Moreover, there is no way this movie implies that "no" means "yes." Jack's got Ennis figured out and knows exactly what Ennis means. "No" means "I'm scared shitless even though I want you as much as you want me." "No" means, "please don't make me love you." "No" means "I am over the moon for you but I don't know what to do with this feeling."
Exactly, no means yes... I do not play these games, they are only a path to hurt. I was so very proud of Jack not starting it the second night, or the kissing later after Ennis wed, honoring Ennis's right to no. Ennis was making it very difficult to live, with his "come here, come here, go away, go away" game. If you have ever loved one of those, it will make you insane. Yep, had one for a time until I kicked his ass out, I never cried as many tears and hurt more than with that idiot.
I just do not like the first nights actions by Jack simply because I did not see any reason for him to assume Ennis was into anything. Maybe I missed the gaydar thing, I never was any good at that. I used to have friends that was very good at that, wished someone gave lessons...
Ennis' subsequent actions show Jack was right.
And if he was wrong? Is this not exactly what we see in straight movies with women that is so damaging? Is this not the image that straight men fear that the gay guy will hit on them?
Neither is the scene proof to all straight men that gay men are after them. Holy cow.
The two are straight looking, acting men what other conclusion can they make? Though this is minor "a" point, not "the" point. Do not sweat it.
The ensuing deep, moving and profound love these two find for each other proves this movie can't be about a stereotypical gay man attempting to seduce a typical straight guy.
Yeah, there is the rub, as long as the straight guy can tell the gay guy from the rest he can steer clear of him , or threaten him, but when he suddenly discovers that he can not tell them apart for any other guy, then all guys can be a threat. And you see that as a part of our society now, fear to hug, to show any emotion another man, because some other guy might mistake it as a clue for gayness. It makes it hell for the closeted gay.
If the movie is misconstrued, the fault lays at the feet of the brain dead straight guy who bought the movie ticket. Dude, it's time to watch this movie with your objective scientist's hat on. No preconceived notions belong in the screening room. No modern sexual politics belong in the theater.
My objective scientist's hat is always on... <evil grin> I thought you wanted to discuss this film in the light of the atheist perspective. Also, I tend to look from the 10,000 foot level, rather than at the eye level. At eye level I agree with you.
As for this movie being about how "faggots in the end have to suffer and die," I protest such a notion. Not all homosexual deaths are equal. This is a point where many in the gay community go off the rails. When the death of a gay character results from a movie studio's cowardice, callowness or cynicism, then we have the basis for offense. But, dude, when the art form requires it as the basis for its truth, then there can be no legitimate offense. Jack isn't dead because he's gay. He's dead because this movie is a tragedy. If he had been a straight woman, the straight woman would have had to have died in the end to be truthful to the revelation of the art form. The movie would not have worked in its significant and meaningfully artistic way if Jack had lived. It would have been another Hollywood mediocrity. We'd all be saying, "Who cares?" If they ride off into the sunset together, it's unbelieveable camp. If they merely break up, what is the point? I choose Truth over what's politically correct or "inoffensive" anyday. The art determines the outcome, not the dogma of the gay community. And, I would say the same thing if any other minority or feminists or anyone else made an equivalent point about their particular group having to die in a movie.
I agree, but man, oh man, I was not prepared to live this death. For some reason I had it in my head this was a "love story", not a "love tragedy", is that not what they said over and over again? These guys are as real to me as anyone I have ever known or loved, so the pain is just as powerful, this movie is just too real, it feels like I have lived it a number of times and ways. My problem, I will stand it like I always do. I just loved the way that "Making Love" ended, that in the end all would be ok. So few gay movies end with an ending saying it will all work out, love will win out.
One final defense of the movie and Christianity: my "belief" is not in conflict with anything, and I mean anything, this movie has to say. It is human, humane, compassionate, loving, accepting and tolerant. It does not give succor to the violent, the prejudiced, the intolerant, or the unjust. It is fierce in its defense of love and in its love for justice.
God I wished I could see that... It is human, absolutely. It is humane, except for the intolerable punishment of both our guys for being different, that punishment self inflicted. It is compassionate, except for the extreme pain inflicted upon the women, upon our guys with their hiding and fearing being found out. It is loving. It is accepting, except for Ennis and his denial, for Alma and her feelings of betrayal, except for LD and his superiority, Jack's Dad and his sickness, and the fear of rejection from society in general. It is tolerant of little, the love has to be hidden, the time together has to be taken in secret, fear is everywhere. It does give in to the violent, the prejudiced, the intolerant and the unjust in what Ennis's Father did, what Jack's attackers did, and the fear around all of that. It is fierce in showing love being the meaning of life itself, that one must strive for it, but it does not defend it, nor is there justice, just like real life.
That being said, Doug baby, I am sorry about the sorrow and regret this movie has evoked in you. I am even more sorry that you have had such a personal loss. Any anger, guilt, or unconsolable loss you feel is a natural response to this movie. It doesn't mean the movie is maleficent. It means the movie got to the truth of things. Darlin', the truth of things is hard. The truth of things hurts like a son of a bitch. The only cure is to dive right in and feel it, invite it, accept it, and move right on along to the next step. Fighting it is no way to bring peace. But, then you've got to be done with the pain. Wear it, but don't drown in it. You've still gotta lotta livin' to do. (Yes, I'm an Elvis fan.)
I am sorry too about the sorrow and regret this movie has evoked, I am so sorry for myself and Ennis, we both suffered the loss, and the last fight before it, and now live with the guilt and extreme loss.
I am sorry Ennis lost most of his chance at true love because of the internal demons that was forced upon him, just as I am sorry for mine.
I have anger that we as gay people have it so much harder to find love than straight people, they can not hold 50% of their relationships together and they have every conceivable thing going for them, and then wonder why we have such a hard time with relationships when each and every step is challenged, from outside and inside.
I have some guilt in that I did not trust my love over his doctor, I choose the "expert" and caused a lot of pain for the both of us before his death.
My inconsolable loss is the potential that was there, the love that is forever gone, the missing...
I feel for Ennis, yet damn him, I would have dropped him long before Jack did, but that is now, back when I held on for dear life, I had to be hurt over and over to learn my lesson, and I can tell you it still hurts. I came to a point I wonder if love was worth it. The truth is this movie is way, way too close to home and am having a hell of a time dealing with it. I would much rather it was more of a dream come true love story rather than the nightmare that one can never awaken from love story.
I would remind you of Christ's love and mercy, but what would an infidel do with them? Besides I don't feel qualified to speak for Jesus or God. I'll just send you my kind thoughts as one human to another, because since I saw a certain film classic I feel your heartache as my own.
The infidel would wish he could see and experience Christ's love and mercy, so he could accept it. Instead, of course, he sees man using Christ, God, and the Bible as a weapon. One that cuts to the quick, and never heals. One that steals love and makes it dirty, evil, one that makes fear righteous, has no mercy, and is relentless. How in the hell do I get over seeing that? I can not pretend it is something it is not. So the kind thoughts are very welcome. Kind and warm thoughts back at you.
