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Author Topic: Non believers who love Brokeback Mountain  (Read 397276 times)

Offline quijote

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Re: Non believers who love Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #45 on: June 01, 2006, 05:04:36 PM »
Doug,

Lordy, if I actually answered your questions it would take over a thousand pages.  Every single question you have asked has had volumes written about them.  I've been reading for at least 30 years.

I understand that what you know about Christian thought comes from the noisiest and most dogmatic sects of Christianity.  Free-thinking Christians speak up the best they can; however, they don't make for a good sensational story like the extremists do.  Jimmy Carter is a Southern Baptist who does his best to speak out on behalf of another kind of Christianity and the hate mail he gets is vicious.  Many Christians speak but they don't wrap themselves in sanctimony and aren't arrogant enough to believe they speak for anyone but themselves, let alone God.  They don't flaunt the Christianity part.  They are humble in their statements.  They believe in nuance which doesn't make a whole lot of black-white, easy to get impact.  Those who aren't right wringers do more Christian acting than talking as well.  There are finally groups that are raising money to more effectively organize and get an alternative Christian point of view into mainstream dialogue.  Good luck to thoughtful people anywhere on any issue getting a hearing in the media, though.

The only way to cull out the true Christian message is to read scholars who are experts on the historical period, who have studied the Christian texts closely, and who understand the language, culture and theologies of the time.  There are volumes written also about scripture, who the experts think wrote what and why. It's the same thing you'd do if you wanted to understand string theory.  You read about quantum physics, theories on space-time and dimensions, and you must understand fundamental scientific principles.  To get to the original Christian message, use the scientific method.  Read and connect the dots.

As for Truth, materialists believe in one way only to ascertain truth.  Truth is facts.  The rest of us intuit the limitations in that even if we don't understand the philosophical underpinnings of our argument.  We live in a world of paradox and we see that there is no way to scientifically describe a concept which is not a concept because its reality is beyond the ability of words to convey.  The human brain and reason have their limits.  Just read any scientist who is a devout believer in the use of the scientific method as a way to describe reality yet who is also a believer.   There are many books which contain the debates between advocates of materialism and those who oppose them.  As for myth and its function and how it reveals Truth, you need to at a minimum read Jung and one of his main disciples, Joseph Campbell.

I personally believe in the reality of a mystical experience which channels a truth to us that the scientific method and reason can never reveal.  It's the source of our yearning for something unnamed.  When a scientist tells me all living things are made up of stardust, I hear something more than the material, finite aspect of the statement.  I believe in a transcendent reality, sometimes.  I believe that Jesus wasn't the only "son" of God.  To explain how I ended up here is to have to explain how I connected the dots reading scientific journal articles on anything and everything, archaeology, history, mythology, biblical scholarship, philosophy, theology, mystical writings and biographies, books on art and the artistic experience, on art and the sacred, poetry, literature, ad infinitum.

Every answer I could give you must be explained in terms of reams of context, or it would explain nothing and would be misleading.  Sorry about that.  Luckily, we can talk about Brokeback from a non-believer's point of view pretty clearly, precisely and easily.  So, thanks for welcoming my misled, misdirected and lost self.
 

Offline Doug2017

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Re: Non believers who love Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #46 on: June 01, 2006, 07:51:13 PM »
Doug,

Lordy, if I actually answered your questions it would take over a thousand pages.  Every single question you have asked has had volumes written about them.  I've been reading for at least 30 years.

Understand.  So, there is not some rather simple minded criteria for what is valid in the bible and what is not?  God man, I would have thought it would have been as simple as what fits the loving God image... the rest being junk... but if you say so...

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I understand that what you know about Christian thought comes from the noisiest and most dogmatic sects of Christianity.  Free-thinking Christians speak up the best they can; however, they don't make for a good sensational story like the extremists do.  Jimmy Carter is a Southern Baptist who does his best to speak out on behalf of another kind of Christianity and the hate mail he gets is vicious.  Many Christians speak but they don't wrap themselves in sanctimony and aren't arrogant enough to believe they speak for anyone but themselves, let alone God.  They don't flaunt the Christianity part.  They are humble in their statements.  They believe in nuance which doesn't make a whole lot of black-white, easy to get impact.  Those who aren't right wringers do more Christian acting than talking as well.  There are finally groups that are raising money to more effectively organize and get an alternative Christian point of view into mainstream dialogue.  Good luck to thoughtful people anywhere on any issue getting a hearing in the media, though.

I see, so the more vicious, hate mailing Christians are going to be the voice of the religion, such a shame, I do understand.  Try getting the viewpoint of thoughtful  atheist people on any issue a hearing in the media, impossible.  Every time they have to bring in the most radical Right winger they can find who just makes such a noise that any semblance of reason is impossible.  I do think we have more in common than at odds, at least I hope so...

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The only way to cull out the true Christian message is to read scholars who are experts on the historical period, who have studied the Christian texts closely, and who understand the language, culture and theologies of the time.  There are volumes written also about scripture, who the experts think wrote what and why.


Does it strike you in the least bit odd that a God who made the universe can not speak direct, plainly, and coherently to the people he loves?  Is it odd that one has to have his word interpreted for your consumption?  Is not this way loaded with the possibility of manipulation by the authority figures?

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It's the same thing you'd do if you wanted to understand string theory.  You read about quantum physics, theories on space-time and dimensions, and you must understand fundamental scientific principles. 


To get the majority of it without having to understand the complex math behind it all you have to do is watch one of the videos put out about it.  One set here:  http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/elegant/program.html  However, one thing about string theory it is far from complete and is only interesting at the time, and it is does not impact my life if it is right or wrong.  I am comfortable saying I do know how it works at that extremely small level. 

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To get to the original Christian message, use the scientific method.  Read and connect the dots.

When I do that I get just the opposite of what you appear to have gotten.  The scientific method does not allow for contradicton, and call something complete or valid.

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As for Truth, materialists believe in one way only to ascertain truth.  Truth is facts.  The rest of us intuit the limitations in that even if we don't understand the philosophical underpinnings of our argument.  We live in a world of paradox and we see that there is no way to scientifically describe a concept which is not a concept because its reality is beyond the ability of words to convey. 

How can a paradox exist, does that not require something to exist and not exist at the same?  The only things that fit that description is imagination, fantasy, make believe... It exists in the subjective reality, but does not exist in the objective reality. 

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The human brain and reason have their limits.  Just read any scientist who is a devout believer in the use of the scientific method as a way to describe reality yet who is also a believer.   There are many books which contain the debates between advocates of materialism and those who oppose them.  As for myth and its function and how it reveals Truth, you need to at a minimum read Jung and one of his main disciples, Joseph Campbell.

