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Author Topic: Last Scene w/ Ennis and Jack Together  (Read 755098 times)

lynn

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Re: Scene: Last Scene w/ Ennis and Jack Together
« Reply #15 on: January 08, 2006, 04:05:08 PM »
Or it could mean that he is thinking about how he really doesn't want to say goodbye. ... So it's perhaps with regret that Jack gives in to temptation, seeing if someone else will give him what Ennis won't: companionship and someone to live with. I find it so sad when he shoots back to Ennis with "We could have had a good life... but you didn't want it."

Yes, agreed, I should have added "reluctantly" to my ideas on Jack's actions. It's clear how much Jack doesn't really want to be with Randall from his distant, sad expression on the bench outside the bar. But I still think he responded to Randall's overture as something, no matter how second-rate, to help fill that hole in his heart.

Offline peteinportland

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Re: Scene: Last Scene w/ Ennis and Jack Together
« Reply #16 on: January 08, 2006, 05:33:49 PM »
But in the book and the screenplay, both tell us: "nothing ended, nothing begun, nothing resolved". That seems to me to speak to the mind of the artists that Jack is not leaving Ennis. However, this is in conflict with the story Jack's dad tells Ennis.

I love that in this scene Jack says "its all right" to comfort Ennis, the same thing he says in the tent on the second night. I've pointed this out somewhere else, but I think these lines have direct bearing on what we are discussing. "Careful there, that horse has a low startle point." Then Jack replies (and I don't think this is exact, so someone help me out): "I have yet to see the horse that can throw me." Well, yes Ennis does have a low startle point, and yes Jack did find a "horse" that can throw him. There  are other references to these guys thinking of one another in terms of their horses, so once again, in this scene, we see Jack dealing with his horse with a low startle point (Ennis) by calming him.

Last thing, when the foreman hits on Jack, what I see in Jack's faraway look at that moment is sadness and decades of longing: not for the foreman, but for Ennis. There is no happiness on jack's face.

lynn

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Re: Scene: Last Scene w/ Ennis and Jack Together
« Reply #17 on: January 08, 2006, 08:19:30 PM »
But in the book and the screenplay, both tell us: "nothing ended, nothing begun, nothing resolved". That seems to me to speak to the mind of the artists that Jack is not leaving Ennis. However, this is in conflict with the story Jack's dad tells Ennis.

Just my interpretation, but I took that line to mean nothing resolved at that moment, meaning, when they parted at the campsite. That does not preclude Jack making a decision to take action later, when he sees Randall at the bar. And so does not conflict with what I see as Annie and Ang clearly stating that Jack and Randall had something going on (although what, we will never know...)
« Last Edit: January 08, 2006, 08:26:37 PM by lynn »

Offline DaveL

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Re: Scene: Last Scene w/ Ennis and Jack Together
« Reply #18 on: January 08, 2006, 09:28:25 PM »
jfitz19, reply 12.  Please see my prior posts on whether J was going to "move on" and what E "knew" in the scene with the parents.  Also, why would the rancher/foreman be more willing to move to Lightning Flat than E, since he is still married and has a good job? J's father is making this up: I posited J's father makes up the part about "this spring" and another one moving up, to hurt E, basing it on the similar story J may have told father, i.e., as he told E shortly before, that he was going to be shot, sneaking off the the rancher's wife.
"Ennis del Mar wakes before five....The shirts hanging on a nail shudder slightly in the draft..It could be bad on the highway with the horsetrailer.He has to be packed and away from the place that morning...The wind strikes the trailer like a load of dirt coming off a dump truck, eases, dies...."

