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THE GAY EXPERIENCE => Gay, Bi, Whatever (Gay-Friendly Always Welcome) => Topic started by: shelber on February 11, 2007, 12:23:00 PM

Title: Is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: shelber on February 11, 2007, 12:23:00 PM
so for the last couple of days i have been reading through different messages and replies, and it occured to me that there is a feeling of hush up amongst some replies.

now i am not going to say where, or who, but it occured to me that maybe some people, including some of us in the gay and lesbian realm dont want to embrace "gayness" and possibly are just offering lip service so that they can be patted on the back for being such wonderful warm, caring and accepting citizens.

but then look out if you should suggest something that goes against their beliefs, for example and just because the forum is about bbm i use this.

jake....is he gay or is he straight. well i am not 100% sure, i have my suspicions but until the man comes out and says either way, well then thats what they are suspicions, that can be said the same for those that think he is straight.

what i dont understand are the responses that give off the "he just cant be one of those people" vibes. and yet, the same people that say these comments are right in there fantasizing about him and heath in various sexually scenes. but when it comes down to it, he just isnt allowed to  be gay.

i dont usually get to involved with what others think as i believe that everyone is entitled to their opinions and are able to have their own thoughts and theories, but when i see people on the boards come right out and tell another person who is also allowed to have their own thoughts and theories that they are wrong, and basically trying to hush them up, well i wanted to post the question

are we as accepting as we all want the rest of the world to believe, or are we putting on a fine performance while in our hearts the thoughts about accepting someone for their sexual preference are non existant

just a ramble from someone who doesnt usually start topics.... :)

shelly


*edited by moderator to capitalize first word*
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Lola on February 11, 2007, 12:40:00 PM
Oh I love to be the first one to answer a topic!  ;)  You make a good point.  I think I am very "accepting" so then I have to ask myself would it bother me if Jake was gay?.  No of course it wouldn't.   The thing is I never understood about the debates on his sexuality is................whether he is gay or straight, does anyone on here (male or female) really thing they have a chance with him?  LOL

And secondly up until Brokeback Mountain would anyone have ever questioned his sexuality?  Probably not, so why just because he did such a good job in the movie, do people question it now?

I mean for that matter, anyone in Hollywood, any actor or actress could be gay.  But as you say until they come out and say "I am gay" why speculate?  And why should they even come out, I have always felt that is something that really is no ones business?

I remember finding out George Michael was gay (I was probably the last person to figure it out) I thought, hmmmm good for him.  I wish him well, guess we aren't going to be running off together after all.  ;)

Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: shelber on February 11, 2007, 12:48:39 PM
Oh I love to be the first one to answer a topic!  ;)  You make a good point.  I think I am very "accepting" so then I have to ask myself would it bother me if Jake was gay?.  No of course it wouldn't.   The thing is I never understood about the debates on his sexuality is................whether he is gay or straight, does anyone on here (male or female) really thing they have a chance with him?  LOL

And secondly up until Brokeback Mountain would anyone have ever questioned his sexuality?  Probably not, so why just because he did such a good job in the movie, do people question it now?

I mean for that matter, anyone in Hollywood, any actor or actress could be gay.  But as you say until they come out and say "I am gay" why speculate?  And why should they even come out, I have always felt that is something that really is no ones business?

I remember finding out George Michael was gay (I was probably the last person to figure it out) I thought, hmmmm good for him.  I wish him well, guess we aren't going to be running off together after all.  ;)



thanks lola for your response, lol, i have such a fear that i word things wrong or dumb that it comes off as blah blah blah blah.

i guess to add to something you had said:

" does anyone on here (male or female) really thing they have a chance with him?  LOL" - i wonder if that could take away from the "fantasy" is it more fun to have two straight males (supposedly) having this wild love affair, than 2 gay males having the same wild love affair, maybe having them straight keeps it hot and new....

maybe i should have a nap before i write anymore. lol

Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Lola on February 11, 2007, 12:58:43 PM
Well, I am not a gay male, but I have heard gay guys on here say it would be fun to nab a straight guy.  I am not even so sure that there may not have been a little "spark" between them doing filming.  Why not, why would that be hard for people to believe?  They are young, good looking and pretty open minded.   I guess only they know for sure!  ;) And again, would that make them gay?  I would like to think we could live in a world, where we could see the beauty (attraction) in everyone, males to other males, females to other females, whether they were gay or straight.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: shelber on February 11, 2007, 01:00:45 PM
Well, I am not a gay male, but I have heard gay guys on here say it would be fun to nab a straight guy.  I am not even so sure that there may not have been a little "spark" between them doing filming.  Why not, why would that be hard for people to believe?  They are young, good looking and pretty open minded.   I guess only they know for sure!  ;) And again, would that make them gay?  I would like to think we could live in a world, where we could see the beauty (attraction) in everyone, males to other males, females to other females, whether they were gay or straight.

HURRAH'S AND HUZZAH'S

when you find that world would you let me know, i will move there in a heart beat
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Lola on February 11, 2007, 01:04:35 PM
LOL I have always encouraged my boys to do that.  I remember the one guy was a big Smashing Pumpkins fan, I asked him once "do you think Billy Corogan is attractive" and he said "yea" I knew then I had did my job!   ;D
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Kelpersmek on February 11, 2007, 01:20:30 PM
I can't comment one way or another on what you've seen among the threads, as I haven't been reading much recently...

One observation for whatever it is worth though:
I was having a conversation with someone recently that kind of crystalised this.  It always seems to me that things like homophobia and racism are lurking just under the surface at any sufficiently large social gathering.  The thing is, a few years ago no one would have batted an eyelid at a homophobic comment.  Quite the opposite was usually true.  But now it is generally accepted in the more 'enlightened' social groups that homophobia is wrong. 

That doesn't constitute a blanket acceptance though.  What it puts in place instead is a reluctance to put forward the kind of homophobic remarks and jokes that would have been acceptable ten years or twenty years ago.  Occasionally you'll find one person crosses, shyly, into territory they know is now largely unacceptable.  A small and 'relatively inoffesnive' remark will be made.  If this goes by without anyone saying something, a few more offensive jokes might follow it up, as the person relaxes and begins to reveal exactly what bigotry they have been bottling up inside.

It takes a lot of work to break down predujices, and some bigots will never abandon their hateful views, but by making it less and less socially acceptable to openly make such offensive 'jokes' we can gradually get the bigots to keep their mouths closed.  Without their hate rhetoric being spewed out (intentionally or otherwise.. a lot of bigots seem to think that they're being perfectly reasonable) we have a better chance of bringing up the next generation (and the next and the next) as open minded people who don't immediately hate someone based on some perceived difference. 

The thing is, we're living pretty much (as far as I can see) in stage 1 of erradicating homophobia.  Lots of people still see it as acceptable.  Lots of religions teach that homosexuality is to be hated and persecuted.  We're living in the age where we need to still speak up and educate people, or let them know that whatever they think privately, it's *not* ok to try and spread their own brand of hate.  For many of us today though, we were raised with the inherent homophobia of our culture.

I frequently find myself questioning whether what I have said or thought or done is homophobic.  I have been brought up and exposed to so many forms of media, teachings, and opinions that are inheretly homophobic, that some of it is bound to have worked its way into my beliefs and attitudes.  It's my task to strike a balance within myself between being overly sensitive and seeing homophobia everywhere; and rooting out those last corners of bigotry within myself.  It's a tough job, because it involves questioning things that society as a whole is still not questioning.  It's a task that we all have to set for ourselves.

If we succeed, hopefully, then these attitudes should begin to die out.  Those that come after us might have a much better view, and look back on our barbaric attitudes in disbelief.  Here's hoping.

Anyway, what I am trying to say is that I hope what you are seeing is a part of this process, and that it's a good thing that you are bringing a little light onto it.  Sometimes people aren't even aware of these lingering attitudes, and it can be even harder to dig them out of yourself when you believe you most certainly *aren't* homophobic.  We've all been damaged by our upbringings in this regard, and we're probably not as accepting as we'd like to believe, or are quick to announce. 

Here's to everyone struggling to make themselves a better person.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Lola on February 11, 2007, 01:29:32 PM
WOW that was very well said.

If I can add, I think the only way to really get rid of any trace of homophobia in a person, is to let them know a gay person.

Same with racism or any other form of prejudice.

My kids were raised Roman Catholic, although honestly (believe it or not) I don't think anyone ever told them homosexuality was a sin.

But at some point, we met and became friends with alot of gay people.  That was what kept them on the right path.  They got to know our friends, they loved them for who they were.

Had they never known them, they may have had all sorts of preconceived notions about gay people.

I mean people are often afraid of what they don't know.

Once you see that people are just like us, there is nothing to fear.

My youngest guy was dancing to YMCA at a party with one of our gay male friends a few months ago, I thought it was wonderful.   Like I said he doesn't know any different.  I didn't raise him to fear someone who is different than him.

I think that job (and it is a important job) lies with the parents.  And when he has kids, hopefully it will never even be a thought or question.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Lyle (Mooska) on February 11, 2007, 01:54:17 PM
But as you say until they come out and say "I am gay" why speculate?  And why should they even come out, I have always felt that is something that really is no ones business?

If you had said above "Until they come out and say I am straight why speculate?" that answers your question.  Straight people don't have to make a deal out of who and what they are.  A generalization is that straight people think everyone is straight unless they're told differently and gay people "speculate" everyone is gay unless told differently.

If there is nothing wrong with being gay, why not speculate?  Does it tarnish the person you are speculating about?

And to say "why should they even come out", well why shouldn't we be able to grow up like straight people do?  Without any fear of being who you are in that area, so that coming out wouldn't even be a necessary term.  If it's "no one's business" then I don't want to hear about any straight person's marriage or having children or anything else about their lives, either.  We should all act as though everyone is single and asexual.

The biggest point is, if there is nothing wrong with it, there would be no reason NOT to speculate or talk about it or anything.  The only reason people don't want to come out is because it is not truly acceptable in this society and all sorts of consequences can occur to a person who does come out.  That's why people should come out.  Those who are out know it is better. In general, have you ever known anyone who has come out saying they wish they hadn't?
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: shelber on February 11, 2007, 02:04:05 PM


If there is nothing wrong with being gay, why not speculate?  Does it tarnish the person you are speculating about?


there is nothing wrong with being gay,lol or straight for that matter teehee. it shouldnt tarnish them, what i my point was is why is it some people will go out of their way to try and stifle someone when they say "jake is gay.." or even any celebrity for that matter.

why is it so important for some folks to make sure his straight identity is clear with no blemish, i mean what another person thinks will not change my opinion (which is he is about as straight as a paper clip, but thats my opinion) and i wont try and change anyone elses, but i think we all have the right to say what we think, without having to be constantly chided, or subtly rebuked for saying what we think. which is what i should of said in the beginning, lol and thats another reason folks why i dont start topics, lol  ;D
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Lola on February 11, 2007, 02:12:59 PM
But as you say until they come out and say "I am gay" why speculate?  And why should they even come out, I have always felt that is something that really is no ones business?

If you had said above "Until they come out and say I am straight why speculate?" that answers your question.  Straight people don't have to make a deal out of who and what they are.  A generalization is that straight people think everyone is straight unless they're told differently and gay people "speculate" everyone is gay unless told differently.

If there is nothing wrong with being gay, why not speculate?  Does it tarnish the person you are speculating about?

And to say "why should they even come out", well why shouldn't we be able to grow up like straight people do?  Without any fear of being who you are in that area, so that coming out wouldn't even be a necessary term.  If it's "no one's business" then I don't want to hear about any straight person's marriage or having children or anything else about their lives, either.  We should all act as though everyone is single and asexual.

The biggest point is, if there is nothing wrong with it, there would be no reason NOT to speculate or talk about it or anything.  The only reason people don't want to come out is because it is not truly acceptable in this society and all sorts of consequences can occur to a person who does come out.  That's why people should come out.  Those who are out know it is better. In general, have you ever known anyone who has come out saying they wish they hadn't?


Do gay people think everyone is gay until told differently, is that true?  And yes I would assume "the majority" of people are straight, because aren't there more straight people in the world than gay?

And why wouldn't you want to hear about peoples marriage and kids etc. etc.   Gay people are marrying and having families!    I want to hear about that, I do!

And speak to Nathan Lane, because he kept quiet about his sexuality for years.  And he said he did it because it really was no ones business.    And he finally did come out and I don't believe he has suffered any ill effects.  People love him and still do, they don't care who he sleeps with.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: lowcountrygirl on February 11, 2007, 02:17:02 PM
But as you say until they come out and say "I am gay" why speculate?  And why should they even come out, I have always felt that is something that really is no ones business?

If you had said above "Until they come out and say I am straight why speculate?" that answers your question.  Straight people don't have to make a deal out of who and what they are.  A generalization is that straight people think everyone is straight unless they're told differently and gay people "speculate" everyone is gay unless told differently.

If there is nothing wrong with being gay, why not speculate?  Does it tarnish the person you are speculating about?

And to say "why should they even come out", well why shouldn't we be able to grow up like straight people do?  Without any fear of being who you are in that area, so that coming out wouldn't even be a necessary term.  If it's "no one's business" then I don't want to hear about any straight person's marriage or having children or anything else about their lives, either.  We should all act as though everyone is single and asexual.

The biggest point is, if there is nothing wrong with it, there would be no reason NOT to speculate or talk about it or anything.  The only reason people don't want to come out is because it is not truly acceptable in this society and all sorts of consequences can occur to a person who does come out.  That's why people should come out.  Those who are out know it is better. In general, have you ever known anyone who has come out saying they wish they hadn't?


Bless you, Lyle, I agree with absolutely everything you said!!

And Shelly, my love, bless you, too, for starting this topic!
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: shelber on February 11, 2007, 02:20:20 PM
But as you say until they come out and say "I am gay" why speculate?  And why should they even come out, I have always felt that is something that really is no ones business?

If you had said above "Until they come out and say I am straight why speculate?" that answers your question.  Straight people don't have to make a deal out of who and what they are.  A generalization is that straight people think everyone is straight unless they're told differently and gay people "speculate" everyone is gay unless told differently.

If there is nothing wrong with being gay, why not speculate?  Does it tarnish the person you are speculating about?

And to say "why should they even come out", well why shouldn't we be able to grow up like straight people do?  Without any fear of being who you are in that area, so that coming out wouldn't even be a necessary term.  If it's "no one's business" then I don't want to hear about any straight person's marriage or having children or anything else about their lives, either.  We should all act as though everyone is single and asexual.

The biggest point is, if there is nothing wrong with it, there would be no reason NOT to speculate or talk about it or anything.  The only reason people don't want to come out is because it is not truly acceptable in this society and all sorts of consequences can occur to a person who does come out.  That's why people should come out.  Those who are out know it is better. In general, have you ever known anyone who has come out saying they wish they hadn't?


Bless you, Lyle, I agree with absolutely everything you said!!

And Shelly, my love, bless you, too, for starting this topic!


well there is a reason why i did,lol, i am not sure if i was clear on why i did though, but alas, i am enjoying the conversation.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Kelpersmek on February 11, 2007, 03:53:09 PM
If it's "no one's business" then I don't want to hear about any straight person's marriage or having children or anything else about their lives, either.  We should all act as though everyone is single and asexual.

I think that perhaps the phrase "no ones business" is less to do with "I don't want to know, don't tell me", and more like "it shouldn't even be a question most people consider".

Now, lots of people speculate as to Jake's sexuality, and this is understandable within this community.  But if I walk into a shop to buy a loaf of bread, the question of my sexuality should never arise.  It's not related to the context, unless the shop keeper develops a sudden crush on me (hey, it could happen.  It could.  Okay, not likely, but possible.  Thanks buddy, my self esteem's in piece now  :P ).

What does it really matter if Jake is straight or gay?  Do we need to speculate on who is and is not a vegan?  No, because it simply doesn't matter in most circumstances.  I think (and correct me if I am putting words into your mouth) that that was what was being said.

The biggest point is, if there is nothing wrong with it, there would be no reason NOT to speculate or talk about it or anything. 

There's no reason not to speculate, except to respect the privacy of the person in question.  It's not so much an issue of Jake's sexuality, as I see it, but rather that he has not chosen to make that information public.

I am grasping for a good comparison... let's see...

Imagine you walk into a shop, and I am the shopkeeper (or minding the shop for the previous shopkeeper, who talked me into it because it turns out they do have an enormous crush on me).  Anyway, you wander past, say "hi" and go look at tins of beans.  I may privately try and guess all sorts of things about you, because it is the nature of human interaction to want to get a few conclusions under our belt before we even get going.  Straight or gay?  Vegetarian or omnivore?  Dog person or cat person?  What kind of job might you do?  Is that your real hair?

There's no harm in me speculating on any of these things.  I might be spot on or waaaay off.

Now though, imagine another person wanders into the shop, and comes over to tlak to me.  We greet each other and then I begin to speculate out loud to the new person: "See that shopper over there... what colour do you think their underwear is?  What sort of music do you think they like?"

Now, black, red, white or pink, it doesn't make a big difference what colour underwear you're wearing, but that doesn't mean you are comfortable with it being a topic for open debate and discussion, right?

What I am saying is, private speculation is one thing, public discussion is a lot more likely to get a "That's none of your business" response.  Hope that makes sense  ::)
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Lyle (Mooska) on February 11, 2007, 03:59:06 PM
Do gay people think everyone is gay until told differently, is that true?  And yes I would assume "the majority" of people are straight, because aren't there more straight people in the world than gay?

If you lived where I do, you would assume most people are gay. 

Quote
And why wouldn't you want to hear about peoples marriage and kids etc. etc.   Gay people are marrying and having families!    I want to hear about that, I do!
 

I was referring to your statement about someone's sexuality being no one's business.  No one really says that in terms of straight people, do they, cause it's just accepted if you are straight.  So no problem.  It's only a problem when you are gay.  Hence, you'll hear people say, I don't care if they're gay as long as it's not around me.  But gay is more than just who you are sleeping with.  It's a sensibility.  The other night Tavis Smiley was alluding to Cybil Shepherd from The L Word that she (her character) couldn't know she was gay unless she'd acted on it.  Which is comepletely naive and ridiculous.  Gay people know they are gay even if they've never had a sexual encounter, but, in general, straight people mostly think it's all about sex.  That's no more true than it is with straight people.

Quote
And speak to Nathan Lane, because he kept quiet about his sexuality for years.  And he said he did it because it really was no ones business.    And he finally did come out and I don't believe he has suffered any ill effects.  People love him and still do, they don't care who he sleeps with.

Like I said, it's about MORE than sexuality.  That's why people surmised  Nathan was gay before he ever came out.  Gay people always say it's no one's business, but they say it because they are afraid of things.  That it'll hurt their careers, or they're afraid they'll lose money, or they might fear for their safety or a myriad of other reasons.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: shelber on February 11, 2007, 04:21:19 PM
i just realized i didnt answer my own question

is society really as accepting as it claims?

i dont think it is

i think in front of cameras or someone wants to be known then they are more apt to say "hell yes gay/lesbians should have equal rights" but i believe that when the world cant see them and its time to vote we wont win. why? i wish i knew.

but when it comes to our beloved actors and actresses they know, they know its better to not say anything while their career is hot because them coming out could kill their careers. all the women who love jake, and fantasize about being with him, and wanting to get him all naked and such, well will they still feel that way should he say "well folks i am gay" it shouldnt, because fantasy is what you make of it. sandra bullock is straight  >:( but that doesnt stop me from throwing her a few lines in some yummy fantasies i have. does it make her less attractive to me that she is straight, lord no.

i wish that it was ok to be gay and not have to worry about anything, i wish that it would of been ok to have held jeanine's hand while we were at myrtle beach, as it was hand holding weather, but we didnt dare, to afraid? maybe a little worried. why cant jake or heath, be gay should that be who they are (wishes) why cant we all just love them for the wonderful performance they gave us in brokeback mountain. why cant the people who are adamant that he is straight be ok with those of us who are adamant that he isnt, why hush us? why say "its not complicated, he is straight" why cant we say well yes you are entitiled to your opinion, as am i. why does it turn out to be people feeling stiffled and people feeling defensive.

i think jake is gay....there i said it......now i shall wait and see who most wants to put tape over my mouth  ;D
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Lyle (Mooska) on February 11, 2007, 04:21:20 PM
I think that perhaps the phrase "no ones business" is less to do with "I don't want to know, don't tell me", and more like "it shouldn't even be a question most people consider".

I think humans are always considering each others sexuality.  That's why even astronauts can get crazy over it.

Quote
What does it really matter if Jake is straight or gay?  Do we need to speculate on who is and is not a vegan?  No, because it simply doesn't matter in most circumstances.  I think (and correct me if I am putting words into your mouth) that that was what was being said.

Remember that study that said men think about sex some outrageous amount of time like ten seconds out of every minute or something like that?  So, men at least, think about sex all the time practically.  So if your shopkeeper was gay and you walked in, he'd take notice.  If he's straight, he probably wouldn't think about it.  But if he was straight and a woman walked in, he'd think about it.  Men are always speculating about it.  The stereotype of construction workers ogling women as they walk by their work is a stereotype cause it happens alot, appropriate or not.

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There's no reason not to speculate, except to respect the privacy of the person in question.  It's not so much an issue of Jake's sexuality, as I see it, but rather that he has not chosen to make that information public.

...but that doesn't mean you are comfortable with it being a topic for open debate and discussion, right?

What I am saying is, private speculation is one thing, public discussion is a lot more likely to get a "That's none of your business" response.  Hope that makes sense  ::)

That makes sense in the context of most people, but public celebrities are in another realm all together.  All those nightly entertainment shows thrive on those things and seem to have few boundaries.

In terms of someone making their orientation public or not, like I said, that's why the movie studios used to make gay stars go out with women.  It's a problem in this country.  It can cause a celebrity's career harm in many instances.  I mean, everyone knows that Sean Hayes is gay, but he says it's no ones business.  Does he say that to his friends as well?  John Travolta sues people saying he's gay, but that doesn't stop him from asking men like my waiter friend Rick out on dates.

Gay celebrities may say their sexuality is no one's business, but that implies they only tell certain people or they are completely closeted.  For straight celebrities it's not like that.

Hmmm, I hope that was coherent-lol!
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Lola on February 11, 2007, 04:33:54 PM
i think jake is gay....there i said it......now i shall wait and see who most wants to put tape over my mouth  ;D

Okay I have to ask, why do you think that?   Just asking!  ;)
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Lyle (Mooska) on February 11, 2007, 04:38:05 PM
is society really as accepting as it claims?
i dont think it is

Agree.  You can see that just by polls that say that glbt's should have equal rights, but then at the voting booth it's a different story.

Quote
I think jake is gay....there i said it......now i shall wait and see who most wants to put tape over my mouth  ;D

As to your original point...I encountered that on a thread when I was relating a story about Jake being seen doing things with his friend Austin that my friend had observed who said "Straight men just don't touch each other like that."  Well, posters were all wondering why we had to "speculate" about Jake's sexuality all the time or even report stories like that.

I'll tell you that in 2000-2001 I was well acquainted with the RCA/Columbia guy in charge of their video department.  He had met Ang Lee (the guy and Ang are both Chinese) and he matter of factly told me that Ang is gay, as is he.  All of a sudden it seems Ang wasn't last year!  People would say "he has a wife" (like they didn't even see BBM???).  Really, I was confused.  Maybe that's why Ang does movies about people hiding their true identities--Wedding Banquet, Sense & Sensibility, The Hulk, The Ice Storm, BBM etc.  Maybe that's why he dedicated BBM to his wife...similar situation?  Straight men have learned to fantasize about their celebrities by identifying say with the woman in a film, to have the relationship with the man in their mind/fantasy.  I don't know if lesbians do that vice-versa?  Certainly, women seem to have been able to do that with BBM, but man haven't.  I can't see Mark Wahlberg identifying with either guy in BBM and projecting himself into that situation.  They have never had to like gay men have.  They "could", but they won't.

I guess if you shoot down anyone's fantasies they will react.  Speaking of straight men--I've often wondered--they watch porn movies and there's always a guy there with his penis out making love to the woman--is that like a blind spot to them?  They never notice or what? 

