The Ultimate Brokeback Forum

Author Topic: Travels with Alexander the Great  (Read 1516384 times)

Offline Nikki

  • Ephemera
  • Obsessed
  • *****
  • Posts: 6842
  • Never enough time, never enough
Re: Travels with Alexander the Great
« Reply #60 on: October 11, 2007, 06:13:53 AM »

Nikki, all I urge is NOT judging ATG by the standards of this civilisation, but to judge him by the standards of HIS civilisation. Their is no similarity really---Hitler didn't fight, he orated lies. Alexander fought himself, generaled himself and gave honest talks to the men.


ALL the Lysippian bronzes of the King are are of course lost. Someday we may find one but for this current age they do not exist. There are a few badly damaged roman copies.



BB, of course I'm NOT judging Alex by modern standards; I'm talking similarities, not actualities.  However, I don't think it's to either of our advantages to continue the discussion on Alex vis a vis Hitler.

Yes, unfortunately the Lysippian bronzes are lost, as we know.
The shirts hanging on a nail shudder slightly in the draft.

If he does not force his attention on it, it might stoke the day, rewarm that old, cold time on the mountain when they owned the world and nothing seemed wrong.

Bliss was it in that dawn to be alive
But to be young was very heaven!

Offline Nikki

  • Ephemera
  • Obsessed
  • *****
  • Posts: 6842
  • Never enough time, never enough
Re: Travels with Alexander the Great
« Reply #61 on: October 11, 2007, 06:53:28 AM »


Plutarch wrote that Apelles painted Alex wielding a thunderbolt, [but] he did not reproduce his colouring at all accurately.  He made Alexander'scomplexion appear too dark-skinned and swarthy, whereas we are told that he was fair-skinned, with a ruddy tinge that showed itself especially upon his face and chest.[/]  Maybe there was another favorite painter?  Doesn't seem like Alex would have favoured someone who didn't reproduce him accurately?
The shirts hanging on a nail shudder slightly in the draft.

If he does not force his attention on it, it might stoke the day, rewarm that old, cold time on the mountain when they owned the world and nothing seemed wrong.

Bliss was it in that dawn to be alive
But to be young was very heaven!

Offline magicmountain

  • Obsessed
  • *****
  • Posts: 4921
  • Anything interesting up there in heaven?
Re: Travels with Alexander the Great
« Reply #62 on: October 11, 2007, 06:04:02 PM »
Like her? – You can have her!


It is said that while sketching one of Alexander the Great's concubines, Campaspe, Apelles fell in love with her. As a mark of appreciation for the painter's work, Alexander presented her to him. (This is the subject of a number paintings such as the one shown above.) I wonder what Campaspe thought about that?

Alex must have kept her under wraps – I thought Barsine was his only mistress.  According to the historian Aelianus, it seems that she was his first girlfriend. Perhaps the whole story is apocryphal. Perhaps he tried it once and didn't like it LOL!

PS Nikki several sources say that Alex forbade anyone but Apelles to paint his portrait and only Lysippos could sculpt him.
The power of Love came into me
and I became fierce like a lion
then tender like the evening star - Rumi

Offline Nikki

  • Ephemera
  • Obsessed
  • *****
  • Posts: 6842
  • Never enough time, never enough
Re: Travels with Alexander the Great
« Reply #63 on: October 11, 2007, 08:06:09 PM »
Like her? – You can have her!


It is said that while sketching one of Alexander the Great's concubines, Campaspe, Apelles fell in love with her. As a mark of appreciation for the painter's work, Alexander presented her to him. (This is the subject of a number paintings such as the one shown above.) I wonder what Campaspe thought about that?

Alex must have kept her under wraps – I thought Barsine was his only mistress.  According to the historian Aelianus, it seems that she was his first girlfriend. Perhaps the whole story is apocryphal. Perhaps he tried it once and didn't like it LOL!

PS Nikki several sources say that Alex forbade anyone but Apelles to paint his portrait and only Lysippos could sculpt him.


Was that from TPB -- I read it somewhere -- can't remember

Plutarch said Alex considered Lysippus, the only artist whom Alex considered worthy to represent him --  probably as a sculptor.  Whereas when Apelles painted Alex  wielding a thunderbolt, Plutarch said Lyp did not capture his coloring.  Oh well, everyone has an off day!
The shirts hanging on a nail shudder slightly in the draft.

If he does not force his attention on it, it might stoke the day, rewarm that old, cold time on the mountain when they owned the world and nothing seemed wrong.

Bliss was it in that dawn to be alive
But to be young was very heaven!

Offline magicmountain

  • Obsessed
  • *****
  • Posts: 4921
  • Anything interesting up there in heaven?
Re: Travels with Alexander the Great
« Reply #64 on: October 11, 2007, 08:11:30 PM »
Bagoas the Beautiful 


How could we have come this far without mentioning Bagoas – the beautiful boy (a eunuch actually) who was presented to Alexander as a gift by Nabarzanes – a Persian lord who surrendered to the new Great King?

