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Author Topic: Is society really as accepting as it claims?  (Read 376279 times)

Offline shelber

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Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
« Reply #15 on: February 11, 2007, 04:21:19 PM »
i just realized i didnt answer my own question

is society really as accepting as it claims?

i dont think it is

i think in front of cameras or someone wants to be known then they are more apt to say "hell yes gay/lesbians should have equal rights" but i believe that when the world cant see them and its time to vote we wont win. why? i wish i knew.

but when it comes to our beloved actors and actresses they know, they know its better to not say anything while their career is hot because them coming out could kill their careers. all the women who love jake, and fantasize about being with him, and wanting to get him all naked and such, well will they still feel that way should he say "well folks i am gay" it shouldnt, because fantasy is what you make of it. sandra bullock is straight  >:( but that doesnt stop me from throwing her a few lines in some yummy fantasies i have. does it make her less attractive to me that she is straight, lord no.

i wish that it was ok to be gay and not have to worry about anything, i wish that it would of been ok to have held jeanine's hand while we were at myrtle beach, as it was hand holding weather, but we didnt dare, to afraid? maybe a little worried. why cant jake or heath, be gay should that be who they are (wishes) why cant we all just love them for the wonderful performance they gave us in brokeback mountain. why cant the people who are adamant that he is straight be ok with those of us who are adamant that he isnt, why hush us? why say "its not complicated, he is straight" why cant we say well yes you are entitiled to your opinion, as am i. why does it turn out to be people feeling stiffled and people feeling defensive.

i think jake is gay....there i said it......now i shall wait and see who most wants to put tape over my mouth  ;D
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Offline Lyle (Mooska)

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Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
« Reply #16 on: February 11, 2007, 04:21:20 PM »
I think that perhaps the phrase "no ones business" is less to do with "I don't want to know, don't tell me", and more like "it shouldn't even be a question most people consider".

I think humans are always considering each others sexuality.† That's why even astronauts can get crazy over it.

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What does it really matter if Jake is straight or gay?† Do we need to speculate on who is and is not a vegan?† No, because it simply doesn't matter in most circumstances.† I think (and correct me if I am putting words into your mouth) that that was what was being said.

Remember that study that said men think about sex some outrageous amount of time like ten seconds out of every minute or something like that?† So, men at least, think about sex all the time practically.† So if your shopkeeper was gay and you walked in, he'd take notice.† If he's straight, he probably wouldn't think about it.† But if he was straight and a woman walked in, he'd think about it.† Men are always speculating about it.† The stereotype of construction workers ogling women as they walk by their work is a stereotype cause it happens alot, appropriate or not.

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There's no reason not to speculate, except to respect the privacy of the person in question.† It's not so much an issue of Jake's sexuality, as I see it, but rather that he has not chosen to make that information public.

...but that doesn't mean you are comfortable with it being a topic for open debate and discussion, right?

What I am saying is, private speculation is one thing, public discussion is a lot more likely to get a "That's none of your business" response.† Hope that makes sense† ::)

That makes sense in the context of most people, but public celebrities are in another realm all together.† All those nightly entertainment shows thrive on those things and seem to have few boundaries.

In terms of someone making their orientation public or not, like I said, that's why the movie studios used to make gay stars go out with women.† It's a problem in this country.† It can cause a celebrity's career harm in many instances.† I mean, everyone knows that Sean Hayes is gay, but he says it's no ones business.† Does he say that to his friends as well?† John Travolta sues people saying he's gay, but that doesn't stop him from asking men like my waiter friend Rick out on dates.

Gay celebrities may say their sexuality is no one's business, but that implies they only tell certain people or they are completely closeted.† For straight celebrities it's not like that.

Hmmm, I hope that was coherent-lol!

Offline Lola

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Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
« Reply #17 on: February 11, 2007, 04:33:54 PM »
i think jake is gay....there i said it......now i shall wait and see who most wants to put tape over my mouth† ;D

Okay I have to ask, why do you think that?   Just asking!  ;)
 
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Offline Lyle (Mooska)

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Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
« Reply #18 on: February 11, 2007, 04:38:05 PM »
is society really as accepting as it claims?
i dont think it is

Agree.  You can see that just by polls that say that glbt's should have equal rights, but then at the voting booth it's a different story.

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I think jake is gay....there i said it......now i shall wait and see who most wants to put tape over my mouth† ;D

As to your original point...I encountered that on a thread when I was relating a story about Jake being seen doing things with his friend Austin that my friend had observed who said "Straight men just don't touch each other like that."  Well, posters were all wondering why we had to "speculate" about Jake's sexuality all the time or even report stories like that.

