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Compare and contrast the Thanksgiving scenes. Or just talk about either or both.
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I want to bring up something interesting about Alma. She divorces Ennis who is the epitome of the rugged, Marlboro man cowboy: quiet, tactiturn, not afraid to whoop some ass. She then marries Monroe, who is by far the most effeminate man in the movie. This is especially true when one juxtaposes the two Thanksgiving scenes. In one, the "stud duck" stands to carve the turkey with a real knife and "real men" watch football. In the other, the man of the house sits down and carves the turkey with an electric knife (after his wife nods her permission for him to do so), watches Ice Skating after the meal (I think that was what was on TV), and sits meekly while he wife is under attack in the kitchen.
IMO, those two Thanksgiving scenes are classic works of film making. They almost pitch perfect mirror one another and offer some of the movie's best insight into the two women and their perceptions of and relationships with masculinity and the classic Western male/cowboy. Jack and Ennis both respond violently when their masculinity is threatened, and in doing so, emasculate the "real" men both Lureen and Alma look to for protection. There is even more contrast in the children's interactions with their fathers, and in the wives disparate responses to Jack and Ennis asserting their masculinity.)
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IMO, those two Thanksgiving scenes are classic works of film making. They almost pitch perfect mirror one another and offer some of the movie's best insight into the two women and their perceptions of and relationships with masculinity and the classic Western male/cowboy. Jack and Ennis both respond violently when their masculinity is threatened, and in doing so, emasculate the "real" men both Lureen and Alma look to for protection. There is even more contrast in the children's interactions with their fathers, and in the wives disparate responses to Jack and Ennis asserting their masculinity.
not entirely disparate. Both Lureen and Alma react to their men. Alma can't help but smile when Ennis regales his short career as a bronc rider and Lureen almost shows teeth at the fact that someone ANYONE has finally stood up to her windbag father. The worst part is neither man sees it.
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Does Alma really smile? It almost seems as if she is forcing some sort of recognition out of herself because I think she is entirely uncomfortable with the whole situation. I think she still has so much bottled inside about Jack and Ennis that the only thing that is easing the tension for her is seeing her daughters happy....btw, I love Anne Hathaway's reaction after Jack flips out on the Dad. And then she gives little Bobby a look, like "See, your father is the man of the house." Which I think shows Lureen's need for that masculinity/protection that she wishes she had more from Jack...which I think is why she's so quick to cover up her husband's death. Or partly why anyway.
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INT: CHILDRESS, TEXAS: JACK & LUREEN'S HOUSE: THANKSGIVING: DAY: 1977
JACK and LUREEN'S home. Wall-to-wall carperting, fairly luxurious, particularly in comparsion to ENNIS'S life. Many photos of LUREEN winning barrel-racing tropgies. One of JACK, the one taken in the arena the day they met.
JACK, LUREEN, BOBBY, age ten, LUREEN'S long suffering MOTHER and L. D. NEWSUME, Jack's prick of a father-in-law. The table is set for a full Thanksgiving dinner, huge turkey and all the trimmings. As everyone shuffles into their places at the table, WE HEAR the TV in the background. Football game.
JACK is at the head of the table and has just reached for the carving tools, when L. D., older but no kinder, takes them right out of his hands.
L.D. NUSOME
Whoa, now, Rodeo....the stud duck does the carving around here.
JACK, having been trhough this kind of scene many times before, tries nonetheless to be gracious.
JACK
You bet, L.D....just thought I'd save you the trouble.
BOBBY is riveted by the television set.
LUREEN notices.
LUREEN
Bobby, if you don't eat your dinner, I'm gonna have to turn off that television.
BOBBY
Why, Mama? I'm gonna be eatin' this food for the next two weeks.
LUREEN flashes a look at JACK, who then gets up from the table, turns off the television, sits back down.
BOBBY slumps back in his chair, pouts.
JACK
You heard your mama. You can eat your dinner. Then you can watch the game.
L.D. NUSOME sets down the carving tools. Goes to the TV, turns it back on.
LUREEN
Daddy? (pauses) Daddy!
L.D. NUSOME
(picks up the carving tools)
Hell, we don't eat with our eyes.
(looks at Lureen)
You want your son to grow up to be a man, don't you, daughter?
(direct look at Jack)
Boys should watch football.
JACK
(stands up--barely maintain composure)
Not until he finishes the meal his mama spent three hours fixin'.
LUREEN, BOBBY and LUREEN's MOTHER are all startled. JACK has never stood up to L.D. like this before. They watch, silent.
Now L.D. stands again, goes to the TV again, but before he can turn it back on, WE HEAR:
JACK:
Sit down, you old son of a bitch.
L.D. stops dead in his tracks, his hand poised about the TV dial. Doesn't move.
JACK
This is my house! This is my child And you're my guest! So sit the hell down, or I'll knock your ignorant ass into next week....
L.D. is so startled, he automatically obeys.
LUREEN, though trying to keep a bleak demeanor, is secretly pleased.
BOBBY goes bacj to eating his drumstick.
JACK slices the turkey.
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Anne Hathaway in her CHUD interview said that she played Lureen as someone who was really trying to believe in her husband, to really love and make a life with Jack. She said that Lureen became disillusioned over the years and became "hard" as a mask to cover up her hurt. She said that, in playing her character, that the smile she gave during Thanksgiving dinner was one moment she really felt proud of Jack. The rest, though, was pretty much downhill.
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These were terrific scenes bringing much color to the characters. Odd that so many critics think they were somehow artificial - yeah, not in the short story, but...
I second peterinportland's word completely.
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i particularly love alma jr.'s obvious, abundant love and affection and total admiration for her father in their thanksgiving scene. i love the brief shot of her in the background stroking ennis' back as she walks by him while he is clearing the dishes from the table. her maternal nature with him in the later parts of the film is so touching. for me, it was just so great to see ennis be able to and, more importantly, allowed to, demonstrate his love for his daughters. his existence is so bottled up and his love for jack is simply not allowed in his universe. his daughters are the outlet for all of his affection. i am one who feels that alma, jr. knew about her father, and probably, knew about her father and jack. children remember and jack reenterd ennis' life when she was old enough to recognize the effects the relationship had on the family, and specifically, her mother. her desire to protect and care for her father reflects this knowledge. i just love that whole relationship. i think thanksgiving is when we really see it begin to to flourish.
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Muse, I agree. I definitely see hero worship in their eyes in this scene. There is a bit of a different reaction from Jack's son. I haven't worked out yet why we see such different reactions from the children to their fathers in these two scenes. It has been percolating in the back of my brain but I have no revelation as of yet.
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Muse, I agree. I definitely see hero worship in their eyes in this scene. There is a bit of a different reaction from Jack's son. I haven't worked out yet why we see such different reactions from the children to their fathers in these two scenes. It has been percolating in the back of my brain but I have no revelation as of yet.
I think Jack's son is embarassed by his dad who isn't, like him, the spitting image of his grandpa - that loathesome newsome. After all being called Rodeo and all the other horrid names from the other "macho" guys in texas. If he only knew what a real man his dad was...
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jack's relationship with his son is a bit confusing for me. when ennis introduces jack to alma, jack mentions his son and simply says "(he) smiles a lot." it sounds a bit emotionally detached. other than a brief scene with little bobby on jack's lap driving farm machinery, there is little interaction between the two and little exporation of their relationship. meanwhile, ennis' relationship with the girls is a vital part of the film. jacks interaction with lureen's father at thanksgiving seems to be less about standing up defending his role as a father as it is about him standing up defending his manhood. mr. newsome has been mocking jack's masculinity for years and when he does it in front of bobby (by reminding him that real boys should watch football), it is the last straw.
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There are two scenes with Jack and Ennis standing at a truck waiting to drive away. The first is when the two come down off BBM and they are about to part ways. It is commonly referred to as the "Gonna do this again next summer" scene.
The other is when Jack drives 1,200 miles after Ennis and Alma divorce, and Ennis introduces Jack to his daughters and then dashes Jack's dreams of them living a life together.
This is the thread to discuss either of these scenes, either separate or together.
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The first truck scene played out like I would have expected. How many of us (especially in the younger years) have been carried to the mountain on the wings of wishful possibility only to have it collapse into a deep sink hole by cold hard reality. Some connections no matter how intense and emotionally charged are just not the stuff of long term relationships.
The other truck scene is quite differant. Ennis initiated contact. Most likely this was the first and only time he had done this. He had to know how Jack would react. Ennis treated him so shabbily and disrespectful. The "King of the Road" should have finally realized that Ennis would never be capable of anything more and moved on to find the kind of happiness that he needed with someone else. Ending up in Mexico could not have been much of a joy despite the carnal release it provided.
Jack should have finally learned. What he had was basically a "one night stand" that played sporadically for twenty years.
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The first truck scene played out like I would have expected. How many of us (especially in the younger years) have been carried to the mountain on the wings of wishful possibility only to have it collapse into a deep sink hole by cold hard reality. Some connections no matter how intense and emotionally charged are just not the stuff of long term relationships.
The other truck scene is quite differant. Ennis initiated contact. Most likely this was the first and only time he had done this. He had to know how Jack would react. Ennis treated him so shabbily and disrespectful. The "King of the Road" should have finally realized that Ennis would never be capable of anything more and moved on to find the kind of happiness that he needed with someone else. Ending up in Mexico could not have been much of a joy despite the carnal release it provided.
Jack should have finally learned. What he had was basically a "one night stand" that played sporadically for twenty years.
Yes, "but one moments reprieve from loneliness can illuminate a lifetime"...(NY Times Review}
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The other truck scene is quite differant. Ennis initiated contact. Most likely this was the first and only time he had done this. He had to know how Jack would react. Ennis treated him so shabbily and disrespectful. The "King of the Road" should have finally realized that Ennis would never be capable of anything more and moved on to find the kind of happiness that he needed with someone else. Ending up in Mexico could not have been much of a joy despite the carnal release it provided.
Jack should have finally learned. What he had was basically a "one night stand" that played sporadically for twenty years.
OHG. Have you seen the movie? Tragic though it is that Ennis coudn't love Jack the way Jack wanted and needed, they still LOVED each other, through it all. They did what they had to do, but it never interfered with their devotion to each other, even after Jack is killed.
It COULD have been a one night stand, after the first drunken, clunking sexual encounter, but it turned into lovemaking the next night, and presumably (mabye just in my mind) better and more fulfilling after that.
It COULD have been a one-summer affair, but the love affair never cooled or abated, and the fire never weakened between them enough for them to part ways, even though Jack became increasingly disillusioned and sad.
I can only hope to experience such love, whatever the circumstances.
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OHG. Have you seen the movie? {.....} I can only hope to experience such love, whatever the circumstances.
I guess I am made of weaker stuff because I would not be able to stand that kind of rejection over and over.
A couple of "feast" days would never sustain me through the rest of the "famine" year.
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"Jack should have finally learned. What he had was basically a "one night stand" that played sporadically for twenty years."
I totally agree with the person who posted the above statement. Jack too way too much emotional abuse from Ennis. I mean how many times can a person stand to be rejected? After a time you would think a thing called dignity or self respect would kick in and he would move on. Sure jack would have been heartbroken but he's heartbroken all the time anyway! A least if he moved on he might have found someone else to ease the pain a bit. This romantic notion that a binding love that brings nothing but pain must be endured or fought for is a crock. But hey, it keeps the makers of Prozac in business! Hmmm, Jack or Ennis on Prozac...now how would that version of the story play out? ;)
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"Jack should have finally learned. What he had was basically a "one night stand" that played sporadically for twenty years."
I totally agree with the person who posted the above statement. Jack too way too much emotional abuse from Ennis. I mean how many times can a person stand to be rejected? After a time you would think a thing called dignity or self respect would kick in and he would move on. Sure jack would have been heartbroken but he's heartbroken all the time anyway! A least if he moved on he might have found someone else to ease the pain a bit. This romantic notion that a binding love that brings nothing but pain must be endured or fought for is a crock. But hey, it keeps the makers of Prozac in business! Hmmm, Jack or Ennis on Prozac...now how would that version of the story play out? ;)
That was me! Thank you for posting! Sometimes I feel so alone in that I don't think love no matter how blazing should be suffered for in the way Jack suffered. I have been lambasted in the past for expressing this view. I started out in life much like Ennis and worked my way though Jack. I learned the hard way that there has to be balance and respect. Hot high altitude interactions a couple times a year lose their significance given the reality that Jack died at age 39 without ever having the good life he craved.
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To call Ennis's inability to fully commit to Jack's needs abuse seems to me to be way out of line. You're not talking about 2005 in West Hollywood here. I'm only 4 years younger than these characters and I know it was tough in those times. The fact that I escaped this sort of oppression is a gift of grace.
Ennis del Mar was a troubled soul paralyzed by fear and by his real commitments to his children. That he loved Jack is incontrovertible. Didn't you see the "shirts" scene!? My God, give him a break. Like so many other human beings they did have differing levels of tolerance for loneliness and sexual outlets. Jack was moving on one could suppose, but his faithfulness to Ennis (I'm not talking about one night stands in Mexico or anywhere else) was a supreme act of love. There is nothing of more value, and love doesn't come cheap.
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You said "Ennis del Mar was a troubled soul paralyzed by fear and by his real commitments to his children"
What's that phrase about if you love something let it go? If Ennis truly loved Jack wouldn't he have done that? I mean there is no question in my mind he knew how his unavailability was hurting Jack. And crying over 2 shirts at the end of the story does not absolve him. It's real easy for him to show his love now that Jack is dead isn't it? I mean he really doesn't have to step out of his shell right? He doesn't have to worry about being in a relationship or facing the truth about who he is. how convenient.
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With Ennis and/or Jack on a low-dose SSRI we would not have much of a story past the first summer.
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I guess I am made of weaker stuff because I would not be able to stand that kind of rejection over and over.
Sometimes I have tried to count (in the movie) how many times directly or indirectly Ennis rejected Jack's idea to live together, or be in close proximity, and I can barely finish...Jack was rejected so many times it was heartbreaking. But given the time, who Ennis was, etc., I do understand.
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You said "Ennis del Mar was a troubled soul paralyzed by fear and by his real commitments to his children"
What's that phrase about if you love something let it go? If Ennis truly loved Jack wouldn't he have done that? I mean there is no question in my mind he knew how his unavailability was hurting Jack. And crying over 2 shirts at the end of the story does not absolve him. It's real easy for him to show his love now that Jack is dead isn't it? I mean he really doesn't have to step out of his shell right? He doesn't have to worry about being in a relationship or facing the truth about who he is. how convenient.
Convenient! Do you really think there was anything convenient in Ennis's life. The extreme poverty, lack of education, abusive father, orphaned at a young age, married because he thought it was the only thing one could do, had backbreaking jobs... Where do I stop! This guy suffered from the beginning to the end and Jack's life was no piece of cake (though he was able to get himself into a comfortable financial situation).
Ennis wasn't perfect and neither am I.
As for the "if you love someone let them go" bit it's another version of "love the one you're with if you can't be with the one you love" , that attitude doesn't work for me. To me love is something so authentic that you can't dismiss it even if it makes your life inconvenient.
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OHG. Have you seen the movie? {.....} I can only hope to experience such love, whatever the circumstances.
I guess I am made of weaker stuff because I would not be able to stand that kind of rejection over and over.
A couple of "feast" days would never sustain me through the rest of the "famine" year.
It's not easy, Bennett. It takes all of your strength and all of your love to keep it going. It's not the kind of relationship for everyone. And as long as there is hope, you get through it. It's when it turns bitter that it becomes unbearable.
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I guess I am made of weaker stuff because I would not be able to stand that kind of rejection over and over.
Sometimes I have tried to count (in the movie) how many times directly or indirectly Ennis rejected Jack's idea to live together, or be in close proximity, and I can barely finish...Jack was rejected so many times it was heartbreaking. But given the time, who Ennis was, etc., I do understand.
Evidently I really am the least romantic person on the planet. If you love someone, you do what you have to do. Jack asked for more in their relationship, but he never made it a condition, because he probably almost certainly knew Ennis couldn't do it. Ennis didn't reject Jack as much as he rejected the idea of them setting up shop together and being a couple.
Yes, Ennis rejected Jack on a number of levels throughout the film. However, they also had years of tent-shaking, teeth clanking, heart-stopping, deeply-involved sex and tenderness that Jack, no doubt, enjoyed, although it was never enough for him. Even though it appeared Jack was taking steps to move on, he never let on to Ennis and made no attempt to end the relationship, such as it was.
In our time of cell phones and email, we forget that it wasn't always this way. Everyone wasn't always at everyone else's fingertips.
I guess I'm also in the minority with having partners that might not have been willing to make sacrifices for the relationship like I was. The "Jack" in the partnership has to decide if "unsatisfactory" is better than nothing. I think for both of them, it was.
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OHG. Have you seen the movie? {.....} I can only hope to experience such love, whatever the circumstances.
I guess I am made of weaker stuff because I would not be able to stand that kind of rejection over and over.
A couple of "feast" days would never sustain me through the rest of the "famine" year.
It's not easy, Bennett. It takes all of your strength and all of your love to keep it going. It's not the kind of relationship for everyone. And as long as there is hope, you get through it. It's when it turns bitter that it becomes unbearable.
I think that was what happened for both of them. It did turn unbearable and seemed without hope. Jack did turn to Randall.
To call Ennis's inability to fully commit to Jack's needs abuse seems to me to be way out of line. {...} Ennis del Mar was a troubled soul paralyzed by fear and by his real commitments to his children. That he loved Jack is incontrovertible. {...} Like so many other human beings they did have differing levels of tolerance for loneliness and sexual outlets. Jack was moving on one could suppose, but his faithfulness to Ennis (.....) was a supreme act of love. There is nothing of more value, and love doesn't come cheap.
I have absolutely no doubt their love was real and straight from the depths of their souls. I have no doubt that they connected in that rare once in life time kind of way. However this "abuse" is not only of Jack but of Ennis himself. He blames Jack for "what" he is and that his life is "nowhere" because of him. Ennis could not be "joined at the hip" in the way that Jack would have liked. Not everyone is cut out to be so pasted together but two random weeks a year is not the stuff great love can survive on. Where does Ennis's responsibility to himself, to Jack and the relationship kick in? Jack has to take responsibility for his choices but Ennis was the one issuing the ultimatums.
Why did it take the death of the relationship and of Jack before Ennis could admit to himself the importance of it all? Ennis being a troubled soul paralyzed by fear does not give him absolution.
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You said "As for the "if you love someone let them go" bit it's another version of "love the one you're with if you can't be with the one you love" , that attitude doesn't work for me. To me love is something so authentic that you can't dismiss it even if it makes your life inconvenient"
But that is exactly what Ennis does! he dismisses his love by using his fears as a crutch! It's more convenient than facing the rebuke of society and family for his "authentic love". Face it Dave! Ennis didn't have the courage to face up to his true nature and his love until AFTER Jack was dead and out of the way! Sure he had a difficult life but he had a real chance for some happiness. He was just too afraid to make the move when it really mattered. So that makes me question which was really the more authentic to Ennis--his love for Jack or his fears?
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"Sometimes I feel so alone in that I don't think love no matter how blazing should be suffered for in the way Jack suffered"
Exactly Pdxbennett! I mean do people still really believe that out of the billions of people on the planet there is only that "one special person" for them?? I mean come on! Jack could have found another Ennis. I mean look at the odds!
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"Sometimes I feel so alone in that I don't think love no matter how blazing should be suffered for in the way Jack suffered"
Exactly Pdxbennett! I mean do people still really believe that out of the billions of people on the planet there is only that "one special person" for them?? I mean come on! Jack could have found another Ennis. I mean look at the odds!
I disagree...I think most people settle for someone...what Ennis and Jack had...they not only love each other they were IN love with each other...sure, they could have found someone else...but not another Ennis...or another Jack...
Todd
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"disagree...I think most people settle for someone...what Ennis and Jack had...they not only love each other they were IN love with each other...sure, they could have found someone else...but not another Ennis...or another Jack..."
Todd, are you saying that people who settle for someone, if they break up or that someone dies, they will never be in love again? They will never find love again? Come on.
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"disagree...I think most people settle for someone...what Ennis and Jack had...they not only love each other they were IN love with each other...sure, they could have found someone else...but not another Ennis...or another Jack..."
Todd, are you saying that people who settle for someone, if they break up or that someone dies, they will never be in love again? They will never find love again? Come on.
No not at all...Jack and Ennis had found someone with whom to love...there wives...but they were IN love with each other and therefore, could never find that same unmistakable, glorious feeling that they had with each other...I'm hoping Ennis found love again...but it will and could never be Jack...
Todd
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"disagree...I think most people settle for someone...what Ennis and Jack had...they not only love each other they were IN love with each other...sure, they could have found someone else...but not another Ennis...or another Jack..."
Todd, are you saying that people who settle for someone, if they break up or that someone dies, they will never be in love again? They will never find love again? Come on.
No not at all...Jack and Ennis had found someone with whom to love...there wives...but they were IN love with each other and therefore, could never find that same unmistakable, glorious feeling that they had with each other...I'm hoping Ennis found love again...but it will and could never be Jack...
Todd
I'm glad that you put it this way. A lot of the critics described the marriages to Alma and Lureen as "loveless."
But I don't think that was entirely true. They loved their wives, just not the way that their vows required them to, especially the forsaking all others, part...oops.
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jack's relationship with his son is a bit confusing for me. when ennis introduces jack to alma, jack mentions his son and simply says "(he) smiles a lot." it sounds a bit emotionally detached. other than a brief scene with little bobby on jack's lap driving farm machinery, there is little interaction between the two and little exporation of their relationship. meanwhile, ennis' relationship with the girls is a vital part of the film. jacks interaction with lureen's father at thanksgiving seems to be less about standing up defending his role as a father as it is about him standing up defending his manhood. mr. newsome has been mocking jack's masculinity for years and when he does it in front of bobby (by reminding him that real boys should watch football), it is the last straw.
Jack makes it clear in the short story that he did not want children. That does not mean that he didn't love his son, but it is another conflict in Jack's life. The live he wanted vs. reality. It is another way in which this story does not descend into sentimentality. Ennis loves his little girls to pieces, Jack doesn't seem to want much of anything beyond a life with Ennis.
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"disagree...I think most people settle for someone...what Ennis and Jack had...they not only love each other they were IN love with each other...sure, they could have found someone else...but not another Ennis...or another Jack..."
Todd, are you saying that people who settle for someone, if they break up or that someone dies, they will never be in love again? They will never find love again? Come on.
No not at all...Jack and Ennis had found someone with whom to love...there wives...but they were IN love with each other and therefore, could never find that same unmistakable, glorious feeling that they had with each other...I'm hoping Ennis found love again...but it will and could never be Jack...
Todd
I'm glad that you put it this way. A lot of the critics described the marriages to Alma and Lureen as "loveless."
But I don't think that was entirely true. They loved their wives, just not the way that their vows required them to, especially the forsaking all others, part...oops.
Yeah...they were definitely unfulfilled marriages...
Todd
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I wonder if all this very good discussion about should Jack have stayed with Ennis all those years belongs in this particular thread. However, when one looks at those two truck scenes and the message implied in both of them, I think this might be as good of a place as any. There are parallels for almost every scene in this movie, and I think these two definitely parallel one another. In both, Jack is heartbroken and drives away with tears in his eyes.
I also love the look of hope he has in both of these scenes. In the first, he has that very hopeful expression: the eyebrow lift and the line "But I might be back." In the second, his face is so wide open and hopeful when he utters the line "Well, here I am." In both, it seems so much like it is Jack's hope up against Ennis' fear. And as so often happens in our lives, fear wins out over everything else, including love. It is also telling that during the first scene Ennis uses Alma as an excuse and in the second he uses his daughters as an excuse. There is always an excuse to cover up his fear.
Personally, MY hope is that Jack kept on for so long because, like most romantics, he felt that love has to win out over fear in the end. We see that when he says in the second truck scene "All right. I'll see you next month, then." He is signalling that he will not give up, that he will continue to hope and will continue to love.
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Yay, Pete!
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"Personally, MY hope is that Jack kept on for so long because, like most romantics, he felt that love has to win out over fear in the end. We see that when he says in the second truck scene "All right. I'll see you next month, then." He is signalling that he will not give up, that he will continue to hope and will continue to love. "
Peter, and how did that work out for him? Jack was in an emotionally abusive relationship and like most victims he learned to play his part very well. That's what he's signaling when he says "I'll see you next month" He's saying I'm too weak to break it off so I'll be back for more pain. that's not romantic. that's tragic.
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Wow, interesting perspective, Mr. W.
I can't say I disagree with you.
(this is one of the things so wonderful about this film... so many layers of complexity and interpretation... )
I had a relationship in which my romantic partner was emotionally distant and unable to commit to the relationship, as much as he might have liked to. I felt an emotional wreck much of the time, but I was madly in love with him, trying hard to see hope, keep trying, etc. We even had a hard break up (initiated by me) and then a year apart and then tried again for another year. Same result. I finally figured out (deep, in my gut, not just my head) that he wasn't going to change, wasn't going to give me what I needed. It was the hardest thing I did but for my own good I cut off all contact with him. It's been over a year and I do feel nearly 'over it'. Was hard though.
So in some ways, I feel like, yeah, Jack could have, maybe even should have, mustered the courage to break it off. In some ways he would have been doing both of them a favor. Obviously he either couldn't or wouldn't...wondering which of these it really was...
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Gee Whiz, Mr Wrong, you must be some strong fella... As for the rest of the world, we do have weaknesses and live with them. If we're imobilised by fear, maybe, by the grace of God we can overcome it, but not always.
Then again, each of us has our limit as to how far to go in a trying situation.
Let be, Let be...
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That is an interesting perspective Mr, and one I think has some validity. I do have some thoughts in reply, but I am off to work and will have to wait until after the Globes tonight to make a reply!
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The 'divorce' truck scene was, for me, by far the best of the MacMurtry/Ossana invented scenes. It had to be there, since it described a crucial development in Jack and Ennis's relationship, yet the original story only included it as a seemingly throwaway remark near the end, when so much else is happening. They realised it and integrated it into the film's story-line perfectly and it made for one of Jake Gyllenhaal's best moments, lurching from 'King of the Road' elation to devastation. It was also unusual in coming from Jack's perspective, since overall the movie took Ennis's - fair enough since the story was written that way and fidelity to the souce was (quite rightly) paramount. To my mind, along with the 'Reunion' scene, it virtually bookended a crucial part of the story, as marking the honeymoon period of their post-Brokeback relationship: Ennis's excitment being fulfilled in the earlier scene then Jack's destroyed in this one.
The discussion about the Jack/Ennis relationship here has been interesting and it does seem that Jack's disillusionment was real, though it did take a few more years to finally surge through, with a crash, during the final encounter between them. I think this is what we see in the contrast between the two images of Gyllenhaal's face when he gazes at the departing Ennis - adoringly in the perfect flashback, but haunted and desperate in the later image that immediately follows it. Jack has made a decision, and soon afterwards, when visiting his parents, he mentions a new candidate for moving up with him. Tragically, pursuing this may have led to his death.
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But that is exactly what Ennis does! he dismisses his love by using his fears as a crutch! It's more convenient than facing the rebuke of society and family for his "authentic love". Face it Dave! Ennis didn't have the courage to face up to his true nature and his love until AFTER Jack was dead and out of the way! Sure he had a difficult life but he had a real chance for some happiness. He was just too afraid to make the move when it really mattered. So that makes me question which was really the more authentic to Ennis--his love for Jack or his fears?
... can't they both be authentic? Fear and love are both very strong emotions. It's often easy to say someone was weak ... or should have done this or that. Step into Ennis' shoes ... live his life and then see how you feel. You mention that Ennis couldn't face up to his love for Jack until after Jack's death. I think there were numerous times that Ennis' love for Jack showed before Jack's death. He knew he was in love but just couldn't live together. We are all "victims" of our past ... our experiences. We live our lives in accordance with that and we are only able to do what we can .... in that very moment. I think Ennis did the very best "he" could ... and I could never fault him for that!
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"Personally, MY hope is that Jack kept on for so long because, like most romantics, he felt that love has to win out over fear in the end. We see that when he says in the second truck scene "All right. I'll see you next month, then." He is signalling that he will not give up, that he will continue to hope and will continue to love. "
Peter, and how did that work out for him? Jack was in an emotionally abusive relationship and like most victims he learned to play his part very well. That's what he's signaling when he says "I'll see you next month" He's saying I'm too weak to break it off so I'll be back for more pain. that's not romantic. that's tragic.
As people have commented earlier, it worked out for him in that he had twenty years spending time every year in beautiful places with the one person in the world who made him truly happy. Some of us envy him that, "emotional abuse" or no.
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Man, I wish we could have contextual awareness and not see this through our urbane, global 21st century world view. The very fact that we're online, in a forum, indicates something about us: that we are mobile in ways that Ennis never could be. That's the significance of the truck scenes - Jack does have those other options in his socially climbable world and can be 'king of the road', even if it's idealism rather than truth. He can leave Ennis; and I think is close to it near the end of the film. The fact that it takes so long is not tantamount to his victim status in an abusive relationship (spare the psychobabble, please!) but his love. In contrast, Ennis only travels round a coffee pot. He's the fixed flame and Jack is the mobile moth.
Love can strike us - it's a distillation of chance, mood, personality - and never hit us as hard as that again, and whether that's because of nature or romantic sensibility doesn't matter two hoots. Jack and Ennis's love is distilled from that pre-lapsarian world of Brokeback - a world they can only stare across to once they've left it and never recapture. No wonder they are drawn back to each other so strongly.
Watch that kiss four years on and tell me it isn't love.
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"As people have commented earlier, it worked out for him in that he had twenty years spending time every year in beautiful places with the one person in the world who made him truly happy. Some of us envy him that, "emotional abuse" or no."
OK, so as long as I show someone love and a wonderful time once or twice a year I can abuse them and that will be OK, right? I mean I may beat the hell out of him or abuse him emotionally but at least I took him to the mountains! I can't believe how some people are so willing to give a lover a "free pass" to abuse them as long as it is interspersed with a few good times. Truly amazing.
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Where's the evidence for Ennis abusing Jack emotionally? And other than that one punch, where's the evidence for violence? You're seeing a mountain where there's a molehill methinks. Ennis isn't abusive; he IS inarticulate.
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"Where's the evidence for Ennis abusing Jack emotionally? And other than that one punch, where's the evidence for violence? You're seeing a mountain where there's a molehill methinks. Ennis isn't abusive; he IS inarticulate."
I'd call 20 years of rejection or stringing someone along when you know you can't commit abuse. pull you in, cut you loose, pull you in, cut you loose. Or more plainly, love you, reject you, love you , reject you. We see the toll it takes on Jack through the years. pretty sad.
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Okay - well either I'm a romantic idealist or you are - relationships are never pragmatic, open, straightforward to interpret - they are always messy and partial. Abuse is a strong word, my friend, for a failure to know yourself... I'm startled by anyone who can't sympathise (even if empathy is outside their domain) for Ennis whilst they also sympathise with Jack (and of course all three women too). The film I hope, for most of us at least, challenges the reductionist (and Hollywood!) belief that good relationships become straightforward and life should be about minimising pain.
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Actually, we know that Jack was a little more caught up in his son's welfare than Lurene. The scene when Jack's looking for his blue parka, he asks Lurene if she's called Bobby's school to get a tutor for him. Lurene clearly hasn't even thought about it. But Jack has apparently complained to the school so much, that they don't like him. And in the short story, Jack mentions his concern about Bobby's dyslexia to Ennis.
But, juxtapose that image with his absolute willingness to abandon all of it if Ennis will just give him the green light.
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I had a relationship in which my romantic partner was emotionally distant and unable to commit to the relationship, as much as he might have liked to. I felt an emotional wreck much of the time, but I was madly in love with him, trying hard to see hope, keep trying, etc. We even had a hard break up (initiated by me) and then a year apart and then tried again for another year. Same result. I finally figured out (deep, in my gut, not just my head) that he wasn't going to change, wasn't going to give me what I needed. It was the hardest thing I did but for my own good I cut off all contact with him. It's been over a year and I do feel nearly 'over it'. Was hard though.
Sounds familiar.
Many years ago I tumbled into a very intense relationship with a rather closed-off person. I wasn't even fortunate enough to see him that often. At one point I went two years without seeing him. Our own "infrequent couplings" were enough to keep a fire burning in my heart that one day we would truly be together. I purposely ignored all the obstacles and warning signs and like a pathetic cowering dog I crawled back every time he snapped his fingers. The final time I saw him I drove from Michigan to Las Vegas via San Francisco. It was the moment I had been anticipating for two years. Unfortunately our "relationship" imploded and after three days I left LV in a teary haze. I never saw him again. It was a few more months before I gave up all hope that he would ever welcome me like I wished for. Closing that chapter of my life was extraordinarily painful but it was something that had to be done. I didn't even have 20 years with my sometime lover like Jack and Ennis. I only had three.
Attraction makes people do strange things. Yes, I kept offering myself up like a sacrificial lamb when I knew deep down that I was mostly being used. I just kept going back, and back, and back for more...hoping that maybe, just one of those times, the object of my affection would love me in return.
Because of this I can understand why Jack would stay with Ennis for that long.
-sasrah
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The first truck scene played out like I would have expected. How many of us (especially in the younger years) have been carried to the mountain on the wings of wishful possibility only to have it collapse into a deep sink hole by cold hard reality. Some connections no matter how intense and emotionally charged are just not the stuff of long term relationships.
The other truck scene is quite differant. Ennis initiated contact. Most likely this was the first and only time he had done this. He had to know how Jack would react. Ennis treated him so shabbily and disrespectful. The "King of the Road" should have finally realized that Ennis would never be capable of anything more and moved on to find the kind of happiness that he needed with someone else. Ending up in Mexico could not have been much of a joy despite the carnal release it provided.
Jack should have finally learned. What he had was basically a "one night stand" that played sporadically for twenty years.
I think Jack finally *does* learn. He eventually hooks up with Randall, right? There is a lot of reading between the lines in Jack's relationship with him, but it's pretty clear that Jack finally told his folks about someone other than Ennis del Mar.
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There's something in the Ennis/Alma family Thanksgiving scene that confuses me: On television there is a skating competition - and in the credits there is a credit for the 1980 Canada Pairs competition (in the Olympics). Yet in the 'Story to Screenplay' it is supposed to occur in 1978. Have I missed something or misattributed what is on TV there? In the Twist thanksgiving it is pretty clearly Thanksgiving 1977 as the announcer on the television Bobby is watching refers to the top defensive player of 1977. Help.
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Okay - well either I'm a romantic idealist or you are - relationships are never pragmatic, open, straightforward to interpret - they are always messy and partial. Abuse is a strong word, my friend, for a failure to know yourself... I'm startled by anyone who can't sympathise (even if empathy is outside their domain) for Ennis whilst they also sympathise with Jack (and of course all three women too). The film I hope, for most of us at least, challenges the reductionist (and Hollywood!) belief that good relationships become straightforward and life should be about minimising pain.
I'm with you 100%. I don't like people jumping all over Ennis. I don't see him as an "abuser" anymore than I see Jack as a "predator." Ennis barely had a life cause he'd sacrificed everything for his brief times with Jack. I do wish we saw a little bit more of the Ennis in the story, who at least would say something positive from time to time. As it is, what he have, and probably what Jack had, was the Ennis on Brokeback Mountain--who was strong and generous.
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can one ever be totally objective when circumstances center around feelings from the heart?
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I'd call 20 years of rejection or stringing someone along when you know you can't commit abuse.
But Ennis was *very clear* that he could not commit in the way Jack wished him to. It wasn't a secret which he used to string Jack along. Jack hoped for a better outcome, but he knew the deal.
Ennis was inarticulate and emotionally inaccessible, and, yes, he clearly was unable to commit fully to his relationship with Jack (as Jack so deserved). But emotionally abusive? No. At least not in the knowing, purposeful sense that you're implying.
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Wrong wrote: "I'd call 20 years of rejection or stringing someone along when you know you can't commit abuse. pull you in, cut you loose, pull you in, cut you loose. Or more plainly, love you, reject you, love you , reject you. We see the toll it takes on Jack through the years. pretty sad."
I don't think he was stringing Jack along. And I don't think he was rejecting him either. Ennis sacrificed to be with Jack. But there was never a hint that he was going to give more. Sure, Jack hoped for more. And he suffered because he didn't get it. THey both did. I think when you use language like "when you know you can't commit," you're not describing Ennis. THat's not the way his mind worked. I think you'd act differently in Jack's shoes. More power to you. But in the fictional story, it is perfectly believable to me that Jack stuck around all those years. He had hope. But I think in that final look of the older Jack as Ennis drives away we can see that his hope has finally died.
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can one ever be totally objective when circumstances center around feelings from the heart?
I don't quite understand all this anger toward Ennis.
It's alright to say that Jack has got his tough time with Ennis by being "rejected". Yet rejection seems to be arguable in this impossible relationship.
I like to think both of them are struggling the best they could to keep their relationship alive.
When Ennis said "if you can't fix if...", it's exactly the way this couple is going to work their way out.
Let's face it:
Ennis has always wanted children and it's why he is torn apart between his responsibility to wards her girls and his love for Jack. And I think we can see he was not rejecting Jack on the second truck scene.
He was just torn apart between his desire and his duty.
How can anyone forget the first ever heartbreaking scene of this film when Ennis turn into that alley street, when his pain was so strong to see Jack driving away, that he actually felt sick. So sick that he could not stand, a strong big man like him! There is no word to express my sadness whenever I recall this. His initial indifference to let Jack go after their summer job is just part of his self discovering. And he did tell Jack that it took him more than a year to realize what really happened on that day. But then it was all too late by then.
From these and many other points I fell that Ennis is like some of you said a very inarticulate person trapped and haunted by the memory of the dead man he saw when he was a child. Without help, he will never be able to give Jack more than he could. And if anyone feels that it's always too little and too late, then I suggest you to think again. And unless you have experienced the same level of desperation, I cannot see how you can be so negative about either of these tortured souls.
marius
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Something I've been thinking about since the first time I saw Brokeback (I'm up to five times now and am going again tomorrow!). When Alma and Ennis are in the kitchen and she starts to talk to him about getting married again, Ennis' reply is a flippant "Once bitten...". I took this to mean he blamed Alma for the dissolution of their marriage, maybe because she wasn't the one he really wanted (which was, of course, Jack). IMO, this is what triggered Alma's release of anger and rage that she had been holding back for years.
Does anyone else feel that if Alma hadn't exploded, letting Ennis know that she knew the real reason behind the "fishing trips", that Ennis eventually might have been more open to Jack's suggestion of a life together? That one moment solidified, at least to me, in the mind of Ennis his greatest fear: that people could "see" his desire for Jack and therefore he was risking his life and Jack's by being together.
Just a thought.
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Five times, girl? "Once Burned..."
listen more closely. Although, I know you think you hear "Once bitten, twice shy.."
It's also been "Once burned, twice shy.." aswell.
I think either way, Alma would've let it come out sometime.
And I don't think Ennis would've changed much...
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I thought Ennis said to Jack "next month then..." I don't call that a rejection. He hadn't sent the usual message let's go fishing or anything. Jack took it upon himself to drive 1200 miles in the hopes of spending the time together. He was too fast on the draw this time.
Still it was heartbreaking...
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Wrong wrote: "I'd call 20 years of rejection or stringing someone along when you know you can't commit abuse. pull you in, cut you loose, pull you in, cut you loose. Or more plainly, love you, reject you, love you , reject you. We see the toll it takes on Jack through the years. pretty sad."
I don't think he was stringing Jack along. And I don't think he was rejecting him either. Ennis sacrificed to be with Jack. But there was never a hint that he was going to give more. Sure, Jack hoped for more. And he suffered because he didn't get it. THey both did. I think when you use language like "when you know you can't commit," you're not describing Ennis. THat's not the way his mind worked. I think you'd act differently in Jack's shoes. More power to you. But in the fictional story, it is perfectly believable to me that Jack stuck around all those years. He had hope. But I think in that final look of the older Jack as Ennis drives away we can see that his hope has finally died.
This is a good point. Ennis puts forth his boundaries right after they reunite..."Now we can get together once in a while..." and Jack accepts it. He doesn't like it, but he knows that's all Ennis can handle. He just didn't know at the time, perhaps, that it was also something he COULDN'T handle--he would want much more than Ennis could give.
That happens in so many relationships--no matter how wonderful, there is something, or some time, when you can't give the other person exactly what they want. This was certainly a more extreme example. Ennis didn't have money, a therapist, the personality,or any kind of world experience to help him handle the situation. Jack does understand and accept this. It's just that in the end, he realizes it will never be enough for him. He could have stopped going on trips with Ennis at any point throughout the 20 years. But he loved Ennis. Can't blame Ennis for that, even though we can certainly find many flaws and much responsibility in his role.
That said, I think the scene of Jack driving to Mexico is just about one of the hardest to bear in the whole movie. And that's a tribute to Jake's acting.
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In response the the difference in the relationships between Ennis and his girls and Jack and his son:
In general (Oedipal and Electra complexes) boys bond with their mothers and girls worship their daddies. So, to me, these relationships seemed absolutely on track.
And Jack's "Smiles a lot" line seems pitch perfect to me because the situation (meeting the wife of the man you love after you were just kissing him 2 seconds ago) is so awkward. Also, in the book, there is mention of how hard Jack is shaking and the electricity that passes when he and Ennis brush hands. So it makes sense that his brain is a bit overwhelmed and he spits out the first thought in his head. I loved it!
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......The discussion about the Jack/Ennis relationship here has been interesting and it does seem that Jack's disillusionment was real, though it did take a few more years to finally surge through, with a crash, during the final encounter between them. I think this is what we see in the contrast between the two images of Gyllenhaal's face when he gazes at the departing Ennis - adoringly in the perfect flashback, but haunted and desperate in the later image that immediately follows it.
Oh, what an expressive face! Among my favorite Jack faces: 1. The shot when Ennis is bathing, 2. The come-on to the clown, and 3. the reaction to Randall's come-on. Each of these gestures is reductionism at its finest. If the script is beautifully tight, Jack's faces more than do it justice.
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Well, I'm glad there are some people taking up for Ennis. I DO think Ennis defines his boundaries because of his fears, but all in all, I think Ennis was by far the more honest of the two characters. As already stated, Ennis never leads Jack on in regards to the terms of their relationship. In fact, he tells Jack this more than once. Remember the line, "I already told you, it ain't gonna be that way. I'm stuck with what I got." He then goes on to tell Jack, "Two guys living together? No. We can get together every once in awhile way the hell out in the back of nowhere..." And this is the way Ennis defined the relationship for Jack and the way it was for 20 years. Ennis never, not once, led Jack to expect anything more than that.
Remember Jack was the romantic. Lureen says so on the phone with Ennis. "But knowing Jack, it might be some pretend place where the bluebirds sing and there is a whiskey spring." Jack's father says so when he tells Ennis, "But like most a Jack's ideas it never come to pass." Proulx makes sure we understand the heart of a romantic beats in Jack. Even though Ennis was always upfront with Jack and very clear of his boundaries, Jack still dreams a romantic's dreams. I'm sorry, but I personally think that a partner so clearly defining his boundaries is the opposite of any sort of emotional abuse. Ennis gave Jack everything he told him he would. He even told him, "ain't no reins on this one" signaling to Jack that as long as he was willing to accept the limits, then their relationship could go on forever.
The other thing that no one seems to mention is that Jack certainly had other options with Ennis and with his own life. Why does Jack wait four years to find Ennis? Why doesn't Jack ever divorce Lureen and move closer to Ennis so maybe they can spend more time together? Why is it that Ennis always has to give up his life in order to be with Jack? Ennis quits his jobs, so they can spend time together. Jack accepts this even though he knows Ennis is poor and has a family. If Jack lived in Wyoming they could spend more time together and do it on Ennis' normal days off, so they could see one another without Ennis quitting the jobs.
Jack asks Ennis to move to Texas away from his children. Jack throws a fit because Ennis can't get time off a job he needs to keep (to pay child support) even though Jack stays in a cushy situation 1200 miles away where he has no financial worries and can take off when he wants. Jack tells Ennis he wants to quit him, even though we never hear Ennis make such a nasty comment to Jack. Jack pressures Ennis to give him more than Ennis can give to him. Jack shows a willingness to toss aside his son for Ennis, but Ennis refuses to cut his daughters from his life, even for Jack. In my view, Jack always demands and demands from Ennis in spite of what Ennis makes clear he can give, and really, even though he says he is willling to do so, never gives up anything much in return. Who is it that loses the most due to this relationship (not counting the emotional hardship which affects both of them equally)? It ain't Jack Twist.
We even see this on the mountain. Who is it that won't eat beans? Who hates sleeping with the sheep in the pup tent that smells like cat piss? Who insists on illegally killing an elk? It is always Jack wanting more. And who takes care of him? Ennis. Throughout the movie, Jack always wants more, and Ennis gives him all that he possibly can while remaining true to the last part of himself he can (a good cowboy and a father who provides for his children). Jack would take that from of him as well if Ennis would let him.
Don't get me wrong. I love the character of Jack Twist, and I feel his need and his pain. I also understand the romantic and the dreamer who often finds the dream and the wish safer and more secure than the hard, cold reality. I don't begrudge Jack for what he wanted, nor for what Ennis gives up for him. However, in my opinion, to suggest that Jack is a poor victim who has to endure a lifetime of emotional abuse at the hands of Ennis is a far cry from the truth of the movie I watched and the book I read. Both of these men are victims, but not of one another. They are victims of a society that says two men can't love and can't live together and remain part of their community or remain true to the men they are supposed to be.
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Well, I'm glad there are some people taking up for Ennis. I DO think Ennis defines his boundaries because of his fears, but all in all, I think Ennis was by far the more honest of the two characters. As already stated, Ennis never leads Jack on in regards to the terms of their relationship. In fact, he tells Jack this more than once. Remember the line, "I already told you, it ain't gonna be that way. I'm stuck with what I got." He then goes on to tell Jack, "Two guys living together? No. We can get together every once in awhile way the hell out in the back of nowhere..." And this is the way Ennis defined the relationship for Jack and the way it was for 20 years. Ennis never, not once, led Jack to expect anything more than that.
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Don't get me wrong. I love the character of Jack Twist, and I feel his need and his pain. I also understand the romantic and the dreamer who often finds the dream and the wish safer and more secure than the hard, cold reality. I don't begrudge Jack for what he wanted, nor for what Ennis gives up for him. However, in my opinion, to suggest that Jack is a poor victim who has to endure a lifetime of emotional abuse at the hands of Ennis is a far cry from the truth of the movie I watched and the book I read. Both of these men are victims, but not of one another. They are victims of a society that says two men can't love and can't live together and remain part of their community or remain true to the men they are supposed to be.
Thank you pete, I've felt the condemnations of Ennis almost viscerally myself. I agree both of these men suffer but I never doubted that they love each other and tried to make the relationship work as best they could. If I thought otherwise I don't think the story would move me as much as it does. They have so many obstacles to overcome, some in their own minds but they didn't get there without some basis in their life experience
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michael -- you've really done your research! i think that maybe this was just a slip up. maybe they just wanted to have ice skating on the television to show the difference between jack's house (football) and monroe's house (skating), and ang wasn't too concerned with the actual date of the skating as it related to the movie. what's amazing is that you caught the name of the top defensive player!! who was it? and was there anything overheard from the tv when the skating was shown?
bookgirl -- that scene has me thinking too... it seems alma was kinda pissed off from the start. maybe because she was pregnant and possibly feeling irritable or under the weather? it seems that the comment ennis made about the girl's "wings" (as he tugs on jenny's ear) got her goat too -- as if the alma jr's and jenny's ears (maybe he felt they stuck out, unlike his?) were from alma's side of the family, and not his... after he said that, alma had an angry look on her face. then, they cut away to the scene of monroe hacking away at the turkey with the electric knife.
so, when she's in the kitchen, she's already seething, or so it seems. maybe she just had to work up the courage, and anger, to approach ennis. while alma starts it off with "me and the girls worry about you being alone so much..." she then starts in with her recounting of the tackle box note.. it seems that ang lee wanted to convey that she had been planning to say this to him, to finally let him know that she knew about his trysts. it was a delicate subject, something she'd been holding in for YEARS, and finally, it came out.
it's odd that she chose to do this on thanksgiving, with the girls and her new husband in the other room, but it sure made for a great, explosive scene.
to answer your question, yes, perhaps it solidified ennis' fears with this scene. it certainly set him off! but somehow i don't feel that without it ennis might have been more open to jack and their living together. my feeling is that ennis was so trapped in a cycle of fear that hardly anything would have changed his mind, except of course, the loss of jack. "you don't know what you've got till it's gone" type of thing...
i love how ennis says, about his bronc riding career, "...only about three seconds i was on that bronc, and the next thing i knew i was flyyyyin' through the air..." it's so cute how he says "flyin'."
ennis was effective at charming his children and maybe that's why alma was angry, because she felt ennis was trying to show up monroe, or something... maybe she was angry that ennis wasn't all he was cracked up to be, that she really did still love him, and would rather be with him than with monroe. ennis was, afterall, her first true love, and he was the father of her children. his secret ruined her marriage, her dreams were shattered, and their marriage vows fell to the wayside. her heart was broken. it's no wonder she spouted out "jack nasty!"
it's so sad, really... but the destruction of family life in the movie is excellently portrayed, showing viewers how homophobia can ruin the lives of men and also the people around them.
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michael -- you've really done your research! i think that maybe this was just a slip up. maybe they just wanted to have ice skating on the television to show the difference between jack's house (football) and monroe's house (skating), and ang wasn't too concerned with the actual date of the skating as it related to the movie. what's amazing is that you caught the name of the top defensive player!! who was it? and was there anything overheard from the tv when the skating was shown?
Gnash, you're probably right about the placement of the skating - and I should add that I _really_ wasn't looking for flaws - I just noticed that it was Olympics related and was trying to figure out if that was really a Thanksgiving scene (this was before I got the Screenplay) - and was confused since the Winter Olympics happen in February.
As to the defensive player - SORRY!!! I didn't take the name down in my notes - just that they say 'top defensive player of 1977' in that scene.
When it comes to sports I'm kind of like the dog in the Gary Larson cartoon (blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, GINGER, blah, blah, blah).
_Maybe_ I'll listen for this on time 5 (which - I'm pacing myself here - I'll do next week).
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so, when she's in the kitchen, she's already seething, or so it seems. maybe she just had to work up the courage, and anger, to approach ennis. while alma starts it off with "me and the girls worry about you being alone so much..." she then starts in with her recounting of the tackle box note.. it seems that ang lee wanted to convey that she had been planning to say this to him, to finally let him know that she knew about his trysts. it was a delicate subject, something she'd been holding in for YEARS, and finally, it came out.
Gnash. I'm in total agreement. Alma looked mad all through the scene at the table, and I took her kitchen-sink comment ("Me and the girls,"etc.) as an awkward way of getting into the subject she really wanted to talk about. She probably resented the girls' unreasonable (from her point of view) devotion to Ennis. In fact, this scene that makes me think that in the future she would probably be dropping spiteful insinuations about Ennis and Jack to AlmaJr and Jenny. Never coming out and telling; just hinting.
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Peter, Mary, (is there a Paul in there) thanks you guys for standing up for Ennis. These were two wonderful loveable and falible men. Maybe just like the rest of us.
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Why doesn't Jack ever divorce Lureen and move closer to Ennis so maybe they can spend more time together? Why is it that Ennis always has to give up his life in order to be with Jack? Ennis quits his jobs, so they can spend time together. Jack accepts this even though he knows Ennis is poor and has a family. If Jack lived in Wyoming they could spend more time together and do it on Ennis' normal days off, so they could see one another without Ennis quitting the jobs.
I thought about this too, but wondered if Ennis would really let that happen. When Jack drives up after the divorce, Ennis is concerned about what someone driving past on the road might think while he and Jack are talking. In Ennis' mind, spending all that time together would have been a little too close to living together, and I think Ennis would have rejected it as readily as he rejected every other suggestion Jack made.
I can't help but sympathize with the romantic in Jack. He needs Ennis in a way that Ennis never comprehends.
I also wonder if Ennis' devotion to his daughters is not partly colored by the traditional, hetero, family screen it provides for him -- something Jack was always ready to toss aside.
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Why doesn't Jack ever divorce Lureen and move closer to Ennis so maybe they can spend more time together? Why is it that Ennis always has to give up his life in order to be with Jack? Ennis quits his jobs, so they can spend time together. Jack accepts this even though he knows Ennis is poor and has a family. If Jack lived in Wyoming they could spend more time together and do it on Ennis' normal days off, so they could see one another without Ennis quitting the jobs.
I thought about this too, but wondered if Ennis would really let that happen. When Jack drives up after the divorce, Ennis is concerned about what someone driving past on the road might think while he and Jack are talking. In Ennis' mind, spending all that time together would have been a little too close to living together, and I think Ennis would have rejected it as readily as he rejected every other suggestion Jack made.
Well, I'd ask if the story, expertly crafted as it is, rests upon the physical distance between them. Doesn't Proulx need that device to create loneliness, despair, longing, regret, as well as exhilaration, passion, and, above all, hope? Yes, J could call E and suggest they move to Denver but, if he did that, we would not all be here.
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Well, I'd ask if the story, expertly crafted as it is, rests upon the physical distance between them. Doesn't Proulx need that device to create loneliness, despair, longing, regret, as well as exhilaration, passion, and, above all, hope? Yes, J could call E and suggest they move to Denver but, if he did that, we would not all be here.
Well, I think it's unfair to say it's just a device; this ongoing situation develops organically from the characters' histories and personalities. As Scot5636 pointed out, Ennis wouldn't have been able to tolerate living closer to Jack (regardless of who made the move) because his own paranoia about the relationship and self-loathing wouldn't have permitted it.
As Ennis said, they could "meet out in the middle of nowhere every once in awhile"--but that was about the extent of it. IMHO, this "arrangement", though deeply unsatisfying for Jack, allowed Ennis to compartmentalize his relationship with Jack and thereby make it easier for him to cope with his inner torment. To "stand it."
Though, we know that by the final fishing trip, Ennis's stoicism had given way to the admission that he couldn't stand it anymore...
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but but but,, what about the ears??? LOL
i think that phrase was included to anger alma. maybe that was another reason for her to take a jab at ennis in the kitchen. angel wings! hahaha. eeks. if you take ennis' "once burned" comment in relationship to his "only i didn't have wings like you" line, it makes sense that there was mutual tension going on between both alma and ennis. ennis, on edge as he was sitting in the dining room of his wife's new husband, and alma, having to endure the unease of hosting her ex in her new husband's home.
castro -- i agree on the devotion line of thought.. i can't read into the future, but i did sense that alma, especially with alma jr. probably did talk to her about the trips. i mean, a teenager isn't going to ignore the fact that her mom is so depressed and sullen when daddy goes "fishin'."
when alma jr. tells cassie "maybe he's not the marryin' kind" it seemed to me that it implied that maybe alma jr. was a little more perceptive about her father than the movie let on...
michael -- i will look for that line coming out of the TV at the twist house next time. i'm pacing myself too. once a week at most for a while!
sports? it's the same for me. i don't even know what a first down means. but i did perk up when i saw ice skating on monroe's tv. i'm a huge fan of (especially the male) skaters. i hate the quad. so many try but they usually blow it. i'd rather see a flawless performance with a triple or two, than attempts at a quad that fails.
i cried from the sheer beauty of it all when rudy gallindo skated to swan lake in his hometown of san jose a long while ago... he was like a delicate snowflake, a butterfly fluid and graceful. and openly gay to boot. soo loved it.
i'm such a fag! lol -- no offense to the straight gays on this board ;D
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sports? it's the same for me. i don't even know what a first down means. but i did perk up when i saw ice skating on monroe's tv. i'm a huge fan of (especially the male) skaters. i hate the quad. so many try but they usually blow it. i'd rather see a flawless performance with a triple or two, than attempts at a quad that fails.
i cried from the sheer beauty of it all when rudy gallindo skated to swan lake in his hometown of san jose a long while ago... he was like a delicate snowflake, a butterfly fluid and graceful. and openly gay to boot. soo loved it.
i'm such a fag! lol -- no offense to the straight gays on this board ;D
rotfl...hmmm...well, I was a Jr. High Basketball Cheerleader (before I went all Symbionese Liberation Army)...does that count as sports? Still I'm into sports enough that I'd be willing to buy Bode Miller a six-pack.
Me, I'm not so big a fan of the skating - but I'm a big fan of Canada, so when I saw in the credits that it was Canadian doubles I perked right up - and I'm pretty sure that's what is on in the Monroe/Alma household.
I was unable to pick out which football game (which teams - what bowl game) was being played in 1977 (at the Twist household), but I'll keep an eye out for that too.
There is a credit for an Edmonton boxing match in 1978, but I don't recall where that was in the movie either.
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I'm not sure I think it is a device either.
I'm going to answer my own question (when I asked why Jack does not move closer to Ennis). I don't think Jack CAN leave his life and move closer to Ennis. We know Jack is a romantic, a dreamer. It is the nature of dreamers to dream the impossible dream knowing that they can never have it.
I think Jack and Ennis both realize that their relationship only works as an ideal and that it would never work as a true functioning day-to-day relationship. Their relationship is hermetically sealed as a perfect place to which each of them can escape. But this perfect place is only obtained through isolation in the natural world and through the scarcity of their couplings. The depth of their love is maintained through the years because for each of them that love represents the best of themselves and the best of their lives. You know, one can make it through the shitty weeks and months if one knows that a perfect place awaits him (where he is a perfect man) two or three times a year. I think one would learn to hold onto that and to understand that it is such a perfect and special time because of its rarity. I think Jack knows this and does not want to jeopardize the mythical BBM.
I also think Jack has become accustomed to the good life he has in Texas and the cover his marriage allows him in pursuit of both Ennis and of other sexual trysts. Jack is also a cowboy, and in spite of his romantic nature, he is as aware of Ennis of the dangers that await a public display of his sexuality. We see in the second truck scene Ennis looking at the truck driving past he and Jack, but Jack sees both the truck and Ennis reaction to it, and I think he fully understands and accepts what it is Ennis fears. I think Jack fears it too; however, he cannot help but be true to his nature and hope against all hope that the dream can be true.
"It can be like this, just like this, always." It gives the reader/viewer hope that the tragic elements can be overcome; however both Ennis AND Jack both know the lie that statement represents. Jack ain't no dummy.
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There are two parallel alley scenes in the movie. The first is Ennis in the alley, heartbroken after he and Jack say goodbye after the summer on BBM. The other is Jake in the alley in Mexico, heartbroken after saying goodbye to his dream of a domestic life with Ennis. This is the thread to compare or contrast those scenes or to talk about them individually.
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micheal -- i don't remember which scene the boxing clip was featured, either... i saw that in the credits. and kojak? is that shown when ennis is drinking beer and alma wants to smarten up for the church social? i remember a guy is pointing a gun at somebody as he walks into the room... try as i might, i can't remember what is said on the screen then... i never thought to bring a pen and pad! i *have* thought of recording the movie on cassette tape -- but i'm hoping to get a screener from a friend; her dad is a producer in hollywood.
i thought it was very sweet how the girls sat prim and proper to watch the skating in monroe's living room. such good posture! then, as they witness, or hear, the fight and see daddy running off, they're just as composed -- it's as if they've seen this type of behaviour from their father for years. they just skip outside and say "bye daddy!" a couple of times as he storms off.
it's like the bittersweet swingset scene. ennis says, "you girls need a push or somethin?" they just look up and almost sigh, "noo." even at an early age, they're nonplussed by his temper. plus, and i know this isn't about thankgsiving, i couldn't help but notice the design on the metal poles of the swingset: graphics of explosions. it described his temper and was a harkening back to the fourth of july.
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that's cool you're were a cheerleader. i have a set of pom poms in my closet (heh). i hope that's what they're called -- i never cheered in HS but couldn't resist getting these fabulous things at the thrift store. they're rather fun, and the noise they make is soothing, somehow. plus, they're green and yellow. aren't those "packers" colors? heh.
yo canada! you owe it to yourself to vacation in alberta then! i grew up a couple of miles south of the border in north dakota, and did most of our "big shopping" in regina, saskatchewan. i adore canada too, i think i sent you that picture of me and the mountie. :D
but blah blah blah bode miller? must be a dribbler, i wouldn't know! sounds sexy enought tho. it's funny you mention the SLA. my friend lived across the street from patty when she was abducted. his take on it? she loved black men, LOL, and he wasn't surprised that she was taken by them. she lived on the street that's one block west of college avenue. forgot the name, but it was just above ashby in the elmwood district.
hmmm... now that i think of it, there's no reason why the official unofficial brokeback mountain cheerleading squad isn't formed, and practicing.. i mean, c'mon. oscar night? go team!
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But, juxtapose that image with his absolute willingness to abandon all of it if Ennis will just give him the green light.
But you don't think he would have "abandoned" his son, do you? I just can't see either Jack or Ennis abandoning their children.
Cara
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There are two parallel alley scenes in the movie. The first is Ennis in the alley, heartbroken after he and Jack say goodbye after the summer on BBM. The other is Jake in the alley in Mexico, heartbroken after saying goodbye to his dream of a domestic life with Ennis. This is the thread to compare or contrast those scenes or to talk about them individually.
Hi PIP,
Thanks for opening this thread.
I've been wondering for a while why there isn't much discussion about the first alley scene. Which in my view is so revealing. It is the first time we see Ennis struggling with the split up, in his own way. Hidden, discreet, and always alone.
It also gave us a preview of what his relationship with Jack will bring upon. The self oppressing desire that cannot be silenced. The compromise between reality and their dream life. The constant pain that they carry along. Watching Heath's acting in full power, I felt like someone punched me in the stomach when I saw this scene for the second time. And again no words needed. His face also was hidden just like when he finally broke down in front of Jack many years later in their last goodbye scene. He is someone who is slow to realize his own feelings. And when he is in pain, he can hardly express or show it, even to Jack.
There is indeed a parallel to draw with Jack's Mexican escapade.
For Jack finding an artificial confort there, doesn't give anyone any confort. Himself looked just as if he were going to a funeral. A more usual reaction for us who witness it situation should be anger. Anger, because one is feeling betrayed by infidelity. And yet, all I felt was sadness. That for two people deeply in love there is no control of their own fate. The fact that Jack was looking for physical confort becomes more forgiveable. Even though deep down I felt my heart sunk when I realize what he was in this alley for.
The one point I'd like to draw attention to is Ennis was not aware of his psychological state. In A.P. short story, he said to Jack in the motel scene that it took him "about a year to figure out that I shouldn't a let you out a my sights. Too late then by a long, long while". Whereas Jack knew where they stand. He drove to Mexico fully aware about what the situation was and what he was looking for. It doesn't undermine in my view his love and commitment for Ennis. It just as I said earlier, sadden me a lot. Maybe because there is a personal element involved. Maybe because it could happen to anyone of us. And without knowing the story behind no one should be judgemental.
Marius
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I also think Jack has become accustomed to the good life he has in Texas and the cover his marriage allows him in pursuit of both Ennis and of other sexual trysts.
Actually, I would respectfully disagree with you, Pete. While certainly we can say, objectively, that Jack & Ennis's relationship became an "ideal" in the sense that a day-to-day context would have changed the nature of the relationship, I don't for a second doubt that Jack was genuine and sincere in his wanting to get a ranch with Ennis. This was what motivated him to get up every day, it consumed his thoughts. I really don't think he feared for his life--or, at the very least, he underestimated the danger and/or was willing to take the risk. I read a review which noted that Jack's tragic flaw may have been his nativete, and I couldn't agree more. The film made the point to portray Jack as the consummate idealist, and this included not fully appreciating--or perhaps willfully ignoring--the potential negative consequences of living together with a man.
Also, the only reason Jack pursued the "other sexual trysts" was because he couldn't have this life with Ennis and couldn't spend enough time with the love of his life ("never enough time"). It was a way to compensate for the loneliness and his yearning for Ennis the 49-50 weeks of the year they were apart. But it didn't make him happy-- just look at his forlorn, far-off expressions in Mexico and with Randall.
What did make Jack happy was holding onto the hope that eventually Ennis would come around. IMHO, Jack would have dropped *everything* to be with Ennis had he indicated he was ready. Heck, we pretty much saw that when Jack drove hundreds of miles after the divorce, showing up on Ennis's doorstep, and announcing, "So here I am!" The earnestness with which he delivers this line is heartbreaking--because we know that Ennis isn't capable of this commitment.
Put differently, recognizing that Jack is a dreamer, we can objectively say that his dream might have been dangerously naive or unrealistic. But I think it's incorrect to conclude that Jack didn't genuinely and whole-heartedly desire this dream to come true. He totally did. And the failure of this dream to materialize is one of the movie's most poignant tragedies for me. THAT is the power of the last shot of Jack in the movie--defeated, disillusioned, and heartbroken.
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I'm not sure I think it is a device either.
I'm going to answer my own question (when I asked why Jack does not move closer to Ennis). I don't think Jack CAN leave his life and move closer to Ennis. We know Jack is a romantic, a dreamer. It is the nature of dreamers to dream the impossible dream knowing that they can never have it.
I think Jack and Ennis both realize that their relationship only works as an ideal and that it would never work as a true functioning day-to-day relationship. Their relationship is hermetically sealed as a perfect place to which each of them can escape. But this perfect place is only obtained through isolation in the natural world and through the scarcity of their couplings. The depth of their love is maintained through the years because for each of them that love represents the best of themselves and the best of their lives. You know, one can make it through the shitty weeks and months if one knows that a perfect place awaits him (where he is a perfect man) two or three times a year. I think one would learn to hold onto that and to understand that it is such a perfect and special time because of its rarity. I think Jack knows this and does not want to jeopardize the mythical BBM.
I also think Jack has become accustomed to the good life he has in Texas and the cover his marriage allows him in pursuit of both Ennis and of other sexual trysts. Jack is also a cowboy, and in spite of his romantic nature, he is as aware of Ennis of the dangers that await a public display of his sexuality. We see in the second truck scene Ennis looking at the truck driving past he and Jack, but Jack sees both the truck and Ennis reaction to it, and I think he fully understands and accepts what it is Ennis fears. I think Jack fears it too; however, he cannot help but be true to his nature and hope against all hope that the dream can be true.
"It can be like this, just like this, always." It gives the reader/viewer hope that the tragic elements can be overcome; however both Ennis AND Jack both know the lie that statement represents. Jack ain't no dummy.
I think you are right on! I had wondered about that moment where Jack follows Ennis's gaze out to the truck, then looks back at him.
BBM is Eden to J and E. In some ways, it's more than what most of us ever have--the perfect idyll for a perfect love. But Jack cannot help but want more...for E it's already more than he ever thought he'd have in the first place, and better in his mind to preserve it for what it is rather than try for more.
I can't help but think of an alternate universe where J and E get together and start having fights and relationship issues, just like any ol' married couple. So much for "it can be...JUST like this, always!" But of course that would no longer be grand epic tragedy, just mundane everyday life...
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For Jack finding an artificial confort there, doesn't give anyone any confort. Himself looked just as if he were going to a funeral. A more usual reaction for us who witness it situation should be anger. Anger, because one is feeling betrayed by infidelity. And yet, all I felt was sadness. That for two people deeply in love there is no control of their own fate. The fact that Jack was looking for physical confort becomes more forgiveable. Even though deep down I felt my heart sunk when I realize what he was in this alley for.
I didn't feel anger at infidelity in Jack's alley scene. I felt he was just gettin the equivalent of a stiff drink. Drownin his sorrows. Probly thinkin of Ennis the whole time he was with the other guy. I felt frustration for Jack. Pity for Ennis.
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The wonder of this film is the restraint and ambiguity built into it. It encourages us to think deeply about what we have witnessed and to make sense of it all. Not all of us will ever agree on all of the details or their meaning. Here is my take on the Twist Thanksgiving Scene and why it is that it was included when, without a doubt, the challenge for the editing was to shorten an arguably overlong story.
It is my take on things that L.D. NUSOME, an arch-homophobe (they always read less-than-macho behavior as being suspiciously faggy!) had concluded that Jack was homosexual from the early days of Jack's relationship with Lureen. She was the sort of spoiled child who always eventually got her way and so L.D.'s attempt at discouraging her headlong determination to marry Jack had been thwarted. Jack makes reference to the disdain his father-in-law had for him in conversations with Ennis, going so far as to say that L.D. would part with money to Jack if he would disappear. The details of the interaction between L.D. and Jack at the Thanksgiving table makes clear that the father-in-law despised the husband of his daughter and that it was his sexual orientation which was the focus of his hate. When Jack took control of the "Television, Off/On" situation and, in essence, humiliated L.D. in front of his grandson, wife and daughter, WELL, NO ONE HUMILIATES L.D.! Especially not a faggot!!! Lureen's poorly contained glee over this may have been a sign of support for her husband's masterfulness, but was in character for the snotty response of the spoiled child she was of her father. On many levels, this scene rang spot-on.
Furthermore, my take about Jack's end is that the flash-scene portraying the lethal assault represented both Ennis' fears and reality. It makes sense to me that L.D. contracted for the death of Jack out of his having been humiliated by Jack, who he had regarded as the unworthy spouse of his beloved daughter, who in his eyes could do no wrong. Ungrateful Jack, who L.D. had groomed to take over his business and be the recipient of his financial largesse, who wasn't cautiously containing of his sexual behavior, was probably discovered by L.D., perhaps accidentally as the work foreman had earlier,. That this unworthy faggot-wretch was cheating on L.D.'s daughter would have been the switch towards murder. He also had the fear of all homophobes, that his presence in their lives would taint the grandson and make him a faggot, too. So Jack sealed his fate at the Thanksgiving table. It neatly condenses consequence of homophobia AND the naiveté many gays have that it is always safe to defend our positions against the bullying of homophobes. Clearly Jack had been "right," as host of the dinner, to prevail at the table. But, oh, the consequences.
Lureen's description of the details of Jack's death, then, were untruths to protect her father. Ennis knew, not in the details but in reality, what happened to Jack. Poor, simple and complex, "hungup" Ennis, had been right all along. Heart searing.
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I'm repostin a comment I had elsewhere earlier cause it's about Ennis' alley scene:
The scene that gets me is when Jack and Ennis seperate after that first summer, when Ennis is on his knees tryin to throw-up between the two buildings. I don't know about all of y'all, but I tend to be all tough and stonefaced during times like that. God's truth, sometimes I dunno something needs to come out til I literally get home and throw-up or just go BOOM and throw something across the room, then cry a tear or two and then go on with life. Man, that scene today. I just couldn't look at it a second time and I almost threw up when I got home. Man, that's Rough. Great film, but I doubt I'll go see it again.
That scene was the punch in the gut for me and says the most, I think about suppression and how Ennis and those like him don't acknowledge and handle their emotions.
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But you don't think he would have "abandoned" his son, do you? I just can't see either Jack or Ennis abandoning their children.
Cara
I can't imagine how else Jack could move to Wyoming with Ennis. Not that he would abandon him emotionally, but even a dreamer like Jack would have to see that his son would be better off with his mother -- financial security, the emotional issues of moving to another state, not to mention daddy's new husband. The scene after the divorce certainly indicates that Jack would drop anything to be with Ennis.
As to Ennis -- he certainly loves his daughters. But in the reunion scene, as he's getting ready to "go fishing" with Jack, he gives Alma Jr. a cursory peck on the cheek, and hands her off to Alma as quickly as he can. There's also the scene in the grocery store where Ennis clearly conveys that his needs are more important, and if the children get in the way, you hand them off to Alma. I've also said in another thread that I believe part of Ennis devotion to his daughters stems from the cover they provide him.
These are flawed characters caught up in something that is bigger than both of them. And like Ennis says -- there's no reigns. Who's to say what they would do if it really were possible for them to be together.
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Furthermore, my take about Jack's end is that the flash-scene portraying the lethal assault represented both Ennis' fears and reality. It makes sense to me that L.D. contracted for the death of Jack out of his having been humiliated by Jack, who he had regarded as the unworthy spouse of his beloved daughter, who in his eyes could do no wrong. Ungrateful Jack, who L.D. had groomed to take over his business and be the recipient of his financial largesse, who wasn't cautiously containing of his sexual behavior, was probably discovered by L.D., perhaps accidentally as the work foreman had earlier,. That this unworthy faggot-wretch was cheating on L.D.'s daughter would have been the switch towards murder. He also had the fear of all homophobes, that his presence in their lives would taint the grandson and make him a faggot, too. So Jack sealed his fate at the Thanksgiving table. It neatly condenses consequence of homophobia AND the naiveté many gays have that it is always safe to defend our positions against the bullying of homophobes. Clearly Jack had been "right," as host of the dinner, to prevail at the table. But, oh, the consequences.
Lureen's description of the details of Jack's death, then, were untruths to protect her father. Ennis knew, not in the details but in reality, what happened to Jack. Poor, simple and complex, "hungup" Ennis, had been right all along. Heart searing.
The story makes clear that, by the time of Jack's death, LD has died and Lurene has inherited the business. That isn't so clear in the movie, though Lurene has clearly taken over running the business. I'm still of the mind that the bashing scene is all in Ennis' head.
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I also think Jack has become accustomed to the good life he has in Texas and the cover his marriage allows him in pursuit of both Ennis and of other sexual trysts.
Actually, I would respectfully disagree with you, Pete. While certainly we can say, objectively, that Jack & Ennis's relationship became an "ideal" in the sense that a day-to-day context would have changed the nature of the relationship, I don't for a second doubt that Jack was genuine and sincere in his wanting to get a ranch with Ennis. This was what motivated him to get up every day, it consumed his thoughts. I really don't think he feared for his life--or, at the very least, he underestimated the danger and/or was willing to take the risk. I read a review which noted that Jack's tragic flaw may have been his nativete, and I couldn't agree more. The film made the point to portray Jack as the consummate idealist, and this included not fully appreciating--or perhaps willfully ignoring--the potential negative consequences of living together with a man.
Also, the only reason Jack pursued the "other sexual trysts" was because he couldn't have this life with Ennis and couldn't spend enough time with the love of his life ("never enough time"). It was a way to compensate for the loneliness and his yearning for Ennis the 49-50 weeks of the year they were apart. But it didn't make him happy-- just look at his forlorn, far-off expressions in Mexico and with Randall.
What did make Jack happy was holding onto the hope that eventually Ennis would come around. IMHO, Jack would have dropped *everything* to be with Ennis had he indicated he was ready. Heck, we pretty much saw that when Jack drove hundreds of miles after the divorce, showing up on Ennis's doorstep, and announcing, "So here I am!" The earnestness with which he delivers this line is heartbreaking--because we know that Ennis isn't capable of this commitment.
Put differently, recognizing that Jack is a dreamer, we can objectively say that his dream might have been dangerously naive or unrealistic. But I think it's incorrect to conclude that Jack didn't genuinely and whole-heartedly desire this dream to come true. He totally did. And the failure of this dream to materialize is one of the movie's most poignant tragedies for me. THAT is the power of the last shot of Jack in the movie--defeated, disillusioned, and heartbroken.
I have to agree with the other Scott. I don't see anything in the movie or the story that indicates that Jack was anything but sincere in his desire to be with Ennis. He's sweetly naive, and frankly, that's part of what endears him so much to us -- and probably to Ennis, too. I don't know how you can doubt the sincerity of someone who, after receiving the divorce postcard, drops everything to jump in his truck and drive hundreds of miles so that he can start his life with Ennis. And, on the way, he's giddy with happiness about the prospect. That's a guy who thinks his life is about to begin. Especially when compared with his response after Ennis turned him down the first time "You and Alma . . . that's a life?"
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If I had a more facile mind, I could probably figure this out for myself, but . . .
Our perspectives on the two alley scenes are interesting. In Ennis' alley scene, we see him from the darkness of the alley almost in silhouette, looking out into the light. In Jack's alley scene, we see Jack and the hustler walking from the lighted street into pitch blackness. Now I guess this could be another Ang Lee bookend scene. For Ennis, he's confronted with the knowledge of his feelings for Jack, and hence the light. For Jack, he's confronted with the knowledge that his dream of being with Ennis is probably never going to happen, and hence the darkness. Both scenes are painful, but the natures of the two causes of their pain is very different.
Does this resonate with anyone else, or am I just goofin here?
I'm also curious about the music that's playing as Jack and the hustler walk into the darkness. I don't know it, and I don't speak Spanish. The volume seems to increase as they walk into the darkness, so I wonder if the lyrics have any special meaning in that context.
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This is one way that I might compare and contrast those two scenes: by their reactions and content. In the doorway, Ennis buckles, becomes sick/angry, starts punching the doorframe. Hollers at a guy who just happens to wander bye. He's acting like someone who is trying to eject something out of him that's toxic. Internalized hatred/homophobia/disgust, perhaps? "I ain't no Queer", but what was he just doing up on BBM with Jack Twist? I've said before that when Ennis is afraid, he expresses it as anger. He's very afraid here--for what just happened to him and what it means. So afraid and full of anger and loathing he pukes his guts out, as if he can somehow expunge that part of him that is in love with Jack.
Jack responds differently, with sadness and remorse. He knows what he wants and accepts what he is and how things need to be in order to get it, but Ennis isn't coorperating. Jack's trip to Mexico is pure solace--a mercy f*ck, if you will. He'd rather be with Ennis, but can't, so he comes here and maybe he can forget about Ennis for a little while, too.
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Does anyone wonder why, in the first truck scene, Ennis and Jack do not shake hands and punch each other on the arm as they did in the book? ??? I think the way they parted so disconnectedly was not very realistic...or was it? :'(
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Also, the only reason Jack pursued the "other sexual trysts" was because he couldn't have this life with Ennis and couldn't spend enough time with the love of his life ("never enough time"). It was a way to compensate for the loneliness and his yearning for Ennis the 49-50 weeks of the year they were apart. But it didn't make him happy-- just look at his forlorn, far-off expressions in Mexico and with Randall.
This thought dovetails really nicely with the dicussion that starting to happen in "The Alley Scenes" discussion. Check it out.
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Does anyone wonder why, in the first truck scene, Ennis and Jack do not shake hands and punch each other on the arm as they did in the book? ??? I think the way they parted so disconnectedly was not very realistic...or was it? :'(
As a gay man, who's closeted and back down in town for the first time after his first sexual experiences with another man, the way it was shown in the movie was much more like it would have really happened - esp. seein Ennis' paranoia. For a long time, I felt like the whole world was starin at me and watchin me through binoculars I was so self-conscious. Even when no one was. That took years to wear off. Sometimes you're coldest to the one you care for most. It's f*cked up - sad but true.
Ennis acted very differently 4 years later after he had had time to think and live the other life as a comparison.
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Scott, I don't disagree with you actually. I too think Jack was very sincere in his belief that he wanted a domestic life with Ennis. I also agree that his fondest wish and deepest longing was for a life with Ennis.
You know I used to be a lot more like Jack in that I was a hopeless romantic and a dreamer of big dreams. However, some of the dreams I wanted the most never came to pass even though in hindsight they were easier to achieve than some dreams that did. Why? Because subconsciously I knew that what I thought I wanted the most really would not work in my life. In hindsight, years later, I understand this. It is sort of like the old adage "be careful what you wish for or you may get it."
I think as humans we often act on our subconscious thoughts and feelings without ever really understanding or knowing why. I happen to believe this applies to Jack. Sure Jack believes he wants the dream of a daily life with Ennis, but subconsciously, I don't think he is ready to risk what obtaining that dream might mean: the loss of the BBM ideal, the threat of violence, ostracism by the cowboy society in which they live, the chance that he and Ennis might be ill suited to live together in the real world that bears little resemblance to the world of BBM, Ennis' probable resentment of being forced into a life of which he is deathly afraid to live.
I don't think Jack ever really articulates any of these things even to himself; however, I don't doubt they are somewhere in the back of his mind. If they are not, then I think we would see Jack live a very different life. There has to be some explanation of why Jack married a rich girl 1200 miles away from the love of his life, started a family, and stayed married to her for 20 years. He had a world of options from moving to a big city where gays were accepted to moving back to Wyoming and wearing Ennis down (he could have lived on the opposite end of the state and he and Ennis could have supplemented their longer trips with weekend trips once or twice a month--especially after Ennis divorced). IMO, it is not like Jack took the ONLY or even the BEST road that lay open to him.
You know Scott, I think you are right on the money with this quote: Put differently, recognizing that Jack is a dreamer, we can objectively say that his dream might have been dangerously naive or unrealistic. But I think it's incorrect to conclude that Jack didn't genuinely and whole-heartedly desire this dream to come true. He totally did. And the failure of this dream to materialize is one of the movie's most poignant tragedies for me. THAT is the power of the last shot of Jack in the movie--defeated, disillusioned, and heartbroken. I just happen to think that Jack blamed himself (if not more) as much as he blames Ennis for the defeat, disillusionment, and heartbreak. There is plenty of blame for both of them.
You know I include the Cormac McCarthy quote in my signature line because for me, it speaks the central tragedy of this movie (which you identify in the paragraph above). It is impossible to reconcile the heartfelt wish of these two men with the world in which they live. I just think on certain levels that Jack realizes this as much as Ennis does. My heart breaks so much for these two men because it seems this very worthwhile dream breaks both of them in the end. I swear.
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If I had a more facile mind, I could probably figure this out for myself, but . . .
Our perspectives on the two alley scenes are interesting. In Ennis' alley scene, we see him from the darkness of the alley almost in silhouette, looking out into the light. In Jack's alley scene, we see Jack and the hustler walking from the lighted street into pitch blackness. Now I guess this could be another Ang Lee bookend scene. For Ennis, he's confronted with the knowledge of his feelings for Jack, and hence the light. For Jack, he's confronted with the knowledge that his dream of being with Ennis is probably never going to happen, and hence the darkness. Both scenes are painful, but the natures of the two causes of their pain is very different.
Does this resonate with anyone else, or am I just goofin here?
I'm also curious about the music that's playing as Jack and the hustler walk into the darkness. I don't know it, and I don't speak Spanish. The volume seems to increase as they walk into the darkness, so I wonder if the lyrics have any special meaning in that context.
It's "Quizas," the Spanish version of Nat "King" Cole's "Perhaps" (which he also sung in Spanish).
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Pete, thanks for clarifying what you meant. I actually agree with most of what you say about Jack's dream and the possibility that subconsciously he understood the obstacles that prevented it from occurring. I still believe, however, that there weren't many other options open to Jack: he wasn't a city boy, he belonged on a ranch, so I doubt moving to SF or NY ever crossed his mind; nor do I think moving to Wyoming would have made much of a difference, because I think Jack knew that Ennis relied on the fact that they could only meet 2 or 3 times a year (i.e., that was the only way Ennis knew how to "stand it").
But you're totally on the money with this statement: "It is impossible to reconcile the heartfelt wish of these two men with the world in which they live."
This pretty much sums up the central tragedy of the film.
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I'm also curious about the music that's playing as Jack and the hustler walk into the darkness. I don't know it, and I don't speak Spanish. The volume seems to increase as they walk into the darkness, so I wonder if the lyrics have any special meaning in that context.
I think your suspicion is correct. It is "Quizas, Quizas, Quizas"
English lyrics:
"Perhaps, Perhaps, Perhaps"
You won't admit you love me and so
How am I ever to know
You only tell me
Perhaps, perhaps, perhaps
A million times I ask you and then
I ask you over again
You only answer
Perhaps, perhaps, perhaps
If you can't make your mind up
We'll never get started
And I don't want to wind up
Being parted, broken hearted
So if you really love me say, "yes"
But if you don't, dear, confess
And please don't tell me
Perhaps, perhaps, perhaps
If you can't make your mind up
We'll never get started
And I don't want to wind up
Being parted, broken hearted
So if you really love me say, "yes"
But if you don't, dear, confess
And please don't tell me
Perhaps, perhaps, perhaps
Perhaps, perhaps, perhaps
Perhaps, perhaps, perhaps
En Espanol:
Siempre que te pregunto
que cuando,como y donde
tu siempre me respondes
Quizas, Quizas, Quizas
Y asi pasan los dias
y yo desesperado,y Tu,Tu contestando
Quizas,Quizas,Quizas,
Estas perdiendo el tiempo,pensando,pensando
Por lo que Tu mas quieras
hasta cuando, hasta cuando
Y asi pasan los dias, y yo desesperado
y Tu,Tu contestando
Quizas, Quizas, Quizas.
Siempre que te pregunto
que cuando,como y donde
Tu siempre me respondes
Quizas,Quizas,Quizas
Estas perdiendo el tiempo,pensando,pensando
Por lo que Tu mas quieras
hasta cuando, hasta cuando
Estas perdiendo el tiempo,pensando,pensando
Por lo que Tu mas quieras
hasta cuando, hasta cuando
Y asi pasan los dias, y yo desesperado
y Tu,Tu contestando
Quizas, Quizas, Quizas.
Siempre que te pregunto
que cuando,como y donde
Tu siempre me respondes
Quizas, Quizas, Quizas.
Quizas, Quizas, Quizas.
Quizas, Quizas, Quizas.
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I just read the four pages of this blog and there is a lot of great discussion on these topics. But I still go back to a few things....
1) Jack offering ideas of "a real sweet life" and "getting a little cow and calf operation" together is a "starting point." A PLACE TO START and then you can boil down all the nitty gritty from there. No one EVER starts ANYTHING with all the facts hard boiled. But people DO start things because they seem worth pursuing.
No one says Ennis or Jack would GIVE UP their children or responsibilites. They could still be good parents and providers. There certainly are people who have ex-spouses and children and live in different states and are still good parents. Those two would have worked it out. Someone mentions Enniss devotion to his children and not being able to leave them, even for Jack. Well Ennis comments several times in the movie that he missed time with his kids. When Jack shows up at the house after the divorce, Ennis says, "I missed last month.... and..." talking about his visitation and his kids.
2) Ennis is so afraid of this life and dying from it. Whats worth dying for more than love?
And the ASSUMPTION that they are going to be killed automaticly for living together. I KNOW that even at THAT world, at THAT time, there were "guys ranched up together" somewhere. They had the "tough old birds" as role models and could take from that experience ways to play it more safe. Now I have no doubt that Ennis was deeply affected by that scene where the old Rancher was killed, but come on. Ennis was a cowboy. Im sure heard stories about people being killed in the mountains by a bear or a wildcat or from a farm accident or horse accident. But Im sure it didnt stop him from going in to the mountains or from being a rancher. You learn things from not only your experiences but also other peoples. And nothing worth having is easy.
3)After all the proverbial begging and pleading and continual eased in to suggestions from Jack to MOVE,.... MOVE in together, RELOCATE for a better life together.... from the man he loves, loves him, makes love WITH and he WONT DO IT
But if you remember the scene where Ennis and Alma are out on the Ranch and Ennis has just got the kids off to bed and they are settling in for the night .. (Ennis is in those awful yellow sleep pants with the medallion looking things all over them) Alma starts to kiss on Ennis in a seductive sort of way, then procedes to use her wildes to try and convince him to move in to Riverton for a "Better Life". The next scene is Ennis pulling up to their new apartment in Riverton and going up the steps to the apartment above the laundromat.
He moved for her but wouldnt BUDGE for Jack. comments!?
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The next scene is Ennis pulling up to their new apartment in Riverton and going up the steps to the apartment above the laundromat. He moved for her but wouldnt BUDGE for Jack. comments!?
I think Ennis moved to town for the sake of his girls. In the Alma scene, she argues for the move so that Alma Jr. won't be lonely like Ennis was. She also wants to be closer to the doctor for little Jenny's asthma.
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Since this is the thread for Truck scenes and Jack meeting the daughters... This could also belong under symbolism.... I think Ennis's daughters have the same desperate desire for Ennis's attention as Jack does. He never spends gobs of time with them and you can see their desire to have a relationship and dialog with him from the attempt at conversation at Thanksgiving (maybe this also belongs under the Thanksgiving thread) and when Ennis runs out of the house and they run out on the porch after him saying goodbye, repeatedly, begging for a response. I think they girls feel isolated from Ennis, they same way JAck does sometimes.
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on the choice of "Quizas" and "Perhaps"
OMG - I swear - Ang Lee, music editors and staff ARE GENUISES!
It's amazing the song that parallels EXACTLY the GD bitch of the situation.
I never much paid attention to that, but now totally floored.
What a gem this movie is.
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Jack's trip to Mexico is pure solace--a mercy f*ck, if you will. He'd rather be with Ennis, but can't, so he comes here and maybe he can forget about Ennis for a little while, too.
And you also have to remember the context... he heard about the divorce; drove 1200 miles in complete extacy of seeing the love of his life and maybe start what he's been dreaming of, also totally aroused forseeing all of that. When turned down, he had to relieve the pressure the best way he could and quickly... Mexico
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There have been many comments about Jack and Ennis's relationships with their children in the story and what they infur from little snippets we see of them in the film. I really dont think the kids are really there to be elaborated on at all. I think they are just "props" like the shag carpeting and color TV in Jacks house. The kids show they did what they thought they were supposed to do by marrying and having kids just as the new color TV and shag carpet in Jacks house shows that they are living well. They are just "setting a stage" to me.
If you do want to talk about the kids being important in the movie, I would say Ennis's kids do play more of a role. To ME, showing more of Ennis's distance and unavailability. I think Ennis's daughters have the same desperate desire for Ennis's attention as Jack does. He never spends gobs of time with them and you can see their desire to have a relationship and dialog with him from the attempt at conversation at Thanksgiving dinner and when Ennis runs out of the house and they run out on the porch after him saying goodbye, repeatedly, begging for a response. I think they girls feel isolated from Ennis, they same way JAck does sometimes.
There is also no doubt Ennis makes sacrifice for BOTH his kids and Jack. Showing he is compassionate to BOTH... I just dont think he knows how to organize the two. Obvioulsy he tells Jack upon his arrival at his new place in the divorce scene that he cant be with Jack because he has to be with his girls, he's already missed last month. As well as we see Ennis run off on the first fising trip to be with Jack. There is the "pass off" off of Alma Jr to Alma as he runs out the door and in the divorce scene when Ennis says he already missed last month... who's to say he didnt miss last month because he was with Jack.
Ultimately, for these two charachters, there is nothing or no one more important in their lives than each other. Although that relationship is obviously very discussable itself
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I think someone posted on the old board that the Mexican hustler is Rodrigo Prieto, cinematographer for Brokeback Mountain. It sure looks like him. Has anyone confirmed this?
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I think someone posted on the old board that the Mexican hustler is Rodrigo Prieto, cinematographer for Brokeback Mountain. It sure looks like him. Has anyone confirmed this?
It is Rodrigo Prieto.
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Cool.
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As to Ennis -- he certainly loves his daughters. But in the reunion scene, as he's getting ready to "go fishing" with Jack, he gives Alma Jr. a cursory peck on the cheek, and hands her off to Alma as quickly as he can. There's also the scene in the grocery store where Ennis clearly conveys that his needs are more important, and if the children get in the way, you hand them off to Alma. I've also said in another thread that I believe part of Ennis devotion to his daughters stems from the cover they provide him.
This take on it reminds me of the criticisms I've come across of the movie's "misogyny" -- that Brokeback Mountain is depicted as an Eden-like masculine idylll, free of women and children, who represent society's strictures. That Alma is left with the crying babies and dreary household duties while her husband runs off to his women- and child-free paradise.
Cara
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on the choice of "Quizas" and "Perhaps"
OMG - I swear - Ang Lee, music editors and staff ARE GENUISES!
It's amazing the song that parallels EXACTLY the GD bitch of the situation.
I never much paid attention to that, but now totally floored.
What a gem this movie is.
PLC (and others),
Make sure you check out the words to Melissa (now posted in the Score thread along with the words to this song). That song is also an OMG and shows remarkable genius. It so amazes me that there seems to be NOTHING wasted in this movie. A true work of art.
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What did make Jack happy was holding onto the hope that eventually Ennis would come around. IMHO, Jack would have dropped *everything* to be with Ennis had he indicated he was ready. Heck, we pretty much saw that when Jack drove hundreds of miles after the divorce, showing up on Ennis's doorstep, and announcing, "So here I am!" The earnestness with which he delivers this line is heartbreaking--because we know that Ennis isn't capable of this commitment.
I can't really think too much about Jack's "So here I am!" and the look on his face, because I know what's coming. It's too painful.
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Well, I'm glad there are some people taking up for Ennis. I DO think Ennis defines his boundaries because of his fears, but all in all, I think Ennis was by far the more honest of the two characters. As already stated, Ennis never leads Jack on in regards to the terms of their relationship. In fact, he tells Jack this more than once. Remember the line, "I already told you, it ain't gonna be that way. I'm stuck with what I got." He then goes on to tell Jack, "Two guys living together? No. We can get together every once in awhile way the hell out in the back of nowhere..." And this is the way Ennis defined the relationship for Jack and the way it was for 20 years. Ennis never, not once, led Jack to expect anything more than that.
Remember Jack was the romantic. Lureen says so on the phone with Ennis. "But knowing Jack, it might be some pretend place where the bluebirds sing and there is a whiskey spring." Jack's father says so when he tells Ennis, "But like most a Jack's ideas it never come to pass." Proulx makes sure we understand the heart of a romantic beats in Jack. Even though Ennis was always upfront with Jack and very clear of his boundaries, Jack still dreams a romantic's dreams. I'm sorry, but I personally think that a partner so clearly defining his boundaries is the opposite of any sort of emotional abuse. Ennis gave Jack everything he told him he would. He even told him, "ain't no reins on this one" signaling to Jack that as long as he was willing to accept the limits, then their relationship could go on forever.
The other thing that no one seems to mention is that Jack certainly had other options with Ennis and with his own life. Why does Jack wait four years to find Ennis? Why doesn't Jack ever divorce Lureen and move closer to Ennis so maybe they can spend more time together? Why is it that Ennis always has to give up his life in order to be with Jack? Ennis quits his jobs, so they can spend time together. Jack accepts this even though he knows Ennis is poor and has a family. If Jack lived in Wyoming they could spend more time together and do it on Ennis' normal days off, so they could see one another without Ennis quitting the jobs.
Jack asks Ennis to move to Texas away from his children. Jack throws a fit because Ennis can't get time off a job he needs to keep (to pay child support) even though Jack stays in a cushy situation 1200 miles away where he has no financial worries and can take off when he wants. Jack tells Ennis he wants to quit him, even though we never hear Ennis make such a nasty comment to Jack. Jack pressures Ennis to give him more than Ennis can give to him. Jack shows a willingness to toss aside his son for Ennis, but Ennis refuses to cut his daughters from his life, even for Jack. In my view, Jack always demands and demands from Ennis in spite of what Ennis makes clear he can give, and really, even though he says he is willling to do so, never gives up anything much in return. Who is it that loses the most due to this relationship (not counting the emotional hardship which affects both of them equally)? It ain't Jack Twist.
We even see this on the mountain. Who is it that won't eat beans? Who hates sleeping with the sheep in the pup tent that smells like cat piss? Who insists on illegally killing an elk? It is always Jack wanting more. And who takes care of him? Ennis. Throughout the movie, Jack always wants more, and Ennis gives him all that he possibly can while remaining true to the last part of himself he can (a good cowboy and a father who provides for his children). Jack would take that from of him as well if Ennis would let him.
Don't get me wrong. I love the character of Jack Twist, and I feel his need and his pain. I also understand the romantic and the dreamer who often finds the dream and the wish safer and more secure than the hard, cold reality. I don't begrudge Jack for what he wanted, nor for what Ennis gives up for him. However, in my opinion, to suggest that Jack is a poor victim who has to endure a lifetime of emotional abuse at the hands of Ennis is a far cry from the truth of the movie I watched and the book I read. Both of these men are victims, but not of one another. They are victims of a society that says two men can't love and can't live together and remain part of their community or remain true to the men they are supposed to be.
Pete, great analysis. I think there are many things, which are not good, to be said about Jack's reckless abandon.
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The second truck scene with Jack driving all the way from Texas at news of the divorce was a hard one for me. I think it is pretty realistic overall. I will discuss that in a second. I did, however, feel that the one issue with reality in the scene was that Ennis just dismissed him upon arrival. That was not very consistent even for Ennis. I mean, he may have told Jack that they wouldn't be together that way, but I am not sure he would have sent him back on the 1200 mile return drive right away. It did not play very consistent there.
I did think that Jack driving all the way up and being so excited was spot on. He had waited for this day for several years at this point. His reaction to Ennis' bewilderment was also very real. He was stunned and then angry that he was being dismissed. I think Ennis was so shocked to see him, he just did not know how to react. Remember -- he had no phone, and Jack pulling into his driveway was a complete surprise. Jack's tears on the drive home were very true for me. How many times have we had a negative surprise from someone we care for, and leave in disappointment and tears. His need to go find a quick trick is pretty true from what I have seen with some of my male friends. Nothing seems to address their disappointment quite like getting a quick trick. I don't get that myself, but I know it is very realistic.
I don't think that Jack is a tragic or abused character at all. I do think that he goes through what many of us go through with other men. They are not always available to us and we try and spend time figuring out how difficult it is for us to continue to love them. Jack and Ennis loved each other completely. They both also came from somewhat abusive/harsh childhoods. The need to constantly be trying to find the appropriate balancing point would be a natural thing to both of them. Jack was not going to just give up on the man he loved. His character was too optimistic and romantic. He (after all) was the one who believed they could live a life together without fear. He certainly could have thought that time would change Ennis' view. I think later in the movie, we do see his frustration and his internal turmoil over his need to be closer to Ennis for things to continue.
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I'm also curious about the music that's playing as Jack and the hustler walk into the darkness. I don't know it, and I don't speak Spanish. The volume seems to increase as they walk into the darkness, so I wonder if the lyrics have any special meaning in that context.
I think your suspicion is correct. It is "Quizas, Quizas, Quizas"
English lyrics:
"Perhaps, Perhaps, Perhaps"
You won't admit you love me and so
How am I ever to know
You only tell me
Perhaps, perhaps, perhaps
[....]
Well. well. Truly awesome. Many thanks, In Tears.
My Spanish was never great and has deteriorated, but: In the Spanish words the emphasis is a bit different. They seem more desperate.
I keep asking "When, how, where"
and you always give me "Maybe, maybe, maybe"
and that's how the days are lost
and I lose a little more hope
and you give me "Maybe, maybe, maybe"
Estas perdiendo el tiempo,pensando,pensando
"You think and think while time slips away".... imperfect subjunctive or something, gotta headache....
In the Spanish, it's less (overtly) about love, more about time and hope slipping away. I think. Just a bit of difference in emphasis. Please, someone with real Spanish correct me.
Late now --GOOD NIGHT y'all!
Dal
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2) Ennis is so afraid of this life and dying from it. Whats worth dying for more than love?
And the ASSUMPTION that they are going to be killed automatically for living together. I KNOW that even at THAT world, at THAT time, there were "guys ranched up together" somewhere. They had the "tough old birds" as role models and could take from that experience ways to play it more safe. Now I have no doubt that Ennis was deeply affected by that scene where the old Rancher was killed, but come on. Ennis was a cowboy. I'm sure heard stories about people being killed in the mountains by a bear or a wildcat or from a farm accident or horse accident. But I'm sure it didn't stop him from going in to the mountains or from being a rancher. You learn things from not only your experiences but also other peoples. And nothing worth having is easy
I really appreciate what you said, and I think you make some good points, but there are a couple of areas where I might disagree. Love might be worth dying for, especially one as powerful as Jack and Ennis had, but what about his love for his girls? Isn't that worth living for? I think that is part of the heartbreak of the second scene. Ennis as a father completely shuts down Jack's romantic impulse to drive all the way from Texas. I don't think in his mind there was any way those two types of love could work together. I think too, that in Ennis's mind, "ranching up" with Jack could only lead to death. As he relates the story of the old rancher being killed it seems like the people around that couple knew or assumed they were gay, and the murder was inevitable somehow. He tells Jack, for all he knows, his own father may have been a part of it; certainly he wasn't above using it as a grisly object lesson for his 9 year old son. This was unlike an accident or an animal attack. Those can't be predicted, but according to Ennis's father, this is what happens to men who love other men (at least openly). I'm getting off the thread here, but I think it's important to remember that Ennis did love his kids, in his imperfect way, and he didn't want to abandon them, either by moving away, or by getting himself killed. It certainly isn't logical, but fear never is.
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ACTUALLY
Estas perdiendo el tiempo,pensando,pensando translates as "YOU'RE WASTING YOUR TIME PONDERING, PONDERING"
The nuance of the "pensando" which literally means thinking is more along the lines of pondering.
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...Lureen's description of the details of Jack's death, then, were untruths to protect her father. Ennis knew, not in the details but in reality, what happened to Jack. Poor, simple and complex, "hungup" Ennis, had been right all along. Heart searing.
The story makes clear that, by the time of Jack's death, LD has died and Lurene has inherited the business. That isn't so clear in the movie, though Lurene has clearly taken over running the business. I'm still of the mind that the bashing scene is all in Ennis' head.
i'm with aiden on this one. lureen newsome was telling the story to protect herself, her father, even if he was dead. she told it to prevent shame on the newsome name. "wouldn't be right to buy a tractor with a fag attached" type of thing... plus, it sounded rehearsed, like she'd been telling it over and over again. you don't admit your husband is gay, even when he's dead -- this is texas. i felt she knew the truth, but the cops told her a believable story and she stuck with it. i felt they probably had to hedge but somebody let her know.
she knew jack was gay. the numbers he kept in his head, the bluebird sings and whisky springs... yeah. and she knew about ennis... "two, three times a year..."
also, i agree with a previous poster who noted that when ennis corrected her about brokeback, saying "we tended sheep up there in 63", it was when the tears welled forth in lureen's eyes. she realized then that ennis had been with jack longer than she'd known him, longer than they'd been married.
her little whimpers are amazing. i love this scene as much as i love the entire movie.
edit: wtf, this is the thanksgiving thread -- am i allowed to carry over quotes to the appropriate thread?
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Thanksgiving is a uniquely American holiday and I (a Canuck) always found it interesting that American students would always go home for Thanskgiving, even though it's rather a short holiday and is pretty close to Christmas. Thanksgiving also conjures up images of the traditional family all sitting together eating turkey, with the man carving the bird. Ang Lee has used this device in another film of his--The Ice Storm. Interestingly, the time period of The Ice Storm is probably around the same as the Thanksgiving scenes in BBM, although The Ice Storm took place in the WASP suburbs of the North East. Ang undercuts the image of the happy American family in The Ice Storm by having one of the kids denounce the Vietnam War during prayer. In BBM, Jack is essentially an outsider in his own family, thanks to his father-in-law; Ennis is truly an outsider thanks to the divorce (his attempts to be more "presentable" reinforces that outsider aspect). Ennis is in a home paid by Alma's new husband. Jack is in a home paid by Lureen's father and his business. Nothing is theirs.
The women cook the dinner. With Alma, it's assumed; with Lureen, it's stated by Jack because the viewer can't assume Lureen cooked the dinner. With the Jack scenes, we only see the preparation; we never actually see them eat. We never get to see them enjoy the fruits of their labour.
With the Ennis scenes, we see them eat and we seem them clean up. While they're eating, we see Ennis' daughters clearly smitten with their father during dinner. His recounting of his only time as a rodeoperson is the one time he can "one up" Alma's husband. This upsets Alma and this is probably why she confronts him during the clean up. The cleaning up aspect of any gathering is forgotten and ignored until we actually have to do it. The eating of dinner is family time, the cleaning up represents the breaking of the family (as we see the kids watching tv). And it's during the clean up where Alma's split from Ennis is totally final.
Food is very important to Ang. He uses that "food = love and home" symbolism in many of his films, like Eat Drink Man Woman and Sense & Sensibility. Alma accuses Jack of never bringing fish home, essentially stating that Jack has failed as husband and father. This is important for Alma, given the time she spent making this dinner for her family and for Ennis, despite never being acknolwedged for her work.
Both Jack and Ennis are "emasculated" in different ways and both respond by threats of violence. The short-term consequences are different. Jack asserts his position in his family. Ennis loses his family and gets beat up by a stranger. Ennis' secret is revealed by Alma and he gets beat up but it's his own fault he got beat up. A self-fulfilling prophecy.
But the long-term consequences are similar. For Ennis, this is the last we see of Alma and he forges an almost new life. For Jack, this is the beginning of the end for his marriage to Lureen. His confrontation with his father-in-law is an impetus to make changes to his life. He is no longer complacenet. He meets Randall, he makes that ultimatum to Ennis, he's ready to leave his family.
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What did make Jack happy was holding onto the hope that eventually Ennis would come around. IMHO, Jack would have dropped *everything* to be with Ennis had he indicated he was ready. Heck, we pretty much saw that when Jack drove hundreds of miles after the divorce, showing up on Ennis's doorstep, and announcing, "So here I am!" The earnestness with which he delivers this line is heartbreaking--because we know that Ennis isn't capable of this commitment.
I can't really think too much about Jack's "So here I am!" and the look on his face, because I know what's coming. It's too painful.
The body language in this scene just kills me. Ennis won't look Jack in the eye and all Jack wants it to see the possibility in Ennis' face! Watch the scene again (I know - like we all can just log off and run over to the cinema for the next showing...) and see how the sad realization comes over Jack and how his face falls, his shoulders sag, the breath he was holding is exhaled, waiting for Ennis to say 'yes', and then realizing that it wasn't going to happen.
I still maintain, cute as Jakey is and all, that his performance was COMPLETELY underrated. Jake uses his physical stature and his [goofy] eyebrows and his big eyes to convey MORE by not saying anything than Heath did all bottled up and quiet, not saying anything. Jake's use of body language spoke VOLUMES about Jack's feelings, the play of emotions in each scene.
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Thanks for the translations, everyone. Yet another layer of meaning. I would have thought that, after reading thousands of posts about this movie, my interest would have waned by now. But I still find myself scouring this board, the movie and the story for any clues that help give me a better understanding of these four characters. Since I generally have the attention span of a gnat (particularly when it comes to movies), that's nothing short of miraculous.
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I also wonder if Ennis' devotion to his daughters is not partly colored by the traditional, hetero, family screen it provides for him -- something Jack was always ready to toss aside.
WHAT?????
Sorry Scot, but you obviously have no kids to state such a thing.
I am a happily married straight guy with a daughter. Although I had same sex encounters in the past (before my marriage, may I say) and that I do have very "gray" periods on which I ask myself the eternal question, in NO f*cking way I would abandonned my little girl. That bound is sacred. It's family - my own blood. My wife will always be a stranger in the blood sense, but my daughter will always carry my dna (and my heart) with her.
Ennis made it clear. And although my personality is much closer to Jack's, who I think married money and a bit of stability he never had, I, like Ennis, married based on love. Now my love to my wife may end one day, but never for my kids...
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I also wonder if Ennis' devotion to his daughters is not partly colored by the traditional, hetero, family screen it provides for him -- something Jack was always ready to toss aside.
WHAT?????
Sorry Scot, but you obviously have no kids to state such a thing.
I am a happily married straight guy with a daughter. Although I had same sex encounters in the past (before my marriage, may I say) and that I do have very "gray" periods on which I ask myself the eternal question, in NO f*cking way I would abandonned my little girl. That bound is sacred. It's family - my own blood. My wife will always be a stranger in the blood sense, but my daughter will always carry my dna (and my heart) with her.
Ennis made it clear. And although my personality is much closer to Jack's, who I think married money and a bit of stability he never had, I, like Ennis, married based on love. Now my love to my wife may end one day, but never for my kids...
I agree with you. While I have no children, the majority of gay men my age and older here do. They married because it was expected of them. And they love their children with all the depths of their heart.
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I only said it colors his devotion, not that it supplants it.
I've no doubt that Ennis loves his daughters. But he's also a man ruled by his fears, and his life with Alma and the two daughters he had with her gives him cover on the street when all those people are looking at him -- like they know his secret.
And, afterall, we're all just guessing here. You're relationship with, and devotion to, your daughter sounds wonderful. But it's no more representative of every father/daughter relationship than is my opinion a reflection of every childless gay man. You are happily married to a wife you love. You're not caught in quite the same conundrum as Ennis.
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I only said it colors his devotion, not that it supplants it.
I've no doubt that Ennis loves his daughters. But he's also a man ruled by his fears, and his life with Alma and the two daughters he had with her gives him cover on the street when all those people are looking at him -- like they know his secret.
And, afterall, we're all just guessing here. You're relationship with, and devotion to, your daughter sounds wonderful. But it's no more representative of every father/daughter relationship than is my opinion a reflection of every childless gay man. You are happily married to a wife you love. You're not caught in quite the same conundrum as Ennis.
Thank you Scot for the precision.
... and by the way, was not judging you, but reacting to the comment
And you are soooo right about "we're all just guessing here". That's why I get chuckles everytime I read someone write with all the conviction in the world about what Jack or Ennis really were, or what that comment or that facial expression meant. When you read the story, you write your own movie script in your head. Brokeback Mountain, the movie, is the script by Ang, Larry and Diana.
My own conlusion to the sage is what I "wrote" from the story.
JP
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" It is always Jack wanting more. And who takes care of him? Ennis. Throughout the movie, Jack always wants more, and Ennis gives him all that he possibly can while remaining true to the last part of himself he can (a good cowboy and a father who provides for his children). Jack would take that from of him as well if Ennis would let him."
--Peteinportland
But Pete, while i agree with almost everything you've (ever)_ said, it is Jack who takes care, who says "it's all right" over and over. Jack who nurtures, caresses, holds Ennis almost every time. only in the dosy embrace scene does Ennis mother Jack. Jack may want more, but Jack gives more too. Probably doesn't love more, but gives more.
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"I thought about this too, but wondered if Ennis would really let that happen. When Jack drives up after the divorce, Ennis is concerned about what someone driving past on the road might think while he and Jack are talking. In Ennis' mind, spending all that time together would have been a little too close to living together, and I think Ennis would have rejected it as readily as he rejected every other suggestion Jack made.
I can't help but sympathize with the romantic in Jack. He needs Ennis in a way that Ennis never comprehends.
I also wonder if Ennis' devotion to his daughters is not partly colored by the traditional, hetero, family screen it provides for him -- something Jack was always ready to toss aside". (Scott 5636)
I agree completely.
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This movie has let me to re-read this poem. thought you all might like to re-read it too.
Hope is the thing with feathers -- Emily Dickenson
HOPE is the thing with feathers
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all,
And sweetest in the gale is heard; 5
And sore must be the storm
That could abash the little bird
That kept so many warm.
I ’ve heard it in the chillest land,
And on the strangest sea; 10
Yet, never, in extremity,
It asked a crumb of me.
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ACTUALLY
Estas perdiendo el tiempo,pensando,pensando translates as "YOU'RE WASTING YOUR TIME PONDERING, PONDERING"
The nuance of the "pensando" which literally means thinking is more along the lines of pondering.
Okay! So
Estas perdiendo el tiempo, pensando, pensando
Por lo que Tu mas quieras
hasta cuando, hasta cuando
"You're wasting your time, pondering
pondering what it is you want most --
'Til when? When?"
Got it.
Dal
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Well, I'm glad there are some people taking up for Ennis. I DO think Ennis defines his boundaries because of his fears, but all in all, I think Ennis was by far the more honest of the two characters. As already stated, Ennis never leads Jack on in regards to the terms of their relationship. In fact, he tells Jack this more than once. Remember the line, "I already told you, it ain't gonna be that way. I'm stuck with what I got." He then goes on to tell Jack, "Two guys living together? No. We can get together every once in awhile way the hell out in the back of nowhere..." And this is the way Ennis defined the relationship for Jack and the way it was for 20 years. Ennis never, not once, led Jack to expect anything more than that.
Remember Jack was the romantic. Lureen says so on the phone with Ennis. "But knowing Jack, it might be some pretend place where the bluebirds sing and there is a whiskey spring." Jack's father says so when he tells Ennis, "But like most a Jack's ideas it never come to pass." Proulx makes sure we understand the heart of a romantic beats in Jack. Even though Ennis was always upfront with Jack and very clear of his boundaries, Jack still dreams a romantic's dreams. I'm sorry, but I personally think that a partner so clearly defining his boundaries is the opposite of any sort of emotional abuse. Ennis gave Jack everything he told him he would. He even told him, "ain't no reins on this one" signaling to Jack that as long as he was willing to accept the limits, then their relationship could go on forever.
The other thing that no one seems to mention is that Jack certainly had other options with Ennis and with his own life. Why does Jack wait four years to find Ennis?
--He tried the very next year when he went back to Aguirre's office to look for work, and for Ennis.
Why doesn't Jack ever divorce Lureen and move closer to Ennis so maybe they can spend more time together?
--He offers to do just that to live with Ennis, but Ennis refuses.
Why is it that Ennis always has to give up his life in order to be with Jack? Ennis quits his jobs, so they can spend time together. Jack accepts this even though he knows Ennis is poor and has a family.
--Jack only learns during their last time together that Ennis would in the past quit his job to go away with him. Ennis says he can't do it to be with him in August because he can't quit jobs anymore. However, we learn later that he can do it for love, as he decides to do for Alma Jr.'s wedding.
If Jack lived in Wyoming they could spend more time together and do it on Ennis' normal days off, so they could see one another without Ennis quitting the jobs.
--Ennis says they can only get together a few times a year. His paranoia was such that it would not let him do more even if Jack were nearby. After all, he sends Jack away without so much as a kiss when he comes by after learning of the divorce even though they could have met at a motel for a few hours--before or after Ennis had taken the girls back to Alma. Jack certainly could have waited a few days; he was expecting to be there for some time anyway. But Ennis doesn't show so much as a hint of interest in that. What we see here is that Ennis, far from always accommodating Jack, would only see Jack on his own terms and according to his own plans. It caused Jack great pain and could so easily have been avoided.
Jack asks Ennis to move to Texas away from his children.
--Jack suggests more than once that they take a place by themselves. It's clear from the scene with Ennis and Jack's parents that Jack had contemplated their taking over his family's place. Jack's father says of Jack: "'Ennis del Mar,' he used a say, 'I'm goin a bring him up here one a these days and we'll lick this damn ranch into shape.' He had some half-baked idea the two a you was goin a move up here, build a log cabin and help me run this ranch and bring it up.'" However, Ennis continues his refusals even to consider their being together more than a week at a time a few times a year. This eliminates another possibilty that would have been so much better for Jack than what they did: Jack's staying the whole summer at his folks' place and visiting Ennis in the evenings and weekends.
Jack throws a fit because Ennis can't get time off a job he needs to keep (to pay child support) even though Jack stays in a cushy situation 1200 miles away where he has no financial worries and can take off when he wants. Jack tells Ennis he wants to quit him, even though we never hear Ennis make such a nasty comment to Jack.
--Nothing nasty from Ennis? Jack says he wishes he could quit Ennis after Ennis has threatened to kill him. The threat comes because he doesn't want Jack to have sex with any other man but him partly out of extreme jealousy, partly out of his need to continue in his self-deception about his sexuality. Ennis wants Jack to deny his own deep needs and to live just the sort of life he leads--and be satisfied with that.
Jack pressures Ennis to give him more than Ennis can give to him. Jack shows a willingness to toss aside his son for Ennis, but Ennis refuses to cut his daughters from his life, even for Jack.
--Jack pushes and tries to guide Ennis, no doubt. But such pressure does have a positive effect on Ennis, however slow it may be. He needs to be pushed and led in order to change and develop. If Jack hadn't guided Ennis' hand that first night in the tent on Brokeback, they might never have loved each other.
In my view, Jack always demands and demands from Ennis in spite of what Ennis makes clear he can give, and really, even though he says he is willling to do so, never gives up anything much in return. Who is it that loses the most due to this relationship (not counting the emotional hardship which affects both of them equally)? It ain't Jack Twist.
--Jack gives up his chance of a permanent relationship with someone else in order to stick with the possibility of Ennis. I'd say that's giving up quite a lot.
We even see this on the mountain. Who is it that won't eat beans? Who hates sleeping with the sheep in the pup tent that smells like cat piss? Who insists on illegally killing an elk? It is always Jack wanting more. And who takes care of him? Ennis. Throughout the movie, Jack always wants more, and Ennis gives him all that he possibly can while remaining true to the last part of himself he can (a good cowboy and a father who provides for his children). Jack would take that from of him as well if Ennis would let him.
--I think that's very unfair to Jack. What makes you think that Jack would want to take that from him? And it's not as if Ennis is raising his children. He says he only sees them a weekend a month. That's certainly an arrangement that Jack should have no difficulty accommodating. As for child support, nothing that Jack suggests would jeopardize that.
Don't get me wrong. I love the character of Jack Twist, and I feel his need and his pain. I also understand the romantic and the dreamer who often finds the dream and the wish safer and more secure than the hard, cold reality. I don't begrudge Jack for what he wanted, nor for what Ennis gives up for him. However, in my opinion, to suggest that Jack is a poor victim who has to endure a lifetime of emotional abuse at the hands of Ennis is a far cry from the truth of the movie I watched and the book I read. Both of these men are victims, but not of one another. They are victims of a society that says two men can't love and can't live together and remain part of their community or remain true to the men they are supposed to be.
--This I agree with wholeheartedly.
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The first time I saw it (up to 3, should be 4 by next week), I started to giggle out loud then caught myself and shut up fast. But the song being played in the alley in Mexico is the theme of the British sit-com called "Coupling" and I recognized it the second I heard it.
I like the meaning of the lyrics and it's certainly an appropriate song for that moment in the film, but it just caught me off guard the first time.
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Cowboysnkisses, let's just say you and I see things very differently.
I just don't think Ennis is the bad guy here. I don't think Jack is the bad guy either. It is easy for people to relate to Jack's dream, but I think people fail to see that Ennis wants it just as badly. He just can't figure a way to get it, and Jack's solutions are not realistic for the place and time that the two of them live in (and as I point out, I think Jack knows this as well as Ennis).
I think the movie and book take great pains to show Ennis as a decent man and a good companion to Jack. There is a lot of give and take in their relationship. It befuddles me why some want to see Ennis as bad and Jack as mostly heroic (and maybe innocent). These characters are not simplistic: there is good and bad in both, and they are rich in complexity. My posts about Jack are to show some of that complexity in Jack. Both men cause their share of pain and make mistakes.
I think what some fail to realize is that Ennis CANNOT, CANNOT, CANNOT live with another man in Wyoming and that to take him out of that place and away from his family and his way of life would kill him as surely as the tire iron. Ennis tries very hard to find a middle way, and he gives up a lot to get the little bit of happiness that he can have with Jack.
I don't have time to answer your thoughts very throughly at this point (and will not for a couple of days). However, thank you for the very long and detailed post. It adds to what I think is a very worthwhile discussion.
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The first time I saw it (up to 3, should be 4 by next week), I started to giggle out loud then caught myself and shut up fast. But the song being played in the alley in Mexico is the theme of the British sit-com called "Coupling" and I recognized it the second I heard it.
I like the meaning of the lyrics and it's certainly an appropriate song for that moment in the film, but it just caught me off guard the first time.
Wow. I learn something new on this Board every day. Layers upon layers. That Ang Lee is sly.
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Don't get me wrong. I love the character of Jack Twist, and I feel his need and his pain. I also understand the romantic and the dreamer who often finds the dream and the wish safer and more secure than the hard, cold reality. I don't begrudge Jack for what he wanted, nor for what Ennis gives up for him. However, in my opinion, to suggest that Jack is a poor victim who has to endure a lifetime of emotional abuse at the hands of Ennis is a far cry from the truth of the movie I watched and the book I read. Both of these men are victims, but not of one another. They are victims of a society that says two men can't love and can't live together and remain part of their community or remain true to the men they are supposed to be.
I don't agree with the statement that "Both of these men are victims, but not of one another."
Ennis has to be held accountable for his violent homophobia and the results of it that manifested in the lives of all around him including him own. Simply because Jack excepted Ennis's stingy restrictions does not absolve Ennis of the responsibility of his choice. I am sorry but a couple of weeks out of fifty two was not fair to either of them.
Jack has to be held accountable for his choice to hang on to the dream of Ennis past the point of redemption. Jack was ultimately responsible for the quality of his own life. Dreamer or not.
They had the intense love connection but they did not have much respect or compromise going for them. To say they are not victims of each other is to say that they did not have any choices in the matter.
Ennis did appear to eventually change. To bad it took Jack's death to get him to that point. Jack was considering a relationship with Randall to get the life that appeared to not be possible with Ennis. What's to say that if maybe Jack had been less willing to oblige Ennis's restrictions and Ennis realized that he was going to lose Jack that he might have had the same epiphany that he did when Jack actually died.
There are a million and one varients of possible outcomes that don't involve losing the only man you will ever love because of your own homophobia and losing your life because of your choice to steal some neighbor woman's husband.
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Ennis tries very hard to find a middle way, and he gives up a lot to get the little bit of happiness that he can have with Jack.
What middle way? Ennis allowed one choice and that was a couple of "fishing" trips a year. There was never any other options offered.
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on the choice of "Quizas" and "Perhaps"
OMG - I swear - Ang Lee, music editors and staff ARE GENUISES!
It's amazing the song that parallels EXACTLY the GD bitch of the situation.
I never much paid attention to that, but now totally floored.
What a gem this movie is.
PLC (and others),
Make sure you check out the words to Melissa (now posted in the Score thread along with the words to this song). That song is also an OMG and shows remarkable genius. It so amazes me that there seems to be NOTHING wasted in this movie. A true work of art.
i would hope that the academy voters are aware of the genuis behind this movie, and remember to take that into consideration when watching the screener at home!!! sometimes i feel the members of this board should be allowed to vote, since we are getting so much insight into what makes this movie so GD remarkable! :D
pete, that's nice that the lyrics touched you so deeply. i wasn't sure i'd found the correct lyrics (to melissa) as i didn't pay much attention to the lyrics in that scene with cassie. such a wonderful scene, and like you say, nothing is wasted. for those that still feel that cassie scenes could or should have been cut from the movie altogether, i say, emphatically, no way!!
the perhaps perhaps song now holds much more meaning to me in the alleyscene. i wish there was another soundtrack available! so much good music was left out on the original sountrack to brokeback mountain. i'd have taken perhaps perhaps over it's so easy (to fall in love) any day! ;)
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When Ennis is retching the camera moves in a little and he moves his head and somehow you focus on the triangle of light between his body and arms. I think that this portends the love triangle to come.
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Interesting that Jack stands up to his father-in-law, but never to his father.
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The second truck scene with Jack driving all the way from Texas at news of the divorce was a hard one for me. I think it is pretty realistic overall. I will discuss that in a second. I did, however, feel that the one issue with reality in the scene was that Ennis just dismissed him upon arrival. That was not very consistent even for Ennis. I mean, he may have told Jack that they wouldn't be together that way, but I am not sure he would have sent him back on the 1200 mile return drive right away. It did not play very consistent there.
But if you remember, as the white truck passes by, Jack turns to Ennis and says "yeah, all right..." and Ennis says "Jack..." and Jack cuts him off in anger and turns away saying " Ill see ya next month then"...I would love to know what Ennis was going to say...I think he was grasping for a way to say "don't go...and don't go away mad..." but the girls were in the truck, looking, I'm sure... and Ennis's paranoia gets the best of him once more...he is almost paralyzed in that scene... there is something to be said for the comfortableness he introduces Jack to his girls...I think to Ennis that was a big deal for him...
Todd
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First, let me say that from the many well thought out posts here that I concede Ennis may nothave been an emotional abuser but I do not agree with peteinportland about Jack's nature. I don't see Jack as demanding more from Ennis. Take the scene with the beans. To me he is showing Ennis that they don't have to settle for beans because that's what the rule is. They can kill an Elk and enjoy themselves. To me Jack is showing Ennis that you can fix it. In other threads some posters have compared these 2 to Greek mythology. To me Ennis is a little like Theseus with his labyrinth being his fear. And Jack is like Ariadne who gave Theseus a string to follow out of the labyrinth after he kills the Minotaur. To me Jack personifies this string with his many trips to Wyoming and his many requests to start a life together, slay your fear Ennis and follow me out of the labyrinth. But Ennis never does that. And that is such a problem for me. I'm 26 and the straight heroes that I have grown up with in fiction either overcome their fears or die trying. Ennis does neither. Ennis Del Mar is becoming a big figure in American Culture and in my opinion is also one of it's biggest cowards. And as a gay man that really really bothers me.
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But Mr. Wrong, I don't think I've seen anyone characterize Ennis as a "hero." That's the whole point of the film. Neither of these men are heroes. They are both honorable and cowardly, fundamentally decent and and yet deeply flawed. They're far too complex to be ennobled as a heroes, or alternatively derided as "anti-heroes."
I'm a quintessential Jack, but I think both are decent, caring men who struggle to give meaning to their lives--and struggle to cope with an adverse world and their own inner failings.
And part of the genius of the film for me is that I sympathize with and understand the character of Ennis Del Mar, even though I think his tale serves as a cautionary lesson of what happens when you allow fear, instead of the conscience of your heart, serve as the guiding force of your life. He finally understands this in the end--but, as the audience is starkly reminded, at what cost? The love of his life. If anyone is treated as the hero, it's Jack Twist--the romantic, caring soul whose only wish was to live on a ranch together with his partner, a wish which went tragically unfulfilled. The emotional devastation of the film's ending stems from this missed opportunity.
Furthermore, I would submit that the "anti-hero" of this film is Society. A society that would inculcate a little boy with such hateful, soul-destroying images that it would cause him to hate himself so deeply that he could not commit to Jack or express the only true love he's ever known. That doesn't strip Ennis entirely of the responsibility of his choices; but, alternatively, to ignore just how deeply this internalized homophobia had penetrated his mind would be overlooking a crucial point. We still don't know a lot about human nature, but we do know the lifelong effects that socialization can have.
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But Mr. Wrong, I don't think I've seen anyone characterize Ennis as a "hero." That's the whole point of the film. Neither of these men are heroes. They are both honorable and cowardly, fundamentally decent and and yet deeply flawed. They're far too complex to be ennobled as a heroe, or alternatively derided as an "anti-hero."
I'm a quintessential Jack, but I think both are decent, caring men who struggle to give meaning to their lives--and struggle to cope with an adverse world and their own inner failings.
And part of the genius of the film for me is that I sympathize and understand the character of Ennis Del Mar, even though I think his tale serves as a cautionary lesson of what happens when you allow fear, instead of the conscience of your heart, to guide your life. He finally gets this in the end--but at what cost? The love of his life.
I still say that the "anti-hero" of this film is Society. A society that would inculcate a little boy with such hateful, soul-destroying images that it would cause him to hate himself so deeply that he cannot commit or express the only true love he's ever known.
Hear, hear....
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Its also so easy to sit back and judge these two cinematic icons...My father was the quintessential Ennis...even Divorcing and remarrying...but he was ultimately profoundly sad and lonely when he died. He couldn't be himself for fear of society's backlash...he feared for his life, his sons and his wives, but he could never truly be himself...in the late 60 early 70s he could have never been a teacher if his sexual makeup was known...I know what that fear looks like and feels like...and Ennis does try his hardest, the best he can, and we cant ask more from him..... but sometimes its just not enough. Sometimes a live is full of regret.
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Sorry I didn't discover this thread before. Who'd a thunk to look for character analysis under "truck scenes". Some mechanism for cross referencing must be in order.
Anyway, in the book, both E and J are, if not heroic, at least way above average in decency. There are a lot of men in Ennis' position vis-a-vis Alma who would in that time period just disappear and dodge child support obligations. There are a lot of men in Jack's position vis-a-vis the father, who would turn their back; he is the faithful son, even despite the apparent history of paternal rejection and abuse.
What ennobles them, at least to this audience, is their relationship. That's the thing. F.Scott Fitzgerald also bottled the same thing in The Great Gatsby.
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Thanks for the translations, everyone. Yet another layer of meaning. I would have thought that, after reading thousands of posts about this movie, my interest would have waned by now. But I still find myself scouring this board, the movie and the story for any clues that help give me a better understanding of these four characters. Since I generally have the attention span of a gnat (particularly when it comes to movies), that's nothing short of miraculous.
go to the Ennis and Cassie scene thread...the words to "Sweet Malissa" will blow you away...the sad song Ennis plays when he is at the bar with Cassie and Alma J.
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To me it seemed that, at Thanksgiving dinner, Alma obviously still loved Ennis..his little story about his brief bronc-busting career softened her face (was that a hint of a smile?)...and the loss and pain of the end of the marriage she felt then exploded with the accusation about the fishing trips....the Jack Nasty comment...as if saying, what the hell were you doing when you had us 3 at home?
I also see how hard Ennis is trying to be a good father..imagine how hard it was for him to be at that table..he was devastated by the divorce..yet he went...adores his children (this is written out in the short story).
Contrast that with Jack...who seems a bitter disappointment to Lureen, except for the fleeting moment when he finally stands up to her father..otherwise he seems an embarassment to her
...and how different Jack is with his son.....aside from the "No hands" tracker shot..not much of a bond...and it is so disturbing that he's ready to abandon his son at a moment's notice if Ennis ever hinted that they could live together...yet Ennis plays by the rules....he's a father, he has child support, he sticks it out
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...and how different Jack is with his son.....aside from the "No hands" tracker shot..not much of a bond...and it is so disturbing that he's ready to abandon his son at a moment's notice if Ennis ever hinted that they could live together...yet Ennis plays by the rules....he's a father, he has child support, he sticks it out
While Jack certainly displayed a readiness to leave his life in Texas to be with Ennis, that doesn't mean he would have completely "abandoned" his son. When parents divorce, both can still remain in the child's life. His son would have likely stayed with Lureen, where the money and security was, but I think Jack loved his son and would have wanted to remain a part of his life. He and Lureen could have worked out a system of periodic visits, at the very least.
Apart from the "no hands" shot (which was quite lovely), we also have Jack being the parent who pushes for a tutor for his son, while Lureen remains indifferent; and Jack obviously cares enough to appropriately discipline his son in the Thanksgiving scene.
I also think that Jack's readiness to leave his life stemmed from his being made to feel inadequate by everyone around him. Lureen seemed disappointed and bored, while L.D. was outright hostile and demeaned his son-in-law at every chance he got. No wonder Jack was miserable.
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your point about the tutor is well taken Scot88...but in the short story...late in the story..Jack reveals his disappointment with having kids, having a son who is "dyslexic, or something.."
was a scary reminder of the sentiment from Jack's own father...I was really taken aback by this passage in AP's short story
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your point about the tutor is well taken Scot88...but in the short story...late in the story..Jack reveals his disappointment with having kids, having a son who is "dyslexic, or something.."
In the story, Jack admits he never wanted kids, but this is unrelated to Bobby being dyslexic. He simply hadn't wanted kids, period, but was obviously pressured by Lureen to have a child.
In terms of Bobby's dyslexia, the passage you refer to has Jack telling Ennis that he knows that Bobby has this disorder, but Lureen is deep in denial about it. Since Lureen "had the money and called the shots", Jack is frustrated that he can't do anything to help his son. IMHO, if anything, this passage shows Jack's love for his son. I think the "dyslexic, or something" comment is more a reflection of Jack's lack of education rather than indifference. It's clear that he is very concerned about his son's education, but feels helpless.
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but what follows is "I didn't want none a either kind," said Jack. "But fuck-all has worked the way I wanted. Nothin never come to my hand the right way."
couple that with ready to leave Texas at a moment's notice....
I can't help feel that part of Jack's comment to Lureen regarding the tutor was a comment on her detachment from the marriage and family..
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but what follows is "I didn't want none a either kind," said Jack. "But fuck-all has worked the way I wanted. Nothin never come to my hand the right way."
Right, he never wanted children. But that has nothing to do with Bobby being dyslexic. He just had never wanted children, period.
I can't help feel that part of Jack's comment to Lureen regarding the tutor was a comment on her detachment from the marriage and family..
Except he had been obviously talking to the teacher on Bobby's behalf to the point where the teacher didn't like him. He clearly was looking out for Bobby's best interests. It was Lureen who couldn't be bothered.
And the way Jake delivered the line made it clear to me that he was trying to do right by his son.
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but what follows is "I didn't want none a either kind," said Jack. "But fuck-all has worked the way I wanted. Nothin never come to my hand the right way."
Right, he never wanted children. But that has nothing to do with Bobby being dyslexic. He just had never wanted children, period.
I can't help feel that part of Jack's comment to Lureen regarding the tutor was a comment on her detachment from the marriage and family..
Except he had been obviously talking to the teacher on Bobby's behalf to the point where the teacher didn't like him. He clearly was looking out for Bobby's best interests. It was Lureen who couldn't be bothered.
And the way Jake delivered the line made it clear to me that he was trying to do right by his son.
This is an example (one of only two, really; the other being the amount of sex Jack and Ennis have) of the movie softening the short story.
After my second viewing this afternoon I'm convinced that the Twist family thanksgiving is the weakest scene in the movie, whose sole purpose was to prove that homos can be Real Men too. It was audience-pandering at its most basic, and it worked: the audience whooped and hollered with glee when Jack gave L.D. that verbal beat-down.
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While there may have been an element of audience-pandering, I believe the scene is important for at least two reasons. The first, it underscores the misery of Jack's life in Texas. He looks totally beside himself and out of place. Even after he's "taken control" of the situation by calling L.D. out on his behavior, we see a shot of Jack sighing discontentedly. This is very far from the life he envisioned for himself -- a life with Ennis.
Secondly, it also signals Jack's willingness to stop subordinating his own needs and learning to stand up for himself. Obviously, L.D. is the focus in this scene. But I also believe this foreshadows the final fishing trip, when Jack finally tells Ennis how pained and lonely he's been as a result of their 2-weeks-a-year arrangement. Up to that point, the sadness and frustration had been simmering under the surface, but Jack never said a word. He finally opened up about it.
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I guess we'll have to agree to disagree...my own take on it is that ennis is repeatedly shown (short story and movie)demonstrating affection toward his girls..it seems striking (I guess that type of intimacy is safe for him) given how restricted he is with emotions otherwise...he runs to his toddler daughter when sick and crying, fusses over them, continues to kiss them goodbye when leaving on a "fishing trip" with Jack (but alas not Alma), strokes their cheek calling them angels at Thanksgiving dinner
Jack on the other hand isn't shown to have any real relationship with Bobbie..I sense disappointment in his voice when talking to Ennis about having children in the short story.....he is ready to leave his married life (and son) in an instant for Ennis, directly opposed to Ennis' comment about duties and child support
all of this hit me because Jack seems the nurturer of the relationship with Ennis..always comforting him...telling him all will be OK...seems a contradiction then when looking at their individual lives in Riverton and Childress
I think the other thing that strikes me about these dinner scenes is that Ennis wanted his marriage, was devastated that it didn't work...I really feel that there was love between Alma and Ennis but for many reasons it could not last.
Lureen and Jack just seem to have gone thru the motions.....defy daddy and fall in love with a rodeo bullrider..but aside from that little smile she cracked as Jack stood up to big daddy, he was a disappointment to her...what a look she gave when at work, overhearing 2 guys describe Jack as the piss-ant that tried to ride bulls.
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While there may have been an element of audience-pandering, I believe the scene is important for at least two reasons. The first, it underscores the misery of Jack's life in Texas. He looks totally beside himself and out of place. Even after he's "taken control" of the situation by calling L.D. out on his behavior, we see a shot of Jack sighing discontentedly. This is very far from the life he envisioned for himself -- a life with Ennis.
But Lee provides more than enough scenes in which we understand how rotten Jack's (and Ennis') life is. This is the only one that felt didactic.
Secondly, it also signals Jack's willingness to stop subordinating his own needs and to stand up for himself. Obviously, L.D. is the focus in this scene. But I also believe this foreshadows the final fishing trip, when Jack finally telling Ennis how painful and lonely he's been as a result of their 2-weeks-a-year arrangement. Up to that point, the sadness and frustration had been simmering under the surface, but Jack never said a word. He finally opened up about it.
This is true; I hadn't thought of that. Good point.
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Sotoalf, I've spoken to this before (probably the second post in the thread), but I think the two parallel Thanksgiving scenes show how the men deal with having their masculinity threatend. I think masculinity is a huge theme in this work, and Ang uses these scenes to contrast masculinity (Ennis, Jack, LB, Monroe) and how men assert it. I think it is important to both Jack and Ennis that in spite of their love affair that they remain the archtypical male of the American West. They can't lose their manhood to their love. Ang explores this in these scenes.
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Character analysis, DaveL? I think you're right. Maybe I should rename the thread.
I would agree that these are two decent but flawed men who try to be good. Movies about perfect people really aren't very good, and besides, even Superheroes have their flaws nowadays.
It is very clear to me that there is a yin and yang to Ennis and Jack. They are Blakian characters representing innocence and experience (in the Blakian sense Jack represents innocence and Ennis represents experience). One cannot live in this world without both the little lamb and the burning tiger. Where Jack sees the innocence of their love, Ennis sees the danger. Where Jack represents hope, Ennis represents fear. But as William Blake shows us, innocence and experience are two sides of the same coin. We must have both in this life, or we will perish.
Likewise, I can paint many of Jack's actions as selfish and others can paint Ennis' actions as selfish. Neither of us are wrong.
What I still think many fail to see is that Ennis was part and parcel of the land where he grew up. He could not forsake that place and its traditions. Terra Firma is an important concept in literature (especially in regional American Literature such as Literature of the American West) and Annie Proulx one of its masters. One's ties to the land (or region) where one grew up and its traditions are exceptionally important to people in Proulx's fiction. Ennis could not forsake this land, nor his ranch heritage, nor his understanding of how men behave in his Western society.
IMO, I don't think many people understand that the arching tragedy is not that Ennis WON"T live with Jack. He CAN"T. HE can't leave the land, and he can't live openly with Jack on the land in plain view of society. To do so is to emasculate himself, embarrass his family, and invite death. He also can't go to the city to live any more than a Polar Bear can make a new home in Florida. I'm not sure what viewers want from Ennis or what choice they expect him to make. If it were only about fear, I think Ennis would be man enough to stand up to it. It goes much deeper than that to the very crux of his identity.
I do see Ennis as trying very hard to find a way with Jack. He loses jobs, he alienates his wife who finally divorces him, he gives up time with his family, all to be with Jack. It is not enough time for Ennis either, but it is the only way he knows. He truly does not know how to fix it. He doesn't. Here is a scared and scarred emotionally stunted man with a 9th grade education who is thrust into a situation that he can't even begin to comprehend. He does the best HE knows how to do. In hindsight, we as viewers think we know better; but do we really? I'm not sure I see a better way for an Ennis who is immobilized by his ties to Terra Firma, his memories of a mutilated corpse, and his place as a man in the American West.
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Did anybody notice how Ennis showed affection for his daughter at the table the way Jack did to him a scene or two before at the campfire? Jack grabbed Ennis's ear and then stroked his face with the back of his hand. Then Ennis did the same thing to his daughter when he was talking about them being angels and having wings at the Thanksgiving dinner.
It seemed like he was showing love to his daughters in the same way Jack showed him affection. Perhaps another symbol of the universal nature of love.
Or maybe I'm just too observant for my own good.
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Hey everyone.
New to this forum, second post. I'm french, in Paris, so excuse my .... english !
Trucks play a very important part in the movie. And it's no wonder there are so many scenes "by the truck". When they meet, when they first part, when they reunite four years later, when Jack comes after the divorce and has to go back to Texas, when they fight the last day they see each other, when Ennis goes to Jack's folks...
My take on this is that the truck is the modern Cowboy's horse. And we know how conservative Ennis is. But trucks are also in the open vs horses being withdrawn from the world. What a paradox ! BBM would be their closet ! But that's how I see it though. Ennis feels safe to brings two horses for them to ride, but I don't recall seeing them together in a truck at any point in the movie. There's the scene at Ennis place where they reunite after four years. They leave and Jack says he's starving. It shot from the window where Alma is watching but Lee cuts just before they get inside the truck.
The way I see it : for Ennis to be in the truck with Jack is to come out of the closet.
When Jack is looking for his parka, and his wife asks him why he is always the one to drive the 1200 miles, Jack tries to come up with some good excuses, and finally says that Ennis truck wouldn't make it. Doesn't he mean by that "Ennis would never come out of the closet " ?
On the last time they see each other, it really strikes me to see Ennis caressing Jack truck handle. Again, the trucks are here at the closet door, between BBM and the open world. Ready to take them apart. It is interesting to see the horses being held in the trailer, on the trucks.
When Jack shows up after the divorce, Ennis tells him he won't be available because of his daughters. Then, at some point, he looks at the road where a truck is passing by like it's a sudden threat.
Just a thought....
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Did anybody notice how Ennis showed affection for his daughter at the table the way Jack did to him a scene or two before at the campfire? Jack grabbed Ennis's ear and then stroked his face with the back of his hand. Then Ennis did the same thing to his daughter when he was talking about them being angels and having wings at the Thanksgiving dinner.
It seemed like he was showing love to his daughters in the same way Jack showed him affection. Perhaps another symbol of the universal nature of love.
Or maybe I'm just too observant for my own good.
that's a nice thought, whelmed. i never related ennis' affection toward jenny to the cheek caresses of his face by jack.
i also saw the wings statement in a different way too, as a cutting remark about the girls ears, something he didn't have, but they did. it seems directed toward alma, as if the girls ears were inherited from their mother. to me, it seemed that this statement pissed off alma. after he says this, the camera cuts to alma's face, she seems angry. they then cut to the sound and visual of monroe cutting the turkey with the electric knife.
in the screenplay, it's said that monroe, at this moment in the film "is cheerful, and a bit smug: despite his unromantic appearance, he has alma."
it's interesting that there's no mention of alma's reaction in the screenplay, but it's clear that ang lee chose to show her in a distressed state, perhaps as a lead-in to the next scene, where she confronts her ex husband about his "fishing trips" and "jack nasty."
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...The women cook the dinner. With Alma, it's assumed; with Lureen, it's stated by Jack because the viewer can't assume Lureen cooked the dinner. With the Jack scenes, we only see the preparation; we never actually see them eat. We never get to see them enjoy the fruits of their labour.
With the Ennis scenes, we see them eat and we seem them clean up. While they're eating, we see Ennis' daughters clearly smitten with their father during dinner. His recounting of his only time as a rodeoperson is the one time he can "one up" Alma's husband. This upsets Alma and this is probably why she confronts him during the clean up. The cleaning up aspect of any gathering is forgotten and ignored until we actually have to do it. The eating of dinner is family time, the cleaning up represents the breaking of the family (as we see the kids watching tv). And it's during the clean up where Alma's split from Ennis is totally final.
i'm not sure if ennis' three second bronc ride, the only one of his career, "one ups" monroe, who is a successful grocer.. but it's nice to read your analysis of ang lee's films. i feel that there's something about the ears that upset alma. call me obsessed with those seemingly vestigial flaps of skin and cartilidge that are used for earrings and ipod headphones (especially if they're covered with feathered hair) but i wanna know if the "wings" statement was what ang lee meant to use to vex the pregnant alma.
your clean up time insights are compelling -- it certainly seems that the family did come undone during that part of the thanksgiving ritual!
there's a song by john lennon called "clean up time, but it seems to describe the twist household:
...The queen is in the counting home, Counting out the money,
The king is in the kitchen, Making bread and honey,
No friends and yet no enemies, Absolutely free,
No rats aboard the magic ship, Of (perfect) harmony,
Now it begins, Cleanup Time, (Show those mothers how to do it)...
...but i digesst! ;)
you say that thanksgiving, cooked by alma, is assumed. however, since monroe was a grocer, and obviously a bit more "culinary" than most (condiments vs. ketchup), it wouldn't surprise me if the bird was stuffed, trussed and basted and baked by the new man of the house in this family. even in the twist household, it's jack that's pouring the au jus and putting the finishing touches (did i see parsley? in texas? lol) on the bird before he brings it out to the table. in my family, dad had a firm hand in the kitchen especially when it came to hunks of meat -- he was a hunter -- and also at the outdoor stove, our barbecue. since alma's turkey was situtated near monroe and he was in charge of the cutting, i might think that both monroe and alma, or even the girls, had a hand in the creation of their holiday meal.
in the twist house, you mention that we never see them eat the fruits of their labour. that's true, and it might have been too much --- imagine the tension in simply passing the food around, and ol' LD sheepishly asking jack to "please pass the butter." ;D
i do LOVE in this scene how fayette newsome is silent the whole time. it's like she's used to putting up with LD's huffing and puffing. to me, she had a certain amount of southern elegance, unlike her husband. it's something she handed down to lureen, who we see turning into her mother, at least where fashion and coiffure is concerned. i counted only two scenes with fayette (hospital and thanksgiving) and didn't know her name, but when she told lureen "i got two whole boxes of formula for you..." in her sing-song southern accent, i smiled. hers was a small role, but like the basque, it was successful nonetheless~!
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My take on this is that the truck is the modern Cowboy's horse. {/quote]
You are somewhat correct Laurent! The pickup truck is a mainstay in rural/cowboy culture. But nothing will replace the horse. The truck is more like an extension of the cowboy and his horse.
On the last time they see each other, it really strikes me to see Ennis caressing Jack truck handle. Again, the trucks are here at the closet door, between BBM and the open world. Ready to take them apart. It is interesting to see the horses being held in the trailer, on the trucks.
When Jack shows up after the divorce, Ennis tells him he won't be available because of his daughters. Then, at some point, he looks at the road where a truck is passing by like it's a sudden threat.
That is really a fantastically fresh point of view. Ang Lee really does do some subtle work (Jake Gyllenhaal has described him as "The master of silence onscreen"). I do know that there was a scene where both men were in the same truck, but that it never made the final cut of the movie. Perhaps in production, they saw that the two of them in the truck would indeed translate to the audience as you saw it.
bienvenue a l'hantise
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It is very clear to me that there is a yin and yang to Ennis and Jack.
That's how Jake G. describes them in the VH-1 Special.
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It is very clear to me that there is a yin and yang to Ennis and Jack.
That's how Jake G. describes them in the VH-1 Special.
Can someone please post a link to this special if it's available online?
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It is very clear to me that there is a yin and yang to Ennis and Jack.
That's how Jake G. describes them in the VH-1 Special.
Can someone please post a link to this special if it's available online?
http://www.logoonline.com/shows/dyn/brokeback_mountain_movie_special/videos.jhtml
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IMO, I don't think many people understand that the arching tragedy is not that Ennis WON"T live with Jack. He CAN"T. HE can't leave the land, and he can't live openly with Jack on the land in plain view of society. To do so is to emasculate himself, embarrass his family, and invite death. He also can't go to the city to live any more than a Polar Bear can make a new home in Florida. I'm not sure what viewers want from Ennis or what choice they expect him to make. If it were only about fear, I think Ennis would be man enough to stand up to it. It goes much deeper than that to the very crux of his identity.
Pete, I agree and am glad you have tried to make this point on various occasions as a reminder. Many are looking through the lens of "2006" and bringing our modern/current views to bear on the situation, which really have little, if anything, to do with Ennis and their situation. It was a "whole different ball game" for Ennis in his time and situation.
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Hey everyone.
New to this forum, second post. I'm french, in Paris, so excuse my .... english !
Trucks play a very important part in the movie. And it's no wonder there are so many scenes "by the truck". When they meet, when they first part, when they reunite four years later, when Jack comes after the divorce and has to go back to Texas, when they fight the last day they see each other, when Ennis goes to Jack's folks...
My take on this is that the truck is the modern Cowboy's horse. And we know how conservative Ennis is. But trucks are also in the open vs horses being withdrawn from the world. What a paradox ! BBM would be their closet ! But that's how I see it though. Ennis feels safe to brings two horses for them to ride, but I don't recall seeing them together in a truck at any point in the movie. There's the scene at Ennis place where they reunite after four years. They leave and Jack says he's starving. It shot from the window where Alma is watching but Lee cuts just before they get inside the truck.
The way I see it : for Ennis to be in the truck with Jack is to come out of the closet.
When Jack is looking for his parka, and his wife asks him why he is always the one to drive the 1200 miles, Jack tries to come up with some good excuses, and finally says that Ennis truck wouldn't make it. Doesn't he mean by that "Ennis would never come out of the closet " ?
On the last time they see each other, it really strikes me to see Ennis caressing Jack truck handle. Again, the trucks are here at the closet door, between BBM and the open world. Ready to take them apart. It is interesting to see the horses being held in the trailer, on the trucks.
When Jack shows up after the divorce, Ennis tells him he won't be available because of his daughters. Then, at some point, he looks at the road where a truck is passing by like it's a sudden threat.
Just a thought....
This is very interesting. You have some very insightful comments. You should also post this in the forum for "symbolism".
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Why not parsley? Jack was the "gay" one after all...
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Here is a quote from Diana Ossana that speaks to much of what we discuss in this thread.
"Ennis and Jack may be obviously gay to the reader/viewer, but in 1963 and even beyond, gays within the working classes barely had a context within which to operate, let alone identify themselves. The character of Jack is much more open to his sexuality and to the possibilities of life than Ennis, and has little fear. Ennis, on the other hand, comes from a place of deep homophobia--not unlike some gays today, sadly enough."
The full text from the advocate.com can be found on the Larry/Diana thread.
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"To me it seemed that, at Thanksgiving dinner, Alma obviously still loved Ennis..his little story about his brief bronc-busting career softened her face (was that a hint of a smile?)..."
I thought Alma looked absolutely disgusted with Ennis, not even able to FAKE a smile.
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What was up with Bobby's (Jack's son) statement about going to be in the turkey for the next two weeks? His accent sounded terrible, like he was from the Bronx or something! Did anyone else find his accent a bit out of place?
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I think the alley scene with Ennis is very powerful. In the novella, it is actually explained during their reunion four years later. In the movie, you are left a little more open to your own version of what is going on.
In the novella, the subject comes up as the men are lying together in the motel after their shared passion. Ennis explains to Jack that the day they parted he felt like he had to wretch. He then explains that it took him a year, but he "finally figured out I never should have let you out of my sight." It was the moment in the book where Jack finally understood that Ennis had been pining for him all the time. It was also the moment where you realize as the reader that perhaps somewhere in the four years that passed, Ennis may have been more open to living with Jack.
The scene in the Mexico alley is all movie. The only allusion to this in the novella is the final confrontation when Ennis accuses Jack of doing things in Mexico he shouldn't be doing. I think the movie scene was added as a balance to the also added drive to Wyoming after the divorce scene. (This event was mentioned very casually late in the story, but never explained in any context.) I think it was all about Jack needing a release from his misery, and it was Jack's way of swiping back at Ennis. Jack could never show his hurt and anger directly to Ennis, but he could act out his disappointment and anger all the same.
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It is very clear to me that there is a yin and yang to Ennis and Jack.
That's how Jake G. describes them in the VH-1 Special.
Can someone please post a link to this special if it's available online?
http://www.logoonline.com/shows/dyn/brokeback_mountain_movie_special/videos.jhtml
Many thanks.
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Character analysis, DaveL? I think you're right. Maybe I should rename the thread.
I would agree that these are two decent but flawed men who try to be good. Movies about perfect people really aren't very good, and besides, even Superheroes have their flaws nowadays.
It is very clear to me that there is a yin and yang to Ennis and Jack. They are Blakian characters representing innocence and experience (in the Blakian sense Jack represents innocence and Ennis represents experience). One cannot live in this world without both the little lamb and the burning tiger. Where Jack sees the innocence of their love, Ennis sees the danger. Where Jack represents hope, Ennis represents fear. But as William Blake shows us, innocence and experience are two sides of the same coin. We must have both in this life, or we will perish.
Likewise, I can paint many of Jack's actions as selfish and others can paint Ennis' actions as selfish. Neither of us are wrong.
What I still think many fail to see is that Ennis was part and parcel of the land where he grew up. He could not forsake that place and its traditions. Terra Firma is an important concept in literature (especially in regional American Literature such as Literature of the American West) and Annie Proulx one of its masters. One's ties to the land (or region) where one grew up and its traditions are exceptionally important to people in Proulx's fiction. Ennis could not forsake this land, nor his ranch heritage, nor his understanding of how men behave in his Western society.
IMO, I don't think many people understand that the arching tragedy is not that Ennis WON"T live with Jack. He CAN"T. HE can't leave the land, and he can't live openly with Jack on the land in plain view of society. To do so is to emasculate himself, embarrass his family, and invite death. He also can't go to the city to live any more than a Polar Bear can make a new home in Florida. I'm not sure what viewers want from Ennis or what choice they expect him to make. If it were only about fear, I think Ennis would be man enough to stand up to it. It goes much deeper than that to the very crux of his identity.
I do see Ennis as trying very hard to find a way with Jack. He loses jobs, he alienates his wife who finally divorces him, he gives up time with his family, all to be with Jack. It is not enough time for Ennis either, but it is the only way he knows. He truly does not know how to fix it. He doesn't. Here is a scared and scarred emotionally stunted man with a 9th grade education who is thrust into a situation that he can't even begin to comprehend. He does the best HE knows how to do. In hindsight, we as viewers think we know better; but do we really? I'm not sure I see a better way for an Ennis who is immobilized by his ties to Terra Firma, his memories of a mutilated corpse, and his place as a man in the American West.
(Sorry, Pete. This is a long one and I've had to break it up.)
Pete, you raise an excellent point about there being something more than fear that motivates Ennis' refusal to live with Jack--or to spend more than a few visits a year with him. And I think the truck scene which is the subject of this thread brings it out extremely well. Fear alone seems insufficient to explain Ennis’ behavior. We know that he has no fear of fighting, even against the odds, as he does at the Fourth of July picnic. It also appears ridiculous that Ennis would be swayed solely by a fear that the people in a passing truck on the highway in the distance might see his discussion with Jack as evidence that he is gay. But there is something stronger than fear involved. What works so powerfully and insidiously on Ennis here and throughout what we see of his life is shame--a deep and haunting, enfeebling and emasculating shame. When Ennis looks at Jack--Jack, who, in rushing to his side after learning of the divorce, has just offered him a sincere and guileless token of a precious love--and then looks at the passing truck in the distance, he feels Jack’s love and his own deep feelings in response and is ashamed to be feeling that in public--even though it’s ridiculous to think anyone can see it. This is the unmistakable sign of the shame he feels. But it is not a shame without relief. He doesn’t feel it when he and Jack are alone--in the wilderness or in a hotel room, or even in front of Alma at the reunion as he introduces Jack to her, when the joy and affection at being together again with Jack are just too strong to let the shame take hold. And, most revealingly, he doesn’t feel it in this truck scene in the presence of his daughters--at least not enough to make him refrain from introducing them to Jack or having them treat him with respect. It is because he feels an assuring acceptance from daughters who quite evidently adore him. (Their exalting love and acceptance has the power to ward off the shame and allow him to see the feelings he has for Jack in all their unadulterated purity, at least for a moment. I think the transformative power of his daughters' love and acceptance is instrumental also in Ennis' last scene with Alma Jr. He even refers at the Thanksgiving dinner to his daughters as his angels.) Such a feeling of being accepted for who you are even if you haven’t revealed your secret is the sort of thing that makes a gay man think or say to a friend, “Yes, I’ve never said anything about it, but I feel sure that my father/mother/brother/sister/son/daughter/friend would just want me to be happy.” But it is most certainly not what Ennis could expect from those around him who do not know and love him in this way.
The shame Ennis feels is familiar to some of us from an early age--those of us who are indoctrinated from boyhood into thinking that our yearning for other males is somehow weak and emasculating--the sign of an inner and indelible taint upon our souls. Ennis clearly feels it, and I think has suffered through some form of it throughout his entire life. That is what makes him bent and shuffling in movement and awkward in manner among other people (those he doesn’t know--especially other men). Shame is what is most corrosive to masculine honor and dignity and that is what is at the heart of the problem for Ennis and what causes so much suffering for Jack. But you cannot eradicate this shame if you do not first acknowledge it. At most you can carve out little portions of your life as a sanctuary from its daily assaults.
The shame that so distorts Ennis’ actions throughout so much of his life goes unrecognized, or at most gets confused with fear or the rational avoidance of danger--until his final visit with Jack, when he collapses after Jack says he wishes he knew how to quit him, threatening the removal of Jack’s love, the strongest bulwark against the shame that threatens to overwhelm him. In part, Ennis is crying out not to be abandoned--left isolated without the protective wall of Jack’s love to hold back the torrent of shame that will surely engulf him if he faces it alone. The feeling of desolation is all the more palpable because, as Ennis says, he is nothing--he has none of the things a man might display to ward off shame when he wonders how he measures up. When he has Jack’s love, even while Jack is absent, he can retreat in imagination, memory and anticipation to love’s protective shell and ennobling value. But if Jack’s love is denied, even that will be impossible. Given that Jack may well have been the only man ever to admire and love Ennis, the loss of his love and approval would intensify Ennis’ feelings of shame for having been the cause of that loss--to say nothing of having thrown away a pearl richer than all his tribe. The most devastating part, but the most natural progression in the working out of his shame, is this: Ennis is also telling Jack that he should quit him because Ennis does not deserve him. The shame is now feeding on itself. Then comes the almost childish defense: I may not deserve your love but I am this way because you made me like this. Absolutely heart rending.
(Continued below...)
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(Continued from above ...)
The process of coming out of the closet certainly involves dealing with fear, but it most significantly involves dealing with shame. It is only shame and the fears that it produces that could explain behavior that otherwise seems inexplicable. Often the fears shame produces seem unreasonable or irrational when shame is left out of the picture. Fear may prompt you to try to save yourself, but what shame adds to the equation is a sense that you are not worth saving--at its worst, that you are worthless. Another scene that illustrates this is when Ennis starts a fight with the driver of the pickup after rushing out from the exchange with Alma on Thanksgiving night. He is angry, but he is also feeling shame--at being exposed by Alma. He attacks the driver ferociously. But somewhere during the fight he seems to give up and allow the driver to pummel him mercilessly. It’s as if he’s decided that this is what he has coming to him, this is what he deserves. This giving up is hard to explain without understanding the shame and how it’s working on Ennis, whispering, “You are worthless and deserve this beating.” The chilling irony is that this is just what his father, oh those many years ago, taught the innocent, impressionable young boy, too young then to know better. The saddest aspect of the Thanksgiving exchange is that Ennis doesn’t realize that Alma found out about him and Jack by actually seeing them kiss during the reunion years before. He never finds this out. He comes away thinking that somehow it shows. It is apparent that he’s gay if you look at him. He is so disturbed by this new sense of shame that he even confides this fear to Jack on their next meeting. But Jack--who is without shame in the best sense--doesn’t understand why Ennis--of all people Ennis--could think such a thing. I think this development with Alma has great psychological relevance to Ennis and serves to undo any evolution Jack may be effecting upon him. The tragedy is that Ennis is so susceptible to this unfortunate exchange with Alma because he has already been primed for it by his father’s cruel action when he was a boy. Poor Ennis as an innocent lad was shown a grisly scene and told this was what men like that deserve--before he ever expressed such feelings, perhaps even before he felt them. Yet his sweet little mind must have concluded that his daddy saw something in him that made him deliver such an admonition. Shame must have resulted at having something within which displeased his father so. And when the feelings about other males began to surface, they must only have confirmed and intensified the shame that already existed. One can only shudder at the misfortune of having two such incidents happen to poor Ennis--and wish that Jack and he had talked these things out before they worked their fierce and diabolical magic upon the two of them.
As to any of this being related to his identity--I would say Ennis is wrestling with the same conflict we all experience when we are faced with resolving the tension between our sense of our own masculinity and what society tells us we must be like because we have feelings for other men. The process of coming out is often in some significant way connected with this. It is no more impossible for Ennis to resolve this problem than it is for the rest of us. As difficult as it is for any of us, it may just have been more difficult--much more difficult--for Ennis, given his childhood trauma, his father’s hideous character, and his Western surroundings and isolation, and the absence of a loving mother like Jack’s--not to mention his introversion. One of the profoundly tragic ironies of the story is that what would most have helped him on this score is what he is denied, and indeed, what he takes pains to prevent--spending more time with Jack. Had they only been able to spend that additional month on Brokeback--especially as they would have been able to anticipate their impending departure--Ennis might have evolved to a more satisfactory point enabling his progress toward commitment to Jack to be less tragically slow. Had Ennis spent more time with Jack through the years, he might have learned more about how to work through the shame and integrate his sexuality with his masculine dignity. For Ennis is at his most virile when he is in the presence of Jack--partly no doubt because then he has a reprieve from shame. (The only other times he acts with assertiveness, daring and confidence are when he is moved to an animal rage--though one senses that this is always somewhere inside him.) With Jack he displays a masculine grace and self-assurance and an easy sense of humor. He even holds himself differently. You can see this beginning to happen as early as the remarkably revealing scene after they first meet when Ennis follows Jack to the bar. Ennis is behind and in lock step with Jack--watching his every move and evidently trying to copy his gait. You can almost see the boyish admiration at work. Jack is the more effortlessly masculine of the two--his movements are confident but not ostentatious, flowing, self-assured and wholly at ease. You can see this from the very beginning in the way he props himself against his truck and the way he wipes his face after shaving (and looking at Ennis) in the truck mirror. He has an ingratiating, smooth and manly charm almost guaranteed to put you at ease. Jack is almost always at ease with his maleness. And it seems a virility without pettiness or grandstanding. (Even when he stands up to his father in law there is no look of superiority or exultation in his eyes. There is just disappointment for having had to act that way.) Ennis is captivated from the beginning. Aside from Jack’s powerful animal magnetism and good looks, he may well have been the first potent male figure in Ennis’ experience ever to be non-threatening, non-judgmental, and to offer support, approval and affection. If only Ennis had had more exposure to such benign and supportive masculine influences, especially from Jack, he might have developed into the man we all wanted him to be and saved Jack in the process. As it is, it falls to Ennis’ loving memory of Jack after his death to continue to guide the transformation.
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What a great set of posts, Cowboysnkisses. Your message makes a lot of great points and zeros in on observations others have failed to make. I think we forget that Ennis doesn't know Alma saw them kissing, so her confrontation of him post-Thanksgiving must have taken him utterly by surprise. If she suspected, Ennis wonders, who else must suspect? Am I that obviously queer? If I am, there's no way in hell I could risk being seen around town with Jack all the time.
It's not just fear of the tire iron that grips Ennis - it's the shame. Hell, the tire iron would be the easy way out. I think a lot of city folks who watch this film have no understanding of just what it would feel like to be an outcast in a small town. His children would be encouraged to revile him. His remaining family would find out and disown him. He'd be left with nothing and no one, which we know is a fate Ennis fears more than death. Sure he might have Jack, but what if Jack should leave him? What about when something happens to Jack, as something happened to one member of that old gay couple Ennis knew as a child?
Prolux really wrote these two characters into a cage there was no escape from. That's what makes Brokeback Mountain such a compelling tragedy, in the great Greek tradition.
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It is very clear to me that there is a yin and yang to Ennis and Jack. They are Blakian characters representing innocence and experience (in the Blakian sense Jack represents innocence and Ennis represents experience). One cannot live in this world without both the little lamb and the burning tiger. Where Jack sees the innocence of their love, Ennis sees the danger. Where Jack represents hope, Ennis represents fear. But as William Blake shows us, innocence and experience are two sides of the same coin. We must have both in this life, or we will perish.
IMO, I don't think many people understand that the arching tragedy is not that Ennis WON"T live with Jack. He CAN"T. HE can't leave the land, and he can't live openly with Jack on the land in plain view of society. To do so is to emasculate himself, embarrass his family, and invite death. He also can't go to the city to live any more than a Polar Bear can make a new home in Florida. I'm not sure what viewers want from Ennis or what choice they expect him to make. If it were only about fear, I think Ennis would be man enough to stand up to it. It goes much deeper than that to the very crux of his identity.
I do see Ennis as trying very hard to find a way with Jack. He loses jobs, he alienates his wife who finally divorces him, he gives up time with his family, all to be with Jack. It is not enough time for Ennis either, but it is the only way he knows. He truly does not know how to fix it. He doesn't. Here is a scared and scarred emotionally stunted man with a 9th grade education who is thrust into a situation that he can't even begin to comprehend. He does the best HE knows how to do. In hindsight, we as viewers think we know better; but do we really? I'm not sure I see a better way for an Ennis who is immobilized by his ties to Terra Firma, his memories of a mutilated corpse, and his place as a man in the American West.
Just brilliant Peter. Love the Blakean references and I agree wholeheartedly that Ennis is trying very hard. I do believe that he was on the crux of his own crisis [having said 'I can't stand this' as he breaks down in Jacks arms at the end] and this makes the tragedy all the more palpable at the end. Thank you [and how did I miss THIS little treasure trove!]
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So many insightful and interesting points. I do think that one thing people must accept is that a _childhood_ trauma such as the one inflicted on Ennis in the dead gay man scene is not something many people EVER overcome without years of therapy. Even then, some childhood traumas cannot be relieved. They are not rational and are a part of the self's most fundamental makeup. A more pertinent question might be : fear not of what, but for whom? I do agree with the posted impression concerning Jack's wanting out of the pup tent, not wanting to settle for beans, etc - Ennis does take care of him. (And yes it's a physical taking care of, and Jack's is an emotional taking care of - "it's ok, it's ok" - each gives according to his ability - a mutual caring and support). Is it not that Ennis is terrified something will happen to JACK, his most precious thing, if they live together? We see that Ennis has no fear for himself physically in his violent outbursts and confrontations.
I admit that there is undoubtedly an element of shame in Ennis's motivations, but do not think it the dominant theme. I also don't get the strong self-hatred thing often suggested. I just don't see it. Maybe self-disappointment and some shame.
I do think this is an interesting take on their meeting:
With Jack he displays a masculine grace and self-assurance and an easy sense of humor. He even holds himself differently. You can see this beginning to happen as early as the remarkably revealing scene after they first meet when Ennis follows Jack to the bar. Ennis is behind and in lock step with Jack--watching his every move and evidently trying to copy his gait. You can almost see the boyish admiration at work. Jack is the most effortlessly masculine of the two--his movements are confident but not ostentatious, flowing, self-assured and wholly at ease. You can see this from the very beginning in the way he props himself against his truck and the way he wipes his face after shaving (and looking at Ennis) in the truck mirror. He has an ingratiating, smooth and manly charm almost guaranteed to put you at ease. Jack is almost always at ease with his maleness. And it seems a virility without pettiness or grandstanding. (Even when he stands up to his father in law there is no look of superiority or exultation in his eyes. There is just disappointment for having had to act that way.) Ennis is captivated from the beginning. Aside from Jack’s powerful animal magnetism and good looks, he may well have been the first potent male figure in Ennis’ experience ever to be non-threatening, non-judgmental, and to offer support, approval and affection. If only Ennis had had more exposure to such benign and supportive masculine influences, especially from Jack, he might have developed into the man we all wanted him to be and saved Jack in the process. As it is, it falls to Ennis’ loving memory of Jack after his death to continue to guide the transformation.
Very interesting and heartwarming (remember they are both very young here) and I will have to watch this scene with new eyes on my 12th viewing tomorrow afternoon. If one accepts this interpretation, and it is an attractive one, makes a great deal of intuitive sense, then this opens up a new vein in consideration of their relationship: Ennis can supplement his own damaged feelings of masculinity with Jack; in an esoteric way, he can draw on Jack's masculinity by being with him and add it to his own. Another reason for Ennis to love and need Jack.
javascript:void(0);he may well have been the first potent male figure in Ennis’ experience ever to be non-threatening, non-judgmental, and to offer support, approval and affection.
For a man attracted to men, this could be a powerful thing indeed. Love could easily grow from such.
I do think Jack sincerely wanted to be with Ennis but as noted living closer wouldn't have made any difference. Ennis had set the boundaries and until he was ready to change them nothing would alter their routine. Jack made it clear he would live in a tent with nothing if he could be with his love. It IS clear, at least to me, in Ennis's last breakdown, when he says 'I honestly can't stand this anymore', that he has suffered painfully the loneliness and longing for Jack; they are on equal footing here. And he lets Jack know he misses him just as much as Jack misses Ennis - he just has a harder time saying it. And I most wholeheartedly agree that the breaking point has come - Ennis is ripe for 'fixin' it now that it can no longer be stood, though it has taken 20 years and may well take another year or two. I think he sees that something must be done, and we all know he can never give up Jack.
Both have sacrificed heavily for a love they cannot fight, cannot let go of and can't live without. I am somewhat taken aback by weak-hearted analyses which don't seem to me to understand the nature of true love. I wonder if folks who would so readily dismiss love have ever truly loved? So much is easy these days; so many are unwilling to accept hard work and sacrifice. I do not think the true-hearted ever let go of love, but fight kicking and scratching for it as long as there is breath in their body. Call me a romantic, but that's how I am. And I would expect the same of my other half.
And as for finding other loves, in a world of 6 billion, I'll tell ya this: it's a lot harder than it may seem. True love ain't around every corner and it was a damn miracle those two boys found it and they knew it. My best friend, shortly before he died, after I lamented a love lost (dumped again!), responded, "at least you've had love." He never did, and sadly, passed from this earth without ever having made that most important of all connections. So I have consoled myself the last 17 loveless years with that remembrance. I don't know what people are calling 'love' these days, but I see precious little of it, even in people who claim to be in love; the love they claim seems to have no staying power, no depth, it is a weak, convenient and vain thing; they let it go too easily and don't appreciate it if they really have it. A rare and precious commodity; at least Jack and Ennis realized it does not necessarily come again if even once into each life. Two people, damaged and imperfect as we all are, rather than finding them lacking for their all-too-obvious faults, I praise them that despite those, they held onto that love with all the strength they had (think of the fierceness of that final embrace) no matter the cost, knowing it was returned with equal fervor. And that, my friends, makes them heroes to me. And so I will think of them.
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You know buddy it is a good observation you make about how scarred Ennis might be by the scene of the dead man in the ditch. We see this flashback bathed in a bright almost painful light. It is the most brightly lit scene in the entire movie (shot in an almost unnatural light). I think this is due to what we are supposed to get from that flashback. This is the most searing memory from Ennis childhood, and the one he most vividly recalls.
I do know that shame is the often the biggest burden one faces with internalized homophobia, and I love cowboys take on this (so much so I posted the link to his post in several other places on the Board).
Since this is a thread about the truck scenes, I do think the second truck scene encapsulates in its brief moments almost everything we have discussed in the past few pages about these characters. That one small scene in its brevity really speaks volumes about these two characters and how they relate to one another.
And, this thread, IMO, is simpily amazing!
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Maybe the Bronx, but I thought he'd learned to mumble (by osmosis) from his "uncle" Ennis.
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Hey there Cowboysnkisses - your eloquent remarks about shame being the most corrosive thing and how we all grew up with a certain amount of shame about our orientations is so stunningly beautiful and concise that i'm going to re-read it several times as i've been working on this since seeing this film. I think i'd put it away in a closet for a long time.
I thank you for putting this into words.
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Both have sacrificed heavily for a love they cannot fight, cannot let go of and can't live without. I am somewhat taken aback by weak-hearted analyses which don't seem to me to understand the nature of true love. I wonder if folks who would so readily dismiss love have ever truly loved? So much is easy these days; so many are unwilling to accept hard work and sacrifice. I do not think the true-hearted ever let go of love, but fight kicking and scratching for it as long as there is breath in their body. Call me a romantic, but that's how I am. And I would expect the same of my other half.
And as for finding other loves, in a world of 6 billion, I'll tell ya this: it's a lot harder than it may seem. True love ain't around every corner and it was a damn miracle those two boys found it and they knew it. My best friend, shortly before he died, after I lamented a love lost (dumped again!), responded, "at least you've had love." He never did, and sadly, passed from this earth without ever having made that most important of all connections. So I have consoled myself the last 17 loveless years with that remembrance. I don't know what people are calling 'love' these days, but I see precious little of it, even in people who claim to be in love; the love they claim seems to have no staying power, no depth, it is a weak, convenient and vain thing; they let it go too easily and don't appreciate it if they really have it. A rare and precious commodity; at least Jack and Ennis realized it does not necessarily come again if even once into each life. Two people, damaged and imperfect as we all are, rather than finding them lacking for their all-too-obvious faults, I praise them that despite those, they held onto that love with all the strength they had (think of the fierceness of that final embrace) no matter the cost, knowing it was returned with equal fervor. And that, my friends, makes them heroes to me. And so I will think of them.
hear hear....
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I have nothing to add to this on-going conversation, except these words:
Thank you all, for your wonderful thoughts. This scene is one of my favorites from the film and seeing how others have been affected by it makes me so glad to have found this forum.
I don't know what people are calling 'love' these days, but I see precious little of it, even in people who claim to be in love; the love they claim seems to have no staying power, no depth, it is a weak, convenient and vain thing; they let it go too easily and don't appreciate it if they really have it. A rare and precious commodity; at least Jack and Ennis realized it does not necessarily come again if even once into each life. Two people, damaged and imperfect as we all are, rather than finding them lacking for their all-too-obvious faults, I praise them that despite those, they held onto that love with all the strength they had (think of the fierceness of that final embrace) no matter the cost, knowing it was returned with equal fervor. And that, my friends, makes them heroes to me. And so I will think of them.
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With the Jack scenes, we only see the preparation; we never actually see them eat. We never get to see them enjoy the fruits of their labour.
With the Ennis scenes, we see them eat and we seem them clean up.
Great insight. Structurally, the two scenes play together as one continuous meal - preparation, sitting down, carving, eating, cleaning up. It's almost as if both families are eating together as one big family - which in fact is what they are. One big family connected through Jack and Ennis's love.
I love it!
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I love reading everyone's posts, but its not too often I feel like I have something original to contribute.
The scene in Mexico partly is there to show Jack's disappointment after Ennis' divorce, but also to show that Jack has always been "riding more than bulls" when he isn't with Ennis. In the story, the final confrontation about Jack's activities in Mexico was "late and unexpected". He had been bracing for this for 20 years already but like everything else, they never discussed it.
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Very good point. When I re-read the novella, I was surprised I had forgotten that Jack was a "free spirit" when it came to loving men. His experience level was much higher than the movie portrays.
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Very good point. When I re-read the novella, I was surprised I had forgotten that Jack was a "free spirit" when it came to loving men. His experience level was much higher than the movie portrays.
I think different men have different sex drives and sometimes, a part of a male relationship is negotiatin how open or closed it will be. It's often a deal breaker and should be if tha two are not compatible in that regard.
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It is very clear to me that there is a yin and yang to Ennis and Jack. They are Blakian characters representing innocence and experience (in the Blakian sense Jack represents innocence and Ennis represents experience). One cannot live in this world without both the little lamb and the burning tiger. Where Jack sees the innocence of their love, Ennis sees the danger. Where Jack represents hope, Ennis represents fear. But as William Blake shows us, innocence and experience are two sides of the same coin. We must have both in this life, or we will perish.
Very nice. I would also add that Lee and Proulx, like William Blake, blurred the lines between lamb and tiger. In terms of sexual experience and his insight into Ennis' nature, Jack is the tiger, while Ennis is the meek lamb.
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What a great set of posts, Cowboysnkisses. Your message makes a lot of great points and zeros in on observations others have failed to make. I think we forget that Ennis doesn't know Alma saw them kissing, so her confrontation of him post-Thanksgiving must have taken him utterly by surprise.
Prolux really wrote these two characters into a cage there was no escape from. That's what makes Brokeback Mountain such a compelling tragedy, in the great Greek tradition.
I reread the story last night and in the story, it's quite clear that he knew she saw them.
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It's not just fear of the tire iron that grips Ennis - it's the shame. Hell, the tire iron would be the easy way out. I think a lot of city folks who watch this film have no understanding of just what it would feel like to be an outcast in a small town.
My thoughts exactly. It's even somewhat true in a small city like Lubbock though it's certainly gotten much better in tha 22 years I've been here.
A personal view on shame and self-consciousness. Mine. When I was a young man, it took a long time for me ta become comfortable with who and what I was. I think that was due ta bein raised Baptist and also from not bein takin for gay and hearin what tha straight guys I hung out with actually said about gays amongst themselves as oppsed ta what they said to their girlfriends and others when they're bein "politically correct." Face it, people probably would be more silent around Jack and talk behind his back - tha way Lureen overheard tha guys talkin about him at tha office. But someone like Ennis passes as straight so he hears everything people actually think. He hears it unfiltered cause no one thinks he's gay. I can tell ya firsthand, that's terribly stressful. It's petrifyin.
I lived in a men's dorm for 5 years in college and ran with tha guys. None of them knew I was gay for years. I learned that when guys are together, they talk big and say what they think they're supposed ta say and go with tha pack. And I did too. I slowly got ta know some of tha guys better and trust them and they're tha ones I was able ta just be myself to. Ones I knew I could trust. I've found that if ya talk to guys one on one, you can find out which ones are comfortable with their sexuality and they're fine with yours. I've used this stategy my whole life and tha majority of my closest friends are straight men. They just like all tha sports and stuff I 've always genuinely liked. I grew up in a sports oriented household with all male children and I just came out wired to like those things, but also to be attracted to men.
There are defiitely advantages and disadvantages to bein able to pass as straight - but one of tha biggest disadvantages is bein able to hear people's unedited opinions of homosexuality because they don't think you're gay. And think: "OH, Shit. That's me" Until you can work your way through it, you tense up when you're out with a date in public. When a family member or friend hugs you, that's fine, but when a love interest or someone else who's gay hugs you, ya tense up automatically outta reflex. Sometimes, even in private, you hold back unless you feel totally safe. But I do think most men eventually work on through it. The ones that don't are Ennis Del Mar. It's much worse in a very small town or a conservative small city than it is in a larger and/or more liberal place.
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[........]Personally, MY hope is that Jack kept on for so long because, like most romantics, he felt that love has to win out over fear in the end. We see that when he says in the second truck scene "All right. I'll see you next month, then." He is signalling that he will not give up, that he will continue to hope and will continue to love.
Thank you, thank you, thank you! I think you have summed it up perfectly!
Call me a hopeless romantic but I refuse to believe that Jack would give into fear.
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Wow. Some absolutely amazing (and spot on, I think) posts about Ennis's shame. I think his actions make perfect sense when viewed through the lens of shame. A lot to think about here.
Another, very minor, point to make about the truck scene after the divorce is that not only does Ennis get anxious when he sees another car drive by his house, but that Jack has already said, "Had to ask 'bout ten different people in Riverton where you was livin'." You can bet that freaked Ennis out. I'm sure, in his paranoia and shame, he would be worried about what people would think about an unknown man asking about where he lived.
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Heya, everyone. First post after lurking about a month (!!!).
Have to say that Cowboysnkisses' post above is really impressive...taking the single theme of masculine shame and following its threads so closely really helps explain a lot of Ennis' behavior.
When I was coming up, I was fearful about other men discovering I was homosexual; but that was fear of the tire iron. I understand the shame concept, because I've felt that I've not cut it as a man in several keys ways during my life. But I've never felt shame about being gay...I don't innately get that...I have a hard time feeling shame, I think, about something beyond my control. Therefore, I really missed this aspect of Ennis, and I thank Cowboy again for blessing us with the analysis.
I would like to remind folks, along the shame axis, about something they seem to have forgotten when I see 'em discussing the flashback, the Ennis-holding-Jack-while-he-sleeps-on-his-feet scene. From the story:
Nothing marred [those moments], even the knowledge that Ennis would not then embrace him face to face because he did not want to see nor feel that it was Jack he held.
Without recalling this terrible, heartbreaking context from the story, the movie scene is all bluebirds and rainbows. Would that it were so...
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[.....]I still maintain, cute as Jakey is and all, that his performance was COMPLETELY underrated. Jake uses his physical stature and his [goofy] eyebrows and his big eyes to convey MORE by not saying anything than Heath did all bottled up and quiet, not saying anything. Jake's use of body language spoke VOLUMES about Jack's feelings, the play of emotions in each scene.
And I'll second that. What Jake doesn't say speaks volumes! His expressiveness generates my greatest reaction to his performance, and yet, sadly, as you have stated, seems to be most underrated (and underappreciated.)
IJSE, you have probably figured out by now that when it comes to backing you up regarding Jake's performance, I'm one of your biggest supporters! ;D ;D I'm definitely in your corner! :-*
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What must it be like to have love? My mother claimed to have loved me. "Claimed", but actions speak louder than words. At 49, no one has ever loved me and those that I loved didn't want to hear it. Oh well, I know that not every flower gets a chance to bloom, some just get mowed down. I have great respect for the idea of love, I take it very seriously and that alone is very isolating. For me, love could never be cheap. I put it high on a pedestal, you can probably sense my naivety. When I was young, I dreamed of finding a lover, now it just scares me. I'm afraid that actually falling in love would kill me, which is ironic, since I've thought of myself as the walking dead ever since I was 13.
OMG, RickB -- that's some serious shit going on there. I wish I had a magic wand. I have, rather, just one idea: if you have been able to look at yourself as the walking dead, it MUST mean that somewhere there is someone "in" you that knows you are NOT the walking dead. THAT someone is correct. Listen to "him," whoever that is and wherever he came from.
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Just a comment to add to the rich and useful discussion of shame, on the difference between guilt and shame. Guilt is "I've done something bad." Shame is "I AM something bad."
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I watched the second truck scene with a very critical eye tonight. I think it is IMO the hottest Jack looked anywhere in the movie. His face was so open and full of hope.
I love the way the two of them embrace one another. They are not hugging as men do but as lovers. They have to fight to keep from kissing here. You can see the electricity between them. Before they go too far, Ennis leads Jack over the the truck to meet his daughters.
Ennis is apologizing to Jack when the truck goes by. Ennis stops speaking and his eyes follow the truck. Jack turns and to see what Ennis is looking at. When he turns back to Ennis, there is a sad resignation in his eyes. Ennis then says, "Jack," but Jack interrupts him and says "All right, I'll see you next month then." He sounds more resolute than anything else.
He pulls out of the drive, and we see a shot of Ennis looking at the ground, looking so hurt and forlorn.
IMO, the scene is staged so that we will understand that Jack is fully aware why Ennis is behaving in the manner he is. I think Jack fully knows that in his heart Ennis wants Jack to stay, but that his head won't let him. Jack knows Ennis is just as hurt as he is (and we see the hurt all over Ennis' face). IMO, Jack cries on the way home, not because of Ennis, but because of the reasons for Ennis actions.
It is a beautiful scene and speaks so greatly to their love and the constant heartbreak that they both vow to stand because of it.
(And BTW, tonight I watched Ennis carefully throughout the movie. In many scenes, it is easy to focus mostly on Jack because Jack is the emotional center, and I haven't really SEEN Ennis in many of their scenes together. When they are lying in bed in the motel, and Jack says, we have to figure out what to do and Ennis says "there's nothing we can do," Ennis actually has tears in his eyes here. The next night, by the fire, when Jack asks "for how long" and Ennis replies "for as long as we can ride it...there ain't no reins on this one," Ennis is crying. This is why Jack caresses his face. We also see tears in Jack's eyes when Ennis is describing the dead man he saw as a boy. Jack's tears and his tender caress lead me to believe that Jack understands Ennis and knows Ennis wants very much the same thing Jack wants, but that he cannot do it. Those tears lead me to believe it is killing Ennis to turn down Jack's dream. However, he does commit himself to Jack for as long as they can ride it. Ennis seems to spend the entire film emotionally devastated by his love and desires for Jack.)
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It is very clear to me that there is a yin and yang to Ennis and Jack. They are Blakian characters representing innocence and experience (in the Blakian sense Jack represents innocence and Ennis represents experience). One cannot live in this world without both the little lamb and the burning tiger. Where Jack sees the innocence of their love, Ennis sees the danger. Where Jack represents hope, Ennis represents fear. But as William Blake shows us, innocence and experience are two sides of the same coin. We must have both in this life, or we will perish.
Very nice. I would also add that Lee and Proulx, like William Blake, blurred the lines between lamb and tiger. In terms of sexual experience and his insight into Ennis' nature, Jack is the tiger, while Ennis is the meek lamb.
Yes exactly! i'm so impressed (read jealous here) with Annie Proulx's writing..i hadn't read anything of hers before..she's either blurring the line between the two, or Ennis and Jack are swapping their yin/yang roles dynamically in various situations...the dynamic between them during the first scene with the sheep, preparing to go up on the mountain, is so great...Jack has already filled Ennis' ear about how he was on Brokeback last year, his trial and tribulations, how he is experienced at it.....how he's a rodeo rider, can't be thrown by any horse etc...yet for all his boasting...I loved Jack's (Jake's) posture on that horse..stiff lower back, shoulders rigid, struggling just a bit as he communicates to Ennis about hurrying up, to get going with the sheep (Ennis is tying down their life provisions..kinda important, Jack just wants to blast off to the mountain) , Jack was trying at first to set himself up as the experienced leader ...yet the posture on that horse (and later difficulty with his aim of the gun, and can opener and..) shows differently..whether Ang Lee took advantage of the skill difference between Jake G. and Heath on a horse or just choreographed it..it was charming...really shows how people could fall so easily in love with each of these two characters..Jack's undying optimism and bravado, and also Ennis' polite, sensitive, gentile low key responses that don't criticize Jack about his skills (despite each of their macho cowboy ideals)...just a bit of a tease now and then as he sees Jack struggle with all of these things.
Yet later in the film, the motel, the first reunion camping, the 2nd (divorce) truck scene, and the last argument..how the yin/yang dynamic between them established on the mountain completely changes and becomes unbalanced
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I do think Jack sincerely wanted to be with Ennis but as noted living closer wouldn't have made any difference. Ennis had set the boundaries and until he was ready to change them nothing would alter their routine. Jack made it clear he would live in a tent with nothing if he could be with his love. It IS clear, at least to me, in Ennis's last breakdown, when he says 'I honestly can't stand this anymore', that he has suffered painfully the loneliness and longing for Jack; they are on equal footing here. And he lets Jack know he misses him just as much as Jack misses Ennis - he just has a harder time saying it. And I most wholeheartedly agree that the breaking point has come - Ennis is ripe for 'fixin' it now that it can no longer be stood, though it has taken 20 years and may well take another year or two. I think he sees that something must be done, and we all know he can never give up Jack.
Both have sacrificed heavily for a love they cannot fight, cannot let go of and can't live without. I am somewhat taken aback by weak-hearted analyses which don't seem to me to understand the nature of true love. I wonder if folks who would so readily dismiss love have ever truly loved? So much is easy these days; so many are unwilling to accept hard work and sacrifice. I do not think the true-hearted ever let go of love, but fight kicking and scratching for it as long as there is breath in their body. Call me a romantic, but that's how I am. And I would expect the same of my other half.
And as for finding other loves, in a world of 6 billion, I'll tell ya this: it's a lot harder than it may seem. True love ain't around every corner and it was a damn miracle those two boys found it and they knew it. My best friend, shortly before he died, after I lamented a love lost (dumped again!), responded, "at least you've had love." He never did, and sadly, passed from this earth without ever having made that most important of all connections. So I have consoled myself the last 17 loveless years with that remembrance. I don't know what people are calling 'love' these days, but I see precious little of it, even in people who claim to be in love; the love they claim seems to have no staying power, no depth, it is a weak, convenient and vain thing; they let it go too easily and don't appreciate it if they really have it. A rare and precious commodity; at least Jack and Ennis realized it does not necessarily come again if even once into each life. Two people, damaged and imperfect as we all are, rather than finding them lacking for their all-too-obvious faults, I praise them that despite those, they held onto that love with all the strength they had (think of the fierceness of that final embrace) no matter the cost, knowing it was returned with equal fervor. And that, my friends, makes them heroes to me. And so I will think of them.
Very well said, 'buddy. It is very like this in my life right now, one of the reasons BBM has effected me so deeply I think. From the moment I saw the trailer, I knew I was in trouble emotionally; that this movie would be pivotal in my life in many ways. Now after 6 viewings - with more on the way - I know my set path and the direction I am going: I am scrabbling and scratching to fight for the love I feel and believe in. THis movie just sent home the arrow of truth just what exactly I would lose if I didn't go for it. I'm not giving up on this no matter how many times she says no or puts me off. This movie just laid my life out on the table like a map.
I wasted 20 years in a relationship that had very little reward other than four beautiful children (not that they're trivial by any means), and I refuse to look back in another 20 years and have more regrets or "what ifs" in my life. We get one time through this life. I will not give up. You are right, they are heroes.
