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Author Topic: Is society really as accepting as it claims?  (Read 379615 times)

Offline Kelpersmek

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Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
« Reply #30 on: February 11, 2007, 05:15:51 PM »

I think humans are always considering each others sexuality. 

I think you're right, but the difference I was trying to point up is between a quick assessment of a person (hot or not?) made at a barely conscious level, and the need to take that into account in how you deal with someone.  I don't think sexuality (which is, as you say, about more than just purely sex) needs to be the basis on which we conduct all interactions.  Gay, straight, bisexual, or however someone thinks of their own sexuality: it shouldn't result in different treatment from someone.

Equally, I am not advocating that we all wander around in some asexual limbo.  Just that we don't have to base simple social interactions on sexuality.  I don't need to know your sexual orientation to tell you the time of day, and equally it shouldn't matter to me what your orientation is unless I am pursuing a different interaction.

Remember that study that said men think about sex some outrageous amount of time like ten seconds out of every minute or something like that?  So, men at least, think about sex all the time practically.  So if your shopkeeper was gay and you walked in, he'd take notice.  If he's straight, he probably wouldn't think about it.  But if he was straight and a woman walked in, he'd think about it.  Men are always speculating about it.  The stereotype of construction workers ogling women as they walk by their work is a stereotype cause it happens alot, appropriate or not.

I think that study has been bastardised and misrepresented enormously.  Nonetheless, I don't think that a shopkeeper is speculating as to whether I am gay or straight right away.  I think instead they are working out if they fancy me or not.  My orientation is of secondary importance, or no importance at all in a casual encounter.  It's all about beauty being in the eye of the beholder.

Your example of stereotyped Construction workers (and I happen to know some well behaved ones to balance that out  ;) ) will be whooping and yelling at lesbians, bisexuals and transvestites, just as readily as straight women.  It's not about the sexuality of the other person, but about their own.

That makes sense in the context of most people, but public celebrities are in another realm all together.  All those nightly entertainment shows thrive on those things and seem to have few boundaries.

See, I differ from the media view here, in that I don't believe appearing in a film, TV show or newspaper instantly voids all right to a private life.  Just because people are interested, doesn't mean it's any of their business.  If Jake wants to be grinning on TV 24 hours a day 7 days a week on the "All Jake Channel" (I'll stop and wait for a few people reading this to wipe the drool off their keyboards :D ) it doesn't mean that anyone has some right to treat him as public property.

Sure, the media does this right now, but it is point blank wrong.  Jake is a man who works in a job that requires publicity.  That doesn't give the media carte Blanche to follow him about and try and work out who he may or may not be sleeping with.  His sexuality may be interesting to fans, but it is not a matter for public record.  We have no right to pry into his life, anymore than he has the right to flick through your web browser history at night, checking up on what you were looking at ("Google: are velociraptors afraid of fire?"; "Google: What to do in case of velociraptor attacks" ; "Google: can velociraptors open doors?").

It is sad that a gay celeb can't feel free to mention their sexuality.  Worse than sad, it's abhorrant to me that such a climate prevails.  On the other hand, if Jake is straight, it's still nobody's business but his own.  People close to him may well know the truth of the matter, but as friends and relatives, it's only right that he shares things with them.  We haven't earned that intimacy with him, and it is perfectly understandable, to me, that he would wish to keep as much of his life as anonymous and secretive, as the rest of us do.

I know sexuality matters and worldwide we are incredibly hung up on what people do with their genitalia, and to whom, and when.  I agree it's the case just now.  I just hope that one day people realise it's not such a big deal and stop feeding the gluttony of the media, granting it the power to invade the private lives of others for the satisfaction of our curiosity.

Offline Lola

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Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
« Reply #31 on: February 11, 2007, 05:17:03 PM »
I can see by this picture, they are more than friends.
Yeah, that lasted!
Anyway, many women love gay men as friends! 

It did it lasted 2 years!

Quote
He was asked point blank and told the press they were just friends.  So I guess I am just going to take him at his word.

And T.R. Knight never used the "f" word.   

HUH??

Quote
IF he [Jake] is as open as we say, then he would have no reason to deny it.

And I've got a bridge I can sell you in NYC!

He wouldn't have a reason to deny it, see my quote above!

Quote
As for Heath, no I have never thought he was gay.

What about "bi" as I stated?

Nope never thought that either.

Quote
Heath lives in 2007, he has no reason to marry and have a child for any other reason than that he is in love, madly in love, with Michelle, which he has said many many times.

So did Ennis.

No Ennis didn't live in 2007!

My responses are in bold!
 
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Offline Lola

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Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
« Reply #32 on: February 11, 2007, 05:19:12 PM »
Is society really as accepting as it claims?


