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Author Topic: The Structure of the Movie and Film Editing  (Read 131823 times)

Offline Ryan

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Re: Element: The Structure of the Movie and Film Editing
« Reply #45 on: February 20, 2006, 09:26:03 PM »
Thanks for your insight into this scene... it does make sense. And it certainly does make the point that Monroe was understanding of Alma -- so when we saw Alma and Monroe later married, we weren't saying "where did he come from??". It seemed purely logical.

If, on the other hand, it had been placed shortly after Jack's and Ennis' reunion, we would be wondering all sorts of things!

Offline Ryan

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Re: Element: The Structure of the Movie and Film Editing
« Reply #46 on: February 20, 2006, 09:52:13 PM »

Another deleted scene... in one of the many tribute videos that have been made (and featured on Dave's main site), there is one that shows the scene where Ennis shoots the elk. We are all familiar with the "Yea-aah" shout by Jack and the shove of Ennis. In one of those videos, someone has a clip of Ennis shoving Jack BACK!  I've never seen it anywhere else. It's almost like the initial shove was totally unexpected by Heath, so he shoved Jake back -- but Ang Lee thought it may not have looked authenic enough to keep in the film.

Offline Scott88

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Re: Element: The Structure of the Movie and Film Editing
« Reply #47 on: February 20, 2006, 10:13:25 PM »
Ryan, that shot is indeed in the theatrical release.  Jack shoves Ennis, and Ennis shoves him right back.  A great little moment. ;)

Offline winter

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Re: Element: The Structure of the Movie and Film Editing
« Reply #48 on: February 21, 2006, 12:50:49 AM »
On structure, there seems to be welcome agreement on the binary pattern of AP's story and the film, but sequence remains important. Think of sequence as the abscissa (in critical terminology, the syntagmatic element, here in the form of an album of photographs) and pattern the ordinate (or paradigmatic aspect, the pattern of parallel or opposite framing elements). Both are essential to any narrative, and both important for interpretation. A local movie critic heaped great scorn upon the pc sentimentality of the binary, framing elements of Ennis' memory of the disembowelled rancher and his vision, determined by this memory, of Jack's death. I began to wonder if the latter might not have a different antecedent: the gored sheep Ennis' discovers when he returns to the mountain after his first night of lovemaking with Jack (in the script, not the story). At first glance this might seem a gratuitous reminder of a failure to do his job and a source of guilt, for it doesn't curtail the relationship and Ennis' sense of guilt is already keen enough. But the slain lamb/the slain Jack? Jack is a debatable Christ figure, but fact is that his legacy to Ennis is an ability to accept love (for his daughter, her love for Kurt, his own love for Jack, which he now accepts as sustaining his life) and to become himself in terms have have real meaning. In contrast to his declaration to Jack on their last trip that "it's because of you, Jack, that I'm like this. I'm nothin'. I'm nowhere." (in the script) we find him at the end, for the first time in his life, being someone, somewhere. I wish I had a solution to the symbolism of the number 17 Ennis attaches to his mailbox (again, in the script, not the story), but surely the combination of 1 (singleness, isolation, island of the sea) and 7 (fullness, completion) is enough. (The acknowledgement of love as a condition of being and analysis of place are the beginning steps in contemplative prayer.) And the final scene of the shirts has them juxtaposed not to a view of the "great bleakness of the vast northern plains" called for in the script but to a green field of new corn, new growth. Ennis' tragedy of late learning ends with hope, not despair. An octogenarian Moravian lady remarked to me the other day on the mythic quality of BBM, and added that it is a "gift that keeps on giving." I think she's right. (By the way, Diana Ossana recently pointed out that the change in the shirts was not Ang Lee's idea but Heath Ledger's: more reason for admiration.)


     

Offline Ryan

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Re: Element: The Structure of the Movie and Film Editing
« Reply #49 on: February 21, 2006, 11:29:14 AM »
Ryan, that shot is indeed in the theatrical release.  Jack shoves Ennis, and Ennis shoves him right back.  A great little moment. ;)

Thanks Scott88 - I can't believe I missed that... will have to see it again!

