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Author Topic: News & Current Events  (Read 1113875 times)

Offline michaelflanagansf

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Re: News & Current Events
« Reply #240 on: February 16, 2009, 01:32:08 PM »
Has Iran ever officially apologized for the hostage crisis?

You know, I don't think so.  But then again, I don't think we ever apologized to them for the CIA coup that overthrew Mosaddeq and installed the Shah and subjected them to years of torture at his hands.  So I guess there's enough blame to go around.
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Offline Zudos

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Re: News & Current Events
« Reply #241 on: February 16, 2009, 01:39:52 PM »
Guys,

Thanks for saying that... I thought I was going quite mad, and being overly liberal... Obama has made a few comments about Iran and building relations, but also said that Iran first has to unclench its fist... Does it...? I would have thought an apology or gesture from USA/UK would be more appropriate to get the process started...

Are your feelings general across the US?     

Has Iran ever officially apologized for the hostage crisis?


I do not think they have apologised to any of the nations of the hostages.

But I think that at one point a US president said that 'Goodwill begets Goodwill' and then asked Iran for help with the hostages in the Lebanon because of their association with the Hezbollah. And then Iran waited for Goodwill back and when they asked, they were told that USA could not show goodwill due to their other 'Terrorist' activities...

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Offline Zudos

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Re: News & Current Events
« Reply #242 on: February 16, 2009, 01:40:47 PM »

Has Iran ever officially apologized for the hostage crisis?


Is the Pope Lutheran?

And it's not only the West which has troubles with Iran's nuclear ambitions. The neighboring countries are not particularly encouraging of Iran developing nuclear weapons, which are not particularly defensive. An Iranian leader would not be praised for showering foreign troops on home soil with radioactive material because of the side effects it would have on the people of the homeland.



Thanks Fritzie... On what basis do you say 'which are not particularly defensive'...?
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Offline Zudos

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Re: News & Current Events
« Reply #243 on: February 16, 2009, 01:42:06 PM »
Would like to say I found it "amusing" as to how Iran handled the release of the 52 American hostages they held for over 400 days, but it really wouldn't be respectful to the once held hostages to call anything about their ordeal amusing.

While I will probably step on some toes here, Carter could have ended this if he would have taken the balls to do so.  He did have at least one, if not a couple botched rescue attempts, so I have to give him credit for that.  But the crisis ended on January 19th, 1981, and the actually release of the hostages occurred the following day, January 20th; just minutes after Ronald Reagan was sworn in.

I don't think this was coincidence, for the Iranian leaders at that time had no doubt in their minds Reagan would have moved in with troops, bombers, even nukes if necessary to secure the hostages release.  In other words they recognized Reagan had the balls that Carter didn't.

So are you saying that the hostages were only released because they felt under threat that Reagan would obliterate them...?
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Offline Zudos

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Re: News & Current Events
« Reply #244 on: February 16, 2009, 01:46:55 PM »
And it makes me wonder, and in fact actually insesnses me, as to why the West, particularly the UK and USA continue with their treatment of Iran...? And why everyone is so worried as to whether they have nuclear capacity.

Fact: The West supported terror when it supplied Sadam with weapons in the 80's.
Fact: Iran's military strategy has always been one of deterence, and they have not invaded another country in over 2 centuries.
Fact: The West tried to manipulate the Iranian Governement for the better part of the 20th Century

Sorry if this is the wrong thread, but not sure where else I could see who wanted to discuss this...

Thanks.

Part of the problem, at least for me Wayne, is that Iran reacted to imperialist politics with reactionary religion.  And that in the not too distant past it was an imperialist nation in its own right.

It is worth keeping in mind that the west is hardly the first group they've fought with or had problems with.  The Safavids fought wars with the Ottomans from the 16th through the 18th centuries.  And the Safavids were an imperialist state and fought with their neighbors (including the Afghans, with whom they still have a tenuous relationship).  Problems in Persia continued into the 20th century when the Persian Socialist Soviet Republic was established in the 1920s.  Reza Khan's interest in and cooperation with Hitler is particularly troubling - especially given the activity of the Mufti of Jerusalem at the same time.  And the Mufti is one of the key figures in the development of radical Islam and the hatred of the Jews that has taken root in the middle east - it was certainly not part of the world view of the Ottomans (regardless of what the nutters who say the want to restart the Caliphate say).

Reza Khan's activity in cooperation with the Germans is, at least in part, what lead to the invasion of the country by the British and the Soviets - and the beginning of the problems that the country has had with the west.

So yes - everything you say above is true - but the history of the region does not begin in the 80s.  And though I would have much preferred that Mohammed Mosaddeq's secular of the government of the 50s would have taken root and we would not have the Basij enforcing dress codes on the streets of Iran, that is not what happened.

What is particularly problematic for me now is that they have gone back to a style of government that pre-dates even the government of Reza Khan.  It is as nutty as the recent attempts to involve religion in government in the U.S. - and it does the people of Iran little good.  I have recently met some students at Stanford who are all too happy to be studying in the U.S.

All in all I'd say there's more than enough indignation to go around for everyone.



Thanks for that Michael... The preceding history, particularly the affiliation with Germany plays a part... I suppose unlike Italy and Japan, Iran did not try to make amends following WWII, but whether they had a chance or not with the Angelo Russian treaty deciding their political fate or not, will never be known.

Also I quite agree about religious government... It tends to evoke the fanatics. I have no idea what the Koran says about ruling nations. I know the Bible recommends steering clear of politics.   
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Offline BayCityJohn

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Re: News & Current Events
« Reply #245 on: February 16, 2009, 01:50:00 PM »
Has Iran ever officially apologized for the hostage crisis?

