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Author Topic: Non believers who love Brokeback Mountain  (Read 392031 times)

Offline quijote

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Re: Non believers who love Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #75 on: June 16, 2006, 07:58:25 PM »
Doug,

I'm just going to respond to some of the astounding things you said about this movie in your post to me above.  I don't think we saw the same movie, and I don't think it had a thing to do with whether I'm a believer or not.

Did you really mean you think this is a "sick" movie?  I must say I saw one of the most beautiful films with one of the "healthiest" points of view I have ever had the privilege to experience.

The "message" of this movie (I don't believe it was a message movie) was not that being out will get you tire-ironed.  It's message was not that gay people deserve what they get.  You must be mixing this movie up with something you saw aired on the 700 Club.  The point was the opposite of what you say.  To reject love and not be who you are in accord with your deepest self is the catastrophe here.  Self-hatred and lack of self-acceptance is the weakness that prompts the tragedy.  No one in this entire movie was shown to get what they deserved.  In fact, it showed how harsh life in general is, how unjust society and conventional values can be, and how much more all these main characters deserved.  The movie is humane in tone, humanistic in "message," and is in no way judgmental.

You say many unfair things about religion in relationship to this movie IMO.  Religion is mostly absent from this movie and in these characters' lives.  In fact, they apparently know little of the religion that they have inherited.  The person we've been led to believe is the most religious is Jack's mother who shows herself to be one of the kindest, gentlest, nurturing, most accepting and loving characters in this movie.  Religion is not seen as the source of the homophobia.  Conventional notions of masculinity are seen as the main culprit.  No one in this movie quotes scripture or even mentions god as a motivation.

And, dude, Christianity as I know it teaches us to turn the other cheek, to do unto others as you would have them do unto you, to feed the hungry, give to the poor, and in general make yourself a peaceful, loving servant of others.  I can only speak for Christianity, but there is no scriptural authority undergirding this religion sanctioning tire-ironing or suggesting "gays" are getting what they deserve when they are abused.  If you want to talk about Pat Robertson, okay.  But, he's a reprehensible and ignorant man.  He is not the Christian religion.  He has made up his own religion.  Christians can't help what he calls it.

I also think you are mistaken about the scene by the river when Jack suggests Ennis move to Texas.  I think it is clear that Ennis correctly deduced what Jack meant.  I also disagree with your contention that it is unrealistic to think Jack and Ennis did not talk a lot on their fishing trips.  I can imagine with no reservation two men on a fishing trip not having a whole lot to say to each other.  If I applied my personal experience to the whole world I would inequivocally state that men never talk, at least not to the people they are in a relationship with.

Moreover, there is no way this movie implies that "no" means "yes."  Jack's got Ennis figured out and knows exactly what Ennis means.  "No" means "I'm scared shitless even though I want you as much as you want me."  "No" means, "please don't make me love you."  "No" means "I am over the moon for you but I don't know what to do with this feeling."  Ennis' subsequent actions show Jack was right.    Neither is the scene proof to all straight men that gay men are after them.  Holy cow.  The ensuing deep, moving and profound love these two find for each other proves this movie can't be about a stereotypical gay man attempting to seduce a typical straight guy.  If the movie is misconstrued, the fault lays at the feet of the brain dead straight guy who bought the movie ticket.  Dude, it's time to watch this movie with your objective scientist's hat on.  No preconceived notions belong in the screening room.  No modern sexual politics belong in the theater.

As for this movie being about how "faggots in the end have to suffer and die," I protest such a notion.  Not all homosexual deaths are equal.  This is a point where many in the gay community go off the rails.  When the death of a gay character results from a movie studio's cowardice, callowness or cynicism, then we have the basis for offense.  But, dude, when the art form requires it as the basis for its truth, then there can be no legitimate offense.  Jack isn't dead because he's gay.  He's dead because this movie is a tragedy.  If he had been a straight woman, the straight woman would have had to have died in the end to be truthful to the revelation of the art form.  The movie would not have worked in its significant and meaningfully artistic way if Jack had lived.  It would have been another Hollywood mediocrity.  We'd all be saying, "Who cares?"  If they ride off into the sunset together, it's unbelieveable camp.  If they merely break up, what is the point?  I choose Truth over what's politically correct or "inoffensive" anyday.  The art determines the outcome, not the dogma of the gay community.  And, I would say the same thing if any other minority or feminists or anyone else made an equivalent point about their particular group having to die in a movie.

One final defense of the movie and Christianity:  my "belief" is not in conflict with anything, and I mean anything, this movie has to say.  It is human, humane, compassionate, loving, accepting and tolerant.  It does not give succor to the violent, the prejudiced, the intolerant, or the unjust.  It is fierce in its defense of love and in its love for justice.

