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Author Topic: Gay bashing  (Read 159197 times)

Offline fritzkep

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Re: Gay bashing
« Reply #75 on: December 10, 2006, 03:44:48 PM »
I read about this story in TDS and have bookmarked it so that I can read it soon. I have only started on a very few new stories since the BBQ, just finishing up the ones/series I started before then, but your story sounds so intriguing that I simply have to read it. (My partner's name is Earl, and Fritz is kinda close to Rich!  :D  )

I was also in the Army during the Vietnam era, but not having any real idea about my true nature back then, I didn't experience any particular antigay sentiments, except the usual unavoidable during Basic.

Werd ich zum Augenblicke sagen, "Verweile doch! Du bist so schön..."

Offline michaelflanagansf

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Re: Gay bashing
« Reply #76 on: December 10, 2006, 03:45:24 PM »
Doesn't surprise me, or that it escalated to include sexual assault. Possibly always did, they just talk more openly of this now.  Women are still so reluctant to talk about rape, can't even imagine what it'd be like for a man.

And again, they go to the trouble to go to a Gay Pride Event, get themselves a nice eyeful, make jokes to each other, build up a head of steam, get their courage up.

Pig-fuckers, pardon my French.

I live in a rural area without much of any kind of scene, though I do hear stuff from time to time out at the base.  Actually had an MP friend offer to drop off a soldier who solicited then beat up men in washrooms at my place for some "consciousness-raising" and I was tempted, I can tell you.  His victims were usually Asian men (ie, short) and married, scared to death of being outed to their families, didn't want to press charges, finally one did go to the cops.  His buddies knew about it, stood guard for him, till finally he pulled his routine with an undercover cop, so they got him.  After that his friends were peeing themselves to give him up and save their own asses.

There was a case a couple years back where a verbal altercation between a club patron and three guys who "just happened to be in the neighborhood" got physical in the parking lot and he got beat up pretty bad, though he got two of his attackers with a beer bottle bad enough they had to go to the hospital, and when they stitched em up, the cops over the state line recognized them (well-known to the law up there) from the description and extradited them.
At the trial, there defense was they're devout Christians and their faith was offended.  The jury guffawed, gave them pretty stiff sentences, plus they're all illegal immigrants so I think a deportation was part of the whole deal, for at least 2 of them.

Sorry to hear of your own experiences, and in what I think of as liberal states, though I guess that means nothing to these people.  You got a hankering for fish, you don't go to the desert I guess.

Thanks so much for the links!  I loved Lucian's 'Riding Fence' and can't wait to tackle this.

My experience with bashing goes from rural areas to mid-size and large cities.  I grew up in rural Michigan - about 60 miles northeast of Bay City.  The majority of incidents in Michigan took place in East Lansing.  Strange that it would be in a college town, but I would guess that comes from young men having anxiety about their sexuality at that point in their lives.  And the incidents in California happened in San Francisco.

About 4 years about I was back in East Lansing (my family is in Michigan - I go back to visit often) and a carload of boys drove by and yelled 'fa**ot' as me as they spun past.  This has gotten so old by this point that my immediate thought was 'Hot damn! I still intimidate them!'  Odd to take what was intended as an insult as a compliment, but I'm way past the getting jazzed about that particular term.  Back in the 80s I started responding 'well, duh!' when people said that to me.

I haven't lived in Michigan since 1980.  But I knew of entrapment incidents that happened there in the late 70s and early 80s.  Not quite bashing - but somewhat related, IMHO.

Thanks again for posting here.

mf

p.s. - all kinds of folks live in cities - so even if the majority are 'liberal' there are always some who take exception.  It just takes one.
I do my thing, & you do your thing. I am not in this world to live up to your expectations, and you are not in this world to live up to mine. You are you and I am I, and if by chance we find each other - it is beautiful. If not it can't be helped.

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271horses

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Re: Gay bashing
« Reply #77 on: December 10, 2006, 04:12:41 PM »
I read about this story in TDS and have bookmarked it so that I can read it soon. I have only started on a very few new stories since the BBQ, just finishing up the ones/series I started before then, but your story sounds so intriguing that I simply have to read it. (My partner's name is Earl, and Fritz is kinda close to Rich!  :D  )

I was also in the Army during the Vietnam era, but not having any real idea about my true nature back then, I didn't experience any particular antigay sentiments, except the usual unavoidable during Basic.



Hmmm...well, its faithful to the original, so the last line isn't, and they lived happily ever after in their guesthouse in Key West or anything.