I have read some of Joseph Cambell, what he describes are mythical stores that produce a feeling, an image.  Like the one of the lotus blossom blooming out of gods head, on the blossom existence, and there are infinite levels of gods and lotus blossoms, like the sands of the beach.  Is that not called imagination?  Is fantasy the in all of all?  Is not this the primitive mind struggling to answer the unknown, with nothing to work with? Seems so to me.  How can ancient stories be taken as real, when the writers did not even understand the basics of reality?  When lightening, wind and hail was the wrath of a god, rather the effect of a strong moisture laden updraft?  Why do we run our lives by stories of the ancients in only our spiritual lives, when we do not do the same thing with our health, security, homes, travel and every other single point of our lives?  Why are we living in high rises, instead of mud huts,  not bleeding our sick to drain demons, etc. and yet we relegate our spiritual lives to stories written some 2,000 years ago by very ignorant people?  Does that make sense? 

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I personally believe in the reality of a mystical experience which channels a truth to us that the scientific method and reason can never reveal.  It's the source of our yearning for something unnamed. 


I have no problem with the reality of a mystical experience, that is a subjective reality.  In subjective reality anything is possible, hypnosis is an effect of subjective reality, belief is all powerful, however, when one thinks that subjective reality creates objective reality, there becomes a real problem.  In subjective reality one can fly, one can be divine, one can be and do anything his mind will allow him to believe.  Objective reality is the existence field separate from subjective reality of the individual.  Subjective reality can only effect the body of the experiencer, and his actions.  Therefore it is just plain wrong to force others to accept ones subjective reality as objective reality.  To your credit, You have not done this here to clarify.  Subjective reality has to believed before it can be experienced, Objective reality does not have to be believed before it is experienced. 

 
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When a scientist tells me all living things are made up of stardust, I hear something more than the material, finite aspect of the statement.  I believe in a transcendent reality, sometimes.  I believe that Jesus wasn't the only "son" of God. 

When a scientist tells me all living things are made up of stardust, that is a wondrous thing to me. I understand how that stars have to die to make the heaver elements.  It is amazing to me that cause and effect of nature got it all together to create a world of life.  To me Jesus is either not the son of God or we all are.  The only God I can relate to is Nature, but that God is not conscious, can not care if I exist or not, but I am a child of that God.  My consciousness is the greatest value of all to me, without it I do not exist, and therefore, I have to assume that everyone elses is to them as well.  Human consciousness is the highest value.

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To explain how I ended up here is to have to explain how I connected the dots reading scientific journal articles on anything and everything, archaeology, history, mythology, biblical scholarship, philosophy, theology, mystical writings and biographies, books on art and the artistic experience, on art and the sacred, poetry, literature, ad infinitum.

Understand, you are well studied.  So, can I safely assume that the 95% who claim to be Christians actually have done this as well, or are they just faking it with a wink and a nod?  My aunt can not turn on a computer, or understand the simplest of things, yet she is a staunch Christian.  How does that work?  I can see that there is no way to understand the mystically inclined mind, I am greatly saddened by this.  It looks like I will forever be on the outside looking in.  Oh well... if God needs some faggot to fry for enternity, I guess I have nothing better to do...

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Every answer I could give you must be explained in terms of reams of context, or it would explain nothing and would be misleading.  Sorry about that. 


So, I have to take that to mean that God actually does not love us all, nor does he expect to save many because of the extreme learning curve required to understand.  Seems rather odd for a God of love. 

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Luckily, we can talk about Brokeback from a non-believer's point of view pretty clearly, precisely and easily.  So, thanks for welcoming my misled, misdirected and lost self.

You are always welcome. 

Sadly, there is not much to talk about from a non-believers point of view.  What is just is, from there it is a simple conversation.

Well, stick around, we might think of something interesting...
Reality contains no contradictions, for how can something be and not be at the same time? Visit Us on the NON-BELIEVERS Thread.

Offline Zuraffo

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Re: Non believers who love Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #47 on: June 02, 2006, 02:32:04 AM »
Does Spiritualist consider as a non-believer? ;)

Offline Doug2017

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Re: Non believers who love Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #48 on: June 02, 2006, 06:42:44 AM »
Does Spiritualist consider as a non-believer? ;)

Hi Welcome!

Here all are welcome.  That depends on who you ask, and what you mean by spiritualist. 

Two broad versions come to mind.  The one where every rock, tree, bush and everything has a human like spirit hidden within it, and the other is where the person is calling the awe, that feeling of inspiration of nature, spirit, like when one sees the grand canyon for the first time, or is in a setting like the mountains in BBM.

The first in my book is a believer, the second a non-believer.  However, my intent on opening this thread was to get the believer and non-believer to common ground so that we could stop hurting each other, and maybe, just maybe, learn to understand each other a little better, and treat each other a little better.

Reality contains no contradictions, for how can something be and not be at the same time? Visit Us on the NON-BELIEVERS Thread.

Offline Ellen (tellyouwhat)

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Re: Non believers who love Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #49 on: June 02, 2006, 08:08:38 AM »
Hi Doug, me again.

I think I understand now the need for this thread on a Brokeback Mountain forum -- the subject matter begs the question, how can gay issues fit into a society that continues to claim "In God We Trust?"

I have read quijote's posts with interest, and have to say I also am one who can actually get a spiritual experience out of a Catholic Mass (having been raised that way).  I'm married to a scientist and profound non-believer but he attends Unitarian services with me, agreeing that he gets something out of it (course every time God is mentioned in our service the ministers apologize to the atheists in church and explain god is a symbolic concept).

Here is my ultimate concern-- it seems that humanity, in an anthropological sense, can never stamp out man's yearning for the spiritual.  That is why IMO atheists need to recognize this yearning in a large percentage of the population.  It is like so many of our impulses, well -- like the sex drive for example.  At a certain level it's great -- even necessary.  At a hyped up level it becomes distracting and harmful.  It is one of the things we need to learn to live with, in other words, and (I always come to this conclusion) somehow try to harness for good. 

But George Bush (the most convenient example I can think of) has harnessed religious energy for evil.  (subverting democracy and a war on the side)

I have read E.O. Wilson's Consilience (a few years ago) and it seems he made a similar (slightly grudging) point.
sometimes I think life is just a rodeo the trick is to ride and make it 'til the bell --john fogerty

Offline Doug2017

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Re: Non believers who love Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #50 on: June 02, 2006, 10:14:47 AM »
Hi Doug, me again.

I think I understand now the need for this thread on a Brokeback Mountain forum -- the subject matter begs the question, how can gay issues fit into a society that continues to claim "In God We Trust?"

Actually, while that is a good question, that is not the main one I focus on. The one I want to get answered is how do people who believe and people who do not believe treat each other with respect and dignity?  How do we come to the common ground so we see a loving human, instead of a believer or a non-believer standing before us?   How do we get to a place where real freedom of religion is respected and understood?  In my book there is a great need for this.  There are so many "a" points that we can get side tracked on, but "the" point is treating each other like we are the highest value, but that is rather hard when the majority think they are not the highest value, and others have even less value than them.

