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Author Topic: Scenes with Ennis and Alma OR Jack and Lureen  (Read 195766 times)

Offline In Tears

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Re: Scene: Ennis and Alma & Jack and Lureen
« Reply #45 on: January 27, 2006, 10:10:41 AM »
In my umpteenth viewing of the film I was struck by the parallels between the two scenes where E & J are observed together in moments of passion.  Alma sees them in an embrace and says nothing until much later.  So too, Aguirre waits to say something, although each character has plenty of opportunities to do so.  Alma seizes upon a "got-cha" moment (having herself been insulted) to embarrass E; so too, Aguirre slaps J in the face with his "stem the rose" remark.  E never tells J what Alma said to him, nor does J ever tell E what Aguirre said to him.

The dynamics of these parallel stories speak to me about the cycle that exists between fear, humiliation, and the closet.  The Aguirres and Almas of the world parlay our privacy into a thing of shame.

Thanks to all for your insights.  Great group!


"Later, that dozy embrace solidified in his memory as the single moment of artless, charmed happiness in their separate and difficult lives."

Offline Delmar

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Re: Scene: Ennis and Alma & Jack and Lureen
« Reply #46 on: January 27, 2006, 12:41:08 PM »
In the drive in movie scene....does anyone know the name of the movie alma and ennis are watching?

Offline NYboy

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Re: Scene: Ennis and Alma & Jack and Lureen
« Reply #47 on: January 28, 2006, 12:25:23 PM »
I've seen Brokeback twice now and neither time am I able to make out AlmaJr.'s line to Cassie.  Cassie replies: "You sure do know how to make your point."  What does AlmaJr. say to her?  She's examining a bottle at the time.

Offline peteinportland

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Re: Scene: Ennis and Alma & Jack and Lureen
« Reply #48 on: January 29, 2006, 10:03:03 PM »
I'm reposting something from symbolism because the discussion it generated really belongs here. Thanks for your indulgence  ;)

A couple of thoughts on the scene with the bartender.

1. This is the scene with Jack right before he meets Lureen. I think the filmmakers set up two things for us here. First, we see that Jack is hitting on men, and people are whispering about him. On the rodeo circuit, one sees a lot of the same people over and over. Obviously, Jack does not want to get a reputation as a queer on the rodeo circuit. We may think only Ennis is worried about the public perception, but there are plenty of examples that Jack cannot and will not live as an openly gay man in his society either. He does not want to be perceived as a queer.

Also, we are reminded in this scene that Jack is poor and that he can't even afford a horse (kinda sad for a cowboy).

This is a great set up for him meeting Lureen. He needs to quieten the rumors AND he is poor. Remember he asks the second bartender if he knows Lureen and the bartender tells him how rich her daddy is. At that point he gets a bit of an interesting look on his face, and then Lureen comes up to him. Now isn't it odd that Jack is being pursued here? It is not really in his character to be shy--we notice all the other cowboys did not have a problem approaching Lureen.  We also notice that Jack had no problem approaching Jimbo. I think the contrast in the two scenes speaks volumes.

Here is a poor, gay cowboy being suddenly pursued by a beautiful, rich girl. Bingo! Jack (unlike Ennis) ain't no dummy! He switches on the charm (and then sadly enough a few minutes later while dancing is reminded of Ennis with the song).

2. Remember, Jack is a bull rider (and tell me there is no symbolism in that!). It is perceived as the most manly sport in rodeo. There are no women bull riders (at least in 1965). Calf roping is a bit of a sport for dandy's. Both men and women calf rope. So, I think there was somewhat of a implied insult there. I think Jack got the message. (BTW, when I was growing up, barrel riding, which is Lureen's sport, is only a sport for women--it may have changed, but it was true in their day.) Also, we know on BBM Jack rides a mare. There may be some symbolic language here: shouldn't you stick to mares and not bulls? The bartender may not know Jack rode a mare, but we do, so as viewers, we can catch the symbolism. Also, remember, livestock are important symbols throughout the film (and especially horse symbolism as it applies to Jack and Ennis).

IMO, this scene works beautifully for foreshadowing and sets up of the next parallel scene with Jack and continues the horse/livestock symbolism.
 
 
 

Offline ImEnnisShesJack

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Re: Scene: Ennis and Alma & Jack and Lureen
« Reply #49 on: January 30, 2006, 05:13:15 AM »
In the scene with Jack, Lureen, and the other couple, Lureen says to Jack "Why is it that men don't want to dance with their wives?" 

Can someone help???   ??? ??? ???



                                                  LUREEN: 
It's funny, ain't it?  Husbands don't never seem to dance with their wives.
(sarcastic) Why do you think that is, Jack?

JACK wants to have a good time--doesn't take her bait

                                                  JACK
Ain't never give it a thought.
  (to Lashawn)
Wanna dance?
"And when he shall die,
Take him and cut him out in little stars,
And he will make the face of heaven so fine
That all the world will be in love with night."
~~Heath Ledger 1979-2008~~

Carol8159@yahoo.com

Offline aceygirl

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Re: Scene: Ennis and Alma & Jack and Lureen
« Reply #50 on: January 30, 2006, 08:12:01 AM »
In the scene with Jack, Lureen, and the other couple, Lureen says to Jack "Why is it that men don't want to dance with their wives?" 