Rich gets his licks in.  No one gets away with it. 

I was Gulf War I Era, at the height of Don't ask, don't tell, so I heard a lot of antigay shit, deep in the closet and married back then, and putting on a big hetero show.  Alternated a lot between feeling shame at it, and wanting to shove the comment-ators feet first in a woodchipper, feed 'em in slow.

More awareness in those days than VietNam, which leads both ways.

271horses

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Re: Gay bashing
« Reply #78 on: December 10, 2006, 04:21:59 PM »


Thanks so much for the links!  I loved Lucian's 'Riding Fence' and can't wait to tackle this.

hahhah, I'm his beta (editor), one of 'em, anyways.

My experience with bashing goes from rural areas to mid-size and large cities.  I grew up in rural Michigan - about 60 miles northeast of Bay City.  The majority of incidents in Michigan took place in East Lansing.  Strange that it would be in a college town, but I would guess that comes from young men having anxiety about their sexuality at that point in their lives.  And the incidents in California happened in San Francisco.

About 4 years about I was back in East Lansing (my family is in Michigan - I go back to visit often) and a carload of boys drove by and yelled 'fa**ot' as me as they spun past.  This has gotten so old by this point that my immediate thought was 'Hot damn! I still intimidate them!'  Odd to take what was intended as an insult as a compliment, but I'm way past the getting jazzed about that particular term.  Back in the 80s I started responding 'well, duh!' when people said that to me.

Youre likely right about it just being insecure boys.  Kids driving by like that, yelling something, doesn't even necessarily sound like they tagged you as gay, my nephews' friends use it as an all-purpose insult, and in the military you hear it so much you almost don't hear it.
My friends know not to use it around me but I ain't so naive to think they never use it, its so ingrained.  Out of respect, when we're insulting each other, we tend to call each other "bitch", which really seems to have become unisex now.
I know, can't we all just get along, but you can't measure progress in feet but millimeters.

Offline Castro

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Re: Gay bashing
« Reply #79 on: December 11, 2006, 02:39:20 PM »
Judy Shepherd, on the current climate in Wyoming:
Quote
Have things in Wyoming changed at all?
I think the people that are accepting now were accepting then, [but] the general consensus here is that all crimes are hate crimes, and that's not true. We have no hate-crime laws in Wyoming—not just for gays and lesbians, but for anyone. [We're] one of only four states left in the union with no hate-crime law.
Here's the full interview text:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16116604/site/newsweek/

271horses

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Re: Gay bashing
« Reply #80 on: December 14, 2006, 11:54:56 AM »
Got a few PMs, gist was, well that's nice, you're big and mean-looking and they leave you alone, how about an average, not-threatening looking guy with no combat training, got any advice there, Sarge?

Guess that might of sounded smug, it wasnt meant to, just my intense contempt for cowards that only pick lopsided fights that they think they can't lose, or yell stuff from cars, surrounded by their buddies.  But it got me thinking, what about  guys who for whatever reason get tagged as gay?  What are they supposed to do?

When I was doing my research on gaybashing, I asked this cop friend of mind if they kept stats on victims and perpetrators, and what percentage of incidents got called in, resolved, where did they happen etc.  She said yeah, they actually did.
Figuring for a statistical under-reporting in general, the perpetrators tended to be young, male, traveling in a pack, liquored up.  They came from the whole class spectrum, college boys as well as rednecks with pickup trucks, and not at all were they religious or even politicaly conservative.  To my chagrin, though not surprise, all 5 branches of the Armed Forces were well represented.

The victims were not necessarily all gay, they ranged in age from schoolkids to old men, and they were not necessarily by themselves in an isolated situation.  Most of the incidents were not violent, usually name-calling, but what struck me was overwhelmingly, there were 2 kinds, harrassment of men perceived as gay in areas known to be the "gay neighborhood", and the other type was schoolkids, in school, on school grounds or coming/going to school.

I live in a rural area a couple hours drive from a mid-size city with a distinct though not huge gay scene, near the college in town, and like most "gay areas" its mostly liberal straights but gay people are open and therefore more visible.  There's a few bars and nightclubs though it ain't Mardi Gras or anything.  An average big city.

The vast majority involve guys going specifically TO the gay neighborhood, even if they live 100 miles away, get drunk, and drive by the bars (they always seem to know where they are) and jeer at the queers.
Or you have the high school kid, getting his ass taped or his bookbag thrown down the stairs, etc.

