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Author Topic: Symbolism & Imagery, II  (Read 58377 times)

Offline en e me

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Re: Symbolism & Imagery, II
« Reply #30 on: January 18, 2010, 02:02:22 AM »
thanks for looking. I kinda felt the same way until I realized that AL orchastrated a whole 2nd and 3rd layer to the movie and that it wasn't all there to be grasped on first viewing. I think some of what we discuss is not really there and is our endless scruitiny and over active pattern seeking brains, but there are some real details that are meant to be ferreted out. It has made my experince of the movie richer to learn these little details.

Inwooder
And I think we are challenged to dig as deep into this story as we can. At some point the digging slows or stops for all people and if you keep going and try to talk about it you'll be labeled crazy and worse by nearly everyone you have passed but there is a universal connection to our human frailties and faults to be felt personally that keeps the digging going, much of it not transferable. I find the prose is much deeper ground than the movie but that's just me. Since you say you've enjoyed it more experiencing more little details I hope you don't stop looking for them because you thought you'd found them all.

Offline fofol

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Re: Symbolism & Imagery, II
« Reply #31 on: January 19, 2010, 01:04:05 PM »
Inwooder:  Mr Lee put a lot more into the movie than 90% of the people who view it (or more) will ever know about or care about.  This does not diminish the fun for some of us.  I remember a few years ago I was stuck in lurker hell, able to read the posts, but unable to reply.  During that time, one of the regular posters suggested her surprise at Mr Lee being oriental, and the film being singularly devoid of oriental images or references.  It was jump-up-and-down frustration time for me, because the first time I saw the film, the dragons jumped out at me, and nobody was noticing or mentioning them.
I agree with you about the difficulties encountered of not comprehending what others are discussing, but that has gotten much better in recent times.  Still, I go for everything that is there, and have found much insight in the postings in this Forum, even when I was uncertain where the posters were headed with their ideas, and even when I disagreed.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2010, 01:38:31 PM by fofol »
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Offline royandronnie

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Re: Symbolism & Imagery, II
« Reply #32 on: January 20, 2010, 06:02:24 PM »
I would be interested, fofol, in what Oriental imagery you identified, as I'm not really conversant with it myself. Dragons?
"…in the family homestead of his dead lover, the shirts they wore while cowboying together long before: shabby denim and weary cotton, wrapped in each other's arms." Like this. Always.

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Or his deserts are small
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Offline gnash

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Re: Symbolism & Imagery, II
« Reply #33 on: February 28, 2010, 03:28:34 AM »
^^ i saw some curly dragons in ennis's bed head hair when he was with jack at the motel siesta. ;)




they discussed chinese things, a little bit at least, way back in 2006 on this thread:

http://nipith.com/bbm_threads/BlueBlueShirtOfYours.html

O that blue, blue shirt of yours
Remains with my heart intertwined
Although I cannot visit upon you
Whither a note from you shall I find?

qing qing zi jin
you you wo xin
zong wo bu wang
zi ning bu si yin?

The reference doesnít stop here. If you can find Cao Cao (or Tsao Tsao)'s famous poem ìShort Balladî, in which he quoted those two lines from "Shi Jing", you will see that the entire theme is uncannily befitting of BBM, even though Cao himself at that time meant for something else :). (Cao was one of the most famous politicians and military strategists in Chinese history, who lived during the Three Kingdom era ñ around 220 ad, whose son became the first emperor of the Wei Dynasty).



maybe annie was a fan of chinese poetry. ;)


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Offline fofol

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Re: Symbolism & Imagery, II
« Reply #34 on: April 09, 2010, 02:33:15 PM »
I would be interested, fofol, in what Oriental imagery you identified, as I'm not really conversant with it myself. Dragons?

   So sorry I haven't answered sooner, but I kind of gave up on this...  At any rate: when I first started reading and posting, one of the then-regulars mentioned that she was surprised that there wasn't any oriental imagery in the picture, especially considering that Mr. Lee is Taiwanese.  I was amazed that no one seemed to have seen the dragons - they're in the clouds, but really there...
   
