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Author Topic: Symbolism & Imagery, II  (Read 58887 times)

Offline fofol

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Re: Symbolism & Imagery, II
« Reply #45 on: April 14, 2010, 08:34:25 AM »
I was extremely struck by the cloud formations when I first saw the film, particularly in the opening scenes, though I wasn't looking for anything beyond how strikingly beautiful they were, with the lines converging to the vanishing point, and the contrast with the deep blue sky.  Have there been earlier cloud discussions here?  Sounds as if there must have been.



   Yes, but I don't know if the archived threads are indexed.
   The clouds over Ennis in the film's opening sequences show two clouds apparently merging, when you read them in the traditional western way, from right to left.  A probable references to our boys 'merging' at this time...
« Last Edit: April 14, 2010, 10:06:01 AM by fofol »
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Offline royandronnie

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Re: Symbolism & Imagery, II
« Reply #46 on: April 14, 2010, 08:04:25 PM »
While I haven't read every post here, I am certain that the "Crying Eye In The Sky" watching Ennis in the alley must have been mentioned before.

Yes. That one at least is blisteringly obvious once it's been pointed out.

I wonder how those things got in there? It's been said many times that this was a low-budget shoot. I've always inclined to the notion that whoever did the SFX was gay and put the eye in out of love for the project… I mean, it's not something you're going to notice the first dozen times you see it.
"…in the family homestead of his dead lover, the shirts they wore while cowboying together long before: shabby denim and weary cotton, wrapped in each other's arms." Like this. Always.

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Offline BeBeYourLove

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Re: Symbolism & Imagery, II
« Reply #47 on: April 17, 2010, 10:33:46 AM »
"Jack Twist: No more beans." I've always thought this summed Jack up in a way. Jack is sick of beans; the mundane boredom and frustration of living a life that is confined to work with no frivolity or allowance to live the life you want. Jack's not accepting this: he's making a statement that he doesn't want to be told wha tto do and how to live and this is reflected in his personality, as he is far more 'get-up-and-go' and the risk taker out of the two. (Bull riding?)

Uh oh, once I start finding the symbolism in beans I know I'm in deep.  :o

Offline Sara B

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Re: Symbolism & Imagery, II
« Reply #48 on: April 17, 2010, 10:35:33 AM »
Uh oh indeed!  Things can only go downhill from now on. ;)
“When we grow older still we’ll speak about those two young men as if they were two strangers..... And we’ll want to call it envy, because to call it regret would break our hearts.”

Call Me by Your Name, André Aciman.

BayCityJohn

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Re: Symbolism & Imagery, II
« Reply #49 on: April 21, 2010, 02:21:26 PM »


Uh oh, once I start finding the symbolism in beans I know I'm in deep.  :o


Offline fofol

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Re: Symbolism & Imagery, II
« Reply #50 on: April 23, 2010, 07:15:08 AM »
he felt he could paw the white out of the moon

Offline garyd

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Re: Symbolism & Imagery, II
« Reply #51 on: April 23, 2010, 10:05:17 AM »
For Paul:

The Tara Center, a prominent New Age organization, revealed in a veiled manner that the visualization of a triangle of white light is integral to forming a channel for the unleashing of devils (evil spirits) to bring in the One World Religion:

Triangles work is easy. Mentally link up with the two other members; visualize a TRIANGLE OF WHITE LIGHT circulating above your heads; then say The Great Invocation aloud (whenever possible). See your TRIANGLE linked with all the other triangles, transmission and meditation groups on the planet. See the WHITE LIGHT circulating among this network of focal points and pouring out ot envelop the world, thus helping to form a channel for the downpouring of Light and Love into the body of humanity. (10)

Lucifer (who is now Satan) is represented by a white light:

"The white light is an important symbol in the New Age. A former witch wrote: 'In the upper three levels of witchcraft, LUCIFER IS REPRESENTED BY A WHITE LIGHT.' " Dr. Cathy Burns, Masonic and Occult Symbols Illustrated, page 268 (11)

Satan and his devils manifest as white light:

Bill Wilson, prior to his founding of Alcoholics Anonymous (which is a New Age front), was converted to what he claimed was the "God of the Preachers" by means of the appearance of a great white light:

"Suddenly the room lit up with a great white light. I was caught up into an ecstasy . . . . It seemed to me, in the mind's eye, that I was on a mountain and that a wind not of air but of spirit was blowing. And then it burst upon me that I was a free man ...."