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I have read quijote's posts with interest, and have to say I also am one who can actually get a spiritual experience out of a Catholic Mass (having been raised that way).  I'm married to a scientist and profound non-believer but he attends Unitarian services with me, agreeing that he gets something out of it (course every time God is mentioned in our service the ministers apologize to the atheists in church and explain god is a symbolic concept).

That is my belief as well, that god is a symbolic concept, some of it wrong in this day and age. It is my belief that the entire bible is a book , whose content was picked out of hundreds of available articles to achieve a desired outcome, control, way back when knowledge of the world was limited to gods and demons for everything not understood.   That is why a "loving" god is vengeful and violent, who came up with this convoluted idea of murdering his son to atone for the violent hate he feels for mankind, and still to this day requires one to jump through nonsensical hoops to be saved.  He had to be a violent, vengeful god to explain the floods, tornadoes, earthquakes, and hurricanes of old, it had to be a mad god it could not have been the nature of cause and effect of a physical world, that was not understood...  He has to be irrational to explain the chaos of the natural world we live in.  Just my humble opinion.

I understand your spiritual experience.  I, too, when I was part of MCC, no other church, felt a warm, comfortable, loving feeling while in a groug of happy singing people who I felt kin to.  I am sure that most take that as spiritual, or even the presence of god, however, I am sure it is our genetic social need being met that triggers that subjective feeling.  Just as sex, holding, compassion, understanding in one person triggers deep love.  We are genetically programmed by evolution to survive just like any other creature. That is why the baby creatures never need meet another of it's kind to know how to sound and act, genetic coding, instinct to some, god to others. 

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Here is my ultimate concern-- it seems that humanity, in an anthropological sense, can never stamp out man's yearning for the spiritual.  That is why IMO atheists need to recognize this yearning in a large percentage of the population. 

Only a fool of an atheist would suggest stamping out the "spiritual".  My problem with spiritual is that I am quite sure it is misunderstood as something it is not.  Feelings, triggered by whatever, are not spiritual, they are subjective responses of the individual.  I have yet to hear of a spiritual event that was not such.  Does that mean it was not real? Yes, and no... and here is where people get lost.  It is real in the subjective reality, and not real in the objective reality, the vast majority have no concept of the difference, which is profound testament to the failure of our schools.  Objective reality, existence, is so vast, so big and so small we can not grasp it.  Cause and effect so out of our realm of experience that we can not experience it, so we have to make metaphors, analogies to get a grasp of it.  That internal map of the objective reality is our subjective reality, a pale representation of the original, but the only reality we can experience.  However, the objective reality is just existence as it is.  The matter and energy.  Our jobs should be to create our subjective reality to match as closely as possible the objective reality.  Since something cann't exist and not exist at the same time, contradiction does not exist in objective reality, our key to telling if our internal subjective reality is off, and needing correcting.  We have to understand that when we experience a contradiction, no matter how minor, we have one or a combination of the following: a.) not enough information, b.) a bad premise or c.) a physical perception not getting it right (fairly rare).  No, the believer is not going to even consider any of the above it is just too threatening to their internal map, which will fight for its life like no other, this is the main reason why it is so hard to quit drugs, stop smoking, etc, our internal subjective reality has these as benefical to us, not the harmful to us as they actually are. 

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Of course, that It is like so many of our impulses, well -- like the sex drive for example.  At a certain level it's great -- even necessary.  At a hyped up level it becomes distracting and harmful.  It is one of the things we need to learn to live with, in other words, and (I always come to this conclusion) somehow try to harness for good. [/quote}

Exactly.  To learn to live with, we need to understand the underlying causes and effects, we need to let go of the blame, and work on the balance.  The vast majority of things in this world are not evil, but out of balance.  There is great wisdom in the statement of "moderation in all things". 

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But George Bush (the most convenient example I can think of) has harnessed religious energy for evil.  (subverting democracy and a war on the side)


He, Pat Roberts, Jerry Farwell and Fred Phelps are my first thoughts.  Religion in modernation and compassion tempered with reason can be a great thing, the problem is that the current trend is to the extreme.

I have read E.O. Wilson's Consilience (a few years ago) and it seems he made a similar (slightly grudging) point.

I have not read this, so have nothing to add.

Thanks, take care
Reality contains no contradictions, for how can something be and not be at the same time? Visit Us on the NON-BELIEVERS Thread.

Offline Zadoc

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Re: Non believers who love Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #51 on: June 03, 2006, 07:43:27 AM »

Does it strike you in the least bit odd that a God who made the universe can not speak direct, plainly, and coherently to the people he loves?  Is it odd that one has to have his word interpreted for your consumption?  Is not this way loaded with the possibility of manipulation by the authority figures?

  To begin with I need to restate that I am a theist, with reservations. Classically, a theist is one who believes in a Supreme Being as creator of the Universe without rejecting revelation.  Your statement above resonates quite harmoniously with my belief, i.e., that down through history the 'interpreters', the 'middlemen' if you will, have indeed manipulated peoples for various reasons to the advantage of their hierarchies; without question History bears this fact out.
  As a theist I understand how our realities have their origin inextricably grounded on that Supreme Being.
In contradistinction to the majority of my contemporaries, I see no use in continuing to refer to that Being anthropomorphically as 'He'.  Henceforth, I will refer to that Being as The Creator.
  I might add judging by what you've said in the following quote, that you may profess to be an athiest but as I see it you certainly are one with a 'deist' tendency.  For you state:  "The only God I can relate to is Nature, but that God is not conscious, cannot care if I exist, but I am a child of that God".

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I have no problem with the reality of a mystical experience, that is a subjective reality.  In subjective reality anything is possible, hypnosis is an effect of subjective reality, belief is all powerful, however, when one thinks that subjective reality creates objective reality, there becomes a real problem.  In subjective reality one can fly, one can be divine, one can be and do anything his mind will allow him to believe.  Objective reality is the existence field separate from subjective reality of the individual.  Subjective reality can only effect the body of the experiencer, and his actions.  Therefore it is just plain wrong to force others to accept ones subjective reality as objective reality.  To your credit, You have not done this here to clarify.  Subjective reality has to believed before it can be experienced, Objective reality does not have to be believed before it is experienced. 

  I find your inclination to reduce 'reality' to an 'either/or' at times tedious and extremely limiting.
When I say I understand, it means I 'know'.  Now, if I 'understand' and thereby 'know' that everything about me is 'in fact' solidly based, grounded upon, and springs from the Creator, the source of all life, intelligence and spirit there is no subjectivity here, no 'belief', but true 'knowing'. 
  It seems somewhat audacious of you to continue to be dismissive of states of reality you have no experience of. 
 
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When a scientist tells me all living things are made up of stardust, that is a wondrous thing to me. I understand how that stars have to die to make the heaver elements.  It is amazing to me that cause and effect of nature got it all together to create a world of life.  To me Jesus is either not the son of God or we all are. 

