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A follow on from the first BBM General Discussion topic.
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Yes, after I posted I tried to remember what the situation was. It crossed my mind that I may have been assuming too much. Dare I say, it may just have been something that AP didn't consider?
LOL! Now this is the one possibility I *definitely* don't believe... :)
It's hinted that Jack has a rising sense of self-destructiveness, and of course one of the ultimate expressions of that is unsafe sex. I don't think he would have wanted to give anything to Ennis, but yeah he could have lied and said he got whatever from a woman. Also, condom usage was not the norm in the early 80s, according to my memories, and Jack doesn't seem like he'd be a stickler for it.
I think this reading is far afield, but it is not outside the realm of possibility given the story's timing, that Jack or Jack and Ennis both have contracted HIV by the final scene. They're also arguing just as HIV is about to reshape gay identity culturally in a big way.
Its timing w/HIV just makes the last scene that much more complicated, which is why I think AP included it on purpose. As I've said before on other threads, I think Jack and Ennis are more than just two individuals: they also embody cultural attitudes and historical situations.
After posting the other day, I started thinking that "hell yes I been to Mexico" doesn't just mean, yes I have sex with men. It's also Jack saying, yes I have other partners b/c you don't give me enough of you.
Anyway: I do think Jack had multiple partners, that HIV was on the sidelines but not center stage in their relationship, and also that Jack sick and tired of the closet and getting ready to come out of the closet one way or another -- which might be why he mentioned the ranch neighbor to his parents, rather than b/c he really cared all that much for Randall.
Just continuing this discussion of the relevance of AIDS to the story....
I'd pointed out that the timing of Jack's death took them just into the era when AIDS was becoming public knowledge - it had been named and was being reported in the news. Well, now I've thought again and realised that the film script takes them just out of that era. Jack dies in 1981, before AIDS was called AIDS, and before the public health campaigns. It almost makes you wonder if that was the reason for changing the timing. The film-makers have chosen to sidestep the issue, perhaps.
When this issue first came up, I didn't agree that it was relevant to the story - not every story about gay men in the '80s has to be about AIDS. But now I'm not so sure. People tend to make the connection - gay men, early '80s, one seems to be promiscuous, one not ---> AIDS is an issue. ( I'm surprised it hasn't yet been suggested that AIDS was the cause of Jack's death - maybe it has been suggested!). I imagine that Annie Proulx would expect that readers might make that connection. She's chosen a date which invites that connection.
Somebody - was it CSI? - suggested that she might be contrasting Ennis's mainly imagined fears with the real danger which was rising up at the end of the story. I think I could see it that way. It's funny - Ennis would have completely missed that time of innocence pre-AIDS through his fear of a different death.
Jack and Ennis already having contracted HIV - I don't know about that. That news clip I linked to showed the cases still being mainly in big cities. We know there was a lot bubbling under of course, because of the gap between contracting HIV and and developing AIDS. We don't know how promiscuous Jack was. It sounds like he may have visited sex workers. But by the end, Lureen says that he kept his 'friends' addresses in his head - does that indicate a few regular partners? And we don't know exactly what sort of sex he had - the only sex act we see properly is the FNIT, where Jack first tries to get Ennis to touch him. He didn't necessarily have anal sex with other partners. And we don't know if Ennis had receptive anal sex with Jack, or what exactly they did. Jack could have been infected and Ennis not. Lureen could have been.
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Tx, Desecra for hauling the chat over here...I see it as not thematic, so much as suggestive of the background of the central theme of how love is affected by the homophobia as the undercurrent in the story.Just a clarification..I'm glad you've given thought to the irony of Ennis being terrified via a childhood incident-and missing the looming threat coming down the pike.
I don't see it as relevant about whether or not anyone actually contracted anything; I think the point is mostly a set up of the time and place. We are given nothing to imply Jack was not at least aware if not overly cautious in his one-night stands.
After all, he leaves rodeoing because of 'other things' along with the broken bones from the broncing; its been theorized-by me, too-that the other things relate to his sexuality, and the constant threat of bashing, that was probably just part of his life, after BBM.
So it does not appear we are being told he was careless physically, beyond the drinking and the fact he gained a few pounds and went over the border, IMO.
Just some more feedback for ya. :)
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Yes, just saying though that back in the '70s unprotected sex wasn't seen so much as being 'careless physically', was it? It was after AIDS that it came to be seen that way. So I do think Jack could have been careless, as most of us were back then. I agree that the 'other reasons' sound like it could have been the threat of bashing (the film implies that, I think) - but I don't think Jack would have seen condom-less sex as being risky. Not back then.
Whether anyone contracted anything - I agree, probably not relevant, but it would affect the prologue if Ennis had, I suppose.
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Yes, just saying though that back in the '70s unprotected sex wasn't seen so much as being 'careless physically', was it? It was after AIDS that it came to be seen that way. So I do think Jack could have been careless, as most of us were back then. I agree that the 'other reasons' sound like it could have been the threat of bashing (the film implies that, I think) - but I don't think Jack would have seen condom-less sex as being risky. Not back then.
Whether anyone contracted anything - I agree, probably not relevant, but it would affect the prologue if Ennis had, I suppose.
Well, its true, with penicillin around, that the threat of insanity from the ravages of syphillis had pretty much disappeared, no arguments there. So it WOULD be mostly STDs in the 70's. I guess also by careless, I mean in general, endangering himself, too....but you're right, the threat of disease would not be as imminent prior to the actual onset of the disease in general circles.
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Yes, I don't mean so much the actual risk - there was hepatitis, etc. - but the perceived risk.
I'm thinking more that it was looming over them - not that either contracted it. It was another possible result of Ennis's refusal to be with Jack - if they could have been together they'd have been safe from what ended up being such a huge, scary, tragic and terrible thing. It may have occurred to Ennis, later - the relative risks that you mentioned.
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Oh my, the prologue is already so incredibly devastating,
must we now give poor Ennis AIDS?
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I don't think so - I think he probably wouldn't have it. But after Jack's death, he'd be hearing about it when he turned on the news. I'm just wondering how it would fit with his conflicted feelings about their sexuality and his guilt and regret.
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I don't think Jack or Ennis had HIV -- but the story's timing makes it not impossible that Jack would have come into contact with it. SF was presumably a much more dangerous place re HIV than Mexico or the Midwest in 1983, but that sure doesn't mean it wasn't around.
It's been very interesting reading everyone's responses, though I can go much further with this than to notice it and surmise that it means _something_ . The timing surely can't be accidental, yet once again AP refuses to get concrete. And it is more a story about tragic love than a response to an epidemic. But if the epidemic is a major factor for the repressed group from the '80s on...?
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I don't think Jack or Ennis had HIV -- but the story's timing makes it not impossible that Jack would have come into contact with it. SF was presumably a much more dangerous place re HIV than Mexico or the Midwest in 1983, but that sure doesn't mean it wasn't around.
It's been very interesting reading everyone's responses, though I can go much further with this than to notice it and surmise that it means _something_ . The timing surely can't be accidental, yet once again AP refuses to get concrete. And it is more a story about tragic love than a response to an epidemic. But if the epidemic is a major factor for the repressed group from the '80s on...?
The timing may not be accidental at all. It may very well be that the story is timed to specifically avoid this sort of speculation thus moving away from the central themes.
There were already a plethora of excellent AIDS literary and theatrical explorations of the epidemic when this was written:
"The Normal Heart"
"Beat the Sunset"
"Long Time Companion"
Love!Valour!Compassion!
and the AIDS play to end all "Angels in America"
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Yes, I have a feeling that the film deliberately avoids it, by moving Jack's death to 1981. The book seems to deliberately just touch on it though - why not 1981 in the book?
I'm now thinking more that the timing is about how it would affect Ennis - Jack's death is brought into a period when AIDS was in the news. Ennis would be hearing about it while grieving for Jack. And the horror of AIDS did get people talking about sex more, I think.
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FWIW ages ago someone suggested that the spots on Ennis's hand in the last scene with Jack may have been lesions, and that the added line "It's cause of you that I'm like this..." may have been an AIDS reference. I disagree, incidentally. I think the marks are a nod to the sparks and lies flying upwards and burning their faces and hands.
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I agree, Mini-I said that myself. It makes sense, all those campfires, and working around animals, with branding equpment and such...
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I'm repeating myself, but the discussion is back.
I've always thought one reason for the timing was to keep AIDS off the table. Also, Jack's relationship w/ Randall is a good reason why Jack wouldn't have been exposed. This assumes he's having sex only w/Randall and Ennis, a reasonable assumption given how important Randall has become.
I always thought they were age spots on Ennis's hands. He's spent a lot of time out in the sun.
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I believe the scars on Ennis's hand were actually the wounds Heath got during the shooting period, they were not the makeup. In some of the scenes, we can see the wounds were quite new. If we can track the healing progress through out the film, I believe we can find out the sequence of shooting schedule.
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That's interesting and I'll look for it. I don't know shooting, but I'm surprised his hands would be injured in the process.
Until now, the only thing like that I'd spotted was before and after Heath had his ears pierced. For example, not pierced at the bar, and pierced at Jack's parents' house. I don't think they were pierced at the motel.
And Heath has beautiful ears. In addition to having a smile that would light up the dark side of the moon.
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I don't think it was injury, might just be bad bug bites or poked by the twigs,etc. Not big deal at all, but certainly added something to the close scrutiny.
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But for them to not hide the, makes me think a statement is being made-I vote they are the way most ranchers' hands look, not only form the sun, but from campfires and branding animals-and anything else involving fire......like maybe nookie with Jack Twist.
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Yes, I think it just worked into the situation, even accidentally. Somehow the tattoo on Heath's wrist wasn't covered up either.
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I hate to contradict myself, but so be it. My earlier theory that Jack wasn't exposed to AIDS because he was having sex only w/ Randall and Ennis has a problem. If Jack was killed, I thought the most likely cause was that he'd made a pass at the wrong guy. This was something of a bookend w/ the pass he made at Jimbo in the bar. But if Jack was making passes at guys, then he was still having sex w/ strangers in 1982, or trying to.
This movie has a lot of blanks to fill in.
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I hate to contradict myself, but so be it. My earlier theory that Jack wasn't exposed to AIDS because he was having sex only w/ Randall and Ennis has a problem. If Jack was killed, I thought the most likely cause was that he'd made a pass at the wrong guy. This was something of a bookend w/ the pass he made at Jimbo in the bar. But if Jack was making passes at guys, then he was still having sex w/ strangers in 1982, or trying to.
This movie has a lot of blanks to fill in.
In the SS Jack isn't just sitting around waiting for his get-togethers with Ennis and just because we SEE only his failed attempt with Jimbo, and ONE trip to Mexico and the intro to a POSSIBLE relationship with Randall doesn't mean those were the only times he didn't "roll his own." (We don't see him eating dinner with anyone but Ennis, except for the one Thanksgiving scene, but we know he ate.) Also, even if you believe those were the only contacts Jack had that doesn't mean Senor and Randall were unexposed to HIV. I agree with whomever that the story was timed to keep AIDS ou of it.
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I agree that we are supposed to make the assumption Jack has more opportunities than Jimbo and one trip to Mexico. We even have Randall making the pass at Jack -- the embodiment of Annie Proulx' ranch foreman's "wife" story.
Either way guys, in my opinion looking for meaning in the lack of AIDS influence in the story is barking up a very remote tree. It would have been the farthest thing from Ennis' mind. Even if he heard about it he wouldn't have feared it. He was in such denial.
Is the timing of the story a manipulation on Annie Proulx' part? Well, maybe, except IMO it is more than justified, since so many of us can actually remember adult life without AIDS.
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I kind of agree on Ennis not applying it to himself during Jack's lifetime. I just think it's interesting that after Jack's death (and after Ennis acknowledging Jack's sexuality, knowing for sure about other men and starting to accept it) AIDS would be more in the news. I agree that he could avoid it up until that point, but afterwards .... I just wonder if he connected it to Jack. I like CSI's point about the real fear of AIDS. It's an irony that had Jack lived, if they'd gone on the way they were going it might have been a real risk for both of them, whereas if Ennis had consented to live with Jack earlier it wouldn't have been a risk.-
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There have been approximately 225 AIDS cases reported in Wyoming since the outbreak of the epidemic. There were none reported in 1983. I don't know what radio station listened to or what newspapers he might have read. but AIDS was not big news in Wyoming and Ennis was not , it seems to me, the inquisitive sort. Christ, he thought so little of himself and was so depressed,he peed in his sink. I think we are perhaps looking for things that don't exist.
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I agree with you, garyd.
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In the spring of 2006, when I was seeking out every smidgen of info on the story and the film, I read a little interview with AP in which she said that she decided at the outset to have the story span 20 years. She wanted it to begin when the west and the economics of ranching were changing and said that the early sixties was the latest possible start date. She did not say so but the implication was clear that AIDS would have been too complicating a factor. I have searched for this interview ever since the subject came up on this or another thread sometime back but cant even remember if it was online. So you will just have to take my word for it. :)
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I didn't realise that AIDS didn't get to be news in Wyoming - I'm used to national news in the UK, and had just assumed that the whole of the US got the news. Over here, it was big news after 1983 - I do remember people talking about it a lot. There were demos of how to put condoms on on TV, etc., and there seemed to be changes in the way casual sex was shown in popular culture (I remember that in the next Bond film, Bond was monogamous) - if I remember correctly we all had a letter through the door about it. It would have been impossible to miss it here, but if there wasn't publicity in Wyoming, I suppose Ennis could have missed it altogether - I hadn't even thought of that.
Thanks for the info, Chapeaugris. I feel that the timing did sidestep the issue before Jack's death - I really don't think it would be something Jack would have considered much. But at the same time, it puts Ennis's slow-dawning awareness and acceptance right into the AIDS era.
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I can't find anywhere else to post this, so I'll try it here. Eric Patterson has written an insightful article on Brokeback, the book and film, that is available to read on the GLBTQ encyclopedia site: http://www.glbtq.com/sfeatures/pattersonbrokeback.html. It's been so long, I don't remember how to make that a live link, but, if you can cut and paste, you'll get there. I don't agree with all of Patterson's conclusions, but his article is an ambitious attempt to place Brokeback within the context of gay history and present-day attitudes. Both the short story and film continue to provoke meaningful discussion.
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That link works fine. Thanks for bringing a really thoughtful article to my attention.
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I can't find anywhere else to post this, so I'll try it here. Eric Patterson has written an insightful article on Brokeback, the book and film, that is available to read on the GLBTQ encyclopedia site: http://www.glbtq.com/sfeatures/pattersonbrokeback.html. It's been so long, I don't remember how to make that a live link, but, if you can cut and paste, you'll get there. I don't agree with all of Patterson's conclusions, but his article is an ambitious attempt to place Brokeback within the context of gay history and present-day attitudes. Both the short story and film continue to provoke meaningful discussion.
It is a good article, and fyi, Eric Patterson has agreed to do an interview for our Daily Sheet. We may even ask him to do a live author chat in books if he is willing. :)
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I think the point is maybe being missed..AIDS has nothing to do with what Ennis thinks-but it does have to do with the era in which the story is ending. That is the real point-it begins in 63 and ends almost 20 years later.
'This is the era of America losing its innocence, IMO. Starting with Kennedy's assassination..In that light, I think there is a bit of a parallel with Ennis's revelation at Lighting Flat.
That is the connection I see; its purely metaphorical and only a suggestion. I don't think it plays a part, beyond Jack being more aware than Ennis, and perhaps being more motivated to become more monogamous, than he was earlier. Purely a practical suggestion. :)
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In the spring of 2006, when I was seeking out every smidgen of info on the story and the film, I read a little interview with AP in which she said that she decided at the outset to have the story span 20 years. She wanted it to begin when the west and the economics of ranching were changing and said that the early sixties was the latest possible start date. She did not say so but the implication was clear that AIDS would have been too complicating a factor. I have searched for this interview ever since the subject came up on this or another thread sometime back but cant even remember if it was online. So you will just have to take my word for it. :)
Well -- my .02 is that I just really don't find this a burning question in my mind about Ennis and Jack's relationship. There was a time in the past century w/o AIDS, and then AIDS became part of the public consciousness. I am fine to leave it at that.
There are some things I do long for. I long for more displays of affection by Ennis in the movie (the SS had them... "little darlin" and the bright sparks.) Um -- I long for Ennis to contact by telephone after the last scene on the mountain, before Jack died. I long for Ennis to ask Jack to stick around for a couple of days until the girls went home Sunday night, after the divorce.
I do not long for either Ennis or Jack to ponder the dilemma of AIDS. It just seems beyond what the story is about.
For me the whole issue is kind of like those "deleted scenes" we have been reading about in TDS -- for the most part, we are really glad they didn't make it into the movie. What if James Schamus wrote a scene where Lureen says at the breakfast table "honey, it says here in the paper homo-sexuals are dying from some strange disease! Aren't you glad we don't have to worry about that?"
And then Jack would choke on his Texan coffee. "What? oh sure honey... say I wonder how people catch that, anyway?"
snip!!! cut!!! EDIT!!!
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I can't find anywhere else to post this, so I'll try it here. Eric Patterson has written an insightful article on Brokeback, the book and film, that is available to read on the GLBTQ encyclopedia site: http://www.glbtq.com/sfeatures/pattersonbrokeback.html. It's been so long, I don't remember how to make that a live link, but, if you can cut and paste, you'll get there. I don't agree with all of Patterson's conclusions, but his article is an ambitious attempt to place Brokeback within the context of gay history and present-day attitudes. Both the short story and film continue to provoke meaningful discussion.
It is a good article, and fyi, Eric Patterson has agreed to do an interview for our Daily Sheet. We may even ask him to do a live author chat in books if he is willing. :)
I would love to ask him a few questions about his article. Thanks.
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A universal reaction to the film -- at least among my crowd -- is the desire for more affection in general and that they should have embraced and kissed at the beginning of their third trip. And at least the hug was filmed -- we've seen stills of it. I haven't seen a still of a kiss.
Including that clip would have extended the movie by maybe 10-30 seconds. Such a pity.
And the scene feels awkward w/o that greeting.
I realize Ang Lee is a better director than I am, but he made a mistake here that was so easy to fix. But if you can't fix it ...
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I didn't realise that AIDS didn't get to be news in Wyoming - I'm used to national news in the UK, and had just assumed that the whole of the US got the news. Over here, it was big news after 1983 - I do remember people talking about it a lot. There were demos of how to put condoms on on TV, etc., and there seemed to be changes in the way casual sex was shown in popular culture (I remember that in the next Bond film, Bond was monogamous) - if I remember correctly we all had a letter through the door about it. It would have been impossible to miss it here, but if there wasn't publicity in Wyoming, I suppose Ennis could have missed it altogether - I hadn't even thought of that.
Thanks for the info, Chapeaugris. I feel that the timing did sidestep the issue before Jack's death - I really don't think it would be something Jack would have considered much. But at the same time, it puts Ennis's slow-dawning awareness and acceptance right into the AIDS era.
Des, just for an attempt at clarification. I used the word "reported". By that I meant "reported to the U.S. Center for Disease Control". I have to believe that by 1983, some media reporting regarding the disease occurred in Wyoming. Certainly, by the time of the prologue, whenever that is, ;D there would have been news reports. I, of course, have no idea by what method Ennis obtained news of the day. My guess is that the Ennis's local paper had yet to do an expose and neither had the local country/western station. I also just assume that Ennis was not a devotee of National Public Radio or "Frontline".
Furthermore, it my understanding that AP is a trained historian in the French Annales School of historical research and reporting. This specific discipline places emphasis upon geography, material culture, and zeitgeist. AIDS, at least until a good while subsequent to Jack's death, would not have been an element affecting the Annales historical context of the period examined in the story.
Consequently, I do have difficulty in believing that the specter of AIDS had any affect whatsoever on the motivation or rationale for the behavior of either Jack or Ennis.
As always, IMO and with the caveat that I have been so VERY wrong before and can and will be again! :-[
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Thanks for the clarfication - yes, I agree with you about Jack. He died too early - a year or too later and he might have been more aware, but I don't imagine much had filtered through at that point. Ennis, though (I'm talking about after Jack's death) ... maybe he could have missed it, or maybe he could have heard about it and it just didn't register. One thing about the AIDS publicity is that it kind of made homosexuality more 'out' in a way - sex in general had to be talked about. I wonder if Ennis would have been exposed to more positive images after 1983 (ironically).
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It is of course, possible, that during the ensuing years, Ennis was exposed to a more expansive view of homosexuality.
There was, also, a multitude of truly negative publicity initially..."the gay plague" etc. So initially it caused more fear, I think, than understanding.
In addition, it is difficult to discount that Matthew Shepard was murdered in 1998 in Laramie.
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Yes, I posted earlier about the 'gay plague' wonder if Ennis's fear would lead him to buy into that 'judgement' in a way. I agree that Matthew Shepard's death would confirm his own fears, but not necessarily his own homophobia - the general public feeling was outrage and anger at his killers, wasn't it? Ennis didn't get to see that when Earl was killed. He only saw his father's approval of the killing. That would be after the prologue though.
I think Ennis is shown as isolated from his society - but actually his society was moving on. The progress we see in the prologue was internal, I think, but I wonder how much the changes in society would have affected him.
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I suppose what I am trying to say is that I have serious doubts that "Wyoming society" was moving on or changing in any profound way that might have had an affect on Ennis
In the final analysis, he probably learns some things about himself, Jack, and their relationship but he is still the guy who's idea of traveling (which metaphorically means so much more than just travel) is moving his hand around the coffee pot.
There certainly may be a story incorporating your thoughts, but I don't think AP wrote it.
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Well, I think she wrote in the sense that Ennis seems to be shown as cut off from society a little. It's interesting that there is very little mention of the 'outside world' (current events), in contrast to another story in the collection where the characters' lives are tied in to what's going on around them. There are references to the draft, and the Thresher early on, and later we see that Ennis is affected by economic changes, but apart from that there's very little ... we're aware of the passage of time over 20 years, but barely aware of the massive outside changes going on between the '60s and the '80s. So Ennis seems to exist in his own world, and that gives much more power to his father's message.
By the prologue, he still seems to be a little cut off, and the book is vague about the date. It's maybe the '90s by that time. As I mentioned, I think the changes we see in Ennis are internal - his own gradual working through of what Jack meant to him. So it's just speculation about how things like AIDS and Matthew Shepard would have affected him - I take the point that he might not even have heard of these things, being more cut off than most people. I tend to think he would have heard of them, but it's interesting to imagine how he might have applied them to himself. Do you think Annie Proulx is sidestepping those issues altogether - almost as if she's setting Ennis in an alternate universe where the world continues not to change around him (as it apparently doesn't change during the 20 years - although we know it did, and others - Jack, Alma, probably noticed it - I think the film makes that point), or not change as far as he's concerned anyway? In that case, all the progress is internal?
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Yes, I see your point. Ennis is certainly not illiterate. He liked school. He was up enough on current affairs to chat about them with Jack on the mountain.
(Of course, he only read catalogues of some sort)
So, who knows?
I honestly believe, however, that Ennis, no matter what his fate subsequent to the prologue, remains pretty much an island.
I can much more easily rectify your observations regarding post-Jack Ennis with movie Ennis than I can with SS Ennis.
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One thing about how AIDS might or might not affect Ennis after Jack's death, that I thought of reading gary's and Des's posts
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We have no evidence he ever came to consider himself 'gay'-so the whole AIDS thing may have been something he was dimly aware of, but kept at a distance from himself..and keep in mind, he said' one's' enough' so he never had cause to worry about anyone else after Jack.
I could see Ennis easily thinking, one had to be gay to catch it...
My guess is if this ever did cross his mind, or he had a worry about Jack, he'd dismiss it; and I doubt his family would discuss it with him. They had no reason to, he was pretty successfully closeted. His relationship with the all-kowing Alma Jr, is from the movie, mostly.
I do think for Ennis it is rather irrelevant-but for the viewer, it can seem highly ironic, given his terror over the tire ironing that never happened to him. Like I said, its wallpaper, muted and in the background, in terms of this story.
...and how ironic is it, that the relationship spanned the era of 'free love'-when it was hardly that.
[to clarify, I'm speaking of the homophobia, not anything they actually did in bed together-when there was a bed...]
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and how ironic is it, that the realtionship spanned the era of 'free love'-when it was hardly that.
I generally agree, though have always enjoyed that the reunion takes place during the Summer of Love -- as if even two closeted men deep in the heartland could not help but be swept up... :D
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and how ironic is it, that the realtionship spanned the era of 'free love'-when it was hardly that.
I generally agree, though have always enjoyed that the reunion takes place during the Summer of Love -- as if even two closeted men deep in the heartland could not help but be swept up... :D
Of course! 1967..let it all hang out, man.
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I think that is the best article I have read about Brokeback Mountain, and I've read a few. Thank you for the link.
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His views on the inclusion of SNIT were most interesting, I thought.
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Yes, and he's noticed that Ennis's concern about their relationship after the FNIT (in the film) is a departure from the story.
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For anyone who's interested, the American Film Institute is doing another list. This time they provide a list of 500 movies slotted into ten different categories and ask for votes. Voting is done by mail. The only category that might possibly be suitable for BBM is "western," and it didn't make the cut. However, you are allowed to write in titles as well. "The Last Picture Show" made the list--why not BBM?
Go to:
http://connect.afi.com/site/DocServer/10top10.pdf?docID=361
for the ballot.
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My god, my son just called with the news that heath ledger was found dead and I didn't believe him but it is on tmz's website. Just a brief spot with very little info. Awful.
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I just heard it on the radio, and am in tears.
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Horrible, dreadful, tragic news.
I've just heard on the news that Heath Ledger has been found
dead in his NY apartment. A possible drug related death.
More details will be forthcoming.
I am in complete shock.
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Thank you for letting us know. Very sad. Poor Matilda (and anyone else close to him).
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Unbelievable ... So sorry ... thank you Heath for all you did.
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I'm in complete shock!!!!! :(
I can't let myself really accept it. I had to come here right away. Waiting for more details. How horrible.
Here's an article:
http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/01/22/actor-heath-ledger-is-found-dead/ (http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/01/22/actor-heath-ledger-is-found-dead/)
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THIS IS TERRIBLE!!!!!!!!!! OH MY GOD!!!!!!!
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I'm sittiing here shaking like crazy, how can this be? It is just too sad and terrible for words.
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I can't believe it.
It must be a mistake.
I just can't believe it.
What horrible news.
My daughter emailed me and my immediate reaction was:
IT CAN'T BE!!
I don't think I'll ever get over this.
It is just TOO sad and too tragic.
This a kid, for God's sake - with his whole life ahead of him!
What the fuck happened?
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So very very sad, and unexpected.
I do not know what to say.
Heath was often mentioned as someone who grew temendously as an actor. His pre-reviews as Joker in the new Batman were outstanding.
What a loss to his family, and to all of us who loved his work.
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It is just too cruel.
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Why wasn't it just a close call?
I hesitate to search for analogies, but James Dean's death comes to mind. I think Heath was a better actor and it's been a long time since I've seen a James Dean movie.
But the magnitude of the loss seems comparable.
I was so looking forward to watching Heath's movies for the rest of my life (I'm twice his age), but that was taken away.
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http://www.news.com.au/entertainment/story/0,23663,23131105-5015787,00.html
"Fortunately, because the film deals with magic, there is a way of turning Heath into other people, and then use stills and computer generated imagery (CGI)."
(I wasn't sure where to post this)
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Thanks lislis. I hope they find a way to use the Heath footage, but I feel sorry for the director, who will not be able to make the movie he set out to make.
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Here is a link to a new article by Eric Patterson, titled "Elegy for Heath Ledger: His Imperishible Achievement in Bokeback Mountain"
http://rowmanblog.typepad.com/
excerpt
There isn't time for such extensive analytical discussion, though of course it should and will come eventually. It isn't necessary now; all one really needs to do is to watch Brokeback once more and feel his extraordinary performance. Of course, one of the effects of the endless parodies and "jokes" about the film ever since its release has been to prevent appreciation of it, to seek to neutralize its beauty and power by burying it in ridicule. Can one imagine such continuous abuse being directed at a film about any other minority group, at, say, Schindler's List or Do the Right Thing? But for those who aren't poisoned with hatred of men who love men, and who can watch the film with open hearts, it speaks for itself.
This is a great article, take a look.
Eric Patterson is associate professor of American studies and American literature at Hobart and William Smith Colleges. He is the author of an upcoming book On Brokeback Mountain: Meditations about Masculinity, Fear, and Love in the Story and the Film. TDS is going to review his book soon.
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Of course, one of the effects of the endless parodies and "jokes" about the film ever since its release has been to prevent appreciation of it, to seek to neutralize its beauty and power by burying it in ridicule. Can one imagine such continuous abuse being directed at a film about any other minority group, at, say, Schindler's List or Do the Right Thing? But for those who aren't poisoned with hatred of men who love men, and who can watch the film with open hearts, it speaks for itself.
Bravo! It's been my contention for years that "queer ridicule" (or worse...and sometimes much worse) is the only prejudice still sanctioned, even promoted, in all Western cultures. Sad to say, gays are the one target of scorn around which diverse social elements can still rally with impunity: from the most conservative organized-religion followers to "hip" comedians.
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That article was so wonderful!! Thanks for posting this!
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Three weeks to the day....it hardly seems believable, even now....If feels as if an eternity has gone by since last we saw Heath looking rather funky on the set of his last movie. How tempting it would be to just go back there and hang out in one's mind for as long as one needed to-pre Jan 22, 2008.
Our very own Black Tuesday.
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The "Elegy for HL" article is outstanding. Eric Patterson really gets it.
I passed over the laments about unkind comments people made about Heath right after he died, and the stuff about homophobia and society, and concentrated on the large majority of the article which discussed Heath's acting.
The author says that Ennis avoided eye contact w/ Jack until the campfire scene where he talks about himself. I don't think I ever noticed that.
I really liked his comment -- and it's not just because the author agreed with me -- that SNIT was one of the most romantic scenes ever filmed.
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~ SNIT was one of the most romantic scenes ever filmed.
OH yeah. It's definitely the most romantic per second - it's very brief, isn't it!
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~ SNIT was one of the most romantic scenes ever filmed.
OH yeah. It's definitely the most romantic per second - it's very brief, isn't it!
Long enough to reflect on ;)
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Long enough to gasp and then hold your breath! I had not seen anything like it before. It is still remarkable to me, even as I watch it now.
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Wow! I was just at the grocery store and out of the corner of my eye caught sight of this week's TV Guide with the Jake Gyllenhaal cover.
I about broke my neck trying to get to the stand to pick up a copy... and when I took a closer look, it was George Clooney. The resemblance was uncanny. If Jake continues to mature along those lines, he'll be gorgeous until he's 110!
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~ SNIT was one of the most romantic scenes ever filmed.
OH yeah. It's definitely the most romantic per second - it's very brief, isn't it!
Long enough to reflect on ;)
"NEVER ENOUGH TIME, NEVER ENOUGH"
(love the quotes from the film).
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I've said it before but this is a good place to say it again. In FNIT and SNIT, I always see myself as Jack, except for when Ennis strokes Jack's chest. Only then do I feel like Ennis.
SNIT grabs me and pulls me in like nothing else. I'm kissing Ennis the best I know how.
Don't I wish.
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Not sure if this has been posted or if this is even the best place to post it but ran across an interesting article this morning.
Heath on Ennis: http://www.ebar.com/arts/art_article.php?sec=film&article=465
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That is a great link dlc, dated today. thanks
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Any little snippet of Heath's thought re Ennis is always interesting. Thanks.
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On a new topic:
I love the short story and the film, but I wonder how well-suited Ennis's intricate denials and Jack's various and lenghty suffering would have been to a full-length novel? so much detail we are left to guess and assume..I know that is part of the interesting trick of the short story, and its maintained many of these threads for over two years now-but I just wonder. The story is a winner, hands down. The most drawn-out component, the end, is an exercise in revelation-but how interesting to see it for ourselves, as they go along, and then anticipate the realizations by the characters, later.
Emotionally, the wallop was much greater in the SS, as we discover things Ennis knew, but was not enligthened about-so he gets the point, as we hear things for the first time. We are stunned along with him....no mercy.
Just wondering what the impact of a novel-length version would've been. Minus all the tight efficiencies of AP's language-or simply offering more of the same??
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The film expanded the short story TO a novel.
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That's an interesting way to look at it..might we say the epic became an epic? I always think AP's imagery as an epic feel to it, form Ennis waking up at red dawn; to the right keys turning the tumblers; to the sun beating against the boy's bed.
Its so expansive and all encompassing, in so few words.
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I certainly feel the SS had in itself the potential of being expanded to a full-length novel, even without being adapted to a film medium.
Not only because it encompasses a 20-yr period of time, but because of the language and imagery, and also the potential of some of the secondary characters being fleshed out more.
Not to mention the possibility of introducing more narrative point of views, or expand Jack's POV at least.
On the other hand, I wouldn't want the essential message of the SS to be diluted if the story was to be expanded.
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That's a very good point, FT-and it is illustrated by the difference in book and film-necessary for the film version, different media, diff detail required. No two versions an be exactly the same and as a result, the message may alter, or in some cases, suffer.
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Interesting discussion, guys.
Mind if I add my two cents?
My feeling has always been that had BBM been lengthened into novel form, we
would have lost the 'immediacy' of the moment so prevalent in the s/s.
For instance, in a full-length novel, I'm thinking that AP would have had to stretch
the story to include many extraneous factors that would, perhaps, have taken us
on differeing highways and byways and away from Jack and Ennis and what I most
wanted to know: were these two EVER going to be happy?
I'm thinking that AP would have had to have given us more points of view.
A tactic I, personally, am not very fond of unless done very, very well.
(I suppose she would have done it as well as anyone, but still, I worry that
it would have thrown me off the main story.)
She would have had to have fleshed out Alma and Lureen and the parents
and maybe even the grocer and then the the kids and the years in between
and the insipient misery and maybe, even, the growing up. The formation of
character would have had to have been filled out with more detail and then
the landscape and its overpowering grip on these sorts of people: the poverty,
the hardscrabble lives, the reason why Jack 'loved a small dog' and all the rest
of it. Not to mention: what really happened to Jack? Who was the ranch
foreman? Did he really exist? God Forbid, we might even have gotten
his point of view...No, it is too horrible to contemplate. ;D
I'm satisfied that we got the BBM we needed. The story existed to be put down in
short story form. Or vice versa.
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As you wrote it, I agree...She made it what it was, a short story. It is true though that it lends itself to fleshing out, if only because of the fascinating twists and turns at the end. Its a matter of preference, I think. But yes, the original work will always stand, IMO, as perfection. Even when I think of what I would have liked to see more of, I realize it would affect another scene in the story..kind of like taking one med for one thing, and having it screw up something else.
AP's balance is masterful.
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She would have had to have fleshed out Alma and Lureen and the parents
and maybe even the grocer and then the the kids and the years in between
and the insipient misery and maybe, even, the growing up. The formation of
character would have had to have been filled out with more detail and then
the landscape and its overpowering grip on these sorts of people: the poverty,
the hardscrabble lives, the reason why Jack 'loved a small dog' and all the rest
of it. Not to mention: what really happened to Jack? Who was the ranch
foreman? Did he really exist? God Forbid, we might even have gotten
his point of view...No, it is too horrible to contemplate. ;D
I'm satisfied that we got the BBM we needed. The story existed to be put down in
short story form. Or vice versa.
ANNIE PROULX POSTCARDS SPOILER
Well, actually, for those of us who read Postcards, waiting, hoping and expecting to find out what really happened to Frankie, (apparently murdered in the opening paragraphs of the novel) I can attest that Annie Proulx may never tell you, even after a full novel's worth of reading and guessing.
I tend to think we have no choice but to leave perfection alone.
However, the idea of different points of view -- Actually, POV did break a couple of times in BBM (Jack had not been rolling his own -- from J's POV in the motel room) and the dozy embrace scene is entirely from J's POV -- there are a couple more --
even alma gets a couple P's of V, when she thanks "what you like to do don't make too many babies..."
I dunno, maybe even Aguirre, although I think technically we did have his POV when we knew he watched through the binoculars for ten minutes.
I think probably this is an example of POV changes that are very well done.
It could have been a longer story but OMG Jack and Ennis already seem more real to us than almost any other fictional characters.
By leaving so much unsaid, Annie left us with unlimited slash scenarios. :o
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Well, actually, for those of us who read Postcards, waiting, hoping and expecting to find out what really happened to Frankie, (apparently murdered in the opening paragraphs of the novel) I can attest that Annie Proulx may never tell you, even after a full novel's worth of reading and guessing.
~snip~
By leaving so much unsaid, Annie left us with unlimited slash scenarios. :o
So I shouldn't bother finishing Postcards? Thank goodness. It was heavy going. And I'll keep reading slash ;)
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Postcards to me was a rather pia to read...It really required effort. IMO,no one of her best...
But as to her best, in BBM, what she does not say says everything, and that takes real talent.
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I was just thinking: How many hetero love stories have you read where one of the couple does not accept their love for the other, on a fundamental basis? How unique really is BBM in that light? I think its pretty damned unique...Off hand, I'd say most love stories achieve acknowledgement from both parties, even if they end tragically. Its never about how they feel for each other.
BBM is all about that....It's so clearly about not exactly unrequited love, like Remains of the Day; Jack and Ennis do make love and meet up over the rest of their lives, until Jack dies...but, its the quality of the relationship that fails. The outside pressures, unless you think it was the tire iron in the end, never come to bear on them in the way Ennis expected. So the stress is mostly coming from within-from him.
I think this is the factor that makes this so unique-there have been other gay love stories, and just to think of one example: Front Runner. The coach is as tough as they come, but he treats Billy like gold, in private, basically. He even has a moment or two of public revelation in the story. The things that happen in that story are driven by the external social component-it is not about them and their feelings for each other. Those feelings are made clear throughout the story, with some expected reservations.
But BBM...society never gets it's whack at J and E, beyond the private outtings of Aguirre and Alma (unless you think Jack got TI'd in the end...). This is just so clear to me. It shows without a doubt, who the real enemy is in the story-internalized homophobia.
And it is at age 9 that society takes its whack at Ennis and produces that hphobia.
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Well, actually, for those of us who read Postcards, waiting, hoping and expecting to find out what really happened to Frankie, (apparently murdered in the opening paragraphs of the novel) I can attest that Annie Proulx may never tell you, even after a full novel's worth of reading and guessing.
~snip~
By leaving so much unsaid, Annie left us with unlimited slash scenarios. :o
So I shouldn't bother finishing Postcards? Thank goodness. It was heavy going. And I'll keep reading slash ;)
ooooops, should have designatee SPOILER! Sorry about that.
I would recommend finishing the book, or at least skipping to the end. ;) After all, you still don't know whether Loyal finds love again.
Oh, it just came to me what the BBM novel would be about -- :P
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I was just thinking: How many hetero love stories have you read where one of the couple does not accept their love for the other, on a fundamental basis? How unique really is BBM in that light? I think its pretty damned unique...Off hand, I'd say most love stories achieve acknowledgement from both parties, even if they end tragically. Its never about how they feel for each other.
I think BBM is very much about the internal, although the external is there too. I do think that is sometimes touched on in other stories - usually there are external forces keeping the couple apart (there has to be something keeping them apart or there isn't a story), but sometimes there are internal things too. Take 'Brief Encounter' for instance - there are external things keeping the characters apart (their society doesn't approve, etc.), but really it's their own sense of right and wrong, of duty, which puts a stop to it. 'Casablanca'? 'Gone with the Wind'? There are often internal factors. Although that emphasis on the internal is an outstanding feature of BBM, I don't think it's that exceptional - and I think that feature appeals to us a lot.
It agree with you about the lack of acceptance. The characters in 'Brief Encounter' can acknowledge what they feel for each other, and can even accept it although they can't accept acting on it. Ennis can't properly acknowledge it and can't even accept it whether or not he acts on it, I think.
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As you wrote it, I agree...She made it what it was, a short story. It is true though that it lends itself to fleshing out, if only because of the fascinating twists and turns at the end. Its a matter of preference, I think. But yes, the original work will always stand, IMO, as perfection. Even when I think of what I would have liked to see more of, I realize it would affect another scene in the story..kind of like taking one med for one thing, and having it screw up something else.
AP's balance is masterful.
"...balance..." The Golden Mean at work. Thanks, jo. ;D
I know what you mean and I agree. Good medicine analogy.
I'm not even a big fan of short stories, althought lately I've been disproving that by reading a few in
The New Yorker and liking them. But, on the whole, I'm a reader of novels.
And yet, wonder of wonders, I've lately been considering writing short stories again
as I seem to have a talent for it.
So, who knows? Does EVERYTHING exist to be disproven?
Maybe. ::)
Certainly, BBM is the perfect short story.
I remember, vaguely, having the same feeling about Guy DeMaupassant's work when I read it
in high school. And O'Henry, of course.
But nothing in between springs to mind, until BBM.
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Have you tried Alice Munro, Rosewood?
IMO her short stories are brilliant.
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Don't think I'm familiar with her work.
(So many books, so little time!!)
But I'll certainly keep a look-out.
That is, if the pile of books near my bed doesn't topple
over one of these nights and put an end to my feeble
existence. :D
Thanks, Ellen.
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Rose-A short story from you would be well worth the wait, I'm sure.
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Rose-A short story from you would be well worth the wait, I'm sure.
Thanks, csi. You'll be the first to know.
Don't know yet where I'm headed with it.
Still tossing things around.
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Don't think I'm familiar with her work.
(So many books, so little time!!)
But I'll certainly keep a look-out.
That is, if the pile of books near my bed doesn't topple
over one of these nights and put an end to my feeble
existence. :D
Thanks, Ellen.
keep writing, Rosewood!
btw sometimes Alice Munro is published in The New Yorker, although she up in years now. Farther along than our heroine Annie Proulx.
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Have you tried Alice Munro, Rosewood?
IMO her short stories are brilliant.
Has anybody mentioned that Alice Munro wrote the short story on which Julie Christie's "Away from Her" is based? There are a lot of great short story writers out there. One of my favorites is William Boyd. But Annie stands alone.
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Oh, I so want to see/ read Away From Her...I hear both book and film are GREAT.
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In my local paper on the 12th, the syndicated Crossword puzzle by Thomas Joseph. 15 acroos:
"Brokeback Mountain" director.
Ain't it funny how any little snippet can lighten the day?!
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In my local paper on the 12th, the syndicated Crossword puzzle by Thomas Joseph. 15 acroos:
"Brokeback Mountain" director.
Ain't it funny how any little snippet can lighten the day?!
Yes, I've come across that clue in crosswords before. Nice
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Two random thoughts I had recently:
Do you think BBM will ever be shown on network television or even on a station like TBS or TNT, or is it too serious or "controversial" for that (I know they tend to show mainly brainless action movies and comedies)?
And what do you think are the chances that Criterion will eventually release a version of the film? It seems like it would be a perfect choice for them.
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It's certainly been on main channels here in the UK. ;)
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Two random thoughts I had recently:
Do you think BBM will ever be shown on network television or even on a station like TBS or TNT, or is it too serious or "controversial" for that (I know they tend to show mainly brainless action movies and comedies)?
And what do you think are the chances that Criterion will eventually release a version of the film? It seems like it would be a perfect choice for them.
I think it might be on network tv... in the future. Maybe 10 years. There will have to be a few more films released along the same line as Brokeback (and I ain't talking "westerns") before we see it on mainstream tv. But I've been wrong before... there was that time in '76 and....
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It's certainly been on main channels here in the UK. ;)
I have only seen it on paid channels like Sky Movies personally, but am I mistaken?
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im sure its been shown on main channels in the uk! but america and other places then here cos i think the uk is more relaxed about 'gay love scenes and stories' cos im sure ive herd in america mainly in the south is very reglion based is that right?
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It's been on Sky Movies, which is a cable channel which one has to pay a subscription for, but I have not seen it on any of the mainstream channels, even though as you say we are pretty cool about such things here! There are probably other reasons than content why this is so!
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The networks in the UK, like the ones here, may not be willing to pony up. Popular first run flicks cost a lot more than older pictures. Crash hasn't been on network tv (just to name one from the same time period.)
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I suspect that is probably the reason, but I know Sky movies show it, and they had it as a film that one could pay for on their "Front Row" channel. We have Virgin Cable and to my knowledge they have never shown it at all. I do wonder if that is something to do with content, but as they do have Queer As Folk it seems unlikely. I wondered if there were copyright issues?
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There is one -- count 'em, one -- moment in the film when it looks like Heath is acting. It's when he wakes up after FNIT. The expression on his face is not quite perfect.
I guess the rest of his performance makes up for it.
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I was also surprised that he looked clean-shaven to me in the morning after FNIT... ;)
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So did Jack.
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They were 19... maybe neither was supposed to have a lot of face hair at the time. I don't remember them looking scruffy at all on the mountain.
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They shaved regularly as a priority. With all that sex, they didn't want to give each other a rash!
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They shaved regularly as a priority. With all that sex, they didn't want to give each other a rash!
very good point!
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I didn't know where to post this but I found this link today and thought I would share it. I'm sure it's probably been posted before. Sorry if it already has.
http://www.buzzimage.com/en/work/making_of/33 (http://www.buzzimage.com/en/work/making_of/33)
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I didn't know where to post this but I found this link today and thought I would share it. I'm sure it's probably been posted before. Sorry if it already has.
http://www.buzzimage.com/en/work/making_of/33 (http://www.buzzimage.com/en/work/making_of/33)
Don't apologize. It's very cool. I haven't seen it for a long time, so I appreciate the reminder.
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Harking back a post or three, BBM was shown on free-to-air TV in New Zealand last Sunday. The reviewer thought (slightly tongue-in-cheek) that NZers would maybe like the sheep connection ;) (I can say that because I grew up there but no-one else is allowed to make sheep jokes >:()
Re. FNIT, what was wrong with Heath's expression, Marc? he looked pretty right to me. Re. his stubble, he is a fair-haired man. (Note the "is" - we Heathens now live in a dreamworld.)
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I didn't know where to post this but I found this link today and thought I would share it. I'm sure it's probably been posted before. Sorry if it already has.
http://www.buzzimage.com/en/work/making_of/33 (http://www.buzzimage.com/en/work/making_of/33)
Don't apologize. It's very cool. I haven't seen it for a long time, so I appreciate the reminder.
And the music is rather nice too.
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I thought the problem w/ Heath's morning-after expression was that it looked like he was acting -- the only moment in the movie when that happens. It was good acting, but not perfectly natural.
I forget where I posted it, but his expressions in The Patriot were marvelous.
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I just checked out the Making of on the Buzz Image link. Wonderful! And the music, which is is a variation of what's on the trailer, is so pretty I started to get choked up.
If only the assholes/idiots/... at Universal would put things like that on the DVD. Maybe I'll make that suggestion to Buzz Image.
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I sent this e-mail to Buzz Images about a half-hour ago:
**************
Today was the first time I'd seen your Brokeback clip on your site. It's a marvelous job of showing your contributions to what I and others think is one of the best movies ever made.
I had a suggestion. Many people have been frustrated at how incomplete the Brokeback DVDs have been: no trailer; no commentary; etc. I've written to Universal and Focus Features, but they don't care.
So my suggestion is this: How about if Buzz Images suggests to Universal that -- whenever they put out another Brokeback DVD -- they include your material on how the shots were composed?
I hope you have better luck than I did in persuading Universal or Focus Features to do justice to the film.
Thank you for your consideration.
Marc
***************
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I've watched the Buzz Image video about five times now. In the shot of the sheep going up the valley on the right, I'd never looked at the left side of the screen and seen the sheep on the hilltop. I will next time.
Since Heath's death, the only time I've seen the movie all the way through was at the Castro Theatre last month. I've started it a couple of times at home, but not gotten much past their first summer. I used to average once a week.
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im sure your get back to watching the whole film in time
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Jesus, almost all I've been doing this afternoon is listening on headphones to the Buzz Image music and crying. And sometimes getting work done.
The music is extraordinary.
I predict I'll watch the movie this evening.
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(https://ultimatebrokebackforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi46.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Ff104%2FvcdrtPH%2Fcard-thresher3.jpg&hash=1792704cfca829243b382c5202ab922ccba5aceb)
Maybe it has been mentioned in one thread or another, but 4/10 was the anniversary of the crushing of the Thresher in 1963, as I was 'reminded' on one of my visits to Bettermost this morning. For film-only people, that event is one of the things J&E talk about when they are just getting real interested in each other.
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I can't believe that in the msn.com list of films that changed lives there is Jaws but not BBM >:( >:( >:(
http://entertainment.uk.msn.com/movies/galleries/gallery.aspx?cp-documentid=8073895 (http://entertainment.uk.msn.com/movies/galleries/gallery.aspx?cp-documentid=8073895)
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Yeah, well, I haven't been keen on sharks since --- oh, wait up, I haven't seen Jaws.
And Dal, where is the DECEASED stamp? Shouldn't there be one across that envelope?
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Ouch, Dal - this piece makes the Thresher tragedy very real - and now we all know what it feels like getting one of them returned cards :'( May those heroic marines rest in peace...
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I can't believe that in the msn.com list of films that changed lives there is Jaws but not BBM >:( >:( >:(
http://entertainment.uk.msn.com/movies/galleries/gallery.aspx?cp-documentid=8073895 (http://entertainment.uk.msn.com/movies/galleries/gallery.aspx?cp-documentid=8073895)
Jaws changed my life too! Ever since I saw it in the 70s I have been avoiding the re-runs on television!
Let me think-- anything else? Made me a Richard Dreyfuss fan. Nope. That came later.
Um -- exacerbated fear of sharks? nope, like Mini. A., that was already in place at birth. Of course, it did raise my awareness of sharks. But I don't think it would stop me from buying beachfront property.
OK, maybe they mean, launched Stephen Spielberg's career. That was life-changing for sure. I guess every movie changes at least one person's life in some way. :D
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Ouch, Dal - this piece makes the Thresher tragedy very real - and now we all know what it feels like getting one of them returned cards :'( May those heroic marines rest in peace...
:'( :'( :'(
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I think I remember hearing that the latest AFI list of top 100 movies didn't include BBM. And if that's true, then all such lists are worthless and not worth the keystrokes to bemoan them.
Including these.
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And Dal, where is the DECEASED stamp? Shouldn't there be one across that envelope?
"I'll take 'Obsolete Regional Post-office Practices' for a thousand." [aka "Darned if I know"] Was the loss of the ship made known immediately? New model, nuclear -- they may have kept the event very close until the initial investigation was finished. I'm sure there were a lot of things aboard that the Navy wanted to either recover, or to make certain that they were not lying around somewhere for the Russian navy to pick up. So the letter sat around 'unclaimed,' until it was so stamped, and returned.
Yes, your honor, I swear that's what happened! honest![IOW I've been spinning BS here. Maybe something like that, though]
I can't believe that in the msn.com list of films that changed lives there is Jaws but not BBM >:( >:( >:(
Jaws changed my life too! Ever since I saw it in the 70s I have been avoiding the re-runs on television!
My Gramma never took a shower for (I guess) 35 years after she saw Psycho; only tub baths. Such was the power of the movie, in the days before slasher flicks had become bread and butter.
Jaws Schmaws, ptui. Changing lives -- what about Jud Suess? or Triumph des Willens? There's a couple of life-changers for you. Jaws! [TdW is way scarier than any fish movie, too, of course. And the bad guy wins]
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A friend of mine sent me this video that has nothing to do with BBM,
but since it has to do with Austraila, Heath Ledger's homeland, I thought I'd
post it on here for all to enjoy. It is amazing to think all this is done with lights.
Can it be real?
www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUm4TOPs3J4
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Dal, I'll never forget "Triumph of the Will", in Film class in college. What a flick.
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A friend of mine sent me this video that has nothing to do with BBM,
but since it has to do with Austraila, Heath Ledger's homeland, I thought I'd
post it on here for all to enjoy. It is amazing to think all this is done with lights.
Can it be real?
www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUm4TOPs3J4
Yes, it's real.
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A friend of mine sent me this video that has nothing to do with BBM,
but since it has to do with Austraila, Heath Ledger's homeland, I thought I'd
post it on here for all to enjoy. It is amazing to think all this is done with lights.
Can it be real?
www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUm4TOPs3J4
Oh, that was quite lovely....
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An interesting bit about the costumes for Ennis wedding, straight from the Calgary Herald:
http://www.canada.com/calgaryherald/news/story.html?id=cb7cfe27-7711-4744-be27-cd2e413940bc (http://www.canada.com/calgaryherald/news/story.html?id=cb7cfe27-7711-4744-be27-cd2e413940bc)
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thanks for that what a cool job!
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Ah hah! So that solves the question of whether Ennis is wearing slacks or not in the wedding portrait (which is b&w so you can't tell). What lovely attention to detail.
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I love that she looks just like her Pee Wee Herman doll! :)
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I gave a close friend a pee-wee Herman doll years ago for her b-day; never laughed so hard, I swear. It seems right that Ennis would wear jeans and let the best man-KE?-wear the pants. Like he doesn't feel worthy or something....
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A sign of poverty, I'd say - they can't afford decent clothes, yet the best man has to look his best
Or because Ennis is only half-heartedly into this marriage, the part that shows is dressed up, the part that doesn't wears jeans like on the mountain
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I like that bit of symbolism, Mouk. In a practical sense, I'd say KE, the married man, owns a suit (probably his own wedding suit) so he loans his kid brother the jacket so he can look half smart on his big day.
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This sounds totally plausible, if less poetic ;)
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Totally NOT related to the film or story...
is there a thread for internet technical questions? I'm interested in getting some info on "banners"... in a language I, a non-computer person, can understand.
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An interesting article with a quote from Ang Lee about what he feel is censorship in film and video:
In a quote from those who disagreed with Lee, I particulary liked, ""I'm surprised about the comments of Mr. Ang Lee, director of the world acclaimed movie Brokeback Mountain." I'll go along with the bolded part. :)
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20080422.BUZZ22-1/TPStory/TPEntertainment/Television/
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A sign of poverty, I'd say - they can't afford decent clothes, yet the best man has to look his best
Or because Ennis is only half-heartedly into this marriage, the part that shows is dressed up, the part that doesn't wears jeans like on the mountain
I like that alot, Moukster. His heart is only half in it....
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It's not his heart that isn't in it - it's his lower half! :D. (But I like that idea too).
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Totally NOT related to the film or story...
is there a thread for internet technical questions? I'm interested in getting some info on "banners"... in a language I, a non-computer person, can understand.
Doodler, you can post your specific question here and we will try to help.
New Members Ask -- Experienced Members Respond (http://davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=4687.0) even though you are not a new member we pick up any technical quations there.
Nax
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A sign of poverty, I'd say - they can't afford decent clothes, yet the best man has to look his best
Or because Ennis is only half-heartedly into this marriage, the part that shows is dressed up, the part that doesn't wears jeans like on the mountain
I like that alot, Moukster. His heart is only half in it....
And guess which part is not in it at all? the one in the jeans, yep this part is NOT dressed up for the occasion :o >:D >:D >:D :D
Edited: Ooops, I had not seen Desecra's post. Well, that's where great minds meet ... ;) :D
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It's not his heart that isn't in it - it's his lower half! :D. (But I like that idea too).
Well, you know what I mean...but yeah, that is appropriate that the lower half is the cowboy up on BBM.
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Totally NOT related to the film or story...
is there a thread for internet technical questions? I'm interested in getting some info on "banners"... in a language I, a non-computer person, can understand.
Doodler, you can post your specific question here and we will try to help.
New Members Ask -- Experienced Members Respond (http://davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=4687.0) even though you are not a new member we pick up any technical quations there.
Nax
Thanks... on my way there now!
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i really wanna get the soundtrack anyone got it?
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About a tribute to Larry McMurtry, and McMurtry's tribute to books:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/patt-morrison/from-lonesome-dove-to-lon_b_99622.html (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/patt-morrison/from-lonesome-dove-to-lon_b_99622.html)
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he hasn't died has he?
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Funny story. Today some of my students took their Advanced Placement Spanish Language test (I teach English). One of the oral questions asked them to compare and contrast the biographies of Gustavo Santaolalla and another composer whose name I can't remember. They had to record their answers into a tape recorder. The reason they were upset with the question is because none of them could pronounce his name! It is quite a tongue-twister I have to admit, especially for an oral exam. ;D
Still, nice to see Gustavo getting that kind of recognition.
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Hee, I think his name is pretty easy... Gu- STAH-voh. What's so hard about that?
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Hee, I think his name is pretty easy... Gu- STAH-voh. What's so hard about that?
;D
Good one.
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Probably off-topic, but I am not sure where to post it
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080506/ap_en_ot/challenged_books (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080506/ap_en_ot/challenged_books)
Not unexpected, but sad all the same... >:(
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Well Mouk it doesn't fit anywhere else (maybe the diner for a live general discussion) however for noter, there were a pair of male flamingos in a zoo that did exactly this for real.
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Yes I remember the flamingoes, this was a great story :)
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I have a gorgeous close-up pix of a flamingo as my opening page. (Is that what
it's called? The page where my computer first opens when I turn it on?)
Everytime I go to change it to something else, I look at it and realize what
could be better? The color in the feathers is staggering. The shape of the head.
The long neck. A bird both gorgeous and odd.
Apropos of nothing, I know. ;D
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This may have already been mentioned:
"A Tribute to Heath Ledger"
is on Disc 2 of the "I"M NOT THERE"
(region 1) two-disc collectors edition DVD.
Disc 1 also has some comments about Heath.
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Thanks Lislis, it might be wortgh posting that in the Planet Heath thread Click here (http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=29611.0)
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I just reposted it over there for the benefit of all us heartsore Heathens.
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Maybe it has been mentioned in one thread or another, but 4/10 was the anniversary of the crushing of the Thresher in 1963, as I was 'reminded' on one of my visits to Bettermost this morning. For film-only people, that event is one of the things J&E talk about when they are just getting real interested in each other.
Hi y'all
I just found this interesting thread and am now catching up on it.
Can someone please enlighten me, what was (is?) the crushing of the Thresher?? How is it related to J and E?
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HI Sason - the Thresher was a submarine which sank in 1963. In the book, Ennis and Jack talk about the Thresher going down and what it must have been like in the last minutes - it's part of a conversation before the first night in the tent, when they're getting to know each other.
http://www.nationalgeographic.com/k19/disasters_detail2.html
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Thanks a lot, Desecra, for that info!!
I had no idea.....
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You're welcome :)
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One of the more unusual usages I've found - "Brokeback Syndrome" ??
http://www.channelregister.co.uk/2008/05/16/amd_response_intel
AMD's charges against Intel center on what we're calling Brokeback Syndrome.
Intel's lucrative pricing, co-marketing and financial incentives, we're told,
made it near impossible for customers to quit the chip vendor.
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Interesting, but I have no idea what it means.......
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One of the more unusual usages I've found - "Brokeback Syndrome" ??
http://www.channelregister.co.uk/2008/05/16/amd_response_intel
AMD's charges against Intel center on what we're calling Brokeback Syndrome.
Intel's lucrative pricing, co-marketing and financial incentives, we're told,
made it near impossible for customers to quit the chip vendor.
hahahaha!!!
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Interesting, but I have no idea what it means.......
They wish they knew how to quit!
That is cute. It's especially notable because it is a really mainstream usage, not referring only to gays.
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Apparently, "Brokeback Mountain" received a government-sanctioned airing on Cuban TV as a part of the national "Combat Homophobia Day" in that country.
http://www.dailynews.com/news/ci_9296544
Cuba holds gay-rights rally, shows `Brokeback Mountain'
The Associated Press
Article Last Updated: 05/17/2008 09:34:43 PM PDT
HAVANA - Cuba's gay community celebrated unprecedented openness - and high-ranking political alliances - with a government-backed campaign against homophobia on Saturday.
The meeting at a convention center in Havana's Vedado district may have been the largest gathering of openly gay activists ever on the communist-run island. President Raul Castro's daughter Mariela, who has promoted the rights of sexual minorities, presided.
Mariela Castro joined government leaders and hundreds of activists at the one-day conference for the International Day Against Homophobia that featured shows, lectures, panel discussions and book presentations. A station also offered blood tests for sexually transmitted diseases. Cuban state TV gave prime-time play Friday to the U.S. film "Brokeback Mountain," which tells the story of two cowboys who conceal their homosexual affair.
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HI Sason - the Thresher was a submarine which sank in 1963. In the book, Ennis and Jack talk about the Thresher going down and what it must have been like in the last minutes - it's part of a conversation before the first night in the tent, when they're getting to know each other.
http://www.nationalgeographic.com/k19/disasters_detail2.html
Thank you. I never would have remembered that line.
So I went back and read the story again today, and I noticed something else. I don't know if it's been discussed before.
It's from this paragraph:
The summer went on and they moved the herd to new pasture, shifted the camp; the distance between the sheep and the new camp was greater and the night ride longer. Ennis rode easy, sleeping with his eyes open, but the hours he was away from the sheep stretched out and out. Jack pulled a squalling burr out of the harmonica, flattened a little from a fall off the skittish bay mare, and Ennis had a good raspy voice; a few nights they mangled their way through some songs. Ennis knew the salty words to “Strawberry Roan.” Jack tried a Carl Perkins song, bawling “What I say-ay-ay,” but he favored a sad hymn, “Water-Walking Jesus,” learned from his mother, who believed in the Pentecost, and that he sang at dirge slowness, setting off distant coyote yips.
I looked up the lyrics for 'Strawberry Roan"
I was hangin' 'round town, just spendin' my time
Out of a job, not earnin' a dime
A feller steps up and he said, "I suppose
You're a bronc fighter from looks of your clothes."
"You figures me right, I'm a good one." I claim
"Do you happen to have any bad ones to tame?"
Said "He's got one, a bad one to buck
At throwin' good riders, he's had lots of luck."
I gets all het up and I ask what he pays
To ride this old nag for a couple of days
He offered me ten; I said, "I'm your man,
A bronc never lived that I couldn't span."
He said: "Get your saddle, I'll give you a chance"
In his buckboard we hopped and he drives to the ranch
I stayed 'til mornin' and right after chuck
I stepped out to see if this outlaw can buck.
Down in the horse corral standin' alone
Is an old Caballo, a Strawberry Roan
His legs are all spavined, he's got pigeon toes
Little pig eyes and a big Roman nose
Little pin ears that touched at the tip
A big 44 brand was on his left hip
U-necked and old, with a long, lower jaw
I could see with one eye, he's a regular outlaw.
I gets the blinds on 'im and it sure is a fright
Next comes the saddle and I screws it down tight
Then I steps on 'im and I raises the blinds
Get outta the way boys, he's gonna unwind
He sure is a frog-walker, he heaves a big sigh
He only lacks wings, for to be on the fly
He turns his old belly right up to the sun
He sure is a sun-fishin', son-of-a-gun.
He's about the worst bucker I've seen on the range
He'll turn on a Nickel and give you some change
He hits on all fours and goes up on high
Leaves me a spinnin' up there in the sky
I turns over twice and I comes back to earth
I lights in a cussin' the day of his birth
I know there are ponies that I cannot ride
There's some of them left, they haven't all died.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Probably just my imagination, but it seems like the screenwriters must have read the lyrics too.
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The salty lyrics are decidedly saltier, John. From memory they have something to do with castration and goodness knows what else. It's a long while since I read them.
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Interesting, but I have no idea what it means.......
They wish they knew how to quit!
That is cute. It's especially notable because it is a really mainstream usage, not referring only to gays.
OK, thanks. It makes sense now..... I'm not so good at this financial-technological English.... :D :D
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The salty lyrics are decidedly saltier, John. From memory they have something to do with castration and goodness knows what else. It's a long while since I read them.
I've found this version, don't know if it's salty enough for our Marian :)
VERSE 1
I was hang'n 'round town
In a house of ill fame
Layed up with a twist
Of a hustl'n dame
And a hop-headed pig
With his nose full of coke
Beat me out'a my whore
An' left me stone-broke
When up steps a stranger
Said he say, my lad
Are you any good ride'n
Horses that's bad
I said, you damn right
That's one thing I can do
I'm a second rate pimp
But a good buckeroo
VERSE 2
O, that strawberry roan
How many colts has he thrown
He's got gonareeha, th glonders an' syph
Th blue-balls n' claps
But his tool is still stiff
Look out for that strawberry roan
VERSE 3
When a good look'n filly
Would come inta heat
Was th strawberry roan
That throwed her th meat
Th upshot of it was
I found myself hired
T' snap out some bronc's
This roan stud had sired
Their knot-head cayuse's
Just like their Dad
Most of them roans
An' all of thems bad
With their feet in my pockets
Them bastards would fight
Till my ass drug my tracks
Along before night
VERSE 4
With my balls in my boots
N' my mouth full of shit
I'se plumb tuckered out
N' ready to quit
Whenever I thought
I h'd one of them r'de
He busted my ass
An' I found myself throwed
Then th boss come around
He said, that's enough
Th strawberry roan's
Colts are to tough
I'm a get'n damn sick
Of you take'n them falls
We'll get that windmill'n stud
N' we'll cut out his balls
VERSE 5
O, that strawberry roan
We went out to unbend his bone
I built a big loop
N' went to th corral
I roped his front feet
He jumped, he kicked
He snorted, he firted n' fell
I flattened that strawberry roan
VERSE 6
Well, th boss held his head
While I hog-tied his legs
I got out my knife
N' I went for his eggs
He knowed what I wanted
He knowed it damn well
Cause he fought like a tiger
An' he squealed like hell
Well, I opened his bag
N' he let out a moan
He squealed like a shoate
When I cut out that stone
But all I could locate
T'was one of his nuts
The other was swimin'
Some place in his guts
Well, I'm swim'n in blood
N I felt someth'n pass
But its only a tird
On th way to his ass
VERSE 7
Well, th boss said, I'm sick
Of this hard buck'n breed
If it takes us all night
We'll get that other seed
Just then I heard one of them
Blood curdlein' squalls
An' the strawberry roan
Had th boss by th balls
Well, I stomped on his head
But it was no use
He's just like a bulldog
He would'nt turn loose
I untied his legs
N' he got t' his feet
The bosses voice changed
An' I knew he was beat
VERSE 8
O, that strawberry roan
I advise you to leave him alone
He's a knot-headed cayuse
With only one ball
But th boss is a un-nicke
With no balls at all
Look out fer that strawberry roan
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That sounds like the one I read! I like the echo in the film of Ennis castrating calves. I feel there's a vague connection with the fathers symbolically castrating their two sons via the bathroom scene and the Earl scene.
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(might have already been posted)
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,360402,00.html#1
The word from the inner workings at Warner Bros.
Heath Ledger’s family will journey from Australia to New York
this summer for the premiere of “The Dark Knight.”
The film opens on July 18th.
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I can tell by the effect the commercials have on me that I am not going to be able to watch The Dark Knight, at least for some time but a thought occured to me...
why is Heath's part considered a supporting role rather than a starring one? The film is not titled Batman Against the Dark Knight or even Batman AND the Dark Knight. Seems to me that the title character would be a starring role and therefore, eligible for a Best Actor award. Anybody have any insight on this?
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Plus the fact that all the marketing is based on the Dark Knight himself.
It is probably tricky because this is part of of Batman series where Batman has been the main character so far (so I assume, never watched them). Just as Jake G being in the support role in BBM was an unsatisfatory arrangement as both were really main characters.
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I understand what you're are saying about Jake's part in Brokeback and THAT really was tricky... I think there can be more than one "star" in a movie... otherwise how could you have a Best ActOR and Best ActRESS nomination for the same movie which happens often enough.
BUT The Dark Knight is an entirely different kettle of fish, Batman series or not. It would certainly be possible to do a series showcasing different characters in a story line and not even have the "main" character in the film... say a series of Superman films where one episode is about Lois Lane BEFORE she meets Superman or he could be just PART of the story of her life.
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can anyone reply my question if i asked about a part in the film??
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can anyone reply my question if i asked about a part in the film??
Ask away... around here, someone always knows the answer.
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I'm not certain about this but I believe the studio/producer is responsible for the classification of the role in the movie as actor or supporting actor with only one role allowed in each. Jake's role is slightly smaller than Heath's but since both could not be nominated for a single category, Jake ended up as a supporting actor. I think it is generally agreed that Heath gave the stronger performance which may have also influenced the classification.
Anne Hathaway is on the cover of this week's Parade (June 1). In the article, she says this about Heath's death: That was a shocker... I hesitate to talk about Heath. He was special in so many ways. I can tell you that I feel I cared about him more than I actually knew him. It was devastating, and the people who were closest to him should talk about him in their own time.
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I'm repeating myself, but the discussion is back.
I've always thought one reason for the timing was to keep AIDS off the table. Also, Jack's relationship w/ Randall is a good reason why Jack wouldn't have been exposed. This assumes he's having sex only w/Randall and Ennis, a reasonable assumption given how important Randall has become.
I agree that for the purposes of this story AIDS is taken off the table. (Although the New York Times by then had been reporting on GRID and many people who died in the early 80s were no doubt initially infected prior to the time that Randall and Jack were dating.)
However, I respectfully disagree with the assumption that Jack was only having sex with Randall and Ennis. He was probably also occasionally fulfilling his husbandly duties and possibly still taking trips down to Mexico. If one believes that the car accident story was the official cover for a tire iron assault, it could be because Jack propositioned the wrong person. This is in no way to judge Jack. I have nothing but respect for him because I was him. (Ironically, my boyfriend is a lot like Ennis.) From personal experience and from witnessing others I know how compartmentalized one can be when one is closeted, living in secrets and/or in an emotional hurricane with crosswinds from every direction.
We know that Jack mentioned Randall to his father, but not in a way that made a deep enough impression for his father to Remember Randall's name. Ennis was still expecting to meet up with Jack on Brokeback Mountain. While we know that Randall had become important enough to Jack for Jack to mention him, we really have no idea how important Jack was to Randall. There are absolutely no clues in the story or the movie that Randall had any intention of joining Jack on his ranch, or leaving his wife at all. Depending on what one believes on life after death and dreams, I've always seen Jack appearing in Ennis' dreams as a sign that Jack never fully moved on despite his atempt. Also, depending on what one believes about when someone dies, I think at some level Jack's soul was ready to go. May he realized he wasn't going to get his ranch dream with anyone, neither Ennis nor Randall. This is all conjecture and speculation, of course, which any great work of art brings up.
Proulx and Larry/Diana wisely do no fill in the blanks for us. Like Ennis, we are left merely with what we think we know.
Jack might have really moved on and elevated Randall to Ennis' status, or not. And, Jack had not been monogamous before. I just don't think we can assume he was all of a sudden monogamous. He may have been. He may not have been. And we don't know if Randall was monogamous either because we know very little about him.
What's so amazing about this beautiful and divinely inspired book/film is that it provides each of us a template to fill in these blanks with our own experience, emotion and vision, to have the catharsis and insight we need.
I truly believe this book and film was channeled from the Great Creator first through Annie, then Larry/Diana, Heath/Jake/Michelle/Anne, Gustavo/Rodrigo and everyone who produced and worked on this film at every level. Sometimes a little slice of heaven is indeed manifested as a work of art. In this case it definitely was.
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I'm not certain about this but I believe the studio/producer is responsible for the classification of the role in the movie as actor or supporting actor with only one role allowed in each. Jake's role is slightly smaller than Heath's but since both could not be nominated for a single category, Jake ended up as a supporting actor. I think it is generally agreed that Heath gave the stronger performance which may have also influenced the classification.
Actually, that's not quite true. Nowdaays, the actor or produces decide how to market for the Oscars and other awards, but there are many instances of two or three actors being nominated from the same film for the same acting category.
Critics awards occasionally diverge from the expected category. It is speculated that one reason that neither Marlon Brando nor Al Pacino won either Best Lead or Supporting Actor from the New York Film Critics Circle was because they couldn't decide whether each actor was lead or supporting. The Golden Globes I think insisted that Jake be listed as a lead along with Heath. Meryl Streep won a couple of critics awards for Supporting Actress for The Devil Wears Prada and a Globe for Leading Actress in a Comedy.
Even with the campaign, there are still wrenches that come up. In 1981, Susan Sarandon was promoted as Best Supporting Actress for Atlantic City for the entire awards season and when the nominations were announced she ended up in the leading category to her surprise and the producers.
In 1944, Barry Fitzgerald was nominated for BOTH lead and support for the same role in Going My Way. The rules were changed shortly thereafter.
I'd have to double check this, but believe the rules have been changed now so that all votes for a role are added up and counted in the category where it receives the most votes and an actor with more than one film with votes in the same category, will have both votes count, but that the film with the top number of votes will be the one he is nominated form. Or the rules could have changed again. One complaint some critics have is that leading performances are targeted for supporting nominations, but end up pushing out a genuinely supporting performance. Gene Siskel used to call it "stealing a slot" from a deserving supporting actor.
There is still unfortunately no rule for all but a few categories like Foreign Language Film that requires the Academy members voting in a category to actually bother seeing ALL the nominations before voting on them.
The decision to promote and market Jake for supporting actor was no doubt the producers. They producers could have easily decided to promote both Heath and Jake as leading actors, which would have been arguably true. Heath had more screen time and ultimately the story pivots around Ennis' journey. While I think both of these roles are leading, I'm glad they didn't divide the votes and Jake won the BAFTA and National Board of Review Award and Heath won the New York Film Critics Award, which may not have happened if they had been splitting votes. (They both should have won the Oscar and the SAG Award, IMO.)
Anne Hathaway is on the cover of this week's Parade (June 1). In the article, she says this about Heath's death: That was a shocker... I hesitate to talk about Heath. He was special in so many ways. I can tell you that I feel I cared about him more than I actually knew him. It was devastating, and the people who were closest to him should talk about him in their own time.
Wow, I think that's how many of us feel, and we knew him even less than she did. And we will hear from others in future interviews no doubt in their own time.
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We are not actually asking about Jake/Heath/Brokeback but about Heath's role in in The Dark Knight. It seems a little odd that AS the title character he would be eligible for a SUPPORTING nomination but not the BEST award. That would be like an actor portraying the Pope in a movie entitled The Pope getting a supporting nod while the actor portraying the President of Italy got the best nomination because The Pope was part of a series on influences on Italian Presidents.
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I think the discussion about the Dark Night is to be found elsewhere. And besides, isn't the Dark Knight, Batman?
Even after doing some (semi-)serious looking-about, I have still not determined how the AA nominations are determined. We all know all about the For Your Considerations ads (and DVDs and such) after the nominations are announced but I haven't been able to find who determines and how the nominations are determined -- even from the official AA site.
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Doodler, as Constant Reader says, the Dark Knight is actually Batman. The Joker is but one of the villains in the film, albeit a pretty impressive one. I have also wondered out loud if perhaps Heath's role might be Best Actor worthy but it seems he just isn't in it enough. My one hope is that, IF he is nominated in either category, and IF he wins, it's not just viewed as a sympathy vote because a) he missed out on the one he should have got, and b) he's dead.
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I'm repeating myself, but the discussion is back.
I've always thought one reason for the timing was to keep AIDS off the table. Also, Jack's relationship w/ Randall is a good reason why Jack wouldn't have been exposed. This assumes he's having sex only w/Randall and Ennis, a reasonable assumption given how important Randall has become.
I agree that for the purposes of this story AIDS is taken off the table. (Although the New York Times by then had been reporting on GRID and many people who died in the early 80s were no doubt initially infected prior to the time that Randall and Jack were dating.)
However, I respectfully disagree with the assumption that Jack was only having sex with Randall and Ennis. He was probably also occasionally fulfilling his husbandly duties and possibly still taking trips down to Mexico. If one believes that the car accident story was the official cover for a tire iron assault, it could be because Jack propositioned the wrong person. This is in no way to judge Jack. I have nothing but respect for him because I was him. (Ironically, my boyfriend is a lot like Ennis.) From personal experience and from witnessing others I know how compartmentalized one can be when one is closeted, living in secrets and/or in an emotional hurricane with crosswinds from every direction.
We know that Jack mentioned Randall to his father, but not in a way that made a deep enough impression for his father to Remember Randall's name. Ennis was still expecting to meet up with Jack on Brokeback Mountain. While we know that Randall had become important enough to Jack for Jack to mention him, we really have no idea how important Jack was to Randall. There are absolutely no clues in the story or the movie that Randall had any intention of joining Jack on his ranch, or leaving his wife at all. Depending on what one believes on life after death and dreams, I've always seen Jack appearing in Ennis' dreams as a sign that Jack never fully moved on despite his atempt. Also, depending on what one believes about when someone dies, I think at some level Jack's soul was ready to go. May he realized he wasn't going to get his ranch dream with anyone, neither Ennis nor Randall. This is all conjecture and speculation, of course, which any great work of art brings up.
Proulx and Larry/Diana wisely do no fill in the blanks for us. Like Ennis, we are left merely with what we think we know.
Jack might have really moved on and elevated Randall to Ennis' status, or not. And, Jack had not been monogamous before. I just don't think we can assume he was all of a sudden monogamous. He may have been. He may not have been. And we don't know if Randall was monogamous either because we know very little about him.
What's so amazing about this beautiful and divinely inspired book/film is that it provides each of us a template to fill in these blanks with our own experience, emotion and vision, to have the catharsis and insight we need.
I truly believe this book and film was channeled from the Great Creator first through Annie, then Larry/Diana, Heath/Jake/Michelle/Anne, Gustavo/Rodrigo and everyone who produced and worked on this film at every level. Sometimes a little slice of heaven is indeed manifested as a work of art. In this case it definitely was.
CanI give my complete support to this.
I believe that the key to understanding this aspect of the story is in the line "I wish I KNEW HOW to quit you." Jack would love to be able to get over Ennis and move on with someone else, but as he says, he doesn't know how. The shirts, and the fact that he wanted his ashes scattered on Brokeback Mountain, tell us, and Ennis, that ulimately he was never able to do it while he was living.
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i bought the soundtrack yesterday its so beautiful ive been listening to it all day
has anyone else got it?
(hope this is in the right place!)
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i bought the soundtrack yesterday its so beautiful ive been listening to it all day
has anyone else got it?
(hope this is in the right place!)
Marz --
The best place to discuss the Musical Score is in the thread, in Elements and Themes:
http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=297.975
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We are not actually asking about Jake/Heath/Brokeback but about Heath's role in in The Dark Knight. It seems a little odd that AS the title character he would be eligible for a SUPPORTING nomination but not the BEST award. That would be like an actor portraying the Pope in a movie entitled The Pope getting a supporting nod while the actor portraying the President of Italy got the best nomination because The Pope was part of a series on influences on Italian Presidents.
Doodler, as Constant Reader says, the Dark Knight is actually Batman. The Joker is but one of the villains in the film, albeit a pretty impressive one. I have also wondered out loud if perhaps Heath's role might be Best Actor worthy but it seems he just isn't in it enough. My one hope is that, IF he is nominated in either category, and IF he wins, it's not just viewed as a sympathy vote because a) he missed out on the one he should have got, and b) he's dead.
gosh I didn't know Batman was the "dark knight" :o
Even so, it seems that the "villain" in the Batman movies is always thought of as a cameo role -- the type of role where a name actor gets to do something different and creative. The marketing would always focus on the villain for name recognition.
If Heath were alive, would we expect the designation to be different? Maybe.
I kind of think it is a matter of tradition. For my part I am grateful Heath didn't play Batman. I think it would be hard for any actor to win an Academy Award playing Batman.
Anyway -- we are a lot less hung up on those categorizations than we used to be, RIGHT?
I truly think in Brokeback Mountain it was probably not a true ranking to call Jake a "supporting actor." In our best fantasies, however, both Jake and Heath should have won those oscars. ;)
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Doodler, as Constant Reader says, the Dark Knight is actually Batman.
Oops! Well, it just goes to show my level of interest in all things comic book! (Along with my NATURAL assumption that anything Heath is in is all about his character.) I suppose Batman is the 'dark knight' because of the black suit?
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We are not actually asking about Jake/Heath/Brokeback but about Heath's role in in The Dark Knight. It seems a little odd that AS the title character he would be eligible for a SUPPORTING nomination but not the BEST award. That would be like an actor portraying the Pope in a movie entitled The Pope getting a supporting nod while the actor portraying the President of Italy got the best nomination because The Pope was part of a series on influences on Italian Presidents.
Doodler, as Constant Reader says, the Dark Knight is actually Batman. The Joker is but one of the villains in the film, albeit a pretty impressive one. I have also wondered out loud if perhaps Heath's role might be Best Actor worthy but it seems he just isn't in it enough. My one hope is that, IF he is nominated in either category, and IF he wins, it's not just viewed as a sympathy vote because a) he missed out on the one he should have got, and b) he's dead.
.....I truly think in Brokeback Mountain it was probably not a true ranking to call Jake a "supporting actor." In our best fantasies, however, both Jake and Heath should have won those oscars. ;)
Well, at least Jake got the Best Supporting Actor' British oscar. (BAFTA)
And didn't he look thunderstruck. :)
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Why do you say that...?
(https://ultimatebrokebackforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv157%2Fdandydoodles%2Fjakewinsatbaftacourtesyofyoutube.jpg&hash=e3c0faf489a9f13240dd5338e94c1209d06a959a)
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Wikipedia update needed:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brokeback_Mountain
The 2nd Daily Variety ad isn't mentioned.
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What's so amazing about this beautiful and divinely inspired book/film is that it provides each of us a template to fill in these blanks with our own experience, emotion and vision, to have the catharsis and insight we need.
[
Thank you for those wise words, Dan!!
That is so so true!!!
I see this film as a catalyst, it brings up hidden emotions within us that need to get out there and be dealt with. They can be different for each one of us, but I keep wondering if we Brokies have something more in common than just our love for and reactions to this film. I mean, WHY has this film affected us so much? Do we all share some deep and well hidden experience that make us react so strongly on this film?? ???
I keep thinking that there is so much more to it than we probably think.....
It's truly a magical and divine film and shows us the power of extraordinary great art.
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Annie Proulx interview. She no longer answers questions about BBM and does not want any of her other works turned into a film.
http://www.redorbit.com/news/entertainment/1411525/the_richness_of_nearly_empty_places/ (http://www.redorbit.com/news/entertainment/1411525/the_richness_of_nearly_empty_places/)
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Hey thanks mouk-- and the following is printed at the end of the article -- Evidently Annie will be interviewed by Michael Silverblatt Wednesday night, Jun 4, on radio. I hope we'll be able to get it on the web.
***********
Lannan Readings and Conversations presents Annie Proulx with Michael Silverblatt
7 p.m. Wednesday, June 4
Lensic Performing Arts Center, 211 W. San Francisco St.
$6, $3 students & seniors; 988-1234
Rebroadcast at 6 p.m. Saturday, June 7, on KUNM-FM 89.9 and at 2 p.m. Sunday, June 8; on KSFR-FM 101.1
(c) 2008 The Santa Fe New Mexican. Provided by ProQuest Information and Learning. All rights Reserved.
Source: The Santa Fe New Mexican
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Did y'all see/hear this news? Sounds interesting!!!
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080608/ap_en_ot/ny_city_opera_brokeback_mountain
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Thanks for that, there is some discussion going on in the Diner about it. I think the Opera thread is still open too. We did have some discussions about this last year.
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This just in from Yahoo entertainment:
NEW YORK - The New York City Opera commissioned Charles Wuorinen to compose an opera based on "Brokeback Mountain," the 1997 short story by Annie Proulx that became the basis for a 2005 movie that won three Academy Awards.
How cool is that! ;D
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"The opera is scheduled to premiere in spring 2013, City Opera said Sunday."
Too early to start organizing a gathering to attend the premier? :D :D
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wow, what a great idea!!
maybe too early to start a thread, though. :D
I will go!
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Maybe a little early to discuss the gathering, but we have re-opened the Opera thread:
http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=22452.0 (http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=22452.0)
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Thanks john
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"The opera is scheduled to premiere in spring 2013, City Opera said Sunday."
Too early to start organizing a gathering to attend the premier? :D :D
Never enough time to organize a gathering, never enough........
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so true
gotta think about what im gonna wear when i go to see it
after all we've only got 5 years!
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so true
gotta think about what im gonna wear when i go to see it
after all we've only got 5 years!
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Bravo will premiere the first cable/broadcast this weekend, first viewing on Friday, June 27th. Appropriately, it follows the annual GLAAD movie awards.
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Thank you Peter!
I saw that movie a couple of years ago and I thought it was pretty good.
I might watch it again. ;D
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OK, now I had a party in late January one year and handed out straw cowboy hats for everyone who attended. I guess you could say I had a favorite in the Oscar horse race and was feeling pretty cocky after the golden globes. We drank champagne and toasted after every golden dude was given to what I think is the most amazing movie ever made. It was touching, it was real, it moved me and others to tears and to change our lives. Watching my baby bear crying his eyes out at his second viewing broke my heart. I can close my eyes and hear “what you looking at,” “it could be like this, just like this,” “I swear” and break down and cry and any given moment. Well, like most of us I was crushed by the award going to c#@sh. I was personally hurt. I felt betrayed and deeply sad by the out come.
Well, that brings me to today or a couple of pieces of paper left on my door a couple of days ago. “We are going to be filming in your neighborhood” it said. June 26th the TV series of…now get this… c#@sh will be filming next door. Blood and bloody ashes. Right next door. Yes I guess I could have complained and threw a fuss trying to stop the shoot. Yes I could be that ass but my baby bear is not that kind of man. A good thing is happening in our community he tells me. Well I have held my rage but I am sitting here watching them set up right now. Oh my god.
I guess I do have one consolation. Last night I saw that BBM will be having its TV premier on Bravo tomorrow night. Thank you Bravo for helping me through this crazy mess.
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Well, they've finally shown BBM on regular cable tv.
Bravo has it on tonight.
I watched on and off just to see how they'd censor it.
Well, in the FNIT, they got as far as Jack grabbing Ennis's hand,
then up they went on their knees then they clutched at each
other (as in the film we know and love), but suddenly there is
an over the shoulder shot (over HL's shoulder - which is NOT
in either dvd that I own, by the way) followed immediately
by Ennis pushing Jack down but not, seemingly, on all fours.
Then we hear some hushed noises from outside the tent as the
camera lingers. Then comes the morning after scene.
Though it was mighty interesting to see a few seconds of footage
I'd never seen before, still I consider this cowardice on Bravo's part.
Don't think I'll watch anymore of their version of BBM.
Though I do wonder what they'll do with the SNIT and/or
the Reunion.
But I suppose I shouldn't be churlish.
At least they're making an effort to show the film.
Though not intact.
You know, without the startling physical forcefullness of the
FNIT, the film does seem to lose some of its power.
-
Bravo,
WHERE THE F**K IS THE 2ND NIGHT IN THE TENT!!!
Jack touches Ennis face and then...over! I noticed they had no problem showing them beat the shit out of each other when it was time to come off the mountain though...f'ed up homophobic society.
-
Aguirre: "You weren't getting paid to let the dogs babysit the sheep while you stemmed the rose."
Jack: "According to Bravo and their revisionist editing Ennis and I never really did stem the rose." "I demand an apology and a job..oh, and get Ennis up here too for some more PG13 heavy petting."
-
How pathetic. I really couldn't ever bring myself to watch a bowdlerised version. It's not as if there's all that much in it anyway. Heavens, it wasn't R-rated or anything.
-
No "back door lovin" for Alma either....
-
Jack Fredrick Twist! They left in the WHOLE kiss!
-
I stopped watching where Jack is in the bar and the bartender says "100,000 dollar tractors", the rest of the line was cut.
-
The scene with jack and lurene in the car was different
and
I LOL at Jack Frederick Twist.
I didn't know this was on until husband told me so I missed the alternate FNIT scene. I hope someone DVR'd it and will upload to youtube.
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I stopped watching where Jack is in the bar and the bartender says "100,000 dollar tractors", the rest of the line was cut.
I missed the "and shit" line being cut...this is so pathetic it's laughable. Where they chose to drop in their annoying, self promoting commercials is teeth gnashing as well.
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By the way things are going, it sounds is if this might be the version with the happy ending.
I wish I knew how to quit you!
Well, shucks, Jack, why didn't you just say so?
Ennis falls to knees.
Jack Frederick Twist, will you do me the honor of becomin my wife? No sex involved, obviously.
They hold hands then ride off into the sunset.
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I wasn't going to record it but they're showing it again tonight, so I think I will.
-
I'm wondering about that extra footage that Rosewood mentioned. Surely there's no way Ang would allow his film to be tampered with? Here we are all dying for an extra still from the film, so how did this over-the-shoulder shot happen? I'm not watching BTW. The cable doesn't stretch this far :D
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{snips}
Ennis falls to knees.
. . . No sex involved, obviously.
This is happy? :D
It's sad to think that people are seeing this version, but, I guess, good that they're seeing it at all.
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maybe it will make them curious enough to see the real deal.
sounds like they've butchered it up pretty well.
::)
LMAO at Jack Frederick Twist.
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Epilogue to the "happy" ending:
With the divesiture of AT&T in to "baby" bells in January of 1982 Ennis and Jack were now able to continue their "association" chastely and by phone, with competition providing better long distance rates than ever before. "I'll call ya every four fuckin' years."
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Epilogue to the "happy" ending:
With the divesiture of AT&T in to "baby" bells in January of 1982 Ennis and Jack were now able to continue their "association" chastely and by phone, with competition providing better long distance rates than ever before. "I'll call ya every four fuckin'Frederick years."
Sorry ;D
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Thanks for editing my obsenity...how did that slip through?! Guess that job butchering films for Bravo to air on basic cable is out of the question now.
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Epilogue to the "happy" ending:
With the divesiture of AT&T in to "baby" bells in January of 1982 Ennis and Jack were now able to continue their "association" chastely and by phone, with competition providing better long distance rates than ever before. "I'll call ya every four fuckin'Frederick years."
Sorry ;D
Oh my god, it's Mr Tweedley ;D
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I guess it could have been edited to "horrible' as in "You wanna live your miserable, horrible, life.. go right ahead"
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Jack Horrible Twist just doesn't work for me (or Aguirre ;))
-
That really would be...horrible. :P
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This reminds me of a concert in Bay City a couple of years ago. Kevin Cole was playing "Rhapsody in Blue", and about 2/3 into the piece he lost it. I don't know what the Frederick he was playing, but it wasn't Gershwin. And Kevin is an outstanding pianist. He eventually found his place and finished beautifully, but it was really weird.
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I just went on the Bravo website, just to see what they might be saying about this...event...and there is not one mention of BBM anywhere...it was eerie like this is not even happening...or is it? I am freaking the Fredrick out of myself!
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"Rhapsody In Blue" - hmmmm, maybe he suddenly got a vision of Jake's eyes. That would be enough to make most people lose their place.
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I just went on the Bravo website, just to see what they might be saying about this...event...and there is not one mention of BBM anywhere...it was eerie like this is not even happening...or is it? I am freaking the Fredrick out of myself!
Surely that should be the Fred? ;= ;=
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Fred or Fredrick it's freaked!
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The last scene together is coming up. I can't wait to hear Ennis say "Get the Fred offa me"
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Well, Fred Bravo.
I don't know the rules for what they can show and can't. Maybe they did the best they could.
What I'm really wondering about is people who are inspired by Heath's performance in TDK to watch Brokeback for the first time. Surely there will be some, and just as surely, some will be deeply affected.
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Jack: "There is somethin' I been meaning to tell you too...my middle name ain't Fred."
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Well, Fred Bravo.
I don't know the rules for what they can show and can't. Maybe they did the best they could.
What I'm really wondering about is people who are inspired by Heath's performance in TDK to watch Brokeback for the first time. Surely there will be some, and just as surely, some will be deeply affected.
You are right...I kid with a mixture of misplaced anger and love...just like with my family!
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Frickin' Flings with Fred... :)
-
I feel horrible
That was the first time I laughed during that final scene together. It's usually where I start crying.
-
I gotta get me one of those high-altitude flings.
-
Bravo,
WHERE THE F**K IS THE 2ND NIGHT IN THE TENT!!!
Jack touches Ennis face and then...over! I noticed they had no problem showing them beat the shit out of each other when it was time to come off the mountain though...f'ed up homophobic society.
No SNIT?
Geez.
Well, luckily I didn't hang around long enough.
Honestly can't you see what they've done?
Not only have they merely IMPLIED the FNIT, but they've taken
love out of the equasion. No SNIT, no tenderness shown.
No intensity of emotion.
No love shared. (At least for us to see.)
No Ennis giving himself over to Jack.
No groundwork for what happens over the next
twenty years.
Then why the overwhelming emotional force of the Reunion?
What was it all about?
John Frederick Twist.
Geez.
So then, if you've seen the film in this butchered version,
you simply haven't seen BBM. You haven't seen the
love, therefore you don't get the full meaning of the shirts OR
for that matter, truly understand why the fuss.
Though oddly, the film minus the SNIT is more like the short story
I suppose.
It is ENTIRELY possible that this version was approved by the film makers
and/or production company as some kind of acceptable compromise.
(Hard to believe.)
Otherwise where would they have gotten that split-second over-the-shoulder shot?
Makes me think this was sanctioned in some way.
Hadda be.
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I know what you mean...I was in Fort MacLeod Alberta standing in front of the laundry apartment bawling my eyes out two weeks ago tomorrow...couldn't they have done this with "limited commercial interuptions" at least?
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I know what you mean...I was in Fort MacLeod Alberta standing in front of the laundry apartment bawling my eyes out two weeks ago tomorrow...couldn't they have done this with "limited commercial interuptions" at least?
It should be obvious that the film was cut to ribbons.
Even if you'd never seen it before. Don't you think, tt?
One can only hope that those who've seen this travesty will be curious enough to
seek out the dvd and watch the 'real' BBM.
This film on Bravo should have been An Event.
Limited commercial interruption is the very least they could have done.
-
With the deletions, edits, changes and jarring commercial interruptions I would think the uninitiated would be unmoved and confused.
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Ok that was fucked up.
They zipped through the end credits with NO MUSIC, and then started the second showing of the movie while the credits were still running.
-
AHHHHH, now 1/2 the screen is the start of the movie (2nd time) and the other 1/2 of the screen is the credits from the first...this isn't "Weekend at Bernie's" a little more respect, a little less commerce!
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The only thing I liked about this was trading quips with BayCityJohn and the rest of the gang...Thanks!
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I had a good time too :)
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(https://ultimatebrokebackforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbaycityforums.com%2Fimages%2FSimpsonsScream.jpg&hash=81af65be87b9ed0c64c5c47b040b9d053ce16999)
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I expected them to fade to black right before the reunion kiss.
Figured we see Ennis pushing Jack back and then a slow fadeout, so they fooled me there.
Them high altitude flings are Fredericking hard to bear, ain't they?
I would love to meet the "editors" of this travesty.
Wonder how they let "apple sized balls" slip by them.
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I'm recording the 2nd broadcast now.
I figure it'll make a nice party flick at a future gathering.
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There was no man trying to touch the 'balls the size of apples' just men trying to shoot them off...
How do you edit J & E mid-coversation 'about this food situation'????
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I love that the first two commercials were liquor and hershey bars!
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Hell, you might as well turn the movie into a cartoon.
Ok I think I will ;D
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8125341902068184287 (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8125341902068184287)
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Did you really do that? It was great...better than the movie on Bravo...what was it called, "The Debacle"?
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Thank you. Yes I made that video about 2 years ago.
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Did you really do that? It was great...better than the movie on Bravo...what was it called, "The Debacle"?
or "Mounting Frederick"
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I turned off "Wrong Said Fred" and went and watched your vid again...very impressive!
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I had that vid on youtube for a long time, but I deleted it back in January when I was having my breakdown over Heath and Jackie.
I think I'll put it back on Youtube.
I made another one, a musical, called "The HEATHer on the Hill", but it's a little bizzare. I might re-upload that one too.
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Keep me posted if and when you do put it back on youtube.
I have to say I feel like I did Crack, I am so disoriented by the viewing tonight.
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I had a good time too :)
Me too, and I wasn't even watching.
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I really liked the movie on Bravo tonight. Now I want to see it on the big screen.
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hi, 'Fred'.. ;D ;D..yeah, didn't you just love the whitewashing of the movie on bravo? I got tired of hearing Jack say, 'friggin' instead of F*ckin'. Have you seen the original version? Now that is something to behold...the tent scene-both of them-, are much longer and more, um, enlightening that what you saw on Bravo. I'd get the DVD, pronto, if you have not seen it. ;) :P :)
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Jack Frederick Twist
http://youtube.com/watch?v=cZRbVxVu1zE (http://youtube.com/watch?v=cZRbVxVu1zE)
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What are we looking for in the link, John? thanks.
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Jack Frederick Twist
http://youtube.com/watch?v=cZRbVxVu1zE (http://youtube.com/watch?v=cZRbVxVu1zE)
Says I can't view this in my country!
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Well I'm getting in a bit late on the discussion here. I happened to be flipping through channels last night and did see the "Bravo" version of BBM. Where the hell did they get this? Glad I have the real thing on DVD. Wouldn't Focus / Riverroad, possibly even Ang himself have to approve something like this? Unfortunately, I see this version as something that turns a great film into something just medicore. For those who have never seen BBM before, and happen to catch this version they will most likely brush it off as just another so-so film. Hopefully, they will go out and rent and/or buy the real thing.
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lmao!
Well Frederick Ay! I'm glad I missed the watered down version on Bravo! LMAO
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Jack Frederick Twist
http://youtube.com/watch?v=cZRbVxVu1zE (http://youtube.com/watch?v=cZRbVxVu1zE)
Says I can't view this in my country!
Texans don't have Youtube?
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What are we looking for in the link, John? thanks.
You'd be looking for Jack Frederick Twist
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Well I'm getting in a bit late on the discussion here. I happened to be flipping through channels last night and did see the "Bravo" version of BBM. Where the hell did they get this? Glad I have the real thing on DVD. Wouldn't Focus / Riverroad, possibly even Ang himself have to approve something like this? Unfortunately, I see this version as something that turns a great film into something just medicore. For those who have never seen BBM before, and happen to catch this version they will most likely brush it off as just another so-so film. Hopefully, they will go out and rent and/or buy the real thing.
I don't know, maybe I'm being too hard on Bravo.
I honestly don't know how I could possibly be objective on this after seeing the movie over 60 times.
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Jack Frederick Twist
http://youtube.com/watch?v=cZRbVxVu1zE (http://youtube.com/watch?v=cZRbVxVu1zE)
Says I can't view this in my country!
I found the culprit!!
I just got an email from Youtube this morning
Dear YouTube Member:
NBC Universal has claimed some or all visual content in your video bbr. This claim was made as part of the YouTube Content Identification program.
Your video is no longer visible in some locations, because NBC Universal has chosen to block it.
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Jack Frederick Twist!
That made me laugh so hard that I kept laughing all the way through "the kiss." At least they kept "the kiss" - I suppose because it's been viewed by millions of people millions of time.
Obviously, the Bravo editor somehow got hold of Jack Twists' birth certificate!
The editing on Bravo reminded me of the old afternoon movies they used to show on TV when I was a kid - this was way before cable. The movie would come on at 4PM and had to be over at 5:30, and of course, it was filled with commercials. So the local station would "edit" the movies - I should say "butcher" the movies, to make them fit the time slot. Invariably, when they were showing an old musical, they would cut out any extended dance number! I mean, who watched those things for the plot?
(I live a few miles north of Fredericksburg - that town's never going to be the same for me - ever again!)
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I don't know, maybe I'm being too hard on Bravo.
I honestly don't know how I could possibly be objective on this after seeing the movie over 60 times.
Like yourself John, I've seen BBM many times. I lost count somewhere past 30 viewings. I know I have each line memorized, and literally every scene burned into my brain. What offended me the most was not the fact they had removed the f-word from every scene and either deleted it or replaced it with something else; but they removed key scenes which destroyed the entire structure of the film for me. It was laughable, but yet sad to view.
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Like yourself John, I've seen BBM many times. I lost count somewhere past 30 viewings. I know I have each line memorized, and literally every scene burned into my brain. What offended me the most was not the fact they had removed the f-word from every scene and either deleted it or replaced it with something else; but they removed key scenes which destroyed the entire structure of the film for me. It was laughable, but yet sad to view.
You're right.
And it's doubly offensive to have cut the SNIT like they did since they were obviously showing this in conjunction with the GLAAD awards.
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What is truly sad is that future showings of BBM on commercial TV will be of this version. For that reason, I hope it never gets shown - I would prefer that.
I mean, they put a bra on Ann Hathaway in the Thunderbird scene with Jake. Yet, a moment later, when she bends over him in the back seat, and her back is to us, there are no bra straps!
(Maybe it was one of those bras made out of candy and he chewed it off of her.)
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i can't believe they cut the scenes out
when it was shown on channel 4 they didn't cut out any of the scenes for which i am very greatful. surely more then anything the story wouldn't make any sense
be back later
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I really liked the movie on Bravo tonight. Now I want to see it on the big screen.
Jack Fredrick Twist... welcome! I would recommend seeing the "real" film because it is slightly, almost impressatably, better than the soon to be classic Bravo version. ::)
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this is a cap from the FNIT. This shot is not on the dvd and I sure don't remember seeing it in the film.
(https://ultimatebrokebackforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi275.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fjj282%2FSanFranciscoJohn%2FFNIT3.jpg&hash=c0c7f2f52e90b99d031cbbe809e1ad268f92a9f7)
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this is a cap from the FNIT. This shot is not on the dvd and I sure don't remember seeing it in the film.
Hmmm, interesting...
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Did you ever see this shot Eric?
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I didn't see this but I think "Frederick" is a scream!!!
Does Jack Frederick Twist got it all figured out?
;D
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Like I said in Eyelashes, very strange angle!
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Ellen, I think his name got changed to Jack Friggin' Twist in that scene.
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Like I said in Eyelashes, very strange angle!
It threw me right away.
Todd noticed it too.
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Is it possible they were able to change the angle somehow? Computers or sumthin'? And why?
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Ellen, I think his name got changed to Jack Friggin' Twist in that scene.
That proves my theory-- the editors had a difficult job, and to cheer themselves up they put in "Frederick" as a joke.
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Is it possible they were able to change the angle somehow? Computers or sumthin'? And why?
I suppose there might be a way, but it looks like a real shot. And I can't imagine Ang Lee allowing a simulated shot like that.
I can't imagine why they added this one. It's not like they needed any filler.
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That proves my theory-- the editors had a difficult job, and to cheer themselves up they put in "Frederick" as a joke.
It was a pretty good joke. I laughed at it, and it takes a lot to make me laugh.
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Yeah, it's a very odd thing to see. Why edit out other stuff, and then add that shot in?
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I'm going to zip through the recording later to see if anything else is different. I didn't watch the whole movie last night, it just didn't look right.
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Movie don't look right!
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Is it possible they were able to change the angle somehow? Computers or sumthin'? And why?
I suppose there might be a way, but it looks like a real shot. And I can't imagine Ang Lee allowing a simulated shot like that.
I can't imagine why they added this one. It's not like they needed any filler.
I think it's just an alternate take than what appeared in the theatrical and dvd release - maybe they save some versions for tv release, just like they re do some of the dialogue for tv as well. I'm not complaining - I've always wanted to see all 13 takes!! 2 down, 11 to go.
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I'm going to zip through the recording later to see if anything else is different. I didn't watch the whole movie last night, it just didn't look right.
the scene in the car with lureen is different also - and looks to be before jake asked her if it would be ok to touch her boobs ;=
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If they ARE using different footage - and the FNIT shot is definitely genuine and new in my opinion - then I am seriously concerned about who gave them access to it. If it's okay to show this stuff on TV, why can't we total obsessives get it on a DVD? It may only be a shot or two but it's all gold dust to us.
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This is Jack & Lureen in the car. Again, an angle shot that I have never seen before. It's at the very end of the scene.
(https://ultimatebrokebackforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi275.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fjj282%2FSanFranciscoJohn%2FJackLureen1.jpg&hash=4b36c269fe81d75dcc044d3f4b489d020bc10d75)
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I hope you don't mind, John, but I've posted a couple of your screencaps over on the Deleted Scenes and Outtakes thread.
Last night I saw that film society screening of BBM (intact, I'm glad to say) that you notified us Aussies about a while back. Thank you so much for that.
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Thank you! Feel free to post any of my pics anywhere, anytime.
How was the screening? Any newbies?
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This scene may not look different, but it is very different in the version shown on Bravo.
The walls of the tent are moving quite a bit and you can hear a lot of huffin' and puffin'.
It looks like they may have used a computer to make the tent move.
(https://ultimatebrokebackforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi275.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fjj282%2FSanFranciscoJohn%2FTent1.jpg&hash=9704809ac917db29fe44eacd3a36d406932bc00e)
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Nobody I spoke to afterwards had seen it before. Two women complained about the mumbling ::) but loved the Queensland Blue heelers, one strident woman insisted that Jack had been bashed to death, and of course, plenty said how sad it was. No negative comments about the subject matter, I'm pleased to say. I looked around and wondered who of these newbies would wake up in the middle of the night and find they can't get it out of their head. They take a vote at the end of each screening so I'll check to see what the overall verdict was.
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I guess I haven't been paying attention the last 2 1/2 years.
What is "Queensland Blue heelers" ?
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The dogs used on the mountain. Annie Proulx said they were blue heelers which is another name for the Australian Cattle Dog. Queensland Blue Heelers is another name. I said that because that's what the woman behind me called them - loudly!
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These dogs are, by nature, wary. They are naturally cautious, and grow more so as they age. Their cautious nature towards strangers makes them perfect guard dogs, when trained for this task. Cattle Dogs drive cattle by nipping at their heels or tails, but they have also been known to herd other animals, such as ducks, chickens, humans, pigeons, and even cars without instruction when left to their own devices.
No cars on the mountain, fortunately. Cattle dogs also come in red tones.
FWIW, at Lost Cabin, where Ennis and Alma lived when Junior was born, the local big man, J. Okie, from memory, used Australian methods of sheep shearing and wool classification. I am a mine of useless information (but I'm good to have on a trivia team).
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I want to be on your Trivia Team!
I wonder whatever happened to Jimmy's board game? We had fun with that.
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I just remembered the BBM trivia questions we were tackling on the long drive back to Denver from Wyoming last year (we were trying to keep our driver, RouxB, awake :D) Things like, how many times do people spit in the film.
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I guess I haven't been paying attention the last 2 1/2 years.
What is "Queensland Blue heelers" ?
In the US they are Australian Cattle Dogs, known as Heelers and they come in red and blue. They're very poplular with horse people and many are still used for herding cattle. The Border Collie is more poplular in the US for herding sheep... the dogs with the Chileans are Border Collies. Both breeds CAN make good pets provided they have a job to do. And their natural tendency to nip (to get whatever they're herding to go in a particular direction) can make them hard on children's feet and legs.
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I recognized the border collies right away. My grandparents had one back in 1963.
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Did you ever see this shot Eric?
I don't believe I've seen this shot/angle...nor the shot/angle with Lureen and Jack in the car you've posted...
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That proves my theory-- the editors had a difficult job, and to cheer themselves up they put in "Frederick" as a joke.
It was a pretty good joke. I laughed at it, and it takes a lot to make me laugh.
Yeah, I know!!!!
But we won't give up trying...
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thanks for the new shots/angles
very intresting
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I never got a reply from GLAAD, but they did publish my letter on their website.
It's not easy to find, so here's the link:
http://glaadorg.nexcess.net/cinequeer/2008/06/30-days-of-pride-whats-on-tv-t-12.html (http://glaadorg.nexcess.net/cinequeer/2008/06/30-days-of-pride-whats-on-tv-t-12.html)
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Looks like Bravo listened. I hope they are properly chastened.
In tents: Bravo responds to the brouhaha over their editing of "Brokeback Mountain" (http://www.afterelton.com/blog/brianjuergens/in-tents-bravo-responds-brouhaha--brokeback-mountain-edit?&comment=46070)
We didn't catch the televised version ourselves but when readers tipped us off to the brouhaha, we contacted Bravo to find out what the deal was.
Here's their response:
"This was an unfortunate mistake. While editing the film for cable broadcast, the kissing scene in question was removed. The scene will appear in all future airings of Brokeback Mountain on Bravo, as it should have been included in its cable premiere."
Disingenuous at best, but here's hoping they do correct their error. Also, will they show more than the kiss? I would hope the whole scene is shown.
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Yes!!!!
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Bravo has always been my favorite cable channel!
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Will be interesting to see if the carry through on that promise.
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They'll probably never show it again, but I'm keeping an eye out just in case.
At least they admitted their "mistake"
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http://www.smh.com.au/news/arts/ledger-theatre-comes-under-fire/2008/07/02/1214950821746.html
The naming of the new performing arts centre after Hollywood star
Heath Ledger has split Perth's arts community.
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That is cool they admitted their mistake. I assumed they'd do what the Academy did when they refused to admit homophobia played any part in Brokeback's BP loss. Definitely a nice surprise although I'm also waiting to see if it actually gets shown again.
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http://www.smh.com.au/news/arts/ledger-theatre-a-fitting-tribute--dad/2008/07/01/1214950820532.html
Re; LisLis's post above: This is an article about Kim Ledger's reaction. Very good reading, and a nice pic of him.
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http://www.smh.com.au/news/arts/ledger-theatre-comes-under-fire/2008/07/02/1214950821746.html
The naming of the new performing arts centre after Hollywood star
Heath Ledger has split Perth's arts community.
http://www.smh.com.au/news/arts/ledger-theatre-a-fitting-tribute--dad/2008/07/01/1214950820532.html
Re; LisLis's post above: This is an article about Kim Ledger's reaction. Very good reading, and a nice pic of him.
I'm impressed that the WA government grabbed this chance to honour Heath; unusually quick and inspired action by bureaucrats!...that doesn't happen often, so I'm especially happy that it happened there to honour Heath's memory.
As always some small-minded people try to split hairs that he wasn't enough of a theatre actor ...and I bet some still look for scandal re. his sudden death, which probably doesn't sit well with the Perth great and good of the art world. Hypocrites, never know a good thing when they have it or even when it's gone...
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I have to disagree with that assessment of the controversy over naming a threater after HL. I don't think it is hypocritical of the dissenters to rather have the theater named after a stage actor rather than a movie actor. Seems logical to me.
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Some of my favorite theatres are named after people who weren't 'stage' actors.
The Al Hirschfeld and the John Golden theatres on Broadway, Her Majesty's and Prince of Wales Theatres in the West End of London just to name a few.
Heath Ledger started out as a stage actor. It's a shame he never got the chance to return to that, but I have a feeling that it's something he would have gotten around to eventually.
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I also understand why the more theatre-oriented types would feel a bit miffed over a hollywood glamour boy being so honoured. Personally, I think the WA govt's decision is wonderful, and Heath deserved it for everything he gave to the acting profession, one way or another, but I can see their point.
Also, Heath's impact on the acting world isn't always appreciated here in his home country. Many people still haven't got past the idea of the "good-looking kid made good" aspects of his career. It doesn't matter how many times they hear how brilliant he was, somewhere in their heads they're still thinking "Yeah, but it's just our Heath, he's not THAT good."
Why not send the Premiere, Alan Carpenter, an email and tell him what a good decision he's made.
http://www.dpc.wa.gov.au/index.cfm?event=contact
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I agree with most of the above statements that for us, honoring Heath Ledger makes perfect sense. IMO the controversy may be more rooted in what seems like a hasty decision -- like naming the theater very soon after his death, without a period of discernment to see whether his impact will be long-lasting.
To us Heath means a lot, but to many in Australia it might seem a rather hasty honor.
In the long run it will probably be more accepted.
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I agree with most of the above statements that for us, honoring Heath Ledger makes perfect sense. IMO the controversy may be more rooted in what seems like a hasty decision -- like naming the theater very soon after his death, without a period of discernment to see whether his impact will be long-lasting.
To us Heath means a lot, but to many in Australia it might seem a rather hasty honor.
In the long run it will probably be more accepted.
For this Australian, it's not a hasty honour.
As an actor, Heath seemed to disappear into his roles.
A notorious Australian phenomenon is the Tall Poppy Syndrome. Anyone who is very distinguished or famous is liable to be cut down to size eventually.
BTW, I was puzzled by the politician's comment that the name would draw people to the theatre. WTF? Who decides to go to see a theatrical performance on the basis of the name of the theatre?
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It may not actually draw people but it won't shut out a lot of people, I suspect. Here in Melbourne I always feel that I should dress up when going to the Rupert Hamer Hall or whatever. Something named after Heath sounds a bit more accessible.
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I never got a reply from GLAAD, but they did publish my letter on their website.
It's not easy to find, so here's the link:
http://glaadorg.nexcess.net/cinequeer/2008/06/30-days-of-pride-whats-on-tv-t-12.html (http://glaadorg.nexcess.net/cinequeer/2008/06/30-days-of-pride-whats-on-tv-t-12.html)
Well done, John!
The editing for Bravo cannot possibly have been just a mistake. It's a well-established pattern that homophobic mainstreamers cannot accept the idea that same-sex relationships can be truly loving in the same way as opposite-sex ones. Showing SNIT in full would utterly undermine the notion that same-sex relationships are inauthentic, immoral, perverted and one-dimensionally lust driven.
Although of course I am not in the US with access to Bravo, I never watch movies on commercial TV. I refuse to submit to the butchery of the integrity of any film by commercial breaks or the need to edit them to fit pre-determined timeslots.
I hope that there are people who watched BBM for the first time on Bravo who are inspired to go and find the real thing.
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OMG I'm so embarrased.
I misspelled 'pivotal'
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You misspelled embarrassed too :D :D :D
I'm just glad no-one walks behind me, pointing out my spelling mistakes.
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I guess I need to start using spellcheck AT MY AGE.
It's a combination of bad eyesight and laziness. I'm usually very picky about my spelling, especially at work. I would never issue a memo without running spellcheck and then having my assistant proofread it.
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http://www.hollywoodchamber.net/icons/faq.asp
A Star on the Walk of Fame for Heath Ledger?
5 years will have passed around the time of the Brokeback Mountain
Opera premiere (scheduled for 2013).
How to get a "letter of agreement" and obtain $25,000?
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I'm 100% sure this will happen.
How to raise $25,000? I don't think that would be a problem at all.
If I'm still alive I'll be there when the star get placed.
(https://ultimatebrokebackforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi275.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fjj282%2FSanFranciscoJohn%2FHL.jpg&hash=60daeb95022abdadd4958091cb51420b5345c5a0)
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Conidering the generosity on this forum, we could probably have $25000 by the end of next week.
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What needs to be done to get permission for a Walk of Fame Star
from his representative(s) so that raising the $25,000 can begin?
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What needs to be done to get permission for a Walk of Fame Star
from his representative(s) so that raising the $25,000 can begin?
Probably have to get in touch with Kim Ledger.
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I'm 100% sure this will happen.
How to raise $25,000? I don't think that would be a problem at all.
If I'm still alive I'll be there when the star get placed.
(https://ultimatebrokebackforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi275.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fjj282%2FSanFranciscoJohn%2FHL.jpg&hash=60daeb95022abdadd4958091cb51420b5345c5a0)
so true
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Christopher Nolan on Heath in the July 11th edition of Entertainment Weekly:
"The guy had serious nuts. What I needed was someone who wouldn't be afraid of the comparison with Jack Nicholson. And then I saw Heath's incredible performance in Brokeback Mountain. Such a lack of vanity. This was an actor who wasn't afraid to bury himself in his character - to a massive extent."
I find it so interesting that Nolan looked at that performance and thought to himself, "Now that's the man I need to play the Joker in my next Batman movie." That would probably have been the last role that would have popped into my head after seeing Heath play Ennis. Yet, it shows just how fine an eye for acting - and a gift for understanding actors - Nolan must have to be able to make such a leap. It's almost as impressive to me as Ang's being able to look at much of Heath's earlier work and think that the actor would fit so well in the Ennis role. I guess that's why they're making movies and I'm not. ;)
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Somewhere I read or heard that it was Heath's work in Monster's Ball that clinched it for Ang Lee. I'm embarrassed to admit that Heath didn't even register w/ me when I first saw the film. Forget I said that. Musta left my eyes and my gonads at home.
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I "saw" Heath in Monster's Ball and The Patriot but the first movie I ever remembered his NAME from was A Knight's Tale. I'm not sure the order I saw them in which doesn't depend on release dates since I see most films on dvd. And of course, he starred in Knight. Funny that, eh, from one knight to another.
As for Jake, the only movie I saw him in before Brokeback was The Day After Tomorrow, which I loved and had seen a number of times. But I didn't have a clue who he was when I heard he was in the gay cowboy movie.
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http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/showbiz/2008-07/09/content_6831416.htm
Michelle Williams is making a movie about Heath Ledger so their
two-year-old daughter can see what her dad was really like.
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http://www.charlestoncitypaper.com/gyrobase/Content?oid=oid%3A48075
Heath Ledger Tribute
July 11-17
Monster's Ball at 2:30, 9:45 p.m.
Brothers Grimm at 2:40 p.m.
Candy at 5:05 p.m.
Brokeback Mountain at 7:15 p.m.
Lords of Dogtown at 9:50 p.m.
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http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/showbiz/2008-07/09/content_6831416.htm
Michelle Williams is making a movie about Heath Ledger so their
two-year-old daughter can see what her dad was really like.
that is such a good idea and the sweetest thing ive ever heard! bless michelle
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I'd be happy to contribute to get Heath's star on the Walk of Fame, but it seems to me that his agent and agency would be happy to pay for it.
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The Dark Knight
"almost lives up to hype"
http://www.mail.com/Article.aspx?articlepath=APNews/General-Entertainment/20080712/Film-Review-The-Dark-Knight.xml&cat=entertainment&subcat=&pageid=1
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Some great postings about Heath here might be missing their target audience
Guys, there's a great thread just for Dark Knight here
http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=24144.0 (http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=24144.0)
and for all things Heath
http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=30193.0 (http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=30193.0)
http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=26371.0 (http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=26371.0)
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Ah...the good old days. I just came upon a site from early 2006 talking about how well BBM was doing at the box office in Montana, much to the chagrin of right-wing pundits like Bill O'Reilly who, of course, predicted it would never find a receptive audience in a rural area like that. I guess BBM overturned quite a lot of conventional wisdom back in the day. ;)
http://www.helenair.com/articles/2006/02/04/montana/a07020406_02.txt?rating=true
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Maggie Gyllenhaal was just on Regis and Kelly which I watched just to see her and she had some nice things to say about HL. She was emotional when talking about him, so it wasn't just run-of-the-mill studio-speak. I'm still teary eyed.
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Guess what's playing on Bravo this weekend. Will they keep their promise?
Brokeback Mountain
BRAVO Sat 7/19 8:00 PM
BRAVO Sat 7/19 11:00 PM
BRAVO Sun 7/20 8:30 AM
BRAVO Mon 7/28 8:00 AM
BRAVO Tue 7/29 1:00 AM
http://affiliate.zap2it.com/tvlistings/ZCSGrid.do?aid=twop&stnNum=10057&channel=15&channelCnt=15 (http://affiliate.zap2it.com/tvlistings/ZCSGrid.do?aid=twop&stnNum=10057&channel=15&channelCnt=15)
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Here's a duplicate post from Scene-by-Scene, "Last scene w/ Ennis and Jack together."
Although this isn't quite their last scene together, it's so close that I thought this was the best place to post it. I have no idea if anyone has commented on this.
It's their last night together in the tent. After 105 viewings, I noticed that Ennis's mouth twitches. I rewound to double-check. We're supposed to concentrate on Ennis's hand around Jack. I think my eyes always went to the hand, to their faces, and then back to the hand. Last night, though, I happened to be looking at Ennis's face at the right moment.
So I've had an evening to figure out if there was meaning to this twitch. As I've said more than once, nothing in this film happens by accident. The best I can do is: Ennis is dreaming about Jack, and he smiles. Maybe he figured out at the campfire that Jack came as close he could to telling Ennis he loved him. Maybe not, because it's been theorized that it took the shirts to get Ennis to figure it out. But what Jack said must have touched him and made him happy.
Off the subject, but I want to plug it whenever I can: http://www.buzzimage.com/en/work/making_of/33
That music is so achingly beautiful. I listen to it 5-10 times a day at work. There's a clip w/ Ennis smoking that is painful to watch.
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Off the subject, but I want to plug it whenever I can: http://www.buzzimage.com/en/work/making_of/33
That music is so achingly beautiful. I listen to it 5-10 times a day at work. There's a clip w/ Ennis smoking that is painful to watch.
I guess you know already, the music is from Shawshank Redemption Soundtrack, by Thomas Newman
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZcZniiGzpA
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A thousand thanks for confirming that. I'd asked the question previously, but in the context of the BBM trailer, and wasn't sure if the Shawshank answer was referring to the gorgeous music at the end of the trailer (and at Buzz Images), or the nice music at the beginning of the trailer. You've clinched it, and now I know what CD to buy. I'd sent Buzz Images an e-mail asking the question, but they never repiled.
I came across the Buzz Images clip shortly after Heath died. Great music to cry to.
I realized recently that I've cried more over Heath's death than anything else in my life. I have a few theories on why that is:
-- I was in love with Heath
-- I was in love with Ennis
-- In a big way Ennis is now dead, too.
An interesting near-coincidence is that after I saw BBM, for about the next 6 weeks if I thought or talked about the film for more than about 90 seconds, I started crying. But that didn't happen everyday. And when Heath died, I cried everyday for exactly 4 weeks. Those crying jags are in the same ballpark.
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Bravo kept their word. The SNIT was shown intact tonight.
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Hiya, not sure if I'm posting this in the right place and if you've heard it before but there's going to be a showing of BBM on the big screen (I think it might be a big outdoor screening) at the Film4 Festival at Somerset House, London, England on Saturday 2nd August 2008. There are still some tickets left but a little pricey.
http://independent.viagogo.co.uk/Arts-and-Theatre-Tickets/Family/Film4-Festival-at-Somerset-House-Tickets (http://independent.viagogo.co.uk/Arts-and-Theatre-Tickets/Family/Film4-Festival-at-Somerset-House-Tickets)
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Bravo kept their word. The SNIT was shown intact tonight.
Oh, cool-I think its on again tonight. I missed it last night, having gone to TDK, then dinner. I actually forgot about it later....
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Hiya, not sure if I'm posting this in the right place and if you've heard it before but there's going to be a showing of BBM on the big screen (I think it might be a big outdoor screening) at the Film4 Festival at Somerset House, London, England on Saturday 2nd August 2008. There are still some tickets left but a little pricey.
http://independent.viagogo.co.uk/Arts-and-Theatre-Tickets/Family/Film4-Festival-at-Somerset-House-Tickets (http://independent.viagogo.co.uk/Arts-and-Theatre-Tickets/Family/Film4-Festival-at-Somerset-House-Tickets)
great calendar item -- thanks
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Hiya, not sure if I'm posting this in the right place and if you've heard it before but there's going to be a showing of BBM on the big screen (I think it might be a big outdoor screening) at the Film4 Festival at Somerset House, London, England on Saturday 2nd August 2008. There are still some tickets left but a little pricey.
http://independent.viagogo.co.uk/Arts-and-Theatre-Tickets/Family/Film4-Festival-at-Somerset-House-Tickets (http://independent.viagogo.co.uk/Arts-and-Theatre-Tickets/Family/Film4-Festival-at-Somerset-House-Tickets)
Thanks Sheba! I'm going to check if there are any tickets left.
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I'm combining a couple of posts I just made on two other threads.
First, in the Dozy Embrace, I've always thought Jack and Ennis had had sex after dinner. That fit well w/ Jack's expression, both as Ennis embraces him and as Ennis rides away. The connection I made was between the sexual afterglow and the glow of the campfire, which I think was down to its embers.
Second, when Ennis is reading Jack's reunion postcard, his lips move as he reads what Jack wrote. I like to think that was Heath's idea. For the past 2.5 years, I must have been looking at Ennis's eyes.
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Yeah! But I've been looking at his lips! :D
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I hope that there are people who watched BBM for the first time on Bravo who are inspired to go and find the real thing.
I didn't actually get to watch the whole film when it premiered on Bravo. Thought I had missed out on being part of history again with this film when I didn't get to see all of it that night, but I guess I got lucky and dodged the bullet of mediocrity on this one. It was tuning in at the moment of the reunion kiss one or two days later on BRAVO that not only inspired but propelled me to buy the DVD. I guess I had seen all I was meant to see on BRAVO, thank goodness.
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I just came across this review of the film from Dec. '05 which I thought I'd share. It has some wonderful things to say not just about the movie itself but about Heath's amazing performance.
http://www.filmjerk.com/reviews/article.php?id_rev=722
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Great review, Roland! Thanks for the link.
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Can I second that. A super and perceptive review. Thank you for posting the link.
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There is an interesting profile of Gustavo Santaolalla and his work by Larry Rohter in today's New York Times. At one point the article says that he is innovative in the way he works because he likes to write the music before the film is shot. Then comes the following paragraphs.
Ang Lee, the director of “Brokeback Mountain,” said he had never worked that way until meeting Mr. Santaolalla, but found the process to be “very organic.” He told Mr. Santaolalla he was seeking a sound that was “sparse and yearning,” sent him a script, and two weeks later received a CD, which, he said, he initially thought contained samples of Mr. Santaolalla’s previous work. Instead, it turned out to be new compositions intended for “Brokeback Mountain.”
“Usually you don’t talk about the music until after the first cut,” Mr. Lee said, “but with Gustavo, I had music for seven scenes while we were still in preproduction, in fact before we had even scouted for locations. That was a luxury that helped inspire me to visualize the film and find its heart. And when the major actors were rehearsing I shared the music with them, to set a tone for what we were doing.”
Here is the link to the entire article:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/15/arts/music/15gus.html?_r=1&ref=music&oref=slogin
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I find Gustavo's scope incredible... from his haunting guitar themes to the country western tunes. Amazing versitility.
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Here's a great review of the film by someone who says he didn't think much of Heath as an actor until he saw BBM (he now goes by the name heathledgerfan,so I guess he was really impressed). But it is the responses to the article that are most of interest, since several of the writers state they never saw the movie until after Heath's death and were totally blown away by both the film and his performance.
http://heathandrewledger.com/?p=30&cp=1#comments
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New job anyone?
Apparently MI5 are looking to recruit gay people as spies..............
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article4547867.ece (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article4547867.ece)
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Here's a great review of the film by someone who says he didn't think much of Heath as an actor until he saw BBM (he now goes by the name heathledgerfan,so I guess he was really impressed). But it is the responses to the article that are most of interest, since several of the writers state they never saw the movie until after Heath's death and were totally blown away by both the film and his performance.
http://heathandrewledger.com/?p=30&cp=1#comments
Seems there are a lot of folk like that. It's one of the few good things to come out of his death. I guess we have to make the most of them. There have certainly been quite a few new members here because of it. Heath would have appreciated having it as part of his legacy. He was so proud (and humble) about being able to play a part in opening people's minds. Lovely man.
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New job anyone?
Apparently MI5 are looking to recruit gay people as spies..............
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article4547867.ece (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article4547867.ece)
I really liked that movie, about Guy Burgess; what was it called, 'The Eight Man' or something like that? Interesting stuff. 'Vulnerable to blackmail'-no kidding.
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Apparently MI5 are looking to recruit gay people as spies..............
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article4547867.ece (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article4547867.ece)
The best comment on that article was: "The service has always been run by the public school educated, so there should be little change."
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I'd like to send Ang Lee a fan letter complimenting him on one of his movies. Does anyone have an address, maybe his agent's?
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I've read somewhere on the forum recently, can't remember where, that some people have the short story on their computers. That would be good - could anyone tell me how to do that please?
And another thing - I've also seen somewhere, possibly FNIT or SNIT but posted quite a long time ago, a link to a site with hundreds of screenshots from the film. I know it still worked, but I didn't make a note of it - any ideas?
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It used to available on the New Yorker site, but they have taken it down now, I don't know if it is avaiable anywhere else. As it is I have two copies of the book one upstairs and one downstairs, so I always have it to hand..................
There are lots of screenshots here: http://www.iheartjakemedia.com/ (http://www.iheartjakemedia.com/) and the rest of the scenery isn't bad either. :D
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Thanks, Janjo. I've registered and the pictures are great. :D
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http://www.stripedwall.com/gallery.php?page=movies/Brokeback
This site is probably what you are after, Cally.
Try this one for a Word doc of BBM
bloggingknight.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/brokeback-mountain.doc
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Cally, this is the one I use for screen shots:
http://web.mac.com/sic3/bbm/f/galeria.htm
And I have a copy of the short story on my website... copied from The New Yorker site a couple years ago...
(http://whoodlesanddoodles.com)
the link to it is on the left side of my homepage, at the bottom of "Articles."
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Many thanks for all those - I found them all except the blogging knight one - got the website but not the document. But anyway got the story from yours, Doodler (loved the puppies :))
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I just posted this on the Symbolism and Imagery thread:
While Jack and Ennis are saying goodbye at Jack's truck in Signal, Ennis is squinting during the entire scene.
It could mean any of several things:
-- he doesn't want to see how hurt Jack is
-- he doesn't want to see Jack for what Jack is
-- he doesn't want to see Jack because he would see part of himself in Jack
Of course, I'm pretty sure the sun is in Ennis's eyes, but it isn't by accident.
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yeah the suns in his eyes, but i always thought he was trying not to cry and not wanting jack to see how upset and hurt he is
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I hadn't thought of that.
It fits well w/ what happens to Ennis in the alley.
The next time I watch it, I'll check for how much time each spends looking at the other versus the ground. My memory is that Jack stares at Ennis a lot.
Many moons ago, I posted about the recurrence of Jack saying "all right" when he's not getting what he wants. At the end of this scene, he says "Right," and I think "All right" would have worked and would have helped my theory. It's all about me, I guess.
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The Synbolism and Imagery thread seems to have disappeared. Does anybody know what happened?
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The Synbolism and Imagery thread seems to have disappeared. Does anybody know what happened?
Good question. I have no idea.
The thread is still here, but I don't see it listed.
very strange.
http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=9675 (http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=9675)
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Ok I think I fixed it. It's showing up now.
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yeah the suns in his eyes, but i always thought he was trying not to cry and not wanting jack to see how upset and hurt he is
It's a detail out of the SS.
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What a beautiful tribute to Heath and his BBM legacy:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/tom-gregory/heath-ledger-two-shirts-_b_82971.html
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^^^^^^^^^^
That was really beautiful.....
Thx for posting it.
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Heath's death is similar to the death of a child.
Nobody plans to bury a child. You sign up to bury your parents and you know you have a 40-60% chance of burying your spouse or partner. But the risk of one of your kids dying before you do is very small.
And so it is with a 28-year-old actor, almost 30 years younger than I am.
Also, you never get over it. Seven months after Heath died, that's what it feels like. I predict it won't feel like that forever, but except for the fact that I hardly cry at all now, it seems just as awful today as it did when it happened.
And, based on my reaction to his death, I guess I was in love with him (or Ennis). Though part of the reaction is that Ennis is now dead. This part gets complicated
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Heath's death is similar to the death of a child.
Nobody plans to bury a child. You sign up to bury your parents and you know you have a 40-60% chance of burying your spouse or partner. But the risk of one of your kids dying before you do is very small.
And so it is with a 28-year-old actor, almost 30 years younger than I am.
Also, you never get over it. Seven months after Heath died, that's what it feels like. I predict it won't feel like that forever, but except for the fact that I hardly cry at all now, it seems just as awful today as it did when it happened.
And, based on my reaction to his death, I guess I was in love with him (or Ennis). Though part of the reaction is that Ennis is now dead. This part gets complicated
You know, Marc, before I had seen BBM I would have thought that something was wrong with you or that you needed to get a life, because I had never really understood or accepted how some could get emotionally attached to someone they've never met or even know--in the case of actors--a mirage. After seeing BBM, however, (which I saw after TDK), I completely understand what you mean. Perhaps it is for this reason (Heath's unexpected and shocking death) that I am as affected by BBM as I am today. Heath embodied Ennis so much that by the end, I am not just gireving for Ennis's loss of Jack, but also for OUR loss of Heath, and in some ways, our desire to perpetuate Ennis as a character, who I would have been thrilled to have Heath reflect on years from now.
So Marc, I understand and hope that there comes a time in the near future when the pain won't still be so raw.
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If I hadn't experienced Brokeback, I wouldn't have believed it could happen. My usual speech -- and I've posted it before -- is this:
For the first month or so after I saw the movie, if I thought or talked about it for more than 90 seconds, I'd start crying. And that happened at work, in friends' kitchens, going to sleep, and walking on the sidewalk. It wasn't everyday, but it could have been.
After Heath died, I cried everyday for 4 weeks. His death affected me more than anybody else's, ever.
Who would have believed such a thing was possible?
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If I hadn't experienced Brokeback, I wouldn't have believed it could happen. My usual speech -- and I've posted it before -- is this:
For the first month or so after I saw the movie, if I thought or talked about it for more than 90 seconds, I'd start crying. And that happened at work, in friends' kitchens, going to sleep, and walking on the sidewalk. It wasn't everyday, but it could have been.
After Heath died, I cried everyday for 4 weeks. His death affected me more than anybody else's, ever.
Who would have believed such a thing was possible?
I didn't think such a thing was possible either, but after I saw the film, I became so...involved with the actors--and Heath in particular--that I shocked myself and friends. I saw BBM back to back the first time I saw it (on DVD), finished @ 4:30+ am, cried each time like I'd NEVER cried before just by watching a film (the ugly, can't breathe kind of cry) and became obsessed with it (still am as I religiously read these boards). Since I kinda understand why I reacted as I did to this film, and am really interested in knowing why others reacted as they did, what about it got to you so much, Marc? (And anyone else who wishes to answer). Are you affected in the same way today as you had when you first saw it?
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Despite the thousands of words I've written on the book and film discussion threads, analysing every last aspect, whenever I watch the film it hits me in the same way it did that first time (although without the shock, of course, since I know what's going to happen). I cry at the same scenes (and sometimes at others) and I still wind up a helpless sobbing mass. Sometimes it's not as bad as other times but the emotional reaction is always the same.
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I choke up on probably 95% of my viewings.
It always starts when Ennis breaks down on their last trip. "I just can't stand this anymore, Jack." And he grabs Jack's jacket like he'll never let go. Another nice touch.
And in the DE, I can feel Ennis's arms around me, and -- guess what -- Jack doesn't want him to ever let go. (I just made that connection. Perhaps I'm not the first. How can a movie do so many things so well?)
I have no clear memory of choking up on "Sometimes I miss you so much ... " but it would be a natural moment for it.
The phone call doesn't affect me much these days. It clobbered me early in my BBM career. Maybe the emotion has been leavened by noticing that they dressed Lureen up to match the lamp. It's a great joke.
And of course the shirts in Jack's closet and then in Ennis's.
And when the closet door closes, and we look out the window and it fades to black, I always think "One of the best movies ever made."
I'll be on vacation the next two weeks, and I'll really miss this place.
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Take care, Marc. We'll miss you.
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The Dark Knight over $500 million but not expected to catch Titanic
http://www.mail.com/Article.aspx?articlepath=APNews\General-Entertainment\20080831\Film-Dark-Knight.xml&cat=entertainment&subcat=&pageid=1
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why its a much better film then titanic
titanic was crap
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AFTER ELTON just polled its readers on the 50 best gay movies of all times. guess which was number 1, by a two to one margin.
yup, BBM. here is their review, more of an epilogue, really. i choked up reading it.
. Brokeback Mountain (2005)
Ferragamos or Birkenstocks? Mojitos or good ol’ beer? Gay men don’t seem to agree on much. But by a wide margin of nearly two-to-one, you chose Brokeback Mountain as the greatest gay movie of all time. And how could it be otherwise? “It’s not ‘gay,’” said some, trying to broaden the film’s appeal, “it’s a ‘universal love story’!”
But is it really? Plenty of heterosexuals have had the experience of hiding a love affair, but how many of them know what it’s like to be forced by society to deny themselves the very possibility of love? This is the daring and fundamentally “gay” question at the heart of Ang Lee’s 2005 masterpiece: can two men simply allow themselves to love each other? And though the movie is set in the past, it is, ultimately, the very choice that every gay man still must make.
Jake Gyllenhaal is flawless as Jack Twist in arguably the movie’s most difficult role. But Heath Ledger’s heartbreaking portrayal of Ennis Del Mar, a walking cautionary tale of homophobia’s logical end result, is a revelation — a total acting transformation made all the more tragic by Ledger’s death earlier this year. But the indignities and injustices that Jack and Ennis faced did not end at Brokeback Mountain’s closing credits. Upon the film’s release, the movie’s makers and fans were subjected to a six-month orgy of tasteless jokes from clueless comedians and bile-filed commentary from right-wing pundits. All of this negativity culminated when the movie, long considered the Oscar front-runner, lost Best Picture to a fine but unremarkable movie called Crash, perhaps the most egregious upset in Oscar history and almost certainly the result of lingering homophobia in Hollywood’s old guard.
But that fusillade of ridicule and outrage is already fading into the gloom of a bigoted past while the movie’s artistry and quiet power shines brighter than ever. Let’s face it: this isn’t just the greatest gay movie of all time, it’s one of the greatest movies ever.
the entire article and list may be found here...
http://www.afterelton.com/movies/2008/9/50greatestgaymovies
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I just posted this on S&I:
Has anyone commented on why "Signal" is the name of the fictitious town?
We get a signal from Jack staring at Ennis after he parks the truck, and signals from both of them in the trailer. I never saw much between them in the bar, though.
As I've said more than twice, nothing in this movie happens by accident.
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The fictional town of Signal comes from the short story so it predates the film. Annie Proux may have chosen the name based on a famous lookout point called Signal Mountain above Jackson Hole. Although not much of a mountain (800 feet) on the top are panoramic views of the Tetons, Jackson Lake, the Snake River and the long valley below according to the Moon Handbook of Wyoming by Don Pitcher.
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Signal is based on the small town of Ten Sleep in the Bighorns, the nearest town to Brokenback Mountain. AP was asked by the Nature Conservancy to write something inspired by a visit to a Nature Conservancy preserve. She settled on the Ten Sleep Preserve and the landscape is described in most of the stories in the Close Range collection (of which BBM is the final story).
The name Signal most likely comes from the butte which dominates the western end of the town, Signal Butte, but its symbolic use in the story is much more than that. It signals the beginning and end of Jack and Ennis's physical relationship.
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Tell you what... I know where Ten Sleep is.
(https://ultimatebrokebackforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.baycityforums.com%2Fsignal%2Flibrary.jpg&hash=322ce21bafc8ddbb802d3dd35eef9a27d540c14b)
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(https://ultimatebrokebackforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.baycityforums.com%2Fsignal%2Ftruck-1.jpg&hash=a76ec6acabd1220c6e221df91813c22725dbd130)
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The view from the top of Brokenback Mountain
(https://ultimatebrokebackforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.baycityforums.com%2Fimages%2FBighorn%2Fbh12.jpg&hash=45fb5f198a83b4734759af3eb7bf7d8476c2a0c2)
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Tell you what... I know where Ten Sleep is.
(https://ultimatebrokebackforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.baycityforums.com%2Fsignal%2Flibrary.jpg&hash=322ce21bafc8ddbb802d3dd35eef9a27d540c14b)
Awww, look at that. Two of my favourite men in one photo. Bargain!
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(https://ultimatebrokebackforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.baycityforums.com%2Fsignal%2Flibrary.jpg&hash=322ce21bafc8ddbb802d3dd35eef9a27d540c14b)
Is there a copy of Close Range in Ten Sleep library?
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Is there a copy of Close Range in Ten Sleep library?
I don't know. We only stopped there to use their computers to check email and stuff.
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From Annie Proulx's interview with Matthew Testa of Planet Jackson Hole, December 7, 2005
PJH: It seems there could be no other name for this story than "Brokeback Mountain" -- it conjures a remote, sublimely beautiful place, but it's also an ominous name suggestive of physical harm and disfigurement. Is it real? How did you find the name?
AP: Brokeback is not a real place. There is, on a map I once saw, a Break Back Mountain in Wyoming which I have never seeen, but the name worked on several levels and replaced a half a dozen more pedestrian names I had been trying out.
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According to their catalogue, Ten Sleep Branch Library has copies of Close Range, Brokeback Mountain (which I assume is Close Range republished), that Old Ace In The Hole (which she wrote while "old Ennis" was still rattling around in her brain), Accordian Crimes, Bad Dirt and The Shipping News.
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But they don't have "Beyond Brokeback: The Impact of a Film" :o
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I only searched on "Proulx" so I didn't notice. Perhaps we should send them one.
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i dunno weather this is the right place to post but
BrokeBack is on Tonight on Film 4 at 9pm for any in the UK
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Too late for me, Marz! Hadn't noticed it was on and was away for the weekend - husband kindly told me that he hadn't recorded it (but it would have had infuriating commercials. Last time it was on BBC2 I think, so no ads. That was what got me hooked, about 3 months ago :)). Interesting review by Barry Norman in the Radio Times. He gave it 5 stars and quite a sensitive write-up, but a couple of inaccuracies: about Earl and Rich, 'Two gay men...were murdered', and later, 'Such subterfuge (the fishing trips) cannot last - discovery is inevitable and Ledger's (sic) life is ruined.' Not quite how I see it. But overall very positive, and saying what a loss Heath's death is.
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When Ennis gets the first postcard, Alma asks "Is he someone you cowboyed with, or what?" It's nice that she said "cowboyed" instead of "worked" with or something similar.
Because as Jack first ropes Ennis he says, "Time to get goin', cowboy." And Cassie says "Yer stayin' on yer feet, cowboy." I think the rodeo announcer uses the word once or twice.
To Alma Ennis responds, "No, he rodeos mostly." L.D. refers to Jack as "Rodeo" twice, when he tosses him the keys and when he takes the carving knife away. Another nice choice of words. There's a lack of parallelism because "Rodeo" is not used affectionately, but so be it.
So we have their nicknames also being used as verbs. Such a nice touch.
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For the last couple of days, the trailer on the BBM webisite doesn't play. Has anybody else had that problem?
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Can you post the web address you are trying to access please ;)
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It's the movie's website: http://www.brokebackmountain.com/splash.html
And still not working this morning. You click on "watch the trailer," and the trailer window pops up but you don't get the usual rising percentage as it downloads the file. It shows 100% immediately, but then nothing else happens, even if you click the Play button.
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There is a fault on this site, you may wish to contact the owners and ask them to rectify it.
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I'm not sure who the owners are, and I couldn't find a "Contact us" button. Maybe it's owned by Universal. Maybe I'll go to their website and send them a note, even though I despise them for the DVDs. My problem is, I never got a copy of the trailer, and so I'm at their mercy if I want to see it. Perhaps a Forum member has a wav file.
I noticed in the Gallery that the image of Jack's postcard has "you're" instead of "your." More typical crap from Universal.
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So we have their nicknames also being used as verbs. Such a nice touch.
It is actually the other way around. "To rodeo" and "to cowboy' have meaning just as "to walk" and "to drink" have meaning. And Ennis' comment about his dad thinking "all rodeo cowboys are fuck ups" is pretty much the established rule of thought on the matter. There's a world of difference between rodeoing and cowboying. Sort of like "I'm not a doctor but I play one on tv."
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^^^
well, this is not cut and dried. I agree with your point about the difference, between the two, but I don't really think either word is a verb, but yes they are used as verbs.
I don't think we are supposed to be allowed to turn any old noun into a verb-- but we do it all the time
"pencil" something into our calendars for example --
I'm only saying, "to cowboy" or "to rodeo" probably don't have the same verb pedigree as "to drink" or "to eat."
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^^^
well, this is not cut and dried. I agree with your point about the difference, between the two, but I don't really think either word is a verb, but yes they are used as verbs.
I don't think we are supposed to be allowed to turn any old noun into a verb-- but we do it all the time
"pencil" something into our calendars for example --
I'm only saying, "to cowboy" or "to rodeo" probably don't have the same verb pedigree as "to drink" or "to eat."
We say "to dog," "to nag", "to carp," "to harp," "to blog," "to surf," "to ace," "to act," "to..." What's the difference? Without the to, they're all nouns. To pencil something in means to write... what does to rodeo or to cowboy ACTUALLY mean except for what they say?
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We sometimes turn nouns into verbs. "pencil" is one -- to "blog" is another.
Marc's original point was that he found it endearing that they turned "cowboy" and "rodeo" into verbs in the movie, and these were also names used for the characters. I understand what he means, although I wasn't moved to comment.
but I don't know what you meant by saying "It's the other way around" which seems to mean you think somebody turned the verbs "to rodeo" and/or "to cowboy" into nouns.
No -- :P :D -- I think it's the other way around -- somebody turned the nouns into verbs.
I think your point is that if a person rodeos (v.) he is playing cowboy. I disagree with that, he has to have some good skills to rodeo.
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What timing. Tonight is the second meeting of my "Fundamentals of linguistics for ESL teachers" class. To the extent that I plan my future -- which I don't do often -- I plan on retiring from City govt in 3 years and then trying to teach ESL in another country, maybe eastern Europe.
One of the things that have come up is how easy it is in English to turn a noun into a verb. The textbook uses the example "to BART," which means to take a Bay Area Rapid Transit train someplace. The textbook's example was that someone had said a destination was "BARTable."
I told the teacher last week that a colleague had used the term 15 years ago. I asked how he's gotten somewhere, and he said "I BARTed." And I said, "Did you apologize after you BARTed?"
So turning nouns into verbs before the dictionary does may seem to play fast and loose with the language, but that's what happens. I used to get annoyed with folks who don't speak English near as good as I do, but I'm mellowing as I age.
I'd never heard cowboy or rodeo used as a verb before BBM.
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When Ennis gets the first postcard, Alma asks "Is he someone you cowboyed with, or what?" It's nice that she said "cowboyed" instead of "worked" with or something similar.
Because as Jack first ropes Ennis he says, "Time to get goin', cowboy." And Cassie says "Yer stayin' on yer feet, cowboy." I think the rodeo announcer uses the word once or twice.
To Alma Ennis responds, "No, he rodeos mostly." L.D. refers to Jack as "Rodeo" twice, when he tosses him the keys and when he takes the carving knife away. Another nice choice of words. There's a lack of parallelism because "Rodeo" is not used affectionately, but so be it.
So we have their nicknames also being used as verbs. Such a nice touch.
Reminds me of people saying that they 'lawyered' for a few years. Some words perhaps lend themselves to being used as verbs, for ease.
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I understand where doodler is coming from on this one. I think he was correcting Marc's idea that verbs were derived in their dialogue from their nicknames for each other. Doodler says that it would be the other way round i.e. the verbs were already there (as well as the nouns of course, which would come even before the verbs) - in general spoken English, and the nicknames happened later.
Doodler, I hope I haven't misrepresented your words, correct me if I'm wrong.
Let's not forget adjectives too, like in rodeo rider, cowboy hat etc (nouns acting as adjectives to be precise).
So we have the noun rodeo (an event), verb (to rodeo) and adjective (rodeo fuckup) as possible sources for the nickname for Jack. I'd say that the noun rodeo should be the most likely source.
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and I object to seeing someone emphatically "correct" something that doesn't need correction.
:)
eta: it's the way the point was made, not the point itself.
Back to the general discussion of BBM. thanks all
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I understand where doodler is coming from on this one. I think he was correcting Marc's idea that verbs were derived in their dialogue from their nicknames for each other. Doodler says that it would be the other way round i.e. the verbs were already there (as well as the nouns of course, which would come even before the verbs) - in general spoken English, and the nicknames happened later.
Doodler, I hope I haven't misrepresented your words, correct me if I'm wrong.
Let's not forget adjectives too, like in rodeo rider, cowboy hat etc (nouns acting as adjectives to be precise).
So we have the noun rodeo (an event), verb (to rodeo) and adjective (rodeo fuckup) as possible sources for the nickname for Jack. I'd say that the noun rodeo should be the most likely source.
You are exactly right.
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Any prospects for a BBM calendar for 2009?
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...I noticed in the Gallery that the image of Jack's postcard has "you're" instead of "your." More typical crap from Universal.
Actually, that's not from Universal but from A. Proulx and the text. I think it was done on purpose and is true to the characters. They were not quite educated, so thinking to use the contraction you're and not the possesive your would not have come to mind. As an English teacher, I can tell you that most "educated" people--or at least high schoolers--don't know the difference or care to make use of the correct word either. If you also note on the postcard, there are other grammatical issues going on as well, which I believe was purposeful on the part of the author.
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But the postcard on the site has 'you're' rather than 'your'. So it's not from Annie Proulx. I agree that the mispelling was purposeful. I don't see the point in changing it.
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I meant that Universal -- or whoever is in charge of the site -- didn't use the shot of the postcard from the movie. It seemed sloppy.
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In a scene that was shot but not in the film, Jack tries to give Ennis a nifty rifle on their third trip to the mountain. Ennis declines, I think saying it would look funny taking an expensive present from Jack. I like to think Jack was able to give him the rifle after the divorce.
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In a current Advocate review of the new ("Harry Potter") production of Equus, Don Shewey writes of seeing the original broadway version. That cast included Roberta Maxwell; in an aside he describes her as "...the superb Canadian lesbian actress who played Jack Twist's mother in Brokeback Mountain." News to me; pleasant to think about.
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I checked IMDB, and there's no bio at all for Roberta Maxwell. Only her date of birth.
And if that doesn't give away that she's a lesbian, I don't know what would.
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from wikipedia
Roberta Maxwell (born c. 1942) is a Canadian actress.
She began studying for the stage at the age of 12. She joined John Clark for 2 years as the kid co-host of his Junior Magazine series for CBC Television, before becoming the youngest actress apprentice at the Stratford Shakespeare Festival in Stratford, Ontario, ready to pursue an acting career, as she explains in a 1958 interview. There, she appeared as Ursula in Much Ado About Nothing, Lady Anne in Richard III, Olivia in Twelfth Night, and Anne in The Merry Wives of Windsor, before going on to England, where she spent 3 years in repertory and made her West End debut with Robert Morley and Molly Picon in A Majority of One.
She debuted on Broadway in The Prime of Miss Jean Brodie in 1968, going on to 5 more plays with the Tyrone Guthrie Theatre in Minneapolis. In 1974 she was back on Broadway playing the role of Jill in Equus, which starred Anthony Hopkins. Those, and many more plays, took her on to a successful television and film career.
Her last appearance was in the 2005 film Brokeback Mountain.
it doesn't say anything about her personal life just her year of birth, which seems to be a bit of a guess if the c is there (that means around that time doesn't it?)
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They never took any pictures of each other. How sad.
Let's hope Ennis asked Jack's mother for one.
I'll copy this to the Relationship thread.
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Brokeback Mountain Opera News
http://broadwayworld.com/article/Brokeback_Mountain_and_Disney_Opera_Shelved_After_Mortiers_Departure_20010101
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Did anybody else notice that Brokeback Mountain was NOT on Entertainment Weekly's list of the Top 50 sexiest films - even though at least 10 involved same-sex attraction? Shocking.
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^^^^^^^^^^
Hmmm.......sexy..??
I never regarded bbm as a sexy film......
Emotional, sad, haunting, life altering, tragic, moving, magic, beautiful, eye opening, serious, and a lot more.......but sexy??
Not in my book anyway.....
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Does anyone know where I can find a specific pic from BBM? I don't know how to send it on here. The pic that I have is flawed.
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Hi Larry. Try http://www.stripedwall.com/gallery.php?page=movies/Brokeback
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^^^^^^^^^^
Hmmm.......sexy..??
I never regarded bbm as a sexy film......
Emotional, sad, haunting, life altering, tragic, moving, magic, beautiful, eye opening, serious, and a lot more.......but sexy??
Not in my book anyway.....
Agreed. I've never thought of it as sexy.
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You've got to be kidding me...the opening scene with Jack and Ennis making only furtive eye contact when they first meet each other, Ennis looking longingly at Jack as he rides away from camp, the reunion scene with all that pent-up passion suddenly being unleashed after all those years, the touching scene in the hotel room, Jack rubbing Ennis' ear by the campfire. Damn, if all that doesn't qualify as sexy, i don't know what does!
By the way, here's the list of the Top 25.
http://www.ew.com/ew/gallery/0,,20241796,00.html
Actually, I guess I shouldn't really be all that surprised by its omission, since BBM missed out on their Most Controversial Movies list a few years back as well.
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What Roland said ^^^
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Hmmm.......sexy..??
I never regarded bbm as a sexy film......
Emotional, sad, haunting, life altering, tragic, moving, magic, beautiful, eye opening, serious, and a lot more.......but sexy??
Not in my book anyway.....
Sason, what do you actually mean by sexy or not sexy? Do you mean in the effect that the film has on you, or in what it's setting out to do or be?
I'd certainly go along with what Roland says.
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Hmmm........this seems to be more complicated than I first thought.....
All those examples from the film you gave Roland; I love them, but I never thought of them as sexy.......more like profoundly emotional and deeply touching......
As for sexy, Cally, I haven't really thought a lot about what I mean......but I think what I meant was that the film doesn't turn me on sexually. I turns my heart on, not my genitals.....
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Hmmm........this seems to be more complicated than I first thought.....
All those examples from the film you gave Roland; I love them, but I never thought of them as sexy.......more like profoundly emotional and deeply touching......
As for sexy, Cally, I haven't really thought a lot about what I mean......but I think what I meant was that the film doesn't turn me on sexually. I turns my heart on, not my genitals.....
Really? :o It's both with me!
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Yes, really.....
Now, as for slash, that's quite a different matter..... ;)
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Turning the calendar page to December was painful, what with the terrific picture of Ennis. One of life's ironies. It's a real gift because it wasn't in the movie.
I haven't heard that there will be a BBM calendar for next year, so I guess there won't be. The concept of "moving on" occurred to me:
-- Ennis moves on from Jack
-- we move on from Heath
-- we move on to different calendars, though I would have happily bought BBM calendars for the rest of my life
-- and in a way, we move on from the film, as it recedes and as we run out of things to say about it. I predict that, someday, this website will be history.
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......and as we run out of things to say about it.
Well, I post on a The Godfather board...... ;) ;D
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......and as we run out of things to say about it.
God forbid....!!!!
Well, I post on a The Godfather board...... ;) ;D
That's a relief to hear..... ;) :D
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Turning the calendar page to December was painful, what with the terrific picture of Ennis. One of life's ironies. It's a real gift because it wasn't in the movie.
I haven't heard that there will be a BBM calendar for next year, so I guess there won't be. The concept of "moving on" occurred to me:
-- Ennis moves on from Jack
-- we move on from Heath
-- we move on to different calendars, though I would have happily bought BBM calendars for the rest of my life
-- and in a way, we move on from the film, as it recedes and as we run out of things to say about it. I predict that, someday, this website will be history.
Ennis never moves on from Jack. He lives out the rest of his life warmed by those dreams and rocked by that wind. Jack is with him eternally. No-one else takes his place.
Heathens haven't moved on from Heath and many/most will probably wind up like Elvis or James Dean or Marilyn fans, devoted unto death :)
Run out of things to say about BBM? But I've barely begun :D :D
Moving on isn't the same as leaving behind.
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“Like two skins, one inside the other”: Dual Unity in Brokeback Mountain
David Willbern
In an interview, Annie Proulx revealed that the impulse for her now-famous story, “Brokeback Mountain,” came from her observation of a middle-aged cowboy in a Wyoming bar, nursing his beer in solitude while gazing at the handsome younger men around him. In another conversation she remarked how especially difficult it was to get inside these particular characters; how the story haunted her for months as she tried to get it right. The question of a writer's uncanny imaginative habitation of characters is in this case intensified by the distances between a New England woman in her seventies and the young, male westerners she invented.
Inventing characters is of course a main work of writers, but I suggest that the sources for Proulx's literary figures emerged not merely from her empathic social observations, and not merely from her personal preference for male characters. Underlying the fictional relationship of two sexually confused, adolescent men is another scene, anchored in our primary emotional life, and perhaps especially available to Annie Proulx as a woman, and mother. In this brief essay I'll examine the story and the film in terms of literary and cinematic texture, and from the perspective of object-relations psychoanalysis.
I want to consider the two shirts, enfolded or embraced within each other, as models of what Mahler termed “the symbiotic phase” of the maternal dyad, or dual unity, and of what Winnicott called the “transitional object.”
Re-creating and reversing the scene of their standing embrace, when Ennis held Jack from behind, here Jack's shirt envelops Ennis's. The pairing materially produces a intimate symbol: “two skins, … two in one.”  The shirts thus re-enact or re-present a primal bond: the pleasurable and nurturing symbiosis (in Mahler's terms) of mother and child, or as Proulx writes, “the silent embrace satisfying some shared and sexless hunger.”  From another perspective, as an object hanging on a nail in Ennis's trailer, the shirts become a condensed emblem: a refined aesthetic model of a transitional object (in Winnicott's terms) that represents and re-animates in memory and dream his lost relationship with Jack -- and another relationship before that (it is Ennis who recalls his mother during the standing embrace).  “The shadow of their bodies a single column against the rock,” as Proulx describes it. This vivid figure evokes another famous Freudian phrase, appropriately from “Mourning and Melancholia,” connoting psychic development from symbiosis to individuation: “The shadow of the object has fallen on the ego.”14 Torn, dirty, bloodied, the worn fabric holds the crucial past: a link to lost experience, like a child's favorite blanket— a primary con-text. This is I think the deepest texture of unconscious experience in Brokeback Mountain, which is why so many of Proulx's metaphors involve bodily images, smells, noises, warmth and coldness—signs of preverbal life. Perhaps the extraordinary popularity of the story and the film is anchored in this matrix of pre-oedipal, preverbal, universal human experience -- beyond sexuality, straight or gay, and beyond judgment.
http://www.clas.ufl.edu/ipsa/journal/2008_willbern01.shtml (http://www.clas.ufl.edu/ipsa/journal/2008_willbern01.shtml)
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That's an really interesting take - thanks for sharing. I notice that in the reference notes he says that these particular theories (Mahler, Klein, etc.) are no longer so popular but that he thinks they are relevant to the story. Sometimes it does feel to me as if the story is embedded in its time and the thinking of the time, rather than being presented as a modern day view. For instance he also points out this, about Jack's parents:
This family dynamic of distant, angry father and protective, submissive mother neatly sketches or caricatures a textbook case of filial homosexual production as theorized by many psychoanalysts in the 1960s and 70s.
(And circumcision, something his parents did to him, becomes a sort of symbol of Jack's sexuality).
I also like this, on BBM being advertised as a "universal love story":
In this view the story is about two people in love -- truly, deeply -- who through no fault of their own come to grief, in a modern version of the saga of Romeo and Juliet. Although a popular view, it doesn't hold up well under close examination. In fact it's a denial of major themes of both story and film, which are the dangerous -- indeed lethal -- effects of social homophobia, and the devastating psychological effects of self-contempt in a person who represses core parts of his sexual identity.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audio_description
Audio interpretations of BBM movie:
The UK DVD has "English Descriptive Audio"
Do any other video releases of BBM have Descriptive Audio
(the USA video releases don't)?
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Thank you so much John for the quotes and the link!
I find that most interesting.
Torn, dirty, bloodied, the worn fabric holds the crucial past: a link to lost experience, like a child's favorite blanket— a primary con-text. This is I think the deepest texture of unconscious experience in Brokeback Mountain, which is why so many of Proulx's metaphors involve bodily images, smells, noises, warmth and coldness—signs of preverbal life. Perhaps the extraordinary popularity of the story and the film is anchored in this matrix of pre-oedipal, preverbal, universal human experience -- beyond sexuality, straight or gay, and beyond judgment
I've been constantly wondering about the film's enormous impact, not only on gay men which I find quite understandable, but also on myself and other straight women. I've been having a feeling there must be something beyond the obvious theme of closeted homosexuality and internal homophobia (without deminishing these strong themes in any way!). But if that was all, why would I and so many other straight women have this overwhelming and life altering experience of the film?
This may very well be the answer to my questions....
THANK YOU JOHN!!!!!!
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Thanks for the links, John...Always interesting to see authors discussing the same stuff we've discussed in the Themes threads.
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Turning the calendar page to December was painful, what with the terrific picture of Ennis. One of life's ironies. It's a real gift because it wasn't in the movie.
I haven't heard that there will be a BBM calendar for next year, so I guess there won't be. The concept of "moving on" occurred to me:
-- Ennis moves on from Jack
-- we move on from Heath
-- we move on to different calendars, though I would have happily bought BBM calendars for the rest of my life
-- and in a way, we move on from the film, as it recedes and as we run out of things to say about it. I predict that, someday, this website will be history.
Ennis never moves on from Jack. He lives out the rest of his life warmed by those dreams and rocked by that wind. Jack is with him eternally. No-one else takes his place.
Heathens haven't moved on from Heath and many/most will probably wind up like Elvis or James Dean or Marilyn fans, devoted unto death :)
Run out of things to say about BBM? But I've barely begun :D :D
Moving on isn't the same as leaving behind.
I have moved on from the tragedy of Heath Ledger's death and short life.
I had to.
It was just too painfully abrubt, too wounding.
I began to feel that if I wasn't careful Heath and Ennis would merge into one
and down that road I didn't want to go.
I much prefer Ennis as a separate entity, alive for me only in the film and short story.
Nowhere else.
I couldn't agree with you more on Ennis NEVER moving on from Jack.
In that we are one hundred percent in agreement and you know Angel, nothing
else much matters. This is the crux of the story for me. This is finite.
Ennis NEVER moves on from Jack.
I thought, for a while there, that I had run out of things to say about BBM, but
I've discovered lately that I sure as hell haven't.
So I'll be staying on here for a spell. ;)
As for why BBM resonates so deeply with straight older women like myself,
I do agree that it is because the story is more about 'universal human experience' than it
is about rural homphobia and the perils thereof. I've always thought so.
I see BBM as a love story. Always have. Otherwise I wouldn't be here.
I would have seen the film, learned something or had my own views affirmed
and then moved on.
I don't think I would have been as moved. I would not have wept.
I would not have felt as if I knew these two young men intimately.
I would not have had my heart broken. I would not have been as outraged by
society's indifference.
(You know it is a tribute to Ang Lee that he saw BBM as a story of love and
brought this out in his actors.)
This is why I believe the story continues to resonate so deeply with straight
older women like myself. Dare I say it? At our stage in life we have, hopefully,
learned a thing or two. We have valuable life experience. We view things
in a more textural, panoramic way. Know what I mean?
We KNOW that there are things in heaven and earth that were not
dreamt of in our earlier philosophy.
I believe 'universal human experience' is the key.
If only the viewer/reader is open enough to use it.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audio_description
Audio interpretations of BBM movie:
The UK DVD has "English Descriptive Audio"
Do any other video releases of BBM have Descriptive Audio
(the USA video releases don't)?
The descriptive audio is both funny at some times and moving and helpful at others.
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I also like this, on BBM being advertised as a "universal love story":
In this view the story is about two people in love -- truly, deeply -- who through no fault of their own come to grief, in a modern version of the saga of Romeo and Juliet. Although a popular view, it doesn't hold up well under close examination. In fact it's a denial of major themes of both story and film, which are the dangerous -- indeed lethal -- effects of social homophobia, and the devastating psychological effects of self-contempt in a person who represses core parts of his sexual identity.
Hmmmmmm, worth repeating, I think.
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Rosewood, as always you manage to capture poetry in every thought.....
One thing I feel the need to add: I do agree on the universality of love as a main point; and I also believe the particular circumstances of Ennis and Jack create the truth of the tragedy therein. Both resonate with me equally. I can't see the love without seeing the adjunct homophobia. I can never disconnect the two in the character of Ennis, even after Jack dies. I still picture him in his trailer, never talking to anyone about Jack; always wondering was it the tire rim or the tire iron. And always living with the decision to keep what was between them from the sight or judgement of others.
This is because I interpret Jack as being his primary source of both love and pain, even as he remembers him only with pleasure. Because of course, he is dead. Ennis is not living with Jack's live presence as an objective reminder of his own doubts about himself. In short, Jack's introduction into his life triggered the well-bottom of Ennis's DRH-and his death frees Ennis to an extent, while permanently trapping him in his conundrum. His homophobia blossomed because it had a good reason to, in Ennis: His love for Jack. In his own words,- 'it scares the piss outta me.'
Yes he protects Jack's memory and keeps Jack in his heart; but the fundamental prejudice in his character also allows Ennis to never reveal to another human being what he really, deep down, felt. He only tells Linda Higgins, 'one's enough'-talking to himself, really; and Jack's parents about how bad he felt. ( I should count, too, him telling Lureen they herded sheep, I suppose...) He is not really coming out-he has not accepted he has something to come out for. He is mostly helpless to not express his feelings, though still undefined, to those particular people, in those vulnerable moments. We can speculate in fanfic about what he told to whom, beyond those indirect admissions. But the implication seems clear to me: Those shirts are still hanging there, and it is doubtful, did he not think they were 100% safe to hang there without speculation from others, that he would have put them out there. That is the point, I think, of the gray, shuffling image of Ennis, with the shirts a silent witness: He still does NOT want people to find out, deep down. IMO.
To me, BBM is an example of how love does not conquer all. There be dragons, still.
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Heath's death the number 1 entertainment story of the year. Makes me sad all over again.
http://www.mail.com/Article.aspx?articlepath=APNews\General-Entertainment\20081223\Top-Entertainment-Stories.xml&cat=entertainment&subcat=&pageid=1
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^^^^^^^^^
I saw that..he is on the list 2x with TDK. It is sad, yet it is so affirming, too. It brings another dimension to our obsession here-it ain't just us.....that makes his death even more tragic. Many got alot from him.
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Yeah, but for so many it's just that he was a big star and about to get bigger. It's the celebrity and the manner of death which grabs the attention, not the man himself.
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There's nothing wrong with that. I remember years ago a "rising" young tv actor accidentally killed himself on the set while playing with a gun loaded with blanks... I don't remember his name or the show he was on, but I still think of him from time to time and think what a shame it was. And that sort of accident has a lasting effect. My son, for instance, has been battling some undiagnosed illness for the last 6 months... most of the doctors he's seen have been ready to treat the symptoms rather than find out the cause. He's been prescribed every painkiller, anti depressant and anxiety drug in the world... often at the same time... but he does his homework and and doesn't mix them because he doesn't want to die the way Heath did. Honestly, the idea that maybe untold numbers of other young people... and not so young people... being more aware, more careful when mixing drugs is about the only comfort I've gotten in the last 11 months.
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jon hexam was his name, and i remember being stunned. he seemed a lovely man.
(https://ultimatebrokebackforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nndb.com%2Fpeople%2F306%2F000109976%2Fjon-erik-hexum.jpg&hash=0135509f2dbebf77542204304b6c305f8964376d)
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you also reminded me of another shocking on set death, that of kevin smith, a handsome and jocular ARES on XENA. and on HERCULES. he wasvery well liked, and was scheduled to play opposite bruce willis in a major flick when he fell AFTER the completion of a movie in beijing at the age of 38.
