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Author Topic: All other scenes including truck scenes, Thanksgiving scenes, alley scenes, and other  (Read 317744 times)

Offline leopoldo

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Where's the evidence for Ennis abusing Jack emotionally? And other than that one punch, where's the evidence for violence? You're seeing a mountain where there's a molehill methinks. Ennis isn't abusive; he IS inarticulate.

Mr. Wrong

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"Where's the evidence for Ennis abusing Jack emotionally? And other than that one punch, where's the evidence for violence? You're seeing a mountain where there's a molehill methinks. Ennis isn't abusive; he IS inarticulate."

I'd call 20 years of rejection or stringing someone along when you know you can't commit abuse.  pull you in, cut you loose, pull you in, cut you loose. Or more plainly, love you, reject you, love you , reject you. We see the toll it takes on Jack through the years. pretty sad.

Offline leopoldo

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Okay - well either I'm a romantic idealist or you are - relationships are never pragmatic, open, straightforward to interpret - they are always messy and partial. Abuse is a strong word, my friend, for a failure to know yourself... I'm startled by anyone who can't sympathise (even if empathy is outside their domain) for Ennis whilst they also sympathise with Jack (and of course all three women too). The film I hope, for most of us at least, challenges the reductionist (and Hollywood!) belief that good relationships become straightforward and life should be about minimising pain.

Offline scot5636

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Actually, we know that Jack was a little more caught up in his son's welfare than Lurene.  The scene when Jack's looking for his blue parka, he asks Lurene if she's called Bobby's school to get a tutor for him.  Lurene clearly hasn't even thought about it.  But Jack has apparently complained to the school so much, that they don't like him.  And in the short story, Jack mentions his concern about Bobby's dyslexia to Ennis.

But, juxtapose that image with his absolute willingness to abandon all of it if Ennis will just give him the green light. 

Offline sasrah

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I had a relationship in which my romantic partner was emotionally distant and unable to commit to the relationship, as much as he might have liked to.  I felt an emotional wreck much of the time, but I was madly in love with him, trying hard to see hope, keep trying, etc.  We even had a hard break up (initiated by me) and then a year apart and then tried again for another year.  Same result.  I finally figured out (deep, in my gut, not just my head) that he wasn't going to change, wasn't going to give me what I needed.  It was the hardest thing I did but for my own good I cut off all contact with him.  It's been over a year and I do feel nearly 'over it'. Was hard though.

Sounds familiar.

Many years ago I tumbled into a very intense relationship with a rather closed-off person. I wasn't even fortunate enough to see him that often. At one point I went two years without seeing him. Our own "infrequent couplings" were enough to keep a fire burning in my heart that one day we would truly be together. I purposely ignored all the obstacles and warning signs and like a pathetic cowering dog I crawled back every time he snapped his fingers. The final time I saw him I drove from Michigan to Las Vegas via San Francisco. It was the moment I had been anticipating for two years. Unfortunately our "relationship" imploded and after three days I left LV in a teary haze. I never saw him again. It was a few more months before I gave up all hope that he would ever welcome me like I wished for. Closing that chapter of my life was extraordinarily painful but it was something that had to be done. I didn't even have 20 years with my sometime lover like Jack and Ennis. I only had three.

Attraction makes people do strange things. Yes, I kept offering myself up like a sacrificial lamb when I knew deep down that I was mostly being used. I just kept going back, and back, and back for more...hoping that maybe, just one of those times, the object of my affection would love me in return.

Because of this I can understand why Jack would stay with Ennis for that long.

-sasrah

Offline HunterPDX

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The first truck scene played out like I would have expected.  How many of us (especially in the younger years) have been carried to the mountain on the wings of wishful possibility only to have it collapse into a deep sink hole by cold hard reality.  Some connections no matter how intense and emotionally charged are just not the stuff of long term relationships.

The other truck scene is quite differant.  Ennis initiated contact.  Most likely this was the first and only time he had done this.  He had to know how Jack would react.  Ennis treated him so shabbily and disrespectful.  The "King of the Road" should have finally realized that Ennis would never be capable of anything more and moved on to find the kind of happiness that he needed with someone else.    Ending up in Mexico could not have been much of a joy despite the carnal release it provided.   

Jack should have finally learned.   What he had was basically a "one night stand" that played sporadically for twenty years.

I think Jack finally *does* learn.  He eventually hooks up with Randall, right?  There is a lot of reading between the lines in Jack's relationship with him, but it's pretty clear that Jack finally told his folks about someone other than Ennis del Mar. 
« Last Edit: January 16, 2006, 03:43:54 PM by HunterPDX »

Offline michaelflanagansf

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There's something in the Ennis/Alma family Thanksgiving scene that confuses me: On television there is a skating competition - and in the credits there is a credit for the 1980 Canada Pairs competition (in the Olympics).  Yet in the 'Story to Screenplay' it is supposed to occur in 1978.  Have I missed something or misattributed what is on TV there?  In the Twist thanksgiving it is pretty clearly Thanksgiving 1977 as the announcer on the television Bobby is watching refers to the top defensive player of 1977.  Help.
I do my thing, & you do your thing. I am not in this world to live up to your expectations, and you are not in this world to live up to mine. You are you and I am I, and if by chance we find each other - it is beautiful. If not it can't be helped.