Bagoas – protagonist of Mary Renault’s famous historical novel The Persian Boy – was referred to in historical sources as Alexander's eromenos (beloved) – the only person so described. (It is assumed that in turn Alexander was the beloved of Hephaistion.)

The historian Curtius writes:

Nabarzanes, having received safe conduct, met Alexander bringing great gifts. Among these was Bagoas, a eunuch of remarkable beauty and in the very flower of boyhood, who had been loved by Darius and was afterwards to be loved by Alexander.

Watch as Bagoas first meets the king

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LAx9aUVedY4&mode=related&search=

Here is Bagoas performing an erotic dance before the court (wolf whistles offstage.)



Watch the dance on YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQNJHYlin98

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qcB1hpaModQ

After watching the performance, Alexander plants a passionate kiss on Bagoas in front of everyone!



This public kiss is confirmed by historical sources. Mary Renault takes up the story:


“History next knows Bagoas some six years later when the anecdote of the kiss in the theatre is given by Plutarch and Athenaeus. The location in Karmania is highly significant.; there Alexander still had with him only those who had followed him through India and the desert march. After all these vicissitudes, Bagoas was not only still high in his affection, but evidently well liked by the xenophobe Macedonian troops, in itself surprising. Alexander always repaid with lifelong loyalty a personal devotion, and this seems likeliest explanation of such a long attachment.” (Not to mention the hot sex! Other sources believe that “Alexander's personal commitment to him seems to have attained levels of sexual intimacy that his Greek and Macedonian courtiers found embarrassing”.)


The Kiss in the theatre is attested to by no less than three historians:

Athenaeus writes:

Alexander “was so overcome with love for the eunuch Bagoas that, in full view of the entire theatre, he, bending over, caressed Bagoas fondly, and when the audience clapped and shouted in applause, he, nothing loath, again bent over and kissed him.”

Plutarch writes:

“When he reached the royal palace of Gedrosia, Alexander once again gave the army some recreation by arranging a festival. Bagoas, whose lover he was, won a dancing prize and came through the theatre in his finery and seated himself next to the king. Seeing this, the Macedonians clapped in applause and loudly called for Alexander to kiss him, until eventually, the king took him in his arms and gave him a kiss.”

Curtius writes:

“After Alexander emerged from the Makran desert and his only defeat and the loss of two thirds of his army, he held games in which the young Bagoas won the dancing (and singing competition in the games held to cheer up the troops) and dressed in his garlands of honour , he passed through the theatre and took his seat, as a champion of the dance, by Alexander's side; the Macedonians saw and applauded and shouted to the king to kiss the victor, until at last, he threw his arms around Bagoas and kissed him again and again.”

« Last Edit: October 12, 2007, 01:52:02 AM by magicmountain »
The power of Love came into me
and I became fierce like a lion
then tender like the evening star - Rumi

Offline Brokeback_1

  • Obsessed
  • *****
  • Posts: 5671
Re: Travels with Alexander the Great
« Reply #65 on: October 11, 2007, 09:35:09 PM »
Curtius was an unbelievably silly jackass. Atheneus  I THINK got it from Plutarch. Plutarch supposedlty derived that story from Ptolemy, and is the most reliable.

Thus were stories passed in the ancient world.

Bagoas must have been both astute and well liked to not just survive but thrive among those xenophobic macedonians!
There was some open space between what he knew and what he tried to believe but nothing could be done about it, & if you can't fix it, you've got to stand it

Offline magicmountain

  • Obsessed
  • *****
  • Posts: 4921
  • Anything interesting up there in heaven?
Re: Travels with Alexander the Great
« Reply #66 on: October 11, 2007, 09:37:26 PM »
Cutting the Gordian Knot

One day, according to ancient Greek legend, a poor peasant called Gordius arrived with his wife in a public square of Phrygia (modern day Turkey) in an ox cart. As chance would have it, so the legend continues, an oracle had previously informed the populace that their future king would come into town riding in a wagon.

Seeing Gordius, therefore, the people made him king. In gratitude, Gordius dedicated his ox cart to Zeus, tying it up with a highly intricate knot - the Gordian knot. Another oracle foretold that the person who untied the knot would rule all of Asia.

The problem of untying the Gordian knot resisted all attempted solutions until the year 333 B.C., when Alexander the Great -- not known for his lack of ambition when it came to ruling Asia -- cut through it with a sword.

Click here for an explanation of how the Gordion knot was formed.
www.maa.org/devlin/devlin_9_01.html

Meanwhile back on the march …



Hey Alex! You gonna hang around untying knots all day? Let’s get!
« Last Edit: October 11, 2007, 10:40:17 PM by magicmountain »
The power of Love came into me
and I became fierce like a lion
then tender like the evening star - Rumi

Offline Brokeback_1

  • Obsessed
  • *****
  • Posts: 5671
Re: Travels with Alexander the Great
« Reply #67 on: October 11, 2007, 09:41:05 PM »
I'm curius---do any of you think his cutting the knot, after looking at it and being baffled, was nothing so much as the impatience of a very young guy who couldn't be bothered with bullsh*t?
There was some open space between what he knew and what he tried to believe but nothing could be done about it, & if you can't fix it, you've got to stand it

Offline magicmountain

  • Obsessed
  • *****
  • Posts: 4921
  • Anything interesting up there in heaven?
Re: Travels with Alexander the Great
« Reply #68 on: October 11, 2007, 09:45:06 PM »
Curtius was an unbelievably silly jackass. Atheneus  I THINK got it from Plutarch. Plutarch supposedlty derived that story from Ptolemy, and is the most reliable.

