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Author Topic: Scenes with Ennis and Alma OR Jack and Lureen  (Read 192232 times)

Offline David

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Re: Scene: Ennis and Alma & Jack and Lureen
« Reply #15 on: January 15, 2006, 02:55:36 PM »
I think Lureen may have had a sense that Jack liked other men, but she probably remained in denial about it until Jack's death.  And it's pretty clear, IMO, that Lureen doesn't make the full connection until she's on the phone with Ennis.

What I think is so spectacular about the scene is that we're seeing a watershed moment for Lureen.  All these years of inattention from Jack, of an icy marriage...it can all be explained by the fact that Jack had already fallen in love with another person (Ennis) well before she had ever met him.

Amazing how much can be conveyed in a single scene.


Well said, Scott.
The huge sadness of the Northern plains rolled down on him.

Offline Ranchgal

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Re: Scene: Ennis and Alma & Jack and Lureen
« Reply #16 on: January 15, 2006, 05:19:09 PM »
When Alma says outloud to Ennis-"I would have 'em if you would support them." In their final bedroom scene.
Just about everyone in the theater with me gasped out loud.  Like none of them could believe she could actually say that.

I keep wondering If Ennis really would have been happy to leave her alone??
I mean in the scheme of things using some protection doesn't seem like all that big a problem, esp. considering how much they didn't have as compared to what they did have, and just scraping by to support the ones they have.  Even though it is obvious Ennis wouldn't mind having lots of kids, IF he doesn't have to deal with them day to day.

Offline peteinportland

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Re: Scene: Ennis and Alma & Jack and Lureen
« Reply #17 on: January 18, 2006, 02:36:31 AM »
A man wearing a condom in the late 60s is emasculating and an insult to his masculinity. Ennis is a rural cowboy. He ain't gonna wear no condom, especially as fragile as he already feels about his masculinity. MHO.

Offline peteinportland

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Re: Scene: Ennis and Alma & Jack and Lureen
« Reply #18 on: January 18, 2006, 02:45:44 AM »
I wonder what Jack told her when he drove 1200 miles after Ennis divorce? Was it just another "fishing trip" until he sees how Ennis reacts? If so, that tells me he must have known in the back of his head what Ennis might say. I also wonder why he never left Lureen to move closer to Ennis. We see that he admires her in some ways. What keeps this relationship together? A son, finances, and some history? Habit? Amazing that Ennis and Alma divorce, but that Jack and Lureen never do.

Offline In Tears

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Re: Scene: Ennis and Alma & Jack and Lureen
« Reply #19 on: January 18, 2006, 11:49:11 AM »
When Alma says outloud to Ennis-"I would have 'em if you would support them." In their final bedroom scene.
Just about everyone in the theater with me gasped out loud.  Like none of them could believe she could actually say that.

Agreed, that is one of Alma's two knockout lines (the other being "that line ain't never touched water...").  Alma demonstrates a remarkable ability to push on and hide the hurt she feels, but in these two instances, each provoked by E's unfair suggestions that she was not a good wife, she lets it fly. 

Plainly, part of the power of this film is that it resists the temptation to villianize or mock the women.  Indeed, through Alma, Lureen, Cassie and even the mothers of Jack and Lureen, we see suffering which reflects that of J and E.
 

"Later, that dozy embrace solidified in his memory as the single moment of artless, charmed happiness in their separate and difficult lives."

Offline In Tears

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Re: Scene: Ennis and Alma & Jack and Lureen
« Reply #20 on: January 18, 2006, 10:09:04 PM »
I apologize for the directness of my questions but I have zero experience in these matters.  Perhaps the straight men (and women) there can help me.  Thanks.

In E's first sex scene with Alma, she ends up facing downward.  In the story it says, "he rolled her over and did quickly what she hated."  Later, in the "I'd have 'em if you'd support 'em" scene, the story says Alma "... thought, [a]nyway what you like to do don't make too many babies."

Is E having anal sex with her or is this vaginal sex from behind?  How common is anal sex among heterosexual couples?  Is it pleasurable for the woman or is it painful?  Is it deemed degrading or humiliating, or simply a variation of normal, healthy sex?

