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Author Topic: Election 2008--CLOSED  (Read 462251 times)

Offline BayCityJohn

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Re: Election 2008
« Reply #6150 on: December 09, 2008, 02:17:40 PM »


Quote
Under the Constitution, only federal criminal convictions, such as those obtained in the United States District Courts, may be pardoned by the President. In addition, the President's pardon power extends to convictions obtained in the Superior Court of the District of Columbia and military court-martial proceedings. However, the President cannot pardon a state criminal offense. Accordingly, if you are seeking clemency for a state criminal conviction, you should not complete and submit this petition. Instead, you should contact the Governor or other appropriate authorities of the state where you reside or where the conviction occurred (such as the state board of pardons and paroles) to determine whether any relief is available to you under state law. If you have a federal conviction, information about the conviction may be obtained from the clerk of the federal court where you were convicted.


http://www.usdoj.gov/pardon/pardon_instructions.htm
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tonydude

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Re: Election 2008
« Reply #6151 on: December 09, 2008, 02:30:55 PM »
   Am not sure of the scope of the President's power to pardon, but have read it is extensive.  They keep looking for loopholes, and, although I'm not a lawyer, I believe there's a way to stop pardons used to cover-up crimes.  And that would be, NO president can pardon forward, only backwards.
  So, if, say, Attorney General Gonzales was pardoned for lying to Congress, cover-up, abuse of power....whatever, that would only cover what he had done PREVIOUSLY.  Immediately following the pardon, his failure to come forward with what he knew, would then be brand new crimes:  non-feasance, obstruction of justice, etc.
  My point being, in certain areas, like a crime done and over, the pardon ends the process of justice, but in other areas, like stonewalling, withholding information, cover-up, new criminality begins immediately if the person does not step forward and convey what he or she knows.  The charges would be different, but very justifiable.
  Does this make any sense?  The difference between a finished and completed act (pardoned and over), and an on-going defiance of investigation, which renews, as a crime, after a pardon?  How can a President pardon into the future, is where I see an achilles heel to the abuses of this administration.  Non-feasance is rarely prosecuted, but remains on the books.

Offline michaelflanagansf

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Re: Election 2008
« Reply #6152 on: December 09, 2008, 02:37:36 PM »
So Rod Blagojevich replaced George Ryan, who was also jailed for selling government licenses?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Ryan

What's in the water back there?
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Offline BayCityJohn

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Re: Election 2008
« Reply #6153 on: December 09, 2008, 02:49:45 PM »
They drink Aquafina, which in the Chicago area comes from Munster, Ind., tap water.

So Rod Blagojevich replaced George Ryan, who was also jailed for selling government licenses?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Ryan

What's in the water back there?

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/chi-bottled-water-testapr17,0,3412677.story
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Offline garyd

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Re: Election 2008
« Reply #6154 on: December 09, 2008, 02:51:34 PM »
Can Bush pardon people before they are indicted or accused?

Maybe that is why some of these accusations are being delayed?

I don't think so.

A person would have to be tried and convicted first.

Not so fast;

"Now, therefore, I, Gerald R. Ford, President of the United States, pursuant to the pardon power conferred upon me by Article II, Section 2, of the Constitution, have granted and by these presents do grant a full, free, and absolute pardon unto Richard Nixon for all offenses against the United States which he, Richard Nixon, has committed or may have committed or taken part in during the period from July (January) 20, 1969 through August 9, 1974."

This simply demonstrates that it CAN be done.
The events surrounding this pardon were also quite extraordinary and
the rationale was that prosecution of Nixon would have been more detrimental to the nation than helpful.
The prosecution of anyone Bush might pardon does not impact the country in as dramatic a fashion.



Offline Dave Cullen

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Re: Election 2008
« Reply #6155 on: December 09, 2008, 02:54:56 PM »
"Blagojevich: taken down like a Gambino--with all due respect to the Gambinos." -- Rick Sanchez, CNN anchor, Tuesday afternoon.

That summed up the ugliness of this situation pretty well.

Sanchez had the always-insightful legal analyst Jeff Toobin on, who said that as a former fed prosecutor, the most astounding aspect was the manner that they arrested the Illinois governor. White collar criminals are nearly always taken in via an arranged surrender, he said--you call the lawyer and arrange for the indictee to surrender at the courthouse the next day at 2 p.m., or whatever.

Instead, federal agents surprised him at his home at 6 a.m. like a mafioso. Toobin said they were apparently afraid he would appoint the Senate seat or sign a bill involving himself today if they didn't strike first.

(And legally he could still do it, but it is much harder for him if the story against him breaks first.)

Sounds smart to me. God, imagine if he'd actually filled that Senate appointment today. The big question now: can he be ousted in time. More on that below.

