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Author Topic: All other scenes including truck scenes, Thanksgiving scenes, alley scenes, and other  (Read 318051 times)

Offline pdxbennett

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OHG.  Have you seen the movie? {.....}  I can only hope to experience such love, whatever the circumstances.

I guess I am made of weaker stuff because I would not be able to stand that kind of rejection over and over.   

A couple of "feast" days would never sustain me through the rest of the "famine" year.    
« Last Edit: January 15, 2006, 11:56:19 AM by pdxbennett »

Mr. Wrong

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"Jack should have finally learned.   What he had was basically a "one night stand" that played sporadically for twenty years."

I totally agree with the person who posted the above statement. Jack too way too much emotional abuse from Ennis. I mean how many times can a person stand to be rejected? After a time you would think a thing called dignity or self respect would kick in and he would move on. Sure jack would have been heartbroken but he's heartbroken all the time anyway! A least if he moved on he might have found someone else to ease the pain a bit. This romantic notion that a binding love that brings nothing but pain must be endured or fought for is a crock. But hey, it keeps the makers of Prozac in business! Hmmm, Jack or Ennis on Prozac...now how would that version of the story play out?  ;)

Offline pdxbennett

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"Jack should have finally learned.   What he had was basically a "one night stand" that played sporadically for twenty years."

I totally agree with the person who posted the above statement. Jack too way too much emotional abuse from Ennis. I mean how many times can a person stand to be rejected? After a time you would think a thing called dignity or self respect would kick in and he would move on. Sure jack would have been heartbroken but he's heartbroken all the time anyway! A least if he moved on he might have found someone else to ease the pain a bit. This romantic notion that a binding love that brings nothing but pain must be endured or fought for is a crock. But hey, it keeps the makers of Prozac in business! Hmmm, Jack or Ennis on Prozac...now how would that version of the story play out?  ;)


That was me!    Thank you for posting!   Sometimes I feel so alone in that I don't think love no matter how blazing should be suffered for in the way Jack suffered.  I have been lambasted in the past for expressing this view.    I started out in life much like Ennis and worked my way though Jack.  I learned the hard way that there has to be balance and respect.   Hot high altitude interactions a couple times a year lose their significance given the reality that Jack died at age 39 without ever having the good life he craved.

Offline DaveinPhilly

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To call Ennis's inability to fully commit to Jack's needs abuse seems to me to be way out of line. You're not talking about 2005 in West Hollywood here. I'm only 4 years younger than these characters and I know it was tough in those times. The fact that I escaped this sort of oppression is a gift of grace.

Ennis del Mar was a troubled soul paralyzed by fear and by his real commitments to his children. That he loved Jack is incontrovertible. Didn't you see the "shirts" scene!? My God, give him a break. Like so many other human beings they did have differing levels of tolerance for loneliness and sexual outlets.  Jack was moving on one could suppose, but his faithfulness to Ennis (I'm not talking about one night stands in Mexico or anywhere else) was a supreme act of love. There is nothing of more value, and love doesn't come cheap.
It could be like this, just like this, always...

Mr. Wrong

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You said "Ennis del Mar was a troubled soul paralyzed by fear and by his real commitments to his children"

What's that phrase about if you love something let it go? If Ennis truly loved Jack wouldn't he have done that? I mean there is no question in my mind he knew how his unavailability was hurting Jack. And crying over 2 shirts at the end of the story  does not absolve him. It's real easy for him to show his love now that Jack is dead isn't it?  I mean he really doesn't have to step out of his shell right? He doesn't have to worry about being in a relationship or facing the truth about who he is. how convenient.

Offline konrad

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With Ennis and/or Jack on a low-dose SSRI we would not have much of a story past the first summer.
"-too early in the season to be sick o' beans..."

Offline David

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I guess I am made of weaker stuff because I would not be able to stand that kind of rejection over and over.      

Sometimes I have tried to count (in the movie) how many times directly or indirectly Ennis rejected Jack's idea to live together, or be in close proximity, and I can barely finish...Jack was rejected so many times it was heartbreaking. But given the time, who Ennis was, etc., I do understand.
The huge sadness of the Northern plains rolled down on him.

Offline DaveinPhilly

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You said "Ennis del Mar was a troubled soul paralyzed by fear and by his real commitments to his children"

What's that phrase about if you love something let it go? If Ennis truly loved Jack wouldn't he have done that? I mean there is no question in my mind he knew how his unavailability was hurting Jack. And crying over 2 shirts at the end of the story  does not absolve him. It's real easy for him to show his love now that Jack is dead isn't it?  I mean he really doesn't have to step out of his shell right? He doesn't have to worry about being in a relationship or facing the truth about who he is. how convenient.

Convenient! Do you really think there was anything convenient in Ennis's life. The extreme poverty, lack of education, abusive father, orphaned at a young age, married because he thought it was the only thing one could do, had backbreaking jobs... Where do I stop! This guy suffered from the beginning to the end and Jack's life was no piece of cake (though he was able to get himself into a comfortable financial situation).

Ennis wasn't perfect and neither am I.

As for the "if you love someone let them go" bit it's another version of "love the one you're with if you can't be with the one you love" , that attitude  doesn't work for me. To me love is something so authentic that you can't dismiss it even if it makes your life inconvenient.
It could be like this, just like this, always...

Offline ImEnnisShesJack

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OHG.  Have you seen the movie? {.....}  I can only hope to experience such love, whatever the circumstances.