Anyway, it seems my points are all over the place, but what the hey!
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: shelber on February 11, 2007, 04:50:54 PM
i think jake is gay....there i said it......now i shall wait and see who most wants to put tape over my mouth  ;D

Okay I have to ask, why do you think that?   Just asking!  ;)

would it be weird if i said gaydar? probably.

well i am going to be honest, i didnt even know jake gyllenhal was an actor until BBM, i always thought he was the un happy looking boy friend of kirsten dunst.

in the pictures of jake where his date is a woman, he looks bored, tense, not having a good time, but in all the pics you see him in where he is with men, he looks alive, happy, sparkly, smily more so, he laughs alot in these pics.

there is a difference in the way he looks when pics are taken, and this classy line from OUT magazine, jake was asked if he had ever been drawn to another man sexually, his response was " no, but hopefully you can see that i’m not afraid of it. that could be read many ways, but to me he was saying no, not yet, but it could happen. that was from an october issue before bbm came out..teehee little play on words there.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Lyle (Mooska) on February 11, 2007, 04:51:19 PM
i think jake is gay....there i said it......now i shall wait and see who most wants to put tape over my mouth  ;D
Okay I have to ask, why do you think that?   Just asking!  ;)

My friend who observed "Straight men just don't touch each other like that" and some on this forum have seen and posted about Jake acting in ways that straight men do not.  So, there is anecdotal evidence from many.  But even if you saw Jake DOING IT with another guy that wouldn't satisfy some.  After all, a good portion of the guys having sex with each other in gay porn films insist they are straight.

I have excellent sources that know Heath is bisexual.  No one ever speculates about Heath.  (I have no reason to doubt them.)

By the way, if all of our information is correct, that Jake and Ang are gay and Heath is bi, all those people who complained about BBM being done all by straight people with their "straight" sensibilities are totally off base!  LOL!

From past history, we will know who the gay/bi celebrities of today are in about 20 years when they (or others) all write their books a la Montgomery Clift, Hattie McDaniel, Rock Hudson, Robert Taylor, Barbara Stanwyck, Errol Flynn (who'd do it with anyone or thing according to writers) Tab Hunter, Richard Chamberlain, and countless others!
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: shelber on February 11, 2007, 04:54:17 PM
is society really as accepting as it claims?
i dont think it is

Agree.  You can see that just by polls that say that glbt's should have equal rights, but then at the voting booth it's a different story.
Quote
I think jake is gay....there i said it......now i shall wait and see who most wants to put tape over my mouth  ;D

As to your original point...I encountered that on a thread when I was relating a story about Jake being seen doing things with his friend Austin that my friend had observed who said "Straight men just don't touch each other like that."  Well, posters were all wondering why we had to "speculate" about Jake's sexuality all the time or even report stories like that.

I'll tell you that in 2000-2001 I was well acquainted with the RCA/Columbia guy in charge of their video department.  He had met Ang Lee (the guy and Ang are both Chinese) and he matter of factly told me that Ang is gay, as is he.  All of a sudden it seems Ang wasn't last year!  People would say "he has a wife" (like they didn't even see BBM???).  Really, I was confused.  Maybe that's why Ang does movies about people hiding their true identities--Wedding Banquet, Sense & Sensibility, The Hulk, The Ice Storm, BBM etc.  Maybe that's why he dedicated BBM to his wife...similar situation?  Straight men have learned to fantasize about their celebrities by identifying say with the woman in a film, to have the relationship with the man in their mind/fantasy.  I don't know if lesbians do that vice-versa?  Certainly, women seem to have been able to do that with BBM, but man haven't.  I can't see Mark Wahlberg identifying with either guy in BBM and projecting himself into that situation.  They have never had to like gay men have.  They "could", but they won't.

I guess if you shoot down anyone's fantasies they will react.  Speaking of straight men--I've often wondered--they watch porn movies and there's always a guy there with his penis out making love to the woman--is that like a blind spot to them?  They never notice or what? 

Anyway, it seems my points are all over the place, but what the hey!

i couldnt agree more.

and i have seen other threads to where people were as you said " were all wondering why we had to "speculate" about Jake's sexuality all the time "
lol why are people always specualting that he is straight?

i liked your response lyle thank you :-*
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: shelber on February 11, 2007, 04:58:26 PM


I have excellent sources that know Heath is bisexual.  No one ever speculates about Heath.  (I have no reason to doubt them.)


my opinion on why no one speculates about heath is because he is married and has a child, and living the all american dream. thats got to make you straight right.

lol i guess that would make be bi instead of gay, i have a child, but i drink beer, watch hockey and am totally and crazily in love with a woman.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Lola on February 11, 2007, 05:01:08 PM
would it be weird if i said gaydar? probably.

well i am going to be honest, i didnt even know jake gyllenhal was an actor until BBM, i always thought he was the un happy looking boy friend of kirsten dunst.

in the pictures of jake where his date is a woman, he looks bored, tense, not having a good time, but in all the pics you see him in where he is with men, he looks alive, happy, sparkly, smily more so, he laughs alot in these pics.

there is a difference in the way he looks when pics are taken, and this classy line from OUT magazine, jake was asked if he had ever been drawn to another man sexually, his response was " no, but hopefully you can see that i’m not afraid of it. that could be read many ways, but to me he was saying no, not yet, but it could happen. that was from an october issue before bbm came out..teehee little play on words there.

(http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d145/cccccarol/jaker.jpg)

He looks happy to me! lol

I can see by this picture, they are more than friends.  When I see him with that guy friend, I just see two friends.  I guess it is how we look at it.  We can see anything we want to see.     I know my husband is at his happiest at sporting events.  And if and when he goes, I prefer it not to be with me.  So you would see plenty of him watching sports and laughing and talking.  That is what guys (some guys) do.

But having said that, Jake and that guy could be more friends.  He was asked point blank and told the press they were just friends.  So I guess I am just going to take him at his word.

IF he is is open as we say, then he would have no reason to deny it.

As for Heath, no I have never thought he was gay.

Okay now I am thinking of the movie IN and OUT, "is everyone gay"   LOL   I don't think so.

Heath lives in 2007, he has no reason to marry and have a child for any other reason than that he is in love, madly in love, with Michelle, which he has said many many times.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Lyle (Mooska) on February 11, 2007, 05:02:41 PM
i think jake is gay....there i said it......now i shall wait and see who most wants to put tape over my mouth  ;D

Okay I have to ask, why do you think that?   Just asking!  ;)

would it be weird if i said gaydar? probably.

No!  Not at all!

I test my gaydar out every week lately, on Gay, Straight or Taken,
where they deliberately try to throw you curve balls on your assumptions.
I try to see which guy "I" feel most comfortable with and would be interested in and then which one is gay--not always the same!  Those Nascar gay guys I just could never get along with!

Truthfully--I have no gaydar about Jake being one way or another.  I
simply cannot decide either way!

P.S.:  My gaydar is always up about Kenny Chesney whom I don't know much about.  Any info?
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: shelber on February 11, 2007, 05:08:02 PM
lola you are a gem

actually i agree he does look happy in those pics, honestly i think that is the first time i have seen them
(http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d145/cccccarol/jaker.jpg)

vs

(http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e298/Slave2Placebo/th_24dix76.jpg)

lol i think you are right too, its how we see it, which i think kind of goes with my we all have a right to an opinion  :-*, and let me add this conversation could be an excellent tool for others to see how people can each have their own thoughts but yet still respect and care for people who differ THANKS EVERYONE for respecting eachother
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: shelber on February 11, 2007, 05:09:54 PM
i think jake is gay....there i said it......now i shall wait and see who most wants to put tape over my mouth  ;D

Okay I have to ask, why do you think that?   Just asking!  ;)

would it be weird if i said gaydar? probably.

No!  Not at all!

I test my gaydar out every week lately, on Gay, Straight or Taken,
where they deliberately try to throw you curve balls on your assumptions.
I try to see which guy "I" feel most comfortable with and would be interested in and then which one is gay--not always the same!  Those Nascar gay guys I just could never get along with!

Truthfully--I have no gaydar about Jake being one way or another.  I
simply cannot decide either way!

P.S.:  My gaydar is always up about Kenny Chesney whom I don't know much about.  Any info?


i havent always been right either.

about kenny chesney though, not sure, i am not a big country fan.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Lola on February 11, 2007, 05:14:02 PM

(http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e298/Slave2Placebo/th_24dix76.jpg)


I think that is doctered isn't it? lol

"You know, it's flattering when there's a rumor that says I'm bisexual. It means I can play more kinds of roles. I'm open to whatever people want to call me. I've never really been attracted to men sexually, but I don't think I would be afraid of it if it happened." (Details, December 2005)


And yes I love that we can discuss and respect each others opinions!  ;D
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Lyle (Mooska) on February 11, 2007, 05:14:07 PM
I can see by this picture, they are more than friends.
Yeah, that lasted!
Anyway, many women love gay men as friends! 

Quote
He was asked point blank and told the press they were just friends.  So I guess I am just going to take him at his word.

And T.R. Knight never used the "f" word.   

Quote
IF he [Jake] is as open as we say, then he would have no reason to deny it.

And I've got a bridge I can sell you in NYC!

Quote
As for Heath, no I have never thought he was gay.

What about "bi" as I stated?

Quote
Heath lives in 2007, he has no reason to marry and have a child for any other reason than that he is in love, madly in love, with Michelle, which he has said many many times.

So did Ennis.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: merrobot on February 11, 2007, 05:15:01 PM
Hey, Shelly - I like your style: "Is society really as accepting as it claims?  Discuss"  :-*

Well, the short answer to that question is 'no' in my opinion.  I think that there is a move towards acceptance but the pace is pretty slow.  In a lot of ways society is "tolerant" of homosexuality and bisexuality but not quite "accepting".  I think this is reflected in the way that some countries are introducing legislation around 'hate crimes' based on sexual orientation, civil partnerships or gay marriage and other measures designed to reduce discrimination and promote equality.

However, many of the issues that have been brought up on this thread already are less to do with homophobia but with heterosexism.  Now, while homophobic comments and actions are much more widely condemed in society (i.e. the individual beliefs of the homophobe), heterosexist attitudes are very often overlooked.  This is because society still promotes the ideas that heterosexuality is "the norm", that the nuclear family is something to be aspired to and celebrated, that in some way being gay or lesbian or bisexual is somehow less desirable.  Advertising is a very good example as you so rarely see same-sex couples portrayed in mainstream media campaigns and where they are, it is usually for "shock value".

I remember having a conversation a few months ago where some friends were having a discussion about the adoption of kids by same-sex parents.  One friend said she thought it was a good idea that kids who otherwise wouldn't have homes would be able to do so but that you wouldn't want to put teenagers into homes with gay adoptive parents of their own sex as she had read a study that it "would make it more likely that they would turn out gay".  This really incensed me as her implication was "and if you make it more likely that someone will become gay then it's less appealing that if they turn out straight."  Sadly, I think a lot of people still share this sentiment - they like gay men, lesbians and bisexuals, they understand that "it's not their fault" ( ::)), but ultimately they still have this belief that "it would have been better for them if they had been born straight".  I don't think my friend is homophobic, in many ways she is hugely accepting of all kinds of people, but she is still influenced in subtle ways (as are all of us to a greater or lesser degree) that will take a long time to overcome.

This is progress, there is hope, but it's baby steps.  :)
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Kelpersmek on February 11, 2007, 05:15:51 PM

I think humans are always considering each others sexuality. 

I think you're right, but the difference I was trying to point up is between a quick assessment of a person (hot or not?) made at a barely conscious level, and the need to take that into account in how you deal with someone.  I don't think sexuality (which is, as you say, about more than just purely sex) needs to be the basis on which we conduct all interactions.  Gay, straight, bisexual, or however someone thinks of their own sexuality: it shouldn't result in different treatment from someone.

Equally, I am not advocating that we all wander around in some asexual limbo.  Just that we don't have to base simple social interactions on sexuality.  I don't need to know your sexual orientation to tell you the time of day, and equally it shouldn't matter to me what your orientation is unless I am pursuing a different interaction.

Remember that study that said men think about sex some outrageous amount of time like ten seconds out of every minute or something like that?  So, men at least, think about sex all the time practically.  So if your shopkeeper was gay and you walked in, he'd take notice.  If he's straight, he probably wouldn't think about it.  But if he was straight and a woman walked in, he'd think about it.  Men are always speculating about it.  The stereotype of construction workers ogling women as they walk by their work is a stereotype cause it happens alot, appropriate or not.

I think that study has been bastardised and misrepresented enormously.  Nonetheless, I don't think that a shopkeeper is speculating as to whether I am gay or straight right away.  I think instead they are working out if they fancy me or not.  My orientation is of secondary importance, or no importance at all in a casual encounter.  It's all about beauty being in the eye of the beholder.

Your example of stereotyped Construction workers (and I happen to know some well behaved ones to balance that out  ;) ) will be whooping and yelling at lesbians, bisexuals and transvestites, just as readily as straight women.  It's not about the sexuality of the other person, but about their own.

That makes sense in the context of most people, but public celebrities are in another realm all together.  All those nightly entertainment shows thrive on those things and seem to have few boundaries.

See, I differ from the media view here, in that I don't believe appearing in a film, TV show or newspaper instantly voids all right to a private life.  Just because people are interested, doesn't mean it's any of their business.  If Jake wants to be grinning on TV 24 hours a day 7 days a week on the "All Jake Channel" (I'll stop and wait for a few people reading this to wipe the drool off their keyboards :D ) it doesn't mean that anyone has some right to treat him as public property.

Sure, the media does this right now, but it is point blank wrong.  Jake is a man who works in a job that requires publicity.  That doesn't give the media carte Blanche to follow him about and try and work out who he may or may not be sleeping with.  His sexuality may be interesting to fans, but it is not a matter for public record.  We have no right to pry into his life, anymore than he has the right to flick through your web browser history at night, checking up on what you were looking at ("Google: are velociraptors afraid of fire?"; "Google: What to do in case of velociraptor attacks" ; "Google: can velociraptors open doors?").

It is sad that a gay celeb can't feel free to mention their sexuality.  Worse than sad, it's abhorrant to me that such a climate prevails.  On the other hand, if Jake is straight, it's still nobody's business but his own.  People close to him may well know the truth of the matter, but as friends and relatives, it's only right that he shares things with them.  We haven't earned that intimacy with him, and it is perfectly understandable, to me, that he would wish to keep as much of his life as anonymous and secretive, as the rest of us do.

I know sexuality matters and worldwide we are incredibly hung up on what people do with their genitalia, and to whom, and when.  I agree it's the case just now.  I just hope that one day people realise it's not such a big deal and stop feeding the gluttony of the media, granting it the power to invade the private lives of others for the satisfaction of our curiosity.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Lola on February 11, 2007, 05:17:03 PM
I can see by this picture, they are more than friends.
Yeah, that lasted!
Anyway, many women love gay men as friends! 

It did it lasted 2 years!

Quote
He was asked point blank and told the press they were just friends.  So I guess I am just going to take him at his word.

And T.R. Knight never used the "f" word.   

HUH??

Quote
IF he [Jake] is as open as we say, then he would have no reason to deny it.

And I've got a bridge I can sell you in NYC!

He wouldn't have a reason to deny it, see my quote above!

Quote
As for Heath, no I have never thought he was gay.

What about "bi" as I stated?

Nope never thought that either.

Quote
Heath lives in 2007, he has no reason to marry and have a child for any other reason than that he is in love, madly in love, with Michelle, which he has said many many times.

So did Ennis.

No Ennis didn't live in 2007!

My responses are in bold!
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Lola on February 11, 2007, 05:19:12 PM
Is society really as accepting as it claims?


How about it depends where we live, would that be a fair statement?
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Lyle (Mooska) on February 11, 2007, 05:19:22 PM
(http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e298/Slave2Placebo/th_24dix76.jpg)
I think that is doctered isn't it? lol

Why did your mind go there, Lola?
Cause you don't believe it?
Or you are convinced of his sexuality one way or another?
Or you are being provocative?
Play devil's advocate?
Just asking.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Lola on February 11, 2007, 05:20:29 PM
(http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e298/Slave2Placebo/th_24dix76.jpg)
I think that is doctered isn't it? lol

Why did your mind go there, Lola?
Cause you don't believe it?
Or you are convinced of his sexuality one way or another?
Or you are being provocative?
Play devil's advocate?
Just asking.


Because I know that is not a real picture! lol  We can't post fake pictures as proof!  :D


National-NBC) January 30, 2007 - Jake Gyllenhaal's career has been pretty amazing. And now, the dreamy-eyed actor is talking to "GQ" magazine about real life - getting married and having kids.

It looks like now that big sis Maggie is a mom, it's Jake's turn to pass along those talented Gyllenhaal genes. He tells GQ, "I'm definitely thinking about that."

But not so fast - the actor is holding out until the right lady comes along first, of course, "Look, the most important job for a man is to find the right woman. It's the best we can do."


Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: shelber on February 11, 2007, 05:23:29 PM
lol just a note, the pic of jake and heath i did not know it was doctored  ;D my bad
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Lyle (Mooska) on February 11, 2007, 05:24:55 PM
Is society really as accepting as it claims?

If it was, in Hollywood, Brokeback Mountain would have won the best picture oscar last year.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Lola on February 11, 2007, 05:27:22 PM
lol just a note, the pic of jake and heath i did not know it was doctored  ;D my bad

Can someone do one of me and Antonio Banderas?   ;D
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: shelber on February 11, 2007, 05:31:51 PM
Is society really as accepting as it claims?

If it was, in Hollywood, Brokeback Mountain would have won the best picture oscar last year.

i definately agree with this
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Kelpersmek on February 11, 2007, 05:31:54 PM
lol  We can't post fake pictures as proof!  :D


Slight tangent to the discussion.. but...

When I saw this I read it out to Penny and said
"Man, I am sooo tempted to take a photo of myself right now, and photoshop myself into a passionate kiss with Jake.  Then I could post up a 'Omg!  I'm gay and I never knew it!'  ;D "

There was a few seconds for silence and then, in a slightly trembling breathless voice, Penny said
"R-really?  Would you? <drool>"

 ::)


Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Lyle (Mooska) on February 11, 2007, 05:32:12 PM
Quote
National-NBC) January 30, 2007 - Jake Gyllenhaal's career has been pretty amazing. And now, the dreamy-eyed actor is talking to "GQ" magazine about real life - getting married and having kids.

It looks like now that big sis Maggie is a mom, it's Jake's turn to pass along those talented Gyllenhaal genes. He tells GQ, "I'm definitely thinking about that."

But not so fast - the actor is holding out until the right lady comes along first, of course, "Look, the most important job for a man is to find the right woman. It's the best we can do."

Lola, I read an article like that about Sean Hayes.  This is called publicity.  If this was the 60's you'd have read that about Richard Chamberlain.  The 50's--Tab Hunter--the 70's Richard Gere (I talked to John Schelsinger and his boyfriend one time.  He directed Richard Gere in Yanks and told me about Richard and his boyfriends then.  I don't want to sound like a gossip monger or name dropper, but if you believe all these things written in magazines, then you are quite mis-informed about many things you may want to use as proof.)
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: merrobot on February 11, 2007, 05:34:08 PM
It is sad that a gay celeb can't feel free to mention their sexuality.  Worse than sad, it's abhorrant to me that such a climate prevails.  On the other hand, if Jake is straight, it's still nobody's business but his own.  People close to him may well know the truth of the matter, but as friends and relatives, it's only right that he shares things with them.  We haven't earned that intimacy with him, and it is perfectly understandable, to me, that he would wish to keep as much of his life as anonymous and secretive, as the rest of us do.

Actually, I don't keep a lot of my life anonymous and secret and the bits that I do, I do out of fear and shame.  I don't tell people stuff about myself (including my sexual orientation) because I don't believe that I can handle it if they reject me for it.  Because getting down to it, what most of us live in is a society where we are not encouraged to be ourselves and you could argue that by remaining closeted LGBT celebrities are reinforcing that culture.  I think if every single LGBT person came out publicly, then perhaps we could make a real difference but right now there are only a few brave souls out there who really put themselves out of the line and while I salute them for it, it frustrates and saddens me that there are those of us that just don't feel we can do it.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: shelber on February 11, 2007, 05:34:25 PM
heres how un cool i am and another thread drift, i didnt even know what photoshop was until here. lol. i wish i knew how to do it, me and some smexy sandra would be filling out an album in no time  ;D ;) :-*

back to your regular scheduled thread
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Lola on February 11, 2007, 05:41:06 PM
Quote
National-NBC) January 30, 2007 - Jake Gyllenhaal's career has been pretty amazing. And now, the dreamy-eyed actor is talking to "GQ" magazine about real life - getting married and having kids.

It looks like now that big sis Maggie is a mom, it's Jake's turn to pass along those talented Gyllenhaal genes. He tells GQ, "I'm definitely thinking about that."

But not so fast - the actor is holding out until the right lady comes along first, of course, "Look, the most important job for a man is to find the right woman. It's the best we can do."

Lola, I read an article like that about Sean Hayes.  This is called publicity.  If this was the 60's you'd have read that about Richard Chamberlain.  The 50's--Tab Hunter--the 70's Richard Gere (I talked to John Schelsinger and his boyfriend one time.  He directed Richard Gere in Yanks and told me about Richard and his boyfriends then.  I don't want to sound like a gossip monger or name dropper, but if you believe all these things written in magazines, then you are quite mis-informed about many things you may want to use as proof.)

Lyle this is not the 50's or the 60's or the 70's, it is 2007!!!!   And the funny thing is, if he had said "hell yea I am gay" you would have believed it.  But he said "he wants to marry a women and have a family"  So you automatically assume that is for publicity.  I think you have to ask yourself why that is??
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: shelber on February 11, 2007, 05:43:49 PM
Hey, Shelly - I like your style: "Is society really as accepting as it claims?  Discuss"  :-*

Well, the short answer to that question is 'no' in my opinion.  I think that there is a move towards acceptance but the pace is pretty slow.  In a lot of ways society is "tolerant" of homosexuality and bisexuality but not quite "accepting".  I think this is reflected in the way that some countries are introducing legislation around 'hate crimes' based on sexual orientation, civil partnerships or gay marriage and other measures designed to reduce discrimination and promote equality.

However, many of the issues that have been brought up on this thread already are less to do with homophobia but with heterosexism.  Now, while homophobic comments and actions are much more widely condemed in society (i.e. the individual beliefs of the homophobe), heterosexist attitudes are very often overlooked.  This is because society still promotes the ideas that heterosexuality is "the norm", that the nuclear family is something to be aspired to and celebrated, that in some way being gay or lesbian or bisexual is somehow less desirable.  Advertising is a very good example as you so rarely see same-sex couples portrayed in mainstream media campaigns and where they are, it is usually for "shock value".

I remember having a conversation a few months ago where some friends were having a discussion about the adoption of kids by same-sex parents.  One friend said she thought it was a good idea that kids who otherwise wouldn't have homes would be able to do so but that you wouldn't want to put teenagers into homes with gay adoptive parents of their own sex as she had read a study that it "would make it more likely that they would turn out gay".  This really incensed me as her implication was "and if you make it more likely that someone will become gay then it's less appealing that if they turn out straight."  Sadly, I think a lot of people still share this sentiment - they like gay men, lesbians and bisexuals, they understand that "it's not their fault" ( ::)), but ultimately they still have this belief that "it would have been better for them if they had been born straight".  I don't think my friend is homophobic, in many ways she is hugely accepting of all kinds of people, but she is still influenced in subtle ways (as are all of us to a greater or lesser degree) that will take a long time to overcome.