(https://ultimatebrokebackforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Falwheaties.com%2FKSmith%2FAres1.gif&hash=697464e6dc25f6718c2312fbec5f3048abc64b8f)
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Does anyone know if the Brokeback film site is gone? My link didn't work this morning. I used to watch the trailer everything morning, but it stopped working a few months ago. So I haven't been there much lately.
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Does anyone know if the Brokeback film site is gone? My link didn't work this morning. I used to watch the trailer everything morning, but it stopped working a few months ago. So I haven't been there much lately.
Hmm, the original "official" site does seem to be gone but
this one is up and contains the trailer along with other scenes.
http://www.comingsoon.net/films.php?id=4620 (http://www.comingsoon.net/films.php?id=4620)
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Alas, I'm getting the same problem I got near the end of the BBM site's existence. I can't see the trailer. I clicked on the forward arrow, and the message whips to "ready" and then it's as if I never clicked the arrow.
Maybe I have a PC problem.
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Alas, I'm getting the same problem I got near the end of the BBM site's existence. I can't see the trailer. I clicked on the forward arrow, and the message whips to "ready" and then it's as if I never clicked the arrow.
Maybe I have a PC problem.
I had not bothered to try and view anything but now that I have
I find that I can't get anything to play either.
When I click the quicktime option I only get
a screen with a question mark.
Very curious.
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I've also tried. Both varietys of Media Player, but neither works........
So it's probably not your PC, Marc.
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you can find the trailer on virtually any of the video upload sites, such as youtube, veoh, daily motion, youku, tudou, etc etc.
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Thanks for the reminder Jack!!!
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not sure weather this is the right thread but im gonna watch BBM today as its the new year and i feel i need a good cry
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I've decided to leave my 2008 BBM calendar on the wall, open to December's lovely picture of Heath.
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Me too, although I think I'm going to leave mine open to April, with that lovely shot of the boys young and laughing and so happy.
Mark
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I still haven't unwrapped my 2008 calendar. I've seen all of the months at Linda's house.
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I still haven't unwrapped my 2008 calendar. I've seen all of the months at Linda's house.
You mean she hasn't shown you my calendar BCJ?
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i hope they do a 2009 calender
anyone got any info?
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I Googled the subject a while back, with no results. I predict no more calendars, though I'd happily buy one each year the rest of my life.
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I still haven't unwrapped my 2008 calendar. I've seen all of the months at Linda's house.
You mean she hasn't shown you my calendar BCJ?
Yes she did ;D
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I still haven't unwrapped my 2008 calendar. I've seen all of the months at Linda's house.
You mean she hasn't shown you my calendar BCJ?
Yes she did ;D
She has shown it to me too..... ::) ;D >:D
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I Googled the subject a while back, with no results. I predict no more calendars, though I'd happily buy one each year the rest of my life.
I never got around to buy 2008's calender, which I very much regret now...... :(
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I'm not sure if this is a Symbolism and Imagery question or not, but it's this:
How often do they smile in the movie? As Ennis said in answer to a different question, "Not often."
I'm prompted to ask because of the reference to the calendar pic for April 2008 where they're both smiling broadly in 1963, though the shot was never in the film.
Another way to look at it is, in what scenes is there little or no smiling?
4th trip: not at all
last trip: a bit around the campfire; of course nothing on the last day (unless I've forgotten something), but there is Ennis's twitch in the tent
At the Twist ranch: I don't think anybody smiles at all. Ennis might smile slightly as he gestures to Jack's mother about the shirts he's carrying.
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There is a tiny shadow of a smile on Ennis's face when OMT tells him that Jack talked about him and bringin him home to the ranch.
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Turns out the pic of Heath in December 2008 is the same pic in February 2007. Can't pull that sheep's wool over my eyes, at least not for long.
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Funny story anyone?
On my mobile phone home picture I have the one at the top of the forum, the DE hug. Last week I couldn't find my phone when I was at work, and I went back to the office where we are based to look for it. One of my colleagues had found it lying on the hot desk I use when I am down there, and taken it into protective custody. Now my whole department use that desk, so no one knew whose it was.
They opened it and looked at the photograph.
The whole office practically, looked at it and decided that it must belong to a new guy who has just started with us, who they suspect, (but don't know) could possibly be gay. They decided between themselves that it must be him and a partner dressed up as cowboys, and they had their photographs taken.
They asked him if he had lost his phone, he said, "no."
I came in, saying has anyone found a mobile phone, I've misplaced mine. "Yes", they said "but what on earth is the picture on it?"
"It's a scene from my favourite film, Brokeback Mountain," I said.
Everyone collapsed into giggles.
None of them have any problems with people's sexuality, but I would have thought that someone in my office would have seen BBM by now!
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Funny story - so did they think he was Jack or Ennis? :D
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Love it ;D.
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Well as he is dark, so Jack I suppose.
I still wonder if there are people in my office who think I am strange enough to have two gay friends in cowboy hats as the home page on my phone.
What do they think I am, weird or something?
:D :D :D
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^^^^^^^^^^
Who cares what they think, huh?..the best thing about such incidences, is they make people stop and examine themselves with very little prompting. Always a good thing, IMO. :)
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I'm puzzled that, 3 years after the movie opened, the colleagues haven't been persuaded by someone to see the movie, and don't recognize the pic. Particularly if they don't have a problem w/ homosexuality. I used to tell people BBM is one of the 5-10 best movies ever made. I now tell them it could be the best movie ever made.
But I don't think my boss has seen it. And two weeks ago I loaned by DVD to a very broadminded lady here at work.
And my favorite bridge partner hasn't seen it. She and I had a funny moment about a year ago. The question was: when did Oklahoma open on Broadway? I knew it was during WW-2, and she thought it was after WW-2, latish 40s maybe. So we bet $1 on it, and of course I won. During or after the wager, I said, you know it's risky to bet against a gay guy on a question of musical theater!
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OKLAHOMA! opened on Broadway on March 31, 1943. And BBM is in some ways the best movie ever made. So there.
Mark
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I'm puzzled that, 3 years after the movie opened, the colleagues haven't been persuaded by someone to see the movie, and don't recognize the pic. Particularly if they don't have a problem w/ homosexuality. I used to tell people BBM is one of the 5-10 best movies ever made. I now tell them it could be the best movie ever made.
But I don't think my boss has seen it. And two weeks ago I loaned by DVD to a very broadminded lady here at work.
And my favorite bridge partner hasn't seen it. She and I had a funny moment about a year ago. The question was: when did Oklahoma open on Broadway? I knew it was during WW-2, and she thought it was after WW-2, latish 40s maybe. So we bet $1 on it, and of course I won. During or after the wager, I said, you know it's risky to bet against a gay guy on a question of musical theater!
These are colleagues who work as deaf sign language communicators with students, they also work with the blind and read braille and produce braille manuscripts. They are surrounded by young people all day are full of kindness and compassion for everyone, and they have never seen Brokeback Mountain, or obviously can recognise either Heath Ledger or Jake Gyllenhaal.
I was aghast!
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What can I say, Jess? You clearly haven't been doing your evangelical duty ;D ;D ;D
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OKLAHOMA! opened on Broadway on March 31, 1943. And BBM is in some ways the best movie ever made. So there.
Mark
In some ways..... ?? ???
In what ways is it not the best movie ever made??
When I first saw BBM and talked about it at work, there was only one (out of maybe 40) who had seen it. I doubt anyone has seen it since then, and I don't talk about it any more either.....it's become too personal.
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Hello,
I hope someone can help me. A couple years ago I was able to locate the Brokeback Mountain Oscar CD Promo. This promo contained 22 instrumental songs. I've lost the CD containing these songs and need to have them. I almost positive someone on the forum posted the link to the CD promo shortly before the Oscar nominations. If anyone out there can provide me with the link to download I would greatly appreciate it. You can either post it on the forum or email it to me at ddayton@nycap.rr.com.
Sincerely,
Morton
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Another thing I say about BBM is that it's the best combination of acting, script and direction you'll ever see. That's not an exaggeration. Maybe that makes it the best movie ever made, but maybe it doesn't.
My knee-jerk comparison is w/ Citizen Kane. BBM's acting throughout is perfect or close to it, and CK's is not. I'll have to ponder script and direction. My memory is the choppiness of CK's timeline bothered me.
I wonder: is there a thread that compares BBM with other great movies? I can guess which one would win each comparison, but the points of difference might be of interest.
Except for CK and GWTW, I don't have a feel for what other films might be at the top of heap. Casablanca, for example, is always in the top 10 or 20 or so, as it should be. Its acting and script sparkle, but the direction doesn't, at least in my memory. Come to think of it, same for GWTW: great acting and script, but the direction was at least good but probably not excellent. Workmanlike.
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1 Citizen Kane 1941
2 Casablanca 1942
3 The Godfather 1972
4 Gone with the Wind 1939
5 Lawrence of Arabia 1962
6 The Wizard of Oz 1939
7 The Graduate 1967
8 On the Waterfront 1954
9 Schindler's List 1993
10 Singin' in the Rain 1952
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AFI%27s_100_Years..._100_Movies
Hopefully Brokeback makes the AFI list one day.
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Given that BBM is nowhere on AFI's top 100 list, it's tempting to say the list is worthless, even though it's reasonable to put CK, GWTW, The Graduate and Casablanca in the top 10. I don't know On the Waterfront and Lawrence of Arabia well, but I don't think they belong in the top 10. Sunset Boulevard (#12) and Chinatown (#19) are definitely better. I'd put both of them in my top 10.
I have memories of reading of people's top 10 lists.
The Wizard of Oz is the first movie I memorized, dialog and songs. Music Man is the second, and BBM is the third.
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Hi all.
Just been searching eBay DVDs and I found the following write-up of BBM which is probably one of the best I have read anywhere - thought I would share it with you :)
Based on the short story by Pulitzer Prize-winning author E. Annie Proulx, BROKEBACK MOUNTAIN is the tragic and moving story of two cowboys who unexpectedly fall in love while working together one summer in 1963. When the film begins, rodeo cowboy Jack Twist (Jake Gyllenhaal) and ranch-hand Ennis Del Mar (Heath Ledger) are strangers meeting for the first time. As the more outgoing one, it is Jack who must initiate a friendship with Ennis, a man so tight-lipped and self-consciously macho he refuses all facial expression. From this strained beginning, Jack and Ennis gradually begin to bond on cold lonely nights over a fire in the mountains of Signal, Wyoming. One particularly chilly evening, Jack invites Ennis into his tent, where a sudden awkward embrace sends their relationship in a new direction. Though each man stubbornly defends his heterosexuality, the spark between them cannot help but grow, with that initial summer on Brokeback Mountain becoming their reference point for happiness during the rest of their lives. Spanning 20 years, the film moves at an impressively slow pace that really captures the detailed and unhurried style of Proulxs story. Seeing each other a few times a year at best, Ennis and Jack spend the rest of their time half-heartedly living up to societys expectations by marrying and having kids. When the lovers do meet, there is a sense of love so palpable and frustrating it often manifests itself in physical violence. Gyllenhaal shines as the films hopeful light, and Ledger gives a powerful performance as the emotionally blocked Ennis. Academy Award-winning director Ang Lee captures the natural beauty of Wyoming and Texas with camerawork that, while beautiful, never feels imposing. Gustavo Santaolallas simple yet haunting score helps to complete a beautiful portrait of regret and wasted chances.
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http://www.buzzimage.com/en/work/making_of/33
whoever first posted this, thank you!
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Thanks Anna for that write-up. You're right, it's very good. Short and concise. Says a whole lot in one short paragraph.
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Our dear Rosewood asked me to leave a post, so I decided to put it on one of the threads she normally uses.
She is currently dealing with a serious medical issue: She is actually undergoing chemo for cancer.
I know she misses being here, and she just wanted to let people know why she has not been.
Please keep her in your thoughts, and know that she wants to come back and post, but is unable to do so right now.
:(
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Thank you for that, Jo. Pass on my best wishes to Rosewood. I hope she'll be back soon with her wondrous poetic posts.
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And mine. I've been thinking about her because I'm enjoying reading books she's recommended.
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I had been missing her - I'm sorry to hear that she's been away for such a miserable reason. (I've sent you a PM).
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(https://ultimatebrokebackforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi543.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fgg459%2Freesejake%2F4814.jpg&hash=06b93f1221f13bd72bb6c3e49c1e08f1004cf1d0)
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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/hubs/realtrips/4944309/Ranching-with-cowboys-in-Wild-West-Wyoming.html
"...I asked a wrangler what he thought of the two cowboys in
Brokeback Mountain. I soon wished I hadn't."
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Thank you for that link. "One. I ain't got time for no sheep herders. And two, I ain't got time for no gays." Some things haven't changed much. Looks like the Hideout is a holiday destination to avoid.
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I went to Walmart here in the Midwest USA
at about 0100 on 2009-03-10 and bought the
Blu-ray Disc of Brokeback Mountain.
Even using a Philips MC-129 Micro System, the
Blu-ray Disc (DTS-HD Master Audio) soundtrack
seems to be more detailed than the regular
DVD (Dolby Digital) soundtrack.
I'll listen to the Blu-ray Disc soundtrack with
headphones in the next few days, maybe
some of the "which character said what"
can be resolved.
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... maybe some of the "which character said what" can be resolved.
OK, I'll start the list.
1. A few people claim that Jack called Ennis "sweetie" during the bloody nose scene. I simply cannot believe it.
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he did..you have to listen real close; he says it fast-and you'll see Ennis's enraged reaction, right behind it, as his fist balls up on Jack's shoulder.
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http://www.davidfisco.com/node/166
"While no character in Brokeback Mountain
can be considered an Objectivist and the
film is philosophically muddied and inconsistent..."
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http://www.davidfisco.com/node/166
"While no character in Brokeback Mountain
can be considered an Objectivist and the
film is philosophically muddied and inconsistent..."
Hi LL,
This is a very interesting thread, and David Fisco's article was something of an eye opener, thanks.
"...Why employ careful research, setting your story in geographically accurate locations, only to have your most august relationship develop on a fictitious mountain?... When a writer opens a door allowing anyone to call any scene a phantasm, anything goes. Such a writer takes no moral, social or epistemic stand, and no interpretation of that writer's work has any validity. A writer who engages in such philosophic treason is worse than the modern "artists" who hang blank canvases hoping viewers will project whatever the viewers wish on their nonsensical "creations." At least with the modern artists we can quickly look elsewhere; the dramatist who engages in such behavior pilfers two hours and fifteen minutes of our lives."
"...Although not written in the genre of Romantic Realism and seriously flawed in philosophy, morality, construction and execution..."
-Az.
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^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Did Jack and Ennis marry their wives in good faith? Clearly, both men were bisexual and willing to perform sexually with their wives.
Another example of someone assuming bisexuality because a man can sleep with a woman, as well as a man. How naive. How many gay men were married for decades? All we need it to look around our forum...sigh.
Interesting analysis, from the objectivism pov of Ennis, especially. I don't normally embrace philosophical interpretations-they always seem one or two layers removed from true inner motivations of characters, but I really liked this one. I don't agree with all of it, but I do agree with alot of it.
I think it is an example of how the story and film just can't quite co-mingle in every instance. There are definite contradictions-read the footnotes, too, there is some interesting stuff in there. I like how the writer recognizes the heterosexulaizing of some of the love scenes on film. I've always felt that way; the story is much grittier, much more like I'd imagine two guys feeling comfortable with each other. Some important stuff in there about denial, too-and about Ennis's need to conform.
tx for posting it! It's worth a whole thread by itself, almost.
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I found the article most interesting, but I tend to the view that the story represents "real life" characters, and can "real life characters ever successfully fit a philosophical model?
-
Probably not perfectly...but I think philosophical models can be applied in general to characters-and people. In literature, I know, it's easier to label. If Ennis were standing here talking to us, he'd be a bit harder to peg for all of the complexities, I think.
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I was thinking, that if you fitted the characters to an overall philosophical plan, and if all serious writing had to fit that same model, that literature would soon become boring and predictable.
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I agree. It's the individual perceptions of the writer that fuel the unique impact.
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http://www.davidfisco.com/node/166
Bwaaaahaahaa !!! I love that review to death! How do you say 'clueless' in Objectivese?
"~The plot can be fully understood only from the Objectivist perspective. Had the script better exploited this, Brokeback Mountain would have been sublimed to brilliant tragedy.~"
yes, Ossana and McMurtry just threw the story in the trash, such a shame!
"~Under Objectivist morality, this situation would be justification for Jack and Ennis to commit suicide if the men realized that, due to their restriction, their lives had no chance of ever being heroic. As Ayn Rand wrote in John Galt's suicide justification speech in Atlas Shrugged, 'there will be no values for me to seek...and I do not care to exist without values.' "
Not to worry, John. If sententiousness is a value, you'll never run out of values.
"In an alternate script, the two could have had a denouement discussion about their values and their inability to achieve greatness in the world to which they must return, check into a hotel and suicide. That version of Brokeback Mountain would be much closer to Randian fiction and drama."
Very true. It would be a trifle strange perhaps, to see Ennis and Jack all of a sudden talking existentially about Heroes; but yes, it certainly would put the Rand Touch upon the movie!
"A final potential objection is puzzling, and remains nascent and underdeveloped in this article. The objection revolves around the question: How much of the plot of Brokeback Mountain does Proulx intend to be "real" within the context of the fiction and how much, if any, is a lie-of-the-mind? Toward the end of writing this article, I discovered an anomaly in the structure of Brokeback Mountain: All of the many geographic references in the film are real with the exception of three locations which appear to be fictitious: "
He goes on for a ways about this. He suspects... something. He is baffled and upset. "Is this real Wyoming, or some fantasy? 'cause if it's not real Wyoming, it's vile and amoral. Would somebody pleeze tell me whether this is real Wyoming, or that other Wyoming?" A paraphrase.
"Although not written in the genre of Romantic Realism and seriously flawed in philosophy, morality, construction and execution"
-- Romantic Realism being the the genre of Ms Rand's revered tomes. It deals with 'people not as they are, but as they might be, and ought to be' -- her words. So, right, Brokeback is definitely not Romantic Realism!!
Apparently, Non-romantic Realism strikes no chord with objectivists. Altas Shrugged is the world's longest Harlequin romance. For all its grandiosity, I really think it is a teenager's fantasy of the strongest guy in the human race, ready to spit in everybody's eye but... taking her, and her alone, for his own.
(https://ultimatebrokebackforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi46.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Ff104%2FvcdrtPH%2FFabio_Shrugged.jpg&hash=8a0ce43ab9c22103746a1438f43f07c6bed7c286)
Oh, and for those who wish to hook up with an objectivist, check out http://www.theatlasphere.com/dating/index.php?page=index. Happy hunting!
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Well --
it must be a heavy burden to go through life trying to work in a Randian understanding of all art.
Thus the preoccupation with suicide.
::)
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Oh wow, that article is amazing.
"Were these characters even gay?
the poor guy, he was gobsmacked by Brokeback Fever and forced to consider the movie, his mind kept returning to it again and again!
what a shock that must have been for him!
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I have way too much free time on Saturdays ;D
I've been searching for the earliest occurence of the word "Brokeback"
This is from a 1963 article in Time Magazine:
Lonesome Lovers
The Ballad of the Sad Café, adapted by Edward Albee from Carson McCullers' story, finds the playwright in the role of ventriloquist's dummy. In echoing another voice, Albee has temporarily lost his own. In misconceived fidelity, the playwright has subordinated the dramatic to the novella form. He has relinquished a shapely, abrasive precision of language for mistily inflated poeticizing. As a play-to-play progression, the effect is dismaying; Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf? is to The Ballad of the Sad Café what an icicle is to its melted puddle.
Sad Café is a ballad of unreciprocated loves, testimony to a voguish dramatic ailment known as incurable aloneness. In their intertwining relationship, the three fantast-lovers in Sad Café are consumed not by their mutual fevers but by their solitary hallucinations.
Miss Amelia (Colleen Dewhurst) is a giantess, a strapping man's man of a woman. She runs a liquor and drygoods store in a dull and dusty Southern town and is as tight with her affections as with her cash. On the weather-beaten clapboard siding of her store, the faded lettering DRINK NEHI is a hint of some ghostly thirst for life. Marvin Macy (Lou Antonio) thirsts for Miss Amelia, and he reforms his rakehell ways to woo and wed her. In the ten scarifying days of their life together, he never beds her. Instead, she flings him to the floor and out of her life with venomous contempt. The castaway takes to crime, and his love-turned-to-hate festers in a Georgia penitentiary.
A hunchbacked dwarf named Cousin Lymon (Michael Dunn) comes along to claim kinship with Miss Amelia and monkey-walk his way into her barricaded heart. Cousin Lymon is sly, querulous and malevolent, but in her shy-smiling gladness Miss Amelia turns her store into a café where her half-pet half-child holds court. One night Marvin Macy shows up, and it is the dwarf's turn to love unrequitedly. Cousin Lymon is infatuated with the ex-jailbird who has seen the world, but Marvin cruelly cuffs him and calls him "Brokeback." The stage is thus set for a kind of gladiators' duel to the death between Miss Amelia and Marvin Macy. Glistening with hogfat and ringed by townsfolk, the pair slug and wrestle each other like mastodons before some prehistoric cave. As Colleen Dewhurst and Lou Antonio enact it, this raw battle of the sexes is charged with a passionate intensity that convicts the rest of the play of emotional anemia.
None of the loves in the Sad Café are of an aberrant kind that dares not speak its name. These loves do not know their names, and Albee is at a loss to make them credible. He resorts to sham mystification as exemplified by a narrator who pops in to bridge the gaps in the script and utter radio serial profundities: "No one can know what really takes place in the soul of the lover." A faintly supercilious device at best, the narrator tediously describes what ought to have been vitally dramatized—a confession of the playwright's failure.
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,897027-1,00.html (http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,897027-1,00.html)
The word is used 3 times in the story:
"What ails this Brokeback?" he asked with a rough jerk of his thumb.
"That will learn you, Brokeback," said Marvin Macy.
"Out of my way, Brokeback -- I'll snatch you bald-headed."
http://www.scribd.com/doc/11867410/McCullers-Carson-The-Ballad-of-the-Sad-Cafe-and-Other-Stories (http://www.scribd.com/doc/11867410/McCullers-Carson-The-Ballad-of-the-Sad-Cafe-and-Other-Stories)
THE BALLAD OF THE SAD CAFÉ
AND OTHER STORIES
A Bantam Book / published by arrangement
with Houghton Mifflin Company
PUBLISHING HISTORY
Houghton Mifflin edition published May 1951
Book Find Club edition published May 1951
Bantam edition / March 1958
Bantam Modern Classic edition / August 1969
Bantam Pathfinder edition / December 1970
Bantam edition / November 1971
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Bugs! Let's talk about bugs.
I just realized that this movie was filmed in the Canadian Rockies in the summer of 2004. Well, as circumstance would have it, I spent my entire summer backpacking in the Canadian Rockies in 2004. I can't even believe it myself, since I have become obsessed with this movie after the first time I saw it -only a week ago. Nope, I never saw Ang, Jake, Heath, or even the person who makes coffee for the crew...
...but, I did spend a lot of time with those unsung extras- the gnats, mosquitoes, no-see-ums, etc! I will never go back to Brokeback Mountain, because there's not enough insect repellant in the world to keep those critters away. Has anyone else been bugged by all the bugs that swarm the characters in the movie? I really felt it for Heath when he has that fly on his neck during the boy's final scene!
Sorry if this has been discussed here already. I'm late to the party.
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Welcome Donnab
the party is still in full swing ;)
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Glad to hear it, Nax!
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I have way too much free time on Saturdays ;D
I've been searching for the earliest occurence of the word "Brokeback"
This is from a 1963 article in Time Magazine:
Lonesome Lovers
The Ballad of the Sad Café, adapted by Edward Albee from Carson McCullers' story, finds the playwright in the role of ventriloquist's dummy. In echoing another voice, Albee has temporarily lost his own. In misconceived fidelity, the playwright has subordinated the dramatic to the novella form. He has relinquished a shapely, abrasive precision of language for mistily inflated poeticizing. As a play-to-play progression, the effect is dismaying; Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf? is to The Ballad of the Sad Café what an icicle is to its melted puddle.
Sad Café is a ballad of unreciprocated loves, testimony to a voguish dramatic ailment known as incurable aloneness. In their intertwining relationship, the three fantast-lovers in Sad Café are consumed not by their mutual fevers but by their solitary hallucinations.
Miss Amelia (Colleen Dewhurst) is a giantess, a strapping man's man of a woman. She runs a liquor and drygoods store in a dull and dusty Southern town and is as tight with her affections as with her cash. On the weather-beaten clapboard siding of her store, the faded lettering DRINK NEHI is a hint of some ghostly thirst for life. Marvin Macy (Lou Antonio) thirsts for Miss Amelia, and he reforms his rakehell ways to woo and wed her. In the ten scarifying days of their life together, he never beds her. Instead, she flings him to the floor and out of her life with venomous contempt. The castaway takes to crime, and his love-turned-to-hate festers in a Georgia penitentiary.
A hunchbacked dwarf named Cousin Lymon (Michael Dunn) comes along to claim kinship with Miss Amelia and monkey-walk his way into her barricaded heart. Cousin Lymon is sly, querulous and malevolent, but in her shy-smiling gladness Miss Amelia turns her store into a café where her half-pet half-child holds court. One night Marvin Macy shows up, and it is the dwarf's turn to love unrequitedly. Cousin Lymon is infatuated with the ex-jailbird who has seen the world, but Marvin cruelly cuffs him and calls him "Brokeback." The stage is thus set for a kind of gladiators' duel to the death between Miss Amelia and Marvin Macy. Glistening with hogfat and ringed by townsfolk, the pair slug and wrestle each other like mastodons before some prehistoric cave. As Colleen Dewhurst and Lou Antonio enact it, this raw battle of the sexes is charged with a passionate intensity that convicts the rest of the play of emotional anemia.
None of the loves in the Sad Café are of an aberrant kind that dares not speak its name. These loves do not know their names, and Albee is at a loss to make them credible. He resorts to sham mystification as exemplified by a narrator who pops in to bridge the gaps in the script and utter radio serial profundities: "No one can know what really takes place in the soul of the lover." A faintly supercilious device at best, the narrator tediously describes what ought to have been vitally dramatized—a confession of the playwright's failure.
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,897027-1,00.html (http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,897027-1,00.html)
The word is used 3 times in the story:
"What ails this Brokeback?" he asked with a rough jerk of his thumb.
"That will learn you, Brokeback," said Marvin Macy.
"Out of my way, Brokeback -- I'll snatch you bald-headed."
http://www.scribd.com/doc/11867410/McCullers-Carson-The-Ballad-of-the-Sad-Cafe-and-Other-Stories (http://www.scribd.com/doc/11867410/McCullers-Carson-The-Ballad-of-the-Sad-Cafe-and-Other-Stories)
THE BALLAD OF THE SAD CAFÉ
AND OTHER STORIES
A Bantam Book / published by arrangement
with Houghton Mifflin Company
PUBLISHING HISTORY
Houghton Mifflin edition published May 1951
Book Find Club edition published May 1951
Bantam edition / March 1958
Bantam Modern Classic edition / August 1969
Bantam Pathfinder edition / December 1970
Bantam edition / November 1971
Thanks for that tidbit, John. Interesting.
I remember in 1999 that a local community theater staged this play and it was a disaster, albeit a noble failure. To this day it's referred to as THE SALAD OF THE BAD CAFE. (In case you're wondering, I wasn't in it.)
Mark
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Hi Donnab, Like you new here. Just to tell you I am going to the 'Rockies in September. Have been told about the 'bugs' up there, really hope it wont spoil my visit as I am Soooooooooooooooooooo looking forward to going there. I have brought so many books about the place I could set up a library!!!!!!!!! When I get there I will be going to some of the Brokeback locations .I have printed off some maps etc off comp. Itss such a huge place I hope I get to see just one or two.We are going in an RV. so should be able to do some miles. Yes, I did feel for Heath and Jake having to carry on filming scenes when all flying flotsam and jetsom were using them as a landing pad!!!!!!!!.
suelyblu
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September should be a lot better than when I was there! The bugs will probably have died down by then and the weather will be less rainy. My boyfriend has always wanted to go back to the Canadian Rockies (we were backpacking through there at the time of the filming) and now that I'm obsessed with this movie, I have finally agreed to go back again. Now, he keeps teasing me by saying we can't stop at any of the filming sites! I'm going to have to smack him!
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Oh! I thought when Aguirre slaps at that mosquito (count aint what I hoped for neither, you ranch stiffs ain't never no good) I just thought that was brilliant acting.
ha!
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LOL- tell you what! Really, I have been backpacking for 25 years and have hiked in mountain ranges all over the world and nothing was worse than the Canadian Rockies in summer '04! You couldn't even eat outside of the tent without being eaten alive by swarms of mosquitoes and gnats. It really makes me wonder why they chose to film there. You can see the swarms of bugs in many of the outdoor scenes. Gosh, I'm sure the actors and crew had to use a lot of DEET just to be able to go outdoors! When we look at our pics from the trip, the scenery is so beautiful. Then, when I saw the movie, I remembered how bad it really was!
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Do you know....I'm fast changing my ming about going to The Rockies'. Are you lot trying to put me off 'cause you want it to yourselves!!!!!!!!! But really I would walk over hot coals to get there to see some of the locations where BMM was filmed. Just to stand where Heath Ledger (Ennis) has stood would be awesome. After I've done that, they could screw down the lid and bury me up there!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
suelyblu. xx
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Does anyone know how to get in touch with the criterion collection. I hear they have done the ben button film which is shocking, since they usually release older films. Since Focus pictures won't give us a proper dvd of brokeback mountain, Do you think they might be interested? I know the do a bang up job when it comes to bonus material.
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Does anyone know how to get in touch with the criterion collection. ~
Try the web site. Make a password & log in; maybe there's a contact # or e-mail address for suggestions.
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DAL - thank you. cross your fingers.
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(https://ultimatebrokebackforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi275.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fjj282%2FSanFranciscoJohn%2FBBMEssay.jpg&hash=df3ea2ad62b5fe323ab8217d35bb33762c267353)
The essay investigates the film adaptation process of the short story "Brokeback Mountain". The short story is compared to the film manuscript and the film. The process of adaptation is analyzed through a narratological perspective and uses Linda Hutcheon's "A Theory of Adaptation" as a starting point when analyzing matters such as focalization, narrators,voiceovers and framed narratives.
University essay from Högskolan i Gävle/Institutionen för humaniora och samhällsvetenskap
1. Introduction: Aim and Method
How does a piece of writing change as it is re-written and more importantly, how does it
change when it is re-written for another medium? What gets added and subtracted? Is the
main storyline kept intact or does the adaptor change it in any way he or she likes? These are
some of the questions that will be discussed from a narratological perspective in this essay.
Annie Proulx’s “Brokeback Mountain” will be the object of investigation: the short story that
became widely known through its appearance in the New Yorker in 1997. Later on it was also
published in Proulx’s collection of short stories Close Range: Wyoming Stories in 1999. It
became most famous of all, however, through the film medium; many (myself included)
surely saw it without being aware that it was a screen adaptation. Brokeback Mountain was
very much appreciated in its written form and its reputation grew even greater. One might
even go so far as to say that it became a world wide phenomenon when it was adapted into a
film by director Ang Lee, based on the screenplay by Larry McMurtry and Diana Ossana. It
was labelled as “a tale of two gay cowboys” (Proulx, GM 130) and the two actors playing the
main characters were widely acclaimed for their performances. However, this is not what will
be the main concern in this essay. As already mentioned, the purpose of this essay is to
compare the short story to the screenplay and film and make note of things that separate them,
but also point out what they have in common. Both the short story and the film will be
investigated from a narratological perspective. To put it in the words of Jonathan Culler, focus
will lie on “notions of plot, of different kinds of narrators [and] narrative techniques” where the aim will be to “understand the components of narrative and [analyze] how particular narratives achieve their effects”.
http://hig.diva-portal.org/smash/get/diva2:200890/FULLTEXT01 (http://hig.diva-portal.org/smash/get/diva2:200890/FULLTEXT01)
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Has this been posted before?
Just came across it and was amazed and pleased that it's still making the rounds.
http://www.angryalien.com/aa/brokebackbuns.asp
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OMG! That was hysterical!
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^^^^
I watched it three times.
Not as many times as I watched the real movie though. :D
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I've seen it before but it's still soooo funny :D :D.
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John, that essay really sounds interesting.....how did you come across it?
And it's written here in Sweden.... ;) 8)
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John, that essay really sounds interesting.....how did you come across it?
And it's written here in Sweden.... ;) 8)
I found it on the internet ;D
Actually I was searching for news items for TDS last night and came across the essay.
I have found a few others recently. Maybe I'll post those later.
Some of the articles I find are only available for money, but there are quite a few good ones that are free.
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I found it on the internet ;D
Actually I was searching for news items for TDS last night and came across the essay.
I have found a few others recently. Maybe I'll post those later.
Some of the articles I find are only available for money, but there are quite a few good ones that are free.
Please do!
I always find it interesting to read articles written from an objective and/or academic point of view.
I mean, we all know it's the best movie ever made, but it's interesting to see what non-brokies have to say about it...
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John, that essay really sounds interesting.....how did you come across it?
And it's written here in Sweden.... ;) 8)
One just has to read it...
Here's to Högskolan i Gävle!!!!!!
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I think Lee's "Ice Storm" is part of the Criterion Collection, so it's not out of the realm of imagination. But BBM is probably just too lucrative a franchise for Focus to give up on just yet.
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Sharrett, Christopher, Department of Communication (March 2009). “Death of the Strong, Silent Type: The Achievement of Brokeback Mountain.” Film International, no. 37.
(https://ultimatebrokebackforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi275.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fjj282%2FSanFranciscoJohn%2FBBMSeton.jpg&hash=642f6d357a4fcba6a0108337a4f778127ed006e5)
excerpt from Page 26
American Gothic
Ennis’s visit to the Twist homestead in the penultimate scene provides clues to much of the film, and explains why Ennis is necessarily the strong, silent male. If the Twists are representative of the American family, one has little choice, failing truly revolutionary options, but to shut up and put on a determined look that projects courage and conceals pain.
The Twist farmstead, weathered and tumbledown on the outside, incredibly stark and chilly in the interior, is a version of Grant Wood’s much-debated, omnipresent 1933 painting, American Gothic. The painting is indeed gothic, conveying the horror of Middle America as seat of repression and absolute order. The film has its correlates for Wood’s glaring farmer, hand clasping a threatening pitchfork, his female companion averting her gaze, her dress fastened tightly at the neck, and the peaked gothic (which is to say barbaric) gable of their wooden house behind them. John Twist (Peter McRobbie) is almost an Expressionist ghoul from the Weimar cinema, his words to Ennis (laying down the law about Jack’s final resting place) threatening beyond their actual content. Jack’s meek, frightened-looking mother (Roberta Maxwell) is not mentioned by name, even in the final credits, so irrelevant is she to the world around her, and even her own household.
If Lureen and Alma are marginal to their worlds (Lureen less so than Alma since she is a somewhat phallicized woman, internalizing the father’s values and running his affairs), Jack’s mother is the film’s final statement about women in patriarchal society—she has learned to mind her place to survive. Her small kindnesses to Ennis certainly don’t go unnoticed by her husband; they are permitted since they don’t disturb the way things are. The mother might be said to suggest a tiny potentiality within an awful setting, but her presence seems more involved in suggesting how the best of humanity can survive regardless of social systems, rather than hope for transformative change in the future.
This small, economical scene is one of the cinema’s most devastating portraits of patriarchal society. Jack’s early comments about the father’s utter failure (‘can’t please my old man, no way’), especially as a mentor (‘never taught me a thing’), find pointed meaning in the scene. As does Ennis’s story about his own father forcing him to look at the body of a dead gay man in a Wyoming drainage ditch, the patriarch both outright murdere(Ennis’s rumination about the father’s complicity is persuasive) and child abuser, his legacy forever imprinted on Ennis’s shattered psyche.
The last scene, with Ennis alone at his trailer, is exceptionally bleak, modified only a little by the arrival of Alma, Jr. and her announcement of her wedding, which momentarily cheers her father – if the concept of joy has any application to him. Contrary to several critics, I don’t read this scene as a poignant affirmation of marriage, with Ennis (alone after Alma, Jr.’s departure) sadly mourning the marriage to Jack that never happened. The scene’s emphasis is on desolation rather than what-might-have-been. After all, there is no evidence that Ennis would have accepted a union of any sort with Jack, his every gesture refusing that kind of intimacy out of fear of society and himself.
The film’s last shots are of the bloody shirts, the postcard of the mountain, and the trailer window pointing to a frontier that no longer exists, as all possibility is foreclosed. The strong, silent American male has come to a cul de sac, that is the place to which the American ideal of civilization has led. Ennis’s stoicism, his playing by the rules in the hope of something better, has simply produced his erasure
Full article:
http://www.atypon-link.com/INT/doi/pdf/10.1386/fiin.7.1.16 (http://www.atypon-link.com/INT/doi/pdf/10.1386/fiin.7.1.16)
Christopher Sharrett is Professor of Communication and Film Studies at Seton Hall
University. He is author of The Rifleman (Wayne State University Press), editor of
Crisis Cinema: The Apocalyptic Idea in Postmodern Narrative Film (Maisonneuve Press),
and Mythologies of Violence in Postmodern Media (Wayne State University Press), and
co-editor of Planks of Reason: Essays on the Horror Film. His work has appeared in Cineaste,
Cinema Journal, Framework, Journal of Popular Film and Television, Film International,
Kino Eye, Senses of Cinema, and other publications, including numerous anthologies.
About Film International
Film International started in 1973 as Filmhäftet in Sweden and has through the years recruited contributors among the most distinguished scholars and journalists around the world.
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Hey, something happened in Riverton:
http://www.billingsgazette.net/articles/2009/04/13/news/wyoming/33-escape.txt (http://www.billingsgazette.net/articles/2009/04/13/news/wyoming/33-escape.txt)
A guy escaped from the honor farm. He was doing 7-10 for involuntary manslaughter for killing somebody named Aguirre.
Not exactly riveting, but it's first news from there I've heard of in forever.
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Hey, something happened in Riverton:
http://www.billingsgazette.net/articles/2009/04/13/news/wyoming/33-escape.txt (http://www.billingsgazette.net/articles/2009/04/13/news/wyoming/33-escape.txt)
A guy escaped from the honor farm. He was doing 7-10 for involuntary manslaughter for killing somebody named Aguirre.
Not exactly riveting, but it's first news from there I've heard of in forever.
Where are you getting Aguirre's name from?
This guy killed someone named Teasdale
http://www.casperstartribune.net/articles/2004/10/28/news/wyoming/bcd91be5ea472cf187256f39007ca750.txt (http://www.casperstartribune.net/articles/2004/10/28/news/wyoming/bcd91be5ea472cf187256f39007ca750.txt)
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I made it up, but should have supplied an emoticon.
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hi Marc --
Is there an emoticon that expresses "I made this up" ?
You had me going, but I'm the type that hates April fool's day.
Thanks for correction, John
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And speaking of April fool's, either Bettermost or EnnisJack announced that Ang Lee had joined their Forum. And he had his own Q&A thread. I started mentally composing the questions I wanted to ask.
It must have taken me 10 minutes to figure out it was a joke.
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I noticed that when Ennis spins Jack around at FNIT, and spins Alma around in bed, he spun them both around in the same direction, more orl less counterclockwise.
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Marc, is that because they are north of the equator in both instances?
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^^^^^^^^^^^^
;D ;D ;D ;D
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I forget which way water spins going down the drain on this side of the International Date Line. (That's a joke, son.)
Another example is high pressure and low pressure weather systems. The winds spin in opposite directions. If memory serves, hurricanes spin counter-clockwise and they are low pressure in spades.
So if AP was alluding to weather instead of draining water, then she's implying butt-fucking is low-pressure. But into addition to being counter-clockwise, it's counter-intuitive. If I had to pick one, I'd call butt-fucking high pressure. At least, that's the conclusion I'd draw from what people tell me. Not that I have any first-hand experience, you understand. Nope, not me.
But maybe AP was referring to bad weather. But Jack enjoyed it and Alma didn't, so that doesn't work.
Well, that enough analysis for one afternoon at work. At taxpayer expense.
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^^^^^^^^^^^^
Huh ??? ???
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Well, that enough analysis for one afternoon at work. At taxpayer expense.
Watch out Marc, Obama has warned that he's looking for wasteful spending! Your analysis might get cut-- :( :o
But at least if that happens, you can hope Obama will be able to get you some health care.
;) ;D
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"Brokeback Mountain" becomes an opera
The premiere is scheduled for June 2013 in Madrid's Teatro Real.
SANTIAGO.- When the film "Brokeback mountain" (Ang Lee, 2005) premiered, it led to a heated debate about the subjects being tackled by mass film industry. The winning of more than 45 awards -including three Oscars (Best Director, Best Adapted Screenplay and Best Original Score) and the Golden Lion from the Venice Film Festival (Best Film)- was supported by an indisputable success in movie theaters. Its main characters, Ennis del Mar and Jack Twist, were considered as tragic heroes immersed in a hostile world and the actors, Heath Ledger and Jake Gyllenhaal, became sex symbols without frontiers.
Now a new step is being given in dealing with love between men due to the fact that Gérard Mortier, artistic director of the New York City Opera, commissioned an opera about this subject to composer Charles Wuorinen. It should have premiered on that theater's stage, but the composer himself explains: "Mortier had a rift with the theater and left. He is now working at the Teatro Real in Madrid. And 'Brokeback mountain' will make its debut there in June 2013".
—How have you dealt with the story of "Brokeback mountain"? Is your opera based on Annie Proulx's story or on Ang Lee's film? Will people see the characters of the film on this occasion on an opera stage?
—Annie Proulx herself wrote the libretto which is already finished. I feel it does not bear much relation to the film. It has the same characters, but unlike the story, however, women play a slightly bigger part in it, as in the film. But I have not contacted Ang Lee and I have contacted Annie Proulx. I just finished working with her when she came recently to Nueva York to add the last touches.
—In what way will you deal, from a musical and theatrical point of view, with the love scenes between Jack and Ennis? One thing is to talk about the love of a man for another man and something quite different is a man having sex with another man.
—There will be no sex scenes on the stage in my opera. The love scenes have a dialogue and they are going to be sung. And the musical staging will reflect what they are saying and the emotions that may be read between the lines. There is a moment where there is a musical interlude; they will not be visible then, but they are making love.
—Have you thought about what this kind of experience will be for the public? People who go to the opera are not used to seeing love scenes between men …
—Well, they will have to get used to it.
http://www.emol.com/noticias/ingles/detalle/detallenoticias.asp?idnoticia=354647 (http://www.emol.com/noticias/ingles/detalle/detallenoticias.asp?idnoticia=354647) WARNING-SPOILERS
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Well, they will have to get used to it.
Well said.
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O_M_G!!!!!!!!!!!! They're doin' the opera!! Annie wrote for it..my heart rate just went up. I am way too excited about this. How gorgeous this will be.
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yes, it's thrilling to see she did the libretto. I wonder what new avenues of discussion it will take us down ;) :D >:D
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Hmmm,,,I don't know..how about, who will be the bass, and who the soprano?
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The Opera announcement doesn't specifically mention any plans
to make a film/video recording of the Brokeback Mountain Opera.
Any idea who to contact to ask about film/video recording plans?
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The Opera announcement doesn't specifically mention any plans
to make a film/video recording of the Brokeback Mountain Opera.
Any idea who to contact to ask about film/video recording plans?
You could try Charles Wuorinen's personal representative:
Howard Stokar Management
870 West End Avenue
New York, New York 10025-4918
(212) 866-5798 [telephone]
(212) 666-1538 [fax]
e-mail hstokar@stokar.com (http://hstokar@stokar.com)
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As I've said before, it would be an opera where the two lovers don't sing love songs to each other. That will be a nice trick.
An interesting take on the libretto is the evolution of the SS into the finished film. I don't have a feel for the differences between the SS and the screenplay, but my guess is the dialog was better in the latter. But then when you compare the screenplay w/ the dialog in the film, the latter is always better. Every change they made was an improvement.
So if they can figure out who changed the screenplay's dialog into what you hear on the screen, have that person play w/ the libretto.
But I digress. Probably everyone noticed the two full moons in the movie, on Jack's first night w/ the sheep and at FNIT. A nice way to show it took a month for Jack to fall in love with Ennis. I noticed that the moon is shown at rouglhly the same spot on the screen in both shots. Another nice touch.
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I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. The thought of a BBM Opera to me is horrendous. I associate Gyllenhaal and Ledger too much as Jack and Ennis. If Jake was a brilliant singer maybe but then there is no Heath. Jake And Heath WERE Jack and Ennis. Even AP wrote a note to Heath and called him Ennis, she didnot correct as she said "he was Ennis. Can you imagine other movies with out the spot on casting " Gone with the Wind" Gable and Leigh, "Streetcar named Desire" Brando And Leigh again, "Butch Cassidy and Sundance " Newman and Redford and so many many more. They were so brilliantly cast, so right. I vote no to BBM Opera NO,NO,NO.
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There probably won't be a lot of new information about the opera in the near future, but if anyone is interested, we have a thread for discussion of the opera here:
http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=22452.0 (http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=22452.0)
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Has anyone noticed if the phone changes in the phone booth between Ennis's trips to the Post Office? It's probably too far away to tell in 1967, but I'll look for it next time.
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I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. The thought of a BBM Opera to me is horrendous. I associate Gyllenhaal and Ledger too much as Jack and Ennis. If Jake was a brilliant singer maybe but then there is no Heath. Jake And Heath WERE Jack and Ennis. Even AP wrote a note to Heath and called him Ennis, she didnot correct as she said "he was Ennis. Can you imagine other movies with out the spot on casting " Gone with the Wind" Gable and Leigh, "Streetcar named Desire" Brando And Leigh again, "Butch Cassidy and Sundance " Newman and Redford and so many many more. They were so brilliantly cast, so right. I vote no to BBM Opera NO,NO,NO.
Well, I'm not a fan of opera, so I wouldn't see a BBM opera. However, if they are able to do one well, I don't see why it shouldn't see the light of day.
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This may already have been discussed, but did you notice that A. Proulx, in the Paris Review interview, says that "it’s important to leave spaces in a story for readers to fill in from their own experience". And that shortly after she CLOSES one open space by saying "......after Jack is killed".
I guess that most of us already thought jack was killed in cold blood, but A.P. left it open in the SS, as did Ang Lee in the movie. Now we know.
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I'm not a native speaker, but can't "being killed" also mean killed by accident?
Someone with a better knowledge of English can maybe clarify?
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You're right on Sason! If she had said 'murdered,' we would have known that it was death by tire iron. 'Killed' does not imply a definitive answer.
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Thanks for clarifying that Donna!
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This may already have been discussed, but did you notice that A. Proulx, in the Paris Review interview, says that "it’s important to leave spaces in a story for readers to fill in from their own experience". And that shortly after she CLOSES one open space by saying "......after Jack is killed".
I guess that most of us already thought jack was killed in cold blood, but A.P. left it open in the SS, as did Ang Lee in the movie. Now we know.
Hmm... to me 'is killed' can imply an accident, but if so I would expect it to be qualified, like 'is killed in a car crash' or 'in a fire'. Just on its own does seem to me to indicate 'by somebody'.
But in the SS I've always seen Jack's death as ambiguous, and my personal inclination is that it's the tyre rim.
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My first language isn't English, so forgive me for trying to interpret what A.P said.
I don't know all the connotations of English words, and should not have posted that thing about "killed".
In my language we have numerous words for dying. Some indicate how or why, some are clinical, and some are euphemisms - and often they are used wrongly.
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Hey ForS
I think you raised an interesting question!
No need to apologize!
I wrote you a PM the other day, I'm wondering if you got it?
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Hmm... to me 'is killed' can imply an accident, but if so I would expect it to be qualified, like 'is killed in a car crash' or 'in a fire'. Just on its own does seem to me to indicate 'by somebody'.~
Surely it would be so, were the piece an essay or article. But it was an interview, wasn't it? A little imprecision is normal in extemporaneous speech.
[Besides which, Proulx is the author, and I agree, Jack definitely WAS killed.... by AP herself! Out of sheer necessity, of course. No judge in the world would convict.]
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http://www.nst.com.my/Current_News/NST/Monday/Features/20090504095427/Article/indexpull_html
There are certain connections between Marlboro Classics and the American outdoors
that can’t be shaken off, such as horses, hats, ropes, checkered shirts and boots
— think Heath Ledger and Jake Gyllenhaal in Brokeback Mountain.
-------
Apparently, Brokeback Mountain has become a reference standard for Western Wear.
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Hmm... to me 'is killed' can imply an accident, but if so I would expect it to be qualified, like 'is killed in a car crash' or 'in a fire'. Just on its own does seem to me to indicate 'by somebody'.~
Surely it would be so, were the piece an essay or article. But it was an interview, wasn't it? A little imprecision is normal in extemporaneous speech.
Yes, I agree - I was only musing (never having considered it before) what 'to be killed' would normally convey to me.
Jack definitely WAS killed.... by AP herself! Out of sheer necessity, of course. No judge in the world would convict.
Oh yes :).
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In mid 2006 I ordered the VideoCD version of Brokeback Mountain
from Hong Kong (partially for spite since China banned the movie).
After I found out I could set my older Magnavox DVD player to
convert PAL format DVDs to NTSC (USA TV standard) , I ordered
the UK version of the movie.
Both versions are identical (uncensored) to the USA version (the
UK version plays a little fast though, 129 min. vs 134 min.).
Were/are there censored Home Video versions of the movie
released anywhere in the World?
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http://nymag.com/daily/entertainment/2009/05/eminem_takes_a_crack_at_heath.html
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http://nymag.com/daily/entertainment/2009/05/eminem_takes_a_crack_at_heath.html
http://twitter.com/anderzole/status/1702807290 (http://twitter.com/anderzole/status/1702807290)
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This is an article in the April 2009 Stanford Law Review. The author uses Brokeback Mountain to make points several times in the article.
RACING THE CLOSET
Russell K. Robinson
In the last few years, despite scant empirical support, the media have identified as a primary reason for high HIV rates among black women the phenomenon of black men who live on the “down low” (or DL). Such men are said to maintain primary romantic relationships with women while engaging in secret sexual liaisons with men. Drawing on a perpetrator-victim framework, this discourse pits “deviant” black men who have sex with men (MSM) against “respectable” black women and the broader black community. Yet such media discourse tends to erase structural components that produce high HIV rates and place the blame solely on individuals ripped from their broader social context. By contrast, this Article offers a structural analysis of the issue to reveal governmental and social mechanisms that marginalize black women and black MSM. First, government policies such as mass incarceration shrink the pool of black male partners for black women and black MSM, which impacts individual decision making. Second, black women and black MSM struggle against “romantic segregation,” which assumes that blacks must mate with blacks and fails to examine nonblack men’s relative disinterest in black women and black MSM. Third, the Centers for Disease Control’s early framing of HIV/AIDS as a “gay disease” disadvantaged many black women and nongay-identified black MSM who did not recognize that they were at risk.
Analyzing discourse on the DL is important because it may have implications for criminal and public health law. In response to fears that HIV-positive people recklessly spread disease, more than half the states have passed criminal laws aimed at HIV-positive people who expose sexual partners to a risk of HIV transmission. Like the DL discourse, these laws understand HIV transmission through a crude lens of perpetrators and victims. Actual dynamics in sexual relationships tend to be far more complex and resistant to regulation by the criminal law, which helps explain the minimal number of prosecutions brought under these laws. Instead of relying on a criminal law model to reduce HIV transmission, I call for structural solutions, which may channel individual sexual behavior in productive ways, without directly regulating it.
The media and the public have applied an insidious racialized double standard to black and white men who engage in similar conduct. The black men who are depicted as having secret sex behind their wives’ backs in DL discourse horrify us, yet we see Ennis and Jack, the star-crossed lovers in the Oscar-nominated, box office hit Brokeback Mountain, as victims of the closet. When Governor Jim McGreevey came out as a “gay American,” the empathy that the public felt for his wife Dina did not require casting Jim as a villain. Thus, an important point of this Article is that we attend to our tendency to frame black and white men through radically disparate lenses even when they engage in the same underlying conduct. Juxtaposing what I call “white men on the down low” against the stories of all-black depravity featured in DL discourse makes apparent that these media stories race the closet.
Full article here: (73 pages)
http://lawreview.stanford.edu/content/vol61/issue6/Robinson.pdf (http://lawreview.stanford.edu/content/vol61/issue6/Robinson.pdf)
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Te most insulting thing that strikes me is to be labled "deviant" in the first place.
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(quoted) Second, black women and black MSM struggle against “romantic segregation,” which assumes that blacks must mate with blacks and fails to examine nonblack men’s relative disinterest in black women and black MSM.
Well, now they've identified the problem: those "nonblack men" are just being derelict in their sacred duty to have sex with politically correct partners. Where do law schools dig up these writers?
I'll reserve judgment until I get to read more of the article; but frankly, this reads like unintentional parody so far.
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http://www.news.com.au/entertainment/story/0,28383,25599702-7484,00.html
Eskimo Joe write Foreign Land as a tribute to Heath Ledger
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I came across this somewhere (I can't find the link now) on the net today
and thought it was interesting.
This evening, I was watching "From Here to Eternity" on TCM. In that
movie, Montgomery Clift is a soldier. He meets a woman (Donna Reed)
who works in a dance hall that is frequented by soldiers.
The woman's name is Lureen, which I found rather curious, since Lureen
is not a common name. She tells Clift that Lureen is not her real name,
but a name that was given to her by the owner of the place. Her real
name is Alma!
I looked it up and the character's name is actually spelled Lorene, but I
still think it's interesting. Watching the film you wouldn't notice a
difference in the pronunciation.
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On the subject of Momtgomery Clift, we watched "Red River" last week, and thought his performance in it was one of the few from a young actor in many, many years that came anywhere near the level achieved by Heath Ledger as Ennis del Mar in Brokeback Mountain.
Perhaps there is only one every 50 or 60 years!
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Ang Lee pics get retrospective
The Film Society of Lincoln Center will host a complete feature film retrospective of Oscar-winning director Ang Lee from Aug. 1-11.
The retrospective, "Intimate Views from Afar: the Films of Ang Lee," will feature a live Q&A appearance by the director as well as longtime collaborator James Schamus, a screenwriter and producer on many of Lee's films.
The 11-day retrospective will kick off with Lee's 1993 breakout film "The Wedding Banquet" and conclude with screenings of both "Brokeback Mountain" and "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon."
http://www.variety.com/article/VR1118005933.html?categoryId=13&cs=1 (http://www.variety.com/article/VR1118005933.html?categoryId=13&cs=1)
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New review from a bloger in Kolkata
Brokeback Mountain
Somehow, I had missed Brokeback Mountain when the world seemed to be enraptured by it, and so after a conversation with a friend I finally sat down to it.
After the first watch, all that remained of the movie was a collection of images and a realization that never before had I been so utterly moved by a love story, for that is what it is, titles of a gay cowboy movie be damned. It is the story of a shared love, love that is not once called love through a lifetime, because it yet does not know its own name and also perhaps because it is denied by its own preperator.
The second watch still left me dazed , the sheer power of Lee's imagery is incalculable. Jack and Ennis barely speak, their dialogues, especially Ennis' are at a bare minimum and yet they wash you totally with a deep, gnawing, longing.
After the third watch to-night, I think I can finally begin to understand the different layers on which this movie is fleshed out.
What is truly heartbreaking is Ennis' tragedy of not knowing himself, He is as stoic as the mountains among which he had come to love, and in his confusion he has learnt to lock himself within his eyes that do not once overflow. He is unconnected and out of sync with the world, and in his happiness with Jack we discover his vast pain. It's not easy being different, and Ennis' difference nearly bleeds him out. 'Its a film about hearts - broken or otherwise. It's pure romance.'
There is something forlorn and broken about Ennis even as we see him in the opening scene, and he walks with a head bent forward, weight on his sturdy shoulders, all his worldly possessions in a brown paper bag. The brown paper bag would re-surface at the end, when again, he carries all that he has in this world in a brown paper bag- Two shirts, remnant of the only love he had ever experienced .
more......
http://sayrem.blogspot.com/2009/07/somehow-i-had-missed-brokeback-mountain.html (http://sayrem.blogspot.com/2009/07/somehow-i-had-missed-brokeback-mountain.html)
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That gets right to the heart of it. And perhaps Incognita's reply in the blog will bring a new Brokie to the Forum :).
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Incognita aka Lovelyamazing emailed him apart from the comment and he replied. He has joined already.
sayrem is his name
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Good for you, Maya.
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Good for you, Maya.
Good for us Sara!!!! :) :) :)
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Sayrem described the feelings he had, (we all had), so well. Well done Maya.
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John found him Jess :) :)
He has a beautiful blog.
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On the subject of Momtgomery Clift, we watched "Red River" last week, and thought his performance in it was one of the few from a young actor in many, many years that came anywhere near the level achieved by Heath Ledger as Ennis del Mar in Brokeback Mountain.
Perhaps there is only one every 50 or 60 years!
RED RIVER is one of my all time favorite films, Jess.
Monty Clift looks so beautiful.
I also love the cinematography and art direction.
Love Clift's perfornamce as well as John Wayne's.
Also love John Ireland (I think this is the film in which he met Joanne Dru, who plays the object of Clift's affections, and later married her.)
There's a funny scene in which Ireland caresses his gun which is a trifle odd.
Love the scene near the begiinning as the cowboys shout to start the cattle moving and the music swells in the background.
Cowboy bliss for a little girl growing up on the lower east side of NYC. ;D
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RED RIVER is one of my all time favorite films, Jess.
There's a funny scene in which Ireland caresses his gun which is a trifle odd.
Actually it has be argued that there is quite a bit of homoerotic subtext in several of the scenes in "Red River".
The scene you mention also includes that rather bizarre "I'll show you my gun if you'll show me yours" (paraphrase) dialogue.
In addition there is all that cigarette rolling and saliva swapping.
Clifts' "eating a blade of grass" scene.
And then there is Dru's big third act "see everyone knows you love one another" line.
And finally, the "brand" is of a "D" and an "M". The D representing Wayne's character's last name and the "M'
representing Clifts' character's first name. (Matt)
None of it adds up to much as far as I am concerned but many would disagree.
Of course, homoerotic subtext in several of Howard Hawks' films has been
discussed for years, I guess.
Everything from "Bringing Up Baby" in which Cary Grant inexplicably exclaims he is "gay",
(Legend has it this is an ad-lib on the part of Grant),
to Jane Russell's rendition of "Ain't There Anyone Here for Love" which she sings
to a chorus of rather odd "bodybuilders". This scene is SO totally homoerotic blatant that
for years it was cut from television broadcasts of the film.
Hawks did not "direct" any of the musical/dance segments of "Gentleman Prefer Blondes" however.
Jack Cole did and he and Gwen Verdon did the choreography.
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how did you come across my blog in the first place john ???
New review from a bloger in Kolkata
Brokeback Mountain
Somehow, I had missed Brokeback Mountain when the world seemed to be enraptured by it, and so after a conversation with a friend I finally sat down to it.
After the first watch, all that remained of the movie was a collection of images and a realization that never before had I been so utterly moved by a love story, for that is what it is, titles of a gay cowboy movie be damned. It is the story of a shared love, love that is not once called love through a lifetime, because it yet does not know its own name and also perhaps because it is denied by its own preperator.
The second watch still left me dazed , the sheer power of Lee's imagery is incalculable. Jack and Ennis barely speak, their dialogues, especially Ennis' are at a bare minimum and yet they wash you totally with a deep, gnawing, longing.
After the third watch to-night, I think I can finally begin to understand the different layers on which this movie is fleshed out.
What is truly heartbreaking is Ennis' tragedy of not knowing himself, He is as stoic as the mountains among which he had come to love, and in his confusion he has learnt to lock himself within his eyes that do not once overflow. He is unconnected and out of sync with the world, and in his happiness with Jack we discover his vast pain. It's not easy being different, and Ennis' difference nearly bleeds him out. 'Its a film about hearts - broken or otherwise. It's pure romance.'
There is something forlorn and broken about Ennis even as we see him in the opening scene, and he walks with a head bent forward, weight on his sturdy shoulders, all his worldly possessions in a brown paper bag. The brown paper bag would re-surface at the end, when again, he carries all that he has in this world in a brown paper bag- Two shirts, remnant of the only love he had ever experienced .
more......
http://sayrem.blogspot.com/2009/07/somehow-i-had-missed-brokeback-mountain.html (http://sayrem.blogspot.com/2009/07/somehow-i-had-missed-brokeback-mountain.html)
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Hello Disisme and Welcome aboard.
I was going to ask John the same question ;D
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A big welcome from me, Disisyou :D. Look forward to your posts.
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And me. We have only had LovelyAmazing, (and she is), in Kolkata before, and I know she will appreciate another member from her home city.
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how did you come across my blog in the first place john ???
Welcome to the forum.
I found your blog by doing a Google search of "Brokeback Mountain" and sorting the results by date.
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I found this from a blogger in the Philippines today
Nino Manaog
Bikolandia, Filipinas
The beauty of the unexpressed
To most people, nothing seems more beautiful than the drama of the repressed, the beauty of the unexpressed.
WITH “BROKEBACK MOUNTAIN,” film director Ang Lee presents himself as a symbolist, a minimalist, and a lot more.
Based on Annie Proulx’s Pulitzer-winning novel, “Brokeback Mountain” is an apt label for Lee’s masterpiece on how the lives of two cowboys—the tightlipped Ennis del Mar and the rodeo-loving Jack Twist—are made meaningful and even tragic by their summer experience in the wild. In Brokeback Mountain, the two cowboys have their own Walden experience, or epiphanies—something that they will hold on to for the rest of their lives—but that later turns out to be against social conventions, a dilemma to resolve that it makes tragic heroes out of them.
AS A SYMBOLIST, Ang Lee shows so much by concealing many things. Ennis del Mar’s restrained affectation for his friend Jack Twist with whom he shares a steamy summer in 1963 predominantly figures in the end as tragedy.
A plethora of symbols prevails in the masterpiece. First, the sheep being tended by the two cowboys are the juxtaposition for Ennis del Mar, one whose restraint and silence seems the most deafening to all the other characters. The meekness of the sheep being tended by the two main characters delineates Ennis’ inability to articulate his own preference, living in an otherwise homophobic society. Like the sheep feasted on by the obscure [the unseen social ridicule] wolves, Ennis del Mar confines himself to avoid the stigma from his outward relationship with another man.
more..........
http://ninomanaog.blogspot.com/2009/07/beauty-of-unexpressed.html (http://ninomanaog.blogspot.com/2009/07/beauty-of-unexpressed.html)
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'The beauty of the unexpressed.'
Perfectly expressed.
Sometimes it takes a newcomer to the field to coin an absolutely gorgeous phrase.
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Actually it has be argued that there is quite a bit of homoerotic subtext in several of the scenes in "Red River".
The scene you mention also includes that rather bizarre "I'll show you my gun if you'll show me yours" (paraphrase) dialogue.
In addition there is all that cigarette rolling and saliva swapping.
Clifts' "eating a blade of grass" scene.
And then there is Dru's big third act "see everyone knows you love one another" line.
And finally, the "brand" is of a "D" and an "M". The D representing Wayne's character's last name and the "M'
representing Clifts' character's first name. (Matt)
None of it adds up to much as far as I am concerned but many would disagree.
Of course, homoerotic subtext in several of Howard Hawks' films has been
discussed for years, I guess.
Everything from "Bringing Up Baby" in which Cary Grant inexplicably exclaims he is "gay",
(Legend has it this is an ad-lib on the part of Grant),
to Jane Russell's rendition of "Ain't There Anyone Here for Love" which she sings
to a chorus of rather odd "bodybuilders". This scene is SO totally homoerotic blatant that
for years it was cut from television broadcasts of the film.
Hawks did not "direct" any of the musical/dance segments of "Gentleman Prefer Blondes" however.
Jack Cole did and he and Gwen Verdon did the choreography.
I thought there was quite a lot of homoerotic subtext to "Red River" too. I will watch it again when I can and try a little further analysis in view of your thoughts on the matter.
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Has Topic of the Week been discontinued?
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No, Topic of the week will continue, it's just that due to a lot of people being on holiday (including Chuck and myself) we thought we could let it slide for a week. Normal service will continue when the rabble get back to their respective cubicles ;D
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No, Topic of the week will continue, it's just that due to a lot of people being on holiday (including Chuck and myself) we thought we could let it slide for a week. Normal service will continue when the rabble get back to their respective cubicles ;D
So, after 45 weeks of TOTW, now we KNOW what "WITHDRAWAL" feels like ... ?! :P :P :P
(To: S&I folks: -- Please, "don't go there"-LOL) >:D ;D
-Az
P.S. I just noticed that I'm officially "Obsessed" ?!
Well, the beers are on me! 8) 8) 8)
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Well done Az, as long as it's not 6 6 6
PS mine's a pint (of dry martini)
(https://ultimatebrokebackforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi62.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fh95%2Fnaxman_photos%2FBBM%2Fes.jpg&hash=804cb311762397688c944b38c632dbf873f48851)
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Thanks, NAX,
Just name your "poison" !!! >:D ;D
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Thanks, NAX,
Just name your "poison" !!! >:D ;D
Electric soup (as below)
Margaritas
Single malt Whisky (Isle of Islay for preference)
Beer (bitter or Belgian Trapist)
0
So many poisons ;D (getting off topic here! perhaps we should start a "What's your poison" thread...mmmm off to "Start your own threads" meet me there ::)
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Electric soup (as below)
Margaritas
Single malt Whisky (Isle of Islay for preference)
Beer (bitter or Belgian Trapist)
0
So many poisons ;D (getting off topic here! perhaps we should start a "What's your poison" thread...mmmm off to "Start your own threads" meet me there ::)
wow, nax is quick!
http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=37046.msg1635839#new
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As we know Ennis and Jack were of the same age. Jack mentioned the army on his goodbye to Ennis after coming down off Brokeback . He must have gone for his medical as he said " he was too busted up" for the army to be interested in him. In the reading of the book and the viewing of the film Ennis was A1 fit so how come he was never drafted?? ( hypothetical question)
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Married with children.
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Don't they get drafted in USA then if married with children? Didn't know that. Was the Vietnam War going on then? I thought they drafted as many as they could for that?
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Don't they get drafted in USA then if married with children? Didn't know that. Was the Vietnam War going on then? I thought they drafted as many as they could for that?
There was a deferement, III-A: "Registrant with a child or children; registrant deferred by reason of extreme hardship to dependents"
There was a deferrment for being married from 1948 thru 1956. In 1956 the deferement was changed to exclude married men without children.
in 1963, Kennedy signed an order stating that "All fathers with a bona-fide paternity relationship " would be deferred, This included unmarried men.
Men who were married after Aug 26, 1965 lost any preferential deferment.
Nixon signed an order that eliminated the paternity deferment for fathers of children conceived after April 23, 1970
As of May 23, 1973 marital status no longer affects draft availability.
another possible deferment could have been II-C: "Registrant deferred because of agricultural occupation"
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another possible deferment could have been II-C: "Registrant deferred because of agricultural occupation"
And another possibility:
"Ennis, high-arched nose and narrow face, was scruffy and a little cave-chested, balanced a small torso on long, calipered legs, possessed a muscular and supple body made for the horse and for fighting. His reflexes were uncommonly quick, and he was far-sighted enough to dislike reading anything except Hamley's saddle catalog."
He was far-sighted, sometimes a medical disqualifier, depending on how bad the army needs men.
Annie had that covered from the get-go.
~~~fia
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There was a deferement, III-A: "Registrant with a child or children; registrant deferred by reason of extreme hardship to dependents"
There was a deferrment for being married from 1948 thru 1956. In 1956 the deferement was changed to exclude married men without children.
in 1963, Kennedy signed an order stating that "All fathers with a bona-fide paternity relationship " would be deferred, This included unmarried men.
Men who were married after Aug 26, 1965 lost any preferential deferment.
Nixon signed an order that eliminated the paternity deferment for fathers of children conceived after April 23, 1970
As of May 23, 1973 marital status no longer affects draft availability.
another possible deferment could have been II-C: "Registrant deferred because of agricultural occupation"
wow thanks for this --
I had always wondered why Jack was worried about the army, but Ennis wasn't worried.
I don't know if they had the "lottery" draft numbers then. Some guys knew they were more likely to be drafted.
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Thanks for the info BCG.Ihad forgotten I had done this post.
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I don't know if they had the "lottery" draft numbers then.
They didn't yet. First one was in '68 or '9. The numbers were announcered over the radio, that first year. I believe the ratings were high for that show.
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Hiya everyone!
There's a new poll that asks "What's The Best Movie Drama of the Decade".
Brokeback is on the list, and it's in last place. Of course, the site hosting the poll is ESPN, a man's sports network.
:D :D :D
If you want to help boost BBM's numbers, click the link to vote!
http://sports.espn.go.com/espnradio/poll?event_id=3871
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Don't they get drafted in USA then if married with children? Didn't know that. Was the Vietnam War going on then? I thought they drafted as many as they could for that?
In 1967, seven of the straight guys in my home town got married in one month (coincidentally, August) successfully avoiding the draft, staying out of Viet Nam.
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Notre Dame University
CONGRATULATIONS TO OUR 2009 GENDER STUDIES
UNDERGRADUATE WRITING AWARD RECIPIENTS
Philip L. Quinn Essay Prize
- Megan Baker ‘09
Majors: English and Film, Television and Theatre
“‘Everyone has their own Brokeback Mountain’: Negotiating the Radical and the Mainstream”
These diverse responses to Brokeback Mountain attest to the multiple meanings at work
in the film. Comments like Joe’s, Estella’s, and Larry’s are illustrative examples of how
Brokeback’s viewers can approach the various negotiations of its elements and produce their
own interpretations of its significance. To declare that the film is “not gay,” “too gay,” or
anything else in between is to completely ignore Brokeback’s work against firm and fixed
categories. By blending conventional form with an unconventional subject, mixing the generic
codes of the Western and the melodrama, and uniting the aggressiveness and tenderness of gay
male desire, Ang Lee is able make a progressive case without isolating any audience. Straight
women can weep over Brokeback like they did over Titanic. Lesbian women can relate it to their
own experiences. Straight men can identify with the cowboys’ rough masculinity. Gay men can
identify with the intensity of Jack and Ennis’ love. Brokeback speaks to universal themes;
Brokeback speaks to more specific struggles.
In its resistance to being any one thing, it becomes many different things for many different viewers.
The mainstream does not own Brokeback, for “everyone has their own.”
http://www.nd.edu/~gender/awards/documents/MBakerBrokeback.pdf (http://www.nd.edu/~gender/awards/documents/MBakerBrokeback.pdf)
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Does anyone know who had the idea of the iconic publicity design of the faces of Ennis and Jack that is used on everything appertaining to BBM??
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Maybe the same people who did the Titanic poster?
(https://ultimatebrokebackforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi275.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fjj282%2FSanFranciscoJohn%2Fbrokeback_titanic.jpg&hash=27f1e46cb467dddf21429344189a8782f9ff3899)
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Funny how when I watch Titanic, I always hope the ship misses the iceberg ... just like I hope the BBM postcard doesn't say 'DECEASED.'
Unfortunately, it never works.
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Brokeback Poster not a Titanic Accident
When it came time to design the poster for the film, [co-president of Focus Features and frequent Lee collaborator James] Schamus didn't research posters of famous Westerns for ideas. He looked at the posters of the 50 most romantic movies ever made. "If you look at our poster," he says, "you can see traces of our inspiration, 'Titanic'."
The posters, pictured above, reveal more than just "traces" of similarity; they are nearly matching sets of pretty young matinee idols in love, all long lashes pointing meaningfully to the ground and chins nuzzled longingly onto shoulders. Indeed, even the bough of the Titanic is echoed in size and shape to Heath's denim-clad, sturdy left arm.
http://defamer.gawker.com/hollywood/brokeback-mountain/jake-and-heath-their-love-will-go-on-137271.php (http://defamer.gawker.com/hollywood/brokeback-mountain/jake-and-heath-their-love-will-go-on-137271.php)
The original Newsweek article has been moved:
http://www.newsweek.com/id/51191/page/2 (http://www.newsweek.com/id/51191/page/2)
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(https://ultimatebrokebackforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi275.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fjj282%2FSanFranciscoJohn%2FBrokeback%2FBBMThesis0609.jpg&hash=e23e6b2fba67fe7a8649e63493087fa70339bda3)
Title: Visual Effects and the Test of Time
Author: Wagener, Thomas Dane Degree Bachelor of Science of Media Arts and Studies (BSC), Ohio University Honors Tutorial College, Media Arts and Studies, 2009.
Committee / Advisors: Beth Novak MFA (Advisor)
Arthur Cromwell PhD (Other)
Pages 114p.
Abstract:
This thesis discusses why certain visual effects films stand the test of time, while others do not. Some films' effects become outdated very quickly, even within a year, regardless of how critically and popularly acclaimed they were upon their release. Yet others, like Jurassic Park, remain effective over a decade later. I analyzed 10 films, covering both "good" and "bad" effects films, as well as a wide variety of different types of effects films : Jurassic Park, Forrest Gump, The Day After Tomorrow, Transformers, The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King, The Chronicles of Narnia: The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe, Brokeback Mountain, The Bucket List, Children of Men, and War of the Worlds. Through my analysis, I discuss the importance of matchmoving, compositing, controlled scale of effects, as well as the role of cinematography in visual effects, and most importantly, the critical role of story.
The thesis also includes a short history of special and visual effects, including the all-important Digital Revolution of effects films.
Preview
(https://ultimatebrokebackforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi275.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fjj282%2FSanFranciscoJohn%2FBrokeback%2FBBMThesis0609a.jpg&hash=302699884ff578034dbb05e3d9bdfa848ede41ce)
http://www.ohiolink.edu/etd/send-pdf.cgi/Wagener%20Thomas%20Dane.pdf?acc_num=ouhonors1244204910 (http://www.ohiolink.edu/etd/send-pdf.cgi/Wagener%20Thomas%20Dane.pdf?acc_num=ouhonors1244204910)
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Thanks BCJ for all the info. To tell you the truth I never paid too much attention to the film "Titanic" and cannot recall seeing a poster of it at all. Yea,Yea,I know.....what planet am I on!!!. Therefore never noticed the similarities.
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I never saw Titanic when it was in the theaters, so I never saw the poster either.
Now that I see it I can really see the similarities.
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Brokeback is a much better film though!
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Brokeback is a much better film than any film!!
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Sonja, I think you might have a point there!
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:D
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Bets film. Best actors. Best location. What more can we say!!!!
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http://www.skibrokeback.com
I just found this with Google,
it may have existed since 2006.
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Homoeroticism’s Poet Pioneer
Daniel Mendelsohn documents the mid-life emergence of C.P. Cavafy’s modern queer voice
The simultaneous publication by Knopf of two new translations of the poetry of Constantine Cavafy is a literary event of major importance and for queer readers a particular cause for rejoicing, for these twin volumes should help solidify Cavafy’s stature as one of the great poets of the 20th century. It also provides striking confirmation that he wrote some of the greatest homoerotic poems of all time.
I say “20th century” because, even though Cavafy — who was born in 1863 and died in 1933— spent more than half his life in the 19th century, his finest poems, and those for which he is today best remembered, were all written or revised after 1900; that work represented a remarkable and still somewhat mysterious mid-life transformation of a decent, middling poet into a preeminent one. And because the influential, spare, controlled free verse that flowed from his pen after his reincarnation is so modern, it could have been written yesterday. Even the great W. H. Auden confessed his debt to Cavafy, when he wrote, “I can think of poems which, if Cavafy were unknown to me, I should have written quite differently, or perhaps not written at all.”
“C.P. Cavafy: Collected Poems” and “C.P. Cavafy: The Unfinished Poems” are both the work of the excellent Daniel Mendelsohn, who translated them and provides extensive introductions and commentaries. A Princeton-trained classicist who teaches at Bard, Mendelsohn is best known to queer readers as the author of the original and stimulating memoir-cum-cultural commentary “An Elusive Embrace: Desire and the Riddle of Identity,” which refracted his own queer experiences through the prism of Greek mythology. Although criticized by some sex-negative hetero reviewers for being replete with accounts of his own erotic adventures, “An Elusive Embrace” was a New York Times Notable Book and a Los Angeles Times Best Book of the Year.
Among his other works, last year Mendelsohn published “How Beautiful It Is and How Easily It Can Be Broken” (Harper), a collection of his scintillating literary and film essays from the New York Review of Books, including his right-on contrarian challenge to the convention that “Brokeback Mountain” was about love in general, and not just gay love. Mendelsohn argued that to believe that the “normality” of the two main characters takes them beyond their gayness is to imply that gayness makes them something other than normal.
With Cavafy’s ”Unfinished Poems,” Mendelsohn brings us the very first English translation of a cache of some 30 poems from Cavafy’s later years that remained hidden for three decades after his death, and includes such gems as the defense of same-sex love in “The Photograph” (1924):
Looking at the photograph of a chum of his,
at his beautiful youthful face
that forever more; — the photograph
was dated ‘Ninety-two,
the sadness of what passes came upon him.
But he draws comfort from the fact that at least
he didn’t let — they didn’t let any foolish shame
get in the way of their love, or make it ugly.
To the “degenerates,” “obscene” of the imbeciles
their sensual sensibility paid no heed.
http://gaycitynews.com/articles/2009/09/21/gay_city_news/editors_latest/doc4ab287d7c0317856592549.txt (http://gaycitynews.com/articles/2009/09/21/gay_city_news/editors_latest/doc4ab287d7c0317856592549.txt)
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http://www.film.com/features/story/best-male-performance-00s-final/30219710
"Vote early and often, voting ends on Wednesday, September 30 at noon PST."
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Spaces of Desire: Liminality and Abjection in Brokeback Mountain
by Fran Pheasant-Kelly
Analyses of Ang Lee’s Brokeback Mountain (2005) inevitably centre on the sexuality of its two male protagonists or the relationship between the film and the Western genre. Other studies focus on the aesthetics of its cinematography, particularly that of its lush panoramic vistas. Since the mountain itself functions as metaphor for the relationship between the two central protagonists, there is also commentary on the association between the landscape and sexuality. The often-primal nature of the mountain creates obvious opportunities for psychoanalytical readings in relation to sexuality. Occasionally, such readings implicate Julia Kristeva’s (1982) work, Powers of Horror, interpreting the instinctual and visceral aspects of Brokeback Mountain as abject.
This article extends these psychoanalytical readings, but, rather than focusing on the visceral aspects of the body as other studies have done, it refers to abjection in relation to subjectivity and space. It also draws upon David Sibley’s (1995) Geographies of Exclusion, negotiating the ambiguous nature of urban, interior, and borderland spaces evident within the film. It thus correlates the various settings with aspects of sexual identity, and proposes a relationship between desire, space, and abjection.
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Introduction
Brokeback Mountain (2005) follows the relationship that develops between two men, Ennis Del Mar (Heath Ledger) and Jack Twist (Jake Gyllenhaal). While their first sexual encounters take place in the outback area where the two men work, the film traces the ways in which they subsequently repress their mutual feelings within the homophobic small town environments in which they live; in spite of this, however, they maintain their friendship, intermittently reuniting at Brokeback Mountain.
Since this film centres on two ranch hands and is partly set in the wilderness, critical analysis inevitably tends to consider its relationship to the Western genre (Kitses, 2007; Spohrer, 2009). Often, attention focuses on the spaces of the film in relation to the binary oppositions commonly associated with the Western, such as that of civilisation and wilderness. Other studies examine representations of masculinity or homosexuality within the film (Barounis, 2009; Benshoff and Griffin, 2009; Boucher and Pinto, 2007; Harris 2007; McDonald, 2007; Perez, 2007). As the setting of Brokeback Mountain functions as metaphor for the homosexual relationship of the two protagonists, there is also commentary on the association between the landscape and their sexuality (Boyle, 2007; Todd, 2009). The primal nature of the mountain creates obvious opportunities for psychoanalytical readings in relation to sexuality. Occasionally, psychoanalytical readings implicate Kristeva’s notion of abjection (1982) in the social and cultural spaces of the film. For example, Ian Todd (2009) examines abjection in relation to the inside/outside dialectic of the homosexual ‘closet’. He further assigns Brokeback Mountain as abject because of its scenes of bodily transgression and violation. This article also textually analyses Brokeback Mountain with reference to Kristeva’s theory of abjection but extends these psychoanalytical readings. Firstly, it explores abjection in relation to subjectivity rather than focusing solely on its visceral aspects. Secondly, it draws upon Sibley’s (1995) Geographies of Exclusion (itself derived from Kristeva’s work) and his concept of ‘liminal zones’, negotiating the indeterminate nature of domestic interiors and small town space that the film presents. This re-reading of abjection within the film therefore correlates sexuality with setting, exploring the relationship between desire, space, and abjection. It suggests that Brokeback Mountain visually and narratively prioritises certain spaces, and organises them in a dialectical relationship that reflects aspects of homosexuality and its repression.
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full article...
http://www.jgcinema.org/pages/view.php?cat=articoli_dossier&id=374&id_film=164&id_dossier=22 (http://www.jgcinema.org/pages/view.php?cat=articoli_dossier&id=374&id_film=164&id_dossier=22)
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Preserving Our Queer Legacy
The remarks below were delivered by Alan Poul upon receiving the Legacy Award at Wednesday night's (9/30) benefit for the Outfest Legacy Project at the Directors Guild of America. Outfest is Los Angeles' Gay and Lesbian Film Festival, and the Legacy Project is dedicated to the preservation and archiving of LGBT material. Poul was introduced by Laura Linney, with whom he worked on the three miniseries based on Armistead Maupin's "Tales of the City" books.
I was struck by the cover story in last Sunday's New York Times Magazine. In it, Benoit Denizet-Lewis chronicles the coming-out stories of middle school children in middle-America -- 14 and 15-year-olds in Oklahoma and Michigan -- and their fearlessness in announcing their sexual identity to parents and peers, even when many of them are not yet sexually active. Of course the Internet is the key component here: think you're a total misfit? Search and click on a link, and whoa! there's another person just like you. (I could have used that.)
But let's not underestimate the potency of complex narrative images, of LGBT lives portrayed with depth, with artistry, and with authenticity, in empowering and legitimizing young people to accept themselves.
When I was a kid, there was no such thing. My generation remembers desperately searching for images that would speak to the desires we were aware of from such an early age, and coming up with nothing -- at least, nothing that didn't end with Shirley MacLaine hanging herself. On television, we had to apply our own private decoder rings to relationships that hinted at something more than mere friendship -- to Felix and Oscar, to Laverne and Shirley, to the Skipper and Gilligan, with the Professor as an occasional third. It wasn't until I hit my teens in the seventies that genuine homoerotic images began to surface, and the first ones I saw were burned into my eyelids -- the Peter Finch/Murray Head kiss in "Sunday Bloody Sunday," at which my suburban Philadelphia audience recoiled in disgust; the careful, sweet embrace of two English boarding school students in Lindsay Anderson's "If....", the mutual groping of Barbara Hershey that Richard Thomas and Bruce Davison so enjoyed in "Last Summer."
These images were an inspiration and a life raft for me, and I want to protect them forever, even if they won't mean anything to most 13-year-olds today. There is a connection between the bravery it takes to come out, at any age, and our responsibility to preserve and restore LGBT imagery wherever we find it. It might not be direct -- it's unlikely that a self-doubting, tortured 13-year-old is going to find the strength to come out by watching "Sunday Bloody Sunday," or even "Parting Glances." But there's a link, and as we know, links are how we get our information these days. Link to link to link, we are creating a context for our visual and narrative history where until recently there was none. Somewhere there's a 13-year-old who'll appreciate these films, and I want him or her to have that access. That's why we archive.
My history with Outfest is long and happy. I joined the board in 1996, during a period when the festival was beginning its transition from a smaller, activist-oriented gathering to the huge, inclusive, industry-friendly celebration it has become. During my tenure, we saw the first great flowering of gay independent cinema, here and abroad, and Outfest films from those years include such landmarks as Lukas Moodysson's "Show Me Love," Tommy O'Haver's "Billy's Hollywood Screen Kiss," David Moreton's "Edge of Seventeen," Douglas Keeve's "Unzipped," John Greyson's "Lilies," Randy Barbato and Fenton Bailey's "Party Monster," Jeff Dupre's "Out of the Past," Michael Cuesta's "L.I.E.," Sandi Dubowski's "Trembling Before G-d," Cheryl Dunye's "The Watermelon Woman," and many others that have gone on to become classics -- and not just gay classics at that. I'm so proud of that list.
Our board helped shape Outfest, but even more, Outfest shaped my consciousness of what Los Angeles can be. More than any prior event, Outfest brought together the very diverse and often segregated LGBT communities of L.A. under one roof and gave us a chance to look at each other, to enjoy the same entertainment, to laugh and cry together, and to realize our combined strength. In a city that seems custom-designed for isolation and cliquishness, that was no mean feat.
I am currently developing a pilot for HBO, together with Carolyn Strauss, Lily Tomlin, Jane Wagner, John Hoffman, and Peggy Healey, based on the famous Ann Bannon novels of the 1950's. These were lesbian pulp fiction paperbacks, surprisingly popular in their day, with titles like "Odd Girl Out" and "Women in the Shadows." In doing research for the period, we are constantly hampered by the paucity of filmed material. Every frame of what exists must be preserved, and it's part of the mission of the Legacy Project, in managing the fabled One Foundation archives and other private archives which comprise home movies and other personal materials, that is so crucial in this area. Once this stuff decomposes, it's gone, and so is our history.
The word "legacy" is fraught with self-importance, but let's consider what it really means. A legacy is, simply, that which is handed down. Our own legacy, 50 years from now, is likely to consist largely of the narrative content that we are creating now, in our time. Yes, reality TV is full of fully-drawn gay characters, but, as everyone knows, reality doesn't repeat well. 50 years from now it's unlikely people will be watching the exploits of Christian Siriano. For better or worse, narrative fiction has the edge on shelf life. It's the record of the context of our times which we consciously create. "Milk" will last forever. "Brokeback" will last forever. Richard Hatch will not.
Read more at: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alan-poul/preserving-our-queer-lega_b_311511.html
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Shepherding Romance
Reviving the Politics of Romantic Love in Brokeback Mountain
By BARBARA KOZIAK
[1] The recent film, Brokeback Mountain, directed by Ang Lee and based on Annie Proulx’s short story, received an overwhelmingly admiring response from newspaper and magazine film critics, won a series of prominent film awards, and roused a large, fervent fan base. Several large on-line discussion forums created in the months following the film’s release analyze every scene, symbol, and character, and remain to this day communities with interests that have expanded beyond the film. Coinciding with the emergence of You Tube and a new amateur video culture, fan enthusiasm created both lyrical tributes and hilarious parodies on video websites. A mini-Brokeback tourist industry emerged, with one website devoting itself to mapping and photographing every shooting location for every scene. These web-based responses culminated in net-generated cultural activism and even the popular naming of a new syndrome, “Brokeback Mountain Fever.”
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[34] In the end, what has elicited so many fans is certainly the deliberately etched romance narrative, and the density of the characterization, locale, and geography, that repay extensive interpretation and analysis. It is also that combination of longing and grief, a communal experience of grief for two characters, which has affected viewers. Many people reported being sleepless the night after first seeing the film, going back to see it again and again, with each viewing revealing different dimensions, and for weeks finding themselves tossed by waves of grief as though they themselves were unrequitedly in love. The desire to understand the experience drove many to seek out forums to share the experience. “Brokeback got us good,” Jack’s line to Ennis, would be the byline for the forums. The heart of the “Ultimate Brokeback Forum” community (http://davecullen.com/forum), the largest forum, with over 7,000 registered members, resides in the topic threads devoted to every imaginable aspect of the film—every significant scene has its own topic; separate threads are devoted to, for example, symbolism, music, to every actor, and to “Brokeback Mountain Fever Support” and “How Brokeback Affected Me.” Although other forums exist, including www.ennisjack.com, with more than 4,000 members, community.livejournal.com/wranglers, principally a slash forum for posting new writing that incorporates the original characters, with more than 2,000 members, and www.bettermost.net/forum, with 1200 members. The David Cullen forum is the largest and the most active on a variety of fronts. The community this forum created engaged in varied actions to recognize and disseminate the power of Brokeback, first by using small donations to pay for an advertisement run in the trade newspaper, Variety, reminding readers that even after the surprise Oscar loss, it was the most honored movie of the year. Next, a campaign was launched to have members donate copies of the DVD to U.S. public libraries, especially rural libraries. Finally, with volunteer editors, the group recently published Beyond Brokeback, a book compilation of the best forum posts about the personal effects of the film (Ultimate Brokeback Forum).
[35] The book in particular evinces the impact of the film as a romantic love story, but also as a galvanizer of personal and political action. While forum participants are a self-selected group and their posts were further selected by volunteer editors, the book's pieces reflect the extraordinary combination of personal, emotional, and political transformation and engagement incited by the film. The effect crossed sexualities of gay, straight, bisexual, or ambiguous, and some were inspired to search out old friends and lovers while others were inspired to quit jobs or seek therapy. The most common general understanding of the film viewed it as a warning to those who had lost, or never found, courage or hope in various spheres of life—a warning about the half-life Ennis tried to live—but of course the most persistently noted loss was of transcending love.
[36] Many posters emphatically write about the place of romantic love in their own lives. Some straight posters were newly dissatisfied with their marriages or, conversely, realized they had been taking their partners for granted; others took the step to leave their straight relationships and commit to same-sex partners. For some gay men, the movie was a revelation of the possibilities of romantic love against the constrictions experienced even with a gay male culture of multiple short-term partners or else just an unexplained emotional constriction. A gay, thirty-six-year-old journalist, for example, realized he had understood heterosexual love stories only intellectually, but with Brokeback he could finally feel the paradigm: "Is this what mainstream love stories . . . feel like for heterosexuals?” (93). Similarly, a sixty-one-year-old man writes, "They've allowed me to feel what real love must feel like. I was straight and married for seven years; after I had a gay partner for fifteen years, but no love, just settling. Now I feel that I deserve to know what real love is” (210). A forty-three-year-old man who in his youth engaged in an intense friendship with a male roommate writes, “I thought that coming out would remove the unseen obstacles and make finding love easier, but now . . . I see that hasn't been the case. I've found plenty of this and that, but never anything approximating the heart-binder that started it all” (81). Another gay man, happy enough in a secure, comfortable relationship, fell into a passionate love affair, eventually ending it to avoid hurting his partner. Now, after seeing the film, he questions whether he made the right decision (82). Thus some men were actually introduced for the first time to the paradigm scenario of romantic love. Previously, they had been unable to identify with heterosexual stories, and the scenario was missing from their experience of gay culture. Others who had experienced passionate love now had the transcendent value of love affirmed by the experience of the film. At the same time, some straight viewers were reminded of the same paradigm but were able to identify or care for same-sex characters. Thus, that old model of romantic love was resuscitated but in a communal context; people were talking about movie, and therefore often about love, en mass.
[37] The forum participants talked about love but seemed to come to the forum through a shared emotive experience. These discussions were incited by a complex and multi-layered communal sharing of grief, longing, and joy, a potent mix of emotion dubbed "Brokeback Mountain Fever." One poster described leaving the theater stunned and pulling off the road to cry (10). Another wrote that she "would wake up in the middle of the night with scenes and music from the movie in my head, weeping uncontrollably" (181). The grief seemed to be both directed at the characters themselves, as many viewers felt a maternal affection for the two young lovers, or even a vicarious state of unrequited love for a character or the film as a whole, but this was also entangled with surprise grief from their own lives. One poster describes a broad, encompassing grief that crosses demographic lines, saying the film “opened a bottomless well of sadness in them that they didn't know existed” (54). In fact, as the poster notes, Annie Proulx thought that because of the recent death of his father, Ang Lee could evoke the dirge-like quality of the story. At the same time, an erotic longing was mixed into this grief and precisely set the grounds for grief. Probably the best articulation of this fever was posted by “Valkyrie:” "After I saw the movie for the first time, I was stunned and could barely talk. Images and scenes flashed through my mind. I could hardly sleep. And then it started: waves of pleasure rolled over me, sometimes like lightning flashes sizzling through my body, again and again . . . I kept seeing the love scenes repeatedly with my inner eyes. And I started feeling aroused most of the time. Sometimes I cried from grief and pain, but then the pleasure waves started again” (205). Thus the film portrays not only the hoary romantic love narrative, but through its reconfiguration of elements, particularly I believe through its reconstitution of masculinity and its challenge to the heteronormativity of love, evokes a common audience response that recaptures the vicarious emotional feel of orthodox romantic love. A significant audience, in other words, fell in love, passionately and bodily with the film, with the characters, and with the actors. In the early days there was a rush to see the film over and over again, and the forum posters confessed or boasted of the number of their visits to the theater, some seeing the movie ten to twenty times. A similar upsurge in viewings and interpretative dissections came with the release of the DVD in 2006 and the added bonus of being able to stop, rewind, capture, and manipulate images from the film. Now posters are able to delve into the question of, for example, what Ennis and Jack whispered to each other at the start of the second tent scene (consensual answer: Ennis: “I’m sorry.” Jack: “It’s alright, it’s alright.”). The obsession, the grief, and the longing, all components of “Brokeback Mountain Fever,” perfectly encapsulate the emotional experience of classical romantic love.
http://www.genders.org/g50/g50_koziak.html (http://www.genders.org/g50/g50_koziak.html)
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Shepherding Romance
Reviving the Politics of Romantic Love in Brokeback Mountain
By BARBARA KOZIAK
This is a most interesting article.
The first I've seen that actually attempts to describe (and explain?) us, our reactions to the film and our forum.
Thanks for posting it John!!!
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CALL FOR PAPERS
The Philosophy of Ang Lee
Edited by Robert Arp
Please send these two things to: Robert Arp at:
robertarp...@gmail.com, by Nov. 1, 2009
(1) A short, no more than 100 word abstract of a chapter you would
like to write for the book. In the abstract, you could simply say
something like, “In this paper I will argue X. First, I will do A…
Then, I will do B… Finally, I will do C…”
(2) A short CV that has your contact info (email, phone),
affiliation,
and a few publications, if you have any.
Again, send these two things to: Robert Arp at:
robertarp...@gmail.com, by Nov. 1, 2009
Here are possible topics, but any related topic will be considered:
LOGIC
• Fallacious Reasoning Utilized by Lee’s Characters
• Feminist Logic and Sense Thinking vs. Sensible Thinking
• One Last Ride and the Logic the Gambler Utilizes
METAPHYSICS
• Eastern Philosophical Themes in Ang Lee’s Work
• The Place of God in Lee’s Work
• Taking Woodstock, Inadvertent Actions, and Fate/Determinism
• Brokeback Mountain, Homosexuality, and Personhood
• Se, Jie or Eat Drink, Man Woman and Philosophies of Love
• Hulk, Personal Identity, and Identity over Time
• The Ice Storm and the Distinction between Psychopathology and
a
Healthy Personality
• Sense, Sensibility, and the Definition of Conscious States
• The Wedding Banquet, Humor, and Cartharsis in the Human Psyche
EPISTEMOLOGY
• Taking Woodstock’s Historical Accuracy, Conflicting Testimony,
and
Justification for Claims
• Bruce Banner, Hulk, Sense, and Reference
• Feminist Epistemology and “Sense-ing” Perception vs.
“Sensible” Perception
• Perceived Alienation in Lee’s Films
• Perceiver, Perception, and Perceived in Lee’s Work
ETHICS
• Brokeback Mountain and the Ethics of Homosexuality
• The Hands of Shang-Chi, Virtue Ethics, and Parental Role
Models
• The Ice Storm, Free Love, and the Ethics of Sex
• Taking Woodstock, and a Comparison of the Ethics of the 50s
and the
60s in the US
• Film as a Crucial Element in Telling Morality Tales
• Hulk, and “If Science Can Do It, Then Science Ought To Do It”
• Hulk, Supervillains, and the Idea that Absolute Power Corrupts
Absolutely
• Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon, Character, and Virtue Ethics
• One Last Ride and Utilitarian Reasons for Gambling
• Utilitarian vs. Deontological Approaches in Lee’s Work
POLITICAL PHILOSOPHY
• Brokeback Mountain and Gay Rights
• Film as an Essential medium for Public Discussion
• Hulk and the Obsession with Superheroes
• Ride with the Devil and the History of Slavery
• Ride with the Devil and the Philosophical Justifications for
the US Civil War
• The Ice Storm and the Political Philosophy of Early 70s US
http://groups.google.com/group/philosophy-updates/browse_thread/thread/ff952b25b2744993?pli=1[/url (http://groups.google.com/group/philosophy-updates/browse_thread/thread/ff952b25b2744993?pli=1)
-
Is whoever writes the scripts for the medical series "House" a Brokie?
It certainly seems likely:
This weeks episode shown on Sky 1 in the UK:
Dr House: I quit.
Dr Foreman: You can't quit.
Dr House: Aren't you confusing me with Jake Gyllenhaal?
.............................................................................
That certainly sounds like a real Brokie comment to me :D :D :D
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Spaces of Desire: Liminality and Abjection in Brokeback Mountain
by Fran Pheasant-Kelly
full article...
http://www.jgcinema.org/pages/view.php?cat=articoli_dossier&id=374&id_film=164&id_dossier=22 (http://www.jgcinema.org/pages/view.php?cat=articoli_dossier&id=374&id_film=164&id_dossier=22)
A few thought-provoking thoughts therefrom --
"~Since this film centres on two ranch hands and is partly set in the wilderness, critical analysis inevitably tends to consider its relationship to the Western genre (Kitses, 2007; Spohrer, 2009). ~ " Huh. And, for those who don't believe her, she provides references.
"~ In Revolution in Poetic Language (1984), she explains that the maternal world, which she refers to as the semiotic chora~" Damn! I knew I should a stuck around till I was a sophomore, sos I could understand stuff like that.
Thank God for modern literature departments, and those who live in them. How much poorer our lives would be without them!!
-
happy and heartbreaking...best of
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytZnnMNo1r0&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytZnnMNo1r0&feature=related)
-
thanks for posting it!
-
i can't watch it without crying, but it's so good...and i like the way she uses the original soundtrack, and doesn't rry to match it up with more modern crap...
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The 100 Best Films of the Decade
Art house or Blockbuster? Juno or Jason Bourne? Is The Bourne Supremacy really better than Brokeback Mountain? And if Finding Nemo made it, what the hell happened to Shrek? Tell us where we got it wrong, or right, and post your alternative lists below
http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/film/article6902642.ece (http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/film/article6902642.ece)
-
http://artsbeat.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/11/13/the-most-important-films-of-the-decade/#comment-158795
Where is the mention of BROKEBACK MOUNTAIN in all this? Not a word about Ang Lee?
What on earth is this guy writing about? It can't be about the Best Films of the Decade if he failed to
include BBM. Ergo the article is jibberish.
So why did I include it?
Simply because I wanted you guys to see it and perhaps post a comment or two or three on
the NY Times website, as I have.
-
Do you know what I feel like posting here? Today I watched a brilliant film. It was about two young men, who against all odds found one another and fell passionately in love with each other. Everything was against them right from the start. People ,geography and promises made to others. But love endured and after a break of four years they met again and the spark was still there. Many years passed without the dreams of one of them ever coming to fruition and the other one totally lost in life. What solved the problem was one of them had got killed. Maybe accident maybe not. The remaining man went to the others ranch to offer condolences..but was not very well received by one member of the family. He was offered the chance to go and see his "friends room. There he found hidden, two shirts,interlocked inside each other. The shirt hidden inside the blue shirt was one the visiting man thought he had lost years ago. Neither of the men realised or even admitted what they had felt for each other..just called it "this thing"...but at that moment ...in that small bare room... it was given a name....LOVE.
This is how I view "Brokeback Mountain". May be too simplistic but some times I feel all the beauty is being stripped away. I understand that the forum is so we can get beneath the skin of BBM and try to understand it a little better. But some times I have to step back and just "see" the film and its story.
-
BTW, the movie's on Bravo right now.
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Thanks friztkep. But aready have it recorded and "kept" so I can view it at anytime. Also have the DVD. But BBM is not showing on Bravo in UK tonight. I've checked !!!
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Do you know what I feel like posting here? Today I watched a brilliant film. It was about two young men, who against all odds found one another and fell passionately in love with each other. Everything was against them right from the start. People ,geography and promises made to others. But love endured and after a break of four years they met again and the spark was still there. Many years passed without the dreams of one of them ever coming to fruition and the other one totally lost in life. What solved the problem was one of them had got killed. Maybe accident maybe not. The remaining man went to the others ranch to offer condolences..but was not very well received by one member of the family. He was offered the chance to go and see his "friends room. There he found hidden, two shirts,interlocked inside each other. The shirt hidden inside the blue shirt was one the visiting man thought he had lost years ago. Neither of the men realised or even admitted what they had felt for each other..just called it "this thing"...but at that moment ...in that small bare room... it was given a name....LOVE.
This is how I view "Brokeback Mountain". May be too simplistic but some times I feel all the beauty is being stripped away. I understand that the forum is so we can get beneath the skin of BBM and try to understand it a little better. But some times I have to step back and just "see" the film and its story.
That was beautiful, Sue.
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Thanks Donna. Just needed to say it. xx
-
And it needed saying. Thank you Sue.
-
That was beautiful, Sue.
Sue, you cut to the heart of the story, and said what it all comes down to without over analyzing: love. Thanks for that.
-
Do you know what I feel like posting here? Today I watched a brilliant film. It was about two young men, who against all odds found one another and fell passionately in love with each other. Everything was against them right from the start. People ,geography and promises made to others. But love endured and after a break of four years they met again and the spark was still there. Many years passed without the dreams of one of them ever coming to fruition and the other one totally lost in life. What solved the problem was one of them had got killed. Maybe accident maybe not. The remaining man went to the others ranch to offer condolences..but was not very well received by one member of the family. He was offered the chance to go and see his "friends room. There he found hidden, two shirts,interlocked inside each other. The shirt hidden inside the blue shirt was one the visiting man thought he had lost years ago. Neither of the men realised or even admitted what they had felt for each other..just called it "this thing"...but at that moment ...in that small bare room... it was given a name....LOVE.
You really should post that on the website Rosewood referred to. It is very well stated.
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thankx sue that was very nice way to look at it. actually the movie itself in terms of execution is so strong that you always want to see it again and again. All I knw is the true world inside of me is as it is in BBM. When in the very first scene when th mountains are shown at dusk and in the back ground the music starts and as soon as my ear gets the very first pull of the string that takes me to a different world which is my world which is much of me. This life in the end of the day is so weird I even forget that its just movie not even some real piece of history because I don't believe it or my mind cannot still accept that BBM world doesnot exist in real. ahhhhhhhhhhhhh I don't what have i been typing pardon me please if I,vie said anyfin inappropriate.
All would say is Love is still out there in our hearts and we got it from BBM
God bless u all
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http://feeds.wired.com/~r/wired/index/~3/8976oZCUcUs/
The complaint calls that the Brokeback Mountain factor
-
I've put this on several threads because I wanted to give it to all Brokies for Christmas, but I can't seem to find one place that gets everyone. Hope you find it here if nowhere else...
http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=38359.msg1741466#msg1741466 (http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=38359.msg1741466#msg1741466)
~~~fia
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Foreverinawe. Great Video. If only that could have happened. If only....
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The Eagles' song "Desperado" reminds me of Ennis. The mood more than the words, though the words relate to him, too.
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Hi everyone,
I wasn't sure where to post this or if it's been mentioned, but a photo of Ennis & Jack were in a photo collage on the LA Times front page of the Calendar section on Sunday for Kenneth Turan's ( who was on the Gene Autry Museum panel two weeks ago) best pic. of films or TV for the decade. They were both leaning against a truck, so I don't think it's an actual shot from the film, but it was very cool to see them make the list for the decade.
Deb
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Hey Brokies, I need help with something I saw in the movie. When Jack first comes to visit Ennis, there is a red/white/blue plaid jacket hanging up in the hallway of E's & A's apartment. At the end, its hanging up in JAck's closet. Am I crazy? Does that mean something? Or just that no one paid attention when "wardrobing" the sets? I can't imagine it pasted Ang Lee's notice so I thought it must mean something.
-
Are you sure they are the same jackets? Or just similar color & style?
I'm looking at pics of both shots and they look like different jackets to me.
-
Even if the jackets are different, they are similar.
I don't think it was a mistake.
Closets are in several scenes in the film for good reason, and I doubt that anything in those closets would be an accident.
Marit Allen was very aware of the costuming and what the clothes represented.
This is from an L.A. Times article from Jan 2006:
---------------------------------------------------------------------
"Everything worn by cowboys and ranchers has a meaning and a cultural reference," says Allen. "It would be very easy for an outsider unfamiliar with the code to make a mistake. For instance, cowboys wear Wrangler jeans [they're much tighter] and ranchers wear looser Levi's. Even the shape and heel height on a cowboy boot tells a tale. So does the height, color, brim and shape of a hat, which also varies from state to state. For instance, Jack's broader Texas hat is different than the one Ennis wears in Wyoming. And all of this is unspoken but rigorously observed."
--------------------------------------------------------
full article here:
http://blog.zap2it.com/thedishrag/2006/01/brokeback-cloth.html
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Hey Brokies, I need help with something I saw in the movie. When Jack first comes to visit Ennis, there is a red/white/blue plaid jacket hanging up in the hallway of E's & A's apartment. At the end, its hanging up in JAck's closet. Am I crazy? Does that mean something? Or just that no one paid attention when "wardrobing" the sets? I can't imagine it pasted Ang Lee's notice so I thought it must mean something.
No you're not crazy. You're very observant.
I don't remember anyone mentioning the 2 jackets before. I think it's definitely a mirrored scene.
-
My goodness and silly me, I thought after four years we'd noticed everything there is to be noticed. This is a good one.
I liked to think that sometimes Jack would go to sleep wearing Ennis's shirt. Yes, it's slightly icky to wear a shirt stained w/ someone else's blood, but being asleep in your lover's embrace trumps that. I bet Jack didn't wash it as long as it smelled of Ennis.
And the matching jacket goes nicely with that image.
-
Even if the jackets are different, they are similar.
I don't think it was a mistake.
Closets are in several scenes in the film for good reason, and I doubt that anything in those closets would be an accident.
Marit Allen was very aware of the costuming and what the clothes represented.
This is from an L.A. Times article from Jan 2006:
---------------------------------------------------------------------
"Everything worn by cowboys and ranchers has a meaning and a cultural reference," says Allen. "It would be very easy for an outsider unfamiliar with the code to make a mistake. For instance, cowboys wear Wrangler jeans [they're much tighter] and ranchers wear looser Levi's. Even the shape and heel height on a cowboy boot tells a tale. So does the height, color, brim and shape of a hat, which also varies from state to state. For instance, Jack's broader Texas hat is different than the one Ennis wears in Wyoming. And all of this is unspoken but rigorously observed."
--------------------------------------------------------
full article here:
http://blog.zap2it.com/thedishrag/2006/01/brokeback-cloth.html
That's a most interesting article John!
I haven't read it before.
-
Are you sure they are the same jackets? Or just similar color & style?
I'm looking at pics of both shots and they look like different jackets to me.
I guess I'll have to watch it again and see. I thought they were very smiliar and maybe the same. Can you post the pics you are looking at?
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ok, looked at the pics as well, they are not the same but very similar. So did Ang put them there as forshadowing of the shirts?
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ok, looked at the pics as well, they are not the same but very similar. So did Ang put them there as forshadowing of the shirts?
I haven't found anything that tells me about these specific shots. I can only try to guess by reading what is out there.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marit Allen: Ang Lee understands characters' emotions completely. Nothing escapes his notice, and he uses every piece of the frame to tell his story.
Michael Costigan: Marit Allen has worked with Ang [before], and had a great time finding what these people would have been wearing and how they would look in Wyoming and Texas then.
Marit Allen: I always work with the actors; we find things together. We used earth tones almost entirely for Ennis. Heath was deeply involved with his character. He worked with his clothes, using everything he wears to convey Ennis' repression - the jackets, done up; the cowboy hats, to hide behind
Jake Gyllenhaal: This is the first time I've ever played a character spanning a long period of time. Ang said, it's not only the makeup and the wardrobe but also the voice and the movement and the behaviour - everything combined into one. He made me feel empowered.
Diana Ossana: When Marit showed me photographs of Heath and Jake in wardrobe, they looked so real, so much like the characters we had envisioned, that I had to go outside and compose myself. I was that moved
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Brokeback Mountain - Production notes
http://thecia.com.au/reviews/b/images/brokeback-mountain-production-notes.rtf (http://thecia.com.au/reviews/b/images/brokeback-mountain-production-notes.rtf)
So yes I think Ang Lee and Marit Allen took the wardrobe very seriously and nothing was an accident.
It was a subtle foreshadowing.
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Hi Brokies!
Just thought I'd stop by and tell you that Brokeback Mountain made the list of the ten best movies of the decade by two respected film critcs here in Montreal. It's the very first on one list and the fifth on the other.
To be expected of course...!!!!
Hugs
JJ
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Hello JohnJohn! It's good to see ya, and thanks for the info!!
-
The recent posts on TOTW concerning sites visited by Ennis and Jack really interested me, since I've been an inveterate traveler all my life. In particular, the Wind River Mountain Range intrigued me, and I began searching the Internet for whatever information I could find.
Holy Mackerel, I found a bunch! I should add that once I got into online searching, it quickly led to Google Earth and Google Maps. I also own a program called Topo USA which provides exquisite detailing of topography, trails, creeks, streams, etc.
Many of the ranges Annie mentioned can be seen here; a few are a bit outside the field shown (the Gallatins are mostly in Montana, but spill south a little way into Yellowstone Natl Park.)
(https://ultimatebrokebackforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi673.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fvv93%2Ftinytruck%2FWyomingBasinsandUpliftsA.jpg&hash=29d6e3c5fe70d317945d6b79e45cdc8ad29cae10)
Google Maps, in particular, offers several different presentations; one may view roads, or terrain, or satellite views, or combinations. What's more, it's loaded with on-site photographs of the local scenery, pictures taken and uploaded by ordinary people, locals and visitors alike. There are dozens of photos of Riverton, the Wind River Basin (Riverton is in the WRB) and the Wind River Range.
Here is an image from Google Maps, showing the satellite image of the Wind River Basin, the surrounding gorgeous mountain ranges, the rivers, roads and towns. (If you need it bigger, tap Ctrl + several times.)
(https://ultimatebrokebackforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi673.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fvv93%2Ftinytruck%2FGoogleMapsWindRiverBasinB.jpg&hash=2991fe4e4a1395100a5cf6a62f5d0fe3ceea1dc3)
For Brokies, you'll discover that Dubois (where they ate after getting paid by Aguirre) is about 75 miles from Riverton, both in the Wind River basin, both on the same highway (US26). The southwest side of the basin is formed by the Wind River Range, the opposite side by the Washakie Range and Owl Creek mountains. The basin is quite narrow at Dubois. Our beloved, fictional mountain could be on either side of the basin; one only has to go a few miles from Dubois to get into the big mountains.
Maybe I'm not much of a cartographer, but I did not realize that Wind River Basin is only 55 miles from the iconic Grand Tetons; just drive west from Dubois on US26 and you run right into it. (Ennis told Junior he thought he'd be on a roundup at the Tetons on her wedding date, but he likely meant the Teton National Forest, not the Grand Teton Natl Park.)
It was while I was exploring the Gros Ventre (pronounced GROW-van) range that I followed a link to this site:
http://www.wyomingtalesandtrails.com/index.html (http://www.wyomingtalesandtrails.com/index.html)
What a wonderful description of Wyoming, from pioneers to present, told with old and new photos, and a wry and loving perspective written by a Wyomian named G. B. Dobson. I spent a half hour reading it, didn't even get half way. Among other things it talks about the Wind River Basin, but it spans two centuries of people and millions of years of geology. I can't wait to finish it.
(I sincerely recommend a quiet evening alone, in front of your computer, accompanied by a glass of your favorite wine, reading this beautiful retrospective. It may inspire you to visit Wyoming; on the other hand, it may make a visit unnecessary, since you will have come to know it so well a visit would be superfluous.)
I am humbled that such beauty is delivered to me free, in my own house, at my demand. And in my case, it was sparked by the magnificent story written by Annie Proulx.
With all of the shortcomings of mankind, we still have amazing abilities and the potential for love and hope. With a lump in my throat, I am forever in awe.
-
Or you can always backpack the CDT ::)
http://www.cdtrail.org/page.php
-
The recent posts on TOTW concerning sites visited by Ennis and Jack really interested me, since I've been an inveterate traveler all my life. In particular, the Wind River Mountain Range intrigued me, and I began searching the Internet for whatever information I could find.
Holy Mackerel, I found a bunch! I should add that once I got into online searching, it quickly led to Google Earth and Google Maps. I also own a program called Topo USA which provides exquisite detailing of topography, trails, creeks, streams, etc.
Many of the ranges Annie mentioned can be seen here; a few are a bit outside the field shown (the Gallatins are mostly in Montana, but spill south a little way into Yellowstone Natl Park.)
(https://ultimatebrokebackforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi673.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fvv93%2Ftinytruck%2FWyomingBasinsandUpliftsA.jpg&hash=29d6e3c5fe70d317945d6b79e45cdc8ad29cae10)
Google Maps, in particular, offers several different presentations; one may view roads, or terrain, or satellite views, or combinations. What's more, it's loaded with on-site photographs of the local scenery, pictures taken and uploaded by ordinary people, locals and visitors alike. There are dozens of photos of Riverton, the Wind River Basin (Riverton is in the WRB) and the Wind River Range.
Here is an image from Google Maps, showing the satellite image of the Wind River Basin, the surrounding gorgeous mountain ranges, the rivers, roads and towns. (If you need it bigger, tap Ctrl + several times.)
(https://ultimatebrokebackforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi673.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fvv93%2Ftinytruck%2FGoogleMapsWindRiverBasinB.jpg&hash=2991fe4e4a1395100a5cf6a62f5d0fe3ceea1dc3)
For Brokies, you'll discover that Dubois (where they ate after getting paid by Aguirre) is about 75 miles from Riverton, both in the Wind River basin, both on the same highway (US26). The southwest side of the basin is formed by the Wind River Range, the opposite side by the Washakie Range and Owl Creek mountains. The basin is quite narrow at Dubois. Our beloved, fictional mountain could be on either side of the basin; one only has to go a few miles from Dubois to get into the big mountains.
Maybe I'm not much of a cartographer, but I did not realize that Wind River Basin is only 55 miles from the iconic Grand Tetons; just drive west from Dubois on US26 and you run right into it. (Ennis told Junior he thought he'd be on a roundup at the Tetons on her wedding date, but he likely meant the Teton National Forest, not the Grand Teton Natl Park.)
It was while I was exploring the Gros Ventre (pronounced GROW-van) range that I followed a link to this site:
http://www.wyomingtalesandtrails.com/index.html (http://www.wyomingtalesandtrails.com/index.html)
What a wonderful description of Wyoming, from pioneers to present, told with old and new photos, and a wry and loving perspective written by a Wyomian named G. B. Dobson. I spent a half hour reading it, didn't even get half way. Among other things it talks about the Wind River Basin, but it spans two centuries of people and millions of years of geology. I can't wait to finish it.
(I sincerely recommend a quiet evening alone, in front of your computer, accompanied by a glass of your favorite wine, reading this beautiful retrospective. It may inspire you to visit Wyoming; on the other hand, it may make a visit unnecessary, since you will have come to know it so well a visit would be superfluous.)
I am humbled that such beauty is delivered to me free, in my own house, at my demand. And in my case, it was sparked by the magnificent story written by Annie Proulx.
With all of the shortcomings of mankind, we still have amazing abilities and the potential for love and hope. With a lump in my throat, I am forever in awe.
thank you for that information Very helpful!
I´ve been able to locate every mountain range except for two; the Freezeouts and the Ferrises. I´m not sure if they exist at all. Does anyone knoe?
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thank you for that information Very helpful!
I´ve been able to locate every mountain range except for two; the Freezeouts and the Ferrises. I´m not sure if they exist at all. Does anyone knoe?
Hi Monika,
I know!
(https://ultimatebrokebackforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi673.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fvv93%2Ftinytruck%2FFerrisFreezeoutsA.jpg&hash=d71cb6f22d9f6507a16684fb2e8ecbea0ca185c1)
Here's what I found about the Ferrises:
A trail-less, virtually unknown mountain range in the Ferris Mountains Wilderness Study Area, located approximately 45 miles north of Rawlins, near a high desert pass and small settlement called Muddy Gap. [About 75 miles southeast of Riverton.] The area offers unpopulated hiking; unknown deep canyons; high mountain ridges and peaks and all of it is untrailed.
Apparently the Freezeouts are much smaller and not worth mentioning, except that they virtually define "out in the middle a nowhere."
FWIW, I am hot on the trail of Lightning Flat. As soon as I confirm a longitude, I think I will have it positively located. Everyone knows "about where it is," but I have discovered it plotted on two old legal plats. Stay tuned.
~~~fia
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“ACCORDING TO THEIR WILLS AND PLEASURES”: THE SEXUAL STEREOTYPING
OF MORMON MEN IN AMERICAN FILM AND TELEVISION
Travis Sutton, B.A.
Thesis Prepared for the Degree of
MASTER OF ARTS
UNIVERSITY OF NORTH TEXAS
May 2009
------------------------------------------------------------
Mormons and their views on sexuality received national attention during the
theatrical release of Brokeback Mountain (2005), a critically-acclaimed film about two
cowboys who maintain a closeted homosexual relationship throughout their lives. The
Jordan Commons, a popular megaplex south of Salt Lake City, Utah, scheduled showings
for the gay-themed film; however, hours before the first showing of Brokeback Mountain,
Larry H. Miller, a prominent Latter-day Saint and owner of the megaplex, publicly
refused his support for the film by canceling the scheduled screenings. His decision
played out as controversial since Hostel (2005) and The Producers (2005) remained open
the same day for exhibition at Miller’s megaplex. Miller’s decision appeared, to some, to
communicate that the representation of a monstrous homosexual man performing
gruesome human torture in Hostel was to be excused over the serious examination of
male sexuality found in Brokeback Mountain, an examination that reached beyond the
stereotypical effeminate gay men on display for audience laughter in The Producers.
Miller, one Mormon man with heavy corporate power and influence in the Utah
community, acted upon a value judgment that appeared to communicate that he preferred
to mock or fear homosexual relationships rather than to seriously consider the reality of
such relationships and the cultural climate that pressures such relationships to remain in
the closet.
As can be interpreted from his decision, Miller is not comfortable with the way
Brokeback Mountain presents male sexuality and American masculinity as having a
potential for malleability, unpredictability, and nonconformity. Although Brokeback
Mountain is commonly labeled as a “gay cowboy” movie, some critics resist and
challenge the labeling of the main characters as “gay” because the two male characters do
not self-identify as “gay” and their sexual activity within the narrative is predominantly
heterosexual. In his reception study of the film, Harry Benshoff describes Brokeback
Mountain as “an exemplary queer film, exploring diverse sexualities that cannot be easily
labeled or described” (“Brokering Brokeback Mountain”). Benshoff’s use of the word
“queer” to describe this particular film is significant because the main characters in the
film challenge other popular labels such as “gay” and “straight.” The term “queer”
recognizes a peculiarity that transcends known identity categories. Benshoff’s study
acknowledges that “the film’s reception affirms, denies, and/or otherwise complicates the
social constructions and popular understandings of male (homo)sexual desire”
(“Brokering Brokeback Mountain”). Therefore, Benshoff’s study reveals that an inability
for audiences to neatly categorize the two main characters in Brokeback Mountain within
such binary social models as gay/straight or masculine/feminine potentially generates
anxiety for both conservative and liberal communities who may respond to the film.
Benshoff also identifies several theater owners in Texas who, like Miller, chose not to
exhibit Brokeback Mountain at their particular venue, including one theater in Childress,
Texas, where a portion of the story of Brokeback Mountain takes place. For social
conservative Larry H. Miller, his decision to cancel the scheduled screenings of the film
reached a level of publicity to the extent that Heath Ledger, a star of the film, commented
in an Australian newspaper about the “Mormons in Utah” and “their problem” with
regarding the film as controversial (“Ledger Blasts”).
Ultimately, Miller’s choice and its subsequent news coverage reveal the
complexities behind such issues as representation and advocacy, values and tolerance,
and Mormons and sexuality. This project will examine such complexities and their
relationships to social systems of power; therefore, this project will examine Mormon
representation in film and television and interpret what such representations communicate
about Mormons, sexuality, values, tolerance, and their interplay with cultural power
systems. As these chapters will examine, there is a curious negotiation in the way
cultural texts, specifically movies and television shows, present Mormons and their
sexuality; that is, texts produced for Mormon audiences generally present a specific,
idealized, and purposeful (hetero)sexuality, and this representation opposes texts that are
produced for non-Mormon audiences that present Mormons and their sexuality as queer,
monstrous, and/or self-destructive. Some cultural theorists explain “that since queer is a
positionality [… it] can be taken up by anyone who feels marginalized as a result of their
sexual practices” (Sullivan 44). In the nineteenth century, Mormons were marginalized
for their queer sexual practice of marrying multiple partners. Since that time, the
development of film and television has allowed for the display of Mormon characters,
and the uniqueness of these characters is in many ways attached to their approach to
sexuality. Accordingly, sexuality in the Mormon experience remains in a position of
queerness as perceived by Western culture.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
PDF file, 192 pages
full article here:
http://digital.library.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metadc9825/m1/1/high_res_d/ (http://digital.library.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metadc9825/m1/1/high_res_d/)
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I find the discussion about the nature of sexuality here interesting.
I am not sure it is a subject it is possible to be too objective about whilst there is still so much shame and opprobrium attached to being homosexual.
There is not a level playing field from which to make observations.
Ennis married and had sex with women to prove to himself and to society that he wasn't "queer," because it wasn't acceptable at that time and in that place to be "queer."
How many real people does this apply to?
When being homosexual carries no stigma then it will be possible to observe and understand just how fluid sexuality really is and how much bisexual behaviour is the result of societal pressures.
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Thanks, John, I downloaded the thesis because I want to read it at leisure sometime.
(I did my Master's thesis on the attitude of the Government of Louisiana toward Acadian French from early statehood to the election of Edwin Edwards, the first governor of Cajun ancestry, as governor. I expect this should be livelier!)
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Read and weep: Our Top 10 movie tearjerkers
By Kat Angus and Miranda Furtado, Canwest News Service
Brokeback Mountain (2005) — In 1963, ranch hand Ennis (Heath Ledger) and cowboy Jack (Jake Gyllenhaal) spend an isolated summer together, herding sheep in Wyoming. They also discover that their feelings for each other are more than platonic, and though they spend the rest of their lives trying to ignore their love, Jack and Ennis are drawn back together again and again. When Jack is killed by a mob of gay-bashers, Ennis realizes that he's spent his whole life ignoring who he is, and vows not to waste his remaining years keeping his loved ones at arm's length.
http://www.vancouversun.com/entertainment/Read+weep+movie+tearjerkers/2522233/story.html (http://www.vancouversun.com/entertainment/Read+weep+movie+tearjerkers/2522233/story.html)
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Yesterday I saw Gone with the Wind at the Castro Theatre. (They spell it "re," which I do only under duress.)
When Ashley leaves his home in Atlanta at Christmas 1863, Scarlett watches him through the window walk through the front gate and into the fog. When I saw that, I remembered the almost-final scene where Rhett leaves Scarlett and walks off into the fog. I was wondering if he also went through the front gate. I should have remembered that, at the Butlers' house, the front gate was much further away from the front door than it was at the Wilkeses' house, and so couldn't be in the shot. (How's that for correct use of apostrophes?)
And I wondered if Victor Fleming was having an Ang Lee moment, and making those two departures as similar to each other as he could.
Similiarities:
-- the man Scarlett loves is leaving (though she only thinks she loves Ashley)
-- he's going off into the fog
Differences:
-- gate v. no gate
-- Scarlett watches Ashley through the window, and watches Rhett through the open front door
It's not easy to fiddle w/ the Butlers' front gate. But Scarlett could have watched Ashley through the door instead of the window.
Maybe we're all starting to watch movies w/ what we fancy is Ang Lee's eye.
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Theatre................. Mark........... from old French. I don't know, all this phonetic spelling you Americans favour.......................................... :D :D :D
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But Scarlett could have watched Ashley through the door instead of the window.
Not really.
Symbolically speaking, Ashley had to "close the door" on any possibility of a relationship with Scarlett leaving
her with only a "window" of opportunity to secure his affections.
"After the war, Ashley, after the war".
Whereas, in the final scene it is symbolically important for
the "door" to a future for Scarlett and Rhett be left open.
Maybe we're all starting to watch movies w/ what we fancy is Ang Lee's eye.
I fear Victor Fleming would be tempted to strangle Ang Lee.
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Theatre................. Mark........... from old French. I don't know, all this phonetic spelling you Americans favour.......................................... :D :D :D
well -- we know that. :)
but it is viewed as an affectation. especially if an editor has ever gone through an entire manuscript and made a person change the spelling.
This is a true story, it didn't happen to me, but I heed the warning.
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An affectation !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ::) ::) ::) Not here its not.
I spend all day trying to get students to write UK English and not US English. Most computers seem to revert to this as a default position at the drop of a hat and then "correct" their spelling to US standard, which here is just regarded as wrong.
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Hi Marc: Since my all-time co-favorite films are GWTW & Lawrence of Arabia (pre-BBM of course), I'll try to add my thoughts. I've have read everything and seen then so many times I've lost count.
Remember when Scarlett wakes up screaming on her honeymoon and tells Rhett the recurrent dream she always has - walking through fog and finding nothing? Towards the end of the film, she leaves the Wilkes' home (after Melanie's death), walking and running through dense fog and runs to her home, all the while calling for Rhett. She finds him upstairs. It is RHETT she has been seeking in her dreams at the end of the fog; the person she has always, always loved. But he's leaving. He walks out the front door of the Butler home into dense fog - fog again. Too late, just too late. (Sound familiar)??
Mr. Fleming was a very fine director, one of the many, many fine directors taken for granted in his day. And perhaps he did have an Ang Lee moment...
Strange - GWTW and BBM are such sad love stories (very sad ones) that can and never will be surpassed.
And I have always thought to myself they had a lot in common in emotions. I'm glad to read all of the comments!
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http://www.eagletribune.com/pulife/local_story_044160048.html?keyword=topstory
"Reel love: 10 films to watch on Valentine's Day"
"4. "Brokeback Mountain" — It doesn't matter what the gender of the two people
falling in love is, all that matters is that they are in love."
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If the gender doesn't matter, why do they mention it? And why don't they mention it for the other films?
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http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=9922410
"Wyoming Lawmakers Eye 'Cowboy Ethics' Code"
"...and saying more by talking less."
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Originally posted by Bay City John
I (BCJ) found this in the Vancouver Sun today.
I guess the Sun hasn't heard of this forum ;D
Academy Awards buzz: Great flicks that earned Oscar's nod, then snub
In the past 20 to 30 years or so of nominations for best picture, Oscar's usual bread and butter are sumptuous, well-made epics (Ghandi, The Godfather, Amadeus, The Last Emperor, The Right Stuff), well-made genre flicks (Silence of the Lambs, The Fugitive, Fatal Attraction), and cute indie films (Juno, Little Miss Sunshine). Even the films that did break cinematic ground, such as Unforgiven, Brokeback Mountain or Goodfellas, were hardly the type that kept you up at night trying to unravel. But, every now and then, the rare oddball did break through. Like A Serious Man, these were films that seemed to owe nothing to the Oscar-baiting norm of their fellow nominees.
full article:
http://tinyurl.com/ye4hcp4 (http://tinyurl.com/ye4hcp4)
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Hello --
Just read in one of the forums (can't remember which one, unfortunately) that a recent article printed in the Vancouver Sun stated that, after Jack's death and at the end of BBM, "Ennis VOWS that he'll never again keep his loved ones at arm's length". !?! ???
I can't remember the author of this article, but this is way off track. Ennis never vowed anything. He is so devastated by Jack's murder and the loss of Jack's love, director Ang Lee shows the bleakness and emptiness of his prior/present/future lousy "life" from that trailer window. It is so so sad... :'(
Can't believe that a columnist would write such a statement!
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I guess that is his interpretation of "Jack, I swear..."
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Hi, Ellen. Yes, I thought of that too.
I'm influenced by the thought that if I said what Ennis said with all those tears in his eyes, ("Jack, I swear"), it means to me as something in the line of "If I/we could go back all those years, everything would be different..." regarding their relationship, being together, etc. And I thought this was what Ennis may have been feeling in the diner scene after the last time being w/Jack. Seriously thinking of how sad & miserable he was w/o Jack, how much they missed (even loved) each other, etc. :(
But I have to say, Ellen, that I don't get the feeling (ever) of Ennis vowing he'd never keep loved ones at arms' length in future. This just doesn't seem like Ennis.
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Bulga boy recognised at Academy Awards for movie technology
THE red carpet has been mothballed for another year, the flashes faded and the gold statues packed away, but Bulga is still celebrating its first Academy Award winner.
Martin Tlaskal and his company FilmLight were recognised at the Academy's Scientific and Technical Awards for pioneering post-production technology used in films from Brokeback Mountain to The Hangover.
http://www.theherald.com.au/news/local/news/general/bulga-boy-recognised-at-academy-awards-for-movie-technology/1774214.aspx (http://www.theherald.com.au/news/local/news/general/bulga-boy-recognised-at-academy-awards-for-movie-technology/1774214.aspx)
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Brokeback Mountain - Revision of the Western Genre or Homage to the Great West
By Rani Singh
The film Brokeback Mountain is constructed in such a way as to be considered both a revision of and an homage to the western genre. It incorporates traditional western motifs and iconography, and adheres to a common plot structure of the genre, but it also omits other traditions familiar to Western literature and cinema and introduces new concepts, making it refreshingly subversive as a Western film.
The Western genre has always been one that encompasses many other genres – romance, war, epics, melodrama, action and comedy. “Experiment seems always to have been varied and development dynamic, the pendulum swinging back and forth between opposing poles of emphasis on drama and history, plots and spectacle, romance and ‘realism’, seriousness and comedy” (Kitses, J. 1969, p.17). Given the flexibility of the genre it is no wonder Brokeback Mountain was able to so successfully introduce new ideas into its plot, while still being clearly recognisable as a Western.
The most obvious revision prominent in Brokeback Mountain is the introduction of homosexuality. The two main characters of the film, Ennis Del Mar and Jack Twist, are gay lovers – a concept not commonly explored in Western texts. While some might argue that there has always been an underlying homoerotic element in Westerns, it is not something readily explored in Western literature or cinema, least of all made the central theme of such. Commonly the romantic interest of the hero is the glamorous femme fatale, desired for her feminine charm and sensuality. Brokeback Mountain subverts this concept by positioning another male as the hero’s love interest, but it is also problematic as it merely inserts Jack into the role of the female temptress, attaching all of the ideologies associated with femininity onto him. For instance, it is Jack who makes the first move when seducing Ennis, using his allure and sexuality to tempt Ennis when he calls him into the tent. He is worldly and uninhibited and leads Ennis down a risky path. On the other hand, Ennis is portrayed as the saint, being much more repressed and restrained by social standards. “You may be a sinner but I ain’t yet had the opportunity,” he says to Jack. So while exploring the romance between the two men, Brokeback Mountain can be considered a critique of the Western genre, but at the same time could also be said to adhere to the motif of the femme fatale, depicting Jack Twist as the temptress to hero Ennis.
full article...
http://hubpages.com/hub/Brokeback-Mountain-revision-or-homage (http://hubpages.com/hub/Brokeback-Mountain-revision-or-homage)
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Brokeback Mountain - Revision of the Western Genre or Homage to the Great West
By Rani Singh
The most obvious revision prominent in Brokeback Mountain is the introduction of homosexuality. The two main characters of the film, Ennis Del Mar and Jack Twist, are gay lovers – a concept not commonly explored in Western texts. While some might argue that there has always been an underlying homoerotic element in Westerns, it is not something readily explored in Western literature or cinema, least of all made the central theme of such. Commonly the romantic interest of the hero is the glamorous femme fatale, desired for her feminine charm and sensuality. Brokeback Mountain subverts this concept by positioning another male as the hero’s love interest, but it is also problematic as it merely inserts Jack into the role of the female temptress, attaching all of the ideologies associated with femininity onto him. For instance, it is Jack who makes the first move when seducing Ennis, using his allure and sexuality to tempt Ennis when he calls him into the tent. He is worldly and uninhibited and leads Ennis down a risky path. On the other hand, Ennis is portrayed as the saint, being much more repressed and restrained by social standards. “You may be a sinner but I ain’t yet had the opportunity,” he says to Jack. So while exploring the romance between the two men, Brokeback Mountain can be considered a critique of the Western genre, but at the same time could also be said to adhere to the motif of the femme fatale, depicting Jack Twist as the temptress to hero Ennis.
You mean, "quit yer hammering and get in here!" ::) ???
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You mean, "quit yer hammering and get in here!" ::) ???
Well, allure and sexuality by a male femme fatale might well be different in Wyoming. We ought to remember that Lureen, as the seductive temptress said: "Whatcha waitin' for cowboy, a matin' call?"
I propose that the heterosexual members of the forum attempt these phrases and report back to us whether any immediate results ensued. Their significant others might just be tired of the same-old same-old and be perched and ready for something different. Volunteers?
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Very interesting piece. He or she, (Rani ? Maya, help us here), would be a good forum member with lots of intersting things to say. I am so glad that the author bought the whole paradise, Eden thing that I am always banging on about!
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Well, allure and sexuality by a male femme fatale might well be different in Wyoming. We ought to remember that Lureen, as the seductive temptress said: "Whatcha waitin' for cowboy, a matin' call?"
I propose that the heterosexual members of the forum attempt these phrases and report back to us whether any immediate results ensued. Their significant others might just be tired of the same-old same-old and be perched and ready for something different. Volunteers?
I'll let you know how it goes, Tony :D
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I'll let you know how it goes, Tony :D
I guess you're the only one with anthropological interests around here, Donna, so, it's all up to you! Either phrase will do; pup tent on the bed optional. No need for details ::), just....can a Wyoming dialect be employed in a femme fatale manner, thus buttressing the article given by BCJ? Good luck :D!
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Who the hell is Rani Singh anyway? ??? Is this column or his conclusions supposed to be gospel or something? Like it's the final say on the beautiful film that is BBM?? No wonder I could never stand critics. >:D Haven't we had enough of sarcastic/rotten things said about BBM?
For heaven's sake, femme fatale, seducing, temptress Jack?? I've got to tell you - I don't like this guy or this column, not one bit. >:D This is certainly not the impression AP, Dianna and Larry give to their audience. Nor the superb actors or director.
Perhaps I love Ennis & Jack too much to see their love for each other described in this way in a lousy column. This person puts the characters of Ennis and Jack in a bad light and that's certainly not the story.
I don't like it one bit. Am I being too sensitive here, Baycityjohn?
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I don't know who he or she is either Kathy, but some of his / her views are interesting, even though there are some I disagree with.
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Who the hell is Rani Singh anyway? ??? Is this column or his conclusions supposed to be gospel or something? Like it's the final say on the beautiful film that is BBM?? No wonder I could never stand critics. >:D Haven't we had enough of sarcastic/rotten things said about BBM?
For heaven's sake, femme fatale, seducing, temptress Jack?? I've got to tell you - I don't like this guy or this column, not one bit. >:D This is certainly not the impression AP, Dianna and Larry give to their audience. Nor the superb actors or director.
Perhaps I love Ennis & Jack too much to see their love for each other described in this way in a lousy column. This person puts the characters of Ennis and Jack in a bad light and that's certainly not the story.
I don't like it one bit. Am I being too sensitive here, Baycityjohn?
No, no final says, Kathy. John just presents articles he's seen, for interest/discussion. :)
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:) Hi Cally --
You're correct. I know that's what BaycityJohn does too; I don't want anyone to think otherwise. :)
I suppose I really took offense to the "tone" of that column; seems like he/she is drawing it all down like luring someone to sex or something, with words like "femme fatale", "temptress", "subverting of the western genre" (?) stuff, etc. ??? Or suggesting the love Ennis & Jack always had for each other meant only one thing - sex. This is not the ss or the film.
And to picture Jack as the "temptress" and Ennis as the "hero" ??? They're two young men practically cut from the same cloth in their childhood! On BBM, Jack wants to speak to Ennis right away; Ennis doesn't speak much 'til he gets closer & closer to Jack.
BBM is a beautiful and tragic love story spanning many years; can't he/she even get that? Ennis & Jack loved each other; and it effects their entire lives.
Guess that person doesn't get it at all (my opinion, I know).
(I wonder - did he/she even see it at all, like those ampas "members")? >:(
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I don't like it one bit. Am I being too sensitive here, Baycityjohn?
Not at all.
I just post articles as I find them, good or bad.
Never enough sensitivity, never enough.
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:) Hi John --
True. Never enough sensitivity, never enough. >:(
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This editorial is from Malaysia
THE BIG PICTURE: Selective evils get the cut
ARIDUL ANWAR FARINORDIN has mixed feelings over the ruling concerning rempit scenes and those involving homosexuals in local films
WE all die in the end and whether we repent before we breathe our last is knowledge exclusive to the Higher Power. All we can do is to live life to the fullest, do good and pray that we are spared the wrath of our Creator when the time finally comes.
So it’s with mixed feelings that I view the recent ruling that rempit (illegal racing) scenes and those involving homosexuals are allowed only if the characters repent at the end of the film or meet a fate that will repel viewers from emulating them.
If that’s the case, we’re likely to see the dawn of a new cinematic era: The age of repentance. This would be so exciting — I can already tell how the story is going to end if it deals with any of the subjects mentioned. Why bother going to the cinema to see a local film? And why should we focus on the wrongs and not the rights — elements of love, compassion, kindness, forgiveness and humility in the films? Remember the late Yasmin Ahmad’s Muallaf? We kicked ourselves when Sharifah Amani Syed Yahya shaved her head to play her character but we overlooked the film’s central theme on love and forgiveness.
Muallaf is an example of a good film where noble intentions were lost in the flurry of overblown controversy. Rabun, Sepet and Gubra received the same fate, too, all because the moral police in our society felt displays of affection between a middle-aged couple, intercultural romance and love between two schoolchildren were just too much.
Paranoia also took the better of Brokeback Mountain, a love story between two men, which was given a no-go by some cinemas in the Midwest. The film by Ang Lee was never released in Malaysia, although I now wonder if it would receive the green light under the current board ruling.
After all, didn’t the cowboy Jack Twist (played by Jake Gyllenhaal) die a horrible death while his lover Ennis Del Mar (the late Heath Ledger) was left with such a horrible feeling of despair and loss? Surely, this isn’t something that viewers would want to “emulate”.
http://www.nst.com.my/Current_News/NST/articles/20100329232729/Article/index_html (http://www.nst.com.my/Current_News/NST/articles/20100329232729/Article/index_html)
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BTW,
Rani is a woman's name; it means "queen."
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I would love to see a lavish Bollywood singing/dancing number, depicting Hell. Really I would!
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Hi John - re the editorial from Malaysia: ??? >:D
Glad that wasn't my birthplace.
kathy
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Pulitzer-Prize-winning author attends awards banquet
Fans of the book-turned-movie “Brokeback Mountain” had several chances Thursday to meet the brains behind the story, Pulitzer-Prize-winning author Annie Proulx.
Proulx appeared at a public interview session in Hicks Undergraduate Library in the afternoon, then spoke at Purdue’s 79th annual Literary Awards banquet before giving a reading of her latest work at Fowler Hall. Proulx read from her memoir, “Bird Cloud,” a recollection of her travels and experiences growing up. At the interview she gave insight into her methods and thought processes as a writer.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Proulx read an hour’s worth of her memoir at Fowler Hall and answered questions from students afterward. She explained her reasoning behind making the protagonists of “Brokeback Mountain” cowboys.
“If you live in the West, you know the most revered occupation is the cowboy ... it is the symbol of refined masculinity,” Proulx said. “What a lot of readers don’t understand is the characters in ‘Brokeback Mountain’ – the story, not the movie – are not cowboys, they are wanna-be cowboys. Just because you wear a big hat and ride a horse, it does not make you a cowboy.”
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full article:
http://purdueexponent.org/?module=article&story_id=21197 (http://purdueexponent.org/?module=article&story_id=21197)
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http://goldderby.latimes.com/awards_goldderby/2010/05/winners-announced-gold-derby-film-decade-awards.html
BEST MOTION PICTURE
1. "The Lord of the Rings: Return of the King"
2. "Brokeback Mountain"
3. "Moulin Rouge"
BEST LEAD ACTOR
1. Daniel Day-Lewis as Daniel Plainview in "There Will Be Blood"
2. Heath Ledger as Ennis Del Mar in "Brokeback Mountain"
3. Adrien Brody as Wladyslaw Szpilman in "The Pianist"
BEST ADAPTED SCREENPLAY
1. Larry McMurtry & Diana Ossana for "Brokeback Mountain"
2. Tina Fey for "Mean Girls"
3. Charlie Kaufman & Donald Kaufman for "Adaptation"
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:) Oh, I 'm so glad!!
Got to say though - #1 in Best Picture should be Brokeback Mountain.
#1 in Best Actor should Heath as Ennis Del Mar in BBM.
And they certainly got Larry & Diana correct for best adapted screenplay for BBM.
It makes my heart smile to see things like this. Every time I think of those cursed "ampas" members >:D and what was deliberately done in Feb. 2006 to BBM, my blood boils.
HA!! Those "heffalumps" are NEVER going to live this one down.
p.s. Heath, again, should be #1 Best Supporting Actor in The Dark Knight.
And of course Jake should be there too for Best Supporting Actor in BBM.
How about co-wins for #1 - the two of them certainly deserve it.
Wonderful, deserved praise and recognition for such a truly great film! Everything about it is unforgettable.
Our beloved Heath...if only you were here...sweetheart :-* :'(
kathy
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Question about shopping at Amazon through the forum link...
I was limited to certain categories and wonder if it is because the entire site is not available via the link. (I wanted to buy a couple movies but could not get to anything besides Jake/Heath/Ang/etc films. Same for books and cds.)
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Class Acting Scene: Brokeback Mountain
http://www.twitvid.com/5NRKC (http://www.twitvid.com/5NRKC)
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Don't know about you John, but I thought they were pretty good!
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Don't know about you John, but I thought they were pretty good!
I've seen a few of these acting class videos, and I agree they were pretty good.
I did not like the addition of the kiss. It doesn't belong in that scene.
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Powerful.
This is exactly why there needs to be a stage version.
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I've seen a few of these acting class videos, and I agree they were pretty good.
I did not like the addition of the kiss. It doesn't belong in that scene.
John -- I did not like the addition of the kiss either. >:( It does NOT belong in this pivotal scene where Ennis breaks down and sobs in Jack's arms.
And - if I may - they didn't even know the correct lines/words. But, I admit the actor who portrays "Jack" tries harder than the other one. That one really didn't know the correct lines or words.
kathy
p.s. OK, I know I'm prejudiced.
p.s. p.s. And the way the "audience" responded just wasn't "right" to me. This scene is just too sad and emotional.
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The actor playing Jack is like 10 times better than the other guy for sure.
His name is Craig Deering, and he's one of the stars of the Allen & Craig show on Youtube.
http://www.youtube.com/user/EvilIguanaProduction (http://www.youtube.com/user/EvilIguanaProduction)
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and Craig also plays one of Heath Ledger's role's in this spoof:
(https://ultimatebrokebackforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi275.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fjj282%2FSanFranciscoJohn%2FCDDK.jpg&hash=2201e149d5da4468ad00c0e2a094e2ff9d14ced3)
The Dark Knight Trailer Spoof
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8sYBqhOEdRQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8sYBqhOEdRQ)
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Question about shopping at Amazon through the forum link...
I was limited to certain categories and wonder if it is because the entire site is not available via the link. (I wanted to buy a couple movies but could not get to anything besides Jake/Heath/Ang/etc films. Same for books and cds.)
For the time being, the Forum's Amazon store is not generating any commissions for the forum. They have closed the accounts for associates based in Colorado which includes the Forum.
If the problem gets resolved, I can go in and fix it, but I'm not going to spend any time on it right now.
Amazon.com: Fighting for Free Speech? Or Against Sales Tax?
http://abcnews.go.com/Business/amazoncom-fighting-free-speech-sales-tax/story?id=10607597 (http://abcnews.go.com/Business/amazoncom-fighting-free-speech-sales-tax/story?id=10607597)
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For the time being, the Forum's Amazon store is not generating any commissions for the forum. They have closed the accounts for associates based in Colorado which includes the Forum.
If the problem gets resolved, I can go in and fix it, but I'm not going to spend any time on it right now.
Amazon.com: Fighting for Free Speech? Or Against Sales Tax?
http://abcnews.go.com/Business/amazoncom-fighting-free-speech-sales-tax/story?id=10607597 (http://abcnews.go.com/Business/amazoncom-fighting-free-speech-sales-tax/story?id=10607597)
Our local news programs have been running a story about people from Tennessee going to Virginia to shop because the sales tax is less in VA. I've lived in TN 10 years and don't know a single person who does that... most can't tell you what the sales tax IS in TN much less in VA. However, the town of Bristol (think NASCAR) is built right on the state line... half of it is in TN and half in VA. Citizens on the TN side are now getting tax bills for what they purchase on the VA side even if those stores are the closest to them. Every penny counts.
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:) Hello --
I've been sitting and thinking about one of my favorite photos and quote, one that is on the forums but I can't remember which one.
It's a subscript saying "The eyes are the window of the soul". There is a shot of Heath's eyes on the left and a shot of Jake's on the right of the quote.
I think it's beautiful; just wanted to post that.
Also, on the forum (can't remember which) at the bottom there is a subscript with a beautiful photo of Jack & Ennis from the SNIT. There are the words "The first time ever I kissed your lips, etc...." beneath it.
I think this is beautiful too.
They are so touching. :-*
kathy
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:) Thanks, jess, for sending me the photo and verse. I love it.
And - I was sitting here just thinking of another fact -
Remember when Diana Ossana put on a tape of Heath in Monster's Ball to show to Larry McMurtry? Larry said to her: "I don't need to see anymore. That's our Ennis". Fate...
kathy
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I just sent an email to the Government of Alberta, Canada:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Your website at http://culture.alberta.ca/ (http://culture.alberta.ca/)
Has incorrect information:
"Though set in Montana, Brokeback Mountain was filmed all in Alberta, featuring more than 20 different locations including Kananaskis, Fort MacLeod and Canmore. Learn more about Alberta's film, television and digital media industry at Alberta Film. "
Brokeback Mountain was set in Wyoming, not Montana
John Trudell
The Ultimate Brokeback Forum
http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php
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Brokeback Mountain - Best Bits
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytZnnMNo1r0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytZnnMNo1r0)
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I just sent an email to the Government of Alberta, Canada:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Your website at http://culture.alberta.ca/ (http://culture.alberta.ca/)
Has incorrect information:
"Though set in Montana, Brokeback Mountain was filmed all in Alberta, featuring more than 20 different locations including Kananaskis, Fort MacLeod and Canmore. Learn more about Alberta's film, television and digital media industry at Alberta Film. "
Brokeback Mountain was set in Wyoming, not Montana
John Trudell
The Ultimate Brokeback Forum
http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php
Way to go, John!
Please let us know if you get an answer.
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Brokeback Mountain - Best Bits
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytZnnMNo1r0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytZnnMNo1r0)
I thought I was immune by now.
The last scene made me cry -- again.
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I just sent an email to the Government of Alberta, Canada:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Your website at http://culture.alberta.ca/ (http://culture.alberta.ca/)
Has incorrect information:
"Though set in Montana, Brokeback Mountain was filmed all in Alberta, featuring more than 20 different locations including Kananaskis, Fort MacLeod and Canmore. Learn more about Alberta's film, television and digital media industry at Alberta Film. "
Brokeback Mountain was set in Wyoming, not Montana
John Trudell
The Ultimate Brokeback Forum
http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php
Hi John - I am so happy you sent this piece of truth! I truly hope you get a response from them.
kathy
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Brokeback Mountain - Best Bits
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytZnnMNo1r0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytZnnMNo1r0)
I love this so much. I always cry. Always. :-*
p.s. (Is there some way that homophobic and disrespectful slurs can be deleted from the sites? I hate seeing them, with their ranting and raving and disrepect for Heath and Jake, also BBM in general).
Can we do anything to stop these crazies - it makes me furious.
kathy
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Can we do anything to stop these crazies - it makes me furious.
Unfortunately, I don't think so.
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Forum Member Inspires Canadian Government to Tell the Truth About Brokeback Mountain
Hi John - I am so happy you sent this piece of truth! I truly hope you get a response from them.
kathy
I got a reply today :)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi John,
Thank you for the information, I have looked into your enquiry and you are correct. The change has been made on the website.
Leanne Meters
Web Analyst
Information Management & Technology Services
Culture and Community Spirit
Tourism, Parks and Recreation
5th. Floor, 10055 - 106 Street
Edmonton, AB T5J 1G3
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Though set in Wyoming, Brokeback Mountain was filmed all in Alberta, featuring more than 20 different locations including Kananaskis, Fort MacLeod and Canmore. Learn more about Alberta's film, television and digital media industry at Alberta Film.
http://culture.alberta.ca/ (http://culture.alberta.ca/)
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Great job John!
So now all is good and well. :)
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Great job John!
So now all is good and well. :)
Not all good and well.
What about all the websites that have the famous mis-quote: "I wish I could quit you" ?
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Not all good and well.
What about all the websites that have the famous mis-quote: "I wish I could quit you" ?
Don't know. I guess there's nothing to be done about most of them.
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Geaux John!
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Not all good and well.
What about all the websites that have the famous mis-quote: "I wish I could quit you" ?
Can't you sleep just a little easier now, John?
I hope so! Congrats.
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Can't you sleep just a little easier now, John?
I hope so! Congrats.
Nope. Just getting started.
The Alberta website is still wrong!!
Though set in Wyoming, Brokeback Mountain was filmed all in Alberta, featuring more than 20 different locations including Kananaskis, Fort MacLeod and Canmore. Learn more about Alberta's film, television and digital media industry at Alberta Film.
Now I have to convince them that one of the filming locations was in New Mexico ;D
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:) Hi john - you got it changed to Wyoming - this is great! I wish you could change all other errors out there...
Now, what do you (we) do about including New Mexico?
kathy ;)
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In George-Michel Sarotte's Like a Lover, Like a Brother: Male Homosexuality in the American Novel and Theatre From Herman Melville to James Baldwin, he hits on a theme Sarotte says he finds often in books when there is to be gay love. That theme is a yellow ribbon. It is also seen in Proulx's Brokeback. Proulx describes their camp fire as "Yellow ribbons," and it carries over to the movie when their camp fire certainly does resemble yellow ribbons. Has anyone else read of this theme? Please let me know. If you are interested I will find Sarotte's reference.
If you believe you are burnt out on Brokeback, listen to the audio-book. It is seldom that a good story and a good reader are brought together.
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Welcome to the forum unanimous
I don't remember ever reading about yellow 'ribbons' in the s/s, but I think you're referring to this line:
The meadow stones glowed white-green and a flinty wind worked over the meadow, scraped the
fire low, then ruffled it into yellow silk sashes.
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In George-Michel Sarotte's Like a Lover, Like a Brother: Male Homosexuality in the American Novel and Theatre From Herman Melville to James Baldwin, he hits on a theme Sarotte says he finds often in books when there is to be gay love. That theme is a yellow ribbon. It is also seen in Proulx's Brokeback. Proulx describes their camp fire as "Yellow ribbons," and it carries over to the movie when their camp fire certainly does resemble yellow ribbons. Has anyone else read of this theme? Please let me know. If you are interested I will find Sarotte's reference.
If you believe you are burnt out on Brokeback, listen to the audio-book. It is seldom that a good story and a good reader are brought together.
I'm afraid I can't agree. There are a few lines left out (I know, picky, picky...but I want every word) And I think he reads Jack like a whiny girl.
The quoted line above (...yellow silk sashes) is one that is not on the audio book...
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I haven't listened to the audio book in years now, but I did enjoy it.
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I had not realized those important lines were missing. It's funny what we miss. Yellow silk sashes. That's it.
And, what role did Jack play in that relationship? He was the whinny one.
At one point I was listening to the audio-book and reading the story. I believed the reader's voice extremely sexy.
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Good to see you here, unanimous :). I've listened to the audiobook a couple of times and liked it, and yes, it did in a strange way highlight different phrases and themes - using different pathways in the brain, I suppose.....
I didn't know of the idea of the yellow ribbon image.
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I had not realized those important lines were missing. It's funny what we miss. Yellow silk sashes. That's it.
And, what role did Jack play in that relationship? He was the whinny one.
At one point I was listening to the audio-book and reading the story. I believed the reader's voice extremely sexy.
don't get me started...
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Can someone tell me if this s/s (Novella) subject has been discussed: It was not Jack Twist's first time on the mountain. With all the hardships of the mountain he lists in the first bar scene, including the need for plenty whiskey, what caused Jack's return to Brokeback?
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unanimous, I think --Basically, he needed a job! :)
Here are links to where the subject has been discussed (and can be discussed again):
Opening Scenes (http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=166.840)
or possibly --
All other scenes including Truck Scenes, Thanksgiving Scenes, Alley Scenes, etc. (http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=1054.1920)
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"Years on years they worked their way through
the high meadows and mountain drainages,
Horse-packing into the Big Horns, Medicine Bows,
South end of the Gallatins,
Absarokas, Granites, Owl Creeks,
The Bridger-Teton Range,
the Freezeouts and the Shirleys,
Ferrises and the Rattlesnakes,
Salt River Range, into the Wind Rivers over and again,
the Sierra Madres,
Gros Ventres,
The Washakies, Laramies,
But never returning to Brokeback.
I believe the last line says a bit more than one might see at first glance. It reminds me of Wordsworth's sad line "Though nothing can return the hour of splendor in the grass, of glory in the flower."
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But never returning to Brokeback.
Life imitates art.
Jake recently said that he can't watch Brokeback Mountain, and he said Michelle feels the same way.
At the AMPAS screening in L.A. 2 years ago, Diana Ossana treated us to an on stage interview and Q&A. She was there at the theater before the film started, but she couldn't watch it.
I invited Diana to the December event at the Autry, and she told me that she still can't bring herself to watch the movie because the whole experience was so personal.
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Truly poignant. I do not watch as much as I'd like. The audio-book I listen to often because of the crispy clean writing.
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I haven't watched the movie since the AMPAS screening, and I won't see it again until December at the Autry.
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FindingBrokeback has the transcript of the August 2008 interview/Q&A with Diana.
http://www.findingbrokeback.com/Interviews/Ossana/Ossana1.html (http://www.findingbrokeback.com/Interviews/Ossana/Ossana1.html)
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"Years on years they worked their way through
the high meadows and mountain drainages,
Horse-packing into the Big Horns, Medicine Bows,
South end of the Gallatins,
Absarokas, Granites, Owl Creeks,
The Bridger-Teton Range,
the Freezeouts and the Shirleys,
Ferrises and the Rattlesnakes,
Salt River Range, into the Wind Rivers over and again,
the Sierra Madres,
Gros Ventres,
The Washakies, Laramies,
But never returning to Brokeback.
I believe the last line says a bit more than one might see at first glance. It reminds me of Wordsworth's sad line "Though nothing can return the hour of splendor in the grass, of glory in the flower."
This was a Topic of the Week discussion back in December 2009:
http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=38436.msg1742643#msg1742643 (http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=38436.msg1742643#msg1742643)
The topic is closed and archived, but feel free to post replies here.
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What an emotional whallop of an impact BBM had on my heart andmind - it doesn't end.
But I don't believe I want it to end; I love it, and the impact does not leave me.
kathy :(
p.s. I don't think words spoken could ever be better than Heath and Jack. That beautiful screenplay...acting.................
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A recording (in segments) of Rodney Giles reading the short story can be found here, at the bottom/beginning of the list of uploads. These were taped while he was reading the story at the gathering in Estes Park, Colorado in 2007.
http://www.youtube.com/user/fritzkep#p/u
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In all seriousness, when one writes a short story every word counts. As I pointed out in an earlier post, when Proulx says that it was Jack's second summer on the mountain, it was something other than the sheep and hardships that brought his return, not even the need of a job. I believe those words tell us that Jack had at least some same sex experience. In the beginning of the movie, when Jack is checking-out Ennis in the mirror, he was gauging the availability or willingness of Ennis to fill the role of that person he shared the mountain with the summer before.
I believe it is the same with the phrase "But never returning to Brokeback." Proulx did not write, "But they didn't go back to Brokeback. Here, I believe, she lets us know that no matter how hard they tried, "Years on years," the experience they shared on Brokeback Mountain could never be duplicated and Ennis and Jack understood it could never be again. That is why they did not go back.
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I am sure that guy reading on YouTube is good, but the commercially released version is read by a professional named Campbell Scott. Truly great.
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Well, for what it's worth, Rodney Giles is a professional actor, too.
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Oh yes, the "Yellow silk sashes" are there in the audio-book.
Has the "With the help of a clear slick and a little spit . . ." been discussed?
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Shall I say to the moment, "Abide, you are so beautiful..."
"You ever been with another man? Jack?"
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Shall I say to the moment, "Abide, you are so beautiful..."
Genau.
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I am listening to the music from Brokeback Mountain, Emmylou Harris singing "A Love That Will Never Grow Old."
There are few loves that I know of like that, except the love of Ennis and Jack. I know I will forever love their love.
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Well, for what it's worth, Rodney Giles is a professional actor, too.
I like both readings.
Rodney does better on a lot of the passages, and CS does better on some.
There is also an audio only recording by Rodney, but I don't know if it's online anymore. Brokeback Mountain Radio played it a few times.
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Oh yes, the "Yellow silk sashes" are there in the audio-book.
Has the "With the help of a clear slick and a little spit . . ." been discussed?
Well, the line has been quoted several times, but I don't remember either the slick or the spit being analyzed.
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Has the "With the help of a clear slick and a little spit . . ." been discussed?
unanimous, yes!
But it can be discussed again.
Specific elements of the story have their own threads for discussion. You can go to the thread for discussing First Night in the Tent (http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=192.3960)
Look at the board "Scene by Scene." That is generally where we discuss in depth aspects of the story, even if they are from the Short Story, as they compare with the movie.
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As you know, I am the new guy. Please, be gentle. Being the FNG to this discussion I see Ennis' use of a condom as a new aspect of the story, never really thought-out by me.
Their first summer on the mountain was 1963. While most of you guys were not born, I was already grown and in the full swing of things. Not many "slicks" were being used. (Forgive our ignorance. We had no clue.)
But Proulx is no ignorant. She writes with purpose.
Having Ennis put on a condom was well thought out and deliberate. But it raises two questions. Why did Ennis carry a condom to the mountain, and since he brought a condom, why did he not also bring lube? Well, his spit can be contributed to field expediency. One cannot carry everything in such a situation, so use what's on hand. (Pun)
I cannot find humor in this story, but there are lessons. Annie, thank you for the lesson.
"The spit has not been analyzed." Now, that is funny. I am thankful for that, also.
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Proulx read an hour’s worth of her memoir at Fowler Hall and answered questions from students afterward. She explained her reasoning behind making the protagonists of “Brokeback Mountain” cowboys.
“If you live in the West, you know the most revered occupation is the cowboy ... it is the symbol of refined masculinity,” Proulx said. “What a lot of readers don’t understand is the characters in ‘Brokeback Mountain’ – the story, not the movie – are not cowboys, they are wanna-be cowboys. Just because you wear a big hat and ride a horse, it does not make you a cowboy.” [boliding added]
Interesting distinction -- IMO the movie didn't add any faux glamour to the characters' lives, other than the good looks of Heath and Jake. I'd be interested to hear how she thought the movie depicted them as "real" cowboys.
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Well, for what it's worth, Rodney Giles is a professional actor, too.
Rodney read BBM aloud right before the memorial service for Heath and Jackie two years ago. Though I still prefer the film, it was a memorable experience for all of us present.
BTW, I'm not sure if this has already made the rounds, but Rodney was in the hospital recently. He's now at home, which is currently in Overland Park, Kansas (metro KC area).
Sorry about the OT notice.
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Just saw Keith in Lords of Dogtown. He did a couple of jigs in that movie that sure resembles the dance that Jake does in Jarhead, except Keith had his clothes on.
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As you know, I am the new guy. Please, be gentle. Being the FNG to this discussion I see Ennis' use of a condom as a new aspect of the story, never really thought-out by me.
Their first summer on the mountain was 1963. While most of you guys were not born, I was already grown and in the full swing of things. Not many "slicks" were being used. (Forgive our ignorance. We had no clue.)
But Proulx is no ignorant. She writes with purpose.
Having Ennis put on a condom was well thought out and deliberate. But it raises two questions. Why did Ennis carry a condom to the mountain, and since he brought a condom, why did he not also bring lube? Well, his spit can be contributed to field expediency. One cannot carry everything in such a situation, so use what's on hand. (Pun)
I cannot find humor in this story, but there are lessons. Annie, thank you for the lesson.
"The spit has not been analyzed." Now, that is funny. I am thankful for that, also.
Actually, I'm pretty sure "clear slick" doesn't refer to a condom, but rather to pre-cum. So she's saying the only lube Ennis had to use was pre-cum and spit.
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Dat makes more sense. Boy, am I getting old.
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Disciplining Desire: the Fluid Textuality of Annie
Proulx’s “Brokeback Mountain”
Mark John Isola, Wentworth Institute of Technology
The metaphor of the clear slick socializes the sexual telling by veiling the contents of the sexual tale. The narrative focus remains on the
metonymically rendered penis, and the location of penetration, which via a hermeneutic of suspicion is quite present, is subordinated to an
anthropomorphic direct object: “entered him.” This obscures the rectum by refusing to specifically mention it. Accordingly, the narrative
negotiates the reader’s homo/sexual anxiety, which was expectedly feverishly high just one year after the development of protease
inhibitors.
First published in 1997, “Brokeback Mountain” may be chronologically set before the emergence of the AIDS epidemic, thereby
sparing it the contentious charge of eroticizing unsafe sex; however, Proulx’s narrative is inevitably delimited, if not deformed, by the
epidemic. As such, it risks invoking the contemporary specters surrounding homo/sexuality, particularly as they were detected by Lo
Bersani’s questioning the burgeoning status of the rectum as a grave in the Age of AIDS
There may be no condom in the tent scene, but there is plenty of lube, for its protagonist is as transgressive in the world of the narrative as he is in the world of the narration, and this bi-directional writing and reading complication is negotiated in the narrative’s structure and content with a fluid motif.
As Ennis’ wife Alma obliquely notes, a transgressive nonprocreative recreational sexuality lies at the heart of Ennis’ character:
“And under that, thought, anyway, what you [Ennis] like to do don’t make too many babies” (31). Alma’s understanding is symbolically
echoed in Ennis’ name, which can be interpreted as a wet metaphor. The name “Ennis,” which is nearly a homonym for the word anus, invokes an
island in the Celtic naming tradition, and the surname “del Mar” translates readily in several romantic languages to mean “of the sea.”
This naming, which simultaneously invokes the location of the anus as well as an island, suggestively symbolizes Ennis’ sexually transgressive
character. The narration of similar characters has been historically marginalized in the history of American publishing, especially when it
comes to describing the sex act behind the sexual subjectivity, and such writing has often been labeled pornographic and has often been charged
with obscenity. Proulx’s deployment of a fluid textuality, as in the tent sex scene, spares the narrative the contentious charge of prurience to
which it would be prey, if not prone, if the act of anal penetration was narrated using more revealing quotidian sexual language like erection,
penis, cock, asshole, etc. On the level of the narrative’s content and structure, the metaphor of the “clear slick” negotiates a controversial sex
act, a proscribed sexuality, and the location of the rectum, particularly as this thorny trio holds the potential to invoke the specters of passive
recreational anal sex in the Age of AIDS.
http://ojs.ub.gu.se/ojs/index.php/njes/article/viewFile/118/122 (http://ojs.ub.gu.se/ojs/index.php/njes/article/viewFile/118/122)
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^^^^^^
I think the reason Jack and Ennis kept going to the mountains, was to get away from queer theory. If they'd had the dinero, they'd have gone to the South pole.
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Brokeback Mountain: The Celluloid Closet Case
In adapting literature, even short stories, the audience knows that there are sacrifices to be made. Since literature is a medium that primarily consists of words and film is one where the visual is crucial, there are obvious changes to be made to make the text more accessible to film-goers. Over the years, it would seem that by now studio executives would be getting something right. Sadly, this is not always the case. Stakes need to be heightened for film and the exposition and occasionally internal thought need to be cut down, but largely the end result remains the same. However, on occasion there are films that bear nothing more than a passing resemblance to their source material, even instances where the only similarity is that the two share the same title. However, it is particularly offensive when a beautiful short story is turned into a film for reasons other than its exceptional story. The particular atrocity I’m referring to is that of Brokeback Mountain, originally written by Annie E. Proulx for The New Yorker in 1997 and directed for the screen by Ang Lee in 2005. The original short story is a compassionate account of two men’s love affair which plays out through the course of their lives. Ang Lee’s account of the story stays faithful to the events of the short story, but being that it is a film, loses most of the emotional complexity of the characters. Although Proulx felt that her source material was done justice, it is my personal belief that Brokeback Mountain should be understood merely as a product of its time and not as some great beacon of hope for the gay community.
Brokeback Mountain is a complex movie. While it is true that it was one of the first high-grossing films with two mainstream actors willing to play gay, it also must be understood as a political and almost exploitative look at homosexuality. Its origins, in writing, are filled with good intentions, but its pathway to being made forces me to question the motives of the studios and the filmmakers themselves. Meanwhile, when it finally was made it capitalized on the political attitudes of the time to make money, something that I still wish didn’t shock me as much as it did. Finally, and perhaps most importantly, this film is often praised for breaking boundaries, which it certainly did. However, it also played it safe in many regards, particularly the marketing and the illustration of Jack and Ennis’s relationship. While the film certainly does have its finer attributes, I feel it’s important to understand it as a pawn in a larger game that still has yet to be played out.