I'll tell you that in 2000-2001 I was well acquainted with the RCA/Columbia guy in charge of their video department.  He had met Ang Lee (the guy and Ang are both Chinese) and he matter of factly told me that Ang is gay, as is he.  All of a sudden it seems Ang wasn't last year!  People would say "he has a wife" (like they didn't even see BBM???).  Really, I was confused.  Maybe that's why Ang does movies about people hiding their true identities--Wedding Banquet, Sense & Sensibility, The Hulk, The Ice Storm, BBM etc.  Maybe that's why he dedicated BBM to his wife...similar situation?  Straight men have learned to fantasize about their celebrities by identifying say with the woman in a film, to have the relationship with the man in their mind/fantasy.  I don't know if lesbians do that vice-versa?  Certainly, women seem to have been able to do that with BBM, but man haven't.  I can't see Mark Wahlberg identifying with either guy in BBM and projecting himself into that situation.  They have never had to like gay men have.  They "could", but they won't.

I guess if you shoot down anyone's fantasies they will react.  Speaking of straight men--I've often wondered--they watch porn movies and there's always a guy there with his penis out making love to the woman--is that like a blind spot to them?  They never notice or what? 

Anyway, it seems my points are all over the place, but what the hey!

Offline shelber

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Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
« Reply #19 on: February 11, 2007, 04:50:54 PM »
i think jake is gay....there i said it......now i shall wait and see who most wants to put tape over my mouth† ;D

Okay I have to ask, why do you think that?† †Just asking!† ;)

would it be weird if i said gaydar? probably.

well i am going to be honest, i didnt even know jake gyllenhal was an actor until BBM, i always thought he was the un happy looking boy friend of kirsten dunst.

in the pictures of jake where his date is a woman, he looks bored, tense, not having a good time, but in all the pics you see him in where he is with men, he looks alive, happy, sparkly, smily more so, he laughs alot in these pics.

there is a difference in the way he looks when pics are taken, and this classy line from OUT magazine, jake was asked if he had ever been drawn to another man sexually, his response was " no, but hopefully you can see that iím not afraid of it. that could be read many ways, but to me he was saying no, not yet, but it could happen. that was from an october issue before bbm came out..teehee little play on words there.
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And where your love has always been enough for me.~ daughtry

Offline Lyle (Mooska)

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Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
« Reply #20 on: February 11, 2007, 04:51:19 PM »
i think jake is gay....there i said it......now i shall wait and see who most wants to put tape over my mouth† ;D
Okay I have to ask, why do you think that?† †Just asking!† ;)

My friend who observed "Straight men just don't touch each other like that" and some on this forum have seen and posted about Jake acting in ways that straight men do not.† So, there is anecdotal evidence from many.† But even if you saw Jake DOING IT with another guy that wouldn't satisfy some.† After all, a good portion of the guys having sex with each other in gay porn films insist they are straight.

I have excellent sources that know Heath is bisexual.† No one ever speculates about Heath.† (I have no reason to doubt them.)

By the way, if all of our information is correct, that Jake and Ang are gay and Heath is bi, all those people who complained about BBM being done all by straight people with their "straight" sensibilities are totally off base!† LOL!

From past history, we will know who the gay/bi celebrities of today are in about 20 years when they (or others) all write their books a la Montgomery Clift, Hattie McDaniel, Rock Hudson, Robert Taylor, Barbara Stanwyck, Errol Flynn (who'd do it with anyone or thing according to writers) Tab Hunter, Richard Chamberlain, and countless others!

Offline shelber

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Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
« Reply #21 on: February 11, 2007, 04:54:17 PM »
is society really as accepting as it claims?
i dont think it is

Agree.† You can see that just by polls that say that glbt's should have equal rights, but then at the voting booth it's a different story.
Quote
I think jake is gay....there i said it......now i shall wait and see who most wants to put tape over my mouth† ;D

As to your original point...I encountered that on a thread when I was relating a story about Jake being seen doing things with his friend Austin that my friend had observed who said "Straight men just don't touch each other like that."† Well, posters were all wondering why we had to "speculate" about Jake's sexuality all the time or even report stories like that.

