Another non-believer here! I wouldn't call myself an athiest, because frankly that takes a stronger statement of faith (or non-faith) than I'm willing to make.
I sure understand, I used to be the same. It was only when I was forced to confront my demons that I saw that being a little believer is like being a little pregnant... But you will have to find your own course, there are many many paths to the mountain top. Some take the rocky shear cliff face, others the wondering gradual stream bed on the other side. It is the journey that counts, not the destination. If it is done in love, care and compassion then it is all wonderful. In my humble opinion.
I guess I have an unusual relationship with religion. I've never had any major negative experiences surrounding it so I don't feel the fear, anger, etc. of many who did grow up in conflict with religion. I have no interest in making religion a big part of my life, and I spend very little time thinking about it. Yet because I'm fortunate enough to have escaped any religious trauma, when I am faced with it I don't have a problem with it (on a personal level, that is. I have a huge problem with people who want to force their religion on society at large).
There a many of a time I would give a major body organ to feel just this way... I am so tired of the fight, but it goes on. If you can not fix it, you have to stand it, is absolutely true. And no, I do not think your relationship with religion is unusual, in fact, I would say that is the usual relationship with religion, which makes it hard to see why this is a big deal. And maybe, just maybe it is not a big deal, maybe it just me who has this strong reaction to it. I always have to wonder why 95% say they subscribe to religion, yet at least 65% do not actually believe what they subscribe to.
My mom's family is Jewish (her grandparents were orthodox) and my dad's is episcopalian but my parents are basically athiests. We went to Unitarian church when I was little, but it was mainly a way to socialize with other liberal families. My family's attitude toward religion was very relaxed. We celebrated (still do) all the major christian and jewish holidays, but it was all about tradition as opposed to the religious aspect of it. To this day, I always have to remind myself what a big deal Easter is to christians, because to me it's about chocolate bunnies and jelly beans. Same with christmas -- it's trees and presents to me.
Exactly, the same here. We celebrate the family for Christmas, have the tree, the great food, love and hugs all around. A celebration of winter. Easter is a celebration of spring, with flowers, candy, little creatures and our families love. We celebrate the Christian holidays as family holidays, and get togethers for friends.
One of my favorite stories about growing up concerns going shopping at Sears with my mother and my sister. I was 6 and she was about 5 and we were looking at christmas tree decorations. My sister went up to a creche set and asked what it was. The saleswoman told her it was the scene of Jesus's birth and it was a christmas decoration. My sister's comment: "that doesn't look very christmas-y to me!" When I was about 14 we stopped having a tree altogether. My dad is an architect and one year a contractor he worked with gave him a brick embossed with "Merry Christmas." So now every December my parents put it out on the mantel, and we have a laugh about our Christmas Brick!
LOL! Yes, that is a very nice tradition. I agree with your sister, much of the religion around Christmas and especially around Easter does not seem to reflect what I am celebrating. But then Santa Clause and the Easter Bunny are not religious either, now are they?
I have to say that as I've gotten older, I've felt a stronger identification with my Jewish heritage, but not in a religious sense -- more as a connection to my ancestry. I think it stems largely from my involvement with Holocaust issues. While I was in grad school I had a freelance job writing summaries of audiotaped interviews with Holocaust survivors -- my summaries were sent to various historical archives so researchers looking for interviews about certain camps or towns, etc. could find interviews that were relevant. Also, I'm a lawyer and for three years I worked for the Justice Department office that denaturalizes and deports Nazi war criminals. I guess if you asked me what religious I am, at this point I would say Jewish (I used to say none), although I never go to services, don't speak Hewbrew, don't believe in God and think the scriptures are just literature. But I have to say -- when I meet another Jew I do feel a sense of kinship and identification. And to be completely frank, I suppose I like it when I get to tell people I'm Jewish because it reminds them that not everyone is christian.
It is important to have roots. I was listening to a conservative talk show the other day, and they was talking about how the holocaust never happened and it was just a Jewish scare story. While I am not Jewish, I have read and have seen enough pictures to know that it actually happened. If I remember correctly, was it not 5 million suspected gay people also put to death at that same time? They with the pink triangle... one does not ever hear much about them, the jewish gays... I sorta of wished I had that feeling of kinship and identification, I am too butch for the gay illusion, yet too nelly for the cowboy illusion. Yet, I was born and raised on a ranch have raised cattle and been around cattle all my life, even rode a horse in my younger days, but never liked the boots and hat. The boots always hurt my feet and the hat was hot... Sorry, rambling...
