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Author Topic: Symbolism & Imagery, II  (Read 67000 times)

Offline fofol

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Re: Symbolism & Imagery, II
« Reply #90 on: September 19, 2011, 08:10:47 AM »
Wait....I can't tell if your joking or not?

Actually, I was serious: in the past when talking about Annie Proulx's virtues as a writer, I have referred to her as more of a door or bridge than window, because she is best enjoyed when the reader goes into the world she creates rather than merely accept her stories as received information, IOW realizing her characters as living forces rather than looking at their lives through an author's window.  Showing's better than telling; knowing's better than showing, and Ms. Proulx is in the business of letting us in on it, whatever it may be...  Her characters are sketched with such occasional but fine detail we identify with them in a way we couldn't if she told us more about character rather than let us find out for ourselves...  I hope that's clear, but I meant a compliment anyway.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2011, 01:56:29 PM by fofol »
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Offline BuzzAndDelete

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Re: Symbolism & Imagery, II
« Reply #91 on: September 22, 2011, 03:39:47 PM »
I so totally agree!!  Thanx 



Actually, I was serious: in the past when talking about Annie Proulx's virtues as a writer, I have referred to her as more of a door or bridge than window, because she is best enjoyed when the reader goes into the world she creates rather than merely accept her stories as received information, IOW realizing her characters as living forces rather than looking at their lives through an author's window.  Showing's better than telling; knowing's better than showing, and Ms. Proulx is in the business of letting us in on it, whatever it may be...  Her characters are sketched with such occasional but fine detail we identify with them in a way we couldn't if she told us more about character rather than let us find out for ourselves...  I hope that's clear, but I meant a compliment anyway.

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Re: Symbolism & Imagery, II
« Reply #92 on: September 23, 2011, 06:22:39 PM »
Here are the other instances of windows I can think of.  Some fit with this symbolism, and some don't.

1.  Aguirre through the trailer window.  Doesn't fit, unless our boys wants something from Aguirre they can't have.  Having that be a job the following summer seems like a stretch.

2.  Ennis sees Jack arrive for the reunion.  Part of Ennis wants a life with Jack, and part doesn't.

3.  Alma sees Ennis and Jack depart.  She wants Ennis back and wants Jack to go away.  Jack goes away too late to do Alma any good.

4.  Jack driving a tractor outside the office.  Maybe Lureen wants a life with Jack.

5.  Cassie and Carl outside the diner.  I don't think Ennis sees them through the window.  Ennis can't have a life with Cassie.  I predict it's not symbolic of Ennis desire to be with Carl.

6.  Mrs. Twist watching Ennis arrive.  Might symbolize wanting Jack back, or wanting Jack and Ennis to move to the ranch.



Offline fofol

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Re: Symbolism & Imagery, II
« Reply #93 on: September 26, 2011, 11:41:44 AM »
Here are the other instances of windows I can think of.  Some fit with this symbolism, and some don't.

1.  Aguirre through the trailer window.  Doesn't fit, unless our boys wants something from Aguirre they can't have.  Having that be a job the following summer seems like a stretch.

2.  Ennis sees Jack arrive for the reunion.  Part of Ennis wants a life with Jack, and part doesn't.

3.  Alma sees Ennis and Jack depart.  She wants Ennis back and wants Jack to go away.  Jack goes away too late to do Alma any good.

4.  Jack driving a tractor outside the office.  Maybe Lureen wants a life with Jack.

5.  Cassie and Carl outside the diner.  I don't think Ennis sees them through the window.  Ennis can't have a life with Cassie.  I predict it's not symbolic of Ennis desire to be with Carl.

6.  Mrs. Twist watching Ennis arrive.  Might symbolize wanting Jack back, or wanting Jack and Ennis to move to the ranch.


Congratulations on a thousand posts Marc!

Consider this though:  could it be that all of Ennis wants all of Jack all of the time, but just can't figure a way for that to happen that would keep them not just as a couple, but as an alive couple?  I think it's possible that Mrs. Twist wants to see the man she knew her son loved, and was loved by.

The other aspect of a window is that you can see what's going on, but you are separated from it.

