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Has anyone read The Shipping News or Postcards or the other stories in Wyoming Stories or any of Annie's other books? What did you think?
Or do you want to read more of her after this?
Those who know her work well, what do you recommend?
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I couldn't get through the Shipping News. It didn't take off for me and I gave up after about 150 pages. A friend has told me it's worth the effort in the end, but I don't think I'll try again. Right now I have Wyoming stories checked out of the library and if I ever get off the computer I'll read a few.
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I read Shipping News about 2 yrs ago ago. I was amazed that the Lesbian sub text was totally erased in the film version. Anyway, I had to force myself to read it as the prose had a disquieting flow to it. Nevertheless, I knew that i was experiencing a unique voice & hence slogged thru it. I was able to better appreciate her after reading her recent interviews as she explained her fascination w folkways & rural culture. Shipping News does bear that truth.
I next purchased Wyoming Stories as a book-on-tape but quickly abandoned it. Proulx is too difficult/ rich to aurally appreciate.
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I have read most of the Close Range stories. none were as good or touched as deep as BBM to me though.
I like them, though alot of her focus goes toward the tragedy and darkness in things.
You don't find too many uplifts in this book in my mind. I do like a couple of them quite a bit, I did like The Mud Below, Pair of Spurs, and Bunchgrass at the edge of the world.
And People in Hell just want a glass of Water--made me just depressed, and the tragic there is man's inhumanity to man. IT was very different from BBM and did not touch me as deep either, but it made me very sad. But I couldn't quit reading it either.
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I have read most of the Close Range stories. none were as good or touched as deep as BBM to me though.
I have read a handful, and similar response so far. Not bad, but so far none really grabbed me. Nothing like Brokeback. I'll try those others you suggested next.
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Close Range: There was one story, "The Half-Skinned Steer," that was haunting. I liked it most in that collection. She reminds me of Flannery O'Conner.
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that one is haunting---and hits alittle close to home right now---as we are starting to have issues about limitations and one's realizing them as one ages.
My Mom is still driving everywhere at 85---and is a very good driver---but we her family are noticiing changes in her vision and awareness that is starting to be a concern---SO when I read that one, it gives me the shivers.
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Want to discuss Annie? Here's the place.
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http://annieproulx.com/
(https://ultimatebrokebackforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.snapfish.com%2F34588%253A964%257Ffp338%253Enu%253D3266%253E253%253E755%253EWSNRCG%253D323339585684%253Cnu0mrj&hash=d4885269249f0910da8e69d1b4a69c12da007f27)
(https://ultimatebrokebackforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.snapfish.com%2F34588%253A964%257Ffp337%253Enu%253D3266%253E253%253E755%253EWSNRCG%253D32333958648%253B7nu0mrj&hash=06b788c48eacc490cba070124a190b3d19e19357)
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That one sounds really interesting. I'll read it next.
(As soon as I finished The Year of Magical Thinking. I just started it last night. Hard to put down. And I'm also slogging my way through The Sound and the Fury, but that's hard! hehehe. Well it is. But I loved As I Lay Dying, so hopefully it will be worth it.
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I read all of the stories in Close Range -- I think in the order in which they appear in the book, which a friend had lent me. I can't remember if he told me about BBM beforehand, or just waited to see if it would stand out for me the way it did for him. What I do remember is that BBM stood out from the rest of the stories in that book like a diamond in a tray of cut glass. Actually that's not a fair analogy, because the rest of her stories are very, very good. It's just that I can't think of a better metaphor than that to describe the way BBM's impact on me.
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I loved The Shipping News (did not see the movie), but I enjoy books that explore themes of isolation and the role that place plays in shaping individuals and communities. If you feel that you really "get" BBM, you might enjoy TSN now as the thematic elements are very similar.
I agree that BBM was the best of WS, but I think even Annie might argue that BBM is her best piece of work in any form.
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I really enjoyed the Shipping new as well. Enough to make sure I read Accordion Crimes when it came out. I haven't gotten to That Old Ace in the hole yet.
Pete I'd like to hear more about your impression of the thematic similarities. I remember frustration at Quoyle at times, not understanding why he did what he did, but unable to stop reading. It's been a while so my memory of the book is a bit vague
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I am interested in hearing other posters' reactions to Annie Proulx's complete turn around concerning her relationship with her created characters - Jack and Ennis.
Interview with Annie Proulx
by The Missouri Review Staff
Interviewer: Have you ever fallen in love with one of your characters?
Proulx: I have never fallen in love with one of my characters. The notion is repugnant. Characters are made to carry a particular story; that is their work. The only reason one shapes a character to look as he or she does, behave and speak in a certain way, suffer particular events, is to move the story forward in a particular direction. I do not indulge characters nor give them their heads and "see where they go," and I don't understand writers who drift downriver in company with unformed characters. The character, who may seem to hold center stage in a novel, and in a limited sense does, actually exists to support the story. This is not to say that writing a character is like building a model airplane. The thoughtful and long work of inventing a believable and fictionally "true" person on paper is exhilarating, particularly as one knowingly skates near the thin ice of caricature.
And on her website she gives this retraction:
"There is one lie in this interview where I said I had never fallen in love with any of my characters. I think I did fall in love with both Jack and Ennis, or some other strong feeling of connection which has persisted for the 8 years since the story was written."
Apparently it was caused by her viewing of the film. It 'knocked [her] for a loop'. She goes on ... " And, when I saw the film for the first time, I was astonished that the characters of Jack and Ennis came surging into my mind again, for (hence the lie in Missouri Review ) I thought I had successfully banished them over the years. Wrong."
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I thought I would get the book Close Range: Wyoming Stories from my local library. All ten copies are checked out, as are all six copies of Brokeback Mountain, which I have already read on the ‘Net. So perhaps my dreary suburban town harbors some like-minded spirits after all!
Meanwhile, I did my search under the author’s name, and smiled a little to see the titles of some of Annie Proulx’s earlier works from the early and mid ‘80s:
Sweet & Hard Cider: Making it, Using it & Enjoying It
Plan and Make Your Own Fences & Gates, Walkways, Walls & Drives
The Fine Art of Salad Gardening
I’m sure those books were sheer rent-paying drudgery and we all remember those days in our own professional lives. Thanks Annie, for following your muse. The Shipping News astonished me and Brokeback Mountain, the movie, has altered my life.
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She has also posted the following (including the retraction) on her website:
about Brokeback Mountain
Note on interviews:
I very much regret that the demand for interviews has overwhelmed me. I am sorry to disappoint anyone, but I can no longer neglect my regular writing work. From today, December 9, 2005, I can no longer do any interviews connected with Brokeback Mountain.
Suggested background information sources are: my biography, curriculum vitae, and Interview with Annie Proulx (The Missouri Review, vol XXII, No. 2, 1999). There is one lie in this interview where I said I had never fallen in love with any of my characters. I think I did fall in love with both Jack and Ennis, or some other strong feeling of connection which has persisted for the 8 years since the story was written. Another commentary on the Brokeback story is in the essay "Getting Movied," included in the recently published Brokeback Mountain: Story to Screenplay (Scribner, 2005), which also contains essays by Diana Ossana and Larry McMurtry.
Thanks for your interest,
Annie Proulx
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One other question - I know I have heard that AP was disappointed in the film version of The Shipping News, but I'm not sure where I heard that or what it is based on - anyone know? I never saw the film.
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Oh my. Annie HATED the movie version of TSN and washed her hands of it. It is one of the main reasons I've never seen the movie.
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Oh my. Annie HATED the movie version of TSN and washed her hands of it. It is one of the main reasons I've never seen the movie.
It's an alright movie, but doesn't capture the book AT ALL, IMHO. I loved the book though...
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Well I am 1/2 through Close Range. I like it just fine (actually I like it a lot) but I am in agreement with most here. Brokeback Mountain seems, so far, the stand out (I read it first in the Story to Screenplay book after viewing #1). I am excited because I am not really into fiction. I love nonfiction. I am hopeful this new found joy of reading fiction will last!
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A bit of information about the writing of Brokeback Mountain- A few years ago, shortly after I first read the story, I listened to a lengthy interview with Annie Proulx on a BBC radio programme called 'With Great Pleasure'. The format of this was that over an hour the guest talks about their career and plays substantial pieces of music that were important to them. Annie talked a lot about BBM and said that, while writing the story, she played one piece of music over and over again. This was the track 'Spiritual' from the wonderful album 'Beyond the Missouri Sky' by Charlie Haden and Pat Metheny. I do recommend that people pick this up as it does have a wonderful resonance, listening to it and remembering this anecdote. I was hoping they might use it in the film score, but it would probably have been too overpowering.
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Constans -- Thank you so much for that info about Annie. When did this interview take place? I'm going to do some research and see if I can get the recording of the interview or a transcript. :)
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Bobbie - Oh dear! Probably around 2000 - not long after I read the story and way before i had any idea a film was in the offing. The series was broadcast for a few seasons on BBC Radio 3, presented by composer and presenter Michael Berkeley. I wish I could remember more what Annie said about the composition of BBM, but I was so transfixed by the music it's all I really remember.
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OK, I used to be a librarian, so I have a thing about reading books.
But I really feel the story "Brokeback Mountain" has more depth if read in the context of all 22 of Annie Proulx's Wyoming stories collected in Close Range and Bad Dirt.
Why Jack and Ennis behave the way they do makes much more sense when we see how Proulx's other Wyoming characters react to the state's wide open spaces, rugged terrain, brutal weather, limping economy, and sense of isolation from "mainstream" America.
I consider "A Lonely Coast" (in Close Range) the straight equivalent of "Brokeback." Despite all their difficulties, Jack Twist and Ennis del Mar achieve a bond of intimacy and tenderness completely unimaginable to Josanna Skiles and her slezoid boyfriend Elk Nelson.
Read both stories, and see how much more important Wyoming is in Proulx's writing than either homosexuality or heterosexuality.
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bbbmedia --
Thanks for the suggestions. I had heard of Annie Proulx prior to Brokeback, but have never read any of her other stories.
I'm just bowled over by the story. I've read it several times. Very slowly. Rereading every line. It is one of the best short stories I've ever read. Which makes it all the more amazing that Hollywood, far from butchering it, created such a great film version.
What is your take on the prologue? And how do you think putting it in or leaving it out (in the original version published in the New Yorker) effects the story?
I just noticed. 7 posts on Annie Proulx. 5 on the also great Larry McMurtry. 1000 on the actors. I take nothing from their excellent performances, but SHE created this thing! Guess that's jsut a cross writers have to bear.
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bbbmedia --
Thanks for the suggestions. I had heard of Annie Proulx prior to Brokeback, but have never read any of her other stories.
I'm just bowled over by the story. I've read it several times. Very slowly. Rereading every line. It is one of the best short stories I've ever read. Which makes it all the more amazing that Hollywood, far from butchering it, created such a great film version.
What is your take on the prologue? And how do you think putting it in or leaving it out (in the original version published in the New Yorker) effects the story?
I just noticed. 7 posts on Annie Proulx. 5 on the also great Larry McMurtry. 1000 on the actors. I take nothing from their excellent performances, but SHE created this thing! Guess that's jsut a cross writers have to bear.
Couldn't agree more with you on this wjp
Re-reading is the key to discovering new things hidden in the story. Especially if you read it, like you mentionned, line by line, phrase by phrase, and paragraph by paragraph. It's been 8 times now and I am still discovering things.... and still thrown against the wall (and down on the floor).
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Annie's Brokeback Mountain story is the most sparse and compressed narrative i've ever read. it takes really deep thinking and work to produce such an efficient, effective narration. i never even heard of her until Christmas night and morning of the day after. being penniless and eager, i downloaded and read the story early in the morning, and have thought of little else since. i read the story twice, got supremely lucky and was given a ticket to a sold out performance of the movie, and a ride to the theater. saw the movie for no cost to me, but received a great gift of art and feeling. based on this one story, i have to think that she is one of the greatest writers. it's a miracle that the story was translated into a movie as effective as the original story. i've never seen that happen before. it must have been because of the sheer power of the writing to pass the spirit to others.
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Lance - Anne did indeed write an incredible piece of art which may be a catalyst for some of the greatest 'cultural' changes in my life time.
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Here's a good Proulx interview from Bookslut:
http://www.bookslut.com/features/2005_12_007310.php
She also has an interesting website (I think it's just Annieproulx.com; if that doesn't work, google will give it to you); and there's a talk, pre-movie, that I'm trying to find again.
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Here's a good Proulx interview from Bookslut:
http://www.bookslut.com/features/2005_12_007310.php
She also has an interesting website (I think it's just Annieproulx.com; if that doesn't work, google will give it to you); and there's a talk, pre-movie, that I'm trying to find again.
Thanks Castro;
One quote from her that I found very interesting :
Did you ever feel like your work might be defined by Shipping News, and now it seems there's a lot of attention being given to Brokeback Mountain? I guess it's awfully early to say, but do you think your work might be defined by Brokeback Mountain?
It's starting to look that way, yeah. It's odd, but that's how it is. Actually, that story was to be one of three or four stories about offbeat and difficult love situations, but I never wrote any of the others. I just wrote that one.
I had to get away from it. It just got too intense, and too much on my mind. That's when I wrote the book [That Old Ace in the Hole], but I may have to write the other stories just to clear my mind, as it were. And also because I conceived of that particular story as one of a set of stories. As it is right now, it stands out rather like a sore thumb in comparison to the rest of the work, so I think I have to do those other stories.
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This Thursday Annie Proulx will be discussing her story and the movie on public radio station KCRW at 2:30pm PCT. If you don't live in Los Angeles you can hear the show, "Bookworm", at www.kcrw.com
Bill
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On the National Critics Award and on the Golden Globes, I think I heard Diana Ossana and Ang Lee pronounced Annie's last name as "prool".
Am I just hearing them wrong?
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that's certainly the way i heard them say it.
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The "L" and "X" are silent (see FAQ's in her website). It's pronounced as "proo". I wonder what Annie would say to that? :-\
http://annieproulx.com/
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I just noticed. 7 posts on Annie Proulx. 5 on the also great Larry McMurtry. 1000 on the actors. I take nothing from their excellent performances, but SHE created this thing! Guess that's jsut a cross writers have to bear.
I quoted you last nite on the Real Time Online Brokeback Forum Virtual Golden Globes Extravaganza
Diana Ossana had given the most fantastic acceptance speech wearing the most fabulous white evening gown--and all anyone could talk about was Jake, Jake, Jake, Jake, Jake, Jake
One of the Mods told me to lighten up and just go with the flow
But there's something wrong here if people who are so crazy about the movie are ignoring the screen writer whose getting an award and jabbering about The Stud Who Wasn't There
I guess us print people will have to learn to take our lumps and settle for the crumbs
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No, no, you're not the only one!!! I wasn't on the GG live thread, but I gushed about Diana at the BFCA: "... and I went crazy for Diana cause I identify with her -- she's sort of like the "Annie" on this project, the tough, smart middle-aged gal that's wise to everything...."
She's smart, classy, she looked great (how about that hair!) and she gave a great speech last night... and along with Annie, two women added so much heart to this film, it amazes me! If I could write like that...
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And as far as Annie goes, any woman that can get away with this line has my undying respect...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/filmandmusic/story/0,16373,1678414,00.html
Proulx herself is overwhelmed. "Heath Ledger erased the image I had when I wrote it. He was so visceral. How did this actor get inside my head so well? He understood more about the character than I did. This isn't nice for a 70-year-old woman to say, but it was a skullfuck."
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I hope someone will post some sort of link to Diana Ossana's acceptance speech. I missed it.
And that quote from Annie about Ledger's performance -- My God! I had no idea she was 70.
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Annie Proulx on KCRW's "Bookworm", Thursday Jan 19. Very interesting interview on Brokeback Mtn.
http://www.kcrw.org/cgi-bin/db/kcrw.pl?show_code=bw&air_date=1/19/06&tmplt_type=show
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I posted a message on the Book\Movie Suggest New Topic Thread suggesting a thread to discuss
Brokeback in the Context of all Proulx's Wyoming Stories published in Close Range & Bad Dirt
This maybe somewhat academic, but I feel Proulx does for Wyoming what Joyce did for Dublin, and the individual stories reflect and reverberate off one another
Proulx has a great story about a woman who actually escapes her Wyoming roots and finds a long and satisfying lesbian relationship in San Francisco--and it's the only "happy family" in any of the 22 stories ("Dump Junk" in Bad Dirt)
There are no happy heterosexual families in Proulx's Wyoming stories, and I feel Jack & Ennis need to be seen in that context
Any other Proulx fans interested in this idea for a new thread???
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I posted a message on the Book\Movie Suggest New Topic Thread suggesting a thread to discuss
Brokeback in the Context of all Proulx's Wyoming Stories published in Close Range & Bad Dirt
This maybe somewhat academic, but I feel Proulx does for Wyoming what Joyce did for Dublin, and the individual stories reflect and reverberate off one another
Proulx has a great story about a woman who actually escapes her Wyoming roots and finds a long and satisfying lesbian relationship in San Francisco--and it's the only "happy family" in any of the 22 stories ("Dump Junk" in Bad Dirt)
There are no happy heterosexual families in Proulx's Wyoming stories, and I feel Jack & Ennis need to be seen in that context
Any other Proulx fans interested in this idea for a new thread???
Yes
I'd love to talk also about how the other stories in Close Range (and Bad Dirt - I haven't read those but keep meaning to) may have had an influence on the screenplay - I know reading some of them gave me a flavor for some of the characters in BBM.
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No, no, you're not the only one!!! I wasn't on the GG live thread, but I gushed about Diana at the BFCA: "... and I went crazy for Diana cause I identify with her -- she's sort of like the "Annie" on this project, the tough, smart middle-aged gal that's wise to everything...."
She's smart, classy, she looked great (how about that hair!) and she gave a great speech last night... and along with Annie, two women added so much heart to this film, it amazes me! If I could write like that...
...And drop-dead gorgeous to boot!
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I posted a message on the Book\Movie Suggest New Topic Thread suggesting a thread to discuss
Brokeback in the Context of all Proulx's Wyoming Stories published in Close Range & Bad Dirt
This maybe somewhat academic, but I feel Proulx does for Wyoming what Joyce did for Dublin, and the individual stories reflect and reverberate off one another
Proulx has a great story about a woman who actually escapes her Wyoming roots and finds a long and satisfying lesbian relationship in San Francisco--and it's the only "happy family" in any of the 22 stories ("Dump Junk" in Bad Dirt)
There are no happy heterosexual families in Proulx's Wyoming stories, and I feel Jack & Ennis need to be seen in that context
Any other Proulx fans interested in this idea for a new thread???
Check out Annie's thread in Arts and Entertainment http://davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=53.msg214#msg214. It is a very active thread.
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I originally posted this suggesion on the "Book\Film" Forum, but maybe it belongs here
I haven't seen this topic discussed anywhere on these boards, though maybe I'm not looking in the right places:
Brokeback & All 22 of Annie Proulx's Wyoming Stories
Whenever I re-read "Brokeback," I read all the stories in Close Range and Bad Dirt
Bad Dirt has a great story, "Dump Junk," about a woman who actually escapes from Wyoming and finds a long and happy lesbian relationship in San Francisco
I've never seen any posts about that story on these boards
Also, Proulx said in an interview that Wyoming is really the main subject of these stories: the vaste, empty spaces; the rough terrain; the inhospitable weather; the limping economcy; the sense of isolation from "mainstream" America
All these factors play out in Jack & Ennis' relationship--and in the, mostly failed, hetero relationships in the other stories
Except for that lesbian couple, there are no happy families in Proulx's Wyoming stories. And I feel Jack and Ennis are better understood in this context
Also, one reason I dislike Cassie so much is that she seems to have wandered in from "A Lonely Coast," another story in Close Range about three hard drinking, sexually agressive, desperate divorcees who are looking for sex in all the wrong places and with all the wrong cowboys.
I consider "A Lonely Coast" to be the hetero version of "Brokeback." Believe me, Jack & Ennis come off way more sympathetically than Josanna Skiles and and her slezoid boyfriend, Elk Nelson.
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I posted a message on the Book\Movie Suggest New Topic Thread suggesting a thread to discuss
Brokeback in the Context of all Proulx's Wyoming Stories published in Close Range & Bad Dirt
This maybe somewhat academic, but I feel Proulx does for Wyoming what Joyce did for Dublin, and the individual stories reflect and reverberate off one another
Proulx has a great story about a woman who actually escapes her Wyoming roots and finds a long and satisfying lesbian relationship in San Francisco--and it's the only "happy family" in any of the 22 stories ("Dump Junk" in Bad Dirt)
There are no happy heterosexual families in Proulx's Wyoming stories, and I feel Jack & Ennis need to be seen in that context
Any other Proulx fans interested in this idea for a new thread???
Check out Annie's thread in Arts and Entertainment http://davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=53.msg214#msg214. It is a very active thread.
Thanks for the tip, Bobbie
As these Forums and threads proliferate, I'm getting all confuddled about the best place to post messages on various topics.
Is it possible to do a topic search on "Annie Proulx" or "Close Range" to see what threads are already started and what Forums they reside on?
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On the National Critics Award and on the Golden Globes, I think I heard Diana Ossana and Ang Lee pronounced Annie's last name as "prool".
Am I just hearing them wrong?
Diana is speaking right now and she said "prool".
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bbbmedia,
Try the blue search button at the top of the screen under the photo banner.
Bobbie
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I'm almost finished reading Annie Proulx's BAD DIRT (Wyoming 2) Short stories. I LOVE the story titles she uses...
One in particular is (I hope I get this right - don't have the book in front of me) "What Furniture Would Jesus Pick".
There's the every familiar rancher character in this one whose sons have left and moved to Colorado (not interested in ranching like their dad). Rancher gets to see one of his sons and asks him how his brother is doing. His son replies that his brother is "well....considering his 'lifestyle'. Rancher has NO idea what he means by 'lifestyle'. All the son would say is that his brother is 'different' and he's more 'SOPHISTICATED' - that has to be the most interesting code word for "GAY" that I've ever read!
The rancher does recall when the 'sophisticated' son was growing up - around 9 years old or so...he became 'attached' to a handsome, blond, muscular ranch hand and followed him around.......a major clue there....
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In Close Range (the anthology in which BBM is featured) there is a story about a bull rider. I think it is called 'The Mud Below' I read that after I read BBM and it colored a bit my impressions of Jack during his rodeo days - the long drives between rodeos, the constant danger of injury (or death) and the dirt poor status of most of the rodeo 'cowboys' It's no wonder marraige to Lureen would have been tempting.
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I'm almost finished reading Annie Proulx's BAD DIRT (Wyoming 2) Short stories. I LOVE the story titles she uses...
One in particular is (I hope I get this right - don't have the book in front of me) "What Furniture Would Jesus Pick".
There's the every familiar rancher character in this one whose sons have left and moved to Colorado (not interested in ranching like their dad). Rancher gets to see one of his sons and asks him how his brother is doing. His son replies that his brother is "well....considering his 'lifestyle'. Rancher has NO idea what he means by 'lifestyle'. All the son would say is that his brother is 'different' and he's more 'SOPHISTICATED' - that has to be the most interesting code word for "GAY" that I've ever read!
The rancher does recall when the 'sophisticated' son was growing up - around 9 years old or so...he became 'attached' to a handsome, blond, muscular ranch hand and followed him around.......a major clue there....
At one point Jack suggests the only thing he and Ennis can do is move to Denver. I always think of this story whenever I hear\read that line
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Just a suggestion, but considering how little attention both threads are getting, this thread should be merged with "All about Annie"
At least then Annie's life and works will be in the same place
And still get 1% as many posts as Jakes Eyelashes.
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Fresh interview with Annie from AP (via Yahoo!):
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060123/ap_on_en_mo/oscars_film_brokeback_proulx_q_a
Interesting quote on people who might have trouble with the film:
The only people who would have problems with it are people who are very insecure about themselves and their own sexuality and who would be putting up a defense, and that's usually young men who haven't figured things out yet. Jack and Ennis would probably have trouble with this movie.
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Noticed today that Brokeback Mountain which has been #1 on the LA Times best seller list for several weeks was today joined by Close Range at #5
Folks can't get enough of Annie!
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I'm just finished "Close Range" and reading "That Old Ace In The Hole" now. Both books are entertaining but nothing can beat BBM. :)
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Annie's Brokeback Mountain story is the most sparse and compressed narrative i've ever read.
I'm new to this forum, but had asked (just this morning) the administrator if i could post the selling of THE VERY FIRST EDITION of Brokeback Mountain (instead of putting it on e-bay, i thought you'd all enjoy it way more). Ive seen the New Yorker Magazine sell for almost $300, and I need funds right now, but thought Id offer it here for $200 to the first grabber,.... and then I saw the movie (just over 6 hours ago now) and WOW! Well, havent heard from the administrator, and not sure I need to now (do i want to part with this short story!). God let it win BEST PICTURE! Either way tho, weve come a long way baby!
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I'm new to this forum, but had asked (just this morning) the administrator if i could post the selling of THE VERY FIRST EDITION of Brokeback Mountain (instead of putting it on e-bay, i thought you'd all enjoy it way more). Ive seen the New Yorker Magazine sell for almost $300, and I need funds right now, but thought Id offer it here for $200 to the first grabber,.... and then I saw the movie (just over 6 hours ago now) and WOW! Well, havent heard from the administrator, and not sure I need to now (do i want to part with this short story!). God let it win BEST PICTURE! Either way tho, weve come a long way baby!
Erik, I would suggest waiting to hear from the administrator on this issue.
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This may be way ahead of the game, but I was thinking, after all the fanzine frenzy dies down and the "isn't Jake adorable" crowd moves on to something else, the few of us left who know how to read and write could establish every October 13 as Brokeback Day, the way the Joyceans have transformed June 16 into Bloomsday.
We could gather in a pub, we'd only need one booth or a very small table, take turns reading the story and the screenplay, and perhaps one or two of Annie's other Wyoming stories, or all 22 Wyoming stories if we wanted to make a night of it.
Eventually Jake will no longer be adorable. But Annie's stories will stay fresh forever.
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This may be way ahead of the game, but I was thinking, after all the fanzine frenzy dies down and the "isn't Jake adorable" crowd moves on to something else, the few of us left who know how to read and write could establish every October 13 as Brokeback Day, the way the Joyceans have transformed June 16 into Bloomsday.
We could gather in a pub, we'd only need one booth or a very small table, take turns reading the story and the screenplay, and perhaps one or two of Annie's other Wyoming stories, or all 22 Wyoming stories if we wanted to make a night of it.
Eventually Jake will no longer be adorable. But Annie's stories will stay fresh forever.
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the few of us left who know how to read and write could establish every October 13 as Brokeback Day, the way the Joyceans have transformed June 16 into Bloomsday.
bbmedia, I concur but I have to ask (and am I gonna feel silly when I hear the answer) what is the significance of October 13th? Was that the New Yorker issue date?
I agree with you other sentiments - I love Annie's other works too - I just started Postcards
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Thanks Mary. I wondered about the date as well.
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the few of us left who know how to read and write could establish every October 13 as Brokeback Day, the way the Joyceans have transformed June 16 into Bloomsday.
bbmedia, I concur but I have to ask (and am I gonna feel silly when I hear the answer) what is the significance of October 13th? Was that the New Yorker issue date?
I agree with you other sentiments - I love Annie's other works too - I just started Postcards
October 13, 1997 is the cover date of the New Yorker issue in which Brokeback first appeared.
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This may be way ahead of the game, but I was thinking, after all the fanzine frenzy dies down and the "isn't Jake adorable" crowd moves on to something else, the few of us left who know how to read and write could establish every October 13 as Brokeback Day, the way the Joyceans have transformed June 16 into Bloomsday.
It could be a poignant three-day observance: October 11 is National Coming Out Day (commemorating the Oct 11, 1987 March on Washington for Gay and Lesbian Rights.) October 12 is the anniversary of the death of Matthew Shepard. (The fact that those two are one day apart always distresses me.) And then BBM was born on Oct 13. (And, what a coincidence, so was I!)
There are NO coincidences
This is pretty freaking amazing
Thanks for pointing it out tedh
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It could be a poignant three-day observance: October 11 is National Coming Out Day (commemorating the Oct 11, 1987 March on Washington for Gay and Lesbian Rights.) October 12 is the anniversary of the death of Matthew Shepard. (The fact that those two are one day apart always distresses me.) And then BBM was born on Oct 13. (And, what a coincidence, so was I!)
There are NO coincidences
This is pretty freaking amazing
Thanks for pointing it out tedh
Yes thanks
This MUST be included in the gay agenda i think - that leather bound one that WLAGuy was telling us about ;)
I have it on my calendar - will definitely have to watch BBM those days
AH the future when I have my very own copy of BBM
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My, my, my, my, my
I take a brief vacation from Brokeback Mountain (no, I did not go to Broke-aholics rehab!) and find the two Annie Proulx threads have been merged into one on Arts & Entertainment
Well, Adorable Doe Eyed Jake and Grim Tight Lipped Heath will just have to do the best they can without us
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It could be a poignant three-day observance: October 11 is National Coming Out Day (commemorating the Oct 11, 1987 March on Washington for Gay and Lesbian Rights.) October 12 is the anniversary of the death of Matthew Shepard. (The fact that those two are one day apart always distresses me.) And then BBM was born on Oct 13. (And, what a coincidence, so was I!)
This MUST be included in the gay agenda i think - that leather bound one that WLAGuy was telling us about ;)
I have it on my calendar - will definitely have to watch BBM those days
AH the future when I have my very own copy of BBM
An addendum to my original post (and I can't believe I forgot to mention this since they are my favorite movie and favorite play ... well second favorite movie) but on October 13, 1950 "All About Eve" premiered in New York and on October 13, 1962 "Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf?" opened on Broadway. October 13 may just be the gayest day of the year.
As I said before, there are NO co-incidences!
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The people on this Forum have gone out of their minds.
Sending postcards of thanks to Heath & Jake, but NOT to Annie Proulx, Larry McMurtry, and Diana Ossana.
Since when has the piano composed the concerto?
What a world! What a world!!
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The people on this Forum have gone out of their minds.
Sending postcards of thanks to Heath & Jake, but NOT to Annie Proulx, Larry McMurtry, and Diana Ossana.
Since when has the piano composed the concerto?
What a world! What a world!!
bbmedia I would recommend you read sunspots moving explanation about why we chose to focus this campaign on Heath and Jake:
http://davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=565.msg44355#msg44355 (http://davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=565.msg44355#msg44355)
No one is disrespecting or taking anything away from the accomplishments of others involved in the making of the film, but rather taking the time to acknowledge how much we appreciate them making the leap of faith to appear in the film since it had languished for so long without actors to fill the roles of Jack and Ennis.
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The people on this Forum have gone out of their minds.
Sending postcards of thanks to Heath & Jake, but NOT to Annie Proulx, Larry McMurtry, and Diana Ossana.
Since when has the piano composed the concerto?
What a world! What a world!!
And while you're at it, I hope you're sending thank you notes to Joseph Mankewitz and Noel Langley.
Tedh -- You rock!
The only person on these Forums to recognize either quote--and you went 2 for 2
Give yourself 1000 points for Fabulosity!
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The only person on these Forums to recognize either quote--and you went 2 for 2
Give yourself 1000 points for Fabulosity!
Thanks but those were too easy. If you had quoted "Backstreet Woman" or "Loves of a Blonde" I mighta been stumped.
Totally off topic but -- back in the early 80's, when I was very young, I ended up doing a show with a man named Ondine (he was one of Warhol's "superstars" and the funniest man I ever met in my life.) Anyway, he told me that in the 50's, when you wanted to find out if someone was gay, you'd take them to a revival of "All About Eve" and if they laughed, you knew.
And if they quoted all the dialog from memory, then you absolutely had to see their apartment!
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Check out a brand new thread, Thinking About Some Brokeback Mountain Think Pieces.
http://davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=1259.0
Let’s deconstruct the dudes who try to deconstruct our favorite movie.
Feel free to double-post from older threads.
And don’t be shy. If you have lots to say, please go ahead and say it. (Something I know us literary types excell at!) ;)
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I only just found this little thread tucked away...
I read the Shipping News, whilst on holiday in Fuerte Ventura... And it was amazing to be able to consentrate fully (as you must do when reading AP)... I was so astounded I bought the DVD when I got home, and was utterly disappointed... Much of the book was missed from the film...
The first book however that I read by AP was That Ole Ace in the Hole... Anyone else here read it...? It was amazing...
The main feeling I always get from an AP novel is that I want to visit that place desperately...
1) Shipping News - I wanted to go to Newfoundland and sit in a little cafe in a remote fishing village...
2) That Ole Ace - I so wanted to go and tour the hog farms in the Texas Panhandle...
All mad I know but AP writes in such a style as to entice you into the location of the prose...!!!
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I read "Shipping News" ten years ago, "Close Range" four or five years ago, and "That old Ace in the hole" and "Bad Dirt" recently. I have not read "Accordian crimes" nor "Heartsongs."
I have read "Brokeback Mountain" three times, including the time I read "Close Range."
I wish I knew how Annie reacted to the loss of the "Best Picture" Oscar last Sunday. :(
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The main feeling I always get from an AP novel is that I want to visit that place desperately...
[...]
2) That Ole Ace - I so wanted to go and tour the hog farms in the Texas Panhandle...
All mad I know but AP writes in such a style as to entice you into the location of the prose...!!!
lol! Zudos -- you do NOT want to tour a hog farm, in the Panhandle or anywhere else! Please trust me on this! You will not find it enticing! Them hogs are NOT happy, they are NOT quiet, they are shoulder-to-shoulder in giant metel sheds. And then... the smell. The smell. Words fail me here. I can only say: Honey, it ain't Shalimar! One whiff of that, you'll prob'ly never eat pigmeat again....
Dal
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I wish I knew how Annie reacted to the loss of the "Best Picture" Oscar last Sunday. :(
I'm thinking that she's seen a lot, and won't let Hollywood antics get to her, much.
"Seen a lot".... you know, she really has a scary insight into human misery. And look at what she writes about, and the awful fates she hands her characters (save That Old Ace).
Small examples: she sees an old cowboy watching a snooker game, and bingo, imagines Brokeback so accurately that we who have lived it cannot believe it is not real. And Ennis' inhaling the shirt -- not every author knows that people do that. She is the Encyclopedia of Hell.
I surely, surely hope for her sake, that very little of her knowledge of life in Hell is derived from personal experience.
Dal
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The main feeling I always get from an AP novel is that I want to visit that place desperately...
[...]
2) That Ole Ace - I so wanted to go and tour the hog farms in the Texas Panhandle...
All mad I know but AP writes in such a style as to entice you into the location of the prose...!!!
lol! Zudos -- you do NOT want to tour a hog farm, in the Panhandle or anywhere else! Please trust me on this! You will not find it enticing! Them hogs are NOT happy, they are NOT quiet, they are shoulder-to-shoulder in giant metel sheds, and they do NOT smell good. No indeedy. Prob'ly never eat pigmeat again....
Dal
Stop shattering my romantic vision..>!!!lol
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I wish I knew how Annie reacted to the loss of the "Best Picture" Oscar last Sunday. :(
I'm thinking that she's seen a lot, and won't let Hollywood antics get to her, much.
"Seen a lot".... you know, she really has a scary insight into human misery. And look at what she writes about, and the awful fates she hands her characters (save That Old Ace).
Small examples: she sees an old cowboy watching a snooker game, and bingo, imagines Brokeback so accurately that we who have lived it cannot believe it is not real. And Ennis' inhaling the shirt -- not every author knows that people do that. She is the Encyclopedia of Hell.
I surely, surely hope for her sake, that very little of her knowledge of life in Hell is derived from personal experience.
Dal
I just found this over on Backstage Forums. I think you can get the gist of how Annie Proulx felt.
http://books.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,,1727309,00.html#article_continue
Blood on the red carpet
Annie Proulx on how her Brokeback Oscar hopes were dashed by Crash
Saturday March 11, 2006
The Guardian
On the sidewalk stood hordes of the righteous, some leaning forward like wind-bent grasses, the better to deliver their imprecations against gays and fags to the open windows of the limos - the windows open by order of the security people - creeping toward the Kodak Theater for the 78th Academy Awards. Others held up sturdy, professionally crafted signs expressing the same hatred.
The red carpet in front of the theatre was larger than the Red Sea. Inside, we climbed grand staircases designed for showing off dresses. The circular levels filled with men in black, the women mostly in pale, frothy gowns. Sequins, diamonds, glass beads, trade beads sparkled like the interior of a salt mine. More exquisite dresses appeared every moment, some made from six yards of taffeta, and many with sweeping trains that demanded vigilance from strolling attendees lest they step on a mermaid's tail. There was one man in a kilt - there is always one at award ceremonies - perhaps a professional roving Scot hired to give colour to the otherwise monotone showing of clustered males. Larry McMurtry defied the dress code by wearing his usual jeans and cowboy boots.
The people connected with Brokeback Mountain, including me, hoped that, having been nominated for eight Academy awards, it would get Best Picture as it had at the funny, lively Independent Spirit awards the day before. (If you are looking for smart judging based on merit, skip the Academy Awards next year and pay attention to the Independent Spirit choices.) We should have known conservative heffalump academy voters would have rather different ideas of what was stirring contemporary culture. Roughly 6,000 film industry voters, most in the Los Angeles area, many living cloistered lives behind wrought-iron gates or in deluxe rest-homes, out of touch not only with the shifting larger culture and the yeasty ferment that is America these days, but also out of touch with their own segregated city, decide which films are good. And rumour has it that Lions Gate inundated the academy voters with DVD copies of Trash - excuse me - Crash a few weeks before the ballot deadline. Next year we can look to the awards for controversial themes on the punishment of adulterers with a branding iron in the shape of the letter A, runaway slaves, and the debate over free silver.
After a good deal of standing around admiring dresses and sucking up champagne, people obeyed the stentorian countdown commands to get in their seats as "the show" was about to begin. There were orders to clap and the audience obediently clapped. From the first there was an atmosphere of insufferable self-importance emanating from "the show" which, as the audience was reminded several times, was televised and being watched by billions of people all over the world. Those lucky watchers could get up any time they wished and do something worthwhile, like go to the bathroom. As in everything related to public extravaganzas, a certain soda pop figured prominently. There were montages, artfully meshed clips of films of yesteryear, live acts by Famous Talent, smart-ass jokes by Jon Stewart who was witty and quick, too witty, too quick, too eastern perhaps for the somewhat dim LA crowd. Both beautiful and household-name movie stars announced various prizes. None of the acting awards came Brokeback's way, you betcha. The prize, as expected, went to Philip Seymour Hoff-man for his brilliant portrayal of Capote, but in the months preceding the awards thing, there has been little discussion of acting styles and various approaches to character development by this year's nominees. Hollywood loves mimicry, the conversion of a film actor into the spittin' image of a once-living celeb. But which takes more skill, acting a person who strolled the boulevard a few decades ago and who left behind tapes, film, photographs, voice recordings and friends with strong memories, or the construction of characters from imagination and a few cold words on the page? I don't know. The subject never comes up. Cheers to David Strathairn, Joaquin Phoenix and Hoffman, but what about actors who start in the dark?
Everyone thanked their dear old mums, scout troop leaders, kids and consorts. More commercials, more quick wit, more clapping, beads of sweat, Stewart maybe wondering what evil star had lighted his way to this labour. Despite the technical expertise and flawlessly sleek set evocative of 1930s musicals, despite Dolly Parton whooping it up and Itzhak Perlman blending all the theme music into a single performance (he represented "culchah"), there was a kind of provincial flavour to the proceedings reminiscent of a small-town talent-show night. Clapping wildly for bad stuff enhances this. There came an atrocious act from Hustle and Flow, Three 6 Mafia's violent rendition of "It's Hard Out Here for a Pimp", a favourite with the audience who knew what it knew and liked. This was a big winner, a bushel of the magic gold-coated gelded godlings going to the rap group.
The hours sped by on wings of boiler plate. Brokeback's first award was to Argentinean Gustavo Santaolalla for the film's plangent and evocative score. Later came the expected award for screenplay adaptation to Diana Ossana and Larry McMurtry, and only a short time later the director's award to Ang Lee. And that was it, three awards, putting it on equal footing with King Kong. When Jack Nicholson said best picture went to Crash, there was a gasp of shock, and then applause from many - the choice was a hit with the home team since the film is set in Los Angeles. It was a safe pick of "controversial film" for the heffalumps.
After three-and-a-half hours of butt-numbing sitting we stumbled away, down the magnificent staircases, and across the red carpet. In the distance men were shouting out limousine numbers, "406 . . . 27 . . . 921 . . . 62" and it seemed someone should yell "Bingo!" It was now dark, or as dark as it gets in the City of Angels. As we waited for our number to be called we could see the enormous lighted marquee across the street announcing that the "2006 Academy Award for Best Picture had gone to Crash". The red carpet now had taken on a different hue, a purple tinge.
The source of the colour was not far away. Down the street, spreading its baleful light everywhere, hung a gigantic, vertical, electric-blue neon sign spelling out S C I E N T O L O G Y.
"Seven oh six," bawled the limo announcer's voice. Bingo.
For those who call this little piece a Sour Grapes Rant, play it as it lays.
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I have read all the Wyoming stories (Close Range and Bad Dirt) and have found them to be mostly good but a bit unevenin holding my attention. The style and language are lean and strongly reflective of the people about whom she writes. Of course "Brokeback Mountain" would be one that draws most favorable commentary because it deals with a universal theme of love and loss in ways that the others don't They are more reflective of specific people or "types" found in the high plain, scratching out their livings. However, some of those people are reflected also in BBMtn in the form of Jack's parents and others whose lives are far from easy.
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Thank you for the link, Felicia. I have to draw attention to this deliciously wicked stab at the mentality she observed at the awards ceremony. Annie was not impressed by LA's vaunted sophistication:
Despite the technical expertise and flawlessly sleek set evocative of 1930s musicals [...] there was a kind of provincial flavour to the proceedings reminiscent of a small-town talent-show night. Clapping wildly for bad stuff enhances this. There came an atrocious act from Hustle and Flow, Three 6 Mafia's violent rendition of "It's Hard Out Here for a Pimp", a favourite with the audience who knew what it knew and liked. This was a big winner, a bushel of the magic gold-coated gelded godlings going to the rap group.
But this part of the article really makes me appreciate Annie Proulx:
[...]there has been little discussion of acting styles and various approaches to character development by this year's nominees. Hollywood loves mimicry, the conversion of a film actor into the spittin' image of a once-living celeb. But which takes more skill, acting a person who strolled the boulevard a few decades ago and who left behind tapes, film, photographs, voice recordings and friends with strong memories, or the construction of characters from imagination and a few cold words on the page? I don't know. The subject never comes up. [...] what about actors who start in the dark?
Heath Ledger has been cruelly shortchanged in this fiasco. Though he can't speak for himself (nor should he have to), Annie Proulx has used the power of language to speak for him here. Though Ledger was snubbed by all the major awards ceremonies, this tightly crafted, carefully worded gem of a paragraph will go down as the final word on what makes a good actor. Coming from the author who created the character, this is the highest tribute an actor can ever hope to receive.
Thank you, Annie, for putting Heath Ledger's performance front and center, where it belongs.
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Just here, on my new blog, "Les îles fortunées" (50% BBM), I put today all the complete transcription (better reading it, above all for not very good English-speakers or for quotations) of this marvellous interview of Annie Proulx (the best I've ever heard), on the air on 19 January 2006 (KCRW - Bookworm). I think that the transcription is very very accurate and it has been made by a very good friend of mine from Ukraine. Please, tell me if possible the mistakes you will certainly find in it.
Thanks to everybody here. Thanks.
http://kiribati.blog.lemonde.fr/kiribati/2006/03/bookworm.html
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Thank you for posting that link to the Proulx interview transcription, enzino.
As an alternative, the audio is still available at: http://www.kcrw.com/cgi-bin/db/kcrw.pl?show_code=bw&air_date=1/19/06&tmplt_type=Show.
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Castro and Enzino - thanks so much for the Annie Inteview links. I had not heard it and it is a half our really well spent.
This just out, a review of Annie's Oscar Rant - says she is what "my grandmother would admiringly call, full of piss and vinegar."
http://www.cinematical.com/2006/03/11/if-no-one-reports-on-protesters-at-the-oscars-do-they-really-ex/
I can't believe this lady is 78 years old.
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I enjoyed Shipping News, but I find her stories about Wyoming mostly patronizing, verging on quaint and too dependent on "quirky characters".. The one exception is "Brokeback," which is lovely. But I think McMurty did a wonderful job of opening up the story and letting us see the whole story rather than just Ennis' point of view.. The movie is better than the story.
As a Wyoming girl, I get tired of seeing wyoming as quaint and quirky.
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Annie Proulx writes about Oscar night:
http://books.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,,1727309,00.html
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Thank you for the link, Felicia. I have to draw attention to this deliciously wicked stab at the mentality she observed at the awards ceremony. Annie was not impressed by LA's vaunted sophistication:
Despite the technical expertise and flawlessly sleek set evocative of 1930s musicals [...] there was a kind of provincial flavour to the proceedings reminiscent of a small-town talent-show night. Clapping wildly for bad stuff enhances this. There came an atrocious act from Hustle and Flow, Three 6 Mafia's violent rendition of "It's Hard Out Here for a Pimp", a favourite with the audience who knew what it knew and liked. This was a big winner, a bushel of the magic gold-coated gelded godlings going to the rap group.
But this part of the article really makes me appreciate Annie Proulx:
[...]there has been little discussion of acting styles and various approaches to character development by this year's nominees. Hollywood loves mimicry, the conversion of a film actor into the spittin' image of a once-living celeb. But which takes more skill, acting a person who strolled the boulevard a few decades ago and who left behind tapes, film, photographs, voice recordings and friends with strong memories, or the construction of characters from imagination and a few cold words on the page? I don't know. The subject never comes up. [...] what about actors who start in the dark?
Heath Ledger has been cruelly shortchanged in this fiasco. Though he can't speak for himself (nor should he have to), Annie Proulx has used the power of language to speak for him here. Though Ledger was snubbed by all the major awards ceremonies, this tightly crafted, carefully worded gem of a paragraph will go down as the final word on what makes a good actor. Coming from the author who created the character, this is the highest tribute an actor can ever hope to receive.
Thank you, Annie, for putting Heath Ledger's performance front and center, where it belongs.
This is my first post so I may be doing it all wrong, but I just have to say that I couldn't agree more about Heath and Brava to Annie for saying so!!!
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This is my first post so I may be doing it all wrong, but I just have to say that I couldn't agree more about Heath and Brava to Annie for saying so!!!
Thanks. By all means keep posting here, and let's always bear in mind Annie's focus on Heath Ledger in our own posts. She's trying to tell us something.
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Annie Proulx writes about Oscar night:
http://books.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,,1727309,00.html
Help Annie Proulx!!! CNN running a Poll. Is the "Brokeback" author a sore loser? Please VOTE
http://www.cnn.com/ Bottom right column. Email it to everyone you can. Help Annie!
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Backstage at the Golden Globes awards, Diana Ossana is asked what happens in Ennis's love life after the movie. She answers this:
"Oh goodness, Heath is, Heath is sort of a doomed man really. I think Annie wrote a subsequent short story about Ennis, in which he appears. He actually winds up living with his daughter."
To hear her, click on the video for "Best Screenplay - Motion Picture" at http://www.hfpa.org/videogallery/index.html
Can anyone confirm this, and which story would that be? I've been looking all over at descriptions of Annie's stories, and can't figure out which one it is. I would love to read a bit of what happens to Ennis!
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Ted Casablancas latest:
Dear Ted:
Wanted to comment on this Harry Hamlin talk in your Oscar interview and in your column. I saw Making Love a few months ago, and I was really affected by it--even as a straight female. Making Love was honest and true and groundbreaking for that time. I did not think Brokeback Mountain was nearly as good as Love. It's a shame the film ended Harry's career.
Marion
Dear Het for Harry:
Thanks buckets, darlin', but what would be a real shame is if Annie Proulx, Brokeback author, found out where you lived. Did you just see her drill the Academy a new one for not giving her flick Best Picture? What a nasty bird!
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Ted Casablancas latest:
Dear Het for Harry:
Thanks buckets, darlin', but what would be a real shame is if Annie Proulx, Brokeback author, found out where you lived. Did you just see her drill the Academy a new one for not giving her flick Best Picture? What a nasty bird!
Well, somebody had to do it! :D And Ted is exaggerating and misinforming people. Annie wouldn't care if people didn't like the movie or her story. And she was not up for an award; she was being sympathetic to the BBM team who worked on the movie.
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I'm thinking that she's seen a lot, and won't let Hollywood antics get to her, much.
. She is the Encyclopedia of Hell.
I surely, surely hope for her sake, that very little of her knowledge of life in Hell is derived from personal experience.
Dal
'Scuze me, all you gotta do is keep your eyes open, honey.
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I've heard no one comment about the illustrations in the Close Range book by William Matthews - I have on my desk the painting of Jack, with the eagle feather in his hat - not the young Jack: he wears a moustashe.
The other paintings by Matthews in this book are terrific. One days I'll hunt down a copy for my library.
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I've heard no one comment about the illustrations in the Close Range book by William Matthews - I have on my desk the painting of Jack, with the eagle feather in his hat - not the young Jack: he wears a moustashe.
The other paintings by Matthews in this book are terrific. One days I'll hunt down a copy for my library.
What edition are you looking at?
I have the "First Scribner trade paperback edition 2003," with a William Matthew painting on the cover, but no illustrations inside.
Do I need to buy the hardcover edition to get the illustrations?
BTW: Just realized Annie Proulx shares the same publisher with my other favorite American woman author: Edith Wharton
There are no co-incidences!
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What edition are you looking at?
I have the "First Scribner trade paperback edition 2003," with a William Matthew painting on the cover, but no illustrations inside.
Do I need to buy the hardcover edition to get the illustrations?
BTW: Just realized Annie Proulx shares the same publisher with my other favorite American woman author: Edith Wharton
There are no co-incidences!
Yep - you need to get the Hardcover edition of it. I'm also not entirely sure if the 'newer' prints have it (I bought mine a LONG time before Brokeback Mountain became the phenomenom it is now - even managed to get it signed)
Rob
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FYI...William Matthews has a gallery in lower DownTown Denver ("LoDo") right across the street from Rockmount Ranch Wear which supplied the shirts worn by Heath and Jake in BBM. Matthews I think has a studio up near Evergreen located in the foothills west of Denver. Matthews has been called a modern day Remington for his brilliant water colors of cowboys and western life. I thought I recognized his artwork on some of Annie's books, possibly "Close Range" which includes the original Brokeback Mountain short story.
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FYI...William Matthews has a gallery in lower DownTown Denver ("LoDo") right across the street from Rockmount Ranch Wear which supplied the shirts worn by Heath and Jake in BBM. Matthews I think has a studio up near Evergreen located in the foothills west of Denver. Matthews has been called a modern day Remington for his brilliant water colors of cowboys and western life. I thought I recognized his artwork on some of Annie's books, possibly "Close Range" which includes the original Brokeback Mountain short story.
Each story in the early edition has an illus. by Matthews. Annie said in foreward she was delighted that Scribners went for this idea, that is to include illus by Matthews. I have a copy of the picture of Jack with eagle feather but would like this edition for my library
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FYI...William Matthews has a gallery in lower DownTown Denver ("LoDo") right across the street from Rockmount Ranch Wear which supplied the shirts worn by Heath and Jake in BBM. Matthews I think has a studio up near Evergreen located in the foothills west of Denver. Matthews has been called a modern day Remington for his brilliant water colors of cowboys and western life. I thought I recognized his artwork on some of Annie's books, possibly "Close Range" which includes the original Brokeback Mountain short story.
Each story in the early edition has an illus. by Matthews. Annie said in foreward she was delighted that Scribners went for this idea, that is to include illus by Matthews. I have a copy of the picture of Jack with eagle feather but would like this edition for my library
I see on Wm Matthews website you can get a Close Range first edition autographed by Matthews for a hundred bucks - drool drool -
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FYI...William Matthews has a gallery in lower DownTown Denver ("LoDo") right across the street from Rockmount Ranch Wear which supplied the shirts worn by Heath and Jake in BBM. Matthews I think has a studio up near Evergreen located in the foothills west of Denver. Matthews has been called a modern day Remington for his brilliant water colors of cowboys and western life. I thought I recognized his artwork on some of Annie's books, possibly "Close Range" which includes the original Brokeback Mountain short story.
Each story in the early edition has an illus. by Matthews. Annie said in foreward she was delighted that Scribners went for this idea, that is to include illus by Matthews. I have a copy of the picture of Jack with eagle feather but would like this edition for my library
I see on Wm Matthews website you can get a Close Range first edition autographed by Matthews for a hundred bucks - drool drool -
That's actually a good deal! Wm Matthews does such great work ...his original watercolors start at $3,000 and that's just the small ones. I wonder if with the success of BBM and Annie's Close Range book, if he has any of the illustrations in his gallery..???
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Thanks for your support!
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FYI...William Matthews has a gallery in lower DownTown Denver ("LoDo") right across the street from Rockmount Ranch Wear which supplied the shirts worn by Heath and Jake in BBM. Matthews I think has a studio up near Evergreen located in the foothills west of Denver. Matthews has been called a modern day Remington for his brilliant water colors of cowboys and western life. I thought I recognized his artwork on some of Annie's books, possibly "Close Range" which includes the original Brokeback Mountain short story.
Each story in the early edition has an illus. by Matthews. Annie said in foreward she was delighted that Scribners went for this idea, that is to include illus by Matthews. I have a copy of the picture of Jack with eagle feather but would like this edition for my library
I see on Wm Matthews website you can get a Close Range first edition autographed by Matthews for a hundred bucks - drool drool -
That's actually a good deal! Wm Matthews does such great work ...his original watercolors start at $3,000 and that's just the small ones. I wonder if with the success of BBM and Annie's Close Range book, if he has any of the illustrations in his gallery..???
It's a better deal than paying $100,000 for The Shirts
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Speaking of The Shirts, you can order the SAME shirts from the Rockmount Ranch Wear Store that supplied the shirts for the film for only $55. The store is located right across the street from William Matthews art gallery in "LoDo" (lower downtown Denver) - talk about 'one-stop BBM shopping'!
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hEY ALL--FIRST POST IN HERE.
I'm continually astounded at the number of threads, thought I'd seen them all and then every day for a week I see another! Baffling...and delightful!1
I never read anything by Annie until BBM. I'm not going to talk about BBM.
Since Feb I've read That Old Ace In the Hole. I found it difficult to get into. It was supposed to be funny but I just didn't get it. Then I realised that the fault was MINE not the books. I'm born/raised in the Big City, and it struck me that unless I could mentally get the hell OUT of a city i'd never get it. So I put it down for a few days and then started from page one.
Guess what. It's hilarious. Freakin Hilarious. Once The City was mentally blocked, I got every bit of humor in that book. That was the trick, to read it NOT as just a book, but a book about rural places people and life. You have to make yourself ONE OF THEM.
Bob Dollar, viewed from that angle really IS an unforgettable figure if there ever was one. And the stories told by the characters sre sooo funny. You have to get into the dialect
I got Bad Dirt: Wyoming Stories 2 this Sunday passed. Now THIS one--short stories about Wyoming <as the title says...sometimes i'm brilliant at saying the obvious!> is great. No problem whatsoever getting into it. The stories are written by a brilliant author and you know it from page one. Each is sooo different! Some are silly, some funny, some sad, some tragic, some a mix of all of the above. I have to tell you that i will remember thius book for a long long time.
Anyone else read either of these books? What did you think on them?
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brokeback_1 -
I love Ace in the Hole. Completely atypical of Proulx. The characters were perfect. West Texas really is a lot like that. One thing though: it's really not "barb-wire". It's "bobwar".
Dal
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I am getting my way through Close Range Ms. Proulx's writing incredibly tight and inspiring. My past favorite was George Eliot but I am afraid she is being replaced. I read constantly, and I'm mostly unaffected, but within sixty pages of Ms. Proulx's work I laughed and cried. In public. On a train from NYC to Philly. I would invite everyone to become more familiar with her work because you will gain a better understanding of where Ennis and Jack came from.
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Loved Shipping News, Ace in the Hole, Close Range, Bad Dirt, of course Brokeback.
But in some ways, along with Brokeback, my favorite is her article "Blood on the Red Carpet", raging over the still-impossible-to-comprehend Oscar loss. It was terse, angry, and boldly stated what nobody else dared. To paraphrase the Oscar acceptance speech of the producer of documentary Anne Frank Remembered back in '95, "in a land of celluloid heroes, [Annie Prouxl] is a true hero".
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Does anyone know of an address where Annie might receive fan mail? I know she's said in interviews that she got lots of letters from people thanking her for writing Brokeback Mountain and it also seems like she said that she still gets some. I haven't been able to find anywhere to write to her, though. :-\ If someone knows anything, please share.
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True confession: I've tried reading Shipping News and just can not get into it
I've read all the Wyoming stories in Close Range and Bad Dirt many times and love them all
But the eccentrics in Shipping News just seem to be out-of-town-tryouts for the funnier eccentrics in the Wyoming stories
And I really don't feel any concern for Quoyle and could care less what happens to him
But that's just my opinion. And who am I to argue with the Pulitzer Prize ???
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GUERA BELLA:
I too tried to find even an e-mail address for Annie Prouxl. The best I could do was her literary agent, on her official website, as follows:
"My U.S. literary agent is Liz Darhansoff at Darhansoff, Verrill & Feldman, 236 W 26th St., Suite 802, NYC 10001 tel 917 305-1300, fax 917 305-1400"
thx
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I read a lot. I bought "Shipping News" the year it came out, and man, I slogged and slogged my
way through it, and then, after oh, 150 pages or so, maybe a little less, I finally got into the
groove, and finished it and liked it a lot.
I didn't search out other stories by her, though. It wasn't until 1997 or 98, when I read "Brokeback
Mountain" that I went on a Proulx spree. I bought and read everything I could get my hands on.
I liked "Accordian Crimes" most, though it's not an easy read, and the one person I recommended
it to had a bit of a problem with it.
Someone much earlier mentioned "The Half-Skinned Steer," a story which I don't fully understand,
but which I love. John Updike edited a book of short stories within the last year or so called
"Best Short Stories of the Twentieth Century," and he included "The Half-Skinned Steer."
I can't imagine what kind of novel she will do next. (Has anyone noticed how few urban
scenes there are in her fiction? That's not a criticism, just an observation. There's a
scene set in New Orleans, but it's in the 19th century. Still, I could practically smell
the city and hear the music coming out of various doorways.).
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ANNIE PROULX ALERT !
Annie is one (of two) Honorees at the upcoming 17th Annual Task Force Leadership Awards in Washington D.C.
The awards on Saturday, May 6, are sponsored by the National Gay & Lesbian Task Force. According to an ad in the Advocate, tickets range from $250 to $350 if ordered by 4/15. The info # they list is: 202-393-5177 x1467 or jthom@theTaskForce.org
It's great to see Annie honored by a national GLBT group !.....
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http://www.annieproulx.com/
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0698925/
http://www.mostlyfiction.com/contemp/proulx.htm
http://www.planetjh.com/testa_2005_12_07_proulx.html
http://www.bibliofemme.com/others/brokeback.shtml
http://lamusclepower.tribe.net/thread/36e65206-dca5-4ffa-b290-c47eb0c5b5ae
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Here's a glimpse of Annie not long before she brought Ennis and Jack into being.
http://www.tucsonweekly.com/tw/04-06-95/collage.htm
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and this:
She is fascinated by the ‘historical stew’ – the gap between what people hoped for, who they thought they were, and what befell them. Her characters are often being ground in the mill of poverty, as she was herself in her middle years.
‘Economics underlies everything that I write,’ is her take on it. ‘It’s change that interests me, social and economic change. I’m a chameleon in a way; I fit myself into different situations by virtue of imagination. I’m constantly slipping into characters’ skins.’
She says this is why she’s not cut out for relationships.
‘It’s not that my marriages were terrible,’ she explains heavily. ‘It’s that I’m not a good person for marriage. I’m not wife material at all. I’m too selfish, too single-minded, too pointed like an arrow at a particular goal. I can’t do all the wifely things. I get hassled and angry and distracted.
'Some people are better off living by themselves, and I’m one of them. I like living by myself. Very much.’
In the silence?
A vehement nod.
from
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/arts/main.jhtml?xml=/arts/2004/12/15/boproulx14.xml&sSheet=/arts/2004/12/15/ixartright.html )
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Those are great - especially that last one. Thanks for the links.
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I just finished BAD DIRT: WYOMING STORIES 2, & am fascinated by the whole Wyoming phenomenon that Annie Proulx has established in her linked stories. I am not a happy camper that I don't have anymore of her Wyoming stories to look forward to. The last ones she published were in 2004. I hope we can expect some more. ANY more stories would be welcome from her. I prefer short fiction to novels at the moment, since I can get through them in one sitting.
At any rate, here are my favorites among the Wyoming stories:
CLOSE RANGE
"Brokeback Mountain" (of course!)
"The Mud Below" (this one is like what might have happened if Jake had been straight & had no equivalent partner like Ennis)
"People in Hell Just Want a Drink of Water" (keeps going in wild directions, & has the best last line in any of the Wyoming stories)
BAD DIRT
"The Hellhole" (an outrageous example of magic realism)
"Florida Rental" (the best of the comic tall tales)
"The Wamsutter Wolf" (the most disturbing portrayal of a marriage & family that I've read in a long time . . . it's up there with the most appalling things in Dickens & Faulkner)
I'm not saying I won't read her novels. I wouldn't mind some prodding on that matter.
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I'm not saying I won't read her novels. I wouldn't mind some prodding on that matter.
I really enjoyed the The Shipping News and Accordion Crimes. I know some folks found The Shipping News hard going, I can say I sometimes wanted to wring Quoyle's neck but I found it compelling
Accordion Crimes is not exactly a novel - more a bunch of related novellas - the accordion being the link between them
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I just ordered her first collection of stories, HEART SONGS & OTHER STORIES, originally from 1988 but reissued in 1995 with a few more stories added. Am dying to read more of her stories! & I assumed someone would mention SHIPPING NEWS right away.
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Hi all, I've been very interested in the comments on 'The Shipping News' here - as I'm now over a 100 pages into it. I'm quite enjoying it - one of the early echoes of BBM there is the starkness of nature in Newfoundland. And hey, the 'it can snow here in May' notion seems to echo the snow in August in BBM too! I rather like Agnes too, and her hidden (dead) girlfriend Warren. I'm not sure what to make of the kids though.
I was interested to hear that she washed her hands of the movie. Although I enjoyed the movie, now that I'm reading the book Kevin Spacey seems very miscast as Quoyle. But I can't help but think of Nutbeem as Rhys Ifans - he seems to have captured the role perfectly.
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Here's a short portion of a passage I read in 'The Shipping News' earlier today (it's the Aunt Agnis Hamm speaking) (pg 229 in my copy):
"I've put quite a bit of money in the old house. It's a shame. Just to use it for a camp. But getting back and forth is a problem. Like they say, what can't be cured must be endured."
Sounds familiar, eh?
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Just picked up Shipping News again. Had put it down at ~ page 100 when I got Close Range. I can't tell if I like it as a book, yet. I know I like the writing, a lot.
Maybe it's me, but: the writing in SN, CR, and Postcards seems more compelling than in Ace in the Hole or, especially, Bad Dirt. My senses are more engaged by her descriptions; there is more power in her hints and elisions; and she can break your heart over a character whom you barely know -- mostly, in the earlier books. Point of view skips and turns, but somehow you always feel connected to the characters, in the earlier works. In the later ones, not so much.
I wish she hadn't had to spend so many years, writing about beekeeping and gardening and whatever.
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The density of detail in her fiction about the technical aspects of settings & scenes carries over to Proulx's fiction in a way I don't see in comparable contemporary writers. While she was doing the nonfiction books, she was also writing short stories & developing a vision of life grounded in the reality of the everyday aspects of place. Her debut as a novelist came at a point she had complete maturity as a writer. I think we can expect further novels & stories from her that have some of her best material. I hope so, at least.
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In an interview with Rolling Stone, Heath Ledger apparently said that Annie had written a continuation of BBM.
Not so much BBM: Part 2, but a story which deals with Ennis and his life, a story set in the Post-Jack years.
If this is the case I wonder if she will ever publish it. Anyone have any info about this? To tell you the truth, IMO I can't see her publishing such a story for a few years at least--it's too close to the brouhaha over our film.
Any FACTUAL INFORMATION concerning such a story AT ALL would be of interest to every member of the Forum, so if by some miracle anybodyactually has factual and reliable info....... post it, PLEASE! Not only post it here but contact the editors of the Daily Sheet so they can let us ALL know.
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OK--I got my hands on issue #996 of Rolling Stone, dated march 23 2006. Heath is the cover story. If THIS is the article I was told about it NOWHERE mentions a post-Jack 'Ennis Story' written by AP.
Either there is nothing of substance to the rumor or Heath was in another RS article at another time. But in this article, there is NOTHING.
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OK--I got my hands on issue #996 of Rolling Stone, dated march 23 2006. Heath is the cover story. If THIS is the article I was told about it NOWHERE mentions a post-Jack 'Ennis Story' written by AP.
Either there is nothing of substance to the rumor or Heath was in another RS article at another time. But in this article, there is NOTHING.
Well I've just gone through past articles with Heath in them via periodical database ['True Grit' 12/15/2005, Issue 989, p161; 'Heath Ledger' 12/29/2005 Issue 990/991, p76; 'Brokeback Mountain' 4/20/2006 Issue 998, p77-77] as well as the one you mention above and see no such mention. Sorry!
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Too bad---too good to be true I guess, Michael!
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Too bad---too good to be true I guess, Michael!
In an interview with The Advocate, Diana Ossana mentioned that she thought Annie Proulx has a "story somewhere" about Ennis' future. Maybe that is where you remember it from. Note also toward the end where Larry M. says something about writing a sequel, in response to being asked what the stupidest question they've been asked is/was. Too bad for us huh, lol. The only really happy ending would have to include Jack, for me, anyway. Oh well. Here's a link.
http://advocate.com/currentstory1_w.asp?id=25277&page=2
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Hey all,
tfferg posted a link to a really wonderful interview with Annie in the 'Postcards' thread. Here it is:
http://www.missourireview.com/index.php?genre=Interviews&title=Interview+with+Annie+Proulx
BTW, if those of you in here haven't been visiting that thread you should. We've finished the book, but there's still lots of discussion about Annie's style and characters.
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I had never read any Annie Proulx until I saw BBM. I immediately bought the short story. I personally think it's one of finest pieces of fiction writing I've ever read. I've read it a number of times and I'm still amazed how incredibly well written it is.
I then bought everything she wrote -- all the novels and all the short stories published in book form. I finished it all about a week ago. She is a very good writer though I don't think anything else she has written quite matches the brilliant genius of BBM as a short story.
One of the things that hit me after I finished reading is that virtually all of her main characters are men and virtually all of her stories are told from their point of view. (The main exception that immediately comes to mind is "A Lonely Coast" in Close Range). And she writes about men and their point of view very well.
I find that very interesting, very curious, and fairly unusual for a women writer. If anyone is still reading this thread, I would appreciate any thoughts that anyone might have about this.
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I had never read any Annie Proulx until I saw BBM. I immediately bought the short story. I personally think it's one of finest pieces of fiction writing I've ever read. I've read it a number of times and I'm still amazed how incredibly well written it is.
I then bought everything she wrote -- all the novels and all the short stories published in book form. I finished it all about a week ago. She is a very good writer though I don't think anything else she has written quite matches the brilliant genius of BBM as a short story.
One of the things that hit me after I finished reading is that virtually all of her main characters are men and virtually all of her stories are told from their point of view. (The main exception that immediately comes to mind is "A Lonely Coast" in Close Range). And she writes about men and their point of view very well.
I find that very interesting, very curious, and fairly unusual for a women writer. If anyone is still reading this thread, I would appreciate any thoughts that anyone might have about this.
It is interesting Silverlake. Actually I like the character of Agnis Hamm in 'The Shipping News' a lot, although she is certainly not the main character there. And Jewell Blood is an interesting character as well.
What is interesting to me (and what we talked a bit about in the discussion of 'Postcards') is how badly many of her male characters wind up. Ennis did not wind up worst by a long shot. If you get a chance you should read our discussion of this on the book club thread. Dal might be someone for you to contact via p.m. to discuss this as well, as he seems to have read an awfully lot of her work as well.
mf
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Well, I've just come to this thread and am glad to have found it as after all that frenetic discussion on other threads about the film it's very restful to get back to the quieter world of books. So I plan to spend some time here, especially as I'm reading Close Range at the moment and am interested in discussing it.
But my first question is bit banal -sorry. I'm interested in book illustration and was disappointed that for some reason the Scribner US 1999 edition of Close Range I obtained through Amazon UK doesn't contain the illustrations to which AP refers in her Acknowledgments. Can anybody post one for me? The BBM one's of most interest obviously -but any would do.
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One of the things that hit me after I finished reading is that virtually all of her main characters are men and virtually all of her stories are told from their point of view. (The main exception that immediately comes to mind is "A Lonely Coast" in Close Range). And she writes about men and their point of view very well.
I find that very interesting, very curious, and fairly unusual for a women writer. If anyone is still reading this thread, I would appreciate any thoughts that anyone might have about this.
I'm sorry I don't recall the occasion, but one interviewer did ask Proulx about this. As I recall her answer, it was something to the effect that in her settings men tended to work outside, and she found this more interesting than the work of women, typically in the confines of the home.
I'm sure that's true, but I'd bet anything she tactfully left something else unsaid: she probably finds "feminine" concerns essentially boring. Gender non-conformities aren't limited to sexual orientation (she's had three husbands and some kids, so there seems no reason to go there). I think that some women are more male, mentally, than female. God knows I say that without knowing precisely what I mean - it isn't just a matter of which part of the brain is stimulated by engineering problems, etc.
And there's something else about her as a writer that interests me. She's admitted that Ennis and Jack were her only two characters that she'd ever fallen in love with. I can't help relating that to the fact that most m/m slash is written by women - most of them straight. A lot of slash is also Hallmarkishly romantic, in a way I can't imagine Proulx writing. But still: I wonder what would happen if she let herself be tempted into writing some slash - a secret indulgence totally apart from her serious work. You suppose she ever watches a television series and thinks, "hmmm"?
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Anybody want to talk about Close Range stories? Had to drop out of the book club for now 'cause I don't have time, but I've read Close Range already so no prob. And they're sure worth talking about.
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"Reality never been of much use out here."
Retired Ranger -- Close Range
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"Reality never been of much use out here."
Now Nikki -- That is very unlike you! In the past you've provided a solid reality check. I hope this quote is not the debut of a new Nikki, who will now provide only unreality checks! :D
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"Reality never been of much use out here."
Now Nikki -- That is very unlike you! In the past you've provided a solid reality check. I hope this quote is not the debut of a new Nikki, who will now provide only unreality checks! :D
Hey Dal! Missed you on July book club. I 'd really like to get involved in this thead on Proulx, but I can't find my Close Range. How does this work -- spot discussions on Proulx or something more regimented? PM me when u can. I always liked that quote -- the old Nikki still lives!
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Speaking of the Close Range, this happened Saturday afternoon, in Cheyenne. Annie told the truth. It's an excerpt of something I posted in the Jack and Ennis sex life thread:
On the other hand, intently watching the competitions in the seats directly in front of me was a Rancher who had to be 85, sitting next to his wife who looked to be 100 years old if she was a day. While listening to Larry the Cable Guy annoy the State of Wyoming, he turned slowly to his wife, obviously pondering something. With classic, glacial rancher speed he said:
' I .....nev....er kneeeew aaanny...wunn who felll iin luuuv wiith noo sheeep.'
[looks at 100 year old wife---continues]
'Diiid.....yoooo?'
[100 year old wife considerss the question---Replies:]
'Umm.....Nope'
I live for moments like that, wooped, and so did the guy next to me. When the hundred year old wife turned around to look at us I tipped my hat, nodded, and said 'Ma'am'. She nodded back. Larry shut up. The Calf Roping continued.
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this post contains: Close Range discussion[/size] -- CAUTION!!! -- May contain Spoilers! [/color]
Well CSI and I volunteered -- and maybe Nikki if her copy of the book turns up. Oh BTW, that would be CANSTANDIT, not Crime Scene Investigation. Anyway here's out first liitle interchange. Our busy schedules insure that this will procede at a (as brokeback_1 says) glacial pace. Please, everybody dive in.
Dal, hey! if you don't mind the girlie point of view, I just finished At Close Range, and loved it! so many different engaging characters.....What do you want to talk about??
You made me laugh. The "girlie" point of view?!
Talk about... well, how about how everybody's always getting butchered! Really, AP's characters earn her living for her -- couldn't she treat them with just a little more consideration? Really now. Slashed to death by an emu (!!!!! -- in Wyo !), frozen to death (or was it eaten by a cougar in the guise of a spectral steer?), gangrene from the dirty knife the neighbors used for his castration, plane crash right in front of his family... another guy frozen-to-death..... oh yes, in the only story I don't like, all those serial victims in the attic. Oh yeah, the poor woman in "Job History" who refuses chemotherapy 'cause she's preggers: delivers, and then the cancer "burns her up." O yes, the drowned baby in "People in Hell etc". And of course the drug-crazed road-rage shoot-out quasi-suicide. I am sure I have forgotten some. What ever happened to dieing of old age occasionally, or at least just dropping dead!
I don't think anybody dies in "Mud Below". Diamond's not dead, he's just lost his 'edge' and he knows it's forever. He still feels that magic exhilerating flush, but it's pale. It's dawn all right, but he knows it's going to be all downhill from here on out. Guess his Ma was right all along! although that fact didn't get her much in the end, her or Diamond either. Hope she had better luck with Pearl.
Did you think Diamond's thingie with his Dad on the carousel, and later w/ the rodeo hands before his each ride, was a little like the dozy embrace?
Ooops, how could I forget?? - Inez, redhead lived next a tha Coffeepot in "Pair a Spurs", nice woman. Lassoing a wolf, horse bucked, she winds up with a broken neck and a mouthful of dirt.
Diamond and Pearl Felts. Car and Train Scrope. A family in one of her novels has boys Xylophone and Tamborine, and girls Harp and Viola!
Good God in Heaven almighty-you remembered alot more than I did and thanks for that....
Pair a Spurs-has it occurred to you the metal rod in the main character is attracting him to the metal in the spurs? Is that the point? That as AP sees it, we can't escape our roots, ie, his first love, or the elements that make up his past?
Are you already way past that?
Yeah, Inez is just another example of his "deadly attraction" ,ie, if you're wearing them spurs, they're gonna keep trying to find there way back to him-in the end he sits at the riverbed where they are trapped under the surface. You know where he's goin'!
yeah, much death and destruction: I wonder is it all about not fighting who you are, cuz it'll kill ya? that makes perfect sense in light of her doing a story about homophobia, because that is ALL about human history resisting it's primal roots, ie, mating and love, in whatever form. IMO, and a stretcher of one, perhaps.
And how about the Half-Skinned Deer, and how the bull eyes the codger at the end and follows him-what do you think happened? Retribution? Wasn't that an awful story? Trying to decide if it was about not following your true path in life, again, ie committing to the skinning; or letting something out of your grasp, and losing contol of it forever. Not super clear on that. Am I being too symbolic?
I don't really fully get the pale rush reference; I thought about that and kind of felt it tied a little into the rape scene, ie, Diamond is giving into what he now is, ie, the dark side. He lost his chance to feel of value with the step-Dad, and it really was the Mom's fault. She turns him out emotionally. I wonder if AP has guilt feelings over her own mothering, and the time her writing took away from her kids.
On the Diamond Felt question;don't you see him as a jaded Jack? I see him as the Jack played by Jake G, isn't that funny? Just some interesing personality traits that remind me of screen Jack, minus the basic innocence that Jack never seems to lose. thoughts?
As to the Dozy Embrace, I confess I never connected that, but should have, because she works her issues thru every story, it seems. Yes, I do see this connection now, thanks much. And it makes perfect sense.[...].
Regards,
Joanne
(CSI)
:)
p.s. Nice Wyo rodeo story brokeback_1
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Hi Dal and All,
Just realized I loaned my copy of Close Range out. May have to buy another, but if y'all are proceedin' at a glacial pace I'll try to catch up. Is that the book you're starting with?
Nikki
P.S. Is that the famous CSI from photo captioning fun? Can I have ur autogaph?
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Hi Dal and All,
Just realized I loaned my copy of Close Range out. May have to buy another, but if y'all are proceedin' at a glacial pace I'll try to catch up. Is that the book you're starting with?
Nikki
P.S. Is that the famous CSI from photo captioning fun? Can I have ur autogaph?
HaH! Famous, Nicki? I think it's more notorious!! Glad you make it over to photocaptioning-It is barrels of laughs, and tears, and a place to really express yourself. Come on down!! ;D You'll get hooked!!
And please join in; there's a lot of ground to cover with Annie's stories, isn't there? I confess to being somewhat lost in one or two of the At Close Range stories...she really goes places.
Thanks.
CSI
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CSI,
I check out photo captions every day or night. Wouldn't miss them -- laugh out loud -- you all are so witty!
Will join the Proulx book as soon as i get mine or new one. I'm also busy with the July book club and lurking on various threads-----and reading slash fiction -------
See ya,
Nikki
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this post contains: Bizarre deaths in AP Stuff discussion, cont. [/size] -- CAUTION!!! -- May contain Spoilers! for this book and that one too [/color]
AP's characters earn her living for her -- couldn't she treat them with just a little more consideration? Really now. Slashed to death by an emu (!!!!! -- in Wyo !), frozen to death (or was it eaten by a cougar in the guise of a spectral steer?), gangrene from the dirty knife the neighbors used for his castration, plane crash right in front of his family... another guy frozen-to-death..... oh yes, in the only story I don't like, all those serial victims in the attic. Oh yeah, the poor woman in "Job History" who refuses chemotherapy 'cause she's preggers: delivers, and then the cancer "burns her up." O yes, the drowned baby in "People in Hell etc". And of course the drug-crazed road-rage shoot-out quasi-suicide. I am sure I have forgotten some. What ever happened to dieing of old age occasionally, or at least just dropping dead!
CSI --
On the train this morning my thoughts idly turned to icky deaths, and I realized that I had, unforgivably, neglected to complete Annie's Grand Guignol. I know I can never fully expiatate this unaccacountable lapse, but please accept this ( I'm sure unsuccessful) attempt to finish the catalogue of horrors.
A fellow is victim of a mass lynching. A fellow in North Dakota plucks a lovely balloon wafting on the gentle airs of spring.... only the balloon turns out to be a balloon bomb released by the Empire of Japan, which promptly blows him to smithereens. A fellow falls into a boiling thermal spring, but manages to climb out! -- but as he staggers, dazed, away, he falls into an adjacent spring, and this time is boiled alive. The suicide of a lonely librarian, drowned in a bathtub after burying herself under a pile of weighty tomes from her own library, lest she have last-minute second thoughts. Yet another suicide; this fellow decapitates himself with a chain saw.
Best I can recall, the Postcards bear did not eat anyone, 'tho he had every opportunity. One has to wonder how Ms. Proulx let such a golden chance slip by, unnoticed. What on earth was she thinking??
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HI all,
How cool to come in here and find you all discussing Close Range. I haven't read them all, because so far I've still had to read them over and over (not as much as BBM, but at least twice).
The Mud Below so far has been my favorite.
Diamond look like Jake? I can see how that would happen, because I sure applied the bull-riding knowledge to Jack's character. HOWEVER Diamond is not so loveable like our Jack, especially our movie Jack. And he's so SHORT.
His mother was really awful, wasn't she? Truly awful, IMO even worse than Jack's or Ennis' father.
But she named her boys Diamiond and Pearl. What are we to make of that?
I kind of think we need a Close Range thread. Until we get one, I suppose we'll keep on here... Dal, spoil away. By now I pretty much expect some decrepit outcome. In some cases death seems almost merciful. :-\ :P
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Spoiler, yes spoiler!
I came back in because I have been re-thinking Diamond's mother. There were times when I actually had some sympathy for her. It sounds like she got pregnant and had to marry the step-dad so she wouldn't be an un-wed mom. Probably the step-dad was not her first choice either. I have even wondered if the step-dad might have got a clue based on Diamond's height as he matured. Maybe he began to look very much like the guy who left town, or something.
Also, when we see Diamond's mother through other's eyes (the guy at the stable, who looks at her like she's hot buttered toast) we realize maybe Diamond's point of view is a bit jaded. AND as a mother I know she is trying to guide him into a better life, an education, and disappointed he went into bull riding.
What did she give up for Diamond?
"EVERYTHING, you hard little man" I suppose there is a bit of transference going on there, the memory of Diamond's father must be very bitter.
Whew, thanks for letting me get that out of my system.
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Dal,
Finally got Close Range -- this is a library book, but that's ok. Which story for how long?
Cheers,
Nikki
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Dal and I were thinking on discussing The Mud Below first-- it's my favorite of the other stories in Close Range, too. And I most certainly applied a lot of the bullriding information to understanding Jack, or at least the world he came from. But I gotta admit, I never thought of Diamond as anything like Jake's Jack (say that three times fast ;D). I did, however, think that Annie says something about him that absolutely describes Ennis to me: He knew he had little talent for friendship or affection, stood armored against love, though when it did come down on him later it came like an axe and he was slaughtered by it.
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Thanks Jenny. The Mud Below it is then. Right now I'm involved in the August book club, so will catch up after I "refresh" my reading of the story, unless y'all change your minds.
Ciao,
Nikki
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Why Dal, Diamond and Pearl were the family jewels -- like that for a metaphor!! Got to get back to the other book club. Hey this is reall exhilerating !!
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Oh, goody! TMB it is then.
It's a great story, in't it?! Lot of good lines and phrases. Love the way she starts without warming up first: "Rodeo night in a hot little Okie town" -- sounds like anticipation and excitement, no? The rest of the sentence is kind of a series of disorienting turns, goes on till you're out of breath, but then full stop, breath, and "There was a sultry feeling of weather." Very nice.
I'm like you guys, I don't think Diamond is much like Jack really. In a way Jack is not, Diamond is hard IMO. Except to his father. I think Diamond's own "single moment of artless, charmed happiness" was when his Dad steadied him on the merry-go-round bull, the nice one with the friendly twinkle in it's eye. Not the same litter as Little Kisses I guess.
tellyouwhat, it's a good thing you took back a little of the badmouthing you gave Diamond's Ma -- I was going to have to challenge you to a duel, in defense of her honor ;) Well, a little bit anyway. Nobody here here is good as Jack, or as bad as John C. IMO!
