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Author Topic: Scenes with Ennis and Alma OR Jack and Lureen  (Read 195863 times)

Offline HerrKaiser

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Re: Scene: Ennis and Alma & Jack and Lureen
« Reply #60 on: February 01, 2006, 05:08:59 PM »
Question for everyone. This has been bugging me for weeks....

In ALL four of my viewings of the film (all in San Francisco), the same thing happened during two scenes. When Alma opens the apartment door and sees Ennis and Jack kissing in the alley and also when Alma is filmed alone, desperate, at the kitchen table when Ennis is gone off....there was general laughter in the audience.

Each time, I couldn't believe that a large number of viewers found it funny that this woman discovers such a thing as devastating as her husband involved with Jack. Is the public so tainted to view everything like "Dynasty" episode?  >:(

It was truly annoying and, in fact, sad and disappointing, and wonder if you all experienced any such behavior during those scenes. Thanks!

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Re: Scene: Ennis and Alma & Jack and Lureen
« Reply #61 on: February 01, 2006, 05:17:10 PM »
It was truly annoying and, in fact, sad and disappointing, and wonder if you all experienced any such behavior during those scenes. Thanks!

Hi! Yes, many of us saw this also and there's been some discussion on this topic in the Audience thread: 

http://davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=152.msg4900#msg4900

Offline Chuck Ivins

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Re: Scene: Ennis and Alma & Jack and Lureen
« Reply #62 on: February 01, 2006, 06:36:48 PM »
In the scene where Ennis "kicks the bucket" following the fight with Alma on the way to work:  am I being too obscure, or could this be a hint of an upcoming death?
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Offline ellye

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Re: Scene: Ennis and Alma & Jack and Lureen
« Reply #63 on: February 02, 2006, 04:37:44 PM »
I apologize for the directness of my questions but I have zero experience in these matters.  Perhaps the straight men (and women) there can help me.  Thanks.

In E's first sex scene with Alma, she ends up facing downward.  In the story it says, "he rolled her over and did quickly what she hated."  Later, in the "I'd have 'em if you'd support 'em" scene, the story says Alma "... thought, [a]nyway what you like to do don't make too many babies."
Is E having anal sex with her or is this vaginal sex from behind?  How common is anal sex among heterosexual couples?  Is it pleasurable for the woman or is it painful?  Is it deemed degrading or humiliating, or simply a variation of normal, healthy sex?

At the root of my questions:  Is the implication here that E is using Alma for J?

Thanks for any insights.
I haven't read the book yet, but just going by that, at the stage she said it, having seen Jack and Ennis years before and knowing what they do every year, it sounds like she's saying she knows he prefers to be with Jack, with whom he has anal sex, which 'don't make too many babies'.

Just what it sounds like to me having not seen it before. Like she's telling him she knows he's gay and would rather be with Jack than her and she's had enough.

A simplistic view maybe, as someone who hasn't read the book!

Offline maturben

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Re: Scene: Ennis and Alma & Jack and Lureen
« Reply #64 on: February 02, 2006, 06:06:04 PM »
Ellye--yes, it's anal sex. Can't really help you on the hetero question.  Get a copy of the original story as there is an indication there that Ennis brings Alma to climax manually.  See a previous posting of mine.
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Offline Island in the Sea

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Re: Scene: Ennis and Alma & Jack and Lureen
« Reply #65 on: February 04, 2006, 10:47:44 AM »
In the scene where Alma is scraping the dishes after the Thanksgiving dinner, it seems to me that she is trying to relieve herself of continued responsibility for Ennis. She wants to "clean Ennis off her plate".  This she can do by either seeing him remarry or by exposing him as "not the marrying kind."  I wonder if she is trying to help Ennis, hurt Ennis or really do neither. She may be just trying to move on, with more concern for her own life. Running the water into the sink may indicate time is passing, things are changing and/or she wants things clean. In this scene, Ennis is the one who gets emotionally "rolled over" and Alma does to him what he hates. Thus Alma has a chance to treat Ennis the way he treated her in sex. By calling Jack "Nasty" and following that with "You and him...", Alma can say that Ennis is nasty, too. In the screenplay, after he threatens her, she orders him out of her house. She quits him.

