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Author Topic: Non believers who love Brokeback Mountain  (Read 388462 times)

Gonzo

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Re: Non believers who love Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #60 on: June 06, 2006, 10:26:47 AM »
For so long I vacilated, calling myself an agnostic.  I was talking with someone who was an atheist and I questioned him about a problem I had with atheists.  Isn't it equally arrogant to insist there is no god as to insist there is one.  He very plainly said that all we know about god is made by man.  No divine inspiration, only man and the need to control the population.  The explanation was so undeniably clear, it had just never occurred to me, that I immediately adopted the title atheist.  I can't possibly say there is no god, but I can say that religions have almost nothing to do with god.  Man created what we know as god not the other way around.  Now this is not to say that some unifying principle governing the universe does not exist, some greater being, but that is just way too out there for me to understand.  It's like asking a dog what god is, it's a waste of time and you irritate the dog.  LOL.  Prayer is another subject.  Many people believe prayer works, although some recent studies refute this claim.  Prayer, though is an innately human characteristic and I don't think any "thing" listens to prayer and acts upon it.  Shit, half of our prayers are to vanquish our enemies.  Perhaps, it is effective in a humanist kind of way but that remains to be seen and may never be seen.

Ultimately, I think that all religions are an attempt to recreate the child/parent dynamic we had as children.  As children, we were protected by and sought comfort from our parents.  As adults, who is there to comfort and protect us?  I say we then created god to do just that.  A being that knows and understands the world better than we do.  As children we could say that our parents know better for us.  We dutifully go to school because Ma and Pa say it is good for us.  As adults, we do much the same with religion.  There is the old saying "God moves in mysterious ways."

Now, religion, IMO has very little to do with spirituality.  Many may say that I am both spiritual and religious and that may be, but I don't think you need religion to have spiritual feelings.  At my worst, I think religion actually interferes with spirituality.

Can I have one last cigarette before you tie me up to that pole and shoot?  LOL.

helen_uk

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Re: Non believers who love Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #61 on: June 06, 2006, 10:29:27 AM »
At my worst, I think religion actually interferes with spirituality.

That's me at my best!   :D

Offline Doug2017

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Re: Non believers who love Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #62 on: June 06, 2006, 08:17:14 PM »
Doug,

All that search and investigation I have done to understand Christianity and its relationship to me says more about me than the religion.  Christian sacred texts reveal a type of truth to many believers who never have done what I have but have come to the same place.  The Christian message is easily available to many.  However, I am a skeptic, scientifically minded, and curious about all things.  It takes a lot to convince me of anything.  Rationality would be my religion if I didn't have a powerful intuition which I am convinced does reveal some kind of metaphorical truth to me.

I see. 

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You very obviously apprehend only fundamentalist, literalist Christianity. 

No, not really, it is the fundamentalist that proves the point the best.

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Your experience of Christianity is only as an opponent to rationality and science.  You've known it only in its most debased condition as far as I can tell.  You are also identifying Jesus and the church as the same thing.  I am not trying to convert you to belief; I am only trying to point out that there is a legitimate counter-position in Christianity that also demands love and acceptance of "faggots," not just tolerance.  My belief is that the Jesus myth is indeed telling us we are all sons of God.  We are all one thing.  Life is of a piece -- one unified piece.  We are all stardust.  If this is the truth that the Christ story tells, then necessarily I am you and you are me and I am to treat you/love you as myself.  If the truth of Christianity is realizing our one natures as children of God and even as the divine itself, I can't act other than to seek justice for you as myself, care for you as myself, accept you as I ask to be accepted, and to demand that you be fed, honored and loved as myself.  I completely understand that too many so-called Christians don't do that or believe that.  That does not mean that that was not Jesus' message.

Yeah, most of my experience of Christianity is that an opponent of rationality.  We are all stardust, I agree with.   You know, I have no idea anymore what the message of Jesus is, when people say love at the same time putting you down as filth. Just look at what our congress and prez is doing now.  Besides the gay Christians from MCC I have never met any that openly state they support gay people, but I have met plenty who have no problem of locking all gays away forever without a thought.