Diamond loved his Dad a whole lot, and there's no reason to think Dad did not feel the same way, until the bad news. Far as Diamond's concerned, Mom is 100% the reason Dad essentially slapped Diamond, and disappeared. And we see Ma pretty much thru Diamond's eyes. I think she's much more complex than that. IMO you're right about her "back-story" -- it's the key to her attitude toward Diamond. I can't exactly tell what her story is though. Maybe she was seduced and abandoned? I'm thinking more likely she was young and she just loved the wrong guy, a guy a much like Diamond: short, stubborn, selfish. The rabbit died and the no-good SOB was history. She managed to con a chump into stepping in, but every time she looked at Diamond she saw her own stupid mistake. "You're a royal pain, Shorty, and you always were, right from day one." Actually she was prob'ly slaughtered by love a long time ago too, and armored against it ever since? -- in a way. And I think you're right, D.'s real Dad was a runt -- that's exactly why Ma keeps calling him "Shorty." Also I think you're right about dad's picking up the resemblace too, as D. got older.
Her good qualities: she does her best to provide, and to steer him into a life with a predictable future. OK, so he'll be Monroe, but he won't be Surabaya Johnny like his Dad, or worse, an object of pity like that brain-damaged champion bull-rider. Not so easy raising two alone. And Diamond does not "get" that. How sharper than a serpent's tooth is the, errrrrr ...... what ever it is.
That "Everything!" I don't know. Sounds like her whole life, a cri du couer. His conception cost her his no-good Dad, and then the resemblance cost her her marriage? And she spent the best years of her life providing for him and his brother, to see them safely out of the ranch life -- think "Leecil Bewd." Salt of the earth, but it has its downside. To see all those years go right down the drain -- he's as stubborn as his real father.
For all her faults, I wish her the best, cause she did not have the easiest row to hoe. I hope that guy marries her, and Pearl becomes Monroe!. I may be that business about "The course of life's events seemed slower than the knife but just as thorough" is meant for her as well as for D, I don't know.
Diamond is a real SOB in many ways, right? You got to hand it to AP: once again, she makes you pity a jerk. He is a jerk, but you see why, or a least a little bit. D'you think there's a sort of replication across generations thing going on too maybe, bitter mother punishing kid for his father's sins, turning him into a man who will commit sins against other women? At the end, you see how little it has all gotten him. He really has no idea who he is, other than a bull rider, and that is fading fast. "Diamond Felts -- Bull Rider!" -- and that's it. Doesn't know who his father was; doesn't have a friend.
My thoughts.... but I reserve the right to change them at any time. I need to re-read the story start to finish, been a while. Right after I get caught up with the book club. I know -- I'll just quit my job!
she named her boys Diamiond and Pearl. What are we to make of that?
I always assumed Diamond was APs choice rather than the parents' -- because he is so hard. Don't know about Pearl. Maybe it has to do with Ma's careful civiliziling influece on the lad or something? You take a hard abrasive thing of no value, and give it a nice thick coat of something you've aquired at great cost (metabolic cost, in the oyster's case), and you have something to be proud of. Or at least something that won't irritate you. Diamond certainly irritated his Ma, di'n't he?!
Oh yeah.... "slaughtered by love" -- what does Diamond love so much that it slaughtered him?
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That "Everything!" I don't know. Sounds like her whole life, a cri du couer. His conception cost her his no-good Dad, and then the resemblance cost her her marriage? And she spent the best years of her life providing for him and his brother, to see them safely out of the ranch life -- think "Leecil Bewd." Salt of the earth, but it has its downside. To see all those years go right down the drain -- he's as stubborn as his real father.
For all her faults, I wish her the best, cause she did not have the easiest row to hoe. I hope that guy marries her, and Pearl becomes Monroe!. I may be that business about "The course of life's events seemed slower than the knife but just as thorough" is meant for her as well as for D, I don't know.
Diamond is a real SOB in many ways, right? You got to hand it to AP: once again, she makes you pity a jerk. He is a jerk, but you see why, or a least a little bit. D'you think there's a sort of replication across generations thing going on too maybe, bitter mother punishing kid for his father's sins, turning him into a man who will commit sins against other women? At the end, you see how little it has all gotten him. He really has no idea who he is, other than a bull rider, and that is fading fast. "Diamond Felts -- Bull Rider!" -- and that's it. Doesn't know who his father was; doesn't have a friend.
My thoughts.... but I reserve the right to change them at any time. I need to re-read the story start to finish, been a while. Right after I get caught up with the book club. I know -- I'll just quit my job!
she named her boys Diamiond and Pearl. What are we to make of that?
I always assumed Diamond was APs choice rather than the parents' -- because he is so hard. Don't know about Pearl. Maybe it has to do with Ma's careful civiliziling influece on the lad or something? You take a hard abrasive thing of no value, and give it a nice thick coat of something you've aquired at great cost (metabolic cost, in the oyster's case), and you have something to be proud of. Or at least something that won't irritate you. Diamond certainly irritated his Ma, di'n't he?!
Oh yeah.... "slaughtered by love" -- what does Diamond love so much that it slaughtered him?
Yes, Diamond is a real SOB - the only hint we get that he will ever be redeemable is that line that when love came it slaughtered him -- but we don't see that in the time frame of the story. Of course, it is an important line. It tells us that one day love will slaughter Diamond, and then he will have to change.
But I agree with you, if his step-father had stayed, and followed through with their plans for the weekend, and stayed beyond that, he might have turned out very different. I think you might be right that the generations are repeating history -- bad fathering, bad results, over and over.
And I think you are right about the comparison of Diamond (hard, cutting) and Pearl (complex, evolved)
On one level we are to believe that the mother who named her boys these colorful names must have valued them highly.
On another level, we know Annie Proulx assigned their characters to go with their names.
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Spoilers
Just wanted to comment on a quote (from CSI, I think, but I'm not absolutely sure-- bad nesters! Bad! ;D) I agree completely that the embrace Diamond needs, and gets, before he begins his ride, echoes the steadying embrace of his father who was still his father, back when he was five, and held him safely on the merry-go-round bull. And it is a close cousin to "that artless moment of charmed happiness" Jack "remembered and craved in a way he could neither help nor understand". One of Annie's signature themes is fatherlessness, particularly because the father is incapable of truly loving his son, but also because he has disappeared from his son's life leaving only scars.
Diamond is a pretty tough and unlovable character, but I, at least, feel quite a bit of pity for him, too. He tries everything to make himself a bigger man than he is, to become significant, and nothing works. Not bull riding, not sleeping with tall women, not raping Londa for reminding him of his mother's dismissive taunts about his size. He was so completely and utterly rejected by the father he needed to be loved by at age 13, and his mother, however hard she tried to do her best by him, obviously hated him too, for what he cost her and what he reminded her of. He's never been able to love anyone since he was 13, and never really been loved, either.
BTW, it's not completely clear to me that his father actually wasn't Shirley Custer Felts. He tells Diamond that, and Diamond believes him, but do we know it's true?
Well... I know we should be putting this conversation off a bit, so I'll try to possess myself in patience until we're all ready.
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SpoilersJust wanted to comment on a quote (from CSI, I think, but I'm not absolutely sure-- bad nesters! Bad! ;D)
Well they sure are! That brilliant observation was another's.
He tries everything to make himself a bigger man than he is, to become significant, and nothing works.
Good way to put it.
BTW, it's not completely clear to me that his father actually wasn't Shirley Custer Felts. He tells Diamond that, and Diamond believes him, but do we know it's true?
No! We really don't. Do we even know if Shirley did or did not believe it? I think Shirley C. believed it; it is very consonant with a radical change in Shiley's feelings towerd D. and Ma (whatever her name was). But, what if Shirley was not nearly as crazy about Diamond as D. thinks. Maybe the big fight w/ Ma was about something else entirely but something big, and leaviing the whole lot of them behind was fine by him; maybe he says such a mean thing to Diamond just because his marriage has just broken up and he's mad enough to whip babies. Maybe Ma hates Diamond because he's Shirley's and the reason she had to marry Shirley, whom she wasn't that crazy about. And then she had an affair for years until Shirley heard it thru the grapevine and stormed off into the sunset. Or, or, or... I guess all we know is that D's Ma always hated him, and he got something deep out of Dad while he was still his Dad, before Dad slapped him in the face and disappeared.
I know we should be putting this conversation off a bit, so I'll try to possess myself in patience until we're all ready.
Should, shmould. Let anarachy reign.
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Since we don't seem to have any particular structure to this dialogue, I guess I'll just make random comments. BTW having mega computer probs -- called tech -- waiting for callback.
First off, I didn't read anyones postings for the simple reason that I didn't want to inadvertanly pick up someone else's thoughts/commentary/interpretations. So, if I do seem to mirror y'alls' thoughts it is purely accidental.
My feelings about Diamond were very mixed. IMO he is a very sympathetic character. His mother was a royal bitch IMO, she degraded him at every turn when he was still living at home even before he told her he wanted to be a bull rider. The remark she made when she caught him naked, "Well, at least you didn't get short-changed that way did you!" Called him Shorty; monitored his diet even after he was grown. She berates him by telling hiim how hard she worked to "bring you boys up in town, get you out of the mud..." She managed a good tourist store -- not like she was slinging hash in greasy spoon!
She tells him he was grief from day one -- not surprising he wanted to leave home although "he felt the dark lightening in his gut, a feeling of blazing real existence." Even Leecil says, " I don't got that thing you got, the style, the fuck-it-all-I-love-it-thing." If his mother had been a little more receptive to him, whether or not she liked his choice of rodeoing, she might have seen this need - this driving force to ride the bulls. Granted she thought she was doing right because she wanted him to go to college there are some things a parent cannot control. I could not have degraded my son like that, although I didn't agree with everything he did. \
Even when he returns home to recover from his injuries, she is on his back about the good; the remark about the pie. When she takes him to see the broken; pathetic Hondo it only increases his anger toward her. She should have done this when he was beginning to think Rodeo -- not now. When he asks her "what have I cost you" she says "Everything. You hard little man -- everything." Some mother --- what did he cost her? She would have worked regardless -- still had another son to bring -- god forbid she treats him badly if he dosn't do what she wants.
I am going to post this now, having computer probs - called tech -- waiting. will continue part 2 anon.
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Dal, are you our leader?
Or, to put it another way, should we declare a date to begin this story so Nikki can read everyone else's comments?
And possibly others might want to join this discussion. A lot of people on the board have read Close Range. I would like to post our discussion in The Daily Sheet for Wednesday (mods are considering whether we need another thread but that won't stop us)
Can we possibly pick an official "start" day, is Friday too late? (or is it ALREADY too late? no reins on this one)
Let me know what you think.
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Tellyouwhat, I've already started to post as you can see, should I wait to continue. Purposely did not read others' comments so it wouldn't influence mine. Comments?
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Hi Nikki -
sorry to ask you to hold that thought (your second post!) I sent you a pm -- copy to Dal and michaelflanagan.
And I'm not the leader, interested to know what others think!
Dal pm'd me that he's okay waiting just a bit, til I announce the discussion in 8/23 Daily Sheet (tomorrow).
One thing we don't want to do is constantly have to announce "spoilers"-- it looks like that concept is officially in the dust already.
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I'm all for Friday, myself, especially if we can get the word out on the Daily Sheet. Starting this up at the beginning of the weekend has pros and cons, no doubt, but it certainly would give me more time to read others posts and respond, despite being out doing other things for at least part of each weekend day.
As for structure-- well, I've got some proposed discussion questions.
1) Kaylee, Diamond's mama, and Diamond have a poisoned relationship at least since his father (or maybe stepfather) left. What is it about Diamond that made his mother reject him? Since the story is completely from Diamond's POV, and we know that he blames his mother for Shirley Custer Felts' departure and rejection of him, do you think that perhaps his mother was less hateful than he made her out to be, at least until his anger and rejection of her wore her down completely? Or do you think there was any degree of love and closeness between them prior to his father's departure?
2) Do you believe that Diamond is right in thinking Felts is not his father? If you do, do you believe that Felts only found out when Diamond was 13? Or did something else percipitate his leaving, and he told Diamond about his being a bastard then because he was angry at all the ways in which Kaylee had done him wrong? And what about Pearl?
3) Diamond and Pearl-- what do you make of those names? What about the cowboys at Saddle Rock: Sweets Musgrove, Nachtigal, Ike Soot, Jim Jack Jett, the singer Clint Black and "that Indian sumbitch, Black Vest". Lots of references to night and darkness there, and it's where Diamond loses his lucky bandanna, the one with the stars on it. Why do you think Annie names the bull rider going up after Diamond is injured Dunny Scotus, which obviously refers to Duns Scotus, a medieval theologist most famous for his defense of the Immaculate Conception of Mary, who, he argued, was conceived without original sin through the merits of her Son's crucifixion? The ICM is a basis for the worship of Mary, the Mother. What about Tee Dove?
4) What is the meaning of Tee Dove's comment to Diamond: "It's a bone game." Later, Tee Dove comes out of the shower after Diamond has been injured and says, "Ain't it a bone game, bro." We know, because Annie tells us, that although Diamond thought he meant injuries, he didn't.
5) There are a lot of references to what and who a real cowboy is. What's your understanding of what a real cowboy is?
6) What does the ending mean? What do you think is/are the theme(s) of the story?
I have my own thoughts about the answers to all of these, but I'd really like to know what everyone else thinks.
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Jenny for discussion leader! Yay! Nays speak up or forever hold your peace! If she want it, that is. Duns Scotus indeed. I thought this Dunny Scotus was a dunce for being a bull rider!
3) Diamond and Pearl-- what do you make of those names? What about the cowboys at Saddle Rock: Sweets Musgrove, Nachtigal, Ike Soot, Jim Jack Jett, the singer Clint Black and "that Indian sumbitch, Black Vest". Lots of references to night and darkness there, and it's where Diamond loses his lucky bandanna, the one with the stars on it. Why do you think Annie names the bull rider going up after Diamond is injured Dunny Scotus, which obviously refers to Duns Scotus, a medieval theologist most famous for his defense of the Immaculate Conception of Mary, who, he argued, was conceived without original sin through the merits of her Son's crucifixion? The ICM is a basis for the worship of Mary, the Mother. What about Tee Dove?
Jenny, you scare me. Are you sure you're not a refugee from "Symbols and Imagery"?
[just kiddin' -- good questions]
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Oh gosh, Dal, I hope not! Don't want to scare anybody. :-[ As far as being discussion leader goes, I'm not sure I have any idea how to do that. I'm embarrassed to say this, but I've never been in a book group before. And the Lord knows I don't think I've got any better answers than anyone else to those questions; thy're just things I've been thinking about and I've been wondering what others think. For that matter, I'm sure there are lots of other interesting questions and observations to be made. I just figured I'd try to start the ball rolling.
And, ummm.... I've never posted on the Symbolism and imagery thread. Clearly, she uses lots of symbolism, but there's plenty to chew on in Annie's stories without spending most of our time brooding about hidden meanings. It can be fun, though. ;D
So, Friday then?
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Hi Jenny,
Does this mean we start discussing your questions Friday -- or today -- I'm confussed
Nikki
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Does this mean we start discussing your questions Friday -- or today -- I'm confussed
Friday sounds good. Even Monday? I have been waiting for this, and had thought until recently that it was a lost cause; my gun just went off prematurely yesterday. Apologies, everone!
Oh gosh, Dal, I hope not! Don't want to scare anybody. :-[ As far as being discussion leader goes, I'm not sure I have any idea how to do that. I'm embarrassed to say this, but I've never been in a book group before. And the Lord knows I don't think I've got any better answers than anyone else to those questions; thy're just things I've been thinking about and I've been wondering what others think. For that matter, I'm sure there are lots of other interesting questions and observations to be made. I just figured I'd try to start the ball rolling.
So, Friday then?
You di'n't scare anybody. I will stop joshing people over the ether. If I can.
I don't think you need to have all the answers, or all the questiions for that matter, to be a group leader (although Michael does of course). IMO you need a few good questions to start the ball rolling, and some followups when things start getting boring. You have some great questions. Re your inexperience: we'll all be only too happy to correct you, every time you make even a tiny mistake! No, but seriously, talk to Michael; he can tell you what's invoved, and likely reassure you
Clearly, she uses lots of symbolism, but there's plenty to chew on in Annie's stories without spending most of our time brooding about hidden meanings. It can be fun, though. ;D
It's clear from your other questions that you don't overemphasize the symbolic. And, I like your Group #3 Questions! I'll shut up now.
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Hi Again,
That last post from Dal still didn't answer my question -- do we start answering ur questions now or wait until Friday -- sorry but still confused.
Thanks,
Nikki
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^^^^
Let's say Friday. no earlier than that, anyway. If anybody finds a reason to wait beyond that, fine. E.G. a new thread for this, or something. But no earlier than Friday. If it's going to be later than Friday, that fact will be posted. In fact, either way will be posted, for clarity's sake..
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Gee thanks Dal, repetition is the soul of wit: Friday no earlier, but can be later, but no
earlier, either way it will be posted. Got that right? But what's the date August but not Sept?
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Daily Sheet is going to say Friday ::)
You can be the first, Nikki, at 12:01 a.m. (mountain time ha ha)
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Hi all,
I've been reading the discussion of the book discussion of 'Close Range' with interest, and have been talking about it with other moderators. Whether this happens in a separate thread or in the Annie Proulx thread it will be in the book section and, of course, I am one of the co-moderators for these threads. I have not read 'Close Range' and sadly don't currently have time to do that (as in running the book club it is necessary for me to be reading other critical works associated with Larry McMurtry's book), but that shouldn't stop anyone here from discussing the book. If you could hold off for a day before writing in the Daily Sheet and scheduling your discussion would make me a very happy moderator as I should then be to tell you for certain where this will happen.
As to format, since 'Close Range' is a series of stories (ten if you don't include 'Brokeback Mountain') it would probably work best for you if you decided how many of these stories you want to discuss at a time [For example, do you want to do 2 stories a week for 5 weeks? 3 stories for the first 2 weeks and 4 for the last week?]. In organizing the book club discussions I try to give people less than 100 pages to read in a week - so perhaps that will be of some help in deciding?
You will probably want to decide who will be your group leader at this point too. I see that you have already been talking about this as well. And that person should be willing and able to devote time to coming up with discussion questions on the stories. Regarding questions on the stories - well, you can pretty much cover the gamut - characters, character development, themes, related themes, historic notes, setting, etc. From my own viewpoint it helps if you can post possible discussion points without being too attached to people agreeing with your own viewpoint - the point, after all, is to discuss the work, and people will have all sorts of opinions about it - and no one is necessarily right or wrong. As the co-moderator for the thread I'll be watching to make sure we all are working together and there is no trauma or strife involved (but, as I've told others, this is rarely a problem here - we all seem to be rational adults about our opinions). Again, from my own viewpoint I kind of like to post the questions and then get out of the way and let the discussion go on - after all the book club is there to discuss the book - not for me to expound on my own opinions. But as this group will be lead by one of the members you will probably want someone who has both the time and the energy to both post the questions and then participate with the discussion (to keep it moving).
Is this the kind of guidance you are looking for or do you want more specific suggestions?
So, again, if we can wait a day or so before publicizing I should be able to get back to you concerning where this will take place. I'm quite happy that you're all interested in doing this.
Michael
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Daily Sheet is going to say Friday ::)
You can be the first, Nikki, at 12:01 a.m. (mountain time ha ha)
(whines) But Elleeeeeeeeeeen I live in Easteeeeeeeeeeern Time!!!
Ha ha
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As to format, since 'Close Range' is a series of stories (ten if you don't include 'Brokeback Mountain') it would probably work best for you if you decided how many of these stories you want to discuss at a time [For example, do you want to do 2 stories a week for 5 weeks? 3 stories for the first 2 weeks and 4 for the last week?]. In organizing the book club discussions I try to give people less than 100 pages to read in a week - so perhaps that will be of some help in deciding?
OMG guys, I vote for one at a time! One of Annie's stories gives me plenty to chew on.
I guess I think we could just decide which one to do when we're finished with The Mud Below.
Of course we can reference other stories-- can we do that without spoilers? I guess I'm not all that worried about it, but others may be.
(Note to Nikki-- I'm in Central time but we all march to Daaaave's TIIIIME ZOOOOONE)(spooky robot voice)
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As to format, since 'Close Range' is a series of stories (ten if you don't include 'Brokeback Mountain') it would probably work best for you if you decided how many of these stories you want to discuss at a time [For example, do you want to do 2 stories a week for 5 weeks? 3 stories for the first 2 weeks and 4 for the last week?]. In organizing the book club discussions I try to give people less than 100 pages to read in a week - so perhaps that will be of some help in deciding?
OMG guys, I vote for one at a time! One of Annie's stories gives me plenty to chew on.
I guess I think we could just decide which one to do when we're finished with The Mud Below.
Of course we can reference other stories-- can we do that without spoilers? I guess I'm not all that worried about it, but others may be.
(Note to Nikki-- I'm in Central time but we all march to Daaaave's TIIIIME ZOOOOONE)(spooky robot voice)
One at a time for me too -- I still have the Last Picture Show to handle.
Yes, we can ref other stories w/o spoilers.
Good idea Ellen, after we finish a story let's vote on the next.
I march to a different drummer ha ha
Nikki
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Ooooeee! I don't check this thread for a couple of days and it goes absolutely crazy! In my usual anal-compulsive way, after BBM came out, I read all of Annie Proulx. Work is absolutely crazy right now and I don't know how much time I will have to participate. But I love the fact that you're going forward with this and will try to chime in once in awhile. I've loved reading your thoughts so far!
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Definitely one story at a time. I don't think I could handle two, frankly.
As far as the discussion leader thing goes: I bet at least one or two other folks have read more of Annie's short stories than I have-- Close Range is the only collection I've gotten through. So if people want to go to stories in other books, I'm probably not going to be much help unless I can take some time away to read them. I'm not sure what folks mean by referencing the other stories without spoilers-- wouldn't we have to "spoil" them to some extent to reference them at all? If what you mean is don't spoil the endings, I can see how to avoid that. I'm happy to come up with questions, but I do want to be able to give my own opinions and I hope other people will come up with questions I wouldn't have thought of. I'm certainly planning on being here and participating, but obviously things do come up, and I can't guarantee anyone that I'll be right there to jump in as soon as conversation shows any sign of flagging. And surely there's some point at which we don't have much more to say and will bring things to an end. I'm not sure whether we'll just know, or whether we should put some kind of time limit on it, or what.
If all of that sounds okay to people, I guess you could designate me as discussion leader. But maybe we could pass that pipe around and take turns when we change stories?
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I guess I think we could just decide which one to do when we're finished with The Mud Below.
Of course we can reference other stories-- can we do that without spoilers? I guess I'm not all that worried about it, but others may be.
One at a time for me too -- I still have the Last Picture Show to handle.
Yes, we can ref other stories w/o spoilers.
Good idea Ellen, after we finish a story let's vote on the next.
Sounds good. Re: spoilers: I've been hyper-careful about that since I mentioned something from one of her novels on a general-interest thread, much to everyone's dismay. I guess it's OK here though, as long as we stick to CR and Postcards? [n.b. got the attributions on the quotes messed up -- oops]
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If all of that sounds okay to people, I guess you could designate me as discussion leader. But maybe we could pass that pipe around and take turns when we change stories?
Sounds good to me. Here's a pipe.
(https://ultimatebrokebackforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi46.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Ff104%2FvcdrtPH%2F___WAM_114.jpg&hash=bafa6cbb5002297f446dadd0c1ddacb4fc8a5481)
Olympic Peninsula -- Peace Pipe
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Okay! There is now a thread for the Close Range Book Discussion Group. I've copied all the pertinent messages to the thread. It lives here:
http://davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=12416.0
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^^^^^^^^
That's a lot a work michaelSF. Thanks!
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^^^^^^^^
That's a lot a work michaelSF. Thanks!
You bet. I thought it would be a good idea and stimulate the conversation to have its own 'place' on the forum. And we may as well give A.P. a birthday present, right?
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Okay! There is now a thread for the Close Range Book Discussion Group. I've copied all the pertinent messages to the thread. It lives here:
http://davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=12416.0
Really kind and committed of you, Michael. I was getting discouraged at the lack of responses for a while there. Thanks!
CSI
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Okay! There is now a thread for the Close Range Book Discussion Group. I've copied all the pertinent messages to the thread. It lives here:
http://davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=12416.0
Really kind and committed of you, Michael. I was getting discouraged at the lack of responses for a while there. Thanks!
CSI
Sorry for the discouragement CSI...I was chatting away fast and furious behind the scenes.
mf
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Annie Proulx will be speaking aon Sept 14th at Davidson College in Davidson NC:
http://www.charlotte.com/mld/charlotte/entertainment/books/15384759.htm
Davidson College
The liberal arts college has a strong series of author events each year. They're free, but tickets are sometimes required. Below is a partial list of events. 704-894-2140; www.davidson.edu.SEPT. 14 -- Novelist Annie Proulx; 8 p.m.; Duke Family Performance Hall.
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Okay...this is marginally close to going off topic...but perhaps it's a vision of what Ennis was reading in that trailer:
http://davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=208.msg454626#msg454626
;)
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I've just read that John Updike is the newest recipient of the Rea Award.
I reading some tributes to the man who established the award, I found these words,written of Gina Berriault, the 1997 winner. I share them here for the obvious reason...
“Her stories astonish – not only in their range of character and incident, but in their worldliness, their swift and surprising turns, their penetration into palpable love and grief and hope. Her sentences are excitingly, startlingly juxtaposed; and though her language is plain, the complexity of her knowing leads one into mysteries deeper than tears. To discover Berriault is to voyage into uncharted amazements.”
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I've just read that John Updike is the newest recipient of the Rea Award.
I reading some tributes to the man who established the award, I found these words,written of Gina Berriault, the 1997 winner. I share them here for the obvious reason...
“Her stories astonish – not only in their range of character and incident, but in their worldliness, their swift and surprising turns, their penetration into palpable love and grief and hope. Her sentences are excitingly, startlingly juxtaposed; and though her language is plain, the complexity of her knowing leads one into mysteries deeper than tears. To discover Berriault is to voyage into uncharted amazements.”
Great quote, All4one. It reminds me of something I've said in conversations with people about Close Range, but don't think I've posted on the board before. Although I think the rest of the stories in Close Range are extremely well crafted, and rank right up there with the best of American fiction, for me, as a reader, BBM stands head and shoulders above the rest of the stories in the collection, and is the only one that merits the kind of praise in your quote. I've tried analyzing it, but haven't been able to put my finger on it yet. I just know that's how I felt the first time I read Close Range (and I started from the beginning, not knowing about BBM). It was like stumbling upon the Hope Diamond in a tray of semi-precious stones.
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...
It reminds me of something I've said in conversations with people about Close Range, but don't think I've posted on the board before. Although I think the rest of the stories in Close Range are extremely well crafted, and rank right up there with the best of American fiction, for me, as a reader, BBM stands head and shoulders above the rest of the stories in the collection, and is the only one that merits the kind of praise in your quote. I've tried analyzing it, but haven't been able to put my finger on it yet. I just know that's how I felt the first time I read Close Range (and I started from the beginning, not knowing about BBM). It was like stumbling upon the Hope Diamond in a tray of semi-precious stones.
And it's interesting that Proulx herself apparently recognizes it as something special. Here and there, she's mentioned how it took her an unusually long time to write, how she spents some tears on it, and how Ennis and Jack were the only characters she'd ever fallen in love with. It's almost as though she drew on some part of herself she'd never tapped before.
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And it's interesting that Proulx herself apparently recognizes it as something special. Here and there, she's mentioned how it took her an unusually long time to write, how she spents some tears on it, and how Ennis and Jack were the only characters she'd ever fallen in love with. It's almost as though she drew on some part of herself she'd never tapped before.
Well what's interesting to me is that there are echoes of Jack and Ennis in some of her earlier characters. Quoyle in the shipping news is the kind of fellow who is pursuing his love and it doesn't work (at least the first doesn't) much like Jack - and there are elements of the 'lovable loser' aspects of Jack's character in both Quoyle and Dub Blood from 'Postcards'. And Loyal Blood has a very Ennis road in 'Postcards' - he pays for the decisions he makes. So it's almost as if there are seeds of the Jack and Ennis characters in earlier books by Annie.
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In an interview in the "Bookslut"in 2005, Annie had this to say about BBM: ...Actually that story was to be one of three or four stories about offbeat and difficult love situations, but I never wrote any of the others. I just wrote that one....I had to get away from it. It just got too intense and too much on my mind...And also because I conceived of that particular story as one of a set of stories. As it is right now, it stands out rather like a sore thumb in comparison to the rest of the work, so I think I have to do those other stories.
How great will that be if Annie does do those other stories? And what kind of "offbeat and difficult love situations" does she have in mind I wonder?
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In an interview in the "Bookslut"in 2005, Annie had this to say about BBM: ...Actually that story was to be one of three or four stories about offbeat and difficult love situations, but I never wrote any of the others. I just wrote that one....I had to get away from it. It just got too intense and too much on my mind...And also because I conceived of that particular story as one of a set of stories. As it is right now, it stands out rather like a sore thumb in comparison to the rest of the work, so I think I have to do those other stories.
How great will that be if Annie does do those other stories? And what kind of "offbeat and difficult love situations" does she have in mind I wonder?
I remember that quote of Annie's and I wonder if she's decided to not pursue the other stories. Sometimes you conceive of something but then something else happens (BBM in this case) and it changes everything. I actually hope the others aren't written. It feels to me that BBM was the one that was meant to shine (and be written), and her original conception of creating a set of stories was just the impetus that was need to create her masterpiece in BBM.
If these other stories were written, BBM would remain the stand out because it is so extraordinary. In other words, her original inspiration led her to BBM and other stories of difficult love situations would not prevent BBM from standing head and shoulders above the crowd. It's too late for that. I'll read anything she writes, though :D
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In an interview in the "Bookslut"in 2005, Annie had this to say about BBM: ...Actually that story was to be one of three or four stories about offbeat and difficult love situations, but I never wrote any of the others. I just wrote that one....I had to get away from it. It just got too intense and too much on my mind...And also because I conceived of that particular story as one of a set of stories. As it is right now, it stands out rather like a sore thumb in comparison to the rest of the work, so I think I have to do those other stories.
How great will that be if Annie does do those other stories? And what kind of "offbeat and difficult love situations" does she have in mind I wonder?
I remember that quote of Annie's and I wonder if she's decided to not pursue the other stories. Sometimes you conceive of something but then something else happens (BBM in this case) and it changes everything. I actually hope the others aren't written. It feels to me that BBM was the one that was meant to shine (and be written), and her original conception of creating a set of stories was just the impetus that was need to create her masterpiece in BBM.
If these other stories were written, BBM would remain the stand out because it is so extraordinary. In other words, her original inspiration led her to BBM and other stories of difficult love situations would not prevent BBM from standing head and shoulders above the crowd. It's too late for that. I'll read anything she writes, though :D
I agree Lauren -- wouldn't u just die to know though?
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I've just read that John Updike is the newest recipient of the Rea Award.
I reading some tributes to the man who established the award, I found these words,written of Gina Berriault, the 1997 winner. I share them here for the obvious reason...
“Her stories astonish – not only in their range of character and incident, but in their worldliness, their swift and surprising turns, their penetration into palpable love and grief and hope. Her sentences are excitingly, startlingly juxtaposed; and though her language is plain, the complexity of her knowing leads one into mysteries deeper than tears. To discover Berriault is to voyage into uncharted amazements.”
Great quote, All4one. It reminds me of something I've said in conversations with people about Close Range, but don't think I've posted on the board before. Although I think the rest of the stories in Close Range are extremely well crafted, and rank right up there with the best of American fiction, for me, as a reader, BBM stands head and shoulders above the rest of the stories in the collection, and is the only one that merits the kind of praise in your quote. I've tried analyzing it, but haven't been able to put my finger on it yet. I just know that's how I felt the first time I read Close Range (and I started from the beginning, not knowing about BBM). It was like stumbling upon the Hope Diamond in a tray of semi-precious stones.
I will always wonder if I would have experienced BBM as you did - "the Hope Diamond in a tray of semi-precious stones" - had I read Close Range from the beginning, not "knowing ". I think I would have. It may not be fair to the writer when this happens, but I'm not going to read the other stories for a while.
Often, I think of her description of the genesis of the story of Ennis and Jack, the moments she watched that older man who was himself looking at the younger men playing pool in a bar. That guy will never know what he started! ( And his own story will never be told, truly. Let be, let be.)
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An article on Proux from Sept. 15, 2006- (sorry if it has already been posted here)
http://www.charlotte.com/mld/observer/news/local/15523440.htm
Interesting about the scenes she didn't like. I wonder what they were. I don't think she's mentioned this before, but I could be wrong. I know she preferred that the motel scene be just as it is in the book and told Lee that but she's said since that she understood why Lee split that scene into two sequences.
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Often, I think of her description of the genesis of the story of Ennis and Jack, the moments she watched that older man who was himself looking at the younger men playing pool in a bar. That guy will never know what he started! ( And his own story will never be told, truly. Let be, let be.)
Then again, maybe it actually was. The ability of Annie Proulx to create a story based on this observation is a testament to her ability as a writer, that and the fact that she hit this angle of the gay experience dead on, in my "educated" opinion.
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Interesting about the scenes she didn't like. I wonder what they were. I don't think she's mentioned this before, but I could be wrong. I know she preferred that the motel scene be just as it is in the book and told Lee that but she's said since that she understood why Lee split that scene into two sequences.
Yes Lauren, I read that she wrote Ang a long letter begging him to keep the motel scene in the movie. She later said she approved of the way he did it. IMO the motel scene was pivotal to how Ennis felt about Jack -- he was more open about his feelings -- not as repressed as in the movie -- I would have preferred it be kept in also. But then again, I think I'm one of the few that didn't like the movie ending -- Annie's ending was more realistic even though it was a stab in the heart.
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Yes Lauren, I read that she wrote Ang a long letter begging him to keep the motel scene in the movie. She later said she approved of the way he did it. IMO the motel scene was pivotal to how Ennis felt about Jack -- he was more open about his feelings -- not as repressed as in the movie -- I would have preferred it be kept in also. But then again, I think I'm one of the few that didn't like the movie ending -- Annie's ending was more realistic even though it was a stab in the heart.
I loved that 'you just shot down my airplane out of the sky' line in the book. I also missed the 'It don't happen in Wyomin'' In my perfect world those would have both made it into the movie.
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Yes Lauren, I read that she wrote Ang a long letter begging him to keep the motel scene in the movie. She later said she approved of the way he did it. IMO the motel scene was pivotal to how Ennis felt about Jack -- he was more open about his feelings -- not as repressed as in the movie -- I would have preferred it be kept in also. But then again, I think I'm one of the few that didn't like the movie ending -- Annie's ending was more realistic even though it was a stab in the heart.
I loved that 'you just shot down my airplane out of the sky' line in the book. I also missed the 'It don't happen in Wyomin'' In my perfect world those would have both made it into the movie.
Oh yes Michael! Also the line "..I musta wrang it out a hundred times thinkin' about you..." I still can't understand why Ang cut that whole thing out -- McMurtry and Ossana could have written the script with a few deletions, but that scene leaves no doubt as to how Ennis feels about Jack. I guess we'll never know -- it still bugs me though!
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Everything I've ever read has indicated that Ang Lee DID shoot the entire motel scene and edited it into what we see today so as to give the films emotional heart to the final meeting....like every movie ever made, BBM has tons of unused footage. Now, what I expect will happen is that--since this IS the Directors Cut--eventually there will be a disc relkeased which has the unused footage. Like that clip which made it online showing Heath Ledger burying his face in the shirts crying his eyes out.
I love this film as it is, BUT will be first online to buy that collector's cd. I would love to see AP's motel scene, love to see and hear JT say that line about them drinking together.
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Everything I've ever read has indicated that Ang Lee DID shoot the entire motel scene and edited it into what we see today so as to give the films emotional heart to the final meeting....like every movie ever made, BBM has tons of unused footage. Now, what I expect will happen is that--since this IS the Directors Cut--eventually there will be a disc relkeased which has the unused footage. Like that clip which made it online showing Heath Ledger burying his face in the shirts crying his eyes out.
I love this film as it is, BUT will be first online to buy that collector's cd. I would love to see AP's motel scene, love to see and hear JT say that line about them drinking together.
Didn't know Ang shot the motel scene in its entireity -- do know that Annie strongly urged him to keep it in whole -- IMO he could have done both this and last scene and still retained what he wanted. The motel scene in the book shows a more loving Ennis -- more open to Jack -- not as repressed. Well, I will be second in line if and when the director's cut comes out -- what is on the DVD now doesn't answer my questions!
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Interesting about the scenes she didn't like. I wonder what they were. I don't think she's mentioned this before, but I could be wrong. I know she preferred that the motel scene be just as it is in the book and told Lee that but she's said since that she understood why Lee split that scene into two sequences.
Yes Lauren, I read that she wrote Ang a long letter begging him to keep the motel scene in the movie. She later said she approved of the way he did it. IMO the motel scene was pivotal to how Ennis felt about Jack -- he was more open about his feelings -- not as repressed as in the movie -- I would have preferred it be kept in also. But then again, I think I'm one of the few that didn't like the movie ending -- Annie's ending was more realistic even though it was a stab in the heart.
I know what you mean about the motel scene. I know this has been discussed here quite a bit and I understand why Lee wanted to split the scene, which works for me. But I would have liked to hear Ennis express his feelings for Jack as he does in the book. Lee wanted to show us Ennis' feelings instead, I think. But I've wondered: would it have worked just as well if Ennis says what he says in the book. If Lee felt that by having Ennis express his feelings, there would be no doubt that Jack knows how he feels and you wouldn't have the emotional tension, that's probably true, though it works in the book for me. What does work, though, in the film is that Jack sees through what Ennis isn't saying, and knows how much Ennis loves him IMO.
And yes, I would be curious about Annie's other stories should she choose to write them. I've thought they might be along the lines of other stories in "Close Range" with similar characters. I have no idea what kind of stories these would be, but I'm sure I'd be surprised.
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Everything I've ever read has indicated that Ang Lee DID shoot the entire motel scene and edited it into what we see today so as to give the films emotional heart to the final meeting....like every movie ever made, BBM has tons of unused footage. Now, what I expect will happen is that--since this IS the Directors Cut--eventually there will be a disc relkeased which has the unused footage. Like that clip which made it online showing Heath Ledger burying his face in the shirts crying his eyes out.
I love this film as it is, BUT will be first online to buy that collector's cd. I would love to see AP's motel scene, love to see and hear JT say that line about them drinking together.
Didn't know Ang shot the motel scene in its entireity -- do know that Annie strongly urged him to keep it in whole -- IMO he could have done both this and last scene and still retained what he wanted. The motel scene in the book shows a more loving Ennis -- more open to Jack -- not as repressed. Well, I will be second in line if and when the director's cut comes out -- what is on the DVD now doesn't answer my questions!
Now that I've caught up and read your post, I agree. I think perhaps he could have left no doubt how Ennis feels about Jack and still retain what he wanted in the end. I also wish (as others have said repeatedly) that there was more affection between them later in the film --- I really missed that the first time I saw the film, though I think Lee did this so the dozy hug would have the impact that it does, so you would know that this is how much they loved one another. (I'm probably getting a bit beyond the Annie Proux topic here and on to some other topic thread, so apologies).
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Interesting about the scenes she didn't like. I wonder what they were. I don't think she's mentioned this before, but I could be wrong. I know she preferred that the motel scene be just as it is in the book and told Lee that but she's said since that she understood why Lee split that scene into two sequences.
Yes Lauren, I read that she wrote Ang a long letter begging him to keep the motel scene in the movie. She later said she approved of the way he did it. IMO the motel scene was pivotal to how Ennis felt about Jack -- he was more open about his feelings -- not as repressed as in the movie -- I would have preferred it be kept in also. But then again, I think I'm one of the few that didn't like the movie ending -- Annie's ending was more realistic even though it was a stab in the heart.
I know what you mean about the motel scene. I know this has been discussed here quite a bit and I understand why Lee wanted to split the scene, which works for me. But I would have liked to hear Ennis express his feelings for Jack as he does in the book. Lee wanted to show us Ennis' feelings instead, I think. But I've wondered: would it have worked just as well if Ennis says what he says in the book. If Lee felt that by having Ennis express his feelings, there would be no doubt that Jack knows how he feels and you wouldn't have the emotional tension, that's probably true, though it works in the book for me. What does work, though, in the film is that Jack sees through what Ennis isn't saying, and knows how much Ennis loves him IMO.
Yes, I know why Ang wanted to split the scene, but I still think he could have retained the emotional tension in the last scene even though the motel scene had shown Ennis' feelings more directly. Oh well, sigh, Ang didn't ask me, but I sure would like to know his thoughts. Aftrer all, it didn't hurt the book by having both scenes described -- some people I know who just saw movie not read book, felt confused about Ennis' feelings -- he was so repressed -- I always recommend the book to clear up any question about Ennis' feelings. IMO of course with all homage to Ang!
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Oh one more thing and to me one of the most powerful passages was the prologue to the the story -- about Ennis' dream ...he was suffused with a sense of pleasure because Jack Twist was in his dream... Dont think they could have used a voice over, but it was powerful to me and heart rending, especially this last: ...he would wake sometimes in grief, sometimes with the old sense of joy and release; the pillow sometimes wet, sometimes the sheets. Another reason I always recommend the book to those who doubted Ennis' love.
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Often, I think of her description of the genesis of the story of Ennis and Jack, the moments she watched that older man who was himself looking at the younger men playing pool in a bar. That guy will never know what he started! ( And his own story will never be told, truly. Let be, let be.)
Then again, maybe it actually was. The ability of Annie Proulx to create a story based on this observation is a testament to her ability as a writer, that and the fact that she hit this angle of the gay experience dead on, in my "educated" opinion.
LSky94, you are right; the story we all know so well may be closer to his truth than we could imagine. Just as Annie watched the man, I wish I could have been in that bar that evening, watching the woman who watched the man.
You probably know that Victor Hugo who wrote Les Miserables said his great story was born in a moment of eye contact he had with a prisoner dressed in ragged clothes, in police custody.
Writers are different. :)
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All4one,
Yep Hugo's Les Mis is another great example of another great writer. The power of the human mind is indeed awesome.
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Oh one more thing and to me one of the most powerful passages was the prologue to the the story -- about Ennis' dream ...he was suffused with a sense of pleasure because Jack Twist was in his dream... Dont think they could have used a voice over, but it was powerful to me and heart rending, especially this last: ...he would wake sometimes in grief, sometimes with the old sense of joy and release; the pillow sometimes wet, sometimes the sheets. Another reason I always recommend the book to those who doubted Ennis' love.
It also answers those who doubt the physicality of that love. However, some people take the position that the story told by the film should be understood/interpreted without reference to the story as Proulx wrote it. Or even without reference to Proulx's statements about her story.
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However, some people take the position that the story told by the film should be understood/interpreted without reference to the story as Proulx wrote it. Or even without reference to Proulx's statements about her story.
Well, I guess we can try to judge the movie separately from the book, but I think when we are talking about two great works of art that tell the same story, comparison is inevitable. The film has been judged by official film standards -- the industry, etc (notwithstanding the awards mixup) -- the story has been judged in literature. Try and stop us from comparing them -- ain't no reins! Especially since we know something about the decision process in transferring the story to the movie. It's hard not to second-guess Ang (but, lucky for us, futile)
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... Try and stop us from comparing them -- ain't no reins! Especially since we know something about the decision process in transferring the story to the movie. It's hard not to second-guess Ang (but, lucky for us, futile)
I'm with you on that. I do think most of the changes in the film - the fleshing-out of wives and minor characters - are defensible. One I much regret was Ang Lee's decision to add that element of optimism to the ending. And I wasn't crazy about Thanksgiving dinner at the Twists; it was fun to watch at the time, but in retrospect it seems a slightly obtrusive effort to "rehabilitate" Jack. OTOH, pairing it with the other Thanksgiving scene was neat.
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... Try and stop us from comparing them -- ain't no reins! Especially since we know something about the decision process in transferring the story to the movie. It's hard not to second-guess Ang (but, lucky for us, futile)
I'm with you on that. I do think most of the changes in the film - the fleshing-out of wives and minor characters - are defensible. One I much regret was Ang Lee's decision to add that element of optimism to the ending. And I wasn't crazy about Thanksgiving dinner at the Twists; it was fun to watch at the time, but in retrospect it seems a slightly obtrusive effort to "rehabilitate" Jack. OTOH, pairing it with the other Thanksgiving scene was neat.
The fleshing out of the wives showed how two families were affected by J&E's love, and I think this was important to show that J&E were not the only ones ultimately hurt by "rural homophobia."
Castro, one of my biggest disappointments was the ending -- I called it a Hollywood ending. Annie's ending was much more powerful to me -- it showed how bleak Ennis' life would be -- yet the book describes how his dream of Jack stoked the day, etc.. beautiful -- that really sings for me.
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Castro, one of my biggest disappointments was the ending -- I called it a Hollywood ending. Annie's ending was much more powerful to me -- it showed how bleak Ennis' life would be -- yet the book describes how his dream of Jack stoked the day, etc.. beautiful -- that really sings for me.
I'm confused, Nikki. When you refer to Annie's ending, are you talking about the prologue?
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When you refer to Annie's ending, are you talking about the prologue?
The short story is a mess, isn't it!? Starts out when it's all over, gradual fade to black, then 30 pages of narration berore you understand what the hell the prologue was all about!
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Castro, one of my biggest disappointments was the ending -- I called it a Hollywood ending. Annie's ending was much more powerful to me -- it showed how bleak Ennis' life would be -- yet the book describes how his dream of Jack stoked the day, etc.. beautiful -- that really sings for me.
I'm confused, Nikki. When you refer to Annie's ending, are you talking about the prologue?
Sorry if I confused you WLAGuy -- actually the last 3 or 4 paragraphs in the book starting when he pinned the postcard up over the shirts and looked at the ensemble thru tears -- then "Around that time Jack began to appear in his dreams..." ends with "There was some open space....but if you can't fix it you've got to stand it."
See, I know how some people want the happy ending of Ennis going to the wedding, etc... they feel that he will find love, hope, whatever..., I prefer the way Annie left it -- yes it's bleak, but so powerful IMO. Problem is that the prologue and these last paragraphs would probably require a voice-over and maybe that would have weakened the scene, don't know. IMO the prologue and these paragraphs were so eloquent that I hated to see them left out. Anyway, do you see where I'm coming from?
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Annie Proulx's ending of the story isn't all that different from the film other than she provides the reader a small view of Ennis after the "I Swear" scene, though that insight is significant.
P.S. I think the film's ending does capture the bleakness of Annie's last few paragraphs. Even with Alma Jr.'s upcoming wedding inclusion in the film. For me, that provides deeper contrast between the happy life that is going on around Ennis, outside of his world of loss and memories inside his trailer, just he and the shirts. Quite bleak I think.
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Annie Proulx's ending of the story isn't all that different from the film other than she provides the reader a small view of Ennis after the "I Swear" scene, though that insight is significant.
There is no scene with the daughter and wedding plans. To me Ennis alone in his old trailer pinning up the postcard over the shirts on the outside of the closet, shows what his life will be like -- he's lost the love of his life -- we know he's been dreaming about Jack from the prologue -- perfection!!
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Sorry if I confused you WLAGuy -- actually the last 3 or 4 paragraphs in the book starting when he pinned the postcard up over the shirts and looked at the ensemble thru tears -- then "Around that time Jack began to appear in his dreams..." ends with "There was some open space....but if you can't fix it you've got to stand it."
See, I know how some people want the happy ending of Ennis going to the wedding, etc... they feel that he will find love, hope, whatever..., I prefer the way Annie left it -- yes it's bleak, but so powerful IMO. Problem is that the prologue and these last paragraphs would probably require a voice-over and maybe that would have weakened the scene, don't know. IMO the prologue and these paragraphs were so eloquent that I hated to see them left out. Anyway, do you see where I'm coming from?
Okay, I get it. Yes, I think including those lines in the movie would have substantially weakened it. I agree with you that those lines are some of the most powerful lines in the story (and among my favorites), but I can't see any way they could have managed to get them in there -- a voiceover out of nowhere would have confused the hell out of people, wondering who the narrator was who was leaping in at the last second out of nowhere, and having the words roll across the screen wouldn't have worked well either. I guess because I read the book first, I already had that image in my head of Ennis as an old man, alone in his little trailer, so I didn't see the bit about Alma's wedding as turning it into a happy ending.
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There is no scene with the daughter and wedding plans. To me Ennis alone in his old trailer pinning up the postcard over the shirts on the outside of the closet, shows what his life will be like -- he's lost the love of his life -- we know he's been dreaming about Jack from the prologue -- perfection!!
Yes, we know there is no such scene in Annie's story, but the film still ends with the I Swear scene, its the last we see of Ennis doing anything in both the story and the film. Annie's two paragraphs afterward in the story are telling us what is going on in Ennis' mind. So no, there really isn't that much of a difference in the ending scene.
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Sorry if I confused you WLAGuy -- actually the last 3 or 4 paragraphs in the book starting when he pinned the postcard up over the shirts and looked at the ensemble thru tears -- then "Around that time Jack began to appear in his dreams..." ends with "There was some open space....but if you can't fix it you've got to stand it."
See, I know how some people want the happy ending of Ennis going to the wedding, etc... they feel that he will find love, hope, whatever..., I prefer the way Annie left it -- yes it's bleak, but so powerful IMO. Problem is that the prologue and these last paragraphs would probably require a voice-over and maybe that would have weakened the scene, don't know. IMO the prologue and these paragraphs were so eloquent that I hated to see them left out. Anyway, do you see where I'm coming from?
Okay, I get it. Yes, I think including those lines in the movie would have substantially weakened it. I agree with you that those lines are some of the most powerful lines in the story (and among my favorites), but I can't see any way they could have managed to get them in there -- a voiceover out of nowhere would have confused the hell out of people, wondering who the narrator was who was leaping in at the last second out of nowhere, and having the words roll across the screen wouldn't have worked well either. I guess because I read the book first, I already had that image in my head of Ennis as an old man, alone in his little trailer, so I didn't see the bit about Alma's wedding as turning it into a happy ending.
That's been my problem with the voice over when I play Ang in my dreams! How would I do that if I want to keep those lines in -- voice over would have been intrusive, weakening, etc. I too read the book first, so my impression was "preexisting" I guess you could say. I still found the scene with the daughter intrusive to me. Funny how we can all still hash these scenes out 6 months later -- even Ang has moved on! I loved those lines in the prologue, I used them for my sig line -- they still give me chills!
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If he does not force his attention on it, it might stoke the day, rewarm that old, cold time on the mountain when they owned the world and nothing seemed wrong.
There are many sad, sad lines in the story, but that one is right up there with the saddest.
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If he does not force his attention on it, it might stoke the day, rewarm that old, cold time on the mountain when they owned the world and nothing seemed wrong.
There are many sad, sad lines in the story, but that one is right up there with the saddest.
Oh yes Dal, that's why I took it as part of my sig line -- it sends chills down my spine!
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In an interview in the "Bookslut"in 2005, Annie had this to say about BBM: ...Actually that story was to be one of three or four stories about offbeat and difficult love situations, but I never wrote any of the others. I just wrote that one....I had to get away from it. It just got too intense and too much on my mind...And also because I conceived of that particular story as one of a set of stories. As it is right now, it stands out rather like a sore thumb in comparison to the rest of the work, so I think I have to do those other stories.
How great will that be if Annie does do those other stories? And what kind of "offbeat and difficult love situations" does she have in mind I wonder?
Nikki, hi.
I saw this link in the DS article about AP...
IMO, she is a big fan apparently of the Lonesome Dove Syndrome, ie, lovers missing thier other halves. I have no doubt she could easily continue in that vein. There are endless depths to plumb; and she was IMO seriously influenced by Larry McMurtry, in her earthy style, one example being the use of "I Swear...". I think Captain Call says this at least once or twice to Gus in "Lonesome Dove" to convery in expressable sorrow/pain.
So I could see her at least staying with that theme, but perhaps going a little crazy and maybe setting one or two of them in a cosmopolitan milieu. She seems to me to be the kind of writer that is smart enough to write what she really knows about, but brilliant enough to accurately imagine the rest.
Also, she seems very aware of substance abuse, and I could see her doing something on that, too. She is big on human beings being taken over by the elements, their environment, as we know from the studies of At Close Range.
CSI
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it sends chills down my spine!
As well it might. "Old, cold" -- cold as a deep freeze, or last night's dinner, or cold comfort. Chills are in order -- put your blue parka on!
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.... one example being the use of "I Swear...". I think Captain Call says this at least once or twice to Gus in "Lonesome Dove" to convery in expressable sorrow/pain.
Pea Eye says it when Deke gets buried.
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In an interview in the "Bookslut"in 2005, Annie had this to say about BBM: ...Actually that story was to be one of three or four stories about offbeat and difficult love situations, but I never wrote any of the others. I just wrote that one....I had to get away from it. It just got too intense and too much on my mind...And also because I conceived of that particular story as one of a set of stories. As it is right now, it stands out rather like a sore thumb in comparison to the rest of the work, so I think I have to do those other stories.
How great will that be if Annie does do those other stories? And what kind of "offbeat and difficult love situations" does she have in mind I wonder?
Nikki, hi.
I saw this link in the DS article about AP...
IMO, she is a big fan apparently of the Lonesome Dove Syndrome, ie, lovers missing thier other halves. I have no doubt she could easily continue in that vein. There are endless depths to plumb; and she was IMO seriously influenced by Larry McMurtry, in her earthy style, one example being the use of "I Swear...". I think Captain Call says this at least once or twice to Gus in "Lonesome Dove" to convery in expressable sorrow/pain.
So I could see her at least staying with that theme, but perhaps going a little crazy and maybe setting one or two of them in a cosmopolitan milieu. She seems to me to be the kind of writer that is smart enough to write what she really knows about, but brilliant enough to accurately imagine the rest.
Also, she seems very aware of substance abuse, and I could see her doing something on that, too. She is big on human beings being taken over by the elements, their environment, as we know from the studies of At Close Range.
CSI
Hi CSI -- I read Lonesome Dove this past summer and I noted the use of "I swear..." I posted something about that during our reading of McMurtry's "Last Picture Show" which we're winding down now. Currently reading "Commanche Moon" part of the "Lonesome Dove" trilogy -- McM is a real master of the western genre -- he won the Pulitizer for "Lonesome..."
Nikki
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it sends chills down my spine!
As well it might. "Old, cold" -- cold as a deep freeze, or last night's dinner, or cold comfort. Chills are in order -- put your blue parka on!
Dal, will my red one do? lol
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I guess because I read the book first, I already had that image in my head of Ennis as an old man, alone in his little trailer, so I didn't see the bit about Alma's wedding as turning it into a happy ending.
I don't see how the prologue could have been included, either, even if was scripted as epilogue. Certainly not visually! However, Lee did say in one interview that he included the scene with Alma Jr., in which Ennis agrees to go to her wedding, because he wanted to end with something "redemptive." And this scene has been gratefully seized on by many posters here, who really don't want to think of Ennis as Proulx left him.
Far as I'm concerned, too, it should have been left unequivocally a tragedy.
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I guess because I read the book first, I already had that image in my head of Ennis as an old man, alone in his little trailer, so I didn't see the bit about Alma's wedding as turning it into a happy ending.
I don't see how the prologue could have been included, either, even if was scripted as epilogue. Certainly not visually! However, Lee did say in one interview that he included the scene with Alma Jr., in which Ennis agrees to go to her wedding, because he wanted to end with something "redemptive." And this scene has been gratefully seized on by many posters here, who really don't want to think of Ennis as Proulx left him.
Far as I'm concerned, too, it should have been left unequivocally a tragedy.
Yes, yes, yes Castro -- finally someone else that sees it like I do -- it was a tragedy! To make it redemptive as Ang did absolutely did nothing for me. Who am I to argue with Ang? Someone who sees only perfection in Annie's story!
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[
Hi CSI -- I read Lonesome Dove this past summer and I noted the use of "I swear..." I posted something about that during our reading of McMurtry's "Last Picture Show" which we're winding down now. Currently reading "Commanche Moon" part of the "Lonesome Dove" trilogy -- McM is a real master of the western genre -- he won the Pulitizer for "Lonesome..."
Nikki
Fabulous book, isn't it? I got an autographed copy somewhere, and I tell you, when I got to shake Larry M's hand, I didn't miss the op to tell him it had affected me as much as Jane Eyre and Catcher in the Rye-You should've seen his face! He was stumbling over himself thanking me. I was stunned. He is a truly humble man, and shocked to have himself compared to the classics, I think.
And to be able to draw characters as well as he does,and keep you in there-me a city girl, in love with a WESTERN for gosh sakes-is a true command of the art. I was not surprised that it got the Pulitzer. How lucky we all were to have two PPrize writers working on the same project, huh?
I read Streets of Laredo, but not Comanche Moon. I better catch up! Is it a good one??
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[
Hi CSI -- I read Lonesome Dove this past summer and I noted the use of "I swear..." I posted something about that during our reading of McMurtry's "Last Picture Show" which we're winding down now. Currently reading "Commanche Moon" part of the "Lonesome Dove" trilogy -- McM is a real master of the western genre -- he won the Pulitizer for "Lonesome..."
Nikki
Fabulous book, isn't it? I got an autographed copy somewhere, and I tell you, when I got to shake Larry M's hand, I didn't miss the op to tell him it had affected me as much as Jane Eyre and Catcher in the Rye-You should've seen his face! He was stumbling over himself thanking me. I was stunned. He is a truly humble man, and shocked to have himself compared to the classics, I think.
And to be able to draw characters as well as he does,and keep you in there-me a city girl, in love with a WESTERN for gosh sakes-is a true command of the art. I was not surprised that it got the Pulitzer. How lucky we all were to have two PPrize writers working on the same project, huh?
I read Streets of Laredo, but not Comanche Moon. I better catch up! Is it a good one??
How lucky CSI -- treasure that! I read his biography too -- he was powerfully affected by classic literature. Yes, I like Commanche Moon -- very long over 700 pages this is the middle book -- takes the young Call and McCrae into more adventures with the Texas Rangers, but it's also fascinating. So now, I'm balancing Commanche and trying to re-read "That Old Ace in the Hole" -- forgotten a lot of it annnnnnnnnnd we've got Front Runner coming up -- never enough time, never enough.
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I am really enjoying That Old Ace in the Hole...if you're not there yet, wait til you get to the quilting circle.... ;D
I know its not everyone's cup of tea, but I found cultural trivia pretty profound.
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Sorry if I confused you WLAGuy -- actually the last 3 or 4 paragraphs in the book starting when he pinned the postcard up over the shirts and looked at the ensemble thru tears -- then "Around that time Jack began to appear in his dreams..." ends with "There was some open space....but if you can't fix it you've got to stand it."
See, I know how some people want the happy ending of Ennis going to the wedding, etc... they feel that he will find love, hope, whatever..., I prefer the way Annie left it -- yes it's bleak, but so powerful IMO. Problem is that the prologue and these last paragraphs would probably require a voice-over and maybe that would have weakened the scene, don't know. IMO the prologue and these paragraphs were so eloquent that I hated to see them left out. Anyway, do you see where I'm coming from?
Okay, I get it. Yes, I think including those lines in the movie would have substantially weakened it. I agree with you that those lines are some of the most powerful lines in the story (and among my favorites), but I can't see any way they could have managed to get them in there -- a voiceover out of nowhere would have confused the hell out of people, wondering who the narrator was who was leaping in at the last second out of nowhere, and having the words roll across the screen wouldn't have worked well either. I guess because I read the book first, I already had that image in my head of Ennis as an old man, alone in his little trailer, so I didn't see the bit about Alma's wedding as turning it into a happy ending.
WLAguy, I agree. Nikki, I do love the prologue to the book too. But my feeling when Alma Jr. drives away is that Ennis is completely alone, wedding coming up or not. Ennis says to her, "What's the occasion?" meaning she doesn't visit very often. His life is very lonely without Jack. The wedding will only be one day, and then Alma Jr. is on to her life and he's back to the trailer and the shirts. For me, it's a very bleak ending for Ennis, much like the book. It has the same sense that he will be dreaming about Jack. I watched it again tonight and the rumpled red cover on the bed, which is front and center in that scene, is so heartbreaking -- a bed for one.
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My thoughts exactly, lauren.
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Hi CSI -- I read Lonesome Dove this past summer and I noted the use of "I swear..." I posted something about that during our reading of McMurtry's "Last Picture Show" which we're winding down now. Currently reading "Commanche Moon" part of the "Lonesome Dove" trilogy -- McM is a real master of the western genre -- he won the Pulitizer for "Lonesome..."
Nikki
*pssst* Nikki and CSI - you inspired me. Look here:
http://davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=12918.0
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the rumpled red cover on the bed, which is front and center in that scene, is so heartbreaking -- a bed for one.
The recliner in the back room is pretty heartbeaking too -- it is set to look only at the closet. That is one lonely boy.
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Hi CSI -- I read Lonesome Dove this past summer and I noted the use of "I swear..." I posted something about that during our reading of McMurtry's "Last Picture Show" which we're winding down now. Currently reading "Commanche Moon" part of the "Lonesome Dove" trilogy -- McM is a real master of the western genre -- he won the Pulitizer for "Lonesome..."
Nikki
*pssst* Nikki and CSI - you inspired me. Look here:
http://davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=12918.0
Hey, Michael! How very cool of you!!
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the rumpled red cover on the bed, which is front and center in that scene, is so heartbreaking -- a bed for one.
The recliner in the back room is pretty heartbeaking too -- it is set to look only at the closet. That is one lonely boy.
That's right, Dal..if he opens the closet, he can sit and stare at the shirts.
I like the red bed cover, Lauren-Jack's other color. Ennis is alone during the day, but takes Jack to bed at night; in his dreams, under the red covers....blood; love; life; death; Jack.
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the rumpled red cover on the bed, which is front and center in that scene, is so heartbreaking -- a bed for one.
The recliner in the back room is pretty heartbeaking too -- it is set to look only at the closet. That is one lonely boy.
That's right, Dal..if he opens the closet, he can sit and stare at the shirts.
I like the red bed cover, Lauren-Jack's other color. Ennis is alone during the day, but takes Jack to bed at night; in his dreams, under the red covers....blood; love; life; death; Jack.
What was that line from the movie that Ennis told Junior: if you ain't got nothin' you don't need nothin' or something when she told him he needed more furniture?
Jack was no longer in his life, so what could Ennis need? That's why I liked book ending so bleak except for his dreams of Jack!!
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That's why I liked book ending so bleak except for his dreams of Jack!!
What's so sickening about it is that his dreams are all of Jack as he had first seen him. I. e. Jack had been right -- all that thay had had, really, had been Brokeback Mountain. Love had kept the both of them alive, but had not in itself proven enough to get them much farther than Brokeback Mountain. Had they gone on and on, Ennis would have had dreams of Jack at every age that Ennis had ever known him.
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That's why I liked book ending so bleak except for his dreams of Jack!!
What's so sickening about it is that his dreams are all of Jack as he had first seen him. I. e. Jack had been right -- all that thay had had, really, had been Brokeback Mountain. Love had kept the both of them alive, but had not in itself proven enough to get them much farther than Brokeback Mountain. Had they gone on and on, Ennis would have had dreams of Jack at every age that Ennis had ever known him.
Maybe so Dal, but it reminds me of the idea that when someone dies young that's the way you always remember them -- and Brokeback was where their love was born: "that old, cold time on the mountain... that we posted yesterday...have you ever dreamed about someone and they were young in your dream -- I have. Remember Ennis fell in love with young Jack, and maybe in his subconscious he always thought of Jack as his young lover--also as years passed things were not so happy -- meetings were sporadic -- they never did get much beyond Brokeback: "...so what we got now is Brokeback Mountain, everything built on that..." how sad!!
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...things were not so happy -- meetings were sporadic -- they never did get much beyond Brokeback: "...so what we got now is Brokeback Mountain, everything built on that..." how sad!!
That's exactly what I meant Nikki. After 20 years, they really should have had much more than Brokeback to look back on with pleasure. I have had somebody die young on me, younger than Jack. I dream of them as I first saw them -- and as I last saw them, and every time in between. Ennis' dreams are of Jack only on Brokeback; that speaks volumes about what they had missed, because of homophobia.
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That's why I liked book ending so bleak except for his dreams of Jack!!
What's so sickening about it is that his dreams are all of Jack as he had first seen him. I. e. Jack had been right -- all that thay had had, really, had been Brokeback Mountain. Love had kept the both of them alive, but had not in itself proven enough to get them much farther than Brokeback Mountain. Had they gone on and on, Ennis would have had dreams of Jack at every age that Ennis had ever known him.
I think Ennis' thoughts about Jack at a young age are typical of anyone who has ever fallen in love. You remember the person as they were when you first met them. They never grow "old" in your mind. He would probably had dreamed of a young Jack even if had lived day in and day out together. Both Ennis and Jack remember that time on the mountain because they fell in love there; it's a timeless place, and sacred. I wouldn't say their love didn't get them far --- it got them both very far. It gave them each other, each completing the other, for nearly 20 years, and, if Jack had lived, there would have been a long lifetime's worth of love to go.
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...things were not so happy -- meetings were sporadic -- they never did get much beyond Brokeback: "...so what we got now is Brokeback Mountain, everything built on that..." how sad!!
That's exactly what I meant Nikki. After 20 years, they really should have had much more than Brokeback to look back on with pleasure. I have had somebody die young on me, younger than Jack. I dream of them as I first saw them -- and as I last saw them, and every time in between. Ennis' dreams are of Jack only on Brokeback; that speaks volumes about what they had missed, because of homophobia.
I guess I see it a little differently. They had 17 years together, and during that time, you bet that they reveled in each other's company, made love as much as they could, relaxed in the peace of each other's presence. That's why they return to each other year after year, why those trips are treasured, short though they may be. No one else around them was gay and living together so it's understandable that they were walking in the dark most of the time. Again, the dreams Ennis has come from that sacred place, where they fell in love. It sustained them both during their long absences. Although homophobia kept them from being together all the time, at least they found each other, and did what it took to keep that flame alive. Homophobia made this needlessly difficult, as you say. Two people in love should never have to endure what they endured.
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the rumpled red cover on the bed, which is front and center in that scene, is so heartbreaking -- a bed for one.
The recliner in the back room is pretty heartbeaking too -- it is set to look only at the closet. That is one lonely boy.
That's right, Dal..if he opens the closet, he can sit and stare at the shirts.
I like the red bed cover, Lauren-Jack's other color. Ennis is alone during the day, but takes Jack to bed at night; in his dreams, under the red covers....blood; love; life; death; Jack.
The red blanket! You're right -- I thought of that but then thought maybe I was reading too much into it. But, I think you're right. Red was Jack's other color and including that bed cover had to be intentional by Lee. I like the juxtoposition of words you lay out as well.
P.S. A little OT from another thread (I think) but I had a conversation with someone at work today about the shadow from the shirts that you mentioned in Jack's bedroom, and he thought that was facscinating and likely intentional by Lee as well since he decided to include that kind of lighting in that scene. He could have left it with natural light which would not have cast a shadow at all.
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Hi, Lauren. yes Ang Lee really doesn't let much happen on film unintentionally, at least not with the camera, IMO.
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...things were not so happy -- meetings were sporadic -- they never did get much beyond Brokeback: "...so what we got now is Brokeback Mountain, everything built on that..." how sad!!
That's exactly what I meant Nikki. After 20 years, they really should have had much more than Brokeback to look back on with pleasure. I have had somebody die young on me, younger than Jack. I dream of them as I first saw them -- and as I last saw them, and every time in between. Ennis' dreams are of Jack only on Brokeback; that speaks volumes about what they had missed, because of homophobia.
I also like to think that this is a major clue about Ennis: That as much as the shirts tell us Jack loved him from day 1-his dreams of Jack from the earliest days tell us the same about Ennis.
So double-tragedy: Ennis was not aware of the depth and breadth of Jack's true love; nor did he know whether or not Jack knew of his love from day 1.
Safe to say Jack did know, but Annie leaves Ennis wondering, per the 'some space' line in the text, and that is agony for us.
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Two people in love should never have to endure what they endured.
That's right. And their love should have a chance to grow, not be thwarted. It should deepen and change with time, not merely "never grow old". They had a once-in-a-lifetime love; it's promise was thwarted. There are various ways of looking at the "central tragedy" of the story, depending on what point of view you are taking at the moment. Surely, the thwarting of their love by homophobia is one way of expressing the tragedy.
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[No one else around them was gay and living together so it's understandable that they were walking in the dark most of the time.
This is something that has given me pause when I read the story, and again now that I'm reading 'The Front Runner'. I managed to figure out I was gay and to try and reach out beginning in 1970 in Huron County, Michigan (not exactly a hotbed of gay rights activity - I assure you). Six years later I was working in a bookstore in East Lansing and there was gay material all around.
Why wouldn't Jack have gone to Laramie or driven through Lincoln, Nebraska or gone to Austin to figure things out? Back then the Advocate was sold at adult bookstores too. And a lot of guys didn't figure it was 'gay' to fool around with other guys in the 70s (trust me on this).
I'm not saying Annie is wrong - I'm just saying this has always been something of a conundrum for me in the story - why wouldn't Jack have tried to figure this out? He mentions Denver in the short story and he goes to Juarez. Anyone have any thoughts on this?
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I wanted to 'catch' you, Michael, to thank you for your kind words re: my 300th post. :)
Did Annie just want to keep jack occupied and 'in the dark' because the story required it? Or was he more aware than he let on, but just aware of how much Ennis could -or would want to - process ?
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[No one else around them was gay and living together so it's understandable that they were walking in the dark most of the time.
This is something that has given me pause when I read the story, and again now that I'm reading 'The Front Runner'. I managed to figure out I was gay and to try and reach out beginning in 1970 in Huron County, Michigan (not exactly a hotbed of gay rights activity - I assure you). Six years later I was working in a bookstore in East Lansing and there was gay material all around.
Why wouldn't Jack have gone to Laramie or driven through Lincoln, Nebraska or gone to Austin to figure things out? Back then the Advocate was sold at adult bookstores too. And a lot of guys didn't figure it was 'gay' to fool around with other guys in the 70s (trust me on this).
I'm not saying Annie is wrong - I'm just saying this has always been something of a conundrum for me in the story - why wouldn't Jack have tried to figure this out? He mentions Denver in the short story and he goes to Juarez. Anyone have any thoughts on this?
I think he might've been more brave if he knew he had something worth risking exposure for:
A 'real' relationship, ie, day to day life, with Ennis.
Because as set up by the author, even Jack knew the risk was great; AP refers to is as "their homophobia" not just Ennis'. Both were raised in this rural homophobic setting, with iconic western values. They were undereducated, and without too many social resources. IMO.
I think she set them up to ensure the only place they had to go was inside themselves for their answers. The world wasn't going to help them, in their respective estimations.
Another built-in condemnation of homophobia.
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Perhaps Jack knew Ennis would never change -- after 20 years there was nothing Jack could do to bring Ennis around to his way of thiniking. This makes me crazy -- why didn't Jack make more of an effort after 10 years -- there were other places they could have gone outside of Wyoming and Texas -- but then we would be changing Annie's story!
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I wanted to 'catch' you, Michael, to thank you for your kind words re: my 300th post. :)
Did Annie just want to keep jack occupied and 'in the dark' because the story required it? Or was he more aware than he let on, but just aware of how much Ennis could -or would want to - process ?
You're certainly welcome! I like to acknowledge these milestones (I'm a little sentimental that way) ;).
Both you and Nikki make the very valid point that if Jack had changed we would be dealing with a much different stroy - and you're right. But having been a gay man who came from the darkness of not knowing into the light of knowledge during this period does make it hard for me not to ask that question. But as they say: 'let be, let be'!
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I think he might've been more brave if he knew he had something worth risking exposure for:
A 'real' relationship, ie, day to day life, with Ennis.
Because as set up by the author, even Jack knew the risk was great; AP refers to is as "their homophobia" not just Ennis'. Both were raised in this rural homophobic setting, with iconic western values. They were undereducated, and without too many social resources. IMO.
I think she set them up to ensure the only place they had to go was inside themselves for their answers. The world wasn't going to help them, in their respective estimations.
Another built-in condemnation of homophobia.
I agree that they were undereducated - but (and pardon me - I don't mean to offend anyone's sensibilities here) I'm not really talking about knowledge as such. People who were picking up books like 'Blueboy' and 'In Touch' in the 70s were not exactly engaging in heavy thinking. ;)
I was not really relying on any sort of 'self-realiziation' - I was more thinking of the (erm) sexually curious men who looked at 'naughty' magazines - and any of those mags had ads in them that would have eventually led you into contact with other gay men. I'm just saying that it seems strange to me that someone would know enough to go to Juarez to pick up a trick, but not wander into an adult bookstore.
However, you make a very valid point in talking about internalized homophobia in both of these characters. That probably would have kept them away from any information - 'blue' or not - about homosexuality.
As I say, living through the 70s as an out gay man it is something of a conundrum to me. But then (not to get O.T.) some of the maneuvers that the characters in 'The Front Runner' go through seem a bit convoluted to me too.
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Why wouldn't Jack have gone to Laramie or driven through Lincoln, Nebraska or gone to Austin to figure things out? Back then the Advocate was sold at adult bookstores too. And a lot of guys didn't figure it was 'gay' to fool around with other guys in the 70s (trust me on this).
I'm not saying Annie is wrong - I'm just saying this has always been something of a conundrum for me in the story - why wouldn't Jack have tried to figure this out? He mentions Denver in the short story and he goes to Juarez. Anyone have any thoughts on this?
Michael, you make some good points. Perhaps Jack was so self-involved with his life in Childress and his obsession with Ennis that he didn't think to go to Denver or other cities where he could have explored gay culture in newspapers, etc.. IMO he was very needy for a sexual companion to relieve the pressure (the Mexican prostitute; other men?), so that as long as he had someone to "scratch the itch" he felt no need to explore other outlets. ("I can't make it on a couple of high altitude fucks..."). He lived on the hope that Ennis would come around, and by the time he realized hope was futile it was too late, and he was too beaten down.
Also, Jack like Ennis was an uneducated man, and I don't think he knew how to ask the questions, let alone find the answers.
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I think he might've been more brave if he knew he had something worth risking exposure for:
A 'real' relationship, ie, day to day life, with Ennis.
Because as set up by the author, even Jack knew the risk was great; AP refers to is as "their homophobia" not just Ennis'. Both were raised in this rural homophobic setting, with iconic western values. They were undereducated, and without too many social resources. IMO.
I think she set them up to ensure the only place they had to go was inside themselves for their answers. The world wasn't going to help them, in their respective estimations.
Another built-in condemnation of homophobia.
I agree that they were undereducated - but (and pardon me - I don't mean to offend anyone's sensibilities here) I'm not really talking about knowledge as such. People who were picking up books like 'Blueboy' and 'In Touch' in the 70s were not exactly engaging in heavy thinking. ;)
I was not really relying on any sort of 'self-realiziation' - I was more thinking of the (erm) sexually curious men who looked at 'naughty' magazines - and any of those mags had ads in them that would have eventually led you into contact with other gay men. I'm just saying that it seems strange to me that someone would know enough to go to Juarez to pick up a trick, but not wander into an adult bookstore.
However, you make a very valid point in talking about internalized homophobia in both of these characters. That probably would have kept them away from any information - 'blue' or not - about homosexuality.
As I say, living through the 70s as an out gay man it is something of a conundrum to me. But then (not to get O.T.) some of the maneuvers that the characters in 'The Front Runner' go through seem a bit convoluted to me too.
There is a sequel to The Front Runner, but I think even the title might be a spoiler, so I won't state it; but is shows how to a degree the 'movement' has picked up steam only very slowly over time. It is hard to say where we will be in another 20 years.
Hopefully, it will no longer matter to people who does what with who. Just so there is love or at least good intentions involved.
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As I say, living through the 70s as an out gay man it is something of a conundrum to me.
Guess East Lansing & San Fransico are Oz, to Wyoming's Kansas. Out guys are from Oz, Jack is from Kansas!
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As I say, living through the 70s as an out gay man it is something of a conundrum to me.
Guess East Lansing & San Fransico are Oz, to Wyoming's Kansas. Out guys are from Oz, Jack is from Kansas!
What's interesting about this whole thing is that I realize my 'rescue' response has kicked in. It was alive and kickin' in the 70s, when I tried to rescue several men - now I'm trying to rescue fictional characters. Help!
But it's true. As I reflect on the story and look at the period of my life that exists with Jack and Ennis, you can't help but think about the people you knew in similar circumstances that you tried to help. Ultimately even if they had known someone who had wanted to help they would have had to be willing/able to accept that help. And I think that the ultimate truth of the internalized homophobia (at least in Ennis) is that they never would have been able to.
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I find the ending of the film just about perfect - superior in some ways to the book, since at least it's implied Ennis has learned some little thing regarding the importance of love, when he agrees to attend Alma, Jr.'s wedding. I don't see it really mitigating the central tragedy of the story at all, though - if anything, I think it enhances it in a way. Jack's death - and the circumstances surrounding it - were so tragic and traumatic, it's fundamentally altered Ennis's nature. This enhances the tragedy for me, because it shows that Ennis can really change, only that change has come too late.
If Ennis had known Jack was moving on before Jack died, he might have had the same kind of realization and changed his behavior accordingly, saving both their relationship and Jack's life. But because of the distance Ennis imposed between them, he didn't know Jack was moving on - he didn't even know about Jack's death until presumably months after it had occurred. That to me makes Brokeback uniquely tragic. It's not just the story of lovers separated by death. It's the story of two lovers separated ultimately by their own self-loathing, with the surviving partner realizing only too late how to at least begin to accept that love.
I am also so thankful that Ang Lee emphasized the emotional, sexual repression of the two characters and pared down much of the more self-aware dialog from the short story (which I frankly found somewhat unrealistic, having come from the rural west myself). Brokeback Mountain the film was very much defined by its subtext as a result of this, and yes you could easily become confused, frustrated or disinterested if you weren't paying careful attention and making the correct inferences. In that way the experience of the film very much mirrored the environment of rural emotional depravation that formed its two protagonists, who likewise had to seek out signs of approval and affection from the subtext of their everyday lives. But once you learn how to read that subtext, a whole new world opens up before you - to paraphrase what a critic said about the film, watching Brokeback Mountain is like watching love being invented.
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Annie Proulx's ending of the story isn't all that different from the film other than she provides the reader a small view of Ennis after the "I Swear" scene, though that insight is significant.
P.S. I think the film's ending does capture the bleakness of Annie's last few paragraphs. Even with Alma Jr.'s upcoming wedding inclusion in the film. For me, that provides deeper contrast between the happy life that is going on around Ennis, outside of his world of loss and memories inside his trailer, just he and the shirts. Quite bleak I think.
I recently returned from Annie Proulx's lecture at the Davidson College in North Carolina, and during the susequent Q & A session, there were many questions about BBM, of course. She said that after working on the short story for 6 months solid, she sent it to her publisher. Something bothered her, and after tossing and turning that night, she contacted her publisher the next morning and changed the last line. Sorry, but she never did say what the original last line was, and probably never will.
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shows how to a degree the 'movement' has picked up steam only very slowly over time. It is hard to say where we will be in another 20 years.
Hopefully, it will no longer matter to people who does what with who. Just so there is love or at least good intentions involved.
I agree CSI -- trouble is there will always be those who for some reason cannot leave people alone -- I guess it's the metaphorical "tire iron" mentality.
BTW don't worry about the sequal to "Front Runner" giving it away -- we all know the sequal's title, and I never mind knowing the ending unlesssssssssss it's a mystery!!
Nikki
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I have posted so many times how I feel about the movie ending as opposed to book ending that I won't elaborate anymore. It's becoming like quit/no quit -- a no win situation IMO. However, yes the film was beautiful with its sweeping vistas of Brokeback and it's heartbreaking story; its perfect cast and handsome, hot, cowboys. Buuuuuuuuuuuut I will say for the last time there are two scenes I missed that Ang excluded: the motel scene which to me was pivotal and for which Annie originally fought. Also the ending with the daughter which I likened to a Hollywood ending -- Ennis going to Jr's wedding. Just because he agreed to go to the wedding, doesn't mean he will not grow old and bitter. The wedding is only a moment in his life, he loved his daughter he'll do that for her. In the book, Ennis thinks he may have to live with her until he finds a place, so the story showed his close relationship to his daughter, but didin't offer false hope.
Before anyone comes down on me -- I've heard it all i.e., the movie offers hope -- I don't see it -- it offers a moment in Ennis' life. The story ending is too bleak -- that's life -- the ending has "a terrible beauty" (to paraphrase Yeats). Doesn't mean I don't like the movie -- I LOVED it -- watched it multiple times; read the story-to-script multiple times -- read the threads on all premutations of the story here multiple times. But this is my opinion and I stand by it, so please don't throw virtual tire irons at me or try to lure me into another argument - c'est fini !!!
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I find the ending of the film just about perfect - superior in some ways to the book, since at least it's implied Ennis has learned some little thing regarding the importance of love, when he agrees to attend Alma, Jr.'s wedding. I don't see it really mitigating the central tragedy of the story at all, though - if anything, I think it enhances it in a way. Jack's death - and the circumstances surrounding it - were so tragic and traumatic, it's fundamentally altered Ennis's nature. This enhances the tragedy for me, because it shows that Ennis can really change, only that change has come too late.
If Ennis had known Jack was moving on before Jack died, he might have had the same kind of realization and changed his behavior accordingly, saving both their relationship and Jack's life. But because of the distance Ennis imposed between them, he didn't know Jack was moving on - he didn't even know about Jack's death until presumably months after it had occurred. That to me makes Brokeback uniquely tragic. It's not just the story of lovers separated by death. It's the story of two lovers separated ultimately by their own self-loathing, with the surviving partner realizing only too late how to at least begin to accept that love.
I am also so thankful that Ang Lee emphasized the emotional, sexual repression of the two characters and pared down much of the more self-aware dialog from the short story (which I frankly found somewhat unrealistic, having come from the rural west myself). Brokeback Mountain the film was very much defined by its subtext as a result of this, and yes you could easily become confused, frustrated or disinterested if you weren't paying careful attention and making the correct inferences. In that way the experience of the film very much mirrored the environment of rural emotional depravation that formed its two protagonists, who likewise had to seek out signs of approval and affection from the subtext of their everyday lives. But once you learn how to read that subtext, a whole new world opens up before you - to paraphrase what a critic said about the film, watching Brokeback Mountain is like watching love being invented.
