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Author Topic: Ennis and Cassie Scenes  (Read 121511 times)

Offline lauren

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Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
« Reply #60 on: February 14, 2006, 09:11:24 AM »
A new interview with LARRY McMURTRY and DIANA OSSANA: http://www.cinemalogue.com/2006/02/14/brokeback-interview/

Their comments on the Cassie scenes:

MW: For what purpose did you expand the role of Cassie (Linda Cardellini), and what part did she play in Ennis’ relationship to the women in his life?

DO: Cassie somewhat exemplifies Ennis’s continual denial of his emotional makeup, and his attempts to have what he believed was a “normal” relationship with a woman. After his and Jack’s final confrontation about Mexico, Ennis realizes that it is Jack he truly loves, and he simply cannot continue in his attempts at a relationship with Cassie, thus her confronting him in the diner about his whereabouts and her frustrations and painful realization that she’s not “the one.”


Thank you Lynn. I was just about to post this. This is what I thought was occuring in this scene, and although it casts things in a sad light (Ennis never had the chance to voice this to Jack, though I'm sure Jack knew Ennis loved him), it's good to know that this was Ennis' realization at this point and that he could very well have been thinking about talking with Jack on their next trip and making a positive change for the two of them. I was very glad to read this.

Offline lauren

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Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
« Reply #61 on: February 14, 2006, 09:14:52 AM »
A new interview with LARRY McMURTRY and DIANA OSSANA: http://www.cinemalogue.com/2006/02/14/brokeback-interview/

Their comments on the Cassie scenes:

MW: For what purpose did you expand the role of Cassie (Linda Cardellini), and what part did she play in Ennis’ relationship to the women in his life?

DO: Cassie somewhat exemplifies Ennis’s continual denial of his emotional makeup, and his attempts to have what he believed was a “normal” relationship with a woman. After his and Jack’s final confrontation about Mexico, Ennis realizes that it is Jack he truly loves, and he simply cannot continue in his attempts at a relationship with Cassie, thus her confronting him in the diner about his whereabouts and her frustrations and painful realization that she’s not “the one.”


Thank you Lynn. I was just about to post this. This is what I thought was occuring in this scene, and although it casts things in a sad light (Ennis never had the chance to voice this to Jack, though I'm sure Jack knew Ennis loved him), it's good to know that this was Ennis' realization at this point and that he could very well have been thinking about talking with Jack on their next trip and making a positive change for the two of them. I was very glad to read this.


yikes, typo. should be "occurring.."

Offline RonitR

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Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
« Reply #62 on: February 16, 2006, 12:42:38 AM »
And another thing:

A new interview with LARRY McMURTRY and DIANA OSSANA: http://www.cinemalogue.com/2006/02/14/brokeback-interview/

Their comments on the Cassie scenes:

MW: For what purpose did you expand the role of Cassie (Linda Cardellini), and what part did she play in Ennis’ relationship to the women in his life?

DO: Cassie somewhat exemplifies Ennis’s continual denial of his emotional makeup, and his attempts to have what he believed was a “normal” relationship with a woman. After his and Jack’s final confrontation about Mexico, Ennis realizes that it is Jack he truly loves, and he simply cannot continue in his attempts at a relationship with Cassie, thus her confronting him in the diner about his whereabouts and her frustrations and painful realization that she’s not “the one.”


I know its kinda dumb to disagree with the actual SCRIPT-WRITER, but I have never shied away from being called "dumb" before  ;), so here goes:

I didn't see the Ennis - Cassie thing, as some posters here did, as a sign that Ennis was finally able to accept that its Jack he actually loves, or was on the verge  of agreeing to a life with Jack.
To me, the Cassie thing contributed to Ennis's tightening knot of despair. He was unable to lead a "normal" life with Cassie ( a young, pretty, and quite possibly a kindhearted girl) , AS WELL AS  unable  to chose life with Jack, so he was stuck. Poor,lonely, and spiraling downward.
If anything - he looked depressed, to me.

I  believe that Ennis finally came to fully realize how much he actually loved Jack, only after Jack had died, which, to me, solidifies the tragedy of this film.