That being said, Doug baby, I am sorry about the sorrow and regret this movie has evoked in you.  I am even more sorry that you have had such a personal loss.  Any anger, guilt, or unconsolable loss you feel is a natural response to this movie.  It doesn't mean the movie is maleficent.  It means the movie got to the truth of things.  Darlin', the truth of things is hard.  The truth of things hurts like a son of a bitch.  The only cure is to dive right in and feel it, invite it, accept it, and move right on along to the next step.  Fighting it is no way to bring peace.  But, then you've got to be done with the pain.  Wear it, but don't drown in it.  You've still gotta lotta livin' to do.  (Yes, I'm an Elvis fan.)

I would remind you of Christ's love and mercy, but what would an infidel do with them?  Besides I don't feel qualified to speak for Jesus or God.  I'll just send you my kind thoughts as one human to another, because since I saw a certain film classic I feel your heartache as my own.





Offline Doug2017

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Re: Non believers who love Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #76 on: June 16, 2006, 10:57:01 PM »
Doug,

I'm just going to respond to some of the astounding things you said about this movie in your post to me above.  I don't think we saw the same movie, and I don't think it had a thing to do with whether I'm a believer or not.

Sounds good.

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Did you really mean you think this is a "sick" movie?  I must say I saw one of the most beautiful films with one of the "healthiest" points of view I have ever had the privilege to experience.

Healthiest?  My God, how in the world can you call this a healthy movie?  It tears your heart out and leaves you totally destroyed...  It is just like a drug, I can not get it out of my mind.  I was fool enough to buy the DVD and paperback, it plays every waking moment, and I cry every time, though not as hard as the first 20 times I saw it.  I am not sure what it is doing to me, either it is going to cure me or kill me I do not know which.  Maybe the crying is good, maybe this is going to clear out those old cobwebs, maybe...  Maybe it is the beauty that is killing me, the healthy point of view... I just know it has me but good.  

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The "message" of this movie (I don't believe it was a message movie) was not that being out will get you tire-ironed.  It's message was not that gay people deserve what they get.  You must be mixing this movie up with something you saw aired on the 700 Club.  The point was the opposite of what you say.  To reject love and not be who you are in accord with your deepest self is the catastrophe here.  Self-hatred and lack of self-acceptance is the weakness that prompts the tragedy.  No one in this entire movie was shown to get what they deserved.  In fact, it showed how harsh life in general is, how unjust society and conventional values can be, and how much more all these main characters deserved.  The movie is humane in tone, humanistic in "message," and is in no way judgmental.


I agree the movie is not judgmental.  I agree the point is to reject love and not be who you are in accord with your deepest self is the catastrophe here, the question is why are not Ennis and Jack not in accord?  Do you not see the obvious connection to what keeps Ennis from giving his love?  He knows his Daddy did not approve, he knows that being out will get the wrath of those who can not stand others who are different.  He is trying to resolve this in his mind and it causes the self-hatred, the lack of self-acceptance, the inability to let go of his fear.  Do you actually think that Ennis gets this from nowhere, he has had this shoved down his throat since he was little, as we all have.  This movie shows just how harsh life is, and how badly it can mess with a persons mind when the unjust society and conventional values come knocking.  Ennis fearing the tire iron treatment, then having that as the cause of Jacks death because he was more out there is definitely a message that Jack deserved it for being out more.  

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You say many unfair things about religion in relationship to this movie IMO.  Religion is mostly absent from this movie and in these characters' lives. 

Nope, not so, even Jack when he sings it is one of the only songs he knows, a religious one.  Just because they do not do the church thing, does not mean they are not highly impacted by the religion around them, the religion that tells them they are not worthy.  Jack, again, states that he and Ennis will be marched off to hell.  Ennis had not sinned yet, but just that evening...  Jack is in a better place, freer to love, because he has already accepted that he is headed to hell.  

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In fact, they apparently know little of the religion that they have inherited.  The person we've been led to believe is the most religious is Jack's mother who shows herself to be one of the kindest, gentlest, nurturing, most accepting and loving characters in this movie. 

This is true, she does seem really wonderful in spite of her husband.  But I have to wonder if she has put it all together as what Ennis was to Jack. Many people will not see the connection simply because that means what they believed to be true was not, they have a daughter-in-law and a grandson after all.   Jack's Dad seems to suspect, and perhaps that is part of his source for being the heel that his is.

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Religion is not seen as the source of the homophobia.  Conventional notions of masculinity are seen as the main culprit.  No one in this movie quotes scripture or even mentions god as a motivation.

And the source of conventional notions of masculinity?  Where does that come from?  Where does the idea that the man rules the house, and the wife is subservient come from?  Listen to any church service for awhile you will find it there.  There you will find the extreme fear of gay people.  If it was not for religion, for what reason would any straight man have to fear a gay man?