  In the First Epistle of John 3:1 he states: "Behold what manner of Love God hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God".
  So I guess from at least that Christian's perspective, (an intimate of 'the Christ')....'we all are'.


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  I can see that there is no way to understand the mystically inclined mind, I am greatly saddened by this.  It looks like I will forever be on the outside looking in.  Oh well... if God needs some faggot to fry for enternity, I guess I have nothing better to do...


  That you are 'on the outside looking in' is merely an illusion based upon a decision you've made consciously.  It's quite possible that during the natural process of individuation, your 'ego', your 'self' as you know it, decided to fortify the protective emotional walls most if not all of us find necessary to erect around that 'self'.  Overdoing it, can lead to a sense of isloation.....being an outsider.
  I would suggest you examine your history with an eye to finding early incidents of abuse, sexual and/or emotional, that might have prompted this 'over fabrication'.
  That there might be a connection with a sense of personal guilt you've interiorized is suggested in the statement you make immediately following the one about being 'on the outside'.  You state:  "Oh well,
if God needs some faggot to fry for eternity, I guess I have nothing better to do"!
  This certainly is suggestive of some form of victimization.

  By the way my brother, I too am a faggot.

  Still ridin' shotgun next to you...
  Your ranch hand,
  Zadoc

Offline Doug2017

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Re: Non believers who love Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #52 on: June 03, 2006, 03:39:57 PM »

  To begin with I need to restate that I am a theist, with reservations. Classically, a theist is one who believes in a Supreme Being as creator of the Universe without rejecting revelation.  Your statement above resonates quite harmoniously with my belief, i.e., that down through history the 'interpreters', the 'middlemen' if you will, have indeed manipulated peoples for various reasons to the advantage of their hierarchies; without question History bears this fact out.

Thank You for acknowledging that, I appreciate it.  Now the question is by what criteria do you choose the parts to believe and not believe? When the religious community had it's revelation that gayness could be curied, why did you reject that, if the only criteria needed is revelation?  Do you accept revelation in any other parts of your life? Would you accept a revelation in say medicine, say the one where they thought they could cure gayness with electroshock therapy?  Looking for consistency here...  Of course you may be using a different meaning than I am, mine is "come them in a dream, or flash, or inspiration".


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As a theist I understand how our realities have their origin inextricably grounded on that Supreme Being.
In contradistinction to the majority of my contemporaries, I see no use in continuing to refer to that Being anthropomorphically as 'He'.  Henceforth, I will refer to that Being as The Creator.
  I might add judging by what you've said in the following quote, that you may profess to be an athiest but as I see it you certainly are one with a 'deist' tendency.  For you state:  "The only God I can relate to is Nature, but that God is not conscious, cannot care if I exist, but I am a child of that God".

Of course,I meant that in an metaphoric way, not in the actuality, the problem of using metaphors...  I have a great appreciation of the deist theology that the some of the forefathers used.  Their understanding was that if there was a god, he was long gone now, and we are on our own.  Given what little they understood about the world around them, that is quite an accomplishment. And I freely admit there is no way for me to prove there is no god, or there is one for that matter.  I have to assume there is not one, just as I assume there is not pink elephants on the moon.  Since statics show no evidence of god influence, since evil exists, since natural disaster and disease kills the believer at the same rate as the non-believer, I have to conclude a.) god does not want to intervene, which makes him evil, and not the Christian god or b.) god does not have the power to intervene, which makes him not the Christian god or c.) does not know of the event to intervene, which makes him not the Christian god or d.) he has taken off for another part of the universe, which makes not the Christian god, or e.) he does not exist.  I do not see any other possibilities for an all loving, all powerful, all knowing God as the Christians see it.  

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I find your inclination to reduce 'reality' to an 'either/or' at times tedious and extremely limiting.

Just as I find your inclination to expand "reality" to include the unproven and unknown as a factual to be tedious and extremely limiting, because nothing can be known with that model given that the law of identity is meaningless in it.  Without the law of identity there is not knowledge. There is the rub as they say...


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When I say I understand, it means I 'know'.  Now, if I 'understand' and thereby 'know' that everything about me is 'in fact' solidly based, grounded upon, and springs from the Creator, the source of all life, intelligence and spirit there is no subjectivity here, no 'belief', but true 'knowing'. 

Excellent! Then you should have no problem explaining to me in detail what lets you know this, what evidence you used, what weights you gave to what and why.  I know fire burns because of the pain, and blisters it causes for example, and I can demonstrate it.  Because anything factual, and known can be demonstrated, it may take some time, but it can be demonstrated, and one does not have to be a believer first.  What is the first valid premise you are going to start with?  Mine is existence exists, yours?  I can prove mine, can you yours?

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It seems somewhat audacious of you to continue to be dismissive of states of reality you have no experience of. 


Is that any more dismissive than dismissing that man came from a boil on god's leg theory of the Aboriginals?  Or that little aliens take humans away to stick probes up their butts?  Or pink elephants walk around on the moon?  It is not audacious until some valid evidence is presented.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.   Something tangible, something outside of subjective reality. Actaully, it seems to me audacious to insist that one accept, and punish if they don't, any of this without something to work with. Be that Christians or their version of God.  Would you accept the theory of atomic structure without the work done to show it?  I didn't.  I sure do not accept string theory in the state it is in at the time.
 
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In the First Epistle of John 3:1 he states: "Behold what manner of Love God hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God".
  So I guess from at least that Christian's perspective, (an intimate of 'the Christ')....'we all are'.

Then why do you  suppose that so many treat us other "christs" so badly?  May I ask why is this passage more valid and worthy of quoting than: "If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple." (Luke 14:26)  ?  Why does not anyone quote it, or address it?  Obviously you dismiss it as non-sense...  why?


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Me-  I can see that there is no way to understand the mystically inclined mind, I am greatly saddened by this.  It looks like I will forever be on the outside looking in.  Oh well... if God needs some faggot to fry for enternity, I guess I have nothing better to do...

You-  That you are 'on the outside looking in' is merely an illusion based upon a decision you've made consciously. 

You are right, I have made the conscious decision to only believe in things that have valid evidence of existence, especially things that are able to be used as weapons. How is that wrong?

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 It's quite possible that during the natural process of individuation, your 'ego', your 'self' as you know it, decided to fortify the protective emotional walls most if not all of us find necessary to erect around that 'self'.  Overdoing it, can lead to a sense of isloation.....being an outsider.
  I would suggest you examine your history with an eye to finding early incidents of abuse, sexual and/or emotional, that might have prompted this 'over fabrication'.


That is the one thing that BBM is really good at. Ok more about me if it will help you understand me...  

My earliest memory of emotional trauma was a nightmare that I had of my father chasing me to castrate me, I ran and ran, hiding behind rocks and trees, to finally awaken scared to death.  I am sure he could not figure out why for weeks I could not stand to be around him.  Of course, we had been castrating calves the day before. (contuined next post)
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Offline Doug2017

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Re: Non believers who love Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #53 on: June 03, 2006, 03:52:05 PM »


I used to have terrible nightmares, of death and destruction, of tornadoes.  Good tornadoes and bad.

