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Author Topic: The Rose Garden  (Read 56210 times)

Offline Brokeback_1

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Re: The Rose Garden
« Reply #15 on: February 03, 2007, 05:36:40 AM »



'Autumn Damask'
 'Castilian'
 'Four Seasons'
 'Old Castilian'
 'Quatre Saisons'
R. damascenca x 'bifera'
R. bifera semperflorens 
R. damascenca bifera
R. damascenca semperflorens
R. damascenca semperflorens x semperflorens 
R. semperflorens
Rose des Quatre Saisons
Rose of Paestum
Rose of Castille
Rose of Miletos
Rose of Ephesos


A lot of names, right? It should have many names! This is the only  surviving rose known to have decorated the temples, banquets  and palaces of the Roman Empire. From this plant the perfumes of antiquity were produced, perfumes which adorned Cleopatra and Messalina, scents which  were prized and fought over. Entrepeneurs in Rome grew fields of the Autumn Damask in the mild climate of Lower Egypt, outside of Alexandria. They imported the flowers into the imperial capital via  fast ships during the winter months--a time when sea traffic in the ancient world virtually stopped--for the tables of  Caeser Augustus, Nero and Marcus Aurelius. Ordinary people of all social classes favored this rose. The Autumn Damask is identifiable in Pompeiian wall paintings, has been found carved in marble on surviving  but fragmentary pediments in Rome. It is depicted on  Ostrogothic 'spangel' war helmets dating from the reigns of Theuderik the Great--who took Italy from Odovacar "and restored the greatness of the Roman name"--and his brilliant, murdered daughter Amalaswuenta. Later, around the year 1000 A.D. the Emperor Basil II of Constantinople had it  planted it around the Hagia Sophia; a surprise, this last---he was a gruff and brilliant but no-nonsense general who had no time for such things. Yet this is what he had planted around the great dome of the Sophia, beating spiritual heart of the empire.

 It is visible in the decoration of  early Christian basilicae. It was so prized that this rose alone--of all the roses known to have been grown in antiquity-- survived wars, civil wars, the depopulation of the countryside,the overthrow of the Olympian Gods, the Barbarian  Invasions, the Collapse of Civilisation, the western Dark Ages; it not only survived but was treasured, from the days of Pericles right  into our own times. Of all the old roses, this is the only one which blooms profusely in Spring, throws off blooms here and there in summer, and then blooms well again in the fall. This is the famous and legendary Autumn Damask.


The rose is not quartered but sometimes looks as if it is on individual flowers. These can have a  button eye, visible in the picture I used.The stamens are bright gold. It is  flat and somewhat  loosely shaped. It can scent an entire garden--especially in morning. The 'damask scent' is very strong and survives well in potpourri. The color is a classic 'old rose pink'  and does not vary. It has elongated damask hips, but not that many. Like most but not all damasks it is quite thorny, although it doesn't even compare in thorny nastiness  with  the beautiful damask called 'Hebe's Lip'>>>Hebe can be used as a torture implement lolol.

.Autumn Damask should be in the garden of every person who likes roses but in a way I'm glad it isn't. Why? because it's such a nice surprise when you actually SEE it; it's not planted much in the US.


Height:    3 ' x  4 '           Width:    4 ' x  4 '

'Autumn Damask' forms a mounding shrub 3' to 4' in height and 4' wide. But that's conservative. The one by my mother's house could be trained to grow into one of those small ornamental dwarf trees as  it throws out longish canes once or twice every year. So if you let it build up---which you should do anyway-- it could be a small pillar or a semi-large shrub too.

When you plant it in the fall, if it's a transplant prune it   back HARD to force new canes in the spring. Six inches above ground is best but , if you are nervous make it one foot. But cut it back! This is excellent practice when transplanting for almost all roses anyway. If it is in a 1-2-3 gallon pot from the nursery spread the roots out in October and, if it is small, just let it grow. But prune away anything twiggy.

The first year after planting you will not get much--a flower or two or three. The second year it will look nice. The third year it will take your breath away.

It is hardy to zone 4 in the US. It could possibly survive in zone 3, but only in a sheltered area, and I'd definately cover it with burlap and insulate the interiour with leaves or straw for the winter up there, covering the crown itself with a very heavy mulch. Prune it once a year in the springtime as it blooms on year old wood. However, of course, you can take out dead or useless wood at any time.

Regarding negatives,  it can mildew. It is not a rose to plant in a dank corner. Mildew on the Autumn Damask is not that serious anyway, UNLESS you plant it in such a dank closed spot. Just circumvent the problem by planting  in a well ventilated area. I once cut back and transplanted 2 of them from a sort of cul de sac  by a garage, where they had mildewed,  into an open, partly shaded space with good air movement in summer, the mildew disappeared for good. I don't think it has any other afflictions.

