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OUR COMMUNITY => Support Groups & Connections => Topic started by: BrokenOkie on November 14, 2006, 01:26:44 PM

Title: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: BrokenOkie on November 14, 2006, 01:26:44 PM
The Moderator Team thanks everyone for their willingness to post about very personal and traumatic experiences recently in the 'How Brokeback Affected Me' thread.  Due to the nature and number of posts made there, we felt the discussion needed its own space and have added this new thread.

If you have experienced sexual assault, rape, inappropriate advances/behavior from others, have been bullied or beaten, or have been subjected to any other form of abuse and wish to share your story we hope you will consider this a safe place. 

Messages of support and/or encouragement are always welcome and are greatly appreciated as well.  Positive reinforcement is a vital part of the recovery process.

If you previously posted in 'Affected', whether as a survivor or as a compassionate & loving friend,  please feel free to copy and repost here.  If you would like to have your original post moved, or need help reposting, the Mod Team will be more than happy to assist.

Please be patient as we work to get this new thread set up and organized. 

Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: BrokenOkie on November 14, 2006, 01:34:26 PM
Originally posted November 11, 2006, 01:54:21 PM in 'How Brokeback Affected Me' in reply to
Catia's post:

http://davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=101.msg577878#msg577878 (http://davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=101.msg577878#msg577878)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

For Catia.......

As I read your post yesterday my heart shattered and there was an aching desire to reach out, grab you in a hug and never let go.  Damn the miles between us, but distance can't prevent that hug......(((((Catia))))).  I wish we could be sitting on those back porch steps together again right now, visiting, laughing and sharing a couple of Coronas.

{portions omitted}

I'm not trying to compare apples/oranges here - but I want to thank you because your strength and bravery to share encouraged me to post.  I'd considered it many times, but just couldn't until now.  Bless you, sweet dear friend.  I love you and know we will see each other again. 
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: desertrat on November 14, 2006, 02:40:08 PM
reposting...

*snip*I'm not trying to compare apples/oranges here - but I want to thank you because your strength and bravery to share encouraged me to post.  I'd considered it many times, but just couldn't until now.  Bless you, sweet dear friend.  I love you and know we will see each other again. 

glenn, you aren't comparing apples and oranges. you are very right. and please, learn to use the "r" word. it took me almost 10 years to finally use it. rape in a relationship is different than rape by strangers, that is true. one might not suffer the same injuries. but the isolation, the inability to talk about it, the ignorance by people around, by those who still deny that rape in a relationship exists and finally the repeated incident, over and over again, that is even worse. only by acknowledging that nobody, not even in a relationship, has the right to force you to do something you don't want to do, we can stop being vcitims.

my heart goes out to you, glenn, a big hug to you. i wish you all the strength of the world for your wounds to heal.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: killersmom on November 14, 2006, 03:09:42 PM
As we start this new thread and continue these discussions in this place, I want to thank from the bottom of my heart, EVERYONE who has shared their pain and felt comfortable enough with all here to bring their story here. I encourage all to please repost your story here for all those new folks who have not been present in the Affected Me thread, and come here due to the title. It is so important for all to continue these important discussions and support here in this place dedicated to these discussions. This being said....

I have been as drawn to the stories and comments as I have been wanting to stay away from them as they have opened up a place in my heart that has long been buried, and I have not ever wanted to visit again. It only comes back when I am at my lowest and my defenses are down. I did not want to share here, as I just did not want to go back and revisit any of it. Everytime I came in and read a new post, it took me back, and because of dealing with unrelated issues in my life at this time of year, I just felt I could not handle it. Not sure I still can. All of your posts have made me realize it is time to talk .

I realize that in sharing I can hopefully let this go and get on with dealing with the current issues in my life. Starting at about the age of 10, my brother who is 4 years older than myself, started molesting me. Did not have a term for it at that time, as it started out as just touching and then progressed to more uncomfortable touchings in what I called bad places. He warned me not to say anything as no one would believe me, I was doing it willingly  (although at that age I was unsure about any of this), I would get in trouble, all of the usual reasons the abuser gets the abused to not tell. This always happened when no one was around and as both my parents worked, the occasion presented itself more often than not.

It progressed until I was 13 and he attempted to go all the way. Up until this time it had only been touching. It got broken up as one of my sisters came home unexpectedly. I told him at that time if he tried anymore or ever again I would tell our parents, despite any repercussions to me. I think he finally realized I was serious and never attempted anything again. I kept it secret from everyone.

This next part I am not sure of, but will share it as part of the bigger picture. That summer, I went to a workshop for deciding about entering a religious order, the Sisters who had taught me all through grade school. I decided at that time, that this was the path I wanted to follow and entered the order that next Fall. I was there for 7 years, and then left at age 21, and left due to totally unrelated issues. I do not know if any of this was as a direct result of the abuse. I felt at the time that this was the path chosen for me and by me. At the time I did not know this, but feel now that this was a time of healing for me, a time when I was not anywhere around where it could happen again, from him from anyone. A refuge.

As I said, none of this occurred to me till much later in life, when I had learned much more through life's experiences. When folks ask me if I would enter the convent if I had it to do over again, I tell them unequivocally yes. It was a place that allowed me to become the person I am today. If I am sure of nothing else in my life I am sure of this. I realize now it was a refuge and a place of healing for me.

Have I forgiven my brother? That I am not sure of. I have as little to do with him as possible. I still am obligated to be around him at family functions. He is an alcoholic and when gets very drunk gets too familiar, and I either stay as far away as possible or leave. My family has always wondered why I have no use for him and I tell them  that I have no use for drunks. At this point it would be useless to have this conversation with any of my family members anyway. My parents are elderly and in poor health.

Thanks for listening and as I am sure with all of you, it is extremely, extremely hard for me to hit the post button, but if you are reading this, I did. I take my strength from all of you.

Linda
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Elevation on November 14, 2006, 03:36:14 PM
((((((Linda))))), as much as it breaks my heart to read your story, I am at the same time filled with a kind of hope for healing as with anyone telling others about their experiences. It is like lifting off a heavy burden of responsability and put it (if only symbolically) where it belongs--to the offender, your brother.
I would not be surprised if you find that the decision to join the Sister order had quite a lot to do with your past experiences.
Thankyou for hitting the post button.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Elevation on November 14, 2006, 03:39:30 PM
Originally posted November 11, 2006, 01:54:21 PM in 'How Brokeback Affected Me'   

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

For Catia.......

As I read your post yesterday my heart shattered and there was an aching desire to reach out, grab you in a hug and never let go.  Damn the miles between us, but distance can't prevent that hug......(((((Catia))))).  I wish we could be sitting on those back porch steps together again right now, visiting, laughing and sharing a couple of Coronas.

While reading what you endured, the injuries you suffered and how that awful experience affected your life, my mind started doing 'flashbacks' to something I rarely allow myself to think or talk about anymore, something that happened to me shortly after I came out.
(...)

(((((Glenn))))), thanks for reposting. Now I can send a big, big hug to you as well.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Amiennis on November 14, 2006, 06:38:21 PM
As we start this new thread and continue these discussions in this place, I want to thank from the bottom of my heart, EVERYONE who has shared their pain and felt comfortable enough with all here to bring their story here. I encourage all to please repost your story here for all those new folks who have not been present in the Affected Me thread, and come here due to the title. It is so important for all to continue these important discussions and support here in this place dedicated to these discussions. This being said....

I have been as drawn to the stories and comments as I have been wanting to stay away from them as they have opened up a place in my heart that has long been buried, and I have not ever wanted to visit again. It only comes back when I am at my lowest and my defenses are down. I did not want to share here, as I just did not want to go back and revisit any of it. Everytime I came in and read a new post, it took me back, and because of dealing with unrelated issues in my life at this time of year, I just felt I could not handle it. Not sure I still can. All of your posts have made me realize it is time to talk .

I realize that in sharing I can hopefully let this go and get on with dealing with the current issues in my life. Starting at about the age of 10, my brother who is 4 years older than myself, started molesting me. Did not have a term for it at that time, as it started out as just touching and then progressed to more uncomfortable touchings in what I called bad places. He warned me not to say anything as no one would believe me, I was doing it willingly  (although at that age I was unsure about any of this), I would get in trouble, all of the usual reasons the abuser gets the abused to not tell. This always happened when no one was around and as both my parents worked, the occasion presented itself more often than not.

It progressed until I was 13 and he attempted to go all the way. Up until this time it had only been touching. It got broken up as one of my sisters came home unexpectedly. I told him at that time if he tried anymore or ever again I would tell our parents, despite any repercussions to me. I think he finally realized I was serious and never attempted anything again. I kept it secret from everyone.

This next part I am not sure of, but will share it as part of the bigger picture. That summer, I went to a workshop for deciding about entering a religious order, the Sisters who had taught me all through grade school. I decided at that time, that this was the path I wanted to follow and entered the order that next Fall. I was there for 7 years, and then left at age 21, and left due to totally unrelated issues. I do not know if any of this was as a direct result of the abuse. I felt at the time that this was the path chosen for me and by me. At the time I did not know this, but feel now that this was a time of healing for me, a time when I was not anywhere around where it could happen again, from him from anyone. A refuge.

As I said, none of this occurred to me till much later in life, when I had learned much more through life's experiences. When folks ask me if I would enter the convent if I had it to do over again, I tell them unequivocally yes. It was a place that allowed me to become the person I am today. If I am sure of nothing else in my life I am sure of this. I realize now it was a refuge and a place of healing for me.

Have I forgiven my brother? That I am not sure of. I have as little to do with him as possible. I still am obligated to be around him at family functions. He is an alcoholic and when gets very drunk gets too familiar, and I either stay as far away as possible or leave. My family has always wondered why I have no use for him and I tell them  that I have no use for drunks. At this point it would be useless to have this conversation with any of my family members anyway. My parents are elderly and in poor health.

Thanks for listening and as I am sure with all of you, it is extremely, extremely hard for me to hit the post button, but if you are reading this, I did. I take my strength from all of you.

Linda

Dear Linda,

First of all, I'd like to applaud your courage to come out. I will do so within 10 days, I promised myself (and some of my PM friends). I'm already dreading hitting that button...
It must be really tough for you that you still have to be around your brother now and then, the rest of the family not knowing. The only thing I can say now, try to be as indifferent to him as possible. Forgiving... I don't know about that, I really don't. Some things are simply unforgiveable. They've been telling me for years to forgive, for I would free myself by doing so, but no one was ever able to answer my question HOW to do it. The theory of it seems good, but to put into the practice...

For now, I'd like you to know that I've been very seriously considering to enter a religious order, in my case, the Franciscans. In the end, it didn't work out because of my poor health, a direct consequence from the abuse and torture in my childhood. How cynical is that?
On the other hand, my not becoming a Franciscan has probably allowed me, in some strange way, to find this place, so... mysterious ways, indeed.
And I did learn a lot from them, the 4 years I spent with them.

I must say that I was a bit angry at first that my safe haven, the Affected thread, was taken away from me (in my perception) and that I was kind of forced to move here.
But in the end, I think you're right to have a separate thread. Especially for "us people", it is so vitally important to feel safe, to feel understood, to feel comfortable - a place where we can be ourselves, where we are accepted, however bruised and battered we may be.

May this thread become that safe place.

Marc
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: mcnell1120 on November 14, 2006, 06:55:39 PM

I must say that I was a bit angry at first that my safe haven, the Affected thread, was taken away from me (in my perception) and that I was kind of forced to move here.
But in the end, I think you're right to have a separate thread. Especially for "us people", it is so vitally important to feel safe, to feel understood, to feel comfortable - a place where we can be ourselves, where we are accepted, however bruised and battered we may be.

May this thread become that safe place.

Marc

OMG...Marc...at first I thought we were being hushed away..I'll be honest too..I thought we insulted those who just wanted it to be Brokeback's Affected thread....I figured it was because of Brokeback that allowed us to vent and open up,so why not keep it in there....but know now that it isn't so...these conversations are so deep and so many of us have come out with such stories...so many more will come....but this going back and forth is killing me...hahahahaha

My only problem now is if I decide to move all my post over here...it's going to be out of order...that's okay
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Amiennis on November 14, 2006, 07:01:38 PM

I must say that I was a bit angry at first that my safe haven, the Affected thread, was taken away from me (in my perception) and that I was kind of forced to move here.
But in the end, I think you're right to have a separate thread. Especially for "us people", it is so vitally important to feel safe, to feel understood, to feel comfortable - a place where we can be ourselves, where we are accepted, however bruised and battered we may be.

May this thread become that safe place.

Marc

OMG...Marc...at first I thought we were being hushed away..I'll be honest too..I thought we insulted those who just wanted it to be Brokeback's Affected thread....I figured it was because of Brokeback that allowed us to vent and open up,so why not keep it in there....but know now that it isn't so...these conversations are so deep and so many of us have come out with such stories...so many more will come....but this going back and forth is killing me...hahahahaha

My only problem now is if I decide to move all my post over here...it's going to be out of order...that's okay

¡Hola hermana!

I am truly glad to hear I am not the only one who felt that way...

I'd say, just put the URL's to your most vital postings here, that'll be sufficient, I reckon.


Tengo que ir a la cama ahora, esperando dormir un poco.
Un bbbbbbbbbbbbbbeso para tí, ¡hasta la próxima!
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: mcnell1120 on November 14, 2006, 07:02:35 PM
I also wanted to say...Linda,I know how hard it must of been for you to post this about your brother.....your own flesh and blood,which hurts even more. I'm sorry you had to go thru this alone and for so long. I'm so glad you took that jump and told us your story...you know it's going to get easier for you and it may surprise you that it may even help you when you see him face to face...you may never want to be alone with him,and that's okay,why should you?...but at least it will be less and less of a struggle. I'm very proud of you,Linda...and very glad you shared with us.

Love ya,

Nellie
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: mcnell1120 on November 14, 2006, 07:04:57 PM
Tengo que ir a la cama ahora, esperando dormir un poco.
Un bbbbbbbbbbbbbbeso para tí, ¡hasta la próxima!

Tu eres tan bueno con migo...siempre tienes algo que decir.....now go to bed...hahahahaha

Un beso para ti tambien..

Nellie xxoo
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: CellarDweller115 on November 14, 2006, 07:56:18 PM
Repost of my post to the "Affected" thread  Originally posted on 11/12/06




Well, I don't know if I've ever posted this story in this thread or not.

I had posted it in another thread a while back, maybe it's time to bring it out again, given what has been said here lately.

I was a freshman in high school.  Abuse was my daily life.  It had started as early as 2nd or 3rd grade.  The other kids had seen something in me that marked me as different, and I became a target. 

Having gone to Catholic grade school, I was totally unprepared for the culture shock of a public school.  Already withdrawn and fearful, I tried to pull the shell as tightly closed as possible.  On top of that, the kids I went to Catholic school with ended up going to the same public high school, and when the other kids saw me being picked on, they decided to join in.

Spent much of my time being pushed, shoved, spit at, punched, and being called every name in the book.  Bullies would turn to me to do their homework, knowing that I was getting high scores, and wouldn't have the courage to refuse.

One day, my study hall was moved to the auditorium, and when class ended, everyone began to file out.  One of my bullies met me at the back of the auditorium, to force me to do his homework.  I looked at my feet, and then saw his hand land on my chest, and push me to the wall, it was then that I realized we were alone in the auditorium, and then his other hand was on my crotch, rubbing me up and down.  I can still see the evil look on his face.

It felt like forever, but it was only a few seconds, and then someone walked into the other side of the auditorium, and he let me go and left.  If that other person hadn't come in, I have no idea what may have happened.  I never said anything.  The bully was one of the popular kids in school, and if I said anything, it would only confirm what they were saying about me anyway, and I couldn't risk that.

Graduated, and celebrated being away from those people, and got my first job in a local supermarket.  Two or three of the guys who would give me grief at school also got hired there, and the abuse continued.  At that time, I had no idea about lawsuits or discrimination on "sexual orientation", and I just took it.  I wouldn't quit, wouldn't let them do that to me, but I never defended myself.

Two things made me happy.....shopping and food, and by age 30 (having only finally coming out two years prior) was in debt with 4 maxed out credit cards and a line of credit at a bank, and nearly 300 pounds.

2 years before Brokeback, I went to a friend's wedding.  I love to dance, and can stay on the floor all night long.  After one song, I was out of breath, and knew I had to do something.  Diet and exercise helped me drop a bunch of weight, and i budgeted to get my stuff paid out.

When I saw Brokeback, I realized I was headed to a life like Ennis.  Ending up alone.

although I had started my own improvements before BBM came out, Brokeback reaffirmed to me that to live my life, I had to stop blaming my past for what I had allowed myself to turn into.  Ennis was too consumed by what other people would do to him, or what they would think of him.  Having lived through it, it helped me realize that I refuse to give anyone that power over me again.

It's my life to live, and I'm not going to run and hide or deny myself anymore.  Tire iron be damned.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Brokeback_1 on November 14, 2006, 08:29:26 PM
repost of what I originally put in the affected thread, Nov 14, 2006:   


Brad, Vincent, Chuck, Glenn, Catia you are... I don't know what. While reading your posts I had to get out of my chair, fiddl with my email and finally say screw this BS, just tell them how you feel without using a dictionary.

Here you are, one after the other baring your souls--all of you-- speaking about things we are NOT supposed to speak about. We are supposed to whisper these things; we are supposed to  bury these things as it appears to 'be the best way to handle it'.  We are supposed to just get over it. We are supposed to get on with life.

' To bury it would be best  for whom, exactly? People who won't hear the dirty little secret?'

 I asked that question many years ago, directly to the face of a "friend"  I'd decided to share a few things with. I was sick of his attitude towards anyone who seemed to have a problem of any sort and  shared  a few very specific  details about being repeatedly raped right after my 12th birthday, how they had manipulated me into silence by promising the same for my kid brother; that nobody would believe me; how they would make sure my parents thought I'd done it willingly; that I was queer anyway so what's the problem: " If you weren't  a homo nobody would have bothered you. You DO understand that don't you?"

It certainly would make someone like the jerk I told feel better! We are supposed to 'get over it' and 'tough it out' and 'live life'. He never managed to actually tell me how to DO that however...and didn't really want to. He just didn't want to deal with 'stuff like that.' Exit one unnecessary friend <g>.

When one of the guys who raped me told me/asked me that rhetorical question I denied it was true and just stared back, probably in that way boys have of just looking at you when you perpetrate an injustice which they can do nothing about.... But part of me figured it must be true or it would never have happened to me in the first place. I was one of the most clueless and  sheltered urban kids around, from a very loving and protective family [ How ironic.]--no debate about that whatsoever, I didn't even realise women were built differently from me until I was almost 12.  From that instant, with that ONE STATEMENT what was left of my personality fell apart. Children are more resiliant then people realise, they have enormous capacities for self preservation....but that one statement did me in.   It tore away ME from myself. Out of everything which was done to me that  was the worse,  that one line which took away who I was and might have been.

Why?  Because it made everything my own fault.  From that moment on I was guilty of my own abuse. I deserved it. To compound it in my traumatised head, I'd ignored what I call my inner warning system when it could have been avoided--sensing extreme danger, I blew the feeling off because they seemed cool. The result was weeks of being bent over with freaks violating everything I was and had while I told absolutely no one and showed up when told to out of fea and manipulation so incredible I still want to vomit when I think about it.  " What i did on my summer vacation."

One rhetorical question from a freak on a powertrip completely destroyed me. For years. It was the straw which broke my back, the ultimate rape. A rape of someone's future.

"Afterwards" I had hard thinking to do. I knew I wasn't queer even though inside I knew I had to be or none of those things would have happened to me. I  knew I wasn't straight.The confusion was complete... the sex had sometimes  felt good, so long as it wasn't anal. THAT I hated hated hated. I had hidden bloody underwear, washed it myself so my mother wouldn't know. Once I couldn't, so i used a shaving razor to cut inside my nose, and stanched the blood with my shorts. My appalled mother didn't have a clue that the blood wasn't all from my nose, which was fine with me, just what i intended [ years later, when she found everything out I thought she would have a nervous breakdown. I had written it down as it happened, and she found and read it]. But sexually i had enjoyed other things...sometimes:  If it wasn't meant to be I wouldn't have liked it. In such ways do traumatised boys think.

  I found myself  looking at both sexes: she has great boobs, he has a nice butt, she has a face, he is tall & has cool hair... I don't know how I got through it. I wasn't the most popular kid around to begin with, but now there really WAS nobody to talk with. And if you were adult, male and NOT related to me I had no trust for you whatsoever. I was scared of all girls, simply knew that if they got close to me they would KNOW. I acted as if everything was OK, and turned into this passive aggressive little brat who never opened his mouth. When asked why, always the same answer: nothing to say, better to listen. Safer, too.

The confusion would have been there anyway, I understand i was just born bisexual.. Looking back at my boyhood  I liked to play with  good looking friends AND pretty girls. But the abuse changed the process radically...I was this strange unqueer bisexual 12 year old fantasizing about muscles & breasts who had acquired a penile vocabulary whores would have respected. And no innocence  left whatsoever, I was 12 going on 20 with nastier secrets then the CIA.

 On my 13th birthday i coldly sat down and decided that if what looked to be true was the real deal, it had to be compartmentalised. There was no way i could sleep with a boy if I slept with a girl.  A few weeks later it hit me that if this was true, the reverse had to be just as true: if I had  a boyfriend, no sleeping with girls. It was all academic because i didn't have either but it was something I never ever forgot even when I ended up finding the crutch of beer at 17.

Everything was warped. Everything. Attempts to talk about it with buds in HS had been a complete catastrophe,  caused me years of misery. To gain--won't say regain-- a sense of who I was took years of time, thousands of hours of work and more self inflicted punishment in every area of my life then  a war criminal should endure but the bottom line is that it ended up with me being what i like to think is a pretty nice person. I went through hell before it became OK, before i learned to love myself, but it happened.

It looks like it happened and is happening with all of you as well. I want to apologise for writing all of this when intending to say things to you who posted. But maybe I have, in a way. I'm one of you and love you. There are a lot of us out there, more guys then anybody would believe, and more women. Thank you all, thank you for your love, thank you for who you are, thank you for your guts.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Brokeback_1 on November 14, 2006, 08:30:22 PM
No Fritz, i know it. It took years but I feel it and know it.

thanks fritz.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: fritzkep on November 14, 2006, 08:35:41 PM
For the sake of completeness, the post by Jack just before this (#14) was a response to this one in response to Jack's previous post (#13):

Oh Jack and everybody, I know I've said it before, but only my imagination can tell me how terribly you all have suffered from the betrayal that you endured at such a young age. I know that intellectually you know it, but a part of you still rejects emotionally the fact that THIS ABUSE WAS ABSOLUTELY NOT YOUR FAULT. NO WAY, NOW HOW. Sorry to scream it, but we all have to repeat it to you as many times as possible until you all begin to realize it deep down in your heart and gut. As so many of you have pointed out, the betrayal of trust is in many ways worse than the physical or mental abuse in itself. I pray for the gift of true and complete healing for all of you.

Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: paintedshoes on November 14, 2006, 08:38:24 PM
Repost from The Affected Me thread 11/14/2006

I have spent this morning reading more tales of pain visited upon my dearest brothers and sisters, and my heart breaks for all of you.  For my brothers Brad and Jack and Chuck and Jari and Glenn and Vincent and Jean, my sisters Nellie and Martina and Catia and Conny, so many of us hurt in so many ways, yet the pain is the same:  the denial of self becomes the price of survival.

I was 9 when it started for me.  While at Mass one Sunday morning, I had to go to the bathroom and found myself in the Church basement, alone, when I was approached by the church and school janitor.  He backed me into a corner, kissed me, violently and repeatedly, and touched me in places I should not have been touched, repeatedly.  Then, the words:  don't tell anyone, or I will tell your father how evil you are for "letting" me do this.  I tried to avoid him after that, but he would find me, in church or at school.  Some times, if I was with someone (as I tried always to be), he would send them away on an errand.  I didn't know how to say anything, certainly couldn't stop him.  It went on for several years, not often, a few times a year, maybe...I started staying home "sick" from school, it didn't help, of course, since I never knew when he would decide to corner me.  Eventually, the attacks just stopped.  I learned years later that I was not his only victim...and felt guilty, since if I had said something, maybe it wouldn't have happened to the others. 

I don't know if the fact that it happened in church had anything to do with the doubts that I developed about religion, though, of course, it probably did.  Why could this happen to me in church, where I should have been protected?  How could the priests employ this man, for years?

I hated myself, certainly, for what I "allowed" to be done to me.  I ate, a lot, probably thinking that if I was fat, he would leave me alone...that everyone would leave me alone.  And eventually, I was alone.  No man wanted me...I never dated in high school.  I lost weight to join the Air Force, dated some then, nothing serious til I met the man I was to marry.  He was, and is, a good man.  We married, raised a family, found that our lives needed to go in different directions, and finally parted.

I'm learning more, each day that I come to this place, that what was done to me as a child does NOT have to affect my life now.  It is not easy.  I don't know if I will ever be able to forgive the man who hurt me, but, I have learned to put the pain aside and concentrate on now.  The nightmares are almost gone, now. I am learning to be indifferent to the past, as I will NOT any longer let it rule my present or my future.  A lot of that strength is garnered from all of you here.  Your wisdom in the face of suffering, your caring and compassion for all those who hurt, brings me such joy for "the assured approaching possession of a good."  The good that comes of healing, of moving toward a present and a future full of happiness, not desolation.  Of no longer denying myself.  Of being truly who I am, perhaps for the first time in my life.  Bless you all, always.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: paintedshoes on November 14, 2006, 08:42:51 PM

Have I forgiven my brother? That I am not sure of. I have as little to do with him as possible. I still am obligated to be around him at family functions. He is an alcoholic and when gets very drunk gets too familiar, and I either stay as far away as possible or leave. My family has always wondered why I have no use for him and I tell them  that I have no use for drunks. At this point it would be useless to have this conversation with any of my family members anyway. My parents are elderly and in poor health.

Thanks for listening and as I am sure with all of you, it is extremely, extremely hard for me to hit the post button, but if you are reading this, I did. I take my strength from all of you.

Linda
Linda, dear sister, I honor your decision to share this with us.  Forgiveness may never come, and may never NEED to come.  I hope only that you can put this ordeal that you suffered into a place in your heart where it cannot hurt you any longer.  We are here for you, always.  You need not deal with this alone any longer.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: conny on November 14, 2006, 09:22:12 PM
i diont think i`ve ever posted the initial story,so here it goes(short version)

I was raped at 15,it was carnaval,that always comes together with lots of booze,and so did i,i was drunk,maybe he was too,don`t know that anymore.We went outside for some kissing,but i ended up there in that alley being name called and raped,lost my virginity right there and then,outside in the cold on the concrete.
Afterwards came to my sences,told one of my friends inside who beated the crap out of him,but for me that didn`t matter anymore. i went home alone,had to take care of my drunk younger brother before my parents came home,and had to wash my clothes,and then went to bed.don`t know how i felt anymore.do know i saw him again later that week and he totally ignored me.
Later on he started harassing me by phone,my parents found it,and we even had the police involved,but that was cause of the harrasment and the calling,and it luckily stopped after a while. i didn`t give him it,cause he said i wanted it!! and it was his words again mine,and by then there was nothing to show anymore.The rest was bottled up inside of me.
i don1t know anymore how my emotional state was later on,i do know i totally  got into the wrong way after that.drank a lot,let people abuse me,my self asteme was so low,i didn`t care what happened to myself anymore,they could have sex with me,i didn`t give a shit,felt nothing anymore. and that went on for a couple of years,until i came a bit to my sences,met my first husband who was very young,and didn`t want any sex yet.boy that was a relief,and we didn`t have non,for about a year.
When it finally did happen,it was ok,but i couldn`t feel anything,couldn`t have an orgasm,i just was dead inside.
That only changed years later when a girlfriend fell in love with me and opened me up,but thats another story.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: conny on November 14, 2006, 09:22:35 PM
i now don`t have time to repost my posts from the affected thread,will do that later today,but thanks for this thread.
And linda,thanks sweety for sharing your deepest emotions with us,so proud of you,love ya  :-*
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: paintedshoes on November 14, 2006, 09:29:16 PM
Conny, darling, how many times is it the "fault" of the abused because we "asked for it?"  I'm so sorry that you had to go through those years of pain, and lack of self-esteem, but you are a strong woman and you are here with us now, and you are loved, my sister.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: conny on November 14, 2006, 09:35:13 PM
Conny, darling, how many times is it the "fault" of the abused because we "asked for it?"  I'm so sorry that you had to go through those years of pain, and lack of self-esteem, but you are a strong woman and you are here with us now, and you are loved, my sister.

yes and i am so thankfull for all of you.
i went trough all of this and the rest that came after this experience in my hypnotherapy last year,relived it all again,and that hurted a lot,but also healed me. i think reliving it is the best way to get it out of your system for real!
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Brokeback_1 on November 14, 2006, 10:44:18 PM
Do you know what is astonishing? Damned near every person who has been affected here on DC is someone who is more then usually involved with the forum, every single person is considered a CATCH by a lot of people on and off of the Forum and every single one has a good heart.

This is just the truth.

Maybe we have all learned something. Christianity says suffering ennobles the sufferer if he/she can learn to forgive and build upon ruins. Some of this abuse was from simple morons, some was from bad people with worse intentions. I don't see any bitter and bad people here.

Every one who posted has triumphed in many many ways.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Brokeback_1 on November 14, 2006, 10:46:26 PM
Conny, the whole story makes me sick. So many boys are complete morons, they simply don't have a clue what their actions lead to, what it puts the girl through.


" i think reliving it is the best way to get it out of your system for real!"

OR

the best way around it is THROUGH it.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Brokeback_1 on November 14, 2006, 10:51:00 PM
Originally posted in the Over 50 thread

Quote from: brokeback_1 on September 15, 2006, 12:17:15 AM
I didn't used to like old farts very much when I was a kid until I got helped by some of them. But that's a long story, doubt anybody would want to hear it in here.
Qoute from WLAGuy on September15, 2006,
You're joking, right?  Start spilling the beans, buddy, or else!
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Caithness on November 14, 2006, 10:51:53 PM
NB:  Moved this post from 'Affected' thread  15.11.06

After watching BBM x number of times, noticing the profound effects the film has had upon all of you and upon me, and whilst reading the very personal revelations these past few days, I find that my protective instincts have kicked in.  I wanted/want to jump into my auto and to drive, or to jump onto an aeroplane and to fly to each individual, so to listen, to soothe, to hold, to protect.  At times like these "I swear" I wish teleportation was a real possibility.

My veneer is that of an Anglican priest, but protective instincts manifested themselves long before ever I entered Theological College, long before I was ordained a priest.  What follows, for now, is a brief prologue, and another of my little sagas, to illustrate what I mean.  Make of the parallels to BBM what you may.

Prologue:

My Dad was badly wounded on D-Day +1—yet another story to tell some other time.  Dad hated violence of any kind, though funnily enough he was keen on Western films and television programmes.  When watching Western film fighting, Dad would open his mouth, point his index finger at it, and make gagging noises, always followed by an  “Oh, puh-leeeze.”

Dad told me repeatedly, however, that if ever I had to fight:  get in there, get on with it, get it over with.  Go for the gonads, he said, bring him down and wale on him, finish him off.  Dad said never to worry about being accused of fighting ‘dirty’, seeing that all fighting is dirty, even if occasionally necessary. 

Saga:

As I have written before, I went to a boarding school for boys in Scotland from age 8 until I finished school at age 16.  British boarding school bullying is legendary; it was no different at my school.

On a day shortly before the Christmas break, December 1965, my beloved James came flying into my room, a bully hard behind.  The bully was my 13-year-old cousin, David [insert hyphenated surname here].

I was then 9, James, 10, but still he was much smaller than I.  At 9, I was already 5’3-5” (I stopped at 6’2”) and quite as tall as David, though 4 years younger.

I shouted for James to get onto my bed.  I pushed David into the corridor, put my knee into his groin, hard.  He crumpled to the floor, I leapt on top of him, and waled away.  I continued to wale on him until he moaned for me to stop.  He was finished.

To my knowledge, no one ever touched James again.  James would have told me, I think.  Besides, most of the boys in the house came rushing into the corridor to witness the ‘waling’, and the word spread round school that I was not someone with whom “to trifle”.  [I meant the business of 'trifling' as something of a joke.  However, to make a 'statement' that one will not be bullied, nor allow others to be bullied, is a practical necessity in a boarding school, amongst other places.]

The next day, I was punished for the fight by the headmaster, with “six of the best”, that is, six strokes of the cane across my bare bottom.  It hurt like billy-o, but I did not give a toss.

Back to James.  After David was finished in the corridor, I went into my room, closed and locked the door.  James was on my bed, sobbing, nose bloodied, left eye already swelling.  I washed his face and removed his tears with a warm facecloth and gave him a cool facecloth to hold to his eye.

I put my arm around his shoulders and spoke softly to him.  He was still trembling, so I then held him closely.  Even now these 41 years later, his scent is in my nostrils.  I held him until the trembling ceased, until his quick breath slowed.

We held each other, until there was a sharp rap on the door…the house master.  I knew I was in deep shite, but I did not care.

I cannot vouch for the look on my face, but in the look in the eyes of James, swollen though one was, I saw everything.  We were the closest of friends for 29 years and, finally, as I have written previously, for the 3 brief months before his sudden death, at last partners and lovers.

Ah, protective instincts…what I feel now towards each one of you who has been hurt, and are still hurting.  Obviously, I cannot and would not track down those who have hurt you so to wale on them (as I did to my cousin, David), but my deepest wish, instinct, if you will, is to protect, to comfort, to soothe, to love.  Just know that, even from this distance, in my thoughts and meditations, I embrace each of you.

Epilogue:

My cousin, David, turned out a good fellow.  In later years, James and David became good friends.  After James’ death, I learnt that James depended much on David and John for friendship and solace during the years I was in Zambia, Angola and Zaïre (as DR Congo was then named).

Malcolm
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Brokeback_1 on November 14, 2006, 10:52:48 PM
originally posted in the Over 50 thread, September 17, 2006




When I told a few friends I needed something special for post 1000, didn't have a clue it would be what's below.
 A few days ago WLAGuy and I had a series of PM's  and I answered his question. Well part anyway..the trust business I once had with 'older' men. I sent him this and he told me I HAD to post it. After thinking about it I worked on it a little more and decided to do just that.

If it doesn't belong in the over 50's thread the mods can put it wherever they think it should go. I for one am not sure it DOES belong here, but it deals with how a young guy learned to trust this very 50+ aged group so I'm taking a chance. Like I said our mods are free to move it, of course.

It's really a long post, for which I apologise in advance.
Jack
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I’ve already said  that I had a lot of trust issues where older non familial men were concerned. Now, older meant something very different  when I was a kid from what it means to me now, so bear with me, I’m trying to reach back a couple of decades lol.

I don’t see any need to go into the actual events, they’re not suitable for our forum. All it would prove is that sometimes, even in a nice, safe neighborhood, even when you have loving  family…’shit happens’. Besides, it’s a long dead horse inside me and there’s no need to whip a dead horse. Suffice it to say that there was a lot of  M/M sex forced on me; not a single man involved was actually gay as gay men--and society for that matter--define ‘gay’…. They were sneaky sociopaths who were on a power trip. At the time I couldn’t differentiate, but generically blamed gay men.

Now, my teenaged years? The less said the better, My family didn’t find out what had happened  for several years--I told NOBODY.  But I did begin to abuse alcohol, started immediately after the incidents ceased; got so sick I ‘learned my lesson’, and didn’t drink again until I was 16. But when I started, it was heavy. By the time I was 17, I was a drunk. Ok, move ahead a few more years…by 23 the alcohol and drugs had begun to ruin me, everything I touched was seemingly wrecked. Trust for men was non-existent, especially ‘my own’...and that’s what this post is really about: the ability to TRUST.  So I am skipping a great deal here .

 As a teenager/young adult I was a real train wreck, ok re the externals but a world-class lunatic inside. There were  horrible sexual conflicts made worse ‘cause I didn't fit into the usual labels.  I wasn't str8--but wanted to be; wasn't gay--but had gay sex; was afraid I'd  be forced to spend  life singing Broadway show tunes.…and couldn’t sing <g>. I was so confused about the queer side that the alcohol intake was killing me

With hindsight, BEING gay didn't bother me; the problem was never FEELING  gay in the accepted sense of the term. The social stigma of being “queer” did bother me; when it came to guys my own age the ones I was attracted to were  str8 and unattainable so I stayed away--didn’t want any trouble. Nor was I willing to gain an even worse  rep. The guys who liked ME  seemed total douchebags; losers who didn't even want to know my name. They'd ask if I’d like a B.J. Just like that. Offer to bend over. Just like that. Offer to bend ME over. They fixated on my penis, wanting clinical details while gushing about my eyes. None gave a damned about me as a man, all behaved so badly I couldn’t help but think of them as shitheads. Even now I can’t believe the brain dead shallowness of the teens through 23 crew I ran into in NYC!

 Let’s get real here, I was and am just OK  looking--even now, you can easily tell this from my pics in the members thread-- yet they acted like I was grand prize in a contest I’d never entered. They made me feel like a zoo specimen. I still don’t know why handsome Italian boys and jocks with muscles on top of muscles acted like that.

Now when it came to guys who were a bit older, 25  to mid thirties--they messed with my  head and  told me what they thought  I'd want to hear but  never the truth. So I neither liked nor respected most yet they DID  sexually  turn me on. I had no trouble allowing them to get me off and if they were hunky enough I reciprocated.

It was emotionally far easier for me to be with a girl. Odd though it might seem, they were less full of shit then the guys were. If I developed an M/F emotional attachment  I neither cheated nor wanted to cheat, with either sex. This was by both design and inclination.[ Naturally monogamous bisexual male here] The question never came up with men because I never  had any relationships, it was all casual sex. If I wasn't with anybody I’d look for both. There was no problem within my head and heart  having emotional romantic attachments with either sex, but the men didn’t reciprocate. To be blunt, the guys I was attracted to just wanted to suck me off or be dominated [ it was very strange, masochists were drawn to me like flies to a picnic]. So when I was 'single' I'd get the sex, which--unlike with women-- I didn't  have to ask or work for.

 As for men 35 +, I can't even begin to tell you how many times I was offered money to  allow them to have sex. [ The answer was politely No if they were polite  and obscenely declined  if they were nasty.] The true El-Primo-Bottom-of-the-Barrel-post-pubescent-low was achieved by  the father of a friend of mine, when I was in HS. This loser had always made me wary. My post-molestation instincts-- rather highly developed after being repeatedly raped when I was 12--always set off alarm bells around this creep. One day I was eating dinner at their house when he and his mother had to unexpectedly leave. My bud asked me to wait until he came back, watch tv, etc.   As soon as they left Dad began to put serious moves on me.  With a hundred dollar bill thrown in for a sweetener!!  He stuck it down my shirt, the smarmy bastard started to feel me up. I was the same height at 17 that I am now yet big though I was, it flipped and wierded me out to a point where  I  started shaking, began crying and ran out of that house. To this day I’m not quite sure what happened when they got back but my friend waited until he saw me at school and demanded to know what I had done to his father. I said I’d done nothing and he belted me in the jaw, hard. I got up , just looked at him for a minute and then pulled that hundred dollar bill out of my pocket. I told him to give it to his father. Can’t say I really gave a damned by that point.

 A few days later he apologized, said he knew I was telling the truth. I think he confronted his father on it. It was very hard for him, and when he apologized he gave me a look you can’t mistake….. I think his father may have done something to HIM at some point. We patched it up but it really ended the friendship. I avoided damned near everybody after that, which was weird because I was a social animal yet a real loner. The result was pure loneliness.

I was  lucky in my 20's to be given the opportunity to meet older gay men as people. Yeah, can you believe it?? Not as daddy, not as social parasites, not as --what the hell is that term again? yeah turkey hawks I think...might be wrong about. Anyway I got to meet the older homos as PEOPLE. And don’t get offended by the description…lol, they certainly weren’t!

As you have probably guessed, unless you were related to me,  there was no trust for older-type men in my make-up, I’d been abused too much by men over 35 for that. The episode just described, with my friends father, well THAT formally buried any vestigial trust for years. If you weren’t in my family, beat it old man!  It seemed as if that particular age group had been lining up to fuck me over at every turn from the day I’d turned 12.

Ok, so fast forward a few more years until I’m 22-23, feeling dead, an alcoholic since I was about 17, a pothead, drained of motivation, wary and paranoid, sought after by morons who --as they charmingly put it--wanted to service me, and so screwed up that I was even beginning to avoid women because they would KNOW.  { Told ya--I was a train wreck lol}  The effects of alcohol were messing everything up so I decide to stop drinking and go to this12 step program. Surprisingly, the guys there actually wanted to know what I thought, who I was. ...INSIDE. This was a shock.  A few months after I stopped drinking the walls started tumbling  down. It was impossible to maintain them with people who actually cared who I was.

 At that point an old gay man who had always been cool--wrong word--HUMAN describes it far better--asked me out for coffee and said the following: " What the fuck is wrong with you, every time I try to talk with you you act as if I'm going to shove a broom up your ass."  I was so floored that I actually sat there for 3 hours and told him WHY I always  acted as if he was about to shove a broom up my ass lol lol lol. I kept expecting him to behave according to the traditional script. He didn't. Instead he listened.  That alone  blew me away. When I saw him a few days later he was with two old farts I didn’t recognize. I saw him whisper something to them and they said hello to me. Instead of neutrally grunting in response, I did something remarkable and returned their greeting, pleasantly asking[ I’m serious roflmao] if he now expected me to greet every old, gray, gay or untrustworthy fart alive. The 3 of them damned near fell out of their chairs. We spoke. Later he asked me if  I'd care  to meet some friends of his, and I instantly said sure. It amazed me as soon as the words were out of my mouth.

When I showed up at his apartment on the designated day, I found 9 other men there. I had never met most--and every goddamned person there looked old enough to Remember The Maine.

This was of course ridiculous and even then I understood: some were younger then I am right now! The point is that they were all in the “adult gay male” group which I  intentionally avoided.

 I was introduced, they were introduced, we all spoke to each other about our experiences learning how to live life without drinking. Eventually my friend brought the conversation around to me.  A German from West Berlin asked me a few questions, which I honestly answered. Any tactfull social  inhibitions which might have existed evaporated after the stunned silence which ensued before laughter filled the room, when I asked him if he had sucked on dick to pass time during the more boring  days  of Alaric’s 3rd Siege of Rome.  I mean hell, I was IMPOSSIBLE. Yet for hour after hour I talked, they questioned, they talked, I listened, I asked questions, and they answered them to the best of their ability.  With HONESTY.

I knew very well that some of those fellows wanted to get into my jeans yet not a single one of them ever tried, then or later. No crap, no moves, no phony friendship, lies. Just gut level honesty. I  had the balls to ask if “ any of you saintly bastards want to take my pants off “… It was half a joke but I meant it, wanted to see what was. Without really understanding, I was testing these men. A few said No. One said No, you’re too crazy. And a few said Yes. When I heard the word YES it blew me away because I’d  expected blanket denials followed by groping minds…or hands.  It floored me because it was honest and when I say I wasn’t used to it, I  MEAN I wasn’t used to it.

 In a few short hours these guys managed to completely disarm me,  fortifications, city walls, moats dug over and for years began to collapse of their own weight---and collapse FAST, so fast that even I didn’t believe it. My carefully tended walls became an archaeological site, ruins all over the landscape. This is something which has been pointed out to me by other people on several occasions in life, namely that when  something basic changes, the changes happen so fast it’s almost unbelievable.

I think that when this happens a spark has ignited a bit of dynamite inside my head. I don’t use these terms loosely either--each time this has happened, a sort of critical mass had been achieved and I was just…waiting for the catalyst to light the fuse. This is going on right now, as a matter of fact. Since Feb 8--the day I saw BBM--my life has done a complete 180 degree turn. Jack from the boards, he asked me to call him up and I did, he was concerned because the changes are so FAST. He’s not the only one who is startled, either. Some of my friends are still open-mouthed. The thing is, to me they’re not fast, to me each action has engendered  the next, one building upon the other. And none has been huge, they were all small steps. Taken together those steps formed a walk across Europe from  Paris to Constantinople. Taken separately, they were a walk from one room to another. They…built up.

But I digress. From that moment on, a very novel thought came up: namely that I was trusting males older then me again.  . Every one of my new friends was  'older and gay', the oldest being about what, 75 I think at the time and the youngest maybe 45. It was nothing less then an intervention of sorts. I became their project, or, as one put it: " What I did on my summer vacation." LMAOOOOO

I drove them crazy for years, once they took up a collection to send me money in Turkey when I met a German girl there and wanted to follow her to Berlin. To this day it awes me that we all got so close and not a single man ever made a big deal of it, told the genral public about ‘ What they did on their summer vacation.’ There are people who knew me and some of these men for 20 years and haven’t a clue that we even liked each other. To me that’s priceless.

Most of those guys are dead today from AIDS and old age. Not once did they ever betray trust or do something which could have done damage to me. When I fell down they helped pick me up. When I did well they cheered me on. They yelled at me and called me names.  They demanded that I stop calling MYSELF names. They helped me grow up, deal with life, you name it. If I have NO trust issue today it's due to them alone. They taught me how to live…more precisely, they taught me that my parents were right, most people were decent, you can’t allow the rotten apples to destroy the entire crop. .
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Rob in Puyallup on November 14, 2006, 10:54:42 PM
Dear forum family members...

It's very painful reading your stories, I have found that I can't always read them from beginning to end knowing that many of you posting are amongst the dearest people in my life. Members of my chosen family. I love you all so much...

I, too, have a very troubled past. Much of it I have already posted within our forum, some still buried deep inside myself still awaiting discovery. Most of it I'd prefer not to recall, I'm sure...

What I do recall is a childhood of neglect and abuse. The affects of which is who you know here... a rather shy, mostly timid personality seeking acceptance after a childhood of deep loneliness.

Amongst my oldest memories are those spent in hospital beds being given IV fluids... I remember needles being poked in my body by many nurses trying to find a vein, all collapsed due to dehydration. Kidney disease discovered at 18 months of age, ongoing treatments of IV fluids, cortisone and drugs for several years.

I recall the earthquake of 1965 (?) here in Western Washington and somehow finding myself under my bed with my sister, then running downstairs to find Mom and Dad together. My only memory of the two of them together prior to their divorce.

I recall a "friend" of our family, in that same house sexually abusing my sister and me, I recall only one episode, sis says they happened countless times.

I recall Mom and Dad's separation when I was about 5 years old. Suddenly Mom, sis and me living elsewhere, with that "friend's" ex-wife. Dad not with us, then Mom not being with us either for who knows how long. I remember Mom returning then our moving into an apartment there in the "projects" of Tacoma.

I remember Mom's house so filthy, food rotting in pots and pans, not a single clean utensil in the house. Easier to go to the store to buy another pot then to find the sink to wash one of the many in the kitchen.

I remember dog and cat "dirt" on the floors of that apartment, rarely cleaned up unless it was in the path that lead from the front door, to the TV, the couch, to the kitchen, bedrooms and bathroom.

I recall grandma coming to visit and the mad dash to clean that apartment before she arrived, she never satisfied after all the hard work my sister and I did, as 8 and 9 year olds. She blaming us for the condition our living arrangements.

I recall Mom hiding out in her bedroom forgetting that she had children. I recall Dad and stepmom telling sis and me that they had thought about calling the authorities on Mom to get sis and me taken from her to be placed in a foster home. But they never did. Never offered sis and me a home until I was 12, and sis 11. By then it was too late, the damage done.

I recall bullies, threatening to beat the crap out of me for no reason except for the fact that I "stank"... and that I was "fat". I learned to run to get away from them, too "weak" to protect myself. I recall being the "perfect" child. Too shy to speak for myself. My sister completely opposite me, being over dramatic, very loud and always running away from home.

--------------------
Several years back as I cared for my mother who was dying of cancer many of these memories resurfaced. They had been buried for a long time. She sat in my apartment, sick and dying and the memories slapped me frequently. Her illness brought on completely unexpected grieving, much of that caused from these memories buried so long, renewed.

I ALWAYS knew, to as far back as my memory goes, that I was "gay". I knew it. Until March of this year I kept that to myself except for a couple people.

I recall a movie that came out almost a year ago that started me getting over a whole shit load of crap that had stalled all personal growth. To it, to Ennis and Jack, to my Nick, to Sherry, and to all of you here I am thankful that my life is brighter than it ever has been, brighter than I ever thought it could be...

I love you all!
Rob
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Jules on November 15, 2006, 01:53:21 AM
I'm so proud of you all, my friends...All my love to you.

Repost from the Affected Me thread, November 10, 2006

It’s been a long time since my last post here. I felt the need to keep off from this thread, as it was getting too hard to read these posts and feel the pain renewed and somehow strengthened every time, a pain I can’t really relate to something specific, but which is still here and doesn’t seem to go away.

But I accidentally read here about forgiveness, and something happened, as if a light had been switched on: maybe it’s time to talk about this with someone, and I can’t think of anyone more special than you all. Please bear with me, I don’t think it really fits here, but here it is and moderators please forgive me also because I’m afraid it’s going to be a long one.

Two men raped me when I was seventeen years old. I was walking alone in the street, they caught me from behind and threatening me with a knife they raped me for hours, one at a time, again and again. They didn’t seem to ever get enough, they probably were under the influence of some drug. They beat me, called me unrepeatable names, I thought that my life was over, that they would have killed me, afterwards. But I got "lucky" and they left me there, bleeding, in the street. Fortunately my parents were on vacation and not coming back for another week and my brother was abroad, so I had the time to recover myself and find a way to hide the bruises. I didn’t go to the hospital, and I never sued anybody. I never told my parents about the rape, but after a month I found out that I was pregnant. I didn’t know what to do, I was so scared because those two men told me that they would have killed my family if I talked to someone about what happened. I was underage, and had to had an abortion.

When it was almost getting too late for it, I was 3 months pregnant, I plucked up the courage and told my mother that I had sex with a boy, that I was pregnant, and that I didn’t want to keep the baby. This almost killed her and speaking of forgiveness, I know it took her a lot of time to forgive me for that, if ever she did...we never talked about it since then, anyway, and I gave her a lot more reasons during my life to be ashamed of me. This was only the first one. We agreed my father must not come to know it (and he died not knowing it, 4 years later) and so my brother. I had to get a specific written permission from the Juvenile Court as well as my mother’s, and eventually I had the abortion.

I never wanted children in all my life; I don’t have any maternal instinct, probably because I never felt like a woman, but that’s another story. Truth is, I had to get rid of that baby, because I saw it as a monster, something put inside of me by the evil one itself. When I woke up after the anesthesia I thought that it was over, that I was “clean” again, and that I could put what happened behind me. Obviously, it wasn’t so easy, and those scars got re-opened hundred times during the following years.

I never regretted that decision, I know that I did what was best for myself, but some years later I began to think about that child, about how old he (don’t know why I’m sure he was a boy) would have been then, and all of a sudden I saw him for the first time for what he was: an innocent creature I killed. I’m pro abortion, this is not the point; point is that I felt guilty for what I thought about him, being the son of the evil, being a monster, being something horrible I had to get rid of. But he was just an innocent baby, and those two men were the evil, not him. I will never forgive them, no way, but I don’t have nightmares about that night any longer. What I needed to do when I realized that, was to forgive myself for the hate I felt for that child, and since I don’t believe in a god, there was really no one who could forgive me but myself. Not an easy task.

Sometimes we think and do horrible things, to others and to ourselves, but I eventually understood that human beings can make mistakes, can be weak, mad, coward because of their ignorance, their youth, their fear.

To me Brokeback Mountain has been the key to the so many doors I closed inside my heart, carefully hiding behind them all my pain and fears, and carrying on with my life pretending that everything was fine. But then I saw the film and my heart broke to pieces. Brokeback Mountain opened all of them, very slowly, one at a time, as if to make sure that I was carefully looking at what I had done, and when I saw all that was hidden there, it almost killed me. This was 8 months ago.

I can’t say that I have moved on, or made significant changes in my life, I'm an Ennis and always will be, but at least now I know that I have forgiven myself for what I’ve done 23 years ago. That child would be 23 years old, today, and I hope he has forgiven me as well, wherever he is.

Boy, this was hard to write.

 
 
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: killersmom on November 15, 2006, 01:54:17 AM
Dear Marc,
Thank you so much!  I know that you will make the decision when it is time for you. I know how difficult that this is for you, but when it is right, you will know.

It is tough being around my brother, but luckily it is not very often. I am thankful for this. I have been indifferent to him for many many years now, so it will continue.

You have a very valid point about forgiving. I too wonder about the process, and pass on the process for now. I will try to deal with him as I can.

I had known about your story concerning your time with the Franciscans, and I know what your time with them has meant for you as it had for me. And as you say as a result of this your found us.

Thanks so much for being here and supporting all here as you do so well. I am so glad you moved over and know that this place has already become that haven and safe place. We are all here for one another, and will continue to be so. We are your safe place

Linda



Dear Linda,

First of all, I'd like to applaud your courage to come out. I will do so within 10 days, I promised myself (and some of my PM friends). I'm already dreading hitting that button...
It must be really tough for you that you still have to be around your brother now and then, the rest of the family not knowing. The only thing I can say now, try to be as indifferent to him as possible. Forgiving... I don't know about that, I really don't. Some things are simply unforgivable. They've been telling me for years to forgive, for I would free myself by doing so, but no one was ever able to answer my question HOW to do it. The theory of it seems good, but to put into the practice...
 
For now, I'd like you to know that I've been very seriously considering to enter a religious order, in my case, the Franciscans. In the end, it didn't work out because of my poor health, a direct consequence from the abuse and torture in my childhood. How cynical is that?
On the other hand, my not becoming a Franciscan has probably allowed me, in some strange way, to find this place, so... mysterious ways, indeed.
And I did learn a lot from them, the 4 years I spent with them.

I must say that I was a bit angry at first that my safe haven, the Affected thread, was taken away from me (in my perception) and that I was kind of forced to move here.
But in the end, I think you're right to have a separate thread. Especially for "us people", it is so vitally important to feel safe, to feel understood, to feel comfortable - a place where we can be ourselves, where we are accepted, however bruised and battered we may be.

May this thread become that safe place.

Marc
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: desertrat on November 15, 2006, 02:13:52 AM
rob, from the very first moment i met you here and you started telling your story, i just wished to be a magician, turn time back and take care of you when you were a little boy. sure, it might be that those dreadful times also shaped you and made you the wonderful person you are now (another proof of the fact that jewels come out of the darkest places), but it would heva been so wonderful if we would have been able to spare you all the pain you had to go through. the first half of your life didn't give you lots of good things - i hope that the second half will only give you happiness.  :)
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: desertrat on November 15, 2006, 02:18:01 AM
reposted from the affected thread, nov 14th:

jackie - you did it ! that's so brave and i'm so proud of you. it would be so wonderful if just talking about it would make things better. and thinking about how many of us have been hurt - do all thsoe people who hurt us know what they did to us ? how they influenced the course of our lives into a certain direction ? i bet most of them didn't even give a thought to the damage they caused. wonderful sister, i'm so happy that you finally manage to be yourself. yes, the pain will still be here, and i'm happy that the nightmares fade - the most important is that you are able to leave it all in the past and look into a bright future. then you have won.

a big (((hug))) to you, sweet sister, love you !
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: desertrat on November 15, 2006, 02:25:07 AM
repost form the affected thread, nov. 14th:

jack, you indeed have said a lot of things to us in your post, at least to me.
first of all, as i feel for everybody else here who shared his/her story, i am so sorry that you had to go through this. as you said, you came from a loving and protecting family - and even they couldn't protect you from the abuse you had to endure. it is the one bitter thing for parents - they can't protect their children 24/7 and things simply happen.
what strikes me so hard is that obviously there is a certain kind of people who, even as children, will project everything that happens to themselves, thinking that it was their own fault. if i weren't queer, if i weren't a woman, if i weren't...whatever...- then this wouldn't have happened to me. it is all my own fault. this fatal kind of thinking drives us deeper and deeper into isolation until hopefully one day somebody is able and willing to reach oput a hand and help us out of the little prison we built for ourselves.
there are many things in your post that resounded deep in my own feelings. which made me hurt and feel a lot for you. one thing that especially cut deep was the mention of pleasure. in situations of repeated abuse, the victim very often develops ways of finding pleasure in the abuse. it is a bit like a stockholm syndrom. it makes the whole thing more bareable at the very moment that it happens. but it makes the times in between even worse because it adds to the feeling of guilt, to the feeling that one deserves what happens.

jack, i hope your future will be bright, it seems you are on the right way. of course you won't be able to forget, but i sure thing you're on the best way to put it behind you and look into a better future. the hurt will never go away, but i wish to you that it will fade. at least a bit.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: desertrat on November 15, 2006, 02:31:27 AM
reposted from the affected thread, nov. 13:

chuck, big hugs and compliments at how brave you were and still are ! how cruel even little kids can be, and how sad when they never grow out of it but simply go on bullying and harrassing people who are different from them. how sad and boring must the life of a person be if the need to pick on somebody to feel good  and worth something ? well, at the end, they are the losers.

but that doesn't change anything when you are at the receiving end of the bullying. listening to you today, chuck, it seems you are talking about a different person. i know that you very often pass over a sad moment, an insult, a hurt with a smile and a joke, for that is the strategy i am "using" as well, but still, you emanate so much positive attitude, so much optimism that i can only congratulate you and tell you how happy i am that you came out this sad past. it would be so sad if you would still sit at home, eating and accumulating depth...instead of being that wonderful, radiant person that you are now.

stay exactly that way, for that is the right answer to the bullies of the world: i won't let you bring me down !   ;)
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: desertrat on November 15, 2006, 02:38:05 AM
wow - i'm starting to fill a page  :-[ :-[ :-[

conny, i'm so sorry that you had to go through such things at such an early age. and that being your first experience with sex - that is really harsh. good that you were able to tell your friends and later on ask your parents and the police for help.
another aspect of the long-term problems is, as you mentioned, the reclusion of the sex life. as you said, i also had a year where i basically wasn't even able to let anybody touch me. only therapy helped me to get over it. thinking about your special case - how many minutes did this guy have "fun" ? (though i can't even imagine how it can be fun with a struggling girl right on the street...) and how much time did it cost you, how many years of pain ? it is simply unfair, such things shouldn't happen.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Jules on November 15, 2006, 02:47:51 AM
Repost from the Affected Me thread, November 14, 2006

I’ve been thinking of you, all of you, this weekend. I don’t know how to thank you for your concern, for your sweet and profound posts, your PMs, the love you showed me. Bless you, my friends, and bless this forum, that gives us the opportunity to share, vent, analyze, and maybe grow up. And a special thank you to the really brave people who first posted their personal stories with us at the very beginning...they did it on their own, with their own strength; thanks to those people we all began to feel safe enough to carry on telling our stories here, gathering courage post after post.

After the rape I thought that it would have been better if I died. I could have yelled for help and they would have killed me and everything would have been over. But I guess my instinct of self-preservation shut my mouth, and I let them do what they wanted to, to my body, to my soul, to my life. I don’t feel brave. Had I been brave, I would have gone to the hospital, told my parents and everybody, faced a trial, maybe kept the baby. But I did what I do the best, which is hide, keep silent, never share, never let anybody know who I really am. But I have been loved and I’ve been able to love, though in my own particular way, despite what I went through, and I have to thank also 9 years of psychoanalysis (which I started for a different kind of problem that was ruining my life besides the rape). What I haven’t been able to do is keep those people’s love alive and I only have to blame myself for that: there’s a black hole in my soul which prevents me from being happy, and I have no right to impose my incapability to rejoice at life to anyone. That hole doesn’t trace back to that night only, anyway.

I will never forgive those two bastards, and I probably wouldn’t even if I was religious, there’s no excuse for what they done to me. But if I’m right and they were junkies, they had and probably still have their own demons to face.

There’s one thing I’m very happy about: that some of you felt ready to share your own stories after mine. Know that my heart goes out to you Glenn, Conny, Brad, Chuck, Vincent, Martina, Asianboy...and to those who I’m sure will follow.

This place is a miracle.

Thank you again, folks (((((GROUPHUG)))))

Catia

Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: desertrat on November 15, 2006, 02:57:22 AM
another opportunity for a repost - nov. 14:

thanks for the hug, catia !  :-* :-*

and don't you ever say you are not brave - because as you said, you could have ended it there. you didn't. you chose to live, and that is very brave. of course in backsight it would probably have been better if you had somebody to confide in, but for many reasons, i 'm sure of that, you kept this with you as a secret. but it hasn't broken you or your spirit. i don't know what you would call that, i'd call it brave.
and, you are a lot braver than me - i can't get around to tell my whole story here. for various reasons. so you are the brave one here.

i just hope so much the black hole in your heart will close over time or that you will be able to find the measures to make it close. you should be happy and enjoy your life. you have so much love to give and you are loved by so many people. this love should be able to penetrate to your deepest core, not be swallowed by the black emptiness.
i hope you'll find a way. if i can help - please let me know.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: michaelflanagansf on November 15, 2006, 03:27:06 AM
repost of part of a post from August 27, 2006

Yes Joe.  I'm an abuse survivor and relate a lot to the things Nellie talked about (I've know I was gay since I was abused at age 9 - and my mother knew and put me in 'Catholic therapy' when I was 14 - and trust me, I was called a lot of names growing up and fought a lot too).  Having been sexualized by a brutal group of rural guys I never 'clicked' sexually or romantically with urban gay men, even though I much prefer city life (for obvious reasons, having been abused in the country).

*******

Okay, I'll expand on that some here.  Starting when I was 8 or 9 and going on for a few years I was abused by a group of boys on my school bus.  These guys were all brothers and the abuse started out as roughhousing, but then it got sexual - and though I would move away from them they would keep trying - it rough and physical and horrid.  In retrospect I wonder why the bus driver didn't do anything - but this was a rural busroute and there were always fights going on.  Unless something really big happened he wouldn't stop the bus.  I suspect that other things were going on with the driver (perhaps deafness - perhaps alcoholism...I can't be sure now).

They would not leave me alone, no matter where I went on the bus - the only place that was safe for me were the very front seats.  My brother (who is 4 years older than me) blamed me.  I'll never forget his telling me that if I didn't tell my mother that he would.  And I'll never forget her response - she said 'What do you want me to do about it?' - as if it were just some fight on the bus.

Eventually I fought these guys off (tooth and nail, literally) so that they finally left me along - but it took a while.

Of course one of the terrible conflicting things about it was that it was during this period that I realized that I was gay - and I couldn't figure out if the abuse was somehow my fault.

What always surprised me was that the abuse didn't seem to be a big deal to my mother, but a few years later when  I acted out on my gay feelings my mother freaked out and took me in to the priest.  I finally came to feel that she didn't understand the extent of what was going on regarding the abuse and that I was to ashamed and embarassed to make an issue of it - or perhaps even to fully explain it to her (of course I was a child and didn't really know what to say about it).

The person who was my main abuser died years later in prison - knifed in a shower.  I'm pretty sure that he had been abused by his brothers so I don't feel any sort of vindictive pleasure at this - all I feel is sad about the whole awful situation.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: conny on November 15, 2006, 05:10:01 AM
wow - i'm starting to fill a page  :-[ :-[ :-[

conny, i'm so sorry that you had to go through such things at such an early age. and that being your first experience with sex - that is really harsh. good that you were able to tell your friends and later on ask your parents and the police for help.
another aspect of the long-term problems is, as you mentioned, the reclusion of the sex life. as you said, i also had a year where i basically wasn't even able to let anybody touch me. only therapy helped me to get over it. thinking about your special case - how many minutes did this guy have "fun" ? (though i can't even imagine how it can be fun with a struggling girl right on the street...) and how much time did it cost you, how many years of pain ? it is simply unfair, such things shouldn't happen.

thanks martina
I didn`t tell my mom and dad myself,they found out,cause that guy kept harassing me on the phone,i told my best friends,and when my mom asked around she found out.I dont recall anymore what happend,or what they said,only that the phone was tapped,to find out his number and adress.
i don`t know how long it lasted,time didn`t exist anymore,and it costed me till last year to get over it.I burried it in me,ended up at the point i didn`t care what people did to me.later i made jokes, about it,that i just as well could have go on and work as a prostitute,cause that way i could have made some money with it.
 much more abuse happened after this.
my second husband was an alcoholic and gambling addict,and when he was drunk he was a totally different person, and made me feel scared in my own house.
In the beginning he didn`t hit me,but he almost destroyed me mentaly,and i think that was even worse.i could handle the fysical beats every once and a while and that he smashed things trough the house.
But from the time he supposed to be home i sat there trembling like a leaf,not knowing in what state he would come home.i just made sure his dinner was ready,give him another beer,and hope he would fell asleep after that,and lucky for me lots of the time that worked.and then i had peace for a couple fof hours. When my dogs crawled under the bed when they heard him coming home and they sat next to me,shivering and puking from fear and he hit me against the head,i knew it was time to stand up for myself. I took a lawer and got rid of him,and even the last thing he did was trowing the kettle to me when i said it was mine!! Never ever i`ve been so relieved to have my house for myself again!
He still lives in  this town,but about 8 years after our divorce i had a talk with him.befor that i always was afraid whenever i saw him.But then i told him how i felt that year(i wasn`t with him that long,luyckily) and i could say what i wanted to say and he even appologized. And i haven`t forgiven him,but i wasn`t afraid of him after that anymore.
And in the end it was good for me,cause after that i had some help from my vet off all people,who was very spiritual and could feel a lot of things around and about me and then finally could admit to myself that i was a lesbian and went in special therapy.
But i really would have loved that that had happend another way.

i was thinking,it is so hard to know that the places and people you trust like your home,the church,parents,family,husband/wife,friends are the ones who ended up hurting us the most!!