Offline gnash

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Re: Element: The Structure of the Movie and Film Editing
« Reply #50 on: February 21, 2006, 12:18:13 PM »
And the final scene of the shirts has them juxtaposed not to a view of the "great bleakness of the vast northern plains" called for in the script but to a green field of new corn, new growth. Ennis' tragedy of late learning ends with hope, not despair. An octogenarian Moravian lady remarked to me the other day on the mythic quality of BBM, and added that it is a "gift that keeps on giving." I think she's right. (By the way, Diana Ossana recently pointed out that the change in the shirts was not Ang Lee's idea but Heath Ledger's: more reason for admiration.)

i also feel that the view outside the window is of hope and promise, and contrasts with the closet, which houses the shirts that represents the love between the two men but also contains the closeted, hidden nature of their relationship.

one reviewer went even further, to paint the view outside as a dead, lifeless field, devoid of life and even describing dirt fields and rocks, if i recall correctly. i beg to differ, and saw the moving grasses as a living scene, a notion that ennis, seemingly empty and filled with nothin' because he didn't have nothin', was still situated in a world of motion and change.

the woman you speak of sounds like she loved the movie, and her remark was wonderful as the movie really does have much to offer. repeated viewings of brokeback mountain always seems to offer something new to me, and that's why i keep coming back.

i heard about the shirt ideas as being heath's own, and i also heard that he spirited away that very same pair to keep as his own. i'm sure that while heath and jake are not gay, the universal notions of love and loss in the movie really did affect them in a way they won't soon forget.

lol -- my secret wish and desire is that they continue the romance they shared on brokeback mountain in real life, but without the constrictions of homophobia and distance. i like to think the resulting autobiographical film (directed by ang lee, of course) will be well received and awarded. ;) ;D
« Last Edit: February 28, 2006, 02:30:19 AM by gnash »

"Brokeback is about a lost paradise, an Eden."  Ang Lee


patroclus

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Re: Element: The Structure of the Movie and Film Editing
« Reply #51 on: February 21, 2006, 12:43:24 PM »

Another deleted scene... in one of the many tribute videos that have been made (and featured on Dave's main site), there is one that shows the scene where Ennis shoots the elk. We are all familiar with the "Yea-aah" shout by Jack and the shove of Ennis. In one of those videos, someone has a clip of Ennis shoving Jack BACK! I've never seen it anywhere else. It's almost like the initial shove was totally unexpected by Heath, so he shoved Jake back -- but Ang Lee thought it may not have looked authenic enough to keep in the film.

Weirdly, this makes me start to doubt my sanity! I'm sure the first time I saw the film, in the UK in early January 1. I heard Jack say 'as we're going to be working together we may as well start drinking together and 2. I distinctly remember Ennis shoving Jack right back after the elk shooting. But then neither was there in subsequent viewings. Do you suppose there might be dozens of Brokeback Mountain versions, all subtly different, at large? Maybe that's why so many people have to keep going back... LOL

Offline Ryan

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Re: Element: The Structure of the Movie and Film Editing
« Reply #52 on: February 21, 2006, 01:49:19 PM »

Another deleted scene... in one of the many tribute videos that have been made (and featured on Dave's main site), there is one that shows the scene where Ennis shoots the elk. We are all familiar with the "Yea-aah" shout by Jack and the shove of Ennis. In one of those videos, someone has a clip of Ennis shoving Jack BACK!  I've never seen it anywhere else. It's almost like the initial shove was totally unexpected by Heath, so he shoved Jake back -- but Ang Lee thought it may not have looked authenic enough to keep in the film.

Weirdly, this makes me start to doubt my sanity! I'm sure the first time I saw the film, in the UK in early January 1. I heard Jack say 'as we're going to be working together we may as well start drinking together and 2. I distinctly remember Ennis shoving Jack right back after the elk shooting. But then neither was there in subsequent viewings. Do you suppose there might be dozens of Brokeback Mountain versions, all subtly different, at large? Maybe that's why so many people have to keep going back... LOL

Patroclus -

Now I am doubting my sanity too! In the 4 times that I saw the film, all in the DC area (in 4 different theaters) there was never the "...we may as well start drinking together" line. It was in the trailer, but it was cut out of the film as it showed the guys walking to the bar after they first meet.

