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Author Topic: News and Current Events - 2017 - 2022  (Read 753066 times)

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: News and Current Events - 2017
« Reply #1395 on: December 01, 2017, 12:50:29 PM »
This reminds me of the news stories from years ago, about fathers, teachers and family friends not being able to be affectionate with their children/students, lest it be mistaken for child sexual abuse.

Good point! Now that you mention it, it reminds me of that, too. 

Quote
Personally, as Chuck said, I know the people at work that I can be "friendly affectionate" with, meaning a hug or other innocuous touch, but it's certainly not a daily occurrence. 

I have no problem going days (or a lot longer) without feeling the need to touch any of my co-workers.  But when I come back to work after a mandatory 3 month separation (temp contract), I hug many people, because we're happy to see each other after a time away.  If I was introduced to a new person in the group, I would not expect or appreciate (or accept) a hug.

Does gender or company culture play any role in this? I've personally never seen anybody in my division at my job hug anybody. In my division the workers are mainly female, and I wouldn't be hugging them anyway. In the case of the few young (twenty-something) guys, for me it's "strictly hands off," one reason being that I don't know if they're "family," another being not want to be thought of as a creepy old queen, and finally because PDA's among anybody just don't seem to be in the culture.

Offline fritzkep

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Re: News and Current Events - 2017
« Reply #1396 on: December 01, 2017, 02:03:56 PM »
During my retirement party I hugged just about everybody, from the cleaning ladies to the soldiers, even my boss! Most for the first time. Some people seemed surprised, but it went OK.

Werd ich zum Augenblicke sagen, "Verweile doch! Du bist so schön..."

Offline CellarDweller115

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Re: News and Current Events - 2017
« Reply #1397 on: December 01, 2017, 05:45:43 PM »
As I was "finalizing" getting ready for work this morning, some sort of round-table discussion of the harassment issue was taking place on the Today show. I really do regret that I didn't have time to watch all of it, but just as I had to turn off the TV and leave for work, a young woman whom I did not know was saying something about now in the aftermath men no longer know how to treat woman in the orkplace or even elsewhere. Just as I had to leave she said something about men being afraid to hug even long-time women friends.

If what she said about long-term friends is correct, I think that's kind of sad.

Assuming the woman friend is OK with being hugged, of course. (And I don't mean that as a smart-alec remark; I really mean it.)


I find that woman's statement  rather odd.

Men confused with how to treat women in the workplace?   You treat them like you would treat a male colleague that you have a business relationship with.    If you wouldn't hug him, why assume to hug her?

As for close female friends, I see no reason to stop hugging them,  if you've hugged them in the past. 


Offline morrobay

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Re: News and Current Events - 2017
« Reply #1398 on: December 01, 2017, 05:52:35 PM »

I find that woman's statement  rather odd.

Men confused with how to treat women in the workplace?   You treat them like you would treat a male colleague that you have a business relationship with.    If you wouldn't hug him, why assume to hug her?

As for close female friends, I see no reason to stop hugging them,  if you've hugged them in the past.

You're exactly right, Chuck.  Maybe we're making it too difficult, when it's really easy. 
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Offline oilgun

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Re: News and Current Events - 2017
« Reply #1399 on: December 01, 2017, 07:03:57 PM »
You're exactly right, Chuck.  Maybe we're making it too difficult, when it's really easy.

No kidding!
"Yer fond of me lobster aint' ye? I seen it - yer fond of me lobster! Say it! Say it. Say it!" - The Lighthouse.

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: News and Current Events - 2017
« Reply #1400 on: December 01, 2017, 07:29:40 PM »
You're exactly right, Chuck.  Maybe we're making it too difficult, when it's really easy.

No kidding!

I disagree with you both. I don't think we are. This whole situation reminds me very much of the accusations of child molestation back in the 1980s and 1990s. All of a sudden people who would have thought nothing of hugging a child were afraid even to touch a child, especially if the child was not his or her own.

If Garrison Keillor lost his job because he touched a woman on the back--sorry, I disagree that this is really easy.