My therapist asked me at some of my last sessions if i hated menn? And i could clearly say NO,you know they are not all like that,there are good menn too,but i must say i never trust them completely,apart from gay menn then  ;)
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: conny on November 15, 2006, 05:31:18 AM
Rob and jimmy,jack
thanks for sharing,it means a lot,don`t know exactly why,and am a bit too numb right now to think or give proper reaction.
But i`m so happy for you that each of you have grown out till this strong,beautiful and loving menn  :-*
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: CellarDweller115 on November 15, 2006, 05:35:32 AM
I'm glad that we didn't lose the momentum that was in the "affected" thread, and glad to see that more people have stepped forward with stories to share.

Please let this continue.  Releasing this from yourselves is healing, and could encourage others to finally relieve themselves of a burden in their own heart.

Even if they choose not to post, our posts are being read by others, and they are seeing they are not alone, there are many others who have been abused in the past, and they are moving on, and surviving, and they can too.

Knowing that many of us have this similar experience makes me feel closer to you all.  I'm honored to have met you, and for those who I haven't met, I hope to do so in the future!
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: conny on November 15, 2006, 05:36:30 AM
reposted from the affected

Quote from: Boris on November 12, 2006, 09:24:35 AM


In a same way the things we have been going through have killed or injured the dreams we had. After experiences like those shared, it becomes harder to dream, it becomes harder to believe that they may happen, it becomes difficult to trust. For me it meant that I didn't believe that anyone could love me. Because that dream was gradually maimed and almost killed when I was young. I think that the question is not only about survival, or forgiveness or moving on. It is about daring to dream again, daring to trust, daring to live again. I never believed that dreams can heal but now I do.

I genuinely do believe that when we share our life stories and experiences, when they are written or spoken aloud they lose their power to define us. Whatever they are.



wow Jari
this adds so to my thoughts and feelings i had today,and i too watched BBM this afternoon(.haven`t watched it till texas,when i saw it with jimmy and fritz at linda`s place.)
i always have had bad relationships,with abuse,rape,lots of alcohol/drugs/gambling or betrayal and manipulation,and that was with men and women.and all of that destroyed all my dreams,never could trust anybody for 100% again ,not even my closest friends(but one).
And thats why i closed up for the last 10 years,i didn`t let anyone in,i first wanted to know why this kept happening to me,and i wanted to be happy with myself for 100%,before i knew i could ever love or trust someone else again.

already told here that watching BBM had major impact,and made me realise what i had to do,and how i had to change my life ,so that i could really heal again. and along the way i felt well maybe i can trust again,and could feel i was maybe ready to love again.
i never believed that much in go searching for that special person,i`d rather just meet her one day,but i did became a member of a lesbian site(not only dating) overhere,and did get in contact with someone,but also found out this wasn`t me.

meanwhile i have grown very close with someone from here,we became friends and now we can speak of a growing love.
it won`t be easy,cause of the distance for one,and it hit me very hard.
it`s like some other member told me(thanks  ) Don't be afraid to let your emotions run loose for awhile, you've been walled up for so long it's bound to seem uncontrollable but like a dam bursting, the waters will settle down after the initial blast. Let them run, feel the emotions, good and 'bad', it's the awakening of 'feeling' that's most important, too. Feel all those emotions, they will settle into their places. It's OK to feel the hurt, it's part of being 'alive'.

And that`s so true,the most imporant part is that i can feel love again,that i can dream again,and have something to look forward too!
and the rest will fall into place once we get there!!
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Nick_F on November 15, 2006, 05:57:13 AM
I'm glad that we didn't lose the momentum that was in the "affected" thread, and glad to see that more people have stepped forward with stories to share.

Please let this continue.  Releasing this from yourselves is healing, and could encourage others to finally relieve themselves of a burden in their own heart.

Even if they choose not to post, our posts are being read by others, and they are seeing they are not alone, there are many others who have been abused in the past, and they are moving on, and surviving, and they can too.

Knowing that many of us have this similar experience makes me feel closer to you all.  I'm honored to have met you, and for those who I haven't met, I hope to do so in the future!

Chuck, thanks for this. I am a moderator of this thread and felt that I should post something supportive, but have not been able to find any words.

This is what I wanted to and should have said.

Nxx
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: ImEnnisShesJack on November 15, 2006, 06:25:12 AM
Nick,

do not beat yourself up for not finding the "right" words to kick off this thread.  This is not an easy subject to talk about.  Especially with all the social taboos and rules and issues surrounding sex and sexuality.

I was lucky enough not to suffer physical or sexual abuse at the hands of any of my relatives.  I was the victim of date rape when I was 17 and a freshman in college - inexperienced both sexually and with the ways of alcohol.  Funny thing - when you date someone, you trust them implicitly with your life - especially in that naive 17yr old way.  I always blamed myself because I was rip-roaring drunk that night.  But then realized later that drunk and silly is one thing, but passed out cold and not even able to voice your wishes is another.  Oh yeah, rather than try to coerce me while I was feeble drunk and giggly, he waited until I had passed out - all the while still pouring beer down my throat.  Unconscious, I didn't have a voice.  I couldn't say "NO!"  I'm sure in his head that it wasn't rape since I didn't say no.  He had some weird issues - took off every single piece of my jewelry - anything that would identify me.  I had to send my friend back to get it all.  I don't know if he beat me or not - but I was bruised heavily all over my body.  The bruises came to the surface 2-3 days after that night.  I never saw him again after that - not even on campus.  I think he knew that what he'd done was wrong.  And I knew what I'd done was stupidly irresponsible. 

I blame myself only for not being more careful with myself and my life.  The rape was the least of it.  As drunk as I was, I was at risk of alcohol poisoning.  I could have stopped breathing from brain-stem compression.  I could have choked on my own vomit in my sleep.  That was irresponsible and dangerous and stupid and brainless.  That doesn't make what he did to me okay in any way shape or form.  And don't get me wrong, I do not cut him any slack b'c of my own stupidity.  What he did was heinously wrong.  But I should have NEVER let myself get that dangerously drunk.  Ever.  I lost my own ability to say, "NO!" 

Healing from that has taken me years.  I had to forgive myself for my stupidity.  And I had to forget that somebody took from me the one thing that was mine to give (and if he'd asked, I'd have probably given it up anyway...).  As for forgiving him?  Never.  He can rot in the bowels of hell as far as I'm concerned.  I hope his life has been a string of miserable failures and continues to be so.  I hope he dies of some wasting festering disease.  And while those statements may seem really bile-filled, I actually can say/type them with no malice whatsoever.  I just say them as fact now.

Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: ImEnnisShesJack on November 15, 2006, 07:16:14 AM
NellieBelle,

Have you ever thought of going to a therapist?  You've shared many stories over these past months that seem to hint at or around something deeper that you just can't quite grasp...maybe you need a session of regression therapy.  Or just to talk about all this tumult inside your head and heart.  Maybe there's a reason WHY this place and the vibe in here resonates within you?

You seem pained sometimes - and lost.  We can suport you every day, but maybe find direction via a doctor.

xoxo
H.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: conny on November 15, 2006, 07:43:59 AM
nells,i agree with Ho!
as for hypnotherapy,it can help and you can bring things to the surface,but Hon,you need to be really sure you can handle it!!
And be sure you got someone with you afterwards,which i didn`t and still regret.
Cause when you go away after a  rough  2 hour crying session,you really need a shoulder. luckily i had my dogs and the sea,but that wasn`t the same.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: melissasjack on November 15, 2006, 08:37:31 AM
REPOSTED from the affected me thread:

For JACKIE:
Oh my sweetest mama....what can I say in the face of your bravery? Thank you for sharing this with us all and I love you and I am so damn happy you finally felt able to rid yourself of this burden and share it amongst us all.
Knowing you is like being blessed...I can only offer you all my love and all my understanding...which I give freely.
As Jari said...your words, "well, I won't"...well, my mama, my love, now you can, you will, you can move forward into the arms of the hundresds of us who love you, adore you, who have been changed and become better people because of you.
Loving you with all my heart,
your daughter,
Melissa

For Chuckie:
The sweetest hugs to you, my lovely friend Chuck.
From the first time I met you, I thought you were one of the most special, amazing, wonderful men I had been lucky enought o know.
What a gift to our world you are.
Many hugs and much love from your friend,
melissa

For Catia and Glenn:
Sending all the love, understanding, and good wishes to my dear sweet friends, Catia and Glenn.
Two of the most beautiful, brave folks I have been lucky and blessed enough to know.
I understand so much more than I will probably ever be able to post here, and let me just tell you I am bowled over by your bravery.
Times heals, friends heal, and the love and acceptance we have all found here is for forever.
All my love.....
(((((((Glenn and Catia))))))

For sweet Catia:
Catia, love, I'm on my way out the door right now.
All I can say is thank you for being the strong beautiful damn courageous lady you are.
Thank you for sharing this with us and I love you with all my heart and soul.
You make this world, that can be so scary and mean, a safe beautiful place for many people. You enrich our world and all of us everyday just by being you.
Love you, friend of my heart.

*am playing catch up on the rest of the thread so more love comin' later* xo
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: melissasjack on November 15, 2006, 08:49:10 AM
Thanks for listening and as I am sure with all of you, it is extremely, extremely hard for me to hit the post button, but if you are reading this, I did. I take my strength from all of you.

Linda

Thank you my strong beautiful Linda for finding the strength and the courage to post this here.....
I offer you all my love and understanding and if I could I would wrap you up in the worlds biggest hug.
You are a remarkable woman.
One day I hope to be as brave as you, love...as all y'all here.
Until that day, know that I am in awe of you and your bravery.
((((((((Linda)))))))))
so so much love,
Melissa
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Brokeback_1 on November 15, 2006, 09:12:31 AM
I didn't read past ypur post, gnash, I'm on my way up to Wyomin.
I have to say one thing to you: I'm glad you cried when you cut up your underwear. I cried and made myself stop almost as soon as it started when i was getting extra blood on MINE to hide it from my mother..Why? I told myself there was no reason to cry, I was being a kid, it was no big deal and I must deserve it or it wouldn't have happened in the first place..

I can't bel;ieve what we have all been through. Even when you do deal with it, even when it's actually over within you, when you think of it it makes your blood cold. Back tonight, from Das Laptop
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: michaelflanagansf on November 15, 2006, 10:11:14 AM
A few additional thoughts:

Connie, one of my sisters was in an abusive marriage.  I'm so sorry you had to go through this - I witnessed the horror firsthand as I stayed with her for a while late in this marriage.  She has escaped and is safe now - and I'm so glad she is, as I am glad you are.  I remain convinced that abuse, whether physical, emotional or financial all comes from the same need to control (and hurt) other people.

Catia and Ho - your stories reminded me of a woman friend of mine in high school.  She had a 'boyfriend' who left her when she got pregnant.  It was very typical of the sort of thing I saw my women friends go through then.  I drove her to the airport so that she could get to New York to get her abortion.  It was a sad time (that she had to jump through hoops to do this).  Now this wasn't rape in her case, as it was in both of your cases - but it was still abusive, and the memory of it has hung with me for years.

Jimmy - after my experiences on the bus I 'acted out' during my teen years.  One of the ways I did that was to hitchhike.  I had lots of creepy experiences, but none of them went to the level of the horror you experienced.  My thoughts are with you.

Jackie, I'm struck that so much of this sort of thing happened to us so early in our lives.  For me, that it happened and nothing was done, and then that I was made the 'bad guy' when I was taken to the priest soured me on Catholicism early on.

Chuck - aside from the sexual abuse I had to put up with physical abuse through about age 15.  Part of this had to do with being seen as 'intellectual' in an area that did not value that.  I remember being grabbed by a group of older boys who formed a circle around me and picked me up and threw me between them - grabbing handfuls of me as they did this.  I got to the point of where I would run from abusers on a dime - and I also started fighting back.  They told me I fought like a girl - I told them that as long as it stopped them I didn't care what they thought.

I don't know where my feelings toward my main abuser came from - I just saw him as a really screwed up person, and like I said, the victim of abuse on his own.  And I'm sorry (for him) that his life turned out so awful.

I told Linda in a P.M. that recounting much of this makes me feel numb - so if this seems at all disjointed my apologies.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: michaelflanagansf on November 15, 2006, 10:23:16 AM
One other thought - a lot of my anger at so-called masculine men comes from the stigmatization and abuse I felt at there hand since in was a child.  I can remember being called 'fag' and 'queer' in school from about the time I was 12 or so on.  And often I was attacked because of it - and this was by big strong farmboys who spent time pitching bales of hay.

I pretty much had to learn how to stop them in their tracks early on.  I did.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: killersmom on November 15, 2006, 02:11:57 PM
Once again the bravery and honesty that I see here boggles my mind and allows me to see that we all have our histories and our stories to live with and relate to and that have in some way or other colored how our lives have turned out.

Thanks again so much for all your sharing.

Gnash.....you are so special to me for always. I am blessed to know you and count you as my best friend.

Michael, you have shared much of yourself with me and you continue to amaze me, you are so special.

Conny, you are a very special lady to me, thank you.

Chuck, as always you are a light to me and inspire me daily.

To all who have shared here, thank you for helping me see the way.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: melissasjack on November 15, 2006, 02:25:09 PM
One other thought - a lot of my anger at so-called masculine men comes from the stigmatization and abuse I felt at there hand since in was a child.  I can remember being called 'fag' and 'queer' in school from about the time I was 12 or so on.  And often I was attacked because of it - and this was by big strong farmboys who spent time pitching bales of hay.

I pretty much had to learn how to stop them in their tracks early on.  I did.
One thing, Michael....I want you to know that if our world was lucky enough to be blessed with more men like you, it would be a happy safe wondrous place all over.
In my humble opinion, I think you are an amazing man....masculine and wonderful and everything good.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: john john on November 15, 2006, 03:49:23 PM
I remember being bashed by three men on the street with onlookers walking by, that my first thought after it was over was that these onlookers didn't help me. I walked home humiliated, bloody and limping as people looked on.
In stead of crying over my wounds I was crying over how indifferent people can be.

I have made peace with those men, the onlookers I still hate.



Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: michaelflanagansf on November 15, 2006, 03:52:30 PM
One thing, Michael....I want you to know that if our world was lucky enough to be blessed with more men like you, it would be a happy safe wondrous place all over.
In my humble opinion, I think you are an amazing man....masculine and wonderful and everything good.

Thanks angel - that means a lot.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: michaelflanagansf on November 15, 2006, 03:59:33 PM
I remember being bashed by three men on the street with onlookers walking by, that my first thought after it was over was that these onlookers didn't help me. I walked home humiliated, bloody and limping as people looked on.
In stead of crying over my wounds I was crying over how indifferent people can be.

I have made peace with those men, the onlookers I still hate.

I really understand this John John.  One of the incomprehensible things to me what that while I was being abused there were kids watching it who said nothing about it.  You can make excuses and say 'they were just kids', but in a way it makes them part of the abuse - I think it's the same thing with bashers - it's like you had it done over and over by each onlooker.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: TwistsBitch on November 15, 2006, 04:25:01 PM
I remember being bashed by three men on the street with onlookers walking by, that my first thought after it was over was that these onlookers didn't help me. I walked home humiliated, bloody and limping as people looked on.
In stead of crying over my wounds I was crying over how indifferent people can be.

I have made peace with those men, the onlookers I still hate.

I don't want to live in a world where that happens, supposedly in the most advanced societies, & I don't want to bring children into such a world.  What if it were their brother or their son who had been attacked?  Some would still even turn a blind eye & think they deserved it.   Shame on them.

& ((( john john )))
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: john john on November 15, 2006, 09:09:39 PM
I really understand this John John.  One of the incomprehensible things to me what that while I was being abused there were kids watching it who said nothing about it.  You can make excuses and say 'they were just kids', but in a way it makes them part of the abuse - I think it's the same thing with bashers - it's like you had it done over and over by each onlooker.

You're so right, that's exactly how I felt. I keep wondering how I'd react if I were to witness this, I can't believe I'd ignore it.

I must say these men were really big and tall and, I'm sorry to say, very black.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: john john on November 15, 2006, 09:13:45 PM
I don't want to live in a world where that happens, supposedly in the most advanced societies, & I don't want to bring children into such a world.  What if it were their brother or their son who had been attacked?  Some would still even turn a blind eye & think they deserved it.   Shame on them.

& ((( john john )))

Thanks TwistsBitch, I'm afraid this place is not an ideal world, it's up to us all to try, with small compassionte gestures, to make it better.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: gnash on November 16, 2006, 01:50:54 PM
I didn't read past ypur post, gnash, I'm on my way up to Wyomin.
I have to say one thing to you: I'm glad you cried when you cut up your underwear. I cried and made myself stop almost as soon as it started when i was getting extra blood on MINE to hide it from my mother..Why? I told myself there was no reason to cry, I was being a kid, it was no big deal and I must deserve it or it wouldn't have happened in the first place..

I can't bel;ieve what we have all been through. Even when you do deal with it, even when it's actually over within you, when you think of it it makes your blood cold. Back tonight, from Das Laptop

it was your post that really hit me, because of the similarity. however, my crying was stifled because i couldn't wake up my family, so it was sort of held back. more sobs and this gesture of "i can do this."  i felt like you, no reason to cry, no big deal. just "one more thing" encountered, it seemed, and the rape really does pale in comparison to years of abuse at home. my sister, being three years older, was also pretty abusive to me. there was resentment towards me from the beginning -- i think when i was born there was the attention shift towards me and it really hit her hard. and of course she also was beaten by dad so.... it was basically a mess.

michael, the weird thing is i never hitchhiked, my thumb wasn't out but i was alone at the bus stop and i guess this guy looked for things like that. i alredy knew about the dangers of hitchhiking, i'd been warned. but he seemed so "normal" and i was tired of waiting for the bus. needless to say, i was more careful after that.

nell, there is something to be said about the wondering. i know a woman who saw a tv commercial or saw a candy wrapper or something, and it unlocked a whole lost part of her childhood. she confronted her grandfather, who apologized in his old age and was terrified that she would "spill the beans" so what she felt she remembered was true, and of course then she was left to wonder about all the times her own daughter spent visiting the grandparents.

speaking of "onlookers", apparently the girl's grandmother actually knew this was occuring, but said nothing about it! altho she did do what she could to curtial it, she was not able to "out" her husband. i guess shame sometimes surpasses rationality. had i known my father could go to jail for his actions, i'd have gone to the police in a second, but as it was, as a kid, it just seemed normal. i  had friends who were also beaten.   remember those spouse abuse commercials in the 90's, especially the one where the little 3 or 4 year old kid is on the stairs listening to his mother being beaten? the shadows he saw of fists in the air? really shook me up. ugh. my mother knew what was going on, but she was as powerless as a toddler, because he would threaten her with the same.

i think we need more commercials like that... maybe they are still being aired, i don't have TV.

what amazes me is how often this sort of thing occurs and how often secrets are kept. and the blocking out of negative experiences. i don't know anything about hypnotism or regression therapy and all that but... who knows. i'm sure the mind does it for a reason.

michael, i left oakland because of the guns stuck to my head... the guy that tried to rape me didn't have a gun, but yeah. and losing friends to stupid petty thefts gone awry... i had to get out. i was mugged like 3 times up there. also fagbashing, on the bus by HS students of all things, this on the 51M on broadway... oakland tech, when it reopened, was a pain in the ass for many during college. imagine a college girl, my roomate, being cornered and felt up on a bus by three or four high school students. sheez. like antoine merriweather says,, "HATED IT!"
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: desertrat on November 16, 2006, 03:40:15 PM
Finally, after days of pondering and arguing back and forth, i decided to get out of my little trailer and post my story here. It didn't take me so long because my story is so horrible, it's the opposite.  I was afraid how it would be received. That the only logical answer to my story is that this was my own fault, that i should simply have left the guy. So, please, be kind on me, this time of my live was hell for me, even though it is pathetic compared to what many of you had to go through.
A second reason why this is so hard for me to bring out to the open is because it will contradict many things you might think about me. The person i am talking about sounds like another person. Partly it is, because my life, my whole personality changed so much afterwards. But still, i'm opening a part of me here that i usually am very reluctant to open. The one part that doesn't smile all the time.

I think i should start a bit earlier in my life because only that way, you might be able to understand how things came the way they did. All my life, i suffered from non-existing self confidence. I didn't need to be exluded by the other kids (in fact, i never have been. I got along very well with everybody- on the outside); i did this all by myself. Very thoroughly, i might add. I always felt „different“, never felt like belonging anywhere. I was too ugly, too unlovable, too fat, too uninteresting,....and 1000 other reasons why i was sure that nobody would like me and i basically just get on people's nerves. A character trait i can't even today fully shake away. On a bad day, i am able to convince myself very well that i don't deserve anyone's friendship and therefore nobody likes me.
At the same time, to the outside, i was similar to today – pleasant, smiling, a good kid. Inside, i was dying. When i was about 16, i came up with this glorious plan: if i would lose weight, would become really pretty, people would fianally love me. maybe even i would love me. One year later, looking like a skeleton, i had to give up those plans. I was a full-blown anorectic with an insane sports regimen and a food allowance of an apple and a bit of diet bread with cucumber per day. After some shocking realizations about my health condition, i luckily managed to start eating again. The year afterwards was hard, but at the end i gained weight again. It didn't solve my self esteem issues though.

I was 18 when the nightmare started. My first boyfriend had just dumped me and i thought i'd stay alone for the rest of my life. Then i found a new group of friends, he was part of it. For the first two or three months, everything was ok, then i more or less moved in with him. From then on, things went downhill. I never got my own key to the apartment and of course he made the rules. Ever-changing rules, i must add. Disobeying the rules resulted in injuries. He didn't beat me, rather twisted my arms, jammed them somewhere, banged me against things,....i had constant injuries. But that wasn't the worst. The worst was the psychological abuse. From day one, he started working on my self esteem. Basically told me that nobody liked me. Found examples everywhere to prove that all our friends only accepted me because i was with him. The relationship with my family went downhill because they saw what happened and of course wanted me to leave him. I wanted to stay with him. At the end, i had nobody - besides him. I was utterly alone.
The thing that made the most harm was what i today, finally, will call rape. I didn't want sex any more after a while. No way to be that close to a person that hurts you so much. He threatened to spend the night with another girl, one i knew had a thing for him. I did what he wanted. Over and over again. For months. Got numb.

I won't bore you with all the small and big things here, the neglect and hurt i suffered, the loneliness and desperation. I wanted to leave him. But what was i to do ? I had nobody left, nobody liked me, i was a worthless. It was staying with him, who, good as he was, would take up with an utterly useless person like me, or stay alone forever.
After a year, he kicked me out. Said he had no use for me any more. My world broke down. I started hurting myself, wanting to die. I acted insane. Finally, my mother got me a therapist. It took two therapies and the almost angelic patience of the wonderful man i'm sharing my life with now to get my life back on track. And some more years to make my life the way it is and make ME the person i am now. I wouldn't be who i am now without these experiences.  Maybe i am so grateful for everything i have now BECAUSE of what's behind me. And, through all of this, i was forced to deal with myself and my issues. I might be one of those people where „what doesn't kill you makes you stronger“ applies. I could have done without this experience, but maybe then i would be a moderately self-confident woman - the therapy forced me to work on my issues. I guess i'm a rather strong woman now. Because i promised myself that i would NEVER let anybody treat me that way again.

And now this little ennis here even managed to get out of her trailer and show you who she really is. ..

this post got MUCH to long. i edited and re-edited it for days. i apologize. wish i could say more with less words....
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: BrokenOkie on November 16, 2006, 04:09:29 PM
<moved from 'Affected' - originally posted:  11/14/06>


Quote from: gattaca on November 12, 2006, 11:28:40 AM
......Eventually, I found it my soul to forgive him - had to -  but it is never easy to discuss these things for those that live'm - even 20 years later.   



To all our members, you have given me the courage to share this hoping it may help someone else, the guys especially, (not meant as ANY offense to our ladies here), so others understand that rape can and does happen to men - many more than will ever admit.
Vincent

----------------------------------------

Vincent....thanks for opening your heart and posting.  You're so right that it's difficult to discuss what was inflicted upon us. 

I've avoided posting in this thread the past couple of days, but I've been reading and am deeply moved by the understanding and loving compassion of the wonderful people here.  And I'm very proud of all who have bravely shared their experiences.  Please consider yourselves thanked and hugged.  Each of you have helped more than could be put into words.

Glenn     
 
 
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: BrokenOkie on November 16, 2006, 04:11:09 PM
<post moved from 'Affected' thread - originally posted 11/14/06>

Quote from: CellarDweller115 on November 12, 2006, 04:05:28 PM
It's my life to live, and I'm not going to run and hide or deny myself anymore.  Tire iron be damned.

-----------------------------

Very proud of you (((Chuck))), for your post and for being the person you are. 
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: fritzkep on November 16, 2006, 04:14:22 PM
Oh, Martina, please read my PM as soon as you get a chance.

Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: melissasjack on November 16, 2006, 04:23:29 PM
Hey Beautiful Martina?
Thank you for sharing this...I am so so glad for you that you felt safe enough to post this...and I am so happy for you that you like who you are now....
I have always, mainly from afar, seen you as a beautiful, strong, amazing woman....
someone to admire.
Offering you many hugs, much understanding, and a good bit of AWE at how awesome you are.
One day, I swear I will be brave enough to do the same.
((((((martina)))))))
hugs from,
melissa
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: melissasjack on November 16, 2006, 05:05:03 PM
Martina?
If you could be this brave, I had to get myself to do it too.
Thank you, girl.

http://davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=101.msg589608#msg589608
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: CellarDweller115 on November 16, 2006, 05:49:30 PM
Martina and Melissa, thank you for joining us, and finding the courage to post your stories.

You are both beautiful and wonder women. 

Thank you for being here!
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: paintedshoes on November 16, 2006, 07:19:17 PM
Finally, after days of pondering and arguing back and forth, i decided to get out of my little trailer and post my story here. It didn't take me so long because my story is so horrible, it's the opposite.  I was afraid how it would be received. That the only logical answer to my story is that this was my own fault, that i should simply have left the guy. So, please, be kind on me, this time of my live was hell for me, even though it is pathetic compared to what many of you had to go through.
A second reason why this is so hard for me to bring out to the open is because it will contradict many things you might think about me. The person i am talking about sounds like another person. Partly it is, because my life, my whole personality changed so much afterwards. But still, i'm opening a part of me here that i usually am very reluctant to open. The one part that doesn't smile all the time.

Dearest Martina,

I hope that by posting your story that you will be able to let it go, completely.  It breaks my heart that you suffered so, but, please dear sister, never think that ANYONE would think less of you.You were a victim of abuse as surely as anyone here.  Your story is NOT pathetic, it is a story of pain and violence against you.  I am humbled by the strength that you used to overcome the abuse you suffered, and it makes me proud to know the woman you are today.  And what a woman you are.  Thank you for being willing to share this with us.  Bless you, always.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: conny on November 16, 2006, 09:31:49 PM
Martine sweety,thanks for sharing your story and you need to know one thing,this wasn`t your fault!!!!
You did`n`t ask for the abuse did you,or for the psychological abuse(which happened to me too and i know how bad that can get!!!) you didn`t ask for the manipulation.
The only thing you wanted was love and to be loved,and sometimes we end with people who,one way or another can`t give that to us.
As with me,i`m glad all the damage and what happened had a good outcome,made you wanna fight and wanna start over again.
You are a beautiful strong woman,who is loved and gives so much love and is caring!!
(((Hugs))) and love
conny
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: BrokenOkie on November 16, 2006, 11:17:35 PM
Reading each person's story here has struck me in many ways.   I'm outraged that any one of us has had to endure the physical and emotional pain, the torture, and the anguish of being abused, raped or beaten in any manner.  Sharing these closely-held secrets openly is certainly not easy, as so many have said. 

Warm, gentle hugs to each of you for sharing, for caring and being the amazing individuals each and every one of you are.

Surviving = Conquering   

     
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: michaelflanagansf on November 16, 2006, 11:53:35 PM
Martina and Melissa - thank you very much for trusting us.

Martina - people who work on our self-esteem can often be the most abusive.  I've known a few in my life and I fought hard to get away from them.  I'll write more about this later - it's too late tonight to get started.

Precious Melissa - what can I say but that I am so very, very sorry that you had to deal with that horror.  Although I have lived with people who have been abusive to me in the past (it's the same story I'm talking about above) I cannot imagine having to deal with the horror your have written about.  I am really touched by your strength.

Much love to you both,

Michael
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Brokeback_1 on November 17, 2006, 12:26:08 AM
HEIDI.....I love you Heidi. Why is it that the nicest people are the ones the freaks find, the ones they do their best to wreck...

You won. He failed.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Brokeback_1 on November 17, 2006, 12:26:53 AM
And Martine, once again: people look at you for one reason. You are beautiful.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: ChrisW on November 17, 2006, 01:44:39 AM
(http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h253/montezumae_2006/redrose.jpg) - I would like to be able to give all of you flowers and a big hug, it's pretty overwhelming reading.
You courageous and beautiful people, it's wonderful to see how you are supporting each other through the nightmare of reliving these private horrors.
love Chris
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: desertrat on November 17, 2006, 02:42:14 AM
a big thanks to all of you for your compassionate posts. i'm still a bit shaky, but i think it defintely was a good thing to talk about it. what i hate most about the whole dredging up of this story that i start feeling like a victim again - something i definitely don't want. sure, i know meanwhile that none of this was my own fault (well, apart maybe from staying with him  :-\). but i don't want to retreat into self-pity and despair. the important thing to me is that this episode of my life has opened many doors, has forced me to work on issues i would otherwise have kept buried probably forever. it doesn't justify what he did to me, and as i said before, at best i am able right now to feel indifference towards him. but i'm not mad at life/ fate/ the universe any more for doing this to me because it allowed me becomeing another, new person. of course, not every day is good. i'd say about 2/3 of the days are fine now, and my smile is genuine. 1/3 of the days - those are the days i'm still working on  ;)

melissa, when you first posted a small post about your ex-husband (i think it was on the women's thread), this was about what i expected. i can understand you so well (and i feel so lucky that i never got pregnant...). a big hug and congratulations for bringing up the courage to post all of this.
here's a couple of thoughts that i had to work through after the dark times of my life, and i think they apply to you as well - i hope they can help you...

one of the reasons why i never came out with my story is that i had this idea, the notion, that domestic violence is something that only happens to stupid, badly educated women who are dependend on their husbands. i think you, melissa, and i are the proof that this is not true. i was in the process of earning my first university degree when all of this happened and nowadays, i know that this even made things worse - he felt inferior to me (he only had basic eduvcation) and therefore felt the need to put me down wherever possible.

and one other thing, not only to you, melissa, but to everybody here who has endured abuse and has, resulting form that, or even had already before, self esteem issues: the absolutely BEST thing you can do for yourself is go and get some therapy. if you would have told me that before i would have laughed it off, would have said that i am not nuts and certainly not weak and pathetic enough to need this. but then, when i had to do it, it made the world's difference to me. after a good "basic start" with therapy, i also started reading - there are many good books out there. with many good exercises (yes, that's lots of work, but it's worth it !). take that chance, what can you lose ?

oh, and just one last little thing: melissa, don't despair over men. there are many good ones out there. and you deserve only the best. i'm living in a relationship for 10 years now and i managed (maybe not always right from the beginning but at least halfway through  ;)) to not fall into the old patterns of abuse and submission again. if i can do it, you can do it (i mean, melissa, you are taking care of yourself AND a child ! don't tell ME i am strong - you are the one i can only admire for her strength !). 

love to all of you
martina.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: annabel on November 17, 2006, 05:04:43 AM
I'm sitting here with my heart pounding reading all your stories and I can only say I'm so sorry about the cruelty that others have inflicted on all of you.

I wasn't going to write my story because it isn't as bad as all of yours, but it has affected my life since.  My first kiss and sexual experience were against my wishes.  I was waiting for my dad to pick me up  near my friends house (I was 13 and couldn't drive) and these two guys I knew from school dragged me into the bushes, and assaulted me.  I guess I feel it wasn't as bad because no penetration occurred, but lots of other horrible things did.  I finally got away from them and my dad picked me up.  I never told him or anyone until couples therapy because sex was an issue.  When I told the therapist about it, my husband turned to me and said "You never told me that"  Talk about burying things, huh?
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: TwistsBitch on November 17, 2006, 06:58:05 AM
Annabel, I - and probably most others on this thread - can tell there is a lot to the experience you had & how you reacted to it from what you've written almost as much as what you haven't written about it.  Sorry if that doesn't make sense - I'm talking about reading "inbetween the lines".  Even though the description you've given is brief, and the experience itself might have been relatively brief, there is still an immense amount of feeling invovled.

I had a similar time of my first sexual experience at age 9 & as you mention, often felt it wasn't as bad cos it wasn't rape & was not a repeated incident, but as I've seen others post here - there is no hierachy of pain or trauma, there is no scale on which to judge "oh that's horrendous" or "that's not so bad". 

I also reverted to "normality" immediately following my experience, even making an excuse on behalf of the abuser. It's amazing how effective our self-defence mechanisms can be, too good in a way.  I resented my parents for not noticing something had happened to me.  I tried also to bury it until relationship & sexuality issues came up.  No good comes of burying things that haven't been resolved to at least some degree.  And I don't believe such important things can ever be buried for good, they are scars we bear.  Here we can tell the story of those scars & see if maybe they can heal a bit more.

((( annabel )))  :)
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: conny on November 17, 2006, 07:11:19 AM
Annabel twistbitch is so right.
What you have experienced can have just as a heavy impact on the rest of your life as what happend to others.
a friend of mine went trough a similar thing like your at age of 11,and she still(now being 36) suffers from that experience.
She still has not got any realtionship at all,she just don`t let anyone get near her,she never had any sex and has burried most of her emotions.
So yes honey your story is just as bad too!! and thanks for sharing it with us!
(((Hugs)))
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: melissasjack on November 17, 2006, 07:30:47 AM
I wasn't going to write my story because it isn't as bad as all of yours, but it has affected my life since. 
Dear annabel, I bolded this line becuase it is the line that I want you to put out of your head forever....
Its not true...hurts and pain cannot be compared, sweetie, they just are...
so please know you have come to the right place, the place where people will offer you love and hugs and comfort and friendship....and I for one am so glad for you that you felt safe enough to share parts of your story with us.
Take care annabel....
Many hugs,
Melissa

and TB? Many hugs girl....and friendship and admiration for you.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: desertrat on November 17, 2006, 07:32:40 AM
conny is right ! seemingly "small" things can still have a deep impact (though i don't believe that ANY kind of sexual assault is a "small thing"). how good that you were able to talk about it in couples therapy, i hope that helped !
seeing the amount of sexual assaults here i once again can only notice how important it is to teach our young men (and girls as well) how important the sexual sovereignty of a person is and that NO means NO.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: TwistsBitch on November 17, 2006, 07:46:07 AM
and TB? Many hugs girl....and friendship and admiration for you.

Thanks sweet M, likewise to you!  I am finding this thread & the "affected" thread quite hard at the moment, but working through it.  You & everyone here are my inspiration  :)
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: annabel on November 17, 2006, 08:24:27 AM
Wow, everyone here is so supportive, loving and understanding.  Too bad my parents wouldn't have been.  I could NEVER have told them; never did and they're both gone now. 

One positive thing that happened that I forgot to say was I fought really hard, and one of the boys lost a tooth to my boot heel.  It's small justice, but it's all I have.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: mcnell1120 on November 17, 2006, 08:28:50 AM
I just want to let ALL you guys know in here,that even though I haven't been in here,I'm thinking of ya'll and hugging ya tight....keep strong and I'm very proud of all of you guys ,proud for sticking up for yourself now,don't matter if you think you failed in the past...'cuz you guys are all winners...

Love ya

Nellie
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: BrokenOkie on November 17, 2006, 10:48:43 AM
......what i hate most about the whole dredging up of this story that i start feeling like a victim again - something i definitely don't want. sure, i know meanwhile that none of this was my own fault (well, apart maybe from staying with him  :-\). but i don't want to retreat into self-pity and despair. the important thing to me is that this episode of my life has opened many doors, has forced me to work on issues i would otherwise have kept buried probably forever. it doesn't justify what he did to me, and as i said before, at best i am able right now to feel indifference towards him. but i'm not mad at life/ fate/ the universe any more for doing this to me because it allowed me becomeing another, new person. of course, not every day is good. i'd say about 2/3 of the days are fine now, and my smile is genuine. 1/3 of the days - those are the days i'm still working on  ;)

(((Martina)))   Reliving the past by talking about it can bring those memories and feelings to the surface.  You're looking forward, which is the most important thing you can do for yourself.  Your genuine smile is beautiful and inspiring.  Keep opening those doors, sweetie - there's even more light on the other side.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: BrokenOkie on November 17, 2006, 11:09:11 AM
(((Annabel)))

(((TB)))





     

Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: michaelflanagansf on November 17, 2006, 11:33:27 AM
and one other thing, not only to you, melissa, but to everybody here who has endured abuse and has, resulting form that, or even had already before, self esteem issues: the absolutely BEST thing you can do for yourself is go and get some therapy. if you would have told me that before i would have laughed it off, would have said that i am not nuts and certainly not weak and pathetic enough to need this. but then, when i had to do it, it made the world's difference to me. after a good "basic start" with therapy, i also started reading - there are many good books out there. with many good exercises (yes, that's lots of work, but it's worth it !). take that chance, what can you lose ?

I just wanted to second this - it wasn't till decades after I was abused that I even realized it happened.  I was dealing with depression in the 90s and went into therapy - in the midst of it one of the things I realized was that what happened to me on that bus wasn't just bullying, it was sexual abuse.  And this relates to some of the other comments that have been made here - we bury these feelings deep - often so deeply that we don't even name them till years later.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Amiennis on November 17, 2006, 02:43:36 PM
Dear people,

At last, my posting. It is still very difficult for me to talk about this, and my memories are still shattered, all over the place, so the writing might be a little… inconsistent at times. So, please bear with me.
I will post my life story in several parts – it’s just too hard to do it in one take. Hope you’ll understand.
The reason why I want to share it with you, is explaining how I have become the person, the Ennis, I am today, and how BBM is starting to “change” that person, make him want to go out and find out what life is really about, in short: to Live.

I was born an unwanted child. My father always doubted his biological fatherhood. The marriage had really already fallen apart about a year earlier, they were already considering divorce.
My father hated my guts from day one. At two months old, I was in the hospital suffering form serious skin affliction, most probably caused by stress.
The first thing I remember about my father were those terrifying steel-blue eyes hovering above me, radiating nothing but hate and disgust.

I do not exactly recall when the sexual abuse began, but probably (with hindsight) quite early, considering the physical complaints I developed as a young child. It wasn’t just the sexual abuse, the worst part was the sadism that went with it. He actually told me all the time I shouldn’t have been born, was too ugly to ever have been born, so fucking ugly. He told me those things while “abusing” me – I’ll spare you the details of that.

Apart from that, there was the psychological abuse. I’ll give you one example, just to show you what kind of man he was. It’s not a pretty story. As a 4-year old, I had two rabbits. One of them somehow escaped. One day, my father took me outside, with the other rabbit. Right before my eyes, he took the poor innocent thing, cut off its ears (it was still alive) and ripped it to shreds before my very eyes, until nothing was left of it but a bloody mess - which he then threw into the garbage can. All the time looking at me with those eyes.
I was paralysed with fear and grief.
And still partly am, to this day.
And then, always those hints that I was no good, so ugly, shouldn’t have been there in the first place, could never do anything right, etc, etc.

Thirdly, the physical abuse. One example. I was 8 years old. For some reason, in his opinion, I had done “something wrong” again. So, he took my index finger, opened the cellar door, put my finger between the door and the doorpost, closed the door and locked it. My mother came in, screamed and unlocked the door – but the damage had already been done, of course, the top of my finger was half… Well, let’s just say, it healed in the end. I still wonder what she told the doctor.

About my mother: you should now that she as well was terrified of my father. He was always putting her down, calling her stupid, dumb, not looking good enough, etc.
He had a high position in society, with a lot of “friends in high places”, telling her he would take everything from her, including her two children (I have an older brother, who was my father’s favourite).
Nevertheless, it took me over 30 years and a lot of fighting before I was finally able to “forgive” her.

I developed many physical afflictions over the years, from severe skin diseases, inexplainable high fevers, jaundice and an ulcer at age 8, trouble walking, pneumonia, the list goes on and on. And nobody ever understood how such a young child could have such severe "disorders", I remember the doctors saying it.

For the first 8 years, this was more or less what my life was like. I was a prisoner in the concentration camp my “own” father had set up for me, he being the camp bully.
He is what psychiatrists officially call a psychopath – he has all the symptoms.

I will have to stop for now, I’m completely drained.
If my story could be of help to just one person, then…

Thank you.
Marc

Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: paintedshoes on November 17, 2006, 02:50:45 PM
Oh, my darling Marc...I can't begin to imagine how you survived, but I am so grateful that you did, for I know you as a gentle and kind man.  Please know that while nothing can erase what was done to you, we can and will, if you allow us, hold you now with all the love you were denied and which you always deserved.  My friend.  My brother.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: desertrat on November 17, 2006, 02:58:09 PM
you did it ! and i have no clue what to say now. those last days were so much a "build-up" to this moment...i just hope you can feel the same kind of relief that i did.
i can only second what jackie said. you have won the biggest victory against your father already - by becoming the wonderful person you are. lots of hugs & love to you.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: fritzkep on November 17, 2006, 03:08:08 PM
Marc, bless you for sharing your pain with us. I cannot say that it will get easier after sharing, though it might. You are always in my prayers, and I am holding your hand during this difficult time.

Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: conny on November 17, 2006, 03:15:01 PM
Marc,so proud of you!!!!!!
((((marc))))
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: BrokenOkie on November 17, 2006, 03:23:16 PM
(((Marc)))   To have survived and, to the extent possible, overcome the numerous obstacles & abuses inflicted upon you and become the wonderful person you are is testament of your inner strength and good heart.   BBM may have triggered something in you, but the inner strength and resolve have been there all along.  Hugs, friend, lots of 'em.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: ChrisW on November 17, 2006, 04:18:12 PM
Marc, your post is so courageous. I can't imagine a better place for you to find the love and healing you need and deserve than among the wonderful people (i don't mean me, because I am one of the lucky ones from a kind and loving home) that you have already found here. A safe place. Big hugs and love. Chris.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: gnash on November 17, 2006, 09:06:11 PM
marc, you are so right about the psychological abuse.. geez. as if the physical wasn't enough. it's strange how many similar experiences are out there, involving pets, mothers who feel helpless, and favoritism among siblings. my father was also very negative, no doubt battling demons of his own. (that is why i feel so many closeted men are battling that "internalized homophobia" that affect them and their loved ones. what's really sick are the closeted men who go out of their way to belittle and antagonize gays even tho they are actually gay themselves! insanity.)

my father got me a drum set when i was a child, and at first it was novel and he encouraged me to play. he said i would be "the next buddy rich" (wasn't he the drummer?) and i LOVED that thing. sparkly blue and chrome, a small sized set with about 5 different parts in the kit. well, one day i was practicing and was probaby driving him crazy, for he came down, threw me to the ground and proceeded to stomp the drum kit to bits with his feet. i was terrified, i was about 4 years old. later, when we got a piano and my sister got piano lessons, i would play and one day he came in behind me and i didn't see him there and he slammed the piano lid on my fingers, nothing broken but i wouldn't even write for a few days... i was about 9 or 10.

he also flushed my hamster down the toilet.... i didn't know about that till later, at the time i thought it had escaped. later when i was an adult, he laughed about it as he told me how he flushed it without me knowing it. what's more is that others present got a big kick out of that and laughed along with him.

and i was terrified of him in other ways, the sick threats he thought were funny. he made me watch him when he shot a dog, it was a neighbors dog standing on the top of a tall brick wall, it wasn't doing anything but standing there, not barking or anything, but he got a big kick out of hitting it with a pellet gun so it fell off the wall, and when i complained about it he got all angry... needless to say, i was about 6 or 7 when i realized i did not love my dad.

you also mentioned illnesses manifested by stress, like the skin condition...   i am pretty certain that the bloody hands i experienced during HS, after my sister left, when the abuse was at its peak, was a direct result of my fear and anger toward my dad. i just felt so trapped.

the magnitude of the abuse does not matter. it seems the most horrific event can be blocked, a sort of survival mechanism that children generate??  but the smaller gestures, a look of disgust or a few hurtful words, those seem to hurt the most. my dad must have known i was gay from an early age, my affinity for dolls and drawing and "girly things" must have irritated the hell out of him. i'm sorry that i didn't please my dad growing up (i hated sports) but at the same time, i feel like saying "fuck him" for the rest of my life.. i really don't care what he thinks or thought of me, because he was wrong, i was just being myself.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: ImEnnisShesJack on November 17, 2006, 09:22:23 PM
HEIDI.....I love you Heidi. Why is it that the nicest people are the ones the freaks find, the ones they do their best to wreck...

You won. He failed.

Bless you Jack!

I have taken major steps to recovery.  And it is people like you (and the others here) that have helped.

((((((jack)))))
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Brokeback_1 on November 17, 2006, 11:35:29 PM
This is an excerpt from a note written to a friend of mine on the board. I cleaned it up for grammar,as  my pm's are not known for correct placement of the comma <g>; I did work on it a bit so others might find it understandable, but it's basically what I sent in the email. I'm putting it on the thread  because some of us need to know WE WON>>>THEY LOST.

People who have been through what we have been through are survivors. We have steel. Too often, we just do not know it.


Years later I actually met one of the guys who had anally molested me when I was a kid. I'd seen one or two of them around  when I was a teenager andhad  run in the opposite direction. I was --I know, as you will find out, I'm wierd roflmao-- MYSELF when we met. Nothing more and nothing less. 

It was at a cast  party for an off off broadway show that I simply don't remember. Well, there I was with 3 of my  older gay friends. They  had dragged me there, men who had really really helped me.  Two told me to mingle and ran off god knew where while one stuck with me to discuss my inadequecies. As we were talking,  I felt my body go fucking COLD as I looked at a guy who was in his 50's. Didn't know why for a split second. And then I knew. Immediately knew. Mr Almost Nine. I didn't know what to do so i decided to say hello

 At the time I was about 35-36 and rather goodlookin if I say so myself.  I whispered to my friend, who was in his 70's, that the arrogant looking man with the wedding ring standing  by the bar was one of the men who had fucked me as a kid. He was stunned/angry--he had bent over backwards helping me heal emotionally-- and said 'Are you SURE?' and i said 'yep'.  I was quiet for a second. Then, as  I started towards him, my friend blanched and started looking for a big younger gay male friend who he knew was there. A cop. In case i needed backup.... I kid you not lolololol, to this day I still crack up that he went straight  for the ' Queer NYPD '  roflmao!!!

So I walked over and said 'Hello, how are you, it's been a long TIME!' and he said something, didnt recognise me. I was a nervous wreck inside; part of me was so scared thet I could have loosened my bowels on the floor, but I must tell you that his not knowing me  centered me. I simply wasn't scared anymore, but became clinically detached. The idea  that he could have done what he had done and thought so little of it and me that he didn't know WHO I WAS awed me. If I had done something like that I would have remembered every single thing, every detail, every act. I would have recognised them a hundred years later. But this guy??  He didn't know who i was. It began to anger me, but i still felt...detached..

 So i said is this your wife? and he said i don't remember you and I said ' Ah but i remember YOU. You are so and so from near -- Avenue. You used to hang with this one and that one.'   I saw him start to get nervous, could tell he knew SOMETHING.  His wife said something like why yes, he did. What happened to those guys? I said her husband would know and told him my name while looking into his eyes. THAT was not not easy for me but i managed to do it. He went fucking WHITE. I pleasantly asked if he still kept up  that big hobby of his which he had so generously shared with me when i was a boy. He mumbled  no and told the wife he felt like going home. Now...she was clueless. I told her it was lovely to meet her. Then I put my hand out and said--I remember word for word-- 'Now that we have met again after all these years, you know I will keep in close touch. Don't you. I will not lose track of you again. It's interesting to see what you have become, you will hear from me!' His wife smiled and went for her coat, while he ignored my hand and  gave me a quiet  and snarled 'What do you want from me.'  I smiled back--it was like looking at this I don't know what--and said the following:

 "I  want you to remember who I am. I want you to remember what you did. And  I want you to remember that  I am a man. What are you?"

Then I said 'It's interesting to see you after all these years. I will keep in touch'  And he fucking ran away. Just bolted.

My friend was having a fucking coronary. The gay cop--as we found later--was in a back room getting head from a gay cop groupie, and he didn't show for another half hour. To his eternal credit he was enraged when my friend told him and wanted police info. However they busted his balls about it for years. He was off duty that night anyway lol.

This friend of mine was the then-oldest  surviving member of a group of gay guys who had made me their project years before. What he did then was one of the reasons WHY I loved those fucks so much. As Mr. Almost Nine got to the door, my friend  said 'Excuse me' to him  and pointed at me with his cane. Then he said  'He has panache--- but I dont.'  And proceeded to spit on the floor next to his shoe and QUITE  loudly say. 'Don't want my spit on you, get the fuck out.'  roflmao

I dont think I had panache, I was just curious as to how he would behave. I'm wierd that way. And I knew that everything was perfect:  who I was with, how I felt. I instinctively knew that he was there for a reason. On the way that evening, I had had a 'feeling' that something was up, something namelessly important, a feeling also that it was important for me to hold onto who I was that night.  I didn't have a clue why, but had learned through experience to follow  those warnings and not ignore them. So even though I hadn't a clue, there was something before even walking through the door.

I never saw him, met him, heard of him again. There was no reason to.  I had forgiven those people prior to this for what they had done to me, but that night I forgave them for being pigs. That was enough.

**edit--reading this as a post, i wish i had looked at my watch and told him it was almost 9 lolol, that would have been great!!! hiindsight, always hindsight!!**
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: BrokenOkie on November 17, 2006, 11:49:32 PM
<stands up and cheers for (((Jack)))>

Did you have panache?  YES! (and that's a gross understatement)
 
Self control?  Immeasurable

And big brass steel ones, too.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: BrokenOkie on November 17, 2006, 11:51:36 PM
...... i really don't care what he thinks or thought of me, because he was wrong, i was just being myself.

(((Jimmy)))  It's his loss not knowing the incredible, giving & loving son he has.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: mcnell1120 on November 18, 2006, 09:00:39 AM
Jack, I loved your story man...you're a trip...so proud of you for looking at him in the eye,that spineless piece of shit. >:(

"You've got balls the size of apples"  ::)

Love ya,

Nellie  ;D
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: conny on November 18, 2006, 09:49:39 AM
wow jack proud of you!!!!
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Osprey on November 18, 2006, 11:28:06 AM
Jack, Knash, Marc, and others,

Sweet Jesus Sweet Jesus.  When I read you stories here I just go cold inside.  I feel this anger and this cold empty fury at the people who have done these things.  I have come to the conclusion that war is nothing compared to the battles you all have fought.  War is by and large pretty straight forward, us versus them and we know why and the rules are set in so many ways.  But this, this hideous damage done in so many cases by those whom God blessed and counted on to create good, balanced human beings, with the right to hope, the right to dream, the right to live without fear, the right to love.  To take that trust and turn it against the most innocent of all is a crime so insidious, so horrifying that I can barely comprehend it.  I find my self fantasizing about being alone in a room with these pitiful excuses for human beings for just ten minutes. Just them, me and a 50,000 volt Taser.  I am not sure that I would be able to stop until they were writhing on the floor in an agony so terrible that they begged for death.  God forgive me but I would love it.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: fritzkep on November 18, 2006, 11:33:29 AM
It's an understandable reaction, Osprey. Yet I know that you realize that inflicting abuse on abusers just continues the pattern, and the main act of heroism on the part of those who have posted here is that they have managed to break the pattern. Forgiveness or indifference toward the abuser may or may not occur, but for the abused one to state, consciously or not, that he/she will not inflict what he/she has suffered onto others, particularly onto dependents, is paramount, primary, and heroic.

Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: CellarDweller115 on November 18, 2006, 12:32:10 PM
I am truly amazed and touched by the amount of sharing that everyone is willing to do here.

It shows not only the comfort level we have with each other, but the amount of growing we've done in recent times.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Osprey on November 18, 2006, 01:00:28 PM
Fritz,

Of course I realize that but you know what?  There are times when I read these stories that I just want to be a vengeful, nasty, little prick.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Amiennis on November 18, 2006, 02:13:57 PM
Fritz,

Of course I realize that but you know what?  There are times when I read these stories that I just want to be a vengeful, nasty, little prick.

... and I thank you for it!
Marc
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Amiennis on November 18, 2006, 02:26:52 PM
marc, you are so right about the psychological abuse..

I actually think the psychological abuse is the worst - however horrible the other "things" are.

geez. as if the physical wasn't enough. it's strange how many similar experiences are out there, involving pets, mothers who feel helpless, and favoritism among siblings. my father was also very negative, no doubt battling demons of his own. (that is why i feel so many closeted men are battling that "internalized homophobia" that affect them and their loved ones. what's really sick are the closeted men who go out of their way to belittle and antagonize gays even tho they are actually gay themselves! insanity.)

my father got me a drum set when i was a child, and at first it was novel and he encouraged me to play. he said i would be "the next buddy rich" (wasn't he the drummer?) and i LOVED that thing. sparkly blue and chrome, a small sized set with about 5 different parts in the kit. well, one day i was practicing and was probaby driving him crazy, for he came down, threw me to the ground and proceeded to stomp the drum kit to bits with his feet. i was terrified, i was about 4 years old. later, when we got a piano and my sister got piano lessons, i would play and one day he came in behind me and i didn't see him there and he slammed the piano lid on my fingers, nothing broken but i wouldn't even write for a few days... i was about 9 or 10.

he also flushed my hamster down the toilet.... i didn't know about that till later, at the time i thought it had escaped. later when i was an adult, he laughed about it as he told me how he flushed it without me knowing it. what's more is that others present got a big kick out of that and laughed along with him.

F***ing bastards.

and i was terrified of him in other ways, the sick threats he thought were funny. he made me watch him when he shot a dog, it was a neighbors dog standing on the top of a tall brick wall, it wasn't doing anything but standing there, not barking or anything, but he got a big kick out of hitting it with a pellet gun so it fell off the wall, and when i complained about it he got all angry... needless to say, i was about 6 or 7 when i realized i did not love my dad.

you also mentioned illnesses manifested by stress, like the skin condition...   i am pretty certain that the bloody hands i experienced during HS, after my sister left, when the abuse was at its peak, was a direct result of my fear and anger toward my dad. i just felt so trapped.

Oh yes, I'm positive, somehow the body needs an outlet for all the accumulated stress.

the magnitude of the abuse does not matter. it seems the most horrific event can be blocked, a sort of survival mechanism that children generate??  but the smaller gestures, a look of disgust or a few hurtful words, those seem to hurt the most. my dad must have known i was gay from an early age, my affinity for dolls and drawing and "girly things" must have irritated the hell out of him. i'm sorry that i didn't please my dad growing up (i hated sports) but at the same time, i feel like saying "fuck him" for the rest of my life.. i really don't care what he thinks or thought of me, because he was wrong, i was just being myself.

And good for you! You are a HUMAN being, to say the least - he obviously is not.
Let him ..., and try to get on with your life - and I KNOW how hard that is.
We are not alone... any more.

Marc
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Amiennis on November 18, 2006, 02:48:14 PM
It's an understandable reaction, Osprey. Yet I know that you realize that inflicting abuse on abusers just continues the pattern, and the main act of heroism on the part of those who have posted here is that they have managed to break the pattern. Forgiveness or indifference toward the abuser may or may not occur, but for the abused one to state, consciously or not, that he/she will not inflict what he/she has suffered onto others, particularly onto dependents, is paramount, primary, and heroic.



And yes, I can honestly state here and now, that I did not "pass it on" - and I will not deny that was quite difficult at times. But: I overcame it, and at least that chain has been broken.
I won, he lost.

And I thank you all - "never enough thanking, never enough thanking".
Marc
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: fritzkep on November 18, 2006, 02:51:15 PM
I won, he lost.

Right on, (((((((Marc))))))))!

Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: desertrat on November 18, 2006, 02:57:18 PM
I won, he lost.

THAT is a perfect mantra, marc. to be said AT LEAST 100 times every day (or in every moment when his eyes come back haunting you.).

you DEFINITELY won. and i finally found the one good thing about your father: he sired YOU.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: paintedshoes on November 18, 2006, 03:58:49 PM
I won, he lost.

THAT is a perfect mantra, marc. to be said AT LEAST 100 times every day (or in every moment when his eyes come back haunting you.).

you DEFINITELY won. and i finally found the one good thing about your father: he sired YOU.
What Martina said.  ^^

I am so proud to know all of you us that I could bust.  Here is the cycle broken, the pain acknowledged, the truth out in the light where it can be seen, the future positive, because we have come to trust and appreciate each other, and know that we are safe.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: annabel on November 18, 2006, 04:00:40 PM
Marc, I've been away and just read your post.  I don't know what to say.  I just felt numb when I read it. 
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: desertrat on November 18, 2006, 04:20:52 PM
i'm sorry that i didn't please my dad growing up (i hated sports) but at the same time, i feel like saying "fuck him" for the rest of my life.. i really don't care what he thinks or thought of me, because he was wrong, i was just being myself.

you definitely have no reason to be sorry. we are not born to live the life of our parents (they had theirs already) but our own life. i'm glad you're doing that now, otherwise the world would miss something ! (imagine you would play soccer instead of entertaining us with GREAT photoshop artwork  ;)).
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: desertrat on November 18, 2006, 04:25:05 PM
i'm a bit late with all my replies today...

jack, that story of yours is GREAT ! i know how much courage this needed. i can see you, cool on the outside and trembling like a leaf on the inside (have been there, too). i hope your story will encourage all of us to stand up for ourselves and stop being afraid of the abusers.
congratulations to you !
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Brokeback_1 on November 18, 2006, 05:13:17 PM
Fritz,

Of course I realize that but you know what?  There are times when I read these stories that I just want to be a vengeful, nasty, little prick.

Osprey LOL!!!

and Osprey..Thank You

Jack
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: gattaca on November 18, 2006, 06:21:04 PM
.... But you are right about living with the memories - for me it was 29 years ago.  A lot of water has passed under the bridge since then, but those memories are still painfully vivid. 
...
Glenn

Glenn, Talking or in this case, writing about what has happened to us, at first seems to tear open those old wounds - even after decades.  It sort of does but it also HELPS US share some of that burden with our friends - people whom we've met here who really care about each other - though many of us have never met and just knowing there are other people out there who have walked similar paths is part of dealing with the pain as well - we are not alone.  I've been trying to catch up with the postings  over the past few days.   Ltr, Vincent
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: gattaca on November 18, 2006, 06:24:42 PM
Hi, Rather than reposting, here's a link to my posting in the affected thread --> http://davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=101.msg580561#msg580561

Later, Vincent
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Brokeback_1 on November 18, 2006, 06:31:58 PM
It was an amzing post first time and even more remarkable  to read it again Vincent. . love ya.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Brokeback_1 on November 18, 2006, 07:09:27 PM
That's the thing Martina...i wasn't scared once I realised he didn't have a clue who I was. I was  quietly angry at that. It seemed inconcievable that someone could play with anyone so young, twist him, treat him like nothing and not remember who he was even as an adult.

So i was quietly angry, not scared anymore. And disgusted. It was hard to look him in the eyes, very hard.  But necessary, which is why i did it: I hadn't done anything, HE had! And he had made me believe I was the guilty one, so there was no way on earth i was NOT going to do it, even though I don't quite know how i managed it. i just...... detached, observed from the outside so to speak while grabbing ahold of who i was and not allowing myself, the knowledge of who i was, to vanish.  That detachment is a double edged sword, i learned to do it while being abused but it has come in handy at times lol.

What surprised me the most about well, ME was extending my hand. I thought I did it to be polite, but it just felt right. As it went out it hit me that I was making him an offer; he refused, too bad for his soul, mine did what it needed to do.

Still, it very much surprised me even as i did it...

I do remember one thing--after going home i took a long hot shower. It was as if i was washing him off of me. A guy like that leaves a sense of slime trailing after him.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: CellarDweller115 on November 18, 2006, 07:23:53 PM
Fritz,

Of course I realize that but you know what?  There are times when I read these stories that I just want to be a vengeful, nasty, little prick.


OMG....this soooo reminds me of something.  I'm not sure how mature I'm going to look at the begining of the story, but what the hell?


I remember when I would harbor all that anger towards everyone that abused me.  Every Halloween I would watch the Stephen King movie, "Carrie".  For those who don't know that movie, "Carrie" is about a high school misfit (Carrie) who is abused by everyone, and has an ultra conservative religious mother.  During her senior year, after a traumatic experience, she develops telekenisis.  Her mother claims she's now the devil's child.  She goes to her prom and the ulitmate nasty trick is played on her.  She lashes out with her powers, and kills her senior class.  I used to watch this and secretly cheer for her....."Do it!  Make them pay!"   :D


many years later, when I got a lot of my anger out of my system, and I made a decision to have a more positive life, and frame of mind, I watched it again on Halloween.  I swear, I cried.  My heart went out to that girl, who had absoluetly no one, including her home, which was supposed to be a safe haven.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: fritzkep on November 18, 2006, 07:33:15 PM
Chuck, it is far better to move from immaturity toward maturity rather than the other way around. It's called, "growing up".  :D

Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Brokeback_1 on November 18, 2006, 08:13:01 PM
fritz said it Chuck. you grew up.
i had a lousy time in HS, wanted the whole building to collapse.

It didn't.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: BrokenOkie on November 18, 2006, 10:56:56 PM
Glenn, Talking or in this case, writing about what has happened to us, at first seems to tear open those old wounds - even after decades.  It sort of does but it also HELPS US share some of that burden with our friends - people whom we've met here who really care about each other - though many of us have never met and just knowing there are other people out there who have walked similar paths is part of dealing with the pain as well - we are not alone.  I've been trying to catch up with the postings  over the past few days.   Ltr, Vincent

Well and honestly said, Vincent.    
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: gnash on November 19, 2006, 12:36:06 AM
"Carrie" ...  She goes to her prom and the ulitmate nasty trick is played on her.  She lashes out with her powers, and kills her senior class.  I used to watch this and secretly cheer for her....."Do it!  Make them pay!"   :D

lol, i cheered too, those guys deserved it. lucikily, i was spared too much bullying in school... unlike some of you guys...  :-\    it's such a widespread phenomena too, with movies made about it and anti-bully days set up in schools. yet it goes on, as if it's something that will never go away. those kids that shoot up the schools, bullied. sad, but true... and it seems to be almost a tradition.

i cry nearly every time i see a movie that mirrors my life... when watching "the great santini" it was almost embarassing as i could not keep composed in the theater -- the father in that was a lot like mine -- military father... the abuse in "beautiful thing" that ste has to deal really hit home too -- that scene when jamie lifts his shirt to touch the bruises? -- i remember my friend ray doing the same thing.

and in "this boy's life" with robert deniro playing the abusive father, i found myself crying, then cheering the boy and his mother when they finally left his sorry ass...    i reaalllllllllly wished that happened in my own life.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: desertrat on November 19, 2006, 03:32:35 AM
I remember when I would harbor all that anger towards everyone that abused me.  Every Halloween I would watch the Stephen King movie, "Carrie".  For those who don't know that movie, "Carrie" is about a high school misfit (Carrie) who is abused by everyone, and has an ultra conservative religious mother.  During her senior year, after a traumatic experience, she develops telekenisis.  Her mother claims she's now the devil's child.  She goes to her prom and the ulitmate nasty trick is played on her.  She lashes out with her powers, and kills her senior class.  I used to watch this and secretly cheer for her....."Do it!  Make them pay!"   :D

hahahaha....chuck, how many of your senior class are still alive ?    :D ;D

my mind is f***ed up....i, too saw carrie. and i could sympathise, i felt so sorry for her. but i always thought "you can't do this. hurt back because you are hurt. then NOBODY will love you any more. just swallow it down and be NICE with people."
it took me quite a while to learn how to complain, fight back, be rude,.....etc., when required.  ::)

and chuck - glad you got over this. it brings you more peace of mind, i guess. and - you don't look good with long hair. carrie isn't the right thing for you.  :D :D
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Amiennis on November 19, 2006, 06:31:25 AM
That detachment is a double edged sword, i learned to do it while being abused but it has come in handy at times lol.