H.
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I would also add that Lee and Proulx, like William Blake, blurred the lines between lamb and tiger. In terms of sexual experience and his insight into Ennis' nature, Jack is the tiger, while Ennis is the meek lamb.
True. And Ennis had his "guts ripped out" that first night in the tent by an act that would invigorate and vex him the rest of his life.
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If I had a more facile mind, I could probably figure this out for myself, but . . .
Our perspectives on the two alley scenes are interesting. In Ennis' alley scene, we see him from the darkness of the alley almost in silhouette, looking out into the light. In Jack's alley scene, we see Jack and the hustler walking from the lighted street into pitch blackness. Now I guess this could be another Ang Lee bookend scene. For Ennis, he's confronted with the knowledge of his feelings for Jack, and hence the light. For Jack, he's confronted with the knowledge that his dream of being with Ennis is probably never going to happen, and hence the darkness. Both scenes are painful, but the natures of the two causes of their pain is very different.
Does this resonate with anyone else, or am I just goofin here?
I'm also curious about the music that's playing as Jack and the hustler walk into the darkness. I don't know it, and I don't speak Spanish. The volume seems to increase as they walk into the darkness, so I wonder if the lyrics have any special meaning in that context.
Scot5636, the music playing when Jack goes off with the hustler is 'Perhaps, Perhaps, Perhaps' in Spanish. Pretty tantalising, huh?!
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If I had a more facile mind, I could probably figure this out for myself, but . . .
I'm also curious about the music that's playing as Jack and the hustler walk into the darkness. I don't know it, and I don't speak Spanish. The volume seems to increase as they walk into the darkness, so I wonder if the lyrics have any special meaning in that context.
Scot5636, the music playing when Jack goes off with the hustler is 'Perhaps, Perhaps, Perhaps' in Spanish. Pretty tantalising, huh?!
Oops! Just read the rest of this board and realised I'm way behind with this 'information!' Sorry
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Someone said that Ennis set the boundaries in their relationship. I think not. The repressive society in which they lived set all the boundaries and, ultimately, is the source of all the destruction visited upon everyone it touches. There is a pure symbolization of the repression when Ennis suddenly becomes pre-occupied with the truck that is driving by that stops the conversation he an Jack are having. The repression ("did whoever is driving by see us hug? What are they thinking seeing us together? etc.) draws Jack's attention, too, as he turns to see what Ennis is concerned about. He understands immediately that with the girls present and "the others" so near at hand (not like it is in the safety and tranquility at Brokeback) there is no reason to pursue the conversation further. He knows that the imprint of Ennis' childhood experience of seeing the dead rancher is a psychological barrier that even the most intense love cannot fully break down. He loves Ennis in spite of (and maybe a little because of) how bound up as he is by his internalization of the repression he has lived with all his life.
In an interview in "Gay and Lesbian Times" a paper on the West Coast (LA, I think) that a friend sent to me, Annie Proulx says of Heath's performance: "He got inside the story more deeply than I did. All that thinking about the character of Ennis that was so hard for me to get [as she was writing the short story], Ledger just was there. He did indeed move inside the skin of the character not just in the shirt but inside the person. It was remarkable." Quite a thing for the author who created the character to say. The slime of repression is in very nearly every scene of this film, though less so in the second night in the tent scene, the "do you see anything interesting up there in heaven" scene, and the motel scene.
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So true Elan and the "tire iron" is what Ms. Proulx uses to symbolize that repression. Whether or not Jack is actually killed, literally, by the tire iron,both he and Ennis were destroyed by it. This is what she means when Ennis keeps visualizing the tire iron during the phone scene, the scene with Jack's parents and the subsequent dreams when even the spoon turns into a tire iron. The repression is always there hovering over everything.
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right you are, garyd.
A straight friend on Cape Cod asked me yesterday if I thought Lureen paid to have Jack killed. It had never occured to me, but I don't think so. Her father, maybe. But after 5 viewings, I think the killing of Jack in the field scene is all in Ennis' head -- it is the way he thinks homos die when people find out about them. And, alas, sometimes it IS the way homos die. Damn repression.
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I notice how the idea that maybe jack's pa-in-law had something to do with his death is cropping up more and more. In the chapters telling us that they no longer are young men and Prioux list all the places that they visit, the fact of the pa-in-law's death is given us, ruling out any involvement with the alledged misdeed.
What a great site with so many insights into what is the most profound movie I've ever seen.
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OMG - I swear - Ang Lee, music editors and staff ARE GENUISES!
It's amazing the song that parallels EXACTLY the GD bitch of the situation.
I never much paid attention to that, but now totally floored.
What a gem this movie is.
I also wanted to add, upon my 4th viewing, how brilliant the editing was. The editor did a great job of connecting all the scenes. One thing that struck me tonight was how in the sex scene with Alma, Ennis "mounts" her, then cut to Jack mounted on bull. Draws a nice parallel.
There are also lots of cuts used to make a statement on the difference between their two lives. Look at the scenes of Ennis' hanging out in the dive of a bar, often alone, contrasted to Jack socializing with wife and another couple in a higher class, more affluent social event. I'm sure if I were to go back and view the movie again, I'd find a lot more examples of this juxtaposition between Jack and Ennis' lives.
Please comment if you've seen other examples great editing.
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Dee, good observations that I had not picked up on before. You might want to post these in the Structure of the Movie thread.
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I watched the second truck scene with a very critical eye tonight. I think it is IMO the hottest Jack looked anywhere in the movie. His face was so open and full of hope.
I love the way the two of them embrace one another. They are not hugging as men do but as lovers. They have to fight to keep from kissing here. You can see the electricity between them. Before they go too far, Ennis leads Jack over the the truck to meet his daughters.
I whole heartedly agree with you. I love that embrace, and I love the way Jack cups the back of Ennis' head. Ennis is so precious to him. And I love the way the lean in to almost kiss. Amazingly sexy.
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If I had a more facile mind, I could probably figure this out for myself, but . . .
Our perspectives on the two alley scenes are interesting. In Ennis' alley scene, we see him from the darkness of the alley almost in silhouette, looking out into the light. In Jack's alley scene, we see Jack and the hustler walking from the lighted street into pitch blackness. Now I guess this could be another Ang Lee bookend scene. For Ennis, he's confronted with the knowledge of his feelings for Jack, and hence the light. For Jack, he's confronted with the knowledge that his dream of being with Ennis is probably never going to happen, and hence the darkness. Both scenes are painful, but the natures of the two causes of their pain is very different.
Does this resonate with anyone else, or am I just goofin here?
Resonates with me! That's a brilliant analysis. I was struck this time around with how down Jack looks in Mexico and I hadn't really noticed that that scene follows Ennis's rebuff following the news of the divorce on the first viewing.
This time, he looks like he is just wanting to disappear.
And I wonder if that is also partly why Jack gets so angry with Ennis in their final scene together when Ennis accuses Jack of being unfaithful in Mexico. Jack knows that he went there at least once to cope with the pain of being rebuffed after learning of Ennis's divorce.
It's interesting to think that Ennis internalizes his pain while Jack externalizes it.
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I don't know if somebody mentioned this before but the 2nd truck scene after Jack was basically rejected by Ennis, he drives his truck backwards. For me it had a very subtile message like "back to where we started from" after he arrived full of hope only to see his dreams getting shattered again. Is it just me or did anybody else saw it that way??
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going on from bookgirls comments....had Alma never seen them that reunion day, how would things have panned out?
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If I had a more facile mind, I could probably figure this out for myself, but . . .
That should have been a LESS facile mind. Apparently, I couldn't have a more facile mind. I hate it when my old posts pop back up and I realize I've said something really bone-headed.
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So at the end of the first alley scene you start to hear the words to the Our Father before they actually cut to the scene of them in the church. Definitely a subtle way of bringing the religous factor into the struggle one has with their sexuality. Sucker punched me the first time I saw the movie.
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Me too....forgive us our trespasses indeed! Lead us not into temptation! Deliver us from evil! I don't guess it worked as Ennis ends back in the saddle with Jack!
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Thought I'd put this here too cause it's a possible reason for tha trip ta Mexico based offa Jack's pesonality.
I think they complete each other, yin/yang, not that Jack only completes Ennis.....what i see is Jack bounding ahead like a puppy, eternal optimism, always dreamin'...regardless of the consequences unfortunately...we all love him for this but it's his character flaw....and ennis completes him by bringing the other side...you have family responsibilities Ennis reminds him, etc....and vis versa for ennis' character flaw
I definitely think this thought is right. Do y'all know anything about the Riso-Hudson Enneagram Personality Type system? Jack is definitely an Enneagram 7 "the Enthusiast" They're always interested in the next fun experience they can have and are really hyper and involved in life with a very positive outlook. I'm very much like that as a person. They run toward stressful situations with enthusiasm and avoid bad feelings by substitutin another expeience for one that just hurt'em. They run to some type of substituting activity. Hence, Jack goes ta Mexico.
Personally. when I get turned down for companionship for a date, or just by a friend ta go somewhere, I say: "Damnit, I'm not gonna just sit there at home an mope, I'm goin anyway and enjoy that experience just ta spite whomever. Fuck'em!" And actually I've had some of tha best times in my life doin just that. I think he's mad at Ennis and upset and his trips ta Wyoming and Ennis are his excape from life as well as his love. That's been taken way and he's not expected home for a week an he's mad, so why tha hell not, Damnit, I'm takin my vacation, escape time in my own way. Course, he's tryin hard not ta think of Ennis and his own pain and probably is envisionin himself with Ennis tha whole time he's whorin and drinlin in Mexico.
Also, while on this topic, one aspect typical of many Enneagram 7's is that many view sex as friendship, advantageous activity or recreational activity seperate from love. Their concept of love enters into their perception when an emotional connection happens usually due ta non-sexual events of deeply self revealing converation that gets them underneath their more supeficial "Pie-in'tha-sky" attitude. Where bluebirds sing and there's a whisky spring, right? Their real emotions are deep down, covered by hyperactivity and attempts ta keep themselves busy at any cost. Many 7's actually fear relationships because it might limit tha range of things they can do in thier lives and they'll slow down and get depressed. But if a 7 leans 6 towards Loyalist, if someone breaks though that shell (one Ennis Del Mar, a deep thinkin, depressive Enneagram 4, the Individualist - Jack's exact opposite), then a really, REALLY strong bond can form btwn the both types. That's why reall shy, quiet people like sometimes like ta hang around reall silly, hyper folks ta live through them vicariously
Here's a link to the Enneagram website, take tha test and see what you are. Also, most bookstores have Enneagram books that explain tha system in depth. Lemme know what y'all think
http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/
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Just a comment to add to the rich and useful discussion of shame, on the difference between guilt and shame. Guilt is "I've done something bad." Shame is "I AM something bad."
I came out nearly three years ago to a gay friend, and he bought me a book about the process written by some Italian guy (sorry, don't recall his name).
Now, I've known who I was (though never acted on it) for 35 years prior, and I thought I'd just settle down to a good read and pick up some pointers. The book had other ideas--it had exercises. The very first was to go to a mirror, look yourself squarely in the eye and say "I am gay." Like I said, I've known for years, but could I do this one simple thing? No! Run it through my head "I'm gay. Yeah. So what's the news?" Look in the mirror and say it? NFW.
Took me two evenings and several hours of crying, going to the mirror, collapsing, starting again.... Yup. Shame.
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I can barely watch the post-divorce truck scene. Jack is just so full of joy when he arrives, only to find his hopes are crushed once again. This scene to me is the turning point in the film. Before this point their meetings are full of fun and love and Jack accepts what Ennis says about not being together. I feel that Jack always adds a silent "yet" to this. But after this scene unpleasant things crop up more and more in their trips together. It feels to me that up to this point Jack still had high hopes that they would be together, despite Ennis' protestations to the contrary. After this scene I think that the hope is still there, but it very slowly begins to fade. Until their last meeting ten years later when it is all but extinguished.
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I came out nearly three years ago to a gay friend, and he bought me a book about the process written by some Italian guy (sorry, don't recall his name).
Now, I've known who I was (though never acted on it) for 35 years prior, and I thought I'd just settle down to a good read and pick up some pointers. The book had other ideas--it had exercises. The very first was to go to a mirror, look yourself squarely in the eye and say "I am gay." Like I said, I've known for years, but could I do this one simple thing? No! Run it through my head "I'm gay. Yeah. So what's the news?" Look in the mirror and say it? NFW.
Took me two evenings and several hours of crying, going to the mirror, collapsing, starting again.... Yup. Shame.
Wow, what a stunning illustration, MellorSJ! Thanks for telling us about it.
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What a great set of posts, Cowboysnkisses. Your message makes a lot of great points and zeros in on observations others have failed to make. I think we forget that Ennis doesn't know Alma saw them kissing, so her confrontation of him post-Thanksgiving must have taken him utterly by surprise.
Prolux really wrote these two characters into a cage there was no escape from. That's what makes Brokeback Mountain such a compelling tragedy, in the great Greek tradition.
I reread the story last night and in the story, it's quite clear that he knew she saw them.
In the film it's clear he didn't know she saw them. The words in the story that indicate he thought she saw something
"Alma," he said, "Jack and me ain't seen each other in four years." As if it were a reason. He was glad the light was dim on the landing but did not turn away from her.
are removed. She closes the door quickly after seeing them kiss--while they are too thoroughly immersed and entangled in each other to notice anything else. She waits within and it is Ennis who opens the door the second time.
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What a great set of posts, Cowboysnkisses.
Thanks, sunspot.
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Cowboysnkisses,
Wow, very nice. A must read for all. Way back, I mentioned Ennis's red-faced embarrassment when Alma outs him on Thanksgiving. I could feel the shame, embarrassment and maybe even panic that one time when Ennis is forced to look at himself. Poor baby, I wish I could've been there to fix it. That's my inner Jack Twist talkin'. I'm crazy for Heath Ledger, but I think I'm in love with Ennis Del Mar, God help me.
Thanks, RickB. I have the same feeling about Ennis. One of the great mysteries of the whole story is why Jack never tried to talk Ennis through his shame and fear. He tried to get him to do things which would have helped if he could have done them. But talking might have brought him to that point. The one time Ennis displays his shame verbally, Jack seems clueless. Don't you ever feel people can look at you and tell? Jack suggests, rightly, that maybe he needs to move out of his emotionally suffocating surroundings, but he never says what Ennis needs to hear: Don't be ridiculous. No one can tell just by looking at you, of all people. If he had, they might then have gone on to talk about why Ennis felt that way and its root cause.
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I'll continue off topic for a moment with this. I think many often overlook that Jack has shame and fear as well. It is hard to talk someone through something with which one hasn't dealt themselves.
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Helen_UK -- I completely agree that this was the turning point of the movie. Jack felt that the real barrier to them being together was Ennis' marriage. In the end, that was just the visible barrier. Once Jack got to Ennis' place with all of his exultation, it would have been overpowering to realize that the one thing keeping you apart was not really as relevant as it seemed. This is where Jack seems to come to the realization that Ennis' fears about being two men together are even more powerful than imagined.
I think his tears on the drive away were as much out of sorrow for this realization as being rejected in the moment. Although Jack never really lost his romantic notions of where the relationship could go, he never really was as direct in his conversations with Ennis. The next time we see them discuss anything was when Ennis was washing the dishes in the river. Jack very subtly mentions Ennis changing venues, maybe to Texas. No mention of living together, no overt indication of an agenda. Ennis quickly picked up on this and squashed it quickly.
Then we see them in the last scene where Jack's faith was less strong and he no longer brought it up on his own.
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There are two scenes with Jack and Ennis standing at a truck waiting to drive away. The first is when the two come down off BBM and they are about to part ways. It is commonly referred to as the "Gonna do this again next summer" scene.
The other is when Jack drives 1,200 miles after Ennis and Alma divorce, and Ennis introduces Jack to his daughters and then dashes Jack's dreams of them living a life together.
This is the thread to discuss either of these scenes, either separate or together.
Sorry to change the subject ,but please someone tell me what Ennis said at the end of the movie,it is driving me mad and I loved the movie so much. :-[
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You mean with the shirts in his trailer? He says, "Jack, I swear..." Or did you mean a different scene?
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This is where Jack seems to come to the realization that Ennis' fears about being two men together are even more powerful than imagined.
Yup, and he realises this when Ennis looks nervously at the passing truck.
Although Jack never really lost his romantic notions of where the relationship could go,
I don't know if I agree here. I think by the time of their last scene together (about 10 years or so after Ennis' divorce) Jack seemed to be on the verge of being a broken man. I also get the impression that since the divorce they had been seeing a bit less of each other because of Ennis having to pay maintenance for his girls.
Then we see them in the last scene where Jack's faith was less strong and he no longer brought it up on his own.
i think his faith by this time was just about through. He didn't have much hope or faith. However, that's another scene altogether! :)
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Thanks, RickB. I have the same feeling about Ennis. One of the great mysteries of the whole story is why Jack never tried to talk Ennis through his shame and fear. He tried to get him to do things which would have helped if he could have done them. But talking might have brought him to that point. The one time Ennis displays his shame verbally, Jack seems clueless. Don't you ever feel people can look at you and tell? Jack suggests, rightly, that maybe he needs to move out of his emotionally suffocating surroundings, but he never says what Ennis needs to hear: Don't be ridiculous. No one can tell just by looking at you, of all people. If he had, they might then have gone on to talk about why Ennis felt that way and its root cause.
Well...you know...I think we all give Jack a little more credit than is due here. I think he is really motivated by love and I'm not sure he has the capability to talk him through his shame and fear. Jack seems caught up in a lot of anger/frustration - think of the scene where he is talking to Lureen about Bobby - he says 'I've complained too much, his teacher don't like me'. I don't think he is far enough along himself to talk Ennis out of his delusion. Think back to the rodeo clown scene - he reacts to the bartender (who is only being friendly) with anger.
And...as a total non sequitur, but linking it back to the trucks, I think if Dolly Parton's version of 'I Will Alway Love You' came on that radio as Jack was driving away (after the 'divorce' scene) he would have driven off the road....
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I can barely watch the post-divorce truck scene. Jack is just so full of joy when he arrives, only to find his hopes are crushed once again. This scene to me is the turning point in the film. Before this point their meetings are full of fun and love and Jack accepts what Ennis says about not being together. I feel that Jack always adds a silent "yet" to this. But after this scene unpleasant things crop up more and more in their trips together. It feels to me that up to this point Jack still had high hopes that they would be together, despite Ennis' protestations to the contrary. After this scene I think that the hope is still there, but it very slowly begins to fade. Until their last meeting ten years later when it is all but extinguished.
I agree whole-heartedly. And I think it really comes through in the last scene that they're together. Jack asks Ennis, "All this time and you ain't found nobody to marry?" That seems to indicate to me that he's given up on the idea of he and Ennis ever living together. Ennis might as well still be married for how often they see each other.
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I can barely watch the post-divorce truck scene. Jack is just so full of joy when he arrives, only to find his hopes are crushed once again. This scene to me is the turning point in the film. Before this point their meetings are full of fun and love and Jack accepts what Ennis says about not being together. I feel that Jack always adds a silent "yet" to this. But after this scene unpleasant things crop up more and more in their trips together. It feels to me that up to this point Jack still had high hopes that they would be together, despite Ennis' protestations to the contrary. After this scene I think that the hope is still there, but it very slowly begins to fade. Until their last meeting ten years later when it is all but extinguished.
Yes. Yes. Yes.
The movie to me, up to this point, has been the slow, steady climb up the first hill of a rollercoaster. It is quiet, you only hear the sounds of the wind and the slow clink of the chain. It seems like nothing is happening but that is only because you cannot yet see what is waiting for you.
We reach the top of the hill and begin the freefall when Jack slams his truck into reverse and roars backwards, looking at him, away from Ennis. We are now up out of our seats as the plummet continues into Mexico and the cataclysmic events are set, irreversibly, into motion.
It is a gut-punch of a scene and the look of deflation on Jack's face is unbearable.
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I really liked tha juxtaposition of these two scenes.
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???
I have seen this movie several times now, and I still don't have the insight that I have read from these posts...I guess I need to go to film interpretation school or something... :(
Anyway...the scene after Jack drives off and Enniss looks like he is going to be sick. What was happening here? Was he throwing up b/c of what had happened (involved with Jack) or b/c Jack left on such an awkward note? Punching the wall...obviously angry about the relationship (ending or doing it?) crying...missing Jack, not sure of his feelings...
some help on this one...
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???
I have seen this movie several times now, and I still don't have the insight that I have read from these posts...I guess I need to go to film interpretation school or something... :(
Anyway...the scene after Jack drives off and Enniss looks like he is going to be sick. What was happening here? Was he throwing up b/c of what had happened (involved with Jack) or b/c Jack left on such an awkward note? Punching the wall...obviously angry about the relationship (ending or doing it?) crying...missing Jack, not sure of his feelings...
some help on this one...
The book helps some here. Ennis is sick to his stomach because he is leaving Jack behind. He doesn't understand it until a year later when he says that he should never have let Jack out of his sight.
At the time, though, this is an externalization of the inner turmoil that parting created and Ennis was not in touch enough to understand what was happening to him. When I saw the film before reading the story, I wondered the same thing you did. But my husband immediately saw what was happening. He said to me: "Ennis had nothing coming off that mountain. Barely any money, was on his way to marry a woman, had no family to comfort him... he was leaving the only real love and home he had ever had."
The problem was, of course, that he couldn't let those feelings become thoughts so instead, his body had to literally vomit up his emotions to get his attention.
What an amazing piece of acting that scene is!
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At the time, though, this is an externalization of the inner turmoil that parting created and Ennis was not in touch enough to understand what was happening to him. When I saw the film before reading the story, I wondered the same thing you did. But my husband immediately saw what was happening. He said to me: "Ennis had nothing coming off that mountain. Barely any money, was on his way to marry a woman, had no family to comfort him... he was leaving the only real love and home he had ever had."
The problem was, of course, that he couldn't let those feelings become thoughts so instead, his body had to literally vomit up his emotions to get his attention.
What an amazing piece of acting that scene is!
Agreed, and your husband is a smart man! My only complaint about this scene is that it would not be possible to punch a stone abutment that hard twice without breaking knuckles, fingers, etc.
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To me it seemed that, at Thanksgiving dinner, Alma obviously still loved Ennis..his little story about his brief bronc-busting career softened her face (was that a hint of a smile?)...and the loss and pain of the end of the marriage she felt then exploded with the accusation about the fishing trips....the Jack Nasty comment...as if saying, what the hell were you doing when you had us 3 at home?
phmale, I hope you won't mind me tagging on here. I normally don't repost, but I just posted this over in the 'other tragedies: Alma and Lureen' segment. Another poster was asking about Alma's reaction and why it happened when it did. I think my response dovetails nicely with your above comments. So forgive the repost if you read the other one, please:
I think Alma was having an existential crisis (if you will) concerning the gender of her ex-husband's lover. She never resolved it or understood it internally - had no place to put it. I've talked in the other forums about how Jack couldn't help Ennis and how Ennis couldn't imagine a world with Jack without the threat of violence, but I think we tend to forget that Alma was hampered by the lack of vision that living in rural America with limited education. In the book it says:
"Under her breath she said, 'I'd have em if you'd support em.' And under that, thought, anyway, what you like to do don't make too many babies."
This is the man that she sent up to Brokeback (a virgin, according to all we know) with plans to marry in the winter. He came back irrevocably changed - although even he didn't understand this. In the book he says (in the motel room):
"'That summer,' said Ennis, 'When we split up after we got paid out I had gut cramps so bad I pulled over and tried to puke, thought I ate somethin bad at that place in Dubois. Took me about a year a figure out it was that I shouldn't a let you out a my sights. Too late then by a long, long while.'"
Ennis has had Jack to talk to about all of this over the years. Alma has had no one. She's 4 months pregnant when she confronts Ennis - and is probably angry enough to eat glass, because he is still a hero in the eyes of his daughters. My guess is that Alma didn't plan to do this - she just explodes (this is 1977 - 2 years after the divorce and 10 years after she has found out about Jack and Ennis). She's settled down with Monroe (and she clearly is the alpha male in that relationship) and just cannot resolve this. The divorce is granted in November 1975 - I would suppose that in 1976 they did not get together for Thanksgiving. This is probably an attempt at a reunion before Alma has the new baby - a try at 'blending' the families. And it goes oh so wrong.
I don't know if any of your families had a tradition of big blow out fights at holidays - but I know mine did. And we had some doozies (I am the last of 9 children). I see this as a combination of 'holiday frustration' (Alma had probably cooked everything only to have her daughters just glow at Ennis when he walks in) and being at the end of her rope.
For Alma this is the moment that is as much of a crisis as Jack's moment when he comes up after the divorce or Ennis' moment when he realizes on that last meeting that he might be losing Jack (which is where the 'It's because of you I'm like this' - a speech which truly hurts when I hear it - comes from).
And there we are - I'm back at Ennis and Jack even though we're talking about Alma. Is it any wonder she blew up? I'm just glad she wasn't washing a knife at the time....
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@alma
thanks for the clarification...
that helps a lot! ;D
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The book helps some here. Ennis is sick to his stomach because he is leaving Jack behind. He doesn't understand it until a year later when he says that he should never have let Jack out of his sight.
But my husband immediately saw what was happening. He said to me: "Ennis had nothing coming off that mountain. Barely any money, was on his way to marry a woman, had no family to comfort him... he was leaving the only real love and home he had ever had."
what a wise & wonderful husband you must have ;)
I felt that too & once I read the book it was confirmed. He is angry for letting Jack go and while some may interpret what happened as his repulsion by what happened on the mountain, quite the contrary. It was the only love & home he had ever really known. He could hardly stand it, their parting. You also get some of this just before they leave the mountain. Ennis is really upset their time has been cut short, and even though he complains about the pay, Ennis shows how frustrated he is and some hostility that it is coming to an end.
Heath does a fab job in every scene, I swear :-*
Also thanks to those that shared the 'Perhaps' song in Spanish. I didn't catch it at all but knew it sounded familiar,
but of course its the theme song for Coupling, which I have seen many times. WOW.
I am still floored as to how rich this movie is!
More goodies to look for again on Sunday for #9 view.
Can't Quit this One :-*
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Anyway...the scene after Jack drives off and Enniss looks like he is going to be sick. What was happening here? Was he throwing up b/c of what had happened (involved with Jack) or b/c Jack left on such an awkward note? Punching the wall...obviously angry about the relationship (ending or doing it?) crying...missing Jack, not sure of his feelings...
some help on this one...
Ennis is tha type a man who is repressed and not in touch with his emotions. He feels things physically, not emotionlly. I do that too. He wasn't prepared for what would happen when Jack drove away at the end of the summer. When I am deeply affected emotionally, I have this wierd mind out of body feeling, like I'm a slow passive observer and then, I'll feel like I'm gonna throw up, or notice there's a tear running down my face and then freak and need to get somewhere by myself. I think that's a part of what emotional repression is. I often don't understand what tha emtion is about until long after it's over. That scene of Ennis in the alley after Jack has driven off is so close to a reaction I might have that when I saw the movie a second time, I couldn't watch it because it hit too close to home. This happened ta Ennis when jack drove away and he got off by himself. When the guy asked him if he was alight, he reacted in the only emotion he's in touch with - anger.
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One thing that I noticed when I saw it again tonight was what was playing on Jack's radio as he was driving into Ennis's driveway and when he went out. On the way in, I can't remember the exact wording, but it was a broadcaster saying something about "real exciting".....(if someone with the DVD could verify).....and on the way out, the broadcaster is saying something about it being "real cold, down in the 30's". Sounds like it's describing Jack's feelings. I think the minute details are absolutely amazing.
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I can barely watch the post-divorce truck scene. Jack is just so full of joy when he arrives, only to find his hopes are crushed once again. This scene to me is the turning point in the film. Before this point their meetings are full of fun and love and Jack accepts what Ennis says about not being together. I feel that Jack always adds a silent "yet" to this. But after this scene unpleasant things crop up more and more in their trips together. It feels to me that up to this point Jack still had high hopes that they would be together, despite Ennis' protestations to the contrary. After this scene I think that the hope is still there, but it very slowly begins to fade. Until their last meeting ten years later when it is all but extinguished.
Yes. Yes. Yes.
The movie to me, up to this point, has been the slow, steady climb up the first hill of a rollercoaster. It is quiet, you only hear the sounds of the wind and the slow clink of the chain. It seems like nothing is happening but that is only because you cannot yet see what is waiting for you.
We reach the top of the hill and begin the freefall when Jack slams his truck into reverse and roars backwards, looking at him, away from Ennis. We are now up out of our seats as the plummet continues into Mexico and the cataclysmic events are set, irreversibly, into motion.
It is a gut-punch of a scene and the look of deflation on Jack's face is unbearable.
I went to see the film again last night with your postings in mind.
Along with the 'gut-punch' as you so well put it, the look of absolute miserable sadness on Jack's face as he pick's up Prieto's character in Juarez sticks in your heart like a knife. Married to the sadness on his face there is the look of absolute wretchedness on Ennis' face as he throws the truck into reverse and leaves him.
What is so interesting about this scene is that one could easily see how Jack could have said 'Oh...you have your daughters this weekend...well, I'll just go up to my parents and swing back next week' and then the whole encounter could have been cast a different way. But he is not only so taken aback and crestfallen by having misread Ennis' message to him about the divorce (which in the book comes by phone as opposed to by card in the movie - I actually think it works better by card) but he is starting to see that Ennis does not communicate with him with the hope/possibility of there getting together ever in his mind. It's not so much that Ennis is trying or wants to thwart Jack's hopes. It's more like it never even occurs to him that by sending him a message saying the divorce is final that he will send Jack's heart soaring and Jack will come. So not only does the scene leave Jack crestfallen at having totally misread Ennis - it also leaves Ennis feeling like a total ass for having (unintentionally) mislead Jack and then seeing how bereft at the loss of hope Jack becomes.
On earlier viewings of the film I had thought: 'Oh, well at least Ennis introduces Jack to his daughters (in the truck) - maybe this could have been a step towards acknowledgement', but the way the I see the scene now is that immediately after Jack hugs Ennis (and Ennis watches the truck drive by) he takes Jack over to introduce them as if to say 'nothing can happen now - my daughters are here'.
And I've been here, friends. Gotten the wrong signal from a potential lover - driven miles and been left with ashes in my mouth (so to speak....)
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But Mr. Wrong, I don't think I've seen anyone characterize Ennis as a "hero." That's the whole point of the film. Neither of these men are heroes. They are both honorable and cowardly, fundamentally decent and and yet deeply flawed. They're far too complex to be ennobled as a heroe, or alternatively derided as an "anti-hero."
I'm a quintessential Jack, but I think both are decent, caring men who struggle to give meaning to their lives--and struggle to cope with an adverse world and their own inner failings.
And part of the genius of the film for me is that I sympathize and understand the character of Ennis Del Mar, even though I think his tale serves as a cautionary lesson of what happens when you allow fear, instead of the conscience of your heart, to guide your life. He finally gets this in the end--but at what cost? The love of his life.
I still say that the "anti-hero" of this film is Society. A society that would inculcate a little boy with such hateful, soul-destroying images that it would cause him to hate himself so deeply that he cannot commit or express the only true love he's ever known.
Hear, hear....
Ditto from me, very eloquently stated.
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One thing that make me confused and 'upset' is
why is Monroe just sitting in the living room when his wife is arguing with another man in the kitchen, he seems to not care about it >:(
Ennis was defending his family at that 4. july party - but he (Monroe) isn't it in his own home >:(
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One thing that make me confused and 'upset' is
why is Monroe just sitting in the living room when his wife is arguing with another man in the kitchen, he seems to not care about it >:(
Ennis was defending his family at that 4. july party - but he (Monroe) isn't it in his own home >:(
If think Monroe knew that if he let Alma handle it, the likelihood that Ennis would never come back was much higher than if he had gone in and told Ennis to get out and then Ennis might have thought "who are you, little condiment boy, to come between me and my daughters." With Alma telling him to get out, the effect on Ennis was more profound, and long lasting (note he goes out and gets himself beat up).
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Been mulling this over in my head over the past few days. In the kitchen at Thanksgiving, when Alma confronts Ennis about Jack Nasty, and Ennis says to her you don't know nothin' about it, I think we have one of the truly revelatory moments in BBM that conveys that Ennis knows that with Jack he has something special that does not deserve to be denigrated or devalued. As soon as Alma brings up Jack's name, Ennis' face takes us back to Brokeback Mountain. Maybe he's not ready to call it true love, but he does know that what he had with Alma wasn't true love. He knows that Alma don't know nothin' about love between two men and certainly nothing about love between two souls. One look at Alma at the table and you can tell that she's not a bit happy. And it's not just that Ennis is there (after all, somebody invited him to come to dinner). There's something more. She's pregnant again...Monroe can support his kid (and his stepkids) one assumes. Alma's married security. It is a different kind of marriage of convenience, not devoid of love (clearly Monroe loves her) but certainly not the soul to soul love that Ennis and Jack have. No wonder Alma's mad ... she's stuck in her life, too....without the benefit of what she knows (from having witnessed, years before, one passionate kiss like Ennis never gave to her) is an emotional connection that she has never had. In the scene, Ennis is not just mad that Alma is "calling him out" -- forcing him to acknowledge that Jack is more than a "fishin' buddy" -- he's not mad that Alma has just called Jack "Jack Nasty" -- he's mad he's not with the one who gives him real love, the one with whom he feels safe, that he's "stuck" in his life. He aches for the intimacy that he only has with Jack and Alma's confrontation unleashes the rage he feels about all the reasons why, psychologically and geographically, he cannot allow himself to have it except on Brokeback Mountain.
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Been mulling this over in my head over the past few days. In the kitchen at Thanksgiving, when Alma confronts Ennis about Jack Nasty, and Ennis says to her you don't know nothin' about it, I think we have one of the truly revelatory moments in BBM that conveys that Ennis knows that with Jack he has something special that does not deserve to be denigrated or devalued. As soon as Alma brings up Jack's name, Ennis' face takes us back to Brokeback Mountain. Maybe he's not ready to call it true love, but he does know that what he had with Alma wasn't true love. He knows that Alma don't know nothin' about love between two men and certainly nothing about love between two souls. One look at Alma at the table and you can tell that she's not a bit happy. And it's not just that Ennis is there (after all, somebody invited him to come to dinner). There's something more. She's pregnant again...Monroe can support his kid (and his stepkids) one assumes. Alma's married security. It is a different kind of marriage of convenience, not devoid of love (clearly Monroe loves her) but certainly not the soul to soul love that Ennis and Jack have. No wonder Alma's mad ... she's stuck in her life, too....without the benefit of what she knows (from having witnessed, years before, one passionate kiss like Ennis never gave to her) is an emotional connection that she has never had. In the scene, Ennis is not just mad that Alma is "calling him out" -- forcing him to acknowledge that Jack is more than a "fishin' buddy" -- he's not mad that Alma has just called Jack "Jack Nasty" -- he's mad he's not with the one who gives him real love, the one with whom he feels safe, that he's "stuck" in his life. He aches for the intimacy that he only has with Jack and Alma's confrontation unleashes the rage he feels about all the reasons why, psychologically and geographically, he cannot allow himself to have it except on Brokeback Mountain.
I'll buy this reading up to a point, but it does tend to let Ennis off the hook a bit too much. If he really did believe that what he had with Jack was so pure, and he was angered by Alma's ignorant denigrating of it, then I don't understand why his reaction seems to be such obvious deep shame--and a feverish need to assert his manhood by getting into that totally unprovked fight outside the bar. No, Ennis's reaction here is complicated--he *does* believe that what he has with Jack is special (he's certainly not about to give it up) but he also believes it's shameful, especially if others find out (and even seems at times to blame Jack for his confused feelings). He's trapped between these treacherous emotional shoals throughout the entire movie.
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What cythera4 said. That's the tragegy in a nitshell. The trap between his love and shame.
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Having seen the movie again this evening, the scene quoted above spoke to me especially this time around. I believe that it is here that we see the very first demonstration of E's life long fear of being found out. All that Alma says about the note in the fishing case etc is not in itself enough to suspect E of having an affair with J. It could have been a cover up for all manner of things. No, E has picked up in Alma's voice her suspision based on fact which untill this point, E has had no idea of. Alma could no way have delivered this tirade if she had not seen what she did. Notice how E's body builds up a crescendo of shaking as Alma says her piece so that by the time she says, ''Jack Twist, Jack nasty. You and him_'' He's out of control and before she can go on, he reacts in the only way he knows how. A truly devastating scene!!
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I also took Ennis' reaction to Alma calling Jack"Jack Nasty" as not just a reaction to being himself labeled,but as a response to Alma degrading of Jack and the love that they share. Makes you think of his reaction to the bikers at the fireworks who were saying degrading things in front of Alma. This scene could also be compaired to the Jack and Agguire scene , Jack's reaction to someone making degrading remarks about his love for Ennis .
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I'm not buying that Ennis is shame-filled. Look at the "see anything interesting up in heaven" scene and you will see Ennis as relaxed with Jack as any human being can be with another human being. No, not shame. Fear. The imprinting of the scene he was made to witness when he was 9 years old, the repressive, homophobic rural culture he knows so well, has him paralyzed with fear whenever he thinks about more-than-a-Brokeback relationship with Jack. He is terrified of reactions, of what will happen to him and to Jack. He is society's child. This point is made over and over. His anger is misplaced after he leaves Monroe and Alma's house -- he would never hit Alma so he lashes out at the first person to cross him. The situation didn't matter, him stepping in front of the truck and the driver yelling at him, Ennis was a power keg ready to explode. Even when he and Jack have words up on Brokeback, we get that lovely scene of them spooning in bed in the tent. Ennis is safe on Brokeback. He doesn't have to be afraid. In him, IMHO, the fear trumps any shame he may feel, which I think the movie tells us is not as great as some posters seem to believe.
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Well...you know...I think we all give Jack a little more credit than is due here. I think he is really motivated by love and I'm not sure he has the capability to talk him through his shame and fear. Jack seems caught up in a lot of anger/frustration - think of the scene where he is talking to Lureen about Bobby - he says 'I've complained too much, his teacher don't like me'. I don't think he is far enough along himself to talk Ennis out of his delusion. Think back to the rodeo clown scene - he reacts to the bartender (who is only being friendly) with anger.
I'm afraid I can't I agree with this, Michael. In fact, I think the problem may be that Jack doesn't display anger enough when it comes to Ennis. He complains, yes, but he never really challenges, engages or stands up to Ennis on the important issues. (Think of the second to last meeting when Ennis asks Jack about other people's suspicions. Jack makes a suggestion which Ennis derides and Jack recoils rather than delving into it further--to say nothing of pushing it to the point of anger if necessary.) He only seems to do so forcefully and to the point of anger in the last meeting with Ennis. And then it does have effect--but all too late, as it turns out. I see this as a general problem for Jack. He does not stand up to strong male figures until his emotions boil over. He may rationalize his inaction or do it out of a genuine concern or desire to please. However, it sometimes does him and the other man nothing but harm.
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Wow, people hate the En-man. I keep seeing that whenever I open a thread, and there's a bunch of people railing against him. I've never felt anything but compassion for him. I can't believe anyone thinks he's faking his fear. Maybe I don't judge him because I've been there. When I was closeted I was so afraid of the world I became agoraphobic. I totally relate to him when he talks about worrying everyone "knows". I was actually so paranoid I worried everyone knew, so I avoided public spaces, I was agoraphobic for many years.
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I couldn't agree more. I think the script writers must have researched the first time experiences of gay men because Ennis' dialogue seems to have been written word for word what most people (that I've spoken with) have felt.
There is definitely a feeling of "everyone knows" and this couldn't have been expressed more succinctly.
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I'm not buying that Ennis is shame-filled. Look at the "see anything interesting up in heaven" scene and you will see Ennis as relaxed with Jack as any human being can be with another human being. No, not shame. Fear. The imprinting of the scene he was made to witness when he was 9 years old, the repressive, homophobic rural culture he knows so well, has him paralyzed with fear whenever he thinks about more-than-a-Brokeback relationship with Jack. He is terrified of reactions, of what will happen to him and to Jack. He is society's child. This point is made over and over. His anger is misplaced after he leaves Monroe and Alma's house -- he would never hit Alma so he lashes out at the first person to cross him. The situation didn't matter, him stepping in front of the truck and the driver yelling at him, Ennis was a power keg ready to explode. Even when he and Jack have words up on Brokeback, we get that lovely scene of them spooning in bed in the tent. Ennis is safe on Brokeback. He doesn't have to be afraid. In him, IMHO, the fear trumps any shame he may feel, which I think the movie tells us is not as great as some posters seem to believe.
Shame is a relative thing. At first it may be so great that you even want to hide the truth from yourself and try to do so by self-deception. If that boundary is passed, it may then be everyone else you want to hide the truth from. Later someone may earn your trust enough to be allowed to see what you still feel shame about before the eyes of others. (When Jack enters this trusted circle, Ennis does not feel shame before him. But that does not mean his shame has ended. Far from it.) It is not fear alone but an underlying shame that motivates you to hide the truth even when there is no good reason to think danger threatens. Ennis' behavior in the truck scene after the divorce (when Ennis seems irrationally worried about a passing truck in the distance while talking to Jack) and his paranoia about other people in town knowing about him just by looking (which he expresses to Jack during their second to last meeting) both illustrate this very dramatically. In the Thanksigiving scene after leaving Alma's, he starts a fight out of anger, but appears to give up in the middle, not resisting as he is pummelled on the ground. It's almost as if he's given up because he thinks he deserves a beating. We've never known him to give up before. Feeling he doesn't deserve to be saved and only deserves a beating is part of feeling shame over what Alma has just made visible to the eyes of others beyond the trusted circle.
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In the truck rejection scene I was like "There's got to be a way around this! Don't leave Jack!" Like someone said above, he could have visited with a folks until the girls left. First I was like just let him stay in the living room or something and whatever you do don't fuck each other. Of course once the girls told mom that Jack stayed with them Alma would have likely gotten his visitation rescinded and announced to the county that Ennis was a big ol' homo so the parent visit would have been best but Jack is so crestfallen he doesn't even consider that he heads strait into the embrace of a prostitute.
Also, I kind of think that Jack knew in the back of his mind tht all was not right since he had no luggage it looked like and he hadn't let his wife know he was leaving her. He made the drive because hope springs eternal but there was a part in his mind that knew this was not going to go down like he wanted.
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Wow, people hate the En-man. I keep seeing that whenever I open a thread, and there's a bunch of people railing against him. I've never felt anything but compassion for him. I can't believe anyone thinks he's faking his fear. Maybe I don't judge him because I've been there. When I was closeted I was so afraid of the world I became agoraphobic. I totally relate to him when he talks about worrying everyone "knows". I was actually so paranoid I worried everyone knew, so I avoided public spaces, I was agoraphobic for many years.
I'm not sure what you're referring to here, so I'll reply as if it's a response to what I've said. Don't count me among those you call Ennis haters. I have the greatest compassion for Ennis. He is struggling, in an earlier time and worse circumstances, with the same harrowing problems most gay boys and men still have to deal with. Nor am I saying he's faking fear. Rather I'm saying that much of his fear is born of shame and is sometimes irrational to the point of paranoia (and you seem to agree). That Ennis of all people--as macho as he is--has any basis to worry that people can tell about him is just crazy. But such craziness is part of the way shame--in particular gay shame--can work. Nor am I blaming Ennis for feeling such shame. It is, as you suggest, a common feature of being gay in a homophobic society. The lucky ones among us eventually--sometimes after years of effort--work our way through it to a large degree. Ennis, I think, only begins to very gradually after Jack's death. One of the tragic aspects of the story is that more time with Jack might have accelerated the process.
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In the truck rejection scene I was like "There's got to be a way around this! Don't leave Jack!" Like someone said above, he could have visited with a folks until the girls left. First I was like just let him stay in the living room or something and whatever you do don't fuck each other. Of course once the girls told mom that Jack stayed with them Alma would have likely gotten his visitation rescinded and announced to the county that Ennis was a big ol' homo so the parent visit would have been best but Jack is so crestfallen he doesn't even consider that he heads strait into the embrace of a prostitute.
Also, I kind of think that Jack knew in the back of his mind tht all was not right since he had no luggage it looked like and he hadn't let his wife know he was leaving her. He made the drive because hope springs eternal but there was a part in his mind that knew this was not going to go down like he wanted.
Yes, it's heartbreaking that they didn't arrange something. Jack could have visited his folks until Ennis brought the girls back to Alma. He could have camped out in the wild and waited for Ennis. There are so many possibiliities. The fact that no alternative occurred to Ennis suggests that he was just too paranoid to be thinking clearly. Jack could have suggested something too. But he was too hurt at being turned away by the lover he thought had summoned him to fulfil his fantasy--too hurt to do anything but go off and tend his wounded heart.
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Ennis's paranoid comments about people "watching" him as if they "knew" make it absolutely clear that he is not only afraid but filled with shame. I just don't see how any other reading makes sense.
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I couldn't agree more. I think the script writers must have researched the first time experiences of gay men because Ennis' dialogue seems to have been written word for word what most people (that I've spoken with) have felt.
There is definitely a feeling of "everyone knows" and this couldn't have been expressed more succinctly.
The amazing thing is, the writers claim they did no research. I saw Ossana and McMurtry here in Los Angeles last week, and someone asked them this very question - how did you know these things?
Either they were already aware of these issues from items they'd read and seen elsewhere, or they're incredibly insightful.
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Jack could have suggested something too. But he was too hurt at being turned away by the lover he thought had summoned him to fulfil his fantasy--too hurt to do anything but go off and tend his wounded heart.
Jack wasn't just hurt by being turned away. Watch Gyllenhaal's performance. He sees Ennis freak out as the truck drives by - that's when and why he gives up and leaves. You can see it in his face. Ennis is obviously petrified at the thought of anybody finding out about him and Jack, and when Jack recognizes this, he realizes this isn't a fight he can win. This is why he's so destitute upon leaving Ennis. It's not that Ennis has rejected him – it's that Ennis cannot accept him. This is what makes it so, so unfair.
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Spot on Sunspot! :)
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[...]Jack doesn't display anger enough when it comes to Ennis. He complains, yes, but he never really challenges, engages or stands up to Ennis on the important issues. (Think of the second to last meeting when Ennis asks Jack about other people's suspicions. Jack makes a suggestion which Ennis derides and Jack recoils rather than delving into it further--to say nothing of pushing it to the point of anger if necessary.) He only seems to do so forcefully and to the point of anger in the last meeting with Ennis. And then it does have effect--but all too late, as it turns out. I see this as a general problem for Jack. He does not stand up to strong male figures until his emotions boil over. He may rationalize his inaction or do it out of a genuine concern or desire to please. However, it sometimes does him and the other man nothing but harm.
That seems right. Jack always backs away, because he "knows" he can't win. Jack's Dad made sure Jack knew that long ago, and he never forgot the lesson. So he simmers under the surface for years, till Thanksgiving dinner or the last scene with Ennis.
Dal
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Jack wasn't just hurt by being turned away. Watch Gyllenhaal's performance. He sees Ennis freak out as the truck drives by - that's when and why he gives up and leaves. You can see it in his face. Ennis is obviously petrified at the thought of anybody finding out about him and Jack, and when Jack recognizes this, he realizes this isn't a fight he can win. This is why he's so destitute upon leaving Ennis. It's not that Ennis has rejected him – it's that Ennis cannot accept him. This is what makes it so, so unfair.
Thank you for wording it that way.
I've been loathe to keep calling what Ennis does "rejection" of Jack. It isn't. It's a total inability to accept what Jack is offering him. That is indeed worse than any rejection.
omg. this so parallels my life more and more.
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I agree that Ennis reaction in the alley is an expression of his grief over separating from Jack and having to face the possiblity (and at this point it is a probability) of never seeing him again. He is overcome with the depression of returning to a life which is unfulfilling and now he knows why.
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I saw this with my boyfriend yesterday. He said that as a straight guy, especially from when he was younger, knew how Ennis felt, unable to express extremes of emotions verbally and instead reacting physically.
He saw this in the punch that Ennis gave Jack when they had to leave the mountain. He felt the whole film was, in part, a statement about maleness and how hard it sometimes was to be a man.
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Absolutely.
Ennis admits that he rarely speaks and only starts talking to Jack after having had a few drinks. Possibly because he lacked the education and parenting that he needed to teach him how to express himself, or possibly because he just doesn't feel comfortable dealing with his emotions.
Your boyfriend's comments are very observant. He deserves a cookie.
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Well...you know...I think we all give Jack a little more credit than is due here. I think he is really motivated by love and I'm not sure he has the capability to talk him through his shame and fear. Jack seems caught up in a lot of anger/frustration - think of the scene where he is talking to Lureen about Bobby - he says 'I've complained too much, his teacher don't like me'. I don't think he is far enough along himself to talk Ennis out of his delusion. Think back to the rodeo clown scene - he reacts to the bartender (who is only being friendly) with anger.
I'm afraid I can't I agree with this, Michael. In fact, I think the problem may be that Jack doesn't display anger enough when it comes to Ennis. He complains, yes, but he never really challenges, engages or stands up to Ennis on the important issues. (Think of the second to last meeting when Ennis asks Jack about other people's suspicions. Jack makes a suggestion which Ennis derides and Jack recoils rather than delving into it further--to say nothing of pushing it to the point of anger if necessary.) He only seems to do so forcefully and to the point of anger in the last meeting with Ennis. And then it does have effect--but all too late, as it turns out. I see this as a general problem for Jack. He does not stand up to strong male figures until his emotions boil over. He may rationalize his inaction or do it out of a genuine concern or desire to please. However, it sometimes does him and the other man nothing but harm.
Hey Cowboy,
I don't really think we disagree here - we're saying the same things in different ways. I probably should have just said that Jack has a problem with anger as opposed to saying he was 'caught up' in anger. What my point was is that Jack isn't really far enough along himself to be helping Ennis through his emotional baggage. If you'll note, the anger I point to is at really ineffectual targets - a bartender and a teacher. You're absolutely right when you say that Jack does not stand up to strong male figures. And I agree that it does both him and Ennis harm (albeit unintentionally). But again, these emotional problems show that it is unlikely that Jack would have been able to talk Ennis through his problems - he had enough of his own. They are both entangled and encumbered with histories that make working things through problematic at best. I think of the scene immediately after the 'got your message about the divorce' as being a good example of this - Jack clearly is feeling, not thinking - or perhaps he would have just gotten a hotel room the next town over and waited for Ennis' daughters to go back to Alma after the weekend. Thanks for your (as always) thoughtful response, though.
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Thanks for articulating this more.
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ok, been lurking around this whole site trying desperately to stay off and wean myself off these two..
but.. had to comment on the contrast of the Thanksgiving scenes. For me, Alma's explosion was long overdue but keeping within her character. Remember, she and Ennis were already engaged to be married. I think her disgust at the table was really just boiling over anger not from just Jack and Ennis but that she clearly was still in love with her man. His gentle teasing of his girls further infuriated her since she clearly knew that gentle side of Ennis. I imagine that their relationship was certainly not passionate but that Ennis was gentle and caring and was prepared to take on the role of "the man" as she was the wife. It's what they knew. Ennis didn't say much but was gentle even if we didn't see much of it. The ice cream thing with the girls, the "only if I don't have to sing", his teasing with Jack.. etc. I think Alma uses Jack Nasty as any woman in betrayed relationship would use "that bitch or that piece of trash".
In contrast, Jack was already in love with Ennis when he married Lureen. Her clear distaste for Daddy was evident but hopelessly locked in so she did the next best thing to rebel... married Jack. He was everything that Daddy wasn't.... gentle, handsome, sexy (that car scene was terrific) and interested in their son. I think the bubbling over at Thanksgiving wasn't so much of Jack "acting like a man" (please, he is all man) but Lureen's expression read more to me like a continued act of rebellion and then a stern look to the kid like "you better listen to your Daddy". I think Lureen and Jack would have had a better marriage if it hadn't been for Daddy. I get the impression he controlled everything but Jack.
Thoughts??
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In contrast, Jack was already in love with Ennis when he married Lureen. Her clear distaste for Daddy was evident but hopelessly locked in so she did the next best thing to rebel... married Jack. He was everything that Daddy wasn't.... gentle, handsome, sexy (that car scene was terrific) and interested in their son. I think the bubbling over at Thanksgiving wasn't so much of Jack "acting like a man" (please, he is all man) but Lureen's expression read more to me like a continued act of rebellion and then a stern look to the kid like "you better listen to your Daddy". I think Lureen and Jack would have had a better marriage if it hadn't been for Daddy. I get the impression he controlled everything but Jack.
Not sure I agree with this. I seems to me that Lureen is pleased when Jack finally stands up to her father, but I think Jack himself is repelled that this is what is expected of "a man." He looks positively disgusted with the entire scene and with himself for being forced to act that way. As for their marriage, it's fairly clear Jack has a pretty low opinion of it: he's willing to be bought off by his father-in-law to abanson his wife and son to be with Ennis, and later he tells Ennis that he and Lureen could conduct their marriage "over the phone." There's no question but that, at home, Jack's status as "a man"--at least from Texas standards--is in question: his wife runs the business and his father-in-law pushes him around (until he stands up to him after, what, ten years?). The script directions make this all pretty evident.
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wow, nice slam there at the end about "evident". The beauty of these boards is that it is supposed to be about opinions and our unique interpretations about what we see. That said, I couldn't disagree more. I don't think Jack had a low opinion about anything ever. He was the eternal glass half full character. His smile when he talks about the father in law buying him off, the "he hates my guts" with a smile, the concern about the kids schoolwork, the "we could do it over the phone" doesn't indicate to me low opinion but that he was the only one trying to participate in it. It is apparent (again to me) that Lureen isn't really participating in much other than to make Daddy happy with the business. Jack was a dreamer who didn't seem to like any sort of confrontation but when push came to shove could stand on his own two feet.
My take on it anyway...
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wow, nice slam there at the end about "evident". The beauty of these boards is that it is supposed to be about opinions and our unique interpretations about what we see. That said, I couldn't disagree more. I don't think Jack had a low opinion about anything ever. He was the eternal glass half full character. His smile when he talks about the father in law buying him off, the "he hates my guts" with a smile, the concern about the kids schoolwork, the "we could do it over the phone" doesn't indicate to me low opinion but that he was the only one trying to participate in it. It is apparent (again to me) that Lureen isn't really participating in much other than to make Daddy happy with the business. Jack was a dreamer who didn't seem to like any sort of confrontation but when push came to shove could stand on his own two feet.
My take on it anyway...
I didn't mean it as a slam. I was just saying the script pushes this reading. It's possible that Ang Lee and the actors departed from this take, as they did in other circumstances.
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Are you referring to the actual script or the book? By all means, if you have the script, post away, there are many all over this site.
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Are you referring to the actual script or the book? By all means, if you have the script, post away, there are many all over this site.
hey Tahoemom, yes, you can buy the script as a book. It also includes the original Proulx story, plus some great essays by all the writers. The script does make certain readings of scenes clear, but as I said, that doesn't mean those scenes as filmed don't contain ambiguities.
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I am well of what is out there and have already read the book. Just curious to see what the direction was versus my interpretation.
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I am well of what is out there and have already read the book. Just curious to see what the direction was versus my interpretation.
Oh, I'm sorry. Page 66 of the screenplay makes clear that Jack has "never stood up to his father-in-law before," that the man is used to casually bullying him.
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got it, thanks, think I need to hit ebay now and get the script.
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Boys should watch football. :D
Watch only with earphones or very quietly! Very funny.
http://www.youtube.com/p.swf?video_id=rNiUkN4GssI&l=285&eurl=&t=Its-a-football-t%5C
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chaya, both J and E are "heros" in the same way Oedipus is a hero, i.e., a tragic hero. Their fates are no less inescapable than Oedipus'. And as to the cause of death, it really doesn't matter. J could have been killed by a corn picker accident or exploding tire or any manner of other such accidents at the E & J ranch if there had been one.
For fun, try the thought experiment of re-writing the "elegy" part of the story, the final section starting, instead: "Jack did not know about the accident for months until the postcard he sent Ennis saying he hoped he's been able to get Don Wroe's cabin for November came back stamped
'DECEASED'."
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Aguirre and Alma both learn about J and E long before they confront, but when they do it is with malice.
Malice is one way to interpret it, but not the only way. Neither the text nor the movie tells us whether Alma's intention at this moment was good or bad. I prefer to think she had decided she wanted to encourage Ennis to make a real life with Jack.
She was nervous at dinner, thinking about how to bring it up when they had some privacy. She starts off by saying "we worry about you being alone. you ever think about getting married again? do you still go fishing with Jack Twist?" Ennis gets defensive at this point, but it's altogether possible that Alma meant to encourage him to develop his relationship with Jack. And she knew that they were lovers - so if she was saying anything positive about Jack then she was really going out on a limb.
It's not until Ennis gets angry that Alma gets angry too. And even then, what she says is "don't lie to me."
She could still be saying - in the best way she could manage - what the most empathetic and forewarned of us would say to Ennis at this point, which is "don't lie to yourself either - Jack is the love of your life, and you know it and I know it. Go ahead and marry him!"
I think the tragedy was Ennis's failure to consider that maybe Alma was trying to encourage him. He just couldn't bring himself to step into that world.
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Wdj, interesting thoughts about Alma encouraging Ennis to face reality and to acknowledge that Jack is his true love. But encouraging? I'm not so sure. The "Jack nasty" exclamation is far from being encouraging, and it's that insult (boiling in her inner self for years) that drives Ennis mad in the end because there is finally "verbal evidence" for his deeds and "sins".
I rather think that Alma, unlike her daughter, has not understood that Ennis will never be "the marrying kind". Neither for her nor for the waitress, sadly never for Jack either. Alma thinks everything can be settled by marrying another woman, though she should know better. What proves that in those years and those remote rural areas there was only one single way of living for an adult: married. Gay or being on your own was considered outrageous and, above all, disturbing.
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... The "Jack nasty" exclamation is far from being encouraging...
Yes, but that comes after the conversation has gone bad. She may have had good intentions.
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There is no doubt in my mind that Alma was not encouraging Ennis to have a life with Jack. In my view, there's nothing in the text nor in the subtext to support such a proposition.
Rather, this was all about Alma finally having the courage to unleash on Ennis after years of hidden devastation. She's not nervous at the table; she's desperately fighting her anger and unrest, which is quickly bubbling to the surface. (And I have to say, Williams is so brilliant in that shot.)
Further, Alma's question, "Do you still go fishing with Jack Twist?" was a lead-in to her diatribe ("I used to wonder..."), not an attempt to encourage him to seek out Jack.
In my view, such a notion grossly misinterprets Alma's character. This is a woman who spent years tortured and agonized by knowledge of her husband's infidelity. She kept all of this hidden deep down within herself and was only now able to vocalize it. To state that she would be willing to step outside of herself (and her society) to encourage Ennis to be with Jack not only ignores the social conventions of the time, but it ignores the fact that Alma was still dealing and coping with her own pain.
From Alma's POV, this was her chance to finally let Ennis know about all the pain he had caused her.
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There is no doubt in my mind that Alma was not encouraging Ennis to have a life with Jack. In my view, there's nothing in the text nor in the subtext to support such a proposition.....
Rather, this was all about Alma finally having the courage to unleash on Ennis after years of hidden devastation. She's not nervous at the table; she's desperately fighting her anger and unrest, which is quickly bubbling to the surface.
From Alma's POV, this was her chance to finally let Ennis know about all the pain he had caused her.
Agreed, though I think you are being overly generous by terming her diatribe an act of courage. True courage might take the form of "Ennis, there are some important things I need to say to you about our life together...." The "Jack Nasty" line is a knockout punch which echos her earlier, and equally cruel, "I'd have 'em if you'd support 'em." The behavior of Alma, and for that matter, Aguirre ("stem the rose" line), is cruel, not courageous.
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The behavior of Alma, and for that matter, Aguirre ("stem the rose" line), is cruel, not courageous.
I agree. I'm amazed by how generous so many of you are to give the best possible spin to each of the characters' actions.
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There is no doubt in my mind that Alma was not encouraging Ennis to have a life with Jack. In my view, there's nothing in the text nor in the subtext to support such a proposition.
Rather, this was all about Alma finally having the courage to unleash on Ennis after years of hidden devastation. She's not nervous at the table; she's desperately fighting her anger and unrest, which is quickly bubbling to the surface. (And I have to say, Williams is so brilliant in that shot.)
Further, Alma's question, "Do you still go fishing with Jack Twist?" was a lead-in to her diatribe ("I used to wonder..."), not an attempt to encourage him to seek out Jack.
In my view, such a notion grossly misinterprets Alma's character. This is a woman who spent years tortured and agonized by knowledge of her husband's infidelity. She kept all of this hidden deep down within herself and was only now able to vocalize it. To state that she would be willing to step outside of herself (and her society) to encourage Ennis to be with Jack not only ignores the social conventions of the time, but it ignores the fact that Alma was still dealing and coping with her own pain.
From Alma's POV, this was her chance to finally let Ennis know about all the pain he had caused her.
Given the text and the script, your interpretation is altogether plausible. It's the obvious interpretation, and it's the only possibility that occurred to me for a week or two after reading the story the first time.
But later I realized I was bringing my own assumptions in, and that it was also possible that Alma was trying to work through this herself.
In this case, I as a reader had made the same mistake that Ennis makes in not considering the possibilty that Alma had benevolent intentions. In this scenario, Ennis himself causes the problem by getting angry instead of hearing her out and letting it sink in.
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Scott88, you rock! You are always posting stuff that's exactly what's in my head and it comes out sounding so much better than if I wrote it. I agree with your analysis of Alma 100%.
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The behavior of Alma, and for that matter, Aguirre ("stem the rose" line), is cruel, not courageous.
I agree. I'm amazed by how generous so many of you are to give the best possible spin to each of the characters' actions.
No single interpretation is factually true - BBM is fiction. It's just a possibility that goes beyond the obvious.
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No single interpretation is factually true - BBM is fiction. It's just a possibility that goes beyond the obvious.
I do think some interpretations are truer than others, factually and otherwise. For example, I'm assuming most people here would reject the reading of the film given by some Christian conservatives: that it shows precisely why one should never act on homosexual desires....
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No single interpretation is factually true - BBM is fiction. It's just a possibility that goes beyond the obvious.
I do think some interpretations are truer than others, factually and otherwise. For example, I'm assuming most people here would reject the reading of the film given by some Christian conservatives: that it shows precisely why one should never act on homosexual desires....
That's deriving a moral (going outward from the story) as opposed to considering the possible intention of a character (going inward).
The obvious interpretation is that Alma was only angry about her own loss. But given the text and the script, it is possible that in addition to being angry about her loss, she also empathized with Ennis. Not certain, but possible.
Now to derive the moral - if we insist that someone is being hostile toward us because we assume that people are hostile about gays, we may create unnecessary problems for ourselves.
On the other hand, maybe by assuming hostility, we avoid the tire iron. Just can't tell.
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That's deriving a moral (going outward from the story) as opposed to considering the possible intention of a character (going inward).
I understand your point about being weary of allowing our own preconceptions "color" a given scene, but IMHO it's equally true that there are interpretations of the film which have more validity than others.
For my part, I have considered the full range of what Alma's intentions were. I didn't assume hostility, I saw and felt it from Michelle's performance and Ang's direction. And I would bet that the vast majority of viewers--gay, straight, and everything in between--came to a similar conclusion.
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... I didn't assume hostility, I saw and felt it from Michelle's performance and Ang's direction.
It's possible that Ang and Michelle intended to present only the angry Alma. What's inspiring to me is that the text allows for the possibility of an angry but also empathetic Alma.
I was surprised for example that Ang said in the Charlie Rose interview that it's obvious that Lureen is lying in the phone call. Given the depth of possibilities, I'm disappointed that he would pin it down to one truth. That detracts from the art.
As I think of it now though, he didn't say whether it was true that she was lying - he said it was obvious. Maybe he meant that it is the obvious interpretation but that it may still not be true. Maybe Ang is still trying to fool us! I would like that.
And I would bet that the vast majority of viewers--gay, straight, and everything in between--came to a similar conclusion.
I'm sure you're right! But I'm accustomed to being in a minority. ;)
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There is no doubt in my mind that Alma was not encouraging Ennis to have a life with Jack. In my view, there's nothing in the text nor in the subtext to support such a proposition.
Rather, this was all about Alma finally having the courage to unleash on Ennis after years of hidden devastation. She's not nervous at the table; she's desperately fighting her anger and unrest, which is quickly bubbling to the surface. (And I have to say, Williams is so brilliant in that shot.)
Further, Alma's question, "Do you still go fishing with Jack Twist?" was a lead-in to her diatribe ("I used to wonder..."), not an attempt to encourage him to seek out Jack.
In my view, such a notion grossly misinterprets Alma's character. This is a woman who spent years tortured and agonized by knowledge of her husband's infidelity. She kept all of this hidden deep down within herself and was only now able to vocalize it. To state that she would be willing to step outside of herself (and her society) to encourage Ennis to be with Jack not only ignores the social conventions of the time, but it ignores the fact that Alma was still dealing and coping with her own pain.
From Alma's POV, this was her chance to finally let Ennis know about all the pain he had caused her.
Here's another bit of evidence for this interpretation, and a further psychological possibility. Notice Alma's facial expression during the meal when Ennis is telling his story about his bronc-riding days. She is not a happy woman. She seems to exude pent up antagonism. Notice also that there are numerous elements in the Thanksgiving scenario which contrast Ennis' strong, cowboy masculinity with Monroe's domesticity and comparative delicacy: Monroe's use of the electric knife, his sitting posture while carving, his watching of figure skating, his iinability to get out of his chair when his wife is screaming in the kitchen, his lack of manly stories to tell, and his general manner. It may be that Alma finds Monroe lacking in these regards and is responding to still vivid feelings of desire for Ennis. (After all it's only been two years since their divorce.) One can then see her attack on Ennis in the kitchen as a response not only to years of feeling abused by him but to her still feeling attracted to him despite herself. (Notice also the way her daughters seem to worship Ennis. She cannot have missed that. Perhaps also this shows how "like mother like daughter.") Her verbal assault is then a combination of feelings of anger, betrayal, deprivation, desire, exasperation, and of course jealousy towards Jack. Mix this in with a desire to take him down from the pedestal he is placed on not only by the standards of masculinity but by her own desire and you have a strong motivation to use contempt to try to make Ennis feel low. Unfortunately, her attempt is all too successful. She has hit Ennis in his most vulnerable place.
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I've posted this elsewhere as a reply and am reposting it here because it concerns the Thanksgiving scenes.
There is no doubt in my mind that Alma was not encouraging Ennis to have a life with Jack. In my view, there's nothing in the text nor in the subtext to support such a proposition.
Rather, this was all about Alma finally having the courage to unleash on Ennis after years of hidden devastation. She's not nervous at the table; she's desperately fighting her anger and unrest, which is quickly bubbling to the surface. (And I have to say, Williams is so brilliant in that shot.)
Further, Alma's question, "Do you still go fishing with Jack Twist?" was a lead-in to her diatribe ("I used to wonder..."), not an attempt to encourage him to seek out Jack.
In my view, such a notion grossly misinterprets Alma's character. This is a woman who spent years tortured and agonized by knowledge of her husband's infidelity. She kept all of this hidden deep down within herself and was only now able to vocalize it. To state that she would be willing to step outside of herself (and her society) to encourage Ennis to be with Jack not only ignores the social conventions of the time, but it ignores the fact that Alma was still dealing and coping with her own pain.
From Alma's POV, this was her chance to finally let Ennis know about all the pain he had caused her.
Here's another bit of evidence for this interpretation, and a further psychological possibility. Notice Alma's facial expression during the meal when Ennis is telling his story about his bronc-riding days. She is not a happy woman. She seems to exude pent up antagonism. Notice also that there are numerous elements in the Thanksgiving scenario which contrast Ennis' strong, cowboy masculinity with Monroe's domesticity and comparative delicacy: Monroe's use of the electric knife, his sitting posture while carving, his watching of figure skating, his iinability to get out of his chair when his wife is screaming in the kitchen, his lack of manly stories to tell, and his general manner. It may be that Alma finds Monroe lacking in these regards and is responding to still vivid feelings of desire for Ennis. (After all it's only been two years since their divorce.) One can then see her attack on Ennis in the kitchen as a response not only to years of feeling abused by him but to her still feeling attracted to him despite herself. (Notice also the way her daughters seem to worship Ennis. She cannot have missed that. Perhaps also this shows how "like mother like daughter.") Her verbal assault is then a combination of feelings of anger, betrayal, deprivation, desire, exasperation, and of course jealousy towards Jack. Mix this in with a desire to take him down from the pedestal he is placed on not only by the standards of masculinity but by her own desire and you have a strong motivation to use contempt to try to make Ennis feel low. Unfortunately, her attempt is all too successful. She has hit Ennis in his most vulnerable place.
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She's not nervous at the table; she's desperately fighting her anger and unrest, which is quickly bubbling to the surface. (And I have to say, Williams is so brilliant in that shot.)
Absolutely, Scott. I have to say I agree with this reading of the Thanksgiving scene. Angry words were practically punching their way out of her face in that scene as Ennis was being - very charmingly, by the way - all cute and loving with his girls.
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cowboysnkisses you are spot on!
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(Notice also the way her daughters seem to worship Ennis. She cannot have missed that. Perhaps also this shows how "like mother like daughter.")
Always get something good from your posts, Cowboys... And she's been the one who's had to put in the donkey work of bringing up these girls all those years - the story says how Ennis never took them on holiday (which is very true, my dad was a farm worker and we never went on holiday either), but could always get to waltz off with Jack when he wanted it. And she must be dealing with the day to day problems of her girls getting used to a stepfather (Alma jnr shows later she wasn't too thrilled with her new household arrangements) ... and in breezes their cheating, adulterous part-time dad, all charming and loveable, and gets nothing but adoration from the daughters. No wonder she she's about to burst with fury! It must all seem so unfair to her. It's a great, very true scene to me. I can't see any of this stuff about Alma wanting to help Ennis have a life with Jack in there at all. Doesn't make any emotional, psychological sense to me. Don't pick up any that from Michelle's performance - and my empathy with her situation aligns with feeling just furious with the man! Maybe I'm just a nasty piece of work myself - 'Patroclus Nasty', eh?!
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I can't see any of this stuff about Alma wanting to help Ennis have a life with Jack in there at all. Doesn't make any emotional, psychological sense to me. Don't pick up any that from Michelle's performance...
Remember there are at least 3 components of the canon: the Proulx text, the McMurtry/ Ossana script, and the movie. The Proulx text and the M/O script (at least the words that were spoken, I don't know about stage directions) allow for the intriguing possibility that Alma was trying to deal with her anger in a constructive way. If the movie doesn't allow for that possibility for you, that's okay.
It's merely intriguing. It's a possibility. There is no certain truth about the characters. But I'll bet we as real human beings miss the majority of our opportunities to accept something good because we refuse to see it.
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But I'll bet we as real human beings miss the majority of our opportunities to accept something good because we refuse to see it.
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There is no certain truth about the characters. But I'll bet we as real human beings miss the majority of our opportunities to accept something good because we refuse to see it.
hi, wdj. I do think this is true but I understand this possibility between Ennis and Alma in this scene differently. I don't think any of Alma's motivation was about trying to actually directly help Ennis. But by being open with him about the truth, even if she was motivated by anger, she was giving him a chance to come clean with her, to acknowledge the truth about his actions for all those years and to apologise for hurting her and even try to explain why he felt he had to follow through his relationship with Jack. This opportunity was there and I think there's a good chance it might have helped build some bridges between them. Maybe.
But he'd have had to be much less terrified and much more able to integrate all the different bits of himself to have managed that and the poor guy was not going to get himself that together, was he? Good to share some thoughts with you.
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The Ennis alley scene was very difficult and shocking for me. I had read the short story before seeing the movie but I was still not prepared for this scene. His convulsions turn into sobs and then his anger at being seen, it's all very heartbreaking.
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The behavior of Alma, and for that matter, Aguirre ("stem the rose" line), is cruel, not courageous.
I agree. I'm amazed by how generous so many of you are to give the best possible spin to each of the characters' actions.
No single interpretation is factually true - BBM is fiction. It's just a possibility that goes beyond the obvious.
Shut up about Alma. This ain't her fault.
Alma is Spanish for soul. Does this mean this is where Ennis' soul should be...with his wife and daughters, had he not already given his heart to another? I'm not sure, but I suspect her name wasn't accidental.
What strikes me about the Thanksgiving scene in the Twist household is that this is the first time we see Jack with his mustache. This scene directly follows the male prostitute in Mexico scene and we never see Jack's beautiful toothsome smile again. It's like, now he's in double disguise. And it's strange that he starts asserting his masculinity after he starts paying men for sex. After emerging victorious from his head-butting with LD, there's not a trace of smug satisfaction or gloating. Just a kind of despair so bad he has to shield his eyes for a moment. Then bitterly standing to carve the bird. He never wanted to be the "stud duck". He just wants to be Ennis' lil darlin. Jack's character tears my heart out more and more each time I see BBM.
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Shut up about Alma. This ain't her fault.
Amen. Thanks for that. Can you imagine what it must have been like to be in her shoes? I think she remarried more for convenience and security than anything else. She lost the man she loved the most, and still loved.
Cara
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riskey, excellent analysis of Jack here!
By the way, "alma" is "soul" in latin too...
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After the rejection scene, Jack should have tried to threaten Ennis not to see him for a while or s.th., tried to threaten him in order to put Ennis's love to the test. Establish "conditions" for future meetings. Jack was ever so polite, so respectful towards Ennis, it's just heartbreaking - something Ennis wouldn't ever have considered. His brutality towards Jack is sometimes unbearable (the punch in the last BBMT scene, the rejection in front of the girls, his unfair accusations during their last big fight).
Ennis simply can't stand by Jack. He NEVER wants them to be seen together - and he succeeds. I mean, in the whole film (except the reunion scene) he is always totally alone with Jack.
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After the rejection scene, Jack should have tried to threaten Ennis not to see him for a while or s.th., tried to threaten him in order to put Ennis's love to the test. Establish "conditions" for future meetings. Jack was ever so polite, so respectful towards Ennis, it's just heartbreaking - something Ennis wouldn't ever have considered. His brutality towards Jack is sometimes unbearable (the punch in the last BBMT scene, the rejection in front of the girls, his unfair accusations during their last big fight).
Ennis simply can't stand by Jack. He NEVER wants them to be seen together - and he succeeds. I mean, in the whole film (except the reunion scene) he is always totally alone with Jack.
To Ennis's credit, he did seem very regretful when he sent Jack away. He was paranoid and scared but he did introduce him to his girls and he didn't get angry or even try to rush Jack off. He was at a loss. When he punched Jack, that was clearly not fair but the play fighting got out of hand because Ennis was sad about leaving so he did what any repressed man would do, he slugs Ennis. It's kinda the grown man version of pulling pigtails.
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Shut up about Alma. This ain't her fault.
:D :D :D
10 points for apt BBM aphorism!
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(Notice also the way her daughters seem to worship Ennis. She cannot have missed that. Perhaps also this shows how "like mother like daughter.")
Always get something good from your posts, Cowboys... And she's been the one who's had to put in the donkey work of bringing up these girls all those years - the story says how Ennis never took them on holiday (which is very true, my dad was a farm worker and we never went on holiday either), but could always get to waltz off with Jack when he wanted it. And she must be dealing with the day to day problems of her girls getting used to a stepfather (Alma jnr shows later she wasn't too thrilled with her new household arrangements) ... and in breezes their cheating, adulterous part-time dad, all charming and loveable, and gets nothing but adoration from the daughters. No wonder she she's about to burst with fury! It must all seem so unfair to her. It's a great, very true scene to me. I can't see any of this stuff about Alma wanting to help Ennis have a life with Jack in there at all. Doesn't make any emotional, psychological sense to me. Don't pick up any that from Michelle's performance - and my empathy with her situation aligns with feeling just furious with the man! Maybe I'm just a nasty piece of work myself - 'Patroclus Nasty', eh?!
It always makes me smile when someone comes on a thread and says exactly what I'm feeling. I have been down this road myself. My dad was an adulterer (my mom was the 'other woman') and so you can just imagine how many broken promises and half assed parenting that went on from his end, however, since him coming around was such a rare occurance and he gave us money and cakes and candies he got the heroes welcome while my mother fucking toiled to keep us afloat from day to day. My mother was always careful never to bad mouth our father in front of us but they would argue somethign fierce.
I don't want to tell people their interpretation of a scene is wrong. Far be it from me really, but some things make thematic scense and the simple fact that she was so ready with her diatribe just doesn't support Alma wanting to encourage her husband to make a life with the man he cheated on her with for like 15 years. She ate her meal like she was chewing glass. I think she was trying to say to him "You need to stop fucking that dude and get married. You're still young and you shouldn't be alone." The idea that Ennis could 'not be alone' if he was with Jack doesn't seem to be a consideration because men don't build lives together in Alma's world.
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I also posted this in the character analysis of E. I'm a newbie so give me pass.
Anyway, it's always bugged me in the story and the book about why E felt it necessary to inform Jack of his divorce. What motivates him to do that? What purpose is served?
He should have waited until they were together to tell him especially with his knowledge of Jack's feelings about living together and that Ennis was not going to go there.
Ennis is an emotional abuser and a bit of a manipulator.
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I can't answer if Ennis is an emotional abuser and a bit of a manipulator, but what I can say, from the movie at least is that he was sad about the divorce and he need to talk to someone, so naturally he reached out to Jack. In the movie Ennis actually has tears in his eyes when the Judge announces the divorce. In the book, Annie writes that Ennis called Jack in Texas, this being the first time and the last one to Lureen. However, in the screen play it is mentioned that Ennis sent a card letting Jack know the divorce came through. Ang Lee didn't show this in the movie except Jack driving down from Texas. Keep in mind that the divorce happend after the reunion so Jack naturally thought Ennis took up on his offer of sweet life. I'm not sure who is to blame. All this shows is that there is not much communication between Jack and Ennis except sending post cards back and forth about their meet-ups. It is almost like they want to talk to each other but they too scared to. I wonder why?
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I also posted this in the character analysis of E. I'm a newbie so give me pass.
Anyway, it's always bugged me in the story and the book about why E felt it necessary to inform Jack of his divorce. What motivates him to do that? What purpose is served?
He should have waited until they were together to tell him especially with his knowledge of Jack's feelings about living together and that Ennis was not going to go there.
Ennis is an emotional abuser and a bit of a manipulator.
I honestly don't think Ennis is in touch enough with how he really feels ta be termed a manipulator. Nothin "motivates" Ennis ta do anything. He's not strategic or manipulative unless it's deeply subconscious. Ennis is repressed emotionally. Men who are like that tend ta only feel anger if anything at all and they struggle ta express themselves and often don't till it booms out in anger. Understand that Jack is his only close friend, tha only one who he could reach out to. And he both loves and hates Jack for that on so many levels that he can't wrap his head around. Divorce means to Ennis that he's losing his cover of normalcy, he's thrown out to tha wolves - lost his protection of anonimity. He's no longer "married like everyone else" in town. He's open for scrutiny and he thinks everyone is always starin at him. He's a paranoid. Divorce doesn't mean freedom for him and it does mean freedom for Jack and their personalities are so different that there was a disconnect. I'm sure Ennis felt bad about it, but was trapped in a situation that he was too afraid of. Jack understood that. He knew not to cause a scene in front of the girls and in that small town atmosphere. Sadly, he was also left ta deal with his own feelings by himself - but at least he could feel his own feelings consciously.
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In the truck rejection scene I was like "There's got to be a way around this! Don't leave Jack!" Like someone said above, he could have visited with a folks until the girls left. First I was like just let him stay in the living room or something and whatever you do don't fuck each other. Of course once the girls told mom that Jack stayed with them Alma would have likely gotten his visitation rescinded and announced to the county that Ennis was a big ol' homo so the parent visit would have been best but Jack is so crestfallen he doesn't even consider that he heads strait into the embrace of a prostitute.
Also, I kind of think that Jack knew in the back of his mind tht all was not right since he had no luggage it looked like and he hadn't let his wife know he was leaving her. He made the drive because hope springs eternal but there was a part in his mind that knew this was not going to go down like he wanted.
Yes, it's heartbreaking that they didn't arrange something. Jack could have visited his folks until Ennis brought the girls back to Alma. He could have camped out in the wild and waited for Ennis. There are so many possibiliities. The fact that no alternative occurred to Ennis suggests that he was just too paranoid to be thinking clearly. Jack could have suggested something too. But he was too hurt at being turned away by the lover he thought had summoned him to fulfil his fantasy--too hurt to do anything but go off and tend his wounded heart.
He may have had luggage -- we can't see inside the vehicle. He likely told Lureen he was going off for a week, and if he ended up staying, I think then he would have told Lureen he wanted the divorce. I think Ennis was too paranoid to be thinking clearly but I think if he'd had a little more time, if Jack had not left so quickly, he may have been able to think of asking him to stay around a while longer. Perhaps he would have been able to get past that fear. Ennis knew what the rejection was doing to Jack -- he calls after "Jack" twice with concern about how this is hurting him. His posture after Jack leaves shows he knows he's hurt Jack and he folds in on himself with guilt and (I think) remorse. If Jack had responded to Ennis' "Jack" and let him do a little more talking, maybe it would have turned out differently. He was just too hurt in the moment, though, and maybe he felt they couldn't talk because his daughters were there.
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I thought I'd include some more information about the figure skating on the television.
The event they were watching was 1980 Skate Canada. Skate Canada didn't include pairs until the mid-eighties because there were so few pairs teams. So, it was an ice dance team. A Canadian team by the name of Joanne French & John Thomas skated to Carmen. I'm not versed in the story of Carmen, so any enlightenment would be appreciated.
Since they shot in Calgary, which hosted the 1988 Winter Olympics, I figure the filmmakers got the footage from a Canadian station. I doubt a US network would show some obscure Canadian ice dance team. Canada celebrates Thanksgiving Day in October, so it's not surprising they had this event on US Thanksgiving. The only thing to determine is how this American family was watching this. CTV had the rights to the event back in the day (and still do), but Americans don't get CTV, do they? I know Americans who live near the border can get CBC, so I could see this Wyoming family getting the CBC. But I don't think CTV is possible.
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I thought I'd include some more information about the figure skating on the television.
The event they were watching was 1980 Skate Canada. Skate Canada didn't include pairs until the mid-eighties because there were so few pairs teams. So, it was an ice dance team. A Canadian team by the name of Joanne French & John Thomas skated to Carmen. I'm not versed in the story of Carmen, so any enlightenment would be appreciated.
Since they shot in Calgary, which hosted the 1988 Winter Olympics, I figure the filmmakers got the footage from a Canadian station. I doubt a US network would show some obscure Canadian ice dance team. Canada celebrates Thanksgiving Day in October, so it's not surprising they had this event on US Thanksgiving. The only thing to determine is how this American family was watching this. CTV had the rights to the event back in the day (and still do), but Americans don't get CTV, do they? I know Americans who live near the border can get CBC, so I could see this Wyoming family getting the CBC. But I don't think CTV is possible.
This Board is a marvel. Who knew we could get such background on a snippet of a TV show being shown?
I do think the ice skating is shown on purpose to contrast the Twist household where "men watch football." If one were to search for a televised sport diametrically opposite of "manly" football, it would be ice dance.
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We all came or will come to this "truck scene" incidence in our life time. This is an universal situation to all lovers in their relationships. Ya, Jack could have stayed a bit longer or discussed a bit more before leaving. Everybody UNDERSTANDS this theory but no many would deal with it rationally. I for one, WOULD NOT STAY in that incidence because I hate to be the one, always that particular "one" to deal with the situation while the other one always not dealing. It is hurtful. When pride mingles with feeling of love, nothing is easy. Jack was not hurt for Ennis' obligation with his daughters that weekend. He was hurt because of the fact Ennis can not accept their relationship and is always SO AFRAID people might see them together. Honestly, this kind of relationship has no freedom and unfortunately, the love between them is too strong. My poor little darlin' Jack. I feel you.
I agreed with someone here said: "Jack should have finally learned. What he had was basically a "one night stand" that played sporadically for twenty years." BUT I AM VERY VERY SAD TO COME TO KIND OF ACKNOWLEDGE THIS STATEMENT! Oh no ...
My question to Ennis - would you rather Jack not to find you 4 years after you separated, let you half alive in peace or would you rather have one true love to lift your life to the highest point one time and you bear with the uncertain consequences. Ennis, I feel you too!
Understand this, lot of us never had or would not encounter same level of love or passion like these Jack and Ennis.
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I just love that part of the scene where Ennis is telling his bronc riding story to the girls. Alma Jr asks Ennis to tell them about when he rode broncs in the rodeo and it is obvious from the thrill in her voice that this is a story that the girls have heard often before from their dad, a story that they just love to hear and that their dad just loves to tell. I cannot help but think that when he was telling this rodeo story to the girls, Ennis was thinking about Jack (his rodeo guy). Whether it be consciously or not, this was a way for him to "talk" about Jack to his girls, to talk about the man he loved to the girls he loved, to have both of his conflicting worlds connect. He couldn't do it overtly, but used the story to make the link.
Maybe Alma sensed this at the table, which prompted her to confront Ennis later that evening about his relationship with Jack.
(my apologies for any mistakes or awkwardness in expressing myself, but I'm French-speaking).
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In a very subtle move, Heath Ledger glances off to the side when Jack says he's asked about 10 people in Riverton how to find Ennis. This comes just before the passing truck when it is obvious that Ennis is concerned about being watched as a homo... And of course he's also suddenly nervous when they've embraced and he turns to see if the girls in the truck can see them.
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i keep thinking this is a pretty big deal--haven't read that much about it--that jack has ASKED TEN people in a very very small town where Ennis lives... i mean that is pretty major... this isn't in the short story so we can't get another perspective of it. but i wonder if ennis doesn't go w/ jack just because he hears the 10 people line. what if jack hadn't said that? i wonder if ennis gets more paranoid after that or if he feels like he can one day change. it's something i feel like i will never know. jack is just so much more open than ennis. would ennis go to texas and ask 10 people where jack lived? i mean, this is why jake has to win an oscar. this is an unbelievably understated but very powerful performance in this scene. i mean what if ang had showed us one of those scenes. jack, being jack, walking into a tiny food store asking for ennis. ?! then walking across the street at the gas station !! then at the diner ! then at the bank? then in the grocery store? then in the post office? was anyone looking at jack weird, or what did he say? did anyone ever tell ennis that someone was looking for him? who told jack where ennis was? i mean jack doesn't look queer so maybe everyone just thought they were rodeo friends. why couldn't the man in the anonymous white truck just think they were rodeo friends? what's so wrong w/ that? anyway we'll never totally totally know.....
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I was surprised when Ennis didn't react more strongly when Jack said he had asked ten people where he was. But I think it led to Ennis staring distractedly at the white truck going by, that he might not have even noticed otherwise. And so on.
Who knows? If Jack hadn't been so excited when he arrived that he rambled on about talking to ten people, without thinking through the effect of his words on Ennis, his surprise visit might have turned out differently. Ennis did introduce him to his daughters. Had Jack had his wits about him, he might have used that to his advantage to get Ennis to cave. But, Jack was thinking too emotionally when Ennis stared too thoughtfully at that truck, and there went that chance.
Okay, I'm depressed now. I'm going to go find something chocolate...
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If Ennis's girls is not in the truck then the situation will be different, maybe they will have more conversations and talk about living together?
It is also related to the homophobia that Ennis have after Alma revealed what she wanted to say all these years.
I wish there is more scene Ennis and Jack together in those 20 years in the movie and not just some quick brief scenes of their rendezvous. Don't your think so?
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I agree. There is not enough moments together of J & E to show how their relationship was developing.
The whole scene with the truck and the girls are not in the original short story. In the original short story, the author writes that when the divorce was final, Ennis called Jack and Jack drove up north for nothing. This is just after the DECEASED card was received and just before Ennis was going to call Jack at his home and was hoping he would answer the call.
In the screen play the writes turned this whole scene around by saying Ennis sent a card to Jack saying the divorce was final.
The interesting thing I noted was in between the card and Jack's visit Ennis moved but never bothered to tell Jack his new address. Jack had to ask around. I was like okay, what kind of friend is Ennis? Didn't even bother to tell Jack his new address?
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The interesting thing I noted was in between the card and Jack's visit Ennis moved but never bothered to tell Jack his new address. Jack had to ask around. I was like okay, what kind of friend is Ennis? Didn't even bother to tell Jack his new address?
That's outta feara connection. Ennis is a compartmentalizer. He boxes seperate pieces of his life off from each other. I know lotsa guys like that. I do that sometimes too. The biggest problem I have entering into relationships and stayin with'em is that guys cling and don't give me alone away time. I still have never got to a point where a boyfriend and I were a merged "we". I have and ex who always called me "Captain Armlength" and it's taken me years ta ease up on that. I only self-reveal to a boyfriend when I'm extremely comfortable and for a long time during tha beginnin of a relationship my attutude is when we're together, I'm focused on you and what we're doin, but when we're apart, what he and I do'er totally our individual business. I'm not sayin it's right, but i'm sayin it's God truth for me that that's the way I am. I'm workin on it though. Ennis is even more extreme, whereas I only wanna do one thing a week for a longtime when I'm enterin into a relationship, Ennis's pace is about every three months due to work and that is what his pace seems to fit.
Jack's not like that, he's social and gregarious. I also betcha he doesn't equate sexual activity with love either. Sex is great with Ennis but I'll bet Jack values most that Ennis only opens up emotionally for him. That's far more flattering and attractive. Wow, that's special to me. Jack's on his own tha other part of tha three months btwn trips up there. We know he has tha higher libido and is a extroverted thrillseeker - HELLO! BULLRIDER!!!!!. Course he's goin cattin and carousin. He's human and male. He's not content to "wring it out a hundred times" like Ennis is. Cattin and carousin is dealin with people and that's stressful for Ennis. Jack runs TO people to relieve his stress. He doen't run back home ta Lureen, he runs ta Mexico ta get it outta his system. Big chunka men aren't monogamous anyway. Just tha way it is.
This scene is more about Ennis's paranoia than about what Jack's actually done prior to their conversation. I think most small town people wouldn't think to much of it - Jack ain't a flamer or nuthin. But those simple words followed by that truck comin on past spark that fear and paranoia - specially with tha girls in tha truck.
Besides, in towns tha size of there's, they could just write Jack Twist, Childress Texas or Ennis Del Mar, Riverton, Wyoming and it'd get to'em. Postmaster always knows everybody.
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Jack send his mail to Ennis general delivery. It probably never crosses Ennis' mind that Jack would need to know his actual addy for anything.
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The alley when Ennis doubles over is the one that caused me to enter into the story completely. It became for me at that moment, a grand love story and not a "gay cowboy film." Becasue I had a time in my life when my love had to leave and I felt so sick and beat up about it...that pain in your gut is so real and unrelenting. Yet I was lucky...i married him. And to think of not being about to have a life with the one you were meant for....the pain is so imaginable!
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The alley scene is truely gut wrenching.
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From the thread about J & E: s sex life:
When Jack left he said "see ya next month." I wanna know what they discuss next month, and if they have crazy passionate sex that trip (I just think that might be Ennis' way of making things up to Jack whenever he lets him down--great makeup sex).
I have also been thinking a lot, what happened, what did they talked about that "next month" ?
Was it 'business as usual' or did they argued a lot about Jacks dream about a 'sweet life together'?
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It's interesting reading this scene in the screenplay. In it, Ennis is in agony (it says this) over turning Jack away, he is "torn" between his responsibility to his daughters and his to Jack. . .In watching the film, it appears as more of a straight-out spurn. It comes to the same thing though in both, Jack's mistake of thinking Ennis's divorce would finally allow them to really be together.
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"... Jack's mistake of thinking Ennis's divorce would finally allow them to really be together."
I'll ask these questions again to see if anybody else besides the few kind repondents who have shared their answer want to answer:
What motivates Ennis to inform Jack of his divorce? What reaction did he think Jack woyld have? It's always bothered me that Ennis would feel it neccesary to do that when he is fully aware that Jack wants a life together with him and Ennnis knows he won't go there.
It's as though Ennis is holding Jack's puppet strings: "Let's see. If I jerk this way the puppet reacts this way..."
I think Ennis was cruel to tell Jack of his divorce with it being in a face to face way.
There, I've said it.
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It is funny and yet alot of people see Jack as the manipulator in the relationship. I actually think Ennis held all the strings, as you said.
But Ennis was just so darn confused and such a mess most of his life, it is hard to blame him for anything. :'(
But when Jack drives away, the hurt on his face is just too much!
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Strange enough, come to think about it, that Ennis didn't invite (or try to invite) Jack for his WEDDING in the first place. (For the obvious reasons of course: fear, shame, not wanting to have their "exclusivity" with each other destroyed.)
And strange too, that he announced the divorce to Jack, WITHOUT having a new option for a life together with Jack on his mind, and WITHOUT indicating his new address. What was that supposed to mean - I tell you I'm FREE, but I don't tell you where I've MOVED?
One of the many inexplicable details in the movie, I must say. (Even given Ennis' very special, reclusive character.)
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The Ennis/Alma kitchen scene took place in 1980? Gee, I thought it was 1977, same as the scene at Jack and Lureen's house.
Anyway, I get very bad vibes from Alma's treatment of Ennis. In the Proulx story, Alma is scrubbing a plate so hard, Ennis fears that she'll scrape the pattern off, so she's pretty agitated. Ennis, for his part, is only there so people won't think he's a "sad daddy" (Proulx's story).
Someone mentioned that Alma must be feeling put-upon about having had to do the hard work of raising the children (and holding down a job besides), and may even have been envious of Ennis's easy rapport with the children. Still, when I see Ennis go into that kitchen and start helping with the dishes (even though he's a guest, and it's not his house), I wonder why Alma let him get away? Some wives would love to have a man who would be that helpful. But she's going off like a volcano anyway.
Ennis never had enough opportunities to be anything more than a ranch hand. He works hard, he puts in long hours, and he's never going to make much headway in life. Apparently, he genuinely likes working with livestock, which would preclude getting a job with telephone company or the county. Alma's "I have 'em if you'd support 'em" comment probably hurt him deeply. Knowing that he can't earn more, he gives up conjugal relations. He thinks it's what she wants. She begins to feel lonely and unloved, which just aggravates things more.
Anyway, Ennis seems to see that Alma is angry at him in the kitchen, and he tries to calm her down. Unfortunately, too many bad things have gone on between them, and they both do things they ought to regret. In the story, Ennis is so traumatized by the scene that he cuts off all communication with his family for years. He doesn't want to hurt and disappoint his ex-wife, so withdrawing completely is the only option he can think of.
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I think I posted it somewhere, but the kitchen scene is to me, the perfect realization of the Achillee's heel...Alma knew Ennis's, shot for it, and scored a bullseye.
It is an amazing scene. I think that it is the one and only time Ennis ever...and let me say that again with all the power of word processing EVER rose his fist to Alma...that is what makes that such an important scene...it IS out of the character of Ennis.
At the July 4th celebration, he was using that violence to protect and maintain his vision of his role of man, husband, and father. At that sink, as he carries in dirty dishes (how many housewives watch that scene thinking, yeah, like my macho idiot husband would even think to do that) he is now defending his very own definition of manhood and man.
It is an amazing scene...this is one damn quiet movie...my ears actually hurt when I walk out because you have to listen so hard to hear anything but what you can hear...shattering words that rattle emotions.
I've said it before but I'll repeat it hear...what event...real or fiction...has sparked so much discussion that is so positive and life-affirming...people just want to share and be with those who want to share after seeing this movie and that is why I'm am so thankful for this website.
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I feel constrained to say that both Jack and Ennis seemed idiotic to me in the second truck scene. I didn't believe for a second that Ennis would brush Jack off like that, simply because the daughters are visiting. Those girls are old enough to babysit other people's kids, so I KNOW that they could watch themselves for a couple of hours a night.
I sort of hated Ennis in that scene. IMHO he was cruel and inconsiderate to Jack.
It was horrible that Ennis wasn't welcoming to Jack, but Jack shouldn't have simply accepted that. If I were Jack, I'd get a nearby motel room, and keep pestering Ennis until he found a way to slip away.
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It is funny and yet alot of people see Jack as the manipulator in the relationship. I actually think Ennis held all the strings, as you said.
I agree. Jack was Ennis' total love slave. Ennis had him by the balls.
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Ennis = his anger at being seen
Sometimes it seems to me the whole movie could be called "DON'T LOOK NOW" from E.'s p.o.v.
It's all about watching, being watched, not being watched, looking, not looking, looking away
E & J having fun outdoors - Aguirre watching
E in the alley breakdown - unknown cowboy watching
E & J kissing in the reunion scene - Alma watching
J in the rodeo - Lureen watching
Lureen in the rodeo - J watching
J being watched by Lureen in the bar
E as a boy watching the dead body (Earl & Rich scene)
etc.
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I would like to offer a kinder view of Alma than I did the last time I posted here.
At Thanksgiving dinner, Alma can't have been very happy having her second husband listen to the children extolling the virtues of her first husband. If the first husband was that great, she worries, then the second husband must be thinking that maybe she was the reason for the breakup. Only one thing would redeem her position: if Ennis would admit to loving Jack more than he could love any woman. That would mean that his rejection of Alma was nothing personal; he didn't love her because he simply *couldn't* love her. When Ennis balks at confessing this, Alma loses it. All she has left is vilification of "Jack nasty": It was that darn deviant that lured Ennis away from her and wrecked her marriage ;-).
I really do feel sorry for Alma. She's shy and sensitive, and she's been dealt a share of rejection that must have shaken her to her core. There's nobody that she can talk to about her problem, especially not either of her husbands. She doesn't hate Ennis enough to want him dead, and she probably knows of hate crimes against gay men in that area. Calling him into the kitchen to talk privately shows a concern for his privacy, and for the children's feelings. She gave him a chance to come clean about what he did with Jack. Sadly, she was emotionally too overwrought to present it calmly, and Ennis was too defensive.
Not a good situation. :( She never relieved her own anxieties, and Ennis was deeply wounded...
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I would like to offer a kinder view of Alma than I did the last time I posted here.
At Thanksgiving dinner, Alma can't have been very happy having her second husband listen to the children extolling the virtues of her first husband. If the first husband was that great, she worries, then the second husband must be thinking that maybe she was the reason for the breakup. Only one thing would redeem her position: if Ennis would admit to loving Jack more than he could love any woman. That would mean that his rejection of Alma was nothing personal; he didn't love her because he simply *couldn't* love her. When Ennis balks at confessing this, Alma loses it. All she has left is vilification of "Jack nasty": It was that darn deviant that lured Ennis away from her and wrecked her marriage ;-).
I really do feel sorry for Alma. She's shy and sensitive, and she's been dealt a share of rejection that must have shaken her to her core. There's nobody that she can talk to about her problem, especially not either of her husbands. She doesn't hate Ennis enough to want him dead, and she probably knows of hate crimes against gay men in that area. Calling him into the kitchen to talk privately shows a concern for his privacy, and for the children's feelings. She gave him a chance to come clean about what he did with Jack. Sadly, she was emotionally too overwrought to present it calmly, and Ennis was too defensive.
Not a good situation. :( She never relieved her own anxieties, and Ennis was deeply wounded...
I was really pleased to see this second post from you, Paul. When I read your first post I thought 'here we go again, another guy who can't seem to get his head or heart around what it might have been like from Alma's point of view'. I'm glad you've thought about it more because I genuinely think this film gives us complex situations where the men's and the women's dilemmas are offered up to us, rather than simple 'good' guys and 'bad' guys polarities. Thanks
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The scene at the sink between E and A is pivotal I believe. This is where E gets to realize that someone other than he and J are aware of what has been really goin' on. See the way that Ledger builds up a body shaking crescendo of fear and dread of whats about to be said as Alma joins all the dots and finally bursts out with ''Jack Twist, Jack nasty....'' And to think that this exchange may well not have happened had Ennis kept quiet about having been ''burned'', referring to his marriage to A. No wonder she took the bull by the horns!!
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<<I was really pleased to see this second post from you, Paul. When I read your first post I thought 'here we go again, another guy who can't seem to get his head or heart around what it might have been like from Alma's point of view'. I'm glad you've thought about it more because I genuinely think this film gives us complex situations where the men's and the women's dilemmas are offered up to us, rather than simple 'good' guys and 'bad' guys polarities. Thanks>>
Hi, Patroclus. Thanks for the kind words. Michelle does a fantastic job with a very difficult part. I *want* to see her side, but it took three viewings of the film beforre I really did. The key is the sledding scene just after the wedding. She seems so innocent and fragile. I didn't notice that the first two times...
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The great tragedy of the film is Ennis' fear of who is watching.
Don't forget being watched by the people passing in the white truck, as well as Ennis' little speech to Jack about people looking at him like they all know.
Interestingly, Ennis thought BBM was their safe place where no one could see, but Jack knows different (he knows Aguirre was watching), yet Jack never told Ennis. IMO, it is a telling secret to keep because it is probably what drove Jack away from Wyoming (and Ennis) for four years and what allows Jack to understand Ennis' fear of being watched (after all, he has had to deal with the shame and guilt of having been found out, and it is something he never shares with his partner).
I think Ennis' line in the alley ("what the fuck you lookin at?") foreshadows the rest of the movie.
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The great tragedy of the film is Ennis' fear of who is watching.
(...)
Interestingly, Ennis thought BBM was their safe place where no one could see, but Jack knows different (he knows Aguirre was watching), yet Jack never told Ennis.
Yes, and it struck me, on viewing the movie again, how often Jack tried to spare Ennis the pain he himself had had to bear. In the motel scene, he tells Ennis he went back to Brokeback to look for him, but Aguirre "said you hadn't been back, so I left." He knew Ennis couldn't bear to hear that Aguirre had found them out. Jack didn't tell Ennis that Aguirre had humilated him and ordered him out of his trailer like a piece of trash. Though it might have brought him solace to vent about it, he kept the humiliation to himself and shielded Ennis from its sting. Similarly, he never let on to Ennis about Mexico nor about Randall, less because he feared Ennis' reaction, I think, than because of the pain he instinctively knew it would cause him. Jack knew those dalliances meants nothing, and weren't worth wounding Ennis with for the sake of being truthful. Jack was always so tender, so protective of Ennis, so aware of his hypersensitivities, knowing to soothe and gentle him, when sudden and powerful emotions overtook and bewildered him. No one watched Ennis more carefully and lovingly than Jack. He knew him to the core.
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In the Proulx story, this is quite different however:
(motel scene talk between J & E, Jack speaking:)
"Got to tell you friend, maybe somebody seen us that summer. I was back there the next June, thinkin about goin back - I didn't, lit out for Texas instead - and Joe Aguirre's in the office and he says to me, he says 'You boys found a way to make the time pass up there, didn't you', and I give him a look but when I went out I seen he had a big-ass pair a binoculars hangin off his rearview."
So in the story Ennis knew from Jack that they had been seen on BBM and by whom and that it had been mentioned intentionally by Aguirre to Jack.
The only thing Jack left out in the story was Aguirre's "stem the rose"-insult and the fact that he didn't hire Jack again BECAUSE of what he saw happening.
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Excuse me if this has been covered but I want your thoughts on something related to the divorce truck scene. in the story Ennis calls Jack and says Alma divorced me yet in the movie he just sends Jack a postcard. Why do you think this was changed? A phone call is more personal so I wonder why they would have Ennis do something that wasn't so personal.
Jason
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"A Canadian team by the name of Joanne French & John Thomas skated to Carmen. I'm not versed in the story of Carmen, so any enlightenment would be appreciated."
The story of Carmen takes place in Spain. She is a very attractive gypsy. She works in a cigar factory and is involved in a fight. When the military police come to calm the situation she is arrested. A young officer, known for his good character is assigned to guard her. He is known for his honor and his love of his fiancee. Carmen seduces him, he lets her go,thus becoming an outlaw himself, and eventually he falls so deeply in love with her that he gives up his life and honor. She leaves him. It destroys him and he eventually tracks her down and kills her. I don't know if Lee was trying to say something with this or not. I have some ideas, but am interested if anyone else does. Anyone?
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Well, most of Ennis's and Jack's correspondence were through postcards. Plus you know paranoid Ennis was. Except through postcasts, Ennis made sure him and Jack met in the middle of now where. I think in the movie version, if Ennis had called then maybe Lureen would have picked up the phone, since she is always at her desk working. If this happend then both have to chit chat and I'm thinking it would have the drama out of the last phone conversation. This is where Ennis first hears Lureen's voice and in effect meets her. I think this is why the phone call was only reserved after the accident.
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It's interesting reading this scene in the screenplay. In it, Ennis is in agony (it says this) over turning Jack away, he is "torn" between his responsibility to his daughters and his to Jack. . .In watching the film, it appears as more of a straight-out spurn.
Do you find it so, bluehorse? I've seen the film three times now and it really sticks in my memory Ennis screwing up his eyes in regret and looking at Jack in a pleading way. I felt he really hated having to turn him away. I'm seeing it for the 4th time - and last at the cinema, I've decided - tomorrow and I'll check this out again. x p
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It looks to me as if Ennis has tears in his eyes. I think he is heartbroken, and he looks so sad as Jack pulls away.
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PATROCLUS you are right again. Yes. I think Ennis was truly sorry and sad the he had to turn Jack away. No question about it. The nice thing though was how Ennis took Jack to say hi to the girls. Ennis even said to the girls say hi to Jack. Ennis ever asked Jack if he wanted to meet the girls. He had no issues with the girls meeting Jack and visa versa. I loved the way Jack comes up to him all smiles and give him a hug. Did you see the way his hands held Ennis's neck.
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I also thought that Ennis was very unhappy about having to send Jack away. He has a hard time even looking Jack in the eye because he didn't want to see the pain he was causing him. His expression is definately one of a man who isn't happy about the situation. Ennis tells Jack "I'm sorry Jack, you know I am." He also says his name as Jack is turning to leave and it seemed clear to me that he wanted to say more and didn't want him to leave but didn't think there was any other way to deal with the situation because he had the girls.
He is clearly happy to see Jack when he arrives. He even introduces him to his girls but he feels he owes this time to his children and I agree. He only gets to see them once a month and he missed the month before because of work. Jack showed up without a word and expects him to go off with him. While I understand why Jack shows up and my heart breaks for him every time I see that scene I think Ennis does what he thinks is the responsable thing regarding his kids and I can't fault him for that.
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Yes, I agree with you both pete and patroclus, I see the heartbreak in Ennis in that scene, he never wants to dissappoint Jack and is himself torn up at sending him off. It's so clear in the way he says "Jack" and then I think says "Jack" again, ah, so painful. I think in that previous post I was trying to defend Ennis from posts that declared him heartless for sending Jack away in that scene. I never saw it as cruel or heartless, but was thinking it might appear that way more in the film than the screenplay where the words "in agony" were explicitly used to describe him. All to say, yes. And enjoy your fourth viewing! I tell myself I won't go again, and then I find myself once again back on the mountain. . .
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"... Jack's mistake of thinking Ennis's divorce would finally allow them to really be together."
I'll ask these questions again to see if anybody else besides the few kind repondents who have shared their answer want to answer:
What motivates Ennis to inform Jack of his divorce? What reaction did he think Jack woyld have?
This is the one part of the movie where I can think of no rational explanation as to the actions of the characters. I have no clue as to why Ennis would send Jack a postcard telling him he had got divorced. And in the short story it is a phone call - even more perplexing! It just seems a really odd thing for Ennis to do. Sending a postcard when he and Jack were going to meet up in a month's time anyway? Making a phonecall? What would they have said during a phonecall? Surely if Ennis had phoned Jack about the divorce, Jack would have said "I'm on my way" or something similar. They wouldn't have not discussed it. And even with the postcard, I wondered if Ennis might have written about the divorce on a card which included their next meet up date. But that wouldn't explain why Jack suddenly gets in his truck and drives up there.
And the scene itself. Jack has driven 1200 miles, Ennis says he has the girls for the weekend so Jack turns round and drives 1200 miles back. I understand the passing truck has significance here, but I just think it's too much of a leap for me. A bit of a blip.
I think this is a pivotal scene in the film, because it is after this that their relationship starts to unravel somewhat because Ennis has to be more responsible towards his children what with maintenance payments and visits, but I think it was a very poor waying of showing this, both in the story and the film.
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Yes, I agree with you both pete and patroclus, I see the heartbreak in Ennis in that scene, he never wants to dissappoint Jack and is himself torn up at sending him off. It's so clear in the way he says "Jack" and then I think says "Jack" again, ah, so painful. I think in that previous post I was trying to defend Ennis from posts that declared him heartless for sending Jack away in that scene. I never saw it as cruel or heartless, but was thinking it might appear that way more in the film than the screenplay where the words "in agony" were explicitly used to describe him. All to say, yes. And enjoy your fourth viewing! I tell myself I won't go again, and then I find myself once again back on the mountain. . .
Thank you, bluehorse. You're very welcoming to me and my thoughts and I appreciate it. It's peculiarly thrilling, isn't it, when someone either voices something you've been thinking or responds warmly to something you've posted? It will be my last viewing at a cinema now. I'm in awe of the 'I've been 76 times' people but I need to say farewell to this little obsession soon. When the dvd comes out, however...
It is a great film, though, isn't it?
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"... Jack's mistake of thinking Ennis's divorce would finally allow them to really be together."
I'll ask these questions again to see if anybody else besides the few kind repondents who have shared their answer want to answer:
What motivates Ennis to inform Jack of his divorce? What reaction did he think Jack woyld have?
This is the one part of the movie where I can think of no rational explanation as to the actions of the characters. I have no clue as to why Ennis would send Jack a postcard telling him he had got divorced. And in the short story it is a phone call - even more perplexing! It just seems a really odd thing for Ennis to do. Sending a postcard when he and Jack were going to meet up in a month's time anyway? Making a phonecall? What would they have said during a phonecall? Surely if Ennis had phoned Jack about the divorce, Jack would have said "I'm on my way" or something similar. They wouldn't have not discussed it. And even with the postcard, I wondered if Ennis might have written about the divorce on a card which included their next meet up date. But that wouldn't explain why Jack suddenly gets in his truck and drives up there.
And the scene itself. Jack has driven 1200 miles, Ennis says he has the girls for the weekend so Jack turns round and drives 1200 miles back. I understand the passing truck has significance here, but I just think it's too much of a leap for me. A bit of a blip.
I think this is a pivotal scene in the film, because it is after this that their relationship starts to unravel somewhat because Ennis has to be more responsible towards his children what with maintenance payments and visits, but I think it was a very poor waying of showing this, both in the story and the film.
From the story i got the impression that Ennis called him because he was distraught about the divorce and maybe just needed someone to talk to.
Jason
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I hope this hasn't been already pointed out but here goes---in another thread someone posted some of the deleted scenes in the movie. Do you remember the scene where Ennis drops the girls off with Alma at the grocery store. Apparently there is a scene where you see him get in a truck with Jack when he leaves the store because Jack has made an impromptu visit. Thats the real reason he insists on Alma taking the girls. So, contrast that with Jack driving to Ennis after the divorce postcard comes. Again Ennis has the girls but turns Jack away this time. In the grocery scene he's ready to drop the girls for lust but when Jack makes himself available for commitment Ennis can't drop the girls off. What do you think? Don't you think they should have left the grocery store truck scene in?
Jason
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Thank you, bluehorse. You're very welcoming to me and my thoughts and I appreciate it. It's peculiarly thrilling, isn't it, when someone either voices something you've been thinking or responds warmly to something you've posted? It will be my last viewing at a cinema now. I'm in awe of the 'I've been 76 times' people but I need to say farewell to this little obsession soon. When the dvd comes out, however...
It is a great film, though, isn't it?
Yes, it is thrilling, and to be able to ruminate like this with others about a story, about fictional characters is extraordinary. It's unprecedented in my life. I've never had characters walk into my life like this and stay--demand to be there with such passionate intensity. I don't know what to make of it really. It's like we've all fallen madly in love with their love and so it's impossible to extricate ourselves from their tragedy. I know, the dvd! I might never leave the house again!
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Mr Wong..
It would have been nice to see but I read somewhere too that Ang Lee wanted us to think about what is going on in the story/movie instead of being too obvious. Mind you I would have love to see more of Jack and Ennis together.
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Mr Wong..
It would have been nice to see but I read somewhere too that Ang Lee wanted us to think about what is going on in the story/movie instead of being too obvious. Mind you I would have love to see more of Jack and Ennis together.
[/quote
Its brilliant the way the story and film leave so much for discussion.
I've never experienced anything quite like it.
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Do you remember the scene where Ennis drops the girls off with Alma at the grocery store. Apparently there is a scene where you see him get in a truck with Jack when he leaves the store because Jack has made an impromptu visit. Thats the real reason he insists on Alma taking the girls.
Jason
That blows my mind, changes the grocery store scene so much. I would have liked to have seen that zeal for Jack there, that Ennis would drop everything in a moment to take off with him, another combustion like the reunion scene. As it stands, the grocery scene just reinforces Ennis's work ethic and his domestic stress, the other way it would have shown how he prioritized Jack over family, work. So, yeah, I would have liked that scene as a counterpoint to the divorce/truck scene BUT it would have changed Ennis's character, made him more spontaneous, deceptive (to Alma), and obviously devoted to Jack and I think that would have dissipated the tension and lessened the sense of tragedy later on. Hmmmmmmm. I think we're stuck with what we got, the Ennis we got. :)
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BLUEHORSE... I think we got ourselves a B****H of an UNSATISFACTORY SITUATION :)
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I hope this hasn't been already pointed out but here goes---in another thread someone posted some of the deleted scenes in the movie. Do you remember the scene where Ennis drops the girls off with Alma at the grocery store. Apparently there is a scene where you see him get in a truck with Jack when he leaves the store because Jack has made an impromptu visit. Thats the real reason he insists on Alma taking the girls. So, contrast that with Jack driving to Ennis after the divorce postcard comes. Again Ennis has the girls but turns Jack away this time. In the grocery scene he's ready to drop the girls for lust but when Jack makes himself available for commitment Ennis can't drop the girls off. What do you think? Don't you think they should have left the grocery store truck scene in?
Jason
Jason:
Your chronology is wrong. The grocery store scene is set BEFORE the reunion. I'm pretty sure about this.
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By the way, there's a series of rather fine alternate-universe short stories penned by a young man taking off on the what-if scenario: WHAT IF Ennis had told Jack, "Wait in the cabin while I drop off the girls"?
Here's the link:
http://community.livejournal.com/wranglers/426334.html
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I hope this hasn't been already pointed out but here goes---in another thread someone posted some of the deleted scenes in the movie. Do you remember the scene where Ennis drops the girls off with Alma at the grocery store. Apparently there is a scene where you see him get in a truck with Jack when he leaves the store because Jack has made an impromptu visit. Thats the real reason he insists on Alma taking the girls. So, contrast that with Jack driving to Ennis after the divorce postcard comes. Again Ennis has the girls but turns Jack away this time. In the grocery scene he's ready to drop the girls for lust but when Jack makes himself available for commitment Ennis can't drop the girls off. What do you think? Don't you think they should have left the grocery store truck scene in?
Jason
Your chronology is wrong. The grocery store scene is set BEFORE the reunion. I'm pretty sure about this.
yeah it may be after they edited it they put that scene before the reunion . It wouldn't matter if they edited the truck scene out where they put it. Obviously if they kept the truck scene in it would have been placed after the reunion scene. For some reason it was changed from its original intent.
Jason
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I've seen the movie 4 times now and the hidden elements and themes just blow me away. When Ennis is at Monroe and Alma's house for Thanksgiving, his two girls ask him to tell them about his bronco-riding days. Ennis says something like, "Well, that's a short story, girls. Your daddy only got on a bronco one time -- he threw me off and I went flying through the air like an angel, but I didn't have any wings like you girls." While Ennis is telling this story, the girls are smiling back; Alma has a scowl on her face. Ennis is using the bronco story as a metaphor for his love and relationship with Jack -- Ennis has only fallen in love one time, he soared like an angel but he fell hard because he didn't have wings, or the innocence, of an angel. The girls asking their dad to tell the story, and their reaction, shows their acceptance for their dad the way he is; Alma's scowl tells you that she can never accept or understand Ennis.
After his bronco story, Ennis gets into a fight with Alma when she finally reveals that she knew about "Jack Nasty" all along. Ennis runs out of the house and into the next scene where he walks in front of truck and almost gets run over on the way to a bar. He gets into a horrific fight with the truck driver and the scene ends with Ennis being brutally kicked on the ground. The kick thrusts are filmed so that they have the same pace and cadence of the first tent sex scene -- almost like a ying-yang type of flashback -- and it reminds you of the Ennis's fear of being violently punished for revealing his love for another man.
The final touch is that the name of the bar is the "Black and Blue Eagle." Highlighting the journey Ennis has had soaring high with his love for Jack, but paying for it with emotional pain and suffering.
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To me that scene where Ennis dumps the girls with Alma at the store is put in as a counterbalance to the reunion where he just drops everything to be with Jack. On the one hand his boss wants him and he has no qualms about dumping the kids with Alma to go to work, even though she's at work herself. Compare that to when Alma questions Ennis going off suddenly with Jack - his boss owes him. It's put there to show the difference between what he will take from his boss when his family are involved to what he won't take when Jack is involved.
Whether or not the scene was originally there for another purpose and in another part of the film is pure speculation. I can't see Jack just appearing out of the blue and Ennis taking off with him for the day. What would be the point? And really what is the point of us trying to bring into the film scenes that aren't there?
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To me that scene where Ennis dumps the girls with Alma at the store is put in as a counterbalance to the reunion where he just drops everything to be with Jack. On the one hand his boss wants him and he has no qualms about dumping the kids with Alma to go to work, even though she's at work herself. Compare that to when Alma questions Ennis going off suddenly with Jack - his boss owes him. It's put there to show the difference between what he will take from his boss when his family are involved to what he won't take when Jack is involved.
Whether or not the scene was originally there for another purpose and in another part of the film is pure speculation. I can't see Jack just appearing out of the blue and Ennis taking off with him for the day. What would be the point? And really what is the point of us trying to bring into the film scenes that aren't there?
Quite agree Helen. It demonstrates the devotion from Ennis albeit probably subconsciously to the various aspects of his life...
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The final touch is that the name of the bar is the "Black and Blue Eagle." Highlighting the journey Ennis has had soaring high with his love for Jack, but paying for it with emotional pain and suffering.
Beautiful analysis of these key scenes...Thanks!
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I'm not sure if this is a Jack thing and belongs in the thread on Truck Scenes or if it's Jake and belongs in Jake's Eyelashes. Did anyone else notice Jack's tongue while he's talking to Ennis in the truck scene with the daughters? (Perhaps someone more knowledgeable could post a link to a video of this scene.) What do you think he's trying to communicate? Is it intentional? a nervous tick? I'm curious what you all think. I haven't seen a mention of this by anyone else, so maybe I'm just nuts!
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I'm not sure if this is a Jack thing and belongs in the thread on Truck Scenes or if it's Jake and belongs in Jake's Eyelashes. Did anyone else notice Jack's tongue while he's talking to Ennis in the truck scene with the daughters? (Perhaps someone more knowledgeable could post a link to a video of this scene.) What do you think he's trying to communicate? Is it intentional? a nervous tick? I'm curious what you all think. I haven't seen a mention of this by anyone else, so maybe I'm just nuts!
I was told the thing he does with his tongue is something Jake G does normally. Someone wrote in on another post that he had seen Jake G. do it in another movie. I don't know what you call it, could be a nervous tick or could be something he does when he is trying to control his temper. I think that was kind of cute and it really makes Jack Twist's character more human I think. Jake G is an awesome actor.
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Romeshvr, I couldn't agree more that it's very appealing. But since it happens more than once in that scene, I think it's sorta doubtful that they would let Jake get by with a habit of his own that maybe is not part of Jack's character.
Over on the "Eyelashes" thread, Mackie posted this thought, which I think may be on the right track. "I think it's the first sign that the tears are coming...that his emotion has changed for delight to despair."
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I thought that Jack's thanksgiving scene maybe said something about his relationship with Lureen. She smiles when Jack talks back to her father, but it seemed more of a smirk than a supportive smile to me. It made me think that was why she had married Jack - to irritate her father. What else did she see in him (apart from the fact that he was gorgeous)? It made me think back to the other scene when Bobby is a baby. As I remember it, Lureen seemed quite happy with her father's treatment of Jack. It's almost as if she took a perverse pleasure in it. (I was also impressed with the casting of baby Bobby, who did look exactly his grandfather!). Did anyone else see what I saw, or did I imagine it?
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After his bronco story, Ennis gets into a fight with Alma when she finally reveals that she knew about "Jack Nasty" all along. Ennis runs out of the house and into the next scene where he walks in front of truck and almost gets run over on the way to a bar. He gets into a horrific fight with the truck driver and the scene ends with Ennis being brutally kicked on the ground [...] and it reminds you of the Ennis's fear of being violently punished for revealing his love for another man.
Excellent point....During the 4th of July fireworks, before reuniting with Jake, Ennis feels strong and invincible...and he nails the biker to the ground. On Thanksgiving, once he learns the Alma "knows", Ennis feels vulnerable and this time he gets knocked down.
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I thought that Jack's thanksgiving scene maybe said something about his relationship with Lureen. She smiles when Jack talks back to her father, but it seemed more of a smirk than a supportive smile to me. It made me think that was why she had married Jack - to irritate her father. What else did she see in him (apart from the fact that he was gorgeous)? It made me think back to the other scene when Bobby is a baby. As I remember it, Lureen seemed quite happy with her father's treatment of Jack. It's almost as if she took a perverse pleasure in it. (I was also impressed with the casting of baby Bobby, who did look exactly his grandfather!). Did anyone else see what I saw, or did I imagine it?
Hum, I read Lureen's reaction in a different way. I thought that she looked rather annoyed when her father "stud duck" went to turn the television back on. When she smiled at Bobby, she seemed to be acknowledging that Jack was right.
I also didn't get the impression that Lureen had married Jack to get back at her father. She loved and respected her father. I'm not sure what she saw in Jack, but she certainly was the aggressor in the relationship. I felt that way about Alma, Lureen and Carrie -- they had to be aggressive -- Jack and Ennis were not going to make the first move, it wasn't in them to do that.
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I suppose I had been wondering all along what Lureen saw in Jack. I suppose I should have paid more attention to their sex scene together - presumably THAT was what she saw in him. But eventually it 'could be done over the phone'.
Thanks for your insights. I think I am putting to much of my own interpretation onto the scene - I really need to watch it again.
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I'm not sure if this is a Jack thing and belongs in the thread on Truck Scenes or if it's Jake and belongs in Jake's Eyelashes. Did anyone else notice Jack's tongue while he's talking to Ennis in the truck scene with the daughters? (Perhaps someone more knowledgeable could post a link to a video of this scene.) What do you think he's trying to communicate? Is it intentional? a nervous tick? I'm curious what you all think. I haven't seen a mention of this by anyone else, so maybe I'm just nuts!
I was told the thing he does with his tongue is something Jake G does normally. Someone wrote in on another post that he had seen Jake G. do it in another movie. I don't know what you call it, could be a nervous tick or could be something he does when he is trying to control his temper. I think that was kind of cute and it really makes Jack Twist's character more human I think. Jake G is an awesome actor.
What is he doing? I never noticed anything I'll have to look for this.
Did anyone notice in this scene that it's the first time that Alma Jr. looks like she knows when she looks over at Jack? Jack doesn't seem so hurt about the kids, I think he gets that. I think that what breaks his heart in this scene is when Ennis looks over at that white truck passing by to see who it is and if they can see over at them. It's Ennis' paranoia at Jacks simply being there even though he could be anyone, not his lover. Jack may seem like a doormat for putting up with this but he's really not. He loves Ennis and this is who Ennis is. Sometimes you have to take the thorns on your rose if you can't live without it.
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And Jack's tears as he drives away are over the culmination of 12 years of hope and anticipation of a final coming together....dashed to smithereens as J realizes that E will NEVER lose his fear.
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If the lip-licking is a Gyllenhaal trick he's used in other films, it's news to me; but I certainly noticed it in this scene! I thought it was a great way to show Jack's lust for Ennis -- a tick, by the way, we also see in the opening scenes when he's cruising Ennis.
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<<I suppose I had been wondering all along what Lureen saw in Jack. I suppose I should have paid more attention to their sex scene together - presumably THAT was what she saw in him. But eventually it 'could be done over the phone'>>
Poor Anne Hathaway/Lueen! At least two of her scenes were deleted, and they might have amplified our understanding of her relationship with Jack.
And, I think Jack is being underestimated. He has to do almost all the work of getting tutors for his son's reading problem (because Lureen is busy running her late father's business). He is shown letting his son steer the big piece of farm machinery. He stands up to his father-in-law in the Thanksgiving scene. I think Jack is a caring father, one who tries to instill a sense of direction and self-discipline in his son.
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Did anyone notice in this scene that it's the first time that Alma Jr. looks like she knows when she looks over at Jack?
Ah at last, I wondered if I was imagining this. Alma Jr. is a bit reserved in character compared to her sister, however I did detect some coolness in contrast to the easy warmth of her sister's greeting.
Does she suspect Jack's place in her father's life and his role in her parents' divorce. If so, it wouldn't be surprising if she felt a little ambivalent about him to say the least.
It would also explain her reaction to Cassie, even though the girls were concerned about Ennis being alone (Alma thanksgiving scene), she knew by then that only Jack was capable of filling this void in Ennis's life
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I apologize if this has already been discussed, but could someone please fill me in on the significance of why Jack danced with Randall's wife during that one scene? I still can't figure out what it "meant"...if anything.
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She practically ordered Jack to do it. Maybe she was going to put some moves on Randall herself?
I noticed in this scene that Jack didn't look as tired as he did at his last meeting with Ennis. I think the affair with Randall really stressed him out. I don't think he could have lasted much longer in the situation with Ennis as it was.
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Don't know if this scene has been discussed already...
I absolutely love the scene when Ennis receives Jack's first postcard (after the 4-year break).
Did anyone notice how Heath has Ennis moving his lips as if mumbling something to himself? It's completely undecipherable, but what I get from this is a little inkling of Ennis' elation and excitement about Jack. He thought he had lost Jack forever, but now Jack is about to come back into his life again. And of course, the reunion kiss was a "WHAM" :o -- wow, even I didn't anticipate Ennis' raw power when Jack finally arrives.
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I'm not sure if this is a Jack thing and belongs in the thread on Truck Scenes or if it's Jake and belongs in Jake's Eyelashes. Did anyone else notice Jack's tongue while he's talking to Ennis in the truck scene with the daughters? (Perhaps someone more knowledgeable could post a link to a video of this scene.) What do you think he's trying to communicate? Is it intentional? a nervous tick? I'm curious what you all think. I haven't seen a mention of this by anyone else, so maybe I'm just nuts!
I was told the thing he does with his tongue is something Jake G does normally. Someone wrote in on another post that he had seen Jake G. do it in another movie. I don't know what you call it, could be a nervous tick or could be something he does when he is trying to control his temper. I think that was kind of cute and it really makes Jack Twist's character more human I think. Jake G is an awesome actor.
I noticed he did it in the "No more beans!" scene and when Ennis was introducing him to Alma. I've seen it mentioned somewhere else too.
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This is a new topic in this thread, but we've been having a discussion about this in the "Editing" thread, and wanted to get more insight...
This is in regard to the well-known scene where Ennis shoots the deer, and Jack yells out his "Ooo -- ee! Yee -- ahhh!" and gives Ennis a congratulatory shove. When I saw it, that was the end of the scene -- the next scene showed them eating by the fire. Some people (but not all) have seen a version where Ennis shoves Jack back, knocks him down, and then Jack hits him back again -- all in a playful sort of way. The version I saw (four times at different theaters) did not have this part! What has the majority of everyone here seen??? Are there different versions? Or am I just confused????
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I saw the playful shoving back and forth in 3 different theaters (6 viewings total) in Northern NJ.
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This is a new topic in this thread, but we've been having a discussion about this in the "Editing" thread, and wanted to get more insight...
This is in regard to the well-known scene where Ennis shoots the deer, and Jack yells out his "Ooo -- ee! Yee -- ahhh!" and gives Ennis a congratulatory shove. When I saw it, that was the end of the scene -- the next scene showed them eating by the fire. Some people (but not all) have seen a version where Ennis shoves Jack back, knocks him down, and then Jack hits him back again -- all in a playful sort of way. The version I saw (four times at different theaters) did not have this part! What has the majority of everyone here seen??? Are there different versions? Or am I just confused????
What I have seen is Ennis give a playful (at least it looked playful to me) push and said he was tired of Jack's 'damn missing' Jack falls back when pushed and laughs. Then Jack leans in to say C'mon - Don't want the Fish and Game to catch us with no elk' - don't remember it he pushed him or not
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Hi Mary,
After the Elk comment Ennis pushes Jack back in a joking way. The scene goes by so fast you really have to pay attention.
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What I have seen is Ennis give a playful (at least it looked playful to me) push and said he was tired of Jack's 'damn missing' Jack falls back when pushed and laughs. Then Jack leans in to say C'mon - Don't want the Fish and Game to catch us with no elk' - don't remember it he pushed him or not
Yay! I could never figure out what he was saying here except for fish, which made no sense!
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Thanks -- it might just be me... I have the edited trailer clip so ingrained in my head that I may just be forgetting it, especially since it goes by so fast. Someone on the other thread said that they saw the same thing that I did in the UK, but the other version in the US (or vice versa). I guess it's really not all that important -- the scene speaks for itself. I was mainly just curious about editing and if there were any different versions out there.... Now it gives me a reason to see the film another time!! thanks
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Don't know if this scene has been discussed already...
I absolutely love the scene when Ennis receives Jack's first postcard (after the 4-year break).
Did anyone notice how Heath has Ennis moving his lips as if mumbling something to himself? It's completely undecipherable, but what I get from this is a little inkling of Ennis' elation and excitement about Jack. He thought he had lost Jack forever, but now Jack is about to come back into his life again. And of course, the reunion kiss was a "WHAM" :o -- wow, even I didn't anticipate Ennis' raw power when Jack finally arrives.
I noticed that too and assumed it was Ennis rereading the message on the card.
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I only understood what Jack said after reading the screen play. It's pretty hard to catch in the showings I've seen (14). It helps to understand the laws of the land regarding poaching I suppose? I don't believe this scene is in the book.
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She practically ordered Jack to do it. Maybe she was going to put some moves on Randall herself?
Could be or Jack was having some fun by annoying Lureen by dancing with LeShawn. Even better maybe Jack was pretending to be interested in LeShawn to distract his affair with Randall?
The whole party scene and the conversation outside the hall is puzzling for me. It can be interpreted in so many ways.
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I really just think it was something Jack did to annoy Lurene - the dancing that is!
As for Randall? Ugh - in this scene at least Jack blew him off big time. The only inkling we have of anything happening is from Jack's father - and I agree with many others who've posted that perhaps more was made of this than actually happened - but then - that much is a discussion for Jack's parents Topic :)!
Rob
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I really believed that Jack was having an affair with Randall, but now I'm really confused because I saw the movie again today and discovered something disturbing. It was 1978 when that scene took place! That means that although a lot of things would fit into Randall being the "one" Jack was seeing, he would have had to have been seeing him behind Ennis' back for 5 whole years!
I can't imagine Jack two-timing Ennis for that long. Poor Jack, maybe Randall was just a tease. Now that I've thought about it the conversation at the table and everything-it really makes more sense that he really was telling Ennis the truth about the foreman's wife.
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We naturally assume he went for Randall, because Jack was into Ennis. But what if, Jack got bored with Lureen? Jack, at least in the movie had a taste for pretty quality stuff. Just look at the opining scene, how well he was dressed compared to Ennis. If you noticed, Jack is moving up socially, he is talking about inflation, Pope, dressing better and even dancing better. Besides LeShawn looked much more prettier than Lureen :)
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We naturally assume he went for Randall, because Jack was into Ennis. But what if, Jack got bored with Lureen? Jack, at least in the movie had a taste for pretty quality stuff. Just look at the opining scene, how well he was dressed compared to Ennis. If you noticed, Jack is moving up socially, he is talking about inflation, Pope, dressing better and even dancing better. Besides LeShawn looked much more prettier than Lureen :)
She reminds me of a chihuahua - all she does is yip yip yip...non stop
Can't see it happening :D
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Did anyone pay attention to Jack and the tire-iron scene?
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I really believed that Jack was having an affair with Randall, but now I'm really confused because I saw the movie again today and discovered something disturbing. It was 1978 when that scene took place! That means that although a lot of things would fit into Randall being the "one" Jack was seeing, he would have had to have been seeing him behind Ennis' back for 5 whole years!
I think Jack and Randall messed around a few times and were friends.
Jack wanted a life with Ennis. If Ennis had ever gotten around to saying yes, Jack was ready. Jack liked to talk about ideas and plans. At their last meeting, Ennis was pushing him even farther away. When Jack went on to his parents' place, he couldn't bring himself to talk about Ennis, and in some conversation he mentioned this other fella this ... ranch foreman. But, like most of Jack's ideas, this one never came to pass either.
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Did anyone pay attention to Jack and the tire-iron scene?
You know something funny about that scene-it always seems like there are 2 different people getting beaten. I wonder if I'm putting it in my own head or if Ennis is visualizing Jack getting caught with someone.
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Did anyone pay attention to Jack and the tire-iron scene?
You know something funny about that scene-it always seems like there are 2 different people getting beaten. I wonder if I'm putting it in my own head or if Ennis is visualizing Jack getting caught with someone.
THERE ARE FRAME BY FRAME PHOTOS OF THE "TIRE IRON SCENE" ON A WEBPAGE.
ITS REALLY BRUTAL
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The scene does go by soo fast.
I was wondering if you noticed the train tracks or track?
I thought maybe there was some significance to that.
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I don't know where to post this because there are too many threads now. Has anyone else noticed Heath's tattoo on his left wrist? It's visible in the scene where he is putting on the watch and in the shirt scene in the closet. I thought that was kinda funny that they didn't catch that in editing.
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you also see his pierced ear in several scenes also
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I don't know where to post this because there are too many threads now. Has anyone else noticed Heath's tattoo on his left wrist? It's visible in the scene where he is putting on the watch and in the shirt scene in the closet. I thought that was kinda funny that they didn't catch that in editing.
You see it several other scenes as well. I think Ennis is supossed to have the tatoo as well since we do see it in so many places.
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you also see his pierced ear in several scenes also
I noticed that too. I wondered about it later... wondering whether actors really ought not to pierce ears if they want to be able to play all kinds of roles... but small thing in the scheme of things.
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I don't know where to post this because there are too many threads now. Has anyone else noticed Heath's tattoo on his left wrist? It's visible in the scene where he is putting on the watch and in the shirt scene in the closet. I thought that was kinda funny that they didn't catch that in editing.
You see it several other scenes as well. I think Ennis is supossed to have the tatoo as well since we do see it in so many places.
I noticed it's covered up in the closeup in the motel scene so I think it's one of those goofs.
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Jack wanted a life with Ennis. If Ennis had ever gotten around to saying yes, Jack was ready. Jack liked to talk about ideas and plans. At their last meeting, Ennis was pushing him even farther away. When Jack went on to his parents' place, he couldn't bring himself to talk about Ennis, and in some conversation he mentioned this other fella this ... ranch foreman. But, like most of Jack's ideas, this one never came to pass either.
In the movie did Jack's father say "ranch foreman" or "rancher friend"? The screenplay says, "some ranch neighber a his...". The reason I ask is because Jack may be referring to someone other than Randall. At the very least, Jack did not tell the old man Randall's name. If Jack would have told him, I think the old man would have repeated the name, just to twist the knife a litter more.
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Jack wanted a life with Ennis. If Ennis had ever gotten around to saying yes, Jack was ready. Jack liked to talk about ideas and plans. At their last meeting, Ennis was pushing him even farther away. When Jack went on to his parents' place, he couldn't bring himself to talk about Ennis, and in some conversation he mentioned this other fella this ... ranch foreman. But, like most of Jack's ideas, this one never came to pass either.
In the movie did Jack's father say "ranch foreman" or "rancher friend"? The screenplay says, "some ranch neighber a his...". The reason I ask is because Jack may be referring to someone other than Randall. At the very least, Jack did not tell the old man Randall's name. If Jack would have told him, I think the old man would have repeated the name, just to twist the knife a litter more.
He did say Randall. That's what made it odd to me.
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All Mr Twist Sr said was 'another one' was gonna come up, some ranch neighbour of his....
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In the book he says "some other one". In the movie he says, "gonna bring some other fella up here, some ranch neighbor of his in Texas."
Old man Twist never says Randall's name.
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In the book he says "some other one". In the movie he says, "gonna bring some other fella up here, some ranch neighbor of his in Texas."
Old man Twist never says Randall's name.
Like you said, the short story states "some other one". How to you interpret it? Do you think the other one was a man or a woman?
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I said it once and I'll say it again...Jack shows absolutely no interest in Randall. When Jack is interested in someone, he makes eye contact with them and usually flashes his teeth, as well. He averts his eyes when Randall tries to make contact at the table and doesn't look at him during the exchange outside. When Lureen says, "why don't husbands ever want to dance with their wives," is she intimating "because they'd rather dance with each other?" This is why I think Jack may be putting the blocks to Lashawn, like he tells Ennis, just to get back at Randall and Lureen for suspecting he's queer.
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Jack probably is less showy about his feelings because he's older, wiser, in the company of his wife, and in public. I think the feelings do show, in the same way that they show in the Brokeback scene when Ennis washes himself and Jack forces himself not to look.
The fact that Jack's father says that Jack's got another one that's gonna come up, help build a log cabin and run the ranch - if it was Lashawn, he wouldn't say "another one" right after talking about Ennis. He would say "a woman" or some other differentiation. And since he says Ennis was going to come up and help build a log cabin, it's clear that the second person he refers to is also a man. I can't see Lashawn hauling trees and building a log cabin! :D
[edit] Also, I think it definitely is Randall that Mr Twist is referring to. This script is so spare and concise, it doesn't add up that there would be some other random neighbor that we never see.
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[edit] Also, I think it definitely is Randall that Mr Twist is referring to. This script is so spare and concise, it doesn't add up that there would be some other random neighbor that we never see.
Except that all we have to go on is an abyssmal failure of a pass by Randall, and a vague statement from a father about a son he had no use for - and from the looks (and sounds) of it - didn't even like.
It doesn't add up to anyone actually.
Rob
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The fact that Jack's father says that Jack's got another one that's gonna come up, help build a log cabin and run the ranch - if it was Lashawn, he wouldn't say "another one" right after talking about Ennis. He would say "a woman" or some other differentiation. And since he says Ennis was going to come up and help build a log cabin, it's clear that the second person he refers to is also a man. I can't see Lashawn hauling trees and building a log cabin! :D
Also, I think it definitely is Randall that Mr Twist is referring to. This script is so spare and concise, it doesn't add up that there would be some other random neighbor that we never see.
I don't think Jack gave two hoots for Lashawn. If he was doing her it was just to stick it to Randall and Lureen in his passive aggressive way. And he never intended to bring ANYONE up to Lightning Flat, he'd just been blowing smoke up the old man's ass all these years. Can you imagine him bringing Ennis up there under the withering glare of that old geezer? Jack told Ennis when they first met that you couldn't please his old man, no way. I'm bringing someone to whip this place in shape is just Jack's old refrain to his old man's constant lament that he can't get any help up here.
If Ennis and Jack were going to be together, it would've been a place of their own. Jack had already figured a way to get a down payment.
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[edit] Also, I think it definitely is Randall that Mr Twist is referring to. This script is so spare and concise, it doesn't add up that there would be some other random neighbor that we never see.
Except that all we have to go on is an abyssmal failure of a pass by Randall, and a vague statement from a father about a son he had no use for - and from the looks (and sounds) of it - didn't even like.
It doesn't add up to anyone actually.
Rob
It didn't look like an "abyssmal failure of a pass" to me. I saw Jack's wheels turning, trying to figure the situation out and weighing his feelings for Ennis against this potential new suitor. And the first glance that Randall and he exchanged had a definite charge to it, even if Jack looked away because he was sitting next to their wives.
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I'm with kappadappa on this!
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It didn't look like an "abyssmal failure of a pass" to me. I saw Jack's wheels turning, trying to figure the situation out and weighing his feelings for Ennis against this potential new suitor. And the first glance that Randall and he exchanged had a definite charge to it, even if Jack looked away because he was sitting next to their wives.
Errr...Jack knows how to cruise - he was doing it since he was 19 (I think we can all agree that was what was happened when he and Ennis first met) If you call a charge looking at the man - seeing he's looking at you, immediately dropping your eyes and turning your head - then I suppose so. Having watched the scene multiple times now - I can't say this was a successful cruise (Although kudos to Randal for trying again) Perhaps if he had held the gaze for even a second? Maybe.
At this point I don't see much of anything going on except Randall taking a swing and a miss at pitches one and two (No knowing if pitch 3 connected though :) )
Rob
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In the book he says "some other one". In the movie he says, "gonna bring some other fella up here, some ranch neighbor of his in Texas."
Old man Twist never says Randall's name.
Pete, shoot me. Really. I don't mean to do this, but I can't stop myself...
I thought Jack's dad said, "gonna bring some Randall fella up here..."
**dodging firey darts launched from long suffering Pete.**
But just to show that I've learned my lesson, I will let myself be corrected on this one. I might have assumed it based on the idea that Randall was the one who propositioned him.
My goodness. Maybe a course in enunciation is in order for all these dialect driven actors, eh? ;D Who knew we could dispute this many lines in a movie with such sparse dialog?
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I said it once and I'll say it again...Jack shows absolutely no interest in Randall. When Jack is interested in someone, he makes eye contact with them and usually flashes his teeth, as well. He averts his eyes when Randall tries to make contact at the table and doesn't look at him during the exchange outside. When Lureen says, "why don't husbands ever want to dance with their wives," is she intimating "because they'd rather dance with each other?" This is why I think Jack may be putting the blocks to Lashawn, like he tells Ennis, just to get back at Randall and Lureen for suspecting he's queer.
I always thought at first it was definitely Randall but then when I realized it was 1978 during that scene-I doubt it now. I really do think it was the foremans wife and he probably did start something with another man and got caught but it had to have been closer to 1983 and didn't necessarily mean anything. It may have just been all talk about the divorce since he was upset that day after leaving Ennis at their final scene. The Randall scene may have been thrown in to show how frigid Jack and Lureen's marriage was and that Jack did have opportunities to leave Ennis that he didn't take. For all we know there could have been several "Randall" opportunities and that one trip to Mexico was Jack's only indiscretion-or Mexico was the only place he ever went to be with other men.
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In the book he says "some other one". In the movie he says, "gonna bring some other fella up here, some ranch neighbor of his in Texas."
Old man Twist never says Randall's name.
Pete, shoot me. Really. I don't mean to do this, but I can't stop myself...
I thought Jack's dad said, "gonna bring some Randall fella up here..."
**dodging firey darts launched from long suffering Pete.**
But just to show that I've learned my lesson, I will let myself be corrected on this one. I might have assumed it based on the idea that Randall was the one who propositioned him.
My goodness. Maybe a course in enunciation is in order for all these dialect driven actors, eh? ;D Who knew we could dispute this many lines in a movie with such sparse dialog?
LOL. I had a ggod chuckle at this one Alma. I am almost 100% certain Randall's name is never said by the old man. However....I'm the one who took it as matter of known fact that Ennis said "Roll your own" in the FNIT scene, and you see how that turned out. I've always heard "other fella" never "Randall fella." Shall we do a poll? :D
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In the book he says "some other one". In the movie he says, "gonna bring some other fella up here, some ranch neighbor of his in Texas."
Old man Twist never says Randall's name.
Pete, shoot me. Really. I don't mean to do this, but I can't stop myself...
I thought Jack's dad said, "gonna bring some Randall fella up here..."
**dodging firey darts launched from long suffering Pete.**
But just to show that I've learned my lesson, I will let myself be corrected on this one. I might have assumed it based on the idea that Randall was the one who propositioned him.
My goodness. Maybe a course in enunciation is in order for all these dialect driven actors, eh? ;D Who knew we could dispute this many lines in a movie with such sparse dialog?
LOL. I had a ggod chuckle at this one Alma. I am almost 100% certain Randall's name is never said by the old man. However....I'm the one who took it as matter of known fact that Ennis said "Roll your own" in the FNIT scene, and you see how that turned out. I've always heard "other fella" never "Randall fella." Shall we do a poll? :D
I just tried asking a sensible question regarding the "roll your own" and got shut out.
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It didn't look like an "abyssmal failure of a pass" to me. I saw Jack's wheels turning, trying to figure the situation out and weighing his feelings for Ennis against this potential new suitor. And the first glance that Randall and he exchanged had a definite charge to it, even if Jack looked away because he was sitting next to their wives.
I'm with kappadappa on this!
Me too! There's no definite proof, but I think he went with Randall, and I hope he did! He can truly deeply eternally love Ennis and also play a game of golf with somebody else once in a while, especially since Ennis makes such a point not to be around 49 weeks of the year. Jack's a healthier better rounded person than Ennis. He and Randall was campin' buddies, and I hope they enjoyed themselves.
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I said it once and I'll say it again...Jack shows absolutely no interest in Randall. When Jack is interested in someone, he makes eye contact with them and usually flashes his teeth, as well. He averts his eyes when Randall tries to make contact at the table and doesn't look at him during the exchange outside. When Lureen says, "why don't husbands ever want to dance with their wives," is she intimating "because they'd rather dance with each other?" This is why I think Jack may be putting the blocks to Lashawn, like he tells Ennis, just to get back at Randall and Lureen for suspecting he's queer.
I always thought at first it was definitely Randall but then when I realized it was 1978 during that scene-I doubt it now. I really do think it was the foremans wife and he probably did start something with another man and got caught but it had to have been closer to 1983 and didn't necessarily mean anything. It may have just been all talk about the divorce since he was upset that day after leaving Ennis at their final scene. The Randall scene may have been thrown in to show how frigid Jack and Lureen's marriage was and that Jack did have opportunities to leave Ennis that he didn't take. For all we know there could have been several "Randall" opportunities and that one trip to Mexico was Jack's only indiscretion-or Mexico was the only place he ever went to be with other men.
I can't imagine the creators of this film "throwing" anything in. For Jack to decide that he was capable of moving on to another man, he would need to have known the guy for a while. 5 years sounds about right. He's not going to throw away Ennis and a 20 year marriage for some man he just met. And if it really was a woman that Jack was having an affair with, why would the filmmakers never give a glimpse of that? We never see Jack flirting with or starting anything with another woman. But we are shown Randall. Nothing in this spare film is unimportant. They don't show us Jack saying yes or no to Randall because they want us, the audience, to be as shocked as Ennis when Mr. Twist reveals Jack's plan. It's brilliant screenwriting.
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To me that scene where Ennis dumps the girls with Alma at the store is put in as a counterbalance to the reunion where he just drops everything to be with Jack.
I heard that scene was originally intended to go with a following scene of him and Jack together again. But it works just as well to show Ennis's fear of his superiors, his employers, just as the first scene of the movie did.
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There was talk about this earlier, but it was determined that the film followed the screenplay exactly. In the screenplay, this scene occurs before Ennis and Jack have had their first reunion. It does seem logical that this could have happened after they had the reunion (and the viewer would be wondering if Ennis really is called to work, or it's just an excuse to be with Jack), but apparently this scene was not intended for that. It does of course introduce us to Monroe, who calms Alma down and looks out for her feelings -- something which she isn't sensing from Ennis.
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This is why I think Jack may be putting the blocks to Lashawn, like he tells Ennis, just to get back at Randall and Lureen for suspecting he's queer.
I always thought at first it was definitely Randall but then when I realized it was 1978 during that scene-I doubt it now. I really do think it was the foremans wife and he probably did start something with another man and got caught but it had to have been closer to 1983 and didn't necessarily mean anything. The Randall scene may have been thrown in to show how frigid Jack and Lureen's marriage was and that Jack did have opportunities to leave Ennis that he didn't take.
I can't imagine the creators of this film "throwing" anything in. For Jack to decide that he was capable of moving on to another man, he would need to have known the guy for a while. 5 years sounds about right. He's not going to throw away Ennis and a 20 year marriage for some man he just met. And if it really was a woman that Jack was having an affair with, why would the filmmakers never give a glimpse of that? We never see Jack flirting with or starting anything with another woman. But we are shown Randall. Nothing in this spare film is unimportant. They don't show us Jack saying yes or no to Randall because they want us, the audience, to be as shocked as Ennis when Mr. Twist reveals Jack's plan. It's brilliant screenwriting.
You didn't see Jack working his charms with Lashawn on the dance floor? He shows her the pearly whites, the dimples, and even throws in the matinee idol eyes. He wouldn't even look Randall in the eye. Plus, he told Ennis outright that he was sleeping with a ranch foreman's wife. Of course, he could've been lying, but maybe not. I prefer to think he would lie to his father before he would lie to Ennis. In the story, the remark by Old Man Twist about the ranch neighbor just reinforces Ennis' belief that the tire iron got Jack. As far as the filmakers adding yet another hetero-sex scene, I think it would've been overkill. Actually, there is some open space between what we are shown and what we try to believe in the film...
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I said it once and I'll say it again...Jack shows absolutely no interest in Randall. When Jack is interested in someone, he makes eye contact with them and usually flashes his teeth, as well. He averts his eyes when Randall tries to make contact at the table and doesn't look at him during the exchange outside. When Lureen says, "why don't husbands ever want to dance with their wives," is she intimating "because they'd rather dance with each other?" This is why I think Jack may be putting the blocks to Lashawn, like he tells Ennis, just to get back at Randall and Lureen for suspecting he's queer.
I always thought at first it was definitely Randall but then when I realized it was 1978 during that scene-I doubt it now. I really do think it was the foremans wife and he probably did start something with another man and got caught but it had to have been closer to 1983 and didn't necessarily mean anything. It may have just been all talk about the divorce since he was upset that day after leaving Ennis at their final scene. The Randall scene may have been thrown in to show how frigid Jack and Lureen's marriage was and that Jack did have opportunities to leave Ennis that he didn't take. For all we know there could have been several "Randall" opportunities and that one trip to Mexico was Jack's only indiscretion-or Mexico was the only place he ever went to be with other men.
Another very definate 'possibility' in this sceneario. I wonder if Jack could have kept his ongoing tryst a secret from Ennis for 5 years. While it may have been Randall that was the 'third wheel' - I certainly didn't see it in Jack that night in 1978 (Again - that's not to say it didn't happen.)
I'm still of the belief that Ennis made some off the cuff comment when visiting his parents - most likely very upset still from the trip - which Mr Twist then used to twist the dagger in Ennis' heart (Ooooo - I like that symbolism ;) ) just a little harder.
One other thing to consider - while granted it IS limited - Jack initiated(At least with the men). Whether cruising Ennis the first day or with the clown. I can't speak for anyone else - but if I was after someone - and got the type of reaction Randall got - I'd be backing down pretty quick (then again - we have no idea what happened after)
Rob
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I said it once and I'll say it again...Jack shows absolutely no interest in Randall. When Jack is interested in someone, he makes eye contact with them and usually flashes his teeth, as well. He averts his eyes when Randall tries to make contact at the table and doesn't look at him during the exchange outside. When Lureen says, "why don't husbands ever want to dance with their wives," is she intimating "because they'd rather dance with each other?" This is why I think Jack may be putting the blocks to Lashawn, like he tells Ennis, just to get back at Randall and Lureen for suspecting he's queer.
I always thought at first it was definitely Randall but then when I realized it was 1978 during that scene-I doubt it now. I really do think it was the foremans wife and he probably did start something with another man and got caught but it had to have been closer to 1983 and didn't necessarily mean anything. It may have just been all talk about the divorce since he was upset that day after leaving Ennis at their final scene. The Randall scene may have been thrown in to show how frigid Jack and Lureen's marriage was and that Jack did have opportunities to leave Ennis that he didn't take. For all we know there could have been several "Randall" opportunities and that one trip to Mexico was Jack's only indiscretion-or Mexico was the only place he ever went to be with other men.
Another very definite possibility in this scenario. I wonder if Jack could have kept his ongoing tryst a secret from Ennis for 5 years. While it may have been Randall that was the 'third wheel' - I certainly didn't see it in Jack that night in 1978 (Again - that's not to say it didn't happen.)
I'm still of the belief that Ennis made some off the cuff comment when visiting his parents - most likely very upset still from the trip - which Mr Twist then used to twist the dagger in Ennis' heart (Ooooo - I like that symbolism ;) ) just a little harder.
One other thing to consider - while granted it IS limited - Jack initiated(At least with the men). Whether cruising Ennis the first day or with the clown. I can't speak for anyone else - but if I was after someone - and got the type of reaction Randall got - I'd be backing down pretty quick (then again - we have no idea what happened after)
Rob
Another reason that I've come to doubt the whole "Randall" as the "one" scenario was something that hit me later in the movie. Jack looks extremely bored (they all do really) but Jack doesn't come from the same type of people as Lureen, Lashawn, and Randall. They are all talking about what colleges they went to or what sorority they pledged to. Later on when Jack tells Ennis he "misses him so much he can hardly stand it" I can imagine him seeing himself in another world when he is with Ennis. After all he grew up dirt poor on a ranch. He can be himself when he is with Ennis and not have to pretend to be someone who he is isn't all of the time.
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I don't know - I thought the line about powdering noses was a "code" or pick-up line to test Randall? (Which Randall responded to in the affirmative).
(Jack asks Randall someting about why women try to look good when they're going home with their husbands - the obvious answer being that they are doing it to make themselves look good for their husbands and what they might do at the end of the evening ;). Jack asking this question is implying that he isn't interested in sex with his wife. Randall answering implies the same thing. And then suggests a "fishing trip"! )
I may have read this scene wrong of course, but I'd be interested in other people's interpretations of the nose powdering comment.
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I don't know - I thought the line about powdering noses was a "code" or pick-up line to test Randall? (Which Randall responded to in the affirmative).
(Jack asks Randall someting about why women try to look good when they're going home with their husbands - the obvious answer being that they are doing it to make themselves look good for their husbands and what they might do at the end of the evening ;). Jack asking this question is implying that he isn't interested in sex with his wife. Randall answering implies the same thing. And then suggests a "fishing trip"! )
I may have read this scene wrong of course, but I'd be interested in other people's interpretations of the nose powdering comment.
Dese, I always laugh at that line. I agree with your interpretation, but I'm not sure if it is code or just two dumb men missing the implications of why women powder their noses just to go home, thereby leaving the interpretation to be made by the viewer. I also laugh when LaShawn tells Jack all innocently that Randall is not much good with fixing cars (or something close). Another broad hint for the viewer (and maybe Jack).
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I don't know - I thought the line about powdering noses was a "code" or pick-up line to test Randall? (Which Randall responded to in the affirmative).
(Jack asks Randall someting about why women try to look good when they're going home with their husbands - the obvious answer being that they are doing it to make themselves look good for their husbands and what they might do at the end of the evening ;). Jack asking this question is implying that he isn't interested in sex with his wife. Randall answering implies the same thing. And then suggests a "fishing trip"! )
I may have read this scene wrong of course, but I'd be interested in other people's interpretations of the nose powdering comment.
I know that "powdering your nose" sounds polite, but usually I really do have to pee before leaving a restaurant. I have no idea what the guy out there waiting would be thinking I'm really up to.
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Don't tell me you've never fixed your lipstick or applied a touch of powder to your nose...Guys just pee and hit the road! It remains a mystery to most men.
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This has been my interpretation of the "Randall scene" and the possibility of the "ranch neighbor from Texas" actually being Randall....
Of course we all know by now that in going from short story to screenplay, there have been several instances where a single line or two from the story have been developed (expertly, I might add) into 'full-fledged' characters (Cassie, for example) and side plot lines. I felt this about the Randall character... In the story, the first time there is any mention of Jack being with anyone else, it is when he and Ennis are together for the last time ("the wife of a rancher down the road"). Later in their last time together, he admits he's been to Mexico, when confronted by Ennis. So to me it is conceivable that he could have been with Randall on a few occasions too -- not necessarily right after they meet though. He tells Ennis at first that it was a woman, but I can believe he would lie to Ennis not to hurt his feelings. But he then eventually tells him he's been with other men when he admits to Mexico during their argument. He conceivably could have said that it was the rancher, not the wife, in that same breath. But the night before, when the mood was totally different, there would have been no reason to bring up Mexico or another man.
The instance in the story where Jack's father says "this spring he's got another one's goin a come up here with him and build a place..." was the line where the Randall character was developed from (to me) in the screen play. It kind of all falls into place -- Randall makes an obvious advance to Jack the night they meet, and although nothing may really happen between them for years (sexually), they are still in contact, and as Jack continues to get more and more frustrated with his and Ennis's situation (even before their final time together), he is torn between waiting for Ennis and moving on with someone else. And because the screenplay introduces us to this character, it seems that this most likely would be the person that Jack's father mentioned that Jack had spoken of. Otherwise, why would the Randall/Lashawn dance scene even been in the screenplay and film?
Despite Jack's trip(s) to Mexico and encounters with Randall, there is no doubt that it is Ennis who he is truly in love with. But sadly he also knows that he will never be able to be with him the way he wants. So maybe, the "ranch neighbor"/Randall is someone he could be happy with -- at least happier than he is with Lureen -- but never to the extent that he would be with Ennis.
I always figured it was his association with Randall (and possibly being caught with him, or people gossiping) that led to his death.
Anwway, that's my take on it -- feel free to tear it to shreds!
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Not sure this is right thread, but I get confused over all the ones out there.
I saw the movie for the 11th time today. One of the things that bugs the hell out of me
is when Jack redlines it to Wyoming after Ennis calls him (the book said he called Jack) about his divorce.
Poor Jack thought that meant someting and took off to be with Ennis. He was rebuffed.
Poor Jack said Okay, see you next month. Why the hell did Ennis call him and tell him anyway.
He should have known how Jack would take it. That is probably the scene that hits me the
hardest for poor Jack. I mean shit...... not sure I would have gone back !!!
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As for Randall? Ugh - in this scene at least Jack blew him off big time. The only inkling we have of anything happening is from Jack's father
Rob
That and the fact that Jack almost had an identical look of sorrow on his face when he bought that Mexican prostitute. He felt dispair and perhaps a species of shame at having to cheat on Ennis but the love of a man was something he "didn't hardly never get" so I'm thinking he let Randy tap that ass despite feeling awful about it's necessity.
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As for Randall? Ugh - in this scene at least Jack blew him off big time. The only inkling we have of anything happening is from Jack's father
Rob
That and the fact that Jack almost had an identical look of sorrow on his face when he bought that Mexican prostitute. He felt dispair and perhaps a species of shame at having to cheat on Ennis but the love of a man was something he "didn't hardly never get" so I'm thinking he let Randy tap that ass despite feeling awful about it's necessity.
That look of sorrow when Jack bought the Mexican prostitute was because Ennis had just blown him off completely. The only thing I saw during the Randall pass was boredom - or perhaps a bit of wishfull thinking that he was somewhere else.
Rob
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As for Randall? Ugh - in this scene at least Jack blew him off big time. The only inkling we have of anything happening is from Jack's father
Rob
That and the fact that Jack almost had an identical look of sorrow on his face when he bought that Mexican prostitute. He felt dispair and perhaps a species of shame at having to cheat on Ennis but the love of a man was something he "didn't hardly never get" so I'm thinking he let Randy tap that ass despite feeling awful about it's necessity.
That look of sorrow when Jack bought the Mexican prostitute was because Ennis had just blown him off completely. The only thing I saw during the Randall pass was boredom - or perhaps a bit of wishfull thinking that he was somewhere else.
Rob
Or nausea, but thats probably my own projecting what I see about Randall's character.
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I said it once and I'll say it again...Jack shows absolutely no interest in Randall. When Jack is interested in someone, he makes eye contact with them and usually flashes his teeth, as well. He averts his eyes when Randall tries to make contact at the table and doesn't look at him during the exchange outside. When Lureen says, "why don't husbands ever want to dance with their wives," is she intimating "because they'd rather dance with each other?" This is why I think Jack may be putting the blocks to Lashawn, like he tells Ennis, just to get back at Randall and Lureen for suspecting he's queer.
Great thread. As far as who’s doin’ who, Jake may preferred LaShawn, but I don’t think Jack had any interest in women other than his societal/family obligation, period. Several times, Jack indicated an almost flippant willingness to dump his family - no hard feelings - if only Ennis had been receptive. Jack was always more selfish (perhaps more realistic) and willing to cater to his own whims with much less regard for the effect on others. Ennis seemed more concerned with the ethics of it all and trying not to hurt others. He had an obviously warped vision of that ethic and it’s losing battle with Jack love. Consequently he damaged just about everyone with whom he was intimately involved, ultimately wreaking the greatest damage to himself. I think this is where the white hat/black hat came from.
The book answered a lot of questions for me. The screenplay juggled scenes around to make some points and fleshed out others with added scenes. But in the conversations J & E are having regarding who they are blocking it to, those are referenced in the book as the “little lies” they tell each other.
As far as Jack’s reaction to Randall on the bench, it seems to me like a case of the “er” and the “ee”. We only see Jack as the cruis”er” in his dealings with Ennis and then with the rodeo clown, both situations not involving other parties, particularly their wives. In the dance hall bench scene, Jack is the cruis”ee”. That position requires a different response and I think was totally unexpected. His reaction seems more like, “whoa this is something I didn’t see coming”.
Jack was certainly never sexually faithful to Ennis. He would have done the rodeo clown in a heartbeat, then there’s Mexico, and who knows what went on at those $100,000 tractor expos in Vegas.
At their final meeting, prior to the Randall proposition, when the truck pulls away, it seems like Jack finally lets go. That whole scenario had a different kind of climax and he has the epiphany that this is truly never going to work out. There is nothing outside of Brokeback and there never will be. And with Jack’s tendency toward self-preservation, he definitely has the emotional ability to move on without looking back if another option is presented. I would place my bets that he went on many a fishing trip with Randall where his line never touched the water.
Anyway, that’s my take.
I am new to the whole online discussion thing, never participated before, but all my friends avoid me since the movie and I’ve got to get this Brokeback out of me somehow.
Let me know if I'm breaking any of the rules.
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I am new to the whole online discussion thing, never participated before, but all my friends avoid me since the movie and I’ve got to get this Brokeback out of me somehow.
Welcome! I know--it's amazing to find others as enthralled (obsessed!) with the film/story, isn't it? My friends are very relieved! :D
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I am new to the whole online discussion thing, never participated before, but all my friends avoid me since the movie and I’ve got to get this Brokeback out of me somehow.
Believe me, I know. When it got around work that I had seen the movie 20 times, my coworkers started looking at me like I was from Mars. (Actually, I would be from Venus, named for the goddess of love.)
My reaction to the party scene has changed a lot with repeated viewings. I used to think it brought the narrative flow to a dead stop, as there didn't seem to be anything happening in the rather lengthy sequence other than the discreet come-on from Randall. (Who, for the record, is HOT...what are you all, blind?) But the more you see this scene, the more entertaining it becomes and the more possibilities you see in the characters and their relationships. The most baffling thing about the scene is Jack's "women powdering their noses" observation. Is this just banal small talk? Does he not really know it's a euphemism for taking a pee? Or is this meant to reveal that he finds women and their activities confounding and/or uninteresting? Randall seems just as disinterested and uses the opportunity to make an unflattering remark about his wife...to which Jack rather sweetly adds, "lively little gal."
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I am new to the whole online discussion thing, never participated before, but all my friends avoid me since the movie and I’ve got to get this Brokeback out of me somehow.
Believe me, I know. When it got around work that I had seen the movie 20 times, my coworkers started looking at me like I was from Mars. (Actually, I would be from Venus, named for the goddess of love.)
My reaction to the party scene has changed a lot with repeated viewings. I used to think it brought the narrative flow to a dead stop, as there didn't seem to be anything happening in the rather lengthy sequence other than the discreet come-on from Randall. (Who, for the record, is HOT...what are you all, blind?) But the more you see this scene, the more entertaining it becomes and the more possibilities you see in the characters and their relationships. The most baffling thing about the scene is Jack's "women powdering their noses" observation. Is this just banal small talk? Does he not really know it's a euphemism for taking a pee? Or is this meant to reveal that he finds women and their activities confounding and/or uninteresting? Randall seems just as disinterested and uses the opportunity to make an unflattering remark about his wife...to which Jack rather sweetly adds, "lively little gal."
I mentioned this before and one of the guys said they think that women do it to look good to go home and have sex. Therefore Randall can be making some offhand comment as to how he couldn't care less how Lashawn looks because he isn't interested in having sex with her when he gets home.
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My reaction to the party scene has changed a lot with repeated viewings. I used to think it brought the narrative flow to a dead stop, as there didn't seem to be anything happening in the rather lengthy sequence other than the discreet come-on from Randall. (Who, for the record, is HOT...what are you all, blind?) But the more you see this scene, the more entertaining it becomes and the more possibilities you see in the characters and their relationships. The most baffling thing about the scene is Jack's "women powdering their noses" observation. Is this just banal small talk? Does he not really know it's a euphemism for taking a pee? Or is this meant to reveal that he finds women and their activities confounding and/or uninteresting? Randall seems just as disinterested and uses the opportunity to make an unflattering remark about his wife...to which Jack rather sweetly adds, "lively little gal."
I mentioned this before and one of the guys said they think that women do it to look good to go home and have sex. Therefore Randall can be making some offhand comment as to how he couldn't care less how Lashawn looks because he isn't interested in having sex with her when he gets home.
Then there is the intriguing possibility that J is deftly testing Randall (who is one commenter here says "is nowhere near Jack's league") and that Randall drops the ball, but after a very direct glance from Jack during the silence that follows, he recovers it during the "Roy Taylor" exchange.
I cannot say enough about how powerful the final moments of that scene on the bench are. Both men plainly know something of the other's pain. The viewer feels that pain. And the frozen stares on both faces are maddeningly ambiguous. Brilliant acting, brilliant direction!
Thanks to all - great group!
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I am new to the whole online discussion thing, never participated before, but all my friends avoid me since the movie and I’ve got to get this Brokeback out of me somehow.
Believe me, I know. When it got around work that I had seen the movie 20 times, my coworkers started looking at me like I was from Mars. (Actually, I would be from Venus, named for the goddess of love.)
My reaction to the party scene has changed a lot with repeated viewings. I used to think it brought the narrative flow to a dead stop, as there didn't seem to be anything happening in the rather lengthy sequence other than the discreet come-on from Randall. (Who, for the record, is HOT...what are you all, blind?) But the more you see this scene, the more entertaining it becomes and the more possibilities you see in the characters and their relationships. The most baffling thing about the scene is Jack's "women powdering their noses" observation. Is this just banal small talk? Does he not really know it's a euphemism for taking a pee? Or is this meant to reveal that he finds women and their activities confounding and/or uninteresting? Randall seems just as disinterested and uses the opportunity to make an unflattering remark about his wife...to which Jack rather sweetly adds, "lively little gal."
Riskey, women powder their nose before going home to look good for their men (or at least we hope). The fact that this is lost on Jack and Randall speak volumes. I always have a little laugh here. It might be Jack testing Randall, or it could be they are both clueless. It is a great line, IMO, and very subtle. It doesn't smack you across the head as much as when Lashawn tells Jack that Randall hasn't every been good at fixing cars.
The Jack in this scene with all the college graduates and big money is so very different than the Jack we see with Ennis. IMO, the scene shows us two important things: that Jack has little knowledge of women even after being married to one for fourteen years; and this world of sororities, college football games, big hats, and Marlboro's is not the one Jack wants to inhabit. He'd rather be herding sheep on BBM. (Of course, in the end we also see him get hit on by Randall which connects some dots later on.)
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In the Structure thread (thanks PeteInPortland for directing me there), there is an insightful post to the effect that in both Thanksgiving scenes "both men are depicted as strangers among their own families."
BTW, am I the only one who gets a bit warm inside when E threatens to "make Monroe eat the fuckin floor"? Perhaps I should be sharing this with a shrink instead of this esteemed group but, to me, this is a very compelling image.
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I am new to the whole online discussion thing, never participated before, but all my friends avoid me since the movie and I’ve got to get this Brokeback out of me somehow.
Believe me, I know. When it got around work that I had seen the movie 20 times, my coworkers started looking at me like I was from Mars. (Actually, I would be from Venus, named for the goddess of love.)
My reaction to the party scene has changed a lot with repeated viewings. I used to think it brought the narrative flow to a dead stop, as there didn't seem to be anything happening in the rather lengthy sequence other than the discreet come-on from Randall. (Who, for the record, is HOT...what are you all, blind?) But the more you see this scene, the more entertaining it becomes and the more possibilities you see in the characters and their relationships. The most baffling thing about the scene is Jack's "women powdering their noses" observation. Is this just banal small talk? Does he not really know it's a euphemism for taking a pee? Or is this meant to reveal that he finds women and their activities confounding and/or uninteresting? Randall seems just as disinterested and uses the opportunity to make an unflattering remark about his wife...to which Jack rather sweetly adds, "lively little gal."
Riskey, women powder their nose before going home to look good for their men (or at least we hope). The fact that this is lost on Jack and Randall speak volumes. I always have a little laugh here. It might be Jack testing Randall, or it could be they are both clueless. It is a great line, IMO, and very subtle. It doesn't smack you across the head as much as when Lashawn tells Jack that Randall hasn't every been good at fixing cars.
The Jack in this scene with all the college graduates and big money is so very different than the Jack we see with Ennis. IMO, the scene shows us two important things: that Jack has little knowledge of women even after being married to one for fourteen years; and this world of sororities, college football games, big hats, and Marlboro's is not the one Jack wants to inhabit. He'd rather be herding sheep on BBM. (Of course, in the end we also see him get hit on by Randall which connects some dots later on.)
I agree with this. Jack does not belong in this world and still feels out of place after all these years. Not that his in-laws have made him feel welcome.
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In the Structure thread (thanks PeteInPortland for directing me there), there is an insightful post to the effect that in both Thanksgiving scenes "both men are depicted as strangers among their own families."
BTW, am I the only one who gets a bit warm inside when E threatens to "make Monroe eat the fuckin floor"? Perhaps I should be sharing this with a shrink instead of this esteemed group but, to me, this is a very compelling image.
Ennis repression has always turned to aggression when threatened. This is only our second chance to see it, the first being the fireworks scene. It's his deepest fear-being outed or being killed for it.
What I find more interesting is that when he leaves and attacks the man in the truck you notice that at one point he just gives up. He no longer fights back and just lets himself get beaten. It's his self-punishment for not only what has just taken place but more importantly for being who he is. He is letting himself get beaten because Alma has pointed out to him that he is doing something "wrong" and for Ennis the conflict to live with who he is and who he loves is always going to be a powder keg beneath the surface.
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I read in one of the interviews that that scene where he gets the crap beat out of him was the last scene Heath filmed and that he wanted it to be real, Ennis giving up and getting beat that way and so he instructed the stunt man to really give it to him. I'm not sure which interview or magazine that was in. I'll try to check.
There is also the story about his staying after the shooting that day with Roberta Maxwell to get those scenes perfect. He seems to have really wanted to make the film work.
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PeteIP, I felt the same way about the "powder her nose" lines. It's perfect, so sublte.
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that Randall hasn't every been good at fixing cars.
The Jack in this scene with all the college graduates and big money is so very different than the Jack we see with Ennis. IMO, the scene shows us two important things: that Jack has little knowledge of women even after being married to one for fourteen years; and this world of sororities, college football games, big hats, and Marlboro's is not the one Jack wants to inhabit. He'd rather be herding sheep on BBM. (Of course, in the end we also see him get hit on by Randall which connects some dots later on.)
I see that too, pete, and I also see his getting up to dance with LaShawn as a cover for all that discomfort, and feeling out of place. He seems to look more confident as he's dancing with her, even though his mind is a million miles away..maybe it's just me thinking how hot Jake looked in black leather, but I kind of think that even though Jack might feel intellectually out of his league, he still knows he looks damn good and uses the dance as a means to strut his stuff, not for the purpose of getting Randall's attention, but merely to give his own ego a badly-needed boost...
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I think that there is so much going on here in this scene.
Lureen's comment about "yeah why is that" is some attempt by her to embarrass Jack (not dancing with wife means husband is gay sounds very Texan for that time in our cultural advancement as a civilization) which, in his open-hearted, sweet-spirited way, Jack overcomes by asking LaShawn to dance...but it is also a way to separate himself from a connection he is feeling with Randall that he doesn't want to explore...yet.
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It's too bad Anne's scenes were cut and we didn't get to see more of her acting.
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It's too bad Anne's scenes were cut and we didn't get to see more of her acting.
See, I just can't decide...we all want more of Ennis and Jack, naked and humping each other, we all want more of Jack and Lureen so we could see if she actually knew he was gay, we all want more of Ennis and Alma to understand the unraveling of their marriage, and most of all, we all want more of Ennis to know if he just slumped his chest in until he no longer existed or if he picked up, his living memory of Jack in his dreams and bed, and marched on through life as the father and grandfather he was destined to be.
But that is what Brokeback Mountain is to me...I want more, I don't get it, and I leave, that unfillment immediately transporting me to these characters and the love and respect I have for them.
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It's too bad Anne's scenes were cut and we didn't get to see more of her acting.
Really? Do we know what was cut? Hopefully we'll see them on the DVD.
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One of my favorite scenes is when Jack returns to see if there's any work up on Brokeback the next summer (his third year). The expression on Jack's face during the 2 brief close-ups when Aguirre rejects him is devastation and shame and its all so very very very saddening. Makes you want to comfort Jack so badly !!!
One interesting thing about this dialog is the ability of different people to see different things in the same image. Here is what cythera4 said about the same scene in Reply 48 - Character Analysis of J Twist:
One other genius Jake moment--the scene when Aguirre tells him off, that second summer when he comes back looking for work. Clearly, he's wounded and scared when he realizes Aguirre knows what he is and what happened between him and Ennis on Brokeback, but when Aguirre says, "now get the hell out of my trailer," there's this marvelous little pause, as Jack gathers himself, and then he lifts his chin and nods. This is a pre-Stonewall moment of gay pride, in my opinion. He's saying: okay, you caught me out, fine, but I'm not ashamed, so fuck you, I'm walking out of here with my head up. It's really extraordinary
I happen to be in the cythera4's camp, believing that J does not display or feel shame (and, as such, is the perfect foil for E), but you are in very good company on this. Others have cited this scene as evidence that Jack feels shame. I will agree that JG's facial gestures are maddeningly ambiguous. Pre-Stonewall pride or wishful thinking on our part? Thanks for another perspective.
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we all want more of Jack and Lureen so we could see if she actually knew he was gay,
Funny enough, when the cast was on Oprah and she asked if Lureen knew Jack was gay, Anne said, yes, she did and Jake said, no, she didn't. So, if she's playing like she knows, and he's playing it like she doesn't know, no wonder the result is so ambiguous. Just like life.
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HELP PLEASE !
What was said in the bar when Jack sits with the guy (I think) that saved him from the bucking bull ?The guy wont accept a drink and goes off to the pool table,
talks to the others and they glance back .. like .. "that queer made a pass at me .." kind-of mode ?
Can anyone shed any light ?
Ta Rich :)
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HELP PLEASE !
What was said in the bar when Jack sits with the guy (I think) that saved him from the bucking bull ?The guy wont accept a drink and goes off to the pool table,
talks to the others and they glance back .. like .. "that queer made a pass at me .." kind-of mode ?
Can anyone shed any light ?
Ta Rich :)
I read of the deleted scene where the rodeo clown and his buddies harass Jack outside the bar.
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In my viewing yesterday, also, .. the scene where J has driven 14hrs due E's divorce ....
his face when he realises he misread the letter/card .. I have lived that heart sinking feeling, it seems, so many times.
It was portrayed so acutely well in this scene, with such sparseness of movement or word .. quite wonderful.
Rich
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One of my favorite scenes is when Jack returns to see if there's any work up on Brokeback the next summer (his third year). The expression on Jack's face during the 2 brief close-ups when Aguirre rejects him is devastation and shame and its all so very very very saddening. Makes you want to comfort Jack so badly !!!
One interesting thing about this dialog is the ability of different people to see different things in the same image. Here is what cythera4 said about the same scene in Reply 48 - Character Analysis of J Twist:
One other genius Jake moment--the scene when Aguirre tells him off, that second summer when he comes back looking for work. Clearly, he's wounded and scared when he realizes Aguirre knows what he is and what happened between him and Ennis on Brokeback, but when Aguirre says, "now get the hell out of my trailer," there's this marvelous little pause, as Jack gathers himself, and then he lifts his chin and nods. This is a pre-Stonewall moment of gay pride, in my opinion. He's saying: okay, you caught me out, fine, but I'm not ashamed, so fuck you, I'm walking out of here with my head up. It's really extraordinary
I noticed he slammed the door on his way out also.
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The most baffling thing about the scene is Jack's "women powdering their noses" observation. Is this just banal small talk? Does he not really know it's a euphemism for taking a pee? Or is this meant to reveal that he finds women and their activities confounding and/or uninteresting?
I'd go for the small talk/scoping out interpretation. I've often heard men express bewilderment that women go to the restroom in packs. ;D
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It does seem logical that this could have happened after they had the reunion (and the viewer would be wondering if Ennis really is called to work, or it's just an excuse to be with Jack), but apparently this scene was not intended for that. It does of course introduce us to Monroe, who calms Alma down and looks out for her feelings -- something which she isn't sensing from Ennis.
I'm one of the few who really sympathizes with the Monroe character. The scene makes it obvious that he's been in love with Alma all along. And when he does manage to marry her, he has two stepdaughters who are old enough to be considerably attached to their father (as opposed to two young children or babies, who will grow up thinking of him as "Dad"). Not to mention the fact that marrying someone with a lot of bitter emotional baggage from an earlier marriage is no day at the beach.
The scene made perfect sense to me as a pre-reunion scene - Ennis is trying to do everything he thinks he's expected to do, but is finding it overwhelming and doesn't always handle things well.
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Don't tell me you've never fixed your lipstick or applied a touch of powder to your nose...Guys just pee and hit the road! It remains a mystery to most men.
I'm going to be the gender turncoat here -
Women often go to the ladies room to "powder their noses" knowing that this is the one place they can dish about the men without being overheard. Plus compare notes about the evening, check the ol' pantyhose for runs, etc. There's no reason why Jack and Randall wouldn't be as clueless about that as most.... ::)
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I thought that Jack's thanksgiving scene maybe said something about his relationship with Lureen. She smiles when Jack talks back to her father, but it seemed more of a smirk than a supportive smile to me. It made me think that was why she had married Jack - to irritate her father. What else did she see in him (apart from the fact that he was gorgeous)? It made me think back to the other scene when Bobby is a baby. As I remember it, Lureen seemed quite happy with her father's treatment of Jack. It's almost as if she took a perverse pleasure in it. (I was also impressed with the casting of baby Bobby, who did look exactly his grandfather!). Did anyone else see what I saw, or did I imagine it?
Those were my interpretations exactly. I had far less sympathy for Lureen than for Alma, as Lureen seemed to treat her husband like a fifth wheel almost immediately, opting to remain "Daddy's Little Girl." That she would allow her father to shut her husband out when they've just had their first baby is something that simply can't be rationalized away - it's such a totally callous and unloving thing to do. And my impression in the Thanksgiving scene was that she sometimes did find the tension between her husband and father entertaining in a way.
The resemblance of Bobbie to his grandfather in that scene is obvious; though I don't think that's a suggestion of incest (a la Chinatown) but rather that Lureen and her family will always be the biggest influence on Jack's son, not Jack.
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Don't tell me you've never fixed your lipstick or applied a touch of powder to your nose...Guys just pee and hit the road! It remains a mystery to most men.
I'm going to be the gender turncoat here -
Women often go to the ladies room to "powder their noses" knowing that this is the one place they can dish about the men without being overheard. Plus compare notes about the evening, check the ol' pantyhose for runs, etc. There's no reason why Jack and Randall wouldn't be as clueless about that as most.... ::)
Can I just blow whatever ideas you guys have about women and toilets in general out of the water? First, in high school we cut classes to smoke in the girls room. Yeah, there were more than one of us at a time. Since then I cannot specifically recall wanting to to the bathroom with another woman except as a matter of convenience to all involved. I really don't like listening to anyone else peeing nor to I find it comfortable to pee in the presence of others. If I put touch-up make up on it's because it's worn off from sweating or eating and I look like some half-baked bride of Frankenstein with cracked lips and big pores. If I can REALLY get away with it I'll avoid the damn public bathroom altogether and not take my chances with any foreign odors, missing paper, clogged toilets and the damned panty hose-not touching the seat-half squat. Then there is the final flushing the handle with the foot, washing with no towels and trying to get out without touching the door.
Now for you guys it might be a zip, drip, and go so our process is a mystery but believe me, no woman actually wants to go to the public restroom.
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Then there is the final flushing the handle with the foot, washing with no towels and trying to get out without touching the door.
That's so funny - so it's not just me! Elbows sometimes work for the door handles, by the way. I dread the day when I'm too old and inflexible to use the foot flush technique.
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Hey guys...!!!!
something Ive been thinking about... The scene in Alma and Monroes kitchen where Alma is telling Ennis that she got in to his Kreel case and "those lines had never touched water in their lives..."
...now how does that make sense. On the week long trips they took, they had to have done SOME fishing. For food or to pass the time otherwise. If they hunted more for food then wouldnt it seem natural for them to make them "hunting trips" instead of fishing trips and just forget the fishing equipment.
I mean, they could have ridden around horseback in the mountains some but the point of their getting together is to spend time together and t hat time passes best when doing something. I mean if they were just one day excursions and they took those precious few hours to "be together", thats one thing. But a whole week!!!???
I dont see how that makes much sense. Comments!!??
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I mean, they could have ridden around horseback in the mountains some but the point of their getting together is to spend time together and t hat time passes best when doing something. I mean if they were just one day excursions and they took those precious few hours to "be together", thats one thing. But a whole week!!!???
I dont see how that makes much sense. Comments!!??
Hmm, what could they have done to pass the time - alone together - in that tent... I'm racking my brains....
No, seriously, that crossed my mind too - why not do a bit of fishing while they had all the stuff there? They did do some hunting, didn't they?
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I mean, they could have ridden around horseback in the mountains some but the point of their getting together is to spend time together and t hat time passes best when doing something. I mean if they were just one day excursions and they took those precious few hours to "be together", thats one thing. But a whole week!!!???
I dont see how that makes much sense. Comments!!??
Hmm, what could they have done to pass the time - alone together - in that tent... I'm racking my brains....
No, seriously, that crossed my mind too - why not do a bit of fishing while they had all the stuff there? They did do some hunting, didn't they?
I didn't get that either since I like to fish myself. Maybe Jack had better equipment.
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Maybe Jack had better equipment.
Now that is a debate that will keep this group busy for quite a while!
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Fishing's for queer ? They ain't no queer, remember ;)
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The only kind of trout they were interested in were those trouser trout.
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The only kind of trout they were interested in were those trouser trout.
"Fly fishing"
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Riskey, women powder their nose before going home to look good for their men (or at least we hope). The fact that this is lost on Jack and Randall speak volumes. I always have a little laugh here. It might be Jack testing Randall, or it could be they are both clueless.
It seems more likely to me that it's not lost on Jack or Randall. Jack finds Randall to be a fuzzy little cub, and he says this to give Randall an opening. Randall gets it, and says yes. Jack has some inner conflict about it, but he's glad to find a friend. Hafta wait and see where it all goes from there of course.
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It didn't look like an "abyssmal failure of a pass" to me. I saw Jack's wheels turning, trying to figure the situation out and weighing his feelings for Ennis against this potential new suitor. And the first glance that Randall and he exchanged had a definite charge to it, even if Jack looked away because he was sitting next to their wives.
Errr...Jack knows how to cruise - he was doing it since he was 19 (I think we can all agree that was what was happened when he and Ennis first met) If you call a charge looking at the man - seeing he's looking at you, immediately dropping your eyes and turning your head - then I suppose so. Having watched the scene multiple times now - I can't say this was a successful cruise (Although kudos to Randal for trying again) Perhaps if he had held the gaze for even a second? Maybe.
At this point I don't see much of anything going on except Randall taking a swing and a miss at pitches one and two (No knowing if pitch 3 connected though :) )
Rob
When that scene came on people chuckled quietly...we know flirting/cruising when we see it although I was not sure until I'd seen it 479023974993874 more times and put that scene together with the shave scene. I appreciate all the knowledge I'm gaining here. When I go back again for the 30997203975093749th time I can look for all the points raised that I missed :)
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One of my favorite scenes is when Jack returns to see if there's any work up on Brokeback the next summer (his third year). The expression on Jack's face during the 2 brief close-ups when Aguirre rejects him is devastation and shame and its all so very very very saddening. Makes you want to comfort Jack so badly !!!
So did I..want to comfort him. I feel so possessive towards them and their happiness...I can't believe how much I want them to be with each other. Anyway, Jack looks so much like my son when he's done something wrong, is caught and leaves my presence... ASAP. I didn't see shame or guilt in his actions or his attitude when his boss told him what he'd seen that summer, just an acknowledgment, with a slight movement of his head as if to say..." yeah, you're right...we did that...I'm off.
I also thought he was awful brave to ask about Ennis but then he didn't know that his boss had seen them making love.
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First, in high school we cut classes to smoke in the girls room. Yeah, there were more than one of us at a time. Since then I cannot specifically recall wanting to to the bathroom with another woman except as a matter of convenience to all involved. I really don't like listening to anyone else peeing nor to I find it comfortable to pee in the presence of others. If I put touch-up make up on it's because it's worn off from sweating or eating and I look like some half-baked bride of Frankenstein with cracked lips and big pores. If I can REALLY get away with it I'll avoid the damn public bathroom altogether and not take my chances with any foreign odors, missing paper, clogged toilets and the damned panty hose-not touching the seat-half squat. Then there is the final flushing the handle with the foot, washing with no towels and trying to get out without touching the door.
Now for you guys it might be a zip, drip, and go so our process is a mystery but believe me, no woman actually wants to go to the public restroom.
Wow, I never had such intense feelings about restrooms, nor do women I know. Unless it's really dirty, a restroom is just that, not a chamber of horrors. And flushing a toilet with your FOOT and trying not to touch the door? God's nightgown, how obsessive-compulsive can you get?
Have you always had this kind of phobia? And have you never done any "dishing" in the ladies' room?
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On my xxth viewing (actual number withheld to avoid psychiatric confinement) I finally heard Jimbo say to J, "Save your money for your next entry fee, cowboy." This must be a cruel pun, isn't it? Then I thought about E saying he rodeo'd when he had the entry fee in his pocket. Maybe cowboys are preoccupied with (rodeo) entry fees; though this is pretty suspicious stuff, particularly in the context of some of the other entendre we discuss here (powder their noses, Old Rose, ...). What do you all think?
Then, as has been mentioned, E's apartment in Riverton has that ever-naughty "Entrance in Front" sign.
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I've been thinking about the scene when Ennis gets his postcard back stamped "deceased". The camera swings around behind him revealing that he's standing in front of J.T.'s Place. It was always there, across from the post office he's been coming out of for twenty years, only now there's nobody home, nor will there ever be again. Guess that's why he never goes back to the post office again. We find out later he's got a mailbox now. Wonder what he hopes to find inside?
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Not to be disrespectful to the short-story, the movie and other commentators, I thought what if a card from Jack shows up from Mexico? Like in the movie Shawshank Redemption.
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Not to be disrespectful to the short-story, the movie and other commentators, I thought what if a card from Jack shows up from Mexico? Like in the movie Shawshank Redemption.
Then we'd have a whole new movie
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Have you always had this kind of phobia? And have you never done any "dishing" in the ladies' room?
Oh go on then, I give up. How does one "dish"?
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Does anyone know what actual mountain is depicted on the first postcard? BTW, it does not look very much like the one on E's closet door.
