The Ultimate Brokeback Forum

Author Topic: Reactions to Brokeback by friends, family & audiences  (Read 619114 times)

Offline paintedshoes

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Re: Audience, Friends and Family Reactions to the Movie
« Reply #615 on: February 13, 2006, 08:19:03 PM »
Dearest Cara,
Some people like your sister-in-law are so rigid in their beliefs that no one can change them.  Joetheone and bluemoon both make excellent and valid point and I strongly recommend that you show her both of these posts.  But...they will not change her mind.  Nothing will.  What you have to decide is whether or not the fight is worth the pain that this is obviously causing you.  I don't know that it is.  There are people in my life (relatives) who believe as your sister-in-law.  Nothing will change them either.  Is your sanity worth a fight with people who have no tolerance? NO.  Live YOUR life.  Accept that she will never adjust her thinking and don't waste your time, your heart on a really unnecessary fight.  Agree to disagree.  If that seems trite, well, maybe it is, but sometimes we just have to give up the lost causes.  If she challenges you again, ignore her.  Delete her e-mails or say thanks for the comments, I have to go now.  Passivity has it's uses.  Just remember that there are people in the world who know the right, who understand who YOU are and care. We are here.  Stay here in your home, where you belong.  Let the rest of it go, honey, for your sake.
All love, from your sister!
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cyoung

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Re: Audience, Friends and Family Reactions to the Movie
« Reply #616 on: February 13, 2006, 08:24:23 PM »
Thanks, all, for your replies. Part of me wants to just let it go, but the "fighter against injustice" part of me wants to challenge her. The only problem (and it's a biggie) is that I don't have much emotional energy right now.

Cara

Offline paintedshoes

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Re: Audience, Friends and Family Reactions to the Movie
« Reply #617 on: February 13, 2006, 08:28:33 PM »
Then, honey, just let it go for now.  There is no law that says that you have to fight the good fight (and it IS) today or tomorrow.  Husband your strength.  Give it time.  Rest.  You are safe here to help you til you can fight if that is what you choose.  Know that we all love you and are on your side, whatever you decide to do, dear, dear, sister of my heart.
"Miracles do happen, dear friend(s).  Miracles are real."- Boris 
"There are only two things we know: the cosmos exists and we are imbedded within the cosmos.  Everything else is speculation and discovery."- Caithness's dad
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Offline MellorSJ

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Re: Audience, Friends and Family Reactions to the Movie
« Reply #618 on: February 13, 2006, 08:28:57 PM »
I was planning to take a break from the forum -- I've been spending way too much time here and getting too emotionally involved, and I felt I needed to regain some balance. So I signed off earlier today, but then, this afternoon, I received the following e-mail from my sister-in-law.
Cara,

I'm so sorry your sister-in-law is so (I search for the word here) threatened. For that is what I think it is.  Everywhere in her message in fear; in fact, there is nothing but fear--and anger.

And that's my first reaction too.  Anger, with a desire to lash out at her, and to answer each one of her (sorry) asinine questions.  Of course, that would be self-defeating.

I reckon (from her fears) that she has children.  How would she feel if one of her children were gay?   Perhaps she would blame Brokeback.  But if we could put that aside for a second, maybe "How would you feel if one of your children were gay?"  "Would you want him/her to live without love?"  "Would you want him/her not to have the option to have children, and share the joy you have?"  My point is that answering her questions directly cannot work because it sets up a confrontation, as do rhetorical ones.  But putting her in the place of answering the question for herself (as Brokeback did--less of an "agenda-movie" would be hard to find, which is its very genius), has a hope of making her feel the sickening impact of her views.

Your challenge is not to fight her, but to engage her and make answer her own questions, not in the abstract, but for her own children, whom she clearly wants to "protect" at all costs.  And then sit back and let her wallow in her answers.  Like Brokeback, the impact is felt less in the moment, but later.  Perhaps when she discovers she little sweet boy is rather enchanted by another.  (Sorry.  My own anger resurfacing.) 

