The Ultimate Brokeback Forum

Author Topic: MTF? FTM? WTF? Everything you wanted to know about Transgender but were afraid  (Read 112798 times)

Offline ImEnnisShesJack

  • Obsessed
  • *****
  • Posts: 4347
Wow!  You guys have really started a lively and informative discussion.  At Heidi's request I added some information in the initial post here:

 http://davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=12710.msg451911#msg451911

Thanks, Esteban!!
"And when he shall die,
Take him and cut him out in little stars,
And he will make the face of heaven so fine
That all the world will be in love with night."
~~Heath Ledger 1979-2008~~

Carol8159@yahoo.com

Offline Sid401k

  • Slash Archivist
  • Obsessed
  • *****
  • Posts: 4111
  • Can't believe I left my damn heart up there...
    • Sid's Place (LJ)
Re: MTF? FTM? WTF? Everything you ever wanted to know about Transgender but w
« Reply #61 on: September 07, 2006, 09:16:31 PM »
This thread is great! Thanks for all the honest posts.

Sid, forgive my prying (and tell me to get stuffed if appropriate) but have you had
surgery? And are you sexually attracted to other men?

The scope of human sexuality and gender is amazing.

Rick

No surgery.  None at all.  I keep thinking that someday I'll get the top done (breast reduction), but every time I've got the money in hand, there's something else that I want even more:  computer school, month-long trip to Alaska, home ownership (condo), kitchen re-do, trip to Europe with best friend, home ownership (house)...  I'm probably PPO (permanently pre-op).

Regarding sexual attraction, I am an equal opportunity lover.  I know that most people restrict their sexual/romantic feelings exclusively (or mostly so) to one sex.  Choosing a lover based on what seems to me to be a minor difference in plumbing makes about as much sense to me as choosing a lover based on hair color.  Although there are people who do that, too.   ;)

Offline Sid401k

  • Slash Archivist
  • Obsessed
  • *****
  • Posts: 4111
  • Can't believe I left my damn heart up there...
    • Sid's Place (LJ)
Re: MTF? FTM? WTF? Everything you ever wanted to know about Transgender but w
« Reply #62 on: September 07, 2006, 09:57:36 PM »
Please won't you explain a bit more what you mean by saying ' a real transsexual', Sid?
Actual book title:  Real Men Don't Eat Quiche
Actual book title:  Real Women Don't Pump Gas

So what about someone who eats quiche and pumps gas?  Do they just shimmer into non-existence?

C.S.Lewis wrote that people have two uses of the word "real" that are actually diametrically opposed to each other.  I wish I could give you an accurate quote, but this was the sense of it:  They will say of some great spiritual experience, "Oh, but all that really happened is that you heard some music in a church."  They've stripped away all the emotions and feelings, and reduced it to the mere physical facts.  Then they will say, "It's all very well talking about the high dive when you're sitting here in an armchair, but wait until you get up there on the board and you'll see what it's really like."  And here they say that the bare physical bones of the experience (which you can easiliy grasp, sitting in your armchair) is not enough for understanding--you need all the impressions and feelings that go with the actual experience.

So what's a "Real Man" or a "Real Woman?"  Damned if I know.  But I did know that I had spent too much time being fake:  doing what a Real Woman was supposed to do, rather than what I wanted to do.  Spending my life (to that point) being unable to trust my inner gut feelings about something as basic as which sex I belonged to did not do a thing to increase my self-confidence.  So I decided that I wanted to stop being fake, and start being real.  But that didn't include spending the next 30 years examining my every wish and desire to be sure it measured up to the Real Man criteria.  I wanted to try being myself, whatever that might include.  Ordinary woman, normal woman, ordinary man, normal man--these were not options that were available to me.  I wasn't a Real Woman--Real Women don't have an inner conviction that there is a penis buried somewhere in their abdomen, and that at the very next x-ray, it will be seen, and then brought to light, and they would say, "I knew it all along!"  Could I be a Real Man?  Does a Real Man have 28 years of memories of living as female?  Has he tended himself through approximately 200 periods?  Does he know what labor feels like?  Did he take Home Ec in high school?  And so that's why I decided that I was going to be a Real Transsexual.