I could have sworn there was never an 'Ennis shoving Jack back' clip when I saw it (all 4 times).  Maybe I am wrong. But I remember being surprised when I saw it on that music video -- like "where did that come from???".

Offline gnash

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Re: Element: The Structure of the Movie and Film Editing
« Reply #53 on: February 21, 2006, 03:04:48 PM »
...I could have sworn there was never an 'Ennis shoving Jack back' clip when I saw it (all 4 times). Maybe I am wrong. But I remember being surprised when I saw it on that music video -- like "where did that come from???".

i'm pretty sure that jack shoves ennis with both hands, then ennis shoves jack back, with his right hand (on jack's left arm), knocking jack on his ass. then, after ennis stands up, he shoves, or rather hits, jack again, with his open right hand. it's all good natured and playful, and describes the boys as getting used to one another, and more physical. HOT lol. ;)

"Brokeback is about a lost paradise, an Eden."  Ang Lee


Offline Ryan

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Re: Element: The Structure of the Movie and Film Editing
« Reply #54 on: February 21, 2006, 03:34:18 PM »
...I could have sworn there was never an 'Ennis shoving Jack back' clip when I saw it (all 4 times).  Maybe I am wrong. But I remember being surprised when I saw it on that music video -- like "where did that come from???".

i'm pretty sure that jack shoves ennis with both hands, then ennis shoves jack back, with his right hand (on jack's left arm), knocking jack on his ass. then, after ennis stands up, he shoves, or rather hits, jack again, with his open right hand. it's all good natured and playful, and describes the boys as getting used to one another, and more physical. HOT lol. ;)

Wow -- this was definitely not in the version that I saw. After the initial shove by Jack, it cuts to the scene where they are feasting by the campfire. hmm.... How many versions are out there???? 

Offline peteinportland

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Re: Element: The Structure of the Movie and Film Editing
« Reply #55 on: February 21, 2006, 05:18:13 PM »
...I could have sworn there was never an 'Ennis shoving Jack back' clip when I saw it (all 4 times). Maybe I am wrong. But I remember being surprised when I saw it on that music video -- like "where did that come from???".

i'm pretty sure that jack shoves ennis with both hands, then ennis shoves jack back, with his right hand (on jack's left arm), knocking jack on his ass. then, after ennis stands up, he shoves, or rather hits, jack again, with his open right hand. it's all good natured and playful, and describes the boys as getting used to one another, and more physical. HOT lol. ;)

I saw the movie last night and this is exactly what happened in the version I saw. I kept my eye on this scene due to this debate.

Offline paulh

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Re: Element: The Structure of the Movie and Film Editing
« Reply #56 on: February 22, 2006, 11:46:27 AM »
<<I heard about the shirt ideas as being heath's own, and i also heard that he spirited away that very same pair to keep as his own. i'm sure that while heath and jake are not gay,  the universal notions of love and loss in the movie really did affect them in a way they won't soon forget.>>

Dear gnash:

Heath did not take those shirts, Jake did. Jake then put them up for sale on eBay, where they raised $101,000 for a children's charity.



My interpretation of Jake and Ennis's relationship is that they would always have been friends even if they hadn't become lovers. Ennis never lied to anyone about his friendship with Jack. There is no society anywhere in the world that would look askance on friendship.