One tornado formed in the east, I was running from it, I ran into a library, I could not find a place to take cover. So I ran out of the building, the tornado was closer now, trees where being chewed only a few hundred feet away, so scared, I ran into a grocery store. A guy named Rod was there, he took me by the hand running again down the street, the tornado black and angry closing in on us. We came to this old house with a set of steps leading up to the front door, there was no time, the shingles were beginning to peel.  Beside the steps was a deep window well, room enough for one of us, He told me to get in, he would find someplace else.  I crawled in, very tight, the ground was shaking... I saw Rod holding onto a tree nearby, then I heard him scream and knew he was dead.  The house above came flying apart, and boards fell on me, and the sand, was sifting in as the tornado ground above me, more sand, hard to breath.  After what seemed like minutes it was quiet, but I found myself buried in the sand no way to breath and I could not move too much weight above.  I died, blackness for eternity... then I woke up.   

Of drowning night after night, walking down a pier the water gently slapping the wood below, the pink and purples of the sun setting in the west, gentle cool breeze.  And of slipping on the slick moss, and falling into the bitter cold water, too cold to swim, holding my breath until the bubbles went up, seeing the top of the water getting farther and farther away, and the last bubble...  and then nothingness, blackness for an eternity, then waking up too frightened to sleep, night after night for years, dying over and over again.

Of being in an old warehouse, looking out the window needing to go, to get out there before it was too late...  My cousin, Randi, grabbing my hand and pulling me along almost faster than I could run.  Loosing my balance and falling on the hard pavement... to my left a large hill at the top a big steam roller slowly coming my way... Randi screaming at me to "get up, get up" . I was so scared, my movements so hard, and slow, she was pulling on me, and the roller was gathering speed, getting closer... she begging me to "get up", and then it hit me, killing me.  Blackness for an eternity, then waking up. 

I love watching clouds, a storm was rolling in from the west.  Big black angry clouds, I was standing near the farmhand tractor.  I could feel the hair on my head suddenly standing, and I knew that I was being targeted by a lightening bolt.  I dropped to the ground as fast as I could, but in the small puddles, I could see the flash coming, I was too late.  I was struck, the light so bright that no eye could stand to see it, of a thunder clap so loud no ears could have possibly withstood it, and dying, eternal blackness for an eternity,  just to wake up thinking I must be in a hospital I had a loud ringing in my ears and blue spots before my eyes for hours.  But I was home in my own bed.

Are you going to tell me that all this was real? Everythinng I knew at the time said it was... and yet, there was no evidence... besides the ringing in my ears and the big blue spots...  plenty of evidence for most it seems...

I seeked help, yeah religious, he told me I as holding my breath until I passed out, how he knew this I do not know, but he was not sure what the rest of it was, though he did say tornadoes are phallic objects... LOL!   He told me to believe in my guarden angel... The nightmares continued...  I was stabbed once... slow and painful death, blood everywhere, finally dying just outside my front door on the step.  After I died, I awake with a terrible side ache where the knife had went through... 

I remember my dreams just as if they happened to me yesterday, you?

It was years before the reality became known, I have sleep apnea, my oxygen levels get extremely low when I sleep, I was nearly dying every single night. I had to wake up to breath, hundreds of times a night. No wonder I dreamed of dying. The nightmares went away once the real problem was addressed.  See the difference between subjective reality and objective reality?

I also used to really believe that because I was so evil, being an abomination to god and all, that if I touched a bible I would burn, just like those vampires in the scary movies, you see I truly was a believer once...

I was also very traumatized by the blood test in actuality once, that our grade school said we had to have.  My blood type is different than that of all the rest of my family, so I was convinced I was adopted for the longest time, because I "knew" that parents of this blood type could not have a child of my blood type. I had just enough understanding to be dangerous. Besides such nice people could not have someone as evil as me, I compensated by being the very best little kid possible, maybe they would let me live with them anyway, if they ever found out...  It was college biology before I understood how it was possible for my blood type to be different than theirs.   This was all before I learned how to tell the difference between subjective reality and objective reality.  I am not talking out of my ass here, I do know what I am talking about.

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That there might be a connection with a sense of personal guilt you've interiorized is suggested in the statement you make immediately following the one about being 'on the outside'.  You state:  "Oh well,
if God needs some faggot to fry for eternity, I guess I have nothing better to do"!
This certainly is suggestive of some form of victimization.

So let me get this right, you do not feel like a victim when you see Fred Phelps with his sign of "God Hates Fags", knowing that about 12% of the population agrees with him?  You do not feel victimized when the congress is working on passing laws to prevent you from ever having a relationship accepted?  Well, I do, I feel damn victimized by this, and the god thingo.  I feel like I am being forced to live in a world that will never see me as the loving human being I am, all because the majority are so caught up in their little delusion of the god concept and can not separate subjective reality from objective reality. 

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By the way my brother, I too am a faggot.

Yep, and that is so very confusing to me. For the life of me, I can not see how a gay person can not see the contradictions when he, himself, is one, but be that as it may, it is good to have another faggot to talk to.

 
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Still ridin' shotgun next to you...
  Your ranch hand,
  Zadoc

Still here driving the team...

Time we stop this, while a big part of me wants to understand, I know from past experience that is not possible... and  that is not what will lead to understanding of each other.  We need to put the differences on the back burner, and explore the common ground.  Before I chase you way with my opinions...  we will have to do what all the rest of the world does, go the inane of simplicity... and supidity...

So your are a faggot...  What kind of men do you like?  Male I assume... LOL! 

While the type I think I like look more like Jack, Ennis in this picture has me...  Not sure why exactly, perhaps it is his deep brown eyes, they so remind me of my old love.  But I would not kick Jack out of bed for eating crackers as they say... <evil grin>

Sure dry here, I think this maybe one of the driest years I have ever seen, if we do not get some rain soon we are going to have quite a crop loss.  The neighbors are already selling down their cattle heard, and are starting to look for sources of hay just to get them by for the rest of the year. 

I got my garden put in this morning, can not wait for some fresh garden produce. Ummm...  I had to water overnight just to get the ground so I could get the tiller into it, man was it hard and dry.  I was thinking of putting up some pictures of my garden on the garden thread, but have not taken the time yet.  Do you garden? 

Out in the barn I have four cats that have now had their kittens, cute little things, I think there is 15 of them.  I will be knee deep in cats by fall if they all live, which they never do. 

Well, take care shotgun sidekick...

Is this what we really want our relationships to be like? 



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Offline Doug2017

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Re: Non believers who love Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #54 on: June 03, 2006, 08:38:28 PM »
A few more dreams, just to stop them spinning in head...

I had walked through the north grove on a mild May day, it was overcast but still bright.  Behind the north grove runs a road, and just to the west is an old cattle underpass made of railroad ties and lumber. 

