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Author Topic: Non believers who love Brokeback Mountain  (Read 392030 times)

Offline mountain boy

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Re: Non believers who love Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #105 on: June 30, 2006, 12:21:09 PM »

Offline Doug2017

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Re: Non believers who love Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #106 on: June 30, 2006, 12:55:07 PM »

And here is another parallel. Most people think of Judas Iscariot as a demon who betrayed Christ. But if you look at Jesus and his disciples as revolutionaries bent on overthrowing Rome in the name of God, he doesn't come off so bad. Jesus tells him to go to what he must do. So, it's my opinion that the whole thing was planned by Jesus & Judas in hopes that the arrest of the popular rabbi would rouse the oppressed against the oppressor. Maybe Jesus never really planned to die or thought the Romans would not carry out his execution for fear of what the Jewish population would do. But they underestimated Pontius Pilate one of the most brutal executioners Rome had at the time. Perhaps that explains the quote"My god why have you forsaken me."?

Have you seen the new documents that recently came up that showed Judas just this way?  That he was not the evil his is accused of, but a loyal follower who did what he was told?  Seems Jesus did not have the inside straight on that action. Would a all knowing, all powerful god, make this mistake? That is exactly why he cries out "My god why have you forsaken me?" He sees his mistake at the last moment, when it is too late. IMHO

Then the nagging question for me is why does an all powerful, all knowing god, all loving god, NEED to murder his own son to forgive sins?  Could he not do what us pathetic humans do, forgive in spite of the crime against us?  When someone does us wrong, even if they get no justice, it only harms ourselves to hold that hatred.  The best is to forgive, but not forget, and move on. 

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Anyway, Bin laden released a video today praising Al zarqwai, even though it is my understanding, they never really liked each other. But only the cause is important to zealots and Laden is praising him now to rally the faithful. Perhaps the disciples did the same with resurrection stories? To keep the cause going?  I'm just asking. It seems possible to me.

Seems likely to me as well, especially if you take into account the most important part of the bible the resurrection, and you can not reconcile the stories. Would you not think that an all powerful god would have made sure at least that part was absolutely correct, being the bedrock of the faith? 

And what about the passage where god says he is both good and evil?  Could that not mean then the devil is the other side of his personality? Would that not explain why natural evil, when taken from the perspective of an all loving god, does not save the believers, and condemn the non-believers? Wild fires, floods, hurricanes destroy the lives of the faithful just as much as the unfaithful. Seems to me there should be a difference if an intervening, loving god was present.

What better tool to keep the cause going than having a martyred hero, who gives you kudos after you are dead?  Why worry about dying then? Why worry about who gets killed in the cause then? Why worry about killing those who are damned anyway then? They will be awarded later for their loyalty, if they deserve it.  I guess it all just looks like a perfect way to have war eternal.

Thanks again for a well thought out post, Jason
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Offline jasonwv

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Re: Non believers who love Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #107 on: June 30, 2006, 01:36:19 PM »
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What better tool to keep the cause going than having a martyred hero, who gives you kudos after you are dead?  Why worry about dying then? Why worry about who gets killed in the cause then? Why worry about killing those who are damned anyway then? They will be awarded later for their loyalty, if they deserve it.  I guess it all just looks like a perfect way to have war eternal.


Exactly! And if I were God I sure would make sure that resurrection stories if  it happened would be written right away and not sixty to seventy years after the event!
                      The greatest fear we have is death and religion plays right into that fear. The great reward for believing is some sort of of eternal life. That's one of the most effective control mechanisms ever invented by man. But here is what  Idon't get. If you are a believer and think you are going to heaven, why give a damn about what others believe. it's just more room in heaven for you! I think religion is all about control.
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Offline Doug2017

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Re: Non believers who love Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #108 on: June 30, 2006, 02:12:07 PM »
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What better tool to keep the cause going than having a martyred hero, who gives you kudos after you are dead?  Why worry about dying then? Why worry about who gets killed in the cause then? Why worry about killing those who are damned anyway then? They will be awarded later for their loyalty, if they deserve it.  I guess it all just looks like a perfect way to have war eternal.


