The Ultimate Brokeback Forum

Author Topic: Scenes with Ennis and Alma OR Jack and Lureen  (Read 196846 times)

Offline Danny

  • Feet Wet
  • **
  • Posts: 29
  • ...mines developed a "low startle point"
Re: Scene: Ennis and Alma & Jack and Lureen
« Reply #30 on: January 23, 2006, 10:19:21 PM »
i'm draggin this over from the "last scene" thread, as per the mod's suggestion:

Funny, but in my first veiwing, I swore I saw Jack looking at Randall when he asked Lasahwn to dance. Which one was he addressing (privately or publically)? - probably just me, but each time I see it Jack seems to be flirting a bit with Randall.

YES! He WAS looking at Randall! Randall even looks startled when his wife pipes up and agrees to dance with Jack. Jack's definitely playing a little game there.  :D

Cara

OH yeah, and he's no newbie at it either.  Way out of Randall's league, although of course Randall doesn't know that.

Dal


well he surely was looking at randall, but right after jack asks lashawn to dance, he shoots randall a very telling glance. i think he says "YOU MIND?" it's almost hostile. his eyes widen and his head cocks forward, as if to drive home a point. to me, it was like jack KNEW that randall was gving him the eye, and by asking randall's wife to dance, he was stopping randall, and again, driving home a point: don't fucking cruise me in front of our wives. i'm going to dance with your wife to prove, or at least make it seem, like i'm straight.

(one wonders what randall and lureen talked about when jack and lashawn were dancing)

now, think about that scene, or study it the next time ya'll see the movie, and hopefully you won't think i'm wrong. he's very direct, and the look in his eyes when he does that, at least to me, is more than just a random look. he was telling randall NOT to play games.

jack wasn't dumb here, he'd learned early on that what he did with men could get him in trouble. remember "seeing" him thinking, when the bartender told him that maybe he should try calf roping? he knew what was up, that jimbo had his number, and that any "games" he played could get him in a heap of trouble. he slammed the money on the bar after telling the bartender, basically, to eff off.

i have a feeling that ang lee described the scene and went into detail about how he wanted jake to play it out at the dance with the wives. it was very obvious to me that jack was aware of randall's flirting, and wanted to put a stop to it pronto.

then, when they were outside, jack was more lenient. with the two of them alone, he tested randall by asking "...ever notice how a woman will powder her nose.." before and after a party? he asks, "why powder your nose just to go home to bed?"

to me, that was jack addressing his suspicion that randall was gay and coming on to him at the party.

but randall is clueless at this point and doesn't pick up on the meaning of jack's question. if randall were straight, he might have chimed in with "well, maybe it's cuz the party's not over when we get home, hehe."

but no. there's silence, and jack changes the subject, talking about how roy is a good guy.

randall agrees, the starts in on his notion of the two of them getting drunk at the lake. "...get away, you know..."

jack then realized what he suspected was true. randall wanted a "fishin' buddy."

the realization renders him speechless, and then the women come out.. of course, the audience then laughs because lashawn is STILL talking a blue streak. however, the depth of the situation was not lost on me, and as the lashawn's conversation ends with "...boy we were behind the times..." i was still reeling from what had just gone down between the two men.

Yesss! I call it "Shell we dance" scene!  Damn Well done! One of my favorite! Jake just sparkling....





Sorry guys... I dont see it his way.  I would love to but paid attention to this part as well on my fifth and sixth trips.  Lureen and Lashawn are talking about their sororities and then says something to Lureen about having to dance with themselves, "dont matter no ways" she says cause neither of our husbands probably have a lick of rhythem between em anyway,  "ah yes" Lureen says "why is it that husbands neeever seem want to dance with their wives?" speaking towards Jack, cigarette in hand as Jack exhales cigarette and snuffs a but out in ashtray, paying more attention to that then his wife " "Never gave it no mind" replies Jack half heartedly with dis-interest (or something to that effect) then he looks up, wide eyed and bright, his disinterest snaps into appeared excitement, looks at LaShawn and says "wanna dance?"  LaShawn replies "Yes" with excited disbelief,  Randall looks shocked and you can clearly see Jack shift his eyes to Randall and say "you mind?" ( the shift implying he was NOT looking at Randall any time before)  Randalls look of shock diminishes into a liitle chuckle as he shakes his head slowly back and forth, eyes close like "i cant believe you just did that" and replies "No." while still chuckling.  I see this as more of a diss on Lureen, although intended in a light hearted, funny way.  kind of like a "quick comeback"
"'watchin Lureen punch numbers in her addin machine till she gets more zero's, her eyes gettin smaller and smaller, its like watchin a rabbit tryin to squeeze down a snake hole with a coyote on its tail.."