Yep... can relate to that!

What surprised me the most about well, ME was extending my hand. I thought I did it to be polite, but it just felt right. As it went out it hit me that I was making him an offer; he refused, too bad for his soul, mine did what it needed to do.

Yeah - right on! YOU WON, HE LOST.

Still, it very much surprised me even as i did it...

... and I do applaud you for it!

Marc

Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: desertrat on November 19, 2006, 09:31:57 AM
That's the thing Martina...i wasn't scared once I realised he didn't have a clue who I was. I was  quietly angry at that. It seemed inconcievable that someone could play with anyone so young, twist him, treat him like nothing and not remember who he was even as an adult.

THAT is the question that strikes me very often - especially at these "one time rape" experiences....conny's story was one of those. i mean, it can't have been fun for this guy, raping a struggling girl somewhere in a backstreet. so - what is the outcome ? he can't have had fun but caused her half a lifetime of grief. nobody wins in those situations. it is awful.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Amiennis on November 19, 2006, 11:45:53 AM
That's the thing Martina...i wasn't scared once I realised he didn't have a clue who I was. I was  quietly angry at that. It seemed inconcievable that someone could play with anyone so young, twist him, treat him like nothing and not remember who he was even as an adult.

THAT is the question that strikes me very often - especially at these "one time rape" experiences....conny's story was one of those. i mean, it can't have been fun for this guy, raping a struggling girl somewhere in a backstreet. so - what is the outcome ? he can't have had fun but caused her half a lifetime of grief. nobody wins in those situations. it is awful.

The "fun" for them is usually the (temporary) sense of power they get from it - doesn't even have to do anything at all with sexual issues.
Which doesn't make it any better for the victims...
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: ImEnnisShesJack on November 19, 2006, 02:33:14 PM
fritz said it Chuck. you grew up.
i had a lousy time in HS, wanted the whole building to collapse.

It didn't.

mine's still standing, too.

and now i have children going through the same thing.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: michaelflanagansf on November 19, 2006, 08:35:11 PM
I wanted to address the whole 'wanting revenge' thing.  It works better in theory than in reality.

In fact when I heard that Charlie, the guy who abused me on the bus, was stabbed in prison it didn't make me feel any better - if anything it made me sad that he had such a shi**y life and that he had chosen to share it with me by abusing me for years.

It also didn't help me that my mother told me about this, gloatingly -  all I could do was remember her words 'well, what do you want me to do about it?' from the time I was being abused. 

The strange thing is that compared to what Charlie did to me on that bus all of the homophobic nonsense that I put up with in high school kind of paled.  And since I had fought against him and his brothers, I was ready to fight against that too (and did).

And he probably set me up with a flight response that came in really handy when some football players tried to screw around with me in college.

I'm not saying he did me any favors - no way - it has affected me for years.  Perhaps my circumstances and feeling are different since he was a kid when he did this to me.  Regardless, I felt no big lift when I found out that he had been knifed in a shower.  [His life, apparently, continued to be one of abuse of others after he was done with me, btw.  He was in prison for armed robbery.]
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: TwistsBitch on November 20, 2006, 04:57:31 AM
The revenge aspect is interesting - thanks for your account Michael.

I've never had any kind of revenge issues, although a person I told once offered to "put a contract out" on the perpetrator for me!  Rather than revenge, I still have the guilt about not reporting it officially, especially when everyday there is a new story about paedophiles on the news.  I can't bear to listen to the reports or read in a newspaper in case I see his name.  I sometimes get paranoid that I will encounter someone with his name in my professional life, not that there should be any reason to. But nevertheless the fearful fantasies of what would happen if I was introduced to someone with that name occasionally haunt me.  I don't think there is any resolution for this but I am ok with it, one aspect of the whole thing that is not a major thing to still deal with at least.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: desertrat on November 20, 2006, 05:19:02 AM
revenge ? difficult question. i never actually felt that "physical" revenge would get me anywhere. at first, right after it was all over, i was too afraid of him still to even think about that possibility. and later, when i got my world together again, i kind of saw that it wouldn't make me feel any better if had hurt him. plus, as i said before, i have a "good girl problem". it would feel wrong to do something like that.

what i thought about a lot (and actually did) was whenever i would meet him (for years afterwards, i was forced to regularly see him), i wanted to show him that i was good, in fact that my life was perfect now (without him). i knew that his life was not going too well, so maybe that was my revenge. pathetic, isn't it ?  ::)

but as many people said before, revenge won't take the hurt you suffered away. it won't make you feel better. i don't want to spread the "good girl" thing here, you all do have every right to want revenge, in my point of view. but unfortunately it is a psychological fact that it won't help you to heal. unfortunately.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: CellarDweller115 on November 20, 2006, 05:23:52 AM
what i thought about a lot (and actually did) was whenever i would meet him (for years afterwards, i was forced to regularly see him), i wanted to show him that i was good, in fact that my life was perfect now (without him). i knew that his life was not going too well, so maybe that was my revenge. pathetic, isn't it ?  ::)


I don't think that's pathetic....I think it's natural, human nature.

Isn't that a saying?  Something along the lines like "The best revenge is living a good life?"

I could swear I heard something like that.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: CellarDweller115 on November 20, 2006, 05:25:20 AM
actually, I just found the quote online.


Living well is the best revenge.
George Herbert
English clergyman & metaphysical poet (1593 - 1633)
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Amiennis on November 20, 2006, 05:37:59 AM
Living well is the best revenge.

I wholeheartedly agree.

Marc
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: desertrat on November 20, 2006, 05:52:06 AM
Living well is the best revenge.
George Herbert
English clergyman & metaphysical poet (1593 - 1633)


thanks, chuck - i LOVE that. will copy it and put it somewhere where i can read it every day.  :)
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: bass51 on November 20, 2006, 02:30:38 PM
Post 2000                  (Gassing along at an unusual rate of flatulence!)  ::)


A general message of hope and love, to all the folks here posting life stories of incredible natures. I read them all, and although I don’t have horrific tales to tell, I too, was afflicted with the pangs of not ‘fitting in’ with the HS crowd, always knowing I was ‘different’. I hated living those years, look back on them none too fondly, but I have moved on. I am not that person who was constantly picked on, derided and made to feel generally inadequate by my peers. But because of that I learned to grow confidant with a strong sense of independence. Success in my endeavours with respect to music was instrumental (pun intended) ;) in my continuing to push the envelope of confidence, for I defined who I am. Sure, setbacks everywhere, frustrations abounding, but learning that patience is truly more than a virtue has molded who I am.

I invented who I am now, and like me very much. I have said many years ago, if I could do it, anybody can. I was the most introverted, unsure of myself individual anyone could know. Teen years were very awkward in the physical sense, I was not attractive one bit, skinny, scrawny from childhood years of constant allergies and illnesses, then discovering and struggling to confirm where my sexual attraction lay. Curiously, I never denied or ignored my homosexuality, but I never felt I was part of how that was defined, recognized in society, and still don’t. I am only me. In addition, my folks did the best they could, regarding the frugal nature of our upbringing. So I struck out on my own, a road that has been very alone, sometimes lonely, but I have chosen those individuals I care to take down that road of life. I am overwhelmed to have found all of you and invite you all to travel with me; if you want…I’m likin’ what I’m seein’ in all your faces, a strong sense of spirit despite everything.
As I read your stories, I am reminded of the BBQ pics, all those beautiful, smiling faces filled with love. We are a tenacious, resilient lot, we humans are, the drive for survival, and more importantly, success and happiness is the goal. As Brad stated it’s the journey that is important, the getting there. For all the horror inflicted, those faces are the triumph over adversity. Human spirit will win every time. Give it a chance; let it run – ain’t no reins on that one…

For those of you searching, take the time, look around, listen and hear and see what your spirit is telling you. But be honest with yourself, no one knows you but you. Deception is an easy thing, especially self. But don’t ignore what the spirit is saying, listen to it.

Love to you all –

Lenny


Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: desertrat on November 20, 2006, 03:06:19 PM
I invented who I am now, and like me very much.

wow. do you realize what a powerful statement that is, lenny ? because, essentially, it says that we can be who/ whatever we want....which is true, of course. it is so wonderful that you found who you want to be and are comfortable with yourself now. i'm hoping to get there one day. right now, i'm starting to feel good with myself, so i guess i'm on the right way....
thank you for the inspiration !

btw., congratulations on your 2000th post, lenny !  :)
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Amiennis on November 20, 2006, 03:13:31 PM
essentially, it says that we can be who/ whatever we want....which is true, of course.

Is it really, I wonder? Is it a matter of course?

CONGRATZ, LENNY, ON YOUR 2000TH POST!!!
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: desertrat on November 20, 2006, 03:22:40 PM
essentially, it says that we can be who/ whatever we want....which is true, of course.

Is it really, I wonder? Is it a matter of course?


i really, really believe that, marc. i have seen it in so many wonderful people. it would be the saddest thing ever if we were doomed to be what other people make us. we could start trying with small things, one step after the other.
for me, one step is not always being "nice". sometimes it works and then i'm really proud of myself (i wrote a VERY unfriendly e-mail to somebody who owes me something today. it was a big step for me and now i feel like i could change the world....  ;)).
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: bass51 on November 20, 2006, 04:12:54 PM


i really, really believe that, marc. i have seen it in so many wonderful people. it would be the saddest thing ever if we were doomed to be what other people make us. we could start trying with small things, one step after the other.
for me, one step is not always being "nice". sometimes it works and then i'm really proud of myself (i wrote a VERY unfriendly e-mail to somebody who owes me something today. it was a big step for me and now i feel like i could change the world....  ;)).
You can Martina, change your world. And make it what you want.

And yes, i'm aware of how powerful that statement i made is, 'ts why I said it. And equally, if I could do it, anybody can.

Lenny
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: bass51 on November 20, 2006, 04:25:45 PM
essentially, it says that we can be who/ whatever we want....which is true, of course.

Is it really, I wonder? Is it a matter of course?

CONGRATZ, LENNY, ON YOUR 2000TH POST!!!
Thanks, Marc, and I believe, your life is your choice. Be what you want to be, read/watch interviews of people who have worked to attain what they are, they all say they dreamed it first, then worked to make it happen.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: BrokenOkie on November 20, 2006, 05:59:52 PM
The 12/5/06 issue of 'The Advocate' has an article titled 'Demanding Healthy Love', which speaks about gay/lesbian partner abuse.  The article can be read online at:

http://www.advocate.com/currentstory1_w.asp?id=39543
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: BrokenOkie on November 20, 2006, 06:25:59 PM
(((Lenny))) - thanks for your words of encouragement and empowerment.

As a child, I had always enjoyed school..........until junior and high school, where I learned to despise having to be there.  I was subjected to a bit of physical abuse from one of the "masculine jocks" and some name-calling.  In an effort to get away from that environment, I took extra courses ahead of time and the last 3 years of high school I only had to [literally] put up with the place and the people for half days.  Soon as the lunch bell rang I was out of there and on my way to work.

I have virtually no interaction with anyone from my school days and emphatically refuse to attend class reunions, etc.  My life has been greatly improved by removing myself from that chunk of history, and, like you, choosing my friends for myself.

Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: CellarDweller115 on November 20, 2006, 06:41:21 PM
I was subjected to a bit of physical abuse from one of the "masculine jocks" and some name-calling.  In an effort to get away from that environment, I took extra courses ahead of time and the last 3 years of high school I only had to [literally] put up with the place and the people for half days.  Soon as the lunch bell rang I was out of there and on my way to work.


Great minds. 

I also had some of the "masculine jocks" who enjoyed using me as a target.  I crammed as many classes in my sophmore and junior years.  Senior year, they wouldn't let me have just a half day, so I took four classes, a lunch, and 4 studies, which I took in the library, in peace.  The jocks never went there.   ;)
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: gnash on November 20, 2006, 07:49:51 PM
thanks lenny, for your uplifting words.  i'm sure your musical talent was indeed "instrumental" in comandeering your sanity while growing up. i know my art was a saving grace, something i could fall into and forget about troubles!

and glenn, for that link on abusive relationships.... you know how they say that daughters sometimes go on to marry their fathers? or men like their fathers? it's weird, because my first relationship, which lasted nearly five years, it almost like that. he was ex-military and abusive like my dad... same blue eyes too...  but i loved him dearly, unlike my father, and toward the end he got fairly abusive, physically. i was never raped or anything, but he started to drink and do cocaine (a byproduct of so many restaurant workers, it seems... he was a chef) he could get real mean and domineering which sometimes ended up in fights and since he was so much stronger he would always win... even after our break up he was a mess and i remember once being outside of a bar (thank god we took our conversation outside) and he spent some time holding me in a painful headlock and telling me he loved me... UGH!  but anyway when that started happening and his infidelities, i thought, "geez what the F and i doing, i left home to escape this shit",,,  and i ended the relationship. it wasn't' easy to do but it was simple to see that i couldn't be with him anymore...   

but with children and all that, and financial situations, and also the "shame" of divorce, i understand why so many women choose to stay with their abusive husbands.. my mother is a good example.. i think sometimes she just wished for the best, for herself, for all of use.

anyway --  masculine jocks. hmm. i dated a cheerleader (or she dated me --- i was HER beard -- she was a lesbian!) so i had it in good with most of the jocks. spared, by sheer luck i guess...  imagine being hi-fived by the quarterback on the football team on a daily basis... very odd, especially since he was so damn cute. i didn't see much anti-gay stuff in HS, thank goodness... but i avoided gym class for the most part, and the vocational classes at the adult center for art and design helped to keep me away from the regular campus. it was nice to to have classes in a more mature environment, spared from the sometimes hideous actions of HS kids...

oh wait, i do remember one guy, seemingly obviously gay, he was just tiny and feminine and got called names a lot.. but he ended up senior class president, a very smart lad, and well respected by most students and the faculty in the long run. i remember feeling so happy and proud of him when he was elected, because i couldn't forget how he was pushed around as a sophmore... i knew that could have been me. and i wonder if he even was really gay...
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: michaelflanagansf on November 20, 2006, 10:26:39 PM
Okay...masculine jocks...well, this will run directly counter to what I was saying earlier about revenge, but I'm recounting what happened in the past.

I had to put up with a lot of this nonsense.  I had people asking me if I was 'queer' or 'a fag' from about age 14.  By this time I was starting to get P.O.ed, however.  So one particular time, when one of the bullies took exception to me and thought he was going to attack me he put me in a headlock.  Bad move.  I wonder if he was ever able to have children....and when he fell on the ground from the pain after I grabbed and twisted I started kicking him in the head and ribs [have I mentioned they told me I fought like a girl?].  They had to pull me off him.  He never bothered me again.

I did the same thing to one of the football players too - I got something of a reputation for 'fighting dirty'.  But they gave me a wide berth and left me alone till I moved away.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: melissasjack on November 20, 2006, 10:29:27 PM
Can I just say that Jimmy? I am sending you the worlds biggest hug? I sooo am.
You are a wonderful, amazing strong man.
((((((Jimmy))))))))

and Michael? You freakin' rock times a zillion and three.  :D

Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: melissasjack on November 20, 2006, 10:31:23 PM
I invented who I am now, and like me very much. Love to you all –

Lenny
and you, Lenny are incredible.
Sendin' you a zillion pounds of love.
Cuz why not be what you want to be? What is hope and dreams if you cant just be?
You rock.
Thank you for that lovely and inspiring post.
Hugs.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: BrokenOkie on November 20, 2006, 10:56:45 PM
Quote from: gnash
......i ended the relationship. it wasn't' easy to do but it was simple to see that i couldn't be with him anymore...

Bravo for you, (((Jimmy)))

Quote from: gnash
imagine being hi-fived by the quarterback on the football team on a daily basis...

Certainly more desirable than the 'hi-five' I got (which was not really a 'hi' five, rather five made into a fist, and with good aim & force, directed you-know-where).
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: BrokenOkie on November 20, 2006, 10:58:59 PM
...well, this will run directly counter to what I was saying earlier about revenge, but I'm recounting what happened in the past.

I beg to differ, (((Michael))).  Self defense is not revenge.  Hindsight, always being 20/20, tells me I should have kicked a** then & there, and to hell with taking names.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: michaelflanagansf on November 20, 2006, 11:34:21 PM
I beg to differ, (((Michael))).  Self defense is not revenge.  Hindsight, always being 20/20, tells me I should have kicked a** then & there, and to hell with taking names.

Good point - and it worked.  Bashing on the street are different - oftentimes the people involved were in vehicles, which changes everything.

But on the other hand - have you ever heard of this book 'The Gift of Fear'?  I think he makes some good points too.

http://www.amazon.com/Gift-Fear-Gavin-Becker/dp/0440226198/sr=8-2/qid=1164090667/ref=pd_bbs_2/104-0367235-7614373?ie=UTF8&s=books

Sometimes the best defense is getting the he** out of there!
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: bass51 on November 20, 2006, 11:55:51 PM
Okay...masculine jocks...well, this will run directly counter to what I was saying earlier about revenge, but I'm recounting what happened in the past.

I had to put up with a lot of this nonsense.  I had people asking me if I was 'queer' or 'a fag' from about age 14.  By this time I was starting to get P.O.ed, however.  So one particular time, when one of the bullies took exception to me and thought he was going to attack me he put me in a headlock.  Bad move.  I wonder if he was ever able to have children....and when he fell on the ground from the pain after I grabbed and twisted I started kicking him in the head and ribs [have I mentioned they told me I fought like a girl?].  They had to pull me off him.  He never bothered me again.

I did the same thing to one of the football players too - I got something of a reputation for 'fighting dirty'.  But they gave me a wide berth and left me alone till I moved away.

Love it, the classic K.E. story... if you have to fight, don't let 'em know you're comin', fight hard, and be determined to win....at any cost!
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: bass51 on November 20, 2006, 11:59:08 PM
I beg to differ, (((Michael))).  Self defense is not revenge.  Hindsight, always being 20/20, tells me I should have kicked a** then & there, and to hell with taking names.

Good point - and it worked.  Bashing on the street are different - oftentimes the people involved were in vehicles, which changes everything.

But on the other hand - have you ever heard of this book 'The Gift of Fear'?  I think he makes some good points too.

http://www.amazon.com/Gift-Fear-Gavin-Becker/dp/0440226198/sr=8-2/qid=1164090667/ref=pd_bbs_2/104-0367235-7614373?ie=UTF8&s=books

Sometimes the best defense is getting the he** out of there!
Isn't that how the animal kingdom works? Run first, get the hell away, out of fear, and fight last, only when cornered, but with only one goal - to win.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: gnash on November 21, 2006, 03:55:54 AM
hi melissa, thanks for the hugs :) :) :)  you know, when i read your affected me story i remembered your tears in texas and i got all teary eyed again...!!!   it was like you were standing there telling it to me. hugs back a zillion back to you...  we are ALL such brave souls, methinks, in the long run, we each will feel all the pain and joy that is imaginable.  :-\ :)

michael,  girls fight better than the boys, more fun to watch anyway.. ::) ;)     gosh, i never got in a campus fight after elementary school, thank goodness. did get beat up alot by my sister tho, until puberty struck and BANG i shot up to nearly six feet, to her five four. things changed drastically after that, the bitch left me alone (well, she was).  my sister had the same turbulent childhood i did, but three years older meant she suffered at the hands of my father earlier. so she was a big mess in high school. he realllly tore into her, so i can't blame her for her rage toward me, since she couldn't lash out at HIM or mother.  if i was emotionally stronger, or had known what to do, i would have hugged her and fought against him together, but it didn't turn out that way. :X...

anyway, she threw knives at me once -- ugh. one hit me in the leg in the upper thigh, i still have the scar. not much to do but run, when somebody is doing that!
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: ChrisW on November 21, 2006, 03:10:38 PM


and glenn, for that link on abusive relationships.... you know how they say that daughters sometimes go on to marry their fathers? or men like their fathers?

yes Jimmy they do, and when I listen to my husband of 36 years play the piano I always think of that, it is such a positive memory of my dad, you are SO brave to have found such a life-affirming way out of your own awful situation, massive hugs to you (((((JIMMY))))) and all the other astonishingly brave folks who have so triumphantly survived, lived to tell the tale and are a lesson to us all. I am so proud to have 'met' you all. Chris
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: gnash on November 22, 2006, 12:38:17 AM
... when I listen to my husband of 36 years play the piano I always think of that, it is such a positive memory of my dad...

that is such a nice image! and fortunate!  hmm. i guess i married my father-in-law -- d is so much like his dad, the more i get to know his father, the more i see the beauty in their similarities... i love the both, and his brother too. his family, my new family, more than makes up for what my own family lacked. so you see, i do see my angels through the clouds.

PS: they ride on chariots, with wheels of many colors. ;)
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: ChrisW on November 22, 2006, 12:51:05 PM
The 12/5/06 issue of 'The Advocate' has an article titled 'Demanding Healthy Love', which speaks about gay/lesbian partner abuse.  The article can be read online at:

http://www.advocate.com/currentstory1_w.asp?id=39543
Thanks Glenn, it all sounds too horribly familiar already, and makes me so happy that you and others have a place to share these stories, which you may well have felt before now that no-one could really understand or perhaps even believe. It's been a real eye-opener for me. Everyone should know where the escape hatches are and when to use them. This all reminds me of the womens movement years ago when, again, initially people were just shocked, and then the climate changed so that everyone knew it was definitely not OK to beat up your partner, and that criminal proceedings would normally result, with children being taken into care. These days people understand much better that the victims weren't 'asking for it', but just didn't know how to change things or how to get out. Very often they were escaping from a bad home situation too.

- and Jimmy, that is so good to hear, it's really heartwarming that you can feel like this, if you can do it, that must give hope to others. Founding a family is a basic human right, especially ones which include angels :)

Hugs to you all, Chris
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Elevation on November 22, 2006, 12:59:04 PM
thankyou so much to everyone who has posted their survival story here.
...i'm stuggling myself right now with putting together my own, inspired especially by this quote by Jackie in her post:
Quote from: paintedshoes
so many of us hurt in so many ways, yet the pain is the same:  the denial of self becomes the price of survival


during this "brokeback year", dircetly linked to the impact of the film and meeting so many of you at the BBQ, is the literal and very positive transformation that my life is now facing... but the price has been so high like for all of us and I'd like to share in what ways I survived and what the price was
 RL is busy (and sleep-deprivated!) so hopefully by the weekend if not sooner... I miss you all, so in the meantime, a ((((((big big hug to y'all)))) until.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: mcnell1120 on November 22, 2006, 01:14:16 PM
thankyou so much to everyone who has posted their survival story here.
...i'm stuggling myself right now with putting together my own, inspired especially by this quote by Jackie in her post:
Quote from: paintedshoes
so many of us hurt in so many ways, yet the pain is the same: the denial of self becomes the price of survival


during this "brokeback year", dircetly linked to the impact of the film and meeting so many of you at the BBQ, is the literal and very positive transformation that my life is now facing... but the price has been so high like for all of us and I'd like to share in what ways I survived and what the price was
 RL is busy (and sleep-deprivated!) so hopefully by the weekend if not sooner... I miss you all, so in the meantime, a ((((((big big hug to y'all)))) until.

(((Hugs))) to you Elvan...

Nellie  :-*
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: fritzkep on November 22, 2006, 01:31:09 PM
Yes ((((((((((((ELVAN))))))))))))), whenever you feel the time is right.

Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: michaelflanagansf on November 22, 2006, 01:33:41 PM
Elvan my friend - so nice to see you.  We will be glad to hear from you whenever you're ready.

mf
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: CellarDweller115 on November 22, 2006, 04:53:14 PM
Elvan, it is good to see you here!

As for sharing your story, only when you are ready......don't rush yourself.  Just remember, this is a safe haven, and we are all here for each other.

The stories may not be exactly the same, but they all have a common theme.  We've all had some type of pain or abuse put upon us, and we all survived it to become loving, productive human beings.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: conny on November 22, 2006, 09:22:01 PM
Elvan sweety,so proud of you already and you can dot it!!!!!
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: BrokenOkie on November 22, 2006, 11:55:42 PM
Welcome aboard, (((Elvan))).  We're here to listen anytime you need to talk.


And, for (((Everybody))).....

(http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h86/BrokenOkie/happy_thanksgiving.jpg)
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: gnash on November 23, 2006, 07:45:08 AM
a happy thanksgiving to you glenn, and to everybody!

hey elvan!!  :)
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: CellarDweller115 on November 23, 2006, 01:19:59 PM
This link was originally posted in "Auntie's 24 Hour Diner" by Hasse.

I felt it fit here, and with his permission, I've quoted him to bring it here.


I'm sure you've all seen this amazing BBM video before!  :'(


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sfln-GJ2D6E
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: ChrisW on November 23, 2006, 01:56:09 PM
Well I hadn't seen it before -
- and it's just reminded me that as a straight woman I had nothing against gay men anyway,
but I must admit I thought they lived on another planet, emotionally speaking.
 Now I know that may be largely because of this vicious cycle
which I feel is being broken before my very eyes,
love to you all this Thanksgiving.
 Chris x
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: michaelflanagansf on November 23, 2006, 03:27:05 PM
Well I hadn't seen it before and it's just reminded me that as a straight woman I had nothing against gay men anyway but I must admit I thought they lived on another planet, emotionally speaking. Now I know that may be largely because of this vicious cycle which I feel is being broken before my very eyes,
love to you all this Thanksgiving. Chris x


Go raibh mile maith agat Chris - and belated cheers for your harvest celebration over there!

Much love,

Michael
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: ChrisW on November 24, 2006, 02:17:29 AM
Thanks Michael,
love to you too, this cycle can be, must be, and will be broken
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: ImEnnisShesJack on November 25, 2006, 05:55:06 PM
Dave has an important announcement about the forum, which he asks all members to read:

http://davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=18085.msg602098#msg602098

We have set up a thread to discuss the situation. That discussion thread is linked from the post directly below the message from Dave. Follow the above link and you'll get to both.

Thanks
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Nax on November 27, 2006, 04:52:34 AM

I invented who I am now, and like me very much.

Me too, I am what I am; I am my own special creation ;)
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: bass51 on November 27, 2006, 08:31:05 PM

I invented who I am now, and like me very much.

Me too, I am what I am; I am my own special creation ;)

Good. Glad to know I am not alone!   ;)
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: desertrat on November 28, 2006, 02:26:31 AM

I invented who I am now, and like me very much.

Me too, I am what I am; I am my own special creation ;)

Good. Glad to know I am not alone!   ;)

i might be on the way there...when i stopped smoking 2 years ago, i didn't do it for health or financial reasons but because i thought it didn't fit to the person i was anymore. the person i envisioned that i hoped i would become or that was me didn't smoke. so i stopped smoking.
does that count ?  :)
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Nax on November 28, 2006, 03:01:52 AM
I think all of us make conscious changes to our outward persona's for varying reasons, it's good to reflect on what we want to present to others as "us" but also important to understand that we as individuals will have and should have goals that we want to set ourselves in this arena to meet our own desire for self acceptance.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Brokeback_1 on December 03, 2006, 01:50:50 AM
 This is very true, nax. As a young person I was as tough as possible. Very macho. The haircut, the walk, the behaviour all yelled stay away or you will regret it. " Don't F. with me."

The outside was carefully crafted as and for self defense purposes. I couldn't fight my way out of a paper bag yet always gave the impression that I would give back whatever you tried to give. In one or two cases i got into fights thinking ok, now I'm dead lol but it was carried through anyway. I tended to lose fights. Why?? Two reasons: I couldn't fight my way out of a paper bag and I just didn't want to hurt anybody. It seemed better to get hurt then cause damage myself. So if i could get out of one i did, and ended up being a very good at compromising without damaging egos, while defusing situations.

 There was one guy who scared the hell out of me but i didn't let him see it, spoke softly and quietly, tried to reach him. It defused the situation and we ended up getting drunk together. Turned out he was scared of ME and i was scared of HIM and neither of us actually wanted to or liked to fight roflmao. We got along so well with the cooldude facades off that we are still friends, he's coming to our wedding. He was one of the first people my own age with whom there were virtually no guards up on either side. And when I think on how old i was at the time it's sad that it took so long, but that's life, you need to go through things in order to get out of them.

I  hazily knew it at the time but it took older people to actually make clear what I was doing with that whole business....you could speak volumes with a walk, a haircut and ATTITUDE  at the time.....lol
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Amiennis on December 06, 2006, 11:34:55 AM
Dear Survivors,

Part two of my life story (part one can be found here http://davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=17887.75). Again, I apologise for the concise and sometimes inconsistent nature of it, and for posting it in several parts - it's the only way I can manage it.


1969 was the best year of my life until now. My mother decided to return from Curaçao (Netherlands Antilles) where we we’re then living, with my older brother an me, and file for divorce. We moved in with her parents, and it was like paradise. For the first time in my life, I felt acknowledged, appreciated, loved. My brother and I shared a small room in the attic – small but safe. The only safe place I ever had. I still dream of it.
My grandparents took care of us most of the time. To this day, my brother and I consider them as our real parents.
Alas, it had to end. My father came back and somehow he managed to force my mother to stay with him, or he would take us, her children, from her (remember, he had and has friends in high places). Paradise lost.

A very grey period started, from which I do not remember too much. I went to primary school, got high grades, but hated it anyway. I was sick all the time – jaundice, an ulcer at age 8, all kinds of disturbances in the motor system, pneumonia, on and on – which I did not mind, for at least I wouldn’t have to go to school. The only thing I wanted was to stay inside, quite cynical when I think of it now, because the real danger was not out in the big world, but exactly there, inside. There and then, my Ennis life began.
As far as I can remember, the sexual abuse stopped around age 10, but the physical and, most of all, the psychological abuse continued.

To the outside world, we must have seemed like a perfect upper middle-class family. We had a fine house, often two cars in front, went abroad for holidays, two children who were doing well in school, parents who played bridge with other couples and went to the theatre, etc.
However, on the inside, it was rotten to the core, and Cold War. Usually, very little was said, and if it was, it concerned criticism. No touching whatsoever – except for physical abuse. I distinctly remember how embarrassed I’d be when friends’ parents kissed when they got home, I thought it completely idiotic.

Around age 10, I began to realise, to feel - I mean, I was absolutely convinced that I was never going to make it as a grown-up. For some reason, I knew something was wrong with me.

1974, I went to grammar school. Same pattern, I was a very good student, but hated school.
I began to feel extremely insecure about the way I looked, started to really hate my body (remember, I had been indoctrinated for years). At about age 14, I decided to start eating less, with an interesting effect: at last I had the feeling I could control something: my body, of all things. I ate less and less and less. At age 15, being 6”2’ tall, I weighed 110 pounds. I remember lying in bed most of the day, in a kind of catatonic state, hoping to die if I would just stay in the same position.
In the end, the GP set me an ultimatum: either he would have me committed to a psychiatric ward, or I would have to start talking to a social worker. I was still convinced there was nothing wrong with me, I just wanted to die – so I agreed to do the latter, I wasn’t “crazy”. 
I also had to start eating again, feeling the pressure of the psychiatric ward, but managed to keep it down to an absolute minimum.
Apparently I was considered to be very suicidal, for my mother was never to leave me alone.

The sudden passing at age 68 of my grandmother, who I considered my real mother, was the turning point. It was a complete shock, which might very well have been the finishing stroke for me.
Instead, I remember eating my first small piece of bread at her funeral – my stomach just couldn’t take it, I was sick for the rest of the day.
Nevertheless, I started eating a bit more, little by little. On the other hand, I still felt the need for control, which is how I discovered laxatives. First, I stole then from the medicine cabinet, later, to prevent scenes, I bought them myself and hid them. Of course, I needed more and more, for my stomach and bowels got used to them. In the end, I had to take a whole pack a day, which I continued doing until age 30.
Apart from that, I decided to get my body into better shape, and started working out frantically, obsessively. Control being the key word here, as well.

I went back to school again – had been absent for months – but I wasn’t really able to concentrate on things any more. Still, I made it to the A-levels, and with good results – must have a good brain, otherwise I cannot explain it.
To this very day, I have serious concentration issues.

As an aside: I did do my best to get back at my father during puberty. I ritually stained his towel by wiping it on my … for years (in a place where he couldn’t see it – but I knew), I put sugar in the petrol tank, I used to pull the plug of the TV out, all kinds of nasty little things.



There will be more, but for now I'd like to conclude by stating that during the past seven weeks, the time I have been on forum, my life has taken a drastic change.
Let me just summarise by saying: I'm out of my trailer, and I intend to stay out of it. No way back.

Thank you, all.
Marc
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: fritzkep on December 06, 2006, 11:48:57 AM
Dearest ((((((((((((((((MARC))))))))))))))))), sent you a PM.

Big hugs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: BrokenOkie on December 06, 2006, 11:49:43 AM
Let me just summarise by saying: I'm out of my trailer, and I intend to stay out of it. No way back.

Thank you, all.
Marc

(((Marc)))   Welcome to the 'great outdoors', and thank you for sharing your life story with us.


Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: desertrat on December 07, 2006, 03:30:23 AM
don't want to repost the same thing again that i posted on the affected thread already...

so just (((((marc)))). go on. it will all come to a good end.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Nax on December 07, 2006, 04:29:40 AM
Marc baby I'm glad you're here {{{{{{{{{{{{{Marc}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

Remember Ennis was trapped character, but he was a work of fiction and you are not.  You are your own man now and there is a big world waiting for you, surviving hat you have stepping out into the big wide world should be a ciinch (although I'm well aware it's more complex than that).  Support is all important, I hope we here can help lift you up.

Hugs my friend.

N.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: CellarDweller115 on December 07, 2006, 05:09:01 AM
Marc, thank you for taking the time to share this all with us.

((((Marc))))
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: killersmom on December 07, 2006, 07:37:15 AM
Marc, despite all of this, you have had the courage to take that big step out of that trailer and have had the resolve to never return to that place again. This is the most important thing of all. I hope that you continue these strides forward, (as I know you will), and that you lean on all of us as frequently and as much as you need. We are all always here for each other, for that is what this family here is about.
Thank you for sharing with us and trusting us to continue to share with us your life's journey.
My thoughts and prayers continue to be with you at all times.
Linda
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Brokeback_1 on December 07, 2006, 02:45:14 PM
Marc you have backbone and guts, and never let anyone tell you otherwise......
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Brokeback_1 on December 20, 2006, 03:22:42 AM
well, if PM's speak the truth, we will be back here after the New Year lolol

Happy Christmas, EVERYONE!!!

and by the time we come back i will have said I Do...
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: jnov on December 22, 2006, 12:00:47 PM
i just learned of this thread a couple days ago.

i left it open on my desktop for a while, waiting to read.  i was trying to read all the way through the Ignorant Straight Girls thread first.  priorities!  sex first, then heavy emotional stuff.   :)

then i read the first page of this thread and shut myself down for a while.

then i closed the thread and thought i'd think about it for a while.

then i figured what the hell.  it is after 2 a.m. here anyway, why not get into it.

i closed down after reading the first page because i could not believe what i read there.

i read a post that sounded like me.  and i didn't think anyone else had a story like mine. 

very simply, sexual abuse by a brother.  but that is not what got me.  what got me was the part about it being "only" touching.  penetration never happened.

okay, i have been through, off and on, twenty years of counseling.  i'm doing good now.  except for the anger but hell, no one is perfect.  so on the one hand, i am okay.  i have a good perspective on what happened, the psychological ramifications, blah, blah, blah.

okay, here is the thing.  i always thought it wasn't bad enough to be bad.

everyone else has these story, experiences and they are really BAD.  really horrible.  your stories are ...  it is not a competition i know that.  and i am not trying to ... say anything about anyone else other than i am sorry each of you had to go through the pain.

but my story is not so horrible.  i wasn't raped.  it was a brother not a father.  (sort of, get to that later, maybe.)  he stopped when i finally made him stop, although he was leaving for college anyway so it just all became sort of moot. 

so i figured i had no right to think of myself as "abused."  because it wasn't really bad like what is written in all the books and what you hear in the news and from other people.

and besides, honestly, my brother is not a horrible person.  i can honestly say that it really was a case of teenage (for him) experimentation that just went way too far for way too long.  i was 4th grade and he is about 5 years older than me.  and it happened sometimes during the day. (and sometimes at night.) and although i knew it was wrong i didn't really mind it at first.  it felt good to my body (which completely mixed me up for a very long time!!!!!!!).  and it continued until i was in the 7th grade.  and my god damn best friend moved to another school in the 3rd grade but i still saw her until she moved out of state when i was in the 4th grade so i had no one to talk to. (oops, there's that anger again. hmmm.)

i see him during family things and it is not at all strained between him and i.  i finally wrote him a letter when i was an adult and he told me that he would do whatever he needed to do to help me.  he also said that if i told his wife she would probably divorce him but if i asked him to go to counseling or something he would.  when i got his letter back i emotionally shut down for two weeks.  seriously, i had a doctor's appointment, made before i got the letter, and it took every ounce of energy i had to say hi to the receptionist and be polite.  damn near killed me.  but eventually i pulled myself out of it.

this is hard to write.  because i find myself trying so hard to downplay everything.  which is exactly what i have been in counseling for twenty years to learn not to do!  slow to learn i guess.  you know it is one thing to know something in your head and a completely other thing to know something in your heart.

my head works everything out just fine!   :D

anyway, i am taking up way too much space and way too much of everyone's time.  sorry.

so i will wrap it up quickly.

the hardest part was when my mom finally found out.  (a babysitter told her.)  she asked me if it was true and then said she wasn't gonna say anything to my dad because she was afraid of how he might react toward my brother.  then she picked me up from school one day, took me to a priest who asked me if i wanted to talk about "anything" (i said no, what a surprise) and that was that.  nothing was ever said about it again until i brought it up years later.  her excuse is: back then no one talked about it and she didn't know what else to do.

the other hardest part was: i say it was a brother and not my dad but my dad did fondle me once (only once) but he was the kind of guy you just didn't feel "safe" around.  know what i mean?

and the other hardest part was it completely changed my personality.  and as i look back on my life, i wonder sometimes how my life would have turned out different if it hadn't of ever happened.  so much wasted potential.  so much wasted time.  so much waste.

i was actually in counseling (again) about 4-5 years ago and my counselor said: "you are the poster child for underachievers."  i started laughing and agreed with him and he kind of startled.  i don't think he realized he had said it out loud!

anyway, sorry to take up time and space.  and i know my story is not ...  whatever.

and i don't expect a lot of ... whatever.

so that is all now.

except i may be back if that is okay.

fuck, now i have to hit the post button.   :-\

okay, this is way more harder than going to counseling.  there i am paying the person for their time.  here i am just taking up yours.

and i know "way more harder" is not grammatically correct.    (sorry, stalling for the courage to hit the post button and in doing so i am just taking up more space and time.  DAMN)

sorry one last time.

oh well, here goes.  (and by the way, i may disappear for a few days if i ever get around to actually hitting the post button.)  :)


Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: desertrat on December 22, 2006, 12:36:56 PM

i always thought it wasn't bad enough to be bad.
....
anyway, i am taking up way too much space and way too much of everyone's time.  sorry.

jnov, i understand exactly what you mean. therefore, i will neither give you the "no pain is worse or less worse than the one of others" neither the "everybody is equally important" talk. because i'm pretty sure you know that your pain is as real and as hurtful as the one others here feel. and that we'll listen to you - the same way we listen to everybody. because that's what we are all here for - to support each other. but i'm pretty sure that you KNOW this intellectually - but your heart doesn't want to feel it and you feel unworthy and unimportant. right ? that's the way i feel most of the time. i also had the feeling for a very long time (and still have it pretty often) that i wasn't abused, or to say it correct, that i don't have the right to see myself as a victim of abuse, because it was my boyfriend. i chose for him (most others didn't have the choice - they were either abused by family members or by strangers) and i stayed with hime despite of the abuse.

i'm not sure what destroyed my my sense of self worth more and more profoundly - the actual abuse or the feeling of not-being-worthy-to-call-it-abuse. it left me really low down, and even now, more than 10 years later, it seems when i start thinking about it again, the protective layer i built up crumbles down and leaves me at the floor again (which makes me regret having even talked about it - which, in turn, drives me even further into my closet).

i hope it is not too late for the likes of us, jnov - unfortunately it's us who have to start the healing process: by acknowledging that we have been abused, and that we deserve help and compassion.

Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: TwistsBitch on December 22, 2006, 02:30:06 PM
...and the other hardest part was it completely changed my personality. and as i look back on my life, i wonder sometimes how my life would have turned out different if it hadn't of ever happened. so much wasted potential. so much wasted time. so much waste...

This is a big feature of my reflections on my past & where that anger comes in: anger at the abuser, anger at parents & friends, anger at "normal" people, anger at myself.  Somedays it feels neverending, as I think I hear in your post too.  Probably a reason for identifying with Ennis, as he surely wonders what his life could have been.  Logically there are too many variables to even think about how we would have been without certain experiences.  Like you say, the head is fine with this, if only those pesky feelings didn't get in the way.

Basically just wanted to say I hear you & understand you, & all credit for making that strong post. 

Don't apologise for any aspect of this post btw!
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: paintedshoes on December 22, 2006, 03:49:08 PM
jnov, thank you for having the, what, courage (?) to push that button.  I know first hand what that is like.  I, too, for the longest time, wondered if I had any right to call what happened to me an abuse, since it was "only" kissing and touching, not rape.  I spent long years hating myself for "letting" it happen.  I did not seek any kind of professional counseling, never thought it was "worth" it.  Or is that:  I wasn't worth it.  Whatever.

I have learned here, painfully at times, that I am worth it.  So are you!  Worth acknowledging what happened to you, worth fighting against that feeling of "it wasn't that bad."  It WAS bad, what happened to you.  You have every right to be angry, and to seek consolation from any source.  Here, I have learned from personal experience, help and consolation exist.  And I have taken advantage of it, frequently.  And have started down the road of true healing.  Please, let us be here for you, as well?  We want to, you know.
==============

Martina, my darling sister, you have opened a Pandora's box of emotion, haven't you?  You can't close it now, nor should you want to.  Please, don't ever be sorry you told the truth about what happened.  When you fall to the floor, I, and many others, are there to pick you up, if you will allow us, not because we "have to", but because we want to.  We want to share your burden until you are ready to lay it down for good.  So that you will never regret opening that box, and letting the demons out.

-Jackie
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: CellarDweller115 on December 22, 2006, 04:14:37 PM
okay, this is way more harder than going to counseling.  there i am paying the person for their time.  here i am just taking up yours.


You are not "taking up our time".....you are sharing your experiences with people who have gone through similar experiences, and learned to turn to each other for love and support.

I am glad that you hit the "post" button, and decided to share with us.  Thank you for putting your trust in us.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: desertrat on December 22, 2006, 04:15:44 PM
I have learned here, painfully at times, that I am worth it. 
you are ! we all are worth it.

Quote
Martina, my darling sister, you have opened a Pandora's box of emotion, haven't you?

you can say that, yes  :-\


lots of love to you, sweet sister. (((jackie)))
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: paintedshoes on December 22, 2006, 04:26:30 PM
I have learned here, painfully at times, that I am worth it. 
you are ! we all are worth it.

Quote
Martina, my darling sister, you have opened a Pandora's box of emotion, haven't you?

you can say that, yes  :-\


lots of love to you, sweet sister. (((jackie)))
Oh, my darling sister...you know I have very broad shoulders, honey...anytime, anytime.   :-*
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: ChrisW on December 22, 2006, 04:37:31 PM
jnov, please don't apologise for taking up our time. I feel so lucky that i have nothing bad to report from that crucial period in my life, i didn't have a brother at all. I beleive that this thread has been a vey important one, because I think that real healing can take place - but your brain has to - as it were - resolder the connections. The pleasure/pain links have to be regrown. I think that's why it's possible to be 'rational' but still not be over something like this. The healing powers of this forum are remarkable and real and I'm sure that sharing will help. Much love and hugs. You are not to blame for what happened and you are a worthwhile and wonderful person. Chris x.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Brokeback_1 on December 22, 2006, 05:50:27 PM
It's sort of 'my fault'  that jnov found this thread as I gave her the link after a question was asked.

For any pain you've had, I'm truly sorry Beth. And --you will understand this after a few days--I am VERY GLAD you came here and posted what happened. This is a very good place. A very Good Place. You will find nothing but love and support.

Much Love,
Jack
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: mcnell1120 on December 22, 2006, 06:15:58 PM
(http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k299/heaven_sent61350/believe.jpg)

Have a wonderful Christmas to you all

Nellie
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: jnov on December 23, 2006, 12:43:07 AM
you are all so wonderful.

Quote from: desertrat
but your heart doesn't want to feel it and you feel unworthy and unimportant. right

bingo - sometimes.  i have gotten to a place where i feel pretty good about myself most of the time.  but there are times, situations, days when i think exactly what you said.  some of us were having a conversation in one of the threads a while ago and we got caught up in the definition of "scarred" vs "damaged."  (sounds so silly now.)  but i hate how the abuse leaves scars that never go away.  i just wish i could some how undo what was done so i could go back to being the person i was before it all happened. 

of course, on the other hand, i hope it has made me a more compassionate, understanding person.  (that is, on the days i am not being a complete bitch!  :D ;))

Quote from: twistsbitch
the head is fine with this, if only those pesky feelings didn't get in the way.

those damn feelings.  life would be so much easier without them.  8)  i function very well on the intellectual level.  too bad that is not all there is.  ::) :P

Quote from: paintedshoes
I did not seek any kind of professional counseling, never thought it was "worth" it.  Or is that:  I wasn't worth it.  Whatever.

"whatever."  exactly.   :)

cellardweller115
thank you.

Quote from: montezumae
The healing powers of this forum are remarkable and real

as i mentioned, i have lots of experience with counseling.  but writing here makes me shaky inside in a way i am not in counseling.  i think because of this healing power that you speak.  it is awesome and scary at the same time.  :)

and JACK, yeah you buddy!!  this is all your fault!!   ;) :D  i'm blaming you for any healing that goes on here buddy-boy!   ;) :D
(thank you.  :-*)


finally,
mcnell1120
love the poem.  printed it out.  thank you.

now i am gonna go back and finish reading pages 2-whatever it is.  right now it is the middle of the afternoon so i am feeling good and strong.  but i will warn you all in advance that i am a night owl and often at 1 or 2 a.m. i may come back on here to post, write some more stuff out, and vent.

 AND, i am about to have one week of by-my-self time.  no kids, no family, just me in the house for one week!  yeah!  but it might also be prime diggin time, if you know what i mean.  i've been "saving" BBM for viewing for this time and that always completely wrings me out (and not in a positive, life-affirming way!)

and i thank you all in advance from the bottom of my oh-so-confused-and-bruised-heart for all your kind words, your healing thoughts and your humor!  (hint, hint  ;))

okay, jack, you got me in.  now you're stuck with me.   8)
so are you married YET?  :D

beth

edited: to add my name.

<Edited by BrokenOkie to properly display quotes>
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: BrokenOkie on December 23, 2006, 01:28:26 AM
Beth - Warm hugs and welcome to this little corner of the forum!  I'm so glad you bit the bullet and clicked that 'Post' button.  I'm sure you'll continue to experience the understanding, compassion, love and that healing power that keeps being given here.  For me, opening up (as frightening as it was) and then experiencing all those wonderful gifts from folks here has helped me to be more free of the past.  I wish the same and more for you.

Hugs,
Glenn   
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: jnov on December 23, 2006, 01:36:38 AM
thanks glenn.   :)

and now: fixing my quotes.  how do you DO that?  i swear i can't figure it out.   ???
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Brokeback_1 on December 23, 2006, 01:47:41 AM
No Beth, not yet--as a matter of fact we are still snowbound in  Colorado, can't get out until late Christmas Eve....and i am very glad you are here.

Jack
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: jnov on December 23, 2006, 09:15:51 AM
i just finished reading through this thread and i am speechless with wonder and awe.

because i am filled with hope.

those probably sound like strange words after i just read stories of horror and cruelty.  but what fills me with hope is the amazing goodness in all of you. 

the evilness of this world did its best to make each of you its own and every single one of you steadfastly refused.  every single one of you refused to give in to the evil, refused to continue the cycle of hate and destruction.

and it fills me with hope for our world. 

love always wins in the end.  ALWAYS.

but it tends to be quiet and soft and unobtrusive.  so people think it is weak.  but it is stronger than any evil out there.  and you have all consciously chosen to be part of the creative energy of this world.

so thank you for that. 

really.  thank you.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: jnov on December 23, 2006, 10:06:51 AM
so now i've done the "love is the greatest thing" thing.  (which by the way i completely believe in.  it is my religion.)

but you want to know what really pisses me off?!

all of this.  all of this really pisses me off.

all of the cruelty, all the unnecessary hatred, hurtfulness and harm.

i mean, if people don't want kids then don't have kids.  that's fine.  but if you have kids, DON'T FUCKING HURT THEM.

the world will never be a perfect place.  i get that.  really i do.  accidents will happen.  disease will continue.  there will always be people with less money, less opportunities, less food on their tables.

but is it really necessary to add INTENTIONAL destruction to the agenda?

i was ranting to a friend of mine about how much i hate intolerant people.  and she, because she is a good person, gently told me that by hating intolerant people i was being intolerant.  and i said I DON'T CARE.

(and then i said: fine god damn it i'll be tolerant of the god damn intolerant people but i don't have to like them while i do it!) 
(i can be so open and loving sometimes.  ::))

i mean really, i feel the waste of so much amazing potential.  just think of what our world could be like today if people would just stop being intentionally cruel to other people.  okay, i am even willing to let adults be cruel to other adults.  but only if they were all treated well as children!

shouldn't children be protected? children should be loved.  all that incredible potential just waiting.

and the friggin pain.  it pisses me off.  all the pain in little bodies that shouldn't have to feel it, don't know how to deal with it, don't understand why it is happening to them.   and most kids (all kids) think it is their fault. 

great, now i've managed to depress myself. 

ya know, we were having a conversation about jack and how he feels worthless.  and someone said yeah but jack was just pissed on by his father, ennis was made to see a horrible murdered body.  and i thought:  JUST pissed on?  what the fuck?  feeling worthless is no big deal?  feeling like you have no worth as a human being is nothing?  feeling like you are damned, literally, and your soul is black and you are going to hell, LITERALLY, is no big deal?

(absolutely NOT throwing bad thoughts toward the person who said this.  the way i phrased it above is i am sure NOT what that person meant or was trying to imply.  it was my read only because of my particular background.)

when i was a freshman in college i used to walk back to my dorm after class saying out loud (but under my breath, wouldn't want other people to hear) over and over: i don't want to be dead, i just don't want to be this unhappy.

but i figured it was all i deserved. 

okay, back to the anger now.  so much easier to be angry than depressed.  although i do depression a lot better than anger.  we women are not supposed to be angry.  no, no, be the nice polite little girl.  go to church and pray.

i remember the nuns taught us about JOY.  we were to always remember it.  first Jesus, then Others and Yourself last.  its such a great word and such a great emotion and they almost ruined it for me.  luckily i took it back from them.  now i love joy. 

okay, enough ranting for one night.

peace and joy to you all.  blessed be.

beth
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: CellarDweller115 on December 23, 2006, 10:07:09 AM
I'm so glad that our stories have touched you, just as yours has touched ours.

Be assured that others will be reading your story, and even if they choose not to share their own, you have helped them by letting them see they are not alone in their pain, and that recovery and a positive outlook are possible!
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: gres on December 23, 2006, 10:07:09 AM
Beth, glad you had the courage to push that button and share your story....In a way it sets a part of youself free and makes you feel a whole lot better, i think. I, too have read this thread through and i'm really glad that it exists offering so much support and comfort to  those who need to and i wish and believe some healing can be done here by talking about it and sharing it...Lots of love, my dear...And wish things would be different for all of you and none have had nothing to write in here.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: jnov on December 23, 2006, 10:12:39 AM
I'm so glad that our stories have touched you, just as yours has touched ours.

Be assured that others will be reading your story, and even if they choose not to share their own, you have helped them by letting them see they are not alone in their pain, and that recovery and a positive outlook are possible!

yeah, when i am not ranting and raving!   :D :D

(hi gres!)
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: BrokenOkie on December 23, 2006, 12:36:38 PM
Christmas Hugs for Everyone!

(http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h86/BrokenOkie/hugs.gif)

Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Brokeback_1 on December 23, 2006, 12:51:40 PM
rant all you need to rant.
it works
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: paintedshoes on December 23, 2006, 05:30:55 PM
Beth, brokeback_1 is right.  Rant all you want.  We have all done it, and it does help.  That said and done...

Merry Christmas, sweet heart (separate words intentional.)  All is well, here on our beloved Forum.  You are with friends.   :-* :-* :-*
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: jnov on December 23, 2006, 11:00:51 PM
Beth, glad you had the courage to push that button and share your story....In a way it sets a part of youself free and makes you feel a whole lot better, i think. I, too have read this thread through and i'm really glad that it exists offering so much support and comfort to  those who need to and i wish and believe some healing can be done here by talking about it and sharing it...Lots of love, my dear...And wish things would be different for all of you and none have had nothing to write in here.


this and J&E's C&C!

wouldn't it be nice.   :-[ :)

merry christmas, happy hanuka, happy kwanzaa, selamat hari raya, happy new year.

jack, thanks again for showing me the way here.  i am blessed and awed to be in the company of so many amazing people.  bless you all.

peace and joy,
beth
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: gres on December 25, 2006, 05:02:10 AM
this and J&E's C&C!

wouldn't it be nice.   :-[ :)

I haven't been  there, myself but my sister has been...I asked her if it is ok with her to write about it in here and she said go ahead so here it is...She was the reciever of sexual harassment from a close relative (uncle). I can't bring myself to think how this man did what he did. We are a very big and close family...at least this is what we had been taught/how we have been raised....When this happened i was very angry at him and i still am-it's been 10 years since.... I can't possibly imagine how this must have been felt, i mean if i myself am so angry then how much more  angry my sister may feel and the pain and the frustration--as i said we're a very close family and i can't accept how this man did that, to take advantage of....--he spoiled everything and of course we have cut any bonds with him. All those times  i've met him accidentaly i wanted to yell at him and ask him why he did it, what the hell he was thinking....But thank God  my sister is doing ok now and i hope we won't run into him never again in our lives for my sister's sake......
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: jnov on December 26, 2006, 03:47:54 AM
hi gres,
your anger is well placed.  i hope your sister can express her anger as well as you do on her behave.  so many times, we direct the anger toward ourselves, thinking "it was all our fault."

but to have a close relationship within your family is so healing AND to have one's family be open about what happened, see it as the trauma it is and then direct the blame toward the abuser is, in my opinion, so supportive.

in my case, as you know, the abuser was within the family but, more damaging, the silence, the secrecy and the actions to protect the abuser.  these actions on the part of my parents were much, much more damaging than the abuse itself for me.

hugs and good thoughts to you, your sister and your whole family.

peace and joy,
beth
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: mcnell1120 on December 31, 2006, 07:58:11 AM
                           (http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g60/trixie75/Misc/newyear4.gif)
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: CellarDweller115 on December 31, 2006, 08:00:44 AM
For everyone who has posted here (myself included) my wish for us all for the New Year that that we will continue to be open, continue to turn to each other for support and love, and that we will continue to heal.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: jnov on December 31, 2006, 11:12:12 AM
happy new year to everyone.

i am already two hours into the new year.  so far so good!   :D
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: paintedshoes on December 31, 2006, 12:56:02 PM
For everyone who has posted here (myself included) my wish for us all for the New Year that that we will continue to be open, continue to turn to each other for support and love, and that we will continue to heal.
Amen!   :-*
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: BrokenOkie on December 31, 2006, 05:14:35 PM
Wishing everyone a Happy New Year of good health, happiness and the joys of life!  Thank you all for sharing your deeply personal stories, your understanding and your support of one another.  May that love continue for each of us as we look forward, not back.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Brokeback_1 on January 02, 2007, 06:01:14 AM
A Happy New Year to all of US.

I'd have posted yesterday...except yesterday, I just shut down. Took a day and spent most of it asleep. It was a reaction from all the nuttiness around here. As my fiance calmed down, I started to get nuts. So I said screw this, let them all complain as much as they all want and took  the time needed for me.  It's now not big deal, this wedding, it will go off, it will be fine and that's that.

Who would have thought, lasrt January 2, that this year I'd be getting married? All because i went to the movies and it gave the needed catalyst.....

Happy New Year!!!!!
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: jnov on January 02, 2007, 08:27:39 AM
you know, there is a post i have been meaning to write.  since a day or two after i wrote my first one here.  but i keep hesitating.  (as i do now in between each sentence.)

i have not been happy with my first post.  not because it is not true.  it is factually true.  but it is not emotionally honest.  and i feel i have been dishonest with all of you.  and you have all been so open and honest that i need to rectify the situation.

the post felt very sanctimonious to me.  hemming and hawing.  belittling my own situation.  i think (and i think much better than i feel), i think because it is far easier for me to make light of what happened to me than it is to face the pain of what happened.  which is very conflicted for me because what happened to me was, not in competition with but in comparison to most of your stories, not so bad.

(killersmom: please, please, please understand that i am not belittling you or your life story in any way since it is so similar to mine.  this is completely about me, not anyone else. and in fact it was your honesty that led me to feel it was alright for me to post my story in the first place so thank you.)

to cut to the chase, i have never had a relationship with anyone in my life.  well, maybe that is too harsh.  i have slept with many men.  (no women.  yet.  not because the thought is distasteful to me but because the opportunity has never presented itself.  i have no idea how i would react in real life it it ever did.)

but the longest i have ever had a "boyfriend" is about 2 months.  and that was when he and i were very young and immature so i'm not sure how much of a "relationship" it was.

i have mentioned on some of these threads about my kids and my family.  "my kids" are actually my brother's children.  he and his wife divorced, he got sole custody, she lives in another country and the kids started going wild.  he works about 600 hours a week (okay maybe not 600, more like 400) and he called one day and said he needed help.

i have worked either with kids or for the benefit of kids my whole life.  i am an attorney in the area of child rights, specifically abuse/neglect.  that is technically accurate.  it would be more accurate to say that i am educated as an attorney (and licensed to practice in my state) but i never had a paying job as an attorney because two days before i was offered the postion of staff attorney at juvenile court i committed myself to move to another country to help my brother raise his children long term.  so now i live with them and take care of the kids and i will until the youngest leaves for college, which is the year 2014.  at which time i move back to the states permanently and start living as a single woman again, finding a job and supporting myself.  (the idea is both thrilling and terrifying.)

i had interned at juvenile court for the six months prior, as that is the only way to get your foot in the door there.  and when i was trying to decide if i was gonna give up my whole life to go take care of my brother's kids, everyone, and i mean everyone, told me how ridiculous the idea was.  i had just spent five years going to law school as a night student, working full time during the day.  i was half way through getting my masters of law.  i was on the path, finally after years of not really knowing what i was doing career-wise.

but how could i face myself every day going to work to help other people's kids knowing i had turned my back on kids in my own family when i was in a position to help.  if i had already had the job i'm sure i would have said no without any qualms.  but i was in a position to go.  and how hypocritical of me would it be to say no to my own family?  so i said yes and i know it was the right decision.  i have no doubts about that.  but i do have what i call my "what if" days.  what if i had stayed and taken the job?  i wanted to be a judge, that is why i went to law school.  and that job would have put me on the path to becoming a juvenile court judge.  but the "what if" days do not discount the rightness of my decision. 

although i do sometimes, briefly, quickly and very hesitantly, wonder if i said yes because it was the easy route.  instant family.  a good reason to not have to work to find and create a relationship.  but all this is an aside. 

i wonder sometimes if i am being punished in this life for some horrific acts i committed in a previous life.  i don't "really" believe that.  i don't intellectually believe that but sometimes ...  or maybe the abuse i suffered, not the sexual abuse, well, okay maybe that too, but the emotional abuse i suffered by my mother, maybe that made me incapable of interacting with another person in whatever way is necessary to create and continue a relationship.

i look around at others and ask why.  all of my freinds are married, or divorced which means they were once married.  what do they have, what do they do that i don't have or do?  i know, again, intellectually that that is a pointless question.  but all i ever wanted in life, from the time i was a child, all i ever wanted was to get married, have children and stay at home and raise my kids.  so now i am doing that, thanks to my brother.  only now as i get to the age of "no return" i think: this is it.  i will never know what it feels like to be pregnant.  i will never know what it feels like to be connected to another person on a daily, continuous level.  i will never meet another person and we, we will never make a life path for ourselves.

and i wonder how my life would have been different if my childhood had been different.  and i feel it is my great failure as a human being that i have somehow been unable to rise above it all and find someone to love me.  or someone to love.

i have only fallen in love with one man in my life.  and he was engaged the whole time i knew him!!  at least i think it was love.  at the very least it was the closest to love i ever got.  and since my religion is love and what i believe in is the creation and goodness and eternity of love, then where does that leave me with my life?

yes, i am fulfilling a purpose in raising my brother's kids.  and they are my kids.  and will be for the rest of my life.  and i do feel that what i am doing is important and real.

but...

i have still never been able to engage in a relationship with another adult and create and form and continue an intimate relationship with another person.  and i ask myself why?  and i feel like a failure.

and tomorrow i will wake up and go through my day and my life is fine.  but when i am 96 years old and lying on my deathbed will i still be asking myself why?  and will i still feel like a failure?  i hope not.  cause that would really suck!

(and not in a positive, life-affirming way.      for all you qaf'ers out there.  ;))
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: conny on January 02, 2007, 09:27:13 AM


and i wonder how my life would have been different if my childhood had been different.  and i feel it is my great failure as a human being that i have somehow been unable to rise above it all and find someone to love me.  or someone to love.

(and not in a positive, life-affirming way.      for all you qaf'ers out there.  ;))

oh honey dont put yourself down like that.i think you can be so proud of yourself and you did such a beautiful  thing by taking care of your brother`s children. they may not have been born cause of you,but they are who they are now in a big way cause of you for sure!!
and there always will be if what,or if i would have done tha....then what. i know!
so hon it`s definatly NOT failure,you did your very best and you may haven`t  found someone to love you yet. But your still on this world right,your still alive,so keep the faith and you will be found by someone!!!
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: jnov on January 02, 2007, 11:28:13 AM
you're a sweetheart.  thanks!

i didn't say what i said to elicit a bunch of compliments or "ata boys" as my dad used to say.  i really said it to be respectful toward all of you.  i felt i had been, as i said, emotionally dishonest and you all deserve better than that.  and i demand more than that from myself.

but thanks for the kind words.   :)
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: CellarDweller115 on January 02, 2007, 12:10:59 PM
jnov,

I was impressed with your first post, and I'm just as impressed with your latest.

Thank you for taking the time to put this in words, and share this with us.  We're glad to have you here.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: desertrat on January 02, 2007, 12:59:12 PM
jnov, may i first say that your life defintely isn't a failure in regard of your professional choices - sacrificing your own career to care for your nephews and nieces is not a failure but a sign of personal courage, of a big heart, of the wonderful person you are !
concerning your love life, i hope one day you'll find the right therapy - to help you overcome what happened to you. and then, once you've found yourself, i hope you'll find the right person (which i'm actually sure of once you'll manage to open your eyes to the world and see yourself the way you actually are). finally, i wish you happiness till the end of your days.

be patient. it's only time. (from one qaf' er to the other  ;))
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: sugarcheryl on January 03, 2007, 05:28:50 PM
Where to begin?......

I was born in May of 1970.....good year.....my brother was born in August of 1973....not so good of a year. I had a great infancy we shall say, until my bro was born. He was born with cholic (cried incessantly) My father was not a patient man by any means. He was a drinker and from what I found out when I got older, he was a bit of a drug user....but mostly a heavy beer drinker. He was very verbally abusive. We always walked on glass when my dad was around. He actually was quite awful. I hated him for almost my entire life. He was more awful to my brother. He would "spank" us when we were bad. Im not saying that he would just haul off and hit us for nothing. But my mom would always say, "just wait til your father gets home." Scared the holly piss out of us. 9 out of 10 she would tell him and we would then get the belt.....buckle side. Still has that belt and I cringe everytime I see it. His father (my grandfather) was pretty much the same way...however my grandmother was not. She was the best grandma in the world :D My grandfather died when I was very young (lung cancer) so I never knew him and have no memory of him...even in pictures...I recall nothing.

As me and my brother grew...my brother with drew from the world more and more and I came to find out later that he had been "abused" in school....with children being cruel to him and calling him names. I guess for most it would just roll off your back as you age, but with him he harbored these things as to be truths. I also found out later that he had been sexually molested by at the time my best freinds older brother. I had no idea and was sickened when he told me that. But as usuall with everything he would say...."but im okay....that didnt do anything to me." Yeahhhhh righttttt. My father was impossible as we grew up and was more and more angry with my brother and in turn I got it just for being there. I think the verbal abuse stung more then the spankings. He would hate us and call us terrible names....that some of which even I carried into adulthood.