Exactly! And if I were God I sure would make sure that resurrection stories if  it happened would be written right away and not sixty to seventy years after the event!
                      The greatest fear we have is death and religion plays right into that fear. The great reward for believing is some sort of of eternal life. That's one of the most effective control mechanisms ever invented by man. But here is what  Idon't get. If you are a believer and think you are going to heaven, why give a damn about what others believe. it's just more room in heaven for you! I think religion is all about control.

Ahh, but that is the genus of this!  The reason they worry about so many others is they are told to.  They are told if they love, then you must pull in others, save them, even if you must make them suicidal with misery. Ever read the book "But Lord they are gay"? That woman in her zest to save more or less murdered the young man who committed suicide over the stress she put on him, of course, killing himself he was sent to hell anyway. 

You can not cheat and get in early by killing yourself, you go to hell for that, you can not help someone else die, even if they are in dire need of release, no you must suffer as long as possible, and make sure others do as well, to be eligible for heaven.  Even the pope was quoted saying "suffering is good", when god lets a tornado destroy their home, kill family members, it is all good, because suffering is good. They are trained not to question the obvious, much less the well hidden. They are trained to never question why god is never responsible for evil, for natural disasters he could stop, if he did not create them in the first place.  Yet, their mantra is personal responsibility...

I saw a storm chaser show the other day, they showed the tornado, then went into the devastation to find an old woman tell them "god saved me, it was a miracle" and at the same time a young lady from next door comes up carrying her dead baby.  What gall it takes to think that a loving god would save her old wrinkled ass, thinking it was more worthy of saving and murder an innocent baby, by doing nothing.   Absolutely it is about control. IMHO  Anyway... I am rambling... sorry about that.
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Offline jasonwv

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Re: Non believers who love Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #109 on: June 30, 2006, 02:29:22 PM »
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You can not cheat and get in early by killing yourself, you go to hell for that, you can not help someone else die, even if they are in dire need of release, no you must suffer as long as possible, and make sure others do as well, to be eligible for heaven.


So here is the irony of the above view on suicide. let's for a moment believe that Jesus was the Son Of God with all the power to heel and see the future. Christians believe Jesus knew he was to be sacrificed for our sins so willingly met his death. Sounds like suicide to me! If  I willingly put myself in a position where the outcome is my certain death that's suicide. Ever hear of suicide by cop? where someone points a gun at policemen hoping to get shot? suicide by cross? I'm just saying.
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Offline Doug2017

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Re: Non believers who love Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #110 on: June 30, 2006, 02:51:46 PM »
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You can not cheat and get in early by killing yourself, you go to hell for that, you can not help someone else die, even if they are in dire need of release, no you must suffer as long as possible, and make sure others do as well, to be eligible for heaven.


So here is the irony of the above view on suicide. let's for a moment believe that Jesus was the Son Of God with all the power to heel and see the future. Christians believe Jesus knew he was to be sacrificed for our sins so willingly met his death. Sounds like suicide to me! If  I willingly put myself in a position where the outcome is my certain death that's suicide. Ever hear of suicide by cop? where someone points a gun at policemen hoping to get shot? suicide by cross? I'm just saying.

Excellent point, that I have not thought of before!  But would it be suicide if you knew you was going to rise from the dead? No harm no fowl? What was the point of the exercise anyway? Is this a place where the power of tragedy was used before BBM?
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Offline Vic

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Re: Non believers who love Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #111 on: June 30, 2006, 03:31:01 PM »
I have seriously difficulty in believing anyone to be a "son of god" or even his prophet, for that matter. I think Jezus, Mohammed and Buddha were some of the best humanity has yet brought forth, and in that respect I can believe, understand and even follow many of their teachings.