At the root of my questions:  Is the implication here that E is using Alma for J?

Thanks for any insights.
"Later, that dozy embrace solidified in his memory as the single moment of artless, charmed happiness in their separate and difficult lives."

Offline trebor99

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Re: Scene: Ennis and Alma & Jack and Lureen
« Reply #21 on: January 19, 2006, 07:29:40 AM »
I haven't seen this detail of the movie discussed anywhere----perhaps someone can answer this question.

In the scene where Ennis, Alma and the girls are in on a Saturday night, Alma suggests going to the church social, Ennis is watching a movie on TV, does anyone know what movie he is watching?

thanks

Offline maturben

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Re: Scene: Ennis and Alma & Jack and Lureen
« Reply #22 on: January 19, 2006, 05:24:24 PM »
In Tears---Thank you!  I, too, was not sure whether the topic of "other" intercourse should have been brought up.  In the original story there is a bit in which Ennis brings Alma to climax manually. It would seem that Ennis is trying to deal with his sexuality in the only ways he knows how. 
"maintain a more than usually creative relationship to reality" ( a quote from Land's End by Michael Cunningham)

cyoung

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Re: Scene: Ennis and Alma & Jack and Lureen
« Reply #23 on: January 19, 2006, 06:56:14 PM »
Is E having anal sex with her or is this vaginal sex from behind?  How common is anal sex among heterosexual couples?  Is it pleasurable for the woman or is it painful?  Is it deemed degrading or humiliating, or simply a variation of normal, healthy sex?

At the root of my questions:  Is the implication here that E is using Alma for J?

It's not really clear which it is, but I think we're meant to believe it's anal sex and that she's none too happy about it.... or maybe just not happy that he won't look at her face-to-face during lovemaking. I do think the implication is that he's using Alma or trying to recreate with her what he had with Jack. (A female friend of mine said she finds this scene "appalling" not only because it shows Ennis's disregard for Alma but also because it seems to reduce homosexuality to being only "about anal sex.") In answer to your other questions, I would say that it depends on the heterosexual couple or the particular individuals. People vary so much in their sexual likes and dislikes, and it's tough to generalize. Some women enjoy anal sex and/or anal stimulation, while others don't find it pleasurable.

Cara
« Last Edit: January 19, 2006, 06:58:45 PM by cyoung »

Offline In Tears

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Re: Scene: Ennis and Alma & Jack and Lureen
« Reply #24 on: January 19, 2006, 11:36:29 PM »
Is E having anal sex with her or is this vaginal sex from behind?  How common is anal sex among heterosexual couples?  Is it pleasurable for the woman or is it painful?  Is it deemed degrading or humiliating, or simply a variation of normal, healthy sex?

At the root of my questions:  Is the implication here that E is using Alma for J?

It's not really clear which it is, but I think we're meant to believe it's anal sex and that she's none too happy about it.... or maybe just not happy that he won't look at her face-to-face during lovemaking. I do think the implication is that he's using Alma or trying to recreate with her what he had with Jack. (A female friend of mine said she finds this scene "appalling" not only because it shows Ennis's disregard for Alma but also because it seems to reduce homosexuality to being only "about anal sex.") In answer to your other questions, I would say that it depends on the heterosexual couple or the particular individuals. People vary so much in their sexual likes and dislikes, and it's tough to generalize. Some women enjoy anal sex and/or anal stimulation, while others don't find it pleasurable.

Cara

Thanks for the insights (and the Human Sexuality 101); I need both!  I suppose this begs the question, is E using Alma for J or is he angry and punishing her for not being J?  He certainly inflicted emotional punishment on Alma in many cruel and hurtful ways and, with two notable exceptions ("if you'd support 'em" and "Jack Nasty"), she quietly tolerated it.  Do you think the sex is rooted in love for Jack or in deep rage over his confining marriage?

Thanks to all who add their ideas; you are a wise and sensitive group!


« Last Edit: January 21, 2006, 09:35:54 AM by In Tears »
"Later, that dozy embrace solidified in his memory as the single moment of artless, charmed happiness in their separate and difficult lives."