Sunspot, this is a lovely post...I wonder if you'd consider posting the top two paragraphs in the 'Last Scene' thread, esp the last sentence of the first paragraph-? that would give us even more food for thought....just a request. tx.
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shows how to a degree the 'movement' has picked up steam only very slowly over time. It is hard to say where we will be in another 20 years.
Hopefully, it will no longer matter to people who does what with who. Just so there is love or at least good intentions involved.
I agree CSI -- trouble is there will always be those who for some reason cannot leave people alone -- I guess it's the metaphorical "tire iron" mentality.
BTW don't worry about the sequal to "Front Runner" giving it away -- we all know the sequal's title, and I never mind knowing the ending unlesssssssssss it's a mystery!!
Nikki
thanks, Nikki...I really look forward to the discussion; I've never shared my thoughts about this novel with anyone, because when I read this book the first time, it was definitely underground, the kind of novel passed around in the dorm., and he never saw the light of day outside the dorm.
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I loved this from Annie in the "Boston Globe" around the time "Postcards" was published:
I like people who speak out...I don't like people who are polite and silent. I like people who say what's on their mind, even if they offend. I don't have the patience to dig and delve into people. She sure did that in her Commentary "Blood on the Red Carpet" in "The Guardian" after the Oscar debacle. She ended that article with For those who call this little piece a Sour Grapes Rant, play it as it lays. This is the Annie we all know and love!!
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Sunspot, this is a lovely post...I wonder if you'd consider posting the top two paragraphs in the 'Last Scene' thread, esp the last sentence of the first paragraph-? that would give us even more food for thought....just a request. tx.
OK, but only because you invited me! ;)
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Oh, goody!
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Just finished re-reading "That Old Ace in the Hole." Not typical Proulx, but a fun book chock full of Annie's quirky characters and a very appealing protagonist.
This time Annie takes us to the Texas/Oklahoma panhandles, and introduces the reader to a variety of characters and situations that will find you chuckling, i.e., a quilting group of old ladies who indulge in local gossip as they quilt. This section is worthy of a short story in and of itself.
I love Proulx, but once in a while I need a change from some of her more "gothic" writing -- this story, while a bit heavy on Annie's usual research into local folkways and geography, is more of a lighthearted journey for Bob Dollar, the protagonist, as well as the reader.
Anyone else read this? Comments?
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ACE IN THE HOLE SPOILER
Nikki -
What you said. Great dialogue - sounds just like West TX. Except "barb wire" -- should be "bobwar". Anyway, so many things are like a parody of AP -- dire sybolism and storm clouds boiling up, which just disappear etc. Or, something awful is foreshadowed for Bob -- but then, it happens to somebody else instead! Sometimes he's almost like a complete idiot meandering thru a battle, thinks the whine of bullets is just mosquitoes. Not too apprectiative of his Unc either, until the end. Yet you have to like him.... why? I can't figure it out, now that I think about it. I think the gay couple must be AP's "opposite" of J & E, in a way. I has that tang of the library about it like you say, but at least not nearly as bad as Accordion Crimes. Plus, that one had those @#$%%^& accordions at every chapter heading - how tiresome and pointless. Or, I didn't see a point anyway.
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ACE IN THE HOLE SPOILER
Nikki -
What you said. Great dialogue - sounds just like West TX. Except "barb wire" -- should be "bobwar". Anyway, so many things are like a parody of AP -- dire sybolism and storm clouds boiling up, which just disappear etc. Or, something awful is foreshadowed for Bob -- but then, it happens to somebody else instead! Sometimes he's almost like a complete idiot meandering thru a battle, thinks the whine of bullets is just mosquitoes. Not too apprectiative of his Unc either, until the end. Yet you have to like him.... why? I can't figure it out, now that I think about it. I think the gay couple must be AP's "opposite" of J & E, in a way. I has that tang of the library about it like you say, but at least not nearly as bad as Accordion Crimes. Plus, that one had those @#$%%^& accordions at every chapter heading - how tiresome and pointless. Or, I didn't see a point anyway.
Dal, you're so right about Bob -- I liked him, but sometimes I wanted to smack him upside the head! He was appealing though -- just a nice guy I think -- not bad looking either for an Annie hero! I also liked the uncle very much and Bromo - hated to see him leave -- would have liked their story fleshed out a bit more ( sort of Jack and Ennis older). Bob learned affection from his unc.
BTW this story makes me want to see the Tex/Ok panhandles -- there's a point where Tex/Ok/La come together called Texarkana (sp?) do you know it? Think it's around northwestern Louisiana.
Agree totally with you about Accordian Crimes -- still haven't passed the first quarter -- will try some day! Think it's gotten good reviews from what I've looked up -- kinda think now critics are afraid to criticize Annie -- she's become such an icon! Oh well.......
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Dal -- you are slipping -- you did not warn about the spoiler for accordian crimes!
Um -- you know I'm kidding, right?
I really loved That Old Ace in the Hole although I am sorry to admit I jumped around in it. Wasn't in the mood for the quilting party so I jumped ahead then went back to it. You could do that in ACE but wouldn't dare in Postcards. I haven't read Accordian.
My favorite characters:
Uncle Tam. Every time he was in a scene it was delightful.
Bob and his crossword puzzle affinity, -- how he dazzled his villainous boss "Cluke" with his ready definitions to words LOL
How he ticked off Uncle Tam's BF by being better at cross word puzzles.
I laughed out loud when the smart guy, the windmill expert (who taught Ace)-- the guy who was so good at math, didn't understand percents and bungled his oil deal.
Ace's wife Lolly and her obsession with Ruby. OMG that was so vivid. It lasted four years, whatever it was -- love, or fear -- (I paraphrase)
But that was the biggest mystery in the book -- who was the father of Ace and Lolly's granddaughter? There is no indication it was Ruby (the granddaughter has dark hair) but are we supposed to think so? Whoever he is, Ace ran him off when he tried to visit.
I really wanted to know. >:(
Annie left me wanting more, yet again :)
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BTW this story makes me want to see the Tex/Ok panhandles -- there's a point where Tex/Ok/La come together called Texarkana (sp?) do you know it? Think it's around northwestern Louisiana.
Isn't it amazing Annie has taken one of the most godforsaken places in the nation (so god-forsaken that pig farms can thrive) and made it interesting enough for us readers to be curious about visiting, pig farms and all.
She even made the pig farms interesting.
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ACE IN THE HOLE SPOILER
...I also liked the uncle very much and Bromo - hated to see him leave -- would have liked their story fleshed out a bit more ( sort of Jack and Ennis older). Bob learned affection from his unc.
Tam and Bromo are interesting aren't they. Both basically nice guys; just loved out. Part good friends. At first I wanted to smack Bob for being such an ungrateful slob to them both; but that's how all kids are, aren't they? T & B are really Bob's parents.
Texarkana is half inTX and half in LA, hence the name. You heard right: far NW LA. Believe it or not, there are actually alligators in the easternmost Red River; people on farms in OK or TX occasionally see one.
The Panhandles are very boring to visit unless you know someone who can show you around the "back country" IMO. You won't even be able to find the TORNADO AND BALL POINT PEN MUSEUM equivalents which are scattered here and there across West Texas.
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ACE IN THE HOLE SPOILER
Texarkana is half inTX and half in LA, hence the name. You heard right: far NW LA. Believe it or not, there are actually alligators in the easternmost Red River; people on farms in OK or TX occasionally see one.
The Panhandles are very boring to visit unless you know someone who can show you around the "back country" IMO. You won't even be able to find the TORNADO AND BALL POINT PEN MUSEUM equivalents which are scattered here and there across West Texas.
Dal, the Red River runs through Louisiana -- my mom grew up in Alexandria, La. sort of north central Louisiana she talked about the Red River -- since we had alligators in La. maybe they swam up river to Texas!!??? Never saw one growing up in NO, but visited bayous and saw scary snakes -- cotton mouth moccasins etc. Would still like to visit north Texas and the Panhandles though.
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Hey, I have to disagree that the Texas and Oklahoma panhandles are boring (unless you are referring to urban pleasures) though of course we are not all interested in exactly the same things (thank goodness!). However, to my mind there is no more magnificent scenery in the land than the Palo Duro canyon in Texas and the land around Black Mesa in the western end of the Oklahoma panhandle.
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there is no more magnificent scenery in the land than the Palo Duro canyon in Texas and the land around Black Mesa in the western end of the Oklahoma panhandle.
I think you're right. I was just thinking that your average furriner (like for instance from New Jersey) would not know where to go, and would wind up looking at ~ 1,000,000 hectare of sorghum.
Nobody outside Texas used to know about Palo Duro. Is it all brochured and websited and high-end-lodged out now? Hope not, actually.
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Just finished re-reading "That Old Ace in the Hole." Not typical Proulx, but a fun book chock full of Annie's quirky characters and a very appealing protagonist.
This time Annie takes us to the Texas/Oklahoma panhandles, and introduces the reader to a variety of characters and situations that will find you chuckling, i.e., a quilting group of old ladies who indulge in local gossip as they quilt. This section is worthy of a short story in and of itself.
I love Proulx, but once in a while I need a change from some of her more "gothic" writing -- this story, while a bit heavy on Annie's usual research into local folkways and geography, is more of a lighthearted journey for Bob Dollar, the protagonist, as well as the reader.
Anyone else read this? Comments?
Yes, I read and enjoyed it in the end. It seemed so loosely structured that it seemed to be just and endless string of tales for a while until I began to see where it was going.
I agree that it's more of a lighthearted journey. I think AP says something along the lines that she wrote it as a form of relief from the intensity and tragedy of Brokeback Mountain, to gt Ennis and Jack out of her head.
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Just finished re-reading "That Old Ace in the Hole." Not typical Proulx, but a fun book chock full of Annie's quirky characters and a very appealing protagonist.
This time Annie takes us to the Texas/Oklahoma panhandles, and introduces the reader to a variety of characters and situations that will find you chuckling, i.e., a quilting group of old ladies who indulge in local gossip as they quilt. This section is worthy of a short story in and of itself.
I love Proulx, but once in a while I need a change from some of her more "gothic" writing -- this story, while a bit heavy on Annie's usual research into local folkways and geography, is more of a lighthearted journey for Bob Dollar, the protagonist, as well as the reader.
Anyone else read this? Comments?
Yes, I read and enjoyed it in the end. It seemed so loosely structured that it seemed to be just and endless string of tales for a while until I began to see where it was going.
I agree that it's more of a lighthearted journey. I think AP says something along the lines that she wrote it as a form of relief from the intensity and tragedy of Brokeback Mountain, to gt Ennis and Jack out of her head.
Tony, I can surely understand that -- I read that too -- what is therapy for Annie becomes a best seller!!!
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I has that tang of the library about it like you say, but at least not nearly as bad as Accordion Crimes. Plus, that one had those @#$%%^& accordions at every chapter heading - how tiresome and pointless. Or, I didn't see a point anyway.
Don't knock the accordions, Dal! Admittedly, the technical descriptions get heavy going, but I like the ones at the head of each chapter, illustrating the variety of types of instruments. I also enjoyed the rich panorama of aspects of European and US and Canadian social history that are essential to the stories.
One unfortunate effect of the worldwide spread of the accordion is that it has led to a standardization of music across the world, because of its fixed tuning. You can't play the quarter-tones and other characteristics of much non-Western European music on an accordion, though folk-music in many parts of the world adopted it. Maybe its the folksiness of the accordion that saw it drop out of fashion for a long time.
There's an Australian comedian, of Russian descent, who calls himself the Sandman. He had a very original series on TV a couple of years ago which featured a brilliant and very spunky young accordionist (I think of Italian descent) who played a solo in each show. Throughout the show, the Sandman and the accordionist would engage in witty dialogues between segments, the Sandman speaking and the accordionist responding eloquently and musically and never uttering a word.
My parents met, I think, in an accordion band, though they never had one and never played in my lifetime and didn't listen to accordion music - too busy, too much illness in the family and constant money worries. When I was in primary school, they gave me a piano accordion for Christmas, but they couldn't afford to pay for me to learn and I'm not musically talented enough to teach myself. Some years later, we had our first holiday away from home in a little country town. The family who owned the flat we rented played us a recording of Verdi's Rigoletto, the first time I'd heard it. Some months later, their teenage son came to work in Melbourne and our families struck up an arrangement where he had dinner with us once a week and in return gave mne an accordion lesson. The lessons continued for about a year and I learned to play a few songs, though with only two bass notes. John didn't read music, so he just wrote down the names of the notes for each song and I rarely played them after our lessons stopped.
Later again, my parents and a neighbour arranged for me to have cornet lessons from an old Salvation Army man in the next street. I had to play his cornet, but I was so revolted by the instrument covered with his saliva that I never went back.
I wish I had known my paternal grandfather, who was an amateur choral conductor. My aunt gave me his baton some years ago. He was supposed to have been a protege of the well-known soprano Nellie Melba. But he had a heart attacjk and died when Dad was 8 years old. I wonder about what a loving man he must have been - he converted to Catholicism in order to marry my grandmother.
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My parents met, I think, in an accordion band, ....
This line just jumped off the page, er, screen, at me. What a great opening line this would be for an autobiography, no?
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ACCORDION CRIMES SPOILER? .....maybe
I did not mind the social history at all. What made me crazy was e.g. exact names of obscure period songs broadcast on named obscure dead radio programs, picked up by named defunct brands of radios. Ok, OK, we're in the 1920s, got it already -- no need to drive it home with an ice pick. Or the Tex-Mex daddy accordionist, thinking in English mostly, but every few words a short phrase in Spanish. Wierd and contrived I think. I liked some of the vignettes. In general though, it seemed slower going and less rewarding than her other stuff.
I would not have minded the chapter-heading accordions, if I they had added to my understanding of the action, or provided comic elief. Or were they meant to? Maybe I just didn't get it.
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ACCORDION CRIMES SPOILER? .....maybe
I did not mind the social history at all. What made me crazy was e.g. exact names of obscure period songs broadcast on named obscure dead radio programs, picked up by named defunct brands of radios. Ok, OK, we're in the 1920s, got it already -- no need to drive it home with an ice pick. Or the Tex-Mex daddy accordionist, thinking in English mostly, but every few words a short phrase in Spanish. Wierd and contrived I think. I liked some of the vignettes. In general though, it seemed slower going and less rewarding than her other stuff.
I would not have minded the chapter-heading accordions, if I they had added to my understanding of the action, or provided comic elief. Or were they meant to? Maybe I just didn't get it.
Dal, did you actually finish it? Still at the first quarter -- it's like taking medicine. I don't feel like I'm reading Proulx!!!
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My parents met, I think, in an accordion band, ....
This line just jumped off the page, er, screen, at me. What a great opening line this would be for an autobiography, no?
Followed up by the story of Dad proposing to Mum in front of the monkey cage at Royal Park Zoo?
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TOAITH was a good book but I had to slow down to understand it. It's very rural, very country. I started it, put it down, slowed down and read again from page one. It made sense then. Bob Dollar is infuriating and really likeable, the book is written with wit and all in all it's a great story. Annie is good at this isn't she!!
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TOAITH was a good book but I had to slow down to understand it. It's very rural, very country. I started it, put it down, slowed down and read again from page one. It made sense then. Bob Dollar is infuriating and really likeable, the book is written with wit and all in all it's a great story. Annie is good at this isn't she!!
Right BB. This was a welcome relief after the heavy stuff in CLose Range. Bob Dollar is almost Forest Gump-like sometimes -- wanted to smack him -- but he is a good guy -- very appealing and thoughtful. Lots of humor here and down-home folks!
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I just finished That Old Ace In the Hole...I loved the following:
The Quilting Circle-jeez, these broads are as tough as their men;
The wasp getting after Bob in the car;
Bob walking the mile from the gate to the ranch to see Ace Crouch, and almost getting sunstroke;
Tazzy managing to hit everyone but her target; Bob is a little like that;
The shadowy lump in the pasture-eewwwwww!
The ranchers having confectionary knowledge, when the Tea shop open up, and the restaurant staying open later to compete;
So many little details, both funny and unnerving.
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Some other things I enjoyed in "That Old Ace..." that I forgot to mention. I always love Annie's characters' names, i.e., Sheriff Hugh Dough; Tater Crouch; Rope Butt; Freda Beautyrooms; Red Poarch and many others. There are readers who like to find deeper meanings in Proulx's characters' names, and in some instances it's too obvious to ignore. However, if you spend time in any isolated small town, it isn't hard to find strange names and even stranger characters! As my mom always said, "Truth is stranger than fiction." I wish she was alive to read Annie -- how she would have enjoyed the homespun humor in "Ace."
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Some other things I enjoyed in "That Old Ace..." that I forgot to mention. I always love Annie's characters' names, i.e., Sheriff Hugh Dough; Tater Crouch; Rope Butt; Freda Beautyrooms; Red Poarch and many others. There are readers who like to find deeper meanings in Proulx's characters' names, and in some instances it's too obvious to ignore. However, if you spend time in any isolated small town, it isn't hard to find strange names and even stranger characters! As my mom always said, "Truth is stranger than fiction." I wish she was alive to read Annie -- how she would have enjoyed the homespun humor in "Ace."
Ah, yes the names: Francis Scott Keister! How perfect. I really like Free da Beauty Rooms, and even Bob Dollar/dime/nickel, all those little potshots they took at him.
He feels worthless, and they kind of verify, that in terms of the Panhandle life, he is. Who knows how late he really is with trying to get those sales? How long did Ace have his plan in effect? I love the double-meaning in the title, too, one about having a back-up plan; but the other about a predator waiting in a hole to spring on you...very creative.
I hope she writes fiction again soon...I want the Ennis sequel, so help my soap opera heart.
Proulx is REALLY FUNNY...
.anyone who has not read Shipping News is missing some belly laughs, too, over those newspaper headlines, aren't they?
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Yeah, like "The Hairy Devil" and "The Gammy Bird" !!!
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OK, don't lynch me. This link to the notorious Nathan Lane BBM show on Letterman got posted in the gay/masculinity thread. Yes, i saw it in December and was appalled. I couldn't even watch it through this time the effect was worse, my stomach flipped when they started to sing Brokeback Mountain to the tune of Oklahoma....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2st0BND2lvY
Now if THIS is what a gay performer thought necessary for America NOT to get upset at Ang Lee's masterpiece--itself a brilliant version of Annie Proulx's literary masterpiece--why the hell are we even trying? Has anything changed? It's a serious question: if this is what was necessary to make a masterpiece palatable, how the devil can the book matter?
Seeing this again really threw me for a loop
I don't think it's off topic but if it is, mods please remove the post.
Jack
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Well BB, you know nothing is sacred on Letterman, especially if Nathan Lane is a guest. I remember when Jake Gyllenhaal was on Leno and Leno asked him, Jake, how he felt about people parodying BBM, Jake, said "Bring it on!" I think you just have to lighten up -- and as Jake said, Bring it on. They apparently did a parody of BBM on Saturday Night Live, which I didn't see, but did hear much about it.
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Well BB, you know nothing is sacred on Letterman, especially if Nathan Lane is a guest. I remember when Jake Gyllenhaal was on Leno and Leno asked him, Jake, how he felt about people parodying BBM, Jake, said "Bring it on!" I think you just have to lighten up -- and as Jake said, Bring it on. They apparently did a parody of BBM on Saturday Night Live, which I didn't see, but did hear much about it.
Yes, but SNL makes fun of everyone, and could be expected to do so with BBM. With NL, it felt like being stabbed in the back by a family member.
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Well BB, you know nothing is sacred on Letterman, especially if Nathan Lane is a guest. I remember when Jake Gyllenhaal was on Leno and Leno asked him, Jake, how he felt about people parodying BBM, Jake, said "Bring it on!" I think you just have to lighten up -- and as Jake said, Bring it on. They apparently did a parody of BBM on Saturday Night Live, which I didn't see, but did hear much about it.
Yes, but SNL makes fun of everyone, and could be expected to do so with BBM. With NL, it felt like being stabbed in the back by a family member.
Why because Nathan is gay? If he were straight, would you all be as angry? Why? He's still a comedian.
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Why because Nathan is gay? If he were straight, would you all be as angry? Why? He's still a comedian.
Exactly. We finally had a first-tier major motion picture that treated a relationship between two men with respect and dignity, and everyone in the gay community stood to benefit from it. If he were straight, we would have expected him to poke fun. But for an openly gay comedian to do that just to get laughs, knowing as a movie actor what was at stake (i.e., the viewing audience for the movie), was in exceedingly poor taste, IMO, and I'm not the only one who felt that way.
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Why because Nathan is gay? If he were straight, would you all be as angry? Why? He's still a comedian.
Exactly. We finally had a first-tier major motion picture that treated a relationship between two men with respect and dignity, and everyone in the gay community stood to benefit from it. If he were straight, we would have expected him to poke fun. But for an openly gay comedian to do that just to get laughs, knowing as a movie actor what was at stake (i.e., the viewing audience for the movie), was in exceedingly poor taste, IMO, and I'm not the only one who felt that way.
Ok, maybe NL touched a nerve in the gay community -- did all gays react that way? I am Catholic, and there have been many jokes/parodys about Catholics and the church. Even on the Forum in photo captionings -- the Pope lately remember? But I don't take it personally -- some may do so -- but that bit with NL is what 6 months ago? Let it rest. Sometimes humor is the best medicine and in some perverse way might make people pay more attention, or at least make them think twice about their responses. Nothing is sacred in show biz, ya know?
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Oh, I know. But I'm still never going to watch another NL movie. ;D
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Oh, I know. But I'm still never going to watch another NL movie. ;D
Awwwww, but watch NL in "Mouse Hunt" and "Bird Cage" -- if you haven't, you may change your mind --- if you have, laugh again!
Cheers,
Nikki
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The difference between gays and Catholics, and their place in society, should be obvious. But if it isn't, one group's place is secure in society and jokes are usually about things they "do" as opposed to who they "are." The other group (gay) is still oppressed and even ridiculed by many. Big difference.
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and that is quite a point...
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The difference between gays and Catholics, and their place in society, should be obvious. But if it isn't, one group's place is secure in society and jokes are usually about things they "do" as opposed to who they "are." The other group (gay) is still oppressed and even ridiculed by many. Big difference.
Maybe so, but you are being a bit didactic: what is obvious is that both are ridiculed. Maybe for different reasons but Catholics are also ridiculed by many. Jokes about what one does (by do I guess you mean worship -- not too clear there) can hurt just as deeply. If you have been following the pedophile scandal in the church, you no doubt have heard how the clergy have been pilloried and yes the gay issue has come up here. No their place is not always obvious and the jokes continue.
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Wow, this must be "Let's see how far we can get off topic" day. Every thread I'm following is doing the same!
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Wow, this must be "Let's see how far we can get off topic" day. Every thread I'm following is doing the same!
Aint it the truth!! I expected a nice quiet little dialogue on this thread -- and I get sucked into a sociological/theological discussion!! Run for your lives -- the mods are coming -- the mods are coming!!
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Aint it the truth!! I expected a nice quiet little dialogue on this thread -- and I get sucked into a sociological/theological discussion!! Run for your lives -- the mods are coming -- the mods are coming!!
And they have very big sticks! :D
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Hi, I'm no mod-- but this all seems very proulxian to me! persecution, big sticks-- fodder for Annie.
Having grown up catholic, on the one hand, female on the other, I guess I can say certain degrees of unfairness abound.
Then of course, there are the raised-Catholic gay men... who might relate to both sides of this debate.
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Hi, I'm no mod-- but this all seems very proulxian to me! persecution, big sticks-- fodder for Annie.
Having grown up catholic, on the one hand, female on the other, I guess I can say certain degrees of unfairness abound.
Then of course, there are the raised-Catholic gay men... who might relate to both sides of this debate.
Well, howdy! You can be sure on this Forum there are always those on both sides of everything!!
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-It's a stretch, but that youtube item was posted ancilliary to AP's work. How are we supposed to spread it, when someone who should know better discredits arguably her finest piece as it opens in a theater? TV reaches millions, a book reaches ONE
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-It's a stretch, but that youtube item was posted ancilliary to AP's work. How are we supposed to spread it, when someone who should know better discredits arguably her finest piece as it opens in a theater? TV reaches millions, a book reaches ONE
Are we still talking about NL?
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Maybe so, but you are being a bit didactic: what is obvious is that both are ridiculed. Maybe for different reasons but Catholics are also ridiculed by many. Jokes about what one does (by do I guess you mean worship -- not too clear there) can hurt just as deeply. If you have been following the pedophile scandal in the church, you no doubt have heard how the clergy have been pilloried and yes the gay issue has come up here. No their place is not always obvious and the jokes continue.
By "do" I mean the constant jokes about the sexual misdeeds of the priests and their altar boys. That has more to do with what they are "doing" by choice than rather than who they are. Still two very different things. There are some who equate pedophilia in the church with homosexuality but that is an observation made of ignorance. Actually I think jokes about who one "is" hurt more deeply, because there is not a thing any of us can do about who we are, except maybe hide in the closet like Ennis, and we know where that leads. Christians, including Catholics, in America are not an oppressed group of people (despite what many of them think), they are free to live and love as they wish without fear of recrimination, not so for gay people. And for the record, I am a Catholic, and gay.
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Okay Sky, I see where you're coming from. I was simply trying to draw an analogy. I think we're getting really OT here, and this dialogue is obviously not serving any purpose. Yes, it's harder to be gay than Catholic, but being gay now is not like it was in the past -- there are more role models for young gays, and hopefully the closets are not remaining firmly shut.
I wish you peace and love.
Nikki
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Okay Sky, I see where you're coming from. I was simply trying to draw an analogy. I think we're getting really OT here, and this dialogue is obviously not serving any purpose. Yes, it's harder to be gay than Catholic, but being gay now is not like it was in the past -- there are more role models for young gays, and hopefully the closets are not remaining firmly shut.
I wish you peace and love.
Nikki
Peace and Love right back at ya, Nikki. It does seem OT at first glance, but Annie got us thinking and talking about the nature of homophobia didn't she? So maybe we weren't so OT.
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Ok, I'm jumping in; I've shut up long enough about the NL posts the last few days....
I think NL is protesting too much; He found safety in numbers by the public lampooning, allowing himself to wink-wink with the 'moral majority' and perhaps conserve his movie-going audience-or so he thinks.
He himself plays farcical gay characters, to so long as he can keep people from thinking seriously about it, he won't-or so he thinks-come under any 'serious' judgemental scrutiny-execept, the idiot, by the gazillions of gay people that my have formed a core group of his fans! Dolt.
And I do think gay oppression is far more mortally sinful than nearly any other kind; human beings' basic foundations are being rejected. That is what differentiates the story of Brokeback: In these extramarital affairs, we know, on this forum, that the cheating is secondary to the love for one another, because society, in a hetero relationship, would condemn the act, but not necessarily the person. In a gay affair, both the act and the people are condemned-and the latter, not for just their illicit behavior; but for who they are. The straights can get a divorce; the gays can get the tire iron.
and BTW-I am a straight Catholic female, who spares no one in her quest for the perfect photocaption-but I would never laugh in public at this tragic story. The gay jokes are usually not; shame on those who think ANYTHING GOES(-except in photocaps, of course. :D)
self-edited for controversy-
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Not all Catholic jokes are based in truth -- some are -- but they can sting just as badly.
This has really become OT, and I swore to myself I would not get sucked into it again. This is why I hate to get sucked into these diatribes on any other threads -- it's a no-win situation, and causes hurt feelings and (not that we are) a good way to lose friends. Maybe it's a good thing this is virtual reality and not RL. Ha! I will say no more on this issue -- if feelings are hurt about NL, Catholics, etc. so bit it.
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Not all Catholic jokes are based in truth -- some are -- but they can sting just as badly.
This has really become OT, and I swore to myself I would not get sucked into it again. This is why I hate to get sucked into these diatribes on any other threads -- it's a no-win situation, and causes hurt feelings and (not that we are) a good way to lose friends. Maybe it's a good thing this is virtual reality and not RL. Ha! I will say no more on this issue -- if feelings are hurt about NL, Catholics, etc. so bit it.
I'll quit with the OT as well; I've just been reading so many posts about NL, and I've tried not to say anything. BTW, my opinion was just that, and many sorries if it hurt; no harm intended.
I lookf forward to talking more about AP! :)
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So, AP, AP, AP....
I know this topic, though on thread, is a titch controversial, and has been touched on before:
Do you think a Brokeback Mtn sequel would be completely ridiculous? I don't see AP agreeing to it, although I am sure she's been asked, unless mucho dollars are involved, and perhaps not even then.
If she were to do it, what direction do you think she'd go? I'm not trying to get fan fic in there; just curious as to how you'd see it done, ie novel, short story, Hallmark channel, etc.
I think we can assume someone might try to continue the story...
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If she were to do it, what direction do you think she'd go?
Another cute little bull rider for Ennis, one who's had father problems and is ready to be slaughtered by love? Hmmmmmm..... who could that be I wonder....
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If she were to do it, what direction do you think she'd go?
Another cute little bull rider for Ennis, one who's had father problems and is ready to be slaughtered by love? Hmmmmmm..... who could that be I wonder....
Oh, you are not going where I think are-are you? :o :o :o Ennis would go catatonic...
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Oh I dunno... Ennis could give him a dozy embrace from behind in the chute.... made in heaven if you ask me....
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So, AP, AP, AP....
I know this topic, though on thread, is a titch controversial, and has been touched on before:
Do you think a Brokeback Mtn sequel would be completely ridiculous? I don't see AP agreeing to it, although I am sure she's been asked, unless mucho dollars are involved, and perhaps not even then.
If she were to do it, what direction do you think she'd go? I'm not trying to get fan fic in there; just curious as to how you'd see it done, ie novel, short story, Hallmark channel, etc.
I think we can assume someone might try to continue the story...
Thank you very much for bringing this back on topic. I was not thrilled to see Nathan prancing around in Annie's thread after approximately 24 hours of travel after seeing a sick relative. Yeesh.
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So, AP, AP, AP....
I know this topic, though on thread, is a titch controversial, and has been touched on before:
Do you think a Brokeback Mtn sequel would be completely ridiculous? I don't see AP agreeing to it, although I am sure she's been asked, unless mucho dollars are involved, and perhaps not even then.
If she were to do it, what direction do you think she'd go? I'm not trying to get fan fic in there; just curious as to how you'd see it done, ie novel, short story, Hallmark channel, etc.
I think we can assume someone might try to continue the story...
Oh God, I can't imagine a Moving On! Ennis. No way. I would die. No way. Jack and Ennis forever (in my humble opinion).
Sorry. I'm just a maudlin, incoherent fool re: this topic....
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Sequel? Never. But Brokeback Mountain, one of the finest stories ever, ever written and made into one of the greatest films of all time, must take its place upon the stage. Jack and Ennis will reappear and love through vibrant young actors for ages to come. Their performances will always be measured by this magic mountain that is the film.
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Oh I dunno... Ennis could give him a dozy embrace from behind in the chute.... made in heaven if you ask me....
He'd love it, but could he give Ennis that brilliant charge?
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He'd love it, but could he give Ennis that brilliant charge?
At first I too had my doubts. But then it came to me -- Ennis is a changed man! As we now know, he has been set free of his demons, and can love. He is open to people, and new experiences. Perhaps not the same brilliant charge.... but, who knows? After finding the shirts -- maybe Ennis is a man who can live life to the fullest! Even grow a moustache and accumulate tatoos.
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I posted somewhere (can't find it) that Annie said BBM was part of a group of stories about love she had written, but not published. That said, I don't think another story about Ennis would fly IMO.
Don't think Ennis is a changed man because he was willing to go to his daughter's wedding. That was a one-shot deal. The love of his life is dead by homophobic SOBs -- he is still grieving at the end of the movie. In the book ending (which I've said countless times I prefer) he dreams of Jack -- not looking for a new life -- is even considering moving in with his married daughter until he gets a new job. Book ending shows, BTW, that he is close to his daughter, and apparently has a bond with her. It doesn't mean he is a changed man.
Just for kicks, say there was a sequal: what about writers -- don't think Annie would do it -- don't think McMurtry and Ossana would write script -- Ang is booked up for years ahead -- Ennis would have to be much older. I can think of only one guy who could play an older Ennis -- Robert Duvall, and he is now much too old, but a 50 yr. old Duvall could have done it -- remember him in the "Lonesome Dove" mini-series? Also, if Ennis was to find a new "love" I think it would be too corny! It wouldn't have the pathos, the poignance, the love-lost tragedy. I would always be comparing the new one to Jack Twist.
My opinion is: LET BE, LET BE!!
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Thank you very much for bringing this back on topic. I was not thrilled to see Nathan prancing around in Annie's thread after approximately 24 hours of travel after seeing a sick relative. Yeesh.
Michael, mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa!
Nikki
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So, AP, AP, AP....
I know this topic, though on thread, is a titch controversial, and has been touched on before:
Do you think a Brokeback Mtn sequel would be completely ridiculous? I don't see AP agreeing to it, although I am sure she's been asked, unless mucho dollars are involved, and perhaps not even then.
If she were to do it, what direction do you think she'd go? I'm not trying to get fan fic in there; just curious as to how you'd see it done, ie novel, short story, Hallmark channel, etc.
I think we can assume someone might try to continue the story...
Thank you very much for bringing this back on topic. I was not thrilled to see Nathan prancing around in Annie's thread after approximately 24 hours of travel after seeing a sick relative. Yeesh.
Michael, since I helped keep it OT, I thought it only right I try to pull it back in!! Mea culpa, as well.
CSI
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I personally would like to see his journey into the twilight in the backdrop of social change; ie will he ever get over the tire iron? His dreams are working it thru for him...Annie supposedly got her idea from watching the aging cowboy in the pool room, fixated on the younger players, and wondered if he was a victim of rural homophobia, internalized....We could obviously guess that might be where Ennis would wind up-but Ennis did have the experience of a great love to sustain his soul.
I don't think Annie is 'done' with this topic yet; it is obviously something that bothers her; homosexual love is in pretty much every one of her stories, along with all of her hetero tragedies; her acknowledgement, no doubt, of the reality of everyday life, that society is finally coming to terms with, a simple fact of life it has wanted to brush under the carpet in the past.
Her literature is an important tool for this, and I'd love to see her do more with it.
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CSI, that's why I'm wondering what the group of stories about love she was mentioning -- I've got to find that quote!
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In an interview in the "Bookslut"in 2005, Annie had this to say about BBM: ...Actually that story was to be one of three or four stories about offbeat and difficult love situations, but I never wrote any of the others. I just wrote that one....I had to get away from it. It just got too intense and too much on my mind...And also because I conceived of that particular story as one of a set of stories. As it is right now, it stands out rather like a sore thumb in comparison to the rest of the work, so I think I have to do those other stories.
How great will that be if Annie does do those other stories? And what kind of "offbeat and difficult love situations" does she have in mind I wonder?
Yea! Found the quote about Annie's conception of a set of stories about "offbeat and difficult love situations." Apparently she didn't write it at that point of the interview. That would be something to look forward to, dontcha think?
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Oh, you know it. I think we talked once before about what we'd like to see her do, in genera. I'd love to see her outdoorwoman's take on a kind of pent-up, cosmopolitan relationship. I think her rural wisdom in such a setting would be interesting....
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Oh, you know it. I think we talked once before about what we'd like to see her do, in genera. I'd love to see her outdoorwoman's take on a kind of pent-up, cosmopolitan relationship. I think her rural wisdom in such a setting would be interesting....
Oh yea, especially since her women can be as tough as men. Maybe a Lureen-type character, but with an updated Texas-style persona -- runs a ranch on her own, and falls in love with the ranch foreman who graduated from Texas A&M with a secret past (his secret love affair with a young ranch hand who died years ago). Whoa, call in the slashinestas!
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So, AP, AP, AP....
I know this topic, though on thread, is a titch controversial, and has been touched on before:
Do you think a Brokeback Mtn sequel would be completely ridiculous? I don't see AP agreeing to it, although I am sure she's been asked, unless mucho dollars are involved, and perhaps not even then.
If she were to do it, what direction do you think she'd go? I'm not trying to get fan fic in there; just curious as to how you'd see it done, ie novel, short story, Hallmark channel, etc.
I think we can assume someone might try to continue the story...
There are rumors that she wrote an unpublished Ennis Story, Ennis after Jack. The yes or no has never really been substantiated or repudiated. There is one way to know whether a sequel would be NOT idiotic, and that would be to know if she:
1--wrote another story
She's a writer who was obsessed by the characters.Because of that, I find it VERY plausible that she wrote an unpublished sequel--look at Bad Dirt, she uses many characters over and over again.
The way to figure this out is:
2-- Ask her in person
Which I think i will do lol.
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Oh, you know it. I think we talked once before about what we'd like to see her do, in genera. I'd love to see her outdoorwoman's take on a kind of pent-up, cosmopolitan relationship. I think her rural wisdom in such a setting would be interesting....
Oh yea, especially since her women can be as tough as men. Maybe a Lureen-type character, but with an updated Texas-style persona -- runs a ranch on her own, and falls in love with the ranch foreman who graduated from Texas A&M with a secret past (his secret love affair with a young ranch hand who died years ago). Whoa, call in the slashinestas!
Read bad Dirt. She has just such a character in one of the stories
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Read "Bad Dirt" when it first came out -- don't remember that one -- which story please?
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The Indian Wars Refought.
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Yeah, she does have a lot of Lureen in her, doesn't she.
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Thank you very much for bringing this back on topic. I was not thrilled to see Nathan prancing around in Annie's thread after approximately 24 hours of travel after seeing a sick relative. Yeesh.
Michael, mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa!
Nikki
Ego te absolvo Nikki!
[I think it was only venial anyway.... ;)]
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Don't blame poor Nikki Michael, blame me! I was the dweeb who posted it. The frustration made me do it lol---how do we spread the message of AP's BBM when a gay performer does THAT? OT actually, and my responsibility..sometimes it's good to go OT sometimes it's not. The entire sheep and jack's virginity discussion in another thread was a very funny welcome one lololol ............NL was not
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Don't blame poor Nikki Michael, blame me! I was the dweeb who posted it. The frustration made me do it lol---how do we spread the message of AP's BBM when a gay performer does THAT? OT actually, and my responsibility..sometimes it's good to go OT sometimes it's not. The entire sheep and jack's virginity discussion in another thread was a very funny welcome one lololol ............NL was not
Yet ANOTHER confession! Annie would truly appreciate the angst, I'm sure. ;D Hmmm...all this makes me wonder if Loyal Blood came across Father Flanagan's boystown in his wanderings.
And don't worry, Jack. Nikki and I are great friends here - no harm no foul there. Now...annie, annie, annie.... ;D
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I read somewhere that Annie said "they're not coming back, I have other things to write" regarding Jack and Ennis, so unless she changes her mind....... Then I also read where Diana O. said she thought Annie had a story "lying around somewhere" about Ennis after Jack. So, who knows. For me, the only way a sequel would work is with Jack in it, and how can that be since he died in the BBM. Then again, in real life, there are gay people who walk away from their lives as they knew it to start over, usually as a reaction to family rejection etc. Not saying that happens a lot but it has. How's that for a unique life experience. By walking away I don't just mean avoiding family, I mean packing up and leaving without a hint to anyone of their whereabouts. I knew one such guy though I think he eventually made some contact. Sounds dramatic enough for Annie, if you ask me, lol.
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ANNIE PROULX is to be on a panel called COWBOY MYTHS/COWBOY REALITIES on Saturday, October 21st. The University of Wyoming at Casper is hosting a writers conference (See equalitystatebookfest.com/events.php (http://equalitystatebookfest.com/events.php)) from Oct. 19th through the 21st.
David Rombtvedt, the Poet Laureate of Wyoming, is moderating the panel. There will be a question and answer period after the panelists speak. David tells me we are welcome to ask about Brokeback. Maybe some of our mountain folk members can go...I know the hour is late for making plans.
Location: Nicolaysen Art Museum, Casper, Wyoming. 2:15 PM to 3:15 PM. October 21st.
In addition, there will be a free showing of BROKEBACK MOUNTAIN on October 19th, starting at 1:00 PM in the Iris Stadium Theater.
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ANNIE PROULX is to be on a panel called COWBOY MYTHS/COWBOY REALITIES on Saturday, October 21st. The University of Wyoming at Casper is hosting a writers conference (See equalitystatebookfest.com/events.php (http://equalitystatebookfest.com/events.php)) from Oct. 19th through the 21st.
David Rombtvedt, the Poet Laureate of Wyoming, is moderating the panel. There will be a question and answer period after the panelists speak. David tells me we are welcome to ask about Brokeback. Maybe some of our mountain folk members can go...I know the hour is late for making plans.
Location: Nicolaysen Art Museum, Casper, Wyoming. 2:15 PM to 3:15 PM. October 21st.
In addiction, there will be a free showing of BROKEBACK MOUNTAIN on October 19th, starting at 1:00 PM in the Iris Stadium Theater.
In addiction? typo I assume, but a funny one. I wonder if there will a podcast of this conference.
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Never could spell.. About all I can read is Hamley's saddle catalog!
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That's ok we already knew it was NOT a typo lol
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Never could spell.. About all I can read is Hamley's saddle catalog!
:D :D :D
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ANNIE PROULX is to be on a panel called COWBOY MYTHS/COWBOY REALITIES on Saturday, October 21st. The University of Wyoming at Casper is hosting a writers conference (See equalitystatebookfest.com/events.php (http://equalitystatebookfest.com/events.php)) from Oct. 19th through the 21st.
David Rombtvedt, the Poet Laureate of Wyoming, is moderating the panel. There will be a question and answer period after the panelists speak. David tells me we are welcome to ask about Brokeback. Maybe some of our mountain folk members can go...I know the hour is late for making plans.
Location: Nicolaysen Art Museum, Casper, Wyoming. 2:15 PM to 3:15 PM. October 21st.
In addiction, there will be a free showing of BROKEBACK MOUNTAIN on October 19th, starting at 1:00 PM in the Iris Stadium Theater.
This panel sounds like something perfect for Larry McMurtry -- he's big on cowboy myths, etc. Wonder if he was invited? What a panel that would be!
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ANNIE PROULX is to be on a panel called COWBOY MYTHS/COWBOY REALITIES on Saturday, October 21st. The University of Wyoming at Casper is hosting a writers conference (See equalitystatebookfest.com/events.php (http://equalitystatebookfest.com/events.php)) from Oct. 19th through the 21st.
David Rombtvedt, the Poet Laureate of Wyoming, is moderating the panel. There will be a question and answer period after the panelists speak. David tells me we are welcome to ask about Brokeback. Maybe some of our mountain folk members can go...I know the hour is late for making plans.
Location: Nicolaysen Art Museum, Casper, Wyoming. 2:15 PM to 3:15 PM. October 21st.
In addiction, there will be a free showing of BROKEBACK MOUNTAIN on October 19th, starting at 1:00 PM in the Iris Stadium Theater.
This panel sounds like something perfect for Larry McMurtry -- he's big on cowboy myths, etc. Wonder if he was invited? What a panel that would be!
Oops! Forgot to indicate that it's a Wyoming writers' conference...so don't guess McMutry was invited.
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No need for spoilers -- you can get more by reading the book jacket.
Constantly surprised at what I get out of re-reading Annie's work. Read "Heart Songs" a few years ago; started it again, and am enjoying it even more. This time it's rural working class New England. Tales of the bizarre coupled with greed and revenge -- it keeps the reader going. Some of my favorites: On the Antler; A Country Killing; In the Pit; Heart Songs, and Run of Bad Luck Some of the characters are repulsive and venal, even down right evil. It's early Annie, and just as evocative as her later collections.
In "Close Range," besides her masterpiece, BBM, some of my favorites were: The Mud Below (with a bull riding character I think of as the dark side of Jack Twist); People in Hell Just Want a Drink of Water -- dark and violent; The Blood Bay -- bizarre and grotesque; and one of my favorites, The Half-Skinned Deer based on an Icelandic folk tale -- follows an old man driving cross-country to his brother's funeral.
Wouldn't call them bedtime reading, they'd probably keep the reader up. Annie, herself, says about "Close Range" stories: The elements of unreality, the fantastic and improbable, color all of these stories as they color real life. One could say the same for "Heart Songs."
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Oh,I'll have to read Heartsongs, Nikki, thanks.
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When are we doing my favorite AP collection:
Bad Dirt-Wyoming Tales II ??/
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When are we doing my favorite AP collection:
Bad Dirt-Wyoming Tales II ??/
Should I open a different thread for that (when you do it eventually)?
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o wow michael, however the group wants it!
I love that book!
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Well, B_1 has already fed us a few morsels about AP from the Caspar forum- I can't wait til we can discuss some of it here. When are you and Ellen going to post, Jack??
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not too long, still writing it up. what a week or so?
Hey, katrina got Bad Dirt signed for me. Wasn't that cool of her? i got BBM signed.
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.... and one of my favorites, The Half-Skinned Deer [/i] based on an Icelandic folk tale -- follows an old man driving cross-country to his brother's funeral.
Great story!! Has an interesting woman character as well, and a cameo by a celebrity.
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Well, B_1 has already fed us a few morsels about AP from the Caspar forum- I can't wait til we can discuss some of it here. When are you and Ellen going to post, Jack??
Well, unfortunately although we have extensive notes, we have found that our brains have turned to mush. We think it has to do with the intensity of the experience. Annie Proulx sat eight feet away from us -- or was it 7 1/2? We are not being coy. We are in a strange state of paralysis, I think.
But I've set a deadline, we have to have something by Friday because it is going in the Daily Sheet or bust. And that will be my farewell Daily Sheet, what a way to go!
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Yeah...what she said .
lol
mush
But Friday sounds good. Just ignorin it for a day will do the trick
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Awwww....come here, poor babies, now you put your pens, pencils and cwayons away, and you go off an get massages, go out to dinner, get some sleep-and you just forget about the whiny neurotics like me that hafta know NOW......I can wait, trust me. I've already made it all up in my head, anyway! :D :P ;)
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When are we doing my favorite AP collection:
Bad Dirt-Wyoming Tales II ??/
Should I open a different thread for that (when you do it eventually)?
Michael, if you open another book thread, I'm going to go stark, raving!! lol Already dropped out of Close Range -- it became too intense. So many books, so little time! Why not just discuss Proulx at random in this thread as we have been? That's my opinion FWIT -- don't anyone send me any hate posts -- to each his own.
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I LOVE the Close Range thread. (except when I don't have time to read the story at hand). There are some who are waiting for us to get on to Bad Dirt except I kind of envisioned we would just go on in the Close Range thread, how naive is THAT? Can a thread be re-named? to - like- Annie Proulx short story thread? Then one day we can do Heart Songs.
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don't anyone send me any hate posts
Well you're a long way from hateful so you don't have much to worry about! :-*
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don't anyone send me any hate posts
Well you're a long way from hateful so you don't have much to worry about! :-*
Is that good or bad, Dal?
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I LOVE the Close Range thread. (except when I don't have time to read the story at hand). There are some who are waiting for us to get on to Bad Dirt except I kind of envisioned we would just go on in the Close Range thread, how naive is THAT? Can a thread be re-named? to - like- Annie Proulx short story thread? Then one day we can do Heart Songs.
Yes a thread for Annie Proux short stories seems really appropriate for this forum. And the conversation has been very rich.
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PIA, do you mean a thread for each Poulx collection? Why not just keep it at random as in this thread? I'd much prefer to comment on an all inclusive Proulx as herein. I found Close Range to become too intense -- couldn't keep up with the digging and delving on one single passage -- leads to beating a dead horse. By including all the collections under one umbrella in this Proulx thread, and discussing them at random, one can bring up unexpected topics -- a general discussion so to speak. Otherwise why have an Annie Proulx thread? FWIT IMHO.
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PIA, do you mean a thread for each Poulx collection? Why not just keep it at random as in this thread? I'd much prefer to comment on an all inclusive Proulx as herein. I found Close Range to become too intense -- couldn't keep up with the digging and delving on one single passage -- leads to beating a dead horse. By including all the collections under one umbrella in this Proulx thread, and discussing them at random, one can bring up unexpected topics -- a general discussion so to speak. Otherwise why have an Annie Proulx thread? FWIT IMHO.
Hi Nikki wherever you are! (eating well, I hope and weather good - still in Italy I assume or maybe not!)
No I mean an Annie Proux short story thread. Discussing the stories, one by one seeing how they relate to the larger work, and sometimes taking on a few short ones at a time as we will be doing next week. I didnt feel "beating a dead horse" at all, but a deeper engagement with the writer, the writing, the language, and the other folks on the thread in a way that is - well, you say "intense" - maybe that word's good enough. The insights of otheres have been so much fun. Also a process of illumination, as her themes UNFOLD - they are announced, and then there are variations that explode the meanings.
We could have done this, with, for instance, Ed White - Im reading his bio of Proust, now, and have better understanding of his own aims and passions as a writer.
As you say: FWIW
cheers
pia
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PIA, do you mean a thread for each Poulx collection? Why not just keep it at random as in this thread? I'd much prefer to comment on an all inclusive Proulx as herein. I found Close Range to become too intense -- couldn't keep up with the digging and delving on one single passage -- leads to beating a dead horse. By including all the collections under one umbrella in this Proulx thread, and discussing them at random, one can bring up unexpected topics -- a general discussion so to speak. Otherwise why have an Annie Proulx thread? FWIT IMHO.
Hi Nikki wherever you are! (eating well, I hope and weather good - still in Italy I assume or maybe not!)
No I mean an Annie Proux short story thread. Discussing the stories, one by one seeing how they relate to the larger work, and sometimes taking on a few short ones at a time as we will be doing next week. I didnt feel "beating a dead horse" at all, but a deeper engagement with the writer, the writing, the language, and the other folks on the thread in a way that is - well, you say "intense" - maybe that word's good enough. The insights of otheres have been so much fun. Also a process of illumination, as her themes UNFOLD - they are announced, and then there are variations that explode the meanings.
We could have done this, with, for instance, Ed White - Im reading his bio of Proust, now, and have better understanding of his own aims and passions as a writer.
As you say: FWIW
cheers
pia
Flew in last night from Venice.
Well, I guess we all look at things differently -- sometimes there can be too much exchange or illumination as you call it. I can engage just as deeply with the writer discussing plot and character and yes, comparing stories. My point is tht we have this Proulx thread for comparisons and "illumination" -- so if there is a thread for each short story where will it all end!! I had another word for intense -- how about veering off track or losing the track! Well, I guess we agree to disagree, non!!
FWIT.
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Well, I guess we all look at things differently . . . I had another word for intense -- how about veering off track or losing the track! !!
FWIT.
Ah! Further "illumination"
And I figured you wuz sore about them Crisco jokes. :D :D :D
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Well, I guess we all look at things differently . . . I had another word for intense -- how about veering off track or losing the track! !!
FWIT.
Ah! Further "illumination"
And I figured you wuz sore about them Crisco jokes. :D :D :D
Don't understand - to what you are referring -- please explain? What illumination here? Keep it up -- u just might suck me back in!!! :D
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Hi, Nikki! Was wondering where you were; How's Venice?
Re Close Range: the Mero discussion was making me feel like I was in 1st grade, trying to read Latin.....can't wait for the next story.... :D :D ;D
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Hi, Nikki! Was wondering where you were; How's Venice?
Re Close Range: the Mero discussion was making me feel like I was in 1st grade, trying to read Latin.....can't wait for the next story.... :D :D ;D
What you said! lol
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Hi, Nikki! Was wondering where you were; How's Venice?
Re Close Range: the Mero discussion was making me feel like I was in 1st grade, trying to read Latin.....can't wait for the next story.... :D :D ;D
What you said! lol
Oh Lord you guys whatcha talking about? I was in there, slinging around short words w/ anglo-saxon roots, a bull in a china shop but the blue dishes got to break anyway. What I mean is, if I can do it, then anyone can! (and you two better than most)
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Hi, Nikki! Was wondering where you were; How's Venice?
Re Close Range: the Mero discussion was making me feel like I was in 1st grade, trying to read Latin.....can't wait for the next story.... :D :D ;D
What you said! lol
Oh Lord you guys whatcha talking about? I was in there, slinging around short words w/ anglo-saxon roots, a bull in a china shop but the blue dishes got to break anyway. What I mean is, if I can do it, then anyone can! (and you two better than most)
hi, Ellen.
There were obscure references aplenty-I just got out of the rhythm I guess... ;D ;D ;D But thanks for the compliment!!
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Dave has an important announcement about the forum, which he asks all members to read:
http://davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=18085.msg602098#msg602098
We have set up a thread to discuss the situation. That discussion thread is linked from the post directly below the message from Dave. Follow the above link and you'll get to both.
Thanks
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An announcement from the moderators about the slowdown problem that we’ve been experiencing at various times, centering from about 9:00 am until about 12:00 noon GMT:
The administration has been working extremely hard to solve the slow down issue that has been plaguing the forum for some months now. It has been determined that to solve this we will have to change the host company of the forum. The new host server has now been contracted with by Dave as of today.
We are proceeding rapidly now and hope to have the conversion complete within a few weeks at the latest and hopefully much sooner. We will keep you (members) apprised. Please look for announcements in the Newsbox. Some changes will likely come up suddenly--that is the nature of computer conversions, so it is impossible to know before we test whether something will go flawlessly and take two hours, or uncover thorny issues that will take days. The testing process is being started. This will not affect the forum at this point.
So taking this into consideration, we don't want to give you timeframes that are unrealistic. As soon as we finish a stage, we'll proceed immediately to the next, and the exact changeover will likely come on very short notice to you (members). We will post this changeover time in the Newsbox as well as in the individual threads, and will give you as much lead time as we can manage. This will enable us to end the slowdown ASAP.
Thank you for your patience.
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There is a very interesting question regarding Annie and female characters being posed over in the 'Close Range' thread:
http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=12416.msg694477#msg694477
Any readers here might be interested and want to join in.
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Here is a quote from the Close Range thread that seemed very appropriate to repost (with permission, of course) regarding women in Annie Proulx's work over here:
For the record, though, she said something pertinent in her 1999 presentation at the New York Writer's Institute. She announced that she would read "A Lonely Coast," an exception to most of her stories:
The reason why is because I’m often asked, mostly by women, "Why don’t you write about women?" And, of course, I do write about women, but I’m writing in a very often a rural setting, a milieu where men’s work overrides front-and-center what women do, and the woman’s place in this kind of world is what my... what Robert Smithson, the artist, referred to as "absent presence," very nice concept. He used to photograph a rock in place and then remove the rock and photograph the hole the rock was in. That’s an example of absent presence. So, women are absently present in all of the stories that I write. I almost never write from a woman character’s point-of-view or in the first person. And, the story I’m going to read tonight, "A Lonely Coast," is both of those things.
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Rosewood has suggested I kick off a discussion here about BBM as being written by a woman-Annie Proulx.
We were musing over how interesting it is that a woman wrote this, and how there are telltale signs if you will.
Some questions might be:
1)How is her perspective as a woman-not that she has no other-impact how we're are told what were are told about the characters?
2)Do you see any bias from a female perspective? How does it work to the benefit of or detraction from the story?
3)How does what you know about Annie influence how you interpret what you are reading, if it does?
Just some kick off questions; feel free to add, talk bout any theory of Feminism; or western iconic imagery thru a woman's eyes; or your thoughts about moving in the arena of male sexuality from a woman's perspective-anything of interest in this vein. :)
I'll be back..gotta drive home.
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Rosewood has suggested I kick off a discussion here about BBM as being written by a woman-Annie Proulx.
Great idea CSI - I can't wait to see how it develops!
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Rosewood has suggested I kick off a discussion here about BBM as being written by a woman-Annie Proulx.
Great idea CSI - I can't wait to see how it develops!
Me, too. There might be some more new stuff to learn from this story after all...I might kick it off myself.
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Rosewood proposed that she feels it is evident to her that the book is written by a woman, without knowing it. I would love to hear some of her elaboration on that...
Meanwhile, there are some things I noticed:
The physical descriptions: Caliper legs; bucked teeth; weighty haunch; cave-chestedness.
There is a sense of meaning behind these descriptions-they add to our sense of the personalities. It is said women are better at landmarks than directions, generally speaking. I see Annie taking a physical landmark and making it a cornerstone of her communications to us about the characters; 'Turn at the 76 station' rather than follow 2 blocks south and 2 east. She does not tell us every action Ennis has taken to show us he has had a rough, heart-breaking life. She just tells us he is cave-chested. The place where his heart resides. And I think she does it to express something quickly and in a way we can understand, without us needing to knowi his background. She gives us an intuitive sense about him. with her description....does anyone see that as a particularly feminine skillset? I am thinking of other novels-but not recalling such an indirect suggestion as the caved- in chest relating to his deprivation, both economic and emotional.
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Rosewood has suggested I kick off a discussion here about BBM as being written by a woman-Annie Proulx.
We were musing over how interesting it is that a woman wrote this, and how there are telltale signs if you will.
Some questions might be:
1)How is her perspective as a woman-not that she has no other-impact how were are told what were are told about the characters?
2)Do you see any bias from a female perspective? How does it work to the benefit of or detraction from the story?
3)How does what you know about Annie influence how you interpret what you are reading, if it does?
Just some kick off questions; feel free to add, talk bout any theory of Feminism; or western iconic imagery thru a woman's eyes; or your thoughts about moving in the arena of male sexuality from a woman's perspectctive-anything of interest in this vein. :)
I'll be back..gotta drive home.
Thanks for getting things going over here, CSI!
Been meaning to talk about this aspect of BBM for a while now.
Although the short story is harsher and crueler in its complete lack of sentimentality,
I've been musing as to how much more 'masculine' the film (though it is the more romantic
of the two enterprises) seems in comparison to the short story.
Despite that, I got to thinking about the presence or lack therof of a feminine shadow
i.e. Annie Proulx's obvious guiding hand in the short story. And how little of
it there actually is. Still, that got me to wondering where in the story AP might have revealed
the fact that it was she who'd conceived and written this tale of two gay men.
In case we'd ever had the chance to read BBM without knowing that it was, in fact,
written by a woman - would we be able to tell?
Are there any clues? That's what interested me.
Of course since I knew going in that the story was a woman's creation, there's no way
I can prove that I might NOT have known had I not known. Know what I mean? ;)
But still, it's fun to talk about.
Though AP seems capable of inhabiting the male lives of her character honestly and completely
with hardly a wrong step (I leave it up to men to find the less obvious flubs, since my vision is limited
to the little I know or can guess about men's interior lives) there are still moments when I sense the presence of the feminine hand guiding the story. (Less so in the film, though it was written
by a man AND a woman, it was directed and photographed by men, as we know.)
I sense a woman in the whole idea of poetic retribution.
The continual ominous presence of a looming sense of inevitable Fate.
I don't know why this should seem feminine to me, but it does.
The 'smallness' of the story though it takes place in a HUGE western landscape.
The whole idea of western iconic imagery, especially pertaining to men's perceptions
of their surroundings. The idea that men would internalize certain icons to the point of caricature.
And that we are made to observe this in Jack and Ennis's natures.
A man writing of this might be more detached in his observations.
No, what I mean is that AP observes from the outside how Jack and Ennis use the cowboy
hats and boots and swagger and whatnot to fuel their image of themselves as cowboys and
she USES this to let us know about their interior lives. But always in a gentle way.
Never actually ridiculing Jack and Ennis.
A man writing of this would perhaps not have focused
on the 'reason why' Jack and Ennis needed this pretense.
A man might not have hesitated to use ridicule to make similar points.
A different approach.
Other things that strike me as showing a woman's hand:
The intuitive feminine understanding of why Alma would NOT confront Ennis
immediately upon seeing the kiss at the top (or bottom) of the stairs.
The 'gun going off' exclamation which seems something a woman might THINK a boy
might utter under those conditions. Of course this could come from her own personal knowledge,
in which case, I have nothing to say except that it still seems contrived. UNLESS she was trying to
be funny in that one moment when NOTHING a person says can be held against them. :D
Now THAT, conversely, might be considered a masculine thing.
Don't ask.
Some of her adjectives as well, such as 'wavy' hair, seem a bit feminized.
But maybe I quibble. I probably do. Because, on the whole, this is the best male point
of view writing done by a woman that I've ever read. Let me stress that I am NOT finding
fault. I am just musing out loud. So to speak.
Something else that hit me about the story almost right off the bat.
The fact that the 'guiding hand' seems enamored of Ennis Del Mar.
Of course a gay man might have made me sense the same thing.
But a gay man didn't write BBM.
When it comes to the film, Annie Proulx has said that one of the reasons Heath Ledger
so embodies Ennis Del Mar for her, is that he found things in the character that she never
even knew existed. (Or words to that effect.) Not necessarily things she wouldn't know, but
things she couldn't know. That's what I think. That HL immediately zeroed in on things
that a man would instinctively know about a male character.
Jake Gyllenhaal and Ang Lee as well, I shouldn't wonder.
Things that a woman might miss simply because she wouldn't know to look for them.
You know it made me smile that CSI says something about AP's perspective as a woman,
"not that she has NO other".
I say, of course she has no other. She is a woman. How can she be expected to see the
world like a man? That she does it as well as she does at all is a mark of her creative
genius, to my way of thinking. And I am NOT being condescending. There is NOTHING wrong
with being a woman. Hey, I'm one myself. But how can I be expected to have any other
perspective but that of a woman? I can imagine, sure. But KNOW? With one hundred percent
certainty? No.
Not that that would stop me writing from a man's point of view, mind you. ;)
But that plays more to chutzpa on my part than anything else.
My feeling is that AP, though she seems to have had several marriages and much personal
upheaval in her background, genuinely likes men or she could not do what she does.
She could not get into their skins as well as she does without some appreciation of
what being a man might mean. Within her perspective.
So what say you?
Am I totally off the mark?
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nope ;D
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Rosewood,
I'm not feeling very analytical right now but I just LOVED reading your words, above.
I like the direction you're going. ;)
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In an interview with the 'Bookslut' in 2005, the interviewer asked if Proulx's protagonists who are male characters write themselves that way or is it a challenge. SHe replied that in rural communities men are doing the interesting things outside generally -- there is a weight toward the male side. As the oldest of 5 girls and no boys she always wished there had been boys and "because I like men. Men are very interesting to me...challenge has nothing to do with it."
In the Missouri Review in 1999, Poulx she said she listens to ordinary people speaking with one another in bars and stores, in laundromats. Reads bulletin boards, scraps of paper I pick up from the ground...
IMO the above comments illustrate how the authenticity of her characters and dialogue evidence not only her research, but especially her ear for "ordinary people" and how she "inhabits the male lives of her characters so honestly and completely" as Rosewood noted.
She is attuned to the ordinary,and she conveys it so honestly. SHe has a keen ear and a sharp eye -- I wish I didn't know she was a woman when I read BBM the first time it would have been fun to speculate!
This thread is a great idea -- think of the possibilities.
'nite all.
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When I first read BBM I was vaguely aware it was written by a woman, but I was immediately flabbergasted by its authenticity. It seemed to me the author had to have been at some time either a gay man, or she must have grown up on a Wyoming ranch. I was desperate to find out more about her and when I did I was extremely relieved to know her age (because if she had been younger then the extent of genius would have been too discouraging for the remainder of us mortals) --
but to find out that her knowledge of Wyoming, of bull-riding, of sheep-herding and even male sex was all the result of research was challenging and humbling and amazing.
She has also said in interviews that getting the research right, the details, and the local speech is "everything."
So she works harder than most writers of fiction to get it right. And as Nikki pointed out above, she spent time listening to the natives in order to give us authentic-sounding dialogue, while always going out of her way to never write a cliche.
In terms of research, she is the most ambitious writer I have ever encountered, and I trust her completely. I did not detect anything feminine in the story. As for Alma's reaction -- let me pay a similar compliment to Larry McMurtry, and say he somehow managed to get every female exactly right, IMO, in The Last Picture Show. It is amazing in either direction, but it can happen.
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Oh, I agree with you there, Ellen, about Larry McMurtry's female characters in TLPS. He was very intuitive about their emotions.
I remember him saying that in working on BBM (script), he felt more comfortable developing the female characters and his cowriter Diana Ossana did a better job on the men. So it doesn't just depend on personal experience. More research and less "telling your own story" is probably better, in a way, because even if you are a man telling a man's story, or a woman telling a woman's story, you can't tell the same autobiography over and over again. You have to be able to get out of your own point of view.
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there are still moments when I sense the presence of the feminine hand guiding the story. (Less so in the film,
I'm so glad you started this thread; it ought to generate some interesting comments (though not from me ... I already feel out of my depth on this one).
Just wanted to say that I almost NEVER read fiction written by women, but I can't get enough of Annie Proulx's writing ... because she "writes like a man" (there! I said it). But the reality/Fate in her work is SO grim, sometimes too raw, and reading her can be exhausting ... how many other women writers have that effect on people?
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When I first read BBM I was vaguely aware it was written by a woman, but I was immediately flabbergasted by its authenticity. It seemed to me the author had to have been at some time either a gay man, or she must have grown up on a Wyoming ranch. I was desperate to find out more about her and when I did I was extremely relieved to know her age (because if she had been younger then the extent of genius would have been too discouraging for the remainder of us mortals) --
but to find out that her knowledge of Wyoming, of bull-riding, of sheep-herding and even male sex was all the result of research was challenging and humbling and amazing.
She has also said in interviews that getting the research right, the details, and the local speech is "everything."
So she works harder than most writers of fiction to get it right. And as Nikki pointed out above, she spent time listening to the natives in order to give us authentic-sounding dialogue, while always going out of her way to never write a cliche.
In terms of research, she is the most ambitious writer I have ever encountered, and I trust her completely. I did not detect anything feminine in the story. As for Alma's reaction -- let me pay a similar compliment to Larry McMurtry, and say he somehow managed to get every female exactly right, IMO, in The Last Picture Show. It is amazing in either direction, but it can happen.
Oh yeah Ellen - agree totally! A critic said that Annie never manipulates the reader. So true -- I never feel that she sentementalizes her characters or stories, not even the love stories -- her descriptions of sex in BBM like the scenes in the Siesta Motel and FNIT have a gritty description and intensity that remind me of a man's writing (agree with Rosewood) -- the smells of semen, shit, -- Ennis lying spread eagled on the bed -- half tumescent -- don't sound like it was written by a women.
I wondered how much she was influenced by McMurtry -- Commenting on how she trusted him and Diana with the story she said especially Larry McMurtry whose ear and eye for Western America is equaled by none. I would likely have said no to any other screenwriters who approached me on this story. Commenting on McMurtry on the DVD of BBM, I think it was Ossana who said that McM writes women better than she herself.
It occurs to me that both Annie and McM love the land and the people they write about -- this is projected in their work and resonates throughout their stories -- so the need to get it right is primary to both IMO.
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I'm not sure what, if anything, people hope to establish about AP - but there's fun to be had in trying out chunks of her prose at The Gender Genie. It will be interesting to see whether different passages, chosen by different people, hover around the same score. It may prove your point, Rosewood.
(I tested some of my own fic a few years ago, and it came out pretty much as I'd have guessed - on the female side, but not very. I took comfort in the theory that a kind of mental androgyny is good for writers who hope to be read by both women and men... If you too play with fanfic, you'll find self-testing irresistible.)
http://bookblog.net/gender/genie.html
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This is a great thread....I just wish I had something insightful to add. lol! I really never gave much thought about the authors sex. Some of the things written could be taken as a man writing it....pissing in the sink...."guns goin off" and as nikki pointed out...."-- the smells of semen, shit, -- Ennis lying spread eagled on the bed -- half tumescent -- don't sound like it was written by a women." However the beautiful descriptions of the landscape and the settings, the details of what sounds we should hear...you could almost hear them coming from the pages. I think women are very descriptive and just very detaile oriented....more so then men IMO. I feel men (as we can see in the movie) just arent good with feelings, describing how they feel....AP puts so much detail on how Ennis and Jack are feeling....the anguish that they go through. To write a book that can make you cry with just words....had to be written by a woman. lol
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When I first read BBM I was vaguely aware it was written by a woman, but I was immediately flabbergasted by its authenticity. It seemed to me the author had to have been at some time either a gay man, or she must have grown up on a Wyoming ranch. I was desperate to find out more about her and when I did I was extremely relieved to know her age (because if she had been younger then the extent of genius would have been too discouraging for the remainder of us mortals) --
but to find out that her knowledge of Wyoming, of bull-riding, of sheep-herding and even male sex was all the result of research was challenging and humbling and amazing.
She has also said in interviews that getting the research right, the details, and the local speech is "everything."
So she works harder than most writers of fiction to get it right. And as Nikki pointed out above, she spent time listening to the natives in order to give us authentic-sounding dialogue, while always going out of her way to never write a cliche.
In terms of research, she is the most ambitious writer I have ever encountered, and I trust her completely. I did not detect anything feminine in the story. As for Alma's reaction -- let me pay a similar compliment to Larry McMurtry, and say he somehow managed to get every female exactly right, IMO, in The Last Picture Show. It is amazing in either direction, but it can happen.
Oh yeah Ellen - agree totally! A critic said that Annie never manipulates the reader. So true -- I never feel that she sentementalizes her characters or stories, not even the love stories -- her descriptions of sex in BBM like the scenes in the Siesta Motel and FNIT have a gritty description and intensity that remind me of a man's writing (agree with Rosewood) -- the smells of semen, shit, -- Ennis lying spread eagled on the bed -- half tumescent -- don't sound like it was written by a women.
I wondered how much she was influenced by McMurtry -- Commenting on how she trusted him and Diana with the story she said especially Larry McMurtry whose ear and eye for Western America is equaled by none. I would likely have said no to any other screenwriters who approached me on this story. Commenting on McMurtry on the DVD of BBM, I think it was Ossana who said that McM writes women better than she herself.
It occurs to me that both Annie and McM love the land and the people they write about -- this is projected in their work and resonates throughout their stories -- so the need to get it right is primary to both IMO.
I'm thinking that manipulation of the reader is often necessary, especially in genre reading.
Though I believe it is WHEN the reader spots it that it fails to do the job the writer intended.
Having said that, when I read genre fiction I EXPECT a certain amount of manipulation going
in, so it doesn't bother me as much if it is done with finesse.
Again having said that, I don't equate manipulation with one sex or the other, necessarily.
So that would not tip me off that it is a woman writing versus a man.
I agree that Annie Proulx is one of the least sentimental writers working today.
Maybe one of the least sentimental ever.
But that's no real claim to fame.
No guarantee of greatness.
It just happens to blend well with the TYPE of fiction she writes.
In fact, her lack of sentimentality is one of the things that probably helps focus
her in the work she does. Allows her to go directly to the heart of the matter
without much detour.
Of course, a lot of this conversation is moot to begin with, because we're discussing
artistic and possibly linguistic genius. Very few of us can relate, except in vague ways,
with the 'how and the why' of creating such a superb work of art as BBM.
Still, we have temerity.
What the hell.
Let's tawk. As they say in NY.
One of the things that I love about AP's writing is her attitude.
She allows that men are mostly oblivious to certain discomforts AND that this is ingrained
in them. Especially men who inhabit the world she writes about. She NEVER coddles her
characters.
And yes, I am impressed with her devotion to research - just so long as I don't sense
it in the story. And with AP, I don't.
In BBM, things that would appall me (Ok, I admit I'm prejudiced. I'm from the city and am not especially
thrilled at the whole idea of camping and tramping along a road surrounded by 'nature'.
I've said before that my idea of 'nature' is that thing on the other side of the window
as you drive by. I like to wave admiringly. But that's it.) seem perfectly run of the mill to
her characters. Jack and Ennis fit right into this world she's created....No, wait, maybe that's
the point. Maybe AP hasn't created it, rather she's appropriated it. She's made it her own.
There is, now, I suppose an Annie Proulx sort of world we'd recognize if we came upon it
in another book or film or even in our own travels.
And yes, I admit I do find some of her stories strange to the extreme and very difficult
for me to relate to. Not, obviously, BBM. This is probably WHY it IS her masterpiece.
Because ANYONE can relate to it.
I stress again that I am NOT finding fault with Annie Proulx.
BBM is unequalled. I cannot find fault with an author who sometimes chooses to write about
people and locales I can't fathom. That is my problem, not hers, I expect.
I'm merely speculating.
I read both men and women, with probably a heavier emphasis on male authors.
But maybe not. If I check out my book shelves, it looks about fifty fifty.
So I like to think I'm not weighed heavily in favor of one over the other.
There are authors I buy automatically based on many things, talent, style, track records,
previous books, etc. Their sex is the last thing on my mind.
On the whole, I tend to think that women have a harder time writing from a male point of view
then men writing from a woman's. My only evidence is anecdotal. Based purely on the
thousands of books I've read over my lifetime. Mostly because women tend to overcompensate.
They tend to go heavy on the 'ruggedness' and severity of language and images and maybe
most annoying of all, they flubbadub the dialogue.
I detest this. Because to me, it brings the book to a halt. Generally an insurmountable halt.
Unless there's some other spark of brilliance going on that distracts me.
But when a woman does it superbly, when she 'gets' it, like AP does, then I applaud her.
And no, it is NOT like applauding a dog for doing a trick well. Not at all. And please don't think
I'm being condescending in ANY way. I am speaking to talent and style and most of all,
technique. The general appropriateness of what a writer is creating at any given moment.
When you forget the author and focus entirely on the story as we do with AP, then that
is the BEST compliment of all, to may way of thinking.
There's nothing worse, as you know, than authors who keep making appearances in their
own work. Kiss of death.
At least for me.
As for Larry McMurty and Diana Ossana, I know little of their work other than the films I've
seen. I've never read McMurty, but may do in future. I take it for granted that Ossana knows
whereof she speaks when she says that he writes better women than she does. It probably
speaks to his creative intuitiveness and sense of imagination. AND it wouldn't surprise me if
he didn't LOVE women of every shape and form and so feels completely free to interpret
them. AND does so well.
It is the most amazing thing to be around a man who loves women.
It is an intuitive thing that a woman can sense and can't help responding to.
I know someone like this. He is a major, best selling thriller writer who absolutely loves
women and shows it. NOT that he's a womanizer. No, that's not what I'm talking about.
He respects women and is happily married. He is just one of those men who enjoys women
on many levels and loves being around them.
The women in his fiction benefit from this. Though he has never, to my knowledge,
written from a woman's point of view.
I said that AP probably loves men and for us, it shows in the way she writes about them.
She probably 'gets' men more than just about any other woman writer working today.
And it is probably the reason she relates to them as well AND prefers writing from their
point of view. It may also be that for whatever reason, she understands and views the
world from what we would consider a more 'male' point of view.
Of course these are all my own prejudiced opinions based on nothing more than the
fact that I think highly of my own point of view. ;D
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I think there might be an itsy bit of manipulation going on with BBM-note her surprises at the end; I've noted it seems she tells us only when the characters are ready to hear things. Not sure if this makes her seem of a particular gender_I just know it is a neat technique. As James Shamus pointed out, she tickles you under the chin, then rears back and punches you out.
Case in point: the bathroom scene. All we know is Jack is aliented from his dad...not an uncommon thing, typical, can't get it right. Then, we find out what he did to Jack as a child.
Not sure if that tells us anything about gender-based tendencies..??????
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I think there might be an itsy bit of manipulation going on with BBM-note her surprises at the end; I've noted it seems she tells us only when the characters are ready to hear things. Not sure if this makes her seem of a particular gender_I just know it is a neat technique. As James Shamus pointed out, she tickles you under the chin, then rears back and punches you out.
Case in point: the bathroom scene. All we know is Jack is aliented from his dad...not an uncommon thing, typical, can't get it right. Then, we find out what he did to Jack as a child.
Not sure if that tells us anything about gender-based tendencies..??????
It's certainly an interesting technique. Annie at her most brutal is as rough as nearly any other author I've read - regardless of gender. She certainly doesn't seem as sentimental as some of the other women writers I've read (if I think of Alice Sebold or Audrey Niffenegger, for example - Annie seems a lot more pragmatic about the brutality of life).
Has anyone here read 'Bastard Out Of Carolina' by Dorothy Allison? I saw the film that was made from the book and was wondering if anyone saw a similarity between their writing.
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Has anyone here read 'Bastard Out Of Carolina' by Dorothy Allison? I saw the film that was made from the book and was wondering if anyone saw a similarity between their writing.
Funny you should mention that book. I did have it and always meant to read it, never got around to it. If I can still find it, maybe I'll give it a read.
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Michael,
Okay, I found "Bastard Out of Carolina" -- I do have it. The reviews in the beginning say it's good. I read the first page, and can tell you that it's in the first person. From the way it begins, I'd say there was probably some brutality in the narrator's life. But it's much more flowing and lyrical than Annie Proulx's writing, at least IMO. I'd keep reading it, but no time right now.
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Michael,
Okay, I found "Bastard Out of Carolina" -- I do have it. The reviews in the beginning say it's good. I read the first page, and can tell you that it's in the first person. From the way it begins, I'd say there was probably some brutality in the narrator's life. But it's much more flowing and lyrical than Annie Proulx's writing, at least IMO. I'd keep reading it, but no time right now.
"Bastard" was wildly popular when it first came out (I was working in a bookstore at the time). I always meant to read it - so keep me informed. It's not surprising to me that Allison's writing is more lyrical than Annie's - she is one of the most terse writers I think I've ever read.
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I am sure the book is great; the movie was phenomenal, if very difficult to watch....
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I read "Bastard" when it first came out and have it here somewhere. As usual, I don't remember it in any type of detailed way but I remember being very moved by the book. As far as comparisons to Annie's writing, I can't remember. I never saw the film and I'm not sure I'd want to...
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CSI and Rosewood, you know my brain is often slow to warm up but I promise I'll be over here once I've done some serious thinking on the female influence in BBM. It's one of the two great contradictions in film and story, the other being the sexuality of most of the major players.
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By the way, here are Annie Proulx's somewhat reluctant
choices for her favorite ten books from
THE TOP TEN
Writers Pick Their Favorite Books
Edited by J. Peder Zane
THE ODYSSEY by Homer
WHEAT THAT SPRINGETH GREEN by J.F. Powers
THE ADVENTURES OF TOM SAWYER by Mark Twain
SHIP OF FOOLS by Katherine Anne Porter
THE MASTER AND MARGARITA by Mikhail Bulgakov
KING LEAR by Wm. Shakespeare
LEAVES OF GRASS by Walt Whitman
The stories of WILLIAM TREVOR
THE BLACK BOOK by Orhan Pamuk
The haiku of Matsuo Basho
She also says, in her inimitable style, that "...Lists, unless grocery
shopping lists, are truly a 'reductio ad absurdum'.
;D
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The Odyssey, hey? Why doesn't that come as a surprise? Okay, it's not The Aeneid but I bet that's on the list somewhere.
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By the way, here are Annie Proulx's somewhat reluctant
choices for her favorite ten books from
THE TOP TEN
hmmm ... apparently she's not overly fond of women writers, either!
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^^^^^
Homer was a woman. Most people don't know that.
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Rosewood, I was thinking about your comment about male writers getting women more than vice versa. I wonder sometimes if this is just because we have seen in the past more male writers writing about women. There's a literary expectation about female characters. This is a hopeless explanation but...
If you read enough of one genre you can build up an expectation of what is to come. When it does, it can seem good because you recognise it. Similarly, we have an idea of what "good writing about women" is like because we've read so much good writing that includes women characters. It can be hard to stand back and say, is this good writing about women or simply good writing which includes women. Sorry,that's a dreadful load of waffle.
What we don't have a lot of in terms of history, is women writing men. Female writers have tended to concentrate on their female characters - Scarlett O'Hara, Jane Eyre, Maggie Tolliver, etc. There aren't that many books which simply deal with men. AP is different in that respect. She does it and she does it well. At least, I assume she does it well since that's what the men say.
Perhaps it's just her harsh uncompromising style. Could a sentimental writer do men as well? Or would the style preclude good male characterisations/ Do I need a second cup of tea before I try to write something more intelligent than this?
One thing I did ages ago was to note down all the mother & child/birth type references in BBM and there were an awful lot. I stopped short at the cow and calf operation :D Apart from the obvious one of the time after Junior's birth, there are so many refs of this nature that I think it could give the author's gender away if you didn't know. In writing Ennis she has given him a lot of this maternal quality. This works well in the story as he both mothers and has a need to mother, and his work with animals, though unsentimental, is part of this characterisation. But I suspect it's not something that would have come across so strongly if a man had written the story.
One other thing that strikes me is that while she accepts entirely the gay relationship, she doesn't then clutter it up with unnecessary sweetness. I wonder if a gay man would have added more softness or a straight man less acceptance. Just a thought. Then, at the end, she allows them both to feel the full crushing weight of love; I wonder if a male author could have had that solid concentration on love as a central theme. It's not hedged around with softness but it is love nevertheless.
Second cuppa coming up. My brain isn't yet awake this Sunday morning.
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Rosewood, I was thinking about your comment about male writers getting women more than vice versa. I wonder sometimes if this is just because we have seen in the past more male writers writing about women. There's a literary expectation about female characters. This is a hopeless explanation but...
If you read enough of one genre you can build up an expectation of what is to come. When it does, it can seem good because you recognise it. Similarly, we have an idea of what "good writing about women" is like because we've read so much good writing that includes women characters. It can be hard to stand back and say, is this good writing about women or simply good writing which includes women. Sorry,that's a dreadful load of waffle.
Some terrific comments, Angel.
Yes, I get, vaguely, where you're headed.
And here are some vague comments of my own:
The first few centuries of written words were men writing, generally about men.
And what more, it was the writing of men, that until, perhaps Shakespeare, just didn't,
necessarily, 'get' that women were sentient beings. Well, perhaps the Greeks did.
But weren't those women more caricatures OF women, then women themselves?
Women based on what men 'thought' women should or should not be.
No, wait. Was Antigone a woman? And didn't she write plays with women as avenging
creatures who took no prisoners? Okay. But still, she was few and far between.
On further reflection, wasn't Antigone the name of a play written by a man?
I can't tell if that adds or detracts from my argument...
So we became accustomed to certain shades of color when it came to women characters.
Maybe that's where your 'literary expectation' comes in.
Please pardon me for delving this far back as I know next to nothing about the classics.
Forgive my generalizations as they are, admittedly, the product of generalized knowledge.
But still, I give voice to these thoughts.
When will this torment end? ;D
What we don't have a lot of in terms of history, is women writing men. Female writers have tended to concentrate on their female characters - Scarlett O'Hara, Jane Eyre, Maggie Tolliver, etc. There aren't that many books which simply deal with men. AP is different in that respect. She does it and she does it well. At least, I assume she does it well since that's what the men say.
Well, we have FRANKENSTEIN.