This is progress, there is hope, but it's baby steps.  :)

penny what a great reply! thanks  :-*

here is something that i heard my own mother say

she was working and happens to work with a young man that she affectionately calls the flaming faggot, he was talking about him and his boyfriend wanting to adopt. well she came to the house almost sputtering, because how terrible for a child to be adopted by "those people"

which you know didnt really endure me to telling her that her own daughter was in fact "one of those people"  :)
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Lola on February 11, 2007, 05:46:05 PM
heres how un cool i am and another thread drift, i didnt even know what photoshop was until here. lol. i wish i knew how to do it, me and some smexy sandra would be filling out an album in no time  ;D ;) :-*

back to your regular scheduled thread

(http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d145/cccccarol/sandra_bullock_suede_shoes.jpg)

don't you wish your girlfriend was hot like me?  ;)
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: shelber on February 11, 2007, 05:48:48 PM
heres how un cool i am and another thread drift, i didnt even know what photoshop was until here. lol. i wish i knew how to do it, me and some smexy sandra would be filling out an album in no time  ;D ;) :-*

back to your regular scheduled thread

(http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d145/cccccarol/sandra_bullock_suede_shoes.jpg)

don't you wish your girlfriend was hot like me?  ;)

ahhhh lola i think i may have a weensy teensy bit fallen for ya!!! sandra is hot

but now jeanine is smoldery hawwwwwt, lol put me in the middle and call me a shelly sandwich, lol thanks for the photo!!!  :-*
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: merrobot on February 11, 2007, 05:50:45 PM
penny what a great reply! thanks  :-*

here is something that i heard my own mother say

she was working and happens to work with a young man that she affectionately calls the flaming faggot, he was talking about him and his boyfriend wanting to adopt. well she came to the house almost sputtering, because how terrible for a child to be adopted by "those people"

which you know didnt really endure me to telling her that her own daughter was in face "one of those people"  :)

Oh, that's a tough one.  I don't know where you are at with telling your mother but I would hope that she would still see you as you, and that if you're "one of those people" then "those people" are probably fabulous after all!  But I know that isn't always the way it goes. 

Alan's mother had a hissy fit when he told her that he was dating me but she thinks I'm great now - time can be a great healer too  :D
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Kelpersmek on February 11, 2007, 05:54:26 PM
Actually, I don't keep a lot of my life anonymous and secret and the bits that I do, I do out of fear and shame. 

I don't think that is strictly true.

I think you keep a LOT of your life hidden our of practicality, caution and simply because some things are irrelevant to certain people.  You were the first person I heard use the term "inappropriate self-disclosure".

To me, privacy is important.  You can't disclose things about yourself with all the relevant background very easily.  If for example I was to disclose that in the past month I have built up a huge collection of pictures of legs on my PC, to post into a forum discussing themes surrounding a movie about gay cowboys, I don't most people would understand what that was about.  I'd have to explain first of all the BBM phenomenon, Penny's interest in the forum and community, my own foray into writing and getting to know a few people, the Bar, the Lex hour, the Legs Hour...  and even after all that they might still remain a bit dubious. 

Things only make sense in context, and it can be more effort trying to explain the whole context to people, than simply enjoying the freedom to have private things.  People can only form a relatively simple picture of "who you are" and privacy is a way of filtering out the things you don't want to have to explain to paint a working picture of what sort of person you are.

In yet another way, secrecy is important to keep yourself from harm.  There's a certain owner of winged monkeys who did her damndest to get our physical address: information I am not comfortable with sharing.  I guess that might be classed as "Fear" that some crazy person is going to cause us trouble, but I think merely that it is caution that stops people shring all the details of our private lives. 

Finally some secrets are fun to keep.  Example: 
Secret text: My secret is 'what I am going to be wearing when you stop refreshing this page and come to bed, sweetheart'   ;)


Night night folks!
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Lola on February 11, 2007, 05:55:26 PM
Merrobot my Mother (God love her) never knew any gay people.  But she loved Ellen and she said to me one day "I heard she was a lesbian" I said "yep"  She said "well they must be quite nice"  :D

Shelber now you will have me thinking about Sandra, although I see me more with Sharon Stone.  But I am probably more Kathy Bates type! lol
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: merrobot on February 11, 2007, 05:58:29 PM
Merrobot my Mother (God love her) never knew any gay people.  But she loved Ellen and she said to me one day "I heard she was a lesbian" I said "yep"  She said "well they must be quite nice"  :D


Lol!  Good on your mother, Lola.  My granny read in one of the tabloids that Robbie Williams had said at one of his concerts that he was gay.  Her reaction was (I kid you not) "Now why did he say a thing like that - what woman is going to marry him now?"  ::)
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Lola on February 11, 2007, 06:00:22 PM
LOL that is funny!   Although he was convincing in Bird Cage.  I am probably the only person in the world who cried at that movie.  :'(

Actually Nathan Lane's character reminded me alot of my Mom! lol
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: shelber on February 11, 2007, 06:03:15 PM
here you go lola as you were so generous with the sandra photo

(http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f161/delfinka17/th_101400.jpg)


as for ellen, when my mom found out she was lesbian she said thats too bad her show was funny ::)

and one more for ya

(http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k28/pollo28/th_sharon_stone.jpg)
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: shelber on February 11, 2007, 06:05:50 PM

Oh, that's a tough one.  I don't know where you are at with telling your mother but I would hope that she would still see you as you, and that if you're "one of those people" then "those people" are probably fabulous after all!  But I know that isn't always the way it goes. 

Alan's mother had a hissy fit when he told her that he was dating me but she thinks I'm great now - time can be a great healer too  :D

i havent had the deisre to tell her, besides she snoops enough through my stuff that she probably knows already lol
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Lyle (Mooska) on February 11, 2007, 06:08:40 PM
Lyle this is not the 50's or the 60's or the 70's, it is 2007!!!!   And the funny thing is, if he had said "hell yea I am gay" you would have believed it.  But he said "he wants to marry a women and have a family"  So you automatically assume that is for publicity.  I think you have to ask yourself why that is??

Yes, it's 2007 but things have not changed all that much IS MY POINT.  If so, Lance Bass and Neil Patrick Harris and T.R. Knight would have come out themselves and not been outed.

In the climate of this country I WOULD believe someone who comes out and says they are gay.  There is absolutely no reason that anyone would do that unless they are.  And it would be on the cover, not the inside.

Yet, there are many people who WON'T come out that ARE gay in 2007!  You seem to think that they will and I have told you about some who will NOT.  Why don't Richard Gere, John Travolta and Sean Hayes own up to their lives?  You know why.  Actors hire professional publicists for a reason.  So, for you to think that everything written in magazines and quoted by celebrities is fact, then you are simply naive.  And you must ask yourself why that is as well. 
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: merrobot on February 11, 2007, 06:13:53 PM
i havent had the deisre to tell her, besides she snoops enough through my stuff that she probably knows already lol

I can understand that.  When I was 15 I plastered my walls with kd lang posters but my mother still didn't want to see it! ::)

I'm really enjoying this discussion - thanks for starting this thread!  I have to go to bed now but hopefully there will be some more interesting comments for me to digest over breakfast!  :-*
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Lola on February 11, 2007, 06:15:00 PM
You know the scarey thing about Sharon (looking at those pics) is her and I are the same age! lol

Lyle if you don't know the difference between coming out in 1950 and coming out in 2007, I don't know what to say.  And of course things have changed, OMG are you kidding me?  :-\

Maybe Richard Gere and John Travolta don't come out, because THEY AREN'T gay, there is a thought.

As for Sean Hayes, I don't know what he says.  Personally I always assumed he was gay.    Love him by the way!

And as TR said, he didn't think it was news, and he hoped it was not the most interesting thing about him.........which it isn't.

P.S.  I adore KD Lang, have you seen her lately, she looks sooooooooooo happy!
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Lyle (Mooska) on February 11, 2007, 06:15:55 PM
(http://idata.over-blog.com/0/16/26/74/jacob-benjamin-gyllenhaal/jake-gyllenhaal-austin-nichols.jpg)(http://image2.sina.com.cn/ent/s/u/p/2006-02-13/U1527P28T3D984147F358DT20060213144453.jpg)
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Lyle (Mooska) on February 11, 2007, 06:22:21 PM
Lola, have you been processing ANYTHING I have been saying?  I will respond to one thing you wrote.

Maybe Richard Gere and John Travolta don't come out, because THEY AREN'T gay, there is a thought.

The director, John Schlesinger, who is gay, told me about Richard Gere and about his boyfriends on the set of Yanks among other things.  John Travolta has asked my waiter friend out on dates.  If that's not gay then nothing will convince you.  If you choose not to believe it, then you must ask why that is.


Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Lola on February 11, 2007, 06:26:12 PM
Okay Lyle, I slept with Jake last night and he swore to me he is straight, if you don't believe it I have to ask why?   I don't listen to what people say about others, anyone can say anything.


(http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d145/cccccarol/Jennifer_Aniston_Ja_214632m.jpg)
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Lyle (Mooska) on February 11, 2007, 06:38:17 PM
Okay Lyle, I slept with Jake last night and he swore to me he is straight, if you don't believe it I have to ask why?   I don't listen to what people say about others, anyone can say anything.

Well, if you don't respect an oscar winning director who was gay and worked with Richard Gere, if you think my friend is lying to me about John Travolta, yet you are saying you believe the article you quoted above (where people can say anything, and I assume that includes you) then that's that I guess.

I think if I said the sky is blue and the grass is green you would point out that the grass is blue in Kentucky and the sky is yellow in Montana.

P.S.:  Were you on the O.J. jury?  They sure wouldn't have been able to convince you of anything!
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Lola on February 11, 2007, 06:43:15 PM
Lyle give your head a shake, I don't know that the director said anything, I don't know that your friend met John Travolta.  Anymore than you know if I slept with Jake or not.

And people didn't say anything, Jake said I want to meet a woman, marry and have a child, he said that.  It was not hearsay!!

But yea sure he could have been lying.  :P
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: shelber on February 11, 2007, 06:45:05 PM
night penny, thanks for hanging out!!

ok i feel we should have a coffee and a smoke break, stretch our legs and typing fingers...what say everyone?
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Lyle (Mooska) on February 11, 2007, 06:59:29 PM
Lyle give your head a shake, I don't know that the director said anything, I don't know that your friend met John Travolta.  Anymore than you know if I slept with Jake or not.

YOU don't know the director said anything, but I DO!  I was talking with him.  So are you calling me a liar?  AND him?

If they had said it to YOU, would you believe it?  I am respectfully relaying information from credible people and for whatever reason you are discounting and/or dismissing it out of hand because anyone could say anything, and in my opinion, thereby calling all three of us liars.  I don't know how or why you choose to believe what you believe (apparently magazines don't fall into the say anything category and are trustworthy sources of info to you), but I don't appreciate the fact you willing dismiss things as though I've just made them up out of thin air.  I do not do that and things that I say are known by me to be the truth based on my own experiences or reputable sources.

Now, Shelber, I will break and stretch...
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: shelber on February 11, 2007, 07:05:40 PM
i think everyone has been posting some great replies, and i feel really honoured that you all have been so open with experiences and whats in your brain.

i may be wrong, but it seems a little tense-a-roo, another reason i had started this thread was because of people more or less getting shut down in the other threads, and it appeared to me that members still wanted to discuss this kind of stuff. i dont want people to have bad feelings towards eachother, cause that would make me sad. and really its all about me, lol.
 ;D :-* :-* :-* ;D
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Lola on February 11, 2007, 07:19:37 PM
Things are always tense with me and Lyle, it is just the way it is.

I am suppose to believe what he says, but not what comes right out of Jake's mouth.  Sorry can't figure that one out.  :-\

Off to bed, night everyone, sweet dreams!  :)
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: shelber on February 11, 2007, 07:20:43 PM
g'night lola

thanks for chatting, i really enjoyed you and your posts! :-* :-* :-* :-* :-*
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: lowcountrygirl on February 11, 2007, 07:24:28 PM
I mean, everyone knows that Sean Hayes is gay, but he says it's no ones business.  Does he say that to his friends as well?  John Travolta sues people saying he's gay, but that doesn't stop him from asking men like my waiter friend Rick out on dates.

Gay celebrities may say their sexuality is no one's business, but that implies they only tell certain people or they are completely closeted.  For straight celebrities it's not like that.

Lyle, I love the points you're making and it is SOOOOO wonderful that someone is expressing what I think in an articulate way and that I am not so alone (as I have felt occasionally) in saying them!

And "wow" about John Travolta! Your waiter friend has been quite the resource, hasn't he?
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: lowcountrygirl on February 11, 2007, 07:25:48 PM
I'll tell you that in 2000-2001 I was well acquainted with the RCA/Columbia guy in charge of their video department.  He had met Ang Lee (the guy and Ang are both Chinese) and he matter of factly told me that Ang is gay, as is he.  All of a sudden it seems Ang wasn't last year!  People would say "he has a wife" (like they didn't even see BBM???).  Really, I was confused.  Maybe that's why Ang does movies about people hiding their true identities--Wedding Banquet, Sense & Sensibility, The Hulk, The Ice Storm, BBM etc.  Maybe that's why he dedicated BBM to his wife...similar situation? 

I have suspected that about Ang but was afraid to say it here on the DC.

Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: lowcountrygirl on February 11, 2007, 07:28:43 PM
I have excellent sources that know Heath is bisexual.  No one ever speculates about Heath.  (I have no reason to doubt them.)

Thought that, too, of course, but I'd love to know more about your excellent sources!

And Lyle, I am sending you a big cyber hug and smooch!! :-*

Jeanine
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: lowcountrygirl on February 11, 2007, 07:35:45 PM
National-NBC) January 30, 2007 - Jake Gyllenhaal's career has been pretty amazing. And now, the dreamy-eyed actor is talking to "GQ" magazine about real life - getting married and having kids.

It looks like now that big sis Maggie is a mom, it's Jake's turn to pass along those talented Gyllenhaal genes. He tells GQ, "I'm definitely thinking about that."

But not so fast - the actor is holding out until the right lady comes along first, of course, "Look, the most important job for a man is to find the right woman. It's the best we can do."



That article is doctored.

When asked about children, he said he'd been thinking about it but didn't use the word "definitely" for emphasis and then, he went into a mini-lecture about the importance of choosing the right mother. It was a fairly classic Jake dodge!
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: shelber on February 11, 2007, 07:36:15 PM
well all, i got to step out of here for a bit, RL had the nerve to interrupt!!!

hey jeanine you sweet thing you!! :-* :-* :-* :-* :-*, i am glad that you popped back in, there have been so many insights and posts that i know you would like! and agree with

see ya all soon  :-*
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: lowcountrygirl on February 11, 2007, 07:38:01 PM
heres how un cool i am and another thread drift, i didnt even know what photoshop was until here. lol. i wish i knew how to do it, me and some smexy sandra would be filling out an album in no time  ;D ;) :-*

back to your regular scheduled thread

Oh, I just had a thought about you and Beyonce!

*drools*
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: lowcountrygirl on February 11, 2007, 07:38:59 PM
And the funny thing is, if he had said "hell yea I am gay" you would have believed it.  But he said "he wants to marry a women and have a family"  So you automatically assume that is for publicity.  I think you have to ask yourself why that is??

He DID NOT say that!
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: shelber on February 11, 2007, 07:39:37 PM
heres how un cool i am and another thread drift, i didnt even know what photoshop was until here. lol. i wish i knew how to do it, me and some smexy sandra would be filling out an album in no time  ;D ;) :-*

back to your regular scheduled thread

Oh, I just had a thought about you and Beyonce!

*drools*


well now how can i focus on RL when you say somthing like that.... ;)
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: lowcountrygirl on February 11, 2007, 07:45:28 PM
Coming soon ... the direct quote from the GQ article, where Jake played a little sleight-of-hand with the children question...

Edited to add: turns out he did use the word "definitely"...

"Inevitably, thinking about his sister and her recent baby, I ask if Jake, too, plans to have children. 'I'm definitely thinking about that,' he says. 'Look--the most important job for a man is to find the right woman. It's the best we can do. ... I've noticed in life that the mother, first, has a primary job--and as a father, our job is to pick a caring, smart, mindful woman'"



Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: shelber on February 11, 2007, 07:49:32 PM
Coming soon ... the direct quote from the GQ article, where Jake played sleight of hand with the children question...


ahhh babe! you are such a tasty morsel, cant wait to see it
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: lowcountrygirl on February 11, 2007, 08:27:19 PM
Coming soon ... the direct quote from the GQ article, where Jake played sleight of hand with the children question...


ahhh babe! you are such a tasty morsel, cant wait to see it

Thank you, babe!
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: graylockV on February 11, 2007, 09:12:38 PM
Wow shelber - you have really done a terrific job of waking people up - with your new thread!  Look at all the postings already.

Not too many years ago I would get all worked up when someone in the news would either come out of the closet or be outed.  Maybe it's just the passage of time - but now I really don't give a shit one way or the other.  If Jake is or isn't gay - well, I say - unless you are his family or friend - it is superfluous.  I would hate to see his career set back - but I don't think that - if were actually closeted - he would have gone near a project like Brokeback Mountain.  Heath either, for that matter.  And lets not forget that some people are very sexually intrepid and will try a lot of things - more than once - and still not consider themselves, in this instance, to be gay.  I say - what are your fantasies?  That's really how you can tell, IMO. 

But as to the basic question - no, society is not accepting or honest when it comes to gay and lesbian people.  Things have improved over the last twenty years because a lot of homosexual people just couldn't take the BS anymore.  But it's better if you have already made your millions before you come out, if you know what i mean. 

Because it is too easy to attribute negative events as being because you are openly gay it can become a crutch to explain everything, and avoid looking at your real shortcomings.  However, we know too many instances where a person comes out of the closet and they are struck off the Christmas card list, so to speak.  So sadly, it does make a difference to others in our culture at large, even if it does not to me.

Around ten years ago there was a play - I have forgotten its name - that had as its premise the idea that some form of genetic testing had become available that would be capable of determining whether a fetus would eventually develop into a homosexual person after birth.   A "liberal" family has its supposed acceptance of gay people called into question when a daughter finds herself pregnant and the "test" shows that the baby will be gay.  To abort or not to abort?  After all, everyone in the play - even other gay people - acknowledges that growing up gay or lesbian can be very difficult, so wouldn't it be better to abort the fetus and try again?

The play was a flop - but I thought the premise was really interesting.  Many people who are pro gay rights are also pro-choice.  Of course one could say that it would be better if prospective parents accepted their child's sexuality from the get-go.  And the kid would not have to endure the anxiety of coming out, since everyone would expect him/her to be gay.  Still, perhaps other justifications would be given - but if for no other reason than a fear that your child will be treated badly by a hostile culture - I suspect there would be a lot of terminated pregnancies of prospective gay children if a genetic test of some sort really did become a reality.

Just some thoughts on your provacative question, shelbar.

Thanks again.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: shelber on February 11, 2007, 09:27:21 PM
Wow shelber - you have really done a terrific job of waking people up - with your new thread!  Look at all the postings already.

Not too many years ago I would get all worked up when someone in the news would either come out of the closet or be outed.  Maybe it's just the passage of time - but now I really don't give a shit one way or the other.  If Jake is or isn't gay - well, I say - unless you are his family or friend - it is superfluous.  I would hate to see his career set back - but I don't think that - if were actually closeted - he would have gone near a project like Brokeback Mountain.  Heath either, for that matter.  And lets not forget that some people are very sexually intrepid and will try a lot of things - more than once - and still not consider themselves, in this instance, to be gay.  I say - what are your fantasies?  That's really how you can tell, IMO. 

But as to the basic question - no, society is not accepting or honest when it comes to gay and lesbian people.  Things have improved over the last twenty years because a lot of homosexual people just couldn't take the BS anymore.  But it's better if you have already made your millions before you come out, if you know what i mean. 

Because it is too easy to attribute negative events as being because you are openly gay it can become a crutch to explain everything, and avoid looking at your real shortcomings.  However, we know too many instances where a person comes out of the closet and they are struck off the Christmas card list, so to speak.  So sadly, it does make a difference to others in our culture at large, even if it does not to me.

Around ten years ago there was a play - I have forgotten its name - that had as its premise the idea that some form of genetic testing had become available that would be capable of determining whether a fetus would eventually develop into a homosexual person after birth.   A "liberal" family has its supposed acceptance of gay people called into question when a daughter finds herself pregnant and the "test" shows that the baby will be gay.  To abort or not to abort?  After all, everyone in the play - even other gay people - acknowledges that growing up gay or lesbian can be very difficult, so wouldn't it be better to abort the fetus and try again?

The play was a flop - but I thought the premise was really interesting.  Many people who are pro gay rights are also pro-choice.  Of course one could say that it would be better if prospective parents accepted their child's sexuality from the get-go.  And the kid would not have to endure the anxiety of coming out, since everyone would expect him/her to be gay.  Still, perhaps other justifications would be given - but if for no other reason than a fear that your child will be treated badly by a hostile culture - I suspect there would be a lot of terminated pregnancies of prospective gay children if a genetic test of some sort really did become a reality.

Just some thoughts on your provacative question, shelbar.

Thanks again.

thank you!

and thank you for all your thoughts, i will get to bolding the ones i happen to like the most in a bit!!
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Lyle (Mooska) on February 12, 2007, 12:05:23 AM
Around ten years ago there was a play - I have forgotten its name - that had as its premise the idea that some form of genetic testing had become available that would be capable of determining whether a fetus would eventually develop into a homosexual person after birth.   A "liberal" family has its supposed acceptance of gay people called into question when a daughter finds herself pregnant and the "test" shows that the baby will be gay.  To abort or not to abort?  After all, everyone in the play - even other gay people - acknowledges that growing up gay or lesbian can be very difficult, so wouldn't it be better to abort the fetus and try again?

The play was also made into a film--I believe with the same name.  It's called The Twilight of the Golds and stars, among others, Faye Dunaway, Jennifer Beals, Garry Marshall,   Brendan Fraser, John Schlesinger,   Jon Tenney, Rosie O'Donnell
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: merrobot on February 12, 2007, 03:09:48 AM
It was a fairly classic Jake dodge!

And he dodges a lot more than most people realise - the man is a master at it!  I read the GQ article and thought "he's 26, why is he talking about kids and finding the right mother and stuff".  And then I realised that just because you think about something doesn't mean you are actually going to do it (I think about the Minogue sisters on a regular basis but it ain't never gonna happen  :D) and that just because you "find the right mother" for your child doesn't mean that you have to have sex with her or marry her.  After all, didn't Jodie Foster reportedly have her child with a man who has an IQ in the 'genius' range and Melissa Etheridge & Julie Cypher have kids with a family friend.

Our concept of what constitutes family and parenting is fundamentally changing so when Jake says he's "thinking about it" (because when you see cute new babies, that can happen) he probably is - but that doesn't mean he's off looking for some "caring, smart, mindful woman" to reproduce with. 
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: merrobot on February 12, 2007, 03:28:01 AM
The play was a flop - but I thought the premise was really interesting.  Many people who are pro gay rights are also pro-choice.  Of course one could say that it would be better if prospective parents accepted their child's sexuality from the get-go.  And the kid would not have to endure the anxiety of coming out, since everyone would expect him/her to be gay.  Still, perhaps other justifications would be given - but if for no other reason than a fear that your child will be treated badly by a hostile culture - I suspect there would be a lot of terminated pregnancies of prospective gay children if a genetic test of some sort really did become a reality.

I hadn't heard of that play, the premise is indeed interesting.  Although I agree that many people who are pro gay rights are probably also pro-choice I don't know that it means they would necessarily opt to terminate a pregnancy on the basis of sexual orientation.  Because that has been around in a different form, under the Nazi regime, and it was called euthanasia.  I don't know many people who are pro-gay and support eugenics, the two seem poles apart.  To say that you wouldn't want to bring a child into the world for fear of them being treated badly is a cop out.  People are treated badly for all sorts of reasons - your job as a parent is to support and prepare your child as best you can to deal with whatever life throws at them and that is all you can do.  On a similar note, the onus should be on society changing to support that child not the other way around.

I'm going to get off my soapbox now - I'm getting vertigo  :D
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: zth on February 12, 2007, 05:44:05 AM
OK…. I will try to give my answer to what I understand as the main question.

First of all, I think that society is NOT really accepting as it claims.

I have talked to people who say “Noooo, I have no problem with gays, everything is fine, they are humans just like us, they must have the same rights…”.
But of course when child adoption comes up, ooooh, that’s different! Those same people change their open-minded-version. They say “OK, we are fine with gays, but we don’t accept gays adopting a child!”

HOW CRAZY IS THAT?   ???   >:(   :o

And when I ask “why”, the answer is : “Because the child will get the WRONG examples”. “The child will become gay!” !!!
As if being gay is wrong, or a disease!
As if people BECOME gay, because of what their parents show them!

As for Jake… I personally don’t like it when people see a person on TV, or on the street, and point at him and say: “He is gay”.
I never saw anybody doing this with someone straight.
”Hey! Did you see that singer on stage? He is straight!”
So for me, commenting on only a gay’s sexuality in this way, is discriminative.