Another point: From what I have read about the scenes that will be in the DVD version of BBM, I gather that most of the scenes that were deleted from the theatrical version were about Jack and/or Lureen. I am wondering whether Lee had artistic or Oscar-related reasons for the choice of deletions.
The idea of Jake as invisible
Is amusing, my friends, if not risible.
Wherever he goes,
Nearly everyone knows
That he's Jake Gyllenhaal, indivisible ;-)

Offline deuce

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Re: Element: The Structure of the Movie and Film Editing
« Reply #57 on: February 23, 2006, 01:38:14 AM »
My interpretation of Jake and Ennis's relationship is that they would always have been friends even if they hadn't become lovers. Ennis never lied to anyone about his friendship with Jack.

i must differ... Ennis lies to Alma during their first conversation about Jack, when he calls Jack a "fishin' buddy."

from the first viewing, i have felt this meant the wheels were already turning in Ennis' head, thinking of ways to make it seem cool for he and Jack to get away for a weekend...

--deuce
(understanding that perhaps you meant 'lie' in some deeper sense, like "no, he's not my friend...")

Offline romeshvr

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Re: Element: The Structure of the Movie and Film Editing
« Reply #58 on: February 23, 2006, 03:50:42 AM »
Any idea why fishing buddy was chosen?

I can understand if hunting buddy was chosen, then there would be a hunting season and I think they would have to get license and all.

Offline michelle

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Re: Element: The Structure of the Movie and Film Editing
« Reply #59 on: February 26, 2006, 06:07:38 PM »
There were a couple of things I thought could have been done better with the structure of the movie,though I'm pretty certain the structure we see was very deliberate.

My main gripe is that you hardly get a glimpse of what Jack and Ennis have for each other...which then leaves the post-card arriving four years later something of an oddity.  Especially they way they react when the see each other.  So, on my first viewing of the film, I was pulled out of the movie experience a lot because it seemed fake. 

Gosh, you've just hit on a subject I've been planning to address, which is the number of times we are shown Jack and Ennis either thinking about or reminded of each other during that 4-year interval. I meant to see the movie again and focus on all the visual clues, but right now it's only playing at 10 PM at the closest cineplex, so I'm waiting for the Oscars to propell it back onto the regular schedule for a few weeks. So here are a few that I remember (and I know there are other instances, which I hope others will remember):

1. The toboggan ride scene: After Alma falls off and pulls Ennis down in the snow he starts to rough-house the way he did with Jack but she screams and he immediately recovers himself, realizing that she's too small and too fragile for the rough stuff.

2. The roadwork scene. Ennis is spreading asphalt, listening to the guy beside him yammer, his demeanour distant, silent. Who wants to bet he wishes he were back on Brokeback, with the cool clean air of the mountains on his face instead of the dust and dirt, wandering freely on horseback with Jack playing his harmonica, a lifetime away from the heat and the noise and the intrusive chatter of his boorish coworker ?

3. The drive-in. Ennis' face is slack, bored, a cipher. He's staring at the screen but his mind is somewhere else entirely. Emma has to reach for his hand and make him feel the child moving in her belly to remind him of her existence.

4. Jack turns up at Aguirre's looking for Ennis, and is crudely and degradingly reminded of his most luminous moments with Ennis on Brokeback Mountain.

3. Ennis arrives at his little ranch-house, pulling a horse-trailer, in a black pick-up truck identical to Jack's.

4. Ennis sits on the bed, as Alma comes up behind him, wrapping her skinny arms around his shoulders in the very pose we later see Ennis adopt with Jack in the dozy embrace. She starts to whisper seductively, close to his ear, nuzzling and stroking him, as he closes his eyes, and again seems transported outside himself, to another place and time. This is confirmed when, after initiating lovemaking, he turns off the light and, ignoring Alma's frantic protestations, quickly flips her over and positions himself behind her.

5. The 4th of July scene. Ennis's temper is under control until the biker challenges his masculinity ("You oughta listen to your old lady then"). That's when he totally loses it.

6. As Jack slowdances with Lureen for the first time, to the song "No one's Gonna Love You Like Me", he grins and chats and flirts with Lureen, but in an unguarded, unwatched moment, over the lyrics "I know sometimes you've felt so lonely, I know you've felt so sad and blue..." his expression changes to one of utter desolation.

7. In the car, as Jack and Lureen are making out, Jack naturally assumes the bottom position as Lureen straddles him.

All this before the first postcard arrives. And the rest of the movie is littered with visual cues, telegraphing the boys' longing for each other.