a straight man...I realized thru another poster a while back that this was probably the true purpose-to see the change in Ennis. We needed to see what he took with him from the Last scene together.
Quote

CSI, just read this after I posted the above:  do you know who the "another poster" was?  Just curious. As you can see, we couldn't be more in agrement on Cassie's purpose.  I just take longer to say it. ::)
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: mrbluebird on March 04, 2007, 05:40:51 PM
I hate tube tops but it's fresh to see Cassie getting some credit as a teacher.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: CANSTANDIT on March 04, 2007, 05:57:31 PM
Brokeback, like all great works of art, sucks us into its world.  We could know people like these folks, or think we already do, self being counted.  Point being, for me, is that this halo of reality is extended by the excellence of the writing, acting, directing, editing, filming, and, well, everything (except maybe the sound, or did they mean to drive us to constantly adjust the volume to fully hear what’s going on?).  The story seizes most of us here in its relentlessly sorrowful pursuit of resolution,and in its ability to bridge the distance between what we know and what we believe.
It seems to me that Ennis finally wakes up and realizes his Cassie relationship for what it is (“Woman, last call.”) at the last campfire, when Jack says, "Sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it." Jack's honesty has finally snapped Ennis’ head out of his ass, and although he doesn’t yet know its name, Ennis acknowledges to himself that he, too, feels this strongly, but about Jack, not Cassie.  Leastways that how I interpreted that look on Ennis’ face as he turns back from Jack.  In any case, that’s the end of Cassie. 
The importance of the scene in the bus terminal can go nearly unremarked if we think of Cassie as only a last, failed attempt at a heterosexual relationship.  Ennis is avoiding Cassie, not calling her, not responding to her notes.  Their meeting is not something Ennis anticipates with delight.  He feels bad about using her, even though he doesn't yet realize the deep emotional toll this has taken on her.  Now, however, she has become something else he can blame himself for, another failure, another brick in the wall, no reminders wanted.
(For what it’s worth:  I see Don Wroe’s [dawn rose] cabin as the beginning of Ennis’ acknowledgement of "feeling," of being able to feel, his return to humanity - no details necessary, the name tells the story - just as I see this terminal Cassie conversation as that moment when Ennis finally wakes up to realize that his sorrow over Jack is in fact “love.”)
At first, I thought, Ennis has no idea how talented he is for saying the meanest, most hurtful responses he could give that girl, but as I got to know him better (God, these characters are made so real), I realized all the more that his answers are only so totally immature, like a damaged kid.  I mean, “Where ya been, Ennis Del Mar?” “Here and there,” he hopes she’ll go away.  “Left notes, etc.,” “Got the message in any case,” You’re with another guy, it’s fine, go away.  She sits down, looking for a reason.  “Carl?...and he talks.”  “Good for you,” thanks for the smart remark, you can go now.   Even, “I don’t get you Ennis Del Mar.”  “Sorry.”  - No redemption here for poor Cassie, just tears due to a rejection that she’s unequipped to understand: she’s a beautiful, vibrant young woman who’s getting nowhere with this taciturn stud she's been making love with, and you can bet that getting nowhere with her man has never happened to her.  But, it’s Ennis’ attempt at the kindness of self-deprecation which draws the line that saves his soul:  he says, ”I guess I wasn’t much fun anyways,” she replies, "Ennis, girls don’t fall in love with fun.”  Dawn rose, again.  She's taught Ennis that love isn’t just about fun; it’s also about the sadness that seizes you, heart and soul, when you think it might not be there any more.  Like wanting him to be there for you, no matter the odds that he will not be there.  Look at his face throughout this sequence, you can practically see him grow:  he starts withdrawn, ultra-morose, gets defensive, and finally stares off into the distance like a desperate man who realizes the harm he’s done to both Cassie and Jack.   Ennis now knows that this “thing” they have means he loves Jack, and Jack has loved him all along.  Now he wants to see a different,  particular future.  They must be together!  The hills are alive!
And the next "thing" we get is a returned “postcard” marked “deceased.”  The sorrow is relentless.  You bastards, you killed Jack!  Melting now...
Damn, folfol...what is your IQ anyways? You're posts are amazing, friend. Both briliant and touching...not sure who said the other poster was; my memory is not what it once was. Have you reread this thread? Sid401K a great slash writer, had some pretty profound things to say way back when, regarding Cassie and Ennis.

Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: CANSTANDIT on March 04, 2007, 05:58:44 PM
I hate tube tops but it's fresh to see Cassie getting some credit as a teacher.
;D
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: fofol on March 04, 2007, 07:40:14 PM
I hate tube tops but it's fresh to see Cassie getting some credit as a teacher.


  ;D   :o   ::)    Roflmao
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: fofol on March 04, 2007, 07:54:17 PM
Quote


 >snip<   
 You're posts are amazing, friend. Both briliant and touching...not sure who said the other poster was; my memory is not what it once was. Have you reread this thread? Sid401K a great slash writer, had some pretty profound things to say way back when, regarding Cassie and Ennis.

Quote

I've long admired the hearts who give so freely in these threads.  I've been here for quite a while, but without a computer at home, so I couldn't take part.  I remember SID401k (changed his name though, I think) as a smart man.  Thank you for the compliment CSI.  It means a great deal coming from such a prolific and respectable poster.  Thanks.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: jwm on March 05, 2007, 02:29:13 PM
I think that the time Cassie came into Ennis's life, it was one of his lowest times, he has had taken some pretty hard blows lately, his life was in complete shambles, he had lost his wife, he is not completely cut off from his girls, but has been putting some distance between them, he has hurt Jack again, he has managed to hurt everyone that loved him, has pretty well destroyed any hope that Jack had had, he didn't have a clue how to bridge this gap with his daughters, he feels  more alone now than he ever did  before.

 Enters Cassie, here is a good looking gal, eager for is attentions, showing him he still has it, he doesn't have that big G on his forehead, she is hitting on him pretty good, and right about now it feels good to him. He needed this distraction, he needed this for him, to be able to function, to establish an outlet that people would except, he needed his ego rubbed, he  can now try and behave like he thought he always wanted to, normal, with a woman, he can sit in a public bar, have a beer with her, try to dance, but in all honesty he wasn't happy,he was settling, he wasn't getting out of this relationship what he had hoped, if anything it showed him, that this is not the way for him to go, this wasn't working. Sure it filled up his time, his bed, but never his heart.

 Cassie never really stood a chance, no fault of her own, she just wasn't what he needed or wanted. He tried that once, and it didn't fulfill him, but he never gave up hope, that what he feels for Jack, is a passing thing, very naive of him but that is just Ennis. I think maybe he was trying to make something happen, it should be easy, after all, look at Cassie she is sexy, beautiful, eager, but there is nothing there, as with Alma, Cassie also had a third person in their bed, Jack was always there, always will be, no matter what Ennis's tries to tell himself, or who he tries to substitute him with, he is always there.

 Cassie comes into the bus terminal at a time, when Ennis has just been dealt a heart wrenching, life changing blow, something that he has no idea how to solve. He looks like he has just lost his best friend, which he is on the verge of doing. When she sees that look of bewilderment, that look of a man that he is carring the world on his shoulders, a look of being a million miles away, but unbeknown to her, it is up on BB or in Texas.

 She feels for him, after all she loves this screwed up, confused, damaged man, and she has no way of helping him, she is not what he needs, she has no more of a chance of reaching him,to make it all better for him, and she never had a chance of reaching his heart.

 Ennis might have been sitting there pushing that pie around, trying to make some sense of his life, wondering how in the hell did I let my life get so fukking out of control, how have I managed to hurt and destroy everyone and everything that he loved, and loved him. He has no idea how to fix it, or does he, but can he do it?

 He has been thinking of nothing else since he left Jack standing on BB, after that eye opening goodbye, he has been able to keep Jack at bay, for along time, but now he knows, that Jack is teetering on this very slippery slope, and if he doesn't do something Jack will slip away, and he can't even imagine his life without Jack in. The fact that Jack even mentioned the words quitting him, has put Ennis in such a state, that he finds himself in a place where he is not comfortable, but he knows that Jack has put the ball in his court, and he has two choices, either throw it back to Jack, or just keep it and let Jack go.

 I think that maybe he has thrown that idea around too, let Jack go and try and move on, but when he sees Cassie, and she has shown him that, she loved him, and she would take him back, showed him that, this is not what he needs to do, he now knows that the only place and person he will ever be happy with is Jack, the man that has stuck by him, loved him, taken his crap, supported him, and really all Jack has ever asked of him, was to be as important to him, as Ennis is to Jack, to be Ennis's first choice, and to be more a part of his life. Ennis has always known that Jack would have been happy with any compromise that Ennis offered, anything besides what he gave Jack.
 
 I think that Cassie helped Ennis more than she will know, she helped him make the biggest decision of his life, one I doubt he would have made if she had not walked into that terminal.
 I hope I didn't go OT to far. jwm
 
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: fofol on March 05, 2007, 02:52:40 PM
You're absolutley right jwm: Cassie has helped Ennis more than she will ever know.  I think, however, it is not until she tells him that girls (people) don't fall in love with "fun" that Ennis realizes that he feels miserable since Jack talked about quitting him (great call on your part) that it is "love" that Jack feels for him, and that he feels for Jack.  He knows that what they do is the central element of his life - literally everything else in his life falls apart, dries up or otherwise ends - but he would not be able to call it love, out of sheer ignorance, until Cassie unintentionally demonstrates for him that love hurts, and actually uses the word, "love."  I believe that it is in the terminal that Ennis recognizes that Jack is the love of his life, and that he must tell Jack. It is important to remember that Ennis also didn't know that Cassie loved him until she told him.  He really couldn't love her, just like he couldn't love Alma, and for the same reason.  The poor bugger just thought it was his obligation to try.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Desecra on March 05, 2007, 02:57:19 PM
Ennis might have been sitting there pushing that pie around, trying to make some sense of his life, wondering how in the hell did I let my life get so fukking out of control, how have I managed to hurt and destroy everyone and everything that he loved, and loved him. He has no idea how to fix it, or does he, but can he do it?

Do you think he really thinks that through, though?   I don't think he realises that it all comes down to him - he sees himself as a victim of fate, I think.  There's that feeling of being shortchanged when Alma divorces him, for instance - as if he played no part in it.   I don't think he feels responsible - rather the opposite, that he feels powerless.
Quote
I think that Cassie helped Ennis more than she will know, she helped him make the biggest decision of his life, one I doubt he would have made if she had not walked into that terminal.

Which decision - going to Lightning Flats?  Taking the shirts?   I think it was Jack's death which changed Ennis, not Cassie.   I think she teaches him something, but he doesn't make any decisions because of her, I don't think.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: fofol on March 05, 2007, 04:23:51 PM
Do you think he really thinks that through, though?   I don't think he realises that it all comes down to him - he sees himself as a victim of fate, I think.  There's that feeling of being shortchanged when Alma divorces him, for instance - as if he played no part in it.   I don't think he feels responsible - rather the opposite, that he feels powerless.
Quote

Eureka!  Powerless!  IMO the best single word description of E. Del Mar yet.  The gift of despair from a Dad to a 9 yr old renders the 9 yr old powerless.  Dad's violent lunacy teaches him that he cannot understand people, his feelings do not matter, and he cannot change things.  He is powerless in this world to do what he wants, life's vicissitudes are inevitable and so he becomes merely a cork in the river of life, going wherever the current takes him.  Oh, what a lucky man he was... A random assignment and E Del Mar drifts into the love of a lifetime.  Oooh, what a lucky man he was...
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: gres on March 06, 2007, 01:49:44 AM
Fofol and Des i think Cassie's tears when she tells him that girls don't fall in love with fun hits home with Ennis. I think he really sees the pain he has caused her at the end. At first what he does is to put the blame on her in a way with his remarks but then when he says "i'm sorry" i really think he realises what he has done to her. There is no room for excuses any more and Cassie expresses directly her pain  and her feelings of sorrow and how Ennis has emotionally *maltreated* her.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: fofol on March 06, 2007, 03:15:43 AM
Fofol and Des i think Cassie's tears when she tells him that girls don't fall in love with fun hits home with Ennis. I think he really sees the pain he has caused her at the end. At first what he does is to put the blame on her in a way with his remarks but then when he says "I'm sorry" i really think he realises what he has done to her. There is no room for excuses any more and Cassie expresses directly her pain  and her feelings of sorrow and how Ennis has emotionally *maltreated* her.

Absolutely!  And  when he considers her pain, it all comes back home - his thoughts, never far from Jack, go the sorrow and tears of The Fight.  At this moment the scales fall off his eyes and he realizes that "this thing" is love.
Cassie is not looking to hear, "I'm sorry," she wants (like most of us would, IMO) to hear something like, "Jeez, Cassie, c'mere," along with a warm welcome into his embrace.  Ennis ain't stupid, he just don't know nothin bout affairs of the heart, or people.  But he learns, albeit at a cosmically slow pace.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: gres on March 06, 2007, 04:08:27 AM
Fofol and Des i think Cassie's tears when she tells him that girls don't fall in love with fun hits home with Ennis. I think he really sees the pain he has caused her at the end. At first what he does is to put the blame on her in a way with his remarks but then when he says "I'm sorry" i really think he realises what he has done to her. There is no room for excuses any more and Cassie expresses directly her pain  and her feelings of sorrow and how Ennis has emotionally *maltreated* her.

Absolutely!  And  when he considers her pain, it all comes back home - his thoughts, never far from Jack, go the sorrow and tears of The Fight.  At this moment the scales fall off his eyes and he realizes that "this thing" is love.
Cassie is not looking to hear, "I'm sorry," she wants (like most of us would, IMO) to hear something like, "Jeez, Cassie, c'mere," along with a warm welcome into his embrace.  Ennis ain't stupid, he just don't know nothin bout affairs of the heart, or people.  But he learns, albeit at a cosmically slow pace.

I think Cassie has put him in a place where he has started to think what he might have done to Jack---i don't know if he recognises the love btw him and Jack-i don't know if he has gone that far. However IMO Cassie has forced him into thinking the consequences and the impact of his actions and reactions on Jack
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Desecra on March 06, 2007, 08:48:00 AM
I agree.  It's been suggested that 'fun' = 'sex' - Ennis admits that he wasn't much good at it, but Cassie says that's not what she fell in love with.  At his last meeting with Jack, Jack's virtually accusing him of reducing the relationship to sex, but it wasn't the sex Jack fell in love with.   I do think that starts the wheels turning for Ennis.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: fofol on March 06, 2007, 04:36:00 PM
I agree.  It's been suggested that 'fun' = 'sex' - Ennis admits that he wasn't much good at it, but Cassie says that's not what she fell in love with.  At his last meeting with Jack, Jack's virtually accusing him of reducing the relationship to sex, but it wasn't the sex Jack fell in love with.   I do think that starts the wheels turning for Ennis.

By golly, I think you're right.  Our boys thrive alone together in the wilderness.  At the same time, it is Jack who belittles the best times of Ennis' life as 'high altitude fucks.'  IMO, that's a big part of what brings Ennis to his knees in the fight.  They were in love with one another, it's just that one of them could not see his part in it as such.  He had a fear of death for it, but he couldn't not let it happen, so it had to be out, up, and beyond the ken of everybody, and although Jack was restless with it, he was somewhat content to wait and see when he was younger.  By the time Ennis realized that he could affect change in his life, Jack was beyond the Pale.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: CANSTANDIT on March 06, 2007, 05:48:19 PM
yes, Des, I agree bout the 'fun'- that is exactly the whole reason for that scene with Cassie-pre-fight and post fight Ennis. He has been beaten down emotionally by the truth-he has no place to go but up. Or so we think...

There is a lot of devastation here: It involves Alma, too. She loved him even when the 'fun' wasn't fun....He indeed thinks it is all about sex, because it is the only way he has of expressing his feelings. He does not have the other avenues developed, but even so, he is still loved by severeral people in his life. Not sure how this could be lost on him about Jack; the acting of HL tells us it was not. He is both stunned and sick about it, you can tell.
If I am not mistaken, I see tears in his eyes, as well. He is not insensitive to other's pain, once he no longer denies it. Jack brought him to his knees, after all. I seriously wonder if he really thought Jack was thinking of quitting over a lack of sex, vs the quality of emotional connection? This is where Jack's need for the DE makes a lot of sense too.
I wonder now if his response to Jack's 'sometimes I miss you so much' was about giving him sex-not getting that he was asking for love.
hmmmmm...........
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: fofol on March 06, 2007, 07:57:04 PM
I agree with almost everything, CSI, but one detail: I'm not so sure Ennis "denies" much of anything, as much as he really doesn't know how.  He doesn't know how to not marry Alma.  He knows being with Jack is outrageously better than being with Alma, but he doesn't know how to live a life with him.  And even worse is his utter ignorance of his place and power in the world.  This aspect of his ignorance is the source of his emotional bumbling, which is, in turn, the emantion point for all the misery in Wyoming, and then the shadow of agony hits even the Mountain itself.  Because he cannot understand his own feelings, he doesn't know how others feel.  Ennis does not have a hard heart: when he finally recognizes that he's hurt a lot of people, he is no less pained by his lack of intention.  He truly did not know any better.  Most importantly, he did not know how to grow up.  "Earl" stunned him out of all faith and trust, crumpled up his self-regard and pitched it into the trash.  Finito bonito.  Until Jack.  It really is no wonder that so many people have become Jackaholics.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: CANSTANDIT on March 06, 2007, 11:12:21 PM
I agree with almost everything, CSI, but one detail: I'm not so sure Ennis "denies" much of anything, as much as he really doesn't know how.  He doesn't know how to not marry Alma.  He knows being with Jack is outrageously better than being with Alma, but he doesn't know how to live a life with him.  And even worse is his utter ignorance of his place and power in the world.  This aspect of his ignorance is the source of his emotional bumbling, which is, in turn, the emantion point for all the misery in Wyoming, and then the shadow of agony hits even the Mountain itself.  Because he cannot understand his own feelings, he doesn't know how others feel.  Ennis does not have a hard heart: when he finally recognizes that he's hurt a lot of people, he is no less pained by his lack of intention.  He truly did not know any better.  Most importantly, he did not know how to grow up.  "Earl" stunned him out of all faith and trust, crumpled up his self-regard and pitched it into the trash.  Finito bonito.  Until Jack.  It really is no wonder that so many people have become Jackaholics.
wow, quite a post....new take on Ennis being unknowing rather than in emotional denial....have to think about it. :)
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: jnov on March 07, 2007, 12:11:32 AM
I agree with almost everything, CSI, but one detail: I'm not so sure Ennis "denies" much of anything, as much as he really doesn't know how.  He doesn't know how to not marry Alma.  He knows being with Jack is outrageously better than being with Alma, but he doesn't know how to live a life with him.  And even worse is his utter ignorance of his place and power in the world.  This aspect of his ignorance is the source of his emotional bumbling, which is, in turn, the emantion point for all the misery in Wyoming, and then the shadow of agony hits even the Mountain itself.  Because he cannot understand his own feelings, he doesn't know how others feel.  Ennis does not have a hard heart: when he finally recognizes that he's hurt a lot of people, he is no less pained by his lack of intention.  He truly did not know any better.  Most importantly, he did not know how to grow up.  "Earl" stunned him out of all faith and trust, crumpled up his self-regard and pitched it into the trash.  Finito bonito.  Until Jack.  It really is no wonder that so many people have become Jackaholics.

this is so insightful.  i have a jumble of thoughts over this but i can not articulate them right now.  and besides, they really belong on the ennis/character thread.  maybe later i'll head over there and see if i can make sense of them.  but fofol, this is really great.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Desecra on March 07, 2007, 12:55:20 AM
If I am not mistaken, I see tears in his eyes, as well. He is not insensitive to other's pain, once he no longer denies it. Jack brought him to his knees, after all. I seriously wonder if he really thought Jack was thinking of quitting over a lack of sex, vs the quality of emotional connection? This is where Jack's need for the DE makes a lot of sense too.
I wonder now if his response to Jack's 'sometimes I miss you so much' was about giving him sex-not getting that he was asking for love.
hmmmmm...........

Yes, and to be fair to Ennis, Jack doesn't really let him know outright - he's not specific.  He keeps the dozy embrace memory hidden away.   It was a one-off occurrence.   There's nothing to tell Ennis that that was 'it' for Jack. 

Of course, Ennis isn't able to express love in that way now and the sex after Jack's confession must come across as avoidance.  Even if Jack had been able to tell him what he needed, it might have still been a step too far for Ennis - he'd set the boundaries, set the terms for his denial - and I think the 'Mexico' argument shows that he can't have these challenged.

In his mind, the reason he doesn't have sex with Alma because she doesn't want his babies, not because he doesn't like doing it with women.   He always builds a false reality.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: gres on March 07, 2007, 04:00:12 AM
If I am not mistaken, I see tears in his eyes, as well. He is not insensitive to other's pain, once he no longer denies it. Jack brought him to his knees, after all. I seriously wonder if he really thought Jack was thinking of quitting over a lack of sex, vs the quality of emotional connection? This is where Jack's need for the DE makes a lot of sense too.
I wonder now if his response to Jack's 'sometimes I miss you so much' was about giving him sex-not getting that he was asking for love.
hmmmmm...........

Yes, and to be fair to Ennis, Jack doesn't really let him know outright - he's not specific.  He keeps the dozy embrace memory hidden away.   It was a one-off occurrence.   There's nothing to tell Ennis that that was 'it' for Jack. 

Of course, Ennis isn't able to express love in that way now and the sex after Jack's confession must come across as avoidance.  Even if Jack had been able to tell him what he needed, it might have still been a step too far for Ennis - he'd set the boundaries, set the terms for his denial - and I think the 'Mexico' argument shows that he can't have these challenged.

In his mind, the reason he doesn't have sex with Alma because she doesn't want his babies, not because he doesn't like doing it with women.   He always builds a false reality.

I would say that i cannot disagree with that but him to abandon so easily the sex with Alma which is his only reassurance at that point that he is straight and continouing to have sex only with a man, Jack and that it might be a situation which  could have been going on for years if Alma hadn't filed for a divorce is a one very dangerous new territory Ennis is stepping into. I wonder if he would be able to cope with it, to have  a wife he never f**s and doesn't want to divorce so as to find a new reassurance while he has a man who he f**s, i mean.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Ministering angel on March 07, 2007, 06:10:06 AM
The impression from the story is that Ennis and Alma's sex life had been pretty non-existant for quite a while (rolling to the wall) and so the baby excuse was probably a blessed relief for him.

Always makes me wonder what on earth his sex life with Cassie was like. Assuming there was one. A bit like Jack and Lureen perhaps.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: fofol on March 08, 2007, 04:52:49 PM
Linda Cardellini is an amazing actress.  Her performance is so real, so detailed that people the world over regard her as if she were Cassie.  That little tramp trying to steal Ennis!  And then, that trainwreck of emotions in the terminal.  She's so fantastically right, so incorporated by her character that I, for a long time, honestly didn't see what I was looking at.  Maybe a Gretchen Wilson type, but not ambitious enough to go for it?
She moves Ennis around.  He lets her.  Until, "Sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it."
Poor Cassie.  She was never even concerned as to whether or not she had a chance with Ennis.  She knew she had him.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: gres on March 10, 2007, 03:35:54 AM
Linda Cardellini is an amazing actress.  Her performance is so real, so detailed that people the world over regard her as if she were Cassie.  That little tramp trying to steal Ennis!  And then, that trainwreck of emotions in the terminal.  She's so fantastically right, so incorporated by her character that I, for a long time, honestly didn't see what I was looking at.  Maybe a Gretchen Wilson type, but not ambitious enough to go for it?
She moves Ennis around.  He lets her.  Until, "Sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it."
Poor Cassie.  She was never even concerned as to whether or not she had a chance with Ennis.  She knew she had him.