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And, dude, Christianity as I know it teaches us to turn the other cheek, to do unto others as you would have them do unto you, to feed the hungry, give to the poor, and in general make yourself a peaceful, loving servant of others.  I can only speak for Christianity, but there is no scriptural authority undergirding this religion sanctioning tire-ironing or suggesting "gays" are getting what they deserve when they are abused.  If you want to talk about Pat Robertson, okay.  But, he's a reprehensible and ignorant man.  He is not the Christian religion.  He has made up his own religion.  Christians can't help what he calls it.

God I wished I could believe that!  Yet, all I have to do is listen to the tv or radio... to Rush, to Bill OReilly, to Michael Savage, to Lars Larson, to Fox news, to Pat Robertson, to Jerry Farwell, to Dobs Dobson, to our president, to a large part of our congress, to even the local clowns... they all spout the same trash.  Do not tell me that they do not represent Christians, otherwise they would be kicked off the air and thrown out of office in milliseconds.  Do not tell me they do not use Christianity like a laser to cut and dice the rest of us as so much useless trash.  Yes, I am in the Bible belt and this is the only thing I can get on my stations.  OReilly made the statement that this movie is only about "humanizing the homosexual" , forgetting entirely that homosexuals ARE humans.  How many times have I heard that AIDS is God wrath upon gay people? A thousand or more? Only by streaming on my computer can I get some decent talking points about this movie.

And you are wrong about there not being scriptural authority sanctioning tire-ironing or suggesting gays deserve what they get.  Even though we are equivalent to shellfish, we are an abomination in the eyes of the lord.  God and Jesus make it very clear that they sanction violence against anyone they consider "the enemy".  Jesus tells us to be happy to dash little ones against the rocks, their crime being born to the enemy.  Jesus tells us to murder those who would pull the believer away from him.  Jesus tells us he comes to bring war not peace, and to not question war.  God tells us he is both good and evil.  I can get you the passages if you need.    

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I also think you are mistaken about the scene by the river when Jack suggests Ennis move to Texas.  I think it is clear that Ennis correctly deduced what Jack meant.  I also disagree with your contention that it is unrealistic to think Jack and Ennis did not talk a lot on their fishing trips.  I can imagine with no reservation two men on a fishing trip not having a whole lot to say to each other.  If I applied my personal experience to the whole world I would inequivocally state that men never talk, at least not to the people they are in a relationship with.


We both know this was not fishing trips, as Alma told us that the tackle still had it's price sticker after 5 years, the line had never been wet. Hmmm, I guess that may be a difference between you and me.  I talk, I want to know what was meant.  The more I watch this movie the more I find myself nearly shouting at it.  What the does that mean Ennis?  You can not stand it any more? Do you want me to leave you alone then?  I sure can do that.  Jack why did you not ask Ennis if Alma or someone suspected, or why all the pointed questions, obviously Ennis wanted to air that. Yet, used his rant to back away from it, Jack should have not let him.  This movie is more about poor communication that anything else.  I know that look on Jack's face as Ennis drives away, he was not planning on ever seeing Ennis again, enough is enough.  That cold shutter that runs from head to toe...  I have been there, done that.  
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Offline Doug2017

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Re: Non believers who love Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #77 on: June 16, 2006, 11:06:57 PM »
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Moreover, there is no way this movie implies that "no" means "yes."  Jack's got Ennis figured out and knows exactly what Ennis means.  "No" means "I'm scared shitless even though I want you as much as you want me."  "No" means, "please don't make me love you."  "No" means "I am over the moon for you but I don't know what to do with this feeling."

Exactly, no means yes...  I do not play these games, they are only a path to hurt.  I was so very proud of Jack not starting it the second night, or the kissing later after Ennis wed, honoring Ennis's right to no. Ennis was making it very difficult to live, with his "come here, come here, go away, go away" game.  If you have ever loved one of those, it will make you insane.  Yep, had one for a time until I kicked his ass out, I never cried as many tears and hurt more than with that idiot.

 I just do not like the first nights actions by Jack simply because I did not see any reason for him to assume Ennis was into anything.  Maybe I missed the gaydar thing, I never was any good at that.  I used to have friends that was very good at that, wished someone gave lessons...

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Ennis' subsequent actions show Jack was right.

And if he was wrong?  Is this not exactly what we see in straight movies with women that is so damaging? Is this not the image that straight men fear that the gay guy will hit on them?     

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Neither is the scene proof to all straight men that gay men are after them.  Holy cow. 


The two are straight looking, acting men what other conclusion can they make? Though this is minor "a" point, not "the" point.  Do not sweat it. 