It's one thing to avoid touching someone. But what if you, say, happen to lean over a female coworker's shoulder to check something out on her computer monitor, and you happen to see her cleavage, and she knows you saw it, and she chooses to make an issue of it?

Offline Lyle (Mooska)

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Re: News and Current Events - 2017
« Reply #1401 on: December 02, 2017, 09:25:46 AM »

I guess none of you read that article I linked twice.

It's not easy, simply because it's "in the eye of the beholder."

--What actually defines sexual harassment?
--Is sexual harassment objective or subjective?
--What is meant by that? Is sexual harassment defined by observable facts or by how the parties involved perceive it?
If the latter is the case, then whose perception carries the greatest weight? The person who does it or the person who
endures it? If the former is the case, then what observable behaviors constitute harassment?

For example: Sen. Franken has stated he never thought he was harassing any women when he
had his picture taken with them at those events. Now women are saying he groped them. The
dictionary definition of grope is: "feel or fondle (someone) for sexual pleasure, especially against
their will. An act of fondling someone for sexual pleasure." Now read the questions posed above.
Not simple when you're dealing with perception.

Now look at the reaction that Angela Lansbury got when she recently said something about women
needing to take some responsibility for the situations they're in and intimated that dressing sexily
might lead to some of this. She was immediately attacked because of the notion that women should
be able to dress anyway they want and it doesn't mean they're giving permission to men to treat them
disrespectfully. Lansbury was pointing out that in the eye of the beholder, the fact remains that women
arouse men and some men take the arousals as permission of one degree or another. Lansbury's notions
were summarily dismissed or relegated to the "she's old and from another time" sentiment. Again, I don't
think it's simple when you're dealing with perception.

Sexual Harassment Is in the Eye of the Beholder
Why Bad Looks Good
We do not always "know it when we see it"
by Wendy L. Patrick, Ph.D. / Mar 15, 2017 / Psychology Today

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/why-bad-looks-good/201703/sexual-harassment-is-in-the-eye-the-beholder

Also:
Angela Lansbury: Women “must sometimes take blame” for harassment
http://www.radiotimes.com/news/tv/2017-11-28/angela-lansbury-women-must-sometimes-take-blame-for-harassment/

Angela Lansbury: Sexual Harassment Comments Were Taken Out of Context
https://www.usmagazine.com/celebrity-news/news/angela-lansbury-responds-to-backlash-over-sexual-harassment-remarks/

Lansbury: "I would like to add that I am troubled by how quickly and brutishly some have taken my comments out of context and attempted to blame my generation, my age, or my mindset, without having read the entirety of what I said.”

To quote Linda Ellerbee, "...and so it goes."


Offline CellarDweller115

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Re: News and Current Events - 2017
« Reply #1402 on: December 02, 2017, 09:35:26 AM »
I guess none of you read that article I linked twice.

It's not easy, simply because it's "in the eye of the beholder."

--What actually defines sexual harassment?
--Is sexual harassment objective or subjective?
--What is meant by that? Is sexual harassment defined by observable facts or by how the parties involved perceive it?
If the latter is the case, then whose perception carries the greatest weight? The person who does it or the person who
endures it? If the former is the case, then what observable behaviors constitute harassment?

For example: Sen. Franken has stated he never thought he was harassing any women when he
had his picture taken with them at those events. Now women are saying he groped them. The
dictionary definition of grope is: "feel or fondle (someone) for sexual pleasure, especially against
their will. An act of fondling someone for sexual pleasure." Now read the questions posed above.
Not simple when you're dealing with perception.

Now look at the reaction that Angela Lansbury got when she recently said something about women
needing to take some responsibility for the situations they're in and intimated that dressing sexily
might lead to some of this. She was immediately attacked because of the notion that women should
be able to dress anyway they want and it doesn't mean they're giving permission to men to treat them
disrespectfully. Lansbury was pointing out that in the eye of the beholder, the fact remains that women
arouse men and some men take the arousals as permission of one degree or another. Lansbury's notions
were summarily dismissed or relegated to the "she's old and from another time" sentiment. Again, I don't
think it's simple when you're dealing with perception.