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I have been wondering about this sentence in the scene where Ennis repairs roads : "strong backs, weak minds", especially considering the title of the movie.
Is it an indication by the authors that Ennis (and jack ?) doesn't have the mental / intellectual means to escape his situation ?
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Does anyone know what actual mountain is depicted on the first postcard? BTW, it does not look very much like the one on E's closet door.
The postcard says that it's Signal Peak in Wyoming. It's probably near where the town Signal used to be. What I wonder is how did Jack get the card to Ennis? He says he "heard" he was in Riverton. How would he hear this down in Texas? Maybe he sent postcards in care of General Delivery to every town he could think of in Wyoming, hoping one stab in the dark would hit its mark? One mistake in the film is when Ennis sends his "you bet" postcard, he doesn't include his address. How did Jack know which house (laundromat) to go to when he got there?
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Does anyone know what actual mountain is depicted on the first postcard? BTW, it does not look very much like the one on E's closet door.
Also to add: the one on Ennis' door is Brokeback Mountain. It's the same mountain scene from the first part of the film just before the camera pans down to Jack singing. In "Book the Screenplay," that shot and the postcard on Ennis' door are side by side.
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Does anyone know what actual mountain is depicted on the first postcard? BTW, it does not look very much like the one on E's closet door.
The postcard says that it's Signal Peak in Wyoming. It's probably near where the town Signal used to be. What I wonder is how did Jack get the card to Ennis? He says he "heard" he was in Riverton. How would he hear this down in Texas? Maybe he sent postcards in care of General Delivery to every town he could think of in Wyoming, hoping one stab in the dark would hit its mark? One mistake in the film is when Ennis sends his "you bet" postcard, he doesn't include his address. How did Jack know which house (laundromat) to go to when he got there?
Oh there were a few little mistakes, just that was quite a noticable one wasn't it? I was likke "WTF?" the first time then I realized there could have been another post card in between. The would have been another postcard to follow-up with the exact date and everything so he could have sent the addie then.
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I have been wondering about this sentence in the scene where Ennis repairs roads : "strong backs, weak minds", especially considering the title of the movie.
The line before that one is something like, "My old lady says I'm too old to be breakin my back..." My take on this is that it is supposed to underscore for us the tough, unfulfilling life E is leading vis a vis his dreams of idyllic Brokeback Mountain.
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I have been wondering about this sentence in the scene where Ennis repairs roads : "strong backs, weak minds", especially considering the title of the movie.
The line before that one is something like, "My old lady says I'm too old to be breakin my back..." My take on this is that it is supposed to underscore for us the tough, unfulfilling life E is leading vis a vis his dreams of idyllic Brokeback Mountain.
I think it also serves to show how hard he works for his family for so little in return, and how an off-hand comment like that might get Ennis to thinking about what it was like back on the mountain, so that he must live with this frustration inside.
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Does anyone know what actual mountain is depicted on the first postcard? BTW, it does not look very much like the one on E's closet door.
The postcard says that it's Signal Peak in Wyoming. ..... One mistake in the film is when Ennis sends his "you bet" postcard, he doesn't include his address. How did Jack know which house (laundromat) to go to when he got there?
It does not look much like the Signal Mountain in the Tetons at: http://greymattermedia.com/images/teton005.jpg
If anyone recognizes, it I'm curious. Is this the same mountain depicted in the "fishing" card Alma reads later? The mountain in Jack's first card plainly has two prominences which would make it worthy of the "Brokeback" name.
I'm often wrong, but I thought that the front of E's "you bet" card did include a return address in the corner.
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Does anyone know what actual mountain is depicted on the first postcard? BTW, it does not look very much like the one on E's closet door.
The postcard says that it's Signal Peak in Wyoming. ..... One mistake in the film is when Ennis sends his "you bet" postcard, he doesn't include his address. How did Jack know which house (laundromat) to go to when he got there?
It does not look much like the Signal Mountain in the Tetons at: http://greymattermedia.com/images/teton005.jpg
If anyone recognizes, it I'm curious. Is this the same mountain depicted in the "fishing" card Alma reads later? The mountain in Jack's first card plainly has two prominences which would make it worthy of the "Brokeback" name.
I'm often wrong, but I thought that the front of E's "you bet" card did include a return address in the corner.
It was another PO Box
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[I'm often wrong, but I thought that the front of E's "you bet" card did include a return address in the corner.
Only semi-wrong :)! It says Ennis Del Mar Riverton WY
Rob
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However, in the second post card we see Jack send to Ennis (the one Alma reads before stuffing it back into the pile of mail) Ennis' addy is written in full, and it is not sent General Delivery.
(That doesn't answer the question of how Jack knew where to find Ennis, but I wanted to throw it in as I've seen lots of posters claim the postcards always came GD.)
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Just in case you haven't heard, we are running an Ad in Variety this Friday to thank everyone who contributed to the making of the Best Picture of 2005 - Brokeback Mountain. See the discussion on AD CAMPAIGN and how you can help.
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Not sure which mountain(s) are meant to be depicted in the postcards, and whether they were actual postcards, or created for the film. The mountain that is shown on the back of the soundtrack cd is Wind Ridge, just to your left when you are travelling northwards on the Trans Canada highway towards Canmore, Alberta. I've hiked around the base of the mountain, and behind it a few times.
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Apologies again if this has been previously covered - but has anyone noticed that during the Thanksgiving supper at Jack & Lureen's home (where Jack has the showdown with Lureen's father), it is a Canadian Football League game that is on the television? The Edmonton Eskimos are one team, and I think the Toronto Argonauts are the other. I would have never in a million years caught that, but my partner / husband, who is a sports nut, caught that immediately when he recognized the commentator's voice. Perhaps an inside joke from Ang Lee, who I understand fell under the spell of Canadian hockey and football while he was here in Calgary .....
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Have you always had this kind of phobia? And have you never done any "dishing" in the ladies' room?
Oh go on then, I give up. How does one "dish"?
A week down the line and I'm still puzzling. The only thing I can think of is 'dishing the dirt' as in gossiping? Am I right? Am I wrong? Am I destined never to know?
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it is a Canadian Football League game that is on the television? The Edmonton Eskimos are one team, and I think the Toronto Argonauts are the other.
It was filmed in Canada and they worked with the CBC. I don't believe they ever imagined anyone would notice. That or they would have had to paid through the nose to get a clip from the NFL and again, why bother since they didn't think anyone would be able to catch it.
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I have not had time enough to read all posts in this sight as there are so many, but I want to mention the first love scene between Ennis and Alma. As in the book....after they get "warmed" up, Ennis grabs Alma and does to her what she hates...and flips her over on her stomach. Hmmmm...now you tell me this wasn't intentional to show just how much Ennis is missing Jack. I'd love to hear other thoughts on this.
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I have not had time enough to read all posts in this sight as there are so many, but I want to mention the first love scene between Ennis and Alma. As in the book....after they get "warmed" up, Ennis grabs Alma and does to her what she hates...and flips her over on her stomach. Hmmmm...now you tell me this wasn't intentional to show just how much Ennis is missing Jack. I'd love to hear other thoughts on this.
I think it shows that Ennis is missing Jack, but I think there's more to it too. I think it shows that he hasn't been able to get pleasure from straight sex. He's tried to make himself enjoy it by recreating what he did with Jack, even though his wife hates it. I think it's another bit of 'proof' that he's gay.
I also think the 'I like doing it with women' comment later on is a bit of a white lie. I think it's more like 'I don't mind doing it with the only woman I've done it with as long as it's anal sex, I don't have to look at her, and I can pretend it's you'.
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Hi,
does anyone else completely well-up everytime Ennis recounts his tale about the two old tough guys who were shacked up together? That flashback, though wholly separate from the tale of love, is intricately woven into Ennis's character, and gives us some insight into why he is the clenched up fist that he is.
That scene hurts. This is where the root of the tragedy begins, in my view. I can't watch it without feeling overwhelmed by sadness and regret.
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I apologize if this has been discussed already (and I'd be surprised if it didn't) but I'd like to stress how powerful a scene is the one which is commonly referred to as the "are you doin this next summer again?" or something to that effect. I mean, Heath and Jake are simply amazing, once again! Look at Jack's face. He's so hopeful to get an answer from Ennis he can cling to. And it's just another "Brokeback Mountain season" he's asking for, not a life together. Not then, not yet. Now look at Heath. God, he's great. He's so embarassed, so broken himself. He knows he would like to "do this again next summer" but he HAS to say he will not. He is desperately trying to do what he thinks is the right thing to do. Marry Alma and all. His hat almost completely hiding his eyes, the shield which Jack put aside covering again his true self. And then he asks "And you?". This is SO great. I guess what he's actually asking is "what would you like me to do?". And Jack cannot but answer he's going to resume his life as well. They are BOTH pretending and they BOTH know it.
Then they part. Jack's devastated look in the side mirror. Ennis's desperation in the alley.
Boys, isn't that a powerful scene? I got shivers down my spine. And I watched it countless times.
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Another thing about the scene where Jack returns to Aguirre to ask if there's any work up on Brokeback (his 3rd summer, seeking Ennis) when Aguirre reveals his disdain and demonstrates explicit discrimination.
2. Aguirre then comes out with the "stem the rose" statement which makes his knowledge explicit. There are two shots of Jack in close-up after that statement. To me, there is overwhelming sadness in Jack's eyes. I see the very deepest pain of societal rejection in his eyes. There is no defiance in those eyes. In 1964 there would be no defiance in this character's eyes. There is only hurt. He looks like a puppy dog who has been very very harshly punished. He looks wounded to the core. As he exits that trailer, he is not defiant. As he exits that trailer, his heart is withering over society's rejection and hatred of who he is.
This is usually the first scene in the movie where real pain hits me deeply.
For me, this moment very very accurately portrays the very FIRST realization by every gay person in our own lives of how deep society's rejection is going to be throughout our lives. I believe it is the first time Jack has discovered such rejection - the first time he has had deep discrimination made explicit to him.
:'(
Oh brokebackbeauty - I've been trying to find the words to explain this scene to a str8 friend of mine; you said it. I had a knee-jerk reaction when watching the scene - I'd experienced this before and it is so painful to immediately recognise it. For me, in 2006 there may be a bit of defiance in one's eyes perhaps, but, for eg, even today (I'm 44), I can't see a way for a 15 year old kid to defend or protect himself/herself from this. Such a terrible a lesson!
Thanks,
Benny
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it is a Canadian Football League game that is on the television? The Edmonton Eskimos are one team, and I think the Toronto Argonauts are the other.
It was filmed in Canada and they worked with the CBC. I don't believe they ever imagined anyone would notice. That or they would have had to paid through the nose to get a clip from the NFL and again, why bother since they didn't think anyone would be able to catch it.
Actually, the NFL declined their request for archival footage - stating that (paraphrased) Bobby's grandfather insinuating that boys need to watch football to become men was the wrong message to be sending - and they didn't want to be associated with that.
Someone should have reminded them THIS IS A MOVIE! The CFL was more than happy to allow them archival footage. As was CTV - which gave them the Skate Canada footage that was being watched at Alma's Thanksgiving dinner
Rob
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Have you always had this kind of phobia? And have you never done any "dishing" in the ladies' room?
Oh go on then, I give up. How does one "dish"?
A week down the line and I'm still puzzling. The only thing I can think of is 'dishing the dirt' as in gossiping? Am I right? Am I wrong? Am I destined never to know?
Washing dishes, then. Something to do with washing dishes in the bathroom. Or some sort of euphemism, perhaps?
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Have you always had this kind of phobia? And have you never done any "dishing" in the ladies' room?
Oh go on then, I give up. How does one "dish"?
A week down the line and I'm still puzzling. The only thing I can think of is 'dishing the dirt' as in gossiping? Am I right? Am I wrong? Am I destined never to know?
Washing dishes, then. Something to do with washing dishes in the bathroom. Or some sort of euphemism, perhaps?
Yes, 'dishing' is gossiping.
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Yes, 'dishing' is gossiping.
Thank you! I don't think I've done THAT in a bathroom for years!
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Actually, the NFL declined their request for archival footage - stating that (paraphrased) Bobby's grandfather insinuating that boys need to watch football to become men was the wrong message to be sending - and they didn't want to be associated with that.
Someone should have reminded them THIS IS A MOVIE! The CFL was more than happy to allow them archival footage. As was CTV - which gave them the Skate Canada footage that was being watched at Alma's Thanksgiving dinner
Thanks for the information.
So the film makers knew what they were doing and settled on a bad compromise. It doesn't ruin it for me but it's too bad it has to contain a deliberate continuity flaw.
The nfl is one petty organization.
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Oh brokebackbeauty - I've been trying to find the words to explain this scene to a str8 friend of mine; you said it. I had a knee-jerk reaction when watching the scene - I'd experienced this before and it is so painful to immediately recognise it. For me, in 2006 there may be a bit of defiance in one's eyes perhaps, but, for eg, even today (I'm 44), I can't see a way for a 15 year old kid to defend or protect himself/herself from this. Such a terrible a lesson!
Thanks,
Benny
My pleasure.
I'm glad my interpretation was meaningful to you.
Thank you both for sharing your reaction to that scene. I am straight and did not really have any emotional reaction to that scene--I don't know what it feels like. Are there any other scenes or themes in the movie that you feel don't register with the straight community?
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For me, this moment very very accurately portrays the very FIRST realization by every gay person in our own lives of how deep society's rejection is going to be throughout our lives. I believe it is the first time Jack has discovered such rejection - the first time he has had deep discrimination made explicit to him.
brokebackbeauty -- I really enjoyed reading your commentary on the scene between Jack and Aguirre, but I have to disagree with you in regard to thinking that Aguirre's reaction was probably the first time that Jack had experienced a negative reaction about being gay. He was already in his late teens and had probably already experienced negative reaction from his family, classmates and anyone else he had met in public. I will agree that Ennis was probably Jack's first true love and perhaps his first gay experience. When Ennis and Jack were on the mountain, professing that "this is a one-shot deal" and "I'm not queer" you get the idea that they already know that society doesn't look favorably at love and sex between men. The fact that he saved those shirts and came back again for work (or to seek Ennis) tells us so much about Jack's true emotions as a gay man. But, I find it hard to believe that the reaction he got from Aguirre was the first time he had experienced any negativity about being gay.
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For me, this moment very very accurately portrays the very FIRST realization by every gay person in our own lives of how deep society's rejection is going to be throughout our lives. I believe it is the first time Jack has discovered such rejection - the first time he has had deep discrimination made explicit to him.
brokebackbeauty -- I really enjoyed reading your commentary on the scene between Jack and Aguirre, but I have to disagree with you in regard to thinking that Aguirre's reaction was probably the first time that Jack had experienced a negative reaction about being gay. He was already in his late teens and had probably already experienced negative reaction from his family, classmates and anyone else he had met in public. I will agree that Ennis was probably Jack's first true love and perhaps his first gay experience. When Ennis and Jack were on the mountain, professing that "this is a one-shot deal" and "I'm not queer" you get the idea that they already know that society doesn't look favorably at love and sex between men. The fact that he saved those shirts and came back again for work (or to seek Ennis) tells us so much about Jack's true emotions as a gay man. But, I find it hard to believe that the reaction he got from Aguirre was the first time he had experienced any negativity about being gay.
I would say that really depends on when Jack lost his virginity.
It's true that one learns in a very general sense that being gay is "bad" very early on in life. I just listened to Gore Vidal's audio comments about Brokeback and he mentions that homophobia is programmed from birth. Sure, both Jack and Ennis would say "I'm not queer", as would many males at that stage in their lives. regardless whether it's true or not.
If Jack is sexually experienced at the age of 19 when he first finds Ennis, then you may be right. I prefer however, to believe that it's quite possible that Ennis is Jack's first real encounter. Hell, a lot of men are virgins at 19, probably even more so in 1962 than now.
There is a huge difference between having a general awareness of homophobia and being expected to demonstrate homophobia and the first time you have discrimination hurled at you personally.
I don't agree with Gore Vidal's comment about "homophobia is programmed from birth." However, I agree that at an early age you learn that men should be attracted to women and women to men. When I was growing up, my father was very verbal in his attraction to beautiful women. I recall being attracted to men at a very early age, maybe 5, but understanding how different that was from what my father and society accepted. I learned to repress my attraction, so well, in fact, that I couldn't bring myself to come out to myself or anyone until I was 26! Even though I was not out to myself and denied my true feelings, I think that everyone around me was aware that I was different and I was taunted in school for being a "fag." I'm sure that ever gay man has had similar experiences as they grow up.
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Just a comment to add to the rich and useful discussion of shame, on the difference between guilt and shame. Guilt is "I've done something bad." Shame is "I AM something bad."
I came out nearly three years ago to a gay friend, and he bought me a book about the process written by some Italian guy (sorry, don't recall his name).
Now, I've known who I was (though never acted on it) for 35 years prior, and I thought I'd just settle down to a good read and pick up some pointers. The book had other ideas--it had exercises. The very first was to go to a mirror, look yourself squarely in the eye and say "I am gay." Like I said, I've known for years, but could I do this one simple thing? No! Run it through my head "I'm gay. Yeah. So what's the news?" Look in the mirror and say it? NFW.
Took me two evenings and several hours of crying, going to the mirror, collapsing, starting again.... Yup. Shame.
Your post made me cry. You are all so courageous. I feel almost ashamed for having taken everything for granted all these years as a straight person.
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Just a comment to add to the rich and useful discussion of shame, on the difference between guilt and shame. Guilt is "I've done something bad." Shame is "I AM something bad."
I came out nearly three years ago to a gay friend, and he bought me a book about the process written by some Italian guy (sorry, don't recall his name).
Now, I've known who I was (though never acted on it) for 35 years prior, and I thought I'd just settle down to a good read and pick up some pointers. The book had other ideas--it had exercises. The very first was to go to a mirror, look yourself squarely in the eye and say "I am gay." Like I said, I've known for years, but could I do this one simple thing? No! Run it through my head "I'm gay. Yeah. So what's the news?" Look in the mirror and say it? NFW.
Took me two evenings and several hours of crying, going to the mirror, collapsing, starting again.... Yup. Shame.
Your post made me cry. You are all so courageous. I feel almost ashamed for having taken everything for granted all these years as a straight person.
It took me 26 years to admit to myself that I was gay and it was a heart-wrenching experience. I'm 47 years old, and I have been happily partnered with the love of my life for 21 years, I still do not have an easy time telling many people that I am gay.
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But, I find it hard to believe that the reaction he got from Aguirre was the first time he had experienced any negativity about being gay.
I've been thinking about this. I don't know if Jack's prior sexual experience is relevant. It doesn't need him to be experienced for other people to have had an inkling about him. There are hints that other people guess. His father definitely knew - and may have known from way back before Brokeback Mountain. The clown and Randall pick up on it. I think that Lureen and her father may have had some idea. So yes, I think it's possible that other people were guessing about Jack, and that he'd already had some negativity.
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LD Newsome :
(looks at Lureen)
You want your son to grow up to be a man, don't you, daughter ?
(direct look at Jack)
Boys should watch football.
I am beginning to wonder if there is mote implied in this thanksgiving scene that is said. It has already been discussed : Jack seems to have few friends, despite his personality. The movie hints at Jack having a bad reputation (the piss-ant that used to try to ride bulls). If so, could it be that LD Newsome, certainly quite a personality in childress community, have heard some rumors about Jack ?
Wich would put a new layer of meaning to this thanksgiving scene, more in the line with the Ennis thanksgiving scene : BOTH of them are on the verge of being outed by members of their family. And in BOTH cases, violence is their answer.
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Wich would put a new layer of meaning to this thanksgiving scene, more in the line with the Ennis thanksgiving scene : BOTH of them are on the verge of being outed by members of their family. And in BOTH cases, violence is their answer.
That's a great observation, Lizandre. I agree, both of the Thanksgiving scenes were about Ennis and Jack publicly being outed by their families. And violence is what you get when you're found out to be gay. I think the scene with Ennis getting beat-up by the truck driver is particularly harsh, but not unlike what he already is conditioned to think he deserves for being found out. You see this in the way that the driver's foot violently kicks against Ennis with the same thrusts and cadence as when Ennis and Jack first had sex in the tent.
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The fury of the scene in the kitchen after that uncomfortable dinner gets me every time. Yesterday, there was an older couple behind me and the lady kept crying out through the whole scene. That look in Ennis's eyes and how he shakes knowing where the whole conversation is going and he can't stop it is breathtaking.
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I am beginning to wonder if there is mote implied in this thanksgiving scene that is said. It has already been discussed : Jack seems to have few friends, despite his personality. The movie hints at Jack having a bad reputation (the piss-ant that used to try to ride bulls). If so, could it be that LD Newsome, certainly quite a personality in childress community, have heard some rumors about Jack ?
Wich would put a new layer of meaning to this thanksgiving scene, more in the line with the Ennis thanksgiving scene : BOTH of them are on the verge of being outed by members of their family. And in BOTH cases, violence is their answer.
What I got out of the Thanksgiving scene with Jack is that Jack, who had always been a cheerful and optimistic young man, was finally old enough, strong enough, and sadly bitter enough to express himself. Up until this moment, Jack was pretty much a pushover. He always gave in to others. Here, for the first time, Jack shows an "ugly" side that was forged in his frustrations in life at always acquiescing to others.
It also was a set-up for the final confrontation between Jack and Ennis. For years Jack had tried to get through to Ennis just how much he wanted to live with Ennis. In this scene, Jack finally gets angry and speaks his mind. Just like he stood up to his father in law, he now stands up to Ennis, something we have never seen him do before.
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I am beginning to wonder if there is mote implied in this thanksgiving scene that is said. It has already been discussed : Jack seems to have few friends, despite his personality. The movie hints at Jack having a bad reputation (the piss-ant that used to try to ride bulls). If so, could it be that LD Newsome, certainly quite a personality in childress community, have heard some rumors about Jack ?
Wich would put a new layer of meaning to this thanksgiving scene, more in the line with the Ennis thanksgiving scene : BOTH of them are on the verge of being outed by members of their family. And in BOTH cases, violence is their answer.
What I got out of the Thanksgiving scene with Jack is that Jack, who had always been a cheerful and optimistic young man, was finally old enough, strong enough, and sadly bitter enough to express himself. Up until this moment, Jack was pretty much a pushover. He always gave in to others. Here, for the first time, Jack shows an "ugly" side that was forged in his frustrations in life at always acquiescing to others.
It also was a set-up for the final confrontation between Jack and Ennis. For years Jack had tried to get through to Ennis just how much he wanted to live with Ennis. In this scene, Jack finally gets angry and speaks his mind. Just like he stood up to his father in law, he now stands up to Ennis, something we have never seen him do before.
We see the same arc of development in Alma's relationship to Ennis...giving in about the girls in the grocery, to refusing to not go to work over the dinner hour, to finally being able to voice her fears about the true nature of Ennis's relationship with Jack.
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A week down the line and I'm still puzzling. The only thing I can think of is 'dishing the dirt' as in gossiping? Am I right? Am I wrong? Am I destined never to know?
Oops, sorry, I hadn't checked this thread in awhile. :-[
Yeah, I've always heard "dishing" used to describe gossiping in particular but also "girl talk" in general.
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I think Jack's Thanksgiving scene is really more of a counter-point to Ennis's 4th of July scene. In both scenes their rage boils out in these expressions of manliness. Both these scenes are over the top, stagy, and audience pleasing. Both explosions grow out of their inner conflicts, coming to light during these iconographic "American" moments. And in both, the "hetero" backs down.
But for me the 4th of July scene works much better. Even though some have complained about it, I just feel like it is so connected to Ennis's bottled up nature and that the movie has been so restrained that one little in your face moment . . . seems great.
There are fewer layers to Jack's blow-up. It just seems too easy. It takes me out of the spell the movie's cast over me which I would accept if the pay-off was bigger. It's the only scene in the movie I don't like.
Maybe someone can help me appreciate it a bit more . .?
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There are fewer layers to Jack's blow-up. It just seems too easy. It takes me out of the spell the movie's cast over me which I would accept if the pay-off was bigger. It's the only scene in the movie I don't like.
I can't agree.
I can understand you not liking this scene very much simply because it was deliberately added, as I said, to show how Jack was getting fed up with everyone walking all over him. It's not a great scene but I can see how it was needed. Without it, the last scene between Jack and Ennis would likely have seen too extreme a personality change for Jack.
It writing, there's the idea of the "rule of three". What that means is that people have to be given multiple references to an up coming event in order to see it coming and to see it in context. That's one of the things that separates bad plays from great plays.
The scene may have been added on but it was necessary for the audience to see the change in Jack.
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Yeah, the scene definitely has the function you describe. But you know the point where the scene loses me is when Lureen's father backs down so easily. You almost (not quite) feel sorry for him. I guess he's been bluff and bluster all along.
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There are fewer layers to Jack's blow-up. It just seems too easy. It takes me out of the spell the movie's cast over me which I would accept if the pay-off was bigger. It's the only scene in the movie I don't like.
Maybe someone can help me appreciate it a bit more . .?
My clue to this scene is that none of the characters in the movie can be labeled precisely. Not only can't you label Ennis and Jack as straight, which you might have at the beginning, but you can't label them as either mainly passive or mainly aggressive in nature.
The tent scene implies Jack is the more passive partner, and in the movie as a whole he was receptive in sexual situations. Jack is also klutzy, dropping keys, missing shots and so on -- not very manly, I'd say. The only thing he does deftly, in fact, is to lasso Ennis. At least he knew his priorities.
But the existentialism of the movie emphasizes the uniqueness of each individual, so the Thanksgiving scene seems to be there to prevent us from thinking we've got Jack all figured out. The scene is prefigured by earlier scenes showing Jack to be a risk-taker, too. It serves as a counterpoint to his more obvious homosexuality while at the same time warning us again that he's taking a lot of risks in his conduct.
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I gotta say...the scene you mention was my favorite. What I call the big fight. If you've read the book and screenplay, you really get a feel of all the emotions that are going on between the two men at this time. There is so much said that is not said (don't know if that makes sense) and if you've watched/read it carefully and a number of times, I think you really appreciate the things that are not said during this scene. Just my personal take.
And personally for me....from the time Jack says, "To tell the truth, sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it" - from that point on I'm a mess whenever I watch this movie. It's the que for my heart to sink heavily and that feeling of immense pain for them both creeps in. And I end up being a mess for the rest of the film.
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I gotta say...the scene you mention was my favorite. What I call the big fight. If you've read the book and screenplay, you really get a feel of all the emotions that are going on between the two men at this time. There is so much said that is not said (don't know if that makes sense) and if you've watched/read it carefully and a number of times, I think you really appreciate the things that are not said during this scene. Just my personal take.
And personally for me....from the time Jack says, "To tell the truth, sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it" - from that point on I'm a mess whenever I watch this movie. It's the que for my heart to sink heavily and that feeling of immense pain for them both creeps in. And I end up being a mess for the rest of the film.
Saw BBM at local multiplex again last night. Magnificent movie, period. The "dozy embrace" simply killed me. I had not quite heard before that Ennis is singing to Jack like Ennis's mother used to sing to him. Oh my God.... Anyway, I was very intrigued (if also disturbed) this time by the "buying a beer for the rodeo clown" scene, about which I haven't seen much discussion. It's a scene I had kind of dismissed before, because I didn't seem to understand it. I suspect that, as with the whole damn movie, enormous thought was placed into every detail in every second in that scene. It's funny how this time I was *very* struck by it; I felt puzzled yet I knew -- in my heart, I think -- the point or intent of the scene. It's not spelled out, but I think: Jack is trying to either safely flirt with the guy or at least *just bond* with another man in some way. I don't think Jack knows that the guy is necessarily gay (in contrast to the Mexico alley scene). The rodeo clown essentially rejects Jack, and it seems that it's anti-gay in a kind of Kafka-esque way: The rodeo clown never says, "Get away from me, faggot," but anti-gay stuff saturates the air like the cigarette smoke. At the very least, Jack is rejected as a potential friend and as a rodeo-er. It's clear that Jack just doesn't have great talent in rodeo, although he has enthusiasm for it. (His father wouldn't deign to teach him anything and had otherwise totally rejected Jack; and Jack was likewise rejected by Lureen's father. And of course Aguirre rejected him, too.) I think the scene showed Jack just being, once again, all around rejected, despite his attempts to not be (compounded of course by the rodeo clown going to his other buddies, leaving Jack as a rejected outsider). Like other scenes in the movie, it's open for speculation and interpretation. But I found myself feeling a kind of sickening feeling. I can relate to experiences in my own past where I desperately wanted to be accepted by other men. It didn't have to be to the degree of homoeroticism -- although that might have been nice in some cases. But just accepted, just one of the guys, an equal. Thank heaven, I *have* had some of those experiences, including in athletic situations. I am blessed to have several good friendships with straight men. But I know the rejection, too.
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i particularly love alma jr.'s obvious, abundant love and affection and total admiration for her father in their thanksgiving scene. i love the brief shot of her in the background stroking ennis' back as she walks by him while he is clearing the dishes from the table. her maternal nature with him in the later parts of the film is so touching. for me, it was just so great to see ennis be able to and, more importantly, allowed to, demonstrate his love for his daughters. his existence is so bottled up and his love for jack is simply not allowed in his universe. his daughters are the outlet for all of his affection. i am one who feels that alma, jr. knew about her father, and probably, knew about her father and jack. children remember and jack reenterd ennis' life when she was old enough to recognize the effects the relationship had on the family, and specifically, her mother. her desire to protect and care for her father reflects this knowledge. i just love that whole relationship. i think thanksgiving is when we really see it begin to to flourish.
The last scene between Ennis and Alma Jr. effectively defined and confirmed this. After Alma Jr. shared the news of her imminent marriage to her fiance Ennis asked "Does this Kurt loves you?" his facial expression was so full of layers...deep emotional layers, a combination of worry that his daughter would experience the same heartbreak that love sometimes brings as he knows too well, the longing for Jack, missed opportunity, regret, and god knows what else that contributes to a man's heartache. Somehow Alma Jr. sensed that the question is more than a fatherly inquiry as her eyes starts welling up, that she knew her father had lost something, that a big part of him had died. But she becomes hopefull for her father as he soon considers attending her wedding as they share a drink of whiskey together...probably for the first time.
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Saw BBM at local multiplex again last night. Magnificent movie, period. The "dozy embrace" simply killed me. I had not quite heard before that Ennis is singing to Jack like Ennis's mother used to sing to him. Oh my God.... Anyway, I was very intrigued (if also disturbed) this time by the "buying a beer for the rodeo clown" scene, about which I haven't seen much discussion. It's a scene I had kind of dismissed before, because I didn't seem to understand it. I suspect that, as with the whole damn movie, enormous thought was placed into every detail in every second in that scene. It's funny how this time I was *very* struck by it; I felt puzzled yet I knew -- in my heart, I think -- the point or intent of the scene. It's not spelled out, but I think: Jack is trying to either safely flirt with the guy or at least *just bond* with another man in some way. I don't think Jack knows that the guy is necessarily gay (in contrast to the Mexico alley scene). The rodeo clown essentially rejects Jack, and it seems that it's anti-gay in a kind of Kafka-esque way: The rodeo clown never says, "Get away from me, faggot," but anti-gay stuff saturates the air like the cigarette smoke. At the very least, Jack is rejected as a potential friend and as a rodeo-er. It's clear that Jack just doesn't have great talent in rodeo, although he has enthusiasm for it. (His father wouldn't deign to teach him anything and had otherwise totally rejected Jack; and Jack was likewise rejected by Lureen's father. And of course Aguirre rejected him, too.) I think the scene showed Jack just being, once again, all around rejected, despite his attempts to not be (compounded of course by the rodeo clown going to his other buddies, leaving Jack as a rejected outsider). Like other scenes in the movie, it's open for speculation and interpretation. But I found myself feeling a kind of sickening feeling. I can relate to experiences in my own past where I desperately wanted to be accepted by other men. It didn't have to be to the degree of homoeroticism -- although that might have been nice in some cases. But just accepted, just one of the guys, an equal. Thank heaven, I *have* had some of those experiences, including in athletic situations. I am blessed to have several good friendships with straight men. But I know the rejection, too.
I would agree with everything you've said about this scene and add that I think it's symbolic to society's rejection as a whole of homosexuality. It shows that Ennis' later concern about living with Jack as a couple is not unfounded. I definitely think Jack's hitting on Jimbo was sexually charged, from the look on Jack's face, his flirting, etc. It's all too clear Jimbo gets the drift, rejects it entirely, and then goes marching off in disgust. Jimbo joins his macho friends, and obviously disapproves of Jack's actions. This scene, to me, points out the almost insurmountable obstacles that would stand in the way of Jack and Ennis ever having a life together in that place and time.
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Saw BBM at local multiplex again last night. Magnificent movie, period. The "dozy embrace" simply killed me. I had not quite heard before that Ennis is singing to Jack like Ennis's mother used to sing to him. Oh my God.... Anyway, I was very intrigued (if also disturbed) this time by the "buying a beer for the rodeo clown" scene, about which I haven't seen much discussion. It's a scene I had kind of dismissed before, because I didn't seem to understand it. I suspect that, as with the whole damn movie, enormous thought was placed into every detail in every second in that scene. It's funny how this time I was *very* struck by it; I felt puzzled yet I knew -- in my heart, I think -- the point or intent of the scene. It's not spelled out, but I think: Jack is trying to either safely flirt with the guy or at least *just bond* with another man in some way. I don't think Jack knows that the guy is necessarily gay (in contrast to the Mexico alley scene). The rodeo clown essentially rejects Jack, and it seems that it's anti-gay in a kind of Kafka-esque way: The rodeo clown never says, "Get away from me, faggot," but anti-gay stuff saturates the air like the cigarette smoke. At the very least, Jack is rejected as a potential friend and as a rodeo-er. It's clear that Jack just doesn't have great talent in rodeo, although he has enthusiasm for it. (His father wouldn't deign to teach him anything and had otherwise totally rejected Jack; and Jack was likewise rejected by Lureen's father. And of course Aguirre rejected him, too.) I think the scene showed Jack just being, once again, all around rejected, despite his attempts to not be (compounded of course by the rodeo clown going to his other buddies, leaving Jack as a rejected outsider). Like other scenes in the movie, it's open for speculation and interpretation. But I found myself feeling a kind of sickening feeling. I can relate to experiences in my own past where I desperately wanted to be accepted by other men. It didn't have to be to the degree of homoeroticism -- although that might have been nice in some cases. But just accepted, just one of the guys, an equal. Thank heaven, I *have* had some of those experiences, including in athletic situations. I am blessed to have several good friendships with straight men. But I know the rejection, too.
I would agree with everything you've said about this scene and add that I think it's symbolic to society's rejection as a whole of homosexuality. It shows that Ennis' later concern about living with Jack as a couple is not unfounded. I definitely think Jack's hitting on Jimbo was sexually charged, from the look on Jack's face, his flirting, etc. It's all too clear Jimbo gets the drift, rejects it entirely, and then goes marching off in disgust. Jimbo joins his macho friends, and obviously disapproves of Jack's actions. This scene, to me, points out the almost insurmountable obstacles that would stand in the way of Jack and Ennis ever having a life together in that place and time.
Wow... I appreciate your comments a great deal. You really think Jimbo (I didn't catch his name!) gets Jack's drift clearly? Clearly enough, I guess. I guess Jack couldn't make his approach completely overt -- even Jack would know that that would be a tremendous risk. Perhaps because it was just shy of overt, Jimbo merely got up and left, saying something about saving the money for your next entry fee, as opposed to having a violent freak-out reaction.
This may be highly personal, but that scene was a particularly deeply felt kick in the gut for me. In a way, the "lesson" was that Jimbo's -- and his friends' -- reaction could have been MUCH, MUCH worse. I think also in that time and place it was extremely taboo to even allude to homosexuality in a conversation. (vs. a few days ago a total stranger offhandedly mentioned to me in a "mainstream" public place that he was gay). It's like Jack's buying him a beer was a nice gesture, and by no means was Jack being truly threatening at all to Jimbo...and men *do* buy each other beers just to be nice sometimes. But Jimbo has, apparently, an extremely homophobic reaction -- extremely disapproving, extremely rejecting... The SOB can't even be nice, or take it as a compliment. I flash back personally to experiences in the past of looking at another man a little too long, and getting a subtle signal of aggression or disgust back at me, which felt like crap -- while I have *never* made a sexual advance on someone I knew was straight. Likewise, Jack really meant no harm; and instead of Jimbo's just giving him a polite "no" to Jack's fairly subtle flirting, Jimbo was a prick about it, and there was an implication that Jimbo went and spoke ill of Jack to Jimbo's friends. Ugh......
Well put re its being symbolic of society's rejection. I hadn't thought about it, but yes it gives Jack (more) evidence of the risks of living with Ennis, as he (Jack) wanted. It gives the moviegoer that evidence. That is, if an entirely pleasant approach by Jack could lead to this nasty of a response, imagine if they did attempt to live together or otherwise have their relationship known. (They are awfully lucky that only Alma saw them kiss outside Ennis's flat.) Being tortured and killed was an entirely real risk. The homohatred was so thick that a very nice gesture that happened to have possible homoerotic overtunes was emphatically rebuked. :(
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Wow... I appreciate your comments a great deal. You really think Jimbo (I didn't catch his name!) gets Jack's drift clearly? Clearly enough, I guess. I guess Jack couldn't make his approach completely overt -- even Jack would know that that would be a tremendous risk. Perhaps because it was just shy of overt, Jimbo merely got up and left, saying something about saving the money for your next entry fee, as opposed to having a violent freak-out reaction.
This may be highly personal, but that scene was a particularly deeply felt kick in the gut for me. In a way, the "lesson" was that Jimbo's -- and his friends' -- reaction could have been MUCH, MUCH worse. I think also in that time and place it was extremely taboo to even allude to homosexuality in a conversation. (vs. a few days ago a total stranger offhandedly mentioned to me in a "mainstream" public place that he was gay). It's like Jack's buying him a beer was a nice gesture, and by no means was Jack being truly threatening at all to Jimbo...and men *do* buy each other beers just to be nice sometimes. But Jimbo has, apparently, an extremely homophobic reaction -- extremely disapproving, extremely rejecting... The SOB can't even be nice, or take it as a compliment. I flash back personally to experiences in the past of looking at another man a little too long, and getting a subtle signal of aggression or disgust back at me, which felt like crap -- while I have *never* make a sexual advance on someone I knew was straight. Likewise, Jack really meant no harm; and instead of Jimbo's just giving him a polite "no" to Jack's fairly subtle flirting, Jimbo was a prick about it, and there was an implication that Jimbo went and spoke ill of Jack to Jimbo's friends. Ugh......
The first time I saw the movie, I knew something was happening between Jimbo and Jack but I missed it.
On my second viewing, I watched the scene very carefully and I saw Jack wink at Jimbo with his right eye. At that moment, the expression on Jimbos face and his attitude does a 180. He's no longer interested in being friendly or talking to Jack and he leaves.
Watch for the wink next time. Once you see it you can't deny it and the events in the scene make perfect sense.
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Regarding the clown scene this ties in nicely with the two word sentence "Other reasons." of Jack's in Proulx's story. He says those words to Ennis when he is telling him that he got out of Rodeo. The context of those words is Jack telling him about how expensive rodeo is, how busted up he gets et.al.
I find the clown physically and personally repulsive. Yuck. Good job on the actor's part, though.
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I think Ennis didn't realize how Jack would react when he sent the post card about his divorce. Ennis was pretty oblivious to other people's feelings. As for Jack, he parted from Ennis with the words, "See you next month." He was in deep denial.
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Front-Ranger-
You've put your finger on something that has always gnawed at me regarding the story and the film-
What reaction did Ennis expect from Jack when he heard of Ennis divorce? What purpose was served by Ennis telling him about the divorce especially given the fact that Ennis knew he was not going to live with Jack even if he was divorced.
I've gotten answers from other posters that Ennis needed to reach out to somebody about his divorce and I accept that, but still, although I love the character of Ennis. this behavior of his and its effect on Jack make me come very close to disliking him.
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Yeah, the scene definitely has the function you describe. But you know the point where the scene loses me is when Lureen's father backs down so easily. You almost (not quite) feel sorry for him. I guess he's been bluff and bluster all along.
When I first saw this scene, and saw Lureen's dad back down, I immediately became fearful that he was plotting against Jack (backing down because he knew he'd make him pay later...) There is nothing to support my fear - it's just what I thought of instantaneously...
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Front-Ranger-
You've put your finger on something that has always gnawed at me regarding the story and the film-
What reaction did Ennis expect from Jack when he heard of Ennis divorce? What purpose was served by Ennis telling him about the divorce especially given the fact that Ennis knew he was not going to live with Jack even if he was divorced.
I've gotten answers from other posters that Ennis needed to reach out to somebody about his divorce and I accept that, but still, although I love the character of Ennis. this behavior of his and its effect on Jack make me come very close to disliking him.
In the short story, I believe Ennis doesn't send a post card but makes a phone call... When he calls Lureen in the end, I believe there is a reference too the fact it was the only time he had ever called Jack's number, except for the time when there was the misunderstandig about the divorce (don't have the story in front of me to reference, haven't read the screenplay/ hope I'm not confusing it with someone's alternate ending...). The questions of Ennis' intent has always bugged me too... I didn't try to think of an answer (until right now). Maybe, Ennis just wanted Jack to know... and as pointed out, didn't think about Jack's response or how it would affect Jack, just that he wanted Jack to know he wasn't divorced. (Apologies for not reading all prior posts if this is repetitive.)
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In the short story, I believe Ennis doesn't send a post card but makes a phone call... When he calls Lureen in the end, I believe there is a reference too the fact it was the only time he had ever called Jack's number, except for the time when there was the misunderstandig about the divorce (don't have the story in front of me to reference, haven't read the screenplay/ hope I'm not confusing it with someone's alternate ending...).
Ennis didn't know about the accident for months until his postcard to Jack saying that November still looked like the first chance came back stamped DECEASED. He called Jack's number in Childress, something he had done only once before when Alma divorced him and Jack had misunderstood the reason for the call, had driven twelve hundred miles north for nothing. This would be all right, Jack would answer, had to answer.
So, there you have it. Make of it what you will!
Dal
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I haven't read all the posts on this thread but I wanted to talk about the alley scene... to me, this was one of the most powerful scenes in the movie. The first time I saw BBM and I saw this scene it was sooo heart wrenching... it is the scene that made me reevualate my own life and think "Have I ever felt love (or any emotional connection for that matter) to such a degree that the loss of that love would cause me to be physically ill? Heath Ledger is so incredible at portraying the absolute devastation of Ennis at losing the one love of his life. First, when he is sitting by himself on Brokeback and then when he is kneeling in the alley... he conveys more emotion than any actor I have ever seen and with almost no words. (he so deserved the Oscar!)
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I haven't read all the posts on this thread but I wanted to talk about the alley scene... to me, this was one of the most powerful scenes in the movie. The first time I saw BBM and I saw this scene it was sooo heart wrenching... it is the scene that made me reevualate my own life and think "Have I ever felt love (or any emotional connection for that matter) to such a degree that the loss of that love would cause me to be physically ill? Heath Ledger is so incredible at portraying the absolute devastation of Ennis at losing the one love of his life. First, when he is sitting by himself on Brokeback and then when he is kneeling in the alley... he conveys more emotion than any actor I have ever seen and with almost no words. (he so deserved the Oscar!)
As he kneels in the alley, you hear the audio from the next scene (wedding)..."Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us, lead us not into temptation........."
brilliant ! Ennis on knees looking for salvation, redemption?
brilliant Ang Lee!
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I so agree.....that transition always moves me.....it's so perfect.....
and lead me not into temptation...
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Hello guys......I do not know whether this has been posted before but there are two things which i really need someone to tell me ...
1. The scene where Jack goes to see Ennis after the divorce. He's being happy and chirpy on the way, and then was snubbed by Ennis (coz he has his 2 kids there)...then they were (Jack and Ennis) looking at a moving truck on the road...and Jack seems to understand something......which I dont get......What is the importance of that passing truck?..Can anyone help?
2. Do you guys think Ennis's daughters, especially Alma Jr knows about their relationship (Jack and Ennis)?
Watched in more than 10 times...love it...simply inlove with it.
"You bet"
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Hello guys......I do not know whether this has been posted before but there are two things which i really need someone to tell me ...
1. The scene where Jack goes to see Ennis after the divorce. He's being happy and chirpy on the way, and then was snubbed by Ennis (coz he has his 2 kids there)...then they were (Jack and Ennis) looking at a moving truck on the road...and Jack seems to understand something......which I dont get......What is the importance of that passing truck?..Can anyone help?
2. Do you guys think Ennis's daughters, especially Alma Jr knows about their relationship (Jack and Ennis)?
Watched in more than 10 times...love it...simply inlove with it.
"You bet"
Ennis shows his paranoia with the passing truck....that they might think something about him and Jack..........Jack picks up on Ennis's uneasy feeling after seeing his expression
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they were (Jack and Ennis) looking at a moving truck on the road...and Jack seems to understand something......which I dont get......What is the importance of that passing truck?..Can anyone help?
2. Do you guys think Ennis's daughters, especially Alma Jr knows about their relationship (Jack and Ennis)?
Ennis didn't like to be seen with Jack. To be seen together was a public confirmation of their relationship.
No, I don't believe Alma JR knows. However, we can all imagine that at some time, Ennis tells her all about Jack. That's some hope we can all cling to.
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they were (Jack and Ennis) looking at a moving truck on the road...and Jack seems to understand something......which I dont get......What is the importance of that passing truck?..Can anyone help?
2. Do you guys think Ennis's daughters, especially Alma Jr knows about their relationship (Jack and Ennis)?
Ennis didn't like to be seen with Jack. To be seen together was a public confirmation of their relationship.
No, I don't believe Alma JR knows. However, we can all imagine that at some time, Ennis tells her all about Jack. That's some hope we can all cling to.
I think Alma jr. knows about her Daddys relationship with Jack.
Look at her expression compared to Jennys expression when they are meeting Jack the first time.
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I think Alma jr. knows about her Daddys relationship with Jack.
Look at her expression compared to Jennys expression when they are meeting Jack the first time.
We can't be sure about this one. It's pure speculation. But considering how secretive Ennis was, I'd be surprised he dd or said anything that would make her suspicious. Maybe Alma said something in passing? Maybe Alma JR. picked up on something? It's possible.
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I think Alma jr. knows about her Daddys relationship with Jack.
Look at her expression compared to Jennys expression when they are meeting Jack the first time.
Sorry to be just jumping in here........but yea I thought she knew, and I was glad she did, for once in his life Ennis needs "someone" in his corner and I imagined she would be that person. :'(
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I think Alma jr. knows about her Daddys relationship with Jack.
Look at her expression compared to Jennys expression when they are meeting Jack the first time.
We can't be sure about this one. It's pure speculation. But considering how secretive Ennis was, I'd be surprised he dd or said anything that would make her suspicious. Maybe Alma said something in passing? Maybe Alma JR. picked up on something? It's possible.
Alma jr seems to be in alot of scenes where Ennis is leaving on a Jack trip........Alma Jr is held by mama while mama crys after he leaves with Jack reunion time........ Alma jr told Cassie maybe Daddy wasnt the marrying kind......etc....
theres lots of little hints she knew
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I think Alma jr. knows about her Daddys relationship with Jack.
Look at her expression compared to Jennys expression when they are meeting Jack the first time.
Sorry to be just jumping in here........but yea I thought she knew, and I was glad she did, for once in his life Ennis needs "someone" in his corner and I imagined she would be that person. :'(
I agree that Alma Jr. knew about the relationship and that Ennis needed "someone" in his corner; also that Alma Jr. knew that he needed someone in his corner. The first time I saw the movie, I thought that Ennis woul "confess" his relationship with Jack to Alma Jr. and I couldn't stand the fact that he didn't tell her. About her knowing though, I think that she "knew," (as related above), but that she also sort of didn't know, in a sense, because she never saw anything that would be substantial evidence as to Jack and Ennis's relationship. I think that Alma Jr. was always waiting for the rumours/her suspicions to be true.
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Alma jr seems to be in alot of scenes where Ennis is leaving on a Jack trip........Alma Jr is held by mama while mama crys after he leaves with Jack reunion time........ Alma jr told Cassie maybe Daddy wasnt the marrying kind......etc....
theres lots of little hints she knew
Could be. I just can't say so for sure. If Alma JR ever made mention of Ennis' "friend", that would be the clincher for me.
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I think Alma jr. knows about her Daddys relationship with Jack.
Look at her expression compared to Jennys expression when they are meeting Jack the first time.
We can't be sure about this one. It's pure speculation. But considering how secretive Ennis was, I'd be surprised he dd or said anything that would make her suspicious. Maybe Alma said something in passing? Maybe Alma JR. picked up on something? It's possible.
Alma jr seems to be in alot of scenes where Ennis is leaving on a Jack trip........Alma Jr is held by mama while mama crys after he leaves with Jack reunion time........ Alma jr told Cassie maybe Daddy wasnt the marrying kind......etc....
theres lots of little hints she knew
I never even considered the fact that Alma Jr. might have remembered that scene where Ennis leaves on that first trip with Jack and in which Alma cries. Not that I considered that Alma Jr. was too young to remember later what was going on. It's just that I never considered Alma Jr.'s point of view in that scene at all! Good call! I always thought that Alma Jr. kind of knew, but I never considered how she might have found out. See how great this forum is!?
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I think Alma jr. knows about her Daddys relationship with Jack.
Look at her expression compared to Jennys expression when they are meeting Jack the first time.
We can't be sure about this one. It's pure speculation. But considering how secretive Ennis was, I'd be surprised he dd or said anything that would make her suspicious. Maybe Alma said something in passing? Maybe Alma JR. picked up on something? It's possible.
Alma jr seems to be in alot of scenes where Ennis is leaving on a Jack trip........Alma Jr is held by mama while mama crys after he leaves with Jack reunion time........ Alma jr told Cassie maybe Daddy wasnt the marrying kind......etc....
theres lots of little hints she knew
I never even considered the fact that Alma Jr. might have remembered that scene where Ennis leaves on that first trip with Jack and in which Alma cries. Not that I considered that Alma Jr. was too young to remember later what was going on. It's just that I never considered Alma Jr.'s point of view in that scene at all! Good call! I always thought that Alma Jr. kind of knew, but I never considered how she might have found out. See how great this forum is!?
But I think with Alma jr being the oldest girl, maybe mama confided (or bitched) to her at times as she got older after they had divorced......
maybe?
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downloaded, David G and artijensen...thanx for the prompt reply.
I really do pity Jack most of the time...you can really see the hurts and frustations in his face (encore Jake). The scene where he finally cries on his way back after being snubbed says its all.....he almost cry when they first parted in Signal...you can seen his eyes waters...after he viewed Ennis in his side mirrors....
And deep in my guts, i sensed that Alma Jr understands his father.... and she's one good example of how love is a force of nature and what atolerance really is....she loves her father no matter what.....
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But I think with Alma jr being the oldest girl, maybe mama confided (or bitched) to her at times as she got older after they had divorced......maybe?
It's possible but speculation. I like to believe that maybe sometime in the future, Alma JR finds the shirts and wonders why her dad is saving two bloody articles of clothing. Maybe at that point, Ennis will have found the courage to unburden himself and tell Alma JR about his life with Jack. For Ennis, I see it as his only hope for finding peace and coming to terms with his life.
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But I think with Alma jr being the oldest girl, maybe mama confided (or bitched) to her at times as she got older after they had divorced......maybe?
It's possible but speculation. I like to believe that maybe sometime in the future, Alma JR finds the shirts and wonders why her dad is saving two bloody articles of clothing. Maybe at that point, Ennis will have found the courage to unburden himself and tell Alma JR about his life with Jack. For Ennis, I see it as his only hope for finding peace and coming to terms with his life.
this whole film is speculation
:-)
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But I think with Alma jr being the oldest girl, maybe mama confided (or bitched) to her at times as she got older after they had divorced......maybe?
It's possible but speculation. I like to believe that maybe sometime in the future, Alma JR finds the shirts and wonders why her dad is saving two bloody articles of clothing. Maybe at that point, Ennis will have found the courage to unburden himself and tell Alma JR about his life with Jack. For Ennis, I see it as his only hope for finding peace and coming to terms with his life.
this whole film is speculation
:-)
Definitely agree that the whole film, or at least the things that aren't shown to us, is speculation. I do not think that there are any hidden meanings or events in the film; i.e., events that we could find out about if only we analyzed this line, or that line (but we should analyze them anyway because it's fun and it makes all of us feel better!).
I do, however, think that there are a lot of scenes and themes in this movie that are not always clear to everyone. Certain scenes and themes may be abundantly clear to some people based on experience, but not to others, based on lack of experience. That's why we discuss them here.
The events that no one in the audience knows about/will never know about are a part of what makes this story affect us so much. Good art is supposed to be universal, whether the point of view is omnipresent, personal, whatever. In this case it's personal. If the camera had moved back a little bit and shown us all the wide angle--what's been going on in the world around Jack and Ennis--we would have been focused on that world and would not even think to question what Alma Jr. may or may not know. It would have been an entirely different story, possibly a very good story, but a very different story.
In Brokeback Mountain the perspective is not omnipresent. It's limited to what Jack and Ennis are doing at certain moments in time. Those things that we don't know/will never know tantalize, but the story would not have been the same if we knew those things; it would not have resonated the way it does.
One of the things that I think makes the movie great is that the writers/producers/director/whoever do not inadvertently insert themselves into the story. When we watch this movie we are not aware of anyone filtering out the pure emotion for us. That's why it hits us as hard as it does; there is nothing between the events in the movie and the audience (i.e. there is no director, producer, writers there to filter anything out and lessen the emotional impact--of course the director, producer, writers, etc. do exist, but they have made themselves agreeably invisible).
I think it's possible that Alma Jr. may find the shirt and find out about Jack and Ennis, but that's a matter for another story.
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But I think with Alma jr being the oldest girl, maybe mama confided (or bitched) to her at times as she got older after they had divorced......maybe?
It's possible but speculation. I like to believe that maybe sometime in the future, Alma JR finds the shirts and wonders why her dad is saving two bloody articles of clothing. Maybe at that point, Ennis will have found the courage to unburden himself and tell Alma JR about his life with Jack. For Ennis, I see it as his only hope for finding peace and coming to terms with his life.
I definately think she may have 'known' but I very much doubt it would have been because of Alma telling her. The way I see it - Alma was probably so ashamed (Both of Ennis AND herself) that she couldn't say anything. Look how many years it too her to confront Ennis - and that was only after she was married and settled again.
Rob
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Wow... I appreciate your comments a great deal. You really think Jimbo (I didn't catch his name!) gets Jack's drift clearly? Clearly enough, I guess. I guess Jack couldn't make his approach completely overt -- even Jack would know that that would be a tremendous risk. Perhaps because it was just shy of overt, Jimbo merely got up and left, saying something about saving the money for your next entry fee, as opposed to having a violent freak-out reaction.
This may be highly personal, but that scene was a particularly deeply felt kick in the gut for me. In a way, the "lesson" was that Jimbo's -- and his friends' -- reaction could have been MUCH, MUCH worse. I think also in that time and place it was extremely taboo to even allude to homosexuality in a conversation. (vs. a few days ago a total stranger offhandedly mentioned to me in a "mainstream" public place that he was gay). It's like Jack's buying him a beer was a nice gesture, and by no means was Jack being truly threatening at all to Jimbo...and men *do* buy each other beers just to be nice sometimes. But Jimbo has, apparently, an extremely homophobic reaction -- extremely disapproving, extremely rejecting... The SOB can't even be nice, or take it as a compliment. I flash back personally to experiences in the past of looking at another man a little too long, and getting a subtle signal of aggression or disgust back at me, which felt like crap -- while I have *never* make a sexual advance on someone I knew was straight. Likewise, Jack really meant no harm; and instead of Jimbo's just giving him a polite "no" to Jack's fairly subtle flirting, Jimbo was a prick about it, and there was an implication that Jimbo went and spoke ill of Jack to Jimbo's friends. Ugh......
The first time I saw the movie, I knew something was happening between Jimbo and Jack but I missed it.
On my second viewing, I watched the scene very carefully and I saw Jack wink at Jimbo with his right eye. At that moment, the expression on Jimbos face and his attitude does a 180. He's no longer interested in being friendly or talking to Jack and he leaves.
Watch for the wink next time. Once you see it you can't deny it and the events in the scene make perfect sense.
I will look for it, thank you. Curious how I missed that. I wonder if Ang Lee intended for not everyone to perceive the wink?
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Regarding the clown scene this ties in nicely with the two word sentence "Other reasons." of Jack's in Proulx's story. He says those words to Ennis when he is telling him that he got out of Rodeo. The context of those words is Jack telling him about how expensive rodeo is, how busted up he gets et.al.
I find the clown physically and personally repulsive. Yuck. Good job on the actor's part, though.
I imagine Jack found the rodeo community unfriendly indeed. Per stereotype you might think a rodeo clown -- a performer, who even wears make-up -- might be more likely to be gay compared to others in a rodeo community. I found the rodeo clown rather handsome in the first part of my first viewing, when I didn't know that it would not turn out well. Jack probably found him handsome, too. But he quickly comes off as a repulsive person with the rudeness of his rejection and then appearing to share his contempt (somehow) with his friends. (I wonder if Jack would not have had to mosey out of there to avoid some kind of bad to very bad scene.) On my second and third viewings, even though I didn't see a wink that apparently Jack gives him (see previous posts), I knew how the scene would turn out and I got a definitely creepy feeling seeing Jimbo when Jack first goes up to him. It's like the energy of attraction just switched valence and grew more negative from there.
By the way, I don't know if the rodeo clown is in Annie Proulx's story or not - ?
I want to express an appreciation for Ang Lee's dedication to realism. A director who wanted to direct a "Jack hits on a guy and meets with homophobia" scene could have easily made it in a way that is obvious but is not how it would really happen in real life. In real life there is ambiguity, poor phrasing, dirt and sweat, etc. And less than dead-on "camera angles." Yes, in real life, people rarely talk to each other at 1/6 turn angles, and living rooms have 4 walls, rather than 3. Lee's tent scenes are tight because tents are tight. I think it was a brilliant touch to show one of the men urinating, as that's certainly part of reality, each and every day. And no doubt Ennis and Jack went into the woods to poop. The sets and set directions were unbelievably spot-on...for example, listen for the entirely authentic laundromat sound (water extraction cycle?)... Even Aguirre's butt going up the little stairs to his trailer -- not too appealing an image, but it was entirely realistic.
I haven't seen "Crash," but I wonder how it compares regarding care taken to be realistic.
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Alma jr seems to be in alot of scenes where Ennis is leaving on a Jack trip........Alma Jr is held by mama while mama crys after he leaves with Jack reunion time........ Alma jr told Cassie maybe Daddy wasnt the marrying kind......etc....
theres lots of little hints she knew
Could be. I just can't say so for sure. If Alma JR ever made mention of Ennis' "friend", that would be the clincher for me.
Sorry, I just joined today and this is my first post. I meant to reply to the previous post. But I have the feeling
she knew something was up, maybe didn't have the words for it.
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I think Alma jr. knows about her Daddys relationship with Jack.
Look at her expression compared to Jennys expression when they are meeting Jack the first time.
Sorry to be just jumping in here........but yea I thought she knew, and I was glad she did, for once in his life Ennis needs "someone" in his corner and I imagined she would be that person. :'(
...waiting for the rumors/her suspicions to be true...that's it!
I agree that Alma Jr. knew about the relationship and that Ennis needed "someone" in his corner; also that Alma Jr. knew that he needed someone in his corner. The first time I saw the movie, I thought that Ennis woul "confess" his relationship with Jack to Alma Jr. and I couldn't stand the fact that he didn't tell her. About her knowing though, I think that she "knew," (as related above), but that she also sort of didn't know, in a sense, because she never saw anything that would be substantial evidence as to Jack and Ennis's relationship. I think that Alma Jr. was always waiting for the rumours/her suspicions to be true.
My second try at posting. This board is great, I'm so glad I stumbled on it last week. I came late to the Brokeback party, only seeing the movie in February (but five more times since then). There was so much to talk about and try to understand (intellectually and emotionally) and even though my boyfriend went with me to see it once (yes, a straight guy!) he didn't talk about it much. I didn't have any resource for getting my further questions about the movie answered. The movie has so much depth, so much to ponder. We were both confused about the Thanksgiving scenes and the scenes with Randall (the other couple at the Texas dance). I've read everything in this topic and really appreciate everyone's enlightening opinions.
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this whole film is speculation
:-)
Cool observation!
But I think it's not really that the whole film is speculation, but that one of its major themes - one of the themes that is strongest and most effectively portrayed - is the chasm of unspoken and unarticulated feelings that exist in relationships. Aside from the tragedy of the love arc, there is the tragedy of so much being unspoken - unintended rifts in communication or years' worth of hesitation to confront or confess feelings. It is precisely because of this factor of "the unspoken" that the movie feels sooooooo real. It is the unspoken in real life that causes an enormous amount of tragic unhappiness.
This particular movie is unique in that it maintains that particular aspect of its realism to a degree that no other movie has before. It's what makes the movie awesome and it is in this respect that it is groundbreaking even moreso than the manner in which it portrays gay characters. Its realistic portrayal of the emotional lives of its characters is stunningly new in its depth and its consistency.
IMNSHO
(in my not so humble opinion)
LOL
Gosh, I would never have thought that, after all the wonderful observations about the film I've read since I came in here, I'd still find something so startlingly new to think about.
I think you've just done for me. It is precisely that enormous amount of tragic unhappiness caused by unspoken, the uncommunicated, that makes this movie speak to me with such eloquence. I have never come across another film or story that has expressed this in such a realistic way. I certainly agree that it is this, combined with how wonderfully the cast and crew fleshed this out, which makes the film groundbreaking more so than the gay issues.
brokebackbeauty, what you wrote actually gave me goosebumps when I read it. Talk about revelation....thanks!
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BBB, I think your observation about the film dealing with the theme of inarticulateness in relationships is very true and one not explored here before.
As human beings, many of us try to avoid conflict with those who are close to us. I do it myself many times.
I often wonder why so many people expect these two working class, uneducated ranch hands to be so advanced in their communications and in their processing of thier own thoughts and feelings. IMO, many expect Jack and Ennis to be much more fully realized and much more highly functioning than we ourselves are in our more advanced day and age. It is hard for any of us to find words to express love, hurt, anger, joy, sadness, and sorrow. How much harder would it be for Jack and Ennis? I think for them, love really is a force of nature that sweeps them along in its path.
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I often wonder why so many people expect these two working class, uneducated ranch hands to be so advanced in their communications and in their processing of thier own thoughts and feelings. IMO, many expect Jack and Ennis to be much more fully realized and much more highly functioning than we ourselves are in our more advanced day and age. It is hard for any of us to find words to express love, hurt, anger, joy, sadness, and sorrow. How much harder would it be for Jack and Ennis? I think for them, love really is a force of nature that sweeps them along in its path.
I agree with you Pete. It seems as though so many people, who I suspect are under a certain age, just can't seem to grasp that Jack and Ennis are in another time and age much different from the world around them today. They expect them to behave and think the way many people do today and criticize them for not doing so. I have read posts asking why they didn't call help/support lines, why they didn't use condoms, etc. We can't expect them to behave or think in ways that would be alien to them back then.
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But you know the point where the scene loses me is when Lureen's father backs down so easily. You almost (not quite) feel sorry for him. I guess he's been bluff and bluster all along.
As someone who has lived with very domineering people, I've noticed that when someone stands up to them unexpectedly, they can back down out of sheer astonishment - something has happened outside their frame of reference.
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It seems as though so many people, who I suspect are under a certain age, just can't seem to grasp that Jack and Ennis are in another time and age much different from the world around them today. They expect them to behave and think the way many people do today and criticize them for not doing so. I have read posts asking why they didn't call help/support lines, why they didn't use condoms, etc. We can't expect them to behave or think in ways that would be alien to them back then.
Actually, as I learned working in a Living History museum (mid-19th century), that isn't limited to younger people. One of the most frustrating things about trying to communicate history and its meaning is the tendency of people to interpret the truism "human nature never changes" to mean that culture doesn't affect how people think and interact. There's a tendency to put contemporary thoughts and feelings into the brains and psyches of people in different times and cultures; and that tendency is more pronounced when the past era is recent enough to be within living memory.
Some of the reactions to these two men getting married despite their powerful attraction to each other don't take into account (or aren't aware of) the fact that in 1963, homosexuality was considered a mental disorder at worst and an intransigent consequence of a bad environment at best. There are echoes of that even now, with the use of terms like "lifestyle" to imply that gay people are basically just straight people "behaving badly." In 1963, if a young man who'd had a summer romance with another young man were to confide in anyone who did counseling (a psychoanalyst, psychologist, clergyman who did counseling, etc.) they likely would have been advised to do exactly what Ennis, and to a lesser extent Jack, did: get married, have kids, "you'll get over it."
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Marge, that is exactly what I was referring to. You are so right in what you wrote and your occupation exposes you to it every day. I referred to younger people only because I work with them and because I am old enough to remember those days. These days young people to me are already in their 40's.
Unfortunately many people also don't know that many things we take for granted today just weren't available or easy to find back then. That was my reference to the posts about condoms and help lines. Today they are sections in supermarket aisles with a wide selection. Back then you had to get them at the pharmacy counter from the pharmacist or from a machine in a gas station or bar. That was a daunting task for most 19 year olds as Ennis and Jack were in 1963. And most people thought of them as contraception, not as something to prevent disease. Help lines you could call to discuss your issues?
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[...]Help lines you could call to discuss your issues?
I guess the help line for gay guys then, was the line waiting for the pay phone at the lockup, on which you called a lawyer when you were arrested for lewd behaviour. That was about it.
Dal
p.s. Hey I'm an expert I see, so better start to take my postings very seriously!
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Forget the past.. has anyone been to Wyoming recently? I have. Not exactly gay friendly. If I were gay in Wyoming I would not be too quick to advertise it. (I hope this post doesnt offend anyone.. I have some great friends from Wyoming.. one of them is a Rodeo Queen... she wears sparkly cowgirl boots and big belt buckles... and dates a bull rider... lucky!) :)
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Watching BBM on PPV in my hotel...that brief Mexico scene...they eyes and nod, then the glance Jack makes as they disappear into the darkness...sadness, frustration, longing, lust, anger, grieving...there is so much in that tiny little scene...and then the cut to the turkey and the encounter with the "stud duck"...Jack hates himself for standing up to the ass hole but does it.
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The last time I saw BBM, I was able to get a SAG DVD to watch at home (while waiting for the release of the DVD for my own copy)
I watched the tire iron scene in slo-mo....anyone else think that was actually Jake G in the sequence? I saw 2 closeups of a face with thick hairy eyebrows..very disturbing..in the movie theater it goes so quickly you can't tell....
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I have a question and hope it hasn´t been asked before... Very much at the beginning we see Ennis in his tent carving a little wooden horse. In the end we see Ennis in Jack´s room, tenderly picking up a little Lucky-Luke-style horse with a rider. First, I am so touched by the little pice of art Ennis does, and do you think it is the same horse? I doubt it because the horse in Jack´s room does not look self made, but I am not 100% sure.
Something else - I know it has been mentioned once but not solved yet I think. The handwriting on the postcard Jack sends Ennis (saying he´ll visit him) and on the postcard Ennis writes to Jack (which comes back with the stamp :'( ) were obviously written by the same person (see the writing on the name "Ennis" on both cards, the "E" and the "s"). Do you think it is a goof? I already asked IMBD but they haven´t listed it yet as goof. Or did they want to portray that they both had handwritings which look like the handwritings of men who are not used to write much (very "school"-style). But then again, when Ennis writes "you bet", it´s a complete other handwriting. More open and round.
the horses look quite different so probably not the same exact figure, but seems like an obvious reference back to the carefree time on BBM when they were younger (as well as a common love of the cowboy/horse when both Ennis and Jack were young and growing up)
I always wondered about the handwriting on the postcards as well...it does seem like the same handwriting, doesn't it?
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In the scene where Ennis is working on the road, after leaving BBM, the guy he is working with is droning on and Ennis stops work and looks towards his right, into the distance.
I haven't managed to notice while watching BBM - is this where the mountains are? Presumably Ennis is thinking about Jack here?
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Ennis seems a fish out of water when away from nature and livestock...and I think you're right that he would much rather be in the mountains or on a ranch, than on a roadcrew...I'm sure Ennis was thinking about Jack and how nice it was back on the mountain
As Annie Proulx writes, Ennis and Jack were both chasing this fading cowboy lifestyle, even though more and more ranches were dying off in Wyoming at this time. Yet Ennis never gets past temp ranch hand status, while Jack was really just a show-cowboy at the rodeo
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In the scene where Ennis is working on the road, after leaving BBM, the guy he is working with is droning on and Ennis stops work and looks towards his right, into the distance.
??? ???
I haven't seen this! What part of the movie is it in?
Choi oi, don't tell me I saw a butchered version! That makes me look forward to the DVD even more.
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Hi,
does anyone else completely well-up everytime Ennis recounts his tale about the two old tough guys who were shacked up together? That flashback, though wholly separate from the tale of love, is intricately woven into Ennis's character, and gives us some insight into why he is the clenched up fist that he is.
That scene hurts. This is where the root of the tragedy begins, in my view. I can't watch it without feeling overwhelmed by sadness and regret.
Hi Soylent
I react much the same way.
There are dozens of moments in the movie that are deeply moving, and this is one of the deepest because it both contributes to Ennis being so closed down and is one of the broader references to the horrific violence of hate crimes. Our sympathy for the fictional character combines with enormous sadness and anger over the very real phenomenon of societal rejection to make this scene hurt intensely. For me, it's the combination of enormously effective fictional drama combining with deep-rooted reality that gives such a scene such staggering power.
The same reaction occurs for me during the scene where Jack returns to Aguirre to ask if there's any work up on Brokeback (his 3rd summer, seeking Ennis) when Aguirre reveals his disdain and during the scene of the murder of Jack.
I find these particularly powerful because of the combination of the pain (or even death) that the fictional character we love so much is experiencing and the illustration in these scenes of the overwhelming pain, sadness and tragedy of society's rejection of a lifestyle.
Hugs.
Thanks Soylent and brokeback beauty for illustrating one of the many riddles and mysteries of this one of a kind movie and event. The scene of the dead and tortured rancher is in a sense the "curse" almost in an operatic sense that hangs over the movie. In this case the spector of the tire-iron functions in much the same way as did the hangman's noose in old westerns. In Ennis's mind this image haunts him through much of the movie, because his father before him, willed it so. Remember! This curse is in Ennis's mind so that's why I firmly believe that Jack couldn't have been murdered with the tire-iron. And if it really was a murder, why would Lureen try to hide it? It would've been all over the papers and news and repeating a rehearsed story would appear useless against common knowledge, and why would Lureen try to protect Ennis's feelings from the truth? She didn't owe him any special sensitivity, and as his 20 year friend how could she lie to him about so horrible an event. Any how that's my view from out the blue bird's window. Thanks, friends.
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I have another question (and hope I am not repeating) - when Alma asks Ennis who Jack is, he quite spontanously says he was a fishing buddy. Why doesn´t he say "He´s the guy I was herding sheep with?" I mean - Alma must know Ennis was on Brokeback Mountain as they were already engaged then. When your partner is away for work for such a long time, wouldn´t you ask, how was work, were you there alone, ah, you were with another cowboy, what was his name - not out of jealousy, purely out of interest! Did Ennis never ever talk about that job at all? If he had talked, she would know who Jack is.
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Given the nature of his relationship with Jack I find it entirely plausible that Ennis never told ANYONE about Jack, even to say he was another sheepherder on Brokeback Mountain.
By saying the lie that Jack was a "fishing buddy" instead of another sheepherder, Ennis maintains a safe isolation of that relationship, probably even to himself.
The last thing he wants is anybody knowing of his summer on Brokeback Mountain with Jack. For instance, Jack knew what he was doing when he didn't mention to Ennis about his conversation with Aguiire the next summer. He wasn't gonna spook his man.
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Yes, that makes sense... I mean, I am sure we all have been in a situation where we wanted to keep a relationship or a feeling secret and we just knew that alone when speaking out his/her name, everyone would read in our face like in an open book...
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That too, Stina.
The lie to Alma also seals the deal to himself that he wants to see Jack again and is hoping that he and Jack will have sex. After all, if Ennis only intention is to have a friendly beer with an old buddy, why not just tell Alma that AND that he was a fellow sheepherder? He won't because he intends to conduct an affair with Jacj even if it's just that night.
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In the scene where Ennis is working on the road, after leaving BBM, the guy he is working with is droning on and Ennis stops work and looks towards his right, into the distance.
??? ???
I haven't seen this! What part of the movie is it in?
Choi oi, don't tell me I saw a butchered version! That makes me look forward to the DVD even more.
This is during the four years after Ennis and jack leave BBM, before the reunion. It's a very short scene - Ennis and another man are raking over a new road surface.
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does anyone else completely well-up everytime Ennis recounts his tale about the two old tough guys who were shacked up together? That flashback, though wholly separate from the tale of love, is intricately woven into Ennis's character, and gives us some insight into why he is the clenched up fist that he is.
That scene hurts. This is where the root of the tragedy begins, in my view. I can't watch it without feeling overwhelmed by sadness and regret.
I was reading an interview or review these days in which someone stated that Ennis' memory of the "two old birds" having gotten killed because they were homosexuals and Ennis' dad himself having killed them might not have been a real event but something Ennis had been imagining... Now that's a totally different perspective from what I've been reading before (please bear with me, new to the fandom and still getting acquainted with it, it's probably all been discussed before). But what would that mean? That in Ennis' mind - at a young age - society's or his environment's general attitude towards relationships between members of the same sex transcending mere friendship had coalesced to form such a gruesome memory?
Need to read the short story, maybe it could shed some light on this subject, but I actually found myself thinking about that reviewer's point. Memories tend to be volatile and quite a selective process. And what about that bit - his own dad killing the two men? Anyway, if that memory wasn't based on a real event, or, for example, based on a story his dad had told him at a young age and that started to grow in his mind to form a "real" event - than that's really telling us something about the subconscious "conditioning" he was subjected to in his environment (a "conditioning" less prevalent in our society, but certainly prevalent in Jack's and Ennis times, I guess), nurturing in him a deep sense of fear of any same sex attraction. Which is quite tragic considering that fear will ultimately cost him the love of his life...
So maybe Ennis just assumed Jack's death had occured by the hands of some rabid haters of homosexuals. Still, if Jack was with Randall out there (and the mechanics saw them touching, etc.) like it says in the story (I think) then Jack being bludgeoned to death might be a possibility... But why would Lureen lie then or is she as much a product of society as Alma and Ennis are, and doesn't want to address the things "one doesn't speak or think aloud of"?
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I have another question (and hope I am not repeating) - when Alma asks Ennis who Jack is, he quite spontanously says he was a fishing buddy. Why doesn´t he say "He´s the guy I was herding sheep with?" I mean - Alma must know Ennis was on Brokeback Mountain as they were already engaged then. When your partner is away for work for such a long time, wouldn´t you ask, how was work, were you there alone, ah, you were with another cowboy, what was his name - not out of jealousy, purely out of interest! Did Ennis never ever talk about that job at all? If he had talked, she would know who Jack is.
I think Ennis cannily said he was a fishing buddy because it would give him an excuse to get away with Jack...which I think he had already decided was going to happen while he was awaiting Jack's visit. I think he knew he was going to get Jack back - at least temporarily- and he was going to figure away to get away with him for a few days...
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I think Ennis cannily said he was a fishing buddy because it would give him an excuse to get away with Jack...which I think he had already decided was going to happen while he was awaiting Jack's visit. I think he knew he was going to get Jack back - at least temporarily- and he was going to figure away to get away with him for a few days...
I've gone back and forth on this myself. Was Ennis merely trying to distance himself from this very secret relationship or was he already "setting things up" for the relationship to continue? His excitement at getting the postcard speaks to the latter but it seems almost too calculating and sneaky for Ennis to me. Perhaps I've "underestimated" him? I mean, this is a man who can't come up w/ a better explanation for not inviting Jack in for coffee than - "He's from Texas."
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OK, just finished my 5th viewing. There are so many new things you pick up on when watching this movie repeatedly. It also makes you realize how important each scene, each word, and each look from the characters play such a central part to understanding this complex movie. One of the things I had noticed for the first time on my 4th viewing and paid close attention to tonight, was the scene where Ennis comes back downstairs from Jack's room with the two shirts. If you watch him....you notice how he takes the shirts, balled up, and protectively holds them to his right side.....almost out of sight and away from Jack's father. You can see from Ennis that if Jack's father tried to stop him from taking the shirts, Ennis would have ripped him a new asshole. Ennis can only be thinking.."you old bastard, you may not let me take the ashes like I want, but you will NOT get these shirts, so don't even think I'm letting them go".
I just have to say....each time I watch this, I am more and more impressed with how well Heath Ledger played Ennis's character. It's beyond me why he didn't win more best actor awards.
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OK, just finished my 5th viewing. There are so many new things you pick up on when watching this movie repeatedly. It also makes you realize how important each scene, each word, and each look from the characters play such a central part to understanding this complex movie. One of the things I had noticed for the first time on my 4th viewing and paid close attention to tonight, was the scene where Ennis comes back downstairs from Jack's room with the two shirts. If you watch him....you notice how he takes the shirts, balled up, and protectively holds them to his right side.....almost out of sight and away from Jack's father. You can see from Ennis that if Jack's father tried to stop him from taking the shirts, Ennis would have ripped him a new asshole. Ennis can only be thinking.."you old bastard, you may not let me take the ashes like I want, but you will NOT get these shirts, so don't even think I'm letting them go".
I just have to say....each time I watch this, I am more and more impressed with how well Heath Ledger played Ennis's character. It's beyond me why he didn't win more best actor awards.
i think it was a huge step for ennis to take the shirts and walk back downstairs without trying to hide them. he was always afraid of people "knowing" and labeling him "qeer".
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i think it was a huge step for ennis to take the shirts and walk back downstairs without trying to hide them. he was always afraid of people "knowing" and labeling him "qeer".
This scene when Ennis goes back to Jack's folks to get Jack’s ashes ranks way up on my list of important scenes. Jack's mother, played by Roberta Maxwell, gave a stellar performance. Nothing added to her by the script, but it is what was NOT in her lines that swept me. It was as if she already knew Ennis was the love of Jack's life, and how there was something up there that Jack kept in a safe place for him to come and get. Of course Jack couldn't have kept these shirts at home with his wife, so he had them kept in a safe place. Also, when Ennis came back down with the shirts, there were no words needed. Jack's mother gave that meek smile to Ennis as if to say, "Ah, I see you found what Jack wanted you to have." This seemed to give both Ennis and her silent closure on acceptance of their relationship, and that how still, that secret would still be kept. When Ennis was out on the door step, signaling with a nod and a lift of the paper bag containing the shirts, "Thank you for your son. ", and she back to him, "Thank you for loving my son" ... as if she were saying goodbye to both of them. Even though Jack's last wishes would not be followed out, more importantly a recognition of the love between Ennis and Jack would be understood.
Roberta Maxwell has been included in my round of post cards I send out. I wish I could sit down with her and talk about what her performance has meant to me. God, I wish I could scratch away the blackness between them and me and physically express my gratitude to all of the crew and cast.
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I find the whole "Divorce Mix up" scene heartbreaking. Jack is soooo excited and happy, it is positively bursting with joy on the drive up. He thinks he may finally be getting what he dreamed of...a life with Ennis. (Methinks he should've written or called before driving 14 hrs to see him!!)
The way Jack goes from being so happy to being utterly devastated is hard to bare. The way he cries in the car is awful but you can also see a flash of anger in him too, because right after he wipes his eyes, you hear the car speed up. Then the look on his face as he walks through the town in Mexico is so sad. You can see that he hates himself and what he is doing. I'm not even sure I know why he does it.
I love the thanksgiving scenes. I was cheering when Jack stood up to his bastard of a father-in-law. You have wanted him to do that for so long. But to Jack, this kind of confrontation was no natural to him, hence the whole rubbing his forehead with his had, which was shaking slightly. It was almost as if he was thinking "Did that really happen? Did I just do that?"
The Del Mar thanksgiving was interesting. Ennis was being all cute and positive, talking about his saddle bronc career to his girls, who looked at him with such love and admiration (Especially Alma Jr). This hurt Alma a lot, because the children can't see any fault in him, when she knows the truth. Ennis then saying "Once burned" to Alma's suggestion he should get married again, was the final straw. She felt like she was being blamed for the collapse of their marriage and that hurt her a lot and filled her with a lot of anger.
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Please talk about the scene at Jack's parents in that thread.
This thread is for all the smaller scenes that don't have separate threads.
Thanks!
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I also love Jake's acting in the whole Divorce mix-up thread from when he is happily whistling along to King of the Road to when he is crying to A Love that Will Never Grow Old.
Interesting tidbit from the Department of Obscure Facts Related to Brokeback Mountain:
The road sign that Jack passes when he has decided to go to a male prostitute says Juarez and then something about the Mexican border. Well in the Johnny Cash song included in Walk the Line where he "shot his woman down" they catch up with him in Juarez, Mexico where he is on a cocaine and whiskey binge and running from the law. So I wonder if that town had a general reputation as an "anything goes" sort of place. It has been questioned on this board how Ennis could know what they had in Mexico "for boys like you". And how Jack knew to head there in the first place.
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Wasn't sure where to put this.
I absolutely love Jack Twist's "Black Jack Lanza" black leather sports jacket, black shirt, and jeans in the scene with LaShawn and Randall.
I believe Jack is the only person wearing black even in a roomful of extras. LOVE THAT!
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JACK TWIST'S FIRST TRUCK FOR SALE!!!! The 1950 Gmc Pickup that Jack Twist drove in the beginning of the movie is for sale on ebay right now!! For anyone wanting to make an impression this would be a good truck to take a look at. It is the black truck. Go to ebay and search "GMC half-ton" and right now it is at low $$ so check it out!
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I realize that this is going to sound crude and troll-esque, especially since I'm a newbie to this forum and it IS a bit on the raunchy side. But I'm actually very curious about everybody's opinions: when Jack hires the Mexican prostitute, do you think he topped or bottomed? I mean, from your view of Jack and how you think he was feeling at the time?
Also, a more fact-based question: when they walk into the dark alley, where are they going? Is there a sort of brothel they're going to have sex in, or are they just having sex in a car/the alley/???
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No worries, Kragey, this speculation is neither crude nor troll-esque. However, the better place to discuss is is in the Jake and Ennis's Sex Life thread of Juicy Bits, under Gay, Bi, Whatever. There's plenty of speculation about all aspects! Check it out.
My own speculation is that Jack assumed the dominant role.
I think one can only speculate about where they were going - they disappear in the dark.The act itself is more significant than its location. It could have been anyplace. Paid sex happens in dark alleyways (at least someone told me that once).
Des
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Paid sex happens in dark alleyways (at least someone told me that once).
Des
It certainly does, namely in economically depressed areas, which is why I was wondering. =D
I'm sorry if the former question didn't belong in this thread; I just assumed it would go here because it's the "alley scene."
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An Update from the Ulitmate Brokeback Forum Team at www.davecullen.com
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this whole film is speculation
:-)
Cool observation!
But I think it's not really that the whole film is speculation, but that one of its major themes - one of the themes that is strongest and most effectively portrayed - is the chasm of unspoken and unarticulated feelings that exist in relationships. Aside from the tragedy of the love arc, there is the tragedy of so much being unspoken - unintended rifts in communication or years' worth of hesitation to confront or confess feelings. It is precisely because of this factor of "the unspoken" that the movie feels sooooooo real. It is the unspoken in real life that causes an enormous amount of tragic unhappiness.
This particular movie is unique in that it maintains that particular aspect of its realism to a degree that no other movie has before. It's what makes the movie awesome and it is in this respect that it is groundbreaking even moreso than the manner in which it portrays gay characters. Its realistic portrayal of the emotional lives of its characters is stunningly new in its depth and its consistency.
IMNSHO
(in my not so humble opinion)
LOL
Gosh, I would never have thought that, after all the wonderful observations about the film I've read since I came in here, I'd still find something so startlingly new to think about.
I think you've just done for me. It is precisely that enormous amount of tragic unhappiness caused by unspoken, the uncommunicated, that makes this movie speak to me with such eloquence. I have never come across another film or story that has expressed this in such a realistic way. I certainly agree that it is this, combined with how wonderfully the cast and crew fleshed this out, which makes the film groundbreaking more so than the gay issues.
brokebackbeauty, what you wrote actually gave me goosebumps when I read it. Talk about revelation....thanks!
This sense of the uncommunicated that you mention comes up in Annie Proulx's interview with Bookworm
www.kcrw.org/cgi-bin/db/kcrw.pl?show_code=bw&air_date=1/19/06&tmplt_type=sho
Interviewer: For me it's the longing for love that the story captures. This huge sense that these men - whatever lies they tell or refusals they make - this love is seemingly hardwired into them and is unmitigatable, unavoidable, unignorable ...
Proulx ... and inexpressible.
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I also love Jake's acting in the whole Divorce mix-up thread from when he is happily whistling along to King of the Road to when he is crying to A Love that Will Never Grow Old.
.
I remember reading somewhere that Heath said he thought Jake's acting was fantastic in that scene, when he's driving away from Ennis and he starts to cry.
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I also love Jake's acting in the whole Divorce mix-up thread from when he is happily whistling along to King of the Road to when he is crying to A Love that Will Never Grow Old.
.
I remember reading somewhere that Heath said he thought Jake's acting was fantastic in that scene, when he's driving away from Ennis and he starts to cry.
That is the most realistic portrayl of being heartbroken I have ever seen put down on film. In that very moment, I can literally feel in in my bones how much Jack loves Ennis and craves his love and attention. I had a physical ache watching that scene. Damn, why did they give that Best Supporting Actor Oscar to Clooney instead of Jake? :'(
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I also love Jake's acting in the whole Divorce mix-up thread from when he is happily whistling along to King of the Road to when he is crying to A Love that Will Never Grow Old.
.
I remember reading somewhere that Heath said he thought Jake's acting was fantastic in that scene, when he's driving away from Ennis and he starts to cry.
That is the most realistic portrayl of being heartbroken I have ever seen put down on film. In that very moment, I can literally feel in in my bones how much Jack loves Ennis and craves his love and attention. I had a physical ache watching that scene. Damn, why did they give that Best Supporting Actor Oscar to Clooney instead of Jake? :'(
Clooney's getting up there, but our Jakey still has a looooot of time to go for it again. =)
I absolutely love how BBM has so many contrast scenes; for example, there's Jack driving down, all happy and unbreakable, and then there's him driving home several minutes later, broken. But there's also the opening scene, where Ennis is really quiet and basically hides under his hat, Jack kicks his truck, swears, then leans against the side all cocky and stares Ennis down. Le GUH.
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I was looking at some stilsl of the beating death and at one point one of the attackers stomps on Jacks groan.
As it was with Earl, that part of his anatomy was deliberately targeted and attacked.
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I also noticed the stomping of Jack's groin when I went recently to see the movie. The audience gasped in shock both at the start of the scene, and at that precise moment. (The first few times I saw the movie, I sort of tried not to watch the scene as it was happening, and so I hadn't noticed initially...) I think it was a rather mixed audience, as I noted some inappropriate (at least to me) chuckling during some scenes. Nothing inappropriate noted during this scene, just shock.
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I also love Jake's acting in the whole Divorce mix-up thread from when he is happily whistling along to King of the Road to when he is crying to A Love that Will Never Grow Old.
.
I remember reading somewhere that Heath said he thought Jake's acting was fantastic in that scene, when he's driving away from Ennis and he starts to cry.
That is the most realistic portrayal of being heartbroken I have ever seen put down on film. In that very moment, I can literally feel in in my bones how much Jack loves Ennis and craves his love and attention. I had a physical ache watching that scene. Damn, why did they give that Best Supporting Actor Oscar to Clooney instead of Jake? :'(
Going from the heights of elation, rushing to the side of his lover, visualizing all you ever wanted about to begin, to the depths of despair, rejection, all hopes dashed, humiliation inside of 3 minutes. How could it not feel like a tire iron blow? Jack in that moment might have preferred an actual physical injury than this. The whole scene killed me but the his crying threw me over the cliff.
Don't get me started on the whole Oscar thing again. I went last night and at the end felt a seething white-hot fury over the awards.
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[. But there's also the opening scene, where Ennis is really quiet and basically hides under his hat, Jack kicks his truck, swears, then leans against the side all cocky and stares Ennis down. Le GUH.
If I were Ennis I would have not have survived that stare... my gosh... the whole time Aguiere is talking about 'one of you has to sleep with the sheep', I would have been giving Jack looks like "nah... let's let the sheep fend for themselves... I'll meet you in my sleeping back tommorow night at 10 pm..." then I would have winked at Jake... (and that, my friends, is why no one asked me to be Ennis...the lack of self control around truck leaning, staring down men.. and I'm a girl, so there went my chances with this movie... damn!) :D
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(and that, my friends, is why no one asked me to be Ennis...the lack of self control around truck leaning, staring down men.. and I'm a girl, so there went my chances with this movie... damn!) :D
Not so! Drag can be very convincing.
I probably would've just dry humped him up against the truck. Ennis' self-control absolutely amazes me.
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k. Ennis' self-control absolutely amazes me.
I know! I am so with you on that one, Kragey... Jake Gyllenhall.. just one look from those eyes and I would have passed out... they should hand out this opening scene to straight men so that they can get a clue as to how to look at women and have them fall at their feet... ;)
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You all gotta check out this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yi6i8bfwV-w
It's the most beautyful video that I've ever seen on youtube and the music matches the scene perfectly. It's the music that Annie Proulx heard over and over again while writing the dozy embrace paragraph. I think everything is in it. Just go watch it, would you?
edit: um sorry! just noticed that there's an extra thread for their last scene, too.
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You all gotta check out this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yi6i8bfwV-w
It's the most beautyful video that I've ever seen on youtube and the music matches the scene perfectly. It's the music that Annie Proulx heard over and over again while writing the dozy embrace paragraph. I think everything is in it. Just go watch it, would you?
edit: um sorry! just noticed that there's an extra thread for their last scene, too.
Oh my. That is beautiful music and the slow motion film is heartbreaking. I wish they could have used that music in the film at some point.
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You all gotta check out this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yi6i8bfwV-w
It's the most beautyful video that I've ever seen on youtube and the music matches the scene perfectly. It's the music that Annie Proulx heard over and over again while writing the dozy embrace paragraph. I think everything is in it. Just go watch it, would you?
edit: um sorry! just noticed that there's an extra thread for their last scene, too.
Oh my. That is beautiful music and the slow motion film is heartbreaking. I wish they could have used that music in the film at some point.
wow! Beautiful, thanks Kokoro... just when I think I can't cry anymore over this movie... :'(
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Wasn't sure where to put this.
I absolutely love Jack Twist's "Black Jack Lanza" black leather sports jacket, black shirt, and jeans in the scene with LaShawn and Randall.
I believe Jack is the only person wearing black even in a roomful of extras. LOVE THAT!
Hey we chatted about the man in black over on another thread but we can expound here on it. Black Jack Lanza, that is perfect!
You know I gotta tell you if I came across anyone else wearing that get up I would laugh my head off but on him!... It's so naughty.
Maybe it is kinda like only Olympic level swimmers can pull off wearing Speedos without looking totally foolish.
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"Maybe it is kinda like only Olympic level swimmers can pull off wearing Speedos without looking totally foolish."
You've hit the nail on the head. It's Gyllenhaals reed slimness that really makes that outfit soar. Note when LaShawn and Lureen exit the dance and both Randall and Jack arise from the bench. Their is a full shot of Gyllenhaal and you can see exactly how very slim he is. Too slim for my taste but optimal for wearing an outfit like that.
In fact, I think the costume designer or whoever the person is who decides what the characters will wear is amazing. I never fail to be sruck by Ennis' basic cloth jacket in the "dozy embrace" scene. Watch for variations of that jacket to be on store hangers come fall.
Anyway, the clothes strike just the right note throughout the film.
EXCEPTION: I can only conclude that Ang Lee allowed Michelle Williams to come straight from her trailer bathroom on the set and report to the grocery store scene without stopping at wardrobe. That blue thing HAS to be a bathrobe.
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I have a question regarding the scene after Ennis's divorce, and Jack's comes by after he learns about it.
When Ennis apologizes to Jack he talks about the round-up that is coming, and then looks at a pick-up in the distance. I didn't really get that part? Can somebody explain this to me :-[ :-[
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JHL you are right about poor Alma and her wardrobe. After she had her kids she could never afford another hair cut, only bobby pins. Monroe gave her the cover-all to wear in the grocery store I bet, so she could keep her other clothes from getting dirty. Monroe liked her fine.
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I have a question regarding the scene after Ennis's divorce, and Jack's comes by after he learns about it.
When Ennis apologizes to Jack he talks about the round-up that is coming, and then looks at a pick-up in the distance. I didn't really get that part? Can somebody explain this to me :-[ :-[
That's always puzzled me too. I thought it was because Ennis would rather look anywhere than into Jack's eyes - he knew the hurt he was causing.
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I was pretty sure it was Ennis being all paranoid again - someone seeing him with Jack and guessing. And Jack had just said I asked all over town where to find you...
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I relate it to the fear of being found out--like when he wonders later if everyone knows... Jack has just said that he's asked about 10 people in town in order to find Ennis... To me it's a "what will the neighbors think" moment of tire-iron influenced panic, revealing Ennis' weakness, like "please, Jack, I can't be seen with you here..."
It's also immediately after that moment of silence, as the white truck passes, that Jack gives in, instead of trying to convince Ennis any further. It's all non-verbal.
Of course it could be nothing more than a "spacer" or generic cutaway--something the editor needed to structure a turning point, but... there's a lot of possible symbolism going on. Notice how the bottom half of the truck is obscured from view for much of its journey across the screen. The focus is on the truck windows, and what they might be able to see. And I always relate the bird flying overhead at the same time as a crow, a death symbol...
At least, that's what the editing seems to be saying. I'm not sure, however, that I can see it in Heath's performance, so whether the whole thing is a "stretch" or not is (like so many things) ambiguous...
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I have a question regarding the scene after Ennis's divorce, and Jack's comes by after he learns about it.
When Ennis apologizes to Jack he talks about the round-up that is coming, and then looks at a pick-up in the distance. I didn't really get that part? Can somebody explain this to me :-[ :-[
That's always puzzled me too. I thought it was because Ennis would rather look anywhere than into Jack's eyes - he knew the hurt he was causing.
I think that was another sign of how paranoid Ennis was about being "found out". He was afraid someone would see him with Jack and understand that they were lovers - as if there was a sign above their heads... Jack saw the way he looked at that pick-up, and understood what it meant, so he left. And cried his eyes out in the car. Poor baby... ;)
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Thank you lfnanna, adamblast, cms, and pjf for your insights. I didn't know what to think of that particular part, but indeed what you all are implying seems fair. :)
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EXCEPTION: I can only conclude that Ang Lee allowed Michelle Williams to come straight from her trailer bathroom on the set and report to the grocery store scene without stopping at wardrobe. That blue thing HAS to be a bathrobe.
That god-awful thing, something else to be burned with Lureen's weird skin tight poly shirt from the phone call scene.
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EXCEPTION: I can only conclude that Ang Lee allowed Michelle Williams to come straight from her trailer bathroom on the set and report to the grocery store scene without stopping at wardrobe. That blue thing HAS to be a bathrobe.
That god-awful thing, something else to be burned with Lureen's weird skin tight poly shirt from the phone call scene.
Don't get me started on Alma's wardrobe. What was that burnt pink/orange rag she wore during the Reunion scene? Was that her Sunday best? Geez, I guess Ennis really wasn't bringing in the dough. Even her wedding dress looked a bit drag. Michelle Williams is a beautiful woman; they really had to ugly her down for this role.
Now, back to Jack's leather ensemble. I couldn't help to think, boy wouldn't Ennis enjoy looking at Jack's ass in this getup? Vroom, vroom--it would have been another Reunion scene all over again!
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Yes, they did a great job of making Alma look miserable.......... I thought she looked rather hideous in the wedding scene. The only time I thought she looked okay was when she walked in to the apartment carrying groceries, and we notice that she doesn't hide the post card from Jack. (I so wonder why she wouldn't have thrown out the card... maybe she knew another one would come along eventually, or maybe she was in some state of denial...)
Anyhow, I of course concur that Michelle W is beautiful...
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EXCEPTION: I can only conclude that Ang Lee allowed Michelle Williams to come straight from her trailer bathroom on the set and report to the grocery store scene without stopping at wardrobe. That blue thing HAS to be a bathrobe.
That god-awful thing, something else to be burned with Lureen's weird skin tight poly shirt from the phone call scene.
Don't get me started on Alma's wardrobe. What was that burnt pink/orange rag she wore during the Reunion scene? Was that her Sunday best? Geez, I guess Ennis really wasn't bringing in the dough. Even her wedding dress looked a bit drag. Michelle Williams is a beautiful woman; they really had to ugly her down for this role.
Now, back to Jack's leather ensemble. I couldn't help to think, boy wouldn't Ennis enjoy looking at Jack's ass in this getup? Vroom, vroom--it would have been another Reunion scene all over again!
As bad as the dress was, what was that weird, sad, thing in her hair? Wire twisted with white ribbon with white doo-das in it? That was so sad. Ennis looked like a million dollars next to her.
I'm not sure how Ennis would have reacted to Black Leather Jack. Shock? Lust? I think Ennis would have a rather low key manner of dress no matter what his income. He is use to seeing his man with the "natural look", I wonder if he would be asking "what's with the get up anyway?" that is before he ripped it off Jack. ;)
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There was a background music in Mexico trip. I couldn't remember from where, but was pretty sure I knew it. Had to ask help from my Spanish neibour. Guess, what: it's a famous song sang by Sara Montiel in 50th ("Quizas, Quizas, Quizas"), became wery popular among gey people, was in Almodovar's "Bad Education" and is one of the most downloaded spanish songs from the E-net. BUT the lyrics just killed me: (in english its Perhaps, Perhaps, Perhaps)
If you can't make your mind up,
we'll never get started.
And I don't wanna wind up
being parted, broken-harted.
So if you really love me,
say yes.
But if you don't, dear,
confess.
And please don't tell me
perhaps, perhaps, perhaps.
http://www.phespirit.info/places/2000_07_havana_1.htm
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I've been at sound track forum, but I'm SO much obsessed with this song, just couldn't resist to post it here. And it took me several hours to find the whole version in th E-net. Here it is:
http://www.angelfire.com/tn3/nvt/quizasquizas.html
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There was a background music in Mexico trip. I couldn't remember from where, but was pretty sure I knew it. Had to ask help from my Spanish neibour. Guess, what: it's a famous song sang by Sara Montiel in 50th ("Quizas, Quizas, Quizas"), became wery popular among gey people, was in Almodovar's "Bad Education" and is one of the most downloaded spanish songs from the E-net. BUT the lyrics just killed me: (in english its Perhaps, Perhaps, Perhaps)
If you can't make your mind up,
we'll never get started.
And I don't wanna wind up
being parted, broken-harted.
So if you really love me,
say yes.
But if you don't, dear,
confess.
And please don't tell me
perhaps, perhaps, perhaps.
http://www.phespirit.info/places/2000_07_havana_1.htm
Hi Varvara - maybe you know this but the song was recorded in Spanish on an album I have called "Cole Espanol" by Nat King Cole. Also in English by Doris Day. Many others I'm sure.
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Had checked all of them, about 40 artists, but still can't find free download for the whole song by Rick Garsia. You know the site?
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Something on another thread made me think of the scene after J & E's Reunion getaway, when Ennis, Alma and the girls are sitting around their living room, Ennis on the couch, Alma knitting in a chair, and the girls playing with Barbies on the floor. Ennis looks so heartbroken and miserable, chain smoking and watching some detective show on tv. He's obviously upset/depressed about having to leave Jack. Alma mentions something about smartening up to go the church social, but Ennis refuses talking about the "fire and brimstone" crowd. Ennis must be thinking, maybe being paranoid too, that those churchgoers would condemn he and Jack for having their affair/being in love. He wants no part of it. This further serves to isolate and cause a chasm in he and Alma's marriage, as she is obviously pissed off he is not bothering to go (she should have figured out why after Reunion kiss). Anyway, this is interesting thing to me was at the end, it is Jacks' mom, who is part of the fire and brimstone crowd, who accepts the love between Jack and Ennis and shows compassion toward it. Maybe it's Ang Lee's way of saying, see Ennis you could have made it work, but you chose not to?
Also, I think this scene in a way serves to mirror the later dance scene with Jack and Lureen. Here is Ennis and Alma holed up in their apartment, no social life at all. Then, flash forward, we see Jack at this busy dance, socializing with his wife (and meeting Randall and LaShawn). Of course, this may be a reflection of Jack and Ennis' own personalities, the former outgoing, the later introverted, but I also think it shows the differences in the marriages. Maybe Jack held it together with Lureen for a reason; like he did with Ennis, maybe he is playing the passive role and being more accommodating to her needs. Sorry to ramble and sorry if this has been mentioned before.
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Something on another thread made me think of the scene after J & E's Reunion getaway, when Ennis, Alma and the girls are sitting around their living room, Ennis on the couch, Alma knitting in a chair, and the girls playing with Barbies on the floor. Ennis looks so heartbroken and miserable, chain smoking and watching some detective show on tv. He's obviously upset/depressed about having to leave Jack. Alma mentions something about smartening up to go the church social, but Ennis refuses talking about the "fire and brimstone" crowd. Ennis must be thinking, maybe being paranoid too, that those churchgoers would condemn he and Jack for having their affair/being in love. He wants no part of it. This further serves to isolate and cause a chasm in he and Alma's marriage, as she is obviously pissed off he is not bothering to go (she should have figured out why after Reunion kiss). Anyway, this is interesting thing to me was at the end, it is Jacks' mom, who is part of the fire and brimstone crowd, who accepts the love between Jack and Ennis and shows compassion toward it. Maybe it's Ang Lee's way of saying, see Ennis you could have made it work, but you chose not to?
Also, I think this scene in a way serves to mirror the later dance scene with Jack and Lureen. Here is Ennis and Alma holed up in their apartment, no social life at all. Then, flash forward, we see Jack at this busy dance, socializing with his wife (and meeting Randall and LaShawn). Of course, this may be a reflection of Jack and Ennis' own personalities, the former outgoing, the later introverted, but I also think it shows the differences in the marriages. Maybe Jack held it together with Lureen for a reason; like he did with Ennis, maybe he is playing the passive role and being more accommodating to her needs. Sorry to ramble and sorry if this has been mentioned before.
I thought about his disinclination to join in what may have been the only social event in town. I thought it sad that Ennis wouldn’t allow himself the opportunity to find some friends and a bit of social life. While not being a churchgoer myself given the situation even I would have jumped at the chance. I think you are on to something regarding Ennis’ paranoia around that crowd and I loved how Jack’s mother, as a devote Pentecostal and the last person one would expect to accept, would not only accept into her house her son’s lover but would give comfort to and the most meaningful of tokens, the shirts, to.
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I had no idea which thread to put this in, but I had to get it off my chest: After Bobby is born (hospital scene or at Jack and Lureen's house--not sure of locale), when LD and Mrs. Newsome visit Lureen and Bobby, does anyone else find it mildly creepy that LD tells his daughter "good job, ol' girl. He looks just like his grandpa." One, calling your daughter "old girl," what the hell is that? Honey, pumpkin, maybe, but old girl? Almost sounds like "my old lady." Plus, saying that the kid looked like him? What was that all about? Like his genes (via Lureen) overroad any genes that Jack may have contributed to the kid? Kinda icky (now just to be clear, I am not insinuating that incest is going on b/w Lureen and LD [double ick], I'm just saying that man is a nut case).
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One, calling your daughter "old girl," what the hell is that? Honey, pumpkin, maybe, but old girl? Almost sounds like "my old lady."
That must be Texan slang, because when you look at the book, Jack says to Ennis:Tell you what, I married a cute little old Texas girl down in Childress—Lureen.”
Thanks for info. Jack is married to Lureen, so technically she is his "old girl." But LD is her dad. Ick!
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What was that all about? Like his genes (via Lureen) overroad any genes that Jack may have contributed to the kid? Kinda icky (now just to be clear, I am not insinuating that incest is going on b/w Lureen and LD [double ick], I'm just saying that man is a nut case).
In another thread someone said that they thought Randall and Ennis should get together... that gives me the same feelings as when I think of the Lureen and LD... yuck. :P Anyway, I think her parents are so weird because she is an only child.. and LD probably always wanted a boy... that is my only explanation..NOW I really am going to bed.. I keep falling asleep and then getting up to check updated posts like an absolute lunatic... it doesn't help that I can't sleep thinking about the DVD coming out tommorow... :)
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One, calling your daughter "old girl," what the hell is that? Honey, pumpkin, maybe, but old girl? Almost sounds like "my old lady."
That must be Texan slang, because when you look at the book, Jack says to Ennis:Tell you what, I married a cute little old Texas girl down in Childress—Lureen.”
Lureen was from an "old Texas" family, more than likely. She could not have been old while still young enough to be called a "girl" by a man who was (only) around 23 years old.
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Gad, all this time I thought he said "little girl". That is what is in the screenplay.
Oh, and I think it was their bedroom in their house, there seems to be a whole lot of personal items around, like the 8x10 photo of them taken of them on the nightstand to Lureen's right. Then there was that god-awful pink wall paint. Ick! Could you imagine putting a husband in that room? That was a little girl's room not a room for adult married people to have sex in. That alone would have precluded any dancin’. Sorry don't mean to rant, but I have delicate sensibilities here when it comes to home decor. Says the woman with cat hair tumbleweeds rolling across her hardwood floor because she can’t leave a computer long enough to run a Swiffer across the floor
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In another thread someone said that they thought Randall and Ennis should get together... that gives me the same feelings as when I think of the Lureen and LD... yuck.
That was me. What's wrong with poor old Randall? He seems a nice enough guy. I'd like to think of Ennis getting together with SOMEONE after the end of the film, and Randall's the only contender we see. They could have talked about Jack, and I think they'd have got on OK. Not that it would happen, due to geography if nothing else.
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I'm trying to think of something nice to say about old LD, and see things from his point of view. He is such an unlikeable character. I suppose it must have been difficult for him - he had this gorgeous, lively daughter, her life ahead of her, who marries someone who LD doesn't like and doesn't think is good enough for her. It's not clear if he knew if Jack was gay or not, but it looks like he has spotted some clues - no more children, the coldness in their relationship, the Freddy Mercury moustache, etc. Either way, I'm sure he knows that Jack isn't right for her. When he blows up in the Thanksgiving scene, notice that he [LD] is alone - nobody is backing him up. I almost felt slightly sorry for him then.
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I'm trying to think of something nice to say about old LD, and see things from his point of view. He is such an unlikeable character. I suppose it must have been difficult for him - he had this gorgeous, lively daughter, her life ahead of her, who marries someone who LD doesn't like and doesn't think is good enough for her. It's not clear if he knew if Jack was gay or not, but it looks like he has spotted some clues - no more children, the coldness in their relationship, the Freddy Mercury moustache, etc. Either way, I'm sure he knows that Jack isn't right for her. When he blows up in the Thanksgiving scene, notice that he [LD] is alone - nobody is backing him up. I almost felt slightly sorry for him then.
Desecra, you are a better woman than I. I don't find too many redeeming qualities in LD. Maybe his part in the movie is too brief to totally flesh out his character, but what the filmmakers chose to tell us about him is not too flattering. I, for one, didn't feel like he even gave Jack a chance. His attitude was "you're poor, white, rodeo trash and not good enough for my princess Lureen." He belittles Jack after Bobby is born by only referring to him as "Rodeo" and throwing Jack his car keys like Jack is his paid help. Likewise, in the Thanksgiving scene, he belittles Jack's masculinity. Maybe the one redeeming thing I could possibly say about LD is maybe, like you say, he sensed Jack wasn't right for Lureen on more than just a social status level (eg., Jack was gay), and he was trying to protect Lureen. I don't know if the movie showed us enough to make that assumption.
P.S. LOL, at Jack's Freddy Mercury mustache. I so wanted to shave it off! I like my Jack clean shaven. :P
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That was me. What's wrong with poor old Randall? He seems a nice enough guy. I'd like to think of Ennis getting together with SOMEONE after the end of the film, and Randall's the only contender we see. They could have talked about Jack, and I think they'd have got on OK. Not that it would happen, due to geography if nothing else.
I think a lot of thought went into the casting of Randall. They knew that viewers would not be able to stand the thought of Jack with someone else. He's the strong quiet type that Jack goes for - but at the same time he is not very attractive as a man. I feel physically ill every time I see him and Jack on that bench and he comes out with that: "You think?". At the same time, you are right. He is totally nice and would probably have made a good partner, I just can't stand the thought of him with Jack.
As to the suggestion that he could pair off with Ennis, I just feel he is completely the wrong type. Ennis needs a Jack/Cassie outgoing type to bring him out of his shell.
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Each time I see this movie, I find a new spot for emotional breakdown. My latest is when Jack was coming to meet Ennis, right after he had heard of Ennis's divorce. How Jack was happy, singing to "King of the Road", tooting his horn as coming around the building corner. I can see and feel the enthusiasm from Jack as if to say, "I'm going to be with my man, we're gonna make a life together, starting today"..... That big big smile he give Ennis when he jumps out of the truck and hugs him, and then what looks like he was about to plant a kiss on him.... when Ennis interupts him to let him know they are not alone.... Ennis has his children with him. Still, Jack is bubbling over with excitement... "Saying, well, I'm here".... with thoughts like.... "I've been waiting for this day for so long, and I'm here buddy"...."Does this mean we can start our lives together?".......
Then I weep and weep for Jack, when Ennis is breaking the sad news to him. I have strong feelings toward Ennis's pain and his struggle, but it is HERE, I cannot stand it for Jack. Poor Jack, has been waiting for so long, all these years. How this must of felt as if his heart was now ripped out of his chest, and was being held up right in front of his face.... pain pain pain that you can not see past.
How then the mode is completely opposite now as Jack is driving away.... we see him cry for the first time..... and you hear those words of Emmylou Harris' song singing in the background from her song "A Love That Will Never Grow Old" --
"Just the smile in your eyes, it can light up the night,
And your laughter's like wind in my sails. "
I feel Jack NEVER got over that. If only Ennis knew how much he hurt his Jack.
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Cameron, I agree 100% with your take on this scene. This scene, to me, is almost as heart-wrenching as the last scene between Jack and Ennis. Jack is on top of the mountain, and for the first time in, what 10 years of them meeting, he thinks his dreams are finally coming true. But Ennis knocks Jack off that mountain real quick. It goes from high to low in an instance (and who among us can't relate to that kind of disappointment). The look on Jack's face when he gets out of the truck, the pure joy, kills me every time because I know what is coming. Between Jack asking 10 people where Ennis lived, the white truck driving by, and the girls being around, Ennis was totally paranoid. I mean Ennis could have at least offered to meet him in the mountains the next day or something. I really wanted to kick Ennis in the balls for breaking Jack's heart at that moment. I almost don't blame Jack for going to Mexico for some sympathy sex after that.
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Each time I see this movie, I find a new spot for emotional breakdown. My latest is when Jack was coming to meet Ennis, right after he had heard of Ennis's divorce. How Jack was happy, singing to "King of the Road", tooting his horn as coming around the building corner. I can see and feel the enthusiasm from Jack as if to say, "I'm going to be with my man, we're gonna make a life together, starting today"..... That big big smile he give Ennis when he jumps out of the truck and hugs him, and then what looks like he was about to plant a kiss on him.... when Ennis interupts him to let him know they are not alone.... Ennis has his children with him. Still, Jack is bubbling over with excitement... "Saying, well, I'm here".... with thoughts like.... "I've been waiting for this day for so long, and I'm here buddy"...."Does this mean we can start our lives together?".......
Then I weep and weep for Jack, when Ennis is breaking the sad news to him. I have strong feelings toward Ennis's pain and his struggle, but it is HERE, I cannot stand it for Jack. Poor Jack, has been waiting for so long, all these years. How this must of felt as if his heart was now ripped out of his chest, and was being held up right in front of his face.... pain pain pain that you can not see past.
How then the mode is completely opposite now as Jack is driving away.... we see him cry for the first time..... and you hear those words of Emmylou Harris' song singing in the background from her song "A Love That Will Never Grow Old" --
"Just the smile in your eyes, it can light up the night,
And your laughter's like wind in my sails. "
I feel Jack NEVER got over that. If only Ennis knew how much he hurt his Jack.
That scene kills me everytime. I start to get almost sick everytime I see him pull up because I know what is coming. That moment Jack sort of slightly turns his head and says "well I guess I thought this meant..." and Ennis looks uncomfortable and mumbles something or other. The damn white truck and crow. And then the look on Jack's face when he realizes his mistake. And then Jack tries to put on a good face and gathers the shreds of his dignity to leave. Just kills me.
Also, if I had a gripe with this film (other than the dogs not getting fed ;)) it would be that we only hear 2 lines of this song in the film. I can't believe that, that line "crazy old notion that tells me sometimes, that this is the love of our lives" couldn't have been used SOMEWHERE.
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That was me. What's wrong with poor old Randall? He seems a nice enough guy. I'd like to think of Ennis getting together with SOMEONE after the end of the film, and Randall's the only contender we see. They could have talked about Jack, and I think they'd have got on OK. Not that it would happen, due to geography if nothing else.
I think a lot of thought went into the casting of Randall. They knew that viewers would not be able to stand the thought of Jack with someone else. He's the strong quiet type that Jack goes for - but at the same time he is not very attractive as a man. I feel physically ill every time I see him and Jack on that bench and he comes out with that: "You think?". At the same time, you are right. He is totally nice and would probably have made a good partner, I just can't stand the thought of him with Jack.
Perhaps, I am one of the few that doesn't find Randall unattractive. He isn't my type but I can see some thinking he was good lookin'. I just can't get over the idea of propositioning a stranger for sex. I think it is rude.
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You are all so right about this after-the-divorce scene. It is almost unbearable and becomes more so with each viewing. And what really gets me is the end of the film, when Ennis visits Jack's parents og meets his father, and both we and Ennis understand how Jack spent his whole childhood trying to please this sadistic, unfeeling man and then spent adulthood hoping and dreaming for Ennis' love and being rejected and settling for way too little. Yes I do believe Ennis saw it all but way too late.
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City Girl: "Perhaps, I am one of the few that doesn't find Randall unattractive. He isn't my type but I can see some thinking he was good lookin'. I just can't get over the idea of propositioning a stranger for sex. I think it is rude."
It's rude and it's desperate and it's demeaning. I think that's what I find unattractive!
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You are all so right about this after-the-divorce scene. It is almost unbearable and becomes more so with each viewing. And what really gets me is the end of the film, when Ennis visits Jack's parents og meets his father, and both we and Ennis understand how Jack spent his whole childhood trying to please this sadistic, unfeeling man and then spent adulthood hoping and dreaming for Ennis' love and being rejected and settling for way too little. Yes I do believe Ennis saw it all but way too late.
Gad, assuming that it entered Ennis' consciousness that he treated Jack in such a similar manner as Jack’s father treated him he must have felt like the biggest sh*t ever. On top of every feeling of longing and loss you get hit with the idea that you treated the most important person in your life just like his horrible father did.
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City Girl: "Perhaps, I am one of the few that doesn't find Randall unattractive. He isn't my type but I can see some thinking he was good lookin'. I just can't get over the idea of propositioning a stranger for sex. I think it is rude."
It's rude and it's desperate and it's demeaning. I think that's what I find unattractive!
demeaning is right.
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City Girl: "Perhaps, I am one of the few that doesn't find Randall unattractive. He isn't my type but I can see some thinking he was good lookin'. I just can't get over the idea of propositioning a stranger for sex. I think it is rude."
It's rude and it's desperate and it's demeaning. I think that's what I find unattractive!
Did you think so? It's a bit tacky that their wives are present, but otherwise I thought it was quite subtle. He has to get the message across, but in an ambiguous way. He has to let Jack know he's available, while allowing room to backtrack if he's got the wrong end of the stick. And he has to do it quickly as he might never have a chance to catch him alone again. It's quite delicately done. There's not even any physical contact. I've experienced some much less elegant approaches in my dating days. Compare it to the pick up scene with Cassie and Ennis, which is much less subtle, or Jack and Lureen.
I wouldn't call a fast pick up rude, desperate or demeaning though - direct is more the word I'd use :).
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City Girl: "Perhaps, I am one of the few that doesn't find Randall unattractive. He isn't my type but I can see some thinking he was good lookin'. I just can't get over the idea of propositioning a stranger for sex. I think it is rude."
It's rude and it's desperate and it's demeaning. I think that's what I find unattractive!
Did you think so? It's a bit tacky that their wives are present, but otherwise I thought it was quite subtle. He has to get the message across, but in an ambiguous way. He has to let Jack know he's available, while allowing room to backtrack if he's got the wrong end of the stick. And he has to do it quickly as he might never have a chance to catch him alone again. It's quite delicately done. There's not even any physical contact. I've experienced some much less elegant approaches in my dating days. Compare it to the pick up scene with Cassie and Ennis, which is much less subtle, or Jack and Lureen.
I wouldn't call a fast pick up rude, desperate or demeaning though - direct is more the word I'd use :).
Perhaps if Randall had suggested something a little less direct than a immediate weekend away. Something like getting together to watch a game? get a beer? something?
I wouldn't suggest going to Tahoe and spending a night in a cabin under the guise of skiing with someone I just met regardless of if I thought of them as just a friend or not. Could you?
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Some practical thoughts about the divorce scene: Jack drove 1200 miles (according to the short story and 1123,3 miles according to Yahoo maps) to Wyoming, then the same distance (or more) to Juarez. No kidding it takes minimum 34 hours (non-stop). No wonder he looks tired in Mexico, too much emotional suffer can be killed by physical suffering, he would probably sleep like 10-12 hours after quick paid sex, and in the morning start his life in a better mood, with the hope to meet Ennis in 4 weeks. I envy him because there is no such Mexico in Nothern Europe...and you cannot drive 60 miles per hour to cool your heat...
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City Girl: "Perhaps, I am one of the few that doesn't find Randall unattractive. He isn't my type but I can see some thinking he was good lookin'. I just can't get over the idea of propositioning a stranger for sex. I think it is rude."
It's rude and it's desperate and it's demeaning. I think that's what I find unattractive!
Did you think so? It's a bit tacky that their wives are present, but otherwise I thought it was quite subtle. He has to get the message across, but in an ambiguous way. He has to let Jack know he's available, while allowing room to backtrack if he's got the wrong end of the stick. And he has to do it quickly as he might never have a chance to catch him alone again. It's quite delicately done. There's not even any physical contact. I've experienced some much less elegant approaches in my dating days. Compare it to the pick up scene with Cassie and Ennis, which is much less subtle, or Jack and Lureen.
I wouldn't call a fast pick up rude, desperate or demeaning though - direct is more the word I'd use :).
Perhaps if Randall had suggested something a little less direct than a immediate weekend away. Something like getting together to watch a game? get a beer? something?
I wouldn't suggest going to Tahoe and spending a night in a cabin under the guise of skiing with someone I just met regardless of if I thought of them as just a friend or not. Could you?
I think a fast pick-up when both your spouses are present is all that has been mentioned above.
In general I think that BBM really is a universal love story, but maybe this is one scene that is very specific in terms of gay men in the closet, 'gaydar' which I had never heard of before, etc.
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I realize that “things may be different” for the beginnings of a Gay relationships than in het relationships but, that won’t make me ever warm up to the idea of Randall being anything other than a bit of physical relief to Jack. The idea of them together as a real couple makes my flesh crawl.
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City Girl: "Perhaps, I am one of the few that doesn't find Randall unattractive. He isn't my type but I can see some thinking he was good lookin'. I just can't get over the idea of propositioning a stranger for sex. I think it is rude."
It's rude and it's desperate and it's demeaning. I think that's what I find unattractive!
Did you think so? It's a bit tacky that their wives are present, but otherwise I thought it was quite subtle. He has to get the message across, but in an ambiguous way. He has to let Jack know he's available, while allowing room to backtrack if he's got the wrong end of the stick. And he has to do it quickly as he might never have a chance to catch him alone again. It's quite delicately done. There's not even any physical contact. I've experienced some much less elegant approaches in my dating days. Compare it to the pick up scene with Cassie and Ennis, which is much less subtle, or Jack and Lureen.
I wouldn't call a fast pick up rude, desperate or demeaning though - direct is more the word I'd use :).
Perhaps if Randall had suggested something a little less direct than a immediate weekend away. Something like getting together to watch a game? get a beer? something?
I wouldn't suggest going to Tahoe and spending a night in a cabin under the guise of skiing with someone I just met regardless of if I thought of them as just a friend or not. Could you?
I think a fast pick-up when both your spouses are present is all that has been mentioned above.
In general I think that BBM really is a universal love story, but maybe this is one scene that is very specific in terms of gay men in the closet, 'gaydar' which I had never heard of before, etc.
I'm struggling with sorting out all these nested quotes, so I'll leave them in just this one time :).
Could I go off for a night in a cabin, etc.? Well, I'd probably be a bit wary with a strange, but not with a friend. But you go on instinct to some extent, don't you? I'm sure I'm not the only one who's had sex with someone within an hour of meeting them. Sometimes it just feels right.
In the case of Randall - I feel he had to get to the point. He also had to get Jack in a situation where they were away from other people. I woudn't see a series of 'dates' as being any different really, just prolonging the agony, so to speak. Jack and Ennis had to wait a whlie to the point where Ennis was 'ready' - I don't see why the same should apply to Randall - Jack knows what he wants.
Yes, I thought it was a bit tacky that the wives were present. But let's face it, it's unpleasant all round. Maybe a more private opportunity wouldn't have occurred, but even if it did - it's still not nice from the wives' point of view. If we can accept the reunion scene with Jack and Ennis, then surely we can accept Randall's behaviour?
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I realize that “things may be different” for the beginnings of a Gay relationships than in het relationships but, that won’t make me ever warm up to the idea of Randall being anything other than a bit of physical relief to Jack. The idea of them together as a real couple makes my flesh crawl.
I know interpretations vary, but somebody has to be important enough for Jack to tell his father he was bringing up with him. It might not be Randall, but he's the most likely person - well, the only person we are shown. So I think he became a lot more than just physical relief. Or someone did.
Although, I do think he's a bit of a step down on the attractiveness scale after Ennis. A bit like Alma's Monroe. But like Monroe, I'm guessing he has other things to offer.
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Yes, I thought it was a bit tacky that the wives were present. But let's face it, it's unpleasant all round. Maybe a more private opportunity wouldn't have occurred, but even if it did - it's still not nice from the wives' point of view. If we can accept the reunion scene with Jack and Ennis, then surely we can accept Randall's behaviour?
Desecra, I will have to politely disagree with you on the idea that the behavior in the Randall/Jack pick-up scene is as acceptable as the behavior in the Reunion scene. The reunion scene comes after Jack and Ennis have fallen in love, had sex, and been separated for four years. This burst of passion that happens at the Reunion is as open as Jack and Ennis will ever get to outing their relationship. Ennis didn't know Alma was watching. He didn't do it openly in front of her face. As I see it, Randall's attempt to pick up Jack is today's equivalent of a booty call. Randall knows Jack for a couple of hours, figures out he might be male bait, and basically says lets get together for sex, no strings attached, just straight up sex. Randall does not make an attempt to be friends with Jack first or buddy up to him. No, Randall just states, unequivocally, he wants a good male lay. Based on this, I don't really think you can put these two scenes on equal footing.
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Yes, I thought it was a bit tacky that the wives were present. But let's face it, it's unpleasant all round. Maybe a more private opportunity wouldn't have occurred, but even if it did - it's still not nice from the wives' point of view. If we can accept the reunion scene with Jack and Ennis, then surely we can accept Randall's behaviour?
Desecra, I will have to politely disagree with you on the idea that the behavior in the Randall/Jack pick-up scene is as acceptable as the behavior in the Reunion scene. The reunion scene comes after Jack and Ennis have fallen in love, had sex, and been separated for four years. This burst of passion that happens at the Reunion is as open as Jack and Ennis will ever get to outing their relationship. Ennis didn't know Alma was watching. He didn't do it openly in front of her face. As I see it, Randall's attempt to pick up Jack is today's equivalent of a booty call. Randall knows Jack for a couple of hours, figures out he might be male bait, and basically says lets get together for sex, no strings attached, just straight up sex. Randall does not make an attempt to be friends with Jack first or buddy up to him. No, Randall just states, unequivocally, he wants a good male lay. Based on this, I don't really think you can put these two scenes on equal footing.
No, the scenes are not equal. But in both scenes the wives are around, but the men think [I hope] that they're not aware. Are you saying it's OK if people are in love, but not if they are just attracted? If it's about the depth of the relationship, at what point of emotional intimacy is this behaviour acceptable? If it's the wives' feelings that are the important thing, do you think it's easier on them if their husbands are in love with the other person?
What you seem to be saying [and I may be misinterpreting you] is that because Ennis and Jack had a slower courtship, their relationship is somehow more virtuous or acceptable than Randall and Jack's relationship. I thinkthe motivation for the slow courtship was that Jack didn't want to scare Ennis off. I would love if they had felt free enough to get together on the first night, but sadly, they didn't. The Jack and Randall pairing, which doesn't have Ennis's homophobia involved, can move ahead much more quickly.
I didn't get the impression that Randall didn't want to also be friends with Jack, and I didn't see him say unequivically that he only wants sex. [And in fact, the later suggestion that he was planning on moving to the ranch suggests that it was more than sex, for Jack at least]. And if he had said unequivocally, that he only wants sex - what would be wrong with that? At least it's clear and honest. I can see that this is one of those occasions where I am going to differ from the majority but I saw a sensitive, gentle pick up. As I said, it has to be direct enough that Jack gets the point. I don't imagine that Randall [or Jack] are coming into contact with huge numbers of attractive, available gay men, so they have to strike when the iron's hot.
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Stacp and Citygirl, I am with you on this one. Citygirl made me realize what is so creepy about Randall. The situation with him can in no way be compared to the Reunion. Jack and Ennis were together for weeks before FNIT/SNIT, their relationship developed slowly but surely. And I'm not saying the relationship would be no good if sex had happened from day one, which I don't think Jack would have minded, he was interested from the start. I'm just saying that by the time the reunion happened they had an incredibly close bond and add to that not having seen each other for four years.
Although I wish with all my heart that Jack had some joy with Randall those last months, I have to say I agree with Citygirl. He is one creepy can of beans. If Jack did get involved in a relationship with him and thought about taking him to Lightning Flats, which it seems he did, I think it is an expression of the turmoil and despair he felt after the last meeting with Ennis. As if he was losing his soul by losing his soul mate.
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Could I go off for a night in a cabin, etc.? Well, I'd probably be a bit wary with a strange, but not with a friend. But you go on instinct to some extent, don't you? I'm sure I'm not the only one who's had sex with someone within an hour of meeting them. Sometimes it just feels right.
In the case of Randall - I feel he had to get to the point. He also had to get Jack in a situation where they were away from other people. I woudn't see a series of 'dates' as being any different really, just prolonging the agony, so to speak. Jack and Ennis had to wait a whlie to the point where Ennis was 'ready' - I don't see why the same should apply to Randall - Jack knows what he wants.
Yes, I thought it was a bit tacky that the wives were present. But let's face it, it's unpleasant all round. Maybe a more private opportunity wouldn't have occurred, but even if it did - it's still not nice from the wives' point of view. If we can accept the reunion scene with Jack and Ennis, then surely we can accept Randall's behaviour?
Certainly inviting a friend for a weekend away is a go but, that is my point, they aren't friends. They met a couple of hours ago. I see your point that Randall has and immediate attraction and response, or does he? If as you say Gaydar was up and running would it be more of the availability rather than attraction. Regardless Randall wants to move the ball forward fast but, still they live in the same town, Jack knows where he works as does Randall know where Jack can be found. There is nothing stopping him from dropping by the Newsome Farm Equipment sales floor and chatting Jack up and go for a drink after work. I kind of have to chuckle that I am cast into the "sensitive pick up swimming pool", there are that some who know me would have broken jaws from when it hit the ground. I don’t know, it just seems like Jack is just a piece of meat to him.
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Yes, I thought it was a bit tacky that the wives were present. But let's face it, it's unpleasant all round. Maybe a more private opportunity wouldn't have occurred, but even if it did - it's still not nice from the wives' point of view. If we can accept the reunion scene with Jack and Ennis, then surely we can accept Randall's behaviour?
Desecra, I will have to politely disagree with you on the idea that the behavior in the Randall/Jack pick-up scene is as acceptable as the behavior in the Reunion scene. The reunion scene comes after Jack and Ennis have fallen in love, had sex, and been separated for four years. This burst of passion that happens at the Reunion is as open as Jack and Ennis will ever get to outing their relationship. Ennis didn't know Alma was watching. He didn't do it openly in front of her face. As I see it, Randall's attempt to pick up Jack is today's equivalent of a booty call. Randall knows Jack for a couple of hours, figures out he might be male bait, and basically says lets get together for sex, no strings attached, just straight up sex. Randall does not make an attempt to be friends with Jack first or buddy up to him. No, Randall just states, unequivocally, he wants a good male lay. Based on this, I don't really think you can put these two scenes on equal footing.
No, the scenes are not equal. But in both scenes the wives are around, but the men think [I hope] that they're not aware. Are you saying it's OK if people are in love, but not if they are just attracted? If it's about the depth of the relationship, at what point of emotional intimacy is this behaviour acceptable? If it's the wives' feelings that are the important thing, do you think it's easier on them if their husbands are in love with the other person?
What you seem to be saying [and I may be misinterpreting you] is that because Ennis and Jack had a slower courtship, their relationship is somehow more virtuous or acceptable than Randall and Jack's relationship. I thinkthe motivation for the slow courtship was that Jack didn't want to scare Ennis off. I would love if they had felt free enough to get together on the first night, but sadly, they didn't. The Jack and Randall pairing, which doesn't have Ennis's homophobia involved, can move ahead much more quickly.
I didn't get the impression that Randall didn't want to also be friends with Jack, and I didn't see him say unequivically that he only wants sex. [And in fact, the later suggestion that he was planning on moving to the ranch suggests that it was more than sex, for Jack at least]. And if he had said unequivocally, that he only wants sex - what would be wrong with that? At least it's clear and honest. I can see that this is one of those occasions where I am going to differ from the majority but I saw a sensitive, gentle pick up. As I said, it has to be direct enough that Jack gets the point. I don't imagine that Randall [or Jack] are coming into contact with huge numbers of attractive, available gay men, so they have to strike when the iron's hot.
I guess I am saying this in relation to the scenes in which you were referring: Reunion vs. Randall pick up scene. What Jack and Ennis had developed over the years was a deep love and connection; we could also argue that their relationship, at least in comparison to the Randall/Jack scene, evolved slowly. By the time of the reunion, their love, IMO, had been cemented. Their passionate kiss and embrace was a result of this deep love. In contrast, the Randall/Jack scene just reeks to me of wanting a quick fuck. Unlike on BBM, there is no relationship build up or even an attempt at getting to know each other. If Randall wasn't interested in more than sex, why even bring up the cabin at this point? Why not just say, "hey, let's meet and watch the game on Sunday?" and then see where it led. In this scene at least, I just don't see Randall as wanting anything more than a quick lay at the time. I guess what I'm saying is that the feelings behend Ennis and Randall's motivations toward Jack were different to me in each of these scenes: Ennis was in love with Jack at the time of the Reunion scene or "pick up" if we are comparing; Randall seems to just need a quickie. Also, I don't justify in either scene that it's okay for them to do this if their wives don't see it. They were obviously hurting their wives even if the wives never even knew of the affair (which Alma does).
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Some practical thoughts about the divorce scene: Jack drove 1200 miles (according to the short story and 1123,3 miles according to Yahoo maps) to Wyoming, then the same distance (or more) to Juarez. No kidding it takes minimum 34 hours (non-stop). No wonder he looks tired in Mexico, too much emotional suffer can be killed by physical suffering, he would probably sleep like 10-12 hours after quick paid sex, and in the morning start his life in a better mood, with the hope to meet Ennis in 4 weeks. I envy him because there is no such Mexico in Nothern Europe...and you cannot drive 60 miles per hour to cool your heat...
It all makes me feel so bad for Jack. What an ordeal. Do you think he could wake in the morning and feel better. I visualize him waking up and feeling almost worse. But, since I’ve gotten my hand slapped for speculation apparently we aren’t allowed go there.
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But the actor who plays Randall doesn't play the character like a lech. It would have been too easy for him to lick his chops like the Bob White in the "Green Eyes" AU; it's a testament to Ang Lee's generosity that this character has his reasons. His proposal strikes me as reasonable. He sizes up Jack Twist like Jack sizes up Ennis outside Aguirre's office. Who knows what relationship they had? The film is rich enough to suggest that by the early '80s perhaps Jack and Randall had the semblance of a normal relationship: something Jack wanted but never got from Ennis.
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And yet he still misses Ennis so much he can hardly stand it.
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I can see that this is one of those occasions where I am going to differ from the majority but I saw a sensitive, gentle pick up. As I said, it has to be direct enough that Jack gets the point. I don't imagine that Randall [or Jack] are coming into contact with huge numbers of attractive, available gay men, so they have to strike when the iron's hot.
Just want to chime in that I, too, thought the pick-up was okay as far as pick-ups go (with wives around)... I felt sort of bad for Randall actually, 'cuz I thought you could sort of tell Jack wanted to agree, but was really wishing it was Ennis doing the propositioning... any thoughts on why Jack asked Randall's wife to dance? to spite Lureen? to tease Randall? (none of those seems right to me...)
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I can see that this is one of those occasions where I am going to differ from the majority but I saw a sensitive, gentle pick up. As I said, it has to be direct enough that Jack gets the point. I don't imagine that Randall [or Jack] are coming into contact with huge numbers of attractive, available gay men, so they have to strike when the iron's hot.
Just want to chime in that I, too, thought the pick-up was okay as far as pick-ups go (with wives around)... I felt sort of bad for Randall actually, 'cuz I thought you could sort of tell Jack wanted to agree, but was really wishing it was Ennis doing the propositioning... any thoughts on why Jack asked Randall's wife to dance? to spite Lureen? to tease Randall? (none of those seems right to me...)
I actually thought it was to throw suspicion off himself. Lureen has just made her "why don't husbands ever want to dance with their wives comment." I could almost here Lureen wanting to add "or have sex with them." Lureen seems to be questioning Jack here, eg, questioning his attraction to women. Thus, to cover, he asks LaShawn to dance. But, I could definitely see other interpretations, like he's doing it just to spite Lureen, who is being a bit catty with him.
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Your suggestion makes sense to me, too. But it seems to have 'thrown off suspicion' he should have just asked Lureen. Maybe there was more bitterness in their relationship than I initially acknowledged (initially I thought they had worked in to a friendly, platonic kind of thing... but it makes more sense (maybe) for them to have become embittered - just happened at a slower pace than Ennis and Alma)
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In contrast, the Randall/Jack scene just reeks to me of wanting a quick fuck. Unlike on BBM, there is no relationship build up or even an attempt at getting to know each other. If Randall wasn't interested in more than sex, why even bring up the cabin at this point? Why not just say, "hey, let's meet and watch the game on Sunday?" and then see where it led. In this scene at least, I just don't see Randall as wanting anything more than a quick lay at the time. I guess what I'm saying is that the feelings behend Ennis and Randall's motivations toward Jack were different to me in each of these scenes: Ennis was in love with Jack at the time of the Reunion scene or "pick up" if we are comparing; Randall seems to just need a quickie. Also, I don't justify in either scene that it's okay for them to do this if their wives don't see it. They were obviously hurting their wives even if the wives never even knew of the affair (which Alma does).
OK, well lets forget about the reunion scene then. What I was getting at was that the only thing I could see wrong in the Randall/Jack scene was if you looked at it from the wives view, but that this applies not only to the Ennis/Jack reunion scene but to the whole of their relationship. I don't think Lureen would be happier if she knew they were in love, or had a slower a courtship, or whatever.
So what if Randall did just want a quick fuck? He's not the first :). I can't see what's wrong with that - he's making an offer which Jack can easily refuse if he's not interested. It's not creepy - it's a compliment. Maybe Jack wants a quick fuck too [although a weekend in a cabin suggests it might not be quick :)] - and quick fucks sometimes lead to loving relationships, as appears to have happened. I didn't see anything that suggested Randall was rejecting friendship, affection or love with Jack. And you've got to start somewhere, haven't you? You don't ask someone if they fancy falling in love with you. Generally sex of some sort comes before the love [love takes time].
As for suggesting the cabin - I agree with you that he is referring to sex. But it looks like a cabin is a convenient way for guys to get together - nobody seems to think anything of it. Don Wroe, whoever he may be, seemed to happily lend out his cabin and be none the wiser. It's a surefire way of getting Jack alone which is necessary if the courtship is to continue. It's also direct enough that Jack knows what he's getting at - would asking him round for a beer get the message across in the same way? And of course, it's also ambiguous enough that Randall can backtrack, and Jack can refuse easily, if need be. Nothing crude about it all - it was fast, but still a polite, careful, sensitive pick up. Compare it to Lureen's pick up of Jack [which I thought was more direct if anything - she said 'mating' for goodness sake. Then took her clothes off. Good on her - it's such a pity she picked the wrong guy!].
Now compare those to Jack's 'pick up' of Ennis and how carefully he has to tread - to me that's a BAD thing [in that it's caused by Ennis's homophobia], not a good thing. What I like about Randall is he is such a huge leap on from Ennis. He's still closeted, but he's so much more self-aware, less homophobic and capable of showing his feelings and taking the risks. It's how we hope [and Jack hopes] Ennis could have been. I sometimes wonder if that's what's going through Jack's head when he's sitting there.
Now if you're saying that casual sex, or proposing casual sex, is in itself creepy or morally wrong, then I strongly disagree. If we leave the wives out of it, what they are doing is perfectly normal and natural. Who's to say how long guys should 'date' before having sex [or women for that matter]? Some people might feel that Ennis and Jack jumping straight into full sex from what seemed to be a friendship would be too fast for them - what, no kissing? Or that a month on the mountain wouldn't be enough to get to know each other. It's a personal issue, not a moral issue.
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I have a feeling that during that dinner Jack and Randall spontaneously "caught each other's eye". This can happen in the most unlikely circumstances, between the most unexpected people and in the most inconvenient of places. Jack was annoyed (from the look he gave Randall just before getting up to dance with LaShawn) that Randall may have not been subtle enough about this mutual recognition.
While they sat outside waiting for their wives, Randall took the opportunity to proposition Jack. Not knowing the accepted protocols of male to male sexual signalling (especially between closeted guys) I can't comment on whether or not Randall acted inapproriately. Things are probably different from het courtship rituals. For example, a gay guy elsewhere in this forum explained that very often first encounters are wham bam and that is then followed by more tender and interactions.
I took it that Randall was suggesting regular getaways together not just a quick one-off. He probably felt he had to strike while the iron was hot (sorry!). He was new in town. Who knows when another opportune moment might arise. How many guys like Jack was he likely to meet anyway?
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Desecra, maybe I am comparing the Randall "let's fuck" approach too much to the slow courtship of Jack and Ennis. I honestly don't know what is acceptable in the gay community as far as picking up and having sex (I am a het female). But, to me, I was a little turned off by Randall's wham, bam, thank you ma'm approach. It's probably because I am a het female I feel like this and also because I'm so invested in the Jack and Ennis relationship that I feel Randall is infringing upon it. I think it's an interesting point you bring up about whether Lureen would have been bothered more by the Jack/Ennis relationship as opposed to the Jack/Randall. I think, for me, if I knew my spouse was in love with another (J & E) that would bother me more than a fuck buddy (Jack and Randall). But, since this has never happened to me, who knows? Thanks for all your insights, Des.
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Are you saying it's OK if people are in love, but not if they are just attracted? If it's about the depth of the relationship, at what point of emotional intimacy is this behaviour acceptable? If it's the wives' feelings that are the important thing, do you think it's easier on them if their husbands are in love with the other person?
What you seem to be saying [and I may be misinterpreting you] is that because Ennis and Jack had a slower courtship, their relationship is somehow more virtuous or acceptable than Randall and Jack's relationship. I think the motivation for the slow courtship was that Jack didn't want to scare Ennis off. I would love if they had felt free enough to get together on the first night, but sadly, they didn't. The Jack and Randall pairing, which doesn't have Ennis's homophobia involved, can move ahead much more quickly.
I didn't get the impression that Randall didn't want to also be friends with Jack, and I didn't see him say unequivically that he only wants sex. [And in fact, the later suggestion that he was planning on moving to the ranch suggests that it was more than sex, for Jack at least]. And if he had said unequivocally, that he only wants sex - what would be wrong with that? At least it's clear and honest. I can see that this is one of those occasions where I am going to differ from the majority but I saw a sensitive, gentle pick up. As I said, it has to be direct enough that Jack gets the point. I don't imagine that Randall [or Jack] are coming into contact with huge numbers of attractive, available gay men, so they have to strike when the iron's hot.
This is from a day or so ago but I have been pondering it. First, I do feel badly for the wives, I really do, I had a friend from college who had a husband come out. It's an understatement to say it tore up her life. While Ennis's wife is nearby in the Reunion scene to Ennis' knowledge, she isn't in the middle of it, where as LaShawn and Lureen were.
Second, I have been pondering the what I think is your suggestion that Jack "held back" with Ennis as a calculated move. That he some how strategizes that to move on Ennis to quickly would have bad results. They worked together so he had to be somehow be circumspect. If we are to believe this then, that would make Jack somewhat of a “player” or seducer, or god forbid predator. If we were to believe this then how can we reconcile his disastrous play on vile Jimbo? If Jack was somehow better at the game, then he would have seen that approaching Jimbo, excuse me, vile Jimbo was a very bad idea.
Was Jack and Ennis relationship more virtuous? I’d say, You Bet. Why? Because even if there was an initial spark of attraction their relationship was based on something a bit more solid than “you are hot”, they grew to know each other. The desire for each other was based on something more than the meeting of bodies. What is wrong with sex? Nothing, nothing at all, and it is may be direct and honest but, it is lacking in a certain allure because never is there longing built. Got a itch. Scratch it. Initial spark alone is not what solid relationships are based on. Lots of people have fu*k buddies, that they enjoy spending time with but who never touch their souls or their hearts.
I'm not saying that it can't happen, sometimes it does. A solid sexual attraction is a very important component of any romantic relationship. But, as to what Jack and Randall could come to mean to each other, it is only speculative. We only get this one meeting, a rumored deleted scene of them meeting up at a gas station, and what Jack's father tells him. It is assumed that it was Randall, his father referred to as ‘fella, it is a strong assumption but, there is a some open space. Also, since Jack never spoke to Ennis about bringing him home to meet the folks and fix up this ranch, we can’t know if Jack directly suggested to Randall to uproot his life to move to Lighting Flats. We just don’t have enough information about Randall to know either him or if they developed a serious relationship. Finally, if Randall and Jack had somehow managed to create something solid, if Randall had been able to fulfill Jack’s emotional needs, how could is it that Jack could well up and tell Ennis “…truth is…sometimes I miss you so bad I can hardly stand it…”?
I don't know, I just don't see Jack Twist turning into Alma and going for his own Monroe.
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I've snipped loads here to make it not too long a post - I don't meant to distort your original meaning, and if I do, I apologise.
Second, I have been pondering the what I think is your suggestion that Jack "held back" with Ennis as a calculated move. That he some how strategizes that to move on Ennis to quickly would have bad results. They worked together so he had to be somehow be circumspect. If we are to believe this then, that would make Jack somewhat of a “player” or seducer, or god forbid predator.
No, I don't see him as a predator. What I see is he has some sort of connection with Ennis and he's very good at 'reading' him. I'm sure he knows that if he'd made an advance at the beginning of the summer, Ennis would probably have been outraged and most likely beaten him up. He's not predatory, just intuitive.
It's not down to a choice between [deliberate] fast pick up = creepy, slow pick up = predatory. They are different ways of acting according to the situation and the person you are dealing with. Randall had to get in quickly, Jack had plenty of time on the mountain and also HAD to wait if he wanted to get there in the end.
If we were to believe this then how can we reconcile his disastrous play on vile Jimbo? If Jack was somehow better at the game, then he would have seen that approaching Jimbo, excuse me, vile Jimbo was a very bad idea.
He didn't read him as well, he didn't have the intuitive connection he had with Ennis. It was probably a bad choice of venue too, but needs must, I suppose. If Jack had been 'riding more than bulls' we can assume that he got lucky at least sometimes :).
Was Jack and Ennis relationship more virtuous? I’d say, You Bet. Why? Because even if there was an initial spark of attraction their relationship was based on something a bit more solid than “you are hot”, they grew to know each other. The desire for each other was based on something more than the meeting of bodies. What is wrong with sex? Nothing, nothing at all, and it is may be direct and honest but, it is lacking in a certain allure because never is there longing built. Got a itch. Scratch it. Initial spark alone is not what solid relationships are based on. Lots of people have fu*k buddies, that they enjoy spending time with but who never touch their souls or their hearts.
I have to admit that I don't understand this. A relationship isn't as virtuous if it starts with sexual attraction? This is interesting because sexual attraction at the start of a relationship has recently been discussed on another thread. If I remember, I thinkmost people thought that most relationships started with sexual attraction - I know I certainly think that way. And although you might not have sex on the first date, my guess is that most people will be doing something sexual long before they're in love. What you seem to be saying is that because the sex came first their relationships do not have as much value as those which started platonicly. I don't get it.
And for me personally, I don't see sex as just scratching an itch, whether it's casual or not. [Masturbation could probably be more appropriately described that way :)]. You do it with someone else - it's social, there's a connection there, emotion and affection, etc.
But, as to what Jack and Randall could come to mean to each other, it is only speculative.
I agree. My guess it that they did go on to have a fairly serious relationship, based on what little evidence we have. Either way, it doesn't matter - there was nothing wrong with what Randall was doing at that time, in my eyes. As I said, you don't invite people to fall in love with you, or move in with you [not usually anyway - I'm sure it does happen] - you make sexual advances, you date, or whatever, and things develop from that.
Finally, if Randall and Jack had somehow managed to create something solid, if Randall had been able to fulfill Jack’s emotional needs, how could is it that Jack could well up and tell Ennis “…truth is…sometimes I miss you so bad I can hardly stand it…”?
Because he still loved him, regardless of who else he was seeing. Until he could 'quit' him, it wouldn't ever be perfect with Randall, or whoever.
I don't know, I just don't see Jack Twist turning into Alma and going for his own Monroe.
Maybe Monroe is a bad example. I meant someone who wasn't the love of his life at the time, but someone who could help fulfil his needs and who he could maybe grow to love over time. I wouldn't want Jack to turn into Alma, sweet as she is :). I do want him to make the best of a bitch of a situation.
Thank you for your interesting points.
As a side note, and a very personal one - we do tend to compare these things to our own experiences. When I was in a situation [only VERY loosely] similar to this, I had a Randall, and looking back I remember him very much with affection and am grateful for the way he gently insisted on coming into my life when I needed it, and being giving of himself, even if we weren't going to be right for each other. Which may slightly colour my view, but I still mean all I said objectively as well :)
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Desecra, first let me say, I’m in awe of how you were able to do the snipped post thing. I’m clueless at that and I appreciate the amount of time and care you took with this. I also want to thank you for your interesting viewpoints. I rather enjoy discussing differences when the other side is both articulate and lacking in rancor. Unfortunately, in several of the threads differences in opinion have resulted in absurd flame wars. I appreciate that you have kept this at a higher level than that. Since I don’t know how to do the snips I hope you can track the following.
I agree that Jack reads Ennis very well but again, I think that is because he got to know him. He made an effort to ask about his life in the bar scene. He may have sensed a loneliness or something that spoke to him, (aside from the general hotness of Ennis which I’m sure was there) which perked his interest. We don’t see Randall asking any questions to Jack or make any real effort to know him. I keep coming back to where is the fire? Randall knows where to find Jack, they live in the same small town and he could easily stop by Newsome’s Farm Equipment.
As for “riding more than bulls”, yes we could conclude that he got lucky but, it was pointed out in this thread (might have been another) that both Lureen and Randall approach him and that he takes what he is offered. Ouch. Hate to say it, but it is an interesting idea. We don’t see Jack successfully getting anyone other than Ennis. But, I’m willing to give Jack the benefit of the doubt and say he did the choosing sometimes.
I wasn’t saying that there wasn’t sexual attraction between Jack and Ennis from the beginning. I don’t for a minute think that Jack ever just thought of Ennis as “just a friend”. What I am trying to convey is that he valued Ennis for more than his body. They connected on the mental, emotional and finally physical level. And even amongst people who are “just friends” there is often an undercurrent of sexual attraction. Am I saying that because sex came first that Jack and Randall’s relationship doesn’t have some sort of value? Well it is likely to have kept Jack sane for most of the year but, once again because we see so little of them together we can’t know how Randall views Jack. Like I said we don’t know if he spoke to Randall first about moving to Lightening Flats. If Jack went directly from the last scene to his parents then he wouldn’t have seen Randall to talk it over with him. That is unless Jack quit before he ever got to the last scene.
Often when sex comes first, it can “get in the way”, at least in my experience. Sometimes there is just no place to go if sexual tension is defused at the get go. I’m not saying that a connection can’t happen with the good stuff coming up first, but it seems rarer. What I have seen more often is strangers hooking up and then feeling completely uncomfortable with each other after. I have to politely disagree with that it would be a given that after doing it with someone that emotion and affection follow. I’ve heard way too many truly nasty things said about sex partners after a hook up. I was in a Starbucks the other day and over-heard a couple of guys talking. One told the other of his “conquest” but now she keeps calling his cell phone, at which point the other tells the vile joke “what is the difference between _________ and a toilet? A toilet doesn’t follow you around after you use it.” These weren’t a couple of idiot college kids, these were grown men in their mid 30s and I’m in line behind them with my mouth dropped open.
I guess, we are just not going to agree as to the appropriateness of Randall’s actions but that is okay. We don’t have to agree because it isn’t a matter of right or wrong. For some people a strong come on is fine and for others it is not. A matter of personal preference, that’s all. And I agree that unless Jack could find a way of emotionally and physically letting go of Ennis that finding and creating something real with someone else would be beyond challenging. I think everyone wants the best for Jack, good decent Jack, he deserves happiness but, as I see it, he a fictional character in a love story. Fictional characters in love stories just don’t go on to make decent lives with someone else.
We do bring our own personal experiences to this film, almost impossible not to actually. I am very glad for you that your (sort of) Randall experience turned out so well. Unfortunately, my experiences has been colored but in an entirely different way. I have just had too many experiences (especially when younger) where guys approached me pretty much told me what they wanted from me. Not exactly like Randall but close enough to get the message. They didn’t want to know anything about me and in fact seemed to prefer it if I not speak at all. My personal favorite was the guy who said to me that I would be the perfect woman if he could just take my head off and leave it outside the door. I thought that one was especially nice. >:( I didn’t and don’t wear suggestive clothing, nor did I somehow signal them by my eyes or flirting, and while I am small, I didn’t and don’t have an astonishing body. I thought those days were finally over and then just a few weeks ago a friend’s husband made a suggestion about coming over to my place without her, how “fun” it would be, how she doesn’t pay any attention to him, blab, blab, blab. His intentions were very clear and not the least bit honorable and of course, I was appalled. I can’t tell you how many times I have screamed in my head “I’m a human being not a piece of meat”. So you can say I am just a bit overly sensitive. I have to keep reminding myself that it is “different” in Gay culture but I find the total and complete lack of preamble just sad especially in light of what he has with Ennis.
And I still can’t believe I am cast in the role of some latter day Rules Girl. Yuck.
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City Girl, what a thoughtful and moving post. Thank you for sharing. I think what it boils down to for me is that I am putting the Randall/Jack relationship (if that's the label we'll put on it for now) in the context of the bigger love story between Jack and Ennis. The love Jack and Ennis have and their unbreakable bond to me is the epitome of a perfect love (if that even exists). In this context and with this in mind, the Randall approach and/or the Randall/Jack relationship just feels sterile and passion-less to me. Now great sex is a wondrous physical release (and could lead to a lasting relationship if it comes first) but true intimacy develops over time. Ennis and Jack had intimacy; just look at the way Jack is holding Ennis during that motel scene. There's a connection there and a bond we can visibly see as Jack cradles Ennis in his arm, breathes in the scent of Ennis' hair, and in the way Ennis nudges Jack's arm when Jack says "Old Brokeback got us good." We never see any intimacy between Jack and Randall, just a blatant pick up for sex. Did intimacy develop over time for Randall and Jack? We don't know (thank God--couldn't handle that). But, my guess is that Jack would never achieve that level of intimacy with anyone else other than Ennis. What's virtuous or not aside, that is what makes Jack and Ennis the love of each others' lives and a love that will indeed never grow old.
P.S. City Girl, do you want me to round up my posse to kick your friend's husband's butt? It includes the likes of those elusive folks in BBM such as the Chilean sheep herder, Carl, the faceless Don Wroe, and the nameless bartender who tells Jack about Lureen. ;)
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I think the bartender was named Doug. I thought I heard Vile Jimbo say his name. Funny it will never be just Jimbo for me, it will always be Vile Jimbo. Posse members should have names if possible. :)
Still trying to figure out if I should say something to her but, somehow I think it will end up biting me in the a** if I do. Like somehow it will be my fault.
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Still trying to figure out if I should say something to her but, somehow I think it will end up biting me in the a** if I do. Like somehow it will be my fault.
I hate to say it, but I think you're probably right :(. I don't know what I'd do in your situation.
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Desecra, first let me say, I’m in awe of how you were able to do the snipped post thing. I’m clueless at that and I appreciate the amount of time and care you took with this. I also want to thank you for your interesting viewpoints. I rather enjoy discussing differences when the other side is both articulate and lacking in rancor. Unfortunately, in several of the threads differences in opinion have resulted in absurd flame wars. I appreciate that you have kept this at a higher level than that.
Well, thank you. And the same to you too. I like being made to question my assumptions - I think it's good for me :). It's great to be able to do it with someone polite and articulate, like you. Definitely no rancor felt from this end. I often have differences of opinion with people I like and respect - it's nice to be able to debate them without it being a criticism of the person who holds the opinion.
I posted a huge reply to your post, but I realised I was probably straying off topic a bit, being boring, and using too much of my own experience to clarify things. So here's the edited version...
I agree that Jack reads Ennis very well but again, I think that is because he got to know him. ... Randall knows where to find Jack, they live in the same small town and he could easily stop by Newsome’s Farm Equipment.
I agree with all you say here, but I think it partly comes down to that I don't find Randall's quick pick up offensive. There may have been other opportunities to talk to Jack, but maybe not many PRIVATE ones. The other point that crossed my mind, is that in Randall's situation, I might just want to know as soon as possible - is he or isn't he? Is there a possibility or not? Rather than going slowly and maybe getting hurt after I'd got in too deep. Or even beaten up or outed if I'd misjudged the situation. I presume there's a slight shadow of the tire iron hanging over Randall too, even if he tries to live without the fear of it [he got married, after all].
Am I saying that because sex came first that Jack and Randall’s relationship doesn’t have some sort of value?
I suppose I meant, in general does a relationship have less value if it started with sex. If Ennis hadn't been quite so repressed and had managed to dive in there at the beginning, would Jack and Ennis's relationship have less value than if they'd waited. As I'm sure you've guessed, I don't think so :).
Often when sex comes first, it can “get in the way”, at least in my experience. Sometimes there is just no place to go if sexual tension is defused at the get go. I’m not saying that a connection can’t happen with the good stuff coming up first, but it seems rarer.
My experience is the opposite. I don't find that the sexual tension is defused by sex. I'm still finding plenty of places to go with my guy years after that first date experience ;). Do I think Jack and Ennis would have lost their spark if they'd got down to it earlier? No, I don't.
I have to politely disagree with that it would be a given that after doing it with someone that emotion and affection follow.
Of course, you may well be right. Just to clarify - I meant that in my own experience - I didn't mean that they would follow, but that normally you would feel emotion and affection AT THE TIME, whether it's a short period of dating or a one night stand. You're probably going to pick people that you have some liking for.
I had a huge reply in response to your stories about various experiences with guys and their pick up lines. I think I was so outraged at some of them that I got distracted from the point! You have my sympathies for being exposed to such unworthy specimens. Especially the friend's husband - yuck indeed.
I suppose I feel that Randall's pick up was so much more respectful than the ones you mentioned. He came across to me as quite sensitive. It's a while since I've seen it though, and maybe I'm projecting a bit.
Another thing you rightly mentioned, is that we don't have experience of what it's like for men. Partifcularly being a man, being picked up by a man is going to feel different than being a woman being picked up. Is it possibly less threatening? I'd probably feel less threatened by a woman inviting me to a cabin [with similar intent] than a man.
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Desecra, City Girl and Stacp, have been reading your posts, thank you so much for all your insights. Isn't it amazing how we all engage with BBM through our personal experiences and how it makes us examine our past and our choices?
Thinking through all that has been said about Randall and Jack, I keep coming back to: Rebound guy, rebound relationship. Nice, available - but...
I stated at one point that I found the fast pick-up demeaning. I have reflected on that, I think this scene (Jack, Lureen, Randall, Lashawn) really shows us the demeaning position gay men in the closet are in. To have no other options than those men like Jack and Randall had is really awful to consider. I would also add that I find it hard to see how one could find true love in a situation of lies and deception like this. I think there is a definite point in the fact that Jack and Ennis met under different circumstances and that their love evolved during a period of time when they were free to be themselves. The slow erosion of their relationship started when all the lying took hold.
I know we aren't supposed to speculate, but here's my two cents:
1) I don't believe Jack was seeing Randall when he was with Ennis for the last time. I think his remark about "Wanting something I hardly ever get" should be taken at face value.
2) I think Jack initiated a relationship with Randall after the last meeting with Ennis.
3) I don't think Jack loved Randall or anything like it. I really feel, as others have suggested, that emotionally and spiritually he was already dying at this point.
After writing the above I thought, no, that is just too painful. So I have to HOPE even though I don't BELIEVE that Randall and Jack had something good together.
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Desecra, City Girl and Stacp, have been reading your posts, thank you so much for all your insights. Isn't it amazing how we all engage with BBM through our personal experiences and how it makes us examine our past and our choices?
Thinking through all that has been said about Randall and Jack, I keep coming back to: Rebound guy, rebound relationship. Nice, available - but...
I stated at one point that I found the fast pick-up demeaning. I have reflected on that, I think this scene (Jack, Lureen, Randall, Lashawn) really shows us the demeaning position gay men in the closet are in. To have no other options than those men like Jack and Randall had is really awful to consider. I would also add that I find it hard to see how one could find true love in a situation of lies and deception like this. I think there is a definite point in the fact that Jack and Ennis met under different circumstances and that their love evolved during a period of time when they were free to be themselves. The slow erosion of their relationship started when all the lying took hold.
I know we aren't supposed to speculate, but here's my two cents:
1) I don't believe Jack was seeing Randall when he was with Ennis for the last time. I think his remark about "Wanting something I hardly ever get" should be taken at face value.
2) I think Jack initiated a relationship with Randall after the last meeting with Ennis.
3) I don't think Jack loved Randall or anything like it. I really feel, as others have suggested, that emotionally and spiritually he was already dying at this point.
After writing the above I thought, no, that is just too painful. So I have to HOPE even though I don't BELIEVE that Randall and Jack had something good together.
Thank you for the insights, River Girl. You are so right about the evolving of Jack and Ennis' relationship after they came down from BBM. I also think BBM was the one time in their lives that they were allowed to be free, away from the prying and judgmental eyes of the world (except for Aguirre), and be themselves. BBM is their Eden (from which they are destined to fall as one review so eloquently put it). But even before they come down off of BBM, the lies begin: they're not "queer" and it's a one shot thing. After they're off the mountain, the lies, male posturing, and putting on of appearances destroy both themselves and their families. Truly a tragedy.
I also must admit that when I first joined this Forum, I was adamant in my belief that Jack did not have an affair with Randall. As example, I pointed to the last scene, where Jack confesses about Mexico: why not just confess about Randall, too? I thought. After reading many posts about it, I came to the conclusion that Jack probably did have a fling with Randall and wanted to spare Ennis' feelings about it. But your point about Jack saying he hardly ever gets it now makes me ponder this question once again. That's a good point--Jack is desperate in the last scene; his emotions are so raw and real. He is laying it all out on the line, hence, "I'll say it just once." What is he saying just once?--the truth. What does he have to lose by holding back? Nothing and he doesn't. He knows now Ennis won't change. He tells Ennis exactly how it is--Jack wanted a life together and Ennis didn't, and it is destroying Jack--"you have no idea how bad it gets. I can't make it on a couple of high altitude f*cks a year [that's why I go to Mexico]." I think we've all had relationships, even familial ones, were there comes a point where the truth needs to be told, no matter how painful it is. In this context, maybe Jack is telling the truth about hardly ever getting it and this would indicate he hadn't started up with Randall yet (and I do know about the deleted "hug" scene b/w Jack and Randall, but I am going by the final cut here). Anyway, thank you for giving me yet more to think about!
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River girl - I think the setting of the start of Ennis and Jack's relationship [Brokeback mountain] is very important for many reasons, including those you mentioned. which I agree with.
Stacp, I took 'Mexico' to mean everything, from the 'riding more than bulls' right through the years to Randall ['braced for it all these years']. I also took 'hardly ever get' to mean over all the years as well. At the time, it looked as if any relationship with Randall consisted of probably infrequent fishing trips, so Jack probably still hardly ever got. So my own personal little speculation still fits in with the last meeting. [I also think there's a bit more to the 'hardly ever get' comment as well, but I could go on for ever!]
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Unfortunately, I can't retrieve quotes right now. :(
Stacp: "I also must admit that when I first joined this Forum, I was adamant in my belief that Jack did not have an affair with Randall. "
I know what you mean. When I first started lurking here and read the suggestion that Jack had had a sexual experience with a man on Brokeback Mountain the summer before he was there with Ennis, I was shocked and outraged. I felt it was their sacred place and could not bear to imagine Jack there with another man. But now I find it quite conceivable, it fits into my understanding of Jack's interest in sleeping in the camp and other things. And Jack's possible 'fooling around' the summer before in no way threatens my understanding of Jack and Ennis' relationship, because it is on a totally different level.
Desecra: "I took 'Mexico' to mean everything, from the 'riding more than bulls' right through the years to Randall ['braced for it all these years']. I also took 'hardly ever get' to mean over all the years as well. At the time, it looked as if any relationship with Randall consisted of probably infrequent fishing trips, so Jack probably still hardly ever got. So my own personal little speculation still fits in with the last meeting."
You are really making me question my assumptions about Jack and Randall. I feel strongly that Jack has no emotional investment in Randall before the last meeting. But right now I am contemplating a scenario where they are having those infrequent fishing trips, and Randall is falling in love and putting pressure on Jack, who is holding back. That puts the last meeting into a new context. What do you think?
Desecra: "[I also think there's a bit more to the 'hardly ever get' comment as well, but I could go on for ever!]"
Please don't hesitate. None of us are leaving, though we do eat, sleep and work from time to time. Are you thinking along the lines that 'hardly ever get' refers not only to sex but also to love?
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I relate it to the fear of being found out--like when he wonders later if everyone knows... Jack has just said that he's asked about 10 people in town in order to find Ennis... To me it's a "what will the neighbors think" moment of tire-iron influenced panic, revealing Ennis' weakness, like "please, Jack, I can't be seen with you here..."
IMO that's a pretty good example of how Ennis' magnified fear often distorts reality for him - after all, there's nothing personal necessarily implied in a guy asking where Ennis is. It could be construed by people as any number of things, many of them work-related.
And I always relate the bird flying overhead at the same time as a crow, a death symbol...
I'd thought that owls were the birds that were death symbols? Or are there more than one?
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OK, you've twisted my arm. I'm not sure if I'm going to able to express this very well. I do think that 'hardly ever get' line has a bit of a double meaning. The obvious meaning is that Jack doesn't get enough sex because they only have a couple of meetings a year [so he has to seek it out elsewhere].
The other meaning I get from it -and it could be my imagination - is that he's hinting that he just doesn't get ENOUGH from Ennis generally ... including love. Ennis almost reduces their relationship to sex - he can deal with the sex more than the love. Everything about their love is so constrained - 2 weeks a year, always the same type of location, can never talk about how they feel, etc.
So I suppose I think it's definitely the sex he's talking about, but at the same time he's thinking that he hardly gets anything else either.
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This is off-topic, from the movie, I mean, but, I find the added things by the screenplay writers and the final movie to be rather distracting from the original story.
There is no "alley scene" in the book. When Ennis feels like someone his pulling his guts out and he feels he has to puke in the book, he pulls the truck which he is driving over to the side of the road and gets out having the dry heaves with nothing to puke.
While there is only one truck involved in the movie when the guys depart in August 1963, there are two trucks in the book and the guys drive off in opposite directions.
Ennis tells Jack in the book's Motel Siesta that he thought it was due to something that he had eaten at THAT place in Dubois. Apparently, they drove both of their trucks to Dubois after getting paid by Aguirre or they had to go to Dubois to be paid by the people who got them their jobs in the first place [since it was a "temporary summer job].
In the book, there is only one Thanksgiving scene and that is Ennis having dinner with his two girls, Alma and her husband, Bill, the Riverton grocer.
While Jack Twist is very important to the original story, the whole story revolves around Ennis's world. What happened in Texas is only talked about by the story's narrator or by Jack himself when he is with Jack . . . that is, until Ennis calls Jack's Childress phone number after receiving the "DECEASED" stamped postcard back to see of Jack is really dead. And . . . even then, Ennis only hears Lureen (no maiden name given) Twist when she talks very coldly about the "accident on the back road with the tire changing incident."
The "truck scene of May 1983" is where Jack is already in his own truck about to leave the trail-head parking lot. Ennis is talking to him through the truck window. Also, Ennis's truck has a horse trailer hitched to it in the book. [I ask, "Since they show Ennis having a horse trailer out in the country when he and Alma lived together, why didn't they use a horse trailer in the May 1983 scene, too?"]
From what Annie Proulx wrote about that last scene, Jack does not even touch Ennis when it looks like Ennis is having a heart attack or a possible rage induced nervous breakdown. And, as soon as Jack gets out of the truck, Ennis straightens up and acts like he didn't get angry in the first place.
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OK, you've twisted my arm. I'm not sure if I'm going to able to express this very well. I do think that 'hardly ever get' line has a bit of a double meaning. The obvious meaning is that Jack doesn't get enough sex because they only have a couple of meetings a year [so he has to seek it out elsewhere].
The other meaning I get from it -and it could be my imagination - is that he's hinting that he just doesn't get ENOUGH from Ennis generally ... including love. Ennis almost reduces their relationship to sex - he can deal with the sex more than the love. Everything about their love is so constrained - 2 weeks a year, always the same type of location, can never talk about how they feel, etc.
So I suppose I think it's definitely the sex he's talking about, but at the same time he's thinking that he hardly gets anything else either.
This makes sense to me, Desecra. I think Jack is saying a lot of things in this scene, including expressing his resentment and disappointment that Ennis won't give any more of himself physically and emotionally than those couple of high altitude f*ks a year "in the middle of nowhere." Thanks for fleshing this out.
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This is off-topic, from the movie, I mean, but, I find the added things by the screenplay writers and the final movie to be rather distracting from the original story.
There is no "alley scene" in the book. When Ennis feels like someone his pulling his guts out and he feels he has to puke in the book, he pulls the truck which he is driving over to the side of the road and gets out having the dry heaves with nothing to puke.
While there is only one truck involved in the movie when the guys depart in August 1963, there are two trucks in the book and the guys drive off in opposite directions.
Ennis tells Jack in the book's Motel Siesta that he thought it was due to something that he had eaten at THAT place in Dubois. Apparently, they drove both of their trucks to Dubois after getting paid by Aguirre or they had to go to Dubois to be paid by the people who got them their jobs in the first place [since it was a "temporary summer job].
In the book, there is only one Thanksgiving scene and that is Ennis having dinner with his two girls, Alma and her husband, Bill, the Riverton grocer.
While Jack Twist is very important to the original story, the whole story revolves around Ennis's world. What happened in Texas is only talked about by the story's narrator or by Jack himself when he is with Jack . . . that is, until Ennis calls Jack's Childress phone number after receiving the "DECEASED" stamped postcard back to see of Jack is really dead. And . . . even then, Ennis only hears Lureen (no maiden name given) Twist when she talks very coldly about the "accident on the back road with the tire changing incident."
The "truck scene of May 1983" is where Jack is already in his own truck about to leave the trail-head parking lot. Ennis is talking to him through the truck window. Also, Ennis's truck has a horse trailer hitched to it in the book. [I ask, "Since they show Ennis having a horse trailer out in the country when he and Alma lived together, why didn't they use a horse trailer in the May 1983 scene, too?"]
From what Annie Proulx wrote about that last scene, Jack does not even touch Ennis when it looks like Ennis is having a heart attack or a possible rage induced nervous breakdown. And, as soon as Jack gets out of the truck, Ennis straightens up and acts like he didn't get angry in the first place.
While I see these differences between the book and the movie, they personally didn't bother me. The movie, although staying quite true to the book IMO, is an interpretation of the original story. Ang Lee, as we all know, put his own artistic stamp on Annie Proulx's masterpiece (getting those two together, everyone should have known this film was going to be brilliant). I think some of the small (and I would call a lot of them small) changes actually make the movie more powerful (as opposed to being filmed just like the book described it). Take, for instance, the alley scene after Ennis and Jack come down from BBM. First, Ennis not having his own truck shows us just how poverty stricken Ennis was (and the theme of poverty plays out throughout the movie). Second, I think Ennis kneeling down to puke in the shadows of the alley is such a powerful image. He is heartbroken over parting from Jack, but retreats into the shadows of the alley to cry alone and in shame. He even covers his face with his cowboy hat. I think this "hiding" in the alley is indicative of Ennis own internal struggle with homophobia, and I think serves the purpose better than if we would have seen Ennis just pull over and puke on the side of the road in broad daylight. But that's just my opinion.
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Take, for instance, the alley scene after Ennis and Jack come down from BBM. First, Ennis not having his own truck shows us just how poverty stricken Ennis was (and the theme of poverty plays out throughout the movie). Second, I think Ennis kneeling down to puke in the shadows of the alley is such a powerful image. He is heartbroken over parting from Jack, but retreats into the shadows of the alley to cry alone and in shame. He even covers his face with his cowboy hat. I think this "hiding" in the alley is indicative of Ennis own internal struggle with homophobia, and I think serves the purpose better than if we would have seen Ennis just pull over and puke on the side of the road in broad daylight. But that's just my opinion.
While I love the book soooo much and think it has dialouge and information that is brilliant, I am more drawn to the movie... for all the reasons that Stacp stated above.. how lucky are we to have both an incredible book and an incredible movie.. :)
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I think this "hiding" in the alley is indicative of Ennis own internal struggle with homophobia, and I think serves the purpose better than if we would have seen Ennis just pull over and puke on the side of the road in broad daylight. But that's just my opinion.
Not only that, he just punched the first person, maybe in his whole life, who loved him. Ennis can't deal with feelings and he had a compelling need to drive Jack away because of how it made him "feel" emotions for the first time or in a long time.
When he casually dismisses Jacks question about coming back next year and lets Jack just drive away, he understands what he has just done. (I believe this mirrors their last meeting where Ennis again drives Jack away). Ennis was pretty much being a jerk when they parted but that's the only way he knew who to deal with feelings. They were too powerful for him to stand.
Jack wanted to love him but Ennis couldn't deal with that. When he breaks down, he's pretty much saying "what the fuck did I just do? Why did I do that? Why did I hurt him? Why didn't I apologize? Why did I let him go?"
Just as in the end, Ennis is left to deal with his regrets.
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I think Ennis kneeling down to puke in the shadows of the alley is such a powerful image. He is heartbroken over parting from Jack, but retreats into the shadows of the alley to cry alone and in shame. He even covers his face with his cowboy hat. I think this "hiding" in the alley is indicative of Ennis own internal struggle with homophobia, and I think serves the purpose better than if we would have seen Ennis just pull over and puke on the side of the road in broad daylight. But that's just my opinion.
Excellent!
and along with the whole duality/bookends, we have an alley scene with Ennis in the dark and the light behind him and then later Jack in an alley in the light walking with the Mexican hooker into the dark. Ennis stays in the dark and because of Ennis, Jack goes from light to dark.
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and along with the whole duality/bookends, we have an alley scene with Ennis in the dark and the light behind him and then later Jack in an alley in the light walking with the Mexican hooker into the dark. Ennis stays in the dark and because of Ennis, Jack goes from light to dark.
That is so insightful... I swear I realize something new and incredible about this movie everyday! It makes me wonder if all movies have this much depth and I just haven't taken the time to really think about them? hummm... maybe. p.s.- I have gotten two people to rent the DVD so far... I love talking to people who have seen it for the first time.. its so exciting to see someone be like 'wow... you were so right, that movie was incredible" :)
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I think this "hiding" in the alley is indicative of Ennis own internal struggle with homophobia, and I think serves the purpose better than if we would have seen Ennis just pull over and puke on the side of the road in broad daylight. But that's just my opinion.
Not only that, he just punched the first person, maybe in his whole life, who loved him. Ennis can't deal with feelings and he had a compelling need to drive Jack away because of how it made him "feel" emotions for the first time or in a long time.
When he casually dismisses Jacks question about coming back next year and lets Jack just drive away, he understands what he has just done. (I believe this mirrors their last meeting where Ennis again drives Jack away). Ennis was pretty much being a jerk when they parted but that's the only way he knew who to deal with feelings. They were too powerful for him to stand.
Jack wanted to love him but Ennis couldn't deal with that. When he breaks down, he's pretty much saying "what the fuck did I just do? Why did I do that? Why did I hurt him? Why didn't I apologize? Why did I let him go?"
Just as in the end, Ennis is left to deal with his regrets.
Emotions are scary things for Ennis types straight or Gay. We just don't know what to do with them or sometimes what they even are. David, this is kind of scaring me but, I agree with your post. The only exception was it took him a year to figure it all out but, the alley was the beginning.
Stop gloating. It's not pretty. ;)
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I was just wondering how Ennis would have felt about Jack if they had been seperated for like 10 years? Do you think the intensity would have dimmed... or strengthed? I have had really strong feelings for people before, and when those feelings go unnutured for too long, they dim. I am not sure about Ennis though... do you think he would have held on to the memory of Jack as his one true love, even if he never saw him again?
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I think different people interact with their memories in different ways. For some, their longings fade as their memories fade. For others, their memories solidify with time and their longings become that much more anchored. While Jack is alive, Ennis' love for him never wavers even though there have been the distractions of Alma, the girls and Cassie, not to mention crushing social disapproval. So it's clear Ennis is pretty resilient when it comes to holding onto to things dear to him. He isn't someone taken to changes. The odds, therefore should be in favour of him keeping and honouring his memories of Jack to the end. One more factor for that is Ennis doesn't initiate relationships. With the exception of Alma, which is not indicated one way or the other, Ennis' relationships are begun FOR him by others. He's not going to go out there to look for a mate. That said, in the same vein, people are drawn to Ennis. He's so enigmatic, strong and just plain gorgeous. Others will continue to fall for him and attempt to start something with him (like Cassie). Up to Ennis to respond or not. But given his desolate state of mind, given his set ways, given the lingering power of a lifelong love that's never quite fulfilled, I'd say Ennis stays true to Jack til the end.
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I think Ennis kneeling down to puke in the shadows of the alley is such a powerful image. He is heartbroken over parting from Jack, but retreats into the shadows of the alley to cry alone and in shame. He even covers his face with his cowboy hat. I think this "hiding" in the alley is indicative of Ennis own internal struggle with homophobia, and I think serves the purpose better than if we would have seen Ennis just pull over and puke on the side of the road in broad daylight. But that's just my opinion.
Excellent!
and along with the whole duality/bookends, we have an alley scene with Ennis in the dark and the light behind him and then later Jack in an alley in the light walking with the Mexican hooker into the dark. Ennis stays in the dark and because of Ennis, Jack goes from light to dark.
That walk into the darkness is such a powerful metaphor. It's like Jack walking into the underworld - physically, emotionally, spiritually and eventually bodily. The ultimate fall from Brokeback Eden. I often wonder, if Mexico was the scene of his post divorce misery and desperation, why does he want to go there with Ennis or was that just a throwaway line?
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I think the Mexico thing is Jack venting his frustration at Ennis holding him on that short leash and dictating the terms of the relationship. Ennis seems to dictate when and where they meet (for the most part) and Ennis is not willing to travel to Texas or even a half-way point to meet. Jack does all the driving. I think Jack is saying, " I, for once want you to do things on my terms. I want to meet in a different location, other than the mountains, closer to my home (Mexico fits both of these criteria)." I think Jack wants to have a little more control and wants Ennis to budge a little for him, as Jack has had to do all these years.
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The expression on his face makes me cry. He is so sad, so disillusioned. There is no expectation, no anticipation, no desire, nothing. I can´t help but thinking/imagining that whatever happened in the dark alley with the guy, that Jack was crying while doing it or letting it happen.
I think you are absolutely right. I felt so awful for him here. You are hit full in the solar plexus with Jack's desperation and utter devastation.
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The expression on his face makes me cry. He is so sad, so disillusioned. There is no expectation, no anticipation, no desire, nothing. I can´t help but thinking/imagining that whatever happened in the dark alley with the guy, that Jack was crying while doing it or letting it happen.
I think you are absolutely right. I felt so awful for him here. You are hit full in the solar plexus with Jack's desperation and utter devastation.
I wonder, after the Mexican hook-up, do you think Jack was racked with guilt? Do you think his trips to Mexico became more frequent or just once in a while to scratch the sex itch? I'm thinking Jack probably felt guilty about it but did go to Mexico occasionally (2-3 a year) because as we know, he isn't satisfied with a couple of high altitude f*cks once or twice a year. Shame of Ennis for not putting out more! :'(
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I don't think Jack would be racked with guilt after Mexico. An optimist and easy-going guy, he doesn't seem to be someone who would do something and then be sent on a big guilt trip over it. Whenever he's with Ennis, he's just deliriously happy. Nothing suggests he feels not worthy for Ennis' love. To me, he's obviously come to terms with his more *outgoing* sexuality. It is just in him to naturally gravitate towards sexual possibilities. The rodeo clown. Even Lureen. He seems to be able to draw a line between sex sex and love sex. And he's at peace with it. If he is someone who can't make it on a couple of mountain fucks a yr and yet he stays with Ennis for nearly 20 yrs when what he gets from the man is so pitifully inadequate, that says something about Jack's tremendous need and capacity not for sex, but love. When after nearly 20 yrs, on their last gathering, Jack suddenly turns sombre after handing Ennis all those half truths about cheating on Lureen with Randall's wife and says, *the truth is, I sometimes miss you so bad, I can hardly stand it*, that to me is a defining moment of how true and deep Jack's love is for Ennis.
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I don't think Jack would be racked with guilt after Mexico. An optimist and easy-going guy, he doesn't seem to be someone who would do something and then be sent on a big guilt trip over it. Whenever he's with Ennis, he's just deliriously happy. Nothing suggests he feels not worthy for Ennis' love. To me, he's obviously come to terms with his more *outgoing* sexuality. It is just in him to naturally gravitate towards sexual possibilities. The rodeo clown. Even Lureen. He seems to be able to draw a line between sex sex and love sex.
*the truth is, I sometimes miss you so bad, I can hardly stand it*, that to me is a defining moment of how true and deep Jack's love is for Ennis.
I'm wouldn't say it was guilt but, we do see a change in Jack. He isn't that optimistic and easy-going guy after the Divorce scene. He gets progressively more somber, his smiles are fewer, his eyes are "flatter" and his sexual hookups after the Divorce scene seem somewhat perfunctory. He is still handsome in his mid to late 30s but the joyful boy is gone. We see a man just trying to get through the day. He has taken a page out of Ennis book of pragmatism, he has a need and it is dealt with but we no longer see Jack enjoying blissed out, joyful sex. We don't get any more sex scenes with Ennis (although god, I hope he gets his moments of bliss with Ennis) and the Mexico/Randall, he can't even manage a half hearted smile, those preambles are just heartbreaking.
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*the truth is, I sometimes miss you so bad, I can hardly stand it*, that to me is a defining moment of how true and deep Jack's love is for Ennis.
Thats the line that punches me in the gut.
I can relate to that line unfortunately.
I think at that point Jack has lost his 'boyish' optimism and has seen just how things will always be.
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Don't know if I am alone in this. But the one and only scene in the movie which I have a little problem with from a realism angle is the one where Jack seeks out Ennis after the divorce only to be pushed away by Ennis. I just find it logistically not making sense. The guy has driven all the way down from another State for 14 hours. Ennis may be callus, but even he wouldn't send him back RIGHT AWAY. The girls are no reason, either. Some little arrangement can be made very easily. All Ennis has to do is to tell Jack, "look rodeo, this is not a good time. I have the girls for the day. But wait for me at motel Siesta. I'll come by once I tuck the girls in" And from then on, the girls get Ennis during the day while Jack has him for the nite. It would be so easy. There's no Alma around to answer to. Even if Ennis wants to make a deliberate gesture to show Jack that he wants no settling down BS, he could have done it in a motel after at least making out with Jack. Why waste such a great opportunity to have some great sex, not to mention spending time with his love. Jack is already there right in front of him. The screenplay says Ennis is nontheless THRILLED to see Jack. But I don't get it at all from the scene. I don't buy the fear factor, either which the director apparently wishes to show through Ennis' nervous glance. But they have checked into a motel before. They even kissed out in the open right in front of Ennis' apartment. Besides, there's such a thing as being discreet. They don''t have to pounce on each other until they're behind close door. To have Jack turned away cruelly like that seems to me a little contrived. All for the effect of showing how Jack is always the needy one and Ennis the scared one. And of course, to lay the ground for that very heartwrenching Jack's crying scene right after. But this is just a little less than real logistically.
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Did they kiss in the open at the reunion scene? No. Not exactly. Fear was there, and it was the first thing Ennis took care of. He first looked around to check if anyone can see them, and then let loose "the thing". His kissing Jack was not spontaneous.
Fear. Always, strong.
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Obiphil, the things that you have said bothered me too.
However, I think that Jack has overstepped a line by coming down, and Ennis panics and makes sure the boundaries are clear. I also think Ennis looks like he's on the edge of letting it all spill over some of the time - I think he doesn't think it through consciously but he's scared that if he gives that little bit there's no going back. Also, it's not just about that one night or weekend - what he is being confronted with is a change in their whole future together. He can't think about it rationally.
I think that's an important thing about Ennis - I don't think he thinks deeply and analytically in that way. It's much more about feelings for him.
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Don't know if I am alone in this. But the one and only scene in the movie which I have a little problem with from a realism angle is the one where Jack seeks out Ennis after the divorce only to be pushed away by Ennis. I just find it logistically not making sense. The guy has driven all the way down from another State for 14 hours. Ennis may be callus, but even he wouldn't send him back RIGHT AWAY. The girls are no reason, either. Some little arrangement can be made very easily. All Ennis has to do is to tell Jack, "look rodeo, this is not a good time. I have the girls for the day. But wait for me at motel Siesta. I'll come by once I tuck the girls in" And from then on, the girls get Ennis during the day while Jack has him for the nite. It would be so easy.
Madlori bases her fan fiction "Human Interest" on this possibility
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I don't think Jack would be racked with guilt after Mexico. An optimist and easy-going guy, he doesn't seem to be someone who would do something and then be sent on a big guilt trip over it. Whenever he's with Ennis, he's just deliriously happy. Nothing suggests he feels not worthy for Ennis' love. To me, he's obviously come to terms with his more *outgoing* sexuality. It is just in him to naturally gravitate towards sexual possibilities. The rodeo clown. Even Lureen. He seems to be able to draw a line between sex sex and love sex.
*the truth is, I sometimes miss you so bad, I can hardly stand it*, that to me is a defining moment of how true and deep Jack's love is for Ennis.
I'm wouldn't say it was guilt but, we do see a change in Jack. He isn't that optimistic and easy-going guy after the Divorce scene. He gets progressively more somber, his smiles are fewer, his eyes are "flatter" and his sexual hookups after the Divorce scene seem somewhat perfunctory. He is still handsome in his mid to late 30s but the joyful boy is gone. We see a man just trying to get through the day. He has taken a page out of Ennis book of pragmatism, he has a need and it is dealt with but we no longer see Jack enjoying blissed out, joyful sex. We don't get any more sex scenes with Ennis (although god, I hope he gets his moments of bliss with Ennis) and the Mexico/Randall, he can't even manage a half hearted smile, those preambles are just heartbreaking.
This is a great observation City Girl. There is definitely a change in Jack' s demeanor after the divorce scene. We never again see the happy-go-lucky Jack we do before the divorce scene. It's like a piece of him died that day when he began to realize Ennis would never come around.
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This is a great observation City Girl. There is definitely a change in Jack' s demeanor after the divorce scene. We never again see the happy-go-lucky Jack we do before the divorce scene. It's like a piece of him died that day when he began to realize Ennis would never come around.
stop making me cry... :'( :'(
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This is a great observation City Girl. There is definitely a change in Jack' s demeanor after the divorce scene. We never again see the happy-go-lucky Jack we do before the divorce scene. It's like a piece of him died that day when he began to realize Ennis would never come around.
stop making me cry... :'( :'(
I've cried so much, I've run out of kleenex. Got desperate and tried to use a dryer sheet to blow my nose . . .wouldn't recommend. You sneeze like a mad dog the rest of the day! :D
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This is a great observation City Girl. There is definitely a change in Jack' s demeanor after the divorce scene. We never again see the happy-go-lucky Jack we do before the divorce scene. It's like a piece of him died that day when he began to realize Ennis would never come around.
stop making me cry... :'( :'(
I've cried so much, I've run out of kleenex. Got desperate and tried to use a dryer sheet to blow my nose . . .wouldn't recommend. You sneeze like a mad dog the rest of the day! :D
dryer sheets! LOL!!!
These days I wear an old sweater to sop up tears and my nose. You know, one of these days I really should get around to washing it. :-\
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[quote author=City Girl link=topic=1054.msg155927#msg155927 date=1144621041
These days I wear an old sweater to sop up tears and my nose. You know, one of these days I really should get around to washing it. :-\
You know what is strange? I almost never cry when I am watching the movie.. it is always later, in some random location... like, whenever I am driving and hear any remotely sad song.. I just start crying... (then someone tries to cut me off and I stop feeling sad and start feeling angry.. >:()
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Don't know if I am alone in this. But the one and only scene in the movie which I have a little problem with from a realism angle is the one where Jack seeks out Ennis after the divorce only to be pushed away by Ennis. I just find it logistically not making sense. The guy has driven all the way down from another State for 14 hours. Ennis may be callus, but even he wouldn't send him back RIGHT AWAY. The girls are no reason, either. Some little arrangement can be made very easily. All Ennis has to do is to tell Jack, "look rodeo, this is not a good time. I have the girls for the day. But wait for me at motel Siesta. I'll come by once I tuck the girls in" And from then on, the girls get Ennis during the day while Jack has him for the nite. It would be so easy. There's no Alma around to answer to. Even if Ennis wants to make a deliberate gesture to show Jack that he wants no settling down BS, he could have done it in a motel after at least making out with Jack. Why waste such a great opportunity to have some great sex, not to mention spending time with his love. Jack is already there right in front of him. The screenplay says Ennis is nontheless THRILLED to see Jack. But I don't get it at all from the scene. I don't buy the fear factor, either which the director apparently wishes to show through Ennis' nervous glance. But they have checked into a motel before. They even kissed out in the open right in front of Ennis' apartment. Besides, there's such a thing as being discreet. They don''t have to pounce on each other until they're behind close door. To have Jack turned away cruelly like that seems to me a little contrived. All for the effect of showing how Jack is always the needy one and Ennis the scared one. And of course, to lay the ground for that very heartwrenching Jack's crying scene right after. But this is just a little less than real logistically.
