The Ultimate Brokeback Forum

Author Topic: Did Jack Quit Ennis?  (Read 462861 times)

Offline Marge_Innavera

  • Obsessed
  • *****
  • Posts: 3612
  • I'M WITH HER
    • Gift of Exile
Re: Did Jack Quit Ennis?
« Reply #6735 on: December 07, 2011, 11:33:09 AM »
Yes, that's true..... and, he also had promised to marry alma.

They were engaged, so he couldn't have backed out of it. del mar, a man of his word.

In a setting where his sexuality was accepted, I don't think being a man of his word would have prevented Ennis from breaking his engagement.  Which we can assume Alma wouldn't be happy about, but being sure that this is really what you want to do is one of the reasons for engagements, and she most likely would have gotten over it and found someone else.  She certainly would have been spared a lot of disillusionment and heartache later on.

In earlier centuries, Ennis could have been sued for breach of contract but in the 1963 context I think he originally assumed that getting married and having kids what just what everybody did.
" 'Red' states are the meth labs of democracy."

Offline fofol

  • Always
  • Obsessed
  • *****
  • Posts: 1880
  • nice day for a white wedding
Re: Did Jack Quit Ennis?
« Reply #6736 on: December 07, 2011, 12:20:18 PM »
In a setting where his sexuality was accepted, I don't think being a man of his word would have prevented Ennis from breaking his engagement.  Which we can assume Alma wouldn't be happy about, but being sure that this is really what you want to do is one of the reasons for engagements, and she most likely would have gotten over it and found someone else.  She certainly would have been spared a lot of disillusionment and heartache later on.

In earlier centuries, Ennis could have been sued for breach of contract but in the 1963 context I think he originally assumed that getting married and having kids what just what everybody did.

  And that's the biggest lie of all - everybody's heterosexual.  This assumption of universal heterosexuality is precisely why we can't really get upset that Jack lies to Ennis directly about his sex life, and why Ennis's marriage to Alma is tragic - there was no 'official' voice, from parents to the police to the courts, that knew any different, even though the homosexual people could not live their entire lives acting against their nature...  "Society," judicial and executive and gossipy, KNEW that all homosexuality was a 'perversion' of heterosexuality, i.e., that all male homosexual activity could only be considered as separate acts done by heterosexual men, as opposed to the truth that homosexuality is a core condition just like heterosexuality, different primarily in object stimulus.  The myth of universal heterosexuality is also the only support that the big-box religions use to condemn homosexuals - it is considered primitive and unsupportable notion these days, thank you very much.
he felt he could paw the white out of the moon

Offline janjo

  • Obsessed
  • *****
  • Posts: 11113
Re: Did Jack Quit Ennis?
« Reply #6737 on: December 07, 2011, 12:29:32 PM »
What a fabulous posting, Mike.
The essential truth that just won't go away, however much some bigots want it to.
Brokeback short stories at storybyjanjo.livejournal.com

"Are birds free from the chains of the skyway?"
Ballad in plain D: Bob Dylan

Offline ChangeINeed

  • Obsessed
  • *****
  • Posts: 750
  • Waiting To Be Found...
Re: Did Jack Quit Ennis?
« Reply #6738 on: December 07, 2011, 01:16:10 PM »
Very interesting discussion guys!

IMO the point isn't whether they were lying (to themselves,to each other etc) or not. What they did isn't exactly "lying" in my book. The center of the short story and the film is silence for me. A loud silence forged and emerging from fear: fear of death and being different for Ennis, fear of abandonment or even violence for Jack if his lover finds out he has sex with other men, fear of stigma and poverty for Alma, fear of failure and "daddy was right" for Lureen, fear of breaking delicate balances for the children. Therefore they prefer silence than acknowledging the pink elephant in the room.
It's characteristic that when Alma feels secure enough and thous less fearful (she has a new husband, a decent house, some money and a baby on the way) she breaks the silence and the pretense falls apart.. No need for more lies for her... (if you prefer lying over silence)
Just my thoughts...

I have fucked a lot of people. Literally & metaphorically. I don't regret the literally.

Live, work, fight. Never give up.

Only rock never disappointed me.

For J & E who felt like that:

"I will never find a sea to live, with a soul of fish inside a catís body"

Offline royandronnie

  • Regards from my bit of the Mountain
  • Global Moderator
  • Obsessed
  • ******
  • Posts: 5003
  • They existed in our hearts, and always will.
Re: Did Jack Quit Ennis?
« Reply #6739 on: December 07, 2011, 07:24:17 PM »
Very interesting discussion guys!

IMO the point isn't whether they were lying (to themselves,to each other etc) or not. What they did isn't exactly "lying" in my book. The center of the short story and the film is silence for me. A loud silence forged and emerging from fear: fear of death and being different for Ennis, fear of abandonment or even violence for Jack if his lover finds out he has sex with other men, fear of stigma and poverty for Alma, fear of failure and "daddy was right" for Lureen, fear of breaking delicate balances for the children. Therefore they prefer silence than acknowledging the pink elephant in the room.
It's characteristic that when Alma feels secure enough and thous less fearful (she has a new husband, a decent house, some money and a baby on the way) she breaks the silence and the pretense falls apart.. No need for more lies for her... (if you prefer lying over silence)
Just my thoughts...