This is so repulsive. I don't think Fed Prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald was exagerating when he said Blagojevich had “taken us to a truly new low.” He also described it as a “political corruption crime spree.” That also sounds accurate, based on the appalling 78-page complaint.

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/national/10illinois_complaint.pdf

Selling the Senate seat is only the latest and most horrible. This list is incredible--you have to read it to believe it. Chris Cillizza does a nice quickie summary here. (Highlights below.)

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/national/10illinois_complaint.pdf

And as Gary Baumgarten pointed out, Blagojevich did this with the full knowledge that the feds were investigating him, watching his every move. This is what he did when he knew they were probably tapping his phone? Imagine what he did on the downlo. (Which also raised the question of self-sabatoge. It's like polical suicide-by-cop.)

It sickens me when Dems, especially act this way. Thank God, the Obama team was apparently smart enough to spur all his advances. NYT said this:

[Fitzgerald ] added that the complaint “makes no allegations about the president-elect whatsoever.” In one passage of the complaint, Mr. Blagojevich is quoted cursing Mr. Obama in apparent frustration that “they’re not willing to give me anything except appreciation.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/09/us/politics/10Illinois.html?_r=1&hp

Here's the W Post's summary of the complaint's take on that (link above):

Blagojevich was convinced that President-elect Barack Obama wanted senior adviser Valerie Jarrett appointed to the Senate seat and, time and again in the indictment, is quoted laying out a variety of scenarios by which he could benefit from such a move. The two most mentioned: 1) Trade a Jarrett appointment for a spot as the head of the Department of Health and Human Services in an Obama Cabinet 2) Name Jarrett to the Senate in exchange for Obama helping him to get a job as the head of Change to Win, a labor coalition.

It's refreshing to see that Blagojevich apparently hounded the Obama people to play ball and they flatly refused. I loved his grumbling that they would only give him "appreciation." God. What an asshole.

Obama statement, live on CNN:

Obama just had a pre-scheduled mini press confererence (mainly photo op) for his meeting with Al Gore (and Joe Biden). He was asked if he knew anything about what was about to happen, and here's my quickie transcription of his reply:

"I had no contact whatsoever with the governor or his office, so I was not aware of what had happened. It's a sad day for Illinois. Beyond that, I don't think it's appropriate to comment."

Probably not, I guess. I was hoping to see him slam the bastard, but everyone deserves their day in court, so it's probably best for the new prez not to pass judgment.

It sure as hell is appropriate for the state legislature to pass judgement, though. That's their job in extraordinary situations. Let's hope they can oust him in time.

What happens next:

NY Times is up fast with an excellent piece answering the burning question, "Who Can Name Obama’s Successor?"

http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/12/09/who-can-name-obamas-successor/?hp

It says:

According to the Illinois state constitution, Mr. Blagojevich would have to be deemed incapacitated — by death, conviction or impeachment, for example — for that power to shift to new hands. There is no clause stating that an indictment restricts his powers.

And he is notorious for standing and fighting. He was still vowing to run for re-election, despite the scandal and an approval rating in the teens. (Hence the 6 a.m. raid.)

But other possibilities. Again from same NYT link (I added the numbering):

1) It is also possible that the Senate, which controls its membership, might refuse to seat any successor named by Mr. Blagojevich.

2) John Jackson, a professor of political science at the Paul Simon Public Policy Institute at Southern Illinois University, Carbondale. Mr. Jackson said the state legislature could begin proceedings almost immediately and remove the governor as early as January, in which case the Lieutenant Governor, Pat Quinn, would step in and replace him.

“My guess is the governor will dig in his heels and fight, and the general assembly will start impeachment hearings,” he said.

John Jackson, a professor of political science at the Paul Simon Public Policy Institute at Southern Illinois University, Carbondale. Mr. Jackson said the state legislature could begin proceedings almost immediately and remove the governor as early as January, in which case the Lieutenant Governor, Pat Quinn, would step in and replace him.

“My guess is the governor will dig in his heels and fight, and the general assembly will start impeachment hearings,” he said.
That seems most likely to me, having followed this dickwad for awhile. (I grew up in the Chicago suburbs and most of my family and college friends are still there. I still follow Chicago politics.)

In a separate piece, Cilizza wrote this on the W Post blog this morning:

According to conversations with several Chicago political sharps, the thinking now is that if Blagojevich makes the appointment, the only possible pick is a caretaker with an unimpeachable record on ethics who will hold the seat for two years and then step aside in 2010.

It's nearly impossible to imagine that anyone Blagojevich picks at this point would be able to run for a full term 2010 as they would immediately be labeled as the hand-picked choice of a scandal-tarred governor.