Keep up the good work, happy posting!
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Offline Paul029

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Re: Symbolism & Imagery, II
« Reply #94 on: October 10, 2011, 09:46:28 AM »
was gonna post this in the topic of the week re the windows but I was to late so I will post here instead and sorry if its already been covered/mentioned

could the windows symbolise wanting something you can't have? literally something in the way of what you want (a door/window)

the two window examples of this i can think of right now

Alma looking out at Jack and Ennis's kiss, she loves ennis, hes the father of her children, her first love and yet she can see him kissing his 'friend' Jack Twist, shes wants ennis to love her the way she loves him but at that moment she knows that she has never had that and will never have it

Ennis looking out of Jacks old bedroom window near the end of the film, in a refelctive mood knowning that he has lost the love of his life forever and he will never see him again and they will now never have that 'real sweet life' together, Jacks gone at he's *in his head) got nothing (cos of course in reality he has his kids Junior and Jenny)

Hi Marz,
I was going to respond earlier, but...
As far as your two examples go, in the film Alma and Ennis are looking through a window to something outside, yes. But the shots differ. We see Alma from the outside looking out, but we're inside with Ennis when he looks out the bedroom window, as he is when he's waiting for Jack at the reunion, and also in the final shot of the film, when he's in the trailer, except this time he doesn't look at the window, he closes the cupboard door and moves left, and goes offscreen.

It could be said that, in Alma's case, she's inside because she's trapped, as is Ennis in the final shot—neither of them can have what they "want," because the glass represents a symbolic barrier (and Ennis doesn't even bother to look out, anyway).
But when Ennis is waiting for Jack we don't see him through the glass; we're in the room with him, as we were in Jack's bedroom, but we're not looking outside with him, we're just watching Ennis.
If he "wants" Jack shouldn't we see him from behind, looking out, as Jack drives up?

Giving windows in a particular film a symbolic meaning could tend to have repercussions as far as other films are concerned. It depends a lot upon who is looking, why they're looking, and from what viewpoint we see them looking—are we "inside" with them or do we see them looking out from outside (as if they're looking at us, the film audience)? If consistency is important then every film with someone looking out of a window, not just one, should have a symbolic meaning. (Every house in a film usually has windows.)

Of course, a director decides which way such a scene should be shot, whether from inside or from outside a room, and often it has nothing to do with symbolism. It all depends. If you’ve seen Hitchcock’s Rear Window, you’ll know what I mean. Apart from a short section at the end the main character is always shown inside looking out because he’s confined to a wheelchair; that’s not symbolism, we see (mostly) only what he sees, and from his point of view.

Just some thoughts.  :)

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Offline jb59715

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Re: Symbolism & Imagery, II
« Reply #95 on: March 19, 2012, 10:12:33 PM »
One of the interesting parts of the movie I noticed was the interior design in all the houses that were featured--or lack there of.  In every house there is some reference to the mountains and the 'free spirit' that Jack and Ennis experienced there through paintings depicting landscapes or mountains, which in my mind is a direct reference to Brokeback.  While the homes Ennis lived in were sparsely decorated, in each camera shot you see a picture on the wall of some outdoor reference.  The same for Jack.  This is one of my favorite subtleties in the film, at least how I interpret it!

Offline Sandy

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Re: Symbolism & Imagery, II
« Reply #96 on: March 20, 2012, 08:10:35 AM »
Nice observation jb. This sort of "framing" is used thematically as in Ennis' trailer at the end of the movie when the outside world is framed through a window in the trailer. The nested shirts Ennis keeps have replaced the decoration.

Welcome to our shared obsession. See you on the threads.

Offline morrobay

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Re: Symbolism & Imagery, II
« Reply #97 on: August 02, 2012, 04:40:13 PM »
This might be in the wrong place, if so let me know so I can move it....

A quote from a discussion in 2006, from CSI (no longer posting here):

That grieving plain image always bothered me; I couldn't quite grab it convincingly.


And a reply from Nikki, who's still around:

Yeah, CSI, agree about the grieving plain -- beautiful imagery, but it bothered me too.

I guess my question to Nikki, if you happen by, is do you still feel the same?  And what about "the grieving plain" bothered you?  