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My heavily anti-authoritarian streak is the reason I began to try to understand on my own.  No one tells me what to think or how to believe.  While the Church may be authoritarian, Jesus wasn't.  He was the sheep.  I'm not supposed to be.  I won't make of science a god either.  Science can tell me many important and profound things; it can't tell me everything there is to know about reality.  And, even scientists admit that there is no such thing as true "objectivity."  Einstein knew that when it came to certain scientific realities, to observe something is to change the outcome or to affect it.  And how to explain matter that exists as waves when perceived from one angle but as something else when perceived from another?  There are many paradoxes recognized by science.  The belief is that science doesn't have enough information to explain them yet.  That doesn't mean that a paradox is a delusion.  It means we can't ever or haven't yet explained it.

Exactly true, science is not a god, nor does it have all the answers, however, I am forever hearing people saying that somehow justifies a mystical reason.  Nope, it just means it is unknown, unknown does not equate to a god.  We are not all knowing, therefore there are things that look like a paradox, but is it really? The premise of waves and particles being separate entities, are now looking more and more like two sides of the same coin.   

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Our brains can know concepts and ideas.  If you say that there is nothing that can exist that is not a concept or idea, then you are stating a belief not an objective fact, IMO.  My belief is that there exists a reality beyond the purview of concepts and ideas.  Myths, like Christ myths, try to give you an approximation of the realness of the experience.  If the human brain works through concepts, and something is beyond a concept, it doesn't mean it's not real.  It means we will never be able to fully know or understand it, puny, primitive humans that we are.  You cannot prove there is no god.  I cannot prove there is.  All philosophical and scientific arguments hit this brick wall in the end.  It's a leap of faith either road you take.  I'm still standing at the crossroads.  I haven't made a choice yet.  I just acknowledge that there is one to be made.

I agree, our minds can know concepts and ideas.  I do not say that there is nothing that can exist this is not a concept or idea, I say there is nothing that can exist that is not either mass or energy, or a combination thereof.  Absolutely there is a reality that exists beyond concepts and ideas, and even perception.  The atomic structure comes to mind, and the gravity field is also one, these we can not perceive, or understand completely, that does not introduce a god.  The problem of a concept that is beyond a concept is that it violates the law of identity. If it is different than a concept, it is not a concept.  If it can not be defined, it is meaningless, of what use is something that defies definition? How do you use it, it is an unknown, as an unknown, it is of unknown use, of unknown value, of unknown merit. 

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The scientifically minded have no problem accepting that there are things we will not know for we don't know how long.  Why is it so outrageous to believe the same when it comes to spiritual matters? 


Because the beliefs of the spiritual matters fly into the face a couple of laws that rationality is derived from.  Some of them being the law of identity, consciousness is conscious, existence exists, non-existence does not exist, and reality is absolute.  Without these being honored, nothing can be known, nothing can be understood.  If the spiritual was taken consistently, one would die in a fairly short time, but none take them consistently, so they live on.

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There are more things in heaven and earth than we know.  This will always be true.  Scientists may one day satisfactorily explain my yearning for an unnamed thing, an unmapped home, a unity that has been sundered.  Until then, I acknowledge my yearning and do the best I can to explain it.

Absolutely true that there are more things in heaven and earth than we will ever know or understand.  I satisfy that yearning with the awe of nature, the bigness of the night sky, filled with billions upon billions of stars, far away suns, around which planets rotate, and upon them?  Who knows?  I get a kick out of the opposite, the explanations science comes up with the structure of the smallest of the small.  But my main satisfaction is being around trees, running water and small creatures.  I find them very interesting, and a feeling of kinship flows both ways. I have a very strange affect on creatures, they tend to really like me, but then I like them too.  It is too bad I can not have that feeling of kinship with my fellow man, but, alas, it has not been that easy...