The full blog post can be found here:
http://selfproclaimedmegalomaniac.blogspot.com/2010/06/brokeback-mountain-celluloid-closet.html?zx=90c9e3502ed454fa (http://selfproclaimedmegalomaniac.blogspot.com/2010/06/brokeback-mountain-celluloid-closet.html?zx=90c9e3502ed454fa)
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:) Hi bcj - RE your replies #784 and #786 today --
Heavens, I can't believe what these bastards >:D printed.
Whoever these "columnists" or "authors" are that wrote these two disgusting pieces of bunk certainly do not now and never will see or understand the beautiful and superb fim Brokeback Mountain is. It clearly is an agenda and purpose of theirs to put it down.
They are a couple of bastards and as such should be ignored and noted as clearly anti-BBM. What's their agenda anyway?
Reminds me of the disgusting anti-BBM campaign waged deliberately by ampas >:D and their stooges about three weeks before their "awards" in Feb. 2006.
How I wish these pieces of trash could be stopped before publication. If I had the power to do it, I would.
kathy >:( >:(
p.s. You notice one of them is such a coward he does not sign his(?) name and goes to a blog?? Cowardly jackass.
And the other one - Isola (Wentworth Inst. of Technology - what does technology have to do w/BBM anyway??) - is as much as a jackass as the unnamed one.
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Alternative views and diverse opinions and, certainly, just plain stupidity, should be nipped in the bud at all costs.
It is so sad. :'(
G
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Well, I don't think it is bad to disagree with something that has been printed or written by know-it-all, so-called "journalists". I thought it was understood that we could. Let's face it, "journalists" and "writers" are never right all of the time. In my local paper, there are complaints every day about almost all of them.
I truly do not think these two "columns" or whatever you call them are worth the paper they are printed on. And I certainly believe they are truly anti-BBM in their snide and rather insulting remarks.
kathy
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Well, I don't think it is bad to disagree with something that has been printed
Agreed. However disagreement might be construed as being a bit different from "stopped before publication".
Anyway, the name of the author of the blog pretty much sums up the content and tone of the article.
As for Mr. or Dr. Isola, I fear only he and his thesaurus know for sure what in the world he is talking about.
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As for Mr. or Dr. Isola, I fear only he and his thesaurus know for sure what in the world he is talking about.
thank you!
I'm almost afraid to search for his essay “Blood, Urine, and Pre-cum: the Polemical Poetics of Annie Proulx’s ‘Brokeback Mountain’”
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Agreed. However disagreement might be construed as being a bit different from "stopped before publication".
Anyway, the name of the author of the blog pretty much sums up the content and tone of the article.
As for Mr. or Dr. Isola, I fear only he and his thesaurus know for sure what in the world he is talking about.
Yes - we certainly do agree on this. I've got to admit that when I read both so-called "articles", my immediate reaction was truly ??? ???
kathy
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thank you!
I'm almost afraid to search for his essay “Blood, Urine, and Pre-cum: the Polemical Poetics of Annie Proulx’s ‘Brokeback Mountain’”
Bwaaa! :D :D :D
I know, I know. Good lord John, did you try to read that drivel?
"After all, a writer does not necessarily have to be gay—or
male—or American—to attempt the expression of a gay male American
subjectivity. Success here depends on the pen, not the penis or the
passport."
huh?
I am afraid the poor guy is choking on his own "aquatic trope". ;)
(I could swear someone else has invoked this Isola dude? Does anyone remember?)
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Bwaaa! :D :D :D
I know, I know. Good lord John, did you try to read that drivel?
yes I tried.
I just assumed it was a joke, that he was making fun of BBM fans who tend to over-analyze the story. :D
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I really should not have tried to read those jackasses' >:D "articles". I became so angry & upset.
But - I never thought it (they) was a joke. I knew immediately they were idiot anti-BBM jackasses - one a complete idiot and the other a complete coward idiot who has to blog.
It's hard to know that there is still such trash being put online. Maybe I'm too sensitive when it comes to our beloved BBM, but I must say this: Curse them both. >:D They deserve it.
kathy >:( >:(
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Alternative views and diverse opinions and, certainly, just plain stupidity, should be nipped in the bud at all costs.
It is so sad. :'(
G
Well said, Gary. :)
We can't have counter-opinions, can we?
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...nevertheless, I want to thank BCJ for posting those two links.
(a) Brokeback Mountain: The Celluloid Closet Case
I was intrigued about the amount of what could becalled bile this article seemed to have provoked, so took the time to read it in its entirety, and found it to be worthy of comment.
According to the US First Amendment, unless I'm mistaken, the author is not only entitled to his opinion but free to publicise it wherever, and whenever, he wants.
That said, I didn’t find anything in the article (leaving aside the political references, with which I’m unfamiliar) about which I’d raise an eyebrow, with two possible exceptions:
• his use of the word “atrocity”—a less emotive word could have been a more suitable choice for his otherwise rational thesis; and,
• perhaps, in his final sentence—“...it’s important to understand [the film] as a pawn in a larger game that still has yet to be played out.”
But I particularly liked his question (regarding conservatives’ protests forcing “average Americans to ask themselves”): “What are they getting so worked up about?” :)
I found that many of the writer’s points, overall, had merit.
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(b) http://ojs.ub.gu.se/ojs/index.php/njes/article/viewFile/118/122
An illuminating and thought provoking essay, touching on several points which were, no doubt, and if my memory is correct, discussed by Mini-A, et al, some time ago.
A few quibbles, though:
The author states, on page 42, that “Earl is found in a waterless irrigation ditch;” and, on page 43, that the ditch is “dessicated.”
I recall some discussion with CSI on this point and our eventual agreement was that, as I recall, that as Proulx doesn’t mention the presence of water (“... they found Earl dead in a [sic] irrigation ditch”) her choice of “irrigation” presupposes the ditch as actually containing water; otherwise it would be a mere “ditch.”
A moot point, perhaps.
The other issue is on page 38: Ennis’s “refusal to embrace Jack face-to-face by hugging him behind during their final parting...”
Clearly an error, not only as both men continued to meet after they’d left the mountain, but also, as they eventually descended the mountain together, the embrace could have only occurred earlier than the time of that joint descent.
Nevertheless (and admitting I became a little befuddled when Freud and Lacan appeared), the writer’s points generally struck a chord.
His references to the narrative’s two kitchen scenes, and to the Twist’s bathroom, raised issues which are worth further consideration here (if they haven't already).
Finally, I liked the points he raised about Proulx’s handling[?] of Ennis and Jack’s first sexual encounter, and of their time at the Motel Siesta.
I’ve always found her avoidance of overt reference to the mechanics and byproducts of (unsafe) male-to-male anal sex to be not a little intriguing. >:D ;)
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I found that many of the writer’s points, overall, had merit.
I did not.
I also did not find anything "snide or insulting" regarding either the film or the SS. As a matter of fact, it is rather obvious that "megalomaniac" is rather fond of both.
He is basically attacking the "business" end of show business, however and his arguments do not hold up. The film follows the SS in terms of mood, style, and thematic intent in every aspect. The fact that the "marketing' of the film did not embrace the homosexual content as explicitly as the author might have liked perhaps has some merit though the same can be said for many mainstream film marketing campaigns.
The fact that the script was not produced for several years is hardly cause for the alarm that "megalomaniac" attempts to sound. Hollywood is not in the business of producing product for the sole purpose of advancing social agendas or enlightening the great unwashed.
Yes, the American lunatic religious right wing-nuts attacked the film. Well, duh!
There is nothing new in "megalomaniac's" comments but there is certainly nothing anywhere near an attack on either the film or the SS.
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(b) http://ojs.ub.gu.se/ojs/index.php/njes/article/viewFile/118/122
An illuminating and thought provoking essay, touching on several points which were, no doubt, and if my memory is correct, discussed by Mini-A, et al, some time ago.
Ah yes, thank you Paul. I knew Isola rang a distant and discordant bell.
The "water trope" as a staple of homosexual literature remains peripherally interesting but even Isola, as I have discovered, has abandoned the topic as a subject for
his dissertation.
Wise decision, in my opinion. ("Academic Whores and Publishing Pimps..." sounds much more fun.)
Again, certainly nothing snide or insulting regarding either the film or the SS in his remarks and I will refrain from castigating him for teaching at a school that has the word "technology" in its moniker.
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Finally, I liked the points he raised about Proulx’s handling[?] of Ennis and Jack’s first sexual encounter, and of their time at the Motel Siesta.
I’ve always found her avoidance of overt reference to the mechanics and byproducts of (unsafe) male-to-male anal sex to be not a little intriguing. >:D ;)
quote from that essay:
-----------------------------------
Proulx’s deployment of a fluid textuality, as in the tent sex scene, spares the narrative the contentious charge of prurience to
which it would be prey, if not prone, if the act of anal penetration was narrated using more revealing quotidian sexual language like erection,
penis, cock, asshole, etc.
----------------------------------
Which makes no sense when you consider what A.P. actually wrote:
Ennis ran full throttle on all roads whether fence mending or money spending, and he
wanted none of it when Jack seized his left hand and brought it to his erect cock.
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Which makes no sense when you consider what A.P. actually wrote:
Ennis ran full throttle on all roads whether fence mending or money spending, and he
wanted none of it when Jack seized his left hand and brought it to his erect cock.
Yes, exactly, John.
And I am not sure how much more quotidian one can get than the following:
got to his knees, unbuckled his belt, shoved his pants down,
hauled Jack onto all fours and, with the help of the clear slick and a little spit, entered
him,
It is certainly not porn but it ain't Jane Austen either. ;)
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Something that really bugs me is when people misquote the most famous line in the movie.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Recent movie quotes that rank with the best in history
I wish I could quit you.
-Brokeback Mountain (2005)
Related quote from movie history: “We’ll always have Paris.”
What made Brokeback Mountain work wasn’t so much the conflict of western/gay storylines was the fact that it was a pure love story, regardless of context. Star-crossed lovers is an internal story, but delivered with the casual yet devastating drawl of the now deceased Heath Ledger, it will last forever.
Read more: http://www.tynansanger.com/#ixzz0qI9FpXtU (http://www.tynansanger.com/#ixzz0qI9FpXtU)
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Recent movie quotes that rank with the best in history
LOL, good heavens, John.
HOW do you find this stuff?
As a side note, my two sons,both film freaks, have developed a language of their own which consists mainly of dialogue from movies.
There are times when they might as well be speaking Akkadian. :D
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LOL, good heavens, John.
HOW do you find this stuff?
I have a secret application on my computer called 'Google'. ;D
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Ethan Stanislawski commented on the article with this:
Not sure whether this will be a “Play it again, Sam,” situation, because I feel that every time I hear it quoted it’s “I wish I could quit you.” I could be wrong though; purely anecdotal.
Read more: http://www.tynansanger.com/2010/06/recent-movie-quotes-that-rank-with-the-best-in-history#comments#ixzz0qIX646oh (http://www.tynansanger.com/2010/06/recent-movie-quotes-that-rank-with-the-best-in-history#comments#ixzz0qIX646oh)
which is perfect because the author (Ethan Stanislawski) uses another related quote from Casablanca
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which is perfect because the author (Ethan Stanislawski) uses another related quote from Casablanca
Poor Ethan, he's two for two.
One more and well, you know.
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so maybe I shouldn't point out the misquote from Milk ? :D
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so maybe I shouldn't point out the misquote from Milk ? :D
No, leave the poor guy alone.
Casino Royale is wrong as is There Will Be Blood.
This argues for some sort of entrance exam prior to be allowed to start a blog! ;)
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No, leave the poor guy alone.
Ok. I'll stick with beans fixin' BBM misquotes.
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i've been looking for this everywhere...
some special effects done in the movie, backed by the Shawshank soundtrack...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPw5plmkd6Q (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPw5plmkd6Q)
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^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Thanks!
I found this a couple of years ago, I think on the website of the company that did the FX and have been unable to locate it since.
I didn't now it was up on youtube.
G
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The company website is still online, but the videos on the site are too small and hard to find.
http://www.buzzimage.com/ (http://www.buzzimage.com/)
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Quote from bcj today (partial):
"What made Brokeback Mountain work wasn’t so much the conflict of western/gay storylines was the fact that it was a pure love story, regardless of context. Star-crossed lovers is an internal story, but delivered with the casual yet devastating drawl of the now deceased Heath Ledger, it will last forever."
Wow - I couldn't agree with you more on this!! Thx, john, for posting these things.
And - how could anyone not remember "I wish I knew how to quit you"?
kathy :)
p.s. And - I will always believe that those two "authors" (??) - Isola and the no-name coward blogger - are jackasses. >:D
What they wrote is pure trash and anti-BBM all the way. >:(
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And - how could anyone not remember "I wish I knew how to quit you"?
The same way they remember "Play it again, Sam". They never saw the movie.
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The same way they remember "Play it again, Sam". They never saw the movie.
John - That is exactly what I thought (never saw it) from the beginning!
kathy
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I found that many of the writer’s points, overall, had merit.
I did not.
Perhaps I should have been less generous... ::)
I also did not find anything "snide or insulting" regarding either the film or the SS. ~
Neither did I.
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quote from that essay:
-----------------------------------
Proulx’s deployment of a fluid textuality, as in the tent sex scene, spares the narrative the contentious charge of prurience to
which it would be prey, if not prone, if the act of anal penetration was narrated using more revealing quotidian sexual language like erection,
penis, cock, asshole, etc.
----------------------------------
Which makes no sense when you consider what A.P. actually wrote:
Ennis ran full throttle on all roads whether fence mending or money spending, and he
wanted none of it when Jack seized his left hand and brought it to his erect cock.
His statement still stands up, though.
Proulx provides only the barest of necessary information about what's actually going on.
"He wanted none of it when Jack seized his left hand and brought it to his limp member" would have been, as the initiating event, a nonsense. :D
And she doesn't tell us with what part of his body Ennis “entered him,” either.
I guess she just wanted to get the entire thing out of the way as quickly as possible, and move on.
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And she doesn't tell us with what part of his body Ennis “entered him,” either.
Indeed, and as we often remind ourselves, AP provides us with the “long bones” of the story and we, the reader, are expected to supply the appropriate “soft tissue”. Quite apt in this case.
Taking into consideration Ennis’ implied homosexual inexperience (not to mention his shared patriarchal heteronormative privilege), in conjunction with the absence of any sort of instruction manual, it is still possible, I believe, for the reader to eliminate certain apertures (aural and olfactory for example) as the locus of penetration
Furthermore, Jack’s exclamation of the distinctly non-quotidian “guns goin’ off” at a rather climactic moment in the scene negates the assumption that the exclamation is either nugatory or in compliance with “Isolan” aquatic trope deployment (much less fluviographic poetics) though the latter is, perhaps, best addressed separately.
Indeed, Jack’s apparent oral communication facilities imply, (in the absence of any evidence that he is a student of Demosthenean elocution techniques,) his oral aperture to be free from obstruction.
By process of apertural elimination, this leaves the reader with scant choice but to settle upon the decidedly prurient prone “asshole”.
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^^^^^^^^^^^^
Indeed, and as we often remind ourselves, AP provides us with the “long bones” of the story and we, the reader, are expected to supply the appropriate “soft tissue”. Quite apt in this case.
Agreed. But she does, even with the long bones, provide room for lots of possible interpretations.
Taking into consideration Ennis’ implied homosexual inexperience (not to mention his shared patriarchal heteronormative privilege), in conjunction with the absence of any sort of instruction manual, it is still possible, I believe, for the reader to eliminate certain apertures (aural and olfactory for example) as the locus of penetration.
While she doesn’t specify apertures, she does leave sufficient space for a reader to work out for him/herself into what part of Jack Ennis is entering.
You suggest that the reader could possibly eliminate the aural and olfactory apertures (to which I’ll refer in a moment), but omitted the visual.
Although it’s new to me, me being who I am (I really must get out more), I do believe that the phrase “fucked in the eye” is used, according to the Urban Dictionary, to describe “the feeling that someone has literally removed your eyeball, and inserted their genitalia into your gaping socket for their own enjoyment, with minimal concern for yourself.”
Well, that sort of “fits” with what’s, presumably, going on.
As far as ear or nasal penetration are concerned (I mention penetration because that describes what happens when someone enters something [e.g. He entered the room; he entered Jack]), there are, apparently, some who actually indulge in such antics.
(I refrain from going into details, for obvious reasons.)
And I doubt an instruction manual is needed, human nature being what it is. *
Who would have thought Proulx was covering all bases with her skeletonic writing... :D
Furthermore, Jack’s exclamation of the distinctly non-quotidian “guns goin’ off” at a rather climactic moment in the scene negates the assumption that the exclamation is either nugatory or in compliance with “Isolan” aquatic trope deployment (much less fluviographic poetics) though the latter is, perhaps, best addressed separately.
I don't think anyone would assume his exclamation was “nugatory.”
But considering what’s (presumably) being fired (unless the chamber was empty, of course) from Jack’s “gun” (and we’re not told if anything was fired anyway), it could be any number of possible liquids and/or semi-liquids (tears, nasal discharge, saliva, earwax and so forth...) or solids (where was the rifle at this moment?).
Indeed, Jack’s apparent oral communication facilities imply, (in the absence of any evidence that he is a student of Demosthenean elocution techniques,) his oral aperture to be free from obstruction.
I detect a setup, here. :o
Proulx clearly writes that Jack’s “gun’s goin off” was “choked.”
:D :D :D
By process of apertural elimination, this leaves the reader with scant choice but to settle upon the decidedly prurient prone “asshole”.
I tend to disagree; it seems that there’s more to Proulx’s writing than meets the “eye.”
She’s just too, too vague and elusive to provide her readers with an accurate picture of what’s actually going on. ;)
------------
* I recall a rather unorthodox method of entering someone in Warhol's Flesh for Frankenstein. ::)
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In the s/s, after Ennis nails the postcard above his beloved shirts:
"He stepped back and looked at the ensemble through a few stinging tears."
"'Jack, I swear-' he said, though Jack had never asked him to swear anything and was himself not the swearing kind."
What would Ennis want to swear, except his undying love for Jack Twist.
It wrenches the heart right out of my chest.
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^^^^^^^^^^^^Agreed. But she does, even with the long bones, provide room for lots of possible interpretations.
Apparently.
Although it’s new to me, me being who I am (I really must get out more), I do believe that the phrase “fucked in the eye” is used,
This is what I love about the DC forum. There is always something new to be learned.
While I am intimately familiar with the concept of the "mind fuck", its visual cousin is, heretofore, foreign to me.
I am assuming, however, that the "eye fuck" is similar in effect to being forced to view hidden video footage of
Larry King and Betty While copulating.
I detect a setup, here. :o
Proulx clearly writes that Jack’s “gun’s goin off” was “choked.”
Good catch.
Just when one is confident that AP, and the mystery that is BBM, has finally been deciphered, the woman
inserts another bit of quicksilver.
* I recall a rather unorthodox method of entering someone in Warhol's Flesh for Frankenstein. ::)
Oh dear, I thought the WHO had declared this scurge eradicated and now I find that it
has popped up down under.
The horror.
G
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In the s/s, after Ennis nails the postcard above his beloved shirts:
"He stepped back and looked at the ensemble through a few stinging tears."
"'Jack, I swear-' he said, though Jack had never asked him to swear anything and was himself not the swearing kind."
What would Ennis want to swear, except his undying love for Jack Twist.
It wrenches the heart right out of my chest.
Unanimous, your posts really fit much better in the "Scenes" section of the forum, there has been quite a bit of discussion about what Ennis means by "I swear."
I have given you several links, it's really easy to navigate "Scenes."
You would find a lot more discission of your posts there.
Another alternative might be "favorite quotes" (which can be found here in the "film and book" neighborhood.)
Now that your feet are wet, it's the perfect time to branch out to the specific threads.
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My apology. This board seemed so friendly.
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My apology. This board seemed so friendly.
The board is friendly, unanimous. There are topics and I am trying to help you get more responses by telling you the best place to post with your specific topics.
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My apology. This board seemed so friendly.
Unanimous, this board is friendly.
Ellen is not trying to stop you from posting. She is simply directing you to other threads where they are having similar conversations, so that perhaps you may get more replies to your posts.
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It's obvious that many of you have never observed domesticated animals, well, doing it. A real Ennis and a real Jack would have seen this all of their lives. When Annie Proulx writes that no instructions were needed, all she was doing was acknowledging this fact.
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Constant reader, do you mean domesticated animals have anal sex?
Silly question - never mind, I know what you mean.
I think we all understand Ennis didn't need an instruction manual, and if there was any doubt, Annie makes it clear in the short story.
:)
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Wasn't it also pure instinct? We do tend to know what to do feed our emotional needs.
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Proulx clearly writes that Jack’s “gun’s goin off” was “choked.”
Good catch.
Thank you.
Now I’ll bounce the ball back.... ;D
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Just when one is confident that AP, and the mystery that is BBM, has finally been deciphered, the woman inserts another bit of quicksilver.
I wonder though, whether Proulx’s minimalist prose doesn’t actually drive readers to conclusions which she may not intend (I refer here specifically to the story’s sex-in-the tent scene).
Her somewhat cryptic description of what actually occurs opens the way to more than one interpretation.
I’ve mentioned elsewhere that she tends to have what could be called a rather puritan approach (or words to that effect) as regards male/male sexual activities;
and so she shies clear of being too nosy (or well-informed?) about what men can actually get up to.
The sex in the Motel Siesta scene occurs literally “offstage.”
She devotes two sentences to a description of the room’s atmosphere and the location and arrangement of her protagonists’ bodies, leaving it to "the perceptive reader" to join the dots.
If anal intercourse has occurred there’s not much evidence to go by, just one word, and that's really nothing to go by.
Prior to this we have a reference to Ennis rolling Alma over and doing “quickly what she hated.”
(Which could be just about anything, although she later whines to herself about the fact that, whatever it is, “it doesn’t make too many babies.”
Proulx yet again avoids outlining what “this thing” actually is.)
There’s similarly no direct evidence in the story’s tent scene (the first time in the story that anything of a sexual nature is referred to, if I’m correct) that what most readers assume, so I gather, did actually occur.
“Ennis jerked his hand away as though he’d touched fire, got to his knees, unbuckled his belt, shoved his pants down, hauled Jack onto all fours and, with the help of the clear slick and a little spit, entered him.
They went at it in silence except for a few sharp intakes of breath and Jack’s choked “gun’s goin off,” then out, down and asleep.”
Isolating these two sentences to consider them solely as a description of a physical activity is interesting.
What are they actually doing?
The only things we can be unequivocally sure about in the first sentence is that Ennis “jerked his hand away, got to his knees, unbuckled his belt, shoved his pants down, hauled Jack onto all fours...(and) entered him.”
Their physical positioning, however, is unclear—is Jack facing toward, or away, from Ennis?
Similarly ambiguous is who produced “the clear slick” and “a little spit.”
Also unclear is with what Ennis entered Jack, although “shoved his pants down” could be a clue. :D
But into what part of Jack did Ennis enter him; and why are Jack’s three words “choked?”
I wonder... ??? ??? ???
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I recall a rather unorthodox method of entering someone in Warhol's Flesh for Frankenstein. ::)
Oh dear, I thought the WHO had declared this scurge eradicated and now I find that it
has popped up down under.
The horror.
That great little movie popped up circa mid-70s, here. :)
The Baron: “To know death, Otto, you have to fuck life in the gallbladder.”
(Or is it the other way around? ;D)
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Constant reader, do you mean domesticated animals have anal sex?
Actually, it is not unheard of. When breeding a larger male dog to a smaller female, it happens that Part A sometimes fits into Part B rather than the intended Part C. The guys don't ever seem to mind but the gals are NEVER happy about it.
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I wonder though, whether Proulx’s minimalist prose doesn’t actually drive readers to conclusions which she may not intend (I refer here specifically to the story’s sex-in-the tent scene).
Her somewhat cryptic description of what actually occurs opens the way to more than one interpretation.
I’ve mentioned elsewhere that she tends to have what could be called a rather puritan approach (or words to that effect) as regards male/male sexual activities;
and so she shies clear of being too nosy (or well-informed?) about what men can actually get up to.
While I think it is true that AP does not even allude, in any part of the SS, to oral sex, I am not sure to what this can be attributed.
I admit it does seem odd.
The sex in the Motel Siesta scene occurs literally “offstage.”
She devotes two sentences to a description of the room’s atmosphere and the location and arrangement of her protagonists’ bodies, leaving it to "the perceptive reader" to join the dots.
In my opinion it is fairly easy to connect the dots, however. She does have Jack compliment Ennis on his performance by concluding that it must be due to his riding skills. This is certainly a strong implication of intercourse.
If anal intercourse has occurred there’s not much evidence to go by, just one word, and that's really nothing to go by.
Prior to this we have a reference to Ennis rolling Alma over and doing “quickly what she hated.”
(Which could be just about anything, although she later whines to herself about the fact that, whatever it is, “it doesn’t make too many babies.”
Proulx yet again avoids outlining what “this thing” actually is.)
Rolling Alma over and "doesn't make too many babies" is pretty clear. Actually one would have to stretch what little information we have to conclude anything other than anal intercourse.
There’s similarly no direct evidence in the story’s tent scene (the first time in the story that anything of a sexual nature is referred to, if I’m correct) that what most readers assume, so I gather, did actually occur.
“Ennis jerked his hand away as though he’d touched fire, got to his knees, unbuckled his belt, shoved his pants down, hauled Jack onto all fours and, with the help of the clear slick and a little spit, entered him.
They went at it in silence except for a few sharp intakes of breath and Jack’s choked “gun’s goin off,” then out, down and asleep.”
Isolating these two sentences to consider them solely as a description of a physical activity is interesting.
What are they actually doing?
The only things we can be unequivocally sure about in the first sentence is that Ennis “jerked his hand away, got to his knees, unbuckled his belt, shoved his pants down, hauled Jack onto all fours...(and) entered him.”
Their physical positioning, however, is unclear—is Jack facing toward, or away, from Ennis?
Similarly ambiguous is who produced “the clear slick” and “a little spit.”
Again, what information we are given most closely fits with anal intercourse than with any other explanation.
In addition, they do wake up the following morning genital to buttock. Nothing conclusive in that but still...
Finally,and correct me if I am wrong, "clear slick and spit" are not as important a prerequisite to oral sex as they might be to anal intercourse
and we are told that Ennis enters Jack, a description that is not really normative for describing oral sex.
Also unclear is with what Ennis entered Jack, although “shoved his pants down” could be a clue. :D
A very clear clue in my opinion. Certainly not graphic but hardly ambiguous unless one simply insists on making it so.
But into what part of Jack did Ennis enter him; and why are Jack’s three words “choked?”
I wonder... ??? ??? ???
I don't wonder. I really don't.
When all the elements are viewed as a whole, they all add up to anal intercourse.
To belabor the point, I think, is to miss the point.
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??? ??? I just don't "get" what the previous posts are meant to say. What is the point in even arguing this (paul029)?
For heaven's sake, of course it's anal intercourse in the FNIT.
And as I said before, anyway, E&J during that glorious BBM summer, during the reunion, and anywhere else during all those years they met each other, would do it any which way they can as all lovers do. Just an example - Ennis would want to be inside of Jack as much as Jack would want Ennis to be inside of him. (Mods: I don't mean to repeat myself, but I just couldn't let this one ??? go).
"To belabor the point is I think to miss the point". (courtesy of garyd).
kathy
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Oh dear, I thought the WHO had declared this scurge eradicated and now I find that it
has popped up down under.
The horror.
That great little movie popped up circa mid-70s, here. :)
The Baron: “To know death, Otto, you have to fuck life in the gallbladder.”
(Or is it the other way around? ;D)
No, as frightening as I find it, you have it in the correct order.
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??? ??? I just don't "get" what the previous posts are meant to say. What is the point in even arguing this (paul029)?
For heaven's sake, of course it's anal intercourse in the FNIT.
And as I said before, anyway, E&J during that glorious BBM summer, during the reunion, and anywhere else during all those years they met each other, would do it any which way they can as all lovers do. Just an example - Ennis would want to be inside of Jack as much as Jack would want Ennis to be inside of him. (Mods: I don't mean to repeat myself, but I just couldn't let this one ??? go).
"To belabor the point is I think to miss the point". (courtesy of garyd).
kathy
You know, Kathy, here is the thing.
There are many who adore Stephen Schwartz but there are others who prefer Stephen Sondheim.
There are even a few who appreciate both.
In other words, while it is fun to be "POP-u-lar", it is also
"not talk of God or the decade ahead,
that allows you to get through the worst.
It's I do and you don't and nobody said that and
who brought the subject up first."
Ya know what I mean?
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I don't know; is it that each person has his/her own opinion? Well, that is true.
But, honestly, this subject - is it necessary at all to debate it so? Maybe it's better that I just keep my mouth shut and my feelings for the beautiful BBM to myself.
kathy
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Certainly not graphic but hardly ambiguous unless one simply insists on making it so.
And doesn't he just love to >:D.
(Dear (((Paul))), consider yourself hugged :-*)
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^^^^^^^^^^^^
Dear ((((Sara))), hugs are always welcomed.
Much nicer than brickbats. :) :) :)
But, back to the grindstone...
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No, as frightening as I find it, you have it in the correct order.
Thanks.
But it also, rather perversely, works the other way: “To know life, Otto, you have to fuck death in the gallbladder.”
;D ;D ;D
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While I think it is true that AP does not even allude, in any part of the SS, to oral sex, I am not sure to what this can be attributed. ~
Tact?
I admit it does seem odd.
Sorry—unsure of your meaning here.
In my opinion it is fairly easy to connect the dots, however. She does have Jack compliment Ennis on his performance by concluding that it must be due to his riding skills. This is certainly a strong implication of intercourse.
Agreed. But that’s not in the tent, it's in the Motel, where Proulx's first (and only?) use of the word “shit” indicates that something anal has occurred.
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Again, what information we are given most closely fits with anal intercourse than with any other explanation.
In addition, they do wake up the following morning genital to buttock. Nothing conclusive in that but still...
Finally,and correct me if I am wrong, "clear slick and spit" are not as important a prerequisite to oral sex as they might be to anal intercourse and we are told that Ennis enters Jack, a description that is not really normative for describing oral sex.
Despite my penchant for the Urban Dictionary, gary, I’m unfamiliar with “normative” descriptions of quite a few types of human sexual acts.
But Jack’s oral aperture could have been dry. :D
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A very clear clue in my opinion. Certainly not graphic but hardly ambiguous unless one simply insists on making it so.
‘Twas not meant seriously, of course.
(Hence the smiley.)
~ When all the elements are viewed as a whole, they all add up to anal intercourse.
To belabor the point, I think, is to miss the point.
No belabouring was intended.
Just some pondering some alternatives.
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??? ??? I just don't "get" what the previous posts are meant to say. What is the point in even arguing this (paul029)?
I was unaware of any argument; I thought it was a discussion between gary and myself, an airing of our views.
For heaven's sake, of course it's anal intercourse in the FNIT.
Oh dear. The last thing I want to do is to exasperate anyone.
I stand rebuked. :'( :'( :'(
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And as I said before, anyway, E&J during that glorious BBM summer, during the reunion, and anywhere else during all those years they met each other, would do it any which way they can as all lovers do. Just an example - Ennis would want to be inside of Jack as much as Jack would want Ennis to be inside of him. (Mods: I don't mean to repeat myself, but I just couldn't let this one ??? go).~
If I understand you correctly, you’re suggesting that (by “any which way they can”) Ennis and Jack didn’t restrict themselves to only one way of doing “it?”
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Rolling Alma over and "doesn't make too many babies" is pretty clear. Actually one would have to stretch what little information we have to conclude anything other than anal intercourse.
Well, it could be the female version of a “rusty trombone.”
(Thank goodness for the Urban Dictionary.)
;D ;D ;D
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I was unaware of any argument; I thought it was a discussion between gary and myself, an airing of our views.
Oh dear. The last thing I want to do is to exasperate anyone.
I stand rebuked. :'( :'( :'(
a discussion between gary and yourself would be in PMs.
and kathy is right, of course it is anal sex in FNIT.
Even tho' I'm mod I understand the joy of a good romp through the clover of possibilities and word play, but it's true this kind of discussion is confusing to others who may be visiting our site with the desire to discuss Brokeback Mountain.
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If I understand you correctly, you’re suggesting that (by “any which way they can”) Ennis and Jack didn’t restrict themselves to only one way of doing “it?”
Of course.
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Have any of you ever seen a bull entering a cow or a boar entering a sow? Or more appropriately in this case a ram entering a ewe? It's part A into part B and I'm sure that was Annie Proulx's mental image (male on male version) when she wrote that passage.
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yes Constant Reader but I'm still not sure why that is illuminating here?
We know Ennis is aware of horse-sex and bovine-sex and sheep-sex, but presumably he knows the difference between a vagina and an anus.
Men and women can have straight sex from behind, so I'm not sure what you're saying. Not possible for Ennis and Jack, right?
The first time with Jack was a new experience for Ennis, I think that's the point.
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Two Thoughts: the first is that I think I am a pretty good judge of what naive 19-year-old, ill-educated males might be thinking in such a situation and secondly, I would love to know the thought process that went into Annie Proulx's writing on this subject. As a gay male reading the words, I find them both so right and so wrong. But can you imagine anyone ever asking her to explain what she was thinking?
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Two Thoughts: the first is that I think I am a pretty good judge of what naive 19-year-old, ill-educated males might be thinking in such a situation and secondly, I would love to know the thought process that went into Annie Proulx's writing on this subject. As a gay male reading the words, I find them both so right and so wrong. But can you imagine anyone ever asking her to explain what she was thinking?
So what is it that you find 'so wrong', CS?
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The mechanics: it ain't that easy...
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The mechanics: it ain't that easy...
and what do you find right?
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The setting and the circumstances.
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I don't know if this is the right place to post, but I can't find a better one. Please redirect me if I'm wrong.
Last night I watched the classic movie "From Here to Eternity" on cable TV.
To die for handsome Monty Clift falls in love with Donna Reed's character Loreen - who later admits that her real name is Alma!!
Is this a coincidence - or a nod from Annie to an important movie from our youth?
I know that Loreen and Lureen is not exactly the same, but as far as I could tell pronounced the same way.
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^^^^^^^^^
I like the idea of Loreen/Lureen and Alma being interchangeable, with the names indicating different aspects of the same personality.
Proulx could have been familiar (subconsciously if not consciously) with the film, or even the book. :)
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It is an important film, and possibly an even more important American novel, I would be very surprised if Annie Proulx didn't take it into account, even as you say, Paul, subconsciously.
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It is an important film, and possibly an even more important American novel, I would be very surprised if Annie Proulx didn't take it into account, even as you say, Paul, subconsciously.
It might be interesting to see how, or even IF, AP would answer this question.
Loreen, Lureen, and Alma are all very common names and James Jones incorporates the names for rather obvious reasons
in his sketch of the Donna Reed character.
Prior to the onset of WWII, many men who served in the military did so out of economic necessity. They were victims of the Depression and the military provided, at least, food and shelter. They were, however, not treated at all well by their superiors. According to Jones, many who were stationed in Honolulu would "supplement' their incomes by engaging in sexual activity with older homosexual civilian men. Maggio, the character portrayed by Frank Sinatra, is meant to represent this element. These men did not consider themselves to be homosexual.
On the other hand, there existed a significant number of homosexuals in the military and their story is represented by the character of Bloom. Bloom recognizes his sexuality, is horrified and ashamed, not so much by his homosexual activity, but by the fact that he realizes he enjoys the sex.
In the original manuscript of the book, which still exists, Jones goes into extended detail regarding homosexuality. He was forced to abridge much of this information prior to publication.
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Being a European, I hope you'll forgive, that I didn't know the movie was based on a novel by James Jones.
The literary aspect makes a closer link to AP in my opinion.
But, if there is a link, then why?
I guess we'll never know ? ???
Thanks for your replies
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It might be interesting to see how, or even IF, AP would answer this question.
Loreen, Lureen, and Alma are all very common names and James Jones incorporates the names for rather obvious reasons
in his sketch of the Donna Reed character.
Prior to the onset of WWII, many men who served in the military did so out of economic necessity. They were victims of the Depression and the military provided, at least, food and shelter. They were, however, not treated at all well by their superiors. According to Jones, many who were stationed in Honolulu would "supplement' their incomes by engaging in sexual activity with older homosexual civilian men. Maggio, the character portrayed by Frank Sinatra, is meant to represent this element. These men did not consider themselves to be homosexual.
On the other hand, there existed a significant number of homosexuals in the military and their story is represented by the character of Bloom. Bloom recognizes his sexuality, is horrified and ashamed, not so much by his homosexual activity, but by the fact that he realizes he enjoys the sex.
In the original manuscript of the book, which still exists, Jones goes into extended detail regarding homosexuality. He was forced to abridge much of this information prior to publication.
I remember being very impressed with the book when I read it many, many years ago. I have broken up for the summer from college today, I might just see if I can get hold of a copy and have a re read. It would be interesting to see what impression it makes after a life time of experiences,
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I remember being very impressed with the book when I read it many, many years ago. I have broken up for the summer from college today, I might just see if I can get hold of a copy and have a re read. It would be interesting to see what impression it makes after a life time of experiences,
Interesting idea, Jess. I may do the same.
g
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Come to think of it - Loreen is a pretty colorfull name compaired to plain old Alma - sorry all you Almas out there (my name is Peter, pretty plain itself).
When Prewitt (Monty) meets Loreen she is a hostess in a nightclub. Even in a bl/w movie thats colorful too.
When Monty by the end seeks her help because he is badly wounded, it is in her apartment where she is not a flamboyant cocktail waitress, but herself....plain old Alma, and tells him so.
All this could fit the BBM movies two female characters. Problem is that A. Proulx did not directly describe Lureen as colorful or Alma as plain.
Bloom? No Bloom in the movie I think.
Must get the book....too.
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Just to set the record straight, Lorene in Jones's novel is a prostitute at the New Congress Hotel.
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A question was posted on Yahoo this week:
In Brokeback Mountain, one of the guys says 'Heres a stick, you might want to bite down on it'. What is the meaning behind this line?
http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100628082116AArjrTR (http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100628082116AArjrTR)
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Random blog found today:
---------------------------------------------
There’s very little that comes close to the wondrous, disorienting feeling we experience when emerging from a darkened movie theatre into the brutal light of a sunny day, our bodies fooled into nocturnal reflexes by the artificial darkness and, perhaps, the dream-like nature of film projection. We advance half-blind into a dangerous world rich with demands – gone is the passive anonymity of the cinema - and possibility. We adjust, feeling our way cautiously, to an environment where narrative is not pre-determined, and begin again the difficult process of writing our own life story.
Exiting a movie theatre in the morning – more so than late at night when the responsibility of debrief can be surrendered to sleep, delegated to the subconscious - is an invitation to take a cold hard look at one’s life (in light perhaps of the lives freshly depicted on screen) and remind oneself that unlike a character in a film, the screenwriter's puppet, one is largely responsible for one’s destiny.
more...
http://www.mattriviera.net/2010/06/life-in-100-films-brokeback-mountain.html (http://www.mattriviera.net/2010/06/life-in-100-films-brokeback-mountain.html)
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Stepping out of the cinema that morning felt like stepping out into a new world, a world, put simply, with Brokeback Mountain in it.
This line from his article really resonated with me. I can't count the number of times I've thought of an event from my life in the past decade and tried to recall which year it occurred by asking myself, "Was that pre- or post-Brokeback?"
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I like this line:
Whatever the myths we (and the zeitgeist) create around the game-changing films we see, It can be useful to transport oneself back to that purest of moments, when we first stepped out of the theatre squinting into the sun-bleached street, and to recall these original, unadulterated feelings, the sense perhaps in which the world was rich with possibility and – inspired by a film, why not? – we could walk out into it and write our own rules.
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This is the thought that I totally agree with. I've posted about this a few times over the years, and i know not everyone agrees, but this is the way I felt and still do:
The press – the well-intentioned, liberal press – rallied around this message, appropriating Brokeback Mountain as a universal love story and rejecting notions of gay specificity. Many reviewers hastened to deride the “gay cowboys movie” description as reductive, offering, in erroneously praising the universal nature of the protagonists’ tragedy of repressed love, an even more reductive reading of the film. Reading those reviews I felt robbed of the elation I’d experienced leaving the cinema that first morning. I was deprived of the immense relief I’d felt, that finally this unique story had been gotten right without compromise or populist attempts at oversimplification.
Matt Riviera who wrote the article also posted in one of his responses:
The self-loathing of the queer closet is not common to doomed loves/lives. Saying of Ennis and Jack's that theirs is a universal tragedy ("they just happen to be men") is sending them right back inside the cinematic closet.
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Brokeback Mountain was both specific and general. Of course it was about two gay men, of course it was an overdue story that had been waiting to be told. A revelation of the truth to all people gay and straight. But it was also about mortality and love, denial and emotion, and that affected all of us.
It was not just gay people who emerged blinking back into real life with tear streaked faces wondering what had hit them.
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A question was posted on Yahoo this week:
In Brokeback Mountain, one of the guys says 'Heres a stick, you might want to bite down on it'. What is the meaning behind this line?
http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100628082116AArjrTR (http://uk.swers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100628082116AArjrTR)
**But - this line is not in the ss or film. What is Yahoo doing by posting this "line" anyway - it's a made up line. Are they trying to be funny or something - or worse - derogatory about BBM? >:(
I just don't get it at all**. ???
kathy
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**But - this line is not in the ss or film. What is Yahoo doing by posting this "line" anyway - it's a made up line. Are they trying to be funny or something - or worse - derogatory about BBM? >:(
Yes, I think that was the intention of the person who posted the question.
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Stepping out of the cinema that morning felt like stepping out into a new world, a world, put simply, with Brokeback Mountain in it.
This line from his article really resonated with me. I can't count the number of times I've thought of an event from my life in the past decade and tried to recall which year it occurred by asking myself, "Was that pre- or post-Brokeback?"
I do the same. Brokeback is my frame of reference timewise nowadays.
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Brokeback Mountain was both specific and general. Of course it was about two gay men, of course it was an overdue story that had been waiting to be told. A revelation of the truth to all people gay and straight. But it was also about mortality and love, denial and emotion, and that affected all of us.
It was not just gay people who emerged blinking back into real life with tear streaked faces wondering what had hit them.
Well said, Jess!
Yes, specific and general, that's the unique greatness of Brokeback Mountain.
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I do so understand why our gay friends here think that finally their story had been told, and why they need to own that. But........... I'm not gay, and Brokeback Mountain hit me like a train.
It certainly opened my eyes to the lives and contribution to society made by our gay friends, and just how many gay people there were/are in all walks of life, but also there are many features of the story and the film which are universal and affect all humanity.
Maybe the ultimate legacy of the whole experience is that it brought us all together in love, friendship and support of each other.
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I do so understand why our gay friends here think that finally their story had been told, and why they need to own that. But........... I'm not gay, and Brokeback Mountain hit me like a train.
It certainly opened my eyes to the lives and contribution to society made by our gay friends, and just how many gay people there were/are in all walks of life, but also there are many features of the story and the film which are universal and affect all humanity.
Maybe the ultimate legacy of the whole experience is that it brought us all together in love, friendship and support of each other.
You Bet!
But what upsets me is when I read reviews and forum posts where people say something like "It's not a gay story, it's a love story". As if the two are mutually exclusive.
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I agree, and it certainly showed us straight people that love between two people of the same sex is no differerent in its essentials from love between people of different sexes. It seems to me now that I must have been incredibly stupid not to have grasped that in its entirety before, but despite knowing it, it took Brokeback to make me feel it!
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Setting the record straight:
The word bite does not appear in the short story.
The word stick appears once: ...poking the flame with a stick...
Stick shows up in the plural once: ...tossing sticks on the fire...
Other references are:
...dirty spoon sticking out of the can..."
...checked with a horn dipstick...
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Screenplay:
"I'll stick with beans"
"We got a stick this out"
"stick close to them sheep" (Deleted Scenes - Truck Scene)
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You Bet!
But what upsets me is when I read reviews and forum posts where people say something like "It's not a gay story, it's a love story". As if the two are mutually exclusive.
IMO it's a gay love story. Some of the elements in it can be generalized, some can't. Internalized homophobia e g, can not be generalized. But the result of it, in this case, can be true for other people/situations too.
That's the greatness of BBM, that despite it's specific subject matter, there are so many levels and aspects of it that the movie affects also straight people, just as hard.
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Pride Films and Plays Chicago
We are looknig for performers of all kinds to perform scenes or monologues from great gay screenplays for our benefit at Halsted/Hydrate on August 22. If you have ever wanted to perform a great movie monologue, or have a great scene up your sleeve, send an email to PrideActor@gmail.com with August in the subject line. Thanks!
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Reunion Steps in Disrepair...
Today Mouk, royandronnie and Oregondoggie made it up onto Brokeback/Moose Mountain. they stayed awhile at the I Ain't Queer Site. Rebuilt the cairn with the faded Ennis/Jack written on the top slab. Someone had left a small bouquet of Alpine flowers. Sure more than a one-shot thing we got goin here....
On a serious note, there is the matter of the deterioration of the Reunion Steps at Ft. Macleod.
Peeling paint. Steps beginning to rot. WHAT is happening? Seems strange given the owners' acknowledgement that there are frequent Brokeback visitors.. Could Brokeback tourists
be possibly annoying? The owner did say they mostly don't come into his shop... not that there is a lot of photo merchandise.
Since the town of Ft. McLeod has made an obvious effort to make the streets look attractive (flowers hanging... re-adjusted curbs) perhaps they might be interested in asking him to keep the stairs presentable. The stairs will last about one more year, in our opinion.
Perhaps the Brokeback fans could make him an offer he wouldn't refuse. It will be a tragedy to lose the stairs.
On another note: weeds now grow where Jack first got out of his truck. Posters are gone from both Ranchman's in Calgary and the beef jerky place in Cowley. And of course the bus depot in Ft. McLeod is closed....
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Screenplay:
"I'll stick with beans"
"We got a stick this out"
"stick close to them sheep" (Deleted Scenes - Truck Scene)
and didn't jack order sticky rice in the deleted thai restaurant scenes? ;)
that's sad about the state of the reunion stairs. and i wonder if the locals are getting annoyed with the brokeback tourists. you never know. you'd think they'd like the legacy of the film, but seeing as it's a 'gay' story, maybe they're over it now and want to move on. they should have filmed the scene in the castro. we wouldn't have to worry about it none. i'm just glad they never filmed twilight in my neighborhood and don't have to dodge rabid team cullen fans......... >:D
perhaps the stairs could be moved somewhere. an interior location in a movie memorabilia museum. there's a recreation of roddy mcdowell's studio city bathroom at the max factor in hollywood. there's a photo of bette davis on top of his toilet tank. she signed it, "what a dump!"
and it's too bad they can't reopen the bus station cafe... they might get famous for their apple pies, they could offer the "cassie burger" and the original "carl dog".
regarding the BBM posters being taken down (were they signed? maybe they were stolen by fans!)... i wonder how many people complained about them. you know how those vocal homophobes can be, unafraid to say what pisses them off... i understand that on the word cloud making www.wordle.net website, people (teachers) email to ask the site owner to remove the "SEXSMITH" font, because "children" use the website. ::)
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regarding the BBM posters being taken down (were they signed? maybe they were stolen by fans!)... i wonder how many people complained about them. you know how those vocal homophobes can be, unafraid to say what pisses them off... i understand that on the word cloud making www.wordle.net website, people (teachers) email to ask the site owner to remove the "SEXSMITH" font, because "children" use the website. ::)
A couple of years ago there was a problem with internet filters blocking sites like "Essexville, Michigan" and "Middlesex", etc.
There's a unique BBM poster in the Different Light Bookstore on Castro Street, I've never seen one like it anywhere else. It's still hanging up. You can see it as soon as you walk in the door.
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What does the poster look like? Is it real different...I would love to see it.
kathy
(I'm sad to hear that any BBM posters have been taken down. Damn!!)
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I don't know where to post this, but I'll try here in the general discussion:
There was a post a week or two ago that stated "even AP had changed her views on the (BBM) story".
I never heard this - could someone enlighten me or direct me to the correct forum? It must have been a misunderstanding on my part; just can't believe she would ever change her views on BBM.
kathy ???
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John, that's sad news about the stairs in Fort McLeod, and the posters.
I guess as time goes by, more and more of the movie sites will change and/or deteriorate.
I wish there was a way we could preserve them for present and future brokies.
It's such an extraordinary experience to actually be there and see them with your own eyes.
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I understand what you're saying Sonja, but realistically, what can be done?
I'm sure there are many many films who have had the locations and sets disappear.
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Maybe someone at Travel Alberta would be interested in this.
Travel Alberta is the official destination marketing organization for the province of Alberta. Funded by the Government of Alberta through the four per cent Tourism Levy on visitor accommodation, we promote Alberta as a tourist destination regionally, nationally, and internationally to increase the number of visitors to and within Alberta
Fort Macleod, 30 minutes west of Lethbridge, provided settings for Brokeback Mountain and the new film Passchendaele, to be released in late 2008. The town of 3,000 has maintained its historic Main Street, most of which dates back to the early 20th century to complement the replica of its namesake, the 1880s-era North West Mounted Police fort.
As you drive into town, follow the signs that lead you to Main Street. You can park near the Red Coat Inn, where casts and crews for the two movies stayed, between 3rd and 4th Avenues across from IGA. We’ll start the walking tour here.
* Walk down Main Street, turn right on Third Avenue (AKA Archie McLean Avenue), where you’ll find the Photo Plus/The Source Apartment Building. From the street, you’ll see the staircase leading to Ennis and Alma’s apartment. A poster commemorates the controversial Brokeback smooch scene.
http://www.travelalberta.com/en/ConsumerContent/Pages/Reel-Adventures-Saddles-and-Sidetrips.aspx (http://www.travelalberta.com/en/ConsumerContent/Pages/Reel-Adventures-Saddles-and-Sidetrips.aspx)
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THE IMPACT OF THE COLD WAR ON THE REPRESENTATION OF WHITE MASCULINITY IN HOLLYWOOD FILM
By
WILLIAM MICHAEL KIRKLAND
A Dissertation submitted to the Program in Interdisciplinary Humanities in partial fulfillment of the
requirements for the degree of Doctor of Philosophy
Though many post-Cold War films such as The Manchurian Candidate challenge the traditional representation of heterosexual, white masculinity, there are two in particular that ably conclude this study. The first example is Brokeback Mountain (2005). The West and the frontier had such a great impact on American culture and had enabled Hollywood to co-opt the western genre for political purposes. It also served as the ideal place where heterosexual, white masculinity could be idealized. That masculinity, though often violent and racist, served as the model masculinity for decades. Brokeback Mountain contests the notion of how that ideal white masculinity had to also mean heterosexual masculinity. By using the western genre to contest heterosexual, white masculinity, the film artistically challenges the norm much like how Midnight Cowboy and The Electric Horseman did.
http://etd.lib.fsu.edu/theses/available/etd-12172009-214822/unrestricted/Kirkland_W_Dissertation_2010.pdf (http://etd.lib.fsu.edu/theses/available/etd-12172009-214822/unrestricted/Kirkland_W_Dissertation_2010.pdf)
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(https://ultimatebrokebackforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ftaxine.com%2Ffullerspicer%2Fbbm0850.jpg&hash=b3651b34f29f3efd3b478dc697fd8a74bb37b384)
alma (thinking): oh dear... i better get the
landlord out here to have a look at those stairs.
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I don't know where to post this, but I'll try here in the general discussion:
There was a post a week or two ago that stated "even AP had changed her views on the (BBM) story".
I never heard this - could someone enlighten me or direct me to the correct forum? It must have been a misunderstanding on my part; just can't believe she would ever change her views on BBM.
kathy ???
i might be able to help you if you could direct me to your original source. i *think* i saw that post too. i think annie was just kvetching about all the madness surrounding bbm. people rewriting the story, sending her stuff, obsessing over it, plus all the references to BBM as if it's the only work she's done that counts. i think when she goes anywhere, the questions always turn to brokeback... you know, usual stuff that happens when you write something and it really stands out. in this case, it probably stood out mostly because the movie that followed her story was so fucking good. :D not saying that the short story isn't amazing, but you know how it goes. it "blows up"...
maybe it's like this: if i were a gay artist and spent years painting male nudes, and i did a female nude, and that single painting catapulted me to fame, and the image wound up on calendars and playing cards everywhere, and there were spin offs and spoofs.... and then, model that made it famous died....... i would probably be a bit irked. ;D
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I understand what you're saying Sonja, but realistically, what can be done?
I'm sure there are many many films who have had the locations and sets disappear.
most sets disappear for sure.... but not mt. rushmore, in north by northwest. ;)
what can be done? treat the stairs like the london bridge.
but the damn stairs off the owner and have them rebuilt somewhere else, like hello.... at the autry. or other movie museum. :D i'm sure the stairs would be cheaper than the shirts!
or just build a replica? nawww.. that's alike a stuffed tiger in a museum vs. a real tiger in a zoo. :P
i can't help but think that the reunion stairs are being ruined because rabid brokie fans go there and jump up and down for joy once they realize they're in the spot where ennis and jack stood. i bet that stairway's seen 6 tons of traffic since 2006, shoooooooooo. ::)
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i might be able to help you if you could direct me to your original source. i *think* i saw that post too. i think annie was just kvetching about all the madness surrounding bbm. people rewriting the story, sending her stuff, obsessing over it, plus all the references to BBM as if it's the only work she's done that counts. i think when she goes anywhere, the questions always turn to brokeback... you know, usual stuff that happens when you write something and it really stands out. in this case, it probably stood out mostly because the movie that followed her story was so fucking good. :D not saying that the short story isn't amazing, but you know how it goes. it "blows up"...
Moreover,
1) AP expressed other regrets over writing BBM, had in fact become fed up with the resentment/slights/gratuitous condemnation that she received from some groups of Wyoming-ites, e.g., the 'upright citizens brigades,' regarding the tortured picture her work painted about the state's denizens, particularly its ranchers... I believe she cited their 'abysmal behavior towards her as one of the factors in her decision to leave her beloved Wyoming...
-Seems ironic to me that the person who brought the poison of DRH to the forefront managed to get a taste of it, herself (?!)
2) Another change for AP was her attitude toward fiction writers who fall in love with their characters, which she originally thought was disgusting (don't recall the exact term she used).. AP later recanted, admitting in an interview that she had indeed fallen hopelessly in love her own characters, with, not one, but both BBM leads...
3) AP never regretted writing the story, or so she says, but later she came to regard it as a completely-closed chapter in her career, and wouldn't even consider writing a sequel/screenplay, not for love or money.. -She told Charlie Rose (?) that the whole process was just too hard on her and she felt she needed to leave BBM and move on... She wasn't a screenplay artist or a director (-what if she was? -- would that have made any difference?)...
4) There were other factors, too, I can't recall them at the moment...
maybe it's like this: if i were a gay artist and spent years painting male nudes, and i did a female nude, and that single painting catapulted me to fame, and the image wound up on calendars and playing cards everywhere, and there were spin offs and spoofs.... and then, model that made it famous died....... i would probably be a bit irked. ;D
-Good analogy! 8)
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There should be a "Save the Stairs" campaign amongst Brokies. I mean, how much could this cost, especially if some volunteered to salvage and store them, until there was a rightful permanent home?
I think it should be two-fold: cart off the original stairs, dis-assembled, and then treated for wood rot and stored; rebuild with replacement stairs, free of charge to the owner, for later tourists.
There are more than a few Brokies who live within 500 miles of that site, from the different forums, and, unless am totally witless, a project of that kind could be under $3,000, if care were taken to keep costs down.
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There should be a "Save the Stairs" campaign amongst Brokies.
I ran across a campaign to save the stairs in another website:
http://bbmfoundation.org/forum/index.php?topic=174.msg2772#msg2772 (http://bbmfoundation.org/forum/index.php?topic=174.msg2772#msg2772)
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I understand what you're saying Sonja, but realistically, what can be done?
I'm sure there are many many films who have had the locations and sets disappear.
I know.....
But to us, BBM is not like any other film, so I still wish something could be done.
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I don't think the stairs should be taken somewhere else and replaced.
They should be preserved for damage to the wood, and stay right where they are!
The experience of seeing them where they belong, both sets of stairs, the laundromat wall, the door, the parking lot, can never be the same in a different place. It's not just the stairs, it's the whole building and its surroundings!!
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:) Hello to gnash (reply #83 today) and AZ (reply #85 today):
Thank you both for your answers to my question/post on July 5th regarding whether AP had "changed" her views on BBM. Your replies are so enlightening and informative, and I agree with both of them wholeheartedly. As a matter of fact, you brought back to me statements that I remember Annie saying.
(No matter how hard I try, I cannot remember where I saw the "original source" post).
Thx again,
kathy :)
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^^^
You're welcome, kathy, and 'Thank you,' too...!
If you have the time you'll find some really fascinating insights about AP posted here on the Forum on her namesake thread: "ARTS & ENTERTAINMENT/Books, Periodicals & Literature/Annie Proulx (http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=629.msg214#msg214)."
<XXX!!>
-Stan
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:) Hi Stan --
Thank you and you are very welcome too! It's so kind of you.
I think I did read the link you posted re AP, but I'm going to look it up again.
kathy :)
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Re: the stairs and other filming sites.
We're talking about other people's property here....
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Doodler, that is understood. Any projects or plans would have to be accepted by the owners, and the way to make that more likely would be to offer a good deal.
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The 'Somewhere In Time" fans put up a plaque on Mackinaw Island years ago.
(https://ultimatebrokebackforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi275.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fjj282%2FSanFranciscoJohn%2F6c80cf4d-13a2-4351-9254-2b7e131d12d.jpg&hash=73fa686b968ac702dbc225ea1d7aaf07d156a778)
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(https://ultimatebrokebackforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi275.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fjj282%2FSanFranciscoJohn%2FDSC00465.jpg&hash=85e9c8cf5ad098acbd8b3937f22eef5b29192702)
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Neat! Next time I'm on Mackinac Island, I'll have to look that up!
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Neat! Next time I'm on Mackinac Island, I'll have to look that up!
You should check with the concierge at the Grand Hotel for the exact location.
Time and Tenderness - an article about the Somewhere in Time Weekend
Reprinted from "Traverse" Magazine, October 2002
Ever since the movie Somewhere in Time was filmed here 23 years ago, Grand Hotel and Mackinac Island have become a destination for fans of the movie—they come like pilgrims to relive the story of a man who falls in love with a woman in an old photo and travels back in time to find her. And for the past 12 years, the last weekend of the Grand's season has been reserved as a peculiar kind of homecoming for hundreds—cast, crew and fans alike—to gather and pay homage to the film that made them believe in the kind of love that has no boundaries.
Old friends reconnect; new attendees gawk. Finally, with a buzz of excitement, the guests leave the dining room and head to the hotel theater. We file in toward the seats past a collection of movie posters that read "Beyond fantasy. Beyond Obsession. Beyond Time itself...He will find her." It’s a film these people know by heart, and one Grand Hotel has been showing once or twice a week for the last two decades, but that doesn't lessen the thrill of tonight's screening, and especially tonight, for the movie will be illuminated on a bigger screen than most have ever viewed the object of their appreciation. The whispered greetings and rustling dresses quiet, and as the opening credits roll, spontaneous applause breaks out.
http://www.somewhereintime.tv/article1.htm (http://www.somewhereintime.tv/article1.htm)
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Maybe Larry or someone could approach the Browns to see if something could be done about the stairs. It's possible that they just can't afford it right now. Cindy Brown has said that they don't mind the fans visiting all the time.
There might also be a way to partner up with other organizations.
The building is the J.C. Edgar Building in Fort MacLeod.
Fort Macleod has preserved its many historic buildings
A walk through the community reveals a look at the architecture and character of Fort Macleod, and Alberta, at the turn of the century. The historic buildings in Fort Macleod were restored and preserved through the Main Street Program, an initiative funded by the provincial government in 1984.
“The people in the community over the generations were wise enough to realize what they have, and they have taken care of it,” Mayor Shawn Patience said. “We take more pride in the restoration of an old building than we do in the construction of a new one.”
At the corner of Main Street and Third Avenue, you can see two other historic buildings. To the north on Third Avenue is the J.C. Edgar Building, built in 1906 and now home to Photo Plus
http://www.fortmacleodgazette.com/Visitors%20Guide/visitors_guide7.htm (http://www.fortmacleodgazette.com/Visitors%20Guide/visitors_guide7.htm)
(https://ultimatebrokebackforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi275.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fjj282%2FSanFranciscoJohn%2FBrown02.jpg&hash=9bc26b3bab5cdaff405397519ed1e315ae581e9d)
picture stolen from FindingBrokeback.com ;D
http://findingbrokeback.com/Interviews/Brown/Brown.html (http://findingbrokeback.com/Interviews/Brown/Brown.html)
As always, for Brokeback production and travel information, visit FindingBrokeback.com (http://FindingBrokeback.com)
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(https://ultimatebrokebackforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi275.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fjj282%2FSanFranciscoJohn%2FP010028fL.jpg&hash=92f30526709918032fa19347c395eb8cdde67ac4)
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Here's a pic of the front of the building in 1985.
(https://ultimatebrokebackforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi275.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fjj282%2FSanFranciscoJohn%2FChineseLaundry.jpg&hash=452f222398663c42baa03e8ff3d2300bad531261)
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It would be in the interest of the whole town to repair the stairs, if people come from far and wide to see them, then they are probably using hotel rooms, buying food and drink, etc. in other words bringing in business and increasing the prosperity of the town.
Has anyone from the forum contacted the town council about this?
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A Conversation with Rodrigo Prieto
Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AP2ADjFEjls (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AP2ADjFEjls)
Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_685YKIBRxs (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_685YKIBRxs)
Part 3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UUQpjSL0NCk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UUQpjSL0NCk)
Part 4: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCmIU47iJB8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCmIU47iJB8)
Part 5: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWKuEhOEHhQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWKuEhOEHhQ)
Part 6: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZGEJF0dkbI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZGEJF0dkbI)
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A Conversation with Rodrigo Prieto
Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AP2ADjFEjls (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AP2ADjFEjls)
Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_685YKIBRxs (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_685YKIBRxs)
Part 3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UUQpjSL0NCk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UUQpjSL0NCk)
Part 4: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCmIU47iJB8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCmIU47iJB8)
Part 5: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWKuEhOEHhQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWKuEhOEHhQ)
Part 6: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZGEJF0dkbI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZGEJF0dkbI)
I'm too lazy tired to watch them all.
Can someone tell me in which one he talks about Brokeback?
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Watch the end of # 1, all of #2, and the beginning of #3 ^^^
Or just watch 1,2, and 3
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^^^^^^^^^
Ok. Thanks.
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http://www.altfg.com/blog/movie/splice-brokeback-mountain-audience-reactions/
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I found an interesting comment about Brokeback in a review of another movie:
In the final scene of the much-praised Brokeback Mountain, Ennis Del Mar (Heath Ledger) visits the parents of the man he loved, who has recently died. To emphasize how poor they are, the film shows a home with completely bare walls.
I understand what the author is trying to say, but I seem to remember several items hanging on the walls of the Twist home.
http://www.christiancentury.org/article.lasso?id=8624 (http://www.christiancentury.org/article.lasso?id=8624)
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And, honestly, that doesn't reflect poverty. The only thing on MY walls are calendars in the kitchen and bathroom. Oh, and smoke detectors.
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I found an interesting comment about Brokeback in a review of another movie:
I understand what the author is trying to say, but I seem to remember several items hanging on the walls of the Twist home.
http://www.christiancentury.org/article.lasso?id=8624 (http://www.christiancentury.org/article.lasso?id=8624)
**I don't remember the walls of the Twist home being completely bare either. There are a few things on them.**
How dare this Vineberg say "this is nonsense"? Who the devil is he?
So-called critics and/or journalists (?) just go further & further down in my book, which they have been doing for a very long, long time.
kathy
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I've watched the film about 105 times, but only once or twice in the past year.
It's so easy to stop after SNIT or the reunion trip.
And as SNIT fades out, I always close my eyes.
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I haven't seen the film since August 2008, but I have it memorized.
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Good point. It was the third film I'd memorized. First was Wizard of Oz, second was Music Man.
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I last saw it in Boston with Brokies. I suspect I'll see it again in December with Brokies.
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I am thinking so much of our wonderful film BBM. How beautifully done, Heath, Jake, E&J - everything.
It is the 3rd film I've memorized. The first is Gone With the Wind; the second is Lawrence of Arabia. I love them.
They all effected me very much, but I have never been effected so completely by a film as I was by BBM. Like being hit on the head with a wallop. That beautiful, lovely, sad film. I watched it again about a month ago; I love watching it.
kathy
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I last saw it in Boston with Brokies. I suspect I'll see it again in December with Brokies.
The last time I saw the film was at Andy's last year. I would love to see it again at the cinema with Brokies.
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I last saw it this May in Seattle with Brokies.
And before that last July in Alberta, also with Brokies.
I have no idea when the next time will be. Would love to go to LA in December.... :(
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Library of Inspiration: Brokeback Mountain
Annie Proulx knew exactly what she was doing in setting this story of forbidden love amidst the embrace of nature, far away from the eyes. Here, in a place not yet stained by the commotion and smog of city streets or the regurgitation of consumption, right or wrong has a way of defining itself. Everything is truth. The truth of the sun and stars and the miles of uninterrupted green. The thump of a lonely heart.
Ennis: If you can’t fix it, Jack, you gotta stand it.
To live with the knowledge that life is precious and short is a tricky enough proposal. But to then be reduced to just trying to endure it, to just stand it….
Regrets are in the ashes that are raining down forever; Forever, a fresh blanket of sadness that is always beyond words.
Full article here:
http://www.libraryofinspiration.com/film_2000s_brokebackmountain.htm (http://www.libraryofinspiration.com/film_2000s_brokebackmountain.htm)
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To bcj --
**Thank you for reporting this article about BBM. Library of Inspiration. It is wonderful, and truly had me in tears. A short article containing so much truth and insight.
"Forever: A fresh blanket of sadness that is always beyond words".
Ennis & Jack. Such a tragedy.**
kathy
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Article in the Trinity English Review
(https://ultimatebrokebackforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi275.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fjj282%2FSanFranciscoJohn%2FTrinity.jpg&hash=6a5378a4c777d7c9b222d6a79223c98bc4b7369b)
(https://ultimatebrokebackforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi275.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fjj282%2FSanFranciscoJohn%2FImage1-2.jpg&hash=1acd3f8be56f9ca536598ec074c891f63ce48c29)
http://www.trinity-school.org/_files/misc/100C1A77BC3600E79A3D380E30275D38.pdf (http://www.trinity-school.org/_files/misc/100C1A77BC3600E79A3D380E30275D38.pdf)
Trinity School is part of the Whitgift Foundation, founded in 1596 by John Whitgift, Archbishop of Canterbury. His legacy provides the School with outstanding facilities and an exceptionally extensive range of bursaries and scholarships, allowing pupils from a wide variety of backgrounds to benefit from an education at Trinity. It also established the Christian foundation on which the School is built.Today,Trinity warmly welcomes those of all faiths and none, although Christian values still inform and underpin all we do.
We value each pupil as a unique individual and work to ensure that all relationships in the School are based on mutual respect. We expect high standards of behaviour, founded on personal responsibility and self-discipline combined with genuine concern and compassion for others.
The outstanding pastoral care offered at Trinity means all pupils will receive carefully considered advice at every stage of their school career, tailored to their individual needs and circumstances. All students have a Tutor who they will see at least twice a day, who will listen, advise and help them to make and understand their own choice
http://www.trinity-school.org/page/?title=About+Us&pid=11 (http://www.trinity-school.org/page/?title=About+Us&pid=11)
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Not only is that an interesting article, John, it also allows me to tell you that the house my youngest daughter and her fiance are renting at present, backs onto the Whitgift School. I imagine it is quite expensive to attend, but it does look very good.
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http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/news/la-et-rutten-20100805,0,5567199.story
His description of walking Hollywood Boulevard alone after winning the Oscar for "Brokeback Mountain" is the book's climax and highlight.
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i like to bbm better then text. if every one had bbm the world would be a better place. :)
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i like to bbm better then text. if every one had bbm the world would be a better place. :)
:)
Welcome "modern"!
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:) Hi - I really don't know the proper forum to post this, so I'll try BBM general discussion 2.
Is anyone aware of how one could obtain the original BBM screenplay? Or drafts of the BBM screenplay? I've read that there are several leading up to the final draft by the writers, even the one the director uses, and a version showing any changes while filming, by the actors.
Can any member lead me in the right direction?
Thank you,
kathy
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Please check your PM's, Kathy.
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Will do!!
kathy :)
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CONGRATS BBM-M, KATHY!!!
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Oh, thank you so much, fritzkep!! I'm so pleased.
kathy ;D
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You're welcome! And just plain old Fritz will be fine!
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You bet, Fritz! (I was wondering if I could call you this myself...oh, well, great minds...)
kathy :)
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(https://ultimatebrokebackforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi275.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fjj282%2FSanFranciscoJohn%2FBBMito.jpg&hash=9b16b5b6d336d20a944d0a7230836a9114af866a)
The American Society for Cell Biology, based in Bethesda, Md., is using this postcard to entice scientists to send in cell-biology-related videos to its annual convention this winter, as well as to encourage journalists to cover it.
http://www.popsci.com/science/article/2010-08/mass-mailer-day (http://www.popsci.com/science/article/2010-08/mass-mailer-day)
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Cytologists are such a zany bunch.
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Jack Twist... Jack Asty! (amplified spermatogenic transcripts Y-encoded)
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That's way cool John!
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August 24 was Diana Ossana's birthday.
I sent her a little greeting card
(https://ultimatebrokebackforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi275.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fjj282%2FSanFranciscoJohn%2F39909_429484933902_800268902_4849461_8258077_n.jpg&hash=c20cbd08d6d9ea74ad5c8ea43c34482b98e6e65f)
Happy Birthday Diana from your Brokeback Forum Fans!!
Diana sent a reply to us:
Diana Ossana :
You're the reason we made this film...thank you, thank you, thank you.
All good things,
Diana
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Call for Papers
“Queer Love”
2010 Film & History Conference: Representations of Love in Film and Television
November 11–14, 2010
Hyatt Regency Milwaukee
www.uwosh.edu/filmandhistory
Final Deadline: September 15, 2010
AREA: Queer Love
Not so many years ago, a kiss between two men or two women on television or in a Hollywood movie was shocking, but images of two people of the same sex loving each other—in groundbreaking television shows such as Queer as Folk and The L Word and movies such as Brokeback Mountain and Milk—are gradually becoming a more visible part of the cinematic landscape. The real life love stories of same-sex couples are also becoming more visible. And with same-sex marriage now legal or being actively debated in many states within the U.S. and in many countries around the world, now seems a good moment to take a critical look at how gay and lesbian love has been represented in film and television history.
This area, comprising multiple panels, welcomes papers that investigate the idea of “queer love,” broadly speaking. How have representations of homosexual romantic and sexual relationships changed over the years? What is the relationship between representation of gay and lesbian romantic and sexual stories in popular film and television, and attitudes toward gay and lesbian individuals and the LGBT community in general? In other words, is there a relationship between representation and social change? What is the relationship between same-sex love stories and heterosexual love stories? Has the broader acceptance of gay and lesbian stories in all forms of media and society altered the nature of the love story more generally? In other words, what would it mean to say that the love story has been “queered”?
Papers might take any of a number of approaches—aesthetic or textual, historical, philosophical, cultural, psychoanalytic, semiotic, post-structural, post-colonial, gender or—of course—queer. Topics might include, but are not limited to the following:
• The legacy of Brokeback Mountain
• The representation of same-sex love and romance in film and/or television history
• The representation of gay, lesbian, bisexual, or transgender sex in film and/or television history
• Homosexual love in world cinema traditions
• Love, sex, and romance in television shows featuring gay or lesbian characters (e.g., Queer as Folk, The L Word, Will and Grace)
• Same-sex romantic subplots in television shows not primarily focused on gay or lesbian characters (e.g., Ugly Betty, Glee)
• Gay and lesbian love, sex, and romance in reality television
• Queer theory, love, and film
• Queer love, television, and politics
• Homoerotic subtexts in heterosexual love stories
• Queer love and genre: comedy, drama, sci fi, and more
• Fan love – audience response to television and movie characters/actors
• Straight viewers who love queer characters
• TV and film characters in fanfiction – gay and lesbian romance and slash fiction
Please send 200-word paper proposals to the area chair:
Pamela Demory, Ph.D.
University Writing Program
University of California, Davis
Davis, CA 95616
Email: phdemory@ucdavis.edu (email submissions preferred)
Panel proposals for up to four presenters are also welcome, but each presenter must submit his or her own paper proposal. For updates and registration information about the upcoming meeting, see the Film & History website (www.uwosh.edu/filmandhistory).
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I think Diana's reply to her birthday card is wonderful.
kathy :)
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http://www.courierpostonline.com/article/20100827/NEWS01/8270344/Real-life-cowboys-offered-hope-to-young-man-growing-up-gay-in-America
Bud owned a cattle ranch. Manuel was his foreman.
They built barbed-wire fences and rode the range together on horseback.
They also shared a bed.
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Ask the Flying Monkey
Q: My dad blew me away five minutes ago telling me that Undertow is now in movie theaters and that we should go watch it next week. We are talking very conservative parents here. In fact, I don't know if he's planning to bring my mom along or if he's planning to sneak away. Believe it or not, my mom has a bigger problem with my being gay than my dad. I've read the review of the film at AfterElton.com, so I want to watch it. The problem is, I don't want to take my parents to a movie that may portray gay men in a negative way in the eyes of conservative people. I don't want any spoilers, but should I take my parents to this movie? Is the movie so moving that they will see past the infidelity issue? And yes, I totally had an unforseen "Kurt Hummel's dad" moment with my very own father. I still can't believe it! – Carlos, Lima, Peru
A: That’s fantastic! I’m so happy for you. (But my mom also had a much more difficult time with my being gay than my dad. Sometimes I wonder how accurate those parental stereotypes are.)
The characters in Undertow are definitely not perfect: one character does have a wife, and he willfully lies to her, despite the fact that they have a small child together (FYI, there’s also a semi-explicit sex scene).
But that’s precisely the point of the movie: anti-gay prejudice makes people act in terrible, hurtful ways. We see the consequences of the closet, not just from the main character’s point-of-view, but also from his wife’s.
I found the movie incredibly moving, and it’s hard for me to understand how anyone could judge this character too harshly, giving the pressure he’s under. That said, plenty of people judged the characters in Brokeback Mountain harshly for “cheating” on their wives, so I guess people see what they want to see. I have a feeling I know what Dr. Laura thought.
Comments:
Posted by T (1814 points) (368 posts)on August 30, 2010 at 01:33pm
I disagree very VERY strongly about Brokeback Mountain. The two male characters ARE cheating on their wives, why the quote mark? Just because they were cheating with another man does not mean it was not cheating. And they SHOULD be judged very harshly by that. The movie to me was not just about Ennis and Jack`s "love" story, also very much about the horrible things they put their wives through. What they did was NOT right.
Posted by
Brent Hartinger (345 points) (1867 posts)on August 30, 2010 at 01:56pm
I'm not trying to give a cliched "blame society" answer here, but when you put those characters in the context of their lives -- where, the movie says very clearly they may very well be KILLED if they're openly gay -- it's not as simple as saying, "They're cheating on their wives." It's much more complicated than that. I'm not saying, "Yes! Go cheat! There's nothing wrong with cheating!" But I'm saying that it is impossible to single out those actions without providing the context of a society that was literally making them insane criminals. I'm sure there were African Americans who did "inappropriate" things to survive in the times of slavery and Jim Crow, and Jewish people did similar things during the Holocaust. But given the historical context, it's impossible for me to make a moral judgment about those actions.
Basically, Jack and Ennis wives got screwed, but I put most of the blame on an incredibly -- I mean, INCREDIBLY -- bigoted society. And I think that's the point of the movie: not that Jack and Ennis were bad, immoral people, but that bigotry screws up everyone's life
Posted by DaisyViolet (1058 points) (212 posts)on August 30, 2010 at 02:15pm
This is why I feel that Brokeback Mountain is important and also useful in the fight against bigotry. I had more than one person say 'What they did to their families was terrible!' which I agreed, but then went on to point out that they hurt their wives and kids not because they were gay, but because the bigots made the world such a place that they, or at least Ennis, felt they couldn't just be honest and be together. So basically you, homophobe, are the villain of this piece. This is what your hatred does. Destroys families and kills people. It was eye-opening, at least to the people I spoke with. It's like when one of the arguments about gay people having children is 'They'll be bullied and teased!" to which I have to say 'Then teach your kid not to be such a bully!" It's good for these people to see what their actions do (if they're willing to see, that is).
http://www.afterelton.com/askmonkey/08-30-2010?page=0,2 (http://www.afterelton.com/askmonkey/08-30-2010?page=0,2)
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**Well, I have just a couple of comments re the above three quotes, bcj.
In the three "quotes" section -- Brent's and Daisy's posts are very good.
But the first quote from "T" I angers me immensely. Isn't is so obvious when someone like this, who never saw BBM, actually "judges" the characters? "THE HORRIBLE THINGS THEY DID TO THEIR WIVES" he shouts in such anti-BBM rhetoric.
Well, whoever you are, "T", you know absolutely nothing of this great film, the sad story of Ennis & Jack, the fact Ennis eventually divorced, the unhappiness of their being apart - you know nothing .
p.s. Why don't you just keep your anti-BBM homophobic comments to yourself? They don't have to be posted. Don't use the wives or a very high moral tone (so evident here) as an excuse for your views; they come through loud and clear. Whew, I pity anyone judged by you - or is this reserved just for strident BBM dislike?**
kathy >:(
-
Kathy:
I do not know "T" and I am probably not missing much. However, there is no evidence in the quoted response that "T" has not seen BBM.
Furthermore, it is true that both Jack and Ennis "cheat" on their wives. There may be extenuating circumstances which contribute to that "cheating" but it is "cheating" none the less.
The tragedy of the story, in my opinion, touches not just Jack and Ennis but also their wives and children.
BBM is an excellent piece of writing and a very fine film and it is also much more than just a "sad" story about two guys who are unable to construct a life with one another.
Neither Jack nor Ennis are saints and free of sin. They are simply two human beings caught in a situation they are not equipped to either understand or control. This, however, does not abate their responsibility to refuse to live a lie. What would the world be like if we all acquiesced to that which we felt could not be changed?
-
I don't think it's homophobic to recognise that the wives were badly done to. I think it's part of the story.
In Ennis's case, I think he was genuinely unaware that he was cheating - partly because he avoided thinking too much about what exactly his relationship with Jack was. Surprisingly, when Alma divorces him, he feels "short-changed", as if she didn't give him enough, rather than the other way around. We know that's not the case, but Ennis seems to think of himself as the wronged party. He doesn't have a clue. From Alma's point of view though, she must have felt cheated on. Ennis also refused to get a better job (he needed jobs he could drop to be with Jack), refused to go on family vacations, etc. I do think she got a raw deal.
For Lureen, it must have been worse.
I don't think they should be judged harshly, because we're given the reasons why they cheated in the story. They didn't really have a lot of choices open to them.
-
Box Office History for Distributor - Focus Features
| Rank | Movie | Release Date | Total Gross | Inflation-Adjusted Gross |
| 1 | Brokeback Mountain (http://www.the-numbers.com/movies/2005/BRKMT.php) | 12/9/2005 | $83,043,761 | $95,445,465 |
| 2 | Coraline (http://www.the-numbers.com/movies/2009/CORLN.php) | 2/6/2009 | $75,286,229 | $75,286,230 |
| 3 | Burn After Reading (http://www.the-numbers.com/movies/2008/BAFRD.php) | 9/12/2008 | $60,355,347 | $63,045,278 |
| 4 | Lost in Translation (http://www.the-numbers.com/movies/2003/LSTNT.php) | 9/12/2003 | $44,585,453 | $54,962,423 |
| 5 | The Strangers (http://www.the-numbers.com/movies/2008/STRNG.php) | 5/30/2008 | $52,597,610 | $54,941,790 |
| 6 | Atonement (http://www.the-numbers.com/movies/2007/ATONE.php) | 12/7/2007 | $50,980,159 | $53,844,428 |
| 7 | Pride and Prejudice (http://www.the-numbers.com/movies/2005/PRDPJ.php) | 11/11/2005 | $38,372,662 | $44,791,410 |
| 8 | Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind (http://www.the-numbers.com/movies/2004/ETSUN.php) | 3/19/2004 | $34,366,518 | $41,505,458 |
| 9 | The Pianist (http://www.the-numbers.com/movies/2002/PIANI.php) | 12/27/2002 | $32,519,322 | $40,453,665 |
| 10 | The Constant Gardener (http://www.the-numbers.com/movies/2005/GRDNR.php) | 8/31/2005 | $33,579,798 | $39,273,060 |
| 11 | Balls of Fury (http://www.the-numbers.com/movies/2007/BFURY.php) | 8/29/2007 | $32,886,940 | $35,850,585 |
| 12 | Milk (http://www.the-numbers.com/movies/2008/HMILK.php) | 11/26/2008 | $31,841,299 | $32,606,003 |
| 13 | 9 (http://www.the-numbers.com/movies/2009/9NINE.php) | 9/9/2009 | $31,749,894 | $31,749,893 |
| 14 | Billy Elliot (http://www.the-numbers.com/movies/2000/BILLE.php) | 10/13/2000 | $21,995,263 | $30,279,548 |
| 15 | Hot Fuzz (http://www.the-numbers.com/movies/2007/HTFUZ.php) | 4/20/2007 | $23,618,786 | $25,747,223 |
| 16 | Deliver Us From Eva (http://www.the-numbers.com/movies/2003/DLVUS.php) | 2/7/2003 | $17,573,594 | $21,857,708 |
| 17 | Far From Heaven (http://www.the-numbers.com/movies/2002/FARFH.php) | 11/8/2002 | $15,901,849 | $20,251,665 |
| 18 | The Motorcycle Diaries (http://www.the-numbers.com/movies/2004/MCDIA.php) | 9/24/2004 | $16,756,372 | $20,198,295 |
| 19 | 21 Grams (http://www.the-numbers.com/movies/2003/21GMS.php) | 11/21/2003 | $16,248,701 | $19,886,213 |
| 20 | Vanity Fair (http://www.the-numbers.com/movies/2004/VFAIR.php) | 9/1/2004 | $16,123,851 | $19,473,248 |
| 21 | The Kids Are All Right (http://www.the-numbers.com/movies/2010/TKAAR.php) | 7/9/2010 | $19,891,258 | $18,884,108 |
| 22 | The American (http://www.the-numbers.com/movies/2010/AVPGM.php) | 9/1/2010 | $19,806,118 | $18,803,280 |
| 23 | Eastern Promises (http://www.the-numbers.com/movies/2007/EASTP.php) | 9/14/2007 | $17,144,882 | $18,729,578 |
| 24 | The Hitcher (http://www.the-numbers.com/movies/2007/HTCHR.php) | 1/19/2007 | $16,379,582 | $17,855,648 |
| 25 | Hollywoodland (http://www.the-numbers.com/movies/2006/HWLND.php) | 9/8/2006 | $14,426,251 | $16,518,608 |
http://www.the-numbers.com/market/Distributors/FocusFeatures.php (http://www.the-numbers.com/market/Distributors/FocusFeatures.php)
-
Thx, bcj.
I always knew Brokeback Mountain was their #1 of all time. It just had to be.
kathy :)
p.s. Look at the difference in millions between BBM and the others - wow!
-
**I'm sitting here thinking how way beyond great Heath & Jake are in BBM. Definitely would not be the same w/o them. The chemistry between them is electric. We see/feel it. No matter how many times I watch and weep, I am amazed at the great performances AL brought out of them and amazed at the beauty of this extraordinary film. Everything came together to make it perfect.
Thinking how much I'd love to see them together again.**
kathy
feeling a bit sad today...
-
Got save you lordilingis!
Which that now here be;
But as for the, brokeback shereve,
Evil mote thou the!
...Geoffrey Chaucer, The Coke's Tale of Gamelyn, 1810
--------------------------------------------------------------
"and almost destroyed; his polished forehead shone as though a purple light gleamed under the skin; his sickle-curved posture made him look as though his back were broken: a sad little brokeback dwarf crippled with age."
Other Voices, Other Rooms - Truman Capote, 1949
--------------------------------------------------------------
Bentback: "How did your Victory Garden turn out?"
Brokeback: "In Defeat for me and complete victory for the weeds and insects!"
The Progressive Grocer, Volume 22 - 1943
--------------------------------------------------------------
Brokeback - Seng. 16956. fruits poison violent.
Ressources Vegetales des Colonies Françaises
Gustavo Neiderlein, France, 1902
------------------------------------------------------------------
"What you doing here brokeback? What's that stinking brokeback doing here , Rena?" p. 23
"Well, if it ain't the little brokeback stinking up the park." p. 35
"Damn it, you stinking brokeback. Eat dirt." p. 37
...
Hart, Lee Veillon, 1974
--------------------------------------------------------------
"Some are brokeback fables and some are bastard reportage and some are pretexts for the pleasure of cutting up..."
Donald Barthelme's Fiction: The Ironist Saved From Drowning
University of Missouri Press, 1982
--------------------------------------------------------------
"Brokeback Cave"
10 SW Gatesville
Texas Journal of Science, Vol 20, 1967
--------------------------------------------------------------
"The Palace" and "The Dragon" are "brokeback fables," the first on the haves and the have-nots and the second on the conservation of endangered species, including men.
Masterplots Annual, 1975
--------------------------------------------------------------
Hart, the "brokeback," is one of the pale, ageless, back-alley inhabitants of New Orleans. What Hart likes best are balloons, bright helium-filled rounds of color he buys from the proceeds of his "antique business,"
New Times Communications Corp., 1974
--------------------------------------------------------------
... through the double rope of the wind's eye where you let me fly you: bound lame in a forest of lost keys I'll travel, paper baby and a brokeback flier, taped out on the doorstep and fixed for certain...
Under 30: fiction, poetry and criticism of the new American writers
Indiana University Press, 1970
--------------------------------------------------------------
"The plant causes a paralytic condition in man called "Brokeback"
Handbook of Experimental Pharmacology, 1966
--------------------------------------------------------------
Popham is, on the whole, as much a southern institution as Old Granddad or Turner Catledge. Virginia-born and yard-raised in a career-Marine family, he speaks that bent Tidewater accent with the brokeback "about."
New South, Volume 22 1967
--------------------------------------------------------------
These substances are present in certain South African plants, are poisonous to cattle that graze upon these plants, and produce a paralytic state in man known as "brokeback."
Comparative Biochemistry: Cells and organisms - 1964
--------------------------------------------------------------
They also isolated in small amounts, a long chain fluoro- fatty acid with 16 to 18 carbon atoms, one fluorine and one double bond. Fluoroacetate was present only in traces. The plant causes a paralytic condition in man called "brokeback"
Pharmacology of fluorides: Volume 20, Part 1 1970
--------------------------------------------------------------
Brokeback hills hug within themselves, scrunched in from that softer line coating the strands of a cloud's shelving. The whole forms on the sun, scratches of orange stain the sky— an invalid eye leaking the day.
Chapman Magazine, 1983
-
Box Office History for Distributor - Focus Features
| Rank | Movie | Release Date | Total Gross | Inflation-Adjusted Gross |
| 1 | Brokeback Mountain (http://www.the-numbers.com/movies/2005/BRKMT.php) | 12/9/2005 | $83,043,761 | $95,445,465 |
Very cool!!! Thanks John!
-
Guess this is as close as we come to a Shameless Self-promoting thread. I've been busy polishing up some ragged videos, and I now have them on my YouTube channel. For a change, they're all in one place. Of course there are only three, but that just shows how disorganized I was. Oh well...
I made BBM Symbols and Interpretations several years ago, but it was too long to fit on YouTube. In the past I offered it on YouSendIt, but they would only deliver it for one week, then delete it. I never thought many people saw it, which was the main reason I wanted to put it on YouTube. I hated the idea of cutting it in two, but time has weakened me, and at long last I did it.
So here's a link to my YT Channel, from which you may watch
BBM S&I Part 1
BBM S&I Part 2
Brokeback Dream
http://www.youtube.com/user/foreverinawe1 (http://www.youtube.com/user/foreverinawe1)
Shameless, I know. Slow weekend.
~~~fia
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Very nice videos FIA!
I never saw S&I before. Well done.
However, I strongly disagree about the metaphor of the closet. The closet is used an element in the film too often to be coincidental.
I wish I had a nice voice like you. Nobody ever listens to me for more than a few seconds.
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Very nice videos FIA!
Thanks, John
However, I strongly disagree about the metaphor of the closet. The closet is used an element in the film too often to be coincidental.
It disappoints me. Remember the recent TOTW (I think) discussion about Ang Lee scrapping the Mechanics scene? He thought it was overkill (poor choice of words), thought it was hitting the audience over the head with the obvious. I don't need to be told the boys were closeted. *klunk* On the other hand, there really wasn't a more logical place for the shirts.
I wish I had a nice voice like you.
Thanks again. Tol'ya I was shameless. ;D
~~~fia
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On the other hand, there really wasn't a more logical place for the shirts.
I don't know about that. I'm thinking of getting a shadowbox frame for mine ;D
(https://ultimatebrokebackforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbaycityforums.com%2Fimages%2Flastscan.jpg&hash=f907dbcd3ad74083a74fc9ea22a338486171b2f2)
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To fia --
As usual, your videos are so touching and beautiful.
Your very insightful posts, which I love to read, (and these videos) bring on the tears.
kathy
-
Watching them now, fia. Magnificent. Thank you.
-
Thanks Kathy
Thanks Fritz
~~~fia
-
You are more than welcome, fia.
kathy
-
Guess this is as close as we come to a Shameless Self-promoting thread. I've been busy polishing up some ragged videos, and I now have them on my YouTube channel. For a change, they're all in one place. Of course there are only three, but that just shows how disorganized I was. Oh well...
I made BBM Symbols and Interpretations several years ago, but it was too long to fit on YouTube. In the past I offered it on YouSendIt, but they would only deliver it for one week, then delete it. I never thought many people saw it, which was the main reason I wanted to put it on YouTube. I hated the idea of cutting it in two, but time has weakened me, and at long last I did it.
So here's a link to my YT Channel, from which you may watch
BBM S&I Part 1
BBM S&I Part 2
Brokeback Dream
http://www.youtube.com/user/foreverinawe1 (http://www.youtube.com/user/foreverinawe1)
Shameless, I know. Slow weekend.
~~~fia
Thanks fia!
That video of yours - Brokeback Dream - is one of my all time favourite BBM videos!
-
I wish I had a nice voice like you. Nobody ever listens to me for more than a few seconds.
Um.... maybe you should try actually saying something that lasts more than a few seconds.... ::)
:-*
-
Um.... maybe you should try actually saying something that lasts more than a few seconds.... ::)
I used to do that but nobody listened so I don't even bother any more.
-
I used to do that but nobody listened so I don't even bother any more.
Their loss.
-
Barstow library observes banned books week
BARSTOW • What do books like “Huckleberry Finn,” “Daddy’s Roommate,” and Webster’s Ninth Collegiate Dictionary have in common?
They were all banned from schools or libraries based on their content. The Barstow branch library will be joining libraries around the world this week in celebrating individuals’ freedom to read what they want during Banned Books Week.
Books in the Barstow library’s collection that have been challenged or banned for their content elsewhere have been placed on prominent display in a case in the library with red X’s fashioned from tape on their spines. The front of the books carry “warning” labels informing readers of their banned content.
When library employee Steve Smith went to gather religious texts — which often face challenges — for the display, he noticed that someone at the library may have taken the banning into their own hands and stolen the Barstow branch’s copy of the Quran.
“I can’t say 100 percent that it was stolen, but the computer says it should be in the stacks and it’s not there,” said Smith.
Smith said the only challenge to materials at the Barstow branch that he can recall came when two Barstow residents asked that the video copy of “Brokeback Mountain” be taken off the shelves. The library did not comply, but someone did check the video out some time ago and has yet to return it.
http://www.desertdispatch.com/news/barstow-9334-books-library.html (http://www.desertdispatch.com/news/barstow-9334-books-library.html)
-
"... for the display, he noticed that someone at the library may have taken the banning into their own hands and stolen the Barstow branch’s copy of the Quran.
“I can’t say 100 percent that it was stolen, but the computer says it should be in the stacks and it’s not there,” said Smith.
Smith said the only challenge to materials at the Barstow branch that he can recall came when two Barstow residents asked that the video copy of “Brokeback Mountain” be taken off the shelves. The library did not comply, but someone did check the video out some time ago and has yet to return it."
(http://www.desertdispatch.com/news/barstow-9334-books-library.html)
**This is totally disgusting. How ignorant can these nuts be? These "people" who stole the items are nothing but thieves and idiots, preventing patrons of a library from reading, learning, and seeing.**
kathy >:(
p.s. Can't they go after the idiots who "checked out" the video & never returned it? Better still - why doesn't the library replace both items that were stolen??
-
At least one of our members was involved in an effort to make copies of BBM available in libraries. Perhaps she can see to it that this library gets a copy back in circulation. :)
-
"... for the display, he noticed that someone at the library may have taken the banning into their own hands and stolen the Barstow branch’s copy of the Quran.
“I can’t say 100 percent that it was stolen, but the computer says it should be in the stacks and it’s not there,” said Smith.
Smith said the only challenge to materials at the Barstow branch that he can recall came when two Barstow residents asked that the video copy of “Brokeback Mountain” be taken off the shelves. The library did not comply, but someone did check the video out some time ago and has yet to return it."
(http://www.desertdispatch.com/news/barstow-9334-books-library.html)
**This is totally disgusting. How ignorant can these nuts be? These "people" who stole the items are nothing but thieves and idiots, preventing patrons of a library from reading, learning, and seeing.**
kathy >:(
p.s. Can't they go after the idiots who "checked out" the video & never returned it? Better still - why doesn't the library replace both items that were stolen??
Oh ! p-lease !! If some people got any narrower....they'd fit down the neck of a bottle !
-
At least one of our members was involved in an effort to make copies of BBM available in libraries. Perhaps she can see to it that this library gets a copy back in circulation. :)
Donating DVDs to libraries was one of the original campaigns of the forum, following the ad in Variety. We donated a lot of DVDs. I can't look back at the info right now, but I will when I come back.
If people are going to engage in this vandalism, I don't know the answer. :p
-
:) Hi from kathy --
Maybe someone can help me - I don't know exactly where to post this question.
My e-mail address has changed and I have no idea how to let the DC forums know; and I don't know how to change it. Of course I'm having trouble with getting e-mails already. I did go to my "profile" to try to change it but couldn't. ???
Can anyone tell me how to inform the forums it has changed? Thank you much.
kathy
-
I want to report a horrible computer malfunction.
And how to fix it.
Three days ago, apropos of absolutely nothing I was aware of, my fine 6-month-old HP Pavilion with Win7 mysteriously displayed six separate Word documents, each running in its own separate window. I did not recognize any of the six documents, and Word displayed them as part normal English characters and part gibberish, about 50-50. Each also carried an error message saying that Word could not understand or manipulate them, and it turned out that that included Closing -- it could not close them!
But that was only the start.
On my Desktop, I have 25 icons for my various programs. As is normal, each icon was unique, and vaguely served to reflect the purpose of its program. Of course, below each icon was the proper name of the program.
Twenty of the 25 had turned to Word icons, although the proper name remained underneath. But the proper name now was four characters longer: ".lnk" was added to it. If I clicked the icon, it opened another Word document, filled with gibberish. But at least it would close if the clicked the big red X.
Every program has its own .exe file, and by trial and error I discovered that I could use the Start menu's Search Programs and Files (the entry box at the bottom) to enter the .exe filename of any program, and it would find it. Then I could click the name of the file, and it would run normally!
By entering the filename, I was bypassing its icon, so I began to suspect that it was the icons that were the problem. But what to do about it?
I Googled it.
That's right, in Google I entered "All my icons have turned into Word icons". Unbelievably, I got pages of hits. Most were from victims like myself, asking for help, but help there was. In a lot of cases, "Word" was not the intruder, but some different program on the user's computer. From reading the posts, it seemed to me that the problem involved the Registry, a place of horrors.
One response linked me to The WinHelpOnLineBlog, which I had never heard of.
http://www.winhelponline.com/blog/file-asso-fixes-for-windows-7/ (http://www.winhelponline.com/blog/file-asso-fixes-for-windows-7/)
After reading a bit from the blog, I realized that this was a far more common problem, and had even existed in XP. It really involves file associations in the registry, and somehow all (or almost all) of them had become infected. The blog offered a simple fix: download the automatic registry file association fixer, unzip it and run it. The "run" only took about one second, in my case. (Plus it was free.)
But it worked. I rebooted, and my computer was back to normal.
Was the original malfunction some sort of internal glitch inside my computer? Was it caused by a virus, or something that arrived on line (I have latest Norton)? I just don't know, But when the crises ended, I didn't investigate any more, and just tried to pick my life back up where it had stopped.
Hope it never happens to you, but if it does, this is a life saver.
~~~fia
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A 2-Poisson Model for Probabilistic Coreference of
Named Entities for Improved Text Retrieval
Named entities referring to entities in the real world are
important queries in text retrieval. Examples of named entities
...include person names (such as Bill Clinton), company
names (such as Qualcomm), movie names (such as Brokeback
Mountain), etc.
(https://ultimatebrokebackforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi275.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fjj282%2FSanFranciscoJohn%2FBBMTbl1.jpg&hash=5b6b83f90b5add6c2e7c0b001c4ba52ca9d1677a)
http://www.comp.nus.edu/~nght/pubs/sigir09.pdf (http://www.comp.nus.edu/~nght/pubs/sigir09.pdf)
-
Huh ??? ???
-
Huh ??? ???
Does this help? :
En 2-Poisson modell för probabilistisk Coreference av
Namngivna Enheter för bättre text Retrieval
Uppkallad enheter hänvisar till enheter i den verkliga världen är
viktiga frågor i texten hämtning. Exempel på namngivna enheter
... Omfattar person namn (som Bill Clinton), företag
namn (t.ex. Qualcomm), namn film (t.ex. Brokeback
Mountain)
;D
-
Huh? ??? ???
kathy
-
Does this help? :
En 2-Poisson modell för probabilistisk Coreference av
Namngivna Enheter för bättre text Retrieval
Uppkallad enheter hänvisar till enheter i den verkliga världen är
viktiga frågor i texten hämtning. Exempel på namngivna enheter
... Omfattar person namn (som Bill Clinton), företag
namn (t.ex. Qualcomm), namn film (t.ex. Brokeback
Mountain)
;D
Oh, so THAT'S what it means!!!
Thank you John, I totally understand it all now!!! not
;D :-*
-
Patrick Wilson talks to The Advocate about his gay roles, his gay fan base and his bare ass
You haven’t played gay since Angels. Why not?
There’s no rhyme and reason, but that is kind of funny, right? I really haven’t been offered a lot of gay characters. It didn’t get to the point where I auditioned, but I remember when Brokeback Mountain was happening early on—before they knew if it was going to work with Heath and Jake. But when I was sent the Brokeback Mountain script, I didn’t bat an eye. That was pretty soon after Angels came out, but I couldn’t have cared less if I only did two roles on screen and one was Joe Pitt and the other was in Brokeback. I don’t care whether a role’s gay or straight; if it’s good, it’s good.
http://greginhollywood.com/patrick-wilson-talks-to-the-advocate-about-his-gay-roles-his-gay-fan-base-and-his-bare-ass-39013 (http://greginhollywood.com/patrick-wilson-talks-to-the-advocate-about-his-gay-roles-his-gay-fan-base-and-his-bare-ass-39013)
-
Gay and gay-friendly students speak out about climate at Montclair’s high schools
During the annual Montclair Cup, when the
hockey teams for Montclair High School and
The Montclair Kimberley Academy battle for
supremacy, both sides’ fans employ
decidedly anti-gay chants.
"MKGay, MKGay," MHS’s students yell, while
their opponents respond with, "Brokeback
Mounties, Brokeback Mounties," a reference
to the 2005 gay-cowboy romance,
"Brokeback Mountain."
Anti-gay chants at school sporting events are
nothing new. Just last week in Ohio, dozens
of high-school students were recorded
chanting a gay slur at the opposing team. But
the Montclair Cup chants illustrate how anti-
gay sentiment can pervade schools even in
liberal enclaves like Montclair.
http://www.northjersey.com/news/105410078__Sometimes_people_are_really_scary_.html (http://www.northjersey.com/news/105410078__Sometimes_people_are_really_scary_.html)
-
Against Friendship
By Gregory Jusdanis 10.21.2010
The glaze in their eyes gives it away, the slight tightening of their lips, and the nervous breath. When colleagues learn about my new project, they begin to feel sorry for me. “Why friendship of all subjects?” It’s seems quaint to them or just light; in any case, not a legitimate object of inquiry.
And when hosts ask me about potential lecture topics and I mention friendship, they ask: “How about something on nationalism or what about aesthetics? The politics of criticism, maybe?” And when I insist on friendship, I pick up the edginess of their fingers on the keyboard.
So what’s wrong with friendship and why are people so indifferent to it? How can an important relationship be so lost in the academic radar screen? Of course, there has been in the last twenty years some work on friendship in many fields, such as literary criticism, sociology, psychology, and philosophy. Interestingly, many of these studies begin with the standard complaint about the little interest expressed by the academy in the topic.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In Epistemology of the Closet Eve Kosovsky Sedgwick lists many ideological tensions in her examination of the crisis in representation: the heterosexual/homosexual, secrecy/disclosure, in/out, natural/ artificial, masculine/feminine, canonic/noncanonic, discipline/terrorism, majority/minority amongst others. Friendship gets not even a mention because it does not fit into the definitions she examines. It does not manifest the oppositions she believes come to express the modern age.
Sedgwick makes a point by her very silence. We’re not really interested in the friend as a simultaneous exchange of the same and the different; but only if this ambivalence can be reduced to an identity. This is why the two men, Jack and Ennis in E. Annie Proulx’s short story, “Brokeback Mountain” (later made into a film by Ang Lee), can’t be friends. Unlike Gilgamesh and Enkidu, Achilles and Patroclus, David and Jonathan, they can’t fall in love with each other without their love being turned into a binary opposition.
http://arcade.stanford.edu/against-friendship (http://arcade.stanford.edu/against-friendship)
-
CMLT-C 301(18583):
Special Topics in Comparative Literature:
Classic Gay Literature
Department of Comparative Literature – Spring 2011
Professor J. Johnson | MW 4:00-5:15 pm | fulfills A&H and CS requirements*
The Department of Comparative Literature is pleased to offer its first course devoted to the study of gay literature from around the world. We will be reading Thomas Mann’s Death in Venice, Yukio Mishima’s Confessions of a Mask, Tennessee Williams’ Suddenly Last Summer, Virginia Woolf’s Orlando, Annie Proulx’ “Brokeback Mountain,” Plato’s Symposium, and the lyric poetry of C. P. Cavafy.
http://www.indiana.edu/~glbt/cmlt-c-301-18583-classic-gay-literature/ (http://www.indiana.edu/~glbt/cmlt-c-301-18583-classic-gay-literature/)
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Randy Quaid and wife arrested in Vancouver
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/british-columbia/randy-quaid-and-wife-arrested-in-vancouver-reports/article1769358/?cmpid=rss1
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**This seems to be getting more and more stupid. What is up with those Quaids' anyway? Now he seeks refugee status in Canada after breaking laws in the the U.S. and evading court twice. What a deadbeat!
Well, if they want to stay in and love Canada so much, go ahead. But the Canadian authorities surely can't count on them showing up for anything.**
kathy
p.s. I can't help feeling this way about Quaid. Since the day he filed suit against Focus Features for more $$$$$ from BBM, and the case finally being quietly "settled", I have no thought for him at all. Deadbeat.
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The Quaids definitely seem to be going through a bizarre time of life, don't they?
:o
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This is for Joseph
By Doug Spearman
There’s a scene in Brokeback Mountain that is almost too personal for me to watch. Heath Ledger is standing in Jake Gyllenhaal’s childhood bedroom. There is only one window, open half-way, looking out over a barren and seemingly endless landscape. A plastic pony sits on the window ledge, the only toy in the room. Under the window there’s a small, four-legged stool. It’s easy for me to imagine a little boy sitting at the one window that belongs to him, pretending to ride his horse over the horizon to something new, something different, something better. It’s easy for me, because I was that kind of little boy.
I just read portions of a suicide note. It was written by a 26 year old black man named Joseph Jefferson. He lived in New York. His windows looked out on the busiest most important city in the world, millions of people and the wealth of an empire all spread out before him, and he saw no hope. He hung himself because he couldn’t take not belonging. He couldn’t continue the fight for not just equality, but a place where he, as a black gay man fit in. I bet Joseph was that kind of boy, too.
Except my room was much nicer than the one in the movie and filled with toys. And instead of a depression-era landscape, I looked over a forest of maple and oak trees in Maryland. The feelings, however, were the same. How would I make it out of here? Who was going to love me?
more...
http://dot429.com/articles/2010/10/25/joseph (http://dot429.com/articles/2010/10/25/joseph)
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The Mark of Death: Awareness in Brokeback Mountain
" As far as the narrative goes, Ennis is set-up as the central figure,
partnered by Jack Twist, who we quickly learn lived both a twin and a
separate life from Ennis’s. Their origins begin in “small, poor
ranches.” Ennis, though, has one distinguishing feature, that is
both his defining characteristic, and also a broader point being made in
Brokeback Mountain. He bears the curse of life, which is death.
Ennis has lost both his parents, but Jack’s outlive their son. Ennis has
experienced his lover’s death, and also witnessed the grisly aftermath
of another gay cowboy’s lynching."
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Only once is sex poetic, when Ennis’s actions are described: “[he] laid the ministering angel out in the wild columbine, wings folded.” (p. 51)
??? ??? ???
http://ronaldmetellus.blogspot.com/2010/10/mark-of-death-awareness-in-brokeback.html (http://ronaldmetellus.blogspot.com/2010/10/mark-of-death-awareness-in-brokeback.html)
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**Who in the world is this "ronald" who wrote such lies? Another so-called blogger who writes trash on a blog about AP's ss, obviously never saw the beautiful film, and has such a know-it-all attitude.**
kathy >:(
p.s. bcj: Is this for real?
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It looks real to me.
He's reviewing the short story, not the movie.
I thought some of it was interesting, and I don't see anything homophobic about it.
He obviously misread the part about the ministering angel. I've never heard anyone confuse it with sex before.
I don't get the feeling that he's 'degrading' or 'belittling' the story at all.
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**Really?? I thought he was downright degrading. But I did realize it was about the ss, not the film.
Well, maybe I'm being too protective of our boys, and let my love for the film take over. I do that sometimes.**
kathy :-\
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There’s a scene in Brokeback Mountain that is almost too personal for me to watch. Heath Ledger is standing in Jake Gyllenhaal’s childhood bedroom. There is only one window, open half-way, looking out over a barren and seemingly endless landscape. A plastic pony sits on the window ledge, the only toy in the room. Under the window there’s a small, four-legged stool. It’s easy for me to imagine a little boy sitting at the one window that belongs to him, pretending to ride his horse over the horizon to something new, something different, something better. It’s easy for me, because I was that kind of little boy.
Odd the way people confuse actors with the characters they portray and have a dreamy-eyed, romantically distorted recollection of scenes from the film.
It was Ennis (played by Heath Ledger) standing in Jack Twist's childhood bedroom, not in Jake Gyllenhaals's childhood bedroom.
The window did not look out over a romantic "seemingly endless landscape." According to the script, the window looked down "on the dirt road stretching south...the only road out of this godforsaken place." In the original story "the window looked down on the gravel road stretching south and it occurred to him that for his growing-up years that was the only road Jack knew. "
The "toy" was a small wooden horse and rider, not a romantic pony. And it was not the only "toy" in the room.
The stool had two legs, not four.
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Welcome to the Forum, Jay Preis!
You might have missed all the talk back in them earlier days, but the good news is we saved it for you.
This is a good topic to read. The original "How Brokeback Affected Me" topic from 2005:
http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=101.0 (http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=101.0)
If new members have questions, try "New Members Ask - Experienced Members Respond "
http://davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=4687.0 (http://davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=4687.0)
We also have a site map here:
http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=8878.0 (http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=8878.0)
You might also be interested in our book:
Selected from among the most compelling writing on The Ultimate Brokeback Forum, the stories in Beyond Brokeback: The Impact of a Film convey the remarkable power of the film Brokeback Mountain to affect the lives of all sorts of people—straight and gay, old and young, male and female—on six continents. Ranging from the amusing to the emotionally devastating, the pieces collected in Beyond Brokeback crystallize the deep, frequently life-changing reactions of its often-unsuspecting viewers.
http://www.davecullen.com/brokeback/book/ (http://www.davecullen.com/brokeback/book/)
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Odd the way people confuse actors with the characters they portray and have a dreamy-eyed, romantically distorted recollection of scenes from the film.
It was Ennis (played by Heath Ledger) standing in Jack Twist's childhood bedroom, not in Jake Gyllenhaals's childhood bedroom.
The window did not look out over a romantic "seemingly endless landscape." According to the script, the window looked down "on the dirt road stretching south...the only road out of this godforsaken place." In the original story "the window looked down on the gravel road stretching south and it occurred to him that for his growing-up years that was the only road Jack knew. "
The "toy" was a small wooden horse and rider, not a romantic pony. And it was not the only "toy" in the room.
The stool had two legs, not four.
Exactly There was a large toy truck underneath the desk. And the teddy bear is a toy as well.
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Odd the way people confuse actors with the characters they portray and have a dreamy-eyed, romantically distorted recollection of scenes from the film.
Welcome to the forum, Jay!
That was an informative first post, but I don't, myself, find it odd that people confuse actors with the characters they portray. Often, some part of the actor merges with the character, and some kind of hybrid emerges. One of the criticisms of Jake Gyllenhaal (very much unfair, I think) is that he plays....Jake Gyllenhaal, in whatever movie he is in. But that is certainly a credible view of some others in the industry. And then we have those who lose their identity and become their character. Clint Eastwood comes to mind as someone who is a Clint Eastwood wannabe.
As far as romantically distorted recollections, well, BbM was, for many of us, so powerful and haunting that it would not, IMO, be odd, but somewhat natural, that some scenes trigger a blending with our own past, or even what we want to see. There's unusual chemistry in this film between what's on the screen, and the viewer.
That chemistry has fueled 5 years of these discussion threads, and, of course, the welcome and warranted references (like yours) to what actually is in the SS or the film is part of that flow.
Thanks for joining in, and please keep making very good posts!
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The Buzz Image site has been reorganized and I can't find the Brokeback post-production clip. Which is a pity, because I used to watch it everyday as I started at work. The music, by Thomas Newman's Shawshank Redemption, is wonderful.
I just sent Buzz Image an e-mail asking about this, but I don't expect them to reply.
If anyone knows if that clip is still accessible somewhere, please reply or PM me.
Thanks.
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Welcome to the forum, Jay!
That was an informative first post, but I don't, myself, find it odd that people confuse actors with the characters they portray. Often, some part of the actor merges with the character, and some kind of hybrid emerges. One of the criticisms of Jake Gyllenhaal (very much unfair, I think) is that he plays....Jake Gyllenhaal, in whatever movie he is in. But that is certainly a credible view of some others in the industry. And then we have those who lose their identity and become their character. Clint Eastwood comes to mind as someone who is a Clint Eastwood wannabe.
As far as romantically distorted recollections, well, BbM was, for many of us, so powerful and haunting that it would not, IMO, be odd, but somewhat natural, that some scenes trigger a blending with our own past, or even what we want to see. There's unusual chemistry in this film between what's on the screen, and the viewer.
That chemistry has fueled 5 years of these discussion threads, and, of course, the welcome and warranted references (like yours) to what actually is in the SS or the film is part of that flow.
Thanks for joining in, and please keep making very good posts!
I understand, Tony, but it's a bit over the top when a viewer writes: "There’s a scene in Brokeback Mountain that is almost too personal for me to watch. Heath Ledger is standing in Jake Gyllenhaal’s childhood bedroom.", as though the film was about Heath Ledger and Jack Gyllenhaal instead of Ennis Del Mar and Jack Twist, and Ledger was actually standing in Gyllenhaal's bedroom.
An innocent slip of the pen? Perhaps. But the viewer could just as easily, and more accurately, have written: "There's a scene in Brokeback Mountain that is almost too personal for me to watch: Ennis standing in Jack’s childhood bedroom..." Why did the viewer feel the need to refer to the characters by the actors' names? Did he forget the names of the characters? If the performances were really so compelling that they made the characters seem real, then why refer to the characters by the actors' names? It's as though the viewer subconsciously believes, or wants to believe, the film is really about Ledger and Gyllenhaal.
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The Buzz Image site has been reorganized and I can't find the Brokeback post-production clip. Which is a pity, because I used to watch it everyday as I started at work. The music, by Thomas Newman's Shawshank Redemption, is wonderful.
I just sent Buzz Image an e-mail asking about this, but I don't expect them to reply.
If anyone knows if that clip is still accessible somewhere, please reply or PM me.
Thanks.
You can find it here, Marc. I downloaded the clip a while ago because you never know when it might disappear. I love watching it over and over again too, and really appreciate the music.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPw5plmkd6Q
And welcome to the Forum, Jay!
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Wow! Thanks so much guys! I've never seen that before!
What a treat!
:-*
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Isn't that good,Donna? So much goes into the making of a scene, it's almost unbelievable!
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An innocent slip of the pen? Perhaps.
Hi, Jay - I understand what you are saying, above. I can't speak for the writer, but would only say, I knew what he meant. Also, he's someone, IMO, whose posts are never to be missed. Anyway, you do have a strong and well-written focus when you post. When you look around some more, I have no doubt you'll add a new viewpoint, and some new flavor to the general soup.
We also have a Topic of the Week, that kind of picks out one area from BbM general discussion, for one week, and also the other sections. I hope you like writing, and also find the particular subjects about the film or SS that interest you enough to weigh in. It's a motley crew, here, but I know, when I first showed up, it took me awhile to get used to the different regulars, and their approaches, which vary widely. It can be fun. It can also be...a zoo. I qualify for the zoo aspect, I guess. You seem to be gifted at clear expression of what you see. Am looking forward to your take on the various subjects. And hope you enjoy the company, here.
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Wow, the special effects clip was one heck of a discovery! Just imagine, with that technology, what they could have added to FNIT :D. Oh, never mind. The Slashers have already done that......
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You can find it here, Marc. I downloaded the clip a while ago because you never know when it might disappear. I love watching it over and over again too, and really appreciate the music.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPw5plmkd6Q
And welcome to the Forum, Jay!
This was brilliant fritz. Where and how on earth did you find it ?
I can understand the sheep having to be computer generated but I can't understand why valleys and mountains had to be added or taken away or even made bigger and wider. After going to Alberta this year and traveling around the Rockies....I would have thought there was enough fabulous scenery to have fitted any on the scenes they shot.
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Can't remember how I first came across it on the Buzz site, probably referred to it by another Brokie. It changed its address so many times on that website that I downloaded the video. Tonight, hearing that it was gone again, I googled "Brokeback Mountain special effects" on YouTube.
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Wow, the special effects clip was one heck of a discovery! Just imagine, with that technology, what they could have added to FNIT :D. Oh, never mind. The Slashers have already done that......
But "The Slashers" do it so well !!
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I understand, Tony, but it's a bit over the top when a viewer writes: "There’s a scene in Brokeback Mountain that is almost too personal for me to watch. Heath Ledger is standing in Jake Gyllenhaal’s childhood bedroom.", as though the film was about Heath Ledger and Jack Gyllenhaal instead of Ennis Del Mar and Jack Twist, and Ledger was actually standing in Gyllenhaal's bedroom.
An innocent slip of the pen? Perhaps. But the viewer could just as easily, and more accurately, have written: "There's a scene in Brokeback Mountain that is almost too personal for me to watch: Ennis standing in Jack’s childhood bedroom..." Why did the viewer feel the need to refer to the characters by the actors' names? Did he forget the names of the characters? If the performances were really so compelling that they made the characters seem real, then why refer to the characters by the actors' names? It's as though the viewer subconsciously believes, or wants to believe, the film is really about Ledger and Gyllenhaal.
Hi friend!
You are very much welcome here to discuss Brokeback Mountain and I hope you will stay and get to know us.
It's a good idea to read the rules of the forum.
This is a moderated board and one of our number one rules is respect for other participants, so usually we don't go so far as to edit somebody else's post. Your point about not confusing actors with their characters is certainly valid, and most of us are aware of it, especially of the fact that Annie Proulx's characters were not written as a couple of the best looking heart throbs in Hollywood.
Here, we have a long history of Heath and Jake respect for the excellent job they did in the movie, and I took the post to mean the viewer was aware of Heath acting the part of Ennis.
Take some time to get to know us a little bit. ;)
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I found this quote and didn't know where to put it...it was on a blog and the current topic of the day was Stetson vs Resistol...
Everything reminds me...
other than a real mangy old Resistol straw that only goes fishing, all my cowboy hats are Stetsons....
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hmmm I wonder why the Resistol goes fishing? Must be one of them "lucky" hats
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Hi friend!
You are very much welcome here to discuss Brokeback Mountain and I hope you will stay and get to know us.
It's a good idea to read the rules of the forum.
This is a moderated board and one of our number one rules is respect for other participants, so usually we don't go so far as to edit somebody else's post. Your point about not confusing actors with their characters is certainly valid, and most of us are aware of it, especially of the fact that Annie Proulx's characters were not written as a couple of the best looking heart throbs in Hollywood.
Here, we have a long history of Heath and Jake respect for the excellent job they did in the movie, and I took the post to mean the viewer was aware of Heath acting the part of Ennis.
Take some time to get to know us a little bit. ;)
The quote he was 're-quoting' was by "Doug Spearman". Is this person a Forum member or just someone commenting at another website?
After a history of more than four years, there are quite a few points that get repeated.
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Doug Spearman is not a forum member.
I posted quotes from the article along with the link only as a point of discussion.
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Doug Spearman is a Washington, D.C. native who's been acting since the age of seven when he discovered that the flying monkeys in the Wizard of Oz were actually people and not real monkeys. A no-brainer as to a career choice as far as he was concerned.
His career highlights have included work on such television shows as StarTrek Voyager, The Drew Carey Show, The Hughleys, Charmed, America's Most Wanted, Gideon's Crossing, MAD TV, Girlfriends, and the Profiler.
On stage Doug has starred in such productions as the American premiere of the AIDS drama, the Ice Pick at the Celebration Theater in Los Aneles, the Men's Room, Moscow, The Bullpen Boys, A Few Good Men, and the world premiere of the Tony Award winning South Coast Repertory's production of The Hollow Lands, by Howard Corder.
Doug co-starred in the motion picture Cradle 2 The Grave with Jet Li and DMX and had several small parts in big movies and large parts in small movies. Doug stars as Professor Chance Counter in the ground breaking television series Noah's Arc on LOGO and the feature film of the same name.
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0817335/bio
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Doug Spearman is a Washington, D.C. native who's been acting since the age of seven when he discovered that the flying monkeys in the Wizard of Oz were actually people and not real monkeys.
I am guilty of sometimes referring to the lead character in the Wizard of Oz as "Judy Garland" rather than "Dorothy Gale"
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The quote he was 're-quoting' was by "Doug Spearman". Is this person a Forum member or just someone commenting at another website?
After a history of more than four years, there are quite a few points that get repeated.
Good catch!
wow, we all do it so much here (say Heath when we mean Ennis) -- and probably I have done it too -- I thought Jay P was referring to one of our quotes.
Heck we can criticize other people and re-write their stuff if we want, that's not against forum rules! ;D
thanks for clearing that up
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Good catch!
wow, we all do it so much here (say Heath when we mean Ennis) -- and probably I have done it too -- I thought Jay P was referring to one of our quotes.
Heck we can criticize other people and re-write their stuff if we want, that's not against forum rules! ;D
thanks for clearing that up
It's not all so clear to me.
Yes, people often say that this or that actor did this or that in a scene.
But that is hardly the same as deliberately referring to a scene of Ennis standing in Jack's childhood bedroom as "Heath Ledger standing in Jake Gyllenhaal's childhood bedroom," as though Ledger was actually standing in a replica of Gyllenhaal's childhood bedroom which Gyllenhaal's mother had kept as it was when he was a boy living in Beverly Hills.
In any case, I was not criticizing, attacking or disrespecting anyone. I was making a critical observation about the PHENOMENON of CONFLATING an actor with the character he portrays. I merely quoted Spearman as an example of the phenomenon.
I neither edited nor rewrote anyone's stuff, nor could I have done so since I do not have the necessary user privileges.
Nor can quoting and commenting on a post be equated with editing or rewriting it.
The operative word in the title of this forum is "discussion". How can there be discussion if one cannot express an opinion about something in a post? What difference does it make whose quotes I refer to?
Are you saying that commenting on something posted by a member amounts to disrespecting the member unless I either agree with him, or else preface my remarks with apologies and IMHO?
Can you quote the specific Forum Rule(s) prohibiting quoting, commenting on, or disagreeing with something a member posts? I read the Rules and cannot find it.
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~it's a bit over the top when a viewer writes: "There’s a scene in Brokeback Mountain that is almost too personal for me to watch. Heath Ledger is standing in Jake Gyllenhaal’s childhood bedroom.", as though the film was about Heath Ledger and Jack Gyllenhaal instead of Ennis Del Mar and Jack Twist, and Ledger was actually standing in Gyllenhaal's bedroom...
Why did the viewer feel the need to refer to the characters by the actors' names? Did he forget the names of the characters? If the performances were really so compelling that they made the characters seem real, then why refer to the characters by the actors' names?~
Hi Jay,
I'm enjoying reading your posts.
Conflating an actor with a role seems to be quite common nowadays in cyberspace.
Even critics on IMBd (who should know better) do it.
Not to mention the drivel that appears on its predominately moronic Message Boards. ::)
But at least Doug Spearman used the actors' proper names.
Calling them "Heath" and "Jake" could suggest that they were his close personal acquaintances... ;)
~ The window did not look out over a romantic "seemingly endless landscape." According to the script, the window looked down "on the dirt road stretching south...the only road out of this godforsaken place." In the original story "the window looked down on the gravel road stretching south and it occurred to him that for his growing-up years that was the only road Jack knew. "
The "toy" was a small wooden horse and rider, not a romantic pony. And it was not the only "toy" in the room.
The stool had two legs, not four.
Even "professional" film reviewers on IMDb and elsewhere get things wrong at times.
I sometimes sadly wonder whether they're reviewing the same film that I saw.
Their inaccuracy regarding "minor" details, let alone significant plot points, tends to significantly undermine their credibility as reviewers.
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It's not all so clear to me.
Yes, people often say that this or that actor did this or that in a scene.
But that is hardly the same as deliberately referring to a scene of Ennis standing in Jack's childhood bedroom as "Heath Ledger standing in Jake Gyllenhaal's childhood bedroom," as though Ledger was actually standing in a replica of Gyllenhaal's childhood bedroom which Gyllenhaal's mother had kept as it was when he was a boy living in Beverly Hills.
In any case, I was not criticizing, attacking or disrespecting anyone. I was making a critical observation about the PHENOMENON of CONFLATING an actor with the character he portrays. I merely quoted Spearman as an example of the phenomenon.
I neither edited nor rewrote anyone's stuff, nor could I have done so since I do not have the necessary user privileges.
Nor can quoting and commenting on a post be equated with editing or rewriting it.
The operative word in the title of this forum is "discussion". How can there be discussion if one cannot express an opinion about something in a post? What difference does it make whose quotes I refer to?
Are you saying that commenting on something posted by a member amounts to disrespecting the member unless I either agree with him, or else preface my remarks with apologies and IMHO?
Can you quote the specific Forum Rule(s) prohibiting quoting, commenting on, or disagreeing with something a member posts? I read the Rules and cannot find it.
You can absolutely quote another forum member and absolutely disagree with another forum member, respectfully.
I said I misunderstood, and I'm sorry for that, especially with a new member. You are welcome here.
ETA: if there are any further comments on this please send them in PM, let's get back to the General Discussion.
Thanks.
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This was brilliant fritz. Where and how on earth did you find it ?
I can understand the sheep having to be computer generated but I can't understand why valleys and mountains had to be added or taken away or even made bigger and wider. After going to Alberta this year and traveling around the Rockies....I would have thought there was enough fabulous scenery to have fitted any on the scenes they shot.
I don't either; though I can see why they would use day-for-night and 'edit' shots to make something look just the way they want. Like the first glimpse you get of Brokeback when it's half-shrouded in mist.
BTW, I was surprised awhile back to find out that this is an older kind of trick than we might think, though low-tech by our standards in the old movie days. In Gone with the Wind (that's 1939), there was an early scene at "Twelve Oaks" where a line of carriages supposedly headed up the drive toward the plantation house was actually going nowhere and the set was added later. Of course, that was a backdrop; and some of the wounded soldiers in a scene with hundreds of wounded at a railroad depot were dummies. People did what they could to make it look right.
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And some of those carriages approaching Twelve Oaks cast no shadow. Oops!
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Wow! Thanks so much guys! I've never seen that before!
What a treat!
:-*
**I had never seen this either. The special effects are really not out of proportion; they just enhance the beautiful film.
The music in the clip is beautiful. And it's always wonderful to see something new re BBM.**
kathy :)
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:) Hi - just want to say a couple of things:
1) Whoever Spearman is, I think he falls into the category of a "columnist" (?) who doesn't get the facts right about a pivotal scene from a beautiful film. Saying things like a "plastic pony ???, etc., definitely put me in the mood of "oh, another one who doesn't know what he's talking about. When Ennis goes into Jack's boyhood room, it is one of the saddest scenes in this beautiful film; therefore, I don't give a damn about what he says at all. I have a real feeling he's one of the ones who never even saw BBM.
And it's sad when someone else may "believe" or repeat what some self-professed know-it-all like spearman says.
2) GWTW: Oh yes, there are wonderful special effects in it, by Jack Cosgrove who was a wizard at this, e.g. matte shots, trick photography, process backgrounds, multiple detailed paintings.
kathy
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An interesting thing about Newman's music in the special effects clip is that it's 98% the same as on the Shawshank CD, but the variations are improvements. That's oddly reminiscent of the differences between BBM's official screenplay and the actual film. Every difference is an improvement.
Maybe a year ago I did everything I could to send Newman a fan letter, but no office I spoke to was accepting mail for him.
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Regarding Jay, our new member, here's a good question:
What threads should he read first?
Maybe Symbolism and Imagery and Structure of the Movie and Film Editing.
Stay away from Slash threads unless you have buckets of time to devote to fan fiction.
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Maybe Scene by Scene?
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Photo Caps, especially the older (closed) threads... but bring your sense of humor. If you've recently discovered Brokeback, some of those captions can be tough on raw emotions.
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William Handley's new book available for pre-ordering on Amazon
The Brokeback Book: From Story to Cultural Phenomenon
“There’s a Chinese saying, that you throw a brick to attract jade. So it is that the most precious thing about filmmaking—the reactions of the viewers—is entirely out of the hands of the filmmakers. We set out to make one film with Brokeback Mountain, and in return, we got an overwhelming number of reactions that we never expected from moviegoers who saw themselves, or the other, or both, reflected on the big screen. There is a whole range of Brokeback Mountains, many of which are explored in the fascinating, sometimes contradictory, and always passionate essays in this book.”—Ang Lee, Academy Award–winning director of Brokeback Mountain
http://astore.amazon.com/davecullencom-20/detail/0803226640 (http://astore.amazon.com/davecullencom-20/detail/0803226640)
“Enlightening and provocative, The Brokeback Book is an outstanding collection of personal and scholarly essays. It’s an indispensable guide to a cultural milestone of our time.”—Robert Sklar, author of Movie-Made America: A Cultural History of American Movies
“This extraordinary collection allows us to understand Brokeback Mountain as a social phenomenon, a revisionist Western, a classic love story, and a deeply transformative experience for millions of gay and lesbian viewers. The best movies do more than entertain—they alter the course of cultural history. The Brokeback Book shows us how and why Brokeback Mountain achieved just that.”—Christopher Kelly, film critic for the Fort Worth Star-Telegram and Texas Monthly
“This book itself is a cultural phenomenon. William Handley has assembled a stellar cast of hard-riding contributors and a rich array of takes on the story, film, and ‘event.’ Two dozen essays and a multitude of points of view—from Marxist to genderqueer to creative insider, shaped both in the immediacy of the film’s release and with analytic hindsight—demonstrate eloquently why American culture won’t know how to quit this momentous narrative for many generations to come.”—Thomas Waugh, Research Chair in Sexual Representation and Documentary, Concordia University, Montreal Mel Hoppenheim School of Cinema
About the Author
William R. Handley is an associate professor of English at the University of Southern California. He is the author of Marriage, Violence, and Nation in the American Literary West and the coeditor, with Nathaniel Lewis, of True West: Authenticity and the American West, available in a Bison Books edition.
Contributors: Martin Aguilera, Calvin Bedient, Colin Carman, Alan Dale, Jon Davies, Chris Freeman, Judith Halberstam, William R. Handley, Gregory Hinton, Andrew Holleran, Alex Hunt, David Leavitt, Mun-Hou Lo, Susan McCabe, Daniel Mendelsohn, James Morrison, Vanessa Osborne, Annie Proulx, James Schamus, Michael Silverblatt, Adam Sonstegard, Noah Tsika, Kenneth Turan, Patricia Nell Warren, and David Weiss.
The Brokeback Book builds on earlier debates by novelist David Leavitt, critic Daniel Mendelsohn, producer James Schamus, and film reviewer Kenneth Turan with new and noteworthy interpretations of the Brokeback phenomenon, the film, and its legacy.
Also appearing in print for the first time is Michael Silverblatt’s interview with Annie Proulx about the story she wrote and the film it became.
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William Handley reading from Beyond Brokeback
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Cool John, thanks for all the info you've posted!
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FWIW
18 Films from The Arab Film Festival
October 14-24, 2010
www.arabfilmfestival.org
"Gay films" for mainstream audiences aren't that frequent, and usually just rebrand the same old clichés. The hero of Tom Ford's "A Single Man" commits suicide, and one of the lovers in Ang Lee's way over-praised "Brokeback Mountain" gets murdered; happiness, to say nothing of closure, is out of the question. And then along comes a film like "The String," Ben Attia's tale of 30-year-old, Paris-based haut bourgeois architect Malik (Antonin Stahly), who has been having fun big time there with men, until he comes back to the home of his mother Sara (Claudia Cardinale) after the death of his father Abdelaziz (Lofti Drizri), and finds sex and love with Sara's handsome handyman Bilal (Salim Kechiouche). "The String" has been criticized for the virtues that make it unique. Neither Malik, nor Bilal dies, which in the minds of followers of "A Single Man" and "Brokeback Mountain" is the equivalent to going to hell.
http://www.culturevulture.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=406:8-films-from-the-arab-film-festival-2010&catid=2:film&Itemid=7 (http://www.culturevulture.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=406:8-films-from-the-arab-film-festival-2010&catid=2:film&Itemid=7)
???
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Tuesday, November 23, 2010
5 Years Later - A Reflection on Brokeback Mountain
It has been five years since Brokeback came out and it has proven to have changed the world in unexpected ways. Although it was a box office success and won three Oscars, it lost the Academy Award for Best Picture to Crash (I personally think neither film deserved it). It established Heath Ledger, Jake Gyllenhaal, Michelle Williams, and Anne Hathaway as talented, grown-up, and legitimate actors. And it reminded us of Ang Lee's visual mastery, for which he was handsomely rewarded. But when it comes to LGBTQ inclusion, Brokeback seems to be almost a footnote in the history of gay cinema, generating no real noticeable change to the realm of mainstream movies.
http://eric-jost.blogspot.com/2010/11/5-years-later-reflection-on-brokeback.html (http://eric-jost.blogspot.com/2010/11/5-years-later-reflection-on-brokeback.html)
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Gwyneth Paltrow is a ‘Lush’ and 8 Other Revelations From Chelsea Handler’s Interview Special
7. Anne Hathaway stole underwear from the set of Brokeback Mountain
It may seem ridiculous but the actress, who played Jake Gyllenhaal’s onscreen wife in the film, had a two-prong explanation for the thievery. 1) “It was my most memorable bit of costume” and 2) “I didn’t want anyone else to have it.”
http://www.movieline.com/2010/11/gwyneth-paltrow-is-a-lush-and-8-other-revelations-from-chelsea-handlers-interview-special.php (http://www.movieline.com/2010/11/gwyneth-paltrow-is-a-lush-and-8-other-revelations-from-chelsea-handlers-interview-special.php)
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But when it comes to LGBTQ inclusion, Brokeback seems to be almost a footnote in the history of gay cinema, generating no real noticeable change to the realm of mainstream movies.
??? ??? ???
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Tuesday, November 23, 2010
5 Years Later - A Reflection on Brokeback Mountain
http://eric-jost.blogspot.com/2010/11/5-years-later-reflection-on-brokeback.html (http://eric-jost.blogspot.com/2010/11/5-years-later-reflection-on-brokeback.html)
**What a jerk this blogger is! Another one who obviously never saw BBM and never intended to, yet "comments" on it. I shouldn't have read this blogger's post; all it does is make me angry. And this blog, by a so-called know-it-all (?) is so full of errors and judgements that it should be dismissed entirely. I wish we could be protected by "bloggers" who know nothing whatever of what they speak.**
kathy >:(
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FWIW
18 Films from The Arab Film Festival
October 14-24, 2010
www.arabfilmfestival.org
"Gay films" for mainstream audiences aren't that frequent, and usually just rebrand the same old clichés. The hero of Tom Ford's "A Single Man" commits suicide, and one of the lovers in Ang Lee's way over-praised "Brokeback Mountain" gets murdered; happiness, to say nothing of closure, is out of the question. And then along comes a film like "The String," Ben Attia's tale of 30-year-old, Paris-based haut bourgeois architect Malik (Antonin Stahly), who has been having fun big time there with men, until he comes back to the home of his mother Sara (Claudia Cardinale) after the death of his father Abdelaziz (Lofti Drizri), and finds sex and love with Sara's handsome handyman Bilal (Salim Kechiouche). "The String" has been criticized for the virtues that make it unique. Neither Malik, nor Bilal dies, which in the minds of followers of "A Single Man" and "Brokeback Mountain" is the equivalent to going to hell.
http://www.culturevulture.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=406:8-films-from-the-arab-film-festival-2010&catid=2:film&Itemid=7 (http://www.culturevulture.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=406:8-films-from-the-arab-film-festival-2010&catid=2:film&Itemid=7)
???
**Oh, this is so interesting! I'm so interested in the Arab World's films; so many of these seem very fine. I'm particularly interested in the films from the real Arab Middle East, and not those from North Africa. That region has different viewpoints and customs reflected by its mainly Berber population. Berbers are not Arab blood; they are descended from the original inhabitants of North Africa.
This is a wonderful thing, to have this festival.**
kathy
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I wish we could be protected by "bloggers" who know nothing whatever of what they speak.**
I can stop posting these articles when I find them if that helps.
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To bcj:
**Oh no, you can't do that either. When you post them, it shows how stupid they really are.
I suppose I'm just too enamored of BBM and the boys. It's hard for me to actually read these dumb bloggers' sites.
Believe me, it's not you; it's me. I am the one who should stop reading them!**
kathy
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I can stop posting these articles when I find them if that helps.
nope! Keep on posting! ;D
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**What a jerk this blogger is! Another one who obviously never saw BBM and never intended to, yet "comments" on it. I shouldn't have read this blogger's post; all it does is make me angry. And this blog, by a so-called know-it-all (?) is so full of errors and judgements that it should be dismissed entirely. I wish we could be protected by "bloggers" who know nothing whatever of what they speak.**
kathy >:(
Of course we can't allow people to express judgements.... ::)
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**Well, maybe I over-reacted when I wrote "should be dismissed entirely". As I stated, I'm too enamored of BBM and the boys.
But I do stand by the other things I wrote. I think the Internet should be protected from bloggers; they make such false statements on anything & everything. And today's the day I start ignoring them completely. Honest.**
kathy :)
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I quite like reading bloggers who didn't understand Brokeback Mountain, or hated it, or missed the point entirely. It makes me feel superior and full of righteous indignation, and I can rant and rave.
I enjoy doing that!
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I quite like reading bloggers who didn't understand Brokeback Mountain, or hated it, or missed the point entirely. It makes me feel superior and full of righteous indignation, and I can rant and rave.
I enjoy doing that!
(https://ultimatebrokebackforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi275.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fjj282%2FSanFranciscoJohn%2Ftu2.jpg&hash=37928b0e1a140c5a6bce0cd93b937b55cf63cce4)
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**I like it too.**
kathy :)
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Peoples Choice Movie Poll
Which of these Jake Gyllenhaal movies is your favorite?
http://www.peopleschoice.com/pca/polls/poll.jsp?pollId=64500007 (http://www.peopleschoice.com/pca/polls/poll.jsp?pollId=64500007)
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I quite like reading bloggers who didn't understand Brokeback Mountain, or hated it, or missed the point entirely. It makes me feel superior and full of righteous indignation, and I can rant and rave.
I enjoy doing that!
This made me laugh. :D When I'm in the mood for some righteous indignation, there's a particular newspaper I read which is guaranteed to provide the goods. It can be much more fun than reading something which supports my view!
I didn't read the particular post as being anti-Brokeback Mountain. It seemed to me that the author had hoped the film might be the start of a big change in the way LGBTQ people (and sex in particular) are shown in Hollywood, and is disappointed that there's still a lack of mainstream gay films. He's also saying that American audiences were shocked by the mild sex in BBM (were they?), while British audiences had been watching more explicit stuff for years. I suppose he's just looking at the film with different expectations.
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(https://ultimatebrokebackforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi588.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fss323%2FEuler5853%2FThanksgiving%2Fthanksg2.gif&hash=f9b3c31921fe10f94824807a9d8d57ed935a256e)
Happy Thanksgiving!
Today I am thankful for "our" movie.
I'm thankful for the forum and the
opportunities it's given to me.
I'm thankful for the friendships that
have formed here.
I'm thankful for the members I've met,
and those that I haven't, who keep
this forum busy, and spend their time
here with each other!
May the upcoming holiday season give
you all happiness!
Chuck
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Review: Wainwright sings of love and death
Performer pays tribute to his mother in first Canadian show in almost a year
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RUFUS WAINWRIGHT
With Teddy Thompson
When: Friday night
Where: The Centre in Vancouver for Performing Arts
VANCOUVER — Complex, elegant and heartbreaking.
Those words serve to describe not only Rufus Wainwright’s latest song cycle, All Days Are Nights: Songs For Lulu, but also the man himself.
And Friday night at the Centre in Vancouver for Performing Arts, Wainwright brought the material — largely dedicated to the memory of his late mother, Canadian folk icon Kate McGarrigle — back on home soil for the first time in almost a year.
Entering stage left, garbed in a long, dark dress topped with a large, feathered upper-body apparatus recalling silent-era films and the opera, Wainwright took his place solo at the piano for the first half of his two-hour performance.
Backed by nothing but the sparse visual design of artist Douglas Gordon and his own blinking eyes popping on screen, Wainwright was spellbinding, his songs inducing a flood of emotion that flowed from the stage onto the audience.
The second half of the evening would find Thompson joining Wainwright in a much breezier setting for two beautiful duet renditions: The Maker Makes (from Brokeback Mountain) and Leonard Cohen's Hallelujah.
Read more: http://www.vancouversun.com/Review+Wainwright+sings+love+death/3891845/story.html#ixzz16TCr7dvM
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On NPR's Fresh Air today there was an interview with Anne Hathaway. She not only discussed the most recent movie, but also her motivation in BBM during the phone call with Ennis, specifically about the tire iron.
http://www.npr.org/rss/podcast/podcast_detail.php?siteId=7060034
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On NPR's Fresh Air today there was an interview with Anne Hathaway. She not only discussed the most recent movie, but also her motivation in BBM during the phone call with Ennis, specifically about the tire iron.
http://www.npr.org/rss/podcast/podcast_detail.php?siteId=7060034
Fritz
I'm at work and can't listen. What did she say???
PM Me
please
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Thank God she said what she did - I was so relieved.
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On NPR's Fresh Air today there was an interview with Anne Hathaway. She not only discussed the most recent movie, but also her motivation in BBM during the phone call with Ennis, specifically about the tire iron.
http://www.npr.org/rss/podcast/podcast_detail.php?siteId=7060034
Why don't those of you who have heard it go ahead and discuss it? this is not a spoiler situation. No need to be mysterious, and some people may not be able to hear it.
I'm just curious but no time to listen.
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Why don't those of you who have heard it go ahead and discuss it? this is not a spoiler situation. No need to be mysterious, and some people may not be able to hear it.
I'm just curious but no time to listen.
The part about BBM is fairly near the beginning (at about 9 minutes). Fritz posted a different link which worked for me - here it is:
This link might be better. I know Kim listened to it in France.
http://www.npr.org/2010/11/24/131566903/anne-hathaway-from-princesses-to-passion
The main thing was that AL made Anne aware of both possibilities without telling her what his own belief was: the tire-iron or the tire rim. She played it both ways and doesn't know how the tapes were finally merged by Ang in the film. She said that it was "important for the ambiguity to remain - it is the strength of that scene and what is heart-breaking about it".
She also spoke of her gay brother, and how her family left the Catholic church when he came out.
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Thanks Cally!
That is really great, IMO -- she finally is speaking about it, and she found a way to express it without giving any answer.
Even if she has a definitive position, what she believes would not change the ambiguity (although some might believe it somehow influences the truth of the story) but even if Lureen were a real person, she may or may not "know" the truth -- just like Ennis, she lives with some open space.
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**I am really confused. In the past I've read many times that AH admitted she spoke to Ennis with the fact that she knew she was lying about the "tire rim accident".
Honestly, I did read this several times. She stated she played the scene as "Lureen knew" she was lying to Ennis.**
kathy
p.s. I've also read that AL showed the gay-bashing murder scene in quick flashback because he did not want to "knock the audience over the head with the murder of Jack"; that's also why he removed the scene, which is still shown in the trailer, of the mean guys (later to be gay-bashers) at a garage seeing Jack.
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kathy -
I have never heard that Anne Hathaway discussed the scene with Heath that way, or that she ever hinted, in any way, what she was thinking. Whenever I have heard her talk about it, she gave the same answer she gave on Oprah -- basically that she didn't answer whether Lureen knew or not.
Which IMO is right, even if the actress plays it one way or the other, that doesn't change the ambiguity.
Wasn't there something about Heath being willing to talk to her on the phone during filming -- because their scenes were filmed separately? But it's not really a scene she and Heath acted together.
(what you wrote about the tire iron scene, that is the same as I have heard as well. )
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**Well, I have read it many times going yrs. back. And also - Heath offered to (and did ) call AH (Lureen) during the scene with help. She admitted that, and also stated that was very kind of him to do that. He was on one end; and she was on the other end during the scene.**
kathy
Maybe things I did read are all turned around now; it seems like BBM is getting "picked on" lately by more than a few here. Even in the "quit" discussion, I've never read such things as anti-Jack or anti-Ennis as is being posted now regarding their life-long love.
Neither one would or could ever quit the other.**
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Maybe things I did read are all turned around now; it seems like BBM is getting "picked on" lately by more than a few here. Even in the "quit" discussion, I've never read such things as anti-Jack or anti-Ennis as is being posted now regarding their life-long love.
Neither one would or could ever quit the other.**
Kathy, hey there, good friend! Yes it does seem sometimes like someone may be anti-Jack, or anti-Ennis, in the various discussions. I've noticed people can tend to sympathize more with one than the other, and this derives, perhaps, from their personal identification with different aspects of the two guys and their troubles. That can sometimes lead to very strong opinions, but I haven't seen anyone abandon the love story itself. Besides, if everybody agreed, the forum would shut down, as there would be very little more to say.
You have always seemed to be in the idealistic camp, and forgive both of them their failures (as they generally did each other), and I love that point of view, but when a thread gets lively, somebody will always answer any post that may appear to be harsh or cynical, so, not to worry.
Meanwhile, some of us are a bunch of romantics, aren't we :) ? I know I am. But we are dealing with a writer who snookered us with grizzly bear attitudes, only to mop us all over the floor with what real love can be; and sometimes it isn't pretty. And so the differing levels of anger, at times. Those that seem subtly angry, are only so because they care.
Don't be disappointed. Just keep posting about that true love that may have been shabby, at times, but rose above so many others. And, oh, yeah.....I agree with you on your last line :). That is a busy thread, too, and I'll try to keep up with it, as best as I can.
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^^^^^
Much what I was going to say, Tony. I'm a romantic at heart too, and I have no harsh feelings about either Ennis or Jack, Kathy. I accept that there is no happy ending, but I would dearly love to believe that Jack could never have quitted. However I'm also a realist, and can read the story objectively. AP has created characters so cleverly that we can believe that they do have human frailties and that Jack could have been pushed too far. But I think that part of the whole power of the story is that it's deliberately left ambiguous, as are the other points that we debate so passionately. That was why I was relieved that Anne Hathaway, in this interview at least, said nothing to counteract this when talking about the Phonecall scene - that AL had done different takes, some with with Lureen believing in the tire iron, some with the opposing point of view, and that she herself was not aware of how he finally put the scene together.
From a literary POV, I love the ambiguities (though I found them hard to take at first - in fact I didn't accept that they were there), and I want them to remain.
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Maybe things I did read are all turned around now; it seems like BBM is getting "picked on" lately by more than a few here. Even in the "quit" discussion, I've never read such things as anti-Jack or anti-Ennis as is being posted now regarding their life-long love.
Neither one would or could ever quit the other.**
I've never found BBM getting "picked on"......people have different ways to view different topics. It's what keeps discussion going.
They may be "picking apart" the story from different angles, but I've not seen any (in my opinion) that I would consider hurtful or disrespectful to the book or movie.
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**Well, I have read it many times going yrs. back. And also - Heath offered to (and did ) call AH (Lureen) during the scene with help. She admitted that, and also stated that was very kind of him to do that. He was on one end; and she was on the other end during the scene.**
kathy
Maybe things I did read are all turned around now; it seems like BBM is getting "picked on" lately by more than a few here. Even in the "quit" discussion, I've never read such things as anti-Jack or anti-Ennis as is being posted now regarding their life-long love.
Neither one would or could ever quit the other.**
Don't stress, Kathy. I've read or heard that about Anne and Heath and the phone call too. Although as usual I have no attribution for it.
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Re: Quit / No Quit:
We all love this film, we have been talking about it here for 5 years. Desecra and I have been "hammer and tongs" for a lot of that time on that particular thread. We have different interpretations of the ambiguities in both film and short story. We try not to take it personally, and have great respect for each other and the views we express.
I feel sure we would both like to find some undiscovered nugget in the text that unequivocally proves our point of view, but it isn't going to happen, so we both resort to being as persuasive as possible.
Because we can find no confirmation of our personal views we interpret the story from our own personal experiences and psychology and what we think is most likely to have happened.
It in no way reflects on our love for Jack and Ennis or on the story or film though.
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**I am really confused. In the past I've read many times that AH admitted she spoke to Ennis with the fact that she knew she was lying about the "tire rim accident".
Honestly, I did read this several times. She stated she played the scene as "Lureen knew" she was lying to Ennis.**
kathy
p.s. I've also read that AL showed the gay-bashing murder scene in quick flashback because he did not want to "knock the audience over the head with the murder of Jack"; that's also why he removed the scene, which is still shown in the trailer, of the mean guys (later to be gay-bashers) at a garage seeing Jack.
Totally agree here, Kathy - AH has been quoted many, many times in this Forum saying that she played the scene as lying to Ennis. Everything else is speculation.
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Well, AH did say she played it both ways. Perhaps lying about the accident was what she personally believes - or what Ang Lee told her?
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Kathy, I remember reading that Anne Hathaway had said Lureen was lying, although I don't think she specified what Lureen was lying about. I can't remember where I read it. Anne does talk about the phone call in the Oprah interview from years ago - Oprah asked if Lureen "knew", Anne said that she did, but Jake G disagreed. I think the question was about whether Lureen knew Jack was gay. Anyway, it's interesting that the actors seem to have different takes on the story.
If you mean my posts on the "quit" thread, then you've misunderstood - I'm not anti either Jack or Ennis. They do have flaws (their attitudes to women, for instance) but I have a lot of sympathy for both characters - perhaps slightly more for Ennis, because he I feel he was dealt a crappier hand to start with, in some ways. I feel I'm defending them over on the "quit" thread. In my view, the only problem in their relationship was homophobia. I think we're told about two characters who would have had a lovely, happy life together if it hadn't been for that one factor - which ends up ruining both their lives. They were deeply wronged by the society they found themselves in, in a personal way (Ennis blames himself at the end - we never really do see him, or Jack, blaming the world around them for being homophobic. That's part of the tragedy, that they're brought up to accept and internalise homophobia).
So I come at it from the opposite angle. Their love is a given, the homophobia is the story. I feel that if the problems in their relationship are ignored, then the homophobia is being ignored, and so it seems that they weren't so deeply wronged. (For instance, Ennis's difficulty in accepting the relationship is about homophobia - it's because Jack's a man, not because he doesn't love Jack enough).
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I think I interpreted whatever I heard AH say about the scene in a way that seemed she was reluctant to really answer the question -- and even in the link we just shared, it seems she is still guarding the secret.
Heath being on the other end of the phone with her is not the same as Heath acting the scene with her, right? He was not in a phone booth in a small town when AH acted her scene. The two sides of the conversation were shot at different times.
I am only relating what I believed her to say -- if you all have heard different then maybe that's how it was -- but then it would seem to contradict what she just said in the interview.
*******
I appreciate everybody's explanation of quit/no quit but that conversation should go back to the designated thread. (http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=9841.msg1980820;boardseen#new)
Thanks
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Kathy, hey there, good friend! Yes it does seem sometimes like someone may be anti-Jack, or anti-Ennis, in the various discussions. I've noticed people can tend to sympathize more with one than the other, and this derives, perhaps, from their personal identification with different aspects of the two guys and their troubles. That can sometimes lead to very strong opinions, but I haven't seen anyone abandon the love story itself. Besides, if everybody agreed, the forum would shut down, as there would be very little more to say.
You have always seemed to be in the idealistic camp, and forgive both of them their failures (as they generally did each other), and I love that point of view, but when a thread gets lively, somebody will always answer any post that may appear to be harsh or cynical, so, not to worry.
Meanwhile, some of us are a bunch of romantics, aren't we :) ? I know I am. But we are dealing with a writer who snookered us with grizzly bear attitudes, only to mop us all over the floor with what real love can be; and sometimes it isn't pretty. And so the differing levels of anger, at times. Those that seem subtly angry, are only so because they care.
Don't be disappointed. Just keep posting about that true love that may have been shabby, at times, but rose above so many others. And, oh, yeah.....I agree with you on your last line :). That is a busy thread, too, and I'll try to keep up with it, as best as I can.
:) **Hey tony, my good friend!!
Thanks for your above answer; you're correct. Yes, I will keep posting about E&J's true love. None of us are anti-ennis or anti-jack; we really love them both too much and feel so strongly about them, to the point where I just want them to be happy together! (I'm such a romantic when it comes to those two...the great love...).
kathy ;)
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:) Hi to all of you who contributed replies to my post:
I respect your responses, every one. Naturally I agree more with some and less with others. Yes, like I said to Tony, I am in the "romantic" and "idealistic" camp when it comes to E&J; I'll keep to that always. But I know all of us love them both and care so much for both of them. Not in any sort of "anti-" type way, but in a good way.
Maybe I should just leave it at that. After all, that's what brought us here, anyway - the way we feel about the beautiful, lovely Brokeback Mountain and the two people who are effected so immensely by one summer there throughout their entire lives.
kathy
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I'm a romantic at heart too, and I have no harsh feelings about either Ennis or Jack, Kathy. I accept that there is no happy ending, but I would dearly love to believe that Jack could never have quitted. However I'm also a realist, and can read the story objectively.
There's no completely "objective" reading of a work of literature; that would be more applicable to a textbook. And again, this isn't a math class.
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I've never found BBM getting "picked on"......people have different ways to view different topics. It's what keeps discussion going.
They may be "picking apart" the story from different angles, but I've not seen any (in my opinion) that I would consider hurtful or disrespectful to the book or movie.
Some of the preference for either Ennis or Jack -- or a critical attitude toward them -- might be a reflection of real-life experience with someone with either of those traits. After all, we all bring our experiences to it.
Because we can find no confirmation of our personal views we interpret the story from our own personal experiences and psychology and what we think is most likely to have happened. It in no way reflects on our love for Jack and Ennis or on the story or film though.
That pretty much sums it up!
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There's no completely "objective" reading of a work of literature; that would be more applicable to a textbook. And again, this isn't a math class.
I wasn't saying I read it completely objectively. Although I find it diffficult, as I always tend to react emotionally to things, if I want to contribute to a discussion about what AP is saying to us I try to read the words on the page in a more detached critical way. I don't think maths comes into it.
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I wasn't saying I read it completely objectively. Although I find it diffficult, as I always tend to react emotionally to things, if I want to contribute to a discussion about what AP is saying to us I try to read the words on the page in a more detached critical way.
Good point.
Marge also brings up an interesting thought.
Can one objectively "experience" a work of art that is intrinsically subjective? (i.e. literature?).
One can, I suppose but it certainly takes the fun away.
Sandy, recently and on another thread, recommended a book entitled "Albion's Seed" by David Hackett Fischer.
Fischer, like AP, is a trained historian in the Annales School and the book is a remarkable reflection of the Annales technique of exploring history.
It is an "objective" work to an extent but, of course, Fischer brings his own "subjective" thoughts and ideas to his interpretation of the history he explores.
It is an interesting read but certainly not as entertaining, or perhaps entertaining in a different way, as BBM.
AP employs her historical training techniques in her research and then adopts fictional literature to interpret her findings and, of course, ends up with an intrinsically "subjective" work of art.
Critical analysis of any work of art, (theatre, painting, music, literature, film,) attempts to approach the subject objectively by measuring the work against a set of mutually agreed upon standards. It is not an easy thing to do as evidenced by the imbalance of "reviewers" as opposed to "critics" in any given art form.
In fiction, observations are given a reality that we can identify with, and the work can explore all the options desired by the author.
We can read or write a non-fiction account about the effects of hardship, abuse and poverty on a determined personality, or we can represent those things as Hardy did in Tess of the D’Ubervilles. We can read or write about disappointed romantic expectations and how they might lead to obsessive behaviors, or we can represent those things as Flaubert did in Madame Bovary. These things, as George MacDonald said, “show truth in beauty,” and they allow us not only to observe but to feel and experience.
If you think of parallel worlds existing just a step away from each other, fiction takes a step away from this world and represents reality in people, places and experiences “over there” as opposed to here. Fiction takes what could be a non-fiction account of some reality and changes the purpose and presentation from observation and commentary to observation and experience. Fiction allow you to be the “experiencer” rather than, say, Anne Frank or a soldier wounded in the trenches of Verdun, France.
-
Good point.
Marge also brings up an interesting thought.
Can one objectively "experience" a work of art that is intrinsically subjective? (i.e. literature?).
One can, I suppose but it certainly takes the fun away.
Sandy, recently and on another thread, recommended a book entitled "Albion's Seed" by David Hackett Fischer.
Fischer, like AP, is a trained historian in the Annales School and the book is a remarkable reflection of the Annales technique of exploring history.
It is an "objective" work to an extent but, of course, Fischer brings his own "subjective" thoughts and ideas to his interpretation of the history he explores.
It is an interesting read but certainly not as entertaining, or perhaps entertaining in a different way, as BBM.
AP employs her historical training techniques in her research and then adopts fictional literature to interpret her findings and, of course, ends up with an intrinsically "subjective" work of art.
Critical analysis of any work of art, (theatre, painting, music, literature, film,) attempts to approach the subject objectively by measuring the work against a set of mutually agreed upon standards. It is not an easy thing to do as evidenced by the imbalance of "reviewers" as opposed to "critics" in any given art form.
Intersting comments, Gary. Perhaps you can observe it rather than experience it? But then I suppose the observation is itself an experience.....
And one can experience literature in so many different ways - often simultaneously.
I think I may be sorry I embarked on this :D. And I have to go out now.
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No two people will ever agree on the subjective analysis of a work of art.
When art work is marked at college it is done by two independent lecturers internally, and is then externally marked too.
One mans meat is another man's poison.
This goes for literature too. There are certain standards that have to be met, other than that it is often a matter of opinion.
-
And I have to go out now. ;D ;D ;D ;D
And unless I am totally mistaken you are off to participate in yet another art form in which you
will objectively approach the notes while simultaneously adhering to the subjective interpretation of the director? ;D ;D ;D
Have fun and be careful on that driveway!
g
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No two people will ever agree on the subjective analysis of a work of art.
When art work is marked at college it is done by two independent lecturers internally, and is then externally marked too.
One mans meat is another man's poison.
This goes for literature too. There are certain standards that have to be met, other than that it is often a matter of opinion.
Or one bacterium's phosphorus is another bacterium's arsenic.
-
And unless I am totally mistaken you are off to participate in yet another art form in which you
will objectively approach the notes while simultaneously adhering to the subjective interpretation of the director? ;D ;D ;D
Have fun and be careful on that driveway!
g
I did and I did and I was :).
-
No two people will ever agree on the subjective analysis of a work of art.
When art work is marked at college it is done by two independent lecturers internally, and is then externally marked too.
One mans meat is another man's poison.
This goes for literature too. There are certain standards that have to be met, other than that it is often a matter of opinion.
I suspect no one will ever find a perfect balance between subjective interpretation and objective analysis. Maybe one road to reconciling them would be the principle of 'have your subjective opinion but back it up with examples from the work itself and with clear arguments.'
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Well, AH did say she played it both ways. Perhaps lying about the accident was what she personally believes - or what Ang Lee told her?
Ang Lee: At that time, it's told from Ennis's point of view. You have no choice but to see his imagination. I think it's clear to me that his imagination resorted to his bad memory as a child. Why he goes there is helped by the wife's performance. Anne Hathaway, her performance, I think she's definitely angry and lying about the truth.
http://www.darkhorizons.com/interviews/156/ang-lee-for-brokeback-mountain- (http://www.darkhorizons.com/interviews/156/ang-lee-for-brokeback-mountain-)
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**I remember reading this several times. AL always had it right. Yes!**
kathy
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I've just come across this review of BBM on blu-ray. It's more than a year old but good to read none the less.
http://bluray.highdefdigest.com/2059/brokebackmountain.html
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Hi folks
I've just come across this fabulous recording on Youtube of Gustavo Santaolalalla playing the Brokeback theme live. Wasn't sure where to post this but guess this place is as good as any. Listen to it - it is wonderful!
Best wishes
Glen (aka Heath4Ever)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TtXOMp9JfHY
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Very nice ^^^^
And a very different ending :o
Thank you!
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Hi folks
I've just come across this fabulous recording on Youtube of Gustavo Santaolalalla playing the Brokeback theme live. Wasn't sure where to post this but guess this place is as good as any. Listen to it - it is wonderful!
Best wishes
Glen (aka Heath4Ever)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TtXOMp9JfHY
Wonderful.
When I hear those opening notes something physical happens in my chest - I wonder what is actually going on in there. I would say it was my heart turning over, but that's not really very likely.....
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I've just come across this review of BBM on blu-ray. It's more than a year old but good to read none the less.
http://bluray.highdefdigest.com/2059/brokebackmountain.html
**Andy, what a terrific review this is; so insightful too. I'm so glad you let us see it.**
kathy
p.s. "Ultimately, their repressed love exerts such a powerful need to express itself that..." (just a small part of what is written, which makes such an impact on me).
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Hi folks
I've just come across this fabulous recording on Youtube of Gustavo Santaolalalla playing the Brokeback theme live. Wasn't sure where to post this but guess this place is as good as any. Listen to it - it is wonderful!
Best wishes
Glen (aka Heath4Ever)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TtXOMp9JfHY
I loved watching the musicians' faces as they listened and played.
-
Hi folks
I've just come across this fabulous recording on Youtube of Gustavo Santaolalalla playing the Brokeback theme live. Wasn't sure where to post this but guess this place is as good as any. Listen to it - it is wonderful!
Best wishes
Glen (aka Heath4Ever)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TtXOMp9JfHY
What a wonderful find. Thank you, Glen.
-
I loved watching the musicians' faces as they listened and played.
Especially the violinist.
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Brokeback Breakdown!
Background info: Many talent agencies, agents and actors in Los Angeles use a few online websites
that production companies employ to solicit people for the roles they have to offer for films, television and
what have you. These companies submit to these websites what is called a "breakdown." It is
basically a list of the roles they want to cast that are "broken down" in terms of character, age and
other characteristics needed for the part. Sometimes a brief synopsis of the script is included.
The agencies pay a fee to use these sites as they are not open to the general public for obvious
reasons. When a breakdown is released by the production company, agencies then submit their
clientele for the roles they wish them to be considered for. Some companies also want hard copies
sent to them along with the electronic submissions. Sometimes they do this way ahead of time and
other times they want the submissions within a few days, particularly for television.
A friend of mine works part-time at a talent agency here in Los Angeles and, while visiting one day,
I got to wondering if there was a history function on the site. I asked if I could look up something
and I was rewarded with the original breakdown listing for Brokeback Mountain!
On that first week of March in 2004, here is what agencies, agents and actors would have seen;
the original Brokeback Mountain Breakdown:
Wednesday, Mar. 3, 2004, 12:55 PM
BROKEBACK MOUNTAIN
Feature Film
Focus Features
EXEC PRODUCERS: LARRY MCMURTRY, JAMES SHAMUS, MICHAEL COSTIGAN
PRODUCER: DIANA OSSANA
DIRECTOR: ANG LEE
WRITER: LARRY MCMURTRY AND DIANA OSSANA
CASTING DIRECTOR: AVY KAUFMAN
CASTING ASSOCIATE: ELIZABETH GREENBERG
CASTING ASSISTANT: JESSICA DANIELS, CODY BEKE
START DATE: MID MAY
OVERNIGHT SUBMISSIONS (MUST ARRIVE NO LATER THAN FRIDAY MORNING, 3/5)
HOWEVER, IF YOU ARE UNABLE TO FED-EX IN TIME, PLEASE SUBMIT ELECTRONICALLY ASAP
NOTE: HARD COPY SUBMISSIONS PREFERRED. AVY KAUFMAN CASTING
180 VARICK ST.
16TH FLOOR
NEW YORK CITY, NY 10014 USA
SESSIONS WILL BE HELD THE WEEK OF MARCH 8TH
IN LOS ANGELES.
PLEASE BE SURE TO MARK ENVELOPE "BROKEBACK MOUNTAIN"
ENNIS DEL MAR - HEATH LEDGER
JACK TWIST - JAKE GYLLENHAAL
[JOE AGUIRRE] Middle-aged, stocky, no fool, hair the color of cigarette ash and parted down the middle. He's Jack and Ennis' supervisor at The Farm and Ranch Employment Agency. He is demanding and hard-nosed...
[MONROE] Late 20s - Early 30s. A chubby, little guy. Mostly good-natured, but smug when he wants to be. He's the manager at the local grocery store, where he develops a fondness for Alma whom he eventually marries...
[ALMA JR. @ 16-19] Age 16 -19. Older daughter of Ennis and Alma...
[ALMA JR. @ 9] Age 9. Older daughter of Ennis and Alma. Loves her father and desperately wants to see Mommy and Daddy back together again...
[FRANCINE] Age 7. Younger daughter of Ennis and Alma...
[CASSIE] Mid-twenties. A waitress at a local dive. Lively, very appealing, and curvy in jeans and a t-shirt. She loves to dance and drink cheap white wine. She develops a relationship with Ennis, only to have her heart broken by his coldness and distance towards her...
[LASHAWN MALONE] Mid - Late 20s. Blonde, pretty, skinny and manic. The wife of Randall Malone. A former sorority sister like Lureen. Her speech pattern is similar to the chattering of a squirrel. Jack dances with her at a fundraiser to spite Lureen...
[RANDALL MALONE] Late 20s. Tall, sharp-featured, raw-boned. The husband of Lashawn. He meets Jack and Lureen for the first time after his car breaks down on the side of the road, and they offer to give him and his wife a ride to a charity fundraiser. Seems bothered by idle chit chat and his wife's incessant chattering. Blindly invites Jack to his boss's lake cabin for a weekend of whiskey and fishing...
[JACK'S MOM] 50 - 60. A rather stout woman. Quiet and defeated due to her husband's overbearing nature, but nonetheless pleasant to Ennis when he visits after Jack's death. Doesn't have a very strong resemblance to her son at all...
[JOHN TWIST (JACK'S FATHER)] 50 - 60. Tough, weather beaten, testy, critical. He carries himself in way that makes it clear he expects to be stud duck in the pond. He is stiff and angry toward Ennis when he visits after Jack's death. Doesn't have a very strong resemblance to his son at all...
[L.D. PHILLIPS] 50 - 60 Jack's prick of a father - in- law. Commanding and in charge - he never liked Jack and makes it clear every chance he gets. A wealthy Texas "good ole' boy."...
[LUREEN'S MOTHER] 50 - 60. Lureen's long suffering mother married to the "stud duck" and mother of the Rodeo Queen - she is a wealthy Dallas lady...
[BOBBY TWIST] 8 years old - Jack and Lureen's son, gives his family a hard time at Thanksgiving dinner...
[TIMMY] Middle-Aged. Fat, bespectacled, annoyingly loquacious with a bad case of plumber's butt. Ennis' co-worker, together they shovel asphalt along the highway...
[BASQUE] 30 - 50. Short and silent, he drives Ennis and Jack up the mountain and shows them the ropes. He knows how to make the job easier and gives them advice about their food order...
[CHILEAN SHEEPHERDERS] 25-35, depressed at the sight of their herd mixed in with Ennis and Jack's. They speak no English and are angry at having to work so hard to separate the animals. ..MUST SPEAK SPANISH
[MEXICAN BARTENDER] Serves a lonely Jack some tequila in Juarez...
[YOUNG HANDSOME MEXICAN] 25-35, masculine, dressed for a night out - he makes eye contact with Jack on a dark street...
There's many interesting things you can see here knowing what we now know. For example, Joe Aguirre's character is listed as having hair the color of cigarette ash and parted down the middle. We can see that Jenny's name is still Francine and that L.D.'s last name is Phillips.
