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Author Topic: BBM General Discussion 2  (Read 295792 times)

Offline BJ

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Re: BBM General Discussion 2
« Reply #2445 on: August 08, 2017, 08:20:58 PM »
Hey BlueAmber, thanks for joining in!

I always thought the statement "...getting up off his pockets ...and in to the control zone".....meant he was always broke and he needed to make some cash which would give him more control of his life.
Ok, that makes sense. So, no hidden meaning or messages to Ennis? ^^

The "...sliding the panel of the dream etc..."  I thought meant he was going to save the best part of his dream till he had more time and chance to go over it in his mind and savour the best parts. Almost like he could "re-live it "
Mmm.. ok, i understand it regarding the panel. I had actually the problem with that sentence structure saying "If
he does not force his attention on it, it might stoke the day..." but then he goes ahead and lets that panel slide forward, so it sounded contradictory to me.

Offline BJ

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Re: BBM General Discussion 2
« Reply #2446 on: August 08, 2017, 08:44:29 PM »
Isn't that how many, if not all, people think of their first love, especially when they meet as teenagers or in their early twenties, like Jack and Ennis? Young, fresh-faced? Such vivid memories - even if it was decades ago. No matter how old you get, or your partner... there's always that glimpse of the younger you or him / her in your head.

Hey BlueJeanJeannie!
I understand the urge, but in my idea of perfect and eternal love there cannot be any exclusion of non-favorable parts of a person. This is probably just my wishful thinking, but in my idea Ennis must also love the old Jack even though it must be hard for him to remember that sad face. But that Jack is also part of the whole "Jack" package and i think it would be in a way cowardly and abnegating to leave that part of Jack completely out of his memories.

Sure, i am not saying that Ennis can control what he dreams of. But it's mentioned in the book on purpose and i wondered why the dreams were specified in a way that it's the young Jack Ennis is dreaming about. The book also says that after waking sometimes the pillow was wet - implying crying and grief - and sometimes the sheets - implying good memories and that "joy and release". So, it must be both. I do wish Ennis has dreams of *all* Jacks and not only the young one. Then i don't understand why Annie had the need to point out that it was young Jack... So, i wondered whether it was only at the beginning and changed with the time as Ennis gradually came to terms with what happened between him and Jack.

Offline BJ

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Re: BBM General Discussion 2
« Reply #2447 on: August 08, 2017, 09:05:46 PM »
Hm... I think this all leads to the ultimate question - Was Ennis ever able to change??
In my opinion the movie and the short story give us two different (opposite) answers. Short story = no; movie = yes.
So, maybe my whole problems with understanding this origin from me mixing the two versions of the story...  ???

Offline Sara B

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Re: BBM General Discussion 2
« Reply #2448 on: August 08, 2017, 11:51:51 PM »
^^^^^
We all understand that difficulty, BJ! For me anyway it require great mental discipline to separate the two...
There were only the two of them on the mountain flying in the euphoric, bitter air, looking down on the hawk's back and the crawling lights of vehicles on the plain below, suspended above ordinary affairs....

Offline BJ

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Re: BBM General Discussion 2
« Reply #2449 on: August 09, 2017, 01:57:31 AM »
Yeah, Sara... There is some open space between what i know and what i want to believe, you know... Lots of wishful thinking and own constructing.
I think i know when my Brokeback-fever will be cured - the day somebody convinces me that my constructs do not make sense!

So, tell me - do i make sense with my thoughts?  :)

Offline Sara B

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Re: BBM General Discussion 2
« Reply #2450 on: August 09, 2017, 02:22:53 AM »
What can I say, when you put it like that? ;D

Anyway, it's far too soon for you to recover... You just have to continue to suffer - and enjoy it!
There were only the two of them on the mountain flying in the euphoric, bitter air, looking down on the hawk's back and the crawling lights of vehicles on the plain below, suspended above ordinary affairs....