We have George Eliot disguised as a woman unable to disguise her womanly style. ;)
We have George Sand, ditto.
And notice that their books haven't stood the test of time.
What that says about their gender, I don't know. I'm merely putting it out there.
And never having read any of their work, I can't say whether they wrote 'good' men
or not. Though both women certainly knew enough about men to fill several volumes.
To judge from the excesses of their personal lives. ;)
And remember that Jane Austen and the Brontes either thought they should publish with
male names or tried to publish with male names or did publish with male names.
Can't remember exactly.
In fact, isn't there still a ridiculous theory floating around that it was really the Bronte
brother who wrote all the books? ;D
Still, their books, on some level, must have been sort of 'gender' neutral. At least for their time.
Although how anyone other than a woman could have written PRIDE AND PREJUDICE,
I couldn't say. And I doubt ANYONE reading it then or now, would think otherwise.
Perhaps it's just her harsh uncompromising style. Could a sentimental writer do men as well? Or would the style preclude good male characterisations/ Do I need a second cup of tea before I try to write something more intelligent than this?
Harsh and uncompromising does not, necessarily, mean masculine.
And yet, I admit that we get a really good view of Annie Proulx herself when we read her
work. She is there. Though not so that we object.
If you read her interviews, you get a general view of a grumpy woman who doesn't suffer
fools lightly. A woman who has seen it all and maybe experienced it all and doesn't need or
care to be reminded of it. Except in her work.
She is also, as I've said before, quite ruthless.
Not a woman who is easy to like or perhaps, admire.(Except for her literary genius.
God, I admire genius.)
Not a 'soft' woman.
Although this doesn't preclude an interior softness of which she herself may be the only
one aware. Her obvious affection for Ennis Del Mar shows me a bit of that.
Perhaps inadvertently.
One thing I did ages ago was to note down all the mother & child/birth type references in BBM and there were an awful lot. I stopped short at the cow and calf operation :D Apart from the obvious one of the time after Junior's birth, there are so many refs of this nature that I think it could give the author's gender away if you didn't know. In writing Ennis she has given him a lot of this maternal quality. This works well in the story as he both mothers and has a need to mother, and his work with animals, though unsentimental, is part of this characterisation. But I suspect it's not something that would have come across so strongly if a man had written the story.
Yes, yes, YES! You've tapped on something in Ennis that might be the very thing that speaks
to us as women. That maternal quality she gives him. Oh, absolutely.
And you're perfectly right.
A man, writing this story, might not have had the thought or emotion process to bring out
this 'maternal' streak in Ennis or if he had, might have been careful to avoid it, thinking that
he had to be careful NOT to make Ennis SEEM stereotypical. Wrong headed, of course.
Since to me, Ennis Del Mar is one of the more masculine characters I've ever read.
In fact, this 'maternal' streak in Ennis helps explain him. Helps, in fact, to show us his duality
of nature. How, given half a chance, given a less brutal father, he might have
been the sort of man who would have gone for the 'cow and calf' operation of Jack's
dreams.
Do I make any sense?
One other thing that strikes me is that while she accepts entirely the gay relationship, she doesn't then clutter it up with unnecessary sweetness. I wonder if a gay man would have added more softness or a straight man less acceptance. Just a thought. Then, at the end, she allows them both to feel the full crushing weight of love; I wonder if a male author could have had that solid concentration on love as a central theme. It's not hedged around with softness but it is love nevertheless.
Second cuppa coming up. My brain isn't yet awake this Sunday morning.
AND notice that she is not in any way censorious. She NEVER, for a moment, passes judgement
on the gay aspect of the relationship. She accepts it, as she should, as anyone should, as
part of the human condition. As something that occurs and is neither good nor bad but thinking makes
it so. (And here I go again bringing Shakespeare into it....I think.)
She ASSUMES that the reader will accept it as well.
I don't think she meant this story for homophobes to read and repent of their ways.
She would know it takes more than a few words, no matter how deeply felt, to change
the way of bigots.
I too think that a gay man might not have thrown the full force of concentration on the
'love' aspect of the story. But I can't say WHY I think that. Maybe because a gay man might
have reasoned that the love angle would have been the 'expected' thing and would have
tried to go all macho and distant himself from the strong emotional pull that AP, as a woman,
is less afraid of?
I don't know.
A straight man, writing Brokeback, might have been a bit more timid than AP - having more to
lose in society's eyes. I say it would have taken a VERY courageous straight man to write BBM.
I hesitate to add that that's probably WHY it took a woman to do it.
But I wouldn't want to be accused of being facile. ;D
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A lovely response, Rosewood. I'm glad my half-asleep rambling made a little sense. I agree with everything except your dismissal of George Elliot!! I think her books still work today. I've occasionally thought of her line "In death, as in life, they were not parted" when I've thought of Jack and Ennis. Not that it's accurate since they were parted in life, but a soppy part of me likes to think they would be reunited in death.
Back to AP. I guess as a disinterested observer, she was able to bring the full power of her genius to bear on the story without having any gender issues getting in the way. In a small way, like the female slash writers (which is to say, most of them), she can achieve an ego-free style. They and she are writing about a relationship in which they can play no part, and they don't project themselves into it according to their gender. They might side with one or the other man but they don't have a woman in there to have issues about.
Writing about Alma is another thing entirely, of course.
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Cantstandit formulated some questions for this sub-topic about AP's authorial gender as:
1)How is her perspective as a woman-not that she has no other-impact how we're are told what were are told about the characters?
2)Do you see any bias from a female perspective? How does it work to the benefit of or detraction from the story?
3)How does what you know about Annie influence how you interpret what you are reading, if it does?
Virginia Woolf had some things to say about women and fiction, about three-quarters of a century ago. "A Room of One's Own" is quite long (you can find it all here: http://gutenberg.net.au/ebooks02/0200791.txt but maybe the meatiest comments are in part six:
But the sight of the two people getting into the
taxi and the satisfaction it gave me made me also ask whether there are
two sexes in the mind corresponding to the two sexes in the body, and
whether they also require to be united in order to get complete
satisfaction and happiness? And I went on amateurishly to sketch a plan
of the soul so that in each of us two powers preside, one male, one
female; and in the man's brain the man predominates over the woman, and
in the woman's brain the woman predominates over the man. The normal and
comfortable state of being is that when the two live in harmony
together, spiritually co-operating. If one is a man, still the woman
part of his brain must have effect; and a woman also must have
intercourse with the man in her. Coleridge perhaps meant this when he
said that a great mind is androgynous. It is when this fusion takes
place that the mind is fully fertilized and uses all its faculties.
Perhaps a mind that is purely masculine cannot create, any more than a
mind that is purely feminine, I thought. But it would he well to test
what one meant by man-womanly, and conversely by woman-manly, by pausing
and looking at a book or two.
Coleridge certainly did not mean, when he said that a great mind is
androgynous, that it is a mind that has any special sympathy with women;
a mind that takes up their cause or devotes itself to their
interpretation. Perhaps the androgynous mind is less apt to make these
distinctions than the single-sexed mind. He meant, perhaps, that the
androgynous mind is resonant and porous; that it transmits emotion
without impediment; that it is naturally creative, incandescent and
undivided. In fact one goes back to Shakespeare's mind as the type of
the androgynous, of the man-womanly mind, though it would be impossible
to say what Shakespeare thought of women. And if it be true that it is
one of the tokens of the fully developed mind that it does not think
specially or separately of sex, how much harder it is to attain that
condition now than ever before....
Even so, the very first sentence that I would write here...
is that it is fatal for anyone who writes to think of their
sex. It is fatal to be a man or woman pure and simple; one must be
woman-manly or man-womanly. It is fatal for a woman to lay the least
stress on any grievance; to plead even with justice any cause; in any
way to speak consciously as a woman. And fatal is no figure of speech;
for anything written with that conscious bias is doomed to death. It
ceases to be fertilized. Brilliant and effective, powerful and masterly,
as it may appear for a day or two, it must wither at nightfall; it
cannot grow in the minds of others. Some collaboration has to take place
in the mind between the woman and the man before the art of creation can
be accomplished. Some marriage of opposites has to be consummated. The
whole of the mind must lie wide open if we are to get the sense that the
writer is communicating his experience with perfect fullness. There must
be freedom and there must be peace
If she gave it any thought at all, one imagines Proulx would aspire to the genderlessness of Shakespeare, whom she lists as a favorite.
Ed. to formate quotes.
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Some minor housekeeping stuff:
There is a theory - apparently reasonably respectable - that the Iliad was written by a man ("Homer") but the Odyssey by a woman. I think it's based on some lack of technical knowledge about weapons, etc.,in the latter and the considerble emphasis on Odysseus's wife, Penelope. Of course, there's also the theory that both poems are sort of like long folksongs - that is, they may have had an original primary author, but over the years various people amended and added bits and pieces.
The Brontes published originally as Currer, Ellis, and Acton Bell. When word got out these were pseudonyms for women, there was considerable indignation about both Jane Eyre and Wuthering Heights - way too steamy for ladies to have written. Of course, these were published during an especially prudish part of the Victorian era, whereas the sisters had grown up reading people like Byron, rock stars and sex symbols of their day, and writing precocious tales of warfare and adultery for their own amusement.
Yeah, Antigone was the protagonist of a play by Sophocles. Bloody, like Greek tragedy in general. Still, she was gentler than Europedes's Medea, who murdered her children in jealous revenge.
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Still, [Antigone] was gentler than Europedes's Medea, who murdered her children in jealous revenge.
'Course The Trojan Women (Euripides) has a bunch of gals on stage, and I don't think anybody gets hacked up at all. Just yack, yack, yack.
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Still, [Antigone] was gentler than Europedes's Medea, who murdered her children in jealous revenge.
'Course The Trojan Women (Euripides) has a bunch of gals on stage, and I don't think anybody gets hacked up at all. Just yack, yack, yack.
I wish I remembered my 3rd year of Latin-we translated the Aneaed-and I actually remember getting excited to be going to class. The teacher was an ancient Dominican nun, with about 10 different degrees, in Classics, Theology, History, you name it.
and we spent half the time goofing off, because she had a hearing problem....sigh.
'Gallia est divides in tres partem.' I honestly don't recall much more....
Castro, yes I recall that reference-about androgyny, I mean. Women too supposedly have 40% greater capacity for switching between the two brains, right and left. I wonder if people like AP have a little more than that, as well. I would consider her androgynous in her thought process-but there is no escaping the fact that she IS a woman. As far as we know, And as I read her interviews, that gets verified to me; She is very typical hetero female in some ways, more fascinated with the male gender than the female, for example. Nohting like an interesting male character to a woman.. ;) There is is a line in that play where the guy becomes a quadripalegic,-"Its' My Life" or something like that, after driving under a truck-and notices how relaxed his female physician is in his presence. He is an artist, who wants to die because of his condition, but he realizes-or believes-she is that relaxed around him because she is not in the presence of a man-ie, he no longer has a functioning penis. So the ancient fear/thrill interplay between different sexes is missing-and allows him to observe her in a more unfettered state. Clearly a hetero POV of course. But gay, bi or straight, I'd wager the opposite gender is always at least a little bit fascinating....
I would think that same element of excitement would be present in a female writer's imagination. AP says the characters took her over-you would almost need to be finely attuned to the opposite gender for that to happen, I think, and have the writing still ring true. And there seems to me a need to understand, that she clearly has no problem doing with her female characters, generally speaking. I hark back to the young girl and the talking tractor in 'Bunchrass At The Edge of the World"-I almost feel as if this character IS close to what AP may have been like as a youth. And she expresses her to the nth degree-she is not at all a mystery to me, this character. Ennis though still is a bit, even though I've read and reread and anlyzed and debated about him-I still do not completely get him, even as I champion him.
There were some things either I or the writer-AP-could not completely comprehend; that is how I can ID her as a female writing this story.
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By the way, here are Annie Proulx's somewhat reluctant
choices for her favorite ten books from
THE TOP TEN
Writers Pick Their Favorite Books
Edited by J. Peder Zane
THE ODYSSEY by Homer
WHEAT THAT SPRINGETH GREEN by J.F. Powers
THE ADVENTURES OF TOM SAWYER by Mark Twain
SHIP OF FOOLS by Katherine Anne Porter
THE MASTER AND MARGARITA by Mikhail Bulgakov
KING LEAR by Wm. Shakespeare
LEAVES OF GRASS by Walt Whitman
The stories of WILLIAM TREVOR
THE BLACK BOOK by Orhan Pamuk
The haiku of Matsuo Basho
She also says, in her inimitable style, that "...Lists, unless grocery
shopping lists, are truly a 'reductio ad absurdum'.
;D
I have to confess-I am very proud of myself_I knew , just knew, King Lear would be on that list!! I thought about it driving home the other night!!
On the other hand, I was sure Louis L'amour's novels would top out the first eight.....life builds you up and slaps you down!! ;)
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'Gallia est divides in tres partem.' I honestly don't recall much more....
And she expresses her to the nth degree-she is not at all a mystery to me, this character. Ennis though still is a bit, even though I've read and reread and anlyzed and debated about him-I still do not completely get him, even as I champion him.
There were some things either I or the writer-AP-could not completely comprehend; that is how I can ID her as a female writing this story.
Shouldn't that be "Galla divides in tres partem est"?
Do you reckon a male writer would understand Ennis better? Is it his maleness which is the barrier or his screwed-up psyche? Is it something one has to intuit rather than analyse? Is this perhaps why she reckoned Heath Ledger knew him better, because he felt his way rather than simply analysed Ennis?
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[I wish I remembered my 3rd year of Latin-we translated the Aneaed-and I actually remember getting excited to be going to class. The teacher was an ancient Dominican nun, with about 10 different degrees, in Classics, Theology, History, you name it.
and we spent half the time goofing off, because she had a hearing problem....sigh.
'Gallia est divides in tres partem.' I honestly don't recall much more....
Hey CSI, funny u mentioned ur Latin class -- my mother who died at 89 still remembered that passage -- and she was prob 4 times ur age! she was also taught by a nun!
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There's an "omnia" in there, for "all Gaul" or "the whole of Gaul." "Gallia est omnis divisa in partes tres." And that's all I remember. My public high school teracher spent more time on Cicero than Caesar, or at least Cicero made more impression on me, probably because I fell in love with his enemy, Cataline. Carthago delenda est!...or whatever...
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Shouldn't that be "Galla divides in tres partem est"?
Gallia est omnis divisa in partes tres, etc etc. Have we so easily forgotten our participles? Tsk tsk tsk. :D "Carthago delenda est" was Cato Sr. "Quo usquam Catilina abuteris patientia nostra etc etc" will ring a bell!
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Shouldn't that be "Galla divides in tres partem est"?
Gallia est omnis divisa in partes tres, etc etc. Have we so easily forgotten our participles? Tsk tsk tsk. :D "Carthago delenda est" was Cato Sr. "Quo usquam Catilina abuteris patientia nostra etc etc" will ring a bell!
Well...there's still only one Annie.... ;)
I was quite happy to see "THE MASTER AND MARGARITA by Mikhail Bulgakov" on her list. One of my favorites - and I thought rather different from her work (till I started reading about hellholes and beard growing contests, that is).
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A lovely response, Rosewood. I'm glad my half-asleep rambling made a little sense. I agree with everything except your dismissal of George Elliot!! I think her books still work today. I've occasionally thought of her line "In death, as in life, they were not parted" when I've thought of Jack and Ennis. Not that it's accurate since they were parted in life, but a soppy part of me likes to think they would be reunited in death.
Back to AP. I guess as a disinterested observer, she was able to bring the full power of her genius to bear on the story without having any gender issues getting in the way. In a small way, like the female slash writers (which is to say, most of them), she can achieve an ego-free style. They and she are writing about a relationship in which they can play no part, and they don't project themselves into it according to their gender. They might side with one or the other man but they don't have a woman in there to have issues about.
Writing about Alma is another thing entirely, of course.
I like your comment about gender issues not getting in the way.
I suppose you mean personal as well as fictional gender issues.
Yes, I agree that BBM is remarkably gender issue free.
A woman writing about a relationship in which she can play no part except as the
discarded wife.
This is, possibly, the most remarkable thing about BBM.
Because in some crazy way, it deals on the most human of levels with the utmost of
gender free issues: love.
Or am I even nuts to think that?
But this is not as difficult as one might assume.
In fact, for AP, it might have seemed liberating.
For ANY woman with the talent and the ideas and the aspiration to write in a certain
way, it might be the most liberating thing of all. NOT to have to take into account
her own womanly ego and even the rigidity of thought that a woman would do this
or that in a 'certain' way.
Am I making any sense today?
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Ministering Angel said:
"Carthago delenda est" was Cato Sr. "Quo usquam Catilina abuteris patientia nostra etc etc" will ring a bell!
Oh, goshl: thank you. Funny thing is, I have no recollection whatever of trying to translate Cato. So far as Cicero's passionate attacks went, they had the effect of making me like Cataline as one would a character in a book. (Or as I did Edmund in Lear:"Now gods, stand up for bastards!"
(Afterthought: Or maybe, with Cataline, imagination came into play as it does with fan fiction, expanding the character from the fragments provided...)
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'Gallia est divides in tres partem.' I honestly don't recall much more....
And she expresses her to the nth degree-she is not at all a mystery to me, this character. Ennis though still is a bit, even though I've read and reread and anlyzed and debated about him-I still do not completely get him, even as I champion him.
There were some things either I or the writer-AP-could not completely comprehend; that is how I can ID her as a female writing this story.
Shouldn't that be "Galla divides in tres partem est"?
Do you reckon a male writer would understand Ennis better? Is it his maleness which is the barrier or his screwed-up psyche? Is it something one has to intuit rather than analyse? Is this perhaps why she reckoned Heath Ledger knew him better, because he felt his way rather than simply analysed Ennis?
Not from my Latin class..unless the memory is going...jeez, not a chance of THAT happening...
I do think the malesness/femaleness comes first, then the neurosis; I don't want to venture into which gender would understand psychopathy or basic theory better; it all depends on the individual .But I think the instincitive rather than learned responses would be more easily relatable to one's own gender.
Example: Ennis becomes the agressor when he is aroused and presented with a willing submissive partner-seems a nature-based response, in my interpretation, of course. I think a man would have a recognition of this, as attested to in early discussions of FNIT; but in the scene at the end, where Ennis strikes out at Jack-this is a nurture response. He is programmed to go into immediate denial, in order to suppress the horror he felt with Earl....'I did once' becomes 'us living together' and Jack is brining it up again, and it is triggering the part of Ennis that wants it, and so the part that knows to fear it, presents the defense mechanism of projection; Its all your fault,Jack, you're the queer. Not sure which gender would see that more clearly. I think that is truly adrongynous-humans have the basic similiarities-it is how they present. Women tend to internalize more, generally speaking. Ah, there ya go: AP gave Ennis internalization that is more prevalent than his outward projection...so from AP's standpoint, maybe that made more sense.
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A library where I once shelved books separated paperbacks by genre - a bloc of westerns, one of romances, one of war novels, etc. Browsers self-segregated themselves by gender. And while I suppose some writers used deceptive pseudonyms, they generally seemed just what you'd expect them to be. No lady writers on those front-covers showing rampant warships.
The books aimed at women had more to do with emotional/sexual relationships and those for men were more perfunctory in describing gender inter-relationships. Still, where you might think only the men's books had much to say about things, they both did - just different stuff. (E.g., brand of weapon vs brand of shoes.)
Supposing these writers gravitated to the subject-matter that attracted them, I guess this division tells us something about gender preferences. Maybe more in subject than in style, but the two tend to overlap for publications at this level. The men's books said more about their work. The women's books tended to skimp on the process of earning a living, even when the heroines supposedly had not just jobs, but careers they might have cared passionately about.
Like the Gender Genie, looking at writing from this standpoint doesn't give us any definitive information about how "feminine" a writer AP is (if I even understand the underlying issue). Still, might it help arrive at some loosey-goosey conclusions about what "feminine" means in the first place?
(Murder mysteries, btw, were all shelved together, regardless of type. And yet major gender differences show up in the sub-types. A couple of contrasting good writers I think of off-hand are Elizabeth George with her Inspector Lynley series, and Ian Rankin with his Rebus. You'd guess the writers' sex without much trouble. Fact is, I read George in spite of a couple of her female characters, romantic interests who, presumably, make the story more appealing both to her and to many readers.)
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I was waiting for the first protest! ;D This is a tricky path.....
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We do have a separate western section in the library I work at, but no romance (although in large type romances are indicated by a sticker with a heart on it - as are mysteries with a skull). However the only other genre sections we have are mystery and science fiction - so nothing gender related. Annie is in general fiction.
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We do have a separate western section in the library I work at, but no romance (although in large type romances are indicated by a sticker with a heart on it - as are mysteries with a skull). However the only other genre sections we have are mystery and science fiction - so nothing gender related. Annie is in general fiction.
Yeah, I dimly remember heart and skull stickers, too, and I'm not sure there weren't others. I mayn't have been clear, though: these paperbacks (and not trade paperbacks, just "cheap" ones) weren't separated by author's gender, but by genre. If a Rosemary Carteret chose to write a tale about running gunboats in the Phillipines she'd have been right there spine-to-spine with the guys!
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A library where I once shelved books separated paperbacks by genre - a bloc of westerns, one of romances, one of war novels, etc. Browsers self-segregated themselves by gender. And while I suppose some writers used deceptive pseudonyms, they generally seemed just what you'd expect them to be. No lady writers on those front-covers showing rampant warships.
The books aimed at women had more to do with emotional/sexual relationships and those for men were more perfunctory in describing gender inter-relationships. Still, where you might think only the men's books had much to say about things, they both did - just different stuff. (E.g., brand of weapon vs brand of shoes.)
Supposing these writers gravitated to the subject-matter that attracted them, I guess this division tells us something about gender preferences. Maybe more in subject than in style, but the two tend to overlap for publications at this level. The men's books said more about their work. The women's books tended to skimp on the process of earning a living, even when the heroines supposedly had not just jobs, but careers they might have cared passionately about.
Like the Gender Genie, looking at writing from this standpoint doesn't give us any definitive information about how "feminine" a writer AP is (if I even understand the underlying issue). Still, might it help arrive at some loosey-goosey conclusions about what "feminine" means in the first place?
(Murder mysteries, btw, were all shelved together, regardless of type. And yet major gender differences show up in the sub-types. A couple of contrasting good writers I think of off-hand are Elizabeth George with her Inspector Lynley series, and Ian Rankin with his Rebus. You'd guess the writers' sex without much trouble. Fact is, I read George in spite of a couple of her female characters, romantic interests who, presumably, make the story more appealing both to her and to many readers.)
Yeah, women will get hung up on those emotional issues.
Imagine BBM without the emotion.
What is it that appeals to us if it isn't the INTENSITY of that emotion?
It is at the heart of BBM. Laid bare for us to see.
In some odd way, I almost believe that AP herself, was surprised by this intensity.
I don't read Rankin because I'm not big on his world of nasty people doing ultra nasty things in
the back alleys of Edinburgh (a city I prefer to romanticize in my imagination),
amid unrelenting emptiness and drudge. Not for me.
But despite that, I do recognize that he is a heck of a writer. All my friends who read him
tell me so and I'm not prejudiced enough to think my view is the correct one.
I read Elizabeth George but dislike her main woman characters.
I threw a party at the end of last year's book.
I read Martha Grimes, who writes a male oriented series featuring a British Police
Superintendent named Richard Jury (LOVE the irony of the name) and his friends and cohorts.
Hard edged, often remarkably cruel crimes off-set by the likeablity of a rather odd cast.
Grimes seems to get into the mind of her male characters and makes you forget you're reading
a woman's viewpoint. Although her taste for a specific sort of wit often gives her away.
But maybe that's just me. Needless to say, I don't mind it.
Funny thing is, that when she's writing male characters, there exists a certain stand-offishness
towards the women characters that plays well with what she's doing. Everything is viewed through
that male filter. In a way it keeps the reader focused on the males front and center.
Just as it should be.
Grimes gets kids better than anyone writing today.
Mainly she gets their often tragic fragility. She is unsparing when it comes to
making them objects of malevolence. And vengeance is not, necessarily, righteous.
Don't know if this facility for kids is a result of her being a woman or not. I'd say it has more
to do with her remembering what it was like to be an intelligent kid and her ability
to stoke hers and our imaginations.
I read Thomas Perry who writes a great series featuring a woman named Jane
Whitefield. She is part Native American, descendant from some of the tribes that
frequented upstate New York in the 18th and 19th centuries. So she has a long
tradition of myth and an unsparing sense of justice.
She is someone you go to when your life is in upheaval and bad guys are after you.
She will help you disappear into another life IF it is warranted. That is her gift.
Terrific series. Perry is one of the guys out there who 'gets' women very well.
Whitefield is cerebral, dedicated to her talents, smart, rugged, able to leap tall buildings
at a single bound. Well, not really. But she is the ultimate competent woman.
One who inspires confidence in her male and female clients.
One who isn't hung up on the extraneaous crap that a lot of women characters can get
bogged down in. Although she does have a love interest and in the last couple of books,
was actually married and tried to retire from her dangerous work.
There is a scene in an abandoned factory at the end of one of her books where she
gets the upper hand on a band of cold blooded killers, that is absolutely one of the most
chilling things I've ever read. AND one of the most exciting. AND what's more, it is
plausible. Whitefield never does anything a woman couldn't ACTUALLY do.
That's the genius of Perry.
At my main library, there is no romance section either. There are the other sections you mentioned,
though. And I've always kind of wondered about that. But then I thought, well, it's only
because 'romance' isn't taken seriously. Especially in literary circles. 'Romance' only brings in a great
bulk of the publishing dollar, but then maybe that's not serious enough. Filthy lucre and all that.
Mustn't soil our hands. Though with the onset of huge publishing conglomerates gobbling up
every independent publisher in sight, you'd think that attitude was over and done with.
I admit there were a few years when romance novels were instrumental in helping me through
my apres-divorce blues. And boy was I greatful. Discovered some terrific writers as well.
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Yeah, women will get hung up on those emotional issues....
Men get hung up on emotional issues too (hell, they'll kill over them, or die for them) - but on a day-to-day basis, don't they often express (or hide) those emotions differently? Annie Proulx knows that, and, you could say,respects it.
Probably I should have emphasized that I was exploring the idea that often-but-not-always-mediocre genre novelists might tell us something about differences in "male" and "female" writing, because they tend to exaggerate certain characteristics. Or so it seems to me.
I haven't read the earlier Rankin novels, which apparently were more perfunctory, but in the more recent ones there are plenty of emotional issues, and character development (including some done by revelations of childhoods past). Admittedly, though, "his" Edinburgh is like a cop's-eye view of New Orleans (before the flood) as contrasted to a tourist's acquaintance. Ordinarily I wouldn't like gloomy inner-city procedurals, but Rankin's quality roped me in (kinda like getting caught up in watching"The Wire" or - for different reasons - "Friday Night Lights").
Grimes is another I've read, though not within the past few months; Isn't it she who has a set of Light Relief characters that include a larcenous American aunt and a gay antique dealer? This struck me as a sort of schizophrenic approach, maybe an attempt to fit the "cozy" tradition; and a failure of her writer's ear. Certainly I liked Jury. I'll check Thomas Perry next time I visit the used-paperback store.
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Yeah, women will get hung up on those emotional issues....
Men get hung up on emotional issues too (hell, they'll kill over them, or die for them) - but on a day-to-day basis, don't they often express (or hide) those emotions differently? Annie Proulx knows that, and, you could say,respects it.
Probably I should have emphasized that I was exploring the idea that often-but-not-always-mediocre genre novelists might tell us something about differences in "male" and "female" writing, because they tend to exaggerate certain characteristics. Or so it seems to me.
I haven't read the earlier Rankin novels, which apparently were more perfunctory, but in the more recent ones there are plenty of emotional issues, and character development (including some done by revelations of childhoods past). Admittedly, though, "his" Edinburgh is like a cop's-eye view of New Orleans (before the flood) as contrasted to a tourist's acquaintance. Ordinarily I wouldn't like gloomy inner-city procedurals, but Rankin's quality roped me in (kinda like getting caught up in watching"The Wire" or - for different reasons - "Friday Night Lights").
Grimes is another I've read, though not within the past few months; Isn't it she who has a set of Light Relief characters that include a larcenous American aunt and a gay antique dealer? This struck me as a sort of schizophrenic approach, maybe an attempt to fit the "cozy" tradition; and a failure of her writer's ear. Certainly I liked Jury. I'll check Thomas Perry next time I visit the used-paperback store.
Yes, men will have their wars. No question.
I don't know that Annie Proulx 'respects' the fact that men have a habit of hidiing their
emotions. Rather I'd say she uses it as fodder. Quite pragmatic of her, really.
Romance books are themselves 'locked in' to a fairly strict schematic.
Hence, the 'exageration' you may be speaking of.
You know, generally, what you're getting when you pick up a romance.
No other genre, except perhaps certain forms of mystery, has such a built in expectation.
However, it is possible to find gold among the dreck.
And it is possible to be surprised.
I've done and been.
Grimes secondary set of characters is, as you say, light relief.
Necessary in the world that Richard Jury operates in.
She takes a couple of strands of the 'cozy' and weaves them in among the more 'serious'
doings. I, for one, don't mind this. She keeps these two worlds strictly apart and never
does she find murder amusing or something that is intended to wile away the hours accompanied
by a cup of tea while the puzzle is solved. No. That's not her thing at all.
You mustn't, ever, be taken in by the 'light relief' as you call it.
I've always thought this aspect of her books feeds a sort of warped sense of humor
on her part. And the town and its environs feeds her satirical bent.
I think the town is named Long Piddleton.
But I could be wrong as I'm writing from faulty memory.
So it is certainly up to you just how seriously you choose to take these intermissions
in her books.
Grimes also has a strange propensity for taking animals in her stories seriously.
This can be off putting if you're not used to it OR you are the type that prefers your
mysteries strictly within a rigid framework.
In what I consider her masterpiece, THE OLD SILENT, she has a chapter written from the
point of view of a sheep dog going about its work of rounding up some sheep in the
evening. NO anthropomorphic stuff at all. None. Zip. Nada. She actually gets into the head
of a dog and what it might be figuring out as it goes about its natural work. Amazing,
imaginative writing.
Yet, it is the timely appearance of this dog in the pursuit of its duties, that stops the vicious
killing of a child. No cutesy little crime here.
Brilliant, intriguing work.
At the end of one of her books, she leaves Richard Jury alone, shot, dying, near a fountain,
on the grounds of a park. That's it. When I read this, I couldn't believe it. I thought she was
ending the series on a horrible note. AND what's more I wouldn't put it past her.
She's another of those ruthless writers who is capable of ANYTHING. Never presume or
assume when you read her stuff.
Well, what happens in the final moments of that book?
As Jury lies there, bleeding and contemplating a bit of his life,
a life that is slowly drifting away from him?
In the very last or next to last sentence, a small dog approaches.
That's it.
If you're not in tune with Grimes. You might miss the import of this all together.
She is wicked.
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By the way, here are Annie Proulx's somewhat reluctant
choices for her favorite ten books from
THE TOP TEN
Writers Pick Their Favorite Books
Edited by J. Peder Zane
THE ODYSSEY by Homer
WHEAT THAT SPRINGETH GREEN by J.F. Powers
THE ADVENTURES OF TOM SAWYER by Mark Twain
SHIP OF FOOLS by Katherine Anne Porter
THE MASTER AND MARGARITA by Mikhail Bulgakov
KING LEAR by Wm. Shakespeare
LEAVES OF GRASS by Walt Whitman
The stories of WILLIAM TREVOR
THE BLACK BOOK by Orhan Pamuk
The haiku of Matsuo Basho
She also says, in her inimitable style, that "...Lists, unless grocery
shopping lists, are truly a 'reductio ad absurdum'.
;D
Yay Annie! She DOES love Mark Twain! I knew it! Also Whitman, way to go, woman! King Lear - WHOA! - the cruelest tale e'er written. Basho's haiku! Yeah!
Thanks Rosewood! Ive been waiting for this! Beyond my wildest expectations! Basho. Holy shit! Oh, you woman, you!
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By the way, here are Annie Proulx's somewhat reluctant
choices for her favorite ten books from
THE TOP TEN
hmmm ... apparently she's not overly fond of women writers, either!
Not sure she's not fond of woman writers, JD. She's got Katharine Porter, who's a real winner. Women have had to deal with for instance, Va Wolfe's rage that made her unreadable for me, for years. You reach for what you need. Who's gonna read Julian of Norwich in middle english to realize that there was a woman who wrote as beautifully as Chaucer? Etcetcetc.
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Funny.
You know who else loves Basho and, in fact,
quotes him (I'm assuming it's a man)
in the first book of his detective thriller series: Robert Crais.
Wide influence, I'd say. ;)
The Whitman I'm not surprised.
Saw it in certain of Proulx's descriptions and even her use
of water metaphor. Certainly in her poetic listing of mountain
ranges which Jack and Ennis frequented over the years.
It is nice to think that my conclusions weren't too outrageous.
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King Lear - WHOA! - the cruelest tale e'er
written.
I've written a fanfic, in which Cordelia turns out to have faked her own death. Then she runs off with Laertes.
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Rosewood, I was thinking about your comment about male writers getting women more than vice versa. I wonder sometimes if this is just because we have seen in the past more male writers writing about women.
One other thing that strikes me is that while she accepts entirely the gay relationship, she doesn't then clutter it up with unnecessary sweetness. I wonder if a gay man would have added more softness or a straight man less acceptance. Just a thought. Then, at the end, she allows them both to feel the full crushing weight of love; I wonder if a male author could have had that solid concentration on love as a central theme. It's not hedged around with softness but it is love nevertheless.
Second cuppa coming up. My brain isn't yet awake this Sunday morning.
Im not sure a man would have described the strength of the domestic life as brilliantly as Annie did in the scene where Alma has discovered her husband is in love with another and that one a man - the cry of the babies, the sheet of white lightening which, for me, brings forth the iconic image of white sheets, diapers, table clothes - I dont think that iconic image would come from a male writer.
Also, the world is seen from the point of view of those at the bottom of the power pyramid more clearly than those who are at the top. when you're looking, that is. if you're stuck in the boiler room of the ship of fools you dont see nothin' but steam.
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...
I've written a fanfic, in which Cordelia turns out to have faked her own death. Then she runs off with Laertes.
Dal, that's downright wicked. But if you're gonna cross plays, I suggest that Mercutio would have been a hell of a lot better choice. That way you could have both of them resurrected!
ETA: Ministering Angel said:What we don't have a lot of in terms of history, is women writing men. Female writers have tended to concentrate on their female characters - Scarlett O'Hara, Jane Eyre, Maggie Tolliver, etc. There aren't that many books which simply deal with men. AP is different in that respect. She does it and she does it well. At least, I assume she does it well since that's what the men say.
Female novelists (getting off genre books and talking about "serious" writers) tend to identify with their protagonists, don't they? As do men. But not all of them. When I was fourteen, I adored both Jane Eyre and Wuthering Heights, and reread both over the years. But only now do I realize that Emily had that sort of mental androgyny Woolf and others allude to. Charlotte didn't. Doesn't mean Emily wrote the better book; just that they took a different view of things.
Really, I don't think Annie Proulx has shown any sensitivity to "women's matters" that a male writer couldn't. (In fact, you could say that her description of the DelMar bedroom "full of the smell of old blood and milk and baby shit, and the sounds ... of squalling and sucking and Alma's sleepy groans, all reassuring of fecundity and life's continuance to one who worked with animals" is resolutely unsentimental and unappealing, even as it gives Ennis affirmation in his husbandly role.
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I think I might have guessed Willa Cather's Death of an Archbishop to have been written by a man. Beautiful character studies of males and hardly a woman in the story, if I recall correctly.
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Funny.
You know who else loves Basho and, in fact,
quotes him (I'm assuming it's a man)
in the first book of his detective thriller series: Robert Crais.
Wide influence, I'd say. ;)
Well, thinking of Basho: Annie loves a landscape, and is she ever adept at the quick sketch.
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...
I've written a fanfic, in which Cordelia turns out to have faked her own death. Then she runs off with Laertes.
Dal, that's downright wicked. But if you're gonna cross plays, I suggest that Mercutio would have been a hell of a lot better choice. That way you could have both of them resurrected!
ETA: Ministering Angel said:What we don't have a lot of in terms of history, is women writing men. Female writers have tended to concentrate on their female characters - Scarlett O'Hara, Jane Eyre, Maggie Tolliver, etc. There aren't that many books which simply deal with men. AP is different in that respect. She does it and she does it well. At least, I assume she does it well since that's what the men say.
....Really, I don't think Annie Proulx has shown any sensitivity to "women's matters" that a male writer couldn't. (In fact, you could say that her description of the DelMar bedroom "full of the smell of old blood and milk and baby shit, and the sounds ... of squalling and sucking and Alma's sleepy groans, all reassuring of fecundity and life's continuance to one who worked with animals" is resolutely unsentimental and unappealing, even as it gives Ennis affirmation in his husbandly role.
This is one of the very few passages in the short story which, unaccountably, annoyed me.
Maybe because it occurred to me that AP was bending over backwards to appear as unsentimental
as possible when viewing married family life through Ennis's eyes. Yeah, okay. I 'get' what she's
doing. But there is a tremendous 'ick' factor working here that I found unnecessarily brutal to
the moment. These are not farm animals in a barn, though AP may want us to think that Ennis views
it as such.
In fact, it is almost as if a detached anthropologist were viewing the scene and commenting.
Ennis as anthropologist doesn't work for me.
This is a moment when the author probably stepped in to interpret for her character.
And it is noticable.
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...
I've written a fanfic, in which Cordelia turns out to have faked her own death. Then she runs off with Laertes.
Dal, that's downright wicked. But if you're gonna cross plays, I suggest that Mercutio would have been a hell of a lot better choice. That way you could have both of them resurrected!
ETA: Ministering Angel said:What we don't have a lot of in terms of history, is women writing men. Female writers have tended to concentrate on their female characters - Scarlett O'Hara, Jane Eyre, Maggie Tolliver, etc. There aren't that many books which simply deal with men. AP is different in that respect. She does it and she does it well. At least, I assume she does it well since that's what the men say.
....Really, I don't think Annie Proulx has shown any sensitivity to "women's matters" that a male writer couldn't. (In fact, you could say that her description of the DelMar bedroom "full of the smell of old blood and milk and baby shit, and the sounds ... of squalling and sucking and Alma's sleepy groans, all reassuring of fecundity and life's continuance to one who worked with animals" is resolutely unsentimental and unappealing, even as it gives Ennis affirmation in his husbandly role.
This is one of the very few passages in the short story which, unaccountably, annoyed me.
Maybe because it occurred to me that AP was bending over backwards to appear as unsentimental
as possible when viewing married family life through Ennis's eyes. Yeah, okay. I 'get' what she's
doing. But there is a tremendous 'ick' factor working here that I found unnecessarily brutal to
the moment. These are not farm animals in a barn, though AP may want us to think that Ennis views
it as such.
In fact, it is almost as if a detached anthropologist were viewing the scene and commenting.
Ennis as anthropologist doesn't work for me.
This is a moment when the author probably stepped in to interpret for her character.
And it is noticable.
Rosewood, I liked this; maybe because I was married to a Yankee farmer who knew cows, babies, and women - said with pride he could birth a baby if call'd upon, he knew what to do. Knew "what women liked" because, I thot, from his experience with animals. He was highly attuned to the domestic life, blood up to his elbows in February from delivering lambs, and having to shovel manure from the barn regularly, had a regard for the yuck and muck of life. on the other hand, was the sweetest smelling man I ever met, his mother having taught him well to scrub himself clean. of course, as AP pointed out, the pleasures of rural life are offset by the darkness and stress of the same.
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One more thing (and thank you Rosewood for opening up this conversation!) - it seems to me that Annie P's men, despite buck teeth, broken noses, etc., and a tendency toward alcoholism, violence, etcetc., are somehow sexually attractive - speaking from a view of reading her Close Range stories, as well as BBMt - does this indicate a woman's p.o.v., I wonder?
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This is one of the very few passages in the short story which, unaccountably, annoyed me.
Maybe because it occurred to me that AP was bending over backwards to appear as unsentimental
as possible when viewing married family life through Ennis's eyes. Yeah, okay. I 'get' what she's
doing. But there is a tremendous 'ick' factor working here that I found unnecessarily brutal to
the moment. These are not farm animals in a barn, though AP may want us to think that Ennis views
it as such.
In fact, it is almost as if a detached anthropologist were viewing the scene and commenting.
Ennis as anthropologist doesn't work for me.
This is a moment when the author probably stepped in to interpret for her character.
And it is noticable.
Rosewood, I liked this; maybe because I was married to a Yankee farmer who knew cows, babies, and women - said with pride he could birth a baby if call'd upon, he knew what to do. Knew "what women liked" because, I thot, from his experience with animals. He was highly attuned to the domestic life, blood up to his elbows in February from delivering lambs, and having to shovel manure from the barn regularly, had a regard for the yuck and muck of life. on the other hand, was the sweetest smelling man I ever met, his mother having taught him well to scrub himself clean. of course, as AP pointed out, the pleasures of rural life are offset by the darkness and stress of the same.
Maybe it's my city prejudices coming out.
I tend to have a Marie Antoinette-playing-dairy-maid view of the countryside and
all its denizens.
But still, I can't help what I felt when I read it.
This is probably why I have trouble relating to a lot of Annie Proulx's work.
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One more thing (and thank you Rosewood for opening up this conversation!) - it seems to me that Annie P's men, despite buck teeth, broken noses, etc., and a tendency toward alcoholism, violence, etcetc., are somehow sexually attractive - speaking from a view of reading her Close Range stories, as well as BBMt - does this indicate a woman's p.o.v., I wonder?
You're welcome, m'dear.
Yes, AP's view of men is certainly frank.
I don't, necessarily, find this sexy.
So I guess I sort of disagree.
Where I regard competence and a sense of humor at the top of the masculine list,
I do not, by any stretch of the imagination, regard useless brutality as a welcome trait in a
man, literary or otherwise.
It is obvious, especially in BBM that AP is capable of fondness for her characters.
And that might transmit as sexy under certain circumstances.
She certainly has a very womanly attachment to Ennis Del Mar.
Although she does go so far as to say, years after the fact, that she did fall in
love with both characters.
I believe her.
There's something about Jack Twist, even in the short story, with his buck teeth
and complaining ways, that is almost beguiling. Can't place my finger on it, but maybe
that's where the womanly aspect comes in.
-
One more thing (and thank you Rosewood for opening up this conversation!) - it seems to me that Annie P's men, despite buck teeth, broken noses, etc., and a tendency toward alcoholism, violence, etcetc., are somehow sexually attractive - speaking from a view of reading her Close Range stories, as well as BBMt - does this indicate a woman's p.o.v., I wonder?
You're welcome, m'dear.
Yes, AP's view of men is certainly frank.
I don't, necessarily, find this sexy.
So I guess I sort of disagree.
Where I regard competence and a sense of humor at the top of the masculine list,
I do not, by any stretch of the imagination, regard useless brutality as a welcome trait in a
man, literary or otherwise.
It is obvious, especially in BBM that AP is capable of fondness for her characters.
And that might transmit as sexy under certain circumstances.
She certainly has a very womanly attachment to Ennis Del Mar.
Although she does go so far as to say, years after the fact, that she did fall in
love with both characters.
I believe her.
There's something about Jack Twist, even in the short story, with his buck teeth
and complaining ways, that is almost beguiling. Can't place my finger on it, but maybe
that's where the womanly aspect comes in.
Maybe "beguiling" is the right word: on the other hand, maybe not. "beguile" has the sense of using guile, of allurement, seduction, and altho that is present in the film, I dont see it in the short story. I think the attraction, for me, of both men, is in their male reality, that sometimes, in relation with women, is tempered, tamped down, etcetc. and for male writers, in the "I" mode, simply not perceived.
such an interesing thread!
-
One more thing (and thank you Rosewood for opening up this conversation!) - it seems to me that Annie P's men, despite buck teeth, broken noses, etc., and a tendency toward alcoholism, violence, etcetc., are somehow sexually attractive - speaking from a view of reading her Close Range stories, as well as BBMt - does this indicate a woman's p.o.v., I wonder?
You're welcome, m'dear.
Yes, AP's view of men is certainly frank.
I don't, necessarily, find this sexy.
So I guess I sort of disagree.
Where I regard competence and a sense of humor at the top of the masculine list,
I do not, by any stretch of the imagination, regard useless brutality as a welcome trait in a
man, literary or otherwise.
It is obvious, especially in BBM that AP is capable of fondness for her characters.
And that might transmit as sexy under certain circumstances.
She certainly has a very womanly attachment to Ennis Del Mar.
Although she does go so far as to say, years after the fact, that she did fall in
love with both characters.
I believe her.
There's something about Jack Twist, even in the short story, with his buck teeth
and complaining ways, that is almost beguiling. Can't place my finger on it, but maybe
that's where the womanly aspect comes in.
Maybe "beguiling" is the right word: on the other hand, maybe not. "beguile" has the sense of using guile, of allurement, seduction, and altho that is present in the film, I dont see it in the short story. I think the attraction, for me, of both men, is in their male reality, that sometimes, in relation with women, is tempered, tamped down, etcetc. and for male writers, in the "I" mode, simply not perceived.
such an interesing thread!
But I think it is possible to 'beguile' inspite of oneself.
That's more where I was headed with Jack Twist.
"...to amuse, charm and delight."
I agree, I don't think, in the short story, there's anything to indicate that Jack goes out of his
way to 'lure' Ennis. Though, undoubtedly, there must be some of that going on
subconsciously, as it would be in any burgeoning relationship between two souls who
are mutually attracted to each other.
I think Annie Proulx has an intuitive understanding of whatever it is that draws Ennis
to Jack and vice versa, otherwise BBM wouldn't have worked so effectively as a love story.
I mean, these are not your typical romantic heroes.
And yet, they become so for us.
What is the alchemy?
AP must assume that the reader would have some understanding of hidden attraction.
Though she does not make Jack into a one eyed cyclops, on first glance one would think,
well, what on earth does Ennis see in him? So obviously she is giving us a chance to use
our own imaginations to good effect. Her descriptions of Jack and Ennis are, after all, brisk,
brief and to the absolute minimum point with hardly a romantic flourish in sight.
-
One more thing (and thank you Rosewood for opening up this conversation!) - it seems to me that Annie P's men, despite buck teeth, broken noses, etc., and a tendency toward alcoholism, violence, etcetc., are somehow sexually attractive - speaking from a view of reading her Close Range stories, as well as BBMt - does this indicate a woman's p.o.v., I wonder?
This certainly holds true for 'Postcards' - and to a certain degree 'Shipping News'. But women also tend towards violence - although the often are more manipulative in the procedure (think of the wife of the astronomer in 'Postcards' - she did harm to Blood, but from a distance and with a letter - or the wife of Quoyle in 'Shipping News' - she is harmful to him by her wild, wild ways.). Both of these women were physically attractive, btw. There are not-so-attractive women who are violent as well - the gal in Wamsutter Wolf and the woman in 'Postcards' in New York who threatens to have her husband shoot Blood after he can't perform.
-
One more thing (and thank you Rosewood for opening up this conversation!) - it seems to me that Annie P's men, despite buck teeth, broken noses, etc., and a tendency toward alcoholism, violence, etcetc., are somehow sexually attractive - speaking from a view of reading her Close Range stories, as well as BBMt - does this indicate a woman's p.o.v., I wonder?
You're welcome, m'dear.
Yes, AP's view of men is certainly frank.
I don't, necessarily, find this sexy.
So I guess I sort of disagree.
Where I regard competence and a sense of humor at the top of the masculine list,
I do not, by any stretch of the imagination, regard useless brutality as a welcome trait in a
man, literary or otherwise.
It is obvious, especially in BBM that AP is capable of fondness for her characters.
And that might transmit as sexy under certain circumstances.
She certainly has a very womanly attachment to Ennis Del Mar.
Although she does go so far as to say, years after the fact, that she did fall in
love with both characters.
I believe her.
There's something about Jack Twist, even in the short story, with his buck teeth
and complaining ways, that is almost beguiling. Can't place my finger on it, but maybe
that's where the womanly aspect comes in.
Maybe "beguiling" is the right word: on the other hand, maybe not. "beguile" has the sense of using guile, of allurement, seduction, and altho that is present in the film, I dont see it in the short story. I think the attraction, for me, of both men, is in their male reality, that sometimes, in relation with women, is tempered, tamped down, etcetc. and for male writers, in the "I" mode, simply not perceived.
such an interesing thread!
But I think it is possible to 'beguile' inspite of oneself.
That's more where I was headed with Jack Twist.
"...to amuse, charm and delight."
I agree, I don't think, in the short story, there's anything to indicate that Jack goes out of his
way to 'lure' Ennis. Though, undoubtedly, there must be some of that going on
subconsciously, as it would be in an burgeoning relationship between two souls who
are mutually attracted to each other.
I think Annie Proulx has an intuitive understanding of whatever it is that draws Ennis
to Jack and vice versa, otherwise BBM wouldn't have worked so effectively as a love story.
I mean, these are not your typical romantic heroes.
And yet, they become so for us.
What is the alchemy?
AP must assume that the reader would have some understanding of hidden attraction.
Though she does not make Jack into a one eyed cyclops, on first glance one would think,
well, what on earth does Ennis see in him? So obviously she is giving us a chance to use
our own imaginations to good effect. Her descriptions of Jack and Ennis are, after all, brisk,
brief and to the absolute minimum point with hardly a romantic flourish in sight.
What's the alchemy?
Well, I dont think there is "alchemy". The "hidden attraction" is that they are homosexual, and the relationship develops. Two lonely kids., "glad to have a companion where none was expected. " Jack's attracted to Ennis, noticing he doesnt wear underwear, and socks. Ennis rides "back to the sheep in the "treachurous drunken light", treacherous because his feelings are becoming aroused. When they have sex, it's not a big a deal as it is in the film, or rather, it is more pragmatic, there is not the tenderness and emotional surrender that we see in the film. Their relationship develops because they are primed towards m/m love, and it happens.
It seems to me when we talk about alchemy and so forth, we're avoiding the profound experience of two men realizing their actual selves as gay men in relationship to one another. Indeed, as it happens, falling in love.
-
One more thing (and thank you Rosewood for opening up this conversation!) - it seems to me that Annie P's men, despite buck teeth, broken noses, etc., and a tendency toward alcoholism, violence, etcetc., are somehow sexually attractive - speaking from a view of reading her Close Range stories, as well as BBMt - does this indicate a woman's p.o.v., I wonder?
This certainly holds true for 'Postcards' - and to a certain degree 'Shipping News'. But women also tend towards violence - although the often are more manipulative in the procedure (think of the wife of the astronomer in 'Postcards' - she did harm to Blood, but from a distance and with a letter - or the wife of Quoyle in 'Shipping News' - she is harmful to him by her wild, wild ways.). Both of these women were physically attractive, btw. There are not-so-attractive women who are violent as well - the gal in Wamsutter Wolf and the woman in 'Postcards' in New York who threatens to have her husband shoot Blood after he can't perform.
But are these women who tend toward violence attractive to you, Michael? The abusive Elk Nelson and Diamond Felt who raped his friend's girlfriend in the backseat of the car were attractive to a slew of bucklebunnies and hard-up gals (and AP?) and it seems to me, the readers, as well - in other words, Annie makes them attractive despite their badboy stuff. The women, it seems to me, not.
-
.....What's the alchemy?
Well, I dont think there is "alchemy". The "hidden attraction" is that they are homosexual, and the relationship develops. Two lonely kids., "glad to have a companion where none was expected. " Jack's attracted to Ennis, noticing he doesnt wear underwear, and socks. Ennis rides "back to the sheep in the "treachurous drunken light", treasurous because his feelings are becoming aroused. When they have sex, it's not a big a deal as it is in the film. Their relationship develops because they are primed towards m/m love, and it happens.
It seems to me when we talk about alchemy and so forth, we're avoiding the profound experience of two men realizing their actual selves as gay men in relationship to one another. Indeed, as it happens, falling in love.
...well, what turns base metal into gold?
Some sort of imagined magical power?
What turns what is, essentially, a spur of the moment sexual attraction based, at first glance,
on loneliness, propinquity and personal sexual inclination, into a love of a lifetime?
What is the magical power?
Unlike you, I suppose I believe in that sort of power being at play in BBM.
BBM is more, to me, than just two guys exploring their sexuality and falling into a relationship.
The 'afterwards' of the story tells me that.
In many ways, BBM is a story of how life can still catch even the most wary by surprise.
But I don't believe it is necessarily a story of self realization or self actualization.
Fancifully, I look at what happens to Jack and Ennis as 'base metal turned to gold'.
But as usual, that's the romantic in me.
So, of course, it is probably suspect. ;)
Certainly Annie Proulx would probably scoff at my view.
And again I say, I am probably NOT her typical reader.
-
Fancifully, I look at what happens to Jack and Ennis as 'base metal turned to gold'.
But as usual, that's the romantic in me.
So, of course, it is probably suspect. ;)
Certainly Annie Proulx would probably scoff at my view.
And again I say, I am probably NOT her typical reader.
Well I dunno about Annie, I doubt that she would scoff at your view; neither do I. We are probably talking about the same thing using diffrent language. I just dont want to avoid or override the profound experience of opening up to same sex love and consequences of that which I feel is the deepest urge of the story. this point was made in a number of the original commentaries on the film and I think it's an important one.
-
But are these women who tend toward violence attractive to you, Michael? The abusive Elk Nelson and Diamond Felt who raped his friend's girlfriend in the backseat of the car were attractive to a slew of bucklebunnies and hard-up gals (and AP?) and it seems to me, the readers, as well - in other words, Annie makes them attractive despite their badboy stuff. The women, it seems to me, not.
Well...Petal is certainly meant to be attractive in spite of her badgirl stuff in 'The Shipping News'. She gets Quoyle to marry her. Vernita Rainwater is supposed to be attractive (if cold and controlling) in Postcards too. Petal is physically violent with Quoyle, whereas Vernita's violence is by manipulation.
-
A page or so back, I was attempting to suggest that men, like women,expend considerable energy in their relationships, but often express their feelings differently, sometimes more physically (e.g., the film scene when Ennis squats in the alley, retching and pounding the wall.) Men tend to have fewer words and more muscle and women more words and less muscle, and both use their strengths as weapons against each other sometimes. (When it comes to spousal murders I guess husbands are the killers most often, but there's no shortage of ladies who off their significant others. Hmm...maybe relatively more of them get away with it, too - you have to wonder. )
Anyhow, "attractiveness" and "violence" seem to be intersecting here. So please, what do you all mean when talking of "attractive" characters? People you can imagine having sex with? People you can imagine lounging in a Starbucks with? Something else?
With regard to how Annie's Ennis and Jack might have looked to each other: well, one of the songs I put on a Brokeback-inspired CD was the Cowboy Junkies' "Darkling Days;" its refrain is something I think she knows:
The beautiful is not chosen.
The chosen becomes beautiful.
-
....Really, I don't think Annie Proulx has shown any sensitivity to "women's matters" that a male writer couldn't. (In fact, you could say that her description of the DelMar bedroom "full of the smell of old blood and milk and baby shit, and the sounds ... of squalling and sucking and Alma's sleepy groans, all reassuring of fecundity and life's continuance to one who worked with animals" is resolutely unsentimental and unappealing, even as it gives Ennis affirmation in his husbandly role.
This is one of the very few passages in the short story which, unaccountably, annoyed me.
Maybe because it occurred to me that AP was bending over backwards to appear as unsentimental
as possible when viewing married family life through Ennis's eyes. Yeah, okay. I 'get' what she's
doing. But there is a tremendous 'ick' factor working here that I found unnecessarily brutal to
the moment. These are not farm animals in a barn, though AP may want us to think that Ennis views
it as such.
In fact, it is almost as if a detached anthropologist were viewing the scene and commenting.
Ennis as anthropologist doesn't work for me.
This is a moment when the author probably stepped in to interpret for her character.
And it is noticable.
Rosewood, I liked this; maybe because I was married to a Yankee farmer who knew cows, babies, and women - said with pride he could birth a baby if call'd upon, he knew what to do. Knew "what women liked" because, I thot, from his experience with animals. He was highly attuned to the domestic life, blood up to his elbows in February from delivering lambs, and having to shovel manure from the barn regularly, had a regard for the yuck and muck of life. on the other hand, was the sweetest smelling man I ever met, his mother having taught him well to scrub himself clean. of course, as AP pointed out, the pleasures of rural life are offset by the darkness and stress of the same.
Sorry Rosewood, the original quote wasn't yours but it all got too technical for my tiny brain.
As someone who's had too many kids and who just loves the whole birthing process, I adore this passage. It anchors Ennis right in the middle of his father/mother duality. The boy who lost his mother, the man who "fathers" his lover (by representing Jack's father in Jack's eyes) while he's actually giving him motherlove in the DE, the good father to his girls, the man who knows how to husband animals even if he can't husband his wife (but full marks for trying - his manual stimulation may be distracted but it's quite SNAGgy for 1960s Wyoming)
-
The passage regarding the birthing bedroom and it's smells, to me, seems a very realistic landmark in the life of a rural husband/father. They live with all sorts of organic smells, and learn to 'sniff the air' to see if something is spoiled or fresh, right or wrong. The role, and his life, 'smell' right to Ennis; and he is reassured of not getting tire ironed because he has children and a wife-and now has a family to replace his lost one. Plus, we know livestock is slaughtered innocently, just like Earl. So Ennis has several reasons to find this reassuring, I think.
I think that is very insightful, but not sure a male writer would venture into such detail, about the suckling and squalling. It is just a part of life-but AP knew we needed to see what made Ennis's boat float.
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Anyhow, "attractiveness" and "violence" seem to be intersecting here. So please, what do you all mean when talking of "attractive" characters? People you can imagine having sex with? People you can imagine lounging in a Starbucks with? Something else?
Well... as I was talking about Annie's female characters, I'll use this passage from 'The Shipping News' to point out what I was talking about as attractive and female in her work:
"Then, at a meeting, Petal Bear. Thin, moist, hot. Winked at him. Quoyle had the big man's yearning for small women. He stood next to her at the refreshment table. Grey eyes close together, curly hair the color of oak. The fluorescent light made her as pale as candle wax. Her eyes gleamed with some dusky unguent. A metallic thread in her rose sweater. These faint sparks cast a shimmer on her like a spill of light. She smiled, the pearl tinted lips wet with cider."
She's not someone I can imagine having sex with...but I certainly can see that Quoyle would want too.
-
...
Well... as I was talking about Annie's female characters, I'll use this passage from 'The Shipping News' to point out what I was talking about as attractive and female in her work:
"Then, at a meeting, Petal Bear. Thin, moist, hot. Winked at him. Quoyle had the big man's yearning for small women. He stood next to her at the refreshment table. Grey eyes close together, curly hair the color of oak. The fluorescent light made her as pale as candle wax. Her eyes gleamed with some dusky unguent. A metallic thread in her rose sweater. These faint sparks cast a shimmer on her like a spill of light. She smiled, the pearl tinted lips wet with cider."
She's not someone I can imagine having sex with...but I certainly can see that Quoyle would want too.
What a great example! I hadn't read the words before, but (even without the sentence re Quoyle's preferences) Proulx establishes the sexual attraction she exudes. And you're talking about this quality within the confines of the story.
Which establishes, then, that different posters are using the concept of attractiveness differently. Some posts move outside the story and - for example - express moral disapproval of the characters' actions, and others suggest that the women aren't very good-looking as Annie describes them (as opposed to how her other characters perceive them).
Thanks.
-
...
Well... as I was talking about Annie's female characters, I'll use this passage from 'The Shipping News' to point out what I was talking about as attractive and female in her work:
"Then, at a meeting, Petal Bear. Thin, moist, hot. Winked at him. Quoyle had the big man's yearning for small women. He stood next to her at the refreshment table. Grey eyes close together, curly hair the color of oak. The fluorescent light made her as pale as candle wax. Her eyes gleamed with some dusky unguent. A metallic thread in her rose sweater. These faint sparks cast a shimmer on her like a spill of light. She smiled, the pearl tinted lips wet with cider."
She's not someone I can imagine having sex with...but I certainly can see that Quoyle would want too.
What a great example! I hadn't read the words before, but (even without the sentence re Quoyle's preferences) Proulx establishes the sexual attraction she exudes. And you're talking about this quality within the confines of the story.
Which establishes, then, that different posters are using the concept of attractiveness differently. Some posts move outside the story and - for example - express moral disapproval of the characters' actions, and others suggest that the women aren't very good-looking as Annie describes them (as opposed to how her other characters perceive them).
Thanks.
I'd like to quote another example alongside Michael's yes excellent one. This one description of a "more than attractive" (according to Georgina) male, from the story "The Indian Wars Refought"
"Then suddenly she remarried, her surprise choice the ranch foreman, Charlie Parrott, considerably younger than she and part Oglala Sioux, or so he claimed, though she figured Mexican and something else was in there, but what of it? Parrott, with a tight, hard body and buttocks like cantelopes, had a long swatch of black hair, glittering black eyes behind wire-rimmed glasses. His sad, big face and frog-wide mouth did not go with his body but the low voice pulled things together. . . Charlie was not a great fan of polo, but horses liked him for his quiet, slow movements, his silence, his affection, felt more than observed. Georgina liked him for some of the same reasons. . . .
"Georgina found Charlie Parrott more than attractive. . . once Charlie got going he was insatiable and she found herself heated to the point of abandoned vulgarity.
"Look at this," she would say and haul up her nightgown.
"Take that damn thing off." And he was on her like a falling I-beam."
I admire especially the line "the low voice pulled things together".
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Billy is plenty cute, but there is something about her manner that is just as important in making her fatally attatractive to Loyal. A boldness? She takes charge. So does Petal, I guess.
-
Billy is plenty cute, but there is something about her manner that is just as important in making her fatally attatractive to Loyal. A boldness? She takes charge. So does Petal, I guess.
Seems to me in APs portrait of Petal, she's tending toward explicit sexual imagry, wet, moist, hot, petal, rose-colord sweater, wet lips, pearl-tinted lips, a wink is also sexual.
Billy also; the association with fox seems sexual. Doesnt DHLawrence have something to say bout that? Also the color red, with Billy. You sense her as being "hot and wet" and also a tease, a streak of cruelty. She is "using" her sexuality, not, as with some other of Annie's women, desperately as "their only playing card", but as bait. The fox out-foxed?
-
With regard to how Annie's Ennis and Jack might have looked to each other: well, one of the songs I put on a Brokeback-inspired CD was the Cowboy Junkies' "Darkling Days;" its refrain is something I think she knows:
The beautiful is not chosen.
The chosen becomes beautiful.
A great line, Castro: and true!
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Also the color red, with Billy.
Her sharp little nails, like bloodied claws? And the strawberries. Strawberries are interesting in Postcards, aren't they.
-
Billy is plenty cute, but there is something about her manner that is just as important in making her fatally attatractive to Loyal. A boldness? She takes charge. So does Petal, I guess.
Seems to me in APs portrait of Petal, she's tending toward explicit sexual imagry, wet, moist, hot, petal, rose-colord sweater, wet lips, pearl-tinted lips, a wink is also sexual.
Billy also; the association with fox seems sexual. Doesnt DHLawrence have something to say bout that? Also the color red, with Billy. You sense her as being "hot and wet" and also a tease, a streak of cruelty. She is "using" her sexuality, not, as with some other of Annie's women, desperately as "their only playing card", but as bait. The fox out-foxed?
*SPOILER WARNING FOR SHIPPING NEWS* (although it is minor)....
Billy and Petal share another trait in common - they both are made quick work of in both books - for most of the action neither of them are around (so they're both 'outfoxed' in the most lethal of ways). Other attractive women do wind up being around till the end of novels, however. Pala makes it to the end of 'Postcards' - and Dub was quite taken with her.
-
Billy is plenty cute, but there is something about her manner that is just as important in making her fatally attatractive to Loyal. A boldness? She takes charge. So does Petal, I guess.
Seems to me in APs portrait of Petal, she's tending toward explicit sexual imagry, wet, moist, hot, petal, rose-colord sweater, wet lips, pearl-tinted lips, a wink is also sexual.
Billy also; the association with fox seems sexual. Doesnt DHLawrence have something to say bout that? Also the color red, with Billy. You sense her as being "hot and wet" and also a tease, a streak of cruelty. She is "using" her sexuality, not, as with some other of Annie's women, desperately as "their only playing card", but as bait. The fox out-foxed?
*SPOILER WARNING FOR SHIPPING NEWS* (although it is minor)....
Billy and Petal share another trait in common - they both are made quick work of in both books - for most of the action neither of them are around (so they're both 'outfoxed' in the most lethal of ways). Other attractive women do wind up being around till the end of novels, however. Pala makes it to the end of 'Postcards' - and Dub was quite taken with her.
Well, I always thot Dub was a sell-out, coulda been named Dud. Pala another one with blood on her claws?
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Pala another one with blood on her claws?
What was that sinister Cuban connection, anyway? But yah, Pala wore the pants in that office, and in the house. You don't like that? (just trolling here, never mind)
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Pala another one with blood on her claws?
What was that sinister Cuban connection, anyway? But yah, Pala wore the pants in that office, and in the house. You don't like that? (just trolling here, never mind)
The woman does the dirty work, the guy coasts. Maybe I don't remember the story correctly. ? But we're thinkin' about: what does Annie think, right? Me, I dunno. :P
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Pala had blood on her claws, but not Dub's blood.
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Playitagain said, of the refrain of "Darkling Days":
A great line, Castro: and true!
Yeah. And remember the lines in Brokeback about those first weeks of lovemaking?:There were only the two of them on the mountain flying in the euphoric bitter air, looking down on the hawk's back and the crawling lights of vehicles on the plain below, suspended above ordinary affairs and distant from tame ranch dogs barking in the dark hours.
These verses somehow evoked that passage for me:
Lie with me upon the earth
feel its curve beneath our spines,
soon we'll follow it around,
one lost soul
finally found
The beautiful is not chosen.
The chosen becomes beautiful
These are known as darkling days
rhyming schemes gone askew,
crackling gifts of light and air,
exploding worlds,
ours to share
- Cowboy Junkies, "Darkling Days"
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Funny.
You know who else loves Basho and, in fact,
quotes him (I'm assuming it's a man)
in the first book of his detective thriller series: Robert Crais.
Wide influence, I'd say. ;)
Well, thinking of Basho: Annie loves a landscape, and is she ever adept at the quick sketch.
And they share the theme of impermanence.
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....Really, I don't think Annie Proulx has shown any sensitivity to "women's matters" that a male writer couldn't. (In fact, you could say that her description of the DelMar bedroom "full of the smell of old blood and milk and baby shit, and the sounds ... of squalling and sucking and Alma's sleepy groans, all reassuring of fecundity and life's continuance to one who worked with animals" is resolutely unsentimental and unappealing, even as it gives Ennis affirmation in his husbandly role.
This is one of the very few passages in the short story which, unaccountably, annoyed me.
Maybe because it occurred to me that AP was bending over backwards to appear as unsentimental
as possible when viewing married family life through Ennis's eyes. Yeah, okay. I 'get' what she's
doing. But there is a tremendous 'ick' factor working here that I found unnecessarily brutal to
the moment. These are not farm animals in a barn, though AP may want us to think that Ennis views
it as such.
In fact, it is almost as if a detached anthropologist were viewing the scene and commenting.
Ennis as anthropologist doesn't work for me.
This is a moment when the author probably stepped in to interpret for her character.
And it is noticable.
Rosewood, I liked this; maybe because I was married to a Yankee farmer who knew cows, babies, and women - said with pride he could birth a baby if call'd upon, he knew what to do. Knew "what women liked" because, I thot, from his experience with animals. He was highly attuned to the domestic life, blood up to his elbows in February from delivering lambs, and having to shovel manure from the barn regularly, had a regard for the yuck and muck of life. on the other hand, was the sweetest smelling man I ever met, his mother having taught him well to scrub himself clean. of course, as AP pointed out, the pleasures of rural life are offset by the darkness and stress of the same.
And I think AP is writing Ennis' feelings. He's not intellectualizing. it's a gut emotion.
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Pala had blood on her claws, but not Dub's blood.
Ive no quarrel with Pala. Nor women who "wear the pants" in a m/f relationship.
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Smells: Every few years the media get all giddy over new research that repeats the conclusion of numerous previous: People's body odors can be sexy and evocative. They're doing it now.
Proulx mentions environmental smells a lot. But she also uses the power of personal scents in two highly emotional scenes of Brokeback. First, at the apartment reunion: "He could smell Jack - the intensely familiar odor of cigarettes, musky sweat and a faint sweetness like grass, and with it the rushing cold of the mountain." Then years later, up at Lightning Flats, when he finds the two shirts: "He pressed his face into the fabric and breathed in slowly through his mouth and nose, hoping for the faintest smoke and mountain sage and salty sweet stink of Jack but there was no real scent, only the memory of it..."
(I think the film made a small mistake in having Ennis sniff his daughter's sweater before he put it away - would have been different had it belong to a dead child, etc., but here, it seemed false. I suppose this was part of Lee's intention to have a "redemptive" ending.)
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Ive no quarrel with Pala.
Re blood on claws: Some relative of Pala's was there where the Miami Bloods went on a canoe ride. Somehow, he seemed like a knee-breaker to me. I had had the thought that, in acquiring the Disney World land package, a few offers may have had to be made, that no one could refuse.
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Smells: Every few years the media get all giddy over new research that repeats the conclusion of numerous previous: People's body odors can be sexy and evocative. They're doing it now.
Proulx mentions environmental smells a lot. But she also uses the power of personal scents in two highly emotional scenes of Brokeback. First, at the apartment reunion: "He could smell Jack - the intensely familiar odor of cigarettes, musky sweat and a faint sweetness like grass, and with it the rushing cold of the mountain." Then years later, up at Lightning Flats, when he finds the two shirts: "He pressed his face into the fabric and breathed in slowly through his mouth and nose, hoping for the faintest smoke and mountain sage and salty sweet stink of Jack but there was no real scent, only the memory of it..."
(I think the film made a small mistake in having Ennis sniff his daughter's sweater before he put it away - would have been different had it belong to a dead child, etc., but here, it seemed false. I suppose this was part of Lee's intention to have a "redemptive" ending.)
It didn't surprise me that Ennis, as a father, might smell the sweater.
I still love the smell of my daughter and she's thirty six. You never get over your own
children's unique fragrance.
Very basic and fundamental, I think.
I didn't think it false, just, perhaps, extraneous.
Still, it didn't bother me overmuch.
It gives us a clue that Ennis is, perhaps, not dead yet.
And yes, you may be right that it is an Ang Lee message.
So I could have done without it.
Anything that takes away from Ennis's complete concentration on Jack
annoys me.
And yes, again you're right about the evocative way Annie Proulx uses
scent. Jack is never more fully captured than in those moments when we
scent him through Ennis.
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Smells: Every few years the media get all giddy over new research that repeats the conclusion of numerous previous: People's body odors can be sexy and evocative. They're doing it now.
Proulx mentions environmental smells a lot. But she also uses the power of personal scents in two highly emotional scenes of Brokeback. First, at the apartment reunion: "He could smell Jack - the intensely familiar odor of cigarettes, musky sweat and a faint sweetness like grass, and with it the rushing cold of the mountain." Then years later, up at Lightning Flats, when he finds the two shirts: "He pressed his face into the fabric and breathed in slowly through his mouth and nose, hoping for the faintest smoke and mountain sage and salty sweet stink of Jack but there was no real scent, only the memory of it..."
(I think the film made a small mistake in having Ennis sniff his daughter's sweater before he put it away - would have been different had it belong to a dead child, etc., but here, it seemed false. I suppose this was part of Lee's intention to have a "redemptive" ending.)
I think the filmwriters picked up APs use of the sense of smell very well. Ennis in the film is a real sniffer - note how he sniffs his shirt to be sure its clean as he packs it into his duffle bag preparing to meet Jack. I agree that sniffing the daugther's sweater was pressing the point: hey, Ang, I get it! And sorta dissipates the strength of the m/m sniffing. The motel scene with Jack turning his head into Ennis's hair was another that I call a sniffing scene: everytime I see it, I think, oh my! can you imagine how good Ennis must have smelled to Jack! (four years! damn!)
Annie's writing is very sensual.
I asked a gay friend if he thought a gay man would have done this story better: his surprising (to me) reply was that there would have been more political baggage and less sensitivity. Hmmm! Im sure many would argue with this. What dyou guys think?
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Here is a link to a substantial profile of Annie Proulx and her work in The Guardian. It fleshes out a number of aspects of her pesonality, life and writing out in more detail than I've come across before. It includes some material on her being a woman writer, her treatment of male and female characters and her relationships with men.
http://books.guardian.co.uk/departments/generalfiction/story/0,,1371261,00.html
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Here is a link to a substantial profile of Annie Proulx and her work in The Guardian. It fleshes out a number of aspects of her pesonality, life and writing out in more detail than I've come across before. It includes some material on her being a woman writer, her treatment of male and female characters and her relationships with men.
http://books.guardian.co.uk/departments/generalfiction/story/0,,1371261,00.html
AHA!!! So he did rape her!
Great article Tony - thanks so much!
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I asked a gay friend if he thought a gay man would have done this story better: his surprising (to me) reply was that there would have been more political baggage and less sensitivity. Hmmm! Im sure many would argue with this. What dyou guys think?
I actually think it took someone like AP to write this story, in just this way. BBM, while in my mind definately a story with gay love at its core, is told in such a way that goes beyond the political times of our day, without losing the heart and truth of the story. While this is not a "message" movie to my thinking, it is still a brutally honest indictment of homophobia, without ever becoming a preachy sermon.
Many things converged, it seems, in the birth of this story. You have AP who is old enough to remember the times of the 50s and 60s and what the social climate of America was, even if she was or wasn't intimately familiar with the plight of gay people then. Secondly, her interest in rural life and people, economics, male perspective or life experiences, her evident interest in the undercurrents of human realities, and her attention to detail, all contribute to the foundational elements of this story. Third, her perspective as a straight woman, wondering what life would be like for gay men in this context, coupled with her attention to detail, probably caused her to do some real inner searching in order to "get it right." A genuine and willful effort to put oneself in the "shoes" of another, as the old adage goes.
In my view, what you have here is the result of someone really, intentionally, peeling away layers of political intentions and social ideologies, pro and con, to get at the underlying human truths in this experience. And yes, one of those truths is that homophobia is indeed destructive. That she was able to tell this story so "dead on" from the perspective of rural gay people is truly awesome, and is a testament to her skill as a writer and observer of humanity. More than that, BBM is a fine example of what can result when hetero people genuinely undertake to understand what life for the "non-hetero" world is like, right under their noses, if you willl. Lastly, I think AP's being a woman who was married with kids, and her stated feelings of that not being for her (marriage), her desire for her own personal freedom, and her propensity to write about male characters were all key in the convergence of elements that birthed Brokeback Mountain.
Yes, there are gay people out there who think only gay people can truly write about or describe the gay experience. These are often the same ones who think only gay actors should portray gay characters etc etc. I do not agree, and I think the proof is in the product, in this case. We have to remember that for people like the characters Ennis and Jack, their experiences were played out in the context of a very hetero world; all of the cultural markers or realities that we gay people now have simply weren't there. Gay critics of this story always bring up the Stonewall riots of 1969, with something like "they could have left that damn state if they wanted to!! maybe not at first but sooner or later!!" Easier said than done.
Any gay person who has experienced the sense of powerlessness that isolation brings in the very hetero rural world, and the resultant self loathing and denial, as well as the financial inability to do anything about it, will probably agree that making a change is difficult, and at times, seemingly impossible in the extreme case, unless you are able to simply walk away. How many heteros have had to consider walking away from their worlds, families, and basically everything they have ever known, in order to assert their right to love? A few, probably, in the instance of say, family disapproval of a partner choice. But even those go to a world that is welcoming or doesn't mind or care who they love. For these kinds of hetero people, there is no internalized negative world view to battle with, despite the hardship at hand.
The world you internalize growing up is not so easily changed regardless of the changes in the external world around you. That goes for anything I think. Actually, AP did give us a strong sense of "what might have been" in the character of Jack; but she remained true to the experience of those gay people of the era (and some now) who, like Ennis, refuse to take that one step to freedom, either because they are too afraid or just can't see beyond their current circumstances.
I agree with one of the members who said that we shouldn't forget that this story, and the voice it gave to so many, began with Annie Proulx and her curiousity about a lone man sitting in a bar, long before Hollywood and its players became involved, though they took it to another level and did so beautifully. There would be no Brokeback Mountain, story or film, without the writer, the woman, Annie Proulx. No Heath as Ennis and Jake as Jack groupies fawning over eyelashes, muscles, and whatnot, fun as that may be for some. There's my two cents on the topic.
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...
http://books.guardian.co.uk/departments/generalfiction/story/0,,1371261,00.html
Thanks so very much for this link. I'd read the article online when it came out, but it's way more meaningful now. Partly, I guess, because not everyone agrees with things I'd unthinkingly assumed about Proulx and her writing, and I find support here for my conclusions!
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I agree with one of the members who said that we shouldn't forget that this story, and the voice it gave to so many, began with Annie Proulx and her curiousity about a lone man sitting in a bar, long before Hollywood and its players became involved, though they took it to another level and did so beautifully.
Your post, entire, is a fine tribute to Annie P, LSky94; and thank you so much for your thoughtful response to my question.
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Here is a link to a substantial profile of Annie Proulx and her work in The Guardian. It fleshes out a number of aspects of her pesonality, life and writing out in more detail than I've come across before. It includes some material on her being a woman writer, her treatment of male and female characters and her relationships with men.
http://books.guardian.co.uk/departments/generalfiction/story/0,,1371261,00.html
AHA!!! So he did rape her!
Great article Tony - thanks so much!
Michael, remember how we hashed this rape/no rape out in 'Postcards'??
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Playitagain said
I agree that sniffing the daugther's sweater was pressing the point: hey, Ang, I get it! And sorta dissipates the strength of the m/m sniffing. ...
Yes. I guess that's what bothers me. The physical bond between the two men has kept its youthful strength throughout the years (probably because they never cohabited), but its significance is somewhat diluted by the film's AlmaJr. sweater thing. And there was simply no need to reinforce Ennis's affection for her.
(This may no longer be the case, but three or four years back I was wondering why slash writers so rarely invoked the erotic power of smell..).
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Thanks Tony -- great article -- I learned some new things about Annie -- will add this to my 'Annie file.'
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Another interesting article from 'The Guardian' in March 2006 titled 'Blood on the Red Carpet' is Annie's take on the Oscar awards. She ends by writing For those who call this little piece a Sour Grapes Rant, play it as it lays. I love her take-it-or-leave-it attitude!
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AHA!!! So he did rape her!
Michael, remember how we hashed this rape/no rape out in 'Postcards'??
Well, I certainly do!
From the way the article was written, looks to me as if the Guardian author (Aida Edemariam!) herself has decided it was rape, rather than reporting AP's 'opinion.' Maybe I'm misreading.
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AHA!!! So he did rape her!
Michael, remember how we hashed this rape/no rape out in 'Postcards'??
Well, I certainly do!
From the way the article was written, looks to me as if the Guardian author (Aida Edemariam!) herself has decided it was rape, rather than reporting AP's 'opinion.' Maybe I'm misreading.
No Dal -- I got that too! Wouldn't it have been interesting to have Aida Edemariam on our book club in July -- wonder if she would have changed her viewpoint? Critics can't all be right.
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AHA!!! So he did rape her!
Michael, remember how we hashed this rape/no rape out in 'Postcards'??
Well, I certainly do!
From the way the article was written, looks to me as if the Guardian author (Aida Edemariam!) herself has decided it was rape, rather than reporting AP's 'opinion.' Maybe I'm misreading.
I concluded the same, Dal and Nikki! Also, I had a feeling this was not an in-person interview, despite descriptions of APs house. She seemed to me to be putting together bits and pieces from various sources. & making some lazy generalizations about APs work.
Not that I didnt think it was a good piece, with some interesting new insights and material, for me.
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Michael, remember how we hashed this rape/no rape out in 'Postcards'??
Well, we talked about it a lot, but there was still a lot of dissent (rough sex v. rape). It would seem to me that Annie wouldn't put her name on this article if she didn't agree with the author. This just struck me as being definite.
Okay...and now I've read your comments following Nikki's and could see it either way. Rats. >:(
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"Aida Edemariam" is such an Annie Proulx name, that I suspect... I suspect.... well I don't know what, exactly, but after "The Contest", I suspect everyone and everything.
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"Aida Edemariam" is such an Annie Proulx name, that I suspect... I suspect.... well I don't know what, exactly, but after "The Contest", I suspect everyone and everything.
I think it's just a happy coincidence, Dal. I googled her, and she's a journalist. As to whether she actually met Proulx (some above have been sceptical), I think that if she didn't, she had input from people who had. Certainly what she had to say doesn't appear to have been cribbed from known sources as of 2004 - and you have to remember that while Proulx had achieved some celebrity as a writer at that point, she received vastly more attention from the general media after the movie buzz began.
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I trust everyone. I trust no one.
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Your post, entire, is a fine tribute to Annie P, LSky94; and thank you so much for your thoughtful response to my question.
You're welcome :)
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"Aida Edemariam" is such an Annie Proulx name, that I suspect... I suspect.... well I don't know what, exactly, but after "The Contest", I suspect everyone and everything.
I think it's just a happy coincidence, Dal. I googled her, and she's a journalist. As to whether she actually met Proulx (some above have been sceptical), I think that if she didn't, she had input from people who had. Certainly what she had to say doesn't appear to have been cribbed from known sources as of 2004 - and you have to remember that while Proulx had achieved some celebrity as a writer at that point, she received vastly more attention from the general media after the movie buzz began.
She did pick up bio details straight from the AP bio I have in my files.
AIDA? Feel like Im in a Nabakov novel.
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..She did pick up bio details straight from the AP bio I have in my files.
...
Do you have a link to that that one? I know I hadn't seen the information about Proulx's decor, nor plans for the newer house. Or alternatively, are there other details that you haven't found elsewhere, and could quote for all of us here? Thanks!
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..She did pick up bio details straight from the AP bio I have in my files.
...
Do you have a link to that that one? I know I hadn't seen the information about Proulx's decor, nor plans for the newer house. Or alternatively, are there other details that you haven't found elsewhere, and could quote for all of us here? Thanks!
