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Author Topic: Sports: Football, Baseball, Bball, Hockey, Etc.  (Read 449923 times)

Offline Flyboy

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Re: Sports: Football, Baseball, Bball, Hockey, Etc.
« Reply #7290 on: February 12, 2018, 04:38:37 PM »
I thought there were be some commentary in here about how in the WORLD Adam Rippon could have lost to that Canadian? I must have missed something in his performance that outshone Adam's......hmmmmmm?

Online fritzkep

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Re: Sports: Football, Baseball, Bball, Hockey, Etc.
« Reply #7291 on: February 12, 2018, 04:54:42 PM »
Check out Chuck's commentary in the Diner.

Werd ich zum Augenblicke sagen, "Verweile doch! Du bist so schön..."

Online CellarDweller115

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Re: Sports: Football, Baseball, Bball, Hockey, Etc.
« Reply #7292 on: February 12, 2018, 05:10:41 PM »
I thought there were be some commentary in here about how in the WORLD Adam Rippon could have lost to that Canadian? I must have missed something in his performance that outshone Adam's......hmmmmmm?


I put a whole explanation in the diner!  I will copy and paste here.   That way I can have two posts that look like "war and peace" here!

:laugh:

Online CellarDweller115

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Re: Sports: Football, Baseball, Bball, Hockey, Etc.
« Reply #7293 on: February 12, 2018, 05:11:24 PM »


Hello Jonn!  I can explain what happened, but it's a bit of a read, so sit and enjoy!

:laugh:


Figure skating originally had panel of 9 judges.  Those judges would give each skater two scores, based on a scale of 0.0 (not skated) to 6.0 (perfect).  The first score would be for technical merit, and the second score for artistic merit.

There was a lot of drama and accusations of cheating between judges.  Since the judges were public, scores could be seen, and judges pressured by countries to give higher marks to certain skaters.

The biggest drama came to light at the 2002 Olympics.  Russia pair skaters Elena Berezhnaya and Anton Sikharulidze had beaten Canada's Jamie Salé and David Pelletier. 

During the live broadcast, both the American (NBC Sports' Tom Hammond, Scott Hamilton and Sandra Bezic) and Canadian (CBC Sports' Paul Martini and Barbara Underhill) commentators proclaimed that Salé and Pelletier won as they finished and expressed outrage when the judges' marks were announced.

There was immediate suspicion of cheating, according to ABC's Good Morning America and USA Today. Judges from Russia, the People's Republic of China, Poland, Ukraine, and France had placed the Russians first; judges from the United States, Canada, Germany, and Japan chose the Canadians. Suspicion fell quickly on the French judge, Marie-Reine Le Gougne.

When Le Gougne returned to the officials' hotel, Sally Stapleford, chair of the International Skating Union's Technical Committee, confronted her. Le Gougne had an emotional breakdown in which she allegedly said that she had been pressured by the head of the French skating organization, Didier Gailhaguet, to vote for the Russian pair regardless of how the others performed.  She reportedly repeated this at the post-event judges' meeting the next day.  It was alleged that this was part of a deal to get an advantage for French couple Marina Anissina and Gwendal Peizerat in the ice dance competition that was to follow a few days later.


In an effort to stop such issues, the scoring system was totally revamped.

There are now two panels of judges, and the scores remain anonymous, so judges are able to avoid feeling pressured about not giving high scores to skaters who don't deserve them.   The first panel of judges is the Technical panel.

Under the ISU Judging System, base value of each element performed by the skater is identified by the Technical Panel. The Technical Panel's purpose is to identify all of the elements performed by the skater in real time as they happen. They are also responsible for any "technical errors" to jumps; identifying falls of the skater- and any "levels of difficulty" performed in Spins and Steps.

The Technical Panel is comprised of five people. The first is the Technical Specialist (TS) who verbally calls the elements as they happen in real time. The second is the Assistant Technical Specialist (ATS) whose primary purpose is to take written notes on all the elements performed and weigh in on any decisions on technical calls during "the review." The third person is the Technical Controller (TC) who is there to supervise the panel, and break and ties on technical decisions during the review of elements when the TS and ATS do not agree. The Controller is also responsible for "rule vetting" the program, and to throw out any elements that break the rules for that level and specific program. Fourth is the Data Operator (DO) who puts the codes of the elements and levels of difficulty into the computer system. The Data Operator also flags elements called 'for review." In the United States the Data Operator also replays the video clips of the elements during the review process. The Data person is also the Controller's right hand man (or woman) to rule vet, the event the controller is unsure or makes a mistake. Lastly is the Video Replay Operator, who marks clips of elements for review. In the United States, this person is not involved in the Review process. Internationally, however, this person replays the clips in place of the Data Operator.

the second panel is the Judging Panel.