Does she really believe she had him? I doubt. I think she doesn't know what to make out of him and his actions.When Cassie asks Alma Jr i think she has already started feeling that s'thing isn't right there. Ennis has been *dragging her around* for quite some time as it seems. She thinks, or so it seems to me that sooner or later they should have gone decided to get married but she doesn't recieve from Ennis  the signals she wants and so she ends up asking Alma Jr to tell her what she thinks and maybe to see  if she knows s'thing that would help her to understand why this relationship has stuck and doesn't lead to where she thinks it should and a the same time she doesn't seem to be able to have that discusion with Ennis so as to have the answer she so much needs. I  believe that Ennis even if he has forced himself to act in a certain way so as to convince himself of what he isn't he has done a lousy job because Cassie at the end doesn't understand him--they are together for some time now and maybe the sex is not good but it is not bad either but to her it seems that the emotional conection is far below the average, IMO.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: fofol on March 10, 2007, 06:17:43 AM
Linda Cardellini is an amazing actress.  Her performance is so real, so detailed that people the world over regard her as if she were Cassie.  That little tramp trying to steal Ennis!  And then, that trainwreck of emotions in the terminal.  She's so fantastically right, so incorporated by her character that I, for a long time, honestly didn't see what I was looking at.  Maybe a Gretchen Wilson type, but not ambitious enough to go for it?
She moves Ennis around.  He lets her.  Until, "Sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it."
Poor Cassie.  She was never even concerned as to whether or not she had a chance with Ennis.  She knew she had him.
Does she really believe she had him? I doubt. I think she doesn't know what to make out of him and his actions.When Cassie asks Alma Jr i think she has already started feeling that s'thing isn't right there. Ennis has been *dragging her around* for quite some time as it seems. She thinks, or so it seems to me that sooner or later they should have gone decided to get married but she doesn't recieve from Ennis  the signals she wants and so she ends up asking Alma Jr to tell her what she thinks and maybe to see  if she knows s'thing that would help her to understand why this relationship has stuck and doesn't lead to where she thinks it should and a the same time she doesn't seem to be able to have that discusion with Ennis so as to have the answer she so much needs. I  believe that Ennis even if he has forced himself to act in a certain way so as to convince himself of what he isn't he has done a lousy job because Cassie at the end doesn't understand him--they are together for some time now and maybe the sex is not good but it is not bad either but to her it seems that the emotional contact is far below the average, IMO.

Wow!  I really don't know nothin bout no male/female relationshiping!  I thought she was just trying to include Alma, Jr. in her life.   :-[  Must be my inner Ennis trying to think for me again.  Thank you geeziz, Linda's performance does not depend on my powers of observation and interpretation...
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: jwm on March 11, 2007, 04:55:14 PM
Well when Cassie says I just don't get you EDM , she never understood him, and so how was Jack ever suppose to be able to. She seen him a whole lot more than Jack. She was able to sleep beside Ennis in a bed, wake up in the morning with him at his place, go out and have a beer in public, have a dance, if that is what you call it, meet his daughter, be able to go to his place of work, she had his body, but Jack had his heart. So really what good did it do Jack, when she was able to have everything he has been fighting for. His heart didn't keep him warm at night, or any of the above.
 Jack could never have that, love wasn't enough, and yet Cassie had it all and all she wanted was his love. Oh what an tangled  web they weave. . Ennis was defiantly between a rock and a hard place, and couldn't seem to figure out what to do about it, the more he lived this double life the more confused he was, and when he figured it out, finally coming to the conclusion that his love for Jack won out, he didn't know for sure how to get what he was able to have with Cassie and what he felt for Jack, to all mesh together, with just the one that he wants, Jack.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: fofol on March 11, 2007, 09:05:47 PM
I think Cassie was allowed in his life to help Ennis maintain the personal fiction that he was straight.  She could make him smile, and my guess is that she was as much or more a psychological relief for him than sexual.  I mean, to my knowledge, I've never "put the blocks" to someone I was in love with, or even just really liked.  Done a lot of the same things, no doubt, but would not refer to it with anyone I cared for as that.  But Ennis gets laid plus is "the ranchhand who's screwing Cassie," that cute gal from down at the bar.  The term would seem to devalue the relationship to the status of a task or sporting event, maybe.
BTW Cassie's own homophobia, (the most common kind, an acceptance of stereotypes because it's much easier than using your own mind) prevented her from even thinking to consider that Ennis' reason for not seeing her was simply that he was in love with a guy who lived elsewhere.  Gay was so far beyond her expectations or consideration, it didn't exist.  Plus, they were up to something she liked good enough.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: jwm on March 11, 2007, 09:36:56 PM
I doubt if it was even a passing thought, why would she think anything like that, my god look at him, he is sexy, very willing most of the time, or she wouldn't be there. Him being gay would be the last thing she would have guessed. She just knew that there was something missing, he just never seemed to be happy, aways that sad, unnatural quietness about this very intriging man. She knew there was so much more, inside Ennis she just was never able to reach it.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: mouk on March 12, 2007, 06:00:07 AM
I never got the meaning of 'putting the blocks': does it mean  haveing sex with Cassie, or refusing to marry her?
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: gres on March 12, 2007, 06:22:49 AM
I don't know about the SS but in the film i'm almost sure it has been Cassie putting the blocks to him, not the other way around  but what Ennis would say anyway...
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Dal on March 12, 2007, 06:43:39 AM
... does it mean  haveing sex with Cassie, or refusing to marry her?
The former.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: mouk on March 12, 2007, 07:10:08 AM
 :o Thanks Dal. I wonder how many more bits and piece I am still misunderstanding after 14 months of intensive study  ::) ;D
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Dal on March 12, 2007, 07:12:45 AM
None, I am sure!
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: jnov on March 12, 2007, 07:36:55 AM
hey dal, mr. moderator.  congrats.



whispering: he's nuts if he thinks he can keep this herd of cats corralled.



good luck to you!   ;D
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: fofol on March 14, 2007, 08:47:26 PM
I don't know about the SS but in the film i'm almost sure it has been Cassie putting the blocks to him, not the other way around  but what Ennis would say anyway...

What you said:  uh-huh.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: CANSTANDIT on March 15, 2007, 05:16:05 AM
I'm trying mightily to picture even a first kiss between them; I am guessing Cassie did the necessary aggressive stuff, Ennis went along with it. Even after they'd been dating, on the dance floor he can barely look her in the eye, even with arms around her-and that cigarette always looks like it's gong to light her hair up.
Judging by the  other reactions to her in the first scene of the bar, Ennis is indeed the envy of the male clientele, good point, fofol.
And we know sex was indubitably involved; she puts her feet in his lap. The implication of the echo of Jack putting Ennis's hand on him in FNIT is clear, IMO. But this time, where Ennis pushed Jack away initially in FNIT, he goes right along with Cassie. Of course, note the screen shot of his crotch as he massages her feet-ain't no reaction there. It has been my experience that a hetero man would certainly 'react' almost unconciously to such a move, esp touching the female. I wonder if that was why the scene was shot in close up like that... Ennis is just along for a ride that makes him feel like the man he wishes he was, I think. But he is not particularly turned on by her. I just don't feel anything from him in that scene. Even as he dances so awkwardly at first with her, he is eyeing her body as if trying to find something to react to. Watch his face closely as he watches her dance.
I think he is mostly flattered by the attention; and wants to have some proof he can still be attractive to  a woman, esp after the 'move to Texas and herd sheep' argument with Jack. They touched on something they usually know but usually avoid, part of the 'no news' in the end of the last scene together, maybe. So he needed to feel more straight than ususal, perhaps.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: sugarcheryl on March 15, 2007, 12:07:50 PM
Ennis is so funny in this scene. When Cassie puts her feet on him....he says to her "what'er ya doin'" same thing he says to jack in the FNIT. Of course I would of said the same thing at that point, but to Cassie?? I dunno.....didnt Alma ever put her feet oh her husbands lap for a massage? Seems like such a natural thing to do. But then his question to her makes me think no...cause a mans automatic reaction to that would be to massage them. Dragging him to the dance floor with him sarcastically giving her his last name, ctacks me up everytime. The whole scene just makes me feel that Ennis doesnt want to be there. Only going through the motions so to say. Trying not to be rude.

The thing that makes me think about their "relationship" is....they must of had tallk....I mean when they were in bed together. I am pretty sure they had sex together. Did they share conversation? Maybe not intimate coversation....but conversation none the less. He knew she wanted to be a nurse....that she was going to school. I guess I just dont understand her strong attachment to him. He really seemed like a hard person to get to know. Didnt call her and make talk....you know Cassie was the aggressor. I mean she had to feel something was "different" about Ennis. The only time I ever saw him "come out of character" was at the Thanksgiving scene when he was describing his bronc riding to his girls. He was all goofy and smily talking to his girls. But the final scene with Cassie and Ennis, she was just soo upset. I mean I know love is something you cant control, but Ennis.....I dont know Ennis is just a hard character to fall inlove with.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: CANSTANDIT on March 15, 2007, 12:34:18 PM
Ennis is so funny in this scene. When Cassie puts her feet on him....he says to her "what'er ya doin'" same thing he says to jack in the FNIT. Of course I would of said the same thing at that point, but to Cassie?? I dunno.....didnt Alma ever put her feet oh her husbands lap for a massage? Seems like such a natural thing to do. But then his question to her makes me think no...cause a mans automatic reaction to that would be to massage them. Dragging him to the dance floor with him sarcastically giving her his last name, ctacks me up everytime. The whole scene just makes me feel that Ennis doesnt want to be there. Only going through the motions so to say. Trying not to be rude.

The thing that makes me think about their "relationship" is....they must of had tallk....I mean when they were in bed together. I am pretty sure they had sex together. Did they share conversation? Maybe not intimate coversation....but conversation none the less. He knew she wanted to be a nurse....that she was going to school. I guess I just dont understand her strong attachment to him. He really seemed like a hard person to get to know. Didnt call her and make talk....you know Cassie was the aggressor. I mean she had to feel something was "different" about Ennis. The only time I ever saw him "come out of character" was at the Thanksgiving scene when he was describing his bronc riding to his girls. He was all goofy and smily talking to his girls. But the final scene with Cassie and Ennis, she was just soo upset. I mean I know love is something you cant control, but Ennis.....I dont know Ennis is just a hard character to fall inlove with.
Hi, Sugarcheryl..my impression is that Ennis is fairly animated-for Ennis-in the first dancing scene. I think when he says his last name, and kind of presses his lips together, there is self-satisfaction: See Jack, I didn't forget this time.I think he is highly motivated to explore this opportunity-but I do agree that Cassie personally, does not interest him.
The tragedy is he clearly could have made more progress with Jack, had he been aware of her true feelings for him; he thinks he was a sexual object to her, but she fell in love with him, the person-not the fun.
That would've been a bit of a revelation to him about Jack, earlier, than the last scene, perhaps.
thoughts?
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Ministering angel on March 16, 2007, 12:37:27 AM
A thought just floated through my mind. She fell in love with the person not the sex. I've no doubt Cassie was after sex initially, as well as someone to just be with, but did Ennis ever see simple friendship with her? Was sex his only way of communicating with anyone, apart from people with whom he had a prescribed relationship, like a boss or his daughters? Did he fear friendship and the openness that implied? You can screw someone and never really reveal yourself to them. I wonder if that's how all his liaisons went, assuming there were any.

And how ironic that would be for someone who was engaged in sex with someone of the wrong gender (for them)
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: CANSTANDIT on March 16, 2007, 08:30:23 AM
A thought just floated through my mind. She fell in love with the person not the sex. I've no doubt Cassie was after sex initially, as well as someone to just be with, but did Ennis ever see simple friendship with her? Was sex his only way of communicating with anyone, apart from people with whom he had a prescribed relationship, like a boss or his daughters? Did he fear friendship and the openness that implied? You can screw someone and never really reveal yourself to them. I wonder if that's how all his liaisons went, assuming there were any.

And how ironic that would be for someone who was engaged in sex with someone of the wrong gender (for them)
yeah, that's Ennis-its what I've been trying to formulate for awhile now; He is an introverted son of a gun, who has other traumas at work besides being gay: he has been severly abandoned. He is an orphan. That is a whole other set of problems; deprivation, a taking away of basic human needs, for no good reason. That has got to make someone think of themselves as an outsider, the island in the sea.
So much more goes into this than 'I'm not no queer'.
 Vermont Sunset makes a good point in this light: Maybe Ennis is aware of the whole ball of wax; of being the torured outsider, and his sexuality just adds to the maelstrom. 'I' may be queer on top o everthin else..."
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Ministering angel on March 16, 2007, 09:38:18 PM
Nicely put, CSI. Being queer is just another cross he has to bear. So is ,in a way, having sex he doesn't enjoy. Dammit, duty calls.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Ministering angel on March 27, 2007, 07:27:17 AM

I've vacillated over whether Ennis was lying completely to Jack about his putting the blocks to a woman at the Wolf's Ears Bar but I've decided it's not something he would make up entirely. He is trying to convince himself that he is straight, as well as keeping up the straight facade for Jack (who undoubtedly saw clean through it). If Ennis made up the whole thing, that would be too obvious even for him to explain away to himself.

He needs to see himself as straight and so I feel he would base his story on something then possibly inflate it. If he's still convincing himself, then I think he'd do some perfunctory flirting or whatever, so that he can always see an escape route. He can tell himself, "If I wanted to, if I had to...". He must tell himself that he simply doesn't choose to remarry or have a serious relationship but he'd still need to have some vague basis for that bit of self-deception.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: CANSTANDIT on March 27, 2007, 07:57:25 PM

I've vacillated over whether Ennis was lying completely to Jack about his putting the blocks to a woman at the Wolf's Ears Bar but I've decided it's not something he would make up entirely. He is trying to convince himself that he is straight, as well as keeping up the straight facade for Jack (who undoubtedly saw clean through it). If Ennis made up the whole thing, that would be too obvious even for him to explain away to himself.

He needs to see himself as straight and so I feel he would base his story on something then possibly inflate it. If he's still convincing himself, then I think he'd do some perfunctory flirting or whatever, so that he can always see an escape route. He can tell himself, "If I wanted to, if I had to...". He must tell himself that he simply doesn't choose to remarry or have a serious relationship but he'd still need to have some vague basis for that bit of self-deception.

It's true, I speculated a mild flirtation that he has blown up; but the truths and lies she talks about-what do you think Ennis is lying about, just out of curiosity? We know Jack is lying about the  wife...Speculate?
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: jnov on March 28, 2007, 12:12:30 AM

I've vacillated over whether Ennis was lying completely to Jack about his putting the blocks to a woman at the Wolf's Ears Bar but I've decided it's not something he would make up entirely. He is trying to convince himself that he is straight, as well as keeping up the straight facade for Jack (who undoubtedly saw clean through it). If Ennis made up the whole thing, that would be too obvious even for him to explain away to himself.

He needs to see himself as straight and so I feel he would base his story on something then possibly inflate it. If he's still convincing himself, then I think he'd do some perfunctory flirting or whatever, so that he can always see an escape route. He can tell himself, "If I wanted to, if I had to...". He must tell himself that he simply doesn't choose to remarry or have a serious relationship but he'd still need to have some vague basis for that bit of self-deception.

It's true, I speculated a mild flirtation that he has blown up; but the truths and lies she talks about-what do you think Ennis is lying about, just out of curiosity? We know Jack is lying about the  wife...Speculate?

how 'bout the idea that he ain't queer?
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: CANSTANDIT on March 28, 2007, 01:37:43 AM

I've vacillated over whether Ennis was lying completely to Jack about his putting the blocks to a woman at the Wolf's Ears Bar but I've decided it's not something he would make up entirely. He is trying to convince himself that he is straight, as well as keeping up the straight facade for Jack (who undoubtedly saw clean through it). If Ennis made up the whole thing, that would be too obvious even for him to explain away to himself.

He needs to see himself as straight and so I feel he would base his story on something then possibly inflate it. If he's still convincing himself, then I think he'd do some perfunctory flirting or whatever, so that he can always see an escape route. He can tell himself, "If I wanted to, if I had to...". He must tell himself that he simply doesn't choose to remarry or have a serious relationship but he'd still need to have some vague basis for that bit of self-deception.

It's true, I speculated a mild flirtation that he has blown up; but the truths and lies she talks about-what do you think Ennis is lying about, just out of curiosity? We know Jack is lying about the  wife...Speculate?

how 'bout the idea that he ain't queer?
oh, please... :D..I meant specifically regarding the conversation; their lies and truths-I mean, Jack is lying about the queer part, too. I meant what exactly are the lies being told, literally...Jack about the nieghbor, Ennis about...???
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Ministering angel on March 28, 2007, 09:29:28 AM
Putting the blocks to...? I wouldn't put it past him to have maybe snuggled up a bit over the bar, given her a bit of a kiss on the cheek, nothing you can't do in public, then figured that he COULD put the blocks to her if he wanted to but, hey, she's got problems so maybe he won't.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: jnov on March 28, 2007, 11:35:49 AM
oh, please... :D..I meant specifically regarding the conversation; their lies and truths-I mean, Jack is lying about the queer part, too. I meant what exactly are the lies being told, literally...Jack about the nieghbor, Ennis about...???

alright then, i don't think ennis is lying about anything he specifically says in that conversation. 
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: fofol on March 28, 2007, 04:27:43 PM
oh, please... :D..I meant specifically regarding the conversation; their lies and truths-I mean, Jack is lying about the queer part, too. I meant what exactly are the lies being told, literally...Jack about the neighbor, Ennis about...???

alright then, i don't think Ennis is lying about anything he specifically says in that conversation. 


Well, we have been told/shown that the structure of the film is an acontiguous series of 'snapshots' some of which, by design, will not necessarily be complete. (Never enough time, never enough.)  If Ennis lied here, his tale may not have driven the story enough or may not have whipped up the proper level of emotions or thought, and so were edited out or as easily were never written, not for lack of importance, but for lack of need to propel the characters to their various ends.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: lauren on March 28, 2007, 06:43:10 PM
I agree with almost everything, CSI, but one detail: I'm not so sure Ennis "denies" much of anything, as much as he really doesn't know how.  He doesn't know how to not marry Alma.  He knows being with Jack is outrageously better than being with Alma, but he doesn't know how to live a life with him.  And even worse is his utter ignorance of his place and power in the world.  This aspect of his ignorance is the source of his emotional bumbling, which is, in turn, the emantion point for all the misery in Wyoming, and then the shadow of agony hits even the Mountain itself.  Because he cannot understand his own feelings, he doesn't know how others feel.  Ennis does not have a hard heart: when he finally recognizes that he's hurt a lot of people, he is no less pained by his lack of intention.  He truly did not know any better.  Most importantly, he did not know how to grow up.  "Earl" stunned him out of all faith and trust, crumpled up his self-regard and pitched it into the trash.  Finito bonito.  Until Jack.  It really is no wonder that so many people have become Jackaholics.
I agree fofol. I've always felt that Ennis can't help doing what he does because that's all he knows how to do. He did what was expected of him and any other young man at that time and place. I've always been convinced that if Ennis knew of a way to be with Jack, from the very start, he would have taken that route. He doesn't want to leave him after BBM but he doesn't know how to stay and what they could possibly do. He's so heart-broken and jumbled up inside, he can't see straight. To him, it must have seemed impossible (to remain together), but still he offers Jack the "see ya around" as an opening, a hope.
If he didn't know how to grow up, it was because the man that he was lived in Jack's heart, and Jack in his, and they couldn't express that love openly. At the same time, I think that their relationship made them into the men that they were meant to be, especially when they were together.

I think the lie in the conversation is Ennis saying he's putting the blocks to the little gal over in Riverton when he's really not doing that. He may imagine he is, but it's really just talk and bullshitting back and forth. You know his heart has long been claimed, and he knows it too, so he says something else so he doesn't have to say what they both have never been able to talk about: how much they mean to one another.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: fofol on April 01, 2007, 01:42:15 AM
Good point Lauren, about Ennis maybe not "putting the blocks" to Cassie.  I'm a movie-first person, and although I love the short story, I have always seen it as the basic element, but only one element of the final production, the film.  For movie Ennis, Cassie is a perfect foil - she can do everything that Jack cannot, even though Jack and Ennis had been in love with one another for years.  But, as they say in the backwaters of Trois Rivieres, there she was, gone!  You can tell from the look in Ennis' face at the "joint" conversation the night before the big fight.  Immediately when Jack tells Ennis that he can hardly stand it he misses him so much sometimes,  Ennis relaxes (because he understands - he's been through it), and buh-bye, Cassie passes into the night from whence she came.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: fofol on April 02, 2007, 03:03:48 PM
...but, there is the white wine that Alma Jr and Ennis use to toast her upcoming marriage.  I have read that that is the legacy of Cassie - not that particular bottle (who could know?) but the fact that he has white wine (E. Del Mar, yuppie?. Francophile?  Hmm.  No.), gotta be a legacy of Cassie.  So she has been to the trailer....
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: CANSTANDIT on April 02, 2007, 03:15:39 PM
...but, there is the white wine that Alma Jr and Ennis use to toast her upcoming marriage.  I have read that that is the legacy of Cassie - not that particular bottle (who could know?) but the fact that he has white wine (E. Del Mar, yuppie?. Francophile?  Hmm.  No.), gotta be a legacy of Cassie.  So she has been to the trailer....
That bottle prompted one of the more light-hearted discussions we had last year on these threads, I think it might be somewhere in S&I. Some people took it as Ennis going modern gay; others as he's farsighted and bought wine instead of whiskey, so thought, what the hell; and yet others saw it as symbolic-the matrimonial sharing of wine, over the impending marriage of AJ , and the symbolic union, in Ennis's heart, with Jack.
That whole scene could have a bookend in the trailer scene with Aguirre, the 'came together' on paper-the official bonding, the wedding certificate. Only Ennis can't know it until the end, after Jack's death-so he does it thru AJ and the sharing of wine.
Take your pick, or some stay with Cassie was in the trailer. We know she was anyway on film-'I left those notes at your place.'
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: gres on April 02, 2007, 04:38:57 PM
...but, there is the white wine that Alma Jr and Ennis use to toast her upcoming marriage.  I have read that that is the legacy of Cassie - not that particular bottle (who could know?) but the fact that he has white wine (E. Del Mar, yuppie?. Francophile?  Hmm.  No.), gotta be a legacy of Cassie.  So she has been to the trailer....
That bottle prompted one of the more light-hearted discussions we had last year on these threads, I think it might be somewhere in S&I. Some people took it as Ennis going modern gay; others as he's farsighted and bought wine instead of whiskey, so thought, what the hell; and yet others saw it as symbolic-the matrimonial sharing of wine, over the impending marriage of AJ , and the symbolic union, in Ennis's heart, with Jack.
That whole scene could have a bookend in the trailer scene with Aguirre, the 'came together' on paper-the official bonding, the wedding certificate. Only Ennis can't know it until the end, after Jack's death-so he does it thru AJ and the sharing of wine.
Take your pick, or some stay with Cassie was in the trailer. We know she was anyway on film-'I left those notes at your place.'