Offline Paul029

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Re: Symbolism & Imagery, II
« Reply #52 on: April 25, 2010, 05:16:02 AM »



 :D
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Offline Janie-G

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Re: Symbolism & Imagery, II
« Reply #53 on: April 25, 2010, 05:44:19 AM »
   So sorry I haven't answered sooner, but I kind of gave up on this...  At any rate: when I first started reading and posting, one of the then-regulars mentioned that she was surprised that there wasn't any oriental imagery in the picture, especially considering that Mr. Lee is Taiwanese.  I was amazed that no one seemed to have seen the dragons - they're in the clouds, but really there...
   
   If you look at the clouds just before (or after) Jack hauls the food up inside that critter-proofer tripod, you will see two distinct cloud groupings, one blue or blue-gray (which is looking in a direction which would include the other dragon), and the other that orange-gold color that clouds get around sunset (this dragon is looking from the left to the right of the screen, not in thedirection of the blue one).  There is a traditional theme in most oriental cultures of dragons being angelic, quite unlike the demonic dragons of western culture.  Oriental dragons live in water: rivers, lakes or the sea.  They have long, streaming feelers on their noses to help guide themselves in murky waters, and are regarded as very benevolent, more like angels.  If you see the clouds as dragons, you will notice that the blue-gray one is nearest a much smaller, roundish cloud formation: this represents the pearl of wisdom, wisdom being the primary treasure guarded by these dragons.  If you can get this far into the cloud symbology, and you notice that the 'pearl of wisdom' cloud is mostly blue, with barely a touch of gold, and you might wonder if the 'Jack' dragon is directing the pearl of wisdom to the 'Ennis' dragon.  If you do a google search on oriental dragons and you may come across an article which will blow you away with descriptions of blue and orange dragons - there are many facets of their personalities that match Jack and Ennis.  Good luck with this, and if I can be of any more assistance, I will try.  I will look around to see if I can find more information from you, and I apologize if this is not pluperfect accurate - I haven't seen this part of the film in over a year.

Interesting. Thanks.
From a western perspective the cloud dragons could be an indication of sailing into uncharted waters. On the ancient ocean charts anywhere unexplored or perilously near the edge of things was marked "Here be dragons". I'd say that both boys were about to enter a zone of exploration and potential danger. But of course they may also discover territory richer than their wildest dreams.  ;)
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Offline Sara B

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Re: Symbolism & Imagery, II
« Reply #54 on: April 25, 2010, 05:47:32 AM »
So you do still look like your avatar, Paul :D.  I did wonder....
“When we grow older still we’ll speak about those two young men as if they were two strangers..... And we’ll want to call it envy, because to call it regret would break our hearts.”

Call Me by Your Name, André Aciman.

Offline garyd

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Re: Symbolism & Imagery, II
« Reply #55 on: April 25, 2010, 12:58:36 PM »


 :D

Bwaaa! ;D ;D ;D ;D
This is delightful,Paul.
Thanks for the laugh.
I was hoping,and pretty sure, you would see the humor.
Til later,
G

Offline foreverinawe

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Re: Symbolism & Imagery, II
« Reply #56 on: June 01, 2010, 02:07:13 PM »
Friends,

Is there a single English word that means "there is something I would like to know but I am too embarrassed to ask, because asking would reveal a shameful void in my knowledge?"

Other than dumb-ass?

I dunno, maybe that's good enough.

People have been quoting Annie Proulx ever since they encountered Brokeback Mountain. Phrases, sentences... even whole paragraphs, such as the Dozy Embrace...  take on meanings so vital, so deep, so personal, it is a phenomenon. Whose heart doesn't swell with the promise of her two simple words, "You bet"...

But another one of her phrases pierced my heart. I sense it has a literary significance that I simply don't know, maybe Biblical, maybe historical, maybe cinematic. I just don't know, but I would love to know. It is

The huge sadness of the northern plains rolled down on him.