I guess I'm just lucky that I grew up with a family that didn't shove religion down my throat. And most of my friends and family have a similar attitude toward religion as I do, so I feel supported in my choices. I really feel sorry for people who feel conflict with their families and their communities because of religion. (doesn't that raise the question of how religion can be so wonderful when it causes so much strife?) I recognize how fortunate I am that I don't have to deal with that.
Yes, you are lucky. I am lucky in that my family did not shove religion down my throat. Religion is a non-subject here, but so is gay. Ahh, you do see the contradiction, excellent. That is the very question, how can religion be so wonderful when it causes so much pain and suffering, when wars can be justified by it. When people can be marginalized by it. When sacrifice of the individual can so easily be done with it. I guess my mission is to maybe get people to see that even if they feel they are not being impacted, that they actually are. We build walls of protection that we get so used to that we actually begin to believe they are normal, and just. Just my humble opinion...
Well, I guess that's changing, though, because it's getting harder and harder to avoid being slapped in the face by religion at every turn. I do feel a lot of fear and extreme anger at the increasing influence of christianity in society at large. What galls me most is that the idea of separation of church and state seems to have gone out the window.
It does not gall me, it scares me to death... Without separation of church and state, there is no brakes to the rising tide of fanaticism, and is this not why we have attacked other nations? Without separation of church and state, there is nothing to stop them from being in our bedrooms with laws. It is already happening, I watched a show on the Texas legislature where one religious nut put a law forward to make it a felony for a man's penis to touch an asshole. He kept quoting the bible as his justification. His intent was to make it a felony for gay men, but a dem woman was grilling him that it should apply to men and women as well, and he agreed. She was giving him a hard time about if the man and woman want anal sex that he would make it felony? He said yes, even if it just accidently slipped... Just how they was going to enforce this law was not discussed, did this law not justify cameras in everyone's bedroom? It got watered down to a misdemeanor, but this law passed in Texas. That it was even discussed should make everyone scared, that it passed should make everyone absolutely scared to death.
It really pisses me off when christians say that this is a christian nation (they say "judeo-christian, but we know the judeo is really meaningless). Uh, hello -- this country was originally colonized by people fleeing the state's imposition of a religion.
Exactly, and people forget that the religion we see today did not exist until Billy Graham started it. Before that religion was more or less a private thing, even the founding fathers stated that religion was between the man and his god. But they have been busy rewriting history, and putting spin on it. People do not know that In God We Trust did not exist on our money until 1954, Under god in the pledge was not there until 1957. This nearly 200 years after the founding of this country, and yet to talk to most people they seem to think it was always there. When I was in school it was "one nation indivisible with liberty and justice for all." Back then it was Eplurabus Unum "from many one". I think if the founding fathers where here today they would be up in arms.
I say if people find comfort in god and religion, good for them. If people want to spend all their free time studying the bible, torah, koran, whatever, go for it. But really, I simply don't get why they feel the need to inject it into the lives of others.
Totally agree with you. That brings up another thought that I just do not understand, if god is all powerful, all knowing, and all loving like we are told, then what need does he have for these self-appointed religious solders? Why does he need anyone to spread the word, when he can just show the word as simply as a wave of the hand? Surely he does not need Pat Robertson, Jerry Farwell, the God Hates Fags guy to help. And such a god, why would he ever need hate and fear to bring us his love, when he could just have his love prove itself. Anyway... that is just another contradiction...
I basically don't believe in god, although at heart I'm an agnostic because I don't rule anything out. I do have one very certain belief about god, though -- if there is a god, she/he/it would NOT be happy at the way many people are using religion to impose their personal choices on others.
Yep, agree. Do I agree that it is possible that a god is out there someplace, yes, I have to agree that such is true. And if he would like to set down sometime and have a cup of coffee and have a long conversation, I would agree he exists, but he would have explaining to do before I would follow him. Jesus would have to explain to me why I should be happy to dash little ones against the rocks, and why I should not question war.
Of course this is all just my opinion and does not mount to a hill of beans, but thanks for letting me have a voice.
Doug