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The ensuing deep, moving and profound love these two find for each other proves this movie can't be about a stereotypical gay man attempting to seduce a typical straight guy. 

Yeah, there is the rub, as long as the straight guy can tell the gay guy from the rest he can steer clear of him , or threaten him, but when he suddenly discovers that he can not tell them apart for any other guy, then all guys can be a threat.  And you see that as a part of our society now, fear to hug, to show any emotion another man, because some other guy might mistake it as a clue for gayness.  It makes it hell for the closeted gay.

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If the movie is misconstrued, the fault lays at the feet of the brain dead straight guy who bought the movie ticket.  Dude, it's time to watch this movie with your objective scientist's hat on.  No preconceived notions belong in the screening room.  No modern sexual politics belong in the theater.

My objective scientist's hat is always on... <evil grin>  I thought you wanted to discuss this film in the light of the atheist perspective.  Also, I tend to look from the 10,000 foot level, rather than at the eye level.  At eye level I agree with you.   

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As for this movie being about how "faggots in the end have to suffer and die," I protest such a notion.  Not all homosexual deaths are equal.  This is a point where many in the gay community go off the rails.  When the death of a gay character results from a movie studio's cowardice, callowness or cynicism, then we have the basis for offense.  But, dude, when the art form requires it as the basis for its truth, then there can be no legitimate offense.  Jack isn't dead because he's gay.  He's dead because this movie is a tragedy.  If he had been a straight woman, the straight woman would have had to have died in the end to be truthful to the revelation of the art form.  The movie would not have worked in its significant and meaningfully artistic way if Jack had lived.  It would have been another Hollywood mediocrity.  We'd all be saying, "Who cares?"  If they ride off into the sunset together, it's unbelieveable camp.  If they merely break up, what is the point?  I choose Truth over what's politically correct or "inoffensive" anyday.  The art determines the outcome, not the dogma of the gay community.  And, I would say the same thing if any other minority or feminists or anyone else made an equivalent point about their particular group having to die in a movie.

I agree, but man, oh man, I was not prepared to live this death.  For some reason I had it in my head this was a "love story", not a "love tragedy", is that not what they said over and over again?  These guys are as real to me as anyone I have ever known or loved, so the pain is just as powerful, this movie is just too real, it feels like I have lived it a number of times and ways.  My problem, I will stand it like I always do.  I just loved the way that "Making Love" ended, that in the end all would be ok. So few gay movies end with an ending saying it will all work out, love will win out. 

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One final defense of the movie and Christianity:  my "belief" is not in conflict with anything, and I mean anything, this movie has to say.  It is human, humane, compassionate, loving, accepting and tolerant.  It does not give succor to the violent, the prejudiced, the intolerant, or the unjust.  It is fierce in its defense of love and in its love for justice.

God I wished I could see that...  It is human, absolutely.  It is humane, except for the intolerable punishment of both our guys for being different, that punishment self inflicted.  It is compassionate, except for the extreme pain inflicted upon the women, upon our guys with their hiding and fearing being found out.  It is loving.  It is accepting, except for Ennis and his denial, for Alma and her feelings of betrayal, except for LD and his superiority, Jack's Dad and his sickness, and the fear of rejection from society in general.  It is tolerant of little, the love has to be hidden, the time together has to be taken in secret, fear is everywhere.   It does give in to the violent, the prejudiced, the intolerant and the unjust in what Ennis's Father did, what Jack's attackers did, and the fear around all of that.   It is fierce in showing love being the meaning of life itself, that one must strive for it, but it does not defend it, nor is there justice, just like real life. 

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That being said, Doug baby, I am sorry about the sorrow and regret this movie has evoked in you.  I am even more sorry that you have had such a personal loss.  Any anger, guilt, or unconsolable loss you feel is a natural response to this movie.  It doesn't mean the movie is maleficent.  It means the movie got to the truth of things.  Darlin', the truth of things is hard.  The truth of things hurts like a son of a bitch.  The only cure is to dive right in and feel it, invite it, accept it, and move right on along to the next step.  Fighting it is no way to bring peace.  But, then you've got to be done with the pain.  Wear it, but don't drown in it.  You've still gotta lotta livin' to do.  (Yes, I'm an Elvis fan.)

I am sorry too about the sorrow and regret this movie has evoked, I am so sorry for myself and Ennis, we both suffered the loss, and the last fight before it, and now live with the guilt and extreme loss. 

I am sorry Ennis lost most of his chance at true love because of the internal demons that was forced upon him, just as I am sorry for mine. 

I have anger that we as gay people have it so much harder to find love than straight people, they can not hold 50% of their relationships together and they have every conceivable thing going for them, and then wonder why we have such a hard time with relationships when each and every step is challenged, from outside and inside. 