If she answers without compassion or empathy, then you have her measure.  I'm so sorry you have to deal with this.

-- stephen
PS In answer to the "agenda" question, I have to say No.  If I tell you a story by selecting facts that suit you (Fahrenheit 411 springs to mind), sure, that's an agenda.  But if you provide unvarnished facts, for there *are* people like J&E, and you do not comment one way or the other, no, it's not an agenda.  (If it were, any argument that intends to prove a point would be an agenda.  ("Things fall towards each other."  "You have a gravity agenda!")

Offline Timothy

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Re: Audience, Friends and Family Reactions to the Movie
« Reply #619 on: February 13, 2006, 08:29:06 PM »
Ah, Cara, I feel for you. 

If it's any help, here's some advice:

Quote
Cara, do you agree that there is a gay agenda? How could you not?

Yes there is a gay agenda and it is this:  that gay people have exactly the same rights (neither more nor less) as heterosexual people.  Equal.  Fair.  No special privileges or rewards for being heterosexual or for being homosexual.

Pretty scary, huh?  Treating everyone the same without rewarding your sister-in-law because she happened to be born straight. 

(yeah, yeah, I know.. .she'll say gay people "aren't born that way" but so far all of the genetic research says that genes play a part along with inter-uteri hormones)


Quote
Can't gay people already do what they want in the bedroom?

Only since June 26, 2003 have gay people had the right to do what they want in the bedroom.  And the religious right still claims that was judicial activism and wrong and bad and should be overturned.  Ask her if she thinks homosexuality should be recriminalized.

Quote
Can't they create a legal document that allows their partner to receive an inheritance if they die?

Well, actually, no.  Not like she supposes.  If her husband dies, she inherits.  If a gay person dies, their partner can become a beneficiary but the estate is subject to taxes and the will can be challenged by relatives.

Quote
Can't they also have a legal document drawn up that allows their partner to see them in the hospital if they're in intensive care?

It depends on the State.  Some good Christians have passed anti-gay marriage laws that seem to invalidate hospital visitation (Nebraska for example).

Besides, why should gay people have to spend thousands of dollars to get what she can get for free?  Does your sister-in-law think that is fair?  Is she willing to do unto others as she'd have them do unto her; or does she think she deserves special treatment for free that gay people should have to hire an attorney to get?

She seems pretty upset about education because the schools aren't teaching her religion.  She seems to think there's some gay religion.  That's delusional.


Quote
But I still think that it could be possible to not live out your urges if you're gay.  Maybe they could live a fulfilling life in touch with God, not acting out their same sex attraction.  The personal testimonies of people who have turned away from it are real.

Sure, someone could choose celibacy.  But it is incredibly arrogant of your sister-in-law to decide for them.  What she forgets is that "turning away from it" doesn't mean they're straight.  They're just choosing to repress their lives.  She has decided that the appropriate thing for gay people is to remain alone and never have either a sexual experience or a love relationship in their lives.  Ever.  And that is not only presumption, it's downright cruel.

Fortunately, my church doesn't teach that.  If they did, I'd have to question how I could worship a Deity that was heartless and cruel.  I would have to find a church that didn't think that it was God's will for people to live without love, ever.

And finally:

Quote
Is it possible that some gays hate PFOX because it touches a raw nerve? It challenges the assumption that if you have gay urges, then you're gay and that's just who you are.

No.  Actually if there were an organization that gave support to people unhappy being gay and who wanted to live celibate, there would be no problem.  That's not what PFOX is.

They are a political lobby group.

All that they do (yes, all) is to lobby organizations and political bodies to enact anti-gay positions. 

What I find most interesting about their claims is that they say it is possible to not be gay.  But then they say that there is persecution against ex-gays.  But wouldn't those "not gay" ex-gays be straight?  There certainly isn't discrimination against straight people.  It's a bizarre circular way of thinking which has nothing at all (truly nothing) to do with helping anyone and has everything to do with politics and lobbying.