Offline timmer12

  • Getting Acquainted
  • *
  • Posts: 19
Re: Scene: Ennis and Alma & Jack and Lureen
« Reply #31 on: January 25, 2006, 07:57:36 PM »
This may be in the wrong thread, but in the scene where Alma tells Ennis about the power company job (as he's packing to go fishing) the radio is on in the backround.  The DJ is telling a joke about 2 guys one of them big ("he must have worked construction his whole life...") and the other small.  The small guy speaks with a lisp, and it sounds like some kind of gay bashing joke.  I was wondering if others caught more of it.  No one reacts to it visibly, it was just part of the backround, but it seemed so sad, that once again, Ennis is being told queer is wrong.
     Did I misunderstand the whole thing?

Offline aevkc

  • Obsessed
  • *****
  • Posts: 5854
  • Alright, sassafras....
Re: Scene: Ennis and Alma & Jack and Lureen
« Reply #32 on: January 25, 2006, 08:24:37 PM »
In Tears, from my reading of the story and seeing the movie I think it's definitely referring to anal sex between Ennis and Alma.  And I think he's substituting her for Jack.  Notice in the scene in the movie, just before he flips her over, he turns out the light.  My first thought was he did that so he could pretend it was Jack.  Just my opinion.
Common response to Lost: UGH! I SHAKE MY FIST AT YOU, LOST! (But then I come back for a hug, because who am I kidding?)--Therese O'Dell

"True love is friendship set on fire."--French proverb

"If you're not yelling at your kids, you're not spending enough time with them."--Reese Witherspoon

Offline peteinportland

  • Obsessed
  • *****
  • Posts: 2063
Re: Scene: Ennis and Alma & Jack and Lureen
« Reply #33 on: January 25, 2006, 08:27:32 PM »
This may be in the wrong thread, but in the scene where Alma tells Ennis about the power company job (as he's packing to go fishing) the radio is on in the backround.  The DJ is telling a joke about 2 guys one of them big ("he must have worked construction his whole life...") and the other small.  The small guy speaks with a lisp, and it sounds like some kind of gay bashing joke.  I was wondering if others caught more of it.  No one reacts to it visibly, it was just part of the backround, but it seemed so sad, that once again, Ennis is being told queer is wrong.
     Did I misunderstand the whole thing?

I listened to this part very closely yesterday, but I could not catch the entire radio joke. Although, your interpertation would make sense. I also tried to catch what it was being advertised on the radio when Alma is washing clothes in the sink. Ang doesn't leave these little details to chance. 

Offline In Tears

  • Experienced
  • ***
  • Posts: 195
Re: Scene: Ennis and Alma & Jack and Lureen
« Reply #34 on: January 25, 2006, 10:27:21 PM »
In Tears, from my reading of the story and seeing the movie I think it's definitely referring to anal sex between Ennis and Alma.  And I think he's substituting her for Jack.  Notice in the scene in the movie, just before he flips her over, he turns out the light.  My first thought was he did that so he could pretend it was Jack.  Just my opinion.
Thank you.  Do you gather that Alma, who is said to "hate" the act, tolerates this as she does so much other abuse from E, as a means of competing with J? 
"Later, that dozy embrace solidified in his memory as the single moment of artless, charmed happiness in their separate and difficult lives."

