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Author Topic: Columbine  (Read 264731 times)

Offline Nikki

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Re: Columbine
« Reply #525 on: July 20, 2009, 11:44:09 AM »

16.)  What do you feel that the basement tapes add to our understanding of the mental state of Eric and Dylan and their motivations?


Agent Fuselier's conclusion that while the journals explained motive, the tapes conveyed personality, he understood that the tapes had been "shot for an audience."   Dylan was louder and brasher, Eric was the one behind the camera; Dylan the actor, Eric the director.  Fuselier noticed that Dylan gave himself away with his eyes,  shouting like a madman, but always looking to Eric for approval. The tapes were performance theater for whomever found them after the massacre. They documented the shooters' legacy in a way that left no doubt as to who was the dominant one and who was the follower.  They revealed the killers' characters in a more realistic way than the journals or any writings could do
The shirts hanging on a nail shudder slightly in the draft.

If he does not force his attention on it, it might stoke the day, rewarm that old, cold time on the mountain when they owned the world and nothing seemed wrong.

Bliss was it in that dawn to be alive
But to be young was very heaven!

Offline dejavu

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Re: Columbine
« Reply #526 on: July 20, 2009, 02:22:02 PM »
13.)  In 'The Basement Tapes' Dave says that Dylan and Eric spoke with one voice: Eric's.  What do you think this means?  Did Dylan allow his personality to be subsumed into Eric's?  Given Dylan's depression and lack of self esteem does it seem as if he would want to identify with a strong personality like Eric's?

The book says that Eric introduced most of the ideas; Dylan riffed along.  Even though Dylan was in a very animated mood here (and possibly in a manic phase of his manic-depression), he was still being controlled by Eric and carrying out Eric’s agenda.  I believe the notion of Dylan and Eric speaking with one voice (Eric's) means that Dylan's very words were an expression of Eric’s agenda and the words that Eric would typically have chosen (such as “It’s humans I hate.”).  Dylan appeared as though he had “lost” his own personality and was just Eric’s tool.  Especially considering his own lack of self esteem, Dylan seemed to look up to and admire Eric as the stronger and more confident leader.

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Offline dejavu

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Re: Columbine
« Reply #527 on: July 20, 2009, 02:48:23 PM »
14.)  No one Eric or Dylan named on the tapes was killed.  Does that call the contents of the tape into question - i.e., is it just the ravings of two crazed juveniles?  What is your opinion of the messages they left their parents?

There is some disconnect between the contents of the Basement Tapes and the carefully formulated plans to blow up the school with bombs.  The tapes gave the two boys a chance to leave a film legacy of themselves on camera, to be played back after their death.  They apparently wanted to leave a very dramatic and emotionally wrought “good-bye.”  These tapes weren’t just “ravings of two crazed juveniles” – they were planning a battle, and carried that threat out.  

For “talk show” subject matter, they seemed to drag out a list of everyone who had annoyed them or who they had disliked over the years, and they threw in some random threats to shoot several of these people, “in the jaw,” “in the balls,” etc.  I don’t take these specific threats seriously, because they were planning a mass bombing which would kill people at random, followed by a mass random shooting of everyone fleeing the school.  Even when these bombs failed, what really happened was that Eric and Dylan wandered through the school firing more or less at random (although not consistently:  they skipped a number of people they could have shot).  What I do take seriously is the threat of a battle to come.

I agree with the book and with Dr. Fuselier that Eric’s apologies to his parents were “worthless” and an example of classic psychopathic manipulation.   When he said, “I wish they were out of town so I didn’t have to look at them and bond more,” I laughed, and wondered how much “bonding” he had ever done in the first place.  He must have just learned that that’s an emotionally powerful thing to saw, so he said it, but without feeling.  Dylan’s ridicule of the guilt his parents would feel surprised me a little; I expected that he might have felt a little more genuine sorrow at having to leave them and end his life that way.

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Offline dejavu

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Re: Columbine
« Reply #528 on: July 20, 2009, 03:19:14 PM »
17.)  Did David Brooks interview with the Klebolds reveal things that you weren't expecting in 'Two Hurdles'?  Is it odd that the parents would blame the analysts for the case for not interviewing them when they refused to be interviewed?