I hope that rather long-winded discussion helps some.

Quote
And when you say you 'came out', what exactly did that mean? Come out as a FTM wannabe or as a gay man in a woman's body or what?
Ah, the good question!  "When did you change, Sid?"  Well, you saw the timetable back on page one.  Where to I point to and say, "Right there!"  It's a process--a journey as much as a destination.  And what an interesting journey!  But I digress.

In the summer of my 29th birthday, I had been reading books and articles, and thinking hard and honestly about my life, and I came to the conclusion that, yes, I believed I was male (which made me FTM TS).  Along with this, I had to face the fact that I had a strong sexual attraction for men that I had been acting on for my entire adult life.  (I also had an attraction to women, but I had never done anything about it at that point.  Didn't feel equipped to satisfy a woman.  {Yes, I know, and I knew then, too, but that's still what I felt.})  Well, I dithered and agonized, and finally decided to put the whole thing on the shelf for 3-5 years, and see how I felt at the end of that period.  If I still felt the same, I thought, I should probably "do something about it."  But as soon as I made that decision, I had the sickening recollection that I had made that exact same decision before--more than once.

So in September of 1978, I acknowledged to myself that this thing was not going to go away.  That, whatever I did about it, I would believe forever that I was really a guy.  That's what I call my "coming out."  I told my shrink, I told my husband, I told my mother.  But the real coming out for me was facing it myself.

Quote
Sorry if any of this is intrusive, it's just that I've so many of these questions free-floating in the back of my head for such a long time! But they were such off-limits, terrible kinds of thoughts, so off-the-wall, so twisted (I thought!) that I never dreamed I'd ever have the opportunity to actually acknowledge them outside my own head, let alone ask them of anyone!!

I know exactly what you mean by "off-limits, terrible kinds of thoughts, so off-the-wall, so twisted."  That was I felt about this strange conviction that, under it all, I was a gay man.

Offline Sid401k

  • Slash Archivist
  • Obsessed
  • *****
  • Posts: 4111
  • Can't believe I left my damn heart up there...
    • Sid's Place (LJ)
Max, you've had a rocky road to travel, and you've been pretty much alone on it.

One of the things that really rings in me about BBM is the sense of isolation these two men (and so many other gay people of those times, and even these times) had to endure.  I know that sense of isolation.  I never believed that anyone could possibly accept me as what I was.  Gay (lesbian) I could probably manage.  Transsexual, harder, but still possible.  Both?  They'd come for me with the butterfly nets!  Hell, I only accepted myself because I had no other real choice.

You know that isolation far better than I do.  I hope that you will find friendship and support though this forum generally and this thread in particular.  Post to me here on thread, or PM me.  You are a unique, worthwhile person, and you deserve a good and happy life.

Offline Sid401k

  • Slash Archivist
  • Obsessed
  • *****
  • Posts: 4111
  • Can't believe I left my damn heart up there...
    • Sid's Place (LJ)
Re: MTF? FTM? WTF? Everything you ever wanted to know about Transgender but w
« Reply #64 on: September 07, 2006, 10:15:30 PM »
Does everybody frequently gender switch in dreams, do you think?  And if not, what does it mean, if anything?
Fascinating question!  I'd love to hear everybody's answer.  I'll give you mine, anyway.  I used to occasionally dream of myself as a "normal" male.  But that was very rare--maybe three or four dreams in my life.  The rest of the time my body in my dreams is the same body of my waking life.

Offline planetgal471

  • Mistress of Metaphor
  • Obsessed
  • *****
  • Posts: 10813
  • Race the Burning Sun
    • The Sacred Realm
Re: MTF? FTM? WTF? Everything you ever wanted to know about Transgender but w
« Reply #65 on: September 07, 2006, 10:32:08 PM »
Well, I dithered and agonized, and finally decided to put the whole thing on the shelf for 3-5 years, and see how I felt at the end of that period.  If I still felt the same, I thought, I should probably "do something about it."  But as soon as I made that decision, I had the sickening recollection that I had made that exact same decision before--more than once.

