Columbine

[Nikki]

11.)  In the chapter 'The Parents Group' the stories of Patrick Ireland and Anne Marie Hochhalter are intertwined with information on the Jeffco coverup and the lawsuits following the attack.  Does this make sense to you and work well (as these are both stories about the aftermath of the attacks) or would you have preferred to have the rehabilitation stories presented separately?  Do the stories compliment one another?

I liked the way Patrick's and Anne Marie's stories were intertwined.  They were both so profoundly injured that the stories shared an interesting parallel as to  the nature of their injuries and how they handled their recoveries.  The lawsuits were part of the aftermath and the parents' group, so including this information at this point made sense to me. 

[janjo]

2.) Given what you've read in the chapter 'psychopath' do you think Eric's parents played a role in his behavior - or was he 'born bad'?

Prior to reading this book, I was familiar with the term ‘psychopath’ but didn’t have a scientific idea of what behavior qualified as ‘psychopathic.’  I found this chapter, particularly the checklists, very helpful in that regard.  After considering this material, I don’t think that Eric’s parents had much of a role in his development into a psychopath.  I can understand why many people don’t like to use the term ‘born bad’ to describe a young person, but after reading the story of the five-year-old girl attempting to flush her kitten down the toilet, I’m willing to believe that there’s little a parent can do to change the underlying nature of a person whose brain really is one of a psychopath.  And I’ve read enough psychological studies to believe in the validity of the brain scans such as the ones cited in this chapter.

About all I can suggest now that Eric’s parents could have done would have been interception.  If they had searched his room and closet more thoroughly, and discovered the journals and tapes and pipe bombs and rifle, maybe they could have prevented the actual Columbine incident.  But I no longer think their own discipline would have been sufficient; they would have had to turn him in to authorities, and he would have had to be incarcerated, in order to not be “on the streets” to commit his planned actions.
 

I just wanted to say that I really agree with you about this Debbie. When there is evidence that shows up on brain scans, it is hard then to ascribe psycopathic behaviour to some fault in upbringing. In some ways I would hope that would be a comfort to the parents of Eric Harris. We should not be surprised when people are born with abnormalities of mind any more than we are than when they are born with physical defects. There are so many different syndromes that affect people, but fortunately most of them are not dangerous to others in the way sadistic psycopathy is.
Even when the condition has been diagnosed in a young person, and I have had to teach at least one student in the last year who came to us with a psychiatric report to this affect, it is hard to know what to do.
They can't be locked away unless they actually commit a crime, so really it is more a matter of surveillance. It can be like waiting for a volcano to erupt.

[michaelflanagansf]

Final questions for this section:

21.)  What do you make of Eric's complaints about his medications?  Was he simply trying to be manipulative?  Was he trying to impress the psychiatrist that he was involved in his treatment and that it was having an effect?

22.)  Regarding Wayne Harris' bullet points for his lecture to Eric - does it surprise you that Eric was under this much scrutiny and yet was able to do what he did?  Does this (again) reiterate that Wayne Harris did all that he could to control Eric and that nothing else could have been done?

23.)  What do you make of Dylan's letter to Harriet?  What does his confession to her say about his self image?  Do you think he ever had any intention of delivering this letter?

24.)  If Dylan had committed suicide do you think that Eric would have gone through with the attack?

25.)  Why do you think Eric was fascinated by Nazism?

26)  In discussing the essay Eric wrote for Mr. Tonelli Dave writes, 'What chance did he have against a clever young psychopath?  Few teachers know the meaning of the term.'  Do you think teachers should be educated about psychopathy - and to what end [i.e., would it help prevent future attacks]?

27)  'Who Owns The The Tragedy' is a chapter in which Eric and Dylan don't appear.  Do you think that focusing on someone other than them provides a relief to the reader?  Do you think Dave intentionally gave the reader breathing space here?