What a great post. I agree with you on this. I thought it was a little harsh.
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This scene, to me, is revealed by the white truck that Ennis glances toward and to which Jack turns back to see. The truck, to me, represents the outside forces of society patrolling the terrain of life keeping the land free from the love for which Ennis and Jack have for one another. Ennis has been so imprinted with fear of these outside forces which might discover his heart's secret.
Later, after Alma confronts him with what she knows through her own observation, Ennis asks Jack the sadly fearful questions about his own feelings that others are looking at him and that "they know". His fear that Alma just need tell one person and all would find out. This fear of "them" is no small thing to him. "They" thought the two old birds of his youth were jokes but then "they" brutally killed one.
He views "them" as coyotees after the sheep, "we're suppose to guard the sheep not eat them." Ennis's fear is not just for himself. It's for Jack. "What I don't know could get you killed". His love for Jack, endangers Jack. He knows this. He fears for Jack that he will go elswhere for this love and be found out. But he will protect Jack by not putting their relationship before the cruelty of a heartless world. Ennis knows his own passion toward Jack would ultimately break loose in public at some point as it did when they saw one another after four years. He believes this is the only way he can control their relationship - if they can ride it together, and hide it from the outside world "out here in the middle of nowhere" then perhaps, there on Brokeback Mountain it can at least exist for the two of them. But once "they" are introduced to it's reality, it is in danger. This is how Ennis shepherds. This is how he loves. The tragedy is that he is right about his fears.
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NewArtz, this was a very inciteful post. There's a debate going on over at Jack's thread regarding society vs. internal conflict on what kept Jack and Ennis apart. This would be great re-posted over there.
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For me, Ennis's story to his daughters is a charming show of modesty, that is meant to make us warm to Ennis and understand how much he adored his daughters. The expression on Alma's face is an attempt by her to hide the urge to smile! (and a nice parallel to Lureen's attempt to hide her smile when Jack puts his father-in-law in his place). This is the Ennis she fell in love with, this is the Ennis that still dominates her thoughts, even though she has chosen to be with someone that loves her and can provide a better life for her and the kids. The contrast between the charming Ennis at the table, and the bitter Ennis (once burnt) at the kitchen sink, is stark. This is probably one reason why she gets angry, and starts to dredge up the past, i.e. her obsession with the truth about his and Jack's real relationship.
Ex-Ennis
(Above quote is from the Brokeback and Masculinity thread)
It is really amazing how the same scene can be interpreted in so different ways! I must say I saw it the same way as Ex-Ennis,
with a little difference concerning the scene with Alma and Ennis in the kitchen:
Alma's question about Ennis getting married again is an expression of genuine concern and affection on her part.
Ennis' "once burnt" answer is not out of bitterness, he is just tired of that question and doesn't want to talk about it, and it is just an attempt to shrug the whole thing off.
Alma misunderstands Ennis here and gets mad at what she sees as an unfair accusation. Isn't this how fights usually start -
a little misunderstanding and then one word takes the other.
Iver
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For me, Ennis's story to his daughters is a charming show of modesty, that is meant to make us warm to Ennis and understand how much he adored his daughters. The expression on Alma's face is an attempt by her to hide the urge to smile! (and a nice parallel to Lureen's attempt to hide her smile when Jack puts his father-in-law in his place). This is the Ennis she fell in love with, this is the Ennis that still dominates her thoughts, even though she has chosen to be with someone that loves her and can provide a better life for her and the kids. The contrast between the charming Ennis at the table, and the bitter Ennis (once burnt) at the kitchen sink, is stark. This is probably one reason why she gets angry, and starts to dredge up the past, i.e. her obsession with the truth about his and Jack's real relationship.
Ex-Ennis
Finally -- someone who sees it my way! ;)
There's more going on in Alma than anger. Michelle Williams, once again, proves what a nuanced actress she is. When she's listening to Ennis charming their daughters once again, the ghost of a smile flickers across her face, almost involuntarily; this is the man with whom she fell in love, and she realizes that, whatever else he is, he's a good father. Seconds later the rage engulfs her again, and we know what happens next.
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can I chime in and redirect to another point?
I think that the ostensible reason for Alma mentioning Jack was because Ennis responds negatively to her suggestion that he marry again. If she is like "most people" then she believes that homosexuality is curable by marriage. And her investment in Ennis's cure is shown by her comment about "me and the girls are worried about you." I think there is a genuine (though misplaced) concern in her wanting him to remarry. When he shows how disinterested he is in marrying is when she becomes angry and bitter, and it is not too hard to imagine that she blames Jack for his disinterest in women, and probably on the failure of her marriage, which is why she calls him "Jack Nasty." I tend toward the theory that Alma has always blamed Jack for Ennis's queerness, because she can't blame him.
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Yeah, Alma blames Jack and is angry at Ennis for witholding from her what is due while giving it to Jack "Nasty". She has no respect for the man she so obviously worshiped initially. Women caught up in a relationship with a homosexual man can barely resist the bitterness as a valid response to their having been "lied to" and "cheated". Homosexual men have to deal with these same feelings of having been burnt. I told my x wife once that I never held it against her that she was a woman and she shouldn't hold it against me that I am gay. We are who we are despite what others desire us to be. The problem comes because gay men have limited options and yet fully developed needs. If Ennis and Jack could have they would have fulfilled one another, but there was no container for their love other than Brokeback Mountain.
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Ennis's fear is not just for himself. It's for Jack. "What I don't know could get you killed". His love for Jack, endangers Jack. He knows this. He fears for Jack....
I think if you consider the whole sentence that Ennis says to Jack..."All them things I don't know could get you killed IF I SHOULD COME TO KNOW THEM...you realize that he is threatening Jack in a jealous rage. He does not want to know the details of the sexual encounters Jack has had in Mexico. By lashing out at Jack in this way he is really declaring his love for him. It's the only time before Jack's death that Ennis comes close to saying how much Jack means to him and he does it here by inference. We've all been guilty of that at one time or another. We say things we don't mean and them we make up, although we don't usually end up sobbing in each others arms on the ground as they did. This completely wipes me out every time I see it.
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Absolutely right, newartz. Ennis' going ballistic over Mexico is most certainly about jealousy. And that's one of the yummiest scenes for me, too. The usually inscutable Ennis' flipping out that way is a triple strong statement of *Jack's mine. All of him. MINE!" Seeing Ennis getting all possessive so out-of-characterly just melts me into jello.
Talking about jealousy, here's something I've been wondering for a while. The 2 guys seem to handle each other's flings with women and men in a very different way. They talk about their liaisons with women as if it was no big deal, pretty much like 2 straight buddies chatting about their sexual conquests - totally inconsequential with no threat to their interest. Ennis tells Jack about Cassie and Jack lies about having an affair with Randall's wife (apparently because Ennis would be jealous over Randall?) and they both laugh about those incidents. But even the slightest mention of Mexico turns Ennis into a raging bull ready to kill. Why the double standards? Is is because :
1. They knew neither of them would be serious about women? The stories about women are just smokescreen?
2. Cowboys, even though they are really attracted only to other cowboys must by culture and formalilty have flings with women?
The double standards I find a little difficult to understand personally. As a gay man, I'd find it hard to stomach whether my man has done it with a man or a woman. I'd be very hurt almost all the same. Another man would be more threatening but a woman could be an interloper as well. If I were Jack and Ennis was sitting next to me telling me about a Cassie, that'd destroy my day. Even if I were pretty sure my man was gay, I still wouldn't enjoy hearing him talk about being close to a girl in that way.
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Sorry. It should be bluebird's remarks on Mexico being about jealousy that I agree with.
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Talking about jealousy, here's something I've been wondering for a while. The 2 guys seem to handle each other's flings with women and men in a very different way. They talk about their liaisons with women as if it was no big deal, pretty much like 2 straight buddies chatting about their sexual conquests - totally inconsequential with no threat to their interest. Ennis tells Jack about Cassie and Jack lies about having an affair with Randall's wife (apparently because Ennis would be jealous over Randall?) and they both laugh about those incidents. But even the slightest mention of Mexico turns Ennis into a raging bull ready to kill. Why the double standards? Is is because :
1. They knew neither of them would be serious about women? The stories about women are just smokescreen?
2. Cowboys, even though they are really attracted only to other cowboys must by culture and formalilty have flings with women?
They both knew that what they had together was special, and that no relationship with a woman could ever replace it.
Affairs with women, to them, were just a necessary part of their lives outside Brokeback - nothing to be taken too seriously.
Iver
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That walk into the darkness is such a powerful metaphor. It's like Jack walking into the underworld - physically, emotionally, spiritually and eventually bodily. The ultimate fall from Brokeback Eden. I often wonder, if Mexico was the scene of his post divorce misery and desperation, why does he want to go there with Ennis or was that just a throwaway line?
I think they had Jack mention Mexico cause they had to set up Ennis for the "what they got in Mexico for boys like you" line. And Jack came to depend on those Mexico trips as an outlet, so maybe became more jaded about it over time.
But, yeah, his first visit to Mexico and his walk down that dark alley is great symbolism, though not totally original. You should see the Tennessee Williams film, The Roman Spring of Mrs. Stone, with Vivian Leigh in the title role. When she throws down her apartment keys to the man on the dark street, we know death will ensue. It has a very young Warren Beatty as a a gigolo, and he is tres hot, but it's very much a film about desperate sex and death.
Jack's in that alley just stumbling like a zombie. It's clear he hates what he is doing, but has been reduced to it by his hurt and loneliness. It's another powerful scene.
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*the truth is, sometimes I miss you so bad, I can hardly stand it*, that to me is a defining moment of how true and deep Jack's love is for Ennis.
Thats the line that punches me in the gut.
I can relate to that line unfortunately.
I think at that point Jack has lost his 'boyish' optimism and has seen just how things will always be.
Oh, god, that line, and Jake's delivery and expression, is the saddest thing in the film for me, just kills me every time.
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They both knew that what they had together was special, and that no relationship with a woman could ever replace it.
Affairs with women, to them, were just a necessary part of their lives outside Brokeback - nothing to be taken too seriously.
Particularly considering the sense of paranoia Ennis carried with him all of the time, their relationships with women are part of the protective cover of concealing their relationship from the outside world and presumably protecting them from interference and violence. This dynamic simply would not exist in a social setting in which men are living openly together and are out of the closet. There is no reason for protective cover. Ennis and Jack have confirmed for one another the need for protective cover (and resources, in Jack's case) in the form of a woman, and it is part of their personal world to preserve their connection to one another.
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They both knew that what they had together was special, and that no relationship with a woman could ever replace it.
Affairs with women, to them, were just a necessary part of their lives outside Brokeback - nothing to be taken too seriously.
Iver
What they have is special alright. That should save them from being insecure about both men and women. Yet they are obviously not threatened by women but very definitely threatened by men. Ennis thinks nothing of Jack's alleged fling with Randall's wife but goes totally beserk over Jack's fling in Mexico. Why the difference? I was saying I'd be hurt all the same if my man fools around, be it with a woman or a man.
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I think Ennis has such a problem with Jack doing it with other guys because he sees himself not as a gay man. He does not have affairs or interest in other men. What he and Jack have and share, is so special to him, it is such a big secret, that he can not stand the thought that Jack shares this intimacy with another man. Women are okay. Ennis is the one who has decided against a future with Jack. So he accepts it that Jack has other relationships. But, please, never ever with a man.
From Jack we don´t know what he would feel if Ennis has an affair with a man. Ennis made it in their reunion night clear that he does not have interest in other men, only in Jack. So I think Jack knows there are no other men. Women, yes. Jack even asks Ennis if he didn´t found anyone else to marry. Same question Alma asks. Jack is so disillusioned after Ennis sent him away after the divorce, he is so sure there is no future living together anymore that he would even consider that Ennis marries again.
I also think that Ennis maybe feels guilty later about his line "All them things I don´t know could get you killed" - and then Jack is dead. You know, like someone - children often do this - saying in a rage "I wish you were dead". When the one they are saying this too, really dies, they feel terribly guilty. Ennis feels guilty anyway, but maybe this line contributes to it even more.
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I had not thought of the guilt that Ennis sustained within himself because of those words he let loose. I saw their initial effect after Jack rebuked him, and could sense that Ennis felt wrong to hold Jack on a "short leash" that deprived Jack of what he knew he also felt missing. "Why don't you quit me?" because you have me on a leash, too. Maybe without you I can be happy too and not be the lost soul that I am. He wasn't rejecting Jack, he was releasing him, and Jack knew it. I imagine that later when Jack's father tells Ennis that his son had told him in the spring that he was bringing another man to live there, that Jack had told his father this after that final meeting. It was yet another dream Jack was trying to formulate, this one in order to "quit Ennis". His dream of bringing Ennis and building a cabin there was to hold him, to keep him and to engulf him as his shirt enveloped Ennis's. He was trying to unchain himself because loneliness did not sustain Jack anymore than it did Ennis, but Jack knew it didn't. But he had made the chain himself, and every chain the maker breaks could not keep him from loving Ennis.
Those words, "All those things that I don't know could get you killed" were spoken to establish Ennis's possession of Jack's heart and faithfulness to make the chain, but the only way Ennis could get them out was to threaten. Moments later, he regretted them and attempted to break the chain and release Jack, "Why don't you quit me". These words were spoken from a breaking heart, releasing Jack, but spoken as rejection. The guilt from these words must have haunted Ennis deeply. It was not his desire to hurt Jack, but Ennis felt that no matter what, he always would, as he had everyone who tried to love him - Alma, Cassie and even Alma Jr. as she got out of the truck after asking to live with him.
That Ennis received Alma Jr.'s invitation to her wedding is such a breakthrough for Ennis, but it had only come through the constant penance he experienced when he looked on the shirts and the postcard picture of Brokeback Mountain. These were Jack's eyes upon him, these were the remnants of a love he had wished would die. His devotion was his plea for forgiveness and a way to deal with the guilt of those words. The essential reality that cannot be denied is that all those words were squeezed out by love, a love condemned, restrained and filtered through the strain of life. It was a force of nature though, and could not be denied.
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I found this on-line:
http://mister-don.livejournal.com/89313.html
You can copy and paste and reset it in your favorite font and print out copies for friends and family and carry it around on flash discs or on old floppy discs that you can drop around the office or the subway or anything you can think of...the possibilities of spreading the word are endless.
I have such a file, too and it is very handy when you want to quote from the story. But I would never post the whole story online because it is clearly a violation of copyright. But of course I understand that a lot of people are really really happy to read it who haven´t bought the book (and I feel not so guilty having it as a file because until today I bought three different versions of the book... :D)
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jack's relationship with his son is a bit confusing for me. when ennis introduces jack to alma, jack mentions his son and simply says "(he) smiles a lot." it sounds a bit emotionally detached.
As you know, in the story Ennis says he had a boy..and Jack says he "never wanted none of any kind." I think he was detached and I think that Jack's family life was much more of a front than Ennis' was.
Too, I think Bobby was the single casting error made on this film. The kid doesn't sound, or behave, like he's from Texas...he sounds like he's from the Bronx!
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jack's relationship with his son is a bit confusing for me. when ennis introduces jack to alma, jack mentions his son and simply says "(he) smiles a lot." it sounds a bit emotionally detached.
As you know, in the story Ennis says he had a boy..and Jack says he "never wanted none of any kind." I think he was detached and I think that Jack's family life was much more of a front than Ennis' was.
Too, I think Bobby was the single casting error made on this film. The kid doesn't sound, or behave, like he's from Texas...he sounds like he's from the Bronx!
I think Jack just wanted to say something. After the kiss he wasn´t so capable of bringing out very rational stuff...
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jack's relationship with his son is a bit confusing for me. when ennis introduces jack to alma, jack mentions his son and simply says "(he) smiles a lot." it sounds a bit emotionally detached.
As you know, in the story Ennis says he had a boy..and Jack says he "never wanted none of any kind." I think he was detached and I think that Jack's family life was much more of a front than Ennis' was.
Too, I think Bobby was the single casting error made on this film. The kid doesn't sound, or behave, like he's from Texas...he sounds like he's from the Bronx!
There is another casting error, though as a Canadian I ain't complainin' :) And that's the barman who tells Jack about Lureen's father's money. He sounds soooooo
Canadian, I expected him to say "eh?"
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There is another casting error, though as a Canadian I ain't complainin' :) And that's the barman who tells Jack about Lureen's father's money. He sounds soooooo
Canadian, I expected him to say "eh?"
Oh, didn't notice that in 100+ viewings....drat, must divert energies from real work and put in dvd for BBM research! ;)
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Iver---think you make some good points about Alma and Ennis's argument in the kitchen, although I really believe Alma got so upset because Ennis says "once burned.' The rest of the adage is "twice shy." So she thought Ennis was blaming her for their divorce because he inferred that he had been intentionally hurt by her (burned), when, in fact, she knew that the main cause of their parting was his relationship with Jack and not her fault at all.
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Ok, I was just discussing with a few other Broke-aholics whether or not Lureen would have suspected Jack was gay, and an intersting theory came to mind, let me know if this seems plausible or if I'm just shooting in the dark here...
(BTW, I apologize ahead of time if this is being put in the wrong thread)
OK, consider the scene at the dance where Lureen says "Husbands don't never seem to want to dance with their wives. Why do you think that is Jack". The script uses the term "sarcastic", but to me, it possibly comes across as bitter sounding. Now...
Something about Jack asking Lashawn to dance always interested me. Not because it seemed out of character or awkward, but I wondered if he asks her to dance to spite Lureen. Now I find myself wondering if it was to possibly draw her attention away from something. Bear with me here...
I don't know if cues from the movie support this theory, but is it possible that she sees Randall eying Jack in this scene at the table? It looks like Randall catches Jack's eye and Jack, in his excitement, gets cigarette ashes on himself. Isn't it this moment when Lureen chimes in with her "Husband's...." comment? Is Jack asking Lashawn to dance a purposeful way to displace Lureen's sudden jealousy of Randall's ogling onto something more heterosexual? I'm going to be looking for this next time I watch the movie, let me know what you guys think...
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Oh, yeah, I think spilling the ashes is significant, things like that don't happen by accident in a film like this! And "dance with" very much is a euphemism for "sex with" as Lureen is using it, I think. I think Lureen is taking a shot at Jack's manliness, and he wants to show her he can still "dance with" a woman by asking LaShawn to dance.
Anybody else wonder what Lureen and Randall talked about at the table. ;D
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Too, I think Bobby was the single casting error made on this film. The kid doesn't sound, or behave, like he's from Texas...he sounds like he's from the Bronx!
He also sounds and looks like he's been snorting helium hoping for a remake of "The Wizard of Oz"!
I couldn't understand what he said the first time I saw this scene--I heard something about "two weeks" and that was it until I got the DVD.
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I think Bobby shows the unfortunate influence of Stud Duck, that's one reason Jack feels less attached to his kid. Stud Duck made him feel like an interloper from day one, at the hospital.
Jack does have that cute "no hands!" but with Bobby though. I think he tried.
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Oh, yeah, I think spilling the ashes is significant, things like that don't happen by accident in a film like this! And "dance with" very much is a euphemism for "sex with" as Lureen is using it, I think. I think Lureen is taking a shot at Jack's manliness, and he wants to show her he can still "dance with" a woman by asking LaShawn to dance.
Anybody else wonder what Lureen and Randall talked about at the table. ;D
Yeah, you get the feeling that it's just awkward after Jack and Lashawn get up. I had someone tell me they didn't really care for this scene, but I loved it. On top of what's we've already discussed about it, I loved it on several different levels, and it seemed to add a little light-hearted break into the movie.
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I love this scene! Love the way it opens with the fiddlers. Faris is great too, isn't she. She's a needed bit of comic relief.
Jake's fixed smile as he dances with LaShawn is cute, and later his sardonic powdered noses observation. You can tell he's impressed stolid Randall with his wit. It's all funny, but there's a note of disaffection underneath it all too.
Then Randall lowers the boom and you see Jack with that frozen expression. All he can do is blink, he can't think what to say. He hasn't been this frozen since the scene with Aguirre. Great stuff.
I find all the Jack-Lureen scenes get better over time.
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Definitely. My respect for Anne Hathaway just keeps growing the more I watch the movie. And when Jack and Randall are sitting on the bench together, even before it came down to it, I just sensed that somebody was going to make a move on the other. Someone else mentioned before that in these shots of Jack and Randall, their cigarettes suddenly become very phallic. The holding and positioning of the cigarettes. I won't go into detail, but you get the idea.
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Too, I think Bobby was the single casting error made on this film. The kid doesn't sound, or behave, like he's from Texas...he sounds like he's from the Bronx!
He also sounds and looks like he's been snorting helium hoping for a remake of "The Wizard of Oz"!
I couldn't understand what he said the first time I saw this scene--I heard something about "two weeks" and that was it until I got the DVD.
Right. I know he's just a kid...but he's either related to someone on the film or he has one hell of an agent if he could sell that to Ang.!
Get the hook!
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Sorry this is vearing off the current topic.
I tried searching but came up empty..
Was there a significance to the white truck that drove by when Jack came to see Ennis after he recieved news of the divorce?
I didn't get it....
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All I know is it reflects Ennis' nervousness about Jack having rushed up to see him like this, asking ten people where he lived.
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Definitely. My respect for Anne Hathaway just keeps growing the more I watch the movie.
{snip}
I agree! I wish Anne had gotten a little more recognition... I think she was so perfect in the phone call scene. Her little gulps are amazing and so effectively placed. For whatever reason, I have more sympathy for Lureen than Alma.
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Iver---think you make some good points about Alma and Ennis's argument in the kitchen, although I really believe Alma got so upset because Ennis says "once burned.' The rest of the adage is "twice shy." So she thought Ennis was blaming her for their divorce because he inferred that he had been intentionally hurt by her (burned), when, in fact, she knew that the main cause of their parting was his relationship with Jack and not her fault at all.
I thought so, too. I think she truly was a little worried about Ennis being alone, though she already figured she knew why he WAS still alone--I don't think her saying that was a way for her to approach "The Topic". I'd guess that "The Topic" had been burning in her mind for a long time, but I don't know that it was her plan to say anything when they went into the kitchen. It was probably brewing just below her surface but would never have come up, until the "once burned".
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Definitely. My respect for Anne Hathaway just keeps growing the more I watch the movie.
{snip}
I agree! I wish Anne had gotten a little more recognition... I think she was so perfect in the phone call scene. Her little gulps are amazing and so effectively placed. For whatever reason, I have more sympathy for Lureen than Alma.
Oh, I think that the role of Lureen could have been phoned in as far as the original story was concerned. The only dialog that Lureen has in the book is when Ennis talks to her on the phone. Lureen is talked about by Jack in the book; but, Jack never talks to Lureen in it.
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I have a question - how do you think that Randall knew Jack might be receptive to his advances? I've been wondering about that. Also, those of you that liked Anne Hathaway's performance, how did you get past her appearance? It was the one thing in the movie (other than the completely different looking girls who played Alma, Jr.) that bugged me. In the last scene, she looked like a teenager in a wig and didn't look like she had aged at all to me, unlike Jack and Ennis.
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I have a question - how do you think that Randall knew Jack might be receptive to his advances? I've been wondering about that. Also, those of you that liked Anne Hathaway's performance, how did you get past her appearance? It was the one thing in the movie (other than the completely different looking girls who played Alma, Jr.) that bugged me. In the last scene, she looked like a teenager in a wig and didn't look like she had aged at all to me, unlike Jack and Ennis.
As far as the Randall thing goes, I think when Randall and Jack glanced at each other across the table during the dance, they just "knew" the other was attracted to men. It was all in the eyes. Their "gaydar" came on, if you will. I'm not sure if from this look alone Randall knew Jack would be "receptive" to his advances, but I guess Randall figured in a poky little town like Childress, men like he and Jack were few and far between, so he had to try (besides, Jack looked damn good in that black leather ;)).
While I think Anne H. did an amazing job as Lureen, I totally didn't buy her being in her late 30's at the end (during the phone call). They didn't give her any laugh lines or such (that I could see), and your right, she looked like a teenager with a bad wig (or one of those plastic blow up dolls). It sort of detracted from the scene. Alma, too, doesn't looked to have aged during her Thanksgiving dinner, although she has teenage daughters and is in her 30's. Ennis and Jack looked much older to me and harder, too. Maybe a reflection of all the hardship and emotional turmoil their relationship caused them over the years?
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I'm 44 and whether you've had a hard life or not, time definitely takes a toll. : ) Anyway, I've read numerous reviews praising Anne's performance but like I said, her appearance made it hard for me to appreciate. The rest of the movie, however, I absolutely LOVE and it's the first move I've ever gone out and bought. It has affected me so deeply and I can't believe how obsessed I am with it. I can't tell you how glad I was to find this forum where I realized I'm not the only one!
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I have a question - how do you think that Randall knew Jack might be receptive to his advances? I've been wondering about that. Also, those of you that liked Anne Hathaway's performance, how did you get past her appearance? It was the one thing in the movie (other than the completely different looking girls who played Alma, Jr.) that bugged me. In the last scene, she looked like a teenager in a wig and didn't look like she had aged at all to me, unlike Jack and Ennis.
I think the point of the big, bad blonder and blonder hair was that she was suppose to "look fake", to hammer the death story as fake. We spent a few pages on Lureen's attempt at glamorizing herself in an effort to catch Jack's or any man's attention in one of these threads (possibly the Jack & Lureen thread). Big, Blond hair, fake press-on nails, the flashy/blingish jewelry, that god-awful poly blouse, even her lipstick looks dried out. Glamizilla was what we ended up calling her. But, check out what the makeup people did with her teeth. Those tobacco stains are really something.
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The makeup people really did do a great job with the teeth! I just wish they had made her look older than 18 in the scenes where she was supposed to be in her 30s.
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So, I have come to realize that I liked Lureen/Anne H. for very warped reasons. You see, I feel bad for Ennis that Alma divorced him... It didn't free him up to 'love freely.' In fact, I think it made him more miserable. So, part of me, a very stupid part of me, sort of was glad that Lureen 'stood by her man.' I think Jack overall was happier with Lureen than Ennis was with Alma. I think Lureen 'knew' about Jack and tolerated it (I acknowledge this may be fiction I create in my own head), whereas Alma did not tolerate Ennis.
Now if I speak as my rational self (instead of emotional/instinctual self as above), obviously, both women were complicit in the tragedy. And, never in a million years do I want to merely 'tolerate' my husband.
As an aside, I don't blame any of the characters too much... they did the best they could with what knew, or thought they knew, about how to get through life.
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There are actually two lines in this movie that make me smile. The first is Alma's question, "Texans don't drink coffee?"
The other one isn't technically a script line, but happens when Jack is in the alley in Mexico. I have a partial hearing loss so I watch this with the subtitles/closed captioning. As Jack walks down the alley, the guy in the striped shirt says, "Senor?" - loud enough that even I can hear it. But the closed captioning says, "[Speaks Spanish]". Why couldn't the captioning just say "Senor?" I don't know why that makes me smile every time, but it does.
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There was just one bit which made me laugh, but I'm too embarrassed to mention it as it was an immature thing for me to laugh at. In fact, I think I'll have to wait till I get the DVD and check that I didn't imagine it!
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Definitely. My respect for Anne Hathaway just keeps growing the more I watch the movie.
{snip}
I agree! I wish Anne had gotten a little more recognition... I think she was so perfect in the phone call scene. Her little gulps are amazing and so effectively placed. For whatever reason, I have more sympathy for Lureen than Alma.
Nothing against Alma, I feel for her situation, but once it's all said and done, I just don't feel bad for her in the way I do for Lureen. Maybe it's because she re-marries and in a way starts over anew. By divorcing Ennis and going to Monroe, Alma seems to get a second chance at marriage to do things right. And the Thanksgiving scene shows that she may have a sense of revenge about her. We aren't privileged with much information about Lureen. Her husband dies and we know nothing more about her.
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I have a question - how do you think that Randall knew Jack might be receptive to his advances? I've been wondering about that.
The best answer I can come up with is good old fashioned "gay-dar"! It's possible. The minute I saw Randall, I just suspected some flirtation was going to take place. It's almost like pheromones are at work! It's also like that earlier scene in the bar where Jack tried to buy Jimbo the clown a beer. You know an attraction exists, but that time, you could just sense that something was wrong, the advances were not "well received".
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Iver---think you make some good points about Alma and Ennis's argument in the kitchen, although I really believe Alma got so upset because Ennis says "once burned.' The rest of the adage is "twice shy." So she thought Ennis was blaming her for their divorce because he inferred that he had been intentionally hurt by her (burned), when, in fact, she knew that the main cause of their parting was his relationship with Jack and not her fault at all.
I thought so, too. I think she truly was a little worried about Ennis being alone, though she already figured she knew why he WAS still alone--I don't think her saying that was a way for her to approach "The Topic". I'd guess that "The Topic" had been burning in her mind for a long time, but I don't know that it was her plan to say anything when they went into the kitchen. It was probably brewing just below her surface but would never have come up, until the "once burned".
OMG, I SO agree with this! I have to say, I get really PO'd at my dear Ennis when he makes that "once burned" comment. Then, his fear/rage completely takes over, and he nearly punches his PREGNANT ex-wife of 12 YEARS, when she points out that she looked the other way all those years, and is expressing some real pain over it. Sorry, but it is at this point that Ennis comes close to losing me. Then I just remind myself of his tortured sould an emotional courage in other situations, and I forgive him. See? This website is growing me up!!
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Iver---think you make some good points about Alma and Ennis's argument in the kitchen, although I really believe Alma got so upset because Ennis says "once burned.' The rest of the adage is "twice shy." So she thought Ennis was blaming her for their divorce because he inferred that he had been intentionally hurt by her (burned), when, in fact, she knew that the main cause of their parting was his relationship with Jack and not her fault at all.
I thought so, too. I think she truly was a little worried about Ennis being alone, though she already figured she knew why he WAS still alone--I don't think her saying that was a way for her to approach "The Topic". I'd guess that "The Topic" had been burning in her mind for a long time, but I don't know that it was her plan to say anything when they went into the kitchen. It was probably brewing just below her surface but would never have come up, until the "once burned".
I think she inteded to say something when they went into the kitchen.Just watch the expression on her face before they go into the kitchen. At the dinner table she already knows that she will be asking Ennis about Jack.Poor Alma.Must have been terrible for her but I´m sure she felt better after finally saying it.
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I found it interesting that Ennis put up with everything until she insults Jack.
Pretty strong emotional attachment even if he can't see it.
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What year did Alma get pregnant by Monroe? It never occurred to me she was supposed to be pregant already in Thanksgiving, 1977.
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I found it interesting that Ennis put up with everything until she insults Jack.
Pretty strong emotional attachment even if he can't see it.
Yup, I thought that was interesting too. As difficlut as it was for Ennis to realize Alma had his number, he kept it together until she insults Jack.
Also, interesting when compared with Jack's much milder "you and Alma, that's a life" and Ennis' much milder "you shut up about Alma, this ain't her fault". Ennis' reactions to both slurs are proportioned to the degree of hostility.
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I found it interesting that Ennis put up with everything until she insults Jack.
Pretty strong emotional attachment even if he can't see it.
Yup, I thought that was interesting too. As difficlut as it was for Ennis to realize Alma had his number, he kept it together until she insults Jack.
Also, interesting when compared with Jack's much milder "you and Alma, that's a life" and Ennis' much milder "you shut up about Alma, this ain't her fault". Ennis' reactions to both slurs are proportioned to the degree of hostility.
Do you think he actually loved Alma? I was never able to answer this question.. In the scenes after they left BBM it looks like he´s in love with Alma. Maybe he met Alma at a point in time when he didn´t know how much you CAN be in love and tought that he loved her. Then he met Jack and got the first taste of true love but tried to push it from him after leaving BBM. And after the reunion scene he realizes that his felings for Alma arent enough. Well, I´m not sure.
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Eniese, I think he cares for Alma. Hard to say, if love was in the equation, perhaps more like regard or affection.
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What year did Alma get pregnant by Monroe? It never occurred to me she was supposed to be pregant already in Thanksgiving, 1977.
Well, the divorce was November 6, 1975. The Thanksgiving was Nov 1977, according to the story she is 4 to 5 months pregnant, which means she gets pregnant around July or Aug 1977. So she could have married Monroe anytime from right after the divorce (which to me seems likely but there is no way to determine when) right up until mid 1977 assuming she isn't pregnant before they get married.
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I found it interesting that Ennis put up with everything until she insults Jack.
Pretty strong emotional attachment even if he can't see it.
Yup, I thought that was interesting too. As difficlut as it was for Ennis to realize Alma had his number, he kept it together until she insults Jack.
Also, interesting when compared with Jack's much milder "you and Alma, that's a life" and Ennis' much milder "you shut up about Alma, this ain't her fault". Ennis' reactions to both slurs are proportioned to the degree of hostility.
Do you think he actually loved Alma? I was never able to answer this question.. In the scenes after they left BBM it looks like he´s in love with Alma. Maybe he met Alma at a point in time when he didn´t know how much you CAN be in love and tought that he loved her. Then he met Jack and got the first taste of true love but tried to push it from him after leaving BBM. And after the reunion scene he realizes that his felings for Alma arent enough. Well, I´m not sure.
In the sled scene they almost looked like a different couple (eg Heath and Michelle!)
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In the sled scene they almost looked like a different couple (eg Heath and Michelle!)
I found that scene jarring because Ennis seems so out of character here. When did Ennis get to be this playful, light-hearted guy? I thought he was the brooding, lonely guy that only Jack managed to draw out.
I know the filmmakers thought this out..but it's a bathroom break scene for me!
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I found it interesting that Ennis put up with everything until she insults Jack.
Is it that she insults Jack? Or is it that he knows she knows? I always thought the latter...
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I found it interesting that Ennis put up with everything until she insults Jack.
Is it that she insults Jack? Or is it that he knows she knows? I always thought the latter...
I've always thought that he reached the point of panic because Alma said "You didn't go up there to fish..." and not so much that she was insulting Jack.
I could see Ennis fidgeting more and more as she was recounting the story of the fishing line.
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Is it that she insults Jack? Or is it that he knows she knows? I always thought the latter...
I've always thought that he reached the point of panic because Alma said "You didn't go up there to fish..." and not so much that she was insulting Jack.
I could see Ennis fidgeting more and more as she was recounting the story of the fishing line.
Agree. She makes it clear to him that she knows and it drives him over the edge...it's clear to him that his secret is no secret to Alma.
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Iver---think you make some good points about Alma and Ennis's argument in the kitchen, although I really believe Alma got so upset because Ennis says "once burned.' The rest of the adage is "twice shy." So she thought Ennis was blaming her for their divorce because he inferred that he had been intentionally hurt by her (burned), when, in fact, she knew that the main cause of their parting was his relationship with Jack and not her fault at all.
I thought so, too. I think she truly was a little worried about Ennis being alone, though she already figured she knew why he WAS still alone--I don't think her saying that was a way for her to approach "The Topic". I'd guess that "The Topic" had been burning in her mind for a long time, but I don't know that it was her plan to say anything when they went into the kitchen. It was probably brewing just below her surface but would never have come up, until the "once burned".
I think she inteded to say something when they went into the kitchen.Just watch the expression on her face before they go into the kitchen. At the dinner table she already knows that she will be asking Ennis about Jack.Poor Alma.Must have been terrible for her but I´m sure she felt better after finally saying it.
Yep, just that look on her face at the dinner table. You can just tell that she wants to say something. That's not to excuse Ennis for losing his temper, I just think that Alma's comments about Jack were very premeditated.
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When Ennis tells Jack, "Alma? It ain't her fault," they are in the motel in Riverton in 1967 in the book.
Ennis does state that he loves his little girls; but, he doesn't say that about Alma. Ennis thinks he has established a life in the years after Brokeback and at the time of the '67 reunion. But, he was not as settled as he claimed.
In regard to it not being Alma's fault, why did he marry her in the first place? We really have no answer to that question because she did not get pregnant until around a month after they got married.
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I found it interesting that Ennis put up with everything until she insults Jack.
Pretty strong emotional attachment even if he can't see it.
Yup, I thought that was interesting too. As difficlut as it was for Ennis to realize Alma had his number, he kept it together until she insults Jack.
Also, interesting when compared with Jack's much milder "you and Alma, that's a life" and Ennis' much milder "you shut up about Alma, this ain't her fault". Ennis' reactions to both slurs are proportioned to the degree of hostility.
Do you think he actually loved Alma? I was never able to answer this question.. In the scenes after they left BBM it looks like he´s in love with Alma. Maybe he met Alma at a point in time when he didn´t know how much you CAN be in love and tought that he loved her. Then he met Jack and got the first taste of true love but tried to push it from him after leaving BBM. And after the reunion scene he realizes that his felings for Alma arent enough. Well, I´m not sure.
As a gay man who has dated a lot of women, I could identify with the situation. Love occurs in different levels, romantic, intimate, friendly, familial, passionate. I'm sure their marriage was in some way an arrangement, or at least what seemed like the natural thing for two young people with feelings for each other in rural Wyoming in the 60's. I agree and think that after Ennis finds Jack, he is exposed to a passionate, romantic, and intimate love that was probably not present with Alma.
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In the sled scene they almost looked like a different couple (eg Heath and Michelle!)
I found that scene jarring because Ennis seems so out of character here. When did Ennis get to be this playful, light-hearted guy? I thought he was the brooding, lonely guy that only Jack managed to draw out.
I know the filmmakers thought this out..but it's a bathroom break scene for me!
Yep, that was always the part where I went to the bathroom too!
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In the sled scene they almost looked like a different couple (eg Heath and Michelle!)
I found that scene jarring because Ennis seems so out of character here. When did Ennis get to be this playful, light-hearted guy? I thought he was the brooding, lonely guy that only Jack managed to draw out.
I know the filmmakers thought this out..but it's a bathroom break scene for me!
Yep, that was always the part where I went to the bathroom too!
I think it's meant to show that he can be affectionate, even if he has trouble doing so. Same goes for the drive-in scene.
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Yes, the sled scene sticks out. Reminds me of something I read in the Rolling Stones interview, where Heath describes how this was the first scene he and Michelle shot together, and that he fell in love with her during it. Apparently she twisted her leg on one of the toboggan rides and was on crutches for the rest of the shoot. Heath says that after that, he felt he had to take care of her. So sweet... :D
Maybe what we are seeing is more Heath courting Michelle than Ennis with his fiancé?
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I found that scene jarring because Ennis seems so out of character here. When did Ennis get to be this playful, light-hearted guy? I thought he was the brooding, lonely guy that only Jack managed to draw out.
I know the filmmakers thought this out..but it's a bathroom break scene for me!
Yep, that was always the part where I went to the bathroom too!
;D ;D ;D
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I found it interesting that Ennis put up with everything until she insults Jack.
Is it that she insults Jack? Or is it that he knows she knows? I always thought the latter...
I've always thought that he reached the point of panic because Alma said "You didn't go up there to fish..." and not so much that she was insulting Jack.
I could see Ennis fidgeting more and more as she was recounting the story of the fishing line.
It's when she says, "you didn't go up there to fish, you...." that he stops her with the threat of violence. He's petrified of being exposed, he can't stand to hear the words said. Next time he sees JAck, he asks him if Lureen ever gets suspicious and if he ever thinks people know. It's been preying on his mind.
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I found it interesting that Ennis put up with everything until she insults Jack.
Pretty strong emotional attachment even if he can't see it.
Yup, I thought that was interesting too. As difficlut as it was for Ennis to realize Alma had his number, he kept it together until she insults Jack.
Also, interesting when compared with Jack's much milder "you and Alma, that's a life" and Ennis' much milder "you shut up about Alma, this ain't her fault". Ennis' reactions to both slurs are proportioned to the degree of hostility.
Do you think he actually loved Alma? I was never able to answer this question.. In the scenes after they left BBM it looks like he´s in love with Alma. Maybe he met Alma at a point in time when he didn´t know how much you CAN be in love and tought that he loved her. Then he met Jack and got the first taste of true love but tried to push it from him after leaving BBM. And after the reunion scene he realizes that his felings for Alma arent enough. Well, I´m not sure.
In the sled scene they almost looked like a different couple (eg Heath and Michelle!)
Yes! I really think this is Heath and Michelle, not Ennis and Alma. You might actually draw the conclusion from the film that it was the babies and the job pressure that destroyed the marriage ("making a living is about all I got time for"), not Ennis' being gay (some people don't think he's gay either). Some conservative critics have argued that Jack and Brokeback represent for Ennis a flight from prosaic reality.
Jack looks pretty into his sex scene with Lureen too, but I reconcile myself to this because Jack has been really, really lonely and was rebuffed in his attempt with a man, and Lureen is pretty manly (even with pendulous exposed breasts) on that scene anyway. The way she climbs on top of Jack makes her seem like the more "active" partner. It's rather like she's ravishing him, instead of the other way around (and I have to admit, Jake's expression and his tongue in that scene are just the cutest things ever--but I'll save that for eyebrows!).
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After 2 viewings there are 2 scenes I missed some words. Please inform me!
Thanks Speedhumps
\
Scene 1: In a bar, Jack offers to buy a man a drink. There is one pleasant interchange then the man says something, closing with, I think: Save your money for ??????????. Then the man joins other men across the room.
Scene 2: Killing the elk(tranquilizing Im sure). Jack shoves Ennis after the shot. What does he say?
Then Ennis shoves him back, stands up and says something, pushing him toward the elk. What does he say?
Thanks
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After 2 viewings there are 2 scenes I missed some words. Please inform me!
Thanks Speedhumps
\
Scene 1: In a bar, Jack offers to buy a man a drink. There is one pleasant interchange then the man says something, closing with, I think: Save your money for ??????????. Then the man joins other men across the room.
Scene 2: Killing the elk(tranquilizing Im sure). Jack shoves Ennis after the shot. What does he say?
Then Ennis shoves him back, stands up and says something, pushing him toward the elk. What does he say?
Thanks
The guy says " If I was to let every rodeo hand I pulled a bull off of buy me liquor, I'd been an alcoholic long ago"...then, " puling bulls off you buckaroos is just my job. SAve your money for your next entry fee."
When they kill the elk...Jack says " let's get a move on...don't want the Game and Fish to catch us with no elk." Ennis doesn't say anything...maybe grunts or something.
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After 2 viewings there are 2 scenes I missed some words. Please inform me!
Thanks Speedhumps
\
Scene 1: In a bar, Jack offers to buy a man a drink. There is one pleasant interchange then the man says something, closing with, I think: Save your money for ??????????. Then the man joins other men across the room.
Scene 2: Killing the elk(tranquilizing Im sure). Jack shoves Ennis after the shot. What does he say?
Then Ennis shoves him back, stands up and says something, pushing him toward the elk. What does he say?
Thanks
The guy says " If I was to let every rodeo hand I pulled a bull off of buy me liquor, I'd been an alcoholic long ago"...then, " puling bulls off you buckaroos is just my job. SAve your money for your next entry fee."
When they kill the elk...Jack says " let's get a move on...don't want the Game and Fish to catch us with no elk." Ennis doesn't say anything...maybe grunts or something.
At least those are two places where the subtitles get it right. Having a hearing loss, I have to watch this with the subtitles turned on, but there are several areas where the subtitles say people are saying things when their lips don't move, and there are other areas where posters here have said they've heard words ("L'il darlin" during the reunion scene e.g.) when the subtitles show nothing, and there are even a couple spots where I can clearly hear the dialogue but nothing shows up in the subtitles (e.g. Ennis's "Huh?" after he says he doesn't need Jack's money because he ain't in the poor house). Still, if you've got the dvd, it might be worth watching at least once with the subtitles turned on (go to the Languages option; it's not controlled by your tv closed captioning options). I thought all the characters did a lot of mumbling (at least that was the quality on my dvd) that made it very difficult to understand what was going on, especially if you hadn't read the short story. IMHO worth a shot anyway.
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Jack looks pretty into his sex scene with Lureen too, but I reconcile myself to this because Jack has been really, really lonely and was rebuffed in his attempt with a man, and Lureen is pretty manly (even with pendulous exposed breasts) on that scene anyway. The way she climbs on top of Jack makes her seem like the more "active" partner. It's rather like she's ravishing him, instead of the other way around (and I have to admit, Jake's expression and his tongue in that scene are just the cutest things ever--but I'll save that for eyebrows!).
I didn't see Jack as that into his sex with Lureen. To me, he looked like he was kissing a lemon, all puckered up and smacking Lureen's lips. Then, to me, he looks rather panicked when she begins taking off her top. He looks panicked and says, in almost disbelief, "you are in a hurry." I don't think he thought things would progress that far that quickly. Question: Do you think that Lureen and Alma were Jack and Ennis' first and only sexual experiences with women?
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Yes, the sled scene sticks out. Reminds me of something I read in the Rolling Stones interview, where Heath describes how this was the first scene he and Michelle shot together, and that he fell in love with her during it. Apparently she twisted her leg on one of the toboggan rides and was on crutches for the rest of the shoot. Heath says that after that, he felt he had to take care of her. So sweet... :D
Maybe what we are seeing is more Heath courting Michelle than Ennis with his fiancé?
I'm so glad somebody brought this scene up. This scene is the one in the entire movie that has bothered the crap out of me. Alma and Ennis seem so happy and in love in this scene; it's almost as if Ennis had forgotten about Jack and is living it up with Alma. I know maybe it was put in to show Ennis was trying to wrestle with Alma (hence, thinking about Jack) and yada, yada, yada . . . but it still bothered me. I guess I wanted Ennis to be miserable, pining away after Jack! I thought the drive in scene would have been plenty to give us a glimpse into the Del Mar marriage. I agree with the others who have said this is more Heath/Michelle than Alma/Ennis.
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Question: Do you think that Lureen and Alma were Jack and Ennis' first and only sexual experiences with women?
I always thought that Cassie and Ennis were shacking it up.. after all, 'girls don't fall in love with fun'... so, the question remains.. what did Cassie love about Ennis? *hint: see the FNIT and SNIT for a clue* ;)
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Jack looks pretty into his sex scene with Lureen too, but I reconcile myself to this because Jack has been really, really lonely and was rebuffed in his attempt with a man, and Lureen is pretty manly (even with pendulous exposed breasts) on that scene anyway. The way she climbs on top of Jack makes her seem like the more "active" partner. It's rather like she's ravishing him, instead of the other way around (and I have to admit, Jake's expression and his tongue in that scene are just the cutest things ever--but I'll save that for eyebrows!).
I didn't see Jack as that into his sex with Lureen. To me, he looked like he was kissing a lemon, all puckered up and smacking Lureen's lips. Then, to me, he looks rather panicked when she begins taking off her top. He looks panicked and says, in almost disbelief, "you are in a hurry." I don't think he thought things would progress that far that quickly. Question: Do you think that Lureen and Alma were Jack and Ennis' first and only sexual experiences with women?
Oh, yeah, there's shock when he sees her top fly off. He made his cute comment (fast or slow, I like the direction you're goin) but he wasn't quite ready for her reaction! Jack is such a big talker!
Jack's also a bit of a gigolo here, I suppose, because he's found out what a big shot her Dad was from the barkeeper. But I think there was genuine warmth of personal attraction between the two--they'd both impressed each other rodeoing and Lureen seems to be gazing adoringly at Jack as he proudly talks about himself at the dance.
Of course, there's the great shot of him during the dance looking sad for a moment, as the Patsy Cline-style singer wails, I know, sometimes you've felt so lonely, you felt so sad and blue. Great, you just feel sure he's thinking of Ennis.
I think Jack was demoralized by the Aguirre dismissal and his misfire with the rodeo clown and was throwing in his hand and trying to live a heterosexual life.
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Yes, the sled scene sticks out. Reminds me of something I read in the Rolling Stones interview, where Heath describes how this was the first scene he and Michelle shot together, and that he fell in love with her during it. Apparently she twisted her leg on one of the toboggan rides and was on crutches for the rest of the shoot. Heath says that after that, he felt he had to take care of her. So sweet... :D
Maybe what we are seeing is more Heath courting Michelle than Ennis with his fiancé?
I'm so glad somebody brought this scene up. This scene is the one in the entire movie that has bothered the crap out of me. Alma and Ennis seem so happy and in love in this scene; it's almost as if Ennis had forgotten about Jack and is living it up with Alma. I know maybe it was put in to show Ennis was trying to wrestle with Alma (hence, thinking about Jack) and yada, yada, yada . . . but it still bothered me. I guess I wanted Ennis to be miserable, pining away after Jack! I thought the drive in scene would have been plenty to give us a glimpse into the Del Mar marriage. I agree with the others who have said this is more Heath/Michelle than Alma/Ennis.
LOL, yeah, when he's patting her cap and face, it's just so Heath and Michelle. Heath just looks a little too into it--but I'm sure he couldn't help himself!
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Yes, the sled scene sticks out. Reminds me of something I read in the Rolling Stones interview, where Heath describes how this was the first scene he and Michelle shot together, and that he fell in love with her during it. Apparently she twisted her leg on one of the toboggan rides and was on crutches for the rest of the shoot. Heath says that after that, he felt he had to take care of her. So sweet... :D
Maybe what we are seeing is more Heath courting Michelle than Ennis with his fiancé?
I'm so glad somebody brought this scene up. This scene is the one in the entire movie that has bothered the crap out of me. Alma and Ennis seem so happy and in love in this scene; it's almost as if Ennis had forgotten about Jack and is living it up with Alma. I know maybe it was put in to show Ennis was trying to wrestle with Alma (hence, thinking about Jack) and yada, yada, yada . . . but it still bothered me. I guess I wanted Ennis to be miserable, pining away after Jack! I thought the drive in scene would have been plenty to give us a glimpse into the Del Mar marriage. I agree with the others who have said this is more Heath/Michelle than Alma/Ennis.
FYI, HERE ARE SOME RECENT POSTS FROM THE 'BREAK FROM THE LOVEFEST' THREAD THAT ADDRESS THE SAME TOPIC... IN SEQUENTIAL ORDER, TOP TO BOTTOM
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I still, after 4 months, can't get enough of this movie and these boys...BUT, there is a scene I dislike intensely: that sappy, out of character scene with the Alma and the bloody tobagan!
ICK!
I find it so loathsome, I ff through it everytime. Ennis is totally out of character here: he's playful, light-hearted ...not the brooding, lonesome character that he is on BBM - and the one Proulx describes. It seemed to me analyzing ad nauseum as I have that Jack was the first and only true friend he ever had and the one who drew him out of himself...
JMO
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I read somewhere in the myriad of reviews that the scene with Elma and the toboggan - where they tumble around a bit and Ennis puts her to rights - shows Ennis trying to have a similar type of roughhousing to what he and Jack did up on the mountain, but that Alma is too fragile and he has to take special care with her since she is so small and delicate... a reminder of what he considers establishment of intimacy, and a foreshadowing of how he would prefer his sex. So maybe it isn't such a useless scene after all... his roughhousing with Alma is curtailed by her delicacy, and he starts realizing early on that she is no Jack.
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That is EXACTLY what I think every time I see this scene--not "Ick", but what Louisev so perfectly describes. Alma is sweet, there, but so UNLIKE Jack in her reactions.
Personally, I don't think it's so horribly out of character for Ennis to be a little playful with Alma. They had to have some kind of closeness to be married. I'm not bothered, for example, by the gentle stroke he gives along her face when he kisses her at the wedding--and he isn't doing that for anyone else besides Jack, either. There's no comparison between Alma and Jack, but I think Alma had at least a little intimacy and trust with Ennis that wasn't typical for him to share with others. Plus, we know Ennis had a sense of humor, and could be playful. I hate to stereotype him as COMPLETELY repressed around everyone BUT Jack. I like to think that around the few people that he trusted, that side of him might to some extent be revealed. As a small example, he's verbally playful with his daughters, but you don't see him joking around with the Basque or Aguirre. So I think there are different degrees of that side of himself that Ennis might share with others, depending on their relationship.
Furthermore, at the time of the toboggan scene, I'd guess that Ennis had at least half-convinced himself that he was doing the right thing by being with Alma, so there were probably some moments when he felt a little more relaxed and free. Until Jack came back after 4 years, he'd probably talked himself into thinking he was somewhat happy. If he was constantly brooding and a completely isolated loner around Alma, do you think she would actually have married him? (True, Cassie fell in love with him in 'full brood', but that's another story. And he may have bestowed some small glimmers of kindness on Cassie in some of their off-screen time... enough for her to see some of the goodness inside of him. I think there are a lot of interactions between characters that we must assume, from the small parts that we're shown--just like we know there was a LOT more intimacy and tenderness given to Jack FROM Ennis, even though we only see glimpses in the movie.) I'm not saying that either Alma or Cassie began to share the real Ennis, like Jack... but I'd imagine they were sometimes able to draw out some small part--especially Alma, early on, when they were much younger and far less burdened, and before Jack had re-entered the scene to remind Ennis just what happiness REALLY is!
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After 2 viewings there are 2 scenes I missed some words. Please inform me!
Thanks Speedhumps
\
Scene 1: In a bar, Jack offers to buy a man a drink. There is one pleasant interchange then the man says something, closing with, I think: Save your money for ??????????. Then the man joins other men across the room.
Scene 2: Killing the elk(tranquilizing Im sure). Jack shoves Ennis after the shot. What does he say?
Then Ennis shoves him back, stands up and says something, pushing him toward the elk. What does he say?
Thanks
The guy says " If I was to let every rodeo hand I pulled a bull off of buy me liquor, I'd been an alcoholic long ago"...then, " puling bulls off you buckaroos is just my job. SAve your money for your next entry fee."
When they kill the elk...Jack says " let's get a move on...don't want the Game and Fish to catch us with no elk." Ennis doesn't say anything...maybe grunts or something.
First, THANK YOU for the "game and fish to catch us". I've watched that scene a zillion times and could NOT figure out what Jack was saying. I think Ennis does say something in reply, though. I'll watch it again (not at home right now) and post it later. Did anyone notice that Ennis gives Jack's leg a slap right at the end, in series with 'pushing him towards the elk'? Another sign of the growing camaraderie between them.
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Fairdathm, Thanks for the quotes about the sled scene from the 'Break from the Lovefest' thread. It's impossible to keep up with all threads so it's good that others keep track. :)
It seems to me that the point that Ennis is 'roughhousing' and discovers that Alma is more fragile than Jack must be the only reason this scene wasn't cut. But I have to say, it still doesn't work for me. Ennis just seems too happy here. And while so many scenes become more complex the more you look at them and discuss them, this one stays one dimensional.
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Question: Do you think that Lureen and Alma were Jack and Ennis' first and only sexual experiences with women?
I always thought that Cassie and Ennis were shacking it up.. after all, 'girls don't fall in love with fun'... so, the question remains.. what did Cassie love about Ennis? *hint: see the FNIT and SNIT for a clue* ;)
Oh, that's right. I forgot about Ennis giving the blocks to Cassie. Must have tried to mentally block it from my mind. Cassie seemed like she was a girl that knew what she wanted and went for it. Wonder what Ennis did with her? ;)
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. This scene is the one in the entire movie that has bothered the crap out of me. Alma and Ennis seem so happy and in love in this scene; it's almost as if Ennis had forgotten about Jack and is living it up with Alma. I know maybe it was put in to show Ennis was trying to wrestle with Alma (hence, thinking about Jack) and yada, yada, yada . . . but it still bothered me. I guess I wanted Ennis to be miserable, pining away after Jack!
I suppose he seemed happier then because it took him 'about a year' to realise how he felt about Jack. I suppose it hadn't quite hit him then. But I agree with you - I'm not fond of this scene.
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. This scene is the one in the entire movie that has bothered the crap out of me. Alma and Ennis seem so happy and in love in this scene; it's almost as if Ennis had forgotten about Jack and is living it up with Alma. I know maybe it was put in to show Ennis was trying to wrestle with Alma (hence, thinking about Jack) and yada, yada, yada . . . but it still bothered me. I guess I wanted Ennis to be miserable, pining away after Jack!
I suppose he seemed happier then because it took him 'about a year' to realise how he felt about Jack. I suppose it hadn't quite hit him then. But I agree with you - I'm not fond of this scene.
I just feel that the snow sledding scene with Ennis and Alma and the sex in the car scene in Texas with Jack and Lureen were added because of the sexual orientation of the screenplay writers and also in hopes that if it was ever made into a movie, heterosexuals/straights would pay to see it.
Neither of those situations even take place in the original story. There is no proof that Jack ever made out with Lureen in a parked car before he married her.
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I think those scenes where there to show that both guys were starting different lives.
I try not to mix the movie and the book scenes.
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OK, somebody help me out here.
I am not American (although English is one of my fluent languages), and I've never come across the phrase "putting the blocks to.." prior to BBM.
Can someone please explain this idiomatic expression? From the discussion so far, I have an idea, but I'd really appreciate more clarity on this.
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OK, somebody help me out here.
I am not American (although English is one of my fluent languages), and I've never come across the phrase "putting the blocks to.." prior to BBM.
Can someone please explain this idiomatic expression? From the discussion so far, I have an idea, but I'd really appreciate more clarity on this.
Hi - I'm from good old New York City and I think this line means that Ennis is seeing this woman. This can mean he's just taking her out occasionally on dates OR that they are in a casual sexual relationship.
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The way I have always understood that phrase is that Ennis is saying he is having a sexual relationship with Cassie. I've also heard it phrased "putting the bolts to."
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Regarding the sledding with Alma scene I believe it's allowable to hold two inconsistent notions about it:
1. That Ennis IS happy at the beginning of his marraige to Alma and
2. That he is a closeted gay man who will never be out of love with Jack.
I think Ennis happiness is based on the "newness" of the relationship and more significantly on hope. Hope that he will fall in love with Alma. Hope that his marraige will "cure" him of Jack. Hope that his domesticity is camoflouge.
He is happy and excited not because of Alma but of what he hopes the marraige will do for him in relation to Jack.
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OK, somebody help me out here.
I am not American (although English is one of my fluent languages), and I've never come across the phrase "putting the blocks to.." prior to BBM.
Can someone please explain this idiomatic expression? From the discussion so far, I have an idea, but I'd really appreciate more clarity on this.
"Putting the blocks to" is an auto/truck mechanic's expression related to putting vehicles up on blocks because the chassis of them is going to be looked at from underneath.
When one buys a used vehicle up in the Northern USA, it is good to look underneath to see the condition of the chassis, aka the main frame, to see if there is any corrosion from salt on the roads in the winter time or rust under there.
(In my opinion from reading the short story) In Ennis's situation with the part-time Wolf Ears Bar girl was that by the time that Ennis was talking about her to Jack, he had already decided against that (that is if you want to take that literally).
I really think that the gal did not exist in the first place. Ennis just made her up to continue with his "I'm not no queer," . . . I'm a real man denial of his sexual orientation.
Jack's "Me neither" Brokeback Mountain response was continued here with the rancher's wife in Texas who never existed either.
I have known guys who make up claims that they have girlfriends when they are in denial of their sexual orientation.
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OK, somebody help me out here.
I am not American (although English is one of my fluent languages), and I've never come across the phrase "putting the blocks to.." prior to BBM.
Can someone please explain this idiomatic expression? From the discussion so far, I have an idea, but I'd really appreciate more clarity on this.
"Putting the blocks to" is an auto/truck mechanic's expression related to putting vehicles up on blocks because the chassis of them is going to be looked at from underneath.
When one buys a used vehicle up in the Northern USA, it is good to look underneath to see the condition of the chassis, aka the main frame, to see if there is any corrosion from salt on the roads in the winter time or rust under there.
(In my opinion from reading the short story) In Ennis's situation with the part-time Wolf Ears Bar girl was that by the time that Ennis was talking about her to Jack, he had already decided against that (that is if you want to take that literally).
I really think that the gal did not exist in the first place. Ennis just made her up to continue with his "I'm not no queer," . . . I'm a real man denial of his sexual orientation.
Jack's "Me neither" Brokeback Mountain response was continued here with the rancher's wife in Texas who never existed either.
I have known guys who make up claims that they have girlfriends when they are in denial of their sexual orientation.
I know "putting the blocks.." to mean keeping things at a distance. as in Blocking something from getting close to you-like in American football. In Am. football the defensive backs block for the runner or the quartererback making sure no one gets close to him. Ennis is saying that Cassie was trying to move their relationship forward to something significant perhaps permanent-Ennis statements to Jack (about the blocks) is that he, Ennis is doing whatever is necessary to keep the relationship from moving forward.
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Thanks to everyone for the feedback.
Actually, my own interpretation of the phrase, when I first heard it, was similar to that of deevah2, that Ennis was holding back on the relationship with Cassie. However, from all the discussion that has gone on in the last few weeks seem to imply the opposite.
The replies to my posting seem to say that it could mean either way, so I guess Annie has sprung yet another moment of ambiguity on us.
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After 2 viewings there are 2 scenes I missed some words. Please inform me!
Thanks Speedhumps
\
Scene 1: In a bar, Jack offers to buy a man a drink. There is one pleasant interchange then the man says something, closing with, I think: Save your money for ??????????. Then the man joins other men across the room.
Scene 2: Killing the elk(tranquilizing Im sure). Jack shoves Ennis after the shot. What does he say?
Then Ennis shoves him back, stands up and says something, pushing him toward the elk. What does he say?
Thanks
The guy says " If I was to let every rodeo hand I pulled a bull off of buy me liquor, I'd been an alcoholic long ago"...then, " puling bulls off you buckaroos is just my job. SAve your money for your next entry fee."
When they kill the elk...Jack says " let's get a move on...don't want the Game and Fish to catch us with no elk." Ennis doesn't say anything...maybe grunts or something.
First, THANK YOU for the "game and fish to catch us". I've watched that scene a zillion times and could NOT figure out what Jack was saying. I think Ennis does say something in reply, though. I'll watch it again (not at home right now) and post it later. Did anyone notice that Ennis gives Jack's leg a slap right at the end, in series with 'pushing him towards the elk'? Another sign of the growing camaraderie between them.
Don't have the exact quote but in the subtitles when Ennis pushes Jack he says something about being tired of jack missing his shots/target.
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Not experienced at posting.
Some of the editing in the film is confusing. Was particularly wondering, today, exactly how many "fishing trips" are depicted in the film.
The Proulx story has a paragraph which simply lists a long string of places (mountains, etc) where they went to camp and fish between 1967 and 1983.
In the film, we see the 1967 reunion trip. And, lastly, the emotional final trip in (1983?), I wasn't sure how many other trips are meant to be depicted. One, especially -- riding horses over moss-covered ground - is amazing brief.
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Thanks to everyone for the feedback.
Actually, my own interpretation of the phrase, when I first heard it, was similar to that of deevah2, that Ennis was holding back on the relationship with Cassie. However, from all the discussion that has gone on in the last few weeks seem to imply the opposite.
The replies to my posting seem to say that it could mean either way, so I guess Annie has sprung yet another moment of ambiguity on us.
I'd never questioned the phrase until I saw this discussion, and always assumed that Ennis was referring to a sexual relationship with Cassie, regardless of whether he was telling the truth or not. That opinion comes, I think, from Jack's subsequent statement (one-up-man-ship) that he was having an affair with a fellow rancher's wife, when it seemed pretty obvious that he was having an affair with the rancher, not his wife. In the short story, the next few lines go on to say something about the sparks in the fire flickering like their lies.
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I just feel that the snow sledding scene with Ennis and Alma and the sex in the car scene in Texas with Jack and Lureen were added because of the sexual orientation of the screenplay writers and also in hopes that if it was ever made into a movie, heterosexuals/straights would pay to see it.
Neither of those situations even take place in the original story. There is no proof that Jack ever made out with Lureen in a parked car before he married her.
They both seem to be there to show the two men making an effort to lead separate lives and to convince themselves that their relationship had been a summer fling and part of adolescence. Ennis seeming to be happy is probably a reflection of their marriage being new; and it's not very realistic that the marriage didn't have at least a few festive moments in its early stages.
And if there's any straight person here who paid to see the film because of those two scenes, I'd like to know about it. I can't imagine anyone doing that and doubt the Ossana or McMurtry did. The scenes work in terms of communicating what's going on in their lives at that stage but there just isn't enough to them for a 'must see that' reaction.
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An intelligent friend who's also an excellent amateur critic dismissed those scenes as "hetero pandering." He's wrong. The only time I'll accuse Lee and the screenwriters of pandering is the inclusion of the Twist Thanksgiving, which never failed to incite applause from the audience but just made me groan.
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An intelligent friend who's also an excellent amateur critic dismissed those scenes as "hetero pandering." He's wrong. The only time I'll accuse Lee and the screenwriters of pandering is the inclusion of the Twist Thanksgiving, which never failed to incite applause from the audience but just made me groan.
I'm so curious as to why you see this scene as pandering? Can you elaborate?
In my view, this scene is meant to illustrate Jack's growing frustrations with the elements that control his life...he is seen as playing along but desperately out of sync with his true self. At the last moment, before he carves the turkey, he rubs his hand across his forehead in a gesture of frustration...is he thinking " the only place I'm happy is with Ennis" or " Oh, God, I gotta get outa here."?
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I never bought L.D. Newsome as a character; he isn't developed, he's just a cartoon wearing a bolo tie. I understand the scene's intention, but it's written and played so broadly ("real boys should watch FOOTBALL!") that it unintentionally supports an uneducated heterosexual point of view, i.e. "Oh, see, fags can be REAL MEN too."
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OK, somebody help me out here.
I am not American (although English is one of my fluent languages), and I've never come across the phrase "putting the blocks to.." prior to BBM.
Can someone please explain this idiomatic expression? From the discussion so far, I have an idea, but I'd really appreciate more clarity on this.
Luke, I don't know this term's derivation but here in the Southern United States to "put the blocks" to someone is to f*ck them. It is to have intercourse with them in whatever way you choose. There is no ambiguity. It is as clear as day to those who use the term, and those who use it are usually older heterosexual men.
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I never bought L.D. Newsome as a character; he isn't developed, he's just a cartoon wearing a bolo tie. I understand the scene's intention, but it's written and played so broadly ("real boys should watch FOOTBALL!") that it unintentionally supports an uneducated heterosexual point of view, i.e. "Oh, see, fags can be REAL MEN too."
I hear what you're saying...but, little darlin, I was born and raised in the South - moved to NYC 20 years ago! - and the men I grew around actually said things like " real men watch football!"....it's why I groan everytime I have to go home for the holidays! LOL
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This posting is a repeat of a pm I sent to another user on the forum here that asked me about accents used in the movie. This is my take on it. The user then asked that I post this to the open forum as others may enjoy it as much as they did.
Ok, even in the Brokeback Mountain book, Jack's accent does pick up a Texas twang to it. And in the movie he does as well. It's easy to pick up on.
Jack's son sounds Texan only as far as "Why, mama?" After that its something else. It sounds like he's saying something about FedEx (Federal Express), a shipping company. I can't understand him. It's not a New York accent, it's just something generic.
Lureen has the Texas accent perfectly, my wife kinda sounds like that. A kinda soft twang to it.
Also as a side note to this scene:
Football is THE game of the state of Texas. Everyone watches and attends.
If you don't watch football, you're not a man!(or so you would think by the way people act about it!) So that scene where they are eating Thanksgiving Dinner could very well have happened. In Texas, you have your dinner either before the game or afterwards. Why Lureen was serving dinner during the game is beyond me.
As Texans are proud of their state, we are proud of our accents. My own accent is more like Ennis' than Jacks. (Low pitched voice, words drawn out longer) We also poke fun at ourselves too. People in East Texas have the worst accents. It's totally different than those out here in West Texas. Texas is so big, we have regional accents here. Listen to people from the piney woods of east Texas talk, then compare that with the way people in Abilene, Odessa and Corpus talk. See.
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Not experienced at posting.
Some of the editing in the film is confusing. Was particularly wondering, today, exactly how many "fishing trips" are depicted in the film.
The Proulx story has a paragraph which simply lists a long string of places (mountains, etc) where they went to camp and fish between 1967 and 1983.
In the film, we see the 1967 reunion trip. And, lastly, the emotional final trip in (1983?), I wasn't sure how many other trips are meant to be depicted. One, especially -- riding horses over moss-covered ground - is amazing brief.
All the reunions are very confusing to date! In the screenplay, when Alma reads the postcard that on screen is dated 1972, the screenplay has that as 1969, and you assume that what you see on screen - Ennis packing and Jack looking for his parka - are from that same get together, yet in the screenplay it says when Lureen is on the adding machine and Jack asks where his parka is, the calendar says 1973, so that is the one we see on screen when Jack is putting veg in he pan when Ennis arrived ... but it's a seperate reunion to the Alma reading the postcard one, but in the film you get the impression it's the same one!
In other words, Alma reading the postcard in the screenplay is 1969 and Jack and Ennis preparing to meet up is from 1973. Yet they look like the same occasion in the film! And what we see on screen, Ennis arriving with the horses, seems to be when they are riding over the moss, cos it follows on from when they greet each other.
Very confusing! But aside from that on screen we only see two more. The one where Jack suggests Ennis move to Texas and then the last time they meet. Both brief and unhappy - unhappy to watch anyway.
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I never bought L.D. Newsome as a character; he isn't developed, he's just a cartoon wearing a bolo tie. I understand the scene's intention, but it's written and played so broadly ("real boys should watch FOOTBALL!") that it unintentionally supports an uneducated heterosexual point of view, i.e. "Oh, see, fags can be REAL MEN too."
I hear what you're saying...but, little darlin, I was born and raised in the South - moved to NYC 20 years ago! - and the men I grew around actually said things like " real men watch football!"....it's why I groan everytime I have to go home for the holidays! LOL
Unfortunately, I agree. I am from a rural area, one in which men think (and women, too) that unless you have a beer in one hand and a the remote in the other (tv on football) you are not a real man. Now, not all men in my region think like this, but a fair number of them do. LD is not developed, I think, for a reason. He is this one-dimensional, egotistical, homophobic stereotype that Ennis and Jack are up against in the real world.
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An intelligent friend who's also an excellent amateur critic dismissed those scenes as "hetero pandering." He's wrong. The only time I'll accuse Lee and the screenwriters of pandering is the inclusion of the Twist Thanksgiving, which never failed to incite applause from the audience but just made me groan.
I'm so curious as to why you see this scene as pandering? Can you elaborate?
In my view, this scene is meant to illustrate Jack's growing frustrations with the elements that control his life...he is seen as playing along but desperately out of sync with his true self. At the last moment, before he carves the turkey, he rubs his hand across his forehead in a gesture of frustration...is he thinking " the only place I'm happy is with Ennis" or " Oh, God, I gotta get outa here."?
I love Jack in this scene, though LD is very much a caricature (and I'm from the South too and know about football too!).
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I just feel that the snow sledding scene with Ennis and Alma and the sex in the car scene in Texas with Jack and Lureen were added because of the sexual orientation of the screenplay writers and also in hopes that if it was ever made into a movie, heterosexuals/straights would pay to see it.
Neither of those situations even take place in the original story. There is no proof that Jack ever made out with Lureen in a parked car before he married her.
They both seem to be there to show the two men making an effort to lead separate lives and to convince themselves that their relationship had been a summer fling and part of adolescence. Ennis seeming to be happy is probably a reflection of their marriage being new; and it's not very realistic that the marriage didn't have at least a few festive moments in its early stages.
And if there's any straight person here who paid to see the film because of those two scenes, I'd like to know about it. I can't imagine anyone doing that and doubt the Ossana or McMurtry did. The scenes work in terms of communicating what's going on in their lives at that stage but there just isn't enough to them for a 'must see that' reaction.
I'm gay as the ace of spades, but I liked the Lureen-Jack sex scene and thought it was in character, cause Lureen is such a top! Jake--I mean, Jack--did seem awfully eager to go for Lureen's tatas, though, didn't he? ;)
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Oh, I don't doubt that in Texas you can give away L.B. Newsomes as a two-for-one deal; but in art context is all, and in BBM Newsome's two appearances serve rather didactic purposes (another scene which bothers me less, but for the same reason, is the one in which Ennis finds a mauled sheep after the FNIT. It's ninth-grade symbolism)
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I'm gay as the ace of spades, but I liked the Lureen-Jack sex scene and thought it was in character, cause Lureen is such a top! Jake--I mean, Jack--did seem awfully eager to go for Lureen's tatas, though, didn't he? ;)
>:( I hated that scene!...Jake says it was his favorite scene, but it didn't look as real to me as SNIT...but I'm jealous for Ennis!
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Oh, I don't doubt that in Texas you can give away L.B. Newsomes as a two-for-one deal; but in art context is all, and in BBM Newsome's two appearances serve rather didactic purposes (another scene which bothers me less, but for the same reason, is the one in which Ennis finds a mauled sheep after the FNIT. It's ninth-grade symbolism)
You don't think any ninth graders saw this film? ;)
Not the most subtle moment ever, but entirely within the context of the film at that moment--Ennis did stay away from the sheep, so the result is not to be unexpected, and it plays in nicely with his guilty frame of mind at that point. Granted, the symbolism of naked Jack by the river is better. ;)
The scene with LD at Thanksgiving obviously is intended as a crowdpleaser, but I have to admit I like seeing Jake stand up to the old bastard. I agree too, it shows the increasing strain this life is for him.
LD is Exhibit One for people who say this film is anti straight male though.
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I'm gay as the ace of spades, but I liked the Lureen-Jack sex scene and thought it was in character, cause Lureen is such a top! Jake--I mean, Jack--did seem awfully eager to go for Lureen's tatas, though, didn't he? ;)
>:( I hated that scene!...Jake says it was his favorite scene, but it didn't look as real to me as SNIT...but I'm jealous for Ennis!
Hmmm, I wonder why Jake liked the scene so much? Got to cop a feel on the Disney Princess (boy with that bra coming off, Anne sure threw her chances away at Princess Diaries 3 :D)? I didn't like the scene myself.I thought the kissing between Jack and Lureen was horrid, both looked like they were puckering on a lemon, but they probably meant for it to bet that way. But it was funny when Jack looked panicked when Lureen removed her shirt. Like, what the hell am I supposed to do with those? But he figures it out right quick.
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Hmmm, I wonder why Jake liked the scene so much? Got to cop a feel on the Disney Princess (boy with that bra coming off, Anne sure threw her chances away at Princess Diaries 3 :D)? I didn't like the scene myself.I thought the kissing between Jack and Lureen was horrid, both looked like they were puckering on a lemon, but they probably meant for it to bet that way. But it was funny when Jack looked panicked when Lureen removed her shirt. Like, what the hell am I supposed to do with those? But he figures it out right quick.
Either really good acting ...or he thought, like me, that most people look better with their clothes on! :D
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Yeah, I like Jack's bravado--slow or fast, I just like the direction you're going--then he gets a little scared when the top comes off!
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Hmmm, I wonder why Jake liked the scene so much? Got to cop a feel on the Disney Princess (boy with that bra coming off, Anne sure threw her chances away at Princess Diaries 3 :D)? I didn't like the scene myself.I thought the kissing between Jack and Lureen was horrid, both looked like they were puckering on a lemon, but they probably meant for it to bet that way. But it was funny when Jack looked panicked when Lureen removed her shirt. Like, what the hell am I supposed to do with those? But he figures it out right quick.
I think he was joking if he said it was his favourite scene cos he has said it was 'like a breath of fresh air' to film that scene with Anne after all the heavy stuff and love scenes with Heath! It's the sort of thing he'd be expected to say, really. I can't imagine him ever saying the tent scenes were his favourite scenes to film! But he made a joke of preparing for the kissing scenes with Heath, when he was on Oprah, when Heath said it's never easy to prepare for a love scene either with a man or a woman "You don't sit at home kissing your hand or rolling about with a pillow". Jake then pretended HE had prepared by kissing on his hand! It was very funny but it was intended to be a joke. In the same way he said he couldn't recall that they filmed the reunion kiss more than once.
He just doesn't want to talk about the intimate scenes with Heath in that way, that's obvious, and why should he have to? But making out the sex scene (what we saw anyway) with Anne was his favourite scene ... is rather predicatable, and probably not true.
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Hmmm, I wonder why Jake liked the scene so much? Got to cop a feel on the Disney Princess (boy with that bra coming off, Anne sure threw her chances away at Princess Diaries 3 :D)? I didn't like the scene myself.I thought the kissing between Jack and Lureen was horrid, both looked like they were puckering on a lemon, but they probably meant for it to bet that way. But it was funny when Jack looked panicked when Lureen removed her shirt. Like, what the hell am I supposed to do with those? But he figures it out right quick.
You know, speaking of Lureen's bra. It is something that has been nagging me. This was suppose to be somewhere between 1965/66 and as far as I know back then you had a rather narrow choice in terms of bra colors and designs. You had white or beige and if you were very naughty you got yourself a black one. No Victoria Secrets et al and she is in some small town in Texas. Where would she get this black bra with the red flowers outside of perhaps New York or something? It's not like Fredrick's of Hollywood is likely to have a store in Childress. A few years later, say 1969, you might have some color selection. Didn't Mrs. Robinson have a leopard print bra? Still Lureen is in her early 20s and living in a small town so it seems somehow off.
I wasn't wearing bras in 1965 so perhaps someone might have some more info.
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In the sled scene they almost looked like a different couple (eg Heath and Michelle!)
I found that scene jarring because Ennis seems so out of character here. When did Ennis get to be this playful, light-hearted guy? I thought he was the brooding, lonely guy that only Jack managed to draw out.
I know the filmmakers thought this out..but it's a bathroom break scene for me!
Yep, that was always the part where I went to the bathroom too!
I think it's meant to show that he can be affectionate, even if he has trouble doing so. Same goes for the drive-in scene.
The way I looked at this scene is that we're seeing an Ennis who can easily be light hearted with Alma because she's more like a friend to him; it's not a romantic relationship, as it is with Jack. So he's more relaxed because there's nothing at stake. With Jack, everything's at stake for Ennis.
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Hmmm, I wonder why Jake liked the scene so much? Got to cop a feel on the Disney Princess (boy with that bra coming off, Anne sure threw her chances away at Princess Diaries 3 :D)? I didn't like the scene myself.I thought the kissing between Jack and Lureen was horrid, both looked like they were puckering on a lemon, but they probably meant for it to bet that way. But it was funny when Jack looked panicked when Lureen removed her shirt. Like, what the hell am I supposed to do with those? But he figures it out right quick.
You know, speaking of Lureen's bra. It is something that has been nagging me. This was suppose to be somewhere between 1965/66 and as far as I know back then you had a rather narrow choice in terms of bra colors and designs. You had white or beige and if you were very naughty you got yourself a black one. No Victoria Secrets et al and she is in some small town in Texas. Where would she get this black bra with the red flowers outside of perhaps New York or something? It's not like Fredrick's of Hollywood is likely to have a store in Childress. A few years later, say 1969, you might have some color selection. Didn't Mrs. Robinson have a leopard print bra? Still Lureen is in her early 20s and living in a small town so it seems somehow off.
I wasn't wearing bras in 1965 so perhaps someone might have some more info.
That's a very good point. Lureen's bra mystery -- since they're rich, maybe Lureen made it to a bigger town (maybe Dallas) and got a bra that was in the forefront of fashion (doubtful, though, that Dallas would be in the forefront at the time) ;) I'll have to defer to others who may have greater knowledge. I was just a young sprite in 1965, and bras were just a few years away. ;), though I think I went without when the time came in the great, braless 60s. Mrs. Robinson did have a leopard print bra, you're right. Just a few more years, and she could have been wearing zebra stripes if she wanted.
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Hmmm, I wonder why Jake liked the scene so much? Got to cop a feel on the Disney Princess (boy with that bra coming off, Anne sure threw her chances away at Princess Diaries 3 :D)? I didn't like the scene myself.I thought the kissing between Jack and Lureen was horrid, both looked like they were puckering on a lemon, but they probably meant for it to bet that way. But it was funny when Jack looked panicked when Lureen removed her shirt. Like, what the hell am I supposed to do with those? But he figures it out right quick.
You know, speaking of Lureen's bra. It is something that has been nagging me. This was suppose to be somewhere between 1965/66 and as far as I know back then you had a rather narrow choice in terms of bra colors and designs. You had white or beige and if you were very naughty you got yourself a black one. No Victoria Secrets et al and she is in some small town in Texas. Where would she get this black bra with the red flowers outside of perhaps New York or something? It's not like Fredrick's of Hollywood is likely to have a store in Childress. A few years later, say 1969, you might have some color selection. Didn't Mrs. Robinson have a leopard print bra? Still Lureen is in her early 20s and living in a small town so it seems somehow off.
I wasn't wearing bras in 1965 so perhaps someone might have some more info.
I always thought that bra looked a little flashy to me, too. I thought the bras back in those days were big white numbers (not sure, didn't wear my first bra until the early 80's). But, then again, it matched the outfit!! The flashy bra and ensemble do match Lureen's personality. Lureen was obviously no virgin either, so maybe she was dressed for the prowl (please don't accuse me of making Lureen out to be a slut, that's not what I'm saying). Poor Alma was probably lucky to have one big white granny bra. *Stacp suddenly whacks herself in head* Did I say granny bra? There's a phrase I never thought I'd type on a BBM forum. We certainly cover it all here! ;D
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Question: Do you think that Lureen and Alma were Jack and Ennis' first and only sexual experiences with women?
I always thought that Cassie and Ennis were shacking it up.. after all, 'girls don't fall in love with fun'... so, the question remains.. what did Cassie love about Ennis? *hint: see the FNIT and SNIT for a clue* ;)
I'm not sure he and Cassie had sex. I tend to think they didn't. When they dance, it's so clear Ennis' mind is elsewhere and he barely touches her. I think Jack only had sex with Lureen because he's not interested in women, and is only with Lureen as a "cover" for his relationship with Ennis. But back to Cassie: who did Cassie in love with anyway? She can't really know Ennis because he's a closeted gay man. I feel she falls in love with the idea of love, her idea of the man she wants. And, maybe she does fall for the tender, deep-feeling man that Ennis is. But, it's Jack's Ennis she sees, and he's not available to her or any woman.
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Question: Do you think that Lureen and Alma were Jack and Ennis' first and only sexual experiences with women?
I always thought that Cassie and Ennis were shacking it up.. after all, 'girls don't fall in love with fun'... so, the question remains.. what did Cassie love about Ennis? *hint: see the FNIT and SNIT for a clue* ;)
I'm not sure he and Cassie had sex. I tend to think they didn't. When they dance, it's so clear Ennis' mind is elsewhere and he barely touches her. I think Jack only had sex with Lureen because he's not interested in women, and is only with Lureen as a "cover" for his relationship with Ennis. But back to Cassie: who did Cassie in love with anyway? She can't really know Ennis because he's a closeted gay man. I feel she falls in love with the idea of love, her idea of the man she wants. And, maybe she does fall for the tender, deep-feeling man that Ennis is. But, it's Jack's Ennis she sees, and he's not available to her or any woman.
Sob
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I've been trying to avoid saying this, but one thing that made me giggle in the cinema, but up till now I've thought was too immature to mention was :
At the end of the scene in the car with Jack and Lureen's breasts, we change to a view of the supermarket and the signs 'Fresh Produce' and 'Choice Meats' and Ennis driving up. It occured to me that it was a hint that Jack preferred choice meat to the other produce on offer.
There, I said it.
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I'm not sure he and Cassie had sex. I tend to think they didn't.
I think they did...because that's what "puttin the blocks to" means. Unless you're suggesting that Ennis was just telling Jack that to maintain the "I'm not queer" image...which I'd never thought of before!
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Question: Do you think that Lureen and Alma were Jack and Ennis' first and only sexual experiences with women?
I always thought that Cassie and Ennis were shacking it up.. after all, 'girls don't fall in love with fun'... so, the question remains.. what did Cassie love about Ennis? *hint: see the FNIT and SNIT for a clue* ;)
I'm not sure he and Cassie had sex. I tend to think they didn't. When they dance, it's so clear Ennis' mind is elsewhere and he barely touches her. I think Jack only had sex with Lureen because he's not interested in women, and is only with Lureen as a "cover" for his relationship with Ennis. But back to Cassie: who did Cassie in love with anyway? She can't really know Ennis because he's a closeted gay man. I feel she falls in love with the idea of love, her idea of the man she wants. And, maybe she does fall for the tender, deep-feeling man that Ennis is. But, it's Jack's Ennis she sees, and he's not available to her or any woman.
I agree with you. It definitely wasn't the sex. Even Ennis admits that he wasn't much 'fun'. [I think 'fun' is partly a metaphor for sex in this scene, as well as meaning ... fun, and the shallower aspects of a relationship perhaps]. I think this is when Ennis realises what he's reduced his relationship with Jack to.
I think Cassie saw the good in Ennis. She's very attractive and probably got fed up with being hit on by guys all the time - it's nice to take control once in a while. And those taciturn, steadfast types can be very appealing.
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I'm not sure he and Cassie had sex. I tend to think they didn't.
I think they did...because that's what "puttin the blocks to" means. Unless you're suggesting that Ennis was just telling Jack that to maintain the "I'm not queer" image...which I'd never thought of before!
That's what I think Ennis is doing when he says "puttin the blocks to" They're both weakly trying to keep up that heterosexual image, but it's clear in that scene that Ennis isn't really interested in the waitress. The focus of that scene is what's unspoken between Ennis and Jack -- that they are obviously the love of each other's lives.
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You know, speaking of Lureen's bra. It is something that has been nagging me. This was suppose to be somewhere between 1965/66 and as far as I know back then you had a rather narrow choice in terms of bra colors and designs. You had white or beige and if you were very naughty you got yourself a black one. No Victoria Secrets et al and she is in some small town in Texas. Where would she get this black bra with the red flowers outside of perhaps New York or something? It's not like Fredrick's of Hollywood is likely to have a store in Childress. A few years later, say 1969, you might have some color selection. Didn't Mrs. Robinson have a leopard print bra? Still Lureen is in her early 20s and living in a small town so it seems somehow off.
I wasn't wearing bras in 1965 so perhaps someone might have some more info.
I can remember an aunt of mine looking thru Fredrick's of Hollywood mail-order catalogues in the late 50's. We lived on a farm , rural mid-west.
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I'm not sure he and Cassie had sex. I tend to think they didn't.
I think they did...because that's what "puttin the blocks to" means. Unless you're suggesting that Ennis was just telling Jack that to maintain the "I'm not queer" image...which I'd never thought of before!
Oh, I bet Ennis gave the heterosexual sex thing one last try and had sex with Cassie. Especially after that Thanksgiving scene where Alma outed him, I bet he tried to convince himself that he really does like sex with women, so he can't be queer. But, I'm guessing it wasn't all that. Cassie seemed like a little fire cracker to me, too; probably took charge with Ennis. Ennis probably just went along for the ride.
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There, I said it.
Desecra, that is awesome! There are so many things I thought and for a long time didn't say because I thought I was the only one thinking them.. like, I used to think that I was the only straight girl on earth that thought that Jack and Ennis making out was the hottest thing ever... I soon came to find out that I was very wrong! I'll bet you that other people noticed the "meat and produce thing"! Anyway, I am not sure what I am trying to say here.. I guess I just thought your post was awesome! :)
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I've been trying to avoid saying this, but one thing that made me giggle in the cinema, but up till now I've thought was too immature to mention was :
At the end of the scene in the car with Jack and Lureen's breasts, we change to a view of the supermarket and the signs 'Fresh Produce' and 'Choice Meats' and Ennis driving up. It occured to me that it was a hint that Jack preferred choice meat to the other produce on offer.
There, I said it.
Oh my gad! Given the premise that there are no accidents in Ang Lee's film... City Girl runs to DVD player!
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That's pretty funny. As we've all noted, nothing seems to have been left to chance, so it makes a certain amount of sense. There always seems to be some overlap or segue between scenes, whether visual or through music, dialogue, what not. Like Alma putting down the flyer that advertises Honey, and then hearing Jack calling to Lureen, "Honey, have you seen my blue parka?" Etc.
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That's pretty funny. As we've all noted, nothing seems to have been left to chance, so it makes a certain amount of sense. There always seems to be some overlap or segue between scenes, whether visual or through music, dialogue, what not. Like Alma putting down the flyer that advertises Honey, and then hearing Jack calling to Lureen, "Honey, have you seen my blue parka?" Etc.
Okay, here's another one (and like Desecra, I'll just have to spit it out). The bedroom scene where Ennis flips Alma over, we cut to the next scene of Jack riding the bull.
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Oh yeah, I noticed that for sure!
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That's pretty funny. As we've all noted, nothing seems to have been left to chance, so it makes a certain amount of sense. There always seems to be some overlap or segue between scenes, whether visual or through music, dialogue, what not. Like Alma putting down the flyer that advertises Honey, and then hearing Jack calling to Lureen, "Honey, have you seen my blue parka?" Etc.
Okay, here's another one (and like Desecra, I'll just have to spit it out). The bedroom scene where Ennis flips Alma over, we cut to the next scene of Jack riding the bull.
Another overlapping scene is when Ennis is getting sick in the alley.
He is on his knees like in prayer, as the audio from the next scene (the wedding) comes in with "...and forgive us our tresspasses......etc
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Here's another one: Lureen and Jack's sex scene in the truck, and just as things get heating up (bra comes off), the next scene shows a kid lighting a firecracker.
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I think I've picked the right forum for this question, and it may have already been answered as I've only grazed over the last 57 pages, so here goes:
When Jack is looking at the rodeo clown very intently, and the clown sees this, and very abrubtly makes an excuse and goes back to the pool table, just as he gets there he motions back in Jack's direction and then the guys seem to come closer to listen to what the clown has to say. Just before the scene cuts back to Jack, one or two of the guys looks in Jack's direction. Is Ang Lee planting the seeds for us to justify a possible reason for the tire iron incident? After all, I believe the bar scene is in Childress. You know, rumours get started and then passed around; it's a small town. That's one question.
Number two is when the bartender asks Jack if he ever tried calf ropin' Is he suggesting that he knew what just went on here?
I've seen the DVD 13 times, and I'd like some help here. Anyone have any ideas?
TiggerTwist
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TiggerTwist, I think you're right on the money regarding the scene of Jack in the bar with vile Jimbo. I think vile Jimbo, after rebuffing Jack, goes over to his group of macho buddies to rat Jack out (probably said something to the effect that rodeo cowboy over there was hitting on him). I do think this scene, as well as others, are in the movie to show society's disapproval of homosexuality and that the tire iron scenario was very possible.
As far as the calf roping comment, I think it could be an innuendo. For example, roping someone or something after you've dragged it down on its back (as in calf roping) could certainly be a sexual reference. But, I don't know that much about rodeoing (other than what I learned from Jack F'n Twist--Yee-Haw), so I'll defer to someone else.
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TiggerTwist- I agree with Stacp.
Also, in the story their is a very significant two word sentence Proulx has Jack utter- "Other reasons".
He says those words to Ennis in the motel when Jack is telling Ennis why he got our of rodeo, like being being "busted up" and not having the money.
In an interview, Ossana and McMurtry said the screenplay incorporates "virtually every sentence of the story". Of course, they don't mean that all the words Jack and Ennis say in the story is in the screenplay dialog. I wish. What they meant was virtually every sentence is represented somehow on the screen.
The vile Jimbo the Clown scene = "Other reasons"
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Thanks stacp & JHL11 for your quick responses on my questions above (#847). As you say this movie is packed full of inuendos, you've got to realize it though and it takes more than 1 viewing to do so.
Thanks a heap
TiggerTwist
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Hmmm.... unless things have changed drastically in the rodeo world since I was a kid (same time Jack and Ennis were), calf roping was a respectable rodeo event done by thoroughly macho cowboys. It took a lot of skill, and a well-trained horse. Thus Jack's reply about not being able to afford one.
I think he stormed out because of Jimbo's rebuff and the possible danger from Jimbo and friends.
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I'm not sure he and Cassie had sex. I tend to think they didn't.
I think they did...because that's what "puttin the blocks to" means. Unless you're suggesting that Ennis was just telling Jack that to maintain the "I'm not queer" image...which I'd never thought of before!
Don't forget that Annie makes it clear not everything they say is true, even to each other. Perhaps Ennis said that because Jack asked the question about "you ain't found someone else to marry" and seemed possibly worried that Ennis didn't have a cover. Alma also expressed concern, although her's had an edge. I have doubts about Ennis and Cassie. I think the relationship was mostly in Cassie's mind. In fact, as far as the story is concerned as opposed to the film, I wonder if there was any relationship at all, beyond a bit of flirting as he bought a drink.
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"In fact, as far as the story is concerned as opposed to the film, I wonder if there was any relationship at all, beyond a bit of flirting as he bought a drink."
I can see where, based upon the story, one could draw that conclusion.
I drew the opposite conclusion form both the story and film: Although Ennis is a closeted gay man, I find it incredible that Ennis and Cassie did not have sex. In fact, Ennis and Cassie had sex BECAUSE Ennis is closeted gay man.
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On the entertainment pages of papers I've read today here in England everyone considers BBM their DVD of the week, and duly praise it, though one reviewer has one complaint, saying the reason she wasn't as moved as she felt she would have been by the film was that she wished Ang Lee had spent more time on Jack and Ennis and their 'liasons' - as she called them, and that he spent too much time on showing their lives as married men.
I have to say I agree with that, it's a complaint I've had about the film since I first saw it, and I've seen other people say the same. They left the mountain 40 minutes into a 2hr 15 mins film, and leaving out their last scene together which did last a few minutes, the time spent on their meetings over 16 years was about 5 minutes screen time, that's all. Far too little and very frustrating to watch, specially as any dialogue we actually got was always unhappy and showed nothing of the love they felt for each other. The only happy bit we saw was the first meeting after the reunion, and the way they smile at each other when they see each other. Aside from that, that meeting lasted about 30 seconds on screen. the next one was about 2 minutes at most, ending in an argument, and then, of course, we got the last scene together.
So after BBM and the big reunion scene, they saw each other a measly 3 times, and as i say, barely 5 minutes sceen time if you exclude the last scene. I know some people say the whole point was to show the frustrations of their meetings (though 30 seconds is not a lot of time given even to showing this!) and the film is overall about lost love, and all that, but they clearly loved each other for many years, so why didn't he just show that sometimes?! Why barely show them together at all in a time span of 16 years?! Ang DID spend too much time in the second half of the film on Ennis and Alma/Cassie and Jack and Lureen as couples, as if the film was about marriage and the breakdown of marriage between straight couples, rather than being about Jack and Ennis and their love story.
What is even more frustrating, of course, in light of photos seen since the film came out, is that they obviously did film more of them together and we just didn't see it. We all know the comments about the hippie scene, but at least it was filmed and was from one of their times together, likewise the extra pictures from the first meeting after the reunion that seem to show more was filmed than the 10 seconds we saw!
It's the only downside to me about the film, not enough Jack and Ennis in the last hour of the film, so I can understand why some people have said that it's because of this they don't feel the pain Ennis does at the end, cos unless you're totally hooked on the film - like we are on here! - you'd almost wonder why he was so upset at just losing someone he fishes with now and then! I actually saw someone write that somewhere. That they had a fling on the mountain but rarely saw each other after that, and the viewer was never given an impression of a great love between them so ... as I say, why be all that upset for Ennis that Jack died. More sympathy probably went with Lureen. She lost her husband, Ennis only lost a mate.
On the surface I can see why some people WOULD see it like that.
But I do wish there was more of Ennis and Jack together after they left the mountain if only to give visual evidence of how strong their love was for each other that it lasted 20 years, rather than just having to assume it cos thats what the story is!
So I don't care how bad the hippie scene was I'd give anything to see it just because it would have shown Ennis and Jack together for longer than 10 seconds after leaving the mountain!
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I thought the hippie scene was with Jack and Randall, did I read this wrong? Jack and Ennis evidently met once-twice per year after the first four years and the movie didn't show all the actual meetings. If they had shown all this, the movie would have lasted at least four hours. I would have watched for four hours, but I know other people who would not.
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The best answer I can come up with is good old fashioned "gay-dar"! It's possible. The minute I saw Randall, I just suspected some flirtation was going to take place. It's almost like pheromones are at work! It's also like that earlier scene in the bar where Jack tried to buy Jimbo the clown a beer. You know an attraction exists, but that time, you could just sense that something was wrong, the advances were not "well received".
Yep, we covered this over in "The Lighter Side"... as you can see.
(https://ultimatebrokebackforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg275.imageshack.us%2Fimg275%2F9528%2Fbb7356po.jpg&hash=9a1651d0ea3f6d16967f065e77e21dc41be7cc06)
After three Bud Lights, Randall's gaydar suddenly goes off.
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I thought the hippie scene was with Jack and Randall, did I read this wrong? Jack and Ennis evidently met once-twice per year after the first four years and the movie didn't show all the actual meetings. If they had shown all this, the movie would have lasted at least four hours. I would have watched for four hours, but I know other people who would not.
There are pics of Jack and Ennis on horseback - look to be early 70's by Jack's hair! ... one of them looking down at something, a pic that has been around for ages though at first it wasn't known what they were looking at - and there's a pic taken from a site featuring production shots, of Jack and Ennis riding away from some people. You can see them in the corner of the picture - the hippies they helped.
http://www.bioscop.cz/_web/_filmy/b_zkrocena_hora/fotografie/058_zkrocena_hora.jpg
Left of the pic, who they are walking away from - the hippies! ;D
All they had to do was cut some of the domestic life Jack and Ennis lived and instead focused on the two of them, that wouldn't have made a lot of difference to the length, if it gave us a flavour of their relationship over the years.
I remember the writers saying on the DVD that one of the things not in the book that they added was the domestic life of Jack and Ennis. I'll say they added it! I wonder it didn't occur to them that might have been a good reason Jack and Ennis's domestic life wasn't featured in detail in the story ... because it wasn't that important, as the story focused on Jack and Ennis, which is the whole point cos it IS their story.
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Yes that is true, but to be fair to the filmmaker, Annie Proulx can get away with saying (not an exact quote) "after a few months of this Alma said what am I hangin around with him for, divorced Ennis and married the Riverton grocer", but without an omniscient narrator you can't really accomplish that in a film without showing the divorce scene and establishing another setting with the new husband (who has to be established in a scene separately, and so on and so on.) So I think part of it is the necessary logistics of establishing the facts of their domestic life, and it takes time!
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So I don't care how bad the hippie scene was I'd give anything to see it just because it would have shown Ennis and Jack together for longer than 10 seconds after leaving the mountain!
I'm lost here!
What hippie scene are you talking about? I assume it ended up on the cutting room floor.
obliged,
TiggerTwist
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So I don't care how bad the hippie scene was I'd give anything to see it just because it would have shown Ennis and Jack together for longer than 10 seconds after leaving the mountain!
I'm lost here!
What hippie scene are you talking about? I assume it ended up on the cutting room floor.
obliged,
TiggerTwist
It did, but they filmed it, as the picture above shows. So it exists in the 'not seen' section of bits they filmed but didn't put in the finished film.
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Hi Ellye,
What picture? Where?
TiggerTwist
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Hi Ellye,
What picture? Where?
TiggerTwist
This one. Hippies they've just helped, to the left.
http://www.bioscop.cz/_web/_filmy/b_zkrocena_hora/fotografie/058_zkrocena_hora.jpg
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This one. Hippies they've just helped, to the left.
http://www.bioscop.cz/_web/_filmy/b_zkrocena_hora/fotografie/058_zkrocena_hora.jpg
Thanks. Maybe when the next DVD comes out we'll see these deleted scenes. Funny Jack doesn't have his hat on, isn't that part of your "attire" of being a cowboy?
Thanks, again
TiggerTwist
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Jake Gyllenhaal looks rather fetching in this still, but, man, the makeup – on both of them – is terrible. Check out the pancake batter on Ledger's cheeks and the folds beside Gyllie's eyes.
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I have to say I agree with that, it's a complaint I've had about the film since I first saw it, and I've seen other people say the same. They left the mountain 40 minutes into a 2hr 15 mins film, and leaving out their last scene together which did last a few minutes, the time spent on their meetings over 16 years was about 5 minutes screen time, that's all. Far too little and very frustrating to watch, specially as any dialogue we actually got was always unhappy and showed nothing of the love they felt for each other. The only happy bit we saw was the first meeting after the reunion, and the way they smile at each other when they see each other. Aside from that, that meeting lasted about 30 seconds on screen. the next one was about 2 minutes at most, ending in an argument, and then, of course, we got the last scene together.
Can we get a HELL YES here! I agree with your entire post, Ellye. Maybe I'm just stingy, but I definitely wanted to see more scenes of Jack and Ennis on their meetings. They could've added 15 more minutes onto the film (would've taken it to a two and a half hour movie, still shorter than "Lord of the Rings" or "Titanic" for example) to show a little more of the love deepening and growing stronger between the two men. This would've added to the believability of the love story for all those naysayers (some are in my own family!). Plus this would have been a reward for all of us who were invested in the love story from the get go. Maybe they'll release another DVD with some deleted scenes. I'll be in line waiting for it. :)
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. They could've added 15 more minutes onto the film (would've taken it to a two and a half hour movie, still shorter than "Lord of the Rings" or "Titanic" for example) to show a little more of the love deepening and growing stronger between the two men.
I would have liked to see more between them too, but dare I say they could even have cut out some scenes? There were some which added to the film and I can see why they were put in, but I don't think they were absolutely necessary. I'm thinking mainly of some of the scenes with Jack in Texas [thanksgiving, etc.]. It might have been interesting to see the film more from Ennis's perspective rather than both [after all we're left with Ennis's perspective at the end].
There was also a key part left out - the part where Ennis remembers Jack talking about his father. I've read that this couldn't be filmed, but I'm sure there could have been a way to do it.
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I think we should demand a reshoot!
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I'm not sure he and Cassie had sex. I tend to think they didn't.
I think they did...because that's what "puttin the blocks to" means. Unless you're suggesting that Ennis was just telling Jack that to maintain the "I'm not queer" image...which I'd never thought of before!
Don't forget that Annie makes it clear not everything they say is true, even to each other. Perhaps Ennis said that because Jack asked the question about "you ain't found someone else to marry" and seemed possibly worried that Ennis didn't have a cover. Alma also expressed concern, although her's had an edge. I have doubts about Ennis and Cassie. I think the relationship was mostly in Cassie's mind. In fact, as far as the story is concerned as opposed to the film, I wonder if there was any relationship at all, beyond a bit of flirting as he bought a drink.
Angel,
I know it feels Ennis is being unfaithful to Jack, but it was just a cover, as you said, and as I've posted before, he'd never love any woman the way he loved Jack.
But sex was different; it was a release for him-he "liked" it with women, per the book-, and a continuation of his denial.
Here are the clues as I see them, from the film version-again, different from the book in some ways:
-The foot rub in Ennis lap ( classic prelude to you -know- what; plus an echo of Jack's approaches to Ennis in FNIT, only he puts Ennis hand in his lap, while Cassie puts her feet in Ennis' lap-"what're you doin'?)=Cassie as the female Jack;
-He introduces her to his daughter, ergo, this is not casual, despite how it turns out;
-There is wine left over from his days with her in the trailer fridge; so she spent time in that crappy trailer. I don't know too many women who would, unless they were there for a very specific reason;
-There is real pain there when they part; She has fallen in love with him; he pretends he is feeling betrayed-"looks like I got the message"-with regards to Carl, ie, using sexual jealousy to slip out of the relationship. But I do think he cared about her, to a certain extent; he clearly felt bad about breaking her heart.
But no matter: Jack was irreplacable.
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I'm not sure he and Cassie had sex. I tend to think they didn't.
I think they did...because that's what "puttin the blocks to" means. Unless you're suggesting that Ennis was just telling Jack that to maintain the "I'm not queer" image...which I'd never thought of before!
Don't forget that Annie makes it clear not everything they say is true, even to each other. Perhaps Ennis said that because Jack asked the question about "you ain't found someone else to marry" and seemed possibly worried that Ennis didn't have a cover. Alma also expressed concern, although her's had an edge. I have doubts about Ennis and Cassie. I think the relationship was mostly in Cassie's mind. In fact, as far as the story is concerned as opposed to the film, I wonder if there was any relationship at all, beyond a bit of flirting as he bought a drink.
Angel,
I know it feels Ennis is being unfaithful to Jack, but it was just a cover, as you said, and as I've posted before, he'd never love any woman the way he loved Jack.
I don't feel that Ennis was being unfaithful to Jack. My point is that in the book, we have no real idea if there was a relationship or not, beyond what Ennis says, and they often lie to each other and to themselves. The whole thing may have been a fake tale.
I agree, in the film there is definately a sexual relationship but I reckon Ennis might have done the bare minimum. And yes, thanks for bringing up the trailer - did Cassie have no standards? :)
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::)
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I've been trying to avoid saying this, but one thing that made me giggle in the cinema, but up till now I've thought was too immature to mention was :
At the end of the scene in the car with Jack and Lureen's breasts, we change to a view of the supermarket and the signs 'Fresh Produce' and 'Choice Meats' and Ennis driving up. It occurred to me that it was a hint that Jack preferred choice meat to the other produce on offer.
There, I said it.
OK Desecra, (sorry for a belated post, I just read this)
Now I have to admit the part that makes ME want to giggle. The first sex scene with Ennis and Alma...Right after Ennis flips Alma over to do her in the a** . The segue in the rodeo scene has the announcer saying, "Let her rip and snort!"...I just about peed in my pants when I heard this. :-X Nobody around me in the theater seemed to notice the hysterical irony to this transition in scenes!
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[k.
I don't feel that Ennis was being unfaithful to Jack. My point is that in the book, we have no real idea if there was a relationship or not, beyond what Ennis says, and they often lie to each other and to themselves. The whole thing may have been a fake tale.I agree, in the film there is definately a sexual relationship but I reckon Ennis might have done the bare minimum. And yes, thanks for bringing up the trailer - did Cassie have no standards? :)
Ok, understood, about the faithfulness part. My own projection going on there, probably. :-[
But I think the film elaborates to specifically address the straight agenda: Could Ennis love a woman? Anyone with hope would lose it after the denoument of Cassie and Ennis, on film.
There is and will always be only Jack.
So, I think the sex part almost becomes a requirement, but no crap on the bare minimum: I'm guessing Ennis may even light up a smoke BEFORE he finished...
And, as the fates would have it, I myself have seen the inside of a dumpy trailer from a horizontal vantage point, it pains me to admit. And I can guarantee you I agreed to go there for one reason only....because, yes, you guessed it, I have not standards!!!! ;)
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So, I think the sex part almost becomes a requirement, but no crap on the bare minimum: I'm guessing Ennis may even light up a smoke BEFORE he finished...
And, as the fates would have it, I myself have seen the inside of a dumpy trailer from a horizontal vantage point, it pains me to admit. And I can guarantee you I agreed to go there for one reason only....because, yes, you guessed it, I have not standards!!!! ;)
LOL - Ennis lighting up before he finished ;D. Poor Cassie. I wonder if she liked anal sex and at first thought he was being quite liberal and kinky? Or if he only had the nerve to do that routine with Alma?
I don't think the trailer is a big deal though. I think she was attracted to Ennis, she could see there was something worth having there [even if she would never have it] and I don't think she was well off herself. I remember when a guy having his own place [however poor it might be] would be quite an advantage over trying to get some private space at the parents' abode :).
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(...)
The instance in the story where Jack's father says "this spring he's got another one's goin a come up here with him and build a place..." was the line where the Randall character was developed from (to me) in the screen play. It kind of all falls into place -- Randall makes an obvious advance to Jack the night they meet, and although nothing may really happen between them for years (sexually), they are still in contact, and as Jack continues to get more and more frustrated with his and Ennis's situation (even before their final time together), he is torn between waiting for Ennis and moving on with someone else (...)
Despite Jack's trip(s) to Mexico and encounters with Randall, there is no doubt that it is Ennis who he is truly in love with. But sadly he also knows that he will never be able to be with him the way he wants. So maybe, the "ranch neighbor"/Randall is someone he could be happy with -- at least happier than he is with Lureen -- but never to the extent that he would be with Ennis.[/
I´ve seen the movie for the 4th time recently and since then there´s something on my mind constantly about Randall and the scene at Jack´s parents.
After Ennis´and Jack´s last meeting Jack realized that his dream of a life together with Ennis will never come true. Out of despair and disappointment he turns to Randall. Of course Jack´s heart will always belong to Ennis and noone else, but I ask myself whether Jack at that summer at his parents´ house decided to set himself free from Ennis.
What do you think, would he have refused to meet Ennis again in November knowing the meeting would have turned out the same way it has done the past 20 years, too short, not enough time and hidden away up on BBM knowing nothing would ever change? What do you think would have happened if he hadn´t died?
I mean he planned to bring Randall up to his parents. What would he have done in November? Or was Randall just there to fill the gap until then?
I mean I hope so. Don´t like the thought of Jack making his meetings and his bond with Ennis history.
Please tell me what you think of it, as I keep thinking about that all the time.
(And sorry, if I made mistakes as far as grammar goes, I`m german, so my English is not perfect.)
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I also posted this in the Early Scenes" Thread...
Only if your in your 30's and 40's and up and live or grew up on the East Coast, NY, NJ and maybe other neighboring States will you know who I'm talking about. Harry Harrison was a DJ from the 60's to the 90's that had his own show and played songs. I think he was on AM then FM I can't remember but you can clearly hear him in the background in the bar scene.
I turned around looking in the theater because I couldn't believe I was hearing him. Why Ang had him there is strange because my husband looked his past broadcasts up and he wasn't on the Wyoming airwaves. I have not seen this mentioned but what a trip! LOL
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Ljeen,
I grew up there ( Jersey City ). Harry Harrison ...the name and voice so familiar, yet I didn't notice what you did ( You do pay attention! I'm impressed. :) )
But then, I'm alsways going to be kidded by the person who asked me what I thought of the soundtrack after the first viewing. I replied " Was there music? I don't recall any..." But I excuse myself this way: the expressions on the boys faces were speaking so strongly I could 'hear' nothing else.
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I don't think the trailer is a big deal though. I think she was attracted to Ennis, she could see there was something worth having there [even if she would never have it] and I don't think she was well off herself. I remember when a guy having his own place [however poor it might be] would be quite an advantage over trying to get some private space at the parents' abode :).
Diana Ossana said that they drew heavily from Avedon's unsparing photographs for this movie - particularly the contrast between the picture-postcard scenery and the lives of most of the people who live below it.
As a waitress in a Riverton bar ("going to nursing school or somethin'), you can bet Cassie doesn't have an easy life. The amenities in Ennis' trailer would likely be the least of her concerns. And after all, we never see where she lives; the surroundings might not be any better.
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I´ve seen the movie for the 4th time recently and since then there´s something on my mind constantly about Randall and the scene at Jack´s parents.
After Ennis´and Jack´s last meeting Jack realized that his dream of a life together with Ennis will never come true. Out of despair and disappointment he turns to Randall. Of course Jack´s heart will always belong to Ennis and noone else, but I ask myself whether Jack at that summer at his parents´ house decided to set himself free from Ennis.
What do you think, would he have refused to meet Ennis again in November knowing the meeting would have turned out the same way it has done the past 20 years, too short, not enough time and hidden away up on BBM knowing nothing would ever change? What do you think would have happened if he hadn´t died?
I mean he planned to bring Randall up to his parents. What would he have done in November? Or was Randall just there to fill the gap until then?
I mean I hope so. Don´t like the thought of Jack making his meetings and his bond with Ennis history.
Please tell me what you think of it, as I keep thinking about that all the time.
(And sorry, if I made mistakes as far as grammar goes, I`m german, so my English is not perfect.)
Your grammar is probably better than most first language English speakers :).
I don't know what Jack would have done in November. At first I thought he planned to live with Randall but continue to meet Ennis. But the more I think of it, the more I'm leaning towards that being the end. Of course, we will never know for sure.
My guess is that Jack wouldn't have responded the postcards and there wouldn't have been another meeting. I hate to think of it like that, but it's the theory that seems most likely to me. I think it's reached the point where he knows he can't go on any longer the way things are and that it's hurting Ennis too - and the little they've got, the fishing trips, are getting less frequent. Unless Ennis made some change, I think that was the end.
Of course, there are other interpretations :). I wonder what would have happened if Ennis had been able to make the August date. Would Jack have seen that as a change in the right direction? Was he waiting for that sign? If so, he'd have been disappointed.
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Ljeen,
I grew up there ( Jersey City ). Harry Harrison ...the name and voice so familiar, yet I didn't notice what you did ( You do pay attention! I'm impressed. :) )
But then, I'm alsways going to be kidded by the person who asked me what I thought of the soundtrack after the first viewing. I replied " Was there music? I don't recall any..." But I excuse myself this way: the expressions on the boys faces were speaking so strongly I could 'hear' nothing else.
All4one, if you have the DVD and they cut to them sitting at the bar right away you hear Harry introduce himself and when you hear it it's so familiar sounding that you'll certainly remember it. I think it was the WABC radio station. My husband heard it too and couldn't believe it. LOL
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Your grammar is probably better than most first language English speakers :).
I don't know what Jack would have done in November. At first I thought he planned to live with Randall but continue to meet Ennis. But the more I think of it, the more I'm leaning towards that being the end. Of course, we will never know for sure.
My guess is that Jack wouldn't have responded the postcards and there wouldn't have been another meeting. I hate to think of it like that, but it's the theory that seems most likely to me. I think it's reached the point where he knows he can't go on any longer the way things are and that it's hurting Ennis too - and the little they've got, the fishing trips, are getting less frequent. Unless Ennis made some change, I think that was the end.
Of course, there are other interpretations :). I wonder what would have happened if Ennis had been able to make the August date. Would Jack have seen that as a change in the right direction? Was he waiting for that sign? If so, he'd have been disappointed.
Thanks for the compliment Desecra. :)
I really wonder if Jack hadn´t responded to the postcard. I mean of course he´s disillusioned and probably
intented not to respond but as a matter of fact he still loved Ennis and knows he always will.
So intentions are one thing, but what you make of it is something else.
In my imagination I see Jack and Ennis finally together again in November (can´t stand the thought of Jack quitting Ennis for good).
Good question what would have happened if Ennis had managed to make August work.
I guess Jack, although being disappointed that "there´s never enough time", surely would have kept these rare meetings going on just like all the years before (forget about Randall).
Again, disappointment about a frustrating situation you aren´t able to change is one thing, but love has its own rules.
Of course we´ll never know, I´m just interested in what other people think about that.
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Just watched the film again...gazillionth time...and noticed something I never paid attention to before.
In the bar, when Cassie asks Jr. if she thinks she's the right one for her dad, Jr. says "You're good enough."
And, how true that was. Cassie was "good enough" if Ennis had wanted a woman in his life. She would have been "good enough" for Ennis to keep up appearances and she was "good enough" to give Ennis sexual release in between his visits with Jack...
Just a thought.
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Dececra wrote: My guess is that Jack wouldn't have responded the postcards and there wouldn't have been another meeting.
Desecra, Vivy
i don't believe Jack would that. When you love s'one you don't just dissappear from his life without saying s'thing. Their confrontation during their last time together was explosive and they did expose their souls to each other as never before.But IMO it wasn't about breaking-up. Their love was unbearable but they knew their everyday live would become more unbearable without this love. Of course i believe Jack was trying to get his mesaages to Ennis but i believe deep in his heart he wouldn't leave him. He just wanted to give him a shake and make him think that he might not be there always. He didn't mean it when he said "i wish knew how to quit you" but he certainly wanted to scear Ennis and to make him think there is the possibility of him doing so. Also when Ennis started crying Jack tried to embracce him saying him that everything is ok. And i truly believe that everything was ok just as everything was all right in the SNIT.
Vivy wrote: (And sorry, if I made mistakes as far as grammar goes, I`m german, so my English is not perfect.)
I'm sorry too. I'm greek.
Des
sorry i know i'm OT here but i was a bit carried away. I just felt i had to say these things to both Desecra & Vivy.
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Dececra wrote: My guess is that Jack wouldn't have responded the postcards and there wouldn't have been another meeting.
Desecra, Vivy
i don't believe Jack would that. When you love s'one you don't just dissappear from his life without saying s'thing.
Thank you for your comments, Gres. I'll explain why I said that. First of all, I'm coming from a position of thinking that Jack is planning to live with Randall [as this suggested, and I don't see a good reason to assume otherwise]. So I'm thinking that at the time of postcards or another meeting Jack would be living with Randall, or at least making arrangements to do so. That makes meeting up with Ennis more complicated, doesn't it? Either Randall would have to know [and approve?], or Jack would have to go behind Randall's back.
I agree that if you love someone you wouldn't just disappear. But to me, it seems [only slightly!] more likely that Jack would disappear than that he'd make the November meeting. Partly because that is the way that the characters seem to act - Jack and Ennis don't contact each other for ages after Brokeback, for instance. Ennis doesn't contact Cassie to tell her he doesn't want to see her.
Maybe Jack would like to see Ennis for a last time, and tell him he's leaving and why. But it's SO difficult for them to communicate. The final meeting is the closest they get to the truth, and look how painful it is for them. Could Jack go through that again?
There is also the way things are left at the last meeting. Jack knows that Ennis finally knows what the situation is - that he misses him so much, that he's gay, that there's no other way for him. By the same token that you would meet someone to tell them it was over, you would also contact someone after a huge argument where lifechanging truths were uncovered. We know Ennis had Jack's number, but he doesn't phone after the meeting [and I've speculated as to why, and I don't think Ennis could really have done otherwise - but if he had - maybe it could have changed things?]. Jack's cards are on the table - the onus is on Ennis to show change, and he doesn't. It's Ennis's answer to Jack, in a way. [Myself, I think Ennis was more slow moving and may have come round in the end, but does Jack think that?]. Jack 'knows' that if he meets Ennis in November, Ennis will expect that everything is back to normal and they will carry on meeting a couple of times a year. What can he do then? Start the whole argument that they had at the last meeting again? Where would that get them?
I apologise if this isn't very clear - I've been writing it during frequent interruptions :). And of course, it is pure speculation. I suppose that I can't see ANOTHER showdown happening - the last meeting really was the last in that way. [And of course, I don't think Jack ever stopped loving Ennis].
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I am planning a BBM site-finding trip to Alberta next week. My plan is to focus upon the town and ranch sites, leaving the high-altitude ones for a summer visit. (I can get by on only a couple of high-altitude trips a year.)
I have studied the "Swerve" and "Travel Alberta" articles and (roughly) located most sites but, as you would imagine, there are many that are still unclear. If anyone has any information about the shooting locations of these scenes, I would be grateful for your help.
Signal Bar Interior
E's Alley
Fireworks Area
Motel Exterior
E's Flashback
Newsome Farm Equipment
Courtroom
Riverton Bar (E's fight)
E's Trailer
If all goes according to plan, I hope to compile a list of sites with directions and GPS coordinates. Thanks in advance for any help you might be able to provide!
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Since this thread has turned into a bit of a discussion on Did Jack quite Ennis, I'll put in my 2c. worth.
I think Jack was written as too sympathetic a character to allow us to think he would leave Ennis without saying a word, i.e. not respond to the postcards. There is nothing in the story which should lead a reader to think that was the case beyond Mr Twist's words.
Jack goes to his folks' home directly after the argument. He's hurt, he's desperately disappointed, in some ways his youthful naievity has died. He says those things to his parents but does he mean them? Would he have acted out those thoughts? My guess is that he possibly wouldn't have.
How the relationship panned out after that is anyone's guess. What intrigues me more about this is - Why do some of us so desperately want to believe Jack would not quit Ennis? I'm one of them, by the way. Why do we not want to feel that even the love of your life can tire and fall away? It's questions like that which will have me immersed in this film for ever.
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Since this thread has turned into a bit of a discussion on Did Jack quite Ennis, I'll put in my 2c. worth.
I think Jack was written as too sympathetic a character to allow us to think he would leave Ennis without saying a word, i.e. not respond to the postcards. There is nothing in the story which should lead a reader to think that was the case beyond Mr Twist's words.
You may well be right. Ennis would not respond maybe, but Jack? However, I wasn't really getting into the did Jack quit argument, but more assuming that he did quit - would he have made the November meeting? [Obviously if he didn't quit, then he would have made the November meeting]. If he made the November meeting, I have to imagine [him leaving Randall to go to see Ennis, and then going through another confrontation with Ennis. I don't think he'd want to put Enins [or himself] through that. I don't think that's due to lack of caring. In a way, what needed to be said has been said.
[I don't think John Twist's words were relevant [do you mean about Jack's ideas never coming to pass?] as to whether he'd see Ennis in November or not. Jack's plans not coming to pass weren't due to his own actions, or lack of. If he didn't see Ennis in November, it wouldn't be due to fecklessness.]
I've also tried to think about the relationship continuing, with Jack living withRandall but still seeing Ennis [i.e. not splitting up at the November meeting even, but continuing to see him]. It's possible. I like to think they'd have carried on until a point when Ennis could have changed and they could have been together. I still haven't made my mind up about this :). I tend to be swayed partly because of the very unscientific evidence of the way Jack looks when we last see him.
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can anybody tell me exactly what ennis and jack were fighting about in the scene where they were physically fighting with each other on brokeback mountain.
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Ennis was probably upset that he and Jack were asked to leave the mountain early. Jack's lighthearted reaction to the news (no doubt b/c he assumed that their relationship would continue off-mountain) pissed him off; it's the first example we see of Ennis resorting to violence to deal with the complexity of his emotions.
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For me, Jack's stays , visit or call his family whenever he is hurt, disappointed or we might call it when he is in deep pain. I still believe, even when he has some ill-feelings towards his father, there is no place like home/family. All of us when we are deep pain, we always go back to our family no matter what. They say, our immediate family is our back-support system. Normally when we have big problems, we always end up with the people who brought us out of this world and they are our parents.
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Ennis was probably upset that he and Jack were asked to leave the mountain early. Jack's lighthearted reaction to the news (no doubt b/c he assumed that their relationship would continue off-mountain) pissed him off; it's the first example we see of Ennis resorting to violence to deal with the complexity of his emotions.
Sotoalf
there's a possibility that Jack had enough time to deal with it. And yes you are right that Jack wasn't upset because he believed their relationship would continue . Of course in that scene we can only see Ennis' reaction at hearing the bad news but not Jack's when actually heard the news for the 1st by Agguire.
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forgive me for not scrolling back thru in a thread tht I dont usually read =
but tonight I am hearing about hearing loss, and how folks in certain occupations wear earplugs -
did Ennis pull out an earplug, when working on asphalting the highway? does this indicate that he has one in the other ear and hasnt heard a word his co-worker has said. I guess so.
if this is so, I appreciate this touch of both realism and symbolism.
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I was watching BBM on DVD tonight. I find myself playing my favorite scenes in slo mo or stepping through them one pane at a time using the pause button. I also have the picture brightness turned all the way up, and that reveals a lot that is otherwise obscured in darkness. Anyway, tonight it struck me how pivotal the scene at the truck is after they've come down off the mountain after the summer herding sheep. By that time they love each other. Jack is clear about it and Ennis is denying it. Jack has Ennis' shirt--all he can get from Ennis and he has to steal that. Both of them look unhappy. Two words into Ennis' "Can't believe I left my ..." line, Lee cuts to Jack's face. Jack looks a little guilty knowing he's got the shirt but mostly just miserable at parting from his love. Ennis says he won't be back next summer because he's going to marry Alma. Jack responds, interestingly, by saying he may come back if the army doesn't get him. The remark shows his attunement to Ennis: Alma will prevent Ennis' return while army would prevent Jack's return. The implication is that but for Alma/army, both would reunite next summer. The army may draft Jack (I think they were drafting in '63. U.S.'s involvement in Vietnam was heating up at that time.), and marriage is going to draft Ennis. Alma/army are going to waylay Jack and Ennis from what they really want to do. Alma and army even sound alike. With the TV brightness turned up all the way, you can see Ennis' eyes under the brim of his hat as he's squinting into the sunlight. He looks directly at Jack showing concern, and also looking miserable, when Jack mentions the army. I found the Alma/army similarity interesting.
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In the grocery store, after Alma Jr has caused the collapse of the peanut-jar display, there's a shot of Monroe in which we see a cardboard cut-out of the Jolly Green Giant over his shoulder. This strikes me as a bit of subtle characterization: like the Green Giant, Monroe is big but nonthreatening and somewhat comic. The angle of the shot (from below eye level) reminds me of another shot a few minutes earlier in the film in which we see Ennis against a sky full of fireworks. These shots perhaps contrast Ennis and Monroe: the one explosive, the other placid.
The Jolly Green Giant as symbol for Monroe works for another reason. I'm old enough to remember those TV commercials, and the catchy song they used. The song lyrics emphasized the valley: "Good things from the garden, garden in the valley, valley of the Jolly Green Giant ... tender corn a comin' from the valley." Monroe is a creature of the valley, where society dwells. He makes his living selling cultivated and processed food in the town market. In contrast, Ennis' element is the mountain, the traditional abode of ascetics renouncing worldliness. Up there he felt happy enough to "paw the white right out of the moon"--a superhuman feat and an allusion to wild predatory animals. Monroe in the valley uses an electric knife to slice a domesticated turkey. Ennis eats the wild animals he killed and butchered and kills coyotes with balls as big as apples that could eat camels. Proulx described the mountain as boiling with demonic energy. Ennis even volunteered to switch jobs with Jack when they were sheep herding to be up on the mountain rather than tending the camp.
Maybe that's why Ennis couldn't "marry" Jack. That arrangement would have domesticated him as much as marrying Alma. He would have been forced to leave his element to live in the valley running the domesticated cattle operation that Jack envisioned. He could only be with Jack on his turf--the mountain.
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I am sure you must have caught this one if you have watched the trailer. This is a scene where Ennis is in a truck with apparently Jack beside him. The camera catches Ennis' closing his eyes for a moment in a pained way. It's of course cut from the movie. My guess is that it could be when both of them are hding up into the mountains for the first time after their motel reunion and Ennis is warring with himself. But others elsewhere say it could be when they are hding down from the mountains or there may be a third person in the truck in which case it would have to be during the Brokebk days when they are being shipped up onto Brokeback from the jump off pt. But that pained expression would be difficult to explained if that's the case. More likely would be when they are being called back down from the mountain by Aguirre and Ennis dreads their imminent parting. Anyway, it's by far my favourite cut scene and I hope to heaven it'll be put bk in some future DVD version. I just feel it in my guts that it's either when they hding up to the mountains after the motel or when they are brought back down from Brokeback. Why else would Ennis be pained. I would prefer it be after the motel, though because it would then be so different from what we get from the movie. In the movie, we see an Ennis who can't wait to go away with Jack. He seems so singleminded and brushes everyone aside showing only a tiny guilt when goodbying Alma. But if that pained look is Ennis' warring within himself while they are going into mountains and about to start something so dangerous and out of his world again, then a whole dimension of angst and Ennis' personality would go into the movie.
Anyway, be it after the motel or when they're coming down from Brokeback, a usually clammed up Ennis showing such intense internal turmoil melts me into a pulp. And I am sure this will be shared by countless viewers out there. Just so sexy to see a strong quiet man shows so much emotion. I can never understand in a million yrs why Ang cut it out.
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I am sure you must have caught this one if you have watched the trailer. This is a scene where Ennis is in a truck with apparently Jack beside him. The camera catches Ennis' closing his eyes for a moment in a pained way. It's of course cut from the movie. My guess is that it could be when both of them are hding up into the mountains for the first time after their motel reunion and Ennis is warring with himself. But others elsewhere say it could be when they are hding down from the mountains or there may be a third person in the truck in which case it would have to be during the Brokebk days when they are being shipped up onto Brokeback from the jump off pt. But that pained expression would be difficult to explained if that's the case. More likely would be when they are being called back down from the mountain by Aguirre and Ennis dreads their imminent parting. Anyway, it's by far my favourite cut scene and I hope to heaven it'll be put bk in some future DVD version. I just feel it in my guts that it's either when they hding up to the mountains after the motel or when they are brought back down from Brokeback. Why else would Ennis be pained. I would prefer it be after the motel, though because it would then be so different from what we get from the movie. In the movie, we see an Ennis who can't wait to go away with Jack. He seems so singleminded and brushes everyone aside showing only a tiny guilt when goodbying Alma. But if that pained look is Ennis' warring within himself while they are going into mountains and about to start something so dangerous and out of his world again, then a whole dimension of angst and Ennis' personality would go into the movie.
Anyway, be it after the motel or when they're coming down from Brokeback, a usually clammed up Ennis showing such intense internal turmoil melts me into a pulp. And I am sure this will be shared by countless viewers out there. Just so sexy to see a strong quiet man shows so much emotion. I can never understand in a million yrs why Ang cut it out.
This was a deleted scene that was subsequent to Ennis' dumping the kids off on Alma in the grocery store...He was supposed to be heading off for a one-nighter-unplanned-with Jack.
They scrapped scene 2, but kept the grocery scene. (speculation has it that Ang Lee may have thought this would cause viewers to judge Ennis more harshly..)
It has been pointed out that some of us sensed Ennis was keeping something from Alma when he dropped off the kids, and the unplanned appearance of Jack explains the lie, in the original scene.
So I think you are very wise in pointing out that he seems conflicted.
What I like about the end result is, IMO, it gives us the heads up that Monroe is going to pick up the mess (the fallen cans) after A and J split up. You can see by the way he looks at her.
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This makes sense, and was a smart bit of editing on the filmmakers' part (even though we are deprived of the scene of them in the truck). It works very nicely - and seamlessly - the way it ended up. I wonder when this edit took place - namely before or after the Venice Film Festival, where the movie got its first real acclaim. I wonder because it's curious to me that the trailer, so brief, would contain so many bits not in the finished production.
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If Jim Shamus and Ang Lee really want to make a fortune, they will put all the filmed but deleted scenes on a DVD so BBM lovers can see every moment, and every piece of footage of Ennis and Jack available.
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If Jim Shamus and Ang Lee really want to make a fortune, they will put all the filmed but deleted scenes on a DVD so BBM lovers can see every moment, and every piece of footage of Ennis and Jack available.
And of course with commentary from either Ang or one of the stars of the film telling the story of how the scene came to be deleted!
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In the grocery store, after Alma Jr has caused the collapse of the peanut-jar display, there's a shot of Monroe in which we see a cardboard cut-out of the Jolly Green Giant over his shoulder. This strikes me as a bit of subtle characterization: like the Green Giant, Monroe is big but nonthreatening and somewhat comic. The angle of the shot (from below eye level) reminds me of another shot a few minutes earlier in the film in which we see Ennis against a sky full of fireworks. These shots perhaps contrast Ennis and Monroe: the one explosive, the other placid.
The Jolly Green Giant as symbol for Monroe works for another reason. I'm old enough to remember those TV commercials, and the catchy song they used. The song lyrics emphasized the valley: "Good things from the garden, garden in the valley, valley of the Jolly Green Giant ... tender corn a comin' from the valley." Monroe is a creature of the valley, where society dwells. He makes his living selling cultivated and processed food in the town market. In contrast, Ennis' element is the mountain, the traditional abode of ascetics renouncing worldliness. Up there he felt happy enough to "paw the white right out of the moon"--a superhuman feat and an allusion to wild predatory animals. Monroe in the valley uses an electric knife to slice a domesticated turkey. Ennis eats the wild animals he killed and butchered and kills coyotes with balls as big as apples that could eat camels. Proulx described the mountain as boiling with demonic energy. Ennis even volunteered to switch jobs with Jack when they were sheep herding to be up on the mountain rather than tending the camp.
Maybe that's why Ennis couldn't "marry" Jack. That arrangement would have domesticated him as much as marrying Alma. He would have been forced to leave his element to live in the valley running the domesticated cattle operation that Jack envisioned. He could only be with Jack on his turf--the mountain.
Jimbonic I have always thought there was something elemental about Ennis. In addition to the traits you mention, he sniffs and nuzzles those he loves (including Alma junior's cardigan and the shirts), he likes being around livestock and sees sex with his wife as being about reproduction ("if you don't want any more of my kids, I'll be happy to leave you alone"). Ennis the wild lone wolf. Having seen one of his own kind trapped and brutally killed he tries to avoid the cultivated valley and it dangers.
Jack used to share that wildness. He rode bulls and shot eagles (in the story). But Jack became a creature of the valley which added another layer of separation between them.
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This was a deleted scene that was subsequent to Ennis' dumping the kids off on Alma in the grocery store...He was supposed to be heading off for a one-nighter-unplanned-with Jack.
They scrapped scene 2, but kept the grocery scene. (speculation has it that Ang Lee may have thought this would cause viewers to judge Ennis more harshly..)
It has been pointed out that some of us sensed Ennis was keeping something from Alma when he dropped off the kids, and the unplanned appearance of Jack explains the lie, in the original scene.
So I think you are very wise in pointing out that he seems conflicted.
What I like about the end result is, IMO, it gives us the heads up that Monroe is going to pick up the mess (the fallen cans) after A and J split up. You can see by the way he looks at her.
I doubt that the deleted scene is before the grocery scene as Ennis hasn't even reunited with Jack yet at that pt. It's not likely that the story line can change that much simply over a deleted scene. As you see, if it's really before the grocery scene, then deleting it has the effect of changing the whole colors of reunion. It would mean that Ennis and Jack actually has already reunited before the actual reunion. And it would not fit into passion and excitement that they show at the actual reunion. Do you mean to say in Ang's original uncut version, the actual reunion scene is not even there? Could I asks where did you get the info that it was before the grocery scene? Thanks.
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I assume that if the grocery scene had been kept as a prelude to a meeting with Jack, then it would have taken place after the reunion. The kids are about the same age in the grocery scene and the reunion scene, aren't they? Maybe originally, the grocery scene was meant to come later, but as Jack isn't shown or mentioned, it works if it comes before the reunion.
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I've been re-watching the scene where Randall propositions Jack, in part because of the wide range of thoughts that various posters think might be in Jack's mind.
As I saw it, Jack was stunned.
We've seen in the past, with Jimbo, how he has tried to pick up men and failed. My guess is that he gave up trying long ago. But here, out of the blue, some guy is propositioning him and he's stunned and trying figure out if fishing at the cabin means what he thinks it means.
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This was a deleted scene that was subsequent to Ennis' dumping the kids off on Alma in the grocery store...He was supposed to be heading off for a one-nighter-unplanned-with Jack.
They scrapped scene 2, but kept the grocery scene. (speculation has it that Ang Lee may have thought this would cause viewers to judge Ennis more harshly..)
IMO, that was a wise decision. Alma's undeserved suffering is enough of a hurdle to get over.
It has been pointed out that some of us sensed Ennis was keeping something from Alma when he dropped off the kids, and the unplanned appearance of Jack explains the lie, in the original scene.
My reaction when I saw this scene was that it was a typical kind of scene for an economically struggling couple who are chronically stressed out over work schedules and finances, and that maybe Ennis was thinking something along the lines of 'damn it, you're the one who wanted to move to town, if we'd stayed where we were you'd be home anyway.' But I did get a kind of odd intensity from the way Heath played it.
What I like about the end result is, IMO, it gives us the heads up that Monroe is going to pick up the mess (the fallen cans) after A and J split up. You can see by the way he looks at her.
Yeah, I think if "the Riverton grocer" hadn't been mentioned in the original story it would have been a good idea to put a Monroe character in anyway. It enables Alma to land on her feet, even though she's obviously still carrying a lot of baggage from her first marriage. And I'm probably in a minority here, but Monroe is one of the characters I really sympathize with. He isn't in an enviable position.
BTW, when you think about it, he's a stock character from traditional Westerns. Most Western movies have a town setting as counterpoint to the desert/mountains/prairies, and in that milieu, Monroe would have been the General Store proprietor. Actually an important position in the town in the West of the 19th century; somewhat demoted to baby-faced grocer in a modern setting.
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So "stunned" doesn't seem to me to be quite the right word to describe Jack's reaction.
While I did see them look at each other, I didn't see any gaydar on the part of Jack in the dance hall. Randell may very well have been sizing up Jack but I don't believe Jack was sizing up Randell.
Jacks reaction outside would seem to me to discount any cruising going on. Jack seems generally taken off guard by what Randell was proposing.
If there was gaydar/cruising going on in the dance hall, Jacks reaction would have been more enthusiastic than surprised. His reaction to Randells suggestion, the s l o w head turn and blank stare, suggests to me genuine surprise and not a knowing look.
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And I'm probably in a minority here, but Monroe is one of the characters I really sympathize with. He isn't in an enviable position.
I sympathise with him too. We see very little of him, but he seems to be a genuinely good guy. I actually find that scene in the grocery very touching, he seems so kind to Alma when she's struggling. He's happy to take her and her kids on, and to invite the ex to dinner. It does look as if he loves Alma and sees something in her that nobody else sees - I don't know if she feels the same. I hope so.
Interesting what you say about how his position as town grocer has fallen since the 'Western' days. I thought the same about Jack and Ennis - no longer noble cowboys, but cheap labour - and I get a feeling that the position of the ranch hand is declining even during the course of the film - as Ennis finds it harder to get work. Jack says something in the book about the changes going on in rodeo too - about how only guys with money can do it now. The status of broke bull-riders seems to be falling now too.
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If I were to guess what's in Jack's mind as Randall makes his overture it would be something like this: "Ever since that summer with Ennis on Brokeback I've dreamed of living with a man I love... but all I get offered is damned fishing trips! First with Ennis, now with Randall. Is that all there is?"
Possibly, but what more could Jack expect from Randall at that moment? I mean, they barely know each other, so Randall isn't going to ask him to run away together right then and there. Jack would have to be delusional to expect more at that point. And though Jack is a dreamer, I don't think he's delusional.
I see Jack's reaction to Randall as his being torn. He sees potential here - but potential for what? What he has with Ennis? Or something more? What does this mean for him and Ennis? Will this hurt his relationship with Ennis? Does he want that? What is he willing to lose?
I see Jack's "stunned" stance as actually being paralysis. Paralyzed because he truly doesn't know how to proceed - or if he wants to...
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Possibly, but what more could Jack expect from Randall at that moment? I mean, they barely know each other, so Randall isn't going to ask him to run away together right then and there. Jack would have to be delusional to expect more at that point. And though Jack is a dreamer, I don't think he's delusional.
Jack could reasonably expect Randall to want to get to know him better, to try to become friends (for that matter, regardless of whether there was a sexual connection in their future or not).
How many connections that start off as just sex wind up as love? Damn few. If all Jack wants is sex, then Randall takes the right approach. But throughout the film we see Jack as someone who longs to live with a man he loves, and there's much talk of Randall being "the ranchhand" that Jack mentions to his parents as the one he's going to build a life with at their farm. If that's what Jack wants, and if we're meant to believe it's a real prospect before Jack dies, then Randall takes the wrong approach.
Since Jack and Randall will potentially be spending a good deal of time together on their "trips," then Jack can "reasonably expect Randall to want to get to know him better, to try to become friends." Randall doesn't ask Jack for a blowjob in the bathroom. Randall sets up the potential for a relationship - a friendship - with sexual overtones of course.
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How many connections that start off as just sex wind up as love?
I would say that most people who fall in love started with sexual attraction. And the vast majority will express this attraction in some way, even it's just kissing, etc. There isn't such a distinction between love and sex as you're seeing. Generally, you might be attracted to lots of people but only fall in love with a few, but the ones you fall in love will be ones you're sexually attracted to.
How often does someone say they're in love with you before there's been any hint of attraction? Personally, I'd run a mile!
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Since Jack and Randall will potentially be spending a good deal of time together on their "trips," then Jack can "reasonably expect Randall to want to get to know him better, to try to become friends." Randall doesn't ask Jack for a blowjob in the bathroom. Randall sets up the potential for a relationship - a friendship - with sexual overtones of course.
I quite agree. Randall's approach is also very polite, and there's not any physical contact. He's not pushy or crude at all. He sets out his idea, allows Jack to pick it up or leave it.
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I would say that most people who fall in love started with sexual attraction.
Of course. But how many people who started with sex fall in love? That was my question.
Well, me. So that's one. And in Hollywood movies? I'd say thousands.
I agree that in life, the majority of sexual "hookups" don't result in any kind of relationship. But on film, they almost always do. Hollywood is oddly Puritanical. Or, to be generous, "Romantic."
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I would say that most people who fall in love started with sexual attraction.
Of course. But how many people who started with sex fall in love? That was my question.
I'm not sure what you're getting at. How many people who DON'T have a sexual relationship fall in love? A lot less than the ones who do, I'd guess. There's certainly more chance of their being love if there's been a sexual attraction in the first place, don't you think? And less chance of falling in love if there's no sexual chemistry?
Are you saying that Randall would have been MORE likely to have fallen for Jack if he hadn't been sexually attracted to him?
I'd agree that most sexual relationships don't end in love, but there's more chance of love if you're already in a sexual relationship with someone. I don't think Randall is meant to be just another sexual encounter -that's already been shown with 'Mexico' - Randall is something else.
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If there was gaydar/cruising going on in the dance hall, Jacks reaction would have been more enthusiastic than surprised.
When Randall and Jack's eyes first meet while sitting at the table with the ladies, do you catch the "sparkle" in each others eyes? It lasts a little more than a few seconds. But it tells the story....
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Just a little more to say on sexual attraction in the film ... Apart from Randall's approach to Jack, there are two other propositions that we see - Lureen's to Jack, and Cassie's to Ennis [there are also Jack's to Jimbo, and possibly the approach to the hustler in Mexico - don't know if that counts]. The first two definitely start as a sexual approach, but they do lead to a relationship, and probably love on the parts of Lureen and Cassie. They are also much more direct than Randall's approach to Jack. To me, there's clearly sex on the agenda in ALL of these approaches.
I'd say the only one where there's ONLY sex on the agenda [i.e. no hope of regular contact, friendship, etc.] is Jack's approach to the hustler.
There's some discussion on the main thread about women's sexual liberation. What's striking in the film is how much more free the women are to make an advance. Or perhaps not women, per se, but straights. Randall has to make his point so subtly, Jack misfires and risks violence when he offers Jimbo a drink. But Lureen can come up with the mating call line and be sitting on top of Jack in the car later. Cassie can thrust her feet at Ennis's crotch and ask him to rub them. It seems like gay men's sexual liberation is being shown as way behind women's. Maybe that's too obvious a point :). But it always strikes me watching the film how difficult and dangerous a life it is, and the way the guys can never just 'be'.
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Since this thread has turned into a bit of a discussion on Did Jack quite Ennis, I'll put in my 2c. worth.
I think Jack was written as too sympathetic a character to allow us to think he would leave Ennis without saying a word, i.e. not respond to the postcards. There is nothing in the story which should lead a reader to think that was the case beyond Mr Twist's words.
Jack goes to his folks' home directly after the argument. He's hurt, he's desperately disappointed, in some ways his youthful naievity has died. He says those things to his parents but does he mean them? Would he have acted out those thoughts? My guess is that he possibly wouldn't have.
How the relationship panned out after that is anyone's guess. What intrigues me more about this is - Why do some of us so desperately want to believe Jack would not quit Ennis? I'm one of them, by the way. Why do we not want to feel that even the love of your life can tire and fall away? It's questions like that which will have me immersed in this film for ever.
Thought a lot about that. I myself came up with this question "would Jack have refused to attend the november meeting and quitting Ennis for good?".
BTW - i know this question is a topic for another thread like"Last scene with Ennis and Jack together", but as it is also discussed here, I have to make a new comment on that here as well.
For me now it is absolutely clear that Jack did not waste a single thought on quitting Ennis after their last meeting. Of course there was this argument and at the end when Ennis left, Jack´s sad expression on his face is quite telling. But to me now it´s "just" an expression of disappointment about the fact that it probably will always be like that,that nothing´s changed so far, but that certainly wasn´t the first time he was sad about that. It has alsways been like that. The only difference is that this time they shouted their disappointment about their situation into each others faces.
Cos "what´s been said was no news", "nothing ended, nothing begun, nothing resolved".
And by the way, this whole discussion about that wouldn´t be necessary if Ennis had been able to make August work. Only because he couldn´t make it, their argument started in the first place. Imagine August would have worked - there wouldn´t have been a reason to quarrel. Only the let´s say"normal" sadness about never "having enough time" would´ve been in their hearts and on their faces.
So, to me there´s is absolutely no doubt anymore: Jack would never ever have given up what Ennis and he shared. He definitely would have attended the november meeting - cos after all and besides all the pain, despair and unfulfilled hopes, he loved Ennis. He was his life no matter the circumstances.
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But to me now it´s "just" an expression of disappointment about the fact that it probably will always be like that,that nothing´s changed so far, but that certainly wasn´t the first time he was sad about that. It has alsways been like that. The only difference is that this time they shouted their disappointment about their situation into each others faces.
IMO their fight was for good. They exposed themselves to each other and they expressed their feelings openly. This made them to take a better look on their relationship and to make them think how important their love was for them. From personal experience i can tell that when people speak the truth to each other then this can make their relationship better and their bond stronger as long as love is there. For Jack and Ennis love was there and their revelations was just a new start for bringing their relationship to a higher level.
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Every time I watch the film I'm sure that the Randall and Jack scene on the bench waiting for the girls is echoing the scene (i.e.bookend) on Brokeback where Ennis confides to Jack he feels like people are suspicious...like they know... they're looking at him etc, that paranoid feeling a closeted man feels.
Why wouldn't Jack feel the same with Randall? It's the same situation Ennis described. Since men have been going fishing with buddies for ever why wouldn't Randall ask Jack to "just" go fishing? I see Jack's reaction to the invitation as uncomfortable, even timid. The invitation didn't seem to have him jump for joy. It may have been the same feeling Ennis had.
But then of course Mr Twist comes in and gives us an inkling of what Jack may have been planning with Randall. That old, hard man, may have been cruelly toying with Ennis feelings, as he most likely has done with Jack's. In other words I'm not at all convinced Jack fell for Randall. I just don't see it.
I probably don't want to see it! ;)
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Why wouldn't Jack feel the same with Randall? It's the same situation Ennis described. Since men have been going fishing with buddies for ever why wouldn't Randall ask Jack to "just" go fishing? I see Jack's reaction to the invitation as uncomfortable, even timid. The invitation didn't seem to have him jump for joy. It may have been the same feeling Ennis had.But then of course Mr Twist comes in and gives us an inkling of what Jack may have been planning with Randall. That old, hard man, may have been cruelly toying with Ennis feelings, as he most likely has done with Jack's. In other words I'm not at all convinced Jack fell for Randall. I just don't see it.
I probably don't want to see it! ;)
I totally agree with this john-john. I like the Randall character alot-just something about him.....
But I have always felt he was a tool of the storytellers, to test Jack's love for Ennis. I always feel the pain that Jack's eyes show, after Randall puts out his veiled proposition: It is almost as if Jack is upset that it's come down to this, that he is considering saying "yes". He is getting desperate with the fewer and fewer times together, but I don't think he is seriously considering replacing Ennis.
His "damn you, Ennis" makes it clear for me: Ennis has again, leashed Jack in. I think Ennis was, by letting Cassie go, as someone else said, "clearing the decks" for being exclusive with Jack. I think the admission about Mexico scared the bejeesus out of Ennis, ie, the possibility that Jack could leave him, but something that he finally has to fix.
(Again, my mantra: Oh, for November to have come...)
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Why wouldn't Jack feel the same with Randall? It's the same situation Ennis described. Since men have been going fishing with buddies for ever why wouldn't Randall ask Jack to "just" go fishing? I see Jack's reaction to the invitation as uncomfortable, even timid. The invitation didn't seem to have him jump for joy. It may have been the same feeling Ennis had.But then of course Mr Twist comes in and gives us an inkling of what Jack may have been planning with Randall. That old, hard man, may have been cruelly toying with Ennis feelings, as he most likely has done with Jack's. In other words I'm not at all convinced Jack fell for Randall. I just don't see it.
I probably don't want to see it! ;)
I totally agree with this john-john. I like the Randall character alot-just something about him.....
But I have always felt he was a tool of the storytellers, to test Jack's love for Ennis. I always feel the pain that Jack's eyes show, after Randall puts out his veiled proposition: It is almost as if Jack is upset that it's come down to this, that he is considering saying "yes". He is getting desperate with the fewer and fewer times together, but I don't think he is seriously considering replacing Ennis.
His "damn you, Ennis" makes it clear for me: Ennis has again, leashed Jack in. I think Ennis was, by letting Cassie go, as someone else said, "clearing the decks" for being exclusive with Jack. I think the admission about Mexico scared the bejeesus out of Ennis, ie, the possibility that Jack could leave him, but something that he finally has to fix.
(Again, my mantra: Oh, for November to have come...)
I totally agree with you.
That "damn you Ennis" sounds like Jack giving himself the answer to his "i wish i knen how to quit you".
I wish i knew how to quit you but damn you Ennnis i can't and i don't want to...
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[http://www.flickr.com/photos/16988923@N00/59188886/][/img]
I don't know if this works for posting the photo or not but here goes. What do you think of this pic of two athletes? Does it remind you of a particular scene in BBM? Is anyone familiar with the relationship of chipper and smotlz of the Atlanta Braves?
Such a great shot and I wonder what remarks they received about it.
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[http://www.flickr.com/photos/16988923@N00/59188886/][/img]
I don't know if this works for posting the photo or not but here goes. What do you think of this pic of two athletes? Does it remind you of a particular scene in BBM? Is anyone familiar with the relationship of chipper and smotlz of the Atlanta Braves?
Such a great shot and I wonder what remarks they received about it.
It doesn't work because you left out the opening img tag, and also because the address is not for the pic itself, so the image itself would not show here in the thread. If you leave off the img tags and show only the address, it would show a link that displays the entire flickr page on which the photo occurs. That's probably better really, showing the link to the pic instead of the pic itself. I really like that pic, btw.
The scene in the movie that you're talking about is the ''drowsy embrace'' as the story's author, Annie Proulx, calls it, or the ''dozy embrace'' as most of the posters here call it. It occurs as a flashback in the last meeting of Jack and Ennis; so this pic would go better there: http://davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=2419.0
But bear in mind that such topics are primarily for discussion of the scenes themselves rather than for showing pics. What might be best is for you to start your own topic for pics that remind us of Brokeback scenes [which would be a pretty cool topic]. The Start Your Own Threads section is here: http://davecullen.com/forum/index.php?board=4.0
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ok thanks, I took your suggestion and set up a new topic.
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I'd heard some time ago that for the scene with Jake and Heath jumping off a cliff naked into the river that Jake G had a double do it, while Heath did it himself. On the DVD you can clearly see it's not Jake, though the camera does cut off his character after a brief view and a greater focus on Heath jumping.
Has anyone heard why Jake didn't do this scene from a reliable source? It hardly seems to call for it in terms of risk like the bull riding or bear/Heath bucked off scenes. And Jake certainly was willing to do a nude scene in Jarhead (from the rear), or at least it looks like him there.
Just saw the movie for the third time, and I'm still haunted, torn, inspired and caught up...
Paul
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Jake is reputed to have said that he's afraid of heights.
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Wow really? Well thanks for letting us know! I was wondering also why he didn't do that scene.
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newbie on this thread but this is on my mind, so Hi..
and here goes..
This scene has Jack and Ennis at creek. Ennis is washing dishes. I can't believe the amazing acting on Jake's part when Ennis asks him if he ever feels that people know when they look at him as he walks around town...or can he tell if anyone is suspicious about them and what they are doing. I can't remember the exact words. I was overcome at first that Ennis would ask Jack...Jack ...this question. I may be wording this wrong but he's asking Jack his personal take on whether he thinks anyone can tell if they are having sex. They are both lovers for years and surely by now Ennis can tell that Jack could care less about what people think.
It's as if Ennis chooses not to be in Jack's world...period. Jack gives him this look...I can't describe it... as if he can't quite believe Ennis is asking him that question. He is cool, but his eyes, when he looks at Ennis say "and you just asked me this question for what?"
I find this scene--Jake's glance at Ennis as he asks this question--somewhat similar to the look that Ennis gave Alma when she asked him, "what about my job?" after he told her he had to go to work immediately.
NO words were necessary because Ennis's look says, now please, your job... or worse.
Sometimes Ennis's behavior, words and deeds were unbelievable....but I luv him anyway.
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I haven't read this entire thread so If I am repetitive please forgive.
All scenes involving Jack and his wife show thoughtful consideration towards her by Jack .
A touch on her shoulder as he walks past her after he turns off the television, a peck on the lips when he leaves to meet Ennis ...asking her where his clothes are located.
Even though he wanted to leave Lureen, and would have in a NY minute if Ennis had said yes, he wasn't completely cold and unfeeling towards her.
Ennis is v.v.v.v cold towards his wife in all scenes after the reunion scene. When she asks if he forgot something, he comes back in, gets his tackle box and leaves...not even a peck on the cheek. Ennis is never again affectionate with Alma, not in any scenes that I remember, after their reunion.
sass
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Wow really? Well thanks for letting us know! I was wondering also why he didn't do that scene.
I thought they both used stand-ins for that cliff-jumping bit.
Isn't there an insurance concern when actors do things that should be done by stunt men? To say nothing of the concern about a broken leg in the middle of shooting?
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I haven't read this entire thread so If I am repetitive please forgive.
All scenes involving Jack and his wife show thoughtful consideration towards her by Jack .
A touch on her shoulder as he walks past her after he turns off the television, a peck on the lips when he leaves to meet Ennis ...asking her where his clothes are located.
Even though he wanted to leave Lureen, and would have in a NY minute if Ennis had said yes, he wasn't completely cold and unfeeling towards her.
Ennis is v.v.v.v cold towards his wife in all scenes after the reunion scene. When she asks if he forgot something, he comes back in, gets his tackle box and leaves...not even a peck on the cheek. Ennis is never again affectionate with Alma, not in any scenes that I remember, after their reunion.
sass
I'm sure we are OT here but ..
IMO after the reunion kiss their relationship could never be the same. Alma loved Ennis but what she had witnessed couldn't let her go on being affectionate and go on showing love to Ennis. Maybe at the beginning she could bear it but sooner or later the disappointment and the lack of love she felt from Ennis (and she could sensed it because she knew everything about him and Jack) would lead them end up divorcing. On the other hand Jack and Lureen's relationship continued to be the way you described it above just because Lureen didn't know anything. They continued to live a seemingly good life just because Lureen didn't know anything. If she knew s'thing (like Alma) then maybe their relationship would have the same end.
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I haven't read this entire thread so If I am repetitive please forgive.
All scenes involving Jack and his wife show thoughtful consideration towards her by Jack .
A touch on her shoulder as he walks past her after he turns off the television, a peck on the lips when he leaves to meet Ennis ...asking her where his clothes are located.
Even though he wanted to leave Lureen, and would have in a NY minute if Ennis had said yes, he wasn't completely cold and unfeeling towards her.
Ennis is v.v.v.v cold towards his wife in all scenes after the reunion scene. When she asks if he forgot something, he comes back in, gets his tackle box and leaves...not even a peck on the cheek. Ennis is never again affectionate with Alma, not in any scenes that I remember, after their reunion.
According to Diana Ossana, that was the main reason for Jack's marriage having deteriorated but still hanging in there where Ennis' marriage was over after 12 years: that Jack was able to at least give affection and share some time with her where Ennis was not. She considered that more important than the differences between the two women, although those were significant.
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The Reunion: http://davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=164.0
Scenes with Ennis and Alma OR Jack and Lureen: http://davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=3083.0
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Copied from Dislikes about BBM (yeah, blasphemy, I know), where we were getting off topic.
...she didn't yet know that she would win custody of her kids...
Timeframe again. In 1975, in conservative Wyoming, a woman have to be turning tricks in front of the kids for her to lose custody to the husband. Even then, he'd have to really fight for it.
We've got an interesting set of conflicting views here, glassrobot. Since I'm 56, I can remember these times and what things were like back then. On the other hand, at 24, you're just about the age Alma was when she saw Jack and Ennis embracing, so that gives you the advantage.
And how did Ennis get invited to Thanksgiving anyway? Either Alma invited him herself, asking permission from Monroe, of course, or the kids asked for him. Maybe Alma said no to that, giving the excuse that Monroe wouldn't care for it, and then the girls asked Monroe and he--to Alma's disgust and dismay--said sure go ahead and invite him. What do you think, glassrobot, Sandy, PALeben?
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Wow really? Well thanks for letting us know! I was wondering also why he didn't do that scene.
I thought they both used stand-ins for that cliff-jumping bit.
Isn't there an insurance concern when actors do things that should be done by stunt men? To say nothing of the concern about a broken leg in the middle of shooting?
Only Jake used a stand-in. I've seen the close-up; that was very much Heath Ledger-I mean, VERY MUCH.....
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We've got an interesting set of conflicting views here, glassrobot. Since I'm 56, I can remember these times and what things were like back then. On the other hand, at 24, you're just about the age Alma was when she saw Jack and Ennis embracing, so that gives you the advantage.
Well, I just know how the mind of a vindictive young female works ;) Being one myself. Hah. Just kidding. Err, sort of.
And how did Ennis get invited to Thanksgiving anyway? Either Alma invited him herself, asking permission from Monroe, of course, or the kids asked for him. Maybe Alma said no to that, giving the excuse that Monroe wouldn't care for it, and then the girls asked Monroe and he--to Alma's disgust and dismay--said sure go ahead and invite him.
I think that's probably very likely. Monroe doesn't seem like he cares one way or the other about Ennis. Or anything else, come to think of it....
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If there was gaydar/cruising going on in the dance hall, Jacks reaction would have been more enthusiastic than surprised.
When Randall and Jack's eyes first meet while sitting at the table with the ladies, do you catch the "sparkle" in each others eyes? It lasts a little more than a few seconds. But it tells the story....
Caught that one!! Think you're right there. It didn't last but for a quick glance, but that was enough. Probably enough to instigate the invitation to go fishin' while Randall and Jack were sitting of the bench waiting for their wives.
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newbie on this thread but this is on my mind, so Hi..
and here goes..
This scene has Jack and Ennis at creek. Ennis is washing dishes. I can't believe the amazing acting on Jake's part when Ennis asks him if he ever feels that people know when they look at him as he walks around town...or can he tell if anyone is suspicious about them and what they are doing. I can't remember the exact words. I was overcome at first that Ennis would ask Jack...Jack ...this question. I may be wording this wrong but he's asking Jack his personal take on whether he thinks anyone can tell if they are having sex. They are both lovers for years and surely by now Ennis can tell that Jack could care less about what people think.
It's as if Ennis chooses not to be in Jack's world...period. Jack gives him this look...I can't describe it... as if he can't quite believe Ennis is asking him that question. He is cool, but his eyes, when he looks at Ennis say "and you just asked me this question for what?"
I find this scene--Jake's glance at Ennis as he asks this question--somewhat similar to the look that Ennis gave Alma when she asked him, "what about my job?" after he told her he had to go to work immediately.
NO words were necessary because Ennis's look says, now please, your job... or worse.
Sometimes Ennis's behavior, words and deeds were unbelievable....but I luv him anyway.
Wow, Rnmina, good eye for detail. and welcome!
I agree; Jake G's acting in that scene is so subtle, yet so telling.
I see Jack has having grown, emotionally, light years ahead of Ennis. Ennis is barely past a teenager in this scene. As someone-forgive me, friends, I don't recall who-stated, Ennis was frozen in time at 19, on BBM (Hello out there? please show yourself if this was your quote....you deserve credit.)
Also: My take is that Ennis is coming around to the realization-conscious realization-that he is "queer", and his verbalizing his question to Jack, to me, was his version of testing the waters. Jack was not only the love of his life, he was his best, and possibly only, true friend.
I didn't read that exactly as he was asking Jack if he thought people could tell about Jack and him; I think he was trying to tell Jack about his fears, ie, can they tell I am queer?
And more importantly, as your post pointed out, Jack is smart and subtle enough to read this, but also to conceal this from Ennis. I also think Ennis made him think about whether or not Lureen "suspects". Jack shakes his head "no", but then seems to think better of it, in a kind of double-take. did you notice that?
Just an observation there.
Thanks for pointing out the reason someone saw fit to gave Jake G a top award (BAFTA); he really did exceptionally realistic, highly intelligent work in this flick.
He is a true superstar.
....and don't even get me started on Heath! I mean even I can imitate Truman Capote; but how many of us could do what Heath did, eh?? ;)
Welcome!
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Has anyone else seen the PPV advert for BBM - the last shot shows Ennis and Jack in the truck together - Jack is driving, Ennis is to the viewer and Ennis is appears to be looking in his rear view mirror with a look of... I dunno, guilt? anguish? It's so fleeting I can't capture it. I don't remember seeing that in the movie at any time -
Anyone have an idea what this is about? An outtake? Were they leaving the house at 1st reunion?
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I believe this shot was also included in the trailer. It has been noted that the scene in the movie where Ennis leaves the girls with Alma in the condiments aisle was originally a preface to Ennis running off to meet Jack on short notice, and got changed in the editing process. I could be wrong, but I think the shot you're referring to would have taken place just after that scene when Ennis has just lied to Alma about why he has to run off so suddenly.
Des
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Des - ahhh, that makes some sense. I always thought the grocery store departure scene had little to do with work and alot more to do with Jack. I wish we could see all the scenes ever shot - I can't get enough! :)
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Howdy, new guy here.
I'm wondering if anyone else has noticed the type of pickup truck Jack and Ennis drive through the years.
At first meeting Jack has a old black GMC pickup.
When Ennis starts life with Alma- he now has a (later model) black GMC pickup truck.
As Jack and Ennis reunite 4 years later, Jack now drives a two-tone (red and white) Ford pickup.
It takes a while, but as we move to the 70's, Ennis brings the horses in a (drumroll please) ....two tone (blue and white) Ford pickup.
Ennis really doesn't have the money, but he shows his affection for Jack by buying what he buys (even if it is a few years later).
It kind of reminded me of my buddy, years ago we almost bought matching Oldsmobiles ;)
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Hey ottomun, thanks for your observations. It has also been noted that in the scene where Alma storms off to work and Ennis offers the girls a push on the swing, he is seen wearing a vest similar to one Jack wore during the reunion. I think there are other instances of this, but they're not coming to mind at the moment!
Anyway, thanks again and welcome to the forum.
Des
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Jake roping Ennis scene before leaving the mountain. Is there a discussion anywhere as to why their wrestling around turned so violent? I realize drawing blood was an accident, but up to that it was a real skirmish. I don't understand ....
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Jake roping Ennis scene before leaving the mountain. Is there a discussion anywhere as to why their wrestling around turned so violent? I realize drawing blood was an accident, but up to that it was a real skirmish. I don't understand ....
In the story, Ennis explains that reaction to being attacked...it's a throwback to his childhood when his brother used to beat up on him...this isn't real clear I know...but it is explained in the story. Also, it might be partly attributed to his frustration at having to leave the mountain - and how he vents that in the fight.
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Jake roping Ennis scene before leaving the mountain. Is there a discussion anywhere as to why their wrestling around turned so violent? I realize drawing blood was an accident, but up to that it was a real skirmish. I don't understand ....
In the story, Ennis explains that reaction to being attacked...it's a throwback to his childhood when his brother used to beat up on him...this isn't real clear I know...but it is explained in the story. Also, it might be partly attributed to his frustration at having to leave the mountain - and how he vents that in the fight.
danac - ahhh, ok. I was reading it as more of a denial - or fear.
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Jake roping Ennis scene before leaving the mountain. Is there a discussion anywhere as to why their wrestling around turned so violent? I realize drawing blood was an accident, but up to that it was a real skirmish. I don't understand ....
Frustration, denial, fear. He's angry and he's angry because he's angry. And he encourages that anger because he wants to suppress the grief and loss he feels. I've said this before, if you watch it in slow motion, his expressions as much like grief as anger.
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I believe this shot was also included in the trailer. It has been noted that the scene in the movie where Ennis leaves the girls with Alma in the condiments aisle was originally a preface to Ennis running off to meet Jack on short notice, and got changed in the editing process. I could be wrong, but I think the shot you're referring to would have taken place just after that scene when Ennis has just lied to Alma about why he has to run off so suddenly.
Des
except this scene would have made sense that way if it occurred after their reunion and before it. In fact, it would have been charming. As it is, he was telling the truth - he had to go to work *S
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Jake roping Ennis scene before leaving the mountain. Is there a discussion anywhere as to why their wrestling around turned so violent? I realize drawing blood was an accident, but up to that it was a real skirmish. I don't understand ....
Not everyone agrees, but in the book it looks as if the accident happened during sex - so it was passion up that point rather than violence. I do think it would have been better if it had been sex rather than fighting in the film - it's more in character and makes more sense.
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Jake roping Ennis scene before leaving the mountain. Is there a discussion anywhere as to why their wrestling around turned so violent? I realize drawing blood was an accident, but up to that it was a real skirmish. I don't understand ....
Not everyone agrees, but in the book it looks as if the accident happened during sex - so it was passion up that point rather than violence. I do think it would have been better if it had been sex rather than fighting in the film - it's more in character and makes more sense.
I don't see the indication in the short story that Jack's bruise happened during sex.
But that's my take.
Maybe Proulx was leaving it up to the reader's interpretation.
In fact, I get the feeling, that it happened more or less the way it is depicted in the film.
It doesn't surprise me that Jack and Ennis fight in this exact way. And actually, it doesn't seem much of a fight at all. More one of those 'who's in control' kind of male skirmishes. (This is, of course, a female observer's point of view.)
In fact, the whole thing looks to me like nothing more than two young men (who have unwittingly fallen in love and can't bring themselves to deal with that weighty fact) who are abruptly forced to end what has been the most significant summer in their lives and the testosterone levels just kind of overflow.
Don't forget that they were looking forward to another month together on Brokeback, then out of the blue, it is taken away from them. And, ( a BIG and...) they're helpless to do anything about it.
It is this helplessness that Ennis, especially, is feeling and which he hadn't expected to feel that has caused the eruption. He must lash out at something, anything, to pacify the need he has to make sense of the insensible. Imagine the incredibly painful emotion he must be dealing with. Totally alien for a guy who doesn't know anything about 'emotion.'
He lashes out.
Jack is the nearest thing.
These are, after all, two mostly inarticulate guys who don't spend a lot of time dealing with their 'feelings.' I've said this before and I'll say it again, Jack and Ennis are like two young stallions at the height of their, for want of a better word, 'randiness' and here, suddenly, they're forced to check, rather than play through.
Oh gosh, what a random mixing of sport and animal metaphors, but you know what I mean.
Ennis is lashing out.
No question in my mind.
Perhaps he thinks that Jack is making light of the whole thing by lassoing him in a playful way.
Jack IS being playful. Probably because he figures this is the best way to handle an Ennis who seems to have sunk into a blue funk. Plus he's also trying to deal with his own heartbreak, almost forced to make light of it himself, since, at the same time, even this early in their fledgling relationship, he knows he can't smother Ennis. He wants to give him enough rope, I suppose....maybe hoping against hope that Ennis won't leave him, but knowing, he will. (Later, the taking of Ennis's shirt as a memory proves this.)
Perhaps Ennis thinks that Jack is, in some way, trying to get the upper hand by subduing him.
Obviously he doesn't quite understand that Jack's heart is breaking as well.
Perhaps he's just furious that he'll have to leave Jack and has no way to express himself except by
acting out.
In the short story, as Ennis is riding down the mountain, he feels as if his world has spun out of control.
(Or words to that effect.)
Jack, on the other hand, seems in more of a defensive posture. Except for the knee to Ennis's nose, which almost looks accidental.
Jack, I'll bet, understands exactly what's going on with Ennis since he probably feels the same thing.
They're both anticipating 'loss.'
A 'loss' neither of them had probably given much thought to while ensconced on the mountain.
Ennis just has a more 'brutal' way of handling it.
(Remember the way his brother abused him and Ennis's eventual retaliation. This is the 'language' he was taught.)
At that exact moment, Jack would've probably allowed Ennis to make love to him right there in that field if he'd wanted to.
Even if that would've delayed their trek down the mountain.
Once he began comforting Ennis after the nosebleed, he opens to Ennis.
But Ennis, of course, can't face any comforting at that point.
He must lash out.
His 'masculinity' has been affronted.
This is something that is always front and foremost with Ennis.
His need to assert his masculinity.
It would surprise me if Jack doesn't 'get' the point of this lesson.
And, being Jack, accepts it without retaliation.
I also agree with someone on one of the threads who posted that Jack's posture as he falls to the ground, wounded, is one of utter defeat, but in more ways than one. I believe that this 'defeat' is brought on, not so much by the punch, as the whole idea suddenly 'hitting' him that he will probably not see Ennis again once they come down from the mountain. At that exact moment, perhaps, the truth has 'hit' both of them.
In my opinion, Jack knew they were going to go their separate ways once they'd been paid off. If they thought about it at all in any realistic way, these two were not making plans for the future. There's no indication of that. The tentative nature of their talk by the side of Jack's truck, is, just that, tentative. As if they'd never mentioned it to each other before. It is mostly a kind of 'grabbing at straws' kind of thing.
Cruel and deadly and very tentative.
Excrutiating to watch.
But that's probably a discussion for the Jack and Ennis Relationship thread.
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Jake roping Ennis scene before leaving the mountain. Is there a discussion anywhere as to why their wrestling around turned so violent? I realize drawing blood was an accident, but up to that it was a real skirmish. I don't understand ....
Not everyone agrees, but in the book it looks as if the accident happened during sex - so it was passion up that point rather than violence. I do think it would have been better if it had been sex rather than fighting in the film - it's more in character and makes more sense.
I don't see the indication in the short story that Jack's bruise happened during sex.
But that's my take.
Maybe Proulx was leaving it up to the reader's interpretation.
In fact, I get the feeling, that it happened more or less the way it is depicted in the film.
Another poster explained this much better than I can. In the book the description of their life on the mountain after the FNIT is about the sex - quick rough, etc. There's no mention of them play fighting or wrestling before or after the FNIT or at any other time. When Ennis finds the shirts, it's revealed that the blood was shed 'on the last afternoon on the mountain when Jack, in their contortionist grappling and wrestling, had slammed Ennis's nose hard with his knee'. I know what contortionist grappling and wrestling sounds like to me, and I think that's what we're meant to think.
It also fits much better - Ennis's shock at feeling pain and seeing blood during sex with a man would certainly raise some very mixed feelings in him, and be enough to make him lash out.
In the film they had them play fighting, which gives a slightly different meaning to Ennis's punch.
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rosewood, here's a link over to a post on the photocaption thread that goes with your post.
http://davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=323.msg284943#msg284943
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Jake roping Ennis scene before leaving the mountain. Is there a discussion anywhere as to why their wrestling around turned so violent? I realize drawing blood was an accident, but up to that it was a real skirmish. I don't understand ....
Not everyone agrees, but in the book it looks as if the accident happened during sex - so it was passion up that point rather than violence. I do think it would have been better if it had been sex rather than fighting in the film - it's more in character and makes more sense.
I don't see the indication in the short story that Jack's bruise happened during sex.
But that's my take.
Maybe Proulx was leaving it up to the reader's interpretation.
In fact, I get the feeling, that it happened more or less the way it is depicted in the film.
Another poster explained this much better than I can. In the book the description of their life on the mountain after the FNIT is about the sex - quick rough, etc. There's no mention of them play fighting or wrestling before or after the FNIT or at any other time. When Ennis finds the shirts, it's revealed that the blood was shed 'on the last afternoon on the mountain when Jack, in their contortionist grappling and wrestling, had slammed Ennis's nose hard with his knee'. I know what contortionist grappling and wrestling sounds like to me, and I think that's what we're meant to think.
It also fits much better - Ennis's shock at feeling pain and seeing blood during sex with a man would certainly raise some very mixed feelings in him, and be enough to make him lash out.
In the film they had them play fighting, which gives a slightly different meaning to Ennis's punch.
With all due respect,
I stick by my interpretation.
This is what I saw.
The film must be judged by what's in the film. (And possibly, now and again, by what's left out.)
Though I do go back in memory to the short story, the fight in the film is made more important by the mere fact of showing it to us in such vivid detail.
I still say that the 'fight' in the film is a protest.
There's more there than mere 'grappling and wrestling.'
Blood would not shock Ennis.
The idea that Jack's hit is the cause of the blood would.
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I still say that the 'fight' in the film is a protest.
There's more there than mere 'grappling and wrestling.'
Blood would not shock Ennis.
The idea that Jack's hit is the cause of the blood would.
Rosewood - I have no argument about it not being sex in the film - I didn't see sex there either. But in the book - I do.
The pain and bloodshed during sex WOULD shock Ennis, I think. Connecting being with a man, sex with a man, to blood and pain, is too close to what he saw as a child.
At that point, it's almost as if he's in Earl's position, and has no choice but to get in first and defend himself - it's subconscious.
The film is completely different, I agree.
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First saw BBM two weeks ago, can't get it out of my head. Completely depressed for the first several days, then found this forum. I can't believe the level of discourse here - simply amazing! Anyway, after lokking (lurking) through the threads for the last week, I needed to add my own two cents.
In the Ennis / Alma Thanksgiving scene, I'm ok until Ennis grabs Alma, and she gives that tortured cry.
It's what I hear in my dreams.
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Hi, Shattered, and welcome to the group. We're all shattered too. When people ask me what I thought of the movie, I tell them "It wrings you out and hangs you up to dry."
Yeah, that's a pretty intense moment.
Looking forward to you adding your insights to our large collection!
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First saw BBM two weeks ago, can't get it out of my head. Completely depressed for the first several days, then found this forum. I can't believe the level of discourse here - simply amazing! Anyway, after lokking (lurking) through the threads for the last week, I needed to add my own two cents.
In the Ennis / Alma Thanksgiving scene, I'm ok until Ennis grabs Alma, and she gives that tortured cry.
It's what I hear in my dreams.
Don`t worry Shattered. It all starts to feel a bit better after several mionths have elapsed.
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Hello!
Hope I don't crash your latest discussion; I'm new on this thread (Hello to everybody from the dark, almost-midnight Germany) and wondering wheter you have already discussed the Jack-visits-Ennis-after-divorce scene?
I just love this scene although its so sad and heartbreaking - it's because of Jake and the way he acts, I guess.
I always get weak in the knees when Jack jumps out of his car, hugs Ennis and then, only for a second or so, places his hand tenderly on Ennis neck, smiling gently into Ennis' face.
Damn, I love that! So much subtle tenderness and so fantastically acted by Jake Gyllenhaal. This little gesture always hurts when you watch it, especially when Ennis shoves Jack's hand off again (booh!but of corse, it's Ennis)
And then Jack's/Jake's eyes when Ennis tries to stammer an execution: At first there is still a light that seems to be shining from the depths ofhis eyes, full of warmth and deep love and joy and excitement and Jack's usual gentleness, and then it's like doors shutting themselves, the shine starts fading away and a few seconds later, there is nothing but pure disappointment and emptiness.
Man, what a fantastic acting!!! I still don't see the point in awarding the supporting actor oscar to George Clooney, I do like him but he would never be able to create such incredible moments by the mere use of his eyes. This scene is simply magic, I have never seen something like this by any other actor before - Jake, thumps up, you little genius!!!
This scene is so cruel. I could hardly stop myself yelling "Ennis you f***ing idiot with your ridiculous self-loathing, you don't deserve the love of this man, why are you such an asshole?!" >:(
I actually feel very sympathetic with Ennis, but in this scene I could hit him to the ground....
Anyone else feeling similarly?
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Oh Jasmin, I feel so bad for both of them in that scene...The way Ennis won't look at Jack as he drives away...poor Jack...I am still hoping that the next time I watch Ennis will say Ok come on in...LOL...but durn it every time I watch he does the SAME thing!!!
AARRGGHH...like I said poor Jack...when I first saw the movie I wasn't overly impressed with Jake's acting but after seeing it again I can see how great an actor he is...
Did you see my post in the other thread?
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It was funny but the first time I watched all I really saw was Ennis...it took a couple of showing s to really get the movie...and it still moves me so much...
I love how Jake can change his appearance back and forth...his expressions...he said in an interview that he had trouble being so open and vulnerable...and he said he succeeded for just seconds at a time...I think he did a lot better than he realizes...
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It was funny but the first time I watched all I really saw was Ennis...it took a couple of showing s to really get the movie...and it still moves me so much...
I love how Jake can change his appearance back and forth...his expressions...he said in an interview that he had trouble being so open and vulnerable...and he said he succeeded for just seconds at a time...I think he did a lot better than he realizes...
Indeed! In Germany we would say "he puts his candle under the bucket", which means he makes himself smaller than he is... Yeah he is sooo great. I like the subtleness of his acting in this movie - of course subtleness can cause problems, people might overlook you because they don't watch properly anymore, being used to eye-catching explosions and outbursts (just like Ennis' ;)) I'm so glad the people finally got that (regarding Bafta etc.) --> Shower him !!!
Heath has the more eye-catching role, that's his advantage. But he,too, is superb. He would have deserved the Oscar like Jake (and Michelle, of course!)
Dear Heath-Fans, I'm not discrediting your Honey, I think he's very gifted (but I hope he will choose better roles in future, no more "Sin eater"Stuff please; otherwise he would
"put his candle under the bucket")
LOL It's almost midnight. I better get going now, but I'll be back tomorrow. Have a nice day while I'm sleeping ;D
P.S.: Does the word "subtleness" exist btw? Or is it "subtlety" ? F**ck it, you know what I mean, and if not, you may slap me verbally. Have fun! :D
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Hi, Jazzwoman! Yes, that's a scene that IMO deserves more attention than it's been getting lately. If you watch it in slow motion, the body language just jumps off the screen at you, it's that powerful. And--although you feel it, only in slow motion do you see the utterly heartbreaking change in Jack's expression as he turns away from Ennis back to his truck--how close he is to breaking down right then and there--and brings his hand up to try to hide his emotion.
Subtlety is the most commonly used, but subtleness is also a real word, so you're okay whichever you choose!
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Hi,
I thought I'll join this thread, too.
It's already mentioned a few times, I know, but it gotta be repeated how great the Thanksgiving scene at Jack's and Lureen's
is. I just love Jack's outburst and the way he shows his father-in-law who is the stud duck . I also love the symbol of the turkey lying in front of them on the table: Stabbed like L.D., if you ask me.
So enjoyed it, there are so many people whom I'd like to say the same things; a really true scene we go here.
I mean that was HIGH-CLASS entertainment! The audience giggled and cheered when Jack/Jake started to yell at him. Ahhh. it's been so satisfying.... More of that!
The other Thanksgiving Scene is also part of my various BBM faves, though in another way; I really had tears in my eyes when Ennis seized Alma's wrist and mumbled threaths in her direction. The look on his face is so full of despair. It's one of Heaths best scenes. I think, I had to swallow in order not to cry. And then Michelle's voice!
Man, I've never heard somebody shriek like this, it's an absolutely terrifying sound. Briiliantly acted!
What I'm still wondering is: Did Ennis loose control because he could not stand the thought that Alma knew anything abouthim and Jack or was it because of Alma entitling Jack "Jack nasty".
I think if it's the latter,it shows the depth of Ennis' love for Jack; he even hurts his own ex-wife, the mother of his beloved children, because she dared to insult his love.
What do you think?
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I think he completely freaked out because for the first time someone had confronted him with the suggestion they had knowledge of his having sex with another man. Up until that point he had been able to maintain a level of denial that no one else knew or suspected, and Alma's words had the effect of shattering this illusion. He was so full of self-loathing at this revelation that he immediately went out and allowed himself to be beaten to a pulp, no resistance. And on the next fishing trip, we see him ask Jack if he thinks Lurren ever suspects, and goes on to say he wonders if people on the street "know" about him. We never see him say anything like this prior to Thanksgiving in the kitchen with Alma, which I think represents a huge moment in the sad journey of Ennis.
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Yeah, Des, but if you'll notice, Ennis doesn't let himself get violent until Alma says, "Jack Twist...Jack Nasty."
That's when he grabs her.
Sure, fear and self loathing are never far from the surface in Ennis.
But his emotions concerning Jack, seemingly, aren't buried all that deep either, if he can so completely lose control of himself in such a situation.
I think both the notion that Alma knew AND that she dares insult Jack are at work in this powerful scene. To tell the truth, I get the impression that Ennis doesn't like anyone else even saying Jack Twist's name. (He may have a reverence for the sound of the name. Why I say this, I don't know. It's just my own notion.) I think that there may be some kind of strange jealousy going on as well.
Jack is his. And only his.
His love. (Although we know that Ennis doesn't call it that.)
His secret to keep.
His hurt to fan.
Jack is the part of Ennis's life that Ennis has trained himself to keep to and FOR himself.
He's walked about in disguise for years, and now here is this woman whose opinion shouldn't really matter anymore, ripping that disguise away. AND what's worse, in some wierd way, she seems to be blaming Jack.
In that moment, Ennis is so exposed and so helpless, he can't even protect Jack from insult.
All he can do is lash out.
To me, this argument is the absolute last straw between Ennis and Alma.
I think he hates her then, where before, and in the years following their divorce, she was probably just an annoying encumbrance.
After all, illusion is what sustains Ennis.
Hey, it's what keeps a lot of us going.
You make a good point about his going out afterward and 'letting' himself be beaten up as a kind of punishment. This is a very angry, very unhappy, self-deluded man. He thinks he deserves punishment for so many things.
Not the least of which is screwing up his life.
But you know, I don't remember seeing this side of Ennis anywhere else in the movie. This need to ALLOW himself to be punished, I mean.
I would think that on that night, he'd be more inclined to try and fight the whole world. He's out of control.
(And lucky he doesn't get himself killed.) The kind of man he is, it may just be that he wants to break something, anything, to fuel his outrage.
And he just picks on the wrong something to want to break.
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Yeah, Des, but if you'll notice, Ennis doesn't let himself get violent until Alma says, "Jack Twist...Jack Nasty."
That's when he grabs her.
....
I think both the notion that Alma knew AND that she dares insult Jack are at work in this powerful scene.
Yes, exactly my impressions. Michelle does a rather brilliant job of putting just enough venom into her words and hit a nerve spot on. He was breathing heavily and looked ready to either run or collapse while she was digging the talons into him, but when she starts on Jack, he springs into action.
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But she doesn't end by saying "Jack Nasty". The last thing she says before he grabs her is "You wasn't going up there to fish." Obviously Ennis was angered by the reference to Jack Nasty, but that's not what drove him to threaten violence, or to submit to being pummeled later, IMHO. It was being outed.
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I love how Jake can change his appearance back and forth...his expressions...he said in an interview that he had trouble being so open and vulnerable...and he said he succeeded for just seconds at a time...I think he did a lot better than he realizes...
Another excellent example of Jake changing his facial expression is when he saw Ennis returning to camp after the bear encounter. His face first showed relief (that Ennis is safe and sound) and he smiled a bit as he screwed the cap back on the whiskey bottle. His hat then momentarily hid his eyes as Jack dropped the bottle, and a split second later, he pretended to be angry, complaining about being hungry and finding only beans. A moment which I enjoyed watching every time.
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But she doesn't end by saying "Jack Nasty". The last thing she says before he grabs her is "You wasn't going up there to fish." Obviously Ennis was angered by the reference to Jack Nasty, but that's not what drove him to threaten violence, or to submit to being pummeled later, IMHO. It was being outed.
It's true that it wasn't the last line, but let's face it - he was outed as soon as she started that fishing-line story.
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It's true that it wasn't the last line, but let's face it - he was outed as soon as she started that fishing-line story.
To be fair, he was outed at the reunion kiss :).
I agree with Desperadum though - it's the 'accusation' that he's gay that pushes his buttons - he's not just defending Jack.
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Another excellent example of Jake changing his facial expression is when he saw Ennis returning to camp after the bear encounter. His face first showed relief (that Ennis is safe and sound) and he smiled a bit as he screwed the cap back on the whiskey bottle. His hat then momentarily hid his eyes as Jack dropped the bottle, and a split second later, he pretended to be angry, complaining about being hungry and finding only beans. A moment which I enjoyed watching every time.
Hi Stan!
Thank you for reminding me of that scene, I hadn't thought about that for a long time. You are right, it is a scene that makes you chuckle a bit!
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OHG. Have you seen the movie?
Chill out. I may or may not agree with everything he said (my pessimist side and optimist side are having a barbed-club fight right now) but it's his take on their situation. No need to get high and mighty or idignant when someone doesn't see things the way you do.
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There is another detail I hadn't spotted during my five viewings in the theater, but during my first viewing at home :o
It's the connection between the scene where Alma hides one of Jack's postcards inside the newspaper and the next scene, in which Jack is desperately looking for his parka. When Alma places the paper on the kitchen table you can see an advertisement of a supermarket declaring some products. One of these products is honey (the word is quite in the middle of the advertisement). And then the next thing you can hear is Jack adressing Lureen by saying "Honey?"
I giggled when I noticed that, my friend whom I was watching the film with thought I had gone mad 8)
What an inventive idea to forge a connection between this two scenes, or I'd better say, between the two lives of the Del Mars and the Twists.Almost as elegant as the moment in BBM we first see Ennis taking Alma from behind, closely followed by Jack riding his bull.
;D Ang Lee , I love you!
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I'm wondering why Alma let Ennis see that second postcard. She could have easily tossed it.
Or did I miss something?
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I'm wondering why Alma let Ennis see that second postcard. She could have easily tossed it.
Or did I miss something?
She could have done, but I don't think she was that sort of person. Funnily enough, I can't see myself throwing away a partner's private mail either - I don't know if I could bring myself to do it. I like to think that I would confront the person though. Maybe Alma should have done - but I don't think she'd have gained anything. Possibly an aggressive reaction from Ennis, complete denial and making it clear that Jack wasn't to be mentioned again.
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I'm wondering why Alma let Ennis see that second postcard. She could have easily tossed it.
Or did I miss something?
She could have done, but I don't think she was that sort of person. Funnily enough, I can't see myself throwing away a partner's private mail either - I don't know if I could bring myself to do it. I like to think that I would confront the person though. Maybe Alma should have done - but I don't think she'd have gained anything. Possibly an aggressive reaction from Ennis, complete denial and making it clear that Jack wasn't to be mentioned again.
Hi Des! or it would have screwed up the storyline? :)
I agree with the possibility she might have been afraid of an aggressive reaction from Enis.
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2nd postcard - Why didn't Alma throw it away?
Probably because she knew it wouldn't do any good. We've already learned that she's not the act-first-think-later type. She's proved that first when she witnesses the reunion kiss, and again when she lets Ennis go on the first fishing trip with no more than a question about how it will affect his job, and then again when she (apparently) didn't confront him upon his return. So when she sees the postcard (which we call the second postcard because it's the second one we've seen, although it may be the third or the tenth in actuality), she won't impulsively toss it in the trash. She's thought it through, and she realizes that there's just going to be a follow-up postcard, either from Ennis ("so when are we meeting?") or Jack ("why didn't you show up?"). She's obviously not ready to have a confrontation over this issue, and intercepting messages between the two is sure to lead to that sooner or later.
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I've been thinking about something I see in the scene when Jack, after rushing to Ennis's side after hearing about the divorce and being rebuffed yet again, rushes head long into Mexico.
There he is, kind of stumbling into that crowd, the soft music playing in the background, people milling around him...I'm assuming he's been drinking. Since he looks disoriented. Lost, really.
He heads toward the mouth of the alley, (Possibly he's been there before? Or just heard about this world of availability from someone somewhere?) where men of various persuasions are on matter-of-fact display against that long dark wall. Jack walks softly, a bit hesitatingly, looking, looking for someone to take Ennis's place for that one night. It is so painful to watch.
And if you look closely, you see fear in his eyes.
Fear and resignation.
I don't see any kind of confidence at all.
So I do wonder again, in that moment, if he's EVER done this before.
When he stops before the guy who then says, "...senor?" (A tall, thinnish guy who could, I suppose, with Jack's eyes closed, pass for Ennis.) nods at him, and the guy joins him in his walk into darkness, Jack looks directly at him with a kind of warning, then quickly away. He also looks about him, sideways, checking things out as if not sure whether to expect trouble or not.
