Alma & Lureen

[Tobysgirl]

I know I see things really differently from other people, but I've spent the last 40-plus years thinking about human relationships, and married to a straight man who definitely has things in common with Ennis. He's also been a talker, but feelings? Feelings??!!!??? And the other things that reminds me of Ennis is passivity. This is how I see Ennis and Alma -- they're both SO PASSIVE. They're both so locked into their roles, and it would never occur to them to talk to each other. I can't imagine seeing my partner kiss another man and not saying anything, but I can imagine that even in this day and age there are plenty of women who wouldn't. I see so many people in relationships who are just so passive. A friend of mine lives with her lesbian partner who does not work and, as far as I can tell, has no intention of working despite the fact that my friend lives with constant stress over being the only source of income. Do they really talk about the situation, try to deal with it, make plans? NO! Can people tell me why this is? Ever since I grew up (around age 30 or so), I insist on being active, making choices, not hating what's going on then doing something inappropriate to escape it.

Do people think it's really true to life that Alma would say ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about Ennis's relationship with Jack during their entire marriage, then bring it up over her kitchen sink of new marriage? The first time I saw the movie I felt something was off; the second time I saw the movie I knew it was the Thanksgiving scenes that felt out of place. Are they in the story? Does Alma's anger mean she's still in love with Ennis? If she weren't, why would she bring up this old crap now?

I think by people having to hide who they are -- and we hide most of all from ourselves, I think -- they cause a lot of pain to many, many people. I, too, had a friend who was in an unhappy marriage. She was very sexually active, but had an uninterested husband. Well, everyone at this site knows what the real story was. And even after he came out, there he was depending on her emotionally, which at least Ennis had the decency not to do.

By the way, Toby is my horse, not my husband. When you weigh 1600-plus pounds, what you say goes.

[sunspot]

Do people think it's really true to life that Alma would say ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about Ennis's relationship with Jack during their entire marriage, then bring it up over her kitchen sink of new marriage? The first time I saw the movie I felt something was off; the second time I saw the movie I knew it was the Thanksgiving scenes that felt out of place. Are they in the story? Does Alma's anger mean she's still in love with Ennis? If she weren't, why would she bring up this old crap now?

Pay attention to what Ennis says just before Alma brings up "Jack Nasty."  She asks him why he hasn't remarried, and Ennis says, "Once bitten . . .", as in once bitten twice shy.  He seems to be blaming Alma for the divorce.  At that point, I think Alma just snaps.  She's known the real reason why their marriage failed for a decade, and she finally lets him have it, both barrels.  It's Alma's "I can't stand this" moment.

[helen_uk]

On my third viewing of the parts between Ennis and Alma getting married and Alma seeing Ennis and Jack kissing, I just feel so, so sorry for Alma.  They didn't have a perfect life, but they had a decent one together. 

But it was a lie, and one that was forced upon her by society's demands and expectations.

 

[Tobysgirl]

Pay attention to what Ennis says just before Alma brings up "Jack Nasty."  She asks him why he hasn't remarried, and Ennis says, "Once bitten . . .", as in once bitten twice shy.  He seems to be blaming Alma for the divorce.  At that point, I think Alma just snaps.  She's known the real reason why their marriage failed for a decade, and she finally lets him have it, both barrels.  It's Alma's "I can't stand this" moment.

I remember exactly what Ennis said, actually "Once burned . . . ," I believe. My husband agreed that he was trying to blame Alma, but that's not how I saw it. Your ex is bringing you the dishes, your kids and your current partner are in the next room -- is this really what someone would choose to do at that moment? I'm pretty assertive and outspoken, but NEVER NEVER NEVER would I choose that time and place to get into it with my ex, especially about something I never mentioned for years. I still find the scene unbelievable. If it's in Annie Proulx's story, maybe she'll make me a believer (if I ever get a copy of the book!).

[helen_uk]

Well, we know the reason why he's never married again.  The reason behind his divorce.  My guess is that Ennis was stuck for something to say here, and just latched onto an old cliche, not even really thinking about what he was saying.  Alma too knows exactly why he hasn't remarried, so why did she ask I wonder?