                                                  LUREEN: 
It's funny, ain't it?  Husbands don't never seem to dance with their wives.
(sarcastic) Why do you think that is, Jack?

JACK wants to have a good time--doesn't take her bait

                                                  JACK
Ain't never give it a thought.
  (to Lashawn)
Wanna dance?

Boy, I can't wait to receive my copy of "Story to  Screenplay"!  ;D

Does anyone think that line of Lureen's may be a hint that she knows Jack's tendencies?

Offline philchan

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Re: Scene: Ennis and Alma & Jack and Lureen
« Reply #51 on: January 30, 2006, 03:08:25 PM »
In the scene with Jack, Lureen, and the other couple, Lureen says to Jack "Why is it that men don't want to dance with their wives?" 

                                                  LUREEN: 
It's funny, ain't it?  Husbands don't never seem to dance with their wives.
(sarcastic) Why do you think that is, Jack?

JACK wants to have a good time--doesn't take her bait

                                                  JACK
Ain't never give it a thought.
  (to Lashawn)
Wanna dance?

Boy, I can't wait to receive my copy of "Story to  Screenplay"!  ;D

Does anyone think that line of Lureen's may be a hint that she knows Jack's tendencies?


Ha, just got that.
Lureen was the one to ask Jack for a "dance" when they first met, which led to the quickie in the car.
Is she alluding to Jack not paying her much attention at this point in their marriage? Jack doesn't "dance" with his wife
"Only connect ..."
--E.M. Forster

Offline NYboy

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Re: Scene: Ennis and Alma & Jack and Lureen
« Reply #52 on: January 30, 2006, 05:35:44 PM »
I'm one of the few who never read much meaning into Lurleen's "Husbands never seem to dance with their wives." 

First, it reminds me of the line in the song "Chicago":  "Why, I saw a man dancing with his own wife...in Chicago, Chicago, that toddlin' town."

Second, it seems to be stated as a universal truth as opposed to "Jack never seems to want to dance with me."

Still, this screenplay is so rich with meaning everywhere that I suppose I shouldn't discount subtext.  I guess I'll have to watch Lurleen's face more carefully on viewing # 3 when she's saying it.


Offline Charlie

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Re: Scene: Ennis and Alma & Jack and Lureen
« Reply #53 on: January 31, 2006, 03:22:12 PM »
Do you think that Jack and Lureen "had to" get married?

Offline NYboy

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Re: Scene: Ennis and Alma & Jack and Lureen
« Reply #54 on: January 31, 2006, 07:09:31 PM »
Do you think that Jack and Lureen "had to" get married?

What an interesting thought...it sure would explain her father's disdain for Jack.  The guy who knocked up his little girl.

Offline romeshvr

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Re: Scene: Ennis and Alma & Jack and Lureen
« Reply #55 on: February 01, 2006, 04:39:49 AM »

the realization renders him speechless, and then the women come out.. of course, the audience then laughs because lashawn is STILL talking a blue streak. however, the depth of the situation was not lost on me, and as the lashawn's conversation ends with "...boy we were behind the times..." i was still reeling from what had just gone down between the two men.
Quote

I also noticed as the girls came out and randall looked their way, jack gave him another look...i don't know if anyone noticed...that's why i think randall was hitting on jack..wanting a 'fishin buddy'...and jack knew...i also thought when jack realized what happend he thought of ennis..his eyes looked red...watery......too bad we will never know if jack too up randall's offer for sure...although jack's father mentions it at the end as the neighbor rancher at the end...it would have made it real if we saw randall and jack fishing :)

Offline aceygirl

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Re: Scene: Ennis and Alma & Jack and Lureen
« Reply #56 on: February 01, 2006, 09:35:19 AM »
I'm one of the few who never read much meaning into Lurleen's "Husbands never seem to dance with their wives." 

First, it reminds me of the line in the song "Chicago":  "Why, I saw a man dancing with his own wife...in Chicago, Chicago, that toddlin' town."

Second, it seems to be stated as a universal truth as opposed to "Jack never seems to want to dance with me."

Still, this screenplay is so rich with meaning everywhere that I suppose I shouldn't discount subtext.  I guess I'll have to watch Lurleen's face more carefully on viewing # 3 when she's saying it.



It might very possibly not mean anything for Lureen herself--but the irony is apparent as Randall ends up hitting on Jack, thus bringing the viewer a new perspective on why these particular husbands don't wanna dance with their wives!  :P

Yes, I've wondered about the possibility that Jack knocked Lureen up too. After all, at least in the book it's clear he never really wanted a child. A pregnancy, Lureen's apparent crush on him, her money, and the need to appear hetero may all have conspired to force Jack into marriage.


The bond between Jack and Lureen seems to me to stem at least partly from their mutual  daddy issues.