For a few seconds, you're frightened for him. This is SUCH a big chance for him to take. So damned dangerous. We can only imagine the torment that drives him to this.
I wonder, over the years, how often Jack takes these kinds of chances.
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Rosewood,
If that is true, than how totally sad. His state of mind must be a true shambles.
True, he caught Ennis off guard, but, Jeez...make some ADJUSTMENTS, Ennis.
When Jack is crying in the truck..OMG, that just does me in, probably as bad as any scene, including the end.
Now Jack knows, all of Ennis' excuses about his life in Riverton are actually hiding the real reason for him not committing. So, Jack carried that around for a good five years, it appears, before he finally exploded.
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Rosewood,
If that is true, than how totally sad. His state of mind must be a true shambles.
True, he caught Ennis off guard, but, Jeez...make some ADJUSTMENTS, Ennis.
When Jack is crying in the truck..OMG, that just does me in, probably as bad as any scene, including the end.
Now Jack knows, all of Ennis' excuses about his life in Riverton are actually hiding the real reason for him not committing. So, Jack carried that around for a good five years, it appears, before he finally exploded.
Yes, that divorce scene is one I can't watch very often. (in fact, this is one of the scenes I've seen the least of. I just can't handle it.)
It is just too goddamed painful.
Poor Jack.
Poor heartbroken Jack.
The scene of him crying in the truck........Jeez.
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Hi folks,
I'm new here and haven't had a chance to read all the posts so I'm not sure if this has been discussed yet, but I have a question I'd like to throw out.
AP's story makes it clear that Ennis had only phoned Jack's home number twice; the second, of course, is after Jack is dead, but the first time was to tell Jack about his divorce. As a matter of fact, it seems that this was the only telephone conversation they ever had. All other communication was by postcard. This was changed in the film as well. In the film, when Jack shows up after the divorce, he says "I got your card about the divorce... ."
So I guess the question is, in the 20 years of their relationship, why would it have been so important for Ennis to have actually called Jack on the phone about the divorce? One reason, of course, is that Ennis didn't have a phone. Notice that in the film he calls Lureen from a payphone, although AP doesn't specify where Ennis called from in the short story. But, that's probably a little too simple.
Any thoughts from the BBM scholars about what AP may have been thinking here? Thanks!
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this "misinterpretation" by Jack regarding Ennis' phone call about the divorce certainly seems to be mixed signals from Ennis...a bit unfair to poor Jack I think...
Not only was it easier for Ennis to tell Jack that his family obligations were the reason they can't live together...but perhaps it was easier for Ennis in his own mind as well...Now that he was divorced, perhaps the call showed Ennis' subconscious desire to reach out and be with Jack, but his fear snapped him back to another excuse to justify staying apart.
It's sad to see Ennis sink deeper internally as he struggles with the fact that he is in love with another man...he started with the wild abandon of the reunion kiss despite being out in the open in town, his actions of the moment being ruled by love...(unfortunately right in front of Alma)..but then he progressively pulls away from Jack in the post-divorce scene at any suggestion of people approaching..then finally his paranoia actively spills out while he and Jack are "safe" at their campsite..with Ennis questioning Jack about stares and whispers on the street.
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He heads toward the mouth of the alley, (Possibly he's been there before? Or just heard about this world of availability from someone somewhere?) where men of various persuasions are on matter-of-fact display against that long dark wall. Jack walks softly, a bit hesitatingly, looking, looking for someone to take Ennis's place for that one night. It is so painful to watch.
And if you look closely, you see fear in his eyes.
Fear and resignation.
I don't see any kind of confidence at all.
So I do wonder again, in that moment, if he's EVER done this before.
I wonder, over the years, how often Jack takes these kinds of chances.
Well i don't think he had done this before at least not in the time he was with Ennis. It would have taken a shock like Ennis rebuffing him after the divorce as to make him drive down to Mexico and seek the arms of a strange man to comfort him. I think Jack never having been to Mexico in the past fits better in terms of stressing the impact that Ennis behaviour had on him. After that i think Jack was driving down to Mexico on regular basis. I think his line " I'm not you - I can't make it with a couple of f**s once or twice a year" in their last meeting together is the proof.
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this "misinterpretation" by Jack regarding Ennis' phone call about the divorce certainly seems to be mixed signals from Ennis...a bit unfair to poor Jack I think...
Yeah, I was wondering if anybody else saw it that way. Since this was the only time that Ennis ever called Jack and with this kind of news, it's no wonder that Jack interpreted the call this way. He felt that Ennis was saying, "Hey c'mon." Just so unfortunate.
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There is another detail I hadn't spotted during my five viewings in the theater, but during my first viewing at home :o
It's the connection between the scene where Alma hides one of Jack's postcards inside the newspaper and the next scene, in which Jack is desperately looking for his parka. When Alma places the paper on the kitchen table you can see an advertisement of a supermarket declaring some products. One of these products is honey (the word is quite in the middle of the advertisement). And then the next thing you can hear is Jack adressing Lureen by saying "Honey?"
I
This is strictly part of the symbolism thread but anyway..... Ennis plays Melissa on the jukebox. Melissa is a honeybee. To me, Jack is Ennis's honeybee who may flit from flower to flower but always brings his sweetness back to Ennis. Check out the song lyrics, they are VERY sad when applied to J&E.
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When he stops before the guy who then says, "...senor?" (A tall, thinnish guy who could, I suppose, with Jack's eyes closed, pass for Ennis.) nods at him, and the guy joins him in his walk into darkness,
Just an interesting aside here. The man who played the hustler was none other than Brokeback Mountain's cinematographer, Rodrigo Prieto. Ang Lee drafted him for the role over Prieto's misgivings. He did have classic Mexican looks, perfect, I think, for the cameo.
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When he stops before the guy who then says, "...senor?" (A tall, thinnish guy who could, I suppose, with Jack's eyes closed, pass for Ennis.) nods at him, and the guy joins him in his walk into darkness,
Just an interesting aside here. The man who played the hustler was none other than Brokeback Mountain's cinematographer, Rodrigo Prieto. Ang Lee drafted him for the role over Prieto's misgivings. He did have classic Mexican looks, perfect, I think, for the cameo.
Darn, I meant to do a photcap on that......thanks for reminding me, T&S!
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So I guess the question is, in the 20 years of their relationship, why would it have been so important for Ennis to have actually called Jack on the phone about the divorce? One reason, of course, is that Ennis didn't have a phone. Notice that in the film he calls Lureen from a payphone, although AP doesn't specify where Ennis called from in the short story. But, that's probably a little too simple.
Any thoughts from the BBM scholars about what AP may have been thinking here? Thanks!
Hey trubroke. This is one of those interesting quirks where the story and film intersect. The entire aborted post-divorce reunion scene is derived from a simple refernce made when Ennis calls Lureen after Jack's death. I don't have the text in front of me, but when he calls her it is mentioned that he had only called once before, to tell Jack about the divorce, which had resulted in a misunderstanding - or some such. Based on everything we "know" I think the screenplay is more believable on this point. The only reason I can speculate that Proulx had Ennis call with this news is perhaps it was a traumatic event for him (it certainly was depicted as such in the movie) and he needed to talk to somebody close about it? Or more specifically to Jack, whose clinch with Ennis as discovered by Alma was the beginning of the end of their marraige? I can only speculate on this point - I'm neither a scholar nor AP mind-reader, but I'm as curious as you and wonder if anyone else has any thoughts.
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Maybe its been mentioned, but would it make sense that Ennis calling Jack, then rebuffing him, is actually a good indication of his internal conflict? Maybe, unconsciously, he wanted Jack near, or perhaps entertained the thought of his new freedom in terms of Jack, and Jack sensed it-but then when faced with the non-Brokeback reality of Jack's real presence, Ennis freaked.
I find it fairly expected that he would at least let Jack know about the divorce; this is them sharing their "separate, and difficult lives" the way they have from the moment they connected.
Just a thought.
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I feel he would just have wanted to hear a friendly voice, to know there was still someone out there who wanted him. I don't know how much a call from a payphone from Wyoming to Texas would have cost then but don't forget Ennis was dirt poor. I recall phone calls in the old days where you spent most of the time talking fast and saying very little. I can see the poor bugger feeding coins in and maybe doing more crying than talking and our impulsive Jack just wanting to get there and help him and be with him, thinking that's what it was all about. The story doesn't say Jack just turned around and shot off. He may have stayed a while, just not quite the lifetime he was hoping for. We can read into this story whatever we want, sometimes.
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Too, I think Bobby was the single casting error made on this film. The kid doesn't sound, or behave, like he's from Texas...he sounds like he's from the Bronx!
There is another casting error, though as a Canadian I ain't complainin' :) And that's the barman who tells Jack about Lureen's father's money. He sounds soooooo
Canadian, I expected him to say "eh?"
Definite casting error - plus there's no way Jack and Lureen would have had such a pudding-faced kid - not even with the stud duck's genes involved!
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I wasn't too charmed by Bobby either. The kid Jack was riding the Versatile combine with looked way cuter, and I always cringe a bit when he says his line about the turkey he's going to have to eat for two weeks (or something like that). I don't like the way he delivers it, it sounds too fake and whiny.
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Well i don't think he had done this before at least not in the time he was with Ennis. It would have taken a shock like Ennis rebuffing him after the divorce as to make him drive down to Mexico and seek the arms of a strange man to comfort him. I think Jack never having been to Mexico in the past fits better in terms of stressing the impact that Ennis behaviour had on him. After that i think Jack was driving down to Mexico on regular basis. I think his line " I'm not you - I can't make it with a couple of f**s once or twice a year" in their last meeting together is the proof.
I agree with this completely - I do not think Jack has been to Mexico, or sought a prostitute's company before this moment. It's something about the way this scene is set up - how he moves, the way he looks, the devastation in his eyes - that tells me that this is a first for him. He's known about Mexico, obviously, but I think something's (or rather: someone) always kept him from actually going there. But his heart got broken, and he needs something to patch it up, even if it's just meaningless sex with a nameless guy. I too see resignation in his eyes when he acknowledges the prostitute's "senor?" The look in his eyes in that moment just slays me - incredible how Jake pulls that off in a scene where he has no lines at all!
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Interesting, though, that he seems to know exactly where to go in Mexico. The film doesn't make it clear if this is a one-off, if he's done it before, or if this is the first time but it becomes a regular occurence from then on.
My impression from the book was that Jack was seeing other guys right the way through. 'Mexico' would have happened after he got out of rodeo and married Lureen, because before then I guess he was too poor to travel or to pay for sex. Maybe later he had the excuse of 'business trips'? In the book, there's nothing to connect Mexico to the divorce scene. Generally I took Mexico as a metaphor for the other men, ALL the other men Jack had been seeing over the years, and not a specific reference to one trip after the divorce.
In the film, I think that stlll applies. It's not all about one incident at a particularly stressful time. So there had to be more going on that just the one trip -wherever the actual location was.
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Interesting, though, that he seems to know exactly where to go in Mexico. The film doesn't make it clear if this is a one-off, if he's done it before, or if this is the first time but it becomes a regular occurence from then on.
My impression from the book was that Jack was seeing other guys right the way through. 'Mexico' would have happened after he got out of rodeo and married Lureen, because before then I guess he was too poor to travel or to pay for sex. Maybe later he had the excuse of 'business trips'? In the book, there's nothing to connect Mexico to the divorce scene. Generally I took Mexico as a metaphor for the other men, ALL the other men Jack had been seeing over the years, and not a specific reference to one trip after the divorce.
In the film, I think that stlll applies. It's not all about one incident at a particularly stressful time. So there had to be more going on that just the one trip -wherever the actual location was.
Yes, I wondered about that. How Jack knew where to go.
But on second, third and fourth thoughts, I imagine, maybe, it might be Juarez.
It wouldn't take much brain power to figure out that any rinky-dink Mexican border town
would have what Jack was looking for.
I imagine for an American, at that time, trying to find a prostitute, wouldn't take
much actual inquiry. Not that Jack would necessarily want to go around asking directions.
He put two and two together and came up with an imitation of Ennis in a dark alley.
The scene where Jack comes rushing up to join Ennis after the divorce 'phone call', is so
utterly devastating. I can't blame Jack for going off to Mexico or wherever. To my eyes,
he is running away from Ennis's unthinking cruelty more than running to or towards anyplace else.
Maybe he's punishing Ennis or even himself by deliberately doing what Ennis would
hate most: Jack having sex with another man.
There is no anticipation of pleasure in Jack's face as he warily stumbles down that dark alley.
There is only pain.
In the short story, Proulx implies that after his marriage, a meaningless job at Lureen's father's
company is fabricated for Jack. (Why he couldn't be given a 'real' productive job, I don't know.
Maybe it is a manifestation of his father-in-law's emnity. A way of keeping his son-in-law in a subservient
and therefore, unmanly position....)
Jack is sent on the road.
He has money and knows how and where to spend it.
From that I assume that prostitutes or just men he meets on his travels, become
recipients of Jack's generosity over the years. (Although I can't think it is an all consuming thing.
He couldn't/wouldn't be that careless.)
Poor Jack.
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After my umpteenth viewing recently I noticed something for the first time......when Jack and Randall are outside waiting for the women. Randall says;'' We ought to go down there some weekend. Drink a little whiskey, fish some. Get away, you know?''
Jack looks straight ahead and ponders the significance of what was just said and then the two women come out talking and they( the men) look over their shoulders to wards them but before Jack turns fully, his gaze rests momentarily on Randall, as if weighing up the feasibility of his recent suggestion. As in the time with the rodeo clown in the bar, Jack, ever looking for that opportunity, only this time fuelled by his frustration with Ennis' non- commital.
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After my umpteenth viewing recently I noticed something for the first time......when Jack and Randall are outside waiting for the women. Randall says;'' We ought to go down there some weekend. Drink a little whiskey, fish some. Get away, you know?''
Jack looks straight ahead and ponders the significance of what was just said and then the two women come out talking and they( the men) look over their shoulders to wards them but before Jack turns fully, his gaze rests momentarily on Randall, as if weighing up the feasibility of his recent suggestion. As in the time with the rodeo clown in the bar, Jack, ever looking for that opportunity, only this time fuelled by his frustration with Ennis' non- commital.
Hi, Andy...good catch!
Isn't there something poignant about his profile; like he just can't get past missing Ennis, so feels like s--t even thinking about Randall?
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Indeed...and isn't there that something of the inevitable when Jack's gaze rests for just that split second but long enough to decide on Randalls suitability as a substitute for Ennis although I suspect that we're talking 90% sexual here and just a tad emotional.
Jake's acting here is a good example of the reason he won best actor at the Baftas. The more I watch scenes like this the more impressed I am with our Jake........ How can anyone not be drawn to this man wether in or out of character? :P
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Indeed...and isn't there that something of the inevitable when Jack's gaze rests for just that split second but long enough to decide on Randalls suitability as a substitute for Ennis although I suspect that we're talking 90% sexual here and just a tad emotional.
Jake's acting here is a good example of the reason he won best actor at the Baftas. The more I watch scenes like this the more impressed I am with our Jake........ How can anyone not be drawn to this man wether in or out of character? :P
Ding, ding, ding....You just one CSI's favorite post of the day award. I just have to figure out what it is....!
yes, I TOTALLY agree on the quotient of lust/frustatration vs emotional response. But I gotta say-Randalll has his attraction. That "twisty" little way, he says "Y'know?" tells me there is a hot guy underneath there; that is probably something Jack senses, and it reminds him very much of Ennis. There's been discussion that Randall is the Ennis that might've been, under different circumstances-not that ANY of us would want a different Ennis. He suits me just fine....And yeah our blue-eyed JackJake-I'd take him. Too bad he wouldn't take me :( Ms Straight Female-sigh.
Tx for a great couple of posts.
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Working with the screencaps from The Striped Wall, I find it hard to tell if Jack is looking at Randall, or over at Lureen and Lashawn coming down the steps. But Randall, at that point, is looking straight ahead, and he really looks unhappy. Then, a little later, when we pull back for a longer shot, we see Randall looking at the two women, and Jack with his head bowed, looking down into his lap. The set of his shoulders is very dejected.
Here are links to the two pictures.
http://www.stripedwall.com/cpg/displayimage.php?album=181&pos=363
http://www.stripedwall.com/cpg/displayimage.php?album=181&pos=364
Time to watch the DVD again.
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That reminds me, Sid-I haven't watch the DVD for a couple of nights in a row....oh know!
Everytime I try to get pulled in, they keep pulling me back out!
What scenes are we watching tonight? I have some popcorn, do you? If we are going to carry on this affair behind Jason's back, we need to PLAN......
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Then, a little later, when we pull back for a longer shot, we see Randall looking at the two women, and Jack with his head bowed, looking down into his lap. The set of his shoulders is very dejected.
Oh. During my viewings in the theatre I tended to watch the women come out (why? why?) - I've never noticed Jack's pose. For a man who's just been offered hot man sex, he doesn't look so happy, does he?
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Working with the screencaps from The Striped Wall,
Thank you for the link to that site - I didn't know it existed!
I got browsing and found this one where Jack gives a secret sign to Randall:
http://www.stripedwall.com/cpg/displayimage.php?album=181&pos=325
'It's THIS big, honestly!'. Clearly he is showing off his fishing prowess, in the hope of being taken on a fishing trip.
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In the short story, Proulx implies that after his marriage, a meaningless job at Lureen's father's
company is fabricated for Jack. (Why he couldn't be given a 'real' productive job, I don't know.
Maybe it is a manifestation of his father-in-law's emnity. A way of keeping his son-in-law in a subservient
and therefore, unmanly position....)
Jack is sent on the road.
He has money and knows how and where to spend it.
From that I assume that prostitutes or just men he meets on his travels, become
recipients of Jack's generosity over the years. (Although I can't think it is an all consuming thing.
He couldn't/wouldn't be that careless.)
Poor Jack.
Yes, I agree - I think Jack was 'riding more than bulls' right the way through. After all, unlike Ennis, he can't make it ona couple of high altitude fucks every year - so he hasn't been :). So whether or not the trip to Mexico was a one off, Jack was finding ways and means somehow or other. He suggested to Ennis that people 'maybe go to Denver' but I think that even by then, Jack was more knowledgeable than he admitted about where to go.
As you say, his marriage actually opened opportunities for him to meet men, due to the money. Poor Lureen! Do you think giving him a fabricated job emasculates him in a way? I can see what you're saying there. Quite a contrast to before - although Jack made barely enough to live on, he was supporting himself in very masculine jobs. Even his production of a son, evidence of his fertility/masculinity/potency if you like, is claimed back by LD Newsome when he says the boy looks like his grandfather.
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Re: the prostitute. I've been wondering for a while now (though maybe I shouldn't) what happened after the two of them disappeared into the darkness. Did they have a bed to go to? Or did they just turn a corner and do it somewhere in a back alley? Were there any words exchanged at all? Did the prostitute get to be the top so that Jack could close his eyes and pretend he was with Ennis? Mind you, as far as the film goes I'm kinda glad this was all left 'in the dark', but I cannot help but wonder. Thoughts?
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Re: the prostitute. I've been wondering for a while now (though maybe I shouldn't) what happened after the two of them disappeared into the darkness. Did they have a bed to go to? Or did they just turn a corner and do it somewhere in a back alley? Were there any words exchanged at all? Did the prostitute get to be the top so that Jack could close his eyes and pretend he was with Ennis? Mind you, as far as the film goes I'm kinda glad this was all left 'in the dark', but I cannot help but wonder. Thoughts?
What happened was Jack changed his mind, went back to Riverton and persuaded Ennis to run away with him and they lived happily ever after. That's my version and I'm sticking to it! Of course, in an imaginary "what if Jack had sex with a Mexican prostitute" world I'd have thought there was some dive of a hotel where you can rent rooms by the hour just round the corner. IMHO Jack'd be bottom and it'd be a fast, soulless fuck that was both bitter and unsatisfactory. Good job it never happened eh?
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What happened was Jack changed his mind, went back to Riverton and persuaded Ennis to run away with him and they lived happily ever after. That's my version and I'm sticking to it! Of course, in an imaginary "what if Jack had sex with a Mexican prostitute" world I'd have thought there was some dive of a hotel where you can rent rooms by the hour just round the corner. IMHO Jack'd be bottom and it'd be a fast, soulless fuck that was both bitter and unsatisfactory. Good job it never happened eh?
Ha... I can see we're both equally in denial over what happened in the second part of the movie, Alice. For a lot of people on this forum, including me, the post-divorce scene is one of the hardest the watch, if not the hardest - it is such a turning point in the film and in the relationship, and not a good one. :-\ My heart just weeps for Jack when Ennis turns him away, and it pretty much keeps weeping throughout the rest of the film. The only cure for my heartache are the fanfics that deal with alternative scenarios (but that's something for a different thread ;) ).
But yeah. I honestly think the whole deal was sealed without a word - what was there to say anyway? Poor Jack. I can only imagine how he felt afterwards, putting down money for something that gives him only a few seconds of gratification followed by a whole sh*tload of regret and bitterness. It's quick fix - but it does nothing to take the hurt away.
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Ha... I can see we're both equally in denial over what happened in the second part of the movie, Alice. For a lot of people on this forum, including me, the post-divorce scene is one of the hardest the watch, if not the hardest - it is such a turning point in the film and in the relationship, and not a good one. :-\ My heart just weeps for Jack when Ennis turns him away, and it pretty much keeps weeping throughout the rest of the film. The only cure for my heartache are the fanfics that deal with alternative scenarios (but that's something for a different thread ;) ).
Ah yes, I started to read the fanfics just yesterday and am feeling alternately happy 'cause they feed into my denial or sad because they didn't really happen. Damn, this movie's driving me mad! I agree this is the hardest scene to watch - the shirts scene and "Jack, I swear" are also hard but I just can't watch this scene - I closed my eyes in the cinema. I can't bear the rejection and Jack's tears as he drives away. Interesting that although we see repressed, taciturn Ennis well up several times, this is the only time we see sweet, open Jack cry. Breaks my heart.
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Ah yes, I started to read the fanfics just yesterday and am feeling alternately happy 'cause they feed into my denial or sad because they didn't really happen. Damn, this movie's driving me mad! I agree this is the hardest scene to watch - the shirts scene and "Jack, I swear" are also hard but I just can't watch this scene - I closed my eyes in the cinema. I can't bear the rejection and Jack's tears as he drives away. Interesting that although we see repressed, taciturn Ennis well up several times, this is the only time we see sweet, open Jack cry. Breaks my heart.
You're right - kind of amazing isn't it? I'm thinking this was done on purpose. Jack wasn't a crybaby, but this rejection is harsh; he has just found out that a life with Ennis is *never* going to happen, whether Alma is around or not, and the audience gets to see what it does to him. The contrast between the two truck scenes that begin and end the post-divorce scene is almost too cruel to watch, first Jack singing and whistling, big grin on his face, then brokenhearted Jack, crying quietly in his truck. And Jake delivers both scenes so well - damn that boy for being so talented. :'(
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Ah yes, I started to read the fanfics just yesterday and am feeling alternately happy 'cause they feed into my denial or sad because they didn't really happen. Damn, this movie's driving me mad! I agree this is the hardest scene to watch - the shirts scene and "Jack, I swear" are also hard but I just can't watch this scene - I closed my eyes in the cinema. I can't bear the rejection and Jack's tears as he drives away. Interesting that although we see repressed, taciturn Ennis well up several times, this is the only time we see sweet, open Jack cry. Breaks my heart.
You're right - kind of amazing isn't it? I'm thinking this was done on purpose. Jack wasn't a crybaby, but this rejection is harsh; he has just found out that a life with Ennis is *never* going to happen, whether Alma is around or not, and the audience gets to see what it does to him. The contrast between the two truck scenes that begin and end the post-divorce scene is almost too cruel to watch, first Jack singing and whistling, big grin on his face, then brokenhearted Jack, crying quietly in his truck. And Jake delivers both scenes so well - damn that boy for being so talented. :'(
I know - it's gutwrenching to see Jake play these scenes - and wordless too.
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I can only imagine how he felt afterwards, putting down money for something that gives him only a few seconds of gratification followed by a whole sh*tload of regret and bitterness. It's quick fix - but it does nothing to take the hurt away.
I can't say I've ever imagined regret. What is there to regret? And what alternative was there? 'Hell yes, I been to Mexico' doesn't sound like someone who's spent the years regretting it. It's more like 'Of course I've been. What else was I to do?'
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I can only imagine how he felt afterwards, putting down money for something that gives him only a few seconds of gratification followed by a whole sh*tload of regret and bitterness. It's quick fix - but it does nothing to take the hurt away.
I can't say I've ever imagined regret. What is there to regret? And what alternative was there? 'Hell yes, I been to Mexico' doesn't sound like someone who's spent the years regretting it. It's more like 'Of course I've been. What else was I to do?'
You know, as I was typing it I wondered if it was the right word to use. Considered removing it, but decided to let it stay. I'm not saying that he regretted it in the strict sense of the word, as in "Sh*t I wish I hadn't done that," I just meant to say that it's something he'd rather not have done in the first place, if only Ennis had given him what he *really* wanted. Does that make sense? :) Sorry, not being a native I don't always find the right words to use.
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You know, as I was typing it I wondered if it was the right word to use. Considered removing it, but decided to let it stay. I'm not saying that he regretted it in the strict sense of the word, as in "Sh*t I wish I hadn't done that," I just meant to say that it's something he'd rather not have done in the first place, if only Ennis had given him what he *really* wanted. Does that make sense? :) Sorry, not being a native I don't always find the right words to use.
Yes, it does make sense -thanks! I think the unhappiness we're seeing in that scene is about Ennis, rather than about what he's doing. He expected to be with Ennis that night, and hopefully the following nights. So yes, he'd very much rather have been somewhere else, with someone else.
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You know, as I was typing it I wondered if it was the right word to use. Considered removing it, but decided to let it stay. I'm not saying that he regretted it in the strict sense of the word, as in "Sh*t I wish I hadn't done that," I just meant to say that it's something he'd rather not have done in the first place, if only Ennis had given him what he *really* wanted. Does that make sense? :) Sorry, not being a native I don't always find the right words to use.
Yes, it does make sense -thanks! I think the unhappiness we're seeing in that scene is about Ennis, rather than about what he's doing. He expected to be with Ennis that night, and hopefully the following nights. So yes, he'd very much rather have been somewhere else, with someone else.
Yes, he wanted to be with Ennis. On the spur of the moment, he drove hundreds of miles to be with Ennis. Jack thought his dream had come true. Finally. He and Ennis were going to be together from then on.
So typical of Jack not to think things through and realize how farfetched this might be.
Especially given Ennis's nature.
But surely, now that the wife is out of the way.
Jack can step into the void.
Not as wife, but as partner.
Yup.
Cow and calf operation, here we come.
That's what's so attractive in Jack's nature, I think.
This child-like notion that things must turn out the way he wants them to just cause he wants
them to. A person like this is doomed to constant disppointment, though perversely, in certain people,
this character trait often adds to their attractiveness. It wouldn't surprise me if this very thing isn't
part of what first captured Ennis.
Most of the time I fastforward through the post divorce scene precisely because it is so heart breaking.
Although to look at Ennis's face in the first unguarded moments when he sees Jack drive up,
you'd think he was delighted to see him. For the briefest moment Ennis has the sexiest half smile.
Yup. Surprised, but delighted. Very briefly he forgets himself.
Then they hug. (At least Ennis doesn't deny himself or Jack this much.)
Then the introduction to the daughters.
The shutting down and tramping of Jack's hopes.
The white truck comes speeding round the bend: the tire iron.
Ennis immediately senses danger.
Jack looks and gets it.
Finally.
His face, jeez, his face just says it all.
All the life just goes out of it.
This is the moment when I most want to hate Ennis.
But I can't.
I don't know why Jack couldn't have hung around in the background until Ennis could find some
time for him later that night or the next day or whatever. I mean, why was it so cut and dried?
Certainly the girls were in the way, but jeez, think creatively, Ennis.
Ha.
Right.
It isn't as if Jack couldn't have joined them for dinner or a movie or whatever they were on their
way to do. Surely they could have kept their hands off each other while the girls were around.
They could have just been two friends out with the kids. Right? I mean, this DOES happen.
It is not outside the realm of possibility.
But the fearful way that Ennis glances at the white truck puts paid to everything.
This is one very frightened man.
Jack immediately gets it. He must back off.
For the purposes of narrative, this scene is black and white.
In fact, this whole story is all about black and white. There is very little gray.
Jack staying and waiting for an opportunity to be alone with Ennis would have been gray.
This is probably the only part, (well, that and the Cassie thing) that I resent when it comes
to the screenplay.
But I guess, in tragedy, there can be no real accommodation in the narrative.
Things must spiral to their definitive end.
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It isn't as if Jack couldn't have joined them for dinner or a movie or whatever they were on their
way to do. Surely they could have kept their hands off each other while the girls were around.
They could have just been two friends out with the kids. Right? I mean, this DOES happen.
It is not outside the realm of possibility.
You are absolutely right, rosewood, and I always think the same thing when watching this scene, but you know what Ennis says: We're around each other and this thing grabs hold of us again in the wrong place and the wrong time... we're dead.
Ennis is so paranoid, and you just know these two guys are crazy with lust for each other... When they're in the mountains they can jump each other whenever they want, but I think Ennis just doesn't trust himself in public with Jack around.
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But the fearful way that Ennis glances at the white truck puts paid to everything.
This is one very frightened man.
In a nutshell Rosewood. And, of course, on the surface he seems so strong and tough while Jack, the seemingly softer of the pair, has a core of inner strength (combined with a beautiful trusting nature) that enables him to see past the fear of the tyre iron and towards the potential of a sweet life.
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And, of course, on the surface he seems so strong and tough while Jack, the seemingly softer of the pair, has a core of inner strength (combined with a beautiful trusting nature) that enables him to see past the fear of the tyre iron and towards the potential of a sweet life.
It's been said before, but: yin and yang.
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It's been said before, but: yin and yang.
Exactly. Plus yin and yang are interdependent - one cannot exist without the other. For example, day cannot exist without night; light cannot exist without darkness. Ennis cannot exist without Jack.
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You are absolutely right, rosewood, and I always think the same thing when watching this scene, but you know what Ennis says: We're around each other and this thing grabs hold of us again in the wrong place and the wrong time... we're dead.
Ennis is so paranoid, and you just know these two guys are crazy with lust for each other... When they're in the mountains they can jump each other whenever they want, but I think Ennis just doesn't trust himself in public with Jack around.
Exactly. We all love the passion of the reunion scene, but it's that very passion that convinces Ennis that they can't be together except far away from humanity. That sort of scene never happens again - he makes sure of it. After that, he really believes that he can't control himself when he's with Jack. If he feels like that, it would be impossible to have Jack around when his chldren are there - or when anybody's there.
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Jack, the seemingly softer of the pair, has a core of inner strength (combined with a beautiful trusting nature) that enables him to see past the fear of the tyre iron and towards the potential of a sweet life.
I think it very fine what you have written here
But I came to this thread because having just watched the film again I noticed the signs in the Mexican square just before Jack goes into the alleyway "Liquor" and "Change". Alcohol and Cash. The hard commercai exchange. The signs announce what Ennis's intransigence is degrading Jack's love into. A desperate moment for a beautiful trusting nature.
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Oh I don't know. The story made it pretty clear that Jack knew how to fulfill his physical needs and had always done so. I don't like the way the film puts that responsibility for Jack's behaviour onto Ennis. Jack had choices to make too and he chose to go to Mexico. He could have chosen otherwise, in the same way that people expect Ennis to have chosen otherwise whilst under considerably more pressure.
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Jack, the seemingly softer of the pair, has a core of inner strength (combined with a beautiful trusting nature) that enables him to see past the fear of the tyre iron and towards the potential of a sweet life.
I think it very fine what you have written here
But I came to this thread because having just watched the film again I noticed the signs in the Mexican square just before Jack goes into the alleyway "Liquor" and "Change". Alcohol and Cash. The hard commercai exchange. The signs announce what Ennis's intransigence is degrading Jack's love into. A desperate moment for a beautiful trusting nature.
Beautifully written, FlGirl....
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Oh I don't know. The story made it pretty clear that Jack knew how to fulfill his physical needs and had always done so. I don't like the way the film puts that responsibility for Jack's behaviour onto Ennis. Jack had choices to make too and he chose to go to Mexico. He could have chosen otherwise, in the same way that people expect Ennis to have chosen otherwise whilst under considerably more pressure.
Yes, it's not Ennis's fault directly. I'm sure if Jack had been with Ennis, he wouldn't have gone to Mexico, but that doesn't mean that by not living with him, Ennis forced him to go to Mexico.
I do think Ennis tries to reduce their love to a sexual relationship, because that's what he can cope with. But I don't think he ever suggests that it's a commercial exchange. It's just that he needs to compartmentalise it.
Of course Jack had good reason to seek out other partners. And given the climate of the time, he had limited options about how he did that. But how he organised that part of his life was his business, not Ennis's.
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I always thought it was cool that ennis 2nd pickup except for color is the same make and model as as Jacks red Ford. Jacks 1965 or 66 Ford. Ennis a 1966.
Same with his first one which presumably he got after Broke back, both dark GMCs.
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I do think Ennis tries to reduce their love to a sexual relationship, because that's what he can cope with. But I don't think he ever suggests that it's a commercial exchange. It's just that he needs to compartmentalise it.
Why do you see Ennis reducing their love to a sexual relationship? That implies there is no friendship or companionship or warmth. They didn't live together, they didn't say the magical words "I love you" but that doesn't just turn it into a sexual relationship. surely? Although they both had doubts, they both knew the other man was devoted. The way Ennis conducted his life around Jack's visits shows his devotion.
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I always thought it was cool that ennis 2nd pickup except for color is the same make and model as as Jacks red Ford. Jacks 1965 or 66 Ford. Ennis a 1966.
Same with his first one which presumably he got after Broke back, both dark GMCs.
Great point. I like that.
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I do think Ennis tries to reduce their love to a sexual relationship, because that's what he can cope with. But I don't think he ever suggests that it's a commercial exchange. It's just that he needs to compartmentalise it.
Why do you see Ennis reducing their love to a sexual relationship? That implies there is no friendship or companionship or warmth. They didn't live together, they didn't say the magical words "I love you" but that doesn't just turn it into a sexual relationship. surely? Although they both had doubts, they both knew the other man was devoted. The way Ennis conducted his life around Jack's visits shows his devotion.
Of course he is devoted, and they do have a friendship as well. But he can't take things further. He seems much more comfortable with sex than he is with the rest of it. He talks about 'this thing' that can grab hold of them. A sexual relationship is understandable between two guys out in the middle of nowhere. But being a proper couple, that's what he associates with Rich and Earl - that makes you a joke, that gets you killed.
As Jack says, Ennis gives him the message that he's able to survive on a couple of high altitude fucks a year.
Rushed response - I'lll maybe come back later and explain better!
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I do think Ennis tries to reduce their love to a sexual relationship, because that's what he can cope with. But I don't think he ever suggests that it's a commercial exchange. It's just that he needs to compartmentalise it.
Why do you see Ennis reducing their love to a sexual relationship? That implies there is no friendship or companionship or warmth. They didn't live together, they didn't say the magical words "I love you" but that doesn't just turn it into a sexual relationship. surely? Although they both had doubts, they both knew the other man was devoted. The way Ennis conducted his life around Jack's visits shows his devotion.
Of course he is devoted, and they do have a friendship as well. But he can't take things further. He seems much more comfortable with sex than he is with the rest of it. He talks about 'this thing' that can grab hold of them. A sexual relationship is understandable between two guys out in the middle of nowhere. But being a proper couple, that's what he associates with Rich and Earl - that makes you a joke, that gets you killed.
As Jack says, Ennis gives him the message that he's able to survive on a couple of high altitude fucks a year.
Rushed response - I'lll maybe come back later and explain better!
I know what you are saying here, Desecra....it is a way for him to rationalize this "thing" they have, that he is not ready to call love. I don't think you are saying that's what it really is, but rather that is what Ennis tries to see it as, correct?
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I know what you are saying here, Desecra....it is a way for him to rationalize this "thing" they have, that he is not ready to call love. I don't think you are saying that's what it really is, but rather that is what Ennis tries to see it as, correct?
Yes, exactly - thank you! And it is a case of Ennis TRYING to see it that way, because really he knows it's more.
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As Jack says, Ennis gives him the message that he's able to survive on a couple of high altitude fucks a year.
No, no. Truth may come out in passionate exchanges but this one never rang true. Ennis makes it by constantly masturbating as the story says. That's not satisfactory but he's just trying to stand what he can't fix. Damnit.
Just cause Jack says that's what Ennis is like, doesn't make it so.
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I didn't say it did. Ennis's feelings may even go deeper than Jack's, but he's still the one keeping the relationship where it is, not Jack. And the message he's giving Jack is that this is all he will let it be - fishing trips, high altitude fucks, etc.
Of course at the end, he can't stand it either. [I don't see the masturbating as not standing it - partly because that's what happened before they started the relationship again, and also because most young men masturbate constantly :)].
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As Jack says, Ennis gives him the message that he's able to survive on a couple of high altitude fucks a year.
No, no. Truth may come out in passionate exchanges but this one never rang true. Ennis makes it by constantly masturbating as the story says. That's not satisfactory but he's just trying to stand what he can't fix. Damnit.
Just cause Jack says that's what Ennis is like, doesn't make it so.
I think Jack is mostly trying to get a response from Ennis with this; he is daring him to deny that he can make without Jack, and that he misses him, as Jack misses Ennis. He is being deliberately provocative, IMO.
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I think Jack is mostly trying to get a response from Ennis with this; he is daring him to deny that he can make without Jack, and that he misses him, as Jack misses Ennis. He is being deliberately provocative, IMO.
Sort of like this? "And I'm not you! I can't pretend to make it on a couple of high-altitude fucks a year!"
Or this? "And I'm not just like you! I can't make it on a couple of high-altitude fucks a year any more than you can, if you'd only admit to it !"
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um......Yeah, Sid, yeah.....I think.....makes sense......hell, yes! "I'm not you" has an accusatory tone to it, like something is wrong with Ennis (duh), and I do think Jack is trying to rile him, make him show things matter to him.
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Is it meant to be an earplug Ennis is taking out of his ear in the scene when Timmy's been complaining about breakin' his back shovelling asphalt?
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If it was me, I'd have an earplug....!
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Is it meant to be an earplug Ennis is taking out of his ear in the scene when Timmy's been complaining about breakin' his back shovelling asphalt?
I've been wondering the same thing. It would definitely make sense! (and no, not just because of Timmy! lol)
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I thought he was just scratching! :-\
Gotta watch the DVD again!
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I thought he was just scratching! :-\
Gotta watch the DVD again!
You do that Sid and come back to share your thoughts. :)
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I was just watching the second truck scene, the one where jack comes all the way to see ennis on the offshot that the card he sent to him about his divorce from alma meant that he was finally free to be with him. It just sort of hit me that the reason ennis was probably so paranoid about that white truck passing by was jack's earlier comment that he ' had to ask twelve people in riverton where you had moved to.', and how ennis, in all his paranoia, may have linked the white truck to jack's comment. A man asking around for ennis ? A good looking man who seems to know ennis very well enough to get in contact with him rather desperately ? Which would be highly suspicious as everyone in riverton would know how stand offist ennis is around everyone else, so why would jack be so special ? It just hit me in that scene how ennis may have suddenly gotten so paranoid about jack bein' there on such short notice, when he could have easily have said to wait in the house while he'd take the girls back home.
besides that, what really kills me in this scene is that split second bit where, after they hug in greeting ( another very uncommon thing for ennis to do ) jack very briefly goes to caress the back of ennis' neck, yet ennis roughly yanks it away and looks around before taking him to see the girls. Jack still smiles, but it is deflated and a bit sad at what ennis did and I felt so bad for jack when ennis did that.
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I love that caress by Jack - so lovely, such happiness, only to be shot down in flames seconds later. *sob*
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:'( That little scene kills me too all the time when I see how ennis just roughly yanks away that hand from his neck, and my feelings of dread just keep getting bigger as the scene draws on because we the audience know that ennis is going to reject jack again, at least those who have read the book, so seeing all of jack's enthusiasm for this reunion and possible life together, with HIM not knowing he is about to get his plane shot out of the sky again, it just makes my insides turn. When I view this scene on dvd I always sort of fast-skip that bit, yet slow-motion the hug/neck caress bit. it is unusual for a movie scene to have such conflicting desires bought up in me - I want to watch it for one element ( the caress/hug and happy jack/ennis ) yet am torn apart by the known outcome.
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:'( That little scene kills me too all the time when I see how ennis just roughly yanks away that hand from his neck, and my feelings of dread just keep getting bigger as the scene draws on because we the audience know that ennis is going to reject jack again, at least those who have read the book, so seeing all of jack's enthusiasm for this reunion and possible life together, with HIM not knowing he is about to get his plane shot out of the sky again, it just makes my insides turn. When I view this scene on dvd I always sort of fast-skip that bit, yet slow-motion the hug/neck caress bit. it is unusual for a movie scene to have such conflicting desires bought up in me - I want to watch it for one element ( the caress/hug and happy jack/ennis ) yet am torn apart by the known outcome.
and I can't stand that crying in the truck, afterwards....That scene to me is as painful as the I Swear scene;
They are bookends in a way, Jack getting rejected and crying alone; Ennis getting permanently rejected, and crying alone.
They should have been together.....
Hi, Jack23. Tx for the topic.
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You want a real heart-breaker, try the scene as Jack turns to get back in the truck. Zoom in on that and run it in V-E-R-Y slow motion, and watch his hand come up to hide the heartbreak in his face. Makes me want to reach right into the screen, grab Ennis and sit him down and make him watch it, while yelling at him, "Look what you're doing! What's the matter with you anyway!"
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You want a real heart-breaker, try the scene as Jack turns to get back in the truck. Zoom in on that and run it in V-E-R-Y slow motion, and watch his hand come up to hide the heartbreak in his face. Makes me want to reach right into the screen, grab Ennis and sit him down and make him watch it, while yelling at him, "Look what you're doing! What's the matter with you anyway!"
Oh, no, I can't take it....
hey, Sid! How are ya? I am sitting at my brand new antigue James town folddown desk, with my brand new Notebook-I am in hog heaven, friend. Wish you were here.....
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besides that, what really kills me in this scene is that split second bit where, after they hug in greeting ( another very uncommon thing for ennis to do )
I don't think it was uncommon for Ennis to hug Jack in greeting, but Jack was probally the only man he ever hugged.
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it is unusual for a movie scene to have such conflicting desires bought up in me
I am so glad you brought this notion up. I have been annihilated by the way Ang constantly slams my emotions around. Throws one happy/tender/loving moment up against the brutal truth...the very next moment. The most obvious being the Ministering Angel Scene. Listen to the way Jack says "Ennis...Ennis.." after the nose bleed. There is not a more tender moment btwn the two in the film (okay...maybe the hotel scene...but not really) that is followed-up with the awful punch (the most violent scene between the two).
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:'( That said scene also gets me worked up too, just in the fact, as you said, Jack goes in all tender and worried about ennis bleeding all over the place and for his trouble Jack is given a sucker punch right to the face. It is a very odd mix of the tender/violent emotions that run through ennis when ever he is with Jack, and is a theme that plays right through their relationship in varying degrees. Some people say that is the reason why the relationship is a unhealthy one for jack to have, as everytime he tries to solidify their union he is continually 'hit down' by ennis. And like an abused person they keep going back to their abuser despite their own, and others, better judgement. But I think what makes Jack come back time after time, for better or worse, is that he sees the man ennis is inside, and is hoping to chip away at the shell ennis has and find that man he got good glimpses of back up and BBM.
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Answered over on the relationship thread.
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This is just some musing - not meant to be controversial, and don't feel you have to join me :). I'd be interested in your speculations though. I'll move over to Jack's fate if that's more appropriate.
Does anyone wonder what happened to Randall? I presume there weren't two tire iron 'accidents' in the area - although maybe there were. But I'm left with not knowing how Randall fared. Had he told LaShawn he was leaving? Did Jack's death 'out' him, or did it scare him back into the closet? How did he deal with losing Jack? Did anybody know how he felt - could he talk to anyone?
What about Rich too? He presumably survived Earl. Did he leave town? Did Ennis see him again?
What about Uncle Harold, for that matter? We know he survived the pneumonia, but not how he fared after that. He may have been a little seen relative, but he was important enough to the Twists for them to leave that old ranch and get a message over to Aguirre to pass on to Jack when he was ill. Was he close to Jack at all? A role model? Jack doesn't seem too bothered about his illness, but maybe that's just because he's so caught up with Ennis.
I think I need a 'Where are the now?' appendix.
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'Not meant to be controversial" -Des, you're singin my favorite song! :D :D :D
Seriously, I give it a go:
Rich-Had to have left town; he'd never stay, out of sheer fear for his life. Sadly, I bet he became a further recluse, elsewhere, or a, drunk, whatever an older man who has lived in fear of exposure all his life, and has his worst fears come true, from local townspeople, might do. I shudder to think how he survived....maybe Ennis' fate also signals what Rich's was. Consigned to a trailer far out...Someone did a fic on that exact topic.....
Randall-since we don't know how or if he was involved with Jack's fate, this is the hardest speculation of all. You know how I feel; I don't think he was significant. In that light, his and Jack's sexual forays may never have come to light; Jack may still have been going to Mexico, got tracked by the good ol boys, etc.
I would imagine Randall has found someone else; he was too quick and direct with Jack upon first meeting to not be practiced at the art of the pick up. He has the smarts to have made it work, because he has clearly more resoiurces than either Jack or Ennis.
At some point, LeShawn would give him up, if he didn't leave her first. I think the latter will or did happen.
Uncle "Aguirre's excuse" Harold. Since he is no more than a brief tool in the story, I'd say he died soon after, assuming he was older-pneumonia is often a death sentence to older people-and he is nowhere in evidence when Ennis goes to the parents at the end. The importance to Jack's mom is probably that he is the only uncle Jack has. It would have been nice to have Jack mention him during the fishing trips; it would have brought BBM back to them, however briefly.
Just some thoughts.
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Thank you, Cantstandit! I don't know why these things are bothering me so much today.
Rich bothers me the most. 'Two old guys ranched together' - I imagine his relationshp with Earl could have been very long term - 20, 30 years or more? Had the bought the ranch together? Did Rich inherit or was it a legal mess? Maybe he could have had no rights over it. I suppose he must have sold up and left. I imagine you're right about the trailer. How could you get over your partner dying in such a horrible manner, and knowing that it was your neighbours, no doubt the ones you nod and wave at, who did it?
Randall, I imagine would be pretty devastated too. Maybe only a three year relationship, but that's enough to care very deeply. If it was Randall who got Jack killed in a sense, then I wonder if he's left with guilt? He may have met someone else - he was younger than Earl, not as afraid as Ennis - although Jack's death may have made him more afraid. I suppose I think of him not being able to grieve properly, a bit like Ennis in a way. Especially if Jack's sexual orientation is still supposedly under wraps - Randall can't ever say what he meant to him. Maybe he got to the funeral, but as a fishing buddy, not a lover. And he didn't have an excuse to go to Lightning Flats. I've always seen Randall as a pretty average gay guy of that time and place [we're never given enough information to see much more] and he's stuck with the average, ordinary tragedy of a gay guy not being able to grieve openly for the lover he lost.
Uncle Harold - I never thought that he might have lived with the Twists, but I suppose that's possible and would explain why the message was sent. I wonder which side of the family he was on?
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it was fun.....
You are making me wonder about something, and this is way out there: If he was Twist Sr.s brother, is it possible he was "like jack", so the Dad hated Jack for it? I have no reason for this, just looking for something to explain to me why Twist Sr, was such a creep to his 3-yr old boy. Did he sense something in Jack, and knew what it meant, because he had other relatives who were gay, so had major issues with Jack? Not that I'm excusiing him, you understand. Ingnorant as he was, he was wily enough to figure Ennis out quickly, and use the exact weaponry that might hurt him-the possibility-and in Ennis' mind, unfortunately, taken as fact-of another man. So, he certainly had a stronger sense than to abuse his baby son. The heartlessness is what is so unnerving, and I guess I am trying to see a cause and effect.
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it was fun.....
You are making me wonder about something, and this is way out there: If he was Twist Sr.s brother, is it possible he was "like jack", so the Dad hated Jack for it? I have no reason for this, just looking for something to explain to me why Twist Sr, was such a creep to his 3-yr old boy. Did he sense something in Jack, and knew what it meant, because he had other relatives who were gay, so had major issues with Jack? Not that I'm excusiing him, you understand. Ingnorant as he was, he was wily enough to figure Ennis out quickly, and use the exact weaponry that might hurt him-the possibility-and in Ennis' mind, unfortunately, taken as fact-of another man. So, he certainly had a stronger sense than to abuse his baby son. The heartlessness is what is so unnerving, and I guess I am trying to see a cause and effect.
Yes, I've wondered about John Twist's motivation. I'm not conWhich is another vinced he sensed his son was gay, but Jack may have been closer to his mother than he would have liked. I wondered if there was some jealousy from Mr Stud Duck of any boy/man in the house getting affection from Mrs Twist - even his little 3 year old son. I don't really know. I'm just not sure that Jack would have come across as 'queer' at 3 - although maybe he did later, and he may have shown some qualities that were consdiered 'feminine' at 3 - being affectionate, sensitive, etc.. When did John Twist know for sure?
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it was fun.....
You are making me wonder about something, and this is way out there: If he was Twist Sr.s brother, is it possible he was "like jack", so the Dad hated Jack for it? I have no reason for this, just looking for something to explain to me why Twist Sr, was such a creep to his 3-yr old boy. Did he sense something in Jack, and knew what it meant, because he had other relatives who were gay, so had major issues with Jack? Not that I'm excusiing him, you understand. Ingnorant as he was, he was wily enough to figure Ennis out quickly, and use the exact weaponry that might hurt him-the possibility-and in Ennis' mind, unfortunately, taken as fact-of another man. So, he certainly had a stronger sense than to abuse his baby son. The heartlessness is what is so unnerving, and I guess I am trying to see a cause and effect.
Yes, I've wondered about John Twist's motivation. I'm not conWhich is another vinced he sensed his son was gay, but Jack may have been closer to his mother than he would have liked. I wondered if there was some jealousy from Mr Stud Duck of any boy/man in the house getting affection from Mrs Twist - even his little 3 year old son. I don't really know. I'm just not sure that Jack would have come across as 'queer' at 3 - although maybe he did later, and he may have shown some qualities that were consdiered 'feminine' at 3 - being affectionate, sensitive, etc.. When did John Twist know for sure?
I got a little controversial about this, I think, on the Were They Gay thread, after posting this here, and I got ta thinkin.....I realized I am overshooting on this one. The only literary necessity is that he be a mean bastard, and have suspicions about his son.
I would guess, though, that he may have inadvertenly picked up on the wife's obvious adoration of the boy-their only child-and could just as well be jealousy. He never "gets" Jack, ie, Jack gives up on him, and just pacifies him as an adult. Then when Ennis shows up, and turns out to be real, vital, obviously devasted, and most certainly a stud duck himself, the dad IMO displays jealousy, ie, if he rejects me, then I'll be damned if I won't try to let you think he rejected you-along with putting Ennis in his "queer" place.
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I don't think Jack rejected his father though. He chose the same career, he visits every year [not often but it's a long way away] and talks about moving back up there.
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I said Jack "gave up" on his Dad, ie, "Ya can't please my ol man no way." It's the dad I am supposing read it as rejection; of course he could just be projecting his own guilt, too. He HAS to have some idea about the things he's done to Jack.
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Uncle Harold was probably Mrs T's relative since she sent up the message (I think) Anyway, Harold's kids inherited the farm which is why Ennis never got it after the old folks died.
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Cross-posting an early comment of mine.
Jack: "Can't please my old man no way."
Getting back to Twist Sr., here's my take on the man and his feelings about his son. He's one of those generally disapproving types--nothing's ever good enough--suspicious of everything and everybody. His need to be stud duck in the pond catches him up in a really ugly loop with Jack. He perceives anything Jack does as a direct challenge to him. (Probably he's like this with any male--no wonder he can't get any help around the place!) So if Jack tries to be like his old man in some way, like bullriding in the rodeo, JCTSr. will interpret that as an attempt to supplant him as the top dog in the family. But when Jack does anything differently than his father would have, that's a slap in the face, too, because it's a rejection of the way JCTSr. does things. What a twisted view to have of your only child: utter contempt when he fails (like the old man is such a success himself) and suspicion and paranoia when he succeeds. "Too goddamn special" indeed!
Maybe he loves his son as much as he can, but that's not very much at all.
And poor Mrs. Twist. I keep getting flashes of what a sweet, hopeful, loving girl she might have been, before she got tangled up with JCTSr. Ennis may not see Jack in either of them, but I see him in her as she was in her youth.
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And poor Mrs. Twist. I keep getting flashes of what a sweet, hopeful, loving girl she might have been, before she got tangled up with JCTSr. Ennis may not see Jack in either of them, but I see him in her as she was in her youth.
I do too. And no doubt all the hope she had left had been invested in Jack. I just don't know how she carries on after his death, going through the motions. There's something wraith-like about her.
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And poor Mrs. Twist. I keep getting flashes of what a sweet, hopeful, loving girl she might have been, before she got tangled up with JCTSr. Ennis may not see Jack in either of them, but I see him in her as she was in her youth.
I do too. And no doubt all the hope she had left had been invested in Jack. I just don't know how she carries on after his death, going through the motions. There's something wraith-like about her.
And this is why she asked Ennis to go visit them again. She knew that it was only Ennis who could really understand her pain and help her deal with the loss of her only child and she did the same for Ennis. They understood each other and they could offer a shoulder to cry on to each other. I wonder if she ever had the opportunity to mourn for her son properly with Mr Twist being there all the time critising her son even now that Jack was dead (like he did in front of Ennis). I would like to think that she would stand up to Mr Twist for her son's shake.
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I agree with the Sid/Des posts about Mrs .Twist and Ennis. Of course her wraith-likeness could be an illusion due to the surgery.
IMO, I think she'd need to be a tough cookie to negotiate the bullshit between the ol man and poor Jack. I would guess she probably prevented a few instances of abuse they may have almost happened.She does not strike me as someone who would just stand by, nervous as she is about how the two men will resolve the ash thing, ie, "...he's goin in the family plot." "Yessir."
She certainly has her own mind.
Look at the way Twist Sr, tracks her as she makes the coffee. My take is one of two:
-He is not sure how to handle Ennis' presence yet, so is looking to her for some behavioral clue-I've seen long-married men do that before;
or
-He is really ticked at some agreement he was forced to make with her before Ennis showed up, then, of course, insults him anyway, in an indirect way as possible. I could just hear it:
That goddamned queer ain't comin in this house!
John Twist, that's your son and this is his friend, blah, blah...and I just had surgery, and you're making me upset, etc.
I can see that happening. He is not the stud duck he used to be; note the pills he is taking when Ennis walks back downstairs with the shirts. Most likely, these are heart pills, and I really don't think he'll be around alot longer.
So, I agree, she is looking forward to seeing Ennis and again, and being able to share.
He's gettin those ashes, folks!
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He's gettin those ashes, folks!
CSI, you do know how to make someone happy, don't you? :-*
I also noticed the way Twist Sr. follows her with his eyes instead of looking at his guest, and I see something in his eyes that's akin to suspicion. In addition to your analysis: could it be that Twist senses the rapport between 'that queer' and his wife, that he feels they're kindred spirits and that they're going to side together in the ashes debate? I have a feeling that this is something he is very aware of at this point, and that he does not like it in the least speaks for itself, him being the stud duck/lord and master of the house and all.
Btw, why are we not discussing this at the Jack's parents thread? ::)
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Good point...let's just say that's a "scene within a scene", so it counts as "all other scenes". ;) I'm happy to move it over there....
[checks around for Mod-has to be good, after last weekend....}
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Thank you.
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Wanted to make mention of ol' Randall's rather obvious proposition of Jack
on that bench outside the dance hall and figured this was the right thread.
Hadn't thought much about this until recently someone mentioned Jack's
expression and, well, these things fester in my mind for days and then
I can't find the original post and well, what can I say? My memory and
thinking prowess ain't what they used to be...
Just after Randall says, "...you know?"
I think that's plain ol' shock on Jack's face. It's like, "What just happened
here? Did I hear what I just thought I heard?" You can almost see the wheels
spinning dizzily in his brain.
I'm thinking, maybe in the past, Jack's the one who's had to do most of the
propositioning. Maybe this is the first time in ages that a tall, good looking
guy has come on to him. (Hard to believe, I know.) Maybe this is the first
time that Jack hasn't had to do all the work.
Something tells me that in this 'relationship' ol' Randall is the one who does
the chasing. Perhaps he's the one who has to accommodate Jack.
Maybe Jack likes the feeling of being accommodated for a change...
As the seconds tick away, Jack also looks as if he's afraid to move for
fear of giving anything away. There's something really heavy behind that
momentary stillness. In some obscure way that I can't explain, he almost
looks frantic in the moment just before the wives descend on them.
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Insightful and provocative, rosewood.
Maybe it's that Randall is using the same cover-up, fishing, that J&E use.
Maybe Jack is just suddenly struck with how different things would be if Ennis could be this upfront.
Maybe he thinks he has to respond right away, and is wondering if he should pretend he doesn't understand, give a "Thanks but no thanks," or go with "If you're sayin what I think you might be sayin, I'll beat you to a pulp if you ever say it again."
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I'm thinking, maybe in the past, Jack's the one who's had to do most of the
propositioning. Maybe this is the first time in ages that a tall, good looking
guy has come on to him. (Hard to believe, I know.) Maybe this is the first
time that Jack hasn't had to do all the work.
Something tells me that in this 'relationship' ol' Randall is the one who does
the chasing. Perhaps he's the one who has to accommodate Jack.
Yes, it IS hard to believe that Jack would normally have to do all the running, but I suppose it fits with what we see. Randall is the first time we've seen anybody making a move on Jack [apart from Lureen - no wonder he found that flattering, at least!].
I definitely get the impression that Randall is more keen on Jack than Jack is on him. I think he does have to accomodate Jack too - the fishing trips with Ennis will always have to take priority.
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All I see in that scene is great sadness in Jack's eyes. I think that although we were not shown it in the film but was referred to in the book as he was 'riding more than bulls', that given how attractive Movie Jack is thanks to being played by Gyllenhaal, there would be no doubt in my mind that Jack would have gotten WAY more attention that what was shown. His looks would have opened up more offers than say the average looking cowboy or rodeo rider and so being the one being propositioned to instead of the other way around, would not have been strange to Jack.
I think what is the source of the pained/hurt/confused look in Jack's eyes in that scene is that, he can/would/want ANYONE he wants and he knows it. Being good looking gives you that advantage, but the painful fact for our Jack is that the one person, the very person he wants more than anything to find HIM desirable, HIM worth something, HIM being worth the risk of the wife/kids/family/town finding out he is queer, WON'T DO IT NO MATTER WHAT. Jack knows he can have the pick of the litter so to speak. He is not a runt. But ironically he wants the runt of the litter, Ennis, to be with the pick of the litter which is him.
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Jack23, wow!!
For Jack always liked a little dog...
I really like your take. I also see infinite sadness in Jack's eyes. For the reasons you say. And also because he is going to accept Randall's proposal, and he feels terrible about it. He has reached a point when he can't bear his loneliness any more and Randall is offering him the opportunity for a coping mechanism : a steady relationship on the side, so he can survive from one fihin trip to the next. He feels alwful, because this really means cheating on Ennisn unlike the boys in Mexico. That's why he lies about the rancher's wife, but not about Mexico.
He kind of knew this offer was coming, from the exchanges of glances over dinner. He was disturbed, spread cigarette ashes all over himself, asked Lashawn to dance so he could escape for a while and think: 'I don't want to say goodbye' is his dilemma. When Randall makes his offer, Jack is not surprised, he expected it and prepared for it. He will say yes, even though this is a compromise that costs him dearly. Needs of the body vs needs of the heart...
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Jack,
I'm curious why you call Ennis the runt of the litter? (No irony intended, this is an honest question).
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No problem ;D
Runt of the litter is how I picture ennis in a way, as in the movie version he sounds, when he tells Jack that more details explination of what happened to his brother and sister and family and how 'that how me ended up here', followed by the little joke of all rodeo riders being fuck ups just to jibe jack a little. To me it also mirrors in the book that Jack takes under his wing the runt puppy from the litter of blue heelers they sent up the mountain with them, though this was not shown in the movie and instead used lambs. To me it makes sense that, in the book Jack is said to always be the underdog ( the runt ), yet he himself is instinctively drawn to that very same type of person being the nurturer/care giver/emotional soul that he is. Unfortunatley it is that same trait that gets people like Jack burned by the wrong type of people, but at the same time without that yearning to always go for the runt of the litter as it were, the one who needs more nurturing and help than those of the other litter, Jack would never have fallen for ennis the way he did.
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Angel,
Let's see what Jack23 says, but I would take it as the one most in need of nurturing and protection, the most vulnerable one, so needy but unable to satisfy his needs. In the sense of il più commovente
Of course, there is also the other facet: Ennis is also Jack's hero, the one who is best at shooting, horse-riding, teasing, f**n' etc etc...
Nothing is one dimensional in this story, so no single definition is ever completely acurate
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No problem ;D
Runt of the litter is how I picture ennis in a way, as in the movie version he sounds, when he tells Jack that more details explination of what happened to his brother and sister and family and how 'that how me ended up here', followed by the little joke of all rodeo riders being fuck ups just to jibe jack a little. To me it also mirrors in the book that Jack takes under his wing the runt puppy from the litter of blue heelers they sent up the mountain with them, though this was not shown in the movie and instead used lambs. To me it makes sense that, in the book Jack is said to always be the underdog ( the runt ), yet he himself is instinctively drawn to that very same type of person being the nurturer/care giver/emotional soul that he is. Unfortunatley it is that same trait that gets people like Jack burned by the wrong type of people, but at the same time without that yearning to always go for the runt of the litter as it were, the one who needs more nurturing and help than those of the other litter, Jack would never have fallen for ennis the way he did.
Thanks. Enjoyed your post.
I guess that I considered Ennis such a prize that I found it hard to understand, at first. I fully agree about Jack. That's why I said in another post on another thread that being like Jack is very fatiguing.
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May I ask a maybe stupid question:
as and non-american I'm not so familiar with the school system, so I don't really understand Lureens comment that she was 'tri-delta' in school and LaShawn was 'kappa-five'. I guess that it is 'better' to be tri-delta, ie Lureen want to show off - I'm better than You. But what is this they are talking about ???
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May I ask a maybe stupid question:
as and non-american I'm not so familiar with the school system, so I don't really understand Lureens comment that she was 'tri-delta' in school and LaShawn was 'kappa-five'. I guess that it is 'better' to be tri-delta, ie Lureen want to show off - I'm better than You. But what is this they are talking about ???
They are talking about their respective memberships in sororities, which are collegiate societies for women. There are fraternities for men. Both types of societies are designated by three Greek letters. Each woman would think that her sorority is best, but some do have more prestige than others. The more prestigious have higher dues and living expenses and more richly furnished houses. Members usually live in their sorority or fraternity house, rather than in a dorm.
My guess is that Lureen's, Delta, Delta, Delta, or 'tri delta', is a more prestigious and costly sorority.
I believe Lashawn belonged to kappa phi, perhaps dropping a letter in its nickname. Could be Kappa, Kappa, Phi, or something like that.
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Angel,
Let's see what Jack23 says, but I would take it as the one most in need of nurturing and protection, the most vulnerable one, so needy but unable to satisfy his needs. In the sense of il più commovente
Of course, there is also the other facet: Ennis is also Jack's hero, the one who is best at shooting, horse-riding, teasing, f**n' etc etc...
Nothing is one dimensional in this story, so no single definition is ever completely acurate
I agree with Jack on this, too. I've used it myself; Ennis is certainly, at least, the Lil dogie, or the motherless calf (no-mom Ennis). He and Jack become each other's families. The runts don't always make it; Jack adopted Ennis in that sense.
I love that interpretation, Jack, Angel, Mouk. Get along lil dogies!!!
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Angel,
Let's see what Jack23 says, but I would take it as the one most in need of nurturing and protection, the most vulnerable one, so needy but unable to satisfy his needs. In the sense of il più commovente
Of course, there is also the other facet: Ennis is also Jack's hero, the one who is best at shooting, horse-riding, teasing, f**n' etc etc...
Nothing is one dimensional in this story, so no single definition is ever completely acurate
I agree with Jack on this, too. I've used it myself; Ennis is certainly, at least, the Lil dogie, or the motherless calf (no-mom Ennis). He and Jack become each other's families. The runts don't always make it; Jack adopted Ennis in that sense.
I love that interpretation, Jack, Angel, Mouk. Get along lil dogies!!!
Runt of the litter AND alpha male?
The two are mutually exclusive, by definition.
While I do see Jack as "adopting" the orphaned Ennis, I still can't accept his being a "runt". A cute little, high maintenance puppy maybe. One that you'd like to pick up and coddle.
He'd be a lot less happy than he was when he and Jack were together, but he would have survived just fine.
Il piu' commovente? Si', l'accetto.
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Angel,
Think of Ennis emotionally as a runt; not physically; plus he was the baby of his family, abandoned by same. They are definitely family in a sense to each other, mother and father, I can say unabashedly, and the roles switch here and there.
Sorry, I think this fits, angelic person. I can't go hombre e hombre on Alpha male with you again; I needed an aspirin ;) so its all yours, sugar... :-*
But the little dog loved by Jack is also a statement about his tortured 3- year old self, I think; He does try to heal his own wounds, to an extent. God, I wish Ennis had seen that more clearly....again, two poor guys, two deuces, no resources, undereducated, few chances to "do better."
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I'm sorry for the interruption, but I have no idea where to post this question and I can't find an appropriate thread. I'm looking for a video that used to be on youtube and no longer is. Can anyone tell me where I should post?
Thanks so much.
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CSI, I swear.... ;)
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I don't understand why the story takes Jack to Mexico to pick up a hustler.
Any one living in Texas in the 60's knows how much gay sex, for free or for $$$, was available in places like Dallas, San Antonio and Houston. All he needed to do is cruise by any Grayhound bus station!
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I don't understand why the story takes Jack to Mexico to pick up a hustler.
Any one living in Texas in the 60's knows how much gay sex, for free or for $$$, was available in places like Dallas, San Antonio and Houston. All he needed to do is cruise by any Grayhound bus station!
I always thought AP used Mexico in a metaphoric sense...the place where "boys like you" could
get their needs met.
Just like "Denver" seems to be the place where their relationship might stand a chance. IMO.
Rick
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Hi Guys, I'm not a regular feature of these threads, but, just wanted to let you know that Sandy and Desperadum are away for most of the weekend, so, if you have any issues whatsoever, please feel free to PM me or any of the other MOD's online and we'll be glad to be of assistance. Have a great weekend. A. ;)
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I don't understand why the story takes Jack to Mexico to pick up a hustler.
Any one living in Texas in the 60's knows how much gay sex, for free or for $$$, was available in places like Dallas, San Antonio and Houston. All he needed to do is cruise by any Grayhound bus station!
I always thought AP used Mexico in a metaphoric sense...the place where "boys like you" could
get their needs met.
Just like "Denver" seems to be the place where their relationship might stand a chance. IMO.
Rick
Maybe Jack preferred Mexico because he thought it was more anonymous. Less likely to run into say a Newsome costumer down there?
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CSI, I swear.... ;)
Understood! :D
So what do you think "..for he loved a little dog" means? No symbolism? It has to say something about his character....right??
Is it the underdog mentality at work, period? I mean, Ennis is also an underdog.... ;) ;) I'll give ya he may not be the 'runt' but that didn;t actually occur to me, and then I sawl these posts. I've always seen it as Ennis being emotionally vulnerable and helpless, and Jack picking up on that.
thoughts?
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I agree. Ennis was vulnerable, lonely, even a bit "damaged" and responsive to Jack from day one.
And yes the "little dog" speaks to Jack's compassionate character, and perhaps to a Peter Pan complex in a way.
I also think that Jack was vulnerable but we are a bit distacted from this by his obviously giving, open and warm personality. Ennis didn't respond to Jack to nurture his vulnerability though as much as he did to avail himself of Jack's company and nurturing. But His love did motivate him order soup, shoot an elk and more. So in a way he also nurtured Jack. and Jack was more high maintenance than Ennis in some ways. He needed more from the relationship and would do almost anything to get it. Ennis needed more also but continued to suppress his own needs and fail to satisfy Jack's in terms of their spending more time together. Jack needed to trick, Ennis did not.
They were each needy in his own way.
And then there's the image, near the start of the film where we see Ennis also carrying a baby lamb with him on his horse, but in the more detached manner of slinging the lamb in canvas which hung from Ennis's horse.
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OMG, OMG--we really do think similiarly, friend!!
I have always noticed the lamb-carrying; and have you noticed? After FNIT and SNIT, we see Aguirre spying Ennis carrying a full sheep-I think- across his lap on this horse! That struck me IMMEDIATELY as his intimacy walls dropping since falling for Jack and become a lover!
Yippeeee! Someone else noticed it!!!!!!!
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CSI,
I'm sitting here like a fool going, right, right ,right! Ennis with the lamb in his lap after SNIT.
I'll PM ya re Labor Day.
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I don't understand why the story takes Jack to Mexico to pick up a hustler.
Any one living in Texas in the 60's knows how much gay sex, for free or for $$$, was available in places like Dallas, San Antonio and Houston. All he needed to do is cruise by any Grayhound bus station!
Hi leonardg,
My own take is that neither Jack nor Ennis were city folk, and trying to navigate the different pace and intricacies of an urban setting might have played havoc with Jack's emerging gaydar. Also, guys in the Texas cities might have wanted to get involved with Jack whereas he could always leave Mexican sexworkers behind without a thought. IMO.
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Why do I put myself through this?
I watched a particularly devastating BBM scene the other
night and, sure enough, it won't let go till I talk about
it. Been mulling it over in the back of my brain for a few
days.
Just as I don't watch the apres-divorce scene anymore,
I'd stopped watching the year after Brokeback scene where
Jack goes hat in hand to Aguirre for a job and a possible word
about Ennis's whereabouts.
Jeez, is this devastating or what?
The look that JG has on his face explains Jack in that moment
so well. He is humbled, humiliated, downcast and so SO sad.
It is heartbreaking.
THIS is the scene that makes me want to jump over that desk
and knock Aguirre through the wall. I wish Jack had stood
up for himself this time. I wish he'd had the gumption to tell
Aguire to, "F**k off!"
But this is the one scene in which Jack actually looks intimidated
AND afraid. Yeah, he doesn't seem to hold any sway with
large, heterosexual behemoths. His charm is nowhere to be seen.
Theres's nothing here that will protect Jack from Aguirre's
hateful scorn.
I mean, the physicality that JG uses to indicate how demeaned
Jack feels in that moment is absolutely perfect. But it is SO hard to
watch. And when he says, "...you have nothing?" He sounds so
desperate for work. Then, he tries, in a pathetic attempt at
nonchalance to bring up Ennis's name as he's almost out the door.
And that's when Aguirre lets him have it.
Jack looks devastated.
No wonder he doesn't tell Ennis the whole truth in the
motel room.
Another nail in his coffin.
I'm thinking.
It wasn't only Ennis who internalized.
Harder for Jack, though, because it wasn't as deeply
embedded in his nature.
So at that point, he's not having any success finding out about
Ennis. I can only wonder how and when he figured out that Ennis
was, indeed, in Riverton. I find it odd that Ennis WOULDN'T have
mentioned where he'd be settling once he married Alma.
But maybe the query to Aguirre was more along the lines of,
is Ennis even alive? Has anyone seen him? Has he been
back to Signal at all? He's desperate for a word from someone,
anyone, that might let him know that Ennis is, indeed,
still in the world with him.
So much information sought from such a pitiful little sentence.
Jeez, what a deadly scene.
No wonder I'd stopped watching it.
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rosewood, I don't get the same vibe from that scene as you. I agree that Jack is intimidated and humiliated but I'm not totally sure that he's demeaned. If you watch that scene, after Aguirre makes his comment about "stemming the rose," Jack looks down at the floor but then lifts his head and looks Aguirre right in the eye. I always felt like it was a small act of defiance or pride on Jack's part. It's like he's saying, "you may have found me out but I'm not going to be ashamed."
Or maybe that's just what I want to read into that scene.
I, too, have always wondered how he found out Ennis was in Riverton. The postcard says, "Heard you was in Riverton." How? From whom? I think that boy did some research. It must of been a lot harder in the pre-Internet days.
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yes, Rosewood, honey, I agree...
along with the "I wish I knew" scene, that moment on film, IMO, is Jake G's greatest acting moment. If it was all he did, it would be worth a 5-minute Oscar.
Not sure how he lost anyway, but ....O/T.
One more thing that always gets me, is how guant and hungry he looks. I get this awful feeling that he has been subjected to the Dad's abuse, and either left sooner than planned, or has just been on the BBM lovesick diet! His beautiful eyes are like desperate saucers in these shrunken sockets, with the dark circles under, etc.
He looked so much better in the trailer the year before.
Life has not been kind to him since parting from Ennis.
I used to and still do see some semblance of respect in the way he nods at Aguirre, right before turning to leave. He is civil and courteous to the nth degree.
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Afraid I can't see much in the way of him standing up to Aguirre. I see a young man who's had a hell of a year, nearly starving, borrowing everything but a toothbrush, and sick with love. (I might be getting my timeframe mixed here but I assume he didn't spend all the intervening months with good old JC Twist - would you?) Is it any wonder he took up with a sassy woman with money?
He looks pretty cowed by Aguirre which makes his turning up there looking for Ennis all the more powerful. He'd stuffed up two years in a row in Aguirre's eyes yet he came back. Of course, the Stemming the rose comment came as a shock.
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yes, Rosewood, honey, I agree...
along with the "I wish I knew" scene, that moment on film, IMO, is Jake G's greatest acting moment. If it was all he did, it would be worth a 5-minute Oscar.
Not sure how he lost anyway, but ....O/T.
One more thing that always gets me, is how guant and hungry he looks. I get this awful feeling that he has been subjected to the Dad's abuse, and either left sooner than planned, or has just been on the BBM lovesick diet! His beautiful eyes are like desperate saucers in these shrunken sockets, with the dark circles under, etc.
He looked so much better in the trailer the year before.
Life has not been kind to him since parting from Ennis.
I used to and still do see some semblance of respect in the way he nods at Aguirre, right before turning to leave. He is civil and courteous to the nth degree.
CSI: I remembered you saying that Jack looked haunted and quoted you that way on a post
in the Dislikes Thread, so pardon me for that. But really, gaunt and hungry, with desperate eyes
is the same as haunted - huh?! So, I'll leave it. :)
As for JG's acting, yeah, it is amazing. He is SO wounded in this scene. As I've said, it is almost
unwatchable for the pain it invokes. Another moment of his that always knocks me out
is the, "...Sometimes I miss you so much, I can't hardly stand it." Just in THE WAY he says
it. The hesitation and then the rush to get the words out in case he should lose his nerve.
AND you know how I feel about his reaction shots in The Reunion scenes.....Jeez.
The fact that this guy didn't get an Oscar for these movie moments of unspeakable,
painful, emotional reality is a sin. Pure and simple.
At least the British Oscars saw the light.
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Oh, I don't doubt that in Texas you can give away L.B. Newsomes as a two-for-one deal; but in art context is all, and in BBM Newsome's two appearances serve rather didactic purposes (another scene which bothers me less, but for the same reason, is the one in which Ennis finds a mauled sheep after the FNIT. It's ninth-grade symbolism)
You don't think any ninth graders saw this film? ;)
Not the most subtle moment ever, but entirely within the context of the film at that moment--Ennis did stay away from the sheep, so the result is not to be unexpected, and it plays in nicely with his guilty frame of mind at that point. Granted, the symbolism of naked Jack by the river is better. ;)
The scene with LD at Thanksgiving obviously is intended as a crowdpleaser, but I have to admit I like seeing Jake stand up to the old bastard. I agree too, it shows the increasing strain this life is for him.
LD is Exhibit One for people who say this film is anti straight male though.
i am jumping here. this post is from page 54 and i haven't read pages 55-74 yet so sorry if this was already said. but as to the bolded part from above, i always saw this scene as 1. a precursor for jack's blow-up during jack and ennis' last scene together (which i know has been stated numerous times before) but also 2. as a contributing reason as to why jack was killed (and yes i believe in the tire iron.) standing up to LD meant jack's proclivity for men, which i think the newsome's at least suspected and probably more than that, could no longer be ignored. jack had "gone too far." JMO
okay, continue with the discussion at hand, which i will catch up to in a couple of hours! :P
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Oh, I don't doubt that in Texas you can give away L.B. Newsomes as a two-for-one deal; but in art context is all, and in BBM Newsome's two appearances serve rather didactic purposes (another scene which bothers me less, but for the same reason, is the one in which Ennis finds a mauled sheep after the FNIT. It's ninth-grade symbolism)
You don't think any ninth graders saw this film? ;)
Not the most subtle moment ever, but entirely within the context of the film at that moment--Ennis did stay away from the sheep, so the result is not to be unexpected, and it plays in nicely with his guilty frame of mind at that point. Granted, the symbolism of naked Jack by the river is better. ;)
The scene with LD at Thanksgiving obviously is intended as a crowdpleaser, but I have to admit I like seeing Jake stand up to the old bastard. I agree too, it shows the increasing strain this life is for him.
LD is Exhibit One for people who say this film is anti straight male though.
i am jumping here. this post is from page 54 and i haven't read pages 55-74 yet so sorry if this was already said. but as to the bolded part from above, i always saw this scene as 1. a precursor for jack's blow-up during jack and ennis' last scene together (which i know has been stated numerous times before) but also 2. as a contributing reason as to why jack was killed (and yes i believe in the tire iron.) standing up to LD meant jack's proclivity for men, which i think the newsome's at least suspected and probably more than that, could no longer be ignored. jack had "gone too far." JMO
okay, continue with the discussion at hand, which i will catch up to in a couple of hours! :P
Hi, Jnov-so you believe Jack was standing up for his right to be 'gay', ie, his son does not have to watch football to be manly? Want to be sure I am following this-this is interesting.
This is leading you to believe there was collusion between LD, maybe Lureen, and some good ol boys against Jack? In the text, LD is dead before Jack.
Again, just want to be sure I am following you! tx.
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yes, Rosewood, honey, I agree...
along with the "I wish I knew" scene, that moment on film, IMO, is Jake G's greatest acting moment. If it was all he did, it would be worth a 5-minute Oscar.
Not sure how he lost anyway, but ....O/T.
One more thing that always gets me, is how guant and hungry he looks. I get this awful feeling that he has been subjected to the Dad's abuse, and either left sooner than planned, or has just been on the BBM lovesick diet! His beautiful eyes are like desperate saucers in these shrunken sockets, with the dark circles under, etc.
He looked so much better in the trailer the year before.
Life has not been kind to him since parting from Ennis.
I used to and still do see some semblance of respect in the way he nods at Aguirre, right before turning to leave. He is civil and courteous to the nth degree.
Yes, CSI, I agree with you and ministering angel when you illustrate the look of hunger/starvation/desperation that Jack has in this scene (he looks so much paler, for a start, than the previous summer), and how respectful and civil his behaviour is towards Aguirre.
I have also read rosewood's and kmich's comments, but I tend to agree with kmich about the fact that despite Aguirre's "stab" at him with the stemming of the rose comment, Jack still manages to glare at him with an act of "defiance".
I also agree with rosewood about Jack's main intention of enquiring whether Ennis had been seen anywhere around. However, I don't agree that Aguirre's overall behaviour in this scene was totally to blame. As much as Aguirre can be seen as a homophobic and tough/rude/abrupt employer, his main interest is still his profit, and it's plain obvious that at the end of the summer of '63 he was not satisfied with Ennis and Jack's job as sheepherders, and was unlikely to hire them again the next summer, even if he hadn't found out about their "extracurricular activities", so to speak. I think he's mostly dissatisfied with them because they neglected their duties to sleep with the sheep and "let the dogs babysit" them instead, rather than because they engaged in sex. Of course I feel sorry for Jack in this scene, but I also I think from Aguirre's perspective he does have a point in what he tells Jack when he comes back the next summer hoping to be hired again and I can't really blame him for telling Jack plainly that they didn't do a good job the previous summer. IMHO, of course.
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Free,
I agree and stated alot earlier that alot of Aguirre's contempt has to do with Jack's seeming unreliability, in a harsh job. He is a rancher, and his main point of anger initially was the 25% profit loss on the sheep from the previous summer-"I don't want that again"-and he does, however unfairly, blame Jack.
So add Jack dilly-dallying, in Aguirre's eyes, with the new kid, Ennis, and Aguirre's reaction is one of total contempt. In his eyes, Jack will not only f-up; he will bring others down with him.
As a manager in both production and service environments, one of the most unmanagable 'types' is a loose cannon, and I think Aguirre has Jack pegged that way.
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Has anyone discussed the scene where Ennis & Jack leave each other after the first time at BBM - when Ennis collapses into tears and possibly vomits?! What is your take on it? Do you think he is so upset because he realizes that he loves Jack OR he is upset at what he had done???
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Hi, Jnov-so you believe Jack was standing up for his right to be 'gay', ie, his son does not have to watch football to be manly? Want to be sure I am following this-this is interesting.
This is leading you to believe there was collusion between LD, maybe Lureen, and some good ol boys against Jack? In the text, LD is dead before Jack.
Again, just want to be sure I am following you! tx.
CSI,
hi. and no i don't think jack was standing up for his right be gay. i think he was just standing up for himself as the head of his household and as a man in the family. after he yells at LD we can see his hands visably shaking, he rubs his forehead, as if saying "god i hate being here and everything about being here" and he has to steady himself before picking up the carving knife. i think he was just pushes to the edge re: the amount of humiliation he would take from LD in his own house.
as for the killing. when i watched the movie (and i am not discussing the book at all, only the movie) after hearing the phone call between ennis and lureen, my gut reaction was the newsomes had him killed. but it wasn't an articulated thought at that point just a gut reaction. when i tried to write out that thought in a post i realized how ridiculous it was. but i do still think that jack's refusal to continue in his role as bashing boy (oh god, that just came out, not trying to belittle bashing!!!!! but in fact it goes right to what i am saying.) got him bashed.
gotta run now. cab is waiting for me. will clarify later if need be.
;D
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Hi, Jnov-so you believe Jack was standing up for his right to be 'gay', ie, his son does not have to watch football to be manly? Want to be sure I am following this-this is interesting.
This is leading you to believe there was collusion between LD, maybe Lureen, and some good ol boys against Jack? In the text, LD is dead before Jack.
Again, just want to be sure I am following you! tx.
CSI,
hi. and no i don't think jack was standing up for his right be gay. i think he was just standing up for himself as the head of his household and as a man in the family. after he yells at LD we can see his hands visably shaking, he rubs his forehead, as if saying "god i hate being here and everything about being here" and he has to steady himself before picking up the carving knife. i think he was just pushes to the edge re: the amount of humiliation he would take from LD in his own house.
as for the killing. when i watched the movie (and i am not discussing the book at all, only the movie) after hearing the phone call between ennis and lureen, my gut reaction was the newsomes had him killed. but it wasn't an articulated thought at that point just a gut reaction. when i tried to write out that thought in a post i realized how ridiculous it was. but i do still think that jack's refusal to continue in his role as bashing boy (oh god, that just came out, not trying to belittle bashing!!!!! but in fact it goes right to what i am saying.) got him bashed.
gotta run now. cab is waiting for me. will clarify later if need be.
;D
I agree with alot of what you are saying; I just didn't understand the "standing up to LD meant Jack's proclivity for men" reference, and how this plays out in him standing up to LD. What am I missing here? Thorry to be thick....
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CSI
my fault. i am not articulating well. :-\
2. as a contributing reason as to why jack was killed (and yes i believe in the tire iron.) standing up to LD meant jack's proclivity for men, which i think the newsome's at least suspected and probably more than that, could no longer be ignored. jack had "gone too far."
i'm re-quoting myself so i can see the words i used while i try to explain!
LD always looked down on jack. the comment that the guys in the office make "isn't that the pissant that tried to ride bulls" (or words to that effect) i think clearly sum up pretty much every "family" man's opinion of jack in texas. i think LD agreed that jack was a pissant, not a man and LD continuously put jack down both publicly and privately. and he probably enjoyed doing it because he knew (or at the very least suspected) that jack had a thing for the guys. but as long as he was the son-in-law who allowed himself to be put down publicly and privately than that part of jack's personality could be overlooked because he behaved in accordance with LD's opinion of a "pansy-assed queer" would behave, i.e. he did not stand up for himself, he allowed himself to be humiliated. jack knew his position and he behaved accordingly.
so once jack no longer behaved accordingly, once jack behaved as a "man" and stood up for himself; once he refused to be the "pansy-assed queer" that LD knew him to be, then his queerness could no longer be overlooked. jack had tried to be a man when he wasn't (in LD's eyes) so he had to be taught a lesson. and that lesson was 'those kind of people don't live here.' literally.
do i really think LD put out a contract on jack's head and paid someone to kill him. no. but i do think that once LD let it be know throughout the male community that jack had overstepped his bounds and was no longer welcomed, (and all it would take was a few barely veiled comments about jack being too big for his britches) that the protection he had been afforded as LD's son-in-law went out the window and it was just a matter of time before the men in the community "did what needed to be done."
any clearer? ???
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Has anyone discussed the scene where Ennis & Jack leave each other after the first time at BBM - when Ennis collapses into tears and possibly vomits?! What is your take on it? Do you think he is so upset because he realizes that he loves Jack OR he is upset at what he had done???
There is no guilt. I think there is no question it is because he has lost something he had never experienced before, not only the great sex, but companionship and caring from another human being. Jack gets him to open up, laugh, enjoy life. In the short story Annie P. writes that as he headed back to the pup tent after an evening with Jack ( no sex at this point) that "he'd never had such a good time, felt he could paw the white out of the moon." and at their reunion in the motel he said,
" When we split up after we got paid up, I had gut cramps so bad I puled over and tried to puke....... Took me about a year a figure out it was that I shouldn't a let you out my sights. Too late then by a long, long shot."
Too late in Ennis's mind at least.
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Agreed with Rosewood, CSI and Mini.
I also agree with rosewood about Jack's main intention of enquiring whether Ennis had been seen anywhere around. However, I don't agree that Aguirre's overall behaviour in this scene was totally to blame. As much as Aguirre can be seen as a homophobic and tough/rude/abrupt employer, his main interest is still his profit, and it's plain obvious that at the end of the summer of '63 he was not satisfied with Ennis and Jack's job as sheepherders, and was unlikely to hire them again the next summer, even if he hadn't found out about their "extracurricular activities", so to speak. I think he's mostly dissatisfied with them because they neglected their duties to sleep with the sheep and "let the dogs babysit" them instead, rather than because they engaged in sex. Of course I feel sorry for Jack in this scene, but I also I think from Aguirre's perspective he does have a point in what he tells Jack when he comes back the next summer hoping to be hired again and I can't really blame him for telling Jack plainly that they didn't do a good job the previous summer. IMHO, of course.
Freetraveller,
i'm not totally disagreeing with you. What he cares about the most is his money and if those two were doing their job. However IMO in Aguirre's mind showing tolerance even in an indirect way(even if none else but only him knew about J&E and what they were doing up there-even if they were excellent workers) was s'thing unacceptable. It was s'thing he couldn't do. Hiring Jack again was like accepting/being tolerant towards queer behaviour, at least this is how he would interpreted it in his mind, IMO. The fact that he knew (even if none else knew that Aguirre knew about it)what was going on was enough for him to act....
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CSI
my fault. i am not articulating well. :-\
2. as a contributing reason as to why jack was killed (and yes i believe in the tire iron.) standing up to LD meant jack's proclivity for men, which i think the newsome's at least suspected and probably more than that, could no longer be ignored. jack had "gone too far."
i'm re-quoting myself so i can see the words i used while i try to explain!
LD always looked down on jack. the comment that the guys in the office make "isn't that the pissant that tried to ride bulls" (or words to that effect) i think clearly sum up pretty much every "family" man's opinion of jack in texas. i think LD agreed that jack was a pissant, not a man and LD continuously put jack down both publicly and privately. and he probably enjoyed doing it because he knew (or at the very least suspected) that jack had a thing for the guys. but as long as he was the son-in-law who allowed himself to be put down publicly and privately than that part of jack's personality could be overlooked because he behaved in accordance with LD's opinion of a "pansy-assed queer" would behave, i.e. he did not stand up for himself, he allowed himself to be humiliated. jack knew his position and he behaved accordingly.
so once jack no longer behaved accordingly, once jack behaved as a "man" and stood up for himself; once he refused to be the "pansy-assed queer" that LD knew him to be, then his queerness could no longer be overlooked. jack had tried to be a man when he wasn't (in LD's eyes) so he had to be taught a lesson. and that lesson was 'those kind of people don't live here.' literally.
do i really think LD put out a contract on jack's head and paid someone to kill him. no. but i do think that once LD let it be know throughout the male community that jack had overstepped his bounds and was no longer welcomed, (and all it would take was a few barely veiled comments about jack being too big for his britches) that the protection he had been afforded as LD's son-in-law went out the window and it was just a matter of time before the men in the community "did what needed to be done."
any clearer? ???
yes, thanks. I agree with it first time, just wanted to be sure I was getting it. This is somewhat OT, but have you wondered-if you read the book or have read it-at the fact of LD being dead, then Jack dies not too long thereafter? Did someone wait for LD to be gone, so the onus would not be on the family? That almost takes the argument completely away from the ranch neighbor, too. It makes Jack's passing part of the long-term resentment brewing between Jack and LD, which erupts at the dinner. And that resentment started very early; we see it with the baby.
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i am so glad you responded to this post because i was thinking about it earlier today and i wanted to add something but for the life of me couldn't remember which thread i put it on! :D
i did read the short story once.
(and kill me now, i must admit that, although i loved the short story, i only loved it because i had seen the movie first. when i try to read any of her other stories i just can not get into them. i can't get past the language, oddly enough. to me it feels cold, and forced and i can not get past it to hear the characters or feel any emotion. don't worry. my friends have already told me how pathetic i am for having this reaction. ;) i am however loving reading the posts that are dissecting the language of the story, practically word by word! but i'll leave that up to those of you who are better equipped for it! ;D
i do know that in the story LD is dead before jack is dead but i don't think about the story, only the movie. it would contribute to the idea that LD somehow provided jack a measure of protection from the rest of the male community in texas and once LD was dead that protection was gone.
i also starting to think, having put my thoughts into words, that perhaps my implication that jack's killing was wished for by LD, perhaps even consciously provoked by him might be a little far-fetched. i was thinking back over how we see jack becoming more and more frustrated with his life in texas and i was thinking how those frustrations could lead him to take more and more risks as he reacts to the frustrations.
we see the possible liaison with randall. (and i say possible because i am very leery to give randall any significance in the story other than more evidence of jack's frustration and possible evidence of his risk-taking). we see him blow up at LD. then he blows up at ennis. then we hear that he was at least entertaining the thought of leaving his wife.
when someone is frustrated with their life, they usually react to those frustrations in fits and bursts. taking a chance on the spur of the moment when emotions get the best of them. not thinking things through as usual. or even doing something risky as an act of deviance, knowing it is a bad idea at the time.
so maybe it was a combination of all this (as most everything is not just one thing or another). more risk taking on jack's part AND more vehemence and harsh comments by LD that pushed the male community (or at least three or four of them) into being able and willing to do something this extreme, i.e. kill jack
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i am watching the movie (i have it on pause right now) and it just occurred to me that the thanksgiving scene follows directly after the divorce/mexico scene.
and for the first time it really struck me how rejected jack must have felt when ennis pushed him away after the divorce. for the first time jack really knows that it is not ennis' circumstances that is keeping him from fully loving jack but it is ennis himself. and that must hurt so bad!!
and it is directly after this that jack goes to mexico, in my opinion for the first time, and then follows immediately thanksgiving and jack blowing up at LD.
yea i know. duh.
but i am just now fully feeling and understanding the frustration and the feeling of being trapped that jack must be feeling at this point in his life. god, poor jack. :'(
and i am not belittling ennis' pain but... god, poor jack!
and speaking of ennis, i have decided my favorite scene of this movie is the "haven't spoken that much in two weeks" scene. i love seeing ennis relax, finally just relax and be comfortable in his own skin. he has finally found a friend, probably his first real friend in a very long time and he is so enjoying the companionship and comradery of jack. and it is before FNIT and before ennis must start warring with himself about whether he is gay or not. he is just happy. i love this part of the movie!!!
but god, poor jack! :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(
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i am watching the movie (i have it on pause right now) and it just occurred to me that the thanksgiving scene follows directly after the divorce/mexico scene.
and for the first time it really struck me how rejected jack must have felt when ennis pushed him away after the divorce. for the first time jack really knows that it is not ennis' circumstances that is keeping him from fully loving jack but it is ennis himself. and that must hurt so bad!!
and it is directly after this that jack goes to mexico, in my opinion for the first time, and then follows immediately thanksgiving and jack blowing up at LD.
yea i know. duh.
but i am just now fully feeling and understanding the frustration and the feeling of being trapped that jack must be feeling at this point in his life. god, poor jack. :'(
and i am not belittling ennis' pain but... god, poor jack!
and speaking of ennis, i have decided my favorite scene of this movie is the "haven't spoken that much in two weeks" scene. i love seeing ennis relax, finally just relax and be comfortable in his own skin. he has finally found a friend, probably his first real friend in a very long time and he is so enjoying the companionship and comradery of jack. and it is before FNIT and before ennis must start warring with himself about whether he is gay or not. he is just happy. i love this part of the movie!!!
but god, poor jack! :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(
Why didn't Jack fight a little harder in that divorce scene? It's not that simple in my opinion. We have two people interacting with their strengths and weaknesses. It is not just Ennis being mean to Jack.
And I totally agree that scene where Ennis smiles for the first time and shows us his quiet wit was wonderful. :)
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ennis won't even look jack in the eye in that scene! and then the truck drives by and you can see jack understanding how hopeless it is. and i would think it would take herculean strength of ego after being slapped down the way jack is by ennis for jack to continue to plead and beg for ennis to give in a little.
i am not saying that ennis is the evil one. i understand ennis and so does jack. but that doesn't lessen the disappointment, the pain that jack must have felt. to go from the elation he was feeling when he pulled in to the utter defeat when he pulled out.
and it is again after this that ennis allows himself to get the sht kicked out of him after thanksgiving. i think because he hates himself for how much he disappoints jack. he knows jack wants more, he knows jack deserves more and he knows he disappoints jack. but for the life of him, literally, ennis can not give it. and he hates himself for that weakness.
that is what makes this a tragedy. ennis' fatal flaw is fear and jack's fatal flaw is loving a fearful man.
but then i love that we see them together, riding through the mountains after that so we know they both understand that underneath all their weaknesses and limitations, they both still love each other. and that is what can not be denied.
but i also came back here to say (as i continue to watch the movie), the scene when ennis is washing the dishes in the river and he asks jack if lureen suspects. then he asks if jack ever gets the feeling people look at him and know. what struck me this time watching (i think i have finally watched it so many times that the pain has subsided enough for me to catch things i never caught before because i was just in too much pain watching) was ennis using the word "know." he doesn't say "do you think people might suspect" (like he asked about lureen), he doesn't say "do you think people think." he says "like people know." which means on some level ennis must know. at this point in his life, he is divorced, he has no interest in other women, he knows. how much he is willing to articulate to himself, i won't say. but i think at this point ennis knows he is queer and he loves jack.
and i know that this has been discussed many, many times by people far quicker than me! :D
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just finished watching. you know that part i said in my above post about the pain subsiding. forget it.
lots of pain.
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that is what makes this a tragedy. ennis' fatal flaw is fear and jack's fatal flaw is loving a fearful man.
Yes, you've dissected it well. This is essentially what it boils down to: fatal flaws.
Though Ennis loves Jack (and probably knows it, as you so rightly interpret)
he is incapable of accepting Jack's love if it comes with requirements.
This whole damn story is all about Jack trying to pretend he's got no
requirements and Ennis pretending he doesn't see them.
If 'love' were easy, everyone would do it. :)
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Let me just throw this out there for you to consider. Jack gets a post card from Ennis telling him that he's divorced. Nothing else. On the basis of that, and that alone, knowing full well what Ennis and he have discussed before, he jumps in his truck and drives 1,200 miles, without calling Ennis, or sending him a letter, without making any arrangements to divorce his wife, or say goodbye to his son, or pack his possesions and arrives at Ennis's doorstep and announces "Well, here I am!" Ennis has his daughters for the weekend, is confused but obviously not able to do anything right that weekend. Withing five minutes Jack gives up, and leaves in tears. Why is this Ennis' fault alone? What should Ennis have said? " Ok bud great. Let me drop them off with Alma and lets go look for a ranch together? " Why didn't Jack say," Ennis, look I understand about the girls, let me get a motel room and we'll talk about this Sunday might. Big decision we have to make, bud. I'm not taking no for an answer until we talk."
We are always so focused on Ennis that we miss Jack's involvement in the unfolding tragedy.
I'll take the rest of my analysis to The Jack Twist character thread.
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i am so glad you responded to this post because i was thinking about it earlier today and i wanted to add something but for the life of me couldn't remember which thread i put it on! :D
i did read the short story once.
(and kill me now, i must admit that, although i loved the short story, i only loved it because i had seen the movie first. when i try to read any of her other stories i just can not get into them. i can't get past the language, oddly enough. to me it feels cold, and forced and i can not get past it to hear the characters or feel any emotion. don't worry. my friends have already told me how pathetic i am for having this reaction. ;) i am however loving reading the posts that are dissecting the language of the story, practically word by word! but i'll leave that up to those of you who are better equipped for it! ;D
i do know that in the story LD is dead before jack is dead but i don't think about the story, only the movie. it would contribute to the idea that LD somehow provided jack a measure of protection from the rest of the male community in texas and once LD was dead that protection was gone.
i also starting to think, having put my thoughts into words, that perhaps my implication that jack's killing was wished for by LD, perhaps even consciously provoked by him might be a little far-fetched. i was thinking back over how we see jack becoming more and more frustrated with his life in texas and i was thinking how those frustrations could lead him to take more and more risks as he reacts to the frustrations.
we see the possible liaison with randall. (and i say possible because i am very leery to give randall any significance in the story other than more evidence of jack's frustration and possible evidence of his risk-taking). we see him blow up at LD. then he blows up at ennis. then we hear that he was at least entertaining the thought of leaving his wife.
when someone is frustrated with their life, they usually react to those frustrations in fits and bursts. taking a chance on the spur of the moment when emotions get the best of them. not thinking things through as usual. or even doing something risky as an act of deviance, knowing it is a bad idea at the time.
so maybe it was a combination of all this (as most everything is not just one thing or another). more risk taking on jack's part AND more vehemence and harsh comments by LD that pushed the male community (or at least three or four of them) into being able and willing to do something this extreme, i.e. kill jack
He was a risk-taker, in certain facets of his life. He needed very badly to connect with those he cared about....
I said in the NQ thread something similiar to what you are saying here: I don't see anything amiss with thinking it is his long-term risk taking, w/wo Randall involved, that 'got him killed', if you buy the tire iron. I mean, it could've been for any one of a number of trips across the border; fliratations; rodeo contacts, etc. All the things Jack was driven to-we assume-by Ennis' inattention and unwillingness to be with Jack on a live-in basis-where Jack's needs for love and affection and connection could get fulfilled as they came up.
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yea, what she said. ;D
and i won't go within a hundred feet of the Q/NQ thread! :o
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I said in the NQ thread ....
Which thread?? Oh, you mean the Q thread ;).
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{pulls out Aguirre binoculars, looking for them there mods.....must be out stemming the rose, ahem, the 'other' meaning}
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Thanks for that clarificatin Vermont Sunset! I did in fact purchase and read the ss and screenplay so got that answer for myself. I WISH the movie included more of Ennis sharing his feelings with Jack. After seeing the movie I wasn't sure Jack knew how much Ennis loved him until their last scene together but after reading the ss I realized Jack knew all along...
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Thanks for that clarificatin Vermont Sunset! I did in fact purchase and read the ss and screenplay so got that answer for myself. I WISH the movie included more of Ennis sharing his feelings with Jack. After seeing the movie I wasn't sure Jack knew how much Ennis loved him until their last scene together but after reading the ss I realized Jack knew all along...
BBM-please expand on that great line above?: I will enjoy hearing you point out the stuff of it!!
tx.
CSI
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But he hasn't. I would be interested too.
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CSI & Mini, may i give it a shot here?
I don't think Jack ever wondered if Ennis loved him. What i think he might have done was asking himself: "does he love me AS MUCH AS i do?". And that because of Ennis constant refusals. I'm pretty sure that at some point Jack did that. To compare himself with Ennis, i mean . Jack always had been ready to abandon everything in no time just to be with him while Ennis never had. But he (Ennis) did come back for their meetings and that was a proof of Ennis love. After the post-divorce scene Ennis sent Jack away and that was a punch in the guts or if you want another punch in Jack's face. Jack said: "you won't catch me again" but apparently Ennis did and Jack couldn't explain why and how. Jack's reaction to show up unexpectedly at hearing Ennis news and then to head down to Mexico says one thing, IMO. That Jack's hopes were so strong that he seemed to forget the reasons Ennis had told him about why they never could be together. And i don't think Jack realised how much at odds Ennis was with himself till their last time together came. After the post-divorce scene their relationship declined considerably and then here we are at the scene with Jack and Randall and at the end at their last time together. In that last scene i think Jack saw Ennis inner confliction and his fears again (as Ennis had stated them 16 years ago, in the reunion) and at the same time he became unaware of the strenght of Ennis love thru the realisation of Ennis sacrifices. And MAYBE the DE which Jack recalled is him realising that Ennis loved him unconditionally, with his whole body and soul but in his unique way. And maybe for Jack it was they never got much further than that but for Ennis (and Jack realised that) was the furthest they could go because Ennis had reached the point of the unconditional love in his heart and mind and so let be let be Jack thought.
(i might be wrong here as much as i might be right. I'll wait to see if i need to reconcider.)
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While we're waiting :) - I wonder if BBM means the reunion scene in the book? Ennis tells Jack that he realised 3 years ago that he should never have let him out of his sights. It's quite a strong admission, coming from Ennis. So in the book, Jack knows right from then that there's some strong feeling there, even if they don't call it 'love'.
Gres, in the book, they DID get further than that, if you're on the 'no kiss' side ;D. In the book, I think the reunion is a big step forward for them - they embrace face to face, and Ennis admits how he feels about Jack [and Jack admits that wants Ennis to live with him - that's in the film too, but the rest isn't]. It is a significant bit further on than they were on Brokeback.
But I don't think 'unconditional' is quite the right word. I think I know what you mean - that Ennis is able to overcome his obstacles to get that far. But then he only gets that step farther at the reunion and then no farther than that. I don't think he ever gets to a stage where he's comfortable about it. And I do think that's important - Ennis isn't just being fearful or reluctant or unable to commit, he has a deep, entrenched feeling that he can't do it.
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I'm on the "kiss" side so...
And with the unconditionally i meant that in Ennis mind and heart it was unconditional and this is what Jack realised
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Yes, I think the emotion is unconditional-it's the conditions that are unconditional; Ennis can't budge-he can't get too close; they 'can't hardly be decent' if they are around each other in civilization. I can't even begin to imagine what that indicates about what went on up on BBM-that is one of reasons I can't imagine N-K--s.
;D ;D ;D ;D
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'No kiss' warning
But that's it, I think, CSI. Ennis didn't expect this to happen BECAUSE they didn't kiss on the mountain. I don't think Ennis thinks too deeply about what might happen, but his instinct is to embrace Jack face to face - and I think that's as far as his thinking gets - a manly hug. But the moment they connect it all comes out - they've both realised what they feel for each other while they've been apart and the hug unexpectedly turns into a passionate kiss.
And that's the really sad thing - Ennis makes this leap and can embrace/kiss face to face [and face up to his feelings about Jack to some extent too]. But because it felt uncontrollable at the time, he feels that he really can't control it - that that sort of thing might happen again. He scares himself. So at the same time as that big step forward, he takes a little step back. The kiss makes him more afraid.
So, of course, they NEVER do it again - not as far as we can see anyway. They never ever meet up anywhere remotely public, in case that thing comes over them.
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'No kiss' warning
But that's it, I think, CSI. Ennis didn't expect this to happen BECAUSE they didn't kiss on the mountain. I don't think Ennis thinks too deeply about what might happen, but his instinct is to embrace Jack face to face - and I think that's as far as his thinking gets - a manly hug. But the moment they connect it all comes out - they've both realised what they feel for each other while they've been apart and the hug unexpectedly turns into a passionate kiss.
And that's the really sad thing - Ennis makes this leap and can embrace/kiss face to face [and face up to his feelings about Jack to some extent too]. But because it felt uncontrollable at the time, he feels that he really can't control it - that that sort of thing might happen again. He scares himself. So at the same time as that big step forward, he takes a little step back. The kiss makes him more afraid.
So, of course, they NEVER do it again - not as far as we can see anyway. They never ever meet up anywhere remotely public, in case that thing comes over them.
Not to prolong this, but I still think it is about doing it in public-that is Ennis' great fear. I think he became accustomed to Jack in the invisbility up on BBM; I think the DE is going beyond the erotic kiss, even though he did not feel comfortable standing and holding Jack in repose face to face.
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But Jack KNOWS that Ennis won't embrace him face to face. He couldn't have known that from the dozy embrace itself, because he doesn't try to change the direction of the embrace. He also doesn't qualify it - he doesn't say that Ennis wouldn't embrace him face to face, except when kissing or during sex. It's not at all. Not even when they say goodbye.
Either way, the reunion kiss sets them back even as it moves them forward.
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But Jack KNOWS that Ennis won't embrace him face to face. He couldn't have known that from the dozy embrace itself, because he doesn't try to change the direction of the embrace. He also doesn't qualify it - he doesn't say that Ennis wouldn't embrace him face to face, except when kissing or during sex. It's not at all. Not even when they say goodbye.
Either way, the reunion kiss sets them back even as it moves them forward.
That brings up something else: They never actually say goodbye. My theory is Ennis could no more say Goodbye than he could force out I love you. Anything too profound, and he can't make it come out of this mouth; hence the dry heaves. Nothing is coming out but emotion.
And I try to remember one thing about that DE: It was sexless, so Jack was isolating it in that sense from their other activities.
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That's a point about the goodbyes, although 'see you around' is a kind of 'au revoir' type goodbye. There's something fateful about '..there was forty feet of distance between them and nothing to do but drive away in opposite directions'. You want to jump and say 'But there IS something to do! Turn around!'. They don't know what to do at all. This is just after the punch too.
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Something funny going on - I thought I'd noted a reply from Desecra re. the reunion kiss setting them back as it brought them forward but now I can't find it. I'm sure it was on this thread. Ho hum, I'll answer here anyway.
As ever, Des, a great explanation. The thing that "scares the piss outa" Ennis is the uncontrollable nature of his feelings. If they'd had that mad uncontrollable passion on the mountain it wouldn't have come as such a shock to Ennis when he experienced it at the reunion. Likely, he would have exercised considerably more caution and not gone the hug in the first place, knowing where it might lead. If he had had any idea of how they would react to one another it's quite possible that his reply postcard to Jack wouldn't have said "You bet" but instead would have suggested some private place where they could meet up discreetly.
It's the bittersweet aspect of this story once again. All the good and wonderful is tainted. The very nature of their passion, the depth and breadth, the helplessness of their love for each other - all the stuff that has us entranced - is the thing that causes Ennis to run screaming from Jack's proposal. Hell and damnation, sometimes I just want to chuck this tale and reread Winnie The Pooh.
I have a question for the Kissers although I guess it should be on the Relationship thread, or maybe the Last Scene with J&E as it involves the DE. This gets complicated. Anyway, I want to know why they think that comment about Ennis not embracing Jack f2f is there. No, I'll head for the Relationship thread.
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Winnie The Pooh.
:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
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That brings up something else: They never actually say goodbye. My theory is Ennis could no more say Goodbye than he could force out I love you. Anything too profound, and he can't make it come out of this mouth; hence the dry heaves. Nothing is coming out but emotion.
And I try to remember one thing about that DE: It was sexless, so Jack was isolating it in that sense from their other activities.
That's a point about the goodbyes, although 'see you around' is a kind of 'au revoir' type goodbye. There's something fateful about '..there was forty feet of distance between them and nothing to do but drive away in opposite directions'. You want to jump and say 'But there IS something to do! Turn around!'. They don't know what to do at all. This is just after the punch too.
About the goodbyes, i was just thinking today that in the scene in the short story when they part for the first time Ennis says "see you around" but that is in response to Jack's " going back up to my daddy's place.........then maybe head out for Texas......if the draft don't get me". I think Ennis leaves everything up to Jack. He says "see you around" but then Jack says that he might be almost anywhere and that Ennis might not be able to find him even if he wanted to (this is the reason of the addittion "if draft don't get me"-indirectly he says that he might not be even alive) . So at this PARTICULAR moment after "the headlong, irreversible fall" Ennis really says goodbye and despite his words he has decided that he will never see Jack again-he has already start seeing BBM as "the imaginary place of which nothing was left...... " It is only after a year that he realises that he shouldn't have let Jack out of his sight. And the dirty punch is only a good excuse to justify to himself or to Jack his inaction to try to find Jack (he said Jack see you around but he never goes to find him while Jack does)-And in the reunion we have Ennis to be avoiding to ask whose fault that was-He feels guilty by the moment he realised that he shouldn't have let Jack out of his eyes.
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That brings up something else: They never actually say goodbye. My theory is Ennis could no more say Goodbye than he could force out I love you. Anything too profound, and he can't make it come out of this mouth; hence the dry heaves. Nothing is coming out but emotion.
And I try to remember one thing about that DE: It was sexless, so Jack was isolating it in that sense from their other activities.
That's a point about the goodbyes, although 'see you around' is a kind of 'au revoir' type goodbye. There's something fateful about '..there was forty feet of distance between them and nothing to do but drive away in opposite directions'. You want to jump and say 'But there IS something to do! Turn around!'. They don't know what to do at all. This is just after the punch too.
About the goodbyes, i was just thinking today that in the scene in the short story when they part for the first time Ennis says "see you around" but that is in response to Jack's " going back up to my daddy's place.........then maybe head out for Texas......if the draft don't get me". I think Ennis leaves everything up to Jack. He says "see you around" but then Jack says that he might be almost anywhere and that Ennis might not be able to find him even if he wanted to (this is the reason of the addittion "if draft don't get me"-indirectly he says that he might not be even alive) . So at this PARTICULAR moment after "the headlong, irreversible fall" Ennis really says goodbye and despite his words he has decided that he will never see Jack again-he has already start seeing BBM as "the imaginary place of which nothing was left...... " It is only after a year that he realises that he shouldn't have let Jack out of his sight. And the dirty punch is only a good excuse to justify to himself or to Jack his inaction to try to find Jack (he said Jack see you around but he never goes to find him while Jack does)-And in the reunion we have Ennis to be avoiding to ask whose fault that was-He feels guilty by the moment he realised that he shouldn't have let Jack out of his eyes.
I agree Ennis felt guilty about the punch-'I figured you was sore from that punch'-he removes himself from it; but I see him as blaming Jack, when he forebears to ask who's fault that was-'I about give up on you'-he was expecting Jack to come find him. It did not occur to him Jack was hungry, lonely and desperate, so sought out a marriage, that after 4 years apart, a child, a good job, still is not enough to quench Jack's needs.
I think he mostly feels regret that he alllowed them to lose touch on BBM-so I think in the book is partly taking accountability for that. But once the marriage to Alma and the kids happened, Ennis was committed-if unhappy.
Then......Jack.
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I agree Ennis felt guilty about the punch-'I figured you was sore from that punch'-he removes himself from it; but I see him as blaming Jack, when he forebears to ask who's fault that was-'I about give up on you'-he was expecting Jack to come find him. It did not occur to him Jack was hungry, lonely and desperate, so sought out a marriage, that after 4 years apart, a child, a good job, still is not enough to quench Jack's needs.
I think he mostly feels regret that he alllowed them to lose touch on BBM-so I think in the book is partly taking accountability for that. But once the marriage to Alma and the kids happened, Ennis was committed-if unhappy.
Then......Jack.
CSI,
I think he avoids to ask because he doesn't want to hear what Jack might have to say and he feels guilty for his immobility-his strong feelings in the reunion make him feel guilty in his heart. Ennis forbears to ask, as you say but keep in mind that Jack has already told him that he had gone back to Aguirre's -Jack says: "i was back there the next June, thinkin about going back" and therefore looked for Ennis but Ennis didn't do a thing-Despite his "see you around" he never tried to see him again. Also i think he doesn't want to let Jack know about his guilts because he is about to tell Jack how things would be btw them and he knows that he can't do that if he openly pleads guilty to Jack. On the other hand and now that i'm rethinking of it, Ennis not trying as Jack did is a hidden sign of not accepting his sexuality-he didn't want to make a move which would count as seeking a man in his mind- this might look like queer and he is not queer-pretense, pretense, pretense.
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I agree Ennis felt guilty about the punch-'I figured you was sore from that punch'-he removes himself from it; but I see him as blaming Jack, when he forebears to ask who's fault that was-'I about give up on you'-he was expecting Jack to come find him. It did not occur to him Jack was hungry, lonely and desperate, so sought out a marriage, that after 4 years apart, a child, a good job, still is not enough to quench Jack's needs.
I think he mostly feels regret that he alllowed them to lose touch on BBM-so I think in the book is partly taking accountability for that. But once the marriage to Alma and the kids happened, Ennis was committed-if unhappy.
Then......Jack.
CSI,
I think he avoids to ask because he doesn't want to hear what Jack might have to say and he feels guilty for his immobility-his strong feelings in the reunion make him feel guilty in his heart. Ennis forbears to ask, as you say but keep in mind that Jack has already told him that he had gone back to Aguirre's -Jack says: "i was back there the next June, thinkin about going back" and therefore looked for Ennis but Ennis didn't do a thing-Despite his "see you around" he never tried to see him again. Also i think he doesn't want to let Jack know about his guilts because he is about to tell Jack how things would be btw them and he knows that he can't do that if he openly pleads guilty to Jack. On the other hand and now that i'm rethinking of it, Ennis not trying as Jack did is a hidden sign of not accepting his sexuality-he didn't want to make a move which would count as seeking a man in his mind- this might look like queer and he is not queer-pretense, pretense, pretense.
Agree 100% with that sentence!
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I agree Ennis felt guilty about the punch-'I figured you was sore from that punch'-he removes himself from it; but I see him as blaming Jack, when he forebears to ask who's fault that was-'I about give up on you'-he was expecting Jack to come find him. It did not occur to him Jack was hungry, lonely and desperate, so sought out a marriage, that after 4 years apart, a child, a good job, still is not enough to quench Jack's needs.
I think he mostly feels regret that he alllowed them to lose touch on BBM-so I think in the book is partly taking accountability for that. But once the marriage to Alma and the kids happened, Ennis was committed-if unhappy.
Then......Jack.
CSI,
I think he avoids to ask because he doesn't want to hear what Jack might have to say and he feels guilty for his immobility-his strong feelings in the reunion make him feel guilty in his heart. Ennis forbears to ask, as you say but keep in mind that Jack has already told him that he had gone back to Aguirre's -Jack says: "i was back there the next June, thinkin about going back" and therefore looked for Ennis but Ennis didn't do a thing-Despite his "see you around" he never tried to see him again. Also i think he doesn't want to let Jack know about his guilts because he is about to tell Jack how things would be btw them and he knows that he can't do that if he openly pleads guilty to Jack. On the other hand and now that i'm rethinking of it, Ennis not trying as Jack did is a hidden sign of not accepting his sexuality-he didn't want to make a move which would count as seeking a man in his mind- this might look like queer and he is not queer-pretense, pretense, pretense.
Agree 100% with that sentence!
I think the motel scene is beautiful...even more so than the book's description. When Ennis - all hurt, and in love and trapped in his own skin rubs Jack's arm in response to "Old Brokeback got us good, didn't it?", it rings so true to his nature and speaks so loudly of his conundrum...it's one of the most honest scenes in the movie, in my view.
Beautifully done by Heath...and Jake.
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Something hit me recently, and only because of a photocap series we did:
In the dance scene with Randall and LaShawn, she says:
"Never thought I'd wind up in a pokey little place like Childress!"
The writers must've laughed their assess off over that!! That in itself tells me an affair of the 'poking' kind was about to start-not a serious one, of course.
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It would be immature of me to make suggestions about what kind of pokey little place Randall winded up in.
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Oh, boy...... ;D
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Wash your mouth out with cheap soap, Des. Nuthin pokey about that......oh, hang on, you don't mean Childress, do you.
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And speakin a Bobby...
Who do people think makes the first move in this scene? Outside it's most defiantely Jack ("...just to go to bed") but inside I can't tell. Those funny sightlines always get me.
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Oh, I think that sleaze, Randall, is eyeing Jack while LaShawn is yammering away, and because when she mentions that he has the degree in A Husbandry, Jack glances over, and Randall is already looking at him. A straight guy would be looking at the women at the table, to see the impressed expressions, or at the wife who is talking about them-not looking at the salesman at the table to see how impressed he is, IMO.
That to me was a dead giveaway.....
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^^^
Yes, what she said.
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Yes, it's on both sides. I think Randall may be looking at straight at Jack right at the beginning of the scene [it's difficult to tell], and Jack makes eye contact just after. Jack makes the comment about women - Randall follows up on it.
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Yes, it's on both sides. I think Randall may be looking at straight at Jack right at the beginning of the scene [it's difficult to tell], and Jack makes eye contact just after. Jack makes the comment about women - Randall follows up on it.
I'm sure on this one: Randall initiated it. The sleaze. ;)
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Far be it from me to defend Beardy Boy but if you met Jack, be you gay, straight or whatever, wouldn't you try it on, just a little?? You could get lucky too, just like the mare. (although she was stupid enough to throw him off.)
But Jack certainly does kick the conversation along once they're outside. And then.....the 1000 yard stare....the "Oh My God, I miss Ennis so much" moment.
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Randall didn't come across as a sleaze to me, especially since Jack is wearing that black leather getup. Like you say, who can resist?
Also, I'd guess that even if Randall was straight, he might be pretty dissatisfied with his marriage. Jack's response of "lively little gal" is a typical one of somebody who has to reply to a negative remark that someone makes about their spouse or some other family member: an answer like "yeah, she sure does run her mouth a lot" might get a very defensive response. But some of the wife's chatter is hardly innocuous: there's a lot of phoney-jokey little shots there.
Have always been one of the quit/no quit fence sitters where Randall is concerned, though.
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Randall didn't come across as a sleaze to me, especially since Jack is wearing that black leather getup. Like you say, who can resist?
Also, I'd guess that even if Randall was straight, he might be pretty dissatisfied with his marriage. Jack's response of "lively little gal" is a typical one of somebody who has to reply to a negative remark that someone makes about their spouse or some other family member: an answer like "yeah, she sure does run her mouth a lot" might get a very defensive response. But some of the wife's chatter is hardly innocuous: there's a lot of phoney-jokey little shots there.
Have always been one of the quit/no quit fence sitters where Randall is concerned, though.
He's too experienced, ya ask me-I don't like the way he says, 'y'know?' It has a raunchy feel to me. Not something Ennis would do; I prefer to pretend Jack and Ennis are pure and perfect as are; they don't need no slick college boy in the mix ;D ;) ;D :D ;D
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It struck me that when Randall enters the scene Jack is utterly gorgeous but when next we see him, at the final camping trip, he's looking a bit haggard. So, the obvious conclusion is that it's that nasty Randall who's done the damage, not his relationship with Ennis. *takes tongue out of cheek*
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:D :D :D
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Ok, something just hit me today, as I was driving:
In the Txgiving scene, Ennis tells Alma Jr about his rodeoin' days. He says:
"Well, honey, I was only on that bronc about 3 seconds....next thing I knew, I was flyin threw the air. But I wasn't no angel, like you and Jenny, hear; I didn't have no wings."
Is it possible he is REALLY unknowingly talking about Jack??
Jack could stay on for 8 seconds; he could stay the course on a low startle point animal.
Is Ennis comparing himself to Jack here??
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I will accept any angel allusions today. What's the date? It's going in my diary.
Can I point out that I already posted the fanfic with a certain angel turning up to help Ennis? Am I ahead of my time?? Or just too full of myself.
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Hello all: Stepping into this thread for the first time because I "discovered" something yesterday that I assume is well known by all of you - but it was news to me: that the Mexican male prostitute was played by Rodrigo Prieto, the cinematographer. For those of you who know this, is that indeed true?
Yesterday I had a woman over for lunch who has seen Brokeback at the theatre 45 times. She came with her male friend, who says he's seen it at the theatre and on DVD at least 60 times. They are clients of the same shop where I get my hair cut - that's where I heard about them - so I was interested to meet them. We spent FIVE HOURS chattering on about BBM! LOL
They mentioned this little fact about Rodrigo Prieto being the prostitute - and I flat-out said I thought they were mistaken...because you can see Prieto interviewed on the Ang Lee piece (among the DVD extras), and he is skinny, with a kind of elegant, "upper class" look, quite different from the hooker. The male friend insisted that he saw Prieto on Mexican television - and that he said that they had tried someone else for the prostitute part, and it didn't satisfy, so Prieto agreed to do it if he wouldn't be credited.
So of course I whipped in the DVD, went to the alley scene - and by God, I believe it is him. He is MUCH heavier than in the Ang Lee piece...face much fuller and body stockier - but it does appear to be Prieto. A good example of how dramatically weight changes a person's appearance. Since I'd never heard any other mention of the prostitute - other than that he was played by a "crew member," I'm still a bit disbelieving. If anyone has more information, or can direct me to such info. on this thread, I'd be very interested.
So - for anyone who (like me) didn't know this...there it is...a possible tidbit of Brokeback trivia.
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Hello all: Stepping into this thread for the first time because I "discovered" something yesterday that I assume is well known by all of you - but it was news to me: that the Mexican male prostitute was played by Rodrigo Prieto, the cinematographer. For those of you who know this, is that indeed true?
Yesterday I had a woman over for lunch who has seen Brokeback at the theatre 45 times. She came with her male friend, who says he's seen it at the theatre and on DVD at least 60 times. They are clients of the same shop where I get my hair cut - that's where I heard about them - so I was interested to meet them. We spent FIVE HOURS chattering on about BBM! LOL
They mentioned this little fact about Rodrigo Prieto being the prostitute - and I flat-out said I thought they were mistaken...because you can see Prieto interviewed on the Ang Lee piece (among the DVD extras), and he is skinny, with a kind of elegant, "upper class" look, quite different from the hooker. The male friend insisted that he saw Prieto on Mexican television - and that he said that they had tried someone else for the prostitute part, and it didn't satisfy, so Prieto agreed to do it if he wouldn't be credited.
So of course I whipped in the DVD, went to the alley scene - and by God, I believe it is him. He is MUCH heavier than in the Ang Lee piece...face much fuller and body stockier - but it does appear to be Prieto. A good example of how dramatically weight changes a person's appearance. Since I'd never heard any other mention of the prostitute - other than that he was played by a "crew member," I'm still a bit disbelieving. If anyone has more information, or can direct me to such info. on this thread, I'd be very interested.
So - for anyone who (like me) didn't know this...there it is...a possible tidbit of Brokeback trivia.
It is him. It's been common knowledge around here forever. Unless I missed something...
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Thanks, John, John. Can't believe I'd never heard that...but you confirm that it's common knowledge.
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Thanks, John, John. Can't believe I'd never heard that...but you confirm that it's common knowledge.
Hi Jeff!!
For your further consideration, there are a series of photocaps that address this phenomenon of cinematographer as actor ;D in the Photocaptioning thread, several months back. If I can find where it starts, I'll link it here for you.... :)
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Thanks, John, John. Can't believe I'd never heard that...but you confirm that it's common knowledge.
Hi Jeff!!
For your further consideration, there are a series of photocaps that address this phenomenon of cinematographer as actor ;D in the Photocaptioning thread, several months back. If I can find where it starts, I'll link it here for you.... :)
Thanks, canstandit! I'd like to see it.
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Thanks, John, John. Can't believe I'd never heard that...but you confirm that it's common knowledge.
Hi Jeff!!
For your further consideration, there are a series of photocaps that address this phenomenon of cinematographer as actor ;D in the Photocaptioning thread, several months back. If I can find where it starts, I'll link it here for you.... :)
Thanks, canstandit! I'd like to see it.
Tech error with the e-mail thingies-those were supposed to be cheesy laughs!!!!! :D :D :D
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I think it was the genuinely macho persona of Ennis that attracted Jack; but it was the scared, hurt and orphaned little boy with whom Jack fell in love. Who knows? do we think the filmmakers are implying Randall as the 'together' version of Ennis, as in, 'if only'? Personally, yechhh...but I could see where Follywood would try to force that comparison down our throats-hence the occasional amore I see directed at Randall-anything to say about that, Desecra, maybe in the other scenes thread?? :D ;D ;D
Oh all right then - I'll give it a go :).
Yes, I think it may be implied that Randall is an available version of Ennis. He's only like Ennis in a superficial way of course - masculine but gentle, etc.
'Amore' directed at Randall - have I got the right meaning of that word? I get the impression that most people can't stand him - which puzzles me. He's just like Jack and Ennis, as far as we can see, but not with Ennis's repression and homophobia. I assume that he had some repression, etc. - he's married. He's similar to Jack in that way - has no doubt gone through similar difficulties, perhaps similar 'other reasons' and attempts to not be gay, etc. and is now at a similar level of self-awareness. That's what puzzles me - how can you like Jack and Ennis and not like Randall? In what way [apart from looks?] is he shown as inferior to them?
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I quite like Randall and also get puzzled by reactions towards him. He looks like a good man, and quite suitable for Jack. I guess the instinctive reaction is seeing him as a rival to Ennis, but he is not. I am actually quite glad Jack has Randall, he probably provides him with some quality company, makes him feel less lonely and saves him seedy trips to Mexico. Of cours, he could also be the cause for Jack's death, but this is fate, it is not his fault.
But don't get me wrong, I don't believe for a minute that Jack actually quit Ennis for Randall ;)
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I don't hate Randall either and i agree with what Mouk said. I just don't see him as s'one who could give Jack what he was looking for when he went back to Ennis after their 4 years seperation.There is s'thing missing in that relatioNship, s'thing which whatever Randall does he will never be able to have Jack and Jack will never be able to give what he feels that he should give in a relatiosnhip.
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I guess I get put off by the way Jack and Randall's relationship begins. They basically look at each other and see sex. It's in sharp contrast to Jack and Ennis who become friends first (although I'm sure the hormones were racing as well).
Nothing wrong with sex coming first - it's just the contrast which grates. Randall looks nice enough; I just don't want to think of him touching Ennis's Jack.
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Randall looks nice enough; I just don't want to think of him touching Ennis's Jack.
Neither would Ennis!
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I guess I get put off by the way Jack and Randall's relationship begins. They basically look at each other and see sex. It's in sharp contrast to Jack and Ennis who become friends first (although I'm sure the hormones were racing as well).
Nothing wrong with sex coming first - it's just the contrast which grates. Randall looks nice enough; I just don't want to think of him touching Ennis's Jack.
I bet Jack and Ennis had sexual attraction right from the beginning too - and as you say, what's wrong with that? But they had to tread more carefully. If they'd been older, confident and sexually aware [if we can ever imagine Ennis like that], the approach would have happened much sooner - and might even have been a bit more subtle [rather than going straight for cock-touching]. I don't think it's a 'good thing' that they took so long - I think it's sad that they weren't able to let things flow naturally. And that they had to wait so long for that first kiss :). I agree with you - hormones racing - but they had to wait for the right moment.
Jack was a lot quicker [if a lot more subtle!] in his other pick ups, from what we see. With Ennis, it's as if they could only go straight for the sex - a more subtle 'courtship' would have scared Ennis off.
I think what we see with Randall is someone who's much more aware than Ennis is on Brokeback. He knows he's gay, he guesses that Jack is and he recognises his own feelings of attraction.
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Randall looks nice enough; I just don't want to think of him touching Ennis's Jack.
Neither would Ennis!
that's right, dammit!!! :D
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I think it was the genuinely macho persona of Ennis that attracted Jack; but it was the scared, hurt and orphaned little boy with whom Jack fell in love. Who knows? do we think the filmmakers are implying Randall as the 'together' version of Ennis, as in, 'if only'? Personally, yechhh...but I could see where Follywood would try to force that comparison down our throats-hence the occasional amore I see directed at Randall-anything to say about that, Desecra, maybe in the other scenes thread?? :D ;D ;D
Oh all right then - I'll give it a go :).
Yes, I think it may be implied that Randall is an available version of Ennis. He's only like Ennis in a superficial way of course - masculine but gentle, etc.
'Amore' directed at Randall - have I got the right meaning of that word? I get the impression that most people can't stand him - which puzzles me. He's just like Jack and Ennis, as far as we can see, but not with Ennis's repression and homophobia. I assume that he had some repression, etc. - he's married. He's similar to Jack in that way - has no doubt gone through similar difficulties, perhaps similar 'other reasons' and attempts to not be gay, etc. and is now at a similar level of self-awareness. That's what puzzles me - how can you like Jack and Ennis and not like Randall? In what way [apart from looks?] is he shown as inferior to them?
I don't like his suit. or his boots. or his hat. or his beard. or the way he says, '...yyy'know?' He just met Jack, and is going for the gold; I suppose it's the standard one night stand mentality I resent, when I bump it up against the LT nature-if flawed-of J & E together. I never thought he had a serious shot with Jack; he is not needy enough for Jack's taste, IMO. He is too slick, too sure. I suppose you could argue Jack has outgrown his need for Ennis' foibles? I don't think so....
Randall by himself; could be attractive. Rand all and Jack-apple and orange. Not like J & E, who to me are a Mcintosh and a Gala-cut from the same cloth; two versions of the same apple. IMO. Is anyone getting hungry? I'm getting hungry.....
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I think part of the problem is that Jack and Ennis are so strikingly goodlooking, whereas Randall is just kind of goodlooking. Seriously - I think it's part of the problem. Nobody bitches about the Mexican whore - he's goodlooking enough to be a contender - or is it that he's after money rather than anything else? Or just that he's not seen as a threat? But I do think a different actor [perhaps differently dressed, with different facial hair] would maybe have been less reviled. How about Daniel Craig [cleanshaven]?
I see what you mean about him being a different type to Jack and Ennis.
The thing is what can Randall be looking for at that stage anyway? He's not going to invite Jack to move in with him and have a long-term relationship - people just don't do that, or very very rarely. They have to have a more casual date first. Of course he's up for sex - who wouldn't be? He's probably slick because it's not his first time [and maybe he's been to Mexico too]. I think he's seen as going straight for gold, but look at his body language, eye contact, etc. He's not at all pushy - he's setting it out there, for Jack to take it or leave it. It's interestng to compare that to Jack picking up Jimbo which is much more direct [not to mention Lureen and Cassie - which are more obviously sexual]. I suppose his gentleness appeals to me.
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I think part of the problem is that Jack and Ennis are so strikingly goodlooking, whereas Randall is just kind of goodlooking. Seriously - I think it's part of the problem. Nobody bitches about the Mexican whore - he's goodlooking enough to be a contender - or is it that he's after money rather than anything else? Or just that he's not seen as a threat? But I do think a different actor [perhaps differently dressed, with different facial hair] would maybe have been less reviled. How about Daniel Craig [cleanshaven]?
I see what you mean about him being a different type to Jack and Ennis.
The thing is what can Randall be looking for at that stage anyway? He's not going to invite Jack to move in with him and have a long-term relationship - people just don't do that, or very very rarely. They have to have a more casual date first. Of course he's up for sex - who wouldn't be? He's probably slick because it's not his first time [and maybe he's been to Mexico too]. I think he's seen as going straight for gold, but look at his body language, eye contact, etc. He's not at all pushy - he's setting it out there, for Jack to take it or leave it. It's interestng to compare that to Jack picking up Jimbo which is much more direct [not to mention Lureen and Cassie - which are more obviously sexual]. I suppose his gentleness appeals to me.
Well, my response was a little tongue-in-cheek, as it were.....I am certain many a yech response is because he does have that sense of underlying passion; I can't deny that. That is a bit threatening to the J&E unity, psychologically. And this does give him a similiarity with Ennis. It continues to bring me back to why the filmmakers are doing this, ie, setting Jack up for a years' long casual fling-that wouldn't be so casual, would it?-just as they are setting Ennis up with Cassie. I doubt in happened in text to the degree the film is indicating-to me, another Hollywood adjustment, ie, putting some dramatic threats in there. I find this unnecessary; J&E can live or die by their own internal issues. No need to muddy the waters, though it makes it more intersting......
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Contrast Cassie, who is presented as the female Jack, with Randall, who is pretty bland and nothingy, really. Ennis needs to be shown to be unable to commit or gety real enjoyment from Cassie, even though she's got a hell of a lot going for her. As has been said, if he can't make a go of it with Cassie then he can't with any other woman. Randall OTOH is just there to show Jack needs sex and takes his opportunities when they arise.
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We've already seen that with the rodeo clown and the trip to Mexico, though. I think Randall is there specifically to set us up for the 'rancher's wife' and the 'ranch neighbour'. Randall invites Jack on 'fishing trips'.
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The clown shows us Jack is actively pursuing men before the reunion, and the hustler is Jack's post-divorce debacle person. Randall is just one of his "friends" in Texas although I agree he's a fleshing out of the rancher's wife comment. I meant he isn't supposed to have any distinct personality whereas Cassie is meant to be seen as a Jack type.
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The clown shows us Jack is actively pursuing men before the reunion, and the hustler is Jack's post-divorce debacle person. Randall is just one of his "friends" in Texas although I agree he's a fleshing out of the rancher's wife comment. I meant he isn't supposed to have any distinct personality whereas Cassie is meant to be seen as a Jack type.
yes, I agree, that Cassie is certainly the female Jack, meant to show us just how not straight Ennis really is....
and I do think there is a bit of both dramatic license and compositing involved in creating a distinctive personality for Randall; one thing I think is just plain wrong, is the alteration of the dialogue that Annie deliberately left vague: "...got another one", became, "got another feller" in the film. PU-leeeeeeeease...let's just force-feed the dumb audience, shall we? I think it would have been much more interesting to make us work at it, like, 'who the F is the other one?' If Jack is gay, why would he bring a ranch neighbor's wife up? Oh! does he really mean the guy?? On the other hand, maybe AL was right to be more obvious....maybe the audience WOULD think, oh he finally went straight-he and LeShawn, yeah..... ;D
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There is the point that audiences only get one crack at the dialogue, unlike readers. Also, at this part of the film I don't think it would be appropriate to have the audience stop and pull back and start trying to piece stuff together. The last half hour is one gut punch after another. Thinking stops the effect.
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If only thinking really did stop the effect..it hasn't for me. I still occasionlly get a dreadful thump in my heart, when I think of the heartache Jack went thru-and what awaited Ennis for years after. Imagine the hell he went thru to get to the place where the metal went soft, finally. Now that would be a good story; except he went thru it ultimately alone, because he never could trust anyone enough to really share-except Jack, and even that had limits. The only moments we get to see the real underbelly of Ennis, is in the dream symbolism-then we see how he was literally schizo about love and fear; the Jack smile juxtaposed with the TI. ugh. His mind was literally of two minds about it. Too late, in the prologue, his mind and heart finally embraced the Jack that gave him only pleasure.... :( At least, at least, he finally made it to that moment. If only he could share it with someone.....
Thank God this is fiction...I think. :o
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Dave has an important announcement about the forum, which he asks all members to read:
http://davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=18085.msg602098#msg602098
We have set up a thread to discuss the situation. That discussion thread is linked from the post directly below the message from Dave. Follow the above link and you'll get to both.
Thanks.
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Randall by himself; could be attractive. Rand all and Jack-apple and orange. Not like J & E, who to me are a Mcintosh and a Gala-cut from the same cloth; two versions of the same apple. IMO. Is anyone getting hungry? I'm getting hungry.....
Yes, I think what throws me off about Randall, although I recognise he's not at all a bad guy, is that he seems to come from a different background than Jack and Ennis. He's more educated (his wife says he's got an animal husbandry major, or something like that), more slick, certainly less 'country boy', less rough than Jack and especially Ennis.
And still, I am a bit bothered at the way he propositions Jack: but I guess it's just my gut feeling...
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We must have similar guts then :D :D I've never warmed to Randall. I remember one earlier viewing when Jack does the 1000 yard stare and is - I assume - thinking of Ennis, and it struck me how cold and mechanical the whole chat-up thing was. I know that's how it goes in the real world, for both gays and straights, but I don't have to like it.
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I don't like Randall (for the obvious reasons, i'm a NQ ;D ) but i can't say that i hate him either....
As for Randall and how 'different' he is, his background, he is educated etc etc, i agree that i get a feeling of how much different Randall is from Ennis and Jack...but at the same time i get the same feeling about Jack and Ennis, of how much 'different' Jack is now from Ennis, his behaviour, the way he talks and everything on him...I hate feeling this way but it's been there, that feeling even from my very first viewing of the film
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Yes, and the film really played up the way Jack has moved up in the world and his Texas-style sophistication. But even in his early days he was that step or two ahead of Ennis in the social sense. He could dance, he could socialise, he had a wider view of the world.
Still, underneath it all, he still loved downtrodden, scruffy, hard-working, inarticulate Ennis.
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I don't like Randall (for the obvious reasons, i'm a NQ ;D ) but i can't say that i hate him either....
As for Randall and how 'different' he is, his background, he is educated etc etc, i agree that i get a feeling of how much different Randall is from Ennis and Jack...but at the same time i get the same feeling about Jack and Ennis, of how much 'different' Jack is now from Ennis, his behaviour, the way he talks and everything on him...I hate feeling this way but it's been there, that feeling even from my very first viewing of the film
Gres you know I've actually proposed early before Randall starting pissing me off- :D-that he is the cleaned-up verson of Ennis; Jack does go on alert when he hears what Randall has paid good money to go to college for: Animal husbandry. Pretty much Ennis field of interest. I think this was a gambit of the filmmakers to get us to think of Randall as a true threat; I came to see both he and Cassie as illustrating exactly the opposite: Ennis could give a rat's ass ultimately about this perfectly decent-if a bit neurotic!-woman; and Jack despite the implication he has been with Randall for a few years-unbelievable to me, that he could possiblly carry on like that; I think we've misinterpreted that, alot of us-is still not getting what he needs specifically from Ennis and no one else-he says that outright.
So, nah, I've never been able to see Randall as anything more than a passing fancy, or a desperate consolation. Not something to build a future on.
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Jeez, I'm dumb. The Animal Husbandry thing passed me right by.
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Gres you know I've actually proposed early before Randall starting pissing me off- :D-that he is the cleaned-up verson of Ennis; Jack does go on alert when he hears what Randall has paid good money to go to college for: Animal husbandry. Pretty much Ennis field of interest. I think this was a gambit of the filmmakers to get us to think of Randall as a true threat; I came to see both he and Cassie as illustrating exactly the opposite: Ennis could give a rat's ass ultimately about this perfectly decent-if a bit neurotic!-woman; and Jack despite the implication he has been with Randall for a few years-unbelievable to me, that he could possiblly carry on like that; I think we've misinterpreted that, alot of us-is still not getting what he needs specifically from Ennis and no one else-he says that outright.
Yes, that makes sense [the animal husbandry].
He's also a more available version of Ennis! :).
You know I'm not happy with the decsion to extend the Cassie and Randall relationships over several years in the film. There was no need for it, and it doesn't make sense. I'm not so sure that Cassie, as played, would hang on that long, but even if she would it doesn't make sense that Ennis never mentions her to Jack. And Randall - it seems that it's the affair with the rancher which inspires Jack to push that bit more and risk a bit more at the last meeting. If the relationship has been going on for years, we've lost Jack's motivation there - yes, it could be the culmination of 20 years of waiting, or that the affair has recently escalated, but why not leave the timing as it is?
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Gres you know I've actually proposed early before Randall starting pissing me off- :D-that he is the cleaned-up verson of Ennis; Jack does go on alert when he hears what Randall has paid good money to go to college for: Animal husbandry. Pretty much Ennis field of interest. I think this was a gambit of the filmmakers to get us to think of Randall as a true threat; I came to see both he and Cassie as illustrating exactly the opposite: Ennis could give a rat's ass ultimately about this perfectly decent-if a bit neurotic!-woman; and Jack despite the implication he has been with Randall for a few years-unbelievable to me, that he could possiblly carry on like that; I think we've misinterpreted that, alot of us-is still not getting what he needs specifically from Ennis and no one else-he says that outright.
Yes, that makes sense [the animal husbandry].
He's also a more available version of Ennis! :).
You know I'm not happy with the decsion to extend the Cassie and Randall relationships over several years in the film. There was no need for it, and it doesn't make sense. I'm not so sure that Cassie, as played, would hang on that long, but even if she would it doesn't make sense that Ennis never mentions her to Jack. And Randall - it seems that it's the affair with the rancher which inspires Jack to push that bit more and risk a bit more at the last meeting. If the relationship has been going on for years, we've lost Jack's motivation there - yes, it could be the culmination of 20 years of waiting, or that the affair has recently escalated, but why not leave the timing as it is?
but i think the timing only exists in the screenplay. i haven't read it obviously but i do remember others commenting on the timing because of dates put into the screenplay.
if you just watch the movie, there are no dates in there after the year on the banner when jack meets randall to give you any indication of time passing.
i have said several times that it is very reasonable for the viewer to think (and this is what i thought until others commented on the screenplay dates) that from the time jack meets randall until the last argument one year has lapsed.
there is absolutely no indication in the movie that either relationship lasted more than months, certainly less than one year. (unless you want to interpret cassie's marriage comment as indicating that their relationship was long term. it never came across to me that way but maybe to others it did.)
so i don't think there is any conflict in the movie re: the time issue of the relationships.
(and i have never been completely convinced that jack ever took up with randall at all. but that's just me.)
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Gres you know I've actually proposed early before Randall starting pissing me off- :D-that he is the cleaned-up verson of Ennis; Jack does go on alert when he hears what Randall has paid good money to go to college for: Animal husbandry. Pretty much Ennis field of interest. I think this was a gambit of the filmmakers to get us to think of Randall as a true threat; I came to see both he and Cassie as illustrating exactly the opposite: Ennis could give a rat's ass ultimately about this perfectly decent-if a bit neurotic!-woman; and Jack despite the implication he has been with Randall for a few years-unbelievable to me, that he could possiblly carry on like that; I think we've misinterpreted that, alot of us-is still not getting what he needs specifically from Ennis and no one else-he says that outright.
So, nah, I've never been able to see Randall as anything more than a passing fancy, or a desperate consolation. Not something to build a future on.
This is how i see Randall, as well. When i wrote 'different' i didn't mean to say that Randall was more close to what Jack had become/ a better match if you will..I see Cassie and Randall exactly as you've described it....Cassie was Ennis' 'temptation'=his last chance of leading a straight life and Randall was Jack's 'temptation'=a man more willing maybe or more ready to take his chances and the risk to live with a man....But i think just like Ennis couldn't go on with the lie in his life=Cassie and it is Ennis we are talking here with all his fears etc etc Jack couldn't do it either with Randall.
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(and i have never been completely convinced that jack ever took up with randall at all. but that's just me.)
No, I don't think it's just you :). But I don't agree - we still need a male 'rancher's wife'. If it's not Randall, then who?
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Gres you know I've actually proposed early before Randall starting pissing me off- :D-that he is the cleaned-up verson of Ennis; Jack does go on alert when he hears what Randall has paid good money to go to college for: Animal husbandry. Pretty much Ennis field of interest. I think this was a gambit of the filmmakers to get us to think of Randall as a true threat; I came to see both he and Cassie as illustrating exactly the opposite: Ennis could give a rat's ass ultimately about this perfectly decent-if a bit neurotic!-woman; and Jack despite the implication he has been with Randall for a few years-unbelievable to me, that he could possiblly carry on like that; I think we've misinterpreted that, alot of us-is still not getting what he needs specifically from Ennis and no one else-he says that outright.
So, nah, I've never been able to see Randall as anything more than a passing fancy, or a desperate consolation. Not something to build a future on.
This is how i see Randall, as well. When i wrote 'different' i didn't mean to say that Randall was more close to what Jack had become/ a better match if you will..I see Cassie and Randall exactly as you've described it....Cassie was Ennis' 'temptation'=his last chance of leading a straight life and Randall was Jack's 'temptation'=a man more willing maybe or more ready to take his chances and the risk to live with a man....But i think just like Ennis couldn't go on with the lie in his life=Cassie and it is Ennis we are talking here with all his fears etc etc Jack couldn't do it either with Randall.
Yes! I think as I get more and more into the depth of the pain in each of them, it just seems impossible that anything could console Jack; I really believe there was no way out for him, and that is why she has him 'die' at the end-literally, and as a metaophor.Then Ennis kind of gets to live in his misery-Jack didn't have Ennis for more than a few weeks a year, so he 'lived' with the shirts; Now Ennis' turn to do the same-oy vay..... So I agree a hunnert percint.
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One scene/line continues to bother me; I feel I have not reached the bottom of it-my theory was largely knocked down, so I forgot about for awhile..I'd like to see a new perspective o?r two:
At the drive-in, with Alma, Ennis is sitting there either bored or entranced by the movie-or daydreaming about Jack, and we see the baby kick and Alma put his hand on her belly-just as the movie dialogue is spoken: "...parking your trailer illegally on the beach." This just bothers the bejeezus out of me..I really do think this is a statement of truth: Ennis is playing at being a hubby/father; in reality, he is parked illegally. He doesn't really love Alma. And interestingly, the scene in the drive in film takes place at the door to a trailer-only with a woman-kind of playgirlish-looking, being 'warned' by Mr. Straight-Arrow, to not be parked on the beach.
Do the woman on the screen and Ennis have something in common? Are both outsiders? She a 'loose'women; he a 'queer'? Are both condemned to live on the fringes? Is this one of Ang Lee's philosophical statements about judgement and condemnation??
There is something much deeper than meets the eye in that scene.....
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(and i have never been completely convinced that jack ever took up with randall at all. but that's just me.)
No, I don't think it's just you :). But I don't agree - we still need a male 'rancher's wife'. If it's not Randall, then who?
yeah, i completely see your point. probably just my own denial kicking in there. plus a jealous hatred of randall. ;) :D
frankly, i would rather it be some faceless, nameless intangible floating nebulously out in the ether. easier to dismiss. ::)
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but i think the timing only exists in the screenplay. i haven't read it obviously but i do remember others commenting on the timing because of dates put into the screenplay.
if you just watch the movie, there are no dates in there after the year on the banner when jack meets randall to give you any indication of time passing.
i have said several times that it is very reasonable for the viewer to think (and this is what i thought until others commented on the screenplay dates) that from the time jack meets randall until the last argument one year has lapsed.
there is absolutely no indication in the movie that either relationship lasted more than months, certainly less than one year. (unless you want to interpret cassie's marriage comment as indicating that their relationship was long term. it never came across to me that way but maybe to others it did.)
so i don't think there is any conflict in the movie re: the time issue of the relationships.
Except that the film seems to suggest that Ennis uses Cassie as a beard after he is outed by Alma.
Myself, I see story "Cassie" as just one of a number of possible female acquaintances that Ennis mentally uses to bolster his self-image.
As for Randall, well, he has to be in the story but I don't see that he has to be so obvious. After all, Jack had "friends" so he was possibly one of many too.
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CSI, re. the drive-in film, Ennis was definitely parking his trailer where he shouldn't oughta. No, that image is too vile - it sure wasn't trailing when he was parking it ;D ;D
What's with the stream of water or whatever that runs down the middle of the windscreen in that scene?
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But I don't agree - we still need a male 'rancher's wife'. If it's not Randall, then who?
Could have been anyone. In those years, Childress was known as San Franscisco of the Panhandle.
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Is there a reason I should believe you, Dal??
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Is there a reason I should believe you, Dal??
Only if the following is accurate, which I doubt.
Jeez, I'm dumb.
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But I don't agree - we still need a male 'rancher's wife'. If it's not Randall, then who?
Could have been anyone. In those years, Childress was known as San Franscisco of the Panhandle.
;D
They were just playing, 'Can you top this?' at the campfire, with the 'other women' comments-Not to dismiss Randall completely :D ;), but let me ask the $14-question, that no one seems to be able to find an answer to:
How was Jack REALLY going to bring someone other than Ennis up to LF, given that that would bring him into such close proximity to Ennis?? I mean it's less than half the drive from Texas....and how would this guy with a degree from Texas A & M, getting established is such powerful local society as Childress, the Boom-Boom Town of the Panhandle- ;) decide he wanted to live with Jack and Mom and Dad on the decaying ranch in the outback of Wyoming? Maybe the comment about the cabin and wanting to 'get away' some, is supposed to make us feel the guy might drop everything-but then in the last scene, Ennis waves Don Wroe's cabin in front of Jack-so he and movie Randall are doing the same thing, essentially-offering Jack a vacation under a roof.
I really think the film is fanciful in this regard, as it is with Cassie; I see them as tools to show us that J & E CAN"T separate-neither relationship works out, even after a few years together-J & E still have that devastating fight at the end-they still haven't un-meshed. No, sir, I don't like it all......
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Agree, CSI. Pity the film was a little too heavy-handed with Randall.
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Is there a reason I should believe you, Dal??
Only if the following is accurate, which I doubt.
Jeez, I'm dumb.
Duh!
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Dal-that moniker has a ring to it: "The San Francisco of the Panhandle"....I feel a photocap coming on, I just can't decide how to do it-I'll give you the nod, if I come up with it...
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Travellin round the pan lookin for the handle?
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at the end-they still haven't un-meshed. No, sir, I don't like it all......
Requiescat in pace topic 9841. Please.
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Maybe the comment about the cabin and wanting to 'get away' some, is supposed to make us feel the guy might drop everything-but then in the last scene, Ennis waves Don Wroe's cabin in front of Jack-so he and movie Randall are doing the same thing, essentially-offering Jack a vacation under a roof.
One of the major differences is that one is offering it on a first meeting and the other is offering it after a relationship of many years.
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but i think the timing only exists in the screenplay. i haven't read it obviously but i do remember others commenting on the timing because of dates put into the screenplay.
if you just watch the movie, there are no dates in there after the year on the banner when jack meets randall to give you any indication of time passing.
i have said several times that it is very reasonable for the viewer to think (and this is what i thought until others commented on the screenplay dates) that from the time jack meets randall until the last argument one year has lapsed.
there is absolutely no indication in the movie that either relationship lasted more than months, certainly less than one year. (unless you want to interpret cassie's marriage comment as indicating that their relationship was long term. it never came across to me that way but maybe to others it did.)
so i don't think there is any conflict in the movie re: the time issue of the relationships.
Except that the film seems to suggest that Ennis uses Cassie as a beard after he is outed by Alma.
Myself, I see story "Cassie" as just one of a number of possible female acquaintances that Ennis mentally uses to bolster his self-image.
As for Randall, well, he has to be in the story but I don't see that he has to be so obvious. After all, Jack had "friends" so he was possibly one of many too.
okay, but what does that have to do with timing? he could have used her as a beard for three months or for four years.
and i am not so sure about that. ennis did not seek out a female relationship. he simply did nothing to stop cassie's advances. maybe splitting hairs here, after all it resulted in the same thing.
???
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Maybe the comment about the cabin and wanting to 'get away' some, is supposed to make us feel the guy might drop everything-but then in the last scene, Ennis waves Don Wroe's cabin in front of Jack-so he and movie Randall are doing the same thing, essentially-offering Jack a vacation under a roof.
One of the major differences is that one is offering it on a first meeting and the other is offering it after a relationship of many years.
Despite how forward Randall might might be we can't know what he really is looking for from Jack, what he really wants...and for sure Randall can't compete with the 20 years of Ennis being in Jack's heart and mind...
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Gres, I find that strange though - why would you expect Randall to offer anything more serious when we see him? He and Jack had just met that same day as far as I can see. There aren't any further scenes to let us know how it progresses, but later it seems that Jack is having something more serious than a weekend away with a man. I know people say that doesn't need to be Randall - of course it doesn't. But in that case, what's the point of showing Randall? Why not show the guy Jack is having the relationship with?
Randall himself is NOT important. And this is another reason I have issue with the casting of Randall - he is made so unlikeable that people lose sight of what he's showing us. 'Randall' tells us about Jack and Ennis, I believe.
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okay, but what does that have to do with timing? he could have used her as a beard for three months or for four years.
But he doesn't - he doesn't mention her until the last meeting.
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Gres, I find that strange though - why would you expect Randall to offer anything more serious when we see him? He and Jack had just met that same day as far as I can see. There aren't any further scenes to let us know how it progresses, but later it seems that Jack is having something more serious than a weekend away with a man. I know people say that doesn't need to be Randall - of course it doesn't. But in that case, what's the point of showing Randall? Why not show the guy Jack is having the relationship with?
In the SS Randall doesn't have a name...In the film he does but we see him just once and that's it and Jack's reaction isn't too enthousiastic despite Randall's being pretty forward...i mean we all know what he is proposing to Jack...I believe that the filmmakers give the neighboor a name for one very simple reason...The neighboor has a name and the audience knows who he is, i mean we really see who he is...and then in the at-the parent's scene the audience is allowed to see/realise more effectively the impact MrT's revelation has on Ennis and intensifies the whole scene of the finding of the shirts.....Tome this is the only reaon why Randall has a name, nothing more nothing less...
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i agree - although I don't think he needs a name, even in the film. But my point is that he, himself, is not important. But somehow he has been portrayed in a way which has led to a lot of dislike. That's not in the script - it just somehow came across in the final film [not to me, for some reason, but I know many people found the character unlikeable or even offensive]. I don't think that's what initially was intended. 'Randall' in the film serves a number of purposes, but none of them are really about him. One of those purposes is to let us know Jack is lying when he talks about the woman he's seeing.
Randall also highlights Ennis's reluctance/fear/homophobia/whatever. What he's offering at first meeting - the fishing trips - is what Ennis is offerring 20 years down the line to someone he loves deeply. And in a cabin. Now somehow that has become twisted into Randall being too forward, or whatever - but I really don't think that was the original point. Jack is just as forward - ALL the characters are. Except Ennis. We're being shown that there are other possibilities out there and being set up for the 'rancher's wife' and the 'ranch neighbour', but we are also being given an insight into what Jack craves, and Ennis's paralysis.
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Re the post-divorce scene.
After seeing it for about 69 times, I'd wondered about Jack licking his lips while talking to Ennis in the post-divorce scene. After the 70th, I have a theory why he does that. He's so eager to have, and thinks he's so close to having, a life w/ Ennis, that he can taste it.
As I've said more than once, nothing -- but nothing -- in this movie happens by accident.
The movie is an oil painting.
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I like that idea, Marc.
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Maybe the comment about the cabin and wanting to 'get away' some, is supposed to make us feel the guy might drop everything-but then in the last scene, Ennis waves Don Wroe's cabin in front of Jack-so he and movie Randall are doing the same thing, essentially-offering Jack a vacation under a roof.
One of the major differences is that one is offering it on a first meeting and the other is offering it after a relationship of many years.
Splitting hairs, Des.... :D ;D ;) (just kidding, valid point-no energy to argue it!!)
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but i think the timing only exists in the screenplay. i haven't read it obviously but i do remember others commenting on the timing because of dates put into the screenplay.
if you just watch the movie, there are no dates in there after the year on the banner when jack meets randall to give you any indication of time passing.
i have said several times that it is very reasonable for the viewer to think (and this is what i thought until others commented on the screenplay dates) that from the time jack meets randall until the last argument one year has lapsed.
there is absolutely no indication in the movie that either relationship lasted more than months, certainly less than one year. (unless you want to interpret cassie's marriage comment as indicating that their relationship was long term. it never came across to me that way but maybe to others it did.)
so i don't think there is any conflict in the movie re: the time issue of the relationships.
Except that the film seems to suggest that Ennis uses Cassie as a beard after he is outed by Alma.
Myself, I see story "Cassie" as just one of a number of possible female acquaintances that Ennis mentally uses to bolster his self-image.
As for Randall, well, he has to be in the story but I don't see that he has to be so obvious. After all, Jack had "friends" so he was possibly one of many too.
okay, but what does that have to do with timing? he could have used her as a beard for three months or for four years.
and i am not so sure about that. ennis did not seek out a female relationship. he simply did nothing to stop cassie's advances. maybe splitting hairs here, after all it resulted in the same thing.
???
The implication is that Cassie was convenient to use after Alma's comment so there is the impression that he's with her for quite a considerable time.
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okay, but what does that have to do with timing? he could have used her as a beard for three months or for four years.
But he doesn't - he doesn't mention her until the last meeting.
yes but des that is my point. if you are watching the movie and have no preconceived ideas about timing from either the story or the screenplay, there is nothing to indicate how much time has passed between when ennis allows cassie to pick him up and the last meeting between him and jack.
i went through the scenes once, a few months ago to make sure i wasn't missing anything and i am not.
from the time jack meets randall and ennis meets cassie to the last meeting between jack and ennis and even up to jack's death and the returned postcard, it is possible that all those scenes happen in the time span of one year. there is nothing in the movie after the timing of jack/randall to indicate any major passing of time.
i think your point is the same, which is (i hope) that the relationships of randall and cassie are there to further elucidate on the relationship between ennis and jack. and i think that point is valid regardless of the timing.
but as someone who only watched the movie for the first fews weeks (months?), the timing issue was never a problem until others brought it up based on the story and the screenplay.
and for me it is still not an issue. :)
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i agree - although I don't think he needs a name, even in the film. But my point is that he, himself, is not important. But somehow he has been portrayed in a way which has led to a lot of dislike. That's not in the script - it just somehow came across in the final film [not to me, for some reason, but I know many people found the character unlikeable or even offensive]. I don't think that's what initially was intended. 'Randall' in the film serves a number of purposes, but none of them are really about him. One of those purposes is to let us know Jack is lying when he talks about the woman he's seeing.
Randall also highlights Ennis's reluctance/fear/homophobia/whatever. What he's offering at first meeting - the fishing trips - is what Ennis is offerring 20 years down the line to someone he loves deeply. And in a cabin. Now somehow that has become twisted into Randall being too forward, or whatever - but I really don't think that was the original point. Jack is just as forward - ALL the characters are. Except Ennis. We're being shown that there are other possibilities out there and being set up for the 'rancher's wife' and the 'ranch neighbour', but we are also being given an insight into what Jack craves, and Ennis's paralysis.
really good points i think.
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yes but des that is my point. if you are watching the movie and have no preconceived ideas about timing from either the story or the screenplay, there is nothing to indicate how much time has passed between when ennis allows cassie to pick him up and the last meeting between him and jack.
i went through the scenes once, a few months ago to make sure i wasn't missing anything and i am not.
from the time jack meets randall and ennis meets cassie to the last meeting between jack and ennis and even up to jack's death and the returned postcard, it is possible that all those scenes happen in the time span of one year. there is nothing in the movie after the timing of jack/randall to indicate any major passing of time.
i think your point is the same, which is (i hope) that the relationships of randall and cassie are there to further elucidate on the relationship between ennis and jack. and i think that point is valid regardless of the timing.
but as someone who only watched the movie for the first fews weeks (months?), the timing issue was never a problem until others brought it up based on the story and the screenplay.
and for me it is still not an issue. :)
My calculation of how long Ennis and Cassie were together goes like this, and adds up to 4-5 years:
Thanksgiving scenes -- 1977, because you hear that on the television in Texas
Next trip to BBM -- summer 1978
Ennis meets Cassie -- 1978
Texas restaurant -- 1978, because it says that on the banner
Last trip to BBM -- 1982, or maybe 1983, because Jack says "You count the damn few times we've been together in nearly 20 years ... " and he starts counting in 1963.
Ennis and Cassie at the restaurant -- same year as last trip to BBM
At Ennis's trailer -- probably 1983, because Alma Jr. is 19 and she was born in 1964, but she was born late in 1964 so it could be 1984
I just realized I haven't examined the postmark on the last postcard to look for the date. Silly me.
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interesting timeline marc.
maybe. maybe not. :D ;)
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Perhaps this is the point where it should be mentioned again that AP gives the ages of Junior and "Bobby" incorrectly in the story, for whatever reason. Perhaps not.
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The administration has been working extremely hard to solve the slow down issue that has been plaguing the forum for some months now. It has been determined that to solve this we will have to change the host company of the forum. The new host server has now been contracted with by Dave as of today.
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yes but des that is my point. if you are watching the movie and have no preconceived ideas about timing from either the story or the screenplay, there is nothing to indicate how much time has passed between when ennis allows cassie to pick him up and the last meeting between him and jack.
i went through the scenes once, a few months ago to make sure i wasn't missing anything and i am not.
from the time jack meets randall and ennis meets cassie to the last meeting between jack and ennis and even up to jack's death and the returned postcard, it is possible that all those scenes happen in the time span of one year. there is nothing in the movie after the timing of jack/randall to indicate any major passing of time.
i think your point is the same, which is (i hope) that the relationships of randall and cassie are there to further elucidate on the relationship between ennis and jack. and i think that point is valid regardless of the timing.
but as someone who only watched the movie for the first fews weeks (months?), the timing issue was never a problem until others brought it up based on the story and the screenplay.
and for me it is still not an issue. :)
My calculation of how long Ennis and Cassie were together goes like this, and adds up to 4-5 years:
Thanksgiving scenes -- 1977, because you hear that on the television in Texas
Next trip to BBM -- summer 1978
Ennis meets Cassie -- 1978
Texas restaurant -- 1978, because it says that on the banner
Last trip to BBM -- 1982, or maybe 1983, because Jack says "You count the damn few times we've been together in nearly 20 years ... " and he starts counting in 1963.
Ennis and Cassie at the restaurant -- same year as last trip to BBM
At Ennis's trailer -- probably 1983, because Alma Jr. is 19 and she was born in 1964, but she was born late in 1964 so it could be 1984
I just realized I haven't examined the postmark on the last postcard to look for the date. Silly me.
Thanks for the timeline, really cleared stuff up for me! Its refreshing (and pretty lazy) to have it presented right in front of me instead of having to search for clues such as postcards and TV announcements throughout the film.
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Hi don't know if this is where I should be asking this question, but I have been curious from the first time, I watched the movie. I would like to know what do gay men or women look for when they are interested but are not sure if the other person is. I couldn't figure out why that Randal would be looking at Jack like that, and why in heavens name would he ask a strange man to go up to a cabin with him? I don't understand, what did Jack do or say that would make him think he would be interested. I know that if a strange man that we have just met, came out with that to my husband about getting away, he would freak, needless to say Randal would have got his answer for sure, so please let me know, because that just baffled me. Thankyou I would a appreciate it, jwm.
I am truely interested in how and why it happens.
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Wow, what an interesting question jwm! i don't know either, and now I'd really like to find out: What did Randall see in Jack that made him ask the question?
Maybe he didn't see anything, but was asking anyway, so if Jack responded with a discouraging comment, he could just be like "Oh , I was just asking.."
But it seemed like they recognized something in each other. What was it?
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You know its funny I thought the same damn thing! Thinking to myself what the heck? I couldnt for the life me understand what would make Randall ask Jack these questions. I also asked my boyfriend these questions to see what he thought. I asked him to if it looked like Randall and LaShawn knew Jack and Lureen prior to the dance or if they had just met that night. The way they were talking sounded like they had known each other all their lives, but then when Jack was dancing with Lureen she said "if you hadnt of come up on us I dont know how long we would of been stuck in that ditch" (something like that anyways). And the ladies talking, well LaShawn doing most of it, and boasting about their school pledges...blah blah blah...I just didnt know the status of their relationship. To ME it just made me sit there and say, "ah come on now" And almost seemed silly to add that to the movie....that out of everyone there Randall would hit on Jack? Just seemed really silly. My boyfriend told me he wasnt sure about the status of the couples relationship, but also said that to him it didnt seem like he was "hitting on Jack" just sorta making conversation...perhaps getting away on a guy weekend...to get away from the women....after all poor Randall was married to LaShawn. I said, but look at the way he is bringing up the weekend...sorta under his breath...not really the way to guys talk about getting away for the weekend. I dont know. That whole scene was indeed quite confusing to me too.
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I think Randall guessed. There were a couple of clues. There seem to be looks exchanged between the two. The conversation between Lureen and LaShawnn almost seem to give the game away on second viewing! ['Husbands never seem to want to dance with their wives...', etc.], but that would be unintentional I think! Jack and Randall seem to be watching each other, subtly. Then it's Jack who offers the opportunity - he asks why women powder their nose after a party 'just to go home to bed'? I think there's an implication there that he's not interested in sex with women.
Of course, all this is subtle. It has to be. We're shown Jack trying to pick up a man in a bar earlier, and how dangerous that could have been. Even then, he's fairly subtle, but buying the guy a drink was too much of a give away. The line about women could be taken any way the listener pleases. And I know Randall is often accused of being too brazen, but he goes pretty carefully too. His offer to Jack seems perfectly innocent - if we didn't already know about Jack's fishing trips.
So I think Randall manages to 'read' Jack. He then makes an approach which Jack will ONLY pick up on if he's gay, I think.
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Wow, what an interesting question jwm! i don't know either, and now I'd really like to find out: What did Randall see in Jack that made him ask the question?
Maybe he didn't see anything, but was asking anyway, so if Jack responded with a discouraging comment, he could just be like "Oh , I was just asking.."
But it seemed like they recognized something in each other. What was it?
Randall got hit with the Jackenator.....same thing that got Ennis. Its those damn eyelashes....
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Wow, what an interesting question jwm! i don't know either, and now I'd really like to find out: What did Randall see in Jack that made him ask the question?
Maybe he didn't see anything, but was asking anyway, so if Jack responded with a discouraging comment, he could just be like "Oh , I was just asking.."
But it seemed like they recognized something in each other. What was it?
Randall got hit with the Jackenator.....same thing that got Ennis. Its those damn eyelashes....
Oh hot damn, I understnd now... The Jackenator is powerful and irresistibaleee<< sorry I know I spelled that wrong.
I've been hit, and proud of it.!
What a beauty.
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I have rewound that part alot and I still don't catch any of it, Jack looks over at him, because he can feel him looking at him, but lots of men do that, and women too, and Jack asking about the powdering thiers noses was just something to break the silence. I think that Jack look unconfortable, when he starts talking about the cabin, he knows what he is implying, but before he can say anything the women come down, but he looks at Randal like, you serious, but I agree that scene was not needed, just gave me another thing to think about, and the scene with that clown, well I was totally disappointed in it, it to me made Jack look, terrible, desperate, and most of all pathetic, not that he is by no means, but it put him in a not so sweet,loving man that I had already fell in love with, but I got over it :) so I hope to see you guys on here for a while yet jwm
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I have rewound that part alot and I still don't catch any of it, Jack looks over at him, because he can feel him looking at him, but lots of men do that, and women too, and Jack asking about the powdering thiers noses was just something to break the silence. I think that Jack look unconfortable, when he starts talking about the cabin, he knows what he is implying, but before he can say anything the women come down, but he looks at Randal like, you serious, but I agree that scene was not needed, just gave me another thing to think about, and the scene with that clown, well I was totally disappointed in it, it to me made Jack look, terrible, desperate, and most of all pathetic, not that he is by no means, but it put him in a not so sweet,loving man that I had already fell in love with, but I got over it :) so I hope to see you guys on here for a while yet jwm
JWM-always provoking thoughts in me. Hey, they are getting ready to archive the Quit/No quit thread so if you have some thoughts on it, now's the time...
I think the scene with Jimbo the clown give us the line,'Jack had been riding more than the bulls'-it was necessary to show us what only the book tells us, but Jack never admits until the end-he has not been 'faithful' between BBM and the Reunion. Not that he needed to be; he just knew how Ennis would probably react.
A little late for Ennis to ask that question, after they've loved the life out of each other all night, doncha think? It makes sense, though-He knows Jack has some experience he maybe did not have on BBM-he knows there is a difference; he is openly comparing lovemaking with Alma-'women'-and lovemaking with Jack, and he is finding Jack oh so much better-'aint nothin like this'. So the clown gives us the notion that Jack's been around the block a bit-I really wish that line about Ennis a horseback would've been left in...It would've added to his allure, I think.
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I have rewound that part alot and I still don't catch any of it, Jack looks over at him, because he can feel him looking at him, but lots of men do that, and women too, and Jack asking about the powdering thiers noses was just something to break the silence. I think that Jack look unconfortable, when he starts talking about the cabin, he knows what he is implying, but before he can say anything the women come down, but he looks at Randal like, you serious, but I agree that scene was not needed, just gave me another thing to think about, and the scene with that clown, well I was totally disappointed in it, it to me made Jack look, terrible, desperate, and most of all pathetic, not that he is by no means, but it put him in a not so sweet,loving man that I had already fell in love with, but I got over it :) so I hope to see you guys on here for a while yet jwm
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I think that sounded harsh , sorry didn't mean to make Jack out to be so bad, I just meant that he looked like he was so desperate to find somebody, anybody, to fill that gap in his heart, or somewhere else ;) that was left by Ennis, I think that made me think for just a moment, that he was totally out of whack, not really thinking straight, because he has been around enough of the rodeo cowboys to know it could be dangerous, in a strange place, hitting on whoever happened to be at the bar, so I am glad that the rodeo clown, didn't freak on him, so if I affened any Jack lovers, I am sorry , I didn't mean to he is by far the best thing in this whole confusing maise I am in, but having alot of fun, just seeing how many people have so many versions of what they saw, and we all seen the same movie, it just amazes me that is all. jwm
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I guess I should read the book, did she say that Jack was gay before he met Ennis???
I would have never known that he was if I hadn't heard all the hype about this gay cowboy movie, so I knew they were before I see it, but if I didn't hear any of it I would have not had a clue until the first tent scene, dahhhhhhhhhhhh how blind and naive am I :-[ I just would have thought that the booze had got the best of them, because like I said I wouldn't have had a clue.
I watched it again today just to see what I have missed, I read all the things from all these great insights, but I do see a few glances, alot of getting to know each other better, becoming good friends, but again I don't see anything that if I was there, I would notice, they didn't even look at each other when Ennis stripped down for his little wash. I know I couldn't have not looked, :) Maybe Ennis was subconceously hoping that Jack did take a peek. I don't know, I am really trying to see what everyone else seems to see and I don't, because I want this scene to make sense to me, but I just can't seem to grasp it. Oh no I think I got side tracked again.
I was starting to say way back there that I thought what had happened up on the mountain with Ennis, might have awakening something inside of Jack that he never really completely knew what it was, and he knew that he liked it, also he was looking for something, maybe a subsitute to take that emptiness away, even take his life in his hands, hitting on a man in a strange bar, knowing that he had friends there, silly move, but I think by that time he was desperate, lonely and in a way wanted to know if he really could enjoy it with another man. He might have wanted to prove to himself that Ennis didn't mean that much to him , and he could replace the lust with another body, but I knew better :) I guess every scene in this movie means something different to almost everybody, that is what makes this so incredibly fasinating to me, I have said in one of the other threads, that I am just a hopless romantic, and when I see something that I like, like Jack, I see everything he does from the time they leave the mountain, up to the reunion, and beyond, he is doing for Ennis, trying to survive without him. jwm
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I guess I should read the book, did she say that Jack was gay before he met Ennis???
I would have never known that he was if I hadn't heard all the hype about this gay cowboy movie, so I knew they were before I see it, but if I didn't hear any of it I would have not had a clue until the first tent scene, dahhhhhhhhhhhh how blind and naive am I :-[ I just would have thought that the booze had got the best of them, because like I said I wouldn't have had a clue.
I watched it again today just to see what I have missed, I read all the things from all these great insights, but I do see a few glances, alot of getting to know each other better, becoming good friends, but again I don't see anything that if I was there, I would notice, they didn't even look at each other when Ennis stripped down for his little wash. I know I couldn't have not looked, :) Maybe Ennis was subconceously hoping that Jack did take a peek. I don't know, I am really trying to see what everyone else seems to see and I don't, because I want this scene to make sense to me, but I just can't seem to grasp it. Oh no I think I got side tracked again.
I was starting to say way back there that I thought what had happened up on the mountain with Ennis, might have awakening something inside of Jack that he never really completely knew what it was, and he knew that he liked it, also he was looking for something, maybe a subsitute to take that emptiness away, even take his life in his hands, hitting on a man in a strange bar, knowing that he had friends there, silly move, but I think by that time he was desperate, lonely and in a way wanted to know if he really could enjoy it with another man. He might have wanted to prove to himself that Ennis didn't mean that much to him , and he could replace the lust with another body, but I knew better :) I guess every scene in this movie means something different to almost everybody, that is what makes this so incredibly fasinating to me, I have said in one of the other threads, that I am just a hopless romantic, and when I see something that I like, like Jack, I see everything he does from the time they leave the mountain, up to the reunion, and beyond, he is doing for Ennis, trying to survive without him. jwm
Just a couple of points: In the film, while Jack is peeling the potatoes with Ennis out of focus, nude and washing, in the background, watch Jack's eyes-he is seeing Ennis peripherally-not easy to catch, but its there-and he takes a deep breath right before the next shot-he is clearly aroused.
And IMO, if Ennis really wanted privacy, he'd go behind the tent, not to where Jack can see him....
I wish you'd read the book-this scene is much more frank in the book.
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i need clarification and i have a question.
two scenes:
first when lurene is at her counting machine and two men are standing at the window watching jack sell machinery. one says: isn't that the piss ant that used to ride bulls?" (CSI, another example of dialogue from the story in the film).
and then the scene where lurene is at her counting machine and jack can't find his blue parka.
is that the same room/space?
if not, then i am all set. but if it is, why are the men in a room that appears to be part of the house. or why are jack's clothes in an office space?
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Just a couple of points: In the film, while Jack is peeling the potatoes with Ennis out of focus, nude and washing, in the background, watch Jack's eyes-he is seeing Ennis peripherally-not easy to catch, but its there-and he takes a deep breath right before the next shot-he is clearly aroused.
And IMO, if Ennis really wanted privacy, he'd go behind the tent, not to where Jack can see him....
I wish you'd read the book-this scene is much more frank in the book.
He also swallows hard twice, not easy to do. He is so NOT looking but at the same time.....
Peripherally? Have to watch again. Damn.
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i need clarification and i have a question.
two scenes:
first when lurene is at her counting machine and two men are standing at the window watching jack sell machinery. one says: isn't that the piss ant that used to ride bulls?" (CSI, another example of dialogue from the story in the film).
and then the scene where lurene is at her counting machine and jack can't find his blue parka.
is that the same room/space?
if not, then i am all set. but if it is, why are the men in a room that appears to be part of the house. or why are jack's clothes in an office space?
ah, yes...how did we not see this sooner? good catch!!
And know, I think the private office is the one with Jack and Lurene and the parka; the public sales area is probably where she goes to close the deals, and where the two good ol boys are eyeing Jack.
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Hi there, I think I might actually have the right thread for this. :)
I think that when Alma told Ennis that she knew about him and Jack, I think she unconsciously mind you, hurt Ennis more that anything else she could have of said to him.
She held back the most important thing of all, and that is how she knew. Alma at that moment put everything that Ennis was so fearful of out in the open, and now he was scrambling trying to figure how, after he thought he had done such a masterful job of hiding it, by her telling him how she knew opened a flood gate, of feelings in him.
I can only imagine what he was going through at that moment, thinking shit if this woman, with no expearrace can figure it out, everyone can and must. she now gave prudence to everything that he believed would happen, and just added to his fear, and closed alot of procress that Jack might have been making in making Ennis feel more comfortable about them, now he is even worse. I wonder if Ennis might have reacted differently if he knew that she seen him and Jack together, and not just picked up on it over time, and I think her reaction to the whole situation, made Ennis almost sick to his stomach, like she totally exposed his insides, and her making it sound dirty, disgusting, degenerate, everything he loved was now being described like a bad desease help but think at that moment, something happened to him, and poor Jack was going to pay for it,somehow, he always does.
Jack thought Ennis was paranoid before, nothing to what Ennis is feeling now.
I don't think Alma truly knew what she had done, but she couldn't have done better. jwm
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I believe that by the time Jack is killed, that he is not just with Randal, because of the flash scene that was shown when Ennis was on the phone, was almost like he had been set up. I think that Jack was up to his okd tricks , and went to the wrong place with the wrong guy, and they were waiting for him, why else would he be down in the culvert, and I don't know if that what happened or if that is what Ennis visualized, but if that is what happened then Jack would not have been down there with three guys, and why just Jack, and not Randal if he was with him, not with Randal at that time I mean( as an item), it is just a thought, helps me to believe that Jack wasn't with that guy.. jwm
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jmw, i don't think Jack managed to push Ennis make a step forward after the reunion (that is why i think their last meeting has such an impact). Ennis had decided how things was going to be and that was that.Even if he knew that Alma had actually seen them kissing instead of guessing...i don't think he would be less paranoid and he would have done anything different. Just see the post divorce scene and how Ennis reacted at seeing that car passing by. Even the presence of his daughters couldn't help him relax a bit, i mean his daughters being there was the best cover at the moment and he had nothing to be afraid. On the contrary i get the impression he seemed to be even afraid of being seen with Jack publicly (even eating at some place would would freaked him out) because he deep down in his heart he was aware of the truth, of his real himself....what was going on in his mind really tortured his heart..
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jwm, as for the "murder" scene, i think it is put in to show us what ennis was thinking at that time but i don't know that we are supposed to take it as hard fact. i think we are supposed to be not sure about how jack died.
as to alma "outing" ennis, i have said before that i thank alma for doing what she did because it is the first time anyone basically called ennis "queer" out loud. and i think that naming of what was going on between him and jack forced ennis to start thinking about it and forced him to stop denying. (notice i said start. i am not saying he got very far in the process necessarily.)
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Hmmm...Jnov. The more emotionally attached to Jack Ennis was becoming the more paranoid he was getting, i think. Especially after his divorce and him seeing his girls once a month his whole life was swirling around his meetings with Jack (nothing important in his life to draw his attention...). And the stronger the need was becoming the more paranoid Ennis was getting. The dependency was s'thing which was frightening him a lot because he was slowly becoming to realise how much he needed this man, Jack maybe more than ever before, so as to be able to breathe. Quite frightening as i said for s'one who needs to have control over things...even in the SS Ennis is a man who could sleep with his eyes open when he had to do the "job" right, to conform to the "have-tos" in his life imosed by him himself or the society.
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jmw, i don't think Jack managed to push Ennis make a step forward after the reunion (that is why i think their last meeting has such an impact). Ennis had decided how things was going to be and that was that.Even if he knew that Alma had actually seen them kissing instead of guessing...i don't think he would be less paranoid and he would have done anything different. Just see the post divorce scene and how Ennis reacted at seeing that car passing by. Even the presence of his daughters couldn't help him relax a bit, i mean his daughters being there was the best cover at the moment and he had nothing to be afraid. On the contrary i get the impression he seemed to be even afraid of being seen with Jack publicly (even eating at some place would would freaked him out) because he deep down in his heart he was aware of the truth, of his real himself....what was going on in his mind really tortured his heart..
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Yes I agree he seemed even more paranoid after the divorce and he didn't know that Alma knew, so yes I guess that part of Alma outing him really didn't make much more of an impact on him, by then I guess nothing anyone said or didn't say would have made a difference. I guess the only thing that it did do was reinforce his deep need to keep him and Jack, as his own personal battle, except now the battle Field has expanded, and he has to now find ways to be able to be with Jack, knowing deep down, that in the end even though Jack was almost forcing him to do something about it, he just couldn't, and I don't think even the time when he asked Jack if he ever was suspicious about Lureen, he didn't tell Jack why he was asking, he should have and maybe then Jack might have been a Little more understanding, as to Ennis's little tantrum by the river. jwm
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I would like to know if they put this scene in there just to prepair us for what is going ot happen to Jack in the end? (I'm sorry the scene with rodeo clown )It showed us how reckless, and totally without fear,he was to openly persue what he had found so enjoyable with Ennis? Him able to finally put a word to what he had felt for years, and not really wanting to except it. Did he want to see if having sex with Ennis was anything more than the sex? I thought that when he was with Ennis this was pretty well new ground for him to, not maybe him finding other men appealing but the fact that this could actually be so much more, like him being in love with man. If the clown had excepted it do you think that Jack would have not contacted Ennis in the future???????????? I just came away from that scene feeling sorry for Jack, that he had been left with no other recourse but to resort to one night stands.
When he met and married Lureen and he did have a source of relieving his sexual needs, normal or anal doesn't really matter, but it just was never enough, never the same total complete blow the top your head off kind of sex, he found with Ennis, and that is why he had to at least try and see Ennis again, even if for no other reason, just to see him. He needed to see if what he felt for him was real and not just some beautiful fantasy he has conger ed up in his own mind. Jack always has lived for the moment like hitting on this clown, not really thinking ahead of what could happen, just at that time he wanted it, so with Ennis he was defiantly heading for a rude awakening, that what he has been doing, is just plain foolishness, and no way the sex would ever be the same with anyone else, male or female.jwm
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The story indicates that Jack was sexually active during the four years apart, and although it's not stated clearly, it's pretty well implied that it was with men. So the Jimbo scene shows us that Jack was into picking up men but doesn't actually show us having sex so we can be left with our illusions if we want them, I guess.
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Hmmm...Jnov. The more emotionally attached to Jack Ennis was becoming the more paranoid he was getting, i think. Especially after his divorce and him seeing his girls once a month his whole life was swirling around his meetings with Jack (nothing important in his life to draw his attention...). And the stronger the need was becoming the more paranoid Ennis was getting. The dependency was s'thing which was frightening him a lot because he was slowly becoming to realise how much he needed this man, Jack maybe more than ever before, so as to be able to breathe. Quite frightening as i said for s'one who needs to have control over things...even in the SS Ennis is a man who could sleep with his eyes open when he had to do the "job" right, to conform to the "have-tos" in his life imosed by him himself or the society.
thank you, Gres...you just gave me an idea about another bookend:
Ennis is driven to his knees by the divorce, Jack comes running, Ennis pulls back.
Ennis is driven to his knees literally by Jack leaving; Jack comes out of the trucking, Ennis stands back up.
This is the short leash; come and help me/now, don't touch me. Mixed signals; everytime Ennis is being real, and Jack responds, he closes back up. Maybe Jack needed to be colder, more distant....Ilet Ennis feel his pain a bit longer. don't know.
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gres and jwm, i agree ennis became more paranoid. but that is my point.
when he was deep in denial, there is little reason for him to be paranoid because he is in denial. nothing queer about him so why would anyone else think there is anything queer about him?
but after alma voiced his queer-ness, then he started thinking maybe he was queer and then he started to think maybe everyone else thought maybe he was queer.
as his denial lessens and his awareness of himself increases, his paranoia increases.
i never said as his denial decreases his acceptance increases. :D ;)
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Jnov, i think we are saying much the same thing here.Me just approaching the matter from a different angle but my conclusion is the same with yours, i think. Being in denial doesn't let Ennis be paranoid for the reason for him to be, hasn't been acknowledged yet but as the realisation slowly dawns on him as his denial slowly is falling apart, especially after Alma's words his paranoia increases because now he has the reason ....the realisation of what he really is...Is that what are you saying? If so, then we are in total agreement here.
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gott'cha. yep. agree. ;) :)
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Yes, all on the same page, I think....in one of the dern threads, God knows which, I theorized that when Ennis says, 'like they know'-I know, it was the Cassie thread!-he has realized that since he has no real inkling Alma knows about the kiss-I think-there must be something about HIM, Ennis, that makes others think he might be; and since 'they' would not know about Jack, because he and Jack only meet in remote locations, again, there must be something queer about him.
When Jack does nothing to reassure him in the 'what about Texas?' scene, he becomes ripe for some denial, and falls much more easily into Cassie's arms...'no more dancin for me, I hope'-no more dancing around the truth, more likely. Now with a woman in his life, he doesn't have to deal with it--or so he thinks.
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HI,
I am bringing this up here from the DVD discussion, I am sorta new at this so bear with me if it was discussed before. I
There are several sequences filmed for the movie that did not make it into the final version. Regarding the shot of Ennis looking pained in the truck with Jack: the scene where Ennis drops the girls off with Alma at Monroe's store was originally supposed to have taken place after the reunion, and to show that Ennis was lying to Alma about having to work and was actually slipping off with Jack. It ended up getting placed earlier in the final cut and had the effect of showing more of Ennis's family relations and also introducing us to Monroe. It's possible that the truck snippet was meant to have taken place immediately following that, Ennis leaving with Jack and feeling guilty about having lied to Alma and interfered with her job.
Is this written about in the story to screenplay book? I have it already but I sort of am saving it. Or how else do you know?
It actually makes a lot more sense that Ennis was leaving the girls to run of with Jack, because he was so excited and breathless at that point. I had thought it kind of funny that it really was about work. But the girls were still very young, so I guess it would have been right after the reunion, especially since he said he would be gone half the night. Maybe it was supposed to be very soon or directly after the reunion camping trip?
But Alma still did seem very 'pre-kiss' Alma, so I am not sure but it is interesting.
I am just so intrigued by the shot in the trailer of Ennis and Jack in the truck (that I have just seen since I got totally into all this about a month ago) . I guess it could be going off for another tryst, and that is why Ennis looks pained, cause he is feeling guilty.
But to me they do look young, I really wonder about that shot...
Actually I just looked again, and Jack is wearing the blue shirt, so they must be going up the mountain or coming down. Still on that trailer there are also other shots I don't immediatelly recognize, like the opening sheep shot.
I am wondering if at the last minute they cut a bunch of shots even if not whole scenes, I am wondering if they like the truck shot could have been cut because they gave away to much.....
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They shot a sequence where Ennis and Jack have slept in the truck after their first day drinking in the bar. Ennis is supposed to be hungover. Perhaps it was thought that it slanted the issue of whether Jack deliberately got Ennis drunk in FNIT.
Story To Screenplay doesn't mention any of this stuff.
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I believe that by the time Jack is killed, that he is not just with Randal, because of the flash scene that was shown when Ennis was on the phone, was almost like he had been set up. I think that Jack was up to his okd tricks , and went to the wrong place with the wrong guy, and they were waiting for him, why else would he be down in the culvert, and I don't know if that what happened or if that is what Ennis visualized, but if that is what happened then Jack would not have been down there with three guys, and why just Jack, and not Randal if he was with him, not with Randal at that time I mean( as an item), it is just a thought, helps me to believe that Jack wasn't with that guy.. jwm
I think it's just in Ennis's mind [although it may also have happened as he sees it]. Ennis's memory is of Rich and Earl, and then of seeing Earl's body. We never find out what happened to Rich, but presumably Earl died without him, with nobody to help him, and that's the way Ennis imagines Jack dying. Of course, even if they'd been together, Ennis wouldn't have been with him all the time. Couples aren't usually together all the time.
I thnk it's possible that what flashed through Ennis's mind was more horrific than what we see. In an earlier script there was a scene at Jack's parents where Ennis has another 'vision' - he sees Earl's body again, but this time it's Jack's face. I imagine that he saw Jack being murdered just as Earl was.
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Des, I made the point on some other thread that if Ennis believes Jack was bashed then he must believe there's a good chance it was as horrific a death as Earl's, and in this way he pays out on himself for his sins of omission.
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In both Thanksgiving scenes, the two lovers were pushed to a level to where they both knew that their lives were no longer, going to be the same. Ennis was finally taken out of the closet, the secret life he has lived is no longer that, and again he is tormented by what ifs. Jack on the other hand finally stood up and became the man he use to be, the man he has become, he has great strentgh in the knowledge, that this part of his life, meant security, stability, somewhere he can hang his hat, so called home, but in the depths of his heart he was a man to Ennis, the only man that Ennis has or would ever wanted.