That was posted at 9 a.m., and I think represented really early thinking. Perhaps a bit too early. I don't see a caretaker nom going through now. It will be very strongly in the interest of both parties in Illinois to rid the state of this slimeball as fast as humanly possible. (Actually it might be in the interest of the Rs to slow it, but also in their interest to condemn his as harshly as possible, which will work at cross purposes. It will be very hard for them to delay without looking awful.)

I wouldn't put it past Blagojevich for one minute to nominate  someone from jail, but if he does, I predict they will refuse, and the new gov will appoint someone knew within a few months.

I honestly have to say that part of my reaction to the news today was relief. It was quite obvious that the guy was a criminal, and the worst thing for the state and the party was to have a criminal continuing to lead one of our largest states. It was sort of like watching a person die a slow agonizing death, suddenly seized by a heart attack. Put them out of their misery quickly. Or perhaps the metaphor I'm searching for is him blowing his own brains out. I don't care. I'm just glad he's putting himself out of our misery.

Thank you, Mr. Governor.

---

Highlights of the complaint, by Cillizza:

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/thefix/2008/12/blajovich_indictment_the_best.html

- Blagojevich seriously -- and repeatedly -- considered naming himself to the Senate. "Unless I get something real good for [Senate Candidate 1], [expletive deleted], I'll just send myself, you know what I'm saying," Blagojevich said at one point. "I'm going to keep this Senate option for me a real possibility, you know, and therefore I can drive a hard bargain," he said later. He was -- inexplicably -- convinced that serving in the Senate might be a way to rehabilitate himself for a possible run for president in 2016. And, no, we are not kidding; it's on page 74 of the indictment.

- Blagojevich floats the idea that wealthy donors could be convinced to fund, to the tune of $10-$15 million, a non-profit -- 501(c)(4) -- focused on health care. He cites billionaire investor Warren Buffett as a friend of Obama who could help finance such an endeavor. He also makes mention of "Senate candidate 6" (referenced in the indictment as "believed to be a wealthy person from Illinois") as someone who might be able to make a major donation to such an organization in exchange for being nominated to the Senate.

- An "emissary" from "Senate candidate 5" allegedly approached Blagojevich about the possibility of a "pay to play" deal for the appointment. "We were approached 'pay to play,'" said Blagojevich, recounting a past conversation with an associate of "Senate candidate 5." "That, you know, he'd raise me 500 grand. An emissary came. Then the other guy would raise a million, if I made him (Senate Candidate 5)

Offline Dave Cullen

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Re: Election 2008
« Reply #6156 on: December 09, 2008, 03:03:58 PM »
Best highlights I've seen so far are from Salon's Primary Sources:

http://www.salon.com/news/primary_sources/2008/12/09/blagojevich_complaint/

On Page 59, Blagojevich muses, "I’ve got this thing and it’s fucking golden, and, uh, uh, I’m just not giving it up for fuckin’ nothing. I’m not gonna do it. And, and I can always use it. I can parachute me there." Blagojevich expresses the hope that he will receive some kind of appointment in return for choosing Obama's favored candidate. "I want to make money," says the governor. On Pages 63-64, Blagojevich refers to Obama as a "motherfucker," and says, of the idea that he would pick the president-elect's preferred candidate without receiving something in return, "Fuck him. For nothing? Fuck him."

God.


Offline jack

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Re: Election 2008
« Reply #6157 on: December 09, 2008, 03:42:24 PM »
Wow!  Hadn't heard the news from Illinois yet.

Time to turn on the TV!
turn OFF the tv and gt ON the computer.  this has been on the major blogs since 10 this morning.  i didn't bother mentioning it because i figured tom would pull it out since huffpo featured it prominently.

and as sad as it all is, it IS chicago politics.
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Offline Rosewood

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Re: Election 2008
« Reply #6158 on: December 09, 2008, 03:45:52 PM »
Maybe it's my age, but I'm so not surprised at the profane language
and implications of that language used by this lunatic governor.
I mean, obviously he's a lunatic.
No sane person would carry on like that and expect nothing to come
of it. ESPECIALLY when he knew he was being investigated.
Jesus, you find characters like this sprinkled all throughout Shakespeare.

So, the language should not surprise.
This is a vile personality, ergo everything that spouts from
him is vile.

In an odd way this is good for Obama.
I mean, the use of such language.
After all, if this guy had spouted glowing words of praise for the
President-Elect, think what would have been inferred by a media
inclined towards feeding frenzies.

The more venal Blagojevich appears, the easier it will be to leave
him behind, mired in his own foulness.

Come to think of it, Obama should squash him like a bug.
Mainly for giving the 'where there's smoke there's fire' brigade something
to smirk about. Sean Hannity, Rush and O'Reilly will have absolute field days
with this.