People who do that in front of me, do it for some specific reason.
For example, if one has a “girly voice”, they will say he is gay.
But this is labeling, and categorizing. Not only gays have “girly voices”.
Not all gays have “girly voices”. It is not bad for a MAN (gay or straight) to have a “girly voice”.

If someone sees a man with a girly voice, and wants to comment on that, then he should say “Look, this man has a girly voice”, and NOT “Look, that man is gay”.

So calling someone gay because of his voice, his clothes, the way he moves his hands, the way he speaks, the way he laughs, the way he stands, is like saying that all gays do those same things, no straights (should)do those things, and for a man to do those things is bad, therefore we use the word “gay” as a bad word.

I hope I make any sense.   :-\

I have no problem discussing someone’s sexuality just because of curiosity. This is fine. Exaple: “Do you know if Jake is straight or gay?”. “I think he is gay”. ”Oh no! Any chances that he might be a bi? I was planning to make a move…”   ::)

Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Lola on February 12, 2007, 07:46:32 AM
Coming soon ... the direct quote from the GQ article, where Jake played a little sleight-of-hand with the children question...

Edited to add: turns out he did use the word "definitely"...


"Inevitably, thinking about his sister and her recent baby, I ask if Jake, too, plans to have children. 'I'm definitely thinking about that,' he says. 'Look--the most important job for a man is to find the right woman. It's the best we can do. ... I've noticed in life that the mother, first, has a primary job--and as a father, our job is to pick a caring, smart, mindful woman'"

Thanks for correcting yourself!!

And I was thinking last night...............Is society really as accepting as it seems?

I really do believe 100% it depends on where you live.

I have been following the Daily Sheet quite closely lately, and there have been many profiles on members who have never had a problem with being gay.  Not one, nada, zilch, nothing.

We also have many members in long term happy relationships, 20 to 30 years.  They live in harmony with their partners, and society is not bothering them in the least.

So I really do think it is depends on where you live.  I am Canadian, we are very liberal in our views, gay people get married here and adopt.   We have alot of posters from Europe, things are very different there.  It even seems to vary greatly from one American state to the next.

Oh and there are millions of gay couples where one or the other partner is divorced and has custody of their children, so I don't think gay couples with kids is anything new.   
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Lyle (Mooska) on February 12, 2007, 11:33:58 AM
Today's TDS article about gay actors in Hollywood has an answer to your posed question of "Is society really as accepting as it claims":

Some gay actors say that while the American public’s comfort level has improved considerably, the entertainment industry hasn't caught up. It may be 2007, they say, but the vibe inside studio casting offices can feel surprisingly like 1957.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Kelpersmek on February 12, 2007, 11:47:27 AM
As for Jake… I personally don’t like it when people see a person on TV, or on the street, and point at him and say: “He is gay”.
I never saw anybody doing this with someone straight.
”Hey! Did you see that singer on stage? He is straight!”
So for me, commenting on only a gay’s sexuality in this way, is discriminative.


Actually, although I agree with you, I have had this happen to me.

I was dancing in a club when a couple of gay friends pointed at my frenzied graceless flapping and remarked loudly "Spot the straight guy."

Now, it was done in good humour, but it is exactly the same sentiment that is underlying.  Many gay guys have very stereotypical characteristics, just as many straight guys do, and if one sexuality is in prevelance in a given area it seems to lead to people remarking on these obvious differences.* 


*This is not to say a guy can't be gay without displaying any of the charactatristics ascribed, nor that guys with high voices and relaxed movements can't be straight (although where I live the inherent homophobia makes it uncommon for straight guys not to 'address' anything in their behaviour which could identify them as possibly homosexual, and replace it with over-the-top 'macho' compensation).
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: shelber on February 12, 2007, 02:25:34 PM
Coming soon ... the direct quote from the GQ article, where Jake played a little sleight-of-hand with the children question...

Edited to add: turns out he did use the word "definitely"...


"Inevitably, thinking about his sister and her recent baby, I ask if Jake, too, plans to have children. 'I'm definitely thinking about that,' he says. 'Look--the most important job for a man is to find the right woman. It's the best we can do. ... I've noticed in life that the mother, first, has a primary job--and as a father, our job is to pick a caring, smart, mindful woman'"

Thanks for correcting yourself!!

And I was thinking last night...............Is society really as accepting as it seems?

I really do believe 100% it depends on where you live.

I have been following the Daily Sheet quite closely lately, and there have been many profiles on members who have never had a problem with being gay.  Not one, nada, zilch, nothing.

We also have many members in long term happy relationships, 20 to 30 years.  They live in harmony with their partners, and society is not bothering them in the least.

So I really do think it is depends on where you live.  I am Canadian, we are very liberal in our views, gay people get married here and adopt.    We have alot of posters from Europe, things are very different there.  It even seems to vary greatly from one American state to the next.

Oh and there are millions of gay couples where one or the other partner is divorced and has custody of their children, so I don't think gay couples with kids is anything new.   

i am canadian too, lol i just unfortunately  am gay and live in alberta, conservative province with small minded people, who can not seem to live outside the box. it does have a little to do with where you live, but then again where you live also has access to where everyone else lives.

i am not sure how many folks here are familiar with scripture passages, and please lets not turn this into a argument about religion, thats not what i am trying to do, but so far, all the "accepting" folks i have met have turned out to be "wolves in sheep clothing" lol, thats all i got for now, but i did want to say thanks for getting the thread back on track everyone  :-* :-* :-*
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Lola on February 12, 2007, 02:39:43 PM
Well I live in Ontario.  And sometimes my husband and I will go downtown Toronto and we think we may be the ONLY straight people! lol   And even out in the burbs, we have a ton of gay friends, they live quite nicely in amongst everyone else, as they should.

Well we know religous people can be some of the biggest hypocrites around.  I read a article the other day saying Brokeback Mountain was banned from being shown in Utah and had been rated O, which apparently meant Morally Offensive.  Now aren't Mormon's religious?

So yea there is no doubt, some people still have a problem with it.  But not everyone!


I wish some of the people who have never had a bad experience, people in their 40's and 50's (from this board) would drop in, maybe they will.  :)
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Tia on February 12, 2007, 06:30:36 PM
zth,  I agree with you on the adoption or raising kids issue. No family is perfect but what a child really needs is loving parents. Besides it's not gay people who have brought all these kids in foster care into the world.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: lowcountrygirl on February 13, 2007, 09:54:45 AM
It was a fairly classic Jake dodge!

And he dodges a lot more than most people realise - the man is a master at it! 

I agree! It's a skill of his that I greatly admire!!
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: lowcountrygirl on February 13, 2007, 10:02:36 AM
We also have many members in long term happy relationships, 20 to 30 years.  They live in harmony with their partners, and society is not bothering them in the least.

If they live in America, I doubt that's true, at least not 100% of those 20-30 years!
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Osprey on February 13, 2007, 10:44:52 AM
Ok, I guess that I had better jump in on this one. ;D  I think that I can maybe shed a little light.

Marty and I, the man who has been the center of my universe for the last 14 years, live openly as a gay couple in a small Mormon town in north eastern Utah.  Or, as we affectionately call it, Outer Mormonia.  We are deeply involved in the community and are among its most successful businessmen.  In all of those fourteen years we have never had one seconds problem in any way shape nor form.  We are utterly accepted.  I am sure that a lot of that has to do with the fact that we have earned the respect of our community by refusing to allow our orientation to be an issue.  We both come from old Main Line Mormon families that go back to the founding of this valley in 1872.  My great great grandfather was sherriff here from 1880-1884 and was the only man to ever arrest Butch Cassidy.  He was drunk and my great great grandfather arrested him for vagrancy.  Marty's blood line goes back as far as mine.  His great great grandfather was a Mormon Polygamist of some renown. 

Neither of us are LDS of course, as that is not something we feel a need for.  We are Christian and attend a small Episcopal Church when we feel like it.  There also, we are made to feel utterly welcome. 

I think that our example goes to show it is not who you are that is as important as how you live your life.  Your values, your standards, your contributions that make the biggest difference in how you are regarded in your community.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Lola on February 13, 2007, 10:58:22 AM
I think that our example goes to show it is not who you are that is as important as how you live your life.  Your values, your standards, your contributions that make the biggest difference in how you are regarded in your community.

Very well said sweetie!! 
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: lowcountrygirl on February 13, 2007, 11:16:55 AM
But many, many gay people here in America do not have that experience no matter how wonderfully they live their lives!

I'm glad you guys do. It's so unusual as to be noteworthy!


Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: cabin on February 13, 2007, 11:17:06 AM
We also have many members in long term happy relationships, 20 to 30 years.  They live in harmony with their partners, and society is not bothering them in the least.

If they live in America, I doubt that's true, at least not 100% of those 20-30 years!



lowcoutnrygirl:

I don't know where you live or where you've been hiding, that you haven't met us.

Long term gay relationships (28 years)  have been around much long than your and my ages combined, honey.   

And as for jake being gay or not, or accepting it or not,   just mind your own business and do something other than debate someone's sexuality.  Let him be, for gods sakes.

Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: cabin on February 13, 2007, 11:18:32 AM
But many, many gay people here in America do not have that experience no matter how wonderfully they live their lives!

I'm glad you guys do. It's so unusual as to be noteworthy!





Yes, dear.  But they have the opportunity and the choice.   I did.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Lola on February 13, 2007, 11:34:53 AM
Gerry (Cabin) I know how happy you are.  I know there are many, many people on this board living in long term happy gay relationships.  I know, I have spoke to them.  And you are a perfect example.

And I know many in real life (not that this is not real life, lol) 

I think Marty said it best:

..it is not who you are that is as important as how you live your life.  Your values, your standards, your contributions that make the biggest difference in how you are regarded in your community.

Also as you said, long term gay relationships have been around forever.  Raymond Burr comes to mind:

Raymond Burr lived with his partner, and long-time companion, former actor Robert Benevides, for 35 years until Burr's death. At the time of Burr's death, Sonoma County residents were well acquainted with Burr and Benevides, who together owned and operated their vineyard in the Dry Creek Valley, and regarded them as any other married couple.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: lowcountrygirl on February 13, 2007, 11:44:57 AM
We also have many members in long term happy relationships, 20 to 30 years.  They live in harmony with their partners, and society is not bothering them in the least.

If they live in America, I doubt that's true, at least not 100% of those 20-30 years!



Long term gay relationships (28 years)  have been around much long than your and my ages combined, honey.   


Of course they have! I think you misunderstood what I said.

What I said was that I doubted there were couples in America, who had never in all of that time had any kind of negative reaction from society.

Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Lyle (Mooska) on February 13, 2007, 11:48:32 AM
We also have many members in long term happy relationships, 20 to 30 years.  They live in harmony with their partners, and society is not bothering them in the least.

Depends on what you mean by not bothering them.  If I've had a hard day and come back and turn on the tv and I see stories about people arguing wether or not I have the right to marry, of Isaiah Washington using slurs or of gay rights measures defeated in elections, or expressions of homophobia etc. -- that is part of society and it is bothersome.  It makes people always have to live with burdens not of their own choosing and that is society bothering us.

Long term gay relationships (28 years)  have been around much long than your and my ages combined, honey.

I don't think lowcountrygirl was disputing long term relationships, just that she had a question of the validity of Lola's statement that in all that time they'd been living in harmony with no societal effects.  J&E were together 20 years with many societal effects.  Again, Lola has said it can depend on where you live and your own situation.  Example:  I was reading a book about gay and lesbian soldiers in WWII.  Some actually were open about it and the rest of the people around them were not terribly bothered by it and they led relatively nice lives in the military context.  Whereas if those same people had been in another place they might have been harrassed, discharged, put in prison, bashed, raped, a victim of witch hunts, etc.  These people's lives were basically influenced by the tolerance of the other people around them.

And as for jake being gay or not, or accepting it or not,   just mind your own business and do something other than debate someone's sexuality.  Let him be, for gods sakes.

Hi, Cabin!  MEOW!!!  Hey, Ted Casablanca makes a living off this!

[P.S.:  If anyone's interested that book I was reading is called Coming Out Under Fire by Alan Berube.]
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: lowcountrygirl on February 13, 2007, 11:48:55 AM
Gerry (Cabin) I know how happy you are.  I know there are many, many people on this board living in long term happy gay relationships.  I know, I have spoke to them.  And you are a perfect example.

And I know many in real life (not that this is not real life, lol) 

I think Marty said it best:

..it is not who you are that is as important as how you live your life.  Your values, your standards, your contributions that make the biggest difference in how you are regarded in your community.

Also as you said, long term gay relationships have been around forever.  Raymond Burr comes to mind:

Raymond Burr lived with his partner, and long-time companion, former actor Robert Benevides, for 35 years until Burr's death. At the time of Burr's death, Sonoma County residents were well acquainted with Burr and Benevides, who together owned and operated their vineyard in the Dry Creek Valley, and regarded them as any other married couple.

That was not what I was talking about at all. Indeed, the topic of this thread is whether or not society is as aceepting as it sometimes claims.

Not whether or not gay people have long-term relationships, because of course they do!

Raymond Burr is also an example of society not being as open ... his sexuality was an open secret. He didn't take publicity pics holding his partner's hand. That is what we were discussing on this thread.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Kelpersmek on February 13, 2007, 11:49:10 AM
Once again Shelly, *great* thread topic!

Things I wanted to pick up on from the latest interesting thoughts:

Quote
Well we know religious people can be some of the biggest hypocrites around.  I read a article the other day saying Brokeback Mountain was banned from being shown in Utah and had been rated O, which apparently meant Morally Offensive.  Now aren't Mormon's religious?

While I wholeheartedly agree that some religious people are exceptionally hypocritical, I don't think that your example qualifies.  I have never read the Book of Mormon, but unless it has specific passages which negate the scripture laid out in Leviticus, then it is in keeping with their faith to brand BBM as "Morally Offensive".  The Bible states that for a man to lie with another man as with a woman is an abomination in the eyes of God, and further advises that 'their blood shall be upon their own heads'.  So to me what the Mormons of Utah did was not hypocritical, but instead being true to their beliefs.  If any Mormons or scholars here have a better insight into the Mormon faith, please correct me on that.

We both come from old Main Line Mormon families that go back to the founding of this valley in 1872.  My great great grandfather was sherriff here from 1880-1884 and was the only man to ever arrest Butch Cassidy.  He was drunk and my great great grandfather arrested him for vagrancy.  Marty's blood line goes back as far as mine.

I find that fascinating, and I think it brings in another aspect of the "Homophobia is strongly geographical" .  Different people also find that they don't experience homophobia because of their families and ties to a community.  I think it's about breaking down the homophobic climate by associating with gay people in a positive way.  That sounds like some kind of Oprah feel-good-crud to me, but what I mean is it's easy to hate an idea or an imaginary stereotype, and much harder to keep up an irrational hate for people you can't actually find any fault with.  It's like the previous story of Lola's mother who decided lesbians can't be all bad, because she liked Ellen, and she turned out to be gay. 

Certainly some people are more than capable of continuing to be narrow minded and invent reasons to hate people; but on the whole it seems a lot of folks are homophobic through ignorance and unfamiliarity.  If they actually meet a few openly gay people, that can change. 

So, to my mind it's a combination of a reasonable area and exposing people to the idea that gay people aren't green two-headed monsters.

Quote
I don't know where you live or where you've been hiding, that you haven't met us.
Hey, it's a big world out there!
I don't know if I've met you before either, so... howdy  ;)
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: lowcountrygirl on February 13, 2007, 11:51:04 AM
I don't think lowcountrygirl was disputing long term relationships, just that she had a question of the validity of Lola's statement that in all that time they'd been living in harmony with no societal effects. 

That's exactly, right, Lyle! Thanks!!

And while I'm at it, thanks for all your posts on this topic.

Jeanine
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: lowcountrygirl on February 13, 2007, 11:52:25 AM
Quote
I don't know where you live or where you've been hiding, that you haven't met us.
Hey, it's a big world out there!
I don't know if I've met you before either, so... howdy  ;)

LOL! :-*
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Lyle (Mooska) on February 13, 2007, 12:02:50 PM
I have never read the Book of Mormon, but unless it has specific passages which negate the scripture laid out in Leviticus, then it is in keeping with their faith to brand BBM as "Morally Offensive".  The Bible states that for a man to lie with another man as with a woman is an abomination in the eyes of God, and further advises that 'their blood shall be upon their own heads'.  So to me what the Mormons of Utah did was not hypocritical, but instead being true to their beliefs.

I absolutely don't want to get in a religious topic on this thread--someone could start a whole thread about that, but I recommend a book called "What the Bible Really Says About Homosexuality".

Emphasis on really.

Speaking of society not bothering us, it seems every time a religious person uses that biblical passage their intention is DESIGNED to bother us.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Lola on February 13, 2007, 12:12:53 PM
But many, many gay people here in America do not have that experience no matter how wonderfully they live their lives!

I'm glad you guys do. It's so unusual as to be noteworthy!

The point is, it is not that unusual, and hardly noteworthy.  Not that I can see.  And these dear men are giving you examples of just how it is done, how they are doing it.  :)
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: cabin on February 13, 2007, 12:27:36 PM

That was not what I was talking about at all. Indeed, the topic of this thread is whether or not society is as aceepting as it sometimes claims.


OK, let's keep it simple.   I've taken your quote above and deleted everything except what you see this thread is about.


Simple, answer.   Here it goes.   Ready.


In my opinion,  yes.


OK,


Now you. . . .

lol  8)



Hi Lyle.    ;)
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: merrobot on February 13, 2007, 12:41:18 PM
And as for jake being gay or not, or accepting it or not,   just mind your own business and do something other than debate someone's sexuality.  Let him be, for gods sakes.

The tone of your post comes across as quite angry or at least frustrated and I can certainly appreciate why you would wish that people didn't spectulate about Jake's private life.  I've been purposely trying not to get into the "is he, isn't he" debate about Jake to any great degree on this thread because I don't want it to detract from the main topic of discussion. 

However, we are on a thread discussing society's acceptance of homosexuality on a forum that is inspired by BBM and where the lives of Jake and Heath in particular are followed in quite significant detail.  It therefore seems almost inevitable that Jake will be suggested as an example of how potentially society's failure to accept LGBT people can force individuals to remain closeted.  Of course, if he is gay or bisexual then coming out is a personal decision and process, it has to be the right time for him.  But at the same time if he is gay or bi and not disclosing that then I think that actually would say something very powerful about his perceptions of how that information would be regarded.

On a slightly more tangential note - there seems to be some feeling that people want to know his sexual orientation to satisfy their own curosity or gratification.  While I think this does play a part, I also think for LGBT folks that having a successful, attrative, smart (and out!) young guy like Jake would be a really inspiring thing.  For teens in particular having those role models makes all the difference - it gives you a sense of hope and determination to get through what can be a tough time of self-discovery and acceptance.

I remember kd lang making a comment along the lines of "Nobody pays me to be a lesbian or a vegan but it comes with the job" and at that point I was so grateful to her because really, back in 95/96 when I was struggling to find other people who were like me and would accept me, there weren't that many out gay celebrities and even fewer lesbian ones.  There were probably a lot more than I realised but in the days before I had access to the internet and the only gay books in my small town library were "Tales of the City" she and Martina were the only role models I could find without having to look too hard.

I seem to have turned this into a "won't somebody think of the children!!!" commentary but actually, I stand by it because I remember how damn hard it was to be 14 and whether they like it or not, people who are so in the public eye and consciousness have a huge capacity to make a difference  :)
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: lowcountrygirl on February 13, 2007, 12:45:30 PM

That was not what I was talking about at all. Indeed, the topic of this thread is whether or not society is as aceepting as it sometimes claims.


OK, let's keep it simple.   I've taken your quote above and deleted everything except what you see this thread is about.


Simple, answer.   Here it goes.   Ready.


In my opinion,  yes.


OK,


Now you. . . .

lol  8)

In my opinion, no.

But I'm happy for your experience!
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: lowcountrygirl on February 13, 2007, 12:49:29 PM
But many, many gay people here in America do not have that experience no matter how wonderfully they live their lives!

I'm glad you guys do. It's so unusual as to be noteworthy!

The point is, it is not that unusual, and hardly noteworthy.  Not that I can see.  And these dear men are giving you examples of just how it is done, how they are doing it.  :)

It is indeed, unusual, for gay people in America to have the perception that society is completely accepting of their sexuality. And yes, that is noteworthy.

I'm surprised you don't agree!

People here in America are still killed for being gay.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Lola on February 13, 2007, 12:51:42 PM
However, we are on a thread discussing society's acceptance of homosexuality on a forum that is inspired by BBM and where the lives of Jake and Heath in particular are followed in quite significant detail.  It therefore seems almost inevitable that Jake will be suggested as an example of how potentially society's failure to accept LGBT people can force individuals to remain closeted.  Of course, if he is gay or bisexual then coming out is a personal decision and process, it has to be the right time for him.  But at the same time if he is gay or bi and not disclosing that then I think that actually would say something very powerful about his perceptions of how that information would be regarded.

And what if he is straight?  Then can he just say I am straight, can he say he wants to meet Mrs. Right and have a child, without fear of alienating his gay fans or disappointing them?

And this thread went on to speculate that Jake, Heath and Ang Lee were gay!!   I mean "was everyone in the movie gay?"
 :-\

If Jake & Heath had not done BB would anyone be speculating about his sexuality? 

And back to the question, "is society as accepting as it claims"  I too say yes, at least for the people I know.   And I think in 2007 if a young star (male or female) were gay, they would admit it (IF they wanted to) and if they don't I think that is fine too.

Although I do see your point about young gay teens needing role models and people to identify with.

Of course having said that I know a 14 year old gay boy who identifies with Paris Hilton!  ;)
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: cabin on February 13, 2007, 12:57:24 PM

In my opinion, no.

But I'm happy for your experience!


lowcountrygirl:

thank you.     and with that                  "poof"
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Kelpersmek on February 13, 2007, 01:00:12 PM
I absolutely don't want to get in a religious topic on this thread--someone could start a whole thread about that, but I recommend a book called "What the Bible Really Says About Homosexuality".

I have had that debate often, and I have yet to find anything by gay Christians that is not a sincere but desperate attempt to cloud an otherwise simple and direct statement.  A particularly direct pastor of the modern era sums it up by saying "The Truth's still the Truth even if you don't like it".  All too often people look at the action of Yahweh (the Christian God), see them to be childish, barbaric and inexplicably cruel, and instead seek to handle this by calling it mysterious.  The intelligent modern Christian spends an enormous amount of time avoiding these or rationalising away these acts with clever arguments and textual interpretation until they feel comfortable.  Look in the book without a need to justify existing beliefs though, and it paints a pretty horrible picture.

I will try and get time to read that book if you recommend it though. 

In the wider context it's what people do with the words and how they act on them that is infinitely more important, and as you say sections of society use this to "bother" gay people.  I feel we can move beyond the word bother to describe people like now deceased Pastor Fred Phelps, who attended funerals to inform the grieving relatives that their child was now in hell, because "God hates fags".  He was able to directly reference a book that other people also make use of as a moral framework for his hate campaign. 

While Phelps was an extremist, it is common to see homophobia and strong religious principles hand in hand (especially the middle East and America).  Regardless of academic interpretations of books, the content is being taken pretty literally throughout the world.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: merrobot on February 13, 2007, 01:04:49 PM
And what if he is straight?  Then can he just say I am straight, can he say he wants to meet Mrs. Right and have a child, without fear of alienating his gay fans or disappointing them?

I just don't buy this argument at all.  I can see the National Enquirer headline now: "Jake G denies being straight for fear of heterosexist backlash shocker".   :o

Quote
And this thread went on to speculate that Jake, Heath and Ang Lee were gay!!   I mean "was everyone in the movie gay?"

Well the entire cast and crew of "Go Fish" were gay...

Quote
If Jake & Heath had not done BB would anyone be speculating about his sexuality?

I don't know the answer to that but as far as I know, Tom Cruise has never played a gay character  ;)

Quote
And back to the question, "is society as accepting as it claims"  I too say yes, at least for the people I know.

We're obviously seeing a marked geographical difference here.  I'm wondering what makes the difference between where you are in Canada, where lowcountrygirl is in the US, and where I am in the UK?