Hi Castro, here is the link to the biographical info that I assume is straight from the horse's mouth: www.annieproulx.com/bio.html
the info about AP's decor is new to me, but because the journalist seems to cull from all sources, and she is a Brit, which would make an in-person interview more difficuit, I guess I am guessing, perhaps cynically, that she culled this from various sources rather than face to face.
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Hi Castro, here is the link to the biographical info that I assume is straight from the horse's mouth: www.annieproulx.com/bio.html
Yes, Playitagain, that's indeed from the horse' mouth - it's the autobiographical section from her website. While it's neither here no there, presumably she's pretty consistent in what she says about her antecedents and upbringing, and has provided the information to many groups and individuals. (I've no idea how long the site has been up - there's one section devoted to BBMt, but the others could have been up prior to 2004.)
Edemariam pretty clearly indicates when she's quoting from sources other than Proulx ("elsewhere she has said," etc.) OTOH, the physical details - the landscape, the fire, the scale model of the new house - are written as though she'd experienced them . Certainly I don't find it unimaginable that a Brit would manage to cross the pond and stop by to visit Proulx - though given Proulx's reputation, it might not have been a heart-warming experience.
God knows we've all been exposed to dishonest journalism in recent years, but I don't see what there is to make this article so suspect. I hadn't seen some of the material before, so was hoping there might be more. Again, I really appreciate it's being linked here.
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Smells: Every few years the media get all giddy over new research that repeats the conclusion of numerous previous: People's body odors can be sexy and evocative. They're doing it now.
Proulx mentions environmental smells a lot. But she also uses the power of personal scents in two highly emotional scenes of Brokeback. First, at the apartment reunion: "He could smell Jack - the intensely familiar odor of cigarettes, musky sweat and a faint sweetness like grass, and with it the rushing cold of the mountain." Then years later, up at Lightning Flats, when he finds the two shirts: "He pressed his face into the fabric and breathed in slowly through his mouth and nose, hoping for the faintest smoke and mountain sage and salty sweet stink of Jack but there was no real scent, only the memory of it..."
(I think the film made a small mistake in having Ennis sniff his daughter's sweater before he put it away - would have been different had it belong to a dead child, etc., but here, it seemed false. I suppose this was part of Lee's intention to have a "redemptive" ending.)
I think the filmwriters picked up APs use of the sense of smell very well. Ennis in the film is a real sniffer - note how he sniffs his shirt to be sure its clean as he packs it into his duffle bag preparing to meet Jack. I agree that sniffing the daugther's sweater was pressing the point: hey, Ang, I get it! And sorta dissipates the strength of the m/m sniffing. The motel scene with Jack turning his head into Ennis's hair was another that I call a sniffing scene: everytime I see it, I think, oh my! can you imagine how good Ennis must have smelled to Jack! (four years! damn!)
Annie's writing is very sensual.
I asked a gay friend if he thought a gay man would have done this story better: his surprising (to me) reply was that there would have been more political baggage and less sensitivity. Hmmm! Im sure many would argue with this. What dyou guys think?
PIA-yes, AP's writing is very sensual-and people are; that is where she lives, I think, in the very real realties of human nature, ugly and beautiful.
I wonder if your friend sensed that being objective might be difficult-AP approaches this story almost from a standpoint of being awestruck at the immensity of this story-it is no less epic in its tragedy for being about one man and the few people in his life, including the one that in effect, got away.And I see an almost reverential distancing, in the hopes of getting it truly right. Her success is so thorough it actually proves very painful for mose of us, gay or not.
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And I see an almost reverential distancing, in the hopes of getting it truly right. Her success is so thorough it actually proves very painful for mose of us, gay or not.
Yup, I think you've snagged at least a piece of it: for my friend, it was "sacred text" and he didnt want to talk about it for a long while. For me: in a way, the same. I want to get it right.
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And I see an almost reverential distancing, in the hopes of getting it truly right. Her success is so thorough it actually proves very painful for mose of us, gay or not.
Yup, I think you've snagged at least a piece of it: for my friend, it was "sacred text" and he didnt want to talk about it for a long while. For me: in a way, the same. I want to get it right.
I wrote my reply to you, then read the article Tony thoughfully posted, and AP is quoted by another author as wanting to get it right.!! ;D ;D I am guessing I've heard her say this somewhere before....
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I really appreciate it's being linked here.
Me too.
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...
I've written a fanfic, in which Cordelia turns out to have faked her own death. Then she runs off with Laertes.
Dal, that's downright wicked. But if you're gonna cross plays, I suggest that Mercutio would have been a hell of a lot better choice. That way you could have both of them resurrected!
ETA: Ministering Angel said:What we don't have a lot of in terms of history, is women writing men. Female writers have tended to concentrate on their female characters - Scarlett O'Hara, Jane Eyre, Maggie Tolliver, etc. There aren't that many books which simply deal with men. AP is different in that respect. She does it and she does it well. At least, I assume she does it well since that's what the men say.
....Really, I don't think Annie Proulx has shown any sensitivity to "women's matters" that a male writer couldn't. (In fact, you could say that her description of the DelMar bedroom "full of the smell of old blood and milk and baby shit, and the sounds ... of squalling and sucking and Alma's sleepy groans, all reassuring of fecundity and life's continuance to one who worked with animals" is resolutely unsentimental and unappealing, even as it gives Ennis affirmation in his husbandly role.
This is one of the very few passages in the short story which, unaccountably, annoyed me.
Maybe because it occurred to me that AP was bending over backwards to appear as unsentimental
as possible when viewing married family life through Ennis's eyes. Yeah, okay. I 'get' what she's
doing. But there is a tremendous 'ick' factor working here that I found unnecessarily brutal to
the moment. These are not farm animals in a barn, though AP may want us to think that Ennis views
it as such.
In fact, it is almost as if a detached anthropologist were viewing the scene and commenting.
Ennis as anthropologist doesn't work for me.
This is a moment when the author probably stepped in to interpret for her character.
And it is noticable.
I found this paragraph odd until seeing rural life up close for the first times in many a year. And then I got it. No ick factor. No sentimentalism. Just a certain purity, a certain reality that you don't get in a sanitised city.
This is indescribably beautiful, I don't think any other writer, male or female, could have done it just this way or just as well. Look at the contruction of that description:
"full of the smell of old blood and milk and baby shit, and the sounds ... of squalling and sucking and Alma's sleepy groans, all reassuring of fecundity and life's continuance to one who worked with animals" ...
It connects two worlds in a way most city dwellers never see or think about. The relative merits of animal or human aren't being brought into play, the theme is continuity and family,a life lived in close proximity to the animals one cares for. For there ARE similarities between human and animal. To me this short description brings together all the uncertaincies of life into one package; it is one of the few places in the entire short story which have any sense of happiness attained by either character in ANYTHING.
Ennis did love his daughters. To me it points that out; it shows his pride as a father; it enhances the sense of one generation following the other in a timeless dance within the difficult natural world Ennis and his forbears inhabited. To me it's one of the bluntest most beautiful descriptions in the book.
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The beautiful is not chosen.
The chosen becomes beautiful.
Whoa. Yes. Absolutely.
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I just read the Guardian article. If the author states she met AP 'the day i met with her', why disbelieve it? Basic info can be gotten anywhere, and should be. What's in that article sounds person to person, to me at least.
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The beautiful is not chosen.
The chosen becomes beautiful.
Whoa. Yes. Absolutely.
Please excuse brief OT - but - I think Miles from Our Home has some of Michael Timmins's best songs. It fairly makes my hair stand on end when sister Margo, she of the ethereal voice, sings "Good Friday": What will I tell you/ when you ask me why I'm crying? / Will I point above / at the Red Tail gracefully soaring / or down below where its prey / is quietly trembling?
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I just read the Guardian article. If the author states she met AP 'the day i met with her', why disbelieve it? Basic info can be gotten anywhere, and should be. What's in that article sounds person to person, to me at least.
I think this sorta kidding around about the Guardian article began, Jack, with wondering whether some of the comments about the stories were from Annie or were the interviewer's opinion, most particularly the question of whether Loyal Blood "raped" Billie in Postcards.
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Re "full of the smell of old blood..." Beautiful. Stockmen love the moment when the mare foals or the cow calves. Never tire of it. There is something primeval and satisfying about all the blood and gore and mess that accompanies a new life into the world. I've never read anything that captures the essence so well. IMO
Monte
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Thought the above was too vague and feel the need to dig myself in deeper...lol. I don't think the bedroom smells would have been offputting to Ennis. "Sniffer" and livestock handler that he is I think those smells would have triggered all the right nurturing instincts and perhaps have helped cement him to his family. Of all the dreary domestic scenes in BBM I found this one of the less depressing.
I have foaled out many mares(you sleep in the barn for 3 nights then they drop the kid when you go in the house for a cup of coffee)and love the smells. A couple babies have been raised in our house and all those similar smells are welcome and reassuring to me. Ennis was not the kind of guy to be put off by a little stink.
Monte
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I always thought old blood smells kinda like raw liver.
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I've become interested in readers' reactions to annie's women.
I like her women, feel she's on-spot with all of them, sensitive to our hungers. limitations, fears, etcetc.
Yet it seems to me that readers go after the women with a self-righteousness and rage that is sometimes, to me, scary! Alma and Lureen were, in my view, tarred and feathered by many in both film and story.
Because gynophobia is pretty well tied-in to homophobia, this really interests me. I hate to bring it up. But I guess I will.
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I've become interested in readers' reactions to annie's women.
I like her women, feel she's on-spot with all of them, sensitive to our hungers. limitations, fears, etcetc.
Yet it seems to me that readers go after the women with a self-righteousness and rage that is sometimes, to me, scary! Alma and Lureen were, in my view, tarred and feathered by many in both film and story.
Because gynophobia is pretty well tied-in to homophobia, this really interests me. I hate to bring it up. But I guess I will.
I agree with this. People don't really seem to have much empathy for either of them, and yet the story is a tragedy for them as well.
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Hello all - I was recently contacted by Lynne about the efforts going on to nominate Annie Proulx for the Nobel Prize in literature. There is a yahoo group dedicated to this, and I wanted to let you all know about their efforts. The group is located here:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/nominate_annie/
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Not for nothing, I have and had an absolute empathy for Alma and Lureen both. They are tragic. Through no fault of their own their lives are destroyed by loving men who can't love them back, at least not with that special bond. Jack and Lureen ended up empty, [ why don't husbands ever want to dance with their wives?] while Ennis destroyed Alma quietly, just by being there......
I like a LOT if not most of AP's SS females..at least the Wyo ones. Eugenie is an exception, in Man Crawling Out Of Trees. Her I dislike. In some of the novels it's 50/50: in Shipping News I liked all but that awful wife Quoyle had. That Old Ace In The Hole, I can't think of any women I really disliked. Most were pretty good people....except for the murderess lol. Postcards, was 50/50.
Heart Songs had some really awful women in those tales.
Maybe nobody else likes her women but i do. I just like her male characters more.
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Not for nothing, I have and had an absolute empathy for Alma and Lureen both. They are tragic. Through no fault of their own their lives are destroyed by loving men who can't love them back, at least not with that special bond. Jack and Lureen ended up empty, [ why don't husbands ever want to dance with their wives?] while Ennis destroyed Alma quietly, just by being there......
I like a LOT if not most of AP's SS females..at least the Wyo ones. Eugenie is an exception, in Man Crawling Out Of Trees. Her I dislike. In some of the novels it's 50/50: in Shipping News I liked all but that awful wife Quoyle had. That Old Ace In The Hole, I can't think of any women I really disliked. Most were pretty good people....except for the murderess lol. Postcards, was 50/50.
Heart Songs had some really awful women in those tales.
Maybe nobody else likes her women but i do. I just like her male characters more.
Like/dislike - come on! we're talking the human condition. we're not playing american idol.
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LMAO
I know. But the thing is, she has characters you either take to or detest at a visceral level. She's a complete master at it.
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... readers' reactions to annie's women.
I like her women, feel she's on-spot with all of them, sensitive to our hungers. limitations, fears, etcetc.
Yet it seems to me that readers go after the women with a self-righteousness and rage that is sometimes, to me, scary! Alma and Lureen were, in my view, tarred and feathered by many in both film and story...
Interesting. In the "Alma and Lureen" thread, it seemed to me that rather the opposite was the case: many posters there appeared to feel wronged on behalf of the wives, and resentful of the fact that they were given short shrift as compared to the men. It seemed as though readers/viewers wanted to identify with their victimization - nay, their martyrdom.
No, let me change that. Alma was the focus; Lureen didn't get much more than token sympathy.
However, I haven't followed the commentary on AP's other characters and maybe the situation is different there. Do you feel this gynophobia characterizes this AP thread?
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Lureen Newsome....I love Lureen. Why were people unsympathetic to Film Lureen??
This is a character who was drained slowly dry, drained of all her life, her zest, her enjoyment of living.
SHE WAS DRAINED DRY BY LIFE WITH THE SAME JACK WE ALL LOVE SO MUCH.
Every blonde hair on her head, the increased bleach in every scene indicated the life draining from her. In the telephone call, I at least found it very obvious that when Ennis told her they'd herded sheep up there back in 63 she suddenly KNEW who exactly was on the phone and what he had been to her husband.
I ask this:
How many women in the same sitiuation would have been kind enough to tell their husband's lover about the ashes he wanted spread on brokeback, even if she did hang up fast?
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... readers' reactions to annie's women.
I like her women, feel she's on-spot with all of them, sensitive to our hungers. limitations, fears, etcetc.
Yet it seems to me that readers go after the women with a self-righteousness and rage that is sometimes, to me, scary! Alma and Lureen were, in my view, tarred and feathered by many in both film and story...
Interesting. In the "Alma and Lureen" thread, it seemed to me that rather the opposite was the case: many posters there appeared to feel wronged on behalf of the wives, and resentful of the fact that they were given short shrift as compared to the men. It seemed as though readers/viewers wanted to identify with their victimization - nay, their martyrdom.
No, let me change that. Alma was the focus; Lureen didn't get much more than token sympathy.
However, I haven't followed the commentary on AP's other characters and maybe the situation is different there. Do you feel this gynophobia characterizes this AP thread?
No, Castro, not at all. In fact, this new thread encouraged me to bring up the subject that Ive been wondering about for the past year, thanks to sort of open invitation to talk about Annie and women.
And I must admit I havent read Alma and Lureen thread, afraid Id meet more of what was bothering me and shoot off my mouth.
I'll think more on this and see if I can respond to your post intelligently later in the day.
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How many women in the same sitiuation would have been kind enough to tell their husband's lover about the ashes he wanted spread on brokeback, even if she did hang up fast?
Ain't it the truth. I was amazed. Surprised she didn't curse and throw the phone at the wall instead!
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How many women in the same sitiuation would have been kind enough to tell their husband's lover about the ashes he wanted spread on brokeback, even if she did hang up fast?
Ain't it the truth. I was amazed. Surprised she didn't curse and throw the phone at the wall instead!
Are y'all talking about Annie's Lureen or McMurtry's? Or am I the only one who saw them as two different personalities? (and didn't care for the McMurtry version)
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JD said:
Are y'all talking about Annie's Lureen or McMurtry's? Or am I the only one who saw them as two different personalities? (and didn't care for the McMurtry version)
I was pretty comfortable with the way it was handled, because I saw Lureen as a strong-willed, spoiled girl who was also very much her father's son, a role she grew into. AP gives us only glimpses of her, through Jack's eyes, until we get her own voice in the phone conversation with Ennis.
In the first reunion scenes (remember, they include a conversation that the script moved to a later time) we learn Lureen's a pretty girl, and her dad doesn't like Jack and would probably buy him out of the marriage.
Later, Down in Texas Jack's father-in-law died and Lureen, who inherited the farm equipment business, showed a skill for management and hard deals. Jack found himself with a vague managerial title...
Jack tells his lie about having an affair with a rancher's wife; also sayshe was worried about his boy who was, no doubt about it, dyslexic or something, couldn't get anything right, fifteen years old and couldn't hardly read, he could see it though goddamn Lureen wouldn't admit to it and pretended the kid was o.k., refused to get any bitchin kind a help about it. He didn't know what the fuck the answer was. Lureen had the money and called the shots.
I thought Ossana and McMurtry did a good job of developing these scraps to show us how Lureen and Jack could have met and, for mixed reasons, got married. And - like many couples - stayed together in what became a marriage of convenience. And, don't you imagine, some affection if not love? Their perfunctory goodbye kiss in the "where's-my-jacket" scene is telling.
The conversation with Ennis concludes:"His folks still up in Lightnin Flat?"
"Oh yeah. They'll be there until they die. I never met them. They didn't come down for the funeral. You get in touch with them. I suppose they'd appreciate it if his wishes was carried out."
No doubt about it, she was polite but the little voice was cold as snow.
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... readers' reactions to annie's women.
I like her women, feel she's on-spot with all of them, sensitive to our hungers. limitations, fears, etcetc.
Yet it seems to me that readers go after the women with a self-righteousness and rage that is sometimes, to me, scary! Alma and Lureen were, in my view, tarred and feathered by many in both film and story...
Interesting. In the "Alma and Lureen" thread, it seemed to me that rather the opposite was the case: many posters there appeared to feel wronged on behalf of the wives, and resentful of the fact that they were given short shrift as compared to the men. It seemed as though readers/viewers wanted to identify with their victimization - nay, their martyrdom.
No, let me change that. Alma was the focus; Lureen didn't get much more than token sympathy.
However, I haven't followed the commentary on AP's other characters and maybe the situation is different there. Do you feel this gynophobia characterizes this AP thread?
Second reply, probably not more cogent than the first. I dont want to write a thesis on the subject, or go back and gather examples from the many threads. Mostly wondered if anyone else noticed responses to Alma and Lureen from some readers that ranged from contempt to hatred. (emphasis on the some - still enuff, to me, to be curious.) Also in BBMt and other stories, there seems to me often a veering toward the male, in sympathy, while criticizing women as being, variously, selfish, trivial, dishonest, grotesque, manipulative, destructive (T'giving scene in BBmt where Alma blew her stack interpreted by a number of readers/viewers as being an inappropriate "rant", for instance). Familiar stereotypes. Same Old Stuff.
Just noticing.
I didnt feel Alma and Lureen were given short shrift, rather that AP defined these secondary characters in short and brilliant strokes. The filmwriters filled out these lives, Alma more faithfully, I agree with JD, than Lureen, although I liked the portrayal of Lureen.
As for my mention of connection between gynophobia and homophobia - same ballpark - and seems to me the tendency to veer toward the male hetero powerful model in affection is something some of us hope to convert.
Very unsatisfactory response, Im sure. A delicate matter, and complicated.
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Playitagain said:
Very unsatisfactory response, Im sure. A delicate matter, and complicated
You seem to have taken my comment on how I perceived some "Alma and Lureen" postings as a challenge to your observation about unkind reactions to AP's women in general. That seems a tad unnecessary. I specifically mentioned I wasn't familiar with posters' responses to her other female characters. (Except for generally non-bitchy comments about the other Brokeback females.) Let me be even more clear: I'm haven't read the stories in which other female characters appear, let alone seen discussions about them.
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Playitagain said:
Very unsatisfactory response, Im sure. A delicate matter, and complicated
You seem to have taken my comment on how I perceived some "Alma and Lureen" postings as a challenge to your observation about unkind reactions to AP's women in general. That seems a tad unnecessary. I specifically mentioned I wasn't familiar with posters' responses to her other female characters. (Except for generally non-bitchy comments about the other Brokeback females.) Let me be even more clear: I'm haven't read the stories in which other female characters appear, let alone seen discussions about them.
No, I think you have misunderstood me. I am just trying to explain my orig. comment as clearly as possible. Not trying to defend my observations in any way, or respond to your experience reading the AandL thread. I know some threads have very diffrent views. There are threads and, thus, I suspect views with which I am totally unfamiliar. maybe I sound pompous or defensive or something, but do not mean to be so. Im a little uncomfortable expressing views of my own which sound when I write them out rather lurid. forgive me if I've been insensitive.
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Playitagain, you've said:
And I must admit I havent read Alma and Lureen thread, afraid Id meet more of what was bothering me and shoot off my mouth.
and
Mostly wondered if anyone else noticed responses to Alma and Lureen from some readers that ranged from contempt to hatred. (emphasis on the some - still enuff, to me, to be curious.) Also in BBMt and other stories, there seems to me often a veering toward the male, in sympathy, while criticizing women as being, variously, selfish, trivial, dishonest, grotesque, manipulative, destructive (T'giving scene in BBmt where Alma blew her stack interpreted by a number of readers/viewers as being an inappropriate "rant", for instance). Familiar stereotypes. Same Old Stuff.
You'll have read already Proulx's own comments on writing about the two genders. (Above, in this thread.)
Still, it does sound as though your primary focus is not so much on the female writer Annie Proulx as on analysis of the ways people interpret and react to two (or more?) of her characters. A broad sociological/psychological/political exploration? We all expose truths about ourselves as we look for the truths in fiction, but mightn't the scope of this actually fit better in the thread set up for Alma and Lureen?
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Ah I think I see: it is not discussion of personal responses themselves to APs work and characters that you think might belong on another thread, but analyzing these responses. Such as, calling them sexist. You have a point. (I think)
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Does the following sound familier and did it maybe influence Annie Proulx?
"Fifty miles from nowhere, Southern Montana... 2:00 A.M. The alarm jangles. Cassie reaches from under the eiderdown and turns it off, then lies for a moment and listens to the wind beat against the windows...
"Cassie rolls out of bed and feels for the pair of Levi's she left on the chair. She pulls them over her long-johns and wiggles into a heavy wool sweater. Then she stumbles to the kitchen, pours herself some coffee from the pot she never unplugs during calving season, and finishes dressing... Only her wedge of brunette hair betrays her sex... She pushes the door against the wind, and steps into the blackness." (Elisions mine)
--From the Introduction to Cowgirls, Women of the American West, An Oral History, by Teresa Jordan; Doubleday, 1982.
It was the word WEDGE that caught my eye. Then later comes the new version of a song that Ennis knew and sang: "The Old Strawberry Roan"...
"Oh, that Strawberry Roan, Oh, that Strawberry Roan,
There was never a cowboy that couldn't be throwed,
And never a bronc that couldn't be rode,
Including that Strawberry Roan...."
"--Possibly by J. Western Warner in Ten Thousand Goddam cattle, by Katie Lee, 1976.
Bet anything, Annie has this book on her shelf...
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Playitagain said:
Ah I think I see: it is not discussion of personal responses themselves to APs work and characters that you think might belong on another thread, but analyzing these responses. Such as, calling them sexist
Well, no; I just had the impression that you weren't much interested in discussing Annie Proulx and her work. But I'm not one of the gods around here.
Oregondoggie, that book sure does sound like it would be at home on Proulx's shelves . Oh yes, that omnipresent wind again! I'm only beginning to grasp its impact on people living in the plains. Earlier this evening I watched a new Court TV doc about the Cody Posey murders, which I'd cited a day or two ago as showing some rough fathering like the kind Proulx wrote of. Sam Donaldson's New Mexico ranch was the scene of the crimes, and the photographer captured that wind in his landscape shots - though I don't think there were tumbleweeds in Brokeback country. One fellow who'd worked for the boy's father could have been AP's sixty-year-old Jack if Jack had never married up but lived out his life as a ranch hand.
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A quick request here that people please go vote in the next book club poll:
http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=8585.0
There are only 4 votes there currently - this compares with over 30 in the most recent film club.
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Does the following sound familier and did it maybe influence Annie Proulx?
"Fifty miles from nowhere, Southern Montana... 2:00 A.M. The alarm jangles. Cassie reaches from under the eiderdown and turns it off, then lies for a moment and listens to the wind beat against the windows...
"Cassie rolls out of bed and feels for the pair of Levi's she left on the chair. She pulls them over her long-johns and wiggles into a heavy wool sweater. Then she stumbles to the kitchen, pours herself some coffee from the pot she never unplugs during calving season, and finishes dressing... Only her wedge of brunette hair betrays her sex... She pushes the door against the wind, and steps into the blackness." (Elisions mine)
--From the Introduction to Cowgirls, Women of the American West, An Oral History, by Teresa Jordan; Doubleday, 1982.
It was the word WEDGE that caught my eye. Then later comes the new version of a song that Ennis knew and sang: "The Old Strawberry Roan"...
"Oh, that Strawberry Roan, Oh, that Strawberry Roan,
There was never a cowboy that couldn't be throwed,
And never a bronc that couldn't be rode,
Including that Strawberry Roan...."
"--Possibly by J. Western Warner in Ten Thousand Goddam cattle, by Katie Lee, 1976.
Bet anything, Annie has this book on her shelf...
wow, Oregondoggie, thanks. Writers just can't help but influence one another, can they......The whole feel of this is totally like the BBM Prologue, I'm guessing is what you are getting at...I esp find the 'wedge' interesting-that would be a hard -to- buy coincidence. The cowpoke are all inured to the hard, wind-driven life, ite seems, no matter who writes about them.
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That's because the wind is simply there. Always.
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Proulx has written the forward to a collectiion of essays about restoration of wilderness areas. I don't have the book, but this review quotes a fragment from her:
IN HER FORWARD to A Road Runs Through It, Annie Proulx equates road-ripping—the removal of roads from public wildlands—with the crusade of seventeenth-century pueblo dwellers against the Spanish conquistadors who repressed their culture and desecrated their sacred objects. Road-ripping, writes Proulx, “is a meaningful ritual that seeks to reestablish the correct order of the world.” The twenty-nine writers within this collection, including Barry Lopez, Derrick Jensen, and William Kittredge, contribute to this revolt by recalling and imagining natural landscapes, neither repressed by a windshield nor desecrated by the sound of motors.-
(http://www.orionmagazine.org/pages/om/07-1om/Reviews.html)
Nice to glimpse this evidence of her caring, and nice to know she has a place of honor here.
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I ordered it last week, it should be here tues-wed. Which means I have to get her to sign it LOL
By the way if you order it through amazon and use the forum store sight to enter it they get a couple of cents here on DCF.
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Hello all - I was recently contacted by Lynne about the efforts going on to nominate Annie Proulx for the Nobel Prize in literature. There is a yahoo group dedicated to this, and I wanted to let you all know about their efforts. The group is located here:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/nominate_annie/
Hi there! Here's an update with what's going on with the 'nominate_Annie' yahoo group. I just posted the following - bold type means we still need HELP! in these areas:
Friends,
During the last few weeks, we have put together a terrific group of people interested in this project from the different major Internet groups - BetterMost, Dave Cullen, EnnisJack, and Yahoo. We now have an impressive cross-section of folks coming together for the worthy cause of lobbying for Annie Proulx to win a Nobel Prize - the only major literary prize she has not yet been awarded.
Here are my ideas - my 'three-pronged plan' - of what we need to do to realize our goals. Clearly, absolutely nothing is cast in stone, so please feel free to comment, interject your own views, opinions, or criticisms.
First, we need to build a database of potential nominators, which will include College/University, Department Director, and contact information. I do not mind taking the lead here because building databases is my current career (translate - easy). I've done some cursory queries of renown English/Creative Writing departments - the potential list is in the hundreds, if not approaching 1,000! I would like each of our alma maters, or those of our parents, or others where we have personal connections, where applicable, to be included in this database. Please send me these college and/or university names (lynne_steele@yahoo.com), and I will be sure they are included and annotated appropriately.
Next, we obviously have a large body of information at our disposal regarding Annie Proulx and Brokeback Mountain. However, the Nobel is awarded for a 'body of work.' There is a definite hole in (at least my own knowledge base) regarding her other works, although I have read most of them. Consequently, we need to gather resources (literary criticism and commentary) of Annie Proulx that are not BBM-centric. And we need someone to volunteer to take the lead in accumulating these additional resources. Email me if you have interest, please!! This is going to be a most challenging part, IMO.
Finally, we need some real-life BBM-testimonials to include as part of our nomination package. I'm not envisioning hundreds - more like 5-15 poignant stories about how BBM made a significant difference to an individual life, ruthlessly culled (by necessity) from the thousands we know are out there. Truman (shakestheground@yahoo.com) has expressed interest in accumulating these stories. (Obviously, we will need the permission of the original posters to duplicate their [edited] posts in our package.) The first order of business should be for each of us to identify a few (5?) personal stories (our own or others we've read about) that touched us deeply. Please post or send Truman and/or me the pertinent links. We can go from there.
Now - a timetable...
Some of us are planning to be in Denver (Estes Park) for Memorial Day weekend. This date would make an excellent goal for reviewing our progress.
My goal is to have the potential nominator database completed by 5/1/2007. This would give me the opportunity to send it to the group for review before Mem Day and to solicit additional input at the gathering.
It would be awesome to have a draft of the nomination package completed before Mem Day. I envision this as an ongoing work in the coming months as we gather information and testimonials. I imagine we will be through several drafts before 5/1.
Perhaps we should set intermediate goals of
Draft 1 - 4/1
Draft 2 - 4/15
Draft 3 = 5/1
Draft 4 = 5/15
We could then have the latest draft to distribute to a wider group at the Mem Day gathering for additional input. This means that most input regarding literary criticism and analysis references and testimonials should be in place ASAP to 4/1 to give us time to write.
Ultimately, we will have through mid-July to make revisions and finalize our nomination package and distribution list. We should be ready to mail our nomination package NLT 8/1/2007, which is when the Nobel committee starts soliciting nominations.
Please mark your calendar with these important dates and respond with feedback and any information you can gather (including if coming to Denver/Estes Park for Memorial Day is in your plans)!!!
Thank you in advance for all your hard work!!!
Best,
Lynne
P.S.
The general website for the Estes Park gathering:
http://www.brokeback2007.com/
The BetterMost link to the Estes Park gathering (registration required):
http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php/topic,5791.msg156368.html#msg156368
There is likely a DC link to the BBQ at Estes, but I do not know the URL at this time.
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Does anyone know if there is a connection between Annie Proulx and Earl Proulx who wrote helpful hint books?
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Does anyone know if there is a connection between Annie Proulx and Earl Proulx who wrote helpful hint books?
As much are I really hate to say this - I don't know and I can't find an answer. I've looked online and in databases and there is no biographical information online that I can get into without registering for Earl Proulx.
He's from the right part of the country (New England). He was born in 1913 and died in March 2002. He lived in Surry, NH. Annie Proulx was born in Norwich, Connecticut.
She did similar articles in the 80s.
Here, however, is an excerpt of an article on Earl Proulx from the Christian Science Monitor in 1988:
Meet `Vinegar,' the fix-it guy.,
By: Atkin, Ross,
Christian Science Monitor, 8/12/98
When Earl Proulx, the answer man of Yankee Magazine, searches for the roots of his home know-how, he often remembers an infuriating remark his father once made.
"You're going to have to look out for Earl, because he ain't going to be able to make a living," Mr. Proulx's dad told two other sons.
The comment was made in reference to a physical condition that prevented Proulx from standing for long periods.
He refused to accept his father's verdict and became a building contractor. But he always loved reading and would search magazines and newspapers for household pointers. "I'd save any tip on how to do things," he says. "I had them in two file drawers."
Years later he built the offices for Yankee Magazine, eventually accepted a position as maintenance supervisor for the Dublin, N.H.-based publisher, and now is a renowned columnist and successful book author.
His monthly "Plain Talk" magazine columns answer household questions submitted by readers of Yankee, a regional institution with far-flung readers. The columns have formed the basis for four books, including "Earl Proulx's Yankee Home Hints," which has sold more than 500,000 copies and is now available in paperback (Yankee Books). It contains tips on everything from dealing with stains in the rug to squirrels in the attic.
A widower for 21 years, Mr. Proulx (pronounced "proo") shares this and other nuggets during an interview in his home, where his frisky dog, Sparky, is his companion.
Although Proulx was a carpenter, his father leaned on him to help customers in other ways. He made keys, fixed appliances, and hung mirrors.
In 1963, after a long career as a building contractor, Proulx moved into full-time maintenance work at Yankee Magazine headquarters. His former construction foreman held the job before Proulx but wasn't cut out for the work.
PHOTO (COLOR): THE ANSWER MAN'S WORKSHOP: In his basement workshop in Surry, N.H., Earl Proulx concocts solutions and writes a column for Yankee Magazine on household repairs. He built the doll house for a granddaughter.
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Thank you so much for that. It's certainly more information than I had found.
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There is also a musician named Michael Proulx. i think he is a grandson or something, don't know.
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Eats meet West
Readin', ridin' and rustlin' up some grub with Annie Proulx and the Fort chefs
http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/flavor/article/0,2792,DRMN_26356_5633496,00.html
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Eats meet West
Readin', ridin' and rustlin' up some grub with Annie Proulx and the Fort chefs
http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/flavor/article/0,2792,DRMN_26356_5633496,00.html
Our own Book Club members did much better than this lot.
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And just as a quick reminder for anyone wanting to read the book club discussion of 'Close Range' (and 'Bad Dirt'), the thread is here:
http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=12416.0
At the top of each page you'll see an index to the short stories in both books. Click on the title of the story and it will take you to the conversation for that story.
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I didn't know where else to post this, and it may already be common knowledge, but, according to Poets and Writers Magazine, Annie received quite an honor earlier this year. Just look at the company she's in!
"New Members
Poet and prose writer Jim Harrison of Patagonia, Arizona, and fiction writers Deborah Eisenberg and Mary Gordon, both of New York City, Allan Gurganus of Hillsborough, North Carolina, Harper Lee of Monroeville, Alabama, and Annie Proulx of Saratoga, Wyoming, were elected to membership in the American Academy of Arts and Letters. Members are selected annually by internal nomination; there is no application process."
Even if I'm the last with the least on this news, it bears repeating.
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^^^ That's wonderful news. And this section doesn't get nearly enough posts. So thanks.
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That is awesome news! and a Zonie getting in..In a state that ranks generally about 72 in a list of 50 for education.
I can say that cuz I live here.... ;)
Tx for posting that..yeah, we don't get too much activity in this thread anymore.....It feels funny speculationg about a living icon, doesn't it? ;D ;D
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Did Larry McMurtry unwittingly inspire the characters of Jack Twist and Ennis Del Mar as well as some aspects of the story of Brokeback Mountain? In The Late Child, a novel of his published in 1995, there is a minor incident towards the end of the book in Chapter 14, that made me wonder. Here are a few quotes, condensed from several pages:
(At the airport) ".... noticed a young cowboy, sitting a few seats away. The cowboy was short and skinny. When she glanced at him she saw that he was bent over, with his face in his hands, crying. His skinny shoulders were shaking, and his black cowboy hat had fallen off his head and was on the floor, by his boots.
.... All he had with him was a small duffel bag, with a pair of spurs dangling from the handle, and a rope. His boots were dusty and his pants legs were a little too long--he had stepped on the cuffs and left them pretty frayed. Since he had his face in his hands it was difficult to tell exactly how old he was, but he looked to be only in his late teens.
.... 'Can I help you, sir?' she asked, sitting down beside him.
The boy, his face wet with tears, looked up at her--his look was blank.
'Jody's dead,' the young man said simply, as if it should be obvious to any passerby why he was sitting in the Tulsa airport at midnight, crying. 'That old pickup of ours didn't have no seat belts on the driver's side,' he went on. 'Jody always drove like a bat out of hell even when there wasn't no hurry. She missed a curve and flipped. Got thrown clean out of the window and broke her neck. Kilt instantly. The kids weren't hurt, though.
... 'Jody was your wife?' (she) asked.
'Yep, only she ain't no more, she's dead, and I got two kids to raise and not a cent to my name. I sure can't make enough calf roping to support two kids, so I guess that's the end of rodeoing
.... she said. 'I hope you don't mind if I sit with you for a while.'
'No, ma'am, I don't,' the boy said. I'm Wesley Straw. I come all the way up here from Lubbock and didn't win a cent. I don't know how we'll even scrape up the money to bury Jody... my folks don't think I should have married Jody in the first place....
'Oh God, ma'am, I just can't believe she's dead,' Wesley said. 'All she was doing was driving home. They estimate she was going better than ninety...
'Maybe you can get back to rodeoing a little later, Wesley," (she) said...
But Wesley Straw shook his head. 'I should have give it up already,' he said. 'It was just a dream I had, when I was growing up. I wanted to be a world's champion cowboy so bad-- or at least to get to the national finals. But I can't afford my own trailer, so when I enter a rodeo I have to borrow a horse to rope off of. But that's no good. I ain't familiar with the horse, and the horse ain't familiar with me Sometimes I'll be riding a different roping horse every time I rope. You don't get nowhere that way. All the good ropers got their own trailers and their own horses.'
'It don't matter now,' he went on. 'Jody was getting tired of me going off and never bringing home no money. I would have had to give up and go to work in the oil fields anyway, pretty soon. God, I hate the thought of spending the rest of my life working in the stinking oilfields.'
'Wesley, I lost my daughter recently,' (she) said.
'Aw, ma'am, that's worse.' Wesley said, turning his anguished eyes to hers. 'Losing Jody is hell, but if I was to lose one of my girls I'd take a shotgun and blow my head off.'
On impulse he dug in his pocket and pulled out a sweat-stained walled and showed (her) small snapshots of his daughters, aged three and four. Then he pulled out a picture of his wife. 'And this is Jody,' he said, offering (her) a picture of a thin-faced, pretty brunette.
... Just then Wesley Straw's flight was called. He popped up and put his black hat back on his head--it looked much too large for his small head and thin neck. He picked up his duffel bag, which made his spurs jingle a little.
... He gave (her) a little nod, and a grateful glance before getting in line to board the plane. Then he dried his eyes on his shirtsleeve and straightened his black hat on his head. There was something about his look that broke (her) heart. He was only nineteen, he had said, and now he was flying off to try his best to be a brave cowboy and raise his little girls, letting go forever his dream of being a world's champion calf roper and getting to compete in the national finals rodeo; all because his wife was driving too fast and failed to make a curve. Probably it had been hard for Wesley to keep up his hopes anyway, since he didn't even have enough money to own a trailer and didn't get to rope off his own horse. But he had still been trying.... Now it was over.
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Maybe. But Annie says the genesis of BBM happened in 1995 in a bar near the Montana border:
There was the smell of sex in the air. But here was this old shabby-looking guy ... watching the guys playing pool. He had a raw hunger in his eyes that made me wonder if he were country gay. I wondered, What would've he been like when he was younger? Then he disappeared, and in his place appeared Ennis. And then Jack. You can't have Ennis without Jack.
http://news.softpedia.com/news/The-author-of-the-story-Brokeback-Mountain-talks-about-the-film-15748.shtml (ftp://http://news.softpedia.com/news/The-author-of-the-story-Brokeback-Mountain-talks-about-the-film-15748.shtml)
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No confict between the two. Same year. She saw the old cowboy. Got an idea. Maybe had read McMurtry's book. A young cowboy becomes the DNA for two cowboys, one of whom also grew out of the old cowboy watching pool players in The Mint Bar.
Annie Proulx acknowledges using a whole universe of sources for her stories.
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There's a Straw family in Elk Tooth, in Bad Dirt. Perhaps Wesley is related to them.
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Orendoggie, I always felt a strong influence on her from Larry M-'I swear, Gus.'
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Orendoggie, I always felt a strong influence on her from Larry M-'I swear, Gus.'
Yes Jo, and AP said in an interview with 'Planet Jackson Hole' when discussing the screenplay for BBM, ...Diana Ossana and Larry McMurtry did not consult with me while they were working on the screenplay. But I trusted them with the story, especially Larry McMurtry, whose ear and eye for Western America is equaled by none.I would likely have said no to any other screenwriter (s) who approached me on this story.
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Interesting. Really interesting. Source material comes from everywhere. I did a 911 story which was mostly influenced by the events. And my head. But a canny reader would realise I had studied authors like Homer and Annie Proulx.
What matters is what you do with it. Even the 3 Greek dramatists were influenced by each other, and Homer.
Everyone borrows[ed] something, except for Homer.
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Maybe. But Annie says the genesis of BBM happened in 1995 in a bar near the Montana border:
There was the smell of sex in the air. But here was this old shabby-looking guy ... watching the guys playing pool. He had a raw hunger in his eyes that made me wonder if he were country gay. I wondered, What would've he been like when he was younger? Then he disappeared, and in his place appeared Ennis. And then Jack. You can't have Ennis without Jack.
http://news.softpedia.com/news/The-author-of-the-story-Brokeback-Mountain-talks-about-the-film-15748.shtml (ftp://http://news.softpedia.com/news/The-author-of-the-story-Brokeback-Mountain-talks-about-the-film-15748.shtml)
That link doesn't work for me.
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http://news.softpedia.com/news/The-author-of-the-story-Brokeback-Mountain-talks-about-the-film-15748.shtml
If this doesn't work, you can cut & paste the link to reach the site.
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That works now, thanks. "You can't have Ennis without Jack." What a great line.
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In an article about The Missouri Review's 30th anniversary http://columbiabusinesstimes.com/viewarticle.php?transferid=1015 (http://columbiabusinesstimes.com/viewarticle.php?transferid=1015), there's this mention of Annie:
The publication holds a special place for Pulitzer Prize-winning novelist E. Annie Proulx, author of The Shipping News and “Brokeback Mountain.” When she receives media requests, she sometimes points the requesters to her Missouri Review interview, which, she told Morgan (MR's editor), was her best ever.
In case you haven't read it:
The Interview: http://www.moreview.org/content-index.php?genre=Interviews&title=Interview+with+Annie+Proulx (http://www.moreview.org/content-index.php?genre=Interviews&title=Interview+with+Annie+Proulx)
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bad link... :(
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bad link... :(
it works if you cut & paste
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I fixed the link. It was formatted as an ftp link rather than http.
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thanks for the heads up on this, jd! what a great interview.
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I'd like to announce that there is a new moderator for the book threads - 'BrokenOkie' (a/k/a Glenn) will be taking over from me as moderator of this thread. You will note that he is already listed as 'moderator' on the threads.
It's been my pleasure to be a moderator in the book threads and I will continue to post as a forum member. Thanks to all of you for your time and participation.
Michael
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HEADS UP:
Fine Just the Way It Is
Wyoming Stories 3
By Annie Proulx
This Edition: Hardcover
Publication Date: September 9, 2008
Our Price: $25.00
Availability: Ships on or around September 9
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Very cook, thanks!
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From Amazon.co.UK:
'Synopsis
The fantastic new collection of stories from the Pulitzer Prize winning author of The Shipping News and Brokeback Mountain. Fine Just The Way It Is marks Annie Proulx's return to the Wyoming of Brokeback Mountain and the familiar cast of hardy, unsentimental prairie folk. The stories are cast over centuries, and capture the voices and lives of the settlers this sagebrushed and weatherworn country has known, from the native Indian tribes to the modern day ranch owners and politicians, and their cowboy forebears. In 'A Family Man', an old man nearing the end of his life unburdens himself of the weighty family secrets that were his father's unwelcome legacy. 'Them Old Cowboy Songs' follows Archie and Rosie, a young pioneer couple, and their hardships in their attempt to homestead in the exposed wintry expanses of the prairie, and 'Testimony of the Donkey' finds a young international couple, Marc and Caitlin, struggling with much more modern concerns, and confronting uncertainty as their relationship comes to its end. These are stories of desperation and hard times, often marked by an inescapable sadness, set in a landscape both brutal and magnificent.Enlivened by folk tales, flights of fancy, and details of ranch and rural work, they juxtapose Wyoming's traditional character and attitudes - confrontation of tough problems, prejudice, persistence in the face of difficulty - with the more benign values of the new west.
These are bold, elegant and memorable pieces, and once more confirm Annie Proulx as one of the most talented, unique short story writers in the language. '
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I checked a local bookshop and this isn't due out until September, they said. Does that sound right? I'm looking forward to it. Annie has the ability to make me laugh out loud and then cry within a page or two. Oddly enough, so did Germaine Greer's biography of her father (Germaine's, not Annie's).
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I checked a local bookshop and this isn't due out until September, they said. Does that sound right? I'm looking forward to it. Annie has the ability to make me laugh out loud and then cry within a page or two. Oddly enough, so did Germaine Greer's biography of her father (Germaine's, not Annie's).
yes, details two posts above....I agree about how well Annie tugs at our conflicting emotions..I was just rereading, 'Bunchgrass At The Edge of the World'-that is a classic bit of that ability of AP's; Something she does better than anyone.
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"Them Old Cowboy Songs" is in the May 5th issue of the New Yorker. I liked it very much.
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"Them Old Cowboy Songs" is in the May 5th issue of the New Yorker. I liked it very much.
ooooohhh, mine's not in the mail yet-I can't wait.
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Rosewood has posted about this story in the New Yorker thread. Jenny, Rosewood is in a quandry with the story. Can you help her out?
I don't have my May 5 New Yorker yet. :-\
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Just read 'Them Old Cowboy Songs' in the May 5th issue of the New Yorker. One of Proulx's best short stories -- it was stark and sad. Archie and Rose are two of the sweetest pairs -- I loved them -- couldn't get them out of my head. It was different from Proulx's previous short stories IMO. She gets right to the point -- the reader knows where she's going from the beginning -- no metaphorical mumbo jumbo. This is the West hard and unforgiving. Put me in mind of McMurtry. If the rest of the book is as good as this, I can't wait for September!
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"Them Old Cowboy Songs" is in the May 5th issue of the New Yorker. I liked it very much.
My spirits froze to death reading this story. Only the neighbor's cat seems to have had a happy ending. The rest of 'em are lurking out there... gonna jump our Wyoming 2008 tour group. Careful, EDelMar! Rodney!
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Did that story chill you through to the liver, OD?
OK I"m gonna post in the New Yorker thread.
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I did some musings on the New Yorker thread about this story.
From the perspective of the author's intent, I see alot of the same old same old-the people, thier relationships represented by the Old West or the modern purveryors of the template-taming something wild (love) into something civilized and cohesive (a relationship). Its preeminent in most of her stories, IMO, and this is no exception. It is no wonder, with her being married, what, 4-5 times?? And it's as haunting as her best, really. I can't get that coyote and what Rose knows it is doing outsid her her cabin out of my mind....
I keep wondering if the Jack Twist template is not at heart, AP and her yearning self.
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New Annie interview
http://www.redorbit.com/news/entertainment/1411525/the_richness_of_nearly_empty_places/
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Tks for that link to the Proulx interview. Guess she's sick of answering questions/comments about BBM -- can't blame her. Looking forward to the final collection of Wyoming Stories.
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Annie Proulx has another short story in the summer fiction double issue of the New Yorker, June 9 & 16.
The title is Tits-Up in a Ditch and it is set in Wyoming and very contemporary.
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Annie Proulx has another short story in the summer fiction double issue of the New Yorker, June 9 & 16.
The title is Tits-Up in a Ditch and it is set in Wyoming and very contemporary.
Hi Constant. Is this another from Proulx's new collection of Wyoming stories?
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I don't know but I would be willing to bet that it is. I also predict, based on her past publishing record with the magazine, that there will be one more short story in the New Yorker before the book is published.
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I just read Tits-Up in a Ditch. It is as dark as anything she has written. There is no bottom to it.
Rather long, and some of the writing itself is probably worth a little discussion. The content is definitely worth some.
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Sounds intreresting -- I love when Proulx does dark like 'People in Hell...' I can't keep buying the NY at 4.50 a shot -- will try to seek it out in the library, or wait till Sept. when the book comes out. I will lurk during the discussions on this thread. though.
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Well at least we now know what AP thinks might have become of Jack and Ennis in an A/U.
I have some major concerns with this piece in terms of style, content, language, and politics. I will have to read it again and give some more thought before I comment.
I am not so sure she is "doing dark" here. She appears to be doing just plain ol' "pissed off".
(Nikki, though this one is not at the moment, much of TNY fiction is on-line. This one will be too once the web guys get caught up on the back-log)
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Well at least we now know what AP thinks might have become of Jack and Ennis in an A/U.
I have some major concerns with this piece in terms of style, content, language, and politics. I will have to read it again and give some more thought before I comment.
I am not so sure she is "doing dark" here. She appears to be doing just plain ol' "pissed off".
(Nikki, though this one is not at the moment, much of TNY fiction is on-line. This one will be too once the web guys get caught up on the back-log)
Tks garyd. Never thought of that -- will check it out. BTW I love Proulx dark or pissed off! LOL
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I strongly suggest that anyone interested in reading the story any time soon go out and buy the magazine. The New Yorker has published ten of Annie's stories (four each from Close Range and Bad Dirt and the two new ones) and one essay since 1997. Only one, What Kind of Furniture Would Jesus Pick from 2003, is available on-line. There may be copies available out there but you won't find them on the New Yorker site.
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I strongly suggest that anyone interested in reading the story any time soon go out and buy the magazine. The New Yorker has published ten of Annie's stories (four each from Close Range and Bad Dirt and the two new ones) and one essay since 1997. Only one, What Kind of Furniture Would Jesus Pick from 2003, is available on-line. There may not copies available out there but you won't find them on the New Yorker site.
Tks for the update Constant -- my library usually has copies if and when I get there.
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Well at least we now know what AP thinks might have become of Jack and Ennis in an A/U.
I have some major concerns with this piece in terms of style, content, language, and politics. I will have to read it again and give some more thought before I comment.
I am not so sure she is "doing dark" here. She appears to be doing just plain ol' "pissed off".
(Nikki, though this one is not at the moment, much of TNY fiction is on-line. This one will be too once the web guys get caught up on the back-log)
Hi, gary...to what source is the bolded referring to? I don't see anything in the interview link that addresses this. Are you referring to a particular short story?
tx.
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Well at least we now know what AP thinks might have become of Jack and Ennis in an A/U.
I have some major concerns with this piece in terms of style, content, language, and politics. I will have to read it again and give some more thought before I comment.
I am not so sure she is "doing dark" here. She appears to be doing just plain ol' "pissed off".
(Nikki, though this one is not at the moment, much of TNY fiction is on-line. This one will be too once the web guys get caught up on the back-log)
Hi, gary...to what source is the bolded referring to? I don't see anything in the interview link that addresses this. Are you referring to a particular short story?
tx.
Hey Jo,
My comments are in reference to AP's latest short story in TNY. You will probably see what I mean when you read it.
Also, I come away with a sense that the story is very much AP's POV on a topic or two.....
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~ the story is very much AP's POV on a topic or two.....
I think the story is more than some sort of liberal diatribe or polemic, or whatever. ( I guess that's what you're calling it?)
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~ the story is very much AP's POV on a topic or two.....
I think the story is more than some sort of liberal diatribe or polemic, or whatever. ( I guess that's what you're calling it?)
Some thoughts. I think they belong here. Maybe not.
“Tits Up in the Ditch”, brings us to the final chapter in what is apparently the final collection of stories in Annie Proulx’s Wyoming trilogy. Throughout the three collections Ms. Proulx employs the epigraph from the first, “reality’s never been much use out there”, to set the tone for all of the stories. (though separate epigraphs are employed for each). She also uses it as the basis for examining the great American Western myth versus American Western reality. In other words, what these people try to believe about themselves and what they know, or should know, to be the truth. The stories present a juxtaposition of the “down home, clean, decent, pioneer-spirited”, self-reliant people they try to believe they are ( “tamed the frontier”) with the reality of who they really are.
With “Tits Up……”,however, Ms. Proulx abandons all pretext of subtlety and, lyricism and , layers of metaphor and, any hint of magical realism, in favor of a harsh light and a high powered mirror riveted on the characters and, in so doing, underscores her premise that unwavering adherence to myth leads to an inexorable “decent into the dark, watery mud”. And though it is not a “liberal diatribe or polemic” it certainly is an unvarnished statement regarding the theme of “reality vs. myth” and the inherent danger of favoring the latter over the former. By now we know these characters so well that they come across as stereotypes. Perhaps that is her intent.
“Brokeback Mountain”, a story deservedly the most famous of the collection, explores the same theme with all the lyrical and metaphorical skill Ms. Proulx has to offer. It’s elements, themes, and symbolism have been well examined here and elsewhere. In all of the analysis, however, I think it important to remember that it is the characters of Ennis and Jack who represent the most vital symbolism in terms of the theme of reality and myth.
Ennis del Mar is unable to accept the truth about himself due to his inability to come to terms with his acceptance of society’s mythology regarding masculinity and manhood versus the reality, the truth, of what makes a man a man. His “world view” is so narrow he cannot even imagine living outside the only geography he has ever known.
Jack Twist, at first blush, comes across as much more flexible in his world and personal view. And yet his illusions about a “sweet life” together with Ennis are just that, illusions. The “reality” of the society in which he lives will not allow for such a lifestyle to exist, much less flourish. Even his illusions regarding the rodeo, the cowboy life, and bull riding are all crushed by the reality of what it really takes to compete in the harsh, decidedly “unglamorous” world of the mythical rodeo cowboy. Though, on some level, they know the truth, neither Ennis nor Jack can move beyond the myths that envelop them.
For these reasons, “Brokeback Mountain”, whether intended or not by the author, transcends the “rural homophobia” context and it’s themes become surprisingly universal.
Consequently, with the Wyoming trilogy, and especially with “Brokeback Mountain”, Ms. Proulx also transcends the confines of her western rural characters and geo-political insights and moves into the world of Miller and Williams and especially Albee. Ennis and Jack( and even Bonita and Verl and Dakotah and all the rest) enter the world of Willie, Blanche, Gay Langland, Roslyn, Mommy, Daddy, Grandma, Peter, Jerry, and, of course, George and Martha. (“truth or illusion. George, truth or illusion?)
When we encounter these characters on the printed page, the stage, or the screen, we discover that all of them share the same tragic inability to transverse the distance between what they know to be true and what they, and those around them, desperately try to believe. And so, like Dakotah, they descend “into the dark, watery mud”….”tits up in the ditch”.
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Well at least we now know what AP thinks might have become of Jack and Ennis in an A/U.
I have some major concerns with this piece in terms of style, content, language, and politics. I will have to read it again and give some more thought before I comment.
I am not so sure she is "doing dark" here. She appears to be doing just plain ol' "pissed off".
(Nikki, though this one is not at the moment, much of TNY fiction is on-line. This one will be too once the web guys get caught up on the back-log)
Hi, gary...to what source is the bolded referring to? I don't see anything in the interview link that addresses this. Are you referring to a particular short story?
tx.
Hey Jo,
My comments are in reference to AP's latest short story in TNY. You will probably see what I mean when you read it.
Also, I come away with a sense that the story is very much AP's POV on a topic or two.....
Hmm, nifty. Thanks. I have to catch up on my TNY.
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The new story defintely seemed to reference the conversation we had about the photographer (Diane Arbus?) who photographed the folks in the West (Wyoming) exactly as they were, and then they turned on her--everyone knew that they were good, God-fearing patriots, and SHE turned them into grotesques. These characters are definitely some of the more grotesque she's written in terms of the withered, battered, creatures they wind up compared to how they started. I've also posted this in the New Yorker section (hopefully the mods won't mind) in case the conversation is more appropriate there.
I must say, I love her writing, but didn't love this story--too sprawling, and ultimately too plagues-of-Job. However, I think much of Dal's analysis is spot-on with regards to how the characters view themselves and their lives, and how they really are. Verl's rodeo background piqued my interest as well; Jack would've had a tough, painful old age if he'd made it that far. And Dakotah's story is a heartbreaker. Nonetheless, at the end, I had a weird feeling of exhaustion more than pity or sympathy for the characters, and that's not a good sign.
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Hey, dback.
I missed the Arbus conversation and Dal's analysis of "Tits Up...." as well.(where is it?) However,
after reading your post it dawned on me that "Tits Up...." is really a "word picture" in the
style of Diane Arbus.
This makes the whole thing a bit more "palatable" for me.
Also, it makes sense. AP did a review of the Arbus collection in which she mentions many of these "myth/reality" ideas.
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I finally got thru this, and went back over it to make some sense of it..I catch anti-war and Feminism, big time. In addition, the whole dying ranch tradition; and the migration to the cities, leaving cows and people tits up, along the way.
I also catch the Sins of the Father-or in this case, the mother-that was so prevalent in BBM.
I didn't go alot deeper into it-too depressing..The idea of all the body parts getting destroyed; I know there is something there, but I can't quite put my still-attached finger on it.
Gary, still not certain which J and E AU reference you were making-the two lesbians? or just the idea of how the old rancher ultimately turned out? I may have missed something.
Tx, yet again. ;)
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this is not about annies work but i bought id ask anyway
just looked up the cast list and found this
Brooklynn Proulx ... Jenny, Age 4 (as Brooklyn Proulx)
is this Annies Daughter?
im trying to remember what scenes jenny,aged 4 was in, can anybody help me out? my minds gone blank
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this is not about annies work but i bought id ask anyway
just looked up the cast list and found this
Brooklynn Proulx ... Jenny, Age 4 (as Brooklyn Proulx)
is this Annies Daughter?
im trying to remember what scenes jenny,aged 4 was in, can anybody help me out? my minds gone blank
Wasn't that the scene where the young children run up to Ennis and say "bring home a big fish daddy."? I thought that was Proulx's real life grandaughter -- maybe I'm wrong?
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Gary, still not certain which J and E AU reference you were making-the two lesbians? or just the idea of how the old rancher ultimately turned out? I may have missed something.
Tx, yet again. ;)
Oh, it is nothing that illuminating. I simply saw a fleeting resemblance between Verl and Jack and Match and Ennis. Nothing to do with sexual orientation and I don't think my recognition has much, if anything to do with the story.
As I stated in an earlier post, and upon further reflection. I feel the story is basically a summation of her exploration of the "reality has never been of much use" theme.
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this is not about annies work but i bought id ask anyway
just looked up the cast list and found this
Brooklynn Proulx ... Jenny, Age 4 (as Brooklyn Proulx)
is this Annies Daughter?
im trying to remember what scenes jenny,aged 4 was in, can anybody help me out? my minds gone blank
Wasn't that the scene where the young children run up to Ennis and say "bring home a big fish daddy."? I thought that was Proulx's real life grandaughter -- maybe I'm wrong?
yeah thats the one
yeah grandaughter not daughter that makes more sense!
thanks
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I finally got thru this, and went back over it to make some sense of it..I catch anti-war and Feminism, big time. In addition, the whole dying ranch tradition; and the migration to the cities, leaving cows and people tits up, along the way.
I also catch the Sins of the Father-or in this case, the mother-that was so prevalent in BBM.
I didn't go alot deeper into it-too depressing..The idea of all the body parts getting destroyed; I know there is something there, but I can't quite put my still-attached finger on it.
I just read this over the weekend. From everybody's comments I was expecting some sort of dead end like the last story-- the young couple that both ended up dead, one of them eaten by critters.
Call me crazy, but I found this one to have much more of a point.
I like stories that illuminate the difficulties of young women who do not have advocates. I really could identify with Dakotah. She didn't even know she had a birthday until kindergarten -- that illuminates her upbringing as indifferent, even abusive.
But she seemed to have a spark of her own worth. That she would fight back against her husband shows that she didn't think herself beneath everybody else.
But the setbacks of the inequality are real. In the prior story, love (meaning childbirth) killed the girl. (can't remember her name) In this story, Dakotah loses her job because of her pregnancy. Hard to believe the boss would have no compassion for her --
so she has to go back to Verl and Bonita for help. Was all the softening she perceived from her grandparents merely because she had produced a boy? Or maybe because she didn't run away, but proved herself to be responsible, as their own daughter (Shaina) was not.
I definitely think the story is a comment on how Annie Proulx perceives the war. Both Sash and Dakotah join the service for opportunities that they don't have otherwise. I believe that is a stark commentary on our current situation for most of the "volunteers." Annie even used the word "volunteer."
I especially thought the writing about Dakotah's trip back to the ranch was some of Annie Proulx' best. She portrayed the contrast between Dakotah's fresh memories of the battleground in Iraq layered over the Wyoming landscape. Her reflections about all the dead boys of the neighborhood are also reminiscent of reflections about the war.
The last line of the story implies that Dakotah is done-for. She will be tits-up in a ditch because she is the wife of a brain-injured vet who barely knows her.
I'm not so sure. I see hope. She does not owe the Hicks anything, and her baby is dead. Ironic that at the time she is an injured vet and should get some comfort from her family, she gets none, in fact she is going to be dumped on by the Hicks, if she allows it.
I can't believe she will allow it. Especially not in the long run. I believe she will leave. I have to believe that.
The second to last paragraph, I thought was brilliant. "They sat frozen, like survivors in the aftermath of an explosion, each silently calculating his chances."
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The line in the movie (reunion scene, 1967) is: Bring me a fish, Daddy, a big fish and is spoken by the child playing Alma Jr at 3 years old, one Hannah Steward. Brooklyn Proulx is listed as Jenny, age 4 and Keanna Dube as Alma Jr, age 5. This must be the girls in the swing scene.
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The second to last paragraph, I thought was brilliant. "They sat frozen, like survivors in the aftermath of an explosion, each silently calculating his chances."
I agree, it is quite muscular particularly when combined with the first part of the paragraph that begins:
"The silence spread out like a rain-swollen river, lapping against the walls of the room, mounting over their heads". then
"They sat frozen, like survivors in the aftermath of an explosion, each silently calculating his chances".
The entire section is "O'Neillian" in tone and language and highly reminiscent of the final tableau from "Long Days Journey Into Night" in which the entire Tyrone brood sit frozen, paralyzed, unable to move in any direction and yet at some point, move they must.
There are, of course, several other O'Neill allusions throughout the series of stories. Consider this:
"Like vast clouds of steam from thermal springs in winter the years of things unsaid and now unsayable--admissions, declarations, shames, guilts, fears--rose around them......
But before he was out of the truck, trying tot guess if it was heart attack ......some how as a coat hanger is straightened to open a locked car and then bent again to its original shape, they torqued things almost to where they had been. Nothing ended nothing begun, nothing resolved".
Compare the above with a section of Edmund's famous soliloquy from "LDJIN".
" Like a saint's vision of beatitude, like the veil of things as they seem , drawn back by an unseen hand, for a second you see--and seeing the secret, are the secret. For a second there is meaning! then the hand lets the veil fall and you are alone, lost in the fog again, and you stumble on toward nowhere, for no good reason!"
And compare both with this from "Crystal and Fox" by Brian Friel:
"Once, maybe twice in your life, the fog lifts, and you get a glimpse, an intuition/ and suddenly you know that this can't be all there is to it--there has to be something better than this....And afterwards all your're left with is a vague memory of what you thought you saw; and that's what you hold on to---the good thing you thought you saw".
What we may be experiencing here is a thematic fusion of AP, O'Neill and even Friel in that the veiled reality that haunts the work of the latter two is to be discovered, as well, in the Wyoming stories of Annie Proulx. The characters presented by all three seem to contain, within their souls a "touch of the poet". Wounded by the perception of transcendent "otherness", of mystery, they can no longer find comfort in the homeland of family, country or religion.
Perhaps for a second they "see" the secret which escapes the sight of those around them and so they attempt to give it a shape, a form. But, in the end, they confess to being strangers who never feel at home, who do not really want and are not really wanted, who can never belong, who must always be a little in love with death.
Finally, they perceive the futility of their enterprise and like Edmund they cry:
"I couldn't touch what I tried to tell you just now. I just stammered...Stammering is the native eloquence of us fog people".
Still there is a sense of hope that exists just beneath the surface. Hope embodied in an unseen force for the Edmunds, the Fox Malarkeys, the Dakotahs and the Ennis' to leave the familiar in order to take up life on the boundary between two worlds. In other words each of their souls has been wounded by the experience of something beyond, alive and active within them, demanding that they reject the world-view of their cultures and set out on an unknown path.
I dunno, maybe it seemed to make more sense when it was just in my head!
Edited to fix quote
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The line in the movie (reunion scene, 1967) is: Bring me a fish, Daddy, a big fish and is spoken by the child playing Alma Jr at 3 years old, one Hannah Steward. Brooklyn Proulx is listed as Jenny, age 4 and Keanna Dube as Alma Jr, age 5. This must be the girls in the swing scene.
Tks for clearing that up Constant!
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You can take the ranch girl out of Wyoming/the land, but you can't take Wyoming/the land out of the ranch girl. Since landscapes loom so large in her other Wyoming stories, it seems likely this recurrent theme will be a thread in "Tits-Up," too. But the relationship of land to character isn't a direct, unmediated one, IMO; it seems that the land conditions those who live on it as part of a community, and it is the character's relation to the community so conditioned that sets the limits on actions and dreams. So Dakotah is the product of her environment at one remove from its harshness and uncaring, although those qualities are surely communicated to her through her grandparents.
In one sense, Dakotah is a character who is more deeply related to and entwined in her community than we see in BBM. Jack and Ennis seem to represent a limiting case in that their relationship is outside the bounds of what the community will allow. They leave the community and go into the wilds to realize their relationship, but they remain tethered to that community's values and prejudices. Dakotah leaves her husband and Wyoming for the service, only to be be ricocheted back to both, and in worse shape than she left.
Almost Marxist in its materialistic determination.
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Almost Marxist in its materialistic determination.
As in matter in motion....all things interconnected and interdependent?
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Hi, Ellen_re: Hope. Dakota seems to be falling back-she fought in the military, not her own idea, of course; then comes home to her "rightful" place as spouse-'You're his wife' the in-law tells her. And she is back in the hands of the people who let her son die; and who urged her to go get maimed in the War. Now she is stuck with everyone else's mistakes, it appears. Not sure she is not going to keep sinking and go tits up. She seems to be telling herself that, in the end. Sad. I do think AP is going hog-wild on the victimization of women theme, here. Not sure why, unless she feels there are still pockets of the misbegotten that have no voice out there, as you say. Or maybe its more, 'lest we forget'.
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Jo --
I think there is a reality that a girl like Dakotah can never really go far in life, due to road blocks, ignorance, lack of street smarts, and education.
I wonder if there is a story about Shaina's fate somewhere? Can you imagine? She ran off at the age of fifteen with one of her greasy friends. Where did she end up?
One of my favorite stories ever in the New Yorker was by E.L. Doctorow called "Joline" --- she was orphaned, married during high school, moved in with her husband's family and then seduced by his father, until the mom found out, so Joline had to leave -- on and on went her misfortunes, and she also had a child she did not get to keep.
What I liked about the story was the way it illuminated how a girl starting out at a disadvantage can be exploited so easily and cheaply by others, and never quite recover. Although Doctorow's Joline never had to go to war.
For me this story is another confirmation of the theme that grabbed me in Joline. Dakotah was doomed to her fate when her mother left her in the hospital -- in fact even before that -- because she wouldn't have been any better off if Shaina would have stayed.
Still. I know she is slipping down into the mud but something tells me she would rather die than stay put and take care of her maimed husband. I think she has a chance to figure out how to bear it or improve her fate.
I hope. --- My favorite character was her school counselor. Did Dakotah catch the irony when her counselor told her the most heartbreaking job in the world is being a high school counselor?
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I've actually toyed with becoming a high school counselor--I know it'd be tough, but I'd focus on the possible good I could do, if that's not too narcissistic/self-important. Of course, a lot of my advice might very well keep coming back to, "Get out of here and go someplace else," which is the last thing a lot of parents want strangers telling their kids.
Dakotah was definitely in a tough spot there, largely due to her marriage--she kept thinking different things would "save" her or at least get her out of her current situation (marriage, the military), and yet each one seemed to bring more and more misery until she winds up right back where she started, but now missing a limb.
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I hope. --- My favorite character was her school counselor. Did Dakotah catch the irony when her counselor told her the most heartbreaking job in the world is being a high school counselor?
I doubt that very much. ;) Good for you, hoping and all. That's one, at least!
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^^^^^
well, to tell you all the truth, I agree that the last line indicates Dakotah feels herself sinking into the ditch.
In a sense, we are all put in the position of the school counselor here. We know she can stand up and refuse to let it happen, but somehow, she doesn't seem to know it.
My hope comes from the fact that Dakotah has more potential than Ennis (for example.) Ennis, at the time he says "Jack I swear" -- has already solidified his character over more than 2 decades and in all that time he has chosen to keep his secret. Inside the story of Brokeback Mountain, Ennis is the only one in the world who knows the scope of what has happened in his life. He still chooses to keep it secret, including his dreams.
But I cannot accept that Dakotah is finished at this point in her life. She is down for the count right now, but what happens when you are lying tits up in a ditch, and you wake up anyway? Do you stay there? I don't think she will.
In fact, IMO Dakotah's story will really begin when she gathers up her strength to do something about it at a later date.
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Unfortunately, unless AP has already written another story about Dakotah for "Fine just the way it is," due out in September, we may never see the sequel. With this last collection, AP is moving on from Wyoming stories. Dakotah transplanted to California? Weirder things have happened, I suppose.
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Unfortunately, unless AP has already written another story about Dakotah for "Fine just the way it is," due out in September, we may never see the sequel. With this last collection, AP is moving on from Wyoming stories. Dakotah transplanted to California? Weirder things have happened, I suppose.
LOL, indeed they have. However, a Dakotah transplant would require an AP transplant would it not?
AP in California, hmmm, conjures thoughts of "Margo Channing in the Cub Room....."
Perhaps AP would consider "lending" Dakotah to Joan Didion.
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Ellen, I think the one thing that provides a degree of salvation, is that Dakotah has arlready left the ranch so to speak; she has been in the service, half way around the world. She is pulled back by tragedy. Its hard to say what she may have done, once she finished her tour, and got back, in one piece, to her child were he to be still living. AP has an interesting way of stacking the deck, rather exaggeratedly, and letting the character respond. Ennis, as you said, chose to simply withdraw...Dakotah has already made a trip to Denver, so to speak; she has seen the world outside of Wyoming, and had other experiences. So in a way, she is being given a choice-and she is seeming to fall back on tradition: Go home and be a ranch wife, more or less.
Ennis's mother died 43 miles out, presumably; Jack's mother didn't even travel for her son's funeral. These women most likely didn't recognize the choices, and certainly did not possess the economics to make them.
I think AP is indeed making a bit of a classic feminist statement about choosing one's fate, among her other little messages....
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Unfortunately, unless AP has already written another story about Dakotah for "Fine just the way it is," due out in September, we may never see the sequel. With this last collection, AP is moving on from Wyoming stories. Dakotah transplanted to California? Weirder things have happened, I suppose.
I don't know...
I've learned not to take AP's word as her final word. It's implied she may be involved with the libretto for the BBM Opera, per the Opera thread, for example, even though she's done talking about it. Not sure how solid that info is, of course. But it is not uncharacteristic of her, I think, to revisit themes-she does it all the time, sometimes, just changing the character's name, a la Diamond Felts/Jack Twist. And its very hard for famous authors not to succumb to popularity. Everyone's got an ego to some degree.
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I hope she does the opera libretto -- possibly to keep the project on track and not let it get far afield of her intent. She might partner with someone to do it.
Meanwhile, we have a small conundrum with two separate threads of discusion on "Tits up in a ditch." Most of it is here, some is in the New Yorker thread.
Just FYI. If we keep talking, we should probably choose, so nobody misses a comment in the discussion.
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I hope she does the opera libretto -- possibly to keep the project on track and not let it get far afield of her intent. She might partner with someone to do it.
Meanwhile, we have a small conundrum with two separate threads of discusion on "Tits up in a ditch." Most of it is here, some is in the New Yorker thread.
Just FYI. If we keep talking, we should probably choose, so nobody misses a comment in the discussion.
Great idea, Ellen. Since I haven't a subscription to TNY, and don't want to keep buying single copies at 4.50 a shot or trying to get it at the library, I"ve been following these discussions on the two threads on "Tits Up.." By the time we discuss the last of the Wyoming stories in the fall after Proulx's book comes out, I'll have a copy and feel ready to participate. Meantime, keep on rocking...!!!
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Unfortunately, unless AP has already written another story about Dakotah for "Fine just the way it is," due out in September, we may never see the sequel. With this last collection, AP is moving on from Wyoming stories. Dakotah transplanted to California? Weirder things have happened, I suppose.
I don't know...
I've learned not to take AP's word as her final word. It's implied she may be involved with the libretto for the BBM Opera, per the Opera thread, for example, even though she's done talking about it. Not sure how solid that info is, of course. But it is not uncharacteristic of her, I think, to revisit themes-she does it all the time, sometimes, just changing the character's name, a la Diamond Felts/Jack Twist. And its very hard for famous authors not to succumb to popularity. Everyone's got an ego to some degree.
Not sure what basis there is for second-guessing her about being finished with Wyoming stories or discussing BBM any further. If anything, her popularity has probably driven her to declare she won't answer questions about BBM anymore. It's not like she owes us anything beyond what she's written. To my mind, she's an author, not an attention-starved celebrity.
She will be involved in the libretto to at least the extent that she will grant exclusive rights for the story to the composer and librettist. She might even offer some advise, but I doubt she will actively participate in writing the libretto. She wasn't really in the loop in writing the screen play. And unless she has a musician's comprehension of modern operatic form and skills in translating between literary and operatic forms, she probably wouldn't be of much help. What's she going to say, "Too many notes?"
I, for one, look forward to the next project she tackles, whether or not it's set in Wyoming.
For a bang-up treatment of how female characters can be developed from one short story to the next, I would recommend the writings of Alice Munro. Her collection "Friendship, Hateship..." has a couple of such stories, as well as her only novel, which is really a series of short stories. Rewarding reading, there.
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I don't think second-guessing needs a foolproof basis; I'm just not convinced it's the last we'll be seeing. Fine if it is, but I'll wait it out. :)
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I can't believe she will allow it. Especially not in the long run. I believe she will leave. I have to believe that.
I too doubt that she would put up with it for long.
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I can't believe she will allow it. Especially not in the long run. I believe she will leave. I have to believe that.
I too doubt that she would put up with it for long.
The final paragraph on first reading seems to imply a fatal blow. It might well be, but is there anything to suggest that Dakotah might not necessarily be able to struggle out of that dark mud? She has survived so far, battered as she is, when others haven't.
Or is thinking there may be some hope for her being as deluded and unrealistic as Annie Proulx's Wyoming characters?
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I hope she does the opera libretto -- possibly to keep the project on track and not let it get far afield of her intent. She might partner with someone to do it.
Meanwhile, we have a small conundrum with two separate threads of discusion on "Tits up in a ditch." Most of it is here, some is in the New Yorker thread.
Just FYI. If we keep talking, we should probably choose, so nobody misses a comment in the discussion.
I am guessing the AP thread would be better; the New Yorker is too specific, so non-subscribers might miss the discussion of AP's work. IMO.
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Re: Dakotah....She is sent away by the family; and comes back because of them. Her whole life has the ring of tragic pre-destination. I would find it an uplifiting development, if she were to overcome her past-but how? She is now officially disabled, as is her husband. Her child is gone, so her link to life is thru the same damn family who basically set her up.
Does anyone see a character-based bit of dialogue in the short story that counters the tragedy at all?
I'll have to reread it. This is a fascinating discussion...
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Hi,
For anyone interested in a review of Annie Proulx's new short story collection click on the link below. Annie's book is number six on the list.........Bill
http://news.bookweb.org/6209.html
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Hi,
For anyone interested in a review of Annie Proulx's new short story collection click on the link below. Annie's book is number six on the list.........Bill
http://news.bookweb.org/6209.html
Thanks for passing this along Bill!
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Sounds like more of great Proulx -- can't wait to read this new collection. Tks for the review, Bill!
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I'm sorry for not knowing where or how to ask this, but I'm in dire need of help and I'm sure all you knowledgeable people can, so will you? I couldn't find Them Old Cowboy Songs anywhere and reading up summaries could not provide the same effect. Anyway, the point is, can anyone help me out in comparing and contrasting the characters of Brokeback Mountain and Them Old Cowboy Songs?
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I'm sorry for not knowing where or how to ask this, but I'm in dire need of help and I'm sure all you knowledgeable people can, so will you? I couldn't find Them Old Cowboy Songs anywhere and reading up summaries could not provide the same effect. Anyway, the point is, can anyone help me out in comparing and contrasting the characters of Brokeback Mountain and Them Old Cowboy Songs?
Hi aigoo! This is a great place to ask that question. My suggestion would be to pick up a copy of the May 5, 2008 'New Yorker' to do the comparison. I haven't read it yet and it isn't in print in any other form (that I know of) so I would guess that would be the best way. Anyone else have any thoughts or suggestions?
ETA: It looks like "Fine Just The Way It Is" doesn't come out (so to speak) till September 9th. So prior to that you need to pick up a copy of the New Yorker.
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I'm sorry for not knowing where or how to ask this, but I'm in dire need of help and I'm sure all you knowledgeable people can, so will you? I couldn't find Them Old Cowboy Songs anywhere and reading up summaries could not provide the same effect. Anyway, the point is, can anyone help me out in comparing and contrasting the characters of Brokeback Mountain and Them Old Cowboy Songs?
Hi aigoo! This is a great place to ask that question. My suggestion would be to pick up a copy of the May 5, 2008 'New Yorker' to do the comparison. I haven't read it yet and it isn't in print in any other form (that I know of) so I would guess that would be the best way. Anyone else have any thoughts or suggestions?
ETA: It looks like "Fine Just The Way It Is" doesn't come out (so to speak) till September 9th. So prior to that you need to pick up a copy of the New Yorker.
Welcome aigoo.
Michael is correct the complete collection is not available until September so your best bet is The New Yorker.
In addition, we have discussed ".....Cowboy Songs" as well as "Tits Up" on these threads.
Here is some of the discussion on "Tits Up". It may give assist in gathering your thoughts on the BBM/Cowboy Songs contrast and comparison.
http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=629.570 (http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=629.570)
Rosewood and I, as well as others, also disucussed ".....Cowboy Songs" in some detail. I will look for those postings as well.
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http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=27034.210 (http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=27034.210)
Here are some posts regarding Cowboy Songs.
Good luck, have fun.
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New York Times Sunday Book Review of Annie's new collection of Wyoming Stories:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/07/books/review/Carlson-t.html
"The deepest grief in the collection is borne by Dakotah Lister, who returns from Iraq injured and bereft. Raised by a feckless “trash rancher” and her resentful grandmother, Dakotah experiences her life as a relentless series of miscommunications and harm. Each rite is accompanied by embarrassment, mistake and mayhem. This kind of story could become brittle in a moment, could snap in half and sink, but Proulx buoys it with one stellar insight when Dakotah returns from serving in “Eye-rack.” On the drive home: “She realized that every ranch she passed had lost a boy, lost them early and late. . . . This was the waiting darkness that surrounded ranch boys, the dangerous growing up that canceled their favored status. The trip along this road was a roll call of grief.”
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HEADS UP:
Fine Just the Way It Is
Wyoming Stories 3
By Annie Proulx
This Edition: Hardcover
Publication Date: September 9, 2008
Our Price: $25.00
Availability: Ships on or around September 9
Think I"ll treat myself to some Proulx this weekend-been waiting for this publication, and now, finally....
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Jo,
I read through it last weekend, and posted a few thoughts on the "Books recently read" thread.
Sandy
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Numerous steamy additions to the tale have been sent to Annie Proulx, the Pulitzer prize-winning author of the short story Lee's film was based on.
And she's not happy about it. The film, she says, has become "the source of constant irritation in my private life".
"There are countless people out there who think the story is open range to explore their fantasies and to correct what they see as an unbearably disappointing story," she told The Wall Street Journal.
"They constantly send ghastly manuscripts and pornish rewrites of the story to me, expecting me to reply with praise and applause for 'fixing' the story. They certainly don't get the message that if you can't fix it, you've got to stand it."
More here: http://www.guardian.co.uk/film/2008/sep/17/heathledger.porn (http://www.guardian.co.uk/film/2008/sep/17/heathledger.porn)
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Actually, I think the full quote is here Castro:
WSJ: What effect did the success of "Brokeback Mountain" have on your writing life, if any?
Ms. Proulx: "Brokeback Mountain" has had little effect on my writing life, but is the source of constant irritation in my private life. There are countless people out there who think the story is open range to explore their fantasies and to correct what they see as an unbearably disappointing story. They constantly send ghastly manuscripts and pornish rewrites of the story to me, expecting me to reply with praise and applause for "fixing" the story. They certainly don't get the message that if you can't fix it you've got to stand it. Most of these "fix-it" tales have the character Ennis finding a husky boyfriend and living happily ever after, or discovering the character Jack is not really dead after all, or having the two men's children meet and marry, etc., etc. Nearly all of these remedial writers are men, and most of them begin, "I'm not gay but…." They do not understand the original story, they know nothing of copyright infringement—i.e., that the characters Jack Twist and Ennis Del Mar are my intellectual property—and, beneath every mangled rewrite is the unspoken assumption that because they are men they can write this story better than a woman can. They have not a clue that the original "Brokeback Mountain" was part of a collection of stories about Wyoming exploring mores and myths. The general impression I get is that they are bouncing off the film, not the story. There's more, but that is enough, ok?
from this article in the Wall Street Journal:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122065020058105139.html
Very odd that she's getting these stories from men who don't identify as gay - particularly as the vast majority of slash writers are women....
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WSJ: What effect did the success of "Brokeback Mountain" have on your writing life, if any?
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122065020058105139.html
Bless her heart. my faith was being severely tested over in Scene by Scene and Elements and Themes.
But my faith is restored.
One of my favorites:
They constantly send ghastly manuscripts and pornish rewrites of the story to me, expecting me to reply with praise and applause for "fixing" the story. They certainly don't get the message that if you can't fix it you've got to stand it. Most of these "fix-it" tales have the character Ennis finding a husky boyfriend and living happily ever after, or discovering the character Jack is not really dead after all, or having the two men's children meet and marry,
And another:
The failure to comprehend, not to look ahead at possibilities, to let things slide along, hoping for the best but getting the worst, is a theme that seems well suited to the short-story form.
And finally:
I like the phrase "emotional ignorance." I think that emotional ignorance defines most of us, especially Americans, who believe in romantic, lasting love and happiness. Both beliefs are conducive to an almost innocent expectation of a RIGHT to be loved and to be happy without earning it. Since those expectations are very often dashed in real life, emotional ignorance is often paid for with a laggard sense of betrayal, bitter tears and, eventually, a tablespoon of cynicism. How the cold light of eventuality falls on the characters and what they do with it certainly interests me.
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^^^^^ Amen
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"parious" is not a word I often see. (and have never used, to the best of my recollection).
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WSJ: What effect did the success of "Brokeback Mountain" have on your writing life, if any?
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122065020058105139.html
Bless her heart. my faith was being severely tested over in Scene by Scene and Elements and Themes.
But my faith is restored.
One of my favorites:
They constantly send ghastly manuscripts and pornish rewrites of the story to me, expecting me to reply with praise and applause for "fixing" the story. They certainly don't get the message that if you can't fix it you've got to stand it. Most of these "fix-it" tales have the character Ennis finding a husky boyfriend and living happily ever after, or discovering the character Jack is not really dead after all, or having the two men's children meet and marry,
And another:
The failure to comprehend, not to look ahead at possibilities, to let things slide along, hoping for the best but getting the worst, is a theme that seems well suited to the short-story form.