Offline BlueAmber63

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Re: BBM General Discussion 2
« Reply #2451 on: August 09, 2017, 10:47:40 AM »
Hey BlueAmber, thanks for joining in!
Ok, that makes sense. So, no hidden meaning or messages to Ennis? ^^

No...no hidden means in this statement ....not to me anyway.
It's almost like telling some one to " Get up off your ass and do something " !
                                                 *****

May I just add....re: Ennis dreaming about Jack when he was young,like when
they first met . My father...who died when he was 89yrs old ...when I dream about him...as I do sometimes.......he is as I remember him when he was young and strong. Many people dream of there loved one's when they were in their prime
and not (as in lots of cases) elderly and ill. May be it's our minds helping us to
cope with the situation.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2017, 10:56:25 AM by BlueAmber63 »

Offline BJ

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Re: BBM General Discussion 2
« Reply #2452 on: August 09, 2017, 07:03:05 PM »
Many people dream of there loved one's when they were in their prime and not (as in lots of cases) elderly and ill. May be it's our minds helping us to cope with the situation.

Oh, THANKS, that makes a LOT of sense! Ok, i'm convinced now  :D

Offline BJ

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Re: BBM General Discussion 2
« Reply #2453 on: August 09, 2017, 07:03:46 PM »
What can I say, when you put it like that? ;D

Anyway, it's far too soon for you to recover... You just have to continue to suffer - and enjoy it!

 :laugh: thanks, Sara, so true!

Offline BJ

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Re: BBM General Discussion 2
« Reply #2454 on: August 09, 2017, 07:09:08 PM »
So, how about another question?

When Ennis and Jack are at the bar after Aguirre's trailer and Jack is telling Ennis "It's my second year up here. Last year one storm the lightnin' kilt 42 sheep" - just why does Ennis have this kind of look on his face? Kind of shocked and "what is this guy talking about??" face? Can you spell his thoughts for me?

Offline BlueJeanJeannie

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Re: BBM General Discussion 2
« Reply #2455 on: August 10, 2017, 06:43:06 AM »
Ennis is a man of very few words... while Jack is a man of many words  :laugh:  Plus Jack is slightly cocky at first, likes to brag a little, especially likes to talk about his rodeoin' (also in that scene). I think it was all a bit much to take in for Ennis. Remember, that was the first time they met.

Have you read any of the "Scene-by-scene" threads already, BJ? Those were the first I read when I started reading here. Was so much fun!
Chaos is order yet undeciphered.

Offline BlueAmber63

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Re: BBM General Discussion 2
« Reply #2456 on: August 10, 2017, 03:44:31 PM »
So, how about another question?

When Ennis and Jack are at the bar after Aguirre's trailer and Jack is telling Ennis "It's my second year up here. Last year one storm the lightnin' kilt 42 sheep" - just why does Ennis have this kind of look on his face? Kind of shocked and "what is this guy talking about??" face? Can you spell his thoughts for me?

I think the simple answer to that question is ...that Ennis was surprised that Aguirre had the nerve to blame Jack for something that was completely out of his control. Act of God so to speak ! But also I think Ennis had a bit of trouble understanding the "big" word "asphyxiated" but was too embarrassed to ask what
he/it meant. Hence the surprised look on Ennis face at Jack using such a word !  Don't forget....we are talking about poor ignorant cowboys here !!
 

Offline Ministering angel

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Re: BBM General Discussion 2
« Reply #2457 on: August 12, 2017, 06:32:53 PM »
Marian, thank you very much for your thoughts on this!
IMHO: Ennis punches Jack because Jack made fun of their situation. Ennis is terrified of what comes "after the mountain" and the fact that he does not see any solution only multiplies that fear. He is paralyzed and stuck in his panic. Jack comes around and does actually the worst thing he can do - he starts a physical interaction with Ennis, which is always Ennis' way to express his emotions. Ennis' tight spring recoils. I would say that was really just a natural reaction and had nothing to do with Earl... If you look at that scene again you can actually see that Ennis is already pushing Jack against the ground in a not really playful manner. I think he was going to punch Jack anyway even without Jack getting him first (unintentionally).

The punch in the film is different to the original SS punch. A few years back it was mentioned that as Jack (talking film here) starts to mop up the blood he starts making soft remarks as if he's soothing a child, stuff like "You're okay, sweetie." At that point Ennis hauls back and punches him. It's sort of like his masculinity and toughness are called into question by Jack's approach.

