The Ultimate Brokeback Forum

Poll

Were They Gay?

Yes
456 (65%)
No
30 (4.3%)
Jack was, Ennis wasn't
118 (16.8%)
They were bi
97 (13.8%)

Total Members Voted: 655

Author Topic: Were they gay? (Jack & Ennis)  (Read 891037 times)

Offline PetterG

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Re: Were they gay? (Jack & Ennis)
« Reply #30 on: December 26, 2005, 04:03:30 PM »
I have been very interested into the question 'how will E live today?'
I think he will be alone, maybe alcoholic - very tragic.
The more positive version that he will find a new love (man or woman) in his life, I don't think is realistic.
He is one of these men-who-has-sex-with-men, but see themselves as homosexual/gay.
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Offline PetterG

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Re: Were they gay? (Jack & Ennis)
« Reply #31 on: December 26, 2005, 04:05:36 PM »
I forgot a 'not' in my last sentence: "but not see"...
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Offline lightsrays05

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Re: Were they gay? (Jack & Ennis)
« Reply #32 on: December 26, 2005, 04:09:06 PM »
There are many (our members among them) who want this relationship to be something that happened out of the blue TO these two guys who became best buddies on BBM.  I have seen many reviewers describe their relationship as a relationship that suddenly changes in the course of one night without any advance notice or foresight on behalf of the two participants.

There is a line from Jack that explains that he is gay and mean it: "I'm not a great at cooking but I am a very good can opener". Cut. Shows Jack opening a can... Full of worms?

Or too early in the movie yet? ;)

Then there is a part that Ennis says to Jack "You might be a sinner, but I have had not the opportunity YET"...

Which came soon enough!

GAY! GAY! GAY! I say...

;)



Offline Ranchgal

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Re: Were they gay? (Jack & Ennis)
« Reply #33 on: December 26, 2005, 04:09:49 PM »
Ranchgal: I agree with a lot of ideas - but I thought the social 'pressure' was (and still is) harder in small towns and at the countryside.QUOTE



"IF he would have found Jack first----there NEVER would have been an Alma."

interesting idea - but I don't think so, because the idea that he could live together with Jack wasn't realistic, according to Ennis, so I think he would marry a girl anyway (wasn't the affair with Cassie a try to do something like that?)

Well the gay men that I knew growing up, did leave here as soon as they were done with High school, but they were never beaten up or physically bashed that anyone ever knew or talked about----there were some standing jokes however, and I certainly would NEVER say their lives were very easy, or made easier--but my town only has 1300 people in it when there is a sports event going on---so pretty small countrified here---and while there is some peer pressure, more to drink than anything else---I don't see it being harder than anywhere else.  And here, if a guy doesn't date, he just doesn't date--out here it usually is excused as "never having found the RIGHT one(girl), and no one gives it a second thought---it never made any difference if he went with girls or didn't go with girls--UNLESS his parents gave someone grief about the marriage thing.  If Ennis would have lived out here, and would have drank with the guys--no one would have ever thought about him dating or not dating.    But I suppose a lot of this speculation has to do with the actual people involved too.   So it could be alot harder somewhere else.  You could easily be right about that

I don't see him living with Jack---IF he would have found Jack first---he would have lived his entire life, just like he did after he and Alma divorced---minus the daughters---I don't think he would have ever married any woman----but he would never have lived with Jack either---he would have maybe been alittle more free to meet him more often though I bet.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2005, 04:14:48 PM by Ranchgal »

Offline PetterG

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Re: Were they gay? (Jack & Ennis)
« Reply #34 on: December 26, 2005, 04:15:23 PM »
Ranchgal:
I agree with you - he would have lived his whole life single.
And I have several relatives living in the Swedish country (farmers) without any women, and noone has ever thought that they might be 'gay'.
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if you cannot stand it - you gotta fix it

Offline CellarDweller115

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Re: Were they gay? (Jack & Ennis)
« Reply #35 on: December 26, 2005, 04:15:44 PM »
They were both gay.  No question in my mind.

Offline WLAGuy

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Re: Were they gay? (Jack & Ennis)
« Reply #36 on: December 26, 2005, 05:08:26 PM »
GAY! GAY! GAY! I say...

They were both gay.  No question in my mind.

Well, not stating the facts on which one bases one's opinion is certainly one way of making sure no one can argue with one's conclusion.

Offline lightsrays05

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Re: Were they gay? (Jack & Ennis)
« Reply #37 on: December 26, 2005, 05:25:18 PM »
Well, not stating the facts on which one bases one's opinion is certainly one way of making sure no one can argue with one's conclusion.

Well, I told you... Jack said that he is a good "can opener".

It's very easy to catch the symbolism.

And Ennis said that he wasn't a sinner because he had not had the "opportunity"...