So the irony of this to me is the one that has been so paranoid about his manhood, and tried so hard to protect it, to keep it, has now been brought down to reality. Jack on the other hand has re found his manhood, his ability to take control back, and the fact that Jack never let the fear take over his life, here he is the more open and careless, side of the two, he is still comfortable with himself, more now.12
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jwm, I don't think I agree about Jack's scene. It strikes me as being a very negative thing that happens. He takes out his frustrations on LD but he's going against his natural self. The way he puts his hand to his head shows me how unhappy he is with the way he's being forced to live.
If we tie this scene in with the argument then we get an idea of how much it goes against the grain for Jack to argue with Ennis. He is pushed by circumstance to a state he;d rather not be in. Jack's sudden bursts of temper indicate how much he is trying to keep a lid on things. Then when he drinks, and the maudlin drunk stuff comes out, we are told of what he's always thinking about.
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They shot a sequence where Ennis and Jack have slept in the truck after their first day drinking in the bar. Ennis is supposed to be hungover. Perhaps it was thought that it slanted the issue of whether Jack deliberately got Ennis drunk in FNIT.
Story To Screenplay doesn't mention any of this stuff.
Oh, that's right, the truck scene could've been about the night before going up to BBM. Tx for the recall, Mini.
But one of the crew was interviewd over on the Start Your Own Thread threads, and he said that the grocery store scene was about Ennis slipping off to see Jack.
Note how he asks Alma to get some 'round steak, if you think of it'. He knows he'll be hungry after a few hours with Jack-the echo is 'I'm starving; wanna get something to eat?" from Jack after the night in the motel.
Plus you can sense Ennis is desperately lying to Alma, and just keeps walking even after Jenny shrieks when the jars fall-normally, that would bring a caring dad back to see what happened-it is just further proof to me, if I look at that scene in its orig intent, that when Jack is around, all bets are off for Ennis.
"Its' cuz a you, Jack, I'm like this. I'm nowhere, I'm nothin'."
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[snip]
Plus you can sense Ennis is desperately lying to Alma, and just keeps walking even after Jenny shrieks when the jars fall-normally, that would bring a caring dad back to see what happened-it is just further proof to me, if I look at that scene in its orig intent, that when Jack is around, all bets are off for Ennis.
"Its' cuz a you, Jack, I'm like this. I'm nowhere, I'm nothin'."
which is probably why ennis can't have jack around. :-[
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IMO I think that the grocery store scene was placed perfectly for the final movie. To me it showed how much Ennis...well quite frankly didnt give a shit about his marriage....in that scene he HAD to get on to work or else he was going to be fired.....fast forward to the reunion scene where Ennis is getting ready to leave for a couple days with Jack. Alma is asking Ennis "are you sure your not going to get fired?" She is just so shocked at Ennis responses to her. You can see the shock on her face. How can Ennis be so cold hearted to Alma? I just hate that part of him. Jack has a powerful hold on Ennis. The grocery store scene worked before the reunion scene and it would of worked after too. But to have it placed before just showed how much Ennis truly cares about Jack...even that early in their relationship.
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[snip]
Plus you can sense Ennis is desperately lying to Alma, and just keeps walking even after Jenny shrieks when the jars fall-normally, that would bring a caring dad back to see what happened-it is just further proof to me, if I look at that scene in its orig intent, that when Jack is around, all bets are off for Ennis.
"Its' cuz a you, Jack, I'm like this. I'm nowhere, I'm nothin'."
which is probably why ennis can't have jack around. :-[
yep, how sad. Fact is he can't control himself-it is his own passion that is threatening to kill him. If anyone wants to really understand Ennis's self-loathing-consider that!
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That's a really good observation, CSI. Yes, not only does he have this vague sense of being wrong, in his eyes, even though he won't label himself as queer, but he also has a totally helpless attraction which renders him out of control. He'd hate that.
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I agree completely CSI, on the part that it is Ennis himself that scares him, and it also appears when Jack goes to see him after the divorce, how he is so conscious of the truck driving by, he knows when he is around Jack he is feels, totally open, like everyone can tell. I have wanted to say that for along time, but I get side tracked with my long winded posts, forget half of what I wanted to say or ginally, :)
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I just wanted to say that to me after the Thankgiving outing, I found it ironic that after finding out that he is was busted, he found himself getting the crap beat out of him, mind you he started it, but still the irony was defiantly there, Getting beat up because he is gay. jwm
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I think in a way Ennis subconsciously wants to get punched and provokes it. He feels that he deserves it and so he just gives in and let it happen.
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It is a dirty fight-echo of the dirty punch-so we an assume he started it, right? I think we are meant to think that; is it possible he is also reasserting his internal homophobia, but can't direct it at Alma, so he directs it to the nearest guy willing to fight? I mean it also has some psyche roots in attacking that which he is attracted to-another man. Is he punishing or proving to himself? In the film we see him taking a beating, but there is no indicator in the SS who won his fight-maybe he did. Another thing AP leaves quite open.
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Yes, the book seems less masochistic [for want of a better word] on that point. Don't have it to hand, but I think at some point Ennis is described as being built for fighting, and after the scene I think it says he gets into a 'short, dirty fight' or something - it sounds cathartic. Maybe he needs to hit something as much as be hit - he was about to hit Alma. I like your ideas about it being another man, CSI.
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But we are told that a broken nose healed crooked (bent) which does imply that he sustained damage even if he didn't come off second best.
And that he has the evidence of the fight and the memory of its cause every day when he shaves.
Plus the fact that its at the Black and Blue Eagle Bar = Ennis - the eagle - comes out of the fight black and blue, i.e. beaten up.
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Desecra is right on this one, I think. It isn't as masochistic in the book. The impression I came away with from reading the book was that Ennis got into a fight inside a bar after he'd gotten liquored up. And the SS gives no indication that he was bested in that fight.
The movie shots the scene the way it does to provide some continuity and further evidence for Ennis' downward spiral as we run headlong into the last scene together.
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But we are told that a broken nose healed crooked (bent) which does imply that he sustained damage even if he didn't come off second best.
And that he has the evidence of the fight and the memory of its cause every day when he shaves.
Plus the fact that its at the Black and Blue Eagle Bar = Ennis - the eagle - comes out of the fight black and blue, i.e. beaten up.
I often wonder about the broken nose-Earl; Jack's knee; the dirty fight, maybe-Ennis doesn't want to know-but he nose.
(sorry)
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Desecra is right on this one, I think. It isn't as masochistic in the book. The impression I came away with from reading the book was that Ennis got into a fight inside a bar after he'd gotten liquored up. And the SS gives no indication that he was bested in that fight.
I beg to differ. I think the SS gives an indication that he suffered damage, even though it was just a short fight. Maybe he won, but he still got hammered.
CSI, yes, the nose connection is clear, as far as I'm concerned. Noses, smell, breathing - a constant thread of references. Better get over to S&I with that, however.
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Mini-A,
You are correct on this. I didn't mean to say that Ennis didn't receive his fair share of blows, even one resulting in that crooked nose. What I was trying to say is that the SS gives no indication that he masochistically rolled up into a little ball while the driver had at him. It's a different characterization.
Sandy
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Story to Screenplay leaves a great deal out. And I think a good part of it is propaganda of one sort or another. Half the scenes discussed on this thread aren't even mentioned.
I always felt that the SS mention of his broken nose re the dirty fight meant he LOST. Who knew!
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Win or lose (and I'm also inclined to think he lost) the fight and the episode with Alma leave him with a feeling of shame and discomfort, hence staying away from the girls. The nose is the reminder.
bb_1 what did you mean by propaganda?
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I always felt the broken nose meant he got in lots of fights, not just the one.
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Oh me too Sandy.....Ennis was wwwaaayyyy too hot tempered to have only gotten in one fight.
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We know he was built for fighting. We're not actually told about any fights beyond the Thanksgiving one, but I think we are meant to connect the two. He may have broken his nose in a fall or as a result of a kick by a cross calf. I just assume that, in this tight story, AP doesn't let a chance to add relevent information go by. Others will disagree :)
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I was thinking that the broken nose was a result of the "fight" with Jack on BBM.....no? I mean Jack did give him quite the knee to the nose. There was alot of blood there.
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No, I don't think so. We are told about it very late in the relationship. It's some thing, like the growth on his eyelid, which occurs in a narrative sense, after the reunion.
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I was thinking that the broken nose was a result of the "fight" with Jack on BBM.....no? I mean Jack did give him quite the knee to the nose. There was alot of blood there.
Apparently I need to watch the movie more often, because I dont recall Ennis having a broken nose- lol
I didn't think his nose got broke whrn he fought that trucker.. Sometimes I feel so lost - lol
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HELLO Power of Love -- methinks maybe you have not read the story?? just a guess, sorry if I'm wrong. In the story, the older Ennis is said to have had a broken nose (and therefore a crooked nose in his advanced years)--]
and there were a few other incidents, like a pissing scene, mentioned in the story but not the movie. Does this help ???
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Note how he asks Alma to get some 'round steak, if you think of it'. He knows he'll be hungry after a few hours with Jack
He would be just as hungry after a good few hours doing ranch hand work. Very hard work, and they eat lots.
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Plus the fact that its at the Black and Blue Eagle Bar = Ennis - the eagle - comes out of the fight black and blue, i.e. beaten up.
Yeah but you shouda seen the other guy!
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Note how he asks Alma to get some 'round steak, if you think of it'. He knows he'll be hungry after a few hours with Jack
He would be just as hungry after a good few hours doing ranch hand work. Very hard work, and they eat lots.
right, of course, but that was not the orig purpose of the scene; it worked just fine, because they left out the shot of Ennis with Jack. That was my point, that the orig intent was about Jack and him-not the ranch.
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Plus the fact that its at the Black and Blue Eagle Bar = Ennis - the eagle - comes out of the fight black and blue, i.e. beaten up.
Yeah but you shouda seen the other guy!
In any major city, The Black and Blue Eagle would be a gay leather bar. :D
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Plus the fact that its at the Black and Blue Eagle Bar = Ennis - the eagle - comes out of the fight black and blue, i.e. beaten up.
Yeah but you shouda seen the other guy!
In any major city, The Black and Blue Eagle would be a gay leather bar. :D
You aren't joking are you?
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I can point to New York City, Bay Shore (Long Island), Fort Lauderdale, Chicago, San Francisco, Charlotte, etc., etc. Definitely adds a dimension to Ennis' butch quotient (or cluelessness). :D
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I can point to New York City, Bay Shore (Long Island), Fort Lauderdale, Chicago, San Francisco, Charlotte, etc., etc. Definitely adds a dimension to Ennis' butch quotient (or cluelessness). :D
Oh, my....was that an aware chuckle on AP's part, do you think? or did she just like the name for the dirty fight?? Maybe someone made a pass at Ennis...oops.
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I can point to New York City, Bay Shore (Long Island), Fort Lauderdale, Chicago, San Francisco, Charlotte, etc., etc. Definitely adds a dimension to Ennis' butch quotient (or cluelessness). :D
Oh, my....was that an aware chuckle on AP's part, do you think? or did she just like the name for the dirty fight?? Maybe someone made a pass at Ennis...oops.
My nose for a me-definately-not-queer...?
(sorry couldn't help it ;D )
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I can point to New York City, Bay Shore (Long Island), Fort Lauderdale, Chicago, San Francisco, Charlotte, etc., etc. Definitely adds a dimension to Ennis' butch quotient (or cluelessness). :D
Oh, my....was that an aware chuckle on AP's part, do you think? or did she just like the name for the dirty fight?? Maybe someone made a pass at Ennis...oops.
My nose for a me-definately-not-queer...?
(sorry couldn't help it ;D )
Interesting if so, actually....he injures his nose defending his perceived manhood; Earl gets killed for it-and his nose is mutilated.
Ya, know I think the fact that she calls it a dirty fight means Ennis started it-the dirty punch is where you catch someone unawares, but with provocation. I wonder what he was getting provoked about-surely she means for us to connect this with his rage at Alma. But to have been a fly on the wall; he may just have got drunk, and someone was looking at him funny, like they know....
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The way he's been taught to fight by his father, i.e. to jump his brother, catch him unawares, and the way he goes to the bar, has a short dirty fight then leaves, makes me pretty certain he was deliberately taking out all the anger and panic and whathaveyou he felt at Alma's but couldn't take out on her. The fact that he turned on his pregnant ex-wife the way he did shows he was in a hell of a state.
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Win or lose (and I'm also inclined to think he lost) the fight and the episode with Alma leave him with a feeling of shame and discomfort, hence staying away from the girls. The nose is the reminder.
bb_1 what did you mean by propaganda?
I don't buy some of it, thats what i mean by propaganda. It's too PR oriented, just doesn't really hang together. I think that some of it is plain made up.
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I can point to New York City, Bay Shore (Long Island), Fort Lauderdale, Chicago, San Francisco, Charlotte, etc., etc. Definitely adds a dimension to Ennis' butch quotient (or cluelessness). :D
Then too she might have had a veiled tongue in cheek referral to the Eagle feather in Jack's hat--Jack was emotionally black and blue from it all, Ennis was beaten by it all, and apparently beaten black and blue.
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Now we're cutting fences, gettin inna symbolism, for which there is a very serviceable thread.
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I only noticed today the prayer they were saying when Ennis got married, it made me smile, when they said, leadth me not into temptaton, restoreth my soul. Was he remembering then what had happened up on Brokeback?
When he had put those screaming girls to bed, and he sat down on the side of the bed, head in hands, was he thinking oh my god what have I gotten myself into, god where is Jack, where is Brokeback.
When Jack was dancing with Lureen, to, no one will love you like me, and he put his face up against hers dancing, and the look on his face, looked like he was saying, god, this is not Ennis, she feels good, but I want Ennis. He looked a million miles away.
When Jack was screwing around did he ever imagine Ennis was too, being he couldn't do it, so why did he think Ennis could.
Did Ennis even own a winter coat? Sorry had to put that in there.
These things are just a few of the silly things I think of when watching the movie, through the girls parts. Not that I am not interested in them, it is just they could have put more scenes of the boys together, :)
Also how hard would it be to find out the person you have loved for almost you whole life, has been dead for what 6 months and you never knew, at that point you knew that you really screwed up, what a devasting blow for Ennis, God I don't know if I have heard anything that sad, jwm
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Ennis steps out in shirt and jeans summer and winter, adding a canvas coat in cold weather, we are told.
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I only noticed today the prayer they were saying when Ennis got married, it made me smile, when they said, leadth me not into temptaton, restoreth my soul. Was he remembering then what had happened up on Brokeback?
~snip~
Just a small point. In the marriage ceremony, they are reciting the Lord's prayer, which has the petition 'lead me not into temptation'. The phrase 'restore(th) my soul' comes from the 23rd Psalm, and is usually found in funeral services.
Interesting, of course, that the voice over of the prayer begins in the previous scene with Ennis on his knees.
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Interesting, of course, that the voice over of the prayer begins in the previous scene with Ennis on his knees.
That's a very good point. I'm embarrassed that I didn't notice it myself.
And it ties in with this. Just as the dialogue in the Del Mars' wedding begins in the previous scene (Ennis kneeling), so it goes with their divorce, with "Custody of the two minor children" being heard as Alma rolls over and turns off the light.
Ang Lee just loves those bookends. Somebody should make a list of them, maybe in the Elements and Themes area.
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I only noticed today the prayer they were saying when Ennis got married, it made me smile, when they said, leadth me not into temptaton, restoreth my soul. Was he remembering then what had happened up on Brokeback?
~snip~
Just a small point. In the marriage ceremony, they are reciting the Lord's prayer, which has the petition 'lead me not into temptation'. The phrase 'restore(th) my soul' comes from the 23rd Psalm, and is usually found in funeral services.
Interesting, of course, that the voice over of the prayer begins in the previous scene with Ennis on his knees.
Oh my god you are right, that shows how well I think when I am writing these things, I knew better , how stupid do I feel :-[ anyway I just thought the prayer was a nice touch, even though I got the prayers mixed up, and quoted wrong, I knew what I was trying to say, sorry again. dahhhhhhhhhhhhh
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We all get excited and carried away over this story. No biggie. :)
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Interesting, of course, that the voice over of the prayer begins in the previous scene with Ennis on his knees.
That's a very good point. I'm embarrassed that I didn't notice it myself.
And it ties in with this. Just as the dialogue in the Del Mars' wedding begins in the previous scene (Ennis kneeling), so it goes with their divorce, with "Custody of the two minor children" being heard as Alma rolls over and turns off the light.
Ang Lee just loves those bookends. Somebody should make a list of them, maybe in the Elements and Themes area.
You'll find them scattered through the earlier pages of Structure and Editing.
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To me the Thanksgiving scenes were such a pivotal time for both of them.
Jack's was a time when he was so tightly wound up inside that he was a time bomb ready to go off. He had so much bottled up, anger, frustration,he didn't know what to do with it . He put up with so much from everyone, always trying to make everyone happy, always compromising, giving in to keep the peace. He never was good at rocking the boat, he liked to keep things, calm.
He had swallowed so much of his self pride, and dignity, he was choking on it. He went through the motions, trying to survive, make the best out of a very bad situation, but he too had his limits. That LD had pushed him, too far this time. He wasn't going to take that shit from anyone, never again.Jack has lost his way somewhere along the way. He just had to at least eliminate one of his, problems, and LD seemed like the logical person, seeing that he showed little to no respect to Jack.
Jack didn't like to do it, but the old blow hard left him no choice, he just blew up, and he rather it be LD, than Ennis. Ennis was the one that he was the most frustrated with
but he always treaded softly around Ennis, he didn't want to lose control like that with him. He felt he had nothing to lose at this point, he was beyond caring what they all thought, he was at his limit, and pity the one that was in his way. All the unhappy feelings, anger, unfulfilled dreams, guilt, frustration, all came out. If nothing else he felt vindicated, satisfied, that he had finally got their full attention, for once, they knew he was there. Sorry if I have the old buggers name wrong. jwm
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I think Jack's frustration in this scene was also amply demonstrated just by watching him calve that turkey!
Blimey, I thought the table was going to collapse. Maybe he was imaging it was his father-in-laws scrag-end ;D
He deserved a telling off, I get the impression he was having a dig at Jack when referring to his son and the TV and saying 'all boys should watch football' or words to that effect, maybe insinuating Jack was less of a man for having no interest in the game (which I assume he didn't).
Lo
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LD was a dick. So was Jack's daddy. That man was surrounded by some of the most repulsive dicks ever concieved by an American writer.
If LD wasn't directly and indirectly calling Jack was a faggot at his own dinner table in his own house in front of his own wife and son, then I know nothing about BBM at all.
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I have rewound that part alot and I still don't catch any of it, Jack looks over at him, because he can feel him looking at him, but lots of men do that, and women too, and Jack asking about the powdering thiers noses was just something to break the silence. I think that Jack look unconfortable, when he starts talking about the cabin, he knows what he is implying, but before he can say anything the women come down, but he looks at Randal like, you serious, but I agree that scene was not needed, just gave me another thing to think about, and the scene with that clown, well I was totally disappointed in it, it to me made Jack look, terrible, desperate, and most of all pathetic, not that he is by no means, but it put him in a not so sweet,loving man that I had already fell in love with, but I got over it :) so I hope to see you guys on here for a while yet jwm
May I join in for a minute?
I've often thought about Jack's facial expressions when he's on the bench with Randall. He looks terribly miserable and forlorn, after Randall makes his weekend proposal. What a wretched place to be; Jack loves and wants more than anything in the world to be with Ennis. He wants to spend more time with Ennis, anyplace, but who asks him on a fishing trip to get away from it all, his rancher neighbor .
Now, that is a bitch of an unsatisfactory situation.
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The Thanksgiving scene for Ennis certainly was one more thing to put in his blind sided list. He seems to get that a lot. I guess it is because he always seems to be a step or two behind everyone else. He seems to keep himself closed off from everyone, and everything around him, he was always so bent on keeping his feelings, his thoughts, his needs, under wraps, hidden from anyone that cared for him, he has managed to let his whole life slip away without really, living, or letting someone openly love and cherish him. He seemed like he felt he wasn't worthy or something.
The girls seems to really want to make him feel important, especially in these surroundings, he was like a fish out of water, but I think the only thing they managed to do, was reopen the wounds and bring what Alma had tried so hard for years to hide. Rodeo, was a word from the past which I think, just gave Alma that push to finally tell Ennis what she knows, as soon as the opportunity was available. She had her chance when Ennis said, what he said, and she just lost it. I honestly don't know how she was able to not tell him all those years ago, Ennis has been very forturnate to have found a man and a woman to love him, so deeply, that they keep all their pain, and disappointments, hidden from him, and he certainly didn't deserve to be spared that, not with Alma. He totally devastated her, and their family, she gave it a good go though, what 9 years, that is a life time to her.
She managed to push Ennis to finally see that she is not some stupid, naive country girl, that deserved to be lied too, in such a huge unfair way. He had to now realize that he hasn't been that smart, or good at hiding his feelings, and his other life, but he didn't know how she knew, she did the one thing that I think was the biggest and best way she could have done it. She has brought out the doubt, all the second guessing on where he had gone wrong, he now had this knowledge, but how many more people knew, was he that obvious, by her not telling him she seen them, did more damage, she did what she set out to do, she knocked him for a loop, she had put an even bigger wedge between,Jack Nasty, and her ex than she ever realized. He now carried that with him, always there in the back of his mind, he never even told Jack, maybe if he had, he would of understood a little better. He never seemed to give the people in his life, the benefit of the doubt, that maybe, just maybe, they could actually help him, and he didn't have to go through life on his own, he had people that were there for him, if he had only let them in.
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This has nothing whatsoever to do with Thanksgiving but still might turn out a turkey:
There is an image in BBM that everyone has seen, no one has talked about, and I think it may be Mr. Lee, but I wonder, should I just keep this quiet so that others can find this moving image hiding in the open for themselves? Would it be selfish of me to deprive other “detectives” of the search? (It's really amazing - if you haven't seen it, you will be blown away.) Are there even others interested in the topic? I truly don't know what to do. I have lived with this question since last September, and really can’t seem to locate a balance between wanting to talk about it and wanting to not spoil the pleasure of discovery for others. Also, at this point in my own journey it’s a little like a magic trick after the miracle has taken place, you get my drift.
Anyway, if anyone else has the right to make this decision, it would have to be Dave Cullen, to thank him for all of you and for all the changes that the film and your discussions have inspired in my life. So, should this be publicized or not? Whether it’s revealed or not will be a 49/51 deal: you guys’ opinion gets 49% emphasis, Mr. Cullen gets 51%. This thing is so cool, that even if the debaters debunk, the Maker (Ang Lee) will amaze you more than you already thought you could be! And even if what I can show you turns out to be not Mr. Lee but someone else, you may not believe your eyes, seeing something that you haven't seen although you've been looking at it all along. Kinda like Ennis: unable to see what he’s been looking at, all this time.
So Dave, if our friends in the fora think I oughta, drop me a line, you still have the final say. I will abide by your decision, show or not show. (Just my luck everybody already knows, then I really would live up to my name.) ::)
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Does Ang pop up as an extra in the country club, when the camera is on the band? I dimly seem to remember some converstation about that, unless my memory deceives me. Ol' Whats-his-name, the guy who sings "Maker Makes," plays second guitar in that scene.
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Actually Dal, Mr. Lee is crying. In sympathy. Or are you telling me that you think I can't distinguish the difference between Rufus Wainwright and Ang Lee? :-* Oh, and he is right out in the open. If I get the OK, you will be amazed.
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Actually Dal, Mr. Lee is crying. In sympathy. For Ennis.
Well then I guess I missed that appearance.
I'm sure you can tell Wainwright and Lee apart. I mentioned Wainwright because not everybody notices him there. Come to think of it though, I'd like to see Lee in a yellow C & W jacket, jamming on a guitar.
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Friends, I am intringued,what are you talking about? The country club where Jack dances with Lureen? If it is the case, would Lee not cry in sympathy for Jack and the sad fate he is throwing himself into rather than for Ennis?
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Do you think it matters? I mean, on the one hand this is interposition is marvelously done (and I do intend the original meaning, as in people will really "marvel"), yet OTOH, while most of us here could attach meaning to anything, does it affect the story? Well maybe in the sense that after it is seen every viewer must be without any doubt of the director's sympathy for his subject, but that wouldn't be the Forum people. Still, it is a kindly, benevolent event.
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I just felt it was a more logical interpretation, but it does not matter particularly I guess. Having Lee express feelings on set is a bit like the narrator having his say, isn'it? Very nice, subtle touch. Just looking forward to spotting it when I get an opportunity to see the film again.
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There is a country club in brokeback?? Where??
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omg
a
country
CLUB
as in country/western bar
I had visions of Lureen sitting on the veranda at some Texan Country Club named The Burning Britches Country Club or something and was wondering if i had gone insane.
never mind.
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I'm not following any of this. In fact, there's at least two threads tonight that seem to be headed off into territory I don't recognise. What are you all on?
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Actually Dal, Mr. Lee is crying. In sympathy. For Ennis.
Well then I guess I missed that appearance.
I'm sure you can tell Wainwright and Lee apart. I mentioned Wainwright because not everybody notices him there. Come to think of it though, I'd like to see Lee in a yellow C & W jacket, jamming on a guitar.
One of those Nudie suits, perhaps? Canary yellow with pink flowers, green stems and leaves, the whole outlined in rhinestones with bell-bottomed pants, the stems, leaves and flowers going all the way up the sides, outlined too, of course.
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I'm not following any of this. In fact, there's at least two threads tonight that seem to be headed off into territory I don't recognise. What are you all on?
MiniA, mouk: take a look at the post: Reply #1284 on: Today at 03:44:08 AM
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Ang Lee is known for putting himself into the charactors while filming, including his current post-production "Lust, Caution". I guess that's why his movies are so full of the emotions and feelings, Lee works with his heart.
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I'm not following any of this. In fact, there's at least two threads tonight that seem to be headed off into territory I don't recognise. What are you all on?
MiniA, mouk: take a look at the post: Reply #1284 on: Today at 03:44:08 AM
Man it's post 1284 that got me to ask the question in the first place, so I am none the wiser :): are we talking of where Jack meets Lureen ( some kind of large bar/dancing hall) or where Jack dances with Lashawn (a city or a college hall presumably)? These are the only two places I can think of with a live band.
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STOP AND PLEASE READ.
The past page of recent posts MAY be OFF TOPIC. It is really hard to tell because it is verging into incoherence.
If we want to continue this discussion, please someone jump in and describe the SPECIFIC scene in the movie or the book that is being referred to (and then the point that is trying to be made).
Lance has bequethed his itchy trigger-finger to me. :) >:D
Sandy
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I thought that was Jwm's post about Thanksgiving..I have the numbers wrong, I guess..
To respond to JWm, re: thanksgiiving.
You bring out an interesting fact of life that is indeed propelled forward, however unintentionally, by Alma.
On BBM, 'they thought themelves invisible'. Ennis gets the wake-up call of his life with 'Jack Nasty'. I used to think he got pissed at Alma for putting Jack down. But Now I think it is much more about what that Jack Nasty means=Jack is queer, and she tickles Ennis's doubts about Jack turning him into one, when they are together. As you said, Jwm, she puts a wedge in betweent them, as Ennis starts to actually grow up a bit, to start to deal with the semi-conscious knowledge of what he might be.
One thing I love about that scene, is the pre-Olympic, national skating going on on TV, with the, lovely climactic classical R-K piece playing in the background, as the couples competeition is going on.
I'll take it over to S&I...
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They thought themselves invisible yet they are observed by two people, Aguirre and Alma, who then choose to confront one of them later, when they are vulnerable. This is after Ennis has reached out to Jack post divorce, only to push him away again.. Ennis's self awareness ripples. He must be in constant turmoil, always trying to justify his actions. Yet, throughout, it seems, he just keeps on seeing Jack because he can do nothing else.
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They thought themselves invisible yet they are observed by two people, Aguirre and Alma, who then choose to confront one of them later, when they are vulnerable. This is after Ennis has reached out to Jack post divorce, only to push him away again.. Ennis's self awareness ripples. He must be in constant turmoil, always trying to justify his actions. Yet, throughout, it seems, he just keeps on seeing Jack because he can do nothing else.
Note how Ennis does not respond to Jack when he tells him about Aquirre, then Ennis later moves back to Aguirre's stomping grounds-Signal, ostensibly, because that is a job for him. You'd think he'd steer clear....
I think he denies it completely, at the Reunion, doesn't 'hear' Jack; then, after Alma, he kind of does hear it and is unconsciously defying it, by moving back there; he is on some kind of road to himself, but never makes it there, before Jack dies on him, at least not until the real end of the story-the Prologue.
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Messages to our friendly present, past and future MODS:
Sandy, sorry if I contributed to the mess, I was only trying to make sure we were talking about the same scene. Won't say another word :-[
Thank you Lancinator for keeping us under control in the past, I have all faith in you to keep them spams at a safe distance :-*
Dal, a warm welcome, and good luck :)
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To echo Mouk:
Lance-Farewell to Sir Don'tSpamAlot
Dal-Are you taking anything for this illness?
Sandy-Best wishes, as always, as you continue keeping we natives from getting too restless
(On a serious note: Congratulations, Dal!)
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Yes, thank you all, and congratulations Dal.
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My congrats, Dal but that means that from now on all the off topic-ers, we are going to torture you? Good luck!! :)
Lance, good luck at "hunting intruders" to keep us "safe".
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Sincerest thanks for your kind words, all.
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the last two pages were like something out of Slaughterhouse Five.
I just realised that we are looking for AL and will look in the morning, I'm beat.
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I had a thought: Has any man here ever been described as 'perky'? Isn't that a description usually applied to a woman, generally? No wonder Ennis got so pissed.... :o Is that a veiled homophobic remark by the bitter Alma? If so, I do understand, even if I do not condone, why he got a bit out of control and twisted her arm. Not exusable, but understandable, in terms of his extreme closeting.
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I had a thought: Has any man here ever been described as 'perky'? Isn't that a description usually applied to a woman, generally? No wonder Ennis got so pissed.... :o Is that a veiled homophobic remark by the bitter Alma? If so, I do understand, even if I do not condone, why he got a bit out of control and twisted her arm. Not exusable, but understandable, in terms of his extreme closeting.
Yes, I think she was goading him.
I also think she actually meant: perky. I'm thinking her vocabulary skills were probably
limited, to begin with. These are not learned folks.
Perky is a word she'd probably use to describe her kids looking cheery.
Even the idea of Ennis looking 'perky' is enough to make me smile. No wonder he
overreacted.
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I had a thought: Has any man here ever been described as 'perky'? Isn't that a description usually applied to a woman, generally? No wonder Ennis got so pissed.... :o Is that a veiled homophobic remark by the bitter Alma? If so, I do understand, even if I do not condone, why he got a bit out of control and twisted her arm. Not exusable, but understandable, in terms of his extreme closeting.
Yes, I think she was goading him.
I also think she actually meant: perky. I'm thinking her vocabulary skills were probably
limited, to begin with. These are not learned folks.
Perky is a word she'd probably use to describe her kids looking cheery.
Even the idea of Ennis looking 'perky' is enough to make me smile. No wonder he
overreacted.
And the kids are both girls :o that always sat wrong with me, that she'd use that with him. Kind of humiliating-of course, he is so shell-shocked, that it probably doesn't really register until she starts in on Jack. that' weren't goin a get by Ennis, not any reamark about his little Nookyfeathers.... ;D
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but isn't perky the perfect word?!
it does carry a hint of condensation in it but subtly.
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Perky I the perfect word. It's funny how he doesn't come back all gloomy because he's got another long wait.
Perky - you can see the blood still coursing through his veins, full of lovely hormones. Perky, like a little dog that's been well and truly taken care of by Jack. Bright-eyed and bushytailed.
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oh yeah. :)
how i love the idea and image of a happy, perky ennis.
:) :) :-\ :'(
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I think that as hard as it was for Jack at the divorce scene, he seen that he was not the only one in Ennis's life that was put behind his job, he was not the only one that Ennis didn't think about what his postponing time with them was doing to the people he loved, but it certainly didn't make him hurt any less.
He had 1 week a month, and yet he had missed last month on a count of his job, he had to realize that Ennis was using his job to spend more time away, from the things in his life he has screwed up. It hurts to see his girls, and what his actions has done to them, he uses his job to keep distance from Jack, it hurts him too much to see him, and then have to leave, so maybe subconsciously he does this as a defense mechanism, for himself. I don't think he does it purposely but he does it all the same.
Jack when he got there, Ennis seemed happy to see him, hugged him and stuff, but he was on edge for sure, after all his girls were in the truck. Jack deep down knew that Ennis had no choice, he couldn't take his girls back to Alma, without telling her why, and it would not go over well, him taking his girls back on his only weekend so he could be with this guy named Jack.\
Jack felt the knife go in slowly when he seen the look on Ennis's face when that truck drove by, that had to hit straight to the core, he had to have felt that after all this time, Ennis was still ashamed of who he was, and of Jack, how would that hurt, so badly that Jack couldn't breathe. He had hurt Jack more at that time, more than if he had punched him, the same pain, just different methods.
Ennis didn't know what to do, he really didn't want Jack to leave but he had no choice. He could see the pain in Jack's face, but he couldn't bring himself to say anything, he hung his head, and couldn't watch him drive away. I felt for Ennis then also, how was he going to enjoy his time with his girls now that he knew that he had just broke the heart of the one person he truly wanted to be with. He proved that by sending out his postcard, telling the only person he could think of, that would care, and want to help him.
Jack being Jack, as always his first thought was of Ennis, he had this over whelming need to always try and make Ennis feel better, he was only thinking that Ennis needed him, and so he found himself heading to Riverton, Jack left himself wide open to Ennis, he was devastated, he had let himself believe beyond all logic that this divorce meant Ennis would be more open to them being together, he would have more time with Ennis, but he was rudely mistaken, again. He thought how could I have been so stupid, to think that this would make the least bit of difference. He now felt and looked like the fool, to come all this way and for what, to be turned away like, an acquaintance, that has over stepped their bounds, or wore out their welcome. Ennis couldn't have hurt him more, if he had ran him over with his truck.
Jack was so hurt he was in a fog, he was beyond reason, he wanted to drive off the first cliff he came to, but instead he settled for Mexico, just as destructive, but he decided to stick around for the next chapter of the Ennis and Jack, cry fest. jwm
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Jwm, i totally agree with what you have written about Jack's feelings and the rejection and the pushing away by Ennis. But as you said Jack loves Enis too much to given up on them and he finds his way around by visiting Mexico. It is sad that Jack would do that so as just to be able to stay in this relationship regardless the cost and the toll it took on him, on his emotional stability and pride over the years.
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Jwm, i totally agree with what you have written about Jack's feelings and the rejection and the pushing away by Ennis. But as you said Jack loves Enis too much to given up on them and he finds his way around by visiting Mexico. It is sad that Jack would do that so as just to be able to stay in this relationship regardless the cost and the toll it took on him, on his emotional stability and pride over the years.
I think, in a way, that going to Mexico was also a way for Jack to punish himself for being
so weak as to put up with Ennis's ways. He must have seen this as a weakness in himself.
His inability to break away from a relationship that was draining him.
But then again, I think that Jack would have done ANYTHING to stay with Ennis. So Mexico
becomes an accommodating factor. It allows Jack to sustain himself until that two or three weeks
comes around again and he can be with the man he loves.
It is, in many ways, a very convoluted mixture for Jack. He obviously needs the sex, so he
makes do with substitutions. Fantasizing about Ennis just as Ennis fantasizes about him when he
'wrings it out a hundred times.' At the risk of seeming crude, I'm assuming that this doesn't stop
for Ennis during the rest of the year without Jack.
This is a very tortured relationship.
And the saddest thing about it is, that it didn't have to be.
Well, maybe I'm wrong there.
Maybe, given who these two men were, it had to happen just this way.
Maybe that's Annie Proulx's point.
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I had a thought: Has any man here ever been described as 'perky'? Isn't that a description usually applied to a woman, generally? No wonder Ennis got so pissed.... :o Is that a veiled homophobic remark by the bitter Alma? If so, I do understand, even if I do not condone, why he got a bit out of control and twisted her arm. Not exusable, but understandable, in terms of his extreme closeting.
umm yeah.
I got described as perky.
It was after weekends with my BF, by a nasty queen who wanted to be the one made PERKY, who managed to be around after every damned weekend..."OOOOOHHH don'e we look PERKY!! Off in the ivory tower again??"
I still wanna knock his block off.
You goin a make sumthin of it????
lolololololol
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We now interrupt your regularly scheduled program for something completely different.
I may be the only person in the world who smirked at the scene of Ennis in the tent on that rainy day with his carving tool and his horsey, but not really carving. As he looked up, presumably at the mountain where Jack might be, the thought that came to mind is, look at Ennis: here he is on a rainy day, kicking back, thinking of Jack, trying to imagine where he is on the mountain, alone in the tent, playing with his wood... OK, but it's all true, just a reference that some may have missed.
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Not that you mention this scene, i remember months ago a poster had pointed out how indicative that was of Ennis never really emotionally growing up, he was very much the same kid that had been dragged to take a good look at Earl's dead body and then life came to a halt for him.
Interesting that Jack had a toy like that in his room at his parents house, me says. Ennis never managed to break free from his fears, his traumatic experience while Jack was willing to try for s'thing better, to take life in his hand....too sad that Ennis couldn't follow him in that......
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absolutely gres. The shock to the system that was the horror of Earl's corpse and the worse horror, beyond all meaning for a kid, of his father's laughter and derision at the sight of their mutilated neighbor was enough to cause some of the 9 yr old's emotions and social skills to shut off completely. Nothing about this made sense. Now God's rules were not so absolute after all! Without warning it could be OK for someone to kill you, or anybody! His feelings had betrayed him, so he had no use for them any more. He couldn't understand anything about this event, so thinking really wasn't of much use to him, either. Some people could be tortured, murdered and have their private parts gruesomely, publicly, and painfully removed, despite all they said in church, but little Ennis had no idea what if anything Earl had done to merit this punishment, and the bastards left it for him to figure out. Of course, Ennis knew it was done by people they knew, maybe even his father was in on it. He had no recourse, no way to reconcile what he knew with what he believed, no one tried to tell him why it happened; he was left to guess that it was because they ranched up together. But the kid went into systems overload and failure in that moment. Jack was his only hope of recovery.
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I noticed an interesting thing my last viewing of the DVD-
In the first scene with Jack at the bar, Ennis is being shy, playing with the beer bottle, not looking at Jack;
In the bar scene with Cassie and AJ, AJ is being shy, playing with the beer bottle, not looking at Cassie-the female Jack, set up to make sure we know Ennis is really gay.
Is she kind of symbolizing the inner Ennis, the one who connects with Jack, underneath his straight posturing? Interesting that Cassie is asking her the same question, that Jack was asking Ennis in a veiled fashion at the bar: Will Ennis come to be my friend/lover?
AJ tells Cassie: 'Maybe he's not the marryin kind." Ennis tells Jack, : 'I'm not the queer kind."
I think Alma Jr subsitutes for Ennis in that scene with Cassie/Jack-she 'speaks' for him, telling Cassie it is unlikely he'll marry her; he is not the marrying kind. It is not about her; she'd good enough. It is about him. She is the female Jack, not the male Jack. This is an Ennis problem. Ennis is the lie; AJ is the truth.
thoughts?
{I moved this to S&I, before it was suggested...}
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I simply do not have a clue where on DCF this is from.
http://www.buzzimage.com/en/work/making_of/33
Everybody who posts here in this particular thread should take a look at this.It's the process by which scenes were actually altered digitally for the film and how they were made--some of our favs, most of which belong in this thread. I think you will find some very interesting additions which will give a bit of insight into what AL tried to convey. And not for nothing, it's quite beautiful.
By the way, do not thank me for finding this. It's off of the forum but I don't have a clue where it was saved from. Just a few days ago, too! If anybody can say, I'd appreciate it lol.
It's driving me batty.
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We now interrupt your regularly scheduled program for something completely different.
I may be the only person in the world who smirked at the scene of Ennis in the tent on that rainy day with his carving tool and his horsey, but not really carving. As he looked up, presumably at the mountain where Jack might be, the thought that came to mind is, look at Ennis: here he is on a rainy day, kicking back, thinking of Jack, trying to imagine where he is on the mountain, alone in the tent, playing with his wood... OK, but it's all true, just a reference that some may have missed.
:D :D :D :D ;) >:D
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I simply do not have a clue where on DCF this is from.
http://www.buzzimage.com/en/work/making_of/33
that was cool! amazing to see what was there and what was created on the computer. i had no idea!!!
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I noticed an interesting thing my last viewing of the DVD-
In the first scene with Jack at the bar, Ennis is being shy, playing with the beer bottle, not looking at Jack;
In the bar scene with Cassie and AJ, AJ is being shy, playing with the beer bottle, not looking at Cassie-the female Jack, set up to make sure we know Ennis is really gay.
Is she kind of symbolizing the inner Ennis, the one who connects with Jack, underneath his straight posturing? Interesting that Cassie is asking her the same question, that Jack was asking Ennis in a veiled fashion at the bar: Will Ennis come to be my friend/lover?
AJ tells Cassie: 'Maybe he's not the marryin kind." Ennis tells Jack, : 'I'm not the queer kind."
I think Alma Jr subsitutes for Ennis in that scene with Cassie/Jack-she 'speaks' for him, telling Cassie it is unlikely he'll marry her; he is not the marrying kind. It is not about her; she'd good enough. It is about him. She is the female Jack, not the male Jack. This is an Ennis problem. Ennis is the lie; AJ is the truth.
thoughts?
{I moved this to S&I, before it was suggested...}
S&I? Might be better in S&E - still a favourite thread of mine. One day I'm going to read my way right through Structure and Editing again because there were some fabulous insights there.
And to your point, CSI, good one. It never struck me that Junior is copying Ennis. I think someone has said she also copies Jack after the divorce in the last scene.
I love the sweet shoulder stroke she gives her daddy as he clears the table after Thanksgiving dinner. Perhaps we need a Junior thread :D
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We now interrupt your regularly scheduled program for something completely different.
I may be the only person in the world who smirked at the scene of Ennis in the tent on that rainy day with his carving tool and his horsey, but not really carving. As he looked up, presumably at the mountain where Jack might be, the thought that came to mind is, look at Ennis: here he is on a rainy day, kicking back, thinking of Jack, trying to imagine where he is on the mountain, alone in the tent, playing with his wood... OK, but it's all true, just a reference that some may have missed.
:D :D :D :D ;) >:D
He's playing with his wood, sure LOL But cowboys whittle like that all the time.It's a way to pass the time.
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"I must wrang it out a hundred times thinking about you..."
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I simply do not have a clue where on DCF this is from.
http://www.buzzimage.com/en/work/making_of/33
Everybody who posts here in this particular thread should take a look at this.It's the process by which scenes were actually altered digitally for the film and how they were made--some of our favs, most of which belong in this thread. I think you will find some very interesting additions which will give a bit of insight into what AL tried to convey. And not for nothing, it's quite beautiful.
By the way, do not thank me for finding this. It's off of the forum but I don't have a clue where it was saved from. Just a few days ago, too! If anybody can say, I'd appreciate it lol.
It's driving me batty.
Ok, we won't thank you. thanks anyway. ;D
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I simply do not have a clue where on DCF this is from.
http://www.buzzimage.com/en/work/making_of/33
Everybody who posts here in this particular thread should take a look at this.It's the process by which scenes were actually altered digitally for the film and how they were made--some of our favs, most of which belong in this thread. I think you will find some very interesting additions which will give a bit of insight into what AL tried to convey. And not for nothing, it's quite beautiful.
By the way, do not thank me for finding this. It's off of the forum but I don't have a clue where it was saved from. Just a few days ago, too! If anybody can say, I'd appreciate it lol.
It's driving me batty.
Ok, we won't thank you. thanks anyway. ;D
This was on TDS, wasn't it? It's really cool, I haven't seen it before.
This is what I do for a buck. :D
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I simply do not have a clue where on DCF this is from.
http://www.buzzimage.com/en/work/making_of/33
Everybody who posts here in this particular thread should take a look at this.It's the process by which scenes were actually altered digitally for the film and how they were made--some of our favs, most of which belong in this thread. I think you will find some very interesting additions which will give a bit of insight into what AL tried to convey. And not for nothing, it's quite beautiful.
By the way, do not thank me for finding this. It's off of the forum but I don't have a clue where it was saved from. Just a few days ago, too! If anybody can say, I'd appreciate it lol.
It's driving me batty.
Ok, we won't thank you. thanks anyway. ;D
This was on TDS, wasn't it? It's really cool, I haven't seen it before.
This is what I do for a buck. :D
Fascinating
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I simply do not have a clue where on DCF this is from.
http://www.buzzimage.com/en/work/making_of/33
that was cool! amazing to see what was there and what was created on the computer. i had no idea!!!
I was surprised the landscape needed so much fine tuning. Surprised but intrigued.
Wow. In a way it's almost like visually making poetry. Putting a 'word' here or there.
Taking this out, adding this. Creatively coddling Jack and Ennis's world. Making perfection.
Editorial perfection, but still, perfection.
Loved the music as well.
Damned fascinating, I'd have said.
Thanks for sharing.
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You guys are going to think I'm nuts...I find it fascinating what Rick does, and to hear him talk about it..I feel like I'm sitting next to a celebrity!
But I had a little surge of uneasiness looking at those digital images in terms of BBM, fascinating as they were; I realized the story in my head, could not be recreated without this technical assist from artists like our Rick. That for me is the diff between the movie and the book. did anyone else feel a slightly weird feeling looking at them, knowing the technical brilliance required to create the images we saw? Seems like these matte artists should be getting paid ALOT to do this kind of work, doing what it is impossible for even great cinematographers to do.
Here's to Rick and his elk, I mean ilk!
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THAT'S IT!!! This was on TDS!!!! Thank You Nax!!!
I have the flue, posted it....and thought it was posted in "Scenes on BBM" but that's what the flu does lololol.
Rick didn't have a clue, that is very cool!!! Thanks for the pm, will check it tomorrow.
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You guys are going to think I'm nuts...I find it fascinating what Rick does, and to hear him talk about it..I feel like I'm sitting next to a celebrity!
But I had a little surge of uneasiness looking at those digital images in terms of BBM, fascinating as they were; I realized the story in my head, could not be recreated without this technical assist from artists like our Rick. That for me is the diff between the movie and the book. did anyone else feel a slightly weird feeling looking at them, knowing the technical brilliance required to create the images we saw? Seems like these matte artists should be getting paid ALOT to do this kind of work, doing what it is impossible for even great cinematographers to do.
Here's to Rick and his elk, I mean ilk!
;D ;D :-* :-*
I would have loved to have worked on BBM. My favorite type of work is when the director wants the shots to be undetectably realistic.
And the work Buzz did certainly qualifies. I knew certain scenes like Jack smoking and looking at the moon were digital fx. But others,
like the background mountains at the jumping off point, went right past me. And that beautiful sunset sky while J&E were riding....
I should have known something was up with that one. Film companies rarely get that lucky with weather and lighting. And you can't
sit around for days waiting for perfect clouds.
I'm a little surprised there weren't more shots that were faked. Like the skies in the opening scene, and at the Twist ranch.
But sometimes Mother Nature comes through...
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You guys are going to think I'm nuts...I find it fascinating what Rick does, and to hear him talk about it..I feel like I'm sitting next to a celebrity!
But I had a little surge of uneasiness looking at those digital images in terms of BBM, fascinating as they were; I realized the story in my head, could not be recreated without this technical assist from artists like our Rick. That for me is the diff between the movie and the book. did anyone else feel a slightly weird feeling looking at them, knowing the technical brilliance required to create the images we saw? Seems like these matte artists should be getting paid ALOT to do this kind of work, doing what it is impossible for even great cinematographers to do.
Here's to Rick and his elk, I mean ilk!
;D ;D :-* :-*
I would have loved to have worked on BBM. My favorite type of work is when the director wants the shots to be undetectably realistic.
And the work Buzz did certainly qualifies. I knew certain scenes like Jack smoking and looking at the moon were digital fx. But others,
like the background mountains at the jumping off point, went right past me. And that beautiful sunset sky while J&E were riding....
I should have known something was up with that one. Film companies rarely get that lucky with weather and lighting. And you can't
sit around for days waiting for perfect clouds.
I'm a little surprised there weren't more shots that were faked. Like the skies in the opening scene, and at the Twist ranch.
But sometimes Mother Nature comes through...
It's beautiful movie, and I too was floored by that sunset shot-it was so erotic too, with them heading away from the sunset, towards darkness-very sexy. You know what happened THAT night..... ;)
I never really knew how much was the work of you guys vs the cinematographers. It is pretty eye-opening......
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The skies in the opening scene and up in Lightening Flat are normal here. Yup. I said normal. You will see for yourself at Estes Park.
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Jo, you'll like this.....famous matte artist Albert Whitlock called the sky the "organ of sentiment"
of the shot. (This refers to anything, really- photos, paintings, movies...)
The "organ" of sentiment. Hmmmmmm........ sounds kinda slashy! :D >:D
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Jo, you'll like this.....famous matte artist Albert Whitlock called the sky the "organ of sentiment"
of the shot. (This refers to anything, really- photos, paintings, movies...)
The "organ" of sentiment. Hmmmmmm........ sounds kinda slashy! :D >:D
oh, goodness gracious me.... :P :D
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hey jack, just read your story on TDS about the chinese on the subway. great story!!!
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Thanks! Know what's funny? After seeing it ON TDS I clearly see every damned thing WRONG with it, stylistically! Why doesn't that happen when you WRITE it???
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Thanks! Know what's funny? After seeing it ON TDS I clearly see every damned thing WRONG with it, stylistically! Why doesn't that happen when you WRITE it???
LOL I know the feeling! I think it's called "Push Enter Remorse," or is that merely another corollary? But that is a great story, not to be concerned.
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well i didn't notice anything wrong with it. i thought it was really funny! (especially since i have lived in mandarin-speaking countries!)
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Thanks! Know what's funny? After seeing it ON TDS I clearly see every damned thing WRONG with it, stylistically! Why doesn't that happen when you WRITE it???
Oh My Dear- Now you know what it's like when you see your work on the movie screen and you see all the things
you would have done better and you have to stare at it for eternity... :o :o :D
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Thanks! Know what's funny? After seeing it ON TDS I clearly see every damned thing WRONG with it, stylistically! Why doesn't that happen when you WRITE it???
Oh My Dear- Now you know what it's like when you see your work on the movie screen and you see all the things
you would have done better and you have to stare at it for eternity... :o :o :D
I finally had to "fake" post what I wrote to see what needed changing, what needed to be cleaned up.
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Until I talked to a friend about it, I'd always thought the scene in Mexico was Jack's first trip there, driven by his disappointment after the divorce. The friend said no, Jack obviously knew what he was doing amongst the hustlers, and so this wasn't his first time. And there was certainly no tentativeness on Jack's face.
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Until I talked to a friend about it, I'd always thought the scene in Mexico was Jack's first trip there, driven by his disappointment after the divorce. The friend said no, Jack obviously knew what he was doing amongst the hustlers, and so this wasn't his first time. And there was certainly no tentativeness on Jack's face.
I agree. Jack certainly knew his way around that part of town....
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I thought he looked emotionally dead, despondent and like a guy who had asked a question about where to go and had it answered.
Mexico was the beginning of Jack's ruination; he and the hustler walk down the road into a literal dark place.
A very dark place.
The way it was shot, the way it was presented, [IMO] show a man who has been traumatised desperately looking for relief, for comfort, even if he has to pay for it.
Mexico is the beginning of Jack's death.
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Until I talked to a friend about it, I'd always thought the scene in Mexico was Jack's first trip there, driven by his disappointment after the divorce. The friend said no, Jack obviously knew what he was doing amongst the hustlers, and so this wasn't his first time. And there was certainly no tentativeness on Jack's face.
I agree. Jack certainly knew his way around that part of town....
But there was tentativeness in his movement, as if he was looking for this place. It just didn't look like he'd done it before. And that grim determination.....
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Yes BB_1, all of his body language and facial expressions show that this is the first time, he is looking for that street. He can't even bring himself to say 'yes', he just nods - 'grim determination' is the word indeed to describe this nod and the way he walks away with the hooker. This nod marks the point of no return. They fade in the dark: Jack as we knew him, as Ennis knew him, has just died. Next time we see him, he is the bitter, older man with a moustache at Thanksgiving, having nothing to thank life for...
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Yes BB_1, all of his body language and facial expressions show that this is the first time, he is looking for that street. He can't even bring himself to say 'yes', he just nods - 'grim determination' is the word indeed to describe this nod and the way he walks away with the hooker. This nod marks the point of no return. They fade in the dark: Jack as we knew him, as Ennis knew him, has just died. Next time we see him, he is the bitter, older man with a moustache at Thanksgiving, having nothing to thank life for...
Reading your posts is bringing me so much closer to the soul of this film. I love lurking on this thread.
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One other note about the alley and its darkness. The camera shows the two guys walk past the light and not only into the darkness, but complete darkness. They disappear before the scene ends.
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Yes, it always chilled me to watch Jack walk into that very dark place....
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Marc/B_1-are you thinking Jack 'goes away' when he is with the hustlers, I mean inside himself? Is this the place his father took him as a toddler, in the bathroom, a place of escape, in his mind, from a 'truth' he at least thought was true, and couldn't bear? His father thinks he's worthless; Ennis rejects him.
????
too simple?
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I have 6to think about it Jo. What always struck me was the literal dark place.Jack walked out of the light. Literally. He disappeared as we knew him-- it's as if the BB Jack died when he entered the dark place in his soul.
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I would say it's not so much inside himself, a standard self-protection thing in abuse cases. Rather, the darkness of the alley seems more as though Jack surrenders to oblivion, gives up on himself.
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I would say it's not so much inside himself, a standard self-protection thing in abuse cases. Rather, the darkness of the alley seems more as though Jack surrenders to oblivion, gives up on himself.
Yeah, I think so too. He is swallowed by the dark.
I mean, the scene is fairly specific.
They disappear into pitch blackness.
Ang Lee uses this in two other instances besides the ending fade, if I remember
correctly. I think it is meant also to indicate passage of time.
As in at the end of the campfire scene when Ennis outlines the parameters of
the relationship and Jack must acquiesce. And later when Jack is left weary and
defeated as Ennis drives away after we're shown the DE.
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I hadn't thought about what having them walk into total darkness meant. Herewith a couple of theories.
1. It doesn't mean anything. It's just a dramatic cinematic moment.
2. It could be a harbinger of death. Because when I first saw the tire iron scene, I thought "Uh oh, he tried to pick up the wrong guy in a bar." And as I posted earlier, I'd thought the alley scene was the first time Jack went to Mexico.
Dramatically, it works better if Jack's post-divorce disappointment drives him to his first hustler.
Remember, if you ever pick up a cinematographer in an alley, you're doomed.
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And a quibble about fadeouts.
I'm pretty sure the alley scene does not fade to black. I think it's a lap dissolve to the turkey in Texas.
At the moment, I'm not sure if the transition from Ennis getting beaten up to the fourth trip to the mountain is a fadeout or a lap dissolve. I think it's the latter.
There's a third fadeout, when Ennis is driving from Jack's parents to his place. And of course the final fadeout.
Cinematically you do that when you want to hold the mood. Which you really, really want to do at the campfire and their final trip.
No need really as Ennis is driving to his place. In fact, it feels like the end of the movie, and the cut to the mailbox is jarring. Until this moment, though, I hadn't thought that there was Ennis driving along with the shirts, with all he has left of Jack. That's a mood worth extending.
If this movie doesn't make you want to believe in an afterlife so Ennis and Jack will be together again, you have a heart of stone.
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In case anyone wondered,
A lap dissolve (sometimes called a cross-fade, mix or simply a dissolve) is a technical term in film editing, most often used in the United States, applying to the process whereby the fading last shot of a preceding scene is superimposed over the emerging first shot (fade in) of the next scene, so that, for a few momemts, both shots are seen simultaneously. (wikipedia)
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I hadn't thought about what having them walk into total darkness meant. Herewith a couple of theories.
1. It doesn't mean anything. It's just a dramatic cinematic moment.
2. It could be a harbinger of death. Because when I first saw the tire iron scene, I thought "Uh oh, he tried to pick up the wrong guy in a bar." And as I posted earlier, I'd thought the alley scene was the first time Jack went to Mexico.
Dramatically, it works better if Jack's post-divorce disappointment drives him to his first hustler.
Remember, if you ever pick up a cinematographer in an alley, you're doomed.
if he was as good looking as the BBM cinematographer, I'd die happy.... ;)
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I'm going to throw myself slightly under the bus here, risking certain laughter and banishment, by asking if anyone's heard the "Jack!", " You're allright, SWEETIE' exhange in the knee to nose scene, as played on film....It is right when the camera goes back to Ennis's face when Jack has taken hold of him, after he turns his head to him.... :P I'm sure it is how the filmmakers 'get to the punch.....'
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Nope
but i want to
LOL
Happy easter JoJo
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Nope
but i want to
LOL
Happy easter JoJo
Tee-hee-it's there, sugar muffin-trust me on this. You heard 'Darlin' in the theater-this is more pronounced, not sotte voce, in the film, than darlin was....
Have fun hearing it!!
Much Bunnies to ya,
J
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Not sure if I hear the "Jack!" or just sense it, but "sweetie" is there for sure. Just asking for a punch. I love that stuff from Jack.
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are you two sure it's not 'baby'???
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Yes, it's "sweetie", sweetie.
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are you guys trying to tell me that jack calls ennis "sweetie" while ennis' nose is bleeding?
??? ??? ???
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are you guys trying to tell me that jack calls ennis "sweetie" while ennis' nose is bleeding?
??? ??? ???
yes, Sweetie-I didn't want to bring it up earlier, until I was truly certain.
Hence the punch-now we can begin to imagine more perhaps, the sort of love story we'd like it to have been..I certainly like to think of it that way. Makes it much sadder, though....'you won't catch me again'. It is doubtful Jack took that risk again-he never got punched again, did he?? Not until the verbal punch at the end, after he lets loose on poor unsuspecting Ennis.
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Yes BB_1, all of his body language and facial expressions show that this is the first time, he is looking for that street. He can't even bring himself to say 'yes', he just nods - 'grim determination' is the word indeed to describe this nod and the way he walks away with the hooker. This nod marks the point of no return. They fade in the dark: Jack as we knew him, as Ennis knew him, has just died. Next time we see him, he is the bitter, older man with a moustache at Thanksgiving, having nothing to thank life for...
This is brilliant mouk! Thanks.
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Mouk, I'd agree it was his first time going after a Mexican hooker- I think with 'riding more than the bulls', he's found himself in some dangerous situations on the circuit, before settling down with Lureen-perhaps even a bit after.
He tells Ennis he leaves the circuit for his physical injuries-'and other reasons'. I think the bashing potential is probably the major other thing.
Where I think your post really hits the target it that it is that Jack does 'die' to a degree,because he realizes Ennis would rather be alone than live with Jack; Jack misunderstood the reason for the phone call, a scene perfectly analyzed by VT Sunset. And the impression from the DE-'..he didn't want to see or feel it was Jack he held'-never goes away, because it is still strong in 1983, at the end. So Jack definitely goes down the rabbit's hole in that scene. He gets confirmation from what Ennis told him in 1967: "I don't wanna be like those guys you see around.." this is a separate thought from 'I don't wanna be killed.' Ennis does not want to be 'queer' and I think he thinks if he avoids moving in with Jack, that will take care of it, along with keeping them safe.
I think Jack now knows this-but he still lives with it until 1983, being unable to let Ennis go, taking what Ennis is able to give. But in 1983-it finally becomes a marred memory. We see it at the moment Jack does, anther great tool of AP's.
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sweetie??!!
sorry but i am having a hard time with this. :-[
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In the film, make-up and JG's acting make Jack age more in the 2 years between the divorce and Thanksgiving than between the age of 19 and 31. Hopeful Jack, Jack who tried so hard to make his dreams come true is replaced by Jack who desperately clings to shreds of his dream, till in 1983, there are no longer even enough shreds to cling to...
sweetie??!!
sorry but i am having a hard time with this. :-[
LOl jnov, me too. But I felt the same about FNIT, yet I heard what I heard :o so I am keeping an open mind. Hoping it is not there though, it just does not fit the 'rough-spoken, inured to the stoic life' image!
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Cowboys DO say sweety to the love of their life.
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OK, I'll go back to the well tonight or tomorrow night in search of "sweetie." I have heard him say "It's OK," or "You're OK," or the like, but never "sweetie." "Sweetie," however, explains the punch much better than previous theories, mine being that Ennis was simply too conflicted by his forbidden feelings for Jack and the fact that their time together had been shortened by a month.
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i'm willing to stay open to the possibility.
just had to do a double-take on that one! :o ;)
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are you two sure it's not 'baby'???
Yes, it's "sweetie", sweetie.
are you guys trying to tell me that jack calls ennis "sweetie" while ennis' nose is bleeding?
yes, Sweetie-I didn't want to bring it up earlier, until I was truly certain.
I hate to disappoint, but I have outstanding earphones. What Jack actually says is 'cutey-pie stud-muffin.'
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oh, well. that is another matter altogether.
i can believe 'cutey-pie stud-muffin' without any problems.
thanks dal, dilemma solved.
;D
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Aw, shucks. I was hoping for "May I sip deeply at the nectar-heavy straw of your passion?" But Ennis might have slugged him after that, too.
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ok, here we go again, all the doubting thomases- ;D
Need I remind you about 'darlin', those of you without hearing loss??
;)
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are you two sure it's not 'baby'???
Yes, it's "sweetie", sweetie.
are you guys trying to tell me that jack calls ennis "sweetie" while ennis' nose is bleeding?
yes, Sweetie-I didn't want to bring it up earlier, until I was truly certain.
I hate to disappoint, but I have outstanding earphones. What Jack actually says is 'cutey-pie stud-muffin.'
I know, Dal-hard for you machos guys to accept :o :D just you wait, shnookums-you'll hear it someday, trust me....
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My earphones say "honey-bunny."
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This whole conversation belongs in TDS roflmao
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At Thanksgiving in Riverton, after Alma Jr. asks Ennis, "Daddy, tell us about how you rode broncs in the rodeo," she looks at Monroe. Any thoughts on why she does that? I don't think there's an insignificant glance in the film.
I think she's wondering if the question bothers Monroe, but I don't know why she'd be concerned about that. Except for this: Maybe she's started to call Monroe "Daddy" when Ennis isn't around.
My goodness, do you think they put that glance in the film for that purpose? Talk about subtle!
Another interesting thing happens in Riverton. There's the rattle of dishes as Ennis leaves the kitchen, and then a big crash of dishes from the kitchen as he nears the front door. I love the thought of Alma throwing a couple of plates onto the floor.
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At Thanksgiving in Riverton, after Alma Jr. asks Ennis, "Daddy, tell us about how you rode broncs in the rodeo," she looks at Monroe. Any thoughts on why she does that? I don't think there's an insignificant glance in the film.
I think she's wondering if the question bothers Monroe, but I don't know why she'd be concerned about that. Except for this: Maybe she's started to call Monroe "Daddy" when Ennis isn't around.
My goodness, do you think they put that glance in the film for that purpose? Talk about subtle!
Another interesting thing happens in Riverton. There's the rattle of dishes as Ennis leaves the kitchen, and then a big crash of dishes from the kitchen as he nears the front door. I love the thought of Alma throwing a couple of plates onto the floor.
Marc, check out how Monroe's head snaps up when she says, 'daddy?" I hate that..it makes me think a) she has started calling him that, or b)he is hoping she is addressing him.
I don't think she'd ever call him 'daddy', seriously. These two-AJ and Ennis-in the film at least, are kind of shown from the beginning to have a serious emotional bond-look how she looks up at him as a baby, completly comfortable and unafraid of his aloof self...
Jo
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That would explain the shot of Monroe which is otherwise not needed as AJ is talking to Ennis.
Think how uncomfortable things might get at their house as Alma and Monroe's biokids start to grow up. They're of course calling Monroe "Daddy," and then what will AJ and Jenniie do? Well, they'll be out of the house fairly soon.
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That would explain the shot of Monroe which is otherwise not needed as AJ is talking to Ennis.
Think how uncomfortable things might get at their house as Alma and Monroe's biokids start to grow up. They're of course calling Monroe "Daddy," and then what will AJ and Jenniie do? Well, they'll be out of the house fairly soon.
'when they got enough sense to move out from under Alma'!
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When Monroe and the girls settle in to watch the ice-skating, he gives them both a good long look, sort of proprietorial.
The sweet stroke that Junior gives Ennis as he clears the table says a great deal.
As for the look at the dinner table, it always seemed to me that the girls were making an effort to bring Ennis into the conversation and were checking out that it was okay first. I also wondered if Alma and Monroe had actually asked them to chat with him to cover any awkward silences.
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I also see AJ as the little adult, the peace-maker, or go between...a classic role the oldest child plays in a crumbling marriage; they can become one of the other parent's confidant, in a way. I mean if you think of the scene with Alma watching J&E drive off-it is a signal to us, as she embraces AJ, but is really also getting comfort from holding her, very mutual-that it is, in her mind, her and the girls beind abandoned. So it is a connection between them-but the connection with Ennis was forged very early, too, one thing Alma and Ennis clearly agreed upon, so did well:Alma is drudging away in the kitchen, while Ennis is comforting the crying baby girls in the bedroom. Whoever has the free moment, esp in a life where hard labor is it. And the casual causality of this becomes a monument of fatherly love to these little girls...kids are deeply affected by those trivial moments-which aren't so trivial, we later find out. I am guessing even the SS tells us this, despite many people saying they don't see the bond between him and the girls in the story: Think of the DE. Ennis is very capable of expressing love, non-verbally. I think his ability to father effectively is why Alma does not deprive him of the girls later-she must see how valuable he has been in their upbringing, how much it would matter to the girls-(I think many women with hphobia would deprive their kids of the gay father, esp in that era....of course if she exposes him-she exposes them all.)
So AJ is torn, to a degree, between both. But I think she is also very proud of him-she picks an extremely macho thing he does and kind of pushes Monroe's nose in it, is the sense I get, a little unwares..He is providing for them-but look at how exciting and manly her REAL daddy is.
And the kind of deadbeat response from Monroe-he sees Ennis as LOSER, you can see it clearly...IMO, of course!
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My earphones say "honey-bunny."
oh, just quit it-all you hard of hearing people, too much Purple Haze blaring out of your 'stereos'- remember those??-in your misspent, 'turn that thing DOWN!" youths. I avoided heavy metal-that's why I can hear it!
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'...when they got enough sense to move out from under Alma'!'
This is a line that has ALWAYS set me to thinking deep thoughts. ;)
What EXACTLY does Ennis mean by this?
We know he's just had a furious to-do at Thanksgiving, but I hardly think the thought
speaks merely to that. Rather I think it is a culmination thought.
It is also, to my way of thinking, a careless sort of thought.
Even a bit cold-blooded.
A culmination of what?
Of her constant harping at him AND the kids?
We're not shown this, but it is entirely possible that Alma takes out her aggravation
on the kids, especially in the latter half of her marriage to Ennis and even in the
marriage afterwards to Monroe. She wouldn't, I don't think, suddenly change her
spots. Perhaps she's realized that in marrying Monroe she's gotten the exact opposite
of Ennis and PERHAPS she'd thought that would be a very good thing - and has
suddenly found out it isn't.
I'm just ruminating here, by the way. Nothing cast in cement.
Alma as written by AP, not nearly as sympathetic a character as Michelle Williams
plays her, maybe she just isn't the nice, simple, country wife that Ennis had expected.
Maybe, with the onslaught of the sixties, she's suddenly discovered that meekness is for
suckers. ;D
Just kidding. Meekness has its moments.
What ELSE could Ennis mean?
I mean, he is implying that her influence is somehow harmful or
wrong-headed.
But in what way?
Could it be that because of her outrage at the idea of Ennis with Jack, Ennis has suddenly
seen her as a person who might inspire hatred for people of his 'sort'?
Nah. Probably not.
What is it about Alma that Ennis has discovered he doesn't like?
He could hardly be commenting on her brainpower - could he? No, because Ennis doesn't
value brainpower much. He's an 'actions speak louder than words kind of guy'.
So then, what?
Here's a thought:
How about the idea that in this thought Ennis shows us that it is better to be out
from under the influence of ANYONE as soon as possible - since that's what happened
to him. His parents died and he more-or-less had to raise himself with the sporadic help
of his older brother and sister. And, of course, he left them as soon as it was obvious
he didn't fit in. 'No more room for me..." Or they, politely or not, made it clear to him
that he'd better move on.
Maybe he sees this as natural. It is entirely possible that in his opinion, it is always better
to be on one's own and out from under the influence. Better to kick the kiddies out
of the nest as soon as humanly possible. After all, look at him. He managed. He survived.
He doesn't need anyone.
Except Jack, of course.
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How about Alma as All-MA-Ennis is the 3rd child. He got out-he hopes the others do, too. Alma is not a 'partner' to him, pshychologically. She plays a role for him; it follows, because there is no sexual attraction. Jack is as close as a true partner comes for Ennis.
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Alma is literally his mother, she was the mother of Aeneas in the aenaid
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Alma is literally his mother, she was the mother of Aeneas in the aenaid
ah, yes, I think you and Mini have pointed that out, huh? Interesting-I read the Aeneid in 3rd-and last-year Latin. Damned if I can remember it....
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I'm jealous, i can barely speak and read and write English and you know the Mother of All Tongues!!!
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I'm jealous, i can barely speak and read and write English and you know the Mother of All Tongues!!!
I knew the mother of all tongues..when you leave school for too long, unless you continue to self-educate-and NOT GET STUCK IN THE DRONE OF CORP LIFE, LIKE ME-you forget. But I do have a pocket latin dictionary around somewhere.
Shall we get together and decline a few nouns, sometime soon? ;) :D
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VERY OT:
I don't know HOW lol!!!
I will have to get you to translate the finest as in fFINEST of Imperial death scenes. The one out of Ammianus Marcellinus, where Valentinian I --a great general and defender of the Empire's frontiers, he fought in the ranks--got so enraged at the insolence to both the Majesty of Rome and the Christian Augustus [himself] by some some Barbarian German Envoys that has apoplexy on the throne, a stroke and drops dead.
Old Valentinian had no patience with barbarian arrogance....
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VERY OT:
I don't know HOW lol!!!
I will have to get you to translate the finest as in fFINEST of Imperial death scenes. The one out of Ammianus Marcellinus, where Valentinian I --a great general and defender of the Empire's frontiers, he fought in the ranks--got so enraged at the insolence to both the Majesty of Rome and the Christian Augustus [himself] by some some Barbarian German Envoys that has apoplexy on the throne, a stroke and drops dead.
Old Valentinian had no patience with barbarian arrogance....
I might give it the ol almost-a-sophomore try!
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I seem to recall I used to translate song titles into Latin for fun. Vene vide de mea is the only one I can now recall.
Of course, in all other scenes (i.e. the ones we weren't shown) there was a great deal of reclining and very little declining.
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I seem to recall I used to translate song titles into Latin for fun. Vene vide de mea is the only one I can now recall.
Of course, in all other scenes (i.e. the ones we weren't shown) there was a great deal of reclining and very little declining.
Magna cum loud...
Speaking of Jack and Ennis doin' it-what are your thoughts on the dis-inclusion of 'that's one of the two things I need right now' from the book, in the final journey thru the mountains together, on the natural 'bench' beneath the meadow?
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there was a great deal of reclining and very little declining.
A lot of conjugation though.
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^^^^^^^
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
To quote one E. del Mar, "Very good".
CSI, I have petitioned all the world heads of government to have "That's one a the two things I need right now" reinstated to its proper place. There ain't never enough nookie, never enough.
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Alma is literally his mother, she was the mother of Aeneas in the aenaid
A stretch, bb_1, a veritable stretch.
There ARE some of us who know next to nothing about mythology or Homer
or the Greeks or whomever you mean. I do have a copy of a good translantion of
THE ODYSSEY sitting here, but have yet to attempt it.
Too busy with life.
Wait, wait, now that I think on it, you're talking Virgil - right?
Actually, I think it's a bit silly to dig so deeply into the meaning of any story that we wind
up stuck in a mindset. Actually, I'm sure if we dig hard enough we can find comparisons
to BBM in the cave paintings of early man.
Bear with me today, I'm in a Mood. ;D
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I'm sure if we dig hard enough we can find comparisons
to BBM in the cave paintings of early man.
Well there is that cave painting of an elk hunt.
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and of sheep, too
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Proto-Jack: Is that a spear in his hand, or is he happy to see you? ;D
Proto-Ennis: Early cavemen were taught to revere, not play with, fire.
Ducks, waits for Geico caveman to log on.
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there was a great deal of reclining and very little declining.
A lot of conjugation though.
See I was staying away from the verbs... :D
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And I'm being a good boy dal
It ain't easy.
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RE; the Earl scene:
The expression on that little boy's face-isn't it similair to Heath's expression when Twist SR is telling him about Jack's so-called 'plans'? I find it almost eerie...I wonder if that was the goal-Ennis's world getting pulled out from under him, both times-the reality that such things could really happen at age 9, shaking him out of his safe child's world-oh that damn dad, I just hate HIM!!; and then again, him being shaken out of a state of the mind as an adult, finding out what was 'real' to him was not really known. As a child, he sees the outside world's ugly underbelly; as an adult he sees the ugly underbelly of the heart/mind.
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Alma is literally his mother, she was the mother of Aeneas in the aenaid
A stretch, bb_1, a veritable stretch.
There ARE some of us who know next to nothing about mythology or Homer
or the Greeks or whomever you mean. I do have a copy of a good translantion of
THE ODYSSEY sitting here, but have yet to attempt it.
Too busy with life.
Wait, wait, now that I think on it, you're talking Virgil - right?
Actually, I think it's a bit silly to dig so deeply into the meaning of any story that we wind
up stuck in a mindset. Actually, I'm sure if we dig hard enough we can find comparisons
to BBM in the cave paintings of early man.
Bear with me today, I'm in a Mood. ;D
Sorry, Rosewood, but the connections between the Aeneid and BBM are too numerous to be coincidental. Even AP slipping in such refs as the Wolf Ears Bar, when there is no other obvious reason to call it that, have to be considered. She was making a point about Ennis when she had him marry a woman called Alma and then call his daughter Alma. She says she expects her readers to work.
All this has been posted ad nauseum on the S&I thread.
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yeah, it's made me plenty nauseous many times.... :D
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yeah, it's made me plenty nauseous many times.... :D
Me too.
I guess that's my point. :D
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...of course, it doesn't STOP ME!!!! :P :D ;)
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Nor me! ;D
Although lately, I admit, I'm starting to run low on fresh ideas so
I think I'll step back a bit and ruminate, see if inspiration strikes.
Trying to get ready for my daughter's wedding coming up in May,
has given me a new perspective on things important to the moment. :D
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Nor me! ;D
Although lately, I admit, I'm starting to run low on fresh ideas so
I think I'll step back a bit and ruminate, see if inspiration strikes.
Trying to get ready for my daughter's wedding coming up in May,
has given me a new perspective on things important to the moment. :D
Oh, my..how exciting! Yes, wedding plans will take your mind off of EVERYTHING else-feel free to jump in and we can discuss Alma's wedding barrette....
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yeah, it's made me plenty nauseous many times.... :D
Me too.
I guess that's my point. :D
Cheeky pair. That's not nausea. It's just that every time I log off you feel the need to try and puke your guts up in an alley somewhere.
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Speaking of the wedding scene.....Do we think those are Ennis's brother and the long-haired women is his sister? She's not exactly the perkiest creature is she? What are your gut impressions?? I am even wondering if KE would have showed up, all the way from Signal-the bro and sis probably were desperate to start their own families, after losing both parents and raising the little one; they might stay far, far away...pure speculation , I know..But interesting to see what Ang Lee did...and maybe try to see why..
OMT-look how anxious Ennis is to kiss Alma-he almost jumps the gun; he wants that real moment, the moment he can say, I'm a man, I've made it. I die inside to think how unhappy he will find out he is without Jack..
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Speaking of the wedding scene.....Do we think those are Ennis's brother and the long-haired women is his sister? She's not exactly the perkiest creature is she? What are your gut impressions?? I am even wondering if KE would have showed up, all the way from Signal-the bro and sis probably were desperate to start their own families, after losing both parents and raising the little one; they might stay far, far away...pure speculation , I know..But interesting to see what Ang Lee did...and maybe try to see why..
OMT-look how anxious Ennis is to kiss Alma-he almost jumps the gun; he wants that real moment, the moment he can say, I'm a man, I've made it. I die inside to think how unhappy he will find out he is without Jack..
I really like what I think you're saying about the wedding kiss and the subsequent feeling of loss: Ennis does actually seem to believe that marrying Alma will solve his problems; this kiss emblematic of his new status. The major, life-changing moment of stepping into his own family could be the fuel for his happiness in the sledding scene. "I made it." Excellent observation CSI. This even validates "This ain't her fault." Then, of course, a year and a child later he realizes his mistake.
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It's tragic, that kiss. I suspect he began having doubts sooner than a year but he couldn't tie them down. He's acting out love's young dream yet he must start wondering why the sex isn't as mind-blowing as he was expecting.
This is a little OT but in one book Annie Proulx has a character who is a big ladies' man get married and have his wife pregnant on their wedding night. Is she suggesting that Ennis took his time because despite their being young, fertile and enthusiastic, it still took a few weeks until he got the hang of it, unlike with Jack where no instruction manual was needed?
CSI, I assumed they were Ennis's family, such as it was.
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In December Ennis married Alma Beers and had her pregnant by mid-January
It looks like he was not necessaril enjoying sex with her, but he was going at it as much as he could because making her pregnant was tangible proof to him that he was a real man. He was trying to prove something to himself, and succeeded, which helped him live in a lie (more or less) for a year. Once baby was born, for some reason, he could no longer lie to himself. Perhaps because of the surge of love for the baby, as has been mentioned before. The first time he loved somebody consciously, and then he made the connexion with the feelings he had felt for Jack.
Or because even the baby did not fill that huge void in his life and he had to admit that if this did not, nothing ever would.
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In December Ennis married Alma Beers and had her pregnant by mid-January
It looks like he was not necessaril enjoying sex with her, but he was going at it as much as he could because making her pregnant was tangible proof to him that he was a real man. He was trying to prove something to himself, and succeeded, which helped him live in a lie (more or less) for a year. Once baby was born, for some reason, he could no longer lie to himself. Perhaps because of the surge of love for the baby, as has been mentioned before. The first time he loved somebody consciously, and then he made the connexion with the feelings he had felt for Jack.
Or because even the baby did not fill that huge void in his life and he had to admit that if this did not, nothing ever would.
I agree with your take on this sentence from the book. I've always felt Proux did a masterful job (and Lee, likewise) in showing readers what many gay men do when trying to exist in a straight world -- marry and try to prove to themselves that they really aren't attracted to or have feelings for men. In Ennis, she's showing us how impossible and soul-killing this is to do.
I agree with your last sentence, that the baby did not fill that huge void or ease his loneliness. He was probably in despair realizing that this is what his whole life looked like: an emptiness at its core. That's the impression I get from the scene where he walks in the kitchen at the line cabin, gives Alma a perfunctory pat, and then tells Alma, "if I had two hands I could" in response to her request to help with the girls. There's frustration in his response, and you get the impression (from his posture in that scene) is that he's just going through the motions in this domestic life. There's no joy in it, except with his children.
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Interestingly, when Mini first pointe out about the 'took about a year' as being tied in time to AJ's birth, I was like, huh? Then it struck me-he could not see Alma as a partner; and he had not other reference point, except for parental love-and Jack. That is when he knew...
Good point, Lauren, about the facade, known or not, that many gay men must live under; we have examples of our gay fellow posters coming out to themselves after years of marriage-
I know Mouk you feel Ennis specialized Jack and him, and that you don't not necessarily agree he knows he is gay underneath-but either way, he is certainly living in a lie of sorts; he has made vows he is simply, structurally unable to keep.
:(
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....I suspect he began having doubts sooner than a year but he couldn't tie them down.....
...thought I ate somethin bad at that place in Dubois. Took me a year a figure out it was that I shouldn't a let you outa my sights....
That's a whole year wrestling with this...whew!
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In December Ennis married Alma Beers and had her pregnant by mid-January
It looks like he was not necessaril enjoying sex with her, but he was going at it as much as he could because making her pregnant was tangible proof to him that he was a real man. He was trying to prove something to himself, and succeeded, which helped him live in a lie (more or less) for a year. Once baby was born, for some reason, he could no longer lie to himself. Perhaps because of the surge of love for the baby, as has been mentioned before. The first time he loved somebody consciously, and then he made the connexion with the feelings he had felt for Jack.
Or because even the baby did not fill that huge void in his life and he had to admit that if this did not, nothing ever would.
Oh for sure, I agree with this completely.
Ennis stopped being fooled after the baby was born.
Or perhaps it's that he stopped fooling himself.
Then he began waiting for Jack.
In earnest.
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I just realised that in the film, they seem to have transferred this 'baby-emotional void-seek out my real love' link onto Jack. In the scene with newborn baby Bobby, Jack is treated, and feels like, an outsider. In the next scene, Ennis receives the postcard.
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Hi there,
I'm new to the forum, but as most of you I adore the film and the book.
I'm writing an essay on Brokeback mountain for my uni exams, therefore i really need your help here!!!
I have seen frontal naked pictures on the internet of Heath Ledger jumping off a cliff and taking a plunge into a lake and I'm sure that is a deleted scene from the Brokeback Mountain film.
I remember that in the film's trailer there is such a scene, where both Ennis and Jack jump naked off a cliff into the water.
I really need a confirmation here, as I am including this in my argumentation.
If there's anyone that knows anything about this scene please let me know!!
MANY THANX
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gmfreee, the scene you are refering to is not a deleted scene. It is in the film. It is not a frontal close-up though.
check this link http://www.stripedwall.com/cpg/thumbnails.php?album=173&page=14...it will help you a lot
And a big wellcome.
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Speaking of the wedding scene.....Do we think those are Ennis's brother and the long-haired women is his sister? She's not exactly the perkiest creature is she? What are your gut impressions?? I am even wondering if KE would have showed up, all the way from Signal-the bro and sis probably were desperate to start their own families, after losing both parents and raising the little one; they might stay far, far away...pure speculation , I know..But interesting to see what Ang Lee did...and maybe try to see why..
OMT-look how anxious Ennis is to kiss Alma-he almost jumps the gun; he wants that real moment, the moment he can say, I'm a man, I've made it. I die inside to think how unhappy he will find out he is without Jack..
I really like what I think you're saying about the wedding kiss and the subsequent feeling of loss: Ennis does actually seem to believe that marrying Alma will solve his problems; this kiss emblematic of his new status. The major, life-changing moment of stepping into his own family could be the fuel for his happiness in the sledding scene. "I made it." Excellent observation CSI. This even validates "This ain't her fault." Then, of course, a year and a child later he realizes his mistake.
tx. I think Rick B did a photocap many moons ago where he had Ennis walking off from BBM and thinking to himself he couldn't wait to do it with Alma, or some such thing...I do believe he kept her as a bookend on BBM-he tells Jack about her up front; then once again, 'like I tole you, me and Alma's gettin married..etc." I think he kept Alma, or his sense of being 'straight' thru their engagement in his sights-and let Jack out of them. I think this is what also allowed him to be as he was with Jack-until that fateful all-nighter in the camp. He woke up, no doubt, next to Jack feelin all perky..and then those darn sheep have to mix-the wrath of God.
So yeah, I agree; she is his touchstone during his awakening to Jack-only the awakening doesn't finalize, as you said, for year later.
Janjo, I think, has speculated, Ennis knew and was basically not telling Jack the whole truth about that....If that is the case, I wonder why he said yes to meeting with Jack, I mean if he knew he was queer...i would think that would stop him from proceeding. He'd try to fix it, I think. There was an unused line in one of the scripts, where they had Ennis complaining to Jack in the last scene that he could 'lick this thing' if Jack would just let him alone..I wonder. I think the love was too powerful, so E had to rationalize his way around it-it trumped, 'I'm not no queer' for the time being.
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gmfreee, the scene you are refering to is not a deleted scene. It is in the film. It is not a frontal close-up though.
check this link http://www.stripedwall.com/cpg/thumbnails.php?album=173&page=14...it will help you a lot
And a big wellcome.
Many Thanx.
I did see on the internet frontal nude shots of Heath though...I guess the director later decided not to include those in the final cut.
thak you
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Gmfree, I think those were photos taken by papparazzi - they were never meant to be part of the film.
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Gmfree,
I can second what Desecra said, those internet shots of HL were not meant to be part of the movie. And they were not shot as part of the movie and then discarded; the papparazzi were scouting out the hills.
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Let me hear what you think about this, if you like? This is the night before the last scene, but I fear it is not about J&E directly:
Ennis tells Jack Cassie wants to go to nursing school. He has picked a caretaker-someone who is, yes, like the female version of the ministering angel, Jack...maybe that explains why it lasted so long. Cassie was always trying to take care of him..so the relationship had some advantages to Ennis. He had someone to hold him outside of Jack during the separations. Thoughts? ...
I wonder what he told her about the fishing trips? And is it a continuity error, that Ennis meets Cassie like years before 1983-but only mentions her to Jack then? I think Des might've talked about this...This is about Cassie, but also about J&E, so I stuck it in a neutral spot. Hope that is ok, mod.
:)
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I guess he mentions her then because it suits the film to introduce her as a result of his post-Txgiving paranoia but they still have to stick to the story and the conversation which ensues there and includes Jack's confession of loneliness.
But if I had to give a rationale as to why he never mentions her before I'd say it's maybe because she is insignificant to him and he only brings her up to ward off Jack's questions about not remarrying.
btw, a few pages back on Planer Heath, Arethusa posted some beautiful screencaps of the scene where Cassie picks Ennis up. They'd be funny if they weren't so sad. Cassie with her hopes high of landing a nice-looking fellow and Ennis looking bemused, reluctant, resigned, lost, you name it.
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I guess he mentions her then because it suits the film to introduce her as a result of his post-Txgiving paranoia but they still have to stick to the story and the conversation which ensues there and includes Jack's confession of loneliness.
But if I had to give a rationale as to why he never mentions her before I'd say it's maybe because she is insignificant to him and he only brings her up to ward off Jack's questions about not remarrying.
btw, a few pages back on Planer Heath, Arethusa posted some beautiful screencaps of the scene where Cassie picks Ennis up. They'd be funny if they weren't so sad. Cassie with her hopes high of landing a nice-looking fellow and Ennis looking bemused, reluctant, resigned, lost, you name it.
I also had the sense of 'can't believe someone is paying attention to me'.
I suppose I should've brought this up in Ennis and Cassie, about the caretaking, I mean. I just might...
tX, Mini.
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I'll say something here and then something on the Last Scene with J&E about a possible reason for Ennis waiting literally years to mention Cassie to Jack.
Yes, there are a bunch of emotions going across Ennis's face as Cassie drags him to the dance floor. One possibility: here we go again. And the dragging may be symbolic of Ennis being dragged--against his will--into another straight relationship. He did try, after all, to avoid it and go to the men's room instead. Hmm, the men's room. Coincidence? I don't think so.
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I'll say something here and then something on the Last Scene with J&E about a possible reason for Ennis waiting literally years to mention Cassie to Jack.
Yes, there are a bunch of emotions going across Ennis's face as Cassie drags him to the dance floor. One possibility: here we go again. And the dragging may be symbolic of Ennis being dragged--against his will--into another straight relationship. He did try, after all, to avoid it and go to the men's room instead. Hmm, the men's room. Coincidence? I don't think so.
Well, since Cassie is camouflage, I don't see why he WOULD mention it.
Actually, the fact that he DOESN'T tells us everything.
Ennis KNOWS that women don't really matter between him and Jack.
It is the unwritten law, I suppose.
In that scene where Cassie 'drags' Ennis unto the dance floor, Ennis goes along
to get along in a very unpleasant way. I mean, have some pity for this girl who is drooling
all over you, Ennis. Sure, she knows what she's doing, but so do you.
The fact that Ennis ALLOWS himself to be coerced shows me something less than attractive
about his character. He could care less about her feelings except where they interact with his
need to be momentarily coddled. Very cold blooded. (Yes, yes, I am aware that men do
this ALL the time...I'm merely speaking to the 'how' of this scene and its effect on me.)
And no, the excuse that she wouldn't let him alone doesn't cut it.
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and Rosewood, if we tie this to the scene that preceeds it, it could be the reason Ennis is receptive to her....Jack did not ease his mind over 'like they know'-so he has more doubt, probably, than before. Cassie is 'proof' perhaps that , oh, ok, I'm not queer if she is attracted to me. I think his smile says that, as he leans foward to talk to her. Perhaps he thinks he will be turned on by her, somehow, magically, as he thought with Alma...
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Well, just because this scene follows doesn't exactly mean that this
scene FOLLOWS, if you know what I mean.
I tend to think of a lot of these scenes as separate onto themselves.
Sort of like little separate tableaux. A travelogue, if you will, of Jack and Ennis's lives.
Not ALL of them necessarily following on the preceding action.
Very much as the short story was told.
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Well, just because this scene follows doesn't exactly mean that this
scene FOLLOWS, if you know what I mean.
I tend to think of a lot of these scenes as separate onto themselves.
Sort of like little separate tableaux. A travelogue, if you will, of Jack and Ennis's lives.
Not ALL of them necessarily following on the preceding action.
Very much as the short story was told.
Interesting..since both are fabricated by the filmmakers, I've always thought the first led in to the second. I mean it gives credence to him responding to her, ya know?
Just my HO. :o I mean, humble opinion 8)
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The film is a series of tableaux, but it is in more of a chronological order than the book. Apart from the DE flashback of course. I agree that the scene on Ennis's growing paranoia leads to the scene of him accepting a relationship with a woman even though it was not his thing. The scene with Cassie without the paranoia scene just before would not make so much sense.
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sigh
Ennis was soooo queer....and so rigid.
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The film is a series of tableaux, but it is in more of a chronological order than the book. Apart from the DE flashback of course. I agree that the scene on Ennis's growing paranoia leads to the scene of him accepting a relationship with a woman even though it was not his thing. The scene with Cassie without the paranoia scene just before would not make so much sense.
Strictly speaking, I suppose we could go along with this.
But my meaning, I think, is that we don't NECESSARILY HAVE TO go along with ipso facto.
The scene of Cassie picking up Ennis could have, actually, been included at any time since we
KNOW that Ennis needs women in his life to maintain and bolster his pretense of heterosexuality.
So at any given point, he would, likely prefer to have a woman hanging around for camouflage.
Moot point though, after the final confronation when Ennis, I would hope, finally sees HIMSELF
and the relationship in clearer focus, though certainly not in more comfortable terms.
At that point, I think, in the film, he swears off women and would, if he were hit on by one
at a bar or elsewhere, just walk away from the situation. Maybe he even thought of himself then,
FINALLY, as 'taken'.
In the short story, the fact that Ennis KNOWS Linda Higgins' name says to me that he might
have thought about her as a person, rather than just 'woman' and makes me wonder if he
might have still continued, now and then, to be seen around town with a woman in order
to continue to maintain his facade of 'normalcy'. Don't know, really. It's doubtful, but...
Although his "one's enough" is fairly specific and shows us his thinking at that point in time.
I think that the "I swear..." moment probably tells us that Ennis will remain devoted to Jack
and Jack alone for the rest of his life. BUT he idea that he knows the clerk's name continues
to bother me....
Unless, and I promise this is my last surmise :D...
Unless it means that AFTER Jack's death, Ennis forced himself to pay a bit MORE attention to
the people in his 'social' orbit?? To try, in some strange way, to be a 'better' person?
For Jack's sake?
Am I making any sense?
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I like what you have written above, Rosewood. However i believe that the "i swear" to Jack , to his dead once-in-a-lifetime love ties in better with the version of Ennis trying to be more close to people, to let himslef being more emotionally open to people and it shows by knowing that woman's name, which is a sign of a need to connect with people...
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I like what you have written above, Rosewood. However i believe that the "i swear" to Jack , to his dead once-in-a-lifetime love ties in better with the version of Ennis trying to be more close to people, to let himslef being more emotionally open to people and it shows by knowing that woman's name, which is a sign of a need to connect with people...
Yeah, probably.
Maybe.
I'd be much surer if we didn't have the bleakness of the prologue warning us off.
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I am not sure at all that Ennis felt that he should get closer to people for Jack's sake, although I know that many people see it this way. I don't understand why. Jack never asked him such a thing, Jack wanted him for himself. It may well be that after realising the big mistake he made, Ennis did decide to open up and be more available and openly loving, but why should he make a promise to Jack about it?
I think, like Rosewood, that he swears he will remain devoted to Jack and Jack alone for ever, as symbolised by the one postcard and 2 entertwined shirts: one love, two hearts beating together. Period.
Ennis's only other love is his daughter. Her jumper is in the closet too, but in another part of it: it's another type of love. The closet is Ennis's heart, with his loves, his memories and his secrets. The window next to it is his life. Sorry, wrong thread :o
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I am not sure at all that Ennis felt that he should get closer to people for Jack's sake, although I know that many people see it this way. I don't understand why. Jack never asked him such a thing, Jack wanted him for himself. It may well be that after realising the big mistake he made, Ennis did decide to open up and be more available and openly loving, but why should he make a promise to Jack about it?
I think, like Rosewood, that he swears he will remain devoted to Jack and Jack alone for ever, as symbolised by the one postcard and 2 entertwined shirts: one love, two hearts beating together. Period.
Ennis's only other love is his daughter. Her jumper is in the closet too, but in another part of it: it's another type of love. The closet is Ennis's heart, with his loves, his memories and his secrets. The window next to it is his life. Sorry, wrong thread :o
Or rather, the window showing us the blazing color outside 'outside over there' is a reminder
of what Ennis COULD have had. Had he so chosen.
Or so I see it.
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Mouk, i didn't mean to say that he swears s'thing like that to Jack. With his "i swear" to Jack we're shown an Ennis coming emotionally as closer as ever to Jack. And having that in mind i can see an Ennis becoming more open to people.Rosewood said it is telling that the woman who sells the postcards has a name in the SS and i suspect it might be because AP wants to show us an Ennis who wants to connect with other people even if that is in a very primal and very basic stage. However i don't see him being able to make a romantic relationship with s'one else, either. But there are other relatiosnhips in his life that deserve his effort to make them better, more meaningfull and in depth, if you want (hope i have chosen the right words for what i want to say)
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gres, ok I can live with that :) :) Sorry I misunderstood what you meant. I had seen in the past people who said Ennis swears to Jack that he will be more open to people and opportunities, this really does not ring true to me.
Rosewood, the window: interesting take. For me it is his future life: a long, boring, lonely road in the bleak plain with some hope only the horizon just below the sky ie his only hope is in death. Some people see this window view as a happy landscape, some don't. Fascinating, how we all react differently.
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I am not sure at all that Ennis felt that he should get closer to people for Jack's sake, although I know that many people see it this way. I don't understand why. Jack never asked him such a thing, Jack wanted him for himself. It may well be that after realising the big mistake he made, Ennis did decide to open up and be more available and openly loving, but why should he make a promise to Jack about it?
I think, like Rosewood, that he swears he will remain devoted to Jack and Jack alone for ever, as symbolised by the one postcard and 2 entertwined shirts: one love, two hearts beating together. Period.
Ennis's only other love is his daughter. Her jumper is in the closet too, but in another part of it: it's another type of love. The closet is Ennis's heart, with his loves, his memories and his secrets. The window next to it is his life. Sorry, wrong thread :o
Or rather, the window showing us the blazing color outside 'outside over there' is a reminder
of what Ennis COULD have had. Had he so chosen.
Or so I see it.
It is interesting what how we all see things differently in the window. The first time I saw the film I noticed the blazing color and felt it was a reflection of BBM and the brilliant light up there, a reminder of what they had and what the two of them were all about: brilliance. Since it is framed, I felt it was contained, as it had always been, in Ennis' heart.
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This is interesting stuff-I found the line about him busying himself at the postcard rack, to be kind of pretentious-like he wants to be seen, but he does not really no how to connect.
'one's enough', is short and to the point.
I think the name-Linda Higgins, aka, pretty Richard-is no accident. I think she may be a metaphor herself, not to go completely S&I-it is Ennis being reflected back, his gay inner self, perhaps his dawning rising that he is in face Q deep down? and being Ennis, would interpret that as somewhat less than masculine-pretty Richard. If he associates Jack with the dead Earl-he is the surviving Rich. He washes those horsey blankets, cleansing his soul?-now he is clean enough to bring the postcard into the trailer, to set up the shrine. Clean and good enough for Jack.
That may be why he knows her name-it is another touch of unreality meant as a literary device to show us Ennis's inner workings..
-or she is a potential date.
You decide.
;D
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It is interesting what how we all see things differently in the window. The first time I saw the film I noticed the blazing color and felt it was a reflection of BBM and the brilliant light up there, a reminder of what they had and what the two of them were all about: brilliance. Since it is framed, I felt it was contained, as it had always been, in Ennis' heart.
I noticed the color, too. And blasphemous as it might be, I don't necessarily see Ennis vowing to be the gay Wyoming version of the Widow of Windsor. My impression of the last scene was that he was at a crossroads.
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I'm generally incapable of analysing the last scene as it's the signal for me to fall on the floor in a sobbing heap. But thinking about it, what we see is the closet open and the shirts in full view, the centre of Ennis's attention. Once the door is closed we are able to see the outside world which to me appears neither dull nor bright, just real. So the shirts and the open door stand between us/Ennis and the view of outside. If he looks at the shirts he can't see out the window.
If we tie it into the prologue, there Ennis is in his trailer with the shirts but that day he has to leave. He has to engage with the outside world. It's dangerous, and we know that the shirts will go with him, just as Jack will always go with him, but he's out of there, maybe being with his daughter for a while, looking for another job.
Re. the postcard rack. He stepped into the gift shop and busied himself. He is making the effort. He is deliberately doing this thing, spending money on Jack at last. And he's doing it openly, as one of you said, kind of drawing attention to himself. He is, in his own way, coming out, at least as regards his love of Jack. He knows Linda and she knows him so there is a danger involved. He is not in some anonymous shop where no-one knows him, where he could buy his postcard and get out. He is in Signal, making a purchase in a situation where she might say later, "I saw Ennis buying a postcard of Brokeback Mountain. I wonder what that 's all about."
I don't think Linda is a potential date. She's a bit like Don Wroe in that it allows us to see than for all his hangups, Ennis wasn't a complete loner.
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Rosewood, the window: interesting take. For me it is his future life: a long, boring, lonely road in the bleak plain with some hope only the horizon just below the sky ie his only hope is in death. Some people see this window view as a happy landscape, some don't. Fascinating, how we all react differently.
Then why the blaze of yellow? Why not some grim gray road or some dead tree or something?
It is the blaze of yellow and possibly, if I remember correctly, some green, that calls our
attention to that 'other' thing. It is meant to evoke something or other but damn if I can
say EXACTLY what.
So I've come up with the 'outside over there' scenario. Good enough for Maurice Sendak,
good enough for me.
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I'm generally incapable of analysing the last scene as it's the signal for me to fall on the floor in a sobbing heap. But thinking about it, what we see is the closet open and the shirts in full view, the centre of Ennis's attention. Once the door is closed we are able to see the outside world which to me appears neither dull nor bright, just real. So the shirts and the open door stand between us/Ennis and the view of outside. If he looks at the shirts he can't see out the window.
If we tie it into the prologue, there Ennis is in his trailer with the shirts but that day he has to leave. He has to engage with the outside world. It's dangerous, and we know that the shirts will go with him, just as Jack will always go with him, but he's out of there, maybe being with his daughter for a while, looking for another job.
Re. the postcard rack. He stepped into the gift shop and busied himself. He is making the effort. He is deliberately doing this thing, spending money on Jack at last. And he's doing it openly, as one of you said, kind of drawing attention to himself. He is, in his own way, coming out, at least as regards his love of Jack. He knows Linda and she knows him so there is a danger involved. He is not in some anonymous shop where no-one knows him, where he could buy his postcard and get out. He is in Signal, making a purchase in a situation where she might say later, "I saw Ennis buying a postcard of Brokeback Mountain. I wonder what that 's all about."
I don't think Linda is a potential date. She's a bit like Don Wroe in that it allows us to see than for all his hangups, Ennis wasn't a complete loner.
Linda and the Cabin: Dawn Rose on Pretty Richard...Ennis is waking up.
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I like what you have written above, Rosewood. However i believe that the "i swear" to Jack , to his dead once-in-a-lifetime love ties in better with the version of Ennis trying to be more close to people, to let himslef being more emotionally open to people and it shows by knowing that woman's name, which is a sign of a need to connect with people...
Yeah, probably.
Maybe.
I'd be much surer if we didn't have the bleakness of the prologue warning us off.
nay.
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I'm generally incapable of analysing the last scene as it's the signal for me to fall on the floor in a sobbing heap.
[snip]
Re. the postcard rack. He stepped into the gift shop and busied himself. He is making the effort. He is deliberately doing this thing, spending money on Jack at last. And he's doing it openly, as one of you said, kind of drawing attention to himself. He is, in his own way, coming out, at least as regards his love of Jack. He knows Linda and she knows him so there is a danger involved. He is not in some anonymous shop where no-one knows him, where he could buy his postcard and get out. He is in Signal, making a purchase in a situation where she might say later, "I saw Ennis buying a postcard of Brokeback Mountain. I wonder what that 's all about."
I don't think Linda is a potential date. She's a bit like Don Wroe in that it allows us to see than for all his hangups, Ennis wasn't a complete loner.
i like what you say about the gift shop here.
as for the first sentence, oh yeah. sort of.
i have no clue what the whole window thing is about because i always miss it. i am so busy screaming "YOU SWEAR WHAT??!!!" at the screen that i see nothing but a red haze. (https://ultimatebrokebackforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi148.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fs36%2Fsomh%2Fwallbash.gif&hash=b04249008f7f553400d3b5ac83c7cabc37587d31)
it's a good thing i never saw this film in a public place. ::) >:(
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jnov, we know what he swears, don't we?
I always thought we knew cause it's not that hard; he's a man of few words... if you know Ennis Delmar, you know what he means. And ithought we had figured it out a long time ago. It's not as if his I Swear would be the paragraphs upon paragraphs we write. It was 2 stinkin words.
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you know there are moments, usually after a couple glasses of red wine (there goes that alcohol again ;)), when i can be philosophical and let be with "i swear." but most other times, i want it spelled out!
i want to hear him say exactly what he is swearing to! SPEAK, ENNIS, SPEAK!!!!
oh and all that stuff not so long ago about enjoying mystery in life and ambiguity. WELL, NOT IN THIS SITUATION!!! :) :) :) ::) >:D
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Rosewood, the window: interesting take. For me it is his future life: a long, boring, lonely road in the bleak plain with some hope only the horizon just below the sky ie his only hope is in death. Some people see this window view as a happy landscape, some don't. Fascinating, how we all react differently.
Then why the blaze of yellow? Why not some grim gray road or some dead tree or something?
It is the blaze of yellow and possibly, if I remember correctly, some green, that calls our
attention to that 'other' thing. It is meant to evoke something or other but damn if I can
say EXACTLY what.
So I've come up with the 'outside over there' scenario. Good enough for Maurice Sendak,
good enough for me.
Ok, Rosewood, this is how I see that window. And of course it does not mean anybody else has to see it that way, this is just what my intuition tells me.
Closet and window next to each other are like two pages of a book.
The closet is all that Ennis had in the past and still has in his heart: his joys and sorrows, his mistakes, his loved ones.
The door of the closet shuts, it looks like turning a page, getting onto the next one, the window, what he is left with, he future.
I see :
On each side of the window, shabby curtains
A big chunk of straight, empty road
Behind it is an endless dull greyish-green plain
Far away, on the horizon, a thin stripe of cold yellow
Just above it, the blue sky
Immediately after this scene, the two songs that talk about roads and loneliness and death
My take is:
the curtains:
poverty, but above all the temptation to close those curtains not to have to face a bleak future, but he won't close them because he has now learned to face up to reality
the road:
he is now alone on the road of life, and it is a dull road with nothing to offer, the only good thing about it is that it will eventually lead him to death - get along, little doggies, only can the maker make a happy man of me
it is also a constant reminder that Jack lived and died alone on the road - as emphasized also by 'He was a friend of mine' (He died on the road, just kept moving, never reached what he couldn't sought)
The plain
This is in stark contrast with the majestic mountains on the postcard - this is dull, flat and endless - like Ennis's future
it is also a reminder of the grieving plain, the welling prairie, where Jack is going to be buried while he wanted to be in the mountains
This sorrowful plain has nothing to offer, just boring food (is it wheat?) to keep going from day to day but no food for the soul - isn't life sometimes described as a 'valley of tears'? This is what this plain makes me think of
of course Jack's coat on the mountain was greenish, so there maybe a layer of mournful remembrance of happiness lost there as well
The yellow stripe just below the blue sky
Far on the horizon is the only glimmer of hope, in bright colours: death which will reunite Ennis with Jack in heaven - the sky is blue, Jack's colour. The yellow is cold, because happiness in death is not what most of us would call happiness. Still, this bright colour was chosen instead of a dead tree because that is the happy when they are finally together again (or at the very least when Ennis finds peace). Ennis is not religious, but his folks was Methodist and he is conventional, he probably believes in life after death. Or at least, he wants to after losing Jack. I know I would... :'(
At the risk of looking totally ignorant: who is Maurice Sendak?
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Wow, Nice Mouk. that would be fun to talk about in S&I-fun being a relative word, in this case!!
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you know there are moments, usually after a couple glasses of red wine (there goes that alcohol again ;)), when i can be philosophical and let be with "i swear." but most other times, i want it spelled out!
i want to hear him say exactly what he is swearing to! SPEAK, ENNIS, SPEAK!!!!
oh and all that stuff not so long ago about enjoying mystery in life and ambiguity. WELL, NOT IN THIS SITUATION!!! :) :) :) ::) >:D
LMAOOOOOOO
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Mouk, nice post, particularly the part about the closet and the window seeing as an open book. Thanks, dear!!!
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I don't think Linda is a potential date. She's a bit like Don Wroe in that it allows us to see than for all his hangups, Ennis wasn't a complete loner.
Linda and the Cabin: Dawn Rose on Pretty Richard...Ennis is waking up.
Very nice. I never put them together like that.
As for "I swear". I don't know what he swears and it doesn't bother me. I can finish the sentence in any number of ways but in my heart I think he didn't have an end to his own sentence. It's like a bookend to the shirts when we first see them in the closet. As he takes them the process begins. I'm not saying it ends when he says I swear but he's moved along the track a bit. The emotions of the discovery have been absorbed and mulled over, and he's just got "Jack, I swear..." It's every damned thing that's in his heart, the love, the guilt, the pain and grief. Any more words would just ruin it. It doesn't need to be defined.
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Rosewood, the window: interesting take. For me it is his future life: a long, boring, lonely road in the bleak plain with some hope only the horizon just below the sky ie his only hope is in death. Some people see this window view as a happy landscape, some don't. Fascinating, how we all react differently.
Then why the blaze of yellow? Why not some grim gray road or some dead tree or something?
It is the blaze of yellow and possibly, if I remember correctly, some green, that calls our
attention to that 'other' thing. It is meant to evoke something or other but damn if I can
say EXACTLY what.
So I've come up with the 'outside over there' scenario. Good enough for Maurice Sendak,
good enough for me.
Ok, Rosewood, this is how I see that window. And of course it does not mean anybody else has to see it that way, this is just what my intuition tells me.
Closet and window next to each other are like two pages of a book.
The closet is all that Ennis had in the past and still has in his heart: his joys and sorrows, his mistakes, his loved ones.
The door of the closet shuts, it looks like turning a page, getting onto the next one, the window, what he is left with, he future.
I see :
On each side of the window, shabby curtains
A big chunk of straight, empty road
Behind it is an endless dull greyish-green plain
Far away, on the horizon, a thin stripe of cold yellow
Just above it, the blue sky
Immediately after this scene, the two songs that talk about roads and loneliness and death
My take is:
the curtains:
poverty, but above all the temptation to close those curtains not to have to face a bleak future, but he won't close them because he has now learned to face up to reality
the road:
he is now alone on the road of life, and it is a dull road with nothing to offer, the only good thing about it is that it will eventually lead him to death - get along, little doggies, only can the maker make a happy man of me
it is also a constant reminder that Jack lived and died alone on the road - as emphasized also by 'He was a friend of mine' (He died on the road, just kept moving, never reached what he couldn't sought)
The plain
This is in stark contrast with the majestic mountains on the postcard - this is dull, flat and endless - like Ennis's future
it is also a reminder of the grieving plain, the welling prairie, where Jack is going to be buried while he wanted to be in the mountains
This sorrowful plain has nothing to offer, just boring food (is it wheat?) to keep going from day to day but no food for the soul - isn't life sometimes described as a 'valley of tears'? This is what this plain makes me think of
of course Jack's coat on the mountain was greenish, so there maybe a layer of mournful remembrance of happiness lost there as well
The yellow stripe just below the blue sky
Far on the horizon is the only glimmer of hope, in bright colours: death which will reunite Ennis with Jack in heaven - the sky is blue, Jack's colour. The yellow is cold, because happiness in death is not what most of us would call happiness. Still, this bright colour was chosen instead of a dead tree because that is the happy when they are finally together again (or at the very least when Ennis finds peace). Ennis is not religious, but his folks was Methodist and he is conventional, he probably believes in life after death. Or at least, he wants to after losing Jack. I know I would... :'(
I like parts of this very much, and I wanted to add that to my earlier thought that in contrast to the brilliant light of the window is that closed, suffucating grey space of the trailer, a reminder that they had to contain their love and keep it from the outside world. Outside, I like the thought of the road as the long, bleak road of life he has yet to take without Jack, or perhaps (for me) the road back to Jack and BBM. In the film, all of the color is on BBM, everything else is kind of drab. It's interesting that you get a sense of so many things in just that one shot: windows, roads, a sense of space, a closet door, it's all so evocative. In the end, I can't see anything for Ennis but a waiting to perhaps one day be back with Jack, and an end to his sorrow.
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Re. the postcard rack. He stepped into the gift shop and busied himself. He is making the effort. He is deliberately doing this thing, spending money on Jack at last. And he's doing it openly, as one of you said, kind of drawing attention to himself. He is, in his own way, coming out, at least as regards his love of Jack. He knows Linda and she knows him so there is a danger involved. He is not in some anonymous shop where no-one knows him, where he could buy his postcard and get out. He is in Signal, making a purchase in a situation where she might say later, "I saw Ennis buying a postcard of Brokeback Mountain. I wonder what that 's all about."
I don't think Linda is a potential date. She's a bit like Don Wroe in that it allows us to see than for all his hangups, Ennis wasn't a complete loner.
IMO that would be totally in character - coming out in such a quiet way.
When I read the story, I just assumed Linda Higgins knew Ennis because he had been living in Riverton and working around Signal - the latter being a very small community - for close to 20 years at that point. I live on the outskirts of a small town, and people, especially, in retail stories, just get to know you by name after awhile.
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Ok, Rosewood, this is how I see that window. And of course it does not mean anybody else has to see it that way, this is just what my intuition tells me.
Closet and window next to each other are like two pages of a book.
The closet is all that Ennis had in the past and still has in his heart: his joys and sorrows, his mistakes, his loved ones.
The door of the closet shuts, it looks like turning a page, getting onto the next one, the window, what he is left with, he future.
I see :
On each side of the window, shabby curtains
A big chunk of straight, empty road
Behind it is an endless dull greyish-green plain
Far away, on the horizon, a thin stripe of cold yellow
Just above it, the blue sky
Immediately after this scene, the two songs that talk about roads and loneliness and death
My take is:
the curtains:
poverty, but above all the temptation to close those curtains not to have to face a bleak future, but he won't close them because he has now learned to face up to reality
the road:
he is now alone on the road of life, and it is a dull road with nothing to offer, the only good thing about it is that it will eventually lead him to death - get along, little doggies, only can the maker make a happy man of me
it is also a constant reminder that Jack lived and died alone on the road - as emphasized also by 'He was a friend of mine' (He died on the road, just kept moving, never reached what he couldn't sought)
The plain
This is in stark contrast with the majestic mountains on the postcard - this is dull, flat and endless - like Ennis's future
it is also a reminder of the grieving plain, the welling prairie, where Jack is going to be buried while he wanted to be in the mountains
This sorrowful plain has nothing to offer, just boring food (is it wheat?) to keep going from day to day but no food for the soul - isn't life sometimes described as a 'valley of tears'? This is what this plain makes me think of
of course Jack's coat on the mountain was greenish, so there maybe a layer of mournful remembrance of happiness lost there as well
The yellow stripe just below the blue sky
Far on the horizon is the only glimmer of hope, in bright colours: death which will reunite Ennis with Jack in heaven - the sky is blue, Jack's colour. The yellow is cold, because happiness in death is not what most of us would call happiness. Still, this bright colour was chosen instead of a dead tree because that is the happy when they are finally together again (or at the very least when Ennis finds peace). Ennis is not religious, but his folks was Methodist and he is conventional, he probably believes in life after death. Or at least, he wants to after losing Jack. I know I would... :'(
At the risk of looking totally ignorant: who is Maurice Sendak?
Wow. I admit I hadn't given the window an iota of this much thought, Mouk. ;)
I'm also talking from memory. Don't want to see that scene again for awhile.
At any rate, I'm not going to argue with your interpretation. It makes sense.
Here and there I might quibble, but that's about it.
Except that certain shades of yellow are NEVER cold. Certainly the yellow we see
in the window is a bright and almost intimidatingly cheefrul shade. A 'look at me' shade.
Wheat. If it is wheat. Wheat makes bread, the staff of life.
Yeah, there's a road, but we already know that Ennis lives near a road because his
daughter drives up to the trailer and the road looks like it continues on by maybe even
curling around the back of the trailer so we can see it in the back window.
I like your comment that the closet and window are like the pages of a book. Very good.
Speaking of books: Maurice Sendak is a world famous (though clearly not as famous as I
thought since you've never heard of him ;) ) children's book illustrator and writer, ballet
and opera set designer and art director. He wrote, among others, the prize winning children's
books: OUTSIDE OVER THERE and WHERE THE WILD THINGS ARE and IN THE NIGHT KITCHEN
and other very idiosyncratic works. He is a national treasure. If you're not familiar with his work,
go take a look online. :)
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Thank you for Sendak *blushing at own ignorance* - Will look him up - I obviously had a deprived childhood!
Here is a link showing the window view: http://www.stripedwall.com/cpg/albums/movies/brokeback/part6/thumb_brokebackmtn_3938.jpg
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Something that yellow could be rapeseed.
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Yep, I think it is, it has this cold (sorry Rosewood) ;), pale quality about it
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Something that yellow could be rapeseed.
Or mustard? Dunno if they grow that in WY.
Oops, I just found out they are the same thing. It is grown in Wyoming (and Alberta), and everywhere else.
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This pic below was posted by Arethusa33 in PlanetHeath thread...it is a close-up of Ennis in his wedding....after looking it for a few seconds i realised that the suit has the same colours with Jack's jacket of BBM days.... Not to mention that carnation which is pinned on the lapel-don't know about the rest of the world but here in Greece carnations are the flowers which are used in funerals.
(https://ultimatebrokebackforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm1.static.flickr.com%2F212%2F466217167_11490a8dff.jpg&hash=3be5b02af763566bc3c78a97b0ec84516ce1def8)
Ok i told what crossed my mind when i saw that pic....you, people go on now with more interesting things...
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OMG gres you're right about the colours of the suit, I had never noticed. As if he was marrying Jack in his heart and Alma on paper. I always hated this scene. He has this little frown of the good boy doing what he has to do but he does not look happy...
This is really the moment that marks the end of the relationship with Jack as it was, in its pure and innocent form. Up to this day, anything was still possible. From the moment he says 'I do', whatever happens there will be people suffering because of their love, including themselves.
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OMG gres you're right about the colours of the suit, I had never noticed. As if he was marrying Jack in his heart and Alma on paper. I always hated this scene. He has this little frown of the good boy doing what he has to do but he does not look happy...
This is really the moment that marks the end of the relationship with Jack as it was, in its pure and innocent form. Up to this day, anything was still possible. From the moment he says 'I do', whatever happens there will be people suffering because of their love, including themselves.
It is the end and also the beginning.
The start of the constant lie.
The ill-fated wedding takes place just about three or so months after BBM.
Let's not forget that Ennis is STILL trying to figure out, in his heart, why he collapsed
on the side of the road.
Actually, it wouldn't surprise me, if he didn't feel some sort of relief on his wedding day,
since we know that he goes into hiding inside that marriage until the dam breaks with
the arrival of the post card four years later. It wouldn't surprise me if Ennis didn't expect
that with the saying of the marriage vows, the mystery of his feelings for Jack would be
resolved and he [Ennis] would be free.
Foolish boy.
Lots of opposing emotions in that supposedly 'happy' wedding scene.
Ennis is totally conflicted, confused and possibly, miserable.
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The transition from the alley scene where Ennis pukes to the wedding scene is a very revealing. The priest's voice is heard first in the alley for a second or so before the cut to the wedding scene. As if it were the voice of God judging his actions and telling him he sinned....
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Yes, I like this sort of transition, if done well.
Sometimes though, if clumsily done, I almost expect the actors to look
up, confused and maybe wondering aloud who the heck is talking... ;D
Mel Brooks used to do something along these lines to very funny effect.
Although if I remember correctly, he mostly used the soundtrack, allowing
the actors to react to it.
Sort of the same thing. More or less.
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Yes, I like this sort of transition, if done well.
Sometimes though, if clumsily done, I almost expect the actors to look
up, confused and maybe wondering aloud who the heck is talking... ;D
Mel Brooks used to do something along these lines to very funny effect.
Although if I remember correctly, he mostly used the soundtrack, allowing
the actors to react to it.
Sort of the same thing. More or less.
Oh yes I remember Mel Brooks using it. He also used music in the same way, with actors looking for the source the music came from.
Of course Ang did this one beautifuly.
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Here's something else that didn't happen by accident. The transition from alley to church goes like this:
" and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us.
[cut to church]
And lead us not unto temptation, but deliver us from evil. For thine is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever and ever. Amen."
Could the references to "temptation" and "evil" have just the tiniest bit to do with what J&E had been doing after they'd been on the mountain for a month? And did Ennis want to be delivered from that? A big chunk of him did.
I'll check out Ennis's suit tonight.
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Here's something else that didn't happen by accident. The transition from alley to church goes like this:
" and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us.
[cut to church]
And lead us not unto temptation, but deliver us from evil. For thine is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever and ever. Amen."
Could the references to "temptation" and "evil" have just the tiniest bit to do with what J&E had been doing after they'd been on the mountain for a month? And did Ennis want to be delivered from that? A big chunk of him did.
I'll check out Ennis's suit tonight.
Marc, I think that is exactly the point-he feels guilty. He does not know for another 10 months or so how he really feels, because he has no standard-until AJ comes along. I've often said the chemistry between new parents and that first baby has the obsessive focus and emotional intimacy of a love affair-no wonder Ennis associates it with Jack.
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Could the references to "temptation" and "evil" have just the tiniest bit to do with what J&E had been doing after they'd been on the mountain for a month? And did Ennis want to be delivered from that? A big chunk of him did.
Yes, definitely, I think. I think he may believe that marriage will save him at that point.
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And he can save him from s'thing only if that s'thing is obvious enough to him to make him fear of it, to be scared by the presence of the feeling he has and doesn't want to know he has it.
(runs from thread)
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And he can save him from s'thing only if that s'thing is obvious enough to him to make him fear of it, to be scared by the presence of the feeling he has and doesn't want to know he has it.
(runs from thread)
I sometimes wonder if we don't underestimate E's understanding of his situation here. Firstly, I believe he has no doubt or ignorance of the physical aspect of his relationship with Jack. How could he after such a short but oh so sweet n heady summer? The double whammy of the situation is that it takes him a year to realise he shouldn't a let you out a my sight.. Coming to terms with his feelings as opposed to his urges are not to be separated but require separate consideration.
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I agree, Andy. I think it takes him a year to realise that he loves Jack, but he's been aware of the meaning of what they were doing since the punch.
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And he can save him from s'thing only if that s'thing is obvious enough to him to make him fear of it, to be scared by the presence of the feeling he has and doesn't want to know he has it.
(runs from thread)
I sometimes wonder if we don't underestimate E's understanding of his situation here. Firstly, I believe he has no doubt or ignorance of the physical aspect of his relationship with Jack. How could he after such a short but oh so sweet n heady summer? The double whammy of the situation is that it takes him a year to realise he shouldn't a let you out a my sight.. Coming to terms with his feelings as opposed to his urges are not to be separated but require separate consideration.
How's retirement? PM if you get a chance-I have much professional gossip for you....
Fofol made an excellent point about Ennis being unable to discriminate between lust and love, basically, on the Ennis thread...I agree with that. He has not resources. It is a tribute to his own canny self, that he is able to connect his growing familial feelings with Jack, a year later...ok I'm doing a photocap, that's it. It'll be the definitive visual represntation of 'i shouldna let you outta my sights!'-thanks, Andy. Always nice to have my 'theories' supported by manly experience..
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And he can save him from s'thing only if that s'thing is obvious enough to him to make him fear of it, to be scared by the presence of the feeling he has and doesn't want to know he has it.
(runs from thread)
I agree! He just hasn't named that feeling yet..does he ever? yeah, in I swear, maybe; Jack aside, Ennis swears-professes his love- despite Jack never asking him to.... ;)
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And he can save him from s'thing only if that s'thing is obvious enough to him to make him fear of it, to be scared by the presence of the feeling he has and doesn't want to know he has it.
(runs from thread)
I sometimes wonder if we don't underestimate E's understanding of his situation here. Firstly, I believe he has no doubt or ignorance of the physical aspect of his relationship with Jack. How could he after such a short but oh so sweet n heady summer? The double whammy of the situation is that it takes him a year to realise he shouldn't a let you out a my sight.. Coming to terms with his feelings as opposed to his urges are not to be separated but require separate consideration.
Ennis wrang it out a hundred of times thinking about Jack....Does anyone believe that each time Ennis went to the bathroom to find sexual relief using his own hand and thinking about Jack when his wife was lying in their bed that Ennis hadn't reached a single bit of awareness about his feelings for Jack? And i guess that many of them wringing-outs happened during Alma's pregnancy where Ennis couldn't/ wouldn't use her to simulate sex with Jack, IMO, at least Alma wouldn't let him do it during her pregnancy, i think. To me what Ennis realises after a year is that what he knew he was feeling for Jack was of the kind that should have led him to not let Jack go but in any case he knew that what he felt for Jack was unique. Ennis knows how he feels but he doesn't know or better doesn't want to know that his feelings are of the ones that lead two people into living together. His marriage with Alma helped him not to discover his feelings for Jack themselves but to show him what those feelings he has for Jack mean and what people do when they have those feelings for the other person. I know the difference is slight but this is what i believe it is going on.
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Ennis was an idiot, but he wasn't STUPID!!!!
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Right BB_1!!
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No, he is not stupid; in fact he has one of those agile minds that can warp the truth into whatever form he needs to bear it. He is actually pretty skilled in that way-He does not have any intellectual problems, that I can see.
His are pretty much emotional. It is his heart that is a little stupid.....it got shell-shocked at age 9 and is still in a stupor from it....
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I am new so this has probably been discussed. I want to refer to the truck scene where they are parting to leave Brokeback M. This is an agonizingly beautiful scene. Both Jacks and Ennis pain is almost tangible. They both look each other up and down especially Ennis looking at Jack as if they are making mental imprints of the one they love so much. Ennis seems to be looking with love and lust wanting so badly to put his hands on the body he is so obviously trying to memorize.
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In response to Ennis knowing how he felt. IMO Enniis knew how he felt about Jack the minute Jack drove off. Ennis cries and punches the wall out of frustration but I think it is the reality that the one person he truly loves just drove out of his life. He watched him drive in that first day not knowing how painful it woulld eventually be to see that truck leaving with the love of his life in it. Ennis also is mad at himself for punching Jack. I think this becomes evident at the motel when Ennis says "I didn't think I'd hear from you again. I figured you were sore about that punch" I think Ennis as he crounched down by that wall thinks if he ever had a chance to see Jack again, he probably ruined it with that punch. Any thoughts out there?? :)
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In response to Ennis knowing how he felt. IMO Enniis knew how he felt about Jack the minute Jack drove off. Ennis cries and punches the wall out of frustration but I think it is the reality that the one person he truly loves just drove out of his life. He watched him drive in that first day not knowing how painful it woulld eventually be to see that truck leaving with the love of his life in it. Ennis also is mad at himself for punching Jack. I think this becomes evident at the motel when Ennis says "I didn't think I'd hear from you again. I figured you were sore about that punch" I think Ennis as he crounched down by that wall thinks if he ever had a chance to see Jack again, he probably ruined it with that punch. Any thoughts out there?? :)
Hi Sunshine, it's nice to have you here,
I agree. I would add that Ennis is conflicted to the core. He now realizes that he fell in love with a man and that his efforts to distance himself from this situation are useless. He's stuck in something he can't control, he's terrified by his feelings for Jack, feelings he knows can have them both killed.
He's overcome by regret and sadness in realizing he may never see Jack again. So it's not only the punch, it's about his own incapacity of accepting what he just lived on Brokeback.
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Nicely put, john john. I also think he is still trying to use anger to buck up; to get himself back to his 'manhood' before BBM. He has one too many revelations up there-in the book, he thinks he is getting sick from bad food....very typical of someone in denial . You think you have a tummy ache-everyone who knows you, knows you are in love....
That is why he is so drawn to keep going up into the mountains; he wants to kind of go back to before those revelations, the ones he keeps buried inside; the fear that he deeply loves another man.
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John John, I think you hit the nail on the head! :)
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Sunshine has a very good point about what the boys are doing w/ their eyes. And contrast that w/ what they're saying, which is almost irrelevant. What they're not saying is much more important.
Earlier I suggested that the reason the camera goes back and forth between them twice (I think that's the right count) after they're done talking is Ennis is waiting for Jack to offer a ride and Jack is waiting for Ennis to ask for one. But, as Sunshine suggests, they could be drinking in each other's un-fucking-believable sex appeal, and having a zillion swirling thoughts. Like, if this relationship is really over, can we fuck just one more time? Or more high-minded, like, it can't end like this, say something Ennis, anything, please say something, grab my hand and I won't let go.
It's almost a fill-in-the-blank situation, like "Jack, I swear ... "
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Marc. Yes! Yes! a thousand times Yes! Ennis has to force himself to walk away and I totally agree that each was waiting for the other one to scream, whisper, shout DON'T GO!!!! They were shouting this silently. Ennis looks like he is about to devour Jack and the last thing he wants to do is turn and walk away. :)
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Ennis is waiting for 2 words from Jack Twist: Don't go.
Jack is waiting for 2 words from Ennis: Please stay.
cross purposes, the characters ignorance and pride sabatogueing <sp??> their most primal needs.
the classic ingredients of tragedy
neither will say what he really wants to say.
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And by the way, in a film filled with moments she loved and scenes which brought her vision to life, THAT, the entire departure, is the scene which most tears at the author of BBM's own heart.
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And by the way, in a film filled with moments she loved and scenes which brought her vision to life, THAT, the entire departure, is the scene which most tears at the author of BBM's own heart.
and who really likes good-byes, anyway? I agree, Jack...J&E are not the most communicative tools in the shed-AP knows from whence she speaks. I can almost hear her yelling at her characters, 'just SAY IT'!
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Of course, the other scene like that is their last one around the campfire. After Jack professes his love for Ennis, and Ennis responds with a fat lot of nothing, you just want to throttle him.
It occurs to me that I should look at Ennis's face again for signs that he's trying to say something but can't find the words. But I have no memory of getting that impression.
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Marc, which scene are you referring to? Is it the forest scene after the motel? If it is that scene I just wanted to cry for Jack because when hi is asking Ennis to live with him his jaw/cheek twitches like twice. You could tell Jack was nervous and really put himself out there just to get rejected.
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No, I was referring to their last trip to the mountain.
Re the reunion trip and Jack's "You know it could be like this ..." speech, I posted something a long time ago probably on this thread. Jack had rehearsed that speech all the way from Texas in the truck. It was the most important thing he'd ever said in his life to that point, and it goes down in flames. Later, he tops it with "Tell you what ... " and that one, if not acted on, at least isn't rejected. Jack never quit trying.
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Oh yes, now I remember. Jack tells Ennis that sometimes he misses him so much he can hardly stand it and then Ennis says nothing. That made me mad at Ennis! Is that the correct scene?
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Yes sunshine that is the scene. That scene I think pisses anyone and everyone who has seen this movie off. Screaming at my screne....."come on Ennis, just say it!!!" "Say something....SAY IT!!!!" But nothing...nothing but crickets and slight sound of Jacks heart breaking some more.
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Yes sunshine that is the scene. That scene I think pisses anyone and everyone who has seen this movie off. Screaming at my screne....."come on Ennis, just say it!!!" "Say something....SAY IT!!!!" But nothing...nothing but crickets and slight sound of Jacks heart breaking some more.
The funny thing is that we can all hear the sound of Jack's heart breaking.
All of us, that is, except Ennis.
Yeah, I know, I know, they're fictional characters.
But still....
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Yes sunshine that is the scene. That scene I think pisses anyone and everyone who has seen this movie off. Screaming at my screne....."come on Ennis, just say it!!!" "Say something....SAY IT!!!!" But nothing...nothing but crickets and slight sound of Jacks heart breaking some more.
The funny thing is that we can all hear the sound of Jack's heart breaking.
All of us, that is, except Ennis.
Yeah, I know, I know, they're fictional characters.
But still....
If it makes anyone feel better..I think that silence on Ennis's part is more about him wondering, 'oh, shit, how am I going to tell him about August NOW?' I don't think he is contemplating how hung up he is about what Jack just told him; I think it is possible Jack occasionally said such things, and Ennis responds physically, or we just have never heard the response. One thing of interest is all that wonderful affirming stuff he says to Jack in the motel, and Jack barely blinks. I think maybe the lovemaking was so powerful, the verbage simply did not hit as hard; maybe Jack's line about missing Ennis is a comment that Ennis would come to expect, and is more about him taking Jack for granted. Perhaps by that point, Ennis comes to really believe that the sex is all he needs to 'say. I don't think of it in terms of withholding out of fear-he tells us is the end, that in his POV, Jack never asked him to swear anything. Then he says Jack was not the swearing kind-maybe he didn't get what Jack meant by his comment at the last night; maybe he did not assign the value of once in a lifetime love. I think if he had, his reaction would've been stronger. To that extent, he is still in denial that this thing is what he should have iwth a life partner-not just a special buddy.
I think the power of 'I swear' is that it was unasked for and unexpected-it is unbidden.
The film makes Jack's statement about Ennis being kind of stunned; I think there is a bit of an admonishement in the book-the horses nickered outside the fire. But mostly, I think Ennis in the book is being dum-diddly-dum-dum. He never 'gets' it until Jack dies.
Oh, so you think that's why he didn't get Jack's heart was breaking...oh.. :D :P ;)
(nothing like the long way around, CSI...)
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I almost think we can't really blame Ennis for his faulty 'hearing'.
Here's why:
Somehow Ennis has grown up NOT realizing that hearts break.
It isn't something that he worries about or thinks about or even perceives.
He's not emotionless and heartless, he just doesn't CONSIDER the
importance of it OR perhaps it's that he doesn't consider the importance
of it in his OWN life.
In the short story he gets a glimpse of this emotion when he rides back
to the sheep feeling as if 'he could paw the white out of the moon.'
But if you asked him then WHY he should feel that way, he would
probably look at you as if you were crazy.
Jack, on the other hand, is ALL heart and emotion.
THAT, paradoxically, is what attracts Ennis to him though Ennis never
really KNOWS this or, as I said, considers it - until, perhaps, the end.
This is why, I believe, the shirts are not only a wonderous revelation,
but a shock to his very core.
It isn't that he doesn't really value love, because we KNOW that Jack
means EVERYTHING to him for twenty years and more. It's just that
he doesn't REALIZE how the heart operates in that equation.
I'm convinced of it.
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totally agree, esp the part about pawing the white out-this is a statement to me of a strong desire for something, a sense of new personal power to do something-he wants Jack.
But he never associates it with Jack, notice that? I mentioned this in another thread: He never thinks, Jack makes me want to paw the white out of the moon; he just knows that he had never had never had such a good time. I thinkyou are right-this emotion is new to him, this erotic love with the invisible target:
Paw-(handle)-moon (Jack's delicious nummy butt). :D :P ;D
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Agree withRosewood and CSI ...nothing to add indeed.. :)
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I just like reading all the sexy stuff you guys/gals write! I don/'t even care if it's write or wrong. ;D :P
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That was supposed to be right :-[ :-[
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I have a question. When Ennis tells Jack that "this is a one shot thing we got going on" does he mean the shot he already gave Jack is all he is getting or he is only going to inject him while they remain on BBM?
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...and something else and then I promise I'm through for the night.
I actually do have a life that must be dealt with occasionally. ;D
And perhaps this belongs on the Reunion Thread, but we're onto something
here, so here it will be.
Ennis, though he tells Jack almost right off the bat that he loves his girls 'to pieces'
(missing from the film but implied) says it in the same vein as one might say, gosh
I love these puppies to pieces. It is, in my view, a glimpse of his immaturity and his
lack of judgement, his inability to relate to the true nature of the relationships in
his life. I mean, Alma sneers for a reason. Yes, she's seen the kiss on the landing,
but honestly, it's almost as if she discounts Ennis's exclamation. Yeah, sure,
he loves 'em to pieces. But she seems to dismiss this. Why?
You would almost think that Ennis is eager for Jack to know immediately that his
girls mean the world to him so he shouldn't get any ideas about luring him [Ennis]
away. Yeah, I would think that if I thought that Ennis had a Machiavellian bone in
his body.
No, I'm not negating the fact that a father may love his babies to pieces,
in fact, in a certain sort of person this utterance might be viewed as charming.
In Ennis, it just comes off as childish and somewhat precipitous -
in almost the same vein as Jack saying, in the film, "He smiles a lot."
But having said that, I do allow that Ennis loves his daughters as much as
a person like him CAN love children that become, for lack of better words,
useful impediments later on - especially in the short story.
This brings me back to my original theory about Ennis's not knowing or caring
much about the heart's importance.
Given his upbringing - how could he?
It all ties in.
At least in my view.
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...and something else and then I promise I'm through for the night.
I actually do have a life that must be dealt with occasionally. ;D
And perhaps this belongs on the Reunion Thread, but we're onto something
here, so here it will be.
Ennis, though he tells Jack almost right off the bat that he loves his girls 'to pieces'
(missing from the film but implied) says it in the same vein as one might say, gosh
I love these puppies to pieces. It is, in my view, a glimpse of his immaturity and his
lack of judgement, his inability to relate to the true nature of the relationships in
his life. I mean, Alma sneers for a reason. Yes, she's seen the kiss on the landing,
but honestly, it's almost as if she discounts Ennis's exclamation. Yeah, sure,
he loves 'em to pieces. But she seems to dismiss this. Why?
You would almost think that Ennis is eager for Jack to know immediately that his
girls mean the world to him so he shouldn't get any ideas about luring him [Ennis]
away. Yeah, I would think that if I thought that Ennis had a Machiavellian bone in
his body.
No, I'm not negating the fact that a father may love his babies to pieces,
in fact, in a certain sort of person this utterance might be viewed as charming.
In Ennis, it just comes off as childish and somewhat precipitous -
in almost the same vein as Jack saying, in the film, "He smiles a lot."
But having said that, I do allow that Ennis loves his daughters as much as
a person like him CAN love children that become, for lack of better words,
useful impediments later on - especially in the short story.
This brings me back to my original thesis about Ennis's not knowing or caring
much about the heart's importance.
Given his upbringing - how could he?
It all ties in.
At least in my view.
I never thought of her mouth twitching as a sneer...I thought it was her mind/heart processing this man in front of her...He is her husband one minute; and is showing more passion for a man the next. And in the midst of it, he claims to love his girls to pieces-something I doubt he has ever admitted to anyone. I don't think she's ever seen this Ennis...and this is the one she probably always wanted.
It may be, now that I think of it, AP's way of showing us Ennis is already fighting off his feelings, by declaring his love for the girls.
To Alma, this is incomprehensible. Way back when, some poster suggested she was reacting as if to a spaceship landing in the parking lot. Her sense of reality has been shaken to the core; her mouth twitches.
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I have a question. When Ennis tells Jack that "this is a one shot thing we got going on" does he mean the shot he already gave Jack is all he is getting or he is only going to inject him while they remain on BBM?
He really means it's a 101 shot thing-he forgot the other two digits. >:D ;) ;D
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Rosewood, now i always felt that Alma is in sock when she hears that Jack is also married to a beautifull woman down in Texas with an 8months old boy and he just stepped in her door kissing the hell out of her husband. I think she can't wrap her mind around the fact that they are both men, married with children and she just withnessed them kissing passionately right there outside her home...And your explanation about Ennis might have a reasoning.. however i don't know if it had ever crossed Ennis' mind that Jack would go for a plan of a life together...for him to think s'thing like and his response to imply what you say means that he, himself too, had entertained this idea in his mind for quite some time but i don't think that he actually had thought that Jack would ask s'thing more than a few meetings a year from him so as for him to think s'think like that and make him act in that way you say above during the introductions in the reunion scene.
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Probably Ennis is so full of angst (translation friggin horny) >:D that he is just trying to fill the void with whatever he can think of. Not necessarily saying anything important just saying something. Jack and Ennis keep looking at each other and the other's lips. Jack keeps working, licking, smacking his lips while staring at Ennis and his lips. Ennis is out of his head with desire. They keep looking at each other and even though they don't realize Alma saw them they are probably experiencing that feeling that it is written all over their faces Plus they just can't t wait to bang each other. I don't think Ennis is seriously thinking past what's in
Jacks pants and how long before he gets to it. :o
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For sure, Ennis is just speaking to say something. The line in the story is "What could he say>" and then he introduces Jack.
I saw Alma's mouth twitch as pain - he can't say he loves her as well and suddenly she understands why.
As for Ennis not hearing Jack's heart breaking, Ennis has learnt the hard way that attachment ot people leads to pain in the future so he shuts down his own emotional responses as a means of self-protection. One manifestation of this is the attitude "Don't love me. If you love me you get close and if you get close you have the power to hurt"
He never meant to hurt Jack, he was just protecting himself, and unwittingly shutting out the one person who had the ability to help him overcome that feeling. A real Catch-22.
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Rosewood, now i always felt that Alma is in sock when she hears that Jack is also married to a beautifull woman down in Texas with an 8months old boy and he just stepped in her door kissing the hell out of her husband. I think she can't wrap her mind around the fact that they are both men, married with children and she just withnessed them kissing passionately right there outside her home...And your explanation about Ennis might have a reasoning.. however i don't know if it had ever crossed Ennis' mind that Jack would go for a plan of a life together...for him to think s'thing like and his response to imply what you say means that he, himself too, had entertained this idea in his mind for quite some time but i don't think that he actually had thought that Jack would ask s'thing more than a few meetings a year from him so as for him to think s'think like that and make him act in that way you say above during the introductions in the reunion scene.
CSI: I wouldn't fight to the death in disagreement with your take. What the hell.
My take is OF THE MOMENT. I find myself re-interpreting things in BBM according to my
mood. Makes everyone crazy, I know. ;D
Having said that, however, I will add that to me, the word 'twitch' has some instant connotations,
especially as used in this particular scene. Although I admit it is a barebones use. Alma COULD be
twitching her lips for any and sundry reasons. I took it as a sneer because of the way she's portrayed
in the short story - very unsympathetically. That's my only excuse. But like I say, I'm not going
to fight to the death about it. ;)
Gres: I agree that Ennis hasn't been plotting or thinking about a future with Jack. That's why
I said that I WOULD only think it IF I didn't KNOW that Ennis hasn't got a Machiavellian bone in his
body. In other words, he's not someone who schemes and plots, especially ahead of time.
That's all I meant. Sorry for being so obtuse. Comes with the territory, I'm afraid.
Truth to tell, I've always found that short conversation in the doorway a bit nonsensical and
perhaps that's EXACTLY how AP meant it. I mean, we KNOW all these two guys want to do is
jump into the nearest bed, so anything they say at such a highly charged moment is necessarily,
suspect.
Poor Alma, cast aside by a whirlwind, is maybe, allowed a sneer. Maybe not.
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You all are talking about the SS when you say Enis mentioned loving the kids? That part isn't in the movie. I have to get this SS soon before I go nuts! :)
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OK here goes. As some of you know I'm French Canadian and sororities are not in our culture.
I'm trying to understand Lashawn and Lureen's conversation in the dance hall scene.
Lashawn: "Pledged Tri Delt at SMU and I sure never thought I'd end up in a pokey litle place like Childress...."
Lureen: "Oh, you was Tri Delt? I was Kappa Phi myself."
Lashawn: "Well though we ain't quite sorority sisters, we may have to dance with ourselves..."
What is this? All I get is greek letters beeing tossed around ;D
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I'm from Greece but trust me it is not the greek letters that makes all this sound greek to you.... ;D
I don't really get it, too and so an explanation from s'one who is familiar would be real helpfull.
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Cher John John,
Fraternities and sororities are living arrangements at many colleges, like dorms but much smaller, and they can be picky about who their members are.
LaShawn was "tri-delt," meaning her sorority was Delta Delta Delta.
Lureen was "kappa phi" herself, which meant hers was a two-letter sorority, Kappa Phi.
No doubt you remember the song from the 30s, "The Sweetheart of Sigma Xi."
A bientot,
Marc
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And there's the joke fraternity, I Felta Thigh.
My father was Phi Delta Theta at Amherst, graduating in 1950.
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^^^
And kappa Phi may be a little more prestigious than Delta Delta Delta.
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While we're on that scene, let me pass along something I noticed a while ago, but posted on General Discussion instead of here:
Lureen says, "It's funny, isn't it? Husbands don't never seem to want to dance with their wives. Why do you think that is, Jack?"
An unimportant piece of dialog? Not hardly. By the end of the evening we know the answer is, "They'd rather dance with each other." Little did Lureen suspect she was on the verge of outing two of her dinner companions.
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Cher John John,
Fraternities and sororities are living arrangements at many colleges, like dorms but much smaller, and they can be picky about who their members are.
LaShawn was "tri-delt," meaning her sorority was Delta Delta Delta.
Lureen was "kappa phi" herself, which meant hers was a two-letter sorority, Kappa Phi.
No doubt you remember the song from the 30s, "The Sweetheart of Sigma Chi."
A bientot,
Marc
Merci Marc,
But I still don't get it.
First, are these names common to all colleges?
The amount of letters make the sororities more prestigious?
Who decides which is more prestigious?
Is there a limited amount of sororities in colleges?
Who picks the name?
Why would someone want to belong this one or that one?
Why not call them Marty's or Elvira's sorority for pete's sake?
So was Lureen being snobish? Because she had three 'Deltas' in her sorority's name?
Does money have anything to do with this?
I'm sorry but this doesn't make much sense to me.
Is it a class thing?
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You've exceeded my knowledge of these things. You might Google combinations of Greek letters and see what you get.
My understanding is each frat is a subsidiary of a nationwide organization that owns the letters.
I think it was "Revenge of the Nerds" where the local frat was going to be disbanded because there weren't enough pledges.
Frats were not trendy when I was at Berkeley, but w/ the housing crisis that followed, they became popular again.
Also, Google "hazing," the ritual pledges go through to prove they're worthy to join. I remember reading about one recently where two pledges had to walk naked from point A to point B, holding each other's dicks. But it must have been a straight frat. I wonder if there are gay ones now? Gamma Alpha .. Shit, there's no Y. How about Phi Alpha Gamma? Bingo!
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You've exceeded my knowledge of these things. You might Google combinations of Greek letters and see what you get.
My understanding is each frat is a subsidiary of a nationwide organization that owns the letters.
I think it was "Revenge of the Nerds" where the local frat was going to be disbanded because there weren't enough pledges.
Frats were not trendy when I was at Berkeley, but w/ the housing crisis that followed, they became popular again.
Also, Google "hazing," the ritual pledges go through to prove they're worthy to join. I remember reading about one recently where two pledges had to walk naked from point A to point B, holding each other's dicks. But it must have been a straight frat. I wonder if there are gay ones now? Gamma Alpha .. Shit, there's no Y. How about Phi Alpha Gamma? Bingo!
Thanks Marc I'll look it up.
So a pledge is a person now.... Jeeez!
Hazing I know about, I've been through that...
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john john,
Sororities and fraternities have been with the U.S. college scene for more than 100 years. They are often collectively called the "Greeks" for their use of two or three Greek letters in the names of their organizations. While some began as ways of providing students with similar interests or backgrounds as a means of socializing "off campus," today the majority of them are socially based. One "rushes" a fraternity or sorority during the first or second year in college. One is invited by the current membership to join, you cannnot simply sign up. There are generally initiation rites, commonly referred to as "hazing," now discopuraged. The members of a fraternity generally live in a "house" near campus and share meals and social events. They are considered to be members or "chapters" of a national organization. Their presence varies from campus to campus. The two universities I am very familiar with had very different "Greek" cultures. Cornell had over 50 fraternities/sororities while the University of Chicago had a handful.
Pecking order among the groups is generally established in the same way as cliques are rated in high school, by the clothes one wears, percentage of jocks, nerds, etc. in the house. These orders may vary from campus to campus.
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http://daily.stanford.edu/article/2004/1/12/sevenPleadNoContestInTrideltIncident
The shame, the shame..... Kappa Phi girls would NEVER do such things....
["Larkin" is a dormitory on the Stanford campus]
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While we're on that scene, let me pass along something I noticed a while ago, but posted on General Discussion instead of here:
Lureen says, "It's funny, isn't it? Husbands don't never seem to want to dance with their wives. Why do you think that is, Jack?"
An unimportant piece of dialog? Not hardly. By the end of the evening we know the answer is, "They'd rather dance with each other." Little did Lureen suspect she was on the verge of outing two of her dinner companions.
I don't know much about fraternities or sororities either except what I've read about or seen
on films or tv. I like Groucho Marx's take: Any club that would accept me as a member I wouldn't
want to be a member of. ;D Or words to that effect.
Dunno. Never went to college long enough to join ANYTHING. Truth to tell, sounds a tiresome
enterprise to me.
At any rate, keeping that in mind, I've always taken the wives conversation re: peculiarities of
sorority affiliation in the 'catty' way it is intended in the film. It is obvious that Lureen is not
overly fond of the evening's company, much less the talkative LaShawn who seems to be
monopolizing the conversation in a kind of pathetic effort to please. Lureen obviously finds the
whole thing tiresome and her comment about the difference in sororities is meant to put LaShawn
in her place as we can see by the abashed look on LaShawn's face as she regroups and continues
to speak nonsense simply BECAUSE she CAN'T think of anything else to do.
Jack, as he always will and always has, is able to feel pity and comes to her rescue.
He asks her to dance. She, in turn, is delighted AND flustered. In that moment I like LaShawn
very much although I know I am in the minority.
Lureen's comment about husbands not wanting to dance with their wives is meant as a
half-hearted dig at Jack, but a dig at LaShawn as well. It might also be meant as something a
bit darker with special meaning for Jack, depending on how much Lureen knows about her
husband's sexual proclivities.
It is when she, Lureen, is left awkwardly alone at the table with a man who obviously has NO
interest in dancing with her EITHER, that my pity for her is, at last, elicited.
Lureen looks a bit shell-shocked and uncharacteristically wallflower-ish - for a pretty
woman that has to rankle. There's something about the cruelty Ang Lee shows her in that
moment that rankles me as well.
This is, in many ways, a great scene that tells us much about Jack and his wife
AND the situation developing in Texas simply by showing us the dynamics and allowing
us to read between the lines.
Has it struck you that when Jack asks LaShawn to dance, for a moment Randall is taken aback
as if HE'S the one who's been asked to dance? Look at the expression on his face. He WISHES
it were so. Funny.
And not in a ha-ha kind of way.
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Has it struck you that when Jack asks LaShawn to dance, for a moment Randall is taken aback
as if HE'S the one who's been asked to dance? Look at the expression on his face. He WISHES
it were so. Funny.
And not in a ha-ha kind of way.
It is so funny that you said this because when I first saw this scene I thought he was looking at Randall and had asked him to dance and then I was like no way! Randall reacts exactly the way you described!
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john john,
Sororities and fraternities have been with the U.S. college scene for more than 100 years. They are often collectively called the "Greeks" for their use of two or three Greek letters in the names of their organizations. While some began as ways of providing students with similar interests or backgrounds as a means of socializing "off campus," today the majority of them are socially based. One "rushes" a fraternity or sorority during the first or second year in college. One is invited by the current membership to join, you cannnot simply sign up. There are generally initiation rites, commonly referred to as "hazing," now discopuraged. The members of a fraternity generally live in a "house" near campus and share meals and social events. They are considered to be members or "chapters" of a national organization. Their presence varies from campus to campus. The two universities I am very familiar with had very different "Greek" cultures. Cornell had over 50 fraternities/sororities while the University of Chicago had a handful.
Pecking order among the groups is generally established in the same way as cliques are rated in high school, by the clothes one wears, percentage of jocks, nerds, etc. in the house. These orders may vary from campus to campus.
Thanks Sandy, now I get it.
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OK bare with me.
I've always been surprised that Jack would invite Lashawn to dance. I always felt it came out of the blue for no good reason.
When I last saw the movie it occurred to me that Jack looks distant, not listening (lost in is thoughts about Ennis or just bored by it all) to the conversation Lashawn and Lureen were having about dancing. That may be why both women were so surprised when jack came out of his daze and suddenly invites Lashawn to dance. After all the conversation was about men NOT dancing.
In other words, Jack didn't realize that asking her to dance made him unintentionally part of the conversation he wasn't participating in. Thus the women's surprise.
Am I making sense?
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I will have to watch it again but I thought it fit right. I think Jack is just a really nice guy and wanted to make Lashawn feel good about herself. As pointed out above, Lureen was being knd of snooty, snobby, pissy( my paraphrase) so Jack came to the rescue. He is just a sweetie! :)
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I saw this scene this way. Lureen is taking a public opportunity to have a dig at Jack. I tend to think that it's just about sex or lack of it, but as it's a similar scene to when Alma confronts Ennis (in a safe "public" setting) then maybe she does suspect more. She's also being snobby to poor LaShawn whom I really like although I'd probably strangle her if I ever met her.
Jack asks her to dance:
- to be nice
- to get away from a conversation he doesn't want to be in
- to spite Lureen
- to check out Randall from a distance (he's really not interested in dancing with her per se)
- to, as it were, cement his straight credentials by dancing with a woman
- to give him the opportunity to do that funny eye;ine thing with Randall that makes it look as though he's asking Randall to dance.
The last thing is so obvious and almost funny that it has to be deliberate and not just bad scene blocking.
What a great scene. And may I say that no man or woman in possession of breath could refuse Jack's invitation. He looks stunning, especially with the light shining in his eyes.
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I saw this scene this way. Lureen is taking a public opportunity to have a dig at Jack. I tend to think that it's just about sex or lack of it, but as it's a similar scene to when Alma confronts Ennis (in a safe "public" setting) then maybe she does suspect more. She's also being snobby to poor LaShawn whom I really like although I'd probably strangle her if I ever met her.
Jack asks her to dance:
- to be nice
- to get away from a conversation he doesn't want to be in
- to spite Lureen
- to check out Randall from a distance (he's really not interested in dancing with her per se)
- to, as it were, cement his straight credentials by dancing with a woman
- to give him the opportunity to do that funny eye;ine thing with Randall that makes it look as though he's asking Randall to dance.
The last thing is so obvious and almost funny that it has to be deliberate and not just bad scene blocking.
What a great scene. And may I say that no man or woman in possession of breath could refuse Jack's invitation. He looks stunning, especially with the light shining in his eyes.
Perhaps, also, to break the sexual tension..I see Randall as a wee bit of a cruiser....
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A wee bit? ;D ;D ;D Good grief! How dare he be so bold with our Jack? Although Jack is no doubt perfectly capable of picking up men.
They seem to have eyed each other off inside and I get the impresssion there was no doubt in either man's mind about the other one. It's a great sequence but I hate it because it's one less scene where Ennis and Jack aren't together.
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Oh yea ladies, I do believe they were on each others radar but I get the distinct feeling that Jack is a little uncomfortable with Randall's atention not because he is a man but for some other reason I haven't been able to pinpoint. I do think that Jack is used to being the pursuer so maybe it is that. Anyone notice the same thing?
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Oh yea ladies, I do believe they were on each others radar but I get the distinct feeling that Jack is a little uncomfortable with Randall's atention not because he is a man but for some other reason I haven't been able to pinpoint. I do think that Jack is used to being the pursuer so maybe it is that. Anyone notice the same thing?
I think those darned moviemakers are trying to telegraph the message that Jack is actually attracted to this guy...so there is tension, perhaps, in the idea of him falling upon the educated, polished version of Ennis: On the bubble in the community; with an actual degree in Animal Husbandry-what Ennis does every day at other people's C&Cs; and yikes-very similiar coloring, big guy, quiet....To me the moviemakers were trying to make us think this guy is a real threat (spits on ground). pheh....
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i always saw it as a way of jack getting back at lurene. she's sniping at him, he snipes back. typical married couple who no longer like each other much.
and a way for him to just get away from that table. he looks damn uncomfortable sitting there, for several reasons i am sure!
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Oh yea ladies, I do believe they were on each others radar but I get the distinct feeling that Jack is a little uncomfortable with Randall's atention not because he is a man but for some other reason I haven't been able to pinpoint. I do think that Jack is used to being the pursuer so maybe it is that. Anyone notice the same thing?
Yes. I tend to think it's all about Ennis. He gets as far with Randall on first meeting as he's done with Ennis in all those years. The things Randall suggests are references to his meetings with Ennis, I think - the cabin [Don Wroe's cabin], drinking whisky, 'fishing'.
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DES, Excellent insight I never saw it that way but it ist true! :)
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I sort of agree, des, but it's the 1000 yard stare that Jack gets which grabs me. Randall offers him everything he gets from Ennis and Jack is struck by the pain of knowing that these things are nothing without Ennis. But here is an opportunity to perhaps assuage some of his longing.
Randall presents Jack with a way of padding out his time with Ennis. The fact that he says in the end "Sometimes I miss you so much..." shows that Randall is not, and never could be, a substitute for Ennis. He just scratched Jack's itches now and then.
Jack's look is a bit like the last shot we see of him - complex and multi-layered, Perhaps Jack reallly is attracted to a chance to ease his pain a little.
*sobs a little for Jack*
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Although I'm nowhere near as good looking as Jack (if that's what it takes to get away with it), I must say, ladies, that I have never let a married man know I was interested in him by asking his wife to dance. That may pass for carpe diem in Childress, Texas, but not around here, that I've ever heard of.
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carpe LaShawn. Jack's reasons were many. Plus it gave us a chance to contrast Jack's improved dancing skills with Ennis's .... um.....style.
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I've always felt bad for Randall though - so much like me, never the bridesmaid, never the bride. And don't get mean, it's not LaShawns fault (couldn't her name have been "LaBob" to make it a little clearer that Randall was an unsuccessful gay gentleman?), is it?
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I've always felt bad for Randall though - so much like me, never the bridesmaid, never the bride. And don't get mean, it's not LaShawns fault (couldn't her name have been "LaBob" to make it a little clearer that Randall was an unsuccessful gay gentleman?), is it?
Am I the only one out here who actually likes and feels for LaShawn?
I enjoy prattle. (Perhaps because I understand from whence it springs?)
Especially when I'm tired and don't feel like thinking or talking much myself.
Prattle has its uses.
If I'm driving and I don't feel like contributing to any conversation for whatever reason,
I like the soothing sound of prattle in the background.
I have a friend who goes on like this sometimes.
I encourage her if I'm in the mood. Sometimes she'll stop and apologize for monopolizing the
conversation, but I just say, 'don't worry about it - go on'.
Of course, I've been known to prattle on myself so maybe it's an instance of one
prattler recognizing another.
Could be. ;D
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Rosewood, I like Lashawn but I have been told I could carry on a conversation with a brick wall. Guess I have something in common with you and Lashawn. ;D
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Rosewood, I like Lashawn but I have been told I could carry on a conversation with a brick wall. Guess I have something in common with you and Lashawn. ;D
Same here.
But I gotta' be in the mood.
Sometimes I can be silent and moody as a stump. ;)
Remember that scene in THE BOURNE IDENTITY when the female lead (forgot her name)
is driving Jason Bourne to Paris and he's just sitting quietly in that little car, zoning out while
she goes on and on and then she stops, realizing what she's doing, and he says,
no, go on, I don't mind?
I loved that scene because I recognized immediately how her prattle was, in some odd way,
helping him manage himself. It was a very human moment you wouldn't, necessarily,
expect to find in a film 'thriller'.
I expect that Randall used LaShawn's verbal abilities as camouflage.
It gave him the opportunity to sit back and peruse the situation.
It certainly gave him the time to case out Jack and reach certain conclusions.
Prattle has its uses.
Do we honestly think that LaShawn doesn't know this about her husband?
NOT that he's, necessarily, gay, but that he sends her on ahead to blaze some sort
of trail since he is, obviously, of a shy nature. I would say, retiring, except that the
intense gleam in his eye when he looks at Jack tells me otherwise. ;)
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Ii feel sorry for her...because I think she is smarter than she lets on-that reply to Lureen about the sorority sisters is telltale-she recovers well from a direct insult-that takes intelligence as well as a sense of dignity. So she must know or wonder about Randall.... But oh my is she ever grating....Jack seems amused; she is certainly warmer than his own wife. And perhaps Jack was testing Randall, see if he would get a jealous reaction-then he'd know he had missed a cue or something.
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I agree totally about LaShawn being a lot smarter than would be apparent if we paid attention only to her constant running off at the mouth. She lets nothing get her down or get in her way. This is one of the cues I get that make me wonder what she (they) are up to: some see Randall's cruising as genuine, I don't think it could possibly be unless he's totally stupid. He's been through four years of college, and even in Tecas, that close to Austin, he's have had to come into contact with the brutality of Texas style homophobia, so it just doesn't sit right. Being gay, I would first have to know his motivation: young married men ordinarily do not cruise another husband when they're both on dinner dates with their wives. ( Imagine you're out with your spouse and another couple and the opposite sex of the opposite couple starts cruising your sweetie.) Neither is Lureen stupid or unobservant (although this isn't about making money, she's still sharp when needs be), so you see that it just isn't real. Another thing that seems so disloyal to me is something I have to ask about, because Otherwise I'd never know - would any of you tell someone you'd just met (assuming for truth here) that you spent more money on clothes before you married him than your husband will ever make? On first meeting someone? Usually I would think that that's not an issue you would glibly introduce in a conversation that you know is being received with barely hidden hostility (from Lureen). Yes, I would call "my sorority's superior to yours" hostile - it sure as hell isn't friendly.
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Maybe we're supposed to see just cause for Randall wanting to rid himself of the wife-more Hollywood manipulation. Those 'made up' scenes, like the 4th of July, and the Randall/LeShawn scene are so pat to an extent; they don't ring true to me. Le Shawn is a talker, only so we get the info we need about Randall, so they can create a back story, so the audience would have an easier time believing what many of us cannot: that Jack would leave Ennis for the ranch neighbor.
the one in the story he has known a few months, and the guy never makes a further appearance except out of the dad's mouth...I think giving the guy a history with Jack makes him more of a real threat. It's not canon, of course. Its some melodrama for the movie, IMO.
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Another thing that seems so disloyal to me is something I have to ask about, because Otherwise I'd never know - would any of you tell someone you'd just met (assuming for truth here) that you spent more money on clothes before you married him than your husband will ever make? On first meeting someone? Usually I would think that that's not an issue you would glibly introduce in a conversation that you know is being received with barely hidden hostility (from Lureen). Yes, I would call "my sorority's superior to yours" hostile - it sure as hell isn't friendly.
yes but isn't that comment made as the two women are walking out of the building at the end of the night? meaning they have been in each other's company for a while now and the sorority comment was long past. and lashawn doesn't seem to be the one to let small barbs stick.
plus, in my mind a comment like that is a way of connecting woman-to-woman. women always seem to think that shopping is one of those common denominator things between women. plus those kind of comments i have heard many, many times from women i have recently met. we all know it is not meant literally but is just "one of those things you say" to continue conversation and appear friendly.
i always thought lashawn was a plot device to give us information about randall, as CSI mentions, so we can compare him to ennis as a potential match for jack (so the "ranch neighbor" comment later makes sense) and as a way for the dynamics of lurene and jack to be played out.
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CSI, I think the only part in the movie I disliked was that 4th of July scene. You are right and to me it seems so Clint Eastwood with the way Ennis is posing after the kick. Plus I don't beleive a big biker dude would have just layed on the ground and begged Ennis not to punch him. I found that a bit insulting to the audience's inteligence!
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CSI, I think the only part in the movie I disliked was that 4th of July scene. You are right and to me it seems so Clint Eastwood with the way Ennis is posing after the kick. Plus I don't beleive a big biker dude would have just layed on the ground and begged Ennis not to punch him. I found that a bit insulting to the audience's inteligence!
i know..there was a discussion about that scene in the dilikes thread. I do think it serves a couple of purposes, all the showy trappings aside:
To me, it shows us the path of rage Ennis was capable of being on, without his Jack lovins', all that time;
It shows that he is definitely attuned to threats about his masculinity-the biker murmurs about Ennis stopping 'giving it to his wife after the kids was born'-notice how Alma glances at the biker-that tells me he hit a nerve, and now maybe Alma has an explaination as to why Ennis may no longer appear to desire her-I am guessing he has started flipping her by this point;
and maybe Ang Lee wanted to de-mystify the myth of icon American masculinity-showing the underbelly of the cowboy, how much the myth can be a lie....
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i know..there was a discussion about that scene in the dilikes thread. I do think it serves a couple of purposes, all the showy trappings aside:
To me, it shows us the path of rage Ennis was capable of being on, without his Jack lovins', all that time;
It shows that he is definitely attuned to threats about his masculinity-the biker murmurs about Ennis stopping 'giving it to his wife after the kids was born'-notice how Alma glances at the biker-that tells me he hit a nerve, and now maybe Alma has an explaination as to why Ennis may no longer appear to desire her-I am guessing he has started flipping her by this point;
and maybe Ang Lee wanted to de-mystify the myth of icon American masculinity-showing the underbelly of the cowboy, how much the myth can be a lie....
That's how I see this scene also CS and that's why I like it so. It's in the de-mystifying bit that I find a lot of satisfaction. He defends his family with machismo while longing for Jack....with fireworks to boot!!!!! A good slap in the face at middle America, a 'queer' can defend himself.
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i know..there was a discussion about that scene in the dilikes thread. I do think it serves a couple of purposes, all the showy trappings aside:
To me, it shows us the path of rage Ennis was capable of being on, without his Jack lovins', all that time;
It shows that he is definitely attuned to threats about his masculinity-the biker murmurs about Ennis stopping 'giving it to his wife after the kids was born'-notice how Alma glances at the biker-that tells me he hit a nerve, and now maybe Alma has an explaination as to why Ennis may no longer appear to desire her-I am guessing he has started flipping her by this point;
and maybe Ang Lee wanted to de-mystify the myth of icon American masculinity-showing the underbelly of the cowboy, how much the myth can be a lie....
That's how I see this scene also CS and that's why I like it so. It's in the de-mystifying bit that I find a lot of satisfaction. He defends his family with machismo while longing for Jack....with fireworks to boot!!!!! A good slap in the face at middle America, a 'queer' can defend himself.
no arguments, j-j...it just always feels stagey to me, don't know why.....
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That's how I see this scene also CS and that's why I like it so. It's in the de-mystifying bit that I find a lot of satisfaction. He defends his family with machismo while longing for Jack....with fireworks to boot!!!!! A good slap in the face at middle America, a 'queer' can defend himself.
no arguments, j-j...it just always feels stagey to me, don't know why.....
yeah I hear you, it's the splashiest scene in the film.
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no arguments, j-j...it just always feels stagey to me, don't know why.....
It IS stagey precisely BECAUSE it is MEANT to be.
It is, far as I can tell, an ironic statement by the director to call our attention to
a moment meant only to point out Ennis's inner turmoil. It is the ambivalence of his
sexuality that is being assaulted here.
Yes, ambivalence. While he [Ennis] tries to and probably does prove a point about his
perceived masculinity. It is, at best, an unnecessary point that doesn't need proving.
Except to Ennis. Ang Lee calls our attention to it, including exclamation point fireworks
going off, just in case we were in doubt. As well as a final camera angle shot meant
to ENLARGE Ennis artificially. Meant to show US how Ennis must see himself in order
to survive. "I am the alpha dog who protects his family AND himself from real or
imagined slights." This is the only way, I suppose, that Ennis can feel good about himself.
Can prove to himself that he's still capable of the 'manly' arts.
I think this scene is probably necessary to understanding Ennis a bit better in the film.
Those biker bums are stand-ins for the frustrations in his life. Stand-ins for everything
he tries to control and can't. The fact that he obviously gets some satisfaction from
kicking the crap out of those guys tells us everything about Ennis at that point.
At that precise moment in time, he is king of the hill.
It is also a call to arms for Ennis as his interior wages war with the exterior while waiting
for Jack to come back into his life. And let's face it, this is precicsely what he's doing at
this point in his life.
Waiting.
None too patiently, it appears.
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Well said Rose!!!!
I really like the 'stand-ins' metaphor.
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Well said Rose!!!!
I really like the 'stand-ins' metaphor.
Thanks, JJ.
I do too.
I really believe that this is how Ennis's character sublimates.
And I like Ang Lee for going with it.
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no arguments, j-j...it just always feels stagey to me, don't know why.....
It IS stagey precisely BECAUSE it is MEANT to be.
It is, far as I can tell, an ironic statement by the director to call our attention to
a moment meant only to point out Ennis's inner turmoil. It is the ambivalence of his
sexuality that is being assaulted here.
Yes, ambivalence. While he [Ennis] tries to and probably does prove a point about his
perceived masculinity. It is, at best, an unnecessary point that doesn't need proving.
Except to Ennis. Ang Lee calls our attention to it, including exclamation point fireworks
going off, just in case we were in doubt. As well as a final camera angle shot meant
to ENLARGE Ennis artificially. Meant to show US how Ennis must see himself in order
to survive. "I am the alpha dog who protects his family AND himself from real or
imagined slights." This is the only way, I suppose, that Ennis can feel good about himself.
Can prove to himself that he's still capable of the 'manly' arts.
I think this scene is probably necessary to understanding Ennis a bit better in the film.
Those biker bums are stand-ins for the frustrations in his life. Stand-ins for everything
he tries to control and can't. The fact that he obviously gets some satisfaction from
kicking the crap out of those guys tells us everything about Ennis at that point.
At that precise moment in time, he is king of the hill.
It is also a call to arms for Ennis as his interior wages war with the exterior while waiting
for Jack to come back into his life. And let's face it, this is precicsely what he's doing at
this point in his life.
Waiting.
None too patiently, it appears.
And it creates one magnificent contradiction with Ennis being beat up by that driver after the Thanksgiving scene. One can clearly see Ennis emotionally declining slowly, less capable to handle the whole situation till the last time comes where Ennis collapses saying that he can't stand it anymore...Pretence taking its toll on Ennis soul, heart and mind and everything.
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And it creates one magnificent contradiction with Ennis being beat up by that driver after the Thanksgiving scene. One can clearly see Ennis emotionally declining slowly, less capable to handle the whole situation till the last time comes where Ennis collapses saying that he can't stand it anymore...Pretence taking each toll on Ennis soul, heart and mind and everything.
Oh my! I hadn't thought of that! Jeez, how many more times do I have to watch this thing!!
If we follow these two scenes with the "I'm nothing, I'm nowhere" scene we end up with Ennis loosing all his defenses against him loving Jack.
This is too hearbreaking. :'(
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Yes, Rosewood is correct once again. It was meant to be stagey and I suppose as she claims, it does bring some irony to the forefront. We indeed have talked about this scene along with the Jack Thanksgiving scene and I must admit they are my least favorite. Perhpas because I know some of the backstory. Schamus was really insistent that the film include some scenes depticitng the guys as true Western heroes in the old Hollywood cinematic sense to demonstrate to mainstream audiences that they were more than just two whiny, closeted gay guys. He went so far as to write that god awful hippie rescue scene (which, by rights, the ashes of which are decaying at the bottom of a trash heap in Griffith Park). Diana wrote these two so at least they contain some of her sensibilities and sensitivities to the context of the story. The fireworks, I guess are a nice little metaphor of Ennis as "time bomb" and the Thanksgiving scene does provide a bit of levity BUT it is totally out of character for Jack.....the guy who couldn't even convince Lureen to get the kid some help.
Oh well. On the other hand,I am an enormous fan of the " truck driver beating the shit out of Ennis" scene. It is so very true to Ennis' character.
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Yes, Rosewood is correct once again. It was meant to be stagey and I suppose as she claims, it does bring some irony to the forefront.....The fireworks, I guess are a nice little metaphor of Ennis as "time bomb" and the Thanksgiving scene does provide a bit of levity BUT it is totally out of character for Jack.....the guy who couldn't even convince Lureen to get the kid some help.
Oh well. On the other hand,I am an enormous fan of the " truck driver beating the shit out of Ennis" scene. It is so very true to Ennis' character.
The Thanksgiving scene is not so far off the mark, garyd.
Hear me out.
I think the moment showing Jack putting the father-in-law in his place is perfectly right and
acceptable. Done for the audience, more than anything else, I'd have thought.
It allows us, in our seats at home or in the theater to feel good FOR Jack.
To suspect that he does have a back bone WHEN he wishes to use it.
It allows us to hope that MAYBE Jack would have some new found respect within
his own family, even if only of the moment. In a way I see it is a panacea meant to
cushion what's comiing. Small comfort.
It also tells us that even Jack could only take so much.
Though he did 'take' and 'take' and 'take' from Ennis for many years and this proves,
I suppose, the depth of what he would allow and what he wouldn't. Love, of course, is
the 'enabler' in his relationship with Ennis.
Psycho-babble, I know. But what the hell...
I too like the truck driver beating Ennis scene because it shows me, as gres pointed out,
the very low as opposed to the very 'high' of the fireworks scene. This is an Ennis who RECOGNIZES
that he is out of control. (In a 'bad' way as opposed to the 'good' way of violence in 'defense'
of his family.) He MUST therefore allow himself to be punished.
Not by a woman though. Never by a woman. There's a nasty sort of undercurrent here that only
became apparent to me after much viewing of the film.
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I think you are correct, Rosie, that is exactly the purpose and the effect of the Jack Thanksgiving scene and I just don't like it. It does all of the things you say it does and, for me at least, it is simply out of character with the Jack of the SS.
Yeah, we are on the same page with the truckdriver beating scene though my reasons may be a bit different from yours. For me, (it occurs right after the Alma confrontation scene, Ennis feels trapped, too big for the room), Alma has spoken the truth. Ennis, to survive, has to be punished for that truth, it must be beaten back down into him so that it does not surface again. Ennis, as we have said, KNOWS the truth but he denies it. It must be kept hidden/submerged from everyone, including himself.
P.S. The last sentence in you previous post. It kind of sounds like you think Ennis is a misogynist? "Not by a woman though. Never by a woman". Really? Is that what you are thinking?
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I think you are correct, Rosie, that is exactly the purpose and the effect of the Jack Thanksgiving scene and I just don't like it. It does all of the things you say it does and, for me at least, it is simply out of character with the Jack of the SS.
Yeah, we are on the same page with the truckdriver beating scene though my reasons may be a bit different from yours. For me, (it occurs right after the Alma confrontation scene, Ennis feels trapped, too big for the room), Alma has spoken the truth. Ennis, to survive, has to be punished for that truth, it must be beaten back down into him so that it does not surface again. Ennis, as we have said, KNOWS the truth but he denies it. It must be kept hidden/submerged from everyone, including himself.
My reasons aren't too far off from yours, gary.
I have to try and make myself clearer and not simply assume that EVERYONE understands
my, often convoluted, points. ;)
Actually, I would say that the Jack of the short story would have had no trouble putting up
with a disrespectful father-in-law because as he's fashioned there, Jack would simply have looked
the other way. There wasn't much that bothered Jack in the SS except Ennis NOT agreeing
to live with him. I think in the film, we're taken in by JG's soulfullness and eagerness to please
which I admit I don't see as much of in the short story.
In the disruptive Thanksgiving kitchen scene where Ennis visits his ex-wife,
Alma has spoken the truth and what's worse, made Ennis AWARE of the fact that SHE
knows what's been going on AND that he hasn't fooled anyone. He is humiliated.
But he cannot allow HER to administer any punishment.
His 'manly' side just won't allow it.
It is a fine point, but I believe that Ennis makes it.
Do you see what I mean?
I'm convinced that he goes out looking for the 'proper' punishment then.
That 'proper' punishment being administered by a man.
In this way, Ennis is not only punished but he is debased.
At least in his own mind.
Yet in the next film cut, he is shown placidly riding alongside the love of his life.
Jeez.
Can you imagine the wear and tear on his emotions and his psyche and everything else
that goes into making up Ennis Del Mar?
It is mind boggling.
You wonder sometimes just HOW he's able to keep it all together.
Well, the fact is that he does.
At Jack's ultimate expense.
Yet in the end, in the prologue, he HAS given up.
He is shown then NOT keeping it all together.
He has no reason to.
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j-j, rosewood, gary, gres-WOW-great discussion.
Rosewood-nice revelations on the Txgiving scene. I won't look at it the same way again...hmmmm.....
You brains are cooking re the bookending of the biker getting beaten up, then Ennis by the other icon of masculinity-the truck driver. Very cool....I swear, some of this stuff is really clever...I never picked up on that connection before.
Ennis's misyogyny-well, if he can't love them, it is possible he also hates them a bit-his mom and sis both abandoned him, however unintentionally-and Alma short-changed him. He wanted to curse Lureen for letting Jack die on the dirt road of m/m sex, not being womanly enough to draw him in and keep him from queerdom...
So Ennis having been made to feel helpless as a little boy, without the continued nurturing, could easily feel pretty strong resentment-still being a victime. Not nice, but it makes sense. Esp when left with no way to work it thru, no one to really give him a guidepost or two.
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Yup, I am pretty much with you. I really still don't see the gender angle that you identify, however. I know that denial often leads to masochism so, for me, the beating makes perfect sense. However, I just don't see that whole, " not by a woman" aspect the way you do. On the other hand, the debasement at the hands of a male rings true.
As far as Ennis "keeping it together". Yeah, right on. I have mentioned before the amazing amount of physical and psychic energy Ennis has to expend in order to keep his tortured, complicated, little construct together. No wander he ends up shuffling around a dingy old trailer, peeing in the sink, drinking day old coffee. If nothing else, the poor guy is just plain exhausted! :)
Allowing that frame of a dream to slide into focus is about all the energy he has left.
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Jeez, you guys, I really think you need to put some more thought into this misogynist thing. I mean, on top of everything else, he HATES women? I guess it's just the guy thing coming out in me, but I have known some died in the wool misogynists in my time and they are sarcastic, disdainful, suck the life out of you, pigs. I just don't see it in Ennis. He loves Alma in a way. He certainly does not hate her. He loves his girls to pieces. In the short story he is "putting the blocks" to Cassie, which is kind of a crude, but I don't think misogynist, remark. In the film, there is no evidence of a disdainful, mean spirited, treatment of Cassie. He just says, "i guess I wasn't much fun". (Followed by one of my favorite lines from the film "Girls don't fall in love with FUN".)
I honestly think a guy can lose his mother, have a bad marriage, and be a closet gay, without hating women.
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.....P.S. The last sentence in you previous post. It kind of sounds like you think Ennis is a misogynist? "Not by a woman though. Never by a woman". Really? Is that what you are thinking?
Well, if I HAD to pick the misogynist of the two, my vote would go to Jack Twist.
But put that aside for now and let's just say that no, I'm don't think that's what I'm saying
about Ennis.
Maybe what I mean is that Ennis is so far removed from NEEDING the approbation of women
that being confronted by one unexpectedly spouting the truth, brings forth feelings he never
expected. If you look closely at him in this scene, HL shows us Ennis's complete and utter outrage.
It is amazing that he is able to stop himself from striking Alma.
There's a great deal of 'how dare she' in this scene.
I've always said this. It isn't just about Alma KNOWING, but is about Alma KNOWING and
DARING to confront.
Ennis knows he cannot go 'mano a mano' with a woman. So how else to express himself?
Must he submit to her and allow her to debase and humiliate him further?
No.
For that he goes to a man because a physical confrontation is something he can understand
and even, in that moment, NEEDS to feel. No, perhaps not in a sexual sense, but in a very
strong physical sense he wants and needs to be punished in the way his own father might,
perhaps, have punished him.
I guess what I'm saying is that for Ennis, only a man has the power to punish him.
Am I making any sense?
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Yup, perfect sense. I was receiving a slight different signal from your earlier post but I think I receive this one loud and clear and I am in absolute agreement.
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Jeez, you guys, I really think you need to put some more thought into this misogynist thing. I mean, on top of everything else, he HATES women? I guess it's just the guy thing coming out in me, but I have known some died in the wool misogynists in my time and they are sarcastic, disdainful, suck the life out of you, pigs. I just don't see it in Ennis. He loves Alma in a way. He certainly does not hate her. He loves his girls to pieces. In the short story he is "putting the blocks" to Cassie, which is kind of a crude, but I don't think misogynist, remark. In the film, there is no evidence of a disdainful, mean spirited, treatment of Cassie. He just says, "i guess I wasn't much fun". (Followed by one of my favorite lines from the film "Girls don't fall in love with FUN".)
I honestly think a guy can lose his mother, have a bad marriage, and be a closet gay, without hating women.
true...I was giving the thought it's due, trying to test it by backing it up...I too think Jack has more obvious resentments; I think Ennis is no more capable, however, of an adult relationship with a woman than Jack is-although Jack is socially more adept at it. But let's face it-they both want each other and have been bound to women in the past-that has to build up some ill will....Al-Ma is just that-a nurturing figure to Ennis. Sure at some point, he cared of her.... Interestingly-this is not a function of a man being gay; many straight men can't get past the mom thing... :D ;) Not that women can get past the daddy thing either..... :o :o
I don't mean it to sound so judgemental, that's why I edited it....fyi.
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While we're talking about the biker scene, don't forget another of its pairs, the "Supper's on the stove" fight, where Alma, having to go to work to help support the family, leaves Ennis doing the womanly job of feeding the kids, which he resents.
He takes out his anger on the ash can by kicking it a la the biker, and in case we don't get the connection, there's the fireworks-type graphic clearly shown on the swing set.
Once again, it's a scene where Ennis's sense of his own masculinity is called into question and he reacts violently.
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IMO it seems Ennis is going around beating up any man he can trying to "knock the crap" out of his own life. If anything he is more of a man-hater trying to eliminate the attributes he sees and doesn't like in himself. Self abuse sort of. :)
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very good...wow the film has it's own little treasures-this should go on S&I, too!
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Hi this scene to me is very telling, because you can see in Ennis's stance, his face, his demeanor, that he wants to grab Jack and kiss him and not let him go, he can't really look at him, it hurts too much, considering the way they were leaving up on the mountain, he hit him, here he can't do that, and doesn't want to, what ever drove him to strike out like that has gone, and all he wants right now is to hold him, hang on for dear life, and tell Jack not to go, but instead he does nothing, no punch, no hug, no words, that are choking him, wanting out, he just pretends and let it go. As he is walking away, his life is no longer his, he has chose to take the road that was forbidden, and now he is destine to walk this very thin line alone, how is he going to able to do this, he is more terrified at that moment than he has ever been, what did he do, he has just turned his ordinary, mundane, normal life into a big gaping hole in his heart and belly, one that he has no idea how to repair, how or if he ever will.
Jack drove away knowing that he has just drove away from the best thing he has ever known, he knows that he will never feel so alive, so in love, so content again, not as long as that strange man walking behind him, is out there, how can he ever forget, does he really want to, but he has no choice, the decision has been made for him, and he will never be the same. He found for the first time in his life a safe haven, a place where he felt 10 feet tall, that he could take on the world, he was all that in the arms of a man that for all he knows right now, will write him off, as a bad experience, and to only be thought of as a mistake. He has no idea how Ennis is feeling right now, he has no idea that he is puking in an alley for fear of just having lost his future, his soul mate. He is not alone in this over powering feeling of loss, despair, loneliness, fear, he just doesn't know, neither of them do, and that is so sad, they are both living a nightmare, and if only they had said something they could have come to some resolution, or something, instead of living a nightmare for 4 years, one which in the long run will be nothing compared to the life they have ahead of them.
Also I wonder if it was just an over sight but I noticed a Canadian flag out the window as Jack was driving away, it just kind of struck me kind of odd, but anyway that scene always hit home very hard, I felt so sorry for them both, I thought that was going to be the worst part, but was I mistaken, I felt worse and worse everytime they met and left each other, it got harder and harder each time. jwm
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Jwm, thanks for almost making me ball! Your post is very beautifully written and so accurate. As far as the Canadian flag, from what I understand is some or maybe all of the movie was filmed in Canada. I guess it costs less to film there etc. I might be wrong but someone else can help us out with this one. :)
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It was filmed entirely in Canada.
Could I point out to the newer posters that there is an excellent thread called Structure and Editing (or maybe the other way round) on this Elements and Themes section. It hasn't seen much action of late but contains a wealth of good stuff about how scenes in the film are linked together so that you get more out of one particular scene by comparing it with another.
It also deals with things like the three-act structure (with two entre-acts and a coda) and how scenes are edited for maximum effect.
It sounds dry as dust but it's not. I think it's fascinating, and since this discussion veered onto comparing scenes and what they tell us about J&E, you might find it worth a read.
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Hi Mini, thaniks! The scenery is so beautiful. I would like to visit there!
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I knew it was done here in Canada, but I was surprised to see it there, I forget that it was here, not in Wyoming, it tells such a story, that I think they are really there, and the places are real. but I will go and check that thread though, thanks, jwm
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I have been away and just found the great discussion about the night with LaShawn and Randall. Lots of new insights in there, plenty of food for thought.
My take as it had been so far (and I may change it a bit, having read your posts):
Lureen and LaShawn are about to out their husbands unwittingly - Lureen perhaps more intentionnally than LaShawn. Both are obviously frustrated wives. Meanwhile, the husbands are checking one another and Jack is attracted, but a bit uncomfortable, worried that the whole situation may become too obvious. He is visibly shaken by it all, drops ashes all over himself and seeks a way to get away from the table. Inviting LaShawn is both a gentlemanly thing to do, a way of checking if Randall is territorial about his wife (if he is not, there is a better chance that Jack did not misunderstand his glances), a convenient escape (LaShawn is so talkative he won't need to entertain her, he can let her chat while he gets lost in his thoughts - he needs to think) and a way to get back at his wife for her bitchy comment.
Actually, I don't think she is being bitchy, rather she is bitter, disillusioned, deeply unhappy. And this shows even more in her expression when she watches him go to the dance floor. Years of being ignored and shunned despite all her efforts to attract his attention have killed her slowly. And yet she still loves him and is still very hurt by his indifference. Amazing how such a young actress as Hathaway could understand and portray that.
Jack gets away from the table not just to get out of an uncomfortable situation, but because he needs to think. What is he going to do about Randall? Handsome, educated, living in the area and in the same situation as him (married to keep up appearances). He could be a perfect replacement for Ennis if Jack was not so much in love with Ennis. The music in the background is his internal dialogue - I don't want to say goodbye: with Randall he would not have to say goodbye for months on end, live through the anguish and sorrow of the last night of each fishin trip. But he does not want to, and simply cannot, say goodbye to Ennis for good.
So, being the opportunist/survivor that he is, he decides to have Randall on the side, hence his efforts to keep up a conversation on the bench, and sitting a bit closer to him than would be expected. But the choice of words when Randall makes his offer makes it very painful for Jack: as one of you pointed out, he offers within the first hours of meeting what Jack got out of Ennis after years of longing for him and with great, and increading, difficulty.
This may have made Jack realise how very little he was getting from Ennis, something that other people willingly offer at the beginning of a relationship, with a hope for more, while Ennis had given so much more on the mountain, and now found it difficult even to give this. This is also a measure of Jack's love for Ennis, that he could still say to Ennis, after getting as much of Randall as he wanted (presumably), that he misses him so much he can hardly stand it...
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Mouk, thanks for reminding me about the music. The first tune which is played (the fiddle piece) is Angel Went Up In Flames, which to me is a direct remark about Jack, the angel, and perhaps about how this relationship is going to burn him, one way or another.
On the bench it's Jack who makes the first move - Ever wonder why a woman will powder her nose before she goes to bed? That line always struck me as an opening for Randall to walk straight into, which he does.
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Mouk, thanks for reminding me about the music. The first tune which is played (the fiddle piece) is Angel Went Up In Flames, which to me is a direct remark about Jack, the angel, and perhaps about how this relationship is going to burn him, one way or another.
Hence the Wings in the end?
On the bench it's Jack who makes the first move - Ever wonder why a woman will powder her nose before she goes to bed? That line always struck me as an opening for Randall to walk straight into, which he does.
Yes, he is trying to show him he does not understand women, and Randall goes further: he does not understand them and he is not interested in trying
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Actually, my interpretation was a little balder. He just wants to work the word "bed" into the conversation.
"The Wings" is also the name of the first gay film, made in the 1920s. It's taken from a sculpture of the same name, depicting Zeus as an eagle picking up the shepherd Ganymede. Ennis as the eagle is a pretty strong symbolic idea in the story so we have angel and eagle (and dove).
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Actually, my interpretation was a little balder. He just wants to work the word "bed" into the conversation.|
Oops, I had never noticed that! 16 months of BBM, slash and straight girl questions, and I am still the innocent one ::)
"The Wings" is also the name of the first gay film, made in the 1920s. It's taken from a sculpture of the same name, depicting Zeus as an eagle picking up the shepherd Ganymede. Ennis as the eagle is a pretty strong symbolic idea in the story so we have angel and eagle (and dove).
... and the crows, unfortunately
Ganymède, the most handsome shepherd on earth... In the film it certainly figures
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Actually, I don't think she is being bitchy, rather she is bitter, disillusioned, deeply unhappy. And this shows even more in her expression when she watches him go to the dance floor. Years of being ignored and shunned despite all her efforts to attract his attention have killed her slowly. And yet she still loves him and is still very hurt by his indifference. Amazing how such a young actress as Hathaway could understand and portray that.
Yes, I loved Anne Hathaway in that role. She gets across Lureen's hardness, brittleness but makes her sympathetic - I find her portrayal quite haunting. She's there on the outskirts of the story, with her wasted life, her broken dreams, etc.
We don't know at the end if she has the status of the grieving widow, or if she's a joke in the town - the woman with the gay husband.
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So, being the opportunist/survivor that he is, he decides to have Randall on the side, hence his efforts to keep up a conversation on the bench, and sitting a bit closer to him than would be expected. But the choice of words when Randall makes his offer makes it very painful for Jack: as one of you pointed out, he offers within the first hours of meeting what Jack got out of Ennis after years of longing for him and with great, and increading, difficulty.
This may have made Jack realise how very little he was getting from Ennis, something that other people willingly offer at the beginning of a relationship, with a hope for more, while Ennis had given so much more on the mountain, and now found it difficult even to give this. This is also a measure of Jack's love for Ennis, that he could still say to Ennis, after getting as much of Randall as he wanted (presumably), that he misses him so much he can hardly stand it...