Also:
Angela Lansbury: Women “must sometimes take blame” for harassment
http://www.radiotimes.com/news/tv/2017-11-28/angela-lansbury-women-must-sometimes-take-blame-for-harassment/

Angela Lansbury: Sexual Harassment Comments Were Taken Out of Context
https://www.usmagazine.com/celebrity-news/news/angela-lansbury-responds-to-backlash-over-sexual-harassment-remarks/

Lansbury: "I would like to add that I am troubled by how quickly and brutishly some have taken my comments out of context and attempted to blame my generation, my age, or my mindset, without having read the entirety of what I said.”

To quote Linda Ellerbee, "...and so it goes."


Sorry Lyle, I believe it is that easy.

Regarding Senator Franken,  maybe he wouldn't be in this mess now if he had kept his hands to himself.   These women were women he had no intimate relationship with, and had no right to touch without their permission.   Look at the picture where he's pretending to squeeze the sleeping woman's breasts.




He says he was being "funny".   Why didn't he use his fingers to put a pair of horns on her head?  Why didn't he pretend to be picking her nose?  Why not just pose next to her and make a face or pretend to be asleep?

Nope, he went right for the breasts.


As for Angela Lansbury, I agree with the criticism.   Just because a woman dresses in a way that others may view as sexy, doesn't mean she's given permission to anyone to touch her or make inappropriate comments to her.

Offline Lyle (Mooska)

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Re: News and Current Events - 2017
« Reply #1403 on: December 03, 2017, 11:55:56 AM »

Sorry Lyle, I believe it is that easy.


The psychologist who wrote the article posted on Psychology Today that I linked has a
different viewpoint based on her expertise in the field.


Regarding Senator Franken,  maybe he wouldn't be in this mess now if he had kept his hands to himself. These women were women he had no intimate relationship with, and had no right to touch without their permission. Look at the picture where he's pretending to squeeze the sleeping woman's breasts. He says he was being "funny".   Why didn't he use his fingers to put a pair of horns on her head?  Why didn't he pretend to be picking her nose?  Why not just pose next to her and make a face or pretend to be asleep?

Nope, he went right for the breasts.

Sen. Franken's case is a lot different than the other ones we've heard about. Besides the woman above, the other women all accused him of touching them when they were having photo opportunities. Being a person who likes to find humor in any situation, I have crossed a line on an occasion or two when I've said something I shouldn't have or an action I might have thought twice about, but in the moment you think it's going to make people laugh and be amusing. So, I am willing to give a professional comedian some leeway when they get in trouble for saying or doing something they might not have if they'd run it by a committee first.

Since I am gay and been around gay men a lot, I have also noticed over the years that straight women will often fool around with gay men to the point of joking about their breasts and to the point of gay men touching these women's breasts (without permission) and the women not batting an eye about it. It's not sexual to them, I guess, because it's gay men. I remember one time when a straight co-worker I was with remarked on this situation wondering if he pretended to be gay if he could do the same thing.

I have to say it's a bit uncomfortable to write about these things because one doesn't know how someone else will interpret what you've written or if you are actually getting a point across that you're trying to make. These days you never know what someone will take offense to, and there's opportunities galore to take offense at most anything if one wants to focus on those things.

All I know is that the past couple of months of men being accused of various charges often seems like a witch hunt, at times seems wholly shocking and inappropriate, seems like no big deal in some instances, seems like some women are presenting themselves as weak and fragile for what appears rather minor, seems like some women being very courageous and honorable about their experiences, "fifteen minutes of fame" in other cases. In other words, all over the map.

It's also somewhat disturbing to see that the people being accused are almost immediately being erased. In Kevin Spacey's case, literally being erased and replaced from the upcoming film All the Money in the World. I am a person who has enjoyed his professional work, but also found his inclination to remain closeted in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary, problematic. I have watched Charlie Rose's nightly program, depending on the guests, for over twenty years. I have thought Al Franken a fine Senator. I think Garrison Keillor is getting a raw deal. I think the accusation against George Takei is very suspect. I think it's also horrific that in cases like Bill O'Reilly and Roger Ailes, that they lose their jobs, but are given multi-millions of dollars when they leave.

