This is a carry over from the increasingly off topic "The Reunion Scene" thread
I think - and I don't want to put words in people's mouths - that the marginalization comes in when we bill the movie as a universal story tryiing to divorce the boys' homosexuality from the preceedings. Also, by having this movie 'cross over' into the main stream and everyone goes out of their way to show their acceptance because the two men in question behave like what our perceptions of manhood are. It kind of indirectly imply "Hey, at least their not swishy."
I don't think I explained that very well. My own thougts are that whatever gets you to see the film is fine. Once you're in it you will see men loving and your face won't melt off a la Raders of the Lost Ark so it's alright and it doesn't put gay men in the position of being a minstrel (W&G) and they aren't just banging each other like bunnies like (QaF). It's just just so lovely.
Yes, recall the way Oprah vilely mocked "swishy, lisping" gay men and praised the film for not showing them. It is just too easy to force our effeminate brothers back in the closet because those of us masculine-acting gay men can get crossover validation from the movie. That threat is very real and shouldn't be discounted. It's also an issue that women should get exercised about b/c it's basically misogynistic, implying that acting "feminine" is somehow trivial and repulsive, whereas being butch and studly is triumphantly good. I think the movie is smart enough to avoid this pitfall: Ennis's efforts to act "like a man" are sadly misguided, leading only to violence against others (bikers at the fireworks) and himself (fight outside the bar). The more "feminine" Jack (compassionate, self-accepting, able to express emotions) is a target of violence, as the movie shows. To take the film as a validation of "masculine" gay men is to miss its point entirely.
SqualCloud is in my opinion on target. thanks for your thoughts and insights. I generally agree also with Cythra, with some notable exceptions, however. Parenthetically, I did not know Oprah made these comments; so wierd for her! She is surrounded by gay men.
Cythra, where I am coming from is to discuss what the movie is, rather than is not. It IS about masculine men, not about the stereotypes. As such, I do not believe that it attempts to "force" effeminate gays back into the closet. On the contrary, it serves to provide the hallo effect on all gay men that the, finally, opened door on how a truly loving gay relationship can be. As in any form of "selling" (and that is what social change ultimately boils down to), one has to being with a point or points that allow the prospective audience to accept what you are going to say and present.
As I pointed out before, when Spencer Tracy and Kate Hepburn's daughter brought home Sidney Portier, who wouldn't have embraced the idea? A rich, educated, fabulous looking black man! It set the stage for consideration so that in the real world, people were accepting of bringing home much less attractive, much less rich, much less educated black people because of their essence and good human qualities.
The film avoids the "pitfall" of feminine men as being repulsive because there is no such pitfall. Where is this pitfall? Not in W&G; not in QasFolk; not in Bird Cage etc etc.
I also do not consider Ennis' machismo as misguided. His fight with the bikers was protecting his family and surely not an random act of violence against others. His attack on the trucker outside the bar was indeed brutal, but it wasn't his desire to be seen as a man here, he was simply and utterly raging mad and started kicking things around.
Lastly, labeling men who are compassionate, self-accepting, exrpessive of emotion, etc as "feminine" only underscores the stereotyping I think you (all of us in fact) are trying to overcome. We do not know if Jack was really the target of violence but if he was, I doubt very much if his compassion and love for Ennis was the cause.
The film is, in part, a validation that there are "regular" men--the masculine men who is unknown to be gay--who can fall in love in spite of their having chosen a non-gay lifestyle. From this, the movie makes its major point that "forbidden" love is something that can be found and nurtured.