One statistic blew me right away:  though there's a fair number of ethnic minorities here, and they are recent enough that their presence causes tensions (including a lot of head-scarf wearing Muslims), the overwhelming majority of bias crimes, proportionately, are directed at gay men, and it has gotten worse in the past few years, what with the antigay marriage bills and general raised profile of this image.
So that means if you are a gay man, you have a much better chance of being a victim of a hate crime than a black man, Latino, anyone, even though most gay men ARE NOT READILY IDENTIFIABLE.

We have gotten into this issue over on the Gay and Masculine thread, back and forth, often enough I've come to wonder if there arent 2 distinct groups if homosexual men, often pretty hostile to each other.  Not getting into it here, but it seems to me that "sterotypical" gay men, or whatever term you want to use, are often so alienated from the traditional tenets of "manliness" that they reject all of it, don't watch sports, don't hunt, fish, etc.  Often they have been presecuted by such men that conform to the societal decree of what is masculine, and have something like post-traumatic stress syndrome from growing up as a boy who dont fit with the other boys, and part of that is often they won't have anything to do with physical aggression of any kind, jus shut down in the face of it.

Now I'll likely get in trouble here again, so I'll say right out I am not equating these guys with women, NOT THAT THERES ANYTHING WRONG WITH BEING  A WOMAN, etc.

But in the past, women were always taught if they were attacked, just dont fight back, it'lll make them angrier, basically untaught the most basic instinct we have, the one of self-preservation.  The thinking on that has changed, and a lot of woman have learned to tap into their own reserves of aggression, found that even if you're 5'3'' and 90 pounds, you can still hold off someone way bigger, the main thing is believeing yourself you're capable, and you do this by..doing it.  Training, just like soldiier, to get totally in touch with your physical side.

I guess that is exactly what people expect an ex-soldier to say, recommend combat training for all, but I would respond to that that if you been trained fom a young age to give up on that ability in yourself, and you face a better-than-average chance of facing violence, it is only realistic to try and face what you might have to face, and un-train yourself.  Because actually, most of it is mental, like 95%.

No, I am not putting the responsibility for the violence on the victim, of course not. But expecting law enforcement to do it all is also unrealistic, usually they dont come on the scene till after the fact, and they cant be everywhere at once.
Bottom line, if some drunk bunch of frat boys thought about jumping some little guy by the alley door of Club Monkey or whatever, but heard of a few incidents of that kind that led to the ER, and not for the little guy either, more of them might just keep on driving, keep their thoughts where they belong, to themselves, to say nothing of the reassuring aspect of this for the mental security of guys who are still closeted from that kind of fear
« Last Edit: June 04, 2007, 08:06:42 PM by 271horses »

Offline Castro

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Re: Gay bashing
« Reply #81 on: December 14, 2006, 01:07:56 PM »
Your entire post was interesting, 271horses.  I do want to expand on one thing you say:
Quote
One statistic blew me right away:  though there's a fair number of ethnic minorities here, and they are recent enough that their presence causes tensions (including a lot of head-scarf wearing Muslims), the overwhelming majority of bias crimes, proportionately, are directed at gay men, and it has gotten worse in the past few years, what with the antigay marriage bills and general raised profile of this image.
So that means if you are a gay man, you have a much better chance of being a victim of a hate crime than a black man, Latino, anyone, even though most gay men ARE NOT READILY IDENTIFIABLE.

I do think that underlying this increase in anti-gay activity, as well as the marriage-protection bills and raised profile you cite, is the great increase in  anti-homosexual rhetoric from religious figures - in this country, primarily Christian denominations. It makes people feel good - and I mean that in both senses of good - to have their  moral indignation whipped up for  noble causes, and what could be nobler than the elimination of abortion and sexual deviation? It's always been easy for folk with a lot of anger or an excess of hormones to translate this into sanctioned violence.

Offline estefue

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Re: Gay bashing
« Reply #82 on: December 20, 2006, 05:55:13 PM »
Please note following announcement

The administration has been working extremely hard to solve the slow down issue that has been plaguing the forum for some months now. It has been determined that to solve this we will have to change the host company of the forum. The new host server has now been contracted with by Dave as of today.

We are proceeding rapidly now and hope to have the conversion complete within a few weeks at the latest and hopefully much sooner. We will keep you (members) apprised. Please look for announcements in the Newsbox. Some changes will likely come up suddenly--that is the nature of computer conversions, so it is impossible to know before we test whether something will go flawlessly and take two hours, or uncover thorny issues that will take days. The testing process is being started. This will not affect the forum at this point.