Quote
And I think in 2007 if a young star (male or female) were gay, they would admit it (IF they wanted to) and if they don't I think that is fine too.

While I would say certainly to the idea of people coming out when good and ready, I again have to wonder what is stopping them?
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Kelpersmek on February 13, 2007, 01:16:07 PM
Quote
And this thread went on to speculate that Jake, Heath and Ang Lee were gay!!   I mean "was everyone in the movie gay?"

Well the entire cast and crew of "Go Fish" were gay...


Yep, there's enough gay people out there to make a whole movie crew!  It's possible!

The thing is, a movie about gay not-quite-cowboys, tackling issues of homophobia in America across the years... that's going to get the attention of quite a few gay people.  It's pretty understandable if a lot of the folks involved were gay, because it is a tremendously important gay movie.  Lots of people would *want* to be involved.

Imagine a film about Martin Luther King, and me going "Wait a second, there were HOW many black guys??!"

So, while I am not going to speculate public ally on Jake, Heath and Ang, I think you have to admit that the possibility is quite reasonable.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Lola on February 13, 2007, 01:20:53 PM
And what if he is straight?  Then can he just say I am straight, can he say he wants to meet Mrs. Right and have a child, without fear of alienating his gay fans or disappointing them?

I just don't buy this argument at all.  I can see the National Enquirer headline now: "Jake G denies being straight for fear of heterosexist backlash shocker".   :o

LOL I am just talking about a backlash from some of the people on this site.  I don't think the general gay public (OR alot of gay people on this board) could care less about the sexuality of either one of them! 

But when Heath marries (supposedly) and has a child and declares his undying love for the women he is with..........I don't get why anyone would think he was gay?

And when Jake says in a magazine, he definitley wants to have a child and find the right women to marry..............why that would be a light going off (to some) that he is gay and trying to cover??   

Not to mention that both of them have been in very long term relationships with females!


As for Ang, I am totally lost on that speculation!

Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: fritzkep on February 13, 2007, 01:21:05 PM
We also have many members in long term happy relationships, 20 to 30 years.  They live in harmony with their partners, and society is not bothering them in the least.

If they live in America, I doubt that's true, at least not 100% of those 20-30 years!


Well, my partner Earl and I have been together for 28 years now, and the people we're close to in the neighborhood know about us and are completely accepting. We've lived in the same neighborhood since 1984. We don't feel it's necessary to introduce ourselves as "Hellowe'reEarlandFritzandwe'regay", but let that fact come out naturally. With most people, not all but most, it's harder to hate an individual due to stereotypes when you know an individual rather than have just the stereotype to go on.

Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Lola on February 13, 2007, 01:26:24 PM
The thing is, a movie about gay not-quite-cowboys, tackling issues of homophobia in America across the years... that's going to get the attention of quite a few gay people.  It's pretty understandable if a lot of the folks involved were gay, because it is a tremendously important gay movie.  Lots of people would *want* to be involved.

Imagine a film about Martin Luther King, and me going "Wait a second, there were HOW many black guys??!"

So, while I am not going to speculate public ally on Jake, Heath and Ang, I think you have to admit that the possibility is quite reasonable.

NO I don't admit that.  And although I would admit that there would be alot of black people in a movie about Dr. Martin Luther King or say Malcom X.  I don't expect that a movie about gay cowboys would have 2 gays stars and a gay director.  No I don't think that at all.

And maybe there are leading men out there who would hesitate taking those parts (or directing the film) because they wouldn't want everyone to assume they were gay.

Heck I didn't assume Anthony Hopkins was a serial killer who ate people's livers?   But he sure did a good job playing one.



Hey Fritz!!  :)  So far we have you, Gerry and Marty.  You all sound very happy and very blessed to me!
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: fritzkep on February 13, 2007, 01:31:52 PM
By Marty I assume you mean Rance (Osprey)!  :D

Marty is Rance's partner.  :-*  :-*  :-*

Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: merrobot on February 13, 2007, 01:44:37 PM
LOL I am just talking about a backlash from some of the people on this site.  I don't think the general gay public (OR alot of gay people on this board) could care less about the sexuality of either one of them! 

But when Heath marries (supposedly) and has a child and declares his undying love for the women he is with..........I don't get why anyone would think he was gay?

And when Jake says in a magazine, he definitley wants to have a child and find the right women to marry..............why that would be a light going off (to some) that he is gay and trying to cover??   

Not to mention that both of them have been in very long term relationships with females!


As for Ang, I am totally lost on that speculation!

Hmmm... well falling in love with women and having children aren't typical gay men behaviours, I'll give you that  :D  However, from what we know it is entirely possible that either of them could be bisexual or straight or now that we've seen jake-in-a-frock trans... ::)

Gah - I wasn't going to get into this but anyway... I think what Jake says in the GQ interview is subject to interpretation and a very close read of the article suggests to me that he is not actually saying that he wants to get married and have children but neither does he say that he doesn't.  I find him often quite evasive in interviews and it only rings bells because I spent a lot of my adolescence and early adulthood doing exactly the same thing.  To a cynical reader it can come across as him nominally saying what he believes people want to hear without having to lie outright and compromise his own integrity.

So dragging it back to the main discussion, society is not going to have a hairy fit over him being straight but what do you think the repercussions of him coming out as gay or bisexual would be?  My guess is that society would not be overly embracing.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Lola on February 13, 2007, 01:47:01 PM
By Marty I assume you mean Rance (Osprey)!  :D

Marty is Rance's partner.  :-*  :-*  :-*


OMG I have always called him MARTY!! LOL

Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Lola on February 13, 2007, 01:49:03 PM
So dragging it back to the main discussion, society is not going to have a hairy fit over him being straight but what do you think the repercussions of him coming out as gay or bisexual would be?  My guess is not overly embracing.

I don't know to tell you the truth. I presume you mean career wise?  I guess I really haven't given it any thought, because I never thought he was gay! lol

As to what he said in the article, it really was straight forward to me (no pun intended):

Now that big sister Maggie is a mom, Jake Gyllenhaal admits he's been thinking about when he might have kids himself. But first things first – he'll need to find the right woman.

"I'm definitely thinking about (children)," the 26-year-old actor tells GQ in its February issue. But the first responsibility for any man who wants to be a father, he says, is to choose wisely when it comes to a partner.

"Look," says Gyllenhaal, who is single, "the most important job for a man is to find the right woman. It's the best we can do. I thank my father for choosing my mother. She's wonderful in so many ways. And she chose well, too. I've noticed in life that the mother, first, has a primary job – and as a father, your job is to pick a caring, smart, mindful woman."

Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: lowcountrygirl on February 13, 2007, 02:01:35 PM
Gah - I wasn't going to get into this but anyway... I think what Jake says in the GQ interview is subject to interpretation and a very close read of the article suggests to me that he is not actually saying that he wants to get married and have children but neither does he say that he doesn't.  I find him often quite evasive in interviews and it only rings bells because I spent a lot of my adolescence and early adulthood doing exactly the same thing.  To a cynical reader it can come across as him nominally saying what he believes people want to hear without having to lie outright and compromise his own integrity.

As a lesbian myself, I find that he often answers in much the same way I do when I don't want to lie but don't want to come out, either, because of what I fear the reaction would be.

In fact, I have learned from him how to do that even better!
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: lowcountrygirl on February 13, 2007, 02:06:07 PM
We also have many members in long term happy relationships, 20 to 30 years.  They live in harmony with their partners, and society is not bothering them in the least.

If they live in America, I doubt that's true, at least not 100% of those 20-30 years!


Well, my partner Earl and I have been together for 28 years now, and the people we're close to in the neighborhood know about us and are completely accepting. We've lived in the same neighborhood since 1984. We don't feel it's necessary to introduce ourselves as "Hellowe'reEarlandFritzandwe'regay", but let that fact come out naturally. With most people, not all but most, it's harder to hate an individual due to stereotypes when you know an individual rather than have just the stereotype to go on.


I'm so glad to hear that, Fritz!

But what you said about "harder to hate an individual" suggests you gave thought to how to live within this society that is not all that accepting. How best to be accepted in spite of it.

Jeanine
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Kelpersmek on February 13, 2007, 02:09:06 PM
NO I don't admit that.  And although I would admit that there would be alot of black people in a movie about Dr. Martin Luther King or say Malcom X.  I don't expect that a movie about gay cowboys would have 2 gays stars and a gay director.  No I don't think that at all.

Well, I suggested you admit it was quite reasonable.  So, you think that a film important to black people would have a large number of black people on staff, but a film that has had a huge success about a gay couple would not have any more than an average number of gay people working on it.  Interesting.

Why?  What's the difference?  Why would a gay mainstream movie not interest gay people in the movie industry, but a Malcom X movie would be attractive as a project for black people in the industry?

Quote
Heck I didn't assume Anthony Hopkins was a serial killer who ate people's livers?   But he sure did a good job playing one.

I don't know if you mean to sound patronising, but I don't think that anywhere in my post I suggested that movies are real life.
Playing Jack Twist doesn't make Jake gay or straight, or anything except an actor.  However, this is a film about gay guys, and the team behind it are being asked to put together a film which will follow the story faithfully and put across a convincing performance.  Would it not make sense that at least a few of the crew would be gay?  Why not one or more of the actors too?  You don't think that a director of Lee's standing can pick and choose films?  Why is it inconceivable that he may be gay himself, and that was what interested him in this project?  Surely it is possible. 

Again, what is the factor about BBM that makes you think that gay people would not have been interested in being part of the movie/crew?

Quote
I don't know to tell you the truth. I presume you mean career wise?  I guess I really haven't given it any thought, because I never thought he was gay! lol

Well, I am guessing career wise.  Coming out probably has a more marginal effect on, for example, people's weekly groceries. 
So, when you saw a guy playing a gay cowboy, it never occurred to you he might be gay himself?

If we cast the net wider than Jake, what sort of effect do you think might be seen in the career of any actor who comes out?  Any impact?  None?  Change in roles? 
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: lowcountrygirl on February 13, 2007, 02:12:00 PM
We're obviously seeing a marked geographical difference here.  I'm wondering what makes the difference between where you are in Canada, where lowcountrygirl is in the US, and where I am in the UK?

I am in the lovely, ever gay-friendly SOUTH! ;D

And just today, I was outed at my PT job (I am not there but was called and told about it) by someone who found me on MySpace. One of the women there, after hearing that I was a lesbian, burst into tears. She is the one I was most afraid of telling!

She said to my boss there, who did know, that she will still love me but is worried about me now. She's a Christian and was shocked to find this out about me because I am, too, and she knew that.

Anyway, this is a place where they disparage Rosie and Ellen--this one woman says they flaunt their sexuality so she will not watch their shows.

Definitely not an "accepting" part of the society I live in...

Jeanine
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Lola on February 13, 2007, 02:23:57 PM
Lowcountrygirl I am sorry to hear that, they sound very narrow minded.  Thank goodness I don't know people like that.

Kelpersmek I went to see a movie (not just a gay cowboy movie) but to me a universal love story.  It starred two young males that I was very familiar with, Jake and Heath.  And a director that I was also very familiar with.  Thus the intial attraction to the film.

I thought Jake and Heath played their parts well, but no I never walked out that theatre asssuming they were actually gay.

Could there have been a "little spark" between them on the set. I don't know, I have already said maybe.  From everything I have read they were both pretty uncomfortable with the love scenes.  After all they were intense.


Could there have been gay people on the crew, for sure.   I am sure they got some "technical advice" on what it would have been like for closeted males living in the 1960's.


Honestly in the year that I have been on this board you are the very first person I have came across who has said that because it was a movie about gay people that you would assume the stars and director was gay.  :-\

Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Kelpersmek on February 13, 2007, 02:28:48 PM
this is a place where they disparage Rosie and Ellen--this one woman says they flaunt their sexuality so she will not watch their shows.


Wow. 

Do they avoid all pop stars, male hunk-actors, cheerleaders, adverts, and lingerie stores too?  Or is heterosexuality OK to flaunt?
Also, not to labor the point but... the woman who reacted like someone told her you eat babies is a Christian and it is this that leads her to believe you are now going to hell for brazenly defying God.  I'm sure if you dig into her expectations a little she'll also believe that you try and lure children into lesbian orgies, and secretly worship Satan.

I knew a guy who told me he couldn't possibly be gay.  Because if he was, his parents would quite literally kill him, since they saw that as part of their duty as good Muslims.  Being gay would be a betrayal of God, an insult.  They would have no choice.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Kelpersmek on February 13, 2007, 02:32:49 PM

Honestly in the year that I have been on this board you are the very first person I have came across who has said that because it was a movie about gay people that you would assume the stars and director was gay.  :-\


Well, scratch that to zero people because I never said that.

Please go back.  Re-read my post if you're unclear on this. 

For me to write "Is it quite reasonable to assume they *might* be gay?" is not the same thing as saying "I think everyone in that film was gay.  Even the sheep."
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Lola on February 13, 2007, 02:35:35 PM
reasonable to assume, yes that is what you said, I have never heard anyone say that until now.  But I did hear the sheep were gay! lol
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: merrobot on February 13, 2007, 02:36:01 PM
As to what he said in the article, it really was straight forward to me (no pun intended):

Now that big sister Maggie is a mom, Jake Gyllenhaal admits he's been thinking about when he might have kids himself. But first things first – he'll need to find the right woman.
  That's not from the man himself it's the reporter's interpretation.

Quote

"I'm definitely thinking about (children),"
the 26-year-old actor tells GQ in its February issue. But the first responsibility for any man who wants to be a father, he says, is to choose wisely when it comes to a partner.

I can think about going to the gym or putting my cat on a diet or strangling my mother-in-law but that doesn't mean I am going to do any of those things.  Although other people may expect it of me  :D  A non-evasive answer might be "I'm thinking about what it would be like to be a father" or "I'm thinking I would like to have kids one day".

Quote
"Look," says Gyllenhaal, who is single, "the most important job for a man is to find the right woman. It's the best we can do. I thank my father for choosing my mother. She's wonderful in so many ways. And she chose well, too. I've noticed in life that the mother, first, has a primary job – and as a father, your job is to pick a caring, smart, mindful woman."

Here Jake talks about finding the right woman only in the context of being a co-parent.  That doesn't mean you have to have sex with them or marry them or have a romantic relationship with them (although you may well do all of those things).  Again a non-evasive answer might be "I would like to be with (marry) a woman who is caring, smart and mindful" and indeed he deflects attention away from himself and onto his parents so he talks even less about what having kids would actually mean to him.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Lola on February 13, 2007, 02:41:12 PM
Like we said we can interpet it any way we like.  I guess if he marries a women and has a child in the next year or so, we will know for sure.  Of course even then, some people will say he is just pulling an "ennis or a jack"

I am not sure what he could really do to convince people he was straight.  What if he just comes over to my house and has his way with me?   :P   Actually even that wouldn't do it, Jack did that with Lureen.

So I guess there is really nothing!!
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: merrobot on February 13, 2007, 02:44:51 PM
I am in the lovely, ever gay-friendly SOUTH! ;D

And just today, I was outed at my PT job (I am not there but was called and told about it) by someone who found me on MySpace. One of the women there, after hearing that I was a lesbian, burst into tears. She is the one I was most afraid of telling!

She said to my boss there, who did know, that she will still love me but is worried about me now. She's a Christian and was shocked to find this out about me because I am, too, and she knew that.

Anyway, this is a place where they disparage Rosie and Ellen--this one woman says they flaunt their sexuality so she will not watch their shows.

Definitely not an "accepting" part of the society I live in...

(((((Jeanine))))) I hope this woman doesn't make too many waves for you  :-\

So...what do you think it is about the "ever-gay friendly South" that - well - isn't?  (And I'll compare it to bonny Scotland for you!)

(Edited to remove a comment that was meant to be encouraging but was actually quite insensitive - sorry, Jeanine and I really do hope things are okay at work for you  :-*)
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: merrobot on February 13, 2007, 02:50:21 PM
Like we said we can interpet it any way we like.  I guess if he marries a women and has a child in the next year or so, we will know for sure.  Of course even then, some people will say he is just pulling an "ennis or a jack"

I am not sure what he could really do to convince people he was straight.  What if he just comes over to my house and has his way with me?   :P   Actually even that wouldn't do it, Jack did that with Lureen.

So I guess there is really nothing!!

He doesn't have to convince me, Lola, he just has to say "I'm straight" or "Me and Natalie Portman are getting hitched" or "It's true that I was the filling in a Minogue sandwich and I have the polaroids to prove it" and I would believe him.   The fact that he's kind of dancing around the issue like Michael Flately on speed does make me a bit suspicious though.

And if he's coming over to anyone's house - I'm first in line!  ;)
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Lola on February 13, 2007, 02:54:28 PM
I wonder if Michael Flately is gay? lol 

I believe he doesn't have to convince you, but I think some other people on this board are not going to be easily convinced.

Like I said, if he is gay great, let me hear him say it and I am cool with it.  In fact I would probably become very protective of him, like I did with TR Knight.  I like him, I love the show and now I am on the look out for anyone who may bad mouth him.  :-*
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: merrobot on February 13, 2007, 03:01:21 PM
I wonder if Michael Flately is gay? lol 

I believe he doesn't have to convince you, but I think some other people on this board are not going to be easily convinced.

Like I said, if he is gay great, let me hear him say it and I am cool with it.  In fact I would probably become very protective of him, like I did with TR Knight.  I like him, I love the show and now I am on the look out for anyone who may bad mouth him.  :-*

Either way me and you will stand up for him, Lola!!  And here's that dancing I was talking about!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3PEVUmKAL0  ;D
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Lola on February 13, 2007, 03:04:15 PM
LOL too funny!!  I think Michael's job is safe!   Would you belive I have never seen Donnie Darko?  :-X
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: shelber on February 13, 2007, 03:48:23 PM
wow i havent been gone that long and there are way many more well thought and great comments! i wish i had time to respond to what all has been said again, but today is a crazy day at work!

i just wanted to check in and to again tell everyone that i am greatful that you all have been keeping this respectful, i know it can be a tense subject especially with jake's name tossed around here and there. ty ty ty ty ty! :-* :-* :-* :-*

and jeanine, baby i wish i was there for you right now. i am so sorry that you were outed, especially since you were not ready to tell one of the ladies in particular, i love you, and you are strong, and courageous, this to shall pass, it may be bumpy but there are lots of people here and there that are here for you. me especially  :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-*
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Lyle (Mooska) on February 13, 2007, 04:01:08 PM
And this thread went on to speculate that Jake, Heath and Ang Lee were gay!!   I mean "was everyone in the movie gay?"

I assume Lola is talking about some things I said in my posts.

1.)  The information I supplied about Ang Lee was from the head of the marketing division of Columbia Pictures/RCA Home Video who worked with him on the video release of "Crouching Tiger".  He (F.M.) & Ang are both Chinese.  F.M. is gay and has a boyfriend.  F.M. told me when I was working with him on a video promotion that Ang is gay.  "...is one of us..." is what he actually said.  Why is it unreasonable to assume that someone who was in close contact with Ang, who are both from a similar background and interests, might know this about Ang and relate it to me?  Many people in Hollywood are aware of people in the industry who are gay, but are not out in the general public.   Gay guys are not celibate so it's highly reasonable to assume they have contact with other guys and the info is out there.

In fact there's a reason you can hear this statement from guys about someone they know is gay that becomes famous:  "I knew him before he was straight."

When I have mentioned similar points of how actors used to handle it from the 50' or 60's etc., I have been told, but it's 2007!  And yet, the article I quoted yesterday from TDS says, again:

Some gay actors say that while the American public’s comfort level has improved considerably, the entertainment industry hasn't caught up. It may be 2007, they say, but the vibe inside studio casting offices can feel surprisingly like 1957.

Even after an internet site outed Neil Patrick Harris his publicist was refuting it until Neil said Let's just stop this.  Agents and publicists can be the worst when it comes to gay celebrities because they view them as their meal tickets and they don't want anything to interefere with that.  And some of those agents and publicists are gay themselves.

My friend Taylor knows Ron Epstein (Nicole Kidman's agent for many years) and the things I could tell you about Nicole and Tom C.'s marriage!  Or contract, if you prefer.

2.)  Without repeating what I have previously posted already, I never said that Heath was gay.  The info I posted was about him being bisexual.  So that does not mean is he unhappy about being married to Michelle, in fact he is quite happy about it.

3.) Also, I never speculated that Jake is gay.  I specifically said I have no gaydar when it comes to him, but for people who work in this town, you have to take ANYTHING written about celebrities nowadays with a grain of salt and an open mind.  How many times have you seen celebrities themselves on talk shows say that articles written about them were out of context, or it made something seem like it wasn't, or they weren't quoted correctly?  If you ARE gay, "not" making statements about it when leading questions arise is an art form and for people who have witnessed this countless times you can pick up on things that the public at large may not.  One thing I offered about Jake is from a friend of mine who witnessed him with his friend Austin in a private booth in his workplace and telling me that "straight guys just do not touch each other like that".  If actions speak louder than words, you can judge for yourself. 

Jasonvw has recently shown me a site which specializes in gossip and the author writes about someone in Hollywood who is gay but not out, that he calls Toothy, that all his readers think is Jake.  A recent entry he writes is completely and eerily similar to the article here quoted about Jake saying he wants a kid and looking for a good mother etc.  -- except its in terms of wanting a kid with his boy friend.  (Will & Grace wanted to have a child together as well!)

I repeat.  I DON'T KNOW. 

But I do know that often where there's smoke, there's fire and birds of a feather flock together, and 2+2=4.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: merrobot on February 13, 2007, 04:11:28 PM
Okay...so ten pages in we have established:

That experiences of 'acceptance' vary alot depending on a number of factors such as social and political climate of a particular area, ties and integration into a community, being seen as an 'individual who happens to be gay' rather than a member of a marginalised and 'alien' group - very much the converse of "familiarity breeds contempt".

That while people may superficially make comments which seem 'pro-gay' digging a little deeper into things e.g. should gay men and lesbians have marriage rights or adoption rights may reveal less support and an inherent belief that these are priviledges reserved for heterosexuals rather than fundamental civil rights that should be enjoyed by everyone.  Taken to extremes in the case of eugenics and the 'quality of life' issue over a 'gene for homosexuality'.

That by coming out celebrities not only satisfy the curiosity of the general public but may foster pride and esteem in LGBT folks in general and teens in particular.

What is still unclear...

What coming out or remaining closeted says about society's acceptance (as opposed to, say, personal acceptance)?

Other factors which influence 'acceptance' in the areas where this appears more prevalent (and vice versa)?

And finally...
The jury is very much out on whether Jake is gay or straight or bi and we await the possibility of "Jake G in Minogue Sandwich Shocker" to cast the deciding vote  :D

Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: shelber on February 13, 2007, 04:19:41 PM
(((((penny))))))

what a great discussion this has been

i wonder if in our life time will there ever be a day when we can look back and go wow was it really like that?

i doubt it, but maybe there will be a miracle  :)
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: merrobot on February 13, 2007, 04:26:46 PM
(((((penny))))))

what a great discussion this has been

i wonder if in our life time will there ever be a day when we can look back and go wow was it really like that?

i doubt it, but maybe there will be a miracle  :)

Hey Shelly!  :-*

Well, I plan to keep going until I see the Kylie/Jake/Dannii evidence  :D  Seriously though, I hope this isn't the end of the discussion because I'd like to think that more people can share their ideas and experiences here.

But yes, I hope that we will be able to look back and see a big difference in attitudes and ideals - and maybe even think "and we helped to make that difference"...
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Lola on February 13, 2007, 04:34:58 PM
What is still unclear...

What coming out or remaining closeted says about society's acceptance (as opposed to, say, personal acceptance)?

Other factors which influence 'acceptance' in the areas where this appears more prevalent (and vice versa)?


I think coming out or remaining closeted says as much about the person (personal acceptance) as it does about society.  I have a friend who is in his 40's, he came out when he was 10, told anyone who didn't like it to kiss his ass and he has never looked back since.   

And for the record I do think many of the stars we have today, may have been bi-sexual, went with a few men here and there when they were younger.  And then met women, fell in love, had families and are perfectly content with their lives in the here and now.

