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Author Topic: Were they gay? (Jack & Ennis) - Next chapter  (Read 40464 times)

Offline Lyle (Mooska)

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Re: Were they gay? (Jack & Ennis) - Next chapter
« Reply #15 on: May 20, 2012, 12:49:51 PM »
who doesn't 'think the gay way', who doesn't want to BE gay

What does that mean, exactly?

What are your definitions of straight, gay, and bi?

When is someone gay?  

Offline royandronnie

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Re: Were they gay? (Jack & Ennis) - Next chapter
« Reply #16 on: May 20, 2012, 06:17:25 PM »
Drifting a little wide of topic here…
"…in the family homestead of his dead lover, the shirts they wore while cowboying together long before: shabby denim and weary cotton, wrapped in each other's arms." Like this. Always.

He either fears his fate too much
Or his deserts are small
Who dares not put it to the touch
To win or lose it all

Offline janjo

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Re: Were they gay? (Jack & Ennis) - Next chapter
« Reply #17 on: May 21, 2012, 05:28:57 AM »
I don't wish to argue Charlotte, but knowing what a person defines as gay, would be helpful in understanding their perceptions as far as the "gayness" of Jack and Ennis.
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Offline AZ.bbm

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Re: Were they gay? (Jack & Ennis) - Next chapter
« Reply #18 on: May 21, 2012, 06:34:40 AM »
(I think Charlotte was referring to my post re Jorgen and Thomas as drifting WOT)
"'Democracy' is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch... 'Liberty' is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote.'' -Benjamin Franklin

Offline AZ.bbm

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Re: Were they gay? (Jack & Ennis) - Next chapter
« Reply #19 on: May 21, 2012, 07:24:06 AM »
Dave C. feels that people are gay if they are predominantly attracted to members of the same sex.

However, I would consider you to be gay ONLY if you are not sexually or romantically attracted to members of the opposite sex, whatsoever...
But if you are attracted to the opposite sex in either of those two fashions,* I would consider you to be 'bi-sexual'.

This regardless of whatever behaviors you may currently be engaging in, or have previously engaged in, with other homo-sapiens, regardless of the extent or duration of the behavior.. [See Reply #1 re Dave Cullen on Kinsey]




*ETA: despite being 'predominantly gay'


« Last Edit: May 21, 2012, 03:09:49 PM by AZ.bbm »
"'Democracy' is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch... 'Liberty' is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote.'' -Benjamin Franklin

Offline Sara B

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Re: Were they gay? (Jack & Ennis) - Next chapter
« Reply #20 on: May 22, 2012, 02:00:46 AM »
So many of our (sometimes heated :D) responses to this thread depend on our own individual boundaries of how we define homosexual, bisexual and heterosexual, about where we put the divisions on the spectrum of sexuality. I'm tempted to say, does it even matter? but that would somewhat undermine the discussion.  How passionate we feel about it may well relate to our own sexuality, though not necessarily. I certainly don't feel it's a pointless discussion - so much of interest has come out of it.
There were only the two of them on the mountain flying in the euphoric, bitter air, looking down on the hawk's back and the crawling lights of vehicles on the plain below, suspended above ordinary affairs....

Offline Paul029

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Re: Were they gay? (Jack & Ennis) - Next chapter
« Reply #21 on: May 23, 2012, 02:57:11 AM »
~ I would consider you to be gay ONLY if you are not sexually or romantically attracted to members of the opposite sex, whatsoever...

But if you are attracted to the opposite sex in either of those two fashions [despite being predominantly gay] I would consider you to be 'bi-sexual'.
Why did you say 'despite,' Stan?
I would have thought that a bisexual person was equally attracted to both sexes, with neither gender being predominant.

Your division of attraction into behavioural (i.e. sexual) and emotional (i.e. romantic) categories surely clouds the issue.
For instance, a homosexual person who has sex with people of his/her own sex but is romantically attracted to the opposite sex is still homosexual.
Isn't it one's sexual activity which determines whether one is homosexual, bisexual or heterosexual?

And where do celibates fit in the scheme of things?



...there was no real scent, only the memory of it, the imagined power of Brokeback Mountain...