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The original Christian message had nothing to do with "fag" hating, damnation, fire and brimstone, intolerance, hypocrisy, woman-hating, hierarchy, or authoritarianism.  It had to do with communalism, shared meals, equality, tolerance, sharing, love and justice.  It had to do with life in the here and now and living according to the loving impulses in our hearts not the ones that separate, judge, and divide into class, gender, or rationality.  Jesus and his followers might not have known what makes the stars shine in the heavens, but they knew about the deep-rooted needs of human beings and about what makes a fulfilling, good and peaceful life.

So what happened then?  Why this terrible perversion that we are hit with daily? Why is the thrust now the afterlife, everything thing else is to be sacrificed?  See the contradictions?  As someone who searches for the equality, tolerance, sharing, love and justice I can not find it in the bible nor from those who say they follow it, it is a book of contradictions, prime for use by those that would pervert it for their own purposes. The average Joe has to have the bible interpreted.  The same is true for science and law it has to be interpreted for the average Joe, and it fraught with danger of being misused as a weapon.  The thing about science is it is fairly good about self correcting when the contradictions are resolved. 

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As for extraordinary claims requiring extraordinary proof, said like a true skeptic.  I'm with you dude.  However, it is for me an extraordinary claim to proclaim that science can describe all the reality that there is and every way that reality exists.  While I am a lover of science, I'd call that faith instead of science.  At least, ultimately.

I would too.  I have never held that science will ever be able to describe all of reality, and understand every nuance of reality, however that being said, the vast majority of the normal everyday reality is very well understood, and since that is where we live, it should be used.  And none of that requires an angry, brainless consciousness trouncing people it does not approve of.  "I do not know " is not a dirty concept that must be covered up by the mystical.

But hey, I would have no problem at all with anyone believing what they want, as long as they do not make laws, rules and social pressure to force their beliefs on anyone else.  That is religious freedom afterall, and supposedly they all claim to believe that too...


Reality contains no contradictions, for how can something be and not be at the same time? Visit Us on the NON-BELIEVERS Thread.

Offline Doug2017

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Re: Non believers who love Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #63 on: June 06, 2006, 09:05:14 PM »
For so long I vacilated, calling myself an agnostic.  I was talking with someone who was an atheist and I questioned him about a problem I had with atheists.  Isn't it equally arrogant to insist there is no god as to insist there is one.  He very plainly said that all we know about god is made by man.  No divine inspiration, only man and the need to control the population.  The explanation was so undeniably clear, it had just never occurred to me, that I immediately adopted the title atheist. 

I do not know what to think of this, it seems so simplistic compared to what I have had to go through.  I guess I am envious...  I question everything, I find it hard to accept anything like this.  I would question how he knew that it was all man made, I am fairly sure it is, but I would need more, much more.  There is just so many that believe, how could they all be wrong?  They are, but just giving you my odd thought process. I worked a lot of it, then I found Ayn Rand, which helped a lot, and I read others as well.  I came across a web site just the other night while looking up law of identity, it has it quite nicely but together.    http://www.importanceofphilosophy.com/Chart.html

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I can't possibly say there is no god, but I can say that religions have almost nothing to do with god.  Man created what we know as god not the other way around.  Now this is not to say that some unifying principle governing the universe does not exist, some greater being, but that is just way too out there for me to understand.  It's like asking a dog what god is, it's a waste of time and you irritate the dog.  LOL.  Prayer is another subject.  Many people believe prayer works, although some recent studies refute this claim.  Prayer, though is an innately human characteristic and I don't think any "thing" listens to prayer and acts upon it.  Shit, half of our prayers are to vanquish our enemies.  Perhaps, it is effective in a humanist kind of way but that remains to be seen and may never be seen.

Your common sense is strong, that is for sure.  I had to struggle more, but agree with our take.  The internal cry for help of a parent like figure when we are distressed is innate.  And I do not think that is a totally human trait, when a animal gets into a place where it fears for it's life it calls out as well, and it sure sounds similar to what a little one calls for it's mother in fear. 