jiml

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Re: Scene: Last Scene w/ Ennis and Jack Together
« Reply #19 on: January 08, 2006, 09:40:27 PM »
jfitz19, reply 12.  Please see my prior posts on whether J was going to "move on" and what E "knew" in the scene with the parents.  Also, why would the rancher/foreman be more willing to move to Lightning Flat than E, since he is still married and has a good job? J's father is making this up: I posited J's father makes up the part about "this spring" and another one moving up, to hurt E, basing it on the similar story J may have told father, i.e., as he told E shortly before, that he was going to be shot, sneaking off the the rancher's wife.
jfitz19, I thought your post was very well reasoned. As far as whether Randall would move up there, we don't know, do we? DaveL, I don't see it likely that the father was making up this story. Jack may have been speaking of plans he had of which Randall had no knowledge. And if Jack proposed it to Randall later, he may have been turned down. Or Randall may have actually agreed...after all, we saw who he was married to. He may have had a "good job" but apparently not a great one. LaShawn was complaining about how little he made. Who knows? I certainly don't. Just one more big ol' mystery.

Offline jfitz19

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Re: Scene: Last Scene w/ Ennis and Jack Together
« Reply #20 on: January 09, 2006, 05:28:41 PM »
jfitz19, reply 12.  Please see my prior posts on whether J was going to "move on" and what E "knew" in the scene with the parents.  Also, why would the rancher/foreman be more willing to move to Lightning Flat than E, since he is still married and has a good job? J's father is making this up: I posited J's father makes up the part about "this spring" and another one moving up, to hurt E, basing it on the similar story J may have told father, i.e., as he told E shortly before, that he was going to be shot, sneaking off the the rancher's wife.

Hey DaveL, have to agree to disagree here.  When constructing my theory regarding Jack  “moving on,” I tried very hard to utilize only what I read in the screenplay and saw on the screen.  Therefore, I have to agree with original jim that we don’t know where Randall’s head was at with the move.  The “problem” I have with your theory is that I believe it does not stand up to the Occam’s Razor principle, which posits, “Given two equally predictive theories, choose the simpler.”  I can find no evidence in the film or screenplay that Jack’s father was lying when he made the statement about the rancher moving up with Jack or that Jack had told his parents anything about an affair with anybody.  I also did read your previous post and do not find any evidence that “Dad is not without guile and cleverness--he wouldn't have achieved any acclaim as a rider had he been otherwise.”  Maybe he was just very athletic.  The only thing we know unequivocally about John Twist is that he was a hateful and abusive father with little regard for his son.  Bottom line here, however, is that we can all interpret the unknowns in this story as we like.  Ultimately there is no “correct” answer for any of them.  Just makes the story more gripping and compelling. 

Offline sapstar

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Re: Scene: Last Scene w/ Ennis and Jack Together
« Reply #21 on: January 09, 2006, 09:14:27 PM »
Where in the script is the line where Ennis says "I just can't take this anymore" (or something like that) ???

Offline Nado

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Re: Scene: Last Scene w/ Ennis and Jack Together
« Reply #22 on: January 10, 2006, 12:30:43 PM »

Jack came to the realization that he had to quit Ennis once and for all - and give Randall a chance to make him happy.

And unfortunately, when Jack leaves the ivory tower that Brokeback Mountain represents, he enters reality and becomes the tragic victim of a hate crime.
"It could be like this - just like this always." - Jack Twist

dkellergrl2001

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Re: Scene: Last Scene w/ Ennis and Jack Together
« Reply #23 on: January 10, 2006, 01:02:51 PM »
Sapstar - That line is not in the screenplay at all, but I'm thinking it's an ad lib on Heath's part.  I love that line actually. It showed that Ennis' just as affected by the years of not really being able to be with Jack.

Where in the script is the line where Ennis says "I just can't take this anymore" (or something like that) ???

Offline David

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Re: Scene: Last Scene w/ Ennis and Jack Together
« Reply #24 on: January 10, 2006, 03:17:52 PM »
But in the book and the screenplay, both tell us: "nothing ended, nothing begun, nothing resolved". That seems to me to speak to the mind of the artists that Jack is not leaving Ennis. However, this is in conflict with the story Jack's dad tells Ennis.