This is very good.
"…in the family homestead of his dead lover, the shirts they wore while cowboying together long before: shabby denim and weary cotton, wrapped in each other's arms." Like this. Always.

He either fears his fate too much
Or his deserts are small
Who dares not put it to the touch
To win or lose it all

Offline fofol

  • Always
  • Obsessed
  • *****
  • Posts: 1880
  • nice day for a white wedding
Re: Did Jack Quit Ennis?
« Reply #6740 on: December 08, 2011, 06:21:24 AM »
Very interesting discussion guys!

IMO the point isn't whether they were lying (to themselves,to each other etc) or not. What they did isn't exactly "lying" in my book. The center of the short story and the film is silence for me. A loud silence forged and emerging from fear: fear of death and being different for Ennis, fear of abandonment or even violence for Jack if his lover finds out he has sex with other men, fear of stigma and poverty for Alma, fear of failure and "daddy was right" for Lureen, fear of breaking delicate balances for the children. Therefore they prefer silence than acknowledging the pink elephant in the room.
It's characteristic that when Alma feels secure enough and thous less fearful (she has a new husband, a decent house, some money and a baby on the way) she breaks the silence and the pretense falls apart.. No need for more lies for her... (if you prefer lying over silence)
Just my thoughts...



   This post is also very interesting: one of the first thoughts I had about the film came as a question.  As I was
Very interesting discussion guys!

IMO the point isn't whether they were lying (to themselves,to each other etc) or not. What they did isn't exactly "lying" in my book. The center of the short story and the film is silence for me. A loud silence forged and emerging from fear: fear of death and being different for Ennis, fear of abandonment or even violence for Jack if his lover finds out he has sex with other men, fear of stigma and poverty for Alma, fear of failure and "daddy was right" for Lureen, fear of breaking delicate balances for the children. Therefore they prefer silence than acknowledging the pink elephant in the room.
It's characteristic that when Alma feels secure enough and thous less fearful (she has a new husband, a decent house, some money and a baby on the way) she breaks the silence and the pretense falls apart.. No need for more lies for her... (if you prefer lying over silence)
Just my thoughts...



   Great post!  My first reaction to the film was a question - how different would these lives have been had they been able to talk with one another?  No question in my mind that this was a realistic take on closeted gay love.  That said, lying is giving someone else information that is not true, or witholding such information as would change an opinion or action.  By staying away from making a judgment based on that bare-bones definition of lying, we can still see that telling the truth is usually less complicated, but that telling the truth was impossible for these guys at times d/t the times and places in which they lived.
he felt he could paw the white out of the moon

Offline Marge_Innavera

  • Obsessed
  • *****
  • Posts: 3612
  • I'M WITH HER
    • Gift of Exile
Re: Did Jack Quit Ennis?
« Reply #6741 on: December 08, 2011, 08:29:51 AM »
there was no 'official' voice, from parents to the police to the courts, that knew any different, even though the homosexual people could not live their entire lives acting against their nature...  "Society," judicial and executive and gossipy, KNEW that all homosexuality was a 'perversion' of heterosexuality, i.e., that all male homosexual activity could only be considered as separate acts done by heterosexual men, as opposed to the truth that homosexuality is a core condition just like heterosexuality, different primarily in object stimulus. 

Right.

And if Ennis was a more outgoing sort and had actually sought out some advice after that first summer, it's likely that even the most well-meaning person would have told him to do exactly what he did -- 'marry that nice girl you're engaged to, have some kids; this is something a lot of young men go through and grow out of.'
" 'Red' states are the meth labs of democracy."

Offline B.W.

  • Obsessed
  • *****
  • Posts: 1360
Re: Did Jack Quit Ennis?
« Reply #6742 on: July 07, 2013, 03:52:36 AM »
Yeah, I read something from an LGBT Adventist newsletter by clergy and educators of the SDA Church where someone wrote in one article that their god may 'not' have intended a variation in sexual orientation and that sex is 'only' for married heterosexuals. Now do you see why I am an atheist, partly?  I would not worship a god who did not intend a variation in sexuality or one who says that only heterosexual married couples can have sex. That is not fair. Such a god would be evil. Well, the Abrahamic god endorses slavery, why don't they support slavery?  Because they know it's morally wrong. The Jewish and Christian texts contain views that are not appropriate for today's world and it's views on romantic and sexually active relationships between men are just plain wrong and that's where I stand.


I don't believe Jack quit Ennis, no I doubt that.  I don't believe it.  I refuse to believe it.