How about it depends where we live, would that be a fair statement?
 
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Offline Lyle (Mooska)

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Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
« Reply #33 on: February 11, 2007, 05:19:22 PM »
I think that is doctered isn't it? lol

Why did your mind go there, Lola?
Cause you don't believe it?
Or you are convinced of his sexuality one way or another?
Or you are being provocative?
Play devil's advocate?
Just asking.

Offline Lola

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Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
« Reply #34 on: February 11, 2007, 05:20:29 PM »
I think that is doctered isn't it? lol

Why did your mind go there, Lola?
Cause you don't believe it?
Or you are convinced of his sexuality one way or another?
Or you are being provocative?
Play devil's advocate?
Just asking.


Because I know that is not a real picture! lol  We can't post fake pictures as proof!  :D


National-NBC) January 30, 2007 - Jake Gyllenhaal's career has been pretty amazing. And now, the dreamy-eyed actor is talking to "GQ" magazine about real life - getting married and having kids.

It looks like now that big sis Maggie is a mom, it's Jake's turn to pass along those talented Gyllenhaal genes. He tells GQ, "I'm definitely thinking about that."

But not so fast - the actor is holding out until the right lady comes along first, of course, "Look, the most important job for a man is to find the right woman. It's the best we can do."


 
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Offline shelber

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Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
« Reply #35 on: February 11, 2007, 05:23:29 PM »
lol just a note, the pic of jake and heath i did not know it was doctored  ;D my bad
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Offline Lyle (Mooska)

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Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
« Reply #36 on: February 11, 2007, 05:24:55 PM »
Is society really as accepting as it claims?

If it was, in Hollywood, Brokeback Mountain would have won the best picture oscar last year.

Offline Lola

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Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
« Reply #37 on: February 11, 2007, 05:27:22 PM »
lol just a note, the pic of jake and heath i did not know it was doctored  ;D my bad

Can someone do one of me and Antonio Banderas?   ;D
 
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Offline shelber

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Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
« Reply #38 on: February 11, 2007, 05:31:51 PM »
Is society really as accepting as it claims?

If it was, in Hollywood, Brokeback Mountain would have won the best picture oscar last year.

i definately agree with this
So I'm going home,
Back to the place where I belong,
And where your love has always been enough for me.~ daughtry

Offline Kelpersmek

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Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
« Reply #39 on: February 11, 2007, 05:31:54 PM »
lol  We can't post fake pictures as proof!  :D


Slight tangent to the discussion.. but...

When I saw this I read it out to Penny and said
"Man, I am sooo tempted to take a photo of myself right now, and photoshop myself into a passionate kiss with Jake.  Then I could post up a 'Omg!  I'm gay and I never knew it!'  ;D "

There was a few seconds for silence and then, in a slightly trembling breathless voice, Penny said
"R-really?  Would you? <drool>"

 ::)



Offline Lyle (Mooska)

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Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
« Reply #40 on: February 11, 2007, 05:32:12 PM »
Quote
National-NBC) January 30, 2007 - Jake Gyllenhaal's career has been pretty amazing. And now, the dreamy-eyed actor is talking to "GQ" magazine about real life - getting married and having kids.

It looks like now that big sis Maggie is a mom, it's Jake's turn to pass along those talented Gyllenhaal genes. He tells GQ, "I'm definitely thinking about that."

But not so fast - the actor is holding out until the right lady comes along first, of course, "Look, the most important job for a man is to find the right woman. It's the best we can do."

Lola, I read an article like that about Sean Hayes.  This is called publicity.  If this was the 60's you'd have read that about Richard Chamberlain.  The 50's--Tab Hunter--the 70's Richard Gere (I talked to John Schelsinger and his boyfriend one time.  He directed Richard Gere in Yanks and told me about Richard and his boyfriends then.  I don't want to sound like a gossip monger or name dropper, but if you believe all these things written in magazines, then you are quite mis-informed about many things you may want to use as proof.)

Offline merrobot

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Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
« Reply #41 on: February 11, 2007, 05:34:08 PM »
It is sad that a gay celeb can't feel free to mention their sexuality.  Worse than sad, it's abhorrant to me that such a climate prevails.  On the other hand, if Jake is straight, it's still nobody's business but his own.  People close to him may well know the truth of the matter, but as friends and relatives, it's only right that he shares things with them.  We haven't earned that intimacy with him, and it is perfectly understandable, to me, that he would wish to keep as much of his life as anonymous and secretive, as the rest of us do.