[michaelflanagansf]

Well, we know the reason why he's never married again.  The reason behind his divorce.  My guess is that Ennis was stuck for something to say here, and just latched onto an old cliche, not even really thinking about what he was saying.  Alma too knows exactly why he hasn't remarried, so why did she ask I wonder?

I think Alma was having an existential crisis (if you will) concerning the gender of her ex-husband's lover.  She never resolved it or understood it internally - had no place to put it.  I've talked in the other forums about how Jack couldn't help Ennis and how Ennis couldn't imagine a world with Jack without the threat of violence, but I think we tend to forget that Alma was hampered by the lack of vision that living in rural America with limited education.  In the book it says:

"Under her breath she said, 'I'd have em if you'd support em.'  And under that, thought, anyway, what you like to do don't make too many babies."

This is the man that she sent up to Brokeback (a virgin, according to all we know) with plans to marry in the winter.  He came back irrevocably changed - although even he didn't understand this.  In the book he says (in the motel room):

"'That summer,' said Ennis, 'When we split up after we got paid out I had gut cramps so bad I pulled over and tried to puke, thought I ate somethin bad at that place in Dubois.  Took me about a year a figure out it was that I shouldn't a let you out a my sights.  Too late then by a long, long while.'"

Ennis has had Jack to talk to about all of this over the years.  Alma has had no one.  She's 4 months pregnant when she confronts Ennis - and is probably angry enough to eat glass, because he is still a hero in the eyes of his daughters.  My guess is that Alma didn't plan to do this - she just explodes (this is 1977 - 2 years after the divorce and 10 years after she has found out about Jack and Ennis).  She's settled down with Monroe (and she clearly is the alpha male in that relationship) and just cannot resolve this.  The divorce is granted in November 1975 - I would suppose that in 1976 they did not get together for Thanksgiving.  This is probably an attempt at a reunion before Alma has the new baby - a try at 'blending' the families.  And it goes oh so wrong.

I don't know if any of your families had a tradition of big blow out fights at holidays - but I know mine did.  And we had some doozies (I am the last of 9 children).  I see this as a combination of 'holiday frustration' (Alma had probably cooked everything only to have her daughters just glow at Ennis when he walks in) and being at the end of her rope.

For Alma this is the moment that is as much of a crisis as Jack's moment when he comes up after the divorce or Ennis' moment when he realizes on that last meeting that he might be losing Jack (which is where the 'It's because of you I'm like this' - a speech which truly hurts when I hear it - comes from).

And there we are - I'm back at Ennis and Jack even though we're talking about Alma.  Is it any wonder she blew up?  I'm just glad she wasn't washing a knife at the time....

[Tobysgirl]

Thanks, Michael. That helps a lot, your clarification from the story. Do you get the sense in the story that without his fears of being "different" and the possible repercussions he would face, Ennis would live with Jack? I didn't get this sense in the movie. I sort of got the sense that Ennis liked his three or four times a year honeymoons with his lover. Nothing kills passion sometimes like the irritations of living together (and working together, if they ranched).

[michaelflanagansf]

Thanks, Michael. That helps a lot, your clarification from the story. Do you get the sense in the story that without his fears of being "different" and the possible repercussions he would face, Ennis would live with Jack? I didn't get this sense in the movie. I sort of got the sense that Ennis liked his three or four times a year honeymoons with his lover. Nothing kills passion sometimes like the irritations of living together (and working together, if they ranched).

Well, you know Tobysgirl, I'm not sure we can get too far along the 'Ennis without his fear/shame' line.  After all, it took the death of the love of his life to get him to change enough so that he could go to his daughter's wedding.

But, hypothetically mind you, I don't think Ennis would have MINDED having someone to live together by the time we get to the 'Cassie pie-eating' scen.  By this time his world has shrunk so much that he probably would have welcomed respite from its confines.  If you look at Jack & Ennis working together on the mountain, that didn't seem like too much of a problem.  It's when they STOP living together that they have problems.

Remember that the first trouble that Alma and Ennis have is when he brings the kids into the grocery so he can go help with the mares birthing.  This is before Jack even shows up.  Although you may be right in a way - the look Ennis get on his face in the grocery (implying and theatening violence) is the same sort of look that he gets toward Jack when he's talking about Mexico.

So I guess it wouldn't all be bluebirds singing and whiskey springs, but I still think he would have welcomed the change.