From your sister-in-law's e-mail it's pretty clear that she thinks of gay people as "them".  And she doesn't like "them" and frankly doesn't care whether she's fair or reasonable or just. 

But she's not content with supporting inequality and discrimination.  She also wants absolved from any criticism about it.  She want to simultaneously be anti-gay and also not be called a bigot or homophobe.

Why?  If she want to support bigotry, why not be proud to be called a bigot?  If you want preferential treatment because you aren't gay, why not be proud to be called homophobic.  If you think of gay people as "other" and want to actively deny them rights because you disapprove, why not be proud to be call a hater. 

Because deep inside she knows she's wrong.  She knows it isn't right to hate.  She knows it's wrong to make one set of rules for herself and another for gay people.  And she just doesn't want to confront it.

cyoung

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Re: Audience, Friends and Family Reactions to the Movie
« Reply #620 on: February 13, 2006, 08:38:43 PM »
I know this is coming from anger, but I'm tempted to just reply, "Why the F- did you even see the movie with me, then? Why did you WANT to see the movie?" I sure as heck didn't drag her to it kicking & screaming. But now this.

When I re-read the e-mail, I realized that the writing style sounds more like that of my b-i-l than my s-i-l. They share an e-mail account. I think he either helped her write it or wrote it for her (let's hope it was at least with her permission). A lot of this stuff I've heard from HIM before, but not from her.

Cara

Offline Lance

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Re: Audience, Friends and Family Reactions to the Movie
« Reply #621 on: February 13, 2006, 08:41:01 PM »
Cara, your sister-in-law is beyond reason; she does not believe in reason as a way of finding truth. she has adopted a system of belief created by someone else and has not worked it out on her own.

if she thinks that equal rights is the gay agenda, then tell her that the agenda of the founding fathers of the United States of America was equal rights for all humans. it is the very foundation of America.  if she does not believe in equal rights she is not an American, no matter what she calls herself.


''I don't dare think that it's my job to change a person's sexual orientation.''
a person so arrogant and conceited so as to believe that their own belief system is the only correct one would dare anything. she certainly dares plenty of other shamefully wrong restrictions on other people's behaviour.

her lack of sympathy for other humans is the very thing that demonstrates that she does not follow the teachings of Jesus, that she is not a Christian, no matter what she calls herself or her particular religious sect.

yes i am really pissed off at such ignorant arrogance as she displays in virtually every phrase.
May the bridges I burn light the way forward.

Offline bluemoon

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Re: Audience, Friends and Family Reactions to the Movie
« Reply #622 on: February 13, 2006, 08:43:07 PM »
Hi, Cara, whether the email comes from your b-i-l or s-i-l, does it really matter?  As paintedshoes pointed out, you have to decide whether you are ready to take this fight.

Personally, I just love Timothy's response.  It is right on the money.

cyoung

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Re: Audience, Friends and Family Reactions to the Movie
« Reply #623 on: February 13, 2006, 08:43:38 PM »
Then, honey, just let it go for now.  There is no law that says that you have to fight the good fight (and it IS) today or tomorrow.  Husband your strength.  Give it time.  Rest.  You are safe here to help you til you can fight if that is what you choose.  Know that we all love you and are on your side, whatever you decide to do, dear, dear, sister of my heart.

Thank you for your kindness and support!  :)

Cara

Offline MellorSJ

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Re: Audience, Friends and Family Reactions to the Movie
« Reply #624 on: February 13, 2006, 08:44:01 PM »
Ah, Cara, I feel for you. 

My! You all have been busy while I was composing my reply.

I stick by my advice that answering her question is not gonna work.  It sets up confrontation and it does not use her strength in your favor.  Your SIL's strength is her love for her children. Make that work for you.

Timothy's arguments (I quoted only the first line for reference) are cogent, and I agree with them.  But I think your SIL's heart rules her brain, and direct appeals to it can only fail, though they're a good back up for her limited moments of lucidity.