Offline doggedstrength

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Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
« Reply #63 on: February 16, 2006, 01:42:17 AM »
And another thing:

A new interview with LARRY McMURTRY and DIANA OSSANA: http://www.cinemalogue.com/2006/02/14/brokeback-interview/

Their comments on the Cassie scenes:

MW: For what purpose did you expand the role of Cassie (Linda Cardellini), and what part did she play in Ennis’ relationship to the women in his life?

DO: Cassie somewhat exemplifies Ennis’s continual denial of his emotional makeup, and his attempts to have what he believed was a “normal” relationship with a woman. After his and Jack’s final confrontation about Mexico, Ennis realizes that it is Jack he truly loves, and he simply cannot continue in his attempts at a relationship with Cassie, thus her confronting him in the diner about his whereabouts and her frustrations and painful realization that she’s not “the one.”


I know its kinda dumb to disagree with the actual SCRIPT-WRITER, but I have never shied away from being called "dumb" before  ;), so here goes:

I didn't see the Ennis - Cassie thing, as some posters here did, as a sign that Ennis was finally able to accept that its Jack he actually loves, or was on the verge  of agreeing to a life with Jack.
To me, the Cassie thing contributed to Ennis's tightening knot of despair. He was unable to lead a "normal" life with Cassie ( a young, pretty, and quite possibly a kindhearted girl) , AS WELL AS  unable  to chose life with Jack, so he was stuck. Poor,lonely, and spiraling downward.
If anything - he looked depressed, to me.

I  believe that Ennis finally came to fully realize how much he actually loved Jack, only after Jack had died, which, to me, solidifies the tragedy of this film.


i agree with this post; i, too, am reluctant to disagree with the screenwriter, but ennis isn't able to fully commit to anyone, ensuring his isolation and loneliness.  we tend to think that passion wouldn't seek out and overwhelm a taciturn, self-sufficient man like ennis; but that's precisely what it does, which is what makes the story so brilliant.  you could say that jack's death, perversely, jolts ennis back to life -- painful as life is; by visiting jack's parents, agreeing to attend his daughter's wedding as well as making certain that his daughter's fiance loves her, ennis at least begins to acknowledge that he's not an island.  "jack, i swear . . . " could mean, partly, "jack, i swear, if i'd been as fully alive at our last meeting as i am now, i'd never have let you go."  i don't think the matter is quite as cut and dried as ossana seems to be stating it:   "normal" love vs. loving jack.  and by seeking "normal" love ennis is "denying" his "emotional makeup" -- as though a person's emotional makeup can be reduced to a stance, "gay"(?).  emotional makeup is fluid.  ennis isn't really saying a categorical "no" to any option in life; but he can't fully say "yes" to anyone either.  his emotional makeup, like most people's, spans a continuum.  jack drew ennis into the deeper end of the pool, as it were, than cassie did -- or, to acknowledge the accurate portion of ossana's point, than cassie likely ever could have.  but ennis' tragedy is that even jack's love wasn't enough to pull him out of his tormented self:  a neglected child grown up to be a reined-in, sometimes violent, man.  that's the gnawing source of ennis' regret.  not even jack's love made him live as fully as he might have.  and it's not until  jack dies that he realizes that going on with jack, committing to jack, could have pulled him through and moved him up into more love, more light, more hope.  but his fear won out.  fear beat love.  and "loving" cassie instead of jack would not have healed ennis' ingrown unease, which he realizes.  that's why he can't respond to cassie, seems to be actually cruel to her, over his unfinished slice of apple pie -- what an apt symbol.
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Offline freshcutgrass

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Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
« Reply #64 on: February 16, 2006, 05:14:53 PM »
Ok...after seeing the film a zillion times (I actually have a DVD copy), I have discovered this to be THE pivital scene in the movie, and where "my" true meaning and lesson to the story originates (although I realize there are many things to glean from the film).  I would never had gotten it in the first few viewings, as there are too many other elements to tear your attention away, and too much emotional shit to clear out of your head first.   (well, for me anyway, as this movie hits people in different places at different times)

I'm refering to the pie-eating scene of course.

Before I get into it, I have to preface that I really don't feel too sorry for Cassie.  Not that I don't feel for her pain, as she was genuinely hurt.  But the fact that she didn't see the plain-as-day warning signs that Ennis was one pile of damaged goods from start to finish...she let herself get set up when any sane person would have see a million red flags before letting themselves get that involved.  It's not like she was vulnerable and taken advantage of....she walked into it, even when the door kept slamming her in the face...at some time you gotta take the hint.


