The Ultimate Brokeback Forum

Author Topic: Were they gay? (Jack & Ennis) - Next chapter  (Read 41643 times)

Offline killersmom

  • AUNTIE
  • Administrator
  • Obsessed
  • ******
  • Posts: 81621
  • It's me.
Were they gay? (Jack & Ennis) - Next chapter
« on: May 17, 2012, 10:37:05 PM »
Repeating Dave's first post when he originally opened the thread in December 2005:

Feel free to discuss this in main discussion, but for those who want to delve deeper, or keep at it or make sure you are heard on this topic, go at it here.

I'll kick it off with my opinion. Gay? God yes.

Update, Jan 8, 2006:

Two things:

I have been asked to

1. expand the question to: were they gay, straight or bisexual?

2. define gay.

Both reasonable requests. I should have included the bi option to start. I added it to the poll--feel free to change your vote if you wanted that option before but it was missing.

Well, 300+ posts in is a bit late for a definition, and you're all free to define it any way you like, but what I meant by gay was: Is the guy primarily attracted to men, sexually (i.e., much more toward men than women).

I use it synonomously with homosexual, a word rarely used in ordinary conversation these days. I had assumed gay had more or less replaced it. I definitely wasn't referring to how masculine vs. effeminate they were, or how they self-identified. I'm interested in what we think they really were inside, not what they were or were not willing to admit out loud at any point in their lives.

I was kind of stunned to see how many definitions of gay are running around out there. That was an eye opener. I've learned a lot.

You're free to use my definition or reject it and discuss our boys in terms of another.

Since I'm here, though, a few more words on the definitions that have come up:

I was particlarly taken aback to hear that Kinsey defined sexuality in terms of behavior, instead of attraction. Very foolhardy. Like Freud, he hurtled the field infinintely forward, but the disadvantage of starting from almost zero is you're likely to get a hell of a lot wrong. Kinsey was a scientist and adamant about looking at sexuality scientifically, like other natural phenomena. If you just measured how much a person was doing something, you could rank them on a scale. How silly was that? Especially when dealing with a taboo: why on earth would he think most people would be acting the way they wanted to? If a closted homo who craves men men men gets married to a woman and never strays but never likes it, behavior would classify that guy as a 0, fully straight. Assinine.

Which is what this film is all about, right? People driven one way by their own instincts, pulled another by society. We know what society made Jack and Ennis do. It seems to me the question is: what were their real drives?
Nature has cunning ways of finding our weakest spot.
Call Me By Your Name

Offline andy/Claude

  • Obsessed
  • *****
  • Posts: 11000
Re: Were they gay? (Jack & Ennis) - Next chapter
« Reply #1 on: May 18, 2012, 02:19:48 AM »
Perhaps, in order for our two make-pretend guys to have the kinda life we all want them to have, most of us define them as gay, thereby removing as many obstacles as possible that would hinder their dream. God knows, they had enough of them.

Thanks for the catch-up Linda. No mean feat in this thread of a million pages and interpretations! :D
the shirts hanging on a nail shudder slightly in the draft.

Offline janjo

  • Obsessed
  • *****
  • Posts: 11113
Re: Were they gay? (Jack & Ennis) - Next chapter
« Reply #2 on: May 18, 2012, 05:45:37 AM »
I am still concerned about men who so enjoy anal sex with another man that they seek it out regularly, insisting that they are straight. It is indicative at the very least that a person who "does gay," "is gay", at least to a considerable extent, and their protests to the contrary are really not that believable.
Brokeback short stories at storybyjanjo.livejournal.com

"Are birds free from the chains of the skyway?"
Ballad in plain D: Bob Dylan

Offline Sara B

  • Obsessed
  • *****
  • Posts: 41465
Re: Were they gay? (Jack & Ennis) - Next chapter
« Reply #3 on: May 18, 2012, 05:54:36 AM »
Repeating Dave's first post when he originally opened the thread in December 2005:

...........


I'll kick it off with my opinion. Gay? God yes.

...........

This makes me smile - brief and to the point.
There were only the two of them on the mountain flying in the euphoric, bitter air, looking down on the hawk's back and the crawling lights of vehicles on the plain below, suspended above ordinary affairs....

Offline AZ.bbm

  • Way Back Machine
  • Obsessed
  • *****
  • Posts: 5763
Re: Were they gay? (Jack & Ennis) - Next chapter
« Reply #4 on: May 18, 2012, 06:22:44 AM »
Jess,

I am still concerned about men who so enjoy anal sex with another man that they seek it out regularly, insisting that they are straight. It is indicative at the very least that a person who "does gay," "is gay", at least to a considerable extent, and their protests to the contrary are really not that believable.

Jess,
Somehow, I manage to enjoy cupcakes without identifying with the baker or wanting to hang out with him...?


"'Democracy' is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch... 'Liberty' is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote.'' -Benjamin Franklin

Offline janjo

  • Obsessed
  • *****
  • Posts: 11113
Re: Were they gay? (Jack & Ennis) - Next chapter
« Reply #5 on: May 18, 2012, 06:25:36 AM »
I am not saying you are gay though, you are bi sexual and should be very proud of that fact.
People only deny being gay because they are ashamed of it, which they ought not to be.