For all the suffering Alma endures, it is less than that endured by Ennis. As a heterosexual woman, Alma is can imagine better fates for herself than to stay married to Ennis. She is free to find another man and openly marry him. Ennis has only Jack as his outlet for happiness. He doesn't find a way to integrate his desires into a respectable social life.


Offline dogged

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Re: Scene: Ennis and Alma & Jack and Lureen
« Reply #66 on: February 05, 2006, 10:20:39 AM »
I like the introduction of the Lureen character and the way she meets Jack, her first flirt with him on screen. It was lots of fun.

ANNOUNCER: Here she comes ladies and gentleman, oh boy, look at her fly….

As Lureen rockets onto the screen on her horse, in her home town rodeo.

This delightfully light scene follows the heaviness of the previous; the shot of Ennis, posed against firework rockets going off, the archetypal man and cowboy father having defended his family against two crude drunks at the 4th of July picnic.

Lureen takes off around the barrels and her hat flies off in front of Jack and he picks it up for her, and the flirtatious Lureen, a girl who knows what she likes when she sees it, thanks him and looks back for good measure. In other words, she does just about everything a girl could do to show interest, short of "a matin' call" which she mentions in the bar that evening, in her great line, which reminds me of Mae West. In western bars, many a woman will probably try that line on some of the shyer guys, "Whaddaya waitin for cowboy, a matin' call." Perhaps, seeing the movie, women will watch a cowboy carefully for a while though, to make sure he ain't checking out the guys, which is the real life bar scene that inspired Proulx to write the short story.

Real life sets in fast for Jack and Lureen, in the form of Lureen's Dad. Even before the Thanksgiving scene, we see Jack, standing in the corner looking handsome as hell, smiling at his wife and newborn, with father-in-law treating him like a lackey, putting him down by saying the male newborn looks like his wife, who reminds me of Mrs. Danvers from REBECCA. As Jack's kid grows up, he starts to look a bit like Jack's father-in-law. Wonder if that was intentional.





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Re: Scene: Ennis and Alma & Jack and Lureen
« Reply #67 on: February 05, 2006, 12:27:27 PM »
  I think Alma may have just been doing the dishes but there may be more symbolism in this scene than I am able to pick up on.
  Her comment about Ennis needing to re-marry may have been an attempt to guide him back to a heterosexual relationship and her worry about him "being alone" is more a concern about his temptation to be with another man.  Almost as if he needs a chaperone to keep him out of "trouble".
  The "Jack nasty" outburst is a perfect expression of her hatred towards Jack and his interference in their lives as well as demonstrating her complete anger and disgust towards Ennis' relationship with Jack.

Offline SquallCloud

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Re: Scene: Ennis and Alma & Jack and Lureen
« Reply #68 on: February 05, 2006, 11:16:10 PM »
I've seen it 5 times. The first time I saw it there was a lot of laughter in the audience during these emotional secens. In fact it kind of dulled some of the emotional resonance because the audience was so lively but I didn't let it get to me. The place was packed and it was almost entirely gay men. I think there was some snickering at another screening too. However people veiw the film, as long as their viewing it and enjoying it I can't complain too loudly.

Thanks everyone for the insigt on the calf roping thing. I felt as though I'd missed something too East coast city girl that I am. I wish we could have seen more Jack and Lureen because her bitterness just kinda is there. There's no leading up to she's just all of a sudden wearing big hair and complaining about how "Husbands don't ever wanna dance with their wives."

Offline gnash

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Re: Scene: Ennis and Alma & Jack and Lureen
« Reply #69 on: February 07, 2006, 05:22:51 AM »
posted this on another thread in response to a question, but thought it might sit well here, if only as an addendum to my earlier post on this thread regarding the "shall we dance" scene between randall and jack when jack was with lureen at the dance:

So can someone explain the nose powdering?

i posted my take on the nose powdering here: http://davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=599.msg16208#msg16208

i think it wasn't so much random chit chat as a calculated choice of words by the screenplay writers. perhaps it was meant to sound random but even i felt jack knew what he was asking when he posed the question to randall. i felt he was trying to get a feel for the guy. if you're straight, or at least attuned to the desires of your "woman," then you might have an answer to the question. but no, randall was clueless.