That white wine...s'thing like a "white marriage" btw Ennis and Cassie maybe.....
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Rosewood on April 02, 2007, 04:43:01 PM
How do we know that it is white wine?
Just because the liquid is clear in the bottle?
Vodka is clear.
Gin is clear.
How do we know? Does Ennis mention wine?
I totally missed this.
A wine moment?
Hmmm.

Not that it matters much.
Maybe Linda Higgins gave him the wine.  :)
Along with the postcard.

Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: gres on April 02, 2007, 05:04:25 PM
How do we know that it is white wine?
Just because the liquid is clear in the bottle?

Nope rosewood, it is in the screenplay (not in the SS as far as i remember).....that is why we know...
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: CANSTANDIT on April 02, 2007, 05:07:52 PM
How do we know that it is white wine?
Just because the liquid is clear in the bottle?
Vodka is clear.
Gin is clear.
How do we know? Does Ennis mention wine?
I totally missed this.
A wine moment?
Hmmm.

Not that it matters much.
Maybe Linda Higgins gave him the wine.  :)
Along with the postcard.


the script says it is a bottle of wine-and you can see it in the film-that is a legacy from Cassie. hence the jokes-not a big symbol, unless we apply it to the ceremony theory.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Rosewood on April 02, 2007, 05:10:17 PM
How do we know that it is white wine?
Just because the liquid is clear in the bottle?

Nope rosewood, it is in the screenplay (not in the SS as far as i remember).....that is why we know...

The screenplay is one thing, but does it actually show up on the screen?
Just wondering.
This makes me think that Ennis has been seeing some woman.
This makes me uneasy.

Oh no it doesn't.
Just because the screenwriters are okay with Ennis having wine in
his fridge, doesn't mean I have to accept it. HA! 

There are none so blind as those who will not see.  ;D
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Dal on April 02, 2007, 05:12:48 PM
Thank God they did not use red wine, or there would be no end of talk about it on S & I!!
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: gres on April 02, 2007, 05:15:54 PM

The screenplay is one thing, but does it actually show up on the screen?
Just wondering.
This makes me think that Ennis has been seeing some woman.
This makes me uneasy.

Oh no it doesn't.
Just because the screenwriters are okay with Ennis having wine in
his fridge, doesn't mean I have to accept it. HA! 

There are none so blind as those who will not see.  ;D

I don't want this to bring you any uneasiness, my dear...in the film i think it is white wine or so it seems to me...nothing important to argue upon  anyway  :)...
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: CANSTANDIT on April 02, 2007, 05:23:50 PM
How do we know that it is white wine?
Just because the liquid is clear in the bottle?

Nope rosewood, it is in the screenplay (not in the SS as far as i remember).....that is why we know...

The screenplay is one thing, but does it actually show up on the screen?
Just wondering.
This makes me think that Ennis has been seeing some woman.
This makes me uneasy.

Oh no it doesn't.
Just because the screenwriters are okay with Ennis having wine in
his fridge, doesn't mean I have to accept it. HA! 

There are none so blind as those who will not see.  ;D
yeah, I'm not happy with our boy galavanting about with some trollop.... ;)
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: lauren on April 02, 2007, 05:50:35 PM
...but, there is the white wine that Alma Jr and Ennis use to toast her upcoming marriage.  I have read that that is the legacy of Cassie - not that particular bottle (who could know?) but the fact that he has white wine (E. Del Mar, yuppie?. Francophile?  Hmm.  No.), gotta be a legacy of Cassie.  So she has been to the trailer....
That bottle prompted one of the more light-hearted discussions we had last year on these threads, I think it might be somewhere in S&I. Some people took it as Ennis going modern gay; others as he's farsighted and bought wine instead of whiskey, so thought, what the hell; and yet others saw it as symbolic-the matrimonial sharing of wine, over the impending marriage of AJ , and the symbolic union, in Ennis's heart, with Jack.
That whole scene could have a bookend in the trailer scene with Aguirre, the 'came together' on paper-the official bonding, the wedding certificate. Only Ennis can't know it until the end, after Jack's death-so he does it thru AJ and the sharing of wine.
Take your pick, or some stay with Cassie was in the trailer. We know she was anyway on film-'I left those notes at your place.'


Ah, the wine.  ;) I think that when Cassie says "I left some notes at your place" she means she left them at his front door, in an envelope under his mat, or attached to his screen door. I don't think she had keys to his place and could just walk in. It never felt to me that she had that particular priviledge with him; it's not indicated in the film. And I can't imagine she would walk in with a bottle of wine anyway. And, after the diner scene, Ennis is finished with Cassie (well, they were finished IMO before Jack and Ennis' last scene together) and it negates that scene to imagine he then sees her after that. I don't think he ever saw Cassie again. He didn't want to see her at the diner.

I took the wine's presence simply to mean that Ennis is, like always, drinking (like Jack, to ease the pain), and that cheap wine is even cheaper than rot-gut whiskey, and he got used to it when he dated Cassie, so there it is in his fridge. That's the only "legacy" from Cassie. A wine habit (perhaps) that Ennis got accostomed to. 

I do like the thought of the wine associated with toasting Alma Jr.'s happiness, and the echo that they should also be toasting (in another better kind of world) the union of Ennis and Jack, which took place essentially 20 years before.
That's how I always see that moment: "How long you known this guy for?" "About a year." ( Ennis knew Jack three or four months when he had fallen in love with him, and could not marry him then or ever, and after 20 years (fully a marriage of the heart), they still could not even speak of it, much less marry.)
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: CANSTANDIT on April 02, 2007, 05:57:24 PM
...but, there is the white wine that Alma Jr and Ennis use to toast her upcoming marriage.  I have read that that is the legacy of Cassie - not that particular bottle (who could know?) but the fact that he has white wine (E. Del Mar, yuppie?. Francophile?  Hmm.  No.), gotta be a legacy of Cassie.  So she has been to the trailer....
That bottle prompted one of the more light-hearted discussions we had last year on these threads, I think it might be somewhere in S&I. Some people took it as Ennis going modern gay; others as he's farsighted and bought wine instead of whiskey, so thought, what the hell; and yet others saw it as symbolic-the matrimonial sharing of wine, over the impending marriage of AJ , and the symbolic union, in Ennis's heart, with Jack.
That whole scene could have a bookend in the trailer scene with Aguirre, the 'came together' on paper-the official bonding, the wedding certificate. Only Ennis can't know it until the end, after Jack's death-so he does it thru AJ and the sharing of wine.
Take your pick, or some stay with Cassie was in the trailer. We know she was anyway on film-'I left those notes at your place.'


Ah, the wine.  ;) I think that when Cassie says "I left some notes at your place" she means she left them at his front door, in an envelope under his mat, or attached to his screen door. I don't think she had keys to his place and could just walk in. It never felt to me that she had that particular priviledge with him; it's not indicated in the film. And I can't imagine she would walk in with a bottle of wine anyway. And, after the diner scene, Ennis is finished with Cassie (well, they were finished IMO before Jack and Ennis' last scene together) and it negates that scene to imagine he then sees her after that. I don't think he ever saw Cassie again. He didn't want to see her at the diner.

I took the wine's presence simply to mean that Ennis is, like always, drinking (like Jack, to ease the pain), and that cheap wine is even cheaper than rot-gut whiskey, and he got used to it when he dated Cassie, so there it is in his fridge. That's the only "legacy" from Cassie. A wine habit (perhaps) that Ennis got accostomed to. 

I do like the thought of the wine associated with toasting Alma Jr.'s happiness, and the echo that they should also be toasting (in another better kind of world) the union of Ennis and Jack, which took place essentially 20 years before.
That's how I always see that moment: "How long you known this guy for?" "About a year." ( Ennis knew Jack three or four months when he had fallen in love with him, and could not marry him then or ever, and after 20 years (fully a marriage of the heart), they still could not even speak of it, much less marry.)
ah, Lauren, in denial about Cassie,  huh, that trollop-!! :D :D :D ;)
just kidding...

Not a big issue for me, certainly..I speculated over her existance at all in the SS-but there are a couple of things that tell me something re: the film_I doubt she'd know where he lives for no reason; and in the beginning, she puts her feet in his lap-the echo of Jack grabbing Ennis's hand. So to me, that meant they were headed for bed.
That being the case, and Ennis being only mildly interested, I think Cassie is the type who would desperately look for his attention, and in fact, just show up at his trailer-he'd think, 'why not? I can pretend its Jack'-unless he had real feelings for her. Niether book nor film indicate this. But he is not above having expedient sex with her, I don't think. And if he did-is there any reason she would not be at his trailer?
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: lauren on April 02, 2007, 06:53:26 PM
...but, there is the white wine that Alma Jr and Ennis use to toast her upcoming marriage.  I have read that that is the legacy of Cassie - not that particular bottle (who could know?) but the fact that he has white wine (E. Del Mar, yuppie?. Francophile?  Hmm.  No.), gotta be a legacy of Cassie.  So she has been to the trailer....
That bottle prompted one of the more light-hearted discussions we had last year on these threads, I think it might be somewhere in S&I. Some people took it as Ennis going modern gay; others as he's farsighted and bought wine instead of whiskey, so thought, what the hell; and yet others saw it as symbolic-the matrimonial sharing of wine, over the impending marriage of AJ , and the symbolic union, in Ennis's heart, with Jack.
That whole scene could have a bookend in the trailer scene with Aguirre, the 'came together' on paper-the official bonding, the wedding certificate. Only Ennis can't know it until the end, after Jack's death-so he does it thru AJ and the sharing of wine.
Take your pick, or some stay with Cassie was in the trailer. We know she was anyway on film-'I left those notes at your place.'


Ah, the wine.  ;) I think that when Cassie says "I left some notes at your place" she means she left them at his front door, in an envelope under his mat, or attached to his screen door. I don't think she had keys to his place and could just walk in. It never felt to me that she had that particular priviledge with him; it's not indicated in the film. And I can't imagine she would walk in with a bottle of wine anyway. And, after the diner scene, Ennis is finished with Cassie (well, they were finished IMO before Jack and Ennis' last scene together) and it negates that scene to imagine he then sees her after that. I don't think he ever saw Cassie again. He didn't want to see her at the diner.

I took the wine's presence simply to mean that Ennis is, like always, drinking (like Jack, to ease the pain), and that cheap wine is even cheaper than rot-gut whiskey, and he got used to it when he dated Cassie, so there it is in his fridge. That's the only "legacy" from Cassie. A wine habit (perhaps) that Ennis got accostomed to. 

I do like the thought of the wine associated with toasting Alma Jr.'s happiness, and the echo that they should also be toasting (in another better kind of world) the union of Ennis and Jack, which took place essentially 20 years before.
That's how I always see that moment: "How long you known this guy for?" "About a year." ( Ennis knew Jack three or four months when he had fallen in love with him, and could not marry him then or ever, and after 20 years (fully a marriage of the heart), they still could not even speak of it, much less marry.)
ah, Lauren, in denial about Cassie,  huh, that trollop-!! :D :D :D ;)
just kidding...

Not a big issue for me, certainly..I speculated over her existance at all in the SS-but there are a couple of things that tell me something re: the film_I doubt she'd know where he lives for no reason; and in the beginning, she puts her feet in his lap-the echo of Jack grabbing Ennis's hand. So to me, that meant they were headed for bed.
That being the case, and Ennis being only mildly interested, I think Cassie is the type who would desperately look for his attention, and in fact, just show up at his trailer-he'd think, 'why not? I can pretend its Jack'-unless he had real feelings for her. Niether book nor film indicate this. But he is not above having expedient sex with her, I don't think. And if he did-is there any reason she would not be at his trailer?

Hey CSI, not a big deal for me either about expedient sex (thinking of Jack), though I'm not as certain as some about that. No matter since he doesn't really care about her. But if he did have sex with her, sure she would be at his trailer at some point. No disagreement there. But, back to the wine  ;) and the last scene: it's been two years after Jack's death, and he's long since ditched her (before the diner scene--she hasn't been back), so either that's a very old bottle of nearly vinegar wine from an old bottle of Cassie's (in which case Alma Jr. would have looked stricken and spit it out), or Ennis just found wine has a high alcohol content and is pretty cheap all things considered. I go with the latter. It's just a realistic touch.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: CANSTANDIT on April 02, 2007, 09:40:40 PM
that's cool....I agree the wine would be a titch old...but just one thing: Jack dies the year Alma turns 19-and she is not yet twenty in the engagement conversation-right? Do I have that timing right??
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: jnov on April 03, 2007, 06:06:18 AM
rosewood, you can check out the bottle here

http://www.stripedwall.com/cpg/displayimage.php?album=182&pos=458

and then do with the information as you will.

i do that a lot.  ;) ::)
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: lauren on April 03, 2007, 06:36:06 AM
that's cool....I agree the wine would be a titch old...but just one thing: Jack dies the year Alma turns 19-and she is not yet twenty in the engagement conversation-right? Do I have that timing right??

You're right, Junior would be 19 (born in 64) when Jack dies, so the scene in the trailer would take place perhaps several months after Jack dies, not two years. For some reason, I've thought he's still paying child support for Junior when Jack dies, but it's Jenny. So that fine vintage may still be drinkable  ;) if it's an old bottle left before he dumps Cassie. But, I think that he would have finished it off fairly quickly. It still strikes me that he just picked up that wine habit. 
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Ministering angel on April 03, 2007, 08:16:05 AM
Turning into an old wino sounds soooo Ennis  ;D >:D >:D

I figured the halfway decent pillow was a Cassie legacy. And you know what THAT means.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: CANSTANDIT on April 03, 2007, 08:29:13 AM
Turning into an old wino sounds soooo Ennis  ;D >:D >:D

I figured the halfway decent pillow was a Cassie legacy. And you know what THAT means.
Really? I thought it was the untouched Jack pillow-the one Ennis imagines Jack lying on next to him, on the nights he clutches the shirts to him,when he can't take it anymore... :'(..he keeps it nice and fresh. He never knows when Jack might knock on his door, and prove it was all a bad nightmare....If he must 'live' in dreams, what good, as AP says, is reality to him?
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Ministering angel on April 03, 2007, 08:31:04 AM
It's a nice image but I can't see Ennis trotting down to the nearest whatevermart and specially buying a Jack pillow.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Desecra on April 03, 2007, 12:11:22 PM
According the the screenplay, the last meeting is in 1981, and the scene with Alma Jr is in 1984.   I'm not sure if this is a mistake or not.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: lauren on April 03, 2007, 01:41:17 PM
Turning into an old wino sounds soooo Ennis  ;D >:D >:D

I figured the halfway decent pillow was a Cassie legacy. And you know what THAT means.

Ennis is a meticulous man; I think he'd like a fairly decent pillow for himself. And that's where he wakes up after his dreams of Jack. And, there is the red blanket on the bed, reminicent of Jack (being hs color). In any case, I don't think of Cassie at all when I see the trailer scene. She's long gone.

Just to clarify CSI, what I mean by "privileges" is that she wasn't living with him and I imagine didn't have a key to his place. But regardless, she meant nothing to him, as she eventually learned.

I realized that Junior was born in Sept. of 64 (according to the book, Alma was pregnant in Dec. of 63 as I recall) so she would have been 18 on Ennis and Jack's last trip together. So, it could have been a year and a half or moer when she and Ennis share the glass of wine in the trailer. So, that wine would still be ancient grapes and likely unpalatable if it had been left by C so long ago ;) Wtih that, I leave the screw top wine bottle issue  :D

In their last trip together when Ennis says of Cassie, "wants to be a nurse or somethin,"  it drips with boredom. If a person missed how uninterested he is in her in previous scenes, this phrase is loud and clear. But, of course he wasn't interested, being already long in love with Jack.

Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: CANSTANDIT on April 03, 2007, 02:22:37 PM
It's a nice image but I can't see Ennis trotting down to the nearest whatevermart and specially buying a Jack pillow.
;D don't make me go there..... ;D
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Rosewood on April 03, 2007, 03:03:33 PM

....If he must 'live' in dreams, what good, as AP says, is reality to him?

I like this so much, CSI.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: lauren on April 03, 2007, 06:16:33 PM
According the the screenplay, the last meeting is in 1981, and the scene with Alma Jr is in 1984.   I'm not sure if this is a mistake or not.

There's mistakes in the screenplay regarding dates, even page to page in one instance as I recall, so I disregard it as any kind of reliable source.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: CANSTANDIT on April 03, 2007, 08:22:21 PM

....If he must 'live' in dreams, what good, as AP says, is reality to him?

I like this so much, CSI.
aw, jeez...tx.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Ministering angel on April 04, 2007, 08:25:57 AM
I've changed my mind on the pillow. I think maybe the set people had the idea of a pillow to represent Jack's presence in his dreams. I guess it's a nod to the prologue.

I still don't see him specially buying it however.

Lauren, how do you see him as being meticulous? It's not a word I would have used about our pube-scratching darling.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: CANSTANDIT on April 04, 2007, 08:36:21 AM
I've changed my mind on the pillow. I think maybe the set people had the idea of a pillow to represent Jack's presence in his dreams. I guess it's a nod to the prologue.

I still don't see him specially buying it however.

Lauren, how do you see him as being meticulous? It's not a word I would have used about our pube-scratching darling.
OMG, I just had a thought about the pillow...gimme a while to think it thru. If it coughs itself up like a furball, I'll post it.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Sunshine on April 25, 2007, 06:09:12 PM
Looks like no one has been around here lately but I have a question. What song  did Ennis pick on the Jukebox right befoe he dances with Cassie when He ,cassie and Jr. are all there? It sounds like something about a pony running free but I can't make it out. The song is familiar but can't place it. Thanks!
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Dal on April 25, 2007, 08:03:52 PM
^^^^
"Melissa."  Allman Brothers Band.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Sunshine on April 25, 2007, 09:01:45 PM
Dal, thanks!
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Ministering angel on April 27, 2007, 10:16:27 AM
If you check the lyrics, you'll find they have a sad Ennisy quality to them. It's the only music we hear him choose apart from humming on the mountain, and it's sad and lonely stuff.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: CANSTANDIT on April 28, 2007, 08:12:55 AM
ok, I've always felt the jukebox scene is a replay of J&E 'meeting', and I think the filmmakers give us somewhat pat comparisons, but they work in the long run:

They shake hands outside the trailer-work (real, manly stuff);
Cassie grabs Ennis's hand in the bar-play (not real-women)

Jack says his full name-Ennis only says first name-doesn't want to give away too much-attractive male, threatening;
Cassie says full name-Ennis says both, after a pause-remembers this is a woman, no problem, no issues, basic courtesy-learned from Jack;

Ennis 'watches' Jack do the rodeo dance at the fire-He must turn to watch, make an effort, he can't help it-he is laughing, having fun-he is also getting warmed from liquor, but not quite yet-he just started drinking with that one shot from Jack, after his meal-there is no forced loss of inhibition-he lets his guard down without being able to help it-in the book he wants to paw the white out of the moon at the end;

Ennis gets dragged onto dance floor, expectations from Cassie, he is embarassed, not having fun, and he watches her with little pleasure-I get the feeling he is looking hard to find that feeling he has with Jack, watch him watch her in this scene-its just not there. And he is pretty toasted, look at all the beer bottles on his table-plenty enough to take the edge off. He is not turned on, not really.....no sense of lust about it, is there? More a sense of resignation-no moon-pawing euphoria with this attractive woman being nice to him, and being to play the straight role;


When Jack siezes Ennis's hand, he jerks it away, book and story; he goes forward almost against his will iwth sex with Jack-he wants it real bad, whether he admits to himself or not; It is a struggle to get thru that wall, initially;

When Cassie puts her feet in his lap-he gives her the massage, almost listlessly-he will go forward willingly to have sex with her, but he doesn't really want it; his almost blaze, 'all right' would cut most women to the quick-and I doubt he'd be so casual with Jack.


He has trouble looking Jack soulfully in the eye; he always turns away, short intense looks only-too much emotion there;
With Cassie, he knows he is being flirted with-he has no issues, it is just an annoyance, he can enjoy the attention, and let it make him feel manly, without any committment-he actually maintains eye contact with her;until time goes on, of course-then it beomes a burden-you can see him eyeing her downward from the corner of his eye as they dance the slow dance, after the relationship is establshed-then looks away quickly-she is getting too close;


He introduces Jack to his girls, under somewhat adverse circumstances, and enjoys bringing them together with Jack, you can see it as he looks at Jack looking at them;

With Cassie, he has to say, 'excuse me, darlin' to his daughter at this annoying intrusion into his relationship with AJ-Cassie drags him on the dance floor, where he doesn't even bother to put down his cigarette before dancing with her-that's how important she is in the grand scheme...


the one thing both Jack and Cassie share equally and Cassie gets to say it:

'Ennis girls don't fall in love with FUN!'-she wants Ennis more than she cares about the sex;

Jack:

'Sometimes I miss you so much.etc'-just sex with anyone doesn't do it for him-it is specifically Ennis he wants;

And finally, Ennis has trouble looking even Cassie in the eye. The identifcal factor: Neither Jack nor Cassie ends up with the Ennis they know is in there. Both sense it; but even though he loves Jack, he still holds back to an extent. No dozy embrace memories for Jack after BBM; no responses to Cassies notes-and no engagement ring, of course.

Interestingly, he never says "I'm sorry" to Jack, except after the misunderstanding at the divorce-yet he tells Cassie, 'I'm sorry' even after she has left for someone else...over notes not answered and messages ignored.

It seems so off-balance to me, what Ennis will almost casually do for the sake of straight propriety, but withholds from the love of his life, because he thinks it would make him queer....

I really think the filmmakers are making an even greater point about Jack and Cassie-the female Jack; they are saying, I think, Ennis will indeed wind up alone. He can really give effectively to NO ONE while he continues to be so uncomfortable in his own skin. Finally, at least on film, he realizes what he's been doing, and who he feels what over-and Cassie, bless her heart, gives him the gift of knowledge-no one really falls in love with fun, Ennis; they fall in love with you....

And then he gets the postcard.

Ang Lee works in mysterious ways- ;)

Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Sunshine on April 28, 2007, 08:27:25 AM
Nice synopsis, Canstandit. I too thought some of the same things. Ennis seemed annoyed when Cassie put her feet in his lap, the not putting the cigarette down to dance, the comment to AJ about excuse me darlin' does seem like he feels Cassie is an intrusion. I think you have good points. It seems Ennis can't show the kindness, apologies etc. to Jack because Jack is a man and Ennis thinks Jack should be strong able to tough it out. You are right. Ennis is so quick to apologize to Cassie because she is female and it fits the male/female role. If he is too soft with Jack then their relationship is too similar to male/female relationship. He doesn't necessarily want to be reminded that he is in a gay relationship so the more manly he can keep Jack the better.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: CANSTANDIT on April 28, 2007, 09:42:43 AM
Tx, Sunshine....I think, too, that the burden of 'women' to Ennis is a function of who he is deep down; he really does not want to do the straight dance, with all it implies...I like how he is savvy enough perceptually about people, to pick up on Alma wanting to 'bring him back sooner' with the cigarette request, at the Reunion in the short story; and she sits in his lap while asking him to move to town-he flips her and then they end up staying in the apartment. It is a balancing of power act with Ennis.Ennis will not be manipulated by any woman;

I think the very thing that gives women apparently no choice but to try to lure him in, is the same attractor that allows Jack to understand and accept him-his basic macho posturing; and whereas a woman might try to break it down, get to the person inside, Jack admires it, looks up to it...he doesn't really want to change Ennis. He wants more of him. He stops accepting Ennis as he is, when he realizes part of that requires that he expect no more dozy embraces....