I always felt and my brother too that my mother was not really there for us. She seemed to instigate alot of the abuse, by "telling" on us. Not really being a mom. So we always found her to be weak. She would later tell me that she did talk to my dad and that they would fight about it....but we never saw or heard anything....so to us it seemed like she just didnt care. I know I know....you dont fight infront of your kids.....but sometimes....just sometimes....it makes you feel like someone acutally cares about you. This went on well into my adult life. My father ruined Christmas one year for my brother and he stayed in his room the whole time. And pretty much ruined Christmas period for him forever. My dad was just not a good dad....or a good person for that matter. He was mean and nasty and I just hated him..............

But...........time heals all wounds....and when I became a mother I witnessed a true miracle and as I type this now tears well up in my eyes. As he held my little girl for the first time.....the weight of the world had been lifted from this man, as he sobbed and said this is where my life begins....this is the changing point. He has been an awesome grandpa to my daughter and they share a very very special relationship that for along time I was jealous about. How could she take what was supposed to be mine? This loving man....but as I watched them together all that didnt matter anymore, because the change in this man was like night and day. And I talked to my dad alot and he has poured his heart out to me and begged my forgiveness and although it was not overnight....I eventually "forgave" him. However....the damage was so intensely done for my brother that he could no longer deal with his past, his future, nor his present and ended his life by suicide in 2002. My father took it all upon himself and it nearly killed him as well.........but as I said above.....time heals all wounds and time has healed his wound enough that he can talk about my brother without breaking down. He left behind a beautiful daughter who will never know her daddy.....is that better? I dont know....he had bipolar and in general was just not a happy man.

<phew> that kinda felt good! :D
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: mcnell1120 on January 03, 2007, 06:32:44 PM
Thanks for sharing your story hon....I'm happy for you,happy that you forgave and can move on....you're a strong person.

Hugs

Nellie
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: CellarDweller115 on January 03, 2007, 06:49:42 PM

SugarCheryl, thank you so much for taking the time to add your stories to ours.  I'm glad you felt open to sharing with us, and that you feel better having posted it.

One thing that I want to quote from your post:



As me and my brother grew...my brother with drew from the world more and more and I came to find out later that he had been "abused" in school....with children being cruel to him and calling him names. I guess for most it would just roll off your back as you age, but with him he harbored these things as to be truths.


Having been through this myself, I can tell you that abuse from peers is hard to deal with.  Everyone wants to be accepted by their peers, and when it doesn't happen, it can be crushing.

I'm sorry that your brother is not here to be with you now, but I'm so happy that you have found a way to forgive, and move on.  Like Nellie said, you are a strong person!
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: paintedshoes on January 03, 2007, 09:54:25 PM
Sugarcheryl, so many of the points of your story are similar to mine, though I am old enough to be your mother.  I am so happy for you that you were able to make a sort of peace with your father.  Nothing worthwhile is ever easy.  Your brother's death must be incredibly difficult to bear, and you have my deepest sympathy.  I am so thrilled that you were able to open up here about your history.  Biggest hugs, dear lady.   :-*
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: sugarcheryl on January 03, 2007, 09:55:23 PM
Thank you all....finding this forum to me was a GOD send. After seeing BBM and with all the emotions that I had....I just didnt know what to do. I have found solice with my new friends and am healing......healing. I can gather from the forum that most of you have been here for this entire year....and still some suffer from the anguish of the movie. I hope that I am not one to suffer for that long. I guess I shouldnt say "suffer" but sometimes....i'll tell you what....thats what it feels like. You guys and this forum have become my "counsoling" and I cant thank you enough. For 2 days straight after seeing BBM I honestly with all my heart and soul thought I was losing my mind and my grip on reality. When I googled BBM forums and found Dave.....I had found my peace. Thank you.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: jnov on January 04, 2007, 07:05:51 AM
hi sugarcheryl,

welcome to the place with the best people on earth.  seriously, the people on these threads (and on this one in particular) are amazing people with hearts that ...  well i can't think of anything good enough to say!  :D

what really hit me about your story was how courageous you were when your daughter was born.  as you said, how painful it must have been for you to witness your father, who had been so horrible to you, now become this great grandfather!  how unfair is that!!

but you were brave enough to allow him to be a great grandfather.  you could have not of course.  you could have raged against him and poisoned the relationship between him and your daughter.  but by being strong and courageous, you allowed the greatest of gifts to your daughter, her relationship with her grandfather, but you also allowed room for your own healing.

one more cycle of destruction broken forever.  i would like to say thank you.  because of your courage, you have made my world a better place, even if we live on different continents and never meet. 

thank you.

beth
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: sugarcheryl on January 04, 2007, 10:58:57 AM
OMG! Beth....your words brought tears to my eyes. I totally agree with you. One thing that was most important to me in my life with my children was I....I was going to be the one to break the cycle of abuse. There was no way I was going to pass that along....nor was I going to pass along the bitterness that I at first felt. I saw a life time of abuse and bitterness and sadness lift from my fathers chest the second he held my baby. The world was no longer the same for him. And for that I am soooo proud of him. I am also beyond proud of him for coming to terms with what he did and apologize to me....to my face. He was not one to say, "nope....that did not happen" He knew of it all and my heart is full for him. Thank you Beth for your kind words.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: jnov on January 04, 2007, 11:29:00 AM
OMG! Beth....your words brought tears to my eyes. I totally agree with you. One thing that was most important to me in my life with my children was I....I was going to be the one to break the cycle of abuse. There was no way I was going to pass that along....nor was I going to pass along the bitterness that I at first felt. I saw a life time of abuse and bitterness and sadness lift from my fathers chest the second he held my baby. The world was no longer the same for him. And for that I am soooo proud of him. I am also beyond proud of him for coming to terms with what he did and apologize to me....to my face. He was not one to say, "nope....that did not happen" He knew of it all and my heart is full for him. Thank you Beth for your kind words.

first and formost: be proud of yourself.   :)

peace and joy.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Elevation on January 06, 2007, 10:36:15 AM
Thankyou for your beautiful posts.
yes, ending the cycle of abuse is something to be very proud of, it is really something amazing that will impact positively to generations to come!!

... well, life walks in mysterious ways, I'll say. Sometimes it's hard to understand why we must go through the difficult and painful times. (And I'm not so sure there is a better answer to that than the effects of bad casuse--oftentimes people say everything has a meaning but I don't know for sure about how so many vicious things that happen could be meant to be...)

I for one have spent what should have been my youth and "the best years of my life" in almost full-time total self-denial, as a survival strategy.
What for?
Well, due to this uncontrollable place called the Internet I can't go into all the details here, but due to a series of pivoal rejections and experience of sexual abuse outside the family and some other things I have for many years been driven by a show no mercy self-hate that has made me attempt to erase everything about myself. I guess one could say I have been a living dead for a number of years... until not long before Brokeback came out, that I was really at the very end of my one-way road of self-denial.
I had to make a decision to whether I was going to spend the rest of my life in that dark spot, well-aware that it was doing the wrong thing, or if I would do what would only be the right thing to do; make a very scary turn and go back to the point where I could find my true self again. 
(I'm very sorry for my vagueness.)

Needless to say, Brokeback Mountain had a tremendous part in enabling me to make up my mind and finally, finally grab the chance of going on with life without self-denial and fear as the driving forces.
The film and the BBQ get-together have changed my life, I'll tell you that!

The get-together was both wonderful and painful, as meeting all the great people was amazing! But.. I did actually experience very painful rejection as well from some three persons who I thought really were my friends but who basically stopped talking to me after having met me.
Plus, towards the end of the weekend, I could not stand against my shyness and felt very awkward despite all the lovely people around.
This might sound like shit that just happens, but I was at a place where this affected me really, really bad--the persons who began ignoring me meant a lot to me, and for the rest I blamed myself mercilessly for failing to function even among Brokeback people.
That threw me into depression, because, if I couldn't work among BBM people, then where the heck would I?? 

To not make this post any longer than it already has become, I'll finish by mentioning that the weeks and months following the BBQ, I got some help and finally took the last steps away off from the c(o)urse of self-denial.
And regarding the few persons who changed negatively towards me I can now see that it must be their own problems with whatever caused the sudden death in our contact, and not necessarily me or my problems.

Today, I am beginning to feel so so much better and relieved than I have in many years and I'm forever grateful for that, for BBM and the BBQ as well. 
I am beginning to actually feel very proud about myself so one day I'll be proud enough to quit this vague lingo.

hugs to everyone! now I must post this before I regret and erase
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: desertrat on January 06, 2007, 11:45:33 AM
elvan, thank you for posting this ! may i tell you that you actually are an incredibly courageous person to do that ?
what i will be saying now will sound negative. i'm very sorry that it is like that. i'm on a steep and fast downfall into depression at the moment so bear with me. i hope to be my true happy self soon again.
but among all the praise for this great place, we should be realistic. we shouldn't lie to ourselves and sometimes tell the truth even if it hurts. by baring our soul here, we are making ourselves very vulnerable. we are all humans, humans make mistakes, they hurt and neglect others. the more we open ourselves to others, the more vulnerable we get. what we are writing in here is open to many, many people. they will know about our deepest fears, our traumas and hurt. among those many people, we can not exclude that somebody will be neglectful and hurt us. or will even consciously use the information we give to hurt us. this is a good place, but it is not paradise.
yes, i also have been hurt by people in here. it hurts even more when my protective walls are down. i don't let them down usually. i guess people perceive me as very open, but usually i hide behind a big smile. i had times when i doubted, when i cursed myself because of my openess, telling myself that i should have known, that i deserve punishment for my stupidity. but then i look at the wonderful friends i made here (guys and girls - you know that i mean YOU !  ;)) and i know that the good outweights the bad.

elvan, i'm very sorry that you have been hurt. i hope you also found enough good friends to outweigh all the negative. for the rest - let's be patient and understanding. we can't ask from anybody to be superhuman. i guess we hurt others often enough without knowing or intending so. i hope people will be able to tell me when i hurt them. i want to learn and grow, and i never want to hurt anybody.

thanks again for being so courageous and posting this. i guess i'm too much of a coward to start it but you gave me the chance to add my 2 cents. thank you for that !
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: conny on January 06, 2007, 12:58:48 PM
elvan,hon,i know how much this must have costed you,and am so proud of you!!!!
you are on the way to recovary,just take it one step at a time,and eventually you get there.keep the faith friend  :-*

there will always be people around us who do things that we never expected them to do,and yes while being vulnarable that hurts the most.But you also are no quitter,and you know what: it`s their loss.You did your best and are a loving and kind person just the way you are,and don`t ever forget that!!
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: BrokenOkie on January 06, 2007, 01:21:45 PM
(((Elvan))) thanks for sharing everything that you did.  It took a lot of courage to click the 'post' button, I know.  The more we open ourselves to other people, the more risk we take.  But by doing so, we have the opportunity to grow, move on and look forward.  It was a joy to meet you at the BBQ.  I just wish there had been more time for one-on-one visiting.  Next time for sure!
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: CellarDweller115 on January 06, 2007, 01:30:17 PM
Elvan, thank you for joining us on this thread, and sharing your story.

Meeting you at the bbq was a pleasure.  We didn't get much time one on one time together, but I do remember talking to you in Auntie's kitchen for a little while.

I am proud of you for clicking that post button!  Congratulations!
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: bbmbliss on January 06, 2007, 02:06:40 PM
My sweet friend Elvan.  I am so proud of you for posting this.  I know how hard it is for you to reveal such painful things. 

Your strength and courage, as always, are an inspiration to me.  (((((E)))))  :-*
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Elevation on January 06, 2007, 05:43:37 PM
(((Desertrat/M)))) I'm sorry to read you're feeling really down now and I hope the tide will turn before long! Thankyou so so much for your response to my post, it is wonderful if you felt inspired to post thanks to it.
I think I can understand how you feel about your situation. You write many wise things, so please keep doing that and let those walls stay down, friend.

And (((Conny, B-O, C-D15 and bliss)))) and people who've pm:d me, thankyou all so very much for your kind words!!
Yes, courageous posting sure does work wonders in the recovery process! I'm so grateful that I have had the chance to meet you, and I too wish and plan to see you all again, for sure yes indeed!
 The brokeback love, pride and friendship I can feel from you all makes me smile inside.  :-* :-*



PS: I also want to underline re m post that the people I've lost contact with know who they are, so please everyone else don't worry if we haven't talked in a while. That's just the way things go with busy real lives and we'll talk again. (:
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: paintedshoes on January 06, 2007, 06:32:34 PM
Oh, Elvan, my very dear one...I know the courage it takes to push that "post" button, and I am grateful that you found the strength to do so.  Living with feelings of rejection, especially from people one has come to care about, can be devastating.  I know that, first hand.  But, I see that you have also come to some kind of peace with it, and for that, you are blessed.  Please know, dear heart, that I am awed by the courage you have displayed, but more importantly, by the friendship you have bestowed on me.  I'm so glad that this world has become small enough that we found each other.  Bless you, friend...and when, and if, you are ready to share more, we are here to listen and help you bear your burden.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: jnov on January 06, 2007, 10:03:46 PM
hi elvan.  the vagueness of your post is your right.  don't apologize for it.

i also congratulate you for your courage to post.  it is courageous to purposely open yourself to others.  as you have expereinced and stated, there is no guarantee that your openness will be met with love and caring.

as desertrat said, this forum has many great people in it but we are all human. it can be easy to be loving and caring and say the right words in cyperspace.  but in real life, out there in the real world, when we all interact as immediate, full humans, things can get messy!

when we open ourselves to love, we also open ourselves up to pain.  but, as you intimated, to stayed closed to love and caring, to try to eliminate pain in our lives, we cease to live.  and i have found that it is only by opening ourselves up, by risking the pain can we find the love that ultimately heals the pain.  it is a risky road to take but one worth taking.

for me, any time i open my hand and heart to another and it gets slapped down, i know that at least i was open.  and when my life is coming to an end i will never regret that openness.   

and i think you will find that more often than not, your hand and heart will not be slapped down but will be cherished and loved in return.  at least i hope and pray that it will.  for you and for me and for everyone else who takes the risk.

thanks for posting.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: desertrat on January 07, 2007, 01:38:59 AM
jnov, that was very beautifully said...you indeed encouraged me to go on reaching out even if i don't get a friendly response ! i hope your experiences here in the forum will be nothing but positive. this IS a friendly bunch here after all ;)

elvan, thank you for your kind words. as i said, you helped me to get something off my chest that is bugging me for quite a while now. but this shouldn't be about me here, it should be about you. i hope posting your thoughts and feelings helped. rejection can hurt. but i guess you can see now that it had NOTHING to do with you not being able to function socially. it was just bad luck. sometimes those people we like the most just don't "click" with us. but then others appear and they are like a long-lost brother and sister. i hope you've found and you'll continue finding lots of brothers and sisters in here.  :)
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: jnov on January 07, 2007, 02:48:48 AM
a friendly bunch indeed! 

 :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Elevation on January 07, 2007, 12:23:38 PM
Jackie, my dear friend, I want to express m gratitude for your sweet response! More to come...  :-*

jnov, thankyou for a very fine post! You're so right about the dynamics of reaching out; my post is generating love in return that I could not have dreamt of 24 hours ago!

Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: paintedshoes on January 07, 2007, 07:55:33 PM
Jackie, my dear friend, I want to express m gratitude for your sweet response! More to come...  :-*

jnov, thankyou for a very fine post! You're so right about the dynamics of reaching out; my post is generating love in return that I could not have dreamt of 24 hours ago!


Elvan, we have all learned the dynamics of reaching out...and what a blessing it is, my friend.  And a Miracle, with a capital "M".  I so love you, and all of the friends that WE have been fortunate to make here, dear one.  I LOVE this place, our home. 
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Brokeback_1 on January 09, 2007, 11:38:04 PM
Elvan, cheryl, beth, I started  looking at your posts, never read  beyond jan 6. I dont have the time to do them justice, Im way past bedtime and need to get SOME sleep for the flight to our honeymoon trip. But when i get back, ....well until then , i love you.

Jack
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: jnov on January 10, 2007, 02:04:43 AM
jack,
get some sleep, go on your honeymoon, love your wife. 
we'll be here when you get back.
i hope you both had a great, great time at your wedding!
we love you too.
beth
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Elevation on January 10, 2007, 11:43:47 AM
Elvan, we have all learned the dynamics of reaching out...and what a blessing it is, my friend.  And a Miracle, with a capital "M".  I so love you, and all of the friends that WE have been fortunate to make here, dear one.  I LOVE this place, our home. 

 :-* :-* :-*

Quote from: brokeback_1
Elvan, cheryl, beth, I started  looking at your posts, never read  beyond jan 6. I dont have the time to do them justice, Im way past bedtime and need to get SOME sleep for the flight to our honeymoon trip. But when i get back, ....well until then , i love you.
Jack

Thankyou so so much, Jack! Now I hope you're away enjoying your honeymoon. I'm very happy for you two!  :)
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Brokeback_1 on January 30, 2007, 12:10:40 AM
well I'm back. Time to read, time to post, time to share. How is everyone? I hope all are well and the inner demons are being kicked in their undeserving arses!
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: jnov on February 21, 2007, 02:15:59 AM
i'm happy to see that no one has posted here for a while.  i say i am happy because i hope this means everyone is doing well.

however, i am going to post now.  i have been thinking about posting since christmas but i keep telling myself i will wait until evening when all the kids go to bed and then i lose my courage.

and i think really i am posting because i just need to sort things through in my own mind and the best way for me to do that is by writing it all out.  i do not expect anyone to be able to fix things, i know i can only do that for myself.  and, although i know you all will, i do not even need or expect a bunch of sympathy and kind words.  :)

but my demons have been breathing life and getting stronger lately.  things have been happening, feelings, things i read, things i sing (i'm in a choir), and i am left thinking: something is moving, asking to happen, waiting for me to take some kind of action but i don't.

and it is all very vague and nebulous. 

for example, (cause this is the only way i can think to be concrete about all this and make any sense)

over christmas i watched the movie Corrina, Corrina every night for three weeks.  because it just made me feel satisfied somehow.  but it also started a sense of discontented-ness.

in choir we are learning two songs (among others) and both songs' lyrics have the message of 'give everything you have for one moment of life's ecstasy.' and every time i sing these songs i keep thinking of BBM and jack and ennis and wonder: is it really worth it? how much pain is caused!  and then i can not sing the songs!

and then i got the movie Maurice and watched it.  and then watched it every night for several weeks.  and a movie called Latter Days (an amateur movie but sweet).  and i wondered what is it about gay movies that speaks so deeply to me?  i am not gay. 

and the feeling of discontented-ness grew.  continues to grow. 

and then i got the book and read Maurice and the language in it is so ... satisfying. it fills me with a sense of sweet pleasure.  but at the same time, the way he (the author) describes emotional states makes me sad because it made me think: my emotional life is barren.  and has been barren all my life.  but when i try to explain this to anyone they look at me funny.

when i was in high school i used to pride myself on, and describe myself as, a flat line emotionally.  just always even. always "fine."  of course in hindsight i know that in fact that was a highly dysfunctional state and what i really was doing was not allowing myself to feel at all. 

but after 20 years of off and on therapy i thought i had learned how to feel, how to let myself feel.  and i have.  to a great extent.  but reading the descriptions within Maurice i thought: i have never felt that!  i have never let myself get so carried away, become so involved, love so fiercely.

and then i was on vacation, a tour with a bunch of women i did not know.  except this one women i had been on a school trip with before, i.e. her kids and my kids go to the same school and over spring break of last year the school offered a trip that we both took our kids on.  so i had spoken with her but did not know her well and had not seen her since that trip last year.

anyway, this women is into acupressure and holistic healing, etc.  very open to alternative spiritualitys, etc.  so we were sitting at dinner while on vacation and we somehow started talking about past lives, etc.  and she asked me if i believed and if i ever listened to my "jimminy cricket."  (for those of you who might not know who jimminy cricket is, essentially it is one's inner voice.)  and i said: oh no, it frightens me to listen to him.  i live my life based in fear and i am scared to hear what he has to say.

!!!!!!!

now, please understand.  as i said above, i have been in and out of therapy for 20 years.  i have consciously strived to live a life of no regrets.  i have quotes up all over my house about taking risks in life and living open to possibility, etc.  i try very hard to be emotionally honest with myself and to let myself be open to life. 

and here i heard myself saying these things which came out of nowhere and i could not believe what i was hearing!!!!  surely this was not me speaking!  yet i knew it for the truth it was!

and it confounded me.  and on the airplane home i would glance at this woman and think: she is here to help me somehow. 

in the Maurice book there is a character who, as the author put it, is on the summit and might reach a hand down to help Maurice climb up from the valley to reach the summit himself.

and yet, i have not been able to contact her.  what am i supposed to say?  "i need to know you but i don't know how or why?"  ???

and so i find myself sitting in my chair at home day to day, taking care of the daily details, making dinner, keeping the kids on schedule and all the while i feel my demons growing stronger and stronger.  and i know that i am the only one who can do anything about it.  but it baffles me.  for no reason. 

*because i want it to baffle me because then i can pretend i do not understand and then i can pretend i do not know what to do about it and therefore i can continue to take no action, to make no changes.*

kind of like ennis.  ;)

and i watch my life stretch ahead of me becoming more and more empty.  i yearn for connection but do everything i can to make sure i create none.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Nax on February 21, 2007, 03:59:29 AM
Jnov

I’m no expert but I read what you have said and there is a cognisance of what you are trying to say, in a simplistic form and sorry to use platitudes but “it’s the soul afraid of dying that never learns to live” syndrome.  You think that something is missing but you can’t identify what it is, equally you’re too afraid to find out.  Ever seen those moves where someone is encouraged to do something that they’ve never done before, something out of character, you know go to an amusement park and ride a roller coaster simply because they never have, they’ve been afraid but secretly always wanted to?

Surprise yourself, do something on a small private scale, something that you wouldn’t normal do, speak to someone you wouldn’t normally speak to.  The lack of landscape that you have identified in your life is only because that’s how you’ve kept it. I really believe that there is only one life “no return and no deposit” and everyone needs to get out of their own closets – it’s not just a gay issue but a human issue. No one, least of all me is saying this is easy or instant or will change things dramatically.  Change is what is needed and you have to address all the issues that go along with that.  Surprise your kids, go somewhere with them and be a child yourself, give yourself another chance.

The language of love as depicted in novels such as Maurice, I think is great but can it be a case that you are attracted because the other man’s grass is always greener, (as you say you are not gay), it’s not, it’s just different.  I think a lot of us especially in this forum are searching for something that they feel is missing; I think the movie brought that out in people.  I think that this is part of the human condition that helps us evolve by striving for something better; I don’t think it or you are unusual in this.

I’m glad you found the time to write, I think you’ll find you’re not alone in your feelings, I think the first step of being honest with yourself is the first step to change.  I hope that you make some moves in the direction that you want to even if you are afraid you can always come here to chat about it.

From a very less than perfect man.

Nax.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: CellarDweller115 on February 21, 2007, 04:36:18 AM
jnov, thanks for taking the time to share your story with us.  I'm always happy that people find refuge here.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: desertrat on February 21, 2007, 05:00:49 AM
jnov, i want to tell you sooooo much...and yet, i can't find the right words. give me a while, maybe i'll be able to sort my thoughts. you are yearning for a deeper life, more feelings, more meaning, right ? hmmmmmm....i'm not exactly sure how to do this. this is all so difficult, and there is so much danger behind it. fall into the other extreme and EVERYTHING is feeling. and about 80% of them are not pleasant. i know both sides. i was a rather instable teenager, and my artistic soul wanted to explore every feeling possible. yet, i tried to hide my emotions desperately from people around, was a quiet and always pleasant girl. till one day it got too much and my "double life" crashed. it took long years of training and therapy to become a balanced person, to feel deeply but avoid the self-destructive spiral of more feeling-more and more and more....until it gets too much again. i had a couple of VERY happy years. yet, lately, things have changed again. i'm more sensitive and more creative than ever but i have to get used to a "weekly breakdown". and believe me, it's no fun. i'm yearning for stability again.
there is a small number of truly lucky people: these people experience life deeply and fully, yet, they don't suffer from negative emotions. i'd like to learn how they live. buddhism seems to be a rather good way. the dalai lama has some really good ideas about that, maybe you want to read a bit more about/ of him ? i wish i had some recipie i could share with you. i haven't found one yet....
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: All4one on February 21, 2007, 09:19:43 AM
...
and yet, i have not been able to contact her.? what am i supposed to say?? "i need to know you but i don't know how or why?"? ???
...



"When the pupil is ready, the teacher will come"

jnov, if it was easy to share with her the first time, on the trip, it won't be hard to have this conversation. Just tell her you enjoyed the that time together and you would enjoy getting together again. She will know that Jiminy Cricket is still speaking and she may be honored that you see her as a helper.

There needn't be pressure; you don't have to become best friends for life. But we meet, as you expressed, 'helpers' along the way. And you know what?  She may have also sensed wisdom in you that would restore or refresh something in her.
She may be waiting for the call. :)
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: TwistsBitch on February 21, 2007, 04:36:57 PM
jnov, hope this doesn't sound crass, but go for it - what's the worst that could happen? 

The only definite thing you do know is that if you don't, you will be thinking on it for ages which could seep into years & years.  I think posting your long & thoughtful post after a while thinking on it shows you are leaning towards that path.  It doesn't mean you have to take the decision to go down it just yet, or even at all, but if you're a little way along already why not carry on & see what's round the corner. 

Whatever you do, you have an outlet here for getting your thoughts & experiences out, where no-one is going to judge you or think you are silly.  Hopefully you see this as a kind of support if you would like to take advantage of it.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: paintedshoes on February 21, 2007, 09:50:55 PM
jnov, there is no one answer to what it is that confounds you.  That is the beauty and the strength of life...one answer does not fit all.

Connection with other human beings:  something we all yearn for, yet have no clue how to achieve.  So, don't try!  Does that sound like some kind of heresy?  So be it!  You can only do what will work for you, not what you have been taught to expect.  A connection comes from caring, something that Brokeback taught us and that we must LEARN!  So, take the time...what ever time you have...and learn to care...learn to WANT to care...no one says it will be easy.  But, it will be worth it, honey. And if you need help, we are here.  Please, contact me by pm if you need to.

Does this sound simplistic?  Probably.  But, somehow, it works, IF you want it to.  Let us help you, sister mine.  We are here!  :-*
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: jnov on February 21, 2007, 10:51:06 PM
paintedshoes
twistsbitch
all4one
desertrat
cellardweller
nax

i knew i could count on you (and everyone else who PMed) for the kind words, the kick in the pants and the support i need.  i wrote in my post that i didn't need or expect kind words but i knew i would get them.  so i guess i lied a little!   ::) :)

thank you.  :-*
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: conny on February 22, 2007, 12:29:52 AM
jnov,i recognize a lot in your post,am responding late,cause i was very busy yesterday and wanted to read it when i was at ease,not in a rush.
i am glad you could finally write it down,for yourself and by this sharing it with us and youre not alone with these feelings.
i havent let any emotions in for a long,loing time and still when i get hurt again,i  fall back into that way of feeling,or better none feeling,i just shut myself off from it in that way protecting myself for more hurt.at leats thats what i try to say to myself.But i know now it doens`t work that way.
it all made sence to me after i started exploring my inner self/child,or jiminy cricket like you call it,i even explored a former life.and oh yeah that is very scary.i did it trough hypnotherapy and the first sessions it didnt work,i was too scared to relax and to go there.well i tried but i totally blocked,there wass just nothing,i could feel my head,but couldn`t feel mnt feet! but there are excersises to help you trough that and the next time still a bit of fear,but it worked and i realsized it was just me and the life i lived i was afraid off,and that i owed it to myself to heal; that child. i too have had 15 years of other therapy before all this happend,but it never got to my heart and soul,never solved things!

it came to me when i was ready for it,and so will happen to you,or already did,with that woman that talked to you.and as all4one says,why not give her a call?? go for it,you really have nothing to loose,only a lot to gain!!

hugs
conny
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: jnov on February 22, 2007, 06:56:41 AM
thanks conny.  that is one thing that gets me sometimes.  i think to myself: god, just how long does it take!! 

like you said, been through years of therapy but has it sunk into my heart and soul?  and if not, when will it!  how much more of my life do i have to give to the old scars??

so, i think i will try other avenues.  (having said that, it may take me a long time to actually work the courage up to put my words into actions!  ::))

recurring depression is just fucking boring!!!!   :D 8)


you know, i would like people's opinions on this.  which is a silly thing to ask but whatever, you guys are all so great.

i am thinking of getting a tattoo.  part of me is like: what's the big deal??  the other part of me thinks: don't do it as a reaction to something cause then you'll regret it and those things don't come off.

what do you all think?  silly question i know but   ::) ::)
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Nax on February 22, 2007, 07:02:24 AM
thanks conny.  that is one thing that gets me sometimes.  i think to myself: god, just how long does it take!! 

like you said, been through years of therapy but has it sunk into my heart and soul?  and if not, when will it!  how much more of my life do i have to give to the old scars??

so, i think i will try other avenues.  (having said that, it may take me a long time to actually work the courage up to put my words into actions!  ::))

recurring depression is just fucking boring!!!!   :D 8)


you know, i would like people's opinions on this.  which is a silly thing to ask but whatever, you guys are all so great.

i am thinking of getting a tattoo.  part of me is like: what's the big deal??  the other part of me thinks: don't do it as a reaction to something cause then you'll regret it and those things don't come off.

what do you all think?  silly question i know but   ::) ::)
go for it!
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Lance on February 22, 2007, 07:25:58 AM
'''Captain, I am functioning according to established parameters; I am ''fine'', as you humans call it.''


'''Bullshit, Spock. There is something eating at you, something you just can't stomach. You are a seething mass of emotion inside. There is something you want that you are not getting. Loosen up, live!'''
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Nax on February 22, 2007, 07:40:44 AM
'''Captain, I am functioning according to established parameters; I am ''fine'', as you humans call it.''


'''Bullshit, Spock. There is something eating at you, something you just can't stomach. You are a seething mass of emotion inside. There is something you want that you are not getting. Loosen up, live!'''
Live long and prosper - wise one  ;)
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Lance on February 22, 2007, 07:42:40 AM
That Captain Kirk really knows his stuff. And his Spock.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Nax on February 22, 2007, 07:47:09 AM
That Captain Kirk really knows his stuff. And his Spock.
Some of us are of a certain age  ;)
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: conny on February 22, 2007, 07:58:18 AM
jnov

it took me about 15 years to find the right therapy,and you know what it`s never too late!!
my old scars were still wounds and if they are you first need to heal them otherwise they never can close up. for me it was the best way to relive the things that caused that wounds.the scars wont ever go away,but thats ok,they are a pairt of me and some of them are a there there to remind me to never make that mistake again.But they have made me to what i am today and i am happy woth that woman.  :)

what is the harm in calling that woman,and just have a nice chat,you took step one to tell people(us) about it,now you can go on,.

for the tatoo i would say go for it.If you indeed have thought very good about it,that it will never come off again.
i have 11 tattoos,they all mean soemthing about a certain part of my life and i am happy with every single one of them and proud too  ;)
i even have a brokeback tatoo  :)
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: CellarDweller115 on February 22, 2007, 07:59:42 AM
i am thinking of getting a tattoo.  part of me is like: what's the big deal??  the other part of me thinks: don't do it as a reaction to something cause then you'll regret it and those things don't come off.

what do you all think?  silly question i know but   ::) ::)


I have 3 tattoos now.

I was at a crossroads, and had plans to make changes.  To mark the start of the begining of the "new Chuck", I got this tattoo.


(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v660/BlueWorkBoots/tatpics003.jpg)

Two Celtic knots because I like the looks of them.  The pink triangle because it's a gay pride symbol.  I got it in honor of those who went before me. 


After that tattoo, I lost 50lbs, got a new car, restyled my hair, whitened my teeth, and changed my attitude.  I then went and got this 2nd tattoo.


(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v660/BlueWorkBoots/tatpics002.jpg)

Top symbol = Pride, middle symbol = strength, bottom symbol = endurance.  It was my reward to myself for achieving positive change, and to help keep myself on track.


Got my third tattoo on Feb 19th this year.  By that time, I had seen Brokeback, found this forum, met many of the members, had a serious relationship, and wanted to commemorate that, so I got this.



(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g116/CellarDweller115/Copyofnewtat001.jpg)


Each tat represents a period of growth for me, and I have no regrets with getting them.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: jnov on February 22, 2007, 08:04:52 AM
'''Captain, I am functioning according to established parameters; I am ''fine'', as you humans call it.''


'''Bullshit, Spock. There is something eating at you, something you just can't stomach. You are a seething mass of emotion inside. There is something you want that you are not getting. Loosen up, live!'''

this is such a guy response!!!   :D :D :D

thanks lance.   ;D

and nax, i liked your response.  no equivocation whatsoever.   8)

and, ladies no disrespect, but sometimes i really like the guy way of living - just straightforward and from the hip.  not nearly as much bullshit as we women sometimes put into things.  i can feel my head clearing already!  like a fresh breath of menthol shocking my senses!   ;) :D
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Nax on February 22, 2007, 08:07:27 AM
'''Captain, I am functioning according to established parameters; I am ''fine'', as you humans call it.''


'''Bullshit, Spock. There is something eating at you, something you just can't stomach. You are a seething mass of emotion inside. There is something you want that you are not getting. Loosen up, live!'''

this is such a guy response!!!   :D :D :D

thanks lance.   ;D

and nax, i liked your response.  no equivocation whatsoever.   8)

and, ladies no disrespect, but sometimes i really like the guy way of living - just straightforward and from the hip.  not nearly as much bullshit as we women sometimes put into things.  i can feel my head clearing already!  like a fresh breath of menthol shocking my senses!   ;) :D
Now one thing you have to do (probably after the event) it tell us about or show us (if possible) your new tattoo. It an be hidden or it can be your "badge" of office - up to you  ;)
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: jnov on February 22, 2007, 08:11:04 AM
cellardweller - love the tattoos!!!

i'm not sure about the car and my hair though.  ;D

and conny - 11!!??   :o

i'm thinking one.  but it would be kind of big.  if i do it, after it heals, i'll show it to you all.  maybe.   ;) :D 8)

thanks for the encouragment!   :-*
beth
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: jnov on February 22, 2007, 08:54:15 AM
nax, i was with you all along on that one!!   :D :D

great minds ...   ;)
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: TwistsBitch on February 22, 2007, 10:13:29 AM
Go on jnov, tell us what is the tatto going to be of? I for one am dying to know!  Two slash girls have had great BBM-related tats also.  I love the symbolism of the hats together. 
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: CellarDweller115 on February 22, 2007, 10:19:08 AM
I love the symbolism of the hats together.

Thank you very much.  However, the topic is begining to stray.  I don't want that to happen in this thread.

So much powerful stuff has been disucssed, and healing has happened here, and I don't want that to get lost under talk of tattoos.

That being said, i'm amazed at this thread.  The support and healing that has happened here is amazing to see.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: jnov on February 22, 2007, 10:49:44 AM
no more off topic!!!

but, really, thank you all so very much for the support these last two-ish days.  you all reminded me that 1. i am not alone and 2. not to take myself so seriously!

THANK YOU   :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Lance on February 22, 2007, 10:59:09 AM
It can be good to take one's self seriously but to laugh at the follies of the world that attends to the insignificant.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: gres on February 23, 2007, 02:40:41 AM

and i watch my life stretch ahead of me becoming more and more empty.  i yearn for connection but do everything i can to make sure i create none.


Jnov, just one thing to add to all the wonderfull replies you have recieved ..... I would like to see you decide to do what you have written in here all this time. Be open and talk and do what you wish you could do in your posts. Don't leave it here...take it to your real life and do it, make it happen, my dear  :-*

Hugs!!!

Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Brokeback_1 on February 23, 2007, 02:57:51 AM
jnov, sorry it took so long after the PM. Tatts are fine, just be careful--guy I know got a big one when he was down and is kicking himself still. It's for good, make sure you want big. On some, big looks lousy.

But enough of my taste or lack thereof. I know you and care a great deal about you. The only thing I have learned  about all this is to take a first step and trust in the outcome, not trust that it will turn out how I want it, but to trust that if motives are good I will accept the result beforehand, no matter what.

When I violate that I am not happy with myself. When I flip out and don't draw back until calm has the upper hand, I regret what happens. It is usually the exact result I have been doing my utmost to avoid. When I have medicated problems, there has been a short time where it felt better. Yet--look I'm not a doctor, this is ME!!--in the long run the only way I have found affective and effective is to go through it, whatever it is, and come out on the other side. If you are basically a sound person--which --yeah, I'm applying this particular 'you' to you!--I think you are--when you go through it, you will probably come out the other side, and stronger for it, knowing yourself better. Able to do far more then cope.

Do not get me wrong here, if you are clinically depressed see a doctor and you have to be the judge of that. Yet in the long run, the only way out is through it.

This is not pop psychology, it goes back to the foundations of Greek thought. We are so busy medicating problems that many no longer know the difference between actually solving the issue and prozac-ing it to sleep. When the pills go, the problem is there unsolved.

I was thinking about this the last few days and damned near fell off my chair over in Boulder tonight when Stephen Gyllenhall said this at exactly the moment it was in my head. It was eery lol. 'The best way out is to go through it'

But remember you have support here, lots of it. Do what you can to take small steps. tiny ones if need be. A continual series of small steps changes life.

And You Are Loved.

If you doubt it look at the post above this one--gres loves you too.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: jnov on February 24, 2007, 05:04:04 AM
gres and jack

 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

you put big smiles on my face!  ;D
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: gres on February 24, 2007, 10:04:23 AM
gres and jack

 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

you put big smiles on my face!  ;D

There in the middle of all this love

(http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s36/somh/flashinghearts.gif)

is Jnov...
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: jnov on February 25, 2007, 05:39:36 AM
HEY
i know where you got that icon from!!   ;) ;)
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: gres on February 25, 2007, 08:28:01 AM
HEY
i know where you got that icon from!!   ;) ;)

I know you do and it fits perfectly here  :) .
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Brokeback_1 on April 22, 2007, 04:12:46 AM

I go through periods where I feel as if I'm insane,  and the scrapings on the bottom of the barrel. I expect these feelings and when they happen, I refuse to believe them. It makes it much easier if there is nothing to reproach myself for; if I haven't fallen TOO far off track.

It's a very low 'low' where I am inclined to beat myself bloody

I have always been very hard on myself, and at one time it was a real cycle. I would get depressed and act as if everything was fine, look absolutely perfect on the exteriour with my insides  falling apart. I would be afraid to take any actions. The longer I stayed inactive, the harder it became to take the first step out of the cycle.

It happens out of nowhere today, usually when I am stressed out. And I have been very stressed out recently.

The other night a friend from here and I were having a discussion about the phrase "troubled lives" and how we and OTHERS apply that term to ourselves.
I don't...
Neither does anybody else I know who got through to the other side of whatever affected them.

 I think I had some horrendous experiences and episodes in my life and dealt with them after putting myself through as big a wringer as the initial attackers did.

Put myself through a great deal of hell. Those situations will ALWAYS effect me, there is no denying that. Yet I have faced them, the situation ITSELF doesn't have any power today.

The attitudinal and emotional damage DOES have power. I do my best to recognise it when it begins, and get out of it fast by working it through.

 
Well it was a very good discussion. I ended up offering to write down the worse day of my life and let her read it. Why? Because it had effected my entire life, yet I had come through on the other side. Walked, worked and traveled through the darkness.

 I wrote it down, allright... and then read what I'd written. I was uncertain about sending such a thing to anyone who had never been through it, so I "detached" and read it from the perspective of someone who was reading another person's story.

It fucking horrified me.

When I look at  this from MY perspective it's run of the mill, I'm used to it. It happened. Ok. It's been dealt with. OK. It doesn't matter much as a series of ACTS inflicted on me, hell it doesn't matter at all in that way! It only matters --like I said--when the little voice saying I'm shit surfaces. And I hate that voice; when a kid has been made to say he is shit, and spat on, you never quite forget it. What you do is deal with it, and when that voice shows up I tell it to fuck off.

Well, what I wrote horrified me.
I can't believe I'm still alive, can't believe I'm as sane as I am. And sometimes that is not very sane.

I came close to being destroyed as a person that day. I remember detaching from events, watching with curiousity as my mind began to get spidercracks and split like a 'dinged' car windshield....yet that spidered glass held together. III held it together,and have a vague memory of thinking if I shattered, I wouldn't know what to do. I have a clearer memory of  refusing to give anyone the satisfaction of  watching me shatter. I vaguely remember thinking that if I cracked apart I'd do it on my own terms, not his.

I wasn't destroyed, kept just enough of the core sheltered to rebuild myself when the time was right.... And after reading it 'as a stranger' I can't believe it. It nauseated me and completely blew me away. I am not used to detaching that far anymore, of looking at my business  as if it was someone else's story.

 I just shrug at the knowledge of  it all and think  it's over and it caused damage but I worked  through it: just live life the best you can, it's a gift!

All true.
 
But I had forgotten how bad it actually was. It completely flipped me out. I don't want to sound whiny here, I hate it when I whine and complain. It just hurt a great deal .

If I had a friend who had been molested, who had pins stuck into a 12 year old penis, who had things stuffed in his rectum, who was spat on and told his name was Shit, that he deserved it....I don't know what i would do..

How come I could never have compassion for MYSELF?

I didn't send her what I wrote, it simply felt wrong to inflict that on someone. What would have been the point?
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: jnov on April 22, 2007, 05:33:47 AM
compassion for oneself.


i have to say jack, i read your post and kept nodding my head.

we don't live by the same rules as everyone else do we?  i have had therapists try to do that with me.  "would you react that way/think that way if it were someone else?"

no

"then why do you react/think that way for yourself?"

because it is different.  because the rules are different.  the expectations are higher.  i should be better than, less deserving of, less than, more than, etc.

i am so glad you have figured out a way to shut up that little voice.  got any tips?  i'm still working on it.

compassion for ourselves.  this is something to remember.

i will say one thing has helped.  i think of my kids and i think "if something like what happened to me happened to any one of them, how would i react?  or more importantly, what would i say to them about their role in it?"  well, that is what i must learn to say to myself.  and what we must all learn to say to ourselves.

you are not shit.  it was not your fault.  you did not deserve it. 

you are beautiful.  you are lovable.  you are good.  you are powerful.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Amiennis on April 22, 2007, 05:40:10 AM
How come I could never have compassion for MYSELF?

I didn't send her what I wrote, it simply felt wrong to inflict that on someone. What would have been the point?
It might have made you feel less alone... I know it has been very difficult for me sharing (parts of) my story (http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=17887.75 and http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=17887.165 - only up 'til age 17) with my friends, afraid as I was that I would hurt them - how cynical is that in retrospect, huh?
In the end, though, I did tell and yes, it did make them cry - which in turn made me cry because I saw a loved one in pain, not realising at first it was because of me.
But when I finally did, these experiences have taught me to have (at least a little) compassion for myself - because my friends (' reactions) held up a mirror to me, if you will.

Should you want to discuss some of this "live": look for the tall Dutch guy in Estes Park :).

Take care,
Marc
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: gattaca on April 22, 2007, 05:53:35 PM

I go through periods where I feel as if I'm insane,  and the scrapings on the bottom of the barrel. I expect these feelings and when they happen, I refuse to believe them. It makes it much easier if there is nothing to reproach myself for; if I haven't fallen TOO far off track.
...
I have always been very hard on myself, and at one time it was a real cycle. I would get depressed and act as if everything was fine, look absolutely perfect on the exteriour with my insides  falling apart. I would be afraid to take any actions. The longer I stayed inactive, the harder it became to take the first step out of the cycle.
...
Put myself through a great deal of hell. Those situations will ALWAYS effect me, there is no denying that. Yet I have faced them, the situation ITSELF doesn't have any power today.
The attitudinal and emotional damage DOES have power. I do my best to recognise it when it begins, and get out of it fast by working it through.
...

Well it was a very good discussion. I ended up offering to write down the worse day of my life and let her read it. Why? Because it had effected my entire life, yet I had come through on the other side. Walked, worked and traveled through the darkness.
...
When I look at  this from MY perspective it's run of the mill, I'm used to it. It happened. Ok. It's been dealt with. OK. It doesn't matter much as a series of ACTS inflicted on me, hell it doesn't matter at all in that way! It only matters --like I said--when the little voice saying I'm shit surfaces. And I hate that voice; when a kid has been made to say he is shit, and spat on, you never quite forget it. What you do is deal with it, and when that voice shows up I tell it to fuck off.
...
Well, what I wrote horrified me.  I can't believe I'm still alive, can't believe I'm as sane as I am. And sometimes that is not very sane.
...
But I had forgotten how bad it actually was. It completely flipped me out. I don't want to sound whiny here, I hate it when I whine and complain. It just hurt a great deal .

How come I could never have compassion for MYSELF?

I didn't send her what I wrote, it simply felt wrong to inflict that on someone. What would have been the point?

Your posting struck a deep cord.  People who've been abused, physically and/or mentally DO have a different perspective on the world - they must or many of them would have checked out long ago.  There's a deep inner conflict between the reality of our pasts and our need to be accepted and loved by those we include (or want to include) in our daily lives.  We insulated ourselves from ourselves and others to survive the chilling ordeals of which you speak.    I believe we, as a group, are prone to the depression dogs when we allow the pain from those events to surface and it's usually during a stressful event as you describe.   It's damn hard to keep all the wolves / dogs at bay when your body and mind are under additional stress because I know WE operate in a constant mode of stress - buried as it may be.   

I agree, the situations are not the problem - but living with them and knowing how much those events have shaped our lives - our attitudes, our emotions - it changed our paths - it made us who you are today... is all of what we struggle with... those "what ifs" sometimes are carcinomas that consume all the good we are, we do and have done and it threatens to terminate our very core at times and I believe it has something to do with our lack of compassion for ourselves.  But then, we reach down inside, remember all the good we are, all the good we have done and we scratch and climb out of that sink hole.   We view these "events", if we can call them that,  as "run of he mill" b/c we have no other way to look at them - they are part of us - they defined us so what else can they be to US?  Perhaps it is out of fear of shame or persecution or ridicule or rejection that we cannot feel compassion for ourselves at times.  Perhaps we hate whiners b/c we feel they are weak and they should just  "shut up, chin up and take it like a real man..." Compassion is  something from those "faggot sissy boys... b/c we all know -  real men are not compassionate..." 

Perhaps it is because we ARE different from most people in that we never really "fit into whatever" is defining the world at the moment ... that we ARE here today.    I know many people simply choose to give up when faced with some of the abysses we have been thru....it's damn hard enough not being heterosexual, toss abuse into the cocktail and it compounds the pain in our lives.  Look no further than the state of Utah for what happens when people are forced to bury things, to hide, to internalize the pain, to be alone - coupled with the hard core religious right hatred sanctioned by the church and we have the highest suicide rate in the nation among teenagers and young adults.

We are human and sometimes, we do need a shoulder to lean on, we do need someone to talk to who understands some of the roads we've walked and in life I don't think we ever relinquish our dream to find people whom we can relate to about our lives and become friends with - to share our lives and our stories.  It's one of the reason's DC exists and why we are here (I think..).

As for your letter about your life, WOW, at some point, when you are ready,  I think you need to find a way to share those things with your partner - so they can understand these events which shaped you as they are part of you.  They need to know how vulnerable you are at times and THEY need to be able to toss you a rope when your find yourself sliding down that sink hole.  It's what makes us partners, lovers, friends and soulmates.   We cannot be 100% stoic in a relationship with any depth and I think until we share those things w/ our partners, we are defensive and cannot find peace with ourselves.   I personally believe that sharing these "darker passages" - what shaped us is critical to growing beyond them both for ourselves and our partners in this life.   You've shared some of these painful events  with the "strangers" here on DC and yet you can't bring yourself to share it with your life partner - the person you love, the person you share your daily life with...?    I know my partner was mad as hell for a while after I told her that I told one of my buddies about what happened to me and my sexuality and how it had shaped me - she wanted to know why I trusted him before her... and well it was a complex answer regarding having more to lose.

I'm not sure whether you would be "inflicting" or "sharing", guess it is your POV but the point that if your partner knows the truth, knows about your pain and as your partner can help "ease your pain" which would strengthen your lives together.  To me it's pretty close to Ennis's "I swear".   Later, Vincent
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Brokeback_1 on April 22, 2007, 10:07:17 PM
Thanks. All 3 of you....jnov gattaca,amiennis.

Marc oh yes, I will be looking you up at the BBQ:

you couldn't avoid me if you wanted to!!

 I'm the one who will  be hunting down every brokie  at Estes to get their signatures on what we are sending to Annie and Diana.

My wife knows everything. But I don't think she KNOWS everything. And sitting down, telling her all this in detail is...I don't know what. It's a good idea you had, I'm going to show it to her. She's spending her life with me and loves me mad crazy. It might clarify a lot.

I was a lot better today and started writing an apology to Tammy here on DCF: a nice woman if there ever was one,  whom I told to publicly drop dead on an open thread... How's that for shit behaviour and inappropriate  lashing out?? Every time I act spontaneously when I'm like this I do something I hate.

And I went to my writing workshop over at Boulder. They were like, look what's the story, this is beautiful and you need to submit it for publication, why do you keep saying YOUR stuff can't be very good, why do you need to learn how to WRITE with us no matter who recommended you??? And I gave 'em a simple answer---I don't know HOW to write, everything they're talking about took months, was written by a clueless guy groping like a blind person. And I find it hard to believe MY offerings are any good.

They told me I was nuts and suggested a literary therapist. ROFLMAO
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: paintedshoes on April 22, 2007, 10:52:04 PM
Jack, I have been thinking about your post for over 12 hours.  I read it, as well as the replies by jnov and Marc, before I went to work today, but had no words...only pain.  Pain for you and what you endured, pain for jnov and Marc,and the pain they, too, endured, pain for myself.  And I went to work, where I help take care of people who are ill and under stress.  For the last 12 hrs, so much has been "percolating" in my brain.  And for some strange reason, one thing that I kept coming back to was the time that you posted...it was the middle of the night!  Why does pain, the pain of memory, the pain of loss, keep us from the sleep which "knits up the ravelled sleeve of care?"

No answers, I am afraid, but how often is it in the middle of the night when we are visited by the ghosts of what was and what should have been?

Jack, you are a wonderful man.  I have admired you for a long time.  I look forward to meeting you in Estes Park.  Jnov, I have not yet had the pleasure of knowing you, but I hope that changes.  Marc, I'll see you in Dallas for our ride to Denver together, my brother.  :-*


Oh, and Vincent...wise words, sir...wise words.  Thank you.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Brokeback_1 on April 22, 2007, 10:57:56 PM
 :-*
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: paintedshoes on April 22, 2007, 11:00:33 PM
(((Jack)))
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: desertrat on April 23, 2007, 02:15:32 AM
first of all, (((hugs))) to all of you, and especially to jack, dear friend, i wish i was there with you, whenever i see you're not feeling good !

it is reassuring to me to see that we are not islands, not so totally crazy that we are the only ones - we are simply a group of people who had certain experiences and therefore have a certain take on life. it is somewhat reassuring to know we are not the only ones.
what i think about the self-love/ self-hate thing is that it makes you almost schizophrenic. always being good, super-empathic and attentive to the feelings and the pain of others but paying no attention to the own personal pain because we think we are not worth it - that creates a double life, one in which most of the people around us will never see our true faces because we believe that nobody will love our true faces.....
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Brokeback_1 on April 23, 2007, 04:46:48 AM
I'm tired of dealing with the results, the constant watch for self sabotogue and self destructive attitudes. What happens when we get old and can't do that any more?
What then?
Maybe this is whiny...yet when we've dealt with what happened why do we have to deal with the aftereffects for the rest of our lives? It's not fair. You do all that work only to find the damage can't be fixed....always have the damage, coming out when you least expect it.
I'm tired, so tired of it.


A little song for 'us' when we feel 'it'...


Mad World / Tears for Fears


All around me are familiar faces
Worn out places, worn out faces
Bright and early for their daily races
Going nowhere, going nowhere
And their tears are filling up their glasses
No expression, no expression
Hide my head I want to drown my sorrow
No tommorow, no tommorow

And I find it kind of funny
I find it kind of sad
The dreams in which I'm dying
Are the best I've ever had
I find it hard to tell you
'Cos I find it hard to take
When people run in circles
It's a very, very
Mad World

Children waiting for the day they feel good
Happy Birthday, Happy Birthday
Made to feel the way that every child should
Sit and listen, sit and listen
Went to school and I was very nervous
No one knew me, no one knew me
Hello teacher tell me what's my lesson
Look right through me, look right through me


And I find it kind of funny
I find it kind of sad
The dreams in which I'm dying
Are the best I've ever had
I find it hard to tell you
'Cos I find it hard to take
When people run in circles
It's a very, very
Mad World
Mad World
You watch over everyone
Mad World
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Brokeback_1 on April 23, 2007, 04:47:41 AM
Martina you are beautiful....
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Amiennis on April 23, 2007, 06:46:31 AM
I'm tired of dealing with the results, the constant watch for self sabotogue and self destructive attitudes. What happens when we get old and can't do that any more?
What then?
Maybe this is whiny...yet when we've dealt with what happened why do we have to deal with the aftereffects for the rest of our lives? It's not fair. You do all that work only to find the damage can't be fixed....always have the damage, coming out when you least expect it.
I'm tired, so tired of it.
Try and take it one minute, one second at a time - it is more than enough. Just: now. Don't worry about what happens when: you'll cross that bridge when you get to it. For example, right now I have no idea how I'm gonna make that trip to the US, feeling as I feel. But I trust that I will be able to do it when the time comes, looking back at (all) the things I've achieved over the past six months, that I would have thought unachievable before.
Try and rest when you're tired, literally rest - and remember that you are no longer alone...

Marc

PS  That song is off the album "The Hurting" :-\
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: conny on April 23, 2007, 07:26:19 AM
i cant find the right words but wish i was there to give you a real hug ((((jack)))
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: jnov on April 23, 2007, 08:10:40 AM

In the end, though, I did tell and yes, it did make them cry - which in turn made me cry because I saw a loved one in pain, not realising at first it was because of me.
But when I finally did, these experiences have taught me to have (at least a little) compassion for myself - because my friends (' reactions) held up a mirror to me, if you will.


Take care,
Marc


i really like this idea, the idea of having a mirror held up to us, to teach us how to be compassionate toward ourselves. 

over the years i have told a couple people of what happened to me and each time i tell someone the shame of it gets less.  i become more and more able to say "i was the victim of abuse" instead of just "this happened to me."

i know some people don't like the word victim but to me it absolves me of the responsibility.  it says "someone else did this to me.  i did not do this to myself."

because that is where the depression comes in.  i become depressed and start to treat myself badly.  not bad bad, like cutting or anything, but just passively self-destructive - lethargic, eating a lot, sneaking smokes, drinking (i really have to watch that one!!!  i spent my entire junior year of college drunk.)

and then, as you said jack, it becomes really, really hard to pull myself out of it.

i think some of it is also, as you alluded to jack, the anger at it all.  why the fuck do i have to carry the burden for the rest of my life?!  he got away scot free!  married, three beautiful daughters, good career, blah, blah, blah.  i don't see him getting depressed!

it is so fucking unfair!!  as i say, it is always the kids that pay the price.  ALWAYS.  and then those kids become us - adults still paying the price.  and sometimes you just want to say WHAT THE FUCK!!!!!!

and jack, when you get tired of dealing with it all, stop.  stop dealing with it.  give it over to someone else.  katrina, god, buddha, jimmeny cricket, whomever!  just let it all go.  and believe, or pretend to believe, that someone will catch you.

anne lamott has a book called All New People.  because in a hundred years, all our dramas, all our cares and concerns will be gone and the earth will be populated with all new people.

also, because i love anne lamott: "Your anger and damage and grief are the way to the truth."

i don't have a friggin clue as to what it means but it gives me hope.

and the last bit is this:

Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate.  Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure.  It is our light, not our darkness, that frightens us.  We ask ourselves, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented, and fabulous?  Actually, who are you not to be?  You are a child of god.  Your playing small doesn't serve the world.  There's nothing enlightened about shrinking so that other people won't feel insecure around you.  We are born to make manifest the glory of god that is within us.  It's not just in some of us; it's in everyone.  And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same.  As we are liberated from our own fear, our presence automatically liberates others.    - Nelson Mandela 1994

even if you don't do the whole god thing, it still makes sense i think.  you may think i am crazy, especially when you are talking about feeling self-destructive and tired.  always having to be watchful.  but i wonder how much is the "i don't deserve it" sucking up your energies because when you start to do good, like your writing, your "i am bad" wall comes up.  and that wall requires a lot of energy! 

okay, enough of the psycho-pop gobbley-gook.  here are the things i know:
1. what happened to us as kids sucks big time and not in a good way.
2. it will always be with us, for good or bad.  and that also sucks big time.
3. none of this is right or fair or because we deserve it.
4. it is only through allowing ourselves to be loved by others that we learn to love ourselves.
5. we can't do it alone.  and sometimes we can't do it at all.  and that is okay.
6. as long as we keep reaching out, we'll be taken care of.

7. I AM SO JEALOUS OF ALL OF YOU WHO WILL GET TO MEET IN PERSON THIS SUMMER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!     (talk about not fair!  ;D)

beth
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: desertrat on April 23, 2007, 08:53:13 AM

okay, enough of the psycho-pop gobbley-gook.  here are the things i know:
1. what happened to us as kids sucks big time and not in a good way.
2. it will always be with us, for good or bad.  and that also sucks big time.
3. none of this is right or fair or because we deserve it.
4. it is only through allowing ourselves to be loved by others that we learn to love ourselves.
5. we can't do it alone.  and sometimes we can't do it at all.  and that is okay.
6. as long as we keep reaching out, we'll be taken care of.

7. I AM SO JEALOUS OF ALL OF YOU WHO WILL GET TO MEET IN PERSON THIS SUMMER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!     (talk about not fair!  ;D)


beth, that is a great "list". summarizes it perfectly !

(oh yeah, and the last point of course as well !  ;) :D)
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: jnov on April 23, 2007, 09:25:38 AM
yeah, that last point.   sigh   :'(
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: TwistsBitch on April 23, 2007, 10:53:11 AM
....even if you don't do the whole god thing, it still makes sense i think.  you may think i am crazy, especially when you are talking about feeling self-destructive and tired.  always having to be watchful.  but i wonder how much is the "i don't deserve it" sucking up your energies because when you start to do good, like your writing, your "i am bad" wall comes up.  and that wall requires a lot of energy!

I can understand the "wall" thing.  I see it as similar to the wall Ennis had that kept him from allowing himself to be with Jack.  If his energy wasn't so taken up with that then maybe things could have been different. 

& ditto your last point too!
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: paintedshoes on April 23, 2007, 11:04:00 AM
Beth, a wonderful list, and quite accurate, for me, at least.  I wish both you and Martina could be with us, as well.

Marc, you will make that trip to us, because you are not alone, either, and are markedly stronger than you give yourself credit for.  All will be well.

Jack, I've given up so many times in my life, cause fighting that self-destructive attitude IS hell.  But, Marc has a point.  One moment at a time.  Sometimes just putting one foot in front of the other makes it worthwhile.  It's not magic, it is just about getting through it. And, so far, it works.  I think.   :-\
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Brokeback_1 on April 24, 2007, 07:42:37 AM
I need to clarify something for you, my treasured friends.

Some PM's  I've received show me that it's necessary.

It's not the actual events which 'get me' today.

No, not at all.

I forgave those people a long time ago, each and every one of them.  You may think me crazy for saying this but...I don't feel anger towards those men and haven't for many years. When I say I forgave them I MEAN IT!  The anger towards 'the perps' is gone.

This is why you'll think me crazy: I feel sorry for them. The worse one, in particular, was a monster if there ever was a monster born, and I feel very sorry for him. To be as cruel and sadistic as he was, someone must have done something terrible to him, really terrible. He was doing to me what had been done to him, at least that's what my heart feels. He hungered for the power, craved the ability to hurt because he was agonised himself.

This does not by any stretch of the imagination mean I exonerate him as a lovely misunderstood fellow, he was a completely  bastard & belonged in the dock at Nuremburg. The Allies executed people who resembled what he was, inside.

The youngest guy may well have saved my life. He was never sadistic, just an ass who got in way way way over his head. As a kid I thought he was a decent guy. As an adult I think he was far far far from a decent guy. He took advantage of the situation and was a young pedophile, albeit not abusive in the slightest. He belonged in prison. Balancing gratitude with justice can be a fine line, and he is on that line. He deserved compassion and he deserved jail. His very lack of cruelty compared to others made him see ok, it messed with my head for many years...and he deserved jail.

And I basically don't give a damned about the best, the worse, and the man I confronted 20 years ago at a party, either.They are all out of my life, these 3 and the rest. They have no power, and I won't-don't masochistically inflict damage on my own mind by giving  renewed power to people I forgave before God. It would be gross hypocrisy, make no sense, and I have no desire to do that.

Peace unto them: I mean it.

There is no grudge here.

The problem is not other people, the problem is me and my own head. The problem is dealing with ME, not those people. Forgiven or not, the fact remains that there was basic damage done to my head, deep damage. Irrepairable. There are things missing from my mental makeup and I'm not alone in this, every one of us has this issue. 

I know this. I watch for  when that damage rears its' head. 
     
You can outright dismiss any  notion that my attitudes tell me  NOT that I'm a decent person,  NOT that I can love someone,  NOT  that they can love ME back,  NOT that I don't communicate with those who love me--especially my wife.

It's more insidious.

When I'm good at something my head tells me I am no good. I've posted that I feel I'm a lousy husband. I actually said that to my wife's mother. Seriously. I told her i felt  I wasn't good enough for her daughter and was inadequate as a husband. My mother in law got hysterical, called my brother in law  as she laughed so hard she choked and said John thinks he's a lousy husband. I could hear my wife's brother laugh through the phone. My mother in law  laughed at me  and said you are a spectacularly thoughtfull and considerate --if crazy--husband.

You know, i studied horticulture and was damned good, learned from the best people in the US and the UK. People who had a high opinion of and faith in my abilities.I sabatoged myself. There were a few things I designed which even I will say were gorgeous but I never believed anything I did was worth charging a fair price for BECAUSE I HAD MADE IT. How could I ask for 'that sort of money'--which people were both eager and willing to pay? When I did something I gave people what ther minds eye wanted.  Just last year I was asked to help a lady who had paid an outrageous amount of money for a job which was pure crap--no interesting shrubs, no plants worth a dime, no cohesive structure, no backbone, no blending of foliage and no sense of imagination. They didn''t even do 'double duty' by which I mean making sure that if there was a spring bulb display it was followed by a succession of bloom throughout the season. Good example:

The lady loved different varieties of crocus. Ok, that's all the guys who originally did her garden gave her in one area. When I redid their abortion, I ordered her 5,000 crocus corms, in 28 different varieties. I kept the varieties together, used common sense. She had a huge forsythia she loved: under it I planted 1,000 white Jeanne'dArc   hybrids, reminiscent of the snow which had so recently departed. It looked spectacular. The people before me had planted mixed varieties in one area and nothing else at all. For 50 weeks of the year she had bare ground. They ignored her 70 year old forsythia shrub, which could have and should have been a focal point of her garden. I figured the forsythia was dull after it bloomed, it s a blob of green. So I planted 3 mid-sized clematis to weave through it, hybrids which could be cut to the ground in the fall. Interplanted with the spring crocus, I planted one species of crocus--just one, no mixed up mess!!!-- which bloomed in the fall from late September through Frost and smelled like honey. [ I LOVE the fall blooming crocus!]  She didn't even have a clue there were crocus which bloomed in the fall! And the guys who had robbed her so badly took full advantage of that lack of knowlede to NOT bother to plant them. For the summer months I had a variegated vinca as a groundcover over the crocus. The variegation was picked up, enhanced and contrasted with the clematis threading their way through the forsythia. Each--the vinca and the clematises--had tones which enhanced the other and since each clematis had a slightly different bloom time the effect changed for months. These things are not difficult to do...well, for me anyway. I did little seasonal vignettes  like that all over the place, blew her away by ordering a few shrubs which bloom in a northern winter. They are not hard to either find and /or maintain, they're EASY SHRUBS. But you need to know they exist, that you CAN have a prunus bloom in late January; small flowers but it's a cherry that blooms in the snow.

I charged her about 1/3  what would have been standard for a design which seemed complex but was  actually very simple. I took out maybe 60% of what these idiots had planted. The end result had maybe 2/3 the original number of plants. Less, IS more, you just need to know your material.

She gave me --I'm serious-- a separate envelope  with a note and cash and said it was my tip, because someone had finally done what she wanted and I had UNDERcharged her so much it was the very least she could do to show her appreciation. The people before me had  charged her 22,000.00 PLUS plants.  I had charged her 7000.00 and INCLUDED plants. I made about 2,000.00.

That envelope had 30[thirty] $100.00 bills in it.

I've been writing short stories. Well, I wrote some which are  far far above the level of what I write on here. They have  been pronounced awesome. The writer I asked told me the story I sent and asked for opinion on was stunningly beautiful.

I think if I wrote it, it can't be very good. AND I KNOW BETTER.