And finally:
I like the phrase "emotional ignorance." I think that emotional ignorance defines most of us, especially Americans, who believe in romantic, lasting love and happiness. Both beliefs are conducive to an almost innocent expectation of a RIGHT to be loved and to be happy without earning it. Since those expectations are very often dashed in real life, emotional ignorance is often paid for with a laggard sense of betrayal, bitter tears and, eventually, a tablespoon of cynicism. How the cold light of eventuality falls on the characters and what they do with it certainly interests me.
Thank you GaryD for the link to the article. The last two comments in your post, though, don't refer to the question about BBM that you cite above. In those responses, she was answering questions about her writing in general.
It's interesting that most of the fanfiction she has seen is from men, when most of the fanfic I've seen has been written by women. Perhaps more male writers are motivated to contact her. But, I'm content with the story as is. Unresolved, human.
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Very interesting to read in the WSJ interview that one of the writers Annie Proulx says influenced her is Barbara Baynton.
Baynton was an Australian writer whose best known work is a collection of five short stories under the title Bush Studies, published in 1902. One of the most popular Australian writers at the time and since then was Henry Lawson whose short stories are set in the bush, the outback. They contributed to the national mythology - a very Romantic view of the bush and Australians' view of ourselves. Bush Studies is a brilliantly bitter counterweight with its focus on a much harsher reality and the lives of women in the bush.
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Ah, you gotta love E Annie Proulx.....refreshing to read her harsh-as-daylight assessment of some of the attempts to soften the blow of her story. No way to do that, IMO.
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sorry im a bit late on this but it was on the radio this morning what was she ment to have send about BBM fans?
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She has given up answering questions about Brokeback Mountain.
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I have no facts for this analogy, but I think of Margaret Mitchell after writing Gone with the Wind (which, for what it is, is a magnificent novel). I heard her quoted as saying something like, "I think Scarlett was a better person afterwards, but I don't think she ever got Rhett back." So maybe she was always pummelled by questions on that topic, and I'm sure she got tired of them.
And it's more than safe to say that GWTW is in the same ballpark among novels as BBM is among short stories.
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Annie Proulx made the statement a few months back that she wouldn't entertain any more questions about brokeback Mountain, which fits in with her recent interview in the Wall Street Journal. The interview seems to suggest that she is exasperated at people who don't get it and feel compelled to rewrite her story.
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Ah, you gotta love E Annie Proulx.....refreshing to read her harsh-as-daylight assessment of some of the attempts to soften the blow of her story. No way to do that, IMO.
Jo, love your "harsh-as-daylight" comment re Proulx. I always admired her straight-from-the-shoulder remarks re BBM. I once posted that I preferred her ending of BBM rather than the film ending which I thought too H'wood, and a poster called me down about it. I think Annie would have defended me! ;D ;D
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Ah, you gotta love E Annie Proulx.....refreshing to read her harsh-as-daylight assessment of some of the attempts to soften the blow of her story. No way to do that, IMO.
Jo, love your "harsh-as-daylight" comment re Proulx. I always admired her straight-from-the-shoulder remarks re BBM. I once posted that I preferred her ending of BBM rather than the film ending which I thought too H'wood, and a poster called me down about it. I think Annie would have defended me! ;D ;D
Well, preference is a matter of personal opinion. The film spent a lot of time
fleshing out the details of their private lives with their families. It would not
have made sense to leave out any mention of family at the end. Diana Ossana
says that Annie Proulx gave her full approval of the script. Ending and all.
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The interview seems to suggest that she is exasperated at people who don't get it and feel compelled to rewrite her story.
I think that's more than fair to say. I also think that she is exasperated at people who are focusing on one short story in her substantial body of work. She had said that she was not doing to discuss 'Brokeback' some time ago.
This is, of course, not the first time that she has expressed exasperation at pop culture in general - she was extraordinarily upset about the way 'The Shipping News' was made into a movie - and her comments regarding this had a lot to do with people trying to supply happy endings for her stories. So clearly she is unhappy with this - whether in 'pornish rewrites' or in film adaptations.
Annie tends not to mince words, regardless of what she is talking about - remember this?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2006/mar/11/awardsandprizes.oscars2006
It is certainly unusual that she seems to be inundated with fan fiction from men who are saying 'I'm not gay, but....', when (as Lauren said) the majority of it that I have seen is from women. Perhaps the women who write slash just have the good common sense not to approach Annie with it.
I would not expect that suddenly everyone who has been writing 'Brokeback' slash would push back from their keyboards and say 'well, that's it, Annie doesn't like it' and write no more, however. That we are only on page 42 of the Annie thread here and have gone through innumerable fan fiction or actor based threads should put that thought to rest.
It also seems somewhat unrealistic to expect this in the light of the fact that people are taking inspiration from the story in a variety of art forms - there was recently a dance performance based on 'Brokeback' here in San Francisco, as well as the CD 'Meet Me On The Mountain' and the upcoming opera. This is only natural - as Marc indicates 'Gone With The Wind' has inspired works like 'The Wind Done Gone', which was sued by the estate of Margaret Mitchell. And, of course, Mary Shelley and Bram Stoker have had their characters appear in a variety of forms as well - some quite 'pornish' (for that see 'Blood for Dracula' a/k/a Andy Warhol's Dracula or Andy Warhol's Frankenstein - which was rated 'X' by MPAA).
Slash has existed for quite some time - from before computers when people were sending their typed Star Trek stories to one another via mail to now where it is much easier to do via computer. My own exposure to slash came before reading 'Brokeback' in the form of Stargate slash. I would imagine that Annie (who seems at home with reality and with the disappointments it can bring) would not expect that simply because she doesn't like it that it will stop. In the 'pornish' world we live in, with a very lucrative 'adult entertainment' world, that wouldn't be very realistic.
And, of course, if you can't fix it you've got to stand it.
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I just read that article and there's a lot of questions,
none of which we'll probably ever get answers, too,
about the BBM paragraph. I, as most have written,
am surprised she said most all the mailings she
gets are from men. And men who say they're not
gay, no less. One wonders why a straight man
would want to write more about the story anyway.
She knows the contents of what she's talking about,
so she must have read some of it, or someone else
has and told her about it.
If I were a published author, I don't know if I'd care if
others wrote slash concerning my work, but I certainly
wouldn't want to be bothered by them about it. No matter
how serious one might be about their slash work, and the
thought that if Annie only read it she would love it, the mere
fact that an author is not going to read thousands of pages
retreading their own creation just to find some worth in any
of it should forbid one to send it to them right there! So why
anyone would send it to her anyway, one can only wonder.
Until Brokeback Mountain, I had no idea there was
such a thing as slash. I wonder if Annie Proulx knows
how prevalent it is in so many genres?
If you WANT to get technical, though, what Larry M. and
Diana O. did -- even though it was in screenplay form, was
write some slash stories of their own. Diana said in her
Q&A this summer that she was interested in their families.
What were their wives thinking, etc. Their children. Exactly what
slash authors do. Wonder about what if or what was
happening? The difference is they had legal permission to do it.
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I also liked this little entry in the WSJ article, talking
about character names and such:
"One of the name traits of the (old) West that I like is the way
pioneer mothers gave their infant boys "girl" names such as
Carol, Helen, Marion and many others."
They did? Really? I've heard of John Wayne's
real name--Marion--but I never came across this
before. "A Boy Named Sue" perhaps? Although,
the new ranch hand on the Ponderosa was named
Candy.
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~snip~If you WANT to get technical, though, what Larry M. and
Diana O. did -- even though it was in screenplay form, was
write some slash stories of their own. Diana said in her
Q&A this summer that she was interested in their families.
What were their wives thinking, etc. Their children. Exactly what
slash authors do. Wonder about what if or what was
happening? The difference is they had legal permission to do it.
I think optioning a piece of fiction to turn into a screen play is pretty distinct from writing slash. And there is a difference in making slight alterations and additions to the overall story so that it makes sense in cinematic form. The importance of the motel scene, for example, was shifted later to Jack and Ennis' last meeting together so that a major dramatic climax would come closer to the end of the film. Ossana and McMurthy did not, for example, rewrite the story so that Jack's death was faked, or that Ennis ended up with Jack's son, both of which have appeared in slash. And Proulx was not kept out of the loop, she had a chance to look at and comment on the screenplay.
Ultimately, Proulx seems to have approved of their adaptation. The permission took the form of a legal contract, but it seems to me that it also implied that they received moral permission from her.
As a writer (of nonfiction), I get more upset when somebody like a critic or another author gets my ideas wrong than when someone gets them right and "borrows" them (e.g. plagarizes). So I understand her irritation. Maybe it's like, if you're going to steal something, steal something of value. :D
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After reading the commentary here I just wanted to repost what I posted in SD for those that might be interested in another opinion on her comments on BBM Fanfiction...
~snip~
A couple of things come to mind, firstly, I personally took offence to the Guardian article which someone sent me yesterday and then today I saw the original article where it came from in the US. I was really rather shocked to read this but in another way it didn't surprise me. I hope no one gets put out about this but I think this is a bigger issue at play here for AP to bark out like that.
I have always had the feeling that she was tired of this story, that there was a reluctance to even let the movie be made to start with and then after it came out an concerted effort by AP to put the whole thing behind here. I think she had no idea how her short little essay was going to morph into a worldwide phenomenon and then continue to this day as a passion for many people. I remember her own website in December 2005 saying she refused to talk about the story or movie anymore, I have always found her in public appearance reluctant to talk about it and recently in LA for the AMPAS showing where letters were read from Ang Lee, Larry Mc., other actors from the movie, and Diana Ossana was there in person, but nothing was received from AP saying anything about this watershed movie, and she is the person who started all this. I personally feel she is just tired of the whole thing and feels that it has become something larger than she can control.
Notwithstanding this, I really was taken aback with her comments, and I have shared my views privately with others just recently, I think they were insultive, rude to be honest, and I would expect more of her on this front.
Honestly, it doesn't surprise me that people might send her stories, send her their thoughts, send her their solutions to the pain the movie has caused. I don't think she has any obligation to read them, answer or anything, she can just as easily toss them in the bin, but is seems she has decided to read some at least and then feels the need to bark out because she doesn't like them, feels her own work is being sullied, etc. This I find hard to take. She may not like it but honestly saying nothing would have been much better in this instance. Chuck them out, tell her people to not forward them to her, ignore the whole issue if you must but to attack and belittle the people who are mainly doing this for love of the movie, as a way to heal themselves, as a method to sort out the emotions that the movie caused to me is petty and small of her.
I will always love this story of hers till the day I die, will appreciate her for bringing Jack Twist and Ennis Del Mar and their story to us, but I must admit this commentary from her has left a really bad taste in my mouth.
~snip~, most people have absolutely nothing, nothing to be ashamed off, and nothing they have done should make them feel bad or wrong. All that just flies in the face of the whole BBM message to me.
The second point I want to make is that her "facts" about fanfic in this universe shows me that something is really amiss, that she has no clue what is really happening and that somehow a few specific stories or authors have made it to her hands to read, and she has made blanket statements that are essetianllly wrong without truly looking into what this fandom is all about and the members and dynamics of it. Again this leaves a bad taste in my mouth because she is making statements without informing herself of all the facts.
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This is the second commentary in response to someone who thought maybe she was only just upset because people were sending her the stories :
I honestly didn't read it as simple as that, and I honestly find it hard to believe that the only fanfiction she has received are the type she qualifies, eg.written by "straight men, who think they have a better story, and believe she must like it."
Something really seems off to me, first of all how many people actually have her home address, nearly all her "fan mail" is going to go through her agents who would toss most of it out, so again something seemed screwy here. Does it make sense her agents would only send the fanfic that she describes?
I also think a lot of what she might get in terms of "fanfic" is just people trying to express themselves, trying to tell her that the story impacted them and that it has inspired them to write something, to continue or change the tale of Jack Twist and Ennis Del Mar - and not because her masterpiece needs or should be changed but because it is part of their expression and journey through the movie and OS, part of how they are dealing with it, how they are celebrating it and honouring it. For me that is nothing but praise to the author, in fact saying to her that her words and characters moved me so much that I was somehow inspired to write about them,
Again the tone of the article's "response" to fanfic just seems off to me.
Yes, there might be the few lunatics who send her something that says "well look at this Ms. Proulx, I done made your story better," but like I said, how and why would this even get to her to read and secondly I have to believe this is the minutist of minorities in our fandom.
I do agree with your comments about how this story will overshadow her for the rest of her life and this might for sure become irritating, just like I think Jake G. will be spending the rest of his acting career trying to reprise a role that had the impact, the lasting impact that Jake Twist had, and he may never be able to do that...so yes it might be frustrating to reach a zenith so quickly and then wonder how to get there again, but Jake was beyond kind and understanding when a pair of Brokies showed up for lunch on day in April and spend 3 hours with him bemoaning how BBM affected them. I am quite sure he has heard it all before but he sat there with grace and dignity and said all ther right things. So again this doesn't in my mind say that AP has any justification for her "very public" but to me negative comments.
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Isn't there an old saying that "Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery"...it doesn't seem she understands that to me!
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I also liked this little entry in the WSJ article, talking
about character names and such:
"One of the name traits of the (old) West that I like is the way
pioneer mothers gave their infant boys "girl" names such as
Carol, Helen, Marion and many others."
They did? Really? I've heard of John Wayne's
real name--Marion--but I never came across this
before. "A Boy Named Sue" perhaps? Although,
the new ranch hand on the Ponderosa was named
Candy.
I have heard this before...it sort of goes along with the tradition of 'breeching' which was common till the early 20th century:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breeching
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My favorite quote from the interview:
"A glance at any late-night talk show host will supply the devil's glib style."
Isn't that great? I can't wait to read about her "devil."
As for her comments re Brokeback -- I thought it was strange that she would pick that one aspect of Brokeback -- Slash -- as the topic of her response. Also, it's illuminating for us to know how she feels about it.
I think on the one hand she is proud of the story as a work of art, and she is glad the movie was also a work of art, and true to her story-- despite that, I have read recently that she's decided she never wants any of her stories to be made into a movie again.
In Wyoming she told a few of us that she has been harassed by the Christian right since BBM, so there is another negative affect on her life.
Also it seems she doesn't enjoy being famous for something that has taken on a pop nature. She is more familiar with the backroads of literary fame, which is almost no fame at all -- certainly not much recognition of her as a celebrity. Brokeback changed that for her.
Responding to DWTSG's post above -- I really don't think Annie cares what we think of her "barking." She has a right to say what she thinks and she doesn't count on any one of us for her livelihood. She has earned her independence as an artist and she has won a Pulitzer prize. She isn't really worried about anything other than the integrity of her work and she doesn't choose to put up with anything that seems a waste of time to her.
It also doesn't matter whether or not she is clueless about slash (which I very much doubt.) I think she just doesn't care about it. What she cares about is her characters and it does bother her to see her vision of the characters taken out of the context where she placed them. It's easy to understand why she feels that way.
Having said that, I agree with Michael -- I see no reason for the slash world to let these comments upset anyone. If I were a slash writer I would go on my merry way -- but probably never send her a manuscript. ;)
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Responding to DWTSG's post above -- I really don't think Annie cares what we think of her "barking." She has a right to say what she thinks and she doesn't count on any one of us for her livelihood. She has earned her independence as an artist and she has won a Pulitzer prize. She isn't really worried about anything other than the integrity of her work and she doesn't choose to put up with anything that seems a waste of time to her.
It also doesn't matter whether or not she is clueless about slash (which I very much doubt.) I think she just doesn't care about it. What she cares about is her characters and it does bother her to see her vision of the characters taken out of the context where she placed them. It's easy to understand why she feels that way.
Having said that, I agree with Michael -- I see no reason for the slash world to let these comments upset anyone. If I were a slash writer I would go on my merry way -- but probably never send her a manuscript. ;)
Ellen, I agree, I don't think she gives a shit what we think, or she wouldn't have said what she did.
Most of you know I am a huge proponent of free speech and of course she has the right to say what she wants and to makes comments on her feelings towards fanfic, she most definitely does but as per another post I made in SD, to what purpose does her comment serve. To let the world know her opinion on the topic, so fine but to me the only impact is going to be a lot of upset, hurt and scared people, writers who think they have disrespected her, people who think these wirters are wrong, etc. etc. What does that serve?
But as I said she has all the right to make the statement but it just surprised me given what she has said in the past about what motivated her, how she saw the pain of rural homophobia, etc. She has intentionally or not hurt people with that statement, and to be honest, if she had wanted to say something I think it could have be phrased a lot more subtlely, not so direct and petty sounding and not so deaming to what I see as an art form in itself. And she could have easily left behind the "between the lines' comment about these being straight men who just don't admit they are homosexual...again what did that serve to advance!
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Well, like Lyle, she probably doubts that straight men 1) would spend much time re-writing the story or 2) that any man needs to avow whether he is straight or gay as a sort of qualifier.
I think she is interested in justice, as you say, but not personal lip service to making slash writers -- who are both straight and gay -- feel good just for the sake of it. Fanfiction or slash is different than the writing she does.
Take the old saying you quoted above -- imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.
Usually that is said when someone feels upset because their original idea has been copied. It may or may not be true, that it is a sincere form of flattery. It could just be an attention grab or a lack of originality.
I'm not saying that is what slash is. I'm saying that Annie Proulx doesn't swallow these old bromides whole -- she understands their limitations and she is confident -- much more than us mortals are -- she is confident enough to go off the beaten path.
We all prefer a gracious response, such as we might get from Jake Gyllenhaal -- because even though he must sometimes get upset with paparazzi and fame, he realizes many of his fans hold him to high standards and he wouldn't want to hurt anyone's feelings.
But Annie is just not in that same world.
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Ah, you gotta love E Annie Proulx.....refreshing to read her harsh-as-daylight assessment of some of the attempts to soften the blow of her story. No way to do that, IMO.
Jo, love your "harsh-as-daylight" comment re Proulx. I always admired her straight-from-the-shoulder remarks re BBM. I once posted that I preferred her ending of BBM rather than the film ending which I thought too H'wood, and a poster called me down about it. I think Annie would have defended me! ;D ;D
Well, preference is a matter of personal opinion. The film spent a lot of time
fleshing out the details of their private lives with their families. It would not
have made sense to leave out any mention of family at the end. Diana Ossana
says that Annie Proulx gave her full approval of the script. Ending and all.
Yes, I know she did, and agree preference is a matter of opinion. My opinion, though, has always been my preference for the book's ending rather than the film ending. Proulx also questioned the motel scene -- I believe she and Ang exchanged quite a bit of discussion about it. SHe then agree that the film motel scene stand. Again, I preferred the book motel scene -- it was pivotal as to how Ennis revealed his feelings toward Jack.
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Thank you GaryD for the link to the article. The last two comments in your post, though, don't refer to the question about BBM that you cite above. In those responses, she was answering questions about her writing in general.
It's interesting that most of the fanfiction she has seen is from men, when most of the fanfic I've seen has been written by women. Perhaps more male writers are motivated to contact her. But, I'm content with the story as is. Unresolved, human.
You are welcome but, of course, as you may have subsequently noticed, Michael was the one who was kind enough to provide us with the WSJ link. I simply included it in my quote response.
Actually the last two comments I quoted from the article are the ones that interest me and that I find to be the most relevant in terms of their relationship to the discussions on this and other threads.
While I harbor some strong opinions regarding slash fiction and its use as self help therapy and especially regarding the possible theft of intellectual property for personal gain, and while I am circumspect regarding it's capacity to aid the fledgling writer, most of it appears to be just a harmless hobby affording some degree of pleasure and accomplishment to those who choose to participate.
While the interview in question contains information from AP regarding her "writing in general", the thrust of the article pertains to the three collections of Wyoming short stories. Each of these collections carries its own epitaph but each collection also seems to address shared and common themes. The ability of an author to successfully explain and reveal consistent thematic subtexts through plot and character is of interest to me.
As an example, in each of the three collections AP weaves similar themes regarding truth versus illusion, myth versus reality, and the potential destructive consequences of dealing with social and physical environments which are harsh, hostile and even deadly. Furthermore, she is fascinated by placing specific characters in specific thematic and environmental situations and then examining the consequences of their choices.
AP has certainly mastered the art of the short story form. She has also, I think, demonstrated a unique ability to use the form so that each story serves as a building block in the overall construction of a complete thematic arc.
Several of the stories are so well crafted in terms of plot and character development that they are capable of standing on their own as definitive representations of these themes. "Brokeback Mountain", "Them Old Cowboy Songs", and "Tits Up in the Ditch", I think certainly fall into this category.
Each address specific themes such as misogyny, homophobia, abuse, and mythic rugged individualism, among others. The characters exhibit specific motivations for their behavior, and react to their plight with specific emotions such as fear, love, shame, anger. However, beyond this specificity, the stories fully address the more general over-arching themes regarding the always ironic and often tragic consequences of subscribing to illusion over truth, myth over reality.
In this way the stories attain a certain universality that reaches beyond specific subject matter, character and plot structure.
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Isn't there an old saying that "Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery"...it doesn't seem she understands that to me!
This doesn't work as defense in plagarism cases.
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Isn't there an old saying that "Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery"...it doesn't seem she understands that to me!
This doesn't work as defense in plagarism cases.
I don't see fanfic as plagarism in the least...
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Actually the last two comments I quoted from the article are the ones that interest me and that I find to be the most relevant in terms of their relationship to the discussions on this and other threads.
While I harbor some strong opinions regarding slash fiction and its use as self help therapy and especially regarding the possible theft of intellectual property for personal gain, and while I am circumspect regarding it's capacity to aid the fledgling writer, most of it appears to be just a harmless hobby affording some degree of pleasure and accomplishment to those who choose to participate.
While the interview in question contains information from AP regarding her "writing in general", the thrust of the article pertains to the three collections of Wyoming short stories. Each of these collections carries its own epitaph but each collection also seems to address shared and common themes. The ability of an author to successfully explain and reveal consistent thematic subtexts through plot and character is of interest to me.
As an example, in each of the three collections AP weaves similar themes regarding truth versus illusion, myth versus reality, and the potential destructive consequences of dealing with social and physical environments which are harsh, hostile and even deadly. Furthermore, she is fascinated by placing specific characters in specific thematic and environmental situations and then examining the consequences of their choices.
AP has certainly mastered the art of the short story form. She has also, I think, demonstrated a unique ability to use the form so that each story serves as a building block in the overall construction of a complete thematic arc.
Several of the stories are so well crafted in terms of plot and character development that they are capable of standing on their own as definitive representations of these themes. "Brokeback Mountain", "Them Old Cowboy Songs", and "Tits Up in the Ditch", I think certainly fall into this category.
Each address specific themes such as misogyny, homophobia, abuse, and mythic rugged individualism, among others. The characters exhibit specific motivations for their behavior, and react to their plight with specific emotions such as fear, love, shame, anger. However, beyond this specificity, the stories fully address the more general over-arching themes regarding the always ironic and often tragic consequences of subscribing to illusion over truth, myth over reality.
In this way the stories attain a certain universality that reaches beyond specific subject matter, character and plot structure.
Absolutely, garyd!
The people Annie Proulx complained about just don't get it. Or, as I speculated elsewhere, perhaps the so-called "I'm not gay, but" male writers who have sent her "improvements" on BBM are pursuing some kind of agenda.
Unfortunately, the success of the movie has plunged Annie Proulx into the idiocy of the celebrity culture and I interpret her "barking" as an example of her resistance to being taken over and to herself and her work demeaned by it. It is not a matter of 'popular" culture, but of commercial culture, the prostitution of anything and everything just to make money. She has worked long and hard to hone her art. With her achievement and at her age, she shouldn't have to suffer fools gladly.
I imagine the WSJ interview was part of the promotion of the third book of Wyoming stories demanded by her publisher, perhaps a necessary evil in today's world, overcrowded with new books. Writers are often uncomfortable with promotional tours and endless series of interviews and rightly so. I am grateful for such insights into the work as such interviews provide for me as a reader, but interviewers often go for personal information that is not relevant to the work. Some interviewers write negative stories when a writer is resistant to personal intrusion or tries to restrict their comments to the work. A piece of work should stand on its own, or be discussed in the context of the body of work and the culture.
As a serious writer who feels she has more to develop, Annie Proulx is within her rights to refuse to answer any more questions on BBM. The story and the two characters obsessed her during the long process of studying for and writing the story - 60-something drafts, wasn't it? From her published comments, I think she was highly appreciative of and grateful to the brilliant Heath Ledger for the insights into Ennis Del Mar that he brought out in the movie, things that were implicit in her characterization, or consonant with it, not invented to assuage Heath Ledger's private needs. She has said that she wrote the comic novel That Old Ace in the Hole to get Ennis and Jack out of her head, a healthy stratagem it seems to me.
To the extent that people are re-writing BBM as a form of psychotherapy, that's fine as a personal and private activity, perhaps shared within a supportive group of people with similar needs. Usually, in group psychotherapy, nothing goes outside the group and everything is kept confidential. But to send re-writes of BBM to Annie Proulx would be presumptuous, intrusive and could even become something like harassment. She is a writer, not a psychotherapist; a serious writer, not a vulgar sensationalist TV "personality" along the lines of Jerry Springer.
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I will always love this story of hers till the day I die, will appreciate her for bringing Jack Twist and Ennis Del Mar and their story to us, but I must admit this commentary from her has left a really bad taste in my mouth.
THANK YOU ! :">
I have read the last 3 pages of this thread on this subject and finally found one that said everything I wanted to say.
I mean what sort of ding-a-ling sends a famous author their interpretation of what they think the authors story should have been?
Talk about pompous!
Poor Annie, having to deal with so much love and adoration about this story !
The screenwriters were more than generous, with their words, using almost the entire short story exactly, while consistantly yielding respectfully and humbling to the short story and it's author whenever they were interviewed or presented with an award.
Brokeback Mountain received high praise, numerous nominations and several awards. And almost 3 years later it is still being talked about by the hundreds (thousands?) of people who were, for some reason, changed, freed, enlightened..or whatever......by this movie....that would not have existed if it weren't for Annie's short story. Yeah, it must be so tuff on her. Sorry about the sarcasm, but seriously....wwwwhhaaaaaaa.
stepping off of box now >:(
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The people Annie Proulx complained about just don't get it. Or, as I speculated elsewhere, perhaps the so-called "I'm not gay, but" male writers who have sent her "improvements" on BBM are pursuing some kind of agenda.
I would love to read your speculation...mind letting me know where you did this speculation. And quite honestly, maybe AP doesn't get it...
Unfortunately, the success of the movie has plunged Annie Proulx into the idiocy of the celebrity culture and I interpret her "barking" as an example of her resistance to being taken over and to herself and her work demeaned by it. It is not a matter of 'popular" culture, but of commercial culture, the prostitution of anything and everything just to make money. She has worked long and hard to hone her art. With her achievement and at her age, she shouldn't have to suffer fools gladly.
I really have no problem with her "barking" persay but what was gained by the comment she made except for a bunch of fanfic writers have been made unsure of themselves, have been made to think that maybe they are doing something wrong...was she trying to achieve that?
And fanfic has absolutely no money involved in it...none, zilch, nada...no money to be made here, just hours of pouring your thoughts and soul into the characters and zilch to show for it, monetary wise that is!
As a serious writer who feels she has more to develop, Annie Proulx is within her rights to refuse to answer any more questions on BBM.
Completely agree with you there, she really has the right to do what she wants about BBM, I have personally never suggested otherwise.
To the extent that people are re-writing BBM as a form of psychotherapy, that's fine as a personal and private activity, perhaps shared within a supportive group of people with similar needs. Usually, in group psychotherapy, nothing goes outside the group and everything is kept confidential. But to send re-writes of BBM to Annie Proulx would be presumptuous, intrusive and could even become something like harassment. She is a writer, not a psychotherapist; a serious writer, not a vulgar sensationalist TV "personality" along the lines of Jerry Springer.
Why do you assume it is pschotherapy, can it not just be a tribute to the original art, the original masterpiece, as a humble interpretation of the work, as someone's own way of honouring it. For sure some, maybe more than some fanfic about BBM was done in a way to heal, to understand what had happened, to maybe find a way to fix the pain, but I know much has also just been done because some people just don't know how else to pay tribute to it, and that by writing about Jack Twist and Ennis Del Mar, by taking their story to other places, venues, worlds, by trying to show the torture of their story in another light, they are in fact trying to show how much the orginal masterpiece moved them, how brilliant it actually is..,
All we have is her one comment about some people sending their interpretations of the characters to her, we don't know for sure that the sender meant it as a re-write or even an improvement on the story. It is more than obvious that AP doesn't or didn't like the fanfic that she commented on in the WSJ article but I still feel that the blocks don't line up in her comment, that she was expressing a larger frustration that may stem from as you say the ongoing barrage over BBM and the entrace of the story and characters into modern day culture...maybe something she didn't want or expect! And maybe quite possibly because she will be known "in modern day culture" to the day she dies as the person who wrote BBM, and not as an accomplished writer, even though in fact she is both.
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Ah, you gotta love E Annie Proulx.....refreshing to read her harsh-as-daylight assessment of some of the attempts to soften the blow of her story. No way to do that, IMO.
Jo, love your "harsh-as-daylight" comment re Proulx. I always admired her straight-from-the-shoulder remarks re BBM. I once posted that I preferred her ending of BBM rather than the film ending which I thought too H'wood, and a poster called me down about it. I think Annie would have defended me! ;D ;D
I'm sure she would have at least silently agreed with you-or just smiled, as seems to be the way in which she deals. :D ;)
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The people Annie Proulx complained about just don't get it. Or, as I speculated elsewhere, perhaps the so-called "I'm not gay, but" male writers who have sent her "improvements" on BBM are pursuing some kind of agenda.
I would love to read your speculation...mind letting me know where you did this speculation. And quite honestly, maybe AP doesn't get it...
Unfortunately, the success of the movie has plunged Annie Proulx into the idiocy of the celebrity culture and I interpret her "barking" as an example of her resistance to being taken over and to herself and her work demeaned by it. It is not a matter of 'popular" culture, but of commercial culture, the prostitution of anything and everything just to make money. She has worked long and hard to hone her art. With her achievement and at her age, she shouldn't have to suffer fools gladly.
I really have no problem with her "barking" persay but what was gained by the comment she made except for a bunch of fanfic writers have been made unsure of themselves, have been made to think that maybe they are doing something wrong...was she trying to achieve that?
And fanfic has absolutely no money involved in it...none, zilch, nada...no money to be made here, just hours of pouring your thoughts and soul into the characters and zilch to show for it, monetary wise that is!
As a serious writer who feels she has more to develop, Annie Proulx is within her rights to refuse to answer any more questions on BBM.
Completely agree with you there, she really has the right to do what she wants about BBM, I have personally never suggested otherwise.
To the extent that people are re-writing BBM as a form of psychotherapy, that's fine as a personal and private activity, perhaps shared within a supportive group of people with similar needs. Usually, in group psychotherapy, nothing goes outside the group and everything is kept confidential. But to send re-writes of BBM to Annie Proulx would be presumptuous, intrusive and could even become something like harassment. She is a writer, not a psychotherapist; a serious writer, not a vulgar sensationalist TV "personality" along the lines of Jerry Springer.
Why do you assume it is pschotherapy, can it not just be a tribute to the original art, the original masterpiece, as a humble interpretation of the work, as someone's own way of honouring it. For sure some, maybe more than some fanfic about BBM was done in a way to heal, to understand what had happened, to maybe find a way to fix the pain, but I know much has also just been done because some people just don't know how else to pay tribute to it, and that by writing about Jack Twist and Ennis Del Mar, by taking their story to other places, venues, worlds, by trying to show the torture of their story in another light, they are in fact trying to show how much the orginal masterpiece moved them, how brilliant it actually is..,
All we have is her one comment about some people sending their interpretations of the characters to her, we don't know for sure that the sender meant it as a re-write or even an improvement on the story. It is more than obvious that AP doesn't or didn't like the fanfic that she commented on in the WSJ article but I still feel that the blocks don't line up in her comment, that she was expressing a larger frustration that may stem from as you say the ongoing barrage over BBM and the entrace of the story and characters into modern day culture...maybe something she didn't want or expect! And maybe quite possibly because she will be known "in modern day culture" to the day she dies as the person who wrote BBM, and not as an accomplished writer, even though in fact she is both.
My speculative comment, DWTSGB, was over on the Response to TDS thread and I didn't develop it because it was just a vague notion. There were people in the homosexual worlds who didn't like the movie or the story if they read it. Not to mention homophobes, whether they were heterosexuals or closeted homosexuals.
I'm not sure if Annie Proulx was talking about BBM fanfic in general or a particular subset of it thrust upon her by "I'm not gay, but"-men who have written pornish "improvements". Her comment didn't seem to me to refer necessarily to people who write fanfic for themselves, given that as I understand it, most fanfic writers are women..
I understood that fanfic is not commercial and not written for profit, but much of what passes for popular culture in the mass-media is entirely commercial, mercenary and utterly false. I think a great deal of the comment in the mass-media about the film of BBM falls into that category.
I also understand the notion of writing responses to BBM. as a tribute to the story and the possibility of responses being good writing in themselves. I didn't characterize all fanfic as psychotherapy, but wrote "To the extent that people are re-writing BBM as a form of psychotherapy" meaning that some of it is. I do also know from reading posts on our forum that a lot of people have felt very, very disturbed by the movie and/or the story and have needed some way of trying to work out whatever deep personal issues or problems BBM evoked for them and some of them may do it through fanfic.
When I first read the story, I found it so grim, so bleak that I put it aside once I'd finished it, but felt no wish to change it in any way. I would seek what I was looking for at the time from other books. The film was deeply, deeply moving and tragic as it is, I would not want to change it. The film and the discussions on this forum took me back to the story several times and I gained a deeper appreciation of it. Both the story and the film have their own integrity as realizations of Annie Proulx's themes and they still move me and I think always will. Such a masterpiece must inspire others to devise responses in other forms of art and literature, some of which will be important and valuable in their own right. After all, a great deal of our literary and artistic heritage consists of original responses to and reworkings of classic stories. BBM is, I think, a classic, and it also fits in to more than one established genre, as Eric Patterson has argued.
I stopped reading most of the threads on the film and the story many moons ago, because it began to feel obsessive and because one or two threads seemed to be inventing things that to my mind are just not there in the story or the film. Although I maintain an interest in new work on BBM, I don't read fanfic, because as I wrote above, I think the story and the film have their own integrity. I found it more interesting to read Annie Proulx's other work and got involved in the book club thread discussions of her stories and other books.
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THANK YOU ! :">
I have read the last 3 pages of this thread on this subject and finally found one that said everything I wanted to say.
I mean what sort of ding-a-ling sends a famous author their interpretation of what they think the authors story should have been?
Talk about pompous!
Poor Annie, having to deal with so much love and adoration about this story !
The screenwriters were more than generous, with their words, using almost the entire short story exactly, while consistantly yielding respectfully and humbling to the short story and it's author whenever they were interviewed or presented with an award.
Brokeback Mountain received high praise, numerous nominations and several awards. And almost 3 years later it is still being talked about by the hundreds (thousands?) of people who were, for some reason, changed, freed, enlightened..or whatever......by this movie....that would not have existed if it weren't for Annie's short story. Yeah, it must be so tuff on her. Sorry about the sarcasm, but seriously....wwwwhhaaaaaaa.
stepping off of box now >:(
I think Annie Proulx, like all of us, would prefer that her work be understood and the praise be awarded on the basis of a real understanding of what her BBM story is, (and I think she felt the film was pretty faithful to the story, if not absolutely so). I doubt that she would have any delusions based on celebrity treatment.
The specific things she complains of - pornish "improvements" - are not instances of love and adoration, quite the contrary.
modified to fix quote
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Isn't there an old saying that "Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery"...it doesn't seem she understands that to me!
This doesn't work as defense in plagarism cases.
I don't see fanfic as plagarism in the least...
The characters of Jack Twist and Ennis Del Mar are part of Annie Proulx's intellectual property, just as Harry Potter is part of J.K. Rowling's. So I can easily imagine a lawsuit issuing forth if someone decided to publish a story that contained those characters and the major outlines of BBM. Proulx did raise this objection to fanfiction in her WSJ interview. You could always test the hypothesis by taking a piece of your fanfiction to a magazine or publisher.
She also took fanfiction as a criticism of her own work, as an implicit claim that her story was flawed in some way and could be improved upon. So her irritation is understandable.
Like garyd, I tend to see fanction as a relatively harmless and even enjoyable way to pass the time. Some folks may even develop writing skills in the process. I remember copying out long pages by hand of authors I admired. I think it was helpful in developing style.
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cross-posted from "Respond to the Daily Sheet" thread:
I think Annie P. has trouble with the idea that someone can "improve" on her spare writing (60+ re-writes of BBM) --
one point made often by writers who work seriously at their craft is how easy others think it is to write. Georgie Anne Geyer just used this story recently -- she sat next to a general at dinner-- someone asked him what he will do when he retires. He answered: "write a book." GeorgieA.G. says she responded -- "and when I retire, I'm going to be a general."
In other words, I presume Annie has a very sophisticated appreciation for good writing.
She also said she detects a faint suggestion from the male writers that because they are male, they can write about Ennis and Jack and the entire subject better than she can.
Which I don't doubt is an issue, because IMO one of the most amazing things about the story is how right she got it -- it almost seems like a miracle. Plenty of men have remarked on this as well.
******
IMHO:
1) The WSJ quote seems 1-dimensional -- that is, we all can name some other aspects to this -- other reasons why BBM has impacted AP's personal life, other writers of slash besides men who claim to be straight, etc.
2) The comment seems very much in the moment -- that TODAY this aspect of the aftermath of BBM is uppermost on her mind. Another day, it might be something else.
3) The comment may have been edited by WSJ. They are putting together an interview to enlighten their audience, many of whom have no knowledge of the slash world. Probably WSJ found this answer somewhat "sexy" and the closest they can get to any current commentary on BBM from the author.
So many of us are here because we had no choice but to work out the story in our minds. Some have done it by analysis of the scenes and the characters. Some do it by reading AP's other work. Some do it by writing slash and sharing it.
If you're a slash writer, you do what you gotta do, and as long as it's right for you (and doesn't break any laws) you just go on doing what you gotta do. I don't see any controversy.
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Wonder if Shakespeare would have griped about writing Romeo and Juliet. :D
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Isn't there an old saying that "Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery"...it doesn't seem she understands that to me!
This doesn't work as defense in plagarism cases.
I don't see fanfic as plagarism in the least...
The characters of Jack Twist and Ennis Del Mar are part of Annie Proulx's intellectual property, just as Harry Potter is part of J.K. Rowling's. So I can easily imagine a lawsuit issuing forth if someone decided to publish a story that contained those characters and the major outlines of BBM. Proulx did raise this objection to fanfiction in her WSJ interview. You could always test the hypothesis by taking a piece of your fanfiction to a magazine or publisher.
She also took fanfiction as a criticism of her own work, as an implicit claim that her story was flawed in some way and could be improved upon. So her irritation is understandable.
Like garyd, I tend to see fanction as a relatively harmless and even enjoyable way to pass the time. Some folks may even develop writing skills in the process. I remember copying out long pages by hand of authors I admired. I think it was helpful in developing style.
Oh, I do agree with you completely in that regard but then in fact it is not fanfic per say as it is defined broadly by the communites...it then becomes someone plagarising someone else's work for profitable gain, but even that itself probably has some grey areas I suspect.
And the hypothesis within this fandom have already been tested in at least 3 known instances where some sort of commercial gain was happening (as dubious as it was in some of these instances) and the action was halted by the relevant parties - and this has also happened in other fandoms.
Well that was sort of my original problem, her one sided criticsm of fanfic, and to me showed her complete lack of understanding of the topic. I don't personally know one single fanfiction writer who has ever claimed that anything they wrote was better than the OS, infact completely opposite, nearly every writer sees themself as nothing more than a shadow of the masterpiece, and the OS as being the inspiration for the writing - so like I said AP seems to not have any understanding about the fanfic world, and nothing about the BBM one, IMO.
The problem I had and this really relates to something another poster said earlier about how statements can be then become part of the poplular culture...a lot of people read WSJ, how do you think someone who knows nothing about fanfic, knows nothing about motivations, etc., etc. will now view this community...probably like a bunch of plagarising, sex-crazed perverts who are so stupid that they actually think they can write something that trumps the OS and they are preposterous enough to send it to the author. Hmmmm, sort of seeing the damage that may have been done...
I will repeat that I still love this story, am thankful for her for bringing Jack Twist and Ennis Del Mar's story to us, thankful for her letting the movie be made, still completely believe that she can have any opinion she wants on the topic of fanfic (love it, hate it, whatever), but I still also believe she could have handled this better, could have been more sensitive to the topic, could have spent a bit more time realising that 99% of the writers are not "frustrated homosexual men trying to claim to be straight that write better sex scenes and really know the true tale of Jack Twist and Ennis Del Mar," because right now that thought is going through a lot of people's heads!
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THANK YOU ! :">
I have read the last 3 pages of this thread on this subject and finally found one that said everything I wanted to say.
I mean what sort of ding-a-ling sends a famous author their interpretation of what they think the authors story should have been?
Talk about pompous!
Poor Annie, having to deal with so much love and adoration about this story !
The screenwriters were more than generous, with their words, using almost the entire short story exactly, while consistantly yielding respectfully and humbling to the short story and it's author whenever they were interviewed or presented with an award.
Brokeback Mountain received high praise, numerous nominations and several awards. And almost 3 years later it is still being talked about by the hundreds (thousands?) of people who were, for some reason, changed, freed, enlightened..or whatever......by this movie....that would not have existed if it weren't for Annie's short story. Yeah, it must be so tuff on her. Sorry about the sarcasm, but seriously....wwwwhhaaaaaaa.
stepping off of box now >:(
I think Annie Proulx, like all of us, would prefer that her work be understood and the praise be awarded on the basis of a real understanding of what her BBM story is, (and I think she felt the film was pretty faithful to the story, if not absolutely so). I doubt that she would have any delusions based on celebrity treatment.
The specific things she complains of - pornish "improvements" - are not instances of love and adoration, quite the contrary.
modified to fix quote
That's an interesting concept for sure...but where I disagree is that maybe to AP an addtional sex scene between Jack and Ennis is a "pornish imporvement" as she kept that part of her story to a bare minimum, let the feelings of the words speak the emotions and feelings between the characters, but for a fanfic writer, expressing their love of the characters through a very detailed written sex (or should I say love) scene is not in the least a "pornish imporvement" but infact a way of expressing what many writers hope that Jack and Ennis had when together, maybe it is all fantasy but it is the feelings of the writer, and many, many times they are not in the least bit pornish but in fact very riveting love scenes that let you image how they might have been together in that very intimate way...these scenes are not written to let people get their rocks off but are written to express the love between two people...a very big difference IMO!
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If you're a slash writer, you do what you gotta do, and as long as it's right for you (and doesn't break any laws) you just go on doing what you gotta do. I don't see any controversy.
That is a nice sentiment Ellen and I wish it were so true but you know as well as I that there are a very large bunch of tender souls in this fandom and critique sends many of them scurring to the mountains, and while I have always tried to preach that people shouldn't take critism so hard, should just be able to move past when they don't like what is being said, we have seen massive upheavals in the fandom and that is usually just caused by internal-fandom dynamics, with this extrenal force being now played, I am not sure what will happen to some writers or how they will interpret it...
As I said in the post above, I don't judge AP's right to say what she feels, it was just as you said in your post, it seems one-dimensional, off the cuff, a thought of the moment, and to me really served no purpose and it just seemed to me that she would be above that...oh well... :-\
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~snip~If you WANT to get technical, though, what Larry M. and
Diana O. did -- even though it was in screenplay form, was
write some slash stories of their own. Diana said in her
Q&A this summer that she was interested in their families.
What were their wives thinking, etc. Their children. Exactly what
slash authors do. Wonder about what if or what was
happening? The difference is they had legal permission to do it.
I think optioning a piece of fiction to turn into a screen play is pretty distinct from writing slash. And there is a difference in making slight alterations and additions to the overall story so that it makes sense in cinematic form. The importance of the motel scene, for example, was shifted later to Jack and Ennis' last meeting together so that a major dramatic climax would come closer to the end of the film or that Ennis ended up with Jack's son, both of which have appeared in slash. And Proulx was not kept out of the loop, she had a chance to look at and comment on the screenplay.
Ultimately, Proulx seems to have approved of their adaptation. The permission took the form of a legal contract, but it seems to me that it also implied that they received moral permission from her.
As a writer (of nonfiction), I get more upset when somebody like a critic or another author gets my ideas wrong than when someone gets them right and "borrows" them (e.g. plagarizes). So I understand her irritation. Maybe it's like, if you're going to steal something, steal something of value. :D
The comparison I was making is that Diana and Larry did indeed write or
"make up" if you will, the family line story in the screenplay. None of those
"stories" are in the original short story. They might be hinted at, but they are
not there. They made it up, the same as a slash writer makes up their own
stories using the framework of the original. Schamus' hippie scene? Made
up. I wasn't referring to the replacements of various things for film purposes.
Only the idea that before anything is committed to paper, be it a screenplay or
slash story, you have to come up with those story ideas. That is the same.
And not all slash stories make up things inherently different to the original
either as your reply implies.
And Annie Proulx "was" kept out of the loop when they wrote the screenplay.
They sent it to her afterwards, after it was written, for her opinion, and in that
sense she wasn't, but the writing of the screenplay was not something she
was involved in.
Someone above wrote that Annie doesn't want any more of her stories made
into movies. If that is true I say huh? At first she hates the way The Shipping
News turned out. Then a complete opposite reaction to Brokeback Mountain.
Apparently she doesn't like it either way it turns out then.
I just read that article and there's a lot of questions,
none of which we'll probably ever get answers, too, about the BBM paragraph.
Maybe we are all making up stories, so to speak, as to what she really meant.
Obviously she meant more because the final line she wrote says, something
like there's more, but we'll leave it that."
Annie P.: "One of the name traits of the (old) West that I
like is the way pioneer mothers gave their infant boys "girl"
names such as Carol, Helen, Marion and many others."
Maybe they WERE women who sent manuscripts to her, she was assuming
they were men! LOL!
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Lyle,
Although Ossana and McMurthy made up the "hippie scene," it ultimately did not appear in the film, wisely in my opinion. So I'm not sure how it contributes to your point.
To say that by making some small changes, they created an original and distinct work is, of course, nonsense. There is plenty of case law on what constitutes plagarism. Writers, editors, agents and lawyers start sweating when work B, a screenplay say, contains over 20% of the original words, etc. of work A, say a short story. Above that and you're definitely in plagarism territory.
And why would Ossanna and McMurthry pay money for an option to the material if they were going to use one-fifth of it or less? Because they realized were going to be using the core of the work. The screenplay substantially represents and reflects the short story.
Annie Proulx, though not involved in writing the screenplay (after all, that was why she granted the option), did get a chance to comment on it. She pleaded for inclusion of more material from the motel scene, for example. Since the act of writing involves writing and re-writing (60 drafts for BBM), and since AP was offered the chance to provide her opinion, she was involved in the writing process as a critic, the best one the screenwriters could have found.
Quibbling over such small details cannot justify plagarism. It's not simply a matter of legality, but of morality, of whether one can rightly appropriate another's intellectual property without the author's/originator's/owner's consent. Careers, livelihoods and reputations often depend on proper attribution.
As I noted in an earlier post, writing fan fiction in and of itself seems to be a relatively harmless activity. But the further you move private drafts towards publication, e.g., by showing them around to friends or sending them to authors for comments, you are likely to attract criticism over matters such as originality. How does copying the work of another honor that person?
Sandy
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If you're a slash writer, you do what you gotta do, and as long as it's right for you (and doesn't break any laws) you just go on doing what you gotta do. I don't see any controversy.
That is a nice sentiment Ellen and I wish it were so true but you know as well as I that there are a very large bunch of tender souls in this fandom and critique sends many of them scurring to the mountains, and while I have always tried to preach that people shouldn't take critism so hard, should just be able to move past when they don't like what is being said, we have seen massive upheavals in the fandom and that is usually just caused by internal-fandom dynamics, with this extrenal force being now played, I am not sure what will happen to some writers or how they will interpret it...
As I said in the post above, I don't judge AP's right to say what she feels, it was just as you said in your post, it seems one-dimensional, off the cuff, a thought of the moment, and to me really served no purpose and it just seemed to me that she would be above that...oh well... :-\
:) well -- okay then I say let's take her at her literal word.
She complained about straight men who send her pornified BBM fanfic.
How about this -- everybody who has never sent Annie Proulx their fanfic -- consider yourself exempt.
Everyone who writes BBM slash who is not a straight man -- consider yourself exempt.
Carry on. ;D
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not everyone that loves BBM is a gay male
im a straight (i think thats how you spell it) female and i love BBM but i have gone off the writer big
she should be greatful that people like her work
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Ellen, I wish it was that simple, I really do...
But as you say, carry-on! :)
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As I noted in an earlier post, writing fan fiction in and of itself seems to be a relatively harmless activity. But the further you move private drafts towards publication, e.g., by showing them around to friends or sending them to authors for comments, you are likely to attract criticism over matters such as originality. How does copying the work of another honor that person?
I am not sure where that came from but as it was myself who brought up the topic of fanfic as a form of honouring the author and original work, I will make a reply.
Of course if someone copies BBM and even say they change the names of Jack and Ennis to Biff and Todd but keep everything else the same, that would be a form of plagerism, and of course keeping the story intact and maybe tweaking it also would be a form of plagerism, and both don't make a lot of sense to me because there is no expression of interest in the characters and story, it is just tweaking someone else's idea.
But as far as I can see, and I guess I have probably read over 300 pieces of BBM fanfic in total, and if that is lets say a representative sample of the whole fandom, I don't know of one single piece of fanfic that would be considered copying AP's work. Of course many use her characters, their names, the setting, the time period, the same issues and challenges but everyone takes a different view of the story, maybe a canon piece that tries to fill in the blanks of their 20 years together, or Ennis's time alone after, some change the ending and have Jack live and explore the struggles that they might have to go through to get that sweet life, other take the characters and move them to other settings and places, but everyone, IMO, is nothing but to honour the original, to show how it moved people, to further put forward the message that AP tried to present with her OS.
So yes, for me that is honouring the author and her original work.
Just on a small side note, it is very standard practice in fanfic fandoms to source your "inspiration" at the beginning of your story, to credit the OS and it's author, and in this fandom that is pretty much universally done, so again nothing is being done in some sort of covert way.
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not everyone that loves BBM is a gay male
im a straight (i think thats how you spell it) female and i love BBM but i have gone off the writer big
she should be greatful that people like her work
When BBM did not win best picture at the Academy Awards, Annie Proulx wrote a scathing piece about the whole process, and at the end of it, -- wherein she called Crash "Trash."
Most writers wouldn't have the nerve to put what seems like sour grapes out there. I knew people who were aghast that any writer would do that. However, she was telling the truth in relation to that particular situation.
Whether anybody is male or female, straight or gay, is not even relevant. Annie didn't pick on anybody because of orientation or gender. WE know that most who post here are either straight females or gay men, with a few other glbt's and yes even some straight men.
If you are amazed by the story of Brokeback Mountain, I don't think you can examine it without taking the author into consideration. To go "off" her for straightforward comments she made seems to miss the larger picture.
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As any “fanfic” writer must know, conjuring up an original story and plot line is no easy task.
Translating that story to the printed page is even more difficult. The author must structure the story properly, choose the appropriate language, imagery, and metaphors to insure the reader easily understands every element of the story.
Developing a personal style is one of the more difficult and illusive tasks for any author. Many never accomplish this .
Developing fully formed, three dimensional characters is , perhaps, the most difficult challenge faced by any writer. With the exception of a few, niche literary genres, it is imperative that the reader relate to the characters of a story as though they are real flesh and blood animals. Without this, the story, no matter how engrossing, will not impact the reader in any significant or meaningful manner.
“Fanfic” appropriates these carefully wrought characters (many times attempting to duplicate style, imagery, etc.) and then drops them into various scenario’s of their own invention. Often the fanfic author develops plot lines and situations which are totally foreign to the original characters, and, more importantly, allows the characters to act and react in ways that are totally “out of character” for the originals.
While I have said, and continue to say, this is relatively harmless, I can also understand why the original author might not react in a very kind way to a deluge of manuscripts which appropriate characters the author labored so intensely to birth. Especially if those characters are depicted doing things that are totally “out of character” from the originals.
If you are going to be successful as a writer, you must learn to create and fully develop your own characters. I see no reason to disparage the remarks of an author who has mastered this incredibly difficult task.
Quite the opposite, I think she should be applauded for defending her own creations.
As for screenplays.
AP ‘optioned” BBM to Larry and Dianna. It was not just legal, money exchanged hands. The option is just that, an “option”. If it is not executed within a certain time frame, the rights revert to the author and the money stays with the author.
The option allows the screenwriter to then, and only then, begin work on translating the story to the screen with the explicit or implicit "permission " of the source material author.
The option and the final contract may stipulate that the author has the right of final script approval. It may stipulate the source material in question may be “adapted” for the screen, or that the screenplay is to be “based “upon the source material , or that the screenplay is to be “based upon the characters” as created by the author of the source material.
The screenwriter is now free to do whatever he chooses within the parameters of the option agreement as agreed to by the author.
If the script is sold and the option “picked-up” then additional contracts are negotiated with all parties:the producer, the screenwriter AND the author of the source material. ( again based upon the terms of the original option agreement)
Bottom line: nothing is done without the approval and knowledge of the source material author either by prior consent or right of final approval.
(Now many a writer is quite passive /aggressive about this portion of the agreement. Many say, "I am not a screenwriter. It is therefore your job Mr. Screenwriter to make that particular passage work for the screen". THEN they go nuts when they don't like the result).
Finally, a form of “fanfic” is quite common in television. Alan Ball, Aaron Sorkin, and David Kelley have all been fanfic writers of a sort. Television dramas and comedies are often “created” by an individual (or , god forbid, a committee) but the scripts, subsequent to the pilot, are written by others incorporating the characters as originally developed. Many “ aspiring script writers “ submit freelance scripts and sometimes they are optioned. It is difficult to write like this for very long, however, because the “show book” and “show runner” insist that the stories stay true to the personality traits of the original characters.
This is why one often notices that writers such as Ball, Sorkin and Kelley attempt to write most of the scripts for the shows they create.
When they stop, truly bad things can happen.
Anyone remember the demise of “West Wing” once Sorkin left? (many oather factors contributed of course)
The replacement script writers “promoted” the Allison Janey character to “Chief of Staff”, a move so out of character with the original C.J. Craig that the viewer never bought the premise.
This is way too long winded a way of saying, “I don’t understand this newfound animosity toward AP just because she does not necessarily consider fanfic to be a ‘tribute” to her work and that she may actually be annoyed at seeing her carefully developed characters acting and reacting in a manner which is totally foreign to her unique understanding of their nature.
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Sandy, you are really complicating a simple point.
Slash writers make up things.
Some of them are consistent with the storylines of the original.
Some of them are wild, sci-fi, fantasies.
McMurty and Ossana made up the entire stories behind the
scenes of the family life, consistent with hints from the story,
whether or not they were included, like the Schamus hippie scene.
They made up over half of the screenplay by their own admission.
If someone had written a slash story about the family life before
the film was written, it is the same thing. Regardless of the
legalities involved.
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Lyle,
Maybe I'm complicating the matter, but perhaps you could be oversimplifying it. ;)
Even if Ossana and McMurthy made up half (50%) of the story, that would still fall under the category of plagarism if they have not first obtained permission from Proulx in the form of optioning it. This is not a nicety. This is something every writer who is involved in publishing is aware of. On the other hand, as far as I know, it is not conventional for slash writers to seek permission from original authors.
It's no big deal because most slash writers do not plan to publish their work in traditional ways, but do it for their own edification, so it is not likely to attract legal scrutiny. So you can continue to enjoy writing and reading slash.
The good news is that several decades after her death, Proulx's work will pass into the public domain so no one need fear the threat of a lawsuit in, say, 90 years.
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I think it's an ultimate compliment for her that her story spawned its own universe of writing.
It doesn't change the fact that it's was and always will be her creation and I don't see a problem.
People read something, are deeply affected, reflect, play it over in their minds, analyze, speculate and dream about it, and sometimes put these results on paper. End of.
Annie could do with lightening up a bit. I hear that sex or weed can be helpful ;)
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Are you offering? :D
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Are you offering? :D
why not? think of the bragging rights >:D
But on second thoughts maybe better not, I sense that being cranky and pissed off with the world helps Annie's creativity :)
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I don't feel any animosity at all towards Annie Proulx for expressing her views; I can understand why receiving such manuscripts would be distasteful, why she feels frustrated by the lack of understanding those manuscripts represent, in her view, and especially why she would resent the implication that her story and/or characters needed to be fixed in any way. This story, however much it has caused her continuing irritation, is very special to her, and she has shared more about it and her process of writing it than she has for any other piece of her writing. She has every right to be possessive and protective of her work.
If Annie wants to go after folks, she has the protection of copyright law for her intellectual property. She may also have the protection of trademark law. Both kinds of law are meant to protect an author from loss of revenue and from others passing her work off as their own (and profiting, monetarily or otherwise, from doing this.) Fanfic authors routinely provide a disclaimer, acknowledging that neither the story of BBM nor the characters belong to them, stating that they belong to Annie Proulx and stating that no money is being made. ( I've never heard of anyone attacking fanfiction legally as plaigiarism.) This does not, in itself, protect the fanfic author from being tracked down by Scribner's and receiving a C & D letter, being threatened with lawsuit and ordered to take down their work. Publishers usually don't pursue such cases unless the author specifically requests that they do so, however. They know that these works often create interest in the original and lead to more sales. They aggressively protect authors only from loss of revenue and from others claiming her work as their own.
A number of intellectual property lawyers have suggested that fanfic does not violate copyright law, provided it is not marketed, charged for, or misleadingly labeled as the author's own work. They talk about "transformative use": the material has been used in a story that deviates, in important ways, from the original. As long as the work does not cause real or potential monetary damage to the author, or mislead the public, it should be left alone. The exception is a work billed as a sequel or prequel--the author has a right to protect anything that she may intend to write or license rights to. The defense of transformative use has not been tested, because fanfic authors can't afford to take their cases to court in defiance of a C & D and risk being fined up to $100,000, plus court costs.
Annie's reaction is relatively mild. Anne Rice has vehemently pursued fanfic authors and loudly deplores their work. At the other end of the spectrum is J.K. Rowling, who has, in general, told fanfic authors that they are welcome to post their stuff, unless they are posting something that she intends to write or not adding anything original. That's what happened in the Lexicon case: she was intending to publish a Lexicon and the author of the Lexicon had simply used her text to give definitions, without putting it in his own words or adding original materials. He was also intending to charge for it, I believe. The Star Trek and Star Wars folks actually solicit fanfic and get it published (and the authors get paid) though they have the final say on portrayal of the characters (and get a cut of the profits.)
I don't think Annie owes fanfic writers any consideration of their feelings. But I don't think fanfic writers should feel bad about what they do, either, unless they shove their work under her nose or imply that it's just as good as, or better than, the original. Most of them do intend to honor her and write their fics because they were inspired and moved by her story.
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Annie could do with lightening up a bit. I hear that sex or weed can be helpful ;)
*gak*
Gawd! I just choked on my apple! :D :D :D :D :D
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I stopped reading most of the threads on the film and the story many moons ago, because it began to feel obsessive and because one or two threads seemed to be inventing things that to my mind are just not there in the story or the film. Although I maintain an interest in new work on BBM, I don't read fanfic, because as I wrote above, I think the story and the film have their own integrity. I found it more interesting to read Annie Proulx's other work and got involved in the book club thread discussions of her stories and other books.
I must not let this comment pass without thanking you (and the others here - you know who you are) who were in the book club when we read 'Postcards', as well as when Jenny ran the discussion of 'Bad Dirt' and 'Close Range' here. Although I decided to stop being the moderator here I felt that those discussions (as well as related discussions of works like 'The Last Picture Show', 'Dirt Music' and 'The Man Who Fell In Love With The Moon') were very, very worthwhile - and I wouldn't have missed them for the world.
I must admit that in part that of the reason that I quit moderating was due to becoming disillusioned that we were on a site dedicated (in part) to a work by Ms. Proulx and yet the vast majority of people on the forum were not interested in discussing her other written work [and often it seemed as if they were not interested in discussing any other written work published in book form]. I find it perplexing (at the very least) that this thread has only forty-some pages in it and has come to life over this topic, when Ms. Proulx's works have such amazing depth - take the issues of personal guilt and the corrosive effects on the individual and his family in 'Postcards', for example.
Of course it's always nice for me to see new people in the thread - no matter the reason.
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I must admit that in part that of the reason that I quit moderating was due to becoming disillusioned that we were on a site dedicated (in part) to a work by Ms. Proulx and yet the vast majority of people on the forum were not interested in discussing her other written work [and often it seemed as if they were not interested in discussing any other written work published in book form]. I find it perplexing (at the very least) that this thread has only forty-some pages in it and has come to life over this topic, when Ms. Proulx's works have such amazing depth - take the issues of personal guilt and the corrosive effects on the individual and his family in 'Postcards', for example.
Of course it's always nice for me to see new people in the thread - no matter the reason.
I absolutely understand your feelings Michael. For example, my lifelong interest is astronomy and I never understood how come so few people want to know what's out there beyond our planet, what's the big picture. I would have thought it should be the main issue preoccupating our civilisation with appropriate funding and effort put into it. Otherwise we are like a colony of ants living on a leaf, ignoring the size and shape of the plant and forest this leaf is a part of. But yet this is how it works.
My conclusion is not to attach any moral value to this, neither positive or negative, it just is, curiosity is not a given, most people are happy with what they know and tend to limit their interest accordingly. Probably something to do with the principle of inertia and energy conservation ;)
It's nobody's fault, it just is, it's nature and it's human.
Out of thousands and thousands of people who saw BBM only small percentage was compelled to seek more and ended up here. Most that have are happy to concentrate on BBM and its various aspects alone and only a smal percentage will want to explore Annie's other works.
I think it's ok, no need to bear any grudge about it, better get on with these wonderful book club or Annie Proulx threads. Quality not quantity and all that... All that want to, will find these threads sooner or later.
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I don't feel any animosity at all towards Annie Proulx for expressing her views
I agree Jenny, in fact I am much more interested in what she "really" thinks. That's why interviews with her are so informative and interesting.
How can we resent her true feelings?
Even if I were a slash author I would think it is interesting to know what Annie thinks about BBM slash.
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Annie could do with lightening up a bit. I hear that sex or weed can be helpful ;)
*gak*
Gawd! I just choked on my apple! :D :D :D :D :D
Well, we know she sometimes hangs out in bars to do her research -- I don't think we can assume she doesn't have her own ways of relieving stress! ;D
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I stopped reading most of the threads on the film and the story many moons ago, because it began to feel obsessive and because one or two threads seemed to be inventing things that to my mind are just not there in the story or the film. Although I maintain an interest in new work on BBM, I don't read fanfic, because as I wrote above, I think the story and the film have their own integrity. I found it more interesting to read Annie Proulx's other work and got involved in the book club thread discussions of her stories and other books.
I must not let this comment pass without thanking you (and the others here - you know who you are) who were in the book club when we read 'Postcards', as well as when Jenny ran the discussion of 'Bad Dirt' and 'Close Range' here. Although I decided to stop being the moderator here I felt that those discussions (as well as related discussions of works like 'The Last Picture Show', 'Dirt Music' and 'The Man Who Fell In Love With The Moon') were very, very worthwhile - and I wouldn't have missed them for the world.I must admit that in part that of the reason that I quit moderating was due to becoming disillusioned that we were on a site dedicated (in part) to a work by Ms. Proulx and yet the vast majority of people on the forum were not interested in discussing her other written work [and often it seemed as if they were not interested in discussing any other written work published in book form]. I find it perplexing (at the very least) that this thread has only forty-some pages in it and has come to life over this topic, when Ms. Proulx's works have such amazing depth - take the issues of personal guilt and the corrosive effects on the individual and his family in 'Postcards', for example.
I agree with you Michael. Having been involved in all the book club discussions, I found them illuminating and fruitful.
I have hesitated to comment on this thread because, as you say, it has only forty-some pages which have come to life over this topic. It amazes me that so much contention has reared its head here because of Proulx's interview with the WSJ. She has a right to say what she wants about her work -- so she's not pleased with those who send her copies of their fanfics -- she's not please with writers who think they can improve upon her work. OK!! So what? -- It's her work, her creation -- why the hooha? I believe that this forum tends to canonize anyone who has written, acted, directed, or otherwise been involved with BBM, and when they turn out to have feet of clay everyone goes bonkers. I admire Proulx tremendously, especially her forthright candied statements. Remember her essay in the Guardian, "Blood on the Red Carpet"? She said in the last paragraph, and I'm paraphrasing here, "..to those who call this rant sour grapes, play it as it lays." That should be a fitting end to this whole rigmarole, IMO.
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I stopped reading most of the threads on the film and the story many moons ago, because it began to feel obsessive and because one or two threads seemed to be inventing things that to my mind are just not there in the story or the film. Although I maintain an interest in new work on BBM, I don't read fanfic, because as I wrote above, I think the story and the film have their own integrity. I found it more interesting to read Annie Proulx's other work and got involved in the book club thread discussions of her stories and other books.
I must not let this comment pass without thanking you (and the others here - you know who you are) who were in the book club when we read 'Postcards', as well as when Jenny ran the discussion of 'Bad Dirt' and 'Close Range' here. Although I decided to stop being the moderator here I felt that those discussions (as well as related discussions of works like 'The Last Picture Show', 'Dirt Music' and 'The Man Who Fell In Love With The Moon') were very, very worthwhile - and I wouldn't have missed them for the world.
I must admit that in part that of the reason that I quit moderating was due to becoming disillusioned that we were on a site dedicated (in part) to a work by Ms. Proulx and yet the vast majority of people on the forum were not interested in discussing her other written work [and often it seemed as if they were not interested in discussing any other written work published in book form]. I find it perplexing (at the very least) that this thread has only forty-some pages in it and has come to life over this topic, when Ms. Proulx's works have such amazing depth - take the issues of personal guilt and the corrosive effects on the individual and his family in 'Postcards', for example.
Of course it's always nice for me to see new people in the thread - no matter the reason.
Nice post Michael --
One of the surprising things about BBM is that it leapt off the page to reach the popular culture. Annie didn't write it that way but she tapped into a universal theme and the story is of mythic proportions.
But--
I always sort of saw this in the forum, and I understand it even more now, after these pages.
Some people respond by digging deeper into the literary aspects (those of us in the book threads)
Some people respond by working out their obsessions in the fan threads for Jake and Heath.
Some respond with humor (photocaps)
Some respond by writing Slash.
Some respond by self-improvement (diet, quit smoking)
etc.
I understand that not everyone gets their kicks out of reading an author like Annie Proulx. It is definitely an acquired taste (although I found the language in BBM soaring from the moment I picked it up.) Still, when something gets under people's skin in the popular culture, it takes on a life of its own.
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I stopped reading most of the threads on the film and the story many moons ago, because it began to feel obsessive and because one or two threads seemed to be inventing things that to my mind are just not there in the story or the film. Although I maintain an interest in new work on BBM, I don't read fanfic, because as I wrote above, I think the story and the film have their own integrity. I found it more interesting to read Annie Proulx's other work and got involved in the book club thread discussions of her stories and other books.
I must not let this comment pass without thanking you (and the others here - you know who you are) who were in the book club when we read 'Postcards', as well as when Jenny ran the discussion of 'Bad Dirt' and 'Close Range' here. Although I decided to stop being the moderator here I felt that those discussions (as well as related discussions of works like 'The Last Picture Show', 'Dirt Music' and 'The Man Who Fell In Love With The Moon') were very, very worthwhile - and I wouldn't have missed them for the world.
I must admit that in part that of the reason that I quit moderating was due to becoming disillusioned that we were on a site dedicated (in part) to a work by Ms. Proulx and yet the vast majority of people on the forum were not interested in discussing her other written work [and often it seemed as if they were not interested in discussing any other written work published in book form]. I find it perplexing (at the very least) that this thread has only forty-some pages in it and has come to life over this topic, when Ms. Proulx's works have such amazing depth - take the issues of personal guilt and the corrosive effects on the individual and his family in 'Postcards', for example.
Of course it's always nice for me to see new people in the thread - no matter the reason.
It's a pleasure to talk about her other work...yet so hard to beat the literary perfection that is BBM.
I'd love to do a story-by-story discussion about "Just the Way It Is'. I'm not finished with it yet, but it might be a good option for the general book discussion thread, too. Just a thought.
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I don't feel any animosity at all towards Annie Proulx for expressing her views
I agree Jenny, in fact I am much more interested in what she "really" thinks. That's why interviews with her are so informative and interesting.
How can we resent her true feelings?
Even if I were a slash author I would think it is interesting to know what Annie thinks about BBM slash.
Well I agree and disagree I guess...I don't have animosity towards her, it is a free world and people can say what they like, but like I said "how" she said it unfortunately to me shows she didn't think before she spoke (or maybe she did and that to me that makes it worst) because she could have got her point across without having to hurt people in the process. The written tone and intent of the comment was harsh and rude to me and definitely felt self-important. Personally I don't care for that type of comment, I truly believe there are a million ways to get your point across in a way that is less likely to hurt people or affect others opinions in a negative way.
Like I said, I don't hate her in the least but it left a bad taste in my mouth.
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I have hesitated to comment on this thread because, as you say, it has only forty-some pages which have come to life over this topic. It amazes me that so much contention has reared its head here because of Proulx's interview with the WSJ. She has a right to say what she wants about her work -- so she's not pleased with those who send her copies of their fanfics -- she's not please with writers who think they can improve upon her work. OK!! So what? -- It's her work, her creation -- why the hooha? I believe that this forum tends to canonize anyone who has written, acted, directed, or otherwise been involved with BBM, and when they turn out to have feet of clay everyone goes bonkers. I admire Proulx tremendously, especially her forthright candied statements. Remember her essay in the Guardian, "Blood on the Red Carpet"? She said in the last paragraph, and I'm paraphrasing here, "..to those who call this rant sour grapes, play it as it lays." That should be a fitting end to this whole rigmarole, IMO.
But funny thing is that it goes both ways, I have this feeling because it is "Annie Proulx", demi-god of the BBM world she can't do any wrong. Honestly, she was rude in that comment, I am not claiming she didn't tell her true feelings, didn't have a right to do that but HOW she did it was rude and unsensitive in many ways and the in-between the line meanings weren't needed. As I said she has made fanfic writers out to be absolute fuckin' assholes in that comment, and people listen to other people's comments, especially people with "popular culture" standing...
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out to be absolute fuckin' assholes in that comment, and people listen to other people's comments, especially people with "popular culture" standing...
um, she didn't say that, friend.
Why read between the lines? She said what she meant. She didn't say that.
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out to be absolute fuckin' assholes in that comment, and people listen to other people's comments, especially people with "popular culture" standing...
um, she didn't say that, friend.
Why read between the lines? She said what she meant. She didn't say that.
Ellen you can't say that what she said showed "fanfic" writers or fanfic itself in a good light...please you can't really think that. It may have been meant to be very specific to one group, eg."homosexual men who think they're straight and think they can write better stories than her", but for the uninformed who knows nothing about fanfic what do you think they read there.
You make it sound so easy, that fanfic writers should just go on as if nothing has happened, that it is all fine and dandy...many of them do care what AP thinks and she has been pretty direct on what she thinks they do!
Wonder what would have been the reaction if she had attacked lets say someone who wrote music inpsired by the film, that she thought it was taking her "art" and belittling it...the problem here is that fanfic is in the same medium as her art but it doesn't make it any less an art form inspired by the OS...
And maybe I am saying between the lines but it really wasn't that between the lines to be honest!
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But funny thing is that it goes both ways, I have this feeling because it is "Annie Proulx", demi-god of the BBM world she can't do any wrong. Honestly, she was rude in that comment, I am not claiming she didn't tell her true feelings, didn't have a right to do that but HOW she did it was rude and unsensitive in many ways and the in-between the line meanings weren't needed. As I said she has made fanfic writers out to be absolute fuckin' assholes in that comment, and people listen to other people's comments, especially people with "popular culture" standing...
I'll never figure out how so many people work out the notion that any statement can be somehow neutralized by pointing out that the person had a right to say it. It's almost a magical mentality.
All right, free speech is wonderful and any other standard sentiment that people want to hear; but it's a two-way street. She has a right to say what she wants but it would probably be rather unproductive to expect no one to comment with equal bluntness. And the comments aren't likely to get shut down with another quote that supposedly "puts an end" to it.
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Even if I were a slash author I would think it is interesting to know what Annie thinks about BBM slash.
Actually, I'm still stunned to learn that people actually sent fanfics to her claiming they'd "fixed" her story! :o As my Dad used to say, "how are they fixed for spit?"
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But funny thing is that it goes both ways, I have this feeling because it is "Annie Proulx", demi-god of the BBM world she can't do any wrong. Honestly, she was rude in that comment, I am not claiming she didn't tell her true feelings, didn't have a right to do that but HOW she did it was rude and unsensitive in many ways and the in-between the line meanings weren't needed. As I said she has made fanfic writers out to be absolute fuckin' assholes in that comment, and people listen to other people's comments, especially people with "popular culture" standing...
It always amazes me that so many people think that any statement can be somehow neutralized by pointing out that the person had a right to say it. It's almost a magical mentality.
All right, free speech is wonderful and any other standard sentiment that people want to hear; but it's a two-way street. She has a right to say what she wants but it would probably be rather unproductive to expect no one to comment with equal bluntness. And the comments aren't likely to get shut down with another quote that supposedly "puts an end" to it.
*drops to knees and kisses Marge's toes*
Thank You!
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Even if I were a slash author I would think it is interesting to know what Annie thinks about BBM slash.
Actually, I'm still stunned to learn that people actually sent fanfics to her claiming they'd "fixed" her story! :o As my Dad used to say, "how are they fixed for spit?"
I'm actually not even sure that is what happened...to me it wasn't clear. I got the impression she "interpreted" it fixing her story because whatever fanfic she was referring to changed the ending or had Ennis find true happiness after Jack was gone.
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Ellen you can't say that what she said showed "fanfic" writers or fanfic itself in a good light...please you can't really think that. It may have been meant to be very specific to one group, eg."homosexual men who think they're straight and think they can write better stories than her", but for the uninformed who knows nothing about fanfic what do you think they read there.
I'm not that worried about the uninformed. I was recently (about 2 1/2 years ago) among the ranks of people who had never heard of fanfic or slash. I would have been astounded that such a thing exists (as I was when I found out) but I can hardly imagine it without the internet.
I don't think what she says touches on the internet phenomenon at all, although of course she knows about it.
You make it sound so easy, that fanfic writers should just go on as if nothing has happened, that it is all fine and dandy...many of them do care what AP thinks and she has been pretty direct on what she thinks they do!
:) well, if fanfic writers care about what she thinks, then they probably want to know what she really thinks, right?
One time an old boyfriend found my diary and he read it. Later in the day he called me up, furious, about what he read in the diary.
He wanted, essentially, for me to say it wasn't true! But how could I? Would he believe what I said? Or what I had written? :D ;D He wasn't thankful to know the truth, but I was thankful he knew it because when he read my diary, he liberated me!
The truth sets you free!
So back to Annie -- now come on, I would have thought it was pretty obvious to fanfic writers that they are working out their own fantasies and even the fantasies of others, that they are skipping much of the craft of writing (as listed in garyd's post) -- using another author's characters and concept, and that they are doing it despite the fact that it's obvious the author might naturally not condone this use of her material. I mean, you/they know this. What she has said is nothing new, she merely confirmed what you might naturally expect her to think of fanfic.
And if you think about it, it probably does cause an author extra busy work and income because at the very least somebody (the publisher? a lawyer?) has to keep an eye out on whether or not someone might cross the line into plagiarism. That can't be a lot of fun.
And yet -- fanfic is out there, it's not going to go away. It's up to you how you respond. You enjoyed slash before, and all the time Annie Proulx didn't care for it. Today you know for sure she doesn't care for it-- that is the only thing that's different.
Try not to worry about it any more than you used to. Seriously. ;)
Wonder what would have been the reaction if she had attacked lets say someone who wrote music inpsired by the film, that she thought it was taking her "art" and belittling it...the problem here is that fanfic is in the same medium as her art but it doesn't make it any less an art form inspired by the OS...
We'll cross that bridge when we come to it, I guess.
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*drops to knees and kisses Marge's toes*
Thank You!
Choi oi -- I'll mark this day on my calendar! ;D
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I have no facts for this analogy, but I think of Margaret Mitchell after writing Gone with the Wind (which, for what it is, is a magnificent novel). I heard her quoted as saying something like, "I think Scarlett was a better person afterwards, but I don't think she ever got Rhett back." So maybe she was always pummelled by questions on that topic, and I'm sure she got tired of them.
She also got tired of people asking questions about fictional sites, even those that might have been based on actual ones*. Apparently, people pestered her to tell them where Tara "really" was. However, I don't think Peggy Marsh ever cast herself as the angel with the flaming sword, protecting her literary Eden against anyone who might imagine that the principals got back together.
Of course, that might have been because she didn't live long enough to get cranky.
* Tara might have been based on the Powers plantation house near Fayetteville, GA but no one will ever know for sure.
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I wouldn't worry too much about fanfic-unless someone is writing it specifically for Annie Proulx. Then I'd worry. :D I find some fanfics to be truly artistic endeavors, and they are satisfying in interesting ways. In popular culture, powerful works of art always propegate imitation. That's Just The Way It Is.
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Wonder what would have been the reaction if she had attacked lets say someone who wrote music inpsired by the film, that she thought it was taking her "art" and belittling it...the problem here is that fanfic is in the same medium as her art but it doesn't make it any less an art form inspired by the OS...
I've written a few 'improvisations' based on the music from the soundtrack but I wouldn't even think to make them public. And I would never dream of sending them to Gustavo for his opinion.
Shawn Kirchner's album, while inspired by the story, doesn't attempt to change the story line, and his melodies bear little resemblance to the soundtrack. This album can easily stand on it's own merits, and you'd be hard pressed to find any copyright infringement in any of the songs. There is a difference between inspiration and revision.
The only other serious music inspired by the story would be the upcoming opera, and it appears that the required permissions and blessings have been obtained. I'm not a big fan of twelve tone, but i am looking forward to this.
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Today you know for sure she doesn't care for it-- that is the only thing that's different.
My problem here is not with content it is with form...how she said it, not what she said...
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I've written a few 'improvisations' based on the music from the soundtrack but I wouldn't even think to make them public. And I would never dream of sending them to Gustavo for his opinion.
But funny thing is I think some original creators of "art" do like to see how people interpret it, see it and express it themselves. Maybe Gustavo would be honoured to see someone present to him something that his original work inspired. Why does this seem like such a bad thing to most people? I would be honoured myself if I had any talent to create any "art" in the first place and someone was inspired by it - honestly that would thrill me.
To me it just sounds like a bunch of prima donna "artists" seeing it as their work is the one and only true vision...*blech* I say!
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As I said on the Slash Discussion thread, Ted, I agree with you that Annie doesn't "get" fanfic. She's apparently been exposed to a very unrepresentative sample, and it's hard for me to imagine what these folks were thinking when they sent her their manuscripts. Every fanfic writer I know says she would die of shame and embarrassment if Annie ever saw her work, and, no matter how excellent the quality, I've never heard or seen a claim by anyone that their work is of the same literary calibre, or meant as critique. Fanfic isn't meant to be published, except for the entertainment of like-minded folks.
Annie's using the interviewer's question to vent about what she received seems to indicate that she was particularly peeved by it. Her comments will undoubtedly hurt some fanfic writers and perhaps cause some to cease writing, or friendslock their work. The threat of more vigorous efforts to suppress it may cause some to remove work that was publically available or to never post. And it may be that that result is just what Annie hoped for. As you say, she has a right to express her feelings. I agree with you that she could have said the same thing less forcefully, and possibly she would have, had she understood that fanfiction is almost always written by people who have been powerfully affected by the original work and use this way to express and explore their feelings and thoughts. But perhaps not. Writers have to protect their right to payment for their work, and they don't take kindly to anything that might affect that.
There's no doubt in my mind that Annie takes her craft very seriously, and has never wanted to be a pop-culture celebrity. She was happy to publish her work, have it admired by other readers and writers of literary fiction, and pick up her many honors from organizations that recognize beautiful and effective prose. I suspect that much of what comes with her wider fame is a complete shock. And most certainly there would be less fanfic if her story hadn't been made into a powerful movie with two very handsome stars at its center. She didn't know how much fanfic there is, how many sources there are and how many people write and read it ( I mean, can you imagine anyone writing fanfic about any of her other Wyoming stories? It boggles the mind.) Now she knows.
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One UK columnists offers some mollifying words:
Wanting to keep a story alive is not an insult to its creator. It is a tribute. Annie Proulx has inspired these fans to want to keep her story alive. And while they would do much better, to use their creative urges to write their own stories with their own characters, they have been inspired by her to write. I think she should turn a blind eye to the pornish elements, and take it as a compliment that her story has fired so many imaginations.
http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/columnists/david-lister/david-lister-stop-whingeing-about-your-fans-annie-936189.html (http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/columnists/david-lister/david-lister-stop-whingeing-about-your-fans-annie-936189.html)
However, what struck me when I first read Proulx's comments was that folks who were clueless enough to send her their stories probably:
1. never bothered to learn a thing about her first
2. were tone-deaf to her writing, if they'd even read her story
3. sent really, really awful stuff.
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:) well -- okay then I say let's take her at her literal word.
She complained about straight men who send her pornified BBM fanfic.
How about this -- everybody who has never sent Annie Proulx their fanfic -- consider yourself exempt.
Everyone who writes BBM slash who is not a straight man -- consider yourself exempt.
Carry on. ;D
That pretty much sums it up for me - a female fanfic writer.
But hell being completely honest - I wouldn't even be that put out (or surprised) if she had somehow (gawd forbid) run across my fanfic and was critiquing it personally. I really couldn't blame her in the least.
As for her "tainting" the public view of fanfic - everyone (except that small % of the population directly involved) makes fun of fanfic and always has. I've been reading and writing since the early 90's so I know! What it comes down to for me is that I don't really think what Annie said could or did change anyone's opinion of fanfic - it wsa no more than a drop of rain in a thunderstorm.
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True enough on many points Tes, true enough...
But then even if the impact is minimal does that excuse the action?