(BTW, PFOX's arguments do not touch my nerve.  I spent the majority of my life not acting on my gay impulses, mostly out of fear (much as I imagine Ennis would have lived had he not met Jack.)  They don't go away.  PFOX's arguments are based on a false premise--that refusing to act on the impulse is the same as rejecting it.  Believe me, I tried to do just that.  Won't work, because it is--by definition--how I feel.)

Offline Humanist

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Re: Audience, Friends and Family Reactions to the Movie
« Reply #625 on: February 13, 2006, 08:44:08 PM »
Cara,

They must be handing out this Gay Agenda in churches across the country because every Christian who talks about it sounds exactly the same!  Here is my advice: DON'T BOTHER.  Arguing with a christian conservative is as productive as arguing with any other type of schizophrenic.  You are dealing with the kind of people who think men once lived inside a whale, donkeys could talk and men could walk on water.  How do you expect such a person to be capable of rational thought?  If she sends you links to ex-gay web sites, I suggest you e-mail her a link to the following great site that I would recommend:   www.nobeliefs.com   

Good luck!



I was planning to take a break from the forum -- I've been spending way too much time here and getting too emotionally involved, and I felt I needed to regain some balance. So I signed off earlier today, but then, this afternoon, I received the following e-mail from my sister-in-law. I need some help in how to respond, or advice on whether I should respond at all. Do I let it go, or try to address her questions and challenge her statements? I was debating whether to post this e-mail, but even thinking about how to respond makes my brain hurt, and I would appreciate your thoughts or help. This is the continuation of the earlier e-mail discussions I was having with her after we saw the movie (discussed several pages back in this thread).

Cara

Here's the e-mail:

Quote
So are the gays a "minority" that deserve equal rights? ie marriage? Two guys getting married? Two women getting married? Raising kids? how about an old guy(age 65) and a kid who's 15? Let's allow them to marry, if they love eachother. How about 3 women marrying eachother? What's the difference. Why not? As long as there's love. I think marriage between a man and a woman is an institution created by God. I think it was created to protect children. Who are we to change the rules?

They can be who they want, (or who they are) but, among other things, they want their "religion" preached in public schools and are demanding equal rights. (their agenda) And I think that's why the Christian right objects so strongly. You can't display a cross on your desk if you're a christian teacher, but you can certainly display a rainbow triangle, to let kids know that you support the gay agenda, and that being gay is fine.  But they won't admit it's a gay rights symbol--they'll call it a "diversity" symbol. Interesting.  And christians are considered bigots and gay haters because they disagree, and don't want this agenda taught to their children. 

I don't dare think that it's my job to change a person's sexual orientation. It's offensive and I personally would never preach that to someone.  But do I want my children to be taught that homosexuality is a normal and healthy option? No.  Do I think that children are better off being raised by a father and a mother? Yes!

I think your point about the "gay lifestyle" is good. But I still think that it could be possible to not live out your urges if you're gay.  Maybe they could live a fulfilling life in touch with God, not acting out their same sex attraction.  The personal testimonies of people who have turned away from it are real.

Is it possible that some gays hate PFOX because it touches a raw nerve? It challenges the assumption that if you have gay urges, then you're gay and that's just who you are.

Can't gay people already do what they want in the bedroom? Can't they create a legal document that allows their partner to receive an inheritance if they die?  Can't they also have a legal document drawn up that allows their partner to see them in the hospital if they're in intensive care?  That's not my business. But teaching my kids your views IS my business. Using tax dollars is also my business.

Cara, do you agree that there is a gay agenda? How could you not?




Offline paintedshoes

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Re: Audience, Friends and Family Reactions to the Movie
« Reply #626 on: February 13, 2006, 08:49:28 PM »
Then, honey, just let it go for now.  There is no law that says that you have to fight the good fight (and it IS) today or tomorrow.  Husband your strength.  Give it time.  Rest.  You are safe here to help you til you can fight if that is what you choose.  Know that we all love you and are on your side, whatever you decide to do, dear, dear, sister of my heart.