I'll tell you that in 2000-2001 I was well acquainted with the RCA/Columbia guy in charge of their video department.† He had met Ang Lee (the guy and Ang are both Chinese) and he matter of factly told me that Ang is gay, as is he.† All of a sudden it seems Ang wasn't last year!† People would say "he has a wife" (like they didn't even see BBM???).† Really, I was confused.† Maybe that's why Ang does movies about people hiding their true identities--Wedding Banquet, Sense & Sensibility, The Hulk, The Ice Storm, BBM etc.† Maybe that's why he dedicated BBM to his wife...similar situation?† Straight men have learned to fantasize about their celebrities by identifying say with the woman in a film, to have the relationship with the man in their mind/fantasy.† I don't know if lesbians do that vice-versa?† Certainly, women seem to have been able to do that with BBM, but man haven't.† I can't see Mark Wahlberg identifying with either guy in BBM and projecting himself into that situation.† They have never had to like gay men have.† They "could", but they won't.

I guess if you shoot down anyone's fantasies they will react.† Speaking of straight men--I've often wondered--they watch porn movies and there's always a guy there with his penis out making love to the woman--is that like a blind spot to them?† They never notice or what?†

Anyway, it seems my points are all over the place, but what the hey!

i couldnt agree more.

and i have seen other threads to where people were as you said " were all wondering why we had to "speculate" about Jake's sexuality all the time "
lol why are people always specualting that he is straight?

i liked your response lyle thank you :-*
So I'm going home,
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And where your love has always been enough for me.~ daughtry

Offline shelber

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Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
« Reply #22 on: February 11, 2007, 04:58:26 PM »


I have excellent sources that know Heath is bisexual.† No one ever speculates about Heath.† (I have no reason to doubt them.)


my opinion on why no one speculates about heath is because he is married and has a child, and living the all american dream. thats got to make you straight right.

lol i guess that would make be bi instead of gay, i have a child, but i drink beer, watch hockey and am totally and crazily in love with a woman.
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Offline Lola

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Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
« Reply #23 on: February 11, 2007, 05:01:08 PM »
would it be weird if i said gaydar? probably.

well i am going to be honest, i didnt even know jake gyllenhal was an actor until BBM, i always thought he was the un happy looking boy friend of kirsten dunst.

in the pictures of jake where his date is a woman, he looks bored, tense, not having a good time, but in all the pics you see him in where he is with men, he looks alive, happy, sparkly, smily more so, he laughs alot in these pics.

there is a difference in the way he looks when pics are taken, and this classy line from OUT magazine, jake was asked if he had ever been drawn to another man sexually, his response was " no, but hopefully you can see that iím not afraid of it. that could be read many ways, but to me he was saying no, not yet, but it could happen. that was from an october issue before bbm came out..teehee little play on words there.



He looks happy to me! lol

I can see by this picture, they are more than friends.† When I see him with that guy friend, I just see two friends.† I guess it is how we look at it.† We can see anything we want to see.† † †I know my husband is at his happiest at sporting events.† And if and when he goes, I prefer it not to be with me.† So you would see plenty of him watching sports and laughing and talking.† That is what guys (some guys) do.

But having said that, Jake and that guy could be more friends.† He was asked point blank and told the press they were just friends.† So I guess I am just going to take him at his word.

IF he is is open as we say, then he would have no reason to deny it.

As for Heath, no I have never thought he was gay.

Okay now I am thinking of the movie IN and OUT, "is everyone gay"   LOL   I don't think so.

Heath lives in 2007, he has no reason to marry and have a child for any other reason than that he is in love, madly in love, with Michelle, which he has said many many times.
 
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Offline Lyle (Mooska)

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Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
« Reply #24 on: February 11, 2007, 05:02:41 PM »
i think jake is gay....there i said it......now i shall wait and see who most wants to put tape over my mouth† ;D

Okay I have to ask, why do you think that?† †Just asking!† ;)

would it be weird if i said gaydar? probably.

No!† Not at all!

I test my gaydar out every week lately, on Gay, Straight or Taken,
where they deliberately try to throw you curve balls on your assumptions.
I try to see which guy "I" feel most comfortable with and would be interested in and then which one is gay--not always the same!† Those Nascar gay guys I just could never get along with!

Truthfully--I have no gaydar about Jake being one way or another.  I
simply cannot decide either way!

P.S.:† My gaydar is always up about Kenny Chesney whom I don't know much about.† Any info?