That may have been me [Randall offering the whole of the relationship with Ennis on the first meeting]. He's offering a cabin - a step on from a tent. Jack and Ennis have Don Wroe's cabin once, and never again. And Jack's plan is that he and Ennis will build a log cabin together up at Lighting Flats. And yes, it's a measure of his love that he still misses Ennis so much - but that's love isn't it? It's difficult to get away from - obsessive, consuming.
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Interesting about the cabin..I've pointed out that Ennis does know, deep down, what Jack really wants, he never forgets...He gave him that cabin of Don Wroe's-I have speculated, that is when Jack started talking about the cabin at LF.....
A couple of things I picked up on, and they are in diff scenes, so, after my viewing this weekend, thought I'd lay em out:
-In the eyeing each other scene outside Aguirre's trailer-notice how Ennis looks down at his bag,with all his belongings, after he secretly looks at Jack, who has turned away from him; Jack has a truck, he has a bag. I think he is embarassed about it; the way he kind of looks over Aquirre's truck, makes me think of his harsh poverty and upbringing. Two $5 bills in a coffee can were the world to him.....
-In the July 4th scene, notice how Ennis puts his arm up around Alma, his hand on her neck, as they bikers talk about women in that demeaning way; then contrast that with Jack's comment about having to be under the c*nt truck-I just think it is interesting in light of their varying abilities to adapt within the confines of their own psyches-here Jack is with Lureen for nearly 20 years-and Ennis and Alma last 10, even with his maternal attachment to her...It kind of tell me Ennis is not as good at containing himself as Jack in a way-yet Jack is more expressive. Just interesting...
-I have a new appreciation for Timmy the Asphalt God-he basically convinces Ennis of what he never wants to be-and we can sense that Ennis is light years ahead of him-an ironic contrast: Here the undereducated guy with no prospects, who is supposed to want a dead-end job with mental drones around him-and he knows clearly, that this is not something he could tolerate. Heath Ledgers' acting is so subtle here...You know he just can't wait to get back on his horse-he looks down the highway and sees it never-ending; the only road for him, 'out' of his circumstances-he won't do better. And he sees what the job has done to Timmy. Another icon shot to hell-'working for the government'. Who needs it.....back to the ranch. I can't imagine how bad that tar must smell....
-I love how Ennis relaxes under Jack's touch, in the Earl scene, afterwards-when Jack caresses his neck-the echo of the old man gripping his neck like a little chicken, when he looks at Earl-you sense him handing his will over-that was some good nookie, afterwards, you know it...
-This has been mentioned I know, but notice how silent Jack gets after Ennis reminds him they may have to work for Aguirre again-I mean he is super-pissed about the sheep mixing, and he just shuts right up. He's been handed some criitcal info about Ennis-that he sees them as a 'we'.
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I have been away and just found the great discussion about the night with LaShawn and Randall. Lots of new insights in there, plenty of food for thought.
My take as it had been so far (and I may change it a bit, having read your posts):
Lureen and LaShawn are about to out their husbands unwittingly - Lureen perhaps more intentionnally than LaShawn. Both are obviously frustrated wives. Meanwhile, the husbands are checking one another and Jack is attracted, but a bit uncomfortable, worried that the whole situation may become too obvious. He is visibly shaken by it all, drops ashes all over himself and seeks a way to get away from the table. Inviting LaShawn is both a gentlemanly thing to do, a way of checking if Randall is territorial about his wife (if he is not, there is a better chance that Jack did not misunderstand his glances), a convenient escape (LaShawn is so talkative he won't need to entertain her, he can let her chat while he gets lost in his thoughts - he needs to think) and a way to get back at his wife for her bitchy comment.
Actually, I don't think she is being bitchy, rather she is bitter, disillusioned, deeply unhappy. And this shows even more in her expression when she watches him go to the dance floor. Years of being ignored and shunned despite all her efforts to attract his attention have killed her slowly. And yet she still loves him and is still very hurt by his indifference. Amazing how such a young actress as Hathaway could understand and portray that.
Jack gets away from the table not just to get out of an uncomfortable situation, but because he needs to think. What is he going to do about Randall? Handsome, educated, living in the area and in the same situation as him (married to keep up appearances). He could be a perfect replacement for Ennis if Jack was not so much in love with Ennis. The music in the background is his internal dialogue - I don't want to say goodbye: with Randall he would not have to say goodbye for months on end, live through the anguish and sorrow of the last night of each fishin trip. But he does not want to, and simply cannot, say goodbye to Ennis for good.
So, being the opportunist/survivor that he is, he decides to have Randall on the side, hence his efforts to keep up a conversation on the bench, and sitting a bit closer to him than would be expected. But the choice of words when Randall makes his offer makes it very painful for Jack: as one of you pointed out, he offers within the first hours of meeting what Jack got out of Ennis after years of longing for him and with great, and increading, difficulty.
This may have made Jack realise how very little he was getting from Ennis, something that other people willingly offer at the beginning of a relationship, with a hope for more, while Ennis had given so much more on the mountain, and now found it difficult even to give this. This is also a measure of Jack's love for Ennis, that he could still say to Ennis, after getting as much of Randall as he wanted (presumably), that he misses him so much he can hardly stand it...
Truth be told, this is probably why I'm still single (well, that and the unmitigated jerk thing), but I really do not see anything from Jack that would indicate he is interested in Randall at all. If you can help this poor single queer out, please show me the way. Seriously, this maybe the information I need to get next to somebody once before I die. Send help. This may sound like I'm not serious - I am. (I am the only queer you know who has been stopped going into a gay bar and asked if I knew it was a gay bar... ) Please send help. I just can't see it and feel the need to see what apparently every other human on the face of the earth can see. Thanks to you in advance.
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Truth be told, this is probably why I'm still single (well, that and the unmitigated jerk thing), but I really do not see anything from Jack that would indicate he is interested in Randall at all. If you can help this poor single queer out, please show me the way. Seriously, this maybe the information I need to get next to somebody once before I die. Send help. This may sound like I'm not serious - I am. (I am the only queer you know who has been stopped going into a gay bar and asked if I knew it was a gay bar... ) Please send help. I just can't see it and feel the need to see what apparently every other human on the face of the earth can see. Thanks to you in advance.
Fofol, are you referring to your gaydar or lack there of?
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Truth be told, this is probably why I'm still single (well, that and the unmitigated jerk thing), but I really do not see anything from Jack that would indicate he is interested in Randall at all. If you can help this poor single queer out, please show me the way. Seriously, this maybe the information I need to get next to somebody once before I die. Send help. This may sound like I'm not serious - I am. (I am the only queer you know who has been stopped going into a gay bar and asked if I knew it was a gay bar... ) Please send help. I just can't see it and feel the need to see what apparently every other human on the face of the earth can see. Thanks to you in advance.
LOL Fofol
As I see it, Jack would not have hit on Randall from his own initiative, but he reacted (subtly) to Randall's signals: glances, clumsy with his cigarette, the quiproquo when he asks Lureen to dance, checking out Randall while he dances, initiating the conversation on the bench and trying hard to keep it going and to find points of common interest even thouh Randall is not very responsive; sitting a bit too close to him, and in a very similar position. It is as though in the restaurant Randall had said with his eyes 'I am interested in you' and on the bench Jack says 'well, I've been thinking and I coud be interested if you are'. Then he looks really sad because Randall's offer is too close to what Jack has been living with Ennis all those years. It is so easy to get this stranger, while it is so hard to get Ennis.
Don't ask ME for help on picking up signals, mate. It's all very well on the screen, but in real life :D... I recently found a card sent by an ex 25 years ago, before we actually went out together. I was very (should I say desperately) interested at the time but not too sure how interested he was in me. It is only when I found this card a month ago that I realised it was a very romantic picture of two flamingos, necks intertwined, definitely a couple. All I had seen at the time was a beautiful batik picture of African wildlife!! Message totally lost on me for a quarter of a century... ;D ;D ;D
Too late by a long, long while. Even Ennis figured things out 25 times faster !
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Mike, if you're serious.......I'd say this is a constructed scene, so somewhat diff from the reality..It does not mean something is amiss with you, of course, unless you are someone who intellectualizes their way thru situations-I can do that myself-so you can miss emotional cues.
I'd say the 'interest' -mild as it is- becomes clearer when we see Jack react to the info that Randall majored in Animal Husbandry-Ennis's actual field-and then, Randall smiles at him. There is a recognition there, a give and take.
Of course, he is mostly an opportunity presenting itself-it does not mean any great emotionas have been tapped-I see that almost dread look on Jack's face as him remembering what he cannot get from Ennis.
Its all bS anyway, none of this happens in the SS ;D
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Truth be told, this is probably why I'm still single (well, that and the unmitigated jerk thing), but I really do not see anything from Jack that would indicate he is interested in Randall at all. If you can help this poor single queer out, please show me the way. Seriously, this maybe the information I need to get next to somebody once before I die. Send help. This may sound like I'm not serious - I am. (I am the only queer you know who has been stopped going into a gay bar and asked if I knew it was a gay bar... ) Please send help. I just can't see it and feel the need to see what apparently every other human on the face of the earth can see. Thanks to you in advance.
a) that made me laugh. out loud. I don't believe it for an instant.
2) I never really saw Jack interested in Randall - I saw Jack so effin' miserable on that bench that he could hardly stand it. If Randall - who was married and macho and all that - could be interested in a "fishin' buddy", then why couldn't Ennis? Jack's heart is literally breaking by the time the wives come down those steps...
That's what I've seen so far. I was really afraid I'd missed something. Probably because I miss an awful lot if it's not said: I've put my foot in it often enough to be perpetually shy of assuming. (Doh, you numbskull, you've been cruising an interesting gentleman who is apparently cruising back, and then it hits you - he's checking out some dude behind you.... <slink> <slink> <slink> ...) A tricky business this non-verbal communication is.
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I don't think that Jack was interested in Randal, he seemed rattled by him checking him out, and being so brazen, Jack is attractive, but why or how in the hell would anyone know just by sitting across from a man and his wife, that he was gay? I might sound dense but I just don't get it, Jack just looked adorable, sexy but not gay, I would have hit on him for sure. By getting LaShawn up to dance, I thought he was telling Randal, that he is not interested in men, he would much sooner dance with his lovely wife, and sitting out on the bench to me he looked very uncomfortable, tried to keep the talk going, to break up the awkwardness of the whole situation, he must of just wanted to cry when he mentioned the cabin, as if it wasn't hard enough, and Ennis was always on his mind, well this guy just reinforced the torment he feels each time he is out and about playing this role, when all he wanted to do was be freezing , sitting beside his lover.
God this story just keeps getting sadder all the time, instead of getting easier, I have tears just sitting here.
Jwm
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Truth be told, this is probably why I'm still single (well, that and the unmitigated jerk thing), but I really do not see anything from Jack that would indicate he is interested in Randall at all. If you can help this poor single queer out, please show me the way. Seriously, this maybe the information I need to get next to somebody once before I die. Send help. This may sound like I'm not serious - I am. (I am the only queer you know who has been stopped going into a gay bar and asked if I knew it was a gay bar... ) Please send help. I just can't see it and feel the need to see what apparently every other human on the face of the earth can see. Thanks to you in advance.
Fofol, are you referring to your gaydar or lack there of?
Utter lack. I really am never sure what anybody means unless I'm told. When it comes to interest, whether sexual or romantic, I can't tell without direct communication and even then if it isn't clear, or if I can't believe it, I can still screw it up.
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I don't think that Jack was interested in Randal, he seemed rattled by him checking him out, and being so brazen, Jack is attractive, but why or how in the hell would anyone know just by sitting across from a man and his wife, that he was gay? I might sound dense but I just don't get it, Jack just looked adorable, sexy but not gay, I would have hit on him for sure. By getting LaShawn up to dance, I thought he was telling Randal, that he is not interested in men, he would much sooner dance with his lovely wife, and sitting out on the bench to me he looked very uncomfortable, tried to keep the talk going, to break up the awkwardness of the whole situation, he must of just wanted to cry when he mentioned the cabin, as if it wasn't hard enough, and Ennis was always on his mind, well this guy just reinforced the torment he feels each time he is out and about playing this role, when all he wanted to do was be freezing , sitting beside his lover.
God this story just keeps getting sadder all the time, instead of getting easier, I have tears just sitting here.
Jwm
My sentiments, exactly. You don't suppose that someone might have told him?
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. But the choice of words when Randall makes his offer makes it very painful for Jack: as one of you pointed out, he offers within the first hours of meeting what Jack got out of Ennis after years of longing for him and with great, and increading, difficulty.
This may have made Jack realise how very little he was getting from Ennis, something that other people willingly offer at the beginning of a relationship, with a hope for more, while Ennis had given so much more on the mountain, and now found it difficult even to give this.
I couldn't disagree more, and don't understand this view at all. How little he was getting from Ennis? Ennis responded to Jack from the get-go almost as soon as he met him (in his nonverbal way which Jack didn't miss), and up on Brokeback, he responded with all his heart to Jack. This is an intense and once in a life time love, or have we forgotten? And, Ennis does offer Jack the cabin when he is able to, as we know from his reference to it in their last scene together. Randall has more money, and ready access to a cabin. So? That's all. And, why is this cabin such a great offer? The offer of the cabin with Ennis means so much more to Jack than an offer by Randall of the same thing. (which shows that Randall isn't thinking beyond getting laid -- at least we know that's not true of Ennis. After all, 20 years and counting).
I don't think that "Ennis had given so much more on the mountain and now found it difficult to even give this" can be subtantiated in the story at all. As a matter of fact, Ennis gives Jack his whole life, year after year, as he is able, and does offer the cabin again to Jack in their last meeting together. I don't think there is any "beginning to the relationship" here. There's no relationship that I can see, just a man who wants to get laid. Jack is not too enthusiastic at the mention of the cabin, to say the least. That's why he looks away, thinking, as others have said, about the thousand miles back to Ennis.
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Mike, if you're serious.......I'd say this is a constructed scene, so somewhat diff from the reality..It does not mean something is amiss with you, of course, unless you are someone who intellectualizes their way thru situations-I can do that myself-so you can miss emotional cues.
I'd say the 'interest' -mild as it is- becomes clearer when we see Jack react to the info that Randall majored in Animal Husbandry-Ennis's actual field-and then, Randall smiles at him. There is a recognition there, a give and take.
Of course, he is mostly an opportunity presenting itself-it does not mean any great emotionas have been tapped-I see that almost dread look on Jack's face as him remembering what he cannot get from Ennis.
Its all bS anyway, none of this happens in the SS ;D
Jo, break open the champagne, we won't be going back to Mundane this evening! I think you've hit, for me, on Randall's total purpose in the film - a foil against Ennis to let us see that Jack doesn't have to think about it at all, the compare and contrast happens on the fly and Randall doesn't stand a chance. Jack recognizes without assessing: comfort, money, education in a package to write home about are dust in the wind compared to love he has, however unsatisfactory it seems at times, even at times like these. And I thank you once again great Carnak for providing the questions to my answers. 8) This is what we are supposed to know from the "Randall" event: Jack loves Ennis, really loves Ennis.
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Lauren, I probably did not express myself properly, there seems to be a total misunderstanding between us here, while I think that fundamentally we agree.
I completely agree that Ennis gave all he could.
What I meant is that Ennis had been a very willing and fully available partner on the mountain, when the world belonged to them and nothing seemed wrong, but then he refused the C&C operation (perhaps with good reason, perhaps not) and rationed the time they spent together. Then there was the post divorce rejection. By the end he was rationing the time spent together more and more: You used to come easy now it's like seeing the Pope, says Jack. This is the opposite of most relationships when you expect to get fishin trips that will become more frequent and end up as a proper full time partnership.
Randall offers fishin trips immediately without Jack even having to ask. In this, there could be a promise of a relationship that could develop over time. Depending on whether Randall is willing to out himself. Then we hear that Jack was going to bring the ranch neighbour to LF, which would hint to the fact that this 'relationship' is following the course one would normally expect. I don't want to believe that Jack really meant to live with Randall. But perhaps he said it because he knew it would be feasible if he wanted to, perhaps Randall had indeed mentioned his willingness to live together, away from it all "Get away, you know?"
To be honest I never even thought of the cabin when I talked about Randall offering more. I was talking in terms of availability for a bit of fishin and whiskey drinking. I never saw what all the fuss about the cabin was about, perhaps because I am so undomesticated myself and feel much happier in a tent in the middle of nowhere than in domestic bliss. We all read according to our personalities. My bad, I know. Reading all the posts about it made me see why this cabin could have been important. But again, I was not, in the post you quote, talking about material goods, only about availability.
But then, I am a hopeless romantic ;)
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Mike, if you're serious.......I'd say this is a constructed scene, so somewhat diff from the reality..It does not mean something is amiss with you, of course, unless you are someone who intellectualizes their way thru situations-I can do that myself-so you can miss emotional cues.
I'd say the 'interest' -mild as it is- becomes clearer when we see Jack react to the info that Randall majored in Animal Husbandry-Ennis's actual field-and then, Randall smiles at him. There is a recognition there, a give and take.
Of course, he is mostly an opportunity presenting itself-it does not mean any great emotionas have been tapped-I see that almost dread look on Jack's face as him remembering what he cannot get from Ennis.
Its all bS anyway, none of this happens in the SS ;D
Jo, break open the champagne, we won't be going back to Mundane this evening! I think you've hit, for me, on Randall's total purpose in the film - a foil against Ennis to let us see that Jack doesn't have to think about it at all, the compare and contrast happens on the fly and Randall doesn't stand a chance. Jack recognizes without assessing: comfort, money, education in a package to write home about are dust in the wind compared to love he has, however unsatisfactory it seems at times, even at times like these. And I thank you once again great Carnak for providing the questions to my answers. 8) This is what we are supposed to know from the "Randall" event: Jack loves Ennis, really loves Ennis.
Oh, I do like your summary, Mike-yes, Ennis, only Ennis, is loved by Jack. That's the same reason Cassie was elaborated on: We don't see Ennis leaning seriously towards Cassie, do we? Of course, there could be some irony there,too-Ennis has a great op to play it straight-and he just can't.
But, hey, pass that champagne over friend, let's drink to the love that will never grow old.... :)
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Ennis gave all he could.
What I meant is that Ennis had been a very willing and fully available partner on the mountain, when the world belonged to them and nothing seemed wrong, but then he refused the C&C operation (perhaps with good reason, perhaps not) and rationed the time they spent together. Then there was the post divorce rejection. By the end he was rationing the time spent together more and more: You used to come easy now it's like seeing the Pope, says Jack. This is the opposite of most relationships when you expect to get fishin trips that will become more frequent and end up as a proper full time partnership.
Randall offers fishin trips immediately without Jack even having to ask. In this, there could be a promise of a relationship that could develop over time. Depending on whether Randall is willing to out himself. Then we hear that Jack was going to bring the ranch neighbour to LF, which would hint to the fact that this 'relationship' is following the course one would normally expect. I don't want to believe that Jack really meant to live with Randall. But perhaps he said it because he knew it would be feasible if he wanted to, perhaps Randall had indeed mentioned his willingness to live together, away from it all "Get away, you know?"
To be honest I never even thought of the cabin when I talked about Randall offering more. I was talking in terms of availability for a bit of fishin and whiskey drinking. I never saw what all the fuss about the cabin was about, perhaps because I am so undomesticated myself and feel much happier in a tent in the middle of nowhere than in domestic bliss. We all read according to our personalities. My bad, I know. Reading all the posts about it made me see why this cabin could have been important. But again, I was not, in the post you quote, talking about material goods, only about availability.
But then, I am a hopeless romantic ;)
I wasn't talking about material goods either, Mouk, and thanks for your clarification. :) I prefer a tent as well and so I disagree with the importance others have placed on a cabin.
I don't see Randall's offer as signalling that he's offering the start of a relationship, or that it's significant to Jack. There's no indication of any of that. There's no where else that two men could go in that time and place but up to a cabin or somewhere out of sight (or risk death), so what Randall is offering in a cloy way is no different than what other man might offer that wants to have sex completely incognito in a homophobic world.
But all we see is a hint of an offer of sex, maybe. And Jack doesn't accept it, nor does he look like he wants to.
I feel differently about what Ennis gives: their relationship can't progress naturally as it might in today's society because that society wouldn't allow it. So it's unfair to place the burden on Ennis for the mores of a society in which he was borne and must cope with. Jack has to cope with it too, which is why he marries.
I don't see that Jack places a great importance on goin' fishing up at a cabin; as some sort of signal that a man is serious. Jack never asks for a cabin from Ennis -- it's Ennis who thought of offering that to him (the story and film) because I'm sure Ennis felt it was something he could give to Jack that Jack would like. He's always trying to give Jack what he wants. But Ennis has given Jack much, much more than a cabin.
That's why Jack says "I miss you so much I can hardly stand it" after a supposed liaison with the rancher. That line is there for a reason: it shows that Ennis has always been first in his heart and remains so despite their hardships. So much for the ranch neighbor.
It's just so clear to me from what we hear and see in the film and book where Jack's heart (and Ennis') lie -- with each other. Jack knows Ennis, that's why we see the DE when we do, to show us what Jack treasures. That's not a man who's looking. Wtih all due respect Mouk, I think imagining that what the father says as meaning that this was a real evolution of a relationship is creating a backstory for the ranch neighbor and Jack that just doesn't exist, that there is no evidence for in the book or film.
What can't be forgotten is that Jack's father adds, "it never come to pass" which is said very specifically to show that any so called "plans" never happened, that it was Jack who chose not to bring these "plans" to pass before his death, or that they never happened because they were never real. We don't even have to know the reason -- all we need to know is that Jack was behind the axing of those "plans." Why? To show us that it's always and only been about Ennis and Jack.
What Ennis gives to Jack, Jack loves because he's been coming back for 20 years. Obviously, he always comes back because he loves him.
Jack's not dissatisfied with Ennis the man as he is at not seeing Ennis often enough. Also, and I think this is important and often pushed aside, Jack is not being up front with Ennis all those years about their relationship and his needs.
So, it's not as though Jack is an open book and Ennis is just being cruel. IMHO.
Sorry, mods, got off the main thread topic.
PS, Mouk, I'll celebrate with you, fofol, and CSI above with some champagne too -- to the love that will never grow old.
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I'm with Mouk here - I think she explains precisely why Jack looks so miserable. His dreams are being offerred to him on a plate - by the wrong guy. I did wonder if Jack had other local affairs, but I'm not sure he did. This may have been the first time something like this happened.
The cabin is important to Jack because of what it rerpresents - a little step closer to living together. He dreams of living in a cabin with Ennis up at Lighting Flats. 'Don Wroe's cabin' must have seemed like Ennis was moving forward - but then it doesn't happen again, and Ennis only offers when pushed at the last meeting [and after refusing to go somewhere warmer]. 'We had a good time that year' - it wasn't recent.
I agree that Jack's words at Lighting Flats imply that he thought this guy was willing to live with him [whatever he may have been planning to do]. This was no Ennis. He must have gone to the last meeting with that in mind, only to torque things back. What Randall shows him is that what he wants with Ennis IS possible, but that Ennis isn't able to do it - with him.
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I'm with Mouk here - I think she explains precisely why Jack looks so miserable. His dreams are being offerred to him on a plate - by the wrong guy. I did wonder if Jack had other local affairs, but I'm not sure he did. This may have been the first time something like this happened.
Desecra, thank you. This is exactly what I was trying to say but was not successful in conveying.
The cabin is important to Jack because of what it represents - a little step closer to living together. He dreams of living in a cabin with Ennis up at Lighting Flats. 'Don Wroe's cabin' must have seemed like Ennis was moving forward - but then it doesn't happen again, and Ennis only offers when pushed at the last meeting [and after refusing to go somewhere warmer]. 'We had a good time that year' - it wasn't recent.
Yeah, it took me quite a while to understand that, but I guess it makes sense.
I agree that Jack's words at Lighting Flats imply that he thought this guy was willing to live with him [whatever he may have been planning to do]. This was no Ennis. He must have gone to the last meeting with that in mind, only to torque things back. What Randall shows him is that what he wants with Ennis IS possible, but that Ennis isn't able to do it - with him.
Again, this is how I see it too, except for the bit underlined. He knew that Randall was seriously interested in him, even though he did not share these feelings. For him there was only Ennis. I don't think 'he went to he last meeting with that in mind, only to torque things back', though. I think he went to this meeting like to any other, full of love and still with some hope somehow, and that Randall was very, very far from his thoughts; Randall to him was only a better option than Mexico (easier, safer and more dignified) to keep him going between the fishin trips. In a way, Randall helped him bear his frustrations and keep the relationship with Ennis going: perhaps without him Jack would have died earlier, or done something crazy, who knows, he was in a bad way when they met, had been so ever since the divorce.
'Truth is, sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it' says it all. Jack has a hesitation before saying it. This is not something he has ever told Ennis before. But it is all becoming too much for him, he is cracking up and he can no longer hide his pain from Ennis to protect him. It is an SOS (but not a planned one IMO). It is also his way of showing that Randall means absolutely nothing. 'Truth is' : I am lying to you about the rancher's wife, but it does not matter because what happens down in Texas does not matter to me. Only you matter. I am lying to protect you from having to suffer feelings of jealousy that would be unjustified and would make you suffer unnecessarily. But you need to know, because this is becoming too much me that I miss you so much I can hardly stand it. I could see Randall every day, I could live with him, I would still live only for those few days a year spent with you.
On departure day, Jack is pushed over the edge by losing what little time he thought he was going to have with Ennis that year. Again, he hesitates a second before admitting to Mexico because he knows he is really going to hurt Ennis. But he can no longer spare him the pain and jealousy, he has to make Ennis hear some of the truth concerning his sorry life away from him. I am of those who see issues of exclusive love and jealousy more than of shock at admissions to a gay identity in that scene - I think they are too deep in their sorrow and despair, in their frustrated need for each other, to be able to bother with identity matters in that particular instance, as important as those may be to them at other times. In that moment, they are just Jack and Ennis needing each other for being Jack and Ennis. They could be an elephant and a butterfly, it would not matter.
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I agree that Randall may have offered Jack the world even from day 1 but that does mean nothing especially when it comes from the wrong guy, IMO. In fact it can work the other way around, too. If Jack was ever to compare Randall to Ennis the only thing he would come to realise is how inadequate Randall was to meet his emotional needs. I think this is not s'thing that Jack can just turn a blind eye, accept as a fact and go on and i think it clearly shows in the bench scene. I think Randall's inadequatncy would be always present in Jack's mind and heart preventing him from forming with Randall that kind of bond which could lead him to a desicion of soending the rest of his life with him.
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Totally agree, gres. The right thing can't work if it comes from the wrong guy. Jack is bound to compare all the time and get frustrated and this would make any 'proper' relationship with Randall impossible.
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I'm with Mouk here - I think she explains precisely why Jack looks so miserable. His dreams are being offerred to him on a plate - by the wrong guy. I did wonder if Jack had other local affairs, but I'm not sure he did. This may have been the first time something like this happened.
But Lureen said Jack kept his friends' addresses in his head. I guess we are to assume he had more than two friends. She'd know Randall's address - she knows where he works - so I think AP is telling us plainly enough that Jack had other affairs as well as any casual stuff he might have picked up here and there on his business trips.
The film is more inclined to push the pure Jack version, although they left in the line about the addresses. I don't get stressed about him and his sex life. He could have been out shagging every night and it wouldn't alter the fact that Ennis was the only one he wanted and needed.
The first time I saw this scene (and every time after) I've felt that Randall and Jack were both playing the game with one end in view, but when Randall so casually offers him the same stuff he gets from Ennis, Jack is cut to the quick by the understanding that it means nothing to him unless it's with Ennis. Randall's offer has to be along those lines for us to see how struck with longing Jack is. IMHO. An offer of a quickie in the bushes wouldn't have hit him so hard.
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^^^^^^^^^^^^^
What she said.. :) :)
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I don't think we can ever underply the importance of that Don Wroe's cabin gift from Ennis....It was as close as they ever came to a real abode. A couple together in a house-the impact had to have been stunning for Ennis to have avoided it after that-I mean he acknowledges they had a good time-Ennis saying something like that is tantamount to the highest praise imaginable. My manic post on that cabin a few months ago, was done because I really believe it was another turning point-another step forward for Jack, two back for Ennis-like the impact of the Reunion and the divorce debacle-Ennis comes face to face with who/what he really is-and he shrinks from it. And he and Jack both pay the price. I have not doubt at some point during the cabin stay, Jack indicated how much he loved it-without actually saying so, perhaps. I think our clue is Ennis's reaction to "I did once' as bringing them back to the Reunion-so Jack was never so blatant again to actually offer Ennis the chance to move in.
Yes, there is a profound sorrow to Jack in that scene with the rancher-he realizes that this guy is offering him a casual weekend away; how is that different in a effect from the vacays he's had with Ennis? Yes, the emotional intensity with Ennis is there-but Jack must squelch it-he can only say how much he misses him after much alcohol and pot have been consumed. it is almost under duress. So fundamentally, how different is it really?? that is what I think Jack faces with the memory of the DE....He compares the heights of emotional intimacy of that moment on BBM; with the moment of Ennis once again taking leave of him-the same way, after 20 years-hauling his horses (himself) off in their metal trailer (his metal legs carrying him off..) They guy in his own backyard had to be very tempting-fabricated as he is.
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Speaking about cabins as a metaphor for domestic happiness, there is a third one in the SS: Lost Cabin, north of which Alma and Ennis lived. Who's cabin is lost, do you think? Ennis and Alma"s? or Ennis and Jack's?
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I agree that Randall may have offered Jack the world even from day 1 but that does mean nothing especially when it comes from the wrong guy, IMO.
But doesn't that help to explain why Jack looks miserable? I know I tend to think everything's because of Ennis, but what other reason is more likely?
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I agree that Jack's words at Lighting Flats imply that he thought this guy was willing to live with him [whatever he may have been planning to do]. This was no Ennis. He must have gone to the last meeting with that in mind, only to torque things back. What Randall shows him is that what he wants with Ennis IS possible, but that Ennis isn't able to do it - with him.
Again, this is how I see it too, except for the bit underlined. He knew that Randall was seriously interested in him, even though he did not share these feelings. For him there was only Ennis. I don't think 'he went to he last meeting with that in mind, only to torque things back', though.
I don't know - I do get the feeling he has something on his mind at the last meeting, even before the argument. He asks Ennis why he hasn't got married again. He comes out with that confession of love. He almost confesses about the ranch neighbour. He seems to be trying to tell Ennis something when he talks about his son [in the book]. There's something bothering him. In the book, it's only a few months since he met Randall. In the film, it's a few years, but it may have been only recently that Randall showed he was up for the cow and calf operation. That must have got Jack thinking again - his dream was possible - he just had to find the way to get Ennis to do it, without being caught again. I think that's what spurs him on to do those things above - he's on edge, he's waiting for that sign from Ennis. What is it that makes him say these things, after waiting 16 years? It might have nothing to do with Randall, but we're not given any other triggers.
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I'm with Mouk here - I think she explains precisely why Jack looks so miserable. His dreams are being offerred to him on a plate - by the wrong guy. I did wonder if Jack had other local affairs, but I'm not sure he did. This may have been the first time something like this happened.
But Lureen said Jack kept his friends' addresses in his head. I guess we are to assume he had more than two friends. She'd know Randall's address - she knows where he works - so I think AP is telling us plainly enough that Jack had other affairs as well as any casual stuff he might have picked up here and there on his business trips.
The film is more inclined to push the pure Jack version, although they left in the line about the addresses. I don't get stressed about him and his sex life. He could have been out shagging every night and it wouldn't alter the fact that Ennis was the only one he wanted and needed.
The first time I saw this scene (and every time after) I've felt that Randall and Jack were both playing the game with one end in view, but when Randall so casually offers him the same stuff he gets from Ennis, Jack is cut to the quick by the understanding that it means nothing to him unless it's with Ennis. Randall's offer has to be along those lines for us to see how struck with longing Jack is. IMHO. An offer of a quickie in the bushes wouldn't have hit him so hard.
Yes, I think there's a difference between book and film there. In the book, he looks like he doesn't have to pay on the rodeo circuit [he had no money, but was still riding more than bulls], and I assumed there were more affairs. But he seems to need the money later on - 'ways to spend it'. Could be gifts for lovers, or he could be paying for it. There are no hints of serious affairs before the last meeting - maybe just because the question doesn't come up. But I think that's the first time he's mentioned an ongoing affair [even though he claims it's a woman] - so maybe there was nothing long-term before. In that case, it's the first time someone else has gone that far with him.
In the film, its' different - it's suggested that he can't get any sex without paying, before or after the reunion. I think Randall is supposed to be the first offer of that magnitude - or maybe it's just the first time something has been suggested which is so close to what he's got with Ennis.
The friend's addresses - they could have been more casual - it's not clear. Did he go to visit him? Were there phone calls from men? Lureen just seems to let us know that he had 'friends' that she didn't know - I think it's pretty obvious that these were lovers, but it's not clear how serious.
I agree that it's the similarity to what he's got with Ennis that's important there. It's specifically fishing trips in a cabin, drinking whisky.
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I agree that Jack's words at Lighting Flats imply that he thought this guy was willing to live with him [whatever he may have been planning to do]. This was no Ennis. He must have gone to the last meeting with that in mind, only to torque things back. What Randall shows him is that what he wants with Ennis IS possible, but that Ennis isn't able to do it - with him.
Again, this is how I see it too, except for the bit underlined. He knew that Randall was seriously interested in him, even though he did not share these feelings. For him there was only Ennis. I don't think 'he went to he last meeting with that in mind, only to torque things back', though.
I don't know - I do get the feeling he has something on his mind at the last meeting, even before the argument. He asks Ennis why he hasn't got married again. He comes out with that confession of love. He almost confesses about the ranch neighbour. He seems to be trying to tell Ennis something when he talks about his son [in the book]. There's something bothering him. In the book, it's only a few months since he met Randall. In the film, it's a few years, but it may have been only recently that Randall showed he was up for the cow and calf operation. That must have got Jack thinking again - his dream was possible - he just had to find the way to get Ennis to do it, without being caught again. I think that's what spurs him on to do those things above - he's on edge, he's waiting for that sign from Ennis. What is it that makes him say these things, after waiting 16 years? It might have nothing to do with Randall, but we're not given any other triggers.
I misunderstood you. I thought you meant he had come to that meeting with the idea of splitting with Ennis in order to be with Randall! Brrrr!
It looks like Jack has reached a time of his life when he is more lonely than ever: the marriage could be done over the phone (film), he has no say over his own son's education (SS). Effectively he has no family, nothing to keep him down in Texas, except perhaps for Randall, who means nothing to him. The time that Randall gives him so willingly (presumably), his wish to live with Jack (again, presumably) only make Jack more aware of what he has been missing out by not being able to be with Ennis. So yes, perhaps he did come to this meeting with the intention of finding out if Ennis might finally be willing to make a step further. He has been on his own for a long time, his daughters are almost grown, he really is free and he must be lonely too.
Only to find out that Ennis is fixin to give him less, not more :'(
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I agree that Randall may have offered Jack the world even from day 1 but that does mean nothing especially when it comes from the wrong guy, IMO.
But doesn't that help to explain why Jack looks miserable? I know I tend to think everything's because of Ennis, but what other reason is more likely?
That explains him being sad. I didn't say otherwise. But that doesn't mean that Jack wants to take the offer. Many of us might have found ourselves in the position of being offered the world by s'one who did it hecause that other person might even have felt for us that we are the love of his/her life but that being offered the world doesn't mean that we want and will take it....you don't want the world if it comes from the wrong person....Jack is being reminded of what he wants for him and Ennis and at the same how little Randall or any Randall could give him and help the situation, to stop the desperation he feels.
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If he didn't take up the offer in the end, though - who is the 'rancher's wife?'. Who is the guy he talks about at Lightning Flats? I admit I have been toying with the idea that it ISN'T Randall. Randall may have been the first such offer, but by the time of the last meeting it's someone else. I suppose if we're meant to think he turned Randall down, it's more about Randall not measuring up, as you say, rather than about him thinking about Ennis... and maybe he could have got a better offer later on. But I think it's most likely it's the same guy - or at least that Randall is meant to be similar to the 'ranch neighbour'. And I don't think there were that many opportunities to meet men like that.
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I didn't mean to say that it wasn't Randall. What i said is that Randall might have offered everything Jack had dreamed of for Ennis and himself but that doesn't mean anything to Jack, emotionally. Everything Randall might be prepared and want and could give Jack leads painfully to the one and only conclusion in Jack's mind and heart, that Randall is the wrong person-it comes from the wrong person and so it is not what Jack wanted. I for sure don't see in the bench scene a Jack who would consider to take on Randall's offer, the fishing trips and the cabin. He looks so sad because he can't have with Ennis the living together, not because Randall had s'thing better than Ennis to offer. At that time Jack has a DE from Ennis and a proposition for fishing trips from Randall and even at the last meeting he has an Ennis brought on his knees upon hearing Jack's wish. Can Randall and everything that might have passed btw them be compared to Ennis and his reactions and collapse and the 20 years of them being together and despite that Randall came out to be the one who *wins* Jack at the end? I doubt. As for what went on at LF you know what my opinion is from the Q/NQ thread ;D
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Speaking about cabins as a metaphor for domestic happiness, there is a third one in the SS: Lost Cabin, north of which Alma and Ennis lived. Who's cabin is lost, do you think? Ennis and Alma"s? or Ennis and Jack's?
I don't know - I'd guess that it's the lost opportunity - I've tried to imagine what would have happened if it wasn't for the swift end to the summer and the punch - could they have gone up to LF? Could they have lived in a cabin together and Ennis never had to face up to their sexuality? I'm still not sure - but maybe that's the cabin that was lost. Ennis moves north of it.
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DES, Something you said about Jack and his sadness, asking why Ennis didn't marry again made me think about the hotel scene. Ennis gives the same type of answer in both situations. After the marriage comment, he finally ends with an I don't know just like in the motel when Jack asks "what about you" in reference to did Ennis think they would get together again. Jack seems to be reaching for answers, a declaration of love, and Ennis can't seem to express it but instead comes out with "I don't know". It seems Ennis is on the brink of saying something and he just can't or won't express it. Jack so clearly needs reinforcement of Ennis's love and I think that is what Jack was seeking especially with the marriage comment. I think Jack wants Ennis to admit what is true that he doesn't marry again because he is in love with Jack and only Jack.
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Sunshine you hit right on. He so wants Ennis to acknowledge with words what he knows in his heart. They say you don't have to have words to commuicate and understand , but they sure are nice to hear. jwm
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I was hit with this really strong feeling of my God how did Ennis ever except this. That is why I think he reacted so strongly in the alley. How could this be happening to him. He didn't like men. He was suppose not like men that liked men. So how in the hell is he going to live with this and carry on as a normal married man, who likes woman. It must of seemed so surreal to him after the inial shock wore off. He must of been temperaryaly insane, yea thats the ticket.
I watched a movie the other night where a man got raped, I know Ennis didn't get raped or raped Jack but it destroyed his whole life, he thought he must be gay, because he got an erection. He was horrified. So for Ennis to come full circle and deal with this he must of gone through his own private hell. Having to face that you are different, and he is now looking at Earl when he looks in the mirror. Now that would be hard for a very well adjusted individual, never mind someone like Ennis.
I have been hard on Ennis for not excepting Jack and himself for what they were and what they meant to each other, but in all fairness Ennis was fighting a battle that Jack never did. Jack never seemed to be troubled or ashamed of who he was and who he loved. Lucky him. Ennis on the other hand tried to fight it everyday. I finally opened my eyes to what Ennis was going through I have always focused on poor Jack, and what he was denied, but Ennis wanted and needed him, he just wouldn't allow himself to except it and therefore fought this battle constintanly. jwm I still have a hard time with the fact that he wouldn't even try to stop fighting.
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that's the problem,too,.jwm. We are creatures of habit, we get cozy in our rationales and denials-that is why Ennis is so devastated by 'I wish I knew how to quit you'-he has not considered it a possibility. Jack has always responded to the leash tug....
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Hello: I've never commented on this thread before. I have a question about something in the "Bettermost Beans" scene early on in the film. It's nothing "important," but it is a curiosity...at least to me.
At about the same time we see the two cans of beans on the grill, we see the cast-iron skillet where Ennis is cooking what appear to be fried potatoes. In amongst the potatoes is a "black ball"...what looks almost like a shiny, little black rubber ball.
Anyone know or care to guess - what it is? Pardon me if this is old news to you experts. I pointed the black ball out to a woman friend the other night as we watched the movie on her giant TV - she has seen BBM well over a hundred times - and she said that she had never noticed it before.
I'll also ask this question at the "Scenes on the Mountain" thread.
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I figured it was a burnt potato.........
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Jeff,
The forum asks that we not make the same post on multiple threads (unless one of the two is the General Discussion thread).
Thanks,
Sandy
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The fact that the unknown and forbidden feelings that these two have going on inside them have to be the most scarest feelings of all. The mere thought of what Ennis is feeling or thinking must be so confusing. His utmost thoughts no matter what he is doing or who he is with somehow always comes back to Jack. He thinks of him at the times when he should be consintrating on his wife, his job. He thinks of him when he is so dead tired sitting on the side of his and Alma's bed. Head in hand he can't help himself from remembering a time when he was so happy, so content and felt so alive. He had been dead tired many times up on BB but it was a feeling of pure excitement and worth it. He worked hard and played even harder but it was a good feeling. One that he would give anything to feel like that again, here with Alma. It would be a lot easier if he could feel like that with his wife and put Jack out of his mind and his heart and his life.
Jack also felt the power of missing someone, something that was a thousand miles away. A place where the fantasy had begun. The person that he craved and could still feel and smell as if he was right here, the memories of Ennis were as Strong now as they were each time he waited for him to come down the mountain.
Watching how his life has played out is something that he never really tried for. He met Lureen and again it was more out of necessity for him to live and live well and sure this would surfice for as long as need be. It saves him from going out looking for trouble. It certainly doesn't make him missing Ennis any easier or any end to this nagging feeling of unsettled business.
Him standing there looking at Lureen's family and how they are fawning over the baby, again even that didn't make him feel any different toward his wife or his life. He loved his son sure but he again felt as an outsider. His first thought was shit I need to see Ennis, I need to feel him to hold him.
So many times in their lives during that four years a lot of red flags went up and that it would be better for everyone involved to stay as they were, family men with responsibilities and a life after BB. They both knew that what happened up there should stay up on BB. They knew that there was no life for them in the real world, they knew that things were different. They were much more complicated now, too many obstacles in their path. You know that this is something they thought about. They had to, this is one of the defense mechanisms they used to keep their distance.
The fact that they both knew that what they had up on BB was special and what they would be forced to live with off it was something that neither of them probably wanted. This bond this THING was more powerful than either of them could have known even in their wildest wet dreams.
The pull of the mountain and what it stood for was stronger than both of them and they were destine to meet again. Neither of them knew when or where they only knew the Why. jwm
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The scene with Junior in the truck when she asked to move with him, was basically the same things he said to Jack.
He is not set up for that, his job keeps him out a lot. I am not saying I wouldn't want to but. Junior does what everyone else in his life does when he pretty well shoots their hopes down the tube. She smiles but her eyes and her voice do not corespond with what she is saying. The hurt and the disappointment she feels right then is the same as what Jack feels everytime Ennis pulls that same line on him. I don't think Ennis is capable of doing anything more than what he is doing. He doesn't have time or the inclination to include or let anyone intrude in or on his space. He is set in his ways and the way things are going are about all he can handle. He can't or won't look to the future, he is living for today and that is it.
The fact that people want to live with him is a scary thought to him. He likes his own company I think and he feels in control when alone. To Ennis where Junior lives now and his scheduled times to see her suits him just fine. The same with Jack. His routine with him again is suitable for him and he enjoys his time with him as he does with his kids. But the scheduled times only. The rest is his time and his alone.
The last time he spoke to Junior again was reminiscent of the last time he spoke to Jack. He again had the same look the same despair staring back at him. That is why Jack's memory came flooding back full force, when he seen and heard himself tell Junior he was busy and couldn't be there. The sadness that came over him was like a weight on him, he knew he couldn't do it again. He swallowed hard and thought wow this is deja and he couldn't do it. He couldn't give Jack what he hoped but he could make up for it by giving Junior this one thing she so wanted from him.
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Yes, Jwm, exactly, I think that is clearly the point of the scene....he lets down everyone, it seems. How sad.
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Oh yes, now I remember. Jack tells Ennis that sometimes he misses him so much he can hardly stand it and then Ennis says nothing. That made me mad at Ennis! Is that the correct scene?
Sunshine you hit right on. He so wants Ennis to acknowledge with words what he knows in his heart. They say you don't have to have words to commuicate and understand , but they sure are nice to hear. jwm
Odd. I always always thought Ennis did reply, with body language and a look. An Ennis reply.
But this time it was not enough.
Always wanting things to go on as they had when he damned well knew it was killing them both, always thinking 'Jack Knows' when a word would have meant so much.
He replied, like Ennis. But this time....not enough.
As a male, half the time I wish PEOPLE WOULD SIMPLY SHUT UP AND know, BUT THEY DON'T. AND THEY NEED TO KNOW, SO I TELL MY WIFE I LOVE YOU EVERY SINGLE DAY AND MEAN IT.
Why this dumb bastard couldn't figure it out after 20 years is --or should be--beyond me but unfortunately it isn't. It took ME THIRTY YEARS. lol
Even Annie Proulx's eyes popped when I told her 30 years...... lol
Men can be plain dumb
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Odd. I always always thought Ennis did reply, with body language and a look. An Ennis reply.
But this time it was not enough.
Always wanting things to go on as they had when he damned well knew it was killing them both, always thinking 'Jack Knows' when a word would have meant so much.
He replied, like Ennis. But this time....not enough.
As a male, half the time I wish PEOPLE WOULD SIMPLY SHUT UP AND know, BUT THEY DON'T. AND THEY NEED TO KNOW, SO I TELL MY WIFE I LOVE YOU EVERY SINGLE DAY AND MEAN IT.
Why this dumb bastard couldn't figure it out after 20 years is --or should be--beyond me but unfortunately it isn't. It took ME THIRTY YEARS. lol
Even Annie Proulx's eyes popped when I told her 30 years...... lol
Men can be plain dumb
Lol BB_1, next thing we'll know is that AP has written a story about you!!
Agree with Ennis's look and body language: he looks very moved, and full of love, and grateful for Jack's love and Jack's admission to loving him so much. He also looks in great pain: knowing that he misses Jack just as badly but incapable of saying it trapped as he is in his inability to express feelings, and the terrible guilt, knowing he will have to break the news about November sooner or later. Jack's confession probably contributed to him waiting till the very very last minute before saying it.
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I have been thinking about the pup tent smelling like cat piss or worse. This is the tent where they follow Aguirre's rules, but it stinks because Aguirre's rules are against the rules of the higher order (Fish and Game) and he has no right to impose those rules on them. Thing is, they should both be in the camp together. That's where they belong, according to both Fish and Game and the rule of nature which has made them fall in love.
Sounds to me like Aguirre's rules twisting Fish and Game rules represent society's rules twisting nature's rules which are the real rules. And people should be allowed to follow nature's rules, not rules twisted by society.
Jack's father tried to force him to act against his nature. Not being skilled enough to open buttons fast enough, not being tall enough to aim properly into the bowl is the nature of being a very young boy. You can't change that. No punishment by old Twist was going to turn this small child miraculously into an older child.
Could this painful scene also show that Jack's nature was being gay, and nothing could be done about it? At the risk of being very crude, could we see a parallel between the bowl and the 'wet gap'? That Jack was by nature aiming for a target other than the one intended by society (bowls are a human invention) and therefore transgressing social rules?
Jack thought his father was killing him. Effectively, he was being Earl in this scene. But he survived it. And this made him stronger, not afraid of going for what he wanted and breaking rules if he had to, not afraid of risks and punishments.
As for Ennis, he was shown Earl who did not survive. Instead of becoming stronger he was traumatised and became fearful. He repressed his nature till impulses became so strong that they overtook him in FNIT. But on the whole, Ennis chose the rules of Aguirre and his father over the superior rules of nature. And that killed Jack.
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Yes, I think those two 'scenes' are so important. As you say, Jack survived - Ennis, in a sense, didn't. Another more basic detail - Jack is left with a mutilated cock - Ennis is left with none at all [just bloody pulp].
Jack already knows that they should be in camp together, by rights. [I've just answered your post over on the other thread. I don't think that Jack has the feeling of wrongness about their sexuality that Ennis does. Ennis doesn't pick up on the rights and wrongs of it - he doesn't agree with Jack. He keeps repeating that he 'wouldn't mind'. He says that four times - why do you think that is? Whatever, it means, he sides with Aguirre/fathers/society, as you say. I don't know if it's significant, but he takes the watch with him - the watch which should be with the camp tender.
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Yes, he sides with his 'oppressors' instead of standing up for his rights, as Jack does. He is long-sighted, does not see the rights nature gave him, rght there, inside him; he sees the rights that society gives or denies him, although those are articial rights, distant from his nature.
The watch: Aguirre/society gave him this short time on the mountain where he can go by nature's rules rather than those of society.
'I wouldn't mind being up there': he can't break the rules by living with Jack in the camp but he tries to please Jack (give him a more comfortable life) even if it is at the expense of his own comfort (but he does not mind too much because he likes working with animals), and at the same time he makes sure that Aguirre's rules are not broken (even though over time he will spend more and more time away from the sheep)
This is echoed in their 16 years arrangement: he can't break the rules totally by living with Jack in the C&C operation but he tries to please Jack by keeping the relationship going at the expense of his own comfort (consequences on jobs and family) but he doesn' mind too much because he wants to see Jack, and at the same time he makes sure that society's rules are not broken except during their fishin trips.
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The tent that smells like cat piss or worse must be a reminder of his humiliation at his father's hands 9in a manner of speaking). Being covered by your father's urine has to have an effect. The pup tent represents Jack being pissed on by a society which expects him to conform.
The connection between the "wet gap" and the toilet bowl is clear to me also. It's why Ennis finally urintaes in the sink, the wrong place, just as he chose - however conflicted he might have been - to ejaculate in Jack. It's also his little rebellion on Jack's behalf. Jack was beaten for not getting to the toilet so Ennis will piss where he damn well chooses. In the privacy of his own trailer, of course.
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How did you figure that connection between the cat piss, the sink and the toilet??? I thought I was crazy and now here it is, from someone else!!
It wasn't until I'd taken it apart word for word the 2nd or 3rd time and had this "flash" that I started thinking, this is obvious, so obvious, can I possibly be right about it?
I was embaressed to bring it up. OR ask. And now here it is, stated with authority and an elegant simplicity.....
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I think it was all discussed on S&I maybe around October. There is an ongoing theme of "misuse" of penis, by both urinating and ejaculating "incorrectly", and the consequences of it.
The connection with the pup tent just hit me like a bomb one day. Jack hates the pup tent and those predators who keep him up at night and so when Ennis shoots the coyote and takes away the need for Jack to experience the pup tent he grows enormously in Jack's eyes. Ennis becomes the Alpha Male, replacing the father.
The father is then symbolically castrated b y Mrs T with her sharp serrated instrument. Those apple-sized balls are rfemoved.
Incidentally, if you want an example of the connectuon between urination and ejaculation, check out the story of Orion the hunter who is created when his father is told to urinate on a cowhide and thus Orion (urine) is created.
When we get that book sorted, all this will hopefully be drawn together.
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How did you figure that connection between the cat piss, the sink and the toilet??? I thought I was crazy and now here it is, from someone else!!
It wasn't until I'd taken it apart word for word the 2nd or 3rd time and had this "flash" that I started thinking, this is obvious, so obvious, can I possibly be right about it?
I was embaressed to bring it up. OR ask. And now here it is, stated with authority and an elegant simplicity.....
"where ya been?"...mini's been spouting that awhile now.....I love it myself; it gives legs to Jack's whining, not wanting to be up in the urine-smelling tent or worse. What smells worse than animal piss? well people piss, of course.....You two great minds apparently think alike. scary... ;D ;D :-* :)
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My own fault Jo, hadn't been in the thread since april.
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My own fault Jo, hadn't been in the thread since april.
This forum is the official, no fault zone...and I meant it about your two great minds thinking a like-you both laugh pretty hard, too.... :D
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I have always wondered why the only times you see Jack crying or almost is when he is looking at Ennis from His rear view mirror. Leaving the trailer after the summer, he looks like a wounded puppy and has no clue where or what is going to happen to him. He tries to carry on with his rodeo and his sad attempts at finding comfort with any other man. He knows that Ennis already has a plan his life is already mapped out for him. Jack is alone and really has no prospects of any kind job or love life. He fumbles his way around and his new life kind of falls in his lap. He now has the same as Ennis a wife a child yet he still can't stop thinking of him.
The next time you see him crying is leaving Ennis at the divorce fiasco. He cried and kind of put his hand to his mouth to stop from screaming. Wanting to scream what in the hell does he want from me. What does he expect from me and how does he expect me to live like this.
It seems when he is forced to leave Ennis, he just can't stand it. He has watched Ennis fade away before when he has to leave Jack. He only breaks when he is doing the leaving. When Ennis pushes him away and he has no choice, Ennis's choice not his. That is what IMO is what makes Jack do such dangerous things, trying to fill his emptiness with other men.
When he watches Ennis leave after the last scene, after seeing Ennis crack and cry you would think that would have brought a man like Jack to tears, but no, not a tear. No tears even after remembering his most sacred moment DE. I would have been balling like a baby after that, remembering something so beautiful and total happiness and to be brought out that memory with the reality of the man you have loved and fought so hard to make yours is now driving away with nothing changed nothing solved. No closure, no closer to making that pig headed son of a horses bitch budge. What more could he do, he knows now there is absolutely nothing.
jwm
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That's interesting, jwm - about the different departures.
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QUOTE FROM JWM
When he watches Ennis leave after the last scene, after seeing Ennis crack and cry you would think that would have brought a man like Jack to tears, but no, not a tear. No tears even after remembering his most sacred moment DE. I would have been balling like a baby after that, remembering something so beautiful and total happiness and to be brought out that memory with the reality of the man you have loved and fought so hard to make yours is now driving away with nothing changed nothing solved. No closure, no closer to making that pig headed son of a horses bitch budge. What more could he do, he knows now there is absolutely nothing.
jwm
Jwm, I don't think we really need tears at this point. Jack has an expression of immense sorrow and pain. The point gets across without the waterworks so to speak. Great acting by Jake! ;)
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I agree but it just seems to take a lot of willpower for tears not come his life has just flashed before him and it is not a pretty picture. He is such a softy and yet nothing.
It seems to me that each time Jack does cry or almost to tears are the times when he thinks things are going to be different. He leaves feeling cheated and shocked almost. He built up his hopes and he actually felt that things were going to start looking up. On the mountain he IMO thought it was not going to end there. That is why he reacted so differently than Ennis.
The divorce episode showed Jack that again his hopes were for naught. He again was left to feel like he had been kicked in the gut.
I believe that those times Jack honestly was not prepared for the rejection. The rest of the times when they parted he was not surprised by them, he knew they were not any closer to what he had hoped so he was able to leave it the way it was, he had no big expatiation's so he was not let down.
Even the last time he didn't expect anything different, that kind of came out of the blue, and again no tears from him. He was not surprised or shocked he was just plain hurt and discouraged but not surprised by the outcome.
jwm
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Yes - what they'd said was 'no news'.
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I think jwm is right-Jack has become, via Ennis, even more 'inurred to the stoic life'-he did not anticiapte this is how he'd live out the remainder of his life, however, once he met Ennis..but as AP says, there is often a 'steep cost' to long term relationships...we may stay in them for various reasons, but we sometimes don't come out looking as purty as we did going in...The point is between him and Ennis, things have gone south, even if they themselves have not. And the reason for this one is very, very special-a man catches himself doing something the rest of society deems wrong-he continues to do it, but never admits that that is what he is doing-even to the man with whom he is doing it. It is an unusual, but not unique, situation-I think of other stories about forbidden love; there always comes that point where one character turns on the other, ie, 'you made me like this' or 'we can never be happy, don't you see?' It is almost required, in order to show the impact inside the couple.
J&E are an anatomy lesson, IMO, in how this sort of stress unravels two people; there is a requirement that at least one surely will suffer more than the other, because balance must be maintained-if there is constant non-positive conflict, eventually, it will unravel. Both J&E worked hard for Ennis's sense of balance, which allowed things to continue. Jack helped Ennis and Ennis helped Ennis-who was helping Jack? and don't say Randall (spit on ground icon..).
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Hello gals and guys, I think you have made some excellent points about Jack. I too believe that he lost his vigor, joy, love for life as he got older and his relationship with Ennis stayed stagnant. At the end,he is definitely not the spontaneous, carefree soul we met at the beginning. As others have said, Jack was dying a slow emotional death. He grew up a lot and realized that his dreaming wasn't coming to fruition. Jack gave so much to Ennis that his emotional cup was just about empty and as you all have pointed out Jack doesn't have anyone to give him a refill. Ennis did do all the taking and Jack was an idealist and thought he could rescue Ennis. We can't rescue other people especially if they don't want to be as in the case of Ennis. I like that it was pointed out by Mini that Jack and Ennis had different interpretations about "ride it as long as we can" I never considered that they could have had differing ideas about that conversation. I guess I took it the way Ennis meant it and thought the boys were mutual on that aspect. Although, Jack's pain and sorrow were obvious at the outcome of that conversation. After spending some wonderful intimate time with Ennis, Jack learns again that he will be back to waiting like he did after the time on BBM. That had to have been a crushing blow.
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How did you figure that connection between the cat piss, the sink and the toilet??? I thought I was crazy and now here it is, from someone else!!
It wasn't until I'd taken it apart word for word the 2nd or 3rd time and had this "flash" that I started thinking, this is obvious, so obvious, can I possibly be right about it?
I was embaressed to bring it up. OR ask. And now here it is, stated with authority and an elegant simplicity.....
"where ya been?"...mini's been spouting that awhile now.....I love it myself; it gives legs to Jack's whining, not wanting to be up in the urine-smelling tent or worse. What smells worse than animal piss? well people piss, of course.....You two great minds apparently think alike. scary... ;D ;D :-* :)
Mini's been spouting cat piss? What an attractive image you conjure up.
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Mini, LOL LOL!! :D Have you always been able to do that Mini or is that a newly acquired trait? LOL
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How did you figure that connection between the cat piss, the sink and the toilet??? I thought I was crazy and now here it is, from someone else!!
It wasn't until I'd taken it apart word for word the 2nd or 3rd time and had this "flash" that I started thinking, this is obvious, so obvious, can I possibly be right about it?
I was embaressed to bring it up. OR ask. And now here it is, stated with authority and an elegant simplicity.....
"where ya been?"...mini's been spouting that awhile now.....I love it myself; it gives legs to Jack's whining, not wanting to be up in the urine-smelling tent or worse. What smells worse than animal piss? well people piss, of course.....You two great minds apparently think alike. scary... ;D ;D :-* :)
Mini's been spouting cat piss? What an attractive image you conjure up.
You said it, not me....about the cat piss, I mean.... ;D
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CSI, you are starting to sound like Lureen. Maybe that was your intention. LOL :D
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I was surprised in the hug that Ennis gave Jack at the divorce scene, especially with the girls in the truck. That was so out of character for Ennis. It seems funny that both hugs were at Ennis's homes, one with his wife upstairs and the towns people around, and the second was with his girls right there, and the road not far away, again anyone could have seen them. It is like Ennis hugs first then looks around once he realizes what he has just done. It does show though that Ennis really can't control himself when Jack first comes close to him.
jwm
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I was surprised in the hug that Ennis gave Jack at the divorce scene, especially with the girls in the truck. That was so out of character for Ennis. It seems funny that both hugs were at Ennis's homes, one with his wife upstairs and the towns people around, and the second was with his girls right there, and the road not far away, again anyone could have seen them. It is like Ennis hugs first then looks around once he realizes what he has just done. It does show though that Ennis really can't control himself when Jack first comes close to him.
jwm
Oh for sure, Ennis seems at a loss for the first few moments seeing Jack after many months.
He is delighted. You can see it on his face before he shuts down.
I love that hug. It shows me that Ennis has moments when he can forget everything
but Jack. Too bad they're only very brief moments. Seconds, really, I suppose.
And too bad he can't allow himself to give in to his initial feelings.
Think how much different the story would have been...
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In the thanksgiving scene with Alma and Ennis and he finds out she knows. I found it weird that when Alma asked him "do still go fishing with Jack Twist ? He said not often. I wondered why he would say that. He had been going fishing with Jack for years while he was still married to her. So why deny it now, or had he cut back his time with Jack, starting way back then?
The way she was talking was like she didn't know for sure about him and Jack. Was she setting him up to hit him with the big one? Her going on about not catching fish and shit, rubbing it a little each time, revenge is sweet when served cold so they say. Or did she honestly not know for sure about what was going on up there. No she had to have known, the seeing them, feeling the lack of interest in Ennis when with her, and also the way she cried and that sad wave Like she was waving goodbye forever. Saying goodbye to the Ennis she loved and married. That Ennis is gone and in it's place was this stranger to her.
I do believe though she got the first and the last punch in for sure.
jwm
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Ennis's answer to the question in the story is "Some". I think in both film and story he simply wants to downplay it. He's being very wary. He lived with Alma long enough that he'd maybe guess what she was up to. I've no doubt she was working up to the little scene. She'd stewed about him and Jack for a long time.
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Marian, I simply don't think she would have said anything if that idiot Ennis hadn't uttered two words: "Once Burned..."
It's as if he went out of his way cause an explosion!
She had seen them, she had known, she had suffered the entire marriage, she had been deprived of ..e.verything. And then he had the gall to say 'Once Burned?' As if SHE had been at fault?
I'm surprised she didn't lop his pecker off with that electric carving knife, it pushed her over the edge to have him say that.
IMO.
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No, I really disagree. She wasn't planning a big blow-up but I'm convinced (as a woman) that she had picked her time and place. Kids around, husband in next room, in her own kitchen, and pregnant. She had Ennis cornered and she moved in deliberately.
What she hadn't planned on was the depth of her own reaction and the ferocity of Ennis's.
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yeah, she buried alot...so in a safety zone, where she probably sensed he might be more contained, she confronts him-and as happens, it escalated. But no pregnant women in her right mind is going to delieberately put herself in danger...she really was not anticipating his response, because she'd never confronted him before-'no real trouble' is how AP describes the widening waters of the marriage..Again, Mr Movie Version has influenced us all...they have that big 'goddammit, Alma' blow up in front of the kids...I doubt that happened. Alma had enough sense to know, in that time and place, who was in charge in her marriage; the break up is a function of her growing up and them growing apart, over a number of things, Jack front and center....but not to do, I don't think, with any confrontations that would make clear to her, not to ever press the Jack button....She really didn't know. I think she saw an opportunity to get the truth out, to confront him, and get her issues off her chest. Bad timing, though....it ruined the first holiday with the girls, and set Ennis spinning off.....he gets in that fight, and declines to see his girls for awhile..if anyone doesn't think he is still in denial, look how he reacts...
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No, I really disagree. She wasn't planning a big blow-up but I'm convinced (as a woman) that she had picked her time and place. Kids around, husband in next room, in her own kitchen, and pregnant. She had Ennis cornered and she moved in deliberately.
What she hadn't planned on was the depth of her own reaction and the ferocity of Ennis's.
I can both agree and accept this marian. Sometimes I explain myself very badly. Alma probably did intent to have some sort of 'clearing of the air' with her ex at that dinner, it is logical, the setting was right, it was on her terms in her home with her new husband in the next room....When I said she wouldn't have said anything I mean she wouldn't have said anything in the way she actually DID say it.
But I really think the words 'Once Burned' were a disaster on Ennis' part. Once he said THAT it was all over. I can't think of anything he might have non-chalantly said that might have set her off so badly as THAT did--look at how her body and --yes--her plate language show an immediate reaction. The only worse thing he could have done might be to.... compare her rear end most unfavourably with Jack's lolol.
As it was he was lucky she didn't have that carving knife...an exaggeration, true, but it illustrates a point.
I think we are pretty close in interpretations here. However, you are much clearer then I am.
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The time had come to say goodbye. The boys were not at all sure on how to do that. The fact that Ennis feels stupid and uncomfortable about hitting Jack, and really had no explanation for it made this parting even more difficult and awkward. Jack never mentioned it and so this gave Ennis a temporary repreeve.
The way that the job and their lives had come to an abrupt halt, it came out of nowhere really gave them a jolt. A hard core reality check and I don't think either of them ever really thought about when not if that time would come. They were thrown together by fate and now fate was ripping them apart. That summer has changed them and they have seen a glimpse of just how easy it was to be happy. They now had to pretend even as early as the first goodbye how to down play this relationship. Either of them could put words to what happened up on the mountain,I doubt if either of them really wanted to try. They sucked it up just as society expected them to and walked away.
Ennis while watching that truck fade and walking toward the life he had planned, he felt like something was wrong. He felt like something was missing, not that dam shirt but something else, something he couldn't quite put his finger on. He only knew that there was a nagging feeling in his gut, like there was some unfinished business. When he could no longer see the silhouette of Jack and the truck he had to stop and puke. His his heart was in his throat. He didn't know what or why this was happening to him, he only knew it was unexpected, unwanted and defiantly terrifying.
Ennis felt vulnerable and all of a sudden alone. Jack had only been gone maybe 5 minutes and already he was felt a loss.Like he was not whole. He felt like he was losing his ability of denyability and that he could not suppress this knot in his heart and put a lid on his unwarranted anger and loathing of himself and what he felt. He had to get his shit together and put what he felt and what he had done in perspective and get the hell up off his knees and go home to Alma. He had to forget Jack and BB and everything that happened up there. What happened up on BB stays up on Brokeback. He knew that only himself and Jack knew exactly what had happened up there. This will be his and Jack's secret and never to be seen or thought of again. He knew that he would not go up there again, it was too risky and dangerous to his sanity and his life. He had to put everything about Jack Twist and how the two of them threw caution to the wind and let nature take its course,and put it as far back in his mind as possible. Right here , right now is real life, he no longer has the cover of BB and acting on instinct. He now had to own up to what had to be done and do it. He knew he was survivor and he always prided himself in that ability and so far it has not been all that hard, so he will take what he knows best and run with it.
Jack drives away not having any idea that Ennis is having second and third thoughts about them, and how he was going to put it all out his heart, head and life. Jack was so broken hearted because I really believe that Jack thought they would still see each other. He never let himself face the thought of that this could be their time together. He was so lost and afraid. He didn't know what to do now. He had given his heart to this man not on purpose but all the same it was a fact. He was left with this, not even given a choice. He was in this alone and now he had to try and figure out how he was going to get this cowboy out of his heart and his head. This was not something he could have even dreamed in his wildest dreams of happening. To find the one, his soul mate, his one and only, and to just let him walk away without a fight. Without even the chance to have one last night or kiss or even a hug. He was devastated and hollow, he would never accept that this was it, that this is all there is. He will one day see this man again and that time will be differnet. He only has to find a way to deal here and now, until that time comes.
jwm
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Here's a question, prompted by fofol a while ago: How in the world did Randall get his job? The ranch foreman is a key to the successful operation of the ranch. He is the most important employee on the ranch. Among other things, he needs to be a bit of a mechanic (acc. to The Cowboy Way), which Randall was not. Ranchers don't hire guys without a lot of ranching experience for that job, nor guys whom they don't know personally or by reputation. According to LaShawn, the two of them were surprised to find out what ranch life was really like (as I recall) -- so Randall was a newbie. Why did Roy Taylor hire somebody like that? It don't make sense. Or does it? Somebody explain.
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No idea, but I assumed Randall was in his '30s, so maybe had quite a bit of experience before college. He didn't get the foreman's job until after he'd moved, which makes me wonder why he moved if it wasn't for that job. Other reasons, perhaps?
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Roy Taylor hired Randall because he'd heard he was a good shag.
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Didn't LaShawn say "We thought ranching was al big hats and Marlboros," or something like that? As if they were new to the life. And Randall had not taken the best truck to town -- poor judgement.
I'll have to ask McMurtry when I see him!
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I have seen in one of the other threads that Ennis didn't really want it to be a permanent goodbye. I agree completely. When Jack said I might be back,if the army don't get me.That look with the eyebrow, of what do you have to say to that. Hoping Ennis would say oh ok see you then. Instead he got nothing, except see you around then. To me it was a voice with a little ok at the end, like until then.
He had to know what he was heaving about. He was crying and heaving and he was really pissed at himself for doing so. He punched the wall like shit what do I do now, what in the hell am I doing. Even when the cowboy walked by he showed anger at him, for seeing him cry, being weak. He probably felt like he knew why he was crying. He was so at a loss, he was powerless to even begin to comprehend what in the hell was going to do.
jwm
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Here's a question, prompted by fofol a while ago: How in the world did Randall get his job? The ranch foreman is a key to the successful operation of the ranch. He is the most important employee on the ranch. Among other things, he needs to be a bit of a mechanic (acc. to The Cowboy Way), which Randall was not. Ranchers don't hire guys without a lot of ranching experience for that job, nor guys whom they don't know personally or by reputation. According to LaShawn, the two of them were surprised to find out what ranch life was really like (as I recall) -- so Randall was a newbie. Why did Roy Taylor hire somebody like that? It don't make sense. Or does it? Somebody explain.
I agree that its cuz ranchin ain't what it used to be...the foreman is probably ever more like the Controller at a co-he may not actually get his hands dirty, by making journal entries, but he knows what's going on, and can make decisions based on financial results.
and Randall was a college boy..that may have appealed to a rancher who wanted to move his operatioin forward with the times......
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I agree that its cuz ranchin ain't what it used to be...the foreman is probably ever more like the Controller at a co-he may not actually get his hands dirty
I don't know about that. That's the opposite of the very large ranch featured in The Cowboy Way: Seasons of a Montana Ranch. The latter is a non-fiction book endorsed by AP. The foreman's hands spent all their time dirty on that ranch. The ranch owner got his dirty, too.
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I agree that its cuz ranchin ain't what it used to be...the foreman is probably ever more like the Controller at a co-he may not actually get his hands dirty
I don't know about that. That's the opposite of the very large ranch featured in The Cowboy Way: Seasons of a Montana Ranch. The latter is a non-fiction book endorsed by AP. The foreman's hands spent all their time dirty on that ranch. The ranch owner got his dirty, too.
Ok, then I have no idea..other than maybe he knows more about the actual biology of the animals he is husbandring?? And maybe there is more of a caste system in Texas..??
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The two of them were totally mixed up and neither of them had any idea as to what to say, what to do, or what not to do or say.
Jack of course breaks the silence, he starts by saying " you going to do this again next summer" No like I said me and Alma will be getting married, and You.
I will go help the folks for the winter, I might be back, with that adorable eyebrow. He waits a bit hoping that Ennis will say something. " If the army don't get me" again nothing encouraging from Ennis so Jack thinks. He doesn't' hear what and how Ennis says what he says.
When Ennis comes back with " well I guess I will see you around then" how could Jack miss that. He is saying OK you will be back next summer I will see you then, if you still feel the same way. Jack also missed the long look that Ennis gave him before he pried himself off the truck to turn away and walk. Jack was either so devastated and in a love sick haze, and convinced himself that Ennis was only in it for the summer thing that he couldn't even imagine that Ennis was trying to tell him the most important thing in their lives. As it turns out, that he wasn't finished, he didn't want it to end, he did want Jack as much now as he did on BB. Jack was deaf, dumb and blind and missed what Ennis was trying to tell him.
jwm
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When he was prying himself off the truck, and watched Jack pull out, watching him fade in the distance, getting farther and farther out of his life. Ennis felt sick then. He knew there was something wrong, his stomach had been burning and his heart was in his throat, and pushing the puke back down even while sitting on the side of the mountain.
The actual viewing of Jack disappearing from sight made it real. He could no longer hold down the bile that was trying so hard to come up. He went into that alley and let himself go, he knew there was no food there to make him sick it was his fear, the rage, confusion and this over powering feeling of loneliness and helplessness. He didn't know how or why this was happening but it was not something you could easily dismiss as a passing phase. He felt undeniably sick and lost. He was petrified as to what was happening, if he had let himself feel and honest with himself he would have figured it out. He cried and sobbed out of frustration, this unknown feeling that was washing over him. He was angry at himself for not being in control of his feelings and he was punching the wall because he didn't know what else to do. He was even angry at the poor cowboy that stopped. He must of felt like he knew why he was crying and heaving, even then he felt guilt and shame for feeling like this. He was no queer he was getting married so why did he feel like his life was over when it was suppose to be just starting.
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The divorce scene was one of the hardest scene for me to watch. Ennis showed little or no concern that Jack had just dropped everything and drove 14 hundred miles to be with him, and yet he never tried to ease the pain in the least. He told Jack basically that it was OK for him to miss his time with the girls like he did last month because of work, but for him he is just going to send him away like an unwelcome intruder. To add insult to injury he makes Jack feel a 100 times worse by reacting to that passing truck like a deer in the head lights. Jack could not help but see the discomfort, shame and embarrassment. He made a bad situation even worse. I doubt if Jack could have felt anymore like crawling under a rock, and the way Ennis looked and acted he wished he would too.
Jack tried to leave with as much dignity as he could muster, but that is very hard to do. He held back his tears, disappointment and just wanting to scream at the top of his lungs " STOP being such an asshole"
He left pissed off, in shock, embarrassed to the fact that he was such a fool to actually think that Ennis would welcome him, and be happy he went. Again he misunderstood Ennis, he seems to go by what he would do or want. Ennis definitely has absolutely none of Jack's qualities when it comes to what lovers do in times of need.
I think right then and there Jack had lost a lot of what got him to drive a thousand miles for a friend and his soul mate. Ennis just had no inkling of how this game is suppose to be played. It is not solitaire, and he is not the only person that matters. There are two hearts, two souls, two broken lives, and yet he just can't seem to grasp the whole dynamics of this tangled web they have both woven.
Jack goes to Mexico I think to hurt himself for being so stupid, and Ennis for turning him away so easily. If he is in this alone so be it. He will flip the bird to the world and everyone in it that has hurt him and slowly bury himself.
I think at that moment in time Jack felt like it was the first day of his new life, one that Ennis was forcing him to live.
jwm
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yes, yes, yes, Wendy...and the fascinating thing, if you look at only the book, is we know NONE of this until the end...we don't see Jack's downward spiral until afte he dies.
I read the book first, which turned out to be somewhat foolish, because the film has always seemed overly romanticized to me, due to having read the the original story first-although I LOVE the movie and putting live people to the characters kept me up at night; it made a haunting story, a little too real. It gave faces to Jack and Ennis.
It has been said, that the wlk into the Mexican alley, where there is a fade out, Jack walkin into oblivion, is the beginning of the end of Jack's hope.
He is a changed man after that divorce scene-you'd think Ennis might notice-'sure seem in one piece to me.'He's too farsighted-he can't see what's right up in his face...
I've said in the past, if he did not leave him then, he never would. I cannot imagine anything lower, than turning your lover away after them driving 1200 miles just to see you and share the life-changing event of the divorce-esp after you called them.
This was beyond me, and good thing Ennis shows some regret over it. The bookended phone calls, the first to Jack and the second to Lureen, are significant:
In the first it signals the beginning of the end; in the second, it signals the end. Communicating over a distance.
And in a way, both scenes containt the same stuff: Ennis opening up. First to Jack on the phone; then the coming out to Lureen on the phone-'we was herding sheep one summer'. He is admitting to the time on Brokeback-even says the word for the very first time-and it is a time he never admitted to even Alma. She never knows Jack was his BBM lover....
The movie is amazing well-constructed. Seamless, really, for what it chooses to do.
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I watched the first half of the film again last night after a long while of
not watching it in favor of peace of mind. ;)
Here's my question.
It struck me again as it has before and again I know the answer
so it is rhetorical of me to ask it, I suppose. But what the hell...
In the scene just BEFORE Ennis washes his body in (side)view of a
tremulous Jack,
WHY IS THIS MAN SHAVING??
Why did they bother to shave??? Since it obvious that Jack, too
continues to shave. The washing I can understand since there must be
SOME sort of personal hygiene even among sheepherders. :D
But WHY do these men bother to shave? Habit? Maybe.
Because it gives them something to do with their hands while
they're sitting around the campfire sneaking peaks at each other?
The answer is obvious to us, but I wonder how obvious it was to either
of them. Did Jack think that Ennis was shaving for him?
Vice versa? I just don't think it was some bit of film business simply
to keep them busy while the said their lines. I think it had some
purpose.
Something else, nothing to do with shaving:
Remember when they have their first conversation around a
campfire and Jacks says: Aguirre has no business making us do
something AGAINST THE RULES? He's bitchin' and moaning as
usual even while Ennis has revealed his future marriage plans...
At any rate, I was watching this last night and thought:
seeds of revolution.
Jack is sowing seeds of revolution.
Watch how Ennis appears to pause and think about Jack's
words - Aguirre has NO right making us do something
AGAINST the rules. Ennis Del Mar has probably never
thought about someone having NO right to do anything
to him. Know what I mean? He's been tossed around
by the hardness of a hardscrabble life and 'rights' or 'no rights'
is probably the last thing on his mind.
So, Jack sets him to thinking...sowing the seeds of a revolution
that Ennis will never completely buy into.
Still, it is food for thought.
Of course, as I've said before, it is also Jack making an
unintentionally ironic statement, but that's another conversation.
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It's possible Yvette, but remember that nobody had beards in 63. And certainly not in Wyoming. I feel grungy if I skip shaving for more then a day.
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They may also have been shaving to show they were men, not boys.
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They may also have been shaving to show they were men, not boys.
Show who?
Each other?
That's my point. They were showing each other something.
It wasn't 'just' shaving.
I think they were, consciously or not, preening for each other.
I agree that showing they were really REALLY men was probably part
of it as well.
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I've always thought shaving gave the clear message that they were in fact, men. And perhaps, preening for each other.
I like your point about 'against the rules'...there is also the sense that Ennis might be a bit in wonderment, over the authority figure flouting the rules-He has brought them into a consipiracy against another authority figure; the Forest Services. (And when the Fall happens, Ennis is shown the results of questioning that authority-the bestial drone condemns him...)
So Ennis is now seeing that some rules, though appearing to be hard and fast, are in fact rather pliable, so long as you play the game. He'll see Jack once in a while, but it has to be way out in the middle of nowhere.
Another conspiracy.
If you mean by seeds of revolution, that Ennis starts down the path that winds up with him questioning the authority of stud ducks all over, and in the end, pissing in a sink-the wrong place-I certainily agree.
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I've always thought shaving gave the clear message that they were in fact, men. And perhaps, preening for each other.
I like your point about 'against the rules'...there is also the sense that Ennis might be a bit in wonderment, over the authority figure flouting the rules-He has brought them into a consipiracy against another authority figure; the Forest Services. (And when the Fall happens, Ennis is shown the results of questioning that authority-the bestial drone condemns him...)
So Ennis is now seeing that some rules, though appearing to be hard and fast, are in fact rather pliable, so long as you play the game. He'll see Jack once in a while, but it has to be way out in the middle of nowhere.
Another conspiracy.
If you mean by seeds of revolution, that Ennis starts down the path that winds up with him questioning the authority of stud ducks all over, and in the end, pissing in a sink-the wrong place-I certainily agree.
Yes, CSI, you got it.
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OK, point taken!
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I'll play.
The second issue - going against the rules - has been covered well. The first - why shave - had me thinking. I'd agree with Jack that it would just be the thing to do. People don't just automatically revert to savages when out of society. And how many bearded cowboys do you see?
But symbolically ..... The film used the strong image (which I think was a CSI catch) of Jack with metal against his jaw, a foretelling of his death. How about the idea of Ennis strengthening hs masculinity by using metal, hoping his razor has enough cut left, hoping he can "make the cut" as a grownup man.
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I wondered what 'hoping it had enough cut in it' meant...it makes me think of him taking the jam and coffee up with him, to skip a trip back in the morning-affording himself more time to spend away from Jack-a threat to his 'man' self, already. I think these are clues that he is feeling 'mixed' already....
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hoping his razor had enough cut in it.....damned good. Seriously. There is the obvious, in the sense that he hoped it would be able to shave him w/o tearing his face up. There is the underlying, that he could make the cut at being a man and a cowboy while herding sheep. There is the under-under-lying, that he was good enough for Jack. Making himself pretty if you will.
Any thoughts, anything else here?
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hoping his razor had enough cut in it.....damned good. Seriously. There is the obvious, in the sense that he hoped it would be able to shave him w/o tearing his face up. There is the underlying, that he could make the cut at being a man and a cowboy while herding sheep. There is the under-under-lying, that he was good enough for Jack. Making himself pretty if you will.
Any thoughts, anything else here?
yeah, I have thought-Xnt about cutting it enough to be worthy for Jack..hmmmm..do we have a tie in anywhere to this idea? love it, really do.....
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I'm a newbie and I apologize if my question below has been discussed. I can't find a search button anywhere.
My question is. .what's the significance of that fireworks scene - Ennis and family with fireworks in the background? The scene held for some seconds; I don't why. Thanks in advance.
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Welcome Yanie. We are always grateful for newbies and new ideas to appear :)
This was discussed a long time ago so I may remember not all aspects, but the main idea I remember is that it is a reflexion of how Ennis feels inside. He is deeply conflicted about his longing feelings for Jack and his shame for longing for a man. Also he is somebody who cannot express himself easily with words, he tends to use his body to say what his mouth cannot say: sex to express love, violence to express frustration and anger.
In that 4th of July, the bikers challenge his manhood. And of course he does not see this in terms of low sex drive (which is probably what they meant) but in terms of not being attracted to women. He feels outed in public. So he blows at them, the only way he knows for dealing with anger, perhaps also his way to show he is a 'real' man since he can fight. The fireworks symbolise all his pent up frustration and anger exploding all of a sudden. Perhaps, being National Day fireworks, they also symbolise the fact that he wants to be the all-American-man with traditional family and patriotic values.
Finally, this is the first time Alma sees the violent side of her husband.
It has been said that every single line of the short story has been used in the film. Perhaps this scene refers to lessons learnt by Ennis from his father : "nothin like hurtin somebody to make him hear good", "don't say nothin and get it over with quick"
I hope this helps. Of course these are only interpretations and we are always open to new ones ;)
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I agree with Mouk - it look a lot like an illustration of those lines from the book (in the book, Ennis was explaining to Jack why he punched him on Brokeback). Ennis is showing reacting violently when his sexuality is questioned in some way. Another example is the Thanksgiving scene with Alma - he is violent to her and then goes out and gets in a fight. I think it helps to show how deeply he is affected by his upbringing and how much homosexuality as a threat.
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Also, some clever person pointed out that the 5th June (Junior's wedding day) correlates with the first day up on Brokeback, and the 4th July correlates with the first night in the tent, so there's an added poignancy to the day for Ennis. Also, if you check the argument with Alma in the scene after the reunion, you'll see a sort of explosion motif on the swing set. Ennis's masculinity is questioned (the bikers, his having to do the wife's job of dishing up the supper while she goes out to work) and Ennis explodes. The fight after the Thanksgiving argument with Alma is another example.
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great, thank you all!
i have to say this movie has really gotten into my head i almost want to hate it! ;D
i looooove this film. :)
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OMG, I had missed the coincidence between the dates, this is wonderful. The advantage of having newbies around, digging up our old stuff :)
So for all their carelessness with the years, the film-makers did some pretty through job with the dates! Interesting - this could show that their (and AP's) way of dealing with time was meant to be symbolical rather than realistic. It has been mentioned before and I had always doubted it, now I am starting to think that perhaps this is the case indeed.
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OMG, I just realized something:
Ennis asks Alma if they can sit closer to the fireworks, and she says no, it'll scare the kids....think about that, form a symbolic pov, given the dates.....
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Nice :)
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Nice :)
thanks! ;)
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Hmmm, yes, interesting - she prevents him from being who he really is. But this is a failed attempt as his true nature bursts through, he explodes - with the fireworks in the background. Nothing in this iconic image of a father and husband defending American traditional 'straight' values on the National Day is what it seems to be. Very cleverly done, different layers just like in the SS.
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Also, he wants to get closer to the 'fire'works-think of the campfire at night on BBM. And Alma pulls him away, with the engagement..
The children will be scared-Can't do anything 'queer'.
I can take it further, but I'll leave it there for now.... :)
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Yeah, that's what I thought you meant in your previous post ??? Come on, take it further... >:D
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Further, further, please! (Saves me thinking ;))
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oh, golly.....
Well, ok: Ennis is approaching the fireworks in the safety of his straight life; but of course, he can't have it both ways. Alma is symbolic of that-she is the mother, who is teaching him how to be a good holy man ;) So she is in charge to an extent-please mom, can't we? No, you can't be queer with me. You can't go near the dangerous/desirous fire. You can't recall Jack.
Ennis we know, is drawn to the fire...and it both scalds and thrills him. There is Des's paradox of desire/danger with jerking the hand back... So it is sublimated in various ways, and I think one of the ways, is in surrogate violence towards the two macho bikers-rather than making love with a man, which he cannot do, and Jack is not around anyway, he is instead violent towards two of them-sadistically so. Not that he'd be attracted to any other man-but it is another example of him drawing towards the fireworks-homosexuality-then, pushing away from it-beating up the bikers, who, incidentally, offer him the catalyst, by proposing an insult to his sexuality, which Alma does not fail to catch-'stopped puttin it to his wife after the kids'-they insult Ennis and Alma and the kids, in one shot. But the important insult is directed at Ennis, and he knows it. It is about how much desire he still has for his wife-and of course, they've hit the mark and don't know it. I think he could give a rat's ass about America the Beautiful. What has it ever done for him? He needs the consistency and sense of security of a family-but his heart lies elsewhere, and those durn bikers are simply reminders of that, in the midst of this most important date for Ennis.
{think also of the bikers as symbolically riding horses, two friends together, free, travelling around..I'm sure it pisses Ennis off, to an extent. He misses Jack.}
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Brilliant, CSI, and very insightful about envying the bikers. I don't think this was mentioned before
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I agree with CSI's last thought about Ennis missing Jack--that was the other thing I felt during this scene (in addition to what others have said): that Ennis is wound up so tight because he misses Jack. I think of the way he looks at Alma (sitting on the couch with Alma Jr) just before Jack arrives at the reunion: it's a look of complete disinterest. And when she approaches him for sex, the same. So all of that culminates in that explosion of anger, both for missing Jack and a reminder that he's tied to someone he isn't attracted to and doesn't love. I think Lee said somewhere in an early interview that the scenes of the two of them apart display how how much they miss and long for one another.
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Tx, Mouk, although brilliant's a pretty strong word.... :-[ :)
Lauren: yes, I've always felt we were being shown the strain on each of them, being apart, I agree.
Nice profile, btw, I meant to tell you. Congratulations!
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I don't know if the scene in the truck w/ Ennis and Alma Jr. has been discussed, but I've been thinking about it lately based on my theory that there isn't a wasted word, nay even a comma, in the story or screenplay. So I think the scene must have more meaning than I've been able to find.
The reference to the new baby tells us Alma and Monroe now have two kids of their own, and Alma Jr. is feeling picked on and crowded. Ennis knows she'll be better off w/ them than w/ him. Mother+stepfather is better than just father.
But is there more to it than this?
To back up, I came to my theory by pondering Ennis's remark before their third trip to the mountain when he said to one of the girls "OK, as long as I don't have to sing." That's one of three references to Ennis singing, and they mean a lot.
So I'm wondering what more might be going on in the truck.
And while we're at it, is that hay in the back just for decoration, or does it serve a dramatic purpose?
In the 10 minutes since I posted this, I've thought about it a little more, and wonder if Alma Jr's suggestion to move in w/ Ennis is related to her being jealous of Cassie's relationship w/ him. In between these postings I do try to get work done for the taxpayers.
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^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Wow, Marc, lots going on up there...I have a few thoughts myself.
I think there are two layers to Alma Jr's request to live with Ennis; she relates to him emotionally. In the SS, he relates to her as well, describing her as shy and having his looks (beanpole length). I think this is a tribute to that. And the other layer, if we want to see if symbolically ;D ;D is something mini pointed out: Ennis 'spends' his love in acceptable ways, ie, with his children, Alma and Francie, who are a subsitute, symbolically, for Jack and Ennis-AJ with her beanpole length (Ennis) and Francie the live wire (Lightnin Jack Twist). So in a way, AJ is asking to be let in to Ennis's life, and thus his heart, the same way Jack does. She kind of threatens to bring the acceptable spend into an unacceptable psychological area for Ennis-living with a man. I think that paranaoia is somehow triggered by her offer. Not rational, of course. And it is not meant to be literally a one/one substitution, ie, AJ for Jack.
But I do agree she is also kind of wanting to protect him-wants him to be himself, and free of the burdens of women throwing themselves at her father, when she has a sense he doesn't want it. The movie makes that clear, as she looks after him on the dance floor...There could indeed be some jealousy there, too-AJ is left without him, except on visits, and she clearly is not connecting with Monroe. She appears to feel all the tension her parents do at TXgiving, whereas the younger one, Jenny/Francie appears oblivious.
Just some feedback; hope it prompts more thoughts.
And singing: I always think of that as telling the truth; you can't sing and hide who you are. I do think that line, 'long as I don't have to sing' is about Ennis not wanting to 'confess' who and what he is to straight.judgmental society-the fire and brimstone crowd.
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Here's what I said elsewhere about singing, and it doesn't go quite as far as announcing his sexuality. But they both start w/ "s," don't they?
Singing instances:
-- on the way to the bear, which I didn't hear until somebody pointed it out. And I hadn't noticed that the "Cowboy's Lament" was the first song listed in the credits. Bad Marcky.
-- "as long as I don't have to sing"
-- dozy embrace
Ennis will sing -- and can be himself -- only when he's alone or w/ Jack.
It's a beautiful use of symbolism. Oops, am I on the wrong thread?
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Oh, that's interesting-you're right, he doesn't hum but with Jack, or on his way back to Jack, on BBM-and notice, Francie is the one who emotionally expresses herself-she is going to sing at the wedding. The substitute Jack. It kind of fits in a way, now that you mention it. Good catch.
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I think that Ennis just didn't want anyone living with him. He loves his daughter as much as Ennis could but he liked his own company, his own cooking I guess, and he wouldn't have to answer to her as to where he was going for his holidays. Also when Alma left him to dish out supper, he didn't like it one bit, that was the mothers job. He loved his kids but he could never be a real father in the way Junior always wanted and needed. This way he spends time with her and then drops her off home, just like he does with Jack. He meets him, spends great quality time, but he can hop in his truck and watch him from his rear view mirror.
Like they say about grandkids, you can love them to death, spoil them, let them do what they want, all the time knowing they will be leaving sometime soon. ;D
You get all the enjoyment, without all the commitments which usually goes hand and hand, with full time. Part time sometimes is all some people can handle.
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hmmm....I don't know, Wendy. I don't think it is Ennis's nature to be part time, so much as he has this very real fear of being found out. He commits lots of time to his job, if you think about it; and he committed what he could to the sheep, once Jack and him got going; He favors the little apartment, in the SS, as AP says, because it could be left anytime...He needs escape routes, I think. And I think all of it is tied to the big secret he seems to keep from himself-he is homosexual and can only love a man, and that man is Jack.
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Further to Francie=Jack: Francine has an asthmatic wheeze, in keeping with all the Jack/breathing refs. Jack chokes to death, i.e. can't breathe, like Francine.
Singing - nice subject, Marc. The use of the Cowboy's Lament is great in the film. I'm a young cowboy and I know I've done wrong, I'm shot in the breast and I know I must die. Check out the tiny blood patch over Ennis's heart after the nosebleed. Ennis knows his heart has been reached and he reacts with fear and violence. And at the argument in 1983 he's described as standing "as if heartshot". Film and book are so tightly melded.
It intrigues me that Ennis has a "good raspy voice" when he sings, especially when AP describes (in "Getting Movied") the rasping of their love against societal norms. IOW he sings to and with Jack, yet there's the element of friction to it.
Junior is a little bit like Ennis at the start - his brother and sister up and marry and there's no room for him, just as Junior feels excluded by her mother's remarriage and new family responsibilities. I love the way we linger on Ennis as he drives away, having turned her request down. He's thinking.
The hay? A practical answer is that it's maybe there for his horses when he gets back home, but it also fills up the back of his truck so there's no room for anything else, just as Jack fills up all his spare time and emotion, to the exclusion of almost everything else, including his daughter.
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I never thought much about the hay-but it feeds the horses, and the horses are the animal symbols of Jack and Ennis. There may be something there-the mare that startles (Ennis) and then ennis's steady horse (Jack).
I've always been impressed with the breathing and electrical imagery, and it serves to enhance the sense of Francie as the contrast to Alma J, thus Jack being contrasted to Ennis. AP pulls some neat tricks...
a little S&I, but its already been posted there.
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hmmm....I don't know, Wendy. I don't think it is Ennis's nature to be part time, so much as he has this very real fear of being found out. He commits lots of time to his job, if you think about it; and he committed what he could to the sheep, once Jack and him got going; He favors the little apartment, in the SS, as AP says, because it could be left anytime...He needs escape routes, I think. And I think all of it is tied to the big secret he seems to keep from himself-he is homosexual and can only love a man, and that man is Jack.
See that is where I differ. I believe that almost everything about Ennis is half assed. He never fully commits to anything. He is one that does his duty, and what is expected of him, but he could leave at a drop of a hat. That to me is really living life part time, or half way. He leaves jobs, he left his family on a whim to do what he wanted to do. He seen his kids sometimes when his time with them came up. He seen Jack part time, he seen his kids part time, he seen Cassie part time. The only time he didn't do things half assed was when he was expected to work, that he never swayed from, but it was never permant. The summer of herding sheep was part time until he could get married. So I think Ennis never really committed to anything with substance, whole heartedly, never giving his all. He kind of kept his distance from anything that could truly tie him down, or change the way he liked to live his life.
He never let anyone really in to his world. He distanced himself from anything and anyone that could interfer with it. If anyone could have broached that gap it would have been Jack, but he ended up getting less than what he had before. Ennis was regressing instead of progressing. So Ennis to me stayed true to his nature and kept himself within his own boundaries that he had established for himself. No one was ever close enough, or dug deep enough to ever make Ennis commit completely. Again it was more his personally and his determation that kept him at a distance. This is just my HOP. :)
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I see what you are saying, I do.....I do think he has the need to be able to leave if he needs to-it is part of the fear of being found out. I think this is why he likes being away from 'town'..But I think on a day to day basis, he can commit to something-without Jack showing back up, he would have, I believe, just lived his dull, dutiful life with Alma.He may have taken on a more permanent job eventually, and go slogging thru life til the kids grew up and eventually fall into the bar scene, once Alma realizes he is not emotionally present with her.
But then Jack shows up, and then his committment shifts-so both Jack and Alma get half-measures, Alma because of Jack; and Jack because of hphobia/denial/guilt/self-loathing. Once this happens, there is no way Ennis can give 100% to both.
He is truly stuck.
I'm not defending him, btw, just observing..
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I am a big believer in if you want something bad enough, and it hurts so badly when you feel you will never get it, you spend most of your time trying to figure out ways of getting it. Ennis never did. He went through life with blinders on and he had built up such a defensive mechanism to keep anything and anyone from being able to get close. He let them get close, always just enough, just enough to keep them wanting more. He never gave 100% of himself to anything. He said it, you have nothing, you don't need nothing. So that is how he lived his life, with just enough to get him through the day, no more, no less.
Ennis was just a very simple man, with no goals, and ambition. He let life pass him by never really stopping to take notice of what really was going on around him. He has lived this life for along time like that, never really needing anyone, or really expecting anyone to make it better for him. He just went about his business with no expectations and he never really had anything in his life that he felt strong enough about to change it. He cared about Jack, he loved him the only way Ennis could. It just was not what most people in love would do. He settled for what he felt deserved and that was it. Jack really didn't stand a chance.
\
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Just OMT-he did say, 'if you don't got nothin,'etc' , after Jack had passed. And its a rather sad thing to say to your daughter...
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Just OMT-he did say, 'if you don't got nothin,'etc' , after Jack had passed. And its a rather sad thing to say to your daughter...
Yes I agree and sorry if I miss quoted but it is still the same to me. He lived his life that way. He settled . He never stepped out of the box in order to get what he wanted. He had nothing, he said he is nothing, I'm no where. To me he was a sad confused man that didn't have a clue as to what he had or how to go about getting it. I know I sound cruel, but that is how I see it. I feel for him I really do, but he had a choice. Good or bad it was his to make what ever one he decided. It really was out of his realm of thought to even consider that he actually could have done something different, not until Jack left him that is. Too little too late. If only he had opened up his little world a little more and he might have seen that it was his for the taking. He now is left a very lonely, guilty, angry man. He knows now that it might have been worth the danger if only he could have Jack back. If I have miss quoted again I am sorry, but I hope you get my drift.
Wendy
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No, you didn't misquote-I paraphrased it, too....My only point was the timing of it, like are you sure he felt the same way pre-Jack's death and post-Jack's death?
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jwm, I disagree that Ennis didn't have goals. He wanted to be a sophomore, we're told that for a purpose. He felt the word had a kind of distiction. He was saving for his own place, to replace the home he'd lost. It seems he had full intentions of doing the right thing by Alma in this respect. Trouble is, he had had the rug pulled from under him a few times, and that's pretty much what Jack did to him too.
If Ennis had impermanence in his life it was through circumstance rather than choice, I feel.
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Re; the Prologue:
Marian pointed out something fascinating: The dreams are the true bookends in the story....The prologue is about Ennis's later Jack dream; and the ending of the story proper contains the line that Jack started appearing in Ennis's dreams-many of them nightmarish in quality, where the mutant spoon cum tire iron spoils Jack's smiling face, as Ennis saw in the illusion of the power of Brokeback mountain.
Now, why, we ask, does he NEVER dream of Jack in between the prologue-10 or 20 years later, perhaps-and the end of the story? In other words, he does not dream of Jack during the 20 years he was making love with him...if he did, we'd not have the line above, about Jack starting to appear in his dreams.
Now dreams are usually either acting out of conflict, or resolution of same-and are often used to express inhibitions along with unfullfilled desires...How often to we have that good dream about someone we've lost, only to wake up in grief, knowing they are gone?
So-What of the missing dreams in the middle? Seriously, had he dreamed of him, we'd be told. I am getting that there may have been no inner conflict about his own sexuality, now, during that time. That he did not question himself, only Jack-or that he had resolved his own wondering about Jack and him, or had successfully tamped it down to the point where it was not even a subconscious issue...So how on earth could he have any queer awareness about himself, if his dreams did not even contain Jack?? I think this only starts after he finds the shirts, and recognizes what he feels reflected back at him-and the process of self-knowledge begins, sadly, in a way that he could only intutively grasp, without an intellectual understanding: thru dreams.
thawts?
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Maybe what happens in between is a dream itself. It's become that for Ennis since Jack died. Also, the progress of the story can be seen as a series of dreams dying. The Edenic summer on BBM dies into memory and becomes a dream, during the Reunion the dream of living together (again) dies to be replaced the series of HAFs, and so forth. Maybe.
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Maybe what happens in between is a dream itself. It's become that for Ennis since Jack died. Also, the progress of the story can be seen as a series of dreams dying. The Edenic summer on BBM dies into memory and becomes a dream, during the Reunion the dream of living together (again) dies to be replaced the series of HAFs, and so forth. Maybe.
Do you mean dream as an illusion he contains himself with, in between? I was talking more of literal dreams of the subconscious that we presume might contain
The Truth-but I suppose what Ennis wills himself to imagine, or believe, is indeed a kind of dream state.
That's interesting...
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I was speaking figuratively here, so dream as illusion, not psychoanalytically in search of The TRUTH. I don't think we have any access to the latter, so I'll stick to the former. Ennis didn't take the reality of Jack's love seriously, so what he is left with is the memory or illusion of Jack.
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It's interesting that Ennis doesn't dream of Jack when they're together - you'd think he would.
Dreams tend to be symbolic - maybe his dreams of Jack were symbolic (e.g. Jack being represented by horses or children) and he didn't pick up the symbolism. It's only after Jack's death that he starts to understand (picking up on the symbolism of the spoon).
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Yes, I agree the dreams become symbolic after Jack's death. But that symbolism may be more important to Ennis than the reality in which he is living. And here, the short story and the movie really, really diverge.
In the short story, his daughter doesn't visit the trailer and get him to come to her wedding. That offers a ray of hope in the movie, that is absent from the story. If the short story ended with Ennis' suicide, we would probably not be surprised. But it is almost too much to imagine what a complete downer that would be in the movie, as if we hadn't already had our guts torn out by that time.
Probably best that Annie Proulx declined to go down that path for two reasons: for us as readers, and for Ang Lee so we weren't plunged into depressing despair at the end (his ending allowed, I believe, some catharsis). Annie Proulx's offers a buffering too because the beginning of the last paragraph directly recalls the prologue. But I guess once you start displacing scenes and themes (such as moving the climax from the Reunion to the Last scene together), it's hard to keep everything else in place.
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Suicide is ruled out by the last words - if you can't fix it you've got to stand it. That's Ennis's philosophy. And the daughter mentioned in the prologue serves the same sort of end, showing Ennis as retaining and perhaps even strengthening the bonds he had before Jack's death.
The SS says that the dreams began around the time he makes his shrine, rather than directly after he finds the shirts which happens a few weeks earlier. So the symbolic acknowledgment of Jack's importance, the act of going out and buying a postcard, with all the openness that implies (for Ennis, anyway), is what kicks off the dreams. It's a slow process of opening up, but pretty rapid for a man who hasn't opened up much in 20 years.
I do think the bookends are important. AP, we are told, added the last para after sending the story off to the New Yorker, which means the story began with "Ennis del Mar wakes before five ...." and ended with "And he would wake, sometimes in grief ....." Yet there are no dreams in the 20 years. This is big time denial. Of course, as Des says, Jack was no doubt there symbolically, just as he is throughout the story, but not presented in a way that would challenge Ennis's conscious view of himself.
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Mini A,
I don't think the last words of the short story entirely preclude a move towards suicide. Who is the voice of that last sentence? Is it unequivocally Ennis, or, more to my mind, could it be the (omniscient) author? There is more than a hint of ironic tone in it that makes sense only if it is the author. I know in the movie the words are put in Ennis' mouth, but I'm talking about the short story. I'm not terribly wedded to an extension of the story in which Ennis commits suicide, but I don't rule it out altogether.
For what it's worth...
Sandy
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I think he would deem suicide cowardly.
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I don't think the last words of the short story entirely preclude a move towards suicide. Who is the voice of that last sentence? Is it unequivocally Ennis, or, more to my mind, could it be the (omniscient) author? There is more than a hint of ironic tone in it that makes sense only if it is the author. I know in the movie the words are put in Ennis' mouth, but I'm talking about the short story. I'm not terribly wedded to an extension of the story in which Ennis commits suicide, but I don't rule it out altogether.
In the SS he says it in the motel, so it is the author sort of throwing back at Ennis the words he used to rebuff Jack.
And Jo, I agree that suicide would have been the coward's way out for him. Life is to be endured.
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RE: Txgiving scene.
To shift over here some of what we touched on in the other threads, Alma outs Ennis here...and the discussion was about her motives, how much she knew when.
I'd say that Bill/Monroe was her first basis for comparison outside of Ennis-and clearly, he cared for her. He got to know her at work, then took on her two children plus their own. He had to be a confident man to run a grocery store and take on a new family. The antithesis of poor Ennis-plus he cared for her, no doubt, as I said.
So she must see/feel a difference in his bedroom treatment-and it must contrast greatly with several aspects of her sexual life with Ennis. So I think this brings the whole Jack Nasty thing to the surface; I am guessing she deduces that Ennis is indeed not 'normal'-but she won't say it to him. Instead she attacks Jack-which brings out a combination of feelings in Ennis; rage; fear; denial, the whole gamut. For he both loves and resents Jack, in a way-Jack is the reason he's in the position he is in, as far as he knows. He may not realize he'd have a problem or two with or without Jack, eventually, with women.
My point is, Alma has a buried truth rise to the surface, gradually, i think, after her marriage-so she indeed has been ready to trounce Ennis. I think it took the relationship with the new guy to do this. Had she stayed away from men, for example, after the divorce, it may have taken a lot longer. She
might have doubted herself alot longer, rather than realize it could not work, the Ennis was simply not able to love her.
Another example of the bad habit women have historically had defining their value via the men in their lives.
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And perhaps she felt herself to be at fault. If Ennis isn't what she thinks he should be then it must be her fault. Then she finds out she is, in fact, lovable. Confidence brings the courage to see things in a different light.
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Exactly. I love how Annie Proulx shied away from no pov in this story-she just laid it all out very realistically, without judgement, or preference.
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after watching the film again today its obvious that monroe always liked alma the way he helps her when ennis turns up at her work with the kids and helps her when alma jr knocks the tins over the floor love to me
i know everyone might of already realized this but ive only just noticed its funny the more times you watch a film you notice all the little details!
its a sweet little scene
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Marz, I agree, that scene is a little e-mail to us about what is going to happen, ya know?
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after watching the film again today its obvious that monroe always liked alma the way he helps her when ennis turns up at her work with the kids and helps her when alma jr knocks the tins over the floor love to me
i know everyone might of already realized this but ive only just noticed its funny the more times you watch a film you notice all the little details!
its a sweet little scene
Hi Marz,
the tip-off is the close-up of the actor who plays Monroe.
You don't get a close-up in a scene unless its going to mean something down the road.
Soon as I saw that, I thought, aha!
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It's such a contrast to Ennis in that scene too - part of the widening water between them in the film version, perhaps. Monroe does just what Alma needs at that point, and shows her her life with Ennis isn't the norm.
I know when we talked about him ages ago, a lot of women didn't find him attractive. I know he's no Heath Ledger looks wise, but it's interesting that the smouldering, passionate guy is still seen as sexier than the nice guy. Even when we know that the nice guy is going to be better in bed!
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Its interesting to think about how they went about picking Monroe. I think there was maybe a little bit of that 'nice guys finish last' mentality. It was about what he could do, not how he looked...Of course, not sure that the 'real' Ennis in the SS was necessarily as good-looking as Heath Ledger. ;)
But I see your point.
And it's important as to how it affects Alma-I mean, look at that house she is living in, all the nice stuff-they did a good job giving one that cozier suburban feeling with that lovely porch, in with all the other pretty houses. And sadly, they point out, with the holiday and the snow and the ice-skaters, all the stuff Ennis did and will miss out on, because he's 'nowhere and nothing'-he loves a man, cannot accept it, and he is absolutely right to fear the tire iron. Bashing still goes on, as we know with that little 15 year old boy, recently.
But that scene, where Ennis is on the outs just by being divorced, and he clears the table while his daughter walks past him and touches him affectionately, and Monroe sits in his easy chair with his cigar....its just such a sad contrast. He and Ennis are completely different types, accept for the fact for the major underlying fact that Monroe, too, is most likely homophobic. The big cigar after dinner makes him one of the boys. Its very ironic, that they indeed most likely share this fundamental thing.
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You know, if occurs to me: How could Ennis NOT wonder how much Monroe knew, ie, once he realizes Alma knows the implications of the fishing trips? Ennis storms out and does not try to see the girls for a long time..but I wonder how much is that he figures Monroe must know something too? I don't really think he does, but down the road, I'm guessing Alma tells him-perhaps after the incident. Or maybe Monroe poicked up on by himself-its a bit intriguing, isnt' it??
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I wonder how curious or involved Monroe was. The house is quite small yet he lets the argument get up a head of steam without being moved to get involved.
What I hate is the way he settles in his chair and casts a proprietary look at both the girls. Maybe he's concerned that they are settled but it strikes me he's thinking "these kids are mine".
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I wonder how curious or involved Monroe was. The house is quite small yet he lets the argument get up a head of steam without being moved to get involved.
What I hate is the way he settles in his chair and casts a proprietary look at both the girls. Maybe he's concerned that they are settled but it strikes me he's thinking "these kids are mine".
Oh, I gotta think about that...I always saw it as 'I won Alma over, eat shit' or something like that, but in a passive aggressive way. I wonder how much attention he actually pays to the girls. AJ is clearly unhappy with the situation; Jenny just goes along for the ride, and I'm sure, as some fanfic suggests, reacts when she grows up.
But now as I think of it: We find out he does make demands on her as she gets older, when his OWN child is on the way, ie, AJ telling Ennis both her mother and Monroe are getting strict with her. They are anticipating the baby and they have a teen-ager on the brink of womanhood in the house, and she ain't happy there...
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From another thread;
It's making me think of that comparatively throwaway scene in the film, where Ennis gets into the fight on the 4th of July (so AL could get that iconic shot of him in front of the fireworks, IMO).
Actually it's an extremely ironic shot. The bikers are uncivilized, with lousy manners and sexual language -- definitely in opposition to 'family values.' So Ennis punishes them, and probably drives them off. Then stands straight and tall against the fireworks. OK.
But really -- what finally prompts him to attack? One of the bikers says 'He probly stopped giving it to his old lady after the kids were born' -- a jibe at Ennis's manhood, rather than a threat to his family. Also, who really represents the greater threat to family values? - a couple of loudmouth straight bikers who came out of nowhere and are headed right back? Or Ennis himself, with his secret and his lies, and above all his sexuality. He knows who the real threat is, and whom society will punish much more severely. He defends his family, but he cannot protect them from himself. He stands tall against the sky on the 4th of July, but that shot is ironic as well as iconic IMO.
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Dal, that post was so good, I could taste it.
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From another thread;
It's making me think of that comparatively throwaway scene in the film, where Ennis gets into the fight on the 4th of July (so AL could get that iconic shot of him in front of the fireworks, IMO).
Actually it's an extremely ironic shot. The bikers are uncivilized, with lousy manners and sexual language -- definitely in opposition to 'family values.' So Ennis punishes them, and probably drives them off. Then stands straight and tall against the fireworks. OK.
But really -- what finally prompts him to attack? One of the bikers says 'He probly stopped giving it to his old lady after the kids were born' -- a jibe at Ennis's manhood, rather than a threat to his family. Also, who really represents the greater threat to family values? - a couple of loudmouth straight bikers who came out of nowhere and are headed right back? Or Ennis himself, with his secret and his lies, and above all his sexuality. He knows who the real threat is, and whom society will punish much more severely. He defends his family, but he cannot protect them from himself. He stands tall against the sky on the 4th of July, but that shot is ironic as well as iconic IMO.
Perfectly put, Dal.
Nothing more to be said as far as I'm concerned.
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It's such a contrast to Ennis in that scene too - part of the widening water between them in the film version, perhaps. Monroe does just what Alma needs at that point, and shows her her life with Ennis isn't the norm.
I know when we talked about him ages ago, a lot of women didn't find him attractive. I know he's no Heath Ledger looks wise, but it's interesting that the smouldering, passionate guy is still seen as sexier than the nice guy. Even when we know that the nice guy is going to be better in bed!
Well, in Alma's case, perhaps any man willing to face her would be BIB- ;)
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I noticed something about the body language in the truck scene at the beginning. It's when Jack looks like he's going to walk over to Ennis but Ennis puts his head down and Jack stops the goes back to the truck and does that sexy lean against the truck. What does that body language say to you? To me he was flirting. The open posture, not to mention the look he's giving Ennis.
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There's a thread for the Opening Scenes where this gets thrashed out at regular intervals. All I'll say at present is that the first time I saw the film, when Jake draped himself over that truck, I thought, "Put it away, boy, you're far too obvious!"
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Thanks for pointing me in the right direction. As far as the Jake pose...... :::: drool :::::::
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I am wary of analyzing films or anything artistic perhaps but I am wondering if anyone has any thoughts on Ennis asking Jack if things between him and Lureen were normal. And also wondering about Jack's statement that Lureen's and his marriage could be handled long distance. Seems like Jack has been hurt by Lureen and maybe this is just conveying to us that Jack wanted to make the marriage work and that he did not just marry Lureen out of convenience.
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Hi moomoo, welcome to our shared obsession.
Ennis asking Jack about whether things with Lureen were normal and all seems, to me, to be more about Ennis' fear of being caught out.
As for Jack's "long-distance" remark, I don't see how that could be taken as evidence for him wanting the marriage to work out. It seems to me that he would say something like that only when he thought it didn't have much of a chance of wroking out going forward. What little evidence we have on Jack and Lureen's marriage is suggests that she (and her father before her) held the purse-strings and called the shots, something that would have grated on Jack's wish to have some control over his destiny.
I'm not sure theirs is a marriage of convenience in the conventional sense, i.e., he married Lureen to be his "beard" and shield him from homophobia and she married him to satisfy her parents' (and society's) demands to marry and to have a pliant husband who would bend to her will and desires. A marriage of convenience implies that both parties mutually, if tacitly, consented to the arrangement. I'm not sure their marriage was that calculated. I think they both fell into it without any heed to the consequences, and made the mistake of prolonging a one-night stand into a marriage.
At any rate, by the time Jack contacts Ennis, he has largely abandoned the idea of having a mutually satisfactory, emotionally creative marriage with Lureen, and would easily abandon it for the cow and calf operation with Ennis.
I can't see Jack as fully committed to the idea of a maririage (with Lureen or any other woman) and all that entails at any time during the story. Jack, as much as Ennis, let himself be buffteted by the winds of fortune. That's to be expected, neither of them had the material or emotional resources to withstand what hit them. IMO
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Thanks, Sandy. I can't disagree. There is allusion in the film (though not definite) and in the short story to Ennis having anal sex with Alma also and I wonder if Ennis' "normal" statement could be something to do with this?
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While many of us posters try on occasion to recover very precise details about the characters' backstories, the evidence, generally word choice, is usually slim. I think "normal," whatever its reference, is more likely to be general than specific. So instead of picking out a precise sexual behavior like anal sex, I think that it more generally refers to general attitude towards sexual interaction. It's Ennis' fear that his desire for a man would give him away to others. FWIW.
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Yes, Sandy, I can live with that. I also don't like the precise and think that Ang Lee wouldn't be leading us that way either. Thanks.
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I agree, I think Ennis is just asking if things are ok between them, that Jack has an adequate marriage that implies he is somehow straight, with the marital bed that goes with it. Cuz if he does not, and then Ennis's marriage has failed, and then both men are still seeing each other....it implies way too much about the true nature of the relationship, with which Ennis cannot deal.
It implies it could be because of each other that the marriages have failed-there has to be visible proof for Ennis that this is not true.
Actually, I never fully thought that out before..thoughts?
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Yup, I think that's a good call that really fits.
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Seems to me Jack is shading the truth a bit, to keep Ennis nice and calm.
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Ennis being his low startle point horse and all...the one that spooks when they come upon a bear ;)
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Seems to me Jack is shading the truth a bit, to keep Ennis nice and calm.
This is my take on it as well... he really could care less about Jack and Lureen's marraige - what he cares about it what this information might mean about them. But I also kinda wonder if he's in some way searching (I see some sort of "searching look" from him at this point) for the truth here eventhough I'm not sure he can handle it. So Jack carefully gives that look - Jack knows at this point not to verbalize anything...
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I tend to think Jack blows a great opportunity for some discussion at this point. But since such a discussion doesn't happen in the SS it can't happen in the film. So we just get a scene where Ennis's continuing - or growing - paranoia is emphasised, which gives him a reason to take up with Cassie.
"Normal" appears to mean having a sexual relationship of any description with a woman, i.e. conforming to societal norms.
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I tend to think Jack blows a great opportunity for some discussion at this point. But since such a discussion doesn't happen in the SS it can't happen in the film. So we just get a scene where Ennis's continuing - or growing - paranoia is emphasised, which gives him a reason to take up with Cassie.
"Normal" appears to mean having a sexual relationship of any description with a woman, i.e. conforming to societal norms.
I just realized, with your post here, that when Ennis asks Jack "is it normal" with Lureen? - Jack gives Ennis an odd look. Their relationship is not normal, the sex isn't normal - according to Ennis anyway. They are so far apart on this subject!! They aren't even on the same spectrum. Just another stab at Jack's heart... :(
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That's a good pt, but I wonder if Jack doesn't intantly grasp what he already knows; that the societal norm is a man and a woman. If he shares a degree of Ennis's hphobia, that many or most men would have at that time, despite their orientation, then I think this would be something he'd expect to hear, and he'd think it himself.
In the SS, we find out he told Ennis he could never get it right, with his father, after the pissing scene-so he has grown up feeling a bit of an outcast.
Not sure if he'd be too impacted by Ennis placing what they do together outside the norm.
Just some thinkin'.
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That's a good pt, but I wonder if Jack doesn't intantly grasp what he already knows; that the societal norm is a man and a woman. If he shares a degree of Ennis's hphobia, that many or most men would have at that time, despite their orientation, then I think this would be something he'd expect to hear, and he'd think it himself.
In the SS, we find out he told Ennis he could never get it right, with his father, after the pissing scene-so he has grown up feeling a bit of an outcast.
Not sure if he'd be too impacted by Ennis placing what they do together outside the norm.
Just some thinkin'..
true enough. It was more the look that Jack gave Ennis when he asked...it wasn't until Marian's post that it got me thinking.
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A few thoughts that hit me while discussing this scene and a few other
things over on the Scenes with Ennis and Alma, etc, thread.
I'm wondering, have always wondered, really, why Ennis would be invited to
Thanksgiving. Any Thanksgiving. Any holiday, for that matter. Or ANY dinner.
Especially since I don't see this as an amicable divorce scenario.
Would the girls have insisted and Alma, just to shut them up, acquiesced?
She's pregnant, would her cajoling tolerance be weaker?
Did the girls catch her at low point?
AND why would the grocer put up with having the ex-husband at the dinner table?
Yes, he seems easy-going enough, but is that it?
Of the two men, Ennis, appears the manlier, certainly. He's the 'cowboy'. The guy
who leads a reckless existence, occasionally rodeoing, bringing colorful stories to
the dinner table. In comparison, the grocer seems a lackluster sort.
Is it possible that Monroe just doesn't see it? Could he be so complacent that nothing
in this scenario bothers him?
Well, after all, Alma is pregnant. So the grocer's manhood can't be challenged...
And yet, we know this means nothing.
We suppose Monroe does not know that Ennis is gay.
Has no suspicion.
Possibly does NOT even know the true reason why Ennis and Alma divorced.
He just knows he's the beneficient recepient of good luck.
Does Ennis INVITE HIMSELF to dinner? How did this work? In the s/s it just says that
Ennis showed his expansiveness (not really, but that's how I view it) by 'taking' Thanksgiving
dinner with Alma, the girls and the grocer.
So who set this up?
Was it a long-standing invitation? And was it because Ennis NEVER had a girlfriend
that it was assumed he would NOT show up with another woman? For, I gotta' tell you,
I don't think Alma would have been very friendly to ANYONE showing up with Ennis.
OR WOULD SHE HAVE BEEN RELIEVED TO SEE A WOMAN AT HIS SIDE??
The dynamics of all this have always seemed a little odd to me.
And something else:
In the film, we see Ennis sitting at the table, all spruced up, acting (or attempting to) in a
phoney expansive way, unnatural to his 'regular' demeanor and you just have to wonder.
Why does Alma put herself through this? (Especially if, as some of you think, she still
has residual feelings for Ennis.) Why would she put her new husband through this as well?
Is it just that she wants to SHOW OFF her new found life and happiness to Ennis?
Living well is the best revenge, and all that?
I mean, what exactly is going on here?
This is not just a little holiday gathering.
No wonder it ends in disaster.
And another something else, while I'm at it:
I've always felt that Ennis is being treated, in the film sequence, very much like an extraneous,
unmarried uncle whom no one knows what to do with on the holidays, so he gets shunted
around from house to house and now it is Alma's turn to entertain him. And he, Ennis,
feels called upon to 'entertain' in return. Sing for his supper, so to speak. Behave as if he
is still relevant.
He uses the occasion, awkward in all its implications, to bask in his daughters' admiration.
THOUGH we KNOW he does NOT REALLY NEED it. Since, afterwards, he simply shuts the
girls out until they grow up and get wise to things. (So the story-telling too, seems like an act.)
In fact, one of the daughters is never mentioned again.
Go figure.
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Rose, think L-O-S-E-R. ;)
That is how most people would see Ennis. Divorced, broke, a sad-sack, a cowboy, a ranchhand, who never gets ahead and lives hand to mouth. Sure, Alma loved him-but how hers is warped by her rage over his 'depravity' as we talked about earlier.
And Monroe would be shaking his head over Ennis, thinking, 'what's wrong with that guy? Can't keep a job, can't keep Alma happy, etc.'
They'd both likely feel sorry for him..It would not suprise me if Alma invited him, for a number of reasons, not the least of which was to confront him-or show him that she's done better without him. I understand why people are angry at her in this scene, but she could have no concept of the suffering Ennis is going thru over Jack, really. Esp if she does not understand the love.
I think Monroe would also be happy to preen a bit, to maybe offset some of his perceived Howdy Doodiness, by being the winner-he got Alma and he is providing for the girls. I cannot imagine how embarassing that would be, and its a bit shocking that Ennis thinks he has no hard feelings, which of course is not true-he called Jack in desperation, no doubt, after the D happened. But we don't know that until the end.
Incidentally, if you see them standing together in the supermarket, IMO, Ennis comes off as a bit of a loose cannon-whereas Monroe appears cool and confident. He may not seem as good-looking as Ennis, but of course, we have not way of knowing that in the SS-'Bill' sounds kind of grown up and suave. "Ennis" sounds like an errant child-just my impression.
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on the other hand maybe monroe invited him to show off and prove to ennis that ennis has lost everything i really don;t think alma wanted ennis there but thats just my view
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I agree with the Monroe part-and Alma does seem extremely tense, so maybe she indeed just went along with it. But don't you think she might want still be smarting from his comment that if she didn't want kids, he'd leave her alone? and there she is, pregnant. It might be a bit of vengeance-I hate to think that, but I could see it. OMg, I've had friends that have done shit like that to their exes.
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There's a lot of different stuff going on beneath the surface in this scene,
and unfortunately Ennis is the focus of it. Funny though, you'd think that Alma,
with her 'living well is the best revenge' motif, would be at the center. She's
the 'successful' one, after all.
But no.
Everything revolves around Ennis in this scene.
Is he aware of it?
Probably not.
You know, csi, the line about Ennis being the loser,
(Or at least, being perceived as such because of his lifestyle.)
makes me think how differently we all see Ennis as opposed to how
he's seen in the actuality of his 'world'. Sure, you're right.
Since he's perceived as a 'loser' by one and all, then no harm inviting
him to dinner. His nonentity status protects him, I suppose.
He's that harmless extraneous person often found at family
gatherings.
But still, the dynamics of that scene rankle.
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Yes, I agree how he'd be seen by the rest of the world.
Let me ask you: What doesn't emotionally 'feel' right to you in that scene? Does something feel off? I mean beyond him being there with Alma and her grocer, cuz we know that happens often. My nieces asked my sis to invite my ex to their place for dinner, when I was in Florida one year. She didn't do it, but its interesting that they wanted him there...So I can see the sense of completing the family at the holidays.
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I can almost hear Alma's thoughts as Ennis arrives: "See, Ennis? This is how normal people act. Civilised, decent. We treat people properly, do the right thing, work hard to provide a nice environment for the people we're supposed to care for. See how I've found a good replacement father for these kids of yours, the ones you couldn't be bothered providing for because you were always out "fishing" - a likely story! - with that disgusting man that you had the temerity to practically screw in front of my very eyes and goshdarnit even though you're a louse your damn daughters still love you it's not fair it's not fair it's not fair youstillgofishingwththatJackTwist AAARRRGGGHHH!!!"
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oh, ok, I get it. :D :D
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Well what about the way Alma is looking at Ennis when he is talking to his girls at the table. When he's talking about riding broncs. What do you think is the look she is giving him? To me she just looks sad, but doesn't she look away when he looks at her? Like she dosen't want to be caught looking at him. What do you think is going through her mind?
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I'll weigh in on the side of the kids asking Alma and Monroe to invite Ennis. Also, it's a small town, so they're bound to run into each other. Or, maybe it's Ennis' turn to have the kids for the weekend, and Alms short-circuits that move by having Ennis to the house rather than sending the kids to Ennis.
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Well what about the way Alma is looking at Ennis when he is talking to his girls at the table. When he's talking about riding broncs. What do you think is the look she is giving him? To me she just looks sad, but doesn't she look away when he looks at her? Like she dosen't want to be caught looking at him. What do you think is going through her mind?
She seems stressed to me; I think its a tough call. If she did invite him, he agreed to take dinner with them, to show there were no bad feelings, so I think it was her that invited him, and she did not anticipate her own feelings. I believe they just bubbled up, with her being in the safer environment, thinking there was nothing he could do to hurt her. She wanted her say. I guess I understand that, now that I think of it.
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I'll weigh in on the side of the kids asking Alma and Monroe to invite Ennis. Also, it's a small town, so they're bound to run into each other. Or, maybe it's Ennis' turn to have the kids for the weekend, and Alms short-circuits that move by having Ennis to the house rather than sending the kids to Ennis.
Perhaps it ties in with the conversation in the kitchen about him not getting married again. The girls want to see him happy, they obviously know he's not. I think the girls convinced Alma to have him over, which she was obviously uncomfortable with. A forced dinner, where the girls idolize thier father much to the angst of Alma. She wants them to view Ennis as she does, which won't happen. And there's Monroe, sittin' there all p-whipped doing whatever makes his family happy and not stepping in when the shit hits the fan in the kitchen.
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Yes, I agree how he'd be seen by the rest of the world.
Let me ask you: What doesn't emotionally 'feel' right to you in that scene? Does something feel off? I mean beyond him being there with Alma and her grocer, cuz we know that happens often. My nieces asked my sis to invite my ex to their place for dinner, when I was in Florida one year. She didn't do it, but its interesting that they wanted him there...So I can see the sense of completing the family at the holidays.
I think there's just something 'off' about the scene but can't quite put my finger on it.
Maybe it's just tthat I can' conceive of an 'ex' being invited anywhere.
An aside:
I haven't seen or heard from my ex-husband in over 18 years.
Nor do I want to.
If I saw him walking down the sidewalk towards me, I'd cross the street.
I can't imagine being anywhere in his vicinity unless it was to do him bodily harm.
I am not the forgive and forget kind.
So this kind of 'amicability' is hard for me to fathom, though I know it goes on.
One of my best friends occasionally has her ex-husband over for Christmas
because she feels sorry for him.
So I realize that others may not share my initial reaction to this sort of thing.
Could Alma have felt sorry for Ennis?
Maybe,
And yes, Ennis and Alma did live in a small town.
Small town dynamics continue to elude me even though I now live in a
relatively small town myself.
But:
I find it very hard to believe that what Alma saw on those backstairs
years ago could have dimmed in her mind. It was just too harrowing.
Unless she PURPOSELY extinguished it, she must have grown to realize
(especially with the continuation of the postcards and 'fishing' trips while
they were still married) that Ennis was, well, 'different'. I'm sorry but I don't see her
forgetting or forgiving him for what she saw and what she must have surmised over
the years about her ex. So, having him over for holiday dinner seems very problematic to me.
And by the way, just what exactly did she expect to happen?
Ennis, inserted into the Thanksgiving scene, is simply the 'bull in a china shop'
and knows it. The question is, WHY is he inserted into that scene?
So we'll have the denouement moment in the kitchen?
Perhaps.
So we can truly see the 'difference' between Ennis and 'normality'?
Ennis and the rest of the world - 'his' would-be world?
What is normal?
No, that can't be it.
It is SO obvious to me that Ennis does NOT fit into that cozy atmosphere.
Oh, he wants/wanted to fit in, but he simply does not know how.
He is a recluse at heart. A loner. A man more comfortable alone or in the
company of Jack Twist. It is that simple an equation. Whether Ennis
accepts it or not is another story. Ennis just doesn't fit.
In a charming scene from a book I once read, the lead male character
(a tall, handsome, darkly brooding man - of course), was inserted into
a small parlour filled with elderly women (members of a book club),
offering him tea and twittering small talk. The author later describes
him (through the heroine's eyes), as seeming like a dragon in a roomful of wrens.
This is how I think of Ennis sometimes.
Maybe, at heart, that is the incongruity of the scene for me.
That and the fact that it is completely charmless.
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It's a complex scene. .I think here are two hints of how it came about:
Ennis took dinner with them, to show no hard feelings-it had to be hard feelings for Alma and Bill, certainly not his girls-so one of them invited him. It had to be Alma, I think. 'took dinner' is a countrified way, I believe, of accepting an invite.
As to her motives, it is entirely possible the girls whined about not seeing him for dinner-holidays were probably one of the few times, they could count on him being home, usually.
Then, after the pie, ie, the dessert, when dinner is officially over, she takes her parting shot-she gets him in the kitchen by himself. So she is not interested in humiliating him, only in getting by himself to confront him.But she could not have anticipated his violent response; she's never confronted him before, that we know of-she has no idea. In the film, we get the idea that she knows he can have violent reactions, from the 4th of July scene, so she tamps down her defiance of his wishes, a la the grocery store scene-but nothing tells us this in the SS, except in his passion for flipping her over..surely one of the things she finally got sick and tired of.....
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Here's a really cheerful thought. Maybe Alma invited him over for Thanksgiving because then she didn't have to invite him over for Christmas. You know, the girls can go and see him (which of course they would have ended up not doing, since he didn't see them for a long time) but Alma and Bill don't have to have him over beyond the duration of a meal. Is this making sense?
I mean that Txgiving wouldn't perhaps be such a bells-and-whistles occasion as Christmas so she doesn't have to put up with him for long. She pre-empts the girls' saying, Can Daddy come over for Christmas? He's all alone. She can say that he was over a month earlier - duty done. The girls would definitely want to see him at Christmas.
The practical part of me says that AP needed a situation where Alma could say her piece and Ennis could react.
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The impression I got was that she invited him over because she felt sorry for him. When she made that comment about how she and the girls wish he would get married again it made me think that. She knew he'd be alone otherwise. I do agree that maybe the girls asked her to also.
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Oh, yeah. She picked a good setting-and a bad one-for Alma to out him. It shows how imperfect life really is.....
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Oh, yeah. She picked a good setting-and a bad one-for Alma to out him. It shows how imperfect life really is.....
Some random thoughts:
It also shows how Alma gave no thought to repercussions. She obviously did not think it through or she
would not have forced the issue at a family gathering. This tells me that she did not PLAN anything specific,
or if she did, she bungled it. Or maybe she foolishly expected that Monroe would protect her?
Anything's possible, I suppose.
Maybe she even thought to blast the family apart by having Ennis's truth come out
in full force at last? To set herself up as the ultimate victim in the eyes of her family?
To pry the girls away from their father?
Well, she does that much - doesn't she?
Something else:
If you think about how life works, how things happen haphazardly, how it all seems like a crap shoot,
then this scene is doubly telling in that in the middle of a 'planned' event - i.e. a venerable
holiday celebration such as Thanksgiving, with all its trappings - chaos still raises its ugly head.
Chaos in the form of the 'stranger' at the table. What's that old saying? Man plans.
God laughs. Something like that.
In my opinion, Ennis is just that: a stranger at the table.
He can't help it.
Obviously, in viewing both Thanksgiving scenes in the film, we're meant to feel the tension that still
simmers beneath the surface in Jack and Ennis and their respective families. This is how both men's
inchoate unhappiness touches everything around them. It is inescapable.
No matter where Jack and Ennis are, in their separate lives,
they'd rather be somewhere else.
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I think you've explained, Rose, what bothers us all about it: Its like watching a car go over a cliff-you can't stop it, and you're horrified.
That liine about 'their separate and difficult lives' always has bore more thinking, IMO, than we've given it.
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It's Jack who remembers the DE as being that single moment in their s & d lives. How does he know it's that for Ennis? Or is it just a case that the idea couldn't be expressed any other way by AP? (I'm always aware of the fact that this is a written story with all the problems of word wrangling which occur.)
Would Ennis have ever told Jack of incidents like this? I doubt it, but he might have mentioned stuff which Jack could figure was brought about through Ennis's paranoia or whatever. In the severely limited time together, how much extraneous stuff did they ever talk about? How much did they really know about each other?
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It's Jack who remembers the DE as being that single moment in their s & d lives. How does he know it's that for Ennis? Or is it just a case that the idea couldn't be expressed any other way by AP? (I'm always aware of the fact that this is a written story with all the problems of word wrangling which occur.)
Would Ennis have ever told Jack of incidents like this? I doubt it, but he might have mentioned stuff which Jack could figure was brought about through Ennis's paranoia or whatever. In the severely limited time together, how much extraneous stuff did they ever talk about? How much did they really know about each other?
On the other hand, Mini A, by the time of the DE both Ennis and jack have swapped quite a few stories about their past that would justify Jack characterizing them as s&d.
I mean, Ennis has told about his parents, brother, sister, no place for him with them, the tire iron story, (to which Jack says' "you saw that", implying that even he thought that might be a bit much to expose a small boy), Alma and the divorce. Also, Jack, to me at least, is a fairly perceptive fellow especially when it comes to Ennis. He certainly knows enough about him not to push the "cow and calf" idea very often, if ever. And when he does, it is only out of total frustration.
And even if it is AP talking, I certainly don't have trouble accepting the term s&d for both of them and I don't really know THAT much more about Ennis than Jack supposedly does.
Does this make sense? I don't know.
I am a bit adrift about everyone's thoughts about Alma and the Thanksgiving confrontation, however.
For some reason that passage makes perfect sense to me in terms of both the logic that ennis would be there and what appears to me to be a very natural reaction from Alma.
I dont know, maybe I just come to it with a different history or perspective.
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It's Jack who remembers the DE as being that single moment in their s & d lives. How does he know it's that for Ennis? Or is it just a case that the idea couldn't be expressed any other way by AP? (I'm always aware of the fact that this is a written story with all the problems of word wrangling which occur.)
Would Ennis have ever told Jack of incidents like this? I doubt it, but he might have mentioned stuff which Jack could figure was brought about through Ennis's paranoia or whatever. In the severely limited time together, how much extraneous stuff did they ever talk about? How much did they really know about each other?
I'd wager, maybe less than we are lead to believe, in the film version, at least with regard to anything related to their respective sexuality.
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I think you've explained, Rose, what bothers us all about it: Its like watching a car go over a cliff-you can't stop it, and you're horrified.
That liine about 'their separate and difficult lives' always has bore more thinking, IMO, than we've given it.
It is a brilliant line. A brilliant summation.
It is so beautifully spare. So in keeping with the tone of the story.
Wisely left open to interpretation.
Almost from first glance, I've thought that 'difficult' meant the strain of maintenance.
Maintaining their facades, just plain living through their time apart, waiting for the next time.
Keeping themselves sane.
Keeping themselves from revealing TOO much.
Keeping themselves from giving the show away.
Just keeping themselves.
I've also thought that the word 'separate' adds the right brutality.
And 'their' reminds us that BOTH men suffered (and continued to suffer as the years
passed), from the strictures, self-imposed or not, placed on their lives.
One didn't suffer more than the other.
In that they appear to be equal.
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On the other hand, Mini A, by the time of the DE both Ennis and jack have swapped quite a few stories about their past that would justify Jack characterizing them as s&d.
I mean, Ennis has told about his parents, brother, sister, no place for him with them, the tire iron story, (to which Jack says' "you saw that", implying that even he thought that might be a bit much to expose a small boy), Alma and the divorce. Also, Jack, to me at least, is a fairly perceptive fellow especially when it comes to Ennis. He certainly knows enough about him not to push the "cow and calf" idea very often, if ever. And when he does, it is only out of total frustration.
And even if it is AP talking, I certainly don't have trouble accepting the term s&d for both of them and I don't really know THAT much more about Ennis than Jack supposedly does.
Does this make sense? I don't know.
I am a bit adrift about everyone's thoughts about Alma and the Thanksgiving confrontation, however.
For some reason that passage makes perfect sense to me in terms of both the logic that ennis would be there and what appears to me to be a very natural reaction from Alma.
I dont know, maybe I just come to it with a different history or perspective.
Strictly speaking, at the time of the DE the Earl story hadn't been told, but of course it had by the time Jack revised the DE in his mind. I'm inclined to think the boyhood stuff may have got a more detailed telling than the adult day-to-day stuff. The boyhood experiences - pissing scene, parents' deaths, Earl, etc - are there to both impart info to the reader and to bond J&E together, although neither understands the full impact of the stories at the time.
The way that Ennis (in the film) queries Jack about the "normality" of his relationship with Lureen makes me think that a lot of things just didn't get discussed often, if at all. Ennis having a major fight with Alma was possibly something that slipped the memory when updates were exchanged at the next trip because such a fight had Implications.
I agree, garyd (Definitely mark the date! That's twice in one day!) that Alma's reaction was natural. I think she chose a moment when she felt safe, and started to get a few things off her chest but didn't realise until too late just how much suppressed anger and frustration was about to come pouring out.
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I agree, garyd (Definitely mark the date! That's twice in one day!) that Alma's reaction was natural. I think she chose a moment when she felt safe, and started to get a few things off her chest but didn't realise until too late just how much suppressed anger and frustration was about to come pouring out.
Good lord, has there been some major disruption in the force?
Absolutely agree. Don't know if she necessarily "chose" the moment, ie. I don't know if it was premeditated as part of her decision to invite Ennis for dinner but it was perhaps precipitated by her annoyance that he was coming off as such a great and interesting guy to the girls.
At the very least that had to be extremely annoying. I mean no body, I don't care HOW progressive they might think they are, delights in having their EX come across as a "hero" to the kids that THEY have nurtured and clothed and helped with homework and stayed awake all night with the flu.
C'mon, it bound to piss you off.
Time to put the guy in his place! (But not in front of the kids, you would just come off as the villian cause the kids are too young to understand)
And, as you say, she is in a safe place, physically and emotionally. She has forged a new life for herself and the girls and she feels pretty safe in saying things that she might not otherwise broach if she were still dependent upon Ennis for a roof over her head.
I think the Thx giving scene is one of the most brilliant in the entire SS. Excellent placement and story exposition combined with brilliant character exposition of both Alma and Ennis. Would love to discuss it further.
As for DE. Yes, Earl has not been discussed at the actual time of the DE but it HAS been discussed by the time Jack thinks back on it at the trailhead.
So , it just seems to me that it is fairly possible that Jack might have had enough insight to consider that both of them had lived separate and difficult lives.
It is, is it not, in retrospect that he considers it the "one artless....etc"?
Of course,the style adopted by AP to write the story tends to lend itself to this type of ambiguity.
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If it's not too late to weigh in here. . .
Could Alma have felt sorry for Ennis?
Maybe,
And yes, Ennis and Alma did live in a small town.
Small town dynamics continue to elude me even though I now live in a
relatively small town myself.
But:
I find it very hard to believe that what Alma saw on those backstairs
years ago could have dimmed in her mind. It was just too harrowing.
Unless she PURPOSELY extinguished it, she must have grown to realize
(especially with the continuation of the postcards and 'fishing' trips while
they were still married) that Ennis was, well, 'different'. I'm sorry but I don't see her
forgetting or forgiving him for what she saw and what she must have surmised over
the years about her ex. So, having him over for holiday dinner seems very problematic to me.
I think it may be important to note, that as far as Alma is concerned she occupies the position of strength, the moral high ground here. She was the dutiful wife, did everything that could be legitimately expected of her, never descended to unfaithfulness, never strayed into "unnatural" territory. Sure, she was hurt by what Ennis did, but she can (if she wishes) take solace in the fact that she's the (innocent) victim. So why not invite Ennis over for Thanksgiving, if that's what the girls want? She knows he failed her in just about every way he could; she must assume that he knows it too. Maybe the invitation (if there was one) was a bluff. . . Maybe she thought he would be too ashamed to show up, given their history, whereas Ennis' own view of his history with Alma sort of blinders him to those considerations.
In the end, of course, she overestimates her strength, and can't resist digging in a needle or two.
So we can truly see the 'difference' between Ennis and 'normality'?
Ennis and the rest of the world - 'his' would-be world?
What is normal?
No, that can't be it.
It is SO obvious to me that Ennis does NOT fit into that cozy atmosphere.
Oh, he wants/wanted to fit in, but he simply does not know how.
He is a recluse at heart. A loner. A man more comfortable alone or in the
company of Jack Twist.
<lightbulb??> How about this: we're given this scene because it is (like so much else in the story) a shadow cast by the life Ennis was supposed to be living. Might it be more accurate to say that the cozy atmosphere doesn't fit Ennis, because Jack Twist isn't there at that table with him?
Cheers,
Dagonet
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i thought the only reason alma invited ennis over to thanksgiving is because she felt sorry for him and the girls probably wanted to see him and i think this is proved when, in the kitchen, she says to him 'me and the girls worry about you being on your own' or something like that
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Hi, Marz...do you think she really does feel sorry for him and worries about him? what about the moment after, when she outs him about Jack-do you see that as unrelated, or as a response to something else? thanks.
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Hi, Marz...do you think she really does feel sorry for him and worries about him? what about the moment after, when she outs him about Jack-do you see that as unrelated, or as a response to something else? thanks.
In my opinion, EVERYTHING that happens between Ennis and Alma is a response to 'something else'.
Probably everything between Ennis and Jack as well. Know what I mean?
The funny thing is, there's a lot of single-mindedness in this story but there's also a lot of foundering.
I can't help thinking that Alma had an underhanded reason to invite Ennis to holiday dinner.
I don't ascribe the same sort of familial tenderness to her as you guys do.
(Though, of course, I could be totally wrong and it could be my own jadedness at work here.)
That line, marz, about 'the girls and I worry about you...' seems disingenuous.
If anything, Alma would want Ennis to marry again for the sake of 'normality' or to put it another way,
so she can put a period to the end of a sentence. Know what I mean?
What she saw on the back stairs could possibly be kept under wraps if Ennis would only marry again.
Prove her wrong in some way.
But then Ennis gives a dismissive answer to her attempt at earnest concern, and she bites back
with her little story of the untouched fishing creel (or whatever it was).
Ennis overreacts and both of them, I think, learn a lesson of sorts.
And something else:
I was thinking about Jack Twist (no surprise, there), and it occurred to me yet again, how
little we know about him until the very end and how deliberately we're informed that Jack was more
than the sum of his parts. We learn how Jack came to be. The shirts themselves, if nothing else,
show us that he was capable of the grand romantic gesture.
We learn just how much Ennis has lost.
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I once did a huge list of what we know about Jack and when we learn it. All the really important stuff comes too late for Ennis to change. See, if we know too much about Jack we start to lose our sympathy for Ennis. We have to understand Ennis's POV IMHO. Ennis's POV has to make some sense to us until the denouement when we and he begin to question our knowledge and beliefs .
[edited for the sake of peace - Dal]
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I also think that giving us the information late emphasises Ennis's lack of knowledge about it - like him, for instance, we thought that Jack had forgotten about the cow and calf operation and was happy enough with the fishing trips twice a year. Like him, we didn't know what Jack really wanted from the relationship (apart from time) or that he wasn't getting it.
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I once did a huge list of what we know about Jack and when we learn it. All the really important stuff comes too late for Ennis to change. See, if we know too much about Jack we start to lose our sympathy for Ennis. We have to understand Ennis's POV IMHO. Ennis's POV has to make some sense to us until the denouement when we and he begin to question our knowledge and beliefs .
[edited for the sake of peace - Dal]
Can you either post- or send me that list? if its deemed too controversial? ::)
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Hi, Marz...do you think she really does feel sorry for him and worries about him? what about the moment after, when she outs him about Jack-do you see that as unrelated, or as a response to something else? thanks.
In my opinion, EVERYTHING that happens between Ennis and Alma is a response to 'something else'.
Probably everything between Ennis and Jack as well. Know what I mean?
The funny thing is, there's a lot of single-mindedness in this story but there's also a lot of foundering.
I can't help thinking that Alma had an underhanded reason to invite Ennis to holiday dinner.
I don't ascribe the same sort of familial tenderness to her as you guys do.
(Though, of course, I could be totally wrong and it could be my own jadedness at work here.)
That line, marz, about 'the girls and I worry about you...' seems disingenuous.
If anything, Alma would want Ennis to marry again for the sake of 'normality' or to put it another way,
so she can put a period to the end of a sentence. Know what I mean?
What she saw on the back stairs could possibly be kept under wraps if Ennis would only marry again.
Prove her wrong in some way.
But then Ennis gives a dismissive answer to her attempt at earnest concern, and she bites back
with her little story of the untouched fishing creel (or whatever it was).
Ennis overreacts and both of them, I think, learn a lesson of sorts.
And something else:
I was thinking about Jack Twist (no surprise, there), and it occurred to me yet again, how
little we know about him until the very end and how deliberately we're informed that Jack was more
than the sum of his parts. We learn how Jack came to be. The shirts themselves, if nothing else,
show us that he was capable of the grand romantic gesture.
We learn just how much Ennis has lost.
yeah agree 100% with the bold comment, its like its so SHE can say my ex-husband is 'normal' because hes re-married again i think she feels it would make her (Alma) look normal if the father of her children was re-married, in her head life would be 'back to normal' if ennis re-married, like she has done
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I once did a huge list of what we know about Jack and when we learn it. All the really important stuff comes too late for Ennis to change. See, if we know too much about Jack we start to lose our sympathy for Ennis. We have to understand Ennis's POV IMHO. Ennis's POV has to make some sense to us until the denouement when we and he begin to question our knowledge and beliefs .
[edited for the sake of peace - Dal]
Can you either post- or send me that list? if its deemed too controversial? ::)
Sure. It's not profound or anything. I wrote it ages ago.
What do we know about Jack in the first part of the story?
That he came from a poor background and that he was still doing it very tough.
That he had worked on Brokeback the previous year (N.B. "…each glad to have a companion where none had been expected.")
That he was fond of a drink.
That he was infatuated with the rodeo life.
That he was crazy to get out of Lightning Flat.
That he claimed to be saving for a place of his own.
That he was fond of "a little dog" (i.e. had a soft spot for small, under-privileged creatures like the runt of the litter.)
What do we learn during the time on Brokeback?
That he was inclined to complain about things.
That his parents were still holding on to their ranch.
That his father had been a well-known rodeo rider but, although he put Jack on the woollies, he had never passed on any of his secrets and had never come to watch Jack ride.
That his mother believed in the Pentecost.
What do we learn during the reunion?
That he was optimistic or determined (didn't think about losing when rodeoing.)
That he had been sexually active during the four years and probably with other men.
That he knew Aguirre had seen them but he declined to tell Ennis.
That he seemed to know about what other people did in such circumstances (Denver).
What do we learn later?
That he didn't have money of his own to spend until after his father-in-law died.
That he still liked and needed whiskey and sex with Ennis.
That he was restless even when with Ennis.
That he didn't like the cold.
That he really missed Ennis a lot of the time.
That his kid had learning problems.
That he felt that nothing had come to him as he would have wished.
That he'd been to Mexico to use prostitutes.
That his optimism had been worn down over the years.
That he desperately needed Ennis in a primal way although he had lingering doubts about how Ennis loved him.
That he still drank a lot.
That he spoke of Brokeback as his favourite place.
That he had "friends".
What do we learn after his death?
That he had expressed a wish to have his ashes scattered on Brokeback.
That he had spoken about Ennis several times to his parents.
That his father had beaten him, even as a young kid, and probably repeatedly (my assumption) and that the mentioned beating came about when his father got into a "crazy rage" one time.
That he had been circumcised, a thing which bothered him and which he described in terms of being "branded".
That he felt separated from his father. " No way to get it right with him after that."
That he had been Ennis's ministering angel.
That he had preserved the shirts from that first summer.
That his mother was reserved but loving and that his father was a bastard.
That his upbringing was pretty sterile.
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This reminds me of one I did ages ago, putting the story in chronological order (instead of the order in which we find things out). It might be interesting looking at it that way for each of the characters, and what they know and don't know.
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Yes, I recall you doing that. I think it's a very important aspect of the story. It can get confusing remembering who knows what and when.
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Ok, just looking at that list......well, I'd love to hear what some of the newbies think of it..It's rather stunningly clear how Jack's layers are gradually revealed from his outward appearance to his inward reality. And we discover along with Ennis what the real truth is. Its a nifty tool, no?, to keep the reader emotionally entwined in the story, because there is so much you don't find out until the end...but underneath, we may be wondering and don't even know it.
For in the opening scenes the person we see on BBM is only hinted at, with regards to the person we see at the end. 'for he loved a little dog', for example, might make you ask, 'why'? but you may not understand why you are asking it....He was a tough ranch kid and somehow that just doesn't fit. Its a clear hint as to what is going on underneath, but you just don't know it yet.
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It's unlikely that in any story the author will present the characters fully formed at the beginning, and not reveal anything new thereafter. Wouldn't be much of a story.
The list is interesting, but does not appear to be relevant to a particular scene. Perhaps character development of JT?
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It's unlikely that in any story the author will present the characters fully formed at the beginning, and not reveal anything new thereafter. Wouldn't be much of a story.
The list is interesting, but does not appear to be relevant to a particular scene. Perhaps character development of JT?
obviously... My point was the difference in what we know specifically about Jack and why it is held at bay....Ennis's later big character surprise comes in the DE, but we already knew he was homophobic (INNQ). Jack we had no idea craved such a primal embrace. It is a stark contrast to the earlier representation of his character, but yes, that probably goes in the character thread.
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Yes, to the character thread...
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I think that this scene is the scene that sets the rest of their lives in motion. I think that Jack for the first time actually felt embarrassed, ashamed that he was that stupid and naive to come to find Ennis and make the assumption that they would be together. He has heard it from Ennis at the reunion that the two of them living together would and could never happen. He put that away in his mind, his heart told him something different. He honestly believed that he had time on his side, after all Ennis agreed to see him up in the middle of nowhere, which to Jack was the same as Ennis saying, I want to be with you no matter what we have to do. He didn't care at that time because like I said he thought he had time on his side. Ennis made a major decision to still see him, he still wanted to be with him and to Jack that was enough to keep his hope alive.
Then the divorce and he ran to his lovers side thinking that this would change the course they were already on, one step closer to his dream. He had no idea that this trip, this mistake would change his life for the worse. He has been living in a living hell wanting, needing, hoping, and filling his head with the this ideal life he had mapped out for him and Ennis, a life that he could see so clearly, and so simply.
The blinders were torn off Jack in one long agonizing moment, the look he saw for the first time on Ennis's face. When that truck drove by and Ennis couldn't take his eyes off it, the look of fear, shame that was staring Jack in the face was something he could not ever erase from his mind. He had built himself up to believe that one day he and Ennis would be happy truly happy, but that day he seen that they had not made one bit of progress, if anything they had gone backward instead. Ennis was that same scared, confused, terrified boy again, up on BB. The steps he thought they had taken were not what he thought at all.
It seemed that Jack wanted to crawl under the nearest rock, he couldn't get away fast enough, he had made such a fool of himself. He put himself in a postion to let Ennis destroy any self pride he had, any dreams, any illusions of himself and Ennis. He walked right into it, eyes wide open, he was crushed.
The drive home had to have been one of the longest, confusing, soul searching rides of his life. He was angry at Ennis and himself for what had just happened. He wanted to strike out at him, but how could he possibly hurt that man that doesn't seem to have feelings or heart.
He seen Mexico and I think that at that moment he was going to punish Ennis by being with another man. In his mind this would hurt Ennis, he definitely wasn't thinking straight, because really he only hurt himself. He had finally hit bottom. He didn't know what the hell had just happened, what the hell he just done in that alleyway, because Ennis would never know what he had just done. He didn't want to admit to himself that he had lowered himself to that point never mind telling Ennis.
I believe at that moment he had set himself in destruct mode. There was no turning back the hands of time to the first summer on BB, or the breath taking reunion kiss. He had destroyed in his mind anyway what all that meant, with that long walk down that alley, now what does that make him, is he now what Ennis has fought not to be? Ennis's idea of what being gay is?
jwm
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jmw,
Which scene?
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.....The drive home had to have been one of the longest, confusing, soul searching rides of his life. He was angry at Ennis and himself for what had just happened. He wanted to strike out at him, but how could he possibly hurt that man that doesn't seem to have feelings or heart.
He seen Mexico and I think that at that moment he was going to punish Ennis by being with another man. In his mind this would hurt Ennis, he definitely wasn't thinking straight, because really he only hurt himself. He had finally hit bottom. He didn't know what the hell had just happened, what the hell he just done in that alleyway, because Ennis would never know what he had just done. He didn't want to admit to himself that he had lowered himself to that point never mind telling Ennis.
I believe at that moment he had set himself in destruct mode. There was no turning back the hands of time to the first summer on BB, or the breath taking reunion kiss. He had destroyed in his mind anyway what all that meant, with that long walk down that alley, now what does that make him, is he now what Ennis has fought not to be? Ennis's idea of what being gay is?
jwm
Oh, never 'tell Ennis' is the least of it. I think what Jack wants, in that moment, in that time, is to hurt Ennis in the way that lovers have
always done. He WANTS Ennis to INTUIT (somehow, someway) that he [Jack] has been in an alley in Mexico with some male whore
and what's more, Ennis has driven him to it. Ennis has driven Jack to debase himself. It is all Ennis's fault. And yet, for whatever reason,
I do not see this as weakness in Jack. I am NEVER outraged at what he's doing. I see no spite in Jack.
That's the wonderful trick of the scene and the way it is set up for us.
I'm not angered or condeming of Jack's actions because I understand that it is DESPERATION.
And very obviously he does not want to have to tell Ennis. (Something he easily could have done -
Look what you've driven me to, and all that...) Yet I'm convinced he wants Ennis to know and it probably rankles
him later that Ennis seems oblivious. (Though we know in the final confrontation that Ennis, despite
appearances, was never completely oblivious.)
Back to Mexico:
Against all reason. Jack is not being sneaky at all. After all he goes down that alleyway quite out in the open.
It is the 'after' that gets swallowed up in darkness. A darkness I can't help seeing as Jack's inner self.
Could it even be Jack's dark descent into hell?
Too romantic?
Too dramatic?
I don't know, that blackness swallowing both men is pretty damn ominous.
I even have an idea that by hurting himself in this low way, that Jack imagines he is also hurting Ennis.
There's a war inside Jack in those moments where, as you say, jwm, he begins his self destructive slide.
This might even be seen as Jack's revenge on Ennis.
And who could blame him?
This is the moment in the film when Jack begins to die.
He has given up hope.
But still he continues to meet Ennis year after year.
If this doesn't prove his love than I don't know what does.
This is the beauty of Jack's spirit, I think.
This is probably why Ennis, despite his own abyssmal doom and gloom nature,
can't help but continue to love him.
As for your intriguing idea that Jack in those moments becomes what Ennis fears most,
yes I agree. Hence Ennis telling Jack later, "Them things I don't know...should I come to know them..."
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Oh, never 'tell Ennis' is the least of it. I think what Jack wants, in that moment, in that time, is to hurt Ennis in the way that lovers have
always done. He WANTS Ennis to INTUIT (somehow, someway) that he [Jack] has been in an alley in Mexico with some male whore
and what's more, Ennis has driven him to it. Ennis has driven Jack to debase himself. It is all Ennis's fault. And yet, for whatever reason,
I do not see this as weakness in Jack. I am NEVER outraged at what he's doing. I see no spite in Jack.
No, I don't feel any outrage or anger towards Jack in this scene at all. Only pity, for the pain that he's in and the way he chooses to deal with it. I'm not so sure that hurting Ennis is part of this scene, though. If anything, I think Jack is trying to hurt himself. Perhaps validating whatever feelings of inferiority he carries around--"This is all I'm worth."
I'm not angered or condeming of Jack's actions because I understand that it is DESPERATION.
And very obviously he does not want to have to tell Ennis. (Something he easily could have done -
Look what you've driven me to, and all that...)
Interestingly, it's Ennis who ends up using the "look what you've done to me" argument in the last scene.
Back to Mexico:
Against all reason. Jack is not being sneaky at all. After all he goes down that alleyway quite out in the open.
It is the 'after' that gets swallowed up in darkness. A darkness I can't help seeing as Jack's inner self.
Could it even be Jack's dark descent into hell?
"Why this is hell, nor am I out of it.
Think'st thou that I who saw the face of God
And tasted the eternal joys of heaven
Am not tormented with ten thousand hells
In being deprived of everylasting bliss?"
--Dr. Faustus
I think that, after being rejected by Ennis, anywhere Jack went, anything he did, would have been hell. That he chooses Mexico in search of some comfort, ANY comfort is, as you say, a mark of his desperation. But I think that at this point, Jack's in far too much pain to be thinking about hurting Ennis. "Look what you made me do" is extraordinarily subtle in this context (given that it's unlikely ever to get back to Ennis), and [my apologies if this is too blunt, but it's late and I too am unsubtle right now] I'm not sure how well it fits Jack's character.
Too romantic?
Too dramatic?
I don't know, that blackness swallowing both men is pretty damn ominous.
Ominous and very powerful. Given my view of Ennis as fire, it makes perfect sense: Jack is literally moving away from the light into the darkness.
This is the moment in the film when Jack begins to die.
He has given up hope.
Well, that makes all the rest of their time together rather barren, if as far back as this Jack loses the ability to believe that things can ever get better. I think that Jack's loss of hope (if he truly has one) would have to happen right before he really tears into Ennis (and it would be the catalyst for that attack). This would be. . . another setback, another delay. Not the death of hope, just another narrowing of the future.
As for your intriguing idea that Jack in those moments becomes what Ennis fears most,
yes I agree. Hence Ennis telling Jack later, "Them things I don't know...should I come to know them..."
Interesting. . . Is this what Ennis fears most: being one of "them", being in a relationship with one of "them"?
Cheers,
Dagonet
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I'm not sure that Jack KNOWS that this is what Ennis fears most, but
it is possible that the realization dawns on him slowly over time. He vaguely
understands that Ennis is full of fears, generalized and specific.
But I think that after the divorce scene fiasco in the film, Jack FINALLY
does know that Ennis's fears have NEVER left him. Jack understands then that
Ennis's fears will NEVER allow them to have that 'happy ending' that Jack
so desperately wants and NEEDS.
He goes to Mexico full of despair and, as you say, Dag, the self-fulfilling wish
to hurt himself. But I still think, on some level, he's looking to hurt Ennis as well.
He wouldn't be human otherwise.
I am attributing to Jack the ability not only to feel despair but to feel great anger.
Yes the Mexico thing is mostly about Jack debasing himself and, as most abused
personalities do, feeding the beast that tells him every day that he's not any good
and will never get anything right, but it is also, I think, a strike at Ennis.
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Hi guys - Have you noticed that subsequent to his visit to Mexico, all of Jack's sex outside of his relationship with Ennis is sex he pays for? I'd be interested in hearing your view on this. Tx.
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For those who believe there was substance to the idea that Jack had something going on with the ranch neighbor, to the extent that he was goining to bring him up to Lightning Flats, this would not seem to be a valid hypothesis. Even under that scenario, it is unlikely Jack had enough money of his own to pay the ranch neighbor on an ongoing basis.
The short story, on the other hand, suggests that he spent money on boys when he was away at equipment conventions.
Not sure if both viewpoints can be easily reconciled. If he has the ranch neighbor, presumably for free, then why go and pay for it on business trips? And, if he is paying for it on trips, just how strong/frequent/usual is his snogging with the ranch neighbor?
All these speculations we are presented with seem, appropriately enough, as fleeting as Jack's dreams, apart from the cow & calf operation with Ennis.
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The "ranch neighbor" is mentioned only once in the short story, in OMT's hateful monologue to Ennis. In the film, he's fleshed out as the new ranch foreman whose truck breaks down on the way to the big dinner dance, where his pick-up (intended) lines are ignored, except on a superficial basis, by his rescuer, Jack.
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Not that I think the RN is even remotely substantive in terms of Jack's take on the relationship with Ennis, but he has been seeing him a few months. Perhaps we are meant to think Jack no longer seeks out Mexican assignations. He is not the young, desperate soul he once was-he's 'bitter and accusatory'. He does seem to want to settle down, but I can never buy it is with anyone besides Ennis. And the fact that the father can't even cough up a name for the guy, nor are we given any info even after Jack's death that would indicate this man was really important in Jack's life, always leads me to think, 'red herring.' The drop, before the rise-to the shirts.
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Hi guys - Have you noticed that subsequent to his visit to Mexico, all of Jack's sex outside of his relationship with Ennis is sex he pays for? I'd be interested in hearing your view on this. Tx.
Don't forget that he kept his friends addresses in his head. That sound as if he had a few standby friends for cold and lonely nights. FWIW I think that there's a pattern vaguely being shown here and this is how I see it.
After Brokeback and before Lureen - other men on the rodeo circuit.
After Lureen - who knows?
After the reunion - no-one, he lives in hopes
After the divorce - he finds ways of spending his money, i.e. he pays for anonymous sex
Then he maybe finds a few "friends", i.e. local(ish) men who are no more than sexual outlets and a bit of company.
Then the ranch neighbour, a bigger deal, a single person whose presence shows him how little he is getting from Ennis. (In the film Randall pretty much offers him the same as Ennis - fishing, sex and whiskey - and Jack has to wonder why he hasn't made much progress with the man he loves.)
I feel (with little justification beyond this vague pattern of development) that the more Jack gets outside of Ennis, the more he sees how little he really is getting from Ennis, and thus his frustration builds up to the last argument.
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I agree that Jack goes to others to obtain what he doesn't get from Ennis all that often. But I don't think he sees "how little he really is getting from Ennis" by comparison with those others. I don't think he gets all that much from them, or he wouldn't go back to Ennis every time he's available. You could say he developed something more significant with Randall/the ranch neighbour, maybe because it was easier to get things from him than Ennis, but I don't see he's offering the same as Ennis - surely Ennis doesn't offer only whiskey, sex and a retreat.
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I'm not saying that he gets more from them than he gets from Ennis, but what he gets on the side must put what he gets from Ennis into some kind of perspective. I said he gets "pretty much" the same from Randall as from Ennis, except, of course, he loves Ennis and treasures his time with him. But effectively, Ennis DOES only offer him a week or so up in the mountains, some drinking, some sex and the friendship they share. He does not offer Jack love because he can't deal with that little thing.
I feel that the comparison with the others is perhaps part of what drives Jack to desperately press for more on that last trip. It's not that he would prefer the easier time with the ranch neighbour. What he wants is the sweet life with Ennis yet in sixteen years they haven't progressed any further than they had straight after the reunion. Nothing has improved, and in fact, things have gone backwards because Jack knows after the divorce that Ennis was using his marriage as an excuse, and after Don Wroe's cabin, Jack knows that even that slight improvement will not be repeated.
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Hi, Myrine, IMO: I think that whiskey, sex and a retreat is what Ennis is only willing to offer on the surface-the only thing he'll accept and maybe admit to. Its why Jack is always craving the dozy embrace. It moved the relationship to a level that has not been achieved since.The reunion was tied to the power of the attraction/undefined feelings between them. The DE on BBM was about Jack the person being accepted, outside of sex. it went deeper than the passion between them, I think. That would be what would differentiate their annual meetings from fishing trips with sex and frienship. Jack wants the feeling produced by the dozy embrace-and we know he never got it again, because he still craves it after almost 20 years.
I tend to look at it this way:
No one, including Ennis, has given Jack the DE feelings, not since BBM. To me it is why he evolves into a drinker; becomes bitter; changes his appearance. He begins to loathe himself, because he can't get what he needs from Ennis, but has hope is there somewhere, still.. The Reunion set up his hopes; again, and Ennis, knocked them down in the same visit. What Jack failed to see at that time, was there was another obstacle besides living together, and that was tied to the lack of DE's down the road:
Ennis could not only not live with him; he could not live with himself, while harboring those feelings for Jack. He had to make them about something other than true love, I think.
So not really sure if he was actually offering more than the 'fun' of the fishing trips. And as Cassie shows him in the movie version, girls-and people in general-don't fall in love with fun.
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Okay, I've thought about it and I agree with you guys now, more or less. It was bothering me somewhat that their time together was being summed up just as a little fishing, a little drinking and a little sex, but I understand that wasn't what you were saying; that no matter how Ennis felt deep inside, he wasn't acknowledging it or letting Jack feel much of it. I'm thinking about the last time they saw each other, just before the argument, when Jack was giving his back to Ennis and Ennis was trying to soften him by recalling the nice time they had in that cabin (oh, yes, that's what you mention, Ministering angel). Ennis's "strategy" doesn't work because it's not just about "fun" (like CANSTANDIT said) and that "fun" isn't going to be long-lived either; that's not what Jack craves.
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Ah, man, this is too bleak for me. I'm going to carefully step out onto a limb here. . .
I'm not saying that he gets more from them than he gets from Ennis, but what he gets on the side must put what he gets from Ennis into some kind of perspective.
I agree with this, although I think we're coming at it from opposite directions. I believe that, if anything, all the other encounters and assignations would only underscore for Jack that what Ennis gives him is irreplaceable. Sure, it must be galling for Jack that he gets so much less from Ennis than what he wants, but even that "less" is infinitely more than what he can find in the arms of prostitutes or ranch hands or whomever.
I said he gets "pretty much" the same from Randall as from Ennis, except, of course, he loves Ennis and treasures his time with him. But effectively, Ennis DOES only offer him a week or so up in the mountains, some drinking, some sex and the friendship they share. He does not offer Jack love because he can't deal with that little thing.
Can we, actually, say this with certainty, that Ennis doesn't offer Jack love? This isn't the place to go into an exhaustive discussion of what love means to Ennis, but. . . I believe very strongly that Ennis loves Jack as much as he is able. He is happier with Jack than we ever see him elsewhere, more open, maybe even at peace. In all of Ennis' life, as all the pieces of his life and all the possibilities of his future drift away from him, the only thing he holds to--is Jack. He is nothing and nowhere because (in his mind) that is the only way and the only place he can be with Jack. So maybe I would call this love misdirected, maybe love eclipsed by fear, yet still love. But of course, ". . . love was what it was, but it was not enough. Not here."
I tend to look at it this way:
No one, including Ennis, has given Jack the DE feelings, not since BBM.
Can we, definitively, conclude this? I mean, sure, a literal repeat of the DE is extremely unlikely; it's almost impossible to dredge a moment out of the past and perfectly recreate it. And the conditions on Brokeback mountain, that sense of limitless possibilites and a future in which any destination could be reached, wouldn't have survived that first summer. By the time of the reunion, the horizon had closed in, and both of them were chained by their emotional and marital obligations. But just because the DE was never repeated *as such* doesn't necessarily mean that other moments during thier twenty years didn't come close or provide their own satisfaction. The line "would not then embrace him face to face" can be read to imply that there were other embraces in which Ennis did face him. They would have been complicated by the pressures of Jack's and Ennis' "separate and difficult lives," but I don't think there's a compelling reason to believe they didn't happen.
To me it is why he evolves into a drinker;
Welllll. . . There's a *lot* of drinking in the film, whather Jack and Ennis are together or apart, happy or sad or indifferent. I'm not sure we can rely on Lureen's comment here; I wonder how much actual drinking she would consider "a lot."
So not really sure if he was actually offering more than the 'fun' of the fishing trips. And as Cassie shows him in the movie version, girls-and people in general-don't fall in love with fun.
I think that, by the end, Ennis was offering everything he was and everything he had--he'd already sacrificed everything which didn't bring him closer to Jack. His tragedy (*their* tragedy, really), was that even Jack couldn't make him that little bit more than himself that he needed to be.
Cheers,
Dagonet
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I'm starting to think that this could fit better in their relationship thread, so I'll go there.
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Hi, Dagonet. I'd say yes, we can conclude no one gave Jack the DE feelings. If they had, why was he still coming to Ennis, and still craving the DE, after 20 years?
It was what he 'craved', without being able to understand or 'help' even in year 20-but now he looks back to year 1963 and concludes, they 'maybe never got much farther'.
I read, 'not much' meaning' very little'. It he had had a steady dose of DE-like affection, ie, sexless, accepting, etc. he'd not have gone to the downward spiral-Mexico; drinking, other men, the ranch neighbor, etc. I do not believe we are being told he drank alot as a sign of his cultural upbringing, either, for example. I think it is telling us something we would not know otherwise, beyond the vacation-like drinking he does with Ennis on the trips.
It was important enough for AP to wedge it in there....
Here's one of the smoking guns, for me: Ennis knows how unhappy Jack was, also from Lureen; when Lureen tells him he was drinking alot away from Ennis, Ennis knows two things. He was unhappy away from Ennis-and with him, too. Its the 'short leash' he was telling Ennis about it-he never got a break in life, and Ennis just added to that by not allowing him emotional happiness in either way of life-with him, or away from him. His radio battery was running down (nod to S and I)..Not that its Ennis's 'fault'-society, as repped by his father, wouldn't allow him to think he and Jack could or should-be together.
But I do think the point is being made, that Jack's drinking was a problem, enough that his wife complained to a near-starnger about it. So the conclusion for Ennis is that he is the culprit. And when he realizes later, at the Parent's house, that Jack felt he couldn't get it right with him-as implied thru him remembering Jack couldn't get it right with the father, first-he then knows something much darker: Jack thought it was his own fault.
To me,that is also the smoking gun for him not being able to quit-If he could not get it right with Ennis, of all people, the man he loved for 20 years, what was left for him in life? This is not a man to whom life offered much in the way of hope. Being human, he could only last a finite amount of time, once hope was gone.
The hope, to me, was about the feelings produced in the dozy embrace-'the single moment of artless happiness.' AFter the last scene, I think he knew-or felt-he'd never get it again.
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I think that, by the end, Ennis was offering everything he was and everything he had--he'd already sacrificed everything which didn't bring him closer to Jack. His tragedy (*their* tragedy, really), was that even Jack couldn't make him that little bit more than himself that he needed to be.
Dagonet-If I'm reading this correctly, I think we pretty much agree. But are you assuming he wanted to be 'closer to Jack'? i don't read the character that way-I think he needed Jack, and thus wanted him. I don't think he appreciated knowing that about himself. I do agree he gave all he was-and what he was, was severaly traumatized in term of his sexuality. I think he needed alot more than a little bit, to be fully present in this relationship.
But I too am digressing, so will contiinue, if desired, later, in the Ennis or relationship thread. :)
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Hi guys - Have you noticed that subsequent to his visit to Mexico, all of Jack's sex outside of his relationship with Ennis is sex he pays for? I'd be interested in hearing your view on this. Tx.
Interesting question, fofol. Don't know how I missed it the first time around. ::)
My feeling is that part of this idea of 'paying' for sex is Jack's attempt at self-protection.
Transient in thought and deed.
Plus it's easy enough and requires no emotional context.
A function of the body and not of the soul.
(Though in truth, after awhile, I imagine the soul becomes a bit weary.)
I also see this as Jack thinking himself not 'adequate' enough to seek out companionship
successfully in any other way. Perhaps that's why, in the film, the foreman's overture seems
to come as such a shock to him. Perhaps NO ONE has ever come on to him in a social
setting before. Just musing here...
Maybe 'sex for hire' fits Jack's long ago boyhood image of himself as gunslinger?
He gets to choose.
He gets to pay for what he wants when he wants it.
He can't be rejected.
Also, and in a more romantic vein, since Jack never forgot Ennis, perhaps he couldn't
imagine a 'serious' emotion-involving relationship that DID NOT include Ennis. After all,
we do accept, I think, that Jack's heart had already been handed over to Ennis up on
BBM.
Much later, after the divorce fiasco when, in the film, Jack seems to get involved with the
foreman, I don't imagine it was ever a deep emotional bargain for Jack.
It was always Ennis.
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I dunno, Rosewood. I still think those "friends" whose addresses he carefully guarded were part of his available circle of sexual partners. I don't thin Lureen is just meaning Ennis and the ranch neighbour.. She imparts two bits of information to Ennis with that comment, one that his secret was safe with Jack, and two that there were others, thus confirming the Mexico admission.
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I just got back to this, mini...I interpreted Rose's comment to be along the lines of Ennis was the true love, and the ranch neighbor was a more serious diversion than the rest of the 'friends'. Is that right, Rose? I'd agree with that, if that is your take..I think the RN is nowhere near a reason to quit-but I think he is enough of a threat that Jack feels the need to confess, albeit in disguise, to Ennis about the relationship. Jack feels guilty enough about the attachment, I think, that he has an urge to confess. Why bring it up otherwise, unless it is in anger? And actually, that may well be why he does, and partly to guage the reaction from Ennis, which of course, will not be what Jack may desire underneath, because Jack doesn't really come clean. And he also fears the 'queer' response: If he is seeing someone regularly, no matter how much he pales in comparison to Ennis-and we know he does, because it reminds Jack of how much he misses Ennis-he is still a steady thing. So Ennis is not just an exception to Jack-Jack can go with another man, however dissatisying it is. He's doing it. I just don't think he's enough of a replacement. That is a great source of Jack's pain, I think-he is trying someone else out, and he is finding its just not good enough.
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This is one of those scenes where there are small but interesting differences between film and story.
In the story, let's assume he's never said anything like this before. It feels to me that he is signaling his availability, telling Ennis that the marriage is over, maybe seeing if things have changed enough from the motel and the post-divorce. Hey Ennis, he seems to be saying, neither the father role nor the husband role is working any longer. It's as if he's going back to that mild admonition in the motel - You got your baby and wife in Texas - and pointing out that now neither of them have those commitments that Ennis placed such weight on back in 1967. Things have changed, Ennis, and maybe you have too?
As Rosa pointed out. he's also signaling his vulnerability - I could get killed doing what I'm doing. It's an eerie foreshadowing. I wonder if Jack could feel where it would all end up if Ennis didn't shift. And he throws his heart out there - I miss you so much ..... Really, he is a man at the end of his tether.
In the film, the comment is more in response to Ennis's discomfort at the news that the marriage is on the rocks. He susses Ennis out with talk about remarriage, and who knows where the convo might have led if Ennis had just said he had no-one. Would Jack have plucked up enough courage to propose again, albeit in a sideways fashion? I'd like to think that if Ennis hadn't played the non-queer card, Jack might have been able to say something like, Why don't you come and work for my daddy, or something. Instead, he has to fall back on the RN wife line, which serves the same purpose as it does in the SS but maybe is not his first choice.
I guess the difference in the two mediums is the deliberate way Jack goes about it in the film. However, in the film the thing with Randall appears to have been going on much longer than the few months of the SS so why does Jack bring it up then rather than earlier? This always puzzles me. In the SS the affair could easily (and likely) have sprung up in the space since the last fishing trip so Jack may have been prompted by it to make a move the next time he sees Ennis. But in the film he's apparently been with Randall for quite a while. So why then? Why push the issue then? I guess the Quitters would say that he has realised that the thing with Randall has legs, which then adds weight to his father's later comments. But in the SS I don't sense the seriousness of the affair. It's more than just casual sex yet it's not enough to stop Jack throwing out a line to Ennis. In fact, it feels like the reason Jack throws out the line. He has found someone who makes him understand that Ennis is, and always will be, the only one, thus leading to his despairing I wish I knew how to quit you! If he could quit, then maybe he'd have somewhere soft to land.
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That's never been a right thing for me, either, ie, Randall and Jack since 1978..I think it is deliberate, to give weight to the idea of the Other-'legs' as you say, and to give us a more poignant connection to Ennis when Jack dies, and Ennis finds out about a 'ranch neighbor' -which some of us suspect from the book, he realized much earlier, without knowing it, until he heard it.
I think it also gives power to Jack's breakdown at Ennis in the end-we know the source of his anger, on film. He's been biding his time too long, living a double life, or a triple one, really, since the late 70's. (I don't count his one-shots in Mexico as more than recreation and therapy; but the RN is a bit more disturbing; the potential is there-but like Jack and Ennis, it most likely never would come to fruition.) Jack's ashes are parted down the middle, because Jack could never be whole in life, either-he couldn't really have Ennis, but could take no one else in his place, either.
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I do think the scriptwriters tried to reduce the nothing time in the last nine or so years. In the SS Alma clears out when Junior is nine = 1973/4. The divorce follows, maybe 1974/5. Then nothing much until a few months before May 1983. In that time Jack is finding casual sex in a whole lot of places, and just waiting, pathetically hoping that Ennis will come round.
In the film the divorce is November 1975 and Randall a mere three years (or even less) later, in 1978, then three years until the final argument in May 1981. This makes Jack look less of a sad case, but also means that his ability to cling on (or maybe that's his inability to let go) is reduced somewhat. Thus Randall is more of a real thing, a genuine temptation, than he is in the SS. He also seems to be special, in a way that isn't obvious in the SS. The film doesn't mention Jack's business trips. One can believe that film Jack wasn't as promiscuous. This is in keeping with the more romanticised view of the film.
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That is absolutely true; the mythic connection between homosexuality and promiscuity had to be erased in people's minds, so they would have no recourse, no place to go, when Jack passed. No one could say, 'oh, well, in his lifestyle, he had it coming to him.' You see what I mean? I do think it was important to ensure that the audience not fall into that trap, which might've happened with a more humanized Jack-the one we know from the book, like the Ennis we know, flaws and all.
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Yes, good point. While we purists may gnash our teeth about the addition of SNIT, it can't be denied that such an approach grabbed a far wider audience by the heart and forced them to grasp the concept of true and pure love.
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Well, I'm only 2 1/2 years late finding this board. I saw the movie twice on pay-per-view, after it had left theatres, and cried both times. That was when all the shirts and jackets from the film were being sold on ebay. I remember not being able to afford $1500 for a jacket. So now I'm at the point where y'all were in 2005-2006 - obsessed.
So please forgive if this is a repeat question: Jack drives to Wy after he gets the card about Ennis's divorce. Before he gets back in his truck to leave, they both look up and see a white pick-up drive by. What's it?
I've been reading all these posts since last Sat. after Bravo showed BBM, but I didn't see this question.
Love all the insight and little things in the movie that are pointed out.
thanks.....
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Well, I'm only 2 1/2 years late finding this board. I saw the movie twice on pay-per-view, after it had left theatres, and cried both times. That was when all the shirts and jackets from the film were being sold on ebay. I remember not being able to afford $1500 for a jacket. So now I'm at the point where y'all were in 2005-2006 - obsessed.
So please forgive if this is a repeat question: Jack drives to Wy after he gets the card about Ennis's divorce. Before he gets back in his truck to leave, they both look up and see a white pick-up drive by. What's it?
I've been reading all these posts since last Sat. after Bravo showed BBM, but I didn't see this question.
Love all the insight and little things in the movie that are pointed out.
thanks.....
Welcome to the board, Crazylove! Glad you found us. I too, saw the movie late. In fact I didn't see it until after Heath's death. :( It was one of those movies I kept meaning to watch and never got around to it. I knew my bf would never watch it so I didn't get to the theater to see it then I needed to rent it when he was at work. I wished I had seen it at the theater.
About the white truck question. The impression I got from it was that they both looked at it as if they were paranoid someone might think something by seeing them together even though they were just talking. More Ennis than Jack.
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Hi, Crazylove, welcome! It's never to late to commune with like hearts/minds, is it? Glad you are here, and I almost envy your new-found interest. There is alot to considere in these threads. I hope you enjoy the process....!
I got the impression, that Jack was actually a bit miffed when he saw what Ennis was looking at, with the white truck. I think he sensed Ennis did not want them to be seen together. So I'd agree with MsMercury, it was more Ennis than Jack.
Some others have pointed out the black crow over the white truck as a foreboding of Jack's untimely death, or perhaps a symbol of homophobia, over in the Symbolism and Imagery thread, too.
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Canstandit & MsMercury
Thanks for the insight. There are so many little things to be found in this film, it's like a new discovery every time I watch it. And, as everyone agrees, Ang Lee didn't add a frame or scene that was gratuitous.
I was also wondering about the scene in Aguirre's trailer, when the phone rings. I didn't get the reason for the phone call, and then a couple people mentioned that it was to give Ennis & Jack a chance to glance at each other.
Well, I can't take another week off work just to read the boards, but I'll be back for more insight/opinions.
Thanks!
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Welcome, crazylove, to our shared obsession.
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Well hi, crazylove! Better late than never, and glad you've found us. Look around, post away, and and have fun.
Dal
Moderator
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I just got back to this, mini...I interpreted Rose's comment to be along the lines of Ennis was the true love, and the ranch neighbor was a more serious diversion than the rest of the 'friends'. Is that right, Rose? I'd agree with that, if that is your take..I think the RN is nowhere near a reason to quit-but I think he is enough of a threat that Jack feels the need to confess, albeit in disguise, to Ennis about the relationship. Jack feels guilty enough about the attachment, I think, that he has an urge to confess. Why bring it up otherwise, unless it is in anger? And actually, that may well be why he does, and partly to guage the reaction from Ennis, which of course, will not be what Jack may desire underneath, because Jack doesn't really come clean. And he also fears the 'queer' response: If he is seeing someone regularly, no matter how much he pales in comparison to Ennis-and we know he does, because it reminds Jack of how much he misses Ennis-he is still a steady thing. So Ennis is not just an exception to Jack-Jack can go with another man, however dissatisying it is. He's doing it. I just don't think he's enough of a replacement. That is a great source of Jack's pain, I think-he is trying someone else out, and he is finding its just not good enough.
First things first: A welcome from me too, crazylove.
Glad you discovered us!
Second things next:
Jo, that's what I meant. Sorry it took me so long to get back to this, I've been wandering far afield -
metaphorically speaking. I do think that the mention of Jack's 'friends' and the secrecy has one meaning for Ennis and
possibly another meaning for Lureen. She might have thought they were just drinking buddies. I've never been of the firm
opinion that Lureen DEFINITIVELY KNEW what Jack was up to. Though, of course, she probably suspected.
In my opinion, Jack was ALWAYS in love with Ennis. I mean, since he was 19 or so - the shirts tell us that.
So the 'other' men were just diversions for him. A way to assuage the pain of loss. Of never being able to
'get it right' with Ennis. He was not the celibate type and was never expected to be.
But I think IF he and Ennis had established a life together on that little ranch somewhere, Jack would have
been devoted AND most likely faithful.
Not that he WASN'T faithful in his own way all along, I mean.
Let's put it this way, he was as faithful as Ennis allowed him to be.
How's that?
And something else now that I think on it:
Someone mentioned this on the forum but I can't remember who or where.
It's something though that I completely agree with.
The idea is that people who mostly complained or didn't like Brokeback Mountain as a movie or short
story (besides the out and out homophobes, that is), would more likely accept the sexual nature
of the relationship - strictly sexual, I mean - than they accepted the fact that Jack and Ennis
ACTUALLY fell in love.
It's the love that some objected to.
Not necessarily the sex.
For, in my view, love between two men opens up another Pandora's box.
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Good point..I heard people tended to leave the theater, not during FNIT and not during SNIT-but during the motel scene with the two men in a post-coital, clearly loving embrace. That was way too 'hetero'-seeming for some people, apparently; they could not get their minds-or hearts- around pure, basic love between two men. ::)
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Mini and I were musing over the Timmy scene, you know, the Asphalt God:
What is the point of that, beyond making Ennis look either;
A) Completely out of place in a conventional sitting, ie, a secure city job;
or
B) Showing how easy a 'cover' can be, ie, how easily we put our masks on, such as a straight mask, and go about our business, while dying inside? I mean, no one in that time and place would ever imagine Ennis had spent that summer the way he did, would they? They'd see him as a big, strong working class hero, more or less. Not someone who was Q.
I find it intriguing, that shot of him kind of looking off while he scratches his ear, as if the road is endless; Mini suggested, 'he ran full throttle on all roads', something I'd never thought of here. I always sense the horrific drudgery contrasted with the open
Also, the monologue is interesting:
Timmy mentions his wife is worried about him 'breaking my back', and he tells her 'strong backs, weak minds runs in the family.' Just a little gem I've always wondered about. I think the reference to 'breaking my back' is an obvious nod to 'Brokeback Mountain', so I'm wondering if this is just another instance where we are reminded, like Ennis, of who and what Ennis is missing.
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I wondered if, after the sly reference to brokeback - which would set Ennis's thoughts in that direction - the strong backs weak minds ref is feeding Ennis's concerns that even a tough working man like himself can be weakened by the lure of forbidden fruit. I just feel that Ennis sees that succumbing to the call of the dirt road is a weakness that must be fought. The women are there to help such happenings, hence his anger at Lureen.
I'm sure there's heaps to this little scene, beyond the obvious stuff of Ennis doing a shit job that he hates, because now he's the responsible married man.
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You could say that Ennis is covering up the dirt road, if you liked.
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ba-da-BING-off with thee to Symbolism and Imagery.... ;)
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I've been thinking a bit more about Timmy the asphalt god, and another scene, the 4th July scene with those tasty bikers. None of them are exactly up to Jake G's standard of beauty. Neither is the driver of the truck that Ennis attacks.
Is it a coincidence that the men Jack meets, Jimbo, Randall, the beautiful Rodrigo, are all attractive in their own way? Is there a point being made that Ennis simply refuses to see any other men in a potentially attractive light?
Take Timmy - if his jeans were any lower, the film would lose its rating. His fleshy, flabby body is almost offensively in-your-face. He's working literally hip to hip with Ennis, friendly, open, chattering about his wife. What point is being made here, I wonder, beyond what has already been said.
And the bikers. As unattractive a pair as you're likely to meet, yet displaying an aggressive "masculinity" in their conversation about "pussy". Why make them bikers? Is it just so we can imagine that they aren't Riverton residents? Or is a point being made about the whole leatherclad, bike-as-penis-substitute thing? Are they "real men" whom Ennis has to conquer to prove his own masculinity?
I'm just musing here. Muse along with me, why don't you.
(FWIW I'm not being rude about bikers, just their image. I used to ride a motorbike - or do you Americans call them motorcycles? - and most of the riders I knew were really just pussycats underneath the leather.)
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Asphalt gods and bikers.......
I think I'll mention one thing we talked about off-thread:
Timmy is standing within stroking distance of Ennis, half undressed-are we meant to think he is so comfortable with Ennis, he'd never guess anything but that Ennis was straight? Are we being told how other men, those not in love with him, might view him? This Timmy is a chatterbox, like Jack was; but whereas Ennis is trying to ignore Timmy-he was intensely interested in Jack's chat. I am starting to think Timmy is just another reminder of Jack's absence, and the open-shirtedness gives it an erotic connotation-not that Timmy himself is particularly erotically charged, as a character.... ;D ;D
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I've been thinking about the bikers again. They are two men who ride around the place together on their mechanical horses, safe from any homophobic accusations because of who and what they appear to be. For all we know, they might curl up together at night with nary a humpable frog within cooee.
Maybe there's a connection between the scenes re. outward appearances, as you pointed out with Timmy, Jo. I'll have to give it more thought. So many threads, so little time.
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And the bikers. As unattractive a pair as you're likely to meet, yet displaying an aggressive "masculinity" in their conversation about "pussy". Why make them bikers? Is it just so we can imagine that they aren't Riverton residents? Or is a point being made about the whole leatherclad, bike-as-penis-substitute thing? Are they "real men" whom Ennis has to conquer to prove his own masculinity?
I'm just musing here. Muse along with me, why don't you.
(FWIW I'm not being rude about bikers, just their image. I used to ride a motorbike - or do you Americans call them motorcycles? - and most of the riders I knew were really just pussycats underneath the leather.)
I will muse with you. The bikers scene is crucial in understanding Ennis’ dilemma. In all societies, these archetypical characters, the hairy biker, the Stepford wife, the flaming queen, the uptight aristocrat, etc. are insecure people who have decided to squeeze themselves into a narrow role, in order to feel they have a strong identity. This gives them the security they crave. They are absolutely terrified of feeling that they are walking on shaking ground and they are the most prone to despise those who do not conform to a specified standard. We usually react negatively towards these strong archetypes because we know that our identities are not as set as theirs. We are aware, very often unconsciously, that we are permanently walking on shaking ground.
