BBM General Discussion 2

[BJ]

Hm.... This died off quite quickly... 

I still would like to know everybody's thoughts on f2f issue. Especially Marian since she's an early advocate of the idea.

What happened? Everybody off to the eclipse? Still re-watching the movie? Off into holidays due to being August? Wind blows the dirt, tumbleweeds roll...

[CellarDweller115]

I'm bringing a quote from Sue (BlueAmber) from  another thread to this one,  because my reply better fits  this thread.

.....but is hoping Jack is assuaged with a promise of them meeting up "every now and then".   Jacks disappointment is over whelming. He cannot see any future except for a few passion filled fleeting days when life would begin ...... and then end... till the next time.   Jack knows he will agree to this.   Anything.....is better than nothing.

Sue,  this quote is one of the reasons that I think a "remake" of Brokeback won't happen.  The film is set from the 60s through the 80s.  Gay men were forced into the closet, and really didn't have many options of meeting each other, besides bars and  bathhouses, maybe  in personal ads in the back of certain magazines.

Now, there gay organizations, sport teams, online forums, Twitter, Facebook,  Pride events, groups on school campuses,  the same sense of "isolation" isn't there, so if remake is  done in the future,  the generations that follow won't be able to relate  to it,  the same way that people did 11 years ago.

[BlueJeanJeannie]

... if [a] remake is done in the future,  the generations that follow won't be able to relate to it,  the same way that people did 11 years ago.

Well, that - and Heath's death. I truly believe that Heath's (film) Ennis is so iconic by now (and sort of untouchable), that the industry will think twice about doing a remake. I wish I could say Jake's performance as Jack is as iconic as Heath's Ennis (it is to me!), but ultimately... in general BBM the movie will always be viewed as one of Heath's most impressive roles, I think - simply because of his untimely passing.

It's different for the stage, obviously.

[CellarDweller115]

Yes  Sonja, that's also a factor. 

While Heath's performance is iconic, all of the main actors were given rave reviews for their performances, it will be extremely difficult for anyone to find four more people to give stand-out performances for the same roles and story.

it would always be held up to the original in comparison.

[BlueJeanJeannie]

While Heath's performance is iconic...

I can see another iconic (film) Joker in the future (Jared Leto?), as that character is part of a on-going series somehow, but another film Ennis? No way.

Same goes for Jake's Jack, in my opinion - he's just as iconic. But somehow Jake got less credit for it over the years. I've always wondered why.

BBM is very much Heath's movie, somehow. Understandable - but sometimes frustrating.

Both men were breathtaking. And Michelle and Anne are still Alma and Lureen to me 

[Sara B]

I think Jake showed such sensitivity as Jack. You can see the emotions washing over his face and in his eyes.

[ingmarnicebbmt]

@Sara & Sonja: Yes and yes.

[BlueJeanJeannie]

I think Jake showed such sensitivity as Jack. You can see the emotions washing over his face and in his eyes.

Particularly in his eyes! Especially in the scene where Jack drives away from Ennis and looks back at him in his rear view mirror. The sadness in those eyes...     That's the scene that got to me.

Uhm. I now see I've used the word "somehow" quite a lot in my previous post. Sorry. Somehow 

[CellarDweller115]

Same goes for Jake's Jack, in my opinion - he's just as iconic. But somehow Jake got less credit for it over the years. I've always wondered why.

One of our members questioned Diana Ossana about this, I believe it was Jenny, if I recall correctly.  I'll see if it was, and if she'll tell the story.

[gattaca]

Particularly in his eyes! Especially in the scene where Jack drives away from Ennis and looks back at him in his rear view mirror. The sadness in those eyes...     That's the scene that got to me.

There are many powerful scenes in the film - and this is one of my favorites also.  It focuses you in multiple planes and time and emotions.  As Jack is driving away, he has only a small mirror to focus on and the images are growing smaller and smaller.  Jack's eyes and those ever smaller images in the tiny rear-view mirror represent Ennis being ripped from Jack both visually and emotionally.  What Jack cannot see but we do is what Ennis does when he ducks into the alley.  And in the few  scenes before that, where they are standing at the truck, Jack delivers another kick with those eyes when he asks about coming back next year. 
V.