The judging panel's primary purpose is to grade the quality of each individual technical element performed by the skater (known as a Grade of Execution or GOE), and the five Program Component Scores for each segment of the competitions. The five component scores replaced the old "Presentation Mark" in the 6.0 system. At most international events and other large National Championships (like US Championships) there are nine judges, but at smaller competitions a panel could be comprised of four, five, six, or seven judges. Unlike the way an odd number is needed in the old 6.0 system to break ties, this isn't necessary with averaging marks in IJS.

All this was done to make the scoring more mathematical, to prevent cheating.  However, a new situation has risen.  ::)

The scoring system gives the base score to all elements.  The more difficult the element, the higher the score.  This means that if skater tries a difficult jump, completes all the rotations, but falls, it gets a higher score than an easier jump that is landed cleanly.

The skaters from Canada and Russia tried difficult quadruple jumps.  They completed the required rotations in the air, so they got the points for that, but the flawed landing caused a lower presentation/GOE mark.

Adam Rippon skated a clean program, but all his jumps were triple jumps.  That gave him a lower base score, which is why he was placed lower.

The federation of figure skating is looking into this, and is going to attempt to fix it.

Offline Flyboy

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Re: Sports: Football, Baseball, Bball, Hockey, Etc.
« Reply #7294 on: February 12, 2018, 05:11:46 PM »
LOL!!! Great idea, Chuck!! I did read it in the Diner though...... :D :D :D

Online CellarDweller115

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Re: Sports: Football, Baseball, Bball, Hockey, Etc.
« Reply #7295 on: February 12, 2018, 05:28:22 PM »
I know the USA got a Bronze medal in the team ice skaiting events.
Canada Gold, Russian Athletes Silver.  Chuck, I want your commentary
and opinions!   :)


Well, to start I'll explain what event took place last night, since casual sports fans may not know.

Starting with the 2014 Olympics, the IOC (International Olympic Committee)  created a Figure Skating Team event.

There are four disciplines for figure skating.....men's singles, ladies' singles, pairs, and ice dance.  Not each country will have skaters in each discipline,  however, some do.  A nation assembles its best skaters from each discipline – ladies, men’s, pairs, and ice dance – and is allowed two substitutions. For example, at the 2014 Sochi Olympics, these skaters competed for the U.S. in the team event, and each earned a bronze medal for their efforts:

Ladies: Ashley Wagner (short program only) and Gracie Gold (free skate only)
Men: Jeremy Abbott (short program only) and Jason Brown (free skate only)
Pairs: Marissa Castelli and Simon Shnapir (short program and free skate)
Ice dance: Meryl Davis and Charlie White (short dance and free dance)

The programs in the team event are scored in the same way that the disciplines are scored. Then, the skaters earn points based on their rankings. For example, if the U.S. skaters were to place 5th in men’s, 7th in pairs, 1st in dance and 4th in ladies during the short programs, the U.S. team would earn 27 points (6+4+10+7).

After each of the short programs, the top five highest-scoring teams advance to the free program round. For example, the U.S. could advance from the short phase to the free phase with their score of 27 points. Then, the U.S. could place 2nd in men’s, 4th in pairs, 1st in dance and 2nd in ladies during the free skates, and its total placement points score for the free skates would be 35 (9+7+10+9) and its aggregate score for the entire team competition would be 62 (27 points in the short phase + 35 points in the free phase). The team with the most points after both phases wins the gold medal, followed by the silver and bronze medal winners, respectively.


Team Canada won their gold last night on the strength of their women, pair and ice dance team.  Patrick Chan (male skater) finished third behind Israel and Japan.

Team USA got their bronze because of the fight of Adam Rippon and Mirai Nagasu.  Had Nathan Chen skated up to his usual standards, he would've been in first place, putting the USA in first place.   They would've had 3 more points for the total.

Adam deserved a higher placement than what he got, but that was explained in my prior post.   He was fantastic, as was Mirai Nagasu and her triple axel.

The Russian women and pairs fought hard to make up for the mistakes of the Russian men, so they truly earned that silver medal.  It would've been gold if not for the bad skates from the Russian men.

Offline Lyle (Mooska)

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Re: Sports: Football, Baseball, Bball, Hockey, Etc.
« Reply #7296 on: February 13, 2018, 10:17:28 AM »

Thanks for all your posts, Chuck!

The federation of figure skating is looking into this, and is going to attempt to fix it.

If I get this right, are you saying that as long as the rotations are completed it is acceptable to subsequently fall down without any penalty?
There is no deduction for falling down afterwards?

Mirai Nagasu would have had the same score if she had fallen after her triple axel?

I'm glad airlines don't say, we completed our flight successfully, but we crashed upon landing.

