The Ultimate Brokeback Forum

Author Topic: Brokeback's Impact on Women  (Read 216449 times)

Offline mary

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Re: Another woman who loves Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #30 on: December 30, 2005, 12:50:00 PM »
I'd never heard that differentiation. Amazing the things I learn here. Another reason for fag hag to have a negative connotation to me.
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Offline dan

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Re: Another woman who loves Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #31 on: December 30, 2005, 01:46:31 PM »
Mary , this is just a guess, but could BBM's intense appeal to some women be because it shows rather average guys who experience the desperate kind of love that one never sees in fiction? Aside from rare characters like Heathcliff, males are always depicted as comical when they're in love.  Or worse, as sex-crazed and temporarily insane. 

It seems a little odd that there are heroines galore whose souls are being torn apart by grief and love ... but not males.  BBM shows men in love -- and the sex and love are completely inseparable parts of it.

Is it possible that a female who really longs for a soulmate  -- in a culture that prohibits men from experiencing or admitting too much emotion -- gets absolutely clobbered by BBM's message that males intensity really can exist?  And then gets doubly-clobbered by seeing  men getting ripped to pieces by having it denied to them -- in the way that  has been culturally reserved only for females?

Offline ruth

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Re: Another woman who loves Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #32 on: December 30, 2005, 05:30:27 PM »
 I think that must a big part of it all. I can remember when I was a girl, I was totally mystified by the concept of male homosexuality. Men are stoic, unemotional creatures! How can two of them fall in love? How does it work, it can't possibly--how do they...you know, express affection?  It wasn't until I met some gay folks that it all started to make sense.

But there might be something else too...almost like a fascination with a secret society we women are just not privy to. Tell me if you think I'm full of it, but for me, (perhaps because of my past failed relationships with men and my seeming inability to maintain one) there is an unfortunate hunch that men don't share that most intimate part of their lives, their emotional part, with the wimmenfolk.  That is reserved for their male friends and lovers.  So in watching BBM (or in indulging in fantasies about our men with other men) we become witness to it, and it's mesmerizing (and more than a bit of a turn on).

what do you think?

Offline Dave Cullen

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Re: Another woman who loves Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #33 on: December 30, 2005, 05:39:37 PM »
I think that must a big part of it all. I can remember when I was a girl, I was totally mystified by the concept of male homosexuality. Men are stoic, unemotional creatures! How can two of them fall in love? How does it work, it can't possibly--how do they...you know, express affection?  It wasn't until I met some gay folks that it all started to make sense.

But there might be something else too...almost like a fascination with a secret society we women are just not privy to. Tell me if you think I'm full of it, but for me, (perhaps because of my past failed relationships with men and my seeming inability to maintain one) there is an unfortunate hunch that men don't share that most intimate part of their lives, their emotional part, with the wimmenfolk.  That is reserved for their male friends and lovers.  So in watching BBM (or in indulging in fantasies about our men with other men) we become witness to it, and it's mesmerizing (and more than a bit of a turn on).

what do you think?

Hmmmmm. VERY interesting. let me think on that. you're kinda swaying me.

i'm just checking in on this thread for the first time--sorry, been really busy--and some incredible insights here.

i am SO happy to have this thread. and all you women here. you keep hitting me from points of view totally outside my awareness.

i never even thought of men as "stoic, unemotional creatures," for starters, because i was a boy myself, and i never felt anything like that.

Offline mary

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Re: Another woman who loves Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #34 on: December 30, 2005, 05:53:22 PM »
Mary , this is just a guess, but could BBM's intense appeal to some women be because it shows rather average guys who experience the desperate kind of love that one never sees in fiction? Aside from rare characters like Heathcliff, males are always depicted as comical when they're in love. Or worse, as sex-crazed and temporarily insane.

Is it possible that a female who really longs for a soulmate -- in a culture that prohibits men from experiencing or admitting too much emotion -- gets absolutely clobbered by BBM's message that males intensity really can exist? And then gets doubly-clobbered by seeing men getting ripped to pieces by having it denied to them -- in the way that has been culturally reserved only for females?

dan
I've been trying to answer your question all day and for now all I can say is - yes that is part of it, but somehow that doesn't cover everything I'm feeling.  I know I read one review in which the writer said this film was like watching love invented (or something like that) and that is part of what I felt too.
Still pondering and reading, loving the input of others as they try to help articulate the feelings that this amazing film has generated

(Thanks Dave - it took me so long to answer my response was not right after dan's original post)
« Last Edit: December 30, 2005, 06:11:58 PM by mary »
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Offline Dave Cullen

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Re: Another woman who loves Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #35 on: December 30, 2005, 06:00:32 PM »
mary--and anyone else unaware--if you hit the "quote" button at the top of a post you are replying to, it will open a little reply window with the original post already quoted and formatted there for you, so you can just type in your response below it, and people will know exactly what you are responding to.

it's usually best to edit down the original post too, to the relevant line or two, especially with a long post. just add elipses anywhere you cut, to ID where you have made deletions. (if you just select a single sentence or two with no cuts, no need to do that, usually.)

i hope that helps.