Offline shelber

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Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
« Reply #25 on: February 11, 2007, 05:08:02 PM »
lola you are a gem

actually i agree he does look happy in those pics, honestly i think that is the first time i have seen them


vs



lol i think you are right too, its how we see it, which i think kind of goes with my we all have a right to an opinion  :-*, and let me add this conversation could be an excellent tool for others to see how people can each have their own thoughts but yet still respect and care for people who differ THANKS EVERYONE for respecting eachother
So I'm going home,
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And where your love has always been enough for me.~ daughtry

Offline shelber

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Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
« Reply #26 on: February 11, 2007, 05:09:54 PM »
i think jake is gay....there i said it......now i shall wait and see who most wants to put tape over my mouth† ;D

Okay I have to ask, why do you think that?† †Just asking!† ;)

would it be weird if i said gaydar? probably.

No!† Not at all!

I test my gaydar out every week lately, on Gay, Straight or Taken,
where they deliberately try to throw you curve balls on your assumptions.
I try to see which guy "I" feel most comfortable with and would be interested in and then which one is gay--not always the same!† Those Nascar gay guys I just could never get along with!

Truthfully--I have no gaydar about Jake being one way or another.† I
simply cannot decide either way!

P.S.:† My gaydar is always up about Kenny Chesney whom I don't know much about.† Any info?


i havent always been right either.

about kenny chesney though, not sure, i am not a big country fan.
So I'm going home,
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And where your love has always been enough for me.~ daughtry

Offline Lola

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Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
« Reply #27 on: February 11, 2007, 05:14:02 PM »




I think that is doctered isn't it? lol

"You know, it's flattering when there's a rumor that says I'm bisexual. It means I can play more kinds of roles. I'm open to whatever people want to call me. I've never really been attracted to men sexually, but I don't think I would be afraid of it if it happened." (Details, December 2005)


And yes I love that we can discuss and respect each others opinions!  ;D
 
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Offline Lyle (Mooska)

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Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
« Reply #28 on: February 11, 2007, 05:14:07 PM »
I can see by this picture, they are more than friends.
Yeah, that lasted!
Anyway, many women love gay men as friends!†

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He was asked point blank and told the press they were just friends.† So I guess I am just going to take him at his word.

And T.R. Knight never used the "f" word.† †

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IF he [Jake] is as open as we say, then he would have no reason to deny it.

And I've got a bridge I can sell you in NYC!

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As for Heath, no I have never thought he was gay.

What about "bi" as I stated?

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Heath lives in 2007, he has no reason to marry and have a child for any other reason than that he is in love, madly in love, with Michelle, which he has said many many times.

So did Ennis.

Offline merrobot

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Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
« Reply #29 on: February 11, 2007, 05:15:01 PM »
Hey, Shelly - I like your style: "Is society really as accepting as it claims?  Discuss"  :-*

Well, the short answer to that question is 'no' in my opinion.  I think that there is a move towards acceptance but the pace is pretty slow.  In a lot of ways society is "tolerant" of homosexuality and bisexuality but not quite "accepting".  I think this is reflected in the way that some countries are introducing legislation around 'hate crimes' based on sexual orientation, civil partnerships or gay marriage and other measures designed to reduce discrimination and promote equality.

However, many of the issues that have been brought up on this thread already are less to do with homophobia but with heterosexism.  Now, while homophobic comments and actions are much more widely condemed in society (i.e. the individual beliefs of the homophobe), heterosexist attitudes are very often overlooked.  This is because society still promotes the ideas that heterosexuality is "the norm", that the nuclear family is something to be aspired to and celebrated, that in some way being gay or lesbian or bisexual is somehow less desirable.  Advertising is a very good example as you so rarely see same-sex couples portrayed in mainstream media campaigns and where they are, it is usually for "shock value".

I remember having a conversation a few months ago where some friends were having a discussion about the adoption of kids by same-sex parents.  One friend said she thought it was a good idea that kids who otherwise wouldn't have homes would be able to do so but that you wouldn't want to put teenagers into homes with gay adoptive parents of their own sex as she had read a study that it "would make it more likely that they would turn out gay".  This really incensed me as her implication was "and if you make it more likely that someone will become gay then it's less appealing that if they turn out straight."  Sadly, I think a lot of people still share this sentiment - they like gay men, lesbians and bisexuals, they understand that "it's not their fault" ( ::)), but ultimately they still have this belief that "it would have been better for them if they had been born straight".  I don't think my friend is homophobic, in many ways she is hugely accepting of all kinds of people, but she is still influenced in subtle ways (as are all of us to a greater or lesser degree) that will take a long time to overcome.

This is progress, there is hope, but it's baby steps.  :)
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