A hint is how Jack says, let be, let be. He has always let be with Ennis-it is the only way to be with him. Just let him move like a glacier and let the status quo appear to never change....
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Sunshine on April 28, 2007, 09:51:52 AM
Canstandit, i have to run take a shower but if you are around today I would love to go to the thread where we can talk more about the dozy embrace and how poor Jack seems to get more and more depressed as the movie goes on. Jack loses all his fun spontaneity. Do you notice that he completely quits playing his harmonica and I think it has nothing to do with Ennis teasing him because I think they both enjoyed that banter. i think Jack stops playing because the music(joy) went out of his life. I will meet you at the appropriate thread and hopefully we will have some more people for a lively chat. By the way, the dozy embrace is one of my favorite scenes!
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: CANSTANDIT on April 28, 2007, 09:52:27 PM
Canstandit, i have to run take a shower but if you are around today I would love to go to the thread where we can talk more about the dozy embrace and how poor Jack seems to get more and more depressed as the movie goes on. Jack loses all his fun spontaneity. Do you notice that he completely quits playing his harmonica and I think it has nothing to do with Ennis teasing him because I think they both enjoyed that banter. i think Jack stops playing because the music(joy) went out of his life. I will meet you at the appropriate thread and hopefully we will have some more people for a lively chat. By the way, the dozy embrace is one of my favorite scenes!
so sorry...I had to leave my home to prospective buyers all day, so would love to chat with you about this next time we are both on thread, ie, the Last Scene.
tx.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Sunshine on April 28, 2007, 09:56:34 PM
Hi, Canstandit. I am here but we can chat another time if this isn't a good time. You are selling your house? You must be busy. Are you moving far or staying local where you are?
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: CANSTANDIT on April 28, 2007, 09:59:11 PM
Hi, Canstandit. I am here but we can chat another time if this isn't a good time. You are selling your house? You must be busy. Are you moving far or staying local where you are?
Hi, Sunny....staying local, just closer to work...this is a fine time for me. Seems quiet in our threads, we may get to actually do some back to back posts...if you want to start off, go ahead...Last Scene thread is where the DE happened. :)
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Sunshine on April 28, 2007, 10:21:12 PM
Hi there, how can I shorten your name? About the dozy embrace, the thing that struck me so deep was the look of absolute unadulterated love on Ennis' face. It was probably the only time he looked like that in the whole movie. I just wanted to bawl seeing Ennis croon, sing and rock Jack. Jack leaned bax\ck and just rested and Enis leaned and just stared at Jack's face so obvious;y in love. It was so sweet.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Sunshine on April 28, 2007, 10:33:57 PM
Sorry fellow Brokeback groupies! I posted the above post on this thread by accident. I know it doesn't belong. Hello, moderator suddenly I feel like I am going to be called to the Principal's office! :D
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: CANSTANDIT on April 28, 2007, 11:20:06 PM
Sorry fellow Brokeback groupies! I posted the above post on this thread by accident. I know it doesn't belong. Hello, moderator suddenly I feel like I am going to be called to the Principal's office! :D
'they call me CSI...' so feel free,too...

I love the DE both on film and in the book; and you'll see the full impact when you read the SS-there is more going on than meets the eye!

we really s/move this to the Last Scene..... :)
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Dal on April 29, 2007, 09:39:51 AM
we really s/move this to the Last Scene..... :)
Feel free....   ;)
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: CANSTANDIT on May 07, 2007, 04:10:07 PM
Ennis and Cassie, Ennis and Cassie....I do believe I've wrung it completely out over this topic! Praise be!!

Ergo, it is now time for an E&C fanfic....
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Ministering angel on May 11, 2007, 10:57:57 AM
Been there, done that, made me really depressed.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: jwm on May 23, 2007, 12:35:13 PM
I feel like Ennis used Cassie from the get go. He saved his love his passion and his himself for times with Jack. He got relieved with Cassie. With Cassie he did everything he couldn't do with Jack. Take her out in public, dance, meet his daughter one on one, face to face. He was able to talk about her at work she seemed to know his boss or the forman Steve.
 He took her to his place with no fears of being seen and just being able to go out is something that he misses with Jack. It seemed that even with Alma he didn't take her a lot of places like the bar and stuff. Alma to me was like his mother probably. A woman's place is looking after her husband and kids. Not for fun or excitement. Cassie also fills the gaps when he is away from Jack and a not so bad past time, sure beats jerking off or sitting missing Jack all alone.
 I know that sounds harsh but that is how I see it. Ennis no more wanted her than he wanted to stay with Alma. He wanted Jack but to him that was out of the question so this would do. He got off with Cassie but always holding back saving it for Jack. He would have carried on with her for as long as he needed to if Jack had not made him prioritize and make him think of exactly what he is doing and why, and how he was going to change it. jwm
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: CANSTANDIT on July 28, 2007, 07:12:48 PM
I feel like Ennis used Cassie from the get go. He saved his love his passion and his himself for times with Jack. He got relieved with Cassie. With Cassie he did everything he couldn't do with Jack. Take her out in public, dance, meet his daughter one on one, face to face. He was able to talk about her at work she seemed to know his boss or the forman Steve.
 He took her to his place with no fears of being seen and just being able to go out is something that he misses with Jack. It seemed that even with Alma he didn't take her a lot of places like the bar and stuff. Alma to me was like his mother probably. A woman's place is looking after her husband and kids. Not for fun or excitement. Cassie also fills the gaps when he is away from Jack and a not so bad past time, sure beats jerking off or sitting missing Jack all alone.
 I know that sounds harsh but that is how I see it. Ennis no more wanted her than he wanted to stay with Alma. He wanted Jack but to him that was out of the question so this would do. He got off with Cassie but always holding back saving it for Jack. He would have carried on with her for as long as he needed to if Jack had not made him prioritize and make him think of exactly what he is doing and why, and how he was going to change it. jwm
jwm, I just saw this...you and AP are  both  tough cookies!  ;) I happen to agree with this, in general....not so sure Ennis wanted to be seen in public with Jack, though. I think he sees Cassie, as you said, for convenience, but also to keep up appearances. And I think he realizes the extent of how wrong he was when she expresses how hurt she was about it..I don't think it dawns on him people really CARE about him..he is the expendable person: first his spirit; then his parents; then his siblings; then Alma. Now Jack's quit threat..Ennis is down, down, down, when he sees Cassie...he starts to get an inkling he is missing some of the good stuff that might offset some of the bad stuff in his life...
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Ministering angel on July 28, 2007, 08:18:40 PM
In the film I think Ennis doesn't treat Cassie badly. She grabs him and he just goes along with it. Since they are together for quite a while we have to assume she gets something out of it. She's made to appear as a woman who shouldn't be alone if she doesn't want to be. And yes, she does fall for him.

But he really isn't into making decisions. If Alma hadn't left he would have stayed married, book and film. If Jack hadn't made a move there would have been nothing between them except friendship. If Cassie hadn't jumped him...

He has his public side which is played according to the rules, and I feel that he believes they are the things he should be doing - being married, dating a woman, etc. and his private side with Jack, and I suspect that he believes that the public side is the real Ennis and the other side is just something weird and inexplicable.

As for sex with Cassie, I don't think he uses her because it's better than his hand. He probably does his best, as he did with Alma, but just doesn't enjoy it much. It's just what you do when you're a straight man with a girlfriend. The great weight of denial and fear which he carries affects everything he does.

In the story, I have wondered whether she actually existed but she probably did, in some form or other. He kept up appearances, both to the world and to himself.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: o2binla on July 29, 2007, 11:38:06 PM
I think he sees Cassie, as you said, for convenience, but also to keep up appearances. And I think he realizes the extent of how wrong he was when she expresses how hurt she was about it..I don't think it dawns on him people really CARE about him..he is the expendable person: first his spirit; then his parents; then his siblings; then Alma. Now Jack's quit threat..Ennis is down, down, down, when he sees Cassie...he starts to get an inkling he is missing some of the good stuff that might offset some of the bad stuff in his life...

Yes I AM following you around the threads tonight CSI, in case you are wondering  :)

In the film, Ennis quite pointedly takes up with Cassie (well, goes along with her come-on) right after the "Jack Nasty" fight with Alma and the "you ever feel like everybody knows" argument with Jack.  I'd say he's using her to cover, both internally and externally, at the same time that he was completely emotionally unavailable.  As for how badly Ennis might have wanted to appear in public with Jack, I don't know: I think his internalized homophobia dictated that they needed to stay out of sight, and that that was proper.  Notice they did a very poor job of fooling the two people, Aguirre and Alma, who actually saw them together (though presumably they stopped at some diners and gas stations and maybe some motels over the years, and managed not to get gay-bashed); E's concerns about them "not being able to be decent" was not unfounded. 

Cassie's the one who first mentions the word "love" and it's much on Ennis' mind after that, but not in reference to her... As for whether he used her or not, I believe she thought, as women often do when they are fooling themselves about men, that she could wear him down into marrying or committing over time. 

But as we in the audience know, the truth about her Marlboro Man was about 180 degrees away from any explanation she'd ever come up with...
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: CANSTANDIT on July 29, 2007, 11:53:03 PM
HI, O2binla,
sorry I missed this dandy post of yours yesterday....
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: CANSTANDIT on July 31, 2007, 06:18:19 AM
I may have mentioned this eons ago..but it occurs to me that we are getting from the filmmakers a very complex POV about Cassie, from Ennis:
I detailed how she seems to be a female version of Jack, ie, the symbolism behind how they meet, etc.

well, I just realized something else, that I'm not sure has been brought up:

Ennis's Ma tells him as a child, 'you're sleepin on your feet like a horse..' I don't have the book handy, not sure if she calls him 'cowboy'...
Jack calls Ennis 'cowboy' at least once...and the DE happens during the 'sleepin' on your feet" sequence;
Later:
Cassie tells Ennis, 'You're stayin on your feet, Cowboy' in the slow dance scene.

thoughts on the connections?

Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: oceansbetween on July 31, 2007, 06:31:14 AM
...Ennis, dredging up a rusty but still useable phrase from the childhood time before his mother died, said, “Time to hit the hay, cowboy. I got a go. Come on, you’re sleepin on your feet like a horse”

Interesting connection, CSI. What about Jack collapsing after his rodeo dance, and Cassie collapsing into a chair, explaining, “My feet hurt”?
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: CANSTANDIT on July 31, 2007, 07:02:37 AM
...Ennis, dredging up a rusty but still useable phrase from the childhood time before his mother died, said, “Time to hit the hay, cowboy. I got a go. Come on, you’re sleepin on your feet like a horse”

Interesting connection, CSI. What about Jack collapsing after his rodeo dance, and Cassie collapsing into a chair, explaining, “My feet hurt”?
oh, good one...that never dawned on me....
It's almost as if, by Cassie saying, 'you're staying on your feet'-she is rejecting being the nurturing 'type', but rather, she is the one expecting to be nurtured-held and rocked, the slow dance-face to face, of course. She is telling Ennis, 'you're gonna stand up like a man'- feeding into his own cliched expectations of himself, and because they go so counter to what he really wants, deep down, as expressed by the nurturing love he gives to Jack in the DE, he is frustrated and unhappy with her-and may not even realize why.
She is not playing 'ma'. and this is the only way he can related to a woman, effectively. It's why he probably feels connected to Alma, only during the childbirth phases of their marriage-he associates it with nurturing love. And it fades, once he gets the real deal with Jack-the giving of that sort of love, once symbolized in the DE-but him doing it vicariously thru sex-not openly, which is what infuriates Jack.

The filmmakers used the character of Cassie well...it gave us lots to think about, in terms of Enni's character, much like Randall triggers lots of queries about Jack.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Ministering angel on July 31, 2007, 06:38:13 PM
"Wants to go to nursing school, somethin, I dunno" says Ennis with underwhelming enthusiasm and interest. Nurses, mothers - ministering angels.

Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: oceansbetween on July 31, 2007, 07:04:45 PM
Something else occurred to me: Both Jack and Cassie are really pretty much “solo” during their dances. Ennis merely watches Jack and (mostly) watches Cassie. They’re both showing off their plumage to him, but Jack makes a fool of himself to make Ennis laugh—that is, it’s for Ennis’s benefit—while Cassie tosses her ample hair for her own benefit—to attract Ennis.

I do like the addition of Cassie to the story. Her character’s vulnerability is similar to Ennis’s—they both fall in love with someone neither can ever truly have.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Ministering angel on July 31, 2007, 07:22:47 PM
Except that she would have Ennis if she could, whereas Ennis could have Jack but doesn't (or more precisely, is not able to allow himself to have).

No-one comes out of this story happy, do they.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: CANSTANDIT on July 31, 2007, 11:45:00 PM
I think Monroe does......
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Heath4Ever on August 19, 2007, 03:05:13 AM
I am new here so it is more than likely that my observations are nothing new to many of you.  But here goes.....

I was wanting to talk about the scene in the diner where Cassie and Ennis, in effect, break up.  Heath Ledger, as an actor, shows wonderful use of his body in this scene.  During his emotional confrontation with Cassie, Ennis shovels apple pie into his mouth in rather a brutish way (men!) but the thing which really struck me was his left arm.  Throughout the entire scene, his left arm hangs absolutely lifeless like he has had a stroke or something.  Check it out - it is pure Brando.  It's as though Ledger's character truly HAS had a stroke, such is the numbness he now feels.

I am just wondering, where does a 25-year-old actor like Heath Ledger get these ideas?  They show an insight into character development that is way beyond his years.  Hopefully this means that, as an actor, the best for him is yet to come.  I certainly hope so.

A special mention too for Linda Cardellini.  The Academy should have given her a mini Oscar for that scene.  Her face makes me cry even now, just thinking of how much her heart is breaking!  Her tears and Ennis's acceptance of the hoplessness of the situation make it one of the saddest scenes in a movie ever.  A precious pearl beyond price.

"Hey, Ennis Del Mar.  Where you been?"  That little nervous waver in her voice gets me every time.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Ministering angel on August 19, 2007, 10:52:23 AM
Thanks for drawing my attention to that! "Like he has had had a stroke" - that's a great observation. Note also that in the opening shot he's eating the pie in a rather slow way. Nothing is moving apart from his mouth, and that's in a rather depressed fashion. He's utterly still, eyes down, looking but not seeing,  hand not moving. Brilliant stuff. A man who is incapacitated by what has transpired. Even after Cassie walks off in tears he's unable to move and react fully.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: CANSTANDIT on August 20, 2007, 07:17:12 AM
he's devastated, isn't he? so much for him thinking things would go on as usual...This has to be the moment where he realizes the possibility of what Jack's outburst really meant....
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Ministering angel on August 20, 2007, 08:35:19 AM
Yes, we have to place it against all the other solo Ennis scenes, where he is able to carry on his life apart from Jack. This time there is no life, just the barest minimum to keep alive.. Question is : why does he feel this way? Is this before or after he sends the postcard to Jack? I know some people think it's the same day as he gets it back but the screenplay doesn't have it that way.  So is he at rock-bottom because he has been thinking through what Jack means to him and how he should react, given what has transpired, or is he at rock-bottom because he has already sent the postcard and is realising what that says about himself? Or something else?
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: CANSTANDIT on August 20, 2007, 12:57:57 PM
I came to think it was because it had been awhile since hearing back from Jack and Ennis feared he had followed thru on his wish.....I think he was hopeful until a certain point, as the 'nov still looked like the earliest' line indicates. I think, also, there is a degree of bereavement over his illusion about himself, as you indicate; the cat is out of the bag-Jack goes to Mexico. What indeed must Ennis say to himself to rationalize still seeing him, now that he cannot ignore he is perpetuating a gay relationship, that it is more than just an unusual situation, that he cannot define?
Of course, this is the film; the SS to me still leads me to think the torquing was holding until he got that postcard.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Ministering angel on August 20, 2007, 09:39:00 PM
Although in the SS he seems to make the effort to get an earlier date, judging by the postcard, or at least he tries to give Jack that impression. So he's not torqued back to a point of being once again unaware of Jack's pain.

I guess in the film we have to go with what we already know. Once the postcard is returned there's no time for reconsideration of much - the blows start falling far too quickly. So when he's in the diner I guess we might be guided into thinking he's reviewing the whole argument, that he's returned and not made any contact with Cassie, and that maybe several weeks have passed while he's been dwelling entirely on thoughts of Jack, to the exclusion of anything else.

I don't think he consciously gave Cassie the brushoff; she just was totally inconsequential to him after the fight. I'd like to think he sent the postcard in response to meeting Cassie, that her "Girls don't fall in love with fun" is the line that spurs him into action. He starts those babysteps back to Jack.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: jwm on August 21, 2007, 05:31:37 PM
I thought when he is sitting there and Cassie comes over, he really hasn't given her much thought, except for the notes she left him. She was not a factor at this point, it was Jack and what Ennis knew he had to do . He was sitting rethinking like Mini says, it is plain and simple confusion and an  unsettleling Revelation that he now knows he has to commit to, one way or the other. \
jwm
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Katiebre on August 22, 2007, 01:02:54 AM
I think, also, there is a degree of bereavement over his illusion about himself, as you indicate; the cat is out of the bag-Jack goes to Mexico. What indeed must Ennis say to himself to rationalize still seeing him, now that he cannot ignore he is perpetuating a gay relationship, that it is more than just an unusual situation, that he cannot define?

Jack goes to Mexico - in the argument it is Ennis himself who brings it up by saying "boys like you". The concept can't be that novel to him?
In saying this he already sets Jack apart as a different type of "boy" than he is himself, and apparently he's been aware of that possibility for a while, only brings it up now for the first time.
Or do you think that's just a test in order to find out whether his suspicions about Jack's sexuality are justified?

(I suppose this would rather belong in the "Last scene" thread.)

I think in the restaurant scene Ennis is still devastated from the argument and all its implications:
- Jack has sex with other men.
- Jack needs sex with Ennis, more than he gets.
- Jack and Ennis have something together.
- Ennis broke down, completely letting go of it all, and was caught by Jack --> Jack is somebody he can turn to and be weak.
- Ennis is nothing and nowhere because he cannot fit a true, meaningful relationship with Jack, as it should be, into his life.

All this has shown him that it is Jack who is important for him, and Cassie is just a means of passing time, no relationship of importance.
Now he's sitting there and trying to figure out what all of that means and entails and what he should do, and there's no place at all for Cassie in all of this. Even just talking to her seems to be too much. Ennis is so caught up in his own thoughts and worries that he hardly responds to her, and even just considering and reacting to what she says is too much for him. All he can think of is a standard and rather meaningless "I'm sorry".
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Ministering angel on August 22, 2007, 01:49:56 AM
Katie, setting aside the "Last Argument" stuff, that is a really good summation of this scene with Cassie. Ennis has been hit with more input than he can process - all that stuff you listed. He doesn't know which way to move so he simply stops dead in his tracks for a while. And yet, that comment Girls don't fall in love with fun, gets through to him. I guess we are meant to think that it spurs him to a better understanding - hey, love! What a weird concept!

(I say "I guess" because who can think clearly by this stage of the film? Meaning? Messages? It's all gut reaction from here on in. For me, anyway, as anyone who's had the misfortune to sit through it with me knows)
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Katiebre on August 22, 2007, 03:49:29 AM

He doesn't know which way to move so he simply stops dead in his tracks for a while.
What an excellent description!

And yet, that comment Girls don't fall in love with fun, gets through to him. I guess we are meant to think that it spurs him to a better understanding - hey, love! What a weird concept!

My first reaction to this was that I always felt that it doesn't get through to him but is something he can't process at all, has no concept for, she might as well be talking Chinese here. He's no clue what she's trying to say.

So I watched the scene again - before she says that, he certainly can't deal with this conversation at all: he has that crying woman sitting before him and has no clue what's going on or how to deal with that. But after she says this, the way he looks and swallows - you could be right.


(Do you think I can cross-post the Last Scene comments to that thread? We're not supposed to cross-post, are we?)
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Ministering angel on August 22, 2007, 05:36:50 AM
You could just copy and paste that little bit. It's not much. Or rephrase it. That way you're not crossposting  :D :D
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: CANSTANDIT on August 23, 2007, 07:09:32 PM
I think, also, there is a degree of bereavement over his illusion about himself, as you indicate; the cat is out of the bag-Jack goes to Mexico. What indeed must Ennis say to himself to rationalize still seeing him, now that he cannot ignore he is perpetuating a gay relationship, that it is more than just an unusual situation, that he cannot define?

Jack goes to Mexico - in the argument it is Ennis himself who brings it up by saying "boys like you". The concept can't be that novel to him?
In saying this he already sets Jack apart as a different type of "boy" than he is himself, and apparently he's been aware of that possibility for a while, only brings it up now for the first time.
Or do you think that's just a test in order to find out whether his suspicions about Jack's sexuality are justified?

(I suppose this would rather belong in the "Last scene" thread.)

I think in the restaurant scene Ennis is still devastated from the argument and all its implications:
- Jack has sex with other men.
- Jack needs sex with Ennis, more than he gets.
- Jack and Ennis have something together.
- Ennis broke down, completely letting go of it all, and was caught by Jack --> Jack is somebody he can turn to and be weak.
- Ennis is nothing and nowhere because he cannot fit a true, meaningful relationship with Jack, as it should be, into his life.

All this has shown him that it is Jack who is important for him, and Cassie is just a means of passing time, no relationship of importance.
Now he's sitting there and trying to figure out what all of that means and entails and what he should do, and there's no place at all for Cassie in all of this. Even just talking to her seems to be too much. Ennis is so caught up in his own thoughts and worries that he hardly responds to her, and even just considering and reacting to what she says is too much for him. All he can think of is a standard and rather meaningless "I'm sorry".

'
It was good to see the rest of the post you put in the other thread back over here-xnt analysis.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Ministering angel on October 21, 2007, 06:59:02 PM
That rather meaningless "I'm sorry" ! Is this the first time in the film (and at the same point in the story) that Ennis actually takes responsibility for his actions? The first time he's actually aware of the effect he has on people? I think it is. So "I'm sorry" is a very significant statement there. It's not just that he starts understanding the message she's delivering about Jack (not consciously, of course) but he sees he's hurt someone and he doesn't use an excuse. And then "Guess I wasn't much fun" - sure, he doesn't know why or how he's done it but he's actually doing a little bit of self-examination for a change.

I guess Sid pointed all this out in those wonderful scene breakdowns he did a thousand years or so ago. Still, sometimes things take ages to sink into my brain.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: CANSTANDIT on October 21, 2007, 09:15:05 PM
doesn't he say, 'jeez, Jack I'm real  sorry, you know I am' in the divorce scene?
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Ministering angel on October 21, 2007, 09:17:22 PM
Damn! There goes a great theory  ;D ;D
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: CANSTANDIT on October 21, 2007, 09:18:38 PM
I hate it when that happens....but by the same token, it is the first time he says it to a woman...that is interesting. He never apologizes to Alma, does he?
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Marge_Innavera on October 22, 2007, 08:22:04 AM
I hate it when that happens....but by the same token, it is the first time he says it to a woman...that is interesting. He never apologizes to Alma, does he?

I'm not sure it's contradictory. When he says 'I'm sorry' to Jack in the truck scene, he's caught up in his own paranoia and seeing Jack's reaction at the same time. The apology to Cassie, followed by "guess I wasn't much fun," seems to express regret that's less conflicted.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: CANSTANDIT on October 22, 2007, 12:10:09 PM
I hate it when that happens....but by the same token, it is the first time he says it to a woman...that is interesting. He never apologizes to Alma, does he?