Offline AZ.bbm

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Re: Were they gay? (Jack & Ennis) - Next chapter
« Reply #22 on: May 23, 2012, 06:01:27 AM »
So many of our (sometimes heated :D) responses to this thread depend on our own individual boundaries of how we define homosexual, bisexual and heterosexual, about where we put the divisions on the spectrum of sexuality. I'm tempted to say, does it even matter? but that would somewhat undermine the discussion.  How passionate we feel about it may well relate to our own sexuality, though not necessarily. I certainly don't feel it's a pointless discussion - so much of interest has come out of it.

-Me, too, but that tack is rather "nihilistic," don't you think?   ;)

Seriously, though, I think that by examining the sexuality of the BBM characters we are really examining our own sexualities, passions, hang-ups, etc. ("Know thyself"..?)
 
Reading back through the thread I'm simply amazed at the quality and thoughtfulness of the conent, here (overlooking the "drive-by" posters who offer little more than a statement of their position, without offering any substance to justify same, of course).


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Offline AZ.bbm

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Re: Were they gay? (Jack & Ennis) - Next chapter
« Reply #23 on: May 23, 2012, 06:38:56 AM »
Why did you say 'despite,' Stan?
-Poor choice of words?--"and, even though you might be 'predominantly gay'..." -- might have been more at it..?

Quote
I would have thought that a bisexual person was equally attracted to both sexes, with neither gender being predominant.
I used to say "equally" too , but later I realized that my own sexual preferences tended to 'dither' gently as time passed...

Quote
Your division of attraction into behavioural (i.e. sexual) and emotional (i.e. romantic) categories surely clouds the issue.
For instance, a homosexual person who has sex with people of his/her own sex but is romantically attracted to the opposite sex is still homosexual.
Isn't it one's sexual activity which determines whether one is homosexual, bisexual or heterosexual?
No, because a person can BE one thing yet DO another, e.g., be attracted to females, yet have gay sex with a man/men. -Happens all the time, I hear... Consider that Ennis del Mar is a quasi-heterosexual male who enjoyed doing sexual activity with his friend, Jack. This was Heath Ledger and Jake Gyllenhaal's approach to acting out two straight guys who happened to fall in love.


 Actually, Dave Cullen first highlighted the division between 'attraction' and 'behavior.' In post #1 he maintains that 'attraction' should be the primary determining factor of one's sexual preference, rather than one's 'behaviors' as promulgated by Kinsey, and I concur with him on that...


Quote
And where do celibates fit in the scheme of things?
AFAIK, the fact that one is celibate doesn't necessarily mean that one is without sexual predilections...?  Celibates would be classified by their 'attractions,' too, in this scheme of things, rather than their (absence of) behaviors...



« Last Edit: May 23, 2012, 03:09:23 PM by AZ.bbm »
"'Democracy' is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch... 'Liberty' is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote.'' -Benjamin Franklin

Offline janjo

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Re: Were they gay? (Jack & Ennis) - Next chapter
« Reply #24 on: May 23, 2012, 08:27:22 AM »
I feel in determining whether a person is gay or not, that social pressures have to be taken into account.
In a world where it really didn't matter if one was gay or not, would it be easier to be openly gay, and not to pretend to like women at all.
I feel that I am pretty heterosexual, but then there is no one pressurising me to be anything else.
Even in this day and age I have a relative who is gay and quite camp, but no one dares to tell his Grandama, in case she cuts him out of her will!
So there is still a feeling that one "ought" to be straight, and this goes on to colour what people say they are, or pretend they are.
I have always said that Brokeback Mountain was a story about facing up to the truth as much as one about being gay, therefore, I do think that in some cases subterfuge and lies can be a part of a gay persons persona.
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Offline andy/Claude

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Re: Were they gay? (Jack & Ennis) - Next chapter
« Reply #25 on: May 24, 2012, 02:10:20 AM »

Reading back through the thread I'm simply amazed at the quality and thoughtfulness of the conent, here (overlooking the "drive-by" posters who offer little more than a statement of their position, without offering any substance to justify same, of course).