Notice, too, that Timmy is supposed to wear glasses and that there's a listing for a role not in the film.
Apparently a bartender was going to be serving Jack a few drinks while he was in Mexico. And, specifically
noted in the characters of both of Jack's parents, is this: Doesn't have a very strong resemblance to his/her son at all...
There's also hints of a scene that was filmed and deleted, when the Basque drives Jack and Ennis up to the mountain. I also see that the roles of Jack and Ennis were noted as already cast, but Lureen and Alma aren't mentioned at all; perhaps they were not yet finalized, but underway.
It's also interesting to note that the breakdown has no plot synopsis--it's not very evident that this is
a gay themed film, although you could read a bit between the lines here and there.
What are your perceptions, reactions, etc.? See anything interesting I might have missed?
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Excellent research and a valuable discovery! I wonder how many more of these early artifacts (and that's what this is) are out there?
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http://www.epinions.com/reviews/mvie_mu-1152313
80 Reviews of Brokeback Mountain
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Excellent research and a valuable discovery! I wonder how many more of these early artifacts (and that's what this is) are out there?
Ditto. Thanks Lyle for this fascinating tid-bit.
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Regarding the Brokeback Mountain Breakdown description of Randall, it seems strange to me that it says he, "Blindly invites Jack to his boss's lake cabin for a weekend of whiskey and fishing..." Does this suggest they originally were going to have Randall not consciously come on to Jack?
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http://www.epinions.com/reviews/mvie_mu-1152313
80 Reviews of Brokeback Mountain
This is yet another part of the early history of the film, and another great find. I hope someone downloads it, as these links begin to fade after a number of years.
Meanwhile, on the call sheet, they wanted a handsome Mexican to meet Jack in the alley. What happened? Did they want to make the encounter more realistic? The guy was ok, but not necessarily a 10.
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Meanwhile, on the call sheet, they wanted a handsome Mexican to meet Jack in the alley. What happened? Did they want to make the encounter more realistic? The guy was ok, but not necessarily a 10.
The 'actor' who played the Mexican rent boy in Brokeback Mountain was none other than the movie's cinematographer, Rodrigo Prieto. A man of many talents - clearly!
Best wishes
Glen
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I would love to entertain Rodrigo, and have a really good chat with him. He is a superb cinematographer whatever his other talents.............................
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http://www.epinions.com/reviews/mvie_mu-1152313
80 Reviews of Brokeback Mountain
This is yet another part of the early history of the film, and another great find. I hope someone downloads it, as these links begin to fade after a number of years.
Meanwhile, on the call sheet, they wanted a handsome Mexican to meet Jack in the alley. What happened? Did they want to make the encounter more realistic? The guy was ok, but not necessarily a 10.
I am surprised we never thought of having a thread on this forum that was comprised of nothing
but film reviews of Brokeback Mountain! Maybe it's because there's something about not being
able to quote full articles or something. But it would be nice to have them all here in one place!
-
Regarding the Brokeback Mountain Breakdown description of Randall, it seems strange to me that it says he, "Blindly invites Jack to his boss's lake cabin for a weekend of whiskey and fishing..." Does this suggest they originally were going to have Randall not consciously come on to Jack?
Yes, that surprised me. I got the feeling that Randall was sizing Jack up, and made the proposal because he suspected Jack was gay. I don't think he approached him randomly. The subject has come up here before and people do seem to see Randall as consciously making a move on Jack.
What would be the point of him asking him "blindly"? To show that Jack was the more forward partner (whereas Randall seems the more forward in the finished film)?
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I am surprised we never thought of having a thread on this forum that was comprised of nothing
but film reviews of Brokeback Mountain! Maybe it's because there's something about not being
able to quote full articles or something. But it would be nice to have them all here in one place
We did think about it years ago, and they are/were here:
http://www.davecullen.com/brokeback/guide/reviews.html (http://www.davecullen.com/brokeback/guide/reviews.html)
Some of the links are no longer valid, and the page hasn't been updated since 13-Mar-2006.
The 'Ultimate Brokeback Guide' can be accessed by clicking on the link at the top of the page, or:
http://www.davecullen.com/brokeback/guide/ (http://www.davecullen.com/brokeback/guide/)
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The 'actor' who played the Mexican rent boy in Brokeback Mountain was none other than the movie's cinematographer, Rodrigo Prieto. A man of many talents - clearly!
Oops. Well, I never said he wasn't attractive....only that the call sheet seemed to be calling for a "10". Thanks, Glen! And, Rodrigo, if you're out there, dude, most people are happy with a "9", and Jack sure was ;).
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I would love to entertain Rodrigo, and have a really good chat with him. He is a superb cinematographer whatever his other talents.............................
Jess.......just a chat :D ?
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http://www.outsports.com/forums/lofiversion/index.php/t5880-0.html
Outsports - Brokeback Mountain discussion starting on 2004-01-14
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Hello Everyone!
A new thread has been started, marking the 5th anniversary of the movie, and the forum.
If you have any specific thoughts, memories, pictures that you'd like to share, join us at this link!
http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=41465.msg1994499#msg1994499
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Oops. Well, I never said he wasn't attractive....only that the call sheet seemed to be calling for a "10". Thanks, Glen! And, Rodrigo, if you're out there, dude, most people are happy with a "9", and Jack sure was ;).
Well, I for one thought Rodrigo Prieto made a pretty cute Mexican prostitute. Here he is in his other, cinematographer role talking to director Ang Lee on the set of Brokeback Mountain.
A piece of inspired casting, if you ask me!
(https://ultimatebrokebackforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi266.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fii252%2Fheath4oscar%2Fprieto1.jpg&hash=61326ccac6ae15c19dc0ad52f77dadb11bd33b0a)
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Hi folks
I've just come across this fabulous recording on Youtube of Gustavo Santaolalalla playing the Brokeback theme live. Wasn't sure where to post this but guess this place is as good as any. Listen to it - it is wonderful!
Best wishes
Glen (aka Heath4Ever)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TtXOMp9JfHY
Oh, it's wonderful!
I never ever get tired of that music, but I can't always listen to it since it sets me in a mood that I need to be alone and have some time to get over.
-
Brokeback Breakdown!
Background info: Many talent agencies, agents and actors in Los Angeles use a few online websites
that production companies employ to solicit people for the roles they have to offer for films, television and
what have you. These companies submit to these websites what is called a "breakdown." It is
basically a list of the roles they want to cast that are "broken down" in terms of character, age and
other characteristics needed for the part. Sometimes a brief synopsis of the script is included.
The agencies pay a fee to use these sites as they are not open to the general public for obvious
reasons. When a breakdown is released by the production company, agencies then submit their
clientele for the roles they wish them to be considered for. Some companies also want hard copies
sent to them along with the electronic submissions. Sometimes they do this way ahead of time and
other times they want the submissions within a few days, particularly for television.
A friend of mine works part-time at a talent agency here in Los Angeles and, while visiting one day,
I got to wondering if there was a history function on the site. I asked if I could look up something
and I was rewarded with the original breakdown listing for Brokeback Mountain!
On that first week of March in 2004, here is what agencies, agents and actors would have seen;
the original Brokeback Mountain Breakdown:
There's many interesting things you can see here knowing what we now know. For example, Joe Aguirre's character is listed as having hair the color of cigarette ash and parted down the middle. We can see that Jenny's name is still Francine and that L.D.'s last name is Phillips.
Notice, too, that Timmy is supposed to wear glasses and that there's a listing for a role not in the film.
Apparently a bartender was going to be serving Jack a few drinks while he was in Mexico. And, specifically
noted in the characters of both of Jack's parents, is this: Doesn't have a very strong resemblance to his/her son at all...
There's also hints of a scene that was filmed and deleted, when the Basque drives Jack and Ennis up to the mountain. I also see that the roles of Jack and Ennis were noted as already cast, but Lureen and Alma aren't mentioned at all; perhaps they were not yet finalized, but underway.
It's also interesting to note that the breakdown has no plot synopsis--it's not very evident that this is
a gay themed film, although you could read a bit between the lines here and there.
What are your perceptions, reactions, etc.? See anything interesting I might have missed?
Excellent find, Lyle!! Thank you.
And I like your observations a lot. I, too, wondered about why Jack's parents should have no resemblence to him.
Is it a hint that he's adopted? Could explain a lot, IMO.
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A lot of those descriptions come right out of the story.
For example, after Ennis meets the Twists, there's a line: "He couldn't see much of Jack in either one of them..."
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A lot of those descriptions come right out of the story.
For example, after Ennis meets the Twists, there's a line: "He couldn't see much of Jack in either one of them..."
I wonder what the thought process behind that line is.
It´s easy to understand the motivation behind Jack not being like his father, but harder to understand why he wasn´t like his mother.
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A lot of those descriptions come right out of the story.
For example, after Ennis meets the Twists, there's a line: "He couldn't see much of Jack in either one of them..."
I always interpreted that as meaning their personalities.
Whereas in the breakdown that Lyle posted, I understood it meant their external appearance. But I could be wrong.
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I thought it meant their appearance (in the book), as Ennis had only just met them. But I was surprised by that scene in the film - I thought there was something of Jack in his mother. Maybe they changed their minds about the casting. (Or maybe I saw something which wasn't there - it has been known!).
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I wonder what the thought process behind that line is.
It´s easy to understand the motivation behind Jack not being like his father, but harder to understand why he wasn´t like his mother.
This has been chewed over in slash quite a bit. From what we're told, I can imagine Jack being fathered outside the marriage maybe, and why should he have any traits from whoever the parents are - it doesn't always work that way does it?
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The news today was telling us what this year's 25 additions to the National Film Registry
would be and I began to think of Brokeback Mountain being added to that list some day.
I wondered about the eligibility for films and so I looked up the info.
To be eligible for the Registry, a film must be at least 10 years old and be “culturally, historically, or aesthetically significant.”
Well, five years from now or right now, I think Brokeback Mountain fits the bill.
Looking at the list of 550 films now on the registry, it is no surprise that older
films are more likely to be chosen than newer films, but it is a very wide selection.
The newest film on the list is from 1996. Fargo. In fact, the whole decade of the
90's is now eleigible and only 13 films are on the list from that decade.
A film must be ten years old to qualify for inclusion. Five films have been chosen
for the registry on their first year of eligibility. They are: Do the Right Thing,
Raging Bull, Goodfellas, Toy Story, and Fargo.
The registry lets anyone submit movies for consideration. They say:
Please do vote: the number of public votes a film receives is a factor seriously weighed during the selection process by the Librarian of Congress and members of the National Film Preservation Board.
So we could influence their decision by a lot of us submitting, but we'll have to wait 5 years.
In the meantime, send them some selections for next year and we'll all get in the habit!
Nominate films for the Next National Film Registry
And other interesting information:
http://www.loc.gov/film/vote.html
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This has been chewed over in slash quite a bit. From what we're told, I can imagine Jack being fathered outside the marriage maybe, and why should he have any traits from whoever the parents are - it doesn't always work that way does it?
you'd think annie would have mentioned in the story if jack was adopted, but you do hear about fathers (or mothers) not fully accepting their step children and all that.... who knows.
i don't see much resemblance to jack in either parent in the flilm, but it worked well enough. it worked beautifully, actually... you don't see much of jack in bobby, either, or any ennis in junior (at any age)... but it all worked out.
it would have been very interesting if naomi foner and stephen gyllenhaal were cast as jack's mom and dad... but that would have gone against the brokeback breakdown. :D
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I was reading a review of 'Annie Hall' a few minutes ago, and it contained a link to the National Film Registry, and I thought about Brokeback Mountain. And then I hop over to the forum and find this!
The news today was telling us what this year's 25 additions to the National Film Registry
would be and I began to think of Brokeback Mountain being added to that list some day.
I wondered about the eligibility for films and so I looked up the info.
(https://ultimatebrokebackforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbaycityforums.bbmfoundation.org%2Fimages%2Ftwilightzone.jpg&hash=fc7721a6dea92a20b285afc83d11366041aca3a8)
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I've been dizzy a lot lately.
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This has been chewed over in slash quite a bit. From what we're told, I can imagine Jack being fathered outside the marriage maybe, and why should he have any traits from whoever the parents are - it doesn't always work that way does it?
Hello, Andy!
Canstandit was always of the opinion that Mr. Twist knocked up Mrs. Twist during his days on the rodeo circuit, and had to both marry her and give up rodeo, which would account for his bitterness toward Jack. I haven't ever agreed with this thinking. Myself, I've always wondered if Mr. Twist was a closet case himself, who hated gays, and hated Jack because he knew Jack was gay and seemed to have found someone. Sneer: "Ennis Del Mar, he used to say…" Maybe he was jealous.
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Hello, Andy!
Canstandit was always of the opinion that Mr. Twist knocked up Mrs. Twist during his days on the rodeo circuit, and had to both marry her and give up rodeo, which would account for his bitterness toward Jack. I haven't ever agreed with this thinking. Myself, I've always wondered if Mr. Twist was a closet case himself, who hated gays, and hated Jack because he knew Jack was gay and seemed to have found someone. Sneer: "Ennis Del Mar, he used to say…" Maybe he was jealous.
Hey Charlotte,
I have no problem with Jo's theory but my favourite is that OMT isn't Jack's father - the father being someone Ma T was seeing at the same time but chose not to marry. OMT's attitude is based on his suspicions that he may not be the father but could never bring the subject up. Crazy I know but we are in the realm of otherworld after all. ;)
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It was always my opinion that the true meaning of "I know where Brokeback Mountain is" was that OMT had been on the rodeo circuit and knew what sometimes went on there, as well as on mountains in a mostly male environment.
I don't know if that means he was secretly gay or not, but he was certainly well aware of such matters.
The sort of control he tried to keep over his wife would put the probability of a jealous, heterosexual, control freak at the top of my list though.
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Referring back to the beginning of this discussion -- the call from casting --
I agree with the poster who said it was probably a reference back to the line in the book.
In the book, Jack says "Tell you what..." as a habitual way of speaking more often than he does in the film. "Tell you what, I'm commutin 4 hours a day." and "Tell you what I married the cutest little gal in Texas, Lureen." (to alma) Those quotes are just from memory, maybe different but the "tell you what"s are there.
So in the book, Ennis goes to Lightning Flat, looking for some trace of Jack. He can't see it in J's parents.
Then, the moment OMT opens his mouth, he says "Tell you what..."
and for me that pretty much would have made Ennis think of Jack, and he would have known that this man was Jack's father.
All the speculation, I can't comment on, except to say I think it's good enough in the canon interpretation, that he probably is Jack's biological father.
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I like that "Tell you what"- theory, Ellen!
Never thought of it like that before.
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Can anyone verify this?
Hangover cures from around the world
From the scientific to the outlandish, every drinking culture has its own perspective on curing a hangover. What do you do?
Rabbit-dropping tea was a favourite of cowboys from the old west to counter the effects of too much whiskey the night before. This concoction actually featured in the original script for Brokeback Mountain, but the scene was later cut.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/wordofmouth/2011/jan/04/hangover-cure (http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/wordofmouth/2011/jan/04/hangover-cure)
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Epiphany on Brokeback Mountain
Dr. David Jenkins teaches at the Candler School of Theology, Emory University, in Atlanta.
The years of emotional and physical isolation, the internalized homophobia, the denial of self, and the denial of love, converge like rivers flooding the grief-stricken plains. All that we see and feel is desolation.
Who doesn’t desire to be safe in our own home, at work, at school, in our church, in our own skin? Yet this is not the real or perceived reality for most lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgendered people in our communities and congregations, even when “Will and Grace” airs on prime-time.
I believe that the official rulings and language of our churches about something we call “homosexuality” only serves to strengthen homophobia’s hateful grip on our world....Like judgments from the Inquisition, they are as lethal as a tire iron in the hands of violent men...
I wonder as I wander at the foot of Brokeback Mountain if the church has the capacity and courage to declare a Jubilee... a time and space in which it would listen to the sacred love stories of Jack and Ennis ... setting aside worn-out labels such as “homosexual” for words we understand: son, daughter, friend, neighbor, sister, brother, partner.
http://www.covenantnetwork.org/sermon%26papers/jenkins.htm (http://www.covenantnetwork.org/sermon%26papers/jenkins.htm)
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Amen.
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"Brokeback Mountain" open question on Yahoo
Near the end of the movie, when Ennis goes to visit Jack's parents, do you think they knew that Jack and Ennis had a romantic relationship? Do you think they were supportive because Jack's mother didn't seem resentful at all. Just wondering! ahah. I love that movie!
* 36 minutes ago
* - 4 days left to answer.
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20110106185225AAsNmjv (http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20110106185225AAsNmjv)
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I wonder what the thought process behind that line is.
It´s easy to understand the motivation behind Jack not being like his father, but harder to understand why he wasn´t like his mother.
...but Jack was like his mother - both of them stayed in relationships that they didn't feel were always advantageous to them, that were even sometimes painful. Behavioral traits sometimes mark deeper connections between parents and children than the more obvious co-incidental traits.
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They weren't talking about not being alike PHYSICALLY?
Children... and adults... pick up speaking and gestering habits from the people they're around, so Jack would be like his parents in those aspects just as he would some speech patterns or accents from having moved to and lived in Texas.
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They weren't talking about not being alike PHYSICALLY?
Children... and adults... pick up speaking and gestering habits from the people they're around, so Jack would be like his parents in those aspects just as he would some speech patterns or accents from having moved to and lived in Texas.
I always have interpreted this as being alike, not looking alike. Just another ambiguity to deal with, I guess.
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When I meet someone's parents, I look for physical similarities with the children. I think that's what people hear all the time, starting when a baby is born... he looks just like his daddy (the mailman!) Of course, the observation "he's just like his daddy" usually refers to some negative behavior....
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Interesting Statistic (2011-01-08):
Google Web Search for brokeback
Results 1 - 30 of about 2,860,000 for brokeback
(anyone have some free time to check out each occurrence) ;D
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Interesting Statistic (2011-01-08):
Google Web Search for brokeback
Results 1 - 30 of about 2,860,000 for brokeback
(anyone have some free time to check out each occurrence) ;D
I've already done that ;D
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I've already done that ;D
:D :D
I'm not surprised, John!! ;D
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What was the date that Ennis received the postcard back, stamped deceased?
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**To me it is very vague. In the ss AP says it was months after November that Ennis rec'd his postcard back. However, in the film this is not the case at all.
I have always thought, though, as Ennis sees that card with the red "Deceased" on it, that the card came back before a/any November meeting because Ennis did not seem very upset at the fact of not hearing from Jack yet. I believe Ennis would be extremely upset if he hadn't heard before November Either way, the ending is tragic - for both.**
kathy :(
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I don't have my copy of the Screenplay to hand, but I think I remember that there was a discrepancy - that Ennis went to LF the year after the last meeting. I remember people talking about viewing the meeting with Cassie in the light of that - Ennis hadn't heard from Jack and wondered if he'd quit him. Somebody also had a screenshot of a flyer which Ennis picked up with the postcard which suggested that he'd received the postcard the year after the meeting.
Personally, I agree with you Kathy, for both the film and the book. It's the interpretation which makes the most sense, I think.
It hadn't occurred to me, though, that AP meant months after November. I thought she meant months after Jack's death. If people read it as November that would explain why the screenplay has it coming back the year after. I thought it was maybe just a mistake, but maybe it's an alternative way of interpreting that line.
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The Sunday New York Times had to BBM-related articles.
One was a review of AP's latest, nonfiction book, about her building a house in Wyoming.
The other was an article about being single, female and Mormon. The author stated that as an act of rebeliiousness against the strictures of her church, she went to see Brokeback Mountain with two lesbian friends.
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At their last meeting, the screenplay says:
EXT: WYOMING MOUNTAINS: TRAILHEAD: MORNING: PRESENT: CONTINUOUS: 1981
Then:
EXT: RIVERTON: WYOMING: POST OFFICE: DAY: 1982
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It seems to me that the dates on the screenplay are a total cockup.
What is actually shown on the film is Ennis arriving at the Twist ranch in the autumn. The leaves are brown and the fields are golden and have been harvested.
In the book, Jack's room "was tiny and hot, afternoon sun pounding through the west window,"
This leaves me feeling it was probably September / early October.
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The Sunday New York Times had to BBM-related articles.
One was a review of AP's latest, nonfiction book, about her building a house in Wyoming.
The other was an article about being single, female and Mormon. The author stated that as an act of rebeliiousness against the strictures of her church, she went to see Brokeback Mountain with two lesbian friends.
This lady needs a pat on the back.
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I saw the film before I read the SS. So ....when Ennis says to Jack "This is a one shot thing ".....in the film , I thought he meant it was just that once,that one night and it was never going to happen again let alone "knew how the rest of the summer would go" as in the SS. Was there anyone else who thought this ?
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I saw the film before I read the SS. So ....when Ennis says to Jack "This is a one shot thing ".....in the film , I thought he meant it was just that once,that one night and it was never going to happen again let alone "knew how the rest of the summer would go" as in the SS. Was there anyone else who thought this ?
Yes, and I still think that it what he meant.
He changed his mind at SNIT though.
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I don't have my copy of the Screenplay to hand, but I think I remember that there was a discrepancy - that Ennis went to LF the year after the last meeting. I remember people talking about viewing the meeting with Cassie in the light of that - Ennis hadn't heard from Jack and wondered if he'd quit him. Somebody also had a screenshot of a flyer which Ennis picked up with the postcard which suggested that he'd received the postcard the year after the meeting.
Personally, I agree with you Kathy, for both the film and the book. It's the interpretation which makes the most sense, I think.
It hadn't occurred to me, though, that AP meant months after November. I thought she meant months after Jack's death. If people read it as November that would explain why the screenplay has it coming back the year after. I thought it was maybe just a mistake, but maybe it's an alternative way of interpreting that line.
**Thank you, des. It remains very vague. Fritz sent me a copy of the 2003 screenplay, but there is nothing in it similar to what you state in your 1st paragraph above. Also, we know that Larry and Diana - and AL - made revisions for the next version of the screenplay too, which is published in the book "BBM - Story to Screenplay". But to me the film is perfection anyway.**
kathy
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Kathy, I don't have my Story to Screenplay book to hand, but I think it was just as quoted above - the postcard comes the year after. I have no idea why that was changed. And it reminds me that Jack died in 1981, not 1983, and that they're older when they first meet. It would be interesting to know why it was changed. I like to think of the dates in the screenplay as just a mistake. But it's interesting that Annie Proulx has Ennis making a mistake about the ages of his daughters too.
Suelyblu, I read the short story first, and I still wasn't sure what a "one shot thing" was meant to be. Obviously, in the short story, it doesn't mean that the sex isn't going to happen again. Jack says it, but what does he mean? I wasn't sure if it meant a one off as in it's just for this summer and not going to continue, or a one off as in we're straight and this is an exception in special circumstances. Maybe it's the latter, because it's said in the context of Ennis saying he's not queer, and Jack claiming that he isn't either, rather than a discussion about whether it will continue.
The film is different, though. Having read the story first, I viewed it as if it meant the same thing, and I don't think it occurred to me at the time that it could mean that they weren't going to have sex again. Doesn't the "nobody's business" line come up in the film as well, though? That does seem to hint that they're making an agreement to continue (as long as it's on the understanding that they're not queer! :)).
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Kathy, I don't have my Story to Screenplay book to hand, but I think it was just as quoted above - the postcard comes the year after. I have no idea why that was changed. And it reminds me that Jack died in 1981, not 1983, and that they're older when they first meet. It would be interesting to know why it was changed. I like to think of the dates in the screenplay as just a mistake. But it's interesting that Annie Proulx has Ennis making a mistake about the ages of his daughters too.
I actually think they are a mistake!
Or-- put it this way -- when "changes" that are not prominent in the film mess with the meaning of the story, I believe we can judge that the film makers didn't anticipate anyone doing screen caps and extreme zooms into the postcard props, or Ennis's junk mail props.
What makes no sense is for Ennis to receive the postcard at any time after the anticipated November. As kathy said earlier, that would have introduced about of year of Ennis wondering whether Jack had quit him. That would have been really significant.
In the story, and as depicted in the film, Ennis didn't go through that. He was anticipating hearing from Jack about November, he got the postcard marked "deceased" some time before November, he made the phone call to Lureen, and then he drove to Lightning Flat, probably in the fall.
I think we are spinning wheels if we look beyond the intention of the author and the first (few) experience(s) of the film -- what we need to know has not been intentionally hidden from us.
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I actually think they are a mistake!
Or-- put it this way -- when "changes" that are not prominent in the film mess with the meaning of the story, I believe we can judge that the film makers didn't anticipate anyone doing screen caps and extreme zooms into the postcard props, or Ennis's junk mail props.
What makes no sense is for Ennis to receive the postcard at any time after the anticipated November. As kathy said earlier, that would have introduced about of year of Ennis wondering whether Jack had quit him. That would have been really significant.
In the story, and as depicted in the film, Ennis didn't go through that. He was anticipating hearing from Jack about November, he got the postcard marked "deceased" some time before November, he made the phone call to Lureen, and then he drove to Lightning Flat, probably in the fall.
I think we are spinning wheels if we look beyond the intention of the author and the first (few) experience(s) of the film -- what we need to know has not been intentionally hidden from us.
My view entirely.
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The short story says that their final meeting was in May of 1983.
Then it says that Ennis didn't hear about the accident for months.
November woulda been 6 months later, so I think it makes sense
to believe that Annie meant before November, for the reasons you
guys have stated. Also, if Ennis had sent a postcard it would not have
taken that long to come back to him, into the next year...not even in
Wyoming!
The end of the movie, in the screenplay, the dates that Alma, Jr. visits,
is in 1984, so this makes sense that their final meeting was in 1983, and
then he visits Lightning Flat in the fall and in the spring Alma, Jr. visits,
according to the short story. This is what we get from the film, regardless
of the screenplay indications, so that's all that matters, I guess!
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The screenplay also says that when Cassie visits Ennis to ask where he's been,
that it's in a Denny's!
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It seems to me that the dates on the screenplay are a total cockup.
What is actually shown on the film is Ennis arriving at the Twist ranch in the autumn. The leaves are brown and the fields are golden and have been harvested.
In the book, Jack's room "was tiny and hot, afternoon sun pounding through the west window,"
This leaves me feeling it was probably September / early October.
**Jess, this is exactly what I've always thought. Then when alma jr. goes to see Ennis at his trailer, it seemed colder; they both had jackets (but not completely heavy jackets) on. I just took the time period to be what the film repeatedly states - 20 years - and the end of the film is in early winter, 1983. The film is very vague with dates - but I don't mind. I seem to think this is what AL, Larry & Diana wanted.**
kathy
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My view entirely.
**To ellen and jess:
My view entirely too.**
kathy
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**Jess, this is exactly what I've always thought. Then when alma jr. goes to see Ennis at his trailer, it seemed colder; they both had jackets (but not completely heavy jackets) on. I just took the time period to be what the film repeatedly states - 20 years - and the end of the film is in early winter, 1983. The film is very vague with dates - but I don't mind. I seem to think this is what AL, Larry & Diana wanted.**
Partly because of the brief shot of a mass of yellow flowers in the distance, I took it to be early spring, a time when people in a climate like Wyoming's would still be wearing jackets. But if Alma, Jr. was born in late summer or early fall of 1964 and she's 19 in that scene it would be 1984.
IMO the time is a built-in inconsistency that we'll never unravel. But trying to do it can be some kinda high-class entertainment. :)
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It's probably not relevant, but Ennis "stepped around in worn boots, jeans and shirts summer and winter, added a canvas coat in cold weather". Maybe he layered the shirts but it never seemed like a lot of clothes, especially if he didn't wear underwear ("no drawers, no socks, Jack noticed"). Apart from adding the canvas coat, he seems to be oblivious to the cold, to Jack's exasperation.
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I saw the film before I read the SS. So ....when Ennis says to Jack "This is a one shot thing ".....in the film , I thought he meant it was just that once,that one night and it was never going to happen again let alone "knew how the rest of the summer would go" as in the SS. Was there anyone else who thought this ?
That's what I thought too when I saw it, Suley.
And I still think that's what film Ennis meant.
He was so ashamed of what he'd done, on many levels, that he was determined never to let it happen again.
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That's what I thought too when I saw it, Suley.
And I still think that's what film Ennis meant.
He was so ashamed of what he'd done, on many levels, that he was determined never to let it happen again.
I didn't see it that way simply because of the end of the line: ...got goin on here. His use of the present tense suggests to me that it's an ongoing thing but just for as long as they're on the mountain.
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Good point, Andy. I'd forgotten those words were there. That would have to mean that they're planning to continue - and that conversation feels to me like an agreement to continue under certain rules.
(In the short story, it takes place during the sex, when they're already continuing :)).
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I didn't see it that way simply because of the end of the line: ...got goin on here. His use of the present tense suggests to me that it's an ongoing thing but just for as long as they're on the mountain.
Maybe you're right, Andy. I never thought of it that way.
But OTOH - and here I'm venturing into something I really should stay out of, namely the English language, and Wyomingish in particular - I seem to notice more than once in the film that they use the present tense where I was taught not to. Only one example comes to mind right now, when OMT talks about Jack's plans to bring Ennis to LF: "so he says".
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It is quite common in standard informal spoken English to use the present tense to indicate that a past action still has a particular relevance at the time spoken.
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It is quite common in standard informal spoken English to use the present tense to indicate that a past action still has a particular relevance at the time spoken.
Ok. So that makes sense in connection with what Andy said.
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Maybe you're right, Andy. I never thought of it that way.
But OTOH - and here I'm venturing into something I really should stay out of, namely the English language, and Wyomingish in particular - I seem to notice more than once in the film that they use the present tense where I was taught not to. Only one example comes to mind right now, when OMT talks about Jack's plans to bring Ennis to LF: "so he says".
But actually I think this is a good point. If Ennis said "that was a one shot thing" then we would be really certain he was talking about the one time.
(in the film.)
By the time he says it in the short story, their sex is already, as Desecra points out, past the total of one times.
But to affirm everybody's confusion ( :) ) I will say that the expression confused me even in the story, because to me "one-shot" means once.
Really, I believe it's an example of Annie Proulx looking for an original way (and possibly inarticulate way) for Ennis to express something, and I believe this dialogue made it into the movie because it was in the story and they used as much of the original dialogue as possible.
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Hi, everybody ! With regard to the "one-shot thing" statement, this came up last year, from a German forum member, in the Scene-by-Scene section, First Night in Tent. I didn't express myself very well there in trying to answer his question, but basically said what Fritz said, above, as far as grammatical/tense meaning, only not so briefly and well as Fritz.
Anyhoo, the guy wrote to Diana Ossana, and she wrote him back, explaining the general meaning. The subject starts on pg. 263, and her letter to him is on pg. 264, of that thread. I hope this helps.
ETA: the subject covered 3 pages, and it has occurred to me the major interest would be in Diana Ossana's answer. That was in post 3955, if you want to do a quickie.
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Thanks Tony!
I'll take a look.
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Question from California Polytechnic State University, English 251--Great Books I: Love in the Ancient World:
2. Brokeback Mountain (or any other "serious" movie) is/is not "tragic" by strict Greek standards. Discuss.
http://cla.calpoly.edu/~smarx/courses/251/AlternativeGetty.htm (http://cla.calpoly.edu/~smarx/courses/251/AlternativeGetty.htm)
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It has sheep, not goats.
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good analysis fritz. ;D
but the tragedy is Greek to me. ;)
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Question from California Polytechnic State University, English 251--Great Books I: Love in the Ancient World:
2. Brokeback Mountain (or any other "serious" movie) is/is not "tragic" by strict Greek standards. Discuss.
http://cla.calpoly.edu/~smarx/courses/251/AlternativeGetty.htm (http://cla.calpoly.edu/~smarx/courses/251/AlternativeGetty.htm)
I would take great exception to the assumption made by this question. Also, we have had some very lively discussions here on the forum regarding this very subject.
While BBM and "other serious movies" may not, well DO not, strictly follow the form popularized by Aeschylos (a trilogy followed by a fourth "comedy") , they assuredly fall within the framework prescribed by Aristotle. Furthermore "Oresteia" is the only such complete play to survive so it is difficult, indeed, to say that contemporary work does not fit the formula. Very few dramatists attempt to incorporate the Aeschylos format. O'Neill, of course, famously did so with his masterpiece "Mourning Becomes Electra"
Here,however, is how Aristotle defines "tragedy".
Tragedy is an imitation of an action that is admirable, complete (composed of an introduction, a middle part and an ending), and possesses magnitude; in language made pleasurable, each of its species separated in different parts; performed by actors, not through narration; effecting through pity and fear the purification of such emotions.
BBM certainly falls within the framework of this definition. Furthermore the character of Ennis fits quite neatly into the mold of the classic tragic hero and even more so when considered in the light of Miller's "common man" expansion.
Aristotle might have some concerns regarding the major role society (Fate and the "gods") and other external factors play in the tale of Ennis and Jack and might, therefore, argue that BBM falls more neatly into the category of "misadventure" or "social drama". He would, I think, take into serious consideration the role of "free will" and "choice" in BBM along with clear use of hamartia, anagnorisis and catharsis,and come to the final conclusion that BBM fits the classic definition of literary tragedy. Ennis certainly experiences a "change from ignorance to awareness of a bond of love ".
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It is quite common in standard informal spoken English to use the present tense to indicate that a past action still has a particular relevance at the time spoken.
True.
In addition, in the SS, Ennis does not say this line, Jack does and that always made more sense to me.
This is the beginning of his acquiescence to his perceived understanding of Ennis' deep rooted fear. By saying "one shot thing" he is reassuring Ennis that neither one of them is "queer" and that their relationship, and especially, the sex, is unique to them and would not, could not, occur between either one of them and another man. It's a lie, Jack knows it is a lie, and it foreshadows the final confrontation at the trailhead.
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Gregg Allman: The Road DOES Go On Forever
After Four Decades the Singer-Songwriter Is Still Touring, and Finding Inspiration in the Most Unusual Places
Crossroads seem to come and go, yeah.
The gypsy flies from coast to coast
Knowing many, loving none
Bearing sorrow, havin' fun
But back home he'll always run . . . to sweet Melissa.
Was there a Melissa, Allman was asked.
"No," he told Reid. "It was a person that I had dreamed up, and I had everything in the song written but the title. And I got, 'But back home I’ll always run with sweet Barbara . . .' 'With sweet Mary Jo. . . '
Allman laughed, "I was flabbergasted, you know?"
Inspiration came to him in, of all places, a grocery store.
"I was the only one in the store, except for this one Spanish lady and she had this little toddler with her," Allman said. "She was everywhere. And one time, she just took off down this one aisle, and the lady just freaked out. And she went, 'Oh, Melissa, Melissa come back!'"
"And I went, 'Oh! (snap) Lady, I could kiss 'ya," he laughed. "'Melissa,' that's it!"
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/01/16/sunday/main7251971.shtml (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/01/16/sunday/main7251971.shtml)
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good analysis fritz. ;D
but the tragedy is Greek to me. ;)
**It certainly is a Greek tragedy to me, too, ellen. And - I believe it has all the elements of one, Shakespearean too.**
kathy
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Gregg Allman: The Road DOES Go On Forever
After Four Decades the Singer-Songwriter Is Still Touring, and Finding Inspiration in the Most Unusual Places
Was there a Melissa, Allman was asked.
"No," he told Reid. "It was a person that I had dreamed up, and I had everything in the song written but the title. And I got, 'But back home I’ll always run with sweet Barbara . . .' 'With sweet Mary Jo. . . '
Allman laughed, "I was flabbergasted, you know?"
A sidebar to that --
there was an Elizabeth Reed ("In Memory of Elizabeth Reed"), but none of the ABB ever knew her. She's buried in the back of Rose Hill Cemetery where the band members hung out in the early days -- not as odd as it seems, as the 1840s-vintage cemetery has always doubled as a public park.
The family graveside is on two levels with a retaining wall and trees on either side, so it looks a tiny bit like an outdoor stage.
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I would take great exception to the assumption made by this question. Also, we have had some very lively discussions here on the forum regarding this very subject.
~ ~ ~ ~
BBM certainly falls within the framework of this definition. Furthermore the character of Ennis fits quite neatly into the mold of the classic tragic hero and even more so when considered in the light of Miller's "common man" expansion.
Aristotle might have some concerns regarding the major role society (Fate and the "gods") and other external factors play in the tale of Ennis and Jack and might, therefore, argue that BBM falls more neatly into the category of "misadventure" or "social drama". He would, I think, take into serious consideration the role of "free will" and "choice" in BBM along with clear use of hamartia, anagnorisis and catharsis,and come to the final conclusion that BBM fits the classic definition of literary tragedy. Ennis certainly experiences a "change from ignorance to awareness of a bond of love ".
Good analysiis, and if I may add --
Greek tragedy often suffers in translation for modern audiences, in more ways than just language. It reflects the culture, class structure and religion of a civilization that certainly had a big impact on ours but nevertheless is rather remote from us in many ways. Additionally, the extant tragedies (as well as comedies) were written for annual competitions and however broad a scope they had, they were also basically topical. That's more apparent in the comedies than in the tragedies, but The Trojan Women is a good example. In that sense, both the tragedies and comedies would have had a dimension and meaning for the original audiences that they can't have today.
There's also the fact that the term "tragedy" has changed several times over the centuries. BBM could easily be considered a tragedy in the context of modern drama.
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La Angry Xicana Gives Sassy Performance
With an act rooted in cultural taboo, lesbian sexuality, and growing up Latina in America, Anthony’s performance offered spectators wit and wisdom. Channeling the consciousness of colored women, Anthony dived into diatribe, disarming the prejudices that protect the politics of racism and sexual bigotry. Like many performers before her, Anthony continued the tradition of using humor to sidestep the sensitive boundaries that typically leave these subjects out of discourse.
“And wait, they give you Brokeback Mountain?” Anthony cried. “That was SUPPOSED to be Brokeback Ranchero, aye!” Anthony made this joke early in her set, which pinned crosshairs on one of her favorite targets: Hollywood.
Anthony’s problem with the 2005 film is that the short story it was adapted from was written about two Chicano cowboys, and instead Hollywood gave us “wholesome whiteness.”
http://thebottomline.as.ucsb.edu/2011/01/la-angry-xicana-gives-sassy-performance (http://thebottomline.as.ucsb.edu/2011/01/la-angry-xicana-gives-sassy-performance)
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“Brokeback Mountain” Preview Kitsuné Men Fall / Winter Collection 2011
The Maison Kitsuné fall/winter 2011 collection’s style is a tribute to “Brokeback Mountain” by Ang Lee and is inspired by the west american style in the 60′s….For the next fall the designer Masaya Kuroki choose to work on some heavy pieces, a worker style jacket, a cotton check shirt, a woolen hunter jacket, brushed cotton chino, a 6ply shawlcollar cardigan, a lambswool blanket… A modern and elegant version of outdoor style clothing, with beautifull fabrics from Limonta, Thomas Mason, 100th years celebration HarrisTweed, Kuroki’s denim and a very prestigious knitting from Corgi!
http://www.kitsune.fr/journal/2011/01/mode/brokeback-mountain-fall-winter-collection-20112012/ (http://www.kitsune.fr/journal/2011/01/mode/brokeback-mountain-fall-winter-collection-20112012/)
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To beat a dead horse, 'This is a one shot thing' means exactly what it sounds like: all we have to figure out is what 'this' represents. If we think of 'this' as meaning 'the sex we had last night,' the sentence is meaningless (in story context) and we know Ennis is very economical with his words, not usually wasting many; if we take 'this' to mean 'gettin nekkid and close every chance we get for the summer,' it makes perfect sense.
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Five Books I’d Read
Posted by Justin Moyer on Jan. 26, 2011 at 1:16 pm
in which the author discusses five books he'd read, if time permitted:
1. Bird Cloud: A Memoir, by Annie Proulx.
Remember when Brokeback Mountain didn't win Best Picture and Annie Proulx complained about it? I can't figure out if that was weak/sour-grapes-style move or "Did I mention I have the biggest brass cojones in this room"/awesome-style move. One one hand, I know I never complain when I write 64-page short stories that get adapted into well-received films that get nominated for Oscars they don't win. But, on the other hand, I think my cojones are made of damp sawdust.
http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/blogs/artsdesk/books/2011/01/26/five-books-id-read-56/ (http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/blogs/artsdesk/books/2011/01/26/five-books-id-read-56/)
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Five Books I’d Read
Posted by Justin Moyer on Jan. 26, 2011 at 1:16 pm
in which the author discusses five books he'd read, if time permitted:
1. Bird Cloud: A Memoir, by Annie Proulx.
Remember when Brokeback Mountain didn't win Best Picture and Annie Proulx complained about it? I can't figure out if that was weak/sour-grapes-style move or "Did I mention I have the biggest brass cojones in this room"/awesome-style move. One one hand, I know I never complain when I write 64-page short stories that get adapted into well-received films that get nominated for Oscars they don't win. But, on the other hand, I think my cojones are made of damp sawdust.
http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/blogs/artsdesk/books/2011/01/26/five-books-id-read-56/ (http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/blogs/artsdesk/books/2011/01/26/five-books-id-read-56/)
I think it was, "I have nothing to lose calling it like I see it, and unlike almost anyone else in the world, I'm gonna go ahead and do it."
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http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/blogs/artsdesk/books/2011/01/26/five-books-id-read-56/ (http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/blogs/artsdesk/books/2011/01/26/five-books-id-read-56/)
I think it was, "I have nothing to lose calling it like I see it, and unlike almost anyone else in the world, I'm gonna go ahead and do it."
(https://ultimatebrokebackforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi275.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fjj282%2FSanFranciscoJohn%2Ftu2.jpg&hash=37928b0e1a140c5a6bce0cd93b937b55cf63cce4)
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http://www.reelzchannel.com/top-10/88/top-10-most-romantic-movies-of-all-time
Jake Gyllenhaal and Heath Ledger star in a powerful story about two young cowboys
and their forbidden relationship in the grasslands of Wyoming.
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^^^^
grasslands?
:D :D :D
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Someone has posted a new translation of the s/s!
Brokeback Mountain
1
Ennis5 point less than to wake up. Outside of the wind shook the trailer, aluminum door and window frames in the vicinity of hissing shriek. Hanging clothes on a nail with a slight tremble. He got up, flex the look at his belly, slowly walked gas fireplace, coffee poured into the rest of the missing side of the enamel pot; blue flame wrap the plate. He twisted the faucet, the toilet to urinate; and then put Tshirt and jeans, as well as old boots, hard to stamp out stomping on the floor with so feet all squeezed into boots. the wind began to rumble and scratch along the lines of the trailer, he could hear the friction of the sand rustle. living in a trailer on the highway, is really very bad thing. the first day, the farmer put the key into the hands of Ennis, said: . daughter stay there for some time, until you find another job, but now, he is still happy to be dreamed of by infection with Jack.
Chen coffee has been boiled, and he is still holding the edge of the missing enamel pot. Ennis to pot the black liquid poured into faded old glass to cool slowly, his mind pondering just a dream. if not deliberately force yourself, so that memories may devour his day, mountain time review the past, when they owned the world, do not see any obstacles to the wind beating hh trailer, like mud from the waste down the car, as reduced, abandoned, and vanished temporarily silence hh
The two of them in the state of the two poor and grew up in a small farm. Jack in the Montana border on the Lightning Flat, Ennis near the Utah Sage. They were both high school dropouts, no future, hard work, poor rural boy, is inappropriate behavior, talk rude, used to live alone. Ennis also finished last in his parents a debt, leaving him $ 24 cash and a mortgage, two of the farm, by his brother and sister raised. In the age of 14, he applied for a hardship license, which allows him to sit for an hour drive from the farm to the high school. He did not get that bike classic cars heat sink, left a wiper, and a few bad tires. When the car when his hands had no money to repair. He was going to Reading High School, and has been almost synonymous with the resolution, but the truck broke down, he went straight into the farm.
more...
http://nicoleshomess.blogspot.com/2011/01/brokeback-mountain.html (http://nicoleshomess.blogspot.com/2011/01/brokeback-mountain.html)
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LOL....................Reading High School? Love it, John.
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Someone has posted a new translation of the s/s!
Jack: I know I'm here fuck! to the road, I desire to be able to fly over! ;
This could lead to a whole new symbolism thread. ;)
And, of course, now that we have this definitive translation it will difficult if not impossible to assert that he ever quit Ennis.
Anyone with "the desire to be able to fly over" simply never quits.
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http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/blogs/artsdesk/books/2011/01/26/five-books-id-read-56/ (http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/blogs/artsdesk/books/2011/01/26/five-books-id-read-56/)
I think it was, "I have nothing to lose calling it like I see it, and unlike almost anyone else in the world, I'm gonna go ahead and do it."
**Yup.**
kathy
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http://www.reelzchannel.com/top-10/88/top-10-most-romantic-movies-of-all-time
Jake Gyllenhaal and Heath Ledger star in a powerful story about two young cowboys
and their forbidden relationship in the grasslands of Wyoming.
**BBM is one of the most beautifully-acted, greatest love stories of all time. It is also a tragic one; one that doesn't let you go.
But - grasslands ??"
kathy
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**BBM is one of the most beautifully-acted, greatest love stories of all time. It is also a tragic one; one that doesn't let you go.
But - grasslands ??"
kathy
Yes, dear friends, grasslands.
http://www.nature.org/wherewework/northamerica/states/wyoming/howwework/art20606.html (http://www.nature.org/wherewework/northamerica/states/wyoming/howwework/art20606.html)
What, pray tell, does one think those poor sheep ate? ;)
Grass doesn't detract from the "sad" does it?
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**Oh, I know sheep eat grass, as prarie animals do, plus the fact all of those lonely ranches across the state of WY have plenty of grass.
I guess I have never seen the word "grasslands" in conjunction with BBM. Maybe I'm just too much in sync with that word "mountain".
kathy :)
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"meet me on the grassland"
LOL
Brokeback Grassland
this is almost as funny as the translator.
It loses a little poetic power, I guess.
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"meet me on the grassland"
LOL
Brokeback Grassland
this is almost as funny as the translator.
It loses a little poetic power, I guess.
Brokeback Grassland - where the only thing that blows is the weather... a heartbreaking tale of two wind-wranglers who never meet because the way the wind randomly blows and sucks does not permit stable relationships: gale force daily zephyrs do not allow for teepees or puptents - no way to arrange for anything two in tents.
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From the lecture "Brokeback Mountain: Primal Scenes on American Screens" by Linda Williams. Presented May, 2009 at Film Studies Center, University of Chicago.
Video
http://vimeo.com/6399429 (http://vimeo.com/6399429)
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Reel Culture
By Jean-Anne Sutherland, Ph.D.
Two lovers struggle against and with their passion for one another. Their lives are such that they can’t say it out loud – can’t claim one another in their day-to-day lives. Separated, their thoughts turn to one another. Together they know a passion, a connection and a love they’ve yet to find with another. Jack is ready to claim the relationship in his life but Ennis remains locked in fear. His angst concerning social condemnation ensnares him in denial. Jack, aware that he can’t push Ennis to a place he is unwilling to go is reduced to anger and tears. Tired of their separation, emotionally depleted by the hopelessness of their passion, Jack says to Ennis, “I wish I knew how to quit you.”
That line, “I wish I knew how to quit you,” has become a kind of iconic symbol of a gnashing, impossible and seemingly impossible love. The movie (Brokeback Mountain 2005) and the line struck a chord with audiences – tapping into feelings of loss, hopelessness and contradiction. Gay or straight, viewers of this film have the opportunity to come face to face with relationships dynamics, the integration of identities, feelings of loss, heartbreak, and a visual representation of the price of fear.
http://www.onlinetherapyinstituteblog.com/?m=201102 (http://www.onlinetherapyinstituteblog.com/?m=201102)
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Tonight ( Friday, 4th February 2011 ) will be the very first terrestrial airing of Brokeback Mountain, in South Africa. 10pm SA time, SABC 3. Since the vast majority of South Africans , including myself, do not have satelite ,cable or subscription channels, this will be the first exposure for many, to the film. The cinema release was not a long run, and unless you had seen it on DVD, tonight will be your chance. I am delighted to imagine the film reaching a wide audience.
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Should we expect a whole lot of distressed people joining the forum from South Africa? If it hasn't been seen before it seems like a good bet.
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That seems to happen when the movie first airs somewhere, like when it did on Bravo.
chuckyv will give them a warm welcome, I'm sure :)
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Tonight ( Friday, 4th February 2011 ) will be the very first terrestrial airing of Brokeback Mountain, in South Africa. 10pm SA time, SABC 3. Since the vast majority of South Africans , including myself, do not have satelite ,cable or subscription channels, this will be the first exposure for many, to the film. The cinema release was not a long run, and unless you had seen it on DVD, tonight will be your chance. I am delighted to imagine the film reaching a wide audience.
Let's hope that whatever the reaction is, it will lead to some healthy discussions on the media.
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That seems to happen when the movie first airs somewhere, like when it did on Bravo.
chuckyv will give them a warm welcome, I'm sure :)
**Oh, what a travesty that Bravo "airing" was/is!! Who are they anyway - jerks chopping up a beautiful, classic film? Made classic fools of themselves, that's all.**
kathy >:(
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**Hi to all --
I didn't know where to post this, so I thought this would be a good place.
A few nights ago, I watched BBM again. It hit me very hard, almost like the first time I saw it, with that shot to the heart. What a beautiful, classic film. So tragic too for both E&J.
I wept again; it never fails.**
kathy :'(
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Should we expect a whole lot of distressed people joining the forum from South Africa? If it hasn't been seen before it seems like a good bet.
Yes, maybe. I think this forum would be ideal, & I will point it out to anyone who needs to find out more about BBM, or just meet some like-minded people.
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Someone has posted a new translation of the s/s!
Brokeback Mountain
1
Ennis5 point less than to wake up. Outside of the wind shook the trailer, aluminum door and window frames in the vicinity of hissing shriek. Hanging clothes on a nail with a slight tremble. He got up, flex the look at his belly, slowly walked gas fireplace, coffee poured into the rest of the missing side of the enamel pot; blue flame wrap the plate. He twisted the faucet, the toilet to urinate; and then put Tshirt and jeans, as well as old boots, hard to stamp out stomping on the floor with so feet all squeezed into boots. the wind began to rumble and scratch along the lines of the trailer, he could hear the friction of the sand rustle. living in a trailer on the highway, is really very bad thing. the first day, the farmer put the key into the hands of Ennis, said: . daughter stay there for some time, until you find another job, but now, he is still happy to be dreamed of by infection with Jack.
Chen coffee has been boiled, and he is still holding the edge of the missing enamel pot. Ennis to pot the black liquid poured into faded old glass to cool slowly, his mind pondering just a dream. if not deliberately force yourself, so that memories may devour his day, mountain time review the past, when they owned the world, do not see any obstacles to the wind beating hh trailer, like mud from the waste down the car, as reduced, abandoned, and vanished temporarily silence hh
The two of them in the state of the two poor and grew up in a small farm. Jack in the Montana border on the Lightning Flat, Ennis near the Utah Sage. They were both high school dropouts, no future, hard work, poor rural boy, is inappropriate behavior, talk rude, used to live alone. Ennis also finished last in his parents a debt, leaving him $ 24 cash and a mortgage, two of the farm, by his brother and sister raised. In the age of 14, he applied for a hardship license, which allows him to sit for an hour drive from the farm to the high school. He did not get that bike classic cars heat sink, left a wiper, and a few bad tires. When the car when his hands had no money to repair. He was going to Reading High School, and has been almost synonymous with the resolution, but the truck broke down, he went straight into the farm.
more...
http://nicoleshomess.blogspot.com/2011/01/brokeback-mountain.html (http://nicoleshomess.blogspot.com/2011/01/brokeback-mountain.html)
I´m laughing so hard my stomach hurts!
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A question: Does anyone know of any pictures of Sage, Wy from when there were still people living there?
I´ve googled but have yet to find any.
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In TDS issue of Feb. 7, 2007, there was a little item on Sage, Wyoming with photos and apparently there is very little there. Go to Forum Footnotes of that date: http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=19846.0
I actually Googled images of Sage, WY and this forum had the best results.
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In TDS issue of Feb. 7, 2007, there was a little item on Sage, Wyoming with photos and apparently there is very little there. Go to Forum Footnotes of that date: http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=19846.0
I actually Googled images of Sage, WY and this forum had the best results.
I visited Sage last year and the place have surely been abandoned for years. I took plenty of photos and it would be nice to compare them with older ones showing people actually living there. But there doesn´t seem to be and old pics of Sage to be found (on-line anyway) unfortunately. Or not that I can find anyway.
I found a little info now on Sage´s past. There has been a mine in the area and apparently there is a cemetery just outside of Sage that I completely missed. Sage used to be a railroad station.
http://www.cokevillehs.org/sage.html
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Student Loses 'Brokeback Mountain' Sex Scene Case
A teacher at a Chicago school did not act outrageously in screening part of the movie “Brokeback Mountain” — including gay sex scenes — to a class of seventh- and eighth-graders, a jury has found in rejecting an unusual emotional injury lawsuit.
Jessica Turner, a 12-year-old seventh-grader at the time, and her grandparents claimed she suffered “severe emotional distress” as a result of seeing the R-rated Oscar winner at Ashburn Community Elementary School. They sued the substitute teacher, Marnetta Buford, and the Chicago Board of Education in May 2007 for at least $500,000 in damages.
more...
http://www.onpointnews.com/NEWS/Student-Loses-Brokeback-Mountain-Sex-Scene-Case.html (http://www.onpointnews.com/NEWS/Student-Loses-Brokeback-Mountain-Sex-Scene-Case.html)
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^^^^I still have my conspiracy theory about Marnetta Buford and why she showed the film. I don't think it should have been shown in 7th/8th grade classrooms.
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Brokeback Mountain-Austin, TX - Casting ID # 914217
Currently casting two males for a graduate UT Film Scene Directing Exercise. The scene is a selection from the Ang Lee film 'Brokeback Mountain.'
A story about a forbidden and secretive relationship between two cowboys.
Jack and Ennis once had a summer romance on Brokeback Mountain. Years later, they reconnect to access a possible future together.
Dates:
2-3 Rehearsals TBA
Wednesday Feb. 23, 1 hour between 6-10pm - final rehearsal
Shoot: Saturday 2/26 or Sunday 2/27
http://www.exploretalent.com/auditions/feature-film-non-sag-brokeback-mountain-austin-tx-austin-tx-73301_914217 (http://www.exploretalent.com/auditions/feature-film-non-sag-brokeback-mountain-austin-tx-austin-tx-73301_914217)
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Yay! I hope any recording is made available to the public.
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^^^^I still have my conspiracy theory about Marnetta Buford and why she showed the film. I don't think it should have been shown in 7th/8th grade classrooms.
As someone who works in the field of school administration on a national level, I agree with your conspiracy theory!
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^^^^I still have my conspiracy theory about Marnetta Buford and why she showed the film. I don't think it should have been shown in 7th/8th grade classrooms.
**Ditto.
And - what the heck does a 7th grader suffering, as the grandparents say, "severe"emotional distess" mean any way? I smell a rat and have always smelled one from the beginning.**
kathy >:(
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^^^^I still have my conspiracy theory about Marnetta Buford and why she showed the film. I don't think it should have been shown in 7th/8th grade classrooms.
And what is your theory, John?
I think showing it or not showing it in a classroom depends a lot on the context.
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Brokeback Mountain-Austin, TX - Casting ID # 914217
Currently casting two males for a graduate UT Film Scene Directing Exercise. The scene is a selection from the Ang Lee film 'Brokeback Mountain.'
A story about a forbidden and secretive relationship between two cowboys.
Jack and Ennis once had a summer romance on Brokeback Mountain. Years later, they reconnect to access a possible future together.
Dates:
2-3 Rehearsals TBA
Wednesday Feb. 23, 1 hour between 6-10pm - final rehearsal
Shoot: Saturday 2/26 or Sunday 2/27
http://www.exploretalent.com/auditions/feature-film-non-sag-brokeback-mountain-austin-tx-austin-tx-73301_914217 (http://www.exploretalent.com/auditions/feature-film-non-sag-brokeback-mountain-austin-tx-austin-tx-73301_914217)
I wonder what scene?
My guess is the lake scene.
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Sounds more like the reunion scene.
As for the conspiracy theory regarding the showing the film in math class, are people suspecting that the parents knew the substitute teacher and conspired to have her show it to the class their daughter was in, claim their kid was damaged and then split the damages with the teacher when they won?
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That doesn't make sense. Making the teacher pay, and then split the money with her?
Oh, unless it's the school that pays, of course.
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I think it is important to note that this was not a teacher. It was a sub. There's a big difference.
I am thinking that the sub had her own anti-gay agenda.
This is a gross oversimplification, but:
In the US public school system, teachers go through rigorous training and are made aware of the school and districts' rules several times during the school year. In most cases, they are also under contract and are unionized to ensure their pay increases and retirement.
Any teacher in the US, post NCLB, would be a fool to risk their position.
A sub works on call for about $50/day with no benefits and no chance for advancement- without a teaching degree and several other accomplishments. They do not need any training whatsoever. Anyone can walk off the street and become a sub, if they pass a criminal background check.
The sub, in this case, had nothing to lose. They had nothing to gain, except to spread homophobia. I wonder if a connection has been investigated between the sub and an anti-gay organization?
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I've found the teacher's Myspace http://www.myspace.com/thruthestorm (http://www.myspace.com/thruthestorm) and FB pages. She's quite vocal about being a Christian, but I haven't seen anything disturbing. She does list "Will and Grace" as a favorite tv show.
She's also listed on Linkedin as "Owner" for Express Covenant Coach, a Christian bus service in Chicago located in the same neighborhood as the school. http://eccbus.com/
other than that, not much info online.
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Fox News FWIW
Judge Tosses Suit After Substitute Shows "Brokeback Mountain" to Grade-School Class
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kb2gH5PQEG0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kb2gH5PQEG0)
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Brokie poll: I'd like your thoughts on these videos:
"Meet Me On The Mountain" Part 1
http://vimeo.com/19237444 (http://vimeo.com/19237444)
..."Meet Me On The Mountain" Part 2
http://vimeo.com/19265483 (http://vimeo.com/19265483)
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I don't like them. Who is the annoying guy in the white shirt? That kind of person pisses me of royally.
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Fast or slow, I couldn't tell what direction these two videos were going!
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http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/valentines-day/what-women-want-gay-male-romance-novels/article1902774/
What women want: Gay male romance novels
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Great link, lislis! ...and something the slashers here are fortunate to be a part of. At least three DCF members have novels being released this month alone.
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From 2006: The Eiteljorg Museum of American Indians and Western Art in Indianapolis hosted a discussion of the film, Brokeback Mountain. The panel consisted of members from film festival, scholars and an art critic. The audience was also given a chance to offer their own thoughts on the movie and the discussion.
http://www.eiteljorg.org/ejm_MP3/brokeback_mountain1.mp3 (http://www.eiteljorg.org/ejm_MP3/brokeback_mountain1.mp3)
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The Social Impact of "Brokeback Mountain:" A Reception Study
Pilar Aurelia Bermudez
University of Miami
A THESIS
Submitted to the Faculty
of the University of Miami
in partial fulfillment of the requirements of
the degree of Masters of Arts
http://scholarlyrepository.miami.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1124&context=oa_theses (http://scholarlyrepository.miami.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1124&context=oa_theses)
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Downloaded to read later! Thanks John!
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The social impact of this forum seems not to have occurred to her....
The Social Impact of "Brokeback Mountain:" A Reception Study
Pilar Aurelia Bermudez
University of Miami
A THESIS
Submitted to the Faculty
of the University of Miami
in partial fulfillment of the requirements of
the degree of Masters of Arts
http://scholarlyrepository.miami.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1124&context=oa_theses (http://scholarlyrepository.miami.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1124&context=oa_theses)
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The social impact of this forum seems not to have occurred to her....
Basic math didn't occur to her either:
------------------------------------------------
1982’s Making Love was one of the first films to be
released and have two men as the romantic leads in an illicit affair. For the screenwriter
Barry Sandler, the experience inside the movie theater was tense and unpleasant. When
the stars of the movie, Harry Hamlin and Michael Ontkean, were seen getting too close
for comfort on screen, what was supposed to be a groundbreaking movie about two men
falling in love became a film in which people reacted with “discomfort, then nervousness,
and then something akin to panic.” It was even worse when they kissed on screen:
When the two actors kissed, much of the audience burst
into gates of derisive laughter or shrieks of anger and
disgust. “People were actually storming up the aisles to get
out,” Sandler recalls. “It was like there was a bomb in the
theater. People just didn’t want to deal with two men
having sex.”
Because of this reaction back in 1982, the effort to put any type of queer romance in
mainstream film was ceased. Thankfully, the reaction to Brokeback Mountain in 2005, 13
years after Making Love, was much different.
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It is nice to see a dissertation I don't have to proof read!
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Between The Sheets #37 - Diana Ossana - Brokeback Mountain
HOTTALKLA.COM Radio
Terri, Gaye Ann and Martha interview Academy Award winning writer/producer Diana Ossana -- the woman who brought you BROKEBACK MOUNTAIN.
http://www.hottalkla.com/htla/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&layout=blog&id=63&Itemid=228 (http://www.hottalkla.com/htla/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&layout=blog&id=63&Itemid=228)
Diana starts talking about Brokeback 9 minutes into the show. It's an hour show and the Brokeback part is about 20 minutes.
They play 'Wings' at the end of the show.
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Contemporary Queer Cinemas, University of Pittsburgh
a Public Humanities blog about queer cinemas, imaging technologies, and Pittsburgh's role in it all
Brokeback Mountain, Race, & Space
How is race produced in relation to sexuality in Brokeback Mountain? How is it related to the representation of space? How does cinematography play a role in how these three concepts (race, sexuality, and space) are constructed in the film? Choose 1-2 specific scenes to analyze.
Remember to link to at least 1 visual text in your response (make sure to correctly attribute the image, citing who made it and where you found it).
http://pittqueercinema.wordpress.com/2011/01/page/2/
http://pittqueercinema.wordpress.com/2011/01/
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In the interview from Between the Sheets, Diana speaks of an actor who would have had the role of Ennis had he not backed out towards the end of 2003. Who might that have been? How did he happen to have priority over their choice which was Heath?
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In the interview from Between the Sheets, Diana speaks of an actor who would have had the role of Ennis had he not backed out towards the end of 2003. Who might that have been? How did he happen to have priority over their choice which was Heath?
She has mentioned the anonymous actor before, but she has never given a name. I doubt that she'll ever tell.
Possibly coward and idjit Mark Wahlberg because he loves to tell about how his Catholic priest talked advised him not to take the role.
In her Advocate interview she said:
I see the fear of countless Hollywood actors who wouldn’t take the parts.
It is our strong belief that the actors who read our screenplay and ultimately did not take the parts were dissuaded by their various representatives, in the mistaken belief that it would be "career suicide" to take on the roles. As we’ve said before, Heath Ledger actively pursued his role. Even after Heath and Jake committed to their roles, rumors floated around Hollywood, triggered by noncreative types, that they were committing "career suicide," which is eye-rolling ridiculous.
I see the fear of a still-homophobic corporate press, which grabs onto the stars’ sexuality instead of the script’s quality. A press that gives these stars an outlet to gauge their "comfort level" with playing these roles. A press that throws around words like bravery and courage when referring to pampered stars playing well-scripted roles.
http://www.advocate.com/article.aspx?id=43527 (http://www.advocate.com/article.aspx?id=43527)
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Who might that have been? How did he happen to have priority over their choice which was Heath?
At the time, Heath was not as well known and the other producers wanted a well known actor.
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She has mentioned the anonymous actor before, but she has never given a name. I doubt that she'll ever tell.
Possibly coward and idjit Mark Wahlberg because he loves to tell about how his Catholic priest talked advised him not to take the role.
If my memory is correct:
She mentioned this at the Autry and a questioner asked her who it was. She said two things about
that. It was "not" Mark Wahlberg she specifically said and she also said she wouldn't say who it was
right then; that maybe she'd mention it the book, referring to her journal that she'd kept while making
the film that many want her to publish.
I know that many of us thought it might be Mark Wahlberg and in the past, at the ampas Q&A for example,
she mentioned the actor in question without naming him, but this is the first instance I had heard a questioner
ask her outright who it was and I believe he phrased it with the "was it Mark Wahlberg" line, but she did say it
was not him she was referring to. I remember that because it's something I'd like to know and that eliminated
a possibility. It's amusing, in a way, that this actor's name is in the closet, presumably to cover up his reluctance
(should I say homophobia?) related to playing the part, but isn't that what the film's about? That this isn't the
right thing to do. In a way, it makes it seem more important than it really is. Actors always have fears or other
trepidations about playing a lot of roles and discuss it, but for some reason, this question remains open, for
whatever reason.
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If my memory is correct:
Your memory is correct!
I do remember her talking about coward and idjit Mark Wahlberg and how he is such a hypocrite.
I forgot that she said it wasn't him until you reminded me. Next time I'm bringing a good video camera.
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Sigh. I wish I'd had one there.
I wonder which priest advised him to star in Boogie Nights.
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Sigh. I wish I'd had one there.
I wonder which priest advised him to star in Boogie Nights.
maybe the same one?
'Father Flavin pushes Mark to honor his religious roots,' said the source. 'Even though Mark was offered one of the leads in Brokeback Mountain, he passed because of the gay subject matter, which clashes with Catholic doctrine.'"
Of course, playing a coke and meth-addicted hustler with a 10-inch penis in Boogie Nights was fine.
http://www.datalounge.com/cgi-bin/iowa/ajax.html?t=9181445#page:showThread,9181445 (http://www.datalounge.com/cgi-bin/iowa/ajax.html?t=9181445#page:showThread,9181445)
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Darling daughter Viva Katherine Wainwright Cohen was born on February 2, 2011 in Los Angeles, California to proud parents Lorca Cohen, Rufus Wainwright and Deputy Dad Jorn Weisbrodt. The little angel is evidently healthy, presumably happy and certainly very very beautiful.
Daddy #1 would like to offer everyone a digital cigar and welcome the little lady in with a French phrase from his favorite folk song, A La Claire Fontaine : "Il y a longtemps que je t'aime, jamais je ne t'oublierai."
http://www.rufuswainwright.com/ (http://www.rufuswainwright.com/)
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.... It's amusing, in a way, that this actor's name is in the closet, presumably to cover up his reluctance
(should I say homophobia?) related to playing the part, but isn't that what the film's about? ....
Perhaps it is more reverse homophobia... maybe the guy is gay and feared being identified with the role. Does that rule out Walhberg?
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That's what's called "internalized homophobia" that some gay men, like Ennis, express.
Diana ruled out Mark Wahlberg, so he's out.
I do know that Mark Wahlberg danced at a gay club in Hollywood, The Arena,
during his Funky Bunch years, and had no trouble doing his trademark "pulling
down his pants" dances for the boys.
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**I've thought for yrs. how Wahlberg >:( is one of the most conceited, untalented, know-nothing jerks in the world. The way he went on ad infinitum regarding his "priest" warning him against BBM made me so sick. Didn't stop you from a porn role, though, did he? Ha! What a hypocrite.
Well, wahlberg, who's laughing now? Not you. You have to take your own money and make your productions for pay TV (w/Scorcese) because you're nothing but a total jackass in every way.
Thank the movie gods Heath and Jake are the leads in BBM; noone could ever be great as that.**
kathy
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**I've thought for yrs. how Wahlberg >:( is one of the most conceited, untalented, know-nothing jerks in the world. The way he went on ad infinitum regarding his "priest" warning him against BBM made me so sick. Didn't stop you from a porn role, though, did he? Ha! What a hypocrite.
Well, wahlberg, who's laughing now? Not you. You have to take your own money and make your productions for pay TV (w/Scorcese) because you're nothing but a total jackass in every way.
Thank the movie gods Heath and Jake are the leads in BBM; noone could ever be great as that.**
kathy
(https://ultimatebrokebackforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi275.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fjj282%2FSanFranciscoJohn%2Ftu2.jpg&hash=37928b0e1a140c5a6bce0cd93b937b55cf63cce4)
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:) :)
kathy
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Your memory is correct!
I do remember her talking about coward and idjit Mark Wahlberg and how he is such a hypocrite.
I forgot that she said it wasn't him until you reminded me. Next time I'm bringing a good video camera.
Honestly, I´m more surprised than anything at the fact that they wanted him to star in Brokeback Mountain, igven the quality of the script.
I mean, since when is Mark Wahlberg a good actor?
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**Agree entirely.**
kathy
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Coward and idjit Mark Wahlberg was actually considered for the role of Jack, not Ennis.
Wahlberg was also considered for a role in the film Brokeback Mountain. It was originally intended to star him and Joaquin Phoenix, but Wahlberg was uncomfortable with the film's sex scenes and his role ultimately went to Jake Gyllenhaal.
Wahlberg dated actress Reese Witherspoon during and after the making of their 1996 film Fear.
:o
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coward and Idjit Mark_Wahlberg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Wahlberg)
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(https://ultimatebrokebackforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi275.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fjj282%2FSanFranciscoJohn%2FWyomingDOT.jpg&hash=f2b7feccf9f62aa131c11e66813a564427c0b03b)
Grow Wyoming's competitive position as a highly demanded location ..
http://www.wyomingofficeoftourism.gov/industry/pdf/Whitepaper%28Final%29.pdf (http://www.wyomingofficeoftourism.gov/industry/pdf/Whitepaper%28Final%29.pdf)
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Regarding deleted scenes. The cut sequence with a bare chested Jack on the pole bridge...does anyone know if it was supposed to show Jack before or after FNIT.
Instinctively I would think it was an after FNIT shot because there is a certain...satisfied sensuality feel to it.
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**I believe the scene was supposed to be before anything happened between the boys. I can't remember if I read this on the forum(s), (something AL or JS may have said), or in "On Brokeback Mountain", but the scene was cut because TPTB did not want to have Ennis looking "longingly" and/or "lovingly" at Jack.
Another deleted scene!**
kathy
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'Out in America' portrays everyday ways
Horse trainer Mike Hartman isn't all that comfortable being interviewed -- "I think I rattled on that day and probably didn't have a whole lot to say that was beneficial" -- but he was still happy to answer questions and be included in the documentary "Out in America."
The one-hour film, directed, written and produced by Andrew Goldberg, seeks to paint a portrait of lesbian, gay and transgender Americans in their everyday lives.
Hartman, who lives in Woodburn and works with horses on a farm in Eagle Creek, has been the face of rural gay America before. When "Brokeback Mountain" was up for an Oscar, he was interviewed for an article titled "The Real Gay Cowboy" in a publication whose name he can't recall.
"I really didn't understand the big deal," Hartman said, "and to be honest with you, I still don't."
Five years after the release of "Brokeback Mountain" and following such gay civil rights strides as the repeal of "don't ask, don't tell," the notion of a rough-and-tumble, gay horseman may indeed be less of a big deal.
more...
http://www.oregonlive.com/movies/index.ssf/2011/02/out_in_america_portrays_everyd.html (http://www.oregonlive.com/movies/index.ssf/2011/02/out_in_america_portrays_everyd.html)
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http://www.altfg.com/blog/film-reviews/brokeback-mountain-ang-lee/
Yet, except for a few touching moments in Brokeback Mountain's second half, I was unable to become fully involved in the film chiefly because I felt its central relationship — between a Wyoming ranch hand and a second-rate rodeo cowboy — remained stubbornly underdeveloped.
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The above review has a disarming amount of honesty and insight but one wonders how someone could not notice the chemistry between the two men. Another case of which movie did you see perhaps?
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Yet, except for a few touching moments in Brokeback Mountain's second half, I was unable to become fully involved in the film chiefly because I felt its central relationship — between a Wyoming ranch hand and a second-rate rodeo cowboy — remained stubbornly underdeveloped.
*sits down, waits patiently for the post she just knows will come...* ::) :D
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Found this college essay on the web.
The two main characters Jack Twist and Ennis Del Mar been two men are forbidden by the society to be in a relationship, but their passion was hopelessly too powerful for either of them to quit.
The movie is not judgemental, it never tries to say whether or not their relationship is right or wrong, it just shows their passion. And the movie never step back to give a larger picture or to give a massage out of the story. The whole plot runs in close ups. It's all about these two men and their love, not even their wives are given a notable space.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/49328605/Brokeback-Mountain (http://www.scribd.com/doc/49328605/Brokeback-Mountain)
I can handle spelling/grammar errors online, but don't people proofread their work before handing it in anymore??
TV dinner by the pool
I'm so glad I finished school
Life is such a ball
-Frank Zappa
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Coward and idjit Mark Wahlberg was actually considered for the role of Jack, not Ennis.
:o
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coward and Idjit Mark_Wahlberg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Wahlberg)
I take it you don't entirely adore the above mentioned person, John? ::) ::)
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I take it you don't entirely adore the above mentioned person, John? ::) ::)
You mean Coward and Idjit Mark Wahlberg?
You bet!
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You mean Coward and Idjit Mark Wahlberg?
You bet!
Somehow I just sensed that. I'm very sensitive that way! :D ;D
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http://www.altfg.com/blog/film-reviews/brokeback-mountain-ang-lee/
Yet, except for a few touching moments in Brokeback Mountain's second half, I was unable to become fully involved in the film chiefly because I felt its central relationship — between a Wyoming ranch hand and a second-rate rodeo cowboy — remained stubbornly underdeveloped.
**WHAT??? "Except for a few moments.......stubborly underdeveloped" .... etc., etc., etc."?
This post is just plain ridiculous. I don't think this one even saw BBM. I'd better stop now - I'm like a bull seeing red.**
kathy >:( ???
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Found this college essay on the web.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/49328605/Brokeback-Mountain (http://www.scribd.com/doc/49328605/Brokeback-Mountain)
I can handle spelling/grammar errors online, but don't people proofread their work before handing it in anymore??
TV dinner by the pool
I'm so glad I finished school
Life is such a ball
-Frank Zappa
**So-called "college" students can't even read or write anymore, let alone check and/or proofread. Perfect example of the educational system in the U.S.**
kathy
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In college I wrote my essays out by hand and then I would type them after checking spelling and grammar. I always kept a dictionary and thesaurus close by.
My first few essays were written on my grandfather's old typewriter. This was the only typewriter we had at the time.
(https://ultimatebrokebackforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi275.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fjj282%2FSanFranciscoJohn%2Funderwood5.jpg&hash=2c7c4253d91edb038947ea37345dfa28d131701d)
This isn't the exact one, but it was an Underwood and very similar. He used this back in the depression to write poetry, some of which was published in the New Yorker.
I also kept a fresh supply of white-out nearby :)
After the first few essays, my English Comp. teacher turned me on to the fact that electric typewriters were available for students to use on campus.
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**WHAT??? "Except for a few moments.......stubborly underdeveloped" .... etc., etc., etc."?
This post is just plain ridiculous. I don't think this one even saw BBM. I'd better stop now - I'm like a bull seeing red.**
kathy >:( ???
I think he did see the film. This isn't the first time he's written about it:
-----------------------------------------------------------------
BROKEBACK MOUNTAIN: Great To Be Nominated
Andre Soares | Jul 28, 2008
-----------------------------------------------------------------
A major anti-Oscar outcry followed the announcement that Paul Haggis' ludicrous melodrama Crash took best picture honors, for Brokeback Mountain had won nearly every critics' and industry awards in the United States. The Academy was accused of being anti-gay, anti-cowboy, anti-mountain, etc. etc. Never mind the fact that Brokeback Mountain won Oscars for best director and best adapted screenplay (Larry McMurtry, Ossana), in addition to a statuette for Santaolalla's original score.
That said, anti-gay Academy members may have tipped the balance. I don't believe anyone would doubt that it was a very tight Best Picture race. But then again, it could just be that many Academy members felt more inclined to vote for a film about racism set in their hometown of Los Angeles, where more than a decade earlier race riots had engulfed whole sections of the city.
Either way, the Oscar, as so often in the past, failed to embrace a film that was even remotely daring. Brokeback Mountain, which would have been the first best picture winner chronicling a gay relationship, was banned in Muslim countries, in China, and other markets (in addition to a theater complex in Utah), and created a furor among religious right-wingers who were at the time pushing for anti-gay marriage laws across the US. Instead of endorsing a culturally challenging — and widely praised — effort, the majority of Oscar voters opted for the tried and phony.
http://www.altfg.com/blog/gay-and-lesbian/brokeback-mountain-great-to-be-nominated/ (http://www.altfg.com/blog/gay-and-lesbian/brokeback-mountain-great-to-be-nominated/)
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Anyways, it seems like it took forever to type up an acceptable essay on that old typewriter.
Speaking of taking forever, it appears that the Brokeback Mountain Opera has been pushed back a year.
I checked on Wuorinen's website the other day and it is now scheduled for Spring 2014 instead of 2013.
Other than that I haven't been able to find out anything about it other than the stuff that was published in 2008.
It only took Mozart about 3 weeks to write La Clemenza di Tito .
Rossini spent only thirteen days writing "Barbiere di Siviglia."
Verdi churned out an opera each year.
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new blog on tumblr
Blog created by Karol and Carly
Welcome to an Italo-American blog about the amazing film Brokeback Mountain.
http://nobodysbusinessbutours.tumblr.com/ (http://nobodysbusinessbutours.tumblr.com/)
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new blog on tumblr
Blog created by Karol and Carly
Welcome to an Italo-American blog about the amazing film Brokeback Mountain.
http://nobodysbusinessbutours.tumblr.com/ (http://nobodysbusinessbutours.tumblr.com/)
A new Brokeback forum five years later. That's pretty amazing. One of the founders is a university student so maybe that one is for Brokies who are not "a hundred years old" – as I once saw the members of DCF described. ::) :D
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Anyways, it seems like it took forever to type up an acceptable essay on that old typewriter.
...........It only took Mozart about 3 weeks to write La Clemenza di Tito .
Rossini spent only thirteen days writing "Barbiere di Siviglia."
Verdi churned out an opera each year.
I wonder whether there will be any difference between speedwriting the tunes of Mozart and Verdi etc compared with the banal musical treading of water of a Glass or Adams. I for one am more than happy with what we have with the film score. An opera sounds as appealing to me as a private screening of Crash. ::) :D Good luck to whoever tackles the job.
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new blog on tumblr
Blog created by Karol and Carly
Welcome to an Italo-American blog about the amazing film Brokeback Mountain.
http://nobodysbusinessbutours.tumblr.com/ (http://nobodysbusinessbutours.tumblr.com/)
Thats actually very interesting!
Did they just see the movie recently? Or has it taken them this long to react to BBM by setting up a blog?
Have they been on one of the forums earlier?
I guess some of the answers are in that blog, but from what I saw in my little peek in, it seems complicated to navigate, and I'm not that interested! :D
Besides I haven't got the time for yet another BBM related website... ::) ::)
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Found this college essay on the web.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/49328605/Brokeback-Mountain (http://www.scribd.com/doc/49328605/Brokeback-Mountain)
I can handle spelling/grammar errors online, but don't people proofread their work before handing it in anymore??
TV dinner by the pool
I'm so glad I finished school
Life is such a ball
-Frank Zappa
That is the sort of essay my Dyslexic students bring in for me to proof read all the time.
He / she should get a teacher to check their work.
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A new Brokeback forum five years later. That's pretty amazing. One of the founders is a university student so maybe that one is for Brokies who are not "a hundred years old" – as I once saw the members of DCF described. ::) :D
As if all university students are under 25.
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**So-called "college" students can't even read or write anymore, let alone check and/or proofread. Perfect example of the educational system in the U.S.**
kathy
But I must say I was intrigued by the concept of "getting a massage out of the story". >:D
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The medium is the massage.
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Nicholas Snow's Notes From The World: "Return to Brokeback Mountain"
* Posted by Nicholas Snow on August 12, 2010
I don’t believe any of us covering the red carpet arrivals for the Brokeback Mountain premiere in Hollywood, November 11, 2005, had a clue that we would truly be a part of history, helping launch a movie that would transform the lives of countless people around the world because of its profound capturing of the cost of the closet. I had not yet seen the movie that I now hold as one of the most important ever made, conveying the deep, undeniable humanity of authentic love, as well as the justifications and costs of locking that love in the dark.
full article here:
http://notesfromhollywood.com/profiles/blogs/nicholas-snows-notes-from-the (http://notesfromhollywood.com/profiles/blogs/nicholas-snows-notes-from-the)
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The medium is the massage.
futures foretold as muscles are unknottted?
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UCLA Theater, Film & TV Online - Courses
(https://ultimatebrokebackforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi275.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fjj282%2FSanFranciscoJohn%2FUCLABrokeback.jpg&hash=9df1128d0d7e92081d71510dd58be3c75f20429c)
http://online.tft.ucla.edu/courses/ (http://online.tft.ucla.edu/courses/)
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**What a wonderful course - and photo. This is great.**
kathy
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Exhausted From Holding It In
Gabrielle Idlet
I had been working in a drop-in center for homeless teenagers for a month when I saw “Brokeback Mountain.”
The center was housed in a dingy 23-story building on 8th Avenue in Manhattan, a few long blocks from Times Square. I worked the front desk, which meant I pressed the button to unlock the doors when kids showed up, and I had them sign in and wait for their counselors. I didn’t do the heavy lifting. I didn’t talk to them in private offices about what they had gone through that day or what they would be facing that night. But I did get their shockwaves of emotion as they burst in. These clients generally knew much more than I did, and they were impatient with my efforts to help. I probably seemed weak or street dumb or privileged.
At the end of each day we would meet in a room around a long table covered in chipped paint. We strategized about getting shoes for kids with fungal infections on their feet because the police kept making them walk rather than rest on benches. We talked about one or another transgender girl who had not confessed her HIV status to her boyfriend or a boy who had been beaten after an act of sex work (that work being one of only a few options for survival). All had run away from torturous homes or been “thrown away” because they were gay or rebellious.
One rainy Friday I was entrusted with the task of handing out donated ponchos to kids as they left the center, which would open again on Monday. The ponchos were all too small, though. I had to use scissors to open the seams so the nylon would fit. I felt the clients’ skin as I snipped the fabric along their chins. I left work, walked down to the multiplex at 34th Street and bought a ticket for “Brokeback Mountain.” I was numb until the scene where the taciturn Heath Ledger enters Jake Gyllenhaal’s tent and collapses on Gyllenhaal’s chest, the weight of all his life’s pain, the exhaustion of holding it in, releasing. I started crying then and didn’t stop until long after I was home.
What we hold in us — what histories and present-day stories these kids shouldered in the streets — a spare story can bring everything out of you. It steps back, and we lean forward with our emotions. This stark piece by Blake Clark is a response to the following prompt:
Write about a loss and emphasize setting.
more...
http://www.freeweekly.com/2011/03/03/exhausted-from-holding-it-in/ (http://www.freeweekly.com/2011/03/03/exhausted-from-holding-it-in/)
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(https://ultimatebrokebackforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi275.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fjj282%2FSanFranciscoJohn%2FHarvard.jpg&hash=6d846fe3807bcfc7a8628138874a1466142d7479)
Art and the Emotional Bond Rebecca Summerhays
TTh 12, TTh 1
How do you know what another person feels? Why would you want to know? Are there social or political advantages to the ability to relate emotionally to others? This class explores these central questions through select pieces of fiction, visual art, film, and criticism that scrutinize how and why we attempt to connect emotionally. In our first unit, we will read short pieces of fiction from writers including George Eliot, Thomas Hardy and James Joyce. In these works—each obsessed with how individuals share feelings—do emotional connections arise from the mind, the body’s instincts and impulses, or another source altogether? In our second unit, we will consider how—and for what purpose—such diverse theorists as Adam Smith, Leo Tolstoy, Susan Sontag, and James Elkins use the language of feeling to theorize art as a primarily emotional experience. We will test these accounts of art against a pool of evidence that we find in Harvard’s Sackler Art Museum. How do the pieces that we find in the museum challenge or extend Tolstoy’s claim, for example, that art is an emotional “contagion” that binds artists and viewers? Or complicate Sontag’s call for an “erotics” rather than a “hermeneutics” of art? In our final unit, we turn to the feelings that link (or fail to link) families and communities as we compare films by Academy Award-winning director Ang Lee. Why do such prominent and controversial films as Sense and Sensibility, The Ice Storm, Brokeback Mountain, and even Hulk, find particular emotions, such as sensibility and desire, so threatening?
http://writingprogram.fas.harvard.edu/icb/icb.do?keyword=k24101&pageid=icb.page398252 (http://writingprogram.fas.harvard.edu/icb/icb.do?keyword=k24101&pageid=icb.page398252)
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If you had to describe the movie in one word, would it be "masterpiece"?
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If you had to describe the movie in one word, would it be "masterpiece"?
An interesting question.
Kenneth Clark believes that a “masterpiece” is a “confluence of memories and emotions forming a single idea”. He also goes on to add that a masterpiece “can be the sum total of all the skill of an artist in one work”.
If one accepts these parameters then the film is probably a “masterwork”, i.e. the work of a master.
The short story, on the other hand, might easily and rightfully be considered Proulx’s masterpiece….at least in the short-story genre
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A masterpiece is also described as the work of someone who has mastered the skills of an artform to the extent that multiple advanced skills are displayed in one piece. A masterpiece formerly was this piece reviewed, critiqued and approved (or passed) by the artist's peers. I think one of the elements that caused the demise of this definition was the fact that some artists are peerless, like Annie Proulx, Ang Lee, and Heath Ledger.
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http://culturemap.com/newsdetail/03-03-11-houston-gay-cowboy-heritage-long-before-brokeback-bravos-river-bottom-always-stood-tall/
Decades before Brokeback Mountain...
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Artifacts of Love and Violence:
From Riverton to San Francisco
by Gregory Hinton
(https://ultimatebrokebackforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi275.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fjj282%2FSanFranciscoJohn%2FHM.jpg&hash=71aede3d93f929ed3c61386dcdef59ed76367ae9)
(https://ultimatebrokebackforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi275.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fjj282%2FSanFranciscoJohn%2FHM5.jpg&hash=35f304cc13c753e41f937413de1c8c616790f4e1)
Left: Original poster for Brokeback Mountain (2005), starring Jake Gyllenhall, Heath Ledger, Michelle Williams, and Anne Hathaway. The film received eight Oscar nominations and won three, for Best Director (Ang Lee), Best Original
Screenplay (Larry McMurtry and Diana Ossana), and Best Original Score (Gustavo Santaolalla). Many felt it should
also have won Best Picture over Crash. Courtesy Focus Features
Right: Original poster for Milk (2008), starring Sean Penn, Josh Brolin, and Emile Hirsch. The film was nominated for
eight Oscars and won two, for Best Actor (Sean Penn) and Best Original Screenplay (Dustin Lance Black). Courtesy
Focus Features
--------------------------------------------------------------------
When Jacqueline Kennedy escorted the body of her husband, President John F. Kennedy, slain by the assassin’s bullet of Lee Harvey Oswald, back to Washington, D.C., she refused to change out of the pink suit she was wearing as she rode next to him in the open motorcade through downtown Dallas. It was drenched with his blood. On Air Force One she told Lady Bird Johnson, “I want them to see what they did to Jack.”
I don’t know who the “them” was that she was referring to—the killers? his political enemies? the American people? She certainly must have known that children, watching the evening news with their families, would see her. Her own children, too, would eventually see this image. I think that even in her own profound grief, she was astute enough to seize the moment because she had a lesson to teach: This is what violence looks like.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
The Brokeback shirts and Harvey Milk’s suit provide two excellent examples of the associated conundrum the responsible curator faces when posed with the dilemma of telling a painful historical truth, physical or emotional, while tastefully putting on display the controversial artifacts of love and violence. I asked photographer Dan Nicoletta his opinion about putting Harvey Milk’s suit on public display. He was very careful with his words. “Like the West, I guess Harvey belongs to everybody now.”
In an earlier exhibition called St. Harvey, Harvey’s suit was mounted on a mannequin, prompting charges of ghoulishness. The GLBT Historical Society, in its current display, attempted to mollify critics by placing the suit in recline, under a glass case. But with the bullet holes and bloodstains still plainly evident, it is still hypnotically graphic, and hard to imagine that detractors might be appeased. I even apologized to visitors while photographing it. The suit horrifies. Horrifies.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The full article as published in the Winter 2011 edition of 'Convergence', a publication of the Autry National Center is available here:
http://bbmfoundation.org/images/Artifacts%20of%20Love%20and%20Violence%20-%20Hinton.pdf
Courtesy Autry National Center
-
Artifacts of Love and Violence:
From Riverton to San Francisco
by Gregory Hinton
The film received eight Oscar nominations and won three, for Best Director (Ang Lee), Best Original
Screenplay (Larry McMurtry and Diana Ossana), and Best Original Score (Gustavo Santaolalla). Many felt
it should also have won Best Picture over Crash.
Correction: Best Screenplay Adaptation
-
Correction: Best Screenplay Adaptation
Too late, the article has been published :D
-
Correction: Best Screenplay Adaptation
Correction: BEST PICTURE ;D
-
Artifacts of Love and Violence:
From Riverton to San Francisco
by Gregory Hinton
(https://ultimatebrokebackforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi275.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fjj282%2FSanFranciscoJohn%2FHM.jpg&hash=71aede3d93f929ed3c61386dcdef59ed76367ae9)
(https://ultimatebrokebackforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi275.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fjj282%2FSanFranciscoJohn%2FHM5.jpg&hash=35f304cc13c753e41f937413de1c8c616790f4e1)
Left: Original poster for Brokeback Mountain (2005), starring Jake Gyllenhall, Heath Ledger, Michelle Williams, and Anne Hathaway. The film received eight Oscar nominations and won three, for Best Director (Ang Lee), Best Original
Screenplay (Larry McMurtry and Diana Ossana), and Best Original Score (Gustavo Santaolalla). Many felt it should
also have won Best Picture over Crash. Courtesy Focus Features
Right: Original poster for Milk (2008), starring Sean Penn, Josh Brolin, and Emile Hirsch. The film was nominated for
eight Oscars and won two, for Best Actor (Sean Penn) and Best Original Screenplay (Dustin Lance Black). Courtesy
Focus Features
--------------------------------------------------------------------
When Jacqueline Kennedy escorted the body of her husband, President John F. Kennedy, slain by the assassin’s bullet of Lee Harvey Oswald, back to Washington, D.C., she refused to change out of the pink suit she was wearing as she rode next to him in the open motorcade through downtown Dallas. It was drenched with his blood. On Air Force One she told Lady Bird Johnson, “I want them to see what they did to Jack.”
I don’t know who the “them” was that she was referring to—the killers? his political enemies? the American people? She certainly must have known that children, watching the evening news with their families, would see her. Her own children, too, would eventually see this image. I think that even in her own profound grief, she was astute enough to seize the moment because she had a lesson to teach: This is what violence looks like.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
The Brokeback shirts and Harvey Milk’s suit provide two excellent examples of the associated conundrum the responsible curator faces when posed with the dilemma of telling a painful historical truth, physical or emotional, while tastefully putting on display the controversial artifacts of love and violence. I asked photographer Dan Nicoletta his opinion about putting Harvey Milk’s suit on public display. He was very careful with his words. “Like the West, I guess Harvey belongs to everybody now.”
In an earlier exhibition called St. Harvey, Harvey’s suit was mounted on a mannequin, prompting charges of ghoulishness. The GLBT Historical Society, in its current display, attempted to mollify critics by placing the suit in recline, under a glass case. But with the bullet holes and bloodstains still plainly evident, it is still hypnotically graphic, and hard to imagine that detractors might be appeased. I even apologized to visitors while photographing it. The suit horrifies. Horrifies.
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The full article as published in the Winter 2011 edition of 'Convergence', a publication of the Autry National Center is available here:
http://bbmfoundation.org/images/Artifacts%20of%20Love%20and%20Violence%20-%20Hinton.pdf
Courtesy Autry National Center
If you have not followed this link, do yourself a favor, it's well-written and insightful.
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The Convergence Winter 2011 Issue that contains this article is available for puchase on the Autry website. The cost is $ 5.00 plus $ 7.50 shipping.
http://shop.theautry.org/browse.cfm/convergence-winter-2011/4,490.html (http://shop.theautry.org/browse.cfm/convergence-winter-2011/4,490.html)
Artifacts of Love and Violence:
From Riverton to San Francisco
by Gregory Hinton
(https://ultimatebrokebackforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi275.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fjj282%2FSanFranciscoJohn%2FHM.jpg&hash=71aede3d93f929ed3c61386dcdef59ed76367ae9)
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Randy Quaid- Star Whackers
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHm5ddmMn10 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHm5ddmMn10)
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**All he (and his wife) does is get wackier and wackier. Nutjobs.**
kathy ::)
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PROPOSAL FOR A BROKEBACK RESORT
The purpose of this site is to state "the bleedin' obvious" that the story "Brokeback Mountain" was composed (as "Wyoming Stories") by E Annie Proulx, IN Wyoming, ABOUT Wyoming and that, as such, Brokies should be able to "consummate" their love of the story IN Wyoming.
Now none of the above is intended to detract from the visual mastery Ang Lee gave us from a multitude of locations in Canada, it's just that it would be "very nice" to have an "ACTUAL COMPACT LOCATION" (and IN Wyoming). After all, if such locations were NOT available in Wyoming (and you will see below we HAVE found them), then surely E Annie Proulx would never have put pen to paper regarding such events in the first place.
Get the picture?
Finally, the mind boggles at the Opportunities to develop a "Gemutlikeit" facility at the "Kiosk" location with all sorts of Brokie Memorabilia. Jake has already volunteered to open and cook cans of [Old Man Twist grown] Fava Beans served with a lite Frascati to revive tired skiers.
::) ::) ::)
website:
http://www.familyktab.com/brokeweb/index.html (http://www.familyktab.com/brokeweb/index.html)
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**I get the picture. What beautiful places.
Loved the videos...Ennis at the end...so sad. :'( **
kathy
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The makers of Brazil's Magnifca Cachaça suggest drinking lots of their product should you come across your son and his friend watching Brokeback Mountain. Slogan: "If you gotta be strong, we gotta be strong." Copyranter observes: "Creative note: Diagram ads? Rarely a good idea. Don't make me work to get your oh so important message."
(https://ultimatebrokebackforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi275.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fjj282%2FSanFranciscoJohn%2FCACHAA2.jpg&hash=d207e53a2ff51c6bf645614008444e3856d6db10)
http://joemygod.blogspot.com/2011/03/if-your-son-is-gay-get-drunk.html (http://joemygod.blogspot.com/2011/03/if-your-son-is-gay-get-drunk.html)
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My usual apologies in advance if I am posting something (and I wasn't quite sure where to post this, to be honest) everyone already knows about, but the indie cinema near where I work in London is screening "Sweetgrass" towards the end of April and the poster caught my eye as it is a rural scene full of sheep very reminiscent of Brokeback Mountain.
Anyway, here is the synopsis of the film which is posted on its official website:
"An unsentimental elegy to the American West, “Sweetgrass” follows the last modern-day cowboys to lead their flocks of sheep up into Montana’s breathtaking and often dangerous Absaroka-Beartooth mountains for summer pasture. This astonishingly beautiful yet unsparing film reveals a world in which nature and culture, animals and humans, vulnerability and violence are all intimately meshed."
Now, if you want proof that Annie Proulx did her homework, please see the trailer. It is quite obvious that she is a master storyteller, as these real-life sheepherders are SO evocative of her writing.
Please go to:
http://www.imdb.com/video/screenplay/vi1693189145/
Can't wait to see the whole thing!
Best wishes
Glen
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For the very few London Brokies, here are details of the screenings of "Sweetgrass" at the ICA cinema (on The Mall quite near to Charing Cross railway station). It is running between April 22 - April 30 with a special ICA members' screening on April 17. And I've just realised I am going to be out of the country on those dates! Oh well - now I will definitely have to buy the DVD!
Please visit the ICA website for London screening times:
http://www.ica.org.uk/28612/Film/Sweetgrass.html
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For the very few London Brokies, here are details of the screenings of "Sweetgrass" at the ICA cinema (on The Mall quite near to Charing Cross railway station). It is running between April 22 - April 30 with a special ICA members' screening on April 17. And I've just realised I am going to be out of the country on those dates! Oh well - now I will definitely have to buy the DVD!
Please visit the ICA website for London screening times:
http://www.ica.org.uk/28612/Film/Sweetgrass.html
Hi Glen,
Is this a recent film or an older film being reshown?? If an older film.....is it out on DVD ??
It is so evocative of BBM. We have a theatre here in Birmingham that shows indie films so I will check it out to see if it is being shown there. Thanks for the info and the link.
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Meditations on BROKEBACK MOUNTAIN: Multilayered Love Story
Nathan Donarum | Mar 24, 2011
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As I sit here writing, I am finding it hard to gather my thoughts together. Most of this essay has already been outlined, and yet I’m still not sure if it fully expresses my feelings toward Ang Lee's Brokeback Mountain. I realize that although there is a certain amount of objectivity that goes into judging the merits of a film, so much of one’s personal feelings for it is subjective.
I gather my thoughts and ideas together with that in mind. As much as this is an analysis of certain aspects of the film itself, it is also a personal essay; it is the “why” of the question “Why do you like this film?”
On the most basic level, I find Brokeback Mountain one of the most poignantly told love stories I've ever seen. It does not matter that we are dealing with two men instead of a man and a woman. In essence, that aspect in and of itself is irrelevant to me.
I have heard some criticize the film because it does not tell anything new, and "if it weren't two men no one would care!" First of all, the problem with that rationale is that, regardless of the characters' gender, the story is told with a meticulous care rarely found in love stories of any kind.
Second, the fact that they are two men is central to the entire film; to dismiss it offhand as a thematic criticism of Brokeback Mountain is to miss the point entirely. This argument makes little sense when applied to other films, e.g., “If E.T. were a human child instead of an alien, the movie would not be as revered as it is”; or maybe “If Boyz N the Hood was about white people, it wouldn’t be as relevant.” Of course it wouldn’t be; the ethnicity of the Boyz N the Hood characters is central to the story and to its power, just as the sexual orientation of the two men in Brokeback Mountain is central to its story and power.
To me, Brokeback Mountain eloquently shows us how much early 1960s Wyoming ranch hand Ennis Del Mar (Heath Ledger) and rodeo cowboy Jack Twist (Jake Gyllenhaal) love each other. As the movie unfolds, Ang Lee, and screenwriters Diana Ossana and Larry McMurtry (adapting E. Annie Proulx's short story) give us every piece for why they did.
The very fact that Ennis and Jack are two men makes their love and devotion to one another all the more affecting. After all, it's easier to dismiss a love story between a man and a woman, even if there's some reason they're "not supposed to be together," because it's taken for granted that members of the opposite sex can be romantically attracted to each other. But in Brokeback Mountain we have two men who, based on everything that society has taught them is wrong, still cannot help the way they feel.
Under society’s definition, nature would preclude them from being together; however, as the film’s tagline aptly states, “Love is a force of nature.” Despite the belief that death befalls those who act and feel as they do, they are unable to simply ignore or put a stop to their own actions and feelings.
http://www.altfg.com/blog/movie/meditations-on-brokeback-mountain-love-story/ (http://www.altfg.com/blog/movie/meditations-on-brokeback-mountain-love-story/)
Continue Reading: Meditations on BROKEBACK MOUNTAIN Pt.2: Ennis Del Mar – Iconic Film Character
http://www.altfg.com/blog/movie/brokeback-mountain-ennis-del-mar-iconic-film-character/ (http://www.altfg.com/blog/movie/brokeback-mountain-ennis-del-mar-iconic-film-character/)
Continue Reading: Meditations on BROKEBACK MOUNTAIN Pt.3: Technical Brilliance
http://www.altfg.com/blog/movie/brokeback-mountain-technical-brilliance/ (http://www.altfg.com/blog/movie/brokeback-mountain-technical-brilliance/)
Continue Reading: Meditations on BROKEBACK MOUNTAIN Pt.4: Personal Impact
http://www.altfg.com/blog/movie/brokeback-mountain-personal-impact/ (http://www.altfg.com/blog/movie/brokeback-mountain-personal-impact/)
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**This 4-part essay is beautiful. So true.**
kathy
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BCJ!
If you never post any other article on BBM, you have done something for which there are not thanks enough in the world. Thank you for all that you do, of course, but this one's very.
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That's a very good article, though it has a couple of odd mistakes. Such as misquoting "I wish I knew how to quit you." I couldn't figure out how to e-mail the author.
Ennis in the alley got me thinking. Again he's confined. Previously I'd noticed these examples of his confinement:
-- pictured in mirrors 3 times
-- his jacket is usually buttoned
-- wearing a hat and his shirt is buttoned when working on the road crew. I think he's even wearing a t-shirt underneath.
But he's confined in the alley, too, with the two walls closing in. And he's confined by the clouds. Remember in the trailer that scene has blue sky. So the weather is confining him, too.
Only after reading the essay did I think about both Jack and Ennis being in alleys. I haven't figured out a relationship or common meaning between the scenes. We know Ennis is trapped by his upcoming marraige and his inability to deal w/ his sexuality, and Jack is trapped by his need for sex with (other) men. Initial thoughts.
Maybe this should go on Symbolism and Imagery.
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You can email Nathan at
nathandonarum@gmail.com
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I just did. Thanks.
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Me too. thanks again John
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Hi Glen,
Is this a recent film or an older film being reshown?? If an older film.....is it out on DVD ??
It is so evocative of BBM. We have a theatre here in Birmingham that shows indie films so I will check it out to see if it is being shown there. Thanks for the info and the link.
Hi Sue
It looks like this documentary was made in 2009. Yes, there is a DVD - I am unsure as to whether it is available in formats outside the US.
The film has an official website at:
http://sweetgrassthemovie.com/
I cannot wait to see this film. Yes, it is very evocative of BBM. As I said in my original post, it gives one a real insight into the level of research that Annie Proulx carried out. I wonder, way back then, whether she could have imagined how far this story would "travel"?
Here's a big Wyoming hug for ya
Glen xx
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Sue, the Sweetgrass DVD is available in both US and UK formats. You can buy the US version already.
The UK version will be available at Amazon in May:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sweetgrass-DVD/dp/B004PG9G6Y/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1301089896&sr=1-2
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RE: Meditations On BBM Multilayered Love Story....posted by BCJ.
Thanks so much for posting this. You think you have seen this film and "worked it all out"....then someone comes up with another way of seeing and looking at things. It's almost like seeing the film for the first time again through someone else's eyes.
Just one small point....I can't see why people have joked about Jacks broken plea of "I wish I knew how to quite you ".In life we do things that we know are not really good for us . This also goes for relationships but you get in so deep that some times you just can't quit.
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Sue, the Sweetgrass DVD is available in both US and UK formats. You can buy the US version already.
The UK version will be available at Amazon in May:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sweetgrass-DVD/dp/B004PG9G6Y/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1301089896&sr=1-2
Hi Glen,
Thanks for all of this info. I will be waiting till May for the DVD to be available in the UK. Have had enough of trying to get stuff from US !!
Hope we both can get a copy !
You said you were going to be out of the country at the showing in London. Hope your going to somewhere wonderful and get to let your hair down but perhaps it's a business trip. In that case .....leave your flipflops and Bermuda shorts at home :D !
Sue xxx
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RE: Meditations On BBM Multilayered Love Story....posted by BCJ.
Thanks so much for posting this. You think you have seen this film and "worked it all out"....then someone comes up with another way of seeing and looking at things. It's almost like seeing the film for the first time again through someone else's eyes.
Just one small point....I can't see why people have joked about Jacks broken plea of "I wish I knew how to quite you ".In life we do things that we know are not really good for us . This also goes for relationships but you get in so deep that some times you just can't quit.
**Yes, on both points, this is so very true.
p.s. I mean, what is comical about "I wish I knew how to quit you"? I think it's a very revealing admission on Jack's part to Ennis.**
kathy
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I have no idea as to why ANYONE would view the "I wish I knew how to quit you" admission as comical. For me, it has always represented that whole star-crossed lovers scenario where two people are inextricably linked and somehow know it is never going to work out for them. Even so, they cling on in the hope that things will turn for the better.
The addiction of love.
It's the whole "Can't live with you and can't live without you" predicament.
Yes, it was quite an admission on Jack's part. He is effectively saying, "I wish I knew how to break this bond which keeps drawing me back to you."
Heart-breaking stuff.
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Hi Glen,
Thanks for all of this info. I will be waiting till May for the DVD to be available in the UK. Have had enough of trying to get stuff from US !!
Hope we both can get a copy !
You said you were going to be out of the country at the showing in London. Hope your going to somewhere wonderful and get to let your hair down but perhaps it's a business trip. In that case .....leave your flipflops and Bermuda shorts at home :D !
Sue xxx
Hi Sue
Thought I'd head back and see the folks in Sydney (no, not Lightning Flat) for a day or two. It's purely a holiday, not a business trip. Not going to Perth this time but hope to go there for the Heath exhibition next year.
I hope you get the chance to go to one of the London "Sweetgrass" screenings. If nothing else, I am sure this film will show just what a tough life sheepherders have in that part of the US.
And, yes, the shorts are packed. I need some Aussie sunshine!
Glen xx
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The line "I wish I knew how to quit you" is heart-breaking. But it is the way/the tone with which Jake delivered it that bothered some folks.
I have no idea as to why ANYONE would view the "I wish I knew how to quit you" admission as comical. For me, it has always represented that whole star-crossed lovers scenario where two people are inextricably linked and somehow know it is never going to work out for them. Even so, they cling on in the hope that things will turn for the better.
The addiction of love.
It's the whole "Can't live with you and can't live without you" predicament.
Yes, it was quite an admission on Jack's part. He is effectively saying, "I wish I knew how to break this bond which keeps drawing me back to you."
Heart-breaking stuff.
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First, "I wish I knew how to quit you" isn't a way most people would phrase his idea.
It's just amusing to some.
Also, sometimes people laugh at something out of recognition. Some people
have always wondered why people laugh when Alma sees Jack & Ennis kissing
each other. Well, I've seen Gone With the Wind several times with audiences
and audiences always laugh when Melanie catches Ashley & Scarlett together in
the sawmill, the same kind of thing.
I think some laugh when Jack says that line out of recognition that they might
feel the same way about someone. It's an "ohhhhh, I act that way, too," kind of
laugh.
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The only place where people laughed during Brokeback when I saw it at my local cinema was the Ennis and Jack anal sex scene (first night in tent).
And as for Gone With the Wind, the only scene where there was any laughter was when Rhett and Scarlett's daughter was thrown from her pony and killed.
Some real nice folks in my neighbourhood, come to think of it!
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GWTW:1) Melanie never "caught" Scarlett and Ashley anywhere. It was India Wilkes and Mrs. Meade who walked in on them at the lumber mill. What's "funny" about that?
2) Laugh when Bonnie Blue Butler falls off her pony and dies and a grief-stricken Rhett runs to her to pick her up??? Who in the world would ever "laugh" at that? This and subsequent scenes, e.g. Melanie's passing, are some of the saddest in films.
How could anyone even think of this causing laughter?? This is an insult to this beloved classic.
As for BBM,, I'll state again that I never laughed at Jack's "quit you" statement to Ennis, Alma seeing a glimpse of E&J's reunion, or FNIT/SNIT. This is an insult to this beloved classic. I would never do so and I take offense if and when anyone does. Same goes for GWTW.
kathy
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The line "I wish I knew how to quit you" is heart-breaking. But it is the way/the tone with which Jake delivered it that bothered some folks.
The tone?? >:( It was almost a sob. He sounded like he was in despare.
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Hey, don't shoot the messenger. I have no idea why people laughed at those scenes. It certainly wasn't me - GWTW and BBM are my favourite movies of all time.
Some people have no class, I guess.
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I was puzzled by the reaction of some of my own friends to that scene. Relentless mockery. But I do think there were other ways Jake could have said it and would have had more impact. Incidently, have been to that film site several times. Alberta has now paved over the gravel and installed a four stall toilet right behind where Ennis's truck is parked.
Only the alley where Ennis wept stings my heart as much.
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First, "I wish I knew how to quit you" isn't a way most people would phrase his idea.
It's just amusing to some.
It just would never have occurred to me to see it as anything other than tragic. And completely understandable.
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^^^^^^^
It says far more about the people who laugh, giggle and mock than it does about the film, Sara.
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It just would never have occurred to me to see it as anything other than tragic. And completely understandable.
Ditto
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GWTW:1) Melanie never "caught" Scarlett and Ashley anywhere. It was India Wilkes and Mrs. Meade who walked in on them at the lumber mill. What's "funny" about that?
To kathy
**YES**
You are correct, I didn't think it out properly, because Scarlet
then doesn't want to go to Melanie's for the birthday.
But one of the tenants of comedy is to be "caught."
Caught with your pants down, caught doing something you're not supposed to be;
caught in the act. It's like the line in A Christmas Story when the teacher asks who
put Flick up to sticking his tongue on the pole and tries to shame "those who did it"
with their silence but Ralphie says that kids know it's better just not to get caught.
Why do people laugh at Flick with his tongue stuck on the pole? The poor boy is
frightened out of his wits. He's cold and alone out there all by himself and no one
is helping him. And it hurts. Then he's humiliated by being dragged back into class
in front of everyone. Hilarious. When I put it that way.
Your sentiment -- what's funny about that -- is like asking why people laugh when the
cliche of falling on a banana peel happens. What's funny about that? People are hurt
emotionally and/or literally in those situations.
2) How could anyone even think of this causing laughter?? This is an insult to this beloved classic.
As for BBM,, I'll state again that I never laughed at Jack's "quit you" statement to Ennis, Alma seeing a glimpse of E&J's reunion, or FNIT/SNIT. This is an insult to this beloved classic. I would never do so and I take offense if and when anyone does. Same goes for GWTW.
I had a friend who saw BBM when it came out and was sitting next to two twenty-something girls who
were enjoying the film and when it came to the reunion kiss and Alma catches sight of it he told me one
(maybe both, I don't remember) laughed. He said the girl leaned over to her friend and whispered, "I've been
there...!" For her this scene caused a laugh of recognition. It was her way of acknowledging it and sharing
it. I've been there.
When I saw the fim once in Silverlake with a predominantly gay audience, a good deal of people laughed
when Ennis looked around to see if anyone might be watching, before they kissed. Some people laughed
when Ennis said his father might have been the one who did the deed to Earl. At a Bafta screening, the
audience laughed when Alma said "I'd have 'em if you'd support 'em."
As for the "quit you" line, this line I've never witnessed laughter to in a theatre, but if someone
does, maybe it's that laughter of recognition someone might have where they've been attracted
to someone that hasn't exactly added a whole lot of benefit to their life, but they just couldn't
help it and they laugh at that recognition. People often laugh for reasons that are neither
insulting or negative. People laugh at some of the things the two rodeo cowboys say on the
Amazing Race, simply because most of us don't talk like that, like one's penchant for over using
the phrase, "Oh my gravy." I never heard anyone put the idea behind this phrase this way before:
"I wish I knew how to quit you." Maybe, simply, some just find that phrase amusing. And if they do,
why is it insulting?
People often laugh at things when they are uncomfortable or when they perceive others, like a
character in a film, are uncomfortable, or in danger--how many times do you hear people laugh in
some tense moments in a horror film? Plenty.
Laughing is not always mockery, as oregondoggie wrote, and Kathy, it isn't always insulting.
It's a human emotion and often complex. I grant there are a zillion places in this world you can
find offense or insult, but to find it in these instances of laughing just means some people are
different and not like you. Laughing can be learning, witness the old maxim: There is truth in
humor.
If you guys think these things are insulting, I take it you don't visit the photocaptioning thread
very often. If one wants to, you can find offense in most anything. But why not reach for the
angels of your better nature.
I guess I just don't get this -- if someone else is laughing it must be insulting. The GWTW scene in the
sawmill when India and Mrs. Meade see Scarlett & Ashley together IS very funny when you consider
the fact it's the one moment in Scarlett's life when she "isn't" up to no good with Ashley and actually is
trying to rectify her situation with him and THAT'S when she gets caught? In a moment of pure innocence?
Who's going to believe THAT? Irony! Meaning-laughter!
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Some very valid and well-thought-out points, Lyle.
I think it is always worth giving some thought to why people go to the cinema. When I went to see BBM for the first time, it was a very early screening in London and it was a small audience of what appeared to be mainly gay men. No one laughed.
The second time I saw it, I was in suburbia and the movie was riding the rollercoaster of all the promotional hype. Just about everyone by then knew what the story was and it had almost become a bit of a 'date movie' for young straight couples. During the anal sex scene (first night in tent) some of the young (presumably straight) guys in the audience laughed.
I must admit I wasn't too surprised.
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About the laughing: those pesky scientists have said laughter originates in babies, in fear and in being startled. If that is so, then some laughter, at least, at inappropriate times, is a primitive response to the unexpected, the unfamiliar, or even the fearful.
Slipping on a banana peel, in a comedy skit, is an obvious example. We really don't want the comedian to suffer. It is the suddenness and the split-second "ouch" that the audience can then convert to a laugh.
Also, aren't there differences in laughter? Uneasy laughs? Belly laughs? Empathetic, supportive laughs? Nervous laughs?
Yes, the response is insulting, to those who want silence and appreciation. But it does not, in every case, mean derision or contempt. I guess each case is different.
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**Hi to Heath4ever and Lyle --
Thank you for answering my post re "laughing" (!) at scenes in BBM and GWTW. And for explaining.
I sincerely appreciate it.
I suppose I love these films so much I can't even think of anyone - total jerks - who could "laugh" at certain scenes.
Some people definitely have no class, not one little bit; they wouldn't even know the meaning of the word.
kathy
p.s. They are also MY favorites of all time (along with Lawrence of Arabia).
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Hey, Kathy. I love that you are passionate about Brokeback! It shows you care.
I love Lawrence of Arabia too. I absolutely adore movies with an epic sweep - certainly Brokeback, Gone With the Wind and Lawrence of Arabia all fit the bill beautifully.
I also love Ryan's Daughter. I saw it as a teenager and it was the first movie I can remember where the music seemed so important to the story.
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**I know, Heath4Ever. I do love them and am very passionate about them.
And LOA is something that will never be seen again; it is director D. Lean's masterpiece (rightfully so), and Peter O'Toole's iconic performance lives forever, like the film.
kathy
p.s. Peter - my unrequited love. :( Sigh...
p.s. p.s. Maurice Jarre composed the music for LOA and Ryan's Daughter; D. Lean always chose him from LOA onward.
What beautiful music and themes!
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And let's not forget that Peter O'Toole did not win the Best Actor Oscar for Lawrence of Arabia!
Sound familiar?
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p.s. p.s. Maurice Jarre composed the music for LOA and Ryan's Daughter; D. Lean always chose him from LOA onward. What beautiful music and themes!
He also wrote a score that I love for a more recent film (more recent--it was 15 or so years!)
and even won the Golden Globe for it -- A Walk in the Clouds. Ampas didn't even nominate it.
Sound familiar?
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And let's not forget that Peter O'Toole did not win the Best Actor Oscar for Lawrence of Arabia!
Sound familiar?
**You bet. It sounds so familiar. Plus, I get furious just thinking about it.
To this day the fact that Peter didn't win Best Actor for his iconic role is commented upon. Even Robt. Osborne of TMC has said everyone thinks he won. He has been nominated EIGHT times for best actor. The stupid dummies of "ampas" tried to make up to him with that "award for body of work" in 2003. He graciously accepted it, but at first did not want to, wanting to win it himself.
Then he was nominated again in 2007 for "Venus". Guess what - ampas snubbed him again. What an insult. They are nothing but jackasses - as we know.
kathy >:(
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I guess we could have a whole thread devoted to Oscar howlers.
What about Meryl Streep in "Out of Africa" being beaten for Best Actress by Geraldine Page in "A Trip to Bountiful"?
"A Trip to What????!!!!" you may well ask.
I read an article recently with a famous director (I think it was Speilberg but I can't be sure) who said that as the years go by, people forget who won the Oscars and just remember good movies. I am sure he is right.
And speaking earlier about movies with an epic sweep, Out of Africa is a stunning example of this.
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I guess we could have a whole thread devoted to Oscar howlers.
What about Meryl Streep in "Out of Africa" being beaten for Best Actress by Geraldine Page in "A Trip to Bountiful"?
"A Trip to What????!!!!" you may well ask.
Very interesting. This may shed some light on my own reaction to "The Trip to Bountiful."
I never heard of the movie until one evening I surfed into it on TCM. I had already missed the first :20 minutes, so I really didn't catch the premise of the story, but in the next half hour, I pieced it together. And of course I watched it to the end. I'm not ashamed to say I was in tears.
If you, like me, feel that Heath Ledger absolutely became Ennis Del Mar, and made his struggles and burdens mine, I urge you to see Bountiful. That is exactly what Geraldine Page does for Carrie Watts in 1940s Houston. Like Brokeback, the supporting actors became real people, with hopes and fears and unexpected kindnesses. Unlike Brokeback, the ending is a triumph of the heart.
Sometimes I wonder if my own age is a factor in my love for this movie. I suspect my reaction may have been different if I saw it when I was 25 or 50. But the same could be said for Brokeback.
I love every one of the movies that has been mentioned, but Bountiful, like Brokeback, looks honestly at the microcosm of little people. Geraldine and her movie both received Oscars; Heath and Brokeback did not. Except in my heart they did.
~~~fia
These folks said it better than I ever could:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0090203/usercomments?start=0 (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0090203/usercomments?start=0)
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OK, I think you have made a very valid point, Forever In Awe, and that is someone can give an outstanding performance in what is not necessarily considered to be an outstanding movie. A case in point would be someone like Hilary Swank in "Boys Don't Cry". Not a great movie, in my opinion, but certainly a standout performance and more than worthy of an Oscar.
I should have thought a bit more before I posted that last comment of mine...... and I will certainly re-visit "A Trip to Bountiful".
Another thing worth bearing in mind is the competition in any given year. For example, I made a comment recently about Peter O'Toole ("Lawrence of Arabia") being beaten for Best Actor. When I did my homework, I saw he was in fact beaten by Gregory Peck in "To Kill a Mockingbird". Hardly a case of being in bad company or being beaten by a poor performance.
But I still maintain that there are some years when Oscar gets it WRONG!
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The Oscars often go for politically correct, though perhaps the opposite happened w/ Brokeback.
In 1962 you had a civil rights movie's performance beating a sword-and-sandals epic's. In 1967, you had the The Graduate losing to ... oh, what was it, oh yes, another civil rights movie.
And Dustin Hoffman lost to Rod Steiger. That could have been atonement for 1965, when Rod Steiger's Pawnbroker performance lost to ... I can't bring myself to say it.
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I should have thought a bit more before I posted that last comment of mine...... and I will certainly re-visit "A Trip to Bountiful".
I haven't revisited A Trip to Bountiful in many a year, but I saw it a couple times in the theatre when it
came out and a few more on vhs when it was released. I love Geraldine Page's performance in this film
and I think it's a fine film, adapted for the movies by the wonderful writer Horton Foote from his television
play. (I don't know if it was ever a stage play. Lillian Gish played the role on tv.) It's really a very simple
story of a woman who just wants to revisit her childhood home. She wants it so much that Geraldine Page
makes us want it that much, too. She was no slouch in the acting area, having been nominated several
times throughout her career, with this her only win. You don't have to revisit the film, but I'll tell you
something. You mentioned her winning over Meryl Streep in Out of Africa, and I saw that film once and I
hated it. (Actually, Sydney Pollock said Meryl Streep was in tears after she first saw it privately screened
and said, "Who's going to want to see this?" Or something like that.) It was in a film series at ampas
several years ago and I was not going to go, but was persuaded to by someone I had met who had
worked on the film as a p.a. To my surprise, I liked it. And quite a bit. Sometimes we see movies
when we aren't ready for them, or the circumstances aren't right--the theatre's 100* or the people
in front of you won't shut up or there's a baby crying--or you've got a headache. Or you were told to
see it because you have to. Whatever. For whatever reason, I revisited Out of Africa. The thing is,
if we don't like a movie we tend to never want to see it again. Because of changing my mind about
Out of Africa I attended another two screenings after that of movies I hated. The Piano and
Lord of the Rings (sorry all you LOTR fans). I still don't care for The Piano, but I appreciated things
about it, like the moody cinematography that I totally ignored the first time. I don't hate it as much.
However, I still don't like LOTR. The line that Frodo says at the end of the film still rings true for me:
"I wish this had never happened."
I wonder if people who didn't like BBM will ever give it another try.
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I wonder if people who didn't like BBM will ever give it another try.
I have a friend who was indifferent to Brokeback when it first came out. I think all the media hype ruined the whole cinematic experience for her. In her own words, she said she "just didn't get it".
She revisited the film recently on DVD and said she rather enjoyed it. Now she trots out quotes from the movie whereas in the past, when I used to do this, she used to roll her eyes. She says she can now see how nuanced some of the acting is.
So - yes - it is possible to revisit something and give it another chance!
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Lyle, The Trip to Bountiful is also a stage play, in fact, in Washington DC right now it's being performed for the first time with an all black cast.
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That's a trip!
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Another thing worth bearing in mind is the competition in any given year. For example, I made a comment recently about Peter O'Toole ("Lawrence of Arabia") being beaten for Best Actor. When I did my homework, I saw he was in fact beaten by Gregory Peck in "To Kill a Mockingbird". Hardly a case of being in bad company or being beaten by a poor performance.
But I still maintain that there are some years when Oscar gets it WRONG!
**They get it WRONG more often than RIGHT! The only reason G. Peck won for that performance was because he was nominated four times previously (for better performances and lost), and the stupid "ampas" members decided it was time for him to win Best Actor. That's the way they work; they still do it.
Peter O'Toole's performance as LOA is iconic, as is the film. Peter definitely should have won Best Actor, as LOA won 7 awards, including Best Picture. Robt. Osborne has stated that so many people, after seeing Lawrence for the first time or after the restoration in 1988-89, even to this day came up to him and said "how could this be -his not winning Best Actor?" In fact, in 2006 Parade Magazine voted his performance as T.E. Lawrence the greatest (#1) of all time. And he has deserved it many a time thereafter, but they snubbed him. He is the last of the truly great actors now. As has happened several times before, the "academy" tried to make it up to him by giving him that "Honorary" Award for his body of work in 2003. Yeah, sure.
Anyway, this sounds sooo familiar. A young actor does not win for an iconic performance. Terrible.**
kathy
edited to fix quote
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The Oscars often go for politically correct, though perhaps the opposite happened w/ Brokeback.
In 1962 you had a civil rights movie's performance beating a sword-and-sandals epic's. In 1967, you had the The Graduate losing to ... oh, what was it, oh yes, another civil rights movie.
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**NO WAY is Lawrence of Arabia a "sword and sandals epic"; this cheapens it so terribly. It is a classic masterpiece, as is Peter's immortal performance, and always will be.
And it is certainly recognized by everyone in the world that a beautiful classic film and classic performances in BBM lost due to the wonderful "academy's" inside and outside job of plotting and talking against it, with their has-beens, the "press", and of course homophobia joining in. The "members" dutifully crumbled to pressure and gave a Best Picture award to something so bad as a Haggis' race card film named TRASH. Terrible.**
kathy
edited to fix quote
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Quaids make Star Whackers film
Randy Quaid and his wife Evi are taking their 'star whackers' saga to the screen after making a new film about the evil forces they claim have driven them out of Hollywood.
-------------------------------------------------------------
A statement from Evi Quaid reads, "For the first time I would like an audience reaction to my art as a work in progress, so I may understand its content through other eyes."
http://www.smh.com.au/entertainment/movies/quaids-make-star-whackers-film-20110329-1ceb1.html (http://www.smh.com.au/entertainment/movies/quaids-make-star-whackers-film-20110329-1ceb1.html)
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http://www.latimes.com/health/boostershots/la-heb-love-hurts-20110329,0,6288107.story
A handful of studies has established an increasingly close relationship between our experience of physical pain and the painful emotions that come with feeling socially rejected.
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BROKEBACK REVISITED
Island in the Sea
Ennis del Mar is a curious name, both Gaelic and Spanish.
When, at the beginning of the film, Ennis introduces himself by first name only, Jack Twist asks, “Your folks stop at Ennis?” His question was deeper than he knew.
Ennis, an Irish variant of Innis, means ‘island’, and carries a connotation of ‘only choice’. In Spanish, del Mar means ‘of the sea’. Island in the Sea is as close an eponym as could be imagined, opening one of the most moving and influential pictures of our time.
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I will arise and go now, and go to Innisfree,
And a small cabin build there… And live alone in the bee-loud glade.
I will arise and go now, for always night and day
I hear the water lapping with low sounds by the shore;
While I stand on the roadway, or on the pavements gray,
I hear it in the deep heart's core.
William Butler Yeats
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Brokeback Mountain, based on a 1997 New Yorker story by Annie Proulx, became a film that leapt from box office hit to cultural monitor to cinema classic, all in four years. The death at age 28 of its Australian star, Heath Ledger, like the death of James Dean before him, has fixed a lasting place in American culture. The film itself continues to be watched and studied and felt. Americans understand cowboys, although here the genre of the Western is both affirmed and subverted. Brokeback followed many films, but was the first of its kind.
There are reasons for its power.
One of the film’s most arresting images sees Ennis alone, at the end of their first summer, on his knees at the confessional rough wall of an alley. Jack, brilliantly portrayed by Jake Gyllenhaal, has left him. Vomiting, punching, crying, resisting, his guts pulled like Prometheus, Ennis yells, “What the fuck you lookin’ at?” when a stranger witnesses his agony.
The next scene moves Ennis to a church. He is marrying Alma. What he confessed in that agony he will never reveal to his wife. Ennis says, “I do”, to the wrong person. No one is there to contest his false declaration. The only person who might lacks the words, and lives a thousand miles away, and four years in the future.
Four years later, having tested the waters with a small postcard, Jack drives up to the del Mar family home, three sparse rooms above a laundry in Wyoming. Ennis, chain-smoking and pacing all day, finally sees Jack arrive. He bounds down the stairs, grabs him in a furious embrace and shoves him hard against another wall, driving kiss into kiss. Jack spins him around and multiplies his own violent longing and regret.
They do not know they have a witness. Ennis’ wife, played by Michelle Williams, has gone to the door. She knows what she has seen, and her face registers a shattering, a horror, an impossible admission. Her tragedy has been launched. Nothing will ever be right again.
For all of their frightened desire, Ennis and Jack had begun their lives unable to hear one another.
“Ennis.”
“Your folks stop at Ennis?”
“DEL Mar”, he replied with sullen emphasis.
“Nice to meet you, Ennis del MAR”, Jack said, having missed the rhythm and, from the outset, Ennis’ inability to define and even to name himself. Their relationship will, for twenty years, be riddled with such incapacity. Small, it begins.
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We heard a screenplay expand a story, moving from its laconic tautness to a natural and parallel universe, and saw Diana Ossana and Larry McMurtry win Best Adapted Screenplay at the Oscars. No wonder. Not a beat was missed, not an argument dropped. It may have been the most seamless, tightly codified and incontestably human adaptation of original material in recent Academy history. Every expansion must have had a joint somewhere, but this could not be discerned. They created a wholly separate and equally viable work of art. This was part of the film’s astonishment, and enchantment. It explains the recurring phenomenon of audiences sitting wet-eyed at the end, unwilling to leave, too hurt to move, sobbing, in theatre after theatre across America. In a gesture of unusual and immense respect, many theatre managers left the lights down long after the final credits had passed. They understood that no one was able to leave.
And at the end, most audiences witnessed themselves. For perhaps the first time ever, they identified with inchoate, inarticulate, self-bound, other-desiring gay men who had no words, no context, no armament to defend against what they knew to be true.
Many reasons account for the staggering emotional power of Brokeback Mountain. Many social and political tides have turned in consequence of its mass appeal, its fortuitous timing, its artistic power, its national mirror. At the end, those reasons are found in the simplicity of two shirts.
When Ennis discovers them in his friend’s childhood room, Jack's shirt is visible on the outside, with his own tucked inside it. They share a single hanger. In the film’s final scene, after Ennis has taken them home, they are reversed. Jack's shirt is now inside Ennis'. The protected is now the protector. Love has its place after all.
In one last unspoiled wilderness two men came upon one another, and could not find home, save in brief and furtive and secret passages where they might be safe, and alone. Desire never abated. Courage never triumphed. And at the end, there was “Never enough time. Never enough”.
Today, there is. The film has remained with us for years. No wonder. All wonder.
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The full essay can be found on Facebook:
http://www.facebook.com/#!/group.php?gid=106920932680513&v=app_2373072738 (http://www.facebook.com/#!/group.php?gid=106920932680513&v=app_2373072738)
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From BROKEBACK REVISITED:
.....
For all of their frightened desire, Ennis and Jack had begun their lives unable to hear one another.
“Ennis.”
“Your folks stop at Ennis?”
“DEL Mar”, he replied with sullen emphasis.
“Nice to meet you, Ennis del MAR”, Jack said, having missed the rhythm and, from the outset, Ennis’ inability to define and even to name himself. Their relationship will, for twenty years, be riddled with such incapacity. Small, it begins.
I must admit I missed this subtlety also. Not that there wasn't a second chance: the same exact rhythm was missed years later when Cassie asks Ennis his name. The only improvement was that Ennis now gave his whole name, Ennis DEL Mar, without prompting. And, of course, she replied "Nice to meet you, Ennis Del MAR."
I was born in Chicago, and grew up surrounded by "foreign" names. Neither I nor anyone I knew found that disconcerting. I even knew some Del Mars, and there were businesses that advertised on the radio by that name. Everyone pronounced it Del MAR. When one speaks it in a Spanish sentence, it is still "del MAR."
I have to wonder: did Jack and Cassie automatically use the common pronunciation of a fairly common name? Why didn't Ennis's family?
Annie didn't write any of that. It was 100% written by Diana and Larry, so the answer lies with them. Were they incorporating a personal experience in their screenplay just to add bulk, or did they actually intend to demonstrate reviewer Charles Barber's insight?
It is both subtle and profound.
I note that it carries the timestamp of April 6, 2010, but this is the first time I ever saw it. Can anyone tell me if it has been mentioned on DCF before? This is some great writing.
~~~fia
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Don't forget, it might have been Heath, or Ang, or somebody
else for that matter, that put in the DEL mar inflection.
It may have been heath's speech coach, too?
I think it's been discussed before, somewhere,,,
I recall a photocap, at least, where jack asks ennis if his
parents just stopped at del mar and ennis went on to say his
name was "ennis del mar ischino cherry cake walk of fame", or something like that. ;)
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I think also that the mispronounciation of del MAR is an attempt to show
the westernization, or the mid-westernization, of foreign names. Like you
said, subtle! No stone unturned in this movie.
Except maybe the fake sideburns, but they had a tight shooting schedule, yeah?
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I note that it carries the timestamp of April 6, 2010, but this is the first time I ever saw it. Can anyone tell me if it has been mentioned on DCF before? This is some great writing.
I searched for the article on the web last night and I couldn't find any links.
I'm always searching for Brokeback groups on Facebook, and I just found this one yesterday. I never saw it before. The article was posted last April, but I think someone just opened up the group this week.
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That 'gay' movie....
Posted by Ryan Blanco
A few days ago, a social justice class I am enrolled in screened Brokeback Mountain as one of its weekly films on societal issues. The film followed a long series since the beginning of the semester on issues ranging from the battle in the Algiers to adolescent abandonment. Most of the films are foreign so it was with some clarity that I was able to understand better both the dialogue and director’s intent for Brokeback. However, it was reaction to the film that puzzled me.
As participants in popular culture as well as the 21st century, I trust those reading this blog are familiar with the film. You’ve probably heard it or perhaps refer to it yourself as, “that GAY movie,” or “that movie where those two guys fuck on screen”. You’re not too far from the truth as it is a film depicting two hyper-masculine men who engage in a romantic relationship spanning nearly 19 years despite being married and having children as heterosexuals. But I don’t think most people viewing the film in my class saw it that way.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I asked if anyone had enjoyed the film Alexander the Great starring equally celebrated Hollywood heart throb Colin Farrel. I referenced this film because I felt that it was interesting that the producers and director conveniently left out (to the best of my knowledge) the homosexual companionship he experienced as a great leader. In addition, I asked why does society view overt sexuality differently between a heterosexual couple and a homosexual couple – especially when the sex portrayed is more sensual between two men than an aggressive, illegal-in-42-states-just-won-the-superbowl-back-of-your-fathers-Chrysler-sedan-on-your-birthday-drunk-off-mccormick-vodka-cuz-your-best-friend-is-a-cheap-asshole-rip-the-car-stero-out-listening-to-lynard-skynard’s-“that smell’- in-the-dennys-parking-lot-at-3am-kind of sex between a heterosexual man and woman..?
full article here:
http://emericancircus.blogspot.com/2011/04/that-gay-movie.html (http://emericancircus.blogspot.com/2011/04/that-gay-movie.html)
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... In addition, I asked why does society view overt sexuality differently between a heterosexual couple and a homosexual couple – especially when the sex portrayed is more sensual between two men than an aggressive, illegal-in-42-states-just-won-the-superbowl-back-of-your-fathers-Chrysler-sedan-on-your-birthday-drunk-off-mccormick-vodka-cuz-your-best-friend-is-a-cheap-asshole-rip-the-car-stero-out-listening-to-lynard-skynard’s-“that smell’- in-the-dennys-parking-lot-at-3am-kind of sex between a heterosexual man and woman..?
full article here:
http://emericancircus.blogspot.com/2011/04/that-gay-movie.html (http://emericancircus.blogspot.com/2011/04/that-gay-movie.html)
Lol... and so true. Rape scenes, too, are viewed as less offensive. ::) :P
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RE: bcj's Reply #1331 today:
**This entire article re BBM (dating back to 4/10?) is beautiful. Thank you for posting it here.
kathy :)
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-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: bcj's Reply #1336 today:
**I think such "students'" reaction - to the classic, beautiful film that BBM is - is revolting. Well, this is what today's so-called "college" students think; they are the losers and will always be so.
Yet they will go along with everything that IS revolting in any other film - rape scenes, effing all over the place, anything dirty, disgusting and/or filthy - and not bat an eye. Doesn't this tell us what a sorry state of mind those "college" students have?**
kathy >:( >:(
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A few posts ago was the discussion of how to pronounce Ennis's last name, and who was responsible for emphasizing DEL rather than Mar.
When I started reading the BBM Story to Screenplay book, I marked in the screenplay the discrepancies between it and the dialog on the screen. There are a zillion of 'em. In every case I can recall, the movie's version is better than the screenplay's. I don't have handy the pdf of what might be called the "shooting script," and so can't compare it w/ the screenplay.
Among other things I don't have is insight into who might have made the changes between the screenplay and the final movie. But they have our eternal gratitude for making the movie sound perfect. I suspect that if it wasn't the screenwriters, then it was the: director, actors, or dialog coach. I have a couple of friends in the movie biz and I'll ask them the next chance I get.
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It just would never have occurred to me to see it as anything other than tragic. And completely understandable.
One thing you have to remember is that the particlar line
(I wish I knew how to quit you) was played out in the media
Soooo many times and made fun of on radio and tv spots and
whatnot, so when the line did finally come it was recognized
and there was that "there it is" moment. Plus, I bet that it was
perhaps maybe mostly straight men (people) not so sympathetic
or sensitive to the film that were able to laugh. Some of it may have
been nervous laughter, too. And the way jack said it was so strained
and had a bit of texas twang... plus a lot of folks probably never heard a
gay male character deliver such powerful emotions in a film. I suspect
much of what was heard was nervous or uncomfortable laughter.
I recall some uproar in oakland during screenings of schindler's list when
there was scattered laughter during some of the most horribly graphic scenes.
They realized some people just deal with horror differently, almost as if it is
a natural reaction to chuckle in order to relieve tension... it turned out that most
of those that laughed were HS kids... probably too young to deal with true horror.
But there were some moments that caused genuine laughter in most of the
screenings of bbm that I attended. Most notably "texan's don't drink coffee/
he's from texas" (in the middle of a devestatingly sad scene), and the harmonica
jokes that ennis cracks (flattened/run the sheep off). There are more, I forgot...
oh: Balls on him the size a apples.... matin call... :D
I can't imagine any theater audience not laughing at all!
also, the outright cheering from the audience was nice--
jack telling LD to sit down and shut up won over hearts.
Still, it was tears, more than anything, that defined the film. I can forgive more easily those that laughed than the ones that could not cry at all.
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About the laughing: those pesky scientists have said laughter originates in babies, in fear and in being startled. If that is so, then some laughter, at least, at inappropriate times, is a primitive response to the unexpected, the unfamiliar, or even the fearful.
Slipping on a banana peel, in a comedy skit, is an obvious example. We really don't want the comedian to suffer. It is the suddenness and the split-second "ouch" that the audience can then convert to a laugh.
Also, aren't there differences in laughter? Uneasy laughs? Belly laughs? Empathetic, supportive laughs? Nervous laughs?
Yes, the response is insulting, to those who want silence and appreciation. But it does not, in every case, mean derision or contempt. I guess each case is different.
Oh, I should have read ahead! Well said!
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Marc, I suspect you're right... all of the above.
A group effort. Each artisan working together to get it right..
It's been said that the bbm crew was like a loving family, and we've
heard so many stories how individuals contributed to the film. Even
extras and locals were relied upon to give it a genuine sense of western
place and an authentic feel.
I loved hearing how Heath himself came up with the idea to switch the shirts, how they used rodrigo when the first hustler did not feel/seem right. How they waited for hours sometimes just capture the perfect clouds and light.
The DEL mar bit, and this is just a hunch, probably came from heath himself. He was the one delivering the line, after all.. I have a feeling he did what felt "right".... :)
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That 'gay' movie....
Posted by Ryan Blanco
A few days ago, a social justice class I am enrolled in screened Brokeback Mountain as one of its weekly films on societal issues. The film followed a long series since the beginning of the semester on issues ranging from the battle in the Algiers to adolescent abandonment. Most of the films are foreign so it was with some clarity that I was able to understand better both the dialogue and director’s intent for Brokeback. However, it was reaction to the film that puzzled me.
As participants in popular culture as well as the 21st century, I trust those reading this blog are familiar with the film. You’ve probably heard it or perhaps refer to it yourself as, “that GAY movie,” or “that movie where those two guys fuck on screen”. You’re not too far from the truth as it is a film depicting two hyper-masculine men who engage in a romantic relationship spanning nearly 19 years despite being married and having children as heterosexuals. But I don’t think most people viewing the film in my class saw it that way.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I asked if anyone had enjoyed the film Alexander the Great starring equally celebrated Hollywood heart throb Colin Farrel. I referenced this film because I felt that it was interesting that the producers and director conveniently left out (to the best of my knowledge) the homosexual companionship he experienced as a great leader. In addition, I asked why does society view overt sexuality differently between a heterosexual couple and a homosexual couple – especially when the sex portrayed is more sensual between two men than an aggressive, illegal-in-42-states-just-won-the-superbowl-back-of-your-fathers-Chrysler-sedan-on-your-birthday-drunk-off-mccormick-vodka-cuz-your-best-friend-is-a-cheap-asshole-rip-the-car-stero-out-listening-to-lynard-skynard’s-“that smell’- in-the-dennys-parking-lot-at-3am-kind of sex between a heterosexual man and woman..?
full article here:
http://emericancircus.blogspot.com/2011/04/that-gay-movie.html (http://emericancircus.blogspot.com/2011/04/that-gay-movie.html)
This article is very interesting, particularly the discussion about the hyper masculinty of US, (and I would say, to a slightly lesser extent European) society. It seems to me that in expressing this worship of masculinity, that an enormous and overwhelming fear of femininity is implicated.
This is what is behind the sexualisation of young women until the image completely dominates the person, (weight, clothing, perfect makeup etc), and to my mind homophobia, in which men who care, who feel, and who are sensitive and thoughtful, as well as attracted to other men, are persecuted for being what they are.
A lot of this anti feminine feeling has been whipped up by the church, who should know better.
It is not at all healthy, IMO.
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When I started reading the BBM Story to Screenplay book, I marked in the screenplay the discrepancies between it and the dialog on the screen. There are a zillion of 'em. In every case I can recall, the movie's version is better than the screenplay's. I don't have handy the pdf of what might be called the "shooting script," and so can't compare it w/ the screenplay.
I don't think of what you are talking about as discrepancies. After all, screenplays are blueprints for a
film and things vary. Sometimes an actor's lines or words are a bit different for any number of reasons.
Sometimes it sounds better to use a different word. Sometimes they just don't remember them
as written and they come out with the idea of the line, but not the exact words. Sometimes things
are edited in the editing room. I was listening to the commentary on a film once where they talked
about editing one of the actor's dialogue scenes to give a completely different meaning to the line
than what had originally been intended! Everyone brings their unique talents to a film. In the final
analysis, we as audience members hope that if we are viewing it that we like it. Rarely do films get
as much line for line attention as BBM has with us. You think Michelle or Jake or others have dissected
the film as much as we have? They probably would have no answers for half the questions we would
ask them. It would be like someone asking us the details about a meal that we cooked five years ago.
After having attended panel discussions and Q&A's over the years following screenings of ampas
Best film winners and nominees, two things have always stuck in my head as generalities from these
sessions. One is that no matter the movie, someone always says they had no money or enough money
to work with and two, many of the best moments in films that people remember happen by sheer
accident or some immediate shooting problem that had to be overcome. It was in the moment and
not planned out in minute detail beforehand. It just happens during the process.
SIDEBAR: In trying to decipher who was responsible for any particular detail in a movie, I have
always wondered if it was the director, writer, sound editor or producer (!) who was responsible
for the moment in E.T. where we see E.T. pick up a couple of Reese's Pieces in close-up,
and then his fingers disappear from the screen. After a beat or two of silence, we hear the
"crunch crunch" sound of E.T. eating them. Audiences usually laugh at that moment and I have
always wondered who actually thought of that moment. Coulda been any number of people.
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Not at all healthy, and so pervasive. Our culture is steeped in it... :P
Damn church! >:(
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When I started reading the BBM Story to Screenplay book, I marked in the screenplay the discrepancies between it and the dialog on the screen. There are a zillion of 'em. In every case I can recall, the movie's version is better than the screenplay's.
Marc, you seem to have struck a nerve. In the :45 minutes I composed a reply to your post, 5 other big replies have appeared. Ha!
On balance I agree with you, but there are two that have always bothered me.
SNIT, the "I'm sorry/It's all right" debate.
I think that what we witness on the screen subtitles here are maddeningly confused. Many Brokies want Ennis to say "I'm sorry" because they think he has a lot to be sorry about: brutish behavior the first night in the tent, and self-righteous arrogance the next morning. But his subsequent face of regret when he looks at the slaughtered sheep suggests he honestly rues last night's indiscretion; maybe he wasn't putting on an act for Jack's benefit after all.
What's wrong? The screenplay doesn't even contain the line "I'm sorry."
But then many sharp-eared Brokies swear they hear Jack say "I'm sorry." Many others do not. Sometimes I think there may be more than one DVD version with dissimilar sound levels; maybe it's the different brands of DVD players with dissimilar frequency response curves.
What would Jack be apologizing for? I've read some convoluted hypothetical reasons, none of which I find convincing.
Then there's the group that resolve it all by postulating that the almost sub-audible phrase was added during editing, even though we don't see Ennis's lips move. They reply that Ennis is so tight-lipped anyway that this could still be feasible.
My personal opinion is that I can understand why Ennis might have said it, but I cannot understand why Jack would have. I would like to say that nothing mars SNIT for me, but in fact, this does.
My second complaint is no where near as important, it just my own idiosyncrasy, I guess.
In the SS, Annie writes
"You know friend, this is a goddam bitch of a unsatisfactory situation."
In the screenplay, Diana and Larry write
"You know friend, this is a goddam bitch of a unsatisfactory situation."
In the movie, Jack says
"You know friend, this is a goddam bitch of an unsatisfactory situation."
The Master and her Disciples honor the misused indefinite article, and Jake comes along and corrects them, undermining completely our high school drop out country boy's mantra of illiteracy.
Jake, I luv ya, but you deserve a kick in the ass for this.
~~~fia
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Lyle, I bet a lot of the "magic" happens in the editing room as well. Sometimes scenes are pieced together from different scenes to create a new one that never even existed before the final cut.
That's what struck me as funny about people on here arguing about what they "hear" the actors saying. So many lines are dubbed in later, right? Those quiet conversations between jack and ennis filmed next to roaring rivers?
They could be all foleyed in at a later date.
So when people say that they can or can't hear something because they are watching the lips move, it don't necessarily make it so!
That canadian whisky sloshing in a bottle in "wyoming" could be plain tap water in a paper cup in a sound studio off Melrose.
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The Master and her Disciples honor the misused indefinite article, and Jake comes along and corrects them, undermining completely our high school drop out country boy's mantra of illiteracy.
Jake, I luv ya, but you deserve a kick in the ass for this.
~~~fia
Hahah. I like to think jack twist learned some things as he matured!
But he may have still spelled you're your. ;)
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FWIW, I've heard one of my show biz friends say that dubbing later is done much less than it used to be because it's expensive.
It is irritating that we have to have the it's all right/I'm sorry discussion. The dialog simply should have been clearer.
Regarding "a unsatisfactory situation." Using "an" makes the words easier for the speaker to say. It takes effort to use "a." Which makes me think whoever decided to use "an" got it right. OTHO, I suspect AP had heard people talk like that. So maybe I'm wrong.
I wonder if Jake made the change and nobody noticed.
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FWIW, I've heard one of my show biz friends say that dubbing later is done much less than it used to be because it's expensive.
It is irritating that we have to have the it's all right/I'm sorry discussion. The dialog simply should have been clearer.
Regarding "a unsatisfactory situation." Using "an" makes the words easier for the speaker to say. It takes effort to use "a." Which makes me think whoever decided to use "an" got it right. OTHO, I suspect AP had heard people talk like that. So maybe I'm wrong.
I wonder if Jake made the change and nobody noticed.
True about dubbing, but shooting next to roaring rivers is one thing.
You can't turn the sound on that down!
Heh... true. I think they made the snit dialog undecipherable intentionally!
Hmmmmm. Naw, I think Ang would notice! It probbly just sounded funny.
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I just wanted to throw in an example of unintended things happening
while filming. This is a television program, in which the pace of filming
can be fast and furious, but nevertheless.
I was watching an episode on dvd of an old tv series called Tales of the Gold Monkey.
The writer and producer did a commentary track on the episode. They had decided
to film a scene first that was heavily dialogue laden. They didn't usually do this because
it gave the actors more time to learn the dialogue if they did not. To further complicate
matters, the scene involved Caitlin O'Heaney, the lead woman on the show and the
guest star who was Kim Cattral who had flown in the night before and had been up
all night because of the delay. Well, this scene, he said was done about 43 times
becasue Kim was having a lot of trouble with the dialogue. One of the bits had
Caitlin throw her bowl she had been eating out of against the wall and smashing it.
They kept rehearsing various parts of the scenes off and on and the producer told
Caitlin she could just pretend to have the bowl in her hand because it wasn't necessary
to throw and break it for a rehearsal. The producer told the director not to film all the
rehearsals, but the director did film one of them that was perfect, so they said, "It's late,
let's go with it. Problem was, Caitlin had just pretended to throw a bowl she didn'thave in
her hand! Now, I didn't notice that, why would I, when I watched it through the first time,
as an audience, I assumed what I saw and heard was true and we don't look for mistakes
in things all the time. But when you watch it, she sure does not have a bowl in her hands.
In Fargo, there's a scene where Steve Buscemi falls in the snow and on the bottom of
his boot in white paint is a number and letter combination, A10720K3 for example. It's
the number of the prop boots the costume designer rented for the scene. During filming
she saw it and realized her dept. had not removed it before shooting. But the director
used one of the takes in the final film that had that number on the bottom of the boots!
The person was horrified when she saw it in the finished film. She embarassedly mentioned
it to one of the Coen Brothers. He told her that he liked that take best so used it. He knew
that "mistake" was there, but he didn't want to pay the cost to have it removed, and at that time,
computer technology wasn't as advanced for things like that as now, and also he thought it
was amusing and could live with it.
Same thing happened in the film Rocky when they had a huge banner printed for the film and Rocky's
boxing trunks are painted the wrong color. They noticed it the day of filming, so they had a bit of
dialogue written so Rocky would mention it as if he knew. Some reviewers and fans thought it a
brilliiant little touch of real life that showed Rocky's attention to detail of his boxing ambitions and also
that things weren't going right for him at that moment. But it was just a mistake they corrected
by writing a couple lines of new dialogue. (It was mentioned that nowadays that little quirk of a
scene would not have occurred because they'd just use a color correction computer system to fix it.)
I only mention these examples because a lot of what ends up in a film is there out of sheer
accident. It's not easy to make good OR bad films and the process requires you to just "get it
done" half the time, and use what you have, rather than spend so much time beforehand.
Heath thought of reversing the shirts on the hanger, a brilliant touch, but it was never thought
of ad infinitum beforehand. You just got to hire the best people you can in all departments!
I often am amused at the discussions that take place over things in BBM that really have no
other basis except to say "they are there." Let it be. It is what it is. Sometimes a banana is
just a banana, as Freud put it.
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I heard it was a cigar, but let it be. I also suspect it's an urban legend.
My other friend in the movie biz is a post-production supervisor. I had dinner with him about 3 years ago, the first time I'd seen him since college. And I couldn't wait to talk all the brilliant touches in BBM. Of course, he hadn't seen the movie! Fiddle dee dee.
I did talk to him about the awful continuity problem with the falling peanut jars. He said he was sure Ang et al. did the best they could under the circumstances.
I heard that in Midnight Cowboy the crosswalk moment when Rizzo says "Hey, I'm walkin' here, i'm walkin' here" was spontaneous and unscripted.
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It is irritating that we have to have the it's all right/I'm sorry discussion. The dialog simply should have been clearer.
Like I've said before, everything you hear in a film is there as it was intended to be,
by the filmmakers. Whether it's successful or artisitc or whatever label you want
to use, is another discussion. But the sound is meticulously processed and mixed.
To say the dialogue should've been clearer is not valid if it's what was intended.
And film is a visual medium. What the two are doing and we are seeing and the
tone of what they are saying rather than what is actually said is what's more important.
It REALLY is not important if IT'S ALL RIGHT is said or I'M SORRY (OR BOTH) in the grand
scheme of things in the film, is it?
Sometimes a banana is just a banana.
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LoL! Fargo's boot is like BBM's sideburns.... ::)
And alma jr's mic cord...
And the self-stacking peanut jars...
And the ding ding ding of kurt's trans am
And the rusty "new" truck on joe's front lawn...
Oh dear, our perfect movie has so much wrong!!! ;) :D
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But if it says banana on the subtitles then I want to believe that banana exists,,,, I can't imagine Ang saying, "what? No banana there!" And then telling the distributors to forget about it!
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I heard that in Midnight Cowboy the crosswalk moment when Rizzo says "Hey, I'm walkin' here, i'm walkin' here" was spontaneous and unscripted.
This is true. They had a section of a N.Y. City street barricaded off and on for filming.
The cameras were rolling, but the scene hadn't really begun yet, when a cab driver
had a meltdown moment and was really irritated and just drove through the barricades
as Voight and Hoffman started to cross the street and, in character, that's what Hoffman
came up with. Obviously, the director liked it and left it in--one of those spontaneous things
on a set that happens while film making that add to a film.
Another thought, sometimes actors will vary a scene with every take.
If they did thirty takes, each take might be a little different. The inflections
in dialogue would be varied. They might even say "I'm sorry" in one take
and "It's all right" or "It's alright" in another. The director would choose what
take to use. So asking an actor what they said and why or how they said it,
might be an exercise in futility because they might only remember saying it thirty
different ways!
As for "some" continuity mistakes--most of them we would not notice if we
watched a film only once or twice or even three times. I saw Easter Parade
about twenty times before I noticed one. (I watch it every Spring!) I had
seen BBM about 30 times and never noticed the microphone cord. Who
knows when I might have otherwise, but someone told me about it.
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But if it says banana on the subtitles
Or ground steak
And look what it says when Jack says--?--
"I kinda got a thing goin with a ranch foreman's wife over in Childress..."
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(https://ultimatebrokebackforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ftaxine.com%2Ffullerspicer%2Fjack_cucumber.jpg&hash=a9eb48e96c461008d82cc59e8f48c05afd76cbd9)
jack: cucumber? i don't see no stinkin cucumber!
And on that note, I gotta split! ;)
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Or ground steak
And look what it says when Jack says--?--
"I kinda got a thing goin with a ranch foreman's wife over in Childress..."
Oh yeah. It says onion or something....
:::hangs head in shame:::
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THE KING'S SPEECH Writer: "It's Brokeback Mountain at the Palace."
The oldest winner of the Academy Award for Best Original Screenplay, David Seidler, fresh off his Oscar win for THE KING'S SPEECH, sat down in the George Lucas building at the University of Southern California for a Q&A. His jovial spirit and quick wit made the evening immensely enjoyable. He let us in on a few great secrets of the success of the Best Picture film.
http://cuckookachooanartsreview.blogspot.com/ (http://cuckookachooanartsreview.blogspot.com/)
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LIVE STREAMING
Friday, April 8
11:00 - 12:15 Mountain Time - Beyond Brokeback: The Impact of a Film, A Staged Reading Commemorating the 5th Anniversary of Brokeback Mountain
http://outreach.uwyo.edu/conferences/justice/streaming.htm
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BROKEBACK REVISITED
by Charles Barber
Island in the Sea
Ennis del Mar is a curious name, both Gaelic and Spanish.
When, at the beginning of the film, Ennis introduces himself by first name only, Jack Twist asks, “Your folks stop at Ennis?” His question was deeper than he knew.
Ennis, an Irish variant of Innis, means ‘island’, and carries a connotation of ‘only choice’. In Spanish, del Mar means ‘of the sea’. Island in the Sea is as close an eponym as could be imagined, opening one of the most moving and influential pictures of our time.
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I will arise and go now, and go to Innisfree,
And a small cabin build there… And live alone in the bee-loud glade.
I will arise and go now, for always night and day
I hear the water lapping with low sounds by the shore;
While I stand on the roadway, or on the pavements gray,
I hear it in the deep heart's core.
William Butler Yeats
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Brokeback Mountain, based on a 1997 New Yorker story by Annie Proulx, became a film that leapt from box office hit to cultural monitor to cinema classic, all in four years. The death at age 28 of its Australian star, Heath Ledger, like the death of James Dean before him, has fixed a lasting place in American culture. The film itself continues to be watched and studied and felt. Americans understand cowboys, although here the genre of the Western is both affirmed and subverted. Brokeback followed many films, but was the first of its kind.
There are reasons for its power.
One of the film’s most arresting images sees Ennis alone, at the end of their first summer, on his knees at the confessional rough wall of an alley. Jack, brilliantly portrayed by Jake Gyllenhaal, has left him. Vomiting, punching, crying, resisting, his guts pulled like Prometheus, Ennis yells, “What the fuck you lookin’ at?” when a stranger witnesses his agony.
The next scene moves Ennis to a church. He is marrying Alma. What he confessed in that agony he will never reveal to his wife. Ennis says, “I do”, to the wrong person. No one is there to contest his false declaration. The only person who might lacks the words, and lives a thousand miles away, and four years in the future.
Four years later, having tested the waters with a small postcard, Jack drives up to the del Mar family home, three sparse rooms above a laundry in Wyoming. Ennis, chain-smoking and pacing all day, finally sees Jack arrive. He bounds down the stairs, grabs him in a furious embrace and shoves him hard against another wall, driving kiss into kiss. Jack spins him around and multiplies his own violent longing and regret.
They do not know they have a witness. Ennis’ wife, played by Michelle Williams, has gone to the door. She knows what she has seen, and her face registers a shattering, a horror, an impossible admission. Her tragedy has been launched. Nothing will ever be right again.
For all of their frightened desire, Ennis and Jack had begun their lives unable to hear one another.
“Ennis.”
“Your folks stop at Ennis?”
“DEL Mar”, he replied with sullen emphasis.
“Nice to meet you, Ennis del MAR”, Jack said, having missed the rhythm and, from the outset, Ennis’ inability to define and even to name himself. Their relationship will, for twenty years, be riddled with such incapacity. Small, it begins.
Unsurprisingly, the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences is a confused barometer. Its Best Picture has frequently been given to the wrong film. In 1941, Citizen Kane lost to How Green Was My Valley. In 1952, High Noon lost to The Greatest Show on Earth. In 1964 Dr Strangelove to My Fair Lady and, in 2005, Brokeback Mountain to Crash.
Claiming to be at the leading edge of popular culture, with pretensions to high art, members of the Academy regularly fail to recognize what they have before them.
In 2006, when presenter Jack Nicholson opened the envelope, his gasp was audible. Arguably, the Best Film had been rejected. Since the Academy Awards were invented, 80 films won have won Best Picture; 59 of those also won Best Director. Since 1990, the exceptions have been even more rare: only four won Best Picture as a stand-alone. One of them was Crash, in the year Ang Lee won Best Director for Brokeback Mountain.
Many believe this happened because it was derided as ‘the gay cowboy movie’. At film festivals around the world, Brokeback Mountain had won more Best Director and Best Picture prizes than Titanic and Schindler’s List combined. Although “the most honored film ever made”, with 71 major awards and another 52 nominations in its portfolio, the slur had force.
Its advocates claim it the most deeply, intuitively knowledgeable film ever made about the gay experience in America. Curiously, its creative team and on screen stars were entirely straight. There had never been a film like Brokeback Mountain, and its effects are still rippling across American consciousness. Much of the debate about gay marriage has, in tandem with the tragedies of Matthew Shepard and Brandon Teena, been driven by the cultural enterprise of this story.
The facts are plain enough. At its debut in December 2005, playing in only five US theaters, Brokeback achieved the highest per-screen gross of any non-animated movie in history. By the end of its broad release, it ranked number eight among the highest-grossing romantic dramas of all time. Its theatrical run lasted 133 days, earning $83 million in the US and Canada, and another $97 million abroad. Subsequent DVD and CD sales hit $31 million.
Brokeback’s success led to parody, to thousands of jokes and a new lexicon of insult. It appeared in cartoons, on T-shirts, crossword puzzles, and every late night television program in the nation – and most of the daytime chat shows. Brokeback to the Future, a satirical movie trailer fusing elements of two films, posited a curious relationship between Doc Brown and Marty McFly. It has been watched on YouTube more than 5.4 million times. There are thousands of similar parodies online, from Top Gun: Brokeback Squadron to Brokeback Pirates of the Caribbean, to dozens of takeoffs from the Star Trek series, and ranging from Brokeback by the Bell to Brokeback Mountain – The Christian Edition, which concluded that, “The only man for another man to love is Jesus”. The most-honored film in history may also have been the most satirized. Impact is measured in many forms.
America’s longest-running entertainment series, The Simpsons, featured an unlikely friendship between Bart and Nelson. It ended with Bart upstairs tearily embracing two vests on a hanger, with a solo guitar in the background, and saying, “But I’ll never forget the week we were best friends.”
Seen below and through a window, Nelson replies, “Ha ha. I touched your heart.”
From Saturday Night Live to Youtube, from Oprah to Ellen to Larry King, to copycat posters featuring Bush and Cheney on the cover of The New Yorker, or Obama and Biden, or Tom DeLay and Jack Abramoff, or Skeletor and He-Man, to numerous scholarly papers, college courses, seven books (not including Annie Proulx’ Wyoming Stories) and more, it has entered our culture. So too its most famous dialogue.
“I wish I knew how to quit you” now ranks with “Frankly, my dear, I don’t give a damn”. And “Jack, I swear…” matches the potent ambiguity of “Rosebud…”
The impact of this film has even been acknowledged by those who truly configure our culture: professional athletes.
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We call this a Brokeback Mountain game, because there’s so much penetration and kickouts. It was one of those games.
LA Lakers coach Phil Jackson, November 2007, on a 107-92 loss to the San Antonio Spurs
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And it reached international politics in a way rarely seen before.
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There is a 'Brokeback Mountain' in each and every one of us...It motivates us...to understand all of us are bound to make difficult decisions in life, yet we must strive to dispel prejudice...and seek ways to reconcile and cooperate with one another…
Chen Shui-bian, President of Taiwan, addressing US business leaders, February 2006
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The film’s success also led from low comedy to high art. Commissioned by Gerard Mortier for New York City Opera, composer Charles Wuorinen is writing an opera. Annie Proulx has written its libretto. Ennis will be sung by a bass-baritone, and Jack by a tenor. The work will revert to its original intimate, spare eloquence, and (with Mortier’s departure from New York) be premiered at the Teatro Real in Madrid in the fall of 2013. A chamber opera version is planned for City Opera Vancouver the following year.
Brokeback Mountain is a tale of two people, Ennis in particular, more terrified of social reaction than fulfilled by private desire. Meeting in 1963, these men were frustrated and charted by fear. In their lives not a wisp of power rose to protect them. Dreams were deferred, again and again, for twenty years.
Ennis told Jack a story of two “tough old birds ranched up together”, and murdered for their relationship, perhaps by Ennis’ own father. Its memory etched, haunted, and thereafter shut him down. Until he met Jack.
The story of Jack and Ennis’ loving, desperate tragedy has become engine to a nation-defining debate. What is love permitted to be? Who is permitted to own it? What constitutes the natural space between men? And in our time, unthinkable to Jack and Ennis in theirs, what constitutes marriage? Who decides?
Because of its unique crossover appeal, and its vast audience in the straight community, it may be that Brokeback Mountain helped de-legitimize homophobia. More than any other expression of popular culture, it helped lead the nation into a set of choices about equality. Here, a ‘gay’ story could be understood by the dominant culture. That culture sympathized, and wept. The triangular liberation of blacks and of women from stereotype and humiliation may have been made symbolic, inevitable and complete by a simple story about two men who discovered one another, in the dark, on a mountain in Wyoming.
Gay marriage has been permitted or enacted in Connecticut, Iowa, Massachussetts, New Hampshire, and Vermont. Authority has been requested by the District of Columbia. It has been endorsed by the Governor of New York.
It was, for six months, recognized by California. In May 2008, its Supreme Court ruled that denial of marriage to gay citizens offended the equal protection clause of the state Constitution. (The majority of Justices were Republican appointees.) Some 18,000 gay couples were lawfully married thereafter.
But this provoked widespread reaction, led chiefly by Mormon, Catholic and evangelical forces. They placed on the ballot Proposition 8, to amend the state constitution. Together with the New England tradition of town meetings and communal decision, California has the most direct democracy in the nation. Its system of initiative, recall and referendum has enacted Proposition 13, severely restricting property taxes, and Proposition 140, limiting terms in office of elected persons. California has been outrider to the nation in many trends.
Now Proposition 8 would – if successful -- amend the state Constitution to forbid gay marriage, effectively overturning the Court.
Its opponents began by thinking they would win. Most polls confirmed this view. The remarkable cultural acceptance implied by Brokeback Mountain, by the coming out of numerous gay celebrities, and by recent history, led the anti-8 forces to believe in their triumph. This was California, after all. The Briggs Initiative of 1978 would have forbidden employment of gay and lesbian teachers. Briggs was endorsed by Anita Bryant, finally opposed by Governor Reagan, and failed miserably at the ballot.
‘No on 8’ raised $43 million, while ‘Yes on 8’ just $40 million. Curiously, 45% of the ‘Yes’ out-of-state money came from only one state, Utah. But ‘Yes on 8’ spent their money more effectively. Their TV ads were focused, and many of them featured San Francisco Mayor Gavin Newsom’s gleeful cry, “This door’s wide open now. It’s gonna happen, whether you like it or not.” This mortified and energized proponents. So too did Newsom’s decision to officiate at a marriage of two lesbian teachers, witnessed by their elementary school students, all of whom were given the day off in order to attend. It was a PR disaster, happening in the most gay-friendly city in America.
Meantime, right-wing religious groups and traditional black and Hispanic preachers targeted their own assemblies and pulled a massive vote. Mormon and other proselytizers flooded the state and pulled theirs.
The phenomenon of Brokeback was exploited by both sides. For the ‘Yes’, it was proof of a continuing slide into permissive degeneracy, liberal values, European secularism, and the inevitable destruction of the traditional family. For the ‘No’, the success of Brokeback was taken to presage the success of their campaign.
‘No on 8’ did try to turn the religious tables. They released a filmed reading from Corinthians, Love Poem, and attracted several hundred thousand viewers. Too late.
On November 4, the measure passed. 52% (or 7 million electors) voted yes; almost 48% voted no. The California Supreme Court soon upheld the validity of this new constitutional amendment, but ruled that the 18,000 marriages performed in the brief window prior remained valid.
Overturning Proposition 8 on constitutional grounds is now being pursued in federal court by a most unlikely alliance: the conservative Ted Olson and the liberal David Boies. These attorneys were on opposite sides in Bush v Gore at the US Supreme Court. Today, they are together in seeking to have 8 ruled unconstitutional. Certified for trial, and naming both Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger and Attorney-General Jerry Brown as defendants (they too will be filing briefs favoring the override of 8), their suit’s first hearing will be held in January 2010. In a case that will almost certainly move to the highest court, a favorable outcome will make all other rulings moot. Olson, a renowned conservative lawyer, has found – to the amazement of many of his friends and colleagues – no merit in the denial of gay marriage rights at a state or national level. Equal protection applies equally.
For conservatives who don’t like what I’m doing, it’s, ‘If he just had someone in his family we’d forgive him,’ ” Mr. Olson said. “For liberals it’s such a freakish thing that it’s, ‘He must have someone in his family, otherwise a conservative couldn’t possibly have these views.’ It’s frustrating that people won’t take it on face value.
-- New York Times, 18 August 2009
What impact did Brokeback actually have on our cultural sensibility, these reflections, these politics? Both vast and intimate, it would seem.
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That could have been my life… Where I live, you can’t really go out and be yourself. You couldn’t go out together, two guys, as a couple and ever be accepted.
Derrick Glover, 33, rancher in Jackson, Wyoming
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In the fortress that is the Mormon Church, there is now open dissent.
Several LDS members openly contested the Church’s official views on marriage equality, and denounced a widely circulated pamphlet. One distinguished Mormon lawyer, Morris A Thurston, trained at BYU and Harvard Law, rebutted in a long public article each of the principal objections to gay marriage. He concluded, “In summary, the arguments used in 'Six Consequences ... If Proposition 8 Fails' are false, misleading, and based on faulty logic. Almost every legal case alluded to is misrepresented. The passage or failure of Proposition 8 will not affect any of the scenarios posed by this document; all of the so‐called ‘adverse consequences’ are illusory.” Thurston and his wife remain active members of the LDS Church.