Thank you for your kindness and support!  :)

Cara
I'm always here for you, true sister, but I can't help but laugh when I see that you are (once again) a VIRGIN among us! :D :D :D  Rest, sister, before you make decisions, rest.
"Miracles do happen, dear friend(s).  Miracles are real."- Boris 
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Offline jpq716

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Re: Audience, Friends and Family Reactions to the Movie
« Reply #627 on: February 13, 2006, 08:54:52 PM »
So sorry, Cara, but you have to decide just how close you want to keep these people in your life. If you want them to stay in your life, then you have to put a moritorium when you are in their presence on this particular facet of your political consciousness; conversely, if you cannot keep your political consciousness out of your everyday relations with these people, then you have to consider the possibility that you are going to lose them once and for all at some point in the future. Of course, there is also a third, and very sad, possibility, viz. that they will use this incident in the future as a wedge to convert you to their point of view or, if that proves impossible, to drive you into a state of distracted confusion. If this third option turns out to be the truth --- as I earnestly hope that it is not, since I value family ties highly --- then the decision about your relationship with them has already been made by them, and your only sensible course of action is to protect your soul from their destructive influence on it.

My sympatheties, Cara, on your dilemma. But situations like yours are precisely the reason why it is so hard to get movies like Brokeback Mountain made. Art, for the most part, is used by our society  to smoothe over vital differences and to maintain a social facade of sterile harmony. When a work of art like this one goes against the grain, then there is a hell to pay! Your current difficulties, which are yet another "goddamn bitch of an unsatisfactory situation," are just part of that hell. Best of luck to you, Cara, in your struggle to fight out of that abyss.
Albert Camus: "In the depth of winter I finally learned that there was in me an invincible summer."

Offline BillKCMO

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Re: Audience, Friends and Family Reactions to the Movie
« Reply #628 on: February 13, 2006, 08:57:20 PM »
paintedshoes:  I always love your posts, and their tone and wisdom.

Timothy:  Great comments!

Cara:  I tend to agree with paintedshoes:  You have to manage resources -- including emotions and time -- and the healthiest way to deal with this -- if sad -- may be to completely let the matter go.  The samples I've read of your sister-of-law's thinking -- which have been horrifying -- tell me that mere words are very unlikely to change her.  I might have suggested a variation on something Timothy said, which is to ask her to imagine, as vividly as possible, growing up as a gay person...and what it might feel like to be a gay person, and to be on the other side of her comments about "the gay agenda"...  Again, see if she could imagine this as vividly as possible....  Maybe you could even invite her to do a role play:  She plays a gay person, you play an anti-gay-rights "Christian."  In your role, you could tell her about resenting people trying to violate thousands of years of tradition [not exactly true -- if you look in some places in history, and in some other cultures] blah blah blah -- addressing her directly, as if she were gay -- and ask her to respond, in her role as "a gay person."  That *might* be powerful -- *if* she's game.  (It would be much better to do this in person instead of over the phone.)

Her comment about "finding God" as an alternative to accepting one's homosexuality tells me that she is, sadly, capable of being very mean.  While she probably thinks that comment is righteous and wonderful, on my end of a real life non-role-play, *it brings tears to my eyes*.  It's non-understanding, non-empathic, and cruel.

If seems like an emotional transformation would be necessary for her to change.  This may be a little sneaky, but I wonder if there couldn't be some way for a gay or lesbian person, someone she would like, to be brought into her life....  A friend of yours perhaps?  Someone she could get to know, and like...  After all, "Brokeback Mountain" is "just a movie."  A living, breathing gay person could be more affecting....

Has your sister-in-law ever been in therapy?

cyoung

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Re: Audience, Friends and Family Reactions to the Movie
« Reply #629 on: February 13, 2006, 08:57:25 PM »
I'm always here for you, true sister, but I can't help but laugh when I see that you are (once again) a VIRGIN among us! :D :D :D  Rest, sister, before you make decisions, rest.

I know. Silly of me to delete my account instead of just taking a break. Maybe there's a way to hook up the old account with the newly created one. Then again, sometimes it's fun to be a virgin all over again.  :D

Cara