28)  In this chapter ('Who Owns') we read more about the recovery of Patrick Ireland.  What do you feel we can learn about human resiliance from his story?  Do you feel that the forgiveness that he espoused is necessary for complete healing?  Why do you think it was more difficult for Patrick's mother to forgive the killers than Patrick?

29)  This chapter also details the struggle between the school and the media upon its reopening.  Does the media seem unnecessarily insensitive to you or are they just trying to do their job?  Where do your sympathies lie here - with the parents, the media, or is it mixed?

30)  Eric talks of his goal of exterminating the species and wanted to torment large groups of people for years after the killings.  Does this strike you as being as juvenile as his rants regarding the WB?  When he talks of his violence does he have a particular audience in mind?  Do you think he realized how unlikely he was to fulfill his goals before he died?

31.)  Which of the milestones (in terms of anniversaries) was particularly noteworthy regarding the recovery of the community to the shootings?  Do you think that the suicide of Ann Marie's mother confused the situation in that people thought it was due to the attack instead of her long term depression?  Do you see the rumors about the TCM still existing as being linked to PTSD in the community?  What manifestations of PTSD were particularly noteworthy to you?  What signs of healing stood out?

32)  Why on earth would the sheriff and undersheriff pose with the killers weapons?  Does this seem irrational and hurtful to you?  Should they have been fired (or recalled - whichever is done in this case) for this behavior?

33)  What is your opinion to the reactions to the revelations concerning the Cassie Bernall story?

34)  Were you surprised that the Klebolds sued Jeffco?  What is your opinions regarding the merits of their case?

35)  Does Eric's attitude toward Robyn (and her feelings toward Dylan) in regard to the purchase of the guns further exemplify the lack of emotions in psychopaths?

36)  Eric mocks his father in his journals by saying 'This is what I am motivated for...This is my goal...This is what I want to do with my life.'   What is your reaction to this and what does it say to you regarding Eric's mental state?

37)  What are your observations regarding the Jeffco Sheriff's department and its delay in releasing its report?  What deficiencies do you see in the reports?  If there had not been lawsuits which forced them to release the reports do you feel they would continue stalling?

Okay...sorry for the delay on these last questions.  This section of the book had a great deal of information and required detailed study, imho.  However, if you have any questions regarding areas I didn't touch on please feel free to add them.

[dejavu]

Just a note to Michael and my fellow question-answerers...I had already gone to bed on Tuesday night before these questions were posted.  Today is my last day before leaving town for the long weekend in SF, and I won't be around too much today. 

I'll answer what I can, but I hope there's a good discussion about these new questions while I'm gone, and I'll read everyone else's ideas when I get back.

[dejavu]

22.)  Regarding Wayne Harris' bullet points for his lecture to Eric - does it surprise you that Eric was under this much scrutiny and yet was able to do what he did?  Does this (again) reiterate that Wayne Harris did all that he could to control Eric and that nothing else could have been done?

This lecture outline shows that Wayne Harris had a good general idea of his son’s behavior, since he mentions sleep habits and study habits, and also the specifics of phone, computer, and “lights out,” which are conditions relevant to Eric’s own room in the basement.  It is a little surprising to me because it sounds as though he intended to monitor what was going on in Eric’s room.  Could Wayne have done more?  Possibly, because he must not have taken a careful look at what was on Eric’s computer even though he mentions Eric’s computer use.  And the bullet points don’t give any indication that he would snoop into the drawers where Eric’s journals and writings may have been stored.

Something else struck me when I was reading the first three bullet points, which Wayne refers to as 1, 2 and 3.  He is taking a very logical approach, rather than an emotional approach, to disciplining Eric.  Eric’s cunning and manipulativeness were also based on logic, rather than emotion.  It occurred to me that Wayne and Eric seemed to share this same underlying logical nature, although Wayne expressed it in a non-psychopathic way.   