You know, I don't think so.  But then again, I don't think we ever apologized to them for the CIA coup that overthrew Mosaddeq and installed the Shah and subjected them to years of torture at his hands.  So I guess there's enough blame to go around.

In 2000, at a state dinner in Washington, Secretary of State Madeline Albright directly apologized for specific past American actions toward Iran, from our role in orchestrating the overthrow of Prime Minister Mohammed Mosaddeq, to our backing of the Shah, to our backing of Iraq in its war with Iran. Albright also highlighted President Clinton's personal belief that America "must bear its full share of responsibility for the problems that have arisen in U.S.-Iranian relations."

http://articles.latimes.com/2000/mar/18/news/mn-10114

Offline Zudos

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Re: News & Current Events
« Reply #246 on: February 16, 2009, 01:50:43 PM »
Has Iran ever officially apologized for the hostage crisis?

You know, I don't think so.  But then again, I don't think we ever apologized to them for the CIA coup that overthrew Mosaddeq and installed the Shah and subjected them to years of torture at his hands.  So I guess there's enough blame to go around.

The hostages in Tehran were taken because US gov't allowed the Shah to receive medicial treatment in USA... I am torn on my opinion of this, as can you imagine the Wests response to an Islamic republic giving public hospitality to someone like Saddam or Bin Laden? But on the other hand surely humanitarian morals should compel us to allow anyone to seek medical treatment? Even the worst kind of criminal should not surely be deprived of basic human rights...?     
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Offline fritzkep

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Re: News & Current Events
« Reply #247 on: February 16, 2009, 01:50:56 PM »
Hey Wayne! Nuclear weapons are pretty blunt to be effective defensive weapons. They have some deterence value, but when you start shooting them off in your own country as a defensive measure, they destroy more than conventional weapons would. And having nuclear weapons makes one's neighbors nervous and more likely to stage preemptive attacks to deter deployment of the nuclear. It could lead to a rather vicious cycle.

And shooting them off toward neighboring countries would not be construed by the neighbors as defensive.

« Last Edit: February 16, 2009, 01:57:50 PM by fritzkep »
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Offline Zudos

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Re: News & Current Events
« Reply #248 on: February 16, 2009, 01:53:08 PM »
Has Iran ever officially apologized for the hostage crisis?

You know, I don't think so.  But then again, I don't think we ever apologized to them for the CIA coup that overthrew Mosaddeq and installed the Shah and subjected them to years of torture at his hands.  So I guess there's enough blame to go around.

In 2000, at a state dinner in Washington, Secretary of State Madeline Albright directly apologized for specific past American actions toward Iran, from our role in orchestrating the overthrow of Prime Minister Mohammed Mosaddeq, to our backing of the Shah, to our backing of Iraq in its war with Iran. Albright also highlighted President Clinton's personal belief that America "must bear its full share of responsibility for the problems that have arisen in U.S.-Iranian relations."

http://articles.latimes.com/2000/mar/18/news/mn-10114

You know John I did not know this and neither did the documentary cover it... Hmmm maybe its not as unbiased as I thought. There is a 3rd part this week however...

Was 2000 before or after President Bush declared Iran one of the evil terrorist nations of the world...?   
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Offline michaelflanagansf

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Re: News & Current Events
« Reply #249 on: February 16, 2009, 01:55:57 PM »
In 2000, at a state dinner in Washington, Secretary of State Madeline Albright directly apologized for specific past American actions toward Iran, from our role in orchestrating the overthrow of Prime Minister Mohammed Mosaddeq, to our backing of the Shah, to our backing of Iraq in its war with Iran. Albright also highlighted President Clinton's personal belief that America "must bear its full share of responsibility for the problems that have arisen in U.S.-Iranian relations."

http://articles.latimes.com/2000/mar/18/news/mn-10114

Oh good!  Well, time for them to pony up and apologize, I'd say.
Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. - Karl R. Popper

Offline fritzkep

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Re: News & Current Events
« Reply #250 on: February 16, 2009, 01:56:17 PM »
Before. Bush became president in January 2001.

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Offline Zudos

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Re: News & Current Events
« Reply #251 on: February 16, 2009, 01:56:53 PM »
Hey Wayne! Nuclear weapons are pretty blunt to be effective defensive weapons. They have some deterence value, but when you start shooting them off in your own country as a defensive measure, they destroy more than conventional weapons would. And having nuclear weapons makes one's neighbors nervous and more likely to stage preemptive attacks to deter deployment of the nuclear. It could lead to a rather vicious cycle.



I see what you mean Fritz... Thanks for the clarification...

Do you support Global nuclear disarmament?
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Offline Zudos

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Re: News & Current Events
« Reply #252 on: February 16, 2009, 01:57:51 PM »
Before. Bush became president in January 2001.



So did Bush reverse the good meaning with his rather propogandic anti Iran statements...? 
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Offline BayCityJohn

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Re: News & Current Events
« Reply #253 on: February 16, 2009, 01:58:02 PM »

Was 2000 before or after President Bush declared Iran one of the evil terrorist nations of the world...?   

"Axis of evil" is a term coined by United States President George W. Bush in his State of the Union Address on January 29, 2002 in order to describe governments that he accused of helping terrorism and seeking weapons of mass destruction. President Bush named Iran, Iraq and North Korea in his speech. President Bush's presidency has been marked by this notion as a justification for the War on Terror.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axis_of_evil

Offline fritzkep

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Re: News & Current Events
« Reply #254 on: February 16, 2009, 02:03:01 PM »
Do you support Global nuclear disarmament?

Yes, with the proviso that it is truly global, that a country can't keep inspectors away on the grounds that it harms their sovereignty. Having said that, I would trust the original nuclear powers of the US, Russia, the UK and France more than the more recent members of the club.

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