   If you look at the clouds just before (or after) Jack hauls the food up inside that critter-proofer tripod, you will see two distinct cloud groupings, one blue or blue-gray (which is looking in a direction which would include the other dragon), and the other that orange-gold color that clouds get around sunset (this dragon is looking from the left to the right of the screen, not in thedirection of the blue one).  There is a traditional theme in most oriental cultures of dragons being angelic, quite unlike the demonic dragons of western culture.  Oriental dragons live in water: rivers, lakes or the sea.  They have long, streaming feelers on their noses to help guide themselves in murky waters, and are regarded as very benevolent, more like angels.  If you see the clouds as dragons, you will notice that the blue-gray one is nearest a much smaller, roundish cloud formation: this represents the pearl of wisdom, wisdom being the primary treasure guarded by these dragons.  If you can get this far into the cloud symbology, and you notice that the 'pearl of wisdom' cloud is mostly blue, with barely a touch of gold, and you might wonder if the 'Jack' dragon is directing the pearl of wisdom to the 'Ennis' dragon.  If you do a google search on oriental dragons and you may come across an article which will blow you away with descriptions of blue and orange dragons - there are many facets of their personalities that match Jack and Ennis.  Good luck with this, and if I can be of any more assistance, I will try.  I will look around to see if I can find more information from you, and I apologize if this is not pluperfect accurate - I haven't seen this part of the film in over a year.
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Offline Sara B

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Re: Symbolism & Imagery, II
« Reply #35 on: April 10, 2010, 07:26:11 AM »

Here you are then, Mike. Yes, I can sort of make them into dragons - which do you think is the pearl then?

I had a quick viewing of that scene in the film just now, and this frame is quite isolated from any of the actual background, so I suppose could easily have been 'made to fit'  (I have no idea what I'm talking about.)  I like the idea anyway.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2010, 07:23:02 AM by Cally »
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Offline fofol

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Re: Symbolism & Imagery, II
« Reply #36 on: April 11, 2010, 06:15:22 PM »
Well you found exactly the site: the blue/gray dragon on the lower right is a more completely realized being, with an arm that stretches along the bottom of the frame,  The 'pearl of wisdom' is the small, roundish form just beyond its 'claws.'  This one even bears the little cloud tendrils as they are usually shown in oriental art.  
   The way the 'golden' dragon is shown, mostly head, was in fact the first clue to me to Ennis's personality - the Earl incident was so severe that it drove Ennis to live his life mostly in his head, which is a common process following exactly the way severely traumatized people behave 'after.'
    The first year of the UBbF, I was not on line, able only to read.  It was incredibly frustrating, and terribly enlightening, and I accepted things proposed by other members quite literally: Mr. Gyllenhall and others familiar with Mr. Lee's work stated that he was one of the most intensely detailed directors they'd ever come across, that he was aware of every detail in every frame.  I took that ball and ran with it: if everything means something, everything is purposeful, so I started looking for things that were not immediately attention-getting.  There are other things in the film which are there, plain as day when you know where to look, but in order for them to be significant, the viewer has to be ready to accept that Mr. Lee is in fact a filmmaker who gets incredible mileage out of his pictures as well as the dialogue, settings and the skills of his collaborators.  There are other images which have gotten short shrift from some of the people I admire most in this Forum.  I don't understand why some people don't seem to get it that films are made of pictures, and some of these pictures really offer clues the written word cannot - try imagining the outcry if the 'clouds as dragons' scene was actually written into the script!  I suspect that there would the blood spouting out of 'purist' noses...  
     It could be that the film is just so perfectly made that an explanation can be found where none was intended, and that argument might be acceptable if we hadn't be assured so strongly that the director is a fanatically detailed creator.  More to come if you find this interesting enough...
« Last Edit: April 12, 2010, 10:26:06 AM by fofol »
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Offline Sara B

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Re: Symbolism & Imagery, II
« Reply #37 on: April 12, 2010, 01:19:36 AM »
Ah, right...  Yes, I can see how you describe them now, and the pearl.  I like it.  And would be happy to hear more :).
“When we grow older still we’ll speak about those two young men as if they were two strangers..... And we’ll want to call it envy, because to call it regret would break our hearts.”

Call Me by Your Name, André Aciman.

Offline fofol

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Re: Symbolism & Imagery, II
« Reply #38 on: April 12, 2010, 07:59:50 AM »
   There's that beautiful four-shot sequence early in the film, Jack's first night sleepin out with the woolies.  Every shot in the sequence is bathed in that full-moon deep blue: from the establishing shot of sheep in the moonlight to Jack looking at the only break in the dark,  Ennis's fire (which, BTW, if Jack could actually see it the size it apparently is, it would have to be a bonfire). What a beautiful way to let us know (so early on) that Jack's got the blues thinking about Ennis, so far away...