That's the problem.

What set me off a few days ago was writing down what was done to me and reading it from the perspective of a 'normal' person. It horrified me. It made me understand yet again just how badly I was treated. It made me understand once again, forcefully, just how poor an opinion i have, and how hard I am, on anything I can do well from loving my wife to planting a damned bulb.

That, my friends, is the problem.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Brokeback_1 on April 24, 2007, 08:27:25 AM
I feel like I just gave a Garden Club speech roflmao!!!!
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: CellarDweller115 on April 24, 2007, 08:44:41 AM
I forgave those people a long time ago, each and every one of them. You may think me crazy for saying this but...I don't feel anger towards those men and haven't for many years. When I say I forgave them I MEAN IT! The anger towards 'the perps' is gone.


BB_1, I can understand where you are coming from.

A while ago, I told some of my friends I hold no grudges or anger towards the people who treated me so harshly in my past.  I'm not letting their negativity poison me any more.

This is something I wrote and posted in the "Deep Thoughts" section a while ago.  It fits here too, I believe.





(http://www.reanurmi.com/images/inventory/Inv%20Excess%20baggage.jpg)


Moving On

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
All my life you bought me hell
but now I've grown and wish you well

All my life you made me cry
but now I look up to the sky

All my life you made me doubt
but now I've got it figured out

All my life you gave me pain
but now I've made it through the rain

I took your blows, I took your strife
dealt with all the ways you tried to ruin my life

Now look at me, somebody new
not that tired loser you once abused

I've succeed in many ways, that you will never see
'cause I'm surrounded now by friends, who taught me to love me for me

All my life you gave me fears
beat me down and gave me tears

I'm glad you're not around to see
the person i've turned out to be

Through the sadness I have sailed
all of your attempts have failed

Now I turn, and I move on
and the pain you've caused is gone
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Brokeback_1 on April 24, 2007, 09:08:47 AM
Chuck that is really very very nice.  we can all understand that one

thanks!
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: desertrat on April 24, 2007, 09:19:30 AM
chuck, that is BEAUTIFUL. thank you !  :-*
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: jnov on April 24, 2007, 09:25:40 AM
okay jack.

can i be frank?

you know what the problem is.  you have defined it and written about it. (can you come do my garden!!!)  you understand it exactly.

so stop doing it.


seriously.  just stop it.  you know you undervalue yourself.  so find someone whose opinion you trust.  and the next time you do something that you think is for shit, ask this person "what do you think?"  and then go with their opinion.  throw yours away.

the next time you think you are a bad husband, ask your wife "am i a bad husband?"  not asking for a compliment, asking for her trusted opinion.  and when she says "no, you are a good husband" then tell yourself "i am a good husband."

the next time you do a job for someone, ask someone you trust, "how much do you think this job is worth?"  and then charge that much and tell yourself that your time, talent and effort is worth that much.

eventually you will start to believe in yourself and won't have to ask other people so much.

think of it as behavior modification for your brain.  we believe what we tell ourselves.  so the next time you hear yourself starting to tell yourself that you are ___ (fill in the negative adjective) ask someone else and then replace your internal monologue with theirs. 

but you can't just ask them and then say "oh gosh gee willy, naw, you think so?" like a little boy asking for a compliment.  you must be matter of fact about it.  you must trust that their opinion is accurate, objectively accurate. which means the other person or persons you ask need to know what you are doing.  so they know to give an objective, honest opinion.  not insincere flattery.  or even sincere flattery.  but an objective opinion.  and then adopt it as your own.  and be serious about doing so.

more psycho-babble from me.  but i am so good at it!!!!   ;D
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: jnov on April 24, 2007, 09:28:38 AM


This is something I wrote and posted in the "Deep Thoughts" section a while ago.  It fits here too, I believe.


hey chuck, what is the Deep Thoughts section?  don't tell me there is a cool thread i have been missing all this time?

(by the way, if i continue to use the word "cool" after 40 does that automatically make me an old geek?)   ;D
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: CellarDweller115 on April 24, 2007, 09:54:22 AM
hey chuck, what is the Deep Thoughts section? don't tell me there is a cool thread i have been missing all this time?

(by the way, if i continue to use the word "cool" after 40 does that automatically make me an old geek?) ;D


Sending you the info via PM.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: jnov on April 24, 2007, 09:56:52 AM
got it, thanks.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Brokeback_1 on April 24, 2007, 10:48:34 AM
psychobabble??

nope

it's raw common sense. i actually do that.

Check your PM page...

This has been stressful for a while now--getting married, the receptions, adjusting, changing--or trying to change--the work I do, Katrina being sick, all of it. I love being married, love it. And make no bones about it this is a very wild adjustment! We get along beautifully, too--I wonder how people manage to adjust when they have one of those relationships where they fight?lol

Writing that thing and reading it the way i read it served a purpose. It is looking, right now, as if it centrered me.
Isn't that wild??

TY Jnov
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: paintedshoes on April 24, 2007, 11:03:00 AM

Writing that thing and reading it the way i read it served a purpose. It is looking, right now, as if it centrered me.
Isn't that wild??

TY Jnov
I'm glad, honey.   :-* :-* :-*  (((Jack)))

As for the "Garden Club speech?"  I for one loved it...it made sense to this non-gardner.  ;)

Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: conny on April 24, 2007, 12:48:58 PM
chuck i must have missed that poem,its beautiful!! and so are you  :-*
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: ChrisW on April 24, 2007, 01:08:57 PM
okay jack.

can i be frank?

you know what the problem is.  you have defined it and written about it. (can you come do my garden!!!)  you understand it exactly.

so stop doing it.


seriously.  just stop it.  you know you undervalue yourself.  so find someone whose opinion you trust.  and the next time you do something that you think is for shit, ask this person "what do you think?"  and then go with their opinion.  throw yours away.

the next time you think you are a bad husband, ask your wife "am i a bad husband?"  not asking for a compliment, asking for her trusted opinion.  and when she says "no, you are a good husband" then tell yourself "i am a good husband."

the next time you do a job for someone, ask someone you trust, "how much do you think this job is worth?"  and then charge that much and tell yourself that your time, talent and effort is worth that much.

eventually you will start to believe in yourself and won't have to ask other people so much.

think of it as behavior modification for your brain.  we believe what we tell ourselves.  so the next time you hear yourself starting to tell yourself that you are ___ (fill in the negative adjective) ask someone else and then replace your internal monologue with theirs. 

but you can't just ask them and then say "oh gosh gee willy, naw, you think so?" like a little boy asking for a compliment.  you must be matter of fact about it.  you must trust that their opinion is accurate, objectively accurate. which means the other person or persons you ask need to know what you are doing.  so they know to give an objective, honest opinion.  not insincere flattery.  or even sincere flattery.  but an objective opinion.  and then adopt it as your own.  and be serious about doing so.

more psycho-babble from me.  but i am so good at it!!!!   ;D
this is great advice! not babble IMHO
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: jnov on April 24, 2007, 11:04:42 PM
hey jack,

as i was falling asleep last night it occurred to me -

maybe you were just venting.  like i did a while ago.  you just needed space to release some pent up negative energy.  and here i go trying to throw "solutions" around and "fix the problem."

how very man-like of me!!   ;)

so feel free to ignore everything in my last post.  if you just need space to vent, here's the place.  scream your head off, wring your hands as much as you need to, worry, cry, be angry, whatever emotion you need to release.

and i will keep my big mouth shut and give you space to explode.

because i know there will be another time when i will need the same.  :)

Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: paintedshoes on April 24, 2007, 11:41:49 PM
jnov, Jack may not have "needed" your advice, but as Chris said, it is good stuff.  Someone else may benefit from it greatly, so thank you.  You are a wise woman.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: jnov on April 25, 2007, 06:55:06 AM
well, if it was helpful for anyone ...

 :)
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: ChrisW on April 25, 2007, 11:52:36 AM
well, if it was helpful for anyone ...

 :)
me, for example :)
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Brokeback_1 on April 25, 2007, 02:15:16 PM
well, if it was helpful for anyone ...

 :)
yeah it was helpful to ME.

It think I was doing BOTH jnov
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: jnov on April 26, 2007, 01:16:43 AM
 :)
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: cwby on May 01, 2007, 07:31:44 PM
After reading Marc's story early on I gotta say how I could relate to the physical abuse my father imparted on my siblings and my mother. As I sit here I feel frozen as if being right back in the moments of physical abuse. The body never forgets. Emotionally I just want to cry. My mother doesn't talk about it much, yet a few weeks back she said, "he beat the confidence out of me" (My mom was remarking how confident she was, an educated farm girl).
my father committed suicide when I was eight-which IMHO was the best thing that coulda happened for the family despite the enormous damage he inflicted.
It still comes to mind when someone asks me how I am doing. My response is : F.I.N.E.= frustrated, insecure, neurotic and emotional.
I don't think my family will ever recover from this abuse.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: CellarDweller115 on May 01, 2007, 07:43:54 PM
Cwby, thank you for sharing this story, and I'm sorry that you felt the need to delete your membership.

Please know that the members here care about you, and wish you positive things.

You can always come back, and we'll be waiting.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: BrokenOkie on May 01, 2007, 07:48:34 PM
I don't think my family will ever recover from this abuse.

You may well be correct about that in the literal sense, cwby.  (I can relate)  There is no undoing the past, but there is life above and beyond abuse.  It takes time.  It takes healing.  It can take an ocean of tears.  But it can be done.  Hang in there.  Should you feel that participating further here would be helpful, that's one option.  But there are many others.  I hope you find what's right for you.     
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Rob in Puyallup on May 01, 2007, 07:56:49 PM
cwby,

I completely understand what you said. Though it wasn't my father that abused my sister and I, that pain handed to us when we were very young children has never left. It's still there. I have learned this past year, since seeing our movie, and facing myself, to ACCEPT myself as the flawed man I am. I have learned to put all that darkness on a shelf in my mind, am no longer obviously affected by it.

My sister on the other hand suffers extreme emotional issues (paranoid schizophrenia as well) from it. That abuse, though over 40 years old, still runs her life.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: jnov on May 02, 2007, 01:02:19 AM
cwby,
as BrokenOkie said, no matter where your healing comes from, here or a thousand other places, i hope you find a way to find peace.

what you said about replying "fine" to inquiries hit home, but for a different reason.  when i was young and people asked how i was i always said "fine" knowing i really wasn't fine.  and i swore that one day i would stop lying and saying fine.  now if i am having a bad day and someone asks how i am i say, "i'll be fine."  cause i know that, even though i am not fine today, i will be again in the future.

i also understand what your mother said.  although my abuse was not nearly to the "extreme" of yours (i am still learning to not compare), i still can remember what i was like "before" and i know what i am like now and i wonder often how my life would have turned out different if it had never changed me from who i used to be.

but .....    :)

stay and share with us if you want.  go and share with others if you want.  peace and joy be with you.

beth
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: ybwc on May 07, 2007, 11:32:54 PM
I deleted my membership (cwby) cause I felt things were just really crappy. I am angry
because the lives of my family were shifted in a direction that I would wish upon no one. what ifs come to mind-a close relationship with my family? a permanent relationship? are a few.
BBM remains an important influence by helping me to accept myself, as one member put it, flawed.
More than this, I kinda feel like I'm going in the right direction for a change.
Thanks again
ybwc (cwby)

Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: CellarDweller115 on May 08, 2007, 05:03:14 AM
I deleted my membership (cwby) cause I felt things were just really crappy. I am angry
because the lives of my family were shifted in a direction that I would wish upon no one. what ifs come to mind-a close relationship with my family? a permanent relationship? are a few.
BBM remains an important influence by helping me to accept myself, as one member put it, flawed.
More than this, I kinda feel like I'm going in the right direction for a change.
Thanks again
ybwc (cwby)


Welcome back, and I'm glad that you feel like you're going in the right direction!  With life, there are many twists and turns.  If you pull a wrong one, it's not surprising.  Just regroup, and move in a new direction.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Brokeback_1 on May 08, 2007, 06:05:40 AM
I'll be damned!

I go away for 10 days and heres cwby!!!

Welcome.

A real and heartfelt welcome.

I am SO glad you posted.

Man, cwby/ybwc----you belong with us, you will find NOTHING but understanding and support on this thread. Stick around and post, talk about whatever you need to talk about, about what others post, what YOU need to post.......and listen as well. We all listen here. IMO this thread is the best kept open secret [lolol] on the whole forum.

I was away for a week and only briefly on the computer--dialup can be awfully frustrating!!-- and people got WORRIED about me. We care in here, and yeah, we care about YOU.
When you write...we know. We've been there. We understand. We will love you for who and what you are.

We spoke months ago and yeah, I remember.

much love to you. No BS. Much love to you. We want you in here
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: jnov on May 08, 2007, 11:13:37 AM
hi ybwc!  (or can i still call you cwby?  ;))

i like quotes and sayings because they help me in a short-hand way to remember what i think is important in life.

so here is one i kept taped by my bed for a while:

in order to discover new lands one must consent to lose sight of the shore for a long time.

in other words (IMO) it's okay to be confused, to feel unsure, to wander aimlessly for a while.  because although it might feel aimless, it probably isn't.  and hell, even if it is, you always end up somewhere eventually!  :D

please stay.  talk, rant, rave, curse, cry, bellow, sulk.  whatever you need.  and like jack says (aka bb_1) we really do care.

beth

p.s. hi jack  ::)  nice to see you back.  ;D
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: paintedshoes on May 08, 2007, 06:34:39 PM
I deleted my membership (cwby) cause I felt things were just really crappy. I am angry
because the lives of my family were shifted in a direction that I would wish upon no one. what ifs come to mind-a close relationship with my family? a permanent relationship? are a few.
BBM remains an important influence by helping me to accept myself, as one member put it, flawed.
More than this, I kinda feel like I'm going in the right direction for a change.
Thanks again
ybwc (cwby)


ybwc/cwby, welcome back home, honey. You did turn into the right direction by coming back where we can all be here to support you, to listen, to care...and we do, for to one extent or another, we have walked in your shoes.  Marc (AmIEnnis) said once that there is no hierarchy of pain.  Pain is what it is, and we have all experienced it. So we understand, sweetheart.  Please come back and talk to us, let us listen and help.   :-* :-* :-*

-Jackie
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: ybwc on May 09, 2007, 07:51:34 AM
thanks again :)
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: ybwc on May 10, 2007, 08:19:12 PM
lots of interesting discussion in masculinity and gay thread. it's taken me a year to finally get what some of you folks are saying. i definitely see myself as an ennis-not really sure of who I am, how to understand masculinity and being gay and tie this all together with physical, sexual and mental abuse.
how did I get through this-I started by accepting it as the norm, therefore no anger. I was numb. I sought affection through sports, school and work on the farm. I developed little attachment to my family. The family was the spoiled goods. I sought out other families and guess what they too suffered the abuse too-did I attract this in my life?-I wonder. I have never met any family that wasn't dysfunctional.
so when I see this I just carry on as if it's another day on the calendar.
well as I got older I saw the effects of abuse. I was afraid to love, I mean really deeply for fear of being hurt all over again. I felt inferior. I put on a darm good front though. I tenaciously succeeded academically and athletically (but to a point) and worked very hard. I never really gave people a chance to get to know me-they'll find out about me and my past.
thanks for listening
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: jnov on May 11, 2007, 12:55:24 AM
ybwc, i soooooo understand what you are saying but i am running out the door right now for the dentist!  i'll come back later tonight.

 :)


okay i am back.
that underlying shame of who you are, or more to the point, of what you have done, what has been done to you.  people would blame, judge, think you disgusting, dirty, marked somehow.

we talked about this a little before on this thread.  keeping up the wall, saying "fine" when people ask how you are, succeeding to the outside world.

i was sexually abused.  but i always felt my abuse wasn't "bad enough" to be considered "real" abuse so i wasn't "good enough" to consider myself abused.  twisted logic but there you have it.  and i read all the books about being a victim of abuse but it never applied to me because i wasn't "really" abused.  and the bottom line was:  it must have been my fault.

i went through years of counseling, all through my adult years, and it was only two years ago that i was finally able to say out loud "it wasn't my fault."  and i believe that intellectually.  and i am beginning to believe it in my heart as well.

but i say all this as a very long winded way of saying: it has only been after slowly, slowly becoming more comfortable talking about it with others, close friends and here, that i have been able to see their reactions and it has helped me learn how to react to myself.  how to be more compassionate with myself.

IAmEnnis said it well when he said that by telling his story to friends, their reactions held up a mirror for him to see how he should/could react to/for himself.

everyone here has "a past."  there is nothing to hide here.  use this space to explore yourself, to venture outside yourself a bit, to start the process of putting it all into words. 

if you want.

beth

Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: ybwc on May 13, 2007, 07:45:41 PM
Thanks Beth, appreciate your openess and can relate to the experience that my abuse wasn't that bad compared to others here (again thanks from earlier post). After all if its men that are abusing me and I'm different then it really isn't too bad.
Bear with me on this next statement-I watch Dr. Phil when I think of it and once in a while he comes out with a few zingers that really impact me. The most recent "zinger" was this past week. He stated,  "abuse changes who you are". Well that was another friggin wall of bricks that fell down for cause I never heard it expressed that way before. Then the head starts a thinking-what was I supposed to be? well I think that's the question I am  seeking to answer.
(Would I want to be str8- heck no)
 :)

Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Rob in Puyallup on May 13, 2007, 08:29:29 PM
Beth and ybwc,

The abuse I suffered happened to me when I was five or so.

Where or who had I been if it hadn't happened?

Hell, I was barely aware that I was an "I" at that time...

Rob
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Brokeback_1 on May 14, 2007, 02:26:29 AM
Thanks Beth, appreciate your openess and can relate to the experience that my abuse wasn't that bad compared to others here (again thanks from earlier post). After all if its men that are abusing me and I'm different then it really isn't too bad.
Bear with me on this next statement-I watch Dr. Phil when I think of it and once in a while he comes out with a few zingers that really impact me. The most recent "zinger" was this past week. He stated,  "abuse changes who you are". Well that was another friggin wall of bricks that fell down for cause I never heard it expressed that way before. Then the head starts a thinking-what was I supposed to be? well I think that's the question I am  seeking to answer.
(Would I want to be str8- heck no)
 :)


OK cowboy, you have had a major revelation here and as a man who has been abused you've no idea how happy I am for you. When we talked in the fall, it was obvious that you were looking and reaching but not yet able to make the move. It is rather joyous to realise that your'critical mass' has built to the point where change is inevitable. I am so happy for you I'm  almost crying.

One thing, my friend: don't compare, don't say your abuse wasn't as bad as someone elses. It simply isn't true. If it affects you, it's as bad as it comes! Don't cut yourself short, you deserve better from yourself and jesus do i mean that!

I would like to suggest that--if you want to do so--you PM people here on the thread. There is not a single person who would not welcome it. Sometimes it's easier, after reading another person's post, to simply ask them questions, or just dialogue.

That whole notion of finding that one has been changed, which you brought up, was something I sensed but shied away from within myself. I didn't really understand for years,  maybe my late teens.  Yeah, 21-22 I think. The issue became unavoidable---I would look, and listen, and watch other men and their reactions to various things because i knew something was wrong. I found to my own  discomfort, denial and downright despair that I was indeed changed, there were pieces missing from my make up, pieces which had been so new and unknown to begin with that I didn't even realise they were THERE at the age of 12, let alone GONE.  Whatever I had originally been was changed radically. Whether you yourself were straight or gay or a hedgehog is immaterial, the problem lies in the way we respond, the way we act and react; the base material of our personality has been altered beyond recognition. 

I had detested older gay men during my teenaged years, blamed them for being --let me call it what it actually WAS: RAPED. It was a natural, and conveniently blanket copout which allowed my very young self to deal with things I was incapable of understanding 'until I was older'.... It had no base in reality whatsoever, the people who had abused me so badly were not gay in any sense of the term, not gay as gay men know gay or society knows gay. They had been criminal sociopaths, criminal psychopaths. They had been criminal personalities on power trips.  I was blaming the wrong people. And then i had to deal with blame itself!

Ironically, the very group I despised--old farts, old GAY farts, old ALCOHOLIC gay farts!!--were the group that helped to put me back together. Once a connection had been made in my head however tenuously, it proved impossible to for me to maintain that sense of blame and loathing for the wrong group of people. It was completely unjust and unjustified, and as soon as i understood this healing began, walls tumbled, gaps were bridged.

I did not want revenge on anyone at all, declared it forfeit, unnecessary. Hate left. Hating the people who had treated me so badly i was lucky to have lived, harmed nobody but ME. And I mean that 100%. It hurts the hater, not the hated. It gives people POWER over you, takes up space in one's head. Do you guys get what i mean by this? I have no idea if the sense is coming through.

It did not replace what had been removed. It merely made it impossible to really heal until I forgave them. that took a long time but it was and is worth it. The wife and I spoke about it yesterday, she said there was no way she could have my charitable attitude. I said it wasn't charity, it was self preservation and a desire to NOT become as miserable inside as the people who had hurt me so badly had been. Get what I mean by that?
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: CellarDweller115 on May 14, 2007, 04:45:44 AM
I did not want revenge on anyone at all, declared it forfeit, unnecessary. Hate left. Hating the people who had treated me so badly i was lucky to have lived, harmed nobody but ME. And I mean that 100%. It hurts the hater, not the hated. It gives people POWER over you, takes up space in one's head. Do you guys get what i mean by this? I have no idea if the sense is coming through.

It did not replace what had been removed. It merely made it impossible to really heal until I forgave them. that took a long time but it was and is worth it. The wife and I spoke about it yesterday, she said there was no way she could have my charitable attitude. I said it wasn't charity, it was self preservation and a desire to NOT become as miserable inside as the people who had hurt me so badly had been. Get what I mean by that?


Having gone through that same process, I can completely agree.

I can remember times where all I wanted was revenge.  Healing didn't come for me until I learned to let go and step away from the anger.  I have reached the point where I can say I hope the people who did what they did to me got better treatment from others than what they gave me.  I also no longer blame them for everything that went wrong in my life.  There comes a time when personal responsibility should be taken for mistakes that someone makes.  It's part of the healing, in my opinion.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Brokeback_1 on May 14, 2007, 05:00:11 AM
Chuck, you have visibly changed so much inwardly and outwardly over the last year that it's mindboggling.

Did you have a clue how goodlooking you were under all that weight you hid behind? And I sometimes wonder if  your lovely personality is something YOU knew about.  You are an example to everyone on this thread and I am so looking forward to seeing you again!
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: CellarDweller115 on May 14, 2007, 05:14:18 AM
Chuck, you have visibly changed so much inwardly and outwardly over the last year that it's mindboggling.

Did you have a clue how goodlooking you were under all that weight you hid behind? And I sometimes wonder if your lovely personality is something YOU knew about. You are an example to everyone on this thread and I am so looking forward to seeing you again!


Looking forward to seeing you too, buddy!

As for how good looking I am, and my personality......let's just say either aspects are not something I'm convinced of, and I'm still working on it.  ;)
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Brokeback_1 on May 14, 2007, 05:21:50 AM
Hell.

Believe it.

Everybody from here who has met you falls in love with you!

And look again in that mirror.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: desertrat on May 14, 2007, 06:36:52 AM
^^ listen to jack, chuck ! he is absolutely right.

 :-* :-* :-* :-* :-*
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: jnov on May 14, 2007, 07:07:52 AM
Thanks Beth, appreciate your openess and can relate to the experience that my abuse wasn't that bad compared to others here (again thanks from earlier post). After all if its men that are abusing me and I'm different then it really isn't too bad.
Bear with me on this next statement-I watch Dr. Phil when I think of it and once in a while he comes out with a few zingers that really impact me. The most recent "zinger" was this past week. He stated,  "abuse changes who you are". Well that was another friggin wall of bricks that fell down for cause I never heard it expressed that way before. Then the head starts a thinking-what was I supposed to be? well I think that's the question I am  seeking to answer.
(Would I want to be str8- heck no)
 :)



we get our inspiration where we can!  even from dr. phil.  ;)

abuse does change you.  irrevocably.  so we grieve who we were or who we would have been but then we learn to accept, like and be kind to who we are.

you were "suppose" to be who you now are.  i am not saying you were "suppose" to be abused so you would turn out how you are now.  no, no, no!!  i am saying there is no "suppose to be."  you are who you are.  and that is good and valid and valuable.  just who you are right now.  imperfect, maybe screwed up maybe not, on a journey.  just like all of us.

Beth and ybwc,

The abuse I suffered happened to me when I was five or so.

Where or who had I been if it hadn't happened?

Hell, I was barely aware that I was an "I" at that time...

Rob

hi rob,
my abuse started when i was in the 4th grade.  i can very clearly remember the girl i was "before" and i grieve her deeply still.  there are days when i think about who i could have been.  but that is a waste of time mostly.  so now i try to find those parts of myself that i most liked from back then and try to feed them, develop them again, bring them back into my life.

i can't imagine what it would be like to not have that identity foundation.  i don't want to patronize and say i understand when i really don't.  and i don't want to give you pity which is demeaning or sympathy if you have already moved past that point.

so i'll just say:
you were "supposed" to be who you now are.  i am not saying you were "supposed" to be abused so you would turn out how you are now.  no, no, no!!  i am saying there is no "supposed to be."  you are who you are.  and that is good and valid and valuable.  just who you are right now.  imperfect, maybe screwed up maybe not, on a journey.  just like all of us.

OK cowboy, you have had a major revelation here and as a man who has been abused you've no idea how happy I am for you. When we talked in the fall, it was obvious that you were looking and reaching but not yet able to make the move. It is rather joyous to realise that your'critical mass' has built to the point where change is inevitable. I am so happy for you I'm  almost crying.

One thing, my friend: don't compare, don't say your abuse wasn't as bad as someone elses. It simply isn't true. If it affects you, it's as bad as it comes! Don't cut yourself short, you deserve better from yourself and jesus do i mean that!

[snip]

I had detested older gay men during my teenaged years, blamed them for being --let me call it what it actually WAS: RAPED. It was a natural, and conveniently blanket copout which allowed my very young self to deal with things I was incapable of understanding 'until I was older'.... It had no base in reality whatsoever, the people who had abused me so badly were not gay in any sense of the term, not gay as gay men know gay or society knows gay. They had been criminal sociopaths, criminal psychopaths. They had been criminal personalities on power trips.  I was blaming the wrong people. And then i had to deal with blame itself!

[snip]

I did not want revenge on anyone at all, declared it forfeit, unnecessary. Hate left. Hating the people who had treated me so badly i was lucky to have lived, harmed nobody but ME. And I mean that 100%. It hurts the hater, not the hated. It gives people POWER over you, takes up space in one's head. Do you guys get what i mean by this? I have no idea if the sense is coming through.

It did not replace what had been removed. It merely made it impossible to really heal until I forgave them. that took a long time but it was and is worth it. The wife and I spoke about it yesterday, she said there was no way she could have my charitable attitude. I said it wasn't charity, it was self preservation and a desire to NOT become as miserable inside as the people who had hurt me so badly had been. Get what I mean by that?

jack, sorry for the snipping.  just to save space.

first, you are absolutely right about not comparing and i am sorry to you, ybcw, if i implied that it was appropriate to compare or that i was condoning comparing.  quite the contrary!

second, i am happy that you are finally using the right word for what happened to you.  it is a very hard word for men to use because it is thought that rape only happens to women and somehow a man can not be raped or, worse yet, it doubles the humiliation of the rape because men are not "supposed" to be raped.

so good for you for being able to use the word to tell what happened to you.

and third, i so agree with you about the revenge thing.  hate and revenge only create and take up negative energy and space within the person wanting the revenge.  it is not conducive to healing and in fact impairs healing.  as you and CD both say, it is only after one can let go of the hate, the feelings of revenge, the negative feelings toward their abuser that the person can start to heal. 
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Rob in Puyallup on May 14, 2007, 09:37:02 AM


Beth and ybwc,

The abuse I suffered happened to me when I was five or so.

Where or who had I been if it hadn't happened?

Hell, I was barely aware that I was an "I" at that time...

Rob

hi rob,
my abuse started when i was in the 4th grade.  i can very clearly remember the girl i was "before" and i grieve her deeply still.  there are days when i think about who i could have been.  but that is a waste of time mostly.  so now i try to find those parts of myself that i most liked from back then and try to feed them, develop them again, bring them back into my life.

i can't imagine what it would be like to not have that identity foundation.  i don't want to patronize and say i understand when i really don't.  and i don't want to give you pity which is demeaning or sympathy if you have already moved past that point.

so i'll just say:
you were "supposed" to be who you now are.  i am not saying you were "supposed" to be abused so you would turn out how you are now.  no, no, no!!  i am saying there is no "supposed to be."  you are who you are.  and that is good and valid and valuable.  just who you are right now.  imperfect, maybe screwed up maybe not, on a journey.  just like all of us.


I know EXACTLY what you mean, believe me. No one can be a better "Rob" than me, and I ain't really all that bad.

It did take me most of my life to realize that, though!

 :-\
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: desertrat on May 14, 2007, 03:35:32 PM
and I ain't really all that bad.


rob, darling, you are the master of understatement  :D

you are great !!!! but i know how hard it is to start apprechiating one's self (i'm still struggling with that one myself)...anyway, it's good that you are who you are !  :-*
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Rob in Puyallup on May 14, 2007, 07:47:20 PM
You know, sweet Martina... it's obvious why so many of us here love you!

Kisses, babe!

Rob
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: ybwc on May 14, 2007, 09:52:16 PM
just a general ty to you all-appreciate the feedback. these discussions have made it clear to me who I've been angry at: I am deeply sorry for a few things I said to a few in here. I realize NOW, as I clear the path ahead of me, that I am very much like these men I was angry at. I don't like myself much so I took it out on them-for which I apologize.

part of the focus my recovery is setting things in order. Recently, I moved out into a very rural area (my roots and environment), surrounded by nature (it's a 100 km drive to work one way)
I have a darn good career but ya know what it's just not me-so I'm figuring out this aspect. I would like to finish my work life working outdoors.

Finally, I think it was unanamous that anger is just another impediment to being well/recovery. No question about that.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Brokeback_1 on May 15, 2007, 12:35:42 AM
just a general ty to you all-appreciate the feedback. these discussions have made it clear to me who I've been angry at: I am deeply sorry for a few things I said to a few in here. I realize NOW, as I clear the path ahead of me, that I am very much like these men I was angry at. I don't like myself much so I took it out on them-for which I apologize.

part of the focus my recovery is setting things in order. Recently, I moved out into a very rural area (my roots and environment), surrounded by nature (it's a 100 km drive to work one way)
I have a darn good career but ya know what it's just not me-so I'm figuring out this aspect. I would like to finish my work life working outdoors.

Finally, I think it was unanamous that anger is just another impediment to being well/recovery. No question about that.
You, my friend, have nothing, absolutely nothing to be sorry for. If you think you hurt or offended people at some point, send those people a PM and tell them why, simply apologise. You will find the response very good, most people --decent people--will understand immediately when they receive an explanation. As a matter of fact I really urge you to do so. Why? Because it helps heal. You will be blown away , IMO, by the responses you get. Some may not answer, true....and you know what, it doesn't matter. The point is the action YOU take, the action showing a change of direction, a willingness to change. The mere fact of apologising  causes change.

Many years ago, I verbally dumped all over a man in public for some of the same reasons you have spoken of. As I got better I understood that what i had done was wrong wrong wrong. It was suggested that I simply...speak to him. Well, I was really neurotic about that and it took convincing but one day I saw him and mentally said WTF, just DO IT. So I quietly asked if he would let me talk with him. He said OK, and I could tell he was expecting BS but I just...apologised. Said I was very wrong. He was taken aback, and accepted that apology.

It wasn't as if I expected us to become busom buddies or anything, just wanted to make the attempt to right a wrong I'd committed. So I apologised and made to go, when he said no, stay a moment.  I know you really regret what you said and I accept that, it's ok. Just tell me WHY.

So I did. He was blown away.

We have been friends ever since.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: desertrat on May 15, 2007, 02:56:29 AM
just a general ty to you all-appreciate the feedback. these discussions have made it clear to me who I've been angry at: I am deeply sorry for a few things I said to a few in here. I realize NOW, as I clear the path ahead of me, that I am very much like these men I was angry at. I don't like myself much so I took it out on them-for which I apologize.

part of the focus my recovery is setting things in order. Recently, I moved out into a very rural area (my roots and environment), surrounded by nature (it's a 100 km drive to work one way)
I have a darn good career but ya know what it's just not me-so I'm figuring out this aspect. I would like to finish my work life working outdoors.

Finally, I think it was unanamous that anger is just another impediment to being well/recovery. No question about that.

good luck with all those changes in your life ! i hope each step will take you one step closer to happiness. life is too short and too precious to be unhappy ! and whenever you need somebody, don't forget that we are there for you !  ;)
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: ybwc on May 17, 2007, 08:49:46 AM
more abuse-started with my father. next was my uncle 2x at age ten, my uncle 19. I was freaked out and didn't understand what was really happening. The next was school, I was 12 they were 16 and 17 year old-they had built a clubhouse under their house (two brothers).
week or so later my brother made some remarks about what he heard about ME. To this day I haven't figured out how to handle this-yeah I'm pissed at him. I just sit here blank..what the heck did I do. I can't stand going back to the place where this took place-it drove me away from there for 20 years. Such bs to deal with. I've never been able to settle in a place long. As a result
this is the hard one to let out of the bag- I have quit my job too many times to tell you-fortunately I'm good at what I do, I get good references and there's a shortage in my field I get picked up right away. Earlier I said the job's not for me, I wonder if thats the issue or is it this crap thats influencing it. a few friends just shake their heads and say well when are ya moving next. It hurts. I just can't explain it so they get it. I haven't had much stability in my life.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: jnov on May 17, 2007, 10:03:42 AM
ybwc,

i don't know you.  i won't presume or assume that i do.  so please forgive me if i say the wrong thing.

but i gotta tell you, as i was reading your post the voice in my head kept saying:  keep talking.  just keep talking.  it needs to come out.

we are here to listen.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: paintedshoes on May 17, 2007, 03:09:24 PM
ybwc, I think jnov is right...let it out, talk about it, bring the pain out of the shadows and shed light on it, so it is not as frightening to look at.  If you don't want to do it openly, feel free to pm me, or anyone here and we will listen, honey.  :-*

-Jackie
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: ybwc on May 17, 2007, 03:29:48 PM
Thanks Jackie and Beth(jnov). I do need to talk. At my worst times I was able to apply the tournique just tight enough just to move foreward one step ahead the other to get where I needed to go.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: paintedshoes on May 17, 2007, 03:34:01 PM
See my pm, honey.  :-*
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Rob in Puyallup on May 17, 2007, 03:39:47 PM
ybwc,

For many of my years I felt as though 'victimhood' was a part of my makeup. Expecting to be used, abused and assaulted by those around me. Feeling so small, so insignificant, so little, so weak that anyone could take advantage of me whenever they wanted. The way it felt, so the way I allowed it to be.

I wouldn't say "no" to anyone, afraid I'd get in trouble, at least, or offend someone at the most.

Was just so much easier to give in, than to face or confront those around me. I still fall into that 'stream' on occasion, though most times I catch myself now. I finally realized that if I allow things to happen to me, they would. I learned to say "no". Even if that "no" causes me to blush or shake in my shoes...

Hugs for you, Cwby. We're here for each other, all of us.

Rob
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: CellarDweller115 on May 18, 2007, 06:38:13 PM
For many of my years I felt as though 'victimhood' was a part of my makeup. Expecting to be used, abused and assaulted by those around me. Feeling so small, so insignificant, so little, so weak that anyone could take advantage of me whenever they wanted. The way it felt, so the way I allowed it to be.

I wouldn't say "no" to anyone, afraid I'd get in trouble, at least, or offend someone at the most.

Was just so much easier to give in, than to face or confront those around me. I still fall into that 'stream' on occasion, though most times I catch myself now. I finally realized that if I allow things to happen to me, they would. I learned to say "no". Even if that "no" causes me to blush or shake in my shoes...


Wow.  Rob, it was like you pulled my thoughts from my head, and said them better than I could.  You so nailed it.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Rob in Puyallup on May 18, 2007, 08:45:27 PM
(((((((CHUCKIE)))))))
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: desertrat on May 19, 2007, 03:01:59 AM
ybwc,

For many of my years I felt as though 'victimhood' was a part of my makeup. Expecting to be used, abused and assaulted by those around me. Feeling so small, so insignificant, so little, so weak that anyone could take advantage of me whenever they wanted. The way it felt, so the way I allowed it to be.

I wouldn't say "no" to anyone, afraid I'd get in trouble, at least, or offend someone at the most.

Was just so much easier to give in, than to face or confront those around me. I still fall into that 'stream' on occasion, though most times I catch myself now. I finally realized that if I allow things to happen to me, they would. I learned to say "no". Even if that "no" causes me to blush or shake in my shoes...

Hugs for you, Cwby. We're here for each other, all of us.

Rob

rob, i more and more get the impression we are related  :D you are so right - it is so much easier to give in and secretly feel sorry for myself than actually standing up and saying "NO". it still is a daily battle. but the interesting thing is, i always thought that people would stop liking me when i wasn't cooperative 24/7. now, the interesting thing is that they actually showed MORE respect towards me as soon as i stopped being the fool who just says "yes".  ;)
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Rob in Puyallup on May 19, 2007, 09:29:58 AM
Martina, babe,

That's been my experience, too.

For me "no" is almost a mark of "maturity". A mark of adulthood, even.

I'm not 6 anymore, felt as though as was for a very long time. Within the past couple years I aged 41 years. Not always a bad thing!

Kisses,
Rob
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: ybwc on May 22, 2007, 06:59:47 PM
I thought I would share some notes I wrote down I actually don't rmemeber when or where..hmmm.
 
"IT"
I feel IT
a lump in my throat.
My heart winces with sadness over IT
IT consumes me like a cloud over a field
the sunshine is all around but I feel darkness
what does it take to rid me of IT

"FOCUS"
Tunnel Vision
With no Access
Leading to a Safe place

"Inclusiveness"
Just to be reminded of what I have
It's clear
The ache is gone, the body is full again with no unsatisfied holes or parts
Where I am is more tolerable, liveable
No desire to move back
Looking forward to Saudi, England
(I wrote this one on the plane-pulling a geographic)

"Centre-Self"
Whole
Connected
Sum of parts...Interacting
(a happier time)

"Anger"
Anger-my second skin
Colourless, scentless yet porous with sadness

Thank you for letting me post.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: paintedshoes on May 22, 2007, 07:07:19 PM
ybwc....your "notes' are poetry. Some beautiful, some terribly sad, all filled with experience and awareness of self.  Thank you for sharing them with us.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: ybwc on May 22, 2007, 07:10:47 PM
I found another one:
"The Need To Go"
Burning
Unsatisfied
Never ending need
Nervous excitement, sadness, happiness
Need to hold
Need to be held
Want to let go

I was a canuck RN working at a wonderful Chicago Hospital (CINN). There I met Pete. I spent the entire night with Pete talking about our lives-our abuses. To say the least I fell pretty hard for Pete over the next few months. I (as usual) went into sabotage mode and left when my contract was up. I am sad to have left this man behind, I should be so lucky.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Brokeback_1 on May 23, 2007, 03:32:47 AM
What depresses me are the damndest things.
 
I'm not depressed NOW but earlier this month, oh yeah.You all know why;  and you all  helped like brothers and sisters. The PM's I got were some of the most beautiful things I have ever read. I started to put this in Mental health but put this here, instead.

My childhood molestation is old news. The events themselves don't affect me and haven't for years; what affects me are things stemming from those events, like low esteem and a general feeling that if I create something it must not be very good....because IIIII made it. It stems from  the long-ago abuse I wrote about, directly, the final experience, the final day. 

The depression was caused by READING what I wrote from the perspective of a normal person, a person who had not been brutalised. I made myself look at it from THAT perspective because the friend on here I wrote it for had no experience of such things and I was nervous about how she might react;...it....horrified ME. Appalled me. I couldn't believe what had been done OR how I simply shrug and live with it, fairly well actually.

It is old dead news, yet it is old dead news which  causes problems until I recognise them, trace them and erase them.  That damage will always be present, what matters is how I handle it. It is primarily attitudinal. Yet that abuse was so sooo sick, and I simply deal with it. Writing and reading it from 'the normal person's viewpoint' shook me up very badly.

This is a perfect example--add it to The Gardening Club report roflmao--I sent  a story I wrote to an author I respect and she said remarkable things about it. What I actually TOLD someone on here was 'it was nice of her to imply that my story wasn't bad.' To be blunt, that sort of thing  stems from being used and treated like literal toilet paper, with the result that anything I make must be shit. It is not true, I know that. But it is my lifelong first reaction. If I create it, it's shit.

Therapy won't do much, the attitudes are simply...there. They will always be there. What matters is how I deal with them. The first step is to recognise and understand  that such attitudes are grotesque, life destroying, and tell them to go to hell. But every once in a while, something will simply ...destroy me, like what I read and wrote.

I'm glad it happened, glad I wrote it, glad I read it from 'that other' POV...

I took the action and sent it off to my friend, and to  a few dearly loved posters on this thread.

And I sent it to my wife.

Now, she knew, but she did not KNOW, follow my meaning here?

She waited until I left for NY to read it because she wanted to read it slowly, by herself. We both regretted that after I got back because she wanted to just hold me and I was 2500 miles away. Luckily, she also didn't smash  anything valuable, anything from her grandmother, after she read it---she  just  picked up and hurled the first thing she saw at a wall and this is not--NOT-- a violent woman lol.

She was horrified even though I had told her a long time ago.

She said I was her husband and the love of her life, and she wanted to beat them to a pulp with her bare hands for what they had done to me.  She said, too, that I KNEW how she felt about people who did things to youngsters. She reacted not just as my wife and the love of MY life but as a woman and a mother. But mostly, she reacted the way someone would react when they finally understood what had been done to the love of their life. And since she is also the love of MY life I wish we had read it together...and we will, too.

Today I was told I had done something very very well by my friends on the bbq comittee. I did, too. I know it. A part of me said 'yeah right,sure I did'. BUT another part of me said 'Yeah. RIGHT!  That sort of thing is BS'.  I told the other part to go away and told my friends THANK YOU. This is how I deal with it when I am not depressed....So I guess I am not depressed any more lolol

Thanks. For everything.

Some of the best people alive frequent this thread :-* :-* :-*
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Brokeback_1 on May 23, 2007, 03:34:05 AM
ybwc---you are awesome.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Brokeback_1 on May 23, 2007, 03:37:54 AM
Martina? Rob??

The word NO can be the most liberating word ever uttered. The word NO is incredible. It can cause one mantal and physical trauma and  torment when you say it, and can make you not give a damned, simply because you said...NO.

I was this wierd teenager who had a hero-worship of Charles DeGaulle, because he said and meant...NON. Said it and meant it spectacularly!

I like that word lolol
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: gattaca on May 23, 2007, 03:55:45 AM

She said I was her husband and the love of her life, and she wanted to beat them to a pulp with her bare hands for what they had done to me.  She said, too, that I KNEW how she felt about people who did things to youngsters. She reacted not just as my wife and the love of MY life but as a woman and a mother. But mostly, she reacted the way someone would react when they finally understood what had been done to the love of their life. And since she is also the love of MY life I wish we had read it together...

Some of the best people alive frequent this thread :-* :-* :-*

...you have a wonderful person in your life - hang onto to her  - never ever let go!... and yeah I can image the trembling rage she felt.   I'm so glad you posted an update as I have been thinking about the earlier PMs and have been hoping your open letter went well.   Vincent
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: TwistsBitch on May 25, 2007, 04:39:13 AM
On reactions of partners: On two occasions when I've had long-term partners tell me they were treated badly by someone I had the same reaction, wanting to defend them & vigorously punish the perpetrators.  Yet when I think about the perpetrator that abused me I just feel sick & have only ever mustered a weak impotent sense of anger.  In general having been abused seems to have ruined the ability to be angry.  I am almost envious of people that can be angry & get it out of their system & find the idea of anger management courses in the traditional sense to be quite absurd.  Any anger aroused in me is always turned inwards.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: jnov on May 27, 2007, 11:54:52 PM
On reactions of partners: On two occasions when I've had long-term partners tell me they were treated badly by someone I had the same reaction, wanting to defend them & vigorously punish the perpetrators.  Yet when I think about the perpetrator that abused me I just feel sick & have only ever mustered a weak impotent sense of anger.  In general having been abused seems to have ruined the ability to be angry.  I am almost envious of people that can be angry & get it out of their system & find the idea of anger management courses in the traditional sense to be quite absurd.  Any anger aroused in me is always turned inwards.

i've got a bunch of family visiting for graduation so i missed a couple of days.

but i wanted to say that anger turned inwards is still anger.  anger is an emotion i have an extremely hard time with because i do the same thing - turn it inward.  pretend i am not angry.  and occasionally i tell people that i can not let my anger out because i am afraid that if i did i would not be able to re-contain it and i am scared of who or what i might become, out of control and destructive.

but depression is anger.  it is just anger aimed at yourself.

just wanted to say that.

and jack, thanks for the update.  i was also curious about how your wife took the "reading."  thanks for sharing that.

Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Brokeback_1 on May 31, 2007, 05:00:00 PM
I have to say this:

The people who post on our thread and came to Colorado were, for me,  the heart and soul of the BBQ.

That says something.....
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: ybwc on May 31, 2007, 07:45:45 PM
Had I been paying attention and then planned properly I'd be at the BBQ in Colorado. There will be other opportunities and I will attend.

Today I felt like I had been hit by a MAC truck, absolutely every muscle in my body feels sore and tired. The last couple of weeks I suspect are linked to this. I couldn't face going into work and so booked off today, slept till late afternoon-very unusual. I had unpleasant dreams during my sleep. Part of my recovery is understanding the effects of abuse on other family members. I am cutting them alot of slack. Before it was anger between us when we communicated. Now I understand the link between their abuse and their behavior is the reason.



Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Brokeback_1 on May 31, 2007, 10:28:17 PM
ybcw, next time...it would have been amazing to meet you. And what a feeling, for you to be cutting family members slack. You sound like a different man.

By the way, ((((((((COWBOY!!!)))))))))
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: ybwc on June 01, 2007, 09:57:38 AM
 :D Brokeback_1 ..it would have been great to experience the heart and soul you speak of. Its time to drop the flimsy walls I put up to get involved with you folks. All work and no play-I've had enough.
jnov-I can relate to the fear of what might come out of me: uncontrolled anger, rage. tears are not enough.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Amiennis on June 02, 2007, 05:30:04 PM
Dear co-survivors,

Having recently returned from the Brokeback BBQ in Estes Park - an experience of a lifetime - I feel it is time to give you an update of how my life has changed over the past 7 months (first 17 years, see http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=17887.75 and http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=17887.165 - I will spare you the remaining 25 years for now).
I will be concise as ever ;):
- I have stopped eating away the pain and lost 45 pounds as a result of it. I am back to the weight I had in my 20's, which I never thought I would reach again. I am still stunned. I even have a six pack ;D.
- I have become much more open to my family and friends, after having lived as a virtual recluse for over a decade. They all think I am another person, and I have to agree, I haven't felt like this in a long, long time - maybe never.
- I have met the most wonderful people on this forum (and in Estes Park :)), some of whom I am  honoured to call my friends now.
- among those wonderful people was the most wonderful man, who is now my partner. Something else I never imagined would ever happen to me again: to be in a fulfilling relationship.

Obviously, I am very aware of the fact that there is still a lot of work that remains to be done, I realise everything will not be hunky dory from now on.
But still, I have made it this far, I have reached a place that I have always dreamt about but never thought I (me, "who did I think I was to deserve anything positive?") would even come close to.

"Miracles do happen."

Thank you, all. I feel so grateful.


Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Brokeback_1 on June 02, 2007, 05:33:33 PM
Dear co-survivors,

Having recently returned from the Brokeback BBQ in Estes Park - an experience of a lifetime - I feel it is time to give you an update of how my life has changed over the past 7 months (first 17 years, see http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=17887.75 and http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=17887.165 - I will spare you the remaining 25 years for now).
I will be concise as ever ;):
- I have stopped eating away the pain and lost 45 pounds as a result of it. I am back to the weight I had in my 20's, which I never thought I would reach again. I am still stunned. I even have a six pack ;D.
- I have become much more open to my family and friends, after having lived as a virtual recluse for over a decade. They all think I am another person, and I have to agree, I haven't felt like this in a long, long time - maybe never.
- I have met the most wonderful people on this forum (and in Estes Park :)), some of whom I am  honoured to call my friends now.
- among those wonderful people was the most wonderful man, who is now my partner. Something else I never imagined would ever happen to me again: to be in a fulfilling relationship.

Obviously, I am very aware of the fact that there is still a lot of work that remains to be done, I realise everything will not be hunky dory from now on.
But still, I have made it this far, I have reached a place that I have always dreamt about but never thought I (me, "who did I think I was to deserve anything positive?") would even come close to.

"Miracles do happen."

Thank you, all. I feel so grateful.



Marc where are you now??
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Amiennis on June 02, 2007, 06:04:43 PM
Dear co-survivors,

Having recently returned from the Brokeback BBQ in Estes Park - an experience of a lifetime - I feel it is time to give you an update of how my life has changed over the past 7 months (first 17 years, see http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=17887.75 and http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=17887.165 - I will spare you the remaining 25 years for now).
I will be concise as ever ;):
- I have stopped eating away the pain and lost 45 pounds as a result of it. I am back to the weight I had in my 20's, which I never thought I would reach again. I am still stunned. I even have a six pack ;D.
- I have become much more open to my family and friends, after having lived as a virtual recluse for over a decade. They all think I am another person, and I have to agree, I haven't felt like this in a long, long time - maybe never.
- I have met the most wonderful people on this forum (and in Estes Park :)), some of whom I am  honoured to call my friends now.
- among those wonderful people was the most wonderful man, who is now my partner. Something else I never imagined would ever happen to me again: to be in a fulfilling relationship.

Obviously, I am very aware of the fact that there is still a lot of work that remains to be done, I realise everything will not be hunky dory from now on.
But still, I have made it this far, I have reached a place that I have always dreamt about but never thought I (me, "who did I think I was to deserve anything positive?") would even come close to.

"Miracles do happen."

Thank you, all. I feel so grateful.



Marc where are you now??

In Texas, with Mr Wonderful :).
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: BrokenOkie on June 02, 2007, 06:42:55 PM
Obviously, I am very aware of the fact that there is still a lot of work that remains to be done, I realise everything will not be hunky dory from now on.
But still, I have made it this far, I have reached a place that I have always dreamt about but never thought I (me, "who did I think I was to deserve anything positive?") would even come close to.

"Miracles do happen."

Thank you, all. I feel so grateful.

Marc -  Welcome back to your life; the one that yes, you most certainly have always deserved.  Soar, sweet man.  No more trailer.  Best wishes to you and 'Mr. Wonderful'.
 
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Brokeback_1 on June 02, 2007, 10:08:55 PM
Marc is a true sweetheart. One of the best guys I ever met.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: paintedshoes on June 02, 2007, 10:25:20 PM


Some of the best people alive frequent this thread :-* :-* :-*
And you are one of them, dear Jack.  I have been behind because of the BBQ...where I had the honor of meeting you and your Katrina and your son, Nic.  An honor for which I will be grateful, always.  Jack, you present yourself as an open, honest, aware human being, one who loves and is loved.  What happened to you is so horrendous that it defies description, but...it does NOT define who and what you are.  YOU do that!  Every day, by living, and loving your remarkable wife and son. I, for one, am PROUD to know you, Jack.  Thank you for being part of my life. 
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: paintedshoes on June 02, 2007, 10:29:31 PM
Marc is a true sweetheart. One of the best guys I ever met.
You bet! 
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: CellarDweller115 on June 02, 2007, 10:37:01 PM
Hiya Marc!

Said this in the bbq thread, but I'm saying it here, too!

I'm so happy for you!   ((((((((((Marc))))))))))
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: jnov on June 03, 2007, 12:38:28 AM
i came in here right now to write something and then caught up on my reading and thought: shit, now i can't write what i was gonna.

but i am gonna anyway and i hope it is okay.
and i am so sad i missed meeting any and all of you at the BBQ but frankly i am a little glad to because i could never say what i need to say if i knew you in person.  if i knew there was a possibility of having to look you in the eyes and see your possible pity, or hear your voices on the voice full of sympathy.  i don't


shit, i was about to write "deserve it" and realized how far i HAVEN'T come.

i'm just having a bit of a down time right now.  i will be fine tomorrow.  but right now i am sad.  i just finished reading a book and am currently reading some great QAF fanfic and

so i have mentioned once before here i think about how i

i will be 43 in 7 days.  and in almost 43 years i have never been in a relationship.  i have never fallen in love with someone who fell in love with me.  i have had crushes and i have momentarily liked someone and i have certainly had sex with many someones who meant nothing or something to me.  and i thought i fell in love once to a guy who was engaged the whole time i knew him but i would have followed him anywhere on this earth.  but he married the girl he was engaged to.  surprise!

and i have failed in my life.  what exactly is wrong with me that i seem incapable of falling in love?
i have a great family.  i take care of my brother's kids and i love them.  i have a large family and we are all very close and i love them.  i have a multitude of god-children and i love them.  but i have never been in an adult, sexual, mutually loving relationship.

i keep thinking i must have done something horribly wrong in a past life and my karma requires i pay for it now.  or maybe it is just a defect in me in this life.  or maybe ..

but it is the ultimate failure of my life.  i have failed at my life.

i try to find reason, saying well if i were in a relationship i never would have been in a position to move halfway around the world to come commit the next ten years of my life taking care of my brother's kids.  maybe i'll meet the right person when i am fifty or sixty.  maybe i

it is weird because getting married and raising my kids had always been the one, the only thing i ever wanted to do. 

so i have read these things and just got through two weeks of entertaining family who flew all the way here to celebrate my niece graduating from high school.  and i read about all you wonderful people and the changes you have made in your lives (marc, yea for you!! seriously, go celebrate your life!! big smiles for you and your Mr. Wonderful).

probably just the birthday thing kicking me in the butt right now but i am feeling very much like a failure.

don't worry i'll be over it in a day or two.

just needed to get it out.

thanks for listening.
beth
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: jnov on June 03, 2007, 01:24:03 AM
okay but you know what is really strange?  i have a great life.

i mean i really do.

my brother makes a lot of money and he totally supports me.  financially of course but he pretty much allows me to spend what i want on whatever i want.  i run the house (almost always!).  at home he plays by my rules.

i love taking care of the kids.  they are incredibly great kids.  i always wanted to have kids and raise them and now i get to.  in a great environment (okay, i would have preferred if we stayed living in taiwan but moving to singapore is okay too).  i get to travel, in a very comfortable style, to all kinds of amazing countries i otherwise would never have seen.

i have good friends.  granted most of them are in another country but still. 

although, tangent here, i met my "best friend" in taiwan.  when i was a kid, up until 2nd grade, i had a best friend.  colleen.  we were inseparable.  she moved to another town and our parents made sure we got to see each other.  but then her parents got divorced and she moved to another state.

and i missed her all my life.  i used to equate it to having a sister that died.  just a hole left in my heart that nothing and no one could fill up.  i looked her up when i was in college.  found her, called her.  talked to her.  she obviously didn't need me in the same way i needed her. (the sexual abuse started in 4th grade, right after she moved away.  gee, i wonder if that has anything to do with all this?!)

then in taiwan i met patti.  the hole filled up.  then she and her family moved back to the states.  no big deal.  we have email and the internet and i spend every summer in the states.  except the first year they moved into a house with no internet connections (amish country in indiana; her husband is a minister and does not make much money) and i never heard from her.  i think she emailed maybe 3-4 times the entire first year.  which was also the year my brother made us move to singapore, which the kids and i hated, so i really needed her.  again, guess she didn't need me in the same way i needed her.  so lots of hurt and anger on my part there.  trying to get over it and be adult and mature about it.  i'm usually not very successful.

anyway.  so i really have a good life.  my house is filled (and i do mean FILLED) with beautiful things.  prisons can be quite beautiful sometimes.

well....

but i have a good life.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: desertrat on June 03, 2007, 03:05:11 AM
jnov, i hope you won't feel offended when i tell you to NEVER believe that it is bad karma that keeps you from being happy. because believing that brings you into a trap - you just settle with what you have, believe you can't change it. and that it plainly wrong. i'm sure you're perfectly capable of falling in love - it just hasn't happened yet. never stop hoping and waiting - it certainly will happen some day. think of jack - "well, i won't."  ;)
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: desertrat on June 03, 2007, 03:07:46 AM
marc, i can't tell you how happy i am for you ! how much i hoped and prayed that this time in the US would be the start of a new era for you. it seems it happened, and even more than anyone could have hoped and wished for. big (((hugs))) & lots of love !  :-*
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Brokeback_1 on June 03, 2007, 03:36:21 AM
jnov send me a PM. OK?

Marc I will try to call you tomorrow evening at Malcolm's
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: jnov on June 03, 2007, 03:44:17 AM
the whole karma thing - its one big mystery.

so when i say something like that and people ask me: do you believe in it? i usually respond by saying: i don't not believe in it because who knows. (http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s36/somh/icons/shrugs.gif)

but i don't use it as an excuse.  just one way out of many to sometimes try to make sense out of it all.

Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: jnov on June 03, 2007, 03:46:48 AM
jnov, i hope you won't feel offended when i tell you to NEVER believe that it is bad karma that keeps you from being happy. because believing that brings you into a trap - you just settle with what you have, believe you can't change it. and that it plainly wrong. i'm sure you're perfectly capable of falling in love - it just hasn't happened yet. never stop hoping and waiting - it certainly will happen some day. think of jack - "well, i won't."  ;)

and martina, thanks for the thoughts, and not to be rude, but there is no certainty that it will happen one day.  there is in fact a very good chance that it will never happen.  life is like that sometimes.

maybe that is why this movie effected me so much.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: desertrat on June 03, 2007, 04:14:30 AM
of course there are never guarantees in life....there you are right. BUT - think about what you want in a partner...is that SO unrealistic that it is IMPOSSIBLE that you'll ever meet a person you could love ? OR - maybe you fell in love already but didn't realize it because you don't "allow" yourself falling in love ?

i think most of the time we ourselves are in our own way when it is about happiness...we all have to get to a point where we love ourselves enough to allow ourselves to be happy.

(wow, that was a tough one  ;))
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Brokeback_1 on June 03, 2007, 05:02:32 AM
of course there are never guarantees in life....there you are right. BUT - think about what you want in a partner...is that SO unrealistic that it is IMPOSSIBLE that you'll ever meet a person you could love ? OR - maybe you fell in love already but didn't realize it because you don't "allow" yourself falling in love ?

i think most of the time we ourselves are in our own way when it is about happiness...we all have to get to a point where we love ourselves enough to allow ourselves to be happy.

(wow, that was a tough one  ;))
a tough one and a hard one. Especially because we are all similiar to onions in that there are layers and layers to peel....new emotional situations, new work situations, new friendship situations, all give the aftereffects of our abuse new outlets. You think you are done with it and all of a sudden---KABOOM, it has shown up in a new and bizarre way. It gets exhausting.

I decided I am going into therapy again. Why? I felt so inadequate that yesterday I was snippy all day with my wife. WLAGuy walked and talked me through it all, step by step, with absolute logic. I realised I was snippy because I didn't feel good enough  about myself. The bbq emotions brought all this out...and after speaking with Joe, I sat down and apologised to her, told her I'd figured out that I was pushing her away all day, refusing to kiss her because I felt I wasn't good enough to kiss my own wife. In other words she deserved someone better then me, good enough to kiss her.
We had a long talk. She was completely shocked. And completely supportive. Jesus, I asked her if she really wanted to be married to somebody with so much baggage and she almost choked, asked me how could I doubt it...I don't doubt it. I love her crazy. But I also don't feel good/ worthy enough. It is quite nutty.

Well at least I'll deal with it. I was in therapy for abuse years ago; I had an excellent therapist with whom I did a good and very focused job, too.

But this is a new situation, a marriage, a bed, a life partnership. The aftereffects found themselves a new way and a new place to show up.  Not for nothing I cannot accept these particular aftereffects, hence the therapy. I should have known something was up---a new something--when I had such abyssmal reactions internally to praise about stories i've written. Same thing--new situation, new outlet for the damage to my personality to pop up; in this case, let's give it a caeserian and yank the thing out FAST. I love this woman far too much to feel like I cheat her when i kiss her, that she deserves better, that I'm not good enough. It is completely unfair to both of us. I deserve her. I'm not going to allow the residue of 40 year old  abuse make me feel 'not good enough' because I AM good enough.

My best friend--well best MALE friend, my wife is my best friend----I called him earlier, and he said to do something immediately; it surprised me that we both had the same reaction to this discovery, namely do not allow it to grow, abort it immediately and have a pro guide the recovery. I love my wife too much for this crap.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: jnov on June 03, 2007, 08:12:37 AM
ya'know jack, you are right, and a good reminder to me too.  life cycles around and issues that were once "dealt with" come around as we move through new or different phases of our lives.
thanks for the reminder.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: jnov on June 03, 2007, 08:14:31 AM
martina, i understand what you are saying.   :)

i haven't given up hope.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: desertrat on June 03, 2007, 08:28:05 AM
martina, i understand what you are saying.   :)

i haven't given up hope.

that's good ! i dont kow you personally, but from what i've met you aroudn this place, you're a wonderful, lovely woman - and i would love to see you happy.  :-* :-*
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: desertrat on June 03, 2007, 08:31:47 AM
jack, that is a very wise decision ! right now, nothing is lost, nothing is ruined. but if you leave it and don't get help in time, if you feel ike you have to push people you love away - then relationships might get damaged. finding a therapist is the best decision ! (((hugs)))
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: TwistsBitch on June 03, 2007, 04:11:01 PM
...new emotional situations, new work situations, new friendship situations, all give the aftereffects of our abuse new outlets. You think you are done with it and all of a sudden---KABOOM, it has shown up in a new and bizarre way. It gets exhausting....

Ain't that the truth.  I will be trying for a baby sometime soon & that's opened a whole new can of worms.  I will attempt to gather my thoughts on that some time & post them as they are driving me crazy & it might just give me a few moments of peace to get them out of my head in some fashion.

(((hugs))) to everyone dealing with all this crap too.  Hang in there guys & gals :)
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Amiennis on September 08, 2007, 06:32:43 PM
This place has been quiet for a while...

Today, I have felt like the past was overwhelming me again, as if I was/am never going to escape its claws - not unlike what Jack described before.
Just when I think things are taking a turn for the better, it raises its ugly head again.
Will I ever be able to really trust anyone again? To get rid of that paralysing fear that in the end, people will ... me anyway, no matter what they may do or say now.

Ever, ever...?
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: paintedshoes on September 08, 2007, 07:48:02 PM
Oh, my darling Marc....

I so wish I could embrace you, and let you KNOW that you are not alone, that you CAN trust, my dear friend, you CAN.

Always, my darling, always.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Brokeback_1 on September 08, 2007, 09:09:53 PM
Marc, love ya dude!

http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=22865.msg998560#msg998560

Huntingbuddy posted that in the SF thread---I was stunned. I keep thinking it was 30 or so years ago I got molested so badly and no it wasn't, it was the summer of  1967!!!

40 freakin years ago!! And this has been the most stressed out summer since that one. Radiation poisoning, Katrina sick, the house a shambles....

Anniversary's suck
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: paintedshoes on September 08, 2007, 09:13:34 PM
Marc, love ya dude!

http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=22865.msg998560#msg998560

Huntingbuddy posted that in the SF thread---I was stunned. I keep thinking it was 30 or so years ago I got molested so badly and no it wasn't, it was the summer of  1967!!!

40 freakin years ago!! And this has been the most stressed out summer since that one. Radiation poisoning, Katrina sick, the house a shambles....

Anniversary's suck

But...............