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I admire Proulx tremendously, especially her forthright candied statements. Remember her essay in the Guardian, "Blood on the Red Carpet"? She said in the last paragraph, and I'm paraphrasing here, "..to those who call this rant sour grapes, play it as it lays." That should be a fitting end to this whole rigmarole, IMO.
I agree with you completely. Anyone who has read many of her interviews would not be surprised by her abruptness. She does not have a sugar coated perspective on life - and it's not surprising when you know about her biography.
Having read her books I'm not surprised at the somewhat cold eye she casts at life - after all, look what happened to Loyal Blood (and his father and mother) in 'Postcards.' And after reading "Man Crawling Out of Trees," it would be hard to think that she has much respect (or concern) for Easterners who have a romantic notion of what the west is about.
Regarding the publicity she got after she won the Pulitzer for 'Shipping News' she said this:
Although your fiction has appeared sporadically in magazines for at least fifteen years, you were thrown into the limelight when The Shipping News (1994) won a Pulitzer Prize -- and in the limelight you have remained. As a diligent writer who seems to be more concerned with her work than the trappings of a literary life, could you talk about the effects of this ceaseless flurry of attention?
It's not good for one's view of human nature, that's for sure. You begin to see, when invitations are coming from festivals and colleges to come read (for an hour for a hefty sum of money), that the institutions are head-hunting for trophy writers. Most don't particularly care about your writing or what you're trying to say. You're there as a human object, one that has won a prize. It gives you a very odd, meat-rack kind of sensation.
In terms of interruption of work it's absolutely devastating -- unless one can say no. At first I couldn't say no and I did a lot of things that I shouldn't have. When you get through with travel and hassle and rushing about and shaking people's hands, that "one hour" usually translates into three days. And if you're working on a piece of writing, once three days are torn out it can be quite difficult getting back to where you were before the interruption came. It is possible to make a living not through writing but through celebrity appearances. Some writers do it. But writing is utterly absorbing for me, and I resent anything that pulls me away from it.
[http://www.theatlantic.com/unbound/factfict/eapint.htm]
And regarding fame she said this:
Has fame made it easier or harder to write?
Penny Ashby, Milton Keynes
"Fame" has made little difference in writing for me. I live in a place where people couldn't care less whether I write or twirl plates on the end of a broomstick for a living. So my life has remained rather normal and quiet, a state that certainly enables a writer to work unhindered and in a focused fashion.
[http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/annie-proulx-you-ask-the-questions-746118.html]
She generally takes the perspective of an author and has very little time for the rest. She's one of those people who doesn't sugar coat what she believes in the least - and I love her for it. I may not always agree, but I don't have any questions in my mind as to what she thinks.
ETA: Corrected the last sentence. I hate it when people buzz around me at work when I'm trying to compose a thought....
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True enough on many points Tes, true enough...
But then even if the impact is minimal does that excuse the action?
She could have been kinder, true, but what fanfic she *has* read - by whatever means - really put her off and that feeling doesn't lend itself to kindness.
Annie has always struck me (and I'm a long time fan going back to The Shipping News") as a pretty god-damned prickly old broad. So to speak. It's one of the things I always liked about her but like anything else it seems to have a downside. ;)
For the more tender souls that write fanfic I wish her reaction could have been "broader" but really, if you're writing merely for fun - then one should just shrug it off. And if you have hopes of being a published author some day - best to grow a thick skin NOW - before you read the brutal (and often unfair) reviews that end up on Amazon.
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She seems very pessimistic to me, but I have always thought that about her and maybe that outlook is what enables her to put so much pathos into her stories.
But saying that doesn't mean I have to agree with her approaches to life...
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For the more tender souls that write fanfic I wish her reaction could have been "broader" but really, if you're writing merely for fun - then one should just shrug it off. And if you have hopes of being a published author some day - best to grow a thick skin NOW - before you read the brutal (and often unfair) reviews that end up on Amazon.
Amen, sister! :D
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Annie has always struck me (and I'm a long time fan going back to The Shipping News") as a pretty god-damned prickly old broad. So to speak. It's one of the things I always liked about her but like anything else it seems to have a downside. ;)
:D :D :D
Actually I find that many of my favorite authors share this in common. And (given those quotes about fame) you can tell that she could care less what people think of her.
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^^^^^
it's refreshing, in a way. :o
Thanks for the interview excerpts, michael.
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She seems very pessimistic to me, but I have always thought that about her and maybe that outlook is what enables her to put so much pathos into her stories.
She's always seemed quite realistic to me. I imagine that growing up on the border of Vermont and scratching out an existence after two divorces has had some effect.
Often the violence in her works seem quite without pathos to me, Ted - in fact it is often cold and clinical - like a force of nature.
Which of her works other than BBM do you like?
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Michael,
I like the way that she refrains from sugar-coating her work, never allos sentimentality to creep. Her first novel is in many ways my favorite because it pulls no punches. She still seems to have the knack, though. Her story "Testimony of the Donkey," the next-to-last in her recent collection "Fine Just the Way it is" has the main character in an iron vise and never lets her out. Pruolx seems to be entirely engrossed in and devoted to the story without caring whether it is emotionally palatable to the reader. It's a necessarily honest approach, and it's hard to see how she could approach her work any other way.
<stopping being a buttinsky>
Sandy
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what's a buttinsky?
Oh, I just got it!
(takes one to know one)
I read "Man crawling out of trees" in the New Yorker, just before I read Brokeback Mountain, now that I think about it. I was impressed enough with it to show it to my husband and we were both sort of -- impressed but also horrified.
THEN, without realizing it was the same author, I decided to get up to speed and read Brokeback Mountain before the Acadamy Awards in 2006.
I later figured out, because of "Wyoming Stories" that it was the same author.
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One thing that Proulx's lack of sentimentality does, I think, is allow for a full range of wit. (I just have a hard time putting wit and sentimentality together.) In reading her recent collection, there were times when she slipped in a wry comment that made me spray my coffee across the pages. It's her way of "softening" the blow without capitulating to a reader's desire to be coddled.
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One thing that Proulx's lack of sentimentality does, I think, is allow for a full range of wit.
EXACTLY!!!! I was just going to post something about that. For example the way that people are dispatched in 'The Hellhole' - hilarious, and yet if you were to think of it very violent. Or the underlying current of violence in 'The Wamsutter wolf' - it's creepy and humorous at the same time.
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Thanks for the interview excerpts, michael.
I love what she says about the ending of 'The Shipping News' - it gives a perspective on her thoughts about happy endings:
You have said that The Shipping News -- a book about a man "large, white, stumbling along, going nowhere" who ultimately finds love and purpose -- was an exercise in "writing a book with a happy ending." A stunning majority of your characters tend to trip from one bad spot to another, ultimately meeting with untimely, accidental, and pitiful ends. In light of what you said, does the happy ending of The Shipping News ring hollow to you, or seem somehow less authentic than your others?
Of course not. In the first place the happy ending is ironic. It is not a happy ending; it only seems so. The happy ending in this particular case, written before the rest of the book, is the absence of pain. That's one hell of a happiness, isn't it? The entire book is set up to make a lack of misery seem like blinding happiness. At the same time, that is what most of us settle for in life -- a situation that may not be ecstatically glorious and joyful but is nonetheless not painful. That definition of happiness is what drives the book. I had a good time writing it because so many people told me my first novel, Postcards, was dark. I said, "You like a happy ending, do you? Well, I'll just give you a happy ending." Life is that way for most of us. I tend to look at the long span of a life, not just episodes, which is one of the reasons I do not attempt the interior novel. I like long pieces of people's lives. When you measure one person's life, say, against the teeming millions and billions that are on earth today, it shrinks in magnitude, quite stunningly. I always place my characters against the idea of mass, whether landscape or a crushing social situation or powerful circumstances.
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I have hesitated to comment on this thread because, as you say, it has only forty-some pages which have come to life over this topic. It amazes me that so much contention has reared its head here because of Proulx's interview with the WSJ. She has a right to say what she wants about her work -- so she's not pleased with those who send her copies of their fanfics -- she's not please with writers who think they can improve upon her work. OK!! So what? -- It's her work, her creation -- why the hooha? I believe that this forum tends to canonize anyone who has written, acted, directed, or otherwise been involved with BBM, and when they turn out to have feet of clay everyone goes bonkers. I admire Proulx tremendously, especially her forthright candied statements. Remember her essay in the Guardian, "Blood on the Red Carpet"? She said in the last paragraph, and I'm paraphrasing here, "..to those who call this rant sour grapes, play it as it lays." That should be a fitting end to this whole rigmarole, IMO.
But funny thing is that it goes both ways, I have this feeling because it is "Annie Proulx", demi-god of the BBM world she can't do any wrong. Honestly, she was rude in that comment, I am not claiming she didn't tell her true feelings, didn't have a right to do that but HOW she did it was rude and unsensitive in many ways and the in-between the line meanings weren't needed. As I said she has made fanfic writers out to be absolute fuckin' assholes in that comment, and people listen to other people's comments, especially people with "popular culture" standing...
See, this is what I mean. Why the contention? I don't think of Proulx as a demi-god, and she certainly can do wrong. However, because she says what she thinks in an interview as it pertains to her work that's her prerogative. What in-between the line meanings? When one tries to read between the lines, one skates on slippery territory IMO. I think that you are overstating the whole fanfic thing. No fanfic writer or slasher should be afraid to write their stories -- I read and enjoy slash here on the forum; it's relaxing and stimulating. I certainly don't equate it with Proulx's work as an artist. Slashers/fanfic writers have no reason to fear anyone's comments; pop culture standing or not. If they are that insecure, they shouldn't write. I don't agree that she made them out to be "absolute funckin' assholes." I think that's your take, and that you're over reacting a wee bit :D
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( I mean, can you imagine anyone writing fanfic about any of her other Wyoming stories? It boggles the mind.) Now she knows.
You mean like "People in Hell Just Want a Drink of Water"? ;) ;) ;)
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You mean like "People in Hell Just Want a Drink of Water"? ;) ;) ;)
"Florida Rental" or "The Old Badger Game", maybe? ;)
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You mean like "People in Hell Just Want a Drink of Water"? ;) ;) ;)
"Florida Rental" or "The Old Badger Game", maybe? ;)
Oh, the possibilities! ;D
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One thing that Proulx's lack of sentimentality does, I think, is allow for a full range of wit.
EXACTLY!!!! I was just going to post something about that. For example the way that people are dispatched in 'The Hellhole' - hilarious, and yet if you were to think of it very violent. Or the underlying current of violence in 'The Wamsutter wolf' - it's creepy and humorous at the same time.
I am not yet sure about the lack of sentimentality. I can't yet shake the impression that her work sometimes masks a very deep sentimental vein. "Them Old Cowboy Songs" is an example. The piece contains the usual irony(which, guys, I truly believe his her real forte) but I sense something else at work. Perhaps it is that she seems to really care about her characters. She has denied this of course. But I sense that is just exactly what it is, denial. I think she cares deeply about the people she writes about and certainly about those she creates. This, of course, is not sentimentality. But it is perhaps a sense of respect and even love.
She certainly pulls no punches in the "Fine the Way It Is" collection. The irony is close to seething. (And of course,she certainly does not love everybody)
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garyd,
When I say sentimentality, I am using it the way the Kurosawa critic Donald Ritchie does, to mean "unearned emotion." I think the emotions she puts in (when she puts them in) are earned. There are dozens of stories (and movies) about animals, for example, that are so saccharine and sentimental, you need a shot of insulin. When I started reading London's "Call of the Wild," I feared that he might go down that easy path, and to my relief (and enjoyment of the book), he did not.
Now, of course, there are some lighter pieces where she doesn't adhere to her stricter, razor-sharp esthetic. I'm thinking right now of the "Satan" stories in "Fine Just the Way it is." It she wants to have fun, it can only be fun for us. And if she wants to vary her style, as she has, it only makes her writing stonger. It's a nod to her craft.
Sandy
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Perhaps it is that she seems to really care about her characters. She has denied this of course. But I sense that is just exactly what it is, denial.
Which she came to realize and admit in an interview about BBM.
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Maybe people are getting sick of the AP WSJ debate but for those not, this link takes you to a great summary of the media coverage of the article and some of the other debates taking place...the one on afterelton is rather interesting to read.
http://community.livejournal.com/fanthropology/449240.html
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garyd,
When I say sentimentality, I am using it the way the Kurosawa critic Donald Ritchie does, to mean "unearned emotion." I think the emotions she puts in (when she puts them in) are earned. There are dozens of stories (and movies) about animals, for example, that are so saccharine and sentimental, you need a shot of insulin. When I started reading London's "Call of the Wild," I feared that he might go down that easy path, and to my relief (and enjoyment of the book), he did not.
Now, of course, there are some lighter pieces where she doesn't adhere to her stricter, razor-sharp esthetic. I'm thinking right now of the "Satan" stories in "Fine Just the Way it is." It she wants to have fun, it can only be fun for us. And if she wants to vary her style, as she has, it only makes her writing stonger. It's a nod to her craft.
Sandy
Yes, well, hmmm.
This was my first response to your post.
It has to do with your invocation of Ritchie.
I decided not to respond but, I do agree with the "unearned emotion" comment and I understood the meaning of your initial post.
AP certainly insures her characters "earn" the emotional attachment and reaction of her audience.
She is no Paul Haggis.
As for Ritchie, I am hesitant since discussions of his work often arise when I am around.
I was a bit startled by you reference to him.
I admire his knowledge of Japanese culture along with his literary credentials and his skills as a literary critic.
I do feel that his high regard by some as a student and critic of the art of film is not warranted.
I enjoy AP's "Satan" stories. I consider them to be welcome sarcastic "riffs".
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{snip}
One final note, and perhaps this belongs elsewhere, but I'm kind of surprised she thinks the lesson of BBM is that you have to stand it if you can't fix it. I took away an entirely different message - that you have to fix it, because to stand it, is to die alone and miserable. Yes, in BBM, neither Jack nor Ennis can fix it. But I don't think we, as readers, are supposed to accept that.
That struck me, too, UV. I resist the notion that there's a univeral message in Brokeback, or a universal spirit of Brokeback, but, personally, I agree that "if you can't fix if, you've got to stand it" isn't one of the messages I got.
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I love what she says about the ending of 'The Shipping News' - it gives a perspective on her thoughts about happy endings:
You have said that The Shipping News -- a book about a man "large, white, stumbling along, going nowhere" who ultimately finds love and purpose -- was an exercise in "writing a book with a happy ending… In light of what you said, does the happy ending of The Shipping News ring hollow to you, or seem somehow less authentic than your others?
Of course not. In the first place the happy ending is ironic. It is not a happy ending; it only seems so. The happy ending in this particular case, written before the rest of the book, is the absence of pain. That's one hell of a happiness, isn't it? The entire book is set up to make a lack of misery seem like blinding happiness. At the same time, that is what most of us settle for in life -- a situation that may not be ecstatically glorious and joyful but is nonetheless not painful. That definition of happiness is what drives the book. I had a good time writing it because so many people told me my first novel, Postcards, was dark. I said, "You like a happy ending, do you? Well, I'll just give you a happy ending." Life is that way for most of us. I tend to look at the long span of a life, not just episodes, which is one of the reasons I do not attempt the interior novel. I like long pieces of people's lives. When you measure one person's life, say, against the teeming millions and billions that are on earth today, it shrinks in magnitude, quite stunningly. I always place my characters against the idea of mass, whether landscape or a crushing social situation or powerful circumstances.
I finished 'The Shipping News' yesterday and I enjoyed it immensely: I found it moving, laugh-out-loud funny, perceptive and atmospheric – and, despite the tragedies and horrors that are touched on, ultimately positive and hopeful. Did I get it wrong? I was certainly surprised to read the above. I mean, it’s AP’s book, and she should know - perhaps it’s her definition of a happy ending? To me the ending of a story is just a blip on the timeline of people’s lives, and a happy ending is placed at a moment when things have worked out, problems have been sorted, or simply that things are going better and there seems to be a way forward. Unless one is feeling hopelessly romantic no-one thinks that fictional, and even less so real lives, are going to be perfect forever, but one is glad to accept that this moment at least is a good one.
By the end of ‘Shipping News’ Quoyle has developed and changed in so many ways, and I was deeply moved in the last chapter when he looks at himself naked in the mirror. “The effect was more of strength than obesity. He guessed he was at some prime physical point. Middle age not too far ahead, but it didn’t frighten him…. Again, a bolt of joy passed through him. For no reason.” He feels more confident, accepted, and we see that too through the eyes of other characters, not just his own. The very end: “Quoyle experienced moments in all colors, uttered brilliancies … he laughed and wept, noticed sunsets, heard music in rain, said I do ….. And it may be that love sometimes occurs without pain or misery.” That says to me that Quoyle is at last capable of happiness and that his life has purpose.
I suppose the last sentence is AP rather grudgingly saying ‘Well, don’t be too sure about that’. And ‘That is what most of us settle for in life – a situation that may not be ecstatically glorious and joyful but is nonetheless not painful’ - well yes, perhaps that’s right, but is it so bad? If you’re feeling pessimistic you would say it was. But isn’t it supposed to be true that most human beings are hardwired for optimism, and that to survive you have to make the most of the better moments? I think for Quoyle to have progressed to absence of pain at this period of his life, with just the odd flash of glory and joy - to me that’s a happy ending. It’s AP’s story and character, but that is how I read it.
How would you see it, Michael, or anyone?
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garyd,
I am not endorsing the whole of Ritchie's scholarship; since I don't know Japanese or his full work, I wouldn't dare. I just remember him saying that phrase in an interview, and it struck a chord with me. I just wanted to provide the source.
Sandy
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Cally, when I originally read "The Shipping News"-which my mother now has possession of, last I heard-I recall feeling a somewhat odd relief about the hero. I thought it was a happy ending, but not sure I thought the hero could ever be completely happy. Too much water under his bridge, and all that. So, I do get what AP is sayng-people do settle. Humans are much more frail than various idealsitic representations would have us believe, I think. Even those of us who are generaly achievers, cannot achieve the perfection of our own minds. (I always like the insight of Plato, by the way..) Maybe athletes come the closest; I know artists tend to rethink and redo, after the finished product, generally speaking.
Perfection seems to be a moving target, and as a result, perhaps happiness is. I do think we are meant to strive. :)
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I love what she says about the ending of 'The Shipping News' - it gives a perspective on her thoughts about happy endings:
You have said that The Shipping News -- a book about a man "large, white, stumbling along, going nowhere" who ultimately finds love and purpose -- was an exercise in "writing a book with a happy ending… In light of what you said, does the happy ending of The Shipping News ring hollow to you, or seem somehow less authentic than your others?
Of course not. In the first place the happy ending is ironic. It is not a happy ending; it only seems so. The happy ending in this particular case, written before the rest of the book, is the absence of pain. That's one hell of a happiness, isn't it? The entire book is set up to make a lack of misery seem like blinding happiness. At the same time, that is what most of us settle for in life -- a situation that may not be ecstatically glorious and joyful but is nonetheless not painful. That definition of happiness is what drives the book. I had a good time writing it because so many people told me my first novel, Postcards, was dark. I said, "You like a happy ending, do you? Well, I'll just give you a happy ending." Life is that way for most of us. I tend to look at the long span of a life, not just episodes, which is one of the reasons I do not attempt the interior novel. I like long pieces of people's lives. When you measure one person's life, say, against the teeming millions and billions that are on earth today, it shrinks in magnitude, quite stunningly. I always place my characters against the idea of mass, whether landscape or a crushing social situation or powerful circumstances.
I suppose the last sentence is AP rather grudgingly saying ‘Well, don’t be too sure about that’.
How would you see it, Michael, or anyone?
You may very well have hit the nail on the head with that thought. (bolded)
I also have a strong feeling that AP answers your question in her statement from the interview.
Quoyle is happy at the end of the book.
Why?
Because he is free of pain. Furthermore, this absence of pain does not mean he is simply numb.
He can truly feel, see, experience.
BUT, AP can't help herself, she seems always to have to play the passive-aggressive.
So, the "but". "Is the happiness justified, earned?"
"Furthermore, dear reader, if one happy man amidst a sea of misery is your idea of a happy ending then here it is.
Knock your socks off. "
If we are to take this AP quote to heart:
When you measure one person's life, say, against the teeming millions and billions that are on earth today, it shrinks in magnitude, quite stunningly. I always place my characters against the idea of mass, whether landscape or a crushing social situation or powerful circumstances.
then I think we are meant to interpret the ending of "The Shipping News" to be ironic.
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garyd,
I am not endorsing the whole of Ritchie's scholarship; since I don't know Japanese or his full work, I wouldn't dare. I just remember him saying that phrase in an interview, and it struck a chord with me. I just wanted to provide the source.
Sandy
I know, I know, forgive me. And it is an excellent source; perfect shorthand for explaining your thought.
Ritchie's "unearned emotional" explanation of sentimentality is probably definitive.
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{snip}
One final note, and perhaps this belongs elsewhere, but I'm kind of surprised she thinks the lesson of BBM is that you have to stand it if you can't fix it. I took away an entirely different message - that you have to fix it, because to stand it, is to die alone and miserable. Yes, in BBM, neither Jack nor Ennis can fix it. But I don't think we, as readers, are supposed to accept that.
That struck me, too, UV. I resist the notion that there's a univeral message in Brokeback, or a universal spirit of Brokeback, but, personally, I agree that "if you can't fix if, you've got to stand it" isn't one of the messages I got.
I've been pondering this statement myself for a few days as I too was perplexed by it. Now I have to wonder that if it is the environment, traditions, background, customs of the West that is at the heart of all her writing is the what in the thing that can't be fixed. In one interview somewhere she mentions what it is like for those who leave WY, those who try to break away from it, and how they find themselves in other places where the air feel "flat" and "dead" to them and how they miss the wind. They are of WY and as harsh as being a part of it is, it can't be "fixed" by picking up and going somewhere new. They don't feel a part of the new place and yet the old place doesn't work for them either. The "it" can't be fixed by staying because the place is just so conservative and so slow to change. So they have to "stand it", the standing being either feeling unrooted or feeling oppressed.
I'm guessing for most of us, we are not tied specifically to a certain place and could happily make a new life in a new place if necessary but, her Jack and her Ennis were of this place and they couldn't simply go someplace new and start fresh. Jack's problems weren't solved by leaving and going to Texas, perhaps this was part of the reason why he kept coming back to LF.
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^^^^
I think she meant that Ennis, specifically, could not fix and so must stand it.
Ennis, in the context of his time and place.
Maybe she means that the story is meant to demonstrate that individuals, up against the "mass" of homophobia, could not break out of its grip, and anyone confronted with the story is meant to see how the characters, despite years of dedication to their secret, could not overcome their surroundings.
For it to change, the "mass" or society would have to change.
Has anyone written that fanfic yet? ;)
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By the end of ‘Shipping News’ Quoyle has developed and changed in so many ways, and I was deeply moved in the last chapter when he looks at himself naked in the mirror. “The effect was more of strength than obesity. He guessed he was at some prime physical point. Middle age not too far ahead, but it didn’t frighten him…. Again, a bolt of joy passed through him. For no reason.” He feels more confident, accepted, and we see that too through the eyes of other characters, not just his own. The very end: “Quoyle experienced moments in all colors, uttered brilliancies … he laughed and wept, noticed sunsets, heard music in rain, said I do ….. And it may be that love sometimes occurs without pain or misery.” That says to me that Quoyle is at last capable of happiness and that his life has purpose.
I suppose the last sentence is AP rather grudgingly saying ‘Well, don’t be too sure about that’. And ‘That is what most of us settle for in life – a situation that may not be ecstatically glorious and joyful but is nonetheless not painful’ - well yes, perhaps that’s right, but is it so bad? If you’re feeling pessimistic you would say it was. But isn’t it supposed to be true that most human beings are hardwired for optimism, and that to survive you have to make the most of the better moments? I think for Quoyle to have progressed to absence of pain at this period of his life, with just the odd flash of glory and joy - to me that’s a happy ending. It’s AP’s story and character, but that is how I read it.
How would you see it, Michael, or anyone?
Well, Cally, I've actually read this same sentiment from Annie before - so I don't think it was something she said simply for this interview.
I haven't re-read 'Shipping News' since hearing that and would probably need to do that in order to give you a very informed reading - but honestly, no, I didn't get the somewhat cynical reading of the book that Annie refers to here. And yes, I did think that Quoyle had made progress in the book - it's been a while, but the subplot about the crazed older relative comes to mind - he actually did make some personal progress there (as did the crazed older relative, now in a home). If you look at that subplot, however, you can see how there could possibly be two readings of the same events as the notion that someone would have their best possible life by living in an assisted care facility does have a certain irony to it.
So it's not hard for me to believe that Annie has that notion firmly in mind when she wrote the book - but I don't think it comes across unless you are aware of it.
On another note, when I was looking for quotes yesterday I was quite surprised to find a quote where she actually praises the movie - as I had read elsewhere that she hated it and thought they had mis-cast Spacey as Quoyle.
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^^^^
I think she meant that Ennis, specifically, could not fix and so must stand it.
Ennis, in the context of his time and place.
Maybe she means that the story is meant to demonstrate that individuals, up against the "mass" of homophobia, could not break out of its grip, and anyone confronted with the story is meant to see how the characters, despite years of dedication to their secret, could not overcome their surroundings.
For it to change, the "mass" or society would have to change.
Has anyone written that fanfic yet? ;)
Ahhhh... that Ennis was unfixable because he was so a part of and bought into the rules of his society? Thus, for Ennis to begin to change he would have to truly break from his society, perhaps because he decides that the "tribe" is wrong.
As for your question of society changing, there are fics where Ennis (and Jack) end up in a new and friendlier location but I don't know of one where somehow WY/the West has undergone some kind of cultural seismic change.
Unrelated to Slash but I read that the South has undergone a signicant change in culture due to the influx of Northerns moving there, the tagline was something about how the advent of air conditioning enabled people who were not born and bred in the South to stand living in the area and how it was the impact of these people that caused a significant change in voting habits, food, cultural entertainment, and civil rights. But short of a some strange dot-com boom in WY happening I'm not sure what would cause a large influx of people to move to WY and make an impact on the society there.
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Annie has always struck me (and I'm a long time fan going back to The Shipping News") as a pretty god-damned prickly old broad. So to speak. It's one of the things I always liked about her but like anything else it seems to have a downside. ;)
I've often heard that about Annie. I have had the pleasure of meeting her in NYC.
Almost a year ago, The New Yorker was hosting a book signing, and Annie Proulx was one of the featured authors. The day before there was also a reading featuring Annie. She read her short story "The Sagebrush Kid", and she answered all questions (including ones regarding Brokeback) very good naturedly.
The next day at the signing, she had the longest line of fans to have their books signed. We noticed one man on line with approximately a dozen copies of the Brokeback Mountain short story. We all just looked at each other, knowing they would end up on Ebay. She graciously signed them all.
When I reached her, she signed my copies of "Bad Dirt" and "Brokeback Mountain" I asked her about "The Sagebrush Kid". The first thing she did was enthusiastically thank me for attending the reading, and then went on to tell me it was from her next collection of shorts, called "Fine Just The Way It Is".
When MaineGirl (Sue) reached her with her books to be signed, she looks Sue in the face and complimented her on her beautiful eyes.
Here is a group shot of us after Annie signed all our books! If you look carefully, you can see her in the background, signing someone else's. Thanks to Meryl, who spotted this shot.
(https://ultimatebrokebackforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi215.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fcc93%2Fmusical1_photoalbum%2FColumbusDayWeekendGatheringSuesp-4.jpg&hash=75cc28e363f23e2216d643f8b5a7d8df4d022387)
(L to R) Meryl, Teresa, DejaVu (Debbie), CellarDweller (Chuck), MaineGirl (Sue), Dal (Steve), JMMGalagher (John).
*Picture from MaineGirl's collection*
"Fine Just The Way It Is" is out in stores now. I haven't had the chance to read it yet, but I got my copy.
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I think she meant that Ennis, specifically, could not fix and so must stand it.
Ennis, in the context of his time and place.
Maybe she means that the story is meant to demonstrate that individuals, up against the "mass" of homophobia, could not break out of its grip, and anyone confronted with the story is meant to see how the characters, despite years of dedication to their secret, could not overcome their surroundings.
Ahhhh... that Ennis was unfixable because he was so a part of and bought into the rules of his society? Thus, for Ennis to begin to change he would have to truly break from his society, perhaps because he decides that the "tribe" is wrong.
I think you're onto something here - but I wouldn't put it in the narrow context of homophobia. Annie often writes about people being caught in the grip of forces which shape their lives (for better or worse) - and they are unable to have any significant effect on them. In 'Shipping News' it is the corporate fisheries that have stripped the Ocean of the fish on the shoreline of Newfoundland. In many of her western stories encroaching land speculators have ruined the life of the rural farmer or rancher. In 'Postcards' rural electrification directly effects one of the minor characters lives so that he winds up being in rural New England (and hating it) and develops a drug addiction.
I think that Annie has the perspective that often people cannot have an effect on the large overarching issues which impact their lives. She seems to suggest that in these situations that perhaps the best thing that the individual can do is to reach some sort of accommodation with these forces - for better or worse. I don't think she's suggesting that people just give up - but I do think that she's saying that sometimes when you fixate on the problems they seem worse and can drive you crazy (the incident in 'Postcards' leads me to that sort of thought).
Annie also has a tendency to make sport of some of the attempts that her characters to 'fix' their lives. In 'Men Crawling Out of Trees' the characters have a naive notion of the west - that if they move there from New York that it will have an idyllic effect on their lives - that they will be living in paradise. Instead it has a corrosive effect on the central relationship in the story. In 'Postcards' Loyal Blood becomes the victim of a fast food restaurant that causes one of the few places that he has settled in to burn. Now I don't think that this is some deus ex machina of Annie's to make her characters lives miserable - but I do think that she believes that humans don't always have the ability to see themselves in the context of their worlds and to be able to make intelligent decisions. It's in part the old 'man plans, god laughs' notion. Even when things turn out for the best (as with the old relative in "Shipping News" who bitterly resists giving up his hovel only to find that he loves living in an assisted living facility) the person in question was unable to see beyond their own personal circumstances.
So I think that she often feels that humans are unable to 'fix' the circumstances of their lives - whether it be rural homophobia, corporate greed, or technological advances - and that often the best thing you can do is to 'stand it' till you know what you are dealing with. When discussing her work in this context I think it's important to remember that she was trained in the Annales school of writing and uses a perspective which employs historical patterns in the lives of her characters.
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great post michael --
I'm sure glad I read "On Brokeback Mountain" by Eric Patterson (the professor) or I would be biting my nails right now.
But Annales is just as you described. :D
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Thanks Ellen.
Do you remember if she killed Loyal Blood's dog in that fire in 'Postcards?' I was thinking about that after my post. That Annie! If you're not dying in a mine you're having your house burnt down because of the MacDonalds and tumbleweeds!
[As I recall that dog was one of the loves of Loyal Blood's (hideous) life. After reading 'Postcards' I remember thinking: 'Oh! So Ennis is actually one of the fortunate people in Annie's universe.]
I may have to read 'Postcards' again - my memories of it are kind of phantasmagoric.
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great post michael --
I'm sure glad I read "On Brokeback Mountain" by Eric Patterson (the professor) or I would be biting my nails right now.
But Annales is just as you described. :D
I could not make it through Patterson but the Annales association is fairly well known. It is in most of her bios and she mentions it in interviews. I just wonder how she became involved. American historians and educators never really embraced the system so I doubt it was at U of Vermont. Most likely during grad work at Concordia?
Does Patterson's book shine any light on this?
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{snip}
One final note, and perhaps this belongs elsewhere, but I'm kind of surprised she thinks the lesson of BBM is that you have to stand it if you can't fix it. I took away an entirely different message - that you have to fix it, because to stand it, is to die alone and miserable. Yes, in BBM, neither Jack nor Ennis can fix it. But I don't think we, as readers, are supposed to accept that.
That struck me, too, UV. I resist the notion that there's a univeral message in Brokeback, or a universal spirit of Brokeback, but, personally, I agree that "if you can't fix if, you've got to stand it" isn't one of the messages I got.
I don't think Annie Proulx is necessarily in the business of writing stories with a message for the reader. She's not a moralist, nor is she a social activist. From reading her statements in interviews, I understand that she's interested in writing about the effect of the environment, climate and changes in the economy and society on people's lives, factors that are beyond the control of the individual. BBM is part of the series of three books of short stories in which she examines the effect of these factors on the culture and thinking of the inhabitants of Wyoming at various times in its history. Her approach to fiction is very much informed by her training as a historian of the Annales school.
BBM is built on the theme of the destructiveness of rural homophobia. Ennis's notion that if you can't fix it, you gotta stand it, is his response to what happens to him and Jack as poor, uneducated men as the result of the homophobia of rural Wyoming and their consequent internal homophobia. We could perhaps see similar attitudes to their various predicaments in some of the others among Annie Proulx's Wyoming characters who can't fix whatever their problems are.
The effects of rural homophobia are what Annie Proulx shows us in BBM. I don't think she advocates a particular attitude or course of action that readers should take in our own personal lives or on a public political level. I think she leaves that to us as readers to work out.
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{snip}
One final note, and perhaps this belongs elsewhere, but I'm kind of surprised she thinks the lesson of BBM is that you have to stand it if you can't fix it. I took away an entirely different message - that you have to fix it, because to stand it, is to die alone and miserable. Yes, in BBM, neither Jack nor Ennis can fix it. But I don't think we, as readers, are supposed to accept that.
That struck me, too, UV. I resist the notion that there's a univeral message in Brokeback, or a universal spirit of Brokeback, but, personally, I agree that "if you can't fix if, you've got to stand it" isn't one of the messages I got.
I don't think Annie Proulx is necessarily in the business of writing stories with a message for the reader. She's not a moralist, nor is she a social activist. From reading her statements in interviews, I understand that she's interested in writing about the effect of the environment, climate and changes in the economy and society on people's lives, factors that are beyond the control of the individual. BBM is part of the series of three books of short stories in which she examines the effect of these factors on the culture and thinking of the inhabitants of Wyoming at various times in its history. Her approach to fiction is very much informed by her training as a historian of the Annales school.
BBM is built on the theme of the destructiveness of rural homophobia. Ennis's notion that if you can't fix it, you gotta stand it, is his response to what happens to him and Jack as poor, uneducated men as the result of the homophobia of rural Wyoming and their consequent internal homophobia. We could perhaps see similar attitudes to their various predicaments in some of the others among Annie Proulx's Wyoming characters who can't fix whatever their problems are.
The effects of rural homophobia are what Annie Proulx shows us in BBM. I don't think she advocates a particular attitude or course of action that readers should take in our own personal lives or on a public political level. I think she leaves that to us as readers to work out.
Sorry for being repetitious. I wrote this post after reading Meli's response to UV and before seeing the responses from Michael, Ellen and garyd.
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I could not make it through Patterson but the Annales association is fairly well known. It is in most of her bios and she mentions it in interviews. I just wonder how she became involved. American historians and educators never really embraced the system so I doubt it was at U of Vermont. Most likely during grad work at Concordia?
Does Patterson's book shine any light on this?
[/quote]
Didn't she study in Canada?
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Concordia is in Montreal (and Annie is of French-Canadian descent.) I am sure the curriculum there was much influenced by French historians, and I presume that's how she got into the Annales approach. She never completed her Ph.D., but she was studying history.
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A few thoughts/questions about Annie and 'standing it':
1.) Do you think she's fatalistic - do you think she believes the bad things that happen in life (and to her characters) are bound to happen?
2.) Do you think her characters find validation in 'standing it'? Is it the best that we/they can hope for?
I was wondering about this on the way to work today and thought I'd ask what her readers think....
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Thanks for the response to my 'Shipping News' post. At the moment I think I'm feeling almost resentful that AP has to some extent manipulated my responses and emotions, so probably am not in a fit state to continue rational discussion, but I'll get over it. :)
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It helps to understand the time and place that she was writing from - this was after her first major success ('Postcards') and she was a bit peeved that everyone was telling her how dour the book was - when from her perspective it was just realistic.
Here's a bit of a bio that fills in some of the gaps and might explain her perspective:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/arts/main.jhtml?xml=/arts/2004/12/15/boproulx14.xml&page=3
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i think its a compliment that peoplr would to write there own versions of her work it shows how much they like it and how much impact her work has made of them
comments like that aren't going to do her any favours or get her any more fans
on and didn't subject on the heath ledger:true hollywood story she says she thinks that heath should change his last name to legend (at one of the BBM primeres) i just cringed!!!!!
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A few thoughts/questions about Annie and 'standing it':1.) Do you think she's fatalistic - do you think she believes the bad things that happen in life (and to her characters) are bound to happen?2.) Do you think her characters find validation in 'standing it'? Is it the best that we/they can hope for?I was wondering about this on the way to work today and thought I'd ask what her readers think....
Michael, thanks for the link.
I think Annie is more realistic than fatalistic. The characters in her hard scrabble stories of the economiically depressed West have nothing to look forward to, no matter how hard they strive for better lives -- in many cases there is no future for them, and, yes, it is the best they can hope for. Most people in her depressed socio-economic stories can't change their lives, so they do have to stand it. Her stark desciptions of western lives mirror her interest in western life post WWII. I've noticed the areas in which many of these stories are set are filled with bleakness and despair; it's realism to the nth degree.
Referring to no. 2, I think it is the best they/we can hope for. If her characters are not validated by 'standing it,' they are certainly defined by it.
One of the reasons why I enjoy Proulx's work is because so much of it is bleak and filled with despair. I don't particularly like happy endings without some justification -- I think realism is more to the point. It engages a reader or, at least, this reader because it is so true to life. Her writing has a minimalistic quality that strikes straight to the gut -- she doesn't dress up her writing with a lot of existenialistic mumbo jumbo. It's hard hitting and powerful, and she allows the reader to make their own judgments. I don't feel manipulated, but rather forced to think about how and why people in her stories do what they do. Sometimes her interviews read like a character from one of her stories: direct, curt, tough as leather!
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I think Annie is more realistic than fatalistic. The characters in her hard scrabble stories of the economiically depressed West have nothing to look forward to, no matter how hard they strive for better lives -- in many cases there is no future for them, and, yes, it is the best they can hope for. Most people in her depressed socio-economic stories can't change their lives, so they do have to stand it. Her stark desciptions of western lives mirror her interest in western life post WWII. I've noticed the areas in which many of these stories are set are filled with bleakness and despair; it's realism to the nth degree.
Thanks for the response. Of course I ponder this a bit because I did 'fix it' as far as my life went - I familiarized myself with the burgeoning gay movement in the 70s, made friends and ultimately moved to San Francisco. As the last child (of 9) of parents living on Social Security at the time I grew up I feel as if I understand the hardscrabble aspects. I suppose education modifies ones circumstances (and this is certainly true of Annie - it's her mind that got her published and out of Vermont). So for me I do wonder a bit that the people in her novels never seem to seek out help - although 'Men Crawling Out of Trees' speaks to her belief that in rural environments people help themselves out of fatal and near fatal circumstances.
I also kind of wonder how she views her own life in this context - because she certainly did take the bull by the horns several times in her life - he divorced 3 times and wrote non-fiction to get by before she was a successful author. Certainly she 'fixed it' - but I suppose that there was a lot of 'standing it' in the meantime.
I'm by no means 'new age' about these things - I don't believe you wish it and make it so. But I do think that with education (and perhaps therapy) that ones life can be a whole lot better. So for me I'm still left with the fatalism vs. realism debate about Annie's work.
Certainly her perspective on things makes for a fascinating read. And perhaps that is (more than) enough to hope for in an author.
This conversation about her has whet my appetite and I'm thinking I may want to read 'Accordion Crimes' next.
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I think Annie is more realistic than fatalistic. The characters in her hard scrabble stories of the economiically depressed West have nothing to look forward to, no matter how hard they strive for better lives -- in many cases there is no future for them, and, yes, it is the best they can hope for. Most people in her depressed socio-economic stories can't change their lives, so they do have to stand it. Her stark desciptions of western lives mirror her interest in western life post WWII. I've noticed the areas in which many of these stories are set are filled with bleakness and despair; it's realism to the nth degree.
Thanks for the response. Of course I ponder this a bit because I did 'fix it' as far as my life went - I familiarized myself with the burgeoning gay movement in the 70s, made friends and ultimately moved to San Francisco. As the last child (of 9) of parents living on Social Security at the time I grew up I feel as if I understand the hardscrabble aspects. I suppose education modifies ones circumstances (and this is certainly true of Annie - it's her mind that got her published and out of Vermont). So for me I do wonder a bit that the people in her novels never seem to seek out help - although 'Men Crawling Out of Trees' speaks to her belief that in rural environments people help themselves out of fatal and near fatal circumstances.I also kind of wonder how she views her own life in this context - because she certainly did take the bull by the horns several times in her life - he divorced 3 times and wrote non-fiction to get by before she was a successful author. Certainly she 'fixed it' - but I suppose that there was a lot of 'standing it' in the meantime.I'm by no means 'new age' about these things - I don't believe you wish it and make it so. But I do think that with education (and perhaps therapy) that ones life can be a whole lot better. So for me I'm still left with the fatalism vs. realism debate about Annie's work.Certainly her perspective on things makes for a fascinating read. And perhaps that is (more than) enough to hope for in an author.This conversation about her has whet my appetite and I'm thinking I may want to read 'Accordion Crimes' next.
Yes, Michael, you did fix it, but you had a college education which gave you a bigger head start than say Jack and Ennis. Annie, also had an education, which was how she was able to make a living - even minimal - by writing. I don't believe in fate. I think people can turn things around, and you can fix if you don't want to stand it, but there is a certain amount of grit involved -- you and Annie seemed to have it!!
I started 'Accordian Crimes' when it came out. I found it hard going and was really disappointed, so I put it back on my 'Annie Shelf' until I run out of books. Fat chance! I would love to hear your take on it.
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In a 2005 interview Jas Shamus said, of himself and Ang Lee: "“We really wanted to make a big, gooey, epic love story,” he said. “The fact that it’s hot, man-on-man action is a slight twist, but essentially it’s very conservative.”
In another early interview, cant find which, he said they wanted to take a classic straight love story and "queer it" -
Isnt this the definition of "slash"? At least, originally?
Im pretty much in agreement with Tony, Nikki, Michael etc of the Wyoming Stories grand old book study group -
Not being a reader of slash dont have too much to add to this interesting conversation rather than mention that even living in the northeast, among a fairly literate crowd, and internet savy, those to whom Ive mentioned and described slash have been totally innocent of this genre.
No more, eh?
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Yes, Michael, you did fix it, but you had a college education which gave you a bigger head start than say Jack and Ennis. Annie, also had an education, which was how she was able to make a living - even minimal - by writing. I don't believe in fate. I think people can turn things around, and you can fix if you don't want to stand it, but there is a certain amount of grit involved -- you and Annie seemed to have it!!
I started 'Accordian Crimes' when it came out. I found it hard going and was really disappointed, so I put it back on my 'Annie Shelf' until I run out of books. Fat chance! I would love to hear your take on it.
Whoa! Nice compliment. I think you just made my day!
I do understand what you mean about fate. I certainly don't believe that things are predetermined, and I don't think Annie does either. I suppose realism is a much better way to refer to it. I don't think Annie believes that the die is cast, but I do think she doesn't think it is easy to change things. Although if you think of the neighbor lady (and her eventual partner) in 'Wamsutter Wolf' or the astronomer's wife in 'Postcards' it seems if you have enough will you can bend things in your direction.
If I read 'Accordian Crimes' I be sure to post here.
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Michael,
Two very interesting questions you pose. I think that she is taking a Stoic's attitude toward human suffering. The catch is that she doesn't feel compelled to sugarcoat it and draw philospophical doctrines out of that attitude. I also think that the classic Stoics were dealing with the uppermost layer of society, not with the lower ones that she explores in her stories. Marcus Aurelius could afford to be a Stoic with all the resources at his disposal, but Annie's characters can't even imagine that luxury. I don't see her appealing the religion to explain this suffering. It is possible that she might feel that situations of suffering might create opportunities for her art, but that is a very shaky limb to climb out on. It is clear that derives pleasure from making the stories, and probably believes her readers will derive some pleasure as well.
Sandy
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I think Annie Proulx writes from the point of view of a very hard-nosed realist that is informed by her study of history. As to how much it is influenced by her own life history, we don't know enough to judge. She has made it clear that she looks at the very big picture of people being subject to factors that are beyond individual control - environment (natural and social), climate, the economy, history and historical change, socioeconomic class. At times, her viewpoint becomes positively geological as we see in some chapters of Postcards and some of her Wyoming stories.
Some of her characters just have to stand it, some try to fix it, often with disastrous results, others like Ottoline do better. Some of her characters who are successful financially are thoughtless and insensitive or cruel and ruthless destroyers of the environment and other people including their families. Many of her characters are deluded because of their personalities, or ignorance, or lack of education or by the culture they have grown up in.
I think she implicitly challenges the idea that the US provides opportunity for all if you work hard, that all you need is political and economic freedom, that everybody can just pick up and move somewhere else and re-invent themselves when things go wrong or are merely unsatisfying.
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i think its a compliment that peoplr would to write there own versions of her work it shows how much they like it and how much impact her work has made of them
comments like that aren't going to do her any favours or get her any more fans
on and didn't subject on the heath ledger:true hollywood story she says she thinks that heath should change his last name to legend (at one of the BBM primeres) i just cringed!!!!!
Marz, I don't think Annie Proulx wants fans, but rather people who read her work intelligently and come to an understanding of her themes. Look at her comments on what she hoped for her children in the interview to which Michael posted a link a few posts back.
We have the testimony of our forum members who have met her at book signings on how warm and charming she was to them.
I imagine her recommendation that Heath change his name to Legend was a just compliment with some humour. I think she said that he understood Ennis better than she did herself. She recognized him from his performance in BBM as a serious, intelligent actor, not just a Hollywood celebrity.
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yeah but it was so cheesy!!
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^^^^
the joke was cheesy?
It doesn't strike me that way -- but all humor is subjective I guess. It either works for you or it doesn't.
But it almost doesn't even strike me as a joke. She was truly awed by his performance and she was expressing that.
Anyway, I'm glad I made the journey to see her speak two years ago at a book fair in Casper, Wyoming. In person she is as gracious as Chuck described, and her remarks were insightful and showed a true depth of intellect.
As to whether she "manipulates" our response to her characters -- even that amazes me. Not only does she play god by inventing the story (which all novelists do) but she also has the awareness of a second-tier understanding -- the "happy ending" in Shipping News is only relative to the awful things that MIGHT have happened. (This book is on my list to read soon, so I don't know specifically.)
With Brokeback she got caught in her own web, by creating characters that seemed real even to herself. And she is still surprised that the story strikes a deep chord in so many people that it has made her famous. Maybe she's ticked off that this is one thing out of her control.
If she can't fix it, she has to stand it. :D
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I think Annie Proulx writes from the point of view of a very hard-nosed realist that is informed by her study of history. As to how much it is influenced by her own life history, we don't know enough to judge. She has made it clear that she looks at the very big picture of people being subject to factors that are beyond individual control - environment (natural and social), climate, the economy, history and historical change, socioeconomic class. At times, her viewpoint becomes positively geological as we see in some chapters of Postcards and some of her Wyoming stories.
Some of her characters just have to stand it, some try to fix it, often with disastrous results, others like Ottoline do better. Some of her characters who are successful financially are thoughtless and insensitive or cruel and ruthless destroyers of the environment and other people including their families. Many of her characters are deluded because of their personalities, or ignorance, or lack of education or by the culture they have grown up in.
I think she implicitly challenges the idea that the US provides opportunity for all if you work hard, that all you need is political and economic freedom, that everybody can just pick up and move somewhere else and re-invent themselves when things go wrong or are merely unsatisfying.
Right --
Thinking about Postcards, didn't Dub make out okay? Loyal's little brother with the one arm (didn't he lose his arm in the army?)
While Dub stayed on the farm to help his father keep the place running, the family was in a downward spiral. But when Dub got a little bit of money, instead of doing the predictable thing and blowing it, he took a chance on a new career, Real Estate in Florida, and did pretty well for himself.
I don't recall any terrible retribution for this, unless I have managed to block it out.
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Thinking about Postcards, didn't Dub make out okay? Loyal's little brother with the one arm (didn't he lose his arm in the army?)
While Dub stayed on the farm to help his father keep the place running, the family was in a downward spiral. But when Dub got a little bit of money, instead of doing the predictable thing and blowing it, he took a chance on a new career, Real Estate in Florida, and did pretty well for himself.
I don't recall any terrible retribution for this, unless I have managed to block it out.
thinking about
Well, he managed to make out well by the end of the book, it's true. But he did have that wife who was something of an accident waiting to happen, IMHO. Dub wound up in Texas as I recall (quick note, no one in the book called him Dubya) and didn't seem too happy about it.
It's certainly true that he wound up in no where near as dire circumstances as his brother or father. But I think he may typify that 'happiness is the absence of sadness' notion that Annie refers to in 'The Shipping News.' [Which, by the way, is a great read, Ellen.]
Actually, now that I think about it, Annie's novels and short stories often have people who kind of 'dodge the bullet' - the guy in 'Wamsutter Wolf', for example. He isn't blissfully happy by the end of the story - but at least he isn't 'tits up in a ditch' :D
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Re the French Annales school --
garyd, if you have the book On Brokeback Mountain, it's discussed on page 77 (via the index)
"As Annie Proulx has explained in interviews, her interest in history, particularly in the methods of the French Annales school 'which pioneered minute examination of the lives of ordinary people through account books, wills, marriage and death records, farming and crafts techniques, the development of technologies' - has helped to inspire her approach to writing fiction..."
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Ellen or Gary - is there any info in the book on the Annales school vs. Marxism? I was wondering about that a bit when I was reading about the school - it seemed like it could easily lend itself to marxist interpretations, and yet the things that I have read about it seem to indicate they are anti-marxist.
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~ Loyal's little brother with the one arm (didn't he lose his arm in the army?) ~
He was on a train, on another mission to collect dirt. During a discussion with the bulls they accidentally threw him off, except for his arm.
I think Loyal's dog finally leaped out a high window of the burning house. Or maybe that was just my wishful thinking?
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Ellen or Gary - is there any info in the book on the Annales school vs. Marxism? I was wondering about that a bit when I was reading about the school - it seemed like it could easily lend itself to marxist interpretations, and yet the things that I have read about it seem to indicate they are anti-marxist.
I don't remember anything like that being mentioned, and no mention of marx or -ism in the index
although in the bibleography we have a Leo Marx, author of "The Machine in the Garden: Technology and the Pastoral Ideal in America"
That Eric Patterson was very thorough!
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~ Loyal's little brother with the one arm (didn't he lose his arm in the army?) ~
He was on a train, on another mission to collect dirt. During a discussion with the bulls they accidentally threw him off, except for his arm.
I have been reading David Sedaris's "Barrel Fever" all afternoon, so the above statement doesn't seem as much of a non sequitur as it would have otherwise.
I do remember now that it was a train accident. The rest of the sentence rings not one bell.
I think Loyal's dog finally leaped out a high window of the burning house. Or maybe that was just my wishful thinking?
:D I don't remember why the dog was annoying, but this sounds right.
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I have been reading David Sedaris's "Barrel Fever" all afternoon, so the above statement doesn't seem as much of a non sequitur as it would have otherwise.
Well I never! :D Dub sent his Mom a box of red Oklahoma dirt (best I can recall), from his travels on the rails. The bulls (railroad companies' private security goons) actually threw Dub off the moving train -- I can't remember if it's mentioned in passing, or clearly implied, but his fall was no accident. Although it was his fault nonetheless, having put himself in harm's way, leaving the farm just to see a bunch of funny-looking dirt.
Did the dog annoy you? I was rooting for her! The only living thing who would not judge Loyal.
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The dog leaned a lot didn't she? Or was that the house? ;D I remember the leaning; and the wind. ;)
it drove them all mad.
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i saw some of annies other books today, has anybody read any of them? are they any good?
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Marz, they are brilliant but they are not an easy read. They annoy the hell out of some people. That Old Ace In The Hole is a straightforward one to begin with, or you could try the short story collections.
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ok thanks, i will try to short story collections and tell you what i think
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Marz, if you look up the archived Book Club threads, you will find discussions of the Close Range and Bad Dirt stories and the novel Postcards.
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it drove them all mad.
As mad as them institutionalized Indiands whose faces (carelessly tossed into a cigar box) Loyal studied at the little store. I guess the braves went nuts because they no longer had a place in the world. Is that why Loyal was so interested in them, i.e. he sensed a similarity?
Loyal's car radio, the fragments of songs and voices -- reminds me of Ottaline's scanner.
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Your post reminds me of Ottaline's scanner. :D
You either have a photographic memory or else your copy of Postcards is next to you at all times of the day and night.
Mine, alas, was returned to the public library last year. :-\
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Marz, if you look up the archived Book Club threads, you will find discussions of the Close Range and Bad Dirt stories and the novel Postcards.
thanks for the info, i will do
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Joyce Carol Oates reviews Annie Proux's latest book in the October 23 edition of the New York Review of Books. She also writes about Annie's previous Wyoming books and adds:
With the publication of this new collection of Wyoming stories of which the most famous -- and the masterwork -- is the long, lyric, tenderly erotic "Brokeback Mountain"...
Later in the review there is this statement:
"Tits Up in a Ditch"... is the final story of Fine Just the Way It Is and the most ambitious and sympathetic... the forty-two-page story is an extended elegy reminiscent of "Brokeback Mountain" in the bleakness of its characters' lives and the implacable nature of their losses, including those losses of which they are scarcely aware.
Here is a link to the review:
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/21970
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^^^^^^
Thanx!!
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What a nice thing; A review of BBM I'd never read...I still haven't finished "Just the Way It Is", so I'll forebear to read the rest of the review.
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A lot of people came down hard on Annie Proulx because she expressed disdain for fanfic that had been sent to her. Me, I thought she was entitled, especially since it sounded like she'd got some of the worst.
I thought, though, there was a particular reason for her indignation. I couldn't find the quote on my computer, and I couldn't find her website, either. However, Wikipedia came through with the information:
About the story's main characters, Ennis Del Mar and Jack Twist, Proulx said they affected her long after the story was published, and the film version rekindled her feelings for them — an attachment that she had previously rejected. In an interview in the Missouri Review[6], Proulx called the notion of falling in love with fictional characters "repugnant," but in a note on her website[3] she reconsidered her earlier assertion:
"There is one lie in [the Missouri Review] interview where I said I had never fallen in love with any of my characters. I think I did fall in love with both Jack and Ennis, or some other strong feeling of connection which has persisted for the eight years since the story was written."
I suspect that's why she cared so much.
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I think I did fall in love with both Jack and Ennis, or some other strong feeling of connection which has persisted for the eight years since the story was written."
I suspect that's why she cared so much.
I'm absolutely sure you're right. I think when you create something as emotionally powerful as this, you leave part of yourself behind and that bond doesn't go away. In some ways, it's like being a parent.
Recently someone took a painting of mine from the web, reworked it and reposted it. I was amazed by the wave of sheer anger which I experienced! My work had been tampered with, altered and distorted in a way I hated. It felt like a personal violation.
So, in a small way, I can understand why she reacted as she did.
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Sharing article:)
http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/front/la-et-proulx18-2008oct18,0,4292227.story
HAD ENOUGH’: Pulitzer-winning writer Annie Proulx’s Wyoming-based story “Brokeback Mountain” was made into a movie. The story, says Proulx, “was about homophobia in a place.” And Wyoming, she says, is a place she’s ready to leave.
The 'Brokeback Mountain' author has 'had enough' of Wyoming, her prime subject for the last decade.
By Susan Salter Reynolds, Los Angeles Times Staff Writer
October 18, 2008
Saratoga, Wyo.
On bridge street, few shopkeepers know the name Annie Proulx. But they sure know the title of her most famous short story, "Brokeback Mountain."
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Tx for posting that rnmina..I really enjoyed that whole section about the locals chatting up the journalist; and AP is so very consistent in her opinions. So reliably practical and disillusioned.
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I agree Jo. Doesn't she sound like a character out of one of her Wyoming stories? I love her and would love to meet her -- I might be so in awe that I'd be tongue tied!!
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Here is a recent article that appeared in the LA TIMES. Seems Annie is ready to leave Wyoming
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-et-proulx18-2008oct18,0,3383917.story?page=1
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I agree Jo. Doesn't she sound like a character out of one of her Wyoming stories? I love her and would love to meet her -- I might be so in awe that I'd be tongue tied!!
I'd jump at the chance, today, esp with the fact that we won't all be here forever....I got some questions, Nik. ;)
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I'd jump at the chance, today~...I got some questions, Nik. ;)
You'd likely have to hog-tie her, tired as she is of BbM fans. And don't be too sure who would end up hog-tied. She's old, but she looks wirey, and I bet she has a shotgun. Much like Granny Clampitt with a Pulitzer.
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I bet she has a shotgun
I would never question that. Perhaps I'll send her a postcard.
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I'd jump at the chance, today~...I got some questions, Nik. ;)
You'd likely have to hog-tie her, tired as she is of BbM fans. And don't be too sure who would end up hog-tied. She's old, but she looks wirey, and I bet she has a shotgun. Much like Granny Clampitt with a Pulitzer.
...or like Mrs. Freeze in 'Pair of Spurs'?
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Those "fans" who sent rewrites of BBM to AP really need to get a life.
They picked the wrong story to try to improve,as the short story simply cannot be improved upon in any way. Not one word needs changing.
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Dal:
No, I haven't read the Spanish translation of Brokeback, and I don't think I would be tempted to do it, either. Spanish is very rich in certain aspects, but it is clearly unable to express the slang used by American cowboys. The cowboy culture is an extraordinary American trait. It is completely unique in its flavor in all the Americas and, therefore, its slang is also peculiar (I may be utterly wrong about this, and maybe others use the same slang). South America has its share of "cowboys" and I have heard them speak, and what they convey is an altogether different thing. I love you, te amo, je t'aime and Ich liebe dich mean the same thing, and yet....
Also, the kind of language used by an American cowboy, if translated to Spanish, would sound utterly unrecognizable to Spanish people, mainly because each country has its own slang. If the translation came from Mexico, in South America it would sound laughable. I, for one, would laugh from beginning to end it if was done in Spain, for Spanish -as spoken there- to Mexican ears sounds like an outdated version of our language. There is no way to translate "I'm gonna tell you this one time, Jack fuckin' Twist, an' I ain't foolin'. What I don't know - all them things that I don't know - could get you killed if I come to know them. I ain't jokin'." Alas!!!
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I just noticed that the Ovation channel is showing an Omnibus program today [2009/02/02] about Annie Proulx called “Annie Proulx: Way Out West”. The synopsis: “Cameras follow the author for 18 months as she researches and writes a novel.” It’s her 2002 book That Old Ace in the Hole. Times: 4pm and 7pm and 2am EST.
Tom, is Ovation a premium channel? I have cable, but don't get premium ones.
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I just noticed that the Ovation channel is showing an Omnibus program today [2009/02/02] about Annie Proulx called “Annie Proulx: Way Out West”. The synopsis: “Cameras follow the author for 18 months as she researches and writes a novel.” It’s her 2002 book That Old Ace in the Hole. Times: 4pm and 7pm and 2am EST.
Tom, is Ovation a premium channel? I have cable, but don't get premium ones.
Info on Ovation channel HERE (http://www.ovationtv.com/).
It’s a commercial channel — when they manage to sell advertising time.
Tks Tom.
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We were kibbitzing in Thread of the Week, and I got to wondering: AP admired the movie take on BBM, very much. Do you think that would alter what she thinks today of her own characters? She said that Heath knew Ennis better than she, or got inside him better than she could. Does that alter your perspective on how she wrote BBM, or what she did with the characters, or did not like in the movie? Ang Lee for example, thought she would hate SNIT......do you think she ever revised her opinions of J and E? She called Ennis 'self-loathing' in 2006..so her opinion about Destructive Rural Homophobia was unlikely to have altered much from her premise. Or did it, based on her reaction to the film? In the film, after all, it is Ennis who refers to Jack, as 'boys like you', which expresses homophobia, I'm thinking.
??
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We were kibbitzing in Thread of the Week, and I got to wondering: AP admired the movie take on BBM, very much. Do you think that would alter what she thinks today of her own characters? She said that Heath knew Ennis better than she, or got inside him better than she could. Does that alter your perspective on how she wrote BBM, or what she did with the characters, or did not like in the movie? Ang Lee for example, thought she would hate SNIT......do you think she ever revised her opinions of J and E? She called Ennis 'self-loathing' in 2006..so her opinion about Destructive Rural Homophobia was unlikely to have altered much from her premise. Or did it, based on her reaction to the film? In the film, after all, it is Ennis who refers to Jack, as 'boys like you', which expresses homophobia, I'm thinking.
??
Hi, csi. I don't understand how seeing the film with its similarities and differences from her original story would change Annie Proulx's view of the theme of her story. I got the impression that her comments about Heath's interpretation of Ennis were about the way he filled in the spaces in the text of the story rather than a revision or reinterpretation of her theme. It has also been noted that a major theme running through Ang Lee's oeuvre is repression.
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Jo, in a recent interview that was linked here (somewhere) she was still emphatically making the point that she was writing about homophobia in a particular time and place so I don't think she's letting go of her themes or of her original view of the story.
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^^^^^^^
I don't think so either...
I like Tom's point about Ang Lee's oeuvre containing repression....It makes sense he'd be drawn to that element in the story.
I do not see the film as a revision, either...although, I do see some revisionist components, ie, SNIT. There was a need to add that scene-it was deemed audiences would not believe in the love without it. Very interesting, that Ang Lee felt that way. He must've realized what was missing from the SS. (or perhaps he was interpreting the time in August that Ennis spent the whole night with Jack....)
I continue to be startled and very impressed at how well AP draws male characters...I was rereading Pair O Spurs the other day, and was just cringing with recognition at some of the personalities. I can't say I've met too many gals like Mrs. Freeze-but I've met more than one or two men like Car Scrope, that's for sure. ;)
I think she did an especially sensitive job with Jack and Ennis in BBM...although there appears to be some senseon board that she missed a few things about being gay....I wonder? It seems that many find it hard to buy the degree of Ennis's repression about Jack-yet we've had testimonials on this very forum from men that spent decades closeted, and telling themselves they were able to be with women, so......
So is AP actually being quite realiistic? Or is she taking literay license to fit her characters into her theme? I guess I don't see anything wrong with the latter, if that is what she is doing. It would be different if it were an actual biography. The argument has been made more than once, that because the characters may have taken on their own life, ie, were starting to write themselves-which, if you've ever written fiction, you know is true; it's certainly happened to me-that somehow she may have not had a handle on them, or lost her way, or something. I don't agree, I'm just wondering what people think. I have seen it happen with other writers-they meander and lose their focus.
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There is and always has been a difference between "subject matter" and" theme."
Similar subject matter can, and has, been employed from "Gilgamesh" to "Aeneid", to perhaps even BBM
to illustrate totally different themes.
BBM may tackle the subject of DRH but DRH sure as hell ain't the theme of the story.
It is also important to note that many different subjects can and are employed to illustrate a shared theme.
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Am posting here about a subject that came up on Topic of the Week, the lyrical qualities of some passages in the SS, and where that could be expanded to a musical sub-structure that may have been a major part of the impact on the reader.
If anyone has any music background, I hope they will forgive my terminology and even correct it, to help fine-tune the subject.
That which isn't verse is prose, is a good start. But prose can be, at times lyrical, meaning poetic or with a musical quality. But it seems to me, there's an over-all musical tempo to AP's prose that reaches a crescendo in the more clearly lyrical passages. The music is there, all along.
All right, then, what's musical about those short westernisms: "Two deuces not going anywhere" ? Well, in some symphonies there are staccato punches, before the rhythm settles down to a regular flow. And that's my point. The SS does not read like regular fiction. There's an orchestrated rhythm, and that.....would be underlying music.
If it's there, was it intended? I doubt that - seems more like a mode the author was in. But further, the symphonic sub-structure helps to get a grip on the reader, pulling them into the rhythm of events and the words usd to decribe them and then, as in any symphony, moving to the climaxes.
The climaxes would be those passages that are lyrical, like the DE, or the ending, where it was said there was some open space between what Ennis knew and what he wanted to believe. For the purposes of the author, this allows giving information far past a declarative sentence, and motioning the reader into the love story itself, by the obliqueness of the words.
Anyone have any thoughts? If not, am glad to have at least rummaged around and said what I wanted to say. Tony.
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Tony, I'm not a composer and neither do I have much knowledge of the structure of music beyond what most reasonably intelligent people have, but I am a writer and I'm aware of how the words can often flow in a musical fashion. Sometimes the choice of word is dictated more by its rhythm than its meaning, e.g. one might have the option of using "puzzled" or "perplexed", and choose one over the other in a particular sentence because of its flow or the way in blends with another word or feeling or whatever.
Short sharp phrases like "Pair a deuces going nowhere" are definitely like staccato passages. It brings to mind the passage from Ode To A Nightingale by Keats:
Now more than ever seems it rich to die,
To cease upon the midnight with no pain,
While thou art pouring forth thy soul abroad
In such an ecstasy!
Still wouldst thou sing, and I have ears in vain—
To thy high requiem become a sod.
That last line is a real thump down into reality.
In BBM AP also uses long lyrical passages to lull us into a sense of security, all the better to shock us, the old "tickle them under the chin then haul back and punch them in the jaw" technique that I think James Shamus described. She does this in the Dozy Embrace, lulling us into a blissful state then hitting us with the line "Ennis wouldn't not then embrace him face to face....". This is like a sudden discordancy at the end of a sweet musical passage; it leaves us unsettled and needing to find the resolution.
I think this is all part of the writer's art. For my own part, I like to read works where the underlying "music" is detectable. Some stories can be read out loud while others just founder when detached from the page. BBM is a wonderful story to listen to. It is full of those passages which fly, yet there are often nasty returns to earth, like "There were only the two of them on the mountain flying in the euphoric bitter air................" and then we learn that Aguirre had spied on them.
The last line is another unresolved passage which leaves the reader in a state akin to Ennis's, never quite knowing the truth but trying our darnedest to figure it out, until we learn to just stand it.
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I think this is all part of the writer's art. For my own part, I like to read works where the underlying "music" is detectable.
Marian, that is a wonderful post and it covers much of what I was referring to, a flow in some prose that is similar to the flow of a long symphony. The operative word you used may well have been "art". Because so many works of fiction are just flat, like a mystery novel or action/adventure thingies. Maybe it's the introduction of underlying music, a tempo, that moves prose from the usual to a work of art.
If that is so, AP has chosen a rare form of musical flow, and I'm trying to remember what the term was, at the turn of the 19th century, when composers broke the usual patterns and I just can't remember. Anyway, probably the advertisements and remembrances, both, of films, show scenes with music because the events and words in the screenplay were already musical. The DE. How many pieces of music can that be set to, since it already is part of a musical flow. Am not, I think, able to get what am thinking across to others, but it is that scenes such as the melt-down in the last meet-up are easily presented with dramatic music, because the music is already there. You could probably do that with any scene, of course, and they do, but some beg to be given a musical score because they were already a key part of a narrative symphony.
I should have stuck with your quote, Marian, as am not doing well past that. But there's something more there and I'm just not able to define it credibly. But thanks for covering much of the territory.
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Am posting here about a subject that came up on Topic of the Week, the lyrical qualities of some passages in the SS, and where that could be expanded to a musical sub-structure that may have been a major part of the impact on the reader.
If anyone has any music background, I hope they will forgive my terminology and even correct it, to help fine-tune the subject.
That which isn't verse is prose, is a good start. But prose can be, at times lyrical, meaning poetic or with a musical quality. But it seems to me, there's an over-all musical tempo to AP's prose that reaches a crescendo in the more clearly lyrical passages. The music is there, all along.
All right, then, what's musical about those short westernisms: "Two deuces not going anywhere" ? Well, in some symphonies there are staccato punches, before the rhythm settles down to a regular flow. And that's my point. The SS does not read like regular fiction. There's an orchestrated rhythm, and that.....would be underlying music.
If it's there, was it intended? I doubt that - seems more like a mode the author was in. But further, the symphonic sub-structure helps to get a grip on the reader, pulling them into the rhythm of events and the words usd to decribe them and then, as in any symphony, moving to the climaxes.
The climaxes would be those passages that are lyrical, like the DE, or the ending, where it was said there was some open space between what Ennis knew and what he wanted to believe. For the purposes of the author, this allows giving information far past a declarative sentence, and motioning the reader into the love story itself, by the obliqueness of the words.
Anyone have any thoughts? If not, am glad to have at least rummaged around and said what I wanted to say. Tony.
I guess I see it as more staccato than flowing..I see alot of her sentences as individual works-little masterpieces; but there are some flowing run-on sentences, like the description of what was talked about round the campfire. What I see alot of, in musical terms, is kind of alternating melodies-or harmonies?-, Jack and Ennis. "I always wanted a boy for a kid, but all I got was two little girls...' 'I never wanted none of either kind.' There is something more contrapuntal to me in that bit...it doesn't flow so much as overlap or something, and certainly they accent each other.....I think the scenes themselves do contain multiple climaxes, pardon my french. I think that agrees with what you are saying...
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First of all, a big thank-you to Marian and Jo for the courtesy of taking a somewhat obtuse subject I've been on, making of it what they could, and giving sound replies. An English professor I admired once said, if you can't say what you are trying to say simply and clearly, then you don't really know what you are talking about. That holds up, but only so far, as some ideas are not reduced so easily. So, am at it again.
Lyrical/poetic/musical - these are different words, but they have some connection. And I've been trying to say that there was a discordant symphonic (musical) sub-structure to the SS, even though some phrases, ("Two deuces going nowhere") seem more like someone making a comment and then spitting out chewing tobacco. Staccato phrases like that would be similar to jarring notes found in symphonies, and so would still apply.
Where this may be of value is in looking at AP's clearly lyrical passages, the DE, and the ending, for example. These would then be crescendo's and conveying more than declarative information, and so, summoning us, musically, into the love story itself, as well as the details which could have been itemized in plain prose. Am saying, there's more there, in those passages, which cannot be reduced to just our takes on the meaning.
Anyway, to show the parallel in musical tempo, am using Walt Whitman's "A Noiseless, Patient Spider". Just as AP is making a triumphant love story out of an intersection of 2 lives in a homophobic environment, Whitman also starts with something small, a spider. Most of the poem, unlike BBM, is overtly lyrical, but I would call attention to the tempo and the climax, which, IMO, roughly parallel BBM. They both made a transcending climax, following somewhat mundane preludes.
A noiseless, patient spider
I mark'd where, on a little promontory, it stood, isolated;
Mark'd how to explore the vacant, vast surrounding,
It launched forth filament, filament, filament, out of itself;
Ever unreeling them --- ever tirelessly speeding them.
And you, O my soul, where you stand,
Surrounded, surrounded, in measureless oceans of space,
Ceaselessly musing, venturing, throwing, ---seeking the spheres,
to connect them;
Till the bridge you need be form'd --- till the ductile anchor
hold;
Till the gossamer thread you fling, catch somewhere, O my Soul.
Am pointing out not just the musical (which would be expected in a poem), but the symphonic (more orchestrated tempo), and am saying that AP has that, wittingly or unwittingly, in BBM, and that it makes the lyrical passages more than just prose that can be unravelled (and much of it can be), but headed into the mood of the music....the love itself.
Curiously, AP has Jack, I think, sitting alone on a promontory and viewing Ennis at a distance as an insect (as does the film). I wonder..... if that then is Jack's song. But AP had a Western format and could not be so overtly romantic as Whitman.
I can't fix this post, so I guess I'll just have to stand it. I think I've at least managed to lay the groundwork for someone who might agree and has a music background, and could express themselves better. If not, am fine with doodling around, as I have, as far as I could go.
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I think this is all part of the writer's art. For my own part, I like to read works where the underlying "music" is detectable.
Marian, that is a wonderful post and it covers much of what I was referring to, a flow in some prose that is similar to the flow of a long symphony. The operative word you used may well have been "art". Because so many works of fiction are just flat, like a mystery novel or action/adventure thingies. Maybe it's the introduction of underlying music, a tempo, that moves prose from the usual to a work of art.
If that is so, AP has chosen a rare form of musical flow, and I'm trying to remember what the term was, at the turn of the 19th century, when composers broke the usual patterns and I just can't remember. Anyway, probably the advertisements and remembrances, both, of films, show scenes with music because the events and words in the screenplay were already musical. The DE. How many pieces of music can that be set to, since it already is part of a musical flow. Am not, I think, able to get what am thinking across to others, but it is that scenes such as the melt-down in the last meet-up are easily presented with dramatic music, because the music is already there. You could probably do that with any scene, of course, and they do, but some beg to be given a musical score because they were already a key part of a narrative symphony.
I should have stuck with your quote, Marian, as am not doing well past that. But there's something more there and I'm just not able to define it credibly. But thanks for covering much of the territory.
I'm interested - hope you can remember what the term is as I don't quite know what you're saying. Do you mean the patterns of musical form – eg what was a sonata, concerto, symphony; or patterns within eg a phrase of music - of stress or tempo, or unexpected key change? This is all a bit difficult to express.
Tony, I'm not a composer and neither do I have much knowledge of the structure of music beyond what most reasonably intelligent people have, but I am a writer and I'm aware of how the words can often flow in a musical fashion. Sometimes the choice of word is dictated more by its rhythm than its meaning, e.g. one might have the option of using "puzzled" or "perplexed", and choose one over the other in a particular sentence because of its flow or the way in blends with another word or feeling or whatever.
Short sharp phrases like "Pair a deuces going nowhere" are definitely like staccato passages. It brings to mind the passage from Ode To A Nightingale by Keats:
Now more than ever seems it rich to die,
To cease upon the midnight with no pain,
While thou art pouring forth thy soul abroad
In such an ecstasy!
Still wouldst thou sing, and I have ears in vain—
To thy high requiem become a sod.
That last line is a real thump down into reality.
What I keep noticing in the SS is the juxtaposition of intense poetical language with the (usually) down-to-earth language of E and J's conversation. So we get 'The meadow stones glowed white-green and a flinty wind worked over the meadow, scraped the fire low, then ruffled it into yellow silk sashes', bounded by "Too late to go out to them damn sheep" and "Got you an extra blanket....".
Then in the description of the start of the Hail Strew River ride: 'the boneless blue was so deep, said Jack, that he might drown looking up' - this is not a change in register, but the real thump here is only in retrospect, when you know what happens to Jack. That was a bad moment for me - I'd thought 'the boneless blue' was so beautiful, but later it became invested with an element of horror.
I love that Walt Whitman poem, Tony - that amazing expansion from the miniature to the universal. Yes, I can hear it as music, a rapid crescendo, but it's very visual for me too.
And the sensuousness (have I got the right word? Yes, not sensuality) of Ode to a Nightingale, well, of Keats generally, I suppose, is echoed in AP's prose.
Not sure what I'm saying - you, and Jo too, have just made me concentrate again on the language, which is always a pleasure.
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Dear Cally - the change in what was acceptable as a symphony is probably a red herring. Am so much of a musical illiterate, am not sure if that aspect applies, to allowing for a symphonic quality to BBM. But I think, vaguely, the term used was atonal, and the new piece was "Rites of Spring".
Generally, we think of formal music as the waltzes like "The Blue Danube" and we'd never see that consistency in BBM. But go to Russian opera or symphonies and we do start seeing wild variations in tempo, the pace of the work: "War of 1812", by Tchaikovsky, "Night on Bald Mountain" by Moussorgsky, "Polovtsian Dancers", from "Prince Igor" by Borodin. If I have them right. These works speed up, slow down, go off into side eddies, and then bring the audience into the desired explosions at the end. Like BBM. But I just can't get a handle on this. I am only saying symphonic qualities do not exclude wildly varying tempos or pace, such as we would find in BBM.
You have made the other area more workable in pointing out the variations in AP's prose, where there is the mundane and then the lyrical. I guess my point is that prose becomes a higher level of art when there is a musical sub-structure, and this symphonic quality need not have been planned by the author. In fact, I would think the opposite: it would be the gift of the author, used unknowingly.
And then another point, taken from the Topic of the Week, about lyrical passages. They do have a meaning, or several, which can be discussed, but also, as part of a symphonic crescendo, they rise above meaning (which could be given in declarative sentences), creating an environment similar to music, which invites the audience in and snares them.
And this also goes to how we were affected by BBM. It could have been that subliminal musical tempo, that added an additional sense of hearing, somehow, the music, as well as visualizing the action.
For the purposes of looking over the meanings of the ending, this would add the additional factor of a lyrical crescendo, defying meaning, and inviting the reader, by musical vagueness, into the love itself. So, we'd be hooked, not on the ending information, but the lack of it, which draws us in to whats left: a direct seduction into the lover's mind.
Again, thanks for the interest. But I really am, so far, unable to do better with this, even though I think it's there and important. Tony.
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Cally,
I think 'boneless blue' is one of the truly great phrases in all of English literature-it says so much so implicitly yet so powerfully, with two little words, that you don't ever see together, really, do you?
It always makes me think of Jack as ashes.
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What I keep noticing in the SS is the juxtaposition of intense poetical language with the (usually) down-to-earth language of E and J's conversation. So we get 'The meadow stones glowed white-green and a flinty wind worked over the meadow, scraped the fire low, then ruffled it into yellow silk sashes', bounded by "Too late to go out to them damn sheep" and "Got you an extra blanket....".
I think I finally know what am trying to say, without all the excess grumping around:
- regular prose, like a mystery novel, has no musical tempo. When prose has an underlying musical format, it becomes a work of art, and I see this in BBM.
- the Western format, with short phrases that could be followed by spitting out chewing tobacco, seems to argue against a musical sub-structure.
- But modern symphonies allow for these staccato outbursts, and they even become some kind of contrapuntal rhythm, that enhances the final effect. The quote from Cally, above, notes this alternation between
rough language and lyrical passages.
- with regard to the Topic of the Week (some open space between what Ennis knew and what he wanted to believe), this musical structure is in play. The author does not want to end the story with clearly
understood sentences. She points to possible meanings, which are legit subjects for exploring. But the vagueness and the lyrical quality are the music in play, and the purpose there is not to inform, but to seduce
the reader INTO the lover's mind, to entrap us into the same vagueness and confusion from which he suffers.
- the musical tempo, then, was part of getting a stronger grip on the reader, calling in other senses, and the rhythym, at first unnoticed, sets us up for the stronger reactions we have have experienced. And were
not prepared for.
- alternating rhythms and switching from sharp, piercing Westernisms to lyrical passages are the music tempo in play.
- the introduction of music, which is non-verbal, means we will never have a definitive answer to many questions. Music lifts the experience above a narrative format, which can be kept at a distance, into a more
personal experience which pulls you into the lovers' world itself.
I think I'm done. That's what I wanted to say, but it took a while.
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Tony, I think I see what you're saying - really interesting. Last night I gazed at it blankly, but now fortified by morning caffeine, yes, I like it :). I can't comment on details because I'm still finding it pretty intangible and elusive, but it's certainly got me thinking.
I'm about to start reading That Old Ace in the Hole, and will have what you say in the back of my mind. But then short stories are slightly more manageable to analyse. (But only slightly in the case of BBM.)
It didn't help that in your earlier post I was starting off at the wrong end of the 19th century, but then I suppose Beethoven was being similarly innovative at the beginning of it.
Cally,
I think 'boneless blue' is one of the truly great phrases in all of English literature-it says so much so implicitly yet so powerfully, with two little words, that you don't ever see together, really, do you?
It always makes me think of Jack as ashes.
Yes, before I associated it also with death I saw it as soft yielding blue sky that went on and on for ever - and still do, of course, but now there's the added dimension. And there is for me an element of the reflection of the sky in Jake's blue eyes that certainly can't have been AP's intention. And probably now I'll have your idea of ashes in my mind too - all part of the unpredictable way we respond to an author's printed words.
Using words in a startling, unconventional way is one of her great skills, isn't it?
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OH, yes. For example: 'slippery wind'-what wind is slippery? It gives you the sense of the eroticism of the moment, using the weather-something that refects back Ennis's feelings so well.
Then there's the 'catkins like yellow thumbprints'-the association of yellow-fear/cowardice?-with thumbprints-evidence of mistakes?-can give layered depth of emotion to the last ride, which if you look at it critically, does not seem to be just about the geography and weather-a page and a half of it, no less.
One of my faves is, 'a horse stamped inside the trailer'-it has a possible association to the Earl event, since J and E are facing the issue of Jack's sexuality at that moment-and it seems to me to be a reminder of the spurring that Earl got from Ennis's father, among others...Horses seem to be representing men , in the story. Also, she uses 'stamped' instead of stomped-stamping leaves a mark, like the 'deceased' stamp on the postcard. All these images of DRH (Destructive Rural Homophobia) in one little story. ( I don't know if 'stamp' is also a common word with regards to horses actions...)
Blue, as in boneless, is also the colour of death-deoxygenation. Breathing, inhaling, choking are all prevalent images..and the flame under the coffee pot in Ennis's trailer in the prologue is blue, and it is juxtaposed to the fine gravel and sand hitting the trailer, and the wind,'dies, leaving a temporary silence.' It's like he's living it over and over....If you see the coffee pot as an erotic symbol, that adds more demension: Ennis has trouble finding 'the handle' on the pot.....
But I confess, I thought of Jake's blue eyes at first, too. ;)
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And the pinky skin tones of the movie star's photo have turned magenta with age, slowly shifting towards the blue of death while the shirts stiffen in the closet. Jack's room speaks of death.
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I am pretty sure green is the only color safe from kidnapping!
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~ I don't know if 'stamp' is also a common word with regards to horses actions.~
Yes it is. They do it when they're restless or impatient, or starting to get irritated. Maybe Ennis' horse was picking up the rising tension of the conversation outside.
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The Spring 2009 issue of The Paris Review has an interview of Annie Proulx by John Banville. She has some surprising things to say about Brokeback Mountain.
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The Spring 2009 issue of The Paris Review has an interview of Annie Proulx by John Banville. She has some surprising things to say about Brokeback Mountain.
I havent' read the interview. I'm beginning to believe that Annie is regretting the amount of attention that Brokeback has gotten, which seems to overshadow the rest of her work.
I had the opportunity to go to a reading that Annie did in NYC. A large group of people attended, and she read the short story, "The Sagebrush Kid". At the Q & A session, there were a lot of people who asked Brokeback related questions, and one woman also commented on the humor/eerie aspect of "The Sagebrush Kid" and asked if this was a new direction she was going in. If you are familiar with Annie's writtings, you'll know that she's written those types of stories before.