Online fritzkep

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Re: Sports: Football, Baseball, Bball, Hockey, Etc.
« Reply #7297 on: February 13, 2018, 10:33:21 AM »
The operation was successful, but the patient died.

Werd ich zum Augenblicke sagen, "Verweile doch! Du bist so schön..."

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Re: Sports: Football, Baseball, Bball, Hockey, Etc.
« Reply #7298 on: February 13, 2018, 11:35:05 AM »
Both of those statements is exactly what that sounds like. How is it fair that a skater who skates will no falls is scored above one who has several falls. Sounds VERY unfair.
If you don't impact someone, then this is all a waste.
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Online CellarDweller115

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Re: Sports: Football, Baseball, Bball, Hockey, Etc.
« Reply #7299 on: February 13, 2018, 04:48:03 PM »
If I get this right, are you saying that as long as the rotations are completed it is acceptable to subsequently fall down without any penalty?   There is no deduction for falling down afterwards?

Mirai Nagasu would have had the same score if she had fallen after her triple axel?

The way I understand it, it works like this.


Mirai Nagasu attempts her triple axel.   She lands it cleanly.   She gets a base score of 9.00 for the difficult jump from the technical judges.   Now, the artistic judges look at the jump.  She she have an improper landing pose?  Did she land the jump on two feet?  Did she put one hand down to steady herself?   If none of that happened, on top of her technical score she can earn an additional 3.00 points for her GOE score (Grade of execution).   So the jump could be 12.00 points total.

If she completes all the rotations in the air, and makes any of the mistakes I mentioned above, she could receive 0.00 for her GOE, or a negative GOE, which would take away from the points earned.

On top of that, a fall on a jump is an additional 1.00 deduction from the skater's total.

So if Mirai attempts her axel, completes all the rotations, but falls, she gets 9.00 from the technical panel, but then the GOE panel steps in, and may decide the fall allows them to deduct 1.5 from that base value, making it 7.5.  Then the 1.00 deduction for the fall is calculated, so the jump is now worth only 6.5 points.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2018, 04:58:35 PM by CellarDweller115 »

Online CellarDweller115

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Re: Sports: Football, Baseball, Bball, Hockey, Etc.
« Reply #7300 on: February 13, 2018, 04:57:19 PM »
According to the figure skating website I found, the values for jumps are different, and that's what the main issue is.


A triple toe loop is the easiest triple, and gets a base value of 4.1 points.   If Adam Rippon completes a triple toe loop, and gets the full base points, plus the full artistic quality points (GOE) it would be a complete score of 7.1 for the jump.

The easiest quad jump is the quad toe loop, and it gets a base value of 10.3 points.  If Patrick Chan does a quad toe loop, gets the full base points, but errs on the landing (without falling - two foot landing or hands to ice) he would get a GOE deduction of 2.0, which would make the point total for the jump 8.3 points, still higher than Adam's score for the clean triple.  If Patrick falls, he gets the 1.0 deduction, making the quad jump total a 7.3, still slightly higher than Adam's 7.1 triple jump.

Offline Flyboy

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Re: Sports: Football, Baseball, Bball, Hockey, Etc.
« Reply #7301 on: February 13, 2018, 05:35:04 PM »
Sounds like a classic SNAFU to me!!  :D :D :D

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Re: Sports: Football, Baseball, Bball, Hockey, Etc.
« Reply #7302 on: February 13, 2018, 08:40:16 PM »
Like I said, the figure skating association is looking into ways to correct the issues.

Offline Lyle (Mooska)

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Re: Sports: Football, Baseball, Bball, Hockey, Etc.
« Reply #7303 on: February 14, 2018, 12:35:41 PM »

Thanks for the explanations, Chuck.

It sounds to me like "falling" should have a higher deduction as your jump wasn't executed correctly.
I say that because falling is the most notable thing to happen in a routine, if it does happen. It should
have a higher deduction IMO.

Offline Lyle (Mooska)

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Re: Sports: Football, Baseball, Bball, Hockey, Etc.
« Reply #7304 on: February 16, 2018, 11:08:31 AM »

Nathan Chen is in 17th place going into the men's figure skating tonight.
What the heck is going on with him? It has to be something. He's had
a total meltdown at the Olympics, wouldn't you have to say that? He is
only 18, but so are other Olympic performers. I'm at a loss for words.

Really enjoyed Adam Rippon last night. He's not going to win any medals
tonight (never say never) in 7th place at the moment, largely because it
seems it's all about the quads right now, but when he's competing it seems
like he IS the winner regardless.

A reporter asked him: “You’re 28 years old, skating the best you ever have
in your life. How do you explain that to people?”

Adam replied: “I can’t explain witchcraft.”

LOL!  ;D