[qguyhere]

Pay attention to what Ennis says just before Alma brings up "Jack Nasty."  She asks him why he hasn't remarried, and Ennis says, "Once bitten . . .", as in once bitten twice shy.  He seems to be blaming Alma for the divorce.  At that point, I think Alma just snaps.  She's known the real reason why their marriage failed for a decade, and she finally lets him have it, both barrels.  It's Alma's "I can't stand this" moment.

I agree... what I got from that scene is that Alma truly loves Ennis (everyone loves Ennis -- Jack, Alma, the waitress -- but he just doesn't get it) and she's still hurt. And when Ennis said, "Once bitten" all the hurt and venom just rush in. It also shows us that Alma is still in love with Ennis and the new hubby is just a substitute.

[WLAGuy]

I agree... what I got from that scene is that Alma truly loves Ennis (everyone loves Ennis -- Jack, Alma, the waitress -- but he just doesn't get it) and she's still hurt. And when Ennis said, "Once bitten" all the hurt and venom just rush in. It also shows us that Alma is still in love with Ennis and the new hubby is just a substitute.

I think you're exactly right, gguyhere.  She's basically telling Ennis that she and the girls don't want him to be alone, and to hear him say "once bitten" would have stung. 

[michaelflanagansf]

I agree... what I got from that scene is that Alma truly loves Ennis (everyone loves Ennis -- Jack, Alma, the waitress -- but he just doesn't get it) and she's still hurt. And when Ennis said, "Once bitten" all the hurt and venom just rush in. It also shows us that Alma is still in love with Ennis and the new hubby is just a substitute.

I think you're exactly right, gguyhere.  She's basically telling Ennis that she and the girls don't want him to be alone, and to hear him say "once bitten" would have stung. 

I just saw the film again last night and was watching for this scene in particular.  Next time you see it could I ask you to pay attention to the look on Alma's face at the dinner table (before the 'Once Burned' comment).  That's not love I see - she looks royally angry to me - but I humbly submit that I could be wrong and would be interested in your opinions on this.  She starts to tell Ennis (at the counter cleaning dishes) that she doesn't want him to be alone ("You ought to get married again, Ennis.  Me and the girls worry 'bout you bein' alone so mucn") and he replies "Once burned".  Then Alma asks "You still go fishin' with Jack Twist?'

The script informs that 'From her tone Ennis knows something is coming.'  And Alma is 'trembling, but controlled'.  I don't think she's trembling but controlled with love.

Of course there is a mix of emotions here - but I see a lot of anger coming from Alma - and I see it even before the conversation (as I said, at the dinner table).

[sunspot]

Of course there is a mix of emotions here - but I see a lot of anger coming from Alma - and I see it even before the conversation (as I said, at the dinner table).

Oh, no doubt she's angry.  But I also think she's still in love, and she's the one who feels burned.  It's possible to get really angry with the ones you love - just look at how Ennis reacts later in the film to Jack mentioning Mexico.

[qguyhere]

She's definitely angry, but the reason behind her anger (aside from being betrayed by her ex-hubby and "Jack Nasty") is that she still loves Ennis. That's what makes her characters so complicated, and why Michelle's performance is so wonderful.

[mwp2paris]

She's definitely angry, but the reason behind her anger (aside from being betrayed by her ex-hubby and "Jack Nasty") is that she still loves Ennis. That's what makes her characters so complicated, and why Michelle's performance is so wonderful.

When Ennis says "once burned" he is saying his relationship with Alma burned him to the point that he is unwilling to try again. Why go through another marriage if this is what it will get me.  What this says to Alma is she wasn't that into the relationship to keep her from moving on. Alma takes this as a slap in the face...like Ennis is saying she never loved him anyway so no big deal for her to move on and I think that is what moves Alma to snap like a whip and get Ennis where she knows he is his weakest...she aims right for his Achille's Heel and scores a bullseye.

The development of Alma's willingness to stand up to Ennis and to finally, from her perspective and anger and unfulfilled dreams, put Ennis in his place is an amazing bit of acting going on here. Michelle should most definetely get the Oscar.

[levans645]

I must say, Michelle Williams played Alma to perfection.  Reminded me so much of my wife and the pain I caused her, when all she really wanted was to love and be loved in return.