Now....Before Cassie enters the picture, there's Ennis, sitting there picking away at the pie.  He's not just the usual sullen Ennis we always know....it's far worse than that.  I don't know how much time has passed between then and he and Jack's last parting.  And we know that was basically the "breakup".  He's endured all he can...it's obvious he has hit the bottom of the barrel of dispair.  He's spent all his life fighting these demons, and you can only internalize it so long.

When Cassie sits down and confronts him, he barely achknowledges her presence...his same zombie-like state remains unchanged.  We know Ennis has hit rock bottom, because he does not act like Ennis, who would never initiate unkindness or disprespect to a women (it's always yes ma'am, no ma'am)...especially to one he knows he has treated badly. 

But what does he say to her...."well good for you"...an uncalled for and VERY hurtful comment, given the conversation.  His torment has ripped any of compassion left out of his soul.

When Cassie delivers her final words to him and leaves the diner, he looks out into space....he has finally been delivered the fatal blow.  He realizes all the running and hiding is over...there's nowhere left to run or hide....he just can't fight any more.  He finally has to face his demons. 

The next scene shows him walking out of the post office...there's a bounce in his step...he's not the same dejected soul we saw earlier.  He looks happier and more contented than we have ever seen him.

Why would this be?  Well, because he has faced his fears and decided to do something about it.  This time, it is HE that sends the post card to Jack, with the hopefull message about Nov 7, the same kind of message Jack used to send to him all those years that must have excited him upon getting, pretending their last sorrow-filled parting didn't happen.

He probably went to the post office every day, anticipating Jacks "YOU BET" reply, knowing very well in his heart that Jack would always be waiting for him to come round.  It's the one thing he knows with certainty in his life.

But the bounce in his step comes to an abrupt hault.  We didn't need to see the post card...we already knew.



It's too late.


I immedietly flash back to where Jack is racing down the highway singing with glee after getting news of Ennis's divorce, in anticipation of the wonderful future he imagines with Ennis, only to return down the same road rejected and heart-broken a few hours later.



Just as he thought he had licked his demons, Ennis realizes that was nothing compared to the pain he must now endure.

But rather than return to the empty shell of a person he once was, he begins the long road to recovery.  He faces Jack's wife and the details of his death...tries to honour his life...faces Jack's parents...doesn't hide from the truth he and Jack's mother share...lets himself feel his emotions when confronted with the shirts...respects, rather than lashes out at jack's cruel father ...

...And decides to make the best of what he does have left in his life, the other person in his life who has always reached out for his love, but was usually disappointed...his eldest daughter.  You saw the way she asked him to come to the wedding, and reacting in a way that she already knew the answer...it hurt her to ask, because she already anticipated it to be no, and initially was right.  But Ennis saw what was at stake this time, the happiest day in his daughter's life, and he wanted to be part of it.

The look of surprise and joy that came over her face let you know a new bond has been created.







Anyway....that's what I have managed to glean from it...maybe I'm just crazy.  But I knew the first time I saw the film in the theatre, that I felt something very uplifting, but was unable to put my finger on it at the time....my emotions were pretty much shredded.  Only after seeing it more, and going through various stages of dealing with the whole thing in various stages, did it become clear.

I got the message that if we let things prevent us from facing our real feelings, we will simply run out of time.  Because life is soooooo ridiculously short.

Ennis may never experience what he had with Jack ever agian (or maybe he will), but I'm sure he is going to find happiness wherever he can with the rest of his life.






 




 

Offline 909dot

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Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
« Reply #65 on: February 17, 2006, 01:00:26 PM »
And another thing:

A new interview with LARRY McMURTRY and DIANA OSSANA: http://www.cinemalogue.com/2006/02/14/brokeback-interview/

Their comments on the Cassie scenes:

MW: For what purpose did you expand the role of Cassie (Linda Cardellini), and what part did she play in Ennis? relationship to the women in his life?