I have some guilt in that I did not trust my love over his doctor, I choose the "expert" and caused a lot of pain for the both of us before his death.

My inconsolable loss is the potential that was there, the love that is forever gone, the missing... 

I feel for Ennis, yet damn him, I would have dropped him long before Jack did, but that is now, back when I held on for dear life, I had to be hurt over and over to learn my lesson, and I can tell you it still hurts.  I came to a point I wonder if love was worth it.  The truth is this movie is way, way too close to home and am having a hell of a time dealing with it.  I would much rather it was more of a dream come true love story rather than the nightmare that one can never awaken from love story.

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I would remind you of Christ's love and mercy, but what would an infidel do with them?  Besides I don't feel qualified to speak for Jesus or God.  I'll just send you my kind thoughts as one human to another, because since I saw a certain film classic I feel your heartache as my own.

The infidel would wish he could see and experience Christ's love and mercy, so he could accept it.  Instead, of course, he sees man using Christ, God, and the Bible as a weapon.  One that cuts to the quick, and never heals.  One that steals love and makes it dirty, evil, one that makes fear righteous, has no mercy, and is relentless.  How in the hell do I get over seeing that?  I can not pretend it is something it is not.   So the kind thoughts are very welcome.  Kind and warm thoughts back at you.


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sactopete

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Re: Non believers who love Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #78 on: June 18, 2006, 12:56:57 AM »
As for this movie being about how "faggots in the end have to suffer and die," I protest such a notion.  Not all homosexual deaths are equal.  This is a point where many in the gay community go off the rails.  When the death of a gay character results from a movie studio's cowardice, callowness or cynicism, then we have the basis for offense.  But, dude, when the art form requires it as the basis for its truth, then there can be no legitimate offense.  Jack isn't dead because he's gay.  He's dead because this movie is a tragedy.  If he had been a straight woman, the straight woman would have had to have died in the end to be truthful to the revelation of the art form.  The movie would not have worked in its significant and meaningfully artistic way if Jack had lived.  It would have been another Hollywood mediocrity.  We'd all be saying, "Who cares?"  If they ride off into the sunset together, it's unbelieveable camp.  If they merely break up, what is the point?  I choose Truth over what's politically correct or "inoffensive" anyday.  The art determines the outcome, not the dogma of the gay community.

Haven’t there been enough tragedies?  It’s something of a cliché too.  I don’t know about you but I’ve had “tragic faggot” hurled at me as an epithet.  Sure death is what makes tragedy, but check out Vito Russo’s Celluloid Closet.  When you see the clips from all the tragedies starting in the 50’s, The Children’s Hour, Rebel Without a Cause, The Killing of Sister George and on and on in which the faggot dies, isn’t it time yet for another genre?

And conversely, why, in your mind, is a positive ending “unbelievable camp”?  Is that a failure of imagination?  If they lived, why wouldn’t you or anyone else care?  I’m glad you’re choosing “Truth” over merely PC, but what “Truth” does this film illustrate?  Bigotry, Fear and Ignorance kills?  Why can’t the characters find their way out?  Wouldn’t a better truth be to have at least suggested some solution, some way out?

Offline Doug2017

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Re: Non believers who love Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #79 on: June 18, 2006, 09:25:14 AM »

Haven’t there been enough tragedies?  It’s something of a cliché too.  I don’t know about you but I’ve had “tragic faggot” hurled at me as an epithet.  Sure death is what makes tragedy, but check out Vito Russo’s Celluloid Closet.  When you see the clips from all the tragedies starting in the 50’s, The Children’s Hour, Rebel Without a Cause, The Killing of Sister George and on and on in which the faggot dies, isn’t it time yet for another genre?

And conversely, why, in your mind, is a positive ending “unbelievable camp”?  Is that a failure of imagination?  If they lived, why wouldn’t you or anyone else care?  I’m glad you’re choosing “Truth” over merely PC, but what “Truth” does this film illustrate?  Bigotry, Fear and Ignorance kills?  Why can’t the characters find their way out?  Wouldn’t a better truth be to have at least suggested some solution, some way out?

This is what I was talking about. The hope that all is not a lost cause, the hope that others of decent moral character, of decent being exist for us.   How are gays portrayed these days?  Our "positive" movies and series are always either extremely tragic or they are drug addicts, and /or mindless whores.  The two that come to mind is Will and Grace, such mindless drivel, and Queer as Folk, what shameless druggies they are.  I crave decent role models, where the gay relationship is the bedrock, no drag queens, no drugs, no extra marital sex, maybe this is a little far, but if you will a "Ozzy and Harry" type of show.   