   Btw, that deep blue of the night is a real and really common phenomenon in the mountains.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2010, 08:49:56 AM by fofol »
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Offline morrobay

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Re: Symbolism & Imagery, II
« Reply #39 on: April 12, 2010, 11:29:35 AM »
Well you found exactly the site: the blue/gray dragon on the lower right is a more completely realized being, with an arm that stretches along the bottom of the frame,  The 'pearl of wisdom' is the small, roundish form just beyond its 'claws.'  This one even bears the little cloud tendrils as they are usually shown in oriental art.  
   The way the 'golden' dragon is shown, mostly head, was in fact the first clue to me to Ennis's personality - the Earl incident was so severe that it drove Ennis to live his life mostly in his head, which is a common process following exactly the way severely traumatized people behave 'after.'
    The first year of the UBbF, I was not on line, able only to read.  It was incredibly frustrating, and terribly enlightening, and I accepted things proposed by other members quite literally: Mr. Gyllenhall and others familiar with Mr. Lee's work stated that he was one of the most intensely detailed directors they'd ever come across, that he was aware of every detail in every frame.  I took that ball and ran with it: if everything means something, everything is purposeful, so I started looking for things that were not immediately attention-getting.  There are other things in the film which are there, plain as day when you know where to look, but in order for them to be significant, the viewer has to be ready to accept that Mr. Lee is in fact a filmmaker who gets incredible mileage out of his pictures as well as the dialogue, settings and the skills of his collaborators.  There are other images which have gotten short shrift from some of the people I admire most in this Forum.  I don't understand why some people don't seem to get it that films are made of pictures, and some of these pictures really offer clues the written word cannot - try imagining the outcry if the 'clouds as dragons' scene was actually written into the script!  I suspect that there would the blood spouting out of 'purist' noses...  
     It could be that the film is just so perfectly made that an explanation can be found where none was intended, and that argument might be acceptable if we hadn't be assured so strongly that the director is a fanatically detailed creator. More to come if you find this interesting enough...



I think this is all facinating, look forward to more enlightening to come...
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Offline seagull

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Re: Symbolism & Imagery, II
« Reply #40 on: April 13, 2010, 09:13:50 PM »
While I haven't read every post here, I am certain that the "Crying Eye In The Sky" watching Ennis in the alley must have been mentioned before.
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Offline Dal

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Re: Symbolism & Imagery, II
« Reply #41 on: April 14, 2010, 12:03:19 AM »
~ What a beautiful way to let us know (so early on) that Jack's got the blues thinking about Ennis, so far away...~
Jack, in his dark camp, saw Ennis as night fire, a red spark on the huge black mass of mountain..   Simple and beautiful, like the 4 shots in the movie.
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Offline fofol

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Re: Symbolism & Imagery, II
« Reply #42 on: April 14, 2010, 07:03:18 AM »
Jack, in his dark camp, saw Ennis as night fire, a red spark on the huge black mass of mountain..   Simple and beautiful, like the 4 shots in the movie.

   
   The relationhip between author's and director's versions of the story are so totally congruent, intellectually and emotionally, that sometimes beauty seems to be as much background as homophobia.
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Offline fofol

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Re: Symbolism & Imagery, II
« Reply #43 on: April 14, 2010, 07:07:26 AM »
While I haven't read every post here, I am certain that the "Crying Eye In The Sky" watching Ennis in the alley must have been mentioned before.

  Yes.  When I first proposed this artifact in the film, three or four years ago, there was much weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth: the Lee-istas went into immediate denial, even when another poster, Ministering Angel, posted several frames of the tear falling.  It was simply so unacceptable that Ang Lee would insert anything so directly emotional in his film that it couldn't be.  One of my heroes in this Forum actually went so far as to say that perhaps there was something in the 'swirling mist' of the clouds, but he wan't able to distinguish what it was...
« Last Edit: April 15, 2010, 08:20:57 AM by fofol »
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Offline Sara B

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Re: Symbolism & Imagery, II
« Reply #44 on: April 14, 2010, 07:30:09 AM »
I was extremely struck by the cloud formations when I first saw the film, particularly in the opening scenes, though I wasn't looking for anything beyond how strikingly beautiful they were, with the lines converging to the vanishing point, and the contrast with the deep blue sky.  Have there been earlier cloud discussions here?  Sounds as if there must have been.


“When we grow older still we’ll speak about those two young men as if they were two strangers..... And we’ll want to call it envy, because to call it regret would break our hearts.”

Call Me by Your Name, André Aciman.