I wasn’t surprised that Sue Klebold would have felt offended when she was offered forgiveness by someone; I understood how she and Tom felt that they had not caused their son Dylan to commit murder.  It struck me as a little odd that they still thought of Dylan as having committed suicide, moreso than that he committed murder, although I can see that for them, the loss of their son to suicide was the most life-changing experience. 

What impressed me was when Tom Klebold admitted that he was “a quantitative person”:  a scientist and a businessman.  “We’re not qualified to sort this out.”  That statement went a long way toward explaining how they might have missed the clues about Dylan’s emotional and mental state.  Perhaps it explains their lack of a stronger response when the creative writing teacher called them about the disturbing story Dylan had written.  The Klebolds weren’t psychologists; maybe they shouldn’t have been expected to recognize the danger signs in that story.

The Klebolds seemed like genuine, caring people when they admitted that now they understood how much agony Dylan had been in.  “We didn’t realize it until after the end.”  Again, I felt sorry for them here. 

As for the Klebolds blaming the analysts for not interviewing them, they weren’t happy with what they had read of Dr. Fuselier’s conclusions about their son, and I can understand that.  But I also understand that their refusal to be interviewed stemmed from concern about being held legally or financially responsible for what had happened during the shooting.

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Offline dejavu

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Re: Columbine
« Reply #529 on: July 20, 2009, 03:33:02 PM »
19.)  What do the discoveries regarding the Jeffco cover up lead you to believe regarding the investigation?  Should Jeffco officials have turned their investigation over to another agency (such as the FBI) early on?  Do you feel that justice was done with regards to the cover up?

I tend to think that Sheriff John Stone (since replaced by a new sherriff, Ted Mink) was incapable of performing the duties of his office, at least with regard to a huge case like the Columbine massacre.  I think the initial failure to follow up on the investigation of Eric’s web site in 1997 was an accidental “falling through the cracks,” but that there was an intentional cover up of that failure.  The new sheriff recognized the seriousness of the failure, and recognized the likelihood of a cover up.  That former sheriff Stone would claim this investigation was politically motivated is a signal to me that he wanted to downplay the significance of the evidence and the cover up, and continue to “cover his ass” regarding past behavior in office.  I do agree that, given the scope of the case and Jeffco’s limited experience and manpower, Jeffco officials should have turned their original investigation over to another agency early on.

I doubt that justice was ever completely done regarding the cover up, due to the likelihood of shredding (which can’t be proven) and the permanent loss of some of the information in the Mike Guerra’s file about his pre-massacre investigation of Eric’s web site.

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Offline dejavu

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Re: Columbine
« Reply #530 on: July 20, 2009, 03:57:05 PM »
 
22.)  What did you learn from the chapter 'Quiet'?  Was this a good place in the book to place the chronology of events from the killer's perspective?

I was surprised to learn that this quiet period was pretty normal for a psychopath...while Dylan ...probably resembled a bipolar experiencing a mixed episode: depressed and manic at once. Their boredom with killing explains why they stopped shooting so soon.

I think it was a good place for the chronology of events, because it gives the reader somewhat of a recap about what happened at the killing site in a sequential fashion. The description of the shooters' during the "32-minute quiet period" wandering around, and finally choosing "one of the few unspoiled areas in the room" to kill themselves together with the detailed account of how they looked afterwards is chilling. [Dylan] looked serene. The red letters on his chest screamed WRATH.   An epitaph that was a fitting end to the chapter.

I did think this chapter worked effectively to tie together the various killing sites from the standpoint of the killers.  Previously we had seen various sites from the standpoint of various victims, and when the killers appeared, it was like, “Oh, here they come again,” the overall chronology hadn’t been as clear.  I liked the clarification of this “Quiet” chapter.

Michael, early in our discussion, you asked about points in our reading where we had to put the book down for a “time out” because the reading got too difficult emotionally.  I said I had one of those moments much later in the book, and would mention it when we got there.  Well, this is where it happened, starting at the top of Page 352, when Eric and Dylan returned to the library where they had earlier killed ten people.  Now they entered the room and found the ten corpses:

…Human decay begins rapidly.…Blood is rich in iron, so large volumes emit a strong metallic smell…the spatters were black and crusty.  Stay globs of brain matter would soon be solid as concrete.  They would soon be scraped off with putty knives and the stubborn chunks melted down with steam-injection machines.