I can imagine one where a family of man, wife, six children, very caring and loving parents, and a loving gay bother of one of the parents with his loving partner, then the tragedy of a car accident killing the parents, and the children all moving in with the uncle.  The uncle and his lover being the loving bedrock against which the events unfold, but in the end always, always the love of the two overcomes the trials, and holds their family together.  Just a thought... 

BBM was so close, this is why it hurt so much, it had all the elements of being a great love story, it was only lacking the ending where love conquers all.  So instead is a great love tragedy.  So many of the gay community has lived first hand their own love tragedy, so they are needing a love story, they need the uplifting hope that love truly conquers all... 

In support of our heroes, I rented "Jarhead" and "Casanova" yesterday.  Jarhead was marginal, I am not a fan of war movies, would never normally rent one, but for Jake, he really filled out for this movie, a good look.  Nor am I a fan of womanizing movies, but for Heath... but I must admit that I did enjoy the light heartedness of "Casanova" and have watched it a couple of times.  We will know we have arrived when there can be a mixed gay movie of the same light hearted fun, and with the same love wins in the end.  It was good to see them in other characters, it took a little of the edge off BBM. 

((Hugs))  Doug
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sactopete

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Re: Non believers who love Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #80 on: June 18, 2006, 04:30:57 PM »

So many of the gay community has lived first hand their own love tragedy, so they are needing a love story, they need the uplifting hope that love truly conquers all... 


amen to that, bro

sactopete

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Re: Non believers who love Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #81 on: June 18, 2006, 04:53:35 PM »
The movie would not have worked in its significant and meaningfully artistic way if Jack had lived.  It would have been another Hollywood mediocrity.  We'd all be saying, "Who cares?"  If they ride off into the sunset together, it's unbelieveable camp.  If they merely break up, what is the point?  I choose Truth over what's politically correct or "inoffensive" anyday.

Quijote,  I don't mean to argue with you over this comment.  I believe it merely reflects popular cultural norms.  We can't yet imagine a happy ending that won't be parodied and insulted.  It could only be "unbelievable camp".  But Hollywood does have a long tradition of depicting repressed unrequited love without resorting to the extreme of death.  Your point about the lack of self-acceptance in the story would have been tragedy enough.

Offline quijote

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Re: Non believers who love Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #82 on: June 19, 2006, 11:29:37 PM »
I guess if what I have already said doesn't persuade you to my point of view, nothing more will do.  I just know that without the death of the main character the deepest depths of our compassion could not have been reached.  A love affair gone wrong does not come close to touching our capacity for mercy or sense of justice as does a devastating, unnatural and unjust death.  Your typical love story could never have had the same effect on your lives.  A different movie could not have awakened the slumbering hero in each of you.  You may have wanted a pretty picture; the folks who made this movie were aiming for something a little more life-transforming.

I repeat, the homosexual character does not die because of a conventional moral code imposed on the movie business.  He does not die because it was convenient for morally deficient movie producers and writers.  He doesn't die because of a perverse desire of the majority to hurt gay folks.  He doesn't die because we are to see the two lovers' relationship as wrong, impossible or immoral.  He didn't die to make straight people feel comfortable.  It is just the opposite.  We are made to feel personally devasted by Jack's death, both gay and straight, male and female, because we are made to love him, we are made to believe in his love, and his homosexual relationship is shown to be so right and beautiful.  We are made to feel how profoundly wrong the death is.  This is the difference between the typical movie death of the typical gay character and the death in this movie.  Tell me again, how does using a character's death to help me and everyone else find our own moral code, our own sense of justice and mercy, and to find our own compassion (I discovered the gay Jack and myself are one) invite the distraste of the gay community?

The fact is, the people involved in making this movie treated gay folks as completely equal, subjecting them to the very same rules that govern the art form of the tragedy for everyone.  A gay couple has never, ever in the history of mainstream cinema been treated with such unprejudiced and loving eyes.  Never has the level of respect for their manhood or their humanity been so high.  A gay character's death has never been felt as deeply  either.  I know gay folks everywhere want a feel good movie about two gay lovers.  I agree that their hopes are not realized in this movie.  However, that doesn't mean this movie is anything other than beautiful in its truth.  In no way was the gay character's death governed by any rule other than those arising from the discipline of art.  You may have wanted a feel-good love story with little emotional investment to muck up your hearts, but what you got is a film for the ages and a work of art that will inevitably create a seismic shift in perception.  I think Jack's death may be worth it.

I say none of this out of anger or upset.  I just love and respect this movie so much for what it has tried to do that it's frustrating when people don't see it the same way I do.  Brokeback is nothing but good.  I feel protective of it.  It is one of the few works of art in my lifetime that has spoken to me.  I want to share that with all you gay folks because your beating hearts make this film live for us all.