Offline janjo

  • Obsessed
  • *****
  • Posts: 11113
Re: Did Jack Quit Ennis?
« Reply #6743 on: July 07, 2013, 03:36:47 PM »
So do I! I do however believe that Annie Proulx likes to put a twist in her tales, just to make us jump a little.
Brokeback short stories at storybyjanjo.livejournal.com

"Are birds free from the chains of the skyway?"
Ballad in plain D: Bob Dylan

Offline B.W.

  • Obsessed
  • *****
  • Posts: 1360
Re: Did Jack Quit Ennis?
« Reply #6744 on: July 08, 2013, 02:18:30 AM »
I think Jack loved Ennis too much.  He couldn't make it on seeing him only a few short times a year.  Having sex a few times a year wasn't enough either.  Romantic and sexual repression is harmful which somewhat how my LGBT Adventist posts ties into this discussion.  Repressing yourself for exterior reasons is never healthy.  Whether for social or religious reasons. It's destructive. Jack and Ennis hid their love from the world because of how scared they were about what others would think of it.  Why should they really care what the rest of the world thinks anyways when you really look t it ?  The dangers involved of course are the most obvious and are understandable.  I believe that Jack and Ennis' internal homophobia was influenced by the external homophobia of society.  I do think was frustrated with Ennis' fear and with his own but he knew why Ennis felt the way he did.  He understood Ennis' fear.  Jack was more care-free.  He seemed to be more of an independent spirit, he didn't care what others thought of him. He's admirable in his own way.  I don't care what anyone else things of me.  I posted a joke in the Humor forum that was not appropriate and was wrong , I didn't mean for it to be in 'poor taste' or to hurt anyone.  There is a difference between being sensitive towards how you treat others and not giving a damn about what others think of you.  BBM is alot like that.  I think Jack understood why Ennis was so scared to build a life with him.  I think Jack knew Ennis wanted to be with him but he wasn't going to push Ennis into it. That would have been wrong.  I think he still held hope that Ennis would one day decide to make a life with Jack.


I just think the murder of Earl crippilized him so much.  That love Earl experienced with Rich cost that old man is life.  They were the 'joke of the town' but they didn't care what others thought of them and perhaps that's one of the reasons why Earl was killed. Perhaps they decided to 'teach him a lesson' about why he should care what bigots think.  I don't.  I am a heterosexual ally of the LGBT community, a biracial woman and an atheist.  I try not to give a flying fuck what others think about me. I shouldn't care what others think as this is my life, not theirs.  They can live their life whatever way they want and if they want to be a bigot, that's their choice. The consequences of their bigotry are for them to reap.  I wonder what became of Rich? I think that Earl and Rich's love must have been very strong for them to be open about it.  Ennis and Jack's love was immensely strong. Nothing could come between them. Not even death if you ask me. 

The love that Ennis and Jack shared will live on in Ennis' heart for the rest of his life. That's what kept him alive and going throughout the whole movie.  Just like Rose Dewitt Bukater/ Rose Dawson/ Rose Calvert from the 1997 blockbuster film " TITANIC",  after Jack Dawson died on the night that the Titanic sank taking 1,500 lives with her on what was the luxury liner's first and only voyage.  Sure the romance between Rose Dewitt Bukater and Jack Dawson only lasted a few days and that adds a more fairytale-like quality to the film which is based on an actual event but that is one of the things that I can appreciate about James Cameron's film even if no one else does.  The real ship  also has an element of fantasy to it that I just can't quite explain. I know James Cameron's 1997 blockbuster is not the most accurate telling of the real story but that's okay because no story based on a real person, place or event is going to be 100% accurate.  It's the most popular film version of the story and I am glad that Cameron decided to focus on a simple fictional love story because he made it more relatable for a new generation , there are just too many good stories from the real people to chose from and I believe Cameron's film has inspired alot of people to fall in love with the real story of the Titanic as well.  I know I have. Another way " BROKEBACK MOUNTAIN" and " TITANIC" touch me so deeply is that  Rose Dewitt Bukater was able to move on because of her love for Jack Dawson because he saved her life in so many ways.  Rose's life was changed for the better because of Jack Dawson.


 I believe the same is true for Ennis Del Mar and Jack Twist.  These two men lived better lives because they had each other as difficult as it was fo them.  I believe Ennis live changed for the better in a way because of the love he shared with Jack Twist.

Offline doodler

  • Obsessed
  • *****
  • Posts: 15461
Re: Did Jack Quit Ennis?
« Reply #6745 on: September 02, 2013, 01:34:24 PM »
I think, had the story gone on longer, Jack would have quit Ennis. He was already realizing he was never going to change him. He already knew that no matter how much he loved Ennis, he was always going to be denied, dismissed, marginalized. Self preservation would have forced him to move on. With regret and sorrow and later, fond memories of their few good times, Jack would have quit the situation.
In 2010, 606 people (all ages) were accidentally killed by guns.
Almost 3000 teens (15-19) die in traffic accidents a year.
1100 kids under 19 drown each year.
44 kids under 5 died of heat stroke in hot cars in 2013.
HIGH school sports account for 1.2 million trips to the ER annually.