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Author Topic: All other scenes including truck scenes, Thanksgiving scenes, alley scenes, and other  (Read 315688 times)

Offline 909dot

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"disagree...I think most people settle for someone...what Ennis and Jack had...they not only love each other they were IN love with each other...sure, they could have found someone else...but not another Ennis...or another Jack..."

Todd, are you saying that people who settle for someone, if they break up or that someone dies, they will never be in love again? They will never find love again? Come on.

No not at all...Jack and Ennis had found someone with whom to love...there wives...but they were IN love with each other and therefore, could never find that same unmistakable, glorious feeling that they had with each other...I'm hoping Ennis found love again...but it will and could never be Jack...

Todd
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kumari

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"disagree...I think most people settle for someone...what Ennis and Jack had...they not only love each other they were IN love with each other...sure, they could have found someone else...but not another Ennis...or another Jack..."

Todd, are you saying that people who settle for someone, if they break up or that someone dies, they will never be in love again? They will never find love again? Come on.

No not at all...Jack and Ennis had found someone with whom to love...there wives...but they were IN love with each other and therefore, could never find that same unmistakable, glorious feeling that they had with each other...I'm hoping Ennis found love again...but it will and could never be Jack...

Todd

I'm glad that you put it this way. A lot of the critics described the marriages to Alma and Lureen as "loveless."
But I don't think that was entirely true. They loved their wives, just not the way that their vows required them to, especially the forsaking all others, part...oops.

kumari

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jack's relationship with his son is a bit confusing for me. when ennis introduces jack to alma, jack mentions his son and simply says "(he) smiles a lot." it sounds a bit emotionally detached. other than a brief scene with little bobby on jack's lap driving farm machinery, there is little interaction between the two and little exporation of their relationship. meanwhile, ennis' relationship with the girls is a vital part of the film. jacks interaction with lureen's father at thanksgiving seems to be less about standing up defending his role as a father as it is about him standing up defending his manhood. mr. newsome has been mocking jack's masculinity for years and when he does it in front of bobby (by reminding him that real boys should watch football), it is the last straw.

Jack makes it clear in the short story that he did not want children. That does not mean that he didn't love his son, but it is another conflict in Jack's life. The live he wanted vs. reality. It is another way in which this story does not descend into sentimentality. Ennis loves his little girls to pieces, Jack doesn't seem to want much of anything beyond a life with Ennis.

Offline 909dot

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"disagree...I think most people settle for someone...what Ennis and Jack had...they not only love each other they were IN love with each other...sure, they could have found someone else...but not another Ennis...or another Jack..."

Todd, are you saying that people who settle for someone, if they break up or that someone dies, they will never be in love again? They will never find love again? Come on.

No not at all...Jack and Ennis had found someone with whom to love...there wives...but they were IN love with each other and therefore, could never find that same unmistakable, glorious feeling that they had with each other...I'm hoping Ennis found love again...but it will and could never be Jack...

Todd

I'm glad that you put it this way. A lot of the critics described the marriages to Alma and Lureen as "loveless."
But I don't think that was entirely true. They loved their wives, just not the way that their vows required them to, especially the forsaking all others, part...oops.

Yeah...they were definitely unfulfilled marriages...

Todd
"maybe you should get outa there...move someplace different...maybe Texas."

Offline peteinportland

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I wonder if all this very good discussion about should Jack have stayed with Ennis all those years belongs in this particular thread. However, when one looks at those two truck scenes and the message implied in both of them, I think this might be as good of a place as any. There are parallels for almost every scene in this movie, and I think these two definitely parallel one another. In both, Jack is heartbroken and drives away with tears in his eyes.

I also love the look of hope he has in both of these scenes. In the first, he has that very hopeful expression: the eyebrow lift and the line "But I might be back."  In the second, his face is so wide open and hopeful when he utters the line "Well, here I am." In both, it seems so much like it is Jack's hope up against Ennis' fear. And as so often happens in our lives, fear wins out over everything else, including love. It is also telling that during the first scene Ennis uses Alma as an excuse and in the second he uses his daughters as an excuse. There is always an excuse to cover up his fear.

Personally, MY hope is that Jack kept on for so long because, like most romantics, he felt that love has to win out over fear in the end. We see that when he says in the second truck scene "All right. I'll see you next month, then." He is signalling that he will not give up, that he will continue to hope and will continue to love.  


Offline ottoblom

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Mr. Wrong

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"Personally, MY hope is that Jack kept on for so long because, like most romantics, he felt that love has to win out over fear in the end. We see that when he says in the second truck scene "All right. I'll see you next month, then." He is signalling that he will not give up, that he will continue to hope and will continue to love.  "

Peter, and how did that work out for him? Jack was in an emotionally abusive relationship and like most victims he learned to play his part very well. That's what he's signaling when he says "I'll see you next month" He's saying I'm too weak to break it off so I'll be back for more pain. that's not romantic. that's tragic.

Offline lovebbm

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Wow, interesting perspective, Mr. W. 

I can't say I disagree with you.

(this is one of the things so wonderful about this film... so many layers of complexity and interpretation... )

I had a relationship in which my romantic partner was emotionally distant and unable to commit to the relationship, as much as he might have liked to.  I felt an emotional wreck much of the time, but I was madly in love with him, trying hard to see hope, keep trying, etc.  We even had a hard break up (initiated by me) and then a year apart and then tried again for another year.  Same result.  I finally figured out (deep, in my gut, not just my head) that he wasn't going to change, wasn't going to give me what I needed.  It was the hardest thing I did but for my own good I cut off all contact with him.  It's been over a year and I do feel nearly 'over it'. Was hard though.