It's easier to let go those you don't care for, like those two I just mentioned or Roy Moore and Trump, but infuriating that their supporters give those two a pass and actually think the women who've come forward are liars involved in plots to discredit them. That's just wrongheaded ignorance. No one seems to care about the allegations about George H.W. Bush, either, relegating his actions to seem like a grandfather being naughty.

As for Angela Lansbury, I agree with the criticism.   Just because a woman dresses in a way that others may view as sexy, doesn't mean she's given permission to anyone to touch her or make inappropriate comments to her.

When you write "that others may view as sexy" -- that's "in the eye of the beholder" territory again.  It's a correct concept, but are women who dress that way so naive in the way men behave around them? It also takes any responsibility away from a woman who dresses provocatively. It's not hard to see that men who are aroused by sexy images and video of women online, in magazines, strip clubs or Las Vegas shows or any other media, don't react the same way to women in every day settings. It also seems to me that men think women are sexy regardless of what they're wearing...a low cut gown or a flight suit and helmet. It also doesn't mean that there aren't women who do dress that way precisely to get attention, or whatever they're after, from men.

My friend told me the story of working on a film in another state where the woman he was working with (and someone he'd known in this type of work and liked) in the set decoration area, was using her feminine wiles, as a man would put it, to "get things done" with the local men who were assisting. One day something happened, which my friend never actually found out what it was, but it was very inappropriate. The woman immediately dealt with the situation and it was "handled".  The point is that some women do use this in ways that, in this case, at least one man took as an invitation to cross an inappropriate line.

I am not condoning inappropriate or bad behavior. I'm saying, like the title of that Nancy Meyer's movie, "It's Complicated."

Offline richchan

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Re: News and Current Events - 2017
« Reply #1404 on: December 04, 2017, 11:31:58 AM »
And Now The Pendulum Has swung Too Far The Other Way

From Manward Press article:

https://manwardpress.com/featured-post/matt-lauer-al-franken-war-on-men-shots-fired/

"We won’t defend the long (and growing) list of men who have lost their jobs, their wives and their reputations as a result of their lewd, disrespectful conduct.

We must be clear… that sort of behavior from anybody is unacceptable and wrong.

But the pendulum has swung. It’s gone too far. And now, men – all men – have become the enemy.

In a nation where everything from football to pizza has become politicized, it didn’t take long for the War on Men to reach the dank swamp that surrounds the campaign trail.

The War is real.

And it’s gone nuclear…

Dana Nessel is hoping to be Michigan’s attorney general. If she wins, she’ll become the state’s highest-ranking legal counsel. Often called the “top cop,” the position demands somebody with a clear, unbiased and rational head.

It is not supposed to be a partisan or – do we even need to say it? – biased role.

We hope the voters of Michigan consider that fact when they take to the polls, because Nessel has made it clear she’s anything but clear-headed and unbiased…

...“Who can you trust most not to show you their penis in a professional setting?” she said in a campaign ad last week. “That would be the candidate who doesn’t have one.”...

...Apparently Nessel thinks all men should be fired. We’re no good penis-peekers… every last one of us.

But she doesn’t stop there.

“Some people will tell you I can’t be the Democratic nominee for attorney general here in Michigan because ‘we can’t have an all-female ticket for statewide office in 2018.’ Pundits and insiders are asking ‘can we afford to have a female governor, a female attorney general and a female secretary of state?’” she says in her video released last week.

“Well, I read the news, and I bet you do too. And it has me wondering: Can we afford NOT to?”

Talk about painting with the broadest of broad brushes..."