So again, what they did when they were young, really doesn't interest me.  Heck I even know plenty of people in my real life who experimented when they were young.  Not me though..........not that there is anything wrong with that! lol
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: shelber on February 13, 2007, 04:40:20 PM


Hey Shelly!  :-*

Well, I plan to keep going until I see the Kylie/Jake/Dannii evidence  :D  Seriously though, I hope this isn't the end of the discussion because I'd like to think that more people can share their ideas and experiences here.

But yes, I hope that we will be able to look back and see a big difference in attitudes and ideals - and maybe even think "and we helped to make that difference"...

uh when you see the certain evidence around kylie and umm danni please pass that on  ;D i dont want this to be the end of discussion either, i think there is still alot that can be said too, and shared i mean i hope there is, there are many stories out there, and thoughts that i would love to here. so yeah lets keep it rolling, i just hope RL will give me a break here so i can join back in  :-*

((((penny)))))
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: merrobot on February 13, 2007, 04:49:40 PM
uh when you see the certain evidence around kylie and umm danni please pass that on  ;D i dont want this to be the end of discussion either, i think there is still alot that can be said too, and shared i mean i hope there is, there are many stories out there, and thoughts that i would love to here. so yeah lets keep it rolling, i just hope RL will give me a break here so i can join back in  :-*

((((penny)))))


(((((Shelly)))))

I will certainly share here!!  I'm off to bed soon but looking forward to anything new that crops up overnight  :)
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Lola on February 13, 2007, 04:58:46 PM
http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20011758,00.html

Looks like gay or straight, alot of people want their love lives to be off limits!
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: shelber on February 13, 2007, 06:34:14 PM
lol work actually brought me here! how about that for ironic. i have been trying to come up with some activities for some of the youth here that are bi-sexual, one of them is female, she says bi sexual but admits she is more likely a lesbian, any way she showed me a link that really made her sad, she had gone to a g.a.l.a.p (gay and lesbian association of the peace) meeting and some of the older kids were discussing something they had seen on the internet, written by a M.D, the M.D had captioned some vignettes  , i thought i would post a couple they arent very long, so hopefully no one falls asleep  ;D

A young woman visits a family physician for the first time. During the
course of a physical examination, the physician asks, “When was the last
time you had sexual intercourse?”
“I’ve never had sexual intercourse,” she replies.
“Never?”
“No.”
“Do you have a boyfriend?”
“No.”
“Well, don’t worry. You will soon. Let’s talk about birth control.”
The physician finishes the discussion about contraception and writes in the
chart “Not yet sexually active. Not in relationship. Contraception counselling
given.”
The patient never returns, but the next year goes to see another family
physician for her physical. During the course of the examination, the physician
asks, “Are you sexually active with men, women or both?”
“Yes,” she replies, “with a woman. I’m a lesbian.”
“Are you in a relationship?”
“Yes — for 8 years now. In fact, I wonder if my partner could come to see
you, too? We’re thinking about having children.”
“Of course, I’d be delighted to meet her.”
And so begins a long, healthy physician–patient relationship.


An HIV-positive woman who identifies herself as a lesbian and who had
been admitted to hospital previously for AIDS-related pneumonia goes to a
new physician. After she relates her history, the physician declares, “I doubt
that you are HIV positive. I think this whole thing is a trick.”
The patient leaves feeling as though the physician has insinuated that she
would get some benefit from having AIDS.

the article also goes on to say that lesbians may not receive proper health care because doctors do not get proper histories from them, and even that doctors make inappropriate assumptions about them. this article is totally directed towards lesbians, i wonder what some doctors do to the men who are gay? please note that i am not saying all doctors are like this thanks  :-*
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: lowcountrygirl on February 13, 2007, 07:36:02 PM
As to what he said in the article, it really was straight forward to me (no pun intended):

I find him often quite evasive in interviews and it only rings bells because I spent a lot of my adolescence and early adulthood doing exactly the same thing.  To a cynical reader it can come across as him nominally saying what he believes people want to hear without having to lie outright and compromise his own integrity.

As a lesbian myself, I find that he often answers in much the same way I do when I don't want to lie but don't want to come out, either, because of what I fear the reaction would be. In fact, I have learned from him how to do that even better!


If you ARE gay, "not" making statements about it when leading questions arise is an art form and for people who have witnessed this countless times you can pick up on things that the public at large may not.

This is what I think explains why some people miss his evasions.

Thanks to everyone for your support around what happened with my PT job. I freaked out a little when I first heard about it, but I am feeling better about it now!

Jeanine


Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Lola on February 14, 2007, 06:29:05 AM
Hmm we are going to have to agree to disagree there.  I still say it it was cut and dry. Of course I could poll every gay person I know! lol   Sorry my vote is still "not gay"  Just in the movie!  ;D

But many, many gay people here in America do not have that experience no matter how wonderfully they live their lives!

I'm glad you guys do. It's so unusual as to be noteworthy!

Just as Gerry, Osprey and Fritz's experiences, could not convince you of anything!  ;)  And like I said we have many many more like them on this board.  And I know many just like them.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Lola on February 14, 2007, 09:08:53 AM
(http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m159/Jannisnasty/eva.jpg)

I think Jake is a boob man!  :o
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: lowcountrygirl on February 14, 2007, 10:27:48 AM
But many, many gay people here in America do not have that experience no matter how wonderfully they live their lives!

I'm glad you guys do. It's so unusual as to be noteworthy!

Just as Gerry, Osprey and Fritz's experiences, could not convince you of anything!  ;)  And like I said we have many many more like them on this board.  And I know many just like them.

What were they supposed to be convincing me of? That society fully accepts gay couples?

Is that what you believe, Lola?
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Lola on February 14, 2007, 10:41:35 AM
No just that it is not that unusual and certainly not enough to be noteworthy!   Which was the question of the post is society really as accepting as it claims?  Alot of people would say yes to that.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Kelpersmek on February 14, 2007, 12:41:57 PM

I think Jake is a boob man!  :o


I  think what's being said makes all the difference in the world...


(http://img108.imageshack.us/img108/2253/dreamytr1.jpg)
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Lyle (Mooska) on February 14, 2007, 12:44:51 PM
Hmm we are going to have to agree to disagree there.  I still say it it was cut and dry. Of course I could poll every gay person I know! lol   Sorry my vote is still "not gay"  Just in the movie!  ;D

No one has to vote one way or another, as I said before, I have no gaydar when it comes to Jake, but, Lola, anytime ANYONE says anything that could indicate Jake might be gay, you feel a need to refute it.  You quote  articles or post pictures that support your feelings.  You don't even have the tiniest wavering notion to your ideas--you simply discount it all.

It reminds me of the tour guide at the Liberace museum, a lady who proudly declared she was in her 80's.  After the tour was over she was taking questions and a woman commented that it was so nice that a gay man like Liberace became so successful at his craft and has an entire museum about his life.  The lady then said, "Oh, no, you are mistaken.  Liberace was not gay."  The entire tour erupted in laughter!  People see what they want to see.  That includes gay people, but some people are open to the possibilities of things that others report to us.

Just as Gerry, Osprey and Fritz's experiences, could not convince you of anything!  ;)  And like I said we have many many more like them on this board.  And I know many just like them.

And gnash was reading a story to me about two gay men who were beaten this week in Alberta.  Lola, you've stated it may depend on where you live, so where are you coming from on this?  Do you believe that society is totally accepting of gay couples or is there a scale to that?  Cause I read a gay national magazine frequently called Frontiers and there are weekly news items about much intolerance toward gay people in the world.  So, are you just saying it is where you live, or are there any gray areas in your ideas about this?  The U.S. will not tolerate homosexuals in the military (unless you don't tell!) which is "quite" intolerant.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Lola on February 14, 2007, 12:45:29 PM
Somehow I think it is her boobs he is checking out not the dress!   But hey we could start a rumour about him being a crossdresser!  Of course he brought that on himself after the SNL skit! lol

Lyle if it makes you feel better I do admit Liberance was gay!  I even suspect Richard Simmons may be also!  ;)   And is your point that society as a whole is totally unaccepting of gay couples?  If it is, then so be it.  It isn't mine and it isn't the view of many others.

I am entitled to my opinion, the fact that it is not the same as yours, doesn't make it less valid.


Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: merrobot on February 14, 2007, 01:08:17 PM
What is still unclear...

What coming out or remaining closeted says about society's acceptance (as opposed to, say, personal acceptance)?
I think coming out or remaining closeted says as much about the person (personal acceptance) as it does about society.  I have a friend who is in his 40's, he came out when he was 10, told anyone who didn't like it to kiss his ass and he has never looked back since.

Hmmm... this is interesting.  I wonder what makes the difference between someone who has the confidence to come out, especially at such a young age, and someone who finds it more difficult.  Because I strongly suspect that people will be less likely to come out when they believe that they will get a negative reaction and that belief will be based on what they have experienced.  So actually, I think that society's acceptance can have a huge influence on people feeling confident about coming out.  However, I also think that people who have had a lot of experiences of being accepted and esteemed in childhood, are probably more likely to come out because they have experienced that acceptance and can therefore accept themselves and have a support network to offset any negative experiences of coming out.  It is very much a two-way street and there are huge interactions between societal pressures and personal acceptance of sexual orientation.

Quote
And for the record I do think many of the stars we have today, may have been bi-sexual, went with a few men here and there when they were younger.  And then met women, fell in love, had families and are perfectly content with their lives in the here and now.

So again, what they did when they were young, really doesn't interest me.  Heck I even know plenty of people in my real life who experimented when they were young.  Not me though..........not that there is anything wrong with that! lol

I don't quite follow your comment here - are you saying that celebrities who have "experimented" with same-sex relationships should be considered 'bisexuals' who have "got it out of their system" and should now be considered totally straight?  Because I wouldn't ever equate sexual experimentation with bisexuality, one is a behaviour the other is an identity.  I have heard the term "bicurious" bandied about and I suspect that it might be how people identify when they are in this experimentation stage but I see it as quite distinct from bisexuality. 

And as we are on the topic of societal acceptance - I think "bicuriousity" is much more acceptable than bisexuality because it is associated with experimentation and an expectation that once you've tried both sexes you can decide what your preference is (and hell mend you if you decide you very much like both, thanks very much!).  I also think it taps into two widely held beliefs that I don't agree with: "everybody is a bit bisexual" and "being bisexual is trendy".  While I do believe that sexual orientation is a continuum with a whole range of points at which people can identify, I don't think it is helpful to simply say then, "we're all a bit bi".  I also don't think it's helpful to make a sexual orientation into a fashion statement - I get really irritated by people who treat it as some sort of "wild thing" to get involved in - "oh yeah, I used to do coke but now I do chicks"  ::)

And I hate to say it - but all these "happily married men" who had a few 'gay' flings in their youth?  There are a scary number of them presenting at clinics for men who have sex with men...
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Lola on February 14, 2007, 01:30:42 PM
I think alot of things factor in as to when and if people come out.  But I think it has to come from within.  How many times have you heard people say I was so scared to tell "A" or to tell "B" and then when they did, neither "A" nor "B" really care.  That is internalized fear.

I guess my question is if a man is bi-sexual and say from 20 to 30  he is with men and women, lots of them.  And then at 30, that man meets a woman and marries and has kids and only has sex with and eyes for her for the next 25 years, is he still bi-sexual? 

I don't like labels for just that reason.  I have a friend, she was happily married for a long time, two kids, they drifted apart and got a divorce.  She was getting on with her life, had no real plans to date, was raising her kids.  And then she met a women, a wonderful women, they hit it off they became friends and then lovers.  They moved in together.

She would tell you she does not consider herself a lesbian, not at all.   So then what is she, is she bi-sexual, straight, but with a women. 

Or maybe just one person in love with another.



Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: merrobot on February 14, 2007, 02:20:55 PM
I think alot of things factor in as to when and if people come out.  But I think it has to come from within.  How many times have you heard people say I was so scared to tell "A" or to tell "B" and then when they did, neither "A" nor "B" really care.  That is internalized fear.

I have heard that, I have experienced that but I have also know young gay men and lesbians who were told by their parents "If I find out you're queer, I'll fucking kill you" and a very good friend of mine at university was badly beaten by his brother when he first came out.  While I never felt that my physical safety was compromised by my sexuality, I did at times feel that it compromised my relationship with my mother and there was a real sense that she felt "let down" by the fact that I was in a relationship with a woman.  I was terrified of people at working finding out and when I later met another lesbian member of staff after I had left she told me that she had been outed at work and was looking for another job because she couldn't stand it.  Again, all very complex interactions between different aspects of individual's lives.

Quote
I guess my question is if a man is bi-sexual and say from 20 to 30  he is with men and women, lots of them.  And then at 30, that man meets a woman and marries and has kids and only has sex with and eyes for her for the next 25 years, is he still bi-sexual? 

I don't like labels for just that reason.  I have a friend, she was happily married for a long time, two kids, they drifted apart and got a divorce.  She was getting on with her life, had no real plans to date, was raising her kids.  And then she met a women, a wonderful women, they hit it off they became friends and then lovers.  They moved in together.

She would tell you she does not consider herself a lesbian, not at all.   So then what is she, is she bi-sexual, straight, but with a women. 

Or maybe just one person in love with another.

If a man has relationships with men and women and considers himself to be bisexual then I think that's what he is, if he marries and is monogamous and considers himself bisexual or considers himself straight then that is what he is.  Sexual identity, is what we make of our own experiences, feelings and beliefs - it is not for others to make that decision for us.  So while I would have an issue with my doctor or my mother or my colleagues saying that I'm straight when I that is not how I identify myself, if they were to say I was bi (because that is what I told them) then I wouldn't take issue with it.

I've already said that I don't believe that sexuality is a dichotomy but a continuum.  What I didn't say but also meant was that it is fluid - there is no reason why a person's identification cannot change over time as they develop as a person.  I think that is the real issue with labels - that they can only describe a snapshot in time, they are not enduring.  Indeed, while I think "I'm a person in love with another person" is a very touching sentiment, it flies in the face of having an identity and at this point in time, I think identity is something which is very important.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Kelpersmek on February 14, 2007, 02:22:25 PM
I think alot of things factor in as to when and if people come out.

Like, for example, you live in Alabama, and if you come out, you run a high risk of being beaten to death with clubs, and someone dragging your corpse into a tree, and hanging a sign saying "Fag" from it.  That would probably influence your decision.

Quote
But I think it has to come from within.

I think if instructions that tell you how to live your life come from without, that means you need to see someone about the little voices that tell you what to do.  lol. 

Quote
How many times have you heard people say I was so scared to tell "A" or to tell "B" and then when they did, neither "A" nor "B" really care.  That is internalized fear.

However, as with Ennis, that fear didn't manifest out of thin air.  How did it get to be an internalised fear? 
It is an absorbtion of societal values into your perception of the world.  If it turns out to be wrong, it is nonetheless not a spontaneous manifestation, but something gathered through the evidence and experiences you've had.

Quote
I guess my question is if a man is bi-sexual and say from 20 to 30  he is with men and women, lots of them.  And then at 30, that man meets a woman and marries and has kids and only has sex with and eyes for her for the next 25 years, is he still bi-sexual?

Yes.
Two reasons:
1) If you get married, are you now a monosexual?  You're neither straight nor gay, you are only ever sexually attracted to one partner.  Ever.  No.  Instead you remains straight or gay, but monogamous.  it doesn't change your sexuality.
2) Have you ever been in a relationship which was intense and passionate and all consuming love, and yet for just the briefest second or in the most innocent way found yourself looking at an actor, an advert, a magazine, anything and thinking "ooh, hot"?  I'm guessing if you have a pulse then yes, whether or not you are secure enough to admit that.  No one has eyes only for their partner, even if we are devoted to them.  As Lyle rightly said, humans consider sexuality all the time.  If the man continues to think "ooh hot" about other men as well as other women then yeah, he's bisexual.  Sexuality is not the same as sex.  Attraction is not sex.  Finding someone attractive doesn't mean you had sex with them, and similarly, not having sex with someone does not mean you are not attracted to them.


Quote
I don't like labels for just that reason.

We all love to think we are unique snowflakes.  We're not.  Labels are unpopular because they remind us that we're not the first people on the planet or the first people to feel/do/say/think this.   

Quote
I have a friend, she was happily married for a long time, two kids, they drifted apart and got a divorce.  She was getting on with her life, had no real plans to date, was raising her kids.  And then she met a women, a wonderful women, they hit it off they became friends and then lovers.  They moved in together.

She would tell you she does not consider herself a lesbian, not at all.

I don't think labels are about what you consider yourself, but about what society considers you.  Lesbian or bisexual, rejecting any label or seeking to create a unique one is simply fooling oneself*.  Society will apply a label regardless, because <drum roll> society is not as accepting as it claims.






*Footnote: I'm not comfortable with being called straight.  I myself am a Fabulousexual; I only have sex with fabulous people. 
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Lola on February 14, 2007, 03:03:04 PM
LOL well I really enjoyed what you both have to say, I really did.  I learn something all the time on this board.

I think at the end of the day people can say who they are, how they define themselves.  But yes society will define them how they want to.  A woman may be 5 foot 4 and 200 pounds and consider herself "pleasantly plump" but society will see her as "fat" know what I mean?  What is she at the end of the day?  She is what she wants to be.

I can only say for my experience and that of my gay friends, in the city and place I live, society is as accepting as it seems.  I do not perform lip service when I talk about my gay friends. I love them, I care about them, I treasure them as friends.  My kids do the same with their gay friends, it is not an "act"

What is life like in Alabama, I have no clue.  How can a parent say "they will kill their child if he or she is gay"  I have no clue.

I can't explain how some people think.  Hate is hate, it is evil, and it is evil and wrong if it directed at gay people, or minorities, or someone who is a different religion, or someone who looks different, is disfigured or is overweight, someone who is handicapped or mentally challenged, the list is endless............human beings can be cruel to other human beings. 
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Lyle (Mooska) on February 14, 2007, 03:34:33 PM
And is your point that society as a whole is totally unaccepting of gay couples?  If it is, then so be it.  It isn't mine and it isn't the view of many others.

I can only say for my experience and that of my gay friends, in the city and place I live, society is as accepting as it seems. 

No. 

But your posts have answered YES to the question this thread poses without taking a more world view into account, up until you've narrowed it down to your experience, your friends, city and place you live.  So, do you think your answer would be different outside of that narrower focus?
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Lola on February 14, 2007, 04:35:51 PM
A society is a grouping of individuals, which is characterized by common interest and may have distinctive culture and institutions. In a society members can be from a different ethnic group. A "Society" may refer to a particular people, such as the Nuer, to a nation state, such as Switzerland, or to a broader cultural group, such as Western society. Society can also be explained as an organized group of people associated together for religious, benevolent, cultural, scientific, political, patriotic, or other purposes.


Do you want to start defining society Lyle?  You are not going to quit until I agree with you.  Well guess what it isn't happening.  You have my answer.   You had my answer pages ago.

Enjoy your Valentine's day!  :)
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Osprey on February 14, 2007, 05:11:13 PM
I briefly posted yesterday about the fact that we live in a small Mormon town in Northeastern Utah and are utterly accepted in the community as a gay couple and interestingly enough, Salt Lake City has one of the most sophisticated gay communities in the nation.  They are involved in every aspect of Utah Society and manage very well even with the "Official Policy" of the LDS Church being what it is. 

I think that you will find that there is a huge disconnect between the elderly and younger leaders of many of the religions today.  These elderly leaders, are in many respects stuck in the horse and buggy era in regards to the increased knowledge regarding things like homosexuality.  They live in many cases in utter isolation from the real world.  The younger leaders, say on the parish level, are a whole different breed and they are not only aware of the increased knowledge regarding issues like homosexuality, they accept it and apply it to their roles as leaders in their respective religious communities.  In Salt Lake City, there are several gay Mormon Wards, the Mormon equivalent of a Parish and the leaders of the Church are aware of their existence and they just sort of seem to turn their heads regarding their existence.  Same goes for the Catholic Church.  In Salt Lake City there are also support groups for Gay Mormon Fathers, Gay Mormon Mothers, staffed by Mormons for Mormon members of the GLTG community.

The governing body of the Mormon Church is the Council of the Twelve Apostles, whom we refer to as the Council of the Twelve Fossils. ;D  No one expects them to make official the changes that are already taking place.  That will come with the next generation.  It should be of no great surprise therefore, that we live openly as a gay couple in a Mormon community and have the total support of the younger Mormon leaders, with whom we deal with on a daily basis on behalf of the community as a whole.

I also believe that people treat you as you wish them to.  If you sneak around and act like you have something to hide and act guilty and submissive then you will send those signals and be treated accordingly in many cases.  But if you act like you know what the hell you are doing, people will treat you like you do.  That has been our experience anyway.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Lola on February 14, 2007, 05:16:51 PM
It should be of no great surprise therefore, that we live openly as a gay couple in a Mormon community and have the total support of the younger Mormon leaders, with whom we deal with on a daily basis on behalf of the community as a whole.

I also believe that people treat you as you wish them to.  If you sneak around and act like you have something to hide and act guilty and submissive then you will send those signals and be treated accordingly in many cases.  But if you act like you know what the hell you are doing, people will treat you like you do.  That has been our experience anyway.


Thanks again Rance, I hope everyone reads that and really lets it soak in this time!
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: shelber on February 14, 2007, 05:27:46 PM


*Footnote: I'm not comfortable with being called straight.  I myself am a Fabulousexual; I only have sex with fabulous people. 

oh wow i thought i was the only one!!!
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: shelber on February 14, 2007, 05:46:29 PM
here is a heart warming and beautiful story........*note the sarcasm*

this happened a few weeks ago, but a co-worker came to work the other night, and was very upset (understandingly so) and her friend was jumped out side of a bar by 2 guys, and beaten really badly, to the point where they may be flying him out to edmonton, yep here in little ol alberta........oh did i mention he was gay...the guy that got jumped
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Lyle (Mooska) on February 14, 2007, 07:42:11 PM
here is a heart warming and beautiful story........*note the sarcasm*

this happened a few weeks ago, but a co-worker came to work the other night, and was very upset (understandingly so) and her friend was jumped out side of a bar by 2 guys, and beaten really badly, to the point where they may be flying him out to edmonton, yep here in little ol alberta........oh did i mention he was gay...the guy that got jumped

I guess Lola doesn't live in that accepting neighborhood of Alberta society.

A gay actor in West Hollywood was viciously beaten by three men with a lead pipe on Norcroft Ave.  He was in the Cedar's Sinai hospital and  unconcious for several days.

I "know" Lola doesn't live in "that" neighborhood.

I am just amazed, Lola, that with all of the discussions you've read on these threads over the past year about Brokeback Mountain, a film in which because of societal values two men are forced to love in secret and one of them is beaten at the end of the film, where intiative after iniative in the U.S. has been passed to deny marriage rights to gay couples, where gay men are periodically beaten for being gay, where someone can call another a faggot in the workplace and its not dealt with so it makes a reprise at the Golden Globes (the T.R. Knight story), where a TDS article quotes actors as saying casting offices are more reminsicent of 1957 when it comes to gay actors, where BBM has homophobic remarks made against it by ampas members without any redress against them, where U.S. soldiers cannot serve in the military if they choose to be themselves, where you discount people with the wave of a keystroke who have direct or circumstantial evidence of a public person being gay, where gay students are expelled from college because they're found out on myspace websites, as someone posted here that they were outed from as well, and you STILL persist to have a pollyanna view that "society is as accepting as it claims", and it doesn't matter if every happy gay couple on the planet makes a post on this thread.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Lola on February 14, 2007, 08:13:11 PM
I briefly posted yesterday about the fact that we live in a small Mormon town in Northeastern Utah and are utterly accepted in the community as a gay couple and interestingly enough, Salt Lake City has one of the most sophisticated gay communities in the nation.  They are involved in every aspect of Utah Society and manage very well even with the "Official Policy" of the LDS Church being what it is. 