I'm not sure it's contradictory. When he says 'I'm sorry' to Jack in the truck scene, he's caught up in his own paranoia and seeing Jack's reaction at the same time. The apology to Cassie, followed by "guess I wasn't much fun," seems to express regret that's less conflicted.
I don't see his sorry to Jack as conflicted, really; I do agree he is paranoid-but not particularly over his feelings for Jack, if you are talking about the nature of the apology. He is mostly worried about being seen; but the acting to me, shows the enormity of how much Jack's reaction is hurting Ennis.....

As to my point, Cassie is the second relationship he's had with a woman, and the first one, with much less risk than the one with Alma, where he bothers to say, 'I was at fault.' He never admits to that-because in his head, just as Lureen didn't stop Jack from dying on the dirt road, so Alma in some way must've failed. He dismisses her after the outing in the kitchen by saying his girls will have  enough sense later to move out-he is one with them at that moment, the 3rd child, who is the first to have 'moved out'. She is Mom in that perspective.

I think it is the only way he can relate to women, which is why Cassie, the classic self-effacing female, is so hard for him. She will not play a role.
That was my point, and he responds to that, ultimately. Hence, first time for a women; but not the first apology, per se.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Ministering angel on October 22, 2007, 06:13:34 PM
"He had no serious hard feelings, just a vague sense of being short-changed ...". I love that description. He figured he'd put in more than he got out of it, and therefore the person responsible for that state of affairs must be Alma.

As has been said often enough, Cassie is set up as a female Jack. When she confronts him she's doing a sort of reprise of the previous scene, the argument. He put so little apparent effort into the relationship that I guess he never understood that people might actually like to be with him.  And suddenly here's this woman complaining that he's ignoring her. I love the follow-up to the apology - "prob'ly wasn't much fun anyway". It always strikes me as a bit of an accidental putdown, implying that Cassie would settle for third-rate company.  Ennis really was caught in his own loop, never being able to see beyond his own scared, paranoid self.

The apology to Jack is interesting - he really does see he's hurt Jack but does he actually get the full import of what Jack is saying? If someone proposes to you, you don't say "Sorry, I can't spend my life with you because I've got the girls this weekend." It's a perfect setup for Jack's HAF complaint.  Ennis just doesn't see how he affects everyone.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: CANSTANDIT on October 22, 2007, 09:57:13 PM
No I don't think he does see...He only starts getting a clue that he'd better wake up a bit, with her comment about girls not falling in love with fun; It almost stuns him, like, 'oh, its not all about sex?' So he can extrapolate then, that maybe there's been more to it all along with Jack-I don't think he intellectualizes it, though; I think he just gets a vague feeling he might've short-changed somebody.. ;) ;)

I see that as Cassie's real purpose, besides just proving to anyone harboring straight delusions about Ennis; that we need someone to bump him up against after the fight with Jack-to show subtle character changes. which for Ennis, are like monuments towering about.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: CANSTANDIT on November 26, 2007, 04:02:33 PM
We began talking about Ennis defining what it is about him people might know, once the Reunion sets up the relationship, going forward-way out of the way, once in a while, etc.

His 'thing' with Jack ultimately leads to Alma's outing of him at Txgiving, and his subsequent on-film paranoia, which we might interpret from his statement of involvement with a waitress:  He doesn't want to be 'one of those guys you see around sometimes', you know, the kind by themselves in trailers, for years on end....who are not yet aged, and appear to have a life still in front of them.

The reason for bringing that over here, is:
The scenes with Cassie show also, a progression, from excitement, and reassurance of his masculinity-the footrub is like Jack's handgrab in FNIT, IMO; to annoyance over the burden of not being able to and certainly not wanting to keep up with her needs and desires; to out and out disregard, with him ignoring her attempts to communicate, and finally, to an almost apathetic afterthought once he has ruined things for good with her.

But, that last part is over-shadowed by the devastating fight with Jack, and he has yet to find out where that all leads...so.....

Given all that, I reiterate my idea that Cassie's main purpose is not just to show us Ennis simply can't be successful with a woman, no matter how animated and attractive and willing; but also, that he has changed since the fight-he almost is using Cassie, I think, as a sounding board for Jack. 'Ennis, girls don't fall in love with fun' echoes Jack's angry, 'I can't survive on a couple of HAF's once or twice a year.' Cassie quits him, for good; whether Jack does is open for debate. But I see her as a steady mirror image of Jack-Ennis having the same problems with both sides of the orientation fence, because he is unable to give 100 percent to either-and we know by nature, he was gay. So this clearly is about his self-perception, not about what his natural inclinations are. It virtually proves he is living a delusion...

A couple of things  that always strikes me:

1) How he lets himself be pulled along by her, just like he let Jack lead him to the bar for example;
2)How he really studies her as she dances-watch closely-as if looking for something to attract him-just a feeling I have;

3)How he rather fearlessly leans towards her, inviting social intimacy, at the bar table; then, when reality hits-she puts her feet in his lap-he literally pulls back. The reality of this woman coming on to him, forcing him to live up to his momentary illusion that he is straight-clearly, his reaction to the feet is odd; he gives her your basic foot massage, as if he were a friend-not an attracted potential lover, who would be pulling her into his truck to go to his trailer, pronto. Although, he seems to recognize she is flirting.... :-\


I think it is interesting how Ang L. leaves it off there; allowing us to make the connection between the feet in lap and the hand on cock from the FNIT-it is telling us this will lead to sex, but don't bother wondering, its not that interesting.....

I used to think the Cassie scenes were heavy-handed; now I think they tell us alot about Ennis.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Rosewood on November 26, 2007, 05:22:39 PM
I think I like the connection you've made between the FNIT and the Cassie foot-in-lap thing.
Very perceptive. Why didn't I think of it?  ;D

Though I continue to say that Cassie is of NO importance in the story except as to how Ennis reacts to HER.
But maybe in a way, we're saying the same thing.

In the bar scene I see no great attraction on Ennis's behalf either. He, in fact, looks nonplussed. But the shrewd
part of him understands that an effort must be made. Maybe this bar is where half the town hangs out - who knows?
Being seen there with a woman might establish his hetero bona-fides. It is ALL about impressions.
Ennis may not understand much, but he sure as hell understands that.

I had not thought that she would remind him of Jack.
Maybe.
Maybe not.
She's as bold as Jack, at least in the bar.
So, yeah, maybe.

CSI, you asked earlier how Ennis knew, in the film, that Alma had figured it out.
And you've answered your own question.
Ennis knew because Alma told him at Thanksgiving that she knew.
Of course, in the film, Ennis does NOT know that Alma saw them.
(I still wonder WHY she doesn't tell him. Does she want to spare him embarassment? Herself?
Could she possibly be UNSURE of what she ACTUALLY saw?)

In fact, Ennis DOES NOT know either, that Aguirre saw them.
Unless we ASSUME that he's been told by Jack off screen.
But how would we know  about it anyway, if we hadn't read the story.....!?
So, it has to be discounted.
Ennis did not know.

I wonder sometimes, if Cassie EVER figured it out.

If I'm going to pay any attention to the 'girls don't fall in love with fun' line AT ALL, and granted it
is NOT one of my favorite lines in the film, then I think what Ennis hears is : love is serious business.
It is not all about the fun. I could care less about the fun.
Remember how he had told Jack to 'lighten up'?
That must have rung a bell.
Remember the comment about Don Wroe's cabin and the 'fun' they had that year?
That must have made Ennis wince.
IT WAS NOT THE FUN THEY HAD THAT YEAR THAT JACK WANTED.
Perhaps Cassie's comment spells that out for him.
It is LOVE that he and Jack were arguing about.
Jack COULDN'T lighten up. He was too damned unhappy.

It is the first time, probably, that he has heard the expression: falling in love as it applied to ANYTHING
related to him, no matter how oblique. He had been sitting there at the table, sunk in misery, and suddenly
the word 'love' enters the picture. It would be odd indeed if he didn't relate it to Jack and the argument.

Though again, I say that the scene in the bus station is a scene between two blind people whose own miseries
don't allow room for much else.



Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: CANSTANDIT on November 26, 2007, 06:43:54 PM
Great post, Rose.

I think I am not the only one, but just one of the earlier posters to make the FNIT/Footrub connection-its just I think, something to give the viewer a kind of recognition-and as I think of it, it allows us to see Ennis at play, once he is already in the lovelock with Jack; we get to see how this has impacted him, for anyone else. So yes, I'd say I agree, as I think we both always have on this, that Cassie is there to tell us about Ennis. I don't think her back story exists for any other reason-like Randall, she is a plot device to either show us  that they can be pulled apart; or can't be pulled apart. I say it is the latter, but the moviemakers may think the former. Such young, moderns fools.  ;) ;)

And my question about Alma still sort of stands: what is it Ennis is really worried about? I think deep down that he is Q/ but on the surface, that someone will realize he has this too-close thing with Jack-and of course, the m/m sex could be seen as a little problem  :o :o :o
I know this is where some of us part company, ie, how can he do it, even semi-regularly, and not wonder? Which is of course why he can't do it more regularly=cuz then HE'D wonder. :o

So Cassie-the waitress in the SS-allows him the comfort of doing his weekends, or his fishing trips and knowing he is coming back to a woman's bed, and thus he is reinforced as a M-A-N. So, one wonders what really goes thru his mind-about Jack?

Any thougths on that? Does he REALLY think Jack is just like him? I think he avoids thinking about it.....Him mentioning it to Jack, ie, wondering about what people see-is very out of character at that time; even if it replaces the reunion question-'what do other people do? I been looking at people on the street...', I could never see him ask that once Jack introduces the C&C fear, you know?

OMT-GREAT points about 'fun'-I had forgotten about the fun of the cabin and lighten up on me. I believe that is the first time I've heard it connected to 'girls don't fall in love with fun.' I disagree a bit with you hear, though-I think the line is very critical-its an a=ha for Ennis, and its as if he suddenly realizes something about Jack-something the SS does not do for us, until 'deceased', I don't think.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Ministering angel on November 27, 2007, 03:03:25 AM
Slightly off-topic, but the querying Jack about whether people look at him like they know has always struck me about their activities not theor orientation. So they know Ennis has sex with Jack, rather than do they know he is queer.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Desecra on November 27, 2007, 05:20:11 AM
I agree.  They've already established that they're not queer.   Ennis isn't going to start talking about them as if they are without some sort of explanation of why the terms are now different.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Ministering angel on November 27, 2007, 05:38:42 AM
If the comment by Ennis is about orientation, then his taking up with Cassie becomes a rather cold-hearted business of finding himself a "beard", whereas if he is worried about people knowing somehow that he has sex with a man, then his relationship is more along the lines of proving to himself and others that he is straight.  I never got the feeling in the film that he was using Cassie, rather that he was doing what was expected of him, much as he had with Alma. If he had simply been using her, I doubt he would have been quite so puzzled by her reaction in the diner.

However, since the thing with Cassie pointedly comes after the Thanksgiving scene and the riverbank talk with Jack, there is that element of Ennis doing something he'd prefer not to. I have alays wondered just how much SS Ennis associated with women.  I suspect the waitress was real enough - she had some problems he didn't want sounds like a description of a woman he had no great interest in. Was she just one of a string of very casual acquaintances, I wonder.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: CANSTANDIT on November 27, 2007, 11:27:52 AM
If the comment by Ennis is about orientation, then his taking up with Cassie becomes a rather cold-hearted business of finding himself a "beard", whereas if he is worried about people knowing somehow that he has sex with a man, then his relationship is more along the lines of proving to himself and others that he is straight.  I never got the feeling in the film that he was using Cassie, rather that he was doing what was expected of him, much as he had with Alma. If he had simply been using her, I doubt he would have been quite so puzzled by her reaction in the diner.

However, since the thing with Cassie pointedly comes after the Thanksgiving scene and the riverbank talk with Jack, there is that element of Ennis doing something he'd prefer not to. I have alays wondered just how much SS Ennis associated with women.  I suspect the waitress was real enough - she had some problems he didn't want sounds like a description of a woman he had no great interest in. Was she just one of a string of very casual acquaintances, I wonder.

I am getting a bit of a funny feeling about the whole idea of a waitress in his life suddenly, at age 40, after all those years alone-is he succumbing? Is is out looking for a beard/wife? It is not a pretty thought-but is he looking down the road, ie, 'no longer young men', etc. and realizing he really is going nowhere? Is his hphbobia 'solidifying' just as Jack's DE craving?  The moviemakers may be seeing it this way, even though the book seems to put Ennis more into the powerful delusion of the imagined power, ie, he could go on forever like this with Jack...do you see what I'm saying?? Hence the enormity of the shocking shattering at LF....Cassie is just one of the cards in the house of cards, falling....

And yes, I agree, he sees his thing with Jack as the problem, not Q-but yet, I just wonder, if he knows underneath about Jack-and maybe way underneath about himself-then how does he manage it, intellectually? He'd almost have to never question it.....
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Rosewood on November 27, 2007, 11:52:07 AM

....And my question about Alma still sort of stands: what is it Ennis is really worried about? I think deep down that he is Q/ but on the surface, that someone will realize he has this too-close thing with Jack-and of course, the m/m sex could be seen as a little problem  :o :o :o
I know this is where some of us part company, ie, how can he do it, even semi-regularly, and not wonder? Which is of course why he can't do it more regularly=cuz then HE'D wonder. :o

So Cassie-the waitress in the SS-allows him the comfort of doing his weekends, or his fishing trips and knowing he is coming back to a woman's bed, and thus he is reinforced as a M-A-N. So, one wonders what really goes thru his mind-about Jack?

Any thougths on that? Does he REALLY think Jack is just like him? I think he avoids thinking about it.....Him mentioning it to Jack, ie, wondering about what people see-is very out of character at that time; even if it replaces the reunion question-'what do other people do? I been looking at people on the street...', I could never see him ask that once Jack introduces the C&C fear, you know?

OMT-GREAT points about 'fun'-I had forgotten about the fun of the cabin and lighten up on me. I believe that is the first time I've heard it connected to 'girls don't fall in love with fun.' I disagree a bit with you hear, though-I think the line is very critical-its an a=ha for Ennis, and its as if he suddenly realizes something about Jack-something the SS does not do for us, until 'deceased', I don't think.

I thought you meant IF Ennis knew that Alma knew about his 'relationship' with Jack.
And wouldn't it be natural for him to 'worry' about it after that Thanksgiving dinner?
(The 'it' in this case being fairly specific.)
Well, surely, she didn't know actual details. But she KNEW. What other kind of 'knowing' do you mean?
I'm a little confused by your comments on that topic. Please elucidate.  :)

I'll tell you something about Ennis thinking that Jack is just like him. (In attitude, in perception, in sexuality, in everything...except
perhaps proficiency at sheepherding and shooting.) I hadn't really thought about it much before, until you got me thinking about it,
but, yeah, it would surprise me if Ennis didn't think that he and Jack were similar in outlook. Possibly that is part of the attraction
on some level even though we've said all along that here's the perfect case of opposites attracting. Yeah, we SEE them as
opposites. But MAYBE Ennis doesn't see them as such.

Maybe that too is at the heart of the quick turnaround. The reason why Ennis falls so deeply and completely under Jack's spell.
(For that is what happens, my friends. That is surely what happens.)
Maybe Ennis sees the other half of himself in Jack. A sort of emotional mirror image. Thought we know, of course, as observers,
that nothing could be further from the truth.
But we're not Ennis lost at sea and looking for an anchor, a port, a reference.
A loving same/sex hand.
We're not a boy mired in confusion and loneliness to whom the engagement to Alma down in the valley,
hasn't brought the peace and contentment he thought it would. We're not the boy whose ardor for Alma is, perhaps,
not as intense as he'd thought it should and would be.

We're going a bit o/t here again so I'll loop around back to Ennis and Cassie.

I'm adamant about the 'fun' line, CSI. When Cassie says 'girls don't fall in love with fun' (and of course they do,
but that's another story...) it is the only thing she says in the scene that resonates in ANY way with Ennis.
(I've thought this since the first time I saw the film.)
Why? Because he has been brooding in misery about Jack, and here the word, 'fun' reminds him how ineffectually
he'd tried to change Jack's mood by reminding him of the FUN they'd had at the cabin of Doe Wroe.
(I also think, as an aside, that the 'fun' they had that year must have meant something special to Ennis or else
he might not have brought it up at all. I also think that the 'fun' he's talking about was not FUN at all, but
the serious business of love 'disguised' as fun in memory so he could deal with it. Know what I mean?
Or too circular?

He also must remember how the cabin comment had gone over like a lead balloon. It hadn't shaken Jack's
mood at all. In fact, it had made it WORSE. This must have confused Ennis at the time,
since, probably in the past, he'd been able to detour Jack's moods by making similar comments.

Cassie, in her cluelessness, has shown a light on something that had kept Ennis in the dark.


Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: CANSTANDIT on November 27, 2007, 12:32:09 PM
I agree Cassie shines  a light, moves Ennis's insight up a notch...

My question re Ennis and Alma was, what does he think she is saying, with 'Jack nasty'? Is he seeing it as an out and out accusations of Q-or does he only get so far as to think she knows about his special, Jack-only thing-which is also an oddity, because he sleeps with-him? Did that make more sense? here is where I'm going:

The second scenario follows well, in terms of Ennis saying, 'you don't know nothin about it', ie, 'I'm not Q, but Jack is the most wonderful thing I have, and you can't touch it.' Do you see how I'm differentiating? These are my questions...in terms of the film AND the SS, I'm leaning in favor of Ennis still not having his homosexuality surface, but rather, his private bubble of Jack and him, getting burst, and him maybe being enraged at any Q accusation, on Alma's part, when he sees this not as q, but as a OIALT thing....follow me?


And I really do like the 'fun' stuff-I think it follows well, just miffed I didn't catch on to it m'self.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: fofol on November 27, 2007, 01:28:16 PM
Yes, we have to place it against all the other solo Ennis scenes, where he is able to carry on his life apart from Jack. This time there is no life, just the barest minimum to keep alive.. Question is : why does he feel this way? Is this before or after he sends the postcard to Jack? I know some people think it's the same day as he gets it back but the screenplay doesn't have it that way.  So is he at rock-bottom because he has been thinking through what Jack means to him and how he should react, given what has transpired, or is he at rock-bottom because he has already sent the postcard and is realising what that says about himself? Or something else?

  Rock bottom because he now knows the pain of love lost, but still doesn't know it's love.  His posture and expression change after Cassie rattles his cage and wakes him up out of his stupor - he looks like he's finally realizing he was a sope to have quit Jack.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: CANSTANDIT on November 27, 2007, 02:01:39 PM
Theory also has it, that he thinks Jack quit, because he has not heard from him. Mind you, that's not my opinion... ;D ;D
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Rosewood on November 27, 2007, 02:05:35 PM
I agree Cassie shines  a light, moves Ennis's insight up a notch...

My question re Ennis and Alma was, what does he think she is saying, with 'Jack nasty'? Is he seeing it as an out and out accusations of Q-or does he only get so far as to think she knows about his special, Jack-only thing-which is also an oddity, because he sleeps with-him? Did that make more sense? here is where I'm going:

The second scenario follows well, in terms of Ennis saying, 'you don't know nothin about it', ie, 'I'm not Q, but Jack is the most wonderful thing I have, and you can't touch it.' Do you see how I'm differentiating? These are my questions...in terms of the film AND the SS, I'm leaning in favor of Ennis still not having his homosexuality surface, but rather, his private bubble of Jack and him, getting burst, and him maybe being enraged at any Q accusation, on Alma's part, when he sees this not as q, but as a OIALT thing....follow me?


And I really do like the 'fun' stuff-I think it follows well, just miffed I didn't catch on to it m'self.

Well, you gotta' leave some of the pickings for me, m'dear. ;D

I've always felt that Alma's '...Jack Nasty...' was a comment on what she IMAGINED he [Ennis] and Jack
were up to in the mountains (It HAD to be something nasty and vile because it wasn't, in her eyes,
anything normal and fine and right) and ALSO it implies that it is Jack's fault for leading Ennis away from
the 'straight and narrow'.

Jack must be the nasty one, the bad influence. Why?
Because nothing bad happened until Jack came on the scene that fateful day four years into her marriage.

Also we must assume that Alma isn't one to dwell on the actuality of what Jack and Ennis must be
doing. It is probably some vague 'nasty' scenario partially pictured in her imagination. 'Jack Nasty' covers
all bases AND wounds Ennis. Wounding Ennis is something that Alma, in that scene, is building up to.

When Ennis reacts so violently, she must realize she's hit her mark.
But it frightens her as well, obviously.
Ennis, I've always felt, is truly outraged in that scene.
He is outraged because his secret life with Jack is no secret to Alma. He's outraged over the implied insult
to Jack. (AND to Ennis as well, no doubt.) He's outraged because he'd thought himself a better actor.
He's outraged because what he and Jack do in the mountains is separate and apart from the 'reality'
of Ennis Del Mar, ranch hand, father and ex-husband of Alma. He is outraged because what he and
Jack have can't be explained and here is Alma demanding some sort of explanation.
He's outraged because he thinks Alma has NO RIGHT to demand anything anymore.
(If she ever did.)
And finally, he's outraged because Alma's outburst hurts Ennis's sense of who he is and who
he and Jack are - it intrudes on his most private self.

Cassie, on the other hand, has no real effect on Ennis's life because, as I've said before, she's
nobody important. If she shines a light for Ennis it is done entirely by accident.
It's funny because I always think of Cassie as pathetic.
And yet I NEVER think that of Alma.
Why?
Probably because I see backbone in Alma.
Probably because Alma eventually figures out that a man who knows condiments
from catsup would make her the better husband.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: CANSTANDIT on November 27, 2007, 02:45:57 PM
Funny, I don't see Cassie as that pathetic- moreneedy, naive, demanding, also. But not whimpy or anything-she goes after what she wants. And I think she really had feelings for him, and in a way, may well simply be on the ignorant side of naive, ie, her gay-dar is not evolved enough to know she's picking from the wrong patch; and let's face it, Ennis's wrist ain't exactly limp.Although, I don't think Cassie is completely ignorant-but she is a bit of a caretaker-'wants to go to nursin' school'.
But she has the cajones to go with another guy, despite her feelings, which now include a good dose of healthy anger-a good way to break the bonds. She is clearly not pining over him, even though she is deeply hurt.
I see it as not pathetic, so much as she just had some neurotic need to try to attract a remote kind of male, the desire to win someone over, and that is as common as the day is too short. I see it in alot of us women folk.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Ministering angel on November 27, 2007, 03:03:23 PM
~snip~
And yes, I agree, he sees his thing with Jack as the problem, not Q-but yet, I just wonder, if he knows underneath about Jack-and maybe way underneath about himself-then how does he manage it, intellectually? He'd almost have to never question it.....

This may sound dumb but I think sometimes we come at these points from the wrong direction. I feel that Ennis doesn't ever - and would never - see himself as we see him, or even close. He is moved to do things by circumstance and by vague feelings or perceived threats to his equilibrium. It's a bit like prodding a worm and watching it squirm. I really don't see much introspection at all until the end. He may have the feeling that Something Is Not Quite Right - I'm sure he does - but that doesn't mean he would, if forced, weigh up the choices as between being straight and being gay. Just as his thing with Jack is unique, so is he himself, as far as he would be concerned.