Actually, I don't keep a lot of my life anonymous and secret and the bits that I do, I do out of fear and shame.  I don't tell people stuff about myself (including my sexual orientation) because I don't believe that I can handle it if they reject me for it.  Because getting down to it, what most of us live in is a society where we are not encouraged to be ourselves and you could argue that by remaining closeted LGBT celebrities are reinforcing that culture.  I think if every single LGBT person came out publicly, then perhaps we could make a real difference but right now there are only a few brave souls out there who really put themselves out of the line and while I salute them for it, it frustrates and saddens me that there are those of us that just don't feel we can do it.
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Offline shelber

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Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
« Reply #42 on: February 11, 2007, 05:34:25 PM »
heres how un cool i am and another thread drift, i didnt even know what photoshop was until here. lol. i wish i knew how to do it, me and some smexy sandra would be filling out an album in no time  ;D ;) :-*

back to your regular scheduled thread
So I'm going home,
Back to the place where I belong,
And where your love has always been enough for me.~ daughtry

Offline Lola

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Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
« Reply #43 on: February 11, 2007, 05:41:06 PM »
Quote
National-NBC) January 30, 2007 - Jake Gyllenhaal's career has been pretty amazing. And now, the dreamy-eyed actor is talking to "GQ" magazine about real life - getting married and having kids.

It looks like now that big sis Maggie is a mom, it's Jake's turn to pass along those talented Gyllenhaal genes. He tells GQ, "I'm definitely thinking about that."

But not so fast - the actor is holding out until the right lady comes along first, of course, "Look, the most important job for a man is to find the right woman. It's the best we can do."

Lola, I read an article like that about Sean Hayes.  This is called publicity.  If this was the 60's you'd have read that about Richard Chamberlain.  The 50's--Tab Hunter--the 70's Richard Gere (I talked to John Schelsinger and his boyfriend one time.  He directed Richard Gere in Yanks and told me about Richard and his boyfriends then.  I don't want to sound like a gossip monger or name dropper, but if you believe all these things written in magazines, then you are quite mis-informed about many things you may want to use as proof.)

Lyle this is not the 50's or the 60's or the 70's, it is 2007!!!!   And the funny thing is, if he had said "hell yea I am gay" you would have believed it.  But he said "he wants to marry a women and have a family"  So you automatically assume that is for publicity.  I think you have to ask yourself why that is??
 
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Offline shelber

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Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
« Reply #44 on: February 11, 2007, 05:43:49 PM »
Hey, Shelly - I like your style: "Is society really as accepting as it claims?  Discuss"  :-*

Well, the short answer to that question is 'no' in my opinion.  I think that there is a move towards acceptance but the pace is pretty slow.  In a lot of ways society is "tolerant" of homosexuality and bisexuality but not quite "accepting".  I think this is reflected in the way that some countries are introducing legislation around 'hate crimes' based on sexual orientation, civil partnerships or gay marriage and other measures designed to reduce discrimination and promote equality.

However, many of the issues that have been brought up on this thread already are less to do with homophobia but with heterosexism.  Now, while homophobic comments and actions are much more widely condemed in society (i.e. the individual beliefs of the homophobe), heterosexist attitudes are very often overlooked.  This is because society still promotes the ideas that heterosexuality is "the norm", that the nuclear family is something to be aspired to and celebrated, that in some way being gay or lesbian or bisexual is somehow less desirable.  Advertising is a very good example as you so rarely see same-sex couples portrayed in mainstream media campaigns and where they are, it is usually for "shock value".

I remember having a conversation a few months ago where some friends were having a discussion about the adoption of kids by same-sex parents.  One friend said she thought it was a good idea that kids who otherwise wouldn't have homes would be able to do so but that you wouldn't want to put teenagers into homes with gay adoptive parents of their own sex as she had read a study that it "would make it more likely that they would turn out gay".  This really incensed me as her implication was "and if you make it more likely that someone will become gay then it's less appealing that if they turn out straight."  Sadly, I think a lot of people still share this sentiment - they like gay men, lesbians and bisexuals, they understand that "it's not their fault" ( ::)), but ultimately they still have this belief that "it would have been better for them if they had been born straight".  I don't think my friend is homophobic, in many ways she is hugely accepting of all kinds of people, but she is still influenced in subtle ways (as are all of us to a greater or lesser degree) that will take a long time to overcome.

This is progress, there is hope, but it's baby steps.  :)

penny what a great reply! thanks  :-*

here is something that i heard my own mother say

she was working and happens to work with a young man that she affectionately calls the flaming faggot, he was talking about him and his boyfriend wanting to adopt. well she came to the house almost sputtering, because how terrible for a child to be adopted by "those people"

which you know didnt really endure me to telling her that her own daughter was in fact "one of those people"  :)
So I'm going home,
Back to the place where I belong,
And where your love has always been enough for me.~ daughtry