i agree with rickb on what jack is all about regarding his love for jack. however, i felt he was exceedingly frustrated with ennis' reluctance to commit and held out long after the divorce, but the high altitude fucks weren't enough -- and so that's why he was seeing (the geographically closer) randall, admitting to ennis this fact (in a lie about the ranchhand's wife) and even going so far as to tell his father about the new guy that he wanted to bring up to the ranch.

of course, many here see jack as fully commited to ennis. maybe spiritually, emotionally... but certainly not physically. his "hell yes i been to mexico" seemed to spell that out, and no, i don't think he went to mexico just once. jack admits he's not like ennis.

jack twist was pretty insatiable if you ask me -- knew what he liked, knew how to get it. he sensed he was different from an early age, and because of this had a different outlook on his sexuality. he wasn't afraid of it, and i think his experiences growing up and in the meantimes throughout the 20 years with ennis (which boils down to what, maybe two years of actual time together?) meant he knew how to read a man.

jack read randall like an open book, and his question about nose powdering may have been line he used before to determine, in his subtle way, if a man was maybe gay -- or bisexual.  think of the various ways randall, or any straight man, could have answered the question.

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Offline ingmarnicebbmt

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Re: Scene: Ennis and Alma & Jack and Lureen
« Reply #70 on: February 07, 2006, 09:03:45 AM »
It's hard to believe that such a good-looking couple (handsome Jack and beautiful Lureen) should have such a sour-looking, unattractive little boy - a punishment for both living a lie? Why do the filmmakers show us then such a pretty Alma Jr.? Is this meant to prove that Ennis's marriage was the "superior" one of the two, the "straighter"? Or did they want to show that Jack, in spite of his caring for his boy's school success and driving him around in the tractor, just simply wasn't ABLE to love his "ugly" son the same way Ennis loves Alma jr.?
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Offline cricket99999

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Re: Scene: Ennis and Alma & Jack and Lureen
« Reply #71 on: February 07, 2006, 10:09:58 AM »
I think it's to emphasize that Jack is an outsider within the Newsome family -- Bobby really did resemble JD Newsome more than he resembled Jack.

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Re: Scene: Ennis and Alma & Jack and Lureen
« Reply #72 on: February 07, 2006, 12:03:22 PM »
It's hard to believe that such a good-looking couple (handsome Jack and beautiful Lureen) should have such a sour-looking, unattractive little boy - a punishment for both living a lie? Why do the filmmakers show us then such a pretty Alma Jr.? Is this meant to prove that Ennis's marriage was the "superior" one of the two, the "straighter"? Or did they want to show that Jack, in spite of his caring for his boy's school success and driving him around in the tractor, just simply wasn't ABLE to love his "ugly" son the same way Ennis loves Alma jr.?

Ugly? I don't think he was ugly at all. He looked more like the father-in-law than Jack, though.

Cara

Offline peteinportland

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Re: Scene: Ennis and Alma & Jack and Lureen
« Reply #73 on: February 07, 2006, 08:58:38 PM »
It's hard to believe that such a good-looking couple (handsome Jack and beautiful Lureen) should have such a sour-looking, unattractive little boy - a punishment for both living a lie? Why do the filmmakers show us then such a pretty Alma Jr.? Is this meant to prove that Ennis's marriage was the "superior" one of the two, the "straighter"? Or did they want to show that Jack, in spite of his caring for his boy's school success and driving him around in the tractor, just simply wasn't ABLE to love his "ugly" son the same way Ennis loves Alma jr.?

I got a big chuckle out of this one. I didn't think he was ugly either, but I love the way you put it.


Offline aceygirl

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Re: Scene: Ennis and Alma & Jack and Lureen
« Reply #74 on: February 08, 2006, 02:49:30 PM »


Ugly? I don't think he was ugly at all. He looked more like the father-in-law than Jack, though.

Cara

A chilling link, perhaps, to the day the son was born and the stud duck/ignorant bastard coos "Don't he look just like his grandpa? Don't he?" (Blech!)