Ennis, more than anyone else, is walking on swampy terrain and senses that he is not a man’s man, like the bikers, and simultaneously he is well aware they are the kind of men that could harm him, or Jack, if the truth came to light. That is why he reacts so violently towards them, because he is completely unable to come to terms with the unavoidable truth of his love for Jack and he feels, wrongly, that he is not completely "man". Frustation is the mother of agression, and if Ennis is not frustrated I don't know who is. And that, sadly, is the point that is being made here.
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That's some pretty nice musing, Adrift. You make a good point about those archetypal characters. I think this is one of Ennis's big problems, that he feels isolated in his identity. He asks Jack if "this happen a other people" because he clearly can't see any evidence of it happening in his everyday life. Of course, the one example he did have of a positive role model, i.e. a committed gay relationship, is the very one which causes him to fail to see what he really has with Jack. How can he identify with Earl and Rich when he's seen what society will do to such men?
He knows that most men don't have a "thing" for their friends yet he also "knows" he's not queer. so that leaves him in a very small box. If only he'd had a positive image to follow, but that is the tragedy of the story.
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I think also, it is very important to look at the framework: Two guy on bikes-horses?-obviously wonderers, doing what they want, not giving a rat's ass about society. They could indeed, as Marian said, be closeted.
I think Ennis probably does have a kind of envy about them, deep down, in a way.. They also are united in the very aggressive, obnoxious-and probably drunk- talk about the female anatomy-another thing to remind Ennis of what he simply doesn't relate to, as a man. (In a very negative way, it points out what Jack and Ennis NEVER would talk about together, ie, being horny about women....)
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I don't think I agree with you all. I don't think Ennis was thinking about Jack, his sexuality, or anything like that. It was well over a year (probably 2) since the summer on Brokeback, he was married with a kid in tow now, he worked and was head of the household. These two jerks started saying very offensive things in front of his wife and baby. He's been a fighter his whole life (from the SS - a body built for fighting and the horse) and he reacted in a way that was not unreasonable. I'm not sure why Ang Lee included this scene in the movie - but I never related it to Ennis' sexuality struggles at all.
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standingit, I think what you say is the surface layer of the scene, and if you asked Ennis what was going on he'd probably agree with you.
However, the question is: what is the scene telling us? We already know Ennis has a violent streak. In the film he demonstrates that before this scene by punching Jack. The story tells us plainly that he had uncommonly quick reflexes and a body built for fighting.
But what is it that sets him off? Does he just fight for the hell of it?
We get three occasions in the SS - the punch on the mountain, the attack on Alma at Thanksgiving, and the subsequent short and dirty fight at the Black and Blue Eagle Bar. Plus there's the implied violence in the threat "What I don't know........" and the description of him beating up his brother until KE got the message. Ennis seems to fight only when his masculinity is threatened.
If you watch the 4th July scene closely you'll see that he is reasonable until the bikers mention that he's probably not putting it to his wife, then he stands up and approaches them. A bit more talk then "You oughta listen to your old lady" says one, and wham, in comes Ennis. It could be viewed as just an escalating situation yet it is the two slurs on his manhood which goad him into action. He may not be consciously thinking about Jack but at the back of Ennis's mind is the thought that he had sex with a man and that therefore he is maybe not quite the man he thinks he is.
Incidentally, there's a story that in the film the day E&J meet is 5th June (apparently some significant day in the livestock calendar), the day Junior is to marry Kurt, and that FNIT is 4th July, one month later (as the moon in the film confirms) and so Ennis's jumpiness is a reflection of that fact.
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Some very interesting points!Questions about those dates - how do we know in the film that the day they meet is June 5? Is June 6 historically the day the ewes make the trek up to pasture? Or is there a calendar in Aguire's office that I don't recall? Also, I don't understand the moon reference - how do we know that FNIT is July 4th? You think it is etched into Ennis' memory that July 4th is THE night - the anniversary?? Maybe - but I'm not sure
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Also, I don't understand the moon reference - how do we know that FNIT is July 4th? You think it is etched into Ennis' memory that July 4th is THE night - the anniversary?? Maybe - but I'm not sure
After a brief check of the movie to be sure. . . There's a full moon on the first night we see Jack and Ennis on Brokeback Mountain, and we get that brief shot of a full moon during the FNIT. I'd always thought the latter was kind of extraneous, but if it tells us the time of the FNIT is on or around July 4. . . That's some brilliant scripting.
And I don't think it would be too far out of character for Ennis to remember (and treasure) that particular anniversary.
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Some very interesting points!Questions about those dates - how do we know in the film that the day they meet is June 5? Is June 6 historically the day the ewes make the trek up to pasture? Or is there a calendar in Aguire's office that I don't recall? Also, I don't understand the moon reference - how do we know that FNIT is July 4th? You think it is etched into Ennis' memory that July 4th is THE night - the anniversary?? Maybe - but I'm not sure
We don't know in the film. It was just that Ang Lee and/or the scriptwriters were supposed to have considered it that way, and maybe passed on that information to the actors. It's more about motivation than actual knowable fact, if that makes sense.
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I think that both the Thanksgivings Ennis's and Jack's were very pivotal in the film. The roles had been cast right from day one really, and yet this time they were different.
Ennis was always the one that showed the aggression, the one with the big kahunas and Jack he was willing to be the one that just took it and kept smiling. Well Jack he finally grew some balls, while Ennis had his cut off.
Ennis tried and for the most part succeeded in being the tough guy, the man's man, and in the blink of an eye it was gone. He no longer could hide because now it was being said out loud and him hearing it blew his mind. He didn't know wheather to shit or get off the pot. He was now standing there stripped of all his lies and really no where to go, except try to regain some of his dignity,and used one of biggest tools, intimidation. Alma was having none of it and he was ready to explode, that is when he had to do something and that was pick a fight, and that didn't turn out the way he thought either, his self esteem was not redeemed then either.
Jack on the other hand shocked himself, his family by growing a big set of them. He had I believe enough of being a total door mat. He couldn't or wouldn't be like that with Ennis, because he felt he had too much to lose, there at the place he hangs his hat didn't seem to matter, he let all his pent up anger, swallowed pride and his ability to be taken seriously come out tenfold.
So for a short time the tables had turned.
jwm
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I don't think Jack came out of his Txgiving episode feeling as if he'd grown balls. I think he felt even worse than before. He certainly doesn't look like a happy man at the end of it. I think it's more to do with getting to the end of his tether than standing up for himself. Just my observation. I'm probably repeating what I said on Topic Of The Week.
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What's up with Alma's grocer (new husband) using an electric knife to carve the turkey? Is that supposed to be pointing to some weakness in his character, or is there some other symbolism/point being made??
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This is an interesting question which seems tailor made for the Symbolism and Imagery thread.
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The "Jack nasty" is awesome
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>:( I fervently agree totally to that...very true and realistic sounding.....
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There is a uniquness and awkwardness to that phrase..something a person would say, in the heat of the moment. It gets to the heart of Alma's appalled digust; and hits the right note of rage in Ennis, for both Jack-and himself. For Alma is his maternal replacement for his Mom, no? And she is completely condemning HIM, too, by saying what she says about Jack. There is not just rage and shame in Ennis at that moment-it is another more harsh rejection from Alma.
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The Del Mar Divorce scene is so sad, even though its only short it says so much
Alma is angry and if i remember rightly isn't ennis holding back tears?
alma thought she knew how her life was gonna turn out, get engaged, married, have the children, have grandchildren and live happily ever after (thats what michelle williams said) and when her marriage ends in divorce shes hurt,confused and full of shame
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Yes, it was still a little bit shameful for women to get divorced back then, wasn't it? Not as shameful for the man. I sometimes think that Alma must have had some bitterness over that - she has to initiate the divorce, she goes off with the grocer, she's the "scarlet woman" and Ennis is the poor, innocent husband. She keeps quiet (presumably) about the "real" reason for the divorce and takes the blame, and the shame. And nothing close to an apology from Ennis - just more blame - "once burned". No wonder that "Jack Nasty" ends up bursting out.
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I've gone full circle and back on that scene....I was mad at Ennis; then mad at Alma; then I've gone back again, but I've come to a more even-keeled pov on it. They were basically, as a couple, a car crash, in the end, if one in slo-mo. It was just a matter of time.
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I've gone full circle and back on that scene....I was mad at Ennis; then mad at Alma; then I've gone back again, but I've come to a more even-keeled pov on it. They were basically, as a couple, a car crash, in the end, if one in slo-mo. It was just a matter of time.
I feel sorry for Alma - always have. But in that particular scene, I get angry with her. Ennis's biggest "sin" in this scene is uttering "once burned" (in the SS we hear that the divorce left him with the vague sense that he had been wronged). Ennis is trying to keep the peace and be there for the girls for Thanksgiving - even trying to make them laugh so as to not play the "sad daddy" - I think her timing was all wrong. Why did she have to say, right after the Thanksgiving meal, that she and the girls worried about him and than he should get remarried. Of course that was going to corner him a bit. His phrase of "once burned" was a way to deflect and try to get out of the corner. Now, up until this point, Ennis does not what Alma ever really saw at the "Reunion" scene - has Alma ever referenced it as a reason for the divorce? (she cites other things in the SS - his disinterest in getting a better paying job, never wanting to go out on the town, etc.). Now, out of the blue these years later, on Thanksgiving night, she brings up Jack Twist, the note in the creel case, that case never seeing water - and now out comes the accusation of Jack "Nasty" - that was not the time, the place, or the way to do that! So, in this instance, I am so mad at Alma. It's too late - move the hell on - it's too late to bring this up now and certainly not an appropriate venue!
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^^^^^
I recall when I first joined up, that many male posters were really po'd that she brought it up after the divorce. A lot of women seemd to understand why-she was in a safe environment, and no longer having to adhere to his rules-whatever those were. And I think there was perceived a touch of vengeance on her part. It is proabably all true; but where I feel empathy for Alma is in her being as stuck as Ennis, in having been involved in a situation that was such a social taboo. She could no more express her feelings about it than could Ennis-and like many spouses, she denied the truth to herself, I think. The embrace she had glimpsed, as AP put it, stuck under her craw for a long time, so I think she probably chose to not analyize it too closely. She lived with it, and would have gone on, until they rejected each other in bed, following her comment about using protection.That was kind of the beginning of the end, once the distraction of sex left the picture.
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I agree - I think she couldn't deal with it either, during the marriage.
I can see why it comes into her mind AFTER the divorce. She has remarried, and probably is having good sex for the first time in her life. No reason to think Bill insists on anal sex, or turns to the wall (and he can support the kids). That must be a bit of revelation. It's bound to make her think about sex with Ennis and WHY it wasn't so good, why he insisted on anal sex, why he eventually refused sex altogether.
There's maybe something in that question about why he hasn't got married, about her role in it. Maybe she wants some reassurance. Maybe, as with the note on the line, she still has a little bit of hope that things weren't as they seemed. Ennis's answer is the wrong one.
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So many 'maybes' Des. :)
I've always thought Alma's response after the 'burnt' remark totally justified. How she kept it all to herself throughout the years I'll never know but as has just been said, she was as constricted by the times as Ennis. Apart from the sex side of things, I can believe her bitterness over having lost the man she truly loved. Even though but a youngster when they met and married, she gives the impression of being quite smitten. I know sure as hell I woulda been!
I also believe that even though they were relatively naive times, Alma got the vibes and without being able to dress the turkey as it were, she understood enough about where her husbands true feelings lay. The hurt and disappointment must have been every bit as painful as those of Jack over the years. IMHO
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There is a kind of implied parallel between Jack and Alma, Andy, isn't there? She went thru a 'slow dive', another water symbol being used; and Jack felt he could drown looking up, in the end. The 'year upon year' gives this idea of an unrelenting spiral, I think, on Jack's part. But again, gradual, over 20 years. I think there are more connecting phrases, I just cannot recall them right now...
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I agree - I think she couldn't deal with it either, during the marriage.
I can see why it comes into her mind AFTER the divorce. She has remarried, and probably is having good sex for the first time in her life. No reason to think Bill insists on anal sex, or turns to the wall (and he can support the kids). That must be a bit of revelation. It's bound to make her think about sex with Ennis and WHY it wasn't so good, why he insisted on anal sex, why he eventually refused sex altogether.
There's maybe something in that question about why he hasn't got married, about her role in it. Maybe she wants some reassurance. Maybe, as with the note on the line, she still has a little bit of hope that things weren't as they seemed. Ennis's answer is the wrong one.
i never thought about Monroes role in all of this but your right. ennis was almas first lover, so maybe she didn't understand that sex can be loving and it must be nice for her to have a man thats probably had a few lovers before and we know that he always liked alma from them working at the supermarket together, and she did't have the worries of paying the bills,so she would of been more relaxed and probably had a sexlife with monroe that she would never have had with ennis (monroe giving her 100% his attention, like ennis never did)
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Yes, good point about the financial worries generally - it must have been a relief to not worry about how she was going to get by. I think there's also the suggestion that she would give up work if she could afford it - maybe she can with Monroe. So that as well would maybe make her start questionning her life with Ennis, even if she blocked things out a bit a the time - why wouldn't he take a better job? Why wouldn't he go on vacation with her and the kids? Why did he not seem to be attracted to her? Why did he insist on anal sex? And all her questions are going to lead her back to Jack, aren't they? So think I can understand why she kept quiet it during the marriage, but then had a clearer picture when in the new marriage - and that would be when the resentments started to bubble up the most.
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The movie shows Alma quite ill at ease at the thanksgiving table, almost bubbling with hidden but just below the surface tensions. Maybe this was the first opportunity they'd had in such close quarters since the divorce? Maybe Alma had been wanting to let off steam for ages but as said earlier, only now felt in a position to do so. It must have hurt her to see Ennis and the girls being so adorable together... rubbing salt into the wound. Although she more than likely had no point of reference for what she knew about her husband, she must have agonised over not only the emotional heartache of losing the man of her dreams but discovering he liked another man in the way he did. The confusion and hurt must,at times, have been unbearable.
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yeah i didn't think about the fact that alma had probably stopped working at the supermarket and had time to look after the girls and relax while she was pregnant
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Hey all of you still reading these posts. Maybe you can help me since I'm 4 years late in the game here.I've read the posts regarding the Thanksgiving scene but there is a part I still don't understand...when Alma starts off in the kitchen scene with Ennis, she states "maybe you should get married again Ennis"...why is she saying this knowing well that he is a gay man? Is she hoping that he will change his sexual orientation, and live a "normal" life with a woman?
That is my take on it...to me,she is a somewhat provincial woman brought with "traditional" religious values (we assume that despite being engaged, she and Ennis were virgins) and that to be a good person,Ennis should be married, despite his love for Jack. This is supported when he responds with "no"("once burned")..she immediately questions this with "do you still go fishing with Jack Twist?" implying that this is the reason that Ennis won't get married again. To me, Alma believes that marriage should be a goal of good Christians (or whatever religion she follows) even if it's a marriage of convenience (we assume hers to the grocer may be...he's obviously a complete opposite of Ennis,but a safe and secure mate). It may fuel her anger with Ennis knowing that she was trapped in a marriage with a man she did not passionately love partly because of Ennis' infidelity, and that if she was suffering, that he should as well.
Any thoughts?
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newfan,
That could be part of the equation. My take on her question is that she is trying to goad Ennis into a confrontation, and she succeeds in doing so. She asks what, in that context, might seem like an innocent question to any outsider (giving her an escape hatch if she needs it). Maybe she is trying to goad Ennis into 'fessing up about Jack. Maybe she is trying to salvage a bit of self-respect: it might be a greater comfort to her to realize that she wasn't woman enough for Ennis, while some other woman might be, than to realize she had let herself marry a queer. Obviously, neither horn of that dilemma is appealing, but that's what prompts her outburst, or so it seems to me. And it's not clear the way the scene plays out that she gets any satisfactory answer.
Just some thoughts,
Sandy
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Hi newfan
i think when alma says 'maybe you should get married again ennis' its got nothing to do with him its all about her
i think shes worried about the rumours that would go round if ennis didn't get re-married (and probably were already going round)
she would want ennis to re marry so that SHE wouldn't have the shame of people knowing that father of her children, was in her eyes, gay
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I think it's all about the unresolved scorn she still feels towards Ennis for the failure of their marriage. It was something she had inside for such a long time, something she couldn't let anybody know, and her questions are like the the bait for Ennis. Yes, he keeps seeing Jack Twist after all those years; I think that all the frustration and the uncomprehension of those years bubbles to the surface and erupts, and Alma feels secure now. She delivers it perfectly - something she must've thought about many, many times.
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I think it's a deliberate opening move. In a safe environment, new husband and girls nearby, in her own house, physically showing the signs that her new man is the real deal - he can get her pregnant AND support the kid - she throws in a seemingly innocent remark designed to let her segue into the stuff that's really been eating away at her for all those years. She didn't suddenly work out what was going on way back in 1967 or on all those fishing trips but she couldn't talk about it while she was still inside the relationship.
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I think Alma was looking for a confrontation-she needed to vent.
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....and now for something completely different:
Has anyone else noticed that the elderly man at the fireworks is not only at the Childress dance, he's wearing the same shirt!
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Low budget. ;D ;D ;D
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God
the way we watch this movie repeatedly and exhaustively,fishing out the smallest minutia in every scene is hysterical to me...I bet even Annie Proulx/Larry and Diana never thought about some of the points and opinons that have been brought up in this forum. :D
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...you can take that to the bank!
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Prompted by the latest Topic of the Week, I was thinking of the pickup scene with Randall, and how the mention of Roy Taylor's cabin foreshadows the news we will get in the argument about Don Wroe's cabin. It must utterly crush Jack to think that this man, on first meeting, is offering him something similar to what Ennis had provided only once and never again, even though they had a good time that year. I wonder if the mention of the cabin was a way of reinforcing the second mention? Randall really offers everything to Jack, the whole package of whiskey, fishing, sex and a cabin.
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Prompted by the latest Topic of the Week, I was thinking of the pickup scene with Randall, and how the mention of Roy Taylor's cabin foreshadows the news we will get in the argument about Don Wroe's cabin. It must utterly crush Jack to think that this man, on first meeting, is offering him something similar to what Ennis had provided only once and never again, even though they had a good time that year. I wonder if the mention of the cabin was a way of reinforcing the second mention? Randall really offers everything to Jack, the whole package of whiskey, fishing, sex and a cabin.
Do you really think that whiskey, fishing, sex and a cabin is the whole package? Plus, can it be that you've forgotten that Ennis offers to go back to Don Wroe's?
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The carte blanche was, is and always would be the eternal Ennis...
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Re: Mike's post:
I agree that the 'whole package' is not fishing, whiskey, etc. But there is an inevitable comparison being made, I think, by the filmmakers: The implication is that Jack could conceivably have a life with someone else. The fishing and cabin idea is just a painful reminder, maybe, of what he lacks with Ennis-tangible roots, a home, a committment-although, 'Jack never asked him to swear anything.' So someone might think that since he does not have the whole package with Ennis either, ie, the living together, what is the difference in the end result of going off with the RN on the fishing weekends? I think the answer to that is the reason Jack goes down the tubes: He may have looked for, and simply cannot get the feeling he got in Ennis's arms in the DE. So the RN serves a few different purposes-he reminds us of what Jack doesn't have with Ennis, by offering the same thing, on the surface; and he also reminds us of what Jack does get from Ennis, that he is no more likely to get from the RN than from anyone else.
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Prompted by the latest Topic of the Week, I was thinking of the pickup scene with Randall, and how the mention of Roy Taylor's cabin foreshadows the news we will get in the argument about Don Wroe's cabin. It must utterly crush Jack to think that this man, on first meeting, is offering him something similar to what Ennis had provided only once and never again, even though they had a good time that year. I wonder if the mention of the cabin was a way of reinforcing the second mention? Randall really offers everything to Jack, the whole package of whiskey, fishing, sex and a cabin.
Do you really think that whiskey, fishing, sex and a cabin is the whole package? Plus, can it be that you've forgotten that Ennis offers to go back to Don Wroe's?
No, it can't be. At this stage, Ennis had NOT offered to go back. IOW he had avoided going back. (If it was such a good time, why not repeat it? Ennis only repeats his offer when Jack is blowing his top.)
As for the whole package, if Jack stands back and asks himself what he gets from Ennis - what he ACTUALLY is given by Ennis - he'd have to compare it to what Randall offers. I'm not saying that Randall is any sort of substitute, or that Randall feels as deeply for Jack as Ennis does. As Jo says above, it's what's on the surface.
I feel that the film makers were making that point with this scene.
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I agree that the film makers are making a direct comparison of Randall to Ennis...ie. what Randall offers is what Ennis could not; committment. He is making the first moves, which is a change for Jack. Jack is always chasing after Ennis, wanting more and more time("never enough time..never enough") while Randall is right there, cabin, whiskey,etc. He's essentially Mexico wrapped in a convenient package that's right next door.
So the question becomes...is it all about the sex? Yes, that is what Jack needs obviously but if that's all Jack needs between biannual trists with Ennis, then so be it. But I think the film makers are testing Jack's love for Ennis...does he love Ennis enough to stay faithful? I think it's just a painful reminder to Jack in the end, of how nothing...not Mexico, not Randall or any other man, can fulfill that void that Ennis leaves when he's not there. I agree with the very insightful post that on the surface, sex is what Jack craves, but he longs for something more than that.
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IOW he had avoided going back. (If it was such a good time, why not repeat it? Ennis only repeats his offer when Jack is blowing his top.)
As far as we know, they never went anyplace twice.
No reason to believe that Ennis avoided the cabin.
Perhaps the litany of places visited is meant to demonstrate the
idea that they were never going to find what they were really looking for
way back in the middle of nowhere.
Perhaps the "shared hunger" can only be sated by doing something neither one of
them, especially Ennis, is willing or capable of doing.
Until they accept themselves for who they are,, accept the relationship for what it really is,
the hunger will persist.
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^^^^^^^^^^^
gary, what do you make of them never going back to BBM? Just for sentimental reasons, you'd think they would....
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^^^^^^^^^^^
gary, what do you make of them never going back to BBM? Just for sentimental reasons, you'd think they would....
At some level they were both afraid to go back.
They built everything on Brokeback. It is all they had.
If they had gone back and found that the imagined power was just that,
imagined, then what little that had actually been built would have been shattered.
The only way the imagined power of Brokeback could become real is if
they had the ability to accept themselves and their relationship.
The irony is, if they had been able to do that then the power of Brokeback,
real or imagined, would not be necessary.
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As far as we know, they never went anyplace twice. ~
There was one of the mountain ranges named in their travelogue, the Wind Rivers, that they went into "over and over again."
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As far as we know, they never went anyplace twice. ~
There was one of the mountain ranges named in their travelogue, the Wind Rivers, that they went into "over and over again."
Really,
don't remember that.
will look it up.
they were both always going against the wind tho
weren't they?
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^^^^^^^^^^^
gary, what do you make of them never going back to BBM? Just for sentimental reasons, you'd think they would....
At some level they were both afraid to go back.
They built everything on Brokeback. It is all they had.
If they had gone back and found that the imagined power was just that,
imagined, then what little that had actually been built would have been shattered.
The only way the imagined power of Brokeback could become real is if
they had the ability to accept themselves and their relationship.
The irony is, if they had been able to do that then the power of Brokeback,
real or imagined, would not be necessary.
That seems to imply that somehow, there was that unspoken knowledge between them..and what is it they were afraid of having shattered? What would change, between the time on BBM, and now, were they to go back? It was an improvement, emotionally-they were both getting more out of it, or at least Ennis was..but also it struck further terror in Ennis's heart. It's an interesting contradiction in a way.
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As far as we know, they never went anyplace twice. ~
There was one of the mountain ranges named in their travelogue, the Wind Rivers, that they went into "over and over again."
Wow, you are right. I have,I guess, always tended to skim over the list of places visited.
The Wind River range is interesting.
The Continental Divide runs along the crest.
Hmm..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_River_Range (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_River_Range)
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That seems to imply that somehow, there was that unspoken knowledge between them..
Yes, I think it does imply an unspoken knowledge.
And, of course, the implication is made much more explicit
when AP gives us the line
"years of things unsaid and now unsayable".
Perhaps there finally comes a time in one's life,
perhaps a point on the horizon is finally reached,
when the missed opportunities can no longer be salvaged.
"What other dungeon is so dark as one’s own heart!" Nathaniel Hawthorne inquires in The House of the Seven Gables.
"What jailer so inexorable as one’s self!"
'The uninvolving Ennis & Jack romance may form the core of Brokeback Mountain,
but what gives the story its emotional resonance is the underlying tragedy of a self-imposed unrealized life.
Through Ennis’ self-imprisonment, Brokeback Mountain reminds us all — regardless of sexual orientation —
of the opportunities we have chosen to miss in our lives in order to conform.
And of how our existence has been diminished as a result.'
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Yes, the unsayable. That seems to be indeed part of never going back to the promise of the past-the promise is void, because now Ennis knows something he did not know before: 'Jesus H, ain't nothin like this.'
And what that says about him just can't be true.
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Yes, the unsayable. That seems to be indeed part of never going back to the promise of the past-the promise is void, because now Ennis knows something he did not know before: 'Jesus H, ain't nothin like this.'
And what that says about him just can't be true.
Except, of course, it is true and he knows it.
It just “scares the piss” out of him.
Plus, when you are conditioned, above all else, to conform to somebody else’s idea of what is right, when the only journey you are willing to take is “goin around the coffeepot lookin’ for the handle”, then it is likely that the only power you will ever know is an imagined power.
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~ I have,I guess, always tended to skim over the list of places visited.
Oh -- you mustn't! My idea is that we're meant to read the whole list, range after range, without taking advantage of our option to jump past the soon-boring, all-the-same ranges. It's AP's way of tiring us and boring us, despite each lovely or exotic name -- thus she gives us a flavor of the slow fatigue wrought in J & E by the endless series of their trips through those same ranges, wonderful though each individual trip was. Sets the tone for what follows.
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~ I have,I guess, always tended to skim over the list of places visited.
Oh -- you mustn't! My idea is that we're meant to read the whole list, range after range, without taking advantage of our option to jump past the soon-boring, all-the-same ranges. It's AP's way of tiring us and boring us, despite each lovely or exotic name -- thus she gives us a flavor of the slow fatigue wrought in J & E by the endless series of their trips through those same ranges, wonderful though each individual trip was. Sets the tone for what follows.
I hope you are not kidding because I think you are spot-on.
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Yes, the unsayable. That seems to be indeed part of never going back to the promise of the past-the promise is void, because now Ennis knows something he did not know before: 'Jesus H, ain't nothin like this.'
And what that says about him just can't be true.
Except, of course, it is true and he knows it.
It just “scares the piss” out of him.
Plus, when you are conditioned, above all else, to conform to somebody else’s idea of what is right, when the only journey you are willing to take is “goin around the coffeepot lookin’ for the handle”, then it is likely that the only power you will ever know is an imagined power.
Yes, that was my point, that he doesn't want it to be true, but knows it is.
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Yes, that was my point, that he doesn't want it to be true, but knows it is.
OH, ok,
Sorry, guess my mouth got in the way of my ears. ;)
Occupational hazzard.
I think we have had this discussion.
Talk about a mobius strip. ;D
You would think we would be disoriented by now.
Maybe we are. ;)
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Yes, that was my point, that he doesn't want it to be true, but knows it is.
OH, ok,
Sorry, guess my mouth got in the way of my ears. ;)
Occupational hazzard.
I think we have had this discussion.
Talk about a mobius strip. ;D
You would think we would be disoriented by now.
Maybe we are. ;)
I can't disagree..I often feel like the recycle gets recycled-but I can't remember from where-??
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I hope you are not kidding [re the purpose of the 'travelogue']
Not at all. Gets the point across, without having to spell out what the point is. A very nice turn, and economical and (I think?) original. Good writing! There's nothing like good writing.
[As opposed to, say,
"Detective Bart Lasiter was in his office studying the light from his one small window falling on his super burrito when the door swung open to reveal a woman whose body said you've had your last burrito for a while, whose face said angels did exist, and whose eyes said she could make you dig your own grave and lick the shovel clean."
Or:
"She resolved to end the love affair with Ramon tonight . . . summarily, like Martha Stewart ripping the sand vein out of a shrimp's tail . . . though the term "love affair" now struck her as a ridiculous euphemism . . . not unlike "sand vein," which is after all an intestine, not a vein . . . and that tarry substance inside certainly isn't sand . . . and that brought her back to Ramon."
(both quotes courtesy of Bulmer-Lytton Fiction Contest)]
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~ I have,I guess, always tended to skim over the list of places visited.
Oh -- you mustn't! My idea is that we're meant to read the whole list, range after range, without taking advantage of our option to jump past the soon-boring, all-the-same ranges. It's AP's way of tiring us and boring us, despite each lovely or exotic name -- thus she gives us a flavor of the slow fatigue wrought in J & E by the endless series of their trips through those same ranges, wonderful though each individual trip was. Sets the tone for what follows.
Yes, I hadn't thought of this before, but 'worked their way' has a slight tinge of desperation to it, as if the sense of relief that they must have had earlier on as they got away from everyday life, the eyes of other people, into the fresh liberating air of the mouintains, gradually gave way to the realisation, for Jack at least - no, I think for both of them, that this was all they were going to get of the good life. The euphoric air of Brokeback Mountain has become the 'friggin cold'.
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I see the various ranges as 'the same ol sh*t'-the well-worn path of the relationship. It fits it with them never having achieved that blissfull unreal reality of BBM-the only place that 'two guys livin' together' ever remotely happened for them.
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~ 'worked their way' has a slight tinge of desperation to it, as if the sense of relief that they must have had earlier on as they got away from everyday life, the eyes of other people, into the fresh liberating air of the mouintains, gradually gave way to the realisation, ~ that this was all they were going to get of the good life. The euphoric air of Brokeback Mountain has become the 'friggin cold'.
Yeah. "~bitter juniper crushed beneath the horses' hooves~" reminds me, somehow, of years of things unsaid, or of old arguments, or almost-arguments avoided by someone's biting his tongue. Unsaid because each trip was so brief, so best just to keep the horses moving. The dry pine duff as well, makes me think of the many years passed -- I guess she could have had them ride past a drift of calendar pages, instead!
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Yeah. "~bitter juniper crushed beneath the horses' hooves~" reminds me, somehow, of years of things unsaid, or of old arguments, or almost-arguments avoided by someone's biting his tongue. Unsaid because each trip was so brief, so best just to keep the horses moving. The dry pine duff as well, makes me think of the many years passed -- I guess she could have had them ride past a drift of calendar pages, instead!
It really is a great scene, beautifully constructed to demonstrate the stasis of the relationship.
In combination with the "lead in" travelogue litany and the concluding" maybe they'd never got further than that" sentiment,
it not only tells the story but creates just the right mood.
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dry pine duff-makes me think of aging, too; the 20 years' long element, and neither being young with all of it ahead of them anymore.
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Re: Mike's post:
I agree that the 'whole package' is not fishing, whiskey, etc. But there is an inevitable comparison being made, I think, by the filmmakers: The implication is that Jack could conceivably have a life with someone else. The fishing and cabin idea is just a painful reminder, maybe, of what he lacks with Ennis-tangible roots, a home, a committment-although, 'Jack never asked him to swear anything.' So someone might think that since he does not have the whole package with Ennis either, ie, the living together, what is the difference in the end result of going off with the RN on the fishing weekends? I think the answer to that is the reason Jack goes down the tubes: He may have looked for, and simply cannot get the feeling he got in Ennis's arms in the DE. So the RN serves a few different purposes-he reminds us of what Jack doesn't have with Ennis, by offering the same thing, on the surface; and he also reminds us of what Jack does get from Ennis, that he is no more likely to get from the RN than from anyone else.
Hi, Jo, sorry for the delay: life got in the way... For me, there are two significant issues here: of course, everyone and anyone could conceivably have a life with someone else, but could that really be a possibility for Jack? He is so hung up on Ennis that he continues their persistently intermittent relationship for so many years. It seems likely to me that if Jack were to seek romance or extra-Ennis sex on a continuing basis he would inevitably find someone over the course of sixteen years who would live closer, and thereby be easier to connect with on a more frequent basis? I mean to say that a lover who would be easier to contact more frequently would mark the end of a difficult lover who was hard to meet. That's the way people are. C'est la vie. If Jack believes he can't get the feeling he wants from Ennis that would certainly be reason enough for a reasonable person to call it quits, which he doesn't do - again, I ask me, would Jack say he wished he could do something if he were prepared and able to do it? In other words, if a RN offered what Jack thinks he wants, why would Jack go through the hardship of 2800 mile round trips two or three times a year if he could get what he wanted closer to home? People being people, we do so easily become habits with one another, that the love of a lifetime, which for me eliminates the possibility of a secondary, or parttime lover, without the end of the fishin trips - Jack would live with either or, but not both.
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Mike-I don't think he can, so yes, that is my point too, indeed. The RN shows us that-he can't get what he is seeking from Ennis. Ennis is the only one who can provide it.
I think the question is, is Jack willing to settle? I don't think he can. So I agree, that didn't really happen. The RN was highly exaggerated in the film. But he is used to good affect. I just think the filmmakers have quit in mind, but AP left it much more ambiguous. I struggle with it alot-but in my heart, I think Jack knew what he felt with Ennis was rare, and he was not going to easily find it from someone else-nor did he want to. He wanted Ennis. The outside activities were a distraction from this knowledge.
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think the question is, is Jack willing to settle? I don't think he can. So I agree, that didn't really happen. The RN was highly exaggerated in the film. But he is used to good affect. I just think the filmmakers have quit in mind, but AP left it much more ambiguous. I struggle with it alot-but in my heart, I think Jack knew what he felt with Ennis was rare, and he was not going to easily find it from someone else-nor did he want to. He wanted Ennis. The outside activities were a distraction from this knowledge.
I agree with this. It took Jack four years after his initial rendez vous with Ennis but he still came back to him. Something about their chemistry keeps Jack coming back for more despite the fact that he tries to have relationships with others. Jack is like most of us..relationships run the spectrum of purely physical to the total package. So where does Randall fit in? We know that he is not just a Mexico tryst. Jack feels enough for him to tell his father about him, and to lie to Ennis during their fireside chat...the foreman's "wife" substitution. It may be that Jack is taking him for a test drive before he commits to purchasing.
Nonetheless, I think in the end, he always ends up, like he does from the beginning, coming back to his true love. I think this is why he says "Damn you Ennis" after their final fight. He knows no matter how much heartache and suffering he endures with Ennis, there is no substitute for that kind of love.
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Hi, newfan! In looking closely at Jack's interactions with other people, can we be sure that none of them have romance at their base - all reference to his extra-Ennis sexual misadventures are about him not rolling his own. As far as Randall is concerned, although there is a reference to a RN by OMT, Randall does not exist at all in the short story, and in the film, Jack never acknowledges the "opportunity" to visit the croppie house with him. When Jack does talk to his father about bringing the RN up to LF, he does this after, "I wish I could quit you," but before he gets to Texas, which negates any chance of Jack talking to anyone in Childress: all of which says to me that Jack, who can't tell his father why he's pissed at Ennis, is talking about potentiality rather than reality. Plus, I do ask myself if, after all these years, did OMT provoke Jack with a "Where's this Ennis friend of yours who's supposed to come help out up here this year?" Jack has to have something to say, and he's probably still stinging from the fight, BUT, if he did go to Randall when he got back to Texas, and told him he was interested in pursuing a romance with him up in LF, that would be the logical setup for Jack's murder.
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Question: What do you make of the scene with the rednecks and the 4th of July scene? I don't see how it fits into the movie aside from breaking up two Jack based scenes.
Is it supposed to make Ennis seem threatening/dangerous? Is his response to the rednecks a manifestation of his pent up anger at not being with the one he truly loves and his resentment at being stuck with Alma?
Alma looks positively terrified as she clings to the kid(s).
Sorry if this has been discussed here before, I'm new here! ;D
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Hi donnab,
Welcome to our shared obsession. The Fourth of July scene is an interpolation made by the screenwriters and the director. To me it has seemed out of synch with the rest of the film. I think you are right that it is structurally inserted to separate two scenes with Jack, as the story alternates between Jack and Ennis, only to bring them together later on. And I agree that we are meant to think that Ennis has deep reserves of anger he doesn't fully understand in being saddled with Alma and the kids and being separated from Jack. In a sense, this establishes some background for the "corrosion" that took palce between Ennis and Alma after the motel scene and through to the divorce. It also establishes the fear and resentment he feels for having his sexuality questioned. Still feels clumsy to me, though.
See you on the threads,
Sandy
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Thanks Sandy! Gosh I wish I saw this movie three years ago ::)
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I think the movie will stand the test of time.
But, as my Baptist aunt used to say, better late than never. :D
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Another benefit of this scene is tht we get to see Alma reacting to a something she's never really seen before - a passionate husband.
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Another benefit of this scene is tht we get to see Alma reacting to a something she's never really seen before - a passionate husband.
It also gives us one of the most powerful visual shots (IMHO) in the movie: Ennis standing, alone, against the backdrop of the fiery, smoke-strewn night sky.
Cheers,
Dagonet
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Oh yeah! I remember that shot from the advertising when the movie first came out. Nice!
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Another benefit of this scene is tht we get to see Alma reacting to a something she's never really seen before - a passionate husband.
Yes, I like this.
I also think it is a stress reaction by an Ennis perhaps imagining a challenge to his 'manhood'.
If be felt 'trapped' by marriage and missing Jack, the caldron would have been brewing.
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Hi donnab,
Welcome to our shared obsession. The Fourth of July scene is an interpolation made by the screenwriters and the director. To me it has seemed out of synch with the rest of the film. I think you are right that it is structurally inserted to separate two scenes with Jack, as the story alternates between Jack and Ennis, only to bring them together later on. And I agree that we are meant to think that Ennis has deep reserves of anger he doesn't fully understand in being saddled with Alma and the kids and being separated from Jack. In a sense, this establishes some background for the "corrosion" that took palce between Ennis and Alma after the motel scene and through to the divorce. It also establishes the fear and resentment he feels for having his sexuality questioned. Still feels clumsy to me, though.
See you on the threads,
Sandy
Interesting choice of words there. Ennis willingly "saddles" himself with a wife and kids and derives great pleasure out of his girls, it seems to me. I believe him when he says he loves them to pieces, and since he can't quite understand why Alma eventually ups and leaves him (hence the feeling of being short-changed - he put X in and got X minus Y back), it would appear that marriage was something he didn't resent.
If he hadn't been "saddled" would he have trotted off to live with Jack? I doubt it very much. As we've alluded to on other threads, it's the wife and kid(s) which free him up to contemplate his attraction to Jack. If he'd felt saddled, felt constrained by his domestic situation, he would surely have taken up Jack's proposal of a C&C and later been more responsive after the divorce.
And hello, donnab. Enjoy the ride!
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Marian,
Ennis doesn't love Alma to pieces. How could he? He really doesn't respect her or what she wants out of life. The upshot is that he really doesn't respect the marriage, either. At best, it is a convenience for him. So maybe you are being a bit credulous in believing what Ennis says.
I think you are far off base when you claim that his marriage and family freed Ennis to contemplate his attraction to Jack. That started before before he married and had a family, it continues while he is married and it lasts well after he is divorced and ignoring his children. I've never alluded to such an idea, and I believe that the story does not support it.
To say blithely that if Ennis had felt himself saddled with or constrained by his marriage that he would then have taken off and lived with Jack is to ignore that copious posts you and others have made that argue for Ennis' internalized homophobia and fear of discovery. Alma and the marriage functioned as a beard for that; the marriage was symptom of his fear, not an expression of freedom.
Note also that when Jack says, "You and Alma, that's a marriage," Ennis doesn't defend his marriage, he merely tells Jack not to blame Alma.
So, yes, he felt saddled with his marriage. It's something he took on when he was forming suspicions that he shouldn't, he didn't fight to keep the marriage or the family intact, and he didn't try to remarry. Not a picture of domestic bliss.
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Well, des, I strongly disagree with you, not that that should come as any surprise. ;)
I don't think Ennis' marriage, such that it was, freed him to do anything. That he might have tried to figure out his attraction to Jack during some of the time he was married is bringing together two coincidental things; one is not related to the other. He tried to figure out his attraction to Jack while he was working a job, being an American and breathing oxygen. Ennis never allowed himself the luxury of being in a place where he could serenely and dispassionately contemplate his attraction. His marriage saddled him with responsibilities/burdens, and he wasn't the contemplative type.
And, for reasons I have recently given on the Relationship and TOTW threads, I believe is it mistaken to take too literally what Ennis says about the amount of time it took him to figure it out. I think some of what he says is sly, wry rhetorical bluster. We are not reading from a court transcript or a forensic investigation, but a story grounded in the characters' emotions. I believe Ennis viscerally understood what he felt for Jack as they went down the Mountain, he just didn't feel free to act on it because he had made a prior commitment to marry, because he was deathly afraid of his feelings.
Ennis doesn't fight for much of anything, he just gets into dirty fights. He doesn't fight for his marriage or for Alma's understanding. He is going through the motions; for him marriage is about doing what society expects of him until society says no. Just like he would have gone on from being a freshman to being a sophmore. But the picture of Ennis as the satisfied pater familias in the bosom of a happy family and marriage, one to which he contributes and from which he derives satisfaction, that strikes me as fiction, just not the one that Annie Proulx wrote.
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I agree completely, Sandy.
You've posted my own beliefs in a much more lucid and
straightforward manner than I ever could.
But that won't mean I'll give up trying. ;)
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Ennis wanted marriage and family in much the same way that he wanted steady work with livestock outdoors; it's all he had known and it was expected of him. So he was saddled with work and he was saddled with a marriage.
As I recently noted over on the relationship thread, which is where this discussion should probably migrate if it is to be pursued further, Ennis is not a thinking man's man, so it is missing something essential about his character to describe him with words such as recognize, contemplate, mean (non-emotional sense), believe, think, know, etc. (all verbs of propositional attitude). Ennis feels the world.
Let me repeat: this discussion, if it is to continue, should continue on the appropriate thread (relationship TOTW), but not here.
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Marian,
Ennis doesn't love Alma to pieces. How could he? He really doesn't respect her or what she wants out of life. The upshot is that he really doesn't respect the marriage, either. At best, it is a convenience for him. So maybe you are being a bit credulous in believing what Ennis says.
I think you are far off base when you claim that his marriage and family freed Ennis to contemplate his attraction to Jack. That started before before he married and had a family, it continues while he is married and it lasts well after he is divorced and ignoring his children. I've never alluded to such an idea, and I believe that the story does not support it.
To say blithely that if Ennis had felt himself saddled with or constrained by his marriage that he would then have taken off and lived with Jack is to ignore that copious posts you and others have made that argue for Ennis' internalized homophobia and fear of discovery. Alma and the marriage functioned as a beard for that; the marriage was symptom of his fear, not an expression of freedom.
Note also that when Jack says, "You and Alma, that's a marriage," Ennis doesn't defend his marriage, he merely tells Jack not to blame Alma.
So, yes, he felt saddled with his marriage. It's something he took on when he was forming suspicions that he shouldn't, he didn't fight to keep the marriage or the family intact, and he didn't try to remarry. Not a picture of domestic bliss.
Sandy, I will take this post over to Relationship, as you suggest.
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The scene in Brokeback where Jack and Randel {or Randle} are sitting on the bench outside the bar waiting for thier wives and Randel asks Jack to go fishing and hunting with him in Roy Taylors cabin.......the look that passes over Jacks face.....would you say that it's alook of 'Thank God there's someone else aroud here like me'.....or......'Is it beginging to show what I am being this guy has approached me so open P.S. by the way ImEnnisShesJack, love the qoute from Romeo & Juliet.
suelyblu.
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I see an almost dread look, as if he doesn't know what to do. I think he is on the cusp of saying yes, but really doesn't want to.
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Has anyone ever had any thoughts about the scene where Ennis is relaying the road surface? My take on this scene is prisoners on a chain gang used to do this work,and thats what he is "a prisoner". A prisoner in his own marriage, a prisoner of his own homosexuality. The guy who is working beside him never shuts up.Ennis ignores him, he looks down the open road , perhaps wishing he was in the silence of the mountains, with Jack.
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HEY hi hi... i have a question, not sure which thread to ask.... did jack and ennis move their camp?
when he says, "tent don't look right" was that a new location, or was he just fixing the tent?
is there a reference to the camp being moved in the short story?
is there evidence in the movie that it's shot in a different location?
i know herders do move camp as the flock needs different grass to munch on... but aguirre did say "stay in main camp" before they went up, i think. anyway, a friend asked this question, and now i'm curious too. any links to posts in different threads would be appreciated.... thanks.
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Has anyone ever had any thoughts about the scene where Ennis is relaying the road surface? My take on this scene is prisoners on a chain gang used to do this work,and thats what he is "a prisoner". A prisoner in his own marriage, a prisoner of his own homosexuality. The guy who is working beside him never shuts up.Ennis ignores him, he looks down the open road , perhaps wishing he was in the silence of the mountains, with Jack.
i thought of that too... ennis yearning for silence is good. he sure did have that look of "get me OUTTA HERE!"
hmm, i forgot what his trucker cap said, but i think it was something like "life insurance" or something.... ?
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In the short story, they did move camp during the summer. On page 6 of the story, as it appears in "Brokeback Mountain, Story to Screenplay," we find:
The summer went on and they moved the herd to a new pasture, shifted the camp...
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HEY hi hi... i have a question, not sure which thread to ask.... did jack and ennis move their camp?
when he says, "tent don't look right" was that a new location, or was he just fixing the tent?
Yes, they'd move the sheep higher up as the summer went on and more grass came in on the upper slopes. Presumably, by then the sheep would have eaten down the grass in the area where they'd started out.
IMO this is an example of how the symbolism got incorporated into the story/movie, instead of being just tacked on. They'd logically move the sheep at least once during the summer; but their relationship also changes around that point -- moves to a 'higher' level? ;)
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a little late, but thanks sandy and marcia for the responses. i have reported it back to my friend and i think she won the bet. :D
i also learned that sheep and cattle graze differently -- cattle cut the grass and keep the roots intact, but sheep tear up the grass in bunches, or something like that. so it's almost imperative that they do keep moving around.
...and i like the "higher level" symbology! :)
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HEY hi hi... i have a question, not sure which thread to ask.... did jack and ennis move their camp?
when he says, "tent don't look right" was that a new location, or was he just fixing the tent?
is there a reference to the camp being moved in the short story?
is there evidence in the movie that it's shot in a different location?
i know herders do move camp as the flock needs different grass to munch on... but aguirre did say "stay in main camp" before they went up, i think. anyway, a friend asked this question, and now i'm curious too. any links to posts in different threads would be appreciated.... thanks.
Also, just before this scene we see Jack walking up from the edge of the creek with the driftwood over his shoulder indicating that either a) he was redecorating, or b) they had moved and forgotten to bring the couch with them. BTW, this is the first scene where one of them touches the other, and it's Ennis reaching out to touch Jack on the shoulder with the driftwood on it.
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Question: What is the significance of the TV show playing while Ennis, Alma & kids are in their apt above the laundromat? "Waiting for hours for a phone call?"
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Question: What is the significance of the TV show playing while Ennis, Alma & kids are in their apt above the laundromat? "Waiting for hours for a phone call?"
The answer to your question was included in a fairly recent TOTW that asked about the various radio and TV 'messages' that were included in the film. Chuck should be able to give you the week #.
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Forgive me if this has been covered, but is there any signifigance to the passing of the white truck when Jack meets Ennis and finds out (once again) it's not going to happen? It's Ennis' weekend for the girls? They're there? Ennis looks at truck, and Jack turns around to see what he's looking at?
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:) Hi --
Yes, I believe the white truck did have a meaning.
First, Jack comes up to Riverton unexpected after receiving news of Ennis' divorce. His happiness on the way is very
apparent. He comes to Ennis' new place. As always, they are very happy on seeing each other; they hug as lovers do;
but Ennis pulls back a bit because his girls are in the car. Jack says "I had to ask about 10 people in Riverton to see where you moved to", then "well I guess I thought this means we..."....
Ennis says he's sorry and reluctantly has to tell Jack he can't go. Jack is crestfallen, and begins to realize he's made a
mistake in thinking that "you and me...", and understands. We see the white truck go by and as Ennis begins to stare at it, Jack stares at it, most likely knowing what's going on in Ennis' mind, e.g. "Someone in that truck know me/us"?? Ennis says "Jack I sure am sorry...you know I am".
Then Jack, devastated, gets back in his truck after saying "well, see you next month then". Ennis truly is sorry that he has
to say no to him and stares as he drives away, truly looking sad. Jack sobs as he drives away.
Another chance lost. A very good chance lost. :(
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The white truck is a serious down-to-earth-with-a- bump for Jack. He knows exactly what's going on in E's mind and puts up no fight at all, back to square one.
I would say that Ennis demeanor when J first arrives is a positive one and for just a minute, like the reunion, he forgets himself but not for long. It's downhill from there on. Btw, he introduces Jack to his girls almost matter-of-fact, and exhibits no great awkwardness or anything. Interesting.
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Crows are said to be associated w/ death in some cultures (I forget where). As the white truck passes, a crow flies close on; one hears the crow's distant cry. I suppose the crow was a CGI effect, to show even more clearly Ennis's state of mind.
BtW, much later, when Ennis opens the window in Jack's old room, I seem to recall a couple of crow cries, as well. No?
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Dal:
Crows are associated with death in some cultures; I believe this comes from the Mediterranean area. I've always remembered my mother saying this; her mother said it, etc., etc. They all said it when crows fly by a clear window. Also when a group of them fly by.
I can't remember a crow passing close to the white truck in this scene, or a cry. Can't remember crow cries when Ennis opens the window either in Jack's room. I'm surprised, because I watch/love BBM so much I should remember. I have to watch it again (no problem there)! If so, it could be a window into Ennis' state of mind. :( Really a sad scene for both of them. Ang Lee is such a perfectionist; he could/would do this.
kathy :)
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Forgive me if this has been covered, but is there any signifigance to the passing of the white truck when Jack meets Ennis and finds out (once again) it's not going to happen? It's Ennis' weekend for the girls? They're there? Ennis looks at truck, and Jack turns around to see what he's looking at?
This scene is one that often gets me going emotionally. It begins with an ecstatic Jack to a truly dejected and crestfallen lover (and the accompanying song...my God, what foreshadowing!).
In any case, I think this scene is the beginning of the downfall of the relationship, as Jack, I think, comes to understand and bitterly accept that he and Ennis, as he desires, will never be. I think this scene also reflects Jack's resentment toward Ennis as a result of his own inability to quit Ennis. Afterall, though he is upset and truly in the pits because Ennis can't/won't take a stand, Jack agrees to wait 'til the next month to meet Ennis.
To answer your question, I think the white truck represents Ennis's constant fear of being found out, of others suspecting (which he expresses later on in the scene by the stream and Jack responds by suggesting that Ennis move to Texas. As Ennis tries to explain why he can't be with Jack, he starts focusing too much on the truck, fearing that others--the outside world--will automatically sense the true nature of their relationship, and Jack, aware of Ennis captivation with the truck, finally does understand.
I like how this reunion begins with the two greeting each other. It's one of the two few touching moments between Jack and Ennis in the film. If you'll note, Ennis is genuinely happy to see Jack, and Jack embraces him like a lover. Holding on to Ennis's head in a caress before Ennis, always too conscoious, pulls Jack's hand from his neck. I like that little touch..and then it goes downhill.
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The scene in Brokeback where Jack and Randel {or Randle} are sitting on the bench outside the bar waiting for thier wives and Randel asks Jack to go fishing and hunting with him in Roy Taylors cabin.......the look that passes over Jacks face.....would you say that it's alook of 'Thank God there's someone else aroud here like me'.....or......'Is it beginging to show what I am being this guy has approached me so open P.S. by the way ImEnnisShesJack, love the qoute from Romeo & Juliet.
suelyblu.
Actually, I find this scene rather sad, as I think it reflects Jack's breakdown in his hopes for a future with Ennis. His look is almost impassive superficially, but I think it reflects Jack's contemplation of what he wishes he and Ennis could be. I think he looks utterly bereft in this scene; like it's not what he really wants, but again, what he'll likely settle for since he can't have Ennis in the way that Randall is offering him.
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This scene on the bench has always fascinated me. As I see it, all the while R is talking about the cabin, a lil whisky, etc, Jack is transported into Ennis land, but the spell is broken when the girls come out. Jack then takes on board what's been said and computes it as the m/m proposition that it is and for the first time contemplates an Ennis alternative. This is all suggested to me in the quick glance he gives to R before joining him in looking at the girls as they exit the building. It's plain to me that Jack has been looking at R because the long shot of them on the bench shows Jack turning his head further over his shoulder from where it had been.
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Actually, I find this scene rather sad, as I think it reflects Jack's breakdown in his hopes for a future with Ennis. His look is almost impassive superficially, but I think it reflects Jack's contemplation of what he wishes he and Ennis could be. I think he looks utterly bereft in this scene; like it's not what he really wants, but again, what he'll likely settle for since he can't have Ennis in the way that Randall is offering him.
I've always thought that Jack was completely impassive/blank in this scene. The look on his face as that foreman talks about a cabin has always seemed sad :( to me, because Jack's love and longing to be with Ennis is constant, and this shows on his face. If E/J were together, Jack wouldn't have given that foreman's talk a second thought. I'm sure Ennis always has the same feelings back in WY too. But - Ennis being Ennis - his enormous fear (DRH?) always holds him back. So sad.
kathy :(
(edited to add one close-square-bracket, without which the system goes all stupid Dal)
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i'm new to this forum, so i am not sure if this has already been covered, but what did you guys think about ennis' emotions and thoughts when jack's father talked about jack's friend that went there last summer?
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Hi, Oliver - welcome! In answer to your question, I find the patient suffering on Ennis's faces, that added layer of pain on top of what is already unbearable, absolutely heart-rending
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Hi, oliver, and welcome to our shared obsession.
My own take on this scene is that it serves to heighten Ennis's doubts about Jack--just before he discovers the nested shirts in Jack's closet. That discovery tells Ennis that Jack really love him, so that the doubts no longer matter. Me, I think it creates added dramatic tension that is resolved in the discovery of the shirts.
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i'm new to this forum, so i am not sure if this has already been covered, but what did you guys think about ennis' emotions and thoughts when jack's father talked about jack's friend that went there last summer?
I saved this, it was written by a forum member...please forgive me, I can't remember who it was, but it is stunning. I was reading it at work yesterday...but had to stop...
***************************************************
The Premise
Ennis is so deeply traumatized by his father's attitude about the despicable
nature of homosexuality, and by seeing Earl's mutilated corpse, that he is
abjectly terrified of being associated with homosexuality. By the time of
Brokeback, he absolutely cannot admit his emotional feelings for Jack. For him,
a man may not love another man; it is forbidden. He denies being queer, refers
to his and Jack's intense yearning for sex with each other as "this thing [that]
grabs aholt a us."
Time does not diminish his denial. Never in 20 years does he say to Jack "I love
you." During the last 16 years he organizes his yearly work and activities to
accommodate their trysts, usually 2 per year. He even quits his job if the boss
won't give him time off.
He is obsessed with Jack, and he is unable to recognize that what he feels as
love. One could say that he denies that it is love, but his statements suggest
that he simply does not recognize his feelings as love. He calls them "this
thing."
In other areas of his life, he speaks of love matter-of-factly: he apparently
loved his parents (they died in a car wreck), he apparently loved Alma early on,
he loves his little girls to death, he loves his horses. But he cannot tell Jack
that he loves him. It seems he cannot even think it.
Ennis is hopelessly (neurotically?) terrified of thinking of himself as
homosexual. It is so deeply ingrained that if he thinks about it at all, it is
only to deny it. As long as he doesn't think about it, his interaction with
people is fairly normal.
Such a denial of his own feelings seems almost unbelievable. One can accept that
he had a horrible guilt complex, the gift of his father, but Jack was the light
of his life, indeed, the love of his life. He acknowledged it by his actions
(trysts, bending his social commitments to accommodate the trysts), but he could
not say it out loud. Nor even silently, to himself.
With this premise, I see the following events as stepping stones leading to the
scene at Jack's parents' house, the climax of the story
* * *
At the beginning of the story, Annie presents Ennis as a virgin, age 19.
Everyone in his family is married, and he and Alma Beers are engaged. His
engagement to Alma is not a ploy; he likes her well enough, and marriage seems
to him to be proper for his station in life.
He gets hired (with Jack Twist) to herd sheep on Brokeback Mountain in the
summer of 1963. On the mountain, the two are isolated, and gradually become good
friends. There is no evidence of sexual interest until one cold night they share
the tent. In the middle of the night, Jack instigates sex, and Ennis, still
under the influence of alcohol, responds.
The next day, they meet at the pasture, and they tell each other that they are
not queer, and "what we got goin' on here is a one-shot thing." This is the
first concrete example of Ennis denying his sexuality. We discover that this
"one-shot thing" really means "this whole summer," and the sex continues and
intensifies. But in Ennis's mind, that's OK, because he and Jack have
established that they are not queer.
Ang Lee's and Annie Proulx's versions differ by one hugely dramatic scene the
screenwriters originated: SNIT (Second Night in Tent). In this movie scene,
Ennis comes to Jack with tenderness and all his defenses down; their expressions
and gestures bespeak love of such depth and honesty, that the words "I love you"
are superfluous. (Nor are they spoken, tellingly. Ennis's denial continues on
autopilot.)
At the end of both the story and the movie, there is a flashback to the
mountain, to a moment of tenderness and joy for Jack, when Ennis hugs him from
behind, cradling him and humming to him: The Dozy Embrace. But it is an
ambiguous caress: Ennis hugs him from behind because he does not want to see
that it is Jack he is embracing: he doesn't want to be face-to-face with a man,
because that comes too close to queer behavior.
When the herding job ends, so does the "one-shot thing." As they prepare to
bring the sheep back down the mountain, they get into a childish wrestling match
that quickly escalates into hot tempers. Accidentally, Jack knees Ennis's nose,
which gushes blood. Instantly sorry, Jack rushes to staunch the blood with his
shirtsleeve: they are face to face, inches apart. Ennis crashes a furious punch
to Jack's cheek, laying him low. No explanations are given, but we know Ennis
cannot tolerate face-to-face.
Later, as they part, Jack asks Ennis if he will be back next summer, obviously
hoping the answer will be Yes. But Ennis reminds him of his forthcoming
marriage, so the answer is No. In this short conversation, no mention is made of
their affair on the mountain. It is as if it never happened. But as they go
their different ways, Ennis is overcome with nausea, wretching in an alley
beside the road. Four years later, he will admit to Jack that "I never shoulda
let you outta my sights."
Separated for the next four years, the boys both marry and sire children. But
both their marriages deteriorate gradually for different reasons. Jack learns
that Ennis may live in Riverton, and attempts to contact him by sending a
postcard to General Delivery. Ennis gets the card, and quickly a new phase in
their relationship begins: the fishing trips, two or three times a year, out in
the "middle of nowhere," hidden from all eyes.
Jack lets Ennis know quickly that what he really wants is for the two of them to
live together with a little cow and calf operation. That is anathema to Ennis,
because it was exactly the setup for Earl and Rich. He sees it as an automatic
death sentence, and Ennis doesn't want either one of them to die. Ennis says "we
can get together, way the hell out in the boondocks", and thus is born the
pattern of their lives for the next 16 years.
Ennis's original ground rule is updated, but still applies: they are not queer
because now both have wives and children. But that's no reason to tempt fate, so
fishing trips in the boondocks a couple times a year are their only trysts. Note
that neither of them is challenged by their spouses about these trips, but in
Ennis's case, it is his own horror of being a queer (or being known as a queer)
that has to be placated.
Eventually Alma suspects what is going on. But her major issue is that Ennis is
a poor provider and husband, and she divorces him. She does not drag Jack into
her divorce.
Despite Ennis's divorce, the fishing trip pattern does not change. He is a
bachelor, and Jack has made it known that this gives Ennis the opportunity to
set up house with Jack (who will happily quit his marriage.) Ennis quickly
points to his two girls as the reason that is now out of the question: he gets
them one weekend a month, and there is no way he will jeopardize his status with
them.
The next eight years go by, two fishing trips each year. Annie says that their
infrequent couplings never lose their brilliant charge. Jack and Ennis both
dabble with minor relationships, nothing serious. But Jack sees his dream of a
life with Ennis slipping away, and there is nothing he can do about it. Ennis
still never says "I Love You", nor does Jack, in deference to Ennis's example.
Twenty years after Brokeback, on their latest fishing trip, Ennis tells Jack
that he will have to skip their August fishing trip (only warm-weather trip of
the year) because of work. Jack's years of frustration erupt. They take turns
raging at each other. But in the end, nothing truly changes. They can't leave
each other, despite threats to do so.
But one key element has changed. After telling why he can't make August (needs
the money for child support payments), Ennis asks Jack, "You got a better idea?"
A pause...and Jack says, "I did, once." Jack's dream of a life with Ennis has
died.
(A bit of clarification is needed at this point. While his dream of a life with
Ennis is dead, that doesn't mean that his love for Ennis is dead. "I wish I knew
how to quit you" means that he thinks that only quitting Ennis will end his
frustration, but his love will not let him quit. Damned if he does, damned if he
doesn't: Ennis is one tough love.)
Within a couple months, Jack is dead. Ennis thinks he was gay-bashed, and may be
right, but Annie doesn't say for sure. Ennis doesn't learn of it until his
postcard to Jack is returned, marked "Deceased". He calls Lureen, who tells him
that Jack died in an accident. Ennis doesn't believe her.
Lureen goes on to say that Jack was cremated, half his ashes interred in Texas,
the other half shipped to his parents in Lightning Flat. She tells Ennis that
Jack had said he wanted his ashes scattered on Brokeback Mountain, his favorite
place in the world, but she didn't know where that was, thought maybe it was a
drunken fiction. Ennis explains that he and Jack herded sheep there in 1963, and
suddenly Lureen intuits that he -- the unseen fishing buddy -- and Jack have
been lovers all these years. She is shocked, and soon hangs up, but not before
telling Ennis to go to Jack's parents and offer to take the ashes up to
Brokeback.
That's exactly what Ennis does. He has never met Jack's folks, only knows of
them because Jack mentioned them occasionally. He knows Jack's dad is a
controlling asshole, that young Jack could not wait to get away from Lightning
Flat. Yet Jack regularly returned to "give the old man a hand with the place", a
rundown, shoestring cattle ranch, in country so desolate the nearest neighbor
was 10 miles away. In the boondocks, you might say.
The barren looks of the place suggest a total lack of human compassion, but
Ennis is about to get the lesson of his life.
At the Twist ranch
As he steps from his truck and looks around, he sees the weather-beaten house
and a few sagging out buildings. Tall weeds have surrounded the yard, neglect
and abandonment define the scene.
Jack's mother emerges from the kitchen, stands erect and honest on the stoop,
looking directly at Ennis. Obviously, she expects him.
Inside, Ennis is seated at one end of the kitchen table, a sullen, silent John
Twist, Sr., at the other end. Mrs. Twist offers Ennis coffee and cherry cake; he
accepts the coffee, says "...I can't eat no cake just now." As she turns to
fetch the coffee, she shows a wry smile; she's pleased he doesn't want any cake.
No honest person would want cake at such a stressful time.
Speaking to both of them, Ennis explains how sorry he is about Jack's death,
that they were good friends for a long time. Then he offers to take the ashes up
to Brokeback like his wife said he wanted, if they want him to.
John Twist, silent up to now, speaks: "Tell you whut,..." (paraphrased from this
point)
1. I know where Brokeback Mountain is.
The disdainful way he says this suggests that he is contemptuous of BBM; maybe
he knows some bad stuff about it. And it implies that if he wanted Jack's ashes
up there, he could take them himself, no outside help needed (in other words,
your offer amounts to meddling in the family's private affairs.)
Ennis is twice insulted in one short sentence.
2. Thought he was too goddam special to be buried in the family plot.
John holds his son in contempt. Considering Jack's annual trips to help his
father, this does not seem justified... unless there is some factor not yet
addressed. Homosexuality? Maybe.
Ennis's horror of horrors leaps into focus.
3. Jack used to say that he was going to bring Ennis Del Mar up here to help him
lick this damn ranch into shape... the two a you was goin to move up here and
build a cabin.
This is startling news to Ennis. Jack never suggested to him the two of them
going to Lightning Flat, which Ennis now realizes is so far "out in the middle a
nowhere" it might actually have been safe. But in light of the previous
homosexual allusion, this seems contradictory: Would the old man actually put up
with two queers just to get help with the ranch?
4. Then this spring he's got another fella (from Texas) gonna come up here with
him
Did Jack quit Ennis before he died? The thought is shattering, yet Ennis must
maintain his emotional facade. But watch his expression change, his eyes fill
with tears.
5. But like most a Jack's ideas, it never come to pass.
Ennis was aware of Jack's defeats: rodeoing, marriage, living with Ennis,
helping his dyslexic son, his father-in-law's contempt, his wife's primacy in
their livelihood. Is the old man's assessment actually right?
Ennis seems about to crack; he drops his eyes, his lip quivers.
Suddenly, Mrs. Twist places her hand on his shoulder and announces that she has
kept Jack's room as it was when he was a boy, and Ennis is welcome to look at
it, if he likes.
He most definitely likes: at that moment he'd do anything to leave the kitchen.
Inside Jack's small room, Ennis finds only a few childhood artifacts. It's hot
in there, and he opens the window, sits down in front of it and looks out.
There's the solitary road, the only one Jack knew as a child, the only way out
of this wretched, crushing existence.
His thoughts are tumult: he has confirmed old man Twist is a controlling tyrant,
his offer to take the ashes has been spurned, he feels his sexuality has been
questioned, he realizes that Jack may have actually had a workable plan for his
cow'n'calf operation, he has been told that Jack has betrayed him... and Jack is
dead. Ennis's world has become rubble.
Then he turns and faces the tiny closet where Mrs. Twist has kept a few of
Jack's clothes. (Why does he turn? We are left to ponder.)
He rises and walks to the closet, touches some of the clothes, crouches to
examine the pair of boots on the floor. Then he sees a shirt sleeve hidden back
in a tiny alcove; he raises it up, and discovers that it encloses a second shirt
sleeve. There are two shirts, one inside the other, both have dried blood
stains.
They are the shirts the two of them wore on the mountain, 20 years ago, when
Ennis's nose bled and Jack tried to minister to him. Jack has kept them hidden
in this closet shrine.
Jack had always deferred to Ennis's fears, his dread of "this thing" betraying
them, the danger of living together, the lack of simple admissions of love --
all because he placed Ennis's feelings first. And Ennis always thought that Jack
went along just because Jack saw things the same way he did.
But now he knows that Jack really saw things very differently. Jack not only
loved him all that time, but had erected this tiny shrine to their time on
Brokeback Mountain. Jack knew that what existed between them was love right from
the start, but he honored Ennis's inability to confront it. He could only wait
for Ennis to discover it for himself.
And in the agony of discovery, Ennis knows that he had pushed Jack away once too
often, probably to his death, just because he didn't face his own demons.
This silent testament from Jack opens Ennis's eyes to himself: he did not sin by
the despicable act of loving a man. The sin was the despicable act of his
homophobic father. Even old man Twist had lied by twisting Jack's story, Ennis
knew in a flash, because he now sees the depth of Jack's love.
A bolt of love from Lightning Flat has struck into Ennis's heart, shattering the
barriers of fear. He at last recognizes and acknowledges his own love for Jack.
* * *
What does the future hold for Ennis? Annie only sketches his regret and
uncertainty. This is not a happy ending, but it isn't supposed to be; it is a
story about a tragedy.
A magnificent story.
***********************************************
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Thanks for posting this, Morrobay... I don't recall seeing this before... it's great and a bit enlightening!
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Most welcome. I looked through my email to see if I could find who sent it to me, but no luck.
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In the Juarez scene, when Jack is in the town square, a boy runs behind him. The boy is shouting a Spanish word. Can anyone tell me what that word is?
I need this for something I am writing. Thanks so much, if you can help me out!
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Oh, darn, Donna, this was a question I asked long ago on a really tiny forum. I thought he was saying: "It's a secret! It's a secret!", which would have, IMO, added to the film. Instead, somebody replied that the children run through the streets selling gum, and the word (am so sorry, I forget), referred to gum for sale. I've been studying Spanish, but, no progress. It's either Spanish or a brand name. From here, though, someone who is familiar with Tijuana and other places might help.
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I hesitate to reply because I cant' tell if you guys are serious but the word is:
"Chiclets".
It is gum. Two little square pieces in a cardboard sleeve. It allows the kids not to be accused of begging. (The same thing went on with other children washing windshields without permission and then asking for a small "donation") I don't know if it still goes on but, especially in the time frame of the film, it was common for young children to try and sell Chiclets to "gringos".
McMurtry would be quite familiar with this and, at the risk of being chastised, I will venture forth to assert he, or someone, included it as ambient verisimilitude.
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Thanks Tony and Garyd.
I understand the rationale behind the gum sales.
But wouldn't the boy be speaking Spanish?
To me, it sounds like he is saying a four syllable word twice, maybe something like- "Necesitas, necesitas!"
He could be selling condoms to the prostitutes.
It doesn't sound like "Chiclets" to me.
Is it in the screenplay book?
Close captioning?
Anyone?
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Donna, I believe Gary is correct. This was the same answer I got from someone else 3 years ago. As for the pronunciation, wouldn't Chiclets be "see-clets" to a spanish boy? As for the sound before, it might be "esa". Am so embarrassed, as have studied over 7 languages, and Spanish, studying it part-time, is just not working for me. Even so:
este: this
ese: that
esos: those
es: verb,"to be"...is...
The original answer to me was, here are Chiclets, am fairly sure (70% ::)), pronounced "essa-see-clets", which was why I thought it was : "It's a secret!"
But just as Gary helped, am sure someone with experience with Spanish (which would not be me), could identify it exactly.
BTW, yes, it should be in the screenplay, so, help is on the way from somebody, further.
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I believe the kid shouts 'chicle.' It is the generic term for chewing gum, in Latin America at least. 'Chicklets' brand gum takes its name from that.
The chicle tree grows in Mexico; that's where chewing gum got started. I have never tried it; I wouldn't be surprised if some people way back in the back woods still chew the real thing though, who knows.
When you go to Mexico, kids will run up to you and say 'chicle'', trying to sell you a pack of gum, as Gary said. Although these days, they are probably trying to sell you heroin instead!
Tony, I am not sure why you say a Spanish speaker would read the first sound in 'Chicle' as 'S', rather that 'Ch'.
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LMAO! Come to think of it, my son is in his third year of Spanish in HS.
He does an impression of his Spanish teacher by shrieking: "Chicle en la basura!"
(Throw your gum in the trash!)
:D
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Tony, I am not sure why you say a Spanish speaker would read the first sound in 'Chicle' as 'S', rather that 'Ch'.
Am not sure, either, Dal. The only two Hispanic friends I've had always messed up "Ch". Instead of Shef (for Chef)...hard CHef. Instead of Shicago (Chicago), same thing....CHe-cago. So I supposed, in reverse, CH could go to an s sound. Again, I keep trying, at Spanish, and just can't get anywhere.
Donna ought to be able to ferret out an exact answer from one of the screenplays, or from one of the language experts on the forum (Fritz, Ing, etc.). For whatever reason, I tried to get an answer to her very same question, 3 years ago, got it, and have since forgotten.
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CH in Spanish is pronounced "chay" with the ay have the same sound as in "day" the the ch have the same sound as in "cheese".
Consequently if, indeed, the are saying chiclets it would almost come across as three syllables.
I have not watched the scene in a long while and my script simply has Jack being approached by some kids "begging for money" . He gives them some coins and moves on. So, this is not what was actually filmed.
g
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~ The only two Hispanic friends I've had always messed up "Ch". Instead of Shef (for Chef)...hard CHef. Instead of Shicago (Chicago), same thing....CHe-cago.~
They are just pronouncing the 'ch' as it almost always IS pronounced in English, aren't they, and as they learned it in school? CHair, CHew, aCHieve, CHef, CHeddar, CHalk. CHicago.... 'chef' and 'Chicago' are French, accounting for the peculiar orthography. Compare 'Charles' -- Same spelling in English and French, but different first sounds.
Chapultapec, chichimanga and other Mexican words show that Mexican Spanish-speakers have no problem w/ 'hard CH'.
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ah... still sounds like "neccessitas" to me...
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LMAO! Thanks everyone.
Based on all of your input, I ended up going with the gum. :)
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Thanks Tony and Garyd.
I understand the rationale behind the gum sales.
But wouldn't the boy be speaking Spanish?
To me, it sounds like he is saying a four syllable word twice, maybe something like- "Necesitas, necesitas!"
He could be selling condoms to the prostitutes.
It doesn't sound like "Chiclets" to me.
Is it in the screenplay book?
Close captioning?
Anyone?
The boy would be speaking English because, as every bordertown Mexican-speaker knows, gringos are too lazy, stupid, or mean to learn to speak Spanish.
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I see the boy as the salesperson for the prostitutes aka their pimp.
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The boy would be speaking English because, as every bordertown Mexican-speaker knows, gringos are too lazy, stupid, or mean to learn to speak Spanish.
But their money is good enough, and in the movie the role was played by one of the crew at any rate. Besides, prostitution is a service industry if ever there was one. Not good business to be unable to speak a client's language.
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Lazy embrace scene.
Has anyone connected the scene in the b/r where Alma comes up behind Ennis and puts her arms around him with the lazy dose embrace? Alma is behind Ennis with her arms around him whispering in his hear. She is manipulating him into moving into town for the girls, etc. She probably wants to move into town just for the convenience of doing laundry in the machines downstairs instead of having to hand wash the clothes herself. Notice you never see the girls playing with any other kids. Sorry but I don't like Alma.
Ennis is probably sick of hearing her nagging and can only think of Jack.
When Ennis is in the lazy embrace with Jack he is showing so much love and affection to Jack it is almost overwhelming. He even hums to him. He would never "nag" Jack like Alma does to him.
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in the short story, Annie refers to it as the dozy embrace, in DCF-speak, the DE. And this is the best youtube video about it, imo.
In an interview, AP mentioned that she listened to Spiritual by Pat Metheny over and over, as she tried to get every word of the DE perfect, and thankfully someone took the time and patience to put her words, and the movie sequence, to the music that allowed her to create this masterpiece....
eta: it makes me cry every single time....even this time...
,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UxW0npSi9U0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UxW0npSi9U0)
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Lazy embrace scene.
Has anyone connected the scene in the b/r where Alma comes up behind Ennis and puts her arms around him with the lazy dose embrace? Alma is behind Ennis with her arms around him whispering in his hear. She is manipulating him into moving into town for the girls, etc. She probably wants to move into town just for the convenience of doing laundry in the machines downstairs instead of having to hand wash the clothes herself. Notice you never see the girls playing with any other kids. Sorry but I don't like Alma.
Ennis is probably sick of hearing her nagging and can only think of Jack.
When Ennis is in the lazy embrace with Jack he is showing so much love and affection to Jack it is almost overwhelming. He even hums to him. He would never "nag" Jack like Alma does to him.
Very interesting observation. I don't think Alma's embrace in is the short story. Ang Lee could have interpolated it into the film to compare and contrast Ennis's treatment of Alma and jack.
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Very interesting observation. I don't think Alma's embrace in is the short story. Ang Lee could have interpolated it into the film to compare and contrast Ennis's treatment of Alma and jack.
In the SS, Alma asks Ennis to move into town as she is sitting on his lap with her arms around his neck. It is the segment which turns into the sex during which Ennis digitally manipulates her to orgasm and then turns her and engages in anal intercourse. If anyone is being manipulated, even abused, it is Alma. AND, this is exactly the same sort of manipulation Ennis employs with Jack in all aspects of their relationship. ("short leash" etc.)
I, for one, have never understood the antipathy held by some for Alma. Ennis insists on living in the middle of nowhere, he refuses to get or keep a job that might adequately financially provide for his family, and he appears to prefer sexual activities which his wife "hates". And some think Alma is a "nag"?
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we, uh, want them to be together..........fuck alma, even though it ain't her fault
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we, uh, want them to be together..........fuck alma, even though it ain't her fault
LOL, yeah I get it.
Alma, however, gets out of the way fairly early in the 20 some year long relationship between Jack and Ennis so I have a difficult time blaming Alma for much of anything as it relates to Jack and Ennis "being together'.
(I can see blaming the WIND maybe, oops wrong thread) >:D) but not Alma.
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In the short story, Alma wants to be near a clinic because of their daughter's asthma.
I agree with Garyd - Alma isn't the reason they're apart. There's no change at all after the divorce. There's a lot of unhappiness in the catalogue of reasons that led up to the divorce. Ennis won't take a better paying job (because he wants jobs he can drop to see Jack), his refusal to have sex (because he's gay ... and seems to be having an affair with his friend), his refusal to take family vacations (because he sees Jack instead), the kiss, etc. She was wronged.
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yeah yeah she was wronged next
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yeah yeah she was wronged next
Ditto.
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Throwing of the watch and the keys.
In the beginning Aguirre throws the watch to Ennis "as if he wasn't worth standing up for".
When the new baby is home Newsome throws the keys to Jack to get the presents out of the car as if Jack is "not worth standing up for". Jack looks on at the new baby, Lureen and the in-laws. He knows he does not belong there. He is just an "employee" of the family. Just a guy to produce children and sell combines. Although Alma loved Ennis in the beginning he was just a guy to pay the bills, to work on the road crew, help run the farm and help with the kids.
You can feel the misery of Jack and Ennis's mundane existance both before and after they met. Everyone in their lives probably loved them but considered them "not worth standing up for". And this was BEFORE anyone knew they were gay.
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In the movie, we get the two thanksgiving scenes back to back so I'm assuming they are from the same year? Since E & J both have cathartic explosions (J much more than Ennis of course) I'm wondering if there was something cut from the film or in an earlier script draft that had the men meet shortly before this and something didn't go well--the fear of Ennis for intimacy and becoming a couple, for example. It might explain why both men seem to have barely controlled rage issues that come out at the holiday, when both are with family and probably not with whom they'd like.
Another question: what about birthdays and Christmas? You think E & J exchanged cards? I can see Jack doing so, especially after Ennis' divorce. Holidays are always hard when you're forced by convention to be with people you may not want to be with.
Mark
P.S. If this has been answered/discussed earlier on these pages can someone tell me where? Thank you.
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I think the only reason Jack 'got' with Lureen was because he was in a financial rut. I think he came to care about Lureen as a person but was not 'in love' with her. He was in love with Ennis, period. Lureen let her father make fun of Jack. She never stood up for him in this case. The scene in the alley where Ennis sobs , acts as if he is going to get sick, cries and verbally abuses that man passing by who notices Ennis crying. That's powerful stuff. I think it sort of foreshadows the final scene. The seperation from Jack is too much from him. But that seen in the alley reflects that Ennis has fallen in love with Jack and it scares and confuses Ennis. I do believe they fell in love when they first ladi eyes on each other and Ennis physical reaction to it in that scene also reveals the anger he probably feels that he may never see his Jack again. I like that Jack dressed up fancy to impress his man. That's so cute. When Jack looks in his sideview of Ennis walking along the road as he drives away from Brokeback Moutain. The look in his eyes at first is so sad and then he tries to look all serious. Jack, oh come on. You know you want some more of that man. You know you want Ennis. You know Ennis wants you just as much. Jack and Ennis truly are one of the best movie couples that I have ever seen. Rose Dewitt Bukater and Jack Dawson from " Titanic" also manage to touch my heart like no other movie couple has.
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I loved the Thankgiving scene when Jack stood up to L.D. Newsome. L.D. needed to be put in his place. Way to go, Jack Twist!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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I found the scene where Ennis was kicking that dude's ass who almost ran him over after he rushed out of Alma's house from that fight they had in the kitchen during Thanksgiving to be interesting. I like seeing Ennis whoop ass. Jack too. Their so cute when they are fighting. Such manly men ( sigh).
:D
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I loved the Thankgiving scene when Jack stood up to L.D. Newsome. L.D. needed to be put in his place. Way to go, Jack Twist!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Every time I saw the movie, the audience cheered for that scene.
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Every time I saw the movie, the audience cheered for that scene.
Yeah. Same reaction for the audiences I saw the film in theaters with too.
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This thread is becoming my favorite to read in this forum. Earlier posters discussed the difference between Jack and Ennis’ ability to move from one place to the next. I have to agree, this story is about mobility or lack of it (geographic, socioeconomic, vocational, sexual, emotional) and how people, space, time, trails, roads, horses, and mostly trucks enhanced or doomed their relationship. Kind of the road! :'(
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:o I can't believe I haven't posted here yet!
I guess I was too busy reading the SNIT thread... all 245 pages of it, every post ;D Took me months & months.
Is this also the thread for the Jack and Aguirre scene, when Jack returns a year later, looking for a job (and Ennis)?
He looks so miserable and lonely - it always breaks my heart.
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Having been around since early 06 I'm rereading this thread and hope to learn quite a bit. :)
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Andy, since 2006? I bet you have seen so many of us come and go.!
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“Twist, you guys wasn’t gettin paid to leave the dogs baby-sit the sheep while you stemmed the rose”
BJD;
I liked the first scene at Aguirre’s because it is full of symbolism such as slamming the door on Ennis face, name calling, mixed messages, lack of greetings or dismissals are used to established the alpha male in the group. Unfortunately, they are still playing those games around here. I seriously doubt Aguirre drove a fancy car like that all American 1960 Rambler. Car too small for a big **** like him! 8)
“You pair of deuces lookin' for work, I suggest you get your scrawny asses in here pronto.”
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Andy, since 2006? I bet you have seen so many of us come and go.!
Yeah, a bit like my memory. ;D
Actually, the early years were special because everything was so new. This was my first online forum and I couldn't get over how much was going on.
As for scenes, I find one of the most telling, as far as Jack is concerned, is that where he and Randall are waiting for the girls to finish 'powdering their noses'. After/during R makes his suggestion and just as the girls can be heard exiting the building, the camera focuses on Jack's face and and it isn't until he turns further over his shoulder to look at the girls that I realised that his side glance had been, for but a few seconds, fully at R, plainly computing what had been said.
You reckon you'll still be around in 2020, QSA? ;)
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“You pair of deuces lookin' for work, I suggest you get your scrawny asses in here pronto.”
The first line in the movie (except for Jack's "Shit", when he kicked his truck) and it immediately shows you how A. thinks about them >:( He is a piece of ****, indeed.
Actually, the early years were special because everything was so new. This was my first online forum and I couldn't get over how much was going on.
I've read that quite a lot. To us, QuickSilver, B.W. and myself (and other newbies who maybe just lurk here, who rarely post), it still is new. That's why I'm always glad to see new names around here.
I saw the movie again yesterday, the last time was some months ago. God, it blew me away once more.
And you'd think I'd be over it by now...
2020 is a loooooong way off - I'll be 52 by then :o ;) , but I reckon Brokeback will always be special to me.
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As for scenes, I find one of the most telling, as far as Jack is concerned, is that where he and Randall are waiting for the girls to finish 'powdering their noses'. After/during R makes his suggestion and just as the girls can be heard exiting the building, the camera focuses on Jack's face and and it isn't until he turns further over his shoulder to look at the girls that I realised that his side glance had been, for but a few seconds, fully at R, plainly computing what had been said.
I'm quite convinced Jack didn't even pay attention to what Randall said. When he talked about the cabin, getting away, "fish some"... I'm sure all Jack could think of was Ennis.
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I agree, but I reckon there might have been a delayed reaction for him to take such a good long hard look at Randall. His heart must have ached to think that he could go down another 'mexico' road but Ennis's intransigence was the instigator of these sorties, was he not?
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I'm quite convinced Jack didn't even pay attention to what Randall said. When he talked about the cabin, getting away, "fish some"... I'm sure all Jack could think of was Ennis.
Hmm having an overreaching imagination today? ::)
BJD:
Do you really believe Ennis would ever make Jack happy? The whole story is about a man whose refusal to chance victimizes those who dare to love him.
Ennis lists of victims (known)
First trucker
Jack
Aguirre
Alma
Alma Jr.
Jenny
Biker #1
Biker #2
Assailant
Insert more names here:
You keep on dreamin, girl! ;D
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You reckon you'll still be around in 2020, QSA? ;)
andy: I dont but I am not now sure about my family! :D >:D :D
Do you have any memorable post, comments, bloggers? why? I would like to check them out. 8)
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As for scenes, I find one of the most telling, as far as Jack is concerned, is that where he and Randall are waiting for the girls to finish 'powdering their noses'.
There was nottin but fireworks goin on between Jack Twist and Randall Malone inside and outside that “Childress swankiest dance hall.”
I love the song “I Don’t Want to Say Goodbye” sang by Teddy Thompson in the dance scene, but it gets buried by Lashawn unstoppable babbling while twirling around the dance floor with Jack, who looks so handsome and charming all dressed up in that black leather cowboy outfit…Grrr daddy!
Then, both Jack and Randall (Mr. Animal husbandry…he, he!) are sitting outside, waitin for the wives, with their legs spread out impossibly far out, almost nervously touching, hands on crotches, no eye contact, and making things complicated for them both… “Got a little cabin down on Lake Kemp. Got a croppie house, little boat…says Randall…We outta go down there some weekend. Drink a little whiskey, fish some, get away. You know?
Jack gives him that look!
(hmm to be a fly on the wall)
(BlueJeansDarling stop reading right here) ;D
I like to think Jack finally found companionship (maybe love?) with Randall before the end of his loveless life. His dad, John Twist, said so to Ennis, the teary dummy: “Then this spring, he got another fella gonna come up here with him. Build a place, help run the ranch. Some ranch neighbor o' his down in Texas.” (Yes, I am purposely ignoring the rest of the line).
Anna Faris (Lashawn) nailed that 62 seconds scene with that annoying lil voice and sexy southern twang. She is not even from Texas but from somewhere back east. “Our husbands aint the least interested in dancing…Hey ain’t got a smidgen of rhythm between ‘em.” (I beg to disagree. mam!).
Hottie Teddy Thompson is not in the scene singing, in fact, the band does not have a front singer at all, just a smiling old Texan fiddler.
Sweet, complicated scene, brings a little hope to Jack!
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I'm quite convinced Jack didn't even pay attention to what Randall said. When he talked about the cabin, getting away, "fish some"... I'm sure all Jack could think of was Ennis.
I agree, but I reckon there might have been a delayed reaction for him to take such a good long hard look at Randall. His heart must have ached to think that he could go down another 'mexico' road but Ennis's intransigence was the instigator of these sorties, was he not?
Yes, exactly... a delayed reaction.
That night was the first time Jack and Lureen met Randall and LaShawn. When Randall suggested he and Jack ought to go "fish some", I'm not at all certain Jack was even interested in Randall.
What some might see as 'fireworks' between Jack and Randall... I don't see it. I don't see it at all. Randall was interested, but Jack? I doubt it. I see Jack's look at Randall as: 'what the **** did he just say?'
Remember, they were practically strangers at that point.
We never get to see much more of Jack's private life, do we? We never know for a fact that Jack and Randall became ehm... 'fishing buddies' ;)
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We never get to see much more of Jack's private life, do we? We never know for a fact that Jack and Randall became ehm... 'fishing buddies' ;)
There is a deleted scene from the movie that deals with this, and a pic can be found for it, it's usually called "Sneering Mechanics". You may recognize the scene from the trailer.
(https://ultimatebrokebackforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.findingbrokeback.com%2FDeleted_Scenes%2FSneeringMechanics_aM.jpg&hash=d0919431eb5dd0e8ddfe1d4232551de36569d17d)
The Sneering Mechanics scene was placed between Ennis’s meeting with Cassie and Carl in the bus station café and his second post office visit.
153 EXT: GAS STATION: ROAD OUTSIDE CHILDRESS, TEXAS: DAY: 1982: 153
JACK’S truck pulls up to the dirt lot next to the gas station. A MECHANIC, tire jack in hand, fiddling with a car, takes a beer from his BUDDY, who sits on a tire nearby. They both watch as RANDALL gets out of the truck and walks to his own truck parked in the lot, waving back at JACK. The MECHANIC trades knowing glances with his friend.
Their POV:
RANDALL’S truck pulls out of the lot, goes in one direction.
JACK’S pulls out after him, going in the opposite direction.
WIDE:
We hold on JACK’S truck, as it drives off into the distance.
[Script excerpt]
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....What some might see as 'fireworks' between Jack and Randall... I don't see it. I don't see it at all. Randall was interested, but Jack? I doubt it. I see Jack's look at Randall as: 'what the **** did he just say?'
Remember, they were practically strangers at that point...
Don't forget that connections between strangers in the gay world - and I don't think that when or where really matters on this point - is not unusual. Hook ups are hook ups and happen in the blink of an eye. Remember how Jack's pick up in Mexico is depicted?
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Hm. You're right, Andy.
It must be because I'm having trouble believing Jack and Randall might be together. And what do I know about hook ups in the gay world? ;)
One more question: do you also think that "that look" (as QuickSilver describes it) at the table is a hook up look then?
Jack is avoiding Randall's eyes. That's why I think Jack's not ready / interested yet. Plus their wives are with them.
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If Randall's, a most definite yes, but Jack's, no, BJD, though I'm certain that Jack is only too well aware of the long, steady looks Randall is giving him (the subject of gaydar has come up many times and in many threads). And further to Jack's motivation in looking elsewhere other than Ennis, it tells me of how very different our boys are and Ennis knows/came to know it only too well, hence his blow up at the lakeside and Jack's '...hard it gets...' tirade stating the differences between them very well.
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...That's why I think Jack's not ready / interested yet. Plus their wives are with them.
Though I reckon Jack may not be interested so early on, because of Ennis' constant belligerence and knock-backs, he's mastered the art of taking any opportunity, not that he didn't have an idea about such things early on in the story.
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Personally, I think Ennis could have made Jack more happier if he could have overcome his internalized fear when Jack was still alive.
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I think it's interesting to approach this whole "did Jack notice and hook up with Randall" thing from a different angle. Flash forward to that dreadful scene in the Twist house and Ennis being utterly destroyed by Mr. Twist's deliberate revelation.
"Then this spring he's got another one's goin a come up here with him.......some ranch neighbour a his from down in Texas"
Then comes Ennis' awful conviction that Jack's possibly indiscrete liaison with the "ranch neighbour" led directly to his death.
"So now he knew it had been the tire iron".
That's all we get in the story but it's enough for Ossana and Mc Murtrey to construct that entire scene of the Jack /Randall hook up and consequent affair. If you look at the scene at the table in slomo there's the most clear sequence of events between them. Jack, while fiddling with his cigarette checks under his eyelashes to see if Lashawn and Lureen are looking and then looks up directly at Randall, a really clear signal which is reciprocated. It's all over so fast, just fantastic acting.
That gives Randall the green light to make his proposal outside. I think to assume that Jack isn't listening to what he's saying and doesn't get the implication ignores what that whole scene is about. We have to understand that Jack is becoming so frustrated by Ennis' refusal to change that he's receptive to other offers.
I think that Jack knows exactly what's going on. After all he made the first move to let Randall know he was receptive. He instigated the connection between them. So why would he be surprised or ignore Randall's response?
That doesn't mean that he's forgotten Ennis but Jack's an opportunist. He'll take a chance.
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Yep. :)
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Don't forget that connections between strangers in the gay world - and I don't think that when or where really matters on this point - is not unusual. Hook ups are hook ups and happen in the blink of an eye.
"Speak for yourself. You may be a sinner, but I ain't yet had the opportunity." ;D
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There is a deleted scene from the movie that deals with this, and a pic can be found for it, it's usually called "Sneering Mechanics"
Geez…thanks CellarDweller for contributing to my already bizarre obsession with BBM. Guess who expend the rest of the evening looking for that deleted scene? I found myself in the dark annals of the internet with hackers, terrorists, and trolls seeking cheap thrills but no copies of that scene are available for now. It would have been so cool to see Jack and Randall having a little fun together…”drinking a little whiskey, fish some, get away. You know?” I do get how including that scene would take away the power from the main story. :'(
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... If you look at the scene at the table in slomo there's the most clear sequence of events between them. Jack, while fiddling with his cigarette checks under his eyelashes to see if Lashawn and Lureen are looking and then looks up directly at Randall, a really clear signal which is reciprocated. It's all over so fast, just fantastic acting.
That gives Randall the green light to make his proposal outside. I think to assume that Jack isn't listening to what he's saying and doesn't get the implication ignores what that whole scene is about. We have to understand that Jack is becoming so frustrated by Ennis' refusal to change that he's receptive to other offers.
Jeez... you're right! Just looked up that scene on YouTube.
Please believe me if I say I never noticed that look Jack gave Randall until just now. That is fantastic acting!
There's a whole lot more to that scene I hadn't noticed before. I actually feel a bit stupid now :">
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Jake did a lot of brilliant acting with his eyes, that it's so easy to miss - I certainly did. Going o/t: the little flicker when he says "Me neither" in reply to E's "I'm not queer", the NOT looking at Ennis washing, the pain when he goes back to Aguirre the next year, the reaction to Lureen's father with the newborn Bobby... (Got back on topic :))
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Thanks, Sara. Your comment makes me feel a lot better ;)
I think part of the reason is I focus on Jack being with Ennis most of the time - my fave scenes are the mountain scenes, as you probably know. It's easy to miss those subtile little hints in other scenes if you're not paying enough attention... and I wasn't, obviously ;)
But I must say I'm beginning to see the Randall scenes in a different light now.
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Jeez... you're right! Just looked up that scene on YouTube.
Please believe me if I say I never noticed that look Jack gave Randall until just now. That is fantastic acting!
There's a whole lot more to that scene I hadn't noticed before. I actually feel a bit stupid now :">
Of course you're not stupid! ;) This thing takes some exploring and thank God for slomo! Believe me it took a while before I saw all that was going on there. Some people never do get some of the subtleties and complain the film's incredibly slow and boring when in fact it's all happening.
There's another scene which calls for the slomo and it's when Ennis replies to Jack with "That's more than I spoke in a year". I wouldn't have believed the complexity of emotions flitting over his face in just one second. Amazing.
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As for scenes, I find one of the most telling, as far as Jack is concerned, is that where he and Randall are waiting for the girls to finish 'powdering their noses'. After/during R makes his suggestion and just as the girls can be heard exiting the building, the camera focuses on Jack's face and and it isn't until he turns further over his shoulder to look at the girls that I realised that his side glance had been, for but a few seconds, fully at R, plainly computing what had been said.
I remember when you pointed this out to me, Andy, and I've noticed it every time I've watched the movie since!
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I've been thinking about Jack and Randall a lot lately. And I really don't see the fireworks at all. Yes, I also see that Jack is interested, giving the looks and the signs. But fireworks....no don't see that....The dance scene and the look on Jack's face always seems a little sad to me....I do think he found a friend in Randall and some sexual release(hope that is good english...difficult finding the right words in an other language...)
And I certainly think Jack tries to move forward in his life. Maybe even thinking of a life with Randall. But for me the "sometimes I miss you so bad...." line and the way he says this, immediately after his confession seeing the rancher's "wife", proves that it's not love he feels for Randall. He's still deeply in love with Ennis, IMO Randall doesn't even come near that feeling.
I realy disagree with you QuickSilverA, for seeing Ennis as a dummy. I personally feel so bad for him. To be frozen with fear...that hurts like hell! IMO, to be unable to get rid of these feelings doesn't make you a teary dummy. And hey....the Jacks in this world aren't perfect either...
I realy respect your opinion though :). Sorry...I'm always reacting a little bit sensitive when people are "attacking"Ennis ;). To some degree I understand him so well...I Always cry when I see the hurt on his face,especially in the last Cassie scene....It's so hard for him fighting this battle :'(
I'm one of the persons who feel that in the end,Ennis made some progress. I feel that after his argument with Jack, the realisation is finally kicking in........Much too late though....
And I bet Jack would be running back into Ennis arms in a heartbeat if he had known this.....
Oh well, I think my wounds are still too fresh. It's only a month ago seeing BBM. I know it's selfish, but I really hate the thought of Jack and Randall together....makes me sad :'(
I don't like to watch the dance-scene. I tend to stop after the reunion :-\ But when I feel I want to torture myself, I watch the big argument and the closet/shirt scene........And when I reeeeeeaaaaaally want to be tortured I listen to "he was a friend of mine".......and after that the slomo flashback(dozy embrace) on youtube,box of tissues close at hand............O god...that sounds sick doesn't it ::)
I need to get a life I guess ;D
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Yep. :)
Nope. Randall's a nothing and remains a nothing. The way he came on to Jack is just like a pickup line. Jack looks as if he has been stunned into eternity.
Jack's thoughts are for Ennis - and vice versa - and noone else.
kathy
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I presume AP approved of Randall being introduced to flesh out OMT's "he's got another one", although of course whether or not he's telling the truth is one of the fascinating ambiguities.
Yes, it distresses me to think that Jack might have become physically and perhaps emotionally involved with Randall, but I can't dismiss it. If Jack was having a day of "I can't make it on a couple a high-altitude fucks", Randall may indeed have stepped in at the opportune moment.
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I don't believe for a minute that Randall was/would have been anything more than a diversion for Jack who was so devastated by Ennis' continued refusal to comply with wishes for that 'good life'. Randall would have been, I'm sure, worse than second best, but a viable, none the less.
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... Jack looks as if he has been stunned into eternity.
Jack's thoughts are for Ennis - and vice versa - and noone else.
kathy
That's what I thought as well... Until malachite45 pointed out to me that:
... If you look at the scene at the table in slomo there's the most clear sequence of events between them. Jack, while fiddling with his cigarette checks under his eyelashes to see if Lashawn and Lureen are looking and then looks up directly at Randall, a really clear signal which is reciprocated. It's all over so fast, just fantastic acting.
That gives Randall the green light to make his proposal outside. I think to assume that Jack isn't listening to what he's saying and doesn't get the implication ignores what that whole scene is about. We have to understand that Jack is becoming so frustrated by Ennis' refusal to change that he's receptive to other offers.
I think that Jack knows exactly what's going on. After all he made the first move to let Randall know he was receptive. He instigated the connection between them. So why would he be surprised or ignore Randall's response?
That doesn't mean that he's forgotten Ennis but Jack's an opportunist. He'll take a chance.
I've watched that scene at the table over and over since then, and I have to agree: as much as I hate to think Jack was involved with Randall... he might have been.
I still think Ennis was Jack's one and only love, though. I'm still sure Jack was thinking about Ennis while Randall was talking about "getting away".
Isn't it fabulous that one little film can do this? So many people have different feelings and thoughts about certain scenes. It's a credit to Annie Proulx, Ang Lee and all of the cast :)
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Eeew…they are here…You Ennis’ fans are like zombies roaming the earth for any humans who have escaped his spells. ;) ;) ;)
O god...that sounds sick doesn't it.....I need to get a life I guess ;D
I feel your pain purelove, I was there couple of months ago, overwhelmed, crying for days after seeing the movie for the first time since it came out.
If you go back to the early posts, you will see most people share your feelings about Jack and Randall or poor Ennis and Jack. Most people feel sorry for Ennis and admired Jack for putting up with his bs for so long. “Stand by your man…and show the world you love him!” Ennis’ fans seem to sing in unison with Ms. Tammy Wynette, even if he gives ya a pair of blue eyes or an unbearable broken heart. I don’t get it! ::)
In an uncanny manner BBM abuses it audience as Ennis Del Mar abuses Jack and those who dare to get close to him. It lures us with homoerotic smooth talk, puppy love scenes, and endless acts of possibilities (reunions, divorces, dances) only to emotionally beat us to a pulp when challenging its/his lack of clarity or direction.
Yet like Jack, Cassie, or Alma Jr., we miserably yearn for more…What’s up with that? ::)
The difference between the two dudes (Randall and Ennis) was gargantuan (love that word). Ennis could but would never articulate a charming invitation as Randall did outside the dance, or express any appreciation for those who loved him. Ennis loved to push buttons and do things to crash the party every time he and Jack were together. He was D drama queen!
Au contraire, Randall was a good looking, educated, well-mannered man who obviously was able to give Jack “a good life” even if it was for a short period of time. :'(
The whole thing feels better if I believe so! 8)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwBirf4BWew
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Hi QuickSilverA!
I understand what you are saying and I also understand your view on Ennis.I'm just not sharing your opinion......What I'm trying to say(and it is not easy to express my feelings in english :P....),is that I feel Ennis isn't out there to hurt others on purpose. People filled with fear often hurt others and themselves. They often are simply unable to show much of their feelings.And it is not easy to let go of fear(in Ennis' case homophobia).....This doesn't make it right to hurt others though,I understand......
I'm not only feeling sorry for Ennis, but also for Jack.I'm often "angry"at Ennis for not seeing/understanding the great love Jack is giving him. I think Jack is feeling that same kind of mixed feelings,love,understanding and anger sometimes. This is a major factor in BBM,they love and understand and realy love eachother.They are not perfect....People don't fall in love with perfect people.....They fall in love with others with all characteristics,good and bad.
I understand why somebody like Jack wants to move on with a new love,but what makes it so emotional for us/viewers, is that we've been shown the depth of their love. Ang Lee sort of let us fall in love with them too ::) We know Ennis loves Jack with all his heart.Jack doesn't allways see what we see. How frustrating!
So,my conclusion.....they love eachother too much to let go...I'm choosing serious denial in the Jack and Randall "getting a live together"issue and for now I stick to that ;D
It is indeed wonderfull that BBM lets people think about love and life,BBM does that to people... Eveybody's opinion is the right one IMO ....Whatever works for someone is good :)
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Eeew…they are here…You Ennis’ fans are like zombies roaming the earth for any humans who have escaped his spells. ;) ;) ;)
I feel your pain purelove, I was there couple of months ago, overwhelmed, crying for days after seeing the movie for the first time since it came out.
If you go back to the early posts, you will see most people share your feelings about Jack and Randall or poor Ennis and Jack. Most people feel sorry for Ennis and admired Jack for putting up with his bs for so long. “Stand by your man…and show the world you love him!” Ennis’ fans seem to sing in unison with Ms. Tammy Wynette, even if he gives ya a pair of blue eyes or an unbearable broken heart. I don’t get it! ::)
In an uncanny manner BBM abuses it audience as Ennis Del Mar abuses Jack and those who dare to get close to him. It lures us with homoerotic smooth talk, puppy love scenes, and endless acts of possibilities (reunions, divorces, dances) only to emotionally beat us to a pulp when challenging its/his lack of clarity or direction.
Yet like Jack, Cassie, or Alma Jr., we miserably yearn for more…What’s up with that? ::)
The difference between the two dudes (Randall and Ennis) was gargantuan (love that word). Ennis could but would never articulate a charming invitation as Randall did outside the dance, or express any appreciation for those who loved him. Ennis loved to push buttons and do things to crash the party every time he and Jack were together. He was D drama queen! Au contraire, Randall was a good looking, educated, well-mannered man who obviously was able to give Jack “a good life” even if it was for a short period of time. :'(
The whole thing feels better if I believe so! 8)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwBirf4BWew
This post takes me back to the very beginning seven years ago when views became polarized to an extreme degree. I think that in time you'll maybe find that you get some balanced insight into the conflict which was tearing Ennis apart. He certainly did not "love" to push buttons. That implies he took deliberate pleasure in his actions Nor did he enjoy the pain he brought to all those around him as a consequence of his inability to overcome his crushing fear. Yes he left a trail of destruction and that's a direct consequence, not of any evil intent of his, but as a result of the climate of homophobia in which he lived plus his childhood trauma. How Jack ever emerged from his background as such a free spirit is a minor miracle. Sadly Ennis couldn't and that's the tragedy.
I also don't think it's the typical reaction of a "drama queen" to collapse in private anguish in an alley. Any self respecting drama queen would have thrown a hissy fit in public. ;)
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Yep malachite45, well said.That's what I sort of meant too :)Wish I could express myself so well in english ::)
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Thanks, Malachite, for putting into words what I feel so strongly. I've never had any sense of 'blame' towards Ennis - I just agonise with him over his pain and conflicting emotions.
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I think Jack may have had an affair with Randall. John Twist did mention that Jack was planning to bring 'another fella' up to Lightening Flat to help the Twists' run their ranch. That 'other fella' may have been Randall. Who knows?
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I think Jack may have had an affair with Randall too, but it was only that.I feel he didn't feel love, Jack was frustrated.If Jack would have seen the change in Ennis(which I always see) after their last argument, he would never been thinking of quiting him.....Randall had a small part in the movie.IMO if he meant more to Jack, we would have been seeing more of him.....
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purelove: you are beautifully expressing yourself...so keep on blogging! :D :D :D
You are right, Ennis was the young, sexually confused vagrant who collapsed in private anguish in an alley that summer of 63. The same boy who Jack loved so much and wished him to forever remain the same. Unfortunately, I was referring to the drunken, deadbeat, violent man Ennis became later in life leaving anything but that trail of destruction u so love to justify or minimize. I don’t mean to offend, but I hope never to find a “balanced insight” into the disturbing worldview of that type of man. I was being nice when I called him a drama queen. :-X
Although not much better than Ennis’ backgrounds, Jack emerged from his past as a free spirit, as you called him, because he chose to do so, like most us do, regardless of all childhood trauma. Jack took advantage of every opportunity that came his way and tried hard to make lemons into lemonade by becoming a dedicated dad to a disable child, a successful business partner with a complicated wife, and a devoted lover to a shut-in. But Jack was no sociopath. >:(
Life is the result of the choices we make. ::)
Can we talk about something else? ;D ;D ;D
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QuickSilverA,that wasn't my post you are refering to, it was malachite45... . ;)
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We know Ennis loves Jack with all his heart. Jack doesn't allways see what we see. How frustrating!
Yeah.
Every time I see Jack driving away after their summer on Brokeback, looking back at Ennis in his mirror, I think: "Jack! Don't leave him, he needs you! Get back there!" :-\
If I have to pick the one scene in the film that 'got' me, it's that one. Don't know why exactly. The sense of loss (for both of them), the sense of loneliness, of hurt... it's there.
It's already there on the mountain, but Jack manages to make me smile with his little lariat game, and then I always try to ignore the fight they had - and then there's that beautiful, beautiful scene in the parking lot... Jack is desparately trying to make Ennis understand, but he just doesn't have the words and Ennis is too scared, too confused about his feelings.
To see Jack driving away without a hug or a handshake, or even a proper goodbye - it hurts. It hurts every time.
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purelove: you are beautifully expressing yourself...so keep on blogging! :D :D :D
You are right, Ennis was the young, sexually confused vagrant who collapsed in private anguish in an alley that summer of 63. The same boy who Jack loved so much and wished him to forever remain the same. Unfortunately, I was referring to the drunken, deadbeat, violent man Ennis became later in life leaving anything but that trail of destruction u so love to justify or minimize. I don’t mean to offend, but I hope never to find a “balanced insight” into the disturbing worldview of that type of man. I was being nice when I called him a drama queen. :-X
Although not much better than Ennis’ backgrounds, Jack emerged from his past as a free spirit, as you called him, because he chose to do so, like most us do, regardless of all childhood trauma. Jack took advantage of every opportunity that came his way and tried hard to make lemons into lemonade by becoming a dedicated dad to a disable child, a successful business partner with a complicated wife, and a devoted lover to a shut-in. But Jack was no sociopath. >:(
Life is the result of the choices we make. ::)
Can we talk about something else? ;D ;D ;D
Yes of course. I was just responding to what you wrote which is different to what I think.
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Yep malachite45, well said.That's what I sort of meant too :)Wish I could express myself so well in english ::)
You're welcome. And your English is great. :)
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Thanks, Malachite, for putting into words what I feel so strongly. I've never had any sense of 'blame' towards Ennis - I just agonise with him over his pain and conflicting emotions.
Thank you. Like you I don't feel that the issues are in stark black and white, right or wrong. The characters are so complex aren't they, especially Ennis? I think to apportion blame on any side is pointless and one dimensional. For me the bigger issue is the background of homophobia which made a victim of each and every one of them. Surely that's the whole point of the story because if you take that factor away none of the tragedy would have happened? These characters remind me of insects trapped on a fly paper. Struggle as they might they're never going to get free. And maybe in order to drive home the message that's inevitable.
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Greetings Brokeback Mt. enthusiasts! I got lucky. I'm glad the threads are still alive. Or this one is so I'm posting here regarding several points.
Several days ago I watched this phenomenal film for the second time and it grabbed me viscerally in a way much different from the first. This is my fourth day of crying so I've had plenty of time to catch up and think about things. I must stop the flow of tears and move on and this chance to comment might do the trick.
There is a universal emotional experience with this movie, even with people who pride themselves on being cynical and above emotional manipulation which is what images set to music always is. The weeping that ensues is for all of us. We cry for the love we can never possess. We cry out in isolation and loneliness. I think there is a greater stigma surrounding loneliness than there is around homosexuality.
Which brings me to my view that the story is not about homophobia. Ennis is our hero and spiritual guide. He is a mystic living by the river and looking upward to the spiritual heights of the mountains. He teaches us painful truths about the human condition.
People say that Jack is the most well adjusted since he seems to accept his homosexuality. I think the reverse. I think Jack is the more tragic figure. He doesn't even realize that his problem is delusion and fantasy building , not homosexuality.
The theme here is independence and freedom versus the longing for home and intimacy.
Ennis learned from the beginning that no one would take care of him so he had to cultivate separation. His survival depended on it. So I think he is more at peace with the distance between them despite the acute pain that this desire causes him. The nature of taboo and desire is another main theme for me. Doesn't taboo normally heighten sexual pleasure? Would snatching that forbidden aspect from homosexual sex diminish it ultimately?
I feel that once Ennis recovers from the acute stage of pain, he will do well. Nature is his love. I think his impossibly profound sorrow adds to his spirituality. It's larger than life, whereas Jack's pain is more immature and personal. His belief in fantasy would have ruined their happiness if they'd gone off to paradise forever. Once again, Ennis in all his wisdom would have recovered, but I fear that Jack would not. So actually, Jack dangled pain and deeper disappointment before Ennis. I think Ennis had sound judgment. The end for me was a reaffirmation of the choices he made. He did well. His daughter obviously loves him ad he can count on that for the rest of his life. He didn't fail her.
Plus he sacrificed an immeasurable amount to be with Jack , but Jack seems oblivious. He quit his jobs to be with Jack giving up all hope for a materially comfortable existence. This goes along with his spiritual nature. So even though on one level Ennis loved Jack in an animalistic way, I think his love was more of the religious kind. There is an innocence and purity about Ennis which could be the source of our heartbreak as we come to know him. We want him to be happy, don't we? We want to be the object of his larger than life devotion. I think we simply want to be loved by Ennis. Ennis ends up free and hopefully can find some mundane comfort as his daughter suggests. He is a man who cherishes freedom and his choices reflect that. But his willingness to sacrifice once again for the love of his child ensures that his path ahead holds promise. He's slowly learning about human relationship. He's coming in from the cold and Jack helped him accomplish that. He teaches us that it's OK to be lonely. The cures are temporary, but they come. Ideally we learn to live in the present and merge courageously with life's benefits
It's interesting that Heath died so soon after, so our object of longing has been taken just like in the story. And we grieve. But I "swear", this is the last day of crying for me. The transcendence of sex is a positive. The animal part of our nature is pleasurable, no doubt, as represented by the sheep, which actually was a bother to them. The uplifting level of love they experienced is the legacy that can inspire us forever. Heath's acting performance was on that level and even Annie Proulx was in awe of it. He went out in a flame of glory. We are the lucky ones. The Brokeback junkies.
"I swear" is an old Southern expression. Kind of like, "Holy shit" or "I'll be doggone." It's an expression of surprise or awe and an inability to put into words what one is feeling. They say, "I swan", however, out of Baptist respect. To swear is to pledge an oath, so that is probably implied.
Brokeback Mountain is a stunning accomplishment.
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Hello Hellen, and welcome to The Ultimate Brokeback Forum.
;D
I'm posting a few links for you below, you may find them useful. You are NOT required to post there, but if you want to, that's just fine!
New Members--Introduce Yourselves Here (http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=8797.0)
How Brokeback affected me (http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=101.0) (This thread is locked as "read only" now, but it has great posts to read)
How Brokeback affected me --continued (http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=23626.0) (this thread is opened to new posts)
The Film & Book (http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=23626.0) General Brokeback discussion
Scene By Scene (http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php?board=34.0) To discuss specific scenes from the movie
Elements & Themes (http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php?board=61.0) A place to analyze specific characters and situations.
Enjoy reading, and I hope to see you posting more soon!
By the way, you can call me Chuck.
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Hi Hellen!
Another new Brokie! Yaaaay! Welcome! :)
Very interesting post, I must say. It's always good to hear new opinions.
Enjoy your stay here!
Sonja.
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Hi Hellen!
Great to see another new Brokie here! Loved to read your post :) I joined this forum more then a week ago, because I needed to share my feelings...Saw BBM a month ago for the first time and like you was crying for days! Heck.......I'm still crying ::)..... This forum gives so much comfort knowing you're not alone. Hope it will bring comfort to you too :)
I'm stunned how a movie affects so many people ...love it :)
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Chuck and Darlin! Thank you mightily for your welcome. Yes. I am a official Brokie.
Brokeback threw me a curve and I'm still digesting the intense experience this time around. I've been posting at political sites much to my sorrow and have been trying to wean myself off the addicton for some time since it is so painful to travel through people's tortured fear and hate. Considerate it done. Brokeback Mountain has shown me the road out. I was planning on breaking free totally, but since my enthusiasm for the subject here is so potent, I caved and joined in. I'll put some information on those links, Chuck. Thank you.
The interesting thing re the first mirror scene is that after the first viewing, that was the scene that stayed with me and popped up all the time in my mind. Mirrors make things look better than so called reality and I think this defines Jacks fantasy nature. The mirror was the alternate dimension he wanted to enter and Ennis, of course, was the guide. The reversal is significant. Jack probably never knew deep love before, but he was looking obviously. The same reversal happens at the end when he sees Ennis walking away. So he couldn't keep what was in the mirror. The reflection of himself included this other man, so maybe he was too dependent on Ennis. Ennis just goes about being himself and going his own way. Then when Jack steps out of the mirror and finds him crying against the wall, he is rejected. It looks like he can't believe it's really happening and perhaps Jack is about to sort of face reality for the first time. Still, he knows, Ennis knows, and we all know that his man loves him more than he can stand and this, as we all know is the redeeming truth of this story. Annie Proulx states that herself. She sings the praises of love's possibility against all odds, even though she herself has been married and divorced thee times, I believe. She always goes back to her solitude in Wyoming. I think she identifies with Ennis and put all her longing in his character development. That's probably why he's such a deep harrowing and riveting character that starts the river of tears into which we all can't keep from jumping.
Some shift in people seems to take place and for me, the separation from the last forum I belonged to was tough, but from here on out, I hope to adjust the relationship into something more noble and lofty. I have loved and I know what to do.
It was like Jake had eyes in the back of his head, but the mirror brought it into focus. Plus I think he fell hard for Ennis immediately and remained somewhat furtive so as not to scare him off. They're both hunters. I was entranced by the way he didn't look at Ennis's naked body in full daylight but just absorbed him with those 3rd, 4th, and 5th eyes. They both took love and relationship to exponential heights. Even if we can't keep it, just experiencing love on this level enriches our lives permanently. Sadly, the place where this thrives is in fiction. That will have to do. So rather than busting into new frontiers of homosexual acceptance (although it happened somewhat), I think Brokeback Mountain rode into new territory in the realm of the heart. Another scene that did it was when Ennis wrapped himself around Jack from behind saying he was sleeping on his feet like a horse. It was unbearably tender and nurturing. I think in the book, Ennis said his mother used to say that to him. Ennis was powerfully but subtly nurturing. He did the cooking among many other things, and when we meet Jack's parents at the end we can see why he responded so to Ennis's understated endearments. Calling his daughter "Junior" was another one. It was amazing for me to see Heath dive into this character so completely. Maybe he lost himself permanently in there. The mirror also suggests that it is our own selves we are seeking, yet we primp and preen before it in hopes that another will see us more favorably.
Another beautiful touch for me was the water and how clean they were despite their dirt producing environment. People like to cling desperately to their belief in homosexuality's prurience and this film did a lot to dispel the exaggerated view. Had the men been totally driven by their lust they would not have separated. It was there, but their sex was so obviously a path to touch, warmth, and tenderness.
Well, enough for the moment. I have to get a copy of Brokeback Mountain. Can you imagine a Brokie without a copy in the house? Correction due.
But hey! I was just notified about another comment. I hear ya Purelove. Yes. Movies are potent. America led the way in popular cinema in the beginning of last century and maybe she will again.
Brokeback Mountain is already a classic and will weave its way further and further into society as time continues. Love is a good idea. I noticed where Ang Lee made the film right after his father died and he meant it as a tribute to his memory. It all comes together sometimes. I almost went to NYU film school and now I know why I wanted to be a film maker.
Purelove. You'll like this one. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9C3Q1XxNV9s (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9C3Q1XxNV9s)
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Thank you Hellen :) This kind of compilations on youtube always turn me to mush....sobbing like a baby...well, someday I'll get over it ;D This one is beautiful,great song..... :'(
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A Brokeback Mountain music video I hadn't seen before! And believe me, I've seen a lot of them ;D
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I'm having a rather hard time overcoming this latest attack of Brokeback fever. If someone came up with a remedy he or she could probably make a fortune. I think there are more Brokies out there than we realize. Some are afraid to admit it. It's too bad that people feel ashamed of being suckers for a sad story.
Speaking of classic.....
As you know there are many books written about the BB phenomenon. At the library today I tried to get a hold of some copies. As it turns out they are locked in some sort of crypt and are forbidden to go into circulation. That's how precious they are. Of course, I'm in Colorado where western history is sacrosanct, so that might be part of it. I guess since the remnants of western history are disappearing they are diligently preserving what they can. That bodes well. I'm looking forward to entering the history crypt to read the sociological analyses of the already treasured Brokeback Mountain.
I also noticed that when Ennis embraced Jack to comment on his sleeping like a horse he seemed to be softly singing to him. Ennis is misunderstood by the crowd. I think he used his own homophobia as a shield against the real reasons he had to travel his solo path. The continuing analyses are interesting and reveal more about ourselves than the protagonists.
Another thing that struck me as the cruelest blow in the story was when Jack's father told Ennis that Jack had found another man. That seemed like an intentional act of hostility that was largely missing from the others. For me there was an essential goodness in most of the characters and I'm not sure where the source of that is.
Maybe those of us who love this film so much are mature and wise enough to accept less than happy endings. I swing both ways, but I generally find that tragic outcomes are sort of a relief in that I can refrain from waiting for the ax to fall. My real preference is for ambiguity, the defining characteristic of reality as I perceive it.
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Maybe those of us who love this film so much are mature and wise enough to accept less than happy endings. I swing both ways, but I generally find that tragic outcomes are sort of a relief in that I can refrain from waiting for the ax to fall. My real preference is for ambiguity, the defining characteristic of reality as I perceive it.
I definately think it's the more mature audience who appreciates BBM. There are so, so many layers to this story - I just don't think most teenagers could even begin to understand all of it. Even I don't, and I'm very mature ;)
I first saw the film last year and I still discover new insights. Reading this forum has helped enormously. I hestitated in joining the forum at first, because I thought there wasn't anything I could add - everything had been said before. After six months of lurking, I couldn't resist ;D
I'm having a rather hard time overcoming this latest attack of Brokeback fever. If someone came up with a remedy he or she could probably make a fortune. I think there are more Brokies out there than we realize.
I've noticed there are new people joining this forum nearly every day. I think that's awesome! It proves to me BBM hasn't lost its power yet.
I once read a review that said: "In 50 years time, this movie will be a classic". To me, it already is a classic, just like you said in your earlier post.
Are you reading all the other Scene-by-Scene threads as well, Hellen? Some pretty fascinating posts in there! :)
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I liked the first scene at Aguirre’s because it is full of symbolism such as slamming the door on Ennis face, name calling, mixed messages, lack of greetings or dismissals are used to established the alpha male in the group. Unfortunately, they are still playing those games around here. I seriously doubt Aguirre drove a fancy car like that all American 1960 Rambler. Car too small for a big **** like him!
Yeah; every time I view that scene I think hey, I've worked for that guy! More than once, unfortunately.
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Yeah Darlin'. I'm in the mature club myself. I think the changes I've gone through in the last few years opened me up to the BBM effect more and more which is why this last episode has pretty much devastated me.
I first saw the film last year and I still discover new insights. Reading this forum has helped enormously. I hestitated in joining the forum at first, because I thought there wasn't anything I could add - everything had been said before. After six months of lurking, I couldn't resist.
I've lost interest in most discussion forums. They have too much repetition and parroting. I've noticed where the people here have highly diverse opinions and that others do not try to dissuade them too much. I can see why you gave into the temptation to post.
I was so overwhelmed by the moment after my last viewing that I encountered no resistance to speak up here, other than my feeling that I should be walking away from the internet altogether. We shall see.
There is a lot to catch up on and still more to cover.
Maybe a revival of interest would be helpful in this phlegmatic political environment where little is moving besides gay rights. It's on hold now, but I think it will be important again when all the election campaigns get going. It's an opportune moment, and people have had a chance to absorb. The homophobic realities still lurk under the surface of the new and fashionable apparent acceptance. Little by little the acceptance will come and BBM can always help facilitate that movement. People would do well to look at the film again and we can encourage that. The experience will work its way through society and into the subconscious gradually which is the best and most enduring way. Same sex marriage is still a novelty and it will take time to work it realistically into the social fabric.
I'm prone to snatching wild theories out of my imagination, some of them decidedly unpopular even if completely rational. I have one now and maybe the way to express it would be to start a thread. I'll have to get past my virginity, however.
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Welcome Hellen, you will find plenty of support in this forum especially with the Ennis’ fans club. Keep on blogging, dont hold back like Ennis Del Mar, it will kill ya and them around ya if you do!!! ;D ;D
Yeah; every time I view that scene I think hey, I've worked for that guy! More than once, unfortunately.
Oh yeah, the one thing we don’t lack is in this world especially out West are charmers like Aguirre and the teary dummy vagabond.
Talking about cars, trucks and the never ending roads and trailers in this story. I dig the trucks in this movie, especially Jack’s trucks. The reunion happens between trucks, and the next day, we watched the boys flying back to their Mountain high in a newer 1964 Ford F-250, a sign o Jack’s social class upward mobility. All went to hell after the following scene when Ennis tells the tragic story of a couple tough old birds. Drama queen!
The two most wretched scenes in the movie both have trucks all over the boys. The devastating “I wish I Knew How to Quit You” and the hopelessly sad “After the Divorce or Kind of the Road” scene. We watch in horror as Ennis tells Jack he is too busy for a real relationship, like he is some hot shot CEO on a ranch or copper mine. The dork can’t even keep up with temp jobs, child support, or monthly visits. Busy instead of facing reality!
From hopeful elation to total devastation, poor Jack is sent home crying in his blue 1978 Ford F-100. That drive from Riverton to El Paso is over 1000 miles, even today it takes almost 24 hours without stops to get there, and another half of day to get home to Childress, Texas. It must have been the loneliest, most heart wrenching drive along the Pecos River ever. No wonder Jack looks so sad crusin for senioritos in Ciudad Juarez.
But that was the difference between those two lovers. Ennis was so dumb, so shut down, the only risk he would ever take was “goin around the coffeepot lookin for the handle” while Jack was willing to risk it all, drive half of continent away, cross any boundaries, any borders or frontera to find some comfort and love.
To quote another blogger: “the King of the Road should have finally realized that Ennis would never be capable of anything more and moved on to find the kind of happiness that he needed with someone else”
How about sweet, shy, Randall Malone? I think they finally did cuchi-cuchi…grrrr ::) ::)
(u Ennies zombies stay away from me!) :D :D :D
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Oh poor pitiful Jack. Talk about dumb and unrealistic. Ennis told him 10,000 times that it wasn't going to work, but the teary-eyed Jack Twist couldn't get it through his bull damaged head immersed in a righteous alcoholic haze.
Jack was willing to risk it all, drive half of continent away, cross any boundaries, any borders or frontera to find some comfort and love.
Really? is that what it was down Mexico way? Comfort and love was the job of the unrealistic dork, however temporary. Anyone knows that the way to get your man is by providing an ultra long flexible leash. August? November? What difference does it make as long as he shows and the dork always does.
It's chemistry. Some people like dorks. Some people like social climbing rodeo stars. Some people like trucks. Some people like kings. Most people like horses. Some people actually believe in cattle ranches in the Twilight Zone.
“the King of the Road should have finally realized that Ennis would never be capable of anything more and moved on to find the kind of happiness that he needed with someone else”
How about sweet, shy, Randall Malone? I think they finally did cuchi-cuchi…grrrr Roll Eyes Roll Eyes
Well yes. The King finally did risk it all and forge courageously ahead with Randall catching crappies in some dirty stream no doubt. I think that's what got him killed. Local communities always know. He should have stayed with the dork. The dork knew best.
You're taking it too personally Quicksilver. Ennis probably wouldn't want you any more than you'd want him so you are eternally off the hook. No Brokebacks for you. But there's always warm and loving Mexico.
By the way, don't ever order soup.
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Oh dear, I did it again ::) Ellen, please don’t mind me and my way, way sacrilegious “I hate Ennis” ideations, I am kinda having fun with it. I went to a high school full of Ennisss. Poor dears takes them 30 years
to get a GED... if evers. These days them Ennissss are either cooking meth terrorizing the neighborhood or during hard time becuz of it. Have no empathy for none of them fools! >:D ------
;D Just a little levitation at the end of hard working day! ;D
I started posting in this thread to get away from Ennis' fans and because older/previous bloggers were discussing other scenes, characters, or elements such as trucks, music, and domestic violence. I was hoping to discuss some of those issues but I don’t think there is any interest other than talk about Ennis and Jack and Ennis and Jack Ennis and Jack…Oh well! ;D
Puerto Peñasco aka Rocky Point for spring breaks...sunny beaches, lots o' booze, and naked boys....those were the days! those were the days! 8)
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I don't mind, Quicksilver. You can hate whomever you want. But extending that feeling to those who feel empathy with Ennis significantly diminishes your love pool. We all blanket others with perceptions that spring from our total personal experience, and I don't really quarrel with that. No sympathy for "them fools" gets perilously close to prejudice.
I love Jack too. This is all a testament to the power of the tale and the skill of storytelling. Although sometimes excessive, the urge to merge with these characters is fascinating. We just can't quit them, can we?
The prejudice against uneducated rural people is one that disturbs me. I grew up around the full spectrum and know that the circumstances beyond their control sometimes cut their higher achievement off at the knees. The intellectual and moral superiority game is reaching unhealthy heights lately. The high and mighty educated crowd is showing signs of dimwittedness, and I'm concerned since they are trying to socially engineer our society. I thank my lucky stars that some of those poor suckers who couldn't get their GEDs are now ace mechanics since I love cars and mine are old.
I understand why you would want to escape Ennis fans, but is this the place to do that? We're talking about feelings here. Just as Jack couldn't control his longing for Ennis, Ennis couldn't help being himself, either. To me that's the fundamental point of the story. We are who we are and all strain to live it out with relative freedom. Even the constraints of society ultimately fail. I'm opposed to shame controlling the more rustic members of our country and I'm confident that a GED wouldn't remedy the situation. It's the long nose of elite society that is the source of trouble and historically, Americans in general have been looked down upon by our European ancestors. Yet American cultural output is devoured as if survival depended on it. All the Jacks and Ennises we give birth to are a vital part. Ennis might not have ever been a composer on the level of Vivaldi, but he could hum a lullaby. And Jack could kick up some dirt singing the praises of the lord. We all know that out there away from civilization, Jesus is often the genie in the liquor bottle.
Anyway, we love who we love and it should not require justification nor even explanation. As one who was destined to be a writer at one point, the creation of living characters in fiction will never bore me. Any society is an amazing mix of real and unreal people. The elevation of Jack and Ennis is revealing in ways both personal and collective.
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I wonder how accurate Jack's ...''something I don't hardly ever get''... was, considering his ongoing thing with Randall?
Not sure how Jack's visit(s) to Mexico were as driven by the need for 'love' so much as a purely sexual outlet.
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... America led the way in popular cinema in the beginning of last century and maybe she will again...
Hellen, I’m unsure what you mean by this.
It appears that American film, if what’s being produced nowadays is any guide, is already “leading the way” in “popular cinema.”
(i.e. film for the ‘masses.’ :D)
Although D.W Griffith’s silent film In Old California was shot in 1910, the first actual feature film shot in Hollywood was Cecil B. De Mille’s The Squaw Man of 1914, but the earliest known narrative feature film in the world is actually The Story of the Kelly Gang, based on the life of the bushranger Ned Kelly, filmed in Australia in 1906:
(https://ultimatebrokebackforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi412.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fpp201%2Frasalgethi_photo%2FDCF%2520Other%2520Scenes%2FThe_Story_of_the_Kelly_Gang_1906_zps994a1aae.jpg&hash=d3043a476faa0e8c0585114aeaece17dfcf067e5)
The film was given a week of trial screenings in Victorian country towns in late 1906. This proved enormously successful and the movie already recouped its budget for these screenings alone.
Its Melbourne debut was made on 26 December 1906. Although the country screenings had been silent, when the movie was screened in Melbourne it was accompanied by live sound effects, including blank cartridges as gunshots, pebbles shaken for rain, metal sheets wobbled for storms and coconut shells beaten together to simulate hoofbeats. At later screenings a lecturer would also appear explaining the action.
Many groups at the time, including some politicians and the police interpreted the film as glorifying criminals and in Benalla and Wangaratta the film was banned in 1907, and then again in Victoria in 1912.
The film toured Australia for over 20 years and was also shown in New Zealand, Ireland and Britain. The backers and exhibitors made "a fortune" from the film, perhaps in excess of £25,000.
While I don’t know whether this would constitute “leading the way in popular cinema in the beginning of the last century,” I’m enjoying your posts.
A breath of fresh air here is nothing to be sneezed at. :)
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It appears that American film, if what’s being produced nowadays ins is any guide, is already “leading the way” in “popular cinema.”
Yes. It seems that way. Thanks Paul for the well presented historical information. I was referring to the big rise of serial films and the rise of the powerful studio system at the turn of the century. Our ever busy entrepreneurs grabbed the patents and rose to dominance with the tide of technical achievements. The film industry is definitely universal and the top slots change when innovations come or a great new film maker influences the direction of the times. Ang Lee says that he can't make his movies anywhere but Hollywood because of the technical resources. But there are some great emerging markets and with the advent of digital, things could change. There seems to be a diminishing of studio control and with the increasing power of independent film makers there is a lot to look forward to.
Of course, television threw a curve into the proceedings but that seems to be in flux also. I tossed my TV into the dumpster 35 years ago and I lost track of our cultural output. I was not moved by the movies and big musical acts in the years that followed, but then I caved and and got a computer. Now I'm catching up. I hope it's a portent of things to come and that my high standards will be met. Smaller budgets and creativity appear to be the future trend, although the sweeping Cecil B Demille sagas will always have appeal. My preference has traditionally been for foreign art films, But I could be changing as well.
I was entranced by Ang Lee's interesting take on the Western and I was pretty much blown away by Heath Ledger's performance which defied the ordinary contrived style. His expressions were uncommonly straight forward without the usual phony Hollywood affectations. His character was without guile and I loved that aspect. Jake was more wily and deceptive, but there was plenty of emotional expression in his performance too. I'm always hoping for departures from the norm, and these portrayals of sensitive men clothed in hard masculinity fit that desire. Painting leading men as losers is also a noteworthy departure. We shall see. I still believe in film as an effective agent for positive social and political change. I'll be paying attention now. Good entertainment is vital to the health of a society.
I had a strong feeling that BBM might be revisited and the news of the opera stunned me. With such a big success, I imagine others are wiggling their antennae trying to figure out the formula. The good part is that the success is deeper than financial gain. There's a hunger crying out and I suppose there's a possibility that it will be satisfied. It would be wonderful if the US could lead in a new way. Other nations are doing well with their film industries and the foreign directors I love all share the traits of singularity, confidence, and independence. A sign of the times, I hope.
Here is Ang Lee discussing the boys sexuality.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cuIW96I7ids (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cuIW96I7ids)
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... I was referring to the big rise of serial films and the rise of the powerful studio system at the turn of the century. Our ever busy entrepreneurs grabbed the patents and rose to dominance with the tide of technical achievements.
And once that juggernaut got going...
The film industry is definitely universal ...
Not only the US but just about everywhere else now, although IMDb wouldn’t really know that.
... and the top slots change when innovations come or a great new film maker influences the direction of the times.
Not sure what you meant by influencing the direction of the times, but Allen, Bergman, Bunuel, Joel and Ethan Coen, Davies, Fellini, Ford, Haynes, Hitchcock, Huston, Kubrick, Kurosawa, Lean, Lynch, Malick, Noé, Polanski, Sirk, Scott, Sokurov, Tarkovsky, von Trier, Weir, Wilder, Wong Kar-wai, just to name a few, could be described as great film directors...
Ang Lee says that he can't make his movies anywhere but Hollywood because of the technical resources. But there are some great emerging markets and with the advent of digital, things could change. There seems to be a diminishing of studio control and with the increasing power of independent film makers there is a lot to look forward to.
Which is a good thing... :)
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Not sure what you meant by influencing the direction of the times, but Allen, Bergman, Bunuel, Joel and Ethan Coen, Davies, Fellini, Ford, Haynes, Hitchcock, Huston, Kubrick, Kurosawa, Lean, Lynch, Malick, Noé, Polanski, Sirk, Scott, Sokurov, Tarkovsky, von Trier, Weir, Wilder, Wong Kar-wai, just to name a few, could be described as great film directors...
That's an excellent list. Oddly by chance tonight, I discovered an Indian director I didn't know about. His name is Rajan Khosa and he's typical of the sophisticated cosmopolitan artists from around the world who combine Western styles with their indigenous characteristics. The movie is Dance of the Wind and it's a delicate study of musicians and spirituality, just up my street.
The blend of Asian and Western was beautiful to me in BBM, especially in the beginning with the sparse instrumental music and the slight twang of the bending string. I was won over from that moment. It was irresistibly seductive. There was a lot of empty space in the opening scenes and the same gentle music creating a graceful flow and for me, a highly auspicious beginning. As sad as the ending was, it still held promise from my perspective. The story did too, in that Ennis had his dreams to look forward to. Real ones.
I've thought about how much any individual influences the times. A lot of it is determined by the writers of history. I lean toward the view that the times, themselves, determine trends and the result is a confluence of artists who pick up on the needs of society and supply the nourishment desired, sometimes creating movements that seem to alter the subsequent stream of events. Imitation comes and some are elevated to high priest status, but the artists who labor in relative obscurity influence the proceedings significantly I think.
One thing that excites me is the vast collaboration around BBM, what with the original writer and the screenwriters, the director and film crew, and now the opera. A story from the American West traveling worldwide in continual reincarnation. What a phenomenon.
Over the years I've backed away from writing in stone who's great and who's not, and who is awful because of the subjective factor. I tend to think most of us are not that great since perceptions change from moment to moment and major flaws lurk in everyone's work. I'm finally coming to a more reasonable critique of BBM, even, since I flipped too far out on the emotional level. That felt good, but I still want to be sensible. People get protective of their opinions and want so much to share the joy they feel when absorbing the work of artists they like. That pursuit has its perils. Unfortunately, some question their judgment when others don't get on board. Some ridiculous critics make a big spectacle of their dissent as if their superior taste should rule. I have to admit I'm that way about music since my hearing is so acute. If it hurts my ears, it's not great no matter how much the entire planet says otherwise. I do digress.
So back to the scenery. I loved the scene in Texas at the dance with Lureen, Jack, Lashawn, and good ol' Randall. I thought it was hilarious with smoke pouring out of the Twists and Lureen announcing that she was Kappa Phi. I enjoyed Ann Hathaway's Lureen. I thought it was a wonderful parody of a Southern belle. She seemed like she was having fun. Then there was the deep discussion between Jack and Randall about nose powdering.
I noticed where Lureen tapped Jack's arm very gently when she asked him about why husbands don't never want to dance with their wives. Of course the omnipresent cigarette was there, but I felt that they were still pals despite everything. I found it poignant.
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Thanks, Malachite, for putting into words what I feel so strongly. I've never had any sense of 'blame' towards Ennis - I just agonise with him over his pain and conflicting emotions.
Exactly, Sara. I totally agree with you and Malachite.
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Thank you. Like you I don't feel that the issues are in stark black and white, right or wrong. The characters are so complex aren't they, especially Ennis? I think to apportion blame on any side is pointless and one dimensional. For me the bigger issue is the background of homophobia which made a victim of each and every one of them. Surely that's the whole point of the story because if you take that factor away none of the tragedy would have happened? These characters remind me of insects trapped on a fly paper. Struggle as they might they're never going to get free. And maybe in order to drive home the message that's inevitable.
You're right, Malachite. In Annie Proulx's own words, the story is about rural homophobia and its destructive impact on people's lives.
IMO, nothing is black or white in this movie. There are so many aspects of the characters and their lives, it can be discussed forever (and apparently is... ;D). They are so multi-faceted, and there's so much ambiguity in the movie.
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You're right, Malachite. In Annie Proulx's own words, the story is about rural homophobia and its destructive impact on people's lives.
This. Thanks. I mention it in my post about the final shirts hanging in the closet scene (http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=2385.msg2549084#msg2549084). And you're so right. BBM's characters are intensely complex, just like real people. The acting, omG, wow. One thing that I didn't really care for was when Jack was happy about Ennis's divorce. But, it's an example of how people are complex, the things we think and feel, it can all make your head spin.
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This. Thanks. I mention it in my post about the final shirts hanging in the closet scene (http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=2385.msg2549084#msg2549084). And you're so right. BBM's characters are intensely complex, just like real people. The acting, omG, wow. One thing that I didn't really care for was when Jack was happy about Ennis's divorce. But, it's an example of how people are complex, the things we think and feel, it can all make your head spin.
Personally, I think that Jack saw Ennis' divorce from Alma as a sign that Ennis was finally ready to live his life with Jack.
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Personally, I think that Jack saw Ennis' divorce from Alma as a sign that Ennis was finally ready to live his life with Jack.
Agreed, although for what it's I don't get the vibe that Jack ever viewed Alma positively. From his body language toward her when they met at the reunion to the way he talked about her by the campfire ("You and Alma, that's a life?") it seems (to me, anyway) that he tolerated her because he had no choice, but he viewed her as an obstacle to his being with Ennis. An obstacle that was better off removed. I don't get the vibe he'd have been particularly bothered to walk out on Lureen and/or Bobby at a moment's notice if it meant he'd have gotten his wish to be with Ennis.
But I do agree that his happiness at the divorce was more about his thinking he'd finally get that cow & calf operation.
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In the short story Ennis gives two reasons why the relationship is blighted - their wives and children, and the dangers of being seen together.
"I doubt there's nothin now we can do," said Ennis. "What I'm sayin, Jack, I built a life up in them years. Love my little girls. Alma? It ain't her fault. You got your baby and wife, that place in Texas. You and me can't hardly be decent together if what happened back there" -- he jerked his head in the direction of the apartment -- "grabs on us like that. We do that in the wrong place we'll be dead."
Jack doesn't propose the cow and calf operation for another three paragraphs but when he does, Ennis relates the tale of Earl and Rich. Nonetheless, with persuasion, he agrees to keep on seeing Jack.
So when he calls after the divorce - something he had done only once before when Alma divorced him and Jack had misunderstood the reason for the call, had driven twelve hundred miles north for nothing - Jack undoubtedly figures that first hurdle is now cleared away and Ennis is ready to live with him. One'senough, I think you're right about Jack walking out on Lureen and Bobby. His post-divorce trip virtually confirms he'd be all too happy to walk out on his marriage.
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The scene where Ennis and Alma get married....apart from those two....and the Vicar....I never really took any notice of any of the other people in that scene....but watcching it a few days ago..... AGAIN.......I noticed standing next to Ennis is a young man......who resembles Ennis in color of hair ...shape of face etc.....but keeps his head down all the time. Could this be the elusive K.E. as his best man ?
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Yes, I think he is supposed to be K.E. He is in shirtsleeves, and if you look at the wedding portrait of Ennis and Alma (which was created for the film but never used) you can see that Ennis is wearing a suit jacket but with jeans, the implication being that the brothers shared a suit.
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Thanks M.A......... but where would I see this picture ?
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Here you go.
The frame is photoshopped, but the image is real. As MA said, it wasn't used in the movie
(https://ultimatebrokebackforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F1.bp.blogspot.com%2F-jWu3PiKMWmA%2FUf7hS0jbziI%2FAAAAAAAAG_U%2FlaGpvA4RkRQ%2Fs1600%2FBrokeback%2BMountain%2BEnnis%2Band%2BAlma%2Bwedding%2Bphoto.jpg&hash=50acd91b8c85ac78b098d9bf715aeb86f959f785)
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Awwwwww! Bless them K.E. and Ennis for having to shared a suit. To think this sort of thing probably
happened. :o
Thanks Chuck. :)
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New guy here who read the book then bought the dvd a couple weeks ago and is blown away by this story and excellent movie that won't leave my mind alone. I found this forum and joined but can find no search function. In FAQ it shows it but it's unresponsive for me. I've done a lot of reading here but am overwhelmed by all the thoughtful observations on all aspects of BBM.
It's probably been discussed somewhere since 2006 but I noticed on my 3rd viewing that Jack is wearing a tan hat after traveling to Ennis after the divorce message and in Mexico on the way home. I attribute this to Jack believing a big change is coming in their relationshp and the tan hat represents that a good life, a sweet life is on the horizon.
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Hello Twister1! Welcome to the Ultimate Brokeback Mountain Forum!
My name is Chuck (USA/ New Jersey) and I'm one of the moderators who helps run the place.
It's always great to see new members find us and join up!
I'm going to supply you with a few links that you may find helpful. You may have already been in a few threads in these sections, but you may find some new topics you want to post in. If you see that a topic is "old", please don't feel that you shouldn't post. You never know what conversation would be started because you posted.
The Film & Book (http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php?board=1.0)
In this section you can find threads to compare the movie to the short story (Film Vs. Book), your favorite quote from the movie or book, and general discussion of Brokeback.
The Impact on Society & Ourselves (http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php?board=3.0[/url)
In this section you can find threads about reactions of the audience, how the movie affected you, and other topics.
Scene-By-Scene (http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php?board=34.0)
Here you will find threads that talk about various scenes from the movie.
Elements & Themes (http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php?board=61.0)
This is where you'll find threads that talk about Jack, Ennis, their relationship, the women of Brokeback, and other elements.
There are other sections as well where you'll find chat threads (The Diner, Le Bar Slash) fan fiction discussion, TV, movies, music, and countless other threads.
Have fun exploring!
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Thanks for the welcome Chuck. I'm Bill from MI. I've been around the site a bit and want to read everything but...that's gonna take a while.
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Welcome, Bill! (Sara from England)
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Hi Bill, welcome to the forum!
Glad you found us, you're among friends here.
I hope you don't just explore, but also post in some of the threads.
It doesn't matter if a subject has already been discussed, there's always room for another aspect.
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Thanks for the welcome Chuck. I'm Bill from MI. I've been around the site a bit and want to read everything but...that's gonna take a while.
Welcome, Bill in MI from another Brit.
You'll be amazed how making a comment here and there will bring all sorts outa the woodwork. ;)
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Hi Bill! (Sonja from The Netherlands) :)
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Hi Bill!
I'm from USA/North Carolina but love love love Michigan. I spent many summers there and a lot of my dad's family still lives there.
Welcome aboard! This is a nice bunch of people. I came late to the game...joined sometime last year but everyone here is great. :) Stick around!
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I'm sure this scene has been discussed here, but I don't know when...the 4th of July scene with the bikers and fireworks.
Did Ennis threaten the bikers to prove his manhood to Alma and himself? And this was the first time she had seen this side of him, she'd never seen him violent before?
Just trying to get others' ideas on what they were thinking...
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Great question. That scene I'm guessing is much more complex than just showing Ennis's insecurities. ??
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"Probably stopped givin it to her when the kids was born." Pretty provocative statement to anyone, and in cowboy country, I'd say "them's fightin words." But for Ennis--they're lookin at him like they know. So yeah, he's got to prove his manhood. From her reaction, I'd say it's the first time Alma has seen this side of him, but she already knows, from the flipping scene, that he's not all sweetness and light. He'll make her do something she hates. But importantly, she has yet to be disillusioned, so she reacts with shock and fear. Later, that confrontation wouldn't have moved her that much.
Ironic, ain't it, that the cause of the scene, Ennis objecting to their language, is overshadowed when he yells "you want to lose about half your fuckin teeth?"
Can I mention (again) my biggest pet peeve about Brokeback? That the fat, gray bikers are a HUGE anachronism? In the late 60s, they'd be about Ennis' age, maybe up to 10 years older. The biker era was the late 50s, early 60s. They'd be mid 30s, tops. But Ennis wouldn't have had it so easy, given that there were 3 of them, if they'd been young men. They'd have kicked his ass.
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It does appear to take that particular line to set him off, when he's kept his cool up to that point. So he is being outed to an extent in his mind only-at that point, Alma's knowledge of him and Jack is something she
buried away after the kiss on the landing. Clearly, Ennis has probably assumed it was not fully realized by her, despite the fact that 'she saw what she saw'.
This is another example of where the writers of the screenplay claimed that every bit of the SS found it's way into the movie, in one form or another.
As to the selection of the bikers, they are really just modern-day cowboys, with their modern horses/hogs, aren't they? ; I think in the backdrop of the fireworks, it's another bit of filmmaker metaphor, where up to that time in history, homophobia still "won", ie, victory fireworks, after Ennis knocks them on their respective arses.
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It does appear to take that particular line to set him off, when he's kept his cool up to that point. So he is being outed to an extent in his mind only-at that point, Alma's knowledge of him and Jack is something she
buried away after the kiss on the landing. Clearly, Ennis has probably assumed it was not fully realized by her, despite the fact that 'she saw what she saw'.
This is another example of where the writers of the screenplay claimed that every bit of the SS found it's way into the movie, in one form or another.
As to the selection of the bikers, they are really just modern-day cowboys, with their modern horses/hogs, aren't they? ; I think in the backdrop of the fireworks, it's another bit of filmmaker metaphor, where up to that time in history, homophobia still "won", ie, victory fireworks, after Ennis knocks them on their respective arses.
It looks like you're saying this scene is after the Reunion, when it's actually before…
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It looks like you're saying this scene is after the Reunion, when it's actually before…
oops my mistake! ok, so if I remove that point....I think it still stands. Ennis would not want to be outed in any way...but this makes the impact even worse on Alma, as she has no real reason to guess what's underneath his violent aggression-yet.
One other thing: There is a bit of a bookend with the SS here: in the SS, Ennis grabs Alma's wrist so hard he leaves a burn; and tells her he'll make her eat the floor (with Bill) after she outs him in the kitchen. It's an example of where the writers said they used everything in the SS for the movie. Its like his denial has come full circle-Alma was the first construct, and now she no longer is part of that; she is like the only one not part of the construct of denial, by that point. Even Jack is to an extent-but Jack never calls Ennis what he is-homosexual. ('I'm not like you....I can't make it, etc.'-Last Scene) But Alma kind of does.
The scene is also just another example of how Ennis has the classic male reaction to a threat to his masculinity-"let's go kick some ass."
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"Probably stopped givin it to her when the kids was born." Pretty provocative statement to anyone, and in cowboy country, I'd say "them's fightin words." But for Ennis--they're lookin at him like they know. So yeah, he's got to prove his manhood. From her reaction, I'd say it's the first time Alma has seen this side of him, but she already knows, from the flipping scene, that he's not all sweetness and light. He'll make her do something she hates. But importantly, she has yet to be disillusioned, so she reacts with shock and fear. Later, that confrontation wouldn't have moved her that much.
Ironic, ain't it, that the cause of the scene, Ennis objecting to their language, is overshadowed when he yells "you want to lose about half your fuckin teeth?"
Can I mention (again) my biggest pet peeve about Brokeback? That the fat, gray bikers are a HUGE anachronism? In the late 60s, they'd be about Ennis' age, maybe up to 10 years older. The biker era was the late 50s, early 60s. They'd be mid 30s, tops. But Ennis wouldn't have had it so easy, given that there were 3 of them, if they'd been young men. They'd have kicked his ass.
That last bit first - I watched the scene and then read the script. Oddly enough, they are described as being about Ennis's age but one (the longhaired one in the film) is described as having a club foot, thus putting him at a slight disadvantage when confronted by a fast-moving chap like Ennis. I'm not sure that's obvious in the film, although he comes across as a bit the worse for wear, and they certainly aren't the same age as Ennis. But them being older is okay historically. If they'd returned from WW2 in their early twenties (and the huge movement with bikie gangs began as a response to the end of the war, according to accepted lore) and the scene is set in 1966 as the event announcer says, then they could be around mid-forties. I note that the fitter of the two, the one with the bandana, is taken by surprise by Ennis, who simply kicks him full in the face while seeming to address the other one who has stood up. Neat trick.
If I recall correctly, after the Thanksgiving scene when Ennis steps in front of the truck, the driver calls him an asshole, and the bikies do too. Maybe just coincidence but maybe not. Apart from daring to drive while Ennis is in a foul mood and stomping in his path, the driver doesn't do anything untoward except yell at him to mind where he's going, or whatever, and call him an asshole. Sensitive area for Ennis, perhaps. ;)
There's definitely a direct connection between the line about not giving it to his old lady any more now the kids have arrived, and Ennis's response. He knows why it is he's stopped having vaginal sex with his wife, even if she doesn't, and the bikies are just implying he's a sexual dud rather than that he's queer - typical "can't get it up" insult. So I see it as Ennis having to stop the truth coming his way, just as he attacks and threatens Alma when she starts to stray onto dangerous territory, and how he thumps Jack when he gets too up close and personal. Once the knowledge he denies starts getting too clear in his mind he has to react violently against it.
I recall someone mentioning eons ago that 4th July would have been the 3rd anniversary of FNIT. Something to do with full moons in June or somesuch. They argued that Ang Lee might have had such an idea in mind.
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There's a few posts about the scene beginning HERE, (http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=1054.msg1398196#msg1398196) where, surprise surprise, I mention the moon as well as how I read the scene. I don't think my views have changed much in eight years.
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It's a while since I've watched the film, so this is from memory (and I can't remember the exact words in this scene), and I'm probably mixing up the book and the film a bit, so apologies! It did seem that the bikers pushed just the right/wrong button - sex with Alma is how Ennis manages to tell himself that he's not queer. The children are supposed to be living proof of his straightness. The bikers have actually hit the nail on the head - with two kids as proof, Ennis doesn't need to make so much effort to keep up the facade, and the implied frequent sex after the marriage (he got her pregnant quickly) is now the occasional kind that doesn't make babies. (And although Ennis is in denial, surely he must know that this is the same act as with Jack? By this time, he's been sitting and thinking and convinced himself that he's definitely straight and it's OK to think about Jack sexually ... he must know why he only wants anal sex with Alma?).
Alma looks shocked, if I remember, so I imagine this isn't the way she would expect Ennis to act. It's this specific attack on his manhood/sexuality that provokes this reaction. He might be trying to prove his manhood to himself and Alma, but he kind of ends up proving that it's an issue for him.
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The full moon for July 1963 was actually July 6th. But, it's pretty close. Surely the thought crosses Ennis' mind at some point as he sees the moon waxing to full in the July sky.
I have tried to see something symbolic in the holiday re:Ennis, but the best I can come up with is that it's one of the big FAMILY holidays, but Ennis' secret truth isolates him from the family, and never more than here--and Thanksgiving. He can never really fit in with other people who are not persecuted for being who they are, especially being in denial, not ready with a smooth lie, and always afraid something is going to come to light. In this way the two holidays are alike: in the first, Ennis just overreacts to what is after all a pretty inflammatory comment that he was meant to hear. In the second, perhaps to show how the secret-keeping is wearing on him, or the secrecy deteriorating, or both, he is actually accused by the only other person who knows for sure.
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From SS.
Why was it made out to be such a big thing by Jack's father that Jack was "cut"...
(circumcised) ..or was it just something else for him to despise Jack for ?Jack made a point of mentioning it himself too.
Was it so rare back then for boys to have it done to them ? Did it make them less of a man or something?
Sorry if this has been talked about before.
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We've mulled over this scene before but that's no reason not to do it again ;)
I don't know that Jack's father made much of it - after all, he presumably had some say in whether or not Jack was circumcised - but it was clearly something which had an effect on Jack. His relating of it is in very negative terms. "But while he was hosin me down I seen he had some extra material that I was missin. I seen they'd cut me different like you'd crop a ear or scorch a brand. No way to get it right with him after that." So he's missing something which his father has, he's different to his father, he's marked like a piece of stock, and he'll never get it right with his father.
This scene explains to me why Jack is always so compliant, so willing to give in to Ennis's rules, and so ready to come back year after year, even when the promise of "that distant summer" is nearly faded away. I have always assumed that Ennis is uncut and that he, in some way, is a replacement for Jack's dad, the alpha male who Jack tries to make it right with. On the mountain, Jack and Ennis's relationship really takes off after the evening when Ennis comes in and washes himself in front of Jack's observant eyes. I suspect that Jack's (presumably) first glimpse of Ennis in his glory might have helped things along.
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bumped to make the thread current, for a possible post on a specific scene.
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Moving Sue's question here, thank you Chuck!
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Question " Do you think that when Jack told Ennis ..he was going "..up to Lightning
Flats to help his Daddy out"...that he was secretly hoping Ennis would have second thoughts about marrying Alma... and knowing where he was.... would go up there looking for him ?? "
Sorry if OT...but didn't know where else to ask !
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Yes, I do really think so too. And that he wanted Ennis not to forget the name of the place. Still so hopeful, poor sweet Jack.
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^^^
Oh ! I thought this thread had been closed down.
Sorry...my bad ! :">
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^^^
Oh ! I thought this thread had been closed down.
Sorry...my bad ! :">
Oh, no "my bad", you were right. It was closed. I re-opened it so that it could be posted.
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Question " Do you think that when Jack told Ennis ..he was going "..up to Lightning
Flats to help his Daddy out"...that he was secretly hoping Ennis would have second thoughts about marrying Alma... and knowing where he was.... would go up there looking for him ?? "
Yes, I do really think so too. And that he wanted Ennis not to forget the name of the place. Still so hopeful, poor sweet Jack.
I have to be honest, I've never thought of that possibility before, but I can see Jack doing this. While I'm not sure (I can't remember exactly) I believe in the short story it's suggested that Jack had prior experiences with men. If we carry that theme to the movie, it's possible Jack wouldn't think this was a 'one time thing' and would want to drop his location to Ennis, in the hopes that he would follow up with it.
At the very least, it suggests he wants to see Ennis again. You generally don't give your whereabouts to someone you don't want to run into again.
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Yes, I think Jack had that hope in mind when he told Ennis about his plans for the winter.
Whatever happened, at least Ennis would know where to find him.
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Yes, I think Jack had that hope in mind when he told Ennis about his plans for the winter.
Whatever happened, at least Ennis would know where to find him.
Yeah, but in the end, it didn't work, did it? Jack still ended up having to track him down.
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If it had worked, it would have been a completely different story *sigh*
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If it had worked, it would have been a completely different story *sigh*
Very true, and who knows, maybe it wouldn't have grabbed us the way that it did.
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Yep. There were a couple of fics playing with this idea, weren't they? That Ennis did come to Jack's.
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Hello everyone, yes I am late to the game (like 14 yrs late) but better that than never. Not kidding, my first viewing of BBM was 2 weeks ago on Amazon, and yes, I was absolutely blown away and shocked how great a movie (yes an epic) it was which then got me to read the SS and it was, in its own right, absolutely great (but ultimately much darker than the movie with regards to E's life post J).
Maybe someone can provide answers (or their interpretation) to a few questions that I have, in particular, the last meeting between E and J where it seems that J is about to end the relationship after 17 years? I found Jack's position a bit off kilter in that E gave him good reasons why August was not going to work. I can see how J was totally frustrated and maybe this was the last straw? I understand these are fictional characters, but wouldn't anyone in J's position understand that E's excuses are about to come to an end (E is divorced, his daughters are rapidly approaching 18 and no more child support) and give it another 6 months or a year.
Again, this is total conjecture, do you think if J had lived he would have met E at Pine Creek on November 7 per E's post card (interesting that up until this point it was J sending post cards) or would J have ghosted him like E ghosted Cassie? Hard for me to believe that J, frustrated as he was, could just up and leave and not give E a chance once all his excuses are gone.
All I can say is that I had had the opportunity to watch the film in its initial release with a theater full of people and their different reactions.
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Hi Jack, welcome! I joined in 2008 and I'm pretty sure I took 2 days off work just to read the threads, I was beyond obsessed.
Your question is interesting and I'm sure you'll hear lots of different viewpoints. Jack had things going on...was he having an affair with Randall?...if so, that may have given him some strength to miss the meet-up with Ennis.
As for Ennis's excuses coming to an end, Jack thought he had won when he heard about Ennis's divorce...he really couldn't see any reason for them not to get together after that, but Ennis sure set him straight (so to speak).
I like to think that they would have met up at Pine Creek...that maybe something in Ennis would have changed (not likely)...but I think Jack had faced up to the fact that they were getting nowhere, and he couldn't take the pain of it any more...but it only happened when he had someone else to fall back on, Randall.
Have fun reading all the threads
Nancy - morrobay
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Hello colorado_jack! Welcome to the Ultimate Brokeback Mountain Forum!
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The Film & Book (http://ultimatebrokebackforum.com/index.php?board=1.0)
In this section you can find threads to compare the movie to the short story (Film Vs. Book), your favorite quote from the movie or book, and general discussion of Brokeback.
The Impact on Society & Ourselves (http://ultimatebrokebackforum.com/index.php?board=3.0[/url)
In this section you can find threads about reactions of the audience, how the movie affected you, and other topics.
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Here you will find threads that talk about various scenes from the movie.
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This is where you'll find threads that talk about Jack, Ennis, their relationship, the women of Brokeback, and other elements.
There are other sections as well where you'll find chat threads (The Diner, Le Bar Slash) fan fiction discussion, TV, movies, music, and countless other threads.
Have fun exploring!
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Maybe you all can help me with the timing of the story, especially with regards to the last meeting between E and J. The timeline I can gather goes something like this:
Summer 1963 start of relationship between E/J on BBM
November/December 1963 E marries A(Alma)
Sept/October 1964 Alma Jr (AJ) is born
Sometime in mid-late 1965 Jenny is born
July 4, 1966 (3 anniversary of FNIT) and fight at 4th of July picnic
Jack/Lureen marry 1966?
Bobby born January 1967
E/J reunion Sept 1967(Bobby is 8 months old)
August 1972 A intercepts postcard from J about going fishing, so this has been going on for 5 years and A does/says nothing during this time
November 1975 A and J divorce and J proposal rejected by E immediately thereafter
November 1977 Thanksgiving
1978 J meets R(Randall)
Here's where it gets a bit murky, the divorce decree stated E would pay child support until the girls reached 18 which would be Sept/Oct 1982 for AJ and sometime in 1983 for Jenny.
J states that they have been meeting like this for almost 20 years which makes me think the last meeting occurred in 1982 or maybe spring 1983. In any case, the timing seems off, if the meeting occurred in 1983 then all J had to do was wait 6 months for AJ to emancipate and a bit longer for Jenny to do the same, so not sure why after 17 years all of a sudden J gets pissy when all he had to do was wait a bit longer and then E would essentially be free of financial obligations and THEN if E balks, J can leave with a clear conscience.
Yes I KNOW its just a movie, but obsession knows no bounds.
PS I do not for one minute think J and R had any sort of emotional bond, if anything, it was J getting needed relief when not with E. No way R would up and leave LaS (mouth notwithstanding) and a good job for living in some cabin working on someone else's broken down ranch for nothing. Papa Twist was right, it was just a pipe dream Jack came up with to deflect the fact that all that was said about E never amounted to anything and last thing J wanted was to look like a loser in front of Dad
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Hi and welcome! I'm a late arrival too, only joined the Forum in 2017 even if I watched the movie back when it was released, but it didn't blow my mind until I watched it again many years later. So I missed all the initial discussions, sigh.
I think Jack gave up all hope way before the last fight, he realised it was pointless when Ennis divorced and still refused even to see Jack in a more regular way. Like Morrobay said, he had no more excuses, living alone in the middle of nothing they could have met at his place, even if he couldn't get free time from work. At the time of their last trip Jack had spent 15 years hoping and at that point he probably had realised that Ennis would never meet him half ways, there is only so much pain and disappointment a person can deal with and Jack had reached his limit. Ennis cancelling August was just the proverbial last straw and Jack didn't give a *** about Randall, the girls turning 18 or Lureen's money, he just exploded. And I am sure that if Ennis had said yes at any point he would have dropped everything to be with him.
To stop rambling and come to the point, I doubt Jack would be so calculating with the girls' ages, and I don't think he was being "pissy" and it wasn't "all of a sudden". He was furious and heartbroken and then Ennis accuses him of being the one to blame for his miserable life. If that wasn't a cue for Jack to try to move on I don't know what.
And even so, I believe he would have met Ennis in November.
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Hi and welcome! I'm a late arrival too, only joined the Forum in 2017 even if I watched the movie back when it was released, but it didn't blow my mind until I watched it again many years later. So I missed all the initial discussions, sigh.
I think Jack gave up all hope way before the last fight, he realised it was pointless when Ennis divorced and still refused even to see Jack in a more regular way. Like Morrobay said, he had no more excuses, living alone in the middle of nothing they could have met at his place, even if he couldn't get free time from work. At the time of their last trip Jack had spent 15 years hoping and at that point he probably had realised that Ennis would never meet him half ways, there is only so much pain and disappointment a person can deal with and Jack had reached his limit. Ennis cancelling August was just the proverbial last straw and Jack didn't give a *** about Randall, the girls turning 18 or Lureen's money, he just exploded. And I am sure that if Ennis had said yes at any point he would have dropped everything to be with him.
To stop rambling and come to the point, I doubt Jack would be so calculating with the girls' ages, and I don't think he was being "pissy" and it wasn't "all of a sudden". He was furious and heartbroken and then Ennis accuses him of being the one to blame for his miserable life. If that wasn't a cue for Jack to try to move on I don't know what.
And even so, I believe he would have met Ennis in November.
"He was furious and heartbroken and then Ennis accuses him of being the one to blame for his miserable life. If that wasn't a cue for Jack to try to move on I don't know what." Point well taken. I would be furious too if someone I had been in love with for over 17 years and I had made sacrifices for turned around and blamed ME for the decisions they made, especially after I (ie J) gave them choices they refused to take, mostly from fear. Interesting question for another day, how would E's life be different without having met J? Which is better, not having met J and living a life of quiet desperation (maybe without even realizing it) with A or meeting your soulmate but forced by convention and fear to keep it hidden and at arm's length (with all the associated baggage).
I also agree that regardless of words spoken during the argument (nothing really changed) that J would have met E at Pine Creek and would have been happy to stay on that short leash. J and E were too intertwined to so easily be pulled apart.
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Just to add my welcome, colorado_jack. :)
Sara from England
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Hello colorado_jack,
I felt your posts would work well in the thread "Ennis & Jack's relationship", so I quoted your post, and pasted it there. I've also put my own reply up to it.
Please feel free to read and respond there!
http://ultimatebrokebackforum.com/index.php?topic=28390.msg2803426#msg2803426
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I have been trying to read through as many posts as possible without sacrificing too much of my free time, that's hard. The problem I have is that once I read posts I wind up re-watching BBM with a new set of eyes. Not sure if this point has already been made, but now I think I understand Alma Jr's response to Cassie's questions about the prospects of E settling down again. AJs responses indicate to me that AJ understood her dad's relationship with JT at least with regards to their attachment to each other. For example, AJ responses: 1) "he's not the marrying kind" which is an old time euphemism for homosexual, and since Cassie didn't pick up on that, AJ told Cassie, "you're good enough" which I understand now to mean that she (Cassie) is a woman (actually any woman would do) which is good enough to provide E with a plausible claim to being straight. My guess is that through Alma, AJ knows that JT is more than just a fishing buddy.
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Just another observation that as yet I have not seen in any of the posts. I noticed that E uses his thumb to express emotions akin to affection, happiness, etc. There are a number of scenes where he uses one or both of this thumbs to express his affection (or even how much affection he is feeling).
1). Wedding scene, he strokes Alma's cheek with his right thumb while kissing her.
2). Jack's first postcard, he uses two thumbs to rub the card (he's really happy).
3). E rubs Jenny's ear with his thumb while reciting his bronco story ("angel's wings").
4). E rubs Jack's coat with his thumb during the DE.
5). While holding Jack's shirt, he rubs it with his thumb in addition to bringing it up to his nose
6). During the last scene, he rubs the postcard with his right thumb as he is straightening it.
I also noticed that he never expressed anything like that with Cassie (since he was smoking while dancing with her, that would be difficult I guess) which makes me think he had no real interest in her. The only time E's thumbe was used to rub Cassie was when she forced him to give her a foot massage, not exactly a spontaneous expression of affection.
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^^^
Stroking the cheek of the one he is kissing is a "Heath thing"....not an
Ennis thing. Have seen him kiss girlfriends...Michelle... and other female
actors he has appeared with .....he holds their face gently and strokes their
cheek with his thumb. Lovely.
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Just another observation that as yet I have not seen in any of the posts. I noticed that E uses his thumb to express emotions akin to affection, happiness, etc. There are a number of scenes where he uses one or both of this thumbs to express his affection (or even how much affection he is feeling).
1). Wedding scene, he strokes Alma's cheek with his right thumb while kissing her.
2). Jack's first postcard, he uses two thumbs to rub the card (he's really happy).
3). E rubs Jenny's ear with his thumb while reciting his bronco story ("angel's wings").
4). E rubs Jack's coat with his thumb during the DE.
5). While holding Jack's shirt, he rubs it with his thumb in addition to bringing it up to his nose
6). During the last scene, he rubs the postcard with his right thumb as he is straightening it.
I also noticed that he never expressed anything like that with Cassie (since he was smoking while dancing with her, that would be difficult I guess) which makes me think he had no real interest in her. The only time E's thumbe was used to rub Cassie was when she forced him to give her a foot massage, not exactly a spontaneous expression of affection.
I think that BlueAmber63 (Sue) is right, that is more of a Heath thing. I've done that type of thing myself. Heath did it because he was supposed to show affection, so he did.
I'm assuming it was Heath's decision to not exhibit the same affection with the character of Cassie. After all, Ennis loved Alma, loved his daughters, and loved Jack. Cassie was a means to an end. If he was with a woman, no one would be able to accuse him of being gay. Or, perhaps it would protect him, in case Alma decided to tell people about what she saw.
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I have been trying to read through as many posts as possible without sacrificing too much of my free time, that's hard. The problem I have is that once I read posts I wind up re-watching BBM with a new set of eyes. Not sure if this point has already been made, but now I think I understand Alma Jr's response to Cassie's questions about the prospects of E settling down again. AJs responses indicate to me that AJ understood her dad's relationship with JT at least with regards to their attachment to each other. For example, AJ responses: 1) "he's not the marrying kind" which is an old time euphemism for homosexual, and since Cassie didn't pick up on that, AJ told Cassie, "you're good enough" which I understand now to mean that she (Cassie) is a woman (actually any woman would do) which is good enough to provide E with a plausible claim to being straight. My guess is that through Alma, AJ knows that JT is more than just a fishing buddy.
There had been discussion in the past about whether or not Junior knew or had suspicions about Ennis. I don't believe that Alma would tell Junior about this aspect of her father. After all, at that time, there were no protections for gay people at that time. Alma may have remarried and had her own job, but Ennis was still required to pay child support. She would lose that if he lost his job, and was unable to get another, which would happen if it got out that Ennis was gay.
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Not really sure if this observation has been made or where it belongs, but the more attuned I become to the various hints, nuances, etc. the more I seem to find. Not sure if this is totally out there but it all seems to hang together.
I always wondered why did Lureen marry Jack since she was 1) college grad, 2) had rich daddy, 3) no lack of interest from other men (ie bar scene where she is constantly being approached while waiting for Jack to do something) and 4) easy on the eye.
Also, why did LD Newsume hate Jack so much and the issue of Bobby's difficulty in school was mentioned at least a couple of times so there must be a reason.
Paying close attention to the chronology presented in the movie:
1) Jack and Lureen met at Childress County Rodeo in August 1966.
2) Jack and Ennis had reunion in October 1967 where Jack mentioned his boy was 8 months old (again no throw aways in the movie so the fact that Jack specifically stated 8 months means something)
3) Bobby was born sometime around February 1967 (Feb + 8 months = Oct)
What I can piece together based upon the few above facts:
1) Bobby was conceived in the back seat of LD's car that hot August nite (no evidence of protection, too little time to get any since Lureen had to have car back by midnite)
2) Bobby was born 2 months premature (August +7 months = February + 8 months = October), helps to explain learning disability, 2 months premature in 1967 is a big deal
3) LD hated Jack getting his darling Lureen pregnant (lets face it, Jack is a loser in LDs eyes, Jack only made $2000 the year he met Lureen and she, on the other hand, is such a great catch she could have the pick of anyone in Childress County and beyond, a lot of other people must have had the same impression of Jack as he was referred to a "pissant" by two locals)
4) Lureen didn't appear to be much of a doting mom, Jack was the one who took the time to call his teachers about his problems in school...unplanned for and unwanted pregnancy and shot gun marriage might make anyone less devoted to their child.
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I always thought the reason they got married was simply that she was pregnant. And I honestly don't think that they gave the chronology so much though as you do! :laugh: Specially because baby Bobby doesn't look like a preemie at all. I think he's just dyslexic, it's a way to show that Jack cares about Bobby, even if he would leave him to be with Ennis.
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There has been some discussion regarding Lureen and the possibility that she was pregnant when she married Jack.
It would make sense. Jack was everything that Lureen was not, and I can't see LD wanting Lureen to marry someone like him.
For Jack, getting married would stop the rumors about him. You can see the way Jimbo reacts to Jack in the bar, and he obviously is talking about it to the guys at the pool table, so Jack getting married would put a stop to that talk.
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There has been some discussion regarding Lureen and the possibility that she was pregnant when she married Jack.
It would make sense. Jack was everything that Lureen was not, and I can't see LD wanting Lureen to marry someone like him.
For Jack, getting married would stop the rumors about him. You can see the way Jimbo reacts to Jack in the bar, and he obviously is talking about it to the guys at the pool table, so Jack getting married would put a stop to that talk.
That and the fact that Daddy is loaded....cynical yes but not unexpected in Jack's eyes, as he did rather well due to his marriage, new truck every few years, nice clothes, able to travel at a minutes notice (or a divorce notice), seems like JT had a great deal going as Lureen really didn't seem to care much one way or the other, she got her jollies making hard deals and didnt seem to care JT went fishing every few months (except maybe at the end when she realized BBM was not a fantasy).
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That and the fact that Daddy is loaded....cynical yes but not unexpected in Jack's eyes, as he did rather well due to his marriage, new truck every few years, nice clothes, able to travel at a minutes notice (or a divorce notice), seems like JT had a great deal going as Lureen really didn't seem to care much one way or the other, she got her jollies making hard deals and didnt seem to care JT went fishing every few months (except maybe at the end when she realized BBM was not a fantasy).
Very true. Even when they were talking about getting the tutor for Bobby (the 'where is my blue parka' scene) Lureen barely looked up from her calculator.
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I was reading archived posts for the Cassie/Ennis "relationship" and its meaning in the context of the movie as a whole. Having the advantage of reading many hundreds of posts, and the advantage of repeat viewings on Amazon, I noticed something that did not appear to be mentioned. With Ang Lee, I have come to the conclusion that everything (or most everything) has an alternate meaning to that presented in the movie. In particular, the general consensus is that the Ennis is not really involved with Cassie since his heart belongs to Jack. I think this is brought out in the scene where Ennis, Cassie, and Alma Jr are sitting in the bar, and Cassie drags Ennis to the dance floor (cigarette in hand), I noticed that there is a vague reflection of Ennis on the wall as he walks with Cassie (only Ennis, no reflection of Cassie). After thinking about it for awhile, in this case, a reflection is more than just a reflection. I think that the vague reflection of Ennis on the wall represents his lack of commitment to Cassie (just a shadow, actually) as the "real" Ennis is with Jack, and always will be.
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Yeah, but in the end, it didn't work, did it? Jack still ended up having to track him down.
Yes, because Ennis is Ennis.
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Welcome Jack!
You make some very interesting points.
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Hello!
I'm new here, this is just my second post, and to be honest I'm still not sure about how this works! I wanted to add a new post not to interrupt you, but I've found out that this is not possible, so I'm writing here hoping it is the right place...
I have a big doubt related with the CAMPSITES. The thing is, I've seen the movie hundreds of times and always thought there was just one campsite. But now, reading messages of people who have visited the movie locations, they mention CAMPSITE 1 and CAMPSITE 2. Where they two different locations just for shooting reasons? or were there actually 2 different campsites, meaning they moved to a different place in the movie? I think in the short story, moving to another camp happens once, but I've never noticed that while watching the movie. Always convinced it all happens in the same place when Jack and Ennis are together.
Thank you so much, I'd really appreciate your help!
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Hello haizea!
I'm one of the moderators here on the forum. If you have any questions about where to post something, you can feel free to send me a PM to ask them, and I'll help you the best that I can. However, you do have to have 5 posts on the forum before you can send a message.
Regarding Campsite 1 and Campsite 2, here is what I can tell you.
Campsite #1 is located at Hwy 66, Canyon Creek. Some of the scenes shot there are where Jack is carrying two buckets of water from a creek, where Jack tells Ennis "no more beans", the first real conversation that Jack and Ennis have (Jack talks about being in the rodeo, Ennis says "rodeo cowboys are fuck-ups".
Campsite #2 is located at Hwy 742, Goat Creek. Some of the scenes shot there are the harmonica scene, the morning after "first night in tent".
I got this information from a website called "Finding Brokeback", where they list the instructions to all the location sites.
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Thanks for your help! I appreciate it.
I read what you say in some locations sites, however my doubt is whether there are 2 places for shooting reasons or because they were supposed to be in two different campistes in the movie.
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Thanks for your help! I appreciate it.
I read what you say in some locations sites, however my doubt is whether there are 2 places for shooting reasons or because they were supposed to be in two different campistes in the movie.
Oh, ok, I understand your meaning now.
From what I understood, they moved the herd of sheep around the mountain, so I would assume they were in different sites in the movie.
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Thanks again ;)
It just amazes me that I've never noticed them being in different places. For me it was always the same campsite. Anyway, good to know there are 2 places to visit if I can go to Alberta next year. Thank you!
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Welcome, Judit!
I always found it fascinating that the campsite that was portrayed as the more remote one in the movie turns out to be the more accessible one compared to the first one.
I shot some vids on a trip to Alberta in 2007, there are links to YouTube as well as the scenes referred to in the movie.
http://ultimatebrokebackforum.com/index.php?topic=22685.msg1005912#msg1005912
Naturally there are several changes since then, the pole bridge has collapsed and the Bus Station Cafe has closed.
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Hi Fritz!
Thanks for your reply. I watched almost all your videos a few weeks ago, I must say they were an inspiration to start planning a trip to Alberta, so I appreciate them. I wanted to go this summer but the air fares are too high, so I'm definitely doing it in 2020.
Shame though that the bridge has collapsed, oh nooo, is there any remains? or is it completely gone? I also doubt I can visit the Twist Ranch based on your videos...Oh well, I hope I can still find something as it was...
About the campsites, I guess you mean the one of the pup tent compared to the main one, right? Funny to think that the pup tent one is not as far as it seems!. I'll have to watch the movie again and see if I can differentiate the two main campsites (not the pup tent one), as they were filmed in 2 different locations.
Thanks again and speak soon!
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Hi Fritz!
Thanks for your reply. I watched almost all your videos a few weeks ago, I must say they were an inspiration to start planning a trip to Alberta, so I appreciate them. I wanted to go this summer but the air fares are too high, so I'm definitely doing it in 2020.
Shame though that the bridge has collapsed, oh nooo, is there any remains? or is it completely gone? I also doubt I can visit the Twist Ranch based on your videos...Oh well, I hope I can still find something as it was...
About the campsites, I guess you mean the one of the pup tent compared to the main one, right? Funny to think that the pup tent one is not as far as it seems!. I'll have to watch the movie again and see if I can differentiate the two main campsites (not the pup tent one), as they were filmed in 2 different locations.
Thanks again and speak soon!
The pole bridge is completely gone, I'm afraid. But it's still a very beautiful and serene place to visit. (campsite 2) There's a little cairn where the camp fire was (dozy embrace), at least it was still there two years ago.
The fight hill is also in the same place.
The site where they talked about the sweet life is unfortunately completely gone, due to a flood of the river in 2017. Nothing remains :(
I put a link to FindingBrokeback for you in the other thread.
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Hi Fritz!
Thanks for your reply. I watched almost all your videos a few weeks ago, I must say they were an inspiration to start planning a trip to Alberta, so I appreciate them. I wanted to go this summer but the air fares are too high, so I'm definitely doing it in 2020.
Shame though that the bridge has collapsed, oh nooo, is there any remains? or is it completely gone? I also doubt I can visit the Twist Ranch based on your videos...Oh well, I hope I can still find something as it was...
About the campsites, I guess you mean the one of the pup tent compared to the main one, right? Funny to think that the pup tent one is not as far as it seems!. I'll have to watch the movie again and see if I can differentiate the two main campsites (not the pup tent one), as they were filmed in 2 different locations.
Thanks again and speak soon!
Hey Judit! I think they had two main camps and the pup tent. As the Summer goes they move the sheep. The first camp is the one they build at arrival and the second one is when Ennis complains about the tent not being right.
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Thanks Elena!! So this is why Ennis says that about the tent, it makes sense, of course! Next time I see the movie I'll pay more attention to the campsite locations, now that I know there are definitely two. It's funny how we can still learn new things after so many viewings :)
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Hi Fritz!
Thanks for your reply. I watched almost all your videos a few weeks ago, I must say they were an inspiration to start planning a trip to Alberta, so I appreciate them. I wanted to go this summer but the air fares are too high, so I'm definitely doing it in 2020.
Shame though that the bridge has collapsed, oh nooo, is there any remains? or is it completely gone? I also doubt I can visit the Twist Ranch based on your videos...Oh well, I hope I can still find something as it was...
About the campsites, I guess you mean the one of the pup tent compared to the main one, right? Funny to think that the pup tent one is not as far as it seems!. I'll have to watch the movie again and see if I can differentiate the two main campsites (not the pup tent one), as they were filmed in 2 different locations.
Thanks again and speak soon!
It is sad to think that some of the locations where "Brokeback Mountain" was filmed are no longer there. It is too bad they didn't try to preserve them more.
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Hiya UBF members.
While searching around Google, I found a site that poses 8 questions. The site seems to be geared toward the short story, but I see no reason that they can't be applied to the movie as well.
I'll post one question at a time, to keep the posts focused on it.
When I post the 8th question, I'll post the link to the website, and edit the prior posts to add the site link to give it the proper credit.
Not sure if these topics have been discussed before. Perhaps these will be new topics.
I'm placing this question here, as it pertains to the trailer scene between Jack and Aguirre.
3. How important is it that Joe Aguirre confronts Jack about their homosexuality instead of Ennis? How would Ennis have reacted if it did?
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3. How important is it that Joe Aguirre confronts Jack about their homosexuality instead of Ennis? How would Ennis have reacted if it did?
It was extremely important that it was Jack that Aguirre confronted, and not Ennis.
I believe that Jack was used to being talked about. While he was aware that it was dangerous, it was not uncommon for him. We see evidence of this in the "Jimbo" scene at the bar, where Jack attempts to buy Jimbo the rodeo clown a drink. Jimbo seems very awkward, while Jack appears to be looking for something aside from conversation. Jimbo rebuffs him, and walks away. Jack looks over his shoulder, and we see Jimbo approach some guys playing pool. On his way to the guys, it appears Jimbo gestures towards Jack, and they may be talking about him.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxFclMNiuvI (Bar scene)
Jack is shocked by what Aguirre knows, and quickly leaves, but it didn't affect him to the point that Jack would stop seeing Ennis.
If this had happened to Ennis, it would've been the end of their relationship. Think back to the scene at the rocks and river (I think we called that the "some sweet life" scene). Ennis specifically says that they could only be together "once in a while, way out in the middle of nowhere", and if Ennis had known that they were actually seen by anyone way out in the middle of nowhere that would be the end of it. Especially since it was Aguirre, who hired Ennis. If he thought that Aguirre could prevent him from getting work anywhere else, that really would've pushed Ennis over the edge.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c293gMejW3o (some sweet life scene)
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I actually struggle to imagine what would have happened, if Aguirre had confronted Ennis. A total implosion or explosion, and I'm not sure which.
Ennis shows throughout the film that he reacts with violent aggression born of fear and shame if anyone indicates he's less of a man/ sees him crying etc. but in the case of his employer actually knowing - I don't know. Is it too far out for me to think suicide might have been a possibility? Ennis has a fragile sense of self, for all his seeming stoicism in his everyday life. I am not sure he could have managed to overcome facing that his 'weakness' actually had been laid bare, and by a person in authority at that. His father after all had shown him what men such as he deserved.
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What an interesting question…no question in my mind either that it would have pretty much sunk their relationship right then and there.
Perhaps an equally interesting question would be "would Joe have humiliated Ennis as he did Jack?" We already know he was contemptuous of Jack. Wonder why that was? Could have have seen something between Jack and the guy from the previous year? Or is he reacting (movie) to Jack being a "pretty boy?" Or was it simply because the previous year, too, too many sheep were missing at the end-of-season handoff? But would Joe have said the same things to Ennis? He said them to Jack because Jack asked for Ennis. I can't see Ennis asking for Jack--already too wary. I actually don't see Joe being as contemptuous of Ennis as he was of Jack, even though he saw them. Just an opinion.
ANYWAY. If he HAD talked to Ennis instead, I think it would have destroyed Ennis. It would have told him that even in the private Eden of Brokeback, someone is going to see you. Just like Earl and his lover. Or they're going to assume--remember, Aguirre never reveals that he actually saw them together. In Ennis' mind, that would almost be worse: if you spend time alone with a man, "they" are always going to assume. Certainly, when Jack sent the postcard, it would have been balled up and thrown out immediately. And Ennis would have either found somewhere else to be that day--or have beaten the crap out of Jack when he did show up.
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^^^ I like these questions... this is an angle / element I'd never considered before.
BLUF: My gut says IF Aguirre had confronted Ennis, that would have destroyed Ennis, maybe gotten Aguirre beaten up or worse yet, killed by Ennis. Likely gotten Jack killed by Ennis's hand and then Ennis would have suicided out. A double tragedy.
a) I agree 100% with what's posted earlier by royandronnie, Gillian, and CellarDweller115.
b) I'll add these, I believe:
1 > Ennis might have exploded violently with Aguirre, right then - right there. Why? I reference two scenes:
a) how he responded when Alma confronted him (at Thanksgiving Dinner). He, short-circuited, got very angry, stormed out of her house - like b/c he feared he might hurt her and then picked a fight with the guy in the truck. Ennis, I believe, had a volcanic temper that subtle and controlled - until someone pushed the wrong button. Look at the rage in his face, his clinched fist, just trembling ready strike Alma for what she said about him and Jack.
watch the entire clip -> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z5GIlEwPa7I (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z5GIlEwPa7I)
b) The "I wish I knew how to quit you" scene where Ennis tells Jack, "What I don't know, all them things I don't know...could get you killed if I come to know them..." Assemble those elements and we have an explosive hot button with Ennis.
~ 45-60 seconds into -> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVK6yLqY54w (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVK6yLqY54w)
2 > Ennis might have committed suicide. From his childhood trauma of "Earl in the ditch "drug around by his balls until the pulled off", Ennis knew, "what happened to boys like that...". The social "stigma" of anyone "knowing" he and Twist were lovers would have been "too much". Recall also Ennis says something about wondering if people looking at him "know..."
All these triggers are captured in the "sweet life" scene. The clip is the same one Chuck posted earlier - watch the whole clip. It is paramount to Ennis' inner being as a person and standing in the ranching community that "no one knows" about him and Jack. Also, as far as we know, the only person to ever confront Ennis about him and Jack was Alma.
c) "sweet life (by river) + Earl" -> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c293gMejW3o (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c293gMejW3o)
Stay safe, stay alive. Later. V.
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After reading all these responses, my own would likely be made up of bits & pieces of all of them so I'll just say thanks for all these great responses. It's pretty amazing there are some questions still out there that haven't been considered before! Makes me wonder if Aguirre had encountered similar situations previously.
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Though Ennis "never said many words".....he had a real short fuse.
Remember the firework display and how he reacted with those guys?
Remember how he reacted with Alma' conversation about "Jack Nasty"?
How he reacted to the driver of a truck that he nearly collided with while
walking to a bar ? Even though he came out worst in that confrontation.
With Aguirre knowing *THAT* kind of information and confronting him about
stemming the rose...I would easily say that Aguirre had signed his own death
warrant!.
(gattaca....only just read your answers AFTER I wrote mine. Seems we are kinda on the same page!)
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I think Joe Aguirre let Jack know in the Summer of 1964 that he knew about Jack's relationship with Ennis, perhaps because Jack had worked for him before and so he knew him a little better than he knew Ennis. Ennis might have flown into a blind rage and left Aguirre bowlegged. Remember, how he reacted when Alma revealed that she knew about Ennis' relationship with "Jack Nasty"? I think that's why he hauled ass out of Alma and Monroe's house because he was worried about what he might do. Although Aguirre probably found homosexuality "disgusting" he probably didn't care what Ennis or Jack did as long as they were taking care of the sheep.
If he wanted to, Aguirre could have confronted Jack about his "stemming the rose" with Ennis when he told Jack that his Uncle Harold was in the hospital with pneumonia. Maybe Aguirre knew that homosexuality was just too "taboo" of a subject in those days. People just didn't talk about being gay, except in hushed whispers or when making insulting jokes.
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A "behind the scenes" YT clip more recent... -> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0RXswP9TAnU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0RXswP9TAnU)
Nice. V.
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Also note: Focus Features has been posting some very high-quality clips from the film
a) Jack's Room -> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQ--vaFvU6I (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQ--vaFvU6I)
b) Reunion -> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EyLTZyVTmn8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EyLTZyVTmn8)
c) "I wish I knew how to quit you." -> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HeCVUIn_HHM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HeCVUIn_HHM)
More -> https://www.youtube.com/user/FocusFeatures/search?query=brokeback (https://www.youtube.com/user/FocusFeatures/search?query=brokeback)
V.
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Cool, thanks for the links, Vincent!
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Also note: Focus Features has been posting some very high-quality clips from the film - added a few more 28 Jun 2023
a) Jack's Room -> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQ--vaFvU6I (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQ--vaFvU6I)
b) Reunion Longer clip -> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EyLTZyVTmn8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EyLTZyVTmn8)
c) Reunion shorter clip -> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8lUzaDukbw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8lUzaDukbw)
c) "I wish I knew how to quit you." -> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HeCVUIn_HHM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HeCVUIn_HHM)
d) Start of the relationship -> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IALBZpgjEfk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IALBZpgjEfk)
e) The mountain brawl -> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OYdvdyTmBCY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OYdvdyTmBCY)
More -> https://www.youtube.com/user/FocusFeatures/search?query=brokeback (https://www.youtube.com/user/FocusFeatures/search?query=brokeback)
V.
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A nice summary..
https://screenrant.com/best-quotes-from-brokeback-mountain-heath-leadger-jake-gyllenhaal-annie-proulx-ang-lee/#quot-it-39-s-nobody-39-s-business-but-ours-quot (https://screenrant.com/best-quotes-from-brokeback-mountain-heath-leadger-jake-gyllenhaal-annie-proulx-ang-lee/#quot-it-39-s-nobody-39-s-business-but-ours-quot)