But I have even more difficulty in believing the corruption of their teachings as put forth by the organized religions of today, such as Christianity and Islam. In this respect only Buddha's life seems to have been recorded truthfully as the discrepancies in the telling differ very little from one scholar to the next. And it is also the only religion where it is accepted that anyone can become a buddha (boddhisatva) as he is the only one of the three to have remained fully human. Buddha himself may be called "divine" but that is in reference to his enlightenment, not his affiliation with anything godlike. And no, I'm not a buddhist.

Neither do I believe that suicide is a sin. If you don't have the right to take your own life, no one has. So if governments can impose death penalties, suicide and euthanasia should certainly be allowed. But then I don't believe in an afterlife either so I need not fear death other than the reluctance of leaving life.

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Offline Doug2017

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Re: Non believers who love Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #112 on: June 30, 2006, 04:13:58 PM »
I have seriously difficulty in believing anyone to be a "son of god" or even his prophet, for that matter. I think Jezus, Mohammed and Buddha were some of the best humanity has yet brought forth, and in that respect I can believe, understand and even follow many of their teachings.

I do think that is where so many people get taken, they take it that if there is truth, or reality, in part of it, then it all must be truth, not realizing the very best lies are mostly true.  It is much easier to get people to swallow the poison if it is mostly candy, yet even a little poison mixed with anything is still poison. 

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But I have even more difficulty in believing the corruption of their teachings as put forth by the organized religions of today, such as Christianity and Islam. In this respect only Buddha's life seems to have been recorded truthfully as the discrepancies in the telling differ very little from one scholar to the next. And it is also the only religion where it is accepted that anyone can become a buddha (boddhisatva) as he is the only one of the three to have remained fully human. Buddha himself may be called "divine" but that is in reference to his enlightenment, not his affiliation with anything godlike. And no, I'm not a buddhist.

I fail here, sorry, I do not know much about Buddha.  However, to me the more they align with known reality, the closer to truth they are.

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Neither do I believe that suicide is a sin. If you don't have the right to take your own life, no one has. So if governments can impose death penalties, suicide and euthanasia should certainly be allowed. But then I don't believe in an afterlife either so I need not fear death other than the reluctance of leaving life.

Well put! The way I have always looked at this is this way: If I own my body then I should have the right to use it as I see fit, even if that means me destroying it.  If I do not own my body, then I do not have true freedom, period.  I contend there should not be laws to protect the stupid from themselves, because those same laws prevent me from freedom and personal responsibility.  What may be stupid for one person, may not be so for another.

I do not fear death at all, it is just non-existence, and at some point it might be a real relief.  Until that time I want to live as long and healthy as possible.  Too bad religion has held us back for so long, I really think we would have figured out biological immortality by now if we was not fighting wars, and the illusion that one must die on cue to go to an afterlife.   
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Offline Vic

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Re: Non believers who love Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #113 on: June 30, 2006, 04:42:29 PM »
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I do not fear death at all, it is just non-existence, and at some point it might be a real relief.

I like the idea of non-existence. What's the point of a limited life span on earth only to have some weird eternity where we all dress in white, have wings, sing hymns et al? I find the whole idea of heaven and hell too ridiculous to consider. Which is one of the reasons I gave up early on organized religion.

I was brought up Roman Catholic but, because of life experiences of both my parents, they had already lost their faith in the Catholic Church long before I came along. They never forced us though we did go to Catholic primary schools. I didn't like the nuns and brothers very much. Corporeal punishment is wasted on me! I'm incorrigible!

 ;D
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Offline Doug2017

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Re: Non believers who love Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #114 on: June 30, 2006, 08:33:46 PM »
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I do not fear death at all, it is just non-existence, and at some point it might be a real relief.

I like the idea of non-existence. What's the point of a limited life span on earth only to have some weird eternity where we all dress in white, have wings, sing hymns et al? I find the whole idea of heaven and hell too ridiculous to consider. Which is one of the reasons I gave up early on organized religion.

Can you imagine eternity in heaven with Pat Robertson, Jerry Farwell, and Oral Roberts?  That would be hell.  Or in Hell with Hitler, Phil Pot, Ben Laden, and Saddam?  That would be hell as well.  Nope, non-existence is better me thinks.   