As I was walking along I saw one little cloud begin to spin, and thought "a tornado"!  I ran to the cattle underpass hoping I could get there in time before the tornado hit. 

I was there for about ten minutes, all was quiet, I was wondering whatever happened to that tornado?   I peeked out, but could not see anything, so I stepped just a few steps, still could not see anything. Then there was this gentle tug at my shirt on my right shoulder, to my surprise it was the tornado, just a little thing looked like a rope hanging from the sky.  It seemed very friendly, even joyful in its movements and gentle tugging.  My fear left, and I walked out with it closely behind.  It was like an old friend, and was with me the whole afternoon, which was very pleasant. Then it was suddenly gone.

I awoke with a smile, and have never feared tornadoes since.

Another one...

I awoke to a very dark house, it was like the windows had all been covered in black.  Outside I could hear something, very faintly.   So, I stepped out onto the porch to find 10 or 12 tornadoes spinning in the yard.  Smooth quiet tornadoes of a white/gray color, about 3 feet in diameter each, spinning but standing perfectly still, all perfectly far apart only a few feet.  The Columns went up as far as the eye could see.  I was not afraid.  I walked up to one to touch it, it moved in waves, like it was ticklish or something, it made a single note of sound.  So I gently put both hands on it, it was smooth and it sang with a voice like a flute, very calming, very gentle.  I walked up to the next, it was the same, but the voice was just a little different.  I spent a few hours with them, and slowly they began to dissipate.  Then I awoke for real.

A real bad one...

It was the middle of the night, and there was a sound faintly like nails being pulling out of a stubborn board.  I stepped outside, the moon was high, you could see for miles, the air a little cool.   On the horizon I could just make out what looked like waves of water coming, strange for the flat prairie lands.  As they came the sound grew louder, the ground began to shake, the house squealed.  The waves were in the gound, an earthquake. I could see bigger ones coming, the next one knocked me down, the house crumbled behind me.  Then it looked like mountains coming, the noise was more than I could stand, then it began to rain and hail at the same time.  Now water was splashing over the high rolling hills, and I feared of drowning.  Grasping onto a big board, the ground suddenly opened up with deep cracks, and wedges of earth shot upward.  It was the end of the world, and it lasted all night long. Me struggling just to survive.  Finally, morning had come, the sun rose with pink glow on the horizon, which was all water now.  I feared I had lost my entire family, but as the water drained to the southeast, my family one by one came floating by safely on boards and broken trees, and we all had survived except my one aunt, she had died in the storm.   I awoke, late to go to class...

A good one...

I awoke about 1:30 am, at least according to the clock on the stand, it was very dark.  I love the stars, so thought, while I am up, I will step outside and see them. The air was warm, and strangely not a movement could be felt, it was like something was going to happen.  The lone cricket signing seemed almost hollow.   The moon was low in the east, and the stars where as big as saucers, so beautiful.  Then the stars began to move, like the universe was on the move.  The moon began to get bigger and bigger until it took up the entire sky.  I was shell shocked.  Then from the north Saturn moved in, it was big and oh so beautiful, how could this be?  There was comets shooting by, and other planets began to come in to eclipse the one before it. Mars, and Venus,  so close you felt you could touch them.  Other planets I had never seen before were also lining up.  I was so overjoyed, then the nebula came through it was awesome.  I felt so privileged to having seen this, and I was still so awestruck.  Then the morning sun began to fade them a little but you could still see them.  I was just so overjoyed, because I now knew that I would be able to space travel to these now close planets.   I awoke with a smile on my face, and joy all day long...

Of course, you know that if I had been alive 2,000 years ago and had wrote these dreams down, someone now would be interpreting them, and you would be looking for the secret meanings, trying to live your lives by their scared text.  Before some of you jump to any conclusions, yes I actually dreamed all of these, they are not made up stores at all, not embellished one bit. They are real experiences to me, just a real as sitting here and typing.  Does that mean they happened, of course not.
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Offline Zadoc

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Re: Non believers who love Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #55 on: June 04, 2006, 09:29:21 AM »

  To begin with I need to restate that I am a theist, with reservations. Classically, a theist is one who believes in a Supreme Being as creator of the Universe without rejecting revelation.  Your statement above resonates quite harmoniously with my belief, i.e., that down through history the 'interpreters', the 'middlemen' if you will, have indeed manipulated peoples for various reasons to the advantage of their hierarchies; without question History bears this fact out.
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Thank You for acknowledging that, I appreciate it.  Now the question is by what criteria do you choose the parts to believe and not believe? When the religious community had it's revelation that gayness could be curied, why did you reject that, if the only criteria needed is revelation?  Do you accept revelation in any other parts of your life? Would you accept a revelation in say medicine, say the one where they thought they could cure gayness with electroshock therapy?  Looking for consistency here...  Of course you may be using a different meaning than I am, mine is "come them in a dream, or flash, or inspiration".

  I suppose I should have elaborated on my opening statement, that I am a theist with reservations.
I do not consider myself a 'classic' theist because of my skepticism regarding 'revelation'.
By revelation I mean those incidents in the Bible that illustrate God/Man encounters where God 'speaks' to Man letting us know what its will is for us, i.e., 'divine' revelation.
Your references pertain to mundane affairs. 

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As a theist I understand how our realities have their origin inextricably grounded on that Supreme Being.
In contradistinction to the majority of my contemporaries, I see no use in continuing to refer to that Being anthropomorphically as 'He'.  Henceforth, I will refer to that Being as The Creator.
  I might add judging by what you've said in the following quote, that you may profess to be an athiest but as I see it you certainly are one with a 'deist' tendency.  For you state:  "The only God I can relate to is Nature, but that God is not conscious, cannot care if I exist, but I am a child of that God".

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   And I freely admit there is no way for me to prove there is no god, or there is one for that matter.  I have to assume there is not one.   Since statistics show no evidence of god influence, since evil exists, since natural disaster and disease kills the believer at the same rate as the non-believer, I have to conclude a.) god does not want to intervene, which makes him evil, and not the Christian god or b.) god does not have the power to intervene, which makes him not the Christian god or c.) does not know of the event to intervene, which makes him not the Christian god or d.) he has taken off for another part of the universe, which makes not the Christian god, or e.) he does not exist.  I do not see any other possibilities for an all loving, all powerful, all knowing God as the Christians see it.

  Statistics? What statistics? 
When you say 'evil exists' are you defining evil as disaster, calamity, woe, misery, suffering, sorrow etc.?  For you follow that statement by the terms 'natural disaster and disease'.
  There is a paternalism implicit in your views about the 'God' you assume does not exist, in point 'a.)', e.g., if 'big daddy' would only come home....he'd straighten this whole mess out, but he's out again drinkin' with his buddies; he doesn't give a damn about our troubles.........bad, very bad (evil) daddy!
In point 'b.)' you state: 'god does not have the power to intervene.'
   Why do you feel 'God' should intervene when it is within our own power to fight disease and predict natural disasters, e.g., volcanic eruptions, tsunamis, earthquakes etc.?  That we incline as a species to scientific research is the solution.  Problem is, we have not advanced enough as a species to reject our nationalistic passions that set us one against the other. Those atavistic tendencies devour so much of the monetary wealth of nations that is so desperately needed in areas of scientific research.
Thus the solution to our problems is clearly simple, we need no God to intevene.