DO: Cassie somewhat exemplifies Ennis?s continual denial of his emotional makeup, and his attempts to have what he believed was a ?normal? relationship with a woman. After his and Jack?s final confrontation about Mexico, Ennis realizes that it is Jack he truly loves, and he simply cannot continue in his attempts at a relationship with Cassie, thus her confronting him in the diner about his whereabouts and her frustrations and painful realization that she?s not ?the one.?


I know its kinda dumb to disagree with the actual SCRIPT-WRITER, but I have never shied away from being called "dumb" before  ;), so here goes:

I didn't see the Ennis - Cassie thing, as some posters here did, as a sign that Ennis was finally able to accept that its Jack he actually loves, or was on the verge  of agreeing to a life with Jack.
To me, the Cassie thing contributed to Ennis's tightening knot of despair. He was unable to lead a "normal" life with Cassie ( a young, pretty, and quite possibly a kindhearted girl) , AS WELL AS  unable  to chose life with Jack, so he was stuck. Poor,lonely, and spiraling downward.
If anything - he looked depressed, to me.

I  believe that Ennis finally came to fully realize how much he actually loved Jack, only after Jack had died, which, to me, solidifies the tragedy of this film.


i agree with this post; i, too, am reluctant to disagree with the screenwriter, but ennis isn't able to fully commit to anyone, ensuring his isolation and loneliness.  we tend to think that passion wouldn't seek out and overwhelm a taciturn, self-sufficient man like ennis; but that's precisely what it does, which is what makes the story so brilliant.  you could say that jack's death, perversely, jolts ennis back to life -- painful as life is; by visiting jack's parents, agreeing to attend his daughter's wedding as well as making certain that his daughter's fiance loves her, ennis at least begins to acknowledge that he's not an island.  "jack, i swear . . . " could mean, partly, "jack, i swear, if i'd been as fully alive at our last meeting as i am now, i'd never have let you go."  i don't think the matter is quite as cut and dried as ossana seems to be stating it:   "normal" love vs. loving jack.  and by seeking "normal" love ennis is "denying" his "emotional makeup" -- as though a person's emotional makeup can be reduced to a stance, "gay"(?).  emotional makeup is fluid.  ennis isn't really saying a categorical "no" to any option in life; but he can't fully say "yes" to anyone either.  his emotional makeup, like most people's, spans a continuum.  jack drew ennis into the deeper end of the pool, as it were, than cassie did -- or, to acknowledge the accurate portion of ossana's point, than cassie likely ever could have.  but ennis' tragedy is that even jack's love wasn't enough to pull him out of his tormented self:  a neglected child grown up to be a reined-in, sometimes violent, man.  that's the gnawing source of ennis' regret.  not even jack's love made him live as fully as he might have.  and it's not until  jack dies that he realizes that going on with jack, committing to jack, could have pulled him through and moved him up into more love, more light, more hope.  but his fear won out.  fear beat love.  and "loving" cassie instead of jack would not have healed ennis' ingrown unease, which he realizes.  that's why he can't respond to cassie, seems to be actually cruel to her, over his unfinished slice of apple pie -- what an apt symbol.

I don't know...I think Cassie's effect on Ennis is much stronger than just "continuing the knot of despair"...I think the writers put her in there to make a definite point, not to bang us over the head with the same... I happen to agree with the writers...Ennis could never be happy with this vivacious beautiful girl because he was in love with Jack, I think his "I'm sorry" to her speaks volumes...and as far as his emotional make up, lets not forget what the movie is about, its a love story between two men...Ive read strange reviewers and postings that say oh, its not a gay love story...well, yes it is. and I think to gloss over that fact is to miss the point of even Annie writing the story. What ever you want to call it, Ennis was in love with Jack...they are both men...in todays lexicon thats a gay relationship...to refer to his "emotional makeup as a stance,"gay?" is like saying it was a choice he made, and we all know thats not true...he was indeed saying a categorical no to Cassie in the dinner. Ennis said yes to Jack, in his own way, but not the way Jack wanted it to be said,... tragedy indeed.
"maybe you should get outa there...move someplace different...maybe Texas."

Offline valkyrie911

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Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
« Reply #66 on: February 17, 2006, 03:36:57 PM »
I'm refering to the pie-eating scene of course.