The next day she was doing a book signing. I had a copy of the SS Brokeback, but I also made of point of bringing another book (Bad Dirt 2) for her to sign. As I looked around, most people had Brokeback related material for her to sign. One person even had 10 copies of the short story for her. We all knew those were going on E*Bay at one point. ::) but she still signed them grasciously.
When I got to her, I refused to discuss how much Brokeback meant to me. I instead mentioned I had been to the reading, and asked about "The Sagebrush Kid".....she smiled very widely, and let me know it was in her (then) soon to be released collection "Fine Just The Way It Is".
I think she's become tired discussing a story that was published 12 years ago.
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Well <spoiler alert> at one point in the interview she said she wished she had never written the story. She was appalled by the attention that the story got after the movie came out; she found it particularly disturbing (I paraphrase) that people wanted to rewrite the story so it had a happy ending.
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Well <spoiler alert> at one point in the interview she said she wished she had never written the story. She was appalled by the attention that the story got after the movie came out; she found it particularly disturbing (I paraphrase) that people wanted to rewrite the story so it had a happy ending.
Yeah, she said something similar in another interview a few months ago and, when reported here on the forum, it caused quite a stir on this or another one of the threads.
She is coming across as a bit "prickly" I suppose.
She likes to say that she always leaves room in her stories for the reader to "bring their own experiences" to fill the gaps but , at the same time, she seems to have some definite ideas about which "experiences' are acceptable. :D
She has also admitted that she spent an inordinate (relatively) amount of time writing BBM . (six weeks? ...six months" which is it? Reports differ)
In so doing it appears she created two very real, multi-dimensional characters in Ennis and Jack.
This, of course, is a double edged sword.
The verisimilitude assists in not only the telling of the story but, also, in heightening its emotional impact.
The downside, I suppose, is that such realism allows the characters to take on a life of their own quite beyond the
control of the author.
Consequently the characters evolve into something much more than mere mannequins upon which to hang a tale.
This is a fairly common phenomenon, however, when a piece of art is elevated, (or lowered depending upon one's point of view)
to an iconic cultural status.
It is reported that Selznick lamented the fact that he ever produced "Gone With the Wind".
Authors and artists and actors are always, it seems , concerned about being stereotyped and with good reason I suppose.
Still, one has to wonder why someone would send AP examples of their fanfic.
Just, exactly, what type of response do they anticipate?
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By the time she wrote BBM Annie Proulx had already won two literary awards, so at that point she had a comfortable life, and career, and didn't need to prove anything to anyone but herself.
WE can't help it if she swung for a pop-up fly ball and instead gave us a freak home run, masterpiece and everything. It's not OUR fault we love her story, and her writing. So she and I and we-all will have to find some way to stand this situation.
Because of the additional artistic masterpiece of the movie, which reached a broad spectrum of people, she finds herself exposed to fans that she never meant to reach, perhaps. And the phenomenon of Slash understandably can never be appreciated by an original author.
So yeah, it's hard to imagine any slash writer, male or female,sharing their story with Annie Proulx.
Although, if you'll also notice, she did pretty much sum up the meaning of the story for us. (FWIW) :D
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So yeah, it's hard to imagine any slash writer, male or female,sharing their story with Annie Proulx.
Apparently someone did -- and I doubt it was the author.
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So yeah, it's hard to imagine any slash writer, male or female,sharing their story with Annie Proulx.
Apparently someone did -- and I doubt it was the author.
I suppose that's possible.
But I did meet someone a couple of years ago who was rewriting the story, and he told me he was going to send it to AP. This guy wasn't writing a sequel or a spinoff. He was changing the original story because he thought AP got it wrong.
I also directed him to the slash threads, LiveJournal, and a couple of other fanfic sites. He wasn't interested in those.
I think it's possible that there are a lot more people out there who do not associate with the rest of the fans. What bothers me most is that AP probably doesn't realize that, although I don't remember her ever directing these comments at "the fans' in general. I've seen 'fans' referred to in the titles and bylines of articles, but she never said that.
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So yeah, it's hard to imagine any slash writer, male or female,sharing their story with Annie Proulx.
Apparently someone did -- and I doubt it was the author.
I suppose that's possible.
But I did meet someone a couple of years ago who was rewriting the story, and he told me he was going to send it to AP. This guy wasn't writing a sequel or a spinoff. He was changing the original story because he thought AP got it wrong.
I also directed him to the slash threads, LiveJournal, and a couple of other fanfic sites. He wasn't interested in those.
I think it's possible that there are a lot more people out there who do not associate with the rest of the fans. What bothers me most is that AP probably doesn't realize that, although I don't remember her ever directing these comments at "the fans' in general. I've seen 'fans' referred to in the titles and bylines of articles, but she never said that.
I get the impression that the men who send their happy-ending versions of the story to AP are not fanfic witers, but men with an agenda. It's as if they're attacking her for getting the story wrong. There's also something misogynistic about them.
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Yes, she does seem to be saying that it was misogynistic. I know there are plenty of women who write alternate endings, but presumably they don't send them to Annie Proulx and imply that she got it wrong.
I find it fascinating what she says about her story though:
They can’t understand that the story isn’t about Jack and Ennis. It’s about homophobia; it’s about a social situation; it’s about a place and a particular mindset and morality.
and
you have to have characters to hang the story on
It suggests that she thought of the situation before the characters, doesn't it? I suppose that makes sense, because the situation IS the story really.
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[But I did meet someone a couple of years ago who was rewriting the story, and he told me he was going to send it to AP. This guy wasn't writing a sequel or a spinoff. He was changing the original story because he thought AP got it wrong.
I also directed him to the slash threads, LiveJournal, and a couple of other fanfic sites. He wasn't interested in those.
Oy! I'd been thinking that someone had to be sending her something off the Internet and giving her a bogus story but I guess that would go in the "there isn't anything at least one person won't do" department.
I think it's possible that there are a lot more people out there who do not associate with the rest of the fans.
Just as well..... ::)
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Just as well..... ::)
You bet.
I had forgotten about this incident from 2 years ago until we started this discussion about the Paris Review article. I don't even know if the guy was gay, we never talked about that.
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Given that we know Annie Proulx based her short stories on many of the people and situations she saw during her research in Wyoming, (near South Dakota) -- how do you think she would carry out this story to the end?
Anybody who has read Close Range, and Wyoming Stories, care to submit a synopsis in Annie Prouls style?
John has started off with a small satire:
Brokeback Mountain U.S. Box Office Revenue: $84,000,000
23 Year Old S. Dakota Cowboy Lottery Winner: $232,000,000
Wanless bought $15 worth of tickets to the May 27 30-state drawing at a convenience store in Winner during a trip to buy livestock feed. He will take home a lump sum of $88.5 million after taxes are deducted.
(https://ultimatebrokebackforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi275.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fjj282%2FSanFranciscoJohn%2F090605-wanless-hmed-2p_hmedium.jpg&hash=5df0120e7cb493f0faee6cf3aab727d546846c48)
Neal Wanless, 23, accepts a ceremonial check for winning a $232 million Powerball lottery jackpot, Friday in Pierre, S.D. He'll take home $88.5 million in a lump-sum payment after taxes are deducted.
In an interview with KBBM, Wanless said "All I'm sayin' is, what's the point of winning it? If the taxes don't get it, the inflation eats it all up"
The story above is a satire or parody
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Here is the whole story --
SD rancher wins $232 million jackpot
(https://ultimatebrokebackforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi275.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fjj282%2FSanFranciscoJohn%2Fneal.jpg&hash=563c80f8f0ecf7dd576924d84837d3e88e0e5770)
If this were a movie, nobody would believe it: A rancher struggling to eke out a living in one of the poorest corners of America claimed one of the biggest undivided jackpots in U.S. lottery history Friday — $232 million — after buying the ticket in a town by the name of Winner.
Neal Wanless, 23, said he intends to buy himself more room to roam and repay the kindness other townspeople have shown his family.
"I want to thank the Lord for giving me this opportunity and blessing me with this great fortune. I will not squander it," he promised, wearing a big black cowboy hat and a huge grin.
Wanless, who is single, lives with his mother and father on the family's 320-acre ranch near Mission, where they raise cattle, sheep and horses. They don't own a phone, a mobile home of theirs was repossessed last year, and records show they have fallen $3,552 behind in their property taxes.
Dave Assman, who owns farmland next to the Wanless ranch, said he is happy the family won't have to worry about money any more. "They've been real short on finances for a long time," Assman said. "They are from real meager means, I guess you'd say."
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_rags_to_riches (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_rags_to_riches)
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Annie Proulx interviewed in the latest issue of The Paris Review. She's not happy with what slash writers have done to "Brokeback Mountain":
PROULX
That was true of a number of the characters in Fine Just the Way It Is. But I think it happened with “Brokeback Mountain” because it took me so long to write that story. It took at least six weeks of steady work, which is not my usual pace. So yeah, they got a life of their own. And unfortunately, they got a life of their own for too many other people too.
INTERVIEWER
What do you mean?
PROULX
I wish I’d never written the story. It’s just been the cause of hassle and problems and irritation since the film came out. Before the film it was all right.
INTERVIEWER
Did people object to the fact that gay characters were in the center of a story about Wyoming?
PROULX
Oh, yeah. In Wyoming they won’t read it. A large section of the population is still outraged. But that’s not where the problem was. I’m used to that response from people here, who generally do not like the way I write. But the problem has come since the film. So many people have completely misunderstood the story. I think it’s important to leave spaces in a story for readers to fill in from their own experience, but unfortunately the audience that “Brokeback” reached most strongly have powerful fantasy lives. And one of the reasons we keep the gates locked here is that a lot of men have decided that the story should have had a happy ending. They can’t bear the way it ends—they just can’t stand it. So they rewrite the story, including all kinds of boyfriends and new lovers and so forth after Jack is killed. And it just drives me wild. They can’t understand that the story isn’t about Jack and Ennis. It’s about homophobia; it’s about a social situation; it’s about a place and a particular mindset and morality. They just don’t get it. I can’t tell you how many of these things have been sent to me as though they’re expecting me to say, oh great, if only I’d had the sense to write it that way. And they all begin the same way—I’m not gay, but . . . The implication is that because they’re men they understand much better than I how these people would have behaved. And maybe they do. But that’s not the story I wrote. Those are not their characters. The characters belong to me by law.
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Annie Proulx to Present Summer Sunset Lecture at UNM
"Annie Proulx will present “Coming Out of the Mountains” a lecture about life and writing on June 20 at 6 p.m. in the West Wing of Zimmerman Library. The lecture is hosted by University Libraries as one of two Summer Sunset lectures being held."
Read more. (http://www.unm.edu/~market/cgi-bin/archives/004028.html#more) | (https://ultimatebrokebackforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdavecullen.com%2Fbrokeback%2Fdaily%2Fformat%2Fplaceholder.gif&hash=476950888770fe942ed4961a5185c13c00f2173f) |
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My local book club just selected for our July book My Mistress's Sparrow Is Dead: Love Stories from Chekov to Munro. its editor, Jeffrey Eugenides, author of Middlesex) which we also read and enjoyed, had this to say when asked about his selection of stories:
Q: What was the process of elimination like? Can you discuss which stories you decided to leave out?
A: The story I miss most is "Brokeback Mountain" by Annie Proulx. I picked it, but we weren't able to the secure the rights to reprint it, even though the anthology supports a charitable cause. ...
You can see the quote and the rest of the short interview here on Amazon. (http://www.amazon.com/My-Mistresss-Sparrow-Dead-Stories/dp/0061240389/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1246304930&sr=8-1)
- Lydia
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My local book club just selected for our July book My Mistress's Sparrow Is Dead: Love Stories from Chekov to Munro. its editor, Jeffrey Eugenides, author of Middlesex) which we also read and enjoyed, had this to say when asked about his selection of stories:
Q: What was the process of elimination like? Can you discuss which stories you decided to leave out?
A: The story I miss most is "Brokeback Mountain" by Annie Proulx. I picked it, but we weren't able to the secure the rights to reprint it, even though the anthology supports a charitable cause. ...
You can see the quote and the rest of the short interview here on Amazon. (http://www.amazon.com/My-Mistresss-Sparrow-Dead-Stories/dp/0061240389/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1246304930&sr=8-1)
- Lydia
Lydia, was this a collection? If so, what edition and how much. If not, did you read the stories separately? Sounds interesting.
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Reading short stories by Alice Munro these days. She writes about her own world
whereas Annie Proulx catalogs the circus. Pins the specimens.
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Larry, I remember reading a review in the past decade or so of a short story--possibly by Munro--similar to "Brokeback Mountain" about two heretofore "straight" guys who unexpectedly fall in love and find themselves in a gay sexual relationship. Ring any bells? (I might have to track down the past 10 years of "The Best Gay Fiction" and see if I can remember who the hell it was, but I thought it was a female author, and Munro strikes a bell.)
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In the few gay bookstores left... Vancouver, San Francisco, NYC and DC, there is considerable fiction on the shelves. I wouldn't be at all surprised to come across a story or two about straight boys falling in love... or, in the porn sections, going a lot further. But Brokeback Mountains is the Mount Everest among these hills.
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E. Annie Proulx papers and 'Eloise' illustrations donated to New York library
NEW YORK — A celebrated chronicler of rural life, E. Annie Proulx, has found a literary home in the big city.
Proulx, whose works include the Pulitzer Prize-winning novel "The Shipping News" and the short story "Brokeback Mountain" that was the basis for the film starring Heath Ledger, has donated her papers to the New York Public Library.
"What writer would not be honoured to be in the company of Walt Whitman, Mark Twain, Thoreau, Saul Bellow, Nabokov, Jack Kerouac, Virginia Woolf, Marianne Moore, Paul Auster and W. H. Auden?" Proulx said in a statement released Monday by the library. "To me there is an odd sense of balance that material dealing with some of the most rural landscapes in North America will reside in our major city."
Proulx is giving tens of thousands of pages to the library, including diaries, journals, manuscripts and notebooks. The collection includes early versions of "Brokeback Mountain," with such working titles as "Bulldust Mountain" and "Swill-Swallow Mountain," and drafts of the film's screenplay written by Larry McMurtry and Diana Ossana.
http://www.google.com/hostednews/canadianpress/article/ALeqM5inpB9WvcwaAiaXVLm3YjGCDTetFg (http://www.google.com/hostednews/canadianpress/article/ALeqM5inpB9WvcwaAiaXVLm3YjGCDTetFg)
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all i can say is...whew!
for choosing "Brokeback Mountain," over such working titles as "Bulldust Mountain" and "Swill-Swallow Mountain
try picturing Jack saying those names..."what we got now is...."
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Done ;D
http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=36777.msg1706784#msg1706784 (http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=36777.msg1706784#msg1706784)
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Correspondence, Early Book Drafts, Notebooks, Sketches for The Shipping News, Brokeback Mountain and Other Works Now Available to Researchers in The Henry W. and Albert A. Berg Collection of English and American Literature
“I am, of course, very pleased that my notes, manuscript, sketches, letters and photographs have gone to the Berg Collection of The New York Public Library,” said Ms. Proulx. “What writer would not be honored to be in the company of Walt Whitman, Mark Twain, Thoreau, Saul Bellow, Nabokov, Jack Kerouac, Virginia Woolfe, Marianne Moore, Paul Auster and W. H. Auden? To me there is an odd sense of balance that material dealing with some of the most rural landscapes in North America will reside in our major city. Aside from the pages directly related to my writing, the letters, emails, financial reports to and from agents, publishers, editors and translators may be useful to future historians and scholars examining this period in American publishing and literature. We are currently undergoing major changes in the way we regard intellectual property and literary work; some of anxieties of that metamorphosis are reflected in my archive.”
The collection includes an early notebook (1987-89) of draft ideas for Proulx’s first novel, Postcards, which won a Pen-Faulkner Award for Fiction. Her most famous novel, the Pulitzer Prize-winning The Shipping News, is represented by 3,662 pages of typescript, many with holograph revision and correction, along with screenplay adaptation pages and correspondence. A 1993 typescript bears heavy holograph revisions in purple ink. Early drafts (1994) of the novel Accordion Crimes total about 1,000 pages.
A notebook containing original manuscript ideas for Proulx’s short story “Brokeback Mountain” is included in the collection, along with 21 typescripts under a variety of working titles including “Bulldust Mountain,” “Whiskey Mountain,” and “Swill-Swallow Mountain.” Three corrected typescript drafts of Larry McMurtry and Diana Ossana’s screenplay adaption of the story are included, along with legal documentation and clippings.
http://www.nypl.org/press/releases/?article_id=353 (http://www.nypl.org/press/releases/?article_id=353)
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The Berg Collection was established for the use of scholars and researchers. Conservation concerns, as well as other demands on staff time, require that we limit the use of our materials to this group. We do, however, attempt to satisfy the general public's interest in our holdings through interpretive exhibitions and group presentations. If your group (minimum 8 persons, maximum 20) would like to schedule a presentation with the Curator, please contact him
http://www.nypl.org/research/chss/spe/brg/procedure.html (http://www.nypl.org/research/chss/spe/brg/procedure.html)
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Done ;D
http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=36777.msg1706784#msg1706784 (http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=36777.msg1706784#msg1706784)
\
HA! yeah, just doesn't work. how can you be really pissed off and say swill-swallow?
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I'm thinking we need to organize a group presentation at the NYPL.
It says on their website that they can accomodate groups of 8-20 for a presentation by the curator.
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Photo from the dinner, courtesy Patrick McMullan
(https://ultimatebrokebackforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi275.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fjj282%2FSanFranciscoJohn%2Fslide_3487_49357_large.jpg&hash=2f666279dd80d2b081edd8cacf3c3fc7392fa36e)
NYPL President Paul Leclerc (left) and Chairman Catie Marron (right) with Library Lions honorees David Smith, Annie Proulx, Janice Moore-Smith, Hilary Knight, and Julia Chang
Read more at: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/11/03/new-york-public-library-c_n_344091.html
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No one knows anything, and other dilemmas of the e-book era
William Goldman, who wrote Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid, is almost as well known for his coruscating portrait of the movie business, Adventures in the Screen Trade. This, in turn, is celebrated for its dictum about Hollywood executives – "No one knows anything" – a phrase that has a way of popping into mind whenever the discussion turns towards the future of books and newspapers.
I've noticed that whenever writers, publishers and journalists get together, sooner or later the conversation turns to The Way We Live Now, the ongoing IT revolution, usually with reference to manifestations of the latest innovation (lately, for instance, the Kindle and Twitter). Finally, the conversation usually culminates in a version of Where Will It End? or How Will It Affect My Livelihood?
It's at this point that "No one knows anything" comes to mind. Is that why this paradigm shift we're living through can seem so unnerving? Everyone is doing their best to make sense of a confusing picture, but still being blindsided by unanticipated change. And the situation is not helped by the mixed signals we are getting from the world of print itself, the everyday business of newspapers and books.
For example, the past two weeks has seen a lot of high-profile "old media" literary news: Annie Proulx, author of Brokeback Mountain, donating her papers; the likely sale of Siegfried Sassoon's manuscripts to the Cambridge University Library; the imminent publication of Vladimir Nabokov's posthumous novel, The Original of Laura, preserved on 138 index cards. All this stuff is pure gold to literary historians, and not one part of it exists in virtual form.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/booksblog/2009/nov/09/digital-books-publishing-ebook-mccrum
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Library Lions is The New York Public Library's most important annual event and one of the most anticipated dinners on New York City's social calendar. This year—at a time when Library usage has skyrocketed—we are expanding on our Library Lions tradition. Along with the noted luminaries we are recognizing tonight—Annie Prolux, Pulitzer Prizewinning author of The Shipping News and "Brokeback Mountain" and Hilary Knight, beloved illustrator of the Eloise children's books—we are honoring three members of the Library's extraordinary staff, heroes on the front lines who make a difference in the everyday lives of New Yorkers.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EIIOLJ3HPbE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EIIOLJ3HPbE)
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“Better Two than One: THE SHIRTS FROM BROKEBACK MOUNTAIN”
Remarks by Gregory Hinton
excerpt:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It is for this reason I look forward to working with Dr. Steve Aron on “Gay in the
West,” the symposium we are planning with the Autry Institute for the Study of
the American West and UCLA. We have some great speakers we want you to get
to know plus we want to hear your stories, also.
To know us is to love us. And that is why when we quit our rural communities,
they lose too.
In this regard, Annie Proulx recently wrote me the following:
I wish Mr. Hinton good fortune in his work. He is tragically
right when he says western rural communities lose very much
when gay men and women have to leave the state. I know some
gay people who have stayed. Gradually the community accepts
them, but only if they are born there.
I recently returned to Wyoming with the ashes of my beloved older brother,
Scotty, and Ron, his partner of thirty years. Before he died, my brother requested
that they be scattered in Crazy Woman Creek, in the shadow of the Big Horn
Mountains. After life in urban Southern California, my western brother yearned
for his rural past till the end.
For those of us who come from the West, it’s in our blood and never lets us go.
Seated here today, in this gallery called the Spirit of Imagination, are Saddle
Bronc Riders, Chute Doggers, Barrel Racers and Bull Riders, some who also
happen to be Gay or Lesbian. I look at them and ask you.
What is not to love?
When I study these intertwined shirts, like the character of Ennis Del Mar in
Brokeback Mountain, I am overcome with survivor’s guilt. Lovers, brothers, a
cowboy father wanting to protect his sons, when I look at the shirts, I am grateful
they will always be together. It makes sense. It’s what we all hope for. It’s what
anybody deserves. Better two than one. Better two together, than two alone.
I’ll close with a brief reading from Annie Proulx’s short story, Brokeback Mountain
and then I have a few people to thank.
(Remembering, here, Heath Ledger)
“The shirt seemed heavy until he saw there was another shirt inside it, the sleeves
carefully worked down inside Jack’s sleeves. It was his own plaid shirt, lost he’d thought,
in some damn laundry, his dirty shirt, the pocket ripped, buttons missing, stolen by Jack
and hidden here inside Jack’s own shirt, the pair like two skins, one inside the other, two
in one. He pressed his face into the fabric, and breathed in slowly through his mouth and
nose, hoping for the faintest smoke and mountain sage and salty sweet stink of Jack but
there was no real scent, only the memory of it, the imagined power of Brokeback
Mountain of which nothing was left but what he held in his hands.”
PDF of the complete Out West first chapter
http://media.scpr.org/images/news/2009/12/10/Autry_Comments-Hinton.pdf
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Pulitzer-Prize-winning author attends awards banquet
Fans of the book-turned-movie “Brokeback Mountain” had several chances Thursday to meet the brains behind the story, Pulitzer-Prize-winning author Annie Proulx.
Proulx appeared at a public interview session in Hicks Undergraduate Library in the afternoon, then spoke at Purdue’s 79th annual Literary Awards banquet before giving a reading of her latest work at Fowler Hall. Proulx read from her memoir, “Bird Cloud,” a recollection of her travels and experiences growing up. At the interview she gave insight into her methods and thought processes as a writer.
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Proulx read an hour’s worth of her memoir at Fowler Hall and answered questions from students afterward. She explained her reasoning behind making the protagonists of “Brokeback Mountain” cowboys.
“If you live in the West, you know the most revered occupation is the cowboy ... it is the symbol of refined masculinity,” Proulx said. “What a lot of readers don’t understand is the characters in ‘Brokeback Mountain’ – the story, not the movie – are not cowboys, they are wanna-be cowboys. Just because you wear a big hat and ride a horse, it does not make you a cowboy.”
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full article:
http://purdueexponent.org/?module=article&story_id=21197 (http://purdueexponent.org/?module=article&story_id=21197)
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strange article in a way -- quoting that student at the end who doesn't get why an hour's reading from Annie Proulx of her own memoir is remarkable.
In any case, I am thrilled to think we may have her memoir to read soon.
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I listened to the link provided in the Daily Sheet
http://fora.tv/2010/10/01/Living_History#Annie_Proulx_Choice_Words_on_Film_Adaptations_of_Books
not just the preview but the whole program --
At one point the moderator asked the authors on the panel about their experience having films made of their movies -- none of them was happy about it, although we know Annie Proulx believes Brokeback Mountain was an excellent film adaptation of her story.
She said she thinks, in general, most authors would prefer people read their books, but that film is the medium of today, and that's just the way it is. The moderator asked her if people were inspired to read Brokeback Mountain after the movie and she said--
No, the New Yorker and Amazon and her publisher made it available on-line for download so nobody had to buy it.
Which isn't really answering the question -- but I can understand her ire at that.
Of course she is as aware as I am that many people did buy her story at the time the movie was out, and also bought Close Range, and also bought Story to Screenplay.
I think she may just be at a stage in her life where reality isn't much use. That's okay, once you've written a masterpiece.
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No, the New Yorker and Amazon and her publisher made it available on-line for download so nobody had to buy it.
I knew of the movie before the book, but in researching found out about the short story before seeing the movie. I'm one of those people who will read a book, and then see the movie and think "The book was better", and not wanting to have that feeling, I saw the film first, and then went and got copies of just the short story, as well as Close Range.
After reading Close Range (Wyoming Stories), I went and got Bad Dirt (Wyoming Stories 2) and Fine Just The Way It Is (Wyoming Stories 3).
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I was inspired to buy the book (more than once), even though it was available for free.
I also purchased the audio book and Story to Screenplay.
If A.P. and the others involved in the film are so set on disassociating themselves with the film I see no reason to keep supporting them.
The "Beyond Brokeback" event in L.A. will probably be the last event I get involved with.
Next time I buy a classic movie on DVD it'll be something like "Somewhere In Time", a film that has seen tremendous support from everyone involved. The fans of that film have had annniversary screenings where Jane Seymour and Christopher Reeve have attended, and Universal has always supported the fan club. They seem to be proud of this movie.
For those who call this little piece a Sour Grapes Rant, play it as it lays.
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I will however be supporting the BBM Ballet in San Francisco next August since I have already invested a lot of money in that.
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Can't go into Powell's bookstore in Portland without checking out the shelf where copies of Brokeback Mountain are now marked down to something like $2.95. Often buy one or two. Usually pass them on to friends and relatives.
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^^^^
all true, and because of the film I was exposed to all the fanfare about the story-- and without that publicity, I wouldn't have bought Close Range or Bad Dirt-- and of course, Story to Screenplay.
I think maybe she resents that the story was on-line but that is the way a lot of marketing is done these days -- something given away for free results in a lot more sales down the road. I think that's been true for Annie Proulx.
As with other things she's said recently (she wishes she hadn't written it, etc.) I can understand that if she associates it with losing Heath Ledger, I know that must have been hard for her.
As I said above, there is just no way she isn't aware of added sales of her work as a result of BBM. I think she says these things to change the subject. Certainly the interviewer and also the people in the audience asking questions seemed to be very careful about bringing it up at all.
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I think Annie may be upset that the rest of her work gets overshawdowed by Brokeback. I'm sure she is getting the same questions over and over regarding it.
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I think she says these things to change the subject.
Exactly.
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There's a Somewhere in Time fan club?
I like the book better, because it's set in the Hotel del Coronado.
(Where Frank Baum wrote the Wizard of Oz!
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I saw Annie Proulx in Kyle, TX on Friday night. She did a reading at the Katherine Ann Porter Center (the house where KAP grew up, restored) I have a few pics but I'm having trouble getting them posted tonight.
A lot of people showed up -- this is located within easy driving distance of the University of Texas in Austin. I saw one of our forum friends there, Ohiomyown. :)
Annie P. seemed a little more relaxed than she did in the New Yorker panel (see comments above). She read from her memoir, which will be available for purchase in January. She read three selections, it sounds really wonderful and interesting.
One person asked her to comment on her experience at the Academy Awards, and the somewhat bitter piece she wrote about the experience in "The Guardian." She said she really believed Heath Ledger should have won best actor, that he had really pulled the character of DelMar out of his guts. She mentioned how hard it was to lose Heath Ledger.
I asked her about the ending to "Shipping News" -- saying I had just read the book and thought the ending was happy, although I had heard she said it isn't a happy ending. She said -- "It's the illusion of a happy ending." Just because the characters aren't experiencing pain, is that really happy?
(Heck, I'll take it! Illusion or not!)
It was a wonderful night in Kyle, TX.
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Annie Proulx, Pulitzer Prize-winning author of The Shipping News and the short story Brokeback Mountain, celebrated the 10th anniversary of the Katherine Anne Porter Literary Center’s restoration with a public reading and book signing in Kyle. Proulx spoke of the letter she recently received in the mail from a rodeo performer who appreciated Heath Ledger’s attention to detail in the portrayal of Ennis Del Mar in the movie Brokeback Mountain. Proulx addressed the fact that she doesn't like to read fiction unless forced or paid and spoke on familial ties to Wyoming.
JG: Do you care to comment on the article (Annie Proulx: Blood on the red carpet) you wrote about Brokeback Mountain’s Oscar losses?
AP: Before the Academy Awards, I was going to write a piece for the Guardian about the Academy Awards and I expected, and they expected, it was going to be about the gowns. I was very disappointed that Heath Ledger did not receive the much-deserved award and I know that he had pulled the characterization of Ennis Del Mar out of his gut. I think he had called on his gay uncle to help him with a lot of his scenes. I felt very highly of Heath. It was a great tragedy when we lost him.
more...
http://star.txstate.edu/content/qa-annie-proulx (http://star.txstate.edu/content/qa-annie-proulx)
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I made a copy of Proulx's article in the Guardian when it first came out, "Blood on the Red Carpet." It was so Annie Proulx -- I loved it.
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So Annie Proulx is continuing her book tour-- She was in my town (Dallas) Friday night. I went to see her with a couple of non-forum friends. We had to buy tickets! And to my surprise, a very large auditorium was full.
She was very entertaining and feisty, despite saying she had been battling the flu "It has to end sometime" she said.
Someone asked her about her favorite reading. When she was a child, she said, she liked "Mutiny on the Bounty," which had a tan cover, so for a while she would look for all the tan books in the library, and was disappointed in quite a few of them.
Then, she said, she picked out books for their colors -- blue meant books about the ocean, green meant forests and land, red meant human turmoil and warfare, brown meant complication -- and so on.
I think she was pulling our legs.
She was great!
I bought her memoire.
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A very warm review of Bird Cloud by Sydney novelist, Delia Falconer
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/arts/intellectual-property/story-e6frg8nf-1225994300325 (http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/arts/intellectual-property/story-e6frg8nf-1225994300325)
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BIRD CLOUD by Annie Proulx
A review by foreverinawe
Recently, I bought Bird Cloud online, $18 with shipping. It arrived in the morning, and by 9 pm I had finished it. God help me, I'm that way with just about anything that woman writes.
Yesterday, as I was checking email, I got an urge to read some of the online reviews about the book. I guess I wanted to see if others had reactions similar to my own. Maybe there were some subtleties I had missed.
Was I in for a shock.
Nobody panned it and most praised that familiar Proulx vernacular and style. But I did not find one review that understood what her book was about.
Oh, they all got that it was essentially a three-part memoir, her immigrant forebears, the construction of her dream home, and finally a one-year study of the wonderful wildlife surrounding Bird Cloud (but especially one pair of bald eagles, and another pair of golden eagles, who lived on her escarpment.)
Sprinkled here and there she seemed to make small asides into stories about Native Americans, Wyoming scalawags, geology, meteorology, other things. Some reviewers described these as unnecessary distractions. The reviewers missed the point entirely.
What Annie wrote about was the same paradigm that permeates all her writing. People and plants and animals are all the products of the locale that spawns them. It molds and stains them as surely as their genes, and no adult every truly outgrows the locale that informed them. We are all shaped by geography.
She tells about her own family's history, and how their New World environment set the limits of their growth and understanding. She tells about her own early life and how she responded to rural culture and landscape. She tells the same about Utes, Hopi, Crow, Sioux, pioneers and settlers, and the struggles of people to wrest their living from the land around them. All their human impulses, hopes and dreams and the implacable soil and wind and rain and cold that ultimately defined their lives.
Unnecessary distractions? Gimme a break!
Early in her story, when she describes to the reader the beauty of the place she named Bird Cloud, she says, pensively, that she will probably end her days here. But then she adds, reluctantly, "But I'm not sure." Still, she builds her house, hoping for the best.
The three year construction of her dream house -- essentially a gigantic library with a few bedrooms and a nice kitchen -- is itself a study of one person's battle with their environment. The environment this time includes modern building materials, architects, engineers, builders, governmental agencies, and an entire section, 640 acres, of gorgeous Wyoming land, including a mile stretch of the North Platte River and the astonishing 400 foot high plateau that rises abruptly from the far riverbank, which reflects the golden rays of the setting sun, and channels the arctic blasts of winter across her dream house.
Once again, geography informs a life.
When her house is finished she spends her first year mesmerized by the beauty she has found, the place to write without interruption, to glance out her window at those ineffable cliffs, to watch the magnificent eagles. But that winter she learns the betrayed truth. The road on which her winter survival depends becomes impassable in the winter, encrusted by 10 foot drifts; the real estate agent lied to her; the county does not clear it; nobody gets through. Bird Cloud is only a summer home.
The last large section of the book details a year in the lives of the two families of eagles that live up in the cliffs. It is almost a living metaphor for Annie's view of life shaped by geography. From finding a mate, huddling in crags swept by hurricane force arctic winds, scouring for food daily, flying joyous acrobatics in the rarified (euphoric?) air, through nest-building, mating, protecting and raising the chicks, seeing them mature and eventually fly off to independent lives...all shaped by the land, the wind, the elements of earth itself. That is the underlying story Annie is telling us.
Annie appends a two-page post script. When she returns to Bird Cloud the next spring, she finds that one of the bald eagles had disappeared. A bit later she discovers some feathers and a decomposed corpse, and realizes it is the missing eagle. It is directly beneath an electric utility line, supposedly "improved" to make it safer for wildlife. The hand of man has again touched nature.
But a short time later, the remaining bald eagle seems to have found a new mate. Annie writes, "Eagles waste no time on tears." We can all read that message.
Now she has left Bird Cloud; it is For Sale. She can't access it for six months of the year, and the other six months just aren't enough.
For lovers of Brokeback Mountain, the parallels are striking: an inchoate longing for the beauty of life, the unutterable joy of finding it, the heartbreak of losing it.
Annie, I swear.
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That was beautiful and insightful review, Foeverinawe.
Thank you, HT
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I´m in awe of your review, foreverinawe. Can´t wait to read this book.
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Thank you foreverinawe, and thank you tfferg for the link to a positive review.
I haven't read the book yet, but it's on my nightstand. A few acquaintances have sent me some bad reviews, LA Times and I think maybe Time Magazine, and the New Yorker review wasn't good either.
But I told my friends, I look up to Annie Proulx, and when I am in my seventies, if I have enough money from my writing that I can pick a location anywhere I want and build my dream house, and then things don't work out as planned -- I would probably write about it, too.
But as fia says, that's really not the point of the book, as I have always suspected. I'm looking forward to reading it. What I have heard her read from it has not disappointed me at all.
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I thought I had Googled all the reviews about Bird Cloud I could find, then this morning Google pops up with one I had missed: Karen Brady (of the Buffalo, NY News). How nice to read Karen.
And what a splendid caricature of Annie by Adam Zyglis!
Enjoy.
http://www.buffalonews.com/entertainment/books-poetry/book-reviews/article305172.ece (http://www.buffalonews.com/entertainment/books-poetry/book-reviews/article305172.ece)
~~~fia
PS My thanks for your kind words about my review.
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Annie's forthcoming gig in Melbourne is booked out, so no chance of me hearing her in person. >:(
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Maybe you could hang around the stage door! :D
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Is a trip to Sydney out of the question?
http://www.cityrecitalhall.com/events/id/934/Annie-Proulx/ (http://www.cityrecitalhall.com/events/id/934/Annie-Proulx/)
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Annie's forthcoming gig in Melbourne is booked out, so no chance of me hearing her in person. >:(
Oh! I'll be just a few miles away...
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Is a trip to Sydney out of the question?
http://www.cityrecitalhall.com/events/id/934/Annie-Proulx/ (http://www.cityrecitalhall.com/events/id/934/Annie-Proulx/)
Yes. Very expensive.
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Annie's forthcoming gig in Melbourne is booked out, so no chance of me hearing her in person. >:(
I encourage you to show up. Sometimes an extra ticket can be found, room for one more, or someone just won't be able to make it.
If you have the time, it may be well worth it.
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Western United Realty, Annie's realtor, posted this today (Wed, Feb 23):
http://www.ranchbrokers.com/sheep-rock-ranch.html (http://www.ranchbrokers.com/sheep-rock-ranch.html)
In large red letters, it says SOLD!
It's confusing, because while the heading of the announcement says the "Sheep Rock ranch,"
the text says 640 acres, with one mile of the North Platte River and the towering cliffs of Sheep Rock
on the property. Hey, that describes Bird Cloud exactly!
Western United are also the realtors for the adjacent Sheep Rock Ranch, 2,777 acres, $12 million. And
they have a separate (but adjacent) listing for it. Maybe their website manager got a bit confused.
Here's a map showing both ranches:
http://www.ranchbrokers.com/images/stories/pdf/maps/sheep-rock-bird-cloud.pdf (http://www.ranchbrokers.com/images/stories/pdf/maps/sheep-rock-bird-cloud.pdf)
BC's asking price was $3.7m. You know how it is with asking prices, but I'll bet she got most of it.
I sure hope so.
~~~fia
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At least not yet.
I called the realtor to ask for a clarification about which property the SOLD sign applied to, and was told that neither property has been sold, that there had been a slight internet posting confusion,
BUT BIRD CLOUD HAS BEEN TAKEN OFF THE MARKET!
Now I lay me down to sleep
I pray the Lord my wish to keep
Please help her find another way
To live at Bird Cloud every day.
I ain't jokin...
~~~fia
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At least not yet.
I called the realtor to ask for a clarification about which property the SOLD sign applied to, and was told that neither property has been sold, that there had been a slight internet posting confusion,
BUT BIRD CLOUD HAS BEEN TAKEN OFF THE MARKET!
Now I lay me down to sleep
I pray the Lord my wish to keep
Please help her find another way
To live at Bird Cloud every day.
I ain't jokin...
~~~fia
Interesting...
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thanks for the update
:)
Annie had said (at the Dallas reading on January 28) that the property wasn't up for sale currently, so the previous post surprised me. But heck if a buyer showed up, she might sell it.
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If A.P. and the others involved in the film are so set on disassociating themselves with the film I see no reason to keep supporting them.
The "Beyond Brokeback" event in L.A. will probably be the last event I get involved with.
Next time I buy a classic movie on DVD it'll be something like "Somewhere In Time", a film that has seen tremendous support from everyone involved. The fans of that film have had annniversary screenings where Jane Seymour and Christopher Reeve have attended, and Universal has always supported the fan club. They seem to be proud of this movie.
I've felt about the same way; AP's attitude toward Brokeback fans leaves a very sour aftertaste. Unfortunately, there aren't many BBM events I've been able to attend; so in the future I'll attend all I can. But I can't see going to any trouble to see or hear Annie Proulx, which is apparently what she wants.
Somewhere In Time is one of my favorite movies, though I've never been active in the fan club. The down side of that is that they don't seem to have much central organization so it's some extra trouble to find out anything about them. The Grand Hotel is certainly a spectacular setting for any kind of fandom's events.
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In fairness to Annie Proulx, whom I agree seems to have a "low startle point", we aren't privy to the kinds of comments and mail (and maybe threats) she's been receiving since the movie came out. She is soon to be in Perth for a book event. I'll bet anything she pays her respects before Heath's ashes.
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No we're not, but apparently at least a few of us can see patterns in her statements. And in fairness to other authors, anyone who's attracted attention via a creative work they've produced gets feedback and it isn't always positive and/or intelligent. The reactions vary.
"Low startle point" can be added to the pantheon along with "cantankerous", "outspoken," "prickly", "crusty" and "feisty." ::)
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"Low startle point" can be added to the pantheon along with "cantankerous", "outspoken," "prickly", and "feisty." ::)
How about 'just damned tired of it all'? LOL
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May I quote Annie Proulx from Bird Cloud (pg 5, hardcover edition):
"Well do I know my own character negatives---bossy, impatient, reclusively shy, sort-tempered, single-minded. The good parts are harder to see, but I suppose a fair dose of sympathy, even compassion is there, a by-product of the writer's imagination. I can and do put myself in others' shoes constantly. Observational skills, quick decisions (not a few bad ones), and a tendency to overreach, to stretch comprehension and try difficult things are part of who I am. ..."
I have never met Annie, doubt that I ever will. So I admit that I don't know first-hand how accurate her assessment is, but I have read a lot of her written interviews, watched a lot of her video interviews, read articles about her. Her quoted assessment seems consistent with them, so I accept it, knowing full well that we all are reluctant to talk about our own flaws.
* Frankly, it seems odd to me that anyone one would disparage her unless they were privy to some unpublicized shortcoming. I know she publicly despaired of strangers sending her their "happy ending" re-writes of BBM, but she felt she was writing about the devastation of rural homophobia. That means a suggested "re-write" demonstrates that she failed to make her purpose clear to her reader.
To her, that's a slap in the face. It's saying she didn't write her story right. I'm not a writer, but I can certainly see where that would be offensive.
* It's common knowledge, but when a writer contracts with a publisher, there is a contractual commitment to help publicize any resulting book. Depending on the celebrity of the author, it may involve written interviews, TV interviews and even national tours to speak at writers forums. For Pulitzer prize winners, the engagements may be worldwide.
Certainly the effort is undertaken for the purpose of publicizing the book, but while the author ultimately gets more money because of greater sales, it is the publisher that gets the lion's share.
Annie has said on many occasions she doesn't like to do this. She is, very simply, a private person, and she hates being put on display. But I think she tries to make the best of it, and she obviously enjoys travel.
* Annie has had her share of ups and downs. Three marriages, three divorces, four kids mostly raised on her own slender earnings in rural New England, the late blossoming of literary success and the harsh celebrity that comes with it... She will be 76 in August, wants little more than to be allowed to live and write in a beautiful, isolated part of the American West.
Oh yes, she's an environmentalist, a witness to our nation's inhumanity to native peoples, disgusted by the dark comedy of our "representative" government (read representatives of the corporations). She recognizes bigotry and exposes it. Unlike most of us, she has a voice that can be heard, and she uses it. How much better off all of us would be to be like her.
~~~fia
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How about 'just damned tired of it all'? LOL
LOL, that too!
Privacy in her personal life certainly should be respected but anyone's public statements are open to interpretation and criticism. And for the record, none of us have any obligation to 'be like her.' Even for the most dedicated fandom, that's a bit over the top.
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I have never met Annie, doubt that I ever will. So I admit that I don't know first-hand how accurate her assessment is, but I have read a lot of her written interviews, watched a lot of her video interviews, read articles about her. Her quoted assessment seems consistent with them, so I accept it, knowing full well that we all are reluctant to talk about our own flaws.
I have met Annie, and it was a pleasure.
Granted, I had very little "one-on-one" time with her, I met her at a book signing the day after one of her readings in NYC. At the reading the night prior, she was very polite, and answered all questions given to her on a variety of topics, Brokeback included.
I attended the book signing the next day, and I had my copy of "Bad Dirt" for her to sign, as well as my short story of Brokeback. As she signed the books, I told her I enjoyed hearing her read the night before, she looked at me, smiled and thanked me for attending. I asked her about the story, as I didn't recognize it. She went on to tell me it was called "The Sagebrush Kid" and was from her (then) soon-to-be released collection "Fine Just the Way It Is". I told her I looked forward to reading it, and again she smiled and thanked me for coming to the reading and signing.
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When I saw her last month at the reading (Dallas Museum of Art) she explained when she first came out that she had been battling the flu-- then said "It has to end sometime." And then she spoke, read and answered questions for the next hour -- and after that signed books for a very long line of fans.
I often think how hard it would be for me (twenty years younger than she is) to make so many public appearances, and to travel so relentlessly.
So, for a naturally reclusive and private person, who generally suffers no fools, I think she puts up with all of these book tours pretty well-- and on top of that add her age.
Why are we interested in any artists, generally? Why is there a fandom at all?
I don't want to be like Annie Proulx, necessarily-- or Woody Allen, or any member of The Band (a few examples of other artists admire) but I do want to understand how a person creates their art. Or, what is the person like, who created that amazing art?
In the case of Annie Proulx, it still blows me away that a woman in her sixties, who did not grow up on a Wyoming Ranch, and who had not ever been a gay man at any time in her life, managed to write the story of Ennis and Jack, and bring them to life so accurately and profoundly. So I am in awe of Annie Proulx.
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Book of the week being serialised on Radio 4 FM @ 9.45am UK....Annie Proulx "Bird Cloud"
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Annie Proulx: Choice Words on Film Adaptations of Book
http://fora.tv/2010/10/01/Living_History#Annie_Proulx_Choice_Words_on_Film_Adaptations_of_Books (http://fora.tv/2010/10/01/Living_History#Annie_Proulx_Choice_Words_on_Film_Adaptations_of_Books)
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Book of the week being serialised on Radio 4 FM @ 9.45am UK....Annie Proulx "Bird Cloud"
wow, that is really cool to know they are doing this in the UK!
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LET'S get this straight: Annie Proulx is not the wealthy outsider that some reviewers of her memoir Bird Cloud think she is, criticising her finicky attitude to the trials of building her dream house.
''What horseshit!'' she says, steely-eyed. ''That house took my last penny. I live in rather straitened circumstances.''
You might assume Proulx got rich from the Hollywood adaptations of her award-winning novel The Shipping News and her short story Brokeback Mountain. The 2005 film Brokeback Mountain, with Heath Ledger and Jake Gyllenhaal as gay cowboys, grossed $178 million worldwide and won three Academy Awards.
Proulx liked the film and was glad the producers agreed to keep her dialogue, despite a desire for ''everyone to speak like television announcers''.
But she says: ''I didn't make much from that. The payment for the rights to the story was in two parts; they paid the first and they didn't pay the second. Hollywood accounting is infamous; it happens to writers all the time.'' She recalls being paid about $300,000 but says the studio knew she would have to spend as much in legal fees as she would retrieve by fighting for the rest.
http://www.smh.com.au/entertainment/books/this-is-the-house-that-annie-built-20110304-1bhva.html (http://www.smh.com.au/entertainment/books/this-is-the-house-that-annie-built-20110304-1bhva.html)
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http://www.smh.com.au/entertainment/books/this-is-the-house-that-annie-built-20110304-1bhva.html (http://www.smh.com.au/entertainment/books/this-is-the-house-that-annie-built-20110304-1bhva.html)
John, many thanks for your link to the Sydney Morning Herald. This was my first encounter with that newspaper, and I am highly impressed. They actually have reviewers who can read and write.
I was curious, so I googled "Sydney au newspapers". The very first hit was the SMH, and it popped up an option to name what subject I wanted in the SMH, so I entered Annie Proulx.
(https://ultimatebrokebackforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi673.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fvv93%2Ftinytruck%2FSydneyMorningHerald1.jpg&hash=4f3327c60e89fcbb100a7d09161da4129e577956)
The result was a gold mine of thoughtful reviews and articles about Annie and her books. I'm still reading through them, but I felt obliged to report what I had discovered to the forum. Here's a clip from the first page (there are many pages) of SMH's articles:
(https://ultimatebrokebackforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi673.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fvv93%2Ftinytruck%2FSydneyMorningHerald2.jpg&hash=2fb2b342cb0892c621b0b8c188b6590ab3a752e8)
There are a few articles where Annie is only mentioned peripherally, but that's normal for online searches.
~~~fia
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LET'S get this straight: Annie Proulx is not the wealthy outsider that some reviewers of her memoir Bird Cloud think she is, criticising her finicky attitude to the trials of building her dream house.
''What horseshit!'' she says, steely-eyed. ''That house took my last penny. I live in rather straitened circumstances.''
I'm sure people all over the US who are facing foreclosure will just drown in their own tears over this.
But how does someone say something "steely-eyed"? Does AP have talking eyes?
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heavens to betsy!
Talking eyes and "steely-eyed" are metaphors, of which concept I am completely sure Ms. Innavera is a master! Because you ARE a master in all things literature.
I think we know how you feel about Annie Proulx. For more enlightenment, why not read Bird Cloud? And then why not come back here and give us your review?
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heavens to betsy!
Talking eyes and "steely-eyed" are metaphors, of which concept I am completely sure Ms. Innavera is a master! Because you ARE a master in all things literature.
I think we know how you feel about Annie Proulx. For more enlightenment, why not read Bird Cloud? And then why not come back here and give us your review?
"heavens to Betsy"? ?
So are personal attacks on Forum members acceptable if they don't worship at the AP shrine? Maybe you should post a list of other exceptions, if there are any.
I think we know how you feel about Annie Proulx.
We know how just about everyone here feels about Annie Proulx; does that mean we should all just shut up? Or does that apply only to people who don't gush about her enough?
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My post was not meant as a personal attack, nor was it sarcastic. Please take it at face value. I do honor your skills in literary arts.
As for our feelings about Annie Proulx, this is a fan-forum, so yes it's more likely the people participating here are going to be fans of Annie Proulx.
And naturally, you can dissent.
Your posts are meant to provoke some reaction, I think -- and you know you're posting among people who are fans.
Once you've made your point, repetition doesn't seem to be on topic in a fan thread.
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Friends!
We are all at this campfire. Watch the whisky! Make sure the sticks hit the fire. I ain't been perfect but I sure am glad to have found you all as companions... "where none had been expected" a few years ago. You've kept me "pawing the white out of the moon" many a night on the laptop.
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If the Bird Cloud saga interests you, here's an update.
I spoke with the realtor in Wyoming again today, and after a bit of Internet tag, we finally discovered why his company was still displaying the ad that said Bird Cloud had been sold -- it was their old ad from six years ago, before Annie bought the property. The SOLD sign was added after Annie had bought the property, back in 2005.
They had simply never gotten around to taking down the ad!
There is still a Facebook ad, but the realtor says it is not his, even though it has his company's name on it. Go figure.
He also allowed that it was taken off the market because of the current depressed real estate values. But he allowed that if someone wanted to offer $3.7m, it might get back in the market quickly. He also added that she won't sell to anyone who wants to raise cattle on it.
At any rate, I thought you might like a glimpse of her house. On the left is her geodesic dome greenhouse.
~fia
(https://ultimatebrokebackforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi673.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fvv93%2Ftinytruck%2FAnniesHouse.jpg&hash=feb17d8e1df3122892818522df751a5ab9b749e8)
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Have just discovered that Annie Prouix is in Dunedin and gave a talk at the Public Library last night. There apparently was an article in Saturday's paper but as I was away on a camp, I asked my neighbours to take the paper. However even then the talk was booked out.
http://www.odt.co.nz/news/dunedin/152331/teller-cold-land-tales-warms-audience
Last Saturday's article is at
http://www.odt.co.nz/entertainment/books/151364/house-proulx-built
Probably lifted (legally) from elsewhere as Dunedin is only a city of 130,000.
The Otago Daily Times is good but not the level of the Sydney Morning Herald in a city of 4 million.
Glad you like that excellent paper Foreverinawe. I now have to read it online after a lifetime of picking it up off the front lawn
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Have just discovered that Annie Prouix is in Dunedin and gave a talk at the Public Library last night.
....
Glad you like that excellent paper Foreverinawe. I now have to read it online after a lifetime of picking it up off the front lawn
Hi Brian,
Thanks for the articles, I enjoyed reading them.
I've been reading the NY Times online for many years, but yesterday they announced they were going to begin charging me a fee to do that. I like their editorial policy in general (yes, I am liberal), and I hate to forego it, but I may have to. Their news stories have always been good, but my ISP gives me worldwide, national, regional and local news updates hourly, often with videos, and it is far more extensive than the NYT.
Oh well, things change.
~~~fia
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this was on the BBM General Discussion thread
http://bbmfoundation.org/images/Artifacts%20of%20Love%20and%20Violence%20-%20Hinton.pdf (http://bbmfoundation.org/images/Artifacts%20of%20Love%20and%20Violence%20-%20Hinton.pdf)
and included this:
Ennis del Mar and Jack Twist are fictional characters,
not real cowboys. Some have argued that they aren’t really
even fictional cowboys. Of note, in the aftermath of fans’
intrusions (who have written and rewritten variations of
her original story as prequels, sequels, screenplays, ballets,
and operas), author Annie Proulx has stated, along with
charges of violation of her intellectual property, that she
wishes she had never written “Brokeback Mountain.”“The story,” she says, “was about homophobia in a place”
(L.A. Times, October 18, 2008). But she may just have
been having a bad day.
Bold is mine, and that is why I despise Brokeback slash...while at the same time feeling driven to write it, albeit without porny sex, or descriptions of sex, I'm frankly surprised anyone at all reads it...and I'm trying to quit...
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^^^^
ah, you wish you knew how to quit slash?
;D
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ha!
right, I'm looking for a 12-step...
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You'd better not quit writing Slash, Nancy, I'd miss your work. ;D
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Places, not people, inspire author to write
Top-selling author Annie Proulx has revealed a future work could be partly set in New Zealand – and she is actively researching while in the country on a book tour.
The Shipping News author, who also wrote the story that inspired the movie Brokeback Mountain, let the detail slip to a sellout audience of about 260 at The Dominion Post's Write Stuff event yesterday. The storyline could feature the issue of the sale of kauri trees, but she would not divulge any more details.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/entertainment/books/4790188/Places-not-people-inspire-author-to-write#share (http://www.stuff.co.nz/entertainment/books/4790188/Places-not-people-inspire-author-to-write#share)
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Friends!
We are all at this campfire. Watch the whisky! Make sure the sticks hit the fire. I ain't been perfect but I sure am glad to have found you all as companions... "where none had been expected" a few years ago. You've kept me "pawing the white out of the moon" many a night on the laptop.
HEY! I thought that whiskey was on shares up here!?! What gives? Pass the bottle, take your turn, all the stars are in the sky.
<insert little winky smiley face here>
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Annie Proulx gives a talk on "Bird Cloud" in Dunedin, New Zealand. Let's hope they also post the clip of her answering questions afterwards!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ReirgP5i1nY
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Here's a wonderful interview (:40+ minutes) of Annie when she visited Melbourne
http://wheelercentre.com/videos/video/annie-proulx/ (http://wheelercentre.com/videos/video/annie-proulx/)
~~~fia
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Hiya Prouxl fans!
;D
Just wanted to let you know that I started a new "Topic of The Week" and it is about Annie Proulx and which of her short stories do you feel would make a good movie.
If you think this is a topic that would interest you, feel free to join the conversation!
http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=43041.msg2109517#msg2109517
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Hey AP fans, when I visited New York last week I went to the New York Public Library -- they have a display celebrating their 100 year anniversary, and it turns out they have a collection of some journals and papers of Annie Proulx's. I took this photo with my iphone.
(https://ultimatebrokebackforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi73.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fi216%2Fellenclaire_photos%2Fanniepjournal.jpg&hash=cc02ad88bd12927a5cadae5d112675deac57d6a3)
I was reading Bird Cloud last week, so it was doubly exciting.
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Elllen, the drawings/sketches? in the book look lovely -- who did those?
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Elllen, the drawings/sketches? in the book look lovely -- who did those?
I'm sure they are Annie Proulx's -- I've read in interviews that she paints from time to time, to get a feel for the scenery (phrases like: "the water was the color of tea") At the bottom of this one I think she wrote: "into the gloom."
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Correspondence, Early Book Drafts, Notebooks, Sketches for The Shipping News, Brokeback Mountain and Other Works Now Available to Researchers in The Henry W. and Albert A. Berg Collection of English and American Literature
“I am, of course, very pleased that my notes, manuscript, sketches, letters and photographs have gone to the Berg Collection of The New York Public Library,” said Ms. Proulx. “What writer would not be honored to be in the company of Walt Whitman, Mark Twain, Thoreau, Saul Bellow, Nabokov, Jack Kerouac, Virginia Woolfe, Marianne Moore, Paul Auster and W. H. Auden? To me there is an odd sense of balance that material dealing with some of the most rural landscapes in North America will reside in our major city. Aside from the pages directly related to my writing, the letters, emails, financial reports to and from agents, publishers, editors and translators may be useful to future historians and scholars examining this period in American publishing and literature. We are currently undergoing major changes in the way we regard intellectual property and literary work; some of anxieties of that metamorphosis are reflected in my archive.”
The collection includes an early notebook (1987-89) of draft ideas for Proulx’s first novel, Postcards, which won a Pen-Faulkner Award for Fiction. Her most famous novel, the Pulitzer Prize-winning The Shipping News, is represented by 3,662 pages of typescript, many with holograph revision and correction, along with screenplay adaptation pages and correspondence. A 1993 typescript bears heavy holograph revisions in purple ink. Early drafts (1994) of the novel Accordion Crimes total about 1,000 pages.
A notebook containing original manuscript ideas for Proulx’s short story “Brokeback Mountain” is included in the collection, along with 21 typescripts under a variety of working titles including “Bulldust Mountain,” “Whiskey Mountain,” and “Swill-Swallow Mountain.” Three corrected typescript drafts of Larry McMurtry and Diana Ossana’s screenplay adaption of the story are included, along with legal documentation and clippings.
http://www.nypl.org/press/releases/?article_id=353 (http://www.nypl.org/press/releases/?article_id=353)
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A notebook containing original manuscript ideas for Proulx’s short story “Brokeback Mountain” is included in the collection, along with 21 typescripts under a variety of working titles including “Bulldust Mountain,” “Whiskey Mountain,” and “Swill-Swallow Mountain.” Three corrected typescript drafts of Larry McMurtry and Diana Ossana’s screenplay adaption of the story are included, along with legal documentation and clippings.
Oboyoboyoboyo! Wouldn't I like to see that material?!?!?
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Hello, book friends,
Sad news about our good friend Dal, who posted in the book threads so often and participated in our book clubs.
He passed away today after a long illness. A thread is dedicated to him here:
http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=43379.msg2138645#new
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Annie Proulx will be appearing in Portland this Thursday.
The literary arts society sponsors a series each year and she is the first this time around.
I am told single tickets are available at the door. Plan to go. Have a question or two for her.
Here's one: Miss Proulx, The Laramie Project, a play based on the murder of Matthew Shepard, has become a formidable vehicle against Gay bashing and hatred. Given that Brokeback Mountain changed many lives, brought resolution to long lost loves including my own, could you bless a stage version that could be performed in colleges and by local theater groups?
Thank you.
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Given that Brokeback Mountain changed many lives, brought resolution to long lost loves including my own, could you bless a stage version that could be performed in colleges and by local theater groups?
I hope she says yes, but I wonder who would want to tackle the script.
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Ok, I'm waiting...
What did she say? ;D
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Tonight, Annie Proulx led off the 2011-22012 season of Portland's Arts & Lectures to a sold out house of over 2500.
In a relaxed and twinkling mood, she spoke for an hour about herself and her writing with an understandable emphasis on a new work under way whose theme is world-wide forest degradation. The loss of chestnuts, elms, butternuts, etc.. Then the microphones were opened up for questioning.
I was the first to step forward: "Ms. Proulx," I said, "The Laramie Project, the play based on the murder of Mathew Shepard, has become a formidable vehicle against Gay bashing and hatred. I know you have said, unlike Charles Dickens, story telling trumps social issues, but given that Brokeback Mountain changed many lives, brought resolution to long lost love, would you bless a stage version that could be performed in rural colleges and by local theater groups? If not, why not?"
With a big smile, she said at the moment no one except some Finns are interested. She looked at me. "If you are in theater, perhaps you can take on Brokeback Mountain!" She then went on to recall seeing the Laramie Project in the town of Laramie and the reaction of the local people. After the program I caught her exiting the stage door. I gave her a post card from Hamley's Saddle Store. "In honor Ennis Del Mar," I said. "Why I didn't know Hamleys was still around," she said grinning like the cheshire cat. "Sure are", I said. "Over in Pendleton. Love Brokeback Mountain," I said. "Like to leave copies in motels on top of the Gideon Bibles!" We shook hands and she was off.
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get it in writing.
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It sounds like she's open to the idea because of the way you presented it.
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She sure had a cowpoke's handshake!
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So... handshake sealed the deal??
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This is showing up on Google searches for Annie Proulx, so you need to move quickly.
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Great news. Diana Ossana just responded on Facebook to my account about last night: "Hmmm....maybe she's had a change of heart....thanks, Larry! I will definitely look into this."
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Tue, Oct 25, 8:00 pm - 9:00 pm
It's a new season of Portland Arts and Lectures, a series of conversations with notable writers, presented by Literary Arts. Tonight's guest is Pulitzer Prize-winning author Annie Proulx.
http://www.opb.org/radio/programs/portland-arts-and-lectures/ (http://www.opb.org/radio/programs/portland-arts-and-lectures/)
Live stream: http://www.opb.org/programs/streams/ (http://www.opb.org/programs/streams/)
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An interesting excerpt of an interview with Annie Proulx in Melbourne, Australia where she talks about Brokeback Mountain. Apologies in advance if this has already been posted here. The interview was conducted in March 2011.
I like Ms Proulx's no nonsense approach to life and would love to meet her!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VpCaQSRwdd0
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So isn't it just amazing that Annie Proulx is the librettist of the Brokeback Mountain opera that will be performed in Vancouver and also in Spain?
In English, I presume -- she has stated that she didn't want anyone else to do the libretto, and that she wants the opera to avoid the sentimentality of the film.
What an amazing turn for her career, it must be very gratifying.
http://cityoperavancouver.com/brokeback-mountain/annie-proulx
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Practically perfect people never permit sentiment to muddle their thinking.
-- Mary Poppins
Even Mary had a "moment."
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Annie Proulx sat down to talk with James Xiao in 2011, Sycamore Review’s fiction editor at the time, before a live audience at Purdue University. You can click on the following link to listen to audio clips from the conversation:
http://www.sycamorereview.com/2011/02/interview-with-annie-proulx/
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I've never read any of Proulx's works, much less " Brokeback Mountain". I have heard she is an exceptional writer. I hope the opera that she has given permission to will be feature-length. Two hours maybe. Perhaps, they could add some new material to tell some other details that were not given as much attention in the film. I hope the opera becomes a huge success in Spain and hopefully throughout the world.
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Why not try the short story? :)
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Someday, I may.
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Even though I have read none of her literature. I'm sure nothing would come close to BBM. Ir won a Pulitzer Prize right?
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She didn't win the Pulitzer for Brokeback
1998—"Brokeback Mountain" National Magazine Award
1998—"Brokeback Mountain" inc. O. Henry Awards Prize Stories 1998
but she did for Shipping News, which I couldn't finish...
1994—Pulitzer Prize, Fiction (The Shipping News)
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Wasn't sure where to put this:
I wish I’d never written the story. It’s just been the cause of hassle and problems and irritation since the film came out. Before the film it was all right… In Wyoming they won’t read it. A large section of the population is still outraged. But that’s not where the problem was. I’m used to that response from people here, who generally do not like the way I write. But the problem has come since the film. So many people have completely misunderstood the story. I think it’s important to leave spaces in a story for readers to fill in from their own experience, but unfortunately the audience that Brokeback reached most strongly have powerful fantasy lives. And one of the reasons we keep the gates locked here is that a lot of men have decided that the story should have had a happy ending. They can’t bear the way it ends — they just can’t stand it. So they rewrite the story, including all kinds of boyfriends and new lovers and so forth after Jack is killed. And it just drives me wild. They can’t understand that the story isn’t about Jack and Ennis. It’s about homophobia; it’s about a social situation; it’s about a place and a particular mindset and morality. They just don’t get it. I can’t tell you how many of these things have been sent to me as though they’re expecting me to say, ‘Oh great, if only I’d had the sense to write it that way.’ And they all begin the same way — I’m not gay, but?.?.?.?The implication is that because they’re men they understand much better than I how these people would have behaved. And maybe they do. But that’s not the story I wrote. Those are not their characters. The characters belong to me by law.”
— Author Annie Proulx explaining to Paris Review the negative response from some readers to the ending of her short story Brokeback Mountain that was adapted into the Academy Award-winning 2005 film
http://www.theparisreview.org/interviews/5901/the-art-of-fiction-no-199-annie-proulx
http://www.queerty.com/brokeback-mountain-author-wishes-shed-never-written-the-story-20141228
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This interview is from 2009, and she has said this several times since. Somebody just noticed this (again) and linked to it and it went viral as if it were news.
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This interview is from 2009, and she has said this several times since. Somebody just noticed this (again) and linked to it and it went viral as if it were news.
Well that would explain why no one replied! :D Thank you for replying, I hadn't seen this before and the article didn't have a date, but the responses were from this month, days ago... so I wasn't sure.
Not sure why she is so upset, I think we do this with many movies/screenplays, it is kind of human nature i would think!
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Dear Miss Proulx
I am a fan of your short story, Brokeback Mountain, and have no desire to change the ending nor indeed any words at all. Thank you for creating such a tremendous and enduring piece of art.
Yours sincerely
H4E
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Dear Mr H4E
Thank you! You are all I could ask for in a reader.
Yours sincerely
Annie Proulx
PS I am sending you a signed copy of the first edition.
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LOL!
__________
It is my opinion that just because people have reacted to the story the way she wrote it
doesn't mean they wish to change it, I've never heard anyone say that. Has anyone else?
People might want to envision happier things for the boys, but I think it's human nature to
want to provide hope where there seemingly is none.
If Annie doesn't like that, she is hope-less!
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Dear Mr H4E
Thank you! You are all I could ask for in a reader.
Yours sincerely
Annie Proulx
PS I am sending you a signed copy of the first edition.
Aha! So that is you! I thought so. That wig and faux British accent weren't fooling anyone and least of all me.
Looking forward to receiving the book.
By the way, please don't be so formal. You can call me "H".
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:D
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I looked for this but couldn't find it. Thanks for the link Chuck.
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Cross posted from Ennis and Jack Relationship II (http://Ennis and Jack Relationship II)
from: fofol on Yesterday at 02:29:53 PM
To better understand AP's process, I've been trying to write a short story. I have done nothing else for maybe too many obsessed months, but since my last post, I've had a character explaining to another why Brokeback isn't about as much about gay sex as it seems, and it may be only causally about gay love. The 'straight' character in my story asks to see the film; the gay character has some explanation for him before the screening:
The straight guy asks, "Do they actually do it?" The gay man replies: "Well, it looks a lot like it, but, no, the actors don't 'do it:' it is an 'R' rated movie, not pornography. It is deeply personal though, and both men are dedicated actors, so there is one scene where they do give the impression that they're frantically getting down to it, creating something that looks very close to real, apart from an unlikely detail or two. The movie is still educational, but not in the mechanics of two guys doing it." "Well, if it's not an instructional, what does 'educational mean?"
"The story actively demonstrates the crippling effects of homophobia, external and internalized, on true love by illuminating a relationship as two young men become unpredictably, staggeringly passionate for one another. The story follows their lives over twenty years as the homophobic world grinds them down: their epic love becomes a horrifying and horrifyingly unsettled tragedy written large - the survivor is denied the benefit of any proof around the death of his true love. The director and the lead actors are so true to life that some fans identify these characters as real people frustrated in love by their world, that their sympathy for the boys who are kept from their own love's freest and arguably best sexpression by their histories as well as by their environments strikes the deepest chords within. Some of these viewers get swept up in the love and doom that the sting of love deprived hits their sympathy so strongly that their own emotions upstage the described effects of negative familial and social influences, maybe especially as these influences are slowly revealed, as they become historically revealed to the characters, subtly yet with life-crushing persisitence. The film shows one of the leads as a nine-year-old whose father forces his sons to go to a ditch to show them the discarded carcass of a tough old neighbor, a man the kids had known, after he'd been brutally murdered: among other outrages, he'd been dragged by a pickup truck, his penis tied to the truck by a rope and ripped out.
So, maybe AP's saying that the love story is the only the vehicle for describing homophobic outrages. That would make 'happy endings' an apparent misunderstanding of six months of labor. That could be annoying. Peace.
That is a very perceptive post, Mike, and I think hits the nail on the head.
The story was about homophobia, and AP thinks we didn't get it. Actually we "got it" only too well and saw either our own experiences mirrored there, or in the case of the heterosexual members here, were shown the awful suffering that had been inflicted unwittingly in our name.
It was like a dagger to the heart, and even years later we are changed and upset by it.
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Thanks for what you've said, Mike and Jess :).
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Cross posted from Ennis and Jack Relationship II (http://Ennis and Jack Relationship II)
That is a very perceptive post, Mike, and I think hits the nail on the head.
The story was about homophobia, and AP thinks we didn't get it. Actually we "got it" only too well and saw either our own experiences mirrored there, or in the case of the heterosexual members here, were shown the awful suffering that had been inflicted unwittingly in our name.
It was like a dagger to the heart, and even years later we are changed and upset by it.
Yep.
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Annie Proulx Revisits William Golding’s Rites of Passage
By Annie Proulx - 06/17/2022
William Golding had a fantastic imaginative ability that allowed him into humanity’s more unsavory byways; his vast reading aided a remarkable ear for language that let him hit the clear, perfect notes to express what he found there.
In Rites of Passage he looped through the period’s floridly evasive literary style with such brio that the writing must have been play. Yet probably few readers understand the kind of stress that results from sustained intense use of the imagination. Golding was not an easy writer nor an easy man. No more was he a model human—he was a drinker and a difficult personality as well as an extraordinarily good writer; not incompatible traits as a scan of literary figures proves. But his imagination was powerful and terrible and personal. It could belong to no one else and it made him a significant voice in twentieth century literature.
Rites is the opening novel of a maritime triad and is one of Golding’s major works. It is set in the period near the end of the Napoleonic Wars. The action takes place on a fateful voyage to Australia during which the crew and passengers learn extraordinary things about each other and themselves. The three volumes were written over the course of the 1980s, and the voyage, which in the novel takes months, must have seemed to the reader who absorbed each of the books to have wallowed south for years.
The previous decade saw another important British novel presented in multiple volumes—Paul Scott’s Raj Quartet, written between 1966 and 1975. Scott’s quartet may subliminally have illustrated the possibilities of the multiple-volume form to Golding, especially one in which the central driving action was a sexual incident that twisted the lives of all the characters.
https://lithub.com/annie-proulx-revisits-william-goldings-rites-of-passage/
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(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52302531629_36c015b288_o.jpg)
Pulitzer winner Proulx (Barkskins) sounds the alarm on the place of Earth’s wetlands in the climate crisis in this stunning account. In an attempt to “understand some of what has disappeared,” Proulx lays out how “the history of wetlands is the history of their destruction.” They’ve largely been drained for agricultural and housing purposes, she writes, and continuing that trend risks calamity, as wetlands’ peat layers contain huge quantities of methane and carbon dioxide that will be released if they’re destroyed. Her dire warnings are leavened with glimpses of potential hope, but the bigger picture is bleak: “The world needs the great swamps we have drained away and the few that still exist but the human impetus to develop and drain continues,” she writes. Proulx’s prose is, as ever, stunning—in bogs, “black pools of still water in the undulating sphagnum moss can seem to be sinkholes into the underworld,” and the Earth’s peatlands “resemble a book of wallpaper samples, each with its own design and character—some little more than water and reeds, others luxuriously diverse landscapes of colors we urban moderns never knew existed.” This resonant ode to a planet in peril is tough to forget.
Esquire magazine has included Fen, Bog & Swamp on their list of Best Books of Fall of 2022.
Fen, Bog, & Swamp (https://www.publishersweekly.com/9781982173357)
Best Books of Fall of 2022 (https://www.esquire.com/entertainment/books/g40932751/best-books-fall-2022/)
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That's interesting Chuck! She actually started out writing non-fiction articles for magazines.
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That's interesting Chuck! She actually started out writing non-fiction articles for magazines.
The book would explain why The New Yorker recently ran an article by her about wetlands. I think I remember it was about swamps, specifically.
The magazine does things like that, runs articles or short fiction, and sooner or later there is a book.
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One of the stories from today's TDS, a 4 minute review of "That Old Ace In The Hole" by Annie Proulx.
https://www.hppr.org/2022-09-09/beauty-survival-food-and-dialect
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Annie Proulx and the Gift of “Brokeback Mountain”
By Innocent Chizaram Ilo - October 13, 2022
On October 13th, 1997—exactly twenty-five years ago—The New Yorker published Brokeback Mountain, a short story by Pulitzer-winning writer Annie Proulx. “Brokeback Mountain” is a bittersweet love story about two cowboys; Jack Twist and Ennis del Mar. The story dutifully follows Jack and Ennis’s twenty-year relationship from when it blossomed during a ranching gig in 1963 at the fictional “Brokeback Mountain” range, to the duo reconnecting after four years with both men now married to women. Jack is married to “a cute little old Texas girl down in Childress” called Lureen and Ennis to Alma Beers. From there, we follow them through Ennis’s divorce and separation from his kids, down to the “fishing trips” that took them back to Brokeback Mountain, and finally to Jack’s death.
Annie Proulx’s mastery of American rural life shines through in “Brokeback Mountain”; the breathtaking mountain ranges, the undulating plains of Wyoming, and the ruggedness of American cowboy life leap off the pages. Most importantly, she introduced us to one of the most exquisitely written characters in literature: Jack Twist and Ennis del Mar.
The reader is first impressed by the similarities of the star-crossed lovers. Both Jack and Ennis “were raised on small, poor ranches in opposite corners of the state” and grew up to become roughened ranch hands in a culture where men are not encouraged to be vulnerable to each other, especially not in a romantic way. As the story progresses, we begin to see the parallels between the two. Ennis is reserved, less daring, scared, more grounded in reality. This manifests in his declaration that “there’s no reins” to their love affair and how it “scares the piss” out of him, his constant cold feet around having their “fishing trips” more frequently, and his dismissal of Jack’s plans for them to be together. Jack, on the other hand, is the dreamer who constantly lays out plans of him and Ennis living together in a ranch they’d own together. He’s also unashamed of wanting more, and constantly makes this known to Ennis. “How much is once in a while,” Jack asks. “Once in a while every four fuckin years?” For him, it’s not enough: “I can’t make it on a couple a’ high-altitude fucks once or twice a year.”
https://www.intomore.com/books/annie-proulx-gift-brokeback-mountain/
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On October 13th, 1997—exactly twenty-five years ago—The New Yorker published Brokeback Mountain, a short story by Pulitzer-winning writer Annie Proulx.
OMG it can't possibly be that long ago. :o :(
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OMG it can't possibly be that long ago. :o :(
time flies when you're having fun!
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time flies when you're having fun!
Even when you're not. ::)
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;D
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Annie Proulx and the Gift of “Brokeback Mountain”
By Innocent Chizaram Ilo - October 13, 2022
On October 13th, 1997—exactly twenty-five years ago—The New Yorker published Brokeback Mountain, a short story by Pulitzer-winning writer Annie Proulx. “Brokeback Mountain” is a bittersweet love story about two cowboys; Jack Twist and Ennis del Mar. The story dutifully follows Jack and Ennis’s twenty-year relationship from when it blossomed during a ranching gig in 1963 at the fictional “Brokeback Mountain” range, to the duo reconnecting after four years with both men now married to women. Jack is married to “a cute little old Texas girl down in Childress” called Lureen and Ennis to Alma Beers. From there, we follow them through Ennis’s divorce and separation from his kids, down to the “fishing trips” that took them back to Brokeback Mountain, and finally to Jack’s death.
Annie Proulx’s mastery of American rural life shines through in “Brokeback Mountain”; the breathtaking mountain ranges, the undulating plains of Wyoming, and the ruggedness of American cowboy life leap off the pages. Most importantly, she introduced us to one of the most exquisitely written characters in literature: Jack Twist and Ennis del Mar.
The reader is first impressed by the similarities of the star-crossed lovers. Both Jack and Ennis “were raised on small, poor ranches in opposite corners of the state” and grew up to become roughened ranch hands in a culture where men are not encouraged to be vulnerable to each other, especially not in a romantic way. As the story progresses, we begin to see the parallels between the two. Ennis is reserved, less daring, scared, more grounded in reality. This manifests in his declaration that “there’s no reins” to their love affair and how it “scares the piss” out of him, his constant cold feet around having their “fishing trips” more frequently, and his dismissal of Jack’s plans for them to be together. Jack, on the other hand, is the dreamer who constantly lays out plans of him and Ennis living together in a ranch they’d own together. He’s also unashamed of wanting more, and constantly makes this known to Ennis. “How much is once in a while,” Jack asks. “Once in a while every four fuckin years?” For him, it’s not enough: “I can’t make it on a couple a’ high-altitude fucks once or twice a year.”
https://www.intomore.com/books/annie-proulx-gift-brokeback-mountain/
25 years huh? No doubt that Annie Proulx considers her award-winning "BROKEBACK MOUNTAIN" (1997) short story as being a highlight of her longtime literary career. It's nice to know that she was just so pleased with Ang Lee's 2005 theatrical film adaptation of it.
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OMG it can't possibly be that long ago. :o :(
I wasn't familiar with the short story before the theatrical release of Ang Lee's film adaptation of it. So, this means that there are members of this forum who were lucky enough to have had eight years of enjoying this story before Ang Lee's film adaptation was produced and then released into movie theaters.
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In “Fen, Bog, and Swamp,” Annie Proulx explores the marvels of wetlands and the sobering history of their destruction.
By Madeline Ostrander - 11.04.2022
When my niece was 4 years old, I introduced her to a swamp — in a park east of Seattle on a trail for kids that was posted with a series of illustrated signs narrating a story called “Zoe and the Swamp Monster.” The word, “swamp,” in all its mystery, beauty, and monstrosity, was new vocabulary to her. We tromped into the dark greenery toward the sedge meadows and read Zoe’s story aloud to each other, about a little girl who befriends a series of swampland animals. I also showed her how to identify bedstraw — a plant with tiny Velcro-like hooks — and attach it to her parents’ clothing, much to their annoyance and her amusement. We stared at mud puddles, mushrooms, leaves, birds’ nests, ferns, and willows, and searched for swampy bogeymen — though none appeared. At the end of the walk, she shouted into the trees, “I’m not afraid of you, Swamp!” It was the lesson I had hoped she’d find there.
It was also a rare moment — both the kind of kid-nature experience that is becoming scarce as everyone spends far too much time with screens, and a quiet revelation about the magic of swampy places. As Annie Proulx reminds us in her new book, “Fen, Bog, and Swamp: A Short History of Peatland Destruction and Its Role in the Climate Crisis,”wetlands are stigmatized in common language, stories, and rhetoric. Quagmires and morasses, for instance, should be avoided.
Such aversion is partly warranted, based on the memories of generations past who suffered from malaria (spread by mosquitoes that inhabit moist places) or from the unhappy experiences of European-American settlers who knew neither how to navigate easily through nor live comfortably within vast areas of peat and muck, fish, and birds. “Drain the swamp,” was Reagan-era rhetoric before Donald Trump revived the phrase during his 2016 campaign.
https://undark.org/2022/11/04/book-review-the-magic-of-the-worlds-soggy-places/
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Arts Escape Virtual Book Club on Wednesday, February 15
Arts Escape is now accepting registrations for their Virtual Book Club in February. This class will be held online through Zoom.
For this month, facilitator Cathy Capuano will lead AE’s Book Club in reading Pulitzer Prize and National Book Award winner, "The Shipping News" by Annie Proulx. The book club meeting will be held on Wednesday, February 15 from 1:00 p.m. to 2:00 p.m.
When Quoyle's two-timing wife meets her just desserts, he retreats with his two daughters to his ancestral home on the starkly beautiful Newfoundland coast, where a rich cast of local characters and family members all play a part in Quoyle's struggle to reclaim his life. As Quoyle confronts his private demons--and the unpredictable forces of nature and society--he begins to see the possibility of love without pain or misery.
https://news.hamlethub.com/southbury/events/6098-arts-escape-virtual-book-club-february-2023
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Book grief is real – it’s why I have stacks of them all over my house
By Susie Mesure - 03/03/23
What’s not to love about accumulating books – from the thrill of stocking up on a new authorial crush to remembering favourite titles long since devoured?
Nothing…. except, perhaps, the flip side to amassing a library: the need to winnow its physical contents. This was something the American author Annie Proulx found out the hard way on a recent cross-coast move back to New England from the Pacific Northwest.
Proulx, who is best known for The Shipping News, had to get rid of vast numbers of books she had acquired, many from second-hand bookshops around the world, because the cost of a third moving truck was beyond her.
“I thought I could do without them. It was only when I got here and unpacked things and had a lot of empty shelves that I realised the enormity of what I had done. I was filled with book grief. I still find myself looking for a book I used to have and no longer have,” she said in a recent interview.
https://inews.co.uk/inews-lifestyle/book-grief-is-real-its-why-i-have-stacks-of-them-all-over-my-house-2183016
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Book grief is real – it’s why I have stacks of them all over my house
By Susie Mesure - 03/03/23
What’s not to love about accumulating books – from the thrill of stocking up on a new authorial crush to remembering favourite titles long since devoured?
Nothing…. except, perhaps, the flip side to amassing a library: the need to winnow its physical contents. This was something the American author Annie Proulx found out the hard way on a recent cross-coast move back to New England from the Pacific Northwest.
Proulx, who is best known for The Shipping News, had to get rid of vast numbers of books she had acquired, many from second-hand bookshops around the world, because the cost of a third moving truck was beyond her.
“I thought I could do without them. It was only when I got here and unpacked things and had a lot of empty shelves that I realised the enormity of what I had done. I was filled with book grief. I still find myself looking for a book I used to have and no longer have,” she said in a recent interview.
https://inews.co.uk/inews-lifestyle/book-grief-is-real-its-why-i-have-stacks-of-them-all-over-my-house-2183016
OMG, that's the truth for sure. :">
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Writers Institute announces 2023 fall season
Katherine Kiessling - Aug. 3, 2023
Contemporary topics ranging from artificial intelligence to state politics take center stage in the New York State Writers Institute newly announced fall season featuring more than 30 events.
Among the season highlights is the sixth annual Albany Book Festival on Sept. 23 at the University at Albany Campus Center. The event will feature Annie Proulx, whose short story “Brokeback Mountain” was adapted for the screen in 2005, and Jeff Shaara, author of “Gods and Generals” and “The Old Lion,” alongside 25 additional authors; readings; book signings and meet-and-greet opportunities; discussion panels; and virtual workshops for aspiring authors.
Johnstown native Richard Russo will kick off the fall season Aug. 29 with a reading and discussion of his newest novel “Somebody’s Fool.” The book concludes the author’s “North Bath” trilogy, which highlights blue collar life in upstate New York. Several of Russo’s works have been adapted for film and television, including “Nobody’s Fool,” “Empire Falls” and “Straight Man.”
https://www.timesunion.com/books/article/writers-institute-2023-fall-season-18272642.php