Offline dogged

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Re: Scene: Ennis and Alma & Jack and Lureen
« Reply #57 on: February 01, 2006, 02:40:06 PM »

2. Remember, Jack is a bull rider (and tell me there is no symbolism in that!). It is perceived as the most manly sport in rodeo. There are no women bull riders (at least in 1965). Calf roping is a bit of a sport for dandy's. Both men and women calf rope. So, I think there was somewhat of a implied insult there. I think Jack got the message. (BTW, when I was growing up, barrel riding, which is Lureen's sport, is only a sport for women--it may have changed, but it was true in their day.) Also, we know on BBM Jack rides a mare. There may be some symbolic language here: shouldn't you stick to mares and not bulls? The bartender may not know Jack rode a mare, but we do, so as viewers, we can catch the symbolism. Also, remember, livestock are important symbols throughout the film (and especially horse symbolism as it applies to Jack and Ennis).

IMO, this scene works beautifully for foreshadowing and sets up of the next parallel scene with Jack and continues the horse/livestock symbolism. 
 

Thanks for explaining that! I'll start explaining these things to people who see the movie and they'll think I'm brilliant. I knew there was something insulting about what the bartender said, but didn't know the details. If it had just been the rebuff by Jimbo, Jack wouldn't have left his nearly full beer on the bar, because that would have cast more suspicion on him, if he were worried that Jimbo was telling his friends that Jack had been hitting on him. That kind of super charged macho environment makes me shudder.

I also remember, although I could be wrong, that when Jack sat down with Jimbo, they show a fraction of a second of a kind of flirty wink. That seemed to make it a little more of a pick up than had he not done that. Perhaps there was a little more sustained eye contact too, something straight men don't do with each other.

As you wrote, a lot of the same crowd travels from rodeo to rodeo, so they know a lot about each other.

The attempted clown pickup was on a night after the clown saved him and he didn't do too well, which could have been weeks before he met smart, pretty, wealthy Lureen. Plus, with Lureen, there was a brief flirtation during the rodeo that seemed genuine. I think of Jack as being bi, maybe 20% straight, and was attracted to Lureen because after all the strike-outs with men, at least he could score with her, and like nearly all bi men, he thought that marrying her would help him to forget Ennis and his attraction for men. In other words, I don't think he dated or married her just for cover. If he'd been completely aware that he was more attracted to men at the time, he wouldn't have been risking too much trying to pick up rodeo people, but instead just meeting guys at a Greyhound bus station or something. There could have also been the element that he saw her wealth as a way out of rodeo, since he was getting injured a lot and didn't know how long it would last, not knowing that her father was a jerk.

I don't know if this has been mentioned -- probably has -- but I see the Jimbo scene as a possible set up, to snare Jack. Jimbo's friends could have put him up to sitting at the bar alone and letting Jack think he wanted to be picked up, as a test. They may have wondered about Jack, because he hadn't been aggressive enough in trying to pick up ladies, not making lewd comments about every babe that goes by, nor did he seem comfortable around the guys.

This confuses me though, because it seems like that a guy as good looking and personable as Jack, straight men like hanging around that type of guy too, and being a bull rider, who would even think it. I guess all it would take though, would be for Jack to hit too hard on the wrong guy once, or someone to say something, like Aguerre blabbing to someone, while on the phone about a load of sheep.
And a little dog loved Jack back.

Offline HerrKaiser

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Re: Scene: Ennis and Alma & Jack and Lureen
« Reply #58 on: February 01, 2006, 04:12:32 PM »
I apologize for the directness of my questions but I have zero experience in these matters.  Perhaps the straight men (and women) there can help me.  Thanks.

In E's first sex scene with Alma, she ends up facing downward.  In the story it says, "he rolled her over and did quickly what she hated."  Later, in the "I'd have 'em if you'd support 'em" scene, the story says Alma "... thought, [a]nyway what you like to do don't make too many babies."

Is E having anal sex with her or is this vaginal sex from behind?  How common is anal sex among heterosexual couples?  Is it pleasurable for the woman or is it painful?  Is it deemed degrading or humiliating, or simply a variation of normal, healthy sex?

Yes, he is having anal sex with her in my opinion, and yes, it is probably to remind him of his encounters with Jack.  I was wondering when someone was going to bring this up -- I was just about to myself!

At the root of my questions:  Is the implication here that E is using Alma for J?

Thanks for any insights.

Yes, Sarah, I agree with you. I felt from the first screening I had that he was using Alma and imagining she was Jack. IN fact, the previous scene of Alma trying to relax his muscles suggested to me that he was thinking of Jack, since he went through the entire scene with his eyes closed.

helen_uk

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Re: Scene: Ennis and Alma & Jack and Lureen
« Reply #59 on: February 01, 2006, 04:29:51 PM »
In Tears, from my reading of the story and seeing the movie I think it's definitely referring to anal sex between Ennis and Alma.  And I think he's substituting her for Jack.  Notice in the scene in the movie, just before he flips her over, he turns out the light.  My first thought was he did that so he could pretend it was Jack.  Just my opinion.

When I first saw the movie and was watching the sex scenes between him and Alma I was a bit confused, as he seemed to be enjoying himself.  But then we get to the end, he switches the light out, flips her over, and it's obvious she was Jack all along.