Now....Before Cassie enters the picture, there's Ennis, sitting there picking away at the pie.  He's not just the usual sullen Ennis we always know....it's far worse than that.  I don't know how much time has passed between then and he and Jack's last parting.  And we know that was basically the "breakup".  He's endured all he can...it's obvious he has hit the bottom of the barrel of dispair.  He's spent all his life fighting these demons, and you can only internalize it so long.
 

Thank YOU! Finally someone agrees with me that it was a breakup. I mean really, Ennis said " I can't stand it anymore', Jake has his little goodbye dream sequence-what about the screne did not say goodbye?

I think what the Cassie character did was give Ennis a kick in the ass that he really needed to see when she said "Girls don't fall in love with fun, Ennis Del Mar" that maybe boys don't necessarily fall in love with t & a either. I liked Cassie. She was a little naive and needy and wanted someone who was just out of her reach. Shoot I could be Cassie. If it weren't for her walking in with some cowboy she seemed to be "settling" with instead of Ennis whom she loved, Ennis would have stayed right where he was eating that lousy pie and he would have never even of had the comfort of knowing that he and Jack were truly meant for each other, even if destiny had denied them final hapiness.
"True love is like seeing ghosts. We all talk about it, but few of us have ever seen one."--Francois de Rochefoucauld, 1613-1680

Offline Rob.

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Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
« Reply #67 on: February 17, 2006, 04:20:13 PM »
  Freshcutgrass.....after seeing it multiple times, that's pretty much my conclusion as well!

  Now, if only Ennis couldn't have come to that conclusion BEFORE the last trip  ;)

  But then, we all wouldn't be having these wonderful conversations would we!

  Rob
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downloaded1

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Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
« Reply #68 on: February 17, 2006, 08:31:06 PM »
Was Cassies's male friend Carl, from the Village People?????

                    ;D

Offline freshcutgrass

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Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
« Reply #69 on: February 17, 2006, 08:36:29 PM »
Now, as for the "breakup"....I wouldn't call it that in the usual "official" sense, as I doubt they would sit around discussing it like metrosexuals.  I get the impression Ennis probably just got in his truck and left without much to say, right after the collapse we witnessed.

And it was quite a fight...some pretty final things were said on both sides.  I wouldn't call it an official breakup, and I don't see them saying to each other that they are going to stop seeing each other...but it is clear the relationship has changed...and not for the good.  We can pretty much see that written on Jack's face as he watches Ennis's truck drive away, right after his flashback to when it was "perfect".

As for their corresponding...I don't think there was any after that last meeting.  I think Ennis's note to him regarding Nov 7 was the only correspondence they had since their last meeting.  And since that never got to him, he was not corresponding with anyone.  I think he contacted Jack about November to show he still wanted to see him, by using their last "intended" meeting, which was November, to show it.  Like I said, Ennis is not the type to articulate his feelings...he uses gestures like that instead.

And I think it was a long time since the last meeting.  It was either early or late winter....there was snow on the mountain...they were wearing parkas..." gonna snow tonight fer sure".

The clincher is revealed later, when Ennis is at jack's parent's house.  The father reveals Jack's plans to move up to their place with the "other guy", who has now replaced Ennis.  Jack would not do that if he didn't feel it was over with Ennis.  He might have screwed around on Ennis to fullfill his sexual needs...but would never make those "nesting" plans.

And Jack's father said it was "this spring" that jack mentioned about moving up with the "other" guy.

That would have placed it not long after their last meeting.  I think it's clear that in Jack's mind that it was over, or he never would have made such plans.

That's why I believe it was a defacto breakup.  I just don't think it was ever official, in the sense that they discussed it like most people do.  Jack just figured they would never see each other again, which is why he moved on with his life with someone else.


But Ennis never knew that until the father revealed it. That's another heartbreaking part...learning that Jack had finally given up on him, and he had a new "Ennis" in his life, and never knowing that Ennis had a change of heart.  You saw the look on his face when the father recounted Jack's plans about "licking the ranch into shape".  He had an almost proud smile on his face.  It turned to stone when the father mentioned the "other" guy.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2006, 09:09:40 PM by peteinportland »

Offline doggedstrength

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Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
« Reply #70 on: February 18, 2006, 05:27:09 AM »
And another thing:

A new interview with LARRY McMURTRY and DIANA OSSANA: http://www.cinemalogue.com/2006/02/14/brokeback-interview/

Their comments on the Cassie scenes:

MW: For what purpose did you expand the role of Cassie (Linda Cardellini), and what part did she play in Ennis? relationship to the women in his life?