Anniversaries also require acceptance, Jack.  Something I have learned.  One must deal with or die.  I chose to live. So have you, my friend, so have you.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: conny on September 09, 2007, 12:29:01 AM
In general having been abused seems to have ruined the ability to be angry.  I am almost envious of people that can be angry & get it out of their system & find the idea of anger management courses in the traditional sense to be quite absurd.  Any anger aroused in me is always turned inwards.

this is a bit of a late reaction to this,but i hadn`t been here in a while(bit of a time out),sorry!

oh wow,i so recognize this,but i`ve never asked myself if that was cause of the abuse,i always thought it was just part of me and part of the way i grew up with a dominating mom. But indeed i almost never get angry,oh i do but i dont express it,most of the time it stayes inside of me.i hate fighting, wheater its for physical or with words, and i still can`t handle it,i shut down or i walk away.
just recently i started sort of therapy to work on this
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: jnov on September 09, 2007, 12:35:58 AM
we never can escape our past.  the emotional memories are there forever i think.  and so are the instinctual emotional responses.  so often it takes conscious decision-making on our part to try a new emotional response.  and then conscious control over how we behave to break old patterns.

eg.  i don't trust men, least of all men in my family because of my past abuse.  but i am now living with my brother taking care of his kids.  and because i have made a long term commitment to the kids my brother controls much of my life (in terms of where we live, for how long, etc.).  over the past four years there have been several times when i will create huge arguments with him in my head because of how i think he will respond in a certain situation.  my old emotional memories (feelings of powerlessness and lack of trust) combine with my old emotional responses (to become defensive and ready to fight all the while 'knowing' that i am powerless) would make me have these long internal battles with him and then what would happen when the situation actually arose or was discussed in person?  he would be completely reasonable and actually listen and respond to what i wanted or was saying!!  (this particular brother was never involved in my past abuse.  and he knows about it and is sympathetic about it.)

so now, when i find myself starting one of those arguments with him in my head i say to myself: "beth, trust in him.  he has always listened to you in the past so trust that he will be reasonable this time."  and then when i actually talk to him about something, instead of leading with the defensive, i lead with an assumption of being listened to.  it has made a big difference, NOT IN HIM, but in me. 

his behavior hasn't changed but i have found a big change in myself, in my anxiety levels, in my ability to trust in him and then that has spread to me being able to trust other men in intimate situations.

but it took conscious effort on my part to change my own emotional responses and then my behavior based on those emotions.  not easy and not a continuous progress.  the old two steps forward, one step back kind of thing.  but it has helped me take control of my own self separate from my past, not just in my head (which is the easy part as far as i am concerned) but in my heart, in my emotions.

anyway, so the past is always with us but the emotions and behaviors from the past need not be.  just my idle thoughts.

peace and joy to all of you.
i'm still working on it!!   :P :) 
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: jnov on September 09, 2007, 12:45:21 AM
In general having been abused seems to have ruined the ability to be angry.  I am almost envious of people that can be angry & get it out of their system & find the idea of anger management courses in the traditional sense to be quite absurd.  Any anger aroused in me is always turned inwards.

this is a bit of a late reaction to this,but i hadn`t been here in a while(bit of a time out),sorry!

oh wow,i so recognize this,but i`ve never asked myself if that was cause of the abuse,i always thought it was just part of me and part of the way i grew up with a dominating mom. But indeed i almost never get angry,oh i do but i dont express it,most of the time it stayes inside of me.i hate fighting, wheater its for physical or with words, and i still can`t handle it,i shut down or i walk away.
just recently i started sort of therapy to work on this

this got posted as i was writing my own post above.  but this rings so true for me as well i wanted to respond as well. 

and with all i say above anger is still the one emotion i can't get a handle on.  although it sounds contradictory to what i say above.

i have deep, deep anger that i am terrified of and will not deal with.  i know it is there.  i know i should be dealing with it but i just can't go there because i am terrified that if i really go into my anger, if i really start to tap into it, then i will never be able to come back out of it and regain control over myself without a lot of destruction.  which is probably completely overblowing my own power and importance!!

i do get anger and yell and rant but it is always about something else or at someone else, not the deep anger that the abuse put in me.

as a woman especially i think we have been taught to not be angry so we get depressed instead (which of course is anger turned inward).  so i get depressed and sleep a lot instead of dealing with the lava inside.

so as much as i try to be oh-so-wise, it only goes so far! (http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s36/somh/icons/shrugs.gif)
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Brokeback_1 on September 09, 2007, 01:38:10 AM
Marc, love ya dude!

http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=22865.msg998560#msg998560

Huntingbuddy posted that in the SF thread---I was stunned. I keep thinking it was 30 or so years ago I got molested so badly and no it wasn't, it was the summer of  1967!!!

40 freakin years ago!! And this has been the most stressed out summer since that one. Radiation poisoning, Katrina sick, the house a shambles....

Anniversary's suck

But...............

Anniversaries also require acceptance, Jack.  Something I have learned.  One must deal with or die.  I chose to live. So have you, my friend, so have you.
Oh, I accept it allright---I'm just astonished that it's 40 years. I keep saying 30 or so. And when I realised consciously tonight that it was the 40th anniversary of The Summer Of Love and 40 years since it happened I was blown away. The juxtaposition of THAT with all the things which Katrina and I have been through since we got married shook me up, we have yet to even begin to have a "normal" married life; it's been one thing after another continuously, and I mean that. We know people, gay and straight, who have been together for 30-40 50 years who can't believe everything which has gone on  with us. The timing is really eerey.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: CellarDweller115 on September 09, 2007, 01:30:02 PM
we never can escape our past.  the emotional memories are there forever i think.  and so are the instinctual emotional responses.  so often it takes conscious decision-making on our part to try a new emotional response.  and then conscious control over how we behave to break old patterns.

jnov, you are so right on this.  There are certain habits that I have that I still have due to some of the stuff I went through.

I'm also working on it.

It's funny that this thread got active within the past few days.  On Friday, I got in the mail an invite to my 20th high school reunion.

I swore I would never get physically close to those people again.  Now....I'm debating going.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: jnov on September 09, 2007, 07:39:35 PM
i went to my 8th grade reunion a while back (like 10 years a while back).  there was a teacher i had in 7th grade whom i hated because of some stuff she did.  i mentioned to a few of my classmates (none of which by the way had i seen since high school) that i hoped she wasn't there and they kind of looked at me weird, sort of like: get over it.

so i went, ran into her, she had no clue as to who i was.  didn't remember me at all.  and it occurred to me how silly it was for me to have held on to this dislike for her all these years.

now granted what she did to me was simple stuff.  i mean she humiliated me in front of the class a couple of times but no real "abuse."  (of course by 8th grade i had already been through several years of sexual abuse and so had the confidence level of a slug but she didn't know that.)

anyway, the point is: i let it go, realizing how silly it was of me to be hanging onto to something that was over. 

(letting go of the emotions towards various family members has been a little harder to let go but i am working on it.)
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Brokeback_1 on October 12, 2007, 05:40:49 AM
I have never  gone to any of my High School reunions. Not even once. I considered sending back a note saying I had died when they sent me a reunion notice a few years ago.

I have brought my mother to one or 2 of the school's annual parents association 'card parties' in recent years. About 25 years ago I went to see my youngest brother get a track and field award and   ran into the gym teacher in the bathroom, who greeted me. I said I was there ONLY to support my brother and would not otherwise have shown up. I think I told him I'd hated the very sight of that school and he curtly said nice to see you again and walked.

I hated high school when I was there. I couldn't stand the place after i graduated.  I hate the very memory of high school to this day.

I had a miserable miserable time. There is nobody I have any desire to see. I could not care less if their teams won lost or dropped dead on the playing field. I have no desire to be put under observation by people i couldn't stand at any sort of dumbassed reunion. there is no reason to go back. there is no desire to go back. The few occasions i have set foot in that building since graduation I remember tensing up, feeling nervous, and hoping i would not meet anyone who remembered me, or anyone I remembered.

Got the picture???

I hated that f'ing school to the point where I barely remember a single classmates name.

Ok, it was a long time ago. My adolescence was exceptionally screwy and painfull. Every move I made was wrong in that schoolthere, every word i uttered was wrong in that school. I made every mistake in the book and a few which were unique. Like I said it was a long time ago but I would rather--and have--face and face down the guys who molested me then go back to that shithole. I can't say I give a damned if I never see it again.

Which means that at some date in the next year or so, if possible,  i will make a point of trying to attend one of their reunion class functions.

Probably to see if they are still assholes.

i tend to think they are.

Even now.

Even my youngest brother, who was a track star and well liked in that boy's hs--it's coed today-- thinks it's a waste of time to attend those damned drunken reunions. .
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Nax on October 12, 2007, 05:54:24 AM
Jack you have the upper hand - you have the strength to go back and look them in the eye.  I say this quite deliberately - Enjoy the Reunion ;)
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Brokeback_1 on October 12, 2007, 05:59:57 AM
Thanks, nax!

Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: jnov on October 12, 2007, 09:34:36 AM
so jack, tell us how you feel about high school reunions.

 ;D :-*
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Brokeback_1 on October 12, 2007, 09:41:11 AM
They rot bigtime.

lol
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Amiennis on October 12, 2007, 09:44:43 AM
They rot bigtime.

lol

I would agree with you 100%  ;D - evade them like the plague.
I never have seen the use in them.

If I had wanted to see those people, I would have stayed in touch with them.
Quod non - and for a reason.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: jnov on October 12, 2007, 10:25:15 AM
They rot bigtime.

lol

 :D :D :D :D

i agree.  never been to one myself.  (high school that is.  did go to my 8th grade.  8th grade.  how silly is that!)
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Brokeback_1 on October 12, 2007, 11:07:12 AM
My youngest brother actually went to his 8th grade reunion, jnov. Some of his classmates decided to have it and hunted people down, which they knew how to do as many are still in the area and being seniour police detectives these days, they know how to FIND people!

Which was fine for my brother as he is still friends with and knows a number of the boys he attended Grammar School with. that group stayed together.

We consider him The Normal One ROFLMAO.

Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Amiennis on October 12, 2007, 11:13:40 AM
My youngest brother actually went to his 8th grade reunion, jnov. Some of his classmates decided to have it and hunted people down, which they knew how to do as many are still in the area and being seniour police detectives these days, they know how to FIND people!

I changed my name and my address and telephone number are not registered ;D.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: gres on October 12, 2007, 11:26:32 AM
I happily moved out off that town and never got back again and i never will even though my parents own a house there... i happily have ignored that place which goes with those people i don't want to see again. My only one fav teacher had said to my mother that this kid, me is too mature to be able to communicate with the rest of the kids. I was quite lonely those years cus i  had none at my age to talk to and everything you do at this age.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: michaelflanagansf on October 12, 2007, 11:45:21 AM
I hated high school when I was there. I couldn't stand the place after i graduated.  I hate the very memory of high school to this day.

{snip}

Even my youngest brother, who was a track star and well liked in that boy's hs--it's coed today-- thinks it's a waste of time to attend those damned drunken reunions. .

Well this year my reunions were at the same time as the BBM get together in San Fran.  So that was a no brainer.

Oddly enough Jack I went to one of my reunions (5 years back) and had a good time.  I too hated high school.  I generally fought my way through it, verbally and physically.  They tagged me as a fag when I was about 14 and I had male classmates bugging me for years.  But I also was one of the few people back there who challenged things.  I was the first male cheerleader (because I didn't believe in gender roles).  I started an underground newspaper and I went to the school board to challenge the dress codes.

I was a bit surprised at how much the people back there seemed to have a good opinion of me.  They didn't want to talk about AIDS at all - when I brought up the bad times in SF in the 80s they changed the topic very quickly.

My favorite part was where one of the gals from my class compared tattoos with me.  ;) :D
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: michaelflanagansf on October 12, 2007, 12:00:11 PM
Okay...another surviving abuse post - this one a bit different.

This one relates to my family and how and why I relate to men the way I do.

I come from a large family (9 children).  One of my relatives has a very different temperament from me.  He's very traditionally male - very reserved.  Except for one thing - he tends to have extreme anger outbursts.

When I was growing up I can remember him watching sports programs and bursting into angry outbursts - screaming at the television and throwing things when his team lost.  It got to be such a weird and painful thing that whenever he would start watching or listening to a sports event I would get as far away from him as possible.  I remember he was sitting at a table (a very nice drop leaf cherry table) with food watching t.v.  When his team started losing he hit the table so hard that he broke the top of it - split the wood in half.

He would also get very angry and frustrated when something he was working on didn't turn out the way he liked.  He hit his typewriter often when working on papers - so hard that it would put dents in the metal case.

I'm not the only one who noticed this, of course.  We've wondered where this anger comes from - and why it is there.

Regardless, I know that there have been at least two effects on me.  One is that I have a true revulsion relating to sports.  I had a hard time getting into physical fitness and only started going to a gym in my 30s.  The second is that I have a hard time getting to know men who are traditionally reserved - so quiet or 'strong silent types' are tough for me.  I just am always ready for them to blow their tops at any moment. 

This has changed for me over time - therapy helped.  And I also have to say that being here (and at the gatherings) has helped too.  I've gotten to know a lot of reserved men who are very nice and not violent or angry.

But I still wonder what I have missed because of this.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: fritzkep on October 12, 2007, 12:11:43 PM
I enjoyed high school pretty much, and loved college. I am in contact with many of my former classmates, and have been to every college reunion and most of the high school ones. Just to let y'all know it is possible!

Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Rob in Puyallup on October 12, 2007, 08:41:31 PM
Michael,

I had years of experience with a former "roomate" similar to yours with your relative. For years I would try to ignore his unexpected mood swings, very happy one moment and then a few moments later angry as "all get out" for no obvious reason, yelling and throwing things. Makes a man meek, being in a situation such as that.

Came a time in that relationship where I started reacting to these swings, which led to big arguements.

After nine years he moved out, thank god. I did "love" him at one time, like you would anyone in your home, but I can honestly say that I never liked him.

Hugs, bud.
Boo
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: michaelflanagansf on October 12, 2007, 10:08:24 PM
Came a time in that relationship where I started reacting to these swings, which led to big arguements.

Thanks Rob - one of the big differences between having a family member and a relationship like you're discussing is that it is easier to move away from family.  I feel for you friend - I think it may have been harder for you.  But yes - I did start to react after I moved away from home.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: desertrat on October 13, 2007, 02:57:00 AM
i can relate to both of you, rob and michael - when i was a kid i was "blessed" with a rather choleric father and uncle (brothers). my dad changed when we got older, but i still remember that it was so easy to get him angry and i hated that. i'm a lot like my mum - i have a rather quiet voice and i get angry rarely. though my dad was never violent, his loud voice and his unexpected flare-ups were something i really feared. my uncle is still that way, a reason why my whole family is not exactly looking forward to family reunions.  :-\
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Rob in Puyallup on October 13, 2007, 08:35:58 AM
Thanks Michael and Martina...

As with you, Martina, I tend to be quiet and very rarely angry. Part of that I attribute to the way I grew up, my sister easy to agitate, me calm thinking Mom had more than enough to deal with.

I tend to cringe, having no way of defence when it comes to dealing with confrontational types. My mind freezes. Weak spine? I don't know.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: jnov on October 13, 2007, 09:18:27 AM
the spine has nothing to do with it.  nor is it a weakness of any kind to not enjoy violence, even in its most passive forms.

i grew up in a family of four boys (two sisters) and i can remember my dad saying that he yelled at us on purpose because "it is a man's worked out there and we had better get used to being yelled at."  he was 6'3".  of course he would have denied that if i had called him on it.  (he's dead now.)

but my oldest brother especially was exactly the same way.  screaming at sports games on TV, yelling at you if he wasn't getting his way, basically being a bully.  i learned how to not get emotional if a man yells at me.  one of my brothers will still try it from time to time.  not really yelling at me but if we are discussing something and i am disagreeing with him, he will try to talk over me, raising his voice, etc. to "win" the argument.  i don't let him get away with it.  i suppose my dad's "lesson" worked.  but only because of all the counseling i have received over the years, not because he yelled at me.  or maybe so.

just this past summer, one of my brothers said he thought there should be a national "verbal violence day" when you get to yell at anyone you want for no reason at all.  and all i could think was: how hypocritical of him.  this is the same man who taped together pages of fairytales so that his daughter would never be read the "scary" parts.  seriously!  and now he wants to be able to scream at people who bug him.  yet who would get the most upset if someone behaved that way toward either of his kids?!

i abhor violence, in all its forms.  i do not run away from confrontation.  i am more than able to go nose to nose with someone who is trying to bully me.  but i hate it.

someone who can be nonviolent in the face of ugliness is a very courageous person. 

Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Rob in Puyallup on October 13, 2007, 09:25:26 AM
(((((((jnov)))))))

Thank you.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: jnov on October 13, 2007, 11:53:21 PM
rob -  :)
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Brokeback_1 on October 14, 2007, 06:25:08 AM
 :-*

to all of you


I don't think i was ever afraid of my father. Not AFRAID afraid. Sure like any son anywhere,  there were some 'uh-oh' moments. But afraid as a way of looking at him, as a way of growing up> blessedly never. I didn't like him as a teenager --but that was me and not him. I was a handfull, and baffling to the man. i think at some point he sort of gave up and gave me my space, thinking we will deal with this when he can deal with it [me] when he is older.  I knew I could always depend upon my father. The tragedy is that he died before we could, in the normal evolution of 'things', have an adult relationship. If I think that what must my brothers feel? the 2 youngest were 10 and 11 when he died. the youngest has a 6 year old boy. The entire family can see and understand why he is so attentive and such a good father, but his own son may never get it because he simply wasn't THERE. My brother deals with his boy as if 'daddy' dould die tomorrow, and packs in as much as possible of HIMSELF. That 6 year old is closer to my brother then virtually ALL of his 6 year old friends are to their fathers...

All in all, as i grow older i respect and understand my father more every day. Now that I AM a father...well, a few days ago something went on and I thought [literally] OMG, I finally understand. I finally understand my father.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: jnov on October 14, 2007, 10:36:38 AM
the cycle of life.  interesting how it happens.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: michaelflanagansf on October 14, 2007, 03:37:58 PM
i abhor violence, in all its forms.  i do not run away from confrontation.  i am more than able to go nose to nose with someone who is trying to bully me.  but i hate it.

someone who can be nonviolent in the face of ugliness is a very courageous person. 

It came with time for me, jnov.  Since my early family experiences I've talked about I've faced a lot of violence on the streets - kids throwing rock and bottles at me, someone driving a motorcycle at me and yelling 'fag' as he drove by - lots of incidents like that.

The last time it happened I was on the underground here in San Francisco.  I very calmly closed the book I was reading and left the subway car I was in - away from the person who was trying to provoke an encounter and attack me.  It was very odd - but I realized that the person wasn't playing with a full deck and that anything I said to them would just cause the situation to escalate.

Oddly enough I read shortly after that (in 'Blink') that police departments put recruits through stress training so that they can make decisions calmly while under pressure.  Some of us got that training without going through the academy, I think.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Brokeback_1 on October 14, 2007, 04:46:28 PM
I sometimes think that is why New Yorkers generally have such aplomb Michael: they are packed into a relatively tiny area, and while it is a remarkable safe city at 4 and 5 in the morning, as well as 1 and 2 in the afternoon [you can pretty much walk anywhere --aside from certain specific places!--there is the Subway. Yes it is safe. It is also, traditionally, a place where you find all sorts of nuts.

You learn what you described FAST LOL

And after a nut leaves everyone cracks up.

And 8th Street down in Greenwich Village! I remember being accosted by King Louis of France at 3AM; Billy and I got hysterical. It cemented the friendship. We still talk about the King of France. A few months later we met him in Times Square, looking to foment a counter-revolution and get his throne back. he was at the USA recruiting Center asking for Military Aid. The sargeant in charge actually sat down with him and discussed D-Day, wanted to know who would pay for the invasion.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: CellarDweller115 on October 15, 2007, 05:10:00 PM
Well, after some thought, I decided not to go to the reunion.

those people gave me nothing but grief, and don't have anything to do with the person I've become.  I will spend that night with my friends.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Brokeback_1 on October 15, 2007, 07:48:49 PM
You have to do what feels right for you. Would you want to re-establish and relationships in that bunch? If not, why bother.

When I go, whenever that may be,  it will be for one reason only>>>to simply go.

I'm pretty freaked out right now. I found out what an ex-friend, someone I was quite close with,  has been up to. Completely nauseating. No, wrong description:. Quite completely disgusting says it better... Defining the term pig as a matter of fact.

There was so much promise in that guy and it's all down the drain, I really could not quite believe he had not just continued but built upon his gross behaviour. Built upon it to the point where we discuss things like it in HERE.

Last night had a chat with someone who years ago dumped all over me about this guy and finally saw what was underneath that charming  exteriour. She actually told him 'Jack was right in everything he said about you.'

Which he did not like. At all. He apparently never got over hearing the truth.

Damn! it only took 8 years....and what do I feel?

Sad.

This one is going to end up doing 20 to life.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: jnov on October 16, 2007, 02:37:35 AM
at least he is finally in a place were he can not harm innocent people.

i had a conversation last night with a friend.  i have been thinking about it all day.  it was very disturbing to me, although i tried very hard to stay unemotional during the conversation itself.  but i would like your opinions on it if you don't mind.

we were talking about being raised catholic (me) and he mentioned all the pedophile scandals in the church.  but he did not go in the direction i thought he would.

he said people are making too much of it.  that the act itself is not wrong.  that the act itself is not necessarily traumatic and if everyone would basically leave well enough alone, it wouldn't be traumatic for the kids.  it is the uproar that is made after the fact that causes the trauma.  and those kids who have been in that situation should just get over it.  also, that sex at an early age is a cultural norm, not an inherent human norm.  people used to get married and have children at a much earlier age than we generally do now.

i asked him to put himself in the place of a father finding out that a parish priest was sexually intimate with his son, what would he think.  first he acknowledged that he does not have any kids so he might react differently if he did, but he thinks he would not make a big deal out of it, maybe he would talk to the priest to ask him to stop but he would not "make a big deal out of it."  he also said that if the kid "wanted to continue what could i do about it?"

i don't want to state here how i responded because i would really like to get some opinions first.

and let me say that i respect this person.  also he told me that he knew a man to whom such a thing happened and the whole town came to know about it and it was that public humiliation that traumatized the man, not the sexual actions themselves.

i am trying to make sure i am not misrepresenting what he said.  i think i have gotten it right.

what do you all think?


Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Amiennis on October 16, 2007, 02:41:00 AM
Well, after some thought, I decided not to go to the reunion.

those people gave me nothing but grief, and don't have anything to do with the person I've become.  I will spend that night with my friends.

Good for you, (((Chuck)))
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Brokeback_1 on October 16, 2007, 03:26:01 AM
Nope, he isn't in jail, but the general consensus is he will eventually end up there. AFTER causing a lot of pain and misery. Physical and mental pain and misery.

I was completely freaked out by what was described. A real sense of deja vu. How he got away with such things as a teenager is miraculous. How what amounts to a 30-something Republican sadist gets away with this stuff in the NYC of today is amazing. How he and his buddy got away with this crap in the European Union is even more amazing. The story was recieved from  a Londoner, herself no prize but at least not a sexual sicko. It went on  in London and Amsterdam. Apparently he managed to not just anger and disgust but SHOCK the Dutch.

That says a lot right there.

And yet--as she said--'I do not understand it, no matter what, they come up smelling like roses.'
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Amiennis on October 16, 2007, 03:29:45 AM
Apparently he managed to not just anger and disgust but SHOCK the Dutch.

That says a lot right there.
NOW I'm becoming curious as to what he actually did ::)... hmmm, or am I :-\?
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: desertrat on October 16, 2007, 03:51:19 AM
at least he is finally in a place were he can not harm innocent people.

i had a conversation last night with a friend.  i have been thinking about it all day.  it was very disturbing to me, although i tried very hard to stay unemotional during the conversation itself.  but i would like your opinions on it if you don't mind.

we were talking about being raised catholic (me) and he mentioned all the pedophile scandals in the church.  but he did not go in the direction i thought he would.

he said people are making too much of it.  that the act itself is not wrong.  that the act itself is not necessarily traumatic and if everyone would basically leave well enough alone, it wouldn't be traumatic for the kids.  it is the uproar that is made after the fact that causes the trauma.  and those kids who have been in that situation should just get over it.  also, that sex at an early age is a cultural norm, not an inherent human norm.  people used to get married and have children at a much earlier age than we generally do now.

i asked him to put himself in the place of a father finding out that a parish priest was sexually intimate with his son, what would he think.  first he acknowledged that he does not have any kids so he might react differently if he did, but he thinks he would not make a big deal out of it, maybe he would talk to the priest to ask him to stop but he would not "make a big deal out of it."  he also said that if the kid "wanted to continue what could i do about it?"

i don't want to state here how i responded because i would really like to get some opinions first.

and let me say that i respect this person.  also he told me that he knew a man to whom such a thing happened and the whole town came to know about it and it was that public humiliation that traumatized the man, not the sexual actions themselves.

i am trying to make sure i am not misrepresenting what he said.  i think i have gotten it right.

what do you all think?




jnov, and you actually left his head where it was ? i would have ripped it off.  :-\ >:D

i remember the uproar we once had in my family : my dad's secretary was known for being rather...uhm, open-hearted in her dressing and such. she liked revealing it all - ultra-short miniskirts, boobs almost hanging out and such. my dad dealt with it by mostly making fun of her - well, she wasn't too bright either so i guess she took it as flirting. so, everybody was happy.  ::) one day, my dad came home from work, telling my mum about "today's outfit", saying that the skirt was so short that you could almost see her underwear, and then adding that it would be no wonder if some guy would pick her up and rape her, since she dressed like a whore.

well, BAD thing. the next hour, my mum and i were lecturing my dad on how a woman could even walk around NAKED and still, every man had to respect her NO. 

rape is rape, no matter the circumstances. and if children are involved - even worse.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Brokeback_1 on October 16, 2007, 04:08:40 AM

I had a conversation last night with a friend.  i have been thinking about it all day.  it was very disturbing to me, although i tried very hard to stay unemotional during the conversation itself.  but i would like your opinions on it if you don't mind.
<BIG SNIP>

i am trying to make sure i am not misrepresenting what he said.  i think i have gotten it right.

what do you all think?


I can only think your friend was saying sex itself is not wrong. Which is true.

I'm being charitable  with that.

If what you wrote accurately describes the tone and tenor of the conversation, which, knowing you as we do, it does--[ look at how reluctant I am to say this guy can't possibly believe this crap. jnov it is just too bizarre, but after what i was told the other day.....!!]

So, being uncharitable and all, in plain  unvarnished English I think your friend is fucking deranged. The sexual use of children destroys them. Recently there was a news story on the  tv news and I overheard my mother speaking with her friend about it as they watched.

 She said 'those people'--in other words she was referring to sexual rapists of children, because that is what they damned well ARE and why not SAY what they are-- well, she said 'Those people deserve the worse. Execution is too easy.'

Her friend,a lady a few years older then her whom I've known since I was born, a woman who grew up with my mother, nodded quietly in agreement.

My mother continued, saying:

'Clara, death is too merciful for those people. It's too easy for them. They should be made to suffer. THE CHILDREN THEY VICTIMISE ARE RUINED. THEY DESTROYED THOSE CHILDREN INSIDE AND RUINED THEIR LIVES. THEY STOLE WHO THOSE CHILDREN WERE, THEIR LIVES ARE RUINED'
She would never have said that if she thought I could hear it, but I did hear it...

And my heart went out to her not as my own personal mother but as a woman who had been put through hell when her oldest son, so protected, so watched over, so cherished, had been RUINED by complete strangers who used him for their own thoughtless enjoyment. When she found out, she damned near had a nervous breakdown.

Look at all of us>>> we were in ruins.
We were damaged so badly a lot of us never thought we could or would get over it.

Our identities, sense of self, our human dignity was trampled on with callous brutality. Some of 'those people'  consciously intended to turn us into literal shit BECAUSE THEY WANTED TO. Because they thought they COULD. So they did.

Some of us were treated and used with vicious violence, some were used with trickery, some were used with sweet words.

It doesn't matter, it seriously does not matter.

That we have done so well is due to one thing, the resilience of children and the strength,  for those of us who were older, of the HUMAN spirit.
Each one of us managed to keep one small part of ourselves intact, one small part containing a fragment of Who We Really Were.
We took that fragment, that sense of inviolate self,  and rebuilt our minds.

It caused havoc with us as adults.
It caused havoc with many of our families.
It took most of us years.
Yet we eventually found ourselves. Some of us are still finding themselves.

For your friend to say what he said offends me on a very deep level, jnov. What you must have felt while you listened to him babble this crap makes me cringe inside.

It's as if he was trying to convince himself it was nothing because he has either inflicted something on someone  or experienced such abuse himself.

Regardless, what he said is incredible.
It is offensive to me personally, offensive to me as someone who was victimised when he couldn't do anything about it.
It is offensive to me as an adult male.
It is offensive to me as a friend, who can't believe such crap was inflicted on YOU as a woman and human being.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Nax on October 16, 2007, 06:44:47 AM
Courage and strength to you my friend.


snip.

Look at all of us>>> we were in ruins.
We were damaged so badly a lot of us never thought we could or would get over it.


But we can and we have - or at least the lucky ones have.  There is a need to help others and educate society.

Quote

snip.

We took that fragment, that sense of inviolate self,  and rebuilt our minds.


Because no one can totally destroy us. Although it's hard we sometimes have to walk away from the past - it can't be changed, you can only influence the future. What's done is done, good or bad, we have to find the strength to move on to a new chapter in life - turning that page is the hardest thing.

Quote

snip.

It caused havoc with us as adults.
It caused havoc with many of our families.
It took most of us years.
Yet we eventually found ourselves. Some of us are still finding themselves.


All of us are "still finding ourselves" every day is a new discovery, treasure the good things and discard the rest.

I'm not trying to be glib or patronsing here, just honest - I'm not comfortable in this thread but I think you need a virtual hug there Jack.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Amiennis on October 16, 2007, 07:12:05 AM
jnov, I will not mince words: I feel like throwing up when I read about comments like your friend's.
He obviously doesn't have a clue what he has talking about - or he does and tries to deny it this way, like Jack suggested; maybe even worse - and should therefore keep his mouth SHUT about such extremely delicate matters.

That is all I have to say, a 45-year old male who has to struggle on a daily basis with the severe effects of the traumatisation that years of sexual, physical and emotional abuse by his own [...] brought about.

BARF.



And Jack, please give my love to your mum.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Rob in Puyallup on October 16, 2007, 09:09:23 AM
jnov,

As a "survivor" of sexual abuse which took place when I was about 4, I can honestly say that your "friend" has it all wrong.

What the perpetrator did to me may not have been physically traumatic, but emotionally it set my life up in hell. Didn't help my sister and me that our parents didn't believe us and allowed the man to continue living in our house.

One of many childhood traumas that set me up for struggle. Over the last several years I've faced many of these memories, cried my eyes out. Alone. For the time being they are once again on the shelves of my mind, quiet, where they belong.

Rob
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Brokeback_1 on October 16, 2007, 08:55:25 PM
Nax, thanks--hugs are always welcome! 

I have to say this>>>IMO jnov needs a hug even more. Can you imagine her sitting there calmly, trying to make sense of that crap, trying to be fair to the man and desperately trying to figure out the why of it????

 I think jnov is a remarkable woman and her friend needs a nice big slap, at the very least. I was incredulous at anyone saying this in a 21st century setting, whether in Singapore, London, or Chugwater, Wyoming.

In Chugwater, Wyoming--population 244-- any adult male who said that would be avoided by his neighbors. People would want to know WHY he had said that and keep their kids away from him.
--------------------------------------------------------------

marc/AmIEnnis

thanks, my mother is a pretty remarkable person. My wife gets on with her better then she does with her own mother.

-------------------------------------------------------------

desertrat:

too bad YOU weren't sitting in a chair next to jnov, you'd have been pleasant but that guy would be singing soprano

I can't believe he told her those things.

-------------------------------------------------------------

rob--

many big hugs dude!
'

[ and sometime you have to post a picture of puyallup..]
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: jnov on October 17, 2007, 12:29:43 AM
you guys are all great.  thanks so much for the validation that i was not crazy!!!!

but it occurred to me last night, as i was still going over the conversation in my head, how indicative my response was to my history. meaning, instead of immediately telling the guy in no uncertain terms that he was WRONG, i suppressed my own emotions and thought:
"he must be right.  and of course i have over-reacted to the whole thing and how silly of me to make such a big deal out of it."

and i thought no matter how much therapy i have been through, no matter how "far" i have come, my first instinct is still to assume i am wrong and the other person is right.  and THAT thought made me sad and tired.

but, now having heard your thoughts, i will say that i did eventually tell this guy that i had been sexually abused as a child (he questioned my use of the word "abused," asked if i really felt it was the right word) and that yes, sex between two adults or even sex between two children just "playing doctor," i.e. innocently exploring is not wrong, but sex between an adult and a child is always wrong and no child can "consent" to such sex.  i think in the end he at least had another perspective to think about.

and i have to say, this is a friend.  this is a person i like and respect.  and we continued to have a very nice evening of good conversation.  but that part of the evening floored me!

thanks again everyone!!  big hugs back to you all.  (http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s36/somh/icons/grouphug.gif)
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: michaelflanagansf on October 17, 2007, 02:07:12 AM
Hey jnov, just wanted to comment about your friend.  I understand what he means about society having changed - it's true that people used to get married earlier.  They also died when they were in their 40s.  And some kids were abandoned by their parents and sent west on orphan trains.  It doesn't mean it was good or right.  I wonder what your friend feels about slavery and wife abuse - those were practiced during this period too.

Regardless the abuse of children by adults isn't 'values neutral' and it's hard to believe that anyone thinks someone who hasn't had life experience (or economic status) can actually consent to this sort of thing.  It's also hard to believe that anyone can think that someone who is in the position of a spiritual authority or confessor could do something like this to a child without the child having severely conflicted feelings about what is right and wrong and if they can say no to such a person.

I think your friend needs to realize that the reason attitudes have changed a lot about child sexual abuse is that many of us who have experienced it have stood up and said it was wrong and bad and that it is damaging.  We were able to do this because attitudes toward abuse generally have changed - it's no longer considered a 'private' thing - it's a criminal act that we all should be concerned about.  Many of us wish that there had been people who were concerned when we were children.

Recently we read a book over in the book club about prison rape.  One of the things the author T.J. Parsell said about this in a New York Times article is "I accept full responsibility for the choices I made, but no one deserves to be raped."  Much like this no child deserves to be sexually abused and no child can consent to being sexually abused.  For me that's the bottom line.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: desertrat on October 17, 2007, 02:59:38 AM
-------------------------------------------------------------

desertrat:

too bad YOU weren't sitting in a chair next to jnov, you'd have been pleasant but that guy would be singing soprano



bwahahahaha...jack, you know me SO well !  ;D ;D


jnov, i really hope your friend will be able to understand one day what pain you are going through. as a friend, he should be able to see how much of your life quality your childhood trauma took away from you. don't lose hope - talk to him !  :)
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: ybwc on January 21, 2008, 08:14:38 PM
jnov... when I hear about the historical sexual/physical abuse cases almost on a daily basis I still feel the shame. I also feel anger and frustration because my perpetrators have gotten away with it.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: jnov on January 22, 2008, 07:33:09 AM
thanks for the support ybwc.

i am still friends with the person, and i am hoping that slowly, through our friendship, he will come to see things a little differently.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Amiennis on January 23, 2008, 11:34:36 AM
My dearest, darling Jackie, I am so thankful that you are without pain now, and in peace.

Thank you for everything.
I will always love you.

Your
Marc
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Amiennis on January 23, 2008, 11:37:23 AM
After W.H. Auden's Funeral Blues

Stop all the clocks, cut off the telephone,
Prevent the dog from barking with a juicy bone,
Silence the pianos and with muffled drum
Bring out the coffin, let the mourners come.

Let aeroplanes circle moaning overhead
Scribbling on the sky the message She is Dead.
Put crepe bows round the white necks of the public doves,
Let the traffic policemen wear black cotton gloves.

She was my North, my South, my East and West,
My working week and my Sunday rest,
My noon, my midnight, my talk, my song;
I thought that love would last forever: I was wrong.

The stars are not wanted now; put out every one,
Pack up the moon and dismantle the sun,
Pour away the ocean and sweep up the woods;
For nothing now can ever come to any good.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Amiennis on April 17, 2008, 04:48:15 PM
I wonder how everyone is doing now, three months after I did my last posting...
Over here, life remains a struggle. The hardest thing is not to give in to the tendency towards self-destruction - it takes so much of my energy, still...

BTW, I wonder why this is an open thread; I, for one, would feel much safer if it were closed to outsiders, non Brokies. I assume I ought to address the moderator about that.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: jnov on April 17, 2008, 10:08:04 PM
this is one of those threads that, although it often goes silent for stretches at a time, makes me feel better just knowing it is here and available should i need it.
so far i have been doing okay so i have been silent.
i hope you all have been doing okay too.

beth




Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Amiennis on April 18, 2008, 04:48:45 AM
Glad to hear that you're OK, Beth.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: mcnell1120 on April 18, 2008, 08:56:10 AM
I wonder how everyone is doing now, three months after I did my last posting...
Over here, life remains a struggle. The hardest thing is not to give in to the tendency towards self-destruction - it takes so much of my energy, still...

BTW, I wonder why this is an open thread; I, for one, would feel much safer if it were closed to outsiders, non Brokies. I assume I ought to address the moderator about that.

For privacy issues...yeah,I guess people will feel like they can talk easily w/o the fear of a specific individual who may read this....or fear of anything we say in here will bite us on the ass..

Marc...I'm wondering the same things at times,I haven't visited certain threads in months and months...I had decided long ago when we opened this thread that I would never come in here and talk about certain things in my life....we started in the Affected Me thread,but now....well, I don't know...I feel too open to the world I guess

But since yesterday,I had a conversation with a good friend from this Forum..we talked on the phone,talked about certain things in our lives....and I slipped and mentioned the "S" word......yeah..."suicide"......about at one point in my life, I wanted to....but he ignored it listened and I was glad,no questions asked...we continued to other topics

Now I can't stop thinking about it....about how at one point I wanted to end my life...this self destruction and just not caring of the effects that would occur to my family,especially my parents....it started in my teens and as recently as a few months ago when my husband and I were in a rough situation...all because of me and my Brokeback obsession...all because of the awakenings that happened because of this movie....I was confused and he was angry....he thought I was a closet gay and I wasn't...he thought I wanted to be single again and I didn't...he even thought I was in love with a certain member in here,and I'm not....it was bad...really bad..and I struggled for a few weeks...I would call Jackie and in tears we would talk it out..she even told me she would talk to my husband if I wanted to...I said "NO WAY IN HELL"...I was too afraid....she didn't know what to do with me....

This one member from this Forum that I talked to yesterday would give me a hard time,trying to wake me up,shake my stuff and start to realize that I needed to move on,but he had no clue that I was "this" close to getting in my car and running into a brick wall or a tree at 90 miles an hour....just like a friend did...even though I have small children and a family that loves me,I wasn't thinking about that....the hurt takes over your thoughts....your logics

you have no idea how Jackie saved my life ...it was our secret...and I wonder if maybe she slipped and told anyone...I wonder how many of you knew just how fucked up I was

But I'm a survivor.....after all the crap happened,my hubby and I have gotten to talking...we became closer,opened up some...we still have a little ways to go...I never ONCE told him what I wanted to do....don't think it's important now....it's so different right now..I hope it continues to stay this way and that our love will grow stronger....

I'm a new person now....even 6 months ago,I see a change in me...I'm not afraid to venture off and try new things...I speak my mind more now...I'm confident.......but I will be honest ....at times you feel like you're sinking down...just a tiny bit,especially when you start thinking about "things"....someone you miss....your past...anything....just pick yourself up...play some good music,watch a good movie...call a friend...and talk

I don't have that friend anymore....no one here at home understands me the way Jackie did...but I must move on...I HAVE to.....so that is why I called two other buddies of mine...I needed to hear a familiar voice...someone I knew understood me and knew me from 2 years ago....who knew some of my secrets I never shared with anyone else outside this "circle" of friends....I'm okay now....I don't feel like I need professional help...I just need reassurance..I need friends like yourselves...

Thank you for listening...

Nellie
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: jnov on April 18, 2008, 10:00:07 AM
when i was a freshman in college i would walk back to my dorm every day after class saying out loud to myself:
i don't want to be dead, i just don't want to be this unhappy.

it was my mantra.  and then sometimes i would sit on my bed in my dorm room, thinking "don't move.  do not move."  cause if i moved i might do something harmful to myself.  so i would not move until the feeling passed.

junior year i lived with people i didn't really know or like.  so i switched my days and nights around, staying up all night and sleeping all day.  i almost flunked out.  i would call Dial A Prayer at midnight just to hear someone talking to me.

yet i had "close" friends upstairs, friends i met freshman year and we were a very close group.  they had no idea.

i used to think people who committed suicide did it because they were numb inside.  after that i realized it was, at least in my situation, not numbness but pain.  a sharp pain inside and a lot of blackness.

after college i finally got myself into counseling and that has given me back my life.  of course, it took years and cycles of going and then not and then going again.

i still have to watch myself, watching for signs of depression.  i've gotten really good at knowing what my personal signs are.

and i also have loving family around.  and good friends.  that helps.  but sometimes .....

nellie,
we know.  we are here.  whenever you need to express whatever is going on inside of you.

beth




Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Rob in Puyallup on April 18, 2008, 10:11:10 AM
Beth...

Real big hugs babe, many of us here have been in that same place. We know that sort of pain... We've all survived it, just as you have...

 :-* :-* :-*
Rob
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: mcnell1120 on April 18, 2008, 10:21:28 AM

<snip>

i used to think people who committed suicide did it because they were numb inside.  after that i realized it was, at least in my situation, not numbness but pain.  a sharp pain inside and a lot of blackness.
beth


Beth....wow!

I'm so glad you posted..thank you!

I used to think people who killed themselves were losers...just plain ole fuck-ups....people who needed to be heavily medicated. I feel so badly now for those people...yes, some of them needed meds,needed counseling...they needed help,a voice....like being trapped in a cage with sound proof walls....screaming and no one to hear them...

I understand now that when at times I would talk about it when I was younger, it was actually a sign for help....I was hoping someone would say "What?".....:"what did you just say?"....
BETH...I want you to know that I'm here for you too,my friend.....just know that I'm hugging you tight

Nellie
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: mcnell1120 on April 18, 2008, 10:24:58 AM
Rob...we are all survivors...yes,you're so right....I'm so glad that's all in the past now!!

big (((hugs))) to you too!!
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Rob in Puyallup on April 18, 2008, 10:36:52 AM
Nellie...

I've missed your frequent hours longs visits to the Diner. (I've not really been there much lately, myself...)

I hope some day in the near future we're able to see each other in person again. Last time was Linda's in San Antonio. Too long ago...

Big hugs with kisses, sweetie!

Rob
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: mcnell1120 on April 18, 2008, 12:36:53 PM
Nellie...

I've missed your frequent hours longs visits to the Diner. (I've not really been there much lately, myself...)

I hope some day in the near future we're able to see each other in person again. Last time was Linda's in San Antonio. Too long ago...

Big hugs with kisses, sweetie!

Rob

Rob,

I miss those days too,darling.....don't know if it'll ever be that way again. Don't even know if we'll ever see each other again....but one thing I DO KNOW, is that I still want to keep in touch...still want to read your posts and know how all of you are doing....I still care and still think of you

Today was one of those days...I had lots of time to roam the halls in here and catch up...

and even though I voiced some things just now...it's only in the past....these things don't haunt me anymore,they were just there..you know me...once it's in my head I have to vent...lol....but I know you guys understand,and to me that's such a gift...I'm so grateful for you all...

((hugs))

Nellie
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Miaisland on April 18, 2008, 12:54:05 PM
this is one of those threads that, although it often goes silent for stretches at a time, makes me feel better just knowing it is here and available should i need it.
so far i have been doing okay so i have been silent.
i hope you all have been doing okay too.

beth


Have the same feelings, had the same thoughts....

((((((((((((((((( Marc, Nellie, Beth, Rob ))))))))))))))))))!!!!!!!

With love!!!!!
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Brokeback_1 on June 29, 2008, 03:43:17 AM
Silent or not, I'm glad this thread is still here.

Give it a few...it will be active again--- for the healing which took place on this thread defies description.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Amiennis on June 29, 2008, 04:09:53 AM
Silent or not, I'm glad this thread is still here.

Give it a few...it will be active again--- for the healing which took place on this thread defies description.

Hey (((Jack)))
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: jnov on June 29, 2008, 04:54:41 PM
hi jack,
nice to see you again!

 :) :) :) :)


Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: ybwc on June 29, 2008, 06:04:54 PM
It is an important thread. I can't change the circumstances of my own abuse. I definitely choose to see it differently. As a result, it's been easier to understand myself, my behaviors, the decisions I made/make to this day. I still have occassional hiccup about being homosexual.

One of my favourite lines in the movie is when Ennis says to Jack when they were at the bar the first time. Ennis is telling Jack about his parents being passed on. "There was only one curve on the road, and they miss it." That just symbolizes so much for me. I ain't missing that curve on the road, for if I did, it would be my own demise.

After seeing Brokeback Mountain in December 2006, a year and a half later,  I am who I am supposed to be in this life. Heath R.I.P.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: CellarDweller115 on June 29, 2008, 06:32:53 PM
I agree, this thread will always be important.

Even as we move on, we won't forget the abuse we've suffered.  Perhaps we won't be as affected as much, but  we won't forget.

In Oxford, I was asked by one of the members if I was still haunted by my past.  I answered him briefly, but honestly.  On some days, no, but other days, yes, it can still haunt me.  While it's not a constant thing, my past will still rear its head.

However, I feel I have some better tools to help me deal with it.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: michaelflanagansf on June 29, 2008, 09:36:16 PM
I was talking recently about familial violence with a friend and realized how much of an effect it has - even on people who are not directly involved in the violence.

As a child I saw the effects of violence on two children in my family - and I also knew about the abuse that one of my female relatives faced from her spouse.  It has haunted me to this day.  I was thinking about this when I came across these statistics today:

http://www.ojp.gov/nij/topics/crime/intimate-partner-violence/extent.htm

http://www.now.org/issues/violence/043003pregnant.html

Fortunately my relative got out of her abusive marriage - but as I said, it still haunts me and has probably given me issues regarding trusting men.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: CellarDweller115 on June 30, 2008, 07:07:46 AM
that wouldn't surprise me, Michael.

When one witnesses ongoing abuse like that, it has a lasting effect.

I'm glad to hear your relative got out of that dangerous situation.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: mcnell1120 on July 01, 2008, 04:35:45 PM

However, I feel I have some better tools to help me deal with it.

Chucky...I have to say this here comment, answers it all....

There is NO WAY in hell that anyone who has suffered some trauma of some sorts,be able to just forget it and move on....life does go and move on..of course it does...human nature allows us to...but NOW...we do have better tools to deal with shit...and you come to realize that you are stronger and can continue your life without constantly thinking about your past or having it control you...it does mold you and even though you may not like certain things about how you "think"...life can still be good...right?  ;)

(((hugs)))

Nellie
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: CellarDweller115 on July 01, 2008, 04:41:56 PM
There is NO WAY in hell that anyone who has suffered some trauma of some sorts,be able to just forget it and move on....life does go and move on..of course it does...human nature allows us to...but NOW...we do have better tools to deal with shit...and you come to realize that you are stronger and can continue your life without constantly thinking about your past or having it control you...it does mold you and even though you may not like certain things about how you "think"...life can still be good...right?  ;)

(((hugs)))

Nellie


(((((((Nellie)))))))

I bolded the part above, because it's important.  I think you made a great point.  Yes, the experience molds you, and it's part of the make up of your persona.  However, just because it was a negative experience, it doesn't make you a negative person.  Recognize your inner strength, focus on what is good in your life, stand tall, and move forward.

It's not easy.....but it's possible, and you will feel better for doing it.  Be a survivor.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: ybwc on July 04, 2008, 06:45:00 AM
Chucky, Nellie, Mike, jnov -sharing your experiences here helps me. I appreciate your insights. My Mom is 82, still active around the house. I enjoy the time I have as I suspect her time is short-then who knows. she has so much vigor some days. My father was particularly physically abusive with her over us kids. I notice on occasion she brings up the regrets of having to have gone through this abuse. Age and stage kinda things.

The other day, literally, out of the blue she says, I regret saying some of the things I said to you when I was visiting you in Vancouver. I said I don't remember what you said. Her response was (she was visibly upset/angry), "Who did this to you?" referring to me being sexually abused. I never once said anything to her about my sexual abuse. For one, I couldn't say to her it began with your brother (my uncle). My body just froze, there were weird strange sensations. My mind went blank-attempting to block the memories so I could end this conversation.  I couldn't proceed with this conversation so I changed the topic. I have no intention of telling her.
I suspect my brother must have said something to her many years ago. I figured she thinks my abuse made me homosexual.

The point is the physical and sexual abuse changed the family dynamic for me-I am uncomfortable around my brothers as they are of me. It's like a wall. This maybe a mental thing but I swear to you this wall is as real as any wall I have ever physically touched. Some days it drives me crazy. I think I need to invest in some new tools. It never ends.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: ybwc on July 04, 2008, 06:51:04 AM
After re-reading what I wrote. It occured to me that my physical abuse open the doors for my sexual abuse. I suspect for some the reverse is true.  :(
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: jnov on July 04, 2008, 02:31:48 PM
Chucky, Nellie, Mike, jnov -sharing your experiences here helps me. I appreciate your insights. My Mom is 82, still active around the house. I enjoy the time I have as I suspect her time is short-then who knows. she has so much vigor some days. My father was particularly physically abusive with her over us kids. I notice on occasion she brings up the regrets of having to have gone through this abuse. Age and stage kinda things.

The other day, literally, out of the blue she says, I regret saying some of the things I said to you when I was visiting you in Vancouver. I said I don't remember what you said. Her response was (she was visibly upset/angry), "Who did this to you?" referring to me being sexually abused. I never once said anything to her about my sexual abuse. For one, I couldn't say to her it began with your brother (my uncle). My body just froze, there were weird strange sensations. My mind went blank-attempting to block the memories so I could end this conversation.  I couldn't proceed with this conversation so I changed the topic. I have no intention of telling her.
I suspect my brother must have said something to her many years ago. I figured she thinks my abuse made me homosexual.

The point is the physical and sexual abuse changed the family dynamic for me-I am uncomfortable around my brothers as they are of me. It's like a wall. This maybe a mental thing but I swear to you this wall is as real as any wall I have ever physically touched. Some days it drives me crazy. I think I need to invest in some new tools. It never ends.


it can end.  at least the part that freezes you in your tracks, the part that won't allow you to talk about it.  that part can end.  and you are right, the right tools are essential.

everyone's "tools" are different but i found counseling essential.  i never would have been able to heal, never would have been able to help myself without it.  and it required counseling over several years at different times in my life.  i would go for a while, feel stronger, and then something would happen and i found i needed to go back again, for a "maintenance schedule", if you will.   :)

and "invest" is the right word.  it takes time and money for counseling, i know.  when i first started going i had no money so i found a counseling agency that would set my payment fee on a sliding scale, depending on how much money i was making at that time.

counseling might not be the right answer for you, but i have talked to many people for whom it was indispensable.

whatever way you find works, please, please find your tools.  you deserve it.  you are a strong and good person and you deserve to feel whole within yourself.

it took me years, like 20 years, to be able to say to someone, "i was abused" without feeling guilt or shame.  but i have finally come to not just intellectually understand but to feel that what happened happened to me, it did not happen because of me.  now i equate it with being mugged.  if someone gets mugged on the streets they don't feel guilty saying, "someone mugged me" even if there are consequences like they can't go out after dark anymore or they feel scared in certain circumstances.  there is no guilt or shame attached to it.  i have come to see my abuse in the same way.  it happened to me, and so there is no guilt or shame on my part about it or its long-lasting consequences.


Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: CellarDweller115 on July 04, 2008, 02:42:53 PM
Just remember that while a part of it will end, a part of it will stay with you to some degree.

There was one kid who went out of his way to make life difficult for me in Jr. High and High School.  I can still picture his face, and remember his name.

He used to wear this type of cologne.  I'm sure it was a brand name, but it smelled cheap and nasty.  I learned to recognize that scent, and he wore so much of it, I could smell it a mile away.  I would stop in my tracks, determine were it was coming from, and run in the opposite direction.  It was like some strange version of a nature show, with him as predator, and me as prey.

Not long ago, I was shopping at a store and suddenly, there was that scent again.  My knees locked, and I broke out into a cold sweat.  Once I realized it was another man wearing it, and not "him", I was able to move again.

It freaked me out quite a bit.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Amiennis on July 04, 2008, 03:50:26 PM
Just remember that while a part of it will end, a part of it will stay with you to some degree.

There was one kid who went out of his way to make life difficult for me in Jr. High and High School.  I can still picture his face, and remember his name.

He used to wear this type of cologne.  I'm sure it was a brand name, but it smelled cheap and nasty.  I learned to recognize that scent, and he wore so much of it, I could smell it a mile away.  I would stop in my tracks, determine were it was coming from, and run in the opposite direction.  It was like some strange version of a nature show, with him as predator, and me as prey.

Not long ago, I was shopping at a store and suddenly, there was that scent again.  My knees locked, and I broke out into a cold sweat.  Once I realized it was another man wearing it, and not "him", I was able to move again.

It freaked me out quite a bit.

There are still days that I seem to "see" my father everywhere...
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: ybwc on July 04, 2008, 08:48:39 PM
jnov, chuck-yeah you are right-invest in the right tools. I have done work with the EAP @ work. Admittedly, I still have issues (they're muttering no shit sherlock l ::) . What would Ennis do? I swear I will get the right people involved.

Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: jnov on July 17, 2008, 08:30:54 PM
i was just looking at Postsecret (do you guys know it?  kinds cool place.  http://postsecret.blogspot.com/  )

anyway, one of the postcards said:
I hate that I can't know if I'd be different if I hadn't been molested as a child.

and then below it someone emailed in a reply that said:
I used to hate that, too. But after hating it for a long, long time (I am now 43) I realized that I love who I've become so much that I embrace all the awful things that went into the mix and therefore shaped the person I am today.

and i thought to myself BULLSHIT
even though i have told myself the same thing on other days, today i think it is bullshit.  i still wonder what my life would be like if i hadn't been molested.  i still remember myself before the abuse and think, "if that child had been allowed to become an adult without the abuse..."

big, big sigh.  and yes, i generally like myself these days.  but what if .....



Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: killersmom on July 17, 2008, 08:48:16 PM
We all always have our what if's jnov.
Me especially.
As you say, good days we say we don't, but bad days we do.
Just that part of life we have no control over.
Just as we had no control over the abuse.

I agree with you though......what if.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: jnov on July 17, 2008, 09:34:46 PM
yeah.   :-\ :)
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: desertrat on July 22, 2008, 03:46:00 AM
i wrote such an elaboate post and now it's gone... :'(

well, i'll try again: it may sound weird, but i'm grateful for the person i became. i got stronger, self confident afterwards. i'm not grateful for being treated like low life, like a piece of meat; but i also can't harbor anger any more. the abuse and the terrible time afterwards forced me to look at me and my life, and to look inside, where i found my own strength. before, i was small, quiet, had no self confidence. i probably would have stayed that way. i was forced to develop, to spread my wings and start this great life i'm living now.

i'm not sure if it works for everybody....but i always liked to idea of the phoenix who rises from the ashes of his own self  :)

(http://www.the-legend-of-phoenix.com/images/Phoenix_by_Shyada_320.jpg)
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: jnov on July 22, 2008, 07:13:10 AM
great pic.

and yes, i can definitely see how the abuse has made me a more compassionate person, able to understand lots of gray emotions, contradictions, complexities, etc that i otherwise might not have been understanding of.  and i think i am far more understanding of power, internal and external, and the games that are played for it than i otherwise might have been.

but there are times when i see the little girl that i was and just sigh.


Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Rob in Puyallup on July 22, 2008, 09:01:34 AM
I gotta say...

I survived too.

Not knowing if my way of looking at people as " I'm not perfect, why should I expect it from them" is because of a personal weakness, or because of the endless hours I've spent living my life as an introvert because of that survival...
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: desertrat on July 22, 2008, 12:27:57 PM
you touched another important point there, rob! knowing myself and my life, i'm not fooled by people's behavior any more. they might seem strong and self confident, but there's very often a small, fragile person in there....i've learned to treat others the way i want to be treated.

jnov, of course that little girl comes out at times again...and it is also part of us. on the other hand, whatever would have happened, we couldn't have stayed that little girl. we had to grow up. it could have happened a bit "softer", but it would have happened nevertheless. maybe we are longing for a paradise that never was?
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Rob in Puyallup on July 22, 2008, 10:19:06 PM
you touched another important point there, rob! knowing myself and my life, i'm not fooled by people's behavior any more. they might seem strong and self confident, but there's very often a small, fragile person in there....i've learned to treat others the way i want to be treated.

Exactly... thank you for that, Martina...
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: michaelflanagansf on July 24, 2008, 12:33:15 AM
Okay two things...first, I rarely think about being abused as a child (and it lasted over a few years...so it wasn't brief) and I do not feel small or fragile.  If anything I often feel like kicking people's...er...butts.  I feel that fighting against my attackers (there were a few in a family) did help me in the long run and that it also helped (a lot) to be in therapy for a long while (7 years for the last stint, two years in college).  I don't know if this makes me different or weird, and it certainly does not invalidate anyone else's experiences - it's just me.

It probably helps that my primary abuser died in prison over 10 year ago too.  For a long time I was angry at my mother for not doing more to get me out of the situation where I was abused (on a school bus) but she's dead now too - so I don't think about that too much either.

Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: desertrat on July 24, 2008, 01:32:53 AM
michael, i think you have a point. being empowerded, fighting back - it makes you feel less helpless. it can make a huge difference!
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: michaelflanagansf on July 24, 2008, 01:38:57 AM
michael, i think you have a point. being empowerded, fighting back - it makes you feel less helpless. it can make a huge difference!

It wasn't really anything I made a decision to do - it was just a survival strategy.  Nobody was doing anything to stop the abuse so I did.  Were it today I probably would get into trouble for it - I had to bang their heads against a window in the bus and scratch and fight - but they got the message and left me alone.

There was, of course, fear associated with this whole thing.  I can remember that there were some boys abusing a mentally challenged boy in my school and I tried to stop them - and they said if I didn't leave them alone that I would be next.

It was a very brutal time in my life - sexuality and violence were very intertwined there.  If I were to say that there were any one thing that has hung on in my life it is that I am very careful about letting men into my personal space before I get to know them well.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: michaelflanagansf on July 24, 2008, 01:41:55 AM
Oh!  And one other thing.  I was out on the street with a friend who had been raped earlier in her life and we saw a group of men coming and BOTH started to cross the street to get away from them.  When we realized that we had the same 'survival' reaction we had a bit of a laugh about it.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Amiennis on July 24, 2008, 02:51:02 AM
If I were to say that there were any one thing that has hung on in my life it is that I am very careful about letting men into my personal space before I get to know them well.

I know so very well what you mean...
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: michaelflanagansf on July 24, 2008, 03:13:37 AM
If I were to say that there were any one thing that has hung on in my life it is that I am very careful about letting men into my personal space before I get to know them well.

I know so very well what you mean...

That's what's so wonderful about this place - by the time we met and got together in person there were no problems of this sort at all.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Miaisland on August 02, 2008, 02:51:20 PM
Thank you so much for posting in this thread, all of you doing so. Love you all! Wish I could say the right thing – but I don't know what that would be. Other than that – love you all!

I am not sure if this is the right place to talk about this....

Just a few years ago I was bullied at a workplace. It was bad and it still affects me on a daily basis. It affects me so much. After that I withdraw, hold things within and avoid people as much as I can. Really avoid people. Never done that before, always been very social. This forum made a difference to me after these years. I started to communicate again. That felt good even if it wasn't IRL. I have also started to talk about what happened to me with a few of my friends here in Pm's. I think that talking about it might make a difference. Even if it's hard to explain, hard for someone who hasn't experienced bullying or adult bullying to understand...

For me this is new, it's scary and I don't know right now how to move on. I have studied the subject, read some reports. I know that I'm not alone, that my reactions to what happened to me was something others experienced too. Still it is such a hard thing to deal with.

Have anyone else experienced adult bullying, workplace bullying?

Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: desertrat on August 02, 2008, 04:09:49 PM
mia, i'm so sorry that you had to experience bullying! it's awful, and imho, not worthy of grown up people. i don't think i've experienced the worst of it, but in my last job a collegue tried to do it. remember my rantings i the diner? luckily, i was able to deflect his behaviour and put evidence on the table that showed who was right and who was wrong. the year before, we had another collegue who tried that with me. again, she was stupid enough to do her job really badly, so she had to leave. nevertheless, it was an awful time for me and it took all my strength to keep myself together at work. those collegue, together with the one i mentioned in the beginning, and 2 others were forming more or less an alliance against me. unfortunately, i had to work together with them on a daily basis. and even though i tried to tell myself that it doesn't matter, it did and i was terribly hurt. but then, i was lucky. they didn't do their jobs well, and of the 4, only 2 are still working there. i was in the lucky position that the success of my work was easy to show, so i never had troubles with my bosses, it was just collegues jealous of my accomplishments....but in the beginning, i felt pretty helpless against them. i don't know what to recommend people in this situation...maybe, the best way is always to work on your own self confidence. if you trust in your own abilities, if wou are confident with yourself, then it is MUCH more difficult to hurt you.  :)

well, i hope things are better now and the forum helped you to find self confidence - you sure can see here how much people like you, don't you?  ;)
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: jnov on August 02, 2008, 10:19:11 PM
mia,
hi.
i am glad you found this forum and have met some of the great people here.
i have not had the experience of workplace bullying but i did want to say that i applaud your strength and courage to start talking about the way it affected and still affects you.
it tells me that you are strong because you have taken active, positive steps to take back control of your own life.  good for you!! keep talking, we are all here for you.  even if some of us have not specifically experienced workplace bullying, we have experienced the feelings of powerlessness, fear, frustration and anger that other people's action can cause.  we understand.  keep talking!!!   :)

beth
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Miaisland on August 03, 2008, 01:48:59 AM
Thank you ((((((( Martina )))))))! Thank you ((((((( Beth )))))))!

When I started to process what happened to me I found a report about dealing with psychopath bosses and organizations were psychopath behavior is encouraged within the system. The author used the word psychopath as he thought it best described the behavior, knowing that research concerning psychopath behavior isn't relevant as studies are made on criminals, not on people who know how to work their ways within organizations and create power for themselves and chaos for others.

These people are so skilled, they have so many methods to save there skins, it's like a question of life and death to defend themselves to anything or anyone that might threaten them in any way. As for many others in the same situation I was better educated, I was confident, had a broad network relevant for the project we worked in and got lots of attention for what I did. It didn't matter at all that I gave others credits as often as I could and focused on a good result for the project we worked in. I mean that I really tried to keep a low profile for me personally. No matter what I did I was a threat. And the more I tried to show that I wasn't threatening anyone the worse it got. There was no way I could fight the kind of aggression I met.

One thing that seems to be in common is that the victim's can't really describe what happened. Things doesn't seem to make sense to others. That is one of the reasons it is so hard to move on, that it is so hard to tell others what happened, to be really understood, to talk about what I am dealing with....

Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: jnov on August 03, 2008, 12:08:20 PM
mia, that must be sooooo frustrating!!!

but i think most, if not all, of us here understand that each person's story is unique, yet also universal.  the individual details are unique and the emotions are felt uniquely by each person.  but the feelings that are evoked, the negative, disruptive effect on each life, those things are universal.  and we all understand that part.

for my part, i always thought my particular situation wasn't "bad enough" to warrant complaining about, even though it completely altered who i was and how i lived.  it took me a long time and a lot of talking to other people before i realized that there is no bad enough, good enough or anything other measuring stick of what constitutes abuse.  only that it hurt me and changed my life in some way, big or small.  and that was "enough."

you said
Quote
I was better educated, I was confident, had a broad network relevant for the project we worked in and got lots of attention for what I did.

you are still all those things!  don't forget that.   :) :-*

beth
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Miaisland on August 03, 2008, 12:12:44 PM
for my part, i always thought my particular situation wasn't "bad enough" to warrant complaining about, even though it completely altered who i was and how i lived. 

That's exactly how I feel, here and now.

you said
Quote
I was better educated, I was confident, had a broad network relevant for the project we worked in and got lots of attention for what I did.

you are still all those things!  don't forget that.   :) :-*

beth

Thank you so much for saying so!

 :-* :-* :-*
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: jnov on August 03, 2008, 03:41:33 PM
(http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s36/somh/icons/grouphug.gif)
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: desertrat on August 04, 2008, 03:34:11 AM
One thing that seems to be in common is that the victim's can't really describe what happened. Things doesn't seem to make sense to others. That is one of the reasons it is so hard to move on, that it is so hard to tell others what happened, to be really understood, to talk about what I am dealing with....

yes, that is true! and those who do the bullying manage to "sell" themselves and their viewpoint much netter than you do. you don't know me personally (yet  ;)) but i think those who know me will have a good laugh when i tell them that i had a meeting with my boss one day who told me that i had to become more sensitive to the feelings of others, that i was too egoistic and didn't care about others. i was told i should become more social. why and how could it come so far that such a wrong picture of could be created? well,  it was very simple. i never complained about the collegue who was mistreating me. i was working like a madwoman, very often had to jump in when he didn't do his work correctly. i had no TIME for socialising. i was running close to burnout, just to get the things done that i had to. my collegue had lots of time to establish a social network, complain to my boss and so on. my boss only knew one side of the story, i would have felt like a telltale, if i went to my bosses complaining...i thought my good work would speak for me. it did, and my work was always greatly apprechiated - but i felt like the never really knew me. it hurt. i changed now. i still have trouble taling about personal things with my bosses, but i know now that a good boss is also responsible for the human relations in a company. and now my collegues don't think i'm self-centered and unsociable  ;)
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: desertrat on August 04, 2008, 03:35:01 AM
you said
Quote
I was better educated, I was confident, had a broad network relevant for the project we worked in and got lots of attention for what I did.

you are still all those things!  don't forget that.   :) :-*

beth

i can only second that. you should ALWAYS be aware of that.  :)
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Tahoelvr on August 04, 2008, 12:25:40 PM
Hi all,

first time in this thread - I have a unique problem in that I feel like I am trying to prevent some abuse - if this isn't the right place for my post feel free to tell me.