So taking up with a waitress at 39, or flirting harmlessly over the bar now and them is just what he does, in his eyes. So women aren't sexually exciting for him - I'm sure he has an explanation, not the right girl, better things to do, they've got problems he doesn't want, etc. Is this making any sense?
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: CANSTANDIT on November 27, 2007, 06:04:21 PM
Yes, if course...I think we are in sync insofar as does he even question? I mean, the guy's mind is incredibly gymnastic, IMO. It does what he needs it to do...There is never, 'I can't DO this anymore! ' Because he has yet to define 'it'. ya know? I see characters and people like this, as a bug effin waste, not so far as this topic is concerned-but more along the lines of Ennis never finishing school. He had the mind to do it, to learn and absorb, and draw conclusions. He would've done much better for himself, IMO-he had to fall out of society, to get anywhere near Jack; I think he would've had his own ranch some day, had he managed to graduate and have that self-esteem. He had a degree of self-education at any rate, that's clear.
I don't know why I brought that up-but its clear others sense that intelligence in him....even Aguirre leaves him with the logistics of the camp, right off the bat, even though he'd rather be with the animals, ironically.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: jwm on November 28, 2007, 11:28:09 AM
First good to see you folfo. missed you.

I think that Cassie was a diversion, one that Ennis knew he could see when he wanted to, not answer to, not have to make excuses too. He sensed he had a good thing going with her. He still had his privacy, he had eye candy hanging off his arm. He had a front for his girls. The biggest bonus was he still had Jack.
With Cassie he didn't have to work at trying to make her happy, he didn't have to pretend, he had a companion when he went out in public. I imagine them sitting at his place, not a whole lot there, and him ignoring her as if she is not there, but Cassie she just thinks he is quiet, and mysterious, when in reality he is removed, tolerating, and just plain boring.

Ennis doesn't know how to have fun with a girl, a man either for that matter, but he is much more comfortable with Jack. Cassie is blind to what Ennis does when he is away, because I think she feels the same way as Jack does, don't question, don't rock the boat or this man will walk. None of his lovers, especially Jack and Cassie really ever felt secure, not really. They never knew for sure what was going on inside this mans head. It would be so frustrating, having to drag any kind of intimacy, or even a kind word.
I felt for Cassie because she was ignorant to what was going on in Ennis's life, his heart, his mind. She even had to get a little insight about him from his young daughter. She had to have felt like she was a complete idiot when she heard what Junior said. She thought they were doing pretty good considering the lack of communication and intimacy.
 
When he came out with I was probably no fun anyway, I thought what a foolish and off the cuff statement. He had just walked out her life, no notice, no consideration to her feelings, didn't even have the decency to tell her or let her know why. There was just nothing. He ignored her notes, he ignored the fact that she even went to his place of work. Which I could imagine made him pretty pissed off at her.

He had just decided not to bother with her anymore, he decided that it was over, no explanations nothing. He has a long history of making decisions for the people in his life, ones that suit him, and again he feels he has no need to give them any  . It is just because he says that is the way it is to be.

When she said Girls don't fall in love with fun, I thought oh Cassie you poor thing. She had built up their relationship in her own mind, just as Jack had done. She didn't seem to care whether they had fun, she just wanted and needed to be with him, why I still don't understand. I doubt if she was needy, if she had any problems finding men. She was really pretty, out going, and she had a dream of her own, being a nurse. So she was not with him because he was the best she could get, or she considered herself lucky just to have a man.
This is just MHOP.
jwm
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Rosewood on November 28, 2007, 12:10:33 PM
Yes, if course...I think we are in sync insofar as does he even question? I mean, the guy's mind is incredibly gymnastic, IMO. It does what he needs it to do...There is never, 'I can't DO this anymore! ' Because he has yet to define 'it'. ya know? I see characters and people like this, as a bug effin waste, not so far as this topic is concerned-but more along the lines of Ennis never finishing school. He had the mind to do it, to learn and absorb, and draw conclusions. He would've done much better for himself, IMO-he had to fall out of society, to get anywhere near Jack; I think he would've had his own ranch some day, had he managed to graduate and have that self-esteem. He had a degree of self-education at any rate, that's clear.
I don't know why I brought that up-but its clear others sense that intelligence in him....even Aguirre leaves him with the logistics of the camp, right off the bat, even though he'd rather be with the animals, ironically.

It is the Alpha thing again.
Generally, I think that 'Alphas' radiate leadership, it is apparent even in a boy with dubious intellect and a
stunted education. Aguirre is canny enough to size people up on immediate first impression.
Notice that in the film Aguirre NEVER faces down Ennis.
It is always Jack. (Obviously Aguirre senses that Jack will never be a 'problem'. Bullies often have this
ability. Perhaps that's why it is usually easy to catch them by surprise.)
I've always wondered what would have happened in an angry face-off between Aguirre and Ennis.
Though he does scoot them off with a 'look' in the opening trailer interview...
Still, I wonder....

Seriously O/T here!!

Wendy, yes, I agree completely that Cassie was a diversion.
Nothing but.
I've always thought so.
She was the sort to do better (It is a truth universally acknowledged that
pretty girls will always 'do better' than less pretty ones. Though that is not
always the case.), but I get the impression (in the way her role is interpreted in the film),
that's she's one of those women who will always pick the wrong man. There
are women like that. They NEVER fall in love with the RIGHT man for them.
Or is it that the RIGHT man for them is NEVER whom they would pick for themselves?
There are women who always gravitate towards men with some kind of 'edge' -
men with some 'kink' that they feel they can 'fix'.
And Ennis could certainly be said to radiate edginess as well as 'Alpha-ness'.

Cassie is a 'reacher'. She will always reach beyond what's 'good' for her.
(Reaching beyond their pay-grade is a lifelong affliction for some. Of course this doesn't
apply to those blessed with charm and/or fortune.)
That's how she struck me from the first.

She wasn't anything special in Ennis's life and didn't know enough to sense that.
Or if she did, it didn't seem to matter. If she DID indeed aspire to nurse-hood, then
she might have that gene that generates earth-motherly-ness. In which case,
she is also a 'fixer' and 'comforter'. (This is a generality, of course. But what the heck.)

I don't think she's the type to settle, though the cowboy with her in the 'bus station'
scene certainly seems harmless enough. He stays in the background during her 'confrontation'
with Ennis, happy enough to avoid any potential trouble. Notice too that she thinks nothing
of leaving him stranded  to confront Ennis. She assumes [the cowboy] will just wait patiently.
Obviously she could care less about this guy. Maybe she's just picked him up in the bus station...

The essential element missing in Cassie: charm.
Jack's immense charm is one of the elements that initially wins over the reluctant Ennis.
Cassie didn't even have that. (More importantly she didn't have the male physique
that Ennis needed though he would fight you to the death in an effort to deny it.)

As restless as Jack, Cassie struck me as the type that will always be unhappy in her choices.
Perhaps that's why I called her pathetic.
She seems a very needy sort and maybe I was being deliberately cruel.
These types of women always turn me completely off.
The older I get, the less patience I have.
But maybe that's just me being grumpy. ;)
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: CANSTANDIT on November 28, 2007, 01:39:59 PM
Wendy, you are very persuasive..sometimes I start getting po'd at Ennis when I read your posts... :D ;)

But then, I always remember: We all deserve love; it is a gift of being human, and these two, let's say it, losers, J & E, the kind of guys other people in mainstream circles roll their eyes over, found each other and fell in love, against innumerable odds, really-AP says it right off the bat; They came from poor ranches on opposite corners of the state.
Same people, worlds apart.
They happened to find each other, luckily, going across gender and cultural barriers of the strongest fiber, and in a society that would drag them by their _____s, as quckly as look at them, they managed to meet in secret over 20 years, giving up real hope of happiness with anyone else. And Ennis, despite all his flaws, never loved Jack any less, and finally, it was his own feelings, he himself, that forced him to see what he was afraid to see up until a certain point-it is no accident that he finds the shirts while he is alone, no one to council him, no one to guide him (arguably, the presence of the mom-but that is symbolic, more than anything...). He figures things out, in slow torture, over the years. But he never leaves Jack out of any equation of his life that matters. Nothing important to Ennis does not have the aura of Jack-even his first-born. He 'shared' her with Jack by allowing his love for her to open him up to Jack.

So please try to see him in his own realm, on his own terms, doing the best he could with very little. I said this a long time ago, and I think it sill stands: He was a man to whom little was given, and from whom, alot was expected.

{trips without grace off of soapbox...}
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Ministering angel on November 28, 2007, 06:55:38 PM
The essential element missing in Cassie: charm.
Jack's immense charm is one of the elements that initially wins over the reluctant Ennis.
Cassie didn't even have that. (More importantly she didn't have the male physique
that Ennis needed though he would fight you to the death in an effort to deny it.)



I think this is another case of the filmmakers showing us what the boys see. I think Cassie is charming enough but she doesn't charm Ennis. Jack charms Ennis because Jack is right for Ennis and so he succumbs to those charms. It's all in the eye of the beholder.

Jack also tunes in to the inner Ennis, the boy beneath all the years of indoctrination. They are alike, and thus Jack will always have the key to that inner Ennis. Cassie has no direct connection with Ennis at all. She doesn't have the ways to get to him because she doesn't have the necessary attributes. But it's not anything innately wrong with her. She's "good enough", as Junior put it so well. She just isn't right for Ennis.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: jwm on November 29, 2007, 10:52:42 AM
I know you and most everyone here have a lot of sympathy for Ennis. To me he created most of his misery, his unhappy existence by himself. He was his own worst enemy. I have always felt that Ennis never gave the best he could, or did the best he could. I know that is not what I should feel but I do. All these great posts always make me shake my head in the very idea that Ennis had no choice. He did have a choice, he had a choice right from the beginning. He pretty well initiated this whole affair, and he is the one that single handedly destroyed them. He had a hard upbringing, but he had his family, his siblings to learn from and to hang with. Jack had no one. He had his parents grant you but what did they ever do for him really. Neither of them seemed to have did their job. His mother was really no help, all she taught him was that women did what they were told, good or bad, she didn't even teach him about religion. Who Jack turned out to be was by himself, his inner being and his natural good nature. No one taught him that.

So in MHOP Ennis wasted so much time warring about what was behind him, what was around every corner, and what other people thought, and no where enough time in the present. He had a challenge sure enough, but everyone does, and he chose not to face it. He took what was right in front of him and twisted it and scrambled it, until it made no sense at all.

I also think that Jack was terrified too, he had found what he wanted and needed, he was prepared to throw everything he has away, for just one word from Ennis. He molded and shaped his world around Ennis, he was barely functioning, and yet he gave everything he had to keep this alive.

Oh yea what did they talk about if it was news to Jack that Ennis was giving the blocks to some waitress, considering Ennis had been with her for along time. Why was that night the first time they spoke of her?
OK I will stop now before I get in big heckers from everyone but I can not in all honesty feel the same that most of you do about Ennis. He to me destroyed everything, and everyone all by himself. Like I said we all have choices, to live life to the fullest and not let anyone or anything dictate it  or let it slip away on things you can't change, but if you truly want something it is always possible to at least try to change them.

I am sorry I went OT here, but I was just repling to CSI.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: CANSTANDIT on November 29, 2007, 11:01:11 AM
Fair enough, jwm. The story is what it is; the characters are what they are . I guess I just find myself travelling more in the realm of what they did do and why; then what they should have done. But I do appreciate your frustration. And my personal assessment of Ennis has nothing to do with my empathy for Jack. It is for me more painful to think of him being alone and alienated from so many people, and not for lack of trying to do his best,, than to think of Ennis dealing with his ghosts, actually.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: jwm on November 29, 2007, 11:18:55 AM
Fair enough, jwm. The story is what it is; the characters are what they are . I guess I just find myself travelling more in the realm of what they did do and why; then what they should have done. But I do appreciate your frustration. And my personal assessment of Ennis has nothing to do with my empathy for Jack. It is for me more painful to think of him being alone and alienated from so many people, and not for lack of trying to do his best,, than to think of Ennis dealing with his ghosts, actually.
Hi there, yes I know it is such a roller coaster ride for me, this is to me a story for so many people. I have so many emotions about this, and don't get me wrong I do love Ennis, with all his faults. I can't help myself feeling for him, because he couldn't have been all that bad or Jack never would have did what he did for his love, and yet he never would have ended up in that state of mind if not for Ennis. So it is a no win situtation. I just know that both of these men had one hell of a ride that is for sure, so much pain and loneliness and on the other hand they had so much love and peace if only for a short time it made it all worth it in a way I guess. To have loved and lost is better than never loving at all, or so they say. ;D Sometimes I have to wonder about that.
Wendy
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: CANSTANDIT on November 29, 2007, 11:21:24 AM
I hear ya, I hear ya...reality is always so much harder, and humans are always so much more frail than we sometimes tell ourselves.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Ministering angel on November 29, 2007, 06:05:04 PM
Wendy, in the SS the impression gained is that both the waitress and "Randall" are relative newcomers on the scene, and so it makes sense that neither Jack nor Ennis would have spoken about them before. The conversation takes place on the last trip and so the scriptwriters also placed it there but they moved the beginnings of the two relationships to a much earlier point in the story. It's one of those thigs that doesn't quite sit right in the film.

So you ask why Ennis hadn't mentioned Cassie earlier - it's just the quirks of translating book to film. Why not ask why Jack didn't mention Randall? Or are you assuming that didn't kick off until 2-3 years after they first met?

Re. Ennis's culpability: I understand your frustration with him but I think AP gave him a past which pretty much precluded him having a real choice. Sure, he had a choice but it wasn't a 50/50 choice, not in his eyes. He "knew" what he and Jack were doing could very likely lead to painful, humiliating death, but he did it anyway, albeit in a very restricted way. You said:

So in MHOP Ennis wasted so much time warring about what was behind him, what was around every corner, and what other people thought, and no where enough time in the present. He had a challenge sure enough, but everyone does, and he chose not to face it. He took what was right in front of him and twisted it and scrambled it, until it made no sense at all.


I don't want to sound overbearing but I just find this idea that Ennis should have somehow got over it, as if it were a fear of spiders or a bit of shyness or whatever, denies the very real effects of homophobia in this situation. Ennis had real and crippling psychological trauma, and he had no way to overcome it, because the only person he might have been able to talk to was the one person who triggered his problem. People can't just choose to rid themselves of these sorts of problems. It isn't a choice between being paranoid and being okay.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: CANSTANDIT on November 29, 2007, 08:53:23 PM
'Why not ask why Jack didn't mention Randall?'

cuz Jack knew he'd get a ass-whuppin'..... ;)
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: CANSTANDIT on November 29, 2007, 08:58:22 PM
I don't want to appear to gang up on any individual's theories, but it is true that if you think about it, Jack was exactly the wrong person from a psychological standpoint, to 'help' Ennis-yet he was right in all the other ways-emotionally, intellectually, physically, sexually...It was just the way Ennis's thought process had evolved-or been stifled-by the Earl trauma-he could simply not think through to any sort of hopeful goal-setting with a man, given what he went through. It was not possible. The spectre of Earl indeed loomed way too large..and being near Jack, did exactly what's been said: triggered it. It was a very present paradox for Ennis-love the man who triggers his hphobia.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Sandy on November 30, 2007, 08:12:01 AM
The discussion is veering off topic a tad.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: CANSTANDIT on November 30, 2007, 10:17:49 AM
You're right....

back to Ennis and Cassie:

I can't assess her charm from Ennis's standpoint, other than to say, he seemed enthusiastic , once he got through the dance floor fiasco-Apparently, he thought he danced with her once, so that ritual was over with  ;)  typical, typical  ;D

What I really mean is, he seems to have passed some sort of self-assessment, ie,'I'm attractive so I must be ok' with her..and I'm not too certain she couldn't have been a lot less charming and had the same impact on him-the idea, is she is a woman, and she finds him attractive. It is a form of validation for him. And it happens right after the 'like they know' scene with Jack, which did not ease Ennis's fears, at all. Poor dumb Jack-why didn't he just say to Ennis,'Hey Cowboy, no one would ever think something was WRONG with you..' lie like a rug. We all do it for those we love.   :D
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: speechless on January 06, 2008, 10:38:45 AM
Poor dumb Jack-why didn't he just say to Ennis,'Hey Cowboy, no one would ever think something was WRONG with you..' lie like a rug. We all do it for those we love.

yeah- but I think it was obvious to people that sth was wrong- perhaps they won't look at him and say- he's a queer( he sure didn't look like one, but I don't want to go into the whole stereotype thing), but there sure was sth about him that wasn't clear to people, in this case Cassie.
She does remind me of Jack in some ways... ::)
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: CANSTANDIT on January 06, 2008, 04:31:22 PM
oooh, can you explain that Cassie comment? I love new ideas!!!!!
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: speechless on January 07, 2008, 06:43:07 AM
Well...she took the 1st step -like Jack did and she showed interest in him, just what he needed at the time. She was different kind than Alma - exciting, fun...probably reminding him of Jack as well in a way.

But in that scene when she says: girls don't fall in love for fun, or something like that and he replies something like- I didn't fool anyone did I? (or something similar- I really don't remember that scene so well) What did he mean?
Do you think she knows?
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: CANSTANDIT on January 07, 2008, 07:38:31 AM
OH, I see what you meant-that Cassie somehow caught on that something wasn't right. Yes, she says, 'I don't get you, Ennis del Mar'. He says, 'I wasn't much fun anyways, was I?' To him, fun = s-e-x, and we know this because Cassie says, 'Girls don't fall in love with fun.' If you recall, 'fun' is indeed a euphemism used in that way. People always used to see 'fun' and 'a good time' to mean lovemaking.... So he is telling her what he thinks matters to her-to Jack, really-and she tells him he's wrong-so he'd be wrong about Jack, too, wouldn't he? That to me is the real impact of that scene-Cassie is indeed, the female Jack, and is used to show us how Ennis really thinks and feels. He is safe to deal with her, whereas he is not safe to deal with Jack in an emotionally honest way-because that might be queer.
I don't think Cassie ever understood what it all meant-she just found herself with a difficult man, who seemed amenable to her, but then got tired of it-because of course, he's not getting any satisfaction out of it. And she is just blinded by her love for him enough to do just what Jack did-pretend for a long time, that he would change, come around.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: speechless on January 07, 2008, 10:04:39 AM
to bad he only realized things when it was already too late ( for Jack i mean) and I think that Cassie does play important role even it's it the minor one in the movie!
yeah...
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Marz on March 22, 2008, 02:17:09 PM
i think cassie is just there to show ennis how much he did love and have feelings for jack so although shes not in the film much she plays a big tunring point in ennis's life, realizing just how much he loved jack
also something slightly different, i love the way alma jr is so NOT impressed when she meets cassie and the way she says hello to her and is very quiet is very much like her mum
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: CANSTANDIT on March 22, 2008, 07:56:37 PM
She's also a bit like her dad-kind of eyes-cast-down quiet and awkward.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Marz on March 23, 2008, 11:09:30 AM
yeah thats true i was fousing on how much she was like alma i didn't even notice how much she was like ennis
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Orleanas on August 09, 2008, 01:09:32 PM
OH, I see what you meant-that Cassie somehow caught on that something wasn't right. Yes, she says, 'I don't get you, Ennis del Mar'. He says, 'I wasn't much fun anyways, was I?' To him, fun = s-e-x, and we know this because Cassie says, 'Girls don't fall in love with fun.' If you recall, 'fun' is indeed a euphemism used in that way. People always used to see 'fun' and 'a good time' to mean lovemaking.... So he is telling her what he thinks matters to her-to Jack, really-and she tells him he's wrong-so he'd be wrong about Jack, too, wouldn't he? That to me is the real impact of that scene-Cassie is indeed, the female Jack, and is used to show us how Ennis really thinks and feels. He is safe to deal with her, whereas he is not safe to deal with Jack in an emotionally honest way-because that might be queer.
I don't think Cassie ever understood what it all meant-she just found herself with a difficult man, who seemed amenable to her, but then got tired of it-because of course, he's not getting any satisfaction out of it. And she is just blinded by her love for him enough to do just what Jack did-pretend for a long time, that he would change, come around.

I actually took Ennis's statement about him not being fun in a non-sexual way. I thought that he was connecting it to Alma, who I think complained about his lack of desire to do anything fun. At home with her and the kids, he wanted to stay away from the "fire and brimstone crowd," as he called it, while Alma wanted them to go to the church social. Ennis was not an outgoing type. So when he said that to Cassie, I really just thought he was recalling complaints that Alma had made about him, and his own understanding that he was not a social person who liked to do what people would consider "fun."
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: CANSTANDIT on August 09, 2008, 09:36:39 PM
I think that is true as well. :)

Hi, Orleanas and welcome. I look forward to discussing further with you.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Orleanas on August 09, 2008, 11:29:31 PM
I think that is true as well. :)

Hi, Orleanas and welcome. I look forward to discussing further with you.

Thanks for the welcome CANSTANDIT. I keep thinking that I won't have much to add as it seems that most of the people here have been discussing BBM for a couple of years now, and I'd think that everything has been talked about. Looking forward to sharing whatever I can though.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Desecra on August 09, 2008, 11:55:37 PM
Welcome, Orleanas.   I'm sure you'll have lots to add - some of us have been discussing it for a long while but we still haven't got to the bottom of it!   New perspectives, or retakes on old, are always very welcome :).
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Marz on September 23, 2008, 04:16:50 AM
Cassie and Alma couldn't be more different if they tried, the first time we see cassie in that bar she has those tiny shorts! alma would never of worn anything like that
obviously that had been done on purpose, that ennis would be attracted to a girl so different from his ex-wife
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Ministering angel on September 23, 2008, 05:14:55 AM
Marz, one of the suggestions - and a pretty compelling one - is that Cassie is a female Jack. She is bright and outgoing, she's interested in Ennis, gets him to talk about himself, draws him out of his shell, etc. She sticks with him despite his seeming lack of interest, and finally he breaks her heart. It's as if she's the perfect woman for him, Jack in a skirt, and yet he can't make a go of it.

There's also the contrast between the way she can flirt with him in public the first time she meets him, put her feet in his lap, dance with him, etc. whereas Jack had to be halfway up a mountain, after weeks of waiting, has to make his move surreptitiously (note how Ennis asks "What're you doing?" to both of them.)
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Marz on September 23, 2008, 01:21:13 PM
ah that makes sense, ive never compaired her to jack, always alma (probably cos there both girls)im so stupid!!!
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Marz on October 26, 2008, 07:01:10 AM
something else ive only just noticed

when cassie comes into the cafe with carl and goes over to ennis and she gets upset and says 'Ennis girls don't fall in love with fun'
he seems shocked like he didn't know that she had fallen in love with him
also ennis doesn't hear the talk cassie has with Jr when she says 'your daddy ever see fit to get married again' so jr nows how much cassie likes him but ennis has no idea
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: CANSTANDIT on October 26, 2008, 09:42:16 AM
Quote
so jr nows how much cassie likes him but ennis has no idea
 

Good pt, Marz.....it seems Ennis is always late out of the gate-except in FNIT. ;)
 
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: fofol on December 01, 2008, 11:23:59 AM
something else ive only just noticed

when cassie comes into the cafe with carl and goes over to ennis and she gets upset and says 'Ennis girls don't fall in love with fun'
he seems shocked like he didn't know that she had fallen in love with him
also ennis doesn't hear the talk cassie has with Jr when she says 'your daddy ever see fit to get married again' so jr nows how much cassie likes him but ennis has no idea

   This is where we learn for sure that Ennis doesn't understand and probably doesn't even know what feelings are for sure.  It's also where he learns what love is - her desire for him even when it causes pain, mirroring his feelings for Jack.  The cruelest blow of the entire story is that just as Ennis discovers what love is and that it's what "this thing" is, Jack becomes terminally unavailable.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: CANSTANDIT on December 03, 2008, 06:25:04 AM
I wonder if it also mirrors, for Ennis, Jack's feelings for him.....Cassie's quitting him for Carl, had to be an eerie reminder of Jack's threat. I see the filmmakers pov on whether or not Jack quit as being stamped all over that scene.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: fofol on December 03, 2008, 06:38:23 AM
  Interesting, Jo - You know, I wonder though if she actually quit him for Carl or just gave up on Ennis, accepting Carl as Mr. Right Now?
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: CANSTANDIT on December 03, 2008, 06:39:26 AM
  Interesting, Jo - You know, I wonder though if she actually quit him for Carl or just gave up on Ennis, accepting Carl as Mr. Right Now?
I think she gave up on Ennis, so quit him for Carl as Mr. Right-how's that?  ;D ;D
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Sara B on December 03, 2008, 07:57:10 AM
I think Carl was very much only second-best for Cassie - Ennis's indifference can still make her cry.  In fact her 'Girls don't fall in love with fun' is a declaration of love that is by no means over.