Offline gnash

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Re: Scene: Ennis and Alma & Jack and Lureen
« Reply #25 on: January 20, 2006, 03:29:55 AM »
i'm draggin this over from the "last scene" thread, as per the mod's suggestion:

Funny, but in my first veiwing, I swore I saw Jack looking at Randall when he asked Lasahwn to dance. Which one was he addressing (privately or publically)? - probably just me, but each time I see it Jack seems to be flirting a bit with Randall.

YES! He WAS looking at Randall! Randall even looks startled when his wife pipes up and agrees to dance with Jack. Jack's definitely playing a little game there.  :D

Cara

OH yeah, and he's no newbie at it either.  Way out of Randall's league, although of course Randall doesn't know that.

Dal


well he surely was looking at randall, but right after jack asks lashawn to dance, he shoots randall a very telling glance. i think he says "YOU MIND?" it's almost hostile. his eyes widen and his head cocks forward, as if to drive home a point. to me, it was like jack KNEW that randall was gving him the eye, and by asking randall's wife to dance, he was stopping randall, and again, driving home a point: don't fucking cruise me in front of our wives. i'm going to dance with your wife to prove, or at least make it seem, like i'm straight.

(one wonders what randall and lureen talked about when jack and lashawn were dancing)

now, think about that scene, or study it the next time ya'll see the movie, and hopefully you won't think i'm wrong. he's very direct, and the look in his eyes when he does that, at least to me, is more than just a random look. he was telling randall NOT to play games.

jack wasn't dumb here, he'd learned early on that what he did with men could get him in trouble. remember "seeing" him thinking, when the bartender told him that maybe he should try calf roping? he knew what was up, that jimbo had his number, and that any "games" he played could get him in a heap of trouble. he slammed the money on the bar after telling the bartender, basically, to eff off.

i have a feeling that ang lee described the scene and went into detail about how he wanted jake to play it out at the dance with the wives. it was very obvious to me that jack was aware of randall's flirting, and wanted to put a stop to it pronto.

then, when they were outside, jack was more lenient. with the two of them alone, he tested randall by asking "...ever notice how a woman will powder her nose.." before and after a party? he asks, "why powder your nose just to go home to bed?"

to me, that was jack addressing his suspicion that randall was gay and coming on to him at the party.

but randall is clueless at this point and doesn't pick up on the meaning of jack's question. if randall were straight, he might have chimed in with "well, maybe it's cuz the party's not over when we get home, hehe."

but no. there's silence, and jack changes the subject, talking about how roy is a good guy.

randall agrees, the starts in on his notion of the two of them getting drunk at the lake. "...get away, you know..."

jack then realized what he suspected was true. randall wanted a "fishin' buddy."

the realization renders him speechless, and then the women come out.. of course, the audience then laughs because lashawn is STILL talking a blue streak. however, the depth of the situation was not lost on me, and as the lashawn's conversation ends with "...boy we were behind the times..." i was still reeling from what had just gone down between the two men.

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Offline Yumasol

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Re: Scene: Ennis and Alma & Jack and Lureen
« Reply #26 on: January 22, 2006, 02:08:24 AM »
i'm draggin this over from the "last scene" thread, as per the mod's suggestion:

Funny, but in my first veiwing, I swore I saw Jack looking at Randall when he asked Lasahwn to dance. Which one was he addressing (privately or publically)? - probably just me, but each time I see it Jack seems to be flirting a bit with Randall.

YES! He WAS looking at Randall! Randall even looks startled when his wife pipes up and agrees to dance with Jack. Jack's definitely playing a little game there.  :D

Cara

OH yeah, and he's no newbie at it either.  Way out of Randall's league, although of course Randall doesn't know that.

Dal


well he surely was looking at randall, but right after jack asks lashawn to dance, he shoots randall a very telling glance. i think he says "YOU MIND?" it's almost hostile. his eyes widen and his head cocks forward, as if to drive home a point. to me, it was like jack KNEW that randall was gving him the eye, and by asking randall's wife to dance, he was stopping randall, and again, driving home a point: don't fucking cruise me in front of our wives. i'm going to dance with your wife to prove, or at least make it seem, like i'm straight.