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I find your inclination to reduce 'reality' to an 'either/or' at times tedious and extremely limiting.
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Just as I find your inclination to expand "reality" to include the unproven and unknown as a factual to be tedious and extremely limiting, because nothing can be known with that model given that the law of identity is meaningless in it.  Without the law of identity there is not knowledge. There is the rub as they say...

  I cannot understand your phrasing here.  'Tedious', has to do with long, drawn out expositions characterized by redundancy, which I must say I find evident in your writings, though not all....!!!
  I have attempted to be as succinct as possible, upon re-examination of my post, I think you'd have to agree.
  As to my tendency to 'expand reality to include (the) unproven and (the) unknown as factual', I just don't understand how you could see that as being 'extremely limiiting', for expansion is the very antithesis of limitation.(?) 
  I most certainly understand where you're coming from regarding verification, for that is the modus operandi of Science.
  For you, if you cannot weigh it, measure it, test it, physically examine it, it does not exist.
This for you is objective reality.
  When I say that 'the Creator' communicates with me, that I 'know' the Creator, that I 'know'  real physical Love coming to me from that Creator, you put this under the category 'subjective reality'.
And due to its subjectivity, and therefore unverifiable, it cannot possibly be considered true.
  Because you don't 'get it', it has to be untrue, as evidenced by the following quote.

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   Then you should have no problem explaining to me in detail what lets you know this, what evidence you used, what weights you gave to what and why.  I know fire burns because of the pain, and blisters it causes for example, and I can demonstrate it.  Because anything factual, and known can be demonstrated, it may take some time, but it can be demonstrated, and one does not have to be a believer first.  What is the first valid premise you are going to start with?  Mine is existence exists, yours?  I can prove mine, can you yours?

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In the First Epistle of John 3:1 he states: "Behold what manner of Love God hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God".
  So I guess from at least that Christian's perspective, (an intimate of 'the Christ')....'we all are'.


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Then why do you  suppose that so many treat us other "christs" so badly?  May I ask why is this passage more valid and worthy of quoting than: "If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple." (Luke 14:26)  ?

  I didn't quote that passage about sonship out of the blue,....I did so in response to a statement you made:  ".....then either Jesus was not the Son of God, or we all are".   Seems you took the ball and ran with it...., right off the field! 
  BTW, I do believe we all have to power to realise 'sonship' and 'daughtership'!

  (There's so much I'd like to discuss with you about my being a theist.  I am not a Christian in the normal sense of the word, and very little of the Gospels have lasting meaning to me.
Having read and studied them for many years, I am familiar with all of what has been attributed to Jesus.  That does not mean I have bought Christianity 'lock, stock and barrel', much less the entire content of those Gospels!) 

  Hey Boss......., It's 11:15 AM here and I haven't had any grub yet, so I'm about to put this down 'n' go get some.
  See you round the bunkhouse!
Oh and BTW....it's masculine, butch Men I like........  Maybe you could send me off some pics of yourself?  That little avitar pic of you shows a very handsome dude!

  Your hand......
 Zadoc

Offline Zadoc

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Re: Non believers who love Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #56 on: June 04, 2006, 01:53:46 PM »
  Hello Doug,

  Here's a tale for you,.........something that happened to involve my person.
I'm mentioning it here to you because it falls somewhere in the area between subjective and objective reality as you see it.

  This is not a retelling of a dream, for in actuality  it happened to me one Saturday afternoon around 3 years ago during a trip to New Jersey with a my friend Jack who'd asked me if I'd like to take a ride with him.
  We had ridden down the Garden State Parkway about 30 or so miles when we passed a Pier 1 store. (don't know if they have any in your neck of the woods.)
  He asked if I'd ever been in this particular one, and would I like to stop.
Sure......., lots of nice things to look at being a home decorating store........so we went in.
  Now Jack and I always went our separate ways whenever we arrived at any destination we'd both traveled to........different tastes..., interests.
  The store was not crowded, with maybe 8 to 10 people milling around, checking out the merchandise.
  We had been in the store about 40 minutes when I got the urge to defecate.
At the back end of the store I saw an open doorway through which a few store employees had been coming and going through.  I could see that the room beyond the door looked like part office/part storeroom. There was only one entrance to this room.  As I made my way over to the open doorway, thinking to ask some worker inside where the toilet was, a very primly dressed middle aged lwoman whom I had seen in the store earlier, happened to get to the doorway first.
In that room there was indeed a young blond woman seated a a desk doing some paperwork.
I arrived at that door seconds after the middle aged woman got there, so I heard her ask the woman at the desk, if the toilet was in this area.  The store clerk answered that there was, and she pointed a small room behind her, walled from ceiling to floor.  She told the visitor she had to unlock the door first and did so to let her in, and then turned to me and as she looked at me I told her I needed to use the facility also.  She sat back down to continue paperwork, and I parked myself outside, leaning on the door frame.  After 2 minutes or so, the store clerk got up, she passed very close to me as she left the room and entered back onto the main floor of the store. It seemed like 4 minutes or so had now past when another young woman came next to me and asked if I was waiting for the toilet, I said yes.  She fretted around nervously, and after 2 minutes or so said huffily that she couldn't wait any longer and left.
I never moved from that doorway.  I listened to hear any sounds of movement coming from that tiny room......I heard nothing, no sink running, no paper rustling, no flushing.
The store clerk returned and I mentioned to her that something may have happened to the woman whom she had let into the toilet, for she hadn't as yet come out. 
I'd estimate the time had elapsed by then 7 minutes or so.  I suggested she'd better knock on the door which the middle-aged woman had closed behind her.
  The store clerk proceeded to knock and call 'hello' at the door.........no response.
When she opened the door, the toilet was empty.  She was surprised at that.

I had never left that doorway and hung there so I wouldn't lose my 'turn' should somebody else come up to use it.  During my stay at that spot, I was facing into the office space, my eyes glancing at the storage items inside, and upon the items on the 2 desks therein.
THERE IS NO WAY THIS PERSON COULD HAVE GOTTEN PAST ME WITHOUT ME SEEING HER........that is if she wasn't traveling at or close to the speed of light!
 

Offline Doug2017

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Re: Non believers who love Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #57 on: June 05, 2006, 10:10:15 AM »
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There's so much I'd like to discuss with you about my being a theist.  I am not a Christian in the normal sense of the word, and very little of the Gospels have lasting meaning to me.
Having read and studied them for many years, I am familiar with all of what has been attributed to Jesus.  That does not mean I have bought Christianity 'lock, stock and barrel', much less the entire content of those Gospels!