So in some ways, I feel like, yeah, Jack could have, maybe even should have, mustered the courage to break it off.  In some ways he would have been doing both of them a favor.  Obviously he either couldn't or wouldn't...wondering which of these it really was...

Offline DaveinPhilly

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Gee Whiz, Mr Wrong, you must be some strong fella... As for the rest of the world, we do have weaknesses and live with them. If we're imobilised by fear, maybe, by the grace of God we can overcome it, but not always.

Then again, each of us has our  limit as to how far to go in a trying situation.

Let be, Let be...
It could be like this, just like this, always...

Offline peteinportland

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That is an interesting perspective Mr, and one I think has some validity. I do have some thoughts in reply, but I am off to work and will have to wait until after the Globes tonight to make a reply!

Offline Constans

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The 'divorce' truck scene was, for me, by far the best of the MacMurtry/Ossana invented scenes.  It had to be there, since it described a crucial development in Jack and Ennis's relationship, yet the original story only included it as a seemingly throwaway remark near the end, when so much else is happening.  They realised it and integrated it into the film's story-line perfectly and it made for one of Jake Gyllenhaal's best moments, lurching from 'King of the Road' elation to devastation.  It was also unusual in coming from Jack's perspective, since overall the movie took Ennis's - fair enough since the story was written that way and fidelity to the souce was (quite rightly) paramount.  To my mind, along with the 'Reunion' scene, it virtually bookended a crucial part of the story, as marking the honeymoon period of their post-Brokeback relationship: Ennis's excitment being fulfilled in the earlier scene then Jack's destroyed in this one.

The discussion about the Jack/Ennis relationship here has been interesting and it does seem that Jack's disillusionment was real, though it did take a few more years to finally surge through, with a crash, during the final encounter between them.  I think this is what we see in the contrast between the two images of Gyllenhaal's face when he gazes at the departing Ennis - adoringly in the perfect flashback, but haunted and desperate in the later image that immediately follows it.  Jack has made a decision, and soon afterwards, when visiting his parents, he mentions a new candidate for moving up with him.  Tragically, pursuing this may have led to his death.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2006, 11:03:57 AM by Constans »

Offline jim ...

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But that is exactly what Ennis does! he dismisses his love by using his fears as a crutch! It's more convenient than facing the rebuke of society and family for his "authentic love". Face it Dave! Ennis didn't have the courage to face up to his true nature and his love until AFTER Jack was dead and out of the way! Sure he had a difficult life but he had a real chance for some happiness. He was just too afraid to make the move when it really mattered. So that makes me question which was really the more authentic to Ennis--his love for Jack or his fears?

... can't they both be authentic?  Fear and love are both very strong emotions.  It's often easy to say someone was weak ... or should have done this or that. Step into Ennis' shoes ... live his life and then see how you feel.  You mention that Ennis couldn't face up to his love for Jack until after Jack's death.  I think there were numerous times that Ennis' love for Jack showed before Jack's death.  He knew he was in love but just couldn't live together.   We are all "victims" of our past ... our experiences.  We live our lives in accordance with that and we are only able to do what we can .... in that very moment.  I think Ennis did the very best "he" could ... and I could never fault him for that!

Offline ottoblom

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"Personally, MY hope is that Jack kept on for so long because, like most romantics, he felt that love has to win out over fear in the end. We see that when he says in the second truck scene "All right. I'll see you next month, then." He is signalling that he will not give up, that he will continue to hope and will continue to love.  "

Peter, and how did that work out for him? Jack was in an emotionally abusive relationship and like most victims he learned to play his part very well. That's what he's signaling when he says "I'll see you next month" He's saying I'm too weak to break it off so I'll be back for more pain. that's not romantic. that's tragic.

As people have commented earlier, it worked out for him in that he had twenty years spending time every year in beautiful places with the one person in the world who made him truly happy.  Some of us envy him that, "emotional abuse" or no.

Offline leopoldo

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Man, I wish we could have contextual awareness and not see this through our urbane, global 21st century world view. The very fact that we're online, in a forum, indicates something about us: that we are mobile in ways that Ennis never could be. That's the significance of the truck scenes - Jack does have those other options in his socially climbable world and can be 'king of the road', even if it's idealism rather than truth. He can leave Ennis; and I think is close to it near the end of the film. The fact that it takes so long is not tantamount to his victim status in an abusive relationship (spare the psychobabble, please!) but his love. In contrast, Ennis only travels round a coffee pot. He's the fixed flame and Jack is the mobile moth.

Love can strike us - it's a distillation of chance, mood, personality - and never hit us as hard as that again, and whether that's because of nature or romantic sensibility doesn't matter two hoots. Jack and Ennis's love is distilled from that pre-lapsarian world of Brokeback - a world they can only stare across to once they've left it and never recapture. No wonder they are drawn back to each other so strongly.

Watch that kiss four years on and tell me it isn't love.

Mr. Wrong

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"As people have commented earlier, it worked out for him in that he had twenty years spending time every year in beautiful places with the one person in the world who made him truly happy.  Some of us envy him that, "emotional abuse" or no."


OK, so as long as I show someone love and a wonderful time once or twice a year I can abuse them and that will be OK, right? I mean I may beat the hell out of him or abuse him emotionally  but at least I took him to the mountains! I can't believe how some people are so willing to give a  lover a "free pass" to abuse them as long as it is interspersed with a few good times. Truly amazing.