I love that in this scene Jack says "its all right" to comfort Ennis, the same thing he says in the tent on the second night. I've pointed this out somewhere else, but I think these lines have direct bearing on what we are discussing. "Careful there, that horse has a low startle point." Then Jack replies (and I don't think this is exact, so someone help me out): "I have yet to see the horse that can throw me." Well, yes Ennis does have a low startle point, and yes Jack did find a "horse" that can throw him. There  are other references to these guys thinking of one another in terms of their horses, so once again, in this scene, we see Jack dealing with his horse with a low startle point (Ennis) by calming him.

Last thing, when the foreman hits on Jack, what I see in Jack's faraway look at that moment is sadness and decades of longing: not for the foreman, but for Ennis. There is no happiness on jack's face.

Pete, thanks for another good post. I have thought about the note Annie Proulx sent Jake G. explaining that "twist" referred to the strength of thigh and butt muscles to stay on a bronc. I wonder is she told Jake how pleased she was in his portrayal of Jack Twist, who stayed "on" Ennis for as long as he could, until death took him, not by his own hand.
The huge sadness of the Northern plains rolled down on him.

Offline David

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Re: Scene: Last Scene w/ Ennis and Jack Together
« Reply #25 on: January 10, 2006, 03:28:16 PM »
Where in the script is the line where Ennis says "I just can't take this anymore" (or something like that) ???

I thought this line was a really interesting addition (not in the short story). As I had previously posted in an old discussion thread, what Ennis could ultimately not "fix", he was neither able to "stand" either: "Gosh, I can't take this anymore, Jack."



Ennis on a previous occasion: "But if you can't fix it, you got a stand it."
« Last Edit: January 10, 2006, 06:52:19 PM by David »
The huge sadness of the Northern plains rolled down on him.

Offline lightsrays05

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Re: Scene: Last Scene w/ Ennis and Jack Together
« Reply #26 on: January 10, 2006, 06:26:26 PM »
This is the scene that I like most in the movie...

Because we have Ennis always, always saying throughout the movie: "But if you can't fix it, you got a stand it."

And here we have Ennis, the forever "stander" falling on his knees, professing a love that he never quite understood, saying to his beloved - even after threatening him with death - "I can't stand this anymore, Jack!"

That is of such a depth that is unmatchable in the whole movie.

And that's why I like it so much.


« Last Edit: January 10, 2006, 06:31:35 PM by lightsrays05 »

Offline ImEnnisShesJack

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Re: Scene: Last Scene w/ Ennis and Jack Together
« Reply #27 on: January 10, 2006, 06:41:57 PM »
I think the description still holds.  Ennis DOES allow Jack to comfort him on the second try, but he also collapses from the grief and pain of finally verbalizing these emotions.  And they're still holding each other when the scene fades-in to the flashback.
I guess the difference for me goes to the description that "what they've just said is no news: as always, nothing ended, nothing begun, nothing resolved." In the screenplay, I can accept that progression. When seeing Ennis collapse on screen, it's hard for me to think that nothing has changed. Ennis seems completely broken.

He is broken.  Butt he still doesn't give in to his love for Jack.  He gets into his truck and drives away.  Again.
"And when he shall die,
Take him and cut him out in little stars,
And he will make the face of heaven so fine
That all the world will be in love with night."
~~Heath Ledger 1979-2008~~

Carol8159@yahoo.com

Offline David

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Re: Scene: Last Scene w/ Ennis and Jack Together
« Reply #28 on: January 10, 2006, 06:54:12 PM »
Before the final confrontation, one thing I thought was neat was that the movie ended their last scene in the tent (where they had been physical with one another) with Ennis' arm draped over Jack echoing the first scene in the tent (when they had sex) where it all began when Jack took Ennis' arm and "draped" (pulled) it over him. Something that the movie added but that wasn't in the book. I liked it.
The huge sadness of the Northern plains rolled down on him.

Offline Scott88

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Re: Scene: Last Scene w/ Ennis and Jack Together
« Reply #29 on: January 10, 2006, 07:26:52 PM »
Noticed that, too, David.  And the symmetry of showing them inside the tent, then pulling back to an outside shot of the tent in the middle of the wilderness.  A relationship that began and ended in nature--a setting that was both liberating and suffocating in its seclusion.

Ang really is a genius.