I have a friend who has a family member who is gay, deeply in the closet, married with children.  He was recently investigated by the police for belonging to some sort of group that is underground that participates in some kinky activities involving drugging and maybe S&M.  He was apparently counseled and went back to his "normal" life.  Now, he is secretly videotaping swimmers and water polo players at his hometown high schools.  He was confronted by parents of those children and was warned by the police to knock it off.

This man also has a young male child who uses some pretty inappropriate words here and there.  He will randomly spell out "cock" or other things.  My friend was told not to worry that all kids do that.  I don't have any frame of reference as I don't know any kids that did and I know for certain that my child has never done that.  So, my dilemma is this - this man has now signed on to be a Boy Scout Leader and is also a religious counselor in an after school program. 

So, my gut is telling me is that this man is a pedophile and it has nothing to do with being gay.  I told my friend that I would write in here and see what everyone else has to say.  I tried to explain that gay people are not perverts and don't sneak around taping kids and other activities. 

Am I over-reacting to this and this man is merely just trying to satisfy some sort of deeply closeted behavior and he would never act upon it?  Or is my guy right on this and this man is dangerous to other children in particular young men and boys and while he is gay, it has nothing to do with that?



Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Amiennis on August 04, 2008, 03:43:05 PM
I hurt myself today
to see if I still feel
I focus on the pain
the only thing that's real


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0bZtf5MCzY

On days like these, I feel like all efforts are in vain, I will be defeated - or defeat myself? - after all.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: desertrat on August 04, 2008, 03:50:19 PM
Tahoelvr, i don't know what to best tell you....i mean, one can't be careful enough and still, one has to be careful not to accuse innocent people. maybe your gut feeling is the best thing to rely on.

filming kids during school events - unless it's your own child taking part or you are the school photographer - defintely will make you suspicious.

a little kid using fould language wouldn't make me suspicious, they are all trying to see how far they can go.

and, of course, being interested in S&M has NOTHING to do with pedophily at all - i actually don't udnerstand why the police should investige somebody being part of a S&M group? i don't know any laws who would forbid kinky sex...

where do you know from that the man is gay? maybe he is not gay at all but simply a pedophile?
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Tahoelvr on August 04, 2008, 04:16:33 PM
Hi Desert,  thanks for the reply.

To answer those questions: as far as this man being gay, I know for a fact that he came out to his family, moved to the city for a while then was forced back into that closet by his parents. He is in his 40's.  It's very sad.  His whole family is very secretive.

I agree about the S/M thing.  I am sure that there is more to this but I can't seem to get her to reveal details.  I did find out just today that the police confiscated his computer and it all wrapped around this club so maybe there were minors involved.  Not sure.   

My friend has been my friend for over 20 years and this is her brother in law.  So, I am removed from it but she does tell me details here and there.  I think she is really upset but also embarassed as children from all sides attend the same schools and again just today told me that she was called into the District office (she works at a school) to find out if she knew him because of the same names.

My gut is now yelling that he is just a creep and I think I need to figure out a way to convince her that this is not a "closet" thing or even a fetish thing that he is doing to supress his being gay but that he is just a creep.

I realize this may read a little "off" but I am working on rather sketchy details and trying to decipher what is really going on with what is being told.

And, I completely agree that I would never want to complicate this mans life by adding yet more problems in reporting him, but I would be sick forever if I thought I had information to prevent a child from being abused and didn't do anything.

Any ideas??



Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: jnov on August 04, 2008, 09:15:05 PM
I hurt myself today
to see if I still feel
I focus on the pain
the only thing that's real


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0bZtf5MCzY

On days like these, I feel like all efforts are in vain, I will be defeated - or defeat myself? - after all.

amiennis,
no defeat.  find a place of silence, within yourself or out, and wait for strength.  it will come.
no defeat.  seek help.  you can find support and understanding here, if you wish.
just make it through this day.  that's all you need to do. 
no defeat.

beth
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: jnov on August 04, 2008, 09:27:07 PM
Hi all,

first time in this thread - I have a unique problem in that I feel like I am trying to prevent some abuse - if this isn't the right place for my post feel free to tell me.

I have a friend who has a family member who is gay, deeply in the closet, married with children.  He was recently investigated by the police for belonging to some sort of group that is underground that participates in some kinky activities involving drugging and maybe S&M.  He was apparently counseled and went back to his "normal" life.  Now, he is secretly videotaping swimmers and water polo players at his hometown high schools.  He was confronted by parents of those children and was warned by the police to knock it off.

This man also has a young male child who uses some pretty inappropriate words here and there.  He will randomly spell out "cock" or other things.  My friend was told not to worry that all kids do that.  I don't have any frame of reference as I don't know any kids that did and I know for certain that my child has never done that.  So, my dilemma is this - this man has now signed on to be a Boy Scout Leader and is also a religious counselor in an after school program. 

So, my gut is telling me is that this man is a pedophile and it has nothing to do with being gay.  I told my friend that I would write in here and see what everyone else has to say.  I tried to explain that gay people are not perverts and don't sneak around taping kids and other activities. 

Am I over-reacting to this and this man is merely just trying to satisfy some sort of deeply closeted behavior and he would never act upon it?  Or is my guy right on this and this man is dangerous to other children in particular young men and boys and while he is gay, it has nothing to do with that?





i hesitate to respond to your post only because i have nothing constructive to say.  but i don't want you to think this is not an appropriate place to ask your question, it is.

it is a tough situation.  it sounds to me like the police are already aware of this man.  and the other parents are aware of him too.  perhaps what is warranted is educating the community about pedophiles, how they work and how gay people are not any more likely to be a pedophile than any other person.  education and awareness usually help most situations.

i don't know if this post is helpful.  perhaps others in this thread have more helpful advice?
good luck.

Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Amiennis on August 05, 2008, 05:17:29 AM
amiennis,
no defeat.  find a place of silence, within yourself or out, and wait for strength.  it will come.
no defeat.  seek help.  you can find support and understanding here, if you wish.
just make it through this day.  that's all you need to do. 
no defeat.

beth

Thanks, Beth.
Key words for me are: "Just make it through this day; that's all you need to do."
And I did.
One day at a time.

And thank you, as always, (((Martina))).
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: desertrat on August 05, 2008, 06:31:51 AM
no worries, honey.  :-* i was glad i was around yesterday evening....there's definitely something that speaks for those late-night check-ins  :D
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Tahoelvr on August 10, 2008, 01:27:38 PM
Hi, thanks for your posts.  I got more information, finally had my friend tell me the whole story.  After learning everything, we decided that the Scouts should be made aware of what is going on.  This man is deeply troubled and I am completely comfortable that I am not doing anything that would be inappropriate regarding his wife and children and life, but protecting some children from almost certain abuse.

The good thing that came out of it was my friend and her family are taking steps to educate themselves and their adult kids about the Uncle's behavior and assuring everyone in the family that it is not because he is gay but because he is sick.  So, like jnov said a little education helps.

Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: CellarDweller115 on August 10, 2008, 01:54:00 PM
that's good to hear, Tahoelvr!   Thanks for the update.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: CellarDweller115 on November 13, 2008, 07:37:52 PM
I've had something on my mind since Halloween night.  Haven't mentioned it to anyone, but maybe it's time to get it off my chest, only so I can get some other opinions on the matter.

I've often said that I try not to hold a grudge.  It's better to get something out of your system, find a way to make peace with it, if possible, and move on.  Not let it consume your thoughts and life.

but sometimes, you get tossed a curve ball.

I have mentioned previously that I took a lot of abuse at one of my past job locations.  I can still see the homophobic graffiti they wrote about me on the men's and women's room walls of the store.  Verbal abuse took place out of earshot of management.

It was Halloween night, and I was invited to a friend's house.  The hostess had invited a group of people, some I knew, some I didn't.  I was talking to some people when the doorbell rang, and a man walked in.  The hostess introduced him to everyone, and conversation resumed.

About 15 minutes later, the hostess (yes, I'm purposefully not using names) approached me to say that her friend recognized me, we had worked together.  I looked at him, but didn't recognize him.  He started to talk about where and when he worked, and I finally put the pieces together.  He was one of the jerks that had targeted me in the store.

I somehow managed to disguise my shock, and treated him decently, while he went on about his life, and asked me what I was up to.  He seemed to think that we liked each other, or that I had just forgotten the stuff that went on.

I didn't want to say anything.  I didn't want to put my friend (the hostess) in an awkward position, so I just let it go.  I left the party a few hours later (I refused to leave any earlier than I had planned) and was pretty pissed at that point.

So, is it wrong or immature to still feel this way?  Should I have said something, or wouldn't that have mattered?  Was I right to let it go, or should I have expected an apology that I wasn't going to get?

Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Miaisland on November 14, 2008, 02:33:52 AM
I somehow managed to disguise my shock, and treated him decently, while he went on about his life, and asked me what I was up to.  He seemed to think that we liked each other, or that I had just forgotten the stuff that went on.

I didn't want to say anything.  I didn't want to put my friend (the hostess) in an awkward position, so I just let it go.  I left the party a few hours later (I refused to leave any earlier than I had planned) and was pretty pissed at that point.

So, is it wrong or immature to still feel this way?  Should I have said something, or wouldn't that have mattered?  Was I right to let it go, or should I have expected an apology that I wasn't going to get?



(((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((( Chuck ))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

The same thing has happened to me. And I didn't want to say anything either, mostly because I didn't want others to be uncomfortable at the moment. I still haven't figured out if it's right to let things like this go...

What I am sure of is that it's NOT wrong or immature to feel bad in a situation like this. How could it be? Facing someone that did their best to 'shame' you, that for some reason needed someone to pick on and choose to abuse you is a hard thing to go through. I think that what happens in the process, to the person being bullied, is impossible to understand. It's too complex. It's also impossible for the victim to deal with it without help and support.

How could it be wrong to feel bad in a situation like this? The bully knew, you knew, but other people in the room didn't? To explain, to tell others about things like this is a very hard thing to do. Partly because one doesn't understand it, partly because the bully was successful in 'shaming' and because the healing process takes such a long time.... After it happened to me I studied adult bullying, workplace related bullying, and it's said everywhere - it's nearly impossible to explain to others why the bully managed to get under one's skin.... In my experience for the bullied person to try to tell the whole story in a situation like this only ends up with saying things that feels confusing (because what happened IS confusing) and to face that others think there has been some conflict between two equal parts.... Instead of you being abused....

So in a situation like this - when talking to the bully who plays the game that nothing happened, that you were some kind of friends - it is just awful to play along. As I see it the only alternative is to leave the place.

Confrontation isn't possible, I think. Not without a real friend, that knows and understands, standing next to you.

I am so sorry you had to go through this.

 :-* :-* :-* :-* :-*





Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: desertrat on November 14, 2008, 02:35:13 AM
honey, first of all a big (((hug))).

and then, you shouldn't feel pissed. actually, you should feel really proud of yourself. you didn't tolerate the abuse without doing anything, you actually arose above everything that happened. i mean, YOU didn't recognize him any more while HE remembered you. first of all, that means that YOU bothered HIM a lot more than HE bothered YOU. that, imho, says a lot about him. either, homosexuality is such a topic for him (and then we have to ask why?....fill in the blanks...) OR he still feels so guilty, but is to cowardly to apologize, that he acts nicely now, hoping you would forget what he did.

not bringing up the past was a very big thing to do, it shows what a mature and noble personality you have. now you just have to make peace with it inside yourself  ;)

another thought: wasn't it that when you were working there, you were still overweight? you were a great target - being part of about every minority that gets picked upon...and now, suddenly, there is the "new" you: proud, out, handsome, happy....i'd say you must have seemed quite intimidating to him. in the eyes of the abusers, the abused have to be sad losers....what if they suddenly refuse to fit into that picture? that must throw the abusers quite off track.... ;)

all in all: well done, honey. and now, be proud of yourself instead of pissed and sad. you desevre to be proud.  :) :-*
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: jnov on November 14, 2008, 02:58:29 AM
i think martina hit it on the head.  you didn't remember him, he remembered you.  and had to tell the hostess so that she made sure you were forced to become aware of who he was.  he is the one who was immature, cowardly and still a bully.

there is no way you can "control" what you feel or how you feel in this situation.  and you shouldn't have to control your feelings.  there is no such thing as being "wrong" to feel a certain way!!

it is how you control your behavior that sets you apart from this other person.  and you proved through your actions that you were the better person, the better man. 

but i also agree with maisland, the healing process takes a long time and often it is two steps forward, one step back.  it is not a linear process and sometimes we all have setbacks.  so give yourself a little compassion and kindness.  don't beat up on yourself in any way for feeling the way you did or behaving the way you did.  you are great, you behaved great and you felt exactly what was natural for you to feel.

give yourself a big hug and then give yourself another one from all of us here!!  and then feel sorry for this person who has no meaning in your life any more.  (http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s36/somh/icons/grouphug.gif)



Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Tahoelvr on November 17, 2008, 11:57:41 PM
First, a confrontation would have done nothing for you, and second if he is a true bully he would probably have been able to outmaneuver your words and make you look like the bad guy for ruining the party.

People like that have no courage. They hide behind a wall of fear and when I ignore them and move on with my life,  they then they feel inferior.  After all, most people are afraid of what they don't know. 

Bullying sucks, but it exists all around, and in facets of life.

You did good Chuck! Be proud of yourself!
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Amiennis on December 16, 2008, 04:35:57 PM
A bit late ::), but nevertheless - well done, Chuck. You really are a strong person, do you know that?


Any other people here for whom this month is particularly difficult?
Dealing with it on a day-to-day basis, one day at a time is more than enough, but still...
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: CellarDweller115 on December 16, 2008, 04:40:49 PM
A bit late ::), but nevertheless - well done, Chuck. You really are a strong person, do you know that?


Any other people here for whom this month is particularly difficult?
Dealing with it on a day-to-day basis, one day at a time is more than enough, but still...


It's never too late!  :-*  and thanks for the compliment.  There are many days that I don't feel strong, but on the flip side, there are days I feel like Superman!

As for this month, yes, there are days where it can be very difficult, you are not alone on that.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Amiennis on December 16, 2008, 05:15:25 PM
(((Chuckie)))
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: CellarDweller115 on December 16, 2008, 05:18:07 PM
(((Marc)))
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: desertrat on December 17, 2008, 06:53:32 AM
((((((((marc and chuck))))))))

*martina disappears again*

 :) :)
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: jnov on December 17, 2008, 09:18:21 AM
its kind of funny (and kind of not) but i am back in counseling again and each week when i go in she will ask me, so how was the week? and i always say fine cause it generally always is.

and she says did you think about [what happened in here last week] and i say well i tried to but i have gotten so good at shutting off, shutting down, compartmentalizing that i can't until i walk into her office again.  i don't do it on purpose and i don't really know how not to do it.

a survival tactic i suppose but makes for slow progress.   :-\

a peaceful holiday season everyone. 


(http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s36/somh/icons/36_3_21.gif)
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: jnov on December 25, 2008, 12:21:55 AM
I wish peace and joy to all of us for the coming year.  And lots and lots of good hugs and warm love.

love, beth




Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: CellarDweller115 on December 25, 2008, 06:31:33 PM
thank you beth!

I hope that 2009 brings us a few steps closer to peace of mind for each one of us, and perhaps a recognition of inner strength we didn't realize we had on difficult days.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Amiennis on December 27, 2008, 03:07:35 PM
The Evil has died.
He remained evil until the very end.


Someday We'll All Be Free
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rB-fws8cO40


I hope I will be.

And everyone else here.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: fritzkep on December 27, 2008, 03:09:31 PM
May you somehow find closure, dearest (((((((((((((((((Marc))))))))))))))))))))))))

Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: CellarDweller115 on December 27, 2008, 03:21:31 PM
sending you love and hugs, Marc!


((((((((((Marc)))))))))
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Miaisland on December 27, 2008, 03:27:35 PM
((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((( Marc ))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

Love!
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Amiennis on December 28, 2008, 05:14:42 PM
Thank you, (((((guys)))))
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: desertrat on December 30, 2008, 05:32:05 AM
you ARE free, honey....don't EVER let him rule your life any more....!

((((((((marc))))))))
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: CellarDweller115 on December 31, 2008, 04:53:48 AM
To all of the Survivors,



(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g116/CellarDweller115/smilies%20for%20forum/New-Years-Time3.gif)


May 2009 bring all the posters here, past, present, and future
much happiness
abundance of health
love and respect
good fortunes
renewed spirit
boundless energy
strength when needed

Hoping that 2009 is a great year for you all!


Love,

Chuck
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: jnov on January 14, 2009, 08:57:00 AM
happy 2009 everyone.  i need some help.

so today in my counseling session i was talking about not liking my life, not liking where i live, not having control over many aspects of my life (including where i live), blah, blah.  and my counselor, rightly, told me that it was my choice, my life and my control.  i had made choices that made my life what it is.  and she was, is, right of course but it made me angry and sad and scared. 

i had earlier this week made an appointment, at the urging of my counselor, to see a different counselor who did something called eye-movement desensitization reprocessing which is supposed to help you fast-forward the processing and healing process.  so i have an appointment on friday.  (today is wednesday.) 

my first thought was, "i am canceling friday's appointment."  then as i tried to drive home and not become an emotional wreck, i kept thinking, "okay, my choice, my control.  she is right.  my life is exactly how i have made it.  i have no one to blame but myself.  no one to be angry at but myself.  no one to hate but myself.  who cares what happened in my past.  everyone has something in their past.  what matters is what have i done, behavior only, not emotions.  my choice, my control.  only my behaviors matter.  absolutely right." 

so why the fuck am i wasting her time and mine (and money) by going to counseling??  i should cancel counseling.  i either do or don't make my life how i want it to be.  forget whining, forget blame, forget self-pity and powerlessness and "i feel mainpulated" bullshit.  behavior.  my choice, my control. 

and i know somewhere inside that i shouldn't quit counseling but as of right now i can't walk back into her office.  that makes me a coward.  so be it.  i am a coward.  i am weak and stupid and full of self-pity and i have made my own life what it is. 

so i called a friend.  my best friend here.  someone i just described as the only reason i am still sane here.  and she met me for a drink and when i told her how i was thinking of quitting counseling she told me i was just scared (true) and that i was a coward and that in the four years she has known me i have done nothing to help myself and she said that my counselor just held a mirror up to me and the image was horrifying.  and then when i got upset and stopped talking, she waited about 2 minutes and then said that obviously this conversation wasn't gong anywhere and then she got up and left.

so i just need someone to tell me not to quit counseling.  (there i go again, not taking responsibility for myself!!)  what a fuck up i am!!  and yes i know everyone will say NO, NO you are not a fuck up but ...  whatever.  and ya'know, in some aspects of my life i am not.  but in many more i am.  my choice.  my control.

really.  i have such a headache. 



beth
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: CellarDweller115 on January 14, 2009, 09:25:55 AM
Hiya Beth,

you are right, we all have stuff in our past.

However, quitting couseling is not the way to go.

Sounds like you saw some hard truthes in your last session.  Take some time, reflect on it, and decide a course of action, that includes counseling.

:-*
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Amiennis on January 14, 2009, 03:32:26 PM
happy 2009 everyone.  i need some help.

so today in my counseling session i was talking about not liking my life, not liking where i live, not having control over many aspects of my life (including where i live), blah, blah.  and my counselor, rightly, told me that it was my choice, my life and my control.  i had made choices that made my life what it is.  and she was, is, right of course but it made me angry and sad and scared. 

i had earlier this week made an appointment, at the urging of my counselor, to see a different counselor who did something called eye-movement desensitization reprocessing which is supposed to help you fast-forward the processing and healing process.  so i have an appointment on friday.  (today is wednesday.) 

my first thought was, "i am canceling friday's appointment."  then as i tried to drive home and not become an emotional wreck, i kept thinking, "okay, my choice, my control.  she is right.  my life is exactly how i have made it.  i have no one to blame but myself.  no one to be angry at but myself.  no one to hate but myself.  who cares what happened in my past.  everyone has something in their past.  what matters is what have i done, behavior only, not emotions.  my choice, my control.  only my behaviors matter.  absolutely right." 

so why the fuck am i wasting her time and mine (and money) by going to counseling??  i should cancel counseling.  i either do or don't make my life how i want it to be.  forget whining, forget blame, forget self-pity and powerlessness and "i feel mainpulated" bullshit.  behavior.  my choice, my control. 

and i know somewhere inside that i shouldn't quit counseling but as of right now i can't walk back into her office.  that makes me a coward.  so be it.  i am a coward.  i am weak and stupid and full of self-pity and i have made my own life what it is. 

so i called a friend.  my best friend here.  someone i just described as the only reason i am still sane here.  and she met me for a drink and when i told her how i was thinking of quitting counseling she told me i was just scared (true) and that i was a coward and that in the four years she has known me i have done nothing to help myself and she said that my counselor just held a mirror up to me and the image was horrifying.  and then when i got upset and stopped talking, she waited about 2 minutes and then said that obviously this conversation wasn't gong anywhere and then she got up and left.

so i just need someone to tell me not to quit counseling.  (there i go again, not taking responsibility for myself!!)  what a fuck up i am!!  and yes i know everyone will say NO, NO you are not a fuck up but ...  whatever.  and ya'know, in some aspects of my life i am not.  but in many more i am.  my choice.  my control.

really.  i have such a headache. 



beth

Hey Beth,

I think your counselor would agree that your choices are also being influenced by what happened to you in your past, you cannot segregate those.
You are responsible to a certain degree, being traumatised as you are.
Things aren't that black and white (which is a truly difficult concept for me to grasp, granted).

Don't quit counseling, and stop being so hard on yourself (I know... it has been said to me a thousand times, at least - but keep trying).
Remember, you are among fellow fuck-ups here (well, at least one of them is feeling like one on a regular basis).

Marc
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: jnov on January 15, 2009, 05:58:52 AM
chuck and marc,
thanks so much for the support.
part of me wants to just be angry and say, "fuck it all."  it would be so much easier.
but there is a small voice inside telling me that that is not right although it makes me feel stupid and embarrassed about how i acted.
but i suppose that is part of the process.  sigh.  why does it always have to be so hard?

thanks again.   :-*

Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Amiennis on January 15, 2009, 07:24:18 AM
why does it always have to be so hard?


It IS hard. But you/we are not alone...
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: jnov on January 15, 2009, 08:32:12 AM
 :)  thanks.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: desertrat on January 18, 2009, 04:03:08 AM
hey beth,
i was away for a couple of days...i hope you went to your counseling yesterday?

hmmmm....let me try to formulate my take on the question - this is how i aproached the whole question when it arose for me. counseling is going to a doctor for the soul. if i  break me leg, i go to a doctor for leg fractures. if i break my soul, i go to a doctor for soul fractures. it is as easy as that.
when i just have a small cold, i need to weigh my options: will i be able to heal myself, by using some herbal tea and taking it slow for a couple of days or do i risk to run into a full-blown flu if i don't counsel a specialist? if i feel bad, i also need to weigh - am i able to solve my problems by myself or do i risk contracting a full-blown depression if i don't get help? it's as easy as that for me.  :)

yes, you ARE in charge of your life. no doctor can't help you if YOU don't do the major part of the work. he is just the plaster, YOU need to put it on  ;) it isn't a sign of weakness or defeat if you accept help - but it isn't a passive thing, you need to actively participate and turn the things you talk about there into lessons for your life.

you're a wonderful woman, and i'm sure that you are going to succed. just never give up, the road isn't always smooth and straight. but days will come when you are running smothly again to enjoy the view...  ;)
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Miaisland on January 18, 2009, 06:45:16 AM
((((((((((((((((((((((((((( Beth )))))))))))))))))))))))))))

I really understand how sad and angry and scared you felt after that session with the counsellor. No matter how right you felt she was about your choices and your control... I don't think you're a coward for the first reactions of not wanting to go back to her office. That would have been my first reactions anyway.

One question.... Is there a way for you to USE this, to use your reactions in the sessions to come? I mean can you talk to her about how what she said made you feel?

I hope you'll be able to continue your counselling. And to talk what happened over with your friend.

Love
Mia
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: jnov on January 18, 2009, 07:28:30 AM
martina and mia,
thank you.  i knew i could count on everyone here for support and wisdom.
and you are both right.  and yes, i will be continuing with counseling and figuring out why what she said made me so angry and how i can use that understanding to help me in my life.
once i got over the initial anger (which came from panic) i have actually been feeling stronger than i have in a long time.  i feel like i have regained control over my life.  not because of anything specific that has changed but because my attitude about my behavior and my choices has changed.
apparently i just needed a good kick in the pants!
so i will be discussing all this with my counselor as the process continues.
and thank you again for your support.  it makes all the difference!
 :-* :)
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Amiennis on March 24, 2009, 04:37:51 PM
I just posted this in the What Are You Listening To Right Now thread


Dirty Ol' Man by The Three Degrees
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0atv9v2nNww


Well, f*** them all, I say
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: desertrat on March 27, 2009, 05:18:24 PM
Well, f*** them all, I say

in a positive way? in a "my life is my life and i won't let anybody make it bitter for me"- way?  :)

(((((((((((((((((((marc)))))))))))))))))))))))
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Amiennis on March 27, 2009, 05:43:01 PM
Well, f*** them all, I say

in a positive way? in a "my life is my life and i won't let anybody make it bitter for me"- way?  :)

(((((((((((((((((((marc)))))))))))))))))))))))

Um... sort of.

(((((Martinita)))))
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Sandy on March 28, 2009, 08:28:48 AM
Hi Brokies,

Just a quick note. BrokenOkie/Glenn has become the forum's chief moderator. I am taking over his responsibilities in the Support Group threads, including this one, so he can concentrate on his new duties.

I look forward to working with you all.

Sandy
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: CellarDweller115 on March 28, 2009, 09:37:11 AM
Welcome Sandy!

Thanks for taking this on!
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: mcnell1120 on April 03, 2009, 10:33:40 AM
happy 2009 everyone.  i need some help.

so today in my counseling session i was talking about not liking my life, not liking where i live, not having control over many aspects of my life (including where i live), blah, blah.  and my counselor, rightly, told me that it was my choice, my life and my control.  i had made choices that made my life what it is.  and she was, is, right of course but it made me angry and sad and scared. 

i had earlier this week made an appointment, at the urging of my counselor, to see a different counselor who did something called eye-movement desensitization reprocessing which is supposed to help you fast-forward the processing and healing process.  so i have an appointment on friday.  (today is wednesday.) 

my first thought was, "i am canceling friday's appointment."  then as i tried to drive home and not become an emotional wreck, i kept thinking, "okay, my choice, my control.  she is right.  my life is exactly how i have made it.  i have no one to blame but myself.  no one to be angry at but myself.  no one to hate but myself.  who cares what happened in my past.  everyone has something in their past.  what matters is what have i done, behavior only, not emotions.  my choice, my control.  only my behaviors matter.  absolutely right." 

so why the fuck am i wasting her time and mine (and money) by going to counseling??  i should cancel counseling.  i either do or don't make my life how i want it to be.  forget whining, forget blame, forget self-pity and powerlessness and "i feel mainpulated" bullshit.  behavior.  my choice, my control. 

and i know somewhere inside that i shouldn't quit counseling but as of right now i can't walk back into her office.  that makes me a coward.  so be it.  i am a coward.  i am weak and stupid and full of self-pity and i have made my own life what it is. 

so i called a friend.  my best friend here.  someone i just described as the only reason i am still sane here.  and she met me for a drink and when i told her how i was thinking of quitting counseling she told me i was just scared (true) and that i was a coward and that in the four years she has known me i have done nothing to help myself and she said that my counselor just held a mirror up to me and the image was horrifying.  and then when i got upset and stopped talking, she waited about 2 minutes and then said that obviously this conversation wasn't gong anywhere and then she got up and left.

so i just need someone to tell me not to quit counseling.  (there i go again, not taking responsibility for myself!!)  what a fuck up i am!!  and yes i know everyone will say NO, NO you are not a fuck up but ...  whatever.  and ya'know, in some aspects of my life i am not.  but in many more i am.  my choice.  my control.

really.  i have such a headache. 



beth

Wow....I haven't visited this thread in months and months. I normally don't have the time to venture off my "comfort" zone, but this post captured me and stirred up some thoughts that I have had deep inside.

I don't know you really,Beth, but I've seen you all over the place...you sound like a put together type of gal to me,if I might say so ...

I have some similarities I guess in some of your feelings and thoughts....my past wasn't that bad compared to so many of you all.....back in the beginning of all this Forum stuff we all came in here and talked about our pasts...it started in the "How Brokeback Affected Me Thread"...I don't know what your past is....but mine was just life in the big tough city of urban Chicago....dealing with gangs and drugs...being raised on old school Catholic Hispanic beliefs ...being told girls and women don't do these things...torn with wanting to venture off into the world and being afraid of what my parents and family would think. I experienced alot with all this...dodged bullets literally ...was almost gang raped all that wonderful city "hood" life....God....just thinking about all that shit brings my hair up...

but anyway...a lot of this was hidden from my parents,they had no idea all this was going on....I protected them from the harsh reality of living under these conditions...they tried their best and did a great job in raising us 4 kids...they worked hard in their jobs and were so ignorant to the outside world........as far a emotional support...forget it...I never saw them kiss or hold hands, they never said "I love you" to us...they hardly hugged us...but we all knew we were loved...isn't that crazy?...we never complained and we were happy...

One thing all this brought on was lack of confidence in myself. I don't have any. I'm always afraid to try new things. I always say I'm going to fail even before I even venture to do it...I convince myself I can't do it or that it's a bad idea...I always wait for someone to say...DO IT   or  NO, DON'T DO IT....I call myself pathetic and my husband has to always take me and try to help me see that I'm not...I'm so lucky to have him...I try so hard to not say negative things in front of my children. I want them to be what I am not...I mean,I still give credit to myself,my my confidence...ugh....I push them and hurray them...  I always say good job when they fail....something my parents never did...it wasn't their fault....it was just the times we lived in....

I am 43 yrs old....going back and forth with stuff...when this Forum started I was a fucken mess...the people in here helped me see the light...we all helped each other like nothing I can ever dream...

anyway....I'm not going to keep going...but one thing I want to say to YOU...you're NOT a fuck up....don't be hard on yourself...you can take control of your life...see your counselor and explain ALL THIS to her....and slowly wean yourself from her.. I'm not a professional....so PLEASE feel the need to see her as often as you think you need....I just want you to say to her all these things you say to us...and if she isn't helping you go find someone else....let your friend be,,she may be your friend...but she needs time too...she's probably just frustrated...but that's HER problem and not yours...don't let her frustrations be yours...

I'm not sure if your family had anything to do with your self confidence as mine was.....but move on...keep your head up girl...we're here for you. Vent all you want....we understand....every step and move we make won't be a waste of time...accept failure because if you don't,you won't learn anything from it....okay?

(((hugs)))

Nellie
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: jnov on April 04, 2009, 07:30:12 AM

Wow....I haven't visited this thread in months and months. I normally don't have the time to venture off my "comfort" zone, but this post captured me and stirred up some thoughts that I have had deep inside.

I don't know you really,Beth, but I've seen you all over the place...

hey nellie,
i haven't actually read the whole post yet but i had to stop at this line cause it cracked me up!!   :D :D

i read "i've seen you all over the place" as in all over the map, scatter-brained, jumping from here to there, etc.  made me LOL!!   :D :D

now i'll go read the rest of the post.  but thanks for the laugh.   :-* :D :)


Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: jnov on April 04, 2009, 08:08:35 AM
ok, now i've actually read the whole post.  (and i'm still chuckling.)

but thank you.  and i'll give you an update because i think it is funny that you write this post now.

by friday afternoon i was feeling better.  in fact, not just better but really good.  i realized that she was exactly right, i was in control of my life.

so i went back to my counseling sessions and yes, even started that extra, eye thing.  (it is friggin' expensive but ...)  i have been four times now and i feel like i am being deconstructed bit by bit.  like someone is taking a chisel to my bones and knocking off little bits at a time.  painful!!  and leaving me with more questions than answers.  but this last time (yesterday) i was able to express some stuff that i haven't ever been able to before and it felt good.  not during, mind you, but after.

and i am still friends with my friend, although i won't lie, we are not the same friends.  i no longer trust her with anything other than regular, superficial talk.  but over time, hopefully. 

so, yes.  that self-confidence thing.  why is it so hard?  and why do women seem so much affected by the lack of it than men?  i keep thinking what must it be like to grow up knowing that you are valuable, good, worthy of other people's time and attention?  when someone looks at you on the street, what must it be like to think, "they like what they see." and not, "what is wrong with me?  what are they looking at?"  oh, to be one of the lucky ones. 

but there is still time and the past does give me some gifts (reluctantly received as they are).  like compassion, understanding.  stuff like that.

so, THANK YOU nellie for your post.  i love how much i can count on finding support here always.  thank you.   :-* :)

beth



Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Amiennis on April 04, 2009, 07:45:34 PM
so, yes.  that self-confidence thing.  why is it so hard?  and why do women seem so much affected by the lack of it than men?  i keep thinking what must it be like to grow up knowing that you are valuable, good, worthy of other people's time and attention?  when someone looks at you on the street, what must it be like to think, "they like what they see." and not, "what is wrong with me?  what are they looking at?"  oh, to be one of the lucky ones. 

Oh, yes...
Not all men are less affected by lack of confidence than women :-\...
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: jnov on April 05, 2009, 12:17:48 AM
^^^ yeah, i know.  and i knew someone would make this comment.   :)

i find it amazing sometimes how, IMO, the universe sets things in motion or sends certain signals sometimes.

so friday i went through what i did at the counseling session.  and because of it i am feeling better about myself.

then a couple weeks ago i was talking to a friend.  we started talking about religion and whatnot.  i said how the church i am most comfortable with is unitarian universalist but there are no churches of that denomination here in singapore.  she said she had just found out that another woman she knows is part of a UU group who gets together at each other's houses each weekend.

so today i go to the gathering (where i ran into another woman i know through a different group and met a man who i have heard about through a different friend of mine who is friend's with him).  and the topic of the "sermon" was hope and as part of the "service" they had printed out and read a poem by Mary Oliver called Wild Geese.  it is my favorite poem, i have a book of her poems which i keep next to my reading chair and in fact, i have posted that exact poem on this forum a while ago when someone was dealing with a lose (i think).  on second thought i might have posted it in this thread. ??

and the first line of the poem is "you don't have to be good."  the whole poem is about how a person is welcomed into humanity without any preconditions, no judgment, no requirements.

i think the universe is trying to send me a message!!   :D :D :D


Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Miaisland on April 05, 2009, 12:38:10 AM
((((((((((((((((((((((((( Beth )))))))))))))))))))))))

It's so good to hear you're feeling better about yourself! Really good!

I have been thinking about you but was too shy to ask.  ;)

I like the message you got from the universe!

 :) :) :) :) :) :)

Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: lovelyamazing on April 05, 2009, 12:53:02 AM


i find it amazing sometimes how, IMO, the universe sets things in motion or sends certain signals sometimes.

I have the same experience Jnov. I was just reading the posts here and I am happy that you're feeling better.

Quote
and the topic of the "sermon" was hope and as part of the "service" they had printed out and read a poem by Mary Oliver called Wild Geese.  it is my favorite poem, i have a book of her poems which i keep next to my reading chair and in fact, i have posted that exact poem on this forum a while ago when someone was dealing with a lose (i think).  on second thought i might have posted it in this thread. ??

I love this poem.
I'll take the liberty to quote a bit.

"Whoever you are, no matter how lonely,
the world offers itself to your imagination,
calls to you like the wild geese, harsh and exciting —
over and over announcing your place
in the family of things."

I like the idea of the world offering itself.

Quote
and the first line of the poem is "you don't have to be good."  the whole poem is about how a person is welcomed into humanity without any preconditions, no judgment, no requirements.

i think the universe is trying to send me a message!!   :D :D :D



Yes indeed - that makes sense to me. We tune in and receive these messages and that makes a difference to our sense of well being. Sometimes I think it's just a problem with the frequency or being unable to open the channel.

Thank you for sharing your insights.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: jnov on April 05, 2009, 10:49:32 AM
((((((((nellie))))))))

never be shy with me and certainly not here!   :) :)

and i love this:
Quote
I like the idea of the world offering itself.

i really, really like this idea too.  hadn't thought of it in that way before.

if you all don't mind, i'm just gonna quote the whole poem.

Quote
Wild Geese
You do not have to be good.
You do not have to walk on your knees
for a hundred miles through the desert, repenting.
You only have to let the soft animal of your body
      love what it loves.
Tell me about despair, yours, and I will tell you mine.
Meanwhile the world goes on.
Meanwhile the sun and the clear pebbles of the rain
are moving across the landscapes,
over the prairies and the deep trees,
the mountains and the rivers.
Meanwhile the wild geese, high in the clean blue air,
are heading home again.
Whoever you are, no matter how lonely,
the world offers itself to your imagination,
calls to you like the wild geese, harsh and exciting-
over and over announcing your place
in the family of things.
-   Mary Oliver

Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: lovelyamazing on April 06, 2009, 12:20:11 AM

if you all don't mind, i'm just gonna quote the whole poem.


Never enough of this poem, never enough.
thanks :)

And here is one more http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Metro/1170/sleepingforest.htm
Just when you think you can't feel anymore battered and sore, you can just wrap these words around you and heal.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: jnov on April 06, 2009, 12:30:31 AM
sleeping forest - ahhh.

very healing words.  thanks.


Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Sara B on April 06, 2009, 12:57:44 AM
Hello Beth

Haven't talked to you recently - I've just come in at the last couple of pages and I'm so glad things are going in a positive direction for you.  I love both those poems - I didn't know Mary Oliver.  Wild Geese touches something in me and brings tears to my eyes in a way I don't quite understand, like so much of the Brokeback Effect.  No, that's not quite true - I think I do understand those comforting words.

 :) Sara
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Miaisland on April 06, 2009, 01:24:29 AM
Thank you so much (((((((((((((( Beth )))))))))))))) and (((((((((((((((((( Maya ))))))))))))))))))))))))

for those poems.

I didn't know Mary Oliver either. As you say, Sara, Wild Geeze touches something deep inside. So much comfort.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: jnov on April 06, 2009, 09:33:36 AM
hi sara,
always happy to run into you, no matter where.    and miaisland, i can't remember now how i discovered mary oliver but she is wonderful.  and i agree, her words stir something deep inside.  i think it is the connection she must have with nature, with the natural forces in the universe.  her poems always make me want to go walk through the woods.

or maybe through those gorgeous english countrysides!!   ;) :D


Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: mcnell1120 on April 06, 2009, 03:36:11 PM
ok, now i've actually read the whole post.  (and i'm still chuckling.)

but thank you.  and i'll give you an update because i think it is funny that you write this post now.

by friday afternoon i was feeling better.  in fact, not just better but really good.  i realized that she was exactly right, i was in control of my life.

so i went back to my counseling sessions and yes, even started that extra, eye thing.  (it is friggin' expensive but ...)  i have been four times now and i feel like i am being deconstructed bit by bit.  like someone is taking a chisel to my bones and knocking off little bits at a time.  painful!!  and leaving me with more questions than answers.  but this last time (yesterday) i was able to express some stuff that i haven't ever been able to before and it felt good.  not during, mind you, but after.

and i am still friends with my friend, although i won't lie, we are not the same friends.  i no longer trust her with anything other than regular, superficial talk.  but over time, hopefully. 

so, yes.  that self-confidence thing.  why is it so hard?  and why do women seem so much affected by the lack of it than men?  i keep thinking what must it be like to grow up knowing that you are valuable, good, worthy of other people's time and attention?  when someone looks at you on the street, what must it be like to think, "they like what they see." and not, "what is wrong with me?  what are they looking at?"  oh, to be one of the lucky ones. 

but there is still time and the past does give me some gifts (reluctantly received as they are).  like compassion, understanding.  stuff like that.

so, THANK YOU nellie for your post.  i love how much i can count on finding support here always.  thank you.   :-* :)

beth


HURRAY!!! .....lol

you made me smile and after reading that part again about seeing you all over the place, made me laugh too...sometimes I have to be careful how I word things because what I write is how I talk and feel ....hahahhahha......glad it made you chuckle ;D

The good thing about getting over the hump with the self confidence thing...it comes and goes. But when people compliment you and see you for who YOU are...man, that feeling is awesome ...after seeing Brokeback 3 yrs ago and meeting all the great people from here....well,not all but many....the confidence grew for me, I have to say....it's a work in progress I guess.

N   
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: lovelyamazing on April 07, 2009, 03:24:39 AM
There are folks on another thread talking about Mary Oliver  :)

http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=30072.msg1554289#msg1554289

I think we need a thread for her!
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: jnov on April 07, 2009, 04:42:21 AM
a work in progress to be sure.  and i think it is always two steps forward, one step back.  but i guess that is better than one step forward and two steps back!!   ;) :D

and yes, mary oliver.  how fitting that they are using it to help the grieving process over rance and we are using it to help our healing process over here!!
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Desecra on April 22, 2009, 11:45:56 PM
That's a lovely poem.  Thank you for posting it.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: rbrtxvct on May 21, 2009, 12:50:16 PM
Hi, guys:

I'm new here, although I started reading posts back when the movie first came out and this website was created.   Since I am new and don't know how to do this, I am going to write just a few lines and see how this works.   But for starters, this website was recommended to me by my dearest friend, and maybe this will help me out of the dark situation I am presently in.  I am dealing with suicidal thoughts, am in thereapy, but the dark clouds are too overwhelming, and the pain is worse every day-- it's emotional pain which cannot be taken care of with a pill or medication.  I wish there was a pill I could take to remove all this pain.  Maybe talking to you guys will help a little.   I was abused by my brother when I was 9-10 yrs. old, and he was 5 yrs older.   The abuse lasted about a yr.   I am still dealing with it.
Thanks for listening.  I will stop and see if this posting worked.

Raffi
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: BayCityJohn on May 21, 2009, 01:29:14 PM
Hi Raffi

Welcome to the Forum.

Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Sandy on May 21, 2009, 01:43:39 PM
Hi Raffi,

Let me add my welcome.

Sandy
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: rbrtxvct on May 21, 2009, 04:31:26 PM
Thanks, Sandy and BaycityJohn!

Just back from therapy.  Phew!   It was rough!    Trying to deal with this relationship that I've had forever with this guy whom I adore.   That is part of the reason I have landed here in this forum.  The other biggie is having been abused by my brother.   I am trying to figure out how to deal with it, too, and I am getting help, but it's scary to go back and face the reality of what happened.  I have memory lapses about what and how and how long it happened, but it's marked me for life, and I don't know how to deal with the pain.  Last nite was rough.  I started making plans for ending it all.  Sleep took over me and I woke up 6 hours later, feeling like hell.  I think I need a support group, and maybe coming here will help.  Thanks for listening!

R
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Nax on May 22, 2009, 09:28:20 AM
Hiya Raffi

Welcome to our forum, and yes we can be good listeners.   I can't promise we have the answers but sometimes it's just good to let it out.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: jnov on May 22, 2009, 10:13:16 AM
welcome raffi,
as nax said, we are good listeners.  most of us have been through abuse of one kind or another so we understand the pain you are talking about.  we can listen, we can support you but do stay in therapy as we can not give you the professional help you need.

i often use this thread as a way of venting, putting thoughts, emotions and rantings down.  sometimes it helps just to get it all out and, sometimes, the act of writing makes it all come into a different perspective.

at the very least you know that you can come here anytime, day or night and talk to us.  there are people from all over the world here so someone will hear you and we will support you.

i'm glad you found your way here.  i'm more glad that you are in therapy.  stick with it.  also, finding a support group in your real life might be a help as well.  but feel free to come here as you need to.

beth


Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: rbrtxvct on May 22, 2009, 10:28:59 AM
Thanks Beth and Nax:

Good to know there are people out there.   Therapist yesterday recommended a support group.  I told her about finding you guys and she said it was a good thing.  I need to talk to somebody.  therapy is working, but i had a rough nite and this mroning i was back to same feelings.  I get scared sometimes.   Just had another thought of how easy it is to end life.   This is going to be a long week-end.    The last person I needed to hear from this a.m. was my good old bro.   I didn't answer the call.  Heard the message later.    I need to forgive one day at a time, but guys, it is hard when you have all these memories.   I think you guys know what im talking about.
Thanks for listening.

Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: jnov on May 22, 2009, 10:51:56 AM
raffi,
we are here.  you stay here too.


 :)



Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Miaisland on May 22, 2009, 01:26:54 PM
Very welcome Raffi!

Yes we are here.

 :)

Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: rbrtxvct on May 22, 2009, 01:42:07 PM
Thanks, Miaisland.   Good to know there are people there listening.    I am trying to get over this long week-end.   told my therapist I am taking it 24 hrs at a time.  Any advice?    Will this wound ever heal?

R
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Miaisland on May 22, 2009, 02:02:08 PM
Yes, we'll be here or someone will come soon. Hope it can make this weekend easier for you.

Don't have answers to your questions. But I can listen. Many people here are good listeners.

Mia

Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: jnov on May 23, 2009, 12:12:09 AM
hi raffi,
how are you holding up?

about a month or so ago i was complaining to my therapist about how slow the process seemed to be going for me.  she gave me this analogy.

a man is walking down the street.  there is an open manhole in the street.  he falls into it.
next day, the man is walking down the street.  there is an open manhole in the street.  he falls into it.
the next day the man is walking down the street.  he sees the open manhole.  he falls into it.
the next day the man is walking down the street.  he sees the open manhole and says, "there is an open manhole."  he falls into it.
the next day the man is walking down the street.  he sees the open manhole.  he stops walking and says, "there is an open manhole."  he falls into it.
the next day the man is walking down the street.  he sees the open manhole.  he stops walking and says, "there is an open manhole."  he walks around it.
the next day the man is walking down the street.  he sees the open manhole.  he walks around it.
the next day the man is walking down the street.  he sees the open manhole.  he stops walking, looks around and decides he can cross the street to avoid the manhole.
the next day the man decides he can walk on the other side of the street.

the point is, it takes time to see the issue, to recognize the issue, to name and address the issue, to figure out ways to deal differently with the issue, etc.

and the process is very much one of two steps forward, one step back.  it is not linear, it is not necessarily logical and it never goes as fast or as easy as you want it to.  but it does move forward as long as you keep at it.

so keep at it.

and if you live in the U.S., for those long days or nights when you need someone RIGHT NOW try calling 1-800- SUICIDE (784-2433).  if you don't live in the US, look in your yellow pages or go online to find a local suicide hotline.  tape the phone number to your phone so when you are trying desperately to hold on, it is right there for you.

there were times in college when i got so desperate that i would call Dial-A-Prayer just to listen to a human voice.  and i had already rejected the church by that time but it helps to hear a human voice when the knot at the end of your rope is fraying.  it is better to have someone who can listen and help you, like a suicide hotline.  or your therapist.  i'm sure he/she has an emergency contact number.

stay with us.

beth
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: lovelyamazing on May 23, 2009, 12:17:48 AM
Stopping by with hugs for Raffi and Beth
((((((((Hugs)))))))))
Just hang in there.
 :-* :-*
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: jnov on May 23, 2009, 02:44:16 AM
thanks lovely.  i'm doing pretty well right now but hugs are always appreciated!!   :) :-*
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Amiennis on May 23, 2009, 01:04:57 PM
about a month or so ago i was complaining to my therapist about how slow the process seemed to be going for me.  she gave me this analogy.

a man is walking down the street.  there is an open manhole in the street.  he falls into it.
next day, the man is walking down the street.  there is an open manhole in the street.  he falls into it.
the next day the man is walking down the street.  he sees the open manhole.  he falls into it.
the next day the man is walking down the street.  he sees the open manhole and says, "there is an open manhole."  he falls into it.
the next day the man is walking down the street.  he sees the open manhole.  he stops walking and says, "there is an open manhole."  he falls into it.
the next day the man is walking down the street.  he sees the open manhole.  he stops walking and says, "there is an open manhole."  he walks around it.
the next day the man is walking down the street.  he sees the open manhole.  he walks around it.
the next day the man is walking down the street.  he sees the open manhole.  he stops walking, looks around and decides he can cross the street to avoid the manhole.
the next day the man decides he can walk on the other side of the street.

the point is, it takes time to see the issue, to recognize the issue, to name and address the issue, to figure out ways to deal differently with the issue, etc.

and the process is very much one of two steps forward, one step back.  it is not linear, it is not necessarily logical and it never goes as fast or as easy as you want it to.  but it does move forward as long as you keep at it.

so keep at it.

Thank you for this analogy, Beth. I recognise your feelings of "impatience" (and hence, despair, in my case).
This does help, a little.

Marc
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Marz on May 23, 2009, 01:14:54 PM
can everyone please sign the petition for Baby P please

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/2445224/Outrage-at-pitiful-sentences-brfor-abusers-of-Baby-P.html

thank you!
that poor little boy, let down by everyone, it brings me to tears everytime i read anything about the poor baby
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: rbrtxvct on May 23, 2009, 01:58:05 PM
Thank you mia and jnov.    Jnov, the analogy is beautiful.   I had never heard that.   I gues that's where I am right now.  I keep falling in the manhole.  Had a bad nite.   Nightmares-- I hadn't had them in a looooooong time, but they returned.   My bro called and left a message yesterday and that's the last voice I wanted to hear.   It's hard to forgive and forget, especially when you have been made fun of by that same person.   I went out to help a little at this rest home to serve meals for lunch.   I am glad I got out-- I even sang some of the patriotic songs.   Funny how singing can help as you are crying on the inside.   Well, it's been 24 hrs and I am still here.   

Thanks again for listening, guys.

Raffi
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Miaisland on May 23, 2009, 11:16:29 PM
So good to hear from you!

(((((((((((((((((((((((((((( Raffi ))))))))))))))))))))))))

Sending my warmest thoughts.

Mia

Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: michaelflanagansf on May 24, 2009, 05:08:55 PM
Raffi, I would encourage you to remember that every day is a victory.  And that you are in therapy is a victory as well.  It must be very difficult to have an abuser in your family - mine was not and when I left the rural area that I grew up in I left a lot of my animosity and anger at him behind.  I'm very, very sorry that you have such a close (that is familial) relationship with your abuser and can only commiserate as to how difficult that must be.

But I would remind you that you are not him and the degree to which he continues to upset you is an exercise of his control over you - I hope that you can find the ability to shatter this control so that he no longer is of any consequence to you.  Is there any possibility that you can move away from where he is?

Also remember that suicidal thoughts are a manifestation of your anger at him turned inward.  You are not responsible for what he did to you and you have a right to be angry with him.  I would encourage you to focus on that anger.  Because anger is seen as a 'negative' emotion we don't often talk about what healing power anger can give.  But in this case I encourage you to feel your anger and write about it if you can.

I don't often say this, because it is a strange sentiment, but I am often grateful to the people who did and said homophobic things to me when I was growing up - because they caused me to focus on my anger and that helped me to move on from pain which was turned inward.

The clearest thing I can say to you is that you are not responsible for your problem.  Suicidal thoughts are another victory for your enemy.  Do not allow him to win.  You are worth more than that.

In love (and the power of anger),

mf
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: CellarDweller115 on May 24, 2009, 06:44:21 PM
Fantastic post, Michael!  I so agree with what you say.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: dejavu on May 24, 2009, 07:38:21 PM
But I would remind you that you are not him and the degree to which he continues to upset you is an exercise of his control over you - I hope that you can find the ability to shatter this control so that he no longer is of any consequence to you.  Is there any possibility that you can move away from where he is?

Raffi, I want to express my support for you, too.  And Michael, you say many wise things in your post.

I've never posted about this, but I was once the victim of an abusive relationship, although I was a young adult and the relationship was much different than yours.  But the person tried to be totally controlling of my life (and of other people's lives as well).  Words like control, power, intimidation come to mind.  What I had to do to get out of the situation concerned "shattering this control so that he no longer is of any consequence to you," as Michael puts it.  

It involved putting up an emotional curtain between myself and the other person.  I stopped giving him truthful reports of what I was doing in my life, because he would always turn the information around to his own advantage as a way of getting to me (and take pleasure in laughing at me).  I even had to give him false information at times, just to keep him from learning anything else about my life, to make that boundary clearer.  I had to overcome some regrets that I could not invite him to some special ceremonies that I was part of, because I knew that would just bring him closer again, and I knew that would have negative consequences.  Eventually, after he called my house and threatened to kill me if I ever hung up on him again (probably saying that just to make himself feel good, probably he wouldn't have done anything, but I had had enough) I decided that that was the last time I would ever talk to him.  

So...I decided that if I never answered his calls, I wouldn't ever have to hang up on him.  I took the words of his threat and turned them around into my own solution.  I got a new second phone number, left the old number connected but with no phone plugged in (so that he wouldn't find out that I had changed my number, because that would have aggravated him for sure), and I just "disappeared" from his life.  Eventually he must have given up, because I've never heard from him again and it's been many years.

Raffi, I know it's much harder to get away from a relative, but if your brother continues to torment you and make fun of you, you may not be able to put the past behind unless you do completely get him out of your life.  And it's within your power to do that, if necessary.  And even if you can't completely avoid him at family functions, keep trying to remember Michael's words and tell yourself how meaningless he is to you, when you see him.  You are better than he is, so don't let him bring you down.

Good luck with all of this, Raffi.  And keep coming here to get whatever support you need.  

Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: huntinbuddy on May 24, 2009, 07:42:11 PM
Fantastic post, Michael!  I so agree with what you say.
Raffi, Michael couldn't have said it better.  I don't come over to this thread all that often, but probably need to be more aware of who is here.  You will find much support here and in other areas of this forum....we are all here to help.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: michaelflanagansf on May 24, 2009, 08:48:53 PM
So...I decided that if I never answered his calls, I wouldn't ever have to hang up on him.  I took the words of his threat and turned them around into my own solution.  I got a new second phone number, left the old number connected but with no phone plugged in (so that he wouldn't find out that I had changed my number, because that would have aggravated him for sure), and I just "disappeared" from his life.  Eventually he must have given up, because I've never heard from him again and it's been many years.

Debbie you were very wise to do this.  People who are obsessed like this often won't take no for an answer - and you have to find a way to get out of their control.  They do not deserve your consideration in the least.  And that includes family members who have been abusive.

In the end you need to take care of yourself - not because you are the only one who will (although sadly that is sometimes the case) but because you know what is best for you.

You deserved it - Raffi deserves it.  We all do.  The degree to which you are passive in the face of this sort of thing gives them control.  It is not however your fault, because people who are involved in this sort of abuse often make us feel that we cannot do anything without them - and that we cannot get away from them.

It's in your own interest to do whatever you can (within the law, of course) to get out of their control.  Think of yourself as being in a similar sort of situation to an abused spouse - because there isn't a whole lot of difference.  Do whatever you can to take care of yourself.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: jnov on May 25, 2009, 02:51:19 AM
michael, that was a great post.  and you are so right to talk about the anger, and about the power of anger directed at the right person to be healing.

we have a right to be angry at the person who abused us, whomever that is.  they deserve our anger and we deserve to be angry.  how you funnel that anger into action is another step, but debbie, you figured this step out beautifully.  it would never have occurred to me to keep the original phone number but just leave it "untapped."  that is brilliant!!  talk about taking your power back!   :D

raffi, remember what michael said.  every day is a victory, every time you go to counseling it is a victory, every time you don't answer that phone call from your brother, and don't listen to his message, is a victory.  you deserve these victories.  keep going.

beth
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Miaisland on May 25, 2009, 04:14:05 AM

Raffi, I want to express my support for you, too.  And Michael, you say many wise things in your post.

I've never posted about this, but I was once the victim of an abusive relationship, although I was a young adult and the relationship was much different than yours.  But the person tried to be totally controlling of my life (and of other people's lives as well).  Words like control, power, intimidation come to mind.  What I had to do to get out of the situation concerned "shattering this control so that he no longer is of any consequence to you," as Michael puts it.  

It involved putting up an emotional curtain between myself and the other person.  I stopped giving him truthful reports of what I was doing in my life, because he would always turn the information around to his own advantage as a way of getting to me (and take pleasure in laughing at me).  I even had to give him false information at times, just to keep him from learning anything else about my life, to make that boundary clearer. I had to overcome some regrets that I could not invite him to some special ceremonies that I was part of, because I knew that would just bring him closer again, and I knew that would have negative consequences.  Eventually, after he called my house and threatened to kill me if I ever hung up on him again (probably saying that just to make himself feel good, probably he wouldn't have done anything, but I had had enough) I decided that that was the last time I would ever talk to him.  

So...I decided that if I never answered his calls, I wouldn't ever have to hang up on him.  I took the words of his threat and turned them around into my own solution.  I got a new second phone number, left the old number connected but with no phone plugged in (so that he wouldn't find out that I had changed my number, because that would have aggravated him for sure), and I just "disappeared" from his life.  Eventually he must have given up, because I've never heard from him again and it's been many years.

Raffi, I know it's much harder to get away from a relative, but if your brother continues to torment you and make fun of you, you may not be able to put the past behind unless you do completely get him out of your life.  And it's within your power to do that, if necessary.  And even if you can't completely avoid him at family functions, keep trying to remember Michael's words and tell yourself how meaningless he is to you, when you see him.  You are better than he is, so don't let him bring you down.

Good luck with all of this, Raffi.  And keep coming here to get whatever support you need.  


Oh (((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((( Debbie ))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

I didn't know.... So sorry you had to go through this.

How you dealt with it, how you managed to put up boundaries, was so good to hear. Thank you so much for posting this.

Love!

Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Miaisland on May 25, 2009, 04:16:59 AM
Thinking about you very much ((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((( Raffi ))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))




Thank you ((((((((((((((((((((((((((( Michael )))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

and

((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((( Beth ))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

for your posts! Meant more to me than I can express...



Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: jnov on May 25, 2009, 06:34:39 AM
i was out to dinner tonight at one of the local hawker stalls (street dining) and we had leftovers.  the leftover container they gave us has jokes and other funny stuff written on it.  and then there was this: 

Freedom is what you do with what's been done to you.  - Jean Paul Sartre

it made me think of everyone here and the freedom we are all striving for.  i liked it.   :)
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: dejavu on May 25, 2009, 09:35:31 AM
Debbie you were very wise to do this.  People who are obsessed like this often won't take no for an answer - and you have to find a way to get out of their control.  They do not deserve your consideration in the least.  And that includes family members who have been abusive.

Oh (((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((( Debbie ))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

I didn't know.... So sorry you had to go through this.
How you dealt with it, how you managed to put up boundaries, was so good to hear. Thank you so much for posting this.
Love!

Thanks for your understanding, (((((((((((((Beth))))))))))) and ((((((((((((Mia)))))))))))))

I only talk about it now because I hope it might help Raffi and others in a similar situation.
Good luck!
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: rbrtxvct on May 25, 2009, 10:39:23 AM
Thank you, Michael,Huntin, dejavu, cellar, and all the rest of you.
This has been a rough week-end.   Living by myself is not good sometimes when you have these terrible thots.    Yes, anger is my big problem, and I am trying to deal with it, because I have seen what it does to people.   I am far away from the abuser, so the only way I hear his voice is on the telephone.  The abuse happened when I was 9 or 10, and all these yrs I have been waiting for acknowledgement on his part that what he did was wrong.  Ever since it happened I've had sort of a split personality where sometimes I don't know who or what I am sexually.   Having heard him make fun of me in the presence of others didn't help, especially when you are a child and you have no defensive mechanisms.   You go with what they say about you, that's it.   And to hear my own dad make fun of me several times during my childhood and teen yrs was devastating.   I found myself trying to prove them both wrong.   I married when I shouldn't have, and I have done things that I shouldn't have done, just to prove to the world that I was not what they were saying about me.   I am trying to come to terms with my split personality issues, and one side tells me I am gay, and the other tells me I am str8.   I don't know who or what I am.   This has also led to an addictive relationship, and I have become that person, rather than being me.   I know all this sounds so complicated, but bear with me, plz.   This is not easy to talk about.   So, not being able to be with the person I love b/c society has said no, and I followed what was "expected" of me, has landed me into this state of wanting to end it all, b/c I have no hope in getting anywhere.   I sleep a lot, and it feels good for a few hrs.   I often think, wouldn't it be wonderful to go to sleep and never wake up again?   
Yes, I am very angry at me, the world, the decisions I made to satisfy eerybody else but me, and now I have nothing, nothing, nothing.  I see other people moving on, but I am sutck and have been stuck in this situation, and don't seem to find an answer other than going to sleep for a very long time.   I anger I broke several dishes last Sat.  I smashed them on the sink.   I kept saying, I AM ANGRY!  And then I realized how stupid of me, b/c there was no one else here to pick up the broken dishes! How stupid, right?    Anyway, I made it through Sat. and Sunday.  Let's see if I make it through today.

Thanks for listening, guys!

R
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: nagsheadsea412 on May 25, 2009, 03:44:30 PM
RBRT...sorry, don't know the rest....no matter what you said, you sound good and sane.  Anything is possible then....I have a mentally ill brother who is 56...graduated from Penn State. was super smart, but could never handle a job...he lives in a bedsit on meager disability but never complains.....he loves words and writing, doesn't have a car, takes buses....worries about totally mindless things......it's genetic..I counted about 13 people in our family thru the ages who are either bi-polar or depressive...they are the outcasts...yet not alot is done for them...but Hilary Clinton takes over a $500 million dollar check to Gaza for something the Israelis have destroyed...we should become isolationists for a while and take care of our own country's needs.....I sympathize greatly though for your pain...life sometimes isn't easy to get through...but just sometimes there are singular joyous moments
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: michaelflanagansf on May 25, 2009, 04:23:44 PM
rbrt, I wanted to clarify something.  I was not suggesting that you should be angry at yourself.  You should be angry at the person who abused you - he is the person who put you in this situation.  However anger is a volatile emotion by its very nature, so don't be too surprised if in working out your anger you get more broken dishes.  Take a long term perspective on this - in the long run if you feel better a few broken dishes are a small price to pay.  Please try not to be so hard on yourself.

I'm glad to hear you've moved away from your brother.  As far as waiting for acknowledgment of what he did, I'm afraid you will probably have to push that - he's probably not going to say anything about this without confrontation.  I would talk to your therapist and see whether or not that is a good idea or not.

Regarding the abuse it doesn't matter whether or not you consider yourself straight or gay, and I would encourage you not to beat yourself up about this.  There will be time enough for you to think about that after you heal.  No one who is a caring person would push you into any kind of decision about this and I would encourage you to be kind enough to yourself not to push yourself.

I do understand that this is not easy to talk about.  I would encourage you to do whatever you can to be kind to yourself - take yourself out to dinner, go for a walk in a garden, read a book, go see a movie, take a hot bath - do the sorts of things that reinforce for you that life is worth living.  Trust me, it is.

Glad to see you back here.  There are lots of nonjudgmental people who will listen to you here.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: jnov on May 26, 2009, 01:41:15 AM
raffi,
like michael (sorry michael, i seem to be riding your coat tails these days, hope you don't mind  :)), the first thing i noticed in your post was this:

Quote
Yes, I am very angry at me, the world, the decisions I made

nowhere in this list are the people you have a right to be angry with - your brother and father.  be angry at them.  not at you.  you have done nothing wrong.

and:
Quote
In anger I broke several dishes last Sat.  I smashed them on the sink.   I kept saying, I AM ANGRY!  And then I realized how stupid of me, b/c there was no one else here to pick up the broken dishes! How stupid, right?

no!!  it is NOT stupid.  you are not stupid.  break the damn dishes.  yell, scream, rip a few pillows, do whatever gets the anger out (without hurting yourself or anyone else).  it is not stupid to be angry or to release that anger.  but remember, you are angry at your brother and father because they are the wrongdoers - not you!  you have done nothing wrong - including those decisions you made.  they were not stupid.  they were what they were.

as for:
Quote
all these yrs I have been waiting for acknowledgement on his part that what he did was wrong.
he may never give you this acknowledgement.  but that doesn't mean he didn't do anything wrong.  you can acknowledge it for yourself.  tell him what he did wrong.  tell him directly or not.  write him a letter and send it or rip it up.  scream it at him in the privacy of your house or into the wind.  whatever you and your therapist decides is best for you. 

keep working with your therapist.  keep getting out of bed at some point each day. 

you are a good person. 
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: dejavu on May 26, 2009, 01:36:52 PM
as for:
Quote
all these yrs I have been waiting for acknowledgement on his part that what he did was wrong.
he may never give you this acknowledgement.  but that doesn't mean he didn't do anything wrong.  you can acknowledge it for yourself.  tell him what he did wrong.  tell him directly or not.  write him a letter and send it or rip it up.  scream it at him in the privacy of your house or into the wind.  whatever you and your therapist decides is best for you. 

keep working with your therapist.  keep getting out of bed at some point each day. 

you are a good person. 