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Offline ottoblom

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Okay - well either I'm a romantic idealist or you are - relationships are never pragmatic, open, straightforward to interpret - they are always messy and partial. Abuse is a strong word, my friend, for a failure to know yourself... I'm startled by anyone who can't sympathise (even if empathy is outside their domain) for Ennis whilst they also sympathise with Jack (and of course all three women too). The film I hope, for most of us at least, challenges the reductionist (and Hollywood!) belief that good relationships become straightforward and life should be about minimising pain.

I'm with you 100%.  I don't like people jumping all over Ennis.  I don't see him as an "abuser" anymore than I see Jack as a "predator."  Ennis barely had a life cause he'd sacrificed everything for his brief times with Jack.  I do wish we saw a little bit more of the Ennis in the story, who at least would say something positive from time to time.  As it is, what he have, and probably what Jack had, was the Ennis on Brokeback Mountain--who was strong and generous.

Offline jim ...

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can one ever be totally objective when circumstances center around feelings from the heart?

Offline Scott88

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Quote
I'd call 20 years of rejection or stringing someone along when you know you can't commit abuse.

But Ennis was *very clear* that he could not commit in the way Jack wished him to.  It wasn't a secret which he used to string Jack along.  Jack hoped for a better outcome, but he knew the deal. 

Ennis was inarticulate and emotionally inaccessible, and, yes, he clearly was unable to commit fully to his relationship with Jack (as Jack so deserved).  But emotionally abusive?  No.  At least not in the knowing, purposeful sense that you're implying.

Offline ottoblom

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Wrong wrote: "I'd call 20 years of rejection or stringing someone along when you know you can't commit abuse.  pull you in, cut you loose, pull you in, cut you loose. Or more plainly, love you, reject you, love you , reject you. We see the toll it takes on Jack through the years. pretty sad."

 I don't think he was stringing Jack along.  And I don't think he was rejecting him either. Ennis sacrificed to be with Jack.  But there was never a hint that he was going to give more.  Sure, Jack hoped for more. And he suffered because he didn't get it.  THey both did.  I think when you use language like "when you know you can't commit," you're not describing Ennis.  THat's not the way his mind worked.  I think you'd act differently in Jack's shoes.  More power to you. But in the fictional story, it is perfectly believable to me that Jack stuck around all those years. He had hope.  But I think in that final look of the older Jack as Ennis drives away we can see that his hope has finally died.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2006, 02:39:53 PM by ottoblom »

Offline marius

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can one ever be totally objective when circumstances center around feelings from the heart?
I don't quite understand all this anger toward Ennis.
It's alright to say that Jack has got his tough time with Ennis by being "rejected". Yet rejection seems to be arguable in this impossible relationship.
I like to think both of them are struggling the best they could to keep their relationship alive.
When Ennis said "if you can't fix if...", it's exactly the way this couple is going to work their way out.
Let's face it:
Ennis has always wanted children and it's why he is torn apart between his responsibility to wards her girls and his love for Jack. And I think we can see he was not rejecting Jack on the second truck scene.
He was just torn apart between his desire and his duty.
How can anyone forget the first ever heartbreaking scene of this film when Ennis turn into that alley street, when his pain was so strong to see Jack driving away, that he actually felt sick. So sick that he could not stand, a strong big man like him! There is no word to express my sadness whenever I recall this. His initial indifference to let Jack go after their summer job is just part of his self discovering. And he did tell Jack that it took him more than a year to realize what really happened on that day. But then it was all too late by then.
From these and many other points I fell that Ennis is like some of you said a very inarticulate person trapped and haunted by the memory of the dead man he saw when he was a child. Without help, he will never be able to give Jack more than he could. And if anyone feels that it's always too little and too late, then I suggest you to think again. And unless you have experienced the same level of desperation, I cannot see how you can be so negative about either of these tortured souls.

marius

Offline bookgirl

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Something I've been thinking about since the first time I saw Brokeback (I'm up to five times now and am going again tomorrow!).  When Alma and Ennis are in the kitchen and she starts to talk to him about getting married again, Ennis' reply is a flippant "Once bitten...".   I took this to mean he blamed Alma for the dissolution of their marriage, maybe because she wasn't the one he really wanted (which was, of course, Jack).  IMO, this is what triggered Alma's release of anger and rage that she had been holding back for years. 

Does anyone else feel that if Alma hadn't exploded, letting Ennis know that she knew the real reason behind the "fishing trips", that Ennis eventually might have been more open to Jack's suggestion of a life together?  That one moment solidified, at least to me, in the mind of Ennis his greatest fear: that people could "see" his desire for Jack and therefore he was risking his life and Jack's by being together. 

Just a thought.

Offline brokebackLJ

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Five times, girl? "Once Burned..."

listen more closely. Although, I know you think you hear "Once bitten, twice shy.."
It's also been "Once burned, twice shy.." aswell.

I think either way, Alma would've let it come out sometime.
And I don't think Ennis would've changed much...

Offline DaveinPhilly

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I thought Ennis said to Jack "next month then..."  I don't call that a rejection. He hadn't sent the usual message let's go fishing or anything. Jack took it upon himself to drive 1200 miles in the hopes of spending the time together. He was too fast on the draw this time.
Still it was heartbreaking...
It could be like this, just like this, always...