I loved it, and instantly felt it was right to be described that way...it puts in my mind a barren, windswept place with no place of comfort, no place to call home...exactly what Ennis had without Jack in his life - nothing.  
« Last Edit: August 02, 2012, 05:03:27 PM by morrobay »
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Offline malachite45

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Re: Symbolism & Imagery, II
« Reply #98 on: August 03, 2012, 03:18:17 AM »
The word "plain" is used again to evoke grief in "the huge sadness of the northern plains rolled down on him". I've always assumed that, as AP often uses the landscape as an extension of the character's emotions, the use of the word "plain" is a deliberate foil to the joy and euphoria the boys experienced in the mountains and only there. The plain is the constricted real world they're trapped in. The "grieving plain" works for me on that basis.

Offline rie

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Re: Symbolism & Imagery, II
« Reply #99 on: August 07, 2012, 10:00:33 PM »
Hello.This is my first post.
I live in Japan and not good at English, so, please forgive me if my English is hard to understand or I'm asking a stupid question.
I saw BBM two months ago at the first time on TV.  I had never heard even the title until the day.
And I was obsessed immediately !
No one around me knows about this movie, so when I found here I was very very happy to know there are many people who love this movie !
I've been reading some threads from the first page for two months, and haven't finished yet.  I'm so happy to read all of these posts. Thank you so much for maintaining this site !
Now, I'd like to read the thread of Symbolism & Imagery, I(First)... I can't find it anywhere in this site.  How can I read the thread ?
Maybe it is obvious, and I can't find because of my bad English...please help me.

Offline Sara B

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Re: Symbolism & Imagery, II
« Reply #100 on: August 08, 2012, 01:11:48 AM »
Welcome, rie, and I hope you will find what you need for your Brokeback obsession - we all understand it so well! :)

Your English is absolutely fine.

If you go to Elements and Themes you will see Child Boards - Archive of Elements and Themes.  You'll find the thread there.

Good luck and keep posting :) :) :)

Offline morrobay

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Re: Symbolism & Imagery, II
« Reply #101 on: August 08, 2012, 11:14:32 AM »
Hello.This is my first post.
I live in Japan and not good at English, so, please forgive me if my English is hard to understand or I'm asking a stupid question.
I saw BBM two months ago at the first time on TV.  I had never heard even the title until the day.
And I was obsessed immediately !
No one around me knows about this movie, so when I found here I was very very happy to know there are many people who love this movie !
I've been reading some threads from the first page for two months, and haven't finished yet.  I'm so happy to read all of these posts. Thank you so much for maintaining this site !
Now, I'd like to read the thread of Symbolism & Imagery, I(First)... I can't find it anywhere in this site.  How can I read the thread ?
Maybe it is obvious, and I can't find because of my bad English...please help me.

Hi rie,
Very glad you saw the movie and are now as obsessed as we are.

this link should take you to Symbolism & Imagery I, which began on January 12, 2006.  I've been reading it a lot lately, it's very interesting.

http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=9675.0
Bye, Felicia

"What a maroon."  Bugs Bunny

"I try to be good...I only manage it in streaks."

Offline rie

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Re: Symbolism & Imagery, II
« Reply #102 on: August 08, 2012, 07:45:06 PM »
Cally, morrobay, Thank you very much !!
Now I can read this thread from the first page ! I'm very happy and a little fear that I could read all of them (with a dictionary) until I die.  There are 510 pages there !?
Great......
I've read about 300 pages in some threads (almost FNIT and SNIT... ), and still haven't had the answer to many questions !
OK, now I'll start reading Symbolism & Imagery I, until I find an answer "Why is Jack washing their shirts in the river ??"
Thank you !!

Offline janjo

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Re: Symbolism & Imagery, II
« Reply #103 on: August 09, 2012, 05:59:04 AM »
Hello rie, all the way from Japan. Wonderful to have you here, and your English is fine.
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Offline rie

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Re: Symbolism & Imagery, II
« Reply #104 on: August 09, 2012, 07:40:29 PM »
Thank you janjo ! I bought an electric dictionary and every day learning some new words which we never learn at school !