I think that you will find that there is a huge disconnect between the elderly and younger leaders of many of the religions today.  These elderly leaders, are in many respects stuck in the horse and buggy era in regards to the increased knowledge regarding things like homosexuality.  They live in many cases in utter isolation from the real world.  The younger leaders, say on the parish level, are a whole different breed and they are not only aware of the increased knowledge regarding issues like homosexuality, they accept it and apply it to their roles as leaders in their respective religious communities.  In Salt Lake City, there are several gay Mormon Wards, the Mormon equivalent of a Parish and the leaders of the Church are aware of their existence and they just sort of seem to turn their heads regarding their existence.  Same goes for the Catholic Church.  In Salt Lake City there are also support groups for Gay Mormon Fathers, Gay Mormon Mothers, staffed by Mormons for Mormon members of the GLTG community.

The governing body of the Mormon Church is the Council of the Twelve Apostles, whom we refer to as the Council of the Twelve Fossils. ;D  No one expects them to make official the changes that are already taking place.  That will come with the next generation.  It should be of no great surprise therefore, that we live openly as a gay couple in a Mormon community and have the total support of the younger Mormon leaders, with whom we deal with on a daily basis on behalf of the community as a whole.

I also believe that people treat you as you wish them to.  If you sneak around and act like you have something to hide and act guilty and submissive then you will send those signals and be treated accordingly in many cases.  But if you act like you know what the hell you are doing, people will treat you like you do.  That has been our experience anyway.

I guess some people just aren't paying attention! Like Lyle says it doesn't matter Rance.   I guess you and I just look at the world through rose coloured glasses.  Well thank GOD, I would rather that than see the bad in everything!   I guess the world just sucks in the life of some, how sad.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: cabin on February 14, 2007, 08:30:35 PM
Look you guys.

I think the discussions are getting out of hand, I'm not the moderator or anything.  But it is unpleasant to read some of these things in regards on how each of you present them and not the subject matter.

Why don't you all take a breather and cool it.

I have respect for many of you here because I've either had great discussions or have met in person.

Let's try to address the intent of the thread and direct our comments to that and not to the person you are rebutting.  You all know how I feel about this subject, however, I respect each of you much more than to let it get out of hand.

Happy Valentines Day


edited by cabin:   I would like to clarify that this post is not addressing any particular person it is addressing posts from both sides of this issue.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: shelber on February 14, 2007, 09:02:14 PM
yeah you know i agree, taking digs at eachother isnt a nice way to have a discussion, re grouping sounds like a good idea. and if i said anything offensive i do apologize

shelly
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Lyle (Mooska) on February 15, 2007, 02:19:53 AM
I briefly posted yesterday about the fact that we live in a small Mormon town in Northeastern Utah and are utterly accepted in the community as a gay couple and interestingly enough, Salt Lake City has one of the most sophisticated gay communities in the nation.  They are involved in every aspect of Utah Society and manage very well even with the "Official Policy" of the LDS Church being what it is.
 
I guess some people just aren't paying attention! Like Lyle says it doesn't matter Rance.   I guess you and I just look at the world through rose coloured glasses.  Well thank GOD, I would rather that than see the bad in everything!   I guess the world just sucks in the life of some, how sad.

I do not need to be lectured about things going on in Utah.  I actually know and am friends with the person who helped organize the very FIRST gay & lesbian pride parade in that state, Jeff Freedman.

Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Kelpersmek on February 15, 2007, 07:13:40 AM
I also believe that people treat you as you wish them to.  If you sneak around and act like you have something to hide and act guilty and submissive then you will send those signals and be treated accordingly in many cases.

OK, I have to say I find this idea to be exceptionally offensive, but I am sure it was not intended that way.  So in a spirit of trying to understand what is being said here, I'd like to look at my interpretation of it and why that offends me.

The core of it is
Quote
people treat you as you wish them to.

Now, this may seem to be in accordance with your own experiences, but let's look at the story Shelly posted.

Quote
here is a heart warming and beautiful story........*note the sarcasm*

this happened a few weeks ago, but a co-worker came to work the other night, and was very upset (understandingly so) and her friend was jumped out side of a bar by 2 guys, and beaten really badly, to the point where they may be flying him out to edmonton, yep here in little ol alberta........oh did i mention he was gay...the guy that got jumped

So, if we apply the belief that people treat you as you wish them to, I would interpret that as you saying he behaved in such a way as to encourage people to beat him to a pulp.

Or to put it another way, 'gay people who are attacked bring it on themselves'.
Now, I feel that this is an example of the very worst application of the "Just world hypothesis" where we believe in some sort of karmic redress of our actions, only apply it in reverse:  If something bad happens, we must have done something to invite it.

To add to a victim’s trauma the guilt of having also caused their situation seems to me to be an intolerable cruelty.

Now, I that's what I have understood from your words.  I would invite you to comment on whether or not I have correctly interpreted what you were saying.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Osprey on February 15, 2007, 07:23:58 AM
I don't think that we so much look at the world through rose colored glasses as much as our life experiences have been very different.

There are people beaten up and murdered every day in this country, for being Black, for being Latino, for being Jewish, for being Native American, for being Catholic, for being Mormon, for being a bad husband, a bad wife, a bad child, and yes, for being gay.  Being straight is by no means any kind of protection against violence.   This sad young man who went over the edge Monday night in Salt Lake City and walked into a mall and killed five people and critically wounded four others before he was himself killed didn't kill a single gay person, he was just killing people.

I feel bad that Lyle sees the world through such dark eyes, but that is his right, and I am not going to judge his perception, as he has every much as right to his as we have to ours.  I am just so grateful for the changes I have seen in the last 20 years.  We are moving forward and I am also grateful that I live in a place and time that I don't have to fear because of who I choose to love.  I hope that one day Lyle lives there too. 

Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Osprey on February 15, 2007, 07:43:20 AM
Kelpersmek,

I would again remind you that you are picking out a selected incident where a gay person was beaten up while neglecting to mention the fact there were thousands of others being beaten up at the same time in other places for other reasons.  I think it must all be kept in perspective.  Is it better to be beaten because you are Jewish than for being gay?  I think that because we are gay that all we see are the gay bashings and we often fail to recognize  that the problem is ignorance and bigotry period, and that we, as gay people, have no monopoly on being bashed.   

It is a terrible thing when anyone is beaten for any reason, we all lose when that happens.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Lola on February 15, 2007, 08:23:44 AM
Gerry thanks for trying to keep the peace.  :-*

And Rance, I can't say anything any better than what you said!  ;D 


Funny this post started out with "was Jake gay"  :D
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Lyle (Mooska) on February 15, 2007, 11:19:24 AM
I feel bad that Lyle sees the world through such dark eyes, but that is his right, and I am not going to judge his perception, as he has every much as right to his as we have to ours.  I am just so grateful for the changes I have seen in the last 20 years.  We are moving forward and I am also grateful that I live in a place and time that I don't have to fear because of who I choose to love.  I hope that one day Lyle lives there too.

Excuse me, but this perception that I see the world the way you suggest is completely absurd.  I was just trying to bring a balance to some things that have been posted here that are completely on the other side of the spectrum--the pollyanna side, if you will.  But any facts and figures I have stated keep being shot down with posts of happy couples together, which could be compared to your statement about gays being beaten:  I would again remind you that you are picking out a selected incident where a gay person was beaten up while neglecting to mention the fact there were thousands of others being beaten up at the same time in other places for other reasons.  Why are my facts and figures not also appropriate to your views then?  Are you not picking out selected incidents to support your views?

After all, the topic of this thread is is society really as accepting as it claims?  Above, you just mentioned you are grateful for the changes you have seen in the last 20 years.  Which means there have been changes.  But to completely ignore some of the facts of things I said, that many other people may not be so fortunate to live in a place and time that I don't have to fear because of who I choose to love is to ignore the simple fact that if society is really as accepting as it claims then Brokeback Mountain would have made nearly a ripple of notice as it paraded across theatre screens last year, but it didn't.  It caused a lot of controversy for the simple fact that it was about two men in love.  Is society "more" accepting than it used to be.  Of course.  But when surveys show, in the U.S. that a majority of people think gays & lesbians should have equal rights and then ballot measures come up in each state for this purpose, they are nearly unanimously voted down, which means society likes to think they are accepting, but the results are otherwise in the voting booth.


Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Tia on February 15, 2007, 11:42:51 AM
As someone who has been harassed and bullied at times in my life, I know what it's like. I do not mean to sound like a pity party. I was physically attacked once. I did go to the ER but was released. The weirdest thing I remember about it is this: The nurse came and told me she had called the police and they were coming to speak to me. I was so surprised. It never occurred to me that what had been done to me was a crime. It seemed like I just accepted the act but wanted to make sure I was OK physically.

People are always so strong in pairs or numbers but they can never stand alone. The classic bully. I'm sensitive and I will take to heart some of the terrible things I know happen in the world. I may not dwell on them but I think about it daily. The post by shelber are the kinds of things that always make me sick to my stomach.

I do not think everyone is accepting. People can be very ignorant and dishonest. Sometimes mean for the joy of it. I hope I didn't go too much off topic here.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Kelpersmek on February 15, 2007, 11:46:02 AM
So, basically have I got your meaning correct?  People invite gay bashings by their own conduct?

I would again remind you that you are picking out a selected incident where a gay person was beaten up while neglecting to mention the fact there were thousands of others being beaten up at the same time in other places for other reasons. 

The fact that many people were being assaulted at the same time does not impact this in any way, whatsoever, in my opinion.  If you lose a loved one in an assault the police would be rather insensitive to say "Look, a lot of people died today for all kinds of reasons."

You say I am "picking out a selected incident where a gay person was beaten up" as if it's unusual.  It's like I picked a statistical blip.  I picked out an incident that took place a short while ago, as relayed by Shelly.  I am using it as an example, because I want to know if you believe that being beaten up was largely/partly his own fault, since you believe that people treat us the way we want to be treated.  The issue of how many other people on the planet were also being attacked is, as far as I can see, utterly irrelevant to the question I was posing. 

Quote
I think it must all be kept in perspective.  Is it better to be beaten because you are Jewish than for being gay?
No.  Being beaten up for what you do, or say, I can understand.  Being beaten up for what you are?  That's bigotry.
As for perspective, again, you think that people treat you the way you act like you want to be treated.  So anti-Semites are, by your logic, just picking on Jews because the Jewish people are encouraging that behaviour through their actions. 

Quote
I think that because we are gay that all we see are the gay bashings and we often fail to recognize  that the problem is ignorance and bigotry period, and that we, as gay people, have no monopoly on being bashed. 

Um, I'm not gay.  I'm a white heterosexual male.  I don't know why you have suddenly begun to talk about other groups who are persecuted, because as far as I am aware nobody has suggested that gay people are the only ones who get attacked.  The point I was trying to make is that you stated, and have yet to refute, that gay people are attacked because of the way they act, thus bringing trouble onto themselves. 

The larger issue, and the topic of this thread, is about society being accepting.  If you are saying "Well, society persecutes and bashes ALL kinds of minorities, not just gay people!", then that kind of argues that society is *not* as accepting as it claims, doesn't it? 

I mean, I wouldn't define that as "acceptance".  Picture a big guy in his Klu Klux Klan outfit saying "Oh don't get me wrong, I hate Jews and Gays and Chinese folks as much as black guys.  I'm a pretty accepting kind of person like that."

Doesn't really shore up the argument that society is accepting, does it?

Quote
It is a terrible thing when anyone is beaten for any reason, we all lose when that happens.

I kind of think the guy bleeding on the ground is losing the most here, in a very literal way.  Wearing rose coloured glasses and saying "Well, I don't see it so it doesn't happen" is not helping to stamp out bigotry.  Quite the opposite. 

Think about it this way: if you had never heard of the Holocaust, would you have used the example of Jews as a persecuted minority? 

If you say "Well, it doesn't happen so much now-a-days" and "We've come a long way", how does that benefit the people who are still, right now, in the real world, being killed for who they are?

Quote
We are moving forward and I am also grateful that I live in a place and time that I don't have to fear because of who I choose to love

Good for you, that's swell.  I'm a white heterosexual male, so I never get any hassle about my skin or sexuality.  And hey, I'm lucky enough not to be disabled either, so should I go right ahead and assume nobody is feeling excluded in the world?  I hope one day Lyle lives in a happy trouble-free world too, but I somehow doubt the way to improve the world where Lyle lives it to simply go "Well, things are just peachy where I live!"

Maybe I am looking at the world with "dark eyes", but guess what I see?  People who need help, people who aren't fine and dandy.  And then I realise that although I'm lucky, not everyone else is, and maybe I should be the one to help those less fortunate than me.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Lola on February 15, 2007, 11:51:13 AM
Just in case anyone is interested Canada defines marriage as;

"the voluntary union for life of two persons."  :)
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Lyle (Mooska) on February 15, 2007, 11:59:04 AM
Left field.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: merrobot on February 15, 2007, 12:27:50 PM
I guess some people just aren't paying attention! Like Lyle says it doesn't matter Rance.   I guess you and I just look at the world through rose coloured glasses.  Well thank GOD, I would rather that than see the bad in everything!   I guess the world just sucks in the life of some, how sad.

I'm not denying for a moment that some people on this thread have had very positive experiences of being gay or living in communities where gay men and lesbians are accepted without question and naturally that wil influence their answer to the question of whether society is accepting as "yes". 

However, I don't believe that the folks who have had negative experiences (and btw that 'I'll kill you if I find out you're gay' quote was a direct quote from a mother to her thirteen year old daughter) are simply refusing to see "the bright side" or are being treated the way they 'allow themselves' to be treated.  Because when it comes to violence and discrimation the odds are very much stacked against you. 

The way this discussion is going kind of reminded me of lyrics from an Ani DiFranco song (Rush Hour):

"he said change the channel
i've got problems of my own
i'm so sick of hearing about drugs
and aids
and people without homes
and i said, well,
i'd like to sympathize with that
but if you don't understand
then how can you act"

And that's the whole issue, here, really.  If we don't agree that society is NOT completely accepting of all people and there are still pockets of discrimination, then we really cannot move forward to bring those positive experiences to more people.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Lola on February 15, 2007, 12:35:35 PM
  If we don't agree that society is NOT completely accepting of all people and there are still pockets of discrimination, then we really cannot move forward to bring those positive experiences to more people.

WOW, okay I thought it was a question, I didn't realize there was only one correct answer!
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: merrobot on February 15, 2007, 12:42:37 PM
  If we don't agree that society is NOT completely accepting of all people and there are still pockets of discrimination, then we really cannot move forward to bring those positive experiences to more people.
WOW, okay I thought it was a question, I didn't realize there was only one correct answer!

On this one...I think there is, actually and I've said on what basis I make this judgement already on this thread.  But it's interesting that rather than consider what factors mean that some people live in a cosy little bubble of fluffiness and others very obviously do not, you dodge the whole question altogether and start claiming that if your answer isn't "correct" then there cannot be one!!
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Kelpersmek on February 15, 2007, 12:48:40 PM
WOW, okay I thought it was a question, I didn't realize there was only one correct answer!

(http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/6397/86105223aj2.jpg)

The answer is that it is a matter of opinion, but by participating you are meant to explain what has led you to your opinion, and then people can swap why they are of a different opinion.  Then you feel free to argue any percieved points of logic or inconsistency, or things the other person might not have thought of. 

So, your reasons so far, to me, seem to be "Society is as accepting as it claims, because I know gay people who don't live with fear and hate in their local community."

Now, I then point out that you're confusing your local area with society at large, and that by saying "Society is just fine" you are actually causing massive harm to the people who are being persecuted elsewhere. 

The thing is, unless you take up the point from there and put something to me to consider, it is not very productive.

For example, if I answer you point by point with my views, and then you say "In Canada we have lovely cheese", the non-sequitur kills any chance of a dialog.  If there is another answer, you need to present the ideas that have led to your conclusion.

Do you see?
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Lola on February 15, 2007, 12:51:51 PM
No one mentioned cheese, but I did mention how we define marriage in Canada.  I think that speaks volumes.

Anyway you know what, it has been nice chatting, but I think I am done with this topic.  It could go around and around forever.

Peace!  ;D
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Lyle (Mooska) on February 15, 2007, 01:20:50 PM
If we don't agree that society is NOT completely accepting of all people and there are still pockets of discrimination, then we really cannot move forward to bring those positive experiences to more people.

Well stated.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Lyle (Mooska) on February 15, 2007, 01:39:14 PM
If we don't agree that society is NOT completely accepting of all people and there are still pockets of discrimination, then we really cannot move forward to bring those positive experiences to more people.
WOW, okay I thought it was a question, I didn't realize there was only one correct answer!

All of your posts indicated that you thought there was only one answer and made post after post to state it.  The truth is usually somewhere in the middle.

Quote
Anyway you know what, it has been nice chatting, but I think I am done with this topic.  It could go around and around forever.

As with any topic, people can discuss it and be enlightened.  For example, I have been having a conversation with HerrKaiser on the homphobia thread and he has introduced thoughts about that subject I had never considered before.  Neither of us are demanding that we agree with each other, but are finding different thought processes about the subject neither of us had considered previously.  It's only when one  is trying to learn and another is adamant and refuses to consider another option, even if they end up disagreeing with it, that the disruptions seem to occur.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: lowcountrygirl on February 15, 2007, 06:05:33 PM
I am awed and amazed and grateful that in a thread where we've experienced such tension, I have been able to discover the beauty in several minds, hearts and souls!!

If group marriage were possible, I would want to marry my Shelly, PLUS Alan and Penny and Lyle! :-* :-* :-*
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Lola on February 15, 2007, 08:15:47 PM
Hmmm and I would marry Rance, Gerry and Fritz!!  Viva la polygamy! lol
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: fritzkep on February 16, 2007, 05:19:23 PM
No offense, Lola, but your anatomy isn't quite right!  :D

 :-*  :-*  :-*

Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Lyle (Mooska) on February 16, 2007, 06:13:44 PM
Again, starting off with the question of this thread, Is society really as accepting as it claims, I would point out what is all over the internet today with headlines about Kenny Chesney.  Wether Kenny Chesney is gay or not, it is interesting for several reasons.

1.)  All of the internet articles I read, which is quite a few, are quoting this statement:  Maybe I should have come out and said, `No, I'm not (gay),' but I didn't want to draw any more attention to it," the 38-year-old country singer says. "... I didn't have to prove to anybody that I wasn't (gay). I didn't feel like I really did."

The fact that gay is in parantheses (gay) means he did not use that word.  The author does that so we are clear of the statements intentions, but I wonder what word/words, if any "was/were" used?

2.)  All of the articles say this:  That Kenny has said that the reason he/they  used fraud as the reason for their annulment was not because he's gay.  Which is very different than saying he is not gay.  But the press has all said he said he's not gay and not once in the articles is he quoted as saying that.

NOW THE INTERVIEW ITSELF MAY SAY SOMETHING DIFFERENT ON 60 MINUTES, BUT NO ONE HAS PROVIDED A TRANSCRIPT OF THAT.

From an article in the O.C. Register:

His denial, what I've seen of it, seems very believable to me, but whether it's true or not, I really feel for the guy right now, as I do for just about any celebrity whose sexuality becomes gossip fodder. If he really is gay - and I'm not suggesting he is, just hypothesizing here - and he's denying it, well, not only might that immeasurably set back the cause of gay people to not be stigmatized, but it would mean that Chesney is living in some sort of closeted self-torment. Which is his and anyone else's prerogative, of course; I don't stand with those who believe gay celebrities should be outed, or simply out themselves, as a means of furthering a community's visibility. It's a private matter, first and foremost.

If he is indeed not gay, well, unfortunately that will hardly convince some people. The speculation will remain, and no amount of truth-talking from Chesney is going to make some people shake the notion that he's somehow covering something up. Look at how some people view Clay Aiken in the wake of charges (from a rather dubious source) about his sexuality. There is bound to be unexpected fallout from this, especially considering Chesney is a country star. Not to put stock in homophobic stereotypes, but there are surely some country fans who will for years to come mockingly equate Chesney with, oh, Brokeback Mountain.


Notice how the author, and I'm sure he doesn't even know he is doing it, is using the BBM reference as though that if someone thinks Kenny Chesney is gay or even associates him with being gay, that that is a bad thing.  Why wouldn't you be honored to be compared to BBM?

By the way, Clay Aiken has always been viewed as a big closet case, even before those other charges; where has this author been?  Well, he's in super conservative Orange County, I answered my own question.

3.) Quoting this line from that article again: [Any person's sexuality] -- It's a private matter, first and foremost.

Straight people usually say this because all they are thinking about in terms of gay people are the actual sex acts.  They never think of someone's sexuality in terms of just being with your partner and being free to hold hands, or a touch, or make a statement about someone, or bring over a friend to someone's house, or if someone comes over to your place have to think about anything being in your house that might give yourself away or not.  Etc.  So as a matter of privacy, it's out there for gay people to see straight people as straight all the time.  It's not private.  We know you are straight.  You are allowed to freely express it.  With gay people it is not always an option.

So if society is as accepting as it claims, this Kenny Chesney story today wouldn't have even come up.  It would be a non-story and the press wouldn't feel a need to address it at all.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Lola on February 16, 2007, 06:27:22 PM
No offense, Lola, but your anatomy isn't quite right!  :D

 :-*  :-*  :-*


That is what I said to Rance, something tells me I am going to get the short end of the stick in this marriage! lol
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: fritzkep on February 16, 2007, 07:45:48 PM
No offense, Lola, but your anatomy isn't quite right!  :D

 :-*  :-*  :-*


That is what I said to Rance, something tells me I am going to get the short end of the stick in this marriage! lol

Hmmmmmmmmmmm............naah, too easy.   ;D  :D

Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Kelpersmek on February 17, 2007, 03:41:36 AM
Straight people usually say this because all they are thinking about in terms of gay people are the actual sex acts.  They never think of someone's sexuality in terms of just being with your partner and being free to hold hands, or a touch, or make a statement about someone, or bring over a friend to someone's house, or if someone comes over to your place have to think about anything being in your house that might give yourself away or not.  Etc.  So as a matter of privacy, it's out there for gay people to see straight people as straight all the time.  It's not private.  We know you are straight.  You are allowed to freely express it.  With gay people it is not always an option.


That's an interesting take on things, and along with Merrobot's desire for gay celebrities to provide a positive role model for younger gay people, it's got me thinking...

I am coming from a point of view that i don't believe that a celebrity really owes it to anyone to come out publicly.  On the other hand, in order to remain "in" or ambiguous (with regards to hwo the press views you) it actually takes work.  I was thinking of it in terms of gay celebrities not having to take action to define themselves one way or another, because it is up to them if they wish their sexuality to remain private.

Now, I certainly do understand that sexuality is not sex, and is a lot more than who you sleep with.  It's why I was pointing out to Lola that a bisexual who marries doesn't suddenly slot neatly into gay or straight, but rather remains bisexual, simply monogamous.  However I didn't really consider that a celebrity would have to take actions to stop people finding out they are gay.

It's one thing for me to say "I don't think celebrities have to confirm whether they are gay or straight", but that's not enough to keep the press from finding out.  All you need to do is look at who's hand they are holding.  Who do they go to dinner with?  So a gay celebrity has to really put effort into acting straight in a hundred small ways that I pretty much ignored in my position.

I think then I have to refine my opinion.  I am still sticking to the "nobody's business" angle, but adding that even on top of not having to define themselves as straight or gay, it would be better if the press didn't speculate either way.  Which would include posting pretty much any picture of a celebrity in any social setting. 

That more or less boils down to me wanting no "gossip" about celebrities in the press, so I guess I may as well wish for a pony and a solid gold house while I'm at it, eh?

Hmmm... food for thought...



P.S. Thanks for wanting to mass marry us Jeanine!   :-*  We'd love it, but does it mean moving to Utah?  :-\
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: merrobot on February 17, 2007, 03:53:02 AM
I am awed and amazed and grateful that in a thread where we've experienced such tension, I have been able to discover the beauty in several minds, hearts and souls!!

If group marriage were possible, I would want to marry my Shelly, PLUS Alan and Penny and Lyle! :-* :-* :-*

That's a lovely idea, Jeanine!  :-*  But you are also making a very good point here too, that it is only by joining together that people can make their voices heard and that probably one of the factors that allows discrimination and persecution to occur is isolation and invisibility.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: merrobot on February 17, 2007, 04:48:12 AM

3.) Quoting this line from that article again: [Any person's sexuality] -- It's a private matter, first and foremost.

