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Author Topic: At Jack's Parents  (Read 370029 times)

Offline shonuff07

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Re: Scene: At Jack's Parents
« Reply #60 on: January 16, 2006, 11:55:57 PM »
  I think Jack loved to dream he could have a good relationship with his father and was hopeful every time he visited, but probably could take no more than a week at a time, and reality set in.  Gosh, just realized this is starting to sound like Jack and Ennis....



                             Great correlation.........but a week with Ennis is too little, & a week with Daddy Twist is too much.......
Always looking for the quiet, tough, brooding, man to take a real intrest in him ( Daddy or Ennis ) complete and fill this empty hole of acceptance and love that is what a son is owed....never got it.......Ennis never came to see Jack either.....Jack never really got what he needed from either of them.......but he continued trying with both of them......till the end
" Do I look like I can afford a roping horse ? "

Offline wjp58

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Re: Scene: At Jack's Parents
« Reply #61 on: January 17, 2006, 02:44:31 PM »
Help me understand this line in the book:

At Jack's parents, after his father recounts how Jack had "another one" he was gonna bring up there --

"So now he knew it was the tire iron."
"There was some open space between what he knew and what he tried to believe..."

Offline 3m

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Re: Scene: At Jack's Parents
« Reply #62 on: January 17, 2006, 03:39:21 PM »
Hi all,

I'm loving these post, even though I've not gone through them all yet.

My question: When Ennis goes up to the bedroom he picks up the toy cowboy from the desk. Wasn't there an earlier scene, on the mountain, with one of them in the tent (I can't remember which one, Ennis I think - I've only seen the movie twice) carving what looks like a horse and rider?

Offline shonuff07

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Re: Scene: At Jack's Parents
« Reply #63 on: January 17, 2006, 04:11:30 PM »


               It was Ennis who was carving the horse & rider figurine....I do not know if this one on Jack's desk is the one Ennis would eventually have finished,,,but I did notice how it made Ennis' face grimace ( maybe only because it reminded him of Rodeo Jack ) as if maybe he had given it to him......But, maybe not.......Saw that the 3rd time.
" Do I look like I can afford a roping horse ? "

Offline sapstar

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Re: Scene: At Jack's Parents
« Reply #64 on: January 17, 2006, 04:56:41 PM »
Help me understand this line in the book:

At Jack's parents, after his father recounts how Jack had "another one" he was gonna bring up there --

"So now he knew it was the tire iron."


Ah...  wjp.....  another excellent example of what I was telling you earlier....  another "hole" in the story for you to fill with your own life experience...

Offline wjp58

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Re: Scene: At Jack's Parents
« Reply #65 on: January 17, 2006, 06:13:56 PM »
Help me understand this line in the book:

At Jack's parents, after his father recounts how Jack had "another one" he was gonna bring up there --

"So now he knew it was the tire iron."


Ah...  wjp.....  another excellent example of what I was telling you earlier....  another "hole" in the story for you to fill with your own life experience...


JP, you're probably right.  But then again it can't hurt to ask.

The whole "open space between what he knew and what he tried to believe" line probably comes into play here.  And all of us readers are invited to examine our own "open spaces".
"There was some open space between what he knew and what he tried to believe..."

Offline sarah

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Re: Scene: At Jack's Parents
« Reply #66 on: January 18, 2006, 08:00:38 AM »
Does anyone think that reference to the abusive way that Jack's father treated him  :'(( the bathroom incident when Jack was 3 or 4, included in the book)  should've been brought into this movie scene (as in a flashback  either of the event or of a conversation between Jack and Ennis -- as in the  story?
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Offline wjp58

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Re: Scene: At Jack's Parents
« Reply #67 on: January 18, 2006, 08:58:55 AM »
Does anyone think that reference to the abusive way that Jack's father treated him  :'(( the bathroom incident when Jack was 3 or 4, included in the book)  should've been brought into this movie scene (as in a flashback  either of the event or of a conversation between Jack and Ennis -- as in the  story?

I posted something about this on the "What you didn't like ..." thread.  Not the fact that it wasn't included.  I can see the difficulties.  At what point in the movie would you insert this scene?  The thing I find troubling about the scene in the book is that it seems that, of this whole traumatic experience, what seems to be most traumatic, or at least most memorable, is Jack's discovery that his father had "extra material."
"There was some open space between what he knew and what he tried to believe..."

Offline Dal

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Re: Scene: At Jack's Parents
« Reply #68 on: January 18, 2006, 09:24:12 AM »
Does anyone think that reference to the abusive way that Jack's father treated him  :'(( the bathroom incident when Jack was 3 or 4, included in the book)  should've been brought into this movie scene (as in a flashback  either of the event or of a conversation between Jack and Ennis -- as in the  story?

I think the film did need a scene showing Pa Twist brutalizing Jack as a child, but not so graphic, and no urine.   You get a strong sense of the emotional deprivation of Jack's home, from his early comments about "Dad never came to see me ride" etc, and later during Ennis' visit; but a shot of Jackie getting knocked over for a childish fumble would  have made a strong image, and Lee makes his points in those images, right?  Guess Ossana/McMurtry thought the scene unnecessary...

Poor little Jack!  "...for he always loved a little dog."  The tractor scene "No hands."  Great.