<@@>

Maybe the 'drivers-by' don't have the verbal dexterity of others, Stan? Their stand is non the less valid, surely, and not to be dismissed. I bet there are many a political voter who would stand and be counted as belonging to one party or another but would not find it so easy to say why, though they know it in their gut/heart.
the shirts hanging on a nail shudder slightly in the draft.

Offline Paul029

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Re: Were they gay? (Jack & Ennis) - Next chapter
« Reply #26 on: May 24, 2012, 04:28:13 AM »
Apologies for my tardy reply to your post, Andy.  :">

Quote from: Andy
Quote from: Paul029
...He says that when the kid is fifteen, and has problems.
If he never wanted a child he could have used contraception, or even the withdrawal method.
I see the having of kids, and the public display of having kids all part of the cover up of the day, something that both J&E and countless others could/would have done.
Maybe so, and Proulx is entitled to suggest that this was the case, but my point was that Jack was eventually dissatisfied with the way his life had turned out.

I said on the first WTG thread that “he presumably loved a ‘cute little old Texas girl’ enough to marry her and start a family.”
What he says in the Motel Siesta (“Swear to God I didn’t know we was goin a get into this again—yeah, I did. Why I’m here. I fuckin knew it...”) indicates to me that sending his postcard was an ‘out of the blue’ thing, based on only the dubious possibility that Ennis would be interested in seeing him again, four years after their time on the mountain (after all, he took a big chance in sending it) but which was confirmed when he received Ennis’s “You bet” reply.
No doubt he breathed a deep sigh of relief that Ennis actually replied at all, and another one when the reply wasn't "Fuck off! I told you INNQ, you mongrel!" :D

It’s only after the reunion that his ‘world view,’ if you like, changes.
Prior to that he’s, as far as we know, content with his life of wife and young son.
Then, things change—and, twenty years later, he says he never wanted a child at all.

I doubt it was a sudden realisation, but one which was eventually prompted by two things:
• that he was tired of the way his relationship with Ennis had turned out; and
• the fact that his son, now fifteen, had problems.

Hence, “Fuck-all has worked out the way I wanted. Nothin never come to my hand the right way.”#

So, my suggestion, that he could have used contraception, or withdrawal, was rhetorical, and looking back from the vantage point of twenty years later, he voices his middle-aged discontent.



# He’s "forgetting," of course, that something did, actually, come to his hand "the right way," once upon a time.  ;D

Or—maybe that's really the main part of his complaint—perhaps he now sees that he'd have been better off if he hadn't initiated the sex?
Occasional trips "down South" could have sufficed.

...there was no real scent, only the memory of it, the imagined power of Brokeback Mountain...

Offline Paul029

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Re: Were they gay? (Jack & Ennis) - Next chapter
« Reply #27 on: May 24, 2012, 04:42:36 AM »
Reading back through the thread I'm simply amazed at the quality and thoughtfulness of the conent, here (overlooking the "drive-by" posters who offer little more than a statement of their position, without offering any substance to justify same, of course).

<@@>

Maybe the 'drivers-by' don't have the verbal dexterity of others, Stan? Their stand is non the less valid, surely, and not to be dismissed. I bet there are many a political voter who would stand and be counted as belonging to one party or another but would not find it so easy to say why, though they know it in their gut/heart.
I tend to agree with Stan on this, Andy, but only insofar as such 'fly-by' comments (interesting descriptor) can tend to stifle, rather than encourage, discussion—which is, after all, the point of the thread.

The poll is the place for such 'votes', I would have thought.

Otherwise it's really only heckling, and from the sidelines.  8)

...there was no real scent, only the memory of it, the imagined power of Brokeback Mountain...

Offline andy/Claude

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Re: Were they gay? (Jack & Ennis) - Next chapter
« Reply #28 on: May 24, 2012, 04:55:11 AM »
Just like any parliamentary building or debating arena in the world, I reckon, Paul. ;)
the shirts hanging on a nail shudder slightly in the draft.

Offline Paul029

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Re: Were they gay? (Jack & Ennis) - Next chapter
« Reply #29 on: May 24, 2012, 05:54:05 AM »
... like the Australian House of Representatives!   ;D ;D ;D ;D

Touché.
...there was no real scent, only the memory of it, the imagined power of Brokeback Mountain...