Gay and lesbian Mormons have established groups that search for compatibility between faith and identification. A number reference Brokeback as a personal starting point, a recognition of self. Many echo the solemn absurdity of Ennis and Jack after their first night together:
“You know I ain’t queer.”
“Me neither.”
Mormon bloggers move from ‘I’m not effeminate. I work on a farm, I was raised right, but…’ to “Brokeback Mountain changed my life in that it allowed me to come out of the closet in a way that is very vast and very all encompassing. That story (in many respects) is the story of my life… I am extremely grateful to God that I have been able to step outside of the dogmatic teachings regarding homosexuality found in my Church (the LDS church) and look at people without the typical judgment that I used to...
“In a very powerful sense Brokeback Mountain is like a day in court for everyone who views the film. The movie is not on trial here but the audience definitely is on trial… the movie has changed thousands of lives for the better including my own and I have seen it change many heterosexual peoples lives for the better as well. I saw hundreds of people around me (the vast majority of them straight) in tears at the premiere… I have since heard and read countless testimonies of how this film has changed lives and brought people together in understanding and love… I see Christ in this story and I see His love triumph over all in spite of the tragedies that permeate the story. The ending ‘Jack I swear’ is about enduring and everlasting love that can never be broken no matter what.”
Some Mormons are moving at other levels as well. There is even a new nomenclature: gamofites, a whimsical reference well understood by church members. These GAy MOrmon Fathers claim over 200 members. A website, ‘Gay Mormon Stories’, offers autobiographies. The organization at www.equalityutah.org addresses their Mormon leaders, and encourages them to apply Mormon principles to their own gay minority.
LDSapology.org posts the names of homosexual Mormons who have taken their own lives. Such sites as www.gaylds.net direct readers to a network of support and mutual aid. Same sex kiss-ins have been held in Salt Lake City at the Temple. Each event has been both contested and supported by self-declared Mormons. Typically, younger Mormons are much more open to the proposition that the LDS family must include its gay members. In November 2009, in an historic first and after a series of private meetings with gay Mormon leaders, the Church formally endorsed a pair of Salt Lake City ordinances forbidding discrimination against gay citizens in employment and housing.
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LDS Hymn No. 219, Because I Have Been Given Much, as amended by Affirmation, an assembly of gay Mormons.
Because I've been mistreated and misunderstood,
And told I was unworthy and I was no good,
I had to find my peace of mind,
Among the Saints of my own kind,
We will follow Jesus our own way.
Because I am child of God, I do belong
To his great fa-mi-ly, though some would me disown.
No man can limit God's great love,
It comes down from heaven above,
Upon his gay children like a dove.
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When the Mormons are changing, the nation has been changing for quite awhile.
For more than a half-century, game shows like Queen for a Day, The Price is Right, Beat the Clock, and Let’s Make A Deal have drawn enormous audiences. They share some attributes with the quiz shows, the advice doctors, and ‘reality programming’, but game show audiences have always been the least exotic, the most hopeful, the most American.
Game shows reflect economic circumstance, public compassion and goodwill, generosity and humor and acquisitiveness, and our mid-road, mid-speed, mid-age selves. In the 1950s, their contestants and audiences were overwhelmingly middle class and white. Queen for a Day specialized in tear-jerker endings, with a coda of coronation set to the tune of Pomp and Circumstance. Hokey, yes. Affecting, certainly. It’s who we were in the Eisenhower era.
In the mid-60s, game shows made efforts to include military personnel and their families. They abandoned the practice when the Viet Nam war lost all public support. Soon, their audiences and contestants looked vaguely like hippies, or disco dancers. Come the first Gulf War a pro-military stance resumed, but now its face was changing. For the first time, legitimized by military service, mixed-race couples were seen together. Soon it was a commonplace, and a proof. No one said anything, but everyone noticed. America was growing up, the boomer generation was in charge, race mattered less, multi-racial families also jumped up and down in exuberant group hugs, and the barometer was reading different weather.
In late January 2009 a contestant named Robert appeared on Wheel of Fortune. This program is the longest-running syndicated game show in US history. Wheel reaches a daily audience of 16 million. Of these, 12 million are in the 18-49 demographic so sought by advertisers.
During the introductions Robert indicated that, “I’m engaged to a wonderful person.” In his mid-30s, a bit bulky, dressed in suburban sweaters and glasses, Robert did very well. In the first part of the show he earned almost $14,000. In the final round, on the basis of surprisingly little information, he correctly deduced that the answer was ‘Mixed Singles’, a weirdly prophetic answer. It earned him another $40,000.
As he has done for years, host Pat Sajak noted that, “… somebody broke through our security line. Who is that?”
Robert answered, quite ordinarily, “That’s my fiancé, Chuck.”
Sajak was nonplused, moved aside in his usual way and said, “Oh, here he comes. I should leave.” Chuck, also wearing a sweater not out of place at a Rotary meeting, came on stage, embraced Robert, and the audience applauded.
But there would be more.
At the end of an episode broadcast just two weeks later, Sajak and Vanna White stood alone on the stage. Something unusual had happened. Only Sajak spoke.
“Between the time that we taped this show and we aired it tonight, we lost our dear friend Alan Mills,” he said. “Alan officially took care of my wardrobe on the show, unofficially took care of all of us. He was the kindest, gentlest soul you’d ever want to meet. To his family, to his circle of friends, to the love of his life Ivan, our sympathies. We’re very sad here.” Sajak clutched a handkerchief and turned it in his hands. “Goodbye, Alan. We love you.”
Sajak has long been understood to be a conservative Republican, and once criticized Rosie O’Donnell for the manner of her coming out. But Alan Mills was his friend, and that made all the difference. Two months later, Iowa became the third state to allow marriage equality. In June, New Hampshire became the sixth. The themes of Brokeback were advancing.
And along came Adam Lambert. He would embark on a strategy no one had seen before. In some ways, it paralleled the roll-out of Brokeback Mountain just four years earlier.
Lambert stands about 6’1”, with broad shoulders, a dazzling voice, a stage presence far beyond charisma, black nail polish, and a strong background in music theatre. But he would later tell Rolling Stone that he was tired of a career going nowhere. At the Burning Man Festival, inspired by “certain funguses”, he decided on a Hail Mary pass. At age 27 he auditioned for American Idol.
He had been raised in San Diego, and early on made it clear whom he would be. He liked playing dress-up, wearing a cape in front of a mirror, lip-synching his favorite songs. Said his mother Leila, “The box with the Halloween costumes stayed out all year.” Said his father Eber, “Sports? Not so much.”
He was soon taking the leads in plays and musicals, and developing a remarkable voice: seamless, pitch-perfect, and without apparent limitation. There is a YouTube recording of Lambert singing Come To Me, Bend to Me in which he induces two held notes, the second even longer than the first. Try holding your breath for the same duration that Lambert sings those notes. You will find it quite difficult. Lambert does not.
In July 2008 he drove to San Francisco and made it into Idol’s Top 36. He was soon in the Top 13, and moved into the Bel Air mansion rented by the show’s producers for its finalists. Once on-air, Lambert amazed audiences and judges alike by the overpowering breadth and audacity of his talent: from Black or White to Born to be Wild, from a performance of Ring of Fire that sounded like a Moroccan wedding incantation, to a version of Mad World that mesmerized the judges into silence – it drew an audience of millions, week after week, wondering what on earth Adam Lambert would do next, and how he would dress, and what he would imagine. American Idol had never seen anyone like him.
Only the most naïve or self-deluded missed the obvious. Judging from blog traffic, with entries in the hundreds of thousands generated mostly by women, no one cared. Bizarre crushes from self-professed cougars appeared beside careful examination of Lambert’s unorthodox musical choices. The elephant in the room was pink, and everyone backstage knew it. Even when revealing photos of Lambert making out with another man appeared, he kept rolling up the votes. And kept silent.
Then, as happened to Brokeback Mountain, something shocking. At the final vote, Lambert placed second to Kris Allen, a church music leader from Arkansas. Even Allen, gentle and truthful to a fault, thought that his friend Adam should have won. But Lambert appeared exhilarated by the result. He had made it to the end, and the world had noticed. A short while later he revealed the biggest non-secret of the year: “I don’t think it should be a surprise for anyone to hear that I’m gay.” In September, his name made it into The New York Times crossword.
Lambert has taken a well-calculated gamble. When such stars as George Michael, Ellen Degeneres, Melissa Etheridge and Lance Bass came out, it was after years of public success and private discretion. Rock Hudson, Johnny Mathis and Raymond Burr never came out at all. In their day? Impossible. For Elton John? Clay Aitken? Difficult. For Adam Lambert? He knows what his predecessors never knew.
Demographics have changed the debate. Young people are growing up with openly gay friends, and teachers, and models. To them it’s just one more fact of life, like blue eyes or green hair. A recent New York Times / CBS national poll tells the story: just 31% of respondents over the age of 40 support gay marriage. Under 40? A very different result: 57% support it.
Courage has changed the debate. In June of 1969, New York drag queens fought the police at the Stonewall Inn. Although the police were actually after its Mafia operators, urban legend carried the day and a modern gay rights movement was born. In July of 2009, after police raided the Rainbow Lounge in Fort Worth, Texas, the Mayor of that city publicly apologized for it.
Death has changed the debate. AIDS disfigured everything and, in time, everybody. After a murderously slow and cruel start, the American response to AIDS finally became a powerful engine of decency and research and care. The AIDS quilt startled in its national memory. Larry Kramer, ActUp, and countless militants applied a pepper spray to every debate and priority. Ryan White, an “innocent” victim, allowed a transition from fear to kindness.
And a murder changed the debate. The 1998 killing of Matthew Shepard in Wyoming touched millions. Left to die – slowly, on barbed wire -- the 21-year old suffered. The sheriff’s report observed that Shepard’s face was covered in blood and dirt, “except for the path left by his tears.”
Homophobia was becoming a spent force. Certain jokes were no longer funny, except at the expense of Family Values televangelists enjoying massages, and US Senators caught playing footsy with undercover cops.
And then came Brokeback Mountain. As with Adam Lambert, there was a gay sub-text from the beginning. But each insisted upon its real identity. Lambert is a stunning entertainer who happens to be gay. The short story, and the film, are about love. Not gay cowboys. Only love. Anguished, self-denying, frightened -- but love more magnetic than any other human emotion. And in the film, America could see itself.
We have always lived in conflict about this subject.
There are no homosexuals. There are only homosexual acts.
Gore Vidal
We see ancient Greece and Rome as cultural and civic fountains. Not altogether accurately, we see their Golden Ages as permissive. We read stories about Hadrian and Antinous, Achilles and Patroclus, Alexander and Hephaestion, the Sacred Band of Theban warriors, Julius Caesar and Nicomedes. Socrates was put to death for corrupting youth, whatever that really meant.
In the Bible, David had Jonathan. In the Elizabethan Age, Christopher Marlowe was shockingly open about the company he kept, King James I was almost certainly homosexual, and Shakespeare’s “Mr W.H.” inspired as brilliant a poetry of love as we know. Harold Bloom argues that Shakespeare was bisexual, and so accounts for much of Shakespeare’s unique sensibility toward the hearts of women and men.
Tchaikovsky was burdened and hyper-creative. Walt Whitman lived more modestly. Tennyson adduced his love for Arthur Hallam, and AE Houseman for young men generally. Gertrude Stein and Alice B were able to pass themselves off as eccentrics. And such artists as Bernstein and Sondheim, Baldwin, Britten and Pears, Barber and Menotti, Auden and Spender and Isherwood, Nijinsky and Nureyev, Horowitz and Richter, through the sheer weight of their genius, came to make homosexuality respectable – at least among creative forces. Especially in the performing arts, by the late 20th C it was all pretty much open – except for the fearsome price paid by Liberace, Rock Hudson, Michael Bennett, Mark Leslie, Anthony Perkins and ten thousand others, killed by a disease no one saw coming.
Law was, by its nature, slow to adjust. As recently as Bowers vs Hardwick in 1986 the US Supreme Court found nothing in our Constitution that “would extend a fundamental right to homosexuals to engage in acts of consensual sodomy.” Few asked why heterosexuals engaged in identical acts were exempt. But by 2003, in Lawrence v Texas, the Court reversed itself, holding that rights of privacy and due process included every citizen, even gays in the sanctity of their own homes.
The example of two nations most like our own is instructive. Canada got the jump long before, when Justice Minister Pierre Elliott Trudeau famously proclaimed in 1967 that “the state has no business in the bedrooms of the nation”, and abolished all laws regulating consensual sex between adults. In Britain, the Wolfenden Report a decade earlier reached the same conclusion, and laws that imprisoned Oscar Wilde began falling.
By the end of the 20th C, gays in Canada served openly in the military, and in the Royal Canadian Mounted Police. Two male Mounties were married by their commanding officer, and honored by their fellow Mounties with the traditional raised sword salute. Gay marriage has been legal in Canada for years, and gay divorce, too. It seems to have impacted straight marriage not in the least. So too in Norway, Spain, South Africa, the Netherlands, Belgium, and Sweden.
Nothing has come so easily to us, although Hollywood has always encoded our secrets. Monty Wooley, Charles Laughton, Greta Garbo, Ethel Merman, Roddy McDowell, and dozens of others found ways to tell their stories without the penalty of explicitness.
Brokeback Mountain didn’t come out of nowhere.
Tom Hanks in Philadelphia (1993), Al Pacino in Cruising (1980) and Dog Day Afternoon (1975), Greg Kinnear in As Good as It Gets (1997), Paul Rudd in The Object of My Affection (1998), and television’s Queer as Folk (2000-2005) all addressed gay issues, with varying degrees of respect. Simon Callow’s death in Four Weddings and a Funeral (1994) and the reading of Auden’s Funeral Blues that followed created profound sympathy for the loss of a jovially sympathetic character. Contrary to conservative paranoia, Hollywood rarely sets agendas. It lives in the rear view mirror.
Even after the Hayes Code, gay messages continued entering the moving picture. Consider Martin Landau’s 1959 turn as ‘Leonard’ (he has no last name), a servant to James Mason in Hitchcock’s North by Northwest.
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James Mason (Phillip Vandamm): You seem to be trying to fill mine with rotten apples.
Martin Landau (Leonard): Sometimes the truth does taste like a mouthful of worms.
Vandamm: Truth? I've heard nothing but innuendos.
Leonard: Call it my woman's intuition, if you will. But I've never trusted neatness.
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And Brokeback Mountain saw resistance. It was banned, or censored, in India, Italy, the Bahamas, in Poulsbo Washington (population 8800), in China, the United Arab Emirates, Lebanon, and in Sandy, Utah by Utah Jazz and theatre owner Larry H Miller. It was attacked by numerous right-wing commentators for advancing “Hollywood’s homosexual agenda”, although noted conservative Michael Medved praised its artistic content. It was attacked by Fox News, and Bill O’Reilly devoted nine programs to its offensiveness. Even NBC’s Gene Shalit got into the act, without mentioning that his own son Peter is gay.
Rush Limbaugh referred to the film as “Bareback Mountain” and “Humpback Mountain.” Don Imus, in between firings, labeled the film "Fudgepack Mountain". It is not clear that either had actually seen the film.
Brokeback had by no means an easy romp to public acclaim. But it earned an influence that could not be denied. Much of that influence had to do with the evolving nature of social and private relationships.With one-tenth of the Union now granting marriage equality, tremendous problems are raised by Interstate Commerce law.
The Constitution declares that citizens do not lose rights when crossing a state line. Specifically, “Full Faith and Credit shall be given in each State to the public Acts, Records and judicial Proceedings of every other State. And the Congress may by general laws prescribe the manner in which such Acts, Records and Proceedings shall be proved and the Effect thereof. U.S. Const., Article IV.” A recognized marriage is, of course, a ‘public Act’The US Supreme Court has already ruled in principle. In Magnolium Petrolem v Hunt, 1943, the Court held that “the Full Faith and Credit Clause altered the status of the several states as independent foreign sovereignties, each free to ignore rights and obligations created under the laws or established by the judicial proceedings of the others, by making each an integral part of a single nation, in which rights judicially established in any part are given nation-wide application.”
This poses terrible problems for politicians, and issues of marriage equality unforeseen by the Framers. Since Brokeback Mountain, it has also posed queries not ordinarily heard at Presidential events. During a press conference held at Kansas State University in early 2006, President George W Bush was asked an unusual question.
"You're a rancher," a young man in the crowd of thousands said. "A lot of us here in Kansas are ranchers. I was just wanting to get your opinion on Brokeback Mountain, if you've seen it yet."
As the crowd erupted in knowing laughter, President Bush hesitated. "I haven't seen it. I'll be glad to talk about ranching, but I haven't seen the movie."
The young questioner would not be dissuaded. "You would love it," he told Bush. "You should check it out."
"I've heard about it," the president admitted. "I hope you go – you know."
Today, President Obama promises a timed repeal of “Don’t ask, don’t tell”, a policy considered progressive when introduced by President Clinton in 1993. He also promises unspecified action erasing the ‘Defence of Marriage Act’, a last sputtering of institutional homophobia that became law three years later. It passed with overwhelming support. But times have changed, and this law stands susceptible of repeal.
Today President Obama makes jokes, telling a White House correspondents’ dinner that he and his long-time political partner, David Axelrod, were going to Iowa “to make it official.” Such humor would have been unthinkable pre-Brokeback.
In March 1977, a mid-level White House official met privately with a few gay leaders, on a Saturday, when President Carter was safely out of town. Nonetheless, it was a first.
In June 2009, another. President Obama met with 300 national gay leaders in the East Room. They heard him declare, “Welcome to your White House. It’s good to see so many friends and familiar faces… We seek an America in which no one feels the pain of discrimination based on who you are, or who you love.” He introduced the parents of Matthew Shepard, and promised that a federal hate crimes act would be named for their son. The event was covered nationally, and followed by a similar Presidential address in October.
It’s a safe bet that most lawmakers considering these measures, at state and federal levels, watched Brokeback Mountain. Its cross-over appeal was enormous, and its critical reception almost unanimous in praise. Our most esteemed actors gave it special regard.
Daniel Day-Lewis, when receiving his own Screen Actor’s Guild award shortly after Heath Ledger’s passing, said, “He was unique. He was perfect… that scene in the trailer at the end of the film is as moving as anything I think I’ve ever seen.”And so it went for millions of Americans who saw Brokeback Mountain. It cannot be proven, of course, but it is likely the vast majority of its viewers were heterosexual. What they saw and felt is what has lasted.
They saw two people who never expected to fall in love, and lacked the language to comprehend it. At the close of their first summer, Jack and Ennis engaged in a sudden and shocking act of violence. It was the only way they knew to absolve themselves. After four years they re-united, but were afraid of living with the consequences of love. And after twenty years they were broken by murder, with Ennis left alone to regret and to swear love to a ghost. We all know these failures and these tight-lipped fears. They belong to us.
We saw two actors ignite and implode, willing to fulfill their roles and cinematic obligations to the limit. Both were initially awkward. The most intimate scenes were difficult. Heath Ledger finally took the view that “I wasn’t kissing the butt of a mule. I was kissing a human being with a soul”, and found a way, tight-lipped and self-controlled beyond reason, into his character. Jake Gyllenhaal, playing the more joyous, self-aware and open of the pair, found his way through buoyancy, a sometime rejection of fear, and a unique vulnerability. Each performance was hailed as magnificent, unsettling, life-changing, masterful. Both earned Oscar nominations.
We heard music enchant. Gustavo Santaolla’s evocative, simple and eloquent score, using guitar, pedal steel guitar, pump organ, and cadences that never quite resolved, created a lonely and distant place. He earned a Best Score Oscar and, joined by the likes of Willie Nelson, Rufus Wainwright, and Emmylou Harris, created an aural world that reflected and revealed an intimate inner world improbably set in vast mountains. The paradox was stunning. Every audience could hear, deeply, into every note.
And we saw mountains and water convey a moral force without judgment. Neither social outcast nor social order was defined. In places of such natural beauty, all loves are natural and desirable. How could these men have refused one another? Their urban lives were – for Jack – prosperous and false. For Ennis -- dry and desiccated. Only in the mountains, in the turning natural order, could they find faith. Cinematographer Rodrigo Prieto captured his Oscar nomination by capturing these vast and breaking vistas, from very far and from immediately in the face of things.
We heard a screenplay expand a story, moving from its laconic tautness to a natural and parallel universe, and saw Diane Ossana and Larry McMurtry win Best Adapted Screenplay at the Oscars. No wonder. Not a beat was missed, not an argument dropped. It may have been the most seamless, tightly codified and incontestably human adaptation of original material in recent Academy history. Every expansion must have had a joint somewhere, but this could not be discerned. They created a wholly separate and equally viable work of art. This was part of the film’s astonishment, and enchantment. It explains the recurring phenomenon of audiences sitting wet-eyed at the end, unwilling to leave, too hurt to move, sobbing, in theatre after theatre across America. In a gesture of unusual and immense respect, many theatre managers left the lights down long after the final credits had passed. They understood that no one was able to leave.
And at the end, most audiences witnessed themselves. For perhaps the first time ever, they identified with inchoate, inarticulate, self-bound, other-desiring gay men who had no words, no context, no armament to defend against what they knew to be true.
Many reasons account for the staggering emotional power of Brokeback Mountain. Many social and political tides have turned in consequence of its mass appeal, its fortuitous timing, its artistic power, its national mirror. At the end, those reasons are found in the simplicity of two shirts.
When Ennis discovers them in his friend’s childhood room, Jack's shirt is visible on the outside, with his own tucked inside it. They share a single hanger. In the film’s final scene, after Ennis has taken them home, they are reversed. Jack's shirt is now inside Ennis'. The protected is now the protector. Love has its place after all.
In one last unspoiled wilderness two men came upon one another, and could not find home, save in brief and furtive and secret passages where they might be safe, and alone. Desire never abated. Courage never triumphed. And at the end, there was “Never enough time. Never enough”.
Today, there is. The film has remained with us for years. No wonder. All wonder.
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Reprinted with permission by the author
Charles Barber holds masters’ and doctoral degrees in music from Stanford University, and is author of the forthcoming ‘Corresponding With Carlos: A Biography of Carlos Kleiber’, published by Rowman & Littlefield.
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Thanks, John!
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BROKEBACK REVISITED
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The full essay can be found on Facebook:
http://www.facebook.com/#!/group.php?gid=106920932680513&v=app_2373072738 (http://www.facebook.com/#!/group.php?gid=106920932680513&v=app_2373072738)
Thanks for pointing out yet another BBM group on FB, John.
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Perhaps it's closed, though? It just defaults to the home page for me.
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Perhaps it's closed, though? It just defaults to the home page for me.
I just checked. I have no problem with the link, Fritz. It opens up to the page "Brokeback Revisited".
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Well, I went the old-fashioned route and searched for the page, and joined that way.
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Well, I went the old-fashioned route and searched for the page, and joined that way.
I don't know how to search for pages on FB...... :">
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I don't know how to search for pages on FB...... :">
Way up top, there's the title "facebook" on the upper left, then three icons for messages and such, then a line for search, then the words "home profile account". If you type a name of a page on the search line, it should find it, or something similar.
Or perhaps the pages are organized differently in other countries? I'm afraid I don't know.
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Way up top, there's the title "facebook" on the upper left, then three icons for messages and such, then a line for search, then the words "home profile account". If you type a name of a page on the search line, it should find it, or something similar.
Or perhaps the pages are organized differently in other countries? I'm afraid I don't know.
Oh wow, yes, you're right!
I never noticed that.... ::) ::) (no comments from anyone please, about how observant I am.... ::))
Thanks for showing me, Fritz!!!
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You're most welcome, Körkompis! :-* :-* :-*
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I might repost that article when I get a formatted copy from the author. I did cut and paste off of FB
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It's really good, John!
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"From "Brokeback Mountain" to "Beyond Brokeback" -- the long life of a short story
by Michael Shay of Wyoming Arts Council
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On Friday, as I drove the pass back to Cheyenne, I thought about the impact and mystery of the arts. I had just seen a staged reading of “Beyond Brokeback” at the Shepard Symposium for Social Justice at UW. “Beyond Brokeback” is another chapter in the story of “Brokeback Mountain,” a short story written by Wyoming writer Annie Proulx back in the last century. She wrote it in the mid-1990s and it made its debut in the The New Yorker magazine in 1997. It was in Proulx’s 1999 collection Close Range: Wyoming Stories. The first edition of the book featured illustrations by renowned Western artist William Matthews. A signed copy is worth a lot, I’m told by eBay.
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These were the voices of real people shaped by the art of a writer and told by actors and teachers and singers. They transformed the work. And it lives on.
What can be made of this long history of this short story turned script turned movie turned web site turned book turned script turned stage performance? It’s miraculous how one creative work can beget so many other creative works. The movie received most of the attention. But the saga now is entering another phase.
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full article:
http://hummingbirdminds.blogspot.com/2011/04/from-brokeback-mountain-to-beyond.html (http://hummingbirdminds.blogspot.com/2011/04/from-brokeback-mountain-to-beyond.html)
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It would be really great if people could reply to the article on the blog. Michael Shay is on the Wyoming Arts Council and is a great guy and a good friend of Greg Hinton.
As you can see, he loved the performance.
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Question from David Mixner:
Great hearing from you and glad to be in touch. The work you have done is amazing. Is there a site where I can pick up real stories of love in the wild west or what it was like in the 'gay west'? Would love to explore it more on my blog.
Any ideas?
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The book "FARM BOYS. Lives of Gay Men From the Rural Midwest" by Will Fellows might be a good start.
It'a a collection of coming-of-age stories from men ranging from 84 to 24.
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I don't think of what you are talking about as discrepancies. After all, screenplays are blueprints for a
film and things vary. Sometimes an actor's lines or words are a bit different for any number of reasons.
Sometimes it sounds better to use a different word. Sometimes they just don't remember them
as written and they come out with the idea of the line, but not the exact words. Sometimes things
are edited in the editing room. I was listening to the commentary on a film once where they talked
about editing one of the actor's dialogue scenes to give a completely different meaning to the line
than what had originally been intended! Everyone brings their unique talents to a film. In the final
analysis, we as audience members hope that if we are viewing it that we like it. Rarely do films get
as much line for line attention as BBM has with us. You think Michelle or Jake or others have dissected
the film as much as we have? They probably would have no answers for half the questions we would
ask them. It would be like someone asking us the details about a meal that we cooked five years ago.
After having attended panel discussions and Q&A's over the years following screenings of ampas
Best film winners and nominees, two things have always stuck in my head as generalities from these
sessions. One is that no matter the movie, someone always says they had no money or enough money
to work with and two, many of the best moments in films that people remember happen by sheer
accident or some immediate shooting problem that had to be overcome. It was in the moment and
not planned out in minute detail beforehand. It just happens during the process.
SIDEBAR: In trying to decipher who was responsible for any particular detail in a movie, I have
always wondered if it was the director, writer, sound editor or producer (!) who was responsible
for the moment in E.T. where we see E.T. pick up a couple of Reese's Pieces in close-up,
and then his fingers disappear from the screen. After a beat or two of silence, we hear the
"crunch crunch" sound of E.T. eating them. Audiences usually laugh at that moment and I have
always wondered who actually thought of that moment. Coulda been any number of people.
There is a scene in the first Indiana Jones which is totally different than what it was supposed to be and all because Harrison Ford had the flu and didn't feel up to doing it the way it was written. He is facing an adversary armed with a whip and a sword and was supposed to engage in some sort of brawl. Instead, he drew his gun and shot the man dead. End of scene. Now for some more Theraflu.
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The book "FARM BOYS. Lives of Gay Men From the Rural Midwest" by Will Fellows might be a good start.
It'a a collection of coming-of-age stories from men ranging from 84 to 24.
Farm Boys is a very interesting read, and was one of the pieces of source material that Annie Proulx used when creating Jack and Ennis.
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There is a scene in the first Indiana Jones which is totally different than what it was supposed to be and all because Harrison Ford had the flu and didn't feel up to doing it the way it was written. He is facing an adversary armed with a whip and a sword and was supposed to engage in some sort of brawl. Instead, he drew his gun and shot the man dead. End of scene. Now for some more Theraflu.
That scene was so funny and unexpected! Good for them for deciding to do it that way!
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Acclaimed US novelist and short story writer Annie Proulx was in Melbourne last month for a Wheeler Centre/Melbourne Writers Festival event promoting her latest book, Bird Cloud. In this video excerpt, she talks about the origins of her short story, Brokeback Mountain.
http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=10150272748808135&oid=190856682751&comments (http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=10150272748808135&oid=190856682751&comments)
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Fascinating to hear Annie say how using the original language as opposed to tv speak left folks with no problem. I would say that especially Ennis speak is still the hardest part to be understood - more so for none American speakers. And no mention of Diana?
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Fascinating to hear Annie say how using the original language as opposed to tv speak left folks with no problem. I would say that especially Ennis speak is still the hardest part to be understood - more so for none American speakers. And no mention of Diana?
And what about Wyoming??
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City Opera Vancouver secures rights to Brokeback Mountain chamber opera world premiere
Show me a good love story and I’ll show you a good opera—which is why this news comes as a particular thrill: City Opera Vancouver has secured the rights to the chamber music version of Brokeback Mountain, the opera.
Composer Charles Wuorinen has signed a Letter of Intent with COV, agreeing that he will create a chamber version of the work he’s currently developing, with a libretto by the original Brokeback Mountain author, Annie Proulx.
http://www.straight.com/article-388806/vancouver/city-opera-vancouver-secures-rights-brokeback-mountain-chamber-opera-world-premiere#comment_form (http://www.straight.com/article-388806/vancouver/city-opera-vancouver-secures-rights-brokeback-mountain-chamber-opera-world-premiere#comment_form)
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Wondered if this has anything to do with Ang Lee possibly.
He fits the bolded part + Chinese + wondering...
CHINESE GODDESS
[CHINESE GODDESS] Looking for a Chinese model/actress age range 20-35. She must be beautiful, powerful, strong, yet elegant, serene and fluid all at the same time. She will act as a goddess controlling elements. Picture a gorgeous goddess throwing out a spiraling fireball. Dance training and/or professional movement experience preferred.
This is an extremely prestigious role and amazing opportunity. This person's likeness will be featured in an animated logo for the branding of a movie studio associated with an A list, critically acclaimed, Academy Award winning Director.
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Picture a gorgeous goddess throwing out a spiraling fireball.
hmmm... that sounds more like a casting request put out by m. night shyamalamalan... didn't he do the "LAS TAIRBENDER" movie?
oh wait.. it says academy award winning. not nominated.
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LAS TAiRBENDER sounds like a spanish version of The Hangover!
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An Open Letter to My Undergraduate Institution
by abcohen12
Dear Fellow Fans,
Yes, I know you hate the West Virginia University Mountaineers. I know WVU has been one of our biggest athletic rivals since the 1890s. Heck, I even know that WVU fans have a history of throwing objects at our players and coaches. But do you really think it’s okay to call them the “Brokeback Mountaineers” or the “Mountainqueers?”
We’ve always prided ourselves on making clever jibes at our athletic opponents. But these names are hateful and homophobic. My guess is that we’re trying to comment on WVU’s lesser athletic prowess, that WVU is emasculated because of their inferior athletic abilities and therefore “queer.” We might not have homophobic intentions, but by using LGBT terms to refer to things we dislike and things that aren’t “masculine” enough, we’re still making a homophobic statement. We’re like all those seventh graders who go around saying, “That test was sooo gay.”
(https://ultimatebrokebackforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi275.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fjj282%2FSanFranciscoJohn%2Fscreen-shot-2011-05-02-at-10-04-44-am.png&hash=710e5bd55c4de50865fa53855c091ed481d3a90e)
more...
http://classracegender.wordpress.com/2011/05/02/an-open-letter-to-my-undergraduate-institution/ (http://classracegender.wordpress.com/2011/05/02/an-open-letter-to-my-undergraduate-institution/)
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Hi bcj:
First, I must say that the "Open Letter" written by an alumna is so very good.
Considering the source from whence the homophobic and hateful words come from - West Virginia Univ. - in Facebook, I am not surprised at all that they would insult BBM in such a way (or any other way), even to the point of putting a "WV" mark on Heath's face (the poster). This is also hateful and homophobic. Insulting BBM in ANY way such as this makes me see red anyway.
This sports thing, or whatever it is, on Facebook is sooo stupid. I wish we could stop such things! I don't care if I'm against the tide, but I have had an aversion to Facebook from day one and still do.
kathy
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Bay City John: your letter to the undergrads earns you the right to wear those five gold stars under your name as epaulets. Good on ya, bud!
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Bay City John: your letter to the undergrads earns you the right to wear those five gold stars under your name as epaulets. Good on ya, bud!
thanks, but it's not my letter, I just posted a quote and the link.
The author is someone with the screenname abcohen12
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I am cross-posting here -- this post is in Fan Fair but we so rarely think about Anna Faris (La Shawn), I thought more people should see it
In the April 4th issue of the New Yorker there's a long feature about Anna Faris (La Shawn) -- you can't see the whole article on line unless you subscribe, but here's a link to a video of her scene stealing moments in a few films.
Ha! Imagine trying to steal the scene from Jake G! anyway her Brokeback scene is not in the video.
http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/newsdesk/2011/04/anna-faris-video-tad-friend.html
She has another movie coming out in September 2011
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thanks, but it's not my letter, I just posted a quote and the link.
The author is someone with the screenname abcohen12
Still, thanks. For everything you actually do - that's impressive enough.
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from what I gather, Larry McMurtry got married to Norma "Faye" Haxby, widow of Ken Kesey on Friday
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Hmmmm...one flew east, one flew west...
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http://www.opednews.com/Diary/Brokeback-Mountain-and-two-by-cumhur--zkaya-110504-877.html
But when people who lived 40 years before would watch this film they would be shocked.
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^^^ I couldn't quite tell if the article had been generated by Google translator or was written like that in English by the Turkish reviewer.
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Ken Kesey's widow married Larry McMurtry in Texas
Faye Kesey, the widow of Oregon author Ken Kesey, married another well-known writer, Larry McMurtry, in McMurtry's hometown of Archer City, Texas, on April 29, the day of the royal wedding. Faye Kesey is 76. McMurtry, the Pulitzer Prize-winning author of "Lonesome Dove" and many other novels, is 74.
McMurtry and Ken Kesey were classmates in the graduate writing program at Stanford University in the late 1950s. Kesey became famous when his first novel, "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest," was published in 1962 and became a successful Broadway play. McMurtry's first novel, "Horseman, Pass By," was published a year earlier. He went on to write 44 books and numerous screenplays, including the Academy Award-winning "Brokeback Mountain." Kesey stopped writing for several years after his second novel, "Sometimes a Great Notion," was published in 1964. He died in 2001.
more...
http://www.oregonlive.com/books/index.ssf/2011/05/ken_keseys_widow_married_larry.html
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Beyond Brokeback Mountain: the church and rainbow sexuality
Stephen Hunt, Contemporary Christianity and LGBT sexualities, Burlington VT: Ashgate Publications 2009
Reviewed by Ted Witham
Soon after its release, my wife Rae and I went to see the movie Brokeback Mountain, Ang Lee’s brilliant adaptation of Annie Proulx’s short story. We saw it as tragic story of bisexuality book-ended by an outraged protest against anti-gay violence. Many of our friends reacted negatively to it, and most preferred not even to see it.
For some, it is so difficult to deal with these issues, to name them clearly and to discuss them. Their attitude, I fear, may be expressed in the cliché: “My mind’s made up: don’t confuse me with facts!”
There are many challenging “facts” in Contemporary Christianity and LGBT sexualities, but this book is too good to be dismissed just because readers find its subject confronting. In effect, the different essayists go through the letters LGBT and Q and explore the interactions between the “non-heterosexual” population and the churches.
full review here:
http://tedwitham.wordpress.com/2011/05/10/beyond-brokeback-mountain-the-church-and-rainbow-sexuality/ (http://tedwitham.wordpress.com/2011/05/10/beyond-brokeback-mountain-the-church-and-rainbow-sexuality/)
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George Clooney wanted for lead role in gay movie
Hollywood heart-throb George Clooney has been offered a starring role in a £50 million remake of the gay movie which inspired Brokeback Mountain.
::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)
The film is widely credited for making gay movies mainstream and as the inspiration behind 2005 Bafta award-winning hit Brokeback Mountain.
http://swns.com/george-clooney-wanted-for-lead-role-in-gay-movie-121701.html (http://swns.com/george-clooney-wanted-for-lead-role-in-gay-movie-121701.html)
Ok, I've been here over 5 years and this is the first I've heard of this film being the inspiration for Brokeback Mountain.
How did I miss that??
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**You didn't miss it, bcj, because it's a total lie. No 1970's little indie Australian film ever inspired anything.
Damn! I just can't stand it when they print lies like this - going back to the 1970's - regarding our beloved BBM.**
kathy >:( >:(
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George Clooney wanted for lead role in gay movie
Hollywood heart-throb George Clooney has been offered a starring role in a £50 million remake of the gay movie which inspired Brokeback Mountain.
::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)
The film is widely credited for making gay movies mainstream and as the inspiration behind 2005 Bafta award-winning hit Brokeback Mountain.
http://swns.com/george-clooney-wanted-for-lead-role-in-gay-movie-121701.html (http://swns.com/george-clooney-wanted-for-lead-role-in-gay-movie-121701.html)
Ok, I've been here over 5 years and this is the first I've heard of this film being the inspiration for Brokeback Mountain.
How did I miss that??
**You didn't miss it, bcj, because it's a total lie. No 1970's little indie Australian film ever inspired anything.
Damn! I just can't stand it when they print lies like this.**
kathy >:( >:(
It would have been wiser for SWN to state that The Set (released February 1970) was the first time that an Australian mainstream film depicted homosexual characters, rather than it was “widely credited for making gay movies mainstream,” with its implication of a global arena.
Considering that homosexuality was illegal here at the time, the film was groundbreaking.
It was made two years before the classic Australian TV soap opera Number 96, which ran from 1972-1977 (five nights a week x 30 minutes), and which was similarly innovative and controversial, “led the world” in its depiction of sex with its protracted nude scenes, gay and straight love scenarios and full frontal male and female nudity, none of which had been seen before on TV. It did inspire though, an American version in 1980, set in California (rather than Sydney), which, unfortunately, wasn’t as successful, or as controversial, as its parent. ;D
As far as inspiring BBM is concerned I guess the only one who’d know that for a certainty would be AP—and nobody works in a vacuum.
But I feel it’s a little unkind to say that its inspiring BBM is “a total lie.” It needs to be taken with a grain of salt, and the writer given at least some credit for his/her intriguing promotion for a hoped-for film.
I gather that Clooney’s response is as yet unknown...
BTW, The Set was not “a little indie Australian film,” Kathy.
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Thanks for the interesting backgound facts on this, Paul.
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A pleasure, Sara. There's nothing like trying to get the facts straight.
I don't recall seeing the film—I was only about five at the time. ;D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMT0Mtf_u34&feature=related
The first minute or so outlines the gay issue to which the Small World News writer may be referring... ::)
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LOL... who do they want George clooney to play? paul's grandfather?? :D ;D
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A pleasure, Sara. There's nothing like trying to get the facts straight.
I don't recall seeing the film—I was only about five at the time. ;D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMT0Mtf_u34&feature=related
The first minute or so outlines the gay issue to which the Small World News writer may be referring... ::)
Whut?
Thought we were talking about facts!
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I don't recall seeing the film—I was only about five at the time. ;D
Whut?
Thought we were talking about facts!
< My reaction on being taken to see The Set by my dear mother when it screened at the Lyceum Star Theaterette*, Melbourne. ;)
In B&W, as was the film... ;D
* Memories can be deceptive, Amanda.
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LOL... who do they want George clooney to play? paul's grandfather?? :D ;D
I'll give you an answer in a bit, J. ;)
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maybe he'll play Tony? cuz the guy playing paul in the original movie looked young. and a bit like hugh grant. :)
btw, the woman, hazel, aged quite well after 35 long years! if they DO use clooney, they could use her in her original role!
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The film’s on YouTube in ten parts (0-9). Just type The Set (Frank Brittain, 1970).avi in YouTube search.
Its gay protagonists are Paul and Tony, with similar personalities (all things being equal), and a similar relationship, to that of Jack and Ennis.
I’ve seen references to From Here to Eternity (nude beach embrace), Angels in America (the statue in the park) and the INNQ scene in BBM.
Is that "inspirational" enough? Maybe... >:D
There’s some interesting dialogue, too. (“He’s an expert with mechanics...” and “That’s French porcelain, isnt it?”). Make of those what you will. ;)
Jimmy, how about Clooney for Mark Bronoski (in Part Eight)? ;D ;D ;D
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There’s some interesting dialogue, too. (“He’s an expert with mechanics...” and “That’s French porcelain, isnt it?”). Make of those what you will. ;)
I really don't have a dog in this fight, but I am enjoying the discussion.
Paul, please explain the phrase "That's French porcelain, isn't it?" I've never heard it before, and don't get it. If it involves some anatomical peccadilloes, by all means make them clear (Brokies love 'em, y'know). And if it's unspeakably vulgar, there's always PM (I'll never tell).
~~~fia
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also enjoying the discussion, but wondering if it should stay in this thread. thinking ...
(general discussion of Brokeback Mountain.)
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The written line, in and of itself, is not correct. The film Brokeback Mountain
was inspired by the short story, it wasn't inspired by another film. I believe
it's just a case of using one thing to get people to read your article.
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The written line, in and of itself, is not correct. The film Brokeback Mountain
was inspired by the short story, it wasn't inspired by another film. I believe
it's just a case of using one thing to get people to read your article.
Looks like it worked :D
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The written line, in and of itself, is not correct. The film Brokeback Mountain
was inspired by the short story, it wasn't inspired by another film. I believe
it's just a case of using one thing to get people to read your article.
yeah, that could be the explanation
although you would think "George Clooney" would be enough, even for US
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The written line, in and of itself, is not correct. The film Brokeback Mountain
was inspired by the short story, it wasn't inspired by another film. I believe
it's just a case of using one thing to get people to read your article.
**Definitely true.**
kathy
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The written line, in and of itself, is not correct. The film Brokeback Mountain
was inspired by the short story, it wasn't inspired by another film.
Agreed.
The Set was also inspired by a novel, too.
Perhaps the writer could have covered all bases by saying:
"The film is widely credited for making gay movies mainstream in Australia, and the novel upon which it's based may have been the inspiration for the short story behind the 2005 Bafta award-winning hit Brokeback Mountain."
I believe it's just a case of using one thing to get people to read your article.
As I initially suggested. :)
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George Clooney wanted for lead role in gay movie
::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)
http://swns.com/george-clooney-wanted-for-lead-role-in-gay-movie-121701.html (http://swns.com/george-clooney-wanted-for-lead-role-in-gay-movie-121701.html)
Ok, I've been here over 5 years and this is the first I've heard of this film being the inspiration for Brokeback Mountain.
How did I miss that??
Because it wasn't?
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A pleasure, Sara. There's nothing like trying to get the facts straight.
I don't recall seeing the film—I was only about five at the time. ;D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMT0Mtf_u34&feature=related
The first minute or so outlines the gay issue to which the Small World News writer may be referring... ::)
Yes, thanks for the background facts, Paul.
The film seems interesting.
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And I could of course be wrong, but I guess some people would consider Brokeback Mountain a small indie film, too... And surprise surprise, it turned out quite nice and successful, too!
Yes, as far as I know, it was regarded a bit of a financial risk, and not at all expected to go mainstream the way it did.
We're lucky it got worldwide attention the way it did. Otherwise none of us may even have heard of it.
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**You didn't miss it, bcj, because it's a total lie. No 1970's little indie Australian film ever inspired anything.
Damn! I just can't stand it when they print lies like this - going back to the 1970's - regarding our beloved BBM.**
kathy >:( >:(
I have it on good authority that BBM was inspired by a 1917 Tom Mix movie.
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I have it on good authority that BBM was inspired by a 1917 Tom Mix movie.
I like this. :)
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Yes, thanks for the background facts, Paul.
Glad to help out, Sonja.
The film seems interesting.
Yes, it is. :)
It was the first Australian feature film to deal with lesbian and gay relationships, and while the film’s intrinsically Australian these are issues which any nationality could understand.
Five years later Picnic at Hanging Rock similarly dealt with universal themes (sexual awakening and repression, for instance) in an Australian context.
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Oh wow! Picnic at Hanging Rock is one of my favorite movies ever! So weird to see it mentioned here! I am not a movie lover by any stretch of the imagination and I thought I was the only human alive to ever been enthralled by that movie!
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I have it on good authority that BBM was inspired by a 1917 Tom Mix movie.
It was 1922, not 1917
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zK-Db98hj8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zK-Db98hj8)
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And I'm sure Heath would not have lost his sense of humour.
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I have it on good authority that BBM was inspired by a 1917 Tom Mix movie.
I think you’re onto something, Marge, and after extensive research, I came across this:
(https://ultimatebrokebackforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi412.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fpp201%2Frasalgethi_photo%2FMix-1-1.jpg&hash=d7ff52122bc027075caff5fb917508234abcc626)
I decided to add the thought bubble because the original title card was quite degraded.
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Proulx grazed in a lot of Western literature once she got settled back in Wyoming. I believe Brokeback Mountain is a work of supreme genius, forged by the heat from many fires. Books. Jawboning. Driving around. etc. Two works in particular caught my eye a couple of years back. Ivan Doig's Dancing at the Rascal fair, about two young Scottish boys who set up sheep ranching on the great Rocky Mountain Front that divides Montana. Their years of affection and eventual falling out with each other (over women) mirrors a lot of Brokeback and preceeds it by nine years (1988).
Dancing at the Rascal Fair is the mountain range out of which Proulx mined some of Brokeback's purest gold. A quote: "... to tend the camp of our sheepherder, David Erskine, whom I had hired as soon as he grew from twisted boy into twisted man." "... With us, jackknife in your earnest small hand, skinning the pelts off our bad loss in the winter of 1906, when almost a quarter of our sheep piled up and smothered during a three day blizzard." And there are other passages.
Then, in Teresa Jordan's Cowgirls, Women of the American West (1982), comes this, with the opening of the short story of Brokeback Mountain branded all over it: "Fifty miles from nowhere, Southern Montana. Early April. 2:00 A.M. The alarm jangles. Cassie reaches from under the eiderdown and turns it off, then lies for a moment and listens to the wind beat against the windows. "It's come up," she thinks, "since I laid down. It must be even colder now," and she remembers the midnight reading of twenty below.... Cassie rolls out of bed and feels for the pair of Levi's she left on the chair. She pulls them over her long-johns and wiggles into a heavy wool sweater. Then she stumbles to the kitchen, pours herself some coffee from the pot she never unplugs during calving season, and finishes dressing.... Only her wedge of brunette hair betrays her sex. She grabs her stocking cap off the wall peg and yanks it deifiantly over her ears. She grabs gloves and a flashlight, pushes the door against the wind, and steps into the blackness.
The wind cuts through her with a cold that sucks her breath, stops her heart....."
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^^^^^^^^^
Great finds, Oregon.
Thank you. :)
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Proulx is coming to Portland this Fall as part of a lecture series. Not sure I can go. But am mulling over an article for the Oregonian that should get her attention.
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It was 1922, not 1917
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zK-Db98hj8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zK-Db98hj8)
I'm so glad you've been able to restore this old Swill-Swallow clip that must have been such an inspiration to BBM!! ::) ;D ;D
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Proulx grazed in a lot of Western literature once she got settled back in Wyoming. I believe Brokeback Mountain is a work of supreme genius, forged by the heat from many fires. Books. Jawboning. Driving around. etc. Two works in particular caught my eye a couple of years back. Ivan Doig's Dancing at the Rascal fair, about two young Scottish boys who set up sheep ranching on the great Rocky Mountain Front that divides Montana. Their years of affection and eventual falling out with each other (over women) mirrors a lot of Brokeback and preceeds it by nine years (1988).
Dancing at the Rascal Fair is the mountain range out of which Proulx mined some of Brokeback's purest gold. A quote: "... to tend the camp of our sheepherder, David Erskine, whom I had hired as soon as he grew from twisted boy into twisted man." "... With us, jackknife in your earnest small hand, skinning the pelts off our bad loss in the winter of 1906, when almost a quarter of our sheep piled up and smothered during a three day blizzard." And there are other passages.
Then, in Teresa Jordan's Cowgirls, Women of the American West (1982), comes this, with the opening of the short story of Brokeback Mountain branded all over it: "Fifty miles from nowhere, Southern Montana. Early April. 2:00 A.M. The alarm jangles. Cassie reaches from under the eiderdown and turns it off, then lies for a moment and listens to the wind beat against the windows. "It's come up," she thinks, "since I laid down. It must be even colder now," and she remembers the midnight reading of twenty below.... Cassie rolls out of bed and feels for the pair of Levi's she left on the chair. She pulls them over her long-johns and wiggles into a heavy wool sweater. Then she stumbles to the kitchen, pours herself some coffee from the pot she never unplugs during calving season, and finishes dressing.... Only her wedge of brunette hair betrays her sex. She grabs her stocking cap off the wall peg and yanks it deifiantly over her ears. She grabs gloves and a flashlight, pushes the door against the wind, and steps into the blackness.
The wind cuts through her with a cold that sucks her breath, stops her heart....."
This is indeed very interesting, Larry.
Thanks for dogging digging it up.
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Those were really interesting finds, Oregondoggie!
Proulx is coming to Portland this Fall as part of a lecture series. Not sure I can go. But am mulling over an article for the Oregonian that should get her attention.
LOL, and this sounds like a threat... :o :D
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Oh wow! Picnic at Hanging Rock is one of my favorite movies ever! So weird to see it mentioned here! I am not a movie lover by any stretch of the imagination and I thought I was the only human alive to ever been enthralled by that movie!
Or as my sister said to me last time I saw her, "Did Peter Weir ever make a bad film?"
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This is indeed very interesting, Larry.
Thanks for dogging digging it up.
That is quite amazing. Great find.
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My goodness, this thread has been busy while I slept!
;D
I'm glad to see the topic being busy, after all, Brokeback is why we are here.
On that note, the topic of the thread is Brokeback related discussion. If someone says/posts something that you disagree with and it's not on topic (example, what constitutes an "indie" film) perhaps the best course of action would be to PM that person.
Back to discussion. ;D
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Or as my sister said to me last time I saw her, "Did Peter Weir ever make a bad film?"
I hope you said "Yes."
Okay, equating Peter Weir & BBM:
Brokeback Mountain (the mountain, not the movie as a whole) has something of the same feel here. It seems to be a place with spiritual powers. People go up to it, and behave it different ways than they can elsewhere. It has a unique geometric shape, at which we keep staring, and which seems trying to convey some moral significance. It is often peeking out though mist. One also thinks of Hanging Rock in the Peter Weir film.
http://mikegrost.com/anglee.htm
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I think you’re onto something, Marge, and after extensive research, I came across this:
(https://ultimatebrokebackforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi412.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fpp201%2Frasalgethi_photo%2FMix-1-1.jpg&hash=d7ff52122bc027075caff5fb917508234abcc626)
I decided to add the thought bubble because the original title card was quite degraded.
LOL Paul!
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If Marguerita Moreau married Tom Mix she'd be Marguerita Mix.
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Hi!
People who understand the "no personal attacks rule" have been breaking that rule in this thread.
I am deleting all posts in the discussion.
Please respect all participants in this forum.
By now the discussion on another gay film that may star George Clooney should probably move to "most anticipated next movie."
Thanks
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I hope you said "Yes."
Okay, equating Peter Weir & BBM:
I definitely did say yes. We are separated by 300 miles when she is in this country, and 3,000 miles when she is at her house in Florida, despite this we often think along the same lines, we haven't discussed Brokeback Mountain, but we have talked about Annie Proulx and her writing, which she also loves.
We also tend to buy the same shoes!
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I like this. :)
That first post was facetious, but here's something that's the real thing:
A character named "Jack Twist" was a major character in Hideaway a novel by novelist Dean Koontz. It was published about 10 years before BBM. No telling if Dean Koontz was any influence on Annie Proulx, but Jack Twist is a pretty distinctive name.
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Apparently there was a boxer, in Australia no less, in the late 1940's, named Jack Twist.
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Mary McBride Performs "No One's Gonna Love You Like Me" from "Brokeback Mountain" - May 10, 2011
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-iTXopkgKs (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-iTXopkgKs)
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BROKEBACK MOUNTAIN scene directed by Paul Warner
NYFA students Charlie Upton and Alex Farrell play Jack and Ennis in this climax scene from Brokeback Mountain. Filmed in a classroom in 2.5 hours.
Produced at the New York Film Academy - 2010
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ydCjnV2DnWY (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ydCjnV2DnWY)
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Directed by Scott Nelson. Towson Univ Class
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hAH5Rh-olk0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hAH5Rh-olk0)
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBYojw_e4ik (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBYojw_e4ik)
Cast: Ennis: Tom Patrick;
DP : Henry Corzo; Production Assistant: Robert Mora; Music : David Jordan; Location & Props: Darren Schilling, Minnaeh Ahn; Director :Henry Corzo
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The phone call
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWJqVthdE9w (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWJqVthdE9w)
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Jenna and Danny in a scene from "Brokeback Mountain" for their Acting for the Camera class.
http://vimeo.com/22930556 (http://vimeo.com/22930556)
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BROKEBACK MOUNTAIN scene directed by Paul Warner
NYFA students Charlie Upton and Alex Farrell play Jack and Ennis in this climax scene from Brokeback Mountain. Filmed in a classroom in 2.5 hours.
Produced at the New York Film Academy - 2010
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ydCjnV2DnWY (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ydCjnV2DnWY)
John, please tell us how you came to know about these student efforts. They all deserve bravos, and my only disappointment is that I never knew such things existed.
I thought Upton and Farrell were superb. Their accents distracted me a bit, but I finally realized Heath had to overcome the same problem, to his everlasting credit. But they absolutely conveyed the message of the scene, that Ennis was still in denial and Jack's honesty was a threat to Ennis's sham.
Great stuff. Many thanks.
~~~fia
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I was so impressed with Upton and Farrell, I wrote lauding them before I read about Paul Warner, their director.
Wow, that explains a lot. The setting, the re-write of some of the dialog, and the final desperate, heartbroken Jack kissing the hand of his contemptuous lover...
I have to say, the result is an effort worthy of the original.
Warner has obviously been around for a while, but this is the first time I've seen his work. I found a lot about him simply by searching youtube.
~~~fia
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John, please tell us how you came to know about these student efforts. They all deserve bravos, and my only disappointment is that I never knew such things existed.
I thought Upton and Farrell were superb. Their accents distracted me a bit, but I finally realized Heath had to overcome the same problem, to his everlasting credit. But they absolutely conveyed the message of the scene, that Ennis was still in denial and Jack's honesty was a threat to Ennis's sham.
Great stuff. Many thanks.
~~~fia
I was actually searching for the recent U. of Texas video last night and I found these instead. I don't know if the U.T. video has been posted anywhere yet.
The accents threw me for a bit too but they quickly became insignificant.
This is definitely the best student scene I've seen so far.
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I've only seen one other but these guys sure have a handle on J&E don't they? Bravo to all involved.
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Can I second that Andy. I was riveted.
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I put a link to these in LeBar this morning. They were all terrific!
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Feels kinda strange to see so many different Jacks and Ennises.
I think the three women's performances are quite good.
I agree that the first ones are the best Jack and Ennis, it actually added a few nuances to that scene for me.
As for the other male performances, I find them pretty uneven, parts of them are ok, parts are not very good.
But of course, I'm very critical here. Comparing anything to the original is not really fair to those who try, as I can never be unbiased.
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Not to worry Sonja, next week we can watch the real thing on blu-ray(hight def.) :Di
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Comparing anything to the original is not really fair to those who try, as I can never be unbiased.
This is something I learned in acting classes years ago: When preparing a role, DO NOT watch or listen to other performances of that role, especially movies. It's easy to get caught up with trying to emulate the other actors. Create your own character from the script.
Easier said than done :D
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That makes sense, John. The same applies to performance of music of course.
I wonder, has anyone in the movie said how they would do things differently, given the chance?
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If you had to write down Ennis's initials, would you write ED or EDM? I lean toward EDM.
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I'm inclined towards EdM.
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That makes sense, John. The same applies to performance of music of course.
With music I do try to emulate other keyboard players as a learning exercise. The trick is using what I've learned without trying to sound like the original.
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Not to worry Sonja, next week we can watch the real thing on blu-ray(hight def.) :Di
Looking very much forward to that!!
I still have fond memories of last time we watched it at your place, so the standard is set high! ;)
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I've been of a mind to watch it again lately but have put it off just in case the demand to watch it, or part of it is high, Sonja.
The other day I sat in the car at a beauty spot here on the island and had the soundtrack on. Very moving when listening without any distractions.
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I've been of a mind to watch it again lately but have put it off just in case the demand to watch it, or part of it is high, Sonja.
The other day I sat in the car at a beauty spot here on the island and had the soundtrack on. Very moving when listening without any distractions.
I do hope we'll decide to watch it one of the days, Andy. Of all the times I've wathced it, the viewing at yours is one of the better ones.
(you're beautiful just the way you are, you don't need no beauty spot....)
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Well, with a new tv and high def player you'll be impressed. You'll be able to count the strands of wool on the sheep's backs as they come over the rise. ;)
And of course, watching it with like minded folks is always a pleasure, nay, a privilege.
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Well, with a new tv and high def player you'll be impressed. You'll be able to count the strands of wool on the sheep's backs as they come over the rise. ;)
And of course, watching it with like minded folks is always a pleasure, nay, a privilege.
Looking even more forward to it now!
I love to watch it with brokies, and comment a little along the way.
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But of course, I'm very critical here. Comparing anything to the original is not really fair to those who try, as I can never be unbiased.
For me, the original is the short story itself. That's why I look forward to multiple stage performances in years to come.
Young, unknown actors sinking their hearts into a story about hate and redemption.
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For me, the original is the short story itself. That's why I look forward to multiple stage performances in years to come.
Young, unknown actors sinking their hearts into a story about hate and redemption.
I think Charlie Upton and Alex Farrell would be good choices for a stage performance. They were wonderful.
I do hope the stage play gets produced before I'm too old to get to the theater.
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Brokeback Meets Les Miz
Up There - Stars of the West End Sing the Songs of Steven Luke Walker (Brokeback Mountain)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1zw_97ocmM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1zw_97ocmM)
This song just doesn't do anything for me. It's such a typical West End musical sound. (I love West End musicals ;D ) All I could think of while listening was 'One Day More' from Les Miserables.
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^^^
I agree.
I can’t hear a single steel guitar, dobro or banjo here - not even a 1980's plastic transistor-radio, running out of batteries.
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I just went to DMV to register my new used second car, a 1968 Cadillac Eldorado, a simply gorgeous car.
And I will be getting this license plate: JT [heart] EDM
On my regular car, I have this plate: TOTO TWO.
So my license plates are from my two favorite movies, which is as it should be.
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Wow that is incredible.
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Wow that is incredible.
I know what you mean - a '68 Eldorado that still runs!!!
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You joker you :D :D :D
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Hootenanny!
The San Francisco Gay Men's Chorus
June 17-18, 2011
Continuing the inaugural season of Dr. Timothy Seelig, the Chorus kicks up its cowboy-booted heels for some good ole country tunes – a real Hootenanny!!
The Chorus will delight you with the perfect summer offering of music and hilarious antics that only country music can provide: from Patsy Cline’s “She’s Got You,” and Tammy Wynette’s “DIVORCE,” to stunning choral arrangements of “Oh, What a Beautiful Morning” from OKLAHOMA.
You’ll sing, clap and dance along with the men as they whisk you through an evening of exuberant entertainment featuring San Francisco favorites; the Whoa Nellies Band and the Barbary Coast Cloggers, and Texas’ own queen of country, Kim Wisdom. Former conductor of the San Francisco Symphony Chorus Vance George will take us on a musical journey to Appalachia with some real sacred harp singing.
Also joining us from Los Angeles are Shawn Kirchner and Ryan Harrison performing music from their Brokeback Mountain album and a very special cameo from the reigning Miss Trannyshack Pollo del Mar & friends.
Ticket prices range from $15 - $40 and are available for purchase at https://www.sfgmc.org/purchase_tickets.shtml. We can't wait to see you there!
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Man allegedly wields knife after mother takes 'Brokeback Mountain' DVD
An 18-year-old man was charged Friday for allegedly wielding a knife and damaging property at his parents’ house after his mother took away his “Brokeback Mountain” DVD.
Nicholas A. Post, of 1509 Illinois Ave., is charged with misdemeanor disorderly conduct, which carries a maximum punishment of nine months in jail due to a penalty enhancer for using a dangerous weapon.
According to a criminal complaint:
Post’s parents said the incident began about 10:30 p.m. Thursday when his mother took away what the complaint termed “inappropriate videos,” including “Brokeback Mountain.” The movie is a critically-acclaimed but controversial story of a relationship between two cowboys.
http://www.sheboyganpress.com/article/20110610/SHE0101/110610076/Man-allegedly-wields-knife-after-mother-takes-Brokeback-Mountain-DVD?odyssey=tab%7Ctopnews%7Cimg%7CFRONTPAGE (http://www.sheboyganpress.com/article/20110610/SHE0101/110610076/Man-allegedly-wields-knife-after-mother-takes-Brokeback-Mountain-DVD?odyssey=tab%7Ctopnews%7Cimg%7CFRONTPAGE)
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^^^^^
The only crime I can see that has been committed here is...that they took the BBM DVD ! How DARE they !!
I'm with the boy on this one !!
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Man allegedly wields knife after mother takes 'Brokeback Mountain' DVD
An 18-year-old man was charged Friday for allegedly wielding a knife and damaging property at his parents’ house after his mother took away his “Brokeback Mountain” DVD.
I know we Brokies tend to get intense about it but that's a bit much! >:D
Of course, that would be when having more than one copy would come in handy.
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**Yup.**
kathy ;)
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I know we Brokies tend to get intense about it but that's a bit much! >:D
Of course, that would be when having more than one copy would come in handy.
My family in reverse! (No knives involved though :D) I do have 2 copies - lent one to my son about 6 months ago but he still hasn't watched it.
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Man allegedly wields knife after mother takes 'Brokeback Mountain' DVD
Oh my!
m
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No one has ever dared to take my copy away, but I have two so that if anything should happen to one of them............
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Isn't Sheboygan where Jack Benny was from? If not, he used to use
that place in some of his quips.
At first, when you read that it comes across as quite an amusement.
Then, as is my want, I began to think about it a bit more--after I
read the short piece, and several things began swirling around in my
mind.
First is that the very amusement I had when reading that is probably
the only reason that someone wrote it. To get a chuckle out of
the situation. But what's really going on in that family? Doesn't sound
like a good situation. Is this guy in need of a big dose of "It Gets Better"
treatment or does he have very serious issues that need treating?
How will this being publicized and drawn attention to help this guy?
I read the comments and there is no way of authenticating the veracity
of the commenters, but one person who claimed to live in Sheboygan wrote:
This kid has mental issues, he is a child molester but got away with it because he has issues....ya
think!!!!! Something needs to be done with this kid well guess he's not a kid anymore....but nothing will
since we live in Sheboygan. He has had many run ins with the law and nothing. lets just keep letting him
get away with things until he really hurts someone or kills them....Then will the courts listen???
Oh by the way if you haven't already guessed he is gay but his mommy wont let him be she says it's not
what god wants Um hello lady get a clue he's watchin brokeback mountain and running after you with a
knife any clues from that one??!??!??!?
Child molester's a serious accusation and no telling what that's about as child molesters
aren't usually "kids" themselves as the poster is want to call him at first, but if they do live
in Sheboygan there is obviously a person in need in that house--just on the surface it sounds
like a very troubled gay teen with parents who are far from understanding and when you add
their religious dogma to it (being who you were born to be is not what God wants?) well, I
just hope some good could come to the situation. Maybe one good is that the guy had the
Brokeback Mountain dvd in the first place and knows he's not alone in the world. Then his
mother tries to take the one thing in his life that gave him any comfort at all...
It gets better?
(https://ultimatebrokebackforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcmsimg.sheboygan-press.com%2Fapps%2Fpbcsi.dll%2Fbilde%3FSite%3DU0%26amp%3BDate%3D20110610%26amp%3BCategory%3DSHE0101%26amp%3BArtNo%3D110610076%26amp%3BRef%3DV1%26amp%3BMaxW%3D300%26amp%3BBorder%3D0&hash=17f9f5b351ef34102d3569f1f0e241209bd0e9f7)
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I really don't understand the automatic assumption that this teenager is gay, just because he likes BbM. At what point will we ratify that others may well have loved it, too, other than straight females?
He might be gay; he might not. Is there some kind of death grip on this film and all that it can mean? If so, I tend to think those with that grip will see, ever more, their hold withering, as the world and human thinking changes.
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I really don't understand the automatic assumption that this teenager is gay, just because he likes BbM. At what point will we ratify that others may well have loved it, too, other than straight females?
He might be gay; he might not.
I assume you are referring to "me" as making this assumption because no one
else who posted on this thread said it, nor did the article in question say anything
about it. Neither, to my surprise actually, did most of the people who commented
on the online article so far. However, I did infer just that because there was someone
(screenname carebear) who posted a couple comments who said they lived in Sheboygan
and they stated some further info about this person (in trouble before) and they posted
that he is gay and said that his mother didn't want him to be because, they wrote, "it's not
what god wants."
No, I cannot verify the veracity of anyone posting, but the poster offered some details and
wrote in a way that it sounds pretty credible enough to me. So I don't think you can say
that I automatically assumed any such thing. I might have to automatically assume you
didn't read the article or the comments.
And besides, if you read my sig line you will find that at least I, and Harvey Feinstein, automatically
assume everyone is gay unless I am told otherwise. Just as straight people automatically assume
people are straight unless told otherwise.
While reading that article I thought of the young 17-18 year old from Kentucky who I had talked
to on this forum when he first got the Brokeback Mountain dvd and had to hide in his room to
watch it with his hand on the remote so he could shut it off if his father walked in. He had even
gotten someone else to buy it for him as he couldn't even bring himself to buy it in person, lest
someone think "whatever" about him.
If you look at the posts about Brokeback Mountain on IMDB from the teenage/college age fanboys
who mostly post on those threads you'll find a virulent anti-Brokeback sentimentality there. Even if
we "ratified" that some of those straight boys loved it (BBM), too, I daresay it would not be a hard
assumption that they wouldn't admit it in public. They probably wouldn't own a copy of it. Not
with the bullying/teasing etc. that would come of admitting such a thing. In Tennessee you can't
even acknowledge you're gay in a public school under a new law passed there! See TDS.
So I feel your offense is misplaced, a bit utopian and subject to debate.
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.... I might have to automatically assume you
didn't read the article or the comments.
......So I feel your offense is misplaced, a bit utopian and subject to debate.
Hi, Lyle. No, I wasn't focusing on your post or singling you out, although, yes, your post did trigger mine, which is probably too fine of a distinction, and so therefore....my bad.
I did read the article, and especially the comments, and anything referring to him as either gay (or, so very over-the-top, a child molester), I thought was symptomatic of assumptions, which was the intended objection of my post. It's a small town, apparently, but I tend to doubt those comments. We have the same in our local news, where people try to bump up their credibility for whatever they suppose must be true.
Again, he might be gay, he might not be. My first reaction was that supposing him automatically as gay is unwarranted. Quickly following that one was my long-standing regret that the film has been corralled off as the preserve of the gay and the gay-friendly. Most enduring stories outlive much of their original intent or even focus. And, with BbM, I very much believe, there is so much there, including the acting and cinematography, and music, the subjects of grieving, and loving, that, like it or not, it will escape the confines which now, IMO, exist artificially.
Meanwhile, as can happen on the internet, and on forums, my reference to those with a "death grip" on the film, gave every appearance of referring to you or your post. I do regret that. I've found many of your posts anticipating a hoped-for time when straight males can be more free, even though, in a different area, on the general approach to this film, we may have differences.
Bad timing for my post, and also, failure to word it more carefully. I do apologize. As for anything we might debate, well, I've done that these several years, on the appropriate threads, with others, and exhausted whatever I could say. And, for that matter, I don't recall difffering from any of your posts. Again, it was not aimed at you, Lyle, and I apologize again for the appearance of that. Peace, brother :)....
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Oh, yeah.... I remember white racists who loved "Porgie and Bess" and anti-semites who loved "Fiddler on the Roof". And people who liked both who were neutral as far as ethnic stuff. The point being, there are likely to be those who will treasure BbM for reasons different than those on our forums.
For all we know, the Sheboygan dude was a Heath Ledger fanatic. Most of the younger set I have asked, have elevated him to a status past all others. Granted, they say it was TDK that did it, but I'm fairly sure they admired his guts in doing BbM. Which they have nearly all seen, on cable, although they find it inconvenient to discuss. I recall that very phenomenon being a joke on a couple of sitcoms.
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Jack Benny was from Waukegan, Illinois. It was always quite prominent in his humor. Still listen to him on XM Sirius classic radio, still funny after all these years!
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**I saw him in Vegas; he must have been in his late 70's then. He was so funny the audience was in stitches throughout his act. At the end, he passed a basket around for people in the front rows to put money in it for him. It was so hilarious I just couldn't stop the laughing.
His TV show is shown on one small station over here and has been for yrs. (Groucho's too). They are sooo funny.**
kathy :)
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If my house was on fire the first things i would grab would be my Jake and Heath library of films. The cat would have to fend for himself !!! :D
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It's a union of counterculture literary figures. Larry McMurtry and Faye Kesey, widow of Ken, were quietly married April 29 in McMurtry's home town of Archer City, Texas (think "The Last Picture Show"). On Tuesday, the couple celebrated their nuptials with another ceremony in Archer City that was attended by friends and family including Diane Keaton, Maureen Orth, Diana Ossana, Andrew Wylie and Leon Wieseltier. Marriage hasn't slowed McMurtry's output. He's at work with longtime writing partner Ossana on screenplays for Fox ("The Color of Lightning") and Warner Bros. ("Empire of the Summer Moon") and on an untitled pilot about Texas for HBO.
http://www.variety.com/article/VR1118038918 (http://www.variety.com/article/VR1118038918)
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If my house was on fire the first things i would grab would be my Jake and Heath library of films. The cat would have to fend for himself !!! :D
#1: The dogs
#2: The computer
#3: My copies of BBM, #3 only because they can be easily replaced. ;)
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Brokeback Mountain CENSORED AGAIN!
Tonight, a day after New York State passed its marriage equality act, and in the middle of the tremendous Gay Pride celebration in San Francisco,
"Current" TV (CRNT Channel 358 on Direct TV) presented a castrated version of Brokeback Mountain. This is the station that prides itself on expecting journalistic integrity and hosts the well-respected Keith Olbermann.
Examples:
Ennis is not shown washing. A crucial clue to the growing sexual tension.
FNIT almost pitch-black. Even so, the sex scene was cut before hauling Jack onto all fours.
No rear entry with Alma either.
Tits scenes with Alma and Laureen cut.
Finally, Jack complains he can't make it with a couple of high-altitude BLEEPs once or twice a year.
Result: It's like a half-dead battery powering the story.
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If I'd watched BBM the first time in that form, I'd have wondered what it was they were keeping a secret. >:D
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Just posted a complaint about censorship of Brokeback Mountain on CURRENT TV. Basically repeated statement above.
http://getsatisfaction.com/currentcom/topics/current_tv_censors_brokeback_mountain
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Just posted a complaint about censorship of Brokeback Mountain on CURRENT TV. Basically repeated statement above.
http://getsatisfaction.com/currentcom/topics/current_tv_censors_brokeback_mountain
Getting results. Here is one supportive response, which I have slightly edited for clarity, from "X" on CURRENT TV:
"Thank you for posting this OregonD... I just caught the film and was so thankful that CTV was showing it, b/c believe it or not I had not ever had a chance to see or rent it yet. Beautiful, sad and powerful story. But I kept wondering, in the tent scene near beginning, why would the director let that scene, almost shot in complete darkness, (NOT?) go on? Now I understand. One thing they could have done is just show the movie during its late-night airings. Even the venerable TCM doesn't edit showings of more-recent classic films with relatively "adult" scenes. Why this was important to me was not for titillation purposes, but for the better understanding and flow of the movie, as well as artistic integrity. ...2011. Ugh...! "
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Brokeback Mountain CENSORED AGAIN!
Tonight, a day after New York State passed its marriage equality act, and in the middle of the tremendous Gay Pride celebration in San Francisco,
"Current" TV (CRNT Channel 358 on Direct TV) presented a castrated version of Brokeback Mountain. This is the station that prides itself on expecting journalistic integrity and hosts the well-respected Keith Olbermann.
Examples:
Ennis is not shown washing. A crucial clue to the growing sexual tension.
FNIT almost pitch-black. Even so, the sex scene was cut before hauling Jack onto all fours.
No rear entry with Alma either.
Tits scenes with Alma and Laureen cut.
Finally, Jack complains he can't make it with a couple of high-altitude BLEEPs once or twice a year.
Result: It's like a half-dead battery powering the story.
Did Ennis also call Jack "Jack Frederick Twist" from the railing, instead of the original? That's what Bravo did...
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Did Ennis also call Jack "Jack Frederick Twist" from the railing, instead of the original? That's what Bravo did...
Darn! I missed that moment.
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Darn! I missed that moment.
How could you miss it????????? :o :o :o
OMG I thought that was your favorite scene.
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New video of 'Meet Me on the Mountain"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WBJOqQ-J0cg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WBJOqQ-J0cg)
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That was great, John.
I'm so glad I got to visit SF. I have a rock (pink quartz) on my desk in front of me right now from the Pink Triangle. Our tour guide informed us that the rocks are replaced on a regular basis and we were encouraged us to take one home in remembrance.
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This video reminds me of Jari's post from them earlier days:
Brokeback provided us with language of loss that we all could understand. Brokeback hit us directly into heart and ripped our protective layers to shreds. It left us vulnerable and raw but also alive. Brokeback cannot provide meaning and purpose to our lives but it has exposed the need, shown to us that we may have lost our direction and we need to reclaim it.
As a gay man I realize that we lost the stories of previous generations to AIDS. It took away thousands and thousands of men who could have taught us, told us their stories. We weren't left without srories altogether because we heard incredible stories of pain, loss, love and sorrow, bravery and commitment in face of death. But we didn’t get to share the stories of love and life. We had no frame of reference. We had to create stories without the wisdom of earlier generations and also without affirming stories in culture around us.
Now I know that there are millions of stories worth telling and sharing. Our stories have never been told. The stories of love, lust, happiness and joy, of betrayal, loss, tragedy and pain. The stories that we could relate to. That would speak of us. Brokeback does that. It is a movie of basic humanity and choices, love and denial but it is also our story.
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New video of 'Meet Me on the Mountain"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WBJOqQ-J0cg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WBJOqQ-J0cg)
Beautiful version.
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A video appreciation of Ang Lee's 2005 masterpiece to commemorate New York's recent recognition of same-sex marriages
BROKEBACK MOUNTAIN (A video essay from Roger Ebert's Far Flung Correspondents)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SkXtu-x6v-o (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SkXtu-x6v-o)
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I found this Utube clip above very moving in it's simplicity and honesty.
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Yes, this is about as far off-topic as you can get...
...but I don't know anyone else to ask. :(
I love music, and that love goes back a long way. But if my life depended on it, I could not name one single singer or musician who is my favorite. Under the right circumstances, my favorite could be any of hundreds.
For me, that's a happy situation. But two of my favorites are the singer Tony Bennett and the composer/arranger/conductor Percy Faith. They crossed paths early in Tony's career at Columbia records (Mitch Miller was A&R). Tony had three #1 hits there in two years ("Because of You", "Cold, Cold Heart" and "Rags to Riches"), a simply incredible phenomenon.
Percy Faith was in the thick of Columbia's record works then, composing and arranging, even cranking out a couple #1s of his own. Now here's what I want to know...
What, if anything, did Percy have to do with Tony's recording of "Rags to Riches"?
Did he arrange the music? Did he conduct the band?
No, he didn't write the song (that was Richard Adler and Jerry Ross), but he might have done everything else. (I have this faint recollection of his participation, but alas, I am confused.)
C'mon, I know you're not as old as me, but maybe you overheard your grandpa talking about this... ;D ;D ;D
~~~fia
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Bennett sang the song with Faith's orchestra. I expect that the arrangement was Faith's also, since he kept a pretty close hand.
http://www.amazon.com/Tony-Bennett-Percy-Faith-Riches/dp/B001OBR4OO
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Clash with gays splits Anglican church
A PRIEST who quit over homophobic abuse wants her resignation to cause greater inclusion of gays.
The Rev Ali Wurm - who announced last month she was leaving Semaphore's St Bede's Anglican Parish after being subjected to bullying and threats related to her sexuality - also called on senior Anglicans to show stronger leadership to resolve internal tensions surrounding the issue.
A former Dean of Adelaide, Dr Steven Ogden, said the circumstances surrounding Ms Wurm's departure was of "national significance" and must be debated in the church.
----------------------------------------------------
Ms Wurm also recounted being "berated" by a senior Anglican after organising a theological discussion involving 80 people after a screening of the film Brokeback Mountain.
---------------------------
Full article:
http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/clash-with-gays-splits-anglican-church/story-e6frea6u-1226086303531 (http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/clash-with-gays-splits-anglican-church/story-e6frea6u-1226086303531)
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Bennett sang the song with Faith's orchestra. I expect that the arrangement was Faith's also, since he kept a pretty close hand.
Thanks, Fritz, you're right of course.
Still, another puzzle has reared its head. Please see
http://www.cduniverse.com/percy-faith-rags-to-riches-lyrics-4799199.htm (http://www.cduniverse.com/percy-faith-rags-to-riches-lyrics-4799199.htm)
Have I gone looney, or does this actually say that Faith wrote the lyrics? I thought Adler and Ross together wrote their own words and music.
~~~fia
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That is strange. The top header says that Faith wrote the lyrics, yet at the bottom they attribute them correctly to Adler and Ross. Seems like more than one hand was involved in that!
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OMG!!!!
I won the coveted Auntie Mame Award today at Deep Dish.
If It's Tuesday, This Must Be 'Brokeback Mountain'
http://marcharshbarger.blogspot.com/2011/07/if-its-tuesday-this-must-be-brokeback.html (http://marcharshbarger.blogspot.com/2011/07/if-its-tuesday-this-must-be-brokeback.html)
I correctly answered 5 questions about Brokeback Mountain:
1) In what state is the mountain located? Wyoming
2) In what decades does the film begin and end? 1960's -1980's
3) What is Lureen's occupation when Jack first meets her? Rodeo rider
4) What does Ennis find in Jack's childhood bedroom?
It was his own plaid shirt, lost, he’d thought, long ago in some damn laundry, his dirty shirt, the pocket ripped, buttons missing, stolen by Jack and hidden here inside Jack’s own shirt, the pair like two skins, one inside the other, two in one.
5) Complete this quote: "I wish I knew how to ____ you." Quit
(https://ultimatebrokebackforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi275.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fjj282%2FSanFranciscoJohn%2Fauntiemameaward.jpg&hash=30f0b7d43b5d758bff4c7faff0d18b811fa2ddc7)
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FILM THEORY & CRITICISM
Brokeback Mountain Breaks the New Queer Cinema Mold
By Jeremy Gee
July 5, 2011
In Brokeback Mountain (Ang Lee, 2005) we see the binary character study of two men engaging in a socially unacceptable love affair throughout a lifetime. The implications of such a plotline give Brokeback Mountain a public persona that is incorrectly associated with New Queer Cinema. The motives of films defined within the realms of New Queer Cinema are substantially different from those of Brokeback Mountain, whose primary objective seems to not openly address its story of two gay cowboys so much as to present the conflict at hand: namely, two men have continual sexual relations, neither of them admittedly homosexual, and are both stuck in a society where such relations are very taboo. In light of this situation, Ennis Del Mar and Jack Twist both explicitly state to each other that they are, in fact, not gay, and the film unfolds well into a third hour before never answering that lingering question to the audience. Nevertheless, Brokeback Mountain does not exist to answer any questions, merely to present the socio-political issue that it involves, and as such it stands apart from the ultimately-generic New Queer Cinema with which Brokeback might be easily associated.
It is worth considering that New Queer Cinema presents material that has been present in both independent and mainstream films since film's inception. Homosexuality and homoeroticism has always been present in the movies, even if it was muffled as needed to meet industry standards. Film Noir as a genre, for example, is rife with blatantly homosexual characters, but those are usually presented in a non-flattering and immoral light. New Queer Cinema seems to have come at a time when the independent film scene was a growing commodity in the 1990's, and when the increasing organizational power of gay and lesbian communities in the wake of the AIDS virus. Normalization of homosexuals in film existed, then, purely because of the existence of an increasingly successful (if only marginally) independent film scene where subject matter was not under the duress of major studios' involvement. There exists an argument by critic Geoff King that independent film, for all its claim to originality and innovation alternate to anything Hollywood pumps out, has boiled itself down to "individually-centered cinema... that limits its capacity to present radical alternatives to dominant American ideologies." King argues that New Queer Cinema is no different than the indie sector, failing to address in its films issues of homophobia or other gender insecurities that are broader cultural issues and lie at the root of many dominant American ideologies. In response to this argument, this essay would like to examine Brokeback Mountain which fits the category of both indie film and N.Q.C. film, but manages to situate itself alternatively to both.
full essay:
http://www.moviesin203.org/2011/07/brokeback-mountain-breaks-the-new-queer-cinema-mold/ (http://www.moviesin203.org/2011/07/brokeback-mountain-breaks-the-new-queer-cinema-mold/)
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Rock it, John! ;D
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The Dukes of Cambridge, William and Kate, on tour in Canada, make a stop in Calgary, the West Country. What better time for the royal couple to show off the Brokeback look?
(https://ultimatebrokebackforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi275.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fjj282%2FSanFranciscoJohn%2FWilliamBrokebackBASE.jpg&hash=17306bb430f59339988099424e72996b218c3e21)
http://www.gay.it/channels/foto_articolo.php?id=32091 (http://www.gay.it/channels/foto_articolo.php?id=32091)
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He looks really good in Western wear!
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He looks really good in Western wear!
I bet he looks even better out of western wear :)
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Quite probably the case! You can see that he has some hair on his chest!
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Congrats on your win, John!
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Brokeback Mountain Review
Totally clueless
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qaqwUlbT6Qs (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qaqwUlbT6Qs)
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*ducks*
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http://www.starwars.com/movies/saga/announce3d/index.html
Anyone asked Focus Features for a 3D conversion of Brokeback Mountain?
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Brokeback Baritone
Thakns for that, John, it's really interesting. Since the day to day lives of gay people of
history are largely unknown, I enjoy finding out about "gay people of history." Even if it's
seemingly mundane or routine, I enjoy it. It's like little discoveries,
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Yes John, thanks!
It's fascinating to find out how ordinary people lived their lives in the face of bigotry, since by definition such people couldn't be very open about how they lived.
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Sounds like quite a fascinating subject to follow, John!
Good thing he wasn't aboard on 7 May 1915.
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http://www.starwars.com/movies/saga/announce3d/index.html
Anyone asked Focus Features for a 3D conversion of Brokeback Mountain?
hmmm this would work well for the time on the mountain, but after that -- oh, Ennis coming down the stairs in 3D, during the Reunion!
OK, I'm on board. 8)
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None of us know what will make another person laugh, but today I came across a spoof that has left me in helpless in chortles and tears.
Of course it's totally off-topic, but here it is anyway.
http://www.flixxy.com/britains-got-talent-dodge-monaco.htm (http://www.flixxy.com/britains-got-talent-dodge-monaco.htm)
~~~fia
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It took me a while to realise the whole thing was edited and not just this guy. Hilarious! Thanks fia.
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Brokeback Mountain Review
Totally clueless
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qaqwUlbT6Qs (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qaqwUlbT6Qs)
and annoying I have to add... >:( >:( It's like she watched a different movie...
I liked the comments, though it is futile to try persuade people who seem so narrow-minded.. The "versatile" comment surprised me because i hadn't caught this detail before and it seems pretty interesting now that i'm thinking of it; i wonder if and when i will stop discovering new things in this film.
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For anyone who can get CNN International, Dave's going to speak about the attack between 12 and 1 Eastern, in 15 minutes. Not sure when in the hour he'll speak. He had a blurb on FB about it.
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Brokeback Mountain Midterms Scene (Rough Cut)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUTMgnWAXRM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUTMgnWAXRM)
Directed By: Adrian Ruvalcaba
Shot on: EX1 Camera
Shot At: The Los Angeles Film School (Hitchcock Stage)
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^^^^^
Continuity alert: I don't think Ennis would have been drinking Amstel Light in 1967 in Wyoming, and that plastic butane lighter wasn't around at the time.
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Brokeback Caligari :D :o This is good.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0Ft5fYqxXQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0Ft5fYqxXQ)
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Jack I swear these are the same actors in both videos.
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Oooh.... to see Elsa Lanchester sinking her teeth into Ennis!
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(https://ultimatebrokebackforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi275.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fjj282%2FSanFranciscoJohn%2FAlmaJrandJenny.jpg&hash=1985df3c82468fc560ac78196bdac5381c575684)
Alma Jr. and Francine
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Fear and loathing on Brokeback Mountainby Craig Snyder
So as the lights went dark in the theater five years ago and the high school boys in the audience finally stopped making jokes about lonely cowboys and sheep,
I thought to myself that perhaps now, finally, I’ll experience visual pleasure when seeing Hollywood’s version of the homosexual.
What I did not realize then, was that the gay bodies in Brokeback Mountain were never meant to be on cinematic display for my pleasure. Rather, they were on display for my discipline.
Brokeback Mountain does not attempt to question or offer an alternative to the idea of the homosexual as deviant.
Instead, it affirms a heteronormative reading that results in the audience seeing disciplinary actions on the gay body as normal and justified.
Full article here:
page 1 http://www.ejumpcut.org/currentissue/snyder-brokeback/index.html (http://www.ejumpcut.org/currentissue/snyder-brokeback/index.html)
page 2 http://www.ejumpcut.org/currentissue/snyder-brokeback/2.html (http://www.ejumpcut.org/currentissue/snyder-brokeback/2.html)
Well written and well thought out, but a rather bizzare take on what the purpose of films should be. It's as if Mr. Snyder thinks the film is saying "this is how it is and how it should be".
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Fear and loathing on Brokeback Mountainby Craig Snyder
Full article here:
page 1 http://www.ejumpcut.org/currentissue/snyder-brokeback/index.html (http://www.ejumpcut.org/currentissue/snyder-brokeback/index.html)
page 2 http://www.ejumpcut.org/currentissue/snyder-brokeback/2.html (http://www.ejumpcut.org/currentissue/snyder-brokeback/2.html)
Well written and well thought out, but a rather bizzare take on what the purpose of films should be. It's as if Mr. Snyder thinks the film is saying "this is how it is and how it should be".
This is a thoughtful, but to me wrongheaded analysis of BBM.
He doesn't to me seem to understand the internal fear that Ennis held within himself, seeing him rather as not actually homosexual.
What do others think?
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Bettermost.net folks are posting a blizzard of great pictures from their tour of the film sites in Alberta a couple of weeks ago.
And now the Ennisjack.com flock is there this week and next! They are staying in Canmore until the 14th. But at a different chalet.
Today, they start hoofing it around the movie sites. The first time for most. A few photos of their planning sessions and making breakfast are starting to apprear. On the 14th, they'll be at the Red Coat Motor Inn in Fort Macleod around the corner from the laundry apartment house.
Sure wish I could redline it up from Portland but gas costs a lot more than it did back in 1967.
And I ain't no spring chicken anymore!
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Cody Institute awards resident fellowship to Gregory Hinton for "Out West at the BBHC"
Wyomingarts wrote in the spring about Gregory Hinton’s project, Beyond Brokeback. UW Theatre and Dance Professor John J. O'Hagan directed a one-hour staged reading of Beyond Brokeback for the 15th annual Shepard Symposium on Social Justice on April 8 at UW in Laramie.
Beyond Brokeback was adapted for the stage by Hinton from the book Beyond Brokeback: Impact of a Film written by Members of the Ultimate Brokeback Forum, a web community which formed in the aftermath of the release of the award-winning film, Brokeback Mountain. The story was written by Wyoming author Annie Proulx. It was first published in The New Yorker and was in her book Close Range: Wyoming Stories.
The Ultimate Brokeback Forum, comprised of people from all walks of life -- country, city, gay, straight, men, women, young, old -- received over 500,000 posts in the first year. Excerpts of essays, poetry and music inspired by the film was presented along with the song "Meet Me on the Mountain," written by noted composer Shawn Kirchner.
more...
http://wyomingarts.blogspot.com/2011/08/cody-institute-awards-resident.html (http://wyomingarts.blogspot.com/2011/08/cody-institute-awards-resident.html)
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Brokeback Caligari has been edited, but I'm not impressed with the added sound effects.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kANLZkPkPjo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kANLZkPkPjo)
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I went to DMV today to get the personalized license plate I posted about earlier:
JT [heart] EDM
The DMV lady might have been in her 20s. After the plates had been visible for a while, I asked, "I'm sure you're wondering what the plate means." Since my initials are MR, I wasn't on the plate anywhere.
I said it's Jack Twist and Ennis Del Mar from Brokeback Mountain. She hadn't seen it.
So I gave her a brief sales pitch, saying it's one of the 10 best movies ever made, and that it's a girls' movie, that about 30 seconds of it are gritty and the other 2 hours and 10 minutes are wonderful, and that I could talk her ear off about it. She said she'd see it. I fearlessly predict she'll love it.
When we were done doing three things (registering a used car from out-of-state, requesting a duplicate pink slip for another used car, and switching the personalized plates from one car to the other), I said thanks so much and that I was lucky she worked there. As a former bureaucrat in San Francisco City Hall (I retired last month!), I know how rare and appreciated comments like that are.
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I'm most curious to find out what comments you get when you're on the road. I'm sure you'll keep us informed. :)
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best of luck, Marc!
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If I've seen this on the foum before, I don't remember it. I saw this and the only
info I can find out is that it looks like an entry a graphic designer did for a contest
back in 2007.
(https://ultimatebrokebackforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tamcao.com%2Fportfolio%2Fdesign%2Fbrokeback%2Fbrokeback_mountain_poster_lrg.jpg&hash=9e536fc859482798c6adea2f543d07d594abc3a5)
Brokeback Mountain Movie Poster /poster
Movie poster design for Key Art Award 2007.
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It's new to me too.
Can't say I like it a lot. You can't see Ennis's face at all.
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If I've seen this on the foum before, I don't remember it. I saw this and the only
info I can find out is that it looks like an entry a graphic designer did for a contest
back in 2007.
(https://ultimatebrokebackforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tamcao.com%2Fportfolio%2Fdesign%2Fbrokeback%2Fbrokeback_mountain_poster_lrg.jpg&hash=9e536fc859482798c6adea2f543d07d594abc3a5)
Brokeback Mountain Movie Poster /poster
Movie poster design for Key Art Award 2007.
this is brilliant
I emailed the artist to see if prints are available.....
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It's an evocative and effective picture, but all wrong as a movie poster. Is that how you want to remember BBM? Does the poster suggest a love story?
I suppose this question has been asked before, but I don't remember it: What single image from the film is:
-- your favorite
-- the best
-- the [something]
I think the DE is that image. The SNIT image now on Jake's eyelashes is a close second.
And here's a projective test: looking at the DE, are you Jack or are you Ennis?
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Sounds like Topic of the Week questions to me.
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Magaly Sanchez won the contest back in 2007 with this entry:
(https://ultimatebrokebackforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi275.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fjj282%2FSanFranciscoJohn%2FBBMMagaly1-1.jpg&hash=3964218b2468b6a5ca8a4fd8dc8756f1ac71bae8)
The annual Key Art Awards competition is the only one "in which working professionals honor their peers for designing and creating motion picture marketing materials," according to the Hollywood Reporter. Awards are given annually in 34 categories, including posters, trailers, TV spots, print, outdoor, Internet, home entertainment and co-branded advertising.
A year and a half after its release, Brokeback Mountain surfaced at the 2007 awards last month, in the form of an award-winning poster by a college student. The Key Art Awards has a special Student Awards category and this year, student competitors were to create posters from their choice of three films: Brokeback, Walk The Line and Pirates of the Caribbean: Dead Man's Chest. The winner, Magaly Sanchez from California State University Northridge created a Brokeback poster that the Hollywood Reporter publisher John Kilcullin said "did an excellent job of conveying the movie's story line, and invites viewers to experience the film."
http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=22833.0 (http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=22833.0)
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Bozeman library hosting controversial play about “Brokeback Mountain”
Author Annie Proulx had received a flood of letters after her short story “Brokeback Mountain” was published.
The story, which comes at the end of a 1999 mainstream compilation of short stories about Wyoming, is about the love shared between two male cowboys.
“I remember reading through it and going, ‘What!’” Out West creator and producer Gregory Hinton said. “It shocked everyone.”
Hinton had contacted Proulx about allowing him to piece the letters together, believing them to be a fairly comprehensive oral history of the rural gay west.
“She said ‘No, but it’s a nice idea,’” Hinton said Friday. “Then the book fell into my lap.”
That book, “Beyond Brokeback: Impact of a Film” was taken from over 500,000 posts by members of the Ultimate Brokeback Forum website.
full article
http://www.bozemandailychronicle.com/news/dailyfeatures/article_7ecb3d44-ebe3-11e0-80fd-001cc4c002e0.html (http://www.bozemandailychronicle.com/news/dailyfeatures/article_7ecb3d44-ebe3-11e0-80fd-001cc4c002e0.html)
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It's new to me too.
Can't say I like it a lot. You can't see Ennis's face at all.
**I don't like it either, nor the other one. How could anyone even think of not showing Heath as Ennis on a poster image of Brokeback Mountain? We need both of the boys' faces.**
kathy
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Wow John this is so interesting -- thx!
Bozeman library hosting controversial play about “Brokeback Mountain”
Author Annie Proulx had received a flood of letters after her short story “Brokeback Mountain” was published.
The story, which comes at the end of a 1999 mainstream compilation of short stories about Wyoming, is about the love shared between two male cowboys.
“I remember reading through it and going, ‘What!’” Out West creator and producer Gregory Hinton said. “It shocked everyone.”
Hinton had contacted Proulx about allowing him to piece the letters together, believing them to be a fairly comprehensive oral history of the rural gay west.
“She said ‘No, but it’s a nice idea,’” Hinton said Friday. “Then the book fell into my lap.”
That book, “Beyond Brokeback: Impact of a Film” was taken from over 500,000 posts by members of the Ultimate Brokeback Forum website.
full article
http://www.bozemandailychronicle.com/news/dailyfeatures/article_7ecb3d44-ebe3-11e0-80fd-001cc4c002e0.html (http://www.bozemandailychronicle.com/news/dailyfeatures/article_7ecb3d44-ebe3-11e0-80fd-001cc4c002e0.html)
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thought i'd toss there here as well:
i met a woman today, 20, who saw brokeback for the first time about a month ago. she said she had wanted to see it when whe was younger but her parents wouldn't let her, and this was even without them ever having seen it before. i told her that five years ago she might have been too young for the movie, but she disagreed. she said that they were were allowing her and her brother see far more violent and sexual movies at the time, and that it was the homosexual factor that they disliked.
anyway, she rented the movie on her own after having forgotten about it as the years went by, and was moved to tears, as you can imagine. said that she watched it several times in a row and it pretty much ruined her whole weekend -- in a good way. :D
she loved jake and heath in the movie and even though she doesn't seem very fan girlish i told her about the forum and slash (she never heard of it) and she seemed fairly interested in the "alternate universes" with the boys. ;D
i knew that BBM would do this -- keep on making people feel the way it made us feel when the movie came out. i'm so glad the BBM is still affecting souls. when i go to the library i always check to see if the dvd is on the shelves, and it is, sometimes four or five copies are available. lots of copies of the short story available, too... i realize this is los angeles, though, and it's probably not like that in many rural areas... but with netflix and online services, at least people that want to see the movie or read the story will be able to do so without much fanfare!
that's all! :)
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Larry McMurtry is one of the great American writers but after multiple health problems he has turned his focus to book selling.
ALI MOORE, PRESENTER: He's one of the greats of American literature.
From cowboy adventures to love stories, Larry McMurtry has brought countless characters vividly to life and his work has powerfully captured the American frontier.
And now in his 70s, after a heart attack, quadruple bypass surgery and a bout of deep depression, the writer has focused on his other love, bookselling.
Larry McMurtry gave a rare television interview to North America correspondent Jane Cowan.
JANE COWAN, REPORTER: A place where you can feel like the only soul alive. That's how Larry McMurtry's described his hometown.
Do you have affection for Archer City?
LARRY MCMURTRY, WRITER: Not a lot. I don't. It is (inaudible). You should see it in mid-winter; it's just as bleak as it is right now.
JANE COWAN: But if Archer City's bleak, it's provided plenty of fodder for a writer's imagination.
But at 75, Larry McMurtry is still here, in a sprawling ranch house filled with books, a virtual graveyard of burnt-out typewriters and reminders of a career he's loath to admit has been brilliant.
LARRY MCMURTRY: I'm a minor original novelist. That's not a bad thing. It's not self-deprecating. Because most writers are minor.
video and more
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-10-10/larry-mcmurtry-focuses-on-new-horizons/3463912
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Focus Features Poll on FB:
Coming Out Day is Tuesday, October 11. We’re very proud of our LGBT films. Tell us which ones moved you. .
Beginners 7 votes
The Kids Are All Right 34 votes
Milk 48 votes :o
Brokeback Mountain 35 votes ???
http://www.facebook.com/questions/10150415712030730/?qa_ref=qd (http://www.facebook.com/questions/10150415712030730/?qa_ref=qd)
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http://www.dallasvoice.com//calendar-men-1091346.html
Their Cowboy Outlaws calendar means you don't have to book a trip to
Brokeback Mountain to find aw-shucks hotties.
(not sure where to post this)
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Focus Features Poll on FB:
Coming Out Day is Tuesday, October 11. We’re very proud of our LGBT films. Tell us which ones moved you. .
Beginners 7 votes
The Kids Are All Right 34 votes
Milk 48 votes :o
Brokeback Mountain 35 votes ???
http://www.facebook.com/questions/10150415712030730/?qa_ref=qd (http://www.facebook.com/questions/10150415712030730/?qa_ref=qd)
**This to me is unbelievable. Who are these so-called "voters" anyway? How could a truly classic, beautiful film like Brokeback Mountain get only 35 votes? Totally ridiculous.**
kathy >:(
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We're
catching up condimenting! 50 to 49 now ;D
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We're catching up condimenting! 50 to 49 now ;D
**Great, bcj! It has to keep climbing.**
kathy
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It says 'which ones moved you, so I started off with Milk (haven't seen the first two) and then found I couldn't add Brokeback. So I changed it, but was annoyed that I couldn't have both, because I was very moved by Milk - though not in the same way.
Of course The Kids are All Right was probably a more widely distributed and viewed film.
Milk was on BBC TV on Sunday, for the first time I think.
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**I don't like it either, nor the other one. How could anyone even think of not showing Heath as Ennis on a poster image of Brokeback Mountain? We need both of the boys' faces.**
kathy
Also...why choose the most bitter moment of the film to promote it. It is promoted as a "Love story".
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**This to me is unbelievable. Who are these so-called "voters" anyway? How could a truly classic, beautiful film like Brokeback Mountain get only 35 votes? Totally ridiculous.**
kathy >:(
Well, I for one didn't vote because I'm not on facebook. Am I the only one?
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I'm on Facebook but don't go there every day, so I'm not sure I saw it ! Would certainly have voted for BBM if I did.
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Well, I for one didn't vote because I'm not on facebook. Am I the only one?
looks like!
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Well, I for one didn't vote because I'm not on facebook. Am I the only one?
**I'm not on facebook either, andy. If I was, I certainly would have voted for BBM.**
kathy
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I'm on Facebook, but I only look at it about once a month!
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Very well-known Australian film critics, Margaret Pomeranz and David Stratton, are celebrating the 25th anniversary of their weekly TV program. They were asked to nominate their respective 10 best films (not in order). They often disagree and argue in their discussions.
Both listed BBM
Margaret:
“It just blew me away. It was a very dangerous film to make ... no one really wanted to touch [the subject matter], so it was a brave thing to make and so beautifully realised.”
David:
“It moved me very, very much. It shows what a great actor Heath Ledger was and what a great loss he is to cinema. The story is told in such a tender and unemphatic way and the last scene of the film is probably one of the most moving in any film I know.”
The only other film they both nominated was Almodovar's All About my Mother.
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**How wonderful to read this!**
kathy
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Singer song-writer Mary McBride and the band dropped into the CityFM89 studios!
With Paul Carbonara on guitar, Greg Beshers on guitar, Dan Carr on bass and Bobby Llyod Hicks on drums. Here they are performing a song written for Mary for the soundtrack of Brokeback Mountain
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qaoVjRYhdrQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qaoVjRYhdrQ)
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^^^^^^^^^^
Great find!
Thanks, John!
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I first watched BBM two weeks ago which was the first week of January 2012. It was the best movie ever made. Below are a few of the things I have noticed about the movie and would love to discuss.
1. Ennis never talks about his siblings after the beginning of the movie. Why do you think he never mentions them again? I think they were probably homophobic like his father and Ennis wanted nothing much to do with them. Ennis always new he was gay.
2. In the first scene Ennis carried a paper bag filled with his clothes which were his only possessions. At the end of the movie Jack's mom puts the shirts in a paper bag which to Ennis were his prized possessions. Any significance?
3. When Ennis and Jack first start to herd the sheep up the mountain on horseback Jack was holding a baby lamb in his arms. Ennis wrapped up his lamb in a blanket and it rode on the side of the horse. I see this as Jack wore his emotions out in the open and Ennis buried them inside.
4. At Jack's parents house Ennis allows himself to open up. He talks a lot. Although he is heartbroken about Jack's death he seems to be relaxed around Jack's parents. (Jack's mom anyway). He says "On no ma'am I could not eat any cake right now. Just coffee for me" and "You don't know how bad I feel about Jack. Me and Jack knew each other for a long time. We were very close." I think he was just as comfortable talking to Jack's mom as he was talking to his own daughter(s). Maybe more. I definitely see him and Jack's mom developing a great relationship over the years. Maybe Jack's father will die soon.
5. Windows obviously have something to do with the story. But what? I can't figure it out. Any thoughts?
6. While Jack is standing on a combine doing a sales pitch a man comes into the office and asks Jack's father-in-law, "Is that the cowboy who used to rides bulls?" The father- in-law replies "he tried to". Jack had a reputation during his bull riding days of being gay and that man knew. He probably told the father-in-law and they both plotted to have Jack killed. Even though the father-in-law died before Jack I think he had something to do with his death. When Lurleen is describing Jack's death to Ennis I find it interesting that she describes every wretched second of it in detail. "He was changing a tire.... drowned in his own blood before anyone found him", etc. As if that was what she was instructed to say about Jack's death. Sounds too scripted. Did she know he was murdered by her father and his cronies? I know it's kind of morbid. Just an observation.
7. When Jack is desperately looking for his blue parka Lurleen is ignoring his concern about the parka and talks about other things. Maybe she hid the parka just to annoy Jack. She knew having to look for it would delay his trip to see the love of his life.
8. Fishing. Fishing. Fishing. Ennis told Alma that they were fishing buddies. He took his fishing gear with him on each trip. Why did they never fish? There were many streams, rivers and lakes they could have fished in. Who doesn't love fresh fish?
9. While arguing with Jack once about having a life together Ennis sarcastically says, "Lets get Alma and Lurleen to adopt my girls and then we could be free to live a life together and do what we want." Maybe Ennis fantasized about that often. Maybe Ennis was subconsciously sorry he even married Alma that November after Brokeback. When Ennis shed a tear at the divorce I think he was more upset about having to pay child support. This would financially keep him from seeing Jack as often as he wanted.
10. When Ennis read that Jack had died he immediately went to the phone booth across the street to call Lurleen. How did he know the number? Did he have it memorized? Did he carry it with him in his wallet? I thought that it was very touching that he had Jack's number all this time but could never call Jack.
11. THE HATS. Perhaps the biggest elephant in the room. Being from Texas I know that in the winter you are supposed to wear a black hat. In the summer you are supposed to wear a white or straw hat. Did Ang make them wear different colored hats throughout the movie to make it easy to figure out who was who? Especially during the scenes where they were rolling around on the mountain or far off in the vast landscape. Or do the different colored hats symbolize role reversal?
I see Jack as being the "male" and Ennis being the "female" in the relationship. However the story shows that there really were no "roles". They loved each other unconditionally and would do anything for one another. You see Jack doing Ennis's laundry. You see Ennis cooking for Jack. Ennis helped Jack carry the large log and offered to trade places with him to sleep with the sheep. Ennis shot the elk because the groceries were destroyed and Jack wanted to eat some meat. Jack ran over to Ennis to comfort him when he came to the camp with a bleeding head. Jack took off his bandana and dipped it in hot water to help clean the wound. Jack wanted to give up when they were trying to separate their sheep from the Chilean's. Ennis encouraged him to keep trying and to hang in there. They might need the work later.
The beauty of the story is that love has no bounds. Love cannot be conformed to "roles". Love cannot be restricted to the way society says it has to be. Aquirre, Jack's father-in-law and Jack's father lived their lives as "society" told them to live. Were they happy? Did you once see a smile on their faces? Were they three people you would like to hang out with?
The irony is that Jack and Ennis gave up a life together to be accepted by people like that. You can't make unhappy and ignorant people approve of your lifestyle. Why try?
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Welcome Austin Girl to our wonderful forum.
Lots of Your questions have already been discussed in the "Elements and Themes" threads. You would probably enjoy a really good look at those.
Great to see you here, glad you enjoyed our favourite film.
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Adding my welcome, too!
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Mine too!
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Glad to be here.
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Yeah, welcome to the forum, AustinGirl!
Glad you found us!
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Welcome, AustinGirl!
A lot of astute observations and comments there - some of which have been argued over for years :D. But a new point of view is always valuable.
You'll probably be interested in any of the first section of threads, BROKEBACK MOUNTAIN, perhaps particularly in How Brokeback affected me.
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Welcome!
We have a section called "Topic of the Week". The current topic is always in the news box at the upper right corner of the screen. You might try going there and clicking on "The Film and Book." Then you'll see a link for the previous Topic of the Week discussions.
You might find a lot of the things you brought up discussed. If you don't, try sending a personal message to tellyouwhat (Ellen) or CellarDweller115 (Chuck), the moderators, and suggest it as a topic.
Hope you like this forum! We've got a lot of topics to choose from.
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Just a caution, though, you have to have made at least 5 posts before you can send a personal message.
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I first watched BBM two weeks ago which was the first week of January 2012. It was the best movie ever made. Below are a few of the things I have noticed about the movie and would love to discuss.
Hello AustinGirl, and welcome to Dave Cullen Forum!
I'm CellarDweller115 (but please, call me Chuck) and I'm one of the mods who works here (thanks for the introduction, Marge!)
As Fritz said below, you have to post to the forum 5 times before you can use our PM system here, so after three more posts, you'll be ready to go!
As for your first question (Ennis and his siblings) I thought that was interesting enough to use as this week's "Topic of the Week". If you want to join in the discussion there, just click this link.
TOTW - 171st Edition (http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=44679.0)
I'll be back in a few with links to other threads where you can find discussions on the topics you've asked about.
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Welcome, AG. Good to have you around. Enjoy! :)
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Hi, Chuck!
It's so nice to be here. Thanks for using my observation as the topic of the week!
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Ok Austin Girl, I think I was able to find topics/threads where you can post your questions/observations. Hope to see you joining the conversations soon!
2. In the first scene Ennis carried a paper bag filled with his clothes which were his only possessions. At the end of the movie Jack's mom puts the shirts in a paper bag which to Ennis were his prized possessions. Any significance?
This was discussed in a past TOTW, and you can view it here. The thread is locked, so you won't be able to reply, but you can find a link at the end of the thread where the discussion can be continued. All TOTW threads are only open for one week, and then locked as "read only", but the conversation can be continued in an appropriate thread.
TOTW - 8th Edition (http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=31504.0)
3. When Ennis and Jack first start to herd the sheep up the mountain on horseback Jack was holding a baby lamb in his arms. Ennis wrapped up his lamb in a blanket and it rode on the side of the horse. I see this as Jack wore his emotions out in the open and Ennis buried them inside.
I think if I exand this a bit, I can turn this into next week's TOTW. Let's hold off on this until next Sunday.
4. At Jack's parents house Ennis allows himself to open up. He talks a lot. Although he is heartbroken about Jack's death he seems to be relaxed around Jack's parents. (Jack's mom anyway). He says "On no ma'am I could not eat any cake right now. Just coffee for me" and "You don't know how bad I feel about Jack. Me and Jack knew each other for a long time. We were very close." I think he was just as comfortable talking to Jack's mom as he was talking to his own daughter(s). Maybe more. I definitely see him and Jack's mom developing a great relationship over the years. Maybe Jack's father will die soon.
That would fit in with this topic:
At Jack's Parents (http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=1207.0)
5. Windows obviously have something to do with the story. But what? I can't figure it out. Any thoughts?
This was discussed in a past TOTW, and you can view it here. The thread is locked, so you won't be able to reply, but you can find a link at the end of the thread where the discussion can be continued.
TOTW - 152nd Edition (http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=43445.0)
6. While Jack is standing on a combine doing a sales pitch a man comes into the office and asks Jack's father-in-law, "Is that the cowboy who used to rides bulls?" The father- in-law replies "he tried to". Jack had a reputation during his bull riding days of being gay and that man knew. He probably told the father-in-law and they both plotted to have Jack killed. Even though the father-in-law died before Jack I think he had something to do with his death. When Lurleen is describing Jack's death to Ennis I find it interesting that she describes every wretched second of it in detail. "He was changing a tire.... drowned in his own blood before anyone found him", etc. As if that was what she was instructed to say about Jack's death. Sounds too scripted. Did she know he was murdered by her father and his cronies? I know it's kind of morbid. Just an observation.
That would fit in with this topic:
The Phone Call (http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=178.0)
7. When Jack is desperately looking for his blue parka Lurleen is ignoring his concern about the parka and talks about other things. Maybe she hid the parka just to annoy Jack. She knew having to look for it would delay his trip to see the love of his life.
This would fit in here:
Alma & Lureen (http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=135.0)
9. While arguing with Jack once about having a life together Ennis sarcastically says, "Lets get Alma and Lurleen to adopt my girls and then we could be free to live a life together and do what we want." Maybe Ennis fantasized about that often. Maybe Ennis was subconsciously sorry he even married Alma that November after Brokeback. When Ennis shed a tear at the divorce I think he was more upset about having to pay child support. This would financially keep him from seeing Jack as often as he wanted.
This observation would fit this thread:
Character Analysis of Ennis Del Mar (http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=1412.0)
10. When Ennis read that Jack had died he immediately went to the phone booth across the street to call Lurleen. How did he know the number? Did he have it memorized? Did he carry it with him in his wallet? I thought that it was very touching that he had Jack's number all this time but could never call Jack.
That would fit in with this topic:
The Phone Call (http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=178.0)
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It may interest you to know that of the foregoing posters I have met personally, sometimes several times, Cally, Andy, Sason and Chuck even though we don't all live in the same country or even continent, in the case of Chuck.
It is the power of Brokeback Mountain.........................
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It may interest you to know that of the foregoing posters I have met personally, sometimes several times, Cally, Andy, Sason and Chuck even though we don't all live in the same country or even continent, in the case of Chuck.
It is the power of Brokeback Mountain.........................
And there will be many more meetings, Jess (Janjo)
Sara :)
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I don't doubt that for one moment, we have such fun when we all get together.
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Wow! That is wonderful. I would love to meet you guys in person sometime. This movie is so powerful. I have NEVER felt this way about any movie in my life.
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Geaux all of us!
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Wow! That is wonderful. I would love to meet you guys in person sometime. This movie is so powerful. I have NEVER felt this way about any movie in my life.
AG, you wouldn't believe the many and varied get-togethers that have happened around the world as a result of this wonderful story. If you're in an area where there are other Brokies, then it may well happen to you... if you want it enough. Hell, you may even find yourself buying a plane ticket and heading off to who knows where just to be with us. :)
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AustinGirl, if you want to tell us a bit about yourself on a personal level, we have a thread called "New Members Introduce Yourself", and you can click the link to go there.
New Members -- Introduce Yourselves Here (http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=8797.0)
It's not required, so no pressure if you don't want to share!
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Wow! That is wonderful. I would love to meet you guys in person sometime. This movie is so powerful. I have NEVER felt this way about any movie in my life.
It would be nice to hear more about how you came to see the film, and its effect on you. Have you read the short story?
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Well the first time I watched BBM was on HBO two weeks ago. January 2012. Seriously. It was late and I could not sleep. Nothing else was on. The first scene that I saw was the FNIT scene. Wow! Got my attention. I loved the movie and was glued to the set. When I saw him find the shirts I almost vomited. I was crying so hard I could not breathe. So sad. So touching. The very next morning I subscribed to Netflix and have been watching it online all week. I'm so glad I found this site. I have never loved a movie like this in my life.
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Indeed, it's the favorite movie for many of us.
And for the vast majority of us, our spouses/partners can't quite fathom the obsession! :D
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I know! My friends think I have lost my mind completely.
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oh yes, Brokeback fever.
You haven't lost your mind, there are thousands of us. The weird thing is, almost none of us knows a personal friend or acquaintance who is also a Brokie. Without this on-line community, we wouldn't have had the chance to work it out.
So in case you're wondering, the fever lasts about 3 years. After that, it's never really gone (kind of like malaria), but every cell in your body has absorbed some aspect of BBM and you occasionally quote the movie during the day, without really realizing it.
ETA: I haven't quite accepted Jack's death, though.
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It's like Richard Dreyfuss making his mashed potatoes into Devil's Tower...
Only some people are called by it ;)
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Never linked those two, Donna, but very apt!
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Thanks for the info Ellen. When I first found this forum I was shocked that it is still so active after all these years. That's great! I don't think any other movie has this big of a following. Except the classics of course. This is a classic. I was reading that the shirts were auctioned off on ebay for $101K. Personally I think the shirts need to be donated to the Smithsonian.
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Yes Donna that's right! Devil's Tower.
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At least they've got a good home at present at the Autry Center in L.A. Several of us were there a year ago December to see them and to attend a reading of our Forum book there.
I went all the way there and back from Virginia by train! :D
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Well the first time I watched BBM was on HBO two weeks ago. January 2012. Seriously. It was late and I could not sleep. Nothing else was on. The first scene that I saw was the FNIT scene. Wow! Got my attention. I loved the movie and was glued to the set. When I saw him find the shirts I almost vomited. I was crying so hard I could not breathe. So sad. So touching. The very next morning I subscribed to Netflix and have been watching it online all week. I'm so glad I found this site. I have never loved a movie like this in my life.
This is interesting because when I first came to the story,I was resisting the movie and the hype. It was up for academy awards, and I walked into a Border's bookstore, and the place was plastered with Brokeback Mountain short story booklets for sale. I picked one up out of curiosity, opened it up to read --
The First Night in the Tent!
well, in the story, it is very bluntly presented "never done anything like it before, but no instruction manual necessary."
It was the writing, really, that hooked me.
I kept reading the story over and over, until I finally got up the nerve to go see the movie, about two weeks later.
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Wow Fritz! That's a long train ride. I'm glad they are in a safe place. I'll have to check them out sometime.
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At least they've got a good home at present at the Autry Center in L.A. Several of us were there a year ago December to see them and to attend a reading of our Forum book there.
I went all the way there and back from Virginia by train! :D
Fritz is the most traveling pilgrim for Brokeback I know!
I went to Wyoming to see Annie Proulx at a book fair. Back then she was surprised somebody would travel that far. Now I don't think anything we do would surprise her.
:D
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I'm anxious to read the SS. I ordered it on Amazon this morning.
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Here's an article about the shirts in the museum, Kim:
http://theautry.org/press/iconic-shirts-from-brokeback-mountain-on-display-in-autrys-imagination-gallery
And about the reading in 2010:
http://theautry.org/press/5th-anniversary-screening-of-landmark-film-brokeback-mountain
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Fritz is the most traveling pilgrim for Brokeback I know!
I went to Wyoming to see Annie Proulx at a book fair. Back then she was surprised somebody would travel that far. Now I don't think anything we do would surprise her.
:D
Not quite! There's Chuck! (CellarDweller)
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Not quite! There's Chuck! (CellarDweller)
:D :D
Kim, since 2006, I've been to about 15 states, and 5 different countries, all the trips were related to Brokeback.
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You guys are amazing! 15 states! I don't have a lot of time to travel right now but someday I would love to go to Canada to see where the movie was actually filmed. Has anyone been there?
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You guys are amazing! 15 states! I don't have a lot of time to travel right now but someday I would love to go to Canada to see where the movie was actually filmed. Has anyone been there?
Yep, and I've got vids of my trip up there in 2007 too, you're welcome to see them if you'd like:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFoSrS-YQhs&list=UUlmtQF-GwR7A_-AGjbA00Ug&index=89&feature=plcp
(They start here and go in reverse order)
Or you can start here, at the laundry apartment:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGEASmSbaXY&feature=BFa&list=UUlmtQF-GwR7A_-AGjbA00Ug&lf=plcp
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OMG! Thank you so much Fritz. This is great! Looks like I won't be going to bed early tonight like I had planned. Thanks!
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Well, I don't think you'll be able to watch them all in one sitting!
Back then on YouTube there was a ten-minute limit per vid, which is why there are so many of them.
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Kim, if you click this link below, you'll see my pics.
http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=22685.msg1638284#msg1638284
I went to Canada with Brokies in August of 2009 and we visited a number of the filming sites. The way I went about posting pics in the thread is like this:
The forum asks that we only place one image in each post, so the first image you'll see is a still from the movie. The next is the location as it looks now, and then the 3rd will be me at that location.
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Hadn't seen those in a very long time, Chuck! Thanks for bringing them back!
I'd love to go back there with other Brokies. Kim, I was alone at the time because we had just had a gathering in Colorado, and I took advantage of being out West to go to the movie sites. Several Brokies visited the sites later that summer, but I couldn't wait till then.
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The pictures starting here are of the opening sequence, from sunset to shortly afterwards.
http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=22685.msg918770#msg918770
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You guys are amazing! 15 states! I don't have a lot of time to travel right now but someday I would love to go to Canada to see where the movie was actually filmed. Has anyone been there?
In early 2006, as the Brokeback Mountain phenomenon swept the world, some remarkable things happened. One of these was the emergence of Dave Cullen’s Ultimate Brokeback Forum [1], an online resource for Brokeback aficionados to exchange experiences, ideas, and perspectives. The Brokeback Forum grew to more than 6,000 individuals who busily discussed topics ranging from Buddhist symbolism to exposed microphone cords, although most discussions dealt with the deep human side of the film and the remarkable feelings of pain, passion, fear, love, sadness, and hope it has engendered in us all.
One of these online conversations concerned travel to the film’s shooting locations in Alberta, Canada. Though a few news and Internet accounts provided some tantalizing clues to where some of the film’s scenes were shot (many of these reports later proved to be incorrect), there existed no reliable resource to guide Brokeback pilgrims to the Laundry Apartment, the Twist Ranch, the Childress Dance Hall, or even the Dozy Embrace site. This was plainly, as Jack would say, “a goddamn bitch of an unsatisfactory situation.”
Enter die hard Brokeback fans Jim Bond (born traveler), Rob Freeman (owner of Jack’s truck), Barry Gilligan (web guru), Steve Gin (Brokeback actor), Lauren Gurney (intrepid explorer), and Bob Sohomuch (map buff). Over the course of many emails, the notion emerged of a non-commercial website dedicated to helping Brokeback fans find these special places.
Finding the sites was an adventure. The producers of the film and the Alberta Tourism folks had provided a few general locations, but we wanted to go deeper, much deeper. The film has approximately 80 sites, of which we have now identified all of the major ones and all but one of the minor ones. We have also located the sites for 10 deleted scenes. We wrote to small town mayors, geologists, cliff diving enthusiasts, geographers, tractor authorities, and everyone else who might know where these places were. We even cultivated a “mole” or two. Then, in a series of phenomenal trips spanning four years and totaling more than 15,000 km, we drove throughout southern Alberta, movie stills in hand, asking anyone who would talk with us, “Have you seen this place?” The cooperation we received was astounding. Most of the photographs you see here came from these trips.
Meanwhile, Barry tirelessly assembled the framework for the website you are now using. Because of the nature of the material, the maps, the text, and the large number of photographs, no “standard” site format would work. Barry designed every element of this site from the ground up and then processed and integrated photographs, text, and links into the coherent form in which you see them now.
Use FindingBrokeback.com as a resource. It is free, our simple tribute to the committed and creative people who gave their talents to writing and telling the Brokeback story. Please let us know what sites you enjoy and share suggestions you may have for others who will follow you.
http://findingbrokeback.com/ (http://findingbrokeback.com/)
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Welcome, AustinGirl! It's great that you found this forum. I was so glad to have somewhere to talk about the story when I first arrived. I had no idea that I'd still be here years later! I don't think it matters if things have already been discussed, as it's always good to get new views.
I would highly recommend having a look at "Finding Brokeback". It's an amazing site.
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Welcome AustinGirl from... another Kim. Can't believe I'm still here after 6 years. Once you're over the initial fever, visiting this forum can become a habit that's hard to break.
May I recommend a thread that's one of my favorites, in The Juicy Bits, "Ignorant Straight Girl Wants Some Answers from Gay Men". It's very educational and enlightening. However, you may want to work your way up to that one by discussing the story/movie for a while until you start wondering about some things. :)
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And there will be many more meetings, Jess (Janjo)
Sara :)
Indeed there will!!!!
Can't wait to plan my next Brokie trip.
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I know! My friends think I have lost my mind completely.
That's what most of our friends think.
But don't worry, you're among friends here, and we all know how you feel, because we've all been there.
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You haven't lost your mind, there are thousands of us. The weird thing is, almost none of us knows a personal friend or acquaintance who is also a Brokie. Without this on-line community, we wouldn't have had the chance to work it out.
So in case you're wondering, the fever lasts about 3 years. After that, it's never really gone (kind of like malaria), but every cell in your body has absorbed some aspect of BBM and you occasionally quote the movie during the day, without really realizing it.
Very well put, I totally agree Ellen!
And I'd like to add, that when the fever slowly wears off, most of us have found that it's been replaced by new and wonderful friendships. Some of them only online, but a lot of them in real life too.
Meaning, we take every chance we can to get together, in smaller or bigger groups of Brokies. In different places, different countries, different continents. And we have SO MUCH FUN together!!
There is a special bond between Brokies, hard to explain, but we all feel it when we're together.
So far, there has been three major piligrimages to the various filming sites, in Alberta. And a number of smaller ones, too.
You can see pictures, thousands of'em, from various Brokie gatherings in the Gathering and events forum, here:
http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php?board=79.0
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Thanks for the info Ellen. When I first found this forum I was shocked that it is still so active after all these years. That's great! I don't think any other movie has this big of a following. Except the classics of course. This is a classic. I was reading that the shirts were auctioned off on ebay for $101K. Personally I think the shirts need to be donated to the Smithsonian.
The shirts are in the Autry museum in Los Angeles.
ETA: I see Fritz already provided that info.
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Not quite! There's Chuck! (CellarDweller)
Well, I've been to America (from Sweden) 4 times in the last three years, entirely because of Brokeback. Never been there before.
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You guys are amazing! 15 states! I don't have a lot of time to travel right now but someday I would love to go to Canada to see where the movie was actually filmed. Has anyone been there?
Yep. Plenty of Brokies have been there!
And we left reminders of our presence in many places.
I've done that tour twice, in 2009 and 2011.
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The weird thing is, almost none of us knows a personal friend or acquaintance who is also a Brokie.
That is weird, Ellen, I don't think that ever occurred to me before, but it is definitely the case!
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Thanks for all the cordial welcomes. I'm so glad to be here.
Something has really been bothering me about Jack's death. I don't know if this is the right thread to discuss this so I apologize if it has been discussed before. Is it just me or does anyone else think the father-in-law and his cronies had something to do with Jack's death? Remember the man who came into the combine office to ask Jack's father-in-law if that was the bull rider? If Jack had a reputation of being gay maybe that man knew and told the father-in-law. In rural Texas in the 1980s (even today) homosexuality is not only frowned upon but not tolerated. The body was cremated. Cremation was/is not a tradition of the Pentecostal belief system. Was his body cremated to destroy evidence?
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I think the thing to do here is to go back to the source material which is the short story by Annie Proulx. In the original text Lureen's father had died, and she had inherited the business long before Jack died.
As that was the original intention of the creator of the story, it seems unlikely that the screenwriters Larry McMurtry and Diana Ossana would want to change that intention.
For what it's worth, it was doubt about Jack's death that first brought me to this forum, all those years ago.
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Even though though father-in-law died before Jack I think he was behind it somehow --- OR --- Maybe his cronies waited until the father-in-law died to kill Jack so he wouldn't be around to be blamed.
Just thinking out loud. I need a glass of wine.
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That is weird, Ellen, I don't think that ever occurred to me before, but it is definitely the case!
Yes, that is definitely true.
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Students at York Univ. in Toronto are discussing Brokeback Mountain:
http://imaginedlandscapes.wordpress.com/ (http://imaginedlandscapes.wordpress.com/)
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Students at York Univ. in Toronto are discussing Brokeback Mountain:
http://imaginedlandscapes.wordpress.com/ (http://imaginedlandscapes.wordpress.com/)
Very interesting!
And I'm pretty sure the picture on the site is of the artwork Nimis, which in itself is highly interesting.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nimis_(artwork)#Nimis
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Check it out! Out West is now on Facebook.
http://www.facebook.com/OutWestattheAutry/ (http://www.facebook.com/OutWestattheAutry/)
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The following is in response to a discussion over in the "were they gay " thread. I feel my comments are probably more appropriate here since they are not specific to the topic of the sexual identification of Jack and Ennis.
I suppose I should begin by stating that I am not a literary critic though it is certainly a passion. If anything, I am a theater critic, at least as an avocation, in that I have amassed a certain amount of experience and knowledge as a dramaturge and some understanding of the various elements,(acting, direction, scenic design, lighting, choreography) necessary to mount a decent interpretation of theatre literature.
The problem, of course , is that theatre is a collaborative effort. A poor production due to direction, acting, or a combination of these and other factors of O’Neill’s “Long Days Journey Into Night”, Miller’s “The Death of a Salesman” , Williams’ “The Glass Menagerie”, or Sondheim’s “Follies”, can obliterate the genius of the underlying work.
Literature, on the other hand, represents an objective and direct communication between the author and the reader. It is, of-course, not purely objective, (what is?), since the reader naturally brings to the table personal knowledge, experience, prejudice, and all manner of psychological baggage.
However, with the exception of painting and the visual arts, literature is the only artistic form that intimately and directly bonds the creator with the consumer and it is incumbent upon the consumer to suppress the subjective in order to arrive at an objective analysis. It is the human ability to do so, or at least to make the attempt, that separates us from the balance of the our natural environment.
Since the time of Plato various “theories’ of literary criticism have been formulated. The most prevalent are:
Historical/Biographical
Moral/Philosophical
Mimetic
Formalistic/New Critical
Psychological
Mythological/Archetypal/Symbolic
Feminist
Reader-Response
What, then, is the purpose of literary criticism? I believe it is threefold:
(1) To help us resolve a question, problem, or difficulty in the reading.
Why is Ennis so tentative, while Jack so much more open to his sexuality? What does Ennis really “know”? What does Jack really remember? Why are we told of Jack’s “hard scene” with his father? To whom are we to place blame for the plight of Ennis and Jack: society? Jack and Ennis themselves?, A combination of the two?
(2) To help us decide which is the better of two conflicting
readings
A formalist approach might enable us to choose between a reading which sees the dissolution of society in Lord of the Flies as being caused by too strict a suppression of the "bestial" side of man and one which sees it as resulting from too little suppression. We can look to the text and ask: What textual evidence is there for the suppression or indulgence of the "bestial" side of man? Does Ralph suppress Jack when he tries to indulge his bestial side in hunting? Does it appear from the text that an imposition of stricter law and order would have prevented the breakdown? Did it work in the "grownup" world of the novel?
(3) To enable us to form judgments about literature.
One of the purposes of criticism is to judge if a work is any good or not. For instance, we might use a formalist approach to argue that a John Donne poem is of high quality because it contains numerous intricate conceits that are well sustained. Or, we might use the mimetic approach to argue that The Goat: Or Who is Sylvia is a poor play because it fails to paint a realistic picture of the world.
In my experience, I have found that the Formalist/New Criticism theory of criticism to be the most productive starting point in evaluating a piece of literature because it emphasizes the actual text and employs, to the extent that this is even possible, a high degree of objectivity in favor of personal or extraneous subjectivity.
The advantage to this critical approach is that it can be performed without much research, and it emphasizes the value of literature apart from its context. This type of literary criticism in effect makes literature timeless. Unfortunately, there are also disadvantages to this approach. For one, the text is viewed in isolation. Formalism ignores the context of the work. This means that, among other things, it cannot account for allusions. Some have argued that the formalist approach reduces literature to nothing more than a collection of rhetorical devices.
And this is the problem with aligning oneself with only one theory of literary critique. Annie Proulx, in BBM, employs at least one, if not more, explicit literary allusions in her telling of the tale. However, is it really necessary for the reader to recognize these allusions in order to understand the story? No it is not. However, by employing other theories , subsequent to first adhering to Formalism, such as Historical/Biographical, one can glean even further insights into the surface texture of the story.
As an example, is it really necessary to have an in-depth knowledge of O’Neill’s personal biography or his affinity to early Freudian theory to grasp the universal truths of “Long Days’ Journey Into Night”? I contend that it is not.
Neither is it incumbent upon the reader to have an acquaintance with “The Aenied” to appreciate the subtle nuances of BBM.
On the other hand, Paul, (and I am not picking on him), invokes the idea of “decoding” a story. Authors, in my experience, strive, sweat, and agonize over clarity of intent and theme. If a story has to be “decoded” then the author has failed and THIS is the value of the Formalist theory of critique. BBM is not included in the study of great American literature due to the subject matter or its purported illusive subtext. It is included for the author’s ability to employ textural structure,metaphor, and character exposition clearly and succinctly within the confines of the short story genre.
Subsequent to an initial analysis of the work, analysis based solely upon the structure of the text, it is always instructive to further one’s understanding by examining the so called “intent” of the author or to further explore the “context” of the work itself.
As an example, BBM, is presented to the reader, (with the obvious exception of the “New Yorker” publication) as the last and penultimate story of “Close Range”, a collection of stories concerning Annie Proulx’s interpretation of a specific time, place, and culture and the effect of all three upon the people who both nurture and perpetuate that culture and the people who are victims of its destructive mythology. (and not just a homophobic mythology).
Placing BBM within this “context” further underscores the validity of the “formalistic” critique as valid. However, that validity must be first supported by the critique and close reading, not by the context, for the work to stand on its own as a worthy addition to the canon of American literature.
Furthermore AP, in the text, exhibits no interest in sexual identification or the Kinsey scale of sexuality but only an intense interest in the destructive effect of intolerance and ignorance upon those who do not conform to a specific code of behavior. There is nothing in the text that supports the idea that BBM is the study or examination of the travails of a self identifying “straight” male “accidently” falling in love or finding pleasure or comfort in sexual congress with a member of the same sex.
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^^^^^^^^^
Food for thought, Gary. Many thanks. :)
~ On the other hand, Paul, (and I am not picking on him), invokes the idea of “decoding” a story. Authors, in my experience, strive, sweat, and agonize over clarity of intent and theme. If a story has to be “decoded” then the author has failed and THIS is the value of the Formalist theory of critique. BBM is not included in the study of great American literature due to the subject matter or its purported illusive subtext. It is included for the author’s ability to employ textural structure,metaphor, and character exposition clearly and succinctly within the confines of the short story genre.
Incidentally, my parenthetical reference to “decoding” was a tentative alternative suggestion for “interpreting” the story.
But I accept your point.
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Incidentally, my parenthetical reference to “decoding” was a tentative alternative suggestion for “interpreting” the story...
Greetings, Paul,
A couple of quick questions for you:
__Would you be so kind as to contrast the idea of 'decoding' a story as opposed to 'interpreting' one?
__Also, why might the casual (non-academic) reader have a need to 'objectively' analyze a work of fiction, such as BBM?
(+Maybe I should address the latter question elsewhere, but IMO your responses to technical questions seem to be a bit more comprehensible. -No offense intended to anyone.)
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Even though though father-in-law died before Jack I think he was behind it somehow --- OR --- Maybe his cronies waited until the father-in-law died to kill Jack so he wouldn't be around to be blamed.
Just thinking out loud. I need a glass of wine.
My 2 cents -- I don't think L.D. Newsome would want to make his daugher a widow, or to hurt Bobby by killing his father. Despite personal animosities, I think family ties run deep, and in a way that is another lesson of Brokeback. Even the marriages of closeted men cause pain to a rippling amount of people in the community
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Greetings, Paul,
A couple of quick questions for you:
__Would you be so kind as to contrast the idea of 'decoding' a story as opposed to 'interpreting' same?
__Also, why might the casual (non-academic) reader have a need to 'objectively' analyze a work of fiction, such as BBM?
(-Maybe I should address the latter question to garyd, but - no offense intended - your responses to technical questions seem to me to be a bit more comprehensible.)
Reminder that the discussion is public! Otherwise it would be taking place via PM.
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Reminder that the discussion is public! Otherwise it would be taking place via PM.
Thanks Ellen.
Also, let's remember that replies should remain on topic. Thanks!
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Reminder that the discussion is public! Otherwise it would be taking place via PM.
-Should we avoid references to other members, altogether, as well? - or only posts directed toward other members, or..?
(BTW, is there a written rule on that, or is it simply customary?)
@Chuck,
I'm confused: What is the actual topic?
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AZ, good morning.
It is a general discussion. If and when you are asked to take it to another thread, probably you will do so very nicely, so don't worry about it. You'll know when that happens.
Please, if you have to comment on the modding, PM Chuck or me.
Thanks!
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-Should we avoid references to other members, altogether, as well? - or only posts directed toward other members, or..?
(BTW, is there a written rule on that, or is it simply customary?)
@Chuck,
I'm confused: What is the actual topic?
The actual topic is General discussion of the movie or short story, topics that may not have a specific thread here. My post was just a reminder that of that. Gary's post stated he posted here because he felt his post didn't fit into "Were They Gay". That's fine. However, if the discussion should wander back in that direction, then it would need to go back to "Were They Gay".
Regarding the post to Paul, when someone makes a post in that manner, it may be assumed by the readers that you are only expecting replies from Paul. In an open thread, replies can be placed by anyone and if you truly only want replies from Paul, then it should take place via PM. that's all. You don't have to avoid mentioning people's names. Just bear in mind that you may get other replies from other members.
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-Okay, word up! &
Thanks to you both for the clarifications!!!
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My 2 cents -- I don't think L.D. Newsome would want to make his daugher a widow, or to hurt Bobby by killing his father. Despite personal animosities, I think family ties run deep, and in a way that is another lesson of Brokeback. Even the marriages of closeted men cause pain to a rippling amount of people in the community
I like the way the movie shows LD as a bully but like most bullies, is relatively easy to put down, as did Jack when standing up to him at last. I don't see the film character as having anything in him to suggest he could kill or arrange a killing.
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I like the way the movie shows LD as a bully but like most bullies, is relatively easy to put down, as did Jack when standing up to him at last. I don't see the film character as having anything in him to suggest he could kill or arrange a killing.
I agree. I remember all the times I've seen that movie in a theater, that scene almost always got a response from the audience, mostly cheers.
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Yes. Now that I think about it I don't think he would have arranged to have Jack killed.
Did anyone notice in the FNIT scene Ennis says "What are you doin?" as Jack starts to make the moves on him. Also in the bar when he meets Cassie she puts her feet in his lap and Ennis says "What are you doin?" Why did Ennis find it hard to believe that someone wanted to show affection towards him?
Also at the bar he says "Earlier today I was castrating calves". Does Ennis himself feel castrated? Does he feel so bad that he rejected Jack's plea's to "live the sweet life" over the years that he feels he does not deserve to have a relationship with anyone else? Do you think he was about to allow himself to finally "live the sweet life" with Jack?
Back to topic about "Were they gay?". Yes I think they both knew they were gay from childhood. Ennis just would not let himself believe it.
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Did anyone notice in the FNIT scene Ennis says "What are you doin?" as Jack starts to make the moves on him. Also in the bar when he meets Cassie she puts her feet in his lap and Ennis says "What are you doin?" Why did Ennis find it hard to believe that someone wanted to show affection towards him?
I'm not so sure that it was a matter of not taking affection, Kim, but more a matter of something happening that he just wasn't used to. And let's face it, affection didn't have much to do with FNIT, did it? >:D
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I'm not so sure that it was a matter of not taking affection, Kim, but more a matter of something happening that he just wasn't used to. And let's face it, affection didn't have much to do with FNIT, did it? >:D
I think Andy's right. FNIT really didn't have any affection, did it? That was established in SNIT.
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Oh, well, Literary Criticism has again re-appeared. IMO, it is a legitimate reference point, to a degree, as to exploring the text of the SS and the author's intentions, which are what keep the discussion threads going. And going :D.
I have noticed the types of LC are tilted towards the English speaking theories (although Gary did list Formalism, in there somewhere). The Russians, though, from 1890-1920 made huge jumps in LC, and these are often unknown to the West. [Along, also, with Russian literature's influence. Hemingway, if not plagiarizing, at least copied the writing style of Babel. And AP, if not influenced by Hemingway's terse, rough prose, has some similarities in her own.]
Anyway, for those who want to look at BbM and the controversies, from a new perspective, they might try Boris Eichenbaun's "How Gogol's 'Overcoat' is Made". There can be found a persuasive argument that, once choosing a format, the format generates the text. Especially in...short stories.
I would also suggest much confusion arises from the (to me) ridiculous idea that an author is writing to readers. There's more, IMO, a continuum. At one extreme, there are poets and authors, who are writing just to express themselves (some American poets come to mind) and their works are discovered after their deaths. Author writing to author. Then there are authors to one other person (one of Shakespeare's sonnets?). And at the other end of the continuum, author persuading the reader (Tom Paine, in his pamphlets).
When we look at AP's short story, then, and am sorry if this adds even more complexity, we might consider where she was, on that continuum.
Finally, (ack!)...some creative people are trying to keep up with the Joneses, and so, might be somewhat competing with their sub-set. The sub-set of that small circle of the creatively endowed.
IMO, it is for these reasons, along with others, that there is a great energy in the BbM discussion threads. There's more there.
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Wow! That is wonderful. I would love to meet you guys in person sometime. This movie is so powerful. I have NEVER felt this way about any movie in my life.
Hiya Kim!
Don't know if you saw this thread. It's a "read only" thread, a vault if you will, of group shots of various gatherings that contained 5 or more "Brokies".
Feel free to check out the thread, each pic has the date of the gathering, as well as (if possible) a list of those who attended.
Brokeback Gatherings: Group Shots: Read Only (http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=38355.0)
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Those are always good to see again, Chuck!
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http://www.guardian.co.uk/artanddesign/2012/jan/20/hollywood-costumes-exhibition-victoria-albert-museum
Article about an exhibition of Hollywood costumes scheduled for October 20, 2012 to January 13, 2013 at the Victoria & Albert Museum in London. The Shirts are mentioned at the beginning of the article but it's not clear that they will be on display.
The blog below clarifies the situation:
http://www.wetdarkandwild.com/2012/01/brokeback-mountain-heading-for-londons.html
This is a chance for European Brokies to see them and seems like a nice opportunity for a few people to meet in London later this year.
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Incidentally, my parenthetical reference to “decoding” was a tentative alternative suggestion for “interpreting” the story.
Greetings, Paul,
A couple of quick questions for you:
__Would you be so kind as to contrast the idea of 'decoding' a story as opposed to 'interpreting' one?
If you’d like me to explain the difference between ‘interpreting’ and ‘decoding’ a work I’ll do my best, but I must point out that in my original post the latter word was not only parenthetical but tentatively questionable.
Here goes: I suggested “decoding” because Proulx’s short story is not as straightforward as it at first appears.
“Interpretation” suggests that a personal slant on the work’s meaning could be involved, whereas “decode” is a more objective, impersonal approach.
This seemed to me to be what New Criticism was about—that basically a work’s merit/meaning is inherent in and of itself—and that neither an author’s intentions nor a reader’s personal emotional responses (avoiding self-identification with the story’s characters allows one to understand what is going on, to paraphrase Sandy) are necessary when determining its merits and its meaning.
The (informational) clues are there in Proulx’s text, but need to be (if you like) “unscrambled,” if the story’s meaning is to be perceived for what it is.
We’ve done this in amusingly ways on Photo Caps, too, where Proulx’s “meaning” has been twisted to often beyond-bizarre levels. ;D
__Also, why might the casual (non-academic) reader have a need to 'objectively' analyze a work of fiction, such as BBM?
Please first define a “casual (non-academic) reader.” :)
Secondly, why are you asking me? ;D
(+Maybe I should address the latter question elsewhere, but IMO your responses to technical questions seem to be a bit more comprehensible. -No offense intended to anyone.)
I don’t view myself as being particularly gifted with technical expertise, or being more "comprehensible" :D than anyone else—but thank you for the compliment. :)
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Thanks, Paul; You're awesome!
I'll just make one comment, it doesn't make sense that a reader's "personal emotional responses" should need to be suppressed when reading a work of fiction, unless the reader needs to channel the author to "divine' the meaning of the story. Who really cares what she thinks about the story? Like DO says you write and you release it into the 'wild', it's no longer yours.
You're right, we do over-analyze a lot on this forum, as if we are trying to get inside of the author's head. But then why don't we have a need to, say, get into Da Vinci's head, to appreciate the beauty of the Mona Lisa? -- or delve into Beethoven's tortured mind, to appreciate the joy of his Ninth Symphony, or, wonder what God was thinking when he created sunsets...?
Outside of academia, I wonder if there really is a proper place for literary criticism...(?)
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Thanks, Paul; You're awesome!
People will say we’re in love, Stan. ;D ;D ;D
I'll just make one comment, it doesn't make sense that a reader's "personal emotional responses" should need to be suppressed when reading a work of fiction, unless the reader needs to channel the author to "divine' the meaning of the story. Who really cares what she thinks about the story? Like DO says you write and you release it into the 'wild', it's no longer yours.
Five things here:
a) “Personal emotional responses” are valid. “Self-identification” with fictional characters is a different matter.
b) “Suppression” suggests a reader is ruled by his/her emotions, and is unable to be objective. See point a).
c) A reader doesn’t need to “channel” an author. The text exists in its own right.
d) Some people delighted, once upon a time, in pointing out what Proulx said (and still does) after her story was published.
e) Childbirth can be painful, but one must move on when the cord is cut.
You're right, we do over-analyze a lot on this forum, as if we are trying to get inside of the author's head. But then why don't we have a need to, say, get into Da Vinci's head, to appreciate the beauty of the Mona Lisa? -- or delve into Beethoven's tortured mind, to appreciate the joy of his Ninth Symphony, or, wonder what God was thinking when he created sunsets...?
I don’t think I suggested over-analysis was problematic; I for one have better things to do than “get inside” an author’s/painter’s/composer’s head—their works are sufficient enough, without any of that other silly stuff.
As for God and sunsets, well, that’s best answered on PhotoCaps—thanks for the prompt. ;D
But your question was probably rhetorical? 8)
Outside of academia, I wonder if there really is a proper place for literary criticism...(?)
Do you mean a place that’s as “proper” as the world of “academia?
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~snip~Outside of academia, I wonder if there really is a proper place for literary criticism...(?)
It seems proper and appropriate whenever works of literature are being discussed, no matter the context.
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The blog below clarifies the situation:
http://www.wetdarkandwild.com/2012/01/brokeback-mountain-heading-for-londons.html
I'm not sure it clarifies things that well:
"It's the same outfits from the cosy embrace, or at least versions
of them that were used during the filming."
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I’m unsure where to post this, Chuck and Ellen, as it’s not really about BBM, but thought it’d fit nicely here.
If not, it can be moved elsewhere. :)
http://www.theage.com.au/lifestyle/mummy-how-are-babies-made-20120128-1qn3i.html
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It seems proper and appropriate whenever works of literature are being discussed, no matter the context.
I guess my rhetorical question was more about the usefulness of literary criticism... I'm finding that not everyone agrees as to the value of literary criticism, including many prominent authors, such as Proulx...
Stephen J. Joyce, grandson of James Joyce, at a 1986 academic conference of Joyceans in Copenhagen, said, “If my grandfather was here, he would have died laughing ... Dubliners and A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man can be picked up, read, and enjoyed by virtually anybody without 'scholarly guides,' theories, and intricate explanations, as can Ulysses, if you [can ignore] all the hue and cry."
And, he questioned if anything is added to the legacy of Joyce's art, by the 261 books of literary criticism stored by the Library of Congress. He summed up by saying that "academics are people who want to brand this great work with their mark... I don’t accept that."
Vladimir Nabokov argued that good readers don't read books -- and particularly literary masterpieces --"for the academic purpose of indulging in generalizations."
Etc.
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People will say we’re in love, Stan. ;D ;D ;D
-I am so not worthy, Paul...
(...)
a) “Personal emotional responses” are valid. “Self-identification” with fictional characters is a different matter.
b) “Suppression” suggests a reader is ruled by his/her emotions, and is unable to be objective. See point a).
c) A reader doesn’t need to “channel” an author. The text exists in its own right.
(...)
I don’t think I suggested over-analysis was problematic; I for one have better things to do than “get inside” an author’s/painter’s/composer’s head—their works are sufficient enough, without any of that other silly stuff.
;D
Thanks, Paul, and you're welcome (for the PC prompt).
__Proulx, in the TMR interview,
- Interviewer: What, above all else, do you want your readers to take away with them after reading your works?
Proulx: The [work] should take us, as readers, to a vantage point from which we can confront our human condition, where we can glimpse something of what we are... [It] should somehow enlarge our capacity to see ourselves as living entities in the jammed and complex contemporary world.
-Above all else reading her work should be about making it real and personal.
-Stan
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And, he questioned if anything is added to the legacy of Joyce's art, by the 261 books of literary criticism stored by the Library of Congress. He summed up by saying that "academics are people who want to brand this great work with their mark... I don’t accept that."
Vladimir Nabokov argued that good readers don't read books -- and particularly literary masterpieces --"for the academic purpose of indulging in generalizations."
Why should we accept Stephen Joyce's opinion about literary criticism? Being Joyce's grtandson doesn't confer any particular insights. Funny, Nabokov did himself engage in generalizations when he taught at Cornell (and when he wrote and reviewed). However, there is nothing academic about the process of generalizing. It's done everywhere. Is literary criticism useful? I guess only to the extent that thinking is useful, even though the Republican primaries are showing how little some people care about thinking. When we finish with literary criticism, we can start on proof texting.
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Why should we accept Stephen Joyce's opinion about literary criticism? Being Joyce's grtandson doesn't confer any particular insights. Funny, Nabokov did himself engage in generalizations when he taught at Cornell (and when he wrote and reviewed). However, there is nothing academic about the process of generalizing. It's done everywhere. Is literary criticism useful? I guess only to the extent that thinking is useful, even though the Republican primaries are showing how little some people care about thinking. When we finish with literary criticism, we can start on proof texting.
When do we get to the nit-picking??
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Yeah, facts do get in the way of opinions. :D
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Why should we accept Stephen Joyce's opinion about literary criticism? Being Joyce's grtandson doesn't confer any particular insights. Funny, Nabokov did himself engage in generalizations when he taught at Cornell (and when he wrote and reviewed). However, there is nothing academic about the process of generalizing. It's done everywhere. Is literary criticism useful?...
-I see your point, Sandy.
I wouldn't read the critics of the critics too closely, either; just not good work.
Yeah, facts do get in the way of opinions. :D
-But does fiction get in the way of fact..? >:D :D
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-But does fiction get in the way of fact..? >:D :D
I think our deconstructionist friends require it. ;D
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(...)
a) “Personal emotional responses” are valid. “Self-identification” with fictional characters is a different matter.
b) “Suppression” suggests a reader is ruled by his/her emotions, and is unable to be objective. See point a).
c) A reader doesn’t need to “channel” an author. The text exists in its own right.
(...)
I don’t think I suggested over-analysis was problematic; I for one have better things to do than “get inside” an author’s/painter’s/composer’s head—their works are sufficient enough, without any of that other silly stuff.
;D
Thanks, Paul, and you're welcome (for the PC prompt).
???
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__Proulx, in the TMR interview,
- Interviewer: What, above all else, do you want your readers to take away with them after reading your works?
Proulx: The [work] should take us, as readers, to a vantage point from which we can confront our human condition, where we can glimpse something of what we are... [It] should somehow enlarge our capacity to see ourselves as living entities in the jammed and complex contemporary world.
A novel response, indeed. :D
-Above all else reading her work should be about making it real and personal.
It's not the same as self-identification with her fictional characters, though...
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I am afraid I don't know how this fits in with literary criticism, but it does, I think support Annie Proulx's words, when watching a film, reading a book, listening to a piece of music or looking at a painting, I want to engage with something that will enhance my life, and inform me of something new about the human condition.
If it doesn't do that, count me out.
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Well said, Jess (as usual).
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I am afraid I don't know how this fits in with literary criticism...
I wasn’t talking about literary criticism, I was saying that a reader’s self-identification with an author’s fictional characters differs from a reader relating to a work on a “real and personal” level (at least that’s what I think Stan meant when he wrote “... reading her work should be about making it real and personal.”)
... but it does, I think support Annie Proulx's words, when watching a film, reading a book, listening to a piece of music or looking at a painting, I want to engage with something that will enhance my life, and inform me of something new about the human condition....
No argument from me about that; but, unless I’m mistaken, you seem to be suggesting that I disagreed.
I was referring to an earlier comment of Sandy’s about something Nabokov said, that one shouldn’t use (fictional) characters as personal emotional surrogates.
It’s not the same as experiencing art forms in the hope of enhancing one’s life, or acquiring new knowledge of the human condition.
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I wasn't suggesting anything, Paul, just saying what my attitude to works of art is.
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I wonder if anyone would be kind enough to compare and contrast what it means to 'relate' to a character in a story, with what it means to 'self-identify' with that character...(:-\ ?)
(I relate best to the character Ennis del Mar as a straight male who accidentally (fortuitously?) discovered his inner gay self and ended uo falling in love with a guy... I don't think that I 'covet' Ennis, per se, and, (although he is quite the analog of Mack) I'm fairly certain that I don't love the character, literally, as AP finally admitted that she does. -FWIW )
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(I relate best to the character Ennis del Mar as a straight male who accidentally (fortuitously?) discovered his inner gay self and ended uo falling in love with a guy... I don't think that I 'covet' Ennis, per se, and, (although he is quite the analog of Mack) I'm fairly certain that I don't love the character, literally, as AP finally admitted that she does. -FWIW )
OK! Consider this my kindness (as you requested.)
You relate to Ennis del Mar as a straight male who accidentally discovered his inner gay self. Your interpretation is highly personal, and it seems to many in the discussions with you, to be beyond personal, even proprietary.
There are many people on the forum who identify exactly with Ennis, as much as you do, and those people are -- gay.
Ennis is a character as much for us as he is for you. Fair to say, I think, that most people on this forum don't experience Ennis as a straight male who accidentally discovered his inner gay self, even though that is what happened to you (as you have told us.)
Then, it's also fair to say that when we look toward the source (Annie Proulx) and we read how she got the idea for the story (wondering about a man who might be "country gay," which refers to location and rural culture)-- and that she has also said the story is about destructive rural homophobia (and never hinted at bisexuality) -- our interpretations of her words are valid.
Sure there is more to say about this, but bottom line --
just because Ennis is gay, doesn't mean you have to be.
Just because we think (along with the creators of the story) that Ennis is gay, doesn't mean you have to be. It's really okay!
Just because Ennis is gay, it doesn't have to be anyone's personal mission to try to convince the rest of the world he isn't gay, just because you identify with his story.
If Ennis is gay, that is really no threat to you.
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(I relate best to the character Ennis del Mar as a straight male who accidentally (fortuitously?) discovered his inner gay self and ended uo falling in love with a guy... I don't think that I 'covet' Ennis, per se, and, (although he is quite the analog of Mack) I'm fairly certain that I don't love the character, literally, as AP finally admitted that she does. -FWIW )
Let me see. Hmmm. Ennis is a straight guy who also has an inner gay self, but he's really straight because his inner gay self isn't on the outside? Or he's straight when he isn't gay? Or he's both straight and gay, but not gay? <rubs temples to avert headache> Hmmm. He loves Jack and has sex with him while treating women not only indifferently, but poorly, but he's not gay?
That's the picture of a closeted, conflicted, self-loathing gay man.
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Let me see. Hmmm. Ennis is a straight guy who also has an inner gay self, but he's really straight because his inner gay self isn't on the outside? Or he's straight when he isn't gay? Or he's both straight and gay, but not gay? <rubs temples to avert headache> Hmmm. He loves Jack and has sex with him while treating women not only indifferently, but poorly, but he's not gay?
That's the picture of a closeted, conflicted, self-loathing gay man.
...with bells on.
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Why is it so difficult to get a straight answer to this question?
I wonder if anyone would be kind enough to compare and contrast what it means to 'relate' to a character in a story, with what it means to 'self-identify' with that character.
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I think Ennis was just glad to have a friend he enjoyed being around. They respected each other and quickly became very close friends. They had a lot in common. Jack was probably the first person Ennis felt comfortable with in his life and Ennis admired him. On Brokeback the boys were both under 20 years old at the peak of their sexuality. It just kind of happened.
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If Ennis is gay, that is really no threat to you.
Hi, Ellen,
-Certainly not.
Moreover, by the same token, the characters' orientations are really no threat to anyone, although you might think so based upon the belligerence that I have fielded, recently, for simply defending my opinion.
-Stan
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Ennis was also a person that society deemed was "a straight peg that had to be fitted into a round hole," so there was a strong reaction from people who were not gay in any way, but who empathised none the less.
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Why is it so difficult to get a straight answer to this question?
OK! Consider this my kindness (as you requested.)
You relate to Ennis del Mar as a straight male who accidentally discovered his inner gay self. Your interpretation is highly personal, and it seems to many in the discussions with you, to be beyond personal, even proprietary.
There are many people on the forum who identify exactly with Ennis, as much as you do, and those people are -- gay.
Ennis is a character as much for us as he is for you. Fair to say, I think, that most people on this forum don't experience Ennis as a straight male who accidentally discovered his inner gay self, even though that is what happened to you (as you have told us.)
And so what part of the question did you not get an answer to? Not only from me but from many others who also "identify" with Ennis, but who also know they are not actually Ennis?
We used to have two members here who called themselves "ImJackshesEnnis" and her girlfriend, "ImEnnisshesJack" and we could all deal with the metaphor fairly easily. Even though they were women.
That was relating to the characters.
AND OMG where is Ennis del Mar, that member from Denver, his real name is Adam. He even owns the green pickup truck you have no doubt seen pictures of. Adam was (is) gay.
He identified with Ennis.
Now, that is my personal response.
**************************
The modly response, for the general discussion thread, is that "were they gay" is really one subject and probably ought to go back to that thread.
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Here he is! Can't help it! EDelMar (Adam), he darn near became Ennis! I met him at Auntie's BBQ and also in Wyoming at the book fair where we saw Annie Proulx. I have stood in the back of his truck for my own photo-op. Here is one of his early posts (from before it was against the rules to post more than one pic per frame, heaven forgive us.)
Now this is self-identifying with Ennis. But it's by no means the only way to do it.
Here we go... me on left; Jack on right.
-Ennis
(https://ultimatebrokebackforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mountwashington.com%2Fwyoming%2Fphoto-1.jpg&hash=a2fdbd60e47d001799080d1c7811bb807cfa5772)
(https://ultimatebrokebackforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mountwashington.com%2Fwyoming%2Fphoto-2.jpg&hash=64c14798408708323fc8caf389e4be3dc5c77942)
(https://ultimatebrokebackforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mountwashington.com%2Fwyoming%2Fphoto-3.jpg&hash=1c43a6cdd64a218ca3a3977459acb88be018d916)
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Now this is self-identifying with Ennis. But it's by no means the only way to do it.
I do it like this :D
(https://ultimatebrokebackforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi275.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fjj282%2FSanFranciscoJohn%2FImg_5899.jpg&hash=522ac2155686d2608d966b3901bc6715a569b99e)
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Woot! I wuz thinking about that, glad you posted it!
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LOL John! ;D
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Love the pics of Ennis' truck that you posted, Ellen!
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Yeah, those pics of the truck really bring back pleasant memories!
Not sure if I ever saw those pictures of Dave (Jack) before.
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Thanks, Ellen, Your Awesome-ness! :-* ;D
hehehehe I don't believe you but a part of me likes this anyway. ;D
+ I don't suppose that the guy in the pictures believes that he is the incarnation of Ennis, the way one I met in Emory, Texas believes that he is indeed Jesus Christ...
Well, he had us going for a while, posting from an Ennis point of view. But then he just really wanted to show us his truck, so we got to know him better. :)
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You're "awesome" because you really crack me up (much the way Paul does)!
+Incidentally, I did this PC cap in Dec-2010. I have no idea why I decided to make it, or where the idea came from...
(https://ultimatebrokebackforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi606.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Ftt142%2Fazbbm%2Ftruck-auction.gif&hash=a8bf4b186bf6382370439c468d663bf4e4a42a5c)
1966 FORD F250. Restored and rebuilt to original factory specifications.
Vinyl interior, reverse chrome wheels, radio, side mirrors, ashtray, chrome trailer hitch.
Call Ennis (307) 555-1212.
The layout was made using the 'Newspaper Clipping Generator' website.
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I wonder if anyone would be kind enough to compare and contrast what it means to 'relate' to a character in a story, with what it means to 'self-identify' with that character...
I’ll do my best to give you a straightforward answer, Stan, and keep it “neutral,” if I may, without any sexual-orientation connotations.
But first I’ll attempt to untangle the issues involved.
Back in the “Were they Gay” thread Sandy wrote that “Nabokov once said that in reading literature, one should never identify with the characters because, in essence, literature is not a virtual reality game or an emotional surrogate, but an art form.”
This was, I think, a fair interpretation (and expansion) of Nabokov’s actual statements about what he described (in his Lectures on Russian Literature) as The Good Reader.
In summary, and I quote, such a reader’s “approach to a work of fiction is not governed by those juvenile emotions that make the mediocre reader identify himself with this or that character and ‘skip descriptions.’ The good, the admirable reader identifies himself not with the boy or the girl in the book, but with the mind that conceived and composed that book ... The admirable reader is not concerned with general ideas; he is interested in the particular vision [of the writer].”
Well, there’s some interesting ideas, there, I think. :D
You ask for a comparison between “relating to” and “self-identifying with” fictional characters.
In my Reply #1653 on Page 111 I wrote that “Personal emotional responses” are valid. “Self-identification” with fictional characters is a different matter.
I’ll now expand upon that.
While “relating to” and “self-identification with” characters could seem to be similar in meaning, my understanding is that there’s a subtle difference.
To relate to a character is to empathise with (to have ‘personal emotional responses' to) his/her situation, to understand and feel sympathy for that character’s feelings; but to self-identify means that the reader associates the character with him/herself, almost as if the writer has written about the circumstances/situations/feelings of the (self-identifying) reader, which is, of course, a nonsense.
Jess wrote earlier (on “Were they Gay”), and I paraphrase, that BBM’s characters were Proulx’s inventions, and what they do, feel and say is what she decided they did, felt and said.
Which brings me back to the issue of self-identification, and to Sandy’s comments that “the story is fixed,” and if we attempt to “identify with the characters and project [our] own feelings onto those characters” we run the risk of “turning the story into an unhealthy emotional surrogate for our emotional states and ignoring the role the emotions play in the characters' motivations, actions, etc. [as decided by the author] in the story.”
Which is unlike a real life, where flexibility, the unforeseen and the unexpected (not to mention chaos theory and/or the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle—who would have thought quantum mechanics would be relevant to BBM?) are always a part of our existence.
Jess and I also agreed that “relating to” (or engaging with) an art form (in literature/music/visual arts) can be beneficial when the experience is life-enhancing, when it enables one to gain fresh insight into the “human condition,” which is not the same as self-identification with the work. (How does one self-identify with a painting, or a concerto, anyway?)
• The Nabokov quote was the closest I could find to what Sandy wrote; but I could be wrong.
• Proulx’s story is about two Caucasian men who have an ongoing sexual and emotional relationship for twenty years, and it seems to me that self-identification with Jack and/or Ennis would automatically disbar just about everyone else who wasn’t white, male and homosexual. :o
• Although I said I'd be "straightforward," I wonder, now, whether I was. ::)
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Thank you, Paul for clarifying the issue.
Just a couple of notes, reiterating my position only once, here, and then I'll bow out.* :)
While “relating to” and “self-identification with” characters could seem to be similar in meaning, my understanding is that there’s a subtle difference....[To] self-identify means that the reader associates the character with him/herself, almost as if the writer has written about the circumstances/situations/feelings of the (self-identifying) reader, which is, of course, a nonsense...
Simply 'relating' seems to be inconsistent with Proulx' idea of the ultimate take-away of her works: i.e., "the [work] should take us...to a vantage point from where we can glimpse something of what we are...from which we can confront our human condition, ... enlarge our capacity to see ourselves..."
Her wish for her readers seems to be much more enveloping, embracing, or highly personal than just merely 'relating' to her works...
(...) BBM’s characters were Proulx’s inventions, and what they do, feel and say is what she decided they did, felt and said.
...“the story is fixed,” and if we attempt to “identify with the characters and project [our] own feelings onto those characters” we run the risk of “turning the story into an unhealthy emotional surrogate for our emotional states and ignoring the role the emotions play in the characters' motivations, actions, etc. [as decided by the author] in the story.”
-Well, AP didn't seem to think so as she rather 'dropped to her knees' over HL's interpretation of Ennis del Mar:
- Critics have been shouting "Oscar!" over [HL's] interpretation of the shy, repressed, volatile, and inarticulate Ennis...
Proulx herself is overwhelmed. "Heath Ledger erased the image I had when I wrote it.... How did this actor get inside my head so well? He understood more about the character than I did. This isn't nice for a 70-year-old woman to say, but it was a skullfuck."- Guardian UK
-Those are the author's words. Notice that AP admits that HL understood Ennis better than she, the very author of the story, knew him, and I do believe her. So, there's a whole lot of empty space between what the author wrote and what we can read into his character... AP and the screen artists wrote the framework for BBM, then "released it into the wild," as DO says, for HL and the rest of us to realize the story and its characters as we will.
No, I'm not advocating complete immersion in the character right down to the 'chaps & spurs' or anything as slavishly silly as that. And although I'm not a psychologist, I would hardly consider it "unhealthy" for us to realize the characters from our own unique vantage point(s), or, in defining them, to grant ourselves at least the same 'artistic license' taken by the screen artists.
F.W.I.W.
-Stan
+ ETA a bit of imo. ;)
*It'll be amusing to watch 'literary freedom' being hammered down to a small lead ball. :D
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I’ll do my best to give you a straightforward answer, Stan, and keep it “neutral,” if I may, without any sexual-orientation connotations.
But first I’ll attempt to untangle the issues involved.
Back in the “Were they Gay” thread Sandy wrote that “Nabokov once said that in reading literature, one should never identify with the characters because, in essence, literature is not a virtual reality game or an emotional surrogate, but an art form.”
This was, I think, a fair interpretation (and expansion) of Nabokov’s actual statements about what he described (in his Lectures on Russian Literature) as The Good Reader.
In summary, and I quote, such a reader’s “approach to a work of fiction is not governed by those juvenile emotions that make the mediocre reader identify himself with this or that character and ‘skip descriptions.’ The good, the admirable reader identifies himself not with the boy or the girl in the book, but with the mind that conceived and composed that book ... The admirable reader is not concerned with general ideas; he is interested in the particular vision [of the writer].”
Well, there’s some interesting ideas, there, I think. :D
You ask for a comparison between “relating to” and “self-identifying with” fictional characters.
In my Reply #1653 on Page 111 I wrote that “Personal emotional responses” are valid. “Self-identification” with fictional characters is a different matter.
I’ll now expand upon that.
While “relating to” and “self-identification with” characters could seem to be similar in meaning, my understanding is that there’s a subtle difference.
To relate to a character is to empathise with (to have ‘personal emotional responses' to) his/her situation, to understand and feel sympathy for that character’s feelings; but to self-identify means that the reader associates the character with him/herself, almost as if the writer has written about the circumstances/situations/feelings of the (self-identifying) reader, which is, of course, a nonsense.
Jess wrote earlier (on “Were they Gay”), and I paraphrase, that BBM’s characters were Proulx’s inventions, and what they do, feel and say is what she decided they did, felt and said.
Which brings me back to the issue of self-identification, and to Sandy’s comments that “the story is fixed,” and if we attempt to “identify with the characters and project [our] own feelings onto those characters” we run the risk of “turning the story into an unhealthy emotional surrogate for our emotional states and ignoring the role the emotions play in the characters' motivations, actions, etc. [as decided by the author] in the story.”
Which is unlike a real life, where flexibility, the unforeseen and the unexpected (not to mention chaos theory and/or the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle—who would have thought quantum mechanics would be relevant to BBM?) are always a part of our existence.
Jess and I also agreed that “relating to” (or engaging with) an art form (in literature/music/visual arts) can be beneficial when the experience is life-enhancing, when it enables one to gain fresh insight into the “human condition,” which is not the same as self-identification with the work. (How does one self-identify with a painting, or a concerto, anyway?)
• The Nabokov quote was the closest I could find to what Sandy wrote; but I could be wrong.
• Proulx’s story is about two Caucasian men who have an ongoing sexual and emotional relationship for twenty years, and it seems to me that self-identification with Jack and/or Ennis would automatically disbar just about everyone else who wasn’t white, male and homosexual. :o
• Although I said I'd be "straightforward," I wonder, now, whether I was. ::)
Just a small point, I think it is possible to identify with Jack and Ennis, even if one isn't Caucasian, white, male, and homosexual. The feelings of being an outcast are common to many people and groups, the striving to fit into a social group that doesn't know or understand the "real you" but sees only a stereotype, is a very common emotion, and one that is shared with both Jack and Ennis.