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I was brought up Roman Catholic but, because of life experiences of both my parents, they had already lost their faith in the Catholic Church long before I came along. They never forced us though we did go to Catholic primary schools. I didn't like the nuns and brothers very much. Corporeal punishment is wasted on me! I'm incorrigible!

Hmmm... good to know.  Well, there goes my spanking fantasy.... damn...   Only kidding!

I was raised Methodist, but Mother was Roman Catholic at one time. Her parents was real upset when she left the church, oh the nasty things my Grandpa called my folks... My first insight how "loving" these people can be.   Sunday school was mandatory, but it was insane to me.  They kept telling me that there was this little door in my heart, that someone was knocking at it and I was to let him in.  WTF? Oh, and this is the murdered guy from 2,000 years ago...  And the Easter bunny lays colored chicken eggs... yeah, riiiigghttt...  What are you people sniffin' again? Santa Clause went up in flames soon after that too, you just can not trust those lying adults... <wink>
Doug
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Offline jasonwv

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Re: Non believers who love Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #115 on: July 01, 2006, 07:04:10 AM »
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If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple." (


 Hi Doug! Hope you are having a good Saturday! The above quote again convinces me that Jesus was more a revolutionary than anything else. I interpret this as meaning any Jew be it your mother father wife etc. who complies with the laws of our oppressors(Rome) is not worthy and  if you yourself are satisfied with such a life you are not worthy to be my disciple.  It's really fascinating when you think of what's happening in Iraq today. I mean can you not imagine the insurgency in Iraq thinking and saying a similar thing?  And like Jesus, their fuel against us is religion.
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Offline Doug2017

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Re: Non believers who love Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #116 on: July 01, 2006, 09:22:12 AM »
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If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple." (


 Hi Doug! Hope you are having a good Saturday!

It is a very nice Saturday so far.  Got the garden hoed again, and everything is looking pretty good.  Can not wait until the cucumbers begin to produce.

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The above quote again convinces me that Jesus was more a revolutionary than anything else. I interpret this as meaning any Jew be it your mother father wife etc. who complies with the laws of our oppressors(Rome) is not worthy and  if you yourself are satisfied with such a life you are not worthy to be my disciple. 

Now that is a very interesting interpretation, but it seems to have much more to it than what is in the passage.  I do not see anything about Roman rule, but whats more that convinces me that this is not the case, that is "and his own life also".  If someone was wanting to be a disciple, then he would have to want to be against the Roman rule in the first place, separating him from the rest of the family.  Reading more in context, this is Jesus having a tantrum, more like a spoiled child, which, in my book makes him unworthy of worship.

Of course, I would have to be convinced there was a Jesus in the first place.  Then there is the problem of an all powerful, all knowing god, not being able to state anything in a clear, concise manner, it all has to be interpreted, which opens the doors for corruption.

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It's really fascinating when you think of what's happening in Iraq today. I mean can you not imagine the insurgency in Iraq thinking and saying a similar thing?  And like Jesus, their fuel against us is religion.

Absolutely, this war has its roots, on both sides, in religion, just like the majority of wars.  They have no problem sacrificing the innocent to meet their ends, just like many here do not have any problems sacrificing the innocent to meet their ends.  Both claim religious righteousness.  Allah is on their side, God is on ours, and the people caught in the middle bleed and die just the same... is it not strange that when a bomb blows up, it does not matter if you are from Kansas or Iraq, which god you trust, it tears and burns your flesh leaving you just as dead? Of what good are these gods if they are not going do anything? What is the difference in outcome if both gods exist or no gods exist?  None that I can see... IMHO Sorry for the rant...
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Offline Vic

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Re: Non believers who love Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #117 on: July 01, 2006, 09:40:24 AM »
I do think that is where so many people get taken, they take it that if there is truth, or reality, in part of it, then it all must be truth, not realizing the very best lies are mostly true.  It is much easier to get people to swallow the poison if it is mostly candy, yet even a little poison mixed with anything is still poison.

