I love all you non-believers.
We love all you believers as well, we just hate the belief... <wink>.
I'm one at least half the time. I have to say this though, just to keep us all clear-eyed and clear-thinking. To be a true skeptic is to also be skeptical about your own beliefs. Skepticism itself cannot exclude itself from the rule of skepticism.
Very true.
That being said, are you interested, Doug, in discussing Brokeback Mountain as an existentialist piece of cinema?
Sure I am up for that. I am not sure what I can add, but what the hey? You will have to define "existentialist" for an answer to that one.
A discussion could also be had about how Brokeback Mountain does not employ Judeo-Christian motifs typically found in many Westerns, if that is true.
Brokeback does not use nearly as many Christian motifs directly as does many Westerns, however, they are a strong underlying message through out this movie. There is fear of anything "not normal" through out the movie, Ennis shows his the most. Only a highly religious nut of a father would drag his sons to see a gruesome murder to prove his point that homosexuality is wrong. Both of our guys seek marriage as way out of the feelings they feel. They assume that a good woman will fix them, yet it does not. Ennis shows that he may have broken through this illusion when Alma wants to go to a church social, and he does not want to hear the fire and brimstone. Yet, Ennis hangs on to the belief that being out will get you tire ironed, and this sick movie proves that he is correct. What a message that is to anyone who has this fear! The message is undeniably that gay people deserve what they get. Once again, only religion teaches that message as just. I feel that both of our guys suffered greatly at the hands of the religious dogma, and hatred to gay people, as we all do.
Non-believers could discuss what the movie means to them in light of their non-belief.
This movie was a real earthshaking monster to me. It drug up such a remembrance of past events in my life that mirror what happened to our guys. This movie brings up those past feelings and slaps you in the face with them. Perhaps it is time to deal with the emotions so hidden away because they just hurt too much at the time to deal with. It was such a shame to loose a loved one, and in such a violent and sick way. While I was never gay bashed, I had a friend that was and he only left the bar I was in a few minutes after me, and that was in a gay part of town... The tire iron fear is very real, and does limit ones ability to be out and free. Now that I am back into the jaws of the devil himself, the bible belt, the tire iron fear is ever present. Yet, this is my home.
Was your non-belief strengthened by this movie?
Not strengthened, but not diminished any either. It just proves, as in real life, that what is is. Ennis, Jack, the fears, the realities, the mountains, the poverty, death, everything happened just by cause and effect, there was no magic, no miracles, just human love and trials. A lot of those trials directly caused by other peoples beliefs, pushed upon innocent others. It would be nice to see a movie where the guys meet, fall in love, have a few struggles, then have a very normal loving life together, and are actually the bedrock romance that others look up to. But, no, like the majority of gay movies the faggots in the end have got to suffer and die. If I had known that was the way this one ended, I very well might not have seen it. Though I am sure I am better off having to deal with my inner demons that this movie drug to the surface. I least I hope so...
What does the movie say about religion, if anything at all?
It says that its got a strangle hold on the morality of right and wrong, and its wrong. It says it's premises are wrong. Though you will never get a believer to see that.
Maybe we could apply secular humanist doctrine/ideas to this film.
I am not sure of what the humanist doctrine/ideas are. However, I would love to see a world of where people was not defined by a label, but instead defined as loving, conscious humans.
I have a problem with the first tent scene, where it looks like Jack put Ennis in a very tough spot. I would have rather seen that scene as Jack saying, "Ennis is that what I think it is?" " Ah, sorry" Ennis shuffles away a little. Then Jack reaches over to take Ennis's hand to show him that there was nothing to be sorry about. None of the this extreme pull back. For as the scene is now, it seems to say that even though Ennis pulls back extremely, his actions actually means "Yes", that is a stupid standard to live to. IMHO. I can see very scared straight men... this is just the proof they need to justify the illusion that all gay men are after them.
I loved the second tent scene and it showed way more of the love that I think should exist between lovers. I love the scenes of them holding each other... god I miss those days... I miss not being greeted with a hug and a kiss, I miss not having whole afternoons holding my love and watching a movie. I miss having someone to enjoy talking to, to care for, and to care for me. Yep... this movie drug up a lot of miss, the same miss I see in Ennis's eyes in the closing scene. It drug up the fight we had before he died, as Ennis and Jack, how if I had just been able to understand I would have done his last days so very different... regret for something that I had no power over... Yes, I am crying again... damn...
Today I decided to go through one of the bags of clothes of his. I look at them and remember him wearing them, most of them make me chuckle. He loved the strange in tee shirts. He was part of a group called "Emerson St Ladies garden club", which is what their tee shirts said... even though there was not a lady in the group. I am kinda thinking of putting a couple of his items together in a frame so I can put them up on my wall. A lot of it I threw away today, as that time is gone, so very gone.
I also looked up to see when the gay rodeo is that I used to go to. July 7th... maybe, just maybe I will make an effort to go, it would be good to see gay men again, perhaps stumble upon an old friend or two. Perhaps even stumble back into our old bar, I see it still exists.
I have a problem with Jack's complaining about the job that he agreed to do. If it was going to be such a problem he should not have taken it, or as Ennis says, stand it. I have not problem with them trading jobs, but they should have honored their the jobs they agreed to do, as best as they could. Perhaps they did...
I see both of our guys not able to listen or talk things out very well. Just one example is when Jack suggests Ennis needs to move, maybe to Texas, the rant that Ennis went on had nothing to do with what Jack suggested. Jack should have stopped him then and there, and had him explain his jumping to the conclusions he did. Nor does Jack listen to Ennis when Ennis tells him it is not going to be that way, Jack needed to find a way to satisfy Ennis's need to be safe, even if that was only in Ennis's imagination. Which the story line tells us later it was not. Perhaps Jack needed to rent a ranch and have Ennis as the main ranch hand... The vast majority of their problems was this lack of communication, this not exposing the illusions that the other could see in his lover, they both had the opportunity to dispel the illusions of the other. Of course, we are expected to believe that they never talked about much during those week fishing trips, which I find a little hard to imagine.
Or, it would be very interesting just to continue hearing why people profess non-belief and how they got to the place they are. That is profoundly enthralling as well. I think there are many non-believers here because there are many thinking people here. They are fascinating, one and all. I get to hear from believers all the time. It is a rare opportunity to get the infidel's point of view from the infidel's own mouth. LOL I imagine you have as many different opinions and experiences and philosophies as Christians do.
Perhaps, I do not know... I am just an infidel afterall... <wink>
I sure wished we could get this thread moved up to the same folder as the believers, my guess is many non-believers look there, see they are not represented and move on. Just a thought...