Offline case

  • Feet Wet
  • **
  • Posts: 27
Re: Scene: Ennis and Alma & Jack and Lureen
« Reply #35 on: January 25, 2006, 11:54:35 PM »
This may be in the wrong thread, but in the scene where Alma tells Ennis about the power company job (as he's packing to go fishing) the radio is on in the backround.  The DJ is telling a joke about 2 guys...

I listened to this part very closely yesterday, but I could not catch the entire radio joke. Although, your interpertation would make sense. I also tried to catch what it was being advertised on the radio when Alma is washing clothes in the sink. Ang doesn't leave these little details to chance. 

No, he sure doesn't. I don't know exactly about the radio ad, maybe soda? I caught some words like "different flavors", "root beer" and "diet", though. I saw Alma drinking a bottle of Coca-Cola at the drive-in.

Something else I noticed was a card showing up, thumbtacked, onto their kitchen bulletin board as Ennis is packing to go fishing. It has a red flower on it. Looks like a rose, too.

Offline aevkc

  • Obsessed
  • *****
  • Posts: 5854
  • Alright, sassafras....
Re: Scene: Ennis and Alma & Jack and Lureen
« Reply #36 on: January 26, 2006, 08:11:39 AM »
In Tears, I hadn't really thought much about why she allowed it if she hated it, but that's a good question.  I don't think she was trying to compete with Jack because it was happening even before she knew about Ennis and Jack.  The scene where he flips her over comes before the reunion.  I'm assuming, given the time and place and Alma herself, that she was a virgin when they married and maybe she just thinks that is the way it always is so doesn't voice her complaints. 
Common response to Lost: UGH! I SHAKE MY FIST AT YOU, LOST! (But then I come back for a hug, because who am I kidding?)--Therese O'Dell

"True love is friendship set on fire."--French proverb

"If you're not yelling at your kids, you're not spending enough time with them."--Reese Witherspoon

Offline Scoutjr

  • Experienced
  • ***
  • Posts: 220
Re: Scene: Ennis and Alma & Jack and Lureen
« Reply #37 on: January 26, 2006, 11:30:00 AM »
Quote

jack wasn't dumb here, he'd learned early on that what he did with men could get him in trouble. remember "seeing" him thinking, when the bartender told him that maybe he should try calf roping? he knew what was up, that jimbo had his number, and that any "games" he played could get him in a heap of trouble. he slammed the money on the bar after telling the bartender, basically, to eff off.
Quote


I never "got" the comment about calf ropin'.  Can you explain?? Sorry!  ???

Offline happycamper

  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 502
Re: Scene: Ennis and Alma & Jack and Lureen
« Reply #38 on: January 26, 2006, 12:05:54 PM »
I never "got" the comment about calf ropin'.  Can you explain?? Sorry!  ???
Calf roping is a rodeo event: a calf comes running out of one shoot, a rider on horseback has to lasoo the calf, jump off his horse, work his way down the rope, and pin the calf to the ground, sometimes hog-tie it as well. It is one rodeo event that I have seen the animals get injured in, because the calf can get jerked pretty hard. The roping horses are specifically trained for this, as they back up to keep the rope taut (the rope is tied to the saddle at one end).

The way I read the scene is that the bartender is trying to cover over Jack's embarassment by making conversation, but Jack takes out his discomfort on the guy by yelling at him "Do I look like I got money for a roping horse?"

One take on the scene is that since Jack has struck-out with the rodeo clown, maybe he should try another event.  :)

Offline Scoutjr

  • Experienced
  • ***
  • Posts: 220
Re: Scene: Ennis and Alma & Jack and Lureen
« Reply #39 on: January 26, 2006, 01:07:39 PM »
I never "got" the comment about calf ropin'.  Can you explain?? Sorry!  ???
Calf roping is a rodeo event: a calf comes running out of one shoot, a rider on horseback has to lasoo the calf, jump off his horse, work his way down the rope, and pin the calf to the ground, sometimes hog-tie it as well. It is one rodeo event that I have seen the animals get injured in, because the calf can get jerked pretty hard. The roping horses are specifically trained for this, as they back up to keep the rope taut (the rope is tied to the saddle at one end).