Thus were stories passed in the ancient world.

Bagoas must have been both astute and well liked to not just survive but thrive among those xenophobic macedonians!

Unfortunately none of the orginal sources survive and so all the historical writings we rely on date from around 500 years after Alex's death. Those authors, of course, had access to the orginal histories written by Alexander's contemporaries. Arrian (the historian most liked by Mary Renault and the most pro Alexander) based his writings on Ptolemy's history. That probably went up in smoke along with everything else when the great library in Alexandria burnt down.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2007, 01:55:00 AM by magicmountain »
The power of Love came into me
and I became fierce like a lion
then tender like the evening star - Rumi

Offline Brokeback_1

  • Obsessed
  • *****
  • Posts: 5671
Re: Travels with Alexander the Great
« Reply #69 on: October 11, 2007, 10:12:15 PM »
That's the thing--there were many copies of Ptolemy, not just in the Great Library. What burned during the Alexandrian War was not even the main library>>>it was the storehouse, the place where books were catelogued FOR the main library and copied for other libraries. They had something like a 15 or 20 year backlog in the storehouse, mainly 'modern works' when it burned.. What was destroyed was very replaceable, they were new works.

I think the loss of Ptolemy is due more to the 4th Crusade, to France and Venice, then anything else. There are Byzantine mentions of Ptolemy, but as is the case with the Byzantine mentions of all the lost Aeschylan and sophoclean plays[ just to START] there is no mention after 1204.

The western Christians used the contents of the Imperial Libraries for cooking fires.
There was some open space between what he knew and what he tried to believe but nothing could be done about it, & if you can't fix it, you've got to stand it

Offline magicmountain

  • Obsessed
  • *****
  • Posts: 4921
  • Anything interesting up there in heaven?
Re: Travels with Alexander the Great
« Reply #70 on: October 12, 2007, 05:49:44 AM »
Images of Alexander

While we know more or less what Alexander looked like in real life, this hasn't stopped artists from imagining their own version of the man.


Alexander the Wunderkind




Alexander the Renaissance Gentleman




Alexander the Hun




Alexander the Medieval Knight




Alexander the Conquering Hero




Alexander the Bored Teenager




Alexander Agonistes




Alexander the Aztec




Alexander as Mughal Emperor




Blue Alexander




Alexander the Cartoon Character




Alexander as Action Figure




Alexander as Fearsome Warrior




Alexander as Metaphor




Alexander the Glorious Being




Alexander as Fantasy Figure




Slashy Alexander




Alexander anime




Alexander as ………Whoever!




Alexander as he saw Himself?

« Last Edit: October 12, 2007, 05:35:16 PM by magicmountain »
The power of Love came into me
and I became fierce like a lion
then tender like the evening star - Rumi

Offline Nikki

  • Ephemera
  • Obsessed
  • *****
  • Posts: 6842
  • Never enough time, never enough
Re: Travels with Alexander the Great
« Reply #71 on: October 12, 2007, 08:20:52 AM »


Jo, great reproductions!! Haven't decided which Alex I like best -- so many Alexes; so little time. LOL
The shirts hanging on a nail shudder slightly in the draft.

If he does not force his attention on it, it might stoke the day, rewarm that old, cold time on the mountain when they owned the world and nothing seemed wrong.

Bliss was it in that dawn to be alive
But to be young was very heaven!

Offline Brokeback_1

  • Obsessed
  • *****
  • Posts: 5671
Re: Travels with Alexander the Great
« Reply #72 on: October 12, 2007, 09:46:22 AM »
coin
glorious being
cartoon!
There was some open space between what he knew and what he tried to believe but nothing could be done about it, & if you can't fix it, you've got to stand it

Offline Brokeback_1

  • Obsessed
  • *****
  • Posts: 5671
Re: Travels with Alexander the Great
« Reply #73 on: October 12, 2007, 09:47:30 AM »
Oh yeah---and the Jack Twist as Alexander fanfic somebody said they wrote!
There was some open space between what he knew and what he tried to believe but nothing could be done about it, & if you can't fix it, you've got to stand it

Offline magicmountain

  • Obsessed
  • *****
  • Posts: 4921
  • Anything interesting up there in heaven?
Re: Travels with Alexander the Great
« Reply #74 on: October 12, 2007, 04:20:34 PM »
Oh yeah---and the Jack Twist as Alexander fanfic somebody said they wrote!

Jackarander the Great



Shit I can’t wait til I conquer the world. I won’t have to put up with Joe Aguirre’s crap anymore.
The power of Love came into me
and I became fierce like a lion
then tender like the evening star - Rumi