Offline Ranchgal

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Re: Another woman who loves Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #36 on: December 30, 2005, 07:59:55 PM »
How are all you married womens' S.O.'s dealing with it?
Hi Ruth,  welcome to the board.  My husband doesn't really worry about my crushes anymore.  (I'm not even sure he realizes I have one on Jake.)  Actually, he tends to benefit from them.  His only concern is the time I spend sitting online or reading or going to movies that takes away from doing other things.  I used to have a major crush on an actor whom I eventually met.  Hubby was ok with that but felt a little ignored.  I solved that problem by having him meet the actor too and they hit it off. (hahaha)
QUOTE QUOTE




My Hubby too tends to have issues not so much about me having a crush on the actor as much as the time I spend on line, at the board, and the money I tend to spend on ebay etc enhancing a collection, of articles, pictures, etc whatever strikes me.    Too much time online always causes friction, I am not sure if he is alittle jealous/neglected--or if he just wants the phone line free??

Just am getting over a huge Third Watch addiction that was the worst---so me liking a movie, actor that I don't see or HAVE TO TAPE every week--is an improvement as far as he is concerned. LOL

I first found Jake in OCTOBER SKY and Hubby liked it too-his sense of growing up and family conflicts, learning who he was was really fun to watch.  Even seemed to grow physically-and since then, except for The Day After Tomarrow-J hasn't been in anything that Hub would watch.   But I have most of them just in case.  ;D
« Last Edit: December 30, 2005, 08:03:22 PM by Ranchgal »

Offline dan

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Re: Another woman who loves Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #37 on: December 31, 2005, 06:40:38 AM »


<<But there might be something else too...almost like a fascination with a secret society we women are just not privy to. Tell me if you think I'm full of it, but for me, (perhaps because of my past failed relationships with men and my seeming inability to maintain one) there is an unfortunate hunch that men don't share that most intimate part of their lives, their emotional part, with the wimmenfolk.  That is reserved for their male friends and lovers.  So in watching BBM (or in indulging in fantasies about our men with other men) we become witness to it, and it's mesmerizing (and more than a bit of a turn on).

what do you think?>>


Ruth -- interesting hunch there.  I'm not sure I know what the  male rulebook says about self-revelation to friends and lovers  (-- I was assigned a damaged copy, I think) -- but for me it has always felt like it's permitted to be open with a female, but not with a male.  When a guy starts dipping into emotions, it clearly says I'm supposed to look away, pretend it didn't happen, and generally give forgiveness for a sinful lapse. And then give him a some kind of subject-changing kick in the butt.

On the other hand, if something unthinkable has happened, and I'm welcoming this lapse -- or want to reciprocate with equal intimacy -- then I'm just plain gay and have to switch to the gay rulebook  (which no one gave me a copy of, so I just would be free to to whatever I wanted).  In my case, I've always responded to these situations (only had 2) with flight and fear.

Offline Meira

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Re: Another woman who loves Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #38 on: December 31, 2005, 06:51:34 AM »

But there might be something else too...almost like a fascination with a secret society we women are just not privy to. Tell me if you think I'm full of it, but for me, (perhaps because of my past failed relationships with men and my seeming inability to maintain one) there is an unfortunate hunch that men don't share that most intimate part of their lives, their emotional part, with the wimmenfolk.  That is reserved for their male friends and lovers.  So in watching BBM (or in indulging in fantasies about our men with other men) we become witness to it, and it's mesmerizing (and more than a bit of a turn on).

what do you think?


i never even thought of men as "stoic, unemotional creatures," for starters, because i was a boy myself, and i never felt anything like that.


  I hope I did this quote thing correctly.  I have not experienced too many "stoic, unemotional" men, with the exception of the years I spent in the corporate world in an old Boston Brahmin company.  Perhaps the stoic thing is a cultural phenomenon.  I grew up Jewish, in a mostly Italian neighborhood, and I could not describe my Dad, uncles, cousins or most of our friends and neighbors  that way. 