So taking this into consideration, we don't want to give you timeframes that are unrealistic. As soon as we finish a stage, we'll proceed immediately to the next, and the exact changeover will likely come on very short notice to you (members). We will post this changeover time in the Newsbox as well as in the individual threads, and will give you as much lead time as we can manage. This will enable us to end the slowdown ASAP.

Thank you for your patience.

Offline michaelflanagansf

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Re: Gay bashing
« Reply #83 on: January 12, 2007, 08:36:53 PM »
Here is an interesting article on an attack in San Francisco - which was complicated by a bumbling investigation:

http://www.ebar.com/news/article.php?sec=news&article=1474
I do my thing, & you do your thing. I am not in this world to live up to your expectations, and you are not in this world to live up to mine. You are you and I am I, and if by chance we find each other - it is beautiful. If not it can't be helped.

Fritz Perls - A Gestalt Prayer

Offline michaelflanagansf

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Re: Gay bashing
« Reply #84 on: January 12, 2007, 08:38:59 PM »
And here's an article on the followup to the attack on the Yale singers:

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/01/12/BAG8ANHUTQ6.DTL
I do my thing, & you do your thing. I am not in this world to live up to your expectations, and you are not in this world to live up to mine. You are you and I am I, and if by chance we find each other - it is beautiful. If not it can't be helped.

Fritz Perls - A Gestalt Prayer

Offline gnash

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Re: Gay bashing
« Reply #85 on: January 17, 2007, 02:31:19 AM »
michael, auntie told me about her visit in SF when you and her were walking hand in hand down the street and a girl or two girls called out "faggot" or something.. and remember when we were on the bridge coming off the santa monica pier and that guy yelled out "fucking faggots!" or something? maybe it was singular, i think it was directed to me, because i'd said "look at their beautiful seventies hair" and i guess they overheard realized i was talking about them, since they *did* have long, seventies style hair. anyway. it always amazes me how easy it is for somebody to yell "faggot" but will be careful about using the "N" word (for instance).

i was stopped at a light here in LA and two latinos at a bus stop were showing "fucking faggot, go home" and "fuck you faggot" and all this other F word stuff at the top of their lungs. it was a crowded street corner, and i saw a lone figure, latino himself, walking away. he didn't "seem" gay or anything... but he was the object of their hateful remarks. i don't know what transpired but he was walking away and the other two shouted and threw empty cans and litter at him.. it just boggles the mind to think how "free and easy" they seemed to be tossing the F word around like that, in such a hateful manner. nobody at the bus stop seemed to mind, it was very much a case of "look the other way."

my question -- if a cop was there, would they be in trouble for doing anything? is it okay to call people names? what is this "hate crime" law, and does it cover verbal assault? they were throwing things at him -- nothing connected i don't think -- but they were definitely aiming for him.

if anything they could have been cited for littering! anyway... sigh... i almost wanted to say something to those two, but what could i say,,,, behave yourself?
« Last Edit: January 17, 2007, 02:39:01 AM by gnash »

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Offline michaelflanagansf

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Re: Gay bashing
« Reply #86 on: January 17, 2007, 03:27:48 PM »
michael, auntie told me about her visit in SF when you and her were walking hand in hand down the street and a girl or two girls called out "faggot" or something.. and remember when we were on the bridge coming off the santa monica pier and that guy yelled out "fucking faggots!" or something?

{snip}

my question -- if a cop was there, would they be in trouble for doing anything? is it okay to call people names? what is this "hate crime" law, and does it cover verbal assault? they were throwing things at him -- nothing connected i don't think -- but they were definitely aiming for him.

if anything they could have been cited for littering! anyway... sigh... i almost wanted to say something to those two, but what could i say,,,, behave yourself?

Yes, I do remember the incident in LA Jimmy.  And the incident in San Francisco was even weirder because it was a young beautiful woman who looked at us on New Year's Eve and said 'f****** gay' as she walked by us.  Of course you can't tell when someone uses that word now if they mean 'homosexual' or 'lame'...still.

Regarding your question about what you can do - unless someone is threatening you, or acting menacing, I don't think there is much you can do.  The problem is that this can often escalate quickly.

It's one of the reasons I always carry a cellphone with me (and now I can take their picture too!).