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Paul,
You did find the source of my Nabokov allusion. And it's true that I expanded on it in a psychological direction (that stuff about emotional surrogates and their being unhealthy).
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Just a small point, I think it is possible to identify with Jack and Ennis, even if one isn't Caucasian, white, male, and homosexual. The feelings of being an outcast are common to many people and groups, the striving to fit into a social group that doesn't know or understand the "real you" but sees only a stereotype, is a very common emotion, and one that is shared with both Jack and Ennis.
Not a small point, IMO, Jess.
Empathy with outcasts or even those unlike ourselves is the glue that keeps us from destroying the human race, one segment at a time.
It's also, I believe, one of those sources of the differing interpretations of BbM, including a primary one, the theme of universal love vs. RDH. My own empathy for Ennis as a broken man who had had a glimpse of life, far outweighed any gender liberation issues. But how or in which category we empathize, in the long run, is not all that important, so long as we DO have empathy for others. Or that's how I see what's important.
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I'm somewhat new to this forum and I'm sure you have already seen this. It's the transcript of the movie. The most important nugget of info is what was said in the SNIT scene. Enjoy.
http://www.bodybuildingreviews.net/brokeback/
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^^^
that may be what was written as dialogue, but I don't think that's what Jake said in the shot they used in the movie...
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Actually, as you say morrobay, it is what is written in this transcript, but I agree this is not what was said in the tent.
Austin Girl, there is a book "story - to- screenplay" that gives a different version of the screenplay, and then there are "final" versions of the screenplay (so to speak) and then there is what actually made it to the screen.
This is the disclaimer at the beginning of the link you posted:
"Final screenplay dialogue with relevant action, transcribed from film on DVD 5/2006. Some interpretations of speech are my own and others may not agree. "
I remember reading this some time back and I think the author did a good job!
I haven't looked at the elk scene here but "wouldn't want the forest service catching us with no elk" was probably the most difficult line for me to hear, ever (after the "woohoo" elk shooting, and so forth.)
Anyway, re SNIT I'm in the "s'aright, s'aright," camp, don't believe neither of the guys ever said "I'm sorry," and sadly (or possibly luckily) for you that is another one of those dead horse subjects-- so much so that we put up a poll --some people really want the "sorry" to be there and some people wish Jack said it but even more people wish Ennis said it!
I think you have been to SNIT thread so you know where the discussion is.
:)
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I'm in the "It's all right, it's all right" camp, too...and he says it again after the fight at the trailhead.....always making it all right for Ennis :'(
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I just found this this morning and was all excited because like everyone else I spend hours trying to figure out what was said in SNIT. Just thought this made sense.
Personally I believe Ennis said "I'm sorry" and then Jack said "It's alright. It's alright".
Ennis might have been sorry for just riding off the next morning without saying anything. Maybe Jack was already in the tent when Ennis got back that night and Ennis had to eat alone.
Just a thought.
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I just found this this morning and was all excited because like everyone else I spend hours trying to figure out what was said in SNIT. Just thought this made sense.
Personally I believe Ennis said "I'm sorry" and then Jack said "It's alright. It's alright".
Ennis might have been sorry for just riding off the next morning without saying anything. Maybe Jack was already in the tent when Ennis got back that night and Ennis had to eat alone.
Just a thought.
If Ennis said I'm sorry (which i don't think he did) i think it would be more for fucking Jack so brutally the night before, rather than for riding off w/o saying anything, imo...
And Jack was stretched out on the hill when Ennis got back...when they both confirmed to the the other that they weren't queer...
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That's right. I forgot they had already talked on the mountain the next day. Yes it probably was "I'm sorry" for the rough sex. I will think Ennis said "I'm Sorry" in that scene until the day I die.
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That's right. I forgot they had already talked on the mountain the next day. Yes it probably was "I'm sorry" for the rough sex. I will think Ennis said "I'm Sorry" in that scene until the day I die.
A lot of people feel that way :)
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Yep, a lot of people feel that way!
anyway I have given all my reasons why I think Ennis isn't the sorrying kind of guy. In the past, I mean. Not here, today. I'm at peace with it.
*************
So, more discussion of the dialogue in SNIT should happen in that thread. If you haven't voted in the poll there, vote and make yourself counted.
Link to:
Second Night in the Tent (http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=2423.3540)
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http://www.wanganuichronicle.co.nz/news/anxious-wait-for-brokeback-mountain/1258300/
Interesting name for a horse
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Brokeback Mountain back at Walmart (USA).
A "Universal 100th Anniversary" edition with an added cardboard case.
(it's the "3 Academy Awards" widescreen DVD)
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Thank you, Paul for clarifying the issue.
Your retrospective edit was appreciated, and the “Thank you,” Stan.
I’ve italicised, in the following, the missing bits from my post, because I believe they were important. ;)
While “relating to” and “self-identification with” characters could seem to be similar in meaning, my understanding is that there’s a subtle difference.
To relate to a character is to empathise with (to have ‘personal emotional responses' to) his/her situation, to understand and feel sympathy for that character’s feelings; but to self-identify means that the reader associates the character with him/herself, almost as if the writer has written about the circumstances/situations/feelings of the (self-identifying) reader, which is, of course, a nonsense.
Simply 'relating' seems to be inconsistent with Proulx' idea of the ultimate take-away of her works: i.e., "the [work] should take us...to a vantage point from where we can glimpse something of what we are...from which we can confront our human condition, ... enlarge our capacity to see ourselves..."
Her wish for her readers seems to be much more enveloping, embracing, or highly personal than just merely 'relating' to her works...
What Proulx meant is to be found in the text, and at no stage (if your quoting of her "idea" is verbatim) did I find the Narrator saying such things.
She’s pretty free and easy when it comes to adding stuff to “explain” what she intended, isn’t she? As if she’d forgotten, pre-publication, to include something or other. ::)
But perhaps what I find most intriguing about your reply is that you’ve completely overlooked my reference to Nabokov’s comment about “mediocre” readers whose “juvenile emotions” make “the reader identify himself with this or that character,” which I felt would have prompted at least some reaction. ;D
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Still going:
Just a couple of notes, reiterating my position only once, here, and then I'll bow out.*[/i] :)
If by your “couple of notes” you mean this:
No, I'm not advocating complete immersion in the character right down to the 'chaps & spurs' or anything as slavishly silly as that. And although I'm not a psychologist, I would hardly consider it “unhealthy” for us to realize the characters from our own unique vantage point(s) ~~~
I was under the impression that you self-identified with EDM because of your personal experiences.
Your comment seems to indicate that a slight sea change has now occurred!
Well done! :)
Again, I’ve reinserted (in italics) the missing words from my quoted post, so that we know who said what.
While I quoted Sandy’s words I paraphrased Jess’s (credit where due!) to ensure correct scansion, if you have any quibbles with their content I suggest you take them up with the sources.
I’m reluctant to act as their mouthpieces.
Jess wrote earlier (on “Were they Gay”), and I paraphrase, that BBM’s characters were Proulx’s inventions, and what they do, feel and say is what she decided they did, felt and said.
Which brings me back to the issue of self-identification, and to Sandy’s comments that “the story is fixed,” and if we attempt to “identify with the characters and project [our] own feelings onto those characters” we run the risk of “turning the story into an unhealthy emotional surrogate for our emotional states and ignoring the role the emotions play in the characters' motivations, actions, etc. [as decided by the author] in the story.”
-Well, AP didn't seem to think so as she rather 'dropped to her knees' over HL's interpretation of Ennis del Mar:
- Critics have been shouting "Oscar!" over [HL's] interpretation of the shy, repressed, volatile, and inarticulate Ennis...
Proulx herself is overwhelmed. "Heath Ledger erased the image I had when I wrote it.... How did this actor get inside my head so well? He understood more about the character than I did. This isn't nice for a 70-year-old woman to say, but it was a skullfuck."
-Those are the author's words. Notice that AP admits that HL understood Ennis better than she, the very author of the story, knew him, and I believe her. So, there's a whole lot of empty space between what the author wrote and what we can read into his character... AP and the screen artists wrote the framework for BBM, then “released it into the wild,” as DO says, for HL and the rest of us to realize the story and its characters as we will. [And although I'm not a psychologist, I would hardly consider it “unhealthy” for us to realize the characters from our own unique vantage point(s),] or, in defining them, to grant ourselves at least the same ‘artistic license’ taken by the screen artists.
For goodness’ sake, Stan!
Why would you would think that mentioning a film actor, an author’s (unpredictable? ;D ) response to his interpretation of her fictional character and the shouts of unidentified, therefore anonymous, “critics” (let alone referring to using actors’ once-off, work-for-money efforts as some sort of valid artistic licence/interpretative blueprint for personal expression) would bear any relationship to a discussion of literature.
I’m agog at your changing horses in midstream. :o
PS. I don’t give a hoot what Proulx does or says—a point I’ve made before, although probably not as bluntly, here and there on this forum. :D
PPS. No hard feelings, btw.
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Just a small point, I think it is possible to identify with Jack and Ennis, even if one isn't Caucasian, white, male, and homosexual. The feelings of being an outcast are common to many people and groups, the striving to fit into a social group that doesn't know or understand the "real you" but sees only a stereotype, is a very common emotion, and one that is shared with both Jack and Ennis.
I said earlier, in my answer to Stan’s question, that “identifying” with fictional characters meant that the reader associated him/herself with the character/s, almost as if the author has written about the circumstances/situations/feelings of the reader.
You note a connection between Proulx’s characters and “outcasts,” those who are seen as “stereotypes” rather than as individuals.
The sense in which you use the word appears to me to be figurative, rather than literal, in that you have emotional responses to Jack’s and Ennis’s situation which affect you in a personal manner.
I would hesitate to say that I personally identify with either of them, but I certainly can relate to their predicament (in an abstract, intellectual way, because our respective situations differ) and even feel sympathy for them.
Putting it another way, I empathise with these fictional men, but I do not identify with them.
We just seem to differ regarding meanings, Jess. Only a small point, as you say.
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Paul,
You did find the source of my Nabokov allusion. And it's true that I expanded on it in a psychological direction (that stuff about emotional surrogates and their being unhealthy).
Thanks Sandy. It took me quite a while to track it down. :D
But I liked how you developed Nabokov’s idea.
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Brokeback Mountain back at Walmart (USA).
A "Universal 100th Anniversary" edition with an added cardboard case.
(it's the "3 Academy Awards" widescreen DVD)
The website lists prices ranging from $2.99 (video on demand) to $14.96 for "(Blu-ray) (BD Live) (Widescreen)".
I have the both the full screen and wide screen versions, and remember an interesting discussion her on full vs wide (my own is for the full screen version -- a lot depends on the size of your TV screen). That was one of the more interesting discussions.
http://www.walmart.com/search/search-ng.do?search_query=Brokeback+Mountain&ic=16_0&Find=Find&search_constraint=4096
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^^^^
Do you see the crucial difference between them? (This is a completely serious question) I think the tent scenes are of special interest.
I only have the wide-screen version.
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^^^^
Do you see the crucial difference between them? (This is a completely serious question) I think the tent scenes are of special interest.
I only have the wide-screen version.
I don't know what the difference is, can someone explain? And which is your favorite/why?
thanks
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Hi, Paul,
Sorry, bud, no sea change for me. -I don't care what AP thinks about her story, either.
However, AP speaking about her work, overall, is hardly the same thing as serving up interpretations of her holy scriptures for the readers to swallow whole..
2. I like to regard actors as artists in their own right --in some cases they are highly skilled professionals, the interpreters of great literature* and other writings -- rather than, cynically, as something akin to an unskilled itinerant worker for hire that one sometimes finds standing on the street corner holding a cardboard sign that reads,"Will Work For Food," etc.
3. I hardly think AP forgot anything, pre-publication (I know you are jesting with that bit), in fact, I'd like to have a peek at her notes for BBM to understand why she chose not to include any info regarding their the boys' pubescent sexual histories, yet whole sentences were wasted on washing horse blankets at a car wash in Signal; or nitnoy-ing with Linda Higgins, over where Brokeback was located, etc.
4. Re Nabokov, you were off-point: The Nabokov quote was not about the reader"identifying himself with characters, etc", it was in regard to the questionable value of literary criticism outside of academia.
:)
-Stan
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~snip`4. Re Nabokov, your were off-point: The Nabokov quote was not about the reader"identifying himself with characters, etc", it was in regard to the questionable value of literary criticism outside of academia.
-Stan
No, it was actually how a reader should approach reading a piece of literature if s/he is ever to do so in an insightful way. Had nothing to do with academic versus nonacademic contexts.
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I don't have a comparison for Brokeback, but I found a Star Wars comparison with three different scenes. The pics on the right are of the full screen DVD, while on the right we have wide screen.
(https://ultimatebrokebackforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdesmond.imageshack.us%2FHimg447%2Fscaled.php%3Fserver%3D447%26amp%3Bfilename%3Dwsvfs9gt.jpg%26amp%3Bres%3Dmedium&hash=fcdc4f46c0ecb3ecdeb228a485367f52365037be)
Here is a link that gives a detailed description, with another example.
http://www.moviesbystarlight.com/widescreen/widescreen.htm
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Re Reply #1711, no, I was referring to MY earlier quote of Nabokov, and why I invoked it.
Vladimir Nabokov argued that good readers don't read books -- and particularly literary masterpieces --"for the academic purpose of indulging in generalizations."
I hadn't gotten to the "self-identifying" issue at that point.
Interestingly the balance of the quote appears to show Nabokov encouraging his students to 'self-identify' with the author, and viscerally so.. (?!)
- "I have tried to make of you good readers who read books not for the infantile purpose of identifying oneself with the characters, and not for the adolescent purpose of learning to live, and not for the academic purpose of indulging in generalizations.. I have tried to teach you to read books for the sake of their form, their visions, their art. I have tried to teach you to feel a shiver of artistic satisfaction, to share not the emotions of the people in the book, but the emotions of its author -- the joys and difficulties of creation."
-Ta. :-\
But, this is not what Proulx envisioned for her own readers -- i.e., to make her work real and personal. "The [work] should take us...to a vantage point from where we can glimpse something of what we are [not who SHE is]...from which we can confront our human condition,... enlarge our capacity to see ourselves [rather than to see HER]..."
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I don't have a comparison for Brokeback, but I found a Star Wars comparison with three different scenes. The pics on the right are of the full screen DVD, while on the right we have wide screen.
(https://ultimatebrokebackforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdesmond.imageshack.us%2FHimg447%2Fscaled.php%3Fserver%3D447%26amp%3Bfilename%3Dwsvfs9gt.jpg%26amp%3Bres%3Dmedium&hash=fcdc4f46c0ecb3ecdeb228a485367f52365037be)
Here is a link that gives a detailed description, with another example.
http://www.moviesbystarlight.com/widescreen/widescreen.htm
Oh! I never thought of that!
I'm going to have to check and see what version I have now...
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^^^^
Do you see the crucial difference between them? (This is a completely serious question) I think the tent scenes are of special interest.
I only have the wide-screen version.
I remember a discussion about this way "back in the day" and I could swear Yvette saw something in the full screen that was not in the wide screen. Something at the bottom of the screen. (their feet in FNIT or SNIT?) I didn't think it possible but later discovered or was told by someone here, that the filming ratio was such that the full screen version might indeed contain visual information not visible in the wide screen.
Sorry that is all I can remember and I don't even remember the thread in which the discussion occurred.
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Hi, Paul,
Sorry, bud, no sea change for me. -I don't care what AP thinks about her story, either.
But not, apparently, what she thought about the film. ;)
However, AP speaking about her work, overall, is hardly the same thing as serving up interpretations of her holy scriptures for the readers to swallow whole..
Tell that to the marines.... :D
(Sorry. Couldn’t resist a sly reference to molluscs.)
2. I like to regard actors as artists in their own right --in some cases they are highly skilled professionals, the interpreters of great literature* and other writings -- rather than, cynically, as something akin to an unskilled itinerant worker for hire that one sometimes finds standing on the street corner holding a cardboard sign that reads,"Will Work For Food," etc.
No problem with that, but we need to remember what we were talking about, which was literature.
An actor, no matter how skilled in interpretation and in embodying a character, is still paid to “do the work” and to use a secondary source (the film version) to support discussion about the primary source (the literary text) is reverse or circular logic, no matter how many authors drop to their knees in adulation over some commercial film “version” of their work.
Actually, I rather like your idea of “workers for hire.” :)
3. I hardly think AP forgot anything, pre-publication (I know you are jesting with that bit), in fact, I'd like to have a peek at her notes for BBM to understand why she chose not to include any info regarding their the boys' pubescent sexual histories, yet whole sentences were wasted on washing horse blankets at a car wash in Signal; or nitnoy-ing with Linda Higgins, over where Brokeback was located, etc.
Maybe semi-facetious, actually...
4. Re Nabokov, you were off-point: The Nabokov quote was not about the reader"identifying himself with characters, etc", it was in regard to the questionable value of literary criticism outside of academia.
That wasn’t my reading of it.
PS Have you taken a page out of Dame Nellie Melba’s “Famous Final Farewells” book? ;D
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Hi, Paul,
(...)we need to remember what we were talking about, which was literature...
It would probably be a good idea if we could define what 'the BBM experience' is, in toto.
For me, Brokeback Mountain is hardly a 'piece of literature' for academic study.-- AP's craft is 'literary' to be sure, and all due regard is given to her, but I think the BBM experience far exceeds its literary underpinnings.
(IOW, I didn't intend to imply that AP's opinions about the corpus of her work are of no consequence, whatsoever, just that Ms. Proulx doesn't define my experience of BBM, in toto.)
Re the source level (primary vs. secondary) as you already know, as a movie-going lay person, I regard the final cut of the film and what is said and done within it by the actors as my primary source, the framework of BBM --i.e., the screenplay, the SS, the reviews and other dissertations-- as 'secondary' sources.
An actor, no matter how skilled in interpretation and in embodying a character, is still paid to “do the work”
-That's a safe assumption. ;) Although, the inference seems to be, because actors get paid for their work that somehow their interpretations are/not...?
PS Have you taken a page out of Dame Nellie Melba’s “Famous Final Farewells” book?
LMAO!!! :D -Too funny, you are! :D
Okay,bud -- I'm out of here for sure this time! ;D
<XXX>!!
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I remember a discussion about this way "back in the day" and I could swear Yvette saw something in the full screen that was not in the wide screen. Something at the bottom of the screen. (their feet in FNIT or SNIT?) I didn't think it possible but later discovered or was told by someone here, that the filming ratio was such that the full screen version might indeed contain visual information not visible in the wide screen.
Sorry that is all I can remember and I don't even remember the thread in which the discussion occurred.
My experience has been that the wide screen version chops off a little on all sides. However, we have a 27" TV, and people with very large TV screens might find the wide screen version better. Some full screen films get an elongated "conehead" look on big screens.
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Re Reply #1711, no, I was referring to MY earlier quote of Nabokov, and why I invoked it.
~snip~
I have tried to make of you good readers who read books not for the infantile purpose of identifying oneself with the characters, and not for the adolescent purpose of learning to live, and not for the academic purpose of indulging in generalizations.. I have tried to teach you to read books for the sake of their form, their visions, their art. I have tried to teach you to feel a shiver of artistic satisfaction, to share not the emotions of the people in the book, but the emotions of its author -- the joys and difficulties of creation."-Ta.
You are confusing (at least) two strands of thought. Nabokov says that the good reader should (i) not identify with the characters of the story and (ii) should not approach a story with bland academic generalizations but in search of the details. He doesn't characterize identifying oneself with the characters as an academic approach, but a juvenile one. Sharing the emotions of the author is not anywhere near the same thing as identifying with one of the author's characters.
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Thanks, Sandy,
Actually, I'm not confused, and yes I understand that there are two threads of thoughts in Mr. Nabokov's entreaty... I was selectively using one to make my point, above, if that was okay...
As I see it, Nabokov intended to say that 'literary criticism' which relies (heavily) upon generalizations, is an academic indulgence. -Which is why many, including AP, question the value of literary criticism outside of academia.
Sharing the emotions of the author is not anywhere near the same thing as identifying with one of the author's characters.
I don't literally 'self-identify' with the characters of AP's stories, although I certainly relate well to the plights of AP characters (more so than any others I've read about... My own personal pov enabled me to absorb the movie without being prejudiced by a priori knowledge, e.g., the SS, disdainful friends, etc., and to avoid the ensuing 'entrenchments.' -I believe you understand.)
+ I'm still unsure why Nabokov wanted his students/readers to (surreptitiously) self-idenitfy with the author over the characters (if one must)...?
For example, in regard to the DE, Nabokov would have us recursively bask in the emotions of Annie Proulx, basking in her own emotions while listening to a CD of Charlie Haden's "Spiritual" as she shivered, struggling to make the scene work ..? - Hm.. I don't kno-o-owww....
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Thanks, Sandy,
Actually, I'm not confused, and yes I understand that there are two threads of thoughts in Mr. Nabokov's entreaty... I was selectively using one to make my point, above, if that was okay...
Exactly. Instead of attempting to understand what Nabokov is saying, you concentrate on one specific phrase in an attempt to provide substantiation for your own total misunderstanding of his work and your own tedious, to the point of bizarre, prejudice of “academia”.
The quote upon which you have attached yourself as a parasite upon a whale, is lifted, out of context, from one of the very last of a whole volume of lectures. These lectures center on seven literary masterpieces which Nabokov uses as the basis for assisting us in appreciating the art of literature and, more to the point, to enhance the pleasure derived from the simple act of reading. Perhaps your pleasure vessel already overflows.
It is Nabokov’s hope that he has opened our eyes and our minds to a whole new and vastly expanded appreciation for the pure act of reading. The quote from his final lecture underscores his hope that we have learned to more fully appreciate the art and the creation of the author NOT, necessarily ,the author himself. He could not care less about the author’s biography or what the author might think or have to say outside the context of the work itself.
Read the damn book.
Or, just continue to prattle away.
It’s up to you.
+ I'm still unsure why Nabokov wanted his students/readers to (surreptitiously) self-idenitfy with the author over the characters (if one must)...?
For example, in regard to the DE, Nabokov would have us recursively bask in the emotions of Annie Proulx, basking in her own emotions while listening to a CD of Charlie Haden's "Spiritual" as she shivered, struggling to make the scene work ..? - Hm.. I don't kno-o-owww....
He wants no such thing.
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You are confusing (at least) two strands of thought. Nabokov says that the good reader should (i) not identify with the characters of the story and (ii) should not approach a story with bland academic generalizations but in search of the details. He doesn't characterize identifying oneself with the characters as an academic approach, but a juvenile one. Sharing the emotions of the author is not anywhere near the same thing as identifying with one of the author's characters.
-BTW, in the context of that (full) quote, who exactly was Nabokov's 'audience'..? --these "good readers" he refers to -- i.e., were they his own students of writing, or, was he generally addressing the not-so-average critical reader, or..?
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Thanks, Sandy,
Actually, I'm not confused, and yes I understand that there are two threads of thoughts in Mr. Nabokov's entreaty... I was selectively using one to make my point, above, if that was okay...
Exactly. Instead of attempting to understand what Nabokov is saying, you concentrate on one specific phrase in an attempt to provide substantiation for your own total misunderstanding of his work and your own tedious, to the point of bizarre, prejudice of “academia”.
The quote upon which you have attached yourself as a parasite upon a whale, is lifted, out of context, from one of the very last of a whole volume of lectures. These lectures center on seven literary masterpieces which Nabokov uses as the basis for assisting us in appreciating the art of literature and, more to the point, to enhance the pleasure derived from the simple act of reading. Perhaps your pleasure vessel already overflows.
It is Nabokov’s hope that he has opened our eyes and our minds to a whole new and vastly expanded appreciation for the pure act of reading. The quote from his final lecture underscores his hope that we have learned to more fully appreciate the art and the creation of the author NOT, necessarily, the author himself. He could not care less about the author’s biography or what the author might think or have to say outside the context of the work itself.
Read the damn book.
Or, just continue to prattle away.
It’s up to you.
How refreshing it is to see such candour, but which remains respectful of others’ opinions.
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+ I'm still unsure why Nabokov wanted his students/readers to (surreptitiously) self-identify with the author over the characters (if one must)...?
For example, in regard to the DE, Nabokov would have us recursively bask in the emotions of Annie Proulx, basking in her own emotions while listening to a CD of Charlie Haden's "Spiritual" as she shivered, struggling to make the scene work ..? - Hm.. I don't kno-o-owww....
He wants no such thing.
In an earlier post I wrote that Nabokov believed that a Good Reader’s “approach to a work of fiction is not governed by those juvenile emotions that make the mediocre reader identify himself with this or that character and ‘skip descriptions.’ The good, the admirable reader identifies himself not with the boy or the girl in the book, but with the mind that conceived and composed that book ... The admirable reader is not concerned with general ideas; he is interested in the particular vision [of the writer].”
Although I didn’t say so at the time, it did appear to me that there was some ambiguity in Nabokov’s suggestion that such a reader identifies “with the mind that conceived and composed [the] book ... [that] he is interested in the [writer’s] particular vision.”
It seems to me (and I could be mistaken) that that could be what Stan suggested—to understand an author’s mind/vision one should consider everything about the writer (I’d draw the line, though, at whatever music he/she chose to listen to)—although my own interpretation was that the reader should avoid self-identification with a novel’s fictional characters and, instead, in order to avoid a subjective (mis)interpretation, focus on the writer’s “vision” as presented solely by the text.
I haven’t read Nabokov’s Lectures, relying instead on what was available on the internet, but my understanding is that he does go on a bit at times, and to separate the “wheat from the chaff” can be problematic; and one’s interpretation may turn out to be off-kilter. It’s important, though, that perception of what the “wheat” may be is consistent with Nabokov’s overall thrust.
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For interest's sake, here's the quote to which I referred earlier:
“Just as the universal family of gifted writers transcends national barriers, so is the gifted reader a universal figure, not subject to spatial or temporal laws. It is he—the good, the excellent reader—who has saved the artists again and again from being destroyed by emperors, dictators, priests, puritans, philistines, political moralists, policemen, postmasters, and prigs. Let me define this admirable reader. He does not belong to any specific nation or class. No director of conscience and no book club can manage his soul. His approach to a work of fiction is not governed by those juvenile emotions that make the mediocre reader identify himself with this or that character and “skip descriptions.” The good, the admirable reader identifies himself not with the boy or the girl in the book, but with the mind that conceived and composed that book. The admirable reader does not seek information about Russia in a Russian novel, for he knows that the Russia of Tolstoy or Chekhov is not the average Russia of history but a specific world imagined and created by individual genius. The admirable reader is not concerned with general ideas; he is interested in the particular vision. He likes the novel not because it helps him to get along with the group (to use a diabolical progressive-school cliche); he likes the novel because he imbibes and understands every detail of the text, enjoys what the author meant to be injoyed, beams inwardly and all over, is thrilled by the magic imageries of the master-forger, the fancy-forger, the conjuror, the artist. Indeed of all the characters that a great artist creates, his readers are the best. (“Russian Writers, Censors, and Readers”)”
—Vladimir Nabokov, Lectures on Russian Literature
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^^^ Excellent!
'The good, the admirable reader identifies himself not with the [Jack] or the [Ennis] in the book, but with the mind [of Anne Proulx who] conceived and composed that book...enjoys what [Annie Proulx] meant to be enjoyed, beams inwardly and all over, is thrilled by the magic imageries of the master-forger, the fancy-forger, the conjuror, the artist..."
When I think of the plot and character developments within the BBM story the ''fancy-forger'' Annie Proulx rarely even crosses my mind.
I think about how Ennis treated Jack, how Aguirre treated the both of them, how Lureen and then OMT interacted with hia son and with Ennis, etc.; what their objectives are -- not what AP was thinking, although that would be interesting to know, just as a curiosity...So, I don't entirely agree with Mssr. Nabokov.
I do think that literary criticism with its hackneyed generalizations has its place (say, in the basements of college libraries, in coffee shops where weird poetry is often recited, or even catacombs), and not deprive us 'literary serfs' of our enjoyment of a work from our own unique vantage points.
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Just a mouse squeak, and then back to reading the flow of posts here. I kind of understand how Nabokov got pulled into you guys' discussion of how to experience BbM. But he was Russian (even if he lived mostly in the West), and the Russian literati can be maddening.
And maybe it's just me, but in Paul's quote from his lectures, above, he (Nabokov) seems to be contradicting himself. First he says the "admirable reader" is subservient to no one, and then proceeds, IMO, to start re-enslaving, by his own definitions. Which was it Vladimir Vladimirovitch? (Not that he's available to answer).
Should we ignore AP, take her into account, or found serious discussion primarily on her own often baffling contradictions?
Well, that's my only squeak, except to say that the references do seem to be important to the approaches, and, frankly, am proud there are people in this latest discussion who know their stuff. It may cause some heated posts, but each of you has brought the matter of the reader's approach to a well-deserved new level. Myself, I have no firm opinions, but enjoy reading the discourse; thanks !
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^^^ Excellent!
Thanks, Stan. I thought it'd help those who were unfamiliar with what the subject actually was.
'The good, the admirable reader identifies himself not with the [Jack] or the [Ennis] in the book, but with the mind [of Anne Proulx who] conceived and composed that book...enjoys what [Annie Proulx] meant to be enjoyed, beams inwardly and all over, is thrilled by the magic imageries of the master-forger, the fancy-forger, the conjuror, the artist..."
When I think of the plot and character developments within the BBM story the ''fancy-forger'' Annie Proulx rarely even crosses my mind.
My favourite bits are:
• No director of conscience and no book club can manage his soul; and
• He likes the novel not because it helps him to get along with the group (to use a diabolical progressive-school cliche).
Why is that, I wonder to myself? ::)
I think about how Ennis treated Jack, how Aguirre treated the both of them, how Lureen and then OMT interacted with hia son and with Ennis, etc.; what their objectives are -- not what AP was thinking, although that would be interesting to know, just as a curiosity...So, I don't entirely agree with Mssr. Nabokov.
You could very well partly disagree with him—but I could very well partly disagree with you. :D
I do think that literary criticism with its hackneyed generalizations has its place ...
You just had to say that, didn't you! ;D
...(say, in the basements of college libraries, in coffee shops where weird poetry is often recited, or even catacombs)...
i.e. @ Brokie reunions? :D
...and not deprive us 'literary serfs' of our enjoyment of a work from our own unique vantage points.
I refuse to be labelled, let alone as a "literary serf," thank you very much! ;)
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Just a mouse squeak, and then back to reading the flow of posts here. I kind of understand how Nabokov got pulled into you guys' discussion of how to experience BbM. But he was Russian (even if he lived mostly in the West), and the Russian literati can be maddening.
And maybe it's just me, but in Paul's quote from his lectures, above, he (Nabokov) seems to be contradicting himself. First he says the "admirable reader" is subservient to no one, and then proceeds, IMO, to start re-enslaving, by his own definitions.
I don’t think he does, actually, Tony.
He first describes the admirable reader as being not subject to spatial or temporal laws, as having no allegiance to nation or class. Then he states positive attributes. Rather than identifying himself with fictional characters, the Good Reader identifies himself with the specific personal vision of the author, as set out clearly in the text, and likes the novel not only because he understands the author’s intentions (as conveyed by the textual details), but because it enriches him, and he’s thrilled by the experience.
What do you think? :)
Which was it Vladimir Vladimirovitch? (Not that he's available to answer).
Should we ignore AP, take her into account, or found serious discussion primarily on her own often baffling contradictions?
Yes, no and no, methinks.
Well, that's my only squeak, except to say that the references do seem to be important to the approaches, and, frankly, am proud there are people in this latest discussion who know their stuff.
It may cause some heated posts...
e.g. (https://ultimatebrokebackforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi412.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fpp201%2Frasalgethi_photo%2Femoticons%2F43db59a4.gif&hash=263e73f1f8e64cf4a5989a6fa8f00470857f255e)
;D
...but each of you has brought the matter of the reader's approach to a well-deserved new level. Myself, I have no firm opinions, but enjoy reading the discourse; thanks !
And thank you, Tony (on behalf of myself), for your courteous (and appreciated) response.
PS A mouse can do more than squeak.... :D
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PS A mouse can do more than squeak.... :D
Many thanks, but that is all I intended to do. I am reverting to reading, only. It's what I enjoy, here, more :)...
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-BTW, in the context of that (full) quote, who exactly was Nabokov's 'audience'..? --these "good readers" he refers to -- i.e., were they his own students of writing, or, was he generally addressing the not-so-average critical reader, or..?
They were not students of composition; it was a lecture class of literature held, I believe, in Goldwin Smith Hall. His introductory essay on good readers was addressed to, well, readers.
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~snip~I don't literally 'self-identify' with the characters of AP's stories, although I certainly relate well to the plights of AP characters (more so than any others I've read about... My own personal pov enabled me to absorb the movie without being prejudiced by a priori knowledge, e.g., the SS, disdainful friends, etc., and to avoid the ensuing 'entrenchments.' -I believe you understand.)
Stan,
Reading your posts in Were They Gay? strongly suggests otherwise vis-a-vis identification with Ennis. Just saying. I'm not sure how having read the short story prejudices one's view of the movie since they essentially tell the same story. In fact, one piece of advice to Nabokov's good reader is to re-read so you can begin to reconstruct the esthetic world the author was creating. FWIW.
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And here I thought this thread was for discussing Brokeback Mountain.
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you're right, they are on a tangent, but still touching BBM with their little toes.
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Those toes are so small they're totally invisible to me.
If a newbie comes here to discuss Brokeback for the first time, they will probably wonder what the hell this place is, and we'll never see them again.
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Those toes are so small they're totally invisible to me.
If a newbie comes here to discuss Brokeback for the first time, they will probably wonder what the hell this place is, and we'll never see them again.
I'm sure an old hand like you will help them out. ;) It's the Brokie way.
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I'm sure an old hand like you will help them out. ;) It's the Brokie way.
Of course I would if they posted in here - and several others too, I'm sure - but you're missing my point.
With the last several pages of non-BBM discussion, a newbie would most likely be totally discouraged from posting here in the first place.
And in order to not make this thread even more confused: I'm hereby withdrawing from this particular discussion.
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So let's refresh over the past few pages - a discussion I watch as a mod but don't care to enter as a Brokeback fan.
One member made a point about Nabakov and an approach to reading that can be applied to BBM.
In fact BBM has been mentioned in most of the posts except the very last few. And even without caring all that much, I was kind of interested in which four of the reader's characteristics (listed by gary) someone would eventually be brave enough to pick.
It's okay to discuss this here as long as we continue to relate it to BBM.
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Stan,
Reading your posts in Were They Gay? strongly suggests otherwise vis-a-vis identification with Ennis*. ... I'm not sure how having read the short story prejudices one's view of the movie since they essentially tell the same story.**
*Only in the sense of growing up straight and then falling in love with a member of the same sex later in life.- Ennis fell early.
**Had I read the SS prior to seeing the movie I would have assumed thanks to the Prologue that Ennis was indeed a gay man.
+ Just saying, is right: Iin the WTG? we went around the coffeepot, at least three times :P -- there's no need to re-argue my position, here.
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So let's refresh over the past few pages - a discussion I watch as a mod but don't care to enter as a Brokeback fan.
One member made a point about Nabakov and an approach to reading that can be applied to BBM.
In fact BBM has been mentioned in most of the posts except the very last few. And even without caring all that much, I was kind of interested in which four of the reader's characteristics (listed by gary) someone would eventually be brave enough to pick.
It's okay to discuss this here as long as we continue to relate it to BBM.
LOL, well I'm the one who brought the topic over here. I didn't really know where to go with it and I knew it did not belong on WTG?.
Sonja's concern about "newbies' somehow reminded me of Jack "whipping babies" and we certainly don't want that!
The topic is really a general discussion of literature and literature appreciation. Attempting to continually link it specifically to BBM would become tedious and, well, artificial.
Maybe it belongs over in Structure of the Film and Film editing and we could simply add structure of the SS.
Or we can just move on.
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What about the Books section?
If you want to continue the topic and can suggest a descriptive name for the thread (probably not including the name of Nabakov, since no doubt other men and women of letters would eventually be quoted) I will start a thread there.
ETA: Upon hearing no second motion from the floor, and receiving one PM that said, basically "Let be", let's continue to discuss Brokeback Mountain here. :)
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What about the Books section?
If you want to continue the topic and can suggest a descriptive name for the thread (probably not including the name of Nabakov, since no doubt other men and women of letters would eventually be quoted) I will start a thread there.
While garyd introduced the issue of literary criticism, I credit Sandy for introducing Nabokov’s ideas about the good reader in the WTG thread:
I noted threads and threads ago that Nabokov once said that in reading literature, one should never identify with the characters because, in essence, literature is not a virtual reality game or an emotional surrogate, but an art form. Adopting such an attitude might help us refrain from the more contentious aspects of the recent exchanges.
(Which became my induction into the WTG thread.)
Nevertheless, I’ve enjoyed the discussion, and wonder why the issue of newcomers possibly being discouraged by its content was even raised. But if they were, so what? There are plenty of other threads available which cater for individuals’ interests. At any time Guests usually outnumber logged-in Users, often in the ratio 2 (or more):1 and not everyone posts anyway, but prefer just to read what’s going on unless something piques their interest, as Tony_ did yesterday, for example. Some members only post only on selected threads, anyway...
The topic could go into Arts & Entertainment > Books, Periodicals & Literature, with its own sub-thread.
Something like “Literary Criticism: Purpose & Method,” as garyd’s post mentioned back on Page 109:
http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=28284.msg2215034#msg2215034
Or would that sound too “academic” for the forum, and for "newcomers?" ;)
ETA: Upon hearing no second motion from the floor, and receiving one PM that said, basically "Let be", let's continue to discuss Brokeback Mountain here. :)
Well, I retrospectively second the motion, if it's not too late. 8)
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... BBM has been mentioned in most of the posts except the very last few. And even without caring all that much, I was kind of interested in which four of the reader's characteristics (listed by gary) someone would eventually be brave enough to pick.
It's okay to discuss this here as long as we continue to relate it to BBM.
I'm okay with that, Ellen.
I don’t know whether I’m “brave,” but I’d select three qualities that a good reader should have:
• imagination
• memory
• some artistic sense
The fourth selection is a little more difficult, but I’d probably choose that the reader:
• preferred a story with action and dialogue (e.g. like BBM) to one with none, rather than having a dictionary.
It's taken me hours tonight to compose these posts. :)
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Okay Paul, I have started the new thread!
Literary Criticism, Purpose and Method (http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=44803.0)
It'll stay open long as y'all can ride it.
ETA: In the new thread I have quoted Gary, Paul, Sandy, AZ, and Tony. But not everything. The last two posts of Gary and Paul (pick four qualities of a reader from this list...) are in the new thread.
*************************************
Back to discussing Brokeback Mountain here.
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(https://ultimatebrokebackforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F2.bp.blogspot.com%2F-TtGJ6xsBLvY%2FTvpoBSf7uNI%2FAAAAAAAAFOg%2FQgUZoPXaoLM%2Fs1600%2Fjeopardy2.jpg&hash=86a25919f19281c17ff51f1f17046c0fdbf406fa)
The categories for the Double Jeopardy round yesterday:
COUNTRY
CONFUSION
MOVIE LINES
THE ELEMENTS
OF STYLE?
SHORT STORY FILL-IN
VOCABULARY
HISTORY IS STRANGE
SHORT STORY FILL-IN
$400
Twain: "The _________ Jumping Frog of Calaveras County"
$800
Ambrose Bierce: "An Occurrence At ___ Creek Bridge"
$1200
Annie Proulx: "_______ Mountain"
$1,600
Falkner: "A Rose For ______"
$2000
Flannery O'Connor: "A Good Man Is ____ __ ____"
***
ANSWERS: (or QUESTIONS, rather!)
$400: "What is Celebrated?"
$800: "What is Owl?"
$1200: "What is Brokeback?"
$1600: "What is Emily?"
$2000: "What is Hard To Find?"
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I just had a client who said he was going to participate in a rodeo this weekend. He is going to be in the roping contest. I automatically asked him what the entry fee was and he said this one was $1500 because it was sponsored by some celebrity. I asked him what the average entry fee was and he said $125. I asked him what the fee is for bull riding but he didn't know. Lets say the bull riding fee was $125 too. So in 1963 what would it be? I'm thinking $50. Any thoughts?
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You might want to send a PM to jim.grr, who currently does bull riding. Maybe someone in his rodeo group would know the answer to that question about fees back then.
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I just had a client who said he was going to participate in a rodeo this weekend. He is going to be in the roping contest. I automatically asked him what the entry fee was and he said this one was $1500 because it was sponsored by some celebrity. I asked him what the average entry fee was and he said $125. I asked him what the fee is for bull riding but he didn't know. Lets say the bull riding fee was $125 too. So in 1963 what would it be? I'm thinking $50. Any thoughts?
If the fee maintained an economically proportionate relationship, due to inflation (and other economic factors) it would be something along the line of 'if 2012=$125, then 1963= less than $10,' and that would be the equal to (or slightly less than) Ennis's life savings (two five dollar bills in a coffee can).
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I just thought of something. Maybe Jack travelled south because the rodeo fees might have been cheaper the further south he went. It's still true today. Housing, land, labor, etc. is a lot cheaper in Texas.
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^^^^
You deserve a Brokie rank advancement for that post! It shows your level of dedicated thought. :D
I kinda think it depended on the different shows -- higher fees also mean higher prizes, right?
Whatever the fees were, they had to be somehow affordable to the participants.
I think I agree with you there was more opportunity in Texas for Jack.
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^^^^
You deserve a Brokie rank advancement for that post! It shows your level of dedicated thought. :D
I kinda think it depended on the different shows -- higher fees also mean higher prizes, right?
Whatever the fees were, they had to be somehow affordable to the participants.
I think I agree with you there was more opportunity in Texas for Jack.
Thanks Ellen! I've always wondered why Jack went so far down to Texas.
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I've always wondered why Ellen went so far down to Texas!
;)
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I've always wondered why Ellen went so far down to Texas!
;)
I still drink coffee, though. :D
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Heath was mentioned on Family Guy last night. Peter was in Hollywood working as an agent. He was tired of Tom the news guy hanging around with him and sent Tom to interview Heath Ledger. Tom said he waited and waited for Heath at a cafe but he never came.
I thought this might be an old re-run. But it wasn't. It first aired on 2/12/12.
Kind of distasteful I thought.
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Heath was mentioned on Family Guy last night. Peter was in Hollywood working as an agent. He was tired of Tom the news guy hanging around with him and sent Tom to interview Heath Ledger. Tom said he waited and waited for Heath at a cafe but he never came.
I thought this might be an old re-run. But it wasn't. It first aired on 2/12/12.
Kind of distasteful I thought.
Oh, yes. Very distasteful.
The Family Guy is not a well-respected television show at all. I will never watch it; I did once and was turned off immediately by its content. It has offended many viewers at other times before.
This 2/12/12 episode is not only distasteful; it's disrespectful and downright mean.
(Consider the source: The dumbbell who 'created' it is originally from the state (?) of Rhode Island. Coming from that corrupt state, no wonder it is so distasteful and rotten).
kathy >:(
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Rhode Island is a corrupt state? Why?
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The dumbbell who 'created' it is originally from the state (?) of Rhode Island.
Rhode Islanders don't do states ? The last time I looked, it was one of the original 13.
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What does it mean that I really like FAMILY GUY?
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Lyle I really like FAMILY GUY too. It cracks me up. Slap-stick comedy at it's finest. Maybe they were complementing Health. Maybe they meant something like "Why don't you go interview Cary Grant, Jimmy Stewart, Gregory Peck", etc.
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Or, maybe they were commenting on the stupidity of Peter and Tom Tucker,
a news guy, on not even knowing what's going on in the world. (I missed that
episode.)
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Here is a link to that episode. In the article Health is mentioned in the second to last paragraph.
http://www.tvshowzonline.com/watch-family-guy-tom-tucker-the-man-and-his-dream-online-s10e13/
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What does it mean that I really like FAMILY GUY?
It means that you can laugh, you like to laugh, and you have found an intelligently stoopid show that helps elevate your laugh quotient...and Seth MacFarland is a genius. The higher your intelligence, the more you get out of the show - so, Lyle, if you're getting a lot out of it...
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Or, maybe they were commenting on the stupidity of Peter and Tom Tucker,
a news guy, on not even knowing what's going on in the world. (I missed that
episode.)
Exactly - not only did he wait for Heath to show up at the restaurant (after his death was such a highlight that when it happened that anybody awake in this country knew of his passing), and became so mad that he dissed him, so totally missing the point that Heath wasn't going to show up for lunch, in this plane, anyway, ever again!
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It means that you can laugh, you like to laugh, and you have found an intelligently stoopid show that helps elevate your laugh quotient...and Seth MacFarland is a genius. The higher your intelligence, the more you get out of the show - so, Lyle, if you're getting a lot out of it...
now that's some funny shit...
thank you, doctor
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Lyle I really like FAMILY GUY too. It cracks me up. Slap-stick comedy at it's finest. Maybe they were complementing Health. Maybe they meant something like "Why don't you go interview Cary Grant, Jimmy Stewart, Gregory Peck", etc.
They knew what they were doing - get a cheap laugh. (I wouldn't like to hear another person insulted either). That show is vulgar and coarse and this has been going on since day one).
Well, maybe 'cos I remember when TV was not cheap and vulgar is why I feel this way.
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What does it mean that I really like FAMILY GUY?
I don't know. What does it mean that I've never liked it and think it's vulgar?
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Rhode Island is a corrupt state? Why?
Oh, ellen, I couldn't even begin to tell you how crooked and corrupt it is and has been for so many years! If you 'know' someone and/or have $$$, you'll get off no matter what type of crime was done. RI never should have been a state at all; it's so small that everyone in authority in each city and town knows how to break the law; e.g. "I know someone..." or "I'll fix it...", that sort of thing. And the typical little guy who doesn't know anyone gets the shaft.
Back in colonial days there was talk of it going with MA or CT; this made a lot of sense because the border with CT would have been straight across. Unfortunately, Roger Williams - who was kicked out of MA - practically ran to England, landed there before the proponents of the 'merging' idea did, and got a charter from King Charles I. I wish it had gone with CT.
But it has become so corrupt in everything now - millionaire lawyers in the legislature run the state, not the governor - that it's a joke. Remember when people used to joke about NJ? RI has gone beyond that. Yes, it was one of the original colonies (1636) and even was the first colony to begin revolution against Britain before Lexington and Concord happened, MA. It's really a shame that it's known today for its nastiness.
p.s. If McFarland is a genius (!), I'd like to know where that puts real geniuses like Edison and the rest. Just like the Farrelly brothers, McFarland relies on vulgar, in-the-gutter type 'humor'. OK - it offends me. I have the right never to watch it. Moreover, I don't care to hear Heath's name treated disrespectfully.
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Back in colonial days there was talk of it going with MA or CT; this made a lot of sense because the border with CT would have been straight across. Unfortunately, Roger Williams - who was kicked out of MA - practically ran to England, landed there before the proponents of the 'merging' idea did, and got a charter from King Charles I. I wish it had gone with CT.
The Puritans of Massachusetts kicked him out because he believed in religious freedom.
Roger Williams (c. 1603 – between January and March 1683) was an English Protestant theologian who was an early proponent of religious freedom and the separation of church and state. In 1636, he began the colony of Providence Plantation, which provided a refuge for religious minorities. Williams started the first Baptist church in America, the First Baptist Church of Providence. He was a student of Native American languages and an advocate for fair dealings with Native Americans.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_Williams_%28theologian%29
Too bad he wasn't able to get hold of more land.
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Rhode Island is a corrupt state? Why?
Fofol, you're a Rhode Islander, what do you think? I thought it seemed a lovely place, and as you and our tour guide told us, a lot less corrupt than it was.
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LOL!
From Brokeback to Family Guy to Rhode Island to corruption.
How about we get back to Brokeback? ;D
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Fofol, you're a Rhode Islander, what do you think? I thought it seemed a lovely place, and as you and our tour guide told us, a lot less corrupt than it was.
Fact of the matter is that Rhode Island is no more or less corrupt than any other place: the difference is that we're so small, nobody can get away with anything for too long because everybody knows what's what and who's who, so any trespass against the common good is out in the open rather quickly. We do have a power base that is very comfortable, so comfortable that they occasionally forget about accountability, but they don't get away with it for long because everybody knows everybody else's public business. ...and, when they get caught, as they will, they do jail time. Still and all, no one here is waging rocket attacks on our residential neighborhoods, killing thousands of innocents in the overreaching demand for power and money: we make our corrections in court, not on the deaths of non-combatants, women and children.
This all gives me a greater understanding of the value, to Ennis, of the conversation by the campfire with Jack: that first conversation opened Ennis up (afap) to meeting another person and 'pawing the white out of the moon,' and ultimately to SNIT.
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I thought Rhode Island was a beautiful state, and the particular native that I met when I was there was kind, generous, and a superb guide.
Thanks, Mike! :D :D :D :-*
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...There is one little known fact about Rhode Island that bears particular interest to many Brokies - RI was the final sate to sign the Declaration of Independence (one of my ancestors was in on this), holding out because we were not willing to trust any authority to maintain its distance from political paternalism: RI demanded certain rights which were codified into the Bill of Rights. Check it out - without Roger Williams, without RI's demand for the Bill of Rights, there would be no legal foundation for gay rights, women's rights, or maybe even the right to make a film that seemed unpopular on paper...like Brokeback Mountain which took eight years from story publication to the film's release because the overwhelming majority in 'Hollywood' - the people who create films - 'knew' that it was not produceable because no one would want to see it.
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Oh, ellen, I couldn't even begin to tell you how crooked and corrupt it is and has been for so many years! If you 'know' someone and/or have $$$, you'll get off no matter what type of crime was done. RI never should have been a state at all; it's so small that everyone in authority in each city and town knows how to break the law; e.g. "I know someone..." or "I'll fix it...", that sort of thing. And the typical little guy who doesn't know anyone gets the shaft.
Back in colonial days there was talk of it going with MA or CT; this made a lot of sense because the border with CT would have been straight across. Unfortunately, Roger Williams - who was kicked out of MA - practically ran to England, landed there before the proponents of the 'merging' idea did, and got a charter from King Charles I. I wish it had gone with CT.
But it has become so corrupt in everything now - millionaire lawyers in the legislature run the state, not the governor - that it's a joke. Remember when people used to joke about NJ? RI has gone beyond that. Yes, it was one of the original colonies (1636) and even was the first colony to begin revolution against Britain before Lexington and Concord happened, MA. It's really a shame that it's known today for its nastiness.
p.s. If McFarland is a genius (!), I'd like to know where that puts real geniuses like Edison and the rest. Just like the Farrelly brothers, McFarland relies on vulgar, in-the-gutter type 'humor'. OK - it offends me. I have the right never to watch it. Moreover, I don't care to hear Heath's name treated disrespectfully.
Some people don't know what respect means.
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One of my favorite columnists writes for a Rhode Island newspaper -- Froma Harrop who is on the editorial board of the Providence newspaper.
I live in Texas and I know there is a lot of corruption here. This state spawned Tom DeLay, and we're still dealing with the fallout of his illegal re-districting.
But I also know there are a lot of people here in Texas who are working to make things better on all fronts, politically. We even have our own branch of the Sierra Club. I suspect Rhode Island has its share of good people as well.
And now I know where fofol is from!
**************
Which brings me back (to satisfy chuck! :D ) in a roundabout fashion to hmmm -- the corrupt state of Hollywood? (pun intended) oh, I mean, California. Wait-- Family Guy. No, that's not it-- oh yeah Heath!
Show business is a rough business. I respect really excellent entertainers like Heath, and sadly he is one of the real stars in the universe that didn't navigate the pressures very well.* I am only going on AustinGirl's description, but I agree it sounds disrespectful -- still, not as disrespectful as some of the other things that have been printed in the tabloids about Heath.
* reference Whitney Houston, Amy Whitehouse, Michael Jackson, on and on.
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Oh, yes. Very distasteful.
The Family Guy is not a well-respected television show at all. I will never watch it; I did once and was turned off immediately by its content. It has offended many viewers at other times before.
This 2/12/12 episode is not only distasteful; it's disrespectful and downright mean.
(Consider the source: The dumbbell who 'created' it is originally from the state (?) of Rhode Island. Coming from that corrupt state, no wonder it is so distasteful and rotten).
kathy >:(
What non-corrupt state/country are you from? Maybe Australia, like Heath?
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Apparently "do as I say, not as I do" means nothing in show business.
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As Steve Martin's 1970's comedy album put it so aptly:
Comedy is not pretty.
Most of the time comedy is all in one's own perception.
I always try to see the humor in all things. Why not?
The alternative is to always be offended by something
and with more and more devices available to share "offense"
it is easier than ever.
Do you really think the writers of Family Guy sat around thinking
of how they could be mean and nasty or offensive to Heath Ledger
in that episode? Would it be mean and nasty if they had subsituted
Abraham Lincoln's name? (Seriously, I was watcing a short documentary
last night with a writer, a producer and Dick Cavett, about Dick Cavett's
talk shows in the 60's and 70's and they were talking about an Abraham
Lincoln joke that was almost censored because the network was sitting
around discussing if it was too soon to do a joke like that!) The thing is,
comedy people want people to laugh. And the truth is ANYTHING can
be offensive to someone. How many times did the Smothers Brothers
get in trouble just because they were talking about political things. They
got the most hate mail when they did a comedy segment on gun owners
and gun control. They were inundated with hate mail from people when
David Steinberg did some comedy routines concerning religion. Even the
mention of Vietnam became "you're against our boys in the military." One
of the silliest controversies that Family Guy spawned was recently when a
group of people were highly offended about jokes done about a character
with Downs syndrome. The actress who voiced the character had Downs
syndrome herself. She was highly amused and eventually told everyone
complaining that you just have to lighten up and laugh once in awhile.
"Don't be offended for me," she stated.
Anyway, remember when Brokeback Mountain came out and then the
barrage of jokes began to appear? Were you offended by all of those?
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No. I thought most of them were funny. But I'm not gay.
I was offended by Drew Lashay (or whatever)'s free style cowboy dance on Dancing/Stars when he covered his ass with his cowboy hat. But no one else here seemed to be bothered by it.
Humor, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder.
So behold.
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No. I thought most of them were funny. But I'm not gay.
I was offended by Drew Lashay (or whatever)'s free style cowboy dance on Dancing/Stars when he coered his ass with his cowboy hat. But no one else here seemed to be bothered by it.
Humor, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder.
So behold.
well, that is back to Brokeback. :D
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No. I thought most of them were funny. But I'm not gay.
I was offended by Drew Lashay (or whatever)'s free style cowboy dance on Dancing/Stars when he covered his ass with his cowboy hat. But no one else here seemed to be bothered by it.
Humor, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder.
So behold.
I have, upon occasion, contemplated Mr. Ledger's ass very nearly covered by a cowboy hat. Does this count?
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does anyone happen to have access to the Buzz Image Group vid that they had on their website a few years ago? It was before, during and after of special effects for some scenes and how they filmed the mountains, CGI sheep, the hail storm and a few others....thanks
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Here you go. I love this short, as well as the use of the music from The Shawshank Redemption.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPw5plmkd6Q
If it ever disappears, I've got it downloaded onto my hard drive, too.
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oh Fritz, bless your little ole heart! Thank you
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oh Fritz, bless your little ole heart! Thank you
Anything for a fellow Ninth Ward high school mate!
Do you remember when we at HC used to play Nicholls in football for the Ninth Ward championship?
I think they renamed the school Frederick Douglass when they eliminated the names of all former slaveholders from school names. Including Washington.
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hmmm, maybe you have me mixed up with someone else? My high school was in PA, not LA...or am i missing something? ???
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hmmm, maybe you have me mixed up with someone else? My high school was in PA, not LA...or am i missing something? ???
Oops! I was thinking Nikki for some reason. Sorry!
Good old memory lapse!
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Brokeback fans, don't miss this video. It's a montage done to to "Someone Like You" by Adele. I frankly didn't care for the singing, but the song and images made up for it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHeV8Kun1OM
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I love that song but it seems an odd choice. The lyrics seem to me to about semi-unrequited love - about the singer not being able to get over a breakup but trying to pretend it's OK. It reminds me of Dido's "White Flag" and Dolly Parton's "I Will Always Love You" in sentiment. Beautiful songs, but the subtext is that the love is one-sided, and a singer who can't let go. The video was well done, but I kept feeling that the song didn't fit! Am I missing something - either the meaning of the song, or the meaning of the video? Or was the song meant to be musical accompaniement rather than saying something specific about Jack and Ennis? I've sometimes found that songs remind me of them, even when the lyrics don't really fit.
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It's not my favorite song, but there are some lyrics that fit perfectly...
when Jack drives to Ennis after the divorce
I hate to turn up out of the blue, uninvited
But I couldn't stay away, I couldn't fight it
I had hoped you'd see my face and that you'd be reminded
That for me, it isn't over
And this:
You know how the time flies
Only yesterday was the time of our lives
We were born and raised in a summer haze
Bound by the surprise of our glory days.
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Off topic, perhaps, but I think we all appreciate what Alberta means to our story.
------------------- * * * -----------------
Sometimes... just sometimes... amid the angst and pain of competing political egos, nations conniving, personal meanness, and the never ending cancer of closeted greed (both private and corporate)... just sometimes,
...some one, or some small group, awakens to the beauty of life.
And sometimes, that small group has the wherewithal to capture their epiphany on a video, and offer it to the rest of us.
http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=ThFCg0tBDck (http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=ThFCg0tBDck)
I have never seen such a concentrated collection of images showing the beauty of the land, the fields of grain, the grandeur of the mountains, the streams and lakes, interlaced with the beauty of the human face, and those faces radiating the joy of interacting with nature.
Yes, it's an advertisement for Alberta tourism, but I don't begrudge their motive. They have produced a minor masterpiece showing man and nature at their splendid best.
~~~fia
PS Thanks to trekfan posting on Brokeback-Mountain yahoo group for the link. Ya dun good, Linda.
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Off topic, perhaps, but I think we all appreciate what Alberta means to our story.
------------------- * * * -----------------
Sometimes... just sometimes... amid the angst and pain of competing political egos, nations conniving, personal meanness, and the never ending cancer of closeted greed (both private and corporate)... just sometimes,
...some one, or some small group, awakens to the beauty of life.
And sometimes, that small group has the wherewithal to capture their epiphany on a video, and offer it to the rest of us.
http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=ThFCg0tBDck (http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=ThFCg0tBDck)
I have never seen such a concentrated collection of images showing the beauty of the land, the fields of grain, the grandeur of the mountains, the streams and lakes, interlaced with the beauty of the human face, and those faces radiating the joy of interacting with nature.
Yes, it's an advertisement for Alberta tourism, but I don't begrudge their motive. They have produced a minor masterpiece showing man and nature at their splendid best.
~~~fia
PS Thanks to trekfan posting on Brokeback-Mountain yahoo group for the link. Ya dun good, Linda.
My husband has told be about this . He said "You will weep when you see it....it's like we're back there ". I haven't see it yet. I will avoid it when it is shown again. The next time I cast my eyes on all that beauty again is when I go back again.To breath in the clear crystal mountain air that is scented with wild sage and pines.To walk where the ghosts of two beautiful boys once walked .I WILL go back.....I have promised myself.
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I remember suggesting years ago that there be posted somewhere on
this forum (where we'd have access to look at it) a list of all the awards
that the Brokeback Mountain film had won and/or been nominated for
and I remember that a list was made and posted "somewhere," but
does anyone know where that is? I cannot find the file I had of all that
and I wanted (I was going to say needed, heh!) to find out something.
It might have been in one of the TDS editions, but those are not indexed
at all, are they? Someone go back and do that! LOL!
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I got this off wiki (boy, do I miss football season) - the Won category looks a little sparse, didn't it win more than that?
Won
78th Academy Awards:
Best Director (Ang Lee),
Best Adapted Screenplay (Larry McMurtry and Diana Ossana),
Best Original Score (Gustavo Santaolalla)
59th BAFTA Awards:
Best Film (Diana Ossana and James Schamus),
Best Supporting Actor (Jake Gyllenhaal),
Best Director (Ang Lee),
Best Adapted Screenplay (Larry McMurty and Diana Ossana)
Broadcast Film Critics Association Awards 2005:
Best Picture (Diana Ossana and James Schamus),
Best Director (Ang Lee),
Best Supporting Actress – (Tie) (Michelle Williams),
Best Original Song (Emmylou Harris, Gustavo Santaolalla, and Bernie Taupin, "A Love That Will Never Grow Old")
Directors Guild of America Awards:
Director of the Year Award — Theatrical Motion Picture (Ang Lee)
European Film Awards:
Best Director (Ang Lee)
GLAAD Media Awards:
Outstanding Film — Wide Release (Ang Lee, Diana Ossana, and James Schamus)
63rd Golden Globe Awards Best Motion Picture —
Drama (Diana Ossana and James Schamus),
Best Director — Motion Picture (Ang Lee),
Best Screenplay (Larry McMurtry and Diana Ossana),
Best Song (Gustavo Santaolalla and Bernie Taupin, "A Love That Will Never Grow Old")
Independent Spirit Awards:
Best Picture (Diana Ossana and James Schamus),
Best Director (Ang Lee)
MTV Movie Awards:
Best Performance (Jake Gyllenhaal),
Best Kiss (Heath Ledger & Jake Gyllenhaal)
Producer's Guild Awards:
Producer of the Year Award — Theatrical Motion Picture (Diana Ossana and James Schamus)
Time Magazine: TIME 100:
The People Who Shape Our World (2006) (Ang Lee)
Venice International Film Festival:
"Golden Lion" for Best Film (Ang Lee)
Writers Guild of America Awards:
Best Adapted Screenplay (Larry McMurtry and Diana Ossana)
National Gay Pride Association:
Best Motion Picture (2006) (Diana Ossana and James Schamus)
Australian Film Institute:
Best International Actor (Heath Ledger)
Nominated
78th Academy Awards:
Best Picture (Focus Features: Diana Ossana and James Schamus),
Best Actor in a Leading Role (Heath Ledger),
Best Actor in a Supporting Role (Jake Gyllenhaal),
Best Actress in a Supporting Role (Michelle Williams),
Best Cinematography (Rodrigo Prieto)
59th BAFTA Awards:
Best Actor (Heath Ledger),
Best Supporting Actress (Michelle Williams),
Best Cinematography (Rodrigo Prieto),
Best Score (Gustavo Santaolalla),
Best Editing (Geraldine Peroni and Dylan Tichenor)
Broadcast Film Critics Association Awards 2005:
Best Actor (Heath Ledger),
Best Supporting Actor (Jake Gyllenhaal),
Best Writer (Larry McMurtry and Diana Ossana)
European Film Awards:
Screen International Award (Ang Lee)
63rd Golden Globe Awards:
Best Actor — Motion Picture Drama (Heath Ledger),
Best Supporting Actress — Motion Picture (Michelle Williams),
Best Original Score (Gustavo Santaolalla)
49th Grammy Awards:
Best Compilation Soundtrack Album For Motion Picture, Television Or Other Visual Media (Gustavo Santaolalla, producer)
Independent Spirit Awards:
Best Male Lead (Heath Ledger),
Best Supporting Female (Michelle Williams)
Screen Actors Guild:
Outstanding Performance by a Male Actor in a Leading Role (Heath Ledger),
Outstanding Performance by a Male Actor in a Supporting Role (Jake Gyllenhaal),
Outstanding Performance by a Female Actor in a Supporting Role (Michelle Williams),
Outstanding Performance by a Cast in a Motion Picture (Heath Ledger, Jake Gyllenhaal, Michelle Williams, Anne Hathaway, Randy Quaid, Linda Cardellini, Anna Faris)
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I'm obviously a terrible fan, as well as not having seen the movie in a long time, but did Ennis wear a jean jacket in the movie?
(https://ultimatebrokebackforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fen%2Fa%2Fa1%2FBrokeback_mountain.jpg&hash=a48687a71c798b34cd8a323e26738fbc97ddafb3)
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Yes.
(https://ultimatebrokebackforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi275.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fjj282%2FSanFranciscoJohn%2FBM_0595.jpg&hash=61cf057f2d3531bb619488214a7592e78f167992)
The photo for the poster was taken outside the house when Heath was pacing back and forth, practicing his lines.
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the Won category looks a little sparse, didn't it win more than that?
I guess they left off most of the guild awards and the film critic groups.
I had a folder with all sorts of things it won and was nominated for--even
things like the MTV Best Kiss and some group that nominated it for best
pot smoking scene! I had it contrasted to the award(s) that Crash won to
show how much of an outlier it was for ampas to have awarded it what it did.
If I remember correctly, I believe that BBM won 21 Best Film awards
from all sorts of groups around the world.
I had seen a recent EW magazine that was showing the "winningest
winners" from this years film award season. In answer to the
question, "How many groups hand out awards?" they listed 45 groups.
Most give out a best picture award, but some of them are guilds like WGA/DGA and SAG that do not.
They said that THE ARTIST had won 20 this year and the closest to that
was THE DESCENDANTS with 9. I wanted to compare BBM.
I'm pretty sure that I remember BBM had 21 and Crash had 6. But 3 of
those 6 were from African American Critics Groups, which would make sense.
(Only 1 of BBM's was from a Gay Group, which would also make sense.)
On EW's list of 45 groups, 7 of them had not been established
until 2006 or after, too.
Just because, the EW article also had these numbers about who won the most this year:
Actor:
Jean Dujardin - 8
George Clooney - 9
Actress:
Meryl Streep - 9
Michelle Williams - 12
Supporting Actor:
Christopher Plummer - 20
Albert Brooks-17
Supporting Actress:
Octavia Spencer - 9
Jessica Chastain - 10
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The photo for the poster was taken outside the house when Heath was pacing back and forth, practicing his lines.
What was Jake practicing? :)
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Yes.
The photo for the poster was taken outside the house when Heath was pacing back and forth, practicing his lines.
of course, thank you
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What was Jake practicing? :)
I remember the photographer mentioned the pic of Jake was taken at another time and taken quite quickly. Then of course they were blended. It's strange. I always imagined - because the poster is so beautiful - that they were posing for it together.
kathy
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i always thought the one of Jake was a part of the scene outside Aguirre's trailer, as he's turning around, before he leans on the truck...
-
I remember suggesting years ago that there be posted somewhere on
this forum (where we'd have access to look at it) a list of all the awards
that the Brokeback Mountain film had won and/or been nominated for
and I remember that a list was made and posted "somewhere," but
does anyone know where that is? I cannot find the file I had of all that
and I wanted (I was going to say needed, heh!) to find out something.
It might have been in one of the TDS editions, but those are not indexed
at all, are they? Someone go back and do that! LOL!
I remember this in the Awards Aftermath thread. I hope I'm not mistaken, but I believe all the "won" awards from all around the world were listed. Of course, there were a great number.
There was also the wonderful Variety ad printed again after the travesty of the so-called 'oscars'. Yeah - when something called TRASH 'won'. What a debacle that was and remains. Homophobic 'ampas' at work.
I'm beginning to wonder if this was done at the same time; I'm not sure. But I do remember it in the thread.
kathy
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Interview: Gregory Hinton
GH: Brokeback Mountain taught us “what not to do,” as one of the bloggers states in our play, Beyond Brokeback. And that’s what Beyond Brokeback is about. Life after Brokeback. Over ten million people from all walks of life went to see it – gay, straight, young, old, male and female. It grossed over 200 million dollars. Nobody dreamed Brokeback Mountain would find such a huge audience.
And in the aftermath of its limited release debut, Dave Cullen, a freelance journalist and author of Columbine, created a website called The Ultimate Brokeback Forum to help publicize the film. In the first year after the film’s release the Forum received over 500,000 posts, with 50,000 people stopping by each month to “silently witness” the outpouring of emotion on the site. In the opening monologue of Beyond Brokeback, Cullen‘s character says, “I formed the Ultimate Brokeback Forum just to help the film. I never dreamed it would be the audience that was left in need.”
I have produced several films with gay themes, “It’s My Party” and “Circuit” which I also co-wrote. Both were controversial because they dealt with tough, dark themes – AIDS and assisted death; and the hardcore drug and sex underbelly of the circuit party scene. It is my experience that some gay people tend to be very hard on filmmakers – gay or straight - who attempt to tell our stories.
I am guilty of the same bias, so I didn’t expect much of Brokeback Mountain. I went alone on a cold December morning. I’ll never forget the experience of walking around the corner and seeing hundreds of middle-aged gay men, lined up to buy tickets. In his powerful Brokeback essay, The Magic Mountain, Andrew Holleran writes: “The sadness of Brokeback begins outside the theater.” Listening to the outpouring of emotion in the packed movie theater, Brokeback Mountain broke the mold.
I felt very homesick for Wyoming and Montana after seeing Brokeback Mountain. I decided it was time to return to my rural western roots to stake a claim to my own LGBT family history. Told through essay, poem and song all inspired by the film, Beyond Brokeback is an oral history of the rural LGBT western experience.
Beyond Brokeback has been performed to standing ovation in venues large and small – from the community room in the Bozeman Public Library to Chicago’s historic 3,700 seat Auditorium Theater.
full interview here: http://www.lgbtsr.com/2012/03/interview-gregory-hinton.html (http://www.lgbtsr.com/2012/03/interview-gregory-hinton.html)
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I have a question...
How did a nineteen-year-old Ennis and Jack get served in the bar in Signal? The legal drinking age in Wyoming at the time was 20 ???
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Make up? :D :D :D
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:D
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There are kids who get served in bars now when the legal drinking age is 21. If they looked old enough, the bartender wasn't going to ID them. Back in those times, before organizations such as MADD and others of that kind, underage drinking wasn't as big a topic as it is now.
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Oh, okay. Just a thing I was thinking about :)
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Back when I was young the legal age for drinking in bars was 18, but most of us started at about 13 or 14 and rarely got questioned. Jack and Ennis were presumably just a few months off being legal so it would have been impossible to tell just from looking at them that they were underage. I suppose they were working, they had the money, they didn't look as if they were out to cause trouble, maybe there wasn't much trade, and maybe it wasn't common for people to lose their licenses in more rural areas (who would have reported them?). I hadn't thought about it before so it's an interesting point. It seems odd that they'd left home, could get married, etc., but couldn't order a glass of wine with a meal (or presumably have a drink at their own wedding!). I suppose it's still the case that the legal ages for some things don't seem to match up!
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^^^
Interesting thought -- I actually figured the drinking age must have been younger, or just that the good old boys of the town would not question a couple of young guys having some beers, probably they all had started drinking as teens.
I think Annie's writing reflects the culture. Later she mentions them sharing a joint, which of course is still illegal but what the hay, that is just what they would do.
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When I was in high school in Louisiana the drinking age was 18, but it was pretty common to be able to get something to drink. When I went to restaurants with my parents, it was common for all of us to have wine and a before dinner drink. It was never a big deal, which lessened the allure. Although there was some condemning of underage drinking at the time, it wasn't until the age of 21 was made mandatory throughout the US that there was a real crackdown.
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I got served in bars all the time when I was 17. I don't remember ever being refused a drink before I turned 18.
I remember being carded at a bar in Saginaw just after Michigan raised the drinking age to 21 in 1978. I had been going to that bar for over 4 years by then.
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You're all a bunch of lushes!
I mean--you're all luscious!
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:D :D :D
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I never wanted to drink.
...I do now.
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I'm a student that doesn't drink. People say I'm a rare breed :D
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University of Minnesota students discussing Brokeback Mountain
http://blog.lib.umn.edu/giust002/queercinema/ (http://blog.lib.umn.edu/giust002/queercinema/)
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Announcing the LGBT Pride Month Champions of Change Video Challenge
Across the country, ordinary people are doing extraordinary things to improve the lives of the lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender (LGBT) community. They are parents and students, neighborhood and business leaders, artists and advocates, all united in the fight for equality.
We know that the American people are the source of some of the best ideas and most innovative solutions. That’s why the White House Champions of Change series spotlights everyday heroes who are demonstrating commitment to improving their own communities, their country, or the lives of their fellow citizens. And in that spirit, we are launching the LGBT Pride Month Champions of Change Video Challenge to explore the stories of unsung heroes and local leaders who are leading our march towards a more perfect union.
If that sounds like you or someone you know, then we want to hear from you – and we want to see you in action!
Here's how it works. You have until Friday, May 4 to submit video entries online. A panel will review submissions and select a group of semi-finalists. Then, in early June, the public will have a chance to weigh in and help identify finalists that will be featured as Champions of Change at an event at the White House.
Each video should fit one or more of the following categories, some of which may be used to organize semi-finalists and finalists:
Storytelling (stories of coming out or overcoming adversity)
Culture & Identity (interesting intersections with race, national origin, religion, and disability)
Unsung Heroes (individuals and organizations that haven’t been recognized for their contributions)
The Arts (music, art, photography, poetry, and prose that inspire courage and acceptance)
Social Entrepreneurship & Innovation (individuals and organizations that are testing new approaches and demonstrating results)
Community Solutions (local initiatives that are solving local challenges)
Friends & Allies (family members, teachers, faith leaders, and other allies in the fight for equality)
Videos will be accepted in any form (including music video, PSA, short film, video blog, and interview) but must be no longer than 3 minutes. Essays no longer than 750 words will also be accepted if video production is not possible. Submissions should be creative, innovative, and inspiring and must be submitted by Friday, May 4, 2012.
http://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/2012/04/09/announcing-lgbt-pride-month-champions-change-video-challenge (http://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/2012/04/09/announcing-lgbt-pride-month-champions-change-video-challenge)
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Nevada Pride in the Saddle: The Story of Gay Rodeo
Join gay rodeo producer Brian Rogers on a journey down the trail of gay rodeo in Nevada. Many rodeo fans are surprised to learn that
gay rodeo has been in existence for over 35 years, and got its start in Nevada. In 1975, the first gay rodeo was conceived in Reno as
a fundraiser for the local Senior Citizens Thanksgiving Day dinner. The talk will be accompanied by an exhibition of vintage gay rodeo
photographs by Blake Little, original rodeo posters, programs and rule books from early Nevada Gay Rodeo.
Saturday, May 19 at 6 p.m.
Clark County Library
1401 E. Flamingo Rd., Las Vegas
Co-sponsored by HBO, The David Bohnett Foundation, Gill Foundation and the Gay & Lesbian Rodeo Heritage Foundation. Additional support provided by the Las Vegas-Clark County Library District Foundation.
Free and open to the public, please call 507-3459.
PDF: http://bbmfoundation.org/OutWest/Nevada%20Pride%20in%20the%20Saddle.pdf (http://bbmfoundation.net/OutWest/Nevada%20Pride%20in%20the%20Saddle.pdf)
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--> http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=45202.msg2261099#msg2261099
Been a busy week - great Topic Chuck! ... I had this written up and you locked the thread before I could get it posted. Guess I should have gotten up earlier this morning.
Charlotte and Debbie very nice summaries - spot on. BBM is full of messages - depending on where and when you look and propaganda is a term often used when messages are being delivered which the writer or reader does not agree with for whatever reason.
There are so many conflicting truths in the film that any reviewer can distort these into fitting their agenda or vantage: everything from homosexuality is a sin and they got what they deserved to society (others) are the real culprits with the hate and bigotry.
The single positive religious element is the cross displayed in the Twist home. Jack's mother was devoutly religious and I believe it was her religious beliefs that reinforced her love for her son, even though she could have as easily used the Old Testament Leviticus passages to condemn him. Instead she chose the more modern New Testament versions of love and acceptance. So many people, particular those on the far religious right, just do not see that the Bible is filled with it's own of Yin and Yang, and shades of grey. Tthe religious right prefers to cherry pick scriptures from the Old Testament to suit an agenda while ignoring the latter more relevant passages as taught by Jesus. Yes, a mother's love is endearing and enduring, but we know that Jack's mother, played by Maxwell, knew about Jack, and yet loved Jack and accepted Jack. Vincent
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--> http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=45202.msg2261099#msg2261099
Been a busy week - great Topic Chuck! ... I had this written up and you locked the thread before I could get it posted. Guess I should have gotten up earlier this morning.
Oooop! Sorry about that, but I'm glad you posted here! Perhaps others will have comments to make as well! Thanks Vincent!
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Brush with a Literary Titan:
The Southwestern Region of Sigma Tau Delta hosted a regional conference on the theme “Faces of the West” in Archer City, TX, on
November 4th and 5th, 2011.
................
"Later, I made a visit to Archer City with the then Southwestern Student Representative, Jolie Hicks, so we could tour the town’s amenities. It didn’t take long. In the parlor of The Lonesome Dove Inn, a charming bed and breakfast in which the décor of every room reflects the theme of a different novel by Larry McMurtry, the owner allowed me to hold the Oscar Larry McMurtry won for the screenplay adaptation for Brokeback Mountain."
full article:
http://www.niu.edu/sigmatd/pdf/publications/newsletter.pdf (http://www.niu.edu/sigmatd/pdf/publications/newsletter.pdf)
(https://ultimatebrokebackforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi275.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fjj282%2FSanFranciscoJohn%2FBBMOscar.jpg&hash=e18e1d3dd524b6bba901a341897e3181207d89d5)
Jolie Hicks, Former Southwestern SR, holds Larry McMurtry’s Oscar
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^^^
Interesting thought -- I actually figured the drinking age must have been younger, or just that the good old boys of the town would not question a couple of young guys having some beers, probably they all had started drinking as teens.
Late commenting here, but wanted to 'second' some of the comments:
I didn't grow up in a small town, but I was in my first and second years of high school in 1963, and there just wasn't as much concern about that then as now. In the case of Ennis and Jack, you're probably right; no one would have questioned them if they 'looked old enough.' Kids did often need to be careful where they bought beer, but cigarettes had virtually no forbidden-fruit dimension at all. A high school student could buy them just about anywhere with no trouble even though cigarette vending machines had signs prohibiting minors from using them (and we can all imagine how much signs like that impress teenagers).
On an OT note: from what I've read about present-day drug prevention classes for kids, they were teaching kids about the same things then as now, "gateway drug" references and all. And we all know how successful that approach was with my generation.
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Shawn Kirchner, L.A. Master Chorale's new composer-in-residence
The Los Angeles Master Chorale will appoint Shawn Kirchner as the Swan Family composer-in-residence, the company announced Monday at its board meeting.
Kirchner, who has performed as a tenor in the Master Chorale for the past 10 years, will be the second person to hold the position in LAMC's 48-year history. His three-year appointment, effective July 1, runs through the 2014-15 season.
http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/arts/culture/la-et-cm-master-chorale-names-its-second-composerinresidence-20120518,0,1590652.story (http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/arts/culture/la-et-cm-master-chorale-names-its-second-composerinresidence-20120518,0,1590652.story)
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Wow, that's great news! Congrats to Shawn K!
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Well done, Shawn. I feel sure he deserves it.
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^^^
Ditto! :)
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^^^^^^
Tritto!
Kudos to Shawn!!
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"On Staging LGBT Oral History: 'Laramie,' 'Beyond Brokeback', and '8' "
Here's the workshop from Saturday. This is the first reading of the Missoula script. It is totally unrehearsed, and the readers are members of the audience.
Comments are welcome. I know Greg would like your opinions. What works? What sucks? There's a short discussion at 1:10:00
This is an unedited and unlisted video.
http://youtu.be/f_nrjq7tn1g (http://youtu.be/f_nrjq7tn1g)
I made a mistake while recording this video. During the reading, the screen behind the readers is showing the actual footage from the City Council meeting, and I should have zoomed out to include that.
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Hi John. THANKS for posting. Ill take a look! I really appreciate you posting the other event, all of which I've watched! Vincent
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Watching it now. Thanks, John!
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Veteran actor Chad Everett, perhaps best known for starring in the 1970s drama Medical Center, died 24 July of lung cancer. He was 75.
In one of his obits, I read that he had played "a closeted gay police officer on [the CBS show] "Cold Case." I found the episode on YouTube here ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqRx9fxPKdM
IMDB says it aired Dec 2006. There is a very BBM scene at 19:35 and other BBM moments later on.
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Oh yeah, this is a fantastic episode! We discussed it a lot when it first came out, it was so similar to our favorite movie. I had no idea it was available on YT. Thanks for the link!
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Yes! Everett played the older Jimmy reflecting upon the regrets. With and without Sean, his on-the-beat partrol partner in "Forever Blue" S4E10 which aired in December 2006.
The episode was directed by Jeannot Szwarc, who's other credits include "Somewhere in Time" It knocked my socks off when I first viewed it. It was known as the "brokeback" episode for a while in the press and continues to be one my all time FAVORITE Cold Case Episodes! It still gives me chills to even hear the "108 are you there..." line.
Watch it if you have not you will be surprised.
Thanks SO MUCH for the Youtube posting! I had it saved on my DVR in HD until the drive decided to crap out recently and I lost it.
Vincent
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqRx9fxPKdM
IMDB says it aired Dec 2006. There is a very BBM scene at 19:35 and other BBM moments later on.
one year after the film. :)
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By far my favorite fictional work inspired by BBM.
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I just watched the show. It's touching. Very good use of music, especially the Byrds song at the end. Makes me look forward to seeing BBM at the Castro Theatre next month (posted on Screenings thread).
I never watched Medical Center, and my only memory of Chad Everett is the time he and Lily Tomlin were on a talk show, maybe Cavett. Everett referred to his wife as his most prized possession and Tomlin walked off the show.
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I never saw that when it came out in 2006, but just watched it - thanks so much for posting the link. Heartbreaking. And the scene with the wife was so close to Brokeback.....
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Brian Hallisay is the actor who played Jimmy.
Shane Johnson is the actor who played Coop. There is a lovely interview with him here ...
http://www.afterelton.com/archive/elton/people/2006/12/shanejohnson.html
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Thank You for posting that link. I had forgotten about the interview but have enjoyed Shane Johnson and Brian Hallisay in a few follow-on roles. His interview was on the money. I agree with Fritz too, one of my favorite works post BBM that has been made. V.
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http://www.sparknotes.com/short-stories/brokeback-mountain
Now that there's a Spark Notes summary, I guess there's no
need to continue to discuss the Short Story/Movie ;)
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^^^^
:D :D :D
yeah, I'm sure all discussion will halt now!
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I didn't know about this COLD CASE episode until today. I just watched it. Oh God, what a heartbreaker.
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Isn't it though! One of the best things I've ever seen on commercial TV.
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Check out the cast for Brokeback Mountain the opera:
CAST:
Ennis del Mar, bass baritone
Jack Twist, tenor
Alma Beers (Ennis' wife), soprano
Mrs. Beers (Alma's mother), mezzo
Lureen (Jack's wife), mezzo
Hogboy (Lureen's father), bass
John Twist Sr. (Jack's father), tenor
Mrs. Twist (Jack's mother), alto
Bartender, alto
Saleswoman, alto
townspeople - SATB (16 max)
http://www.charleswuorinen.com/brokeback.php
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Check out the cast for Brokeback Mountain the opera:
CAST:
Ennis del Mar, bass baritone
Jack Twist, tenor
Alma Beers (Ennis' wife), soprano
Mrs. Beers (Alma's mother), mezzo
Lureen (Jack's wife), mezzo
Hogboy (Lureen's father), bass
John Twist Sr. (Jack's father), tenor
Mrs. Twist (Jack's mother), alto
Bartender, alto
Saleswoman, alto
townspeople - SATB (16 max)
http://www.charleswuorinen.com/brokeback.php
Interesting. Linda Higgins, the saleswoman? Ennis buyin' a postcard. It should be a good scene.
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—How have you dealt with the story of "Brokeback mountain"? Is your opera based on Annie Proulx's story or on Ang Lee's film? Will people see the characters of the film on this occasion on an opera stage?
—Annie Proulx herself wrote the libretto which is already finished. I feel it does not bear much relation to the film. It has the same characters, but unlike the story, however, women play a slightly bigger part in it, as in the film.
http://www.emol.com/noticias/todas/2009/04/21/354647/brokeback-mountain-becomes-an-opera.html (http://www.emol.com/noticias/todas/2009/04/21/354647/brokeback-mountain-becomes-an-opera.html)
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Are there any plans to make an official video/film of the Opera?
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Isn't it though! One of the best things I've ever seen on commercial TV.
Wholeheartedly agree. Glad you were able to watch it! The series is remembered for some cutting episodes like this - one of my favorites. V.
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Forgive me, but I just can't get the idea of making Brokeback Mountain into an opera.
Maybe because I love the film so much (and the boys of course).
kathy
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Then the more people exposed to it, the better. You should be promoting it, Kath, even if opera's not your cup of tea.
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—One tends to think nowadays that the creation of contemporary music distances itself from mass audiences. Do you agree with this opinion?
—Yes, it is true. But all serious art is distanced from mass audiences.
—Why?
—Because mass audiences are not interested in serious things. Serious art, of any kind, but specially music, requires an effort from its audience. You have to pay attention, have a certain education, know something, develop a taste for it … And most people don’t do that, they’re not interested. What you compromise in order to obtain mass audiences immediately becomes very superficial entertainment.
http://www.emol.com/noticias/todas/2009/04/21/354647/brokeback-mountain-becomes-an-opera.html (http://www.emol.com/noticias/todas/2009/04/21/354647/brokeback-mountain-becomes-an-opera.html)
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I keep on looking for the LIKE button. Thanks, John!
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Then the more people exposed to it, the better. You should be promoting it, Kath, even if opera's not your cup of tea.
I suppose so, sheri. But - it is stated it will not resemble the film. That kind of hurts me.
kathy
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The film is different than the short story....
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???
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Spammer, Ingy. I am deleting the posts and banning the poster.
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ah, thought so - it sounded odd...
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—One tends to think nowadays that the creation of contemporary music distances itself from mass audiences. Do you agree with this opinion?
Quote from: Charles Wuorinen
—Yes, it is true. But all serious art is distanced from mass audiences . . . . —Because mass audiences are not interested in serious things. Serious art, of any kind, but specially music, requires an effort from its audience. You have to pay attention, have a certain education, know something, develop a taste for it … And most people don’t do that, they’re not interested. What you compromise in order to obtain mass audiences immediately becomes very superficial entertainment.
http://www.emol.com/noticias/todas/2009/04/21/354647/brokeback-mountain-becomes-an-opera.html (http://www.emol.com/noticias/todas/2009/04/21/354647/brokeback-mountain-becomes-an-opera.html)
Sounds like Mr. Wuorinen would have totally despised Ennis and Jack.
(sorry about the nested quote; I couldn't figure out how to make the post intelligible without it)
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It is a big mistake to assume that all audiences are not prepared to do the work or to try hard to get to the heart of any music / play / film / opera etc. That remark shows a contempt for an audience that is in many cases not at all warranted.
There are people who just want to see easy things and to be entertained, but it is not a universal desire.
If it was, the opera houses, concert halls and serious theatres would be empty, when actually it is often a difficult task to even get a ticket.
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It is a big mistake to assume that all audiences are not prepared to do the work or to try hard to get to the heart of any music / play / film / opera etc. That remark shows a contempt for an audience that is in many cases not at all warranted.
There are people who just want to see easy things and to be entertained, but it is not a universal desire.
If it was, the opera houses, concert halls and serious theatres would be empty, when actually it is often a difficult task to even get a ticket.
I did not sense an aura of contempt in his remarks but rather a simple statement of fact. He did not say "all" audiences , he said, and was asked about, "mass" audiences.
I think it may very well be a simple statement of fact that his music does not necessarily appeal to a mass audience. At this very moment a brilliant revival of "Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf" is averaging about $350,000/week on Broadway while "Wicked', "Spiderman" and "Momma Mia" are, and have for several years, grossing three to four times that amount. Yes, WAOVW has an audience but the other examples enjoy a mass audience.
In a similar analogy, Sondheim certainly has an audience, and a well deserved audience, but certainly not a "mass" audience as that of Webber.
Mrs. D and I attended a Wuorinen concert a year or so ago. Picture below. Hardly a mass audience.
(https://ultimatebrokebackforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi302.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fnn86%2Fgary8194%2FXanthos650.jpg&hash=c0c189568ebba42de5f8aceffc896bacb4473203)
And yet the concert was wonderful.
Most appealing of all was Mr. Wuorinen’s “New York Notes,” in which six players mix and match in a sort of cheerfully choreographed bustle. The opening movement is filled with jazzy rhythms and snatches of nostalgic melody. A throaty cello monologue in the second movement is followed by a passage in which flute and violin curl seductively around a lonely clarinet. In the final movement, a wild barrage of impressions, you can’t help but be swept away by Mr. Wuorinen’s giddy thrill in writing for virtuoso players. It was a great evening.
There were about 40 in attendance.
The relevant form of technical expertise differentiating composers from musicians who just happen to create music has been that of musical notation, for centuries, assumed to be the exclusive medium through which musical works with pretentions to artistic seriousness had to be conveyed. With the folk and rock music revolutions of the fifties and sixties, the notated score would be relegated to the status of a historical artifact, as recordings and broadcasts of performances by musicians became the main medium through which music was communicated from composer to performer to audiences. The musical training necessary to produce legible scores and to decode the complex hieroglyphics of musical notation would be seen, in a kind of mirror-image musical Reformation, as a barrier imposed by elites designed to suppress the right of the masses to participate. Pete Seeger would become the seminal figure in this revolution, insisting that the joys of both music and music making should be available to all, not just those able to negotiate music on the page. The removal of the barrier resulted in the art form which has defined the culture of every generation since: Motown, Bob Dylan, Lennon and McCartney, Joni Mitchell, The Last Poets, Kurt Cobain, Kanye West, the canon of contemporary music as it is now defined, virtually all of which has emanated from those who lacked either the means or the inclination to develop conventional musical literacy.
The above is certainly not a statement of contempt. It is just the way things are.
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(quoted) The relevant form of technical expertise differentiating composers from musicians who just happen to create music has been that of musical notation, for centuries, assumed to be the exclusive medium through which musical works with pretentions to artistic seriousness had to be conveyed. . . . The above is certainly not a statement of contempt. It is just the way things are.
You're entitled to your opinion and all the rest of that, but frankly I'm not impressed by the qualitative distinction between "audiences" and "mass audiences." Some productions attended by mass audiences have quality and some for "audiences" are stinkers. And it doesn't take any crossover into account.
I was a theatre major in college and a number of my former classmates, for obvious reasons, relocated to New York or Los Angeles. One of our number, originally a Scottish exchange student, was directing a production of Rise and Fall of the City of Mahagonny at the Los Angeles Opera five years ago and one of the Los Angeles alumni organized a mini-class reunion. It was a wonderful experience and we were all proud of our mutual college buddy; but....
When I was in college, Bertolt Brecht was the most sacred cow on the King Ranch. All of our teachers but one (the head of the department, interestingly) made it clear that Brecht's geniusitude was not to be questioned. Consequently, whenever the university did a production of a Brecht play a lot of the students would have been puzzled by the lackluster audience numbers and response -- and this was a university town which was able to attract "legitimate" audiences. ::) Those of us who weren't surprised were the ones who had attended the department head's directing class and received his celebrated list of Plays That Always Succeed and Plays That Always Fail. Brecht was on the latter list, with the possible exception of Threepenny Opera, and even that isn't produced much anymore.
The production was wonderful and it had a kick-ass cast but the script.... The opera house was close to full and the audience was one of which I'm sure Mr. Wuorinen would approve, but I literally heard people snoring a few rows behind me. Of course, it could have been a few "mass" representatives who managed to sneak out of the trailer park but I doubt it very seriously.
I'm sure someone could make a case for Ennis and Jack not being potential members of that despised "mass" audience; but I'm not holding my breath waiting to hear it.
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Ennis and Jack did make their own music, as did Theocritus' shepherds with their pan pipes.
Music traditionally was passed from singer to singer, and from generation to generation by memory. Music developed in Africa, for instance, was mixed with English sailors songs, and ultimately through the folk process of change and development, became the Blues.
This was going on for millennia before the beloved Pete Seeger.
On the other hand, written music has also been around for generations and does allow for more standardisation and the passing on of a true record.
I wouldn't be without either, personally.
Surely what is crucial in deciding whether something will appeal to a mass audience is not the way it is transmitted from one person to another, but rather the seriousness of the work.
It takes as much "work" on the part of an audience to spend an evening listening to traditional unaccompanied folk song, as it does to appreciate a Wagnerian opera.
I am lucky enough to love both.
The early English folk song collectors like Cecil Sharp and Ralph Vaughan Williams, thought that they were preserving folk songs that would otherwise have died out, maybe they were, maybe not, but what they were actually doing was listening to the songs, writing them down and then arranging them to be played by classical musicians so that they could be enjoyed by the upper and middle classes, who didn't have enough contact with the "lower orders" to have ever heard the songs sung in the pub, or at harvest home etc.
The Blues is probably similar in that it was "black folks" music, so was not generally known and understood, by richer white people'
Because music comes from these "lower orders" it doesn't mean it isn't serious.
So to me music or the arts generally that is appreciated by mass audiences is just simple and easy to understand rather than the traditional distinction between "art" ie. written down and "popular" learned by ear.
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All I know is I listen to music differently depending on the type and the place.
I "appreciate" a variety... rap excluded for now and ever more... but take some kinds more seriously than others.
Interestingly, I can usually tell from a movie score's opening number if I'm going to like the film or not and often, how much.
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Be sure to check out the last slide in this presentation by Focus Features Marketing Interns.
http://prezi.com/bh2erhsxahy1/brokeback-mountain-marketing-campaign/ (http://prezi.com/bh2erhsxahy1/brokeback-mountain-marketing-campaign/)
(https://ultimatebrokebackforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi275.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fjj282%2FSanFranciscoJohn%2FBBMInterns.jpg&hash=ea7177b19c175670fd9c98e153d31a582a6b69de)
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Well worth the time to watch the whole slide presentation!!
Brings back so many, many memories!
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Be sure to check out the last slide in this presentation by Focus Features Marketing Interns.
http://prezi.com/bh2erhsxahy1/brokeback-mountain-marketing-campaign/ (http://prezi.com/bh2erhsxahy1/brokeback-mountain-marketing-campaign/)
(https://ultimatebrokebackforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi275.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fjj282%2FSanFranciscoJohn%2FBBMInterns.jpg&hash=ea7177b19c175670fd9c98e153d31a582a6b69de)
Hi John, THANKS for posting the link to the case study, which is quite remarkable and well worth the watch and read! Cheers, V.
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Looking through that presentation made all the excitement of the film coming out and seeing it for the
first time and all of the joy everyone was buzzing about come back to life. It was such an exciting time!
Thanks for that!
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Exactly how I felt, Lyle!
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Ang Lee Compares Making Risky 'Life of Pi' to 'Brokeback Mountain'
"Comparing "Pi" to "Brokeback", Ang admitted that the latter was not so risky for him. "No, that wasn't for me. At least when I made it ['Brokeback'], I thought it was strictly arthouse and few people would see it. And it's a lot cheaper [to make]," he reasoned. "So I didn't care...And then I got nervous, 'Oh they are going to lynch me, making a gay cowboy movie, that will go into a shopping mall'."
Furthermore, Lee recalled that after making the gay film, he was attacked by worry. "Yes, I was afraid. I was looking around when I walked, when I would go home, to see if anybody was following me," he remembered. "Once it hit the shopping mall I was nervous, actually. My brother is a distributor in Taiwan and I told him not to buy it. He hates me to this day, he is still babbling about it."
http://www.aceshowbiz.com/news/view/00055758.html#ixzz2DBco4NgX (http://www.aceshowbiz.com/news/view/00055758.html#ixzz2DBco4NgX)
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Thanks for posting the slide show, John.
Very interesting, and well worth the watch.
I've reposted it on BM.
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BM???
Thanks for posting the marketing campaign show, John! It was great! Makes me nostalgic for when the film came out--seven (!) years ago.
And thank YOU, dear Lyle, for telling me about it! :-*
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Bettermost, Mark.
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No more beans.
There's a line in LITTLE SHEBA where my wife says, You want some more beans? and every night I am dying to answer...well, you know.
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I bet you are!
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does anyone have a screen cap of Ennis looking at Jack, when he rides off after FNIT?
It's right after Jack says "see ya fer supper"...I thought there was a shot of Ennis on his horse looking down at Jack, before he picks up the reins and rides off...
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does this work?
(https://ultimatebrokebackforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi327.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fk463%2Fdcfmod%2Fpcaps%2Fx.jpg&hash=27198e01963b78e88ff1b0e728a30340cd7dab12)
You can see the pic in order on a site called Striped Wall, second row to the right.
http://stripedwall.com/gallery.php?page=movies/Brokeback&start=875&p_f=500
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that's it, thank you, Chuck!
I'll check out the site now...
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I can't believe how many pages on the internet are devoted to BBM... and Chuck, it seems you're able to find them all. Thanks!
Just a question from a new Brokie (like me): how many Brokies have been posting here since the start, and are still posting regurlarly? I can imagine a lot of people joined the forum once, but stopped posting at some point in time. When I first found this forum, I was amazed at how detailed it is - just reading the 'Scene-by-Scene' threads (my current favourites) is taking me weeks! Months in fact ;D
I guess everything has been said many, many times before, so not many people post on those threads anymore. But for me, those threads have been, and still are, a joy and a total pleasure to read.
Just wanted you to know that.
Oh, and I even managed to get the "Beyond Brokeback" book over here in Holland! :)
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You can go through the members list... things like 'date registered,' 'last active,' 'number of posts,' etc are there.
I'm not sure what happened when the old forum became this one.
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I can't believe how many pages on the internet are devoted to BBM... and Chuck, it seems you're able to find them all. Thanks!
Just a question from a new Brokie (like me): how many Brokies have been posting here since the start, and are still posting regurlarly? I can imagine a lot of people joined the forum once, but stopped posting at some point in time. When I first found this forum, I was amazed at how detailed it is - just reading the 'Scene-by-Scene' threads (my current favourites) is taking me weeks! Months in fact ;D
I guess everything has been said many, many times before, so not many people post on those threads anymore. But for me, those threads have been, and still are, a joy and a total pleasure to read.
Just wanted you to know that.
Oh, and I even managed to get the "Beyond Brokeback" book over here in Holland! :)
I loved those threads. They were a big part of my day. I am not at all sure we will ever experience anything like it again.
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I guess everything has been said many, many times before, so not many people post on those threads anymore. But for me, those threads have been, and still are, a joy and a total pleasure to read.
Just wanted you to know that.
Oh, and I even managed to get the "Beyond Brokeback" book over here in Holland! :)
Sonja, just because a thread hasn't been posted to, doesn't mean it "shouldn't" be posted to. If you see something in a thread that is not locked, and you want to reply to it, go for it. Your post may stimulate more conversation.
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I can't believe how many pages on the internet are devoted to BBM... and Chuck, it seems you're able to find them all. Thanks!
Just a question from a new Brokie (like me): how many Brokies have been posting here since the start, and are still posting regurlarly? I can imagine a lot of people joined the forum once, but stopped posting at some point in time. When I first found this forum, I was amazed at how detailed it is - just reading the 'Scene-by-Scene' threads (my current favourites) is taking me weeks! Months in fact ;D
I guess everything has been said many, many times before, so not many people post on those threads anymore. But for me, those threads have been, and still are, a joy and a total pleasure to read.
Just wanted you to know that.
Oh, and I even managed to get the "Beyond Brokeback" book over here in Holland! :)
Hi Sonja,
Well as of today, we have 6323 registered members, but not all those members post. They are what we call lurkers, meaning they read but do not post. They are very important members of our home as well. Of course, not all those are active any more, as you have seen. We have had as many as 4 million + page reads back at the beginning. So you see, not everyone posts, but many, many read.
There were 4 original people who started the forum, coming from a blog that Dave Cullen started over on Salon.com . He started it just to advertise the movie.There was so much discussion and it got too large for that site to handle, so the forum was born on Dec. 24th, 2005. Chuck and I joined the same day, Dec. 26th, 2005, just a couple of hours apart. We are coming up on out 7th anniversary. Wow, who would have thought, 7 years down the road? Just amazing, I think.
Those first months were crazy. All of us thought we were crazy because of the varied reactions we all were having. For so many of us, finding the forum was like coming home. A place to talk about all these feelings to others who were going through the same things we were. The emotions were so profound. It was a place all of us could come and talk about the changes that were taking place in our lives as a result of seeing this move, and know that we were not crazy. That many many others were having the same reaction.
A lot of us say that the movie and forum is the catalyst that brought us all together initially. But now, so many years after the beginning, we are just a family. As in most families, people come and go, but we are always there for one another. Also, as in most families, we get new family members and it is always so exciting to welcome new family into our home. I hope you feel this way.
So far away from the beginning, I think it is Dave's hope and I know it is all of ours that folks, just like you, continue to come here read those threads and understand how it all was and how it still is. We love it that you are here and reading and discussing. As Chuck said, please post in any of the threads that are still active, no matter how long ago the last post was made, if you have anything you want to questions, ask, discuss. If it has a REPLY button on it, you can still post there.
Also down at the bottom of the main page is a section called FORUM STATS. At the bottom of that section is a clickable link [More Stats]. Just click on this and it will take you to a page that will give you some history of the forum.
I hope this has helped answer your question. I am so glad you have joined us here. Thanks so much for becoming a member of our family.
Linda
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Wonderful post, (((Linda)))
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Thanks (Swedish) Sonja!! :D :-*
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Yes, great post Auntie!
With the anniversary of the movie and forum comming up, and I'd like to see some new posts to our Brokeback related threads. ;D
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No problem, Chuck, I was planning on posting there. :D
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Wow, Linda, I joined on the 25th. I never posted on the old forum but spent a lot of time there and when I registered here, I felt like I was the only new kid on the block. My how time flies!
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There were 4 original people who started the forum, coming from a blog that Dave Cullen started over on Salon.com . He started it just to advertise the movie.There was so much discussion and it got too large for that site to handle, so the forum was born on Dec. 24th, 2005. Chuck and I joined the same day, Dec. 26th, 2005, just a couple of hours apart. We are coming up on out 7th anniversary. Wow, who would have thought, 7 years down the road? Just amazing, I think.
Hi Linda,
Thanks for your detailed post. You told me everything I wanted to know :) Jeez, 7 years already...
I think it's amazing Brokeback Mountain has united so many people from all over the world! I wonder if any of the writers, cast and crew and everyone involved in the making of the movie had thought this would ever happen. Jake said on Oprah he probably wouldn't have done it if he had known it would be this big, and that was only a few months after the release.
I wonder how he feels about it now - and if he's ever lurked here ;) I bet he's proud!
I'm happy to be a part of the family. Thank you all.
(Dutch) Sonja :)
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I wonder how he feels about it now - and if he's ever lurked here ;) I bet he's proud!
I'm happy to be a part of the family. Thank you all.
(Dutch) Sonja :)
^^^I think it's a sure bet Jake has lurked here!
I agree, Linda's post was wonderful, and I'll add to it by saying at that time, there was no facebook, and for many of us an on-line forum was a completely new experience. Many of us were a little freaked out about it, and speaking for myself I wondered if it was normal. I absolutely NEEDED to work out the story in the scenes threads.
Well, if it was not normal it became the new normal. Ain't no reins!
When we had our very first get-together at Auntie's in Boerne Texas many people were still afraid to have their photos posted on-line. We feared that someday the picture might end up on-line with OUR REAL NAMES attached.
And now that picture IS on facebook, with -- our real names.
I used to go by tellyouwhat only, but I finally just put my name up because there was another member with a similar name, and people used to send him my PMs. Somewhere, Mr. Tell You What has a dead letter office of my PMs.
Oh -- and the threads moved so fast in those days -- often there were over 100 people logged on at the same time. It was really great.
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When we had our very first get-together at Auntie's in Boerne Texas many people were still afraid to have their photos posted on-line. We feared that someday the picture might end up on-line with OUR REAL NAMES attached.
And now that picture IS on facebook, with -- our real names.
Tell you what, Ellen - speaking of Facebook: I keep searching for the 'like' button on here! So many great posts! ;)
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How do they translate "Tell you what" in the Dutch version of the story? :D
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I was freaked out when I first joined the Forum too !! When some one asked me my "real" name.....I "hid" for more that a week !! I wouldn't touch my laptop .....I avoided it like it was red hot ! But I so wanted to find out about the story and what others more "up on it" than me thought about it and what they had gleaned from it. I came back on line ......and I haven't looked back.
Brokies now know my name ......a lot now even have my address ....and no raving lunatic has turned up on my doorstep yet.!!!! I have even been on holiday to someones home....who lives in Texas....and they are lovely people.
I have only been to one Brokie gathering ....but if I have my way.....it won't be the last. !
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On that "Oprah" show back in early '06, it was Heath who stated to Jake "I wonder if we would have taken it (BBM) if we knew what a tremendous success it became". I believe Jake just nodded. But of course they were so happy how it turned out and so proud.
I always thought Jake put his head down & became rather quiet in the 2nd part of the interview because Heath was looking back at MW when the girls came on. I'm not saying he was going to ignore Jake. IMO they would never do that to each other. Not those two.
Before the girls came out, H&J were so close and comfortable with each other, smiling and laughing together. IMO.
kathy
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Here's the Ennis for Madrid
(https://ultimatebrokebackforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi275.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fjj282%2FSanFranciscoJohn%2Fokulitch_daniel.jpg&hash=728db495eb5ca0f6a16fe29e4a8e182b54d639df)
DANIEL OKULITCH
Bass-Baritone
http://youtu.be/qUiTnlxz1kg (http://youtu.be/qUiTnlxz1kg)
http://www.piperanselmi.com/Media_Kit/Okulitch_08.pdf (http://www.piperanselmi.com/Media_Kit/Okulitch_08.pdf)
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I was freaked out when I first joined the Forum too !! When some one asked me my "real" name.....I "hid" for more that a week !! I wouldn't touch my laptop .....I avoided it like it was red hot ! But I so wanted to find out about the story and what others more "up on it" than me thought about it and what they had gleaned from it. I came back on line ......and I haven't looked back.
Brokies now know my name ......a lot now even have my address ....and no raving lunatic has turned up on my doorstep yet.!!!! I have even been on holiday to someones home....who lives in Texas....and they are lovely people.
I have only been to one Brokie gathering ....but if I have my way.....it won't be the last. !
Made me laugh! But I was almost as bad! :D
And yay for your last sentence!
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How do they translate "Tell you what" in the Dutch version of the story? :D
The translation in Dutch is: "Ik zal je vertellen...", which can also be translated as "Let me tell you", or something like that. I have some major problems with the Dutch translation, to be honest. Some passages of the story have a totally different feel to them. It just doesn't do it for me. I much prefer to read the story in English.
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The translation in Dutch is: "Ik zal je vertellen...", which can also be translated as "Let me tell you", or something like that. I have some major problems with the Dutch translation, to be honest. Some passages of the story have a totally different feel to them. It just doesn't do it for me. I much prefer to read the story in English.
thanks Blue Jean Darlin --
Ik zal je vertellen --- My name is in there, I kind of like that!
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(https://ultimatebrokebackforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi275.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fjj282%2FSanFranciscoJohn%2FDaniel.jpg&hash=72ff7e30ca9e522fa40623245d813d83e817f483)
Daniel Okulitch singing the aria "I Can't Believe I Left My Damn Shirt Up There" ;)
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(https://ultimatebrokebackforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi275.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fjj282%2FSanFranciscoJohn%2FDaniel.jpg&hash=72ff7e30ca9e522fa40623245d813d83e817f483)
Daniel Okulitch singing the aria "I Can't Believe I Left My Damn Shirt Up There" ;)
Great name for an aria!
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I was freaked out when I first joined the Forum too !! When some one asked me my "real" name.....I "hid" for more that a week !! I wouldn't touch my laptop .....I avoided it like it was red hot ! But I so wanted to find out about the story and what others more "up on it" than me thought about it and what they had gleaned from it. I came back on line ......and I haven't looked back.
Brokies now know my name ......a lot now even have my address ....and no raving lunatic has turned up on my doorstep yet.!!!! I have even been on holiday to someones home....who lives in Texas....and they are lovely people.
I have only been to one Brokie gathering ....but if I have my way.....it won't be the last. !
I didn't quite freak out, but I did feel overwhelmed at the staggering amount of knowledge that people had, and the detail contained in the posts. It felt "a bit like arriving at a party long after it has got underway." as someone here said of the forum. My main reason for joining was to share a home-made booklet of the story, my tribute to BBM. But also, to learn about the phenomenon which showed no sign of dying down when I joined. I tend not to post comments very often, but still refer regularly to the old threads, what I call my "Encyclopaedia Brokeback."
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I didn't quite freak out, but I did feel overwhelmed at the staggering amount of knowledge that people had, and the detail contained in the posts. It felt "a bit like arriving at a party long after it has got underway." as someone here said of the forum.
Yes, that's a bit how I feel as well. It's far too soon for me to explore the entire forum, simply because there are too many treads. And I'm pretty sure my boss won't allow me to visit this forum when I'm supposed to get some work done at the office ;)
For now, I usually stick to the "Scenes" treads, cos they're so much fun to read and I have a lot of catching up to do.
Oh, and the "Juicy bits" section, and "Jake's Eyelashes" of course ;)
Regarding Chuckyv's post:
Is Brokeback still considered a phenomenon in the USA, do you think, or has it 'died down'?
A few of my friends like the film, but are not overwhelmed like I am. I'm not at all sure if Brokeback is considered a phenomenon in my country (Holland). It's a classic, yes, but a phenomenon? I don't know.
Last week, Jake was a guest on a UK talkshow, and when the host introduced him, he kept referring to BBM as 'gay cowboy stuff' and all that - those same old silly jokes. I'm sure Jake must've heard those jokes a thousand times. Is it like that in the USA as well?
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Just to be clear - I meant: Is Brokeback still a phenomenon with the general public?
It's obviously a phenomenon on this forum! ;D
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Bluejean, the answer is no, it is no longer a phenomenon here, although it has become a part of the culture ("I wish I knew how to quit you" is still quoted often)
Back in 2005/06 many of us had a similar experience to you -- that is, we caught Brokeback Fever, but we didn't know anybody else in our lives who had it.
I was completely floored by the short story, was afraid to see the movie until I finally realized I couldn't help myself, and then after I saw the movie I went back the next day.
I subsequently made my husband read the story and see the movie -- he agreed with me it was very good -- and that was that, he was done. I dragged a few friends on various occasions. They agreed with me it was an excellent movie. Then they were done.
Then I found the forum and learned that there were hundreds, even thousands who had my same reaction to the story, so does that prove I'm not crazy? I think it does :) I have been very grateful we had this technology to find each other.
Also, in the beginning, none of us knew how long it would take to get over the Brokeback fever. Looking back, it would say, on average, about 3 years. It will always be special to me.
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Anybody know what year Ennis's blue Ford truck was?
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according to Google it was a 1966 Ford F100
(https://ultimatebrokebackforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimage.customclassictrucks.com%2Ff%2F9477287%2Bw750%2Bst0%2F0509cct_11_z%2B1966_ford_f100%2B.jpg&hash=89e1dbe7da7c53abebfacfef1860aac08fbfea2d)
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I'm getting the dreaded X
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Is that better?
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:) yes, thanks.
His truck broke down in todays chapter of A Day In The Life, and I said it was a 76 Ford F100.....so I guess he saved up for a newer one...
thanks, Chuck, I can always count on you to come through with the right answer...
eta: how did you google that question? I tried it referencing BBM, but got nothing related to the movie...
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I googled "Ford truck in Brokeback" and the first link listed was to a list of the vehicles used in the movie, according to IMCDB.
http://www.imcdb.org/movie_388795-Brokeback-Mountain.html
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I googled "Ford truck in Brokeback" and the first link listed was to a list of the vehicles used in the movie, according to IMCDB.
http://www.imcdb.org/movie_388795-Brokeback-Mountain.html
Wow! Fantatic!
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today is 12/10. Yesterday was the anniversary of the release of Brokeback.
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according to Google it was a 1966 Ford F100
(https://ultimatebrokebackforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimage.customclassictrucks.com%2Ff%2F9477287%2Bw750%2Bst0%2F0509cct_11_z%2B1966_ford_f100%2B.jpg&hash=89e1dbe7da7c53abebfacfef1860aac08fbfea2d)
It looks so nice here.
kathy :)
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It looks brand new, it's probably restored.
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http://www.nebraskapress.unl.edu/product/Brokeback-Book,674771.aspx
There is a whole range of Brokeback Mountains, many of which are explored in the fascinating, sometimes contradictory, and always passionate essays in this book.”—Ang Lee, Academy Award–winning director of Brokeback Mountain
Has anyone here read this book?
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Hi lislis. I own the book and met the author, William Handley. (He signed my copy)
He was a member of the panel of the first "Out West" program at the Autry Museum in December of 2009.
I have read the book and it is excellent and worth reading.
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Thank you Islis. I hadn't heard of that one. I will look out for it.
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according to Google it was a 1966 Ford F100
(https://ultimatebrokebackforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimage.customclassictrucks.com%2Ff%2F9477287%2Bw750%2Bst0%2F0509cct_11_z%2B1966_ford_f100%2B.jpg&hash=89e1dbe7da7c53abebfacfef1860aac08fbfea2d)
This wonderful to find out and see.
As I flicked through this thread quickly though......I thought someone had fixed some lattice fence onto the bed of the truck.....and hung some plant holders on it.
I thought ..."How gay is that ?" :D :D :D :D :D
Sorry if I offend anybody....but I truely did !
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What's with the lyrics?
"The Wings"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0qzMsJ-tmJY
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I heard this in 2008, I love it, he did a great job. He posted it here, the day Heath died.....don't you like the lyrics?
Heath Ledger Tribute
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzuA7cYmKtY (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzuA7cYmKtY)
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The Gay Men's Chorus of Los Angeles commissioned this haunting arrangement of songs used in the "Brokeback Mountain" film score, shown here in its premiere performance.
Recorded live at the Saban Theater, Beverly Hills, CA, June 24, 2012.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yxI3O9j7F7s
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Hiya John, thanks for the info!
I like it, I just never heard it before, and I was wondering if there were actual lyrics to go with the song that I had never head before.
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The Gay Men's Chorus of Los Angeles commissioned this haunting arrangement of songs used in the "Brokeback Mountain" film score, shown here in its premiere performance.
Recorded live at the Saban Theater, Beverly Hills, CA, June 24, 2012.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yxI3O9j7F7s
BCJ.....this is so very lovely. I listened to it twice over the last half an hour or so.....and the lump is still in my throat and tears in my eyes ready to spill. Thanks for posting.
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I heard this in 2008, I love it, he did a great job. He posted it here, the day Heath died.....don't you like the lyrics?
Heath Ledger Tribute
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzuA7cYmKtY (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzuA7cYmKtY)
I found this so difficult to watch and listen to...but I did. Some would ask why I should feel like this ... I just cannot find one reason why.
Saying that I loved this man and miss him sounds so stupid to an outsider.
Beautiful Nancy...thanks.
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I heard this in 2008, I love it, he did a great job. He posted it here, the day Heath died.....don't you like the lyrics?
Heath Ledger Tribute
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzuA7cYmKtY (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzuA7cYmKtY)
Love the song, it's very touching.
The same song (with lyrics) is used in several other BBM music videos.
In fact, there are many, many Brokeback music videos that actually make me cry sometimes. Here's one of them, with Adele's song "Someone like you":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHeV8Kun1OM&list=FLoXZNqSDnENisl-xnJIsBZg&index=7 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHeV8Kun1OM&list=FLoXZNqSDnENisl-xnJIsBZg&index=7)
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http://www.nebraskapress.unl.edu/product/Brokeback-Book,674771.aspx
There is a whole range of Brokeback Mountains, many of which are explored in the fascinating, sometimes contradictory, and always passionate essays in this book.”—Ang Lee, Academy Award–winning director of Brokeback Mountain
Has anyone here read this book?
I ordered it online yesterday ;D , before reading your post! Haven't received it yet, though. I own several other BBM books, so this one's for my collection!
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Annie Proulx, the author of the original story, has written the libretto for Brokeback Mountain, which will be conducted by Titus Engel and directed by Ivo van Hove with the leading roles of Jack and Ennis filled by Tom Randle and Daniel Okulitch
http://intermezzo.typepad.com/intermezzo/2013/02/teatro-real-madrid-2013-2014-season-announced.html (http://intermezzo.typepad.com/intermezzo/2013/02/teatro-real-madrid-2013-2014-season-announced.html)
(https://ultimatebrokebackforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi275.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fjj282%2FSanFranciscoJohn%2FTomRandle_zps84799350.jpg&hash=151d45bfd521479355c2c3a9d20a01489279d397)
http://imgartists.com/artist/tom_randle (http://imgartists.com/artist/tom_randle)
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I found this so difficult to watch and listen to...but I did. Some would ask why I should feel like this ... I just cannot find one reason why.
Saying that I loved this man and miss him sounds so stupid to an outsider.
Beautiful Nancy...thanks.
I loved this video too and it was so sad to me; so are a lot of other BBM videos which make me just cry. And it is not stupid at all - I feel the same way about Heath. I loved him and miss him so much. Just doesn't seem possible it has been five yrs. w/o him. So so sad.
kathy :-* :'(
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I just found this video on YouTube. Gustavo Santaolalla plays a Brokeback Mountain medley.
The video was uploaded on YouTube on March 13, 2010, so some of you may have seen it already, but the music's still so beautiful.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TtXOMp9JfHY (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TtXOMp9JfHY)
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Oh yes! That dreamy violinist!
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I was in a Hollywood Bookstore yesterday, Larry Edmunds Bookstore, and I wasn''t looking
for it, but I saw our forum book, Beyond Brokeback, on a display table and was gratified to
see it there!
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What a great bookstore! I would to have unlimited money to shop there.
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I was in a Hollywood Bookstore yesterday, Larry Edmunds Bookstore, and I wasn''t looking
for it, but I saw our forum book, Beyond Brokeback, on a display table and was gratified to
see it there!
Cool!!
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THE FORUM WILL BE OFFLINE ON WEDNESDAY, APRIL 10TH FROM 2 PM TO 10 PM EDT FOR SITE MIGRATION BY POWER VPS, OUR SITE PROVIDER.
IT COULD BE FOR THE WHOLE TIME OR LESS DEPENDING ON IF ANY ISSUES ARE ENCOUNTERED.
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Oh dear... I've just discovered that in the 'Archive of The Film & Book' section, there is a 'Dislikes about BBM' thread! Last post there was on August 24, 2007.
;D
As much as I love and cherish this movie, it does have its flaws. Jack's moustache is one of them ;)
I'll go and read the whole thread now! It'll be fun, I'm sure!
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Oh dear... I've just discovered that in the 'Archive of The Film & Book' section, there is a 'Dislikes about BBM' thread! Last post there was on August 24, 2007.
;D
As much as I love and cherish this movie, it does have its flaws. Jack's moustache is one of them ;)
I'll go and read the whole thread now! It'll be fun, I'm sure!
I think that make up was the major dislike about the film. Im sure that the thread is locked, if you have something you want to add, feel free to post about it here! ;D
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Oh dear... I've just discovered that in the 'Archive of The Film & Book' section, there is a 'Dislikes about BBM' thread! Last post there was on August 24, 2007.
;D
As much as I love and cherish this movie, it does have its flaws. Jack's moustache is one of them ;)
I'll go and read the whole thread now! It'll be fun, I'm sure!
Dislikes ??? Oh no!
Gosh, I didn't think the moustache was that bad. I mean I'd rather have him w/o it, but it wasn't like a "walrus"-type one.
kathy
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As much as I love and cherish this movie, it does have its flaws. Jack's moustache is one of them ;)
Gosh, I didn't think the moustache was that bad. I mean I'd rather have him w/o it, but it wasn't like a "walrus"-type one.
(https://ultimatebrokebackforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi54.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fg116%2FCellarDweller115%2Fi-mustache-you-a-question-can-eyebrows-your-computer-_zps30677f9a.jpg&hash=8ce9d667f8db1af4158c9a1563987d6389f8aa6e)
*mods self* Ok, back to topic. LOL
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Now there is a walrus-type moustache. Just terrible.
kathy
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ewwwwwwww
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;D ;D
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I like it... although I'd like to see it a little less abundant over the lips.
Bit those eyebrows! Or, I should say, that eyebrow!
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I think that make up was the major dislike about the film. Im sure that the thread is locked, if you have something you want to add, feel free to post about it here! ;D
I'm currently reading that thread and it seems quite a lot of people have another major dislike: not enough physical intimacy between Jack and Ennis in the later part of the movie. I agree. It would've been great to have another love scene. I mean, these guys weren't just buddies, they were lovers.
I'm not talking about a second FNIT here, maybe that would've been too much for a mainstream movie - but a tender love scene later on, to show they were still intimate with each other.
Or a much, much, much longer dozy embrace!
I love the description of the Dozy Embrace in the book, it's my favorite part by far, and it's such a shame that scene was so short in the movie.
It's the only time we get to see both boys perfectly at ease.
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I'm currently reading that thread and it seems quite a lot of people have another major dislike: not enough physical intimacy between Jack and Ennis in the later part of the movie. I agree. It would've been great to have another love scene. I mean, these guys weren't just buddies, they were lovers.
I'm not talking about a second FNIT here, maybe that would've been too much for a mainstream movie - but a tender love scene later on, to show they were still intimate with each other.
Or a much, much, much longer dozy embrace!
I love the description of the Dozy Embrace in the book, it's my favorite part by far, and it's such a shame that scene was so short in the movie.
It's the only time we get to see both boys perfectly at ease.
Yes, that's a point I've always made - I do think it's an artistic, and emotional, slight weakness.
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I have to wonder about that topic.
I would've been happier to see more intimacy between them, however, was that really "Jack & Ennis"? It's my understanding that at that particular time men were not particularly demonstrative with their feelings. Yes, it was a romance movie, but would J & E have actually behaved that way?
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We're not asking for SNITs - just "the brilliant charge of their infrequent couplings...."
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I would have been happy if Jack had uttered the line: "That's one of the two things I need right now."
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Did they maybe replace that one with "Tell you what....sometimes I miss you so much...."?
I think APs original worked quite nicely.....
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I have to wonder about that topic.
I would've been happier to see more intimacy between them, however, was that really "Jack & Ennis"? It's my understanding that at that particular time men were not particularly demonstrative with their feelings. Yes, it was a romance movie, but would J & E have actually behaved that way?
Jack would have, I'm sure of that. They were alone, in the middle of nowhere during their 'fishing trips'. I'm sure Jack found ways to 'tell' Ennis how he felt. Maybe not in words, but with body language! I would've liked to have seen it. For me, it would've worked better than the 'buddy' scenes that were shown in the movie.
We're not asking for SNITs - just "the brilliant charge of their infrequent couplings...."
Exactly! :)
After all, "this ain't no little thing that's happenin here"!
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Perhaps, if Ennis hadn't been Ennis. By that I mean Jack was the way he was because Ennis was the way he was. I agree that 'the brilliant charge' could have been relayed somehow, but emotional coupling doesn't seem to me right for their situation and their characters.
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Oh dear... I've just discovered that in the 'Archive of The Film & Book' section, there is a 'Dislikes about BBM' thread! Last post there was on August 24, 2007.
;D
As much as I love and cherish this movie, it does have its flaws. Jack's moustache is one of them ;)
I'll go and read the whole thread now! It'll be fun, I'm sure!
I think Jack's mustache is sexy. But that other one--I MUSTACHE you a question one--YECCH!!!
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We're not asking for SNITs - just "the brilliant charge of their infrequent couplings...."
Maybe in the remake?
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Perhaps, if Ennis hadn't been Ennis. By that I mean Jack was the way he was because Ennis was the way he was. I agree that 'the brilliant charge' could have been relayed somehow, but emotional coupling doesn't seem to me right for their situation and their characters.
I agree completely andy.
kathy :)
p.s. oh, dood, do not mention that terrible word "remake"! Only Heath and Jake could have portrayed their characters so magnificently. Besides, films that are undeniably "classics" stand on their own forever.
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Sorry, I have no problem with remakes. To me, it's art... Picasso, Renoir and Michelangelo would all paint the same scene in different ways and who's to say one is better than the other?
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Sorry, I have no problem with remakes. To me, it's art... Picasso, Renoir and Michelangelo would all paint the same scene in different ways and who's to say one is better than the other?
I agree with Sherry. I've never had any problems with films that are remade, songs that are covered, or things of that nature.
Yes, a remake of Brokeback could be terrible, but who is to say that a different director wouldn't also make a masterpiece that could make us fall in love with it again, or make us see things from a different angle?
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Perhaps, if Ennis hadn't been Ennis. By that I mean Jack was the way he was because Ennis was the way he was. I agree that 'the brilliant charge' could have been relayed somehow, but emotional coupling doesn't seem to me right for their situation and their characters.
Mmmm. You've got a point there, andy. Maybe the 'emotional coupling' would have been too much to ask, after all.
Now that I think of it, maybe it's just me wanting it so much - that emotional connection between Jack and Ennis. Let's leave that for the remake then... ;)
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I think Jack's mustache is sexy. But that other one--I MUSTACHE you a question one--YECCH!!!
Anyone seen the film Gettysburg?
Great film, but VERY dodgy beards.
Well that is a dodgy moustache! :D
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Mmmm. You've got a point there, andy. Maybe the 'emotional coupling' would have been too much to ask, after all.
Now that I think of it, maybe it's just me wanting it so much - that emotional connection between Jack and Ennis. Let's leave that for the remake then... ;)
I think you're on to something there, Sonja.
I think - at least in our first years of Brokiedom - we so desperately want more for them; more love, more affection, more sex, more intimacy, more time together, more happiness.
We are left with such sadness and devastation after seeing the movie, that we want it remedied - for them, and for ourselves.
I think that's the place fan fic grew from in the beginning, when most of the fanfic had them ending up together, one way or the other. At least for me, reading those stories was one way to start the healing process after BBM.
We don't cry over them - we cry over ourselves. They just lay bare our wounds.
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Oh Sonja, that is so true. That was most perfectly said.
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Thank you so much, Jess. :-*
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^^^^^^^^^^^^
Yes. That's it! That's EXACTLY it! I couldn't have put it better myself. Thanks, Sonja :-*
I've been reading many (far too many) fanfics in which the boys do have a chance of a life together. Or at least they have a chance to 'fix' it. I can't tell you how many times I cried reading those stories, wishing it could have been like that for them. A good life, a f**king real good life.
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You're welcome, Sonja :-* (love your name, btw :D)
Some of those stories are really well written, but that's not the reason they were so important to me. It's the healing they provided, and the path to healing is all the crying. Or at least one of the paths. Time is another path, and so is meeting brokies in real life.
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We don't cry over them - we cry over ourselves. They just lay bare our wounds.
Wow! That is just so beautifull and beautifully true. Thanks.
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You're welcome, doodler.
I'm glad if my words mean something to other people too, not just to myself.
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We don't cry over them - we cry over ourselves. They just lay bare our wounds.
Amen to that Sonja. Does what you said read so well in Swedish/Danish? ;)
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Thanks Andy. :-*
Dunno, haven't even tried to word it in Sw/Da.
English very much is the Brokie language to me.
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;D
And I couldn't even try in Dutch... Reading the short story in Dutch is hard enough as it is. It's just not the same.
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I agree with Sherry. I've never had any problems with films that are remade, songs that are covered, or things of that nature.
Yes, a remake of Brokeback could be terrible, but who is to say that a different director wouldn't also make a masterpiece that could make us fall in love with it again, or make us see things from a different angle?
It's funny that you mention this, Chuck. For me, watching the countless Brokeback music videos on YouTube feels like 'a different angle' sometimes. Sure, the story remains the same, but...
When I first started searching YouTube for BBM videos, a few days after I'd first seen the film, I originally concentrated on interviews with Jake and/or Heath. Oprah was the first interview I watched.
Shortly after that, I noticed the music videos. There are so many of them! It's amazing how many song lyrics are appropriate for Ennis and Jack's story.
Some of those videos are really beautiful! Like this one - the song is "Someone like you" by Adele:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHeV8Kun1OM&list=FLoXZNqSDnENisl-xnJIsBZg&index=23 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHeV8Kun1OM&list=FLoXZNqSDnENisl-xnJIsBZg&index=23)
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Ah yes, the fan videos.
Somewhere I have a collection of them burned to DVD. My favorite is on there, this one, done to "Far Away" by Nickleback.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-oZ1Ijn-9c
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Mmmm. You've got a point there, andy. Maybe the 'emotional coupling' would have been too much to ask, after all.
Now that I think of it, maybe it's just me wanting it so much - that emotional connection between Jack and Ennis. Let's leave that for the remake then... ;)
I wonder if the film would have had the same impact if they had lived happily ever after, and the answer is: of course not. If we saw them ride off into the sunset holding hands, it probably would not even have made our top 10 lists of faves, let alone get all the awards and accolades it received.
The genius of the ss and the movie is that they left us wanting, needing so much more that we couldn't even survive without this site, without HEA slash to get us through...can you imagine if this movie had been released before the internet existed? There would be small pockets of walking wounded all over the world, having to deal with the devastation alone...
Personally I'm glad they didn't expand on the ss to show more SNIT (although that was totally added to explain their depth of feeling that AP wrote in the paragraphs after FNIT) or DE, I think the filmmakers gave an excellent interpretation of APs descriptions….and the actors did a stupendous job of making us care.
Things were left out that I would have welcomed seeing: as someone mentioned earlier, Jack saying “that’s one a the two things I need right now”, Ennis saying "lil darlin", Ennis undoing buttons, the longer discussion at the Siesta Motel where Ennis really opened up - for him...the simple romantic notions of these two guys as they tried to face living in the world without the person they most loved….
It’s the tragedy of it all that creates our intense feelings for Jack and Ennis.
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Ah yes, the fan videos.
Somewhere I have a collection of them burned to DVD. My favorite is on there, this one, done to "Far Away" by Nickleback.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-oZ1Ijn-9c
This has always been my #1 favorite.
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Some of those videos are really beautiful! Like this one - the song is "Someone like you" by Adele:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHeV8Kun1OM&list=FLoXZNqSDnENisl-xnJIsBZg&index=23 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHeV8Kun1OM&list=FLoXZNqSDnENisl-xnJIsBZg&index=23)
This is a wonderful video, Sonja Thanks for posting it.
The very first time I saw this movie on January 8, 2006, I think I watched the movie with awe, not knowing what shape I was going to be in when the credits finished and the last song ended.
I had decided the day before I was not even going to go, because after reading everything about it, seeing all the English and foreign language trailers, I just knew that somehow my heart was not going to remain whole after having seen it. But I did go. I was breathless at the end. I knew after leaving that first time I would have to go back just to make sure I had seen what I had, and to take in everything I knew I had missed.
From the first viewing to the 30th, the scene that still, to this day, gives me a hitch in my breathing and makes the tears flow is the "I wish I knew how to quit you' scene. This for me was the most truthful scene between the two of them. When the music starts and Ennis answers, "Then why don't you?', my heart is broken and the tears start. I know this is going to be my reaction every single time, no matter how many times I see it.
But with the tears comes a cleansing. A realization, from seeing this deep hurt they have inflicted on one another, that out of it they will always be connected, even when they never see each other again. To this day I have never been able to actually define what this movie did to me and for me. I can identify things here and there, but never what it has done for my soul. Maybe it has told me that despite what we do to the ones we love, there will always be that connection, no matter what.
I can just never be sure. Maybe I never will, and maybe I don't need to.
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I pray there will never be a remake of Brokeback Mountain. Can't help it, but to me it would be like a sacrilege. And usually there are years & years before any remake is done, even of something rotten to the core.
And who could even dare to try? It is too much of a beloved classic film and classic masterpieces (IMO) should be left alone. Maybe this is the New England in me; to see them ... coupling ... would cheapen it and it is just not Ennis and Jack. I think Larry and Diana's screenplay is as good as it gets. (Even if they did delete the line in the 3rd version "... I know the feeling" coming from Ennis after Jack tells him he misses him so much he can hardly stand it. It's just not Ennis).
kathy
p.s. I wouldn't mind more kisses in the original though... ;)
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Thanks so much for your responses, guys. They are just wonderful to read.
...To this day I have never been able to actually define what this movie did to me and for me. I can identify things here and there, but never what it has done for my soul. Maybe it has told me that despite what we do to the ones we love, there will always be that connection, no matter what.
I can just never be sure. Maybe I never will, and maybe I don't need to.
This is what's it's like for me as well.
When I once tried to explain to my best friend why BBM had effected me so much, I just couldn't. My friend had seen the movie twice before I ever had and he was really impressed by it, so he sort of knew what I was talking about, but I just couldn't find the words to explain. When I told him that, he laughed a little, nodded and said: "I think I know why".
He was a gay man, and although he was happily married (to a man), I'm sure he must've seen some of his own struggle in the movie - calling it "heartbreaking".
Unfortunately, my friend passed away two days after we had that conversation :'(
None of my other friends feel the same way about this movie.
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I pray there will never be a remake of Brokeback Mountain. Can't help it, but to me it would be like a sacrilege. And usually there are years & years before any remake is done, even of something rotten to the core...
I reckon that any remake would be for another generation, certainly not for those of us who have experienced the original. Talk about a tough act to follow.
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When I once tried to explain to my best friend why BBM had effected me so much, I just couldn't.
I've tried as well, and haven't always been successful. One of my friends went on to say she had never been affected by a movie like I was by Brokeback, and I told her she's young, and still time, and her reply was 'I don't think that will ever happen to me.'
I thought that was sad.
I know of some Brokies who describe their lives as BB and AB. Before Brokeback and After Brokeback.
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I pray there will never be a remake of Brokeback Mountain. Can't help it, but to me it would be like a sacrilege. And usually there are years & years before any remake is done, even of something rotten to the core.
And who could even dare to try? It is too much of a beloved classic film and classic masterpieces (IMO) should be left alone. Maybe this is the New England in me; to see them ... coupling ... would cheapen it and it is just not Ennis and Jack. I think Larry and Diana's screenplay is as good as it gets. (Even if they did delete the line in the 3rd version "... I know the feeling" coming from Ennis after Jack tells him he misses him so much he can hardly stand it. It's just not Ennis).
kathy
p.s. I wouldn't mind more kisses in the original though... ;)
Kathy, you have to understand that there is just a small group of us so affected by Brokeback. For most people, it ranged from pretty good to yeww to I'm-not-interested-in-seeing-anything-like-that. The majority who watched the first time never went back for a second and all of us know people who simply didn't like it... we probably know more who didn't than who did. I used to be offended when someone didn't find Brokeback amazing, especially if it was someone I counted as a friend. (Where did I go wrong?!) But I have been amazed even more by the people I know who loved it, especially those I was surprised had even gone to see it. Over the last 7 years my world has become those I can say something Brokeback related to and those I can't. It's all good.
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I've tried as well, and haven't always been successful. One of my friends went on to say she had never been affected by a movie like I was by Brokeback, and I told her she's young, and still time, and her reply was 'I don't think that will ever happen to me.'
I thought that was sad.
I know of some Brokies who describe their lives as BB and AB. Before Brokeback and After Brokeback.
It had never occurred to me that I would be affected like that by Brokeback or any other film. I expected to be moved and saddened by it, and that's how it was - the first time round. The second time..... WHAM!
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For me, 'it' also happened on my second viewing.
I first watched it on a Tuesday evening and I thought it was an okay movie. By Thursday I thought - hmm, I think I'll go and watch it again - and so I did, a day later. And then, the movie hit me... at the moment where Jack and Ennis say goodbye in the parking lot and Jack drives away. I thought: "How can they let each other go like that, after all that's happened?" and from that moment on, I was hooked.
Kathy, you have to understand that there is just a small group of us so affected by Brokeback. For most people, it ranged from pretty good to yeww to I'm-not-interested-in-seeing-anything-like-that. The majority who watched the first time never went back for a second and all of us know people who simply didn't like it... we probably know more who didn't than who did. I used to be offended when someone didn't find Brokeback amazing, especially if it was someone I counted as a friend. (Where did I go wrong?!) But I have been amazed even more by the people I know who loved it, especially those I was surprised had even gone to see it. Over the last 7 years my world has become those I can say something Brokeback related to and those I can't. It's all good.
Anything-like-that... that means two guys kissing and falling in love, right? A lot of people just don't seem to look beyond the 'gay cowboy' stigma of the movie, which is a complete shame.
Some of my friends think the movie is too slow and they just don't see the importance of the scenes on the mountain as "nothing happens" (or so they think). Well, what do they know? ;)
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In the beginning I couldn't understand why others saw this movie and then just went out to dinner and talked about work as though nothing had happened to them. When I first saw it, and for me it was instant devastation and wonder equally mixed, I became completely consumed by it. You know how it is at the start of this journey. Very gradually I began to understand one salient fact. If a person does not "get" Brokeback there's nothing, absolutely nothing you can do or say which will make any difference. They simply don't have the equipment we were born with, namely the empathy which enables us not to just understand the tragedy going on before us but to actually feel the pain and the joy. I believe it's called "affected empathy" and you either have it or you don't. That's why most of us sat stunned at the end and others went out cheerfully to buy more popcorn.
Very gradually over the years I've developed a different attitude. Now I don't ever attempt to explain my feelings for the film or the special place the characters have in my heart. Now it's become more secretive, something that's with me every single day, a precious thing I share with others who have become almost like family to me and not something to show the "others". I won't reveal it to be bruised and pawed over and misunderstood. I've been there and done that in those early evangelical days. Not any longer.
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I like your post, malachite!
In the beginning I couldn't understand why others saw this movie and then just went out to dinner and talked about work as though nothing had happened to them. ... Very gradually I began to understand one salient fact. If a person does not "get" Brokeback there's nothing, absolutely nothing you can do or say which will make any difference. They simply don't have the equipment we were born with, namely the empathy which enables us not to just understand the tragedy going on before us but to actually feel the pain and the joy. I believe it's called "affected empathy" and you either have it or you don't. That's why most of us sat stunned at the end and others went out cheerfully to buy more popcorn.
I guess you're right :)
Very gradually over the years I've developed a different attitude. Now I don't ever attempt to explain my feelings for the film or the special place the characters have in my heart. Now it's become more secretive, something that's with me every single day, a precious thing I share with others who have become almost like family to me and not something to show the "others". I won't reveal it to be bruised and pawed over and misunderstood. I've been there and done that in those early evangelical days. Not any longer.
Well, I don't like to be secretive about Brokeback, and I certainly don't feel misunderstood, but I get your point. Lots of 'others' just don't care. Sometimes it feels lonely in the real world, doesn't it?
Hugs to you! :-*
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The wonderful thing for me is that the Brokeback world has become part of the real world too - in the friends that I talk to here, by email, on the phone, on Skype, and best of all have met face to face here in England and around the world (well, 4 countries so far!). It has changed my life so much - not that there was anything wrong with it before, but it's just so different.
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That is so true, Sara. I had friends..................then I had Brokie friends...........now my real life friends and my Brokie friends are all one!
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Isn't it amazing how all of our divergent paths have combined to bring us all here. The movie and my reactions to it, joining the forum, meeting all of you virtually and luckily in real life, have taken my life far beyond what I had ever envisioned for myself. It has allowed me to meet people (virtually and in RL) I never would have had an opportunity to do so. Knowing so many has helped me in the decisions I have made over the last years. They have supported me, and helped me to understand and make some hard decisions.
In a room full of Brokies, who all 'get' it, it still is hard to put into words how we have all been affected. Everyone's affectation is as individual as the person. But because we 'get' it, it is not so important to have to verbalize it, we just know, without having to describe it.
And isn't this a wonderful room to be in?
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It is. :-*
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Did they maybe replace that one with "Tell you what....sometimes I miss you so much...."?
I think APs original worked quite nicely.....
But that was after it was made clear that several years had gone by.
I clearly recall that the first time I saw the film I started to wonder why they thought it necessary to hide anything by that time.
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Do you mean hide anything from each other?
That's what I thought, too...and why the lack of response and reaction to Jack's soul-baring statement hit me so hard...Ennis please....say something...in your own simple words, say what you're thinking, or what you're feeling...but no, he couldn't...
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Yeah, that's all I think when I watch it: "Say something, Ennis!" Jack was so brave, saying he needed Ennis and Ennis... he just wasn't ready. He wasn't ready until it was too late.
Another one I didn't quite 'get' at my first couple of viewings was the Dozy Embrace :D Jack with a moustache, then without... and then with a moustache again - what?! Then I noticed Ennis was much younger as well - oh OK, it's a flashback! :D
Now it's one of my absolute favorite scenes in the film. Too short, but beautiful.
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I like your post, malachite!
I guess you're right :)
Well, I don't like to be secretive about Brokeback, and I certainly don't feel misunderstood, but I get your point. Lots of 'others' just don't care. Sometimes it feels lonely in the real world, doesn't it?
Hugs to you! :-*
Hi. Just to clear up a couple of things I didn't make clear obviously. I think the word "private" might explain better than "secret". I was trying to explain that now I don't have any compunction to try to turn people onto what I feel for the film like I did in the beginning. Now it's more of a "mine" type thing and to heck with the people who don't get it.
I also personally don't feel "misunderstood". I was referring to how many still use that reductive term "gay cowboy movie" which in itself implies that they have no understanding of the complexity involved and therefore misunderstand what it's about. And thanks for the Brokie hugs...always welcome though it's very far from lonely. ;D
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Hi malachite!
I'm a fairly new Brokie, so I'm still trying to convince people to buy the DVD, even though I should've known better in some cases... Hell, when I spot a Brokeback DVD in a shop, I still try to convince every single costomer to buy a copy! :D
And maybe I misread the "misunderstood" bit - thanks for clearing it up! :)
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BJD, I always put the Brokeback movie at the front of the pile, on full view. ;D
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It is. :-*
And I am so very lucky you are one of the ones in the room with me, Sara! :-*
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This has always been my #1 favorite.
Ditto. I have this one in favs.. and watch it periodically as a reminder. V.
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This is a wonderful video, Sonja Thanks for posting it.
The very first time I saw this movie on January 8, 2006, I think I watched the movie with awe, not knowing what shape I was going to be in when the credits finished and the last song ended.
I had decided the day before I was not even going to go, because after reading everything about it, seeing all the English and foreign language trailers, I just knew that somehow my heart was not going to remain whole after having seen it. But I did go. I was breathless at the end. I knew after leaving that first time I would have to go back just to make sure I had seen what I had, and to take in everything I knew I had missed.
From the first viewing to the 30th, the scene that still, to this day, gives me a hitch in my breathing and makes the tears flow is the "I wish I knew how to quit you' scene. This for me was the most truthful scene between the two of them. When the music starts and Ennis answers, "Then why don't you?', my heart is broken and the tears start. I know this is going to be my reaction every single time, no matter how many times I see it.
But with the tears comes a cleansing. A realization, from seeing this deep hurt they have inflicted on one another, that out of it they will always be connected, even when they never see each other again. To this day I have never been able to actually define what this movie did to me and for me. I can identify things here and there, but never what it has done for my soul. Maybe it has told me that despite what we do to the ones we love, there will always be that connection, no matter what.
I can just never be sure. Maybe I never will, and maybe I don't need to.
I agree 100%. Very well stated! That scene is one of the most powerful... but you don't get the significance ..UNTIL the post card arrives. Then it wounds like a ton of bricks - the hindsight is a body slammer and quite overwhelming - even after many viewings but that first was almost breathless. The significance varies for each of us but for me much reflects from our lives or rather possible lives but ones not lived. We "Brokies" seem most at home with BBM when we gather as Brokies at events and viewings. These are some of the few times, I know I am surrounded by people who truly understand the film's depth, it's meaning and appreciate each other without judgement, without prejudice. We share the best of what this film yanks out of us. V
V.
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BJD, I always put the Brokeback movie at the front of the pile, on full view. ;D
I do that too. ;D
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BJD, I always put the Brokeback movie at the front of the pile, on full view. ;D
:D Exactly! Me too!
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But that was after it was made clear that several years had gone by.
I clearly recall that the first time I saw the film I started to wonder why they thought it necessary to hide anything by that time.
Things are so different, even now, but in some ways not different enough.
When I attended Linda's BBQ in Boerne, I went with a spirit of openness and a real appreciation for being in the group where we were all going through something similar and huge, our on-line forum (which really WAS huge then).
It wasn't until the last day that I realized some of the men there could not be open about it in their lives at home -- because of homophobia. That is when it really hit me what living in the closet means -- and it's not to say they were even in the closet. But some may have not yet come out to their families, or at work, or just wanted anonymity.
But -- it's getting better. I hope.
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This is a wonderful video, Sonja Thanks for posting it.
The very first time I saw this movie on January 8, 2006, I think I watched the movie with awe, not knowing what shape I was going to be in when the credits finished and the last song ended.
I had decided the day before I was not even going to go, because after reading everything about it, seeing all the English and foreign language trailers, I just knew that somehow my heart was not going to remain whole after having seen it. But I did go. I was breathless at the end. I knew after leaving that first time I would have to go back just to make sure I had seen what I had, and to take in everything I knew I had missed.
From the first viewing to the 30th, the scene that still, to this day, gives me a hitch in my breathing and makes the tears flow is the "I wish I knew how to quit you' scene. This for me was the most truthful scene between the two of them. When the music starts and Ennis answers, "Then why don't you?', my heart is broken and the tears start. I know this is going to be my reaction every single time, no matter how many times I see it.
But with the tears comes a cleansing. A realization, from seeing this deep hurt they have inflicted on one another, that out of it they will always be connected, even when they never see each other again. To this day I have never been able to actually define what this movie did to me and for me. I can identify things here and there, but never what it has done for my soul. Maybe it has told me that despite what we do to the ones we love, there will always be that connection, no matter what.
I can just never be sure. Maybe I never will, and maybe I don't need to.
This is my favorite scene in the book and in the film because when I read it (before I saw the film) I was completely gripped by it -- wow! finally! at last Jack is laying it ON Ennis! it's all here! -- and then Ennis manages to sidestep the moment but having a faux heart attack -- he'd literally rather die than answer Jack's accusations with words.
Or -- let Jack leave him.
But the experience of the story -- for me -- is that afterwards, I did expect we were on the path to some resolution, and so it is the pivotal scene (pre-shirts) -- from that point, at their next meeting, maybe Ennis COULD have changed or -- as we get a hint -- actually Jack changed, and tried to venture out.
(But no, I don't believe Jack quit Ennis. Politics always enters every discussion. :D )
There would have been more for them to deal with, had Jack lived. Instead, the postcard.
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Do you mean hide anything from each other?
No; sorry, I didn't word the original post clearly. I meant that while we could assume that they still had a soul-mate/sexual relationship, what we saw in the second half of the film would suggest to someone who hadn't seen the first half that they were what Ennis claimed to Alma they were -- fishing buddies.
Of course, the space between the former (what was really between them) and the latter (what it appeared to be) was among the things that wore down both men and their relationship over the years. :(
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...what we saw in the second half of the film would suggest to someone who hadn't seen the first half that they were what Ennis claimed to Alma they were -- fishing buddies.
This is exactly why I would've liked to have seen a bit more physical intimacy between them in the latter part. Sorry to bring this up again ;) , but it really is one of my very few dislikes about the film.
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Same here (other than that Oscar thing). ;D
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My major gripe is there's no embrace or kiss when Ennis arrives and Jack is cooking corn over the campfire. Instead, it's "Look what I brought" and "You're late." (Of course, the Oscar snub surpasses my capacity for expressing outrage.)
A kiss would have extended the movie for 5-10 seconds. (If I'd been either Jack or Ennis, it would have extended it for 5 minutes.) Ang must have had a reason for not doing that, but it was a mistake.
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BJD, I always put the Brokeback movie at the front of the pile, on full view. ;D
I do too......BUT...... I always have the feeling nobody should own it ..... but me. I feel very possessive about the movie.....like it's mine...it belongs to me. Jack and Ennis are mine . How weird is that ? Does anybody else feel that way ??
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I believe I feel this way sometimes too, sue; the emotions I have for the film and the boys are so strong. It just hits me in the heart all the time.
kathy
p.s. I love this sentence from marc (I hope I'm not OT here):
" ... the Oscar snub surpasses my capacity for expressing outrage."
My sentiments exactly.
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I do too......BUT...... I always have the feeling nobody should own it ..... but me. I feel very possessive about the movie.....like it's mine...it belongs to me. Jack and Ennis are mine . How weird is that ? Does anybody else feel that way ??
Yeah. Me!!! ;D
It's sooooooooo weird. I'd like the whole world to embrace this movie - and yet... it's mine. I once commented on a YouTube video, saying I only first saw BBM last year and how much I loved it and that it's my favorite movie and all that and someone else replied: " congrats, man. it's a GREAT feeling when you first know "this is THE film for me." go on loving it :) "
Well, that person obviously thought I was a guy ;D , but that comment made me feel so good! Yep, Brokeback is MY movie. It's official now! :)
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My major gripe is there's no embrace or kiss when Ennis arrives and Jack is cooking corn over the campfire. Instead, it's "Look what I brought" and "You're late." (Of course, the Oscar snub surpasses my capacity for expressing outrage.)
A kiss would have extended the movie for 5-10 seconds. (If I'd been either Jack or Ennis, it would have extended it for 5 minutes.) Ang must have had a reason for not doing that, but it was a mistake.
I just remembered this. A few yrs. back in one magazine someone had a question re why this scene was not extended more and show them "greet" each other; they were so happy to be together. The answer was that there was more filmed: Jack was cooking steaks on the grill, Ennis arrives and says "look what I got" (beans) and something else afterwards. I don't know why these clips were not in the film. I think it was AL who may have cut them out and think it was a mistake.
I'd love to see what was on the cutting room floor.
kathy
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Let's face it, if the film had run five and a half hours instead of two, it would not have been long enough.
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Let's face it, if the film had run five and a half hours instead of two, it would not have been long enough.
lmao! I can't imagine watching a 5 hour film!
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Let's face it, if the film had run five and a half hours instead of two, it would not have been long enough.
Five and a half hours of Brokeback? Count me in!
Let's imagine they included all the deleted scenes, all the different takes and angles... :D
Kathy is right: I'd love to see those too.
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At the moment, I'm re-watching the famous Oprah interview on YouTube and reading the comments on there.
Someone posted this comment just five days ago:
"I would like to sit down with Jake now, all these years later, and get his opinion of the film now. His interviews then were all over the map, so I think he dealt with a lot of embarrassment at the time. I would love to see his hindsight."
I would love that, too.
Jake has done so many movies since then and has grown as an actor and as a person. For instance, he said his latest movie "End of Watch" was a life-changing experience for him.
I'm sure Brokeback was, too - and maybe even in a bigger way.
We talk about that in the Eyelashes thread sometimes, but I wonder how other Brokies feel about that.
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He took a lot of heat as an actor and male and was quite defensive at times. I can imagine many of the comments, sneers and looks he received. I want to believe in 25 years or 50 years, BBM will be viewed through a different lens and be recognized as a critical film which marked a turning point in recognition of this subject matter. I hope one day Oprah will do that interview, maybe with him and Dianna and see if the arch of time has changed the tones. V.
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^^^
I can't see why or how Jake got all the flack ....... and Heath didn't .
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Yes, it sure seems like Jake got most of the 'flack', as you put it, Sue.
As some of you may know, I wasn't around as a Brokie when BBM was released back in 2005, but even now, many years later, there seems to be a certain "thing" about the role of Jack Twist. I've read a lot of snappy comments on Jake's performance. Some even said he 'unbalanced' the movie. I don't know how to put it exactly, but it must've been hard for Jake to take. I wonder how he feels about it now, particularly because of Brokeback's now somewhat immortal status - also because of Heath's tragic and untimely death.
The feeling must be so bittersweet, for both Jake and Michelle.
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^^^
I can't see why or how Jake got all the flack ....... and Heath didn't .
Oh, Heath got it too. The "speculation" about them was all over the place before & after BBM was generally released. Then the film was such an outstanding success . What a wonderful thing, the response being beautiful by a mainstream audience.
The fact that Heath got involved with a girlfriend on set later and even had a baby with her in late Sept. of the next year had to have lessened it for him.
IMO though, I don't think either Jake or Heath had it easy, no matter when. They, as well as the film, are just so great. I thought it was the most wonderful thing when Heath wanted Jake as godfather to Matilda. What a bond they had/have. Just recently, Jake told an interviewer how much he loved BBM, how grateful he was to it, the people he loved - mw, Heath. It was a very revealing interview. He sounded very sad at times when talking about it.
No surprise to me; none at all.
kathy
I think Brokeback Mountain had a tremendous effect on both of them in many ways.
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Let's face it, if the film had run five and a half hours instead of two, it would not have been long enough.
You are correct, shari!
kathy :)
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Five and a half hours of Brokeback? Count me in!
Let's imagine they included all the deleted scenes, all the different takes and angles... :D
Kathy is right: I'd love to see those too.
Thank you, bcj.
kathy :)
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^^^
Count me in too. You bring the popcorn....I'll bring a case load of tissues.
Wouldn't it be great ? :)
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So I have a question - this summer marks the 50th anniversary of Ennis and Jack going up to Brokeback... did I read somewhere on an old thread that the ficticious date is thought to be June 5th?
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I've never heard of that date before. Why that specific date? Any suggestions?
The 50th anniversary of Ennis and Jack going up to Brokeback... that's interesting. And a bit weird. 50 years ago this year...
Somehow it makes me sad to think of that - don't know why :-\ :'(
Never thought of it before at all.
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^^^^^^^^
Let me correct myself: of course I remember the date - it's Alma Jr.'s wedding day in 1984 (according to the script).
She says: "The wedding will be June 5th at the Methodist Church".
I just thought of it while I was taking a shower ::) How obsessed am I? ;D
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LOL. I love it when that happens!!
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I read on this forum (no idea where or when!) that it was supposed that June 5th (Alma Jr's wedding date) was significant to Ennis as it was the date he and Jack went up to BBM together, and that FNIT occurred a month later (we are guided by the moon in the film - it was full on their first night at Brokeback and on FNIT) - the date of FNIT being supposed as July 4th which was why Ennis was feeling especially sensitive on that same date a few years later at the Independence Day firework display - a correlation was made between the metaphorical fireworks in FNIT.
In any case I reckon that the date is just about right for the time period in which the sheep could be grazed on the mountain.
I was just interested if that was the date everyone thought as it is personally significant to me!
x
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I'm quite sure you must've read that in the Symbolism and Imagery threads. I seem to recall I've read it as well, now that you've mentioned it.
So, it was June 5th when they went up on Brokeback and "the middle of August" when Aguirre told them to "bring 'em down", which means that they were up on Brokeback for about nine weeks. Nine life-changing weeks for both of them... :)
Somehow it doesn't feel like nine weeks in the film to me. Things were so suddenly cut short - I always feel like they had about six weeks together.
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I have to be honest, I don't think I've ever paid attention to any of the dates in the book or movie. I'm not sure why, they just never caught my eye or stuck in my brain.
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Seriosly, I have to join this conversation, its so interesting. As I alredy have writen somewhere that I havent read a book (im planing to when I grab it) but I have watched the movie, on the other side I havent put so attention to the details you all pointed out here. When I do watch BBM next time Im seriosly gona try to find some corelation between some important moments in the movie and put those pieces together but I think that one more watching is not going to help. Only after phew times youre gona put a puzzle together. But im mostly intrigued about that corelation of 5th June of FNIT and Fireworks day
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As I recall, there was a long discussion about years as well. My own perception has been that Jack died in the spring of 1983 -- 20 years after they first met, and that the film's last scene was about a year later. But I remember others making a case for it being a year or even two years later than that. The ss would be about the same.
Of course, since this is fiction and not history, the anomalies might be built-in. :) But six weeks for their time together on the mountain, at least in the movie version, does make sense.
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I have to be honest, I don't think I've ever paid attention to any of the dates in the book or movie. I'm not sure why, they just never caught my eye or stuck in my brain.
I started paying attention to the dates when I first read the Story to Screenplay book. There are a couple of flaws in the script I believe, as far as the dates are concerned, but nothing major.
The first quotes I always remember are Ennis's "Why? It's the middle of August" and Jack's "Four years... damn", and later: 'Ev'ry four fuckin' years?"
Vlad, do you mean you haven't read the short story yet? I strongly suggest you try the "Story to Screenplay" book, as it has both the short story and the screenplay - two for the price of one! It's nice to compare the story and the script.
They're pretty different, though.
Six weeks on the mountain... I wish it would've been longer. They deserved it.
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I have to be honest, I don't think I've ever paid attention to any of the dates in the book or movie. I'm not sure why, they just never caught my eye or stuck in my brain.
Me neither.
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I started paying attention to the dates when I first read the Story to Screenplay book. There are a couple of flaws in the script I believe, as far as the dates are concerned, but nothing major.
The first quotes I always remember are Ennis's "Why? It's the middle of August" and Jack's "Four years... damn", and later: 'Ev'ry four fuckin' years?"
Vlad, do you mean you haven't read the short story yet? I strongly suggest you try the "Story to Screenplay" book, as it has both the short story and the screenplay - two for the price of one! It's nice to compare the story and the script.
They're pretty different, though.
Six weeks on the mountain... I wish it would've been longer. They deserved it.
Yea, I havent read the stort story yet because you cant buy it here where I live, only way is to order it on line. I have to start working and get an credit card so I can go into shoping online :) Until then, I have to satisfy myself with the movie. And thank you for your sugestion that I should try to find Story to screenplay book when I do get to buying phase.
Yes, six weeks only, thats not enought, I also think they deserved a bit more enjoyment...
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Me neither.
... Whut?! I can hardly read that ;) :D :D
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Me neither.
sounds like Jack :D
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During their first Summer, snow came early, August 13th. A week later, presumably the week of August 20th, Aguirre told them to bring the sheep down from the mountain.
If they were only on the mountain for six weeks, then they did no go up until around July 1, which doesn't make much sense to some I suppose.
We know they both applied for the the jobs through Farm and Ranch Employment in the Spring of 1963.
We also know that on their ride up the mountain with the sheep, horses, dogs, etc, that they encountered "flowery meadows" above the tree line.. This would indicate late May, early June.
It appears as though we are to assume they were there most of June, all July and the first two or three weeks of August though June appears to go against the customs of the era.
Their last trip was in May of 1983. Jack died at some point after that but prior to November of 1983.
This is all pretty specific in the SS. The film is less specific.
ETA: Ennis' eldest daughter was born in August of 1964 so she is 19 in August of 1983. So figure out how old she in the last scene when she tells Ennis about getting married and you can approximate when that scene occurs. The last scene (or prologue) of the SS takes place many, many, years subsequent to 1983.
The "Jack, I swear" scene in the SS occurs several weeks subsequent to Ennis' trip to visit Jack's parents and that trip appears to be in the Spring of 1984 since we are told about weeds and plastic flowers in the small fenced cemetery. (though I think a decent argument could be made that the trip to Jack's parents might have been in the late Summer or early Fall of 1983).
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I never thought that their time together on the mountain was as little as six weeks. Larry & Diana do not indicate anything like that in the final screenplay, not do we get that impression in the film. I say "the film" 'cause it is always the film for me.
IMO it was from early June (probably the first week) to probably early to mid-August; that would be about 2 months and close to 1-2 weeks. Just can't imagine such a short period of 6 weeks would form that forever bond and love E&J have/had.
kathy
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I agree with you, Kathy, 10 to 12 weeks. I always thought they went up sometime in May; AP says they signed up for the job in the spring, but doesn't say they actually went up there then, I just think that Aguirre would want to get the sheep up there to graze as early as possible.
In 1963 when he met Jack Twist, Ennis was engaged to Alma Beers......That spring, hungry for any job, each had signed up with Farm and Ranch Employment --
and then came down a month early, in August...8/20
The first snow came early, on August thirteenth, piling up a foot, but was followed by a quick melt. The next week Joe Aguirre sent word to bring them down --
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I never thought that their time together on the mountain was as little as six weeks. Larry & Diana do not indicate anything like that in the final screenplay, not do we get that impression in the film. I say "the film" 'cause it is always the film for me.
IMO it was from early June (probably the first week) to probably early to mid-August; that would be about 2 months and close to 1-2 weeks. Just can't imagine such a short period of 6 weeks would form that forever bond and love E&J have/had.
kathy
Brilliant analysis. Well, we have several members here who are FB friends with Ms. Ossana. Why not ask them to ask her?
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Gary, I just read your post and totally agree with you, also...they may have gone up in May, maybe even April, but definitely they were there in June, July and for 3 weeks in August...plenty of time to fall in love :)
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Gary, I just read your post and totally agree with you, also...they may have gone up in May, maybe even April, but definitely they were there in June, July and for 3 weeks in August...plenty of time to fall in love :)
Well, plenty of time to have sex, get totally confused, and then, four years later, at least for totally repressed, self loathing Ennis, realize he is something he does not believe he should be. And yes, they fell in love. You know it, I know it. Jack "knew" it, Ennis "knew" it but could not accept it for a very long time. Not his fault, really. His world view simply did not encompass this sort of reality. Ennis always had a very difficult time with what he "knew" and what he "tried to believe". There was alway some space between the two.
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Brilliant analysis. Well, we have several members here who are FB friends with Ms. Ossana. Why not ask them to ask her?
Thanks, gary and mb. I agree with both of you in your posts too.
Kathy :)
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Brilliant analysis. Well, we have several members here who are FB friends with Ms. Ossana. Why not ask them to ask her?
I'll post the question on FB. I know she'll see it but I don't know how soon. She isn't online every day.
I'm also sending her a package next week with a couple of BBM gifts, so if anyone wants to send a message I'll be happy to include it in the package.
Earlier this year Diana received the handwritten journal of thank you messages we put together and she posted this:
My dear friends,
I just received the most amazing gift today in the mail. It's a beautiful journal, made more beautiful by what it contains: personal notes from many, many people whose lives have been touched by the film "Brokeback Mountain." So gracious, so generous, so genuine. When it's all said and done--when I'm worn out from simply dealing with the hardships that life sends everyone's way--something like this arrives, and my faith in humanity is restored. Thank you, thank you, thank you!
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Having traveled to Colorado 7 times in the past 3 years, half the time in April, May and June, I have a better feel for the climate and growing season in the Rockies now. In addition, I live in the Pyrenees where the transhumance of sheep is a tradition. Here it never happens before June because it can still snow in May, which I know from experience is certainly the case in the Rockies. Early June is still technically Spring, and in most high altitude places in the western states June doesn't feel like summer -- and it's when the alpine flowers are most abundant.
so I believe they had 2.5 months up there.
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I never thought that their time together on the mountain was as little as six weeks. Larry & Diana do not indicate anything like that in the final screenplay, not do we get that impression in the film. I say "the film" 'cause it is always the film for me.
IMO it was from early June (probably the first week) to probably early to mid-August; that would be about 2 months and close to 1-2 weeks. Just can't imagine such a short period of 6 weeks would form that forever bond and love E&J have/had.
kathy
It's "the film" for me too, although I appreciate the short story as well - it's just that the film has a much bigger impact on me.
Watching the first 40 minutes of the film, I don't know, to me it always feels like they're up there for months and months - or that's what I like to believe ;)
2.5 months sounds fine to me!
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Having traveled to Colorado 7 times in the past 3 years, half the time in April, May and June, I have a better feel for the climate and growing season in the Rockies now. In addition, I live in the Pyrenees where the transhumance of sheep is a tradition. Here it never happens before June because it can still snow in May, which I know from experience is certainly the case in the Rockies. Early June is still technically Spring, and in most high altitude places in the western states June doesn't feel like summer -- and it's when the alpine flowers are most abundant.
so I believe they had 2.5 months up there.
When we were in the Rocky Mountain National Park the second week in May this year, some of the high routes were still closed by snow, and there was still quite a lot of lying snow around, although not particularly cold at the altitude that we were at.
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It's "the film" for me too, although I appreciate the short story as well - it's just that the film has a much bigger impact on me.
Watching the first 40 minutes of the film, I don't know, to me it always feels like they're up there for months and months - or that's what I like to believe ;)
2.5 months sounds fine to me!
Hi bcj:
Thx for your answer; I think so too.
Remember when Ennis said about Aguirre: "besides, he's cutting us out of a month's pay"? Well, I was originally thinking of our boys being on BBM closer to 3 months.
It gets cold up there in those mountains, and maybe they started earlier than we think. Still, I still believe it was certainly closer to 3 months than less.
Kathy :-* :-*
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Having traveled to Colorado 7 times in the past 3 years, half the time in April, May and June, I have a better feel for the climate and growing season in the Rockies now. In addition, I live in the Pyrenees where the transhumance of sheep is a tradition. Here it never happens before June because it can still snow in May, which I know from experience is certainly the case in the Rockies. Early June is still technically Spring, and in most high altitude places in the western states June doesn't feel like summer -- and it's when the alpine flowers are most abundant.
so I believe they had 2.5 months up there.
I agree with that. If Wyoming's climate is similar to that of Utah or Montana, it wouldn't likely be any earlier than June.
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One of the many things I have always admired about AP’s work is that her stories usually reflect a well-documented understanding of the culture, environment, and customs of the people and environs about which she writes. Not only does this add an extra dimension of interest to her stories, it also assists the reader in understanding the motivation and world-view of her characters.
My guess in that AP had a fairly firm grasp of the high meadow grazing practices of the era in which BBM takes place.
Here is an excerpt from a USDA study of the practice in Montana:
Perennial tall forb (PTF) communities are productive, high elevation, grazing lands characterized by a short growing season (<90 d) and abundant 0.5- to 1.5-m tall perennial forbs. In a southwest Montana study area, domestic sheep have grazed these communities from July 1 to August 15 each year prior to 1989, and in just 2 of every 3 years since 1989.
Aguirre (and actual real people upon whom he is no doubt based ) used public land for grazing and this public land was supervised by the government and this supervision included specific usage dates. It appears that the dates were specifically designed to insure that the land was not over-grazed and that it allowed for the replenishment, (growth) of grazing material from one season to the next.
Consequently a time period for Jack and Ennis to be on the mountain restricted to July 1 through mid to late August would seem to represent the norm rather than the exception.
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I live in the Pyrenees where the transhumance of sheep is a tradition.
I just love the word "transhumance'. I never use it. I seldom have the opportunity but it is a good word.
(https://ultimatebrokebackforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi302.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fnn86%2Fgary8194%2Fmoutons-enfant_zpsbd0a98c1.jpg&hash=e7a0c4a427cd8586b585a00efbb891826176d9f3)
And here is a cool sight which mentions the subject.
http://www.avignon-et-provence.com/tourism/fete-transhumance/#.UcC0Br-urzY (http://www.avignon-et-provence.com/tourism/fete-transhumance/#.UcC0Br-urzY)
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When I was trying to learn to drive a stick shift here, I got caught up in a river of sheep on the road. They were going the same direction as me so I couldn't just wait it out. My most nerve-wracking driving experience...