Absolutely. But then organized religion, like their bedfellows governments, are well aware that most people prefer to leave the thinking to others. The RC church has a reason why they use the words "shepherd" and "flock" and so on. Baaaaah.

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I fail here, sorry, I do not know much about Buddha.  However, to me the more they align with known reality, the closer to truth they are.

It might interest you, as he was all about the best humans can be. His twelve guidelines basically run across any religion or belief.

Buddhism is approx. 500 years older than Christianity, 1300 older than Islam. They have gone through all the cycles these other religions are still going through. After spending two years in Thailand, and having a number of interesting conversations with some of the buddhist monks there, I did come to appreciate buddhism much more. Not that I didn't see them as another organized religion, they are, i.e. (selfish old) men wielding power over the masses. You'd be surprised how fat you can get by being a beggar monk... :)

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I do not fear death at all, it is just non-existence, and at some point it might be a real relief.  Until that time I want to live as long and healthy as possible. 

Yes, that is more or less the way I see it. Liberation at last!

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Too bad religion has held us back for so long, I really think we would have figured out biological immortality by now if we was not fighting wars, and the illusion that one must die on cue to go to an afterlife.

Quite unbelievable, yes. Well, there's no hope for me, then. And, as you said before, why would I want to join a belief system where I, as a homosexual, am already condemned to hell? I'm perfectly capable of getting there on my own, thanks.

Vic
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Offline Doug2017

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Re: Non believers who love Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #118 on: July 01, 2006, 03:34:33 PM »

Absolutely. But then organized religion, like their bedfellows governments, are well aware that most people prefer to leave the thinking to others. The RC church has a reason why they use the words "shepherd" and "flock" and so on. Baaaaah.

Yep, exactly.  That is why I call them "sheeple". 

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I fail here, sorry, I do not know much about Buddha.  However, to me the more they align with known reality, the closer to truth they are.

It might interest you, as he was all about the best humans can be. His twelve guidelines basically run across any religion or belief.

Buddhism is approx. 500 years older than Christianity, 1300 older than Islam. They have gone through all the cycles these other religions are still going through. After spending two years in Thailand, and having a number of interesting conversations with some of the buddhist monks there, I did come to appreciate buddhism much more. Not that I didn't see them as another organized religion, they are, i.e. (selfish old) men wielding power over the masses. You'd be surprised how fat you can get by being a beggar monk... :)

Interesting.  Yes, it always seems to come down to getting something for nothing, at the expense of the innocent.

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I do not fear death at all, it is just non-existence, and at some point it might be a real relief.  Until that time I want to live as long and healthy as possible. 

Yes, that is more or less the way I see it. Liberation at last!

As things are now, these bodies are going to wear out, disease, age is going to take it's price. At that point non-existence will be welcome.

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Too bad religion has held us back for so long, I really think we would have figured out biological immortality by now if we was not fighting wars, and the illusion that one must die on cue to go to an afterlife.

Quite unbelievable, yes. Well, there's no hope for me, then. And, as you said before, why would I want to join a belief system where I, as a homosexual, am already condemned to hell? I'm perfectly capable of getting there on my own, thanks.

Since do not believe it exists, I am not concerned about it.  As for no hope, I think there is always hope as long one is still taking in breath, though it might be diminishing...

Have you ever heard of Neo Tech?  Until they went off the deep end, they was a very interesting group. 

Of course, I am sure you have heard of Ayn Rand as well?  I like a lot of her ideas, though a couple of them do not ring true to me. 

Anyway, a couple of points open for discussion.  You also said you had a lot of quotes from me you wanted to discuss.  When you get time, I am open to any and all.

Take Care my Friend,
Doug
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Offline Vic

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Re: Non believers who love Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #119 on: July 01, 2006, 03:44:28 PM »
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You also said you had a lot of quotes from me you wanted to discuss.  When you get time, I am open to any and all.

I was hoping to get to that before you brought it up!
;D

(first a couple of caps)

8)
Later,
Vic

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