Below is some additional technical info about the Autumn Damask which i got from the ARS {American Rose Society}. This rose is famous, such a legend that I have to give as much information as possible.  Autumn Damask which earns its' keep, deserves  space in any garden. It is  also just of a size where, like the gallica roses, you can use her in a perennial border---just put it up front so you can smell it close up!!!!


BLOOM
DESCRIPTION:    Flower Size:    3.00"      to      4.00"           Cluster Size:    3      to      5 

Petal Count:    40 to 50         

'Autumn Damask' flowers are doubled with ruffled, muddled, silky petals and golden stamens in a compact central area.
 
BLOOM
COLOR:    
 Medium pink. 'Autumn Damask' blooms open bright rose pink and gradually fade, exhibiting shades of mauve.


OTHER
CHARACTERISTICS:    


    ** Tolerant of poorer soils
    ** Suitable for hedging and fence rows
    ** Suitable for growing into trees
    ** Susceptible to mildew
    ** Suitable for planting in woodlands settings

Because of its strong fragrance 'Autumn Damask' is excellent for making pot-pourri.
 
ANECDOTAL
INFORMATION:    

'Autumn Damask' is one of the parents of the Hybrid Perpetual roses. 'Perpetual White Moss' is a sport of this rose

« Last Edit: February 03, 2007, 06:58:13 AM by brokeback_1 »
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Offline Boris

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Re: The Rose Garden
« Reply #16 on: February 03, 2007, 09:52:13 AM »
"A theater is the most important sort of house in the world, because that's where people are shown what they could be if they wanted, and what they'd liked to be if they dared, and what they really are." -Tove Jansson-

Offline whiplash

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Re: The Rose Garden
« Reply #17 on: February 03, 2007, 03:03:29 PM »
Your roses are beautiful.  I don't know a thing about roses and have always steered away from them because I have been given the impression that they are disease prone and finicky.

I love the picture you posted of the Duchesse de Montebello.  It looks amazingly like a peone.
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Offline Brokeback_1

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Re: The Rose Garden
« Reply #18 on: February 03, 2007, 03:33:40 PM »
Roses are as difficult as you make them.

An experiment was done with the Hybrid Tea class---one planting bed had that perfect careful pruning we all hear about. In the other, same varieties, they used a chain saw to prune every bush to the same height and didnt bother with twiggy wood...

. The chain sawed roses bloomed just as beautifully as the carefully pruned Hybrid Teas, although I wouldn't do it myself lolol

Thing is, none of these roses pictured are Hybrid tea roses. Remember one thing: the old roses went completely out of fashion, people had to literally rediscover many in out of the way spots, old homesteads, war ruined castles etc. And they survived  in some cases for centuries with no care.

By the way, if you like the Duchesse wait until you see the French China and Tea roses, or some of the Bourbon roses. And there are the modern English roses whic combine classic shape with modern colors on some--but by no means all--very good plants. Some of those English roses simply suck, but they get a lot of press.
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Offline Brokeback_1

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Re: The Rose Garden
« Reply #19 on: February 03, 2007, 08:59:04 PM »
Boris, what rose is that???
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Offline Brokeback_1

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Re: The Rose Garden
« Reply #20 on: February 03, 2007, 11:32:22 PM »


One more gallica:

Rosa gallica itself, the granddaddy of all european roses. A simple suckering and low 3 foot shrub. There are other and finer species roses---the american rosa virginiana comes to mind, that's MY favorite--but virtually none have the mystique of this little plant. It's hard to imagine that it's the ancestor of so many spectacular shrubs.
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Offline Brokeback_1

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Re: The Rose Garden
« Reply #21 on: February 03, 2007, 11:37:21 PM »
and now for some damask roses:



Ok, this is a pretty big once b;looming shrub called Kazanlik. It's the rose from which Attar of Roses is made. if you want form, pass it by, it is basically shapeless and very casual, a country rose. If you want incomparable scent, plant it. I harvested some blooms for my aunt to use in her potpourri things at least 4 years ago. Over Christmas i saw the petals in a bowl and was incredulous, wanted to know why she still had them. The response was amazing: she still has them because they still retain scent, after 4 years in a bowl.