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Ultimately, I think that all religions are an attempt to recreate the child/parent dynamic we had as children.  As children, we were protected by and sought comfort from our parents.  As adults, who is there to comfort and protect us?  I say we then created god to do just that.  A being that knows and understands the world better than we do.  As children we could say that our parents know better for us.  We dutifully go to school because Ma and Pa say it is good for us.  As adults, we do much the same with religion.  There is the old saying "God moves in mysterious ways."

That could be a big part of the dynamics.  To me God is the Santa Clause that adults get to have.  He promises hope, love and a place to belong, like the candy of adults, but you gotta be good, because you know he is checking his list twice and all the bad boys and girls go to hell, or get no presents...

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Now, religion, IMO has very little to do with spirituality.  Many may say that I am both spiritual and religious and that may be, but I don't think you need religion to have spiritual feelings.  At my worst, I think religion actually interferes with spirituality.

I tend to agree.  Though there a couple of versions of spirituality, and it depends on which one is meant.  If you mean the one of awe for nature, of companionship with creatures, of other people, I totally agree.  If you mean the version of spooks in every tree and rock, then I do not agree.

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Can I have one last cigarette before you tie me up to that pole and shoot?  LOL.

Sure, smoke away, second hand smoke is another one of those illusions that needs to be dispelled.  Need a light? Here... 

Now since I have you all tied up and all, can I be naughty??? Tickle... tickle...  LOL!  <evil grin> 
Reality contains no contradictions, for how can something be and not be at the same time? Visit Us on the NON-BELIEVERS Thread.

Offline Desecra

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Re: Non believers who love Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #64 on: June 07, 2006, 01:24:08 PM »
I've only just found this thread - I thought the non-believers were very much in the minority!  I'll try to catch up with the posts here and  I'm looking forward to joining in :).
Unless, I say otherwise, I'm probably talking about the short story, not the movie. :)

Offline Doug2017

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Re: Non believers who love Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #65 on: June 07, 2006, 02:36:44 PM »
I've only just found this thread - I thought the non-believers were very much in the minority!  I'll try to catch up with the posts here and  I'm looking forward to joining in :).

Hi Welcome! 

Join in or lurk, whatever works for you.  It does seem the non-believers are in the minority, but I think that has more to do with their independent nature, rather than actual numbers.  I am told there was quite a few non-believers in at first, but they seem to have moved on.  Such a shame...

Again, Welcome!

Doug
Reality contains no contradictions, for how can something be and not be at the same time? Visit Us on the NON-BELIEVERS Thread.

sactopete

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Re: Non believers who love Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #66 on: June 09, 2006, 04:15:57 PM »
Now this is not to say that some unifying principle governing the universe does not exist, some greater being, but that is just way too out there for me to understand.  It's like asking a dog what god is, it's a waste of time and you irritate the dog.

<growling> Occam’s parsimony just makes sense.  I’m not sure which is more irritating: Omniscient, Omnipotent beings outside of space/time, or String Theory.  </growling>  The Franciscans are one of my favorite orders.

Prayer, though is an innately human characteristic and I don't think any "thing" listens to prayer and acts upon it.  Shit, half of our prayers are to vanquish our enemies.  Perhaps, it is effective in a humanist kind of way but that remains to be seen and may never be seen.

People usually pray as a group, in a church.  Whether you call it meditation or prayer, I would like to think there are benefits to building a sense of community.  However, most prayers I’ve read about embody that request that all parents are familiar with: “Send Money!”

Offline All4one

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Re: Non believers who love Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #67 on: June 09, 2006, 05:56:06 PM »

People usually pray as a group, in a church.  Whether you call it meditation or prayer, I would like to think there are benefits to building a sense of community.  However, most prayers I’ve read about embody that request that all parents are familiar with: “Send Money!”