[CellarDweller115]

So much is said even when nothing is  said.

[BlueAmber63]

So much is said even when nothing is  said.

Sign of a good actor.

"It's not what you say.....it's the silences in between."

[Ministering angel]

Hey, Marian,
regarding this issue again, i found some recent posts on this in the Reunion thread and the point you were trying to make is now more clear to me. Though, i still don't like it. I'm aware it's in a way immature to say "i don't like it", but i think i have a right to say what stories i like and what i don't. I have to say i have a huge problem with that face to face issue. I think i wrote some long post on this at the Dozy Embrace thread. IF the SS really implies that there was absolutely no face to face moment (even so brief) at the mountain and IF it's true what you (and some others) suggest now that "i'm not queer" comment was triggered by something face to face that Jack had tried and was rejected and that even the punch was triggered by Ennis considering Jack's ministering as a face to face action (feels so ridiculous!) - then i have to say that i hate the short story! No, i cannot relate, no, i don't have pity with any of the characters, no, i don't think they were able to be saved,... IF so, then i don't have any kind word left for Ennis for what he'd done to Jack and i also don't have any respect for Jack for putting up with Ennis' bullshit for 20 years and even get himself killed because of that. And i don't feel ANY love in this kind of story. "Force of nature"?! Bullshit! If Ennis is THAT much in denial, there CANNOT be any love there. And if there is no love in this story, then i'm gone.

It would be interesting to hear how you describe Ennis' love towards Jack with no face to face action. And in your interpretation of the story, do you assume that face to face issue changed after the reunion's kiss? You used to post about the lock being opened, so does this mean you think their times together shifted towards being more "romantic" after the reunion?


What i constantly have to think on is this quote (from the bible?):We know that the story of Brokeback Mountain is one of at least 20 years, which means that the characters, their actions, feelings, thoughts should change with the time. Same is valid for the viewer, too. I am 35 now and i don't know anymore whether i had the same kind of insight as i have now when i was 19. I suppose not. Was a 19 year old Ennis different in his actions than a 31 year old Ennis? How different would he be? Means, i could buy this "absolutely no face to face" notion if it's only limited to the time on the mountain, but then i need some great loving moments after that for me to leave that dark place of no loving. And there is no mentioning of such in the SS. [That's why i guess i go with the movie version...]

Hi, Julia.

The way I see it is that with the reunion kiss the restrictions are off, so for the rest of the sixteen years the relationship is considerably more varied than it is on the mountain. As you indicate, there aren't any real "loving" moments after the reunion. We have to imagine everything. To be honest, I don't ever see Ennis being loving in a romantic, conscious sense at any time with Jack. To admit to such a thing would be tantamount to admitting to being queer, and Ennis isn't about to do that. Even in the last argument, Jack complains about the scarcity of high altitude fucks and time spent together rather than the lack of love; WE know he's dying inside from what's happening but he daren't say anything more.

It's hard to condense all my thoughts into a few sentences but I'll waffle on and see where I get.

To me, the story isn't entirely natural despite appearances (and while I know most fiction isn't strictly natural since an author picks and chooses and arranges to make a point, there are many stories which are pretty close to natural). BBM is tightly constructed around some recurring ideas. The time on the mountain is like a fable: it's the physical acting out of mental states. So Ennis will not physically face Jack in intimate moments while on the mountain, then later on he will not metaphorically do it. He will not face up to the truth and admit to himself that he loves Jack. (There's an allegorical retelling of the story later on when their last trip is recounted in great detail but if you head to the Structure thread you'll find I raved on about these things in enormous and obsessive detail.)

You ask why Jack puts up with it for so long. Right at the end of the story we learn of two crucial scenes: the Dozy Embrace and the time when Jack's father beat him. Jack is like a neglected puppy who craves love and who keeps trying to get it despite everything. Furthermore, he knows Ennis is capable of love (or thinks he knows) because he sensed it once in that magical moment of the DE. Yes, it's a hard story.

