I'm one of those people that some folks would define as a non-believer and some folks would define as a believer. I live in the most uncomfortable of worlds. I understand everyone's arguments. I mean, really understand them.
Welcome quijote! I actually envy you... I really, really can not understand the believers position. Perhaps someone such as you can spoon feed me until I get it?
First, there is no doubt that humanist's are ethical, moral and value human beings; hence, their name. While I might officially be Catholic I'm not an idiot. And, I personally don't behave decently because I'm scared of anybody or anything. I don't see anything Christian in obeying a golden rule because I'm scared to death of the consequences if I don't. The Christian message is treat your neighbor as yourself because that neighbor is you. That's a sprirtual message, not a punitive, judgmental, loveless one.
Can you define "spiritual message" how is that different than just a straight forward message? or is it?
Second, fundamentalist Christians are considered by people like me to be missing the whole point of the original Christian message. They are sinning by making an idol of scripture while not doing justice to their fellow human beings, and are therefore not really Christian. Wanting to be something is not enough to be it. Jesus was about justice. The letter of the law is always, ultimately a limitation on justice. It certainly is a limitation on mercy, which we are also called to do. This is my personal opinion.
One of my biggest faults is when I think Christian I see the Christian Right... Pat Roberson, Jerry Farwell, Fred Phelps... I know there are others, but it seems to me they are condoning by their lack of protest against these monsters. You see, according to them, it is you who is not a Christian. Be that as it may... This is where I get confused, what is the point of the original Christian message, how do I cull out the true message from the message that is poring out of radio and tv?
Third, religious belief is based on mythological stories. People like me know that a myth is not a lie. Myths are greater truths. I had a Christian teacher ask me once: "Does Jesus have to actually have died on the cross then have been literally resurrected for the story to be True?" That question changed my life.
This I just can not understand, how can something not true be Truth? Is that not like saying something is not a fish is a fish? Is not that irrational, where non-A is A? How do you identify anything if law of identity does not mean anything? No myth is not a lie, it is a made up story, Santa Clause is a myth... is it a lie, no if it told as just a story, but it is a lie if it told as the truth, he does not exist in reality, so telling a kid that he had better behave because Santa will not give him any presents, well this is just plain manipulation, plain and simple in my mind... I am wrong?
Religions spring from mythological foundation. That foundation is as true as anything we can know. That's why a certain religion spreads like wildfire. It speaks to the universal human condition. It tells us a truth about ourselves and our place in the universe. Unfortunately, the myth becomes literalized and its truth is lost. But in its pristine form it is TRUE. The Christian message, read mythologically, is true to me and reflects my reality. This is why I believe in it.
What does the words True and Truth mean to you? To me they mean in reality are actual, yet I get the distinct feeling that is not what you mean? I hope...
"Believers" like me think that myth and ritual are necessary to tie us to this existence.
Why? Just by existing are you not tied to this existence? How much more tied can one be?
They tell us where we are and where we are going, if anywhere. Sacred rituals which speak to the contemporary world we live in and reflect the reality we know ground us and propel us through the stages in our lives. They help us become authentic, mature human beings.
I find this very hard to understand. How does a sacred ritual answer the questions of the comtemporary world and how to live in it? I have seen many of these rituals and they are completely unexplainable to me, and have no meaning in the contemporary world.
The lack of ritual for young men in the modern world is the reason so few today become men and seem so alienated. They are missing the psychological and social process prompted by ritual.
I have to disagree, respectfully. The reason that the young men in the modern world are so alienated is they are missing the psychological and social process of having real, available male role heroes who can teach the real world to them. They have only movie stars, and other such irrational sources for their moral guidance. They need men of honor, of integrity, of high moral standard in their lives, but as the world is now, those such people are consumed fighting to make enough to live. These male model heroes need to be able to show them how the reality works, and what honor really is, even if that takes some tough love. An example from the animal world, there was young juvenile male elephants that where killing other animals, raising hell with the young females hurting them. They brought in some old males who put them in their place, and they became the nice young male elephants. I really think our young men need the same thing. Just my opinion...
I think I am Christian, at least culturally. (One person's heresy is another's orthodoxy.) I respect atheists and agnostics and any other thinking person. I have belief and passion for science. My belief is that no Christian is required to ignore science or factual information. No Christian is required to hate reason or non-believers. A Christian can be a skeptic -- about all things. As a mature "Christian" there are times when I belong on this thread of the forum because on that day I don't believe, or at least I make room for the idea that there is no divine.
You are welcome to this thread. I guess to me that when one uses the term "Christian" they make a social contract of being bound by the bible and those that profess to represent it. And that is a big part of my reaction to "Christian" anything. I do not see divine in anything, but man do I see awe inspiring nature in everything.
On my rationalist days I come up against the brick wall of the limits of science
Such as? I agree there are many limits of science, and I do not have a problem with saying "I do not know." However, the idea of Divine Intervention is to label anything science says " I do not know" as god. But that is irrational... if you do not know, you can not know it is god either...
and I remember personal experiences which unequivocally convince me of something called a divine.
Examples? You do not need to answer, I know these things can be terrifically personal.
I think I am a free-thinking Christian, which is not an oxymoron, and there are many more like me. In the final analysis, the Truth is there are things we can and will never know and understand. The Christian message doesn't contradict this.
How can Truth be things we can and will never know and understand? How can you designate it as Truth when you admit not knowing? Doesn't Truth have to be known as true to be truth? This is a very big head scratcher for me...
No one can tell me the rules of being Christian. I have to make my own journey. It's the nature of the beast. I am my own priest. No free human being can be otherwise.
Same here, I am my own minister, this is my own journey. I agree totally.
All I know is that even if it weren't true that Jesus never said a word about homosexuality, never condemned it, I could never disapprove of it when his whole message was God is love, and as entities made in that image we are expected to be similarly godlike - to love each other.
I wished I could believe this. But when I see the actions of the Christian Right, when I read the passages where Jesus preaches hate, murder, and god says he is evil, I have to conclude that even if I believed they existed, I would have to oppose them as being evil. So my question to you is how do you rationalize these passages away? By what criteria do you negate one passage and accept the next?
We are to treasure love, nurture it and make more of it.
Yes, that is my belief, so why do I not see the Christian community doing this? When I read the Christian thread is all about Jesus this, God that, but very little of the actual in the trenches unconditional love. I do not want the love of the Jesus or God I know, they are evil in goodie goodie clothing in my book. When I see people murdered in their name and they not do a thing about it, how can you trust them? When nature unleashes all hell and they do nothing about it, how can you not condemn them? Do we not condemn the man who stands by and does nothing while people die? It all seems conditional on you believing first, convert, then we will accept you as one of us. But, again, I am rather touchy on this subject, and may interject what is not there into it. 'tis the nature of the wounded...
If two men or two women are engaged in love, making a family, bringing compassion and generosity to each other, and in general being what human beings are meant to be to each other I am to respect them, love them and accept them. They fit right into my beloved community.
They sure belong in my beloved community to be sure. This is the kind of world that I would love to be in.
I'd like to be here on non-believing days. It's a place I can fit comfortably, authentically and honestly. On other days, I could come here and authentically love all you mistaken, misdirected, lost non-believers. LOL
Well, you are always welcome, even if you are a mistaken, misdirected, lost believer. <evil grin>