It's not surprising that most of the prayers we would read about are like that. That kind of prayer is to prayer what the relationships we see on Jerry Springer-type shows are to love.
"One's enough"  A.P.

Offline All4one

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Re: Non believers who love Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #68 on: June 10, 2006, 09:23:52 AM »
I was in a grocery store, pushing my cart ( avocados 5 for $5 ! ) when I realized how unkind and unfair this analogy must seem.

I didn't mean to criticize either those who pray for money or the folks who fight on the show. In a sense, they are all like children, calling out for what they think they need.
"One's enough"  A.P.

Offline quijote

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Re: Non believers who love Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #69 on: June 12, 2006, 04:25:10 PM »
I love all you non-believers.  I'm one at least half the time.  I have to say this though, just to keep us all clear-eyed and clear-thinking.  To be a true skeptic is to also be skeptical about your own beliefs.  Skepticism itself cannot exclude itself from the rule of skepticism.

That being said, are you interested, Doug, in discussing Brokeback Mountain as an existentialist piece of cinema?  A discussion could also be had about how Brokeback Mountain does not employ Judeo-Christian motifs typically found in many Westerns, if that is true.  Non-believers could discuss what the movie means to them in light of their non-belief.  Was your non-belief strengthened by this movie?  What does the movie say about religion, if anything at all?  Maybe we could apply secular humanist doctrine/ideas to this film.

Or, it would be very interesting just to continue hearing why people profess non-belief and how they got to the place they are.  That is profoundly enthralling as well.  I think there are many non-believers here because there are many thinking people here.  They are fascinating, one and all.  I get to hear from believers all the time.  It is a rare opportunity to get the infidel's point of view from the infidel's own mouth. LOL  I imagine you have as many different opinions and experiences and philosophies as Christians do.




Offline Doug2017

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Re: Non believers who love Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #70 on: June 12, 2006, 07:21:37 PM »
I love all you non-believers. 

We love all you believers as well, we just hate the belief... <wink>.

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I'm one at least half the time.  I have to say this though, just to keep us all clear-eyed and clear-thinking.  To be a true skeptic is to also be skeptical about your own beliefs.  Skepticism itself cannot exclude itself from the rule of skepticism.

Very true. 

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That being said, are you interested, Doug, in discussing Brokeback Mountain as an existentialist piece of cinema? 

Sure I am up for that.  I am not sure what I can add, but what the hey?   You will have to define "existentialist" for an answer to that one. 

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A discussion could also be had about how Brokeback Mountain does not employ Judeo-Christian motifs typically found in many Westerns, if that is true. 

Brokeback does not use nearly as many Christian motifs directly as does many Westerns, however, they are a strong underlying message through out this movie.  There is fear of anything "not normal" through out the movie, Ennis shows his the most.  Only a highly religious nut of a father would drag his sons to see a gruesome murder to prove his point that homosexuality is wrong.  Both of our guys seek marriage as way out of the feelings they feel.  They assume that a good woman will fix them, yet it does not.  Ennis shows that he may have broken through this illusion when Alma wants to go to a church social, and he does not want to hear the fire and brimstone. Yet, Ennis hangs on to the belief that being out will get you tire ironed, and this sick movie proves that he is correct.  What a message that is to anyone who has this fear!  The message is undeniably that gay people deserve what they get.  Once again, only religion teaches that message as just.   I feel that both of our guys suffered greatly at the hands of the religious dogma, and hatred to gay people, as we all do.
 
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Non-believers could discuss what the movie means to them in light of their non-belief. 


This movie was a real earthshaking monster to me.  It drug up such a remembrance of past events in my life that mirror what happened to our guys.  This movie brings up those past feelings and slaps you in the face with them.  Perhaps it is time to deal with the emotions so hidden away because they just hurt too much at the time to deal with.  It was such a shame to loose a loved one, and in such a violent and sick way.  While I was never gay bashed, I had a friend that was and he only left the bar I was in a few minutes after me, and that was in a gay part of town...  The tire iron fear is very real, and does limit ones ability to be out and free.  Now that I am back into the jaws of the devil himself, the bible belt, the tire iron fear is ever present.  Yet, this is my home.