I feel Ennis is deeply depressed in this scene, in the interlude between the last meeting and the 'deceased' postcard, when he doesn't know if he has alienated Jack forever. It may well take place after November, so that he thinks Jack has deliberately ignored his last postcard.  He's having difficulty even swallowing his food, and he seems only dimly aware of Cassie and what she is saying and feeling.  I think he does have some understanding of how he has affected her, but feels helpless to do anything about it - it's just one more sadness in an already bleak world.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: fofol on December 03, 2008, 10:07:34 AM
  Interesting, Jo - You know, I wonder though if she actually quit him for Carl or just gave up on Ennis, accepting Carl as Mr. Right Now?
I think she gave up on Ennis, so quit him for Carl as Mr. Right-how's that?  ;D ;D


   It's still the saddest case of "you don't miss the water 'til the well runs dry...      :'(    :-*
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: CANSTANDIT on December 03, 2008, 09:28:20 PM
  Interesting, Jo - You know, I wonder though if she actually quit him for Carl or just gave up on Ennis, accepting Carl as Mr. Right Now?
I think she gave up on Ennis, so quit him for Carl as Mr. Right-how's that?  ;D ;D


   It's still the saddest case of "you don't miss the water 'til the well runs dry...      :'(    :-*
Oh, yeah, friend, I don't disagree.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: fofol on December 04, 2008, 09:17:26 AM
I think Carl was very much only second-best for Cassie - Ennis's indifference can still make her cry.  In fact her 'Girls don't fall in love with fun' is a declaration of love that is by no means over.

I feel Ennis is deeply depressed in this scene, in the interlude between the last meeting and the 'deceased' postcard, when he doesn't know if he has alienated Jack forever. It may well take place after November, so that he thinks Jack has deliberately ignored his last postcard.  He's having difficulty even swallowing his food, and he seems only dimly aware of Cassie and what she is saying and feeling.  I think he does have some understanding of how he has affected her, but feels helpless to do anything about it - it's just one more sadness in an already bleak world.

   In a film loaded with heart-breaking scenes, for me, Ennis in the terminal is one of the heart-breakingest.  (For the symbolists among us, isn't it an eye-opener for him to be eating his apple pie - as in Home, Mom, and apple pie - so slowly, unhappily and in this bleak location?)  Still, listening to the way he responds to Cassie I hear a nine-year-old fighting back with as much emotional maturity as he can deliver - hardly any: while she's professing love to him and he's going, nyah-nyah,nyah-nyah-nyah.  And when he finally gets it (or at least some of what's going on, that she's hurting and he's not helping) he still doesn't really get it, or know how to properly respond, so he tries to be self-deprecating - guess I wasn't much fun anyway - which is so not what she needed to hear.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: newfan on February 04, 2009, 03:36:01 AM
One subtle point. When Cassie asks him "did you get my messages?" Ennis responds by looking directly at Carl and coldly states "I got your message in any case", which IMO means "obviously you couldn't get what you wanted out of me, so you went and found someone else". This is a brilliant juxtaposition of the preceding scene with Jack where essentially Jack replaces Ennis with prostitutes in Mexico since he was not satisfied with what Ennis could not give him. (God the unbelievable subtleties to this movie!)
The interesting thing is that Ennis' response to this with Jack is "those things I dont' know could get you killed if I should come to know them" ie I will kill you for replacing me. His response to Cassie?"Good for you" and then he turns back to eating his apple pie.
To me this speaks volumes about Ennis love for Jack and maybe a lesson to Ennis that people need love...if they don't get it, they look elsewhere. Ennis is not this way. He only loves Jack ("all these years you didn't find anyone else to marry?") and even Cassie is in the picture merely because she aggressively pursued him, not because he reached out to her, or anyone else for the matter.
I think Ennis' psyche is such that he thinks having nothing is ok....maybe because he was brought up that way. That you don't have to "replace love" once it's not available to you with the next best thing. (he says to Alma Jr. "when you don't have nothing you don't need nothing" speaks to more than just furniture). of course Jack is not like this..he needs something when Ennis is not available ("I'm not you Ennis..I can't make it on a few high altitude fucks").  Jack is essentially ALL that Ennis needs. Nothing else matters and no one else can be in the picture or even be a cheap substitute. I think he implies this when he says" it's because  of you Jack that I'm like this..I'm nothing..nowhere" meaning that Jack fills a singular void in him 100% and without Jack no one can even be in his life in that way. Jack is not this way obviously and in the book metaphorically Proux writes..Jack says "that's one of two things I need right now" which means that Jack has many needs, Ennis being one of them. Perhaps it is the many needs, of which Ennis cannot fulfill, that ultimately dooms their relationship for Jack, but not for Ennis.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: CANSTANDIT on February 07, 2009, 01:40:31 PM
^^^^^^^^

great post..I agree, Ennis doesn't get it, but starts to, perhaps, after Cassie tells him girls don't fall in love with fun.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Marz on February 09, 2009, 02:30:38 PM
yeah, when she says the word 'Love' hes visabally shocked
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: AZ.bbm on February 15, 2009, 08:49:32 AM
I put off posting because the final Ennis-Cassie confrontation still rips my heart out. God, I love this story.  I would have loved for the screenplay artists to have developed the Ennis-Cassie thing a little further, because it would have brought Ennis' character more into focus. It's hard piecing together the snapshots we got of their lives.
I don't know what more anyone could add to what has already been said, but here's a (slightly different) take on the final scene with Ennis and Cassie.

I recall that during his last encounter with Jack Ennis told him that he was "putting the BLOCKS" to someone -- i.e., not meaning have sex with her but that he was BLOCKING Cassie's emotional advances, resisting her efforts to get him? which would be the exact opposite of "putting the MOVES" on someone, no?   It occurs to me that Cassie was frustrated that she could be so lovely and try so hard, and yet not get anywhere with her man ("I don't get you, Ennis del Mar?!"). 

As some have stated, for Ennis, Cassie was his 'trophy chick,' and moreover she was a fun diversion for him while awaiting the next encounter with Jack.  Despite what he told Jack during their final meeting at the lake, I actually think that, over many months (years?) Ennis had become very fond of this "cute little gal." But after his final confrontation with Jack, Ennis is almost more depressed than is humanly possible -- so what does he do? -- he folds further inward, shutting out everyone, particularly Cassie. 

I think that quite possibly Cassie, although she is as addicted to Ennis as he is addicted to Jack, must have come to understand that Ennis was either an emotional cripple or involved with someone else, or clinically depressed, or just plain brain-dead, or something...but still she persisted, showing up at Stoutamire's ranch or at his home at any hour, leaving him gifts, wine, flowers, notes, (condoms?) etc.  But, while she wanted to get emotionally involved with Ennis, she must have known that after all this time she hadn't reached him and probably never would, so she reached for someone else - someone able to articulate his emotions - Carl. ("-Yeah. Good for me." )

In the bus station scene I first thought that Ennis was actually apologizing to Cassie. In fact, he did say he was "sorry." But the line, "I was probly no fun, anyways, was I?"  seemed just so oblique: Consider for a moment that Ennis is actually being sarcastic with Cassie, making that statement to REMIND her in an offhand (and off-putting) way that the two of them actually DID have a lot of of fun together... I think she came to know, then, that their relationship was only about fun (partying, drinking, sex, etc.). Despite her "I don't get you" quip, I think she "got him" finally, realized she'd been used, "rode hard and put away wet."  :-\

Cassie didn't get anywhere with Ennis because he couldn't LET her get anywhere. Ennis was emotionally crippled even before he met Jack, and he had his hands full just putting 'the blocks' to his main lover's emotional needs without driving him away... He was on overload just trying to "manage his relationship with Jack, and in a larger sense he had already sacrificed his life for him -and to think, he was losing him(!). Even at that point, Ennis, who already had been 'deserted' four times in his life (his parents, his brother, his wife, and possibly Jack) still had no clue as to why or how anyone could manage to love him in the first place.

Cassie, on the other hand, was ready to go beyond the hook-up with what she thought was a quiet, simple man(!), to rescue him from his past, to love him completely, whatever... It would be ironic that prior to the encounter at the diner she had never come out and told him she loved him.. Apparently for Ennis the concept of 'LOVE' was on the Del Mar taboo list, which may be why Cassie's parting salvo ("Ennis, girls don't fall in love with fun!") was such a gutpunch for him.. I mean, "Who said anything about love, honey?"

 


Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: CANSTANDIT on February 15, 2009, 09:49:26 AM
Phew! what a great post!! You've got me thinking, that's for sure. I love the idea of him 'blocking' her emotional needs-so true, so true about jack, too. I think that works really well both on the sexual level-because they were after all having sex, we know, with Cassie putting her feet in his lap and asking for a massage as  the contrast to Jack putting Ennis's hand on him in the tent and Ennis pulling away- and on the emotional level, I think. Good catch. :)

And welcome to the Themes and Scenes threads-I am guessing you are going to have a blast, azbbm!
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Dal on February 15, 2009, 02:08:04 PM
Welcome to the forum, azbbm.  I like your take on that scene, a lot.  Both Ennis and Cassie are a little more multi-dimensional, seems to me, than the 'standard reading' around here -- e.g. in your take, abandonment is more a factor than it's usually given credit for, and Ennis is capable of (a little) irony.  Not just a sort of sweet bumbler who occasionally gets into it in a bar.  And in your take, the Ennis/Cassie affair (or whatever) has  more depth.  And both Ennis and Cassie seem to have a little more life, more dimensions;  seem more adult and more Western (I can't explain). 

~ [E & C] were after all having sex, we know, with Cassie putting her feet in his lap and asking for a massage as  the contrast to Jack putting Ennis's hand on him in the tent and Ennis pulling away- ~
Do you mean that we would not know they were sleeping together, had she not put her feet in his lap, and told him what to do? I don't know --  footsy or no footsy, it would have taken her 2 nights max to know something was very wrong with him, if they were not having sex!  [Unless, unbeknowst to us, she is his sister, now divorced from her roughneck!  - or it is Lent and he's sworn off for the duration]  If they're still together, at their ages, where they live, they gotta be sleeping together, seems to me.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: CANSTANDIT on February 15, 2009, 02:53:05 PM
Welcome to the forum, azbbm.  I like your take on that scene, a lot.  Both Ennis and Cassie are a little more multi-dimensional, seems to me, than the 'standard reading' around here -- e.g. in your take, abandonment is more a factor than it's usually given credit for, and Ennis is capable of (a little) irony.  Not just a sort of sweet bumbler who occasionally gets into it in a bar.  And in your take, the Ennis/Cassie affair (or whatever) has  more depth.  And both Ennis and Cassie seem to have a little more life, more dimensions;  seem more adult and more Western (I can't explain). 

~ [E & C] were after all having sex, we know, with Cassie putting her feet in his lap and asking for a massage as  the contrast to Jack putting Ennis's hand on him in the tent and Ennis pulling away- ~
Do you mean that we would not know they were sleeping together, had she not put her feet in his lap, and told him what to do? I don't know --  footsy or no footsy, it would have taken her 2 nights max to know something was very wrong with him, if they were not having sex!  [Unless, unbeknowst to us, she is his sister, now divorced from her roughneck!  - or it is Lent and he's sworn off for the duration]  If they're still together, at their ages, where they live, they gotta be sleeping together, seems to me.
Way back when, there was some doubt amongst some posters, because we never saw the actual sex....I never doubted it myself. I think the footrub was a way of signalling the inevitable.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Ministering angel on February 15, 2009, 04:42:11 PM
Welcome, azbbm.

I like your take on the Cassie scenes. and I especially like that double meaning of "putting the blocks". While the phrase does mean "having sex with", you've highlighted that other idea of Ennis blocking her emotionally, which is pretty much what he did with Jack. Sex was fine, love was a no-no.

The fact that Cassie is an attractive, go-getting sort of woman (with ambitions to be a nurse "or something" even though she's still waitressing in a crummy small-town bar), and yet she still persists with Ennis, says a lot about his appeal. She is doing what Jack is doing, trying hard for a long time to get past that exterior barrier.

Ennis gives very little away to his lovers in the film. He is closed-down to an almost catatonic degree. But by boosting the role of the waitress (who only gets a glancing mention in the story, to the point where posters have occasionally argued that she may not have been real) the filmmakers show us that Jack is not just some deadhead loser, throwing his life away on a man who gives him nothing. If these two reasonably attractive and successful and outgoing people (Cassie and Jack) can find something within Ennis which binds them to him, then there must be something beneath that tense and guarded exterior.

(We know there is, because we see Ennis in other moments. Take the scene where he is about to go on a trip, so excited that he leaves his fishing gear. Then we see him with a grin from ear to ear (or as much as Ennis can manage) as he gets out of the truck, yet by the time he gets down to Jack he is restrained - a slow approach, a throw-away line about beans.)
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: AZ.bbm on February 16, 2009, 09:00:36 AM
Phew! what a great post!! You've got me thinking, that's for sure. I love the idea of him 'blocking' her emotional needs-so true, so true about jack, too. I think that works really well both on the sexual level-because they were after all having sex, we know, with Cassie putting her feet in his lap and asking for a massage as  the contrast to Jack putting Ennis's hand on him in the tent and Ennis pulling away- and on the emotional level, I think. Good catch. :)

And welcome to the Themes and Scenes threads-I am guessing you are going to have a blast, azbbm!


Thanks for the welcome, CSI!  You and dal and MiniA and the others are awesome, I've read and thoroughly enjoyed your perspectives over many months of working through my issues* after reading/watching BBM. (*I'll spare you the details.)

Yep,.with the footrub, they showed us several things, one was that just like with Jack, Ennis had trouble dealing with  physical advances... It looks like, since he was powerless to resist, in order to maintain control he resorted to 'emotional distancing.'  Clamming up.  Like MiniA indicates, Ennis was controlling himself to the point of being catatonic.

And I see that adults who've been abused as children tend to become abusers, themselves - manipulative, controlling. Iin the movie, the morning after FNIT, Ennis emotionally abuses Jack, ignoring him and riding off? I'm guessing Ennis probably didn't speak to poor Jack for days (We can't tell, but I believe that there was a significant interval between FNIT & SNIT where Ennis was trying to regain control, un-shame himself or whatever, but by SNIT he must have realized that he had real feelings for his newfound friend, more than relief from loneliness or physical desire, realized that he'd wounded this wonderful man, and more than anything it was paramount for him to apologize to Jack ["I'm sorry..." -- "It's alright..."]) :">
 
It seems to me that Cassie was a controlling type, too, I mean she routinely violates Ennis' personal space from the get-go, latching onto him in the bar and hauling this shy wallflower of a man, laboring under an alcohol fog, and oxygen-deprived from smoking several packs of cigarettes, onto the dance floor, gets 'all up' in his face, makes him perform for her. -In public. -And he can't dance...  ;D LOL

In the diner scene, over-controlling and shut down, Ennis is not happy to see her, doesn't  return the greeting she offers, doesn't even look up, initially, but continues eating  his pie.  Being an assertive gal Cassie simply moves in, sits down and helps herself. She (and Jack) had no qualms about violating Ennis' personal space in order to love him -- both sliced right through his crust and helped themselves to the filling.  Good for them?

Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: AZ.bbm on February 16, 2009, 09:16:38 AM
Welcome to the forum, azbbm.  I like your take on that scene, a lot.  Both Ennis and Cassie are a little more multi-dimensional, seems to me, than the 'standard reading' around here -- e.g. in your take, abandonment is more a factor than it's usually given credit for, and Ennis is capable of (a little) irony.  Not just a sort of sweet bumbler who occasionally gets into it in a bar.  And in your take, the Ennis/Cassie affair (or whatever) has  more depth.  And both Ennis and Cassie seem to have a little more life, more dimensions;  seem more adult and more Western (I can't explain). 



Thanks, Dal, for the welcome!

Yes, we have so little to go on from the story, and the screenplay is just as "gappy"..  Cassie and Ennis would be complex people with lots of baggage.

I found it ironic that in the short story, during the final rendevous with Jack, Ennis, a repressed, alcoholic homophobe, claims that he doesn't want to get (emotionally) involved with Cassie because of HER personal baggage.(!) You GO, boy! :D

Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: AZ.bbm on February 16, 2009, 10:37:02 AM
Welcome, azbbm.

I like your take on the Cassie scenes. and I especially like that double meaning of "putting the blocks". While the phrase does mean "having sex with", you've highlighted that other idea of Ennis blocking her emotionally, which is pretty much what he did with Jack. Sex was fine, love was a no-no.

The fact that Cassie is an attractive, go-getting sort of woman (with ambitions to be a nurse "or something" even though she's still waitressing in a crummy small-town bar), and yet she still persists with Ennis, says a lot about his appeal. She is doing what Jack is doing, trying hard for a long time to get past that exterior barrier.

Ennis gives very little away to his lovers in the film. He is closed-down to an almost catatonic degree. But by boosting the role of the waitress (who only gets a glancing mention in the story, to the point where posters have occasionally argued that she may not have been real) the filmmakers show us that Jack is not just some deadhead loser, throwing his life away on a man who gives him nothing. If these two reasonably attractive and successful and outgoing people (Cassie and Jack) can find something within Ennis which binds them to him, then there must be something beneath that tense and guarded exterior.

(We know there is, because we see Ennis in other moments. Take the scene where he is about to go on a trip, so excited that he leaves his fishing gear. Then we see him with a grin from ear to ear (or as much as Ennis can manage) as he gets out of the truck, yet by the time he gets down to Jack he is restrained - a slow approach, a throw-away line about beans.)


Hi, MiniA, and thanks for the welcome.
I didn't realize that putting the blocks to was a sexual reference.  I thought it was just a literary phrase AP dreamed up, or a Wyoming-ism for resisting someone's advances.
 
I agree that the movie/story Ennis is a lovable character, no doubt. I worked with 'Ennis' at an Arizona electronics firm in the 80's-90's, shared an office with this former cowboy for over fifteen years, but 'my Ennis' was not so lovable...  Back then I was a software engineer,  and 'Ennis' was the equivalent process engineer there.  Arizona Ennis was divorced, with only one daughter, his marriage lasted less than a year. The grounds for the annulment I learned was "emotional vagrancy" or something...  AZ Ennis had a rep for being a redneck "womanizer" a notorious alcoholic, and he was a charming sociopath who used people as if they came out of vending machines.
 
My Ennis too was extremely closeted, went on "fishing and hunting trips" for weeks at a time, ONLY with his brutally-handsome flamboyant nephew who wore black cowboy hats with bright mauve or pink-colored sashes and had ocean-blue eyes like Jake G's.  I only learned about my Ennis' other life after many years of listening to his scathing criticisms of the LGBT community, when I just happened to stumble upon (-sure, sure!  >:D ) the pictures from his latest "camping trip" at the back of his desk. I inquired about the pictures and Ennis ignored me as if I wasn't even there. :-\

However, much later, on the way out of the building one evening, I casually asked my Ennis what types of women he preferred and how many women he'd had along the way... He stopped, turned to me and said baldly, "What the F*CK are you talkin about?! -- the only way I can get NEAR a woman is to get sh*t-faced, dog-assed drunk!" Then he added the clincher, he says: "YOU'RE a smart person?! -- I would have thought you'da had it all figured out by now!"  Then 'Ennis' pulled his hat down over his eyes and walked on away from me.  I worked with my Ennis five more years after that... The subject never came up again.

When I saw the movie where Ennis del Mar is scolding Jack about his move-to-Texas suggestion, it was jaw-dropping.



Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Ministering angel on February 16, 2009, 02:48:29 PM
Wow! That's quite a tale.

Yes, "to put the blocks to" someone is an oldish  term for having sex. I just liked your different take on it.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Desecra on February 17, 2009, 12:57:46 AM
Not having come across the term before, I think I read it initially as something like "courting" - making advances.    That downplayed the relationship for me.  I didn't realise it meant sex - I also like the idea of "blocking". 
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Sara B on February 17, 2009, 02:44:04 AM
^^^^^
I read it the same way until it came up in Topic of the Week (I think).  Seems a strange expression for having sex.  I can't see where it comes from - any ideas?
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Desecra on February 17, 2009, 03:13:16 AM
I remember that once somebody said it came from putting a vehicle on blocks so you could work on the undercarriage.   I suppose that would be a sexual metaphor then :). 
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Sara B on February 17, 2009, 03:42:37 AM
How delightful ;D.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: CANSTANDIT on February 17, 2009, 06:31:45 AM

'putting the blocks to' with the waitress; and Jack spending half his time under 'that c*nt truck' are interesting book-ends in this regard..Jack winds up spending his time under  ;) Lureen, figuratively; She holds the purse strings....
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Desecra on February 17, 2009, 08:58:23 AM
Oh, I hadn't thought about the blocks being related to Jack being under the truck :).  Both of them trying to fix women - it's not going to work, is it?  :D
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Ministering angel on February 17, 2009, 03:42:32 PM
Nice catch, Jo! I like that one.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: CANSTANDIT on February 17, 2009, 04:46:30 PM
I was just following the thought... :) thanks.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: en e me on April 09, 2009, 01:17:57 AM
As I watched tonite Ennis's facial expression in the bus stop exchange with Cassie it seemed additionally this time as if this was a realization like a sudden puzzle piece Ennis places. Love hurts. Comparing the pain he hadn't been aware Cassie felt connects to a parallel pain Jack expressed as Ennis tries to sort out the mess from their last scene together. Love hurts. He gets...hurt could be love. Not the whole revelation he was expecting but annoyingly unavoidable this time.  Without this realization I doubt Ennis could have transitioned 'deceased' into the phone call. If he was so into his own self hurt that he didn't think he loved Jack then he'd have no reason to find out what happened to him. All the hurts in his life lined up associated with love finally make his own hurt search to see if there could be some possible connection to love. It must have been eeiry weird for Ennis to be in this feared unfamiliar territory searching for the answer to the burning question that was consumming him by then..."I know I ain't?" Why else would he summon the courage to make the phone call?
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Ministering angel on April 09, 2009, 02:36:53 AM
So you're saying that he would have needed some sort of change of heart in order to be able to make the phone call?  Given that he had reached out to Jack after the divorce, I'm not sure that he would have needed much prompting. I think the sickening jolt caused by the returned postcard (and his bit of denial of the truth and his need to confirm that it was just a horrible mistake) would have been sufficient to break him out of any stasis.