I am not sure what I can add to that conversation.  What are you looking for?  I can point out the contradictions, the illusions, and the pure evil, but I do not think that is what you are looking for.

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Hey Boss......., It's 11:15 AM here and I haven't had any grub yet, so I'm about to put this down 'n' go get some.
  See you round the bunkhouse!

Sure enough. I have got to get to work myself I have a horse sale book to make and to print.  They finally got the information together, only a week late and now want the catalog tomorrow... just how it always works out.  No sleep for me tonight.


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Oh and BTW....it's masculine, butch Men I like........  Maybe you could send me off some pics of yourself?  That little avitar pic of you shows a very handsome dude!

Oh thank you, I appreciate the compliment.  Sadly, that avitar pic of me is 21 years old, I have gained a lot of weight since the loss of Michael, and a good part of my hair has fallen out.  So, I aint cute no more.   Needless to say, I normally do not allow pictures of me, so I have nothing to send.  If you still want one, I can have one taken, not a biggie. 

Take Care ranch hand...
Reality contains no contradictions, for how can something be and not be at the same time? Visit Us on the NON-BELIEVERS Thread.

Offline Doug2017

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Re: Non believers who love Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #58 on: June 05, 2006, 10:23:52 AM »
  Hello Doug,

  Here's a tale for you,.........something that happened to involve my person.
I'm mentioning it here to you because it falls somewhere in the area between subjective and objective reality as you see it. <snip>

I had never left that doorway and hung there so I wouldn't lose my 'turn' should somebody else come up to use it.  During my stay at that spot, I was facing into the office space, my eyes glancing at the storage items inside, and upon the items on the 2 desks therein.
THERE IS NO WAY THIS PERSON COULD HAVE GOTTEN PAST ME WITHOUT ME SEEING HER........that is if she wasn't traveling at or close to the speed of light!

Yep, quite a contradiction to be sure.  So, I have to ask what is your choice of the resolution?  Is it she walked through the bathroom wall, went up in a puff of smoke, Scottie beamed her up, she became invisible, or turned to a fine dust?  Or is it that you are lacking some kind of information, like a back door, or closet she could have hid in, of a window she could have crawled out of. Or could it be that you lost your attention for a few seconds, especially talking to the other lady, and she did walk by you, but you thought it was someone else, or did not notice?  People can enter altered states fairly easily, and have their vision, hearing and mind tied up to the point they are not really conscious for a short time, this happens to all of us every day, especially if we are in a mode of waiting.  This is what happens when one drives, and suddenly realizes that somehow they missed that bridge, or that object, or curve in the road, but are now past it.  In answer to your question, I can only say "I do not know".  There is much information I am lacking to make a judgement.  I would have to have extraordinary proof to accept something other than normal everyday life went on there.
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Offline quijote

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Re: Non believers who love Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #59 on: June 05, 2006, 04:31:33 PM »
Doug,

All that search and investigation I have done to understand Christianity and its relationship to me says more about me than the religion.  Christian sacred texts reveal a type of truth to many believers who never have done what I have but have come to the same place.  The Christian message is easily available to many.  However, I am a skeptic, scientifically minded, and curious about all things.  It takes a lot to convince me of anything.  Rationality would be my religion if I didn't have a powerful intuition which I am convinced does reveal some kind of metaphorical truth to me.

You very obviously apprehend only fundamentalist, literalist Christianity.  Your experience of Christianity is only as an opponent to rationality and science.  You've known it only in its most debased condition as far as I can tell.  You are also identifying Jesus and the church as the same thing.  I am not trying to convert you to belief; I am only trying to point out that there is a legitimate counter-position in Christianity that also demands love and acceptance of "faggots," not just tolerance.  My belief is that the Jesus myth is indeed telling us we are all sons of God.  We are all one thing.  Life is of a piece -- one unified piece.  We are all stardust.  If this is the truth that the Christ story tells, then necessarily I am you and you are me and I am to treat you/love you as myself.  If the truth of Christianity is realizing our one natures as children of God and even as the divine itself, I can't act other than to seek justice for you as myself, care for you as myself, accept you as I ask to be accepted, and to demand that you be fed, honored and loved as myself.  I completely understand that too many so-called Christians don't do that or believe that.  That does not mean that that was not Jesus' message.

My heavily anti-authoritarian streak is the reason I began to try to understand on my own.  No one tells me what to think or how to believe.  While the Church may be authoritarian, Jesus wasn't.  He was the sheep.  I'm not supposed to be.  I won't make of science a god either.  Science can tell me many important and profound things; it can't tell me everything there is to know about reality.  And, even scientists admit that there is no such thing as true "objectivity."  Einstein knew that when it came to certain scientific realities, to observe something is to change the outcome or to affect it.  And how to explain matter that exists as waves when perceived from one angle but as something else when perceived from another?  There are many paradoxes recognized by science.  The belief is that science doesn't have enough information to explain them yet.  That doesn't mean that a paradox is a delusion.  It means we can't ever or haven't yet explained it.

Our brains can know concepts and ideas.  If you say that there is nothing that can exist that is not a concept or idea, then you are stating a belief not an objective fact, IMO.  My belief is that there exists a reality beyond the purview of concepts and ideas.  Myths, like Christ myths, try to give you an approximation of the realness of the experience.  If the human brain works through concepts, and something is beyond a concept, it doesn't mean it's not real.  It means we will never be able to fully know or understand it, puny, primitive humans that we are.  You cannot prove there is no god.  I cannot prove there is.  Alll philosophical and scientific arguments hit this brick wall in the end.  It's a leap of faith either road you take.  I'm still standing at the crossroads.  I haven't made a choice yet.  I just acknowledge that there is one to be made.

The scientifically minded have no problem accepting that there are things we will not know for we don't know how long.  Why is it so outrageous to believe the same when it comes to spiritual matters?  There are more things in heaven and earth than we know.  This will always be true.  Scientists may one day satisfactorily explain my yearning for an unnamed thing, an unmapped home, a unity that has been sundered.  Until then, I acknowledge my yearning and do the best I can to explain it.

The original Christian message had nothing to do with "fag" hating, damnation, fire and brimstone, intolerance, hypocrisy, woman-hating, hierarchy, or authoritarianism.  It had to do with communalism, shared meals, equality, tolerance, sharing, love and justice.  It had to do with life in the here and now and living according to the loving impulses in our hearts not the ones that separate, judge, and divide into class, gender, or rationality.  Jesus and his followers might not have known what makes the stars shine in the heavens, but they knew about the deep-rooted needs of human beings and about what makes a fulfilling, good and peaceful life.

As for extraordinary claims requiring extraordinary proof, said like a true skeptic.  I'm with you dude.  However, it is for me an extraordinary claim to proclaim that science can describe all the reality that there is and every way that reality exists.  While I am a lover of science, I'd call that faith instead of science.  At least, ultimately.