DO: Cassie somewhat exemplifies Ennis?s continual denial of his emotional makeup, and his attempts to have what he believed was a ?normal? relationship with a woman. After his and Jack?s final confrontation about Mexico, Ennis realizes that it is Jack he truly loves, and he simply cannot continue in his attempts at a relationship with Cassie, thus her confronting him in the diner about his whereabouts and her frustrations and painful realization that she?s not ?the one.?


I know its kinda dumb to disagree with the actual SCRIPT-WRITER, but I have never shied away from being called "dumb" before  ;), so here goes:

I didn't see the Ennis - Cassie thing, as some posters here did, as a sign that Ennis was finally able to accept that its Jack he actually loves, or was on the verge  of agreeing to a life with Jack.
To me, the Cassie thing contributed to Ennis's tightening knot of despair. He was unable to lead a "normal" life with Cassie ( a young, pretty, and quite possibly a kindhearted girl) , AS WELL AS  unable  to chose life with Jack, so he was stuck. Poor,lonely, and spiraling downward.
If anything - he looked depressed, to me.

I  believe that Ennis finally came to fully realize how much he actually loved Jack, only after Jack had died, which, to me, solidifies the tragedy of this film.


i agree with this post; i, too, am reluctant to disagree with the screenwriter, but ennis isn't able to fully commit to anyone, ensuring his isolation and loneliness.  we tend to think that passion wouldn't seek out and overwhelm a taciturn, self-sufficient man like ennis; but that's precisely what it does, which is what makes the story so brilliant.  you could say that jack's death, perversely, jolts ennis back to life -- painful as life is; by visiting jack's parents, agreeing to attend his daughter's wedding as well as making certain that his daughter's fiance loves her, ennis at least begins to acknowledge that he's not an island.  "jack, i swear . . . " could mean, partly, "jack, i swear, if i'd been as fully alive at our last meeting as i am now, i'd never have let you go."  i don't think the matter is quite as cut and dried as ossana seems to be stating it:   "normal" love vs. loving jack.  and by seeking "normal" love ennis is "denying" his "emotional makeup" -- as though a person's emotional makeup can be reduced to a stance, "gay"(?).  emotional makeup is fluid.  ennis isn't really saying a categorical "no" to any option in life; but he can't fully say "yes" to anyone either.  his emotional makeup, like most people's, spans a continuum.  jack drew ennis into the deeper end of the pool, as it were, than cassie did -- or, to acknowledge the accurate portion of ossana's point, than cassie likely ever could have.  but ennis' tragedy is that even jack's love wasn't enough to pull him out of his tormented self:  a neglected child grown up to be a reined-in, sometimes violent, man.  that's the gnawing source of ennis' regret.  not even jack's love made him live as fully as he might have.  and it's not until  jack dies that he realizes that going on with jack, committing to jack, could have pulled him through and moved him up into more love, more light, more hope.  but his fear won out.  fear beat love.  and "loving" cassie instead of jack would not have healed ennis' ingrown unease, which he realizes.  that's why he can't respond to cassie, seems to be actually cruel to her, over his unfinished slice of apple pie -- what an apt symbol.

I don't know...I think Cassie's effect on Ennis is much stronger than just "continuing the knot of despair"...I think the writers put her in there to make a definite point, not to bang us over the head with the same... I happen to agree with the writers...Ennis could never be happy with this vivacious beautiful girl because he was in love with Jack, I think his "I'm sorry" to her speaks volumes...and as far as his emotional make up, lets not forget what the movie is about, its a love story between two men...Ive read strange reviewers and postings that say oh, its not a gay love story...well, yes it is. and I think to gloss over that fact is to miss the point of even Annie writing the story. What ever you want to call it, Ennis was in love with Jack...they are both men...in todays lexicon thats a gay relationship...to refer to his "emotional makeup as a stance,"gay?" is like saying it was a choice he made, and we all know thats not true...he was indeed saying a categorical no to Cassie in the dinner. Ennis said yes to Jack, in his own way, but not the way Jack wanted it to be said,... tragedy indeed.