I do my thing, & you do your thing. I am not in this world to live up to your expectations, and you are not in this world to live up to mine. You are you and I am I, and if by chance we find each other - it is beautiful. If not it can't be helped.

Fritz Perls - A Gestalt Prayer

Offline gnash

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Re: Gay bashing
« Reply #87 on: January 19, 2007, 04:10:33 AM »
well, the guys at the bus stop were threatening to beat him up... "i'll kick your faggot ass" was i think what one of them yelled out to him as he was walking away.

anyway. sigh. yes, i hate the phrase "that's so GAY" that is so popular these days...

and good on the cellphone, it is an added bit of security i suppose. thanks for the response!

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Offline michaelflanagansf

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Re: Gay bashing
« Reply #88 on: January 19, 2007, 05:42:44 AM »
well, the guys at the bus stop were threatening to beat him up... "i'll kick your faggot ass" was i think what one of them yelled out to him as he was walking away.

anyway. sigh. yes, i hate the phrase "that's so GAY" that is so popular these days...

and good on the cellphone, it is an added bit of security i suppose. thanks for the response!

Oh...well, yes - I would call the police on that.  Pretty much like when I see a man threatening a woman on the street - even if I don't know them and it doesn't look too serious it's often worth a call.  You've just reminded me that I need to program the 'non-emergency' police number into my cell phone.  I like to have that one around for instances like this where threat of harm doesn't seem imminent but is possible.

Regarding 'that's so Gay' - I actually heard a mindless sports fan reprimand another for using the word 'faggot' in the underground the other day - said 'dude, don't drop f-bombs'.  Progress comes in little steps.
I do my thing, & you do your thing. I am not in this world to live up to your expectations, and you are not in this world to live up to mine. You are you and I am I, and if by chance we find each other - it is beautiful. If not it can't be helped.

Fritz Perls - A Gestalt Prayer

Offline michaelflanagansf

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Re: Gay bashing
« Reply #89 on: January 19, 2007, 06:00:25 AM »
Quote
One statistic blew me right away:  though there's a fair number of ethnic minorities here, and they are recent enough that their presence causes tensions (including a lot of head-scarf wearing Muslims), the overwhelming majority of bias crimes, proportionately, are directed at gay men, and it has gotten worse in the past few years, what with the antigay marriage bills and general raised profile of this image.
So that means if you are a gay man, you have a much better chance of being a victim of a hate crime than a black man, Latino, anyone, even though most gay men ARE NOT READILY IDENTIFIABLE.

I do think that underlying this increase in anti-gay activity, as well as the marriage-protection bills and raised profile you cite, is the great increase in  anti-homosexual rhetoric from religious figures - in this country, primarily Christian denominations. It makes people feel good - and I mean that in both senses of good - to have their  moral indignation whipped up for  noble causes, and what could be nobler than the elimination of abortion and sexual deviation? It's always been easy for folk with a lot of anger or an excess of hormones to translate this into sanctioned violence.

A couple of comments on this - first off, gay people are a safe bet as targets in a large portion of the country because the ones that are there are often either deeply closeted or don't identify with urban gay life, and therefore bigots get a pretty much free ride (they aren't challenged as much IMHO - and when they are it is often at more personal risk from the challenger).

Part of the winnowing out process that goes on for the 'obvious' in rural America has a lot to do with whether or not you are able to get away (or hide).  I'm pretty obvious - I wasn't wearing pink paisley shirts and eye makeup in the Midwest in high school, but I'm pretty androgynous and that raises hackles (and suspicions) too [bigots don't spend a lot of time distinguishing gender non-conformity from sexual behavior, etc.].  I was remembering a man who lived with his sister in the tourist trap town near me earlier today.  He was one of those people that were 'suspected' - he responded by withdrawing and having only a few close friends.  I think one of the messages I got growing up was that if I didn't want to wind up like that I needed to move to a large city - and when I did move to a large enough city (Lansing, Michigan has a population of over 100,000) it became clear to me (particularly upon visiting the west coast) that it could be even easier if you moved to a much larger city.

So I guess that part of the 'target' thing in areas with large Christian populations is that they suspect that they'll get a 'free ride' in their bigotry (not be challenged that much) - but at the same time it sensitizes them to sexual orientation and gender differences so that they are much more ready to spot targets.

FWIW
I do my thing, & you do your thing. I am not in this world to live up to your expectations, and you are not in this world to live up to mine. You are you and I am I, and if by chance we find each other - it is beautiful. If not it can't be helped.

Fritz Perls - A Gestalt Prayer