It's a rose with no pretensions, it just makes life nicer. The bloom period lasts from 3 to 6 weeks depending on the location.
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Offline Brokeback_1

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Re: The Rose Garden
« Reply #22 on: February 03, 2007, 11:40:04 PM »


This is one rose i am very fond of. It's Rosa damascenca x 'tinctatura', in France known as Leda, and in the US known as the Painted Damask. It's a small shrub, about 3x3. The flowers are very fragrant and also very beautiful, they actually DO look as if a landscape painter had spilled paint on the edge. Well worth having, almost anywhere.
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Offline Brokeback_1

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Re: The Rose Garden
« Reply #23 on: February 03, 2007, 11:43:53 PM »


Madame Hardy--it's apparently named after the hybridiser's wife, as a peace gesture after she found out about his mistress.  This is a once blooming damask  rose of great elegance and panache, it breathes STYLE, and the style it breathes is very french indeed. It can be used as a small pillar rose or a small climber. Dates to the first half of the 19th century and isthe essence of an old garden rose. The coloration is very delicate, the photo doesn't really pick that delicacy up.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2007, 01:49:32 AM by brokeback_1 »
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Offline Brokeback_1

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Re: The Rose Garden
« Reply #24 on: February 03, 2007, 11:49:17 PM »


Ok this one is an historical oddity:

Marie Louise, a damask named after Napoleon's second wife, Josephine's successor. A lot of people feel that it's a political statement as well, as the Empress Marie Louise was spineless female who ditched her husband, her son and  her adopted country, but she held onto her French pastry chefs for dear life. THEM she refused to be parted from. This rose should be grown in a tomato cage. It has a very lax growth habit and would be all over the ground otherwise. It belongs in any collection of napoleonic roses, but as she did in real life, the gallica rose Empress Josephine wins, hands down. It's about 3 feet tall and looks GOOD in a tomato cage, as it then weeps. So did the empress, but to no effect, all it got her were new lovers at the rate of one a month for her entire life after divorce.
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Offline Brokeback_1

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Re: The Rose Garden
« Reply #25 on: February 04, 2007, 12:04:34 AM »


The damask rose Hebe's Lip, a shrub, 4x4 which can also be trained as a decent sized climber. The way to do that is to prune in the spring and preserve good sized canes, allowing successive growth to build up. I did this at my aunt's, and this 4x4 shrub ended up 12 feet into a Kwanzan cherry tree.

Hebe's Lip is so thorny it should be listed as a weapon, the only way to handle it is with thick gloves. I pronounce this rose not just thorny but HELLACIOUSLY thorny. I would not plant it if you have kids under the age of reason, say 5 or 6.

It is the simplest and most species-like of the damask roses. I find the flower stunning; in full bloom it has HUNDREDS. I stopped counting on the one at my aunts after passing the 500 mark, and I hadn't done half the plant! It can be and is one giant statement....Hebe cannot be ignored in bloom, it's one of those 'drop dead' roses.

It was first recorded in 1912 France, but EVERYONE believes it to be much much older--they just can't trace it.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2007, 01:50:45 AM by brokeback_1 »
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Offline Brokeback_1

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Re: The Rose Garden
« Reply #26 on: February 04, 2007, 12:24:57 AM »


La Ville de Bruxelles is a decent sized damask with humongeous flowers. They are so big they weigh down the branches and you have to support them or they would be all over the ground. For all that, it's very very nice indeed and like all the damasks has a very rich scent. It grows up to 7 feet tall and has flowers in clusters of 6 or 7. Those flowers are about 5 inches across.
It is very hardy, I'd say into zone 4.

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« Last Edit: May 03, 2012, 11:21:00 PM by killersmom »
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Offline Brokeback_1

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Re: The Rose Garden
« Reply #27 on: February 04, 2007, 12:56:11 AM »
]How about a really interesting ross to close off for now?

Check this one out, named Lyla Banks:


It's a shrub about 3x4 and for some reason reminds me of a clematis

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« Last Edit: May 03, 2012, 11:23:04 PM by killersmom »
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Offline whiplash

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Re: The Rose Garden
« Reply #28 on: February 04, 2007, 07:21:16 AM »


This is one rose i am very fond of. It's Rosa damascenca x 'tinctatura', in France known as Leda, and in the US known as the Painted Damask. It's a small shrub, about 3x3. The flowers are very fragrant and also very beautiful, they actually DO look as if a landscape painter had spilled paint on the edge. Well worth having, almost anywhere.

How difficult is this rose to care for?  Can I find it at my local landscape gardener or is this something I would need to order special?

I noticed that you ordered a lot of roses.  Can you recommend a reputable dealer?  Thanks.
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Offline Brokeback_1

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Re: The Rose Garden
« Reply #29 on: February 05, 2007, 01:38:43 PM »
The older roses are NOT hard to care for whip. Remember that many if not most survived for a hundred years in old ce\metary's before they were 'rediscovered' and put back into commerce. I have to go out but will post a few places which sell them.

They need water the first year so roots get established. Then you can basically leave them alone. The painted damask is easy as pie, every year i just cut out dead wood during winter along with useless thin wood. They don't even need much fertiliser. They are strong hardy bushes. Most thrive on their own roots; the exceptions being the Bourbon Roses, which are better as grafted plants.
There was some open space between what he knew and what he tried to believe but nothing could be done about it, & if you can't fix it, you've got to stand it