Offline Boris

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Re: Non believers who love Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #83 on: June 20, 2006, 07:22:21 AM »
I have to say that I'm with quijote on this one. Brokeback Mountain is one of the most daring attempts to break the stereotypical image of gays, gay life (or death) and a man's love and passion toward another man. The death was in the original story so of coure it is in the movie. The movie that plays out as classical tragedy. The sadness of the story speaks to sadness in us, but in my mind the sadness it brought up in me wasn't about hopelessness, on the contrary. This movie sets a challenge of hope, it doesn't destroy it. To call BBM a movie about how the faggot dies is grave injustice to the folks who did it and to the movie itself. No faaggot died in the movie because there were no faggots in the movie.

Are you suggesting that the movie shouldn't have been made at all?



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Offline Doug2017

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Re: Non believers who love Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #84 on: June 20, 2006, 10:31:18 AM »
I guess if what I have already said doesn't persuade you to my point of view, nothing more will do.  I just know that without the death of the main character the deepest depths of our compassion could not have been reached.  A love affair gone wrong does not come close to touching our capacity for mercy or sense of justice as does a devastating, unnatural and unjust death.  Your typical love story could never have had the same effect on your lives.  A different movie could not have awakened the slumbering hero in each of you.  You may have wanted a pretty picture; the folks who made this movie were aiming for something a little more life-transforming.

I understand your point, I was trying to show there is more, much more.  If this movie was made for the straights and religious, then this is exactly what it takes to reach them, this I agree.  However, if it was made for the gay community it is like using a cannon to splat a fly, they already have the capacity for mercy and a sense of justice. IMHO.

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I repeat, the homosexual character does not die because of a conventional moral code imposed on the movie business.  He does not die because it was convenient for morally deficient movie producers and writers.  He doesn't die because of a perverse desire of the majority to hurt gay folks.  He doesn't die because we are to see the two lovers' relationship as wrong, impossible or immoral.  He didn't die to make straight people feel comfortable.  It is just the opposite. 

You are comparing apples to oranges.  You are seeing the people outside of the movie, not the people represented in the movie.  The people who produced this, the actors, etc are heroes in my book, though I question their goal, their point.  I have to assume their point was to manipulate straights and religious, which it was very successful.  Definitely, the whole point of the movie was that conventional moral code, the desire of the majority to hurt gay folks they do not understand, nor want to understand, that the majority see the two lover's relationship as wrong, and immoral, if they were to know, therefore our guys hide, they try to satisfy those standards with marriage and children, and of course, the extreme pain that causes.  However, Jake, Heath, Ang and all involved, I have no doubt their intention was caring and loving and it shows in the film.   

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We are made to feel personally devasted by Jack's death, both gay and straight, male and female, because we are made to love him, we are made to believe in his love, and his homosexual relationship is shown to be so right and beautiful.  We are made to feel how profoundly wrong the death is.  This is the difference between the typical movie death of the typical gay character and the death in this movie.  Tell me again, how does using a character's death to help me and everyone else find our own moral code, our own sense of justice and mercy, and to find our own compassion (I discovered the gay Jack and myself are one) invite the distraste of the gay community?


Sure, no problem. First a point, not the point, why do we NEED to be made to feel devastated by death to know that his homosexual relationship is right and beautiful?  Know that his death is profoundly wrong, especially by beating to death by tire iron?  I know my moral code, sense of justice and mercy, my compassion this only reinforces them, not define them to me. 

The point, think from the point of view of the religious right, that homosexuality is immoral, evil, sick, homosexuals are sexual deviants, predators, child molesters, pathetic creatures. Now look at this movie, Jack is evil because he pulls reluctant Ennis into this sick life of perversion, Jack therefore deserves godly punishment by tire iron in the end, and Ennis deserves his crushing punishment of eternal sadness and loneliness because he did not fight harder against it.  It also proves that homosexual love, no matter how intense, how beautiful, always ends in despair, disaster.  You are only seeing this movie from a loving, caring person, that is commendable, but sadly, that is not the only type of person in the world.

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The fact is, the people involved in making this movie treated gay folks as completely equal, subjecting them to the very same rules that govern the art form of the tragedy for everyone.  A gay couple has never, ever in the history of mainstream cinema been treated with such unprejudiced and loving eyes.  Never has the level of respect for their manhood or their humanity been so high.  A gay character's death has never been felt as deeply  either. 

I agree.  I just wonder why they thought the gay community needed another tragedy. 

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  I know gay folks everywhere want a feel good movie about two gay lovers.  I agree that their hopes are not realized in this movie.  However, that doesn't mean this movie is anything other than beautiful in its truth.  In no way was the gay character's death governed by any rule other than those arising from the discipline of art.  You may have wanted a feel-good love story with little emotional investment to muck up your hearts, but what you got is a film for the ages and a work of art that will inevitably create a seismic shift in perception.  I think Jack's death may be worth it.