You might have come across the archived thread Kissing On Brokeback: Does It Mean Love? (You'll recognise it by the massive pools of congealed blood surrounding it  ) Many posters found the literal idea of no face-to-face a step too far and too hard to take so you're not alone. As Annie Proulx said, it's about destructive rural homophobia, and that destruction is brought down upon what ought to have been a healthy relationship. It's a killer.

[CellarDweller115]

Kissing On Brokeback: Does It Mean Love? (You'll recognise it by the massive pools of congealed blood surrounding it  )

[BJ]

Dear Marian,

First i have to - again - say thank you for your continuous replies to my rants. You're like some kind of original guru of BBM and your posts are of immense importance to me  .

Kissing On Brokeback: Does It Mean Love?

Thanks for this hint! It looks extremely interesting and on the first page only there are great arguments presented. I will need some time to go through it, but in the meantime...


OK, let's say on Brokeback they did not embrace face to face, there was no kissing, no other face to face situations [i don't know, if you say that even Jack's ministering was too close to a face to face situation (for Ennis), then anything like handing over the whiskey, discussing the place for the camp, just looking into each other's eyes would fall into the same category to me!!!], then why on earth is the Dozy Embrace THE driving force for Jack to come back for 20 years?! Why is it *not* the reunion kiss?? We know face to face was extremely important to Jack, so why doesn't he remember the reunion kiss as THE exhibition of love by Ennis? Or did Jack feel no love in the reunion kiss?
Furthermore, why is the time on the mountain remembered as a sacred time by both of them if they did move forward (past the face to face issue) after the reunion? I just cannot wrap my mind around it...

I read your fanfic story "The Kiss" a while back and i now understand where it comes from. I absolutely agree with you that IF we accept the suggestion of no kissing and no face to face on Brokeback, then Ennis must have some really aggressive characteristics / tendencies and this story of yours would totally fit with this interpretation of the story. Even more, while your story would fit, Annie's story would still feel quite unnatural and artificial.

You ask why Jack puts up with it for so long. Right at the end of the story we learn of two crucial scenes: the Dozy Embrace and the time when Jack's father beat him. Jack is like a neglected puppy who craves love and who keeps trying to get it despite everything.

I agree with you. Recently i read "Beans and Crazies" and had some thoughts of my own and i came to the same conclusion that Jack is somebody who has a destructive pattern of his own - which is (unconsciously) seeking rejection and holding onto it to gain acknowledgement, against all common sense and pain involved. Coming to think of it, maybe it was not quite a coincidence that he had L.D. as father-in-law and maybe that was the driving force for him to stay in the marriage with Lureen (rather than keeping up "normal" appearance for Ennis).

To me, the story isn't entirely natural despite appearances (and while I know most fiction isn't strictly natural since an author picks and chooses and arranges to make a point, there are many stories which are pretty close to natural). BBM is tightly constructed around some recurring ideas. The time on the mountain is like a fable: it's the physical acting out of mental states. So Ennis will not physically face Jack in intimate moments while on the mountain, then later on he will not metaphorically do it. He will not face up to the truth and admit to himself that he loves Jack. (There's an allegorical retelling of the story later on when their last trip is recounted in great detail but if you head to the Structure thread you'll find I raved on about these things in enormous and obsessive detail.)

It's good that you say that. I also feel that at some places the short story is a bit forced because of Annie's intentions.
One of the reasons why i was so affected by the story (or movie?) was that i felt the story and characters to be impossibly real and true in their humanity. I saw the movie first and i do think that it gives the short story a lot of soul, so probably it was Ang Lee's version that had that effect on me rather than Annie's story. If you start to take apart Annie's story you start to see its construct, its artificialness and by doing so you take away that human factor which makes it less believable. Would you agree? (Alternative question is - could you do the same with the movie?)
If you agree, then i would go further and suggest that we cannot trust the short story and its subtle inkling of no face to face on the mountain. The point of rural and / or internalized homophobia does not lose its significance if there is any kissing on the mountain. Because the outcome is the same - even *with* kissing and face to face Ennis is never able to overcome his fears and denial within Jack's lifetime. Even with kissing and face to face the relationship they have is far from healthy judging from the damage they inflict on each other. The homophobia is still the killer in this story.