[Nikki]

21.)  What do you make of Eric's complaints about his medications?  Was he simply trying to be manipulative?  Was he trying to impress the psychiatrist that he was involved in his treatment and that it was having an effect?

He complained about his meds before he transitioned from Sanchez who was "delighted with Eric" calling him Muy facile hombre in her last entry in his file. He may have been manipulating her to get his meds changed before he was assigned to a new counselor with whom he had no previous experience, and was unsure if the new one would be as susceptible to his charm as Sanchez had been.  He may have complained to Dr. Albert "about the Zoloft being too effective," but it probably appeared that Eric was trying to control his anger and con Albert at the same time.  Fuselier said, I wouldn't be surprised if Eric was being honest and straightforward with his doctor...Psychopaths attempt to, and often succeed, in manipulating health professionals too.

[Nikki]

22.)  Regarding Wayne Harris' bullet points for his lecture to Eric - does it surprise you that Eric was under this much scrutiny and yet was able to do what he did?  Does this (again) reiterate that Wayne Harris did all that he could to control Eric and that nothing else could have been done?

Wayne Harris seemed to know what Eric was up to most of the time (except for the secret journal), and was frustrated with his son's behavior -- all the arrests, etc.  Instead of his meticulousness in keeping a journal about his son, he should have used this time to confront Eric and consider some type of counseling or therapy -- by now, Wayne should have realized that nothing was working including Diversion; it was time to face reality IMO.

[Nikki]

23.)  What do you make of Dylan's letter to Harriet?  What does his confession to her say about his self image?  Do you think he ever had any intention of delivering this letter?

Dylan lists his fears, guilt, crimes and intimation of suicide.  He even doubts she knows him: You don't consciously know who I am...If she thought he was crazy, please dont tell anyone...please accept his apologies.  IMO it was a letter from a person of low or no self-image, but who wanted acknowledgement from the only love object in his life.  I doubt if he would have had the guts to deliver the letter in this form, it seemed to be the musings of a love-struck teen who doubted himself to such a great extent that the letter comes off more as a confession than a loveletter.

[Nikki]

24.)  If Dylan had committed suicide do you think that Eric would have gone through with the attack?

Yes, I do.  Eric didn't really need Dylan except as a lackey who followed his orders.  Eric was focused on his ultimate plan, and I don't think anything could have stopped him.  If Dylan had backed out, it's possible that Eric would  have shot him with the others IMO.

[Nikki]

25.)  Why do you think Eric was fascinated by Nazism?

The brutality of the SS, the extermination of 11 million people -- the Nazi culture was a psychopath's dream, and fed  Eric's fantasies. He studied Nazism in depth, and his paper on 'The Nazi Culture' was "vivid, comprehensive and detailed."   He was a Nazi manque' who mused on the idea of killing masses of people in a stadium, and was fascinated with swastikas and German phrases.

[Nikki]

26)  In discussing the essay Eric wrote for Mr. Tonelli Dave writes, 'What chance did he have against a clever young psychopath?  Few teachers know the meaning of the term.'  Do you think teachers should be educated about psychopathy - and to what end [i.e., would it help prevent future attacks]?

I think teachers should have courses in Psychology including psychopathy during their undergrad and graduate years. We can't say that it would prevent future attacks, but it might help identify students who are inclined to be psychopathic, especially those with a need to bully other students beyond the normal.

[dejavu]

21.)  What do you make of Eric's complaints about his medications?  Was he simply trying to be manipulative?  Was he trying to impress the psychiatrist that he was involved in his treatment and that it was having an effect?

I was confused about this passage in the book, and it sounds as if Dr. Fuselier and Dave Cullen were not sure what Eric was up to, either. 

Eric may have been trying to impress Dr. Albert (who, as a psychiatrist and medical doctor, would be the one to prescribe medication) that the therapy was making him a “good patient,” one participating in his treatment plan and concerned enough to ask for a change of medication if he felt the Zoloft wasn’t working.  So yes, in that sense, he was being manipulative of Dr. Albert’s opinion of him. 