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When we were in the Rocky Mountain National Park the second week in May this year, some of the high routes were still closed by snow, and there was still quite a lot of lying snow around, although not particularly cold at the altitude that we were at.
When I was up there at the begining of September 2 years ago.....some of the roads had already got the "barriers"
across for no entry. One moning we woke up and it had snowed during the night.Mind you ....we were in the middle of nowhere.......three quaters away up a mountain !!!
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When I was trying to learn to drive a stick shift here, I got caught up in a river of sheep on the road. They were going the same direction as me so I couldn't just wait it out. My most nerve-wracking driving experience...
I remember the same thing happening on a road in the Navajo Nation. Had to make liberal use of the horn!
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When I was up there at the begining of September 2 years ago.....some of the roads had already got the "barriers"
across for no entry. One moning we woke up and it had snowed during the night.Mind you ....we were in the middle of nowhere.......three quaters away up a mountain !!!
After England most places in that part of the USA seem to be the middle of nowhere. :D
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I imagine after being crammed into GB's 94,525 square miles with 60 million other people, Wyoming's 97,818 square miles would seem a little... spacious for its 568,158 residents.
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It certainly did!
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I suppose you all know about the floodings in the Calgary/Canmore area in Alberta.
That's where a lot of the filming locations are situated.
It's probably too early to know the full effect of the damage, but it seems pretty bad at certain places.
Goat Creek (camp site #2), and Elbow River (no reins on this one) seem to be especially badly affected.
They may be lost to us :-\
There are Brokies living in the area, I imagine we'll get word about the situation at some point.
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Calgary
(https://ultimatebrokebackforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv157%2Fdandydoodles%2F379614_10151700047395874_1293098482_n_zps81a7868b.jpg&hash=2b930d57996ebc7520c9ea12aad4083e4f89d5ef)
Got the pic and this in the mail today:
It's one of those 100 year floods. It's confined to the river valleys and flood plains. Our home and our business are on higher ground and are unaffected, but there are about 75,000 evacuated from their neighborhoods and the entire downtown area is shut down with no power until sometime later next week.
The attached pic shows one of our light rail transit stations just south of the downtown area. The water is probably 5 to 8 feet deep here.
Cheers,
D
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It looks bad. :(
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Yes, it does :o
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Randall was cute but Ennis and Jack are better together. Monroe was a cutie too. I always thought Alma had feelings for him secretly even though he is a minor character. You can tell they like each other during that scene in the store. You can tell Monroe likes Alma by the way she looks at him. I'm sure he would have made her a really happy woman. I mean I don't blame Jack for having sex with Latino male prostitutes in Mexico. I mean sexual repression is not normal, natural or healthy for any human being to do to themselves. I hate sexual repression more than anything else in the world. Another negative aspect of religion that I hate because of the harm it does. I am an atheist but I am not anti-religious, but I will criticize religion when it promotes ideas or engages in behaviors that hurt others. I mean romantic repression is just as bad as sexual repression and I am against both romantic and sexual repression. Everyone has the right to fall in love and make love with another consenting adult or even more than one consenting adult at the same time as long as they are not cheating on their spouse or lover in my own humble opinion. I don't condone cheating your spouse or your lover as people get hurt over this.
I don't believe Ennis was 'in love' with Alma, I think he loved her as a person and as the mother of his children but he did not love her in a romantic and sexual way. The religioustolerance website believes Ennis and Jack were bisexual. I disagree with rt's conclusion. Ennis and Jack were gay to me and I'm not changing my opinion about that. Jack was not in love with Lureen, but I do think he loved her as a person and respected her for the person she was and admired her role as a mother and a hard worker. Ennis and Jack were in love with only each other.
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I don't know where else to post this but um, here it goes:
How many of you are on Bettermost or Ennis and Jack forums? Is it Jack and Ennis.net? What's are the addresses to Bettermost and Ennis and Jack forums? What's that BBM Foundation website on wordpress address, again? I can only imagine what the BBM Facebook page is like. I wouldn't go there because I'm not in the mood to deal with bigots. That's why I left the IMDB forum for BBM because of the bigots. I was done with their stupidity and besides the religious fanatics really bugged me, especially after being a new convert to atheism. BTW, this was a few years ago. I enjoy BBM of course. I don't have the same amount of zeal that many of you do because I don't have the time. It would be nice if I did though.
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This forum is awesome but I don't like that we cannot post our own discussions on BBM and have people reply to them. That's the only downside.
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The only BBM website / forum that I'm on is this one! I'd be online 24/7 if I joined all three of them, it would take up far too much time, I'm afraid :-\ And besides, this is by far the most interesting 'place to be' as far as BBM in concerned!
I suggest you just use Google to find the Bettermost and Ennis&Jack forum.
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http://www.today.com/health/long-distance-love-may-be-stronger-you-think-new-study-6C10660702
Long distance relationships never work, the colloquial wisdom goes.
Not true, according to a small but growing number of social science studies.
There's been some discussion that the 20+ year long distance relationship
of Ennis and Jack wasn't realistic, the above info lends credence to the idea
that their relationship was realistic.
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http://www.today.com/health/long-distance-love-may-be-stronger-you-think-new-study-6C10660702
Long distance relationships never work, the colloquial wisdom goes.
Not true, according to a small but growing number of social science studies.
There's been some discussion that the 20+ year long distance relationship
of Ennis and Jack wasn't realistic, the above info lends credence to the idea
that their relationship was realistic.
The love affair between Ennis and Jack was realistic. Their 20 year relationship was strong. They were so repressed, Ennis suffered from severe internalized homophobia, they lived in two different states , had kids to take care of and had to make a living. There is no doubt that they would have been together more often if it were possible.
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I don't know that I'd go along with them both being repressed. Ennis, certainly, but Jack's, if repressed, was of a different kind - that instigated by Ennis himself. I reckon Jack's approach to who he was and what he wanted was pretty straight forward. Of course, they both suffered the social repression of the society of the day but even then, considering the neck of the woods that they frequented, not so bad, maybe.
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I don't know that I'd go along with them both being repressed. Ennis, certainly, but Jack's, if repressed, was of a different kind - that instigated by Ennis himself. I reckon Jack's approach to who he was and what he wanted was pretty straight forward. Of course, they both suffered the social repression of the society of the day but even then, considering the neck of the woods that they frequented, not so bad, maybe.
Well, they both were repressed at first when they were on Brokeback Mountain, Jack was more sexual and Ennis only had sexual relations with Jack. Social repression is what I was referring to.
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Well, they both were repressed at first when they were on Brokeback Mountain, Jack was more sexual and Ennis only had sexual relations with Jack. Social repression is what I was referring to.
Jack was at least in the closet for most of his life -- we do know that.
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Jack seemed to be more open and accepting of his sexuality, I can only imagine what his life was like living out in the middle of nowhere.
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Apologies if this has already been posted somewhere on the forum; I saw it just this morning.
This week Vanity Fair published a list of the 25 best romantic films of all time. Brokeback Mountain is fifth on the list:
It’s [a] testament to our increasing enlightenment that this movie about the secret love affair between two cowboys ranks 12th among the highest-grossing romantic dramas of all time. It’s a heartbreaker. The late Heath Ledger, in the role of Ennis Del Mar, underplays stoicism—which takes some doing. No one can know him because he hardly knows himself, except for one thing: he knows that he loves Jack Twist. Jake Gyllenhaal as Jack is less frightened by their love. He wears his heart, well, not on his sleeve but close at hand. (Ennis won’t wear his heart anywhere.) And he has a vision of the life they could have together. But Ennis can’t go there. So close, so far. Their two shirts in the closet—one over the other on a single hanger—embody everything, profoundly.
Inevitably, a few of the comments referenced BBM in terms of "political correctness".
http://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2013/09/25-best-love-story-movies
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Inevitably, a few of the comments referenced BBM in terms of "political correctness".
http://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2013/09/25-best-love-story-movies
That's code for expressing your own bigotry and/or homophobia in a "politically correct" way. :)
***
Thanks for posting that, I had not heard of it.
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http://www.nydailynews.com/blogs/pageviews/2013/09/annie-proulx-pens-libretto-for-%E2%80%98brokeback-mountain%E2%80%99-opera
Pulitzer Prize winner Annie Proulx is trying her hand at a new kind of writing. The "Shipping News" author has written the libretto for an upcoming opera adaptation of her book "Brokeback Mountain."
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Thanks for posting that, I had not heard of it.
Neither had I. Thanks for the link!
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Calling all Brokies... I have a question and cannot find a suitable open thread, although it has more than likely been mentioned at some point over the last...8 :o years...
Please take a a look:
http://www.yourprops.com/Costume-worn-by-the-stunt-original-movie-costume-No-Country-for-Old-Men-2007-YP26800.html
Josh Brolin's jacket in No Country for old men, the one he wears when he goes back out in the night with the water...
Is this the same as Ennis' coat?
If so, would it be the exact same coat Heath wore, or is it a commom style/brand in the USA? I was just wondering as I went to see the Heath/Ennis BBM coat in London and would like to know if someone else had worn it, if it was just "studio" property used in another film...
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Is this the same as Ennis' coat?
If so, would it be the exact same coat Heath wore, or is it a commom style/brand in the USA?
Carhartt is a very popular brand of work clothes in the rural west. I just came back from Colorado where I saw quite a few of those jackets.
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"Carhart" is a popular brand.
Completely different production company and costume designer for both films.
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I also think(not checked this out) that the lapel on E's coat is dark even on the lapel undersides.
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^^^
Thanks for the replies and apologies if the question was in the wrong thread...
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"Carhart" is a popular brand.
Completely different production company and costume designer for both films.
Just for clarification:
www.carhartt.com/
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I couldn't find a thread for just the book. Do anyone know if the book is available in stores, mainly Canadian (Ontario) stores because that's where I'm from. I want to read it, but I can't find it on line (to read free) and I don't like to order things through the Internet. I was hoping Chapters would have it. Any help would be good. :)
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Hello Willowey (Sara).
There is another thread you may want to try. It's called "Canadian, Eh" and our Canadian members occasionally post there. One of them may be able to help you. Just click the link below.
Canadian, Eh (http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=8635.0)
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I have it on my website. PM me your email address and I'll send it to you or you can go to my site, and copy it. It's just a little over 10,000 words.
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I went to the Scene by Scene board to find a fitting place to put this message, but couldn't find the right spot to put it. So I figured this would be the right place.
I read messages on here randomly all over stating that Jack has had experience before Ennis, but Ennis had not. I have watched the movie again last night looking for how we find out that Jack has been with other guys, but I couldn't find any. Is it so obvious I can't see it (it's happened to me before) or is it just a little line said in the film and I just missed it or is it just common sense? Any help? :-\
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I read messages on here randomly all over stating that Jack has had experience before Ennis, but Ennis had not. I have watched the movie again last night looking for how we find out that Jack has been with other guys, but I couldn't find any. Is it so obvious I can't see it (it's happened to me before) or is it just a little line said in the film and I just missed it or is it just common sense? Any help? :-\
There is a line in the short story that says Jack had "been riding more than bulls" which implies Jack had been having sex with other men during the 4 years they were separated. In the movie we see him hitting on the rodeo clown. As far as I can remember there is no real statement that Jack had other guys before Ennis, but with the way Jack gets what he wants (Ennis), it's assumed that he has some experience in that area.
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I think, with the film, a lot of the assumption that Jack was experienced is the way he checks Ennis out when they're waiting for Aguirre to show up at the office.
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I think, with the film, a lot of the assumption that Jack was experienced is the way he checks Ennis out when they're waiting for Aguirre to show up at the office.
Definitely, this is the look of someone non-verbally saying, "Hey cowboy, surely hope we get to be 'friends'." :)
(https://ultimatebrokebackforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1285.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fa586%2FDejeur%2Fbbm08_zps9470ce4b.jpg&hash=e0cdf157d06ef2736558d23cb0c4f38bf0b21a4b) (http://s1285.photobucket.com/user/Dejeur/media/bbm08_zps9470ce4b.jpg.html)
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I went to the Scene by Scene board to find a fitting place to put this message, but couldn't find the right spot to put it. So I figured this would be the right place.
I read messages on here randomly all over stating that Jack has had experience before Ennis, but Ennis had not. I have watched the movie again last night looking for how we find out that Jack has been with other guys, but I couldn't find any. Is it so obvious I can't see it (it's happened to me before) or is it just a little line said in the film and I just missed it or is it just common sense? Any help? :-\
This is an assumption some people make -- but we don't really know.
The hints in the story are that Jack has been up to the mountain the year before, but this is Ennis's first time. Annie Proulx, in interviews, says she spoke to an old man in Wyoming who told her they would send two young guys up together and it was thought to be common that they might have sex out of loneliness or horniness, whether or not they were gay.
So nobody knows what experience Jack had the prior year on the mountain, but his year of experience plus that he makes the first move with Ennis in the tent is a potential clue that maybe he had experience sexually.
-----------
In the movie, it isn't seen on screen but Ang Lee said in an interview on Charlie Rose that one of the guys is 20, the other 19. So that is a change from the story, where Annie Proulx wrote that neither of them was yet twenty years old.
But Ang Lee seems to have decided it would make more sense if Jack was 20 which might indicate he is more experienced than Ennis and possibly the lead in the sexual activities.
In the movie Ennis is portrayed as being much more conflicted about the sex on the mountain than in the story.
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Willowey (Sara), have you read the short story yet? If not, you can read it online as well. It might answer some of your questions. After watching the movie, reading the story answered some of my own questions regarding the Dozy Embrace scene, for instance.
http://nothing-rhymes-with-ianto.tumblr.com/post/8947836831/brokeback-mountain-by-annie-proulx (http://nothing-rhymes-with-ianto.tumblr.com/post/8947836831/brokeback-mountain-by-annie-proulx)
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You know when I first saw the movie, I think I saw Jack leaning up against that truck and looking at Ennis and never gave it a thought. Looking at the movie the other night, I totally thought he was checking him out.
I think it is just what you read into it!
Ennis is the shy one out of the two there is no doubt about that. I mean who would Ennis have had any type of sexual encounter with? Not a guy for sure, not Alma, she probably wouldn't have had sex before marriage and he would have been too shy to ask.
But Jack yea he looked more confident, if he hadn't been with boys, I am betting he had been with girls, probably both.
He made the moves on Ennis! He saw what he wanted and he went for it!
And I gotta say, I read the short story and didn't care for it. Is it okay to say that? :D I thought the movie was so much better! Didn't someone post the whole short story link on here at one point??
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One other hint is Ennis' line: "You may be a sinner, but I ain't yet had the opportunity".
To me, that means he's a virgin.
And Jack's response is just "Hmm", in a kinda interested/curious/amused way. I think that's more like the response from a guy who already had some experience. If Jack also were a virgin I think he would have answered in a different way.
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I think also that here, two hets would have done some boasting perhaps but as has been said, Jack was a little more worldly wise than Ennis and he was headed in a direction that he couldn't have boasted in right then - as he was never able to do for twenty years up until the fight by the lake.
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You know when I first saw the movie, I think I saw Jack leaning up against that truck and looking at Ennis and never gave it a thought. Looking at the movie the other night, I totally thought he was checking him out...
That was what hit me when I first saw the movie. And, not knowing anything about the storyline, I was actually unsettled by what seemed to me blatant checking out of hot Ennis, making me wonder why it was getting right down to it so soon in the movie. I needn't have worried... ;)
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Definitely, this is the look of someone non-verbally saying, "Hey cowboy, surely hope we get to be 'friends'." :)
(https://ultimatebrokebackforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1285.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fa586%2FDejeur%2Fbbm08_zps9470ce4b.jpg&hash=e0cdf157d06ef2736558d23cb0c4f38bf0b21a4b) (http://s1285.photobucket.com/user/Dejeur/media/bbm08_zps9470ce4b.jpg.html)
THAT gaze + the other comments here suggest strongly that Jack knew what he was doing.. V.
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Here's a sneak peek at one of the stories for Tuesday's Daily Sheet.
I'm posting it now, in case anyone would like to post an opinion at the site.
The 10 Best Adapted Screenplays Ever?
(https://ultimatebrokebackforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1123.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fl543%2Fjakeheathfan%2Fbrokeback-mountain-annie-proulx-larry-mcmurtry-diana-ossana_medium.jpg&hash=799a78dc7e5438e637337afbf960249d55d7dba7) |
The website TimesUnion.com has posted a list they've come up with, that comprises (in their opinion) the Top 10 best adapted screenplays.
Their list is topped by One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest. They opted to make the number three entry Brokeback Mountain.
They go on to ask readers to give their opinion on the list, or to add entries they felt should be on the list. One reader posted that Brokeback should NOT be on the list:
Brokeback Mountain’s directing was awful. The only way you knew that years passed in the movie was that Ledger’s kids were much older and the characters had gray hair. How about some lettering that states, “10 years later”. The only reason the movie makes the list is because of the acting and the taboo love story.
If you would like to see the complete list, and perhaps add your opinions, you can do so at the link below.
The 10 best adapted screenplays ever? (http://blog.timesunion.com/movies/the-10-best-adapted-screenplays-ever/11637/#18090101=0)
|
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I really don't feel like getting into about what that commentator said about Brokeback as a movie, I'm just going to let it lay for tonight and just let that be that person's opinion...::)
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Here's a sneak peek at one of the stories for Tuesday's Daily Sheet.
I'm posting it now, in case anyone would like to post an opinion at the site.
The 10 Best Adapted Screenplays Ever?
(https://ultimatebrokebackforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1123.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fl543%2Fjakeheathfan%2Fbrokeback-mountain-annie-proulx-larry-mcmurtry-diana-ossana_medium.jpg&hash=799a78dc7e5438e637337afbf960249d55d7dba7) |
The website TimesUnion.com has posted a list they've come up with, that comprises (in their opinion) the Top 10 best adapted screenplays.
Their list is topped by One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest. They opted to make the number three entry Brokeback Mountain.
They go on to ask readers to give their opinion on the list, or to add entries they felt should be on the list. One reader posted that Brokeback should NOT be on the list:
Brokeback Mountain’s directing was awful. The only way you knew that years passed in the movie was that Ledger’s kids were much older and the characters had gray hair. How about some lettering that states, “10 years later”. The only reason the movie makes the list is because of the acting and the taboo love story.
If you would like to see the complete list, and perhaps add your opinions, you can do so at the link below.
The 10 best adapted screenplays ever? (http://blog.timesunion.com/movies/the-10-best-adapted-screenplays-ever/11637/#18090101=0)
|
Well I was glad to see that is only a reply comment from someone who "doesn't get it" but the official ranking honors the screenplay. And really, what does Ang Lee have to fear from this Bozo's opinion? He already has the Oscar for Best Director!
It's true here on the forum many of us have lamented the makeup aging both Jake and Heath but there are always difficulties aging or youth-ing actors when there is a long time span. That is a rough spot that the other superb qualities actually transcended.
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"Brokeback Mountain’s directing was awful. The only way you knew that years passed in the movie was that Ledger’s kids were much older and the characters had gray hair. How about some lettering that states, “10 years later”. The only reason the movie makes the list is because of the acting and the taboo love story."
>:( >:(
... what does Ang Lee have to fear from this Bozo's opinion? He already has the Oscar for Best Director!
"Bozo " :D :D
This person obviously hasn't read the screenplay... or he or she doesn't like the movie. It happens.
I didn't need a "10 years later" add at all, and I'm sure none of us did. The only scene which confused me at first was the Dozy Embrace - It wasn't immediately clear to me that it was a flashback.
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Ang Lee has never badly directed anything in his life!
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Aren't these "armchair warriors" wonderful? Of course this person could have done a much better job than Ang Lee did. I bet he/she could have climbed Everest first if he/she had got off her/his backside and trundled up there. :) Shoulda, coulda, didn't. :D
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People who make comments like that, I simply ignore and dismiss now as complete *@(@*@.. not worth the time... V.
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He who can, does. He who can't, critiques. ;)
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http://www.outtraveler.com/destination-guide/madrid/2014/01/03/brokeback-mountain-opera-opening-madrid
In what seems like a no-brainer, the classic gay love story becomes an opera,
set to premiere at the Teatro Real.
-----------------
(I know this isn't news,
it was interesting to see the Opera mentioned at Advocate.com)
Maybe change the name of this section to:
The Film & Book & Opera
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It's good to see the word is spreading about the opera. ;D
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http://www.theguardian.com/music/2014/jan/29/brokeback-mountain-opera-teatro-real-madrid-review
Brokeback Mountain review
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Yep, read it yesterday, but didn't want to post it in the "Opera" thread...
They're not too enthousiastic, are they? :-\ Here's another one, also not too good:
http://www.out.com/entertainment/popnography/2014/01/29/flat-mountain-why-brokeback-mountain-opera-lacks-heat (http://www.out.com/entertainment/popnography/2014/01/29/flat-mountain-why-brokeback-mountain-opera-lacks-heat)
:(
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OBVIOUSLY: I write the below comment without having seen this producton and read very little about it.
From the Guardian review:
"[Annie] Proulx volunteered for the job of turning her own short story about the doomed relationship
between two Wyoming ranch hands, Jack and Ennis, into a libretto, and the opera is, she has said, much
closer to her original than Ang Lee's fine film, underlining the multiple layers of the young men's tragedy
and the circumscribed hopelessness of their situation."
The other review also has a similar sentiment. My perception is that Annie Proulx finds this idea a positive rather
than a negative. She really never cottoned to any of the romantic notions or sentimental ideas that audience members
wanted to associate with the film and story. There was no hope here and she didn't want people divining any. She wanted
the brutal hard truth and that was that. No revisioning what might have been for her. If the opera fulfills that notion it's certain
not to be warmly embraced by audiences. Yes, other operas and stories deal wirh tragedy, but you really have to have "some"
element of hope, some spark there, otherwise what is to attract anyone. Bleak and somber is not embraceable without it. Annie P.
seems to think the film is a happy tale compared to what she envisoned.
Also from that review:
Brokeback – the Musical it most emphatically isn't, though there were a few guilty moments on the first night when I wished it might have been.
Cue Shawn Kirchner et al...
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She really never cottoned to any of the romantic notions or sentimental ideas that audience members
wanted to associate with the film and story. There was no hope here and she didn't want people divining any. She wanted
the brutal hard truth and that was that. No revisioning what might have been for her.
Exactly. That's also why she detests the fan fiction stories, for instance:
"[The film] is the source of constant irritation in my private life. There are countless people out there who think the story is open range to explore their fantasies and to correct what they see as an unbearably disappointing story.
They constantly send [...] rewrites of the story to me, expecting me to reply with praise and applause for "fixing" the story. They certainly don't get the message that if you can't fix it you've got to stand it. Most of these "fix-it" tales have the character Ennis finding a husky boyfriend and living happily ever after, or discovering the character Jack is not really dead after all, or having the two men's children meet and marry, etc., etc."
(Wikipedia)
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http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/30/arts/music/lyrical-cowboys-in-love-on-stage.html?ref=arts&_r=2
Some quotes from the above review that was posted in the Gatherings thread:
They tie in with what I was hinting at in my post above.
It is a serious work, an impressive achievement. But it is a hard opera to love.
Mr. Wuorinen has written an intricate, vibrantly orchestrated and often brilliant score that conveys the oppressiveness of the forces that defeat these two men, whose lives we follow over 20 years, starting in 1963, when they take a summer job herding sheep on Brokeback Mountain. But the same qualities in Mr. Wuorinen’s music that can captivate listeners [...] too often weigh down the drama in this work.
Spark...some kind of hope...something to embrace...
To his credit, there is not one saccharine or melodramatic touch in the score.
Still, you yearn for the music to sing, to convey the moments of romantic bliss and
sensual pleasure that the uptight Ennis Del Mar and his more daring companion, Jack
Twist, experience.
A sentence at odds with itself. You can't give the composer credit for something with
which you wish was different. I don't know why the notion, that I really lay at the feet
of Miss Annie P., that you can't experience a hope, a wish, a longing for human sentiment
and find that is a false proposition in this story. Emptiness, which that ultimately is, doesn't
allow embracing. If that's what was wanted, they seem to have achieved it, at least in the
three reviews I have read.
Ms. Proulx made some interesting and pointed comments about the film version, directed by Ang Lee,
especially the somewhat romanticized qualities of the storytelling, the lush scenic depictions of the mountains
and the invented episodes, like the “trial girlfriend,” as she put it, for Ennis after his marriage breaks up.
I hate to tell A.P., but audiences who read the short story imbue it with the qualities she seems to dislike.
It's a very human quality to want to elevate the direst of situations with ideas of humor or romanticism or
some kind of uplift. The genius of her short story is that yes, she includes none of that, but in doing so it allows
the reader to do so and it's why we love these characters so much. Why she wants to keep that hidden has been a
mystery to me. If we do, we feel nothing. The Shipping News anyone?
--edited for spelling
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Very interesting post, Lyle. Thank you.
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Exactly. That's also why she detests the fan fiction stories, for instance:
"[The film] is the source of constant irritation in my private life. There are countless people out there who think the story is open range to explore their fantasies and to correct what they see as an unbearably disappointing story.
They constantly send [...] rewrites of the story to me, expecting me to reply with praise and applause for "fixing" the story. They certainly don't get the message that if you can't fix it you've got to stand it.(Wikipedia)
Yes, what she doesn't seem to get is what I wrote in the last post:
It's a very human quality to want to elevate the direst of situations with ideas of humor or romanticism or
some kind of uplift. The genius of her short story is that yes, she includes none of that, but in doing so it allows
the reader to do so and it's why we love these characters so much.
She doesn't get that people are not trying to FIX her story. What they're doing is making it bearable for "themselves."
Which means, in actuality, that audiences really did get your message!
The very fact she wrote it the way she did to allow so many to have these feelings is what I don't think "she" gets. I
have no doubt that audiences understand her intentions. But if audiences took the writing the way she seems to want
it--you can't fix it so shut up, then audiences would have read it or viewed it and left it there unmourned and forgotten.
(Talk about bleak.) I don't see why she views it as a bad thing that her very notions of bleakness and intractability brought
up the exact opposite emotions from her audience. Annie Proulx: That is not a bad thing!
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Very interesting post, Lyle. Thank you.
You're welcome! :)
I feel I may be overstepping the bounds a bit, because, obviously, I am writing about
a production I haven't seen!
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Me too! :D
Now, if I was Annie P., I'd be flattered to hear or see people were / are so touched by the story. Especially when people start writing their own 'version' of it. I haven't read a single fan fiction / slash story that is disrespectful to Ennis or Jack or to Annie's work (the BBM story), for that matter.
We wouldn't all be here if there wasn't much more to 'feel' than just Annie's words on the page - it's the story behind it, what could have been - in our imagination, yes, but it could have been. Nothing wrong with that IMO.
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She doesn't get that people are not trying to FIX her story. What they're doing is making it bearable for "themselves."
Which means, in actuality, that audiences really did get your message!
The very fact she wrote it the way she did to allow so many to have these feelings is what I don't think "she" gets. I
have no doubt that audiences understand her intentions. But if audiences took the writing the way she seems to want
it--you can't fix it so shut up, then audiences would have read it or viewed it and left it there unmourned and forgotten.
(Talk about bleak.) I don't see why she views it as a bad thing that her very notions of bleakness and intractability brought
up the exact opposite emotions from her audience. Annie Proulx: That is not a bad thing!
I agree with your points about the story, except for those people who actually send the author their fanfic -- that is never going to endear them to the author of the original work! And possibly one or two of them -- the type of person who would send their fanfic -- possibly they do want to fix it.
For so many of us I do have a question though -- what did compel me to read the story over and over? Even though I wanted to forget about it and NOT see the movie because the story had that effect on me -- then once I saw the movie, I went to see the movie over and over --
Even then I wondered, why? I know it isn't going to end any differently. What am I looking for, now that I have figured out what I think Ennis is mumbling and so forth? Why cry?
I still don't know, except with the story the language will get me hooked every time I pick it up, and the movie is so visually beautiful.
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You're welcome! :)
I feel I may be overstepping the bounds a bit, because, obviously, I am writing about
a production I haven't seen!
In general I am not crazy about modern opera music but if I get a chance some day I will see the opera.
I think it's great that Annie Proulx wrote the libretto for more than one reason -- it's good that she has now contributed to a dramatization of the story- because there is more than one way to do it, although Ang Lee and Ossana/McMurtry did such a great job.
And now she knows that the libretto, at least, is true to her own intentions.
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Even then I wondered, why? I know it isn't going to end any differently. What am I looking for, now that I have figured out what I think Ennis is mumbling and so forth? Why cry?
Catharsis and mimesis.
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Catharsis and mimesis.
Ok, that sounds good!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mimesis
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Hey also, there is a specific opera thread here:
Brokeback Mountain Opera at the Teatro Real in Madrid 28 Jan ***SPOILERS OK*** (http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=47360.0)
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Ok, that sounds good!
Well, okay, yes. But if invoking that, then specifically this and, of course, much, much, more.
Aristotle considered it important that there be a certain distance between the work of art on the one hand and life on the other; we draw knowledge and consolation from tragedies only because they do not happen to us. Without this distance, tragedy could not give rise to catharsis. However, it is equally important that the text causes the audience to identify with the characters and the events in the text, and unless this identification occurs, it does not touch us as an audience. Aristotle holds that it is through "simulated representation", mimesis, that we respond to the acting on the stage which is conveying to us what the characters feel, so that we may empathise with them in this way through the mimetic form of dramatic roleplay. It is the task of the dramatist to produce the tragic enactment in order to accomplish this empathy by means of what is taking place on stage.
I am not sure this occurs in the opera while it certainly does in the SS and also in the film.
Interesting. To me at least.
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I agree with your points about the story, except for those people who actually send the author their fanfic -- that is never going to endear them to the author of the original work!
:D
You're probably right, Ellen. Who knows what would happen if Ms. Proulx ever saw all the fanfic stories posted online... there are so many of them! Still, some are excellent and managed to move me to tears more than Annie's original story did.
I wonder how she feels about this forum, by the way, and other BBM pages or blogs. I doubt she has ever read any of them, but you never know :)
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:D
You're probably right, Ellen. Who knows what would happen if Ms. Proulx ever saw all the fanfic stories posted online... there are so many of them! Still, some are excellent and managed to move me to tears more than Annie's original story did.
I wonder how she feels about this forum, by the way, and other BBM pages or blogs. I doubt she has ever read any of them, but you never know :)
Oh, I think she has seen our forum and she has met a few of us -- she was kind of shocked when about 8 of us showed up at a low-key book fair in Casper Wyoming (in fall, 2006) when she was speaking on a panel there. I just had to speak to her directly and thank her for writing the story and she said " wait, did you say you came all the way from Texas?" ;D ;D
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Well, okay, yes. But if invoking that, then specifically this and, of course, much, much, more.
Aristotle considered it important that there be a certain distance between the work of art on the one hand and life on the other; we draw knowledge and consolation from tragedies only because they do not happen to us. Without this distance, tragedy could not give rise to catharsis. However, it is equally important that the text causes the audience to identify with the characters and the events in the text, and unless this identification occurs, it does not touch us as an audience. Aristotle holds that it is through "simulated representation", mimesis, that we respond to the acting on the stage which is conveying to us what the characters feel, so that we may empathise with them in this way through the mimetic form of dramatic roleplay. It is the task of the dramatist to produce the tragic enactment in order to accomplish this empathy by means of what is taking place on stage.
I am not sure this occurs in the opera while it certainly does in the SS and also in the film.
Interesting. To me at least.
Yes it is interesting and I appreciate the insight.
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When we first started the Daily Sheet back in 2006, one of our editors, Cactus Gal, contacted Annie Proulx through her agent, and Annie replied to our request to answer some profile questions. Here's the link to that archive:
http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=11455.msg363236#msg363236
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Yes it is interesting and I appreciate the insight.
Well, as usual, I am sure I am being way too "wonky" about this but "what's new"? ;)
Here is the element that may be missing from the opera:
Aristotle holds that it is through "simulated representation", mimesis, that we respond to the acting on the stage which is conveying to us what the characters feel, so that we may empathise with them in this way through the mimetic form of dramatic roleplay.
I think both the film and ,certainly, the SS achieve the above.
It will be interesting to hear the reaction of our "Brokie" friends attending the performance as to whether the opera does the same.
Of course in opera, or any form of musical theatre, there exists the additional element of lyric and music to help tell the story.
I am just not sure the opera allows for the appropriate level of audience empathy for the characters. We'll see.
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OK here is the link to The Daily Sheet where I wrote up the Book Fair event in Wyoming. The people in the group picture are a combination of our forum members and some from Bettermost. We are standing in the bed of Adam's truck (screen name E del Mar, I think) -- the collector truck that was the same as Ennis's model.
And we asked Annie as many questions as she would listen to, during the session and afterward at the book signing.
Don't worry about reading every word, we were quite breathless back then!
But the answer is yes, she knows about us, we are part of the reason she is kind of freaked out about the fans of her story! But she was very gracious and down to earth with us.
:)
http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=17094.msg552102#msg552102
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Well, as usual, I am sure I am being way too "wonky" about this but "what's new"? ;)
Here is the element that may be missing from the opera:
Aristotle holds that it is through "simulated representation", mimesis, that we respond to the acting on the stage which is conveying to us what the characters feel, so that we may empathise with them in this way through the mimetic form of dramatic roleplay.
I think both the film and ,certainly, the SS achieve the above.
It will be interesting to hear the reaction of our "Brokie" friends attending the performance as to whether the opera does the same.
Of course in opera, or any form of musical theatre, there exists the additional element of lyric and music to help tell the story.
I am just not sure the opera allows for the appropriate level of audience empathy for the characters. We'll see.
Gary probably you participated in our fantasies back in them earlier days, when we wondered what kinds of arias Alma might sing, and so forth. I do think there is a possibility of a good opera but it will be interesting to see if this one is it. ahem -- (good music would help.) As you say, we'll see.
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Thanks for the links, Ellen! I'll take a look.
Sonja
:)
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I reckon that with such a powerful soundtrack still ringing in my ears, I personally would find it extremely hard to connect any other music with our beloved story.
As for Proulx's prickliness on slash stories, I can well imagine her feeling the way she does when the stories are sent to her personally. Such stuff should remain within its own bounds - we know where it is and we love to delve to varying degrees and for tons of reasons.
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I reckon that with such a powerful soundtrack still ringing in my ears, I personally would find it extremely hard to connect any other music with our beloved story.
Yes.
And Ennis and Jack? I can't imagine anyone else but Heath and Jake.
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Hey also, there is a specific opera thread here:
Brokeback Mountain Opera at the Teatro Real in Madrid 28 Jan ***SPOILERS OK*** (http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=47360.0)
Yeah, well, sorry for not posting this in one of the Opera threads, but I read a Belgian review yesterday (which makes sense because a few Belgians are connected to the project), and it said something about the film I hadn't read anywhere else before - and it made me laugh. This:
"Zo groen en idyllisch de berglandschappen destijds op het witte doek waren (“Het leek wel de Sound of Music”)..."
... which compares the atmosphere of the book, and more or less the opera, to the atmosphere of the film. It translates as:
"At the time [of the film], the landscapes on the big screen were so green and idyllic - it looked like The Sound of Music"... :D :D
I'll remember that next time I watch it! :)
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Yeah, well, sorry for not posting this in one of the Opera threads, but I read a Belgian review yesterday (which makes sense because a few Belgians are connected to the project), and it said something about the film I hadn't read anywhere else before - and it made me laugh. This:
"Zo groen en idyllisch de berglandschappen destijds op het witte doek waren (“Het leek wel de Sound of Music”)..."
... which compares the atmosphere of the book, and more or less the opera, to the atmosphere of the film. It translates as:
"At the time [of the film], the landscapes on the big screen were so green and idyllic - it looked like The Sound of Music"... :D :D
I'll remember that next time I watch it! :)
:D
That's a reminder that some critics just criticize to be clever. -- Of course we are commenting without having seen the opera, but I'm willing to give it a chance to come into its own over time. It is meant to be a totally separate piece of work and it seems as though they have definitely achieved that!
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The other review also has a similar sentiment. My perception is that Annie Proulx finds this idea a positive rather
than a negative. She really never cottoned to any of the romantic notions or sentimental ideas that audience members
wanted to associate with the film and story. There was no hope here and she didn't want people divining any. She wanted
the brutal hard truth and that was that. No revisioning what might have been for her. If the opera fulfills that notion it's certain
not to be warmly embraced by audiences. Yes, other operas and stories deal wirh tragedy, but you really have to have "some"
element of hope, some spark there, otherwise what is to attract anyone. Bleak and somber is not embraceable without it. Annie P.
seems to think the film is a happy tale compared to what she envisoned.
As we all know, that's come up regularly in discussions, and IMO it's an illustration of one of the frustrating things about writing in particular; i.e., it's impossible to 'make rules' for your readers. In this case, it might not be a bad thing that viewers bypassed both Annie Proulx' expectations and the recurrent theme of BBM being mostly a parable about rural homophobia, since that might have ensured the story's lengevity. Didactic plays and movies tend not to age very well: it's not likely that any productions of McBird have been done over the last four decades. Even the film version of M*A*S*H hasn't aged very gracefully.
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When we first started the Daily Sheet back in 2006, one of our editors, Cactus Gal, contacted Annie Proulx through her agent, and Annie replied to our request to answer some profile questions. Here's the link to that archive:
http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=11455.msg363236#msg363236
That was a very interesting read. Thanks for the link, Ellen.
AP clearly says that she is "extremely fond" of Brokeback.
As it seems, she must sadly have changed her mind since then, since in several of the interviews she's given in connection with the opera she talks about how the movie has distorted and romantified her story. Or words to that effect. In those interviews she seems to think that the opera sets straight what the movie distorted.
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Sort of like P L Travers and Mary Poppins....
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I reckon that with such a powerful soundtrack still ringing in my ears, I personally would find it extremely hard to connect any other music with our beloved story.
As for Proulx's prickliness on slash stories, I can well imagine her feeling the way she does when the stories are sent to her personally. Such stuff should remain within its own bounds - we know where it is and we love to delve to varying degrees and for tons of reasons.
I agree, andy. But I wonder if AP really did truly love the great film. I hope so; how could she not?
kathy
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It begins to sound as though she didn't, kathy - at least, not in the way we do.
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My own opinion, I think that her initial reaction was a true one, she really did like the film.
However, I'm sure it's become a double-edged sword. She's had to deal with continued questions on Brokeback, a piece of work she wrote 17 years ago. She's written so much more since then, but it's all overshadowed by a movie based on a piece of work that is 17 years old. I'm sure she's very tired of it by now.
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Yes, that makes perfect sense. For her, it must be hard a lot of people (most people?) can't seem to get past "Brokeback Mountain".
However, it's the movie that introduced me to her work. I've now read all three of her "Wyoming Stories" story collections - and I very much doubt whether I had ever read them if it wasn't for BBM.
So Ms. Proulx - if you can't fix it... ;)
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I see that Chuck. Apart from the 17 years, it looks as though she's definitely gone through some kind of development within herself. I reckon in 17 years from now if I looked at one of my own stories I'd be rewriting like mad - not that I compare any of mine to hers, you understand.
I also reckon that getting the chance to write the libretto for the opera has enabled her to step into a territory that at the time of the movie release, would have been alien to her, or at least, unapproachable.
As Sonja says, for many of us, the movie was our main introduction to E&J, and first loves are always hard to supplant, right?
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I often wonder how many people approach her with movie memorabilia to sign.....it must be maddening at times, she had nothing to do with the movie, she was the short story's creator.
The times I've met her and got her autograph, it's always been her books, not the movie.
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Yes, that makes perfect sense. For her, it must be hard a lot of people (most people?) can't seem to get past "Brokeback Mountain".
MOST people couldn't care less about Brokeback. Those affected are mostly here and compared to the numbers that saw the film, we're a drop in the universal bucket. My friends and family have gotten used to me being infected, but it really doesn't interest them. Anytime I say something about Brokeback Mountain to a stranger they look at me like I'm speaking Martian.
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Yeah, we do tend to think we're in the majority, don't we?
My friends congratulate me if I get through an evening without mentioning it. ;D
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I've never come across anyone infected by the full Brokie fever, but I have met the occasional very positive reaction...
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My friends congratulate me if I get through an evening without mentioning it. ;D
LOL Andy!! ;D ;D
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... For her, it must be hard a lot of people (most people?) can't seem to get past "Brokeback Mountain".
I should've said "most people online ". Sorry. And not just on this forum, but the internet in general. Whenever I read or watch an interview with Annie P., BBM gets mentioned - always. In every review, every bio...
Although I must admit - I'm aware us Brokies are a special bunch :D
I've never come across anyone infected by the full Brokie fever, but I have met the occasional very positive reaction...
Yes, same here. Most of my friends know I love it and why - what the movie means to me. I can never fully explain of course, that's just impossible, but they never make fun of it.
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I'm of the opinion that AP's reaction to the movie soured in the wake of the ongoing irritation of fanfic attempting to "fix" the unbearable pain of her ending, against her original intentions plus the time consuming need to legally defend her copyright. I can totally understand how annoying this was.
Perhaps her involvement in the opera by writing the libretto is her way of "reclaiming" her work in the wake of the attention the movie got? She's made several remarks in recent interviews which make it clear that she expanded and clarified areas not fully addressed in the original story and which the "movie wasn't interested in exploring".....an implied criticism I think. If you compare this attitude with what she writes in "Story To Screenplay" about her feelings about the movie you can definitely see a change in her thinking.
Maybe now she feels like she had the last word on BBM.
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I should've said "most people online ". Sorry. And not just on this forum, but the internet in general. Whenever I read or watch an interview with Annie P., BBM gets mentioned - always. In every review, every bio...
Although I must admit - I'm aware us Brokies are a special bunch :D
:)
I am thinking of the people she meets in person at book signings -- but when I went to see her in Texas a couple years ago there were ACTUALLY people there who were Proulx fans because of The Shipping News. An older work and just as many questions asked about it!
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I'm of the opinion that AP's reaction to the movie soured in the wake of the ongoing irritation of fanfic attempting to "fix" the unbearable pain of her ending, against her original intentions plus the time consuming need to legally defend her copyright. I can totally understand how annoying this was.
Perhaps her involvement in the opera by writing the libretto is her way of "reclaiming" her work in the wake of the attention the movie got? She's made several remarks in recent interviews which make it clear that she expanded and clarified areas not fully addressed in the original story and which the "movie wasn't interested in exploring".....an implied criticism I think. If you compare this attitude with what she writes in "Story To Screenplay" about her feelings about the movie you can definitely see a change in her thinking.
Maybe now she feels like she had the last word on BBM.
I agree malachite --
And think about it -- anybody who writes in her no-nonsense, un-sentimental style is not likely to be warm and squishy all the time -- I wouldn't want her to be that way. When I go to see her it's because I'm in awe of her achievement and I want to know what makes her tick.
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Maybe now she feels like she had the last word on BBM.
As long as there are Brokies, there will never be a last word on BBM.
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Hehehehehe
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If you compare this attitude with what she writes in "Story To Screenplay" about her feelings about the movie you can definitely see a change in her thinking.
Maybe now she feels like she had the last word on BBM.
That's exactly what I thought as well!
As long as there are Brokies, there will never be a last word on BBM.
;D
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I agree malachite --
And think about it -- anybody who writes in her no-nonsense, un-sentimental style is not likely to be warm and squishy all the time -- I wouldn't want her to be that way. When I go to see her it's because I'm in awe of her achievement and I want to know what makes her tick.
Exactly. I think we all want to know that. I'm very sure though that, like BBM, she's so multi-layered that it'll always be up for debate. I like that though. It's what makes the whole thing so enduringly interesting. ;)
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Hi,
It's been a while since I was on the site. I am (very tentatively) planning a trip to some of the film locations in Alberta, most likely late this year or early 2015. I read about a fire that destroyed part of some structures in Beiseker. Does anyone know if the Twist ranch buildings were burned down, or are they demolished ? I don't want to plan the trip and get to that spot and find nothing there !!
Would appreciate it if anyone knows anything about this site.
Take care,
Charles.
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Hi Charles,
I was in Alberta this past summer to see many film locations. The fire in Beiseker was near, but had no impact on, the Twist ranch.
Here's a link to the trip on BetterMost (I think you have to register to see it, however):
http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php/topic,50705.0/all.html
Cheers,
Paul
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Hi Charles,
I, too, was in Alberta last summer (what a coincidence! :D), and I can highly recommend the trip if you have a chance to do it.
The Twist ranch is one of my favourite BBM sites, and we were happy to see it still standing.
If you check out the link Paul posted, you'll get more info about what sites are still there. (most of them are)
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Someone posted this video on YouTube yesterday. It hasn't got anything to do with Brokeback - or has it?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cd0JC9wpq8I (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cd0JC9wpq8I)
If they had used the BBM music, it would've been perfect!
:)
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Thanks for the link, Bjd. It's a shame there will always be someone on utube who has to say something like I hope nothing happened up there a la Brokeback.
They sure looked like they would/could/might have had somethin' goin' on there, not to mention the scenery.
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It's a shame there will always be someone on utube who has to say something like I hope nothing happened up there a la Brokeback.
I'm sure it was a joke - I hope :-\
I'm one of those people who always reads the comments - always. Sometimes I know I really shouldn't, cos people can be rude, but sometimes it can be lots of fun as well.
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^^^
If they did do the "deed" up there in the mountains....what better place could there be for doing it ? It would be almost like them play homage to Ennis and Jack ! :)
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Thanks for the link, Bjd. It's a shame there will always be someone on utube who has to say something like I hope nothing happened up there a la Brokeback.
They sure looked like they would/could/might have had somethin' goin' on there, not to mention the scenery.
Yeah.. if you looked at his other vids, it's likely we can conclude it was not named inappropriately. Nice couple. V.
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http://www.advocate.com/arts-entertainment/film/2014/06/23/top-175-essential-films-all-time-lgbt-viewers
Still at Number 1
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^^^^^
And so it should be, right?
A review of Rupert Graves's performance in Maurice uses a word I'd never come across before; callipygian. Even after looking it up I'm not sure I fully understand it. Maybe they're referring to the scene when Scudder is dressing after their night in a hotel and in the process of doing his underwear up his willy pops out as if reluctant to be contained. ;) http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/callipygian
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But we did see his "shapely buttocks", as far as I remember.....
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I can remember them while running around the pond in A Room With A View but Maurice...? I'm sure you're right, in which case, the dictionary definition makes sense. :D
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http://www.advocate.com/arts-entertainment/film/2014/06/23/top-175-essential-films-all-time-lgbt-viewers
Still at Number 1
"What is the most essential movie ever for LGBT viewers? There can be only one." ;D
Indeed. How wonderful! :)
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"What is the most essential movie ever for LGBT viewers? There can be only one." ;D
Indeed. How wonderful! :)
I am slightly curious what would actually be the #1 most essential movie ever for lesbians?
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Oh man, look what they wrote:
"The chemistry between the late Heath Ledger’s restrained, tortured Ennis Del Mar and Jake Gyllenhaal’s sensitive and tender Jack Twist..."
That's just poetry :-*
Thanks lislis, for posting the link. Reading that review for Brokeback made me feel good.
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^^^
It really makes you wonder...if this film is held in such high esteem by the ordinary public , certain newspapers....film magazines .....and a lot of film making producers ...directors etc......... and so many others who sing it's praises and say it's one of the "most memorable films" ever made........why the hell didn't it win the Academy Award for BEST FILM ??
I don't get it :-\
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Because you never know who lurks here... any new Brokies perhaps? :)
Heath, Jake, Michelle and Anne on 'Oprah'. It's been on YouTube for years, but only in parts and in rather poor quality.
Here's the full interview, in much better quality, and in one piece. Oh, and with Spanish subtitles ;)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vI3HqS5hWS0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vI3HqS5hWS0)
Not Oprah's finest interview ever (those questions... ::) ), but legendary because... well, it's the four of them :-*
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Time to Vote!
Librarian of Congress James H. Billington seeks nominations for the National Film Registry. Public nominations play a key role when the Librarian of Congress and Film Board are considering their final selections. To be eligible for the Registry, a film must be at least 10 years old and be “culturally, historically, or aesthetically significant.”
For consideration, please forward recommendations (limit 50 titles per year) via email to: dross@loc.gov . Please include the date of the film nominated (i.e. 2005) , and number your recommendations:
(i.e. 1. Brokeback Mountain), please; alphabetizing would be nice, too. No need to include justifications for your nominations unless the films are not well known (not listed in IMDb, for example). And if you would, please tell us how you learned of the Registry.
http://www.loc.gov/film/vote.html
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A few years ago, someone - I think it was Stan (AZ.bbm) - posted a map with all the Brokeback geographical references on it, including the real "years on years" places. Any idea how I can see it, or something similar?
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The Brokeback Mountain Opera
I did a quick Google search and didn't find a DVD/Blu-ray/VHS?
Home Video release of the Opera, anyone know if/when it'll
be released?
(due to a slow Internet connection, Streaming isn't an option for me)
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I've been looking for it as well and, like you, couldn't find it - not even on eBay.
I think I once read they only planned to release a DVD if the opera was successful enough. To be honest, I don't know how successful it's been in Spain. I do know that the opera will also be performed in Germany (Aachen) in December and January.
So maybe after that a DVD will be released? Fingers crossed!
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Hi, y'all! A newbie here....not new to discussion boards but just recently watched BBM for the first time. And I have been left simultaneously gobsmacked and obsessed. No movie except maybe (MAYBE) Schindler's List has rocked my world like BBM has....so here I am on this forum so I don't feel quite so alone in my obsession. :) Jake and Heath were both phenomenal (and let's be real....they were hot too).
When it was first released I was not mature enough to have appreciated it as I do now, nor would it have made as profound an impact. After watching the movie I ordered the SS along with the screenplay....I'm trying to pace myself because I'm also drowning in schoolwork (back to the grind to become a nurse practitioner) and want to pass my classes.
Just been reading all the threads (trying not to dig up old ones, LOL) and immersing myself.
Thanks for letting me come play in the sandbox! :)
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Hello ElvishGeek, and welcome to the forum!!!
My name is Chuck (USA/ New Jersey) and I'm one of the moderators who helps run the place.
It's always great to see new members find us and join up!
I can see from your first post that you're searching around the forum! Good! I'm going to supply you with a few links that you may find helpful. You may have already been in a few threads in these sections, but you may find some new topics you want to post in. If you see that a topic is "old", please don't feel that you shouldn't post. You never know what conversation would be started because you posted.
The Film & Book (http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php?board=1.0)
In this section you can find threads to compare the movie to the short story (Film Vs. Book), your favorite quote from the movie or book, and general discussion of Brokeback.
The Impact on Society & Ourselves (http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php?board=3.0[/url)
In this section you can find threads about reactions of the audience, how the movie affected you, and other topics.
Scene-By-Scene (http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php?board=34.0)
Here you will find threads that talk about various scenes from the movie.
Elements & Themes (http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php?board=61.0)
This is where you'll find threads that talk about Jack, Ennis, their relationship, the women of Brokeback, and other elements.
There are other sections as well where you'll find chat threads (The Diner, Le Bar Slash) fan fiction discussion, TV, movies, music, and countless other threads.
Have fun exploring!
If you want to tell us a bit about yourself on a personal level, we have a thread called "New Members Introduce Yourself", and you can click the link to go there.
New Members -- Introduce Yourselves Here (http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=8797.0)
It's not required, so no pressure if you don't want to share!
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Just been reading all the threads (trying not to dig up old ones, LOL) and immersing myself.
Hi ElvishGeek!
Please feel free to dig up old threads - when I first joined here two years ago, diggin' up was all I did! ;D
I've read the entire SNIT (= Second Night in the Tent) thread, for instance... all 260 pages! Yes, I know - I'm insane :D
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Hi ElvishGeek!
Please feel free to dig up old threads - when I first joined here two years ago, diggin' up was all I did! ;D
I've read the entire SNIT (= Second Night in the Tent) thread, for instance... all 260 pages! Yes, I know - I'm insane :D
Thanks so much for the warm welcome. :-*
I think SNIT is one of my favorite scenes (though the whole movie essentially one favorite scene after another, in all honesty)......SO MUCH tenderness there. I think I'll go off and check out the FNIT and SNIT threads to see what everyone else thinks.
(Incidentally, I spend some time lurking on other threads and wondering what FNIT and SNIT meant....it took a few minutes but eventually figured it out.)
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Hi ElvishGeek,
I'm suelyblu (Sue) .....and I'm from England.
I have problems with coming to terms with the descriptions of Ennis and Jack in the SS (short story)
and the two gorgeous men who played them in the film. I still have one question about that that would probably get me shot down in flames.....so I keep it to my self ;)
Hope you have a great time digging around in old threads.....and you find the answers to questions that you have struggled and queried over and that they probably match some of your own conclusions you have come to.
Don't be a stranger on all the other threads. If you feel something......let it out !!! :D
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... wondering what FNIT and SNIT meant....
I know what you mean ;D
If you feel something......let it out !!! :D
I second that!
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I still have one question about that that would probably get me shot down in flames.....
*curious*
*even more curious*
*utterly curious*
;D
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Sue, now I need to know your question!!! Well, how about a PM if you can't say it in public! :D
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2 PMs then ;D
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Three.
(And welcome ElvishGeek!)
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I have problems with coming to terms with the descriptions of Ennis and Jack in the SS (short story)
and the two gorgeous men who played them in the film. I still have one question about that that would probably get me shot down in flames.....so I keep it to my self ;)
Sue,
My instructors at school are always saying.....if you have a question you should ask, because I guarantee someone else has the same question!
I will tend to agree with you about the hot men. Outside BBM Heath (God rest his sweet soul) would not be my type outside the Australian accent, which is hawt even when you're telling me I've got my shirt tucked into my underwear. But in the movie....wipe the drool off my chin, please. Throw me up against the wall and do what you please.
Jake is still smoking. Hubba hubba.
EG
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Jake is still smoking. Hubba hubba.
:D :D
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I think I would like to know what Sue's question is too...? Pretty please xxx
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Hi Rosa! :-*
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Rosa from Madrid! Hello again!
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One day.....till then ...... :-X
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What is it that you have on your mind, Sue? :D
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One day.....till then ...... :-X
Today? *hopeful*
Just kidding, Sue ;) :-*
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Suely, you got everyone thinking! LOL
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Suely, you got everyone thinking! LOL
Sorry....didn't mean to.
Just something that had me thinking from the first moment I saw the film.
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Sorry....didn't mean to.
Just something that had me thinking from the first moment I saw the film.
AND??.......
:D
You're just making it worse!
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If you lived a bit nearer I'd go and bang on your door and demand an answer! :D
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Sue, Andy once said to me, after I had written a difficult post on a touchy subject (copied from another thread):
Sonja, I don't think anyone should never be able to speak an opinion on here. I respect your hesitation but if we can't speak here, where can we?
Andy's right, you know. And I'm being serious.
Just something that had me thinking from the first moment I saw the film.
Is it an Ennis / Jack thing or a Heath / Jake thing? At least give us something... ;)
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Well, IMO, I think it is both.
Kathy
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So, I have just popped back here to see if Sue had fielded her thoughts... but no!
Hi BJD and Cally - sorry I have been neglecting you all and this place... but BBM is always beating in my heart!
I watched the film a couple of weeks ago and STILL saw new things... amazing!
x
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Hi there, Rosa!
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http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/gallery/100-greatest-films-all-time-714192
Brokeback Mountain
Ang Lee won best director, but in one of the biggest Oscar upsets in recent memory...
I was a little surprised to see Brokeback Mountain in this list.
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te-dum-te-dum I've got a little list te-dum-te-dum
(Mikado, right?) :)
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I was a little surprised to see Brokeback Mountain in this list.
OK. It starts with no. 1. It should've started with no. 100 ;D
So where's Brokeback then? *starts clicking*...
Edit: Found it! ..."Ang Lee won best director, but in one of the biggest Oscar upsets in recent memory, Brokeback lost best picture to … see if you can remember." :)
P.S. 'The Dark Knight' at no. 57: ..."Ledger took the Joker very seriously, even applying his own face paint before each shot."
Lost of movies missing in this list, though. And 'The Breakfast Club' at no. 27? Seriously?
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Your right, Sonja. One man's list is another's pile of ****. ;D
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I am going to post about this, and re-post this one, in the Awards Aftermath thread!
__________________
I was a little surprised to see Brokeback Mountain in this list.
I was a little surprised to see a lot of these films on the list.
Especially since it says this:
Who better to judge the best movies of all time than the people who make them? Studio chiefs, Oscar winners and TV royalty all were surveyed as THR publishes its first definitive entertainment-industry ranking of cinema's most superlative.
This is the only criteria? And TV royalty?
By the way, this is from last June and we just discovered it? We're all slipping here!
When it comes to movie lists in the age of the internet I am more and more dubious of any of them.
There's a whole lot of films on this list I wouldn't give a plug nickel for and would never choose to see
again.
And once again, it's a very male centric list of films with lots of gangsters, boxing, war,
violence, hero worship and special effects/sci-fi spread throughout. As one can see by
this statement accompanying the placement of Chinatown:
This is the first of three Nicholson films to make the 100. But he's beaten by Robert Duvall and Robert De Niro (both with four) and by Marlon Brando and Harrison Ford (with five apiece).
No such writing for the actresses, Even the most nominated woman ever is listed in only one
film and it's a minor supporting role at that, The Deer Hunter. (And if that's one of the 100
best films ever, well...)
Where's Representatives of all those wonderful pictures labeled "women's pictures" and represented by
the great ladies of Hollywood like Garbo, Crawford, Colbert and even Elizabeth Taylor? (No Virginia
Woolf?)
In several instances the age of the respondent's is mentioned, which leads me to believe someone
compiled a lot of statistical info while compiling it. Maybe that explains why that good but highly
overrated film The Graduate, that has been on these kinds of lists for decades is suddenly not on it
and maybe why The Breakfast Club is!
Notice the words written for Citizen Kane: Critics have hailed this for decades as "the greatest
American movie ever made," making it an all-too-easy pick for anyone's greatest-movie list. But not all
moviegoers are enthralled with the story of Charles Foster Kane and his long-lost sled. Among poll
respondents in their 20s, for instance, it was only the 26th-favorite film. Among the under-20s, it was
53rd. For those over 60, though, it was No. 1 or 2.
Have you ever noticed through the years when talking about favorite films that people we all actually
talk to about this subject never/rarely mention Citizen Kane at all, but you always find it on lists?
I just have to say that I have never seen Gladiator on any list of this type. It's a crowd pleasing film, but
it certainly isn't one of the best films ever. (Over Kubrick's Spartacus as a comparison?) It's badly shot
in several scenes with film flubs galore and directed in a rather pedestrian manner. Curious.
And a distinct lack of many genres of films--film noir, westerns, silents, adult romances for starters.
In any case, the actual numerical placement of the films on these types of best lists is irrelevant to me,
just being ON the list is what I consider to be the most important thing, if anything.
So, BBM is ON the list. If you think about it, that's pretty remarkable.
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Hypothetical question :
As the years rolled by and it got to the 90's and the 2000's ....and things got a little bit more accepting of gay people.....do you think Ennis would have ever have told his daughters or any friends he had made..... about Jack and what he had meant to him ? NOT that he was gay ...because we know he wasn't !
Would he have mentioned the love of his life on his death bed even if his daughters were there by his side ?
I hate to think of Ennis going through life never mentioning Jack.....and going to his death....never having Jack's name on his lips to the end.
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Yes hypothetical as it is fiction. ::)
However I am the same age as Ennis. I lived in a big city but would never have come out generally at the age of 19. I had gone to psychiatrists and my sister and mother and one friend knew by the time I was 21. I did not find the gay scene nor stop trying to be straight until I was over 27. As a teacher, I had to be careful even then.
I have an acquaintance 2 years older than me. When I first met him, I thought you are gay and many of the women have asked me if he is gay. Once we were on a camp. He and I were the only men and he insisted on single rooms. I was happy as I am told he is a bad snorer. The lady organising said.
'The men can have the 2 queen bed rooms.' He giggled and said "I'm not a queen" I nearly decked him, I was so angry. I move from being angry with him in this day and age to feeling sorry for him.
I don't announce I am gay but if the conversation turns that way I come out and I know how the grapevine works so believe all my friends are aware even though I have no open gay friends here where I live.
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^^^
I say " Hypothetical".... more so because we don't know how long Ennis lived or didn't after Jacks death.
Yes....I know it's fiction !! I'm not that far gone.........yet !!!!!!!!!!! :D
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:D :D :D
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For those who might have missed this in the past, a short (5 minute) documentary about the special effects used in making BBM.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPw5plmkd6Q
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Hypothetical question :
As the years rolled by and it got to the 90's and the 2000's ....and things got a little bit more accepting of gay people.....do you think Ennis would have ever have told his daughters or any friends he had made..... about Jack and what he had meant to him ? NOT that he was gay ...because we know he wasn't !
Would he have mentioned the love of his life on his death bed even if his daughters were there by his side ?
I hate to think of Ennis going through life never mentioning Jack.....and going to his death....never having Jack's name on his lips to the end.
I suspect he might have done, Sue. Indeed, that topic has been raised quite a few times in various slash stories, none of which I could name right now.
In fact, wasn't it one of the story's criticisms that even in the timeline of BBM, the two boys could have migrated elsewhere and been free of the small town prejudice that effected Ennis' thinking so much? But, of course, had they done what many others probably did do, we wouldn't have had the story.
As to the girls coming to know, I reckon Alma's intuition may well have precipitated some outpouring eventually. Of course, with fiction we are all able to write our very own sequel, are we not - in fact, the source of many a slash story? My little story entitled Intervention did exactly that. I really enjoyed putting words into everyone's mouth and changing the course of history. ;D
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I know it's been beaten to death in other threads so don't intend to start any fires here :D but I do think Jr. knew about Ennis. While sexuality was not as openly discussed as it is now (and there were surely no GSA groups in high schools like there are now), a teenager in the late 70s/early 80s would have had some notion of what 'gay' meant'.
In the story that I keep in my head, Ennis tells Jr. about Jack and all they shared. I have to believe that; I've tried the alternative and it's just too devastating.
*edited to remove content -
CellarDweller115*
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Unless there was some reason to, I don't think he would have.
Where I worked and such in the 80's and 90's there were lots of older gay men
and they would still talk in "gay code", you know...hinting at things and such, and
would never have made a statement like protesting against something or the like.
Just look at someone like Liberace, even. Jay Leno opened for him on some occasions
and on his talk show said Liberace would always deny he was gay. It is easier to follow
routine and custom you're familiar with and not rock the boat. Old habits are not easily
broken. I believe a quote from Mark Twain goes something like this: "Habits are not
something to be flung out the window and discarded, but, rather, coaxed gently down
the stairs, one step at a time."
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I like that saying Lyle and you are probably right, but the hopeless romantic in me thinks that Alma Jr. knew and she was fine with it. I like to think she knew, cried and then said "Daddy have I got a fella for you".
Ennis would be saying "me and my big mouth" :D
Maybe I should start writing slash!
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How many times on talk shows like Oprah, Dr. Phil and the like have there
been stories about things going on in families where people always say
"I never knew that."
If Alma, Jr. did know or suspect or have a feeling, she wouldn't say anything.
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Maybe I should start writing slash!
I've toyed around with the idea myself....just a little here or there to start out.
I'm just such a perfectionist I don't want to write something and then not like it.....and we all know how many times AP revised the original story before it became the story/movie that has punched all of us here in the gut. But it consumes so much space in my head that it's going to have to get out eventually.
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How many times on talk shows like Oprah, Dr. Phil and the like have there
been stories about things going on in families where people always say
"I never knew that."
If Alma, Jr. did know or suspect or have a feeling, she wouldn't say anything.
I agree that she'd have kept quiet - at least to other family members - if she did know/suspect. It just kills my heart to think that Ennis would go through his entire life never mentioning this love of his to anyone else. If there were anyone who knew intuitively, I think it would have been Junior. She strikes me as mature enough to be able to handle it as well as understand that it's not public knowledge. Would she have approached him about it outright? I don't know. My heart wants to think that whether he told her, she asked him, or she figured it out on her own and he told her later anyway, she and he would have at some point talked about it and she'd have known about her dad's soulmate. Otherwise, it will tear my heart to pieces more than it already is.
To think that people went years, decades even, hiding their true selves and their true loves.....I know it happened and still does, but it's so heartbreaking.
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I think she may have suspected, heck Jack's Mother probably suspected. But no I don't think she would have said anything first, but if Ennis had confided in her, she would have kept their secret.
Unless of course Ennis had "come out". I mean what did he have to lose at that point, he probably had regrets (we know he did) so be true to yourself Ennis and do Jack proud.
Okay am I writing Slash now? :D
The only saving grace for me at the end of that movie was Ennis and Alma Jr., I felt like "he still has her" she will keep him going. It is a special bond between Daddy and daughter.
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It's my experience that people just don't/didn't think that much about this, so it
never occurs/occurred to them. It's just not in their consciousness. In the book
Coming Out Under Fire, a history about gays and lesbians in World War II, there are
countless stories told by military men of doing things right in front o others that just
ha no clue as to what was going on.
I mean, there are countless clues and facts to people in Hollywood and the entertainment
business right now as to who is gay and unless some people are hit over the head with it
they just are clue-less.
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I mean, there are countless clues and facts to people in Hollywood and the entertainment
business right now as to who is gay and unless some people are hit over the head with it
they just are clue-less.
Well we aren't talking about Tom Cruise, John Travolta, or whoever else the rumour mill is speculating about. We are talking about a Father and Daughter.
A member of your immediate family. Alma suspected, we know that.....tying a note to his rod! As I said I think Jack's Mom suspected. Maybe they don't think about the details, maybe they just think "something" is going on, but they aren't sure what. Funny feelings! :D
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I think she may have suspected, heck Jack's Mother probably suspected. But no I don't think she would have said anything first, but if Ennis had confided in her, she would have kept their secret.
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I feel for real that Jack's mom knew her son was gay, the way Jack used to talk all the while about how " He and Ennis Del Mar was going to come and lick the place into shape". I think she put two and two together.
Also the knowing and understanding look in her eyes when she gave Ennis the shirts.
I believe Ennis knew she had figured it out too. Yep......she knew alright and it was almost like he didn't really mind.
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I feel for real that Jack's mom knew her son was gay, the way Jack used to talk all the while about how " He and Ennis Del Mar was going to come and lick the place into shape". I think she put two and two together.
Also the knowing and understanding look in her eyes when she gave Ennis the shirts.
I believe Ennis knew she had figured it out too. Yep......she knew alright.
Abso-friggin-lutely, she knew. Mothers just know. I also agree with you that Ennis knew that she knew.
In the movie, Jack's parents remind me almost hand-in-glove of my grandparents, also rural poor, also parents of a gay son (my dad's youngest brother), born close to the same time as Jack would have been. There was never a coming-out announcement, they just knew. Gramps was never abusive to toward my uncle about his sexuality, though he was generally abusive to all the kids and Grandma because he was just a mean old jackass back then, by all accounts. Grandma, like a lot of people in her generation, didn't really get too worked up about something she couldn't change...and she loved her son no matter what. She knew about my uncle, probably well before everyone else did.
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I feel for real that Jack's mom knew her son was gay, the way Jack used to talk all the while about how " He and Ennis Del Mar was going to come and lick the place into shape". I think she put two and two together.
Also the knowing and understanding look in her eyes when she gave Ennis the shirts.
I believe Ennis knew she had figured it out too. Yep......she knew alright and it was almost like he didn't really mind.
Absolutely. I've seen this very scene too many times. I've seen this look myself. She knew... and I am convinced that Jr. knew but maybe never heard it from her dad. V.
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...and I am convinced that Jr. knew but maybe never heard it from her dad.
I was a teenager in the 70s and while I knew about homosexuality, it would never have occurred to me that a married man with kids might be gay. You guys here who know or have known closeted married men might assume that a girl like Junior could just figure it out on her own but believe me, someone else would have had to drop some big fat hints for her to even contemplate the possibility that her father was gay.
For the past few years I've fantasized about being stuck in a stalled elevator with Ang Lee so I could ask him dozens of questions, like "So did you talk to Kate Mara about whether Junior knew?" and "In the second night in the tent -- by the way, did you know that we refer to it as SNIT? -- did Ennis say 'Sorry'?" and "That shirt scene: 'I love you' -- yes or no?"
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And here lies the crux between what we want to be the case, and what is more likely. How fabulous that in fiction one can project one's own gap-fillers. :)
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Abso-friggin-lutely, she knew. Mothers just know. I also agree with you that Ennis knew that she knew.
I know stories from many guys whose parents were absolutely dumbfounded,
when the guys thought for sure they must've known. Mine included. It's only
obvious on hindsight. In this story, we know, so we want to think they do,
too, but do they?
Likely not at that time.
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And here lies the crux between what we want to be the case, and what is more likely. How fabulous that in fiction one can project one's own gap-fillers. :)
And of course you are right!
I can't tell you the times my husband (or another family member) have interpreted a movie or a book (or even TV show) ending differently. We bring a bit of ourselves to these stories and I think the producers/writers whoever are very happy with that.
Did Jack's Mother know the truth, I say yes (based on what I saw) someone else says no, there really is no correct answer! :D
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I was a teenager in the 70s and while I knew about homosexuality, it would never have occurred to me that a married man with kids might be gay.
How many times over the years have I heard someone say a celebrity is gay
and people say, "I don't believe it. he's married for gosh sakes."
Like I've said before, some ladies never ever would believe that Liberace was gay.
Look at all the women Dr. Phil has had on who believe internet scammers are in
love with them.
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I know stories from many guys whose parents were absolutely dumbfounded,
when the guys thought for sure they must've known. Mine included. It's only
obvious on hindsight. In this story, we know, so we want to think they do,
too, but do they?
Likely not at that time.
You know, I work with women all the time who are pregnant and swear up and down they didn't know they were. Even with ALL the classic signs, and even small women who really have nowhere to hide a growing belly.
You're right, it's possible to not see what's right in front of you when you really don't want to see it (for whatever reason). Denial is powerful.
That said, my grandma knew, even though my uncle dated girls here and there. It's anecdotal for sure but I have a hard time believing she's the only mother in tune enough with her gay son to know he's gay. This is not to discount others' different experiences.
I do still believe that Jack's mama had some inkling, at least the way Roberta Maxwell played her.
Did she know from the time Jack was young, did she figure it out over time, or did she figure it out once Jack talked about Ennis?
That's what's less clear to me.
For what it's worth.
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How many times over the years have I heard someone say a celebrity is gay
and people say, "I don't believe it. he's married for gosh sakes."
I know better now, but when you're a teenager (or at least, when I was back in the 70s) you take a lot of things at face value. I'm just saying that Alma, Jr at that time and in that place would not have known unless her mother had clued her in.
Anyway, here's how clueless I was: when I was 15 I was smitten with Paul Lynde! (I was hospitalized for 2 weeks and watched Hollywood Squares every day.) I hadn't thought about that guy in decades until someone in here mentioned he was gay. :o followed by *violent forehead smack and groan* was my reaction.
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Lol funny you mention Lynd I always knew something was off abt him but could never figure it out. Which was before I knew what 'gay' was. I remember there being some TV show with a gay younger character which caused a stink to where finally a buddies older sister explained what everyone was up in a fuss about. Which I tought was 'normal' until then and that's when I realized maybe Lynd was playing for that team. V
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None so blind as those that see much? :)
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I feel for real that Jack's mom knew her son was gay, the way Jack used to talk all the while about how " He and Ennis Del Mar was going to come and lick the place into shape". I think she put two and two together.
Also the knowing and understanding look in her eyes when she gave Ennis the shirts.
I believe Ennis knew she had figured it out too. Yep......she knew alright and it was almost like he didn't really mind.
I'm also totally convinced that Jack's mother knew, had known for a long time, kept the secret of what the shirts meant and accepted what Ennis was to her son. The instant complicity between her and Ennis was so beautifully conveyed in that scene with nothing being said directly.
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I think both Jack's parents knew he was gay. One loved him, and one despised him, for being so!
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I think both Jack's parents knew he was gay. One loved him, and one despised him, for being so!
^^^ Well said. and despised is the perfect word for conveying the tone of his dad's conversation with Ennis... V.
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Thank you, Gattaca.
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I have been reading old threads for a while now including that ferocious kissing on broke back thread. I also read the opera libretto. I guess we can say that Annie proulx had the final word on that argument :D
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Glad you survived the experience! :D
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I have been reading old threads for a while now including that ferocious kissing on broke back thread. I also read the opera libretto. I guess we can say that Annie proulx had the final word on that argument :D
Well, as has already been stated, hers isn't really the last word, is it? That belongs to the reader/viewer/listener.
I seem to remember she said as much at one time or another.
Of course, none of us can change what's on the page, but we sure as hell can change it in our heads. :)
I do believe the author's will is sacrosanct but hey, once it hits the public domain, anything kinda goes, does it not?
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Well, as has already been stated, hers isn't really the last word, is it? That belongs to the reader/viewer/listener.
I seem to remember she said as much at one time or another.
Of course, none of us can change what's on the page, but we sure as hell can change it in our heads. :)
I do believe the author's will is sacrosanct but hey, once it hits the public domain, anything kinda goes, does it not?
AP is a tough nut to crack.
Like you, I recall her saying that the 'rest of the story' is up to us readers to fill out with our own attitudes, stories, hangups, whatever we bring with us when we read.
On the other hand, I read this article a few days ago that I found on Pinterest:
http://time.com/3648650/brokeback-mountain-annie-proulx/
I can see it from both sides. I've dabbled in fanfic to try and work out some of the minor details for myself as well as exorcise a few demons. I understand this need. The fact that Jack and Ennis don't get their little cow & calf operation devastates me so much I can hardly stand it. That fact that Jack dies anyway and Ennis is left to pick up the pieces of his broken life, and no one really knows or cares that this love happened.....it is absolutely soul-shattering.
However, I also understand the argument that finishing the story in this way diminishes the whole of Ennis' suffering and of the larger story....if you can't fix it, you've got to stand it.
Gah.
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^^^^^^
"But the problem has come since the film." (Annie Proulx)
Problem? :(
For some reason I'm always a bit disappointed and sad when I read that.
I've read of AP's issues (with the film) before, but I can honestly say that, if it wasn't for the film, I wouldn't have known about the short story at all. The story has reached a new audience because of the fim IMO.
I think most casual viewers aren't even aware Brokeback is based on a short story to begin with.
[...] "...it just drives me wild. They can’t understand that the story isn’t about Jack and Ennis. It’s about homophobia; it’s about a social situation; it’s about a place and a particular mindset and morality. They just don’t get it." (Annie Proulx)
I think most people who enjoy(ed) the film, fully understand what it's about. I've read the most incredible slash stories that also focus on society, prejudice and fear.
Maybe AP just got sent the wrong stories? ;D
... Hers isn't really the last word, is it? That belongs to the reader/viewer/listener.
I think so too.
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^^^^^^
I think most casual viewers aren't even aware Brokeback is based on a short story to begin with.
[...] "...it just drives me wild. They can’t understand that the story isn’t about Jack and Ennis. It’s about homophobia; it’s about a social situation; it’s about a place and a particular mindset and morality. They just don’t get it." (Annie Proulx)
I think most people who enjoy(ed) the film, fully understand what it's about. I've read the most incredible slash stories that also focus on society, prejudice and fear.
Maybe AP just got sent the wrong stories? ;D
I don't want to be the one to find out if my 'stories' are of the sort that she would loathe or like. :D It's ok. She gets to be territorial about her story because she did write it, after all, and because it's art, all of us get to interpret it in our own way and let it inspire us.
Most definitely (at least on this and other DBs), we get that the none of the story would've happened had AP's destructive rural homophobia not saturated people's hearts/minds. You're right that there are phenomenal stories out there, both BBM canon and alternate universe that deal with it.
Lotsa wide open spaces.
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^^^^^^
I've read of AP's issues (with the film) before, but I can honestly say that, if it wasn't for the film, I wouldn't have known about the short story at all. The story has reached a new audience because of the fim IMO.
I think most casual viewers aren't even aware Brokeback is based on a short story to begin with.
[...] "...it just drives me wild. They can’t understand that the story isn’t about Jack and Ennis. It’s about homophobia; it’s about a social situation; it’s about a place and a particular mindset and morality. They just don’t get it." (Annie Proulx)
I think most people who enjoy(ed) the film, fully understand what it's about. I've read the most incredible slash stories that also focus on society, prejudice and fear.
Maybe AP just got sent the wrong stories? ;D
I think so too.
When I saw the film, I'd never heard of the short story, and preferred the film to the ss after I did read it. Not sure that's acceptable here but that's how it happened.
If the movie's focus was polemic -- if Ennis and Jack, their relationship and the development of the characters had been subordinate to a more general focus on homophobia (rural or urban) and 'a social situation' it's not likely that many people would have gone to see it twice or that anyone would still be discussing it. The emphasis on characters and story might not have been to the author's liking but polemics have a disastrously short shelf life unless they have some other aspect that's compelling.
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I just read this as well as the full interview here --> http://www.theparisreview.org/interviews/5901/the-art-of-fiction-no-199-annie-proulx
AP has full rights to her story and the characters but her dismissive tone for her "fans" originating from the film is disappointing. Creating problems for her after the film... really? While she's entitled to her opinion, no one can tell me she went into this endeavor with Ossana and McMurtry with blinders on and naive to what the film would do for her, her story and the people involved. The Oscars only amplified the exposure and I would wager that BBM has generated more income for AP than ALL of her other works combined - are those monies also imposing?
Celebrities and authors of popular works can either decide to ride the wave or hunker down and be known for their "bad attitudes" b/c the work has imposed on their lives, really? The famous now-deceased Salinger "The Catcher in the Rye" comes to mind or Harper Lee's "To Kill a Mockingbird". Let's hope AP can move past her bitter tone and accept that she created something that now has a life of it's own - regardless of her 20/20 regrets. What a disappointing attitude for a film and story which has secured her a place in history and IMO, will be viewed 50 or 100 years from now as a keystone to igniting the discussion and social change around both the moral and legal acceptance of homosexuals. I wonder would Rosa Parks have been so... "imposed upon?"
I now wish I had not read the interview b/c if this is really how AP feels about this accomplishment, then karma's going to be a real bitch on that one. V.
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When I saw the film, I'd never heard of the short story, and preferred the film to the ss after I did read it. Not sure that's acceptable here ...
Why wouldn't it be acceptable? I know there are people on here who prefer the short story, but also many, many prefer the film - and I'm one of those. I don't see why there would be two 'camps' on here.
And I also don't see why AP would put Brokeback fans into 'camps'. The ones who prefer the film... "unfortunately [...] have powerful fantasy lives.", as she puts it.
Unfortunately? I think it's a wonderful thing to have a powerful fantasy life. Isn't that also how writers, like AP, make a living?
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The article page doesn't have a date as to when that was written. Does anyone know if it is
new or relatively new?
Anyway, I think all we need to know about Annie Proulx is what she says in one paragraph:
"I am not a person who works well with others."
Of course her Brokeback Mountain story has gotten her attention and she pretty much
doesn't want any attention. The source of that "unwarranted" (in her opinion) attention
is Brokeback Mountain, so she wishes she never wrote it.
The author asks her if this kind of thing happened with any of her other stories, "No," she says.
Well, really, who would want to embrace most of her stories like that? Sit through the film of
The Shipping News again, for example. People turn off most anything that is entirely depressing.
I have read before about these supposed "men" that come to her ranch and all that with the
notions of knowing better than she that the story should've had a happy ending and all and every
time I've read those things they strike a completely false note to me. Something in her telling of
those things just doesn't ring true to me. Anyone else felt that way?
I'm sure the popularity of the film has led some people to want to visit, see or talk to the author,
and someone probably told her about the fan fiction stories that are out there (it seems she is not
aware that a high percentage of them that I know about are written by women and not men), but
even if she did receive some of these things in the mail, are you telling me that she'd read a single
one of them? I don't believe it for a second. This telling of her annoyance, sounds the same in every
interview she discusses it in, as though it was something she'd written to respond to questions that
involve that.
And I happen to think she's reading all of this interest people have in doing that completely wrong.
People are not trying to change her story and think it's better that way. People are trying to cope
with exactly the situation she so beautifully has written. People experience the pain of that, of
what she says it's about: "homophobia; it’s about a social situation; it’s about a place and a particular
mindset and morality." It's a natural instinct to take all things bleak and despairing and seeming without
recourse and give them some "hope." It's what people do. They look for he silver lining. Her story does
not do that--she writes that: "If you can't fix it, ya gotta stand it."
And yet, in fact, the prologue to the story, which was not initially published, does actually feature the
smallest bit of "hope" imaginable. As a human being, the one way things are better for Ennis after he
realizes all his regret, remorse, or whatever...is that he dreams of Jack Twist. "...because Jack Twist was
in his dreams."
It's like after all of the unimaginable horrors that Scarlett O'Hara went through in her life (I was going to
recount them, for emphasis, but...) if she had just said, at the end of the film, "If you can't fix it, ya gotta
stand it," instead of the one line that gives hope to her and those interested in her story, "...after all, tomorrow
is another day...", then I'd imagine audiences would feel that despair, too, and have reacted in different
ways.
It's clear Annie doesn't want people to accept their natural instincts and wants you to feel just the cold brutal
truth, but great literature that people respond to includes, at the very least, a small rope of hope for the reader
to grab on to. Annie doesn't do that in the story at all and I read the story before the movie came out and while
I liked it enough, I doubt if a movie hadn't been made I would have gone back to that story much, if at all. It's the
seeing these characters in real life portrayals that gave them the humanity we empathize with. Since the screen
writers were true to the story they didn't include any hope, but the hope instilled in most audiences is that we
"know" something the characters don't. It didn't "have" to turn out that way and people are not trying to change
her story by expressing their own ways of making the situation better, but rather embracing A.P.'s notions fully.
That's the way I see it. That A.P. doesn't want people to do that, which is natural for most human beings, well,
that's her problem, in my opinion.
All of the interest in her story is because people are doing what they do, they're coping with the pain of the
story, in whatever way that pain affected them, with hope. They're practicing hope. It's what humans do. Just don't
share that idea with Annie Proulx.
That's what I say.
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The article page doesn't have a date as to when that was written. Does anyone know if it is new or relatively new?
Anyway, I think all we need to know about Annie Proulx is what she says in one paragraph: "I am not a person who works well with others."
Of course her Brokeback Mountain story has gotten her attention and she pretty much doesn't want any attention. The source of that "unwarranted" (in her opinion) attention is Brokeback Mountain, so she wishes she never wrote it.
Hi Lyle,
Its from Spring 2009, so not that far back -> -> http://www.theparisreview.org/back-issues/188
I got onto it b/c of the TIME link posted earlier in this thread from 29 Dec 14. Why Time's staff is digging it up is not clear - maybe they just wanted some news?
-> http://time.com/3648650/brokeback-mountain-annie-proulx/
Well said. Bottom Line: If AP doesn't or didn't want the attention, then should she have never published it nor allowed it to be made into a screenplay / film by two such high profile talents.
Again her eyes were open and your "hunch" may be accurate. Hopefully, AP will re-think those words and focus on the positives her story and the controversial film has had on the audiences. V.
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Unfortunately? I think it's a wonderful thing to have a powerful fantasy life.
I love that, Sonja, and am glad that I am so blessed!
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^^^
Sometimes being able to fantasize ...day dream and use your imagination about things......helps keep us sane.
We all need an escape at times....so where is the problem ? :-\
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Fantasize
verb
indulge in daydreaming about something desired.
synonyms: daydream, dream, muse, make-believe, pretend, imagine; More
imagine (something that one wants to happen).
Imagine
verb
: to think of or create (something that is not real) in your mind
: to form a picture or idea in your mind of (something that is not real or present)
: to have or form (an idea or opinion that is not accurate or based on reality)
Isn't fantasy and imagination the foundation for a writer.
Ms. Proux herself said:
Rural North America, regional cultures, the images of an ideal and seemingly attainable world the characters cherish in their long views despite the rigid and difficult circumstances of their place and time interest me and are what I write about. I watch for the historical skew between what people have hoped for and who they thought they were and what befell them. She mentioned once noticing a middle-aged man in a bar, who appeared to be watching only the men playing pool, which led her to consider the life of a typical western ranch hand who might be gay.
If she did not use her imagination and fantasy, then the story would never have been written. Wasn't this last thought imagination?
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If she did not use her imagination and fantasy, then the story would never have been written. Wasn't this last thought imagination?
Exactly.
All of the interest in her story is because people are doing what they do, they're coping with the pain of the
story, in whatever way that pain affected them, with hope. They're practicing hope. It's what humans do.
I agree with everything you say, Lyle.
In the article, she says: "The characters belong to me by law."
Yet in the "Story to Screenplay" book, she said: "It was out of my hands, no longer my story, but Ang Lee's film. And so I said goodbye to Jack and Ennis" [...] (page 136).
So... these characters are everyone's now. Ang Lee made his own choices for Jack and Ennis (from his imagination), Heath and Jake made their own choices when they were playing them ( "Heath Ledger, who knew better than I how Ennis felt and thought"), and we, the audience, are doing the same. Our choices (from our imagination) may not be the same as someone else's, but they're just as valid. To read that AP judges that, in a way, is disappointing and abusive.
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Well, the consensus seems to be that AP has some egg on her face - not something I disagree about at all.
Sonja, I like your digging about and laying out of the facts. Well done. :-*
But thanks to AP who gave birth to Jack n Ennis in the first place, and, of course, to Jake and Heath for putting the meat on the bones.
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I don't know why this old article is getting traction lately either. I've even had friends send it to me; "thought you'd be interested". LOL
Let's face it: she's a cranky so and so, and I think she has contradicted herself.
Before the film, she had written about the very moving letters she had received from men who were touched by her story. 'That was my story'; or 'now I know the hell my son went through', etc.
We all know how enthusiastic Annie was when the film came out. She was very complimentary toward Diana and Larry, and also to Jake and especially Heath. She was outraged by the Oscar snub, like all of us. Remember the "Trash, er, Crash" essay?
She was also the one who said, "It is my feeling that a story is not finished until it is read, and that
the reader finishes it through his or her life experience, prejudices,
world view and thoughts." That some people did this in a literal manner shouldn't be surprising.
In the Paris Review article, she says that people are getting it all wrong; that's it not about Jack and Ennis, but rather about rural homophobia. Well, duh. But she also said that Jack and Ennis became very real for her, the first time her characters had "not behaved".
She says she's bothered by the supposedly straight men who have sent her fan fiction. (Who the hell are they? We all know most of our fanfic is written by women). Maybe these men were arrogant enough to send their stories to her, looking for, what, her approval? Unlikely to happen! She called them "ghastly and pornish". So what? Just chuck them and move on. Not sure how this is such a bother. To cry out "I own them legally" seems ridiculously defensive.
Perhaps the real bother is this: it's all anyone wants to talk to her about. She may have won the Pulitzer for Shipping News, but who ever talks about that, surely not that awful film? I suspect she feels "typecast" by having written Brokeback. Forever she is "...Annie Proulx, writer of Brokeback Mountain, made into a blockbuster film by Ang......" Poor Annie. No one care about her Red Desert project.
To say 'I wish I never wrote it' sure makes her sound like a petulant child. It's sad.
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Yep, you've pretty much nailed it, Paul.
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Also posted in the Jack and Ennis Relationship thread
(http://Also posted in the Jack and Ennis Relationship thread)
I think, in some ways, Annie Proulx resents the way, we as readers, and as an audience, focus on the story of Jack and Ennis, rather than on the homophobia which she insists was what she was writing about.
I can understand what she means, but the homophobia was so brilliantly done, so awful, so shocking, so personal (in some ways) that her audience could not stand the pain.
That is why so many of us could not cope without writing Jack and Ennis a happy ending.
I certainly knew no peace until I had done just that in my story "If Jack Hadn't Died." Since when I have not written anything else of a fictional nature.
It was the catharsis for me and the end of the trauma inflicted by the short story and the film.
She should comfort herself that what she wrote was so powerful that it changed minds, and lives.
I strongly suspect that we would not have equal marriage laws in so many parts of the world without this powerful drama, and the anguish that it caused.
If her story had the happy ending we all wished for it would just have been a nice, if rather controversial, (at the time) romance.
It wasn't, it ripped many of us asunder, and brought us here.
However, Annie Proulx should not complain that she did her job so well that we are having to try various stratagems to live with the pain that she caused us.
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I love all the comments from so many people.
For me, I started hearing about BBM in the summer of 2005. I started looking for youtube ads about it, as these were coming from all the foreign film festivals. Then I picked up the short story, before having seen the full film.
My brain is wired in that I am more a visual person than the written word, although I am an avid reader. But when reading, the visuals gotten from the written word are there. So to me, the written short story did not have the same effect on me as the visual movie. But another aspect of it, is that if I had read the short story back in 1997 when it was published, I would not have been ready or open for the change that occurred in 2006 when I saw the movie and read the short story. I was at a point in my life where I was open for a change, although I did not know it at the time. In hindsight, after many months of reflection about what the movie had done for me and to me, this was one of my many realizations.
From talking to people who got the movie like all of us here, the same thing was true for them. We all got blindsided by the movie for thousands of reasons, change being one of the many.
The thing is, the movie would never have been made without the short story. I thank Annie Proux for this. All the mixed and contradictory things she has to say about the short story do not change the fact that the movie we all love, the characters we all feel for, the changes that affected us all, the wonderful people we have all come in contact with personally and virtually, was made. It is a piece of history and as many have said, has gone a long way to helping enact the changes that are taking place for LGBT equality today. All her negativity has no bearing on the profound effect it has had on me and on all of us.
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I have read before about these supposed "men" that come to her ranch and all that with the notions of knowing better than she that the story should've had a happy ending and all and every
time I've read those things they strike a completely false note to me. Something in her telling of those things just doesn't ring true to me. Anyone else felt that way?
I'm sure the popularity of the film has led some people to want to visit, see or talk to the author, and someone probably told her about the fan fiction stories that are out there (it seems she is not
aware that a high percentage of them that I know about are written by women and not men), but even if she did receive some of these things in the mail, are you telling me that she'd read a single
one of them? I don't believe it for a second. This telling of her annoyance, sounds the same in every interview she discusses it in, as though it was something she'd written to respond to questions that
involve that.
I recall commenting when this first came up that sending an author a fanfic story claiming you'd "fixed" it would be a very odd thing to do, though someone (can't remember who) claimed they knew somebody who had done just that. Literally knocking on the author's door, that sounds a little less convincing. Although you have to figure in the fact that there's nothing so whacko that someone out there won't do it. >:D
Some fanfic writers have allegedly received C&D letters from her attorneys. But on the other hand, some fiction writers, including Anne Rice, have forbidden any fanfics of their work and follow violations up with legal action. Annie Proulx may have done some complaining but so far she's been more tolerant of BBM fanfics than that.
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.....have allegedly received C&D letters from her attorneys. But on the other hand, some fiction writers, including Anne Rice, have forbidden any fanfics of their work and follow violations up with legal action. Annie Proulx may have done some complaining but so far she's been more tolerant of BBM fanfic fans than that.
That is why I would be very hesitant to post fanfic on websites and might even think twice before showing my writing to anyone else.
My mother worked in trademark/patent law for years so she made me a bit hypercautious. Even though *I* know I would never try to pass off the characters or the OS as my own, much less try to profit from it, I don't even want it to look like I *could*.
AP can complain if she wants. I can understand where she's coming from. But as a fan I also get where fans come from, and most of us just want to work out the story. Details that we need to fill in for ourselves....and sometimes we might just need an excuse to spend more time with these characters that we love so much.
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In the article, she says: "The characters belong to me by law."
It’s an interesting statement. What she’s saying is about ownership, that the characters, as she created them, are hers.
The characters created by others aren’t the ones she created.
Yet in the "Story to Screenplay" book, she said: "It was out of my hands, no longer my story, but Ang Lee's film. And so I said goodbye to Jack and Ennis" [...] (page 136).
That’s where she had earlier clarified her ownership of Jack and Ennis.
The film’s Jack and Ennis weren’t the characters she’d created.
So... these characters are everyone's now. Ang Lee made his own choices for Jack and Ennis (from his imagination), Heath and Jake made their own choices when they were playing them ( "Heath Ledger, who knew better than I how Ennis felt and thought"), and we, the audience, are doing the same. Our choices (from our imagination) may not be the same as someone else's, but they're just as valid. To read that AP judges that, in a way, is disappointing and abusive.
I mentioned something along these lines in TOTW 183, when I said that it was my impression that Proulx understood that her “ownership” of the film’s characters was not applicable once the film had been released.
I don’t know why her reaction to “our choices” would constitute a “disappointing and abusive” judgement, Sonja. ???
In her 2009 interview with Christopher Cox in The Paris Review (http://www.theparisreview.org/interviews/5901/the-art-of-fiction-no-199-annie-proulx) Proulx also said “I think it’s important to leave spaces in a story for readers to fill in from their own experience, but unfortunately the audience that ‘Brokeback’ reached most strongly have powerful fantasy lives.”
My feeling is that this is fair comment. Proulx’s concern here is that a “happy” ending would negate the purpose of her writing the story in the first place.
Another story in which the ending is also “sad” is du Maurier’s My Cousin Rachel, in which she not once made it clear whether or not the enigmatic Rachel was a murderess, a clever, money-grubbing killer or an innocent woman coping with conflicting emotions. The de Havilland/Burton film version was similarly ambiguous about the manner of the death of Ambrose Ashley, despite the suspicions of his nephew, Philip. Clarifying the issue to the extent that she was found to be innocent, and having her live at the end, or that she was indeed a killer, and her death was a just dessert (both interpretations are plausible) would have undermined the purpose of the entire plot, in both story and film. That we don't know the real motivations behind her actions is as important an aspect of the novel as the manner of Jack's death (Lureen's and Ennis's versions are equally plausible) in Proulx's short story.
Story Ennis and Jack are Proulx’s presentations of the individuals she created, and as such they behave as she’s programmed them to behave.
But film Ennis and Jack are a different matter. Film actors are not only beholden to their respective directors’ vision but also bring their own interpretative skills to the roles they play.
That the actors, in this case, look nothing like the SS characters, but are instead photogenic (even gorgeous, “heart-throb” material) is another major difference from the characters Proulx created.
In the short story her ambiguities and vaguenesses provide opportunities for a single reader’s personal interpretations, but a film “irons out” and/or clarifies these issues, and not only presents them larger than life in group viewings (and often in close-ups, to create a direct and immediate emotional connection with audience members), but provides an evocative/manipulative soundtrack. I hesitate to mention the insertion of the erroneous, non-SS, SNIT scene...
She also said, in 1999, in The Missouri Review (http://www.missourireview.com/archives/bbarticle/an-interview-with-annie-proulx/), when asked whether she thought that “serious fiction, by definition, ends unhappily,” that
I would like to get beyond this happy/unhappy-ending discussion, which seems to me to have more the character of trap than open door. It is very difficult to know what is “happy” or “unhappy.” [...]
The label “happy” is comparative, subjective, sometimes deliberately illusory, sometimes—as in Shipping News—ironic or not what it seems. In working endings for stories and novels I try simply for a natural cessation of story. Most of my writing focuses on a life or lives set against a particular time and place. This is the nature of things, and, though it sounds simplistic, this is what shapes my view of the past and present, both as related to my personal life and the lives of characters.
One is born, one lives in one’s time, one dies. I try to understand place and time through the events in a character’s life, and the end is the end. The person, the character, is one speck of life among many, many. The ending, then, should reflect for the reader some element of value or importance in the telling of this ending among the possible myriad of stories that might have been told.
Her final sentence here is another way of saying that one of her characters in the SS had to die in order to give the story a point, much as Woolf did with Septimus Smith in Mrs Dalloway, and Cunningham with Richard Brown in The Hours.
The visionary in Proulx's Brokeback Mountain also had to die, as did both Woolf's and Cunningham's, in order to make others value life more.
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Hi Paul! :-*
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This article about copyright and trademarks may be helpful if you want to dig into the copyright discussion
http://io9.com/10-things-everyone-gets-wrong-about-intellectual-proper-1679011301
V
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I can see why Annie Proulx isn't fond of doing interviews! With an interview like the Paris Review one, where there is just a question and answer format there are no emoticons and yet it's obvious that at times she's being humorous. (Check out the Ribeye Cluke remark.) We don't know when she rolled her eyes or laughed or frowned.
She owns her characters, no doubt about that. She occasionally allows other artists to use them in their own way. If Ang Lee decided to make Return To Brokeback, or if Ossana and McMurtrey wanted to write Brokeback: Summer of 62, or if Jake Gyllenhaal had an urge to take a Jack Twist show on the road they'd soon find out who owns the characters and the story.
I do know slash authors who were issued with Cease & Desist letters. I know of authors who have adapted their Brokeback slash and published it but the resulting stories are well away from the original. I know that most slash authors put a disclaimer at the head of their stories saying that the characters belong to Annie Proulx.
I sympathise with Proulx because some readers interpreted "If you can't fix it you've got to stand it" as a writing challenge rather than as the reality facing a particular character. It is clearly frustrating for her to have a carefully constructed story pulled apart and altered because some readers didn't like how the end result made them feel.
But the Paris Review interview was something like five years ago and she has had the opportunity to re-present her story to the public in her own way, that is, the opera. Returning to my original point a week or so ago, it seems that her comment in the libretto about the kiss at the reunion is her quiet but determined effort to claim back some of her original intent which was dramatically altered in the film. I pick that out because it's the most obvious example of where she is making a point about her story.
She can't dictate how the singers interpret their roles within the bounds of her libretto but she can make those bounds clear to both singers and directors.
Whew! That's more than I've said in a whole year!
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It's easier to ask here rather than delve elsewhere so; did AP not include a reunion kiss in the opera, then?
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Whew! That's more than I've said in a whole year!
:D :D :D
Well done! Interesting post.
From all of you, by the way. Thank you.
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[...]
I sympathise with Proulx because some readers interpreted "If you can't fix it you've got to stand it" as a writing challenge rather than as the reality facing a particular character. It is clearly frustrating for her to have a carefully constructed story pulled apart and altered because some readers didn't like how the end result made them feel.
But the Paris Review interview was something like five years ago and she has had the opportunity to re-present her story to the public in her own way, that is, the opera. Returning to my original point a week or so ago, it seems that her comment in the libretto about the kiss at the reunion is her quiet but determined effort to claim back some of her original intent which was dramatically altered in the film. I pick that out because it's the most obvious example of where she is making a point about her story.
Well said. :)
She can't dictate how the singers interpret their roles within the bounds of her libretto but she can make those bounds clear to both singers and directors.
... and as the opera's librettist she also has far more authority. :)
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Hi Paul! :-*
Hi Sonja!
(https://ultimatebrokebackforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi412.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fpp201%2Frasalgethi_photo%2Femoticons%2F1199d34f.gif&hash=eb075be42d1cc9beea93f5a1fbbd34ac2a668c32)
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;D
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;D
(https://ultimatebrokebackforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi412.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fpp201%2Frasalgethi_photo%2Femoticons%2Fgiving-thumbs-up-winking-smiley-emoticon_zpsbwvz4nev.gif&hash=48d9b88661c5d35ed3dd61720a5dcd02bddaae2f)
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Don't ask me how I found it (I was searching for something else), but it seems like a DVD of the BBM Opera will be released after all.
A copy (Region 2 / Europe only!) can be pre-ordered at:
http://www.amazon.fr/Wuorinen-Brokeback-Mountain-Charles/dp/B00QMTDBI6/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1422116054&sr=8-4&keywords=brokeback+mountain (http://www.amazon.fr/Wuorinen-Brokeback-Mountain-Charles/dp/B00QMTDBI6/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1422116054&sr=8-4&keywords=brokeback+mountain)
Available on February 24th, at least that's what I think it says. My French isn't that great ::)
Haven't seen it anywhere else yet.
Can't say I'm too impressed with the artwork...
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It's easier to ask here rather than delve elsewhere so; did AP not include a reunion kiss in the opera, then?
Yes, she did.
I don’t know why her reaction to “our choices” would constitute a “disappointing and abusive” judgement, Sonja. ???
Without going into copyright issues and all that, why doesn't AP just accept 'her' Jack & Ennis are now 'our' Jack & Ennis? I feel she should be proud the characters have a life of their own now! I've said before that, if it wasn't for the movie, I wouldn't even have known who Jack & Ennis are. Once a writer accepts that their work is to be adapted for a movie, they should be aware their characters are no longer their own.
Isn't it something to be proud of that the story you wrote appeals to a whole new audience? That it gets people thinking - that it gets their imagination going?
Jack & Ennis are fictional characters. They're not real people. To read that AP judges some of us for creating fictional 'situations' ( ;) ) for fictional characters is disappointing to me.
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Our choices (from our imagination) may not be the same as someone else's, but they're just as valid.
The point about some people's imaginative choices being valid, even if not the same as other people’s, is fair comment.
But not when you’re comparing such choices to those made by the writer of a specific work. That writer’s choices are paramount.
(I guess you’re referring to Forum members when you say “our” choices and “our” imagination, but might be wrong. ???)
To read that AP judges that, in a way, is disappointing and abusive.
She has every right to give her honest point of view about things when asked in an interview.
That you might not like what she said doesn’t mean she’s being abusive or negatively judgmental.
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Without going into copyright issues and all that, why doesn't AP just accept 'her' Jack & Ennis are now 'our' Jack & Ennis? I feel she should be proud the characters have a life of their own now! I've said before that, if it wasn't for the movie, I wouldn't even have known who Jack & Ennis are.
I think the point is that film Jack and Ennis aren’t story Jack and Ennis (for reasons mentioned previously here and elsewhere on DCF).
With due respect, Sonja, that you believe AP should be “proud” that “her” characters now have “a life of their own” since the film’s release is a bit of a red herring—she wrote a short story, with a definite ending, not an ongoing series, in which Jack and Ennis live on.
Another issue is that while the “story” has been made available to more people via the medium of film it’s not the story she wrote.
The film version “fleshed out” things which she decided were best left unsaid, or which were referred to in a minimalist or oblique way, and included other changes as well (such as casting actors who were more photogenic than their story versions, the omission of other characters she thought were needed, for instance).
That people wouldn’t have known about Jack and Ennis except for the film isn’t a reason to expect AP to be proud.
(I think the same could also be asked of any writer whose work was filmed.)
I've never met Annie Proulx and wouldn't be so presumptuous to speak for her, but in my opinion it’s still an unreasonable, and unwarranted, expectation of any writer.
Writers are under no moral obligation to be grateful (for goodness' sake ::)) to people simply because they’ve seen a film adaptation of their work.
Once a writer accepts that their work is to be adapted for a movie, they should be aware their characters are no longer their own.
Her point was that because some people are/were so affected by the film they wanted a happy ending, which contradicts her intention in writing it in the first place.
Isn't it something to be proud of that the story you wrote appeals to a whole new audience? That it gets people thinking - that it gets their imagination going?
That it gets people to think could also be said of the story, but being proud about it doing so isn’t obligatory.
Jack & Ennis are fictional characters. They're not real people. To read that AP judges some of us for creating fictional 'situations' ( ;) ) for fictional characters is disappointing to me.
As a writer she’s entitled—especially when specifically asked—to say what she thinks about people wanting an imagined happy ending, one which has nothing at all to do with the story she wrote.
The argument that as her characters are already fictional it doesn’t really matter what they do doesn't hold water. ;D
While her characters are indeed fictional they exist within the world she herself created, the paths they took in life were the ones she’d decided upon and the events they experienced were those she, as their creator, had determined would occur.
To imagine otherwise is logically inconsistent with Jack and Ennis’s fictional world—and even verges on morbid wishful thinking. (Sorry about that last bit. :D)
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Annie Proulx should take her own advice; if she can't fix it, she ought to stand it.
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Thank you, Lyle ;D
I just read this as well as the full interview here --> http://www.theparisreview.org/interviews/5901/the-art-of-fiction-no-199-annie-proulx
A quote from that interview:
- "I haven’t had the same sort of problem with anything else I’ve ever written. Nothing else. People saw it as a story about two cowboys. It was never about two cowboys. You know you have to have characters to hang the story on but I guess they were too real. A lot of people have adopted them and put their names on their license plates. Sometimes the cart gets away from the horse—the characters outgrew the intent.
I’m trying to exorcise them now, because Charles Wuorinen is doing an opera of “Brokeback Mountain.” And I’m working on the libretto, working on changes so I can finally get Jack and Ennis loose from my life."
- Were you tempted to say no to that project?
- "I was, but then I figured that one of these idiots who loves happy endings would come along and start messing with it. I want to keep the story as it is. It’s a strong story and it shouldn’t be mangled into everybody lives happily ever after. Not that that could happen in an opera."
"Idots"? Well, thank you very much :-\ I don't like how she talks about it. Annie Proulx is entitled to her own take on things - but we, the audience, are too.
In a way, I can see her side of the story (literally ;) ), but she should accept what 'Brokeback Mountain' has become over time. Today, it's more than just her story.
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''Idiots?'' An unfortunate choice of words. :(
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Quite :(
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Maybe we should move this discussion to the Annie Proulx thread?
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Oh? There is one?
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If not, then it needs to be started if the chat in here's been anything to go on.
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Maybe we should move this discussion to the Annie Proulx thread?
Very good idea, Lyle.
Oh, and I don't mean that in a 'modding' way, I mean it is a good idea.
Here is a link to the thread. Feel free to bring the discussion there.
Annie Proulx (http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=629.0)
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:)
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I have never read Annie Proulx's short story, but I wouldn't blame her for getting upset about people giving "Brokeback Mountain" a happy ending. For instance, I think that Jack's death made the film have an even more significant emotional impact. I heard that she got very upset by some of the fan-fiction stories about the film, especially the pornographic versions of it. I can understand why she has reacted in the way that she has, because she is the person responsible for writing the story and it must hold a lot of personal meaning for her. Her story has inspired countless people throughout the world, so I am not shocked at her anger over people who tamper with it by changing certain events in the story. That is just my personal take on it.
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I'm bumping up this post as a reminder to everyone on this Valentine's Day weekend that we can vote for a movie we LOVE to be included in the next selection of films to the National Film Registry. One of the criteria is that films have to be at least ten years old, so this is the first year Brokeback Mountain is eligible!
Only a very few have made it on their first try. so send your VOTE to the link provided. There's also a link with info about the film registry, it's purpose, etc.
By the way, the website says nothing about having to be from the United States to send in your vote, so don't let that stop you! (It IS a Government agency, though, so they may be spying on your IP address! LOL! J/K! )
Time to Vote!
Librarian of Congress James H. Billington seeks nominations for the National Film Registry. Public nominations play a key role when the Librarian of Congress and Film Board are considering their final selections. To be eligible for the Registry, a film must be at least 10 years old and be “culturally, historically, or aesthetically significant.”
For consideration, please forward recommendations (limit 50 titles per year) via email to: dross@loc.gov . Please include the date of the film nominated (i.e. 2005) , and number your recommendations:
(i.e. 1. Brokeback Mountain), please; alphabetizing would be nice, too. No need to include justifications for your nominations unless the films are not well known (not listed in IMDb, for example). And if you would, please tell us how you learned of the Registry.
http://www.loc.gov/film/vote.html
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Followed the link and voted; it just takes an email. :)
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Someone over on FB suggests that the opposite of Brokeback Mountain would be Fixfront Valley.
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=809555049079779&set=a.100856356616322.1716.100000758748492&type=1&comment_id=809806955721255
Anthony Malone: "goes different way than BBM. And it is called Fixfront Valley with happy endings all around."
:D
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"It's difficult for me to identify with my image in photos. I attribute that to a life-long habit of observation, rather than participation. This photo was taken in 2007. I was happy then, the happiest I'd been since the births of my children: I had managed after eight years of relentlessness to get our screenplay of Brokeback Mountain made into a fine film. Oliver and Amanda were my sole companions and had brought life into my home, my first dogs in nearly a decade, and a great comfort to me when in the following year, Heath tragically passed away, then my beloved older brother/best friend ended his long battle with cancer. Since this photo, Ollie and Mandy have been joined by five more orphan dogs; my foster child and young niece Ashley; and Larry and Faye McMurtry. My home today is very, very "alive." And I realize, looking at this photo, that this all began in 2007. And I wouldn't have it any other way...." Diana Ossana 2015
How Do You Feel When You See Yourself in a Photo?
Art and Design post by Sarah Mirk on March 20, 2015
http://bitchmagazine.org/post/how-do-you-feel-when-you-see-yourself-in-a-photo (http://bitchmagazine.org/post/how-do-you-feel-when-you-see-yourself-in-a-photo)
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"It's difficult for me to identify with my image in photos. I attribute that to a life-long habit of observation, rather than participation. This photo was taken in 2007. I was happy then, the happiest I'd been since the births of my children: I had managed after eight years of relentlessness to get our screenplay of Brokeback Mountain made into a fine film. Oliver and Amanda were my sole companions and had brought life into my home, my first dogs in nearly a decade, and a great comfort to me when in the following year, Heath tragically passed away, then my beloved older brother/best friend ended his long battle with cancer. Since this photo, Ollie and Mandy have been joined by five more orphan dogs; my foster child and young niece Ashley; and Larry and Faye McMurtry. My home today is very, very "alive." And I realize, looking at this photo, that this all began in 2007. And I wouldn't have it any other way...." Diana Ossana 2015
How Do You Feel When You See Yourself in a Photo?
Art and Design post by Sarah Mirk on March 20, 2015
http://bitchmagazine.org/post/how-do-you-feel-when-you-see-yourself-in-a-photo (http://bitchmagazine.org/post/how-do-you-feel-when-you-see-yourself-in-a-photo)
I'm sure that "Brokeback Mountain" will always have a significant place in Diana Ossana's career. Her dedication to getting the film made is quite inspiring to me.
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http://www.theguardian.com/film/2015/apr/02/the-film-that-makes-me-cry-brokeback-mountain
Although it lost out to Crash for the best picture Oscar, it was recently revealed that many Academy members would now opt for Brokeback Mountain if they could change their vote, which speaks volumes about the film's lasting impact.
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And yet, and yet.
It probably has had a greater impact (not on us, but on the general moviegoing public) for having been denied a best-picture Oscar than it would have had there not been all the controversy.
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And yet, and yet.
It probably has had a greater impact (not on us, but on the general moviegoing public) for having been denied a best-picture Oscar than it would have had there not been all the controversy.
I agree. I do think that the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences realizes how much of a mistake it was for failing to bestow the Academy Award for Best Picture to "Brokeback Mountain".
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Dear Friends of Brokeback Mountain:
The University of Wyoming/American Heritage Center has formally announced our launch of Out West in the Rockies, the first regional archive of LGBT history and culture in the American West. http://www.uwyo.edu/uw/news/2015/06/lgbt-archive-of-the-american-west-launched-at-the-university-of-wyoming.html (http://www.uwyo.edu/uw/news/2015/06/lgbt-archive-of-the-american-west-launched-at-the-university-of-wyoming.html)
HBO is our first sponsor. Diana Ossana and Larry McMurtry have offered to assist in any way they can.
I am so hoping to develop an important Brokeback collection. We discussed the digital files of the Ultimate Brokeback Forum. Confidentiallity concerns can be discussed with AHC Digital Collections Curator Tyler Cline. That said, personal papers, including ephemera, photos, correspondence, Brokeback Mountain prequels, sequels, etc would also be great. So to music scores, etc relating to Meet Me on the Mountain, and performance ephemera.
I would also so love Lydia's papers, if they remain intact, if possible.
Last November I drove my personal papers, including my books, films, plays and Out West programming and correspondence through the Rockies in a blizzard for delivery at the doorstep of the American Heritage Center. I cannot express properly how important and emotional this right of passage was to me. See this note from AHC to me:
"The staff at the American Heritage Center has recently completed a new online finding aid for the Gregory Hinton papers. Please see http://rmoa.unm.edu/docviewer.php?docId=wyu-ah12604.xml (http://rmoa.unm.edu/docviewer.php?docId=wyu-ah12604.xml). We are extremely grateful to you for making these papers available. We hope that this guide will assist researchers interested in the material and that you will be pleased with it."
I have now spoken twice at the LGBTQ Alliance of the American Alliance of Museums, Expo 2014 and 2015. I announced this archive in Atlanta. I am now invited to keynote the Western Museum Association in Phoenix 2016. My Topic? "Out West in the Rockies"
The Ultimate Brokeback Forum has been instrumental in giving voice to the rural western LGBT experience. December, 2015, is the 10th Anniversary of Brokeback Mountain. I so hope you will collectively get the word out about the archive. We need collections and donations. http://www.uwyo.edu/ahc/ (http://www.uwyo.edu/ahc/) Please find a way to establish the Forum in this collection.
Sometimes I re-read the dialogue of our stage reading of Beyond Brokeback. My favorite line: "It was the story of our wounding being told."
Best,
Gregory
Gregory Hinton, Producer
Out West in the Rockies
323.876.9585 gregoryhinton@earthlink.net
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Variety’s 106-page marriage equality special issue includes Q&As, features, analysis, columns and more on Hollywood’s role in gay rights.
"This year marks the 10th anniversary of “Brokeback Mountain,” which made history as the first gay romance to cross over into the mainstream, eventually grossing $178 million worldwide. Nearly a decade later, it’s still the most successful same-sex love story that Hollywood has ever produced. The film’s director Ang Lee and producer James Schamus spoke to Variety in separate conversations about their memories of the movie, starring Jake Gyllenhaal and Heath Ledger as closeted cowboys."
http://variety.com/2015/film/news/making-brokeback-mountain-ang-lee-james-schamus-gay-romance-film-1201529588/ (http://variety.com/2015/film/news/making-brokeback-mountain-ang-lee-james-schamus-gay-romance-film-1201529588/)
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Variety’s 106-page marriage equality special issue includes Q&As, features, analysis, columns and more on Hollywood’s role in gay rights.
"This year marks the 10th anniversary of “Brokeback Mountain,” which made history as the first gay romance to cross over into the mainstream, eventually grossing $178 million worldwide. Nearly a decade later, it’s still the most successful same-sex love story that Hollywood has ever produced. The film’s director Ang Lee and producer James Schamus spoke to Variety in separate conversations about their memories of the movie, starring Jake Gyllenhaal and Heath Ledger as closeted cowboys."
http://variety.com/2015/film/news/making-brokeback-mountain-ang-lee-james-schamus-gay-romance-film-1201529588/ (http://variety.com/2015/film/news/making-brokeback-mountain-ang-lee-james-schamus-gay-romance-film-1201529588/)
This is great jeannie. Thanks for posting it.
Though off topic....scroll further down and click on the "Southpaw" picture.
It gives a review of said film. After reading it....I still can't tell if they like it or not !!
They give in one hand.....and take away with the other !! :-\
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I know... I had read it already :-\
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(https://ultimatebrokebackforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1347.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fp706%2Fwuppie1968%2FHeath%2Fbrokeback-10years_zpsxzlisgks.jpg&hash=0999e943982be12458df48f770c5f2701b40d782)
To mark Brokeback Mountain’s 10th anniversary, we invited director Ang Lee, screenwriters Diana Ossana and Larry McMurtry, and actors Jake Gyllenhaal, Anne Hathaway, and Randy Quaid to look back on the making of this seminal movie.
http://www.out.com/out-exclusives/2015/7/28/brokeback-mountain-10-years-oral-history (http://www.out.com/out-exclusives/2015/7/28/brokeback-mountain-10-years-oral-history)
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Another article:
Ossana: "Jack Nicholson was stunned when he opened the envelope. He told us, “I voted for you guys!”
http://www.advocate.com/arts-entertainment/2015/07/28/brokeback-mountain-10th-anniversary-gay-classic?team=social (http://www.advocate.com/arts-entertainment/2015/07/28/brokeback-mountain-10th-anniversary-gay-classic?team=social)
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Another article:
Ossana: "Jack Nicholson was stunned when he opened the envelope. He told us, “I voted for you guys!”
http://www.advocate.com/arts-entertainment/2015/07/28/brokeback-mountain-10th-anniversary-gay-classic?team=social (http://www.advocate.com/arts-entertainment/2015/07/28/brokeback-mountain-10th-anniversary-gay-classic?team=social)
Both of these are great reads! V.
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I'm gonna reference these posts in the AWARDS AFTERMATH thread!
(...seems appropriate...)
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To mark Brokeback Mountain’s 10th anniversary, we invited director Ang Lee, screenwriters Diana Ossana and Larry McMurtry, and actors Jake Gyllenhaal, Anne Hathaway, and Randy Quaid to look back on the making of this seminal movie.
Can Randy Quaid look back in a semblance of reality nowadays?
Heh!
Thanks, BJD, for all the links you posted here and there today!
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Thanks, BJD, for all the links you posted here and there today!
You're welcome, Lyle! :)
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(https://ultimatebrokebackforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1347.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fp706%2Fwuppie1968%2FHeath%2Fbrokeback-10years_zpsxzlisgks.jpg&hash=0999e943982be12458df48f770c5f2701b40d782)
To mark Brokeback Mountain’s 10th anniversary, we invited director Ang Lee, screenwriters Diana Ossana and Larry McMurtry, and actors Jake Gyllenhaal, Anne Hathaway, and Randy Quaid to look back on the making of this seminal movie.
http://www.out.com/out-exclusives/2015/7/28/brokeback-mountain-10-years-oral-history (http://www.out.com/out-exclusives/2015/7/28/brokeback-mountain-10-years-oral-history)
I wonder what Heath would have to say about " Brokeback Mountain" if he were still with us.? This film really did have an positive impact on their careers of the cast and crew members. They still seem to have nothing but good things to say about the film, even after nearly a decade since its theatrical release.
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I wonder what Heath would have to say about " Brokeback Mountain" if he were still with us.?
I've often wondered about that too, B.W. We'll never know, sadly.
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I've often wondered about that too, B.W. We'll never know, sadly.
BlueJeanDarlin',
What you have said is sad, but true. I wonder what Heath's family thinks of " Brokeback Mountain", if they have even seen it? I'm sure that they probably have seen it before, probably more than once. I be that they would be so proud of him for giving such an incredible performance. His parents had such an amazing young man for a son who was filled with an incredible amount of potential. Jake Gyllenhaal's parents are equally as lucky to have Jake for a son, and Maggie for a daughter.
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Come to think of it, I wonder how many times the cast and crew of "Brokeback Mountain" have seen the film since it's theatrical release? It would have to be a very difficult to do, especially since Heath Ledger's death. He made the film what it was.
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I would have no difficulty in believing the figure to be none, B.W. Maybe snippets here and there, but the whole movie? - unless there are some cast/crew like Maria Callas who, towards the end of her life in Paris, used to listening only to her own recordings, I believe.
And as you say, Heath's Ennis must make it exceedingly difficult, as it is for most of us.
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I know why I've watched it so many times and as I was reading the screenplay and Annie Proulx's comments afterwards she said this...
"These characters did something that, as a writer, I had never experienced before-they began to get very damn real.
Usually I deal with obedient characters who do what they are told, but Jack and Ennis soon seemed more vivid than many of the flesh-and-blood people around me and there emerged an antiphonal back-and-forth relationship between writer and character."
The movie disturbed her because it was like they channeled her mind and got it very right. She especially felt that way about Heath who knew better that herself how Ennis felt and thought ...frightening power. So, now I don't have to worry about my recent obsession with this book and movie.
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I'm not 100% certain, but I believe that Diana Osanna has not watched the movie since Heath's death. She's said it's too hard for her.
I can recall a Brokie gathering where Diana appeared for a Q&A, and she sat in the theater with us for the movie, but once the lights went down, and Heath came onscreen, she got up and walked out.
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For anyone who is on Facebook, Today on facebook, the Criterion Collection asked: If you could choose one film to be added to the collection, which would it be?
Perhaps we should tell them about Brokeback? ;)
https://www.facebook.com/CriterionCollection/posts/10155990909330565?fref=nf
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Perhaps we should tell them about Brokeback? ;)
Sara did! :) I agreed ;D
What is the Criterion Collection anyway, if I may ask?
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The Criterion Collection is a bunch of great films, the classiest movies, available on DVD. B&N has an entire selection devoted to them.
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I've still got a number of Criterion Collection Laser Discs! :D
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...and the Criterion Collection usually has a lot of special extras made for the release not
available in other editions and mostly geared to the historical or artistic place the films
have attained. (Though there's always exceptions.)
From their website:
The Criterion Collection is a continuing series of important classic and contemporary films on home video. Our editions often feature restored film transfers, commentary tracks, and other supplemental features that the company pioneered when it released its first laserdiscs at the end of 1984. Ever since, Criterion has been working closely with filmmakers and scholars to ensure that each film is presented as its maker would want it seen and published in an edition that will deepen the viewer’s understanding and appreciation of the art of cinema.
Each film release has a producer who oversees the entire process, from restoration to supplemental features to packaging. The producer researches available materials, conceives of original supplements, and decides which features truly add value to the appreciation of the film. We are fortunate to work with many great film directors, cinematographers, actors, scholars, and critics. We do not let market factors or an arbitrary quantity of supplements determine our decision for inclusion; rather it is on a case-by-case basis, serving the purpose of enhancing the viewer’s experience of that particular film.
We aim to reflect the breadth of filmed expression. We try not to be restrictive or snobby about what kinds of films are appropriate. An auteur classic, a Hollywood blockbuster or an independent B horror film has to be taken on its own terms. All we ask is that each film in the collection be an exemplary film of its kind. Of course we can’t just pick movies and put them out. The process of getting the rights to release a film can take years. Even if we want a film, we can’t work on it unless the film’s owners grant us the rights.
They also add:
If you would like to suggest a title, please write to suggestions@criterion.com. Though you will get an automatic reply, our acquisitions staff reads all the suggestions and appreciates hearing from you.
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Thanks guys! :-*
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I just posted an answer on FB.
You may all guess what film I suggested! :D
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Do ursine creatures defecate in sylvan surroundings?
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:D :D :D
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I'll send you a postcard! :) :) :)
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Hello Brokies.....
There were a number of posts here, that pertained to the play taking place in London.
You'll note they're not here any longer.
When I read the posts, it hit me that they would be perfect on their own as a thread to start discussing a possible London gathering. So I split the posts into their own thread and moved it to the Members Only section. I want to stress that the posts here were not 'off topic", but they just seemed perfect to become the official thread for a London gathering.
Let's use the new thread to set up a London gathering! It will be featured in Tuesday's TDS.
http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=49074.0
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Update - Dave Cullen Forum
Hello DCF members. We have another update to give you.
Regarding the forum's migration, the first two steps will be taking place this coming Monday (9/28). The forum will be taken offline, a final back-up will be performed and then the update will take place.
We don't have an exact time that the forum will be down, but we don't expect it to be longer than one day.
Once the back-up and update are complete, the forum will be online again we can begin to prepare for the migration to the new server. When this takes place, the forum will be offline again while the migration takes place. We are not sure when this will be, but will let you know when and how long.
Regarding the set up of the banking and PayPal accounts, they are both done. The account had to be opened in my name, because DCF doesn't have an actual EIN number. The PayPal account is set-up, and just needs to be confirmed. Once the confirmation takes place, we are able to accept donations. If you are unable or would prefer not to use PayPal, a check can always be mailed to me. Just contact me via PM, and I'll give you my mailing addresses. I have already received one donation this way.
We will be keeping a list of donations and donors, as basic recordkeeping, but this will remain private.
Monthly statements will be published for members to view.
Just as a reminder, there will be a cost for the back-up & update, and a cost for the migration. After that, the cost for keeping the forum up and running will be approximately $40.00 a month.
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Hello DCF members!
All three steps are finally done! We've been backed-up, we've been updated, and now we're officially migrated to our new server!
Also, after numerous tests, the PayPal account for sending donations to support the forum is up and running as well, which is good since it will soon be time to pay for the back-up, upgrade, and migration. After those are paid, the monthly fee to keep the forum up and running starts.
Step-by-step instructions for using PayPal to make a donation are below, but first:
At the bottom of the page is a box that says "Donate Via Paypal". DO NOT USE THAT BUTTON. If you do, funds will go to an inactive account, and we will have to work with PayPal to get your funds back.
Log into PayPal.com.
Once there, you'll see an icon of a monetary bill that says "pay or send money". If you click that, you'll see the option "Send Money to Friends or Family". Click that.
You'll then be taken to an page that asks for an email address and amount. Enter the email address that matches my username here. CellarDweller115@yahoo.com. Then the amount you want to send, and click "next".
You'll then get a screen that says: Send CellarDweller115@yahoo.com $X.XX, and click "Send". Once it's processed, you'll get a screen that says "you sent $X.XX to CellarDweller115@Yahoo.com"
Another option is to mail a check to me personally. If you choose that option (others already have) just send me a PM and I'll gladly give you my mailing address.
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I just wanted to share for those of you who aren't following the event topic.
(https://ultimatebrokebackforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi275.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fjj282%2FSanFranciscoJohn%2FDiana%2520Tucson_zpszzvdpy7y.jpg&hash=271b399f2386254bacc2195db2a06f791f88c56e) (http://s275.photobucket.com/user/SanFranciscoJohn/media/Diana%20Tucson_zpszzvdpy7y.jpg.html)
Message from Diana:
"Thank you all who came so far to see Brokeback on the big screen at The Loft. The 35 mm print was stunning. Larry and I both are deeply touched by how this film has affected each of you. And I am so lucky, so grateful, to have played a part in its long journey and introduction into your lives. And to each of you in this group and beyond, your stories, your lovely gifts, and the ways in which Brokeback has changed your lives mean more to me than any award ever could. Truly..."
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New Ultra HD Blu-ray disc scheduled to be introduced 1Q2016.
https://twitter.com/ultrahdbluray
I don't know if Universal plans to release Brokeback Mountain on
an Ultra HD Blu-ray disc (maybe an email campaign?).
Current DVD and Blu-ray discs store about 25% of the color range
the eye can see, Ultra HD Blu-ray discs (and compatible UHDTVs)
can store/display about 75% of the color range the eye can see.
IIRC, one of the bonus features videos on the USA DVD mentions
special attention to color selection in Brokeback Mountain.
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When "Brokeback Mountain" opened 10 years ago (on December 9, 2005), Hollywood's first mainstream gay love story was expected to change everything.
After all, it was a huge hit, won three Oscars, made serious adult thespians out of its young cast, and turned "I wish I knew how to quit you" into a catchphrase. In the decade since, however, Hollywood hasn't really followed up on the film's example, so fans hungry for such fare can only watch "Brokeback" over and over.
In honor of the movie's tenth anniversary, here are 10 things you probably didn't know about this landmark film.
http://www.moviefone.com/2015/12/08/brokeback-mountain-facts/ (http://www.moviefone.com/2015/12/08/brokeback-mountain-facts/)
Nothing new, guys. But still...
Is it really 10 years ago today?
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Yup, how time flies!!!
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We should celebrate! ;D
Another link. Have to say I don't know whether the article is any good - haven't read it yet. It's close to midnight here, so I'll read it tomorrow.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/brokeback-mountain-history-behind-the-scenes_5667c4eee4b080eddf562aef?p26xyldi&ncid=fcbklnkushpmg00000063 (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/brokeback-mountain-history-behind-the-scenes_5667c4eee4b080eddf562aef?p26xyldi&ncid=fcbklnkushpmg00000063)
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We should celebrate! ;D
Another link. Have to say I don't know whether the article is any good - haven't read it yet. It's close to midnight here, so I'll read it tomorrow.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/brokeback-mountain-history-behind-the-scenes_5667c4eee4b080eddf562aef?p26xyldi&ncid=fcbklnkushpmg00000063 (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/brokeback-mountain-history-behind-the-scenes_5667c4eee4b080eddf562aef?p26xyldi&ncid=fcbklnkushpmg00000063)
This is a great, great article. Great insights. I cried at this:
“He was very quiet,” said Roberta Maxwell, the actress who played Jack’s mother. “It was the last day, the last scene of a very long and hard, very difficult shoot.”
“We talked about it, and I said. ‘You know, when you find those shirts, what affects you so strongly is that you realize how much this man loved you,'” Ossana said. “‘When you find out he’s dead, it signals to you how much you really loved him. The love is so vast. When you find those shirts, you discover what you lost.’”
And I LOVED this:
The social landscape has changed immensely in the decade since. Americans have become more accepting of the LGBT community. The Supreme Court ruled in June that same-sex marriage is legal under the Constitution. Whether "Brokeback Mountain," a film about two gay cowboys, played any role in that shift really depends on who you ask.
“Well, I’m going to ask you a question,” said Maxwell, herself a gay woman. “Is anybody 10 years later doing an article about 'Crash'?”
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Yeah!
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I don't recall registering that Maxwell was/is a gay woman. I expect I was on Mars at the time. ;)
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I don't recall registering that Maxwell was/is a gay woman. I expect I was on Mars at the time. ;)
I must've been there with you. LOL. Caught me by surprise as well. 'Course, that would explain how she knew about Jack.
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
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http://www.lgbtqnation.com/2015/12/anecdotal-evidence-suggests-many-senior-citizens-are-huge-fans-of-brokeback-mountain/
Though your first instinct might be to assume that people in the 70+ range would have disapproved of the cowboy love story...
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Interesting article. Thanks lislis.
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I must've been there with you. LOL. Caught me by surprise as well. 'Course, that would explain how she knew about Jack.
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Well with a husband like Old Man Twist, I'd be a lesbian too! :D
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http://www.lgbtqnation.com/2015/12/anecdotal-evidence-suggests-many-senior-citizens-are-huge-fans-of-brokeback-mountain/
Though your first instinct might be to assume that people in the 70+ range would have disapproved of the cowboy love story...
Well, the 70+ crowd has seen a lot more of the world and a lot more of human nature, and a lot more of everything. I figured they would be the the ones to accept it the best.
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Brokeback Mountain Did Not Get Selected to the National Film Registry This Year
Films Selected for the 2015 National Film Registry
Being There (1979)
Black and Tan (1929)
Dracula (Spanish language version) (1931)
Dream of a Rarebit Fiend (1906)
Eadweard Muybridge, Zoopraxographer (1975)
Edison Kinetoscopic Record of a Sneeze (1894)
A Fool There Was (1915)
Ghostbusters (1984)
Hail the Conquering Hero (1944)
Humoresque (1920)
Imitation of Life (1959)
The Inner World of Aphasia (1968)
John Henry and the Inky-Poo (1946)
L.A. Confidential (1997)
The Mark of Zorro (1920)
The Old Mill (1937)
Our Daily Bread (1934)
Portrait of Jason (1967)
Seconds (1966)
The Shawshank Redemption (1994)
Sink or Swim (1990)
The Story of Menstruation (1946)
Symbiopsychotaxiplasm: Take One (1968)
Top Gun (1986)
Winchester ’73 (1950)
__________________________________________________
Why? Who knows.
Today's press release article:
http://www.loc.gov/today/pr/2015/15-216.html?loclr=ealn
Here's an article from Film Comment about the process:
Choosing The National Film Registry
by Daniel Eagan on December 11, 2015
http://www.filmcomment.com/blog/the-chosen-ones-the-national-film-registry/
Disappointing, but the good news, it's not a one and done thing, we can vote again for inclusion on next years list.
They now have an online nomination form:
From the site:
You may recommend up to 50 titles per year through our online nomination form.
Use of the online form is preferred; however, to submit via regular mail, send your nominations to:
National Film Registry
Library of Congress
Packard Campus for Audio Visual Conservation
19053 Mt. Pony Road
Culpeper, VA 22701
http://libraryofcongress.polldaddy.com/s/national-film-registry-nominations-2016
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So, its been 10 years since "Brokeback Mountain" (2005) was released. It is interesting to see how this film still resonates with people a decade later.
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http://gizmodo.com/author-of-brokeback-mountain-is-leaving-seattle-because-1780667698
High-fiving about technology seems terribly gauche to the Brits.
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She doesn't appear to enjoy staying anywhere very long.
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Yeah that was my thought as well. I just get the feeling that overall she is just not a happy person.
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There is a channel on YouTube called WatchMojo.com, and they use their channel to do interesting Top 10 countdowns. Top 10 scariest movies, Top 10 saddest TV sitcom moments, Top 10 Michael Jackson songs, things like that.
Recently came across Top 10 movies Too Upsetting To Watch Twice.
#9 - Brokeback Mountain - Gay cowboys, heartbreak, 10 gallon hats....are you not entertained? Movie goers filled theaters to watch Jake Gyllenhaal and Heath Ledger fall in love, but 134 minutes later they left speechless or in tears. Sometimes both. The line "I wish I knew how to quit you" has often been parodied over the years, but who can forget the raw emotion of the original screen delivery? Oh Brokeback, many did quit you, because we didn't want to go through that all over again.
I watched that, and then laughed, thinking of how many of us have seen it over and over. :laugh:
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But now I can't. :)
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There is a channel on YouTube called WatchMojo.com, and they use their channel to do interesting Top 10 countdowns. Top 10 scariest movies, Top 10 saddest TV sitcom moments, Top 10 Michael Jackson songs, things like that.
Recently came across Top 10 movies Too Upsetting To Watch Twice.
#9 - Brokeback Mountain - Gay cowboys, heartbreak, 10 gallon hats....are you not entertained? Movie goers filled theaters to watch Jake Gyllenhaal and Heath Ledger fall in love, but 134 minutes later they left speechless or in tears. Sometimes both. The line "I wish I knew how to quit you" has often been parodied over the years, but who can forget the raw emotion of the original screen delivery? Oh Brokeback, many did quit you, because we didn't want to go through that all over again.
I watched that, and then laughed, thinking of how many of us have seen it over and over. :laugh:
Some people don't like having their emotional strings pulled. I think that is why "Brokeback Mountain" still holds up, the emotional quality of the film is so strong. I think that the film left such a strong impact on people that the best way for many of them to deal with it probably was to make fun of it. An example would be the line of " I wish I knew how to quit you". It was so parodied at the time. Sure, you could laugh at the parodies, but if you had seen the film and were moved by it, I think that you realized how poignant that line really is.
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I'm sure this was posted / talked about earlier, as this episode of Charlie Rose aired over 10 years ago (December 7, 2005), but I just found it on YouTube and I had never seen it before, I think. Maybe others here haven't seen it as well.
It's Ang Lee and Heath Ledger, discussing the making of Brokeback.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qM5FO3hHEbk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qM5FO3hHEbk)
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I had not ever seen this, so thanks for posting it!
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thanks for the link, Sonja!
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I remember the night that aired and watching it. I taped it and still have
a copy of it. That's when the film was born to audiences and there was
that excitement of everyone discovering it and talking about it and finding
out something special had arrived! Thanks for the reminder!
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:)
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It was new to me. Very interesting. Thank you, Sonja!
(btw, you have an unusually beautiful name ;D)
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Not seen it until now... how did we miss that one? V.
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I've just lent the dvd of the film the other day to an older (even older :)) lesbian friend who'd tried it unsuccessfully before. Sadly, she informed me this evening that she'd watched it to the end but still didn't like it! We were in church at the time and I haven't yet found out why, but will try to do so.
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It was new to me. Very interesting. Thank you, Sonja!
(btw, you have an unusually beautiful name ;D)
If only you had a name like that...
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It was new to me. Very interesting. Thank you, Sonja!
(btw, you have an unusually beautiful name ;D)
:laugh: You too, Sonja!
Not seen it until now... how did we miss that one? V.
I was thinking... I had seen it before. On the Charlie Rose website, which I visited while searching for something else. Maybe a stand-alone website is generally less "visible" (accessible) than YouTube, unless you search for something specific. I'm sure there are many more videos we haven't seen. If only we'd know where to find them... ;)
Ultimately, I'm amazed (and happy) that there's still so much material available online!
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I've just lent the dvd of the film the other day to an older (even older :)) lesbian friend who'd tried it unsuccessfully before. Sadly, she informed me this evening that she'd watched it to the end but still didn't like it!
Being lesbian or gay doesn't automatically mean that you'll like a gay (themed) movie. I have gay friends who also don't like it. I have other (straight) friends who do like it. It depends on the kind of person, your mindset and where you are in your life, I suppose.
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The Charlie Rose video was very good. I had not seen it originally.
Too true about BBM. My friend Michael was so so about it, and others said it was OK.
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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3679510/There-just-SIX-plots-film-book-TV-Researchers-reveal-building-blocks-storytelling.html
Steady fall: 'Romeo and Juliet', 'The House of the Vampire', 'Savrola' and 'The Dance'.
It'd be interesting to run all the versions of Brokeback Mountain
through this analysis.
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I thought I had seen all the interviews with Heath in....but never seen this one before. Hundreds times "thanks " jeannie.
That bloody guitar music....gets me every time :'(
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Being lesbian or gay doesn't automatically mean that you'll like a gay (themed) movie. I have gay friends who also don't like it. I have other (straight) friends who do like it. It depends on the kind of person, your mindset and where you are in your life, I suppose.
Well said, BlueJeanJeannie. I am not LGBT, and there have been some LGBT-themed films that I have liked and some that I haven't liked. Most don't have a lot of appeal to me. Not every LGBT person likes or is going to like " Brokeback Mountain" (2005). It depends on what you find to be interesting. Not every heterosexual or cisgender person likes or is going to like "Brokeback Mountain" either, but of course that doesn't automatically mean that they are prejudiced towards or hate LGBT people. Most people that I know who saw the film,they liked it and thought that it was a well-made movie, but they weren't as strongly impacted by "Brokeback Mountain" as some people were. Everyone is going to react to the film differently. How many people who were impacted by the film could have predicted that they would have liked it so much? If you could have predicted what your reaction to the film would have been, you may have been disappointed. The people who were the most strongly impacted by the film, their stories have always been the most interesting to me and I think that there are more of them than meets the eye. It is interesting how a single film can make you think and feel about life. It is a very rare, but special thing.
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I'm sure this was posted / talked about earlier, as this episode of Charlie Rose aired over 10 years ago (December 7, 2005), but I just found it on YouTube and I had never seen it before, I think. Maybe others here haven't seen it as well.
It's Ang Lee and Heath Ledger, discussing the making of Brokeback.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qM5FO3hHEbk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qM5FO3hHEbk)
I just watched this all the way thru. Quite informative. Recommended. V.
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Charlie Rose was on Stephen Colbert last night and it was mentioned his website
had put a lot of shows on it to watch and my impression was that this availability
was something new. This episode has been old news to me for so long as I had
watched it the night it aired and copied it, that I just thought it was pretty common
knowledge. I'm glad so many have discovered this. To me it always reminds me of
how fresh and new the film was and the excitement and discovery of this film, both
personally and then worldwide. It was all in the air for a good long time!
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To me it always reminds me of how fresh and new the film was and the excitement and discovery of this film [...]
I wasn't around at that time, but you're right, the excitement over the impact of the film is clear.
After all this time, it's obvious the "newness" has slipped away, even on this forum - which sometimes makes me sad. But I feel the film now exists in its own timelessness, for many reasons. That's why this conversation with Ang and Heath is still worth watching - and also because Heath is no longer with us.
I thought I had seen all the interviews with Heath in....but never seen this one before. Hundreds times "thanks " jeannie.
I'm glad you liked it, Sue. It's special to see Heath talk about it, I think. How wonderful would it be if we could've had commentary sections on the DVD, for instance. Not just from Ang, Heath and Jake (and possibly Michelle and Anne), but also from Larry and Diana. They could've given us new insights on what the filming was like. The Special Features section we do have, seems a bit casual, if that's the right word. I had hoped for a "10 Year Anniversary Edition", but unfortunately...
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I wasn't around at that time, but you're right, the excitement over the impact of the film is clear.
After all this time, it's obvious the "newness" has slipped away, even on this forum - which sometimes makes me sad. But I feel the film now exists in its own timelessness, for many reasons. That's why this conversation with Ang and Heath is still worth watching - and also because Heath is no longer with us.
Yes, I know what you mean, Sonja. There is always something, a snippet of a song, a photograph, a scene in real life, that transports me back to how it was at the beginning, even if it is just for a moment. I would love to be able to hold on to those new feelings from back then, but unfortunately real life happens and things change. But I always hold those feelings and times in my heart and mind, and in the quiet times, usually right before I go to sleep I am transported back there and I smile and remember. I'd like to think this is what got Jack and Ennis through all those years between meetings. ♥
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I'd like to think this is what got Jack and Ennis through all those years between meetings. ♥
Undoubtedly! :) :)
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;D
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Yes, I know what you mean, Sonja. There is always something, a snippet of a song, a photograph, a scene in real life, that transports me back to how it was at the beginning, even if it is just for a moment. I would love to be able to hold on to those new feelings from back then, but unfortunately real life happens and things change. But I always hold those feelings and times in my heart and mind, and in the quiet times, usually right before I go to sleep I am transported back there and I smile and remember. I'd like to think this is what got Jack and Ennis through all those years between meetings. ♥
I agree, but at the end of the day, I would have to tell myself that Ennis and Jack are not real people after I first saw the film They never were real people and they will never be real people. I sometimes still have to tell myself that. I do keep in mind that there are LGBT people who have had, do have and will have experiences that are similar to Ennis Del Mar and Jack Twist. It is unique and somewhat odd how the characters in "Brokeback Mountain" (2005) can have such an effect on you to the point that they seem as if they were real people, but that is due to good writing and good filmmaking. Literature and films tend to reflect real life experiences and feelings that human beings have and we incorporate them into media formats to tell stories, some of these stories are quite true, mostly exaggerated or are entirely fictitious.
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Even though I have never read the short story, I am sure that Annie Proulx must have based aspects of Ennis and Jack's personalities on real people that she knew. I'm guessing that she took inspiration from certain actual places and incidents, and was able to incorporate them into the story. You know, some people thought that the murder of Matthew Shepard had inspired her to write the story, but it was written and published shortly before Shepard's death. I believe that she had lived in a part of Wyoming that was very close to where Matthew Shepard's murder took place at the time that she was writing the short story.
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PEDRO ALMODOVAR'S "Brokeback Mountain" ?
Ennis Del Mark alerted me to a link that has a new interview with Pedro Almodovar where he discusses (briefly) what
his film version of Brokeback Mountain would have been like:
***
<<< Almodóvar was originally attached to the project before Lee came on board. In an interview with The Empire Film Podcast, Almodóvar was asked how his version of Brokeback would have differed from Lee’s. He explained immediately: “More sex, more sex.”
He explained, “And it’s not gratuitous. The Annie Proulx story is about a physical relation, an animal relation, so sex is necessary because it is the body of the story. I always had the image–I mean, these two guys start making love to each other like the animals that they were taking care of. Against the cold…yes, a way to survive in the mountains.” Almodóvar added, “In the end they discovered it was something else and they were surprised. It was like a big accident. The [physical] part. It is about that. “ >>>
***
Although many viewers of Ang Lee's film would have liked more sex, I don't know myself what Almodovar would have done with this film.
Supposedly, it would've been with the same script, I assume.
Also, has anyone else ever heard that Pedro Almodovar was offered to direct this film? We have heard that Gus Van Sant was
attached to it at one time, but I'd never heard that Almodovar was, I don't think. Surely Diana Ossana might have mentioned it...?
What do you guys think of this?
Read the article Mark alerted me to:
http://www.towleroad.com/2016/08/pedro-almodovar-brokeback/
Here's a another link about it:
http://www.indiewire.com/2016/08/pedro-almodovar-brokeback-mountain-sex-1201719596/
The interview can be heard from links included on both articles.
D I S C U S S !!!
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I can only speak for myself, and at this point, I don't think the movie needed more sex.
While I can understand why other people would disagree, for me, I was more interested in the development of the relationship between the two of them, than the amount of times they had sex.
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I think that the sex in the short story was the opposite of gratuitous. I feel quite strongly that the sex scenes are very carefully written and everyting we're told in them has bearing on the plot and characters. (Ennis flipping Alma is just one obvious example). Now that didn't happen with Ang Lee, and it looks like it wouldn't happen with Pedro Almodovar. Maybe it can't - maybe that just doesn't translate to film.
Having said that, I love Almodovar's other films. It would have been interesting to see what he did with, and I think it would have been different to Ang Lee. I was a fan of both directors before Brokeback so either would have been a pull for me to see the film, if I wasn't determined to see it anyway!
I hadn't heard that he was offered it either.
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More sex would have diminished the deep visceral impact of the film. More sex would have certainly decreased the willingness of the American public to give the film any chance in the main stream theaters. More sex would have given the right-wing bats even more fodder - remember, the explicit scenes we have of Jack and Ennis were troubling enough to a naive public even with Lee's very dark lighting. Less delivered more here, much, much more. V.
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Somehow I feel that if there were more sex scenes the impact of the film would have been
lessened because this story is about two guys that can't be together like they want to. What
receptive audiences start to want is for the two guys to get together and be happy. Since the
audience wants that, the less of it there is makes us want it all the more and we start feeling
the pain of the situation as much as they do. I hope I explained what I had in mind well enough.
Oh, duh, I guess Vincent said that, too, only more succinctly: "More sex would have diminished the deep visceral impact of the film."
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Somehow I feel that if there were more sex scenes the impact of the film would have been
lessened because this story is about two guys that can't be together like they want to. What
receptive audiences start to want is for the two guys to get together and be happy.
Exactly. It would have been a totally different film. I would've liked to see more... what's the right word? Intimacy. Yes, that's it. Intimacy and between Jack and Ennis - that's so much more precious than sex. I can't imagine having to watch a sex scene right before Jack whispers his tender "Old Brokeback got us good" to Ennis.
Mind you, I did focus on FNIT quite a lot at first, after I had first seen BBM ::) ;D , but right now? If I'd like more sex for them, I might just as well read some slash. I used to read quite a lot of slash several years ago, but... I don't know. I don't need it that much anymore - the film by itself is enough for me.
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John posted the link to the article on FB.
Here's what Diana commented:
Diana Ossana This is actually true - one of the few true statements made about the BBM history - Larry and I visited Pedro at his home in California to talk to him about directing the script we had optioned and written. His take on the story was more about sex and less about love and homophobia. We left knowing it wouldn't work.
Diana Ossana Ang shot the script exactly as it was written. Pedro would have taken it and changed it radically - that's his style. He writes his movies.
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^^^
Intimacy.....few more whispered tender words that we could *hear.* !....and more gentle caresses. No not sex...... but a touch of the face....a stroke on the nape of the neck Not only the one that Jack gave Ennis . Just "intimacy"...you know ?
:)
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Interesting, Sason, thanks for the info.
Diana has said she's got a whole diary of information and wants to publish it in some fashion some day.
I'll read it! It will be like movie commentary in book form!
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Intimacy.....few more whispered tender words that we could *hear.* !....and more gentle caresses.
*nods* :)
That's interesting, Sonja. Thanks!
Diana has said she's got a whole diary of information and wants to publish it in some fashion some day.
I'll read it! It will be like movie commentary in book form!
There's lots we don't know yet, I'm sure.
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Interesting, Sason, thanks for the info.
Diana has said she's got a whole diary of information and wants to publish it in some fashion some day.
I'll read it! It will be like movie commentary in book form!
I do hope she will.
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I think I may be slightly disagreeing with the majority about wishing for a little more sex in the film. (This is partly copied from what I wrote in Facebook.)
I wouldn't have wanted a lot of sex, but I do think the film slightly loses its way in the central section, where the emphasis is so much on their family lives - which did of course occupy most of Jack and Ennis's time. And yet there is no depiction at all of the "brilliant charge" of their couplings. Yes, they were infrequent, but they still occurred many times over the years, and we are never shown this, even at their last meeting where the expression is used in the story - even though these too brief interludes were the focus of their existences.
No need for explicitness, and I agree about wanting the tender side of it to be shown (we do have the nice sleeping scene at the last meeting), but the sex was happening, year after year, and yet after SNIT and the reunion... nothing.
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I understand what you're saying, Sara. And you're right about the way Jack and Ennis were too much like "fishing buddies" in the latter part of the film. But...
More sex would have certainly decreased the willingness of the American public to give the film any chance in the main stream theaters.
... and the film would've suffered even more from the "gay cowboy movie" stigma than it already had / has.
I'm able to rely on my imagination for what happens at SNIT - the things we don't get to see, I mean. No need to throw it all out there on the big screen.
I found this link as well. It has several readers' comments from 2 years ago (!!!):
http://www.cinemablend.com/new/Why-List-Director-Said-Brokeback-Mountain-69007.html (http://www.cinemablend.com/new/Why-List-Director-Said-Brokeback-Mountain-69007.html)
One comment says: "Making it sexy would have demonstrated a deaf ear for the era and region where the story is set."
Hmm. Good point.
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Interesting, Sason, thanks for the info.
Diana has said she's got a whole diary of information and wants to publish it in some fashion some day.
I'll read it! It will be like movie commentary in book form!
You're welcome, Lyle.
Yes, she mentioned it when we met her in Tucson last year. We told her we're eagerly awaiting!
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*nods* :)
That's interesting, Sonja. Thanks!
There's lots we don't know yet, I'm sure.
Let's hope she will let us in on all this information. I'm sure we will get to know more in the future. Sooner....rather than later !!
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I think I may be slightly disagreeing with the majority about wishing for a little more sex in the film. (This is partly copied from what I wrote in Facebook.)
I wouldn't have wanted a lot of sex, but I do think the film slightly loses its way in the central section, where the emphasis is so much on their family lives - which did of course occupy most of Jack and Ennis's time. And yet there is no depiction at all of the "brilliant charge" of their couplings. Yes, they were infrequent, but they still occurred many times over the years, and we are never shown this, even at their last meeting where the expression is used in the story - even though these too brief interludes were the focus of their existences.
No need for explicitness, and I agree about wanting the tender side of it to be shown (we do have the nice sleeping scene at the last meeting), but the sex was happening, year after year, and yet after SNIT and the reunion... nothing.
I agree with you, Sara. Sure, we have FNIT and SNIT and the reunion scenes, then, bupkis. The very last night in the tent was a wasted opportunity, in my opinion. Spooning? That's all? Something a bit more intimate is suggested by the story:
The horses nickered in the darkness beyond the fire's circle of light. Ennis put his arm around Jack, pulled him close, said he saw his girls about once a month, Alma Jr. a shy seventeen-year-old with his beanpole length, Francine a little live wire. Jack slid his cold hand between Ennis's legs, said he was worried about his boy who was, no doubt about it, dyslexic or something, couldn't get anything right, fifteen years old and couldn't hardly read, he could see it though goddamn Lureen wouldn't admit to it and pretended the kid was o.k., refused to get any bitchin kind a help about it. He didn't know what the fuck the answer was. Lureen had the money and called the shots.
"I used a want a boy for a kid," said Ennis, undoing buttons, "but just got little girls."
"I didn't want none a either kind," said Jack. "But fuck-all has worked the way I wanted. Nothin never come to my hand the right way." Without getting up he threw deadwood on the fire, the sparks flying up with their truths and lies, a few hot points of fire landing on their hands and faces, not for the first time, and they rolled down into the dirt. One thing never changed: the brilliant charge of their infrequent couplings was darkened by the sense of time flying, never enough time, never enough.
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Yes to all that, Paul - there's nothing in the film to match up with this passage.
(I was starting to think I must be unduly preoccupied with sex :">)
-
Yes to all that, Paul - there's nothing in the film to match up with this passage.
(I was starting to think I must be unduly preoccupied with sex :">)
Not at all Sara ! I really believe (if truth be known ;)) we would all have loved to see out boys showing their love for each other... more than what we got to see....in someway or "another" !. All in the best possible taste of course !!
-
(I was starting to think I must be unduly preoccupied with sex :">)
:laugh: :laugh:
Aren't we all? In the case of Jack and Ennis of course ::)
-
I personally think that the few sex and intimate scenes that are in the film are just fine. I do think that sexual repression is a major theme in the film, so it would be understandable in a way as to why there are so few scenes of the men being intimate with each other. Ennis and Jack both live in two different States, they both have to work very hard to earn a living and cannot be away from their jobs for too long. The limited amount of sex scenes between the two men leaves any other sexual encounters they would have had with each other up to your imagination. I do think that had the film been more sexual, it probably would have scared some people away and the film probably would have suffered from even more stigmatization as "the gay cowboy movie" than what it did. Some people could have dismissed it as being an overly sexual and more of an erotic film than a romantic drama. To me, less is more.
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I have never read the short story, but when it comes to the references to the sexual relationship between Ennis and Jack just like other aspects of the story, of course there were going to be changes. Film and literature are two different formats entirely. I heard that Annie Proulx was very happy with the film and seemed to think that it followed her award-winning short story quite closely. It took 8 years for the film to finally be made after trying searching for a director that the producers hoped could do a good job with the film. I believe that the script to "Brokeback Mountain" (2005) was considered as being one of the greatest unproduced scripts in Hollywood before the movie was actually filmed.
I think it is a lucky thing that the film was even made at all. The cast and crew of "Brokeback Mountain" had no clue as to how people would respond to the film and seemed to just hope that people would be willing to pay to see in at a movie theater. When the film's theatrical release to place between 2005 and 2006, "Brokeback Mountain" was positively received by film critics and moviegoers. The film was financially successful at the box-office worldwide. It became a pop culture phenomenon, it was nominated for and won quite a few awards from very film festivals and organizations around the world, caused a little bit of controversy, was considered as being groundbreaking for dealing with a same-sex love story on its own merits. It moved people and possibly got them to think a little deeper about the themes and concepts that were presented in the film.
Almost 11 years later since the film's theatrical release took place, I have no doubt that other LGBT-themed theatrical films that have been released over the years have somewhat been inspired by "Brokeback Mountain", but I don't think that any of them have had the same kind of success that "Brokeback Mountain" managed to achieve. "Brokeback Mountain" was a unique and rare experience. I think that it is just a very good piece of filmmaking.
-
Yeap! The stars aligned....literally for the making of BBM. :) V.
-
Excerpt from an interview with David Harbour, who played Randall in BBM:
Tell me about Brokeback Mountain and the choices you made for your character —Jake Gyllenhaal’s other love interest.
"I remember being sent that script and meeting Ang [Lee, the director] and feeling like it was a really beautiful movie that at the end of the day is about love. For my character, I thought about having a secret that could threaten to destroy your world, something that with these guys was so shameful, but so necessary to their reality they couldn’t deny it. It’s almost like grass shooting through a sidewalk —our nature comes through."
Heath and Jake’s characters enjoy a lengthy courtship before they ever get involved physically, but you have one tiny, brief window of opportunity on a park bench to seduce Jake.
"Before that scene happens, there's a scene in the dance where we kind of lock eyes at one point and he goes off and dances with my wife [Anna Faris]. And even just in that moment, you’re right — there is so much that has to be unsaid. I mean, the first thing he talks about is how his wife won’t shut up. These guys are so trapped —and they both sense that in each other. They feel that they can be understood."
At the time, did you all realize that it was destined to become an LGBT classic love story?
"I remember when we were making it that there were a lot of late-night talk shows making jokes about it. Which I wasn’t really keen on. People underestimated it. When I read the script and when we were shooting, I thought that it was very special and that the world would really appreciate it. And I was right. It’s a movie I am very proud of."
http://www.out.com/popnography/2016/8/31/exclusive-stranger-things-david-harbour-seducing-jake-gyllenhaal-fighting (http://www.out.com/popnography/2016/8/31/exclusive-stranger-things-david-harbour-seducing-jake-gyllenhaal-fighting)
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^^^^^^
Nice to hear another (new) perspective! Thank you!
-
You're welcome, Lyle :)
We tend to focus on Jake, Michelle and Anne (and Heath of course), because they were the leads - but it's good to know that someone who played a smaller role in the movie is also proud to be part of it.
I wonder how Randy Quaid feels... :P ::)
-
Or Anna Faris, who is mostly known for comedic roles. (Not that Lashawn wasn't...)
-
Thanks for the post, Sonja!
-
This is just an oddity to mention.
I was looking on a Wyoming centric website at an article titled,
"The Top 5 Movies Filmed in Wyoming."
At the end of the article were some notations about other films
not on the list, and there was this:
"Although it was primarily filmed in Alaska, Brokeback Mountain
was based in Wyoming and a handful of scenes were shot here."
WRONG on two counts!
http://kingfm.com/the-top-5-movies-filmed-in-wyoming/
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Or Anna Faris, who is mostly known for comedic roles. (Not that Lashawn wasn't...)
Yes!
Thanks for the post, Sonja!
:)
-
WRONG on two counts!
I wanted to leave a comment, but I didn't see a space to.
-
Excerpt from an interview with David Harbour, who played Randall in BBM:
Tell me about Brokeback Mountain and the choices you made for your character —Jake Gyllenhaal’s other love interest.
"I remember being sent that script and meeting Ang [Lee, the director] and feeling like it was a really beautiful movie that at the end of the day is about love. For my character, I thought about having a secret that could threaten to destroy your world, something that with these guys was so shameful, but so necessary to their reality they couldn’t deny it. It’s almost like grass shooting through a sidewalk —our nature comes through."
Heath and Jake’s characters enjoy a lengthy courtship before they ever get involved physically, but you have one tiny, brief window of opportunity on a park bench to seduce Jake.
"Before that scene happens, there's a scene in the dance where we kind of lock eyes at one point and he goes off and dances with my wife [Anna Faris]. And even just in that moment, you’re right — there is so much that has to be unsaid. I mean, the first thing he talks about is how his wife won’t shut up. These guys are so trapped —and they both sense that in each other. They feel that they can be understood."
At the time, did you all realize that it was destined to become an LGBT classic love story?
"I remember when we were making it that there were a lot of late-night talk shows making jokes about it. Which I wasn’t really keen on. People underestimated it. When I read the script and when we were shooting, I thought that it was very special and that the world would really appreciate it. And I was right. It’s a movie I am very proud of."
http://www.out.com/popnography/2016/8/31/exclusive-stranger-things-david-harbour-seducing-jake-gyllenhaal-fighting (http://www.out.com/popnography/2016/8/31/exclusive-stranger-things-david-harbour-seducing-jake-gyllenhaal-fighting)
This is interesting. I think that may be one reason why Randall was attracted to Jack, because they both were pretending to be something they weren't. However, I think that Jack probably knew that he could never truly love Randall in the way that he loved Ennis. I don't think that a relationship between Jack and Randall would have really worked. I think that Jack would have become miserable without Ennis, and I think that Randall would also have become miserable because he would have sensed that Jack wasn't truly happy with him.
-
This is just an oddity to mention.
I was looking on a Wyoming centric website at an article titled,
"The Top 5 Movies Filmed in Wyoming."
At the end of the article were some notations about other films
not on the list, and there was this:
"Although it was primarily filmed in Alaska, Brokeback Mountain
was based in Wyoming and a handful of scenes were shot here."
WRONG on two counts!
http://kingfm.com/the-top-5-movies-filmed-in-wyoming/
Well some of the story takes place in Wyoming, I can say that. It is interesting, I think, that at least "Brokeback Mountain" (2005) was mentioned, even if they got their facts about where the movie was filmed wrong.
-
This is just an oddity to mention.
I was looking on a Wyoming centric website at an article titled,
"The Top 5 Movies Filmed in Wyoming."
At the end of the article were some notations about other films
not on the list, and there was this:
"Although it was primarily filmed in Alaska, Brokeback Mountain
was based in Wyoming and a handful of scenes were shot here."
WRONG on two counts!
http://kingfm.com/the-top-5-movies-filmed-in-wyoming/
How strange!!
That means I've been to Alaska three times, visiting the movie sites, without even knowing it! Here I thought I was in Alberta the whole time!! ::)
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Well some of the story takes place in Wyoming, I can say that.
Do you have data on that?
-
I'm pretty sure that the some of the places in "Brokeback Mountain" (2005) are supposed to be located in Wyoming, even though the movie was filmed in what I think was Canada. Was any of the movie filmed in Alaska or Wyoming? Maybe certain scenes were filmed there, I guess. I really don't know. I think that Michelle Williams went to some of the actual places that are mentioned in the short story and the film with the film's dialect coach before the movie was shot.
-
Do you have data on that?
;D
-
You're welcome, Lyle :)
We tend to focus on Jake, Michelle and Anne (and Heath of course), because they were the leads - but it's good to know that someone who played a smaller role in the movie is also proud to be part of it.
I wonder how Randy Quaid feels... :P ::)
It would be interesting to hear what some of the other cast members besides Jake, Michelle and Anne have to say about "Brokeback Mountain" after all these years.
-
How strange!!
That means I've been to Alaska three times, visiting the movie sites, without even knowing it! Here I thought I was in Alberta the whole time!! ::)
**WHAT** ?? !!! :o
This means I wasted nearly £7,000 going to Alberta four years ago >:( >:(
:laugh: :laugh:
-
LOL Suely! ;D
-
^^^
I demand a refund !!!
:laugh:
-
:laugh:
-
19 years ago today:
"On October 13, 1997, The New Yorker published a short story by Annie Proulx. "Brokeback Mountain" would go on to become not only a watershed moment in queer literature, but in queer cinema as well—Larry McMurtry and Diana Ossana adapted the short story into a 2005 film directed by Ang Lee, starring Heath Ledger and Jake Gyllenhaal as star-crossed lovers Ennis del Mar and Jack Twist."
http://www.out.com/today-gay-history/2016/10/13/brokeback-mountain-was-published-today-1997 (http://www.out.com/today-gay-history/2016/10/13/brokeback-mountain-was-published-today-1997)
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Applause applause!!! ;D
-
Yay!
-
*Cheers.....applause....more cheers*
:D
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What a life changing anniversary ... V.
-
:)
-
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-38079959
Milestone 3: "Brokeback Mountain", 2005
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Hello members!!!! The Admin/Mod/Tech team is coming to you with news for the new year.
When this forum was originally founded, it was under the URL we all know, www.DaveCullen.com, however, it was often referred to as the "Ultimate Brokeback Forum". Dave's website had a link to the forum, and the two entities were joined as one.
For a host of technical reasons beyond Dave’s technical ability, he needs to turn his website over to a service that can handle much of the work—and it can’t support the massive forum database. Dave really wants the forum to proceed, so the solution is simple: just split Dave’s personal pages and the forum to two separate web addresses. Everything else remains the same.
To continue to follow Dave Cullen, you can use the existing address, www.DaveCullen.com .
To access the Ultimate Brokeback Forum, you will need to bookmark this new address: https://www.UltimateBrokebackForum.com/forum.
We expect this change to take place within a week's time, and there should be no major disruption to the forum. While the UBF will no longer be linked to DCF, Dave Cullen will retain his ownership of both sites.
Please continue to watch the threads/newsbox for further updates! We will attempt to give you all 24 hours notice before the change takes place. However, you should make note of the new address now. If you try to log in at the old address and you are unable to, try to use the new address. Thanks for your continued participation in this community!
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https://m.facebook.com/JakeGyllenhaal
^^^
This probably old news.
I don't know if this is operated on
behalf of Jake or if Jake set it up.
-
Long time since I have posted -- BBM came to me in a dream the other night. In fact, Jack Twist came to me in a dream the other night, although it wasn't the cans of beans and the spoon sticking out---
It was like this --
In my dream, Jack was trying to get on with his life, but he was in emotional pain (fuck-all was going well, that is to say, nothing was going well) He was married to Lureen and he could not recover from --
The fact that Ennis had died.
So in my dream this was the scenario. Something had happened to Ennis. Jack was the one who had heard the news and was shocked.
Jack had been living a provisional life anyway, ever since he married Lureen, and (presuming no-quit) he thought he would see Ennis again, but -- nope. No more Ennis.
I know there have been discussions about whether or not Jack would have fared better than Ennis if this had happened. But in my dream there wasn't any time for him to think -- "hey I am more in touch with my real feelings than Ennis ever was, I will finally be able to 'quit' him -- since I have no choice -- and maybe be better off. Maybe one day get out of this marriage, because Lureen might be happy to see my backside -- maybe one day come out of the closet, who knows."
In my dream Jack was not analyzing any of this, he was reacting from raw pain, much like Ennis when he first left Jack after they came down from Brokeback. The Jack in my dream was rudderless, acting from pain, unable to tell Lureen or anyone close, and there wasn't anyone close, there was no Ennis.
There probably would be a future for this Jack, but in my dream he was in the moment, and he was in pain, and as long as he was in pain you could see he was only digging his hole of anguish deeper. What could he do? Nothing. Rash action -- leaving Lureen, even going to Mexico -- would not help. He would have been better off doing nothing -- but he couldn't seem to be still.
***
So that is it -- I was surprised to see Jack Twist in my dream but also not surprised, since BBM has loomed so large in my life and probably A Proulx achieved archetypal levels of myth in this story. Thanks for listening, possibly understanding.
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Wow...very interesting dream. Some aspects a complete reversal of what we know, while others seemed to remain the same.
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Hey Ellen,
Your dream is so sad... Actually as sad as Jack dying, too! Because
The Jack in my dream was rudderless, acting from pain, unable to tell Lureen or anyone close, and there wasn't anyone close, there was no Ennis.
- same can be said about Ennis after Jack's death. It doesn't matter who of them dies...
What do you think would be Jack's future in your dream? Do you think he would be more suicidal than Ennis? At least we know that Ennis probably lived on for his girls, but as far as Jack is concerned, apparently he did not consider Bobby as somebody worth living for. What are your thoughts?
-
Personally, I have never read the short story and I have never seen the Spanish or English versions of the stage opera, but as far as Jack is portrayed in the film. I think that he did love Bobby, but his love for Ennis was very strong. Even if he and Ennis had gotten a place of their own, I still don't think that either man would have entirely abandoned their children. Perhaps Jack wasn't the most accomplished parent, it can implied in the film that he didn't have very close relationship with his own father.
Bobby's role in the film is very brief, so the viewer doesn't know too much about him. I do think that L.D. Newsome was somewhat of an influence on him. Bobby seems like the kind of kid who might have gone his own way as he got older. I think Jack probably wanted to be a better father to his son than John Twist was to Jack, but perhaps Jack just didn't know exactly how to go about it.
-
I think Jack probably wanted to be a better father to his son than John Twist was to Jack, but perhaps Jack just didn't know exactly how to go about it.
Yes, i agree with this. He did not have any role models for good dads, i guess. It also fits into my understanding of Jack's character that he was very much insecure about himself and about how he should tackle different things (Ennis / Bobby / LD / his father / bull riding). In a way he was stuck himself similarly to Ennis, but in different ways.
-
Personally, I have never read the short story
If you're having difficulty finding the short story, B.W., here is its original appearance in the New Yorker. The (quite important) short prologue somehow got missed off, but I can send you that if you like.
I love the illustration.
http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/1997/10/13/brokeback-mountain (http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/1997/10/13/brokeback-mountain)
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Hey Ellen,
Your dream is so sad... Actually as sad as Jack dying, too! Because- same can be said about Ennis after Jack's death. It doesn't matter who of them dies...
What do you think would be Jack's future in your dream? Do you think he would be more suicidal than Ennis? At least we know that Ennis probably lived on for his girls, but as far as Jack is concerned, apparently he did not consider Bobby as somebody worth living for. What are your thoughts?