i gotta push back.  indeed ennis is gay and indeed he loves jack.  both those facts are in conflict, not equally blissful -- they don't equal happiness piled on top of happiness.  i wouldn't question the wonder and beauty of a man loving a man, because i have loved a man, more than one.  but ennis definitely does struggle with such loving and, i agree, he nonetheless keeps on loving jack.  no argument there.  my point is that given ennis' reluctant acceptance of both facts about himself -- "i'm gay and i love this particular man" -- the combination still wasn't enough to make him commit to living his life with jack.  that was my point, and this is ennis' enduring tragedy.  if he'd commited to jack, jack would still be alive.  i agree that the cassie scene shows conclusively that he couldn't have committed any longer to a woman.  but he still couldn't fully commit to jack, either.  to repeat:  it's only jack's death the jolts ennis into seeing what he had -- and has now lost.  and -- i'm again drawing on my own experience -- one of the cussed truths of life is that we never know what we have until we've lost it.  this movie says that more forcefully, without any watering down, than any american movie i can think of.  the fact that the lovers are men makes the movie extraordinary.
The great thing in this world is not so much where we stand as in what direction we are moving.

--Oliver Wendell Holmes

Offline valkyrie911

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Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
« Reply #71 on: February 18, 2006, 09:12:03 AM »
Now, as for the "breakup"....I wouldn't call it that in the usual "official" sense, as I doubt they would sit around discussing it like metrosexuals.  I get the impression Ennis probably just got in his truck and left without much to say, right after the collapse we witnessed.

And it was quite a fight...some pretty final things were said on both sides.  I wouldn't call it an official breakup, and I don't see them saying to each other that they are going to stop seeing each other...but it is clear the relationship has changed...and not for the good.  We can pretty much see that written on Jack's face as he watches Ennis's truck drive away, right after his flashback to when it was "perfect".

As for their corresponding...I don't think there was any after that last meeting.  I think Ennis's note to him regarding Nov 7 was the only correspondence they had since their last meeting.  And since that never got to him, he was not corresponding with anyone.  I think he contacted Jack about November to show he still wanted to see him, by using their last "intended" meeting, which was November, to show it.  Like I said, Ennis is not the type to articulate his feelings...he uses gestures like that instead.

And I think it was a long time since the last meeting.  It was either early or late winter....there was snow on the mountain...they were wearing parkas..." gonna snow tonight fer sure".

The clincher is revealed later, when Ennis is at jack's parent's house.  The father reveals Jack's plans to move up to their place with the "other guy", who has now replaced Ennis.  Jack would not do that if he didn't feel it was over with Ennis.  He might have screwed around on Ennis to fullfill his sexual needs...but would never make those "nesting" plans.

And Jack's father said it was "this spring" that jack mentioned about moving up with the "other" guy.

That would have placed it not long after their last meeting.  I think it's clear that in Jack's mind that it was over, or he never would have made such plans.

That's why I believe it was a defacto breakup.  I just don't think it was ever official, in the sense that they discussed it like most people do.  Jack just figured they would never see each other again, which is why he moved on with his life with someone else.


But Ennis never knew that until the father revealed it. That's another heartbreaking part...learning that Jack had finally given up on him, and he had a new "Ennis" in his life, and never knowing that Ennis had a change of heart.  You saw the look on his face when the father recounted Jack's plans about "licking the ranch into shape".  He had an almost proud smile on his face.  It turned to stone when the father mentioned the "other" guy.


EXACTLY!I do think the difference is that without the Cassie scene Ennis may have never bothered to send that postcard about November 7 to Jack anyway, and neither of them would have made contact, at least for a while.
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Offline ingmarnicebbmt

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Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
« Reply #72 on: February 18, 2006, 11:01:17 AM »
Freshcutgrass and valkyrie911, I feel relieved that you are sharing my opinion about the last postcard. It has been stated by me before (and objected to by other posters!) that this was in fact the first postcard he ever wrote to Jack.
Before it was always Jack who wrote, it seemed to me.
But now it was different: Ennis felt bad (after the "breakup" scene, after "LEARNING" from Cassie that noone falls in love with fun, but instead with him ENNIS as a person - so did Jack, and I think he wanted to apologize somehow that he couldn't make it for the August meeting and show his joyful anticipation for Nov): three good reasons to take the initiative to write.