I was thinking much the same this morning, Beth. 

Raffi, I agree that you may never get this acknowledgement, and you may be better off without the confrontation that would be required for you to try to get it.  I didn't realize, when I first tried to answer you, that you no longer see your brother in person.  Maybe, in some way, you are still answering his phone calls or listening to his messages because you are still hoping for him to acknowledge what he did to you? 

If you could find some way to cut off communications completely so that his phone calls could no longer bother you, you would know that there would be no possibility of this acknowledgement, but you might also be able to say, "There!  I'm free of him, and what he does (and did) no longer matters to me at all."  At the same time, maybe you could do as Beth suggests and acknowledge it for yourself, to yourself, to your therapist, screaming or writing or breaking dishes or whatever it takes, until the anger you feel for your brother is no longer eating away at you on the inside and making you feel badly about yourself.

Easier said than done, but keep trying, and reaching out to people who care about you or can help.  Your therapist is really important to you at this point.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: rbrtxvct on May 27, 2009, 11:09:55 AM
Thank you, Ang, Michael, jnov, and deja:

thank you for caring to write such moving responses.   I feel like I know you guys.   It's good to be able to unload.   Michael, what a beautiful advice!   Thank you, my friend.  I know I shouldn't be angry at me, but I have made some choices in my life that now, looking back on them, cause me to be angry at me.  Long story....
'Been reading a lot about abuse, and the more I read, the more I realize why I am such a mess!    Therapy is helping.  I don't have another meeting until Friday, and I can't wait.  I am taking one day at a time.   Was in bed until 10 this morning.  Depression makes me want to just sleep.   Having to break up a long relationship (longer than you would think) is also hard to deal with.   Not a good thing when you have all these issues.  It's enough to drive you crazy.   As far as my bro is concerned, his power over me has been so overwhelming all these yrs, that is hard to get rid of it, no matter how far he is.  I have to pretend everything is OK when he visits with his family.   If they only knew!   When they leave I am good for nothing.  Yes, I realize he is never going to acknowledge it, and he acts like it never happened.  Well, I know it happened, damn it, and the nightmarish feelings still keep coming back when I least expect it.  But as I said, therapy is going to help, I think, it just takes a long time, as Michael pointed out.  As far as the sexual identity issue, I have decided that I need to stay away from getting in any kind of relationship, be it with a male or female for a long while.   I need to discover who and what I am, and then go with it.   
Guys, thank you for all your words.   Keep giving me hope, of which I have very little nowadays.

Raffi
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: jnov on May 28, 2009, 02:00:21 AM
friday is getting closer.  hang in there. 

time for a group hug!!

(http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s36/somh/icons/grouphug.gif)

 :) :)

Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: rbrtxvct on May 28, 2009, 11:22:04 AM
Jnov:

Yes, Friday is tomorrow, and THEN the week-end sets in.  It's the time I fear the most.  But, I'm going to therapy tomorrow, so I may get some tips on hw to deal with the alone issue on week-ends.   

Thanks for the hugs!   I haven't had one since I don't remember when.   I sure need one!

Love ya!

Raffi
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: rbrtxvct on May 28, 2009, 02:15:23 PM
Hey, Guys! 

It's me, again.  Can someone suggest a place in this forum for people like me who are trying to deal with sexual identity, not knowing if ur gay or bi, etc.   Also, any support on coming out, etc.

Thanks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Raffi
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: michaelflanagansf on May 28, 2009, 02:49:31 PM
 Thank you, my friend.  I know I shouldn't be angry at me, but I have made some choices in my life that now, looking back on them, cause me to be angry at me.  Long story....

It's probably cold comfort Raffi, but everyone has choices in their past that they have made which make them upset with themselves.  But one of the things that I needed to get my head around when I dealt with similar issues is that you really can't do anything about that, and it often distracts you from what you can do in your life right now.  I'm sure this is something you've thought of as well, but it's sometimes helpful to mention these sorts of things.

'Been reading a lot about abuse, and the more I read, the more I realize why I am such a mess!    Therapy is helping.  I don't have another meeting until Friday, and I can't wait.  I am taking one day at a time.   Was in bed until 10 this morning.  Depression makes me want to just sleep. 

Two things - one is that it's great to hear you are looking forward to your therapy session on Friday - it's good news to have something to look forward to.  And a comment about depression - it does all kinds of weird things to your head regarding anger - and it also screws up your time perception as well.  So it's not a big surprise that you get angry and smash dishes.  I used to get angry at panhandlers in the street and the homeless.  It is all out of proportion and doesn't make any rational sense.  And because it screws up your time perception the current moment becomes overbearing and crushing and you cannot see past today.  It's one of the really cruel things about depression - because if you could just see past today you would realize that nothing stays the same and that your life will change - it's inevitable. 


Having to break up a long relationship (longer than you would think) is also hard to deal with. {snip}  As far as the sexual identity issue, I have decided that I need to stay away from getting in any kind of relationship, be it with a male or female for a long while.   I need to discover who and what I am, and then go with it. 

That you did break up the relationship and that you have made a decision to give yourself a break regarding the sexual identity issue show that you are making decisions with your own well being in mind and that you are making good choices.  Another reason to give yourself kudos and to realize that you are making progress.

But as I said, therapy is going to help, I think, it just takes a long time, as Michael pointed out.   
Guys, thank you for all your words.   Keep giving me hope, of which I have very little nowadays.

Raffi

The depression blocks the notion of hope - so things that you would normally be hopeful for don't seem too hopeful when you are depressed.  But you've made changes in your life, you're making wise decisions and you've found a group of people to talk to.  So though it may not seem hopeful at the moment I would just encourage you to hold on and realize that you have things going for you.

All I can tell you is that it can get better.

Michael
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: michaelflanagansf on May 28, 2009, 03:05:35 PM
Hey, Guys! 

It's me, again.  Can someone suggest a place in this forum for people like me who are trying to deal with sexual identity, not knowing if ur gay or bi, etc.   Also, any support on coming out, etc.

Thanks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Raffi

There is something that is close to that here - the 'Why am I gay?' thread - in which everyone (straight, gay, bi) talk about sexual identity.  You could have a look - it's here:

http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=309.0

There is a bisexual thread (which is in the archive section, but I think you can still post there) which is here:

http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=2414.0

About.com has some sections in it about sexual identity (please excuse that it's in the gay teens section):

http://gayteens.about.com/lr/sexual_orientation/412852/4/

Here, for example, is a post from their forum:

http://gayteens.about.com/b/2009/02/20/from-the-forum-i-dont-know-what-my-sexual-orientation-is.htm

You might want to ask for pointers there as well.

Centerlink: The LGBT Centers page might have some suggestions for you as well:

http://www.lgbtcenters.org/site/PageServer

There is a list of centers here:

http://resources.lgbtcenters.org/Directory/Find-A-Center.aspx

Since you are dealing with mental health issues as well you might be able to get a good resource for your area from nami.org:

http://www.nami.org/

Hope this helps!

Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: rbrtxvct on May 28, 2009, 03:36:29 PM
Michael:

Thanks for your advice.   Yes, I know how depression can cloud up everything.   I keep saying, nothing matters, nothing matters.    God, I can't wait to talk about all this tomorrow with my therapist.   Oh, I need to clarify-- I have not broken the relationship yes, but I am in the dilemma of what to do, because I know there is no hope in going back with this person-- Ive been told in no uncertain terms that it can never be the way it was, so what to do?   I love this person with every fibre in me, but I have been told, no, so I have to take another route.   I am so afraid of letting go.  This is part of my life for the past....... years, and it's too much part of me and who I am.   Ever been there?   How can you break away from the person you have loved almost forever?   Oh, well, that's another issue to dea with.  No wonder I'm a mess!   
Thanks also for the different forums to go to.   I will try the first one you suggested and see wat I can find there.  I am very confused as to what or who I am.   The abuse happened early in my life, so that added to my sexual identity formation.  Anyway, thanks for all your help.   

Raffi
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: jnov on May 29, 2009, 03:07:16 AM
raffi,
just a reminder that therapy, dealing with abuse issues, figuring yourself out, these things take time.  and not a couple of months time but months and months, possibly years.  not that you will be static during that time but don't expect, or try to force, any answers or clarity for a while.
you had mentioned in an earlier post that you thought you might just let the sexual identity issue be dormant for the time being. 
getting information is mostly a good thing but don't think that you have to figure anything out anytime soon.
"i don't know" has become my catch-phrase for many, many things!!   :D :D

beth
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: rbrtxvct on May 29, 2009, 10:41:17 AM
dear jnov:

thanks for our reply.  you people are wonderful.  Just came back from therapy.  phew  !!!!!  Lots to deal with.   Yes, she said the same thing about the sexual identity issue-- we're gonna get to that, but not yet.  first, the relationship that i need to let go for my own sanity.  this relationship and the abuse both marked me for life.   One happened early in life, and the other in late teens early 20's.   Hard to give up.  it's like an alcoholic who must quit drinking or else.  Was given good advice.   When something "triggers" a  memory I need to get away from it somehow, do something, go out, go for a walk, say NO, try to think of something else.  It's like addiction to alcohol.  It's not easy because I've been relating to this person for so many years, like an alcoholic who has been drinking for years, and now has to say no to a drink whenever the tempation comes up.  I need to move on and think of something else, because if I don't this will continue to consume me.  The abuse is similar, b/c i get so many memories that get triggered in so  many ways, and I must deal with it, except i don't know how.  Can't deny it ever happened, but what do i do in order to get past that point.  I know, I know, it will take time, and maybe years, as you say.  Both are related, b/c the abuse created a question in my mind if I am gay, and the relationship accentuated it.   I've been married, but I was not honest to confront these issues and put them behind me, not realizing that they would rear their heads sometime in my life, and it happened.   So, here I am, trying to deal with something painful having to let go of the person I have loved for so long, and the fact that someone used his power over me when I couldn't say no.
It's good to "talk" to you.   thanks for listening.

R
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Miaisland on May 30, 2009, 04:41:26 PM
Sorry that I have a long way to go, that I don't know how to put the words.

I am still thinking about you very much...

(((((((((((((((((((((((((((((( Raffi )))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: jnov on June 05, 2009, 11:48:27 PM
hey raffi,
how are you holding up??


Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: rbrtxvct on June 08, 2009, 10:50:36 AM
Hey, Beth!   thanks for asking.   I've had a so-so week, trying to make it through.   I ordered "The Black Swan."   It will prolly get here in a cpl days.   I am going to thereapy today.  She was gone for a week, so I am crawling up the wall!   I have read and re-read your posts and messages and those of Michael and Mia.   You guys are so nice.   there was a program on "depression" on PBS last week-   I haven't seen it yet, but will today.
Thanks for thinking of me.  I am also trying to decide how to let go of my love and write a letter and what to say.  Aug. 9th is going to be very hard for me this year.   'Been thinking about the "sexual issue, " and I think it's agood suggestion.   I'll share wiith my therapist today.   Have been reading in some of the sites that Micahel suggested.   All of this is helping.   
Shalom, love and blessings.

Raffi
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: jnov on June 08, 2009, 12:38:48 PM
you sound better.  glad you are moving forward.
i am leaving for the states in 4 hours so i am happy.  although i'll be happier when the flight is behind me!
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: rbrtxvct on June 08, 2009, 02:43:26 PM
Beth:

Hope you make it home ok.   Didn't know you were out of the states.   I visited Israel last year, (a dream come true), but loved getting back home. 
I feel a little better.  Hve been exercising (brisk 45 min. walk) in the evening.  Foolowed your advise on trying to stay "in the now" while I walk.  thanks!

Raffi
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Miaisland on June 08, 2009, 02:54:48 PM
(((((((((((((((((((((((Raffi))))))))))))))))))))))

How good to hear from you! And to hear you do feel a little better.

 :-*
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Miaisland on June 08, 2009, 02:55:29 PM
Safe and pleasant journey

(((((((((((((((((((((((((Beth)))))))))))))))))))))))

 :-*
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: rbrtxvct on June 08, 2009, 05:27:23 PM
Hello, Mia:

thanks for ur message.  Just came back from therapy.   Phewwwww!   So much to work on.  Too many issues!   I  need to be patient.   I'll be going back on Wed., so that's good.  It will make up for not being able to meet all last week.   So many questions, so many things to work on!   'Been told not to ruxh into any major decisions at this point.  I am too confused and panicky.   I tend to get that way in the middle of a criisis, and this is a major one.  I was told I will get through this.  I asked, are you sure?  yes, was the answer.   You guys are good, b/c a lot of what I heard today was similar to your advice.   So, keep it up, friends!   I'm glad you are helping other people, too.
Beth, hope you made it home OK.  It's always good to be home.
Love you all,

Raffi
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: michaelflanagansf on June 09, 2009, 12:21:40 AM
^^^  Good for you!  And I understand that the being patient part can be hard - you want and need change, but can't quite reach it.  The good news is that if you feel that there are issues to work on and you're getting impatient at least part of you feels that you will get through this - even if you are not consciously aware of it yet.

And yes - no need to rush into anything.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: jnov on June 09, 2009, 09:25:51 PM
i am home, safe and sound. and tired!!  thanks.   :-*


Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: rbrtxvct on June 10, 2009, 01:10:19 PM
Good to know you are home and safe.  It's always good to be home, isn't it?

Raffi
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: jnov on June 12, 2009, 04:43:46 PM
good and crazy busy!!!
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: rbrtxvct on June 13, 2009, 10:43:38 AM
Good morning, Beth:

Just to let you know I ordered "The Black Swan."  Waiting anxiously for it to arrive.

Raffi
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: jnov on June 15, 2009, 11:18:26 AM
i hope it is helpful, even if only in bits and pieces.

i was talking to my sister earlier today about someone else we both know who has started counseling about 8 months ago.  my sister said this other person said, "the end is in sight" and i thought to myself, "well, good for you but not even close!"

but that's ok.  if that thought keeps the person going and makes them feel good about progress made so far, good for them.

how are you doing raffi?  have you figured out a way to get those annoying telephone messages from your brother to stop?
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: rbrtxvct on June 19, 2009, 11:48:10 AM
Beth:

Did you get my reply?

Raffi
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: jnov on June 21, 2009, 10:43:23 AM
i don't think so?  was it a PM or the post above my post??
 ??? ???

Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: rbrtxvct on June 22, 2009, 01:06:00 PM
Beth:

I replied to your message, but I don't see it here.  Don't know where it went.

Anyway, I'm doing so so today.   Pain has come back  Had a bad morning.  Don't seem to be able  to get past the hurdle.  I take two steps forward and one back.   The book is helping, though.   

Thanks,

R
 
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: jnov on June 22, 2009, 03:04:40 PM
just remember, it is two steps forward and one back which means you are making progress.  slow though it may feel at times.  have faith in yourself and on those days when that is not possible have faith in your therapist!!

stay in the fight.  you win every day you stay in it.


Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: rbrtxvct on June 24, 2009, 05:12:14 PM
Thnks for the advice.  Interesting-- the therapist made the same remark about the two steps, etc. , that at least I was moving.  You guys are right on target.

R
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Amiennis on June 24, 2009, 05:24:53 PM
just remember, it is two steps forward and one back which means you are making progress.  slow though it may feel at times.  have faith in yourself and on those days when that is not possible have faith in your therapist!!

stay in the fight.  you win every day you stay in it.

Very much so... personally, I can't hear this enough.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: fritzkep on June 24, 2009, 05:30:08 PM
Keep fighting and winning, ((((((((((((((((((((Marc)))))))))))))))))))))))))

Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Miaisland on June 25, 2009, 09:41:46 AM
(((((((((((((((((((((((((((Marc))))))))))))))))))))))))))

 :-* :-* :-* :-*
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Amiennis on June 26, 2009, 10:22:54 AM
I wasn't fishing, but thanks (((guys))).
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Miaisland on June 04, 2010, 03:12:40 PM
I am deeply upset.

Reading a series of articles in the morning paper about adult bullying. Partly about workplace bullying. I am paralyzed.

Finally someone that understand the depth of it all. That puts words to it.

I wish I could talk about this.

Maybe I could in a while, now that what happened to me is being acknowledged. This is the first time that happens. Through a series of articles.

How could I ever describe the fear? How could I describe how what happened to me changed my life? How it changed me?

Will I ever be healed? :'( :'( :'(



Has anyone read "The No Asshole Rule. Building a Civilized Workplace and Surviving One That Isn't" by Robert I Sutton?

Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: jnov on June 04, 2010, 10:52:13 PM
hi mia,
i haven't read the article.

i just wanted to say that you can talk about it.  here as a start and to other people.  by talking about it you take your power back.  you can use the article to start a conversation. 

a big hug to you.  you can talk to us.
beth
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Miaisland on June 05, 2010, 06:46:13 AM
Thank you Beth!

A big ((((((hug)))))) back to you!

”The No Asshole Rule” is a book. It was mentioned in one of the articles. I have to get it.

If I only knew where to start talking…

The situation is much too complex, (former) friends of mine involved and as I found my way to make myself a place within the system that did this to me/that allowed this to happen and managed to do a job that got both appreciated and acknowledged it became even worse. It didn’t stop until I had isolated myself from the community. As I have now.

And I am not the only one that has been victimized by this system or by this director. Others were diagnosed with post traumatic stress and will never return to any kind f work.

What we have in common is that we were deeply engaged in what we worked with, that we really wanted to achieve something without focus on advantages for ourselves and that we got acknowledged and appreciated for it. In this article series that is now published in Sweden’s leading morning paper I recognize us.

Today I read that in France and Belgium the term ‘harcèlement moral’ is used instead of bullying. It is a crime since 2002. If we had been French the director, my boss, would risk up to a year in prison and paying up to 15 000 euro in damages for what she did to me.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Miaisland on June 05, 2010, 06:51:39 AM
The term Haracèlement moral (moral harassment I guess) comes from a book with the same name by psychoanalyst Marie-France Hirigoyen.  In English “Stalking the soul. Emotional abuse and the erosion of identity".

Must read that one too.

http://www.webheights.net/GrowingbeyondEmotionalAbuse/hirigoyen/sts.htm (http://www.webheights.net/GrowingbeyondEmotionalAbuse/hirigoyen/sts.htm)

"In this groundbreaking account -- already an international bestseller -- Dr. Marie-France Hirigoyen lays bare the destructive "hidden" phenomenon of emotional abuse. She argues that while emotional abuse is not as visible as physical abuse, it is equally violent -- and perhaps even more widespread. It is a crime whose aim is, she says, "a virtual murder of the soul."

Emotional abuse exists all around us -- in couples, in families, and in the workplace. But in an age where moral and behavioral standards are not absolute, society turns a blind eye to this insidious form of violence, tacitly condoning conduct that is both dangerous and perverse.

Illustrating her points with gripping case histories from her own therapeutic practice, plus popular examples ranging from the films of Hitchcock to the personal life of Einstein and the works of Ovid, Kafka, and Freud, Hirigoyen analyzes the psychology of abusers and their victims as well as the dynamic between them. She breaks down the stages of emotional abuse, a process that begins with seduction and brainwashing and culminates in an open violence that sweeps the victim into a vortex of destruction. Finally, she offers practical advice on how to break free of abuse's vicious hold.

Stalking the Soul is a call to recognize and understand emotional abuse and, most importantly, to overcome it. Sophisticated yet wholly accessible, this landmark account is vital reading for health professionals and victims of abuse, as well as for the concerned public. In 1995 Daniel Goleman showed the world that emotions shape our intelligence. Today Marie-France Hirigoyen shows that emotions shape our entire being -- indeed, our very soul.
[from the inside flaps]"



Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: jnov on June 05, 2010, 07:19:15 AM
i used to work in juvenile court, abuse/neglect, and emotional abuse was absolutely the hardest to deal with from a legal viewpoint because it is so hard to define and prove.  that book sounds like an important read, i put it on my to-read list.

the worst thing i encountered with emotional abuse is that the person being abused comes to believe that he/she deserves to be treated as such.  it can indeed shape the whole of our being.

i'm sorry you had to experience this trauma.  and even more sorry that you feel (felt) that you had no one to share your experience with and/or no one to support you while you were going through it.  to me the feeling of isolation makes the abuse so much more horrible.

but at least here you know you are not alone.  we may not have experienced the same type of abuse but we all understand the pain, the trauma, the long lasting effects it has on our lives.

stay strong and we are here to listen and support you.
hugs.
beth
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Miaisland on June 05, 2010, 02:49:09 PM
Oh Beth! Your work in juvenile court must have been the hardest. I can’t even imagine….

In France when ‘moral harassment’ (workplace bullying as we would call it here) became a crime I read that the cases had to be divided between different courts, different people, because it was so painful for them to follow. After reading about the cases in the articles I can understand that, emotional torture I would say. Also considering how our identity and value as human beings is connected to work.

Oh how I recognize the panic and the fright I read about. The feeling of isolation is horrible. I think that the isolation is the sign of a successful bullying. That the bully wanted to cause the isolation all the time.

What hurts the most I think is the people standing next to this, the people that saw it happening, even friends I tried to talk to while it happened that just saw it happening, that didn’t help or stand up for me even if they knew what was happening.

And of course the way one starts to believe that it is what one deserves is the worse. That is one of the ways that makes the bullying successful.

I do have hopes because of these articles. Maybe this will be a help for me to talk about it.

Thank you for listening (((((Beth)))))
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Miaisland on June 05, 2010, 05:24:42 PM
Since then and for long periods afterwards I have slept near the door with my coat on. I didn't understand it until now.

I did so to be ready to flee, I was always ready to flee.....

I think I still am.....
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: jnov on June 05, 2010, 11:15:41 PM
i have a friend here whose then 6th grader was being bullied in school.  he wouldn't say anything about it and it took her a long time to figure out what was going on.  she finally got him to admit to it when she found him sleeping in the closet huddled in a corner.  and he is not a slight boy but taller than most of his classmates.  turns out he was being bullied by an 8th grader who didn't like the fact that this boy was a better swimmer than him on the swim team!!

when she brought it to the attention of the principal, he brought in the bully who immediately confessed to everything.  so the principal was gonna let it all drop because the boy was "honest" about it!  can you imagine.  no consequences just because he confessed!!  luckily she convinced the principal otherwise and he did face consequences.

but when it happens as an adult, with friends around who see it but do nothing .... 

this situation i think shows the important of public conversation about these issues.  it brings it out into the open, allows people to talk about it, provides a vehicle for those who have been effected to begin a conversation.

i am so glad you found those articles.  and that they were printed!
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Miaisland on June 06, 2010, 06:53:52 AM
That is terrible. What a good thing your friend could convince the principal that there would be consequences for the bully.

The stories I could tell you from the schools in this municipality…. Over and over again the school inspection finds serious flaws in the work against bullying and emotional abuse. Principals, school director and politicians are breaking the law.

Maybe I should add that I worked for the school organization here when this happened to me. The school director is the boss I talked about. Friends of mine saw this happen as co-workers in the project group I worked in or closely connected to the project as politicians.

These articles will make a difference I think. For the situations in the schools too. We all know that it is adults that teach kids to bully. What I read is spinning in my head, mostly about the described cases, victims that show the same symptoms as victims of war and torture. I also think about people being around, seeing what is happening without saying or doing anything. These harder times at our workplaces is good times for the bullies, I read. 30 years ago it wouldn’t happen without people standing up for each other. Silence seems to be better than risking becoming the next victim at work.

I am hoping that it will be possible to start talking about these issues, to talk about adult bullying and emotional abuse at work places. It seems the abuse isn’t isolated, the workplace bully is a bully and abuser in other parts of his/her life too. So the abusive boss can be an abusive spouse, parent, friend….

I can’t wait for the next article in the series tomorrow on “How the Swedish authorities sabotages the law”.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Miaisland on August 20, 2010, 12:45:32 PM
Two days ago I met her.... I think I made some kind of smile as I said hello. I am not really sure.

My stomach was in an uproar. I am still in an uproar.

I so hope that one day I will be able to leave it all behind. To be able to meet her and not care....

And to stop call her satan..... To think of her as a person of no imprtance, of no power.....

I am not there yet.

Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: jnov on August 21, 2010, 05:55:48 AM
mia,
you've started on the path of healing so you have already reduced her power.  one step at a time.  just keep your focus on you and give yourself some compassion.   you'll get there.   
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Sason on August 21, 2010, 03:53:48 PM
I've been reading back in this thread recently.

I'm in awe of what's been happening here.

The friendship, love, compassion, reaching out to each other, and healing that has taken place in this thread makes me humble.

Reading this thread has been like a journey from horror to hope.  Awesome.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Sason on August 21, 2010, 04:06:00 PM
Mia, I'm sure you'll be able to ignore this person one day.

Maybe you should seek professional help?

I think a good therapist could be of real help for you.

I know from personal very harsh experience what it's like to have a boss who is a psychopath.
It cost me my job, but in the long run it was for the best because I have a much better job today.
But it took a long time to get over the psychological trauma of the bullying and harassment I suffered,
and only with the help of a therapist. I also had very strong support from some of my coworkers, and that really made all the difference. It helped me to not lose it completely.

I really hope you'll be able to get over it one day too.

Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: desertrat on August 23, 2010, 03:47:40 AM
dear mia, i feel with you. i wish i could give you a better report, but i'm not sure. even now, 15 years after i suffered abuse from my ex-boyfriend, and even now, that i'm happily married and a generally happy women, there are some things that i guess i will never get over:
- when i leave the house i need to be properly dressed, groomed and generally good looking. i do have this nightmare of looking ugly and just then meeting him or his wife, feeling all small and vulnerable. i need an "aura" of beauty and success around me as an armour against him. i'm afraid that he will see me and think (or even worse, say) that i lost. that one can see my life is worth nothing without him (all things he told me when we were together).
- when i met them last year, about exactly a year ago, it took weeks for me to get over it. still today, i'm going over every second of that meeting. did i look good? did i look happy and successful? what did i say? how did it sound? what were my gestures?

i guess it will never stop. i think of it as an success when i manage not to let it rule my life. but ever having a relaxed meeting with him or his wife? i don't think so.  :-\
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: mcnell1120 on August 26, 2010, 01:51:42 PM
Thanks Beth and Nax:

Good to know there are people out there.   Therapist yesterday recommended a support group.  I told her about finding you guys and she said it was a good thing.  I need to talk to somebody.  therapy is working, but i had a rough nite and this mroning i was back to same feelings.  I get scared sometimes.   Just had another thought of how easy it is to end life.   This is going to be a long week-end.    The last person I needed to hear from this a.m. was my good old bro.   I didn't answer the call.  Heard the message later.    I need to forgive one day at a time, but guys, it is hard when you have all these memories.   I think you guys know what im talking about.
Thanks for listening.



Hi Raffi......welcome to this wonderful Forum.

I understand where you are coming from....I understand the pain and that feeling of ending it all...I too had such feelings...it's been years and years since then,but at times I feel like it resurfaces...it takes time of talking,of living a good life...of allowing yourself happiness and convincing yourself that you had nothing to do with it, it wasn't your fault..you couldn't prevent it from happening....you couldn't stop it....

my heart goes out to you and please REMEMBER every time you feel down and lonely...come in here...read...PM...know that this is a passing thought, and that it WILL GET BETTER....this will NEVER happen to you again....and with each day you WILL FEEL BETTER and be able to put it all aside and not feel like a prisoner any longer...you will feel happiness....I promise

Nellie
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Miaisland on August 28, 2010, 12:53:48 AM
mia,
you've started on the path of healing so you have already reduced her power.  one step at a time.  just keep your focus on you and give yourself some compassion.   you'll get there.   

I hope so. Thank you so much for being here ((((((Beth)))))) !

It means a lot!
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Miaisland on August 28, 2010, 01:00:36 AM
Mia, I'm sure you'll be able to ignore this person one day.

Maybe you should seek professional help?

I think a good therapist could be of real help for you.

I know from personal very harsh experience what it's like to have a boss who is a psychopath.
It cost me my job, but in the long run it was for the best because I have a much better job today.
But it took a long time to get over the psychological trauma of the bullying and harassment I suffered,
and only with the help of a therapist. I also had very strong support from some of my coworkers, and that really made all the difference. It helped me to not lose it completely.

I really hope you'll be able to get over it one day too.



Thank you. I'll see what kind of help I could get. Thw three hours professional help I got from the employer when it happened was like a joke.

I am so sorry you had to go through that. What a good thing you had coworkers who supported you.

The artiicles I talked about has been really good. Suddenly it became possible to talk about it.

If you haven't seen them, here's a link to one.

http://www.dn.se/kultur-noje/nyheter/varst-for-dig-sjalv-var-heder-har-inget-pris-1.1118148 (http://www.dn.se/kultur-noje/nyheter/varst-for-dig-sjalv-var-heder-har-inget-pris-1.1118148)


Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Miaisland on August 28, 2010, 01:34:48 AM
dear mia, i feel with you. i wish i could give you a better report, but i'm not sure. even now, 15 years after i suffered abuse from my ex-boyfriend, and even now, that i'm happily married and a generally happy women, there are some things that i guess i will never get over:
- when i leave the house i need to be properly dressed, groomed and generally good looking. i do have this nightmare of looking ugly and just then meeting him or his wife, feeling all small and vulnerable. i need an "aura" of beauty and success around me as an armour against him. i'm afraid that he will see me and think (or even worse, say) that i lost. that one can see my life is worth nothing without him (all things he told me when we were together).
- when i met them last year, about exactly a year ago, it took weeks for me to get over it. still today, i'm going over every second of that meeting. did i look good? did i look happy and successful? what did i say? how did it sound? what were my gestures?

i guess it will never stop. i think of it as an success when i manage not to let it rule my life. but ever having a relaxed meeting with him or his wife? i don't think so.  :-\

Oh Martina!

I am so sorry you still have to live with it like this. So very sorry. After all these years.

((((((((((Martina))))))))) !!

Two weeks ago I went to a restaurant here. For the first time in ages. I really avoid this small town as much as possible. And the coworker I used to call satan passed our table on the way out. I don't understand how I managed to say hello back and do something smile-like with my face. I am going through the moment again and again just the way you talk about, the way you are still doing...

I regret answering her.

At one point, only a few month after the project finished she came to our restaurant as a guest. It was a really good day for me. It was more than an aura of success. It was one of the best moments in my life. I had a truly great artisit on stage, a wonderful audience and was looking fantastic. One of my jobs was to greet every guest as they arrived and as she approached me I had no problems smiling.... But when she passed the limit and touched me to give me a hug it was as if she slapped me. It was like physical violence. I backed quickly and a friend told me afterwards that I looked disgusted.

I wish I could reach a point where I could just ignore her.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: tonydude on August 28, 2010, 01:19:05 PM
  Am not on this thread very often, so, please forgive me in advance if I miss any responses.  Abuse of any kind is loathesome.  And psychological abuse is often resistant to treatment or just finding peace.
  Even so, many psychologists recommend for those who have a strong ethical background, that they externalize the damage by physical responses:  hitting a punching bag, taking a martial arts course, defiantly pursuing physical fitness (by running, walking, bicycling, swimming, etc.).
  The abusers leave a chemical toxin in your body, from the flight-or-fight syndrome.  That poison can be released by fighting, although, for those of us who are non-violent, rough physical activity can ethically substitute.

  It's also important not to feel inferior or superior to the abuser.  That can be a trap.  Just define them, fully and finally, as toxic, and look for people who are not.  Above all, don't feel bad if others don't see the abuser as a freak.  People don't always have the time to identify the creeps, and even when they do, don't want any conflict.  Try to accept that as part of the frailty of being human, and don't let the condemnation of the one spread to a grievance against the many.

  Finally, be on guard against satisfaction when the abuser falls (and they will).  It may take many years, but sooner or later, they will meet their match, which is the harshness of life itself.  Don't gloat, as that, too, is a trap.  If you rejoice in the downfall of an abuser, you are still having some connection with them.  It's OK, of course, to have some satisfaction at seeing justice, but then, look away.  To be truly free.....they must mean nothing to you, anymore.
  None of this is easy.  We all experience abuse at some point in our life.  I have, of course, as well.  But I believe the above is the right journey, and I hope we all make it through. I do wish peace and hope to everyone who has posted here.  And hope you heal up a little more each day.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Sason on September 04, 2010, 12:26:05 PM
Thank you. I'll see what kind of help I could get. Thw three hours professional help I got from the employer when it happened was like a joke.

I am so sorry you had to go through that. What a good thing you had coworkers who supported you.

The artiicles I talked about has been really good. Suddenly it became possible to talk about it.

If you haven't seen them, here's a link to one.

http://www.dn.se/kultur-noje/nyheter/varst-for-dig-sjalv-var-heder-har-inget-pris-1.1118148 (http://www.dn.se/kultur-noje/nyheter/varst-for-dig-sjalv-var-heder-har-inget-pris-1.1118148)




Three hours!! That really is a joke.

I'm sorry you didn't get more help than that at the time.
But it isn't too late. I'm sure you can find a good therapist. 
After suffering something like that, you really need proffessional help to reestablish your self esteem.

Thanks for the link, I'll look into it when I get the time.

Sydsvenskan ran a series of articles on psychopathic bosses some years ago.
I don't think all of them are available online, but here are two links:

http://www.sydsvenskan.se/ekonomi/article35653/Psykopatiska-chefer---brEnsam-har-du-inte-en-chans.html

http://www.sydsvenskan.se/ekonomi/article36706/Ny-metod-ska-avsloja-farlig-chef.html
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: fritzkep on September 04, 2010, 12:35:39 PM
Wise words indeed, Tony.

Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Miaisland on September 04, 2010, 11:45:55 PM
Three hours!! That really is a joke.

I'm sorry you didn't get more help than that at the time.
But it isn't too late. I'm sure you can find a good therapist. 
After suffering something like that, you really need proffessional help to reestablish your self esteem.

Thanks for the link, I'll look into it when I get the time.

Sydsvenskan ran a series of articles on psychopathic bosses some years ago.
I don't think all of them are available online, but here are two links:

http://www.sydsvenskan.se/ekonomi/article35653/Psykopatiska-chefer---brEnsam-har-du-inte-en-chans.html

http://www.sydsvenskan.se/ekonomi/article36706/Ny-metod-ska-avsloja-farlig-chef.html

The articles are really worth reading. They made a huge impact up here, I mean that people really talk about them and about the subject.

Thank you for the links, strangely I already read them when I found them on the internet some years ago.

Thank you for your kind words.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Miaisland on September 04, 2010, 11:46:50 PM
Wise words indeed, Tony.



^^^^

What Fritz said.

You are so right, Tony.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Miaisland on September 30, 2010, 07:31:48 PM
There is another thing that is really hard to handle. It seems as since I got bullied at this workplace I became some kind of 'bully magnet'. These last years it happened a few times. Sometimes I think it has just been circumstantial and because I have been vulnerable. But sometimes I have met people that have been really mean, picking on me even.

I am talking about typical bullying, like things going on behind my back, I have afterwards heard how the strangest things have been spread about me, maybe also to people that I don't know so well and in ways that I have no possibility to defend myself against. There have also been techniques to rule like double punishments - so that no matter how hard I try nothing seem to be right. Like if I try to stay away that is just as wrong as if I try to keep in touch, impossible situations like that. (I hope this makes sense)

It seems almost like I invite this to happen. And when it does I have lost my tools for dealing with it. The bullying changed me. The way I have been dealing with these situations has been to close myself in and all my focus and energy has been directed to survive the moment until I found a safe environment again. I have never been that introvert or handling problems like this in other situations or earlier in life.

I recently took some contacts and have some help now, or some support to find ways to deal with what I went through and to deal with things that happened afterwards too. I think I am on my way. It will take time though.

Does anyone recognize this feeling of becoming a 'bully magnet'? This is not only my perception of what has happened even if I of course am more sensitive and vulnerable now, after being bullied at that workplace. Can I be encouraging this kind of behavior somehow? Is it so that it has happened before but that I then had ways to stop it from affecting me?

I think I have lost my instincts and have no clue how to find them.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: CellarDweller115 on September 30, 2010, 07:36:28 PM
I am talking about typical bullying, like things going on behind my back, I have afterwards heard how the strangest things have been spread about me, maybe also to people that I don't know so well and in ways that I have no possibility to defend myself against.

Hiya Mia....

I wouldn't call the quote above "bullying"....I think it would fall under the name of gossip, but that doesn't mean it's any less damaging.

I can say I've had people gossip about me at the workplace (it got back to me) and online as well.

I handle it by turning a deaf ear to it.  If someone asks me directly, I will answer it.  My real friends know me so that the gossip won't affect how they feel about me.  If people decide to not get to know me because of something they heard, I don't need them in my life anyway.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Miaisland on September 30, 2010, 07:49:26 PM
No, Chuck, I am talking about bullying.

Gossip isn't meant to damage in this way.

When I worked with girls bullying in schools this way of doing things behind someones back is usually the first thing that happens.

And when it is bullying and not ordinary gossip there is no way to defend oneself against it. It is meant to destroy someones social life.

And often in combination with double punishments too. And silent treatments.

Of course when one gets hurt and it is not bullying one can choose not to listen or care and move on.

When it is bullying it is not so. Not if the bullying is successful.

I am sorry I expressed this so bad.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: desertrat on October 01, 2010, 01:27:45 AM
mia, i think you are right about the "bully magnet" it seems that there is a kind of personality that "invites" others to "use" you. they feel unhappy and powerless themselves and feel that there is somebody even "weaker" than they are - somebody where they can channel their own frustration to. it is a cycle that i can not understand - how could it possible make me any happier to see that somebody else is suffering even more? when i'm unhappy, i want to be among happy people so their happiness rubs off on me...but i guess this are simply different ways of dealing with a problem.
this resonates so much in me because i've just seen a situation like this develop in my own life - a colleague who started to do something like that to me, taking my harmony and peace loving personality as weakness and trying to draw strength by trying to weaken me. fortunately, i have the feeling that i have the necessary tools to avoid that and it seems that things have improved quickly. let's see ;)

please, really do get help! you really need some training in avoiding and getting rid of such people. i'm sure you'll get there eventually, but get somebody to help you and to get you up when you feel down. it is a spiral that turns and turns - with every bully you get lower down, inviting even more bullies....but i'm sure you'll get out there, you ARE a wonderful, strong woman! *huuuuuuuuggggg & loooooove*  :)
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: jnov on October 01, 2010, 02:51:19 AM
hi mia,
i think martina is right about the cycle.  bullies are experts at picking out the vulnerable and insecure in a crowd.  and of course once you have been bullied, it weakens your own self-esteem so you are more vulnerable to future bullies.

you have already started on your own road to recovery by talking about what has happened to you and reaching out for help in many ways.  keep that up, continue to reach out for help both professionally and socially.  try to find even just one or two good friends in your life that you can reach out to for support and strength whenever you need it.

eventually you will re-learn the tools you need to rebuild your self-esteem and remember your own self-worth.  and when that happens you will be much less attractive to the bullies and much better at standing up to them.  it will take some time but it will happen.

and remember we are all here for you.
beth
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Miaisland on October 01, 2010, 03:27:37 AM
mia, i think you are right about the "bully magnet" it seems that there is a kind of personality that "invites" others to "use" you. they feel unhappy and powerless themselves and feel that there is somebody even "weaker" than they are - somebody where they can channel their own frustration to. it is a cycle that i can not understand - how could it possible make me any happier to see that somebody else is suffering even more? when i'm unhappy, i want to be among happy people so their happiness rubs off on me...but i guess this are simply different ways of dealing with a problem.

This is really hard to understand for me too. And I am absolutely sure you are right, this is a different way to deal with problems, probably big personal issues. In some cases I think it is almost like a question of life or death to eliminate someone that seem to be a threat - to a position or role or in some other way. Maybe it is a way to to survive in an envirement or a situation at the cost of someone else. Maybe it is a game these people are playing.

Maybe it is impossible to understand.

Quote
this resonates so much in me because i've just seen a situation like this develop in my own life - a colleague who started to do something like that to me, taking my harmony and peace loving personality as weakness and trying to draw strength by trying to weaken me. fortunately, i have the feeling that i have the necessary tools to avoid that and it seems that things have improved quickly. let's see ;)

I am so sorry this is happening to you. I know you have the knowledge and the tools to deal with it. But please be careful. Make sure to have someone who can be there with you, who can see what is happening and help you to make the right choices. I am saying this because when the bullying started for me I was absolutely certain I could deal with it. In a way I saw it happening and thought I could deal with it on my own. That was my mistake. Also that I at some extent trusted the wrong person. These processes are really complicated matters. When I realized iit was much more complicated than I ever could imagint and that other people were drawn into it all it was already too late.

Nothing like this had happened to me before. I hardly knew work place bullying existed. I was almost 50, confident, competent and strong. I wish I had seeked some kind of support instead of believing I could deal with it myself. I am not saying it has to be like this for you. Just be careful.

Quote
please, really do get help! you really need some training in avoiding and getting rid of such people. i'm sure you'll get there eventually, but get somebody to help you and to get you up when you feel down. it is a spiral that turns and turns - with every bully you get lower down, inviting even more bullies....but i'm sure you'll get out there, you ARE a wonderful, strong woman! *huuuuuuuuggggg & loooooove*  :)

Thank you for saying this and for understanding. It means a lot to me. I am there, Martina. I am diagnised with post traumatic stress and am getting help now. You are right that it is like a spiral. Thank you for being here. You are a wonderful woman.

Big hugs and love to you!!!! :-*

Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: CellarDweller115 on October 01, 2010, 03:32:51 AM
When I worked with girls bullying in schools this way of doing things behind someones back is usually the first thing that happens.

And when it is bullying and not ordinary gossip there is no way to defend oneself against it. It is meant to destroy someones social life.

And often in combination with double punishments too. And silent treatments.

You didn't express it badly, I misunderstood.

You're not talking about simple talking, you mean that actual actions and plans are set in motion behind someone else's back.

That is bullying, and cowardly as well. 
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Miaisland on October 01, 2010, 03:43:31 AM
hi mia,
i think martina is right about the cycle.  bullies are experts at picking out the vulnerable and insecure in a crowd.  and of course once you have been bullied, it weakens your own self-esteem so you are more vulnerable to future bullies.

you have already started on your own road to recovery by talking about what has happened to you and reaching out for help in many ways.  keep that up, continue to reach out for help both professionally and socially.  try to find even just one or two good friends in your life that you can reach out to for support and strength whenever you need it.

eventually you will re-learn the tools you need to rebuild your self-esteem and remember your own self-worth.  and when that happens you will be much less attractive to the bullies and much better at standing up to them.  it will take some time but it will happen.

and remember we are all here for you.
beth

Thank you for being here, Beth! And for believing in me. You are and have been of such a good help and support.

The key to recovery is talking about it. I am sure you are right about that. It is not easy, much much harder than I understood before. It is so much to get over before finding courage to really talk. Like the feeling of not being worth to take up space by talking about it, sort of as this wasn't so bad after all and that so many people has been going through so much worse things... And also how strange it all sounds, impossible to understand and too complicated. From the outside the solutions seem to be so easy. It's just to leave or to say this or that...

When I read about other cases of bullying at work I realized this is something that all victims of this feels. How the hardest integrity rape can seem to be no big deal at all. How a lot of what has happened has happened behind ones back. I read about one woman had collegues that made faces and gestures behind her back for years. She just noticed something was different but didn't know or understand what and slowly lost all self asteem and started to get sick. It made it a little easier to read about what has happened to others.

I will keep on talking about this. As you say I need to re-learn and to be better at standing up to them. I have started to talk. Thank you for being a part in that.

((((((Beth))))))))

Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Miaisland on October 01, 2010, 03:45:05 AM
You didn't express it badly, I misunderstood.

You're not talking about simple talking, you mean that actual actions and plans are set in motion behind someone else's back.

That is bullying, and cowardly as well. 

Yes that is what I meant.

I think gossip can be hard too. But actions as you say is bullying. And cowardly.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: All4one on October 01, 2010, 10:07:26 AM
My question: where are the good people?
 
For bad behavior to flourish there must be some tacit assent.
You've seen the bumper sticker: Mean People Suck

Well, they really do.  Those who don't actively participate, but fail to confront, or challenge, are bad too.


Le Vase brisé

Le vase où meurt cette verveine
D’un coup d’éventail fut fêlé ;
Le coup dut l’effleurer à peine :
Aucun bruit ne l’a révélé.
 
Mais la légère meurtrissure,
Mordant le cristal chaque jour,
D’une marche invisible et sûre,
En a fait lentement le tour.
 
Son eau fraîche a fui goutte à goutte,
Le suc des fleurs s’est épuisé ;
Personne encore ne s’en doute,
N’y touchez pas, il est brisé.
 
Souvent aussi la main qu’on aime,
Effleurant le cœur, le meurtrit ;
Puis le cœur se fend de lui-même,
La fleur de son amour périt ;
 
Toujours intact aux yeux du monde,
Il sent croître et pleurer tout bas
Sa blessure fine et profonde ;
Il est brisé, n’y touchez pas.


Sully PRUDHOMME
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: All4one on October 01, 2010, 10:14:54 AM
Sorry for the interruption. I took a moment to look for a translation to copy. I know the poem is about the hurt from a romantic love, but the hurt - even casually inflicted - and the resulting pain are similar.

The Broken Vase 

The vase where this verbena is dying
was cracked by a blow from a fan.
It must have barely brushed it,
for it made no sound.

But the slight wound,
biting into the crystal day by day,
surely, invisibly crept
slowly all around it.

The clear water leaked out drop by drop.
The flowers' sap was exhausted.
Still no one suspected anything.
Don't touch! It's broken.

Thus often does the hand we love,
barely touching the heart, wound it.
Then the heart cracks by itself
and the flower of its love dies.

Still intact in the eyes of the world,
it feels its wound, narrow and deep,
grow and softly cry.
It's broken. Don't touch!
 
 
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: dejavu on October 01, 2010, 11:23:31 AM
The key to recovery is talking about it. I am sure you are right about that. It is not easy, much much harder than I understood before. It is so much to get over before finding courage to really talk. Like the feeling of not being worth to take up space by talking about it, sort of as this wasn't so bad after all and that so many people has been going through so much worse things... And also how strange it all sounds, impossible to understand and too complicated. From the outside the solutions seem to be so easy. It's just to leave or to say this or that...


(((Mia)))

It's really important to talk about these things and find people you feel safe about talking to.  I'm glad you're finding the right path and starting to feel more confident.

All the best to you!   :-*
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Miaisland on October 01, 2010, 01:24:35 PM
You are such a good friend (((((Debbie)))))

Thank you so much for caring.  :-*
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Miaisland on October 01, 2010, 01:29:20 PM
My question: where are the good people?
 
For bad behavior to flourish there must be some tacit assent.
You've seen the bumper sticker: Mean People Suck

Well, they really do.  Those who don't actively participate, but fail to confront, or challenge, are bad too.


Maybe that is what hurts the most. The people standing by the side, watching, seeing what happens....

Thank you for posting the poem.

It expressed it so well, I think.

Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Sason on October 01, 2010, 02:32:31 PM
((( Mia ))), I really hope you'll get the help you need!!

As others have said, it's a good thing you've started talking about it, that's the first step to healing.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Miaisland on October 02, 2010, 08:12:06 AM
Thank you (((Sonja)))

It will take some time to find out if the support/help will work.

You know...

Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Miaisland on October 15, 2010, 08:51:21 AM
Just have to share this....

I mentioned the director/the boss as involved in what happened to me, as a reason and a part in the bullying.

Yesterday the big lokal news in the morning paper was that she got fired- And payed off to leave at once. In the discussions afterwards and also implied in yesterdays and todays articles others have been victimized too.

It's such a relief.

And maybe, maybe I will be able to talk more openly about what happened to me now.

Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Sandy on October 15, 2010, 12:20:18 PM
Mia,

That must take a heavy burden off your shoulders. I hope that, at the right time and after the dust settles, you will be able to discuss it more fully with others.

Best wishes,

Sandy
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Miaisland on October 16, 2010, 04:13:17 AM
Thank you Sandy!

I am slowly realizing what a big thing this is for me.

It can really lead to changes.... I believe it can.


Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: jnov on October 18, 2010, 03:39:19 AM
mia,
very interesting turn of events.  glad she finally got called out on it!

beth
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Miaisland on October 18, 2010, 05:05:20 AM
I really didn't expect this....

It has already opened doors for me start to talk about it. And to begin to understand a little better too.

It is good.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Sara B on October 18, 2010, 05:35:23 AM
Mia, I meant to respond to this before. It must be a great relief to have this, sort of, validation of your experience.  I so hope it will be a way forward for you - I'm sure it will be.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: MaineGirl on October 24, 2010, 02:59:42 PM
(((((((((((((((((((Mia)))))))))))))))))))))

It has taken me a long time to get here, but I have been wanting to say some things to you here as we have talked about bullying, you and I, and it's so very important for you to talk openly about it.

First, though, to everyone who has posted here my heart goes out to all of you, to anyone who has suffered abuse of any kind from another.  

I want to add to the others here who have responded to you already and who have said so much and said it so well.  My heart goes out to you for having to go through this now.  I can understand how these articles brought all the bullying back to you, and brought into sharp focus once again the aftereffects of that bullying, and brought back the intense feelings associated with those experiences.  The effects of abuse like this, although we might be able to manage on some level to shove them aside for a time and trudge on with our lives, never leave us and only come back again and again if we don't deal with them.  The self-doubting remains and affects our thoughts about other things.

I know you know this already, but I have found this to be true, having experienced workplace abuse and bullying of a sort in my last job.  I finally found a way to leave that job, but not before I had come to wonder whether I actually deserved a better job and wondering also if I could ever be, or had ever been, good enough at what I do to even deserve THAT job, or the new one to which I was going.  Most of all I wondered if I could ever feel valued again as a professional or if I could ever feel that I had something of value to offer my profession.  That is the nature of bullying, it is designed to make you doubt yourself and to give up all your power.  

Luckily I found myself in a great new job with supportive and trusting administrators who valued me professionally and simply believed that I was good at what I do.  I finally started to believe it too.  It went a long way towards healing the wounds from the previous workplace.  However, I am sorry that I never sought professional help in dealing with the emotional affects of the bullying because I find myself back in the position of dealing with (very subtle, but nevertheless just as horrible) workplace bullying once again.  This is why I am writing this story here, because I understand completely how it can all come flooding back.  I see it happening to me now too.

The articles that you wrote about must have given you some validation..  Validated for you that what you experienced was NOT your fault and that you are not alone, that you have never been alone in this.  Although it is easy to feel that way when the bullying is meant to isolate you and succeeds, especially when others see it and don't come to your assistance.  You are not alone, not now.  Please know that.

I am really glad that you have decided to talk here, decided that it is okay to talk about it now, and that you are getting the kind of help that you need.  It's most important that you talk and get help, the first and biggest steps in recovering from something like this.  You need to reclaim your voice, your inner strength, and your power.  I know you can.

Big Hugs for you, Mia, and love, and courage, and strength.

Please, keep talking...  
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: MaineGirl on October 24, 2010, 03:02:08 PM
Just have to share this....

I mentioned the director/the boss as involved in what happened to me, as a reason and a part in the bullying.

Yesterday the big lokal news in the morning paper was that she got fired- And payed off to leave at once. In the discussions afterwards and also implied in yesterdays and todays articles others have been victimized too.

It's such a relief.

And maybe, maybe I will be able to talk more openly about what happened to me now.

I know this must be a HUGE relief to you, to know that now her actions are public knowledge.  I do hope that it enables you to talk more openly now about what happened to you.

((((((((((((((((Mia))))))))))))))
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Miaisland on October 24, 2010, 07:19:38 PM
Oh (((((((((((((((((Sue)))))))))))))))

Thank you for coming here, for your so wise post. Thank you for talking here about your situation and about the importance of dealing with what has happened and not just shove it aside. Maybe it would have been different, for you and me both, if we had sought professional help sooner. But I am sure it isn't too late to do so... 

I am hoping that the counselor I am now seeing will be of help for me to move on. And to be better equipped to deal with similar processes if they appear again in life... And to be able to move on. I also think that talking openly here has been a good thing for me,

You too need - and deserve - real help to deal with what is happening to you now, both to deal with it practically, like contacts with the union and talks with collegues being treated like you, and also to deal with the emotional affects.

For me, as you know, I had our business all the time, and I knew that this project was limited in time. I think that that made it easier to get through the days and to find my ways to still do a good job and make myself as independent as possible from the boss and the bully collegue. It would have been very different if it was my steady job and not a project I think.

Thank you for your encouragement and your trust in me. It means a lot. As I'm sure that you know. I can't begin to express the importance of having a friend like you by the side while processing thoughts and emotions like these...  The talks we have had about these issues has been so importan, has meant so much for me.

No, I am not alone in experiencing this.

Neither are you.

Strength and love and hope for you

Let's keep talking!
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Miaisland on October 24, 2010, 07:25:38 PM
Thank you ((((((((Sara and Sue)))))))

Since the boss got fired and left our municipality it has been such a big difference. I feel this is a big step towards moving on.


Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: jnov on December 25, 2010, 01:09:05 AM
a happy holiday season to everyone here.  i hope this last year brought peace and joy to you all and the next year brings continued laughter and love.

love to you all,
beth
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: jnov on January 05, 2011, 08:58:20 AM
i just watched this amazing video (about 20 minutes long) and thought of everyone here.  this thread has been quiet for a while, hopefully that is a good sign, but i thought i'd link it here anyway just in case it is meaningful for anyone else here.

http://www.ted.com/talks/brene_brown_on_vulnerability.html?utm_source=newsletter_weekly_2011-01-04&utm_campaign=newsletter_weekly&utm_medium=email

Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Sason on January 05, 2011, 10:14:36 AM
^^^^^^^^^^^

That's a most inspiring and insightful lecture. Somehow it goes hand in hand with the BBM experience, I think.

Thanks for posting it Beth.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: jnov on January 05, 2011, 11:45:04 PM
glad you liked it.   :)
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Miaisland on January 06, 2011, 02:36:05 AM
i just watched this amazing video (about 20 minutes long) and thought of everyone here.  this thread has been quiet for a while, hopefully that is a good sign, but i thought i'd link it here anyway just in case it is meaningful for anyone else here.

http://www.ted.com/talks/brene_brown_on_vulnerability.html?utm_source=newsletter_weekly_2011-01-04&utm_campaign=newsletter_weekly&utm_medium=email



Oh (((Beth))))

The deepest meaning.... Already listened to it the second time. Thank you so much.  :-*

And let's hope the silence in here is a good sign. A sign of healing.

Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: jnov on January 06, 2011, 07:36:47 AM
healing indeed!
a blessed year and joy to everyone. 

hugs to you mia.
 :)
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Miaisland on January 06, 2011, 08:16:50 AM
Thank you dear Beth.

A blessed year and joy to you too.

And to everyone here. :)
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: MaineGirl on January 10, 2011, 09:38:47 PM
i just watched this amazing video (about 20 minutes long) and thought of everyone here.  this thread has been quiet for a while, hopefully that is a good sign, but i thought i'd link it here anyway just in case it is meaningful for anyone else here.

http://www.ted.com/talks/brene_brown_on_vulnerability.html?utm_source=newsletter_weekly_2011-01-04&utm_campaign=newsletter_weekly&utm_medium=email



Thank you ((((Beth))))

I just listened and will listen again.

Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: MaineGirl on January 10, 2011, 09:40:07 PM
Oh (((Beth))))

The deepest meaning.... Already listened to it the second time. Thank you so much.  :-*

And let's hope the silence in here is a good sign. A sign of healing.




((((Mia)))))) 

Let's hope that the silence here is a sign of healing.




and to everyone here, healing and blessings in the new year.

Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: lovelyamazing on January 25, 2011, 08:32:05 PM
i just watched this amazing video (about 20 minutes long) and thought of everyone here.  this thread has been quiet for a while, hopefully that is a good sign, but i thought i'd link it here anyway just in case it is meaningful for anyone else here.

http://www.ted.com/talks/brene_brown_on_vulnerability.html?utm_source=newsletter_weekly_2011-01-04&utm_campaign=newsletter_weekly&utm_medium=email



Thank you Beth. I'm watching this now and I'll share it on Facebook. I know a lot of people would like it.
Happy 2011 to you and everyone here.
Hugs  :-*
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: jnov on January 26, 2011, 01:01:37 AM
i'm glad you liked it.  :)
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: cfmedic12 on March 13, 2011, 11:07:57 PM
I am wondering if anyone could help/make a suggestion or two. I am living in close quarters with a str8 male (four months). we're both soldiers. Last week we got drunk, i made a move and he turned away. He's angry with me. I have told I was sorry that I thought what I was doing was appropriate. He does not want to talk with me about it. what do I do? ask me any questions you want publicly or privately TY.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Lyle (Mooska) on March 14, 2011, 06:44:58 PM
Welcome to the forum, cf!

I was wonndering why you chose to ask this question in the Surviving Abuse etc. thread?

I don't know if you wrote enough about what happened for me to answer your question.
Are you an American soldier or in another country?  Even if the soldier in question says he is
straight, he might not be in the U.S. miitary.  You could still get kicked out otherwise, or at
least face some unwanted trouble.  I'd say if he doesn't want to talk about it, just let him
alone.  He may bring it up later to you.  Maybe you might talk to another confidant.  I don't
know your situation exactly.

The forum has a "New Members--Introduce Yourselves Here" thread.  You might post
there and a forum moderator might direct you to some threads where you could start up
a conversation about this.  They might know better than I where that would be appropriate.

There's a lot of U.S. members, but also members all over the world on every continent, so
keep posting!  Well, I guess we don't have any Antarctic members that I know of!

Welcome cf. 
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: cfmedic12 on March 14, 2011, 07:14:41 PM
thanks Lyle. I guess I thought it was the most appropriate forum. There's more to the situation then I was able to type last night. I have experienced sexual abuse when I was younger. I'm active duty and have been overseas to KAF. I have met gay soldiers from a few countries, including the US. antarctica members are few and far between I bet.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Sandy on March 15, 2011, 10:21:12 AM
Welcome, chmedic12, to our shared obsession with Brokeback Mountain.

If you want to describe your situation in more detail, we will be able to offer (I hope) better advice. If you want to do so privately, you may send me a PM.

In the meanwhile, browse around the forum, and do introduce yourself as Lyle suggested,

See you on the threads,

Sandy
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: desertrat on March 16, 2011, 02:02:36 AM
I am wondering if anyone could help/make a suggestion or two. I am living in close quarters with a str8 male (four months). we're both soldiers. Last week we got drunk, i made a move and he turned away. He's angry with me. I have told I was sorry that I thought what I was doing was appropriate. He does not want to talk with me about it. what do I do? ask me any questions you want publicly or privately TY.

hello cfmedic!

maybe you want to give us some more information? for example, did he know you were gay before you made a move on him? i'm not sure i can give you very helpful advices, but when i read your lines, my thought was that you really might have to let your friend come to terms with what happened. misunderstandings like the one you had (you, drunk, getting the impression that he might be interested, was it like that?) happen, and for the not-interested part it can appear as quite a betrayal of your friendship. i guess he'll need time to come to term with it. chances are that he is sees your friendship in a new light now - he might fear now that you don't see him as a friend, that you never really wanted his friendship, but always aimed to seduce him. he might see that as a betrayal. so, here is my advice: give him that time he needs. show him that you a still are a friend he can rely on and that you respect his personal boundaries. if you have been good friends before, chances are high that after a while, he will be able to see it as an unlucky move coming from too much booze and he might even feel flattered that you find him hot ;)
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: cfmedic12 on March 17, 2011, 07:06:22 PM
Sandy desertrat-thank you for taking a look at my situation. I have know this individual for about 2 years. Last november we got word we would be doing so work up training and I proposed at that time that he and I live together for the duration of the training.

I thought I had a good idea of who TJ was. Even in the context of sexuality. He never said he was bisexual. I never said I was homosexual  (I did have a str8 past that lead to where I am -now- I indentify with men). He knew people I knew and they were gay and there was reason to believe he had some experience.
That info is eclipsed with my experience with him as a roommate. I slept with him in his bed twice. We did not have sex (even though I wanted to). We shared many things as military. I have his back he has mine. Workout together, eat and go out together. I was physically very close to him. He never stopped me from touching him as I knew he enjoyed this.
As for what I did-I was playing with his privates-not even directly -it was through the blankets-something I had done before without objection. I wanted to go further but he just turned over and said good night.
The next day it's as if I I was a stranger, he didn't want to talk about it. Since he's been a bit of a douche. I have rank so it doesn't cross professional boundaries. No, this has nothing to do with rank. My impression is he has decided that he wants no part of it. I just want some explanation and considering our history I believe I am entitled to this.

Thanks
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: desertrat on March 18, 2011, 07:05:45 AM
hey cfmedic - thanks for enlighten us a little bit...and now i do understand better what eats you up. there are no clean-cut boundaries and rules, so it's difficult to understand what's "allowed" and what's "too far", right? i wish i could give you a good advice, but i guess i don't have the necessary experience....maybe somebody who has been in a similar situation? i would still recommend giving him time...maybe he's in an inner turmoil about his sexuality right now?

i've seen you posted on the military thread as well - why don't you post your whole story there, too. there are a couple of soldiers there, they might have similar experiences and can at least tell you what they did in such a situation.

in any way - don't give up on the friendship you have. i hope it will be back to a good, solid friendship soon again!  :)
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: cfmedic12 on March 18, 2011, 06:50:40 PM
Thanks desertrat I'll keep you posted.  :)
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: cfmedic12 on March 18, 2011, 07:34:21 PM
Desertrat says, "in any way - don't give up on the friendship you have. i hope it will be back to a good, solid friendship soon again" 

Thank you.  I know we can work through this.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: Sandy on March 21, 2011, 01:49:46 PM
cfmedic,

Thanks for the clarification. Martina (deserat) offers some good advice. It will probably help to step back a bit to give both yourself and TJ some breathing room so you can work on your friendship. It's generally going to be complicated when work and affairs of the heart come together. There are certainly lots of civilian businesses that discourage intimate relationships among employees because (so they say) it may dilute concentration on the business at hand. When the two are of unequal rank, in particular, the door for lawsuits based on sexual harrassment opens pretty wide. I would think that since the military is a job that is literally 24/7/365, those sorts of considerations would be even more acute, as would be reactions. Right now, TJ needs to know that, as a friend, you have his back.

Am I correct in assuming that you are in military service in a country that has a longer policy of gays serving openly than in the US? Say, Canada or the UK?

The forum has a thread on gays in the military, and a number of our members have served in the armed forces, so you might wish to check out that thread as well.

http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php?board=35.0

See you on the threads,

Sandy
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: cfmedic12 on March 21, 2011, 06:39:17 PM
Sandy
My eyes have been opened just by a few suggestions I have gotten here. I really have to step back and look back at my motivation. I have to say that while things on the surface have improved between myself and TJ, my intuition says it's going to take a while.
I said to another member, "There as many sides to a person as there are situations". This tempers my insight. I don't want to crucify myself. I have done that privately for a very long time.
Thanks for the support. I'll check out the military thread. Yes I am Canadian.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: fritzkep on March 21, 2011, 06:50:58 PM
You may wish to send a PM to Atruant, who is a retired officer in the Canadian Forces Air Command. I'm sure he would have a great many insights into your situation, CFMedic.

And now that you have made over 5 posts, you can send messages (don't know if you had tried before without success before the minimum number of posts).

Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: cfmedic12 on March 22, 2011, 08:51:09 AM
Thanks Fritzkep.  :)
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: frokes on October 13, 2020, 01:17:27 PM
I never knew about this thread until now. 
I wanted to thank everyone who has posted. Currently I am reading through the posts and I feel less alone.

Even though I have made my peace with the fact that I was sexually abused when I was four years old, I find sexual situations to be troublesome. It takes a lot of time to become comfortable. In the last relationship I was in, I had this experience where I was once unable to say that I wanted to stop having sex so we kept having sex. Usually I am good at verbally expressing my thoughts and keeping a conversation going. I guess I wasn't processing my thoughts fast enough to speak up at that moment when I felt I wanted to stop.

After that episode I discussed it with a therapist. I don't remember that anything useful came of that session with the therapist. But I guess I will need to prepare myself better for such situations if I should enter a new relationship in the future. I also find it hard to know how much to share with people, especially if it is someone that I am romantically involved with. A therapist once told me I shouldn't share my experience of being abused, because it brings up a whole lot of emotions. But it seems unnatural not to share the information, as it affects my relationships.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: CellarDweller115 on October 13, 2020, 01:48:26 PM
Hello Frokes.

Thank you for sharing your story with us.

As for being told not to share it, I don't agree.  I don't believe it should be shared right away.  Everyone doesn't have a need to know everything.  However, when relationships deepen and become closer, then I absolutely believe it should be shared.

Not sharing it gives the impression that it is something to be ashamed of, when it's nothing to be ashamed of.
Title: Re: Surviving Abuse - The Effects & Recovery
Post by: frokes on October 13, 2020, 02:28:29 PM
Hello Chuck. Thank you so much for responding, I appreciate that.

That is a good advice. I hadn't thought of it that way before. Fortunately I don't feel much shame. But I have been told some times that my behaviour in romantic relationships isn't similar to what people expect, that I seem a bit off.