Dal
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Offline DaveL

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Re: Scene: At Jack's Parents
« Reply #69 on: January 18, 2006, 01:19:08 PM »
Sarah, actually the "bathroom" incident in the book is one the NYer editors might have omitted rather than the 2 italicized paragraphs in the later edition.  It really doesn't "explain" very much (but it is an analog to E being taught the lesson to sucker punch himself out of difficult situations), and seems a part of a larger canvas, a longer version, approaching "novella" length, that probably should have been abandoned.  Ang Lee felt it impossible to fit in and disruptive to the narrative flow.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2006, 01:32:22 PM by DaveL »
"Ennis del Mar wakes before five....The shirts hanging on a nail shudder slightly in the draft..It could be bad on the highway with the horsetrailer.He has to be packed and away from the place that morning...The wind strikes the trailer like a load of dirt coming off a dump truck, eases, dies...."

Offline DaveL

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Re: Scene: At Jack's Parents
« Reply #70 on: January 18, 2006, 01:31:04 PM »
Dal, I don't know if it has been made explicit here before, perhaps because it is so obvious, but the father in J's case is rejecting and distant because he senses J's basic orientation and can't accept it. This has to go back to early childhood.   That is a well known phenomenon.

Notwithstanding  that, J is a faithful son, far more so than most.  This quality is not limited to his treatment of the parents; as I have stated, and as several posters have disagreed pointedly, he is also faithful to E during the 17 years.
"Ennis del Mar wakes before five....The shirts hanging on a nail shudder slightly in the draft..It could be bad on the highway with the horsetrailer.He has to be packed and away from the place that morning...The wind strikes the trailer like a load of dirt coming off a dump truck, eases, dies...."

Offline huntinbuddy

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Re: Scene: At Jack's Parents
« Reply #71 on: January 18, 2006, 04:25:16 PM »
Maybe it has been mentioned in the thread already, and I just overlooked it, but don't think so......when Jack's mother says to Ennis, to the effect "I have kept Jack's room just the way it was since he was a child, you are free to go up and look..."   Well, we know that from the story line that Jack has been back to Lightning Flat to help his dad out, because the shirts are there in the closet.  But before that scene, with the shirts in the closet, when Ennis first walks into the room, he picks up on the little desk, a wooden carved figure of a cowboy on a horse.  If you recall, back at the first summer together on BBM, while Jack was on the ridge watching the sheep, Ennis is in the base camp tent, and it is raining, and he is carving a little wooden horse.  If I recall correctly, it was just a horse, with no rider yet.   Could this be the same figure that Ennis working on that summer that he may have give Jack at some point in time that first summer....and it made it back to Lightning Flat along with the shirts?  Just a thought.
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Offline shonuff07

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Re: Scene: At Jack's Parents
« Reply #72 on: January 18, 2006, 06:19:14 PM »
Ennis is in the base camp tent, and it is raining, and he is carving a little wooden horse.  If I recall correctly, it was just a horse, with no rider yet.   Could this be the same figure that Ennis working on that summer that he may have give Jack at some point in time that first summer....and it made it back to Lightning Flat along with the shirts?  Just a thought.
                    I saw and recalled the wooden horse carving the 3rd time I saw it....you can see the way Ennis' face frowns sentimentally when he picks it up.......in a room with so little....the value of this ( possible ) gift from Ennis' to Jack would have great value. Of course, it could just be a boys toy having nothing to do with Ennis...But, it certainly had me thinking what you were thinking Charlieh.
" Do I look like I can afford a roping horse ? "

Offline trcarr

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Re: Scene: At Jack's Parents
« Reply #73 on: January 18, 2006, 08:53:36 PM »
Ennis' discovery of the shirts also provides a splendid cinematic example of how "less is more."  The conventional directorial approach would interject a momentary flashback to the rough-play on the mountain some 19 years before when the fabric got bloodied or how Jack discreetly swiped Ennis' shirt.   (Gotta remind the audience!)

But Lee creates a rising, uninterrupted line of dramatic tension by avoiding the typical -- instead relying on the viewer to recall, deduce, and then grasp the monumental significance of those shirts.

It's the perfect setup for the even more gut-wrenching final scene where we learn (without explicitly seeing) that Ennis had switched their relative positions on the hanger.

In those scenes, a further masterstroke of symbolism that truly resonates with any gay person: The CLOSET.

I have to wonder how many of those subtleties fly right over the heads of the casual viewer.




Offline DaveL

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Re: Scene: At Jack's Parents
« Reply #74 on: January 18, 2006, 10:27:00 PM »
trcarr, "less is more" is truly engrained in the author's technique.  Recall the recessed hiding place is in the north end of the closet, and the ranch itself, nr. Lightning Flat, is on the extreme north border of WY.  This correlates to the dualities of (to name but a few and leave some for others to discuss) cold/warmth, north/south, the intrusion of the elements upon the protagonists' brief time together, the fact that the shirts "shudder" in the cold draft on the day of Ennis' expulsion from the ranch at the end of the story.  Etc.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2006, 10:32:29 PM by DaveL »
"Ennis del Mar wakes before five....The shirts hanging on a nail shudder slightly in the draft..It could be bad on the highway with the horsetrailer.He has to be packed and away from the place that morning...The wind strikes the trailer like a load of dirt coming off a dump truck, eases, dies...."