This is no better than Trump championing the Alabama candidate for purely political reasons. What this country needs is some sense of moderation from BOTH the Left and Right!
I sang in my chains like the sea

Offline Lyle (Mooska)

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Re: News and Current Events - 2017
« Reply #1405 on: December 04, 2017, 12:51:05 PM »

I'd seen this ad last week because some of the nightly talk shows were using it for humorous purposes and
to me it did seem like a joke commercial you'd see on SNL or something. People do things to get votes, but
I don't know how you'd get votes from people who were not already going to vote for you, so I'm not sure
the logic behind an ad like this. Plus, it's very cynical and kind of crass. I want more civility in the discourse
and inspiration.  This doesn't have any loftiness about it, does it?

I've always been a firm believer that we need more women in political office. Despite their abominable vote on
the recent tax legislation bill, even Republican women like Susan Collins and Lisa Murkowski have sided with
logic more often than not and helped stop the ACA repeal twice and voted for the DADT repeal as two examples.

The passage of this recent tax bill is the most abominable thing I've seen done in...well...I don't know.
The R's have just lost all sense of accountability to "we the people", and yet a lot of those "people" are
brainwashed into voting for them.

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: News and Current Events - 2017
« Reply #1406 on: December 04, 2017, 08:31:25 PM »
It also takes any responsibility away from a woman who dresses provocatively.

I've been saying essentially the same thing for years, and when I say it, I usually get clipped for it. By women.

Just sayin'. That's been my experience.

Offline Lyle (Mooska)

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Re: News and Current Events - 2017
« Reply #1407 on: December 05, 2017, 11:32:55 AM »

I can totally see why a woman thinks she should be able to wear anything she wants to and not be subjected to harassment or worse from anyone else, but that fact men are wired to respond to the opposite sex more toward visual stimulus, whereas women respond more to touch, it just makes sense to me that this should be taken into account by women. This is supposedly why, if a man is interested in a woman he will usually sit opposite someone he's interested in getting acquainted with and a woman usually will opt to sit next to/beside the person. I am guessing this is why most women are not that interested in x-rated videos and that Playgirl's largest audience base was gay men.

Offline Lyle (Mooska)

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Re: News and Current Events - 2017
« Reply #1408 on: December 05, 2017, 11:48:51 AM »

I am tired of hearing people from Alabama on the news, when discussing next week's Senate election, saying things like,
"The people of Alabama aren't going to let people from other states tell us what to believe or what we should do."

My response to those people:

"You're absolutely right. If you Alabamans want to elect a disgrace to represent you in Congress and if you have
no respect for human decency or have a shred of dignity, by all means, go ahead and twist your moral compasses
to reject truth and follow your own misguided, wrongheaded and partisan views and suffer the consequences."

--Hope against hope, I fully expect that Roy Moore will be elected to the Senate next week. After being held at arm's
length for a week or two, the RNC, Trump and Republican Senators are now fully committed to supporting this atrocious
human being and welcoming him to their Washington swamp.

For the record, besides any of the accusations leveled against him by many persons, he was already a horrible and unfit choice
to be elected to any office.

I'm beginning to wonder if there is ANY sanity left in this country.

Offline Lyle (Mooska)

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Re: News and Current Events - 2017
« Reply #1409 on: December 06, 2017, 07:56:31 PM »

From The New Yorker:


Should Senator Al Franken resign following revelations of sexual harassment? Michelle Goldberg, writing in the Times, says yes, in order to preserve the momentum of “the current movement toward unprecedented accountability for sexual harassers.” Writing in the Washington Post, Kate Harding says no: as a legislator, Franken has done good things for women, and, as a repentant sexual harasser in politics, he could do even more. Both arguments clearly have merit, and both of the writers acknowledge that the opposing view is compelling. But maybe “Should Al Franken resign?” is the wrong question.

The question frames the conversation in terms of retribution, but it is not possible to hold to account every man who has ever behaved disrespectfully and disgustingly toward a woman. Nor even every senator, or every comedian. And, even if it were possible to punish every single one of them, what would be accomplished? Punishment, especially when it is delayed, is not a very effective deterrent.


“Should Al Franken Resign?” Is the Wrong Question
by Masha Gessen

https://www.newyorker.com/news/our-columnists/should-al-franken-resign-is-the-wrong-question