Well, holy cannoli, I just made that decision last week, to put it on a shelf and try to get other things in my life figured out before I can really (now I don't like the word, hehe) address that thing, because it's too big and scarey for me. I decided that in an undecided amount of time, when I had grown enough to handle it, I'd tackle it again. I don't even know what to think, because I guess I'd secretly been hoping it would evaporate off that shelf, and you just squished some hope I had of, er... becoming a real woman accidentally one day? Er. That sounds stupid, but if I'm honest, it's what I was am was am? hoping for.
"Speak what you think today in words as hard as cannonballs and tomorrow speak what tomorrow thinks in hard words again, though it contradict every thing you said today." ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson, Self Reliance

Offline planetgal471

  • Mistress of Metaphor
  • Obsessed
  • *****
  • Posts: 10813
  • Race the Burning Sun
    • The Sacred Realm
Re: MTF? FTM? WTF? Everything you ever wanted to know about Transgender but w
« Reply #66 on: September 07, 2006, 10:35:39 PM »
Does everybody frequently gender switch in dreams, do you think?  And if not, what does it mean, if anything?

Most of the time I'm sort of androgynous in my dreams. Like my floating soul with no body attached. Prior to puberty I was always male. Now, if I'm not simply the essence of myself, I'm female.
"Speak what you think today in words as hard as cannonballs and tomorrow speak what tomorrow thinks in hard words again, though it contradict every thing you said today." ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson, Self Reliance

Offline michaelflanagansf

  • Forum Librarian and buckle bunny
  • Team Cullen
  • Obsessed
  • *****
  • Posts: 25020
Re: MTF? FTM? WTF? Everything you ever wanted to know about Transgender but w
« Reply #67 on: September 07, 2006, 10:46:31 PM »
Does everybody frequently gender switch in dreams, do you think?  And if not, what does it mean, if anything?

For me I've dreamed of myself as being genderless, but I've never dreamed of myself as female.  And in dreams of a sexual nature I'm always male.
I do my thing, & you do your thing. I am not in this world to live up to your expectations, and you are not in this world to live up to mine. You are you and I am I, and if by chance we find each other - it is beautiful. If not it can't be helped.

Fritz Perls - A Gestalt Prayer

Offline Laurentia

  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 488
What an absolutely splendid thread. I'm lurking away here, amazed at the caleidoscope of human experience, and I hope the thread will stay this busy and fascinating. Thanks especially to Max, Sid, and Elle for your brave and honest posts.

While I'm posting anyway, the dream question: I've been male in dreams on occasion, but most often in those cases I've been a certain person. I've dreamt that I was the former bass player in Metallica, Cliff Burton, twice  :P and I've also had a painful waking from a dream where I was Divorced Ennis.
http://www.convert-me.com/en/convert/cooking - unit conversions for the kitchen!

Offline jack

  • Tough Old Bird
  • Obsessed
  • *****
  • Posts: 13964
  • aloha y'all...
    • My Adventures In Paradise
Quote
Does everybody frequently gender switch in dreams, do you think?  And if not, what does it mean, if anything?
not once, in my recall, did i ever gender swith in dream life.  and... haven't a clue.
"through Seneca Falls, and Selma, and Stonewall..."

Offline bbmbliss

  • Truly Scrumptious
  • Obsessed
  • *****
  • Posts: 6098
  • Love is where it falls
Quote
Does everybody frequently gender switch in dreams, do you think?  And if not, what does it mean, if anything?

I am usually my ordinary female self in dreams, but have been male on quite a few (some rather memorable!!) occasions.

As to what it means, not a clue.
I know why the caged bird sings.  The caged bird sings of freedom. - Maya Angelou

Offline Zuraffo

  • brokeback pilgrim
  • Obsessed
  • *****
  • Posts: 1564
  • Reminiscence...
    • My articles archive
Re: MTF? FTM? WTF? Everything you wanted to know about Transgender but were afra
« Reply #71 on: September 08, 2006, 02:09:36 AM »
This is a fascinating thread!

I remembered a time during my teenage I was always wishing to be a girl. I adore women. I want to be them. But I did a lot of soul searching, and a few years back I hit a revelation. Well, several in fact.