I suppose this isn’t any worse than the details on a crime scene investigation show, but suddenly, it puts into very graphic terms here that we’re not just talking about people, victims, and a sanitized “loss of life”:  this is death.  The description on Page 353 of Eric’s actual suicide, followed by Dylan’s, wasn’t much easier to read, as Dylan’s brain matter spewed across Eric’s knee and Blood drained from their skulls and oxidized like blackened halos.  Very effective writing, but the most sickening two pages of the book, for me.

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Offline dejavu

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Re: Columbine
« Reply #531 on: July 20, 2009, 04:30:20 PM »
23.)  In 'At The Broken Places' Patrick Ireland says "The shootings were an event that occurred.  But it did not define me as a person.  It did not set the tone for the rest of my life."  How do the vignettes about the school, the memorial and the survivors confirm or dispute this statement?

Patrick Ireland “broke,” so to speak, but he went on to be strong at his broken places, both physically and emotionally.  Physically, he overcome his handicaps: walking, talking, dancing, achieving scholastically, finally waterskiing again.  Emotionally, he did not allow for any bitterness about the things he’d lost, like an architectural career, and he found a new girlfriend and got married.

The school was broken by the shootings, but eventually was rebuilt physically.  A new generation of high school students arrived who had been in grade school when it happened.  They remember the tragedy, but it is not setting the tone for their years in high school; they no longer use the word Columbine as the name of a massacre.

We can’t tell much about the Harrises and the Klebolds, who were definitely broken by the death of their sons and by the community’s finger-pointing at them.  But it seems that, since they remain in seclusion, they are letting the shootings set the tone for much of the rest of their lives. 

Mr. D went through a divorce largely influenced by PTSD stemming from the shootings, so he was badly broken.  He seems better, and he is now engaged to an old girlfriend, so he is recovering at his broken places.  However, he will probably always be defined by the shootings, in the public’s eye, for as long as remains on the job as principal of Columbine High.

Linda Sanders really let the shootings, and the loss of her husband, define her as a person for years.  Fortunately, she has pulled out of her depression, so perhaps her broken places have begun to heal as well.

Brad and Misty Bernall, although happy in New Mexico, still are still known as the parents of the so-called martyr Cassie, as described in the book ‘She Said Yes.’  Even though they are proud of Cassie and may not want to move on, they continue to seem defined by that event.

Brian Rohrbough, to me, is the saddest example in the book of a man who has let the Columbine shooting and the loss of his son set the tone (a very bitter tone) for the rest of his life.  I’m glad that he has remarried and adopted children; perhaps eventually, this will help to take away some of his bitterness.  But his political involvement, and his angry inscription in the Columbine memorial, indicate that he has been turned into a man who is seeking out rebellious causes as a result of the shooting. 
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Offline Nikki

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Re: Columbine
« Reply #532 on: July 23, 2009, 05:03:47 PM »



Looks like things are winding down, since we've passed the last week of the last section. 

This book has so impressed me more than I  thought it would.  I learned so much about 'Columbine,' the students, parents, and faculty.  I learned more about psychopathy and what a psychopath is.  In a way, it makes one shudder to think that there are more Eric Harris's who walk among us.  As for Dylan, I believe there was something there that could have been redeemed had someone discovered his deepseated problems early on.    However, he still had to bear responsibility for his part in the massacre and, at some point, he had passed the point of redemption. 

After reading 'Columbine,' I appreciate even more the monumental task Dave Cullen signed on for when he started it.  As we learned from his answers to our questions, the book took its toll on him psychologically as well as journalistically, and he deserves our great respect and admiration. 





The shirts hanging on a nail shudder slightly in the draft.

If he does not force his attention on it, it might stoke the day, rewarm that old, cold time on the mountain when they owned the world and nothing seemed wrong.

Bliss was it in that dawn to be alive
But to be young was very heaven!

Offline michaelflanagansf

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Re: Columbine
« Reply #533 on: July 23, 2009, 05:46:47 PM »
There is a news story which Nikki posted here which I think has some similarities to the actions of the sheriff in the Columbine case:

http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=36907.msg1633614#msg1633614
Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. - Karl R. Popper

Offline Nikki

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Re: Columbine
« Reply #534 on: July 23, 2009, 05:56:53 PM »
There is a news story which Nikki posted here which I think has some similarities to the actions of the sheriff in the Columbine case:

http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=36907.msg1633614#msg1633614

Michael, I thought about Columbine when I read that story in today's Phila Inquirer. Another coverup, looks like.  There will be reprecussions.
The shirts hanging on a nail shudder slightly in the draft.