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Was your non-belief strengthened by this movie? 

Not strengthened, but not diminished any either.  It just proves, as in real life, that what is is.  Ennis, Jack, the fears, the realities, the mountains, the poverty, death, everything happened just by cause and effect, there was no magic, no miracles, just human love and trials.  A lot of those trials directly caused by other peoples beliefs, pushed upon innocent others.  It would be nice to see a movie where the guys meet, fall in love, have a few struggles, then have a very normal loving life together, and are actually the bedrock romance that others look up to.  But, no, like the majority of gay movies the faggots in the end have got to suffer and die.  If I had known that was the way this one ended, I very well might not have seen it.  Though I am sure I am better off having to deal with my inner demons that this movie drug to the surface.  I least I hope so...

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What does the movie say about religion, if anything at all? 

It says that its got a strangle hold on the morality of right and wrong, and its wrong.  It says it's premises are wrong.   Though you will never get a believer to see that.

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Maybe we could apply secular humanist doctrine/ideas to this film.

I am not sure of what the humanist doctrine/ideas are.  However, I would love to see a world of where people was not defined by a label, but instead defined as loving, conscious humans. 

I have a problem with the first tent scene, where it looks like Jack put Ennis in a very tough spot.  I would have rather seen that scene as Jack saying, "Ennis is that what I think it is?" " Ah, sorry" Ennis shuffles away a little. Then Jack reaches over to take Ennis's hand to show him that there was nothing to be sorry about.  None of the this extreme pull back.  For as the scene is now, it seems to say that even though Ennis pulls back extremely, his actions actually means "Yes", that is a stupid standard to live to.  IMHO.  I can see very scared straight men... this is just the proof they need to justify the illusion that all gay men are after them.

I loved the second tent scene and it showed way more of the love that I think should exist between lovers.  I love the scenes of them holding each other... god I miss those days...  I miss not being greeted with a hug and a kiss, I miss not having whole afternoons holding my love and watching a movie.  I miss having someone to enjoy talking to, to care for, and to care for me.  Yep... this movie drug up a lot of miss, the same miss I see in Ennis's eyes in the closing scene.  It drug up the fight we had before he died, as Ennis and Jack, how if I had just been able to understand I would have done his last days so very different... regret for something that I had no power over... Yes, I am crying again... damn...

Today I decided to go through one of the bags of clothes of his.  I look at them and remember him wearing them, most of them make me chuckle.  He loved the strange in tee shirts.  He was part of a group called "Emerson St Ladies garden club", which is what their tee shirts said... even though there was not a lady in the group. I am kinda thinking of putting a couple of his items together in a frame so I can put them up on my wall.  A lot of it I threw away today, as that time is gone, so very gone. 

I also looked up to see when the gay rodeo is that I used to go to.  July 7th... maybe, just maybe I will make an effort to go, it would be good to see gay men again, perhaps stumble upon an old friend or two.  Perhaps even stumble back into our old bar, I see it still exists.   

I have a problem with Jack's complaining about the job that he agreed to do.  If it was going to be such a problem he should not have taken it, or as Ennis says, stand it.  I have not problem with them trading jobs, but they should have honored their the jobs they agreed to do, as best as they could.  Perhaps they did...

I see both of our guys not able to listen or talk things out very well.  Just one example is when Jack suggests Ennis needs to move, maybe to Texas, the rant that Ennis went on had nothing to do with what Jack suggested.  Jack should have stopped him then and there, and had him explain his jumping to the conclusions he did.  Nor does Jack listen to Ennis when Ennis tells him it is not going to be that way, Jack needed to find a way to satisfy Ennis's need to be safe, even if that was only in Ennis's imagination.   Which the story line tells us later it was not.  Perhaps Jack needed to rent a ranch and have Ennis as the main ranch hand...  The vast majority of their problems was this lack of communication, this not exposing the illusions that the other could see in his lover, they both had the opportunity to dispel the illusions of the other.  Of course, we are expected to believe that they never talked about much during those week fishing trips, which I find a little hard to imagine. 