The way I read the scene is that the bartender is trying to cover over Jack's embarassment by making conversation, but Jack takes out his discomfort on the guy by yelling at him "Do I look like I got money for a roping horse?"

One take on the scene is that since Jack has struck-out with the rodeo clown, maybe he should try another event.  :)


Thanks, I just wasn't sure!

Offline michelle

  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 281
Re: Scene: Ennis and Alma & Jack and Lureen
« Reply #40 on: January 26, 2006, 06:02:51 PM »
I haven't read the story yet, so didn't know about the "what she hated" description in the original. That said, Michelle Williams managed to convey in Alma's plaintive gasp ("Ennis!) as he turns her over that this was not the first time he did this to her. It also explains why she seemed a little frantic, begging him to "Com' 'ere" as he hovered above her, just before turning her over.

Offline happycamper

  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 502
Re: Scene: Ennis and Alma & Jack and Lureen
« Reply #41 on: January 26, 2006, 06:19:22 PM »
I haven't read the story yet, so didn't know about the "what she hated" description in the original. That said, Michelle Williams managed to convey in Alma's plaintive gasp ("Ennis!) as he turns her over that this was not the first time he did this to her. It also explains why she seemed a little frantic, begging him to "Com' 'ere" as he hovered above her, just before turning her over.
yes, that was painful to watch, her trying to hold onto him so she wouldn't get flipped. The "what she hated" was anal sex, as you probably surmised.

cyoung

  • Guest
Re: Scene: Ennis and Alma & Jack and Lureen
« Reply #42 on: January 26, 2006, 06:47:37 PM »
I haven't read the story yet, so didn't know about the "what she hated" description in the original. That said, Michelle Williams managed to convey in Alma's plaintive gasp ("Ennis!) as he turns her over that this was not the first time he did this to her. It also explains why she seemed a little frantic, begging him to "Com' 'ere" as he hovered above her, just before turning her over.
yes, that was painful to watch, her trying to hold onto him so she wouldn't get flipped. The "what she hated" was anal sex, as you probably surmised.

I got the sense that her anguish was in part because he wouldn't actually look at her during lovemaking.... wouldn't really connect with her. Boy, that scene sure makes Ennis look insensitive, doesn't it? You'd think he would have noticed her dismay.  :(

Cara

Offline peteinportland

  • Obsessed
  • *****
  • Posts: 2063
Re: Scene: Ennis and Alma & Jack and Lureen
« Reply #43 on: January 26, 2006, 07:56:56 PM »
Ennis IS insensitive in a way many men (straight and gay) are still insensitive today. IMO, he wasn't purposefully insensitive to his wife in some of these scenes: he really did not register it or even think about it.

Keep in mind that if Alma never told him she did not like anal sex, then he may have thought it was okay. After all, Jack seemed to enjoy it with him (even compliments him in the book). I've had partners I learned there were certain things they did not like long after we started seeing each other. People are very, very shy when it comes to talking about sex, even with long time partners.

I agree that she was trying to hold him on top of her in this scene, so she could see his face and so that he would not have anal intercourse with her. He was pretty emotional detached from her, wasn't he?

Offline peteinportland

  • Obsessed
  • *****
  • Posts: 2063
Re: Scene: Ennis and Alma & Jack and Lureen
« Reply #44 on: January 27, 2006, 01:25:20 AM »
Last viewing, when Jack asks Randall why women powder their nose just to go home and go to bed, I laughed out loud. Randall replies dumbly, "I don't know." Those two poor guys have no idea the last powder of the night is for them! I never caught the meaning of that line until seeing it explained here. And bless 'em, but they look so clueless. What a great bit of dialog.

And I still marvel at Larry and Diana's back hand compliment to the Marlboro icon when Lashawn tells Lureen "we thought ranching was still all about cowboy hats and Marlboro's." Sorry honey, they have on cowboy hats, but these aren't your father's Marlboro men!