If he does not force his attention on it, it might stoke the day, rewarm that old, cold time on the mountain when they owned the world and nothing seemed wrong.

Bliss was it in that dawn to be alive
But to be young was very heaven!

Offline michaelflanagansf

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Re: Columbine
« Reply #535 on: July 23, 2009, 06:00:27 PM »
Michael, I thought about Columbine when I read that story in today's Phila Inquirer. Another coverup, looks like.  There will be reprecussions.

I certainly hope so.  If I were a parent in this case I'd certainly consider taking legal action - at least against the person in the counseling, if not against the University in general.

The central question for me is who knew about this and approved it?  And how far up did the approval go?
Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. - Karl R. Popper

Offline Nikki

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Re: Columbine
« Reply #536 on: July 24, 2009, 11:01:44 AM »
Michael, I thought about Columbine when I read that story in today's Phila Inquirer. Another coverup, looks like.  There will be reprecussions.

I certainly hope so.  If I were a parent in this case I'd certainly consider taking legal action - at least against the person in the counseling, if not against the University in general.

The central question for me is who knew about this and approved it?  And how far up did the approval go?

Article in today's Phla Inquirer:  Attorney for the former counseling center director at Virginia Tech said yesterday that the director inadvertently took home mental-health records for the student gunman when he left his job a year before the massacre. ...Robert Miller accidentally placed Seung Hui Cho's records in a box he packed with his personal documents when he was leaving his job at the center in February 2006.  Miller opened the box for the first time last week while seaching for any material that could be relevant to a lawsuit filed by families of two of the victims. ...The file has not yet been released to the public.  Apparently the police are investigating whether a crime was committed when the records were removed.

Wouldn't you think Miller would have been scrupulously careful  to check when he packed up his stuff that there were no personal records of students? Seems like there will be a lot of explaining IMO.
The shirts hanging on a nail shudder slightly in the draft.

If he does not force his attention on it, it might stoke the day, rewarm that old, cold time on the mountain when they owned the world and nothing seemed wrong.

Bliss was it in that dawn to be alive
But to be young was very heaven!

Offline michaelflanagansf

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Re: Columbine
« Reply #537 on: July 24, 2009, 01:04:53 PM »
Wouldn't you think Miller would have been scrupulously careful  to check when he packed up his stuff that there were no personal records of students? Seems like there will be a lot of explaining IMO.

Well I would certainly think that when a major crime was committed on the campus of the University that he worked at he would look over what he had taken home from the University to make certain there was nothing that could be related to the killings.

I certainly understand that when you end a job that you may want to pack everything up and put it away.  But for someone who was working in the mental health profession this doesn't seem to be a particularly mentally healthy way to have dealt with this whole situation.
Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. - Karl R. Popper

Offline Nikki

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Re: Columbine
« Reply #538 on: July 24, 2009, 04:53:17 PM »
Wouldn't you think Miller would have been scrupulously careful  to check when he packed up his stuff that there were no personal records of students? Seems like there will be a lot of explaining IMO.

Well I would certainly think that when a major crime was committed on the campus of the University that he worked at he would look over what he had taken home from the University to make certain there was nothing that could be related to the killings.

I certainly understand that when you end a job that you may want to pack everything up and put it away.  But for someone who was working in the mental health profession this doesn't seem to be a particularly mentally healthy way to have dealt with this whole situation.

I agree 100%, Michael.
The shirts hanging on a nail shudder slightly in the draft.

If he does not force his attention on it, it might stoke the day, rewarm that old, cold time on the mountain when they owned the world and nothing seemed wrong.

Bliss was it in that dawn to be alive
But to be young was very heaven!

Offline Dave Cullen

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Re: Columbine
« Reply #539 on: July 26, 2009, 11:10:03 PM »

This book has so impressed me more than I  thought it would.  I learned so much about 'Columbine,' the students, parents, and faculty.  I learned more about psychopathy and what a psychopath is.  In a way, it makes one shudder to think that there are more Eric Harris's who walk among us.  . . .

After reading 'Columbine,' I appreciate even more the monumental task Dave Cullen signed on for when he started it.  As we learned from his answers to our questions, the book took its toll on him psychologically as well as journalistically, and he deserves our great respect and admiration. 


Thanks, Nikki. That was very sweet.

I'm really glad I spent the ten years, but I'm also really glad they're over.