Hi BJ -- In my dream the feeling I had was that Jack was self-destructive. He didn't want to be, he wanted to get out of the pain, but he couldn't seem to. You had the feeling that if only he could be still for a while maybe he would get through the worst of it, but he seemed to be compelled to hurl himself into situations hurting himself and other people.
--If I had thought of this scenario in waking hours, I don't know if I would have imagined Jack that way, but now that I've seen it in my dream I can't think of it any other way. The Jack in my dreams was not going to make it for long, unless there could have been some intervention, or maybe a near death experience -- where he would have to be laid up for a while.
-
Hi, Ellen! :o
-
I bought and downloaded the movie from Amazon last night and watched it for the first time in I don't know how many years...I made it all the way to the moment Jack's mother puts the shirts in the bag...but I had kleenex nearby.
When Jack & Bobby are riding in the combine in the parking lot, for the first time I saw the plane in the sky...that's the only new thing I noticed...it's still perfect to me...I hope they never do a remake, as has been rumored...
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Hi, Ellen! :o
Hi Lyle!
-
Guys,
I still have some issues with the movie and the book that bother me / which i am not clear about till today. If anybody can share his / her thoughts on the following it would be great!
So, first issue.
In the short story (at the beginning) where it says about Ennis having had a dream of Jack, it says "... lets a panel of the dream slide forward. If he does not force his attention on it, it might stoke the day, rewarm that old,...". English being not my mother-tongue, this sentence seems to be contradictory. Does this mean that Ennis does *not* want the dream to "stoke the day, rewarm that old...", so he forces his attention on it by sliding a panel of the dream forward? Mm?
For me it's an important part telling us how Ennis is feeling about Jack and the fact that he's forever gone (of which we don't have much in the story) and it just does not make sense to me...
Any thoughts / explanations?
-
BJ, my understanding of it is that if Ennis tries to concentrate on the dream it will elude him, but by just being aware that he has dreamed of Jack, or by allowing a brief flash of a scene from it, the warmth and sense of pleasure may remain with him during the day.
-
mmm...
Sara, why do you think will the dream elude him if Ennis concentrates his attention on it?
-
You know, i now come to think that maybe
a) the dream was not all good, so Ennis allows himself to slide only that one (positive) panel of the dream to slide forward? or
b) if he thinks too much on the dream (even the positive part of it) that all the negative stuff will inevitably come up, too?
Wha'dya think?
-
mmm...
Sara, why do you think will the dream elude him if Ennis concentrates his attention on it?
Because that's what dreams can do when you try to recall them the next day!
-
You know, i now come to think that maybe
a) the dream was not all good, so Ennis allows himself to slide only that one (positive) panel of the dream to slide forward? or
b) if he thinks too much on the dream (even the positive part of it) that all the negative stuff will inevitably come up, too?
Wha'dya think?
No, I don't think I feel that :); my feeling is that it's real life that is pretty bleak, but that this dream of Jack really does make him "suffused with a sense of pleasure," even if other mornings we know from the second last paragraph of the story that "he would wake sometimes with grief, sometimes with the old sense of joy and release..."
(I'm enjoying being encouraged to think about it all again!)
-
He's out of a job and he might have to live with his daughter...two pretty bad things to deal with, but the dream of Jack gives him pleasure, even with all the stuff going on in his life.
He might have to stay with his married daughter until he picks up another job, yet he is suffused with a sense of pleasure because Jack Twist was in his dream.
I think AP meant to show that his dreams of Jack were the only things Ennis had to look forward to...as Sara said, if he concentrates on it too hard, it might slip away from him...but he goes through his normal routine: pours his coffee, blows on it, doesn't "force his attention on it" and is able remember a part of it...a panel...that much didn't slip away. He can go back in time to that "old, cold time on the mountain when they owned the world and nothing seemed wrong."
Again, I agree with Sara...even the second to the last paragraph shows that it didn't matter if the dream was joyous or sorrowful...at least he had the memories, the remnants of dreams of that best time of all in his life.
"And he would wake sometimes in grief, sometimes with the old sense of joy and release; the pillow sometimes wet, sometimes the sheets."
-
Thanks for the posts here. I love reading what the members think, and it makes me remember the book and movie.
-
"And he would wake sometimes in grief, sometimes with the old sense of joy and release; the pillow sometimes wet, sometimes the sheets."
Apart from the description of the DE, that ^^^ is one of my favorite sentences in the short story.
-
It's beautiful, isn't it, Sonja? The emotions and the phrases perfectly balanced.
-
Soooo, next issue, BJ? :D
Or more on this one would be fine!
-
Yes, please keep it going!
-
Discussions like this make me want to write...a lot of my stories are about the dreams Ennis has of Jack...how he deals with it, how he prepares for it, how it is the best part of his life...
-
Guys,
I still have some issues with the movie and the book that bother me / which i am not clear about till today. If anybody can share his / her thoughts on the following it would be great!
So, first issue.
In the short story (at the beginning) where it says about Ennis having had a dream of Jack, it says "... lets a panel of the dream slide forward. If he does not force his attention on it, it might stoke the day, rewarm that old,...". English being not my mother-tongue, this sentence seems to be contradictory. Does this mean that Ennis does *not* want the dream to "stoke the day, rewarm that old...", so he forces his attention on it by sliding a panel of the dream forward? Mm?
For me it's an important part telling us how Ennis is feeling about Jack and the fact that he's forever gone (of which we don't have much in the story) and it just does not make sense to me...
Any thoughts / explanations?
Hi there.
The fact that Jack was in his dream suffuses him with pleasure, so the dream must be a positive experience. He just "lets" a panel of the dream slide forward, so it's a very gentle act, passive rather than active. Too much concentration on it will likely stop it warming his day because he'll lose the details, so he's happy to stay with just the general feeling of having dreamed about Jack rather than trying to recall all the details.
Of course, Ennis never really did spend too much time thinking about his relationship with Jack but the dreams are his way of working through everything. At the end (of the story) his dreams are conflicted, good emotions mixed with bad ones. By the prologue it seems to be enough that Jack is in his dream for him to be happy. I think there's a period of many years between the end (of the story) and the prologue. I like to think Ennis has worked through the bad dreams and is left only with the good stuff.
But I always was a romantic.
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That's a nice thought, Marian. :)
(Me too!)
-
Is this link known to people here on the forum? I haven't looked
into it very much yet, but I hadn't heard of it.
http://brokebackmountaintribute.blogspot.com/
-
I had seen it before, but not in quite a few years.
-
Dear all,
Thank you very much for all your thoughts! And i am so glad that you disagreed with my ideas because they made me think some really bad things... >:(
Of course, Ennis never really did spend too much time thinking about his relationship with Jack but the dreams are his way of working through everything. At the end (of the story) his dreams are conflicted, good emotions mixed with bad ones. By the prologue it seems to be enough that Jack is in his dream for him to be happy. I think there's a period of many years between the end (of the story) and the prologue. I like to think Ennis has worked through the bad dreams and is left only with the good stuff.
But I always was a romantic.
I like that, too :)
Continuing on this, when the book says at the end "...Jack as he had first seen him, curly-headed and smiling and bucktoothed, talking about getting up off his pockets and into the control zone, but the can of beans with the spoon handle jutting out and balanced on the log was there as well, in a cartoon shape and lurid colors that gave the dreams a flavor of comic obscenity. The spoon handle was the kind that could be used as a tire iron..."
First, "getting up off his pockets and into the control zone" - does this mean Jack is telling Ennis to get hold of his life, to stop being passive all the time?
Second, why is the can of beans connected with a "but"? Are the beans any obstacle to Ennis?
Third, what does it all mean about the "cartoon shape and lurid colors" and "comic obscenity"?
Last but not least, the last sentence of this sequence - does it mean that Ennis is still quite afraid of the tire irons?
Ah, and why does Ennis dream of the young Jack, not the old one? Would you say this changed over the time?
-
Hm.. This is now the second time that i post questions and then answer them myself ::)
Let's see if i get this correctly - you tell me what you think.
Jack in Ennis' dream tells him to finally face the fact that he is gay and to live his life accordingly, but since Ennis is still at the beginning of his dealing with Jack's death (and the consequences) there is still that idea of "beans" aka "heterosexual society expecting from all men compliance to traditional ideas" which implies punishment for non-conformant men by means of tire irons. So, Ennis' fears are still there, and those "lurid colors" and "comic obscenity" tell us that that idea of being gay is still very uncomfortable to Ennis? Have i got this right? And if yes, do you think this was just the beginning and he came to terms with being gay eventually?
And my last question is still valid. I have some thoughts, but they are not nice and i would like to hear your ideas first.
-
Is this link known to people here on the forum? I haven't looked
into it very much yet, but I hadn't heard of it.
http://brokebackmountaintribute.blogspot.com/
When I was a baby Brokie ;D , I did start reading... but it's too ehm... extensive for my liking. It would take me years to read all of that!
Someone (the writer?) is always promoting this on YouTube (related to Brokeback videos) and / or in comments on Brokeback related articles.
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Ah, and why does Ennis dream of the young Jack, not the old one? Would you say this changed over the time?
Isn't that how many, if not all, people think of their first love, especially when they meet as teenagers or in their early twenties, like Jack and Ennis? Young, fresh-faced? Such vivid memories - even if it was decades ago. No matter how old you get, or your partner... there's always that glimpse of the younger you or him / her in your head.
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Someone (the writer?) is always promoting this on YouTube (related to Brokeback videos) and / or in comments on Brokeback related articles.
Yes, that's where I saw it, in a comment section related to the God's Own Country film.
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Ah, and why does Ennis dream of the young Jack, not the old one? Would you say this changed over the time?
I think the answer to this lies in the prologue. ...it might stoke the day, rewarm that old, cold time on the mountain when they owned the world and nothing seemed wrong.
Up until the punch on the last day, Ennis was able to enjoy the time with Jack in a weird sort of innocence. He really could kid himself that he wasn't queer, that everything was okay, while at the same time modifying his behaviour so that he didn't have to come face to face with the truth, both physically and metaphorically. IMHO on the last day, the accidental whack on the nose leads to actions by Jack (the ministering) which in turn trigger Ennis's memories of Earl, which is why Ennis then punches Jack. After that fight, he is no longer free from the knowledge that they are doing something dangerous and wrong.
So, down the track, when he first dreams of Jack it's always Jack in that period of innocence, and in the prologue it's still that time of innocence which he tries to hang onto.
But I think there's more to it than that. On the mountain, Jack had hope which he clung to for twenty years. Until the punch Jack would be justified in thinking that everything might work out okay, despite ...the knowledge that Ennis would not then embrace him face to face because he did not want to see nor feel that it was Jack he held. So Ennis is also dreaming of a time before he began to destroy Jack's hopes. Essentially, Ennis is going back to his happy place when he and Jack were young and innocent. That also can account for why he initially dreams of Jack ...talking about getting up off his pockets and into the control zone. Those were the days when Jack had hopes of getting his life moving in the right direction. By the end he's complaining that "...fuck-all has worked the way I wanted. Nothin never come to my hand the right way."
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^^^^
(sorry... late coming into this !)
I always thought the statement "...getting up off his pockets ...and in to the control zone".....meant he was always broke and he needed to make some cash which would give him more control of his life.
The "...sliding the panel of the dream etc..." I thought meant he was go ing to save the best part of his dream till he had more time and chance to go over it in his mind and savour the best parts. Almost like he could "re-live it "
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Marian, thank you very much for your thoughts on this!
Up until the punch on the last day, Ennis was able to enjoy the time with Jack in a weird sort of innocence.
You are right on this. The other day i asked myself whether Ennis and Jack had any happy times which were not being "marred" by shame, guilt, self-loathing, uncertainty / doubt, fear, time flying, suppressed feelings, apparent lies, violence / anger, (..?) - and i could hardly think of any! Their time on the mountain might seem as their happiest, but upon closer examination it is totally crippled and as you say "weird" in its worst meaning. These two humans though in love with each other were never able to live out that love. They couldn't even honestly talk to each other! It's like they are lonely even if they are together. This is totally f*ed up... It's a wonder that it took Jack 20 years to break...
IMHO on the last day, the accidental whack on the nose leads to actions by Jack (the ministering) which in turn trigger Ennis's memories of Earl, which is why Ennis then punches Jack. After that fight, he is no longer free from the knowledge that they are doing something dangerous and wrong.
IMHO: Ennis punches Jack because Jack made fun of their situation. Ennis is terrified of what comes "after the mountain" and the fact that he does not see any solution only multiplies that fear. He is paralyzed and stuck in his panic. Jack comes around and does actually the worst thing he can do - he starts a physical interaction with Ennis, which is always Ennis' way to express his emotions. Ennis' tight spring recoils. I would say that was really just a natural reaction and had nothing to do with Earl... If you look at that scene again you can actually see that Ennis is already pushing Jack against the ground in a not really playful manner. I think he was going to punch Jack anyway even without Jack getting him first (unintentionally).
Sorry, i'm moving away from the original questions...
On the mountain, Jack had hope which he clung to for twenty years. [...] So Ennis is also dreaming of a time before he began to destroy Jack's hopes. [...] That also can account for why he initially dreams of Jack ...talking about getting up off his pockets and into the control zone. Those were the days when Jack had hopes of getting his life moving in the right direction. By the end he's complaining that "...fuck-all has worked the way I wanted. Nothin never come to my hand the right way."
I understand this. Yes, i also think that the hardest part for Ennis was not being forced to face the fact that Jack had some other fella, but the fact that Jack's ideas "never come to pass" - as plainly stated by Jack's father and by Lureen's comment "...appreciate it if his wishes was carried out. 'Bout the ashes i mean." I mean, why would she feel the need to specify that the wishes were about the ashes? Sure, Lureen's comment was probably not really intentional, but i am sure it forced Ennis to think about what other wishes Jack could possibly have. Only those which only Ennis was aware of and which he was not able to fulfill during Jack's life. Poor Ennis gathers courage and tries to make at least one thing right, goes to Lightning Flat to ask for Jack's ashes and - pathetically fails even that. How crushing this must be?...
Back to your point that Ennis is dreaming of the still hopeful Jack. In my opinion this is not how "working through everything" (as you put it) works. If Ennis only focuses on the happy stuff, then there is not much change from the Ennis in the lake confrontation who does not want to know "all them things". In my books, coming to terms with what happened between E&J must also encompass acknowledgement and acceptance of the bad stuff, too - including the fact that Jack's dreams never came to pass because of Ennis' fears. If Ennis really, truly means to change and work on himself by saying "Jack, i swear..." (as i believe he meant it) then it must also include examination of his destructive patterns and their consequences. Focusing only on the most happy stuff, turning ones back on "all them things" will preclude any growth for Ennis - and this is something i do not want to believe. That's why my question whether you think his dreams changed over the time. If you say yourself that Ennis' way to work everything through was by having those dreams...
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Hey BlueAmber, thanks for joining in!
I always thought the statement "...getting up off his pockets ...and in to the control zone".....meant he was always broke and he needed to make some cash which would give him more control of his life.
Ok, that makes sense. So, no hidden meaning or messages to Ennis? ^^
The "...sliding the panel of the dream etc..." I thought meant he was going to save the best part of his dream till he had more time and chance to go over it in his mind and savour the best parts. Almost like he could "re-live it "
Mmm.. ok, i understand it regarding the panel. I had actually the problem with that sentence structure saying "If
he does not force his attention on it, it might stoke the day..." but then he goes ahead and lets that panel slide forward, so it sounded contradictory to me.
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Isn't that how many, if not all, people think of their first love, especially when they meet as teenagers or in their early twenties, like Jack and Ennis? Young, fresh-faced? Such vivid memories - even if it was decades ago. No matter how old you get, or your partner... there's always that glimpse of the younger you or him / her in your head.
Hey BlueJeanJeannie!
I understand the urge, but in my idea of perfect and eternal love there cannot be any exclusion of non-favorable parts of a person. This is probably just my wishful thinking, but in my idea Ennis must also love the old Jack even though it must be hard for him to remember that sad face. But that Jack is also part of the whole "Jack" package and i think it would be in a way cowardly and abnegating to leave that part of Jack completely out of his memories.
Sure, i am not saying that Ennis can control what he dreams of. But it's mentioned in the book on purpose and i wondered why the dreams were specified in a way that it's the young Jack Ennis is dreaming about. The book also says that after waking sometimes the pillow was wet - implying crying and grief - and sometimes the sheets - implying good memories and that "joy and release". So, it must be both. I do wish Ennis has dreams of *all* Jacks and not only the young one. Then i don't understand why Annie had the need to point out that it was young Jack... So, i wondered whether it was only at the beginning and changed with the time as Ennis gradually came to terms with what happened between him and Jack.
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Hm... I think this all leads to the ultimate question - Was Ennis ever able to change??
In my opinion the movie and the short story give us two different (opposite) answers. Short story = no; movie = yes.
So, maybe my whole problems with understanding this origin from me mixing the two versions of the story... ???
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^^^^^
We all understand that difficulty, BJ! For me anyway it require great mental discipline to separate the two...
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Yeah, Sara... There is some open space between what i know and what i want to believe, you know... Lots of wishful thinking and own constructing.
I think i know when my Brokeback-fever will be cured - the day somebody convinces me that my constructs do not make sense!
So, tell me - do i make sense with my thoughts? :)
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What can I say, when you put it like that? ;D
Anyway, it's far too soon for you to recover... You just have to continue to suffer - and enjoy it!
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Hey BlueAmber, thanks for joining in!
Ok, that makes sense. So, no hidden meaning or messages to Ennis? ^^
No...no hidden means in this statement ....not to me anyway.
It's almost like telling some one to " Get up off your ass and do something " !
*****
May I just add....re: Ennis dreaming about Jack when he was young,like when
they first met . My father...who died when he was 89yrs old ...when I dream about him...as I do sometimes.......he is as I remember him when he was young and strong. Many people dream of there loved one's when they were in their prime
and not (as in lots of cases) elderly and ill. May be it's our minds helping us to
cope with the situation.
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Many people dream of there loved one's when they were in their prime and not (as in lots of cases) elderly and ill. May be it's our minds helping us to cope with the situation.
Oh, THANKS, that makes a LOT of sense! Ok, i'm convinced now :D
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What can I say, when you put it like that? ;D
Anyway, it's far too soon for you to recover... You just have to continue to suffer - and enjoy it!
:laugh: thanks, Sara, so true!
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So, how about another question?
When Ennis and Jack are at the bar after Aguirre's trailer and Jack is telling Ennis "It's my second year up here. Last year one storm the lightnin' kilt 42 sheep" - just why does Ennis have this kind of look on his face? Kind of shocked and "what is this guy talking about??" face? Can you spell his thoughts for me?
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Ennis is a man of very few words... while Jack is a man of many words :laugh: Plus Jack is slightly cocky at first, likes to brag a little, especially likes to talk about his rodeoin' (also in that scene). I think it was all a bit much to take in for Ennis. Remember, that was the first time they met.
Have you read any of the "Scene-by-scene" threads already, BJ? Those were the first I read when I started reading here. Was so much fun!
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So, how about another question?
When Ennis and Jack are at the bar after Aguirre's trailer and Jack is telling Ennis "It's my second year up here. Last year one storm the lightnin' kilt 42 sheep" - just why does Ennis have this kind of look on his face? Kind of shocked and "what is this guy talking about??" face? Can you spell his thoughts for me?
I think the simple answer to that question is ...that Ennis was surprised that Aguirre had the nerve to blame Jack for something that was completely out of his control. Act of God so to speak ! But also I think Ennis had a bit of trouble understanding the "big" word "asphyxiated" but was too embarrassed to ask what
he/it meant. Hence the surprised look on Ennis face at Jack using such a word ! Don't forget....we are talking about poor ignorant cowboys here !!
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Marian, thank you very much for your thoughts on this!
IMHO: Ennis punches Jack because Jack made fun of their situation. Ennis is terrified of what comes "after the mountain" and the fact that he does not see any solution only multiplies that fear. He is paralyzed and stuck in his panic. Jack comes around and does actually the worst thing he can do - he starts a physical interaction with Ennis, which is always Ennis' way to express his emotions. Ennis' tight spring recoils. I would say that was really just a natural reaction and had nothing to do with Earl... If you look at that scene again you can actually see that Ennis is already pushing Jack against the ground in a not really playful manner. I think he was going to punch Jack anyway even without Jack getting him first (unintentionally).
The punch in the film is different to the original SS punch. A few years back it was mentioned that as Jack (talking film here) starts to mop up the blood he starts making soft remarks as if he's soothing a child, stuff like "You're okay, sweetie." At that point Ennis hauls back and punches him. It's sort of like his masculinity and toughness are called into question by Jack's approach.
However, in the SS it's made clear that Ennis doesn't react to the knee to the nose (and remember that he is a man of 'lightning-fast reflexes'), but it appears to be the ministering, the up close actions of Jack, along with the injury to his nose (and the point is made that Earl's nose is 'tore down from skiddin on gravel') which triggers something.
Back to your point that Ennis is dreaming of the still hopeful Jack. In my opinion this is not how "working through everything" (as you put it) works. If Ennis only focuses on the happy stuff, then there is not much change from the Ennis in the lake confrontation who does not want to know "all them things". In my books, coming to terms with what happened between E&J must also encompass acknowledgement and acceptance of the bad stuff, too - including the fact that Jack's dreams never came to pass because of Ennis' fears. If Ennis really, truly means to change and work on himself by saying "Jack, i swear..." (as i believe he meant it) then it must also include examination of his destructive patterns and their consequences. Focusing only on the most happy stuff, turning ones back on "all them things" will preclude any growth for Ennis - and this is something i do not want to believe. That's why my question whether you think his dreams changed over the time. If you say yourself that Ennis' way to work everything through was by having those dreams...
This is Ennis we're talking about :D He's got a bit to work through, I think. There's one aspect of the prologue which - for me - is crucial. He pisses in the sink. Sure, it's a way of indicating he's a bit of a loser living alone (in Accordion Crimes, Annie Proulx writes about people too dumb to pull the plug out when pissing in the sink) but it also reminds me that baby Jack was beaten by his father for failing to urinate in the correct place, i.e. the toilet, and that occasion was when Jack realised he was less than his father - 'missing material' - and became resigned to the understanding he'd never get it right with the old man. I think that in doing that simple and not especially uncommon act, Ennis is aligning himself with Jack. Better late than never, I guess.
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Hm... I think this all leads to the ultimate question - Was Ennis ever able to change??
In my opinion the movie and the short story give us two different (opposite) answers. Short story = no; movie = yes.
So, maybe my whole problems with understanding this origin from me mixing the two versions of the story... ???
I guess what I just posted is an answer to your question. I think he does change, but it's in a safe, private place where he learns to live with the truth in his own way. The need to breathe Jack's scent in the shirts as he realises the truth, the buying of the postcard, the building of his little shrine and his oath - to me, these are signs of a fundamental change in his thinking. He begins to see that it was love, not just sex. Heath breathing 'I love you' into those shirts was a perfect touch. I must find out if it was scripted.
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Ennis is a man of very few words... while Jack is a man of many words :laugh: Plus Jack is slightly cocky at first, likes to brag a little, especially likes to talk about his rodeoin' (also in that scene). I think it was all a bit much to take in for Ennis. Remember, that was the first time they met.
I think the simple answer to that question is ...that Ennis was surprised that Aguirre had the nerve to blame Jack for something that was completely out of his control. Act of God so to speak ! But also I think Ennis had a bit of trouble understanding the "big" word "asphyxiated" but was too embarrassed to ask what
he/it meant. Hence the surprised look on Ennis face at Jack using such a word ! Don't forget....we are talking about poor ignorant cowboys here !!
No... I'm not convinced ::). Everybody do me a favor and watch the scene for me? ;D Ennis' reaction which i'm puzzled about definitely starts upon Jack saying "Last year one storm the lightnin' kilt 42 sheep". The word "asphyxiated" was not even spoken yet and so the other stuff about Aguirre being mad with Jack for not controlling the weather. Although, you're right that Ennis shifts his eyes from directly looking at Jack to the side upon "asphyxiated" word and then slowly back to his beer - embarrassed, still trying to figure out?
I don't know, is Ennis just being surprised that a lightning can kill off 42 sheep? Simple as that?]
I think i'll go with that unless you have any other bright ideas! :D
Have you read any of the "Scene-by-scene" threads already, BJ? Those were the first I read when I started reading here. Was so much fun!
BlueJeanJeannie, i know, there are hundreds of pages on those threads. I hope i can read them all, but it will still take a while...
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Just a side remark.
Now watching this scene, i really like how Jack / Jake says this line "Can't please my old man, no way. *aghem*"
He does the line so quickly and low-key that you almost miss it. Just confirms my understanding of Jack's character as being shy about himself and always putting his own sorrows behind anybody else's.
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Dear Marian,
Thank you very much for your comments. It's really fun to read all these thoughts and check with myself whether they ring true with me.
The punch in the film is different to the original SS punch. A few years back it was mentioned that as Jack (talking film here) starts to mop up the blood he starts making soft remarks as if he's soothing a child, stuff like "You're okay, sweetie." At that point Ennis hauls back and punches him. It's sort of like his masculinity and toughness are called into question by Jack's approach.
However, in the SS it's made clear that Ennis doesn't react to the knee to the nose (and remember that he is a man of 'lightning-fast reflexes'), but it appears to be the ministering, the up close actions of Jack, along with the injury to his nose (and the point is made that Earl's nose is 'tore down from skiddin on gravel') which triggers something.
I don't know... It feels off to me - both ideas. I really don't think that Ennis made any connection between his and Earl's nose at that point and that there was something triggered in him.
I explained why i think Ennis punched Jack and so far i will stay with that explanation. I know one or two people who have similar character traits as Ennis - disconnect with own true feelings, denial of real reasons for those feelings, in a way lying to themselves and not able to articulate their feelings correctly. One person is especially sensitive to the way i am reacting to the same issue / event. If i don't act or feel about the issue in the same way then i become the "punching bag" for all his frustration / worry / fear. It's like searching for a way to leave it all out - which works, but in a strange way. Essentially it's re-directing the frustration / worry / fear from the real cause of the feeling to an "artificial" scapegoat. In the end the person does vent, but the very reason for the feelings is not being resolved as it is never addressed properly.
This is how i see Ennis' punching Jack because Jack was - seemingly! - not as frustrated with the situation as Ennis was.
This is Ennis we're talking about :D He's got a bit to work through, I think. There's one aspect of the prologue which - for me - is crucial. He pisses in the sink. Sure, it's a way of indicating he's a bit of a loser living alone (in Accordion Crimes, Annie Proulx writes about people too dumb to pull the plug out when pissing in the sink) but it also reminds me that baby Jack was beaten by his father for failing to urinate in the correct place, i.e. the toilet, and that occasion was when Jack realised he was less than his father - 'missing material' - and became resigned to the understanding he'd never get it right with the old man. I think that in doing that simple and not especially uncommon act, Ennis is aligning himself with Jack. Better late than never, I guess.
Hm... About the pissing - OK, noted, but feels odd, too. I could understand if you say Ennis is starting to finally "rebel" against ideas of the Fathers. If we go with this idea that pissing in the sink in prologue has something to do with Jack's childhood episode, then i would put it that way. I think a very crucial line in the movie is Ennis saying "Guess my daddy was right". Though the line is about bull riders being fuckups it illustrates that Ennis respects his father and his ideas in general - including his opinion on two men living together. Ennis' father died before Ennis was able to go through adolescence which usually implies distancing from the parents, "hating" the parents and all they say or do. Ennis had never reached that stage in his growth, so his father and all his ideas remain faultless for him.
It is indeed something that Ennis must work on after Jack's death - to finally understand that his father's deeds and sayings are not those of ultimate wisdom, that they are faulty and he must distance himself from his father, finding his own voice of justice. Find the courage to stand up to his father's voice within himself and finally kill that part off. I think without this being done there will be not much change for Ennis. Jack and Ennis' feelings for Jack will be denied forever, buried somewhere deep and never ever faced up to. And this is something i don't want to believe because it hurts too much to know that Ennis will fail Jack even after he's dead.
So, if you say those two pissing sequences are connected, then i would interpret them as Ennis finally doing something against the ideas of the father figure (even if not his own). Then i will buy it :).
I think he does change, but it's in a safe, private place where he learns to live with the truth in his own way. The need to breathe Jack's scent in the shirts as he realises the truth, the buying of the postcard, the building of his little shrine and his oath - to me, these are signs of a fundamental change in his thinking. He begins to see that it was love, not just sex.
In my opinion Ennis' knew that it was love since one year after Brokeback (as per SS) when he finally understood the reason for his dry heaves in the alley. He knew all the way, but he tried not to look that fact in the eye because acknowledging it would have great consequences for what he must do and he was too terrified to be able to face the consequences. Therefore, for me building up a "shrine" in his trailer is not a change, but one of those natural consequence of coming to terms with and facing his feelings. "Change" in my understanding is something different.
For me one sign of Ennis' change is attending Jr's wedding. In my understanding Ennis is a very lonely person, he is used to be lonely and this is something he is familiar with, it's in a way a natural state of being for him. It's weird and unhealthy, but it is one of his patterns which he follows from his childhood and he is not able to break out, even worse, he is unconsciously prone to isolate himself because this is what he is used to. Jack was in a way able to break through this pattern on Brokeback, but later on agreed to Ennis' terms which did not allow him to break through again. Ennis' isolating himself, keeping other people - even those he loves most - at a distance is something that caused Jack deep pain and i think (hope?) Ennis sees it after Jack is dead. Ennis changing his mind and attending Jr's wedding means to me that he tries to fight that pattern of his for he knows that it brings hurt to people he loves.
I think another sign of change is that scene where Ennis puts the number "17" on his mailbox. I can't put my finger on it (yet?) but he does look determined and he checks the mailbox in the same way he checked the tent ("tent don't look right"), so it looks like he is building a home - for him and Jack (?). Because this was one of Jack's wishes.... But this thought of mine is not well formulated, there is something with this scene but i'm still not sure about what is see there.
Other thoughts on "change" are Ennis taking better care of himself (not abandoning himself anymore) because Jack would not want that to happen. Though, don't know whether the prologue contradicts this idea...
In general, i imagine Ennis living with Jack together even if it's somewhat only in his imagination.
Heath breathing 'I love you' into those shirts was a perfect touch. I must find out if it was scripted.
Hunh, so, you heard it and you didn't find it odd? I saw some discussions on this. I personally see his mouth moving and hushing something, but it feels to be sooo quick and unnatural that i chose to think that he is not saying it ;). But that's just my choice. :) Unless you have some ultimate proof, of course!
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No... I'm not convinced ::).
:laugh: Never mind.
BlueJeanJeannie, i know, there are hundreds of pages on those threads. I hope i can read them all, but it will still take a while...
I know... I wish I had the time to re-read every single post / comment, or re-analyse every single scene. But you know how it is: never enough time - never enough ;)
What gave me some more insight as to how Heath and Jake played Ennis and Jack was reading the screenplay. There are several out there. The final one is in the 'Story to Screenplay' book (the one that's closest to the actual movie). While I was reading it, I could hear Ennis and Jack's voices in my head.
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Hunh, so, you heard it and you didn't find it odd? I saw some discussions on this. I personally see his mouth moving and hushing something, but it feels to be sooo quick and unnatural that i chose to think that he is not saying it ;). But that's just my choice. :) Unless you have some ultimate proof, of course!
Heh. I am still not 100% sure if it's there. At one point I had never heard anything at that scene. Other than Heath's inhale of the shirts......then, at film festival not long ago, I thought I heard it. I don't know what about the sound in that cut was different from the others, but I could swear I heard it.
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I've tried and tried, with no success, but haven't got hifi equipment....
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Will we have the old debate about SNIT's "I'm sorry" and "It's all right" again, also? Might be fun now that BJ is around! :laugh:
*hides*
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NOOOOOOOoooooooo.......!!!
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;D
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Will we have the old debate about SNIT's "I'm sorry" and "It's all right" again, also? Might be fun now that BJ is around! :laugh:
*hides*
about it being heard, or something else?
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Will we have the old debate about SNIT's "I'm sorry" and "It's all right" again, also? Might be fun now that BJ is around! :laugh:
*hides*
Hey, i don't mind! ;D
But i've read all a lot of those discussions already and have found my own opinion. There was one post on BetterMost which totally convinced me. It said that Ennis is coming to the tent extremely nervous and him being always "full-throttle" leans into kissing Jack right away (probably also just do it before he changes his mind), Jack leaning in first, too. But then Jack pauses and takes the hat away which totally distracts Ennis and throws him back into confused and terrified mode. Jack is waiting for Ennis to resume the kiss, but Ennis can't. Jack touches his face, waits a bit more, but then goes for it saying "c'mon" (it's almost unhearable, but you can see his underlip move). Jack's almost there when Ennis flinches back a bit and this is where Jack says another "c'mon", kind of breathes it into Ennis' mouth already. Then they kiss. Then Jack hangs his head and looks down because he's suddenly feeling badly about forcing Ennis into the kiss, so he says "i'm sorry" and "it's alright" (twice) and then "lay back, come on". This last one i don't hear at all, but even the latest HD Youtube video says it's what being said.
So, - bottom line - it's only Jack talking and the reasons - as above.
What's your version, BlueJeanJeannie?
P.S.: it's so embarrassing to be a grownup and dissect this extremely short and intimate scene in this way! feels so crazy.. :">
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What's your version, BlueJeanJeannie?
My name's Sonja, BJ. What's yours, if you don't mind me asking?
My version? Ah. I still think this beautiful little scene is the heart and soul of the movie.
I agree about the "c'mon"s. Not sure it's just Jack to Ennis, though. I've read this wonderful theory on this forum, years ago, that intrigued me enormously at the time - and it stayed with me ever since. I'll see if I can find it for you. Hang on.
...................................
Anyway, I've always had a suspicion that the real reason someone whispers " Sorry, sorry...."
and Jack whispers, It's allright..." is that the mechanics of the scene, perhaps got a shade too awkward at that precise moment and maybe almost came spontaneously to a halt. So, JG, slips out of character for a second and whispers that it's allright to continue - they can both hack it.
[...]
We know this is acting, but we forget.
We believe that this is actually Jack and Ennis and they're falling desperately in love, in a tent, on the mountain, in the middle of 1963.
Sooo... that theory, that one post, changed my whole perspective. Could this be not Jack to Ennis - but Jake to Heath? Actor to actor? It very well could be.
And I love the spit string.
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Wait. I'll bump the SNIT thread for you. That way, we can discuss in private :laugh:
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Wait. I'll bump the SNIT thread for you. That way, we can discuss in private :laugh:
and here's a link, if the bump didn't make it easy. ;)
http://ultimatebrokebackforum.com/index.php?topic=2423.msg2676053#msg2676053
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The punch in the film is different to the original SS punch. A few years back it was mentioned that as Jack (talking film here) starts to mop up the blood he starts making soft remarks as if he's soothing a child, stuff like "You're okay, sweetie." At that point Ennis hauls back and punches him. It's sort of like his masculinity and toughness are called into question by Jack's approach.
However, in the SS it's made clear that Ennis doesn't react to the knee to the nose (and remember that he is a man of 'lightning-fast reflexes'), but it appears to be the ministering, the up close actions of Jack, along with the injury to his nose (and the point is made that Earl's nose is 'tore down from skiddin on gravel') which triggers something.
Hey, Marian,
regarding this issue again, i found some recent posts on this in the Reunion thread and the point you were trying to make is now more clear to me. Though, i still don't like it. I'm aware it's in a way immature to say "i don't like it", but i think i have a right to say what stories i like and what i don't. I have to say i have a huge problem with that face to face issue. I think i wrote some long post on this at the Dozy Embrace thread. IF the SS really implies that there was absolutely no face to face moment (even so brief) at the mountain and IF it's true what you (and some others) suggest now that "i'm not queer" comment was triggered by something face to face that Jack had tried and was rejected and that even the punch was triggered by Ennis considering Jack's ministering as a face to face action (feels so ridiculous!) - then i have to say that i hate the short story! No, i cannot relate, no, i don't have pity with any of the characters, no, i don't think they were able to be saved,... IF so, then i don't have any kind word left for Ennis for what he'd done to Jack and i also don't have any respect for Jack for putting up with Ennis' bullshit for 20 years and even get himself killed because of that. And i don't feel ANY love in this kind of story. "Force of nature"?! Bullshit! If Ennis is THAT much in denial, there CANNOT be any love there. And if there is no love in this story, then i'm gone.
It would be interesting to hear how you describe Ennis' love towards Jack with no face to face action. And in your interpretation of the story, do you assume that face to face issue changed after the reunion's kiss? You used to post about the lock being opened, so does this mean you think their times together shifted towards being more "romantic" after the reunion?
What i constantly have to think on is this quote (from the bible?):
When I was a child, my speech, feelings, and thinking were all those of a child; now that I am an adult, I have no more use for childish ways
We know that the story of Brokeback Mountain is one of at least 20 years, which means that the characters, their actions, feelings, thoughts should change with the time. Same is valid for the viewer, too. I am 35 now and i don't know anymore whether i had the same kind of insight as i have now when i was 19. I suppose not. Was a 19 year old Ennis different in his actions than a 31 year old Ennis? How different would he be? Means, i could buy this "absolutely no face to face" notion if it's only limited to the time on the mountain, but then i need some great loving moments after that for me to leave that dark place of no loving. And there is no mentioning of such in the SS. [That's why i guess i go with the movie version...]
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So, i have another issue with the movie where i am confused, but i guess i should post it at the Scenes thread. Would be glad if anybody could visit the Reunion thread and share his / her thoughts. Thanks!
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Hm.... This died off quite quickly... :(
I still would like to know everybody's thoughts on f2f issue. Especially Marian since she's an early advocate of the idea.
What happened? Everybody off to the eclipse? Still re-watching the movie? Off into holidays due to being August? Wind blows the dirt, tumbleweeds roll...
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I'm bringing a quote from Sue (BlueAmber) from another thread to this one, because my reply better fits this thread.
.....but is hoping Jack is assuaged with a promise of them meeting up "every now and then". Jacks disappointment is over whelming. He cannot see any future except for a few passion filled fleeting days when life would begin ...... and then end... till the next time. Jack knows he will agree to this. Anything.....is better than nothing.
Sue, this quote is one of the reasons that I think a "remake" of Brokeback won't happen. The film is set from the 60s through the 80s. Gay men were forced into the closet, and really didn't have many options of meeting each other, besides bars and bathhouses, maybe in personal ads in the back of certain magazines.
Now, there gay organizations, sport teams, online forums, Twitter, Facebook, Pride events, groups on school campuses, the same sense of "isolation" isn't there, so if remake is done in the future, the generations that follow won't be able to relate to it, the same way that people did 11 years ago.
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... if [a] remake is done in the future, the generations that follow won't be able to relate to it, the same way that people did 11 years ago.
Well, that - and Heath's death. I truly believe that Heath's (film) Ennis is so iconic by now (and sort of untouchable), that the industry will think twice about doing a remake. I wish I could say Jake's performance as Jack is as iconic as Heath's Ennis (it is to me!), but ultimately... in general BBM the movie will always be viewed as one of Heath's most impressive roles, I think - simply because of his untimely passing.
It's different for the stage, obviously.
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Yes Sonja, that's also a factor.
While Heath's performance is iconic, all of the main actors were given rave reviews for their performances, it will be extremely difficult for anyone to find four more people to give stand-out performances for the same roles and story.
it would always be held up to the original in comparison.
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While Heath's performance is iconic...
I can see another iconic (film) Joker in the future (Jared Leto?), as that character is part of a on-going series somehow, but another film Ennis? No way.
Same goes for Jake's Jack, in my opinion - he's just as iconic. But somehow Jake got less credit for it over the years. I've always wondered why.
BBM is very much Heath's movie, somehow. Understandable - but sometimes frustrating.
Both men were breathtaking. And Michelle and Anne are still Alma and Lureen to me :laugh:
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I think Jake showed such sensitivity as Jack. You can see the emotions washing over his face and in his eyes.
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@Sara & Sonja: Yes and yes.
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I think Jake showed such sensitivity as Jack. You can see the emotions washing over his face and in his eyes.
Particularly in his eyes! Especially in the scene where Jack drives away from Ennis and looks back at him in his rear view mirror. The sadness in those eyes... :'( That's the scene that got to me.
Uhm. I now see I've used the word "somehow" quite a lot in my previous post. Sorry. Somehow ;D
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Same goes for Jake's Jack, in my opinion - he's just as iconic. But somehow Jake got less credit for it over the years. I've always wondered why.
One of our members questioned Diana Ossana about this, I believe it was Jenny, if I recall correctly. I'll see if it was, and if she'll tell the story.
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Particularly in his eyes! Especially in the scene where Jack drives away from Ennis and looks back at him in his rear view mirror. The sadness in those eyes... :'( That's the scene that got to me.
There are many powerful scenes in the film - and this is one of my favorites also. It focuses you in multiple planes and time and emotions. As Jack is driving away, he has only a small mirror to focus on and the images are growing smaller and smaller. Jack's eyes and those ever smaller images in the tiny rear-view mirror represent Ennis being ripped from Jack both visually and emotionally. What Jack cannot see but we do is what Ennis does when he ducks into the alley. And in the few scenes before that, where they are standing at the truck, Jack delivers another kick with those eyes when he asks about coming back next year.
V.
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So much is said even when nothing is said.
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So much is said even when nothing is said.
Sign of a good actor.
"It's not what you say.....it's the silences in between."
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Hey, Marian,
regarding this issue again, i found some recent posts on this in the Reunion thread and the point you were trying to make is now more clear to me. Though, i still don't like it. I'm aware it's in a way immature to say "i don't like it", but i think i have a right to say what stories i like and what i don't. I have to say i have a huge problem with that face to face issue. I think i wrote some long post on this at the Dozy Embrace thread. IF the SS really implies that there was absolutely no face to face moment (even so brief) at the mountain and IF it's true what you (and some others) suggest now that "i'm not queer" comment was triggered by something face to face that Jack had tried and was rejected and that even the punch was triggered by Ennis considering Jack's ministering as a face to face action (feels so ridiculous!) - then i have to say that i hate the short story! No, i cannot relate, no, i don't have pity with any of the characters, no, i don't think they were able to be saved,... IF so, then i don't have any kind word left for Ennis for what he'd done to Jack and i also don't have any respect for Jack for putting up with Ennis' bullshit for 20 years and even get himself killed because of that. And i don't feel ANY love in this kind of story. "Force of nature"?! Bullshit! If Ennis is THAT much in denial, there CANNOT be any love there. And if there is no love in this story, then i'm gone.
It would be interesting to hear how you describe Ennis' love towards Jack with no face to face action. And in your interpretation of the story, do you assume that face to face issue changed after the reunion's kiss? You used to post about the lock being opened, so does this mean you think their times together shifted towards being more "romantic" after the reunion?
What i constantly have to think on is this quote (from the bible?):We know that the story of Brokeback Mountain is one of at least 20 years, which means that the characters, their actions, feelings, thoughts should change with the time. Same is valid for the viewer, too. I am 35 now and i don't know anymore whether i had the same kind of insight as i have now when i was 19. I suppose not. Was a 19 year old Ennis different in his actions than a 31 year old Ennis? How different would he be? Means, i could buy this "absolutely no face to face" notion if it's only limited to the time on the mountain, but then i need some great loving moments after that for me to leave that dark place of no loving. And there is no mentioning of such in the SS. [That's why i guess i go with the movie version...]
Hi, Julia.
The way I see it is that with the reunion kiss the restrictions are off, so for the rest of the sixteen years the relationship is considerably more varied than it is on the mountain. As you indicate, there aren't any real "loving" moments after the reunion. We have to imagine everything. To be honest, I don't ever see Ennis being loving in a romantic, conscious sense at any time with Jack. To admit to such a thing would be tantamount to admitting to being queer, and Ennis isn't about to do that. Even in the last argument, Jack complains about the scarcity of high altitude fucks and time spent together rather than the lack of love; WE know he's dying inside from what's happening but he daren't say anything more.
It's hard to condense all my thoughts into a few sentences but I'll waffle on and see where I get.
To me, the story isn't entirely natural despite appearances (and while I know most fiction isn't strictly natural since an author picks and chooses and arranges to make a point, there are many stories which are pretty close to natural). BBM is tightly constructed around some recurring ideas. The time on the mountain is like a fable: it's the physical acting out of mental states. So Ennis will not physically face Jack in intimate moments while on the mountain, then later on he will not metaphorically do it. He will not face up to the truth and admit to himself that he loves Jack. (There's an allegorical retelling of the story later on when their last trip is recounted in great detail but if you head to the Structure thread you'll find I raved on about these things in enormous and obsessive detail.)
You ask why Jack puts up with it for so long. Right at the end of the story we learn of two crucial scenes: the Dozy Embrace and the time when Jack's father beat him. Jack is like a neglected puppy who craves love and who keeps trying to get it despite everything. Furthermore, he knows Ennis is capable of love (or thinks he knows) because he sensed it once in that magical moment of the DE. Yes, it's a hard story.
You might have come across the archived thread Kissing On Brokeback: Does It Mean Love? (You'll recognise it by the massive pools of congealed blood surrounding it :D) Many posters found the literal idea of no face-to-face a step too far and too hard to take so you're not alone. As Annie Proulx said, it's about destructive rural homophobia, and that destruction is brought down upon what ought to have been a healthy relationship. It's a killer.
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Kissing On Brokeback: Does It Mean Love? (You'll recognise it by the massive pools of congealed blood surrounding it :D)
:laugh:
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Dear Marian,
First i have to - again - say thank you for your continuous replies to my rants. You're like some kind of original guru of BBM and your posts are of immense importance to me :D.
Kissing On Brokeback: Does It Mean Love?
Thanks for this hint! It looks extremely interesting and on the first page only there are great arguments presented. I will need some time to go through it, but in the meantime...
OK, let's say on Brokeback they did not embrace face to face, there was no kissing, no other face to face situations [i don't know, if you say that even Jack's ministering was too close to a face to face situation (for Ennis), then anything like handing over the whiskey, discussing the place for the camp, just looking into each other's eyes would fall into the same category to me!!!], then why on earth is the Dozy Embrace THE driving force for Jack to come back for 20 years?! Why is it *not* the reunion kiss?? We know face to face was extremely important to Jack, so why doesn't he remember the reunion kiss as THE exhibition of love by Ennis? Or did Jack feel no love in the reunion kiss?
Furthermore, why is the time on the mountain remembered as a sacred time by both of them if they did move forward (past the face to face issue) after the reunion? I just cannot wrap my mind around it...
I read your fanfic story "The Kiss" a while back and i now understand where it comes from. I absolutely agree with you that IF we accept the suggestion of no kissing and no face to face on Brokeback, then Ennis must have some really aggressive characteristics / tendencies and this story of yours would totally fit with this interpretation of the story. Even more, while your story would fit, Annie's story would still feel quite unnatural and artificial.
You ask why Jack puts up with it for so long. Right at the end of the story we learn of two crucial scenes: the Dozy Embrace and the time when Jack's father beat him. Jack is like a neglected puppy who craves love and who keeps trying to get it despite everything.
I agree with you. Recently i read "Beans and Crazies" and had some thoughts of my own and i came to the same conclusion that Jack is somebody who has a destructive pattern of his own - which is (unconsciously) seeking rejection and holding onto it to gain acknowledgement, against all common sense and pain involved. Coming to think of it, maybe it was not quite a coincidence that he had L.D. as father-in-law and maybe that was the driving force for him to stay in the marriage with Lureen (rather than keeping up "normal" appearance for Ennis).
To me, the story isn't entirely natural despite appearances (and while I know most fiction isn't strictly natural since an author picks and chooses and arranges to make a point, there are many stories which are pretty close to natural). BBM is tightly constructed around some recurring ideas. The time on the mountain is like a fable: it's the physical acting out of mental states. So Ennis will not physically face Jack in intimate moments while on the mountain, then later on he will not metaphorically do it. He will not face up to the truth and admit to himself that he loves Jack. (There's an allegorical retelling of the story later on when their last trip is recounted in great detail but if you head to the Structure thread you'll find I raved on about these things in enormous and obsessive detail.)
It's good that you say that. I also feel that at some places the short story is a bit forced because of Annie's intentions.
One of the reasons why i was so affected by the story (or movie?) was that i felt the story and characters to be impossibly real and true in their humanity. I saw the movie first and i do think that it gives the short story a lot of soul, so probably it was Ang Lee's version that had that effect on me rather than Annie's story. If you start to take apart Annie's story you start to see its construct, its artificialness and by doing so you take away that human factor which makes it less believable. Would you agree? (Alternative question is - could you do the same with the movie?)
If you agree, then i would go further and suggest that we cannot trust the short story and its subtle inkling of no face to face on the mountain. The point of rural and / or internalized homophobia does not lose its significance if there is any kissing on the mountain. Because the outcome is the same - even *with* kissing and face to face Ennis is never able to overcome his fears and denial within Jack's lifetime. Even with kissing and face to face the relationship they have is far from healthy judging from the damage they inflict on each other. The homophobia is still the killer in this story.
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This is an old interview about the filming of Brokeback, with the owners of the laundry and apartment, after filming was completed. It might be old news, but may by interesting to some of the newer members.
It's from the Finding Brokeback website...the whole site is fascinating.
http://www.findingbrokeback.com/Interviews/_Interview_Frame.html (http://www.findingbrokeback.com/Interviews/_Interview_Frame.html)
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Thanks for the post, Nancy! That site is interesting, and so is the interview.
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But the big lovely sign they put up on the building is gone... :(
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The Hollywood Foreign Press is celebrating their 75th Anniversary Awards
next January and this week they had a 75th Anniversary Special on NBC
with clips and commentary from over the years.
Since 1943 they have awarded 131 Best Film Awards in their Drama and
Comedy/Musical categories. The HFPA was asked to rank their list of the
TOP !5 films from the 131 films honored since 1943.
Here is their list:
1. The Godfather
2. Lawrence of Arabia
3. Chinatown
4. Some Like It Hot
5. E.T.: The Extra-Terrestrial
6. Sunset Blvd.
7. One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest
8. Schindler's List
9 . The Graduate
10. On the Waterfront
11. Amadeus
12. Titanic
13. Brokeback Mountain
14. La La Land
15. The Sound of Music
That is an incredible list to be on, in my opinion! I've seen all of them more than once and some many times.
Not all movies were commented on, sometimes just the clips were shown, but Jake Gyllenhaal spoke a
few words about Brokeback Mountain. Here they are the best I can offer...the actual words might be off
here and there.
Jake:
It's an incredible honor that the HFPA included Brokeback Mountain on their list of extraordinary movies.
The funny thing about a movie like that is I don't think we understood the resonance, at the time, that
it would have, what it would become, and that it would be awarded and lauded the way that it was. We
started off with just a group of people coming together, trying to do something honestly and then it
became what it's become today and it's just incredible. And it's incredible to be amongst a group of films
and film makers and actors and actresses that make wonderful cinema. It's an honor.
The film clips they showed were the reunion scene on the steps with Alma seeing the guys kiss, the
"I wish I knew how to quit you" scene and the scene with Ennis finding the shirts in the closet.
At one point in the program in an unrelated area, they cut to Heath and Jake sitting together in the
audience and it felt so real and alive that you can't believe it isn't.
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Here is the link to watch the special on your computer. If you have AdBlock, make sure to disable it.
https://www.nbc.com/golden-globe-75th-anniversary-special/video/golden-globe-75th-anniversary-special/3632177
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I just watched it on my computer, and it was great. Once again when I saw the scenes and heard the music tears came to my eyes, like always!
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Linda, did you see that one part near the end, I forgot who was on stage in the clip, but they cut
to Jake & Heath in the audience, and Heath looks like he's saying something to Jake and it made
me at first joyful and then wince, because Heath should still be here.
Also, that Top 15 list of what the HFPA considers their best films from 1943 (when they were founded) to now,
is so impressive and almost any film fan would embrace each and every one of those films. I kind of expected
The Godfather to be at or near the top.
1. The Godfather (1972)
2. Lawrence of Arabia (1962)
3. Chinatown (1974)
4. Some Like It Hot (1959)
5. E.T.: The Extra-Terrestrial (1982)
6. Sunset Blvd. (1950)
7. One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest (1975)
8. Schindler's List (1993)
9 . The Graduate (1967)
10. On the Waterfront (1954)
11. Amadeus (1984)
12. Titanic (1997)
13. Brokeback Mountain (2005)
14. La La Land (2016)
15. The Sound of Music (1965)
If I ranked these same 15, they would be:
13. Brokeback Mountain (2005)
6. Sunset Blvd. (1950)
14. La La Land (2016)
4. Some Like It Hot (1959)
5. E.T.: The Extra-Terrestrial (1982)
12. Titanic (1997)
15. The Sound of Music (1965)
7. One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest (1975)
11. Amadeus (1984)
3. Chinatown (1974)
1. The Godfather (1972)
8. Schindler's List (1993)
9 . The Graduate (1967)
10. On the Waterfront (1954)
2. Lawrence of Arabia (1962)
Today anyway, lol!
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Yes I did see that, Lyle, and I agree with your sentiment.
I was able to cast it to my TV set as I have Chromecast and so it was like watching it when it was broadcast.
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Nice! ;D
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Since I have a bit of spending money, I've just purchased the following eight books online about the film "Brokeback Mountain" (2005). Their basically gifts to myself for Valentine's Day and for Easter. I am going to have half of them for Valentine's Day and save the other half for Easter. By setting up this little arrangement with myself, it will give me more time to read through them. Some of the books are used, but I got all of them for less than $100.00. I have been wanting to read some of the books that have been written about Ang Lee's theatrical film for a while now. These are the titles of the eight books that I purchased:
1."On Brokeback Mountain: Meditations about Masculinity, Fear, and Love in the Story and the Film" (2008) by Eric Patterson.
2. "The Brokeback Book: From Story to Cultural Phenomenon" (2011) by William R. Handley.
3. "I Wish I Knew How to Quit You: An Unofficial Brokeback Mountain Trivia Book" (2006) by Joshua Michaelmas.
4. "Dreamfilm - Brokeback Mountain Explored" (2007) by Daniel Bates.
5. "Reading Brokeback Mountain: Essays on the Story and the Film" (2007) by Jim Stacy.
6. "Brokeback Mountain (American Indies) " (2010) by Gary Needham.
7. "Beyond Brokeback: The Impact of a Film" (2007) by Members of the Ultimate Brokeback Forum.
8. "Brokeback Mountain: Story to Screenplay" (2005) by Annie Proulx, Larry McMurtry and Diana Ossana.
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Please let us know your thoughts. I've got Patterson's book but have never been able to finish it. Some of these, I've never seen before. Thanks! V.
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Linda, did you see that one part near the end, I forgot who was on stage in the clip, but they cut
to Jake & Heath in the audience, and Heath looks like he's saying something to Jake and it made
me at first joyful and then wince, because Heath should still be here.
Also, that Top 15 list of what the HFPA considers their best films from 1943 (when they were founded) to now,
is so impressive and almost any film fan would embrace each and every one of those films. I kind of expected
The Godfather to be at or near the top.
1. The Godfather (1972)
2. Lawrence of Arabia (1962)
3. Chinatown (1974)
4. Some Like It Hot (1959)
5. E.T.: The Extra-Terrestrial (1982)
6. Sunset Blvd. (1950)
7. One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest (1975)
8. Schindler's List (1993)
9 . The Graduate (1967)
10. On the Waterfront (1954)
11. Amadeus (1984)
12. Titanic (1997)
13. Brokeback Mountain (2005)
14. La La Land (2016)
15. The Sound of Music (1965)
If I ranked these same 15, they would be:
13. Brokeback Mountain (2005)
6. Sunset Blvd. (1950)
14. La La Land (2016)
4. Some Like It Hot (1959)
5. E.T.: The Extra-Terrestrial (1982)
12. Titanic (1997)
15. The Sound of Music (1965)
7. One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest (1975)
11. Amadeus (1984)
3. Chinatown (1974)
1. The Godfather (1972)
8. Schindler's List (1993)
9 . The Graduate (1967)
10. On the Waterfront (1954)
2. Lawrence of Arabia (1962)
Today anyway, lol!
I also like that "Schindler's List" (1993) was included on the list.
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I read through the "Joe My God" . com news blog that deals with LGBT issues and read an article about Catholic cardinal Timothy Dolan saying that gay men should live a life without ever being romantically or sexually involved with other men. One comment mentioned something about gay men living together as "platonic friends". I am not LGBT, but I thought, "how ridiculous". Timothy Dolan may choose to follow the rule that Roman Catholic clergy are not allowed to date or have sex because of his religious profession, but what right does he have to tell a whole group of people what to do? I don't believe that a close platonic friendship that does not involve romance or sex can make up for the need to be romantically or sexually involved with another consenting adult. Romantic and sexual desires in an adult for another adult is perfectly natural and healthy to me.
A life of choosing to voluntarily follow a rule that requires that you live the rest of your life as a celibate person in order to continue remaining a member of a highly restrictive and exclusive fundamentalist religious, it just doesn't seem very realistic to me. People have the right to make such a choice and I respect their right to do that, but I honestly have to say that I personally don't agree with or respect their reasons for making such a choice. I think that it would be lonely and miserable existence. I think that it would be better to leave such a religious group. It seems to me that such a religious group doesn't want you as a member anyway. I mean, if Yahweh or any other deity is going punish you for choosing to express your sexual feelings, then why wouldn't he punish you for merely having those feelings anyway? There aren't any passages in the Bible that suggest that gay men who choose not to have sex with other men with make it into the afterlife. The authors of the Bible, including Saint Paul seem to view same-sex male relationships as being nothing more than an "abomination' and "shameful lust", that is if you hold to a literal interpretation of these and other Biblical passages.
As for myself, I don't care what the authors of the Bible or any other religious scriptures views on romantic and sexual feelings between adults of the same gender or even same-sex relationships are. To me, the authors' of these scriptures' views on homosexuality are simply wrong. I think they are wrong about a lot of other issues, too. Even if being LGBT was a choice, I still would support other people's right to make such a choice as long as they weren't hurting anyone else. I think sexual relationships between people of the same gender are morally neutral. They are neither "immoral" or "moral" to me. I think that they are entirely healthy if that is how one feels. If Timothy Dolan told unmarried couples to stop having sex, how many of them do you think would listen. I can hear a lot of crickets chirping in the dark on that one. Dolan is entitled to his opinion, but it is an opinion that I disagree with. I don't think that romantic and sexual repression is healthy and I think that it does damage. I just feel sorry for LGBT persons who are involved with the Roman Catholic Church, especially LGBT teenagers who might have heard his words.
Jack and Ennis had to live a life of repression and it didn't seem like it did them an ounce of good. They had to pretend to be something they weren't just to appease other people. They hurt themselves and ended up hurting their families whom they cared deeply about. Pretending to be heterosexual or cisgender if you are LGBT also seems to be unhealthy and damaging to me, nobody should have to do that, although I can understand why some people do. I just feel that it is a shame that people feel like they have to do that to themselves. I just felt the need to mention this because it was something that I needed to talk about.
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I grew up in a catholic land and went to a catholic school, funny enough, I don't remember school as homophobic at all, it was just something nobody spoke about. They were pretty democratic in a way, ALL sex was bad, even talking friendly to the male teachers if you were a girl was considered suspicious, we were told by a nun the next step would be trying to buy our grades sleeping with them! Well, I grew up falling in love with both girls and boys and wasn't able to understand what I feel for girls until I was at the university, it just did not exist at all in my head that it was possible and it confused the hell out of me. But I am talking about a girl experience, it was completely different for boys, gay kids, or just boys who appeared to be somehow weak or "girly" went through hell, and sadly enough it was mainly the other boys, not the adults, who were reponsible for that.
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I grew up in a catholic land and went to a catholic school, funny enough, I don't remember school as homophobic at all, it was just something nobody spoke about. They were pretty democratic in a way, ALL sex was bad, even talking friendly to the male teachers if you were a girl was considered suspicious, we were told by a nun the next step would be trying to buy our grades sleeping with them! Well, I grew up falling in love with both girls and boys and wasn't able to understand what I feel for girls until I was at the university, it just did not exist at all in my head that it was possible and it confused the hell out of me. But I am talking about a girl experience, it was completely different for boys, gay kids, or just boys who appeared to be somehow weak or "girly" went through hell, and sadly enough it was mainly the other boys, not the adults, who were reponsible for that.
Gazapete,
Interesting story. I think that Roman Catholic Church views all sexual relationships outside of procreative purposes are looked down upon. Most of the religious groups that I was previously involved with had a very negative view of LGBT issues, that much I knew, but such subjects weren't really talked about all that much. I think if an LGBT person that chooses to embrace and express their sexual orientation and/or gender identity who really wants to practice certain Catholic doctrines and rituals, they should do it at home apart from the Church. In regards to your comments about the bullying of "effeminate" or less masculine boys, kids can be pretty mean at times, even if they were raised or are being raised in religious households.
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Most of the religious groups that I was previously involved with had a very negative view of LGBT issues, that much I knew, but such subjects weren't really talked about all that much..
I don't think I explained that well. It's clear what the catholic church thinks on homosexuality, it's a clear way to hell, at least back then. Now they say it could be okay to be gay as long as you stay celibate. This new pope seems to be I bit more understanding of the matters of the world as his predecessors, but it remains a mortal sin. All non procreation sex is a sin, even masturbation.
The reason I don't remember it being an issue at school is because it just did not exist. They didn't want us innocent children to even know there was something like that.
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Since 1943 they have awarded 131 Best Film Awards in their Drama and
Comedy/Musical categories. The HFPA was asked to rank their list of the
TOP !5 films from the 131 films honored since 1943.
[...]
That is an incredible list to be on, in my opinion!
[...]
At one point in the program in an unrelated area, they cut to Heath and Jake sitting together in the audience and it felt so real and alive that you can't believe it isn't.
I hadn't seen your post(s) until just now, Lyle. Thanks for posting this! :-*
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You're very welcome!
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I don't think I explained that well. It's clear what the catholic church thinks on homosexuality, it's a clear way to hell, at least back then. Now they say it could be okay to be gay as long as you stay celibate. This new pope seems to be I bit more understanding of the matters of the world as his predecessors, but it remains a mortal sin. All non procreation sex is a sin, even masturbation.
The reason I don't remember it being an issue at school is because it just did not exist. They didn't want us innocent children to even know there was something like that.
I don't think that Pope Francis is any more "understanding" than any of the other Popes. I still think that idea of it being okay to be gay "as long as you remain celibate for the rest of your natural life" is a damaging idea. The idea that homosexuality is a "mortal sin", I believe this also is a very damaging belief. I feel sorry for any LGBT teenager who is currently involved with the Roman Catholic Church. As for transphobia, on YouTube, I recently came across this sexually explicit song by a country singer who sings of how he love performing oral sex on women and beating men up. He meets a woman while walking on Broadway, takes her home, discovers that she has a penis, he performs oral sex on this transgender woman since she paid him and then he beats the transgender woman up. He also refers to the transgender woman as a "he" and thinks that it is "wrong" that the woman has a penis. At the end of the song, the back-up singer states that they don't want their name on the song and then the country singer says, "Where did everybody go?" Even though it is just a song, is still seems to highlight that taking sexual advantage of abusing transgender women is "okay". I don't believe that that sort of behavior is "okay".
I'm every bit opposed to transphobia, just like I am biphobia or homophobia. Referring to a transgender person by an identity that they don't consider themselves as being, that just doesn't seem right to me. When cisgender people do that to transgender men and women, they seem to be trying to decide what other people's identities should be for them. I am against that. People should be allowed to decide what gender traits that they identify with. I consider transgender male and female identities to be just as real and as valid as those of a cisgendered person. The same goes for intersex people. I know that it Columbus, Ohio in July of 2017, just a few months ago there was some sort of ban involving transgender people, when this kind of discrimination and prejudice occurs, serious consequences are always the result. Look at all the transgender persons of color who have been murdered in the U.S. over the past few years. The same thing happens to young black boys and men. Society often has portrayed and in many ways still portrays black men as "more likely" to be violent and more inclined to be criminals. Over the past few years in the U.S., policemen have been getting away with shooting African-American men and teenage boys to death by misusing their power of authority to justify their racist attitudes.
As for myself, I strongly believe in questioning the demands of any authority. A lawmaker is not worthy of respect or allegiance in my eyes if they don't believe in protecting and serving all citizens. I would treat the lawmaker decently if I came across them in person which is what I think my moral code would compel me to do, but I would never be able to respect them. As a lawmaker who doesn't protect or serve the best interests of black people or transgender people, along with many other groups is not someone that I can show any kind of support to, that is just how I feel. I respect the right for that country singer to release a song like that, but I feel that the way the song portrays having sex with, then physically assaulting a transgender woman as kind of "not being a big deal", that needed a little criticism from me. If someone in real life did that, I would wonder if they were struggling with feel a sexual attraction to a transgender person that they didn't want to acknowledge to themselves. Either that or they really are transphobic, maybe they themselves could even be a self-hating, closeted transgender person.
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And I agree with every point you make here.
I don't defend the catholic church at all, I'm just telling my story growing up in it. It made my life difficult and I have no fond memories of my school, but I didn't went through the hell some friends of mine did. Maybe because my parents were never religious, so they kind of fought at home the predujices they taught us at school, I was lucky. And I am happy to see my once so catholic country, Spain, distancing itself more and more from the church. I was even actually proud of ot when it became one of the first countries in the world were gay marriage was approved, including adoption rights.
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"After the dozen red roses, candle-lit dinner, and box of fancy chocolates, what could be better than to plop down on the sofa and watch a romantic movie with someone you love—even if that person is just you. Since cameras first caught The Kiss in 1896, we have swooned and sighed to people falling in love on the big screen. And while love is universal, every love story is different—and beautiful—in its own way.
For Valentine’s Day, we have assembled a heart-shaped sampler of love stories for your enjoyment. From passionate adaptations of classic novels to a poignant dramatization of a real-life couple, these movies demonstrate why the heart is our strongest muscle. Enjoy one or savor the many-splendored pleasure of all of them."
http://focusfeatures.com/article/holiday_valentines-day_romantic-movies (http://focusfeatures.com/article/holiday_valentines-day_romantic-movies)
:-*
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(https://78.media.tumblr.com/c0bd18a7f57a0d8c45a401d5a14d3277/tumblr_okx1kfWZZv1ran0wlo3_1280.jpg)
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:D :D :D
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:laugh:
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http://ew.com/tv/2018/02/21/netflix-lost-in-space-2
Additional link:
http://subscription-assets.timeinc.com/current/2332_top1_205_thumb.jpg
^^^
I was looking for other info and found an image of the cover of EW:
Titanic - Sound of Music - Brokeback Mountain - E.T.
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^^^
I don't see the cover you're talking about at the link. ?
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Did anyone else ever hear that HEATH LEDGER had been cast in the film CRASH?
See my post: HERE (http://ultimatebrokebackforum.com/index.php?topic=27999.1620.msg2708574#msg2708574)!
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I also posted this in Gay Cinema:
An interesting LOVE, SIMON sidebar I read in EW:
Love, Simon
NICK ROBINSON'S JACKET
Love, SImon costume designer Eric Daman says he wanted
to give Simon "a soft grunge vibe that echoed his love of music."
After trying several vintage '70's jackets--rejected because they
felt too hipstery--Daman found a winner from TopMan. "The jacket
shows he has style in a subtle, nuanced way," says the designer,
who adds that the cowboy-influenced style is a nod to Brokeback
Mountain. Though the original jacket is no longer available, the
brand has produced a similar version.
(https://www.theamericanfashion.com/product_images/o/829/love-simon-denim-jacket__67189_std.jpg)
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I had a similar jacket in high school! Ohhh, I wonder if my mother still keeps it somewhere...
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Two days ago Sara kindly sent me this video, it is the reading of Jari's words about the impact Brokeback Mountain had on him and what it means to him. It’s really moving, if you don't know it watch it, please, otherwise what I write would make even less sense.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZfyMsGz6WLU&feature=youtu.be
The reason she thought I would be interested is because I am HIV positive, been for a while, since 1992 or 1993. Now, living with something like that often filters the way you understand what you read, what you listened to and what you watch, but Jari's words made my head spin, because I never thought of it in that way. I thought of the people who died, their loved ones, the incredible individuals whose talent went lost, but I never thought of it as a collective loss of narrative, a gap in time that shallowed all those people's stories. That really blew my mind off.
Please keep in mind that this is really subjective. Ever from the first time I watched BBM the first thing that came to my mind would happen if Jack had survived was "he would have died of AIDS, at least he didn't have to go through it”. Because let’s be honest, driving to Mexico probably didn't imply safe sex. And listening to Jari I realised that Jack's is also one of those lost stories, doesn't matter how he died, he is also a gap in the narrative timeline, one of thousands of stories erased by prejudice, hate, ignorance, fear. Until Annie Proulx rescued his story. And now I can't avoid seeing Jack in my mind as a representative of all those who died in the 80s and 90s, and are still dying today. Sara pointed to me that Annie Proulx would have made it obvious if she intended to give it that meaning, but as I said, this is a very very subjective view, I am aware that my mind plays in really strange ways sometimes. Anyway, Jack has known gained a new significance for me, he is more alive than ever before in my mind and in my heart.
This loss of narrative brought me too to the video of this song I love and now really see as filling in some of the gaps in the narrative. The author is gay and openly HIV-positive, some of you maybe know his songs from the movie “Weekend”. There is even a glimpse of our boys.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3BzvWPYo94
Sara encouraged me to write about this, but I am terrified of not being able to articulate it properly, I hope I somehow managed to make myself understandable. Now I only hope someone points me to the right thread for my ramblings. and that someone is interested enough to read it, and if you find it’s utter nonsense, don’t be too cruel to me, please.
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Thank you for sharing such a personal post, Elena! I'm so glad that Jari's words meant so much to you. I sure he would be glad too.
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(https://78.media.tumblr.com/c0bd18a7f57a0d8c45a401d5a14d3277/tumblr_okx1kfWZZv1ran0wlo3_1280.jpg)
What a cool valentine.
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Has this been posted in any thread? I found it on Facebook:
http://focusfeatures.com/article/interview_dave-cullen_brokeback-mountain/ (http://focusfeatures.com/article/interview_dave-cullen_brokeback-mountain/)
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I tried to read but got hooked on the picture and could not scroll down.
No, seriously, I did read it, thanks for posting.
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Thanks so much for posting this, Jeannie. A good article, and I am so glad articles like this are still bringing the movie to the forefront.
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Focus Features posted this new video today:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Ig_zhTAOxU
You Know That Scene - Episode 2 - LGBTQ+ Films and Filmmakers
Focus Features movies discussed include Brokeback Mountain, Boy Erased, The Danish Girl...
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Focus Features posted this new video today:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Ig_zhTAOxU
You Know That Scene - Episode 2 - LGBTQ+ Films and Filmmakers
Focus Features movies discussed include Brokeback Mountain, Boy Erased, The Danish Girl...
Thanks so much, Lyle, for posting this. Seeing BBM being revisited in any way brings me so much joy for many reasons. I love what they had to say about it.
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Thanks, Lyle. It was a good video.
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^^^ They selected wisely - still raises chills down my back. It's been a while since I watched that scene. “Ain't never enough time..." TY. V.
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^^^^^ The scene that always makes me cry.
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https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2018/12/12/brokeback-mountain-library-congress/
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^^^^ WOW.. never thought I'd see that... I am a bit overwhelmed. V.
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https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2018/12/12/brokeback-mountain-library-congress/
Thanks, Fritz, for this! Makes me so very happy!!
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This is so good, thank you for posting, Fritzito!
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^^^^ Amen.. I never thought I'd live long enough to see BBM added to the LoC collection!! Here's to "I wish I knew how to quit you!" V
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^^^^ Amen.. I never thought I'd live long enough to see BBM added to the LoC collection!! Here's to "I wish I knew how to quit you!" V
:) :) :) Amen is right.
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YES!
Really, this is quite remarkable. It was eligible after ten years and I'm pretty sure only two films made
the list when they were first eligible. This is only three years later!
BRAVO!
This is the entire list.
It's a great list overall this year, IMO!
Here's the whole list:
Films Selected for the 2018 National Film Registry
(alphabetical order)
Bad Day at Black Rock (1955)
Broadcast News (1987)
Brokeback Mountain (2005)
Cinderella (1950)
Days of Wine and Roses (1962)
Dixon-Wanamaker Expedition to Crow Agency (1908)
Eve’s Bayou (1997)
The Girl Without a Soul (1917)
Hair Piece: A Film for Nappy-Headed People (1984)
Hearts and Minds (1974)
Hud (1963)
The Informer (1935)
Jurassic Park (1993)
The Lady From Shanghai (1947)
Leave Her to Heaven (1945)
Monterey Pop (1968)
My Fair Lady (1964)
The Navigator (1924)
On the Town (1949)
One-Eyed Jacks (1961)
Pickup on South Street (1953)
Rebecca (1940)
The Shining (1980)
Smoke Signals (1998)
Something Good – Negro Kiss (1898)
And the official announcement on the National Film Registry site.
The National Film Registry Turns 30!
'Brokeback Mountain,' 'Jurassic Park,' 'My Fair Lady' Among the Titles Added
https://www.loc.gov/item/prn-18-144/library-of-congress-national-film-registry-turns-30/2018-12-12/
"Two contemporary Western dramas headline this year’s list: the 1961 “One-Eyed Jacks,” Marlon Brando’s only directorial endeavor, and Ang Lee’s critically acclaimed “Brokeback Mountain.” Released in 2005, “Brokeback Mountain” also has the distinction of becoming the newest film on the registry while the 1891 “Newark Athlete” is the oldest."
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I want to thank everyone who's sent their nominations to the NFR the past three years!
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^^^^ Amen.. I never thought I'd live long enough to see BBM added to the LoC collection!! Here's to "I wish I knew how to quit you!" V
Vincent, Diana Ossana said over on Facebook that it is the youngest movie to ever make it into the collection. This says so much about this amazing film.
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^^^^ WOW. That sums it up! TY for reminding us to nominate it.
Ossana and Lee must be flying high! I feel *@(*@ vindicated and proud that we ran that Variety Ad all those many years ago now. What a ride. I do not think or have heard of the fans of any film since doing that. V.
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I've rejoined the forum after an absence of several years. I think there used to be a Fan Fiction thread, but I can't find it. Any suggestions on where it might be?
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HI Marc, welcome back. Here's the link
https://ultimatebrokebackforum.com/index.php?board=77.0 (https://ultimatebrokebackforum.com/index.php?board=77.0)
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This is a new article from this year. Most of us already know a lot of what is in the article, but a couple of the things were new to me. Just thought I'd share it.
I Wish I Knew How To Quit You: 10 Behind-The-Scenes About Brokeback Mountain
https://screenrant.com/brokeback-mountain-behind-the-scenes-wish-knew-how-quit-you/
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^^^ very good article. Did not know the last one about Lee's brush with quitting the business before BBM.
Newman and Redford or Cliff would have done well - but there's no way BBM could have been made in 1960's. :(
Damon and Affleck may, just maybe, could have pulled it off...
BTW, the comments on the shirts surprised me. Weren't the shirts donated to The Autry Museum in Griffith Park? https://theautry.org/
I do not recall if they were on loan or became a permanent donation now. I dropped a few photos from that visit there into the link below. Since I do not post photos often, yell if I didn't do it right. The link should take you directly to the folder.
There are some photos of members and one of John. If you do not want me me posting these here, PM and I'll remove them.
https://onedrive.live.com/?authkey=%21AKGFT6ITp469uUM&id=A75411BC0F411E5B%21284716&cid=A75411BC0F411E5B
V.
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^^^
Loved seeing those photos!!!
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Love the article, too!
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^^^ very good article. Did not know the last one about Lee's brush with quitting the business before BBM.
Newman and Redford or Cliff would have done well - but there's no way BBM could have been made in 1960's. :(
Damon and Affleck may, just maybe, could have pulled it off...
BTW, the comments on the shirts surprised me. Weren't the shirts donated to The Autry Museum in Griffith Park? https://theautry.org/
I do not recall if they were on loan or became a permanent donation now. I dropped a few photos from that visit there into the link below. Since I do not post photos often, yell if I didn't do it right. The link should take you directly to the folder.
There are some photos of members and one of John. If you do not want me me posting these here, PM and I'll remove them.
https://onedrive.live.com/?authkey=%21AKGFT6ITp469uUM&id=A75411BC0F411E5B%21284716&cid=A75411BC0F411E5B
V.
Hi Vincent. I hope you are well.
The shirts were only on loan to the Autry by Tom Gregory and I'd heard that he had since taken them back, but I did go to the Autry Museum site and it has a currently on view exhibit that states that the shirts are on view in this exhibit
Ted and Marian Craver
Imagination Gallery
Now on View
The Autry in Griffith Park
Almost every iconic cowboy—including William S. Hart, Bill Pickett, Tom Mix, Gene Autry, Roy Rogers, Duncan Renaldo, James Arness, John Wayne, and Clint Eastwood—is represented in the gallery. Such cowgirls as Patsy Montana, Betty Hutton, and Katharine Hepburn are also represented, as well as artifacts and posters from Thelma and Louise (1991) and the iconic shirts from Brokeback Mountain (2005).
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This is a new article from this year. Most of us already know a lot of what is in the article, but a couple of the things were new to me. Just thought I'd share it.
I Wish I Knew How To Quit You: 10 Behind-The-Scenes About Brokeback Mountain
https://screenrant.com/brokeback-mountain-behind-the-scenes-wish-knew-how-quit-you/
Thanks for sharing this, Auntie. It will be in TDS on Tuesday.
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Thanks Vincent and Lyle.
I'm so glad to see that articles are still being written about Brokeback Mountain even 15 years later.
I am still in contact with Gregory Hinton and he was in the process of trying to get a celebration together to commemorate the 15th anniversary, but I would imagine all the virus ramifications have put this on hold.
Bryon from Mandance was also going to put a program together as well. I still have to speak to him to see what is going to happen.
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^^^ That would be SO awesome, it would be something positive to look forward to during these unknown times.. Gut says things are freezing up for 6 months or more...we can hope for Dec 2020. Everyone, wash your hands, stay safe and stay away from everyone. V
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Yes I know. I was really excited when I talked to both of them about their projected plans.
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^^^^^
The only thing I hadn't heard of before was that Heath refused to go to
"Cowboy Camp". I thought both of them went. Everything I've read about
the movie being made has said that both Heath and Jake attended.
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This isn't to do with BBM, but I've been trying to figure out what this movie was, mentioned in the article:
Paul Newman and his classic cohort Robert Redford were offered the roles of a gay couple in the ‘60s, but they turned it down.
[If someone has Facebook, I don't, could you maybe ask that question in the article's comment section?]
Newman was very interested in playing the coach in The Front Runner, but that never made it to the screen.
Due to it's "of the time it was written" sensibilities, and how things have progressed since, it's likely not going to happen. As a movie anyway.
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This isn't to do with BBM, but I've been trying to figure out what this movie was, mentioned in the article:
Paul Newman and his classic cohort Robert Redford were offered the roles of a gay couple in the ‘60s, but they turned it down.
[If someone has Facebook, I don't, could you maybe ask that question in the article's comment section?]
Newman was very interested in playing the coach in The Front Runner, but that never made it to the screen.
Due to it's "of the time it was written" sensibilities, and how things have progressed since, it's likely not going to happen. As a movie anyway.
That sounds vaguely familiar. Do we know if the movie was ever made with other actors instead of Newman and Redford?
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I found this music video today that I have not seen before. It made me cry.
BROKEBACK MOUNTAIN - Hurt - 2011 "Ennis to Jack"
https://youtu.be/xy0wc0WoS8g
Song: Hurt
Artist: Christina Aguilera
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Jack & Ennis || you can make me whole
https://youtu.be/IWXaDsR2KMQ
Song: Pieces
Artist: Red
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Just a reminder - BBM Filming Begins - 14 Jun 2004... V.
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So long ago, but seems like yesterday.
I can remember the first time I heard about the film, when it won the Golden Lion award.
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https://www.imdb.com/title/tt12798898/
^^^
"Brokeback Mountain 2"
Just found this, I was reading the latest BBM reviews on IMDB.
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:o
I somehow don’t feel very tempted by this - particularly after reading the poor English of the storyline.
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Yeah, I think I'd be skipping that too!
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Is one allowed to use a movie title like that without permission?
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I was wondering about that too.
Is it a parody? If so, perhaps that's allowed.
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The tagline on the poster, We're all gay ...in the old-fashioned way, and the short plot-synopsis, make it sound like some anti-gay thing. The synopsis: A man finds himself alone in the mountains to ponder what happened being separated from his wife and children for years. He finds God and Jesus.
From looking up the name of the "Director/Writer/Star", John Birmingham, he seems like some kind of person like Sascha Baron Cohen, pushing comedic boundaries of taste, but I can't tell from this brief look where his sensibilities lie, but so far this is all very suspicious to me. He seems to have been born in Britain, but moved to Australia.
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I think the Australian John Birmingham is a different bloke. He's odd but he's mostly a writer. He certainly doesn't come from Virginia.
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The tagline on the poster, We're all gay ...in the old-fashioned way, and the short plot-synopsis, make it sound like some anti-gay thing. The synopsis: A man finds himself alone in the mountains to ponder what happened being separated from his wife and children for years. He finds God and Jesus.
From looking up the name of the "Director/Writer/Star", John Birmingham, he seems like some kind of person like Sascha Baron Cohen, pushing comedic boundaries of taste, but I can't tell from this brief look where his sensibilities lie, but so far this is all very suspicious to me. He seems to have been born in Britain, but moved to Australia.
I didn't read this review or story idea, whatever it is. But, I will admit from the brief snippet description that I read above, this guy's story idea sounds really stupid and has nothing to do with the plot of the short story or of Ang Lee's film. This would be like making a movie about a wealthy, middle-age, legally married, heterosexual opposite-sex couple who end up stranded on a desert island after surviving a passenger airplane crash in 1950 and calling it "TITANIC: Part II", which would be a totally stupid, absurd and pointless idea. Ang Lee's "BROKEBACK MOUNTAIN" (2005) doesn't need a sequel and neither does James Cameron's "TITANIC" (1997), in my opinion. They're both great films, again in my opinion. Let both of these movies stand on their own merits.
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This year marks the 15th anniversary of the release of Brokeback Mountain.
I'm not sure if there would be enough interest in this to start it's own thread, but let's be conscious of this date, and post whatever new stories we find about BBM.
I found one tonight.
A Look Back At The 2005 TIFF Premiere Of ‘Brokeback Mountain’
By RACHEL WEST. 10 Sep 2020
“Brokeback Mountain” held its North American premiere in Toronto on Sept. 10, 2005. Take a look back at the late Heath Ledger, Michelle Williams, Jake Gyllenhaal and Anne Hathaway as they made the rounds during the festival. Directed by Ang Lee, the groundbreaking film would later arrive in theatres in Canada on Dec. 23, 2005 before going on to earn eight Academy Award nominations, including Best Picture.
https://etcanada.com/photos/686249/a-look-back-at-the-2005-tiff-premiere-of-brokeback-mountain/#image-686261
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Yes! The seeds of things to come were planted when it premiered at TIFF and it was announced the Winner at the Venice Film Festival!
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The article in The Daily Variety that the forum took out after Brokeback Mountain lost as Best Picture at the Oscars. This was in March 2006.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50350406366_9e2908f233_b.jpg)
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One of the many articles published about the ad that was taken out by the forum.
The New York Times
MEDIA TALK
Upset 'Brokeback' Fans Advertise Their Feelings
By Stuart Elliott
March 13, 2006
Fans of the film "L.A. Confidential" did not take out advertisements in entertainment publications after it lost the best picture Academy Award to "Titanic." It did not happen when "Goodfellas" lost to "Dances With Wolves" or even when "Citizen Kane" lost to "How Green Was My Valley."
But after "Brokeback Mountain" lost the best picture Oscar to "Crash," more than 800 fans -- participants in an online discussion group known as the Ultimate Brokeback Forum -- chipped in more than $24,000 to buy a full-page ad in Daily Variety. The ad, which ran Friday, thanked the makers of the movie "for transforming countless lives through the most honored film of the year."
"I felt we had to do something," said Dave Cullen, a journalist in Denver who bought the ad after setting up several Brokeback sites, at addresses including brokeback.davecullen.com. "People were distraught, upset, angry; they couldn't believe it."
A poster who goes by Texas Girl suggested buying the ad, he said, and after some discussion that they protest the "Crash" victory, the forum participants decided to run "a positive ad."
Charles C. Koones, president and publisher of Daily Variety and Variety, owned by Reed Elsevier, said, " 'Brokeback' really touched a chord with certain audiences. There are those in Hollywood who feel it was robbed." Although his publications have run fan group ads in the past, they typically urged networks not to cancel favorite TV series.
Mr. Cullen said that the Daily Variety ad cost $15,435, adding that contributors were discussing what to do with the leftover money.
Mr. Koones offered this advice: "You need another ad."
STUART ELLIOTT
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Thanks for the additions, Auntie!
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You are more than welcome, Chuck. I still have copies of the Variety Ad complete papers. I also have the Newsweek magazine that has the small article about our ad. I've looked for it online, but can't find it. I need to dig for it in my huge bin that has all my Brokeback stuff in it. If I get a chance I'll dig it out and take a picture of it and post it.
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^^^^ TY.. I SO remember that Ad and our campaign.... It was then and shall always remain special.
Also, don't forget UBF also had a smaller "DVD/Book campaign" delivering DVDs of BBM (or copies of AP's book "Close Range") to as many libraries as possible with funding and gifts. Most I spoke with accepted and many preferred the book b/c they didn't have DVD checkouts. I recall 2 that I spoke with refused either donation and 1 of those was quite ugly about it.
Funny, I traveled near one of the locations ~ 10 years ago and stopped in. I located AP's "Close Range" and sure enough the copy had the notation that it was donated by "The Ultimate Brokeback Forum" inside the front cover. Maybe some of the best things we did in what now feels like eons ago will help some kid find their way in the future. Take Care. Stay safe. Stay alive.
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The article in The Daily Variety that the forum took out after Brokeback Mountain lost as Best Picture at the Oscars. This was in March 2006.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50350406366_9e2908f233_b.jpg)
Hi Linda....it's me...Suely !
Do you know if there were any copies made of this ad ....or posters or anything ?
I would dearly love to own one. I was about a year behind joining this forum
perhaps even longer and at the time knew nothing about the ad. But after seeing
it and after hearing about for so many years now....... I would love a copy/poster
or whatever.
Hope you can help.
Much love to you. xoxo
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Hi Suely,
I'd have to go through my big containers of BBM stuff to see if I have an extra copy or not. I used to have a lot of extra copies, but people asked for them and I mailed some of them to the people. So let me check (it may take some time as my time is not my own during the week due to overseeing my granddaughter's virtual schooling and most of my day is packed), and if I have one I'll mail it to you.
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Suely, here is a PDF version of the ad that can be printed. You can either print it at home but it won't be as big as the ad in the Daily Variety from March 10, 2006, or you can take it to an office supply place and have it printed on larger paper and better quality. Just download the pdf address on a USB flash drive and take it and they will be able to print it for you on larger paper. I'll still look for the original Daily Variety if I have extra copies.
http://www.findingbrokeback.com/Downloads/Ad_Final.pdf
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Auntie to the rescue!
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What the members of the Ultimate Brokeback Forum did with that "Thank You" ad was amazing. You don't really see fans of a film do that very often.
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Lauren sent me a copy of Variety because she knew they'd be hard to get in Australia. Such strong bonds were forged back then.
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NewFest to Feature All-Trans Reading of Brokeback Mountain
BY Trudy Ring - OCTOBER 01 2020
A livestreamed reading of Brokeback Mountain featuring an all-star transgender cast has been added NewFest’s New York LGBTQ Film Festival, which is going virtual this year.
Those playing the lead roles in the script of the beloved 2005 film are Leo Sheng (The L Word) as Ennis, Brian Michael Smith (911: Lone Star) as Jack, Jen Richards (Tales of the City) as Alma, Alexandra Grey (Empire) as Lurleen, and Sam Feder (director of Disclosure) as the narrator. Others in the cast include Mal Blum, Mars Dixon, Theo Germaine, Jordan Gonzalez, Drew Gregory, Vico Ortiz, and Jes Tom.
The event will take place October 18 at 6 p.m. Eastern/3 p.m. Pacific and will be available to stream for free, although donations are suggested. Go here to reserve tickets and get a streaming link; it will also be available to watch on NewFest’s Facebook and YouTube channels, and will be cross-posted by The Advocate.
Funds raised will be split between the NewFest Future Fund, to benefit NewFest and its programs for LGBTQ+ youth, filmmaker resources, and year-round screening programs, and the New York City Anti-Violence Project, currently observing its 40th anniversary. The Anti-Violence Project empowers LGBTQ+ and HIV-affected communities and allies to end all forms of violence through organizing and education, and supports survivors through counseling and advocacy.
https://www.advocate.com/film/2020/10/01/newfest-feature-all-trans-reading-brokeback-mountain
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^^^
I'm afraid I don't see the purpose of things like this.
It was cancelled due to COVID, but there was to be a production of 1776, the musical, this past summer at the Ahmanson Theatre in Los Angeles, comprised of an “entirely female, nonbinary, trans, genderqueer company.”
WHY? Why would I want to see that?
Over the years people have wanted to do productions of Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf?, with an all male cast or even the female characters as men in drag. Edward Albee would not allow any of that to happen. A friend of mine who attended something where Albee was appearing asked him about that and his reply was, "I didn't write it that way."
In the case of 1776, or Hamilton for that matter, history didn't write it that way and I wonder what Annie Proulx would think of this idea for Brokeback Mountain.
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https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/brokeback-mountain-adaptation-star-all-transgender-cast-n1243745
'Brokeback Mountain' adaptation to star all-transgender cast
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One of the stories from TDS this week.
Revisiting: “Brokeback Mountain”
Elijah Robinson
In a country where heterosexual white men rule, there is a certain amount of privilege allotted to lower class white men. This goes back to Bacon’s Rebellion.
Virginia settlers teamed up with different groups of people to rebel against the British upper class. It was an attempt to get the upper class to recognize the interests shared across all classes of people.
As a response to the unrest, slave codes were strengthened, making unity and organization with Virginia colonizers near impossible.
You’re probably thinking: Why is this history lesson in a movie review?
For this instance, it provides a great set up for the exposition in the film. Two ranch hands, wannabe cowboys of the old west struggle make a living. They come from backgrounds that are breeding grounds for unstable masculinity.
Low income households, neglectful families, and constant reminders of their expandability as men, despite the makeup of the county making them look better than that.
Western films like “The Searchers” and “A Fistful of Dollars”, and male icons such as John Wayne, and Clint Eastwood represents the allure of the old west—independent strong white men as protectors, providers, and executors of justice.
https://buffstaterecord.com/14688/showcase/revisiting-brokeback-mountain/
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^^^ IDK how to take the full article. It's being critical of the American Westerns / Frontiers, even the bible (noticed the no caps), so while the writer's intent is most clear (I think) to me , the bulk might be lost-in-publication. V.
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"Why 'Brokeback Mountain' still stuns 15 years later, as a universal love story and LGBTQ triumph"
https://amp.usatoday.com/amp/3851729001
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^^^ OH WOW I had forgotten 09 Dec 2005... how could I not have that date cemented in my memory. IDK maybe it is b/c the film only arrived here in mid-January 2006? Nice article which reflects on the message. Thanks for posting!
""Brokeback Mountain," which arrived in theaters on Dec. 9, 2005, still stuns as a universal love story trapped in an unforgiving, hateful time. Director Ang Lee's film is also worth watching again and again to witness the importance of not merely tolerance, but unquestionable acceptance. "
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Always nice to see BBM remembered and not forgotten!
It's also nice to personally remember the excitement for us who anticipated and then appreciated and then loved this film step by step those first months it was released! It's rare to have such intense movie experiences that last.
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Ah yes, the 15th anniversary of our film!
:)
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Ah yes, the 15th anniversary of our film! :)
I'll put this on my calendar.. as I have the reminder for the "started filming date..." V.
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Every now and then I come across this compilation of special effects that were used in BBM, and it's nice to post them again for those who haven't seen it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPw5plmkd6Q
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I don't know that I've ever seen that before, Fritz!
So Lashawn's hair wasn't a special effect!? ;)
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;D ;D ;D
They hid the scaffolding well.
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^^^ Yeah I saw that a few years back when someone pointed out that many of the gorgeous sky scenes were actually post production - but I didn't mind... it was well worth it.
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15 controversial Oscar wins—and how they’ve aged
Chris Compendio Mar 16, 2021
The 2021 Oscar nominees, announced March 15, featured two women nominated for Best Director for the first time in Academy Award history. Netflix's hit "Mank" nabbed a leading 10 nominations including Best Picture; six nominations apiece went to “The Father,” “Judas and the Black Messiah,” “Minari,” “Nomadland,” “Sound of Metal” and “The Trial of the Chicago 7.”
Regardless of which movies or individuals win a prestigious Academy Award, disagreements are bound to arise among observing critics and viewers of the annual televised Oscars ceremony. Art is inherently subjective and cinema is no exception. But with films being a highly popular and lucrative art form, public scrutiny over major awards is intensified. With the 93rd Academy Awards approaching on April 25, 2021, Stacker revisits some of the most controversial Oscar wins in the history of these award ceremonies.
The most common source of controversy over Oscar winners is that viewers believe there were better contenders that year. While the Oscars can be criticized as predictable by viewers, some award winners pulled upsets that put the voting process by the Academy into doubt. Awards season campaigning has been prevalent in recent decades, leading the cynical to believe that the Oscars are given out as a result of producers shaking hands with voters behind the scenes rather than objective quality.
Other times, personal factors may weigh in on observers' unease with Oscar wins. These factors may include tumultuous production drama, misdeeds by actors or filmmakers, or controversial public statements. These Oscar wins have spurred on discussions of separating the artist and the art and debates over how Oscar winners are chosen. Issues of diversity, sexual conduct, and filmmaking standards are among the most discussed points.
Sometimes, an Oscar win may not be seen as controversial at its time but could be seen as questionable in retrospect. Some films tend to age less well with audiences due to changing social norms in the present day compared to different cultural standards in the past. In other cases, the wrongdoings of individuals involved in these films have since been unearthed or have resurfaced after such a win.
Keep reading to learn more about some of the most highly criticized Oscar wins, and how they've aged.
https://www.elkharttruth.com/lifestyles/entertainment/15-controversial-oscar-wins-and-how-they-ve-aged/collection_026264ab-ee1f-550e-a896-593060d1506a.html#2
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Landscape as Metaphor in 'Brokeback Mountain'
Aurora Amidon - December 8, 2020
Brokeback Mountain is not a landscape film. Rather, it’s a film that begins in the great outdoors, specifically the beautiful, idyllic mountains of Wyoming, but does everything it can to warn the viewer that it is not, in fact, your typical romantic, grandiose landscape film. Instead of being shot as a classical landscape, these western acres are presented as the anti-landscape.
And, perhaps that’s what Brokeback Mountain is: the anti-landscape film. When we see the area surrounding our protagonists, young cowboys Jack Twist (Jake Gyllenhaal) and Ennis del Mar (Heath Ledger), we only see parts of it. A cluster of sheep, a campfire, a rippling lake. But we never get that sweeping establishing shot that we might have been expecting. And this limited, constricted viewpoint ultimately sets the tone for the remainder of the film.
Throughout the 2005 drama, director Ang Lee and his DP, Rodrigo Prieto, use a device that is unconventional when it comes to landscape photography: the long lens. When setting a story in and around a landscape, filmmakers predominantly extend the scenery to the very edge of their frame. Take, for instance, Lawrence of Arabia (1962), or The Revenant (2015). Both films use extremely wide lenses to include as much landscape information as possible. But, as far as cinematography goes, Brokeback Mountain’s camera does something subversive and different.
The function of a long lens is that it compresses the space within a shot. One could indeed achieve the exact same-distanced shot with a shorter lens that is situated closer to its subject, but that would provide a very different outcome.
https://filmschoolrejects.com/brokeback-mountain-landscape-as-metaphor/
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Yeap... BBM losing to the film that shall not be namee, will be one of the Academy's darkest and worst moments which they will never live down. In many ways, it will always be immortalized.
"The win is often remembered as one of the Academy's "biggest mistakes," with the film's depiction of race relations considered now more than ever to be outdated and based on stereotypes. The film's director Paul Haggis even considers the film to be unworthy of the honor."
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Keep reading to learn more about some of the most highly criticized Oscar wins, and how they've aged.
https://www.elkharttruth.com/lifestyles/entertainment/15-controversial-oscar-wins-and-how-they-ve-aged/collection_026264ab-ee1f-550e-a896-593060d1506a.html#2
Although he's right about BBM's year, take articles like this with a grain of salt, I always say.
The article did talk about the highly criticized Oscar wins, but not so much about how they've aged for most of the choices.
A lot of movie articles like this are written as fact, but we have no idea where the supposed "facts" come from. Know your sources!
For example, in the awarding of Out of Africa Best Picture he writes, "Even today, critics are baffled by how "Out of Africa" took the top spot that night, especially over Steven Spielberg's adaptation of "The Color Purple."
No one was "baffled that night." Out of Africa had been awarded the majority of all the Best Picture prizes that year before the Oscars and it was the front runner on Oscar night. And of the major critic's groups that award Best Film prizes that did not choose Out of Africa, the L.A. Film Critics, for example, chose BRAZIL as Best Picture and the New York Film Critics chose PRIZZI'S HONOR. In fact, The Color Purple didn't win any of its nominations. So saying "especially over The Color Purple" is from the current woke perspective based on the idea that it wasn't awarded because of racial bias or animus. The Best Picture nominees that year were also all quite good. At the time, my favorite was WITNESS, but over the years I've gravitated more toward KISS OF THE SPIDER WOMAN. Of course, most of the United States' favorite film that year (and STILL a favorite) was not Best Picture nominated: BACK TO THE FUTURE!
And about another controversy he writes: Hattie McDaniel was only allowed into the ceremony upon the intervention of the film's producers. Even then, McDaniel was seated away from the rest of the creative team at a segregated table, making this historic win also an example today of the ugly racial history of the country.
Not true: Hattie McDaniel had an invitation to the awards that night. I think the author gets his info from the HOLLYWOOD mini-series which has Hattie stopped from entering the awards while someone says they might let her in if she wins. That was also bogus because many in the audience, including Hattie, already knew she'd won. Yes, segregation was in practice back then...the author says she sat at a segregated table. I'm not sure what that means, but she was sitting with some white men.
Source: From the biography by Jill Watts called "Hattie McDaniel: Black Ambition, White Hollywood" (Harper Collins , 2005): "Additionally, Hattie McDaniel, became the first African-American to attend the awards ceremony. But there was another first in store. The word was out. The Los Angeles Times, privy to advance information, had leaked the names of the winners in its late edition. Many of those gathering already knew what the ceremony would only make formal--Hattie McDaniel would be the first African-American to win an Oscar...Cameras flashed as she made her way to the ballroom, exquisitely dressed in a tasteful, rhinestone studded aqua blue evening gown, white ermine jacket and a beautiful corsage of white gardenias. As she entered the Coconut Grove and made her way to the table, the crowd of almost 1,700 members of the Hollywood film colony broke into a resounding applause. She and Yoder were seated with a white man (possibly William Meiklejohn, or one of his representatives), at their own table, placed at the periphery of the room but near the stage where the awards would be given. Even on this evening of Hollywood firsts segregation remained the rule...But Variety reported that she was so overcome that she left the speech at her seat. The oversight allowed McDaniel to speak on her own. Instead of delivering the speech prepared by Selznick's staff, praising the producer, the actress, with the help of Ruby Berkley Goodwin, had worked up her own remarks. Although they were hardly revolutionary, they did not belong to a white writer."
I like sources on articles written about Oscar awards because so much of them are usually a mix of gossip, facts and assumptions. And this stuff perpetuates false notions. Example: He writes about Green Book, that it "had already received extensive criticism before the Oscars rolled around. The family of Ali's character, jazz pianist Don Shirley, condemned the film."
Actually, what Don Shirley's family had condemned is the fact they were not consulted. The family felt they were entitled to some kind of money and they didn't get it and so they began bad mouthing the film. So did Spike Lee, because, well, he's Spike Lee and his film was in competition. Shirley's family began spreading the word that Don Shirley was not friends with Nick Villalonga as the film portrays. That notion might have stayed around with some people if someone hadn't found an old documentary where Don Shirley was interviewed and says on film that he and Villalonga were good friends.
I could go on about a couple other things the author writes, but what he said about BBM is accurate and I know a thing or two about that! Heh!
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100 Best Western films of all time, according to critics
By: Jane Garfinkel - 03/24/2021
For decades in America, the most popular movie genre was the Western. Audiences loved gun-slinging sheriffs, dashing outlaws, thundering cattle drives, horseback pursuits, and majestic landscapes. More Westerns were produced in the 1950s than all other movie genres combined, but while they have attracted smaller crowds since then, they still have a persistent appeal.
Early Westerns set the standard with cowboys played by the likes of Gary Cooper and John Wayne, and spaghetti Westerns, products of the Italian film industry in the ’60s and ’70s, starred box-office draws like Henry Fonda and Clint Eastwood. More recent Westerns have been romantic and thoughtful like “Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid,” “Dances With Wolves,” and “Brokeback Mountain.”
Stacker compiled the 100 best Western films of all time using data from Metacritic, a site that collects reviews from respected critics and uses them to determine the average rating. Whether you’re a longtime movie fan checking in on your favorites, or new to the genre, there are films on this list for you.
https://www.wtnzfox43.com/story/43545457/100-best-western-films-of-all-time-according-to-critics
Ang Lee is on twice (Ride With The Devil & Brokeback Mountain) and Michelle Williams has been in two of the movies on the list (Brokeback Mountain and Meek's Cutoff)
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Hello! I do not know where to post this but I just read that Larry McMurtry passed away on March 25th at the age of 84. The New York Times had an article about this on March 26th: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/26/books/larry-mcmurtry-dead.html
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Definitely a great loss. Thanks to him for BBM and also for Lonesome Dove, one of my favorites.
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R.I.P. Larry McMurtry (1936 - 2021), co-screenwriter of BBM and author of two of my favourite books, Terms of Endearment and Lonesome Dove, among others. My condolences to his family and friends.
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R.I.P. Larry McMurtry (1936 - 2021), co-screenwriter of BBM and author of two of my favourite books, Terms of Endearment and Lonesome Dove, among others. My condolences to his family and friends.
Rest in peace, Larry McMurtry. Thanks for cowriting the excellent screenplay to Ang Lee's "Brokeback Mountain" (2005) that film wouldn't have been what it was without your creative input.
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100 Best Western films of all time, according to critics
By: Jane Garfinkel - 03/24/2021
For decades in America, the most popular movie genre was the Western. Audiences loved gun-slinging sheriffs, dashing outlaws, thundering cattle drives, horseback pursuits, and majestic landscapes. More Westerns were produced in the 1950s than all other movie genres combined, but while they have attracted smaller crowds since then, they still have a persistent appeal.
Early Westerns set the standard with cowboys played by the likes of Gary Cooper and John Wayne, and spaghetti Westerns, products of the Italian film industry in the ’60s and ’70s, starred box-office draws like Henry Fonda and Clint Eastwood. More recent Westerns have been romantic and thoughtful like “Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid,” “Dances With Wolves,” and “Brokeback Mountain.”
Stacker compiled the 100 best Western films of all time using data from Metacritic, a site that collects reviews from respected critics and uses them to determine the average rating. Whether you’re a longtime movie fan checking in on your favorites, or new to the genre, there are films on this list for you.
https://www.wtnzfox43.com/story/43545457/100-best-western-films-of-all-time-according-to-critics
Ang Lee is on twice (Ride With The Devil & Brokeback Mountain) and Michelle Williams has been in two of the movies on the list (Brokeback Mountain and Meek's Cutoff)
It's nice to know that Ang Lee and his theatrical film adaptation of "Brokeback Mountain" (2005) are acknowledged as notable contributions within the Western film genre. I can still remember all that controversy about "the gay cowboy movie" because Lee's film challenged the rather stereotypical notion of the cowboy being this gun-slinging hero who smokes and drinks alcoholic beverages like crazy, and always manages to save a pretty woman from being hassled by an overweight bully looking to overtake a small town, or is kicking the shit out of "savage" Native Americans? Ang Lee's film also helped portray cowboys as everyday people who work hard, some who have very little education and who generally don't have as many financial or material resources at their disposal. They're just trying to make a living.
The film challenged common notions concerning masculinity, the American West, homosexuality, working women, marriage, and unfulfilled desires and dreams. The movie never provided any real or easy answers to its questions, and leaves much up to the viewer's own imagination. I think that is part of its appeal. It was so important to the LGBT community because it portrayed two gay men in a way that hadn't been seen before, or at least very rarely. They weren't Broadway musical-loving, effeminate crossdressers who obsessed over Judy Garland who never seemed to have any sexual intercourse going on. Jack Twist and Ennis Del Mar are hardworking, struggle to get by financially and materially, at least until Jack gets a good-paying job by marrying into a wealthy family. Both guys are incredibly good-looking, masculine men who realize that the love of their life is another man but they live in a world and in a society that doesn't accept such relationships. They feel lust for each other, yes, but they are in love with each other but they can't acknowledge that fact to one another, much less to themselves being so repressed and being told that their feelings for one another is "wrong" according to society's ridiculous standards.
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Hello everyone.
I hope that everyone is doing well.
As you all know, Larry McMurtry recently passed away.
I have just posted the latest issue of TDS, which is dedicated in his memory. Aside from a bio (taken from Wikipedia) I have also included two links. One that links to a special post we had called "Meet The Creators" where he answered some questions posed to him, similar to the list Brian Linton would ask guests on "Inside The Actor's Studio".
There is also a list to the recently reopened thread we have for discussion on Larry McMurtry and his books.
Please feel free to read this special issue of TDS here https://ultimatebrokebackforum.com/index.php?topic=49516.new#new and then drop by the Larry McMurtry thread, and let us know about your feelings to his works!
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Ang Lee to be honoured with BAFTA Fellowship
Ang Lee will be honoured with the BAFTA Fellowship at this weekend's BAFTA Film Awards Ceremony in London.
The 66-year-old director will be recognised for his contribution to film during the ceremony on Sunday (11.04.21).
Ang rose to prominence with the Taiwanese comedy trilogy 'Pushing Hands', 'The Wedding Banquet' and 'Eat Drink Man Woman' before making his English language debut on the 1995 adaptation of the Jane Austen 'Sense and Sensibility', which starred Dame Emma Thompson and Hugh Grant and won the BAFTA Award for Best Film.
Lee's other acclaimed movies include the martial arts flick 'Crouching Tiger', the ground-breaking love story 'Brokeback Mountain' and the epic drama 'Life of Pi' – the latter two films saw him win the Academy Award for Best Director.
Read the full story at https://www.film-news.co.uk/news/UK/85162/Ang-Lee-to-be-honoured-with-BAFTA-Fellowship
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Ang Lee receives BAFTA Fellowship
Ang Lee has won just about every award on offer – including two best director Oscars – and on Sunday received a BAFTA Fellowship, the organisation’s highest honour.
Accepting the award, he said: “I’m humbled to be counted amongst such brilliant filmmakers. It’s overwhelming.
“England has been particularly good to me in my career. Britain was the only market where The Ice Storm made any money.
“And of course, Sense And Sensibility, which was like a second film school for me – I could only communicate in short sentences.
“The comments I gave the actors were very concise, direct and honest. The casuals competing to see who would get the most rude remark from me.
“But my British colleagues were super-patient and kind to me. I owe so much to them because after Sense And Sensibility, I dared to venture into many other types of movies"......
Read the full press report at https://www.gazetteherald.co.uk/leisure/national-entertainment/19225664.bafta-fellowship-latest-honour-director-ang-lees-career/
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Wonderful news about Ang Lee!
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Hello! I'm not sure if there's already a song/playlist thread, but I wanted to share this one that I came up with. Credits to some of the BBM-inspired playlists and another forum I'm part of. Luckily my folks were born in the 60s so I grew up listening to a number of the other artists I added here.
Enjoy!
https://open.spotify.com/playlist/4OeelPP7KQs5X1I9co58IE?si=28fc6fda40cc4fb8
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Thanks for sharing this! There are some interesting songs on that playlist!
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Regina, are you familiar with "Meet Me On The Mountain"? You can find this on Spotify.
MEET ME ON THE MOUNTAIN: Brokeback Inspires Composer Shawn Kirchner - A Music Review
By
Meryl Ann Butler
(https://ultimatebrokebackforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi275.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fjj282%2FSanFranciscoJohn%2Fmeet-me-on-the-mountain-1820-20080226-131.jpg&hash=3cd073a46e3bdf6e3d21f0030a0797eccdfa9897)
The poetic lyrics and poignant melodies on Shawn Kirchner’s new CD, Meet Me on the Mountain, captured my heart the first time I heard them. The songs are a mix of foot-stompin’ bluegrass, polished country, and soulful folk, inspired by the film, Brokeback Mountain.
Annie Proulx’s short story by the same name first appeared in The New Yorker in 1997. Later, it was adapted into an Oscar-winning screenplay by Diana Ossana and Larry McMurtry, triggering heartfelt responses from around the world.
Kirchner’s songs offer an added dimension of emotional depth to the scenes and characters that inspired them. Yet the songs also stand solidly on their own, as Kirchner has carefully crafted both music and lyrics to be independent of the famous story.
Anyone who has ever loved someone who was outside the confines of socially acceptable partners is bound to be particularly touched by this music.
Lead singer, Ryan Harrison, weaves his melodies around the listener’s heart with a numinous and evocative voice; rich, strong and captivating. The vocals are supported by superb instrumentation, including some mighty fancy fiddlin’ by Gabe Witcher, and the mesmerizing tones of Tommy Morgan’s harmonica.
Three of the eleven tracks are tender love songs, including Last Stand, a warm outpouring of affection that deserves a place in the annals of the great love songs. The title track, Meet Me On the Mountain, is timeless, and lingers wistfully in the soul. The toe-tappin’, I’ll Be On My Way, celebrates the continuity of life with optimism and hope. And the four songs for female leads insightfully explore the range of emotions of the women caught in these unexpected love triangles.
Los Angeles City Councilman, Bill Rosendahl, a champion of equal rights, calls Meet Me on the Mountain, “warm, inviting, soothing, positive and healing!” and says, “Hats off to this album, it's just beautiful!!"
Vice President and co-founder of New York’s ASCIA [1] (A Small Company in America), Penelope Herdt Grover, says,
“The music is incredible. The players are amazing and the harmonies so tight! The balance between the vocals and the instruments is perfect!
“All of the songs are beautiful, and some made me cry. The lyric, ‘all I could see, was you turning into a stranger, right in front of me,’ really struck a nerve. Up All Night is haunting. And the production quality is so high, I could only think that I was listening to the recording of a Broadway musical.”
Proulx’s story, set in 1963, includes a flashback to a homophobic hate-crime set in the era of the 1950s. Sadly, nearly half a century later, the brutal 1998 murder of 21-year old Matthew Shepard [2] exposed society’s lack of progress in the areas of tolerance and acceptance. A decade later, in February, 2008, California 8th-grader Lawrence King [3] was shot in the head by a 14-year-old fellow student, allegedly murdered because of his sexual orientation and gender expression.
It is often left to the creative arts to bring society to its senses. Inspiring examples of the arts at work include the books, South Pacific, The Diary of Anne Frank, and To Kill a Mockingbird, along with the shows and hit movies based on them. Each of these stories contributed toward erasing prejudice and coaching society to becoming a more supportive and nurturing community. Like these works of art, I envision Kirchner’s songs contributing toward opening hearts to more of the humane behaviors that are worthy of being called “civilization.”
Meet Me On the Mountain is Shawn Kirchner’s “break-out” CD as a songwriter, and what a debut! This is a musical love story that is sure to pluck your heartstrings and warm your soul. There’s no doubt that it’s going to skyrocket, and what a delight it is to be among the first to discover this treasure.
Shawn Kirchner’s Meet Me On the Mountain is available at www.CDbaby.com and on iTunes.
MORE INFO ON THE MUSICIANS:
(https://ultimatebrokebackforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi275.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fjj282%2FSanFranciscoJohn%2Fshawn-kirchner--songwriter--back-1820-20080226-132.jpg&hash=e726790ebf2e0b1e7fab6ae51410f5a1ffcfbbce)
Shawn Kirchner, songwriter, backup vocals, piano.
Meet Me on the Mountain composer, Shawn Kirchner, is a choral composer/arranger and a singer/pianist in the classical music circles of Los Angeles. A member of L.A.’s premiere professional chorus, the Los Angeles Master Chorale, he performs regularly with the Chorale and the Los Angeles Philharmonic at Disney Hall and the Hollywood Bowl. His musical compositions have been performed by choirs across the country and around the world, in schools, churches, concert halls, and on television, radio, and on YouTube. He has sung on a number of feature film soundtracks, and was the music director for the 2004 CBS Christmas Eve special, Enter the Light of Life.
In addition to composing the music and writing the lyrics of Meet Me on the Mountain, Shawn Kirchner accompanies on piano, and sings backup vocals. www.shawnkirchner.com
For this CD, Kirchner collected a stunning array of musical talent from the Los Angeles area:
SINGERS:
(https://ultimatebrokebackforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi275.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fjj282%2FSanFranciscoJohn%2Fkaren-harper-1820-20080226-135.jpg&hash=3ca05e4f3b88198037c40b4ef70da07676c85747)
Karen Harper
Tennessee native Karen Harper (lead singer) was born into a musical family immersed in jazz, classical, and gospel music, and she began singing professionally at a young age. Since relocating to Los Angeles, she has acquired an extensive list of credits for television, film, and live performances, including singing on albums with Randy Newman and Harry Connick, Jr.
(https://ultimatebrokebackforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi275.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fjj282%2FSanFranciscoJohn%2Fryan-harrison-1820-20080226-133.jpg&hash=1d9531e14f86ed1cdc157fb9df0ab473a7ce06fe)
Ryan Harrison
Ryan Harrison (lead singer) is an award-winning vocalist and songwriter whose versatility makes him at home in a wide range of styles, from country and gospel to pop and jazz. He was a featured soloist in the CBS Christmas Eve special Enter the Light of Life that was broadcast nationally in 2004, and he has performed across the United States and abroad. In addition to Meet Me on the Mountain, Ryan has sung on numerous recordings, including another 2008 release, his own pop album, It's True.
(https://ultimatebrokebackforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi275.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fjj282%2FSanFranciscoJohn%2Falice-kirwan-murray-1820-20080326-146.jpg&hash=6595a1f4fd1080180978e663f7fc740815857033)
Alice Kirwan Murray
Alice Kirwan Murray (lead singer) began her diverse singing career in Chicago, where she was a member of the Chicago Symphony Chorus, the Oriana Singers and the award-winning western swing band, Luke and the Cool Hands. She also sang on several soundtracks for feature films, albums, and commercials for television and radio. Alice starred in the long-running, Chicago production of Always...Patsy Cline. A resident of Los Angeles for the past decade, she has been a soloist and ensemble member with the LA Master Chorale, the Grammy Award-winning Los Angeles Chamber Singers & Cappella, and the Carmel Bach Festival.
http://www.opednews.com/articles/life_a_meryl_an_080326_meet_me_on_the_mount.htm (http://www.opednews.com/articles/life_a_meryl_an_080326_meet_me_on_the_mount.htm)
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Thoughts? Interesting analysis posted recently.
1) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVUg4zGUvXw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVUg4zGUvXw)
2) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FS2ctfWYAiE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FS2ctfWYAiE)
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Looking Back at Brokeback Mountain
By Joe Leydon - 12/6/2021
In a 2006 interview, Oscar-winning screenwriters Larry McMurtry and Diana Ossana discuss their roles in bringing the Annie Proulx short story to the screen.
On this date in 2005, Brokeback Mountain — the acclaimed and controversial romantic tragedy about two cowboys bound by a love they felt compelled to hide — premiered in New York. The film, which featured Jake Gyllenhaal and the late Heath Ledger in the lead roles, went on to win three Academy Awards: Best Director (Ang Lee), Original Score (Gustavo Santaolalla) — and Best Adapted Screenplay, written by Larry McMurtry and Diana Ossana. In early 2006, we spoke with McMurtry (who passed away earlier this year) and Ossana, who also won a Golden Globe for their script. Here are some highlights from our conversation.
https://www.cowboysindians.com/2021/12/looking-back-at-brokeback-mountain/
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^^^ Good short read. There’s a YT vid of Proulx (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VpCaQSRwdd0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VpCaQSRwdd0) telling the story of being in that bar and watching the older man. There’s a scene in BBM, while not the same, it harkens to that source and her story.
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This short about special effects used in our movie is from several years ago, but there may be some for whom it's new.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPw5plmkd6Q
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thanks for the link, Fritzie!
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https://cultivatedknowledge.com/entertainment/the-25-greatest-western-films-of-all-time/10/
I was just idly clicking links and this item appeared...
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Now, I must admit, I never thought of Brokeback as a western, but I guess it is.
I considered it more of a romance/drama with western elements.
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^^^ What? Everyone knows - BBM is a "gay cowboy movie!" How can BBM not be a western with handsome cowboys in starring roles? Nice though, I'll take it b/c to even make a "western list"...is refreshing. ;) ::) :laugh: V.
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Now, I must admit, I never thought of Brokeback as a western, but I guess it is.
I considered it more of a romance/drama with western elements.
Well, the genre Western could cover various categories of films, I suppose.
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^^^ What? Everyone knows - BBM is a "gay cowboy movie!" How can BBM not be a western with handsome cowboys in starring roles? Nice though, I'll take it b/c to even make a "western list"...is refreshing. ;) ::) :laugh: V.
Exactly. I mean Jack and Ennis definitely identify with cowboy culture, so why not? Just because they don't fight violent Native American tribes nor do they save a pretty woman who was tied up to a train track by a bad guy who is angry that she won't return his affections, and just because Ennis and Jack don't rescue a whole town from an evil prospector...that doesn't mean they're not cowboys.
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https://www.nbcnews.com/nbc-out/out-community-voices/lgbtq-facebook-support-group-offers-stand-families-major-life-events-rcna9868
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I recently saw this photo taken in West Hollywood in 1965.
This is at Sunset Blvd. and Horn Avenue and also where Holloway intersects with them. If you swung around 180° in 1965 you'd see the relatively new "Tower Records." The area where the Texaco Station is located is now a Coffee Bean. Above it on the hill is where Spago's was previously located and where, in 1942, a gay nightclub called Café Gala was located and lasted well into the 1950's. (I wrote about it before somewhere.) The area where the Sands Motor Hotel is located is now a parking lot.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CMoqg5WUsAA06bn?format=jpg&name=small)
But I noticed something else interesting in the photograph that made me want to post it somewhere on the forum here. What am I referring to?
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The beautiful 1953 Studebaker Commander?
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Oops! Now I see it! I'll wait. Very Brokie!
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;D
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Yep, so did I!! You have to make the pic a little bigger to see it though!
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lmao! I see it!!!!
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I recently saw this photo taken in West Hollywood in 1965.
This is at Sunset Blvd. and Horn Avenue and also where Holloway intersects with them. If you swung around 180° in 1965 you'd see the relatively new "Tower Records." The area where the Texaco Station is located is now a Coffee Bean. Above it on the hill is where Spago's was previously located and where, in 1942, a gay nightclub called Café Gala was located and lasted well into the 1950's. (I wrote about it before somewhere.) The area where the Sands Motor Hotel is located is now a parking lot.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CMoqg5WUsAA06bn?format=jpg&name=small)
I was wrong about the famous Sunset Blvd. Tower Records store being there in 1965. It did not open until 1971! In 1965 there was a Muntz 8-Track Player store there and Muntz would install the players in your car--your new Mustangs!
In the photography world, people know the name of a famous photographer, Ed Ruscha. In 1966 he published a book titled Every Building on the Sunset Strip. He had gone up and down both sides of Sunset Blvd. with a tripod camera mounted on his vehicle photographing it from one end to the other. Long out of print, the book had been selling at auctions and online for hundreds, if not thousands of dollars. A little over a year ago a lot of his work was digitized and much of this photography now available to view online. I just looked up this area and here's a couple photos of this location. First, just because, the Muntz store:
(https://media.getty.edu/iiif/image/25f2127a-fe03-4df1-a2a3-417414326f99/full/512,/0/default.jpg)
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Then a photo showing Texaco and the area above where Café Gala (Jewish patrons called if Cafagelah; true! ;D) had been located...the St. Genesius Restaurant in 1966.
(https://media.getty.edu/iiif/image/64261cec-26ad-43c4-9916-5579e2a72ac1/full/512,/0/default.jpg)
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Then the two best photos showing the Sands Motor Hotel Coffee Shop Restaurant Sign!
(https://media.getty.edu/iiif/image/3a7ada32-8402-4ab9-8a43-07ec747d8878/full/512,/0/default.jpg)
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(https://media.getty.edu/iiif/image/e5de71ce-c676-4fd7-9e51-b2a6babad0e8/full/512,/0/default.jpg)
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But I noticed something else interesting in the photograph that made me want to post it somewhere on the forum here. What am I referring to?
I notice it too! :laugh: :laugh:
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^^^ uncle. I enlarged that photo... and well I dont' connect the dots unless it's something to do with the photos on the wall in the Muntz shop?
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An interesting article linking two movies to a silent movie star.
https://www.slashfilm.com/750226/what-queer-westerns-the-power-of-the-dog-and-brokeback-mountain-owe-to-a-silent-movie-star/
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An interesting article linking two movies to a silent movie star.
https://www.slashfilm.com/750226/what-queer-westerns-the-power-of-the-dog-and-brokeback-mountain-owe-to-a-silent-movie-star/
You must be psychic, I have that as the lead story for TDS tomorrow.
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Woo woo!
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I'll list you as a contributor this week. ;D
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Fritz and Chuck, thanks... It was interesting for me to read an article like this from someone who really liked The Power of the Dog, as I was not as receptive to it. I enjoyed reading her article about it much much more, though!
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^^^ uncle. I enlarged that photo... and well I dont' connect the dots unless it's something to do with the photos on the wall in the Muntz shop?
Vincent, Lyle was talking about the very first color photo.
In the photo, the name of the cafe for the Sands Sunset Motor Hotel is the "Knife and Fork".
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I'll list you as a contributor this week. ;D
Yay!
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Vincent, Lyle was talking about the very first color photo.
In the photo, the name of the cafe for the Sands Sunset Motor Hotel is the "Knife and Fork".
LOL.. well no wonder I could not "see it" TY! Hmm, all the photos I see Lyle posted are B/W so 2x why.. ;) Maybe I just don't have a clue what photos you guys are examining! ;) V.
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^^^^ Holy *@(*@* Fritz and Chuck, THAT is a profound article! Chilling:
"What "Brokeback Mountain" did was make a Tragic Queer movie relevant to straight people, personally. It's not just about what living in a homophobic society does to queer people, but what them being trapped in that society does to their wives, their parents, their kids. What "The Power of the Dog" says is even more to the point: if you deny yourself to yourself, you will end up twisted and warped and dead, and the world will be a better place without you in it. Conversely, if you accept yourself for who you are, you can save your mother's life as well as your own."
"but the simple fact is that loving and caring relationships don't leave people going through life like Phil, even when they end tragically. Ennis' desperate longing for Jack was reciprocated in full and the two of them were on equal footing, despite Ennis being the emotional equivalent of a blocking chute and Jack having all the self-preservation of an elk in rut."
V.
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LOL.. well no wonder I could not "see it" TY! Hmm, all the photos I see Lyle posted are B/W so 2x why.. ;) Maybe I just don't have a clue what photos you guys are examining! ;) V.
This picture. Enlarge it and you will see the sign for the "Knife and Fork".
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CMoqg5WUsAA06bn?format=jpg&name=small)
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^^^ Sorry, all I see is "This picture..."... and there's no accompanying photo or link? Maybe that's why I was "lost".. ;) No worries. V.
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Vincent, it was at this link:
https://twitter.com/alisonmartino/status/633365447920873472
See if this works for you.
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^^^^ 10-4 Now I see the color photo and "Knife and Fork"... TY! V.
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This picture. Enlarge it and you will see the sign for the "Knife and Fork".
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CMoqg5WUsAA06bn?format=jpg&name=small)
That was a REAL PLACE??!
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Yup, there was a real place.
I wonder if they served beans? ;)
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Has anyone seen this fan made music video before? was new to me.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=di666Q5xvhY&ab_channel=MermaidMotel
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New to me too.
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Has anyone seen this fan made music video before? was new to me.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=di666Q5xvhY&ab_channel=MermaidMotel
It's new to me as well, Chuck. Thanks for finding it. It was published on YT 10 months ago. I just read some of the comments and so many of the commenters had just seen the movie for the first time, others wanted to know the name of the movie. All experienced first time emotions and sadness.
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I didn't even read the comments! LOL Thanks for that info, Auntie!
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Beautiful song.
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I still search "Brokeback" on YouTube from time to time, and see if there are any new fan vids.
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For your viewing pleasure.
https://ultimatebrokebackforum.com/index.php?topic=23626.msg3042521#msg3042521
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^^^
I also love reading a lot of the comments on that one. (Not always the case in some comment sections that get hijacked.)
The video brings back the time to me when the movie came out and how exciting that was. We can forget about that sometimes.
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^^^^^ Thanks Chuck. I responded to it over in the Affected Me thread.
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^^^
I also love reading a lot of the comments on that one. (Not always the case in some comment sections that get hijacked.)
The video brings back the time to me when the movie came out and how exciting that was. We can forget about that sometimes.
Yes, you're right about that! I can remember at a Brokie meeting once, we talked about how we could be at a different move, and the Focus Features logo and intro could come on, and we'd mentally go back to Brokeback.
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Just found this video, but it was posted 4 months ago.
"Behind the scenes" of Brokeback Mountain filming.
I would assume this has been seen before, but in case it's new to anyone, I'm adding it here.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyTDWP6MvHM
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It's a new one on me, thanks!
Also this one about BBM locations.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TcifZmvTokU
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Very cool, Fritzie! Thanks for posting that!
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I posted a link about the Finding Brokeback website in the comments, as well as one to this Forum.
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^^^ TY for posting those two links! I have not seen them before now.
> The "Behind the Scenes" is a nice montage of clips made while shooting on the sets. I'm glad it has survived. There are some really good takes though much of the dialog is difficult. It looks like it might have been made with a VHS recorder in tandem on many of the sets.
> The "Brokeback Locations" is good to see references when comparing them in 2021 to the sites as they appeared both in the film then and have been documented on "Finding Brokeback" various years. Studying these together helps understand the ravages of time but with a twist as the 2021 YT version is taken at a very different time of year - Winter.
> Many of the locations still exists but many have also closed due to COVID19.
Of them all, the "Twists homeplace" has fallen into terrible state since filming, and when the FB photos were made. Clearly, people have been "abusive" to the Twist homeplace - no doubt b/c it is abandoned and more likely because it's a "better known than most" location from the film. Holes punched in walls, plywood torn off the entrances, water intrusions, plaster and lathing exposed and broken.
However, uniquely, the corner where Jack saved his and Ennis' shirt remains. Clearly recognizable. So is window Ennis raised and then sat at before he found the shirts. The cast iron radiator is a clear marker in that room. Much else is difficult. The stairs, the kitchen counters and window/door locations are clues to orientate yourself.
Worthy of a viewing. TY! and be sure to "Thank" the YT posters. V.
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Some more links on YouTube to location shots, from Summer 2007.
https://ultimatebrokebackforum.com/index.php?topic=22685.msg1005912#msg1005912
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Fritz - TY for posting that link - I had forgotten. Great collection!
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Thanks Fritzie!
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So what's the feeling around this this BBM video backed by "Visions of Gideon"? I did a double-take. It's like my brain was trying to reconcile these and was struggling. Thoughts?
-> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXwK3cS8AEg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXwK3cS8AEg)
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I hope it's okay to post this here, I co-host a podcast about bi/queer movies and we recently did an episode on Brokeback Mountain. We had a guest on who's a lifelong Brokeback fan and suggested sharing the episode here. I know the forum has rules against commercial promotion, but we honestly don't make much money on the show haha. We just do it because we love queer movies! If it sounds at all interesting, here's a link to the episode: anchor.fm/snails-and-oysters/episodes/Brokeback-Mountain-with-Michelle-Hsu-e1heif0
Sorry for the intrusion!
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So what's the feeling around this this BBM video backed by "Visions of Gideon"? I did a double-take. It's like my brain was trying to reconcile these and was struggling. Thoughts?
-> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXwK3cS8AEg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXwK3cS8AEg)
I think I feel like you do Vincent. I watched it and then watched it again, and even as I was hearing the song and seeing the video, I kept seeing the video of CMBYN and not the BBM video. It's when I hear the 2 note beginning of BBM, if I hear it in another setting, all I can see is BBM.
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I hope it's okay to post this here, I co-host a podcast about bi/queer movies and we recently did an episode on Brokeback Mountain. We had a guest on who's a lifelong Brokeback fan and suggested sharing the episode here. I know the forum has rules against commercial promotion, but we honestly don't make much money on the show haha. We just do it because we love queer movies! If it sounds at all interesting, here's a link to the episode: anchor.fm/snails-and-oysters/episodes/Brokeback-Mountain-with-Michelle-Hsu-e1heif0
Sorry for the intrusion!
Thank you for posting the above link!
I enjoyed the podcast and indepth discussion about this film. The 1HR+ discussion, based on your first viewing, is quite well done. Many of us here have seen the film many, many times. Your discussion captured several subtle and key emotional connections in the film. Overall, BBM already considered a "classic" film which for which there is no equal. Eventually, it will be Lee's most remembered film. A great way to spend an hour on a Friday afternoon! V.
Here's the link above with a direct connect: https://anchor.fm/snails-and-oysters/episodes/Brokeback-Mountain-with-Michelle-Hsu-e1heif0 (https://anchor.fm/snails-and-oysters/episodes/Brokeback-Mountain-with-Michelle-Hsu-e1heif0)
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The first day of filming on BBM slipped up on me this year. The anniversary is 14 Jun 2004. V.
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Thanks for the reminder, V!
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https://www.queerty.com/ten-movies-straight-actors-played-gay-ok-20220703
I have 5 of these movies, the Fun Fact about Heath is interesting.
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Video on "Building A Character" regarding Ennis Del Mar.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKQfJMoyeT4
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^^ WOW! Thanks for posting that interview. IDK they had edited out scenes where Ennis was smiling at Alma or was expressing or touching her in a positive sense. The fact that the Lee and the editor left in the scene where Ennis sees Jack from the upstairs window, _smiles_, and then tears down the steps into Jack's arms... was amplified by those decisions to present so much of Ennis's inner struggle and turmoil in just the short time prior to Jack's arrival. V.
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Yes, very true, Vincent!
This was a great find, Chuck, I've always been somewhat curious about Dylan Tichenor, as he replaced the original editor, Geraldine Peroni.
The beginning of the above video says "Part 1," so I've been searching for Part 2. Here it is:
Editor Dylan Tichenor, ACE on Audience Interpretation in "Brokeback Mountain"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYxCGhkTzgs
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Yes, very true, Vincent!
This was a great find, Chuck, I've always been somewhat curious about Dylan Tichenor, as he replaced the original editor, Geraldine Peroni.
The beginning of the above video says "Part 1," so I've been searching for Part 2. Here it is:
Editor Dylan Tichenor, ACE on Audience Interpretation in "Brokeback Mountain"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYxCGhkTzgs
I meant to look for Part 2, and got sidetracked. Thanks Lyle!
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^^^ Thanks to you both for part 2. That phone call - the editing was succinct and direct between the two loves of Jack's life. They were having a first and final confrontation and for Laureen - a stunning realization / confirmation. To this day, Laureen's well-rehearsed explanation of Jack's death, is then summed up with, " ...about the ashes, I mean" then she abruptly hangs up without saying "good-bye" to Ennis. That whole passage sends chill bumps up/down my spine. Consider, she's speaking with Ennis, whom she _now_ realizes is Jack's lover of decades. The audience's context, until this point, is we assume _maybe_ she knew. Here we are shown maybe Laureen did _not_ know about Ennis being Jack's long-time love - i]maybe for the first time?[/i] We see, in just a few seconds Laureen's: love/hate, warm/cold, sad/angry, which transforms into heartbroken, jealous, angry, bitter. Notice - she said, "the ashes" and not "his ashes"... ? Damn. V.
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I did find part 2 as it came up on a small window at the end of part 1, so I was able to watch it as well. They are both so moving and so gut wrenching, especially the phone call. I had remembered Laureen's eyes welling up and then her abrupt hanging up. To me, it was then that her suspicion's about Ennis and Jack were proven true.
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I never thought that she had any suspicions about them, until that phone call. When Ennis mentions that they knew each other before Jack meeting her, I think a light bulb went off for her.
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It might not have been conscious on her part, but being a woman, and knowing how women think, I believe in her subconscious she had thoughts that something was going on.
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^^^ Agree, that call revealed to both the audience and Laureen, the truth of Jack's "fishing trips all these years...." V.
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Hiya UBF members.
While searching around Google, I found a site that poses 8 questions. The site seems to be geared toward the short story, but I see no reason that they can't be applied to the movie as well.
I'll post one question at a time, to keep the posts focused on it.
When I post the 8th question, I'll post the link to the website, and edit the prior posts to add the site link to give it the proper credit.
Not sure if these topics have been discussed before. Perhaps these will be new topics.
1. What is it about Jack and Ennis that makes them unable to resist each other? Does Brokeback Mountain have something to do with it? If so, why does their passion continue well after they leave Brokeback?
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1. What is it about Jack and Ennis that makes them unable to resist each other? Does Brokeback Mountain have something to do with it? If so, why does their passion continue well after they leave Brokeback?
I have to say, I've never really decided on why Jack and Ennis were unable to resist each other. The one thing that sticks out to me is that they were kindred spirits, so to speak. If you look at their childhoods, they were both lonely, and both lived in poverty. These were both common points they shared with each other. Later, when Jack married Lureen, that gave Jack financial stability he was missing most of his life. This also led to Jack having a different social circle after marrying into Lureen's family, but Ennis was someone who would understand where Jack came from. As an adult, Jack would still be affected by his childhood experiences, and since Ennis was still in that situation, Jack would still be able to relate and understand Ennis.
While the location of Brokeback could be seen as an Eden in both the movie and SS, did Brokeback actually have any part of their relationship? Jack seemed to think so, as evidenced by his comment "So what we have now, is Brokeback Mountain!"
Perhaps Brokeback represented safety to them, especially Ennis, who would only be close to Jack out in the middle of nowhere.
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a) BBM represented solace and reasonable safety to be truer to themselves without the prying, judgmental eyes of the world on either of them.
AKA, Ennis's comment to Jack, "if this _thing_ grabs hold of us - the wrong place, the wrong time - we are dead!"
The mountain provided a safety zone for "boys will be boys" rough housing, horseplay, drinking and overall male bonding to where you are stuck in this situation - make the best of it.
b) Spending months on a job when there's only 1 other person mostly 24/7 is just such a situation for more trust to develop. When you eat, sleep and work in those situations, you will learn things about that other person you may have never learned otherwise during a more time-limited setting such as dinner or drinks for a few hours or on weekends. You gotta do something to "pass the time". Some people never let the walls down - ever. It took Ennis a long while as in Jack's comments about "those are more words than you've said...." Trust is essential for any sort of "bromance" situation to develop - not unlike combat. Their relationship, went to another level and cross lines most dare not.
c) BBM is where Jack and Ennis bonded on a trust and a physical level. "Up on Brokeback", may be the first time Ennis was able to express that side of his being - ever.
d) Their passion continues after they left BBM b/c they fostered it with fishing trips. It's clear when they came down, neither wanted to really "let go" and "get on with their lives separately." They did that out of necessity.
e) It's rarer than we think but when one finds that "special person" who makes you feel alive and loved and needed like you never have before - that relationship becomes unique and different from everyone else. Jack did that for Ennis. Some people, as Chuck says, call these "soul-mates" When we are lucky enough to encounter one - it's hard to shake that "knowing" - no matter the gender. Many of us pass through life "settling" for what feels good or what plays best with the family, or the "church" or the community image.
f) If Ennis had never met Jack and they had not spent all those days on BBM together, bonding, and then gotten drunk that cold frosty night, Ennis might have never allowed that side of himself to surface. That image of "Earl", the raw fear from what his daddy implied he and others did to "Earl"... "drug him around until his dick fell off..." because he was a homosexual always was forefront in Ennis' mind.
f) I may think of more...
V.
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1. What is it about Jack and Ennis that makes them unable to resist each other? Does Brokeback Mountain have something to do with it? If so, why does their passion continue well after they leave Brokeback?
Seduced by the beauty of Heath and Jake, it's easy to reply to the first part of the question with "are you KIDDING?" but the boys were much less handsome in the story--Jack was a little man whose most notable features were curly hair, big thighs and big teeth, while Ennis was cave chested with a tiny torso and long bowed legs. What did they see in each other almost from the get-go? Well, clearly, both were living at least some version of their dream: being cowboys, so they admired that in each other. I would guess that they were drawn to the physical traits Annie describes, while Ennis, so deeply steeped in fear, admires Jack's courage as a bull-rider, one who has even won a (minor) prize. Jack for his part is drawn to Ennis' "uncommonly quick reflexes" and his "muscular and supple body made for the horse and for fighting." Each has something the other lacks: Jack has courage to put it on the line, Ennis is more the ideal cowboy type, with the height and strength Jack lacks; in the movie he is also all but silent like the classic cowboy.
Also, to put it starkly, they had major help from alcohol and isolation. Jack's previous summer, and, in the movie, his ready passing of the whisky bottle when Ennis admits his virginity, plus his sideways glance with "me neither," imply he has at least some m/m sexual experience, but whether he's Jake or the little buck-toothed guy, he's not going to start something that will get him beaten up without some help. The story emphasizes that both are very much aware of their isolation.
And quite clearly, a friendship develops. It's pretty obvious they are isolated personally, too: Ennis from the trauma of Earl, and Jack from his father's abuse. Did his father "know?" Was his father also gay and full of self-hatred, which he takes out on Jack? There's not enough information to guess, but either is possible. In any case, both would have been wary--Ennis of everyone, and Jack of anyone figuring out the truth. Forced together, they discover they like each other, "respectful of each other's opinions, each glad to have a companion where none was expected."
Brokeback Mountain had both everything and nothing to do with what happened between Ennis and Jack. The lengthy isolation gives them a whole month to build to the moment of discovery, and then weeks of opportunity to build on it, otherwise we may be sure nothing would ever have happened. In slightly different ways, both movie and story let them treat the idea of the Mountain as both a convenient shorthand for what they found up there--and as an excuse. When Ennis finds the Shirts, the moment is recorded with the haunting image of him seeking the scent of Jack which has long faded, leaving "only the memory of it, the imagined power of Brokeback Mountain of which nothing was left but what he held in his hands." Jack says "all we got is Brokeback," which says much the same thing: they've been riding along for 20 years on memories, but never got much further than the summer: only the Reunion was new, and a step forward. After that it was all just coasting. But Brokeback did have power: it set the scene, a harsh but genuine Eden, which allowed their love--as opposed to just their opportunistic sex--to begin. In that sense, Brokeback, or something like it, was essential.
The third part of the question, at least, has a simple answer: they expected nothing from their summer job, but time, isolation, friendship--and whisky--helped them to find love. Could they have loved each some other man? Maybe, probably. But they were each other's first, which is very powerful, and Ennis in particular would never have allowed any other man to get close. It was a "thing," and it was deadly. The passion continued because of the power of the summer, and its power in their memories. They expected nothing, and found love.
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1. What is it about Jack and Ennis that makes them unable to resist each other? Does Brokeback Mountain have something to do with it? If so, why does their passion continue well after they leave Brokeback?
These are some interesting questions. As for the film, I have the impression that Ang Lee worked on enhancing the differences rather than the similarities. Personally I lean on the perspective where Jack and Ennis are attracted to each other, and part of the reason is that they have different styles of communication. They learn about each other's patterns and keep a spark going. Brokeback Mountain seems to bring a sense of urgency (watching the sheep) but also a greater sense of freedom as they have more time away from people. When they leave Brokeback it seems it is a case of needing to know if they still have that passion. It has been a long time since I watched the film (just rewatched the reunion scene), but it seems to me that the film captures the passion really well.
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Some really great and thoughtful posts here in response to your questions, Chuck!
Seduced by the beauty of Heath and Jake, it's easy to reply to the first part of the question with "are you KIDDING?" but the boys were much less handsome in the story--
Strangely, as much as I have analysed the movie, short story, and the two characters, I have never pondered why they fell in love and remained so. I guess I must be a romantic at heart, believing that love has an unknowable quality that we will never be able to decode or fully understand. It just *happens*. I think both the movie and the short story portray this 'magical, mystical' quality well - maybe not least in that towards the end, Jack wishes he'd known how to quit Ennis - but love is a force of nature and as such, ungovernable - no reins on this one - whether you want to create it or destroy it.
It's much easier to see how a friendship developed, to identify the specifics of their situation and past histories that made them right for each other as friends. To me, Jack's non-judgmental curiosity and patience stand out, and Ennis' gruff little kindnesses.
Others have described all those character traits and circumstances really well above. :)
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Yes, very true, Vincent!
This was a great find, Chuck, I've always been somewhat curious about Dylan Tichenor, as he replaced the original editor, Geraldine Peroni.
The beginning of the above video says "Part 1," so I've been searching for Part 2. Here it is:
Editor Dylan Tichenor, ACE on Audience Interpretation in "Brokeback Mountain"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYxCGhkTzgs
I watch both parts of this interview with Dylan Tichenor. How different do you think Ang Lee's film adaptation of "BROKEBACK MOUNTAIN" (2005) might have been if Geraldine Peroni hadn't passed away and was able to finish editing the production?
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Are there other elements of Ennis and Jack's lives that you wish Ang Lee's film had explored that the movie didn't touch upon, or at least didn't touch upon as much? I think it would have been interesting if there were scenes of the two men when they were growing up. The relationships with their fathers when they were kids might have been interesting to see. Both men were implied as being very fond of their mothers. I imagine that like Jack's dad, Ennis's father must have been rather coldhearted but even more so. I mean, taking your two underaged sons to see the mangled body of a murdered man who was alleged to be having a consensual romantic and sexual relationship with another man, what kind of sadistic person does that? To even imply to two of your children that it was somehow "okay" that Earl had been viciously murdered for daring to have another man as his romantic partner.
Even though Jack's dad is rather cold, for some reason, I can't imagine him putting Jack through that kind of experience.
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Stumbled onto this well done cover... the clips + "wicked game" -> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NFXHXayeog (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NFXHXayeog)
Pretty good too, just love the song -> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ylaUFK-23Sg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ylaUFK-23Sg)
Some interviews of the cast during filming which I've not seen before -> https://www.youtube.com/c/H%C3%A9ctorSerranoMovies/search?query=brokeback%20mountain (https://www.youtube.com/c/H%C3%A9ctorSerranoMovies/search?query=brokeback%20mountain)
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Stumbled onto this well done cover... the clips + "wicked game" -> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NFXHXayeog (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NFXHXayeog)
Pretty good too, just love the song -> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ylaUFK-23Sg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ylaUFK-23Sg)
Some interviews of the cast during filming which I've not seen before -> https://www.youtube.com/c/H%C3%A9ctorSerranoMovies/search?query=brokeback%20mountain (https://www.youtube.com/c/H%C3%A9ctorSerranoMovies/search?query=brokeback%20mountain)
Hi Vincent. Thanks for the links! All very good.
Have you heard this one? It came up in my feed after I played the middle link you posted. I really like this one a lot as well!
https://youtu.be/av_nUf99Op0
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^^^ Nope not seen that one! Very nice! TY.
It’s amazing to me that people of all ages are still posting and making vids and wonderful covers all these so many years later. Consider the meaning and power of that…. V.
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^^^ Nope not seen that one! Very nice! TY.
It’s amazing to me that people of all ages are still posting and making vids and wonderful covers all these so many years later. Consider the meaning and power of that…. V.
I'm glad you like it. The music sounds so familiar. Back at the beginning of the forum, Jimmy turned me on to a whole bunch of new music and artists and this song sound so much like the type he had me listen to. I'm going to send him the song and see if he can remember the type and artist from back then.
A agree with your last statement. It totally is amazing that all these years later, these videos are still showing up.
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The fan-made "BROKEBACK MOUNTAIN" (2005) music video "Jack and Ennis - Another Love" by the sxftvidz YouTube channel was really good. If the film came out today, there would probably be even more fan-made music videos based on the movie, and there are still quite a lot of them on YouTube, especially older ones. When something because popular, people want to parody it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ylaUFK-23Sg
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Do remember all those fan video parodies of the theatrical trailer to "BROKEBACK MOUNTAIN" (2005) that spliced images from other movies, especially buddy-themed movies, against the instrumental score and dialogue from the movie's trailer that were released in 2006? Those were fun.
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Ang Lee Just Revealed There Was Tension Between Jake
Gyllenhaal and Heath Ledger During Brokeback Mountain
by Charlie Duncan | Pink News
https://www.thepinknews.com/2022/12/21/ang-lee-heath-ledger-jake-gyllenhaal-brokeback-mountain-friction/
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^^^ Well done merging and cover of BBM with CMBYN music -> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eHxQTAwb3X8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eHxQTAwb3X8) Enjoy. V.
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^^^ Well done merging and cover of BBM with CMBYN music -> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eHxQTAwb3X8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eHxQTAwb3X8) Enjoy. V.
I like this a lot!!
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Ang Lee Just Revealed There Was Tension Between Jake
Gyllenhaal and Heath Ledger During Brokeback Mountain
by Charlie Duncan | Pink News
https://www.thepinknews.com/2022/12/21/ang-lee-heath-ledger-jake-gyllenhaal-brokeback-mountain-friction/
This was a short but good article. Heath Ledger and Jake Gyllenhaal have different and very strong acting styles, so they were bound to clash just a little. I would have loved to see them work together in another film had Ledger not passed away so young.
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Featured in TDS this week
Well, look what the wind blew in: Ang Lee’s Brokeback Mountain
by James Hughes - March 7, 2023
With the Oscars around the corner, James Hughes revisits one of its most memorable and groundbreaking winners.
When a girlfriend brought home Brokeback Mountain a year or two after its release, I looked at it with nothing better than the mildest curiosity. A few mornings later, home from a nightshift, I made a sandwich and a cup of tea, and put it on.
There may have been a more challenging, evocative, gutsy, emotionally knotty American movie made since Brokeback Mountain, but I couldn’t say what it is. (Maybe Manchester by the Sea gives it a run.)
https://www.filmink.com.au/well-look-what-the-wind-blew-in-ang-lees-brokeback-mountain/
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^^^ Very worthy read! Structural elements and at least one scene detail I'd not noticed before... !! V.
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https://www.queerty.com/brokeback-mountain-is-getting-a-stage-adaptation-its-two-new-lead-stars-have-queer-fans-cheering-20230320
^^^
Brokeback Mountain will debut at May 10th at Londons’ Sohoplace Theatre and have a limited 12-week run before its final performance on August 12th.
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^^^ Well done merging and cover of BBM with CMBYN music -> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eHxQTAwb3X8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eHxQTAwb3X8) Enjoy. V.
Excellent indeed! Somehow I overlooked this before.
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David Finn Lights A Timely Brokeback Mountain
By Hannah Kinnersley - Jun 7, 2023
Sohoplace Theatre is the first new theatre in London's West End in 50 years. The 40,000 square-foot, 602-seat venue opened in October 2022, and is part of a mixed-use complex near Charing Cross Road designed by Allford Hall Monaghan Morris (AHMM). The project was brought to life by Nica Burns of Nimax Theatres, and was inspired by her visit to the ancient amphitheatre at Epidaurus in Greece. While the space functions primarily as a theatre in the round, it is flexible enough that it can convert to a proscenium venue if the production requires it.
David Finn talked to Live Design about designing Brokeback Mountain in the new space, being the fourth production in the theatre, and working in the round. His lighting plot is linked below.
https://www.livedesignonline.com/theatre/david-finn-creating-photographic-moments-brokeback-mountain
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'Brokeback Mountain' Gets New 4K UHD & Blu-ray Release
By - Britta Devore - 07/05/2023
Pride month might be over, but there’s great news for not only cinephiles in the LGBTQ+ community but also for those around the world - Brokeback Mountain will finally be receiving its long overdue 4K UHD and Blu-ray release. While no specific date has been revealed, movie buffs can expect to add the Academy Award-winning film to their collection by the end of the year. Likewise, no special features have been shared at this time but, like many other 4K UHD and Blu-ray drops, the chances are high that announcements will be made down the line for what viewers can expect for the two-disc-set’s add-ons.
Directed by Ang Lee (Life of Pi, Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon) and based on Annie Proulx’s 1997 short story of the same name, Brokeback Mountain tells the story of the secret romantic relationship between two cowboys over a 20-year period. When Ennis Del Mar (Heath Ledger) and Jack Twist (Jake Gyllenhaal) take on a job as seasonal ranch hands, ensuring the safety of a rancher’s sheep during herding season on Brokeback Mountain, romantic feelings make themselves known, and the men find themselves engulfed in a love affair that lasts for two decades.
https://collider.com/brokeback-mountain-4k-uhd-blu-ray-release-date/
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^^^ TY for posting the 4K info. I own very few DVDs... (< 20) but this goes into the must have box when released. V.
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Just in case one doesn't know, because I probably wouldn't, but I have one friend of mine that has this capability, but I don't know anyone else that does! (He actually told me about this release last night!)
FYI: To watch TV in 4K UHD, you'll need a 4K TV, and 4K content (disc), 4K Blu-ray player, a 4K–compatible HDMI cable, and plenty of internet speed.
Q: Can standard Blu-ray players play 4K UHD (Ultra High Definition) Blu-ray discs?
A: No.
So when the release is described as a two disc set, one disc is the 4K Ultra HD disc and the other a Blu-Ray disc. (Like when Blu-Ray discs used to come with a DVD disc.) Because it's been scanned for 4k, the Blu-Ray disc will look better than the original Blu-Ray disc.
In the article Chuck linked it says: "No special features have been shared at this time but, like many other 4K UHD and Blu-ray drops, the chances are high that announcements will be made down the line for what viewers can expect for the two-disc-set’s add-ons."
Based on what Ang Lee has said about these kinds of things in the past, I personally am not expecting much in the way of "special features." I would like to see the original trailer for the film on the set, because that has, as we know, some deleted footage in it. 18 years after the film premiered (yikes!) I don't see any treasure trove of extra stuff becoming available. If I'm wrong about that I'd be delighted, of course, but I wouldn't expect anyone like Ang or Jake doing audio-commentaries. Someone might, but I'm really not expecting much in that area. With the creators it's always strictly been about the film itself.
I'm going to have to ask my friend if I can watch the film with him with all his 4k UHD capabilities. That would be a treat!
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I'm not surprised that "BROKEBACK MOUNTAIN" (2005) will be getting released on 4K ULTRA HD Blu-ray Disc. I'm sure that visually, it will look great. The sound quality will be great, I'm sure. Who knows what other home media formats the film will be released on in the future.
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David Finn Lights A Timely Brokeback Mountain
By Hannah Kinnersley - Jun 7, 2023
Sohoplace Theatre is the first new theatre in London's West End in 50 years. The 40,000 square-foot, 602-seat venue opened in October 2022, and is part of a mixed-use complex near Charing Cross Road designed by Allford Hall Monaghan Morris (AHMM). The project was brought to life by Nica Burns of Nimax Theatres, and was inspired by her visit to the ancient amphitheatre at Epidaurus in Greece. While the space functions primarily as a theatre in the round, it is flexible enough that it can convert to a proscenium venue if the production requires it.
David Finn talked to Live Design about designing Brokeback Mountain in the new space, being the fourth production in the theatre, and working in the round. His lighting plot is linked below.
https://www.livedesignonline.com/theatre/david-finn-creating-photographic-moments-brokeback-mountain
I wonder if there will ever be a stage musical based on the film and short story? If they did produce one, I imagine it wouldn't make it Broadway, and if it did, I couldn't imagine it being a financial success because only older people could go see it. But hey, if Alice Walker's novel "THE COLOR PURPLE" which isn't exactly family-friendly can be adapted into a Broadway musical, why not "BROKEBACK MOUNTAIN"? A film adaptation of "THE COLOR PURPLE" Broadway musical is going to be released into movie theaters very soon. Steven Spielberg's 1985 film adaptation of Walker's novel starring Whoopi Golberg and Oprah Winfrey is wonderful, and I'm curious as to what the movie adaptation of the musical will be like. I'd love to see a major Broadway musical adaptation of "BROKEBACK MOUNTAIN", or a new theatrical film adaptation of Annie Proulx's short story. No, I don't mean that I want a remake of Ang Lee's film, but I wouldn't mind seeing another theatrical film adaptation of "BROKEBACK MOUNTAIN" actually, not if it were very well-made, I wouldn't.
I know that a Broadway musical adaptation of "BROKEBACK MOUNTAIN" , or another well-made theatrical film adaptation of Annie Proulx's short story that is an even more accurate telling of the short story - as unlikely as they are - I realize that these are projects that may never get produced, but it would be great if they did. This story is one that could be worth revisiting through another inventive, well-made retelling. I have nothing but respect for Ang Lee's acclaimed film adaptation, obviously I do, or else I wouldn't be here. And as satisfied as I am with it, I wouldn't mind seeing another movie adaptation of it. Even a literary adaptation retelling the story from another character's viewpoint would be interesting.
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Is Brokeback Mountain (2005) One of the *BEST* Dramas? MOVIE REACTION!!! FIRST TIME WATCHING!!!
Cam&Zay
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7qbuk2JTE4&t=2975s
Brokeback Mountain BROKE my little gay heart!! | Film Reaction
niall no chill
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UxV1G16KKFo
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Brokeback Mountain | A Retrospective
Gui Huppé
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-7Ck-7mk1s
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https://fandomwire.com/ill-apologize-when-hell-freezes-over-mel-gibson-broke-friendship-with-heath-ledger-after-the-dark-knight-star-accepted-178m-movie-against-his-wishes/
^^^
It happened after Ledger accepted Brokeback Mountain...
I was looking for info about the 4k Blu-ray of Brokeback, just found this, I hope this is the right place for this in the forum.
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^^^ After the first few "Mad Max" films, and certainly before we learned of Gibson's homophobic and religious BS mentality, I actually liked the guy's acting. However, after those first few films, he's been on my "I don't give a sh!t and not a penny from me..." listing. It's scary how insidious religious dogma can warp people's minds. V.
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The Hollywood publicity machine used to temper the industry's actors so they'd all be palatable to us more or less. Not that this is a bad thing. But with our current technologies we often learn so much about them whether we want to or not that it can affect our judgements. Separating the actor/person from their work is increasingly more difficult.
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^^^ Agree. Knowing where and what what sort of "real person" under the acting covers your $$ is going to ... is important to some (me included). There are certain national restaurants and other businesses I refuse to use. No one penny in my lifetime! V.
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^^^ After the first few "Mad Max" films, and certainly before we learned of Gibson's homophobic and religious BS mentality, I actually liked the guy's acting. However, after those first few films, he's been on my "I don't give a sh!t and not a penny from me..." listing. It's scary how insidious religious dogma can warp people's minds. V.
I think he was a decent actor at one time, and I still enjoy some of his older roles, but I can still separate Gibson's characters from the homophobic, antisemitic, racist, narcissistic, fake, self-righteous, self-centered, self-entitled, and fundamentalist Catholic little asshat and shithole that this actor has revealed himself to be.
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The Hollywood publicity machine used to temper the industry's actors so they'd all be palatable to us more or less. Not that this is a bad thing. But with our current technologies we often learn so much about them whether we want to or not that it can affect our judgements. Separating the actor/person from their work is increasingly more difficult.
I believe in separating the art from the artist. Celebrities are not sinless deities, if you will pardon that expression. They are humans -- some are really good people and still have their flaws, and some are really bad people who never learn from their mistakes. It doesn't matter how much money they have or how famous they are, they'll still fallible and flawed people like everyone else, and we shouldn't put them on pedestals or subject them to a different standard just because they are rich and famous.
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It's been 18 years since Ang Lee's "BROKEBACK MOUNTAIN" (2005) was released in movie theaters throughout the world. Happy late 18th anniversary "BROKEBACK MOUNTAIN"!
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Happy anniversary to our movie, and the start of members becoming "brokies"!
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Brokeback Mountain: Looking Back at the Groundbreaking LGBTQ+ Movie
By - Jessica Brajer - JUN 19, 2022
Over the years, LGBTQ+ representation in the film industry has grown exponentially, but it has not always been that way. One of the first films to break ground in mainstrream LGBTQ+ cinema was Ang Lee's Brokeback Mountain. Based on the short story by Annie Proulx, Brokeback Mountain tells the story of two cowboys who fall in love, and though society tells them that they cannot be together, they cannot help their feelings. Starring Heath Ledger, Jake Gyllenhal, Anne Hathaway, and Michelle Williams, this award-winning film touched the hearts of many with its tragic love story that lives so fondly in so many people's hearts.
As we move through Pride month, one of the best ways to celebrate is to enjoy some of the great LGBTQ+ content that's been created in the last few decades. As Brokeback Mountain is considered one of the best films ever made — being preserved for its significance in the Library of Congress, per Independent — it's only fair that we re-watch it and enjoy it for all it is. Remembering Heath Ledger's heartfelt performance, examining the harsh truths explored throughout the film, and positioning the film in LGBTQ+ cinema history, let's take a look back at Brokeback Mountain, one of the most groundbreaking queer movies ever made.
https://movieweb.com/brokeback-mountain-groundbreaking-lgbtq-movie/
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^^^ Seems accurate! I loved the photos they used - all iconic (to me). V.
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Brokeback Mountain: Looking Back at the Groundbreaking LGBTQ+ Movie
By - Jessica Brajer - JUN 19, 2022
Over the years, LGBTQ+ representation in the film industry has grown exponentially, but it has not always been that way. One of the first films to break ground in mainstrream LGBTQ+ cinema was Ang Lee's Brokeback Mountain. Based on the short story by Annie Proulx, Brokeback Mountain tells the story of two cowboys who fall in love, and though society tells them that they cannot be together, they cannot help their feelings. Starring Heath Ledger, Jake Gyllenhal, Anne Hathaway, and Michelle Williams, this award-winning film touched the hearts of many with its tragic love story that lives so fondly in so many people's hearts.
As we move through Pride month, one of the best ways to celebrate is to enjoy some of the great LGBTQ+ content that's been created in the last few decades. As Brokeback Mountain is considered one of the best films ever made — being preserved for its significance in the Library of Congress, per Independent — it's only fair that we re-watch it and enjoy it for all it is. Remembering Heath Ledger's heartfelt performance, examining the harsh truths explored throughout the film, and positioning the film in LGBTQ+ cinema history, let's take a look back at Brokeback Mountain, one of the most groundbreaking queer movies ever made.
https://movieweb.com/brokeback-mountain-groundbreaking-lgbtq-movie/
Interesting article, but I wish it were more in-depth and wished that it had talked more about the film's subtlety and lack of any concrete answers.
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^^^ Seems accurate! I loved the photos they used - all iconic (to me). V.
Yep, but it would still be nice to see production photos from the movie that haven't been seen before.
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Hello, I haven't been here for the longest time but here I am. :)
I'm not quite sure how to explain this but here goes. I was listening to a short story on BBC Radio 4. It's called "Coal Country Beauty Queen" by Anna Baily. It's very "BBM" in style about an army vet who almost has an affair with a fellow soldier and then can't forget him. What astonished me was a passage about him dropping out of high school and references to his old truck. If you're familiar with the BBM original story you might notice something very familiar.
If anyone can access the BBC Sounds I Player could you have a listen please? Thank you
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m001v3zs
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Hello, I haven't been here for the longest time but here I am. :)
I'm not quite sure how to explain this but here goes. I was listening to a short story on BBC Radio 4. It's called "Coal Country Beauty Queen" by Anna Baily. It's very "BBM" in style about an army vet who almost has an affair with a fellow soldier and then can't forget him. What astonished me was a passage about him dropping out of high school and references to his old truck. If you're familiar with the BBM original story you might notice something very familiar.
If anyone can access the BBC Sounds I Player could you have a listen please? Thank you
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m001v3zs
Hi Janie!
It sounds like this could have been created by AI. The reference to "Royal Crown" instead of the actual name "Crown Royal" makes it suspect. I think an editor would have caught such a mistake.
The human author has lifted a lot of theme from BBM. I don't think it's outright plagiarism. If not AI, it sounds like some of our fandom's fanfiction, both that which has been published traditionally and that which exists in fanfiction archives.
Do you think it could be AI-created?
(Also, may I say that I am an ardent fan of your artwork, some of which I have seen in-person!)
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Hello, nice to talk to you again. ;) Thanks for the comments. That's a really interesting observation about AI. I hadn't considered that but you may well be correct. I don't know enough about it to be sure. The passage concerning the truck is almost identical to AP's other than several words have been changed, such as "senior" for "sophomore". I'm also surprised that someone didn't spot it.
Thanks for the kind comments on the artwork. It was such a pleasure to be involved and I got a huge amount out of doing it, including learning a lot along the way. ;)
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Janie! It's so good to see you! I'm glad you stopped by!
Donna, you're point about AI is good. It's being used so much know, it's very possible this is an AI creation. That being said, I don't know enough about AI to make an accurate decision about it.
Very BBM themed, and I see your point about the truck, Janie. I enjoyed the story, so thank you for posting it!
As for your art, I have one of your pieces hanging above my desktop, so I see it daily. I love it!
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^^^ Great short story. "What could have been..." is such a tantalizing riddle. It almost got me...good. Thanks for posting it.
As for whether AI wrote it, given the source and site (BBC Radio), I would like to think they would have posted a notice to any readers or listeners whether AI composed all or parts of the work.
This is real black hole which we, as a people, will need to determine how to manage, cite. V.
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This won't happen, but if we KNOW something is created from A.I. we could choose not to support it. If that happened it wouldn't be profitable. However, we now have a whole political party whose mantra is artifice.
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Janie! It's so good to see you! I'm glad you stopped by!
Donna, you're point about AI is good. It's being used so much know, it's very possible this is an AI creation. That being said, I don't know enough about AI to make an accurate decision about it.
Very BBM themed, and I see your point about the truck, Janie. I enjoyed the story, so thank you for posting it!
As for your art, I have one of your pieces hanging above my desktop, so I see it daily. I love it!
Hi Chuck, nice to talk to you again. I remember doing your drawing and am so delighted you still have it. Thanks for commenting on the story.
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^^^ Great short story. "What could have been..." is such a tantalizing riddle. It almost got me...good. Thanks for posting it.
As for whether AI wrote it, given the source and site (BBC Radio), I would like to think they would have posted a notice to any readers or listeners whether AI composed all or parts of the work.
This is real black hole which we, as a people, will need to determine how to manage, cite. V.
I enjoyed it as well. I'm not sure about the AI connection.. I suspect that the author might be horrified by the suggestion. I looked her up and apparently she is award winning, so who knows. Yes I totally agree that there's a responsibility to state what's going on but then who is accountable for anything these days? It really is a black hole.
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I wasn't quite sure where to post this, but I just came across this article from the SCREEN RANT website that includes a brief mention of "BROKEBACK MOUNTAIN" (2005), with the article talking about genre-bending Western flicks. I hope you find it to be of interest. The article also mentions the movie "NO COUNTRY FOR OLD MEN" (2007) which I like very much...in fact, I even liked it more than Cormac McCarthy's novel on which the Cohen brothers' film is based, and I'm not even a very big Western fan.
https://screenrant.com/western-movies-genre-bending-good/
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I think that Ang Lee's film is probably one of the few films that portrays the American West in a realistic way...just everyday regular people trying to make ends meet who largely don't lead particularly glamourous or super exciting lives, not as these gun-slinging heroes saving pretty young women from being harmed by evil prospectors.
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^^^ Thanks so much for posting the listing. I'm frankly amazed that BBM made it into this top 10 listing but rightfully so. The American West is such an encompassing genre that it's difficult to really to define it outside of "it is shot with an American western theme" and then to each viewer it will mean something different. For many, the American western invokes images of "John Wayne" but all this is based on our perspectives and collective memories. For instance, you say "western" and I immediately think of 2 things: "John Wayne" and the TV show, "Gunsmoke". V.
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Agree, thanks for posting this!
Although I don't think the article needed to rank by number the movies listed, they're all so varied and different, it's a fascinating list of films and something I wouldn't have thought of before really. I remember when I worked at Virgin Megastore some of the guys who worked there didn't think that Brokeback Mountain should be in the western section. We kept moving them around for quite a long time. I just thought of another movie that could be on that list, a movie that should've been a classic, but somehow lost it's way in the storytelling: Cowboys & Aliens.
Since I mentioned it, the thing that bothered me most about Cowboys & Aliens is that the western townsfolk didn't seem to react to the aliens like it was something other than they'd react to an Indian attack. People in the old west are always seen as suspicious of a stranger, and alien creatures, not to mention flying objects, didn't terrify them to bits? At east at first? It didn't compute.
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Revisiting ‘Brokeback Mountain’, a classic
When a finely crafted story lands up in the hands of a compassionate director, what emerges is an elusive yet haunting cinematic experience. Ang Lee’s movie adaptation of Annie Proulx’s acclaimed short story Brokeback Mountain is an intimate exploration of human turmoil, purpose and love set in the lush green snow-capped mountainous landscape of Wyoming.
https://www.deccanherald.com/entertainment/revisiting-brokeback-mountain-a-classic-1178672.html
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^^^ Actually a very well written summary I'd not read before now! THANKS!! V.
"Amidst the vast mountains, the two find solace in each other’s warmth and soon embark upon an ingrained human relationship which eventually becomes their fondest memory to hold on to. The story explores the consequences of not outgrowing a tendency to escape from what makes one truly happy due to societal factors.
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He (Ang Lee) was intrigued by the fact that the two characters are forced to privatise their feelings for each other but still manage to find pockets of freedom at Brokeback Mountain. The mountain acts as a metaphor for the rules bound by society, forcing them to climb it to materialise their true love for each other."
Read more at: https://www.deccanherald.com/entertainment/revisiting-brokeback-mountain-a-classic-1178672.html (https://www.deccanherald.com/entertainment/revisiting-brokeback-mountain-a-classic-1178672.html)
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This many years later and still new articles and such! Thanks, Chuck!