But I disagree with you both that someone new (Randall? who knows?) had entered Jacks's life and replaced Ennis. I do believe that Jack was very, very sad after their last meeting and the dozy embrace memory, devastated even, but I think that John Twist's story about the new guy was just made up in order to humiliate Ennis. Or Jack mentioned it casually to his Dad, without giving any details.

IMHO, Ennis was the love of Jack's life. If only their last meeting had turned out differently, in a slightly more optimistic manner, well then they could both still be alive and thriving. It wasn't meant to be.
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Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
« Reply #73 on: February 18, 2006, 02:56:45 PM »
Freshcutgrass and valkyrie911, I feel relieved that you are sharing my opinion about the last postcard. It has been stated by me before (and objected to by other posters!) that this was in fact the first postcard he ever wrote to Jack.
Before it was always Jack who wrote, it seemed to me.
But now it was different: Ennis felt bad (after the "breakup" scene, after "LEARNING" from Cassie that noone falls in love with fun, but instead with him ENNIS as a person - so did Jack, and I think he wanted to apologize somehow that he couldn't make it for the August meeting and show his joyful anticipation for Nov): three good reasons to take the initiative to write.

But I disagree with you both that someone new (Randall? who knows?) had entered Jacks's life and replaced Ennis. I do believe that Jack was very, very sad after their last meeting and the dozy embrace memory, devastated even, but I think that John Twist's story about the new guy was just made up in order to humiliate Ennis. Or Jack mentioned it casually to his Dad, without giving any details.

IMHO, Ennis was the love of Jack's life. If only their last meeting had turned out differently, in a slightly more optimistic manner, well then they could both still be alive and thriving. It wasn't meant to be.

I don't think that Jack "moved on" at all. At least not in any real sense of what that would mean to anyone really in love. I think that Jack probably made a lot of small talk when he was at home with his parents, since that was the kind of guy he was, and he probably mentioned he had a neighbor who was getting divorced..etc...etc... 

I just hate thinking about this whole part, the what if? I mean, can we even imagine an Ennis who doesn't shuffle along like he's carrying the weight of Brokeback Mountain on his shoulders year after year. I wish Alma Jr. told her father it was okay sooner because I don't think she had any problem with who her father was.
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Re: Scene:Ennis and Cassie
« Reply #74 on: February 18, 2006, 03:05:38 PM »
"I think that John Twist's story about the new guy was just made up in order to humiliate Ennis. "


I think that's far-fetched.  You are giving far too much sophistication to a simple rural guy.  I don't think there is anything about him other than what you see...an ignorant, simple, selfish, bitter man who treated his son with contempt in life...and in death.  There's no way he "made up" that story...it would be too coincidental with the reality...his "made-up" story involving the next door ranch hand...and there actually being one?  No way.





"Or Jack mentioned it casually to his Dad, without giving any details."

Oh...I agree it was mentioned, otherwise he wouldn't be telling the story.  And of course he wouldn't have give any "details"....they had a very cold relationship...he's not going to sit down and talk about his feelings towards Ennis or Randall.  Jack was always serious about this scenario, as it would have been his only realistic solution to living out his life the way he wanted to....it's not like moving to San Fran or Grennwich Village was something a person of Jack's life would even know about, lest think of.  He would have put it to his father in whatever way he could to facilitate that.

How much Jack's father suspected Jack's being gay is uncertain, but it certainly wasn't from any heart-to-heart conversations between them.  And I doubt the mother would have said anything either.  In fact, while it's obvious the mother is "aware", I'm not totally convinced it was from direct conversations about it with her son...maybe it was...maybe it was being a "mother".  Who knows.

While I'm sure no-one could replace Ennis in Jack's mind, he still had the kind of will to carry on ond be happy....The love may not be the excact same thing, but we can all love again, and it was obvious Jack wanted to love and be loved on his terms.  Jack would have realized that after the last meeting with Ennis, he could go on torturing himself over something he could never have, or finally move on....Jack after all, was always a doer.  I'm amazed he wasted 20 years trying to convince Ennis to come on board...he finally gave in to the fact it was never going to work.

And that would be most people's reaction anyway...we've all had the "big love", but how many of us would be willing to carry the torch forever for the one we love, but will never have?  At some point, we deal and move on.