But you know, Mr. Fitzgerald needs to stop appearing so injured by reality.
I mean, honestly, he looked close to tears.
Everytime he catches one of these characters, he seems to reevaluate the
world and his view of it. ("I'm shocked, shocked...") Such a sensitive soul should,
perhaps, not be in the line of work he's in. He seems so easily taken aback by
humanity's propensity for dark deeds.
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Offline garyd

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Re: Election 2008
« Reply #6159 on: December 09, 2008, 03:52:19 PM »
and as sad as it all is, it IS chicago politics.

I suppose I understand your meaning here.

Still, it is not Cairo politics, or Peoria, or Rock Island, or Alton, or Naperville, or Lisle,or even Springfield politics for that matter.
This guy is scum and no city or political party appears to have a monopoly on scum.

We voters don't seem to have a very accurate built in "scum-dar" either.

Offline BayCityJohn

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Re: Election 2008
« Reply #6160 on: December 09, 2008, 04:55:05 PM »
She's the lady in red when everybody else is wearing tan.
The flashy girl from Flushing, the Nanny named Fran



'Nanny' state? Drescher eyes Clinton's Senate seat

Quote
ALBANY, N.Y. – The star of "The Nanny" wants to go from playing nasally New Yawkers to succeeding Hillary Rodham Clinton in the U.S. Senate.

Publicist Jordan Brown delivered the straight line that Fran Drescher is serious about becoming the next junior senator from New York. Brown cited Drescher's experience as an actress, advocate for women's health and public diplomacy envoy for the U.S. State Department.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081209/ap_on_re_us/ny_senate_drescher
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Offline Ellen (tellyouwhat)

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Re: Election 2008
« Reply #6161 on: December 09, 2008, 05:01:45 PM »
Best highlights I've seen so far are from Salon's Primary Sources:

http://www.salon.com/news/primary_sources/2008/12/09/blagojevich_complaint/

On Page 59, Blagojevich muses, "I’ve got this thing and it’s fucking golden, and, uh, uh, I’m just not giving it up for fuckin’ nothing. I’m not gonna do it. And, and I can always use it. I can parachute me there." Blagojevich expresses the hope that he will receive some kind of appointment in return for choosing Obama's favored candidate. "I want to make money," says the governor. On Pages 63-64, Blagojevich refers to Obama as a "motherfucker," and says, of the idea that he would pick the president-elect's preferred candidate without receiving something in return, "Fuck him. For nothing? Fuck him."

God.




That is awful.  The idea that every situation needs to be either a deal, a chit, or a payoff.  I know politics is politics but wouldn't it wear you out to be constantly strategizing like this?

And there is no mention of what might be best for the state, or the country. 

Or possibly that he even had his own favorite candidate.  Nope, the position is for sale.
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Offline michaelflanagansf

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Re: Election 2008
« Reply #6162 on: December 09, 2008, 06:13:59 PM »
That is awful.  The idea that every situation needs to be either a deal, a chit, or a payoff.  I know politics is politics but wouldn't it wear you out to be constantly strategizing like this?

And there is no mention of what might be best for the state, or the country. 

Or possibly that he even had his own favorite candidate.  Nope, the position is for sale.

If they just put him in jail with Eliot then he can continue to sell things and Eliot can continue to buy them....
I do my thing, & you do your thing. I am not in this world to live up to your expectations, and you are not in this world to live up to mine. You are you and I am I, and if by chance we find each other - it is beautiful. If not it can't be helped.

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Offline WhenPigsFly

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Re: Election 2008
« Reply #6163 on: December 09, 2008, 08:02:03 PM »
PardonPower's list of governors in trouble:

Don Siegelman, AL (2006) - indicted, charges dropped, convicted after term

http://presidentialpardon.net/

Put an asterisk by Siegelman's name. 

He was released from prison earlier this year and is appealing his conviction based on alleged misconduct by the Alabama AG and a couple of US Attorneys.

Also, Karl Rove has ignored a subpoena to testify at a House Judiciary Committee hearing on the case (John Conyers, committee chairman is reported to have been upset, almost to the point of reaction).
...somehow, as a coat hanger is straightened to open a locked car and then bent again to its original shape, they torqued things almost to where they had been, for what they'd said was no news.  Nothing ended, nothing begun, nothing resolved...

Offline killersmom

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Re: Election 2008
« Reply #6164 on: December 09, 2008, 11:35:23 PM »
Since we are well past the election and well into the transitional govenrment of President Elect Obama, this thread will now be closed. Thanks to all of you for all your contributions.

We hope that all of you will continue these great discussions and links. Any links or ongoing discussions can be quoted and copied over to this new thread:

http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=31828.0
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