1. I am born a boy. There must be a reason behind it.
2. Boy can look beautiful.
3. As an individual I have the right to act and dress however I want, including those belong in the eyes of the society to the female gender.
4. Being a woman will not solve my relationship problem. ;)

Since then I've never looked back. I never really drag, although I am convinced I will look gorgeous in women dresses (My friends told me so, more than once occasion, by different people, so in a sense I am too flattered to actually tried :P). My behavior is mostly androgynous. I used to be "sissy", but nowadays I just act however I want, so I guess that gives me a sort of masculine edge to it. Some people still finds me feminine but I always thought that's their problem, not mine. ;D

One of my fantasy is that I used to be a girl in my past life who wanted to be a boy. So now my wish was granted but I still retain qualities from my past life! Weird thoughts.

Anyway, would just like to share my personal experience. I hope everyone here will find your own courage and wisdom to enjoy being yourself.

It doesn't matter how the world sees you. What matters is how you see the world.

Cheers!

Gonzo

  • Guest
In dreams always the twistedboy that I am.  Sexual dreams are 99.9% gay (mwm), but, I had a dream a long time ago where I was making out with a guy I was interested in and he turned into a somewhat androgynous woman I knew.

Offline jack

  • Tough Old Bird
  • Obsessed
  • *****
  • Posts: 13964
  • aloha y'all...
    • My Adventures In Paradise
Re: MTF? FTM? WTF? Everything you wanted to know about Transgender but were afra
« Reply #73 on: September 08, 2006, 04:39:39 AM »
One of my fantasy is that I used to be a girl in my past life who wanted to be a boy. So now my wish was granted but I still retain qualities from my past life! Weird thoughts.
i don't think that's weird at all.  i have no firm beliefs in past lives or even an afterlife, but i am one of i am sure many who has had that sense of displacement or familiarity that would betoken a prior personality.  i love the idea of the human personality as something of a palimpsest with bits of prior imprint peeking through.  it would explain a LOT of us, wouldn't it...

jack
"through Seneca Falls, and Selma, and Stonewall..."

elle_ann

  • Guest
Re: MTF? FTM? WTF? Everything you ever wanted to know about Transgender but w
« Reply #74 on: September 08, 2006, 06:19:51 AM »
Does everybody frequently gender switch in dreams, do you think?  And if not, what does it mean, if anything?

I'm hardly ever aware of myself in my dreams, except as an essence of 'me-ness'. So I just assume I'm female there due to lack of evidence to the contrary.  :D I do remember one dream I had as a teen where I was exhibiting what I perceived to be masculine behaviour - fighting off 'bad guys', doing some awesome kickboxing-type actions, being the hero! LOL. And as an adult, sexual/romantic dreams always included a male partner, but again with very little sense of who I was except just 'me' - a non-physical being.

Ever since I got into this thread yesterday, I have to say that my brain has not stopped buzzing, exploring the topic, reading the posts and thinking!! Sid, your answers to my questions were perfect - ramble away as often as you like, cos it made a lot of sense! (I have a real fondness for CS Lewis, btw, not to mention his best buddy JRR!) I'm so impressed at how REAL you are and how comfortable you seem to be with who you are. I think that is one of the hardest things to achieve - I know that when I get depressed, there is always a strong element of self-hatred involved, dissatisfaction with who I am, and vast quantities of despair at ever finding out where I 'fit in' - because at the end of the day, I think that's what most of us want, more than anything - to fit in, to belong, to be loved for ourselves and to be able to love ourselves too. That's why finding out who that self is, and then finding a way to live in harmony with that self - is so important.

So, going back to the dream question and what it means -  when I typed up my answer, it struck me that in my dreams, my sense of gender is not strong at all. And that ties in pretty well to everyday life - although I know I'm female, I don't overplay that... ever. I feel uncomfortable being a flirty, sexy woman. I thrive on intellectual stuff and I DO have a male-type brain (did the test, got the answer!)

So that dream question raised some very, very interesting thoughts indeed ... mmmm...I'm not actually convinced I have real transgender issues like some of the other posters here, (and you guys are awesome and very, very brave, btw!!) but there is definitely something going on and its been around for quite a while, so I'm really grateful that this forum / thread exists.

Elle