But at the same time, Eric’s journal reveals that he was opposed to having the medication take away his “bad thoughts” and anger.  Eric wanted to be the one in control of his thoughts and plans, and probably resented having medication threaten to become a controller over him.  In this sense, also, Eric may have been trying to manipulate Dr. Albert’s choice and dosage of medication.

[dejavu]

23.)  What do you make of Dylan's letter to Harriet?  What does his confession to her say about his self image?  Do you think he ever had any intention of delivering this letter?

The letter tells me that Dylan was very lonely (and he imagines finding a soul mate who was lonely also).  He was thinking seriously about suicide (“I will go away soon…”) and he thought he could gain points with her for honesty by confessing to being a criminal.  It showed that he wasn’t totally committed to suicide and was looking for a way out (“if she loved him as strongly as he loved her, he would find a way to survive”).  It also indicated that he had a low self image, made worse by (1) his guilt about the crimes he had committed (2) and the awareness of how having been caught for these crimes would affect his future.

I don’t think he had any intention of delivering the letter.  It can be read as a “cry for help” of a suicidal person, but Harriet would not have been the person to help him, and he seemed to recognize that also.  The letter was more a way for him to express his own sense of desolation with an imaginative piece of writing, rather like a diary might have been.

[dejavu]

Fuselier said, I wouldn't be surprised if Eric was being honest and straightforward with his doctor...Psychopaths attempt to, and often succeed, in manipulating health professionals too.

Just a small correction that I noticed, Nikki.  Fuselier said, "I would be very surprised if Eric was being honest...", not "I wouldn't be surprised if Eric was being honest."  I only point it out because it changes the meaning of the sentence. 

[dejavu]

24.)  If Dylan had committed suicide do you think that Eric would have gone through with the attack?

Yes, I do.  Eric didn't really need Dylan except as a lackey who followed his orders.  Eric was focused on his ultimate plan, and I don't think anything could have stopped him.  If Dylan had backed out, it's possible that Eric would  have shot him with the others IMO.

I am not sure what to think of this.  I do believe that Eric was intent on killing, but Dylan was also feeding his ego by participating in the videos and drills for the attack.  There's a slight chance that Eric would have lost interest if Dylan hadn't been there as a sidekick.  If he still wanted to go with the attack, and Dylan had not been around, Eric would have had to go back to the planning stage and come up with a different approach (for example, it took two people to do the "triangulation" of the attack on the fleeing students which Eric planned as Act II, and he wouldn't have been able to get as many weapons inside for Act I if he had been acting alone).  Without Dylan to help him, Eric may have postponed the attack, chosen another target, etc.

Another thing to consider is that if Dylan had committed suicide, his parents would have searched through his effects and would have found his yearbook, in which Eric had drawn the swastikas and pictures of corpses.  The Klebolds would surely have been alarmed, but it's not clear that they would have recognized Eric's writing/scribbling.  If they found actual threatening material about NBK, they may have gone to authorities, and Eric may have been investigated, but it appears that the most specific "warnings" about NBK were written in Eric's yearbook.

-------------------

Also, the question asks about Dylan committing suicide, not backing out.  Had he committed suicide, Eric naturally couldn't have killed him.  If Dylan had simply backed out, Eric would have had enough material written by Dylan (in his Eric's yearbook, etc.) that Eric the manipulator might have tried using this as a tool to force Dylan to act against his will and participate (with the threat, "or I'll kill you").  However, it gets complicated if we accept that Dylan wanted to die anyway; he might not have been susceptible to that type of pressure.  Eric might, in the end, have killed Dylan, but this one murder might have derailed Eric's plans for a much greater attack if he had been caught and imprisoned for murdering Dylan, so I don't feel that I can make a good guess one way or the other what Eric would have done to Dylan if he backed out.