They just got drunk so that the can could be open, and the opportunity to manifest itself.

From their GAY take on life...

Come on!

Play fair.



Offline Gracies Daddy

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Re: Were they gay? (Jack & Ennis)
« Reply #38 on: December 26, 2005, 06:18:16 PM »
{snip}
Personally, I don't have any deep need for them to be gay, and I am ambivalent about Ennis' sexuality. I do know this: those two men sure did love one another. For now, that is all I really need to know.

ON THE MONEY, Pete!!  My personal philosophy:  "Love does not come with a Brand Name."
...more shall be revealed...

Offline WLAGuy

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Re: Were they gay? (Jack & Ennis)
« Reply #39 on: December 26, 2005, 06:23:55 PM »

Come on!

Play fair.


Well, it would have been nice to hear a thoughtful, considered response to the points I spent about 45 minutes carefully typing out this morning.

Offline CellarDweller115

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Re: Were they gay? (Jack & Ennis)
« Reply #40 on: December 26, 2005, 06:24:20 PM »
GAY! GAY! GAY! I say...

They were both gay.  No question in my mind.

Well, not stating the facts on which one bases one's opinion is certainly one way of making sure no one can argue with one's conclusion.


Well......I don't know any straight guys that willingly have sex and a love affair with another man.  That's pretty much the basis of that statement.

I don't read into lines about "not sinning" or being a "can opener" (although I did laugh at them in the theater).  You watched these two guys develope a passionate relationship.  They hugged, open mouth kissed, and had sex.  There's a question that they were gay?
« Last Edit: December 26, 2005, 06:27:30 PM by CellarDweller115 »

Offline mallory

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Re: Were they gay? (Jack & Ennis)
« Reply #41 on: December 26, 2005, 06:46:03 PM »
I think there's no question in anyone's mind that Jack was gay--travelling to Mexico to pick up young men, hitting on rodeo clowns, etc--but whether or not Ennis was bisexual--whether or not he 'loved' Alma, or could have loved a woman, the way he loved Jack--is another question. His love for Jack absolutely transcends any feelings he has ever, or could ever, have for another person--male or female. Throughout the film, Ennis attempts to make Alma into some sort of Jack surrogate; roughhousing with her on the sled, flipping her over to 'do what she hated' during sex, punishing her like he punishes himself for not being what she is supposed to be, for not making her love him like a normal man loves a woman.

I like to think of Ennis' marriage to Alma as a moment from earlier on in the movie: after the bear spooks the mules and sends them running all over the mountain, dropping the food, Jack suggests they shoot one of the sheep and eat it. "I can live with beans," Ennis tells him. It takes Jack to get him to hunt a moose, to eat something better than just beans (no pun intended, I'm sure), to want more. Ennis is perfectly willing to live a life of emotional stuntedness, of beans and trailers, of failed marriages and lonely, half-hearted love affairs. Alma is good enough for him. Does that make him straight or even bisexual? I think it simply makes him afraid.

Offline kiajean

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Re: Were they gay? (Jack & Ennis)
« Reply #42 on: December 26, 2005, 07:16:35 PM »


Quote

Well, it would have been nice to hear a thoughtful, considered response to the points I spent about 45 minutes carefully typing out this morning.
Quote

WLA Guy:  I identify as a bisexual female and I enjoyed reading your earlier post. Having dated men in the past and entered into my first relationship with a woman about a year ago, at first I felt so much pressure to explain what category I fit into. Everyone wanted to know "does this mean you're a lesbian now?" or "does this mean you were a lesbian all along?" The answer to both is no, but then I also feel guilty when I tell people no, because I don't want it to be like I'm ashamed of the lesbian community or denying it in any way or don't want to be associated with it.
It took me a long time to figure out where I felt I belonged. Sexuality is such a multi-dimensional spectrum and people are scattered all over it.
How do you think we can get people to stop thinking in terms of categories and start simply accepting their attractions (both physical and emotional) as they come?
The story of jack and ennis certainly illustrates, (IMO), how in the ideal world this would be the case.

Offline doodler

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Re: Were they gay? (Jack & Ennis)
« Reply #43 on: December 26, 2005, 07:40:18 PM »
I am not sure this is the right thread for posting this, but here goes... there are a number of societies where same sex relationships are acceptable and in most of those societies the same men are also married. The idea seems to be women are for procreation but men are for love. As far as I know, all are in male dominated areas of the world. Is it perhaps only Anglo-Saxon Christian societies that have a problem with same sex relationships?
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Offline cindy

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Re: Were they gay? (Jack & Ennis)
« Reply #44 on: December 26, 2005, 08:00:32 PM »
Doodler, can you be more specific about where these societies are located?  I am a straight girl, and this is a fascinating subject. Thanks!