However, in the SS it's made clear that Ennis doesn't react to the knee to the nose (and remember that he is a man of 'lightning-fast reflexes'), but it appears to be the ministering, the up close actions of Jack, along with the injury to his nose (and the point is made that Earl's nose is 'tore down from skiddin on gravel') which triggers something.
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Back to your point that Ennis is dreaming of the still hopeful Jack. In my opinion this is not how "working through everything" (as you put it) works. If Ennis only focuses on the happy stuff, then there is not much change from the Ennis in the lake confrontation who does not want to know "all them things". In my books, coming to terms with what happened between E&J must also encompass acknowledgement and acceptance of the bad stuff, too - including the fact that Jack's dreams never came to pass because of Ennis' fears. If Ennis really, truly means to change and work on himself by saying "Jack, i swear..." (as i believe he meant it) then it must also include examination of his destructive patterns and their consequences. Focusing only on the most happy stuff, turning ones back on "all them things" will preclude any growth for Ennis - and this is something i do not want to believe. That's why my question whether you think his dreams changed over the time. If you say yourself that Ennis' way to work everything through was by having those dreams...
This is Ennis we're talking about :D He's got a bit to work through, I think. There's one aspect of the prologue which - for me - is crucial. He pisses in the sink. Sure, it's a way of indicating he's a bit of a loser living alone (in Accordion Crimes, Annie Proulx writes about people too dumb to pull the plug out when pissing in the sink) but it also reminds me that baby Jack was beaten by his father for failing to urinate in the correct place, i.e. the toilet, and that occasion was when Jack realised he was less than his father - 'missing material' - and became resigned to the understanding he'd never get it right with the old man. I think that in doing that simple and not especially uncommon act, Ennis is aligning himself with Jack. Better late than never, I guess.

Offline Ministering angel

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Re: BBM General Discussion 2
« Reply #2458 on: August 12, 2017, 06:49:26 PM »
Hm... I think this all leads to the ultimate question - Was Ennis ever able to change??
In my opinion the movie and the short story give us two different (opposite) answers. Short story = no; movie = yes.
So, maybe my whole problems with understanding this origin from me mixing the two versions of the story...  ???
I guess what I just posted is an answer to your question. I think he does change, but it's in a safe, private place where he learns to live with the truth in his own way. The need to breathe Jack's scent in the shirts as he realises the truth, the buying of the postcard, the building of his little shrine and his oath - to me, these are signs of a fundamental change in his thinking. He begins to see that it was love, not just sex. Heath breathing 'I love you' into those shirts was a perfect touch. I must find out if it was scripted.

Offline BJ

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Re: BBM General Discussion 2
« Reply #2459 on: August 13, 2017, 07:36:30 PM »
Ennis is a man of very few words... while Jack is a man of many words  :laugh:  Plus Jack is slightly cocky at first, likes to brag a little, especially likes to talk about his rodeoin' (also in that scene). I think it was all a bit much to take in for Ennis. Remember, that was the first time they met.

I think the simple answer to that question is ...that Ennis was surprised that Aguirre had the nerve to blame Jack for something that was completely out of his control. Act of God so to speak ! But also I think Ennis had a bit of trouble understanding the "big" word "asphyxiated" but was too embarrassed to ask what
he/it meant. Hence the surprised look on Ennis face at Jack using such a word !  Don't forget....we are talking about poor ignorant cowboys here !!

No... I'm not convinced  ::). Everybody do me a favor and watch the scene for me? ;D Ennis' reaction which i'm puzzled about definitely starts upon Jack saying "Last year one storm the lightnin' kilt 42 sheep". The word "asphyxiated" was not even spoken yet and so the other stuff about Aguirre being mad with Jack for not controlling the weather. Although, you're right that Ennis shifts his eyes from directly looking at Jack to the side upon "asphyxiated" word and then slowly back to his beer - embarrassed, still trying to figure out?

I don't know, is Ennis just being surprised that a lightning can kill off 42 sheep? Simple as that?]
I think i'll go with that unless you have any other bright ideas! :D

Have you read any of the "Scene-by-scene" threads already, BJ? Those were the first I read when I started reading here. Was so much fun!
BlueJeanJeannie, i know, there are hundreds of pages on those threads. I hope i can read them all, but it will still take a while...