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Or, it would be very interesting just to continue hearing why people profess non-belief and how they got to the place they are.  That is profoundly enthralling as well.  I think there are many non-believers here because there are many thinking people here.  They are fascinating, one and all.  I get to hear from believers all the time.  It is a rare opportunity to get the infidel's point of view from the infidel's own mouth. LOL  I imagine you have as many different opinions and experiences and philosophies as Christians do.


Perhaps, I do not know...  I am just an infidel afterall... <wink>

I sure wished we could get this thread moved up to the same folder as the believers, my guess is many non-believers look there, see they are not represented and move on.  Just a thought...



Reality contains no contradictions, for how can something be and not be at the same time? Visit Us on the NON-BELIEVERS Thread.

Offline Desecra

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Re: Non believers who love Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #71 on: June 13, 2006, 12:27:52 PM »
This is partly an answer to the comment above about the difference between being agnostic and atheist.

I've always called myself an atheist, and for me it's quite simple.  Being agnostic, to me, implies that I would think that God [or gods?] might exist, or might not - in other words that I'd be giving equal weight to the ideas that he did or didn't exist.  However, I don't think these ideas DO have equal weight.   Just because we don't know something FOR SURE, doesn't mean that the alternative has equal weight.  As an example, I could never absolutely prove for certain that my dog isn't an alien from Mars, or that Father Christmas doesn't exist, etc.  That doesn't mean that the ideas that my dog is an alien from Mars, or that Father Christmas exists, have any validity for me. 

So I'm stuck with being an atheist.  I'll need at least some shred of evidence to the contrary for me to change my mind :).
Unless, I say otherwise, I'm probably talking about the short story, not the movie. :)

Offline Jer009

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Re: Non believers who love Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #72 on: June 13, 2006, 12:50:05 PM »
I'm an agnostic, not an atheist, but when I found this topic, I shouted for joy! I'll be reading past pages and posting  in the future for sure. Thanks for a great conversation!

Offline Doug2017

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Re: Non believers who love Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #73 on: June 13, 2006, 01:47:40 PM »
This is partly an answer to the comment above about the difference between being agnostic and atheist.

I've always called myself an atheist, and for me it's quite simple.  Being agnostic, to me, implies that I would think that God [or gods?] might exist, or might not - in other words that I'd be giving equal weight to the ideas that he did or didn't exist.  However, I don't think these ideas DO have equal weight.   Just because we don't know something FOR SURE, doesn't mean that the alternative has equal weight.  As an example, I could never absolutely prove for certain that my dog isn't an alien from Mars, or that Father Christmas doesn't exist, etc.  That doesn't mean that the ideas that my dog is an alien from Mars, or that Father Christmas exists, have any validity for me. 

So I'm stuck with being an atheist.  I'll need at least some shred of evidence to the contrary for me to change my mind :).

Exactly! I agree totally.

However, I need more than a shred of evidence, though that would be nice start.  I think for me, a god or gods would have to set down, have a cup of coffee, and be open to conversation.  I would need to know why he/she/it is worthy of my worship.  If fear is their only method of getting worship, then from me they only would get contempt.  I absolutely abhor fear being used as a weapon.  Fear is the mind killer.
Reality contains no contradictions, for how can something be and not be at the same time? Visit Us on the NON-BELIEVERS Thread.

Offline Doug2017

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Re: Non believers who love Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #74 on: June 13, 2006, 01:49:18 PM »
I'm an agnostic, not an atheist, but when I found this topic, I shouted for joy! I'll be reading past pages and posting  in the future for sure. Thanks for a great conversation!

I look forward to your input!  Welcome!
Reality contains no contradictions, for how can something be and not be at the same time? Visit Us on the NON-BELIEVERS Thread.