Some may, I only wanted some sign of hope of gay love being triumphant in the end.  To leave Ennis in eternal sadness and loneliness is so very harsh.  In the original short story, he began to dream of Jack, waking up happy or sad, with the pillow wet from tears, so very sad.

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I say none of this out of anger or upset.  I just love and respect this movie so much for what it has tried to do that it's frustrating when people don't see it the same way I do.  Brokeback is nothing but good.  I feel protective of it.  It is one of the few works of art in my lifetime that has spoken to me.  I want to share that with all you gay folks because your beating hearts make this film live for us all.

I say none of what I say out of anger either, maybe a little frustration.  I absolutely love this movie and respect this movie, I just do not like the ending, that is a personal problem I understand this.  It is most likely because it hits so terribly close to home.  If I was in a long term relationship at this time, it would not be nearly as powerful on me as it is.
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Offline Doug2017

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Re: Non believers who love Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #85 on: June 20, 2006, 10:53:48 AM »
I have to say that I'm with quijote on this one. Brokeback Mountain is one of the most daring attempts to break the stereotypical image of gays, gay life (or death) and a man's love and passion toward another man. The death was in the original story so of coure it is in the movie. The movie that plays out as classical tragedy. The sadness of the story speaks to sadness in us, but in my mind the sadness it brought up in me wasn't about hopelessness, on the contrary. This movie sets a challenge of hope, it doesn't destroy it. To call BBM a movie about how the faggot dies is grave injustice to the folks who did it and to the movie itself. No faaggot died in the movie because there were no faggots in the movie.

Yes, if you are looking from the perspective of a loving, conscious being, but look from the point of view of those who believe any gay tendency is a faggot.  Look from the point of view that this movie was a movie to "humanize homosexuals" as Bill ORielly stated.  Look from the perspective that god hates fags, does this movie then proclaim that gay love is valid, is a just love, and is not condemned by god?  No, it supports their perspective that no matter how "great" it is, in the end it will always end in disaster, even if it takes some of the righteous to weld a tire iron.

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Are you suggesting that the movie shouldn't have been made at all?

Not at all, I think it needs about 5 minutes more to end it with an ending that is a little more hopeful is all, even a miracle would be great, something that would proclaim that gay love can endure, deserves to endure in spite of the odds. 





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Offline Desecra

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Re: Non believers who love Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #86 on: June 20, 2006, 11:01:48 AM »

I understand your point, I was trying to show there is more, much more.  If this movie was made for the straights and religious, then this is exactly what it takes to reach them, this I agree.  However, if it was made for the gay community it is like using a cannon to splat a fly, they already have the capacity for mercy and a sense of justice. IMHO.


I just want to point out that some straight people and religious people have the capacity for mercy and a sense of justice :).
Unless, I say otherwise, I'm probably talking about the short story, not the movie. :)

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Re: Non believers who love Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #87 on: June 20, 2006, 11:07:16 AM »
Quijote and Boris, I agree with you guys.  BBM is a beautiful film, beautifully made.  I have no argument with that.   Annie Proulx kills off a lot of characters in her collection of short stories, and frequently in absurd, senseless or meaningless ways.   That’s one way she creates the sense of a harsh uncaring environment.  I truly enjoy her writing.  The movie is much more than her story.

You know all those tragedies in the 50’s were made with the best of intentions as well.  They’re all classic, enduring films meant to illustrate the inhumanity of prejudice and ignorance.  The Death is an assertion of a character’s common humanity.  If you cut me, do I not bleed?  I guess I’m frustrated with the fact that it’s 50-60 years on and we’re still having to make movies with the same basic assertions.  Gee, homosexuals are human too.

The alternatives are endless.  I’m not asking for soppy “feel good” anything. 

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Re: Non believers who love Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #88 on: June 20, 2006, 11:09:10 AM »

I understand your point, I was trying to show there is more, much more.  If this movie was made for the straights and religious, then this is exactly what it takes to reach them, this I agree.  However, if it was made for the gay community it is like using a cannon to splat a fly, they already have the capacity for mercy and a sense of justice. IMHO.


I just want to point out that some straight people and religious people have the capacity for mercy and a sense of justice :).

Yea no kidding, I am straight and religious!   ;D  We are having the same conversation over in a thread about re-writng the movie.

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Re: Non believers who love Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #89 on: June 20, 2006, 11:34:39 AM »
Quote
I just want to point out that some straight people and religious people have the capacity for mercy and a sense of justice :).

Of course, the ones I was thinking of would not be caught dead on this sight. 
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