I have a hunch, that it is in part due to the idealism many women have about relationships. The purity and emotional as well as sexual passion between Ennis and Jack is about ideal as it can get (at first).  It strikes right at our heart of hearts.  To watch that ignite on the mountain that first summer and then witness the frustration as they try to recapture it over the next 20 years is what tears me apart.  I think.  I'm sure there's more to this whole obsession/fascination than that, but I think this is a part of it, anyway.
..your laughter's the wind in my sails....

Offline dan

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Re: Another woman who loves Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #39 on: December 31, 2005, 07:44:19 AM »


Mary -- re


<<dan
I've been trying to answer your question all day and for now all I can say is - yes that is part of it, but somehow that doesn't cover everything I'm feeling.  I know I read one review in which the writer said this film was like watching love invented (or something like that) and that is part of what I felt too.
Still pondering and reading, loving the input of others as they try to help articulate the feelings that this amazing film has generate>>

 Man, I'm hopeless with these quotes!   

I think your quote just hit what I was trying to get at.  Because  fiction tends to show male love as  crazy,  suddenly seeing non crazy men fall totally in love is like a whole new experience.  It has to be scarey as hell for a lot of men, but must be thrilling for a female. 

Offline Meira

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Re: Another woman who loves Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #40 on: December 31, 2005, 08:36:49 AM »
You bet!
..your laughter's the wind in my sails....

Offline Meira

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Re: Another woman who loves Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #41 on: December 31, 2005, 08:38:35 AM »

<<dan

 
... but must be thrilling for a female. 

Quote

You bet!
..your laughter's the wind in my sails....

Offline dan

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Re: Another woman who loves Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #42 on: December 31, 2005, 09:26:43 AM »
Quote

<<dan

 
... but must be thrilling for a female. 

Quote

You bet!
Quote


So many men on this site have told a similar story to mine ... about an early recreational same sex experience that took years, and often, the death of the buddy -- for them to realize that that 'something'  profound had happened. 

It's making me wonder if my attitudes about early recreational straight sex experiences don't have something in common.  Most of the women I've known, tended to fear premarital sex because they had been taught since childhood that a guy just wanted to use them, and then run away. 

What if the straight story was really the same thing?  Something profound was really happening, and neither one was equipped to deal with it, and it triggered distance and breakup?   

I'm wondering if the conventional wisdom -- 'you got used and abused' -- wasn't/ isn't easier to deal with than a painful awareness of having had and lost something.

Maybe the horrible reality that BBM exposes is that  most love is temporary, probably  doomed, and stays deep within  you forever ... ???



Offline ruth

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Re: Another woman who loves Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #43 on: December 31, 2005, 11:26:01 AM »
Good Golly Dan, you really hit on something there.

"They" say women's relationships with men are all based on their relationship with their father---(is that a Freudian concept? I get 'em mixed up). In my case I grew up with an Irish Catholic father and a quiet mother; plus two older brothers who I never really got to know until we all grew up. All very stoic men, and sort of unavailable emotionally. So perhaps I did project that image onto other men at one time (and maybe still do to a certain extent, tho I'm trying to get over it).

BBM is a fine example of how the father influence isn't limited to females though---that scene with Ennis meeting Jack's dad...I still get the heebie jeebies thinking about it, and how MUCH Ennis must have loved Jack---the act of visiting the parents was probably one of the bravest things he did in the movie. Approaching the house with the camera made ME nervous out there sitting in my theatre seat.

Temporary, doomed love that sticks with you forever...yeah I think that sums it up. Not a very happy thought to start the New Year with however!

Offline dan

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Re: Another woman who loves Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #44 on: December 31, 2005, 01:38:26 PM »
Ruth --

BBM is making me think about that male unemotional/stoic thing in some really novel ways.

I'm definitely emotional and expressive,but it was always reserved for a female love interest.  (Sorry Mom, Sis -- you became uncomfortable to talk to after puberty, so you never had any idea that I was often emotionally destroyed over girlfriends.)   

Curiously enough, my closest male friends were the ones who knew that stuff -- tho it was always filtered thru the male rulebook beforehand.  Except for one friend.  He and I had both been in love with the same woman.  We knew everything about each other's relationships so we openly admitted disappointment -- hell, I think he cried once -- over finding the most perfectly sexually responsive, sweet, considerate woman he had ever met, and finding that she just didn't share his connection.  (I mean TRUE LOVE.)  He changed after that, and married someone who I knew very little about.  It was as if he'd won the lottery, and then found out it was alll play money.  He was never the same.

I knew him once upon a time.  I'm sorry now that I didn't realize what intimacy I had while it still existed.