(one wonders what randall and lureen talked about when jack and lashawn were dancing)

now, think about that scene, or study it the next time ya'll see the movie, and hopefully you won't think i'm wrong. he's very direct, and the look in his eyes when he does that, at least to me, is more than just a random look. he was telling randall NOT to play games.

jack wasn't dumb here, he'd learned early on that what he did with men could get him in trouble. remember "seeing" him thinking, when the bartender told him that maybe he should try calf roping? he knew what was up, that jimbo had his number, and that any "games" he played could get him in a heap of trouble. he slammed the money on the bar after telling the bartender, basically, to eff off.

i have a feeling that ang lee described the scene and went into detail about how he wanted jake to play it out at the dance with the wives. it was very obvious to me that jack was aware of randall's flirting, and wanted to put a stop to it pronto.

then, when they were outside, jack was more lenient. with the two of them alone, he tested randall by asking "...ever notice how a woman will powder her nose.." before and after a party? he asks, "why powder your nose just to go home to bed?"

to me, that was jack addressing his suspicion that randall was gay and coming on to him at the party.

but randall is clueless at this point and doesn't pick up on the meaning of jack's question. if randall were straight, he might have chimed in with "well, maybe it's cuz the party's not over when we get home, hehe."

but no. there's silence, and jack changes the subject, talking about how roy is a good guy.

randall agrees, the starts in on his notion of the two of them getting drunk at the lake. "...get away, you know..."

jack then realized what he suspected was true. randall wanted a "fishin' buddy."

the realization renders him speechless, and then the women come out.. of course, the audience then laughs because lashawn is STILL talking a blue streak. however, the depth of the situation was not lost on me, and as the lashawn's conversation ends with "...boy we were behind the times..." i was still reeling from what had just gone down between the two men.

Yesss! I call it "Shell we dance" scene!  Damn Well done! One of my favorite! Jake just sparkling....

Offline sarah

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Re: Scene: Ennis and Alma & Jack and Lureen
« Reply #27 on: January 22, 2006, 05:47:36 AM »
I apologize for the directness of my questions but I have zero experience in these matters.  Perhaps the straight men (and women) there can help me.  Thanks.

In E's first sex scene with Alma, she ends up facing downward.  In the story it says, "he rolled her over and did quickly what she hated."  Later, in the "I'd have 'em if you'd support 'em" scene, the story says Alma "... thought, [a]nyway what you like to do don't make too many babies."

Is E having anal sex with her or is this vaginal sex from behind?  How common is anal sex among heterosexual couples?  Is it pleasurable for the woman or is it painful?  Is it deemed degrading or humiliating, or simply a variation of normal, healthy sex?

Yes, he is having anal sex with her in my opinion, and yes, it is probably to remind him of his encounters with Jack.  I was wondering when someone was going to bring this up -- I was just about to myself!

At the root of my questions:  Is the implication here that E is using Alma for J?

Thanks for any insights.
There ain't no reins on this one.

Offline kaboyz

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Re: Scene: Ennis and Alma & Jack and Lureen
« Reply #28 on: January 22, 2006, 05:24:15 PM »
I don't know exactly where I read this, but in many comments I have read that people suggest Lureen approached Jack (in their first encounter in the bar) just to hush up some whispers she was hearing about Jack being gay, after the clown rodeo incident.  Those scenes were completely different scenes. 

When reading those comments at first I couldn't remember if the if they were related, so when I saw it a third time, I made sure to check it out.  Laureen was sitting alone, men kept approaching Lureen and requesting her attention and she kept blowing them off.  Then eventually she approached Jack.  There were no whispers, groups of men weren't even in ear shot.  Am I missing something? 
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Offline tomisintown

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Re: Scene: Ennis and Alma & Jack and Lureen
« Reply #29 on: January 23, 2006, 03:15:57 PM »
Did anyone else laugh when Jack failed to catch those keys in the scene with the newborn baby? Jake played that brilliantly as well, with that innocent "did anyone see that?" look on his face. When I first saw it I chuckled and said "the gays don't catch", then realised he did catch at one point and never regained my maturity since.