Off to eat a cupcake!
Brokeback short stories at storybyjanjo.livejournal.com

"Are birds free from the chains of the skyway?"
Ballad in plain D: Bob Dylan

Offline AZ.bbm

  • Way Back Machine
  • Obsessed
  • *****
  • Posts: 5763
Re: Were they gay? (Jack & Ennis) - Next chapter
« Reply #6 on: May 18, 2012, 06:30:43 AM »
haha!   ;)

So, how do we distinguish between those who simply enjoy eating the occasional cupcake from those who want to   eat   marry the baker? 
« Last Edit: May 18, 2012, 12:50:28 PM by AZ.bbm »
"'Democracy' is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch... 'Liberty' is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote.'' -Benjamin Franklin

Offline Sara B

  • Obsessed
  • *****
  • Posts: 41465
Re: Were they gay? (Jack & Ennis) - Next chapter
« Reply #7 on: May 18, 2012, 07:12:59 AM »
Jess,

Jess,
Somehow, I manage to enjoy cupcakes without identifying with the baker or wanting to hang out with him...?




An entertaining but seems to me shaky analogy ;).
There were only the two of them on the mountain flying in the euphoric, bitter air, looking down on the hawk's back and the crawling lights of vehicles on the plain below, suspended above ordinary affairs....

Offline andy/Claude

  • Obsessed
  • *****
  • Posts: 11000
Re: Were they gay? (Jack & Ennis) - Next chapter
« Reply #8 on: May 18, 2012, 11:28:24 AM »
So, does this little short I just discovered on utube go any way towards settling anything, I wonder?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OHEQytE8dME&feature=relmfu
the shirts hanging on a nail shudder slightly in the draft.

Offline AZ.bbm

  • Way Back Machine
  • Obsessed
  • *****
  • Posts: 5763
Re: Were they gay? (Jack & Ennis) - Next chapter
« Reply #9 on: May 18, 2012, 02:41:11 PM »
@Sara,  :D  Okay, I have to agree, the cupcake analogy was a *little* shaky.    ;D


@Andy, <cue soap opera preview music>  "Did Thomas really turn gay last Christmas??" ... ..."Will Jorgen be turned, now that he's had gay sex with Thomas?  :-\;D
"'Democracy' is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch... 'Liberty' is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote.'' -Benjamin Franklin

Offline atruant

  • Obsessed
  • *****
  • Posts: 1281
  • Brokeback is STILL affecting me......
Re: Were they gay? (Jack & Ennis) - Next chapter
« Reply #10 on: May 18, 2012, 03:51:57 PM »
So, does this little short I just discovered on utube go any way towards settling anything, I wonder?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OHEQytE8dME&feature=relmfu

I wouldn't think so...
John and Chuck -
Ennis and Jack got us together.

Offline andy/Claude

  • Obsessed
  • *****
  • Posts: 11000
Re: Were they gay? (Jack & Ennis) - Next chapter
« Reply #11 on: May 18, 2012, 05:16:43 PM »
@Sara,  :D  Okay, I have to agree, the cupcake analogy was a *little* shaky.    ;D


@Andy, <cue soap opera preview music>  "Did Thomas really turn gay last Christmas??" ... ..."Will Jorgen be turned, now that he's had gay sex with Thomas?  :-\;D

I suspect the translation of the above highlighted is questionable. Any speakers around of whatever the language was?
the shirts hanging on a nail shudder slightly in the draft.

Offline janjo

  • Obsessed
  • *****
  • Posts: 11113
Re: Were they gay? (Jack & Ennis) - Next chapter
« Reply #12 on: May 19, 2012, 05:20:49 AM »
Oh those Scandinavians! :D :D :D :D
Brokeback short stories at storybyjanjo.livejournal.com

"Are birds free from the chains of the skyway?"
Ballad in plain D: Bob Dylan

Offline AZ.bbm

  • Way Back Machine
  • Obsessed
  • *****
  • Posts: 5763
Re: Were they gay? (Jack & Ennis) - Next chapter
« Reply #13 on: May 19, 2012, 10:34:41 AM »
 :D :D

Yes, being the whip that I am, it took mere minutes for me to realize that Thomas was being sarcastic when he told Jorgen that he "turned gay last Xmas".. lol!  :D ::)

Jorgen's response was cute, too, along the lines of,"So that's what you got for Xmas?"  ??? :D ;D
"'Democracy' is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch... 'Liberty' is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote.'' -Benjamin Franklin

Offline AZ.bbm

  • Way Back Machine
  • Obsessed
  • *****
  • Posts: 5763
Re: Were they gay? (Jack & Ennis) - Next chapter
« Reply #14 on: May 20, 2012, 06:04:18 AM »
So, had Thomas revealed his and Jorgen's tryst, instead of giving a toast, I assume that Jorgen would from then on be regarded as a homosexual, without question.   And, his past, current or future affairs, his fantasies regarding the opposite sex, and all manifestations of his heterosexuality would from that time forward be suspect, simply fodder for les accusateurs...

It's still amazing to me that a guy (or gal) who doesn't 'think the gay way', who doesn't want to BE gay, who doesn't want to be regarded by others as gay, somehow after a single same-sex encounter, can suddenly become magically gay...?!

Even if he has same-sex relations for the balance of his life, but his heart's not in it, does he really qualify? - I wonder how many light bulbs will he have to install before les accusateurs would 'qualify' him as an electrician?



"'Democracy' is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch... 'Liberty' is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote.'' -Benjamin Franklin