She paints the plains as anthropomorphic, of course, but Annie's not flaky; she has good reasons in mind, I'm sure. Still I wonder, why might those metaphoric plains be sad?

Maybe because...

they witnessed the monstrous suppression of the Lakota
they witnessed Custer's monstrous ego and its destruction of his cavalry
they witnessed Wounded Knee
they witnessed the inundation of railroads and immigrants
they witnessed the annihilation of the buffalo
they witnessed the droughts, locusts and depression that befell
    the early settlers, helpless before nature's forces and men's greed
they witnessed the rape of the land for coal, oil, gas
Are those plains sensitive to human grief, even individual grief?

Maybe Annie has some grander concept in mind; maybe she thinks those things are merely trivial episodes played out on a sedimentary landscape formed by the upwelling of the Rocky Mountains and the last glaciers.

So I ask for your opinion: Why does Annie feel the northern plains are hugely sad?

   ~~~fia
And why are we shown this trivial detail? Because that truck carries the most important cargo of our puny lives:  love and hope.

Offline garyd

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Re: Symbolism & Imagery, II
« Reply #57 on: June 01, 2010, 02:41:42 PM »

The huge sadness of the northern plains rolled down on him.


So I ask for your opinion: Why does Annie feel the northern plains are hugely sad?

   ~~~fia


The mountain may represent escape and if so, then the flatlands, the plain, represents imprisonment, status quo, grief, sadness.
The geography is overwhelming,it goes on forever, it never changes.  But with Jack, there is escape from oppression, from sadness, from the suffocating status quo.
With Jack things appear possible, nothing seems wrong.
But this can only occur on the mountain or way the hell out in the middle of nowhere.

If so then perhaps this:
If the high peak of Brokeback Mountain, thrusting into the sky, evokes the yearning to rise above and escape one’s life, then the flatland of Wyoming represents all that is dull and desperate. Ennis and Jack are both raised on the plain, but while Jack takes off for Texas to live with his wealthy bride, Ennis is trapped by economic circumstance and responsibility. Proulx uses the noun plain just four times. First, the narrator describes how, from the extraordinary position of being atop the mountain, the plain is where “ordinary affairs” occur. The last three “plains” are used in conjunction with Jack’s death, an event that renders Ennis “ordinary” once more. When Lureen confirms Jack’s death, Ennis feels the “huge sadness of the northern plains” rolling over him. Later, driving to the Twist home, he notes the abandoned ranches scattered over the plain. Finally, leaving Lightning Flat, he notes the cemetery where Jack will be buried, calling it “the grieving plain.”
By the end of the story, Ennis’s pared down existence seems inseparable from the desolate Wyoming flatland, a locus of grief or of the status quo, which in this story is equated with grief. In the last line, another symbolic association becomes clear. The narrator describes the “open space” between what Ennis knows and believes about Jack’s death, a reference to both the expansive, endless plains and the open-ended pain that will stay with Ennis forever.


Offline Sandy

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Re: Symbolism & Imagery, II
« Reply #58 on: June 01, 2010, 02:41:58 PM »
Hi,

One possible interpretation is that this could be an example of the "pathetic fallacy," the notion that nonhuman things have emotions. It was big during the Romantic Era, Schubert sets to music lyrics about a Miller confiding his deep thoughts to a brook.

In many instances, this device is used as a mirror of a humans' inner feelings, with the idea that human feelings are so overwhelming that the non-human environment around reflects them. One a psychological level, it could be that the human projects those intense feelings onto the landscape.

So, in the sentence you cite, it could be an oblique way of saying that 'he' (='him') has such intense, all-consumming sadness that is directly reflected in the hills around him.

If so, it would be a link to the way in which a homophobic environment has influenced him, in the other direction.

Offline fofol

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Re: Symbolism & Imagery, II
« Reply #59 on: June 07, 2010, 01:05:08 PM »
  If you have ever driven through the northern plains, one of the first things you notice is how extremely large emptiness is.  For me, this was a source of of thoughts about the insignificance of human beings - not too far from issues of personal insignificance in the greatness of the landscape.  Not a soul-stirring, joyfully inspiring experience...
he felt he could paw the white out of the moon