We see Ennis lose out four times: when his parents die (which I always associate with the description "He felt about as bad as he ever had.."), when he leaves Jack and gets gut cramps, when he loses his marriage and second family and reaches out to Jack with his only other phone call, and finally when he gets the postcard back. His reaction to each loss seems pretty big. I can't imagine he'd get the postcard back and just never follow it up.

I'm not sure if it can be so clearly applied to the film, however, since we really don't get the childhood loss quite so strongly, and the postcard he sends after the divorce seems slightly less urgent than the story's phone call. And, of course, his alley response is clearly recognisable to him as an emotional one, I think. We never get any other explanation for it.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: CANSTANDIT on April 09, 2009, 11:20:42 AM
en e me, I do like the idea that love hurts, so maybe this is love. It shows us the purpose Cassie serves in the film..a clever way to bring Ennis's mental faculties to bear on his situation. He gets to see from a safe, straight platform the impact of his neglect of Cassie.... ergo, Jack.

Marian, yes a big problem I see with the alley scene is that he is crying..he has to recognize it as an emotional loss. I think text Ennis is much deeper into denial. We get the classic macho response-"my gut hurts"-instead of  the sense of embarrasment he has over being seen by the good samaritian cowboy, while in tears....

I think he does get jolted out of stasis as you put it, I think, several times in the movie-but ironically, he is the one that really has to be hurt in the end, to hear good. So it tells us he never allowed hurt to far in his front door, until he lost Jack and saw too late, the shirts. Then he heard good-he put up the altar, and could move no further.

I think he pushes off any hurt with rage, as he does with Alma's explosion in the kitchen-she's another presumable intimate who is effectively abandoning him, by putting him in that catagory with Jack that Ennis tries to stay out of-Jack Nasty and all thought. She will no longer support his denial, as Jack does. And in the film, Cassie not only does not support it-she finds someone else, and tells him why. 'girls don't fall in love with fun.' But they will and can move forward, if the hurt is too bad. A poster who is no longer here said something that's always haunted me-David, I think was his name: He said he thought Ennis was sitting in the diner thinking Jack had quit. Cassie probably reinforced it.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: AZ.bbm on April 09, 2009, 02:02:57 PM
A poster who is no longer here said something that's always haunted me...He said he thought Ennis was sitting in the diner thinking Jack had quit.  Cassie probably reinforced it.
^^^^^She would certainly have fulfilled his expectations of abandonment, if he had those, just as he believed society would, had he chosen to 'go public' with Jack.

The thought occurred me while was reading your post, Ennis seemed to rely on a number of "keys" - little aphorisms, rules of the road, which he strictly adhered to, that served to guide him throughout his life, e.g., "If you can't fix it you gotta stand it", "Them that don't have nothin dont need nuthin". These became something like little 'self-fulfilling prophecies" I think..   It seemed that he would always find himself in situations where his keys would fit ,  e.g., situations beyond his control that he would have to 'stand,' or, in some right state where he'd have nothing and ergo, wouldn't need anything, and so on..

But of all his keys, "You'll go where you're lookin," has to be (IMO) the most profound, as it suggests that poor Ennis would always be going around in circles preferring to remain in a tight loop around the coffee pot. Neither Jack or Cassie could break him out of his holding pattern.


Regards,
Az.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Ministering angel on April 09, 2009, 05:01:13 PM
Yes, I think those little aphorisms serve to reinforce Ennis's ties to his childhood. He is still following the teachings of his parents, both negative and positive. I think the love shown in the DE is a positive reflection of his mother's teaching but it's not enough to overcome the negatives which his father provided.  He trots out the aphorisms without seeming to question them, just as he never questions the treatment of Earl or the inevitability of such a fate.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: CANSTANDIT on April 09, 2009, 09:46:21 PM
A poster who is no longer here said something that's always haunted me...He said he thought Ennis was sitting in the diner thinking Jack had quit.  Cassie probably reinforced it.
^^^^^She would certainly have fulfilled his expectations of abandonment, if he had those, just as he believed society would, had he chosen to 'go public' with Jack.

The thought occurred me while was reading your post, Ennis seemed to rely on a number of "keys" - little aphorisms, rules of the road, which he strictly adhered to, that served to guide him throughout his life, e.g., "If you can't fix it you gotta stand it", "Them that don't have nothin dont need nuthin". These became something like little 'self-fulfilling prophecies" I think..   It seemed that he would always find himself in situations where his keys would fit ,  e.g., situations beyond his control that he would have to 'stand,' or, in some right state where he'd have nothing and ergo, wouldn't need anything, and so on..

But of all his keys, "You'll go where you're lookin," has to be (IMO) the most profound, as it suggests that poor Ennis would always be going around in circles preferring to remain in a tight loop around the coffee pot. Neither Jack or Cassie could break him out of his holding pattern.


Regards,
Az.

Very insightful, AZ. I especailly enjoyed the idea of the tight circles, ie, he was 'caught in my own loop' as he tells Jack.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: en e me on April 10, 2009, 02:03:42 AM
MiniA
I like what you said about story Ennis approaching the phone call with motivation. I was just commenting on movie Ennis reading his facial expressions. Every once in a while something will pop out of the movie which doesn't ground in the story. I think we do have those differences between story and film in emphasizing different motivational expressions in some cases. All azbbm's 'aphoisms in the story allow more clues to the motives. I guess AL went the simpler way maybe.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: newfan on April 18, 2009, 05:27:37 AM
All
I agree with the statement that Ennis was sitting in the diner thinking Jack may have left him. I fully beleive that Cassie is merely woman version of Jack, which is why the movie developed her character. The parallels are so strong between them. Anyone notice that when they meet, the song in the background lyrics are "it's so easy to fall in love",true for Cassie (and Jack) but much more challenging for E. The parallel that Jack may move on with someone else is, IMO in Ennis' mind when he looks up and sees Carl. I think in hs mind, Jack/Cassie will eventually leave him because of he is an island and no one can get to him. E realizes this when he looks at Carl adn says "well I got the message anyways".

The whole time E was talking to Cassie he has a blank look on his face as if he were talking through her, because in his own mind, also talking to Jack. I don't know if Cassie really was anything more than a diversion for E until he can meet up with Jack again. I would like to think that they had a more in depth relationship, but knowing how one dimensional E is, ie. just Jack, it doesn't seem like there is any more room for anyone else in life emotionally. I mean look at Alma..she was his childhood sweetheart, mother of his children, and his only wife. Can Cassie be much more than a fun distraction/poor substitute for Jack? IMO I think that is why she is only given a few sentences in the book.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: CANSTANDIT on April 18, 2009, 07:24:59 AM
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Great post, Newfan....I never thought about Ennis talking to Jack in his own mind. If I take your interpretation,  when he says to Cassie, 'I'm sorry...I was never much fun anyways, was I?', uggghhh, that gives me the willies...I do wonder if he hasn't figured Jack has quit at that point. Little did he know.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: AZ.bbm on April 18, 2009, 11:52:49 PM
--Creepy is right. 'Transference' (i.e., the re-direction of feeing or desires) could well have been a factor AL tried to bring through, directing HL to speak on 'through' Cassie, to Jack, while holding that traumatic shell-shocked expression on his face...  It seems plausible ... And kinda creepy, for sure!

It is my understanding that neurotics and people suffering from mild derangement (such as after the loss of a loved one) may readily succumb to transference; venting recriminations etc. that they're holding for one person or group, onto the wrong recipient or group. I imagine it's very confusing if you don't know what's happening.


Regards,
Az.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Ministering angel on April 19, 2009, 04:30:48 AM
All
I agree with the statement that Ennis was sitting in the diner thinking Jack may have left him. I fully beleive that Cassie is merely woman version of Jack, which is why the movie developed her character. The parallels are so strong between them. Anyone notice that when they meet, the song in the background lyrics are "it's so easy to fall in love",true for Cassie (and Jack) but much more challenging for E. The parallel that Jack may move on with someone else is, IMO in Ennis' mind when he looks up and sees Carl. I think in hs mind, Jack/Cassie will eventually leave him because of he is an island and no one can get to him. E realizes this when he looks at Carl adn says "well I got the message anyways".

Another musical link is that Cassie and Ennis are "dancing" to "Devil's Right Hand", and the tune playing when Jack and Randall meet is called "Angel Went Up In Flames", also a ref. to the ministering angel (a phrase we never hear in the film).

Edited to correct great big mistake!

Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: AZ.bbm on April 20, 2009, 01:44:12 PM
...I think the love shown in the DE is a positive reflection of his mother's teaching but it's not enough to overcome the negatives which his father provided. 

--I think so, too.
It seems clear that Ennis extended his mother's tenderness to all of his loved ones, and his father's rage to those he perceived to be his enemies.



Some thoughts on the Dozy Embrace(DE)...

__As I see it, there was a lot of unfinished business (finding the acceptance and validation) between Ennis and his father, and it left him with something of a "felt shortage" i.e., a sharp emotional void, in his young life. 

Due to the passing of Del Mar pere (his old man), the work between him and his father might never have been accomplished, and it's almost certain that, without Jack Twist, the void would have remained forever unfilled.

Jack 'stepped in' and, in a few weeks, filled that void for Ennis, and vice versa, and this might have been at least partly why the two fell for one another.  In other words, their ability to simultaneously satisfy each others' 'felt shortages' is what got them good.


__One overlooked (by me) aspect of the Dozy Embrace was how wonderfully 'recursive' the DE was (-like, multiple facing mirrors, or, video cameras aimed at their monitors):

In one respect during the DE, Jack knew that he was being held by Ennis del Mar, but in another, he may have been visualizing the embrace of his own father -- harvesting those expressions of nurturing, tenderness and validation that he yearned for from OMT but possibly never received -- or perhaps both at the same time...

In regard to Ennis, we know that he could not face Jack in the embrace, the narrator gives us that -- he did not want to know or feel that it was Jack... AP wants us to infer that either Ennis is too homophobic to engage in M2M affection, or else,  he was consoling someone else,  rocking, singing to, humming to someone other than Jack in his mind, some person for whom he cared deeply enough to comfort in this manner.

Ennis was comforting Jack in a physical space, true enough, but in another reflection, his own emotional space, it may have been that he was emulating his mother as she tried to console her tortured husband, Ennis' poor, lost father.

Although Ennis (and Jack) desperately needed their fathers' validation, Ennis knew, had his father survived, that he would never have received it from him, because Ennis would hardly be able to go face to face with his dad and reveal the truth about himself for fear of reprisal.




__Ennis may have often witnessed his mother consoling her husband in such a manner, and it might have deeply imprinted him, and consequently this mode of embrace could have become the template by which Ennis nurtured others and in turn permitted himself to be nurtured.

If so, he would likely have prompted Alma, and probably Jack and Cassie, too, in turn, to embrace him in a similar fashion.

The embrace may have also served as a 'rough template' for Ennis' preferred approach to coitus -- perhaps his 'ultimate' expression of love until the discovery of The Shirts and his ensuing 'transfiguration.'


FWIW

Regards.
-Az.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: CANSTANDIT on April 20, 2009, 02:50:34 PM
Quote
Ennis was comforting Jack in a physical space, true enough, but in another reflection, his own emotional space, it may have been that he was emulating his mother as she tried to console her tortured husband, Ennis' poor, lost father.
Hi, AZ, interesting post...can you elaborate on above, please?
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: AZ.bbm on April 20, 2009, 03:16:46 PM
Quote
Ennis was comforting Jack in a physical space, true enough, but in another reflection, his own emotional space, it may have been that he was emulating his mother as she tried to console her tortured husband, Ennis' poor, lost father.
Hi, AZ, interesting post...can you elaborate on above, please?

Hi, CSI,

Speculating here: I think Ennis was a sensitive child at one time before he hardened over; felt synpathy for his father and the hand life had dealt him. 

Perhaps Ennis understood that something in their relationship was missing, that the support and validation he had expected to receive from his old man would not be forthcoming.

According to AP, Ennis was self-loathing, and like Jack, he too never could 'get it right' with his old man. With his father gone there was no chance to finish this work with him.

Again, I'm speculating, based on similar stories by AP where validation is an issue,  that Ennis had probably witnessed his mother trying to console his father and wanted to do likewise but was not allowed to demonstrate to his homophobic father the affection he held for him for fear of being shamed.

Finally up on BB, Ennis can utilize Jack as the proxy for his own father. Ennis didn't want to know or feel that it was Jack he was holding, because his focus was being redirected toward a different end ('atonement').

That's not to indicate that Ennis stepped out of the entire DE with Jack, but only that Jack helped to  facilitate Ennis' recovery.


Regards,
Az.




Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Ministering angel on April 20, 2009, 04:52:34 PM
Azbbm, nice thoughts there about the DE. One thing which strikes me, and always has, however, is the height difference between Ennis and Jack, and the way that plays into his being able to hold Jack, parent to child fashion.

In the film it's okay that the actors are roughly the same height, but in the SS I think Jack's height is critically important. Ennis can ignore the fact that this is a full-grown man he's holding. I'm pretty convinced that it's his mother holding him which is the image of love he is building on as he rocks Jack, rather than any image of his mother holding his father or something similar.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: AZ.bbm on April 20, 2009, 06:29:54 PM
Azbbm, nice thoughts there about the DE. One thing which strikes me, and always has, however, is the height difference between Ennis and Jack, and the way that plays into his being able to hold Jack, parent to child fashion.

In the film it's okay that the actors are roughly the same height, but in the SS I think Jack's height is critically important. Ennis can ignore the fact that this is a full-grown man he's holding. I'm pretty convinced that it's his mother holding him which is the image of love he is building on as he rocks Jack, rather than any image of his mother holding his father or something similar.

That was my first reading, i.e., Ennis felt a spontaneous impulse to openly administer to Jack without rationale (echo the Reunion kiss!), which wasn't particularly his way, and therefore the boy was having a struggle with it...  'Mercifully,' in the film version the DE was over rather quickly...

It seems unlikely that Ennis would struggle for 'a long time' (as in the SS) to comfort Jack, yet not want to see or feel that it was him who he was holding; NOT want to know if his efforts to console Jack were at all effective, etc.

There have been some studies (Tripp, Hite, et.al.) re men who identify as 'gay', their relationships with their fathers, and later with their significant others which have parallels to the lives of the characters in the SS.

FWIW.


Regards,
Az.
 

P.S. Regarding the height difference it could suggest that Ennis was the 'superior' or the dominant partner in the relationship.

AL ironed that Pringle flat by including SNIT, I thought.


P.P.S: Are you familiar with "Transactional Analysis"..?  I ask because you used the term "Parent To Child"..(?)
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Ministering angel on April 20, 2009, 06:48:01 PM
Not familiar with Transactional Analysis, I'm afraid. I just used parent to child because that's what it looks like to me.

Regardless of SNIT, I think Ennis does need to take the dominant role, hence his abrupt taking control in FNIT, and the discernible warming of their relationship after the roles are switched and Ennis becomes the herder while Jack does the domestic duties.

I'm aware of studies into father/son relationships, and AP was certainly drawing on some quite strong perceptions when she drew her characters the way she did.

I'm not sure where you get the idea of Ennis struggling from. I think the DE is a changing situation, one where Ennis can approach Jack from behind (as he has done often enough in the previous weeks), hold him in a non-sexual but loving way (because he is not threatened by having an armful of Man), and then slowly get lost in the magic of the moment.

And I'm not sure why this has developed on the Ennis And Cassie thread. Perhaps we should adjourn to Relationship or To Last Scene J&E, the latter being the usual place on which the DE gets discussed. :)
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: B.W. on July 06, 2013, 09:28:41 PM
Cassie Cartwright seemed to be a young woman with dreams of finding her one true love.  She is alot like Alma and Lureen in that she has fallen for a man who cannot and does not love her in a romantic or sexual way but does care about her as a person.  I think Alma Jr. suspected that her father was in love with Jack. It can be implied.  She does mention to Cassie that he really isn't the 'marrying kind'. Right? Jack hugged Ennis in a romantic sort of way in front of Ennis' daughters after the Del Mar family divorce. I think they might have suspected something was up with their dad. Cassie doesn't seem to have even the slightest clue about Ennis and Jack.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: B.W. on July 07, 2013, 04:11:59 PM
I don't agree with all the negative views of the Cassie Cartwright character. I think she was an interesting character.  Linda Cardinelli is beautiful.  I never knew what she looke like, really outside of the Velma Dinkley roles she played from two liveaction/animated blockbuster Scooby-Doo movies with Sarah Michelle Gellar, Matthew Lillard and Freddie Prinze Jr. Freddie is hot to me. Linda Cardinelli is so pretty.  Cassie's role is brief but she was interesting.  She's just a person looking for love and ends up finding disappoinment with Ennis who is in love with another man but keep in mind, Cassie most likely doesn't even know about Jack at all. Cassie finds love with Carl probably.  I don't blame Cassie for throwing herself at Ennis.  He is cute. She has good taste but the fact remains , Ennis is gay.   I wonder if Cassie knew of Alma? Maybe. She probably wouldn't be too suprised that they divorced if she knew about Alma.  I'm guessing Cassie would have thought Alma divorced Ennis because of how withdrawn he is emotionally.  We don't know. We do know why Ennis divorces Alma.  Poor, sweet Jack.  He seemed so happy when he was riding to Ennis' new place and singing to the radio.  So cute.  It's crushing to see him cry when he is driving to Mexico.  See Jack cry was a crushing moment.  Jake did a great job in that scene.  I've never heard him mention that one or anybody else really for that matter.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: QuickSilverA on September 06, 2013, 07:17:17 PM

Quote
I don't think Ennis was a dummy - the story says they both  were "high school dropout country boys with no prospects".

I was trying to make a witty comment by calling Ennis a dummy as Cassie did so sweetly in the bar scene. To quote “peteinportland” (1/10/06) in this thread, “Cassie makes the first move with an uncomprehending Ennis by putting her feet in his lap. She gets to call him "Dummy" because he is so clueless.” Like with other wonderful things in his life, why expect Ennis to know what to do with such sexy feet? We are the dummies for believing his type ever would or could enjoy anything in life.
Don’t take me too seriously, I am having fun hating Ennis for now…blame him for them similar Ennissss in my life. I will get over it soon… lol   >:D
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Sara B on September 07, 2013, 01:26:52 AM
I was trying to make a witty comment by calling Ennis a dummy as Cassie did so sweetly in the bar scene. To quote “peteinportland” (1/10/06) in this thread, “Cassie makes the first move with an uncomprehending Ennis by putting her feet in his lap. She gets to call him "Dummy" because he is so clueless.” Like with other wonderful things in his life, why expect Ennis to know what to do with such sexy feet? We are the dummies for believing his type ever would or could enjoy anything in life.
Don’t take me too seriously, I am having fun hating Ennis for now …blame him for them similar Ennissss in my life. I will get over it soon… lol   >:D

I wish you well with your variant of Brokeback Fever. I think others have suffered from it too. :D
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: BlueJeanJeannie on September 07, 2013, 06:18:17 AM
I was trying to make a witty comment by calling Ennis a dummy as Cassie did so sweetly in the bar scene. To quote “peteinportland” (1/10/06) in this thread, “Cassie makes the first move with an uncomprehending Ennis by putting her feet in his lap. She gets to call him "Dummy" because he is so clueless.”

I see!  :)  Now it makes sense.

I'll quote your comment in the 'Reunion' thread as well, so people over there can read it.

For some reason the 'Ennis and Cassie Scenes' thread isn't very popular on this forum, I haven't even posted here before.

Am I the only one who would have preferred some more Ennis and Jack scenes, instead of Ennis and Cassie?  ;)
Linda Cardellini did a good job, and I love the scene in which Ennis and Cassie meet (Ennis tries to dance  - who would've thought?!), but overall, the scenes don't do much for me.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Sara B on September 07, 2013, 06:25:34 AM
I think that what comes over to me most is Ennis's deep depression in the final scene with Cassie. He can hardly even swallow his apple pie.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: BlueJeanJeannie on September 07, 2013, 06:35:54 AM
But that depression doesn't have anything to do with Cassie, does it? It's Jack. His depression is all about Jack.

The way he (Ennis) talks about Cassie during his last meeting with Jack... almost as if she's a stranger. And I think, in a way, she was.

Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: Sara B on September 07, 2013, 06:38:14 AM
But that depression doesn't have anything to do with Cassie, does it? It's Jack. His depression is all about Jack.

The way he (Ennis) talks about Cassie during his last meeting with Jack... almost as if she's a stranger. And I think, in a way, she was.



Yes, good comment, Sonja.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: morrobay on September 07, 2013, 06:49:55 AM
Ennis said he'd been putting the blocks to a woman who worked part-time at the Wolf Ears bar in Signal where he was working now for Stoutamire's cow and calf outfit, but it wasn't going anywhere and she had some problems he didn't want.

I wonder why the screenwriters took this one line and made a character out of her for the movie.  To show that Ennis was fucking women, while Jack would be shown, in the next scene, to be going to Mexico to fuck men?  It blurs the line even more re: Ennis being gay...

This part of the sentence - it wasn't going anywhere and (s)he had some problems he didn't want - could also directly be applied to Jack...   :'(
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: BlueJeanJeannie on September 07, 2013, 07:04:54 AM
Hmm. I hadn't even thought of it that way... you're right, Nancy.

 :(
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: QuickSilverA on September 08, 2013, 11:48:51 AM
Quote
I wish you well with your variant of Brokeback Fever. I think others have suffered from it too.

Cally, thanks for your welcome and well wishes. I do have a variant BBM fever, maybe because I grew up in a high school full of Ennisss? They make good partying buddies, sex is good if everyone is drunk, but just like Ennis, the boys get old and boring fast. Poor Jack and Cassie didnt get it.  :-X
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: CellarDweller115 on September 19, 2013, 09:12:22 PM
Ennis said he'd been putting the blocks to a woman who worked part-time at the Wolf Ears bar in Signal where he was working now for Stoutamire's cow and calf outfit, but it wasn't going anywhere and she had some problems he didn't want.

I wonder why the screenwriters took this one line and made a character out of her for the movie.  To show that Ennis was fucking women, while Jack would be shown, in the next scene, to be going to Mexico to fuck men?  It blurs the line even more re: Ennis being gay...

This part of the sentence - it wasn't going anywhere and (s)he had some problems he didn't want - could also directly be applied to Jack...   :'(


I believe the character of Cassie was the object of debate a while ago, as to whether or not she actually existed in the original short story, or if she was a lie that Ennis created to make himself appear straight.  As for it blurring the lines of Ennis being gay, I believe that it falls to each viewer and how they feel about it.  I always took it as another sign that Ennis was unwilling to accept his homosexuality, instead of him being bisexual or gay.
Title: Re: Ennis and Cassie Scenes
Post by: B.W. on March 27, 2016, 09:43:51 AM

I believe the character of Cassie was the object of debate a while ago, as to whether or not she actually existed in the original short story, or if she was a lie that Ennis created to make himself appear straight.  As for it blurring the lines of Ennis being gay, I believe that it falls to each viewer and how they feel about it.  I always took it as another sign that Ennis was unwilling to accept his homosexuality, instead of him being bisexual or gay.


I agree. I always saw Cassie as being a way for Ennis to try and deny his true sexuality, of course it didn't work.  I felt sorry for Cassie, she seemed like a genuinely nice young woman.