I guess I am made of weaker stuff because I would not be able to stand that kind of rejection over and over.   

A couple of "feast" days would never sustain me through the rest of the "famine" year.    

It's not easy, Bennett.  It takes all of your strength and all of your love to keep it going.  It's not the kind of relationship for everyone.  And as long as there is hope, you get through it.  It's when it turns bitter that it becomes unbearable.
"And when he shall die,
Take him and cut him out in little stars,
And he will make the face of heaven so fine
That all the world will be in love with night."
~~Heath Ledger 1979-2008~~

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Offline mwiersma

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I guess I am made of weaker stuff because I would not be able to stand that kind of rejection over and over.      

Sometimes I have tried to count (in the movie) how many times directly or indirectly Ennis rejected Jack's idea to live together, or be in close proximity, and I can barely finish...Jack was rejected so many times it was heartbreaking. But given the time, who Ennis was, etc., I do understand.

Evidently I really am the least romantic person on the planet.  If you love someone, you do what you have to do.  Jack asked for more in their relationship, but he never made it a condition, because he probably almost certainly knew Ennis couldn't do it.  Ennis didn't reject Jack as much as he rejected the idea of them setting up shop together and being a couple.  

Yes, Ennis rejected Jack on a number of levels throughout the film.  However, they also had years of tent-shaking, teeth clanking, heart-stopping, deeply-involved sex and tenderness that Jack, no doubt, enjoyed, although it was never enough for him.  Even though it appeared Jack was taking steps to move on, he never let on to Ennis and made no attempt to end the relationship, such as it was.

In our time of cell phones and email, we forget that it wasn't always this way.  Everyone wasn't always at everyone else's fingertips.  

I guess I'm also in the minority with having partners that might not have been willing to make sacrifices for the relationship like I was.  The "Jack" in the partnership has to decide if "unsatisfactory" is better than nothing.  I think for both of them, it was.

Offline pdxbennett

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OHG.  Have you seen the movie? {.....}  I can only hope to experience such love, whatever the circumstances.

I guess I am made of weaker stuff because I would not be able to stand that kind of rejection over and over.   

A couple of "feast" days would never sustain me through the rest of the "famine" year.    

It's not easy, Bennett.  It takes all of your strength and all of your love to keep it going.  It's not the kind of relationship for everyone.  And as long as there is hope, you get through it.  It's when it turns bitter that it becomes unbearable.

I think that was what happened for both of them.  It did turn unbearable and seemed without hope.  Jack did turn to Randall.

To call Ennis's inability to fully commit to Jack's needs abuse seems to me to be way out of line. {...} Ennis del Mar was a troubled soul paralyzed by fear and by his real commitments to his children. That he loved Jack is incontrovertible. {...} Like so many other human beings they did have differing levels of tolerance for loneliness and sexual outlets.  Jack was moving on one could suppose, but his faithfulness to Ennis (.....) was a supreme act of love. There is nothing of more value, and love doesn't come cheap.

I have absolutely no doubt their love was real and straight from the depths of their souls.  I have no doubt that they connected in that rare once in life time kind of way.  However this "abuse" is not only of Jack but of Ennis himself.  He blames Jack for "what" he is and that his life is "nowhere" because of him.  Ennis could not be "joined at the hip" in the way that Jack would have liked.  Not everyone is cut out to be so pasted together but two random weeks a year is not the stuff great love can survive on.  Where does Ennis's responsibility to himself, to Jack and the relationship kick in? Jack has to take responsibility for his choices but Ennis was the one issuing the ultimatums.

Why did it take the death of the relationship and of Jack before Ennis could admit to himself the importance of it all?  Ennis being a troubled soul paralyzed by fear does not give him absolution.  

Mr. Wrong

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You said "As for the "if you love someone let them go" bit it's another version of "love the one you're with if you can't be with the one you love" , that attitude  doesn't work for me. To me love is something so authentic that you can't dismiss it even if it makes your life inconvenient"

But that is exactly what Ennis does! he dismisses his love by using his fears as a crutch! It's more convenient than facing the rebuke of society and family for his "authentic love". Face it Dave! Ennis didn't have the courage to face up to his true nature and his love until AFTER Jack was dead and out of the way! Sure he had a difficult life but he had a real chance for some happiness. He was just too afraid to make the move when it really mattered. So that makes me question which was really the more authentic to Ennis--his love for Jack or his fears?

Mr. Wrong

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"Sometimes I feel so alone in that I don't think love no matter how blazing should be suffered for in the way Jack suffered"


Exactly Pdxbennett! I mean do people still really believe that out of the billions of people on the planet there is only that "one special person" for them?? I mean come on! Jack could have found another Ennis. I mean look at the odds!

Offline 909dot

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"Sometimes I feel so alone in that I don't think love no matter how blazing should be suffered for in the way Jack suffered"


Exactly Pdxbennett! I mean do people still really believe that out of the billions of people on the planet there is only that "one special person" for them?? I mean come on! Jack could have found another Ennis. I mean look at the odds!

I disagree...I think most people settle for someone...what Ennis and Jack had...they not only love each other they were IN love with each other...sure, they could have found someone else...but not another Ennis...or another Jack...

Todd
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Mr. Wrong

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 "disagree...I think most people settle for someone...what Ennis and Jack had...they not only love each other they were IN love with each other...sure, they could have found someone else...but not another Ennis...or another Jack..."

Todd, are you saying that people who settle for someone, if they break up or that someone dies, they will never be in love again? They will never find love again? Come on.