Straight people usually say this because all they are thinking about in terms of gay people are the actual sex acts.  They never think of someone's sexuality in terms of just being with your partner and being free to hold hands, or a touch, or make a statement about someone, or bring over a friend to someone's house, or if someone comes over to your place have to think about anything being in your house that might give yourself away or not.  Etc.  So as a matter of privacy, it's out there for gay people to see straight people as straight all the time.  It's not private.  We know you are straight.  You are allowed to freely express it.  With gay people it is not always an option.

So if society is as accepting as it claims, this Kenny Chesney story today wouldn't have even come up.  It would be a non-story and the press wouldn't feel a need to address it at all.

I agree with you that a person's sexual orientation is about more than just their sex life - it is a part of their identity and guides how they see and interact with the world.  A while ago I was at a workshop looking at cultural awareness in working with patients and we were split into groups to discuss how our own 'cultures' shaped our identities - there were three gay men in my group and all three felt very strongly that identifying as gay was as important to them (in some cases was more important) as being British, or Catholic or white.  Interestingly, everyone in the workshop was white, and didn't think anything of it - we were so used what the trainers referred to as our "white priviledge" that we took it for granted.  And I guess this reminds me a bit of how society attempts to claim acceptance of people of all races and nationalities but most of our materials feature and are geared towards the dominant group in our society - white, British, English-speaking.  And heterosexual - the only places in the NHS that I have ever seen posters or leaflets featuring same-sex couples are GUM clinics (and then it's only male couples).  There are some similarities between race and sexual orientation but also some differences - it is very difficult to hide your skin colour or your accent or your religious dress.  It is much easier to hide or deny your sexual orientation.

However, as I said above, if it is something that has such a bearing on our identities, then why should it be something to be hidden?  The psychological impact of being in the closet can be devasting - it perpetuates the sense of shame and isolation.  It is tiring to constantly be on your guard about what you say and how you say it.  Playing the "pronoun game".  Referring to your partner as your "friend".  Constantly answering the question, "So why haven't you got a boyfriend yet?" with yet another evasive answer from your repertoire.  Occasionally going to a big city and being brave and holding your girlfriend's hand and hoping to God that someone isn't going to beat you for it - and if they do, you've already told her to leave you and run and get help because her safety is more important than your own and there's no point in you both being in intensive care.

So yeah, you remain in the closet for your own safety but at the same time, it becomes a psychological prison.  And really, there is no need for it if society is as accepting as it claims.  But I certainly didn't believe that ten years ago and while we have come a fair way in that time, there is still a long way to go.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Kelpersmek on February 17, 2007, 06:43:07 AM
There are some similarities between race and sexual orientation but also some differences - it is very difficult to hide your skin colour or your accent or your religious dress.  It is much easier to hide or deny your sexual orientation.

I agree race is a useful comparison in some respects, but not others.  Religion though might be a better example, although most of us are lucky enough to have to look outside of our country to appreciate the comparison.

In China the many millions of Falun Gong (http://clearwisdom.net/emh/index.html) practitioners are at the centre of a controversial persecution.  Now, the details of that religion (http://exposingthefalungong.org/) aside, its practitioners are indistinguishable from non-practitioners, except that doing certain things, or possessing certain items would alert people to their beliefs.  From various reports if the government discovers that someone is a practitioner it is grounds for immediate arrest, torture and death.

As a society places like Britain, the USA, and Canada don't arrest and torture people to death for their religious beliefs, nor their sexuality.  However, that doesn't mean to say that non-government sponsored attacks and abuses don't take place.  Indeed, some of the discrimination is backed up by our respective governments.  You still can't get married in Britain if you're a same sex couple, but you can have a Civil Partnership.  Opposite sex couples on the other hand can't have a Civil Partnership.  Some see this as irrelevant, but to me it points up clearly how society can seem to be accepting, but shy away at the last minute.

Society today is a lot more tolerant than it used to be, but acceptance is a step we are only just approaching. 

Quote
But I certainly didn't believe that ten years ago and while we have come a fair way in that time, there is still a long way to go.

It's bizarre that although you're bisexual, you can get married because you chose to marry a man.  If you'd chosen a woman, you wouldn't be able to marry.  Again, I think it's the social perception of sexuality = having sex.  Being gay is "Tolerable" now, but it's still not widely seen as an equally positive thing as being heterosexual.  Even the very word choice of "Straight" connotes that to be otherwise is to deviate from a path.

Lola reduced the opening premise of the thread to "Is Jake gay?" whereas I very much read the question in the context of whether or not Jake could freely publicise his sexuality without a negative reaction.  Specifically I think Shelly was drawing attention not to gay bashing and intolerance, but (and I admire her precise word choice) acceptance, even among his own fan base

While some people may be pointing to a lack of beatings and saying "That's acceptance, society is fine", I think that is ignoring the grey areas as we try to bridge the divide between tolerance and acceptance.   Although I wouldn't have thought about it before, I am now quite intrigued as to how a lot of the people here would react if he really was openly gay.  Afterall, the strong opposition and near outrage at the suggestion that Ang Lee might be gay really surprised me.*



*NB this is not to say that I believe Ang is gay or straight, I am merely surprised by the ...vociferous... reaction to the suggestion that he's gay.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: lowcountrygirl on February 17, 2007, 08:38:49 AM
P.S. Thanks for wanting to mass marry us Jeanine!   :-*  We'd love it, but does it mean moving to Utah?  :-\

LOL, I was thinking the same thing! ;D
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: lowcountrygirl on February 17, 2007, 08:39:34 AM
I am awed and amazed and grateful that in a thread where we've experienced such tension, I have been able to discover the beauty in several minds, hearts and souls!!

If group marriage were possible, I would want to marry my Shelly, PLUS Alan and Penny and Lyle! :-* :-* :-*

That's a lovely idea, Jeanine!  :-*  But you are also making a very good point here too, that it is only by joining together that people can make their voices heard and that probably one of the factors that allows discrimination and persecution to occur is isolation and invisibility.

(((((Penny)))))

I completely agree!!
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: lowcountrygirl on February 17, 2007, 08:43:53 AM
Lola reduced the opening premise of the thread to "Is Jake gay?" whereas I very much read the question in the context of whether or not Jake could freely publicise his sexuality without a negative reaction.  Specifically I think Shelly was drawing attention not to gay bashing and intolerance, but (and I admire her precise word choice) acceptance, even among his own fan base

While some people may be pointing to a lack of beatings and saying "That's acceptance, society is fine", I think that is ignoring the grey areas as we try to bridge the divide between tolerance and acceptance.   Although I wouldn't have thought about it before, I am now quite intrigued as to how a lot of the people here would react if he really was openly gay.  Afterall, the strong opposition and near outrage at the suggestion that Ang Lee might be gay really surprised me.*



*NB this is not to say that I believe Ang is gay or straight, I am merely surprised by the ...vociferous... reaction to the suggestion that he's gay.

I'm with you on all of that!

We here on the DC forum are a part of this "accepting" society and we don't always seem to be so accepting, IMO, based on some of the reactions you mentioned.

Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: lowcountrygirl on February 17, 2007, 08:51:29 AM
Straight people usually say this because all they are thinking about in terms of gay people are the actual sex acts.  They never think of someone's sexuality in terms of just being with your partner and being free to hold hands, or a touch, or make a statement about someone, or bring over a friend to someone's house, or if someone comes over to your place have to think about anything being in your house that might give yourself away or not.  Etc.  So as a matter of privacy, it's out there for gay people to see straight people as straight all the time.  It's not private.  We know you are straight.  You are allowed to freely express it.  With gay people it is not always an option.

This is so important to this discussion!

Because if society is accepting, then gay people could hold hands at the mall, or the movies, or walking down a street in the middle of town. Or traveling to an area they are less familiar with, the way straight couples can do without thinking. They could comfortably introduce or refer to their partners as "girlfriend" or "boyfriend" or whatever without regard to who was listening, all of those things Lyle mentioned.

And...those of us who are not straight are often so used to thinking before we speak and answering evasively the way Penny mentioned that I think we recognize it more easily when celebrities do it.

Jeanine


Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: merrobot on February 17, 2007, 12:29:16 PM
It's bizarre that although you're bisexual, you can get married because you chose to marry a man.  If you'd chosen a woman, you wouldn't be able to marry.  Again, I think it's the social perception of sexuality = having sex.  Being gay is "Tolerable" now, but it's still not widely seen as an equally positive thing as being heterosexual.  Even the very word choice of "Straight" connotes that to be otherwise is to deviate from a path.

It irks me too, that in the UK they made a distinction between Civil Parterships and Marriage.  For an equal playing field, everyone should be allowed to have a Marriage.  I also think the subtle difference between societies being 'tolerable' and 'accepting' is one to watch out for - I suspect that sometimes the two terms are being used synonymously while they are not.  There is still the impression that people "accept" that if you are gay then it's "not your fault" and there's nothing that you can do about it.  Now, I don't know to what degree sexual orientation is defined by genetics or environment but there is always appears to be some mileage in the argument "I was born this way".  While I think that is probably true, I don't agree that it should be the sole reason that people accept homosexuality because to choose to be gay or lesbian or bisexual shouldn't be an issue.  It is as valid an identity and lifestyle as heterosexuality and to be truly accepted by society it should be treated as such.  But the fact that it is treated as an anomaly, as something to be excused or swept under the carpet highlights how it is not treated equally to heterosexuality.

Umm...I don't know if I'm even making sense any more!  ::)

Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: LenaLovich on February 17, 2007, 06:13:29 PM
What a great thread!! I used to post in Jake's Eyelashes a year ago but stopped because of how hypocritical posters on that board were regarding questions of Jake's sexuality. Oh, their party line was that it was A-okay to be gay or bisexual but don't you suggest that Jake be any other than STRAIGHT goddammit because he says he's straight. And if he says he's straight, then he IS. Good grief. So I bolted. And yes, I do think Jake is Toothy Tile but I also think Ted C (he has a lot of good sources in the HW community) embroiders a bit to be entertaining to readers.

However, it is my intuitive belief (and I could be wrong--I don't know the guy personally) that Jake is bisexual, just the way Richard Gere is/was bisexual (Lyle, I could hug you--I used to live near Richard in NYC and knew one of his boyfriends from years ago) and Travolta is (I've heard about him for years--he's a very sweet guy by the way). I never heard that about Heath but I believe it (did you read that wickedly delicious blind item from the canada.com that's supposed to be about Heath? HA-HA--although I find it odd he'd hook up online with a twink in Toronto--but c'est la vie). But the point I'm trying to make to that yes someone who is bisexual (or has had a history of bisexuality)can definitely hook up with a woman and have children. It also applies to men who are gay (and I know this firsthand as a hetero woman who got pregnant by a gay man--the old fashioned way).

A bisexual man can be with a woman now but he can (you never know) leave her later on for...a guy. And the same applies to a bisexual woman. (I know of several instances that fit both scenarios).

And about people stating their sexual preferences in the press--Lola, please don't be so naive. Really, girl. I'm a journalist (who covers the arts) and I interface with a lot of publicists. You probably do not know this but nearly EVERY SINGLE CELEB (except for Angelina Jolie who does not have a publicist--I kid you not) does not do an interview for a major publication WITHOUT a publicist close by. There is NO way, NO WAY, Jake or anyone else (unless they're fed up with the BS--ala Neil Patrick Harris) is going to out themselves in a major publication with their spin doctor next to them. Those people would get coronaries if they did that. In fact, if they even suspected they were about to say something leading along the lines of a public declaration, they'll stop the interview to "confer" with their client. I've been to junkets where I've interviewed stars and ANY TIME somebody asks them a question in which said star doesn't have a prefabricated safe response to--they invariably look to their publicist (as if he/she is a parent) to see if they should answer. The publicist rules/controls many of these interviews which is WHY it's often impossible to get a star to say ANYTHING interesting or revelatory. Celeb interviews are often carefully vetted, sanitized, monitored...boring. Only those without publicists (like Jolie) or a veteran who doesn't give a shit (i.e. Eastwood, Nicholson, etc.) will truly say something provocative or halfway interesting. But Jake does have high powered publicists and career-wise, he's not at the latter level to truly say anything that departs from his PR-sanctioned script--that if he wants to or not. Lyle is right: those spin doctors do NOT want him to come out for fear of what it's going to do to their income. Homophobia still rules in Hollywood (as we all know--ie. Brokeback losing to Crash last year), though the irony is so many power-brokers and movers and shakers are gay themselves.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Lyle (Mooska) on February 17, 2007, 06:47:25 PM
It's bizarre that although you're bisexual, you can get married because you chose to marry a man.  If you'd chosen a woman, you wouldn't be able to marry.  Again, I think it's the social perception of sexuality = having sex.  Being gay is "Tolerable" now, but it's still not widely seen as an equally positive thing as being heterosexual.  Even the very word choice of "Straight" connotes that to be otherwise is to deviate from a path.

I saw an interview recently where the reporter was talking with a group of highly polarized right wing religious persons who were adamant that gays should not marry.  That marriage is only for a man and a woman.  The reporter then asked them if they thought it was all right if a gay man married a gay woman and it seems their brains imploded.  It was so amusing.  They did not know what to do.  So he kept pressing their buttons.  They thought a man and woman could marry if they were gay.  So he then said, so you don't mind if gays marry as long as its not the same sex.  I wish I had that interview because when pressed beyond the "talking points" some people really don't know what they believe!

Also, LenaLovich, very interesting post and comments.  Thanks!
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: shelber on February 17, 2007, 08:12:42 PM
hey all

i apologize for my absense,lol, not that i really had much to contribute, everyone has been putting in wonderful thoughts, i have been extremely greatful that when the topic seemed to stray it was brought back.

i do want to add this question within the question

is tolerance and acceptance the same?
not just in the gay community but with whether you are different race, how about interracial marriages or couples for that matter, or adopting a child that is from a diifferent racial ethnic background.

i think the question of whether society is as sccepting as it seems can be broadened to much more than what we have touched on. not that i havent enjoyed all the posts as i am a big believer in free thought.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Kelpersmek on February 18, 2007, 05:06:40 AM
I saw an interview recently where the reporter was talking with a group of highly polarized right wing religious persons who were adamant that gays should not marry.  That marriage is only for a man and a woman.  The reporter then asked them if they thought it was all right if a gay man married a gay woman and it seems their brains imploded.  It was so amusing.  They did not know what to do.  So he kept pressing their buttons.  They thought a man and woman could marry if they were gay.  So he then said, so you don't mind if gays marry as long as its not the same sex.  I wish I had that interview because when pressed beyond the "talking points" some people really don't know what they believe!

That sounds like a brilliant interview, if you ever find an online version or transcript, please let me know!
Again the religious interpretation seems to be that sexuality is the same thing as sex.  Who you are attracted to, how you feel, these are minor considerations.  It's much more important to God to know where people put their penis.  That's the most fascinating thing for a being who creates a universe.  Never mind the unimaginable kaleidescope of forces thrown out by a collapsing star, or the life that thrives in minute pockets of underwater volcanoes despite the insanely harsh conditions.  Ignore the vast array of electrical activity that turns collection of photons into a painted landscape, via the mind and body of an artist.  Forget the shearing of space and time itself as the colossal gravity of a black hole warps the universe around it like a rubber band twisted around a finger.  Instead most of Christianity is assured that God is intently focusing his vast intellect on a few inches of flesh.

Is it any wonder that the more complex grey areas cause brain-sprain? 

Quote from:  shelber
is tolerance and acceptance the same?
not just in the gay community but with whether you are different race, how about interracial marriages or couples for that matter, or adopting a child that is from a different racial ethnic background.

If we go back to the parochial view of society, then I think racism has improved in the UK, but it is far from an accepting society if you're a minority.  Certainly I believe we have advanced in tolerance, and much more so than is the case with homosexuality.  Nonetheless it seems to be even more heavily dependent on location.  Areas with large Asylum Seeker populations can breed the most extreme racism, as well as areas where the local Caucasian population is outnumbered by other ethnicities.  Interestingly a friend of mine was living in such an area until recently, and it spawns off some very counter-intuitive views.

The British National Party (BNP) is a group who are pretty much the political racist camp.  They claim to be racialist, not racist, and define this as "The Races should not mix".  They officially take the position that they don't want to commit genocide, but rather that they want to separate out different races into geographical locations, and forbid them to mix (any of this sound familiar?).  To them inter-racial marriage and mixed race children are an absolute abomination.  They tend to have the sleazy suits up front, and the skinheads with Union Jack t-shirts following not far behind.

Now, in Bradford there is a huge Black and Asian population, and a much smaller Caucasian one.  The BNP have strong support from the disaffected white population who bang on about "They come over here and steal our jobs and our wimmin".  What I found bizarre is that a lot of Black and Asian folks support the BNP there too.  Despite my categorizing the BNP as anti-Black, anti-Asian etc. in my own mind, I am making a huge mistake.  They are racist, and so attractive to other racists, regardless of their own race.  So Asian families who are very concerned with keeping their "bloodline pure" and stopping interracial relationships, often align themselves with the BNP. 

It was quite an eye opener for me.

The other major strand of racism here (other than the Asylum Seeker issues which the press are fanatical about) is the blend of culture and race.  Britain has a large Muslim population, and most of them are also non-Caucasian.  The tenants of Islam, and the recent world-political actions of groups claiming to be acting on their religious beliefs have made things quite tense.  Islam and its tenants, however, are far from straightforward.  There is a considerable mix of Middle-Eastern culture that poses as the beliefs of Islam, but is in fact just custom and cultural, rather than religious.  It is some of these customs which are greatly objected to (especially in regards to treatment of women) and the issues then get caught up into some giant mish-mash.  Is it religious intolerance?  Racism?  An issue of cultural integration?  A mixture?  It's a difficult issue, and one that requires careful teasing apart to understand at a useful level.

Saying that I have yapped on long enough for the moment.  Over to someone else!  ;D
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: lowcountrygirl on February 18, 2007, 06:57:10 PM

However, it is my intuitive belief (and I could be wrong--I don't know the guy personally) that Jake is bisexual...

I agree, my intuitive belief is that Jake is not straight.

Quote
Only those without publicists (like Jolie) or a veteran who doesn't give a shit (i.e. Eastwood, Nicholson, etc.) will truly say something provocative or halfway interesting. But Jake does have high powered publicists and career-wise, he's not at the latter level to truly say anything that departs from his PR-sanctioned script--that if he wants to or not. Lyle is right: those spin doctors do NOT want him to come out for fear of what it's going to do to their income. Homophobia still rules in Hollywood (as we all know--ie. Brokeback losing to Crash last year), though the irony is so many power-brokers and movers and shakers are gay themselves.

That has got to feel like such a trap for everyone involved!!

Great to see you here, LenaLovich!

There is still the impression that people "accept" that if you are gay then it's "not your fault" and there's nothing that you can do about it.  Now, I don't know to what degree sexual orientation is defined by genetics or environment but there is always appears to be some mileage in the argument "I was born this way".  While I think that is probably true, I don't agree that it should be the sole reason that people accept homosexuality because to choose to be gay or lesbian or bisexual shouldn't be an issue.  It is as valid an identity and lifestyle as heterosexuality and to be truly accepted by society it should be treated as such.  But the fact that it is treated as an anomaly, as something to be excused or swept under the carpet highlights how it is not treated equally to heterosexuality.

Penny, what a great point!!

Again the religious interpretation seems to be that sexuality is the same thing as sex.  Who you are attracted to, how you feel, these are minor considerations.  It's much more important to God to know where people put their penis.  That's the most fascinating thing for a being who creates a universe.

If love is the most important thing, and I believe it is, then who you love has got to be a secondary concern!

And who you love has got to be more important than which body parts are matching up!

At least that's what this Christian believes!

Jeanine
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: shelber on February 18, 2007, 08:00:23 PM



If love is the most important thing, and I believe it is, then who you love has got to be a secondary concern!

And who you love has got to be more important than which body parts are matching up!

At least that's what this Christian believes!

Jeanine


i couldnt agree more.

just because as my beautiful sweetie jeanine said "than which body parts match up" shouldnt matter, your heart knows, and to fake anything else will not only hurt you, but also the person you are un truthful too.

and i am ever so glad that i love jeanine!!!!
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: graylockV on February 18, 2007, 08:51:43 PM
Love is not about body parts.  Any two emotionally mature people can love each other.  If they do, there are many ways to express that love.  Some of those ways are sexual.  Some of those sexual ways are procreative, some are not.  In fact, I venture that most are not.

The ability to love one another is what distinguishes human beings from other members of the animal kingdom.  When some people dwell on the compatibility of body parts they are, whether they know it or not, evaluating human beings on purely an animalistic level.  Thus denying what is at the core of our basic humanity: our ability to give and receive love.

When we find that there are not enough children being born to sustain the human race I will start to consider whether a so-called "proper" or "natural" use of body parts is central to being human.  But not before then.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: LenaLovich on February 18, 2007, 10:15:23 PM
Thanks for welcoming onto the thread. This is an OT but let's give a hand to my home state of NJ--the Garden State for being the third state to legalize same-sex civil unions. Yeah!!!
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: lowcountrygirl on February 19, 2007, 03:54:08 PM
Thanks for welcoming onto the thread. This is an OT but let's give a hand to my home state of NJ--the Garden State for being the third state to legalize same-sex civil unions. Yeah!!!

*applauds*
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: shelber on February 20, 2007, 01:16:13 AM
Thanks for welcoming onto the thread. This is an OT but let's give a hand to my home state of NJ--the Garden State for being the third state to legalize same-sex civil unions. Yeah!!!

*applauds*


yes, glad you are here! and thats cool about NJ i have now added your state to my christmas list!!  ;D
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Nax on February 20, 2007, 02:06:41 AM
Thanks for welcoming onto the thread. This is an OT but let's give a hand to my home state of NJ--the Garden State for being the third state to legalize same-sex civil unions. Yeah!!!
Welcome Lena (My lucky number's 1 - still have that on 12" vinyl). Yes a big hand for NJ
(http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h95/naxman_photos/BBM/Applause.gif)
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: merrobot on February 23, 2007, 04:44:53 AM
I found this article when I was browsing about for something else.  It's a bit out of date which is why I haven't posted it on the media thread (maybe I should, I don't know) but I thought it was also relevant to the discussion we have been having here.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A49856-2004Sep25.html

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A52563-2004Sep26.html

It's about a gay teenager in Oklahoma who, after being featured in the Washington Post, I discovered was targeted by Fred Phelps and his church.

http://www.hrc.org/Template.cfm?Section=Home&CONTENTID=24052&TEMPLATE=/ContentManagement/ContentDisplay.cfm

Now, there are a number of issues that Michael's story raises - his mother's reaction was to try and find a 'cure' for him as her strong Christian beliefs meant she feared that by allowing him to be gay she was jeopardizing his eternal salvation.  I guess I can understand where she is coming from even if I don't agree with her.  It is just so sad that the apparent only option is to suffer in this life in order to be free in the next.

The article mentions bullying to such a degree that Michael cannot go to the bathroom at school and eventually drops out.  Again, it seems that there is no tolerance nevermind acceptance of him.  I'm sure there will be other gay teens at his school (in fact he has more openly gay friend who seems to attract a lot of negative attention) but presumably they try to "blend in" and not get noticed.  Again, that is neither tolerance or acceptance.  Michael's friend does try to set up a Gay-Straight Alliance but again it is telling that some kids come to school wearing "Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve" t-shirts.

One other thing that struck me was the isolation and the fact that Michael appears to be looking for role models.  I've already mentioned role models but I think it's important.  When Michael gets his eyebrow pierced and starts listening to Cher even though he'd rather listen to country and be under his truck covered in grease, it seems obvious that what he lacks is a role model who speaks to him and his experience.  I was lucky when I was a teenager that I lived close to a big city and could buy gay books and magazines and see that there was so much more diversity than I would ever have realised.  Again, I think the stereotypes and the idea that you have to be "a certain way" in order to be gay (or not) is another way of putting distance between people and promoting prejudice.

I have to say, I came away from reading these articles thinking, "how on earth can I make a difference in this?"  If anyone has any suggestions, I'd love to hear them!
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: lowcountrygirl on February 23, 2007, 06:59:55 PM
I found this article when I was browsing about for something else.  It's a bit out of date which is why I haven't posted it on the media thread (maybe I should, I don't know) but I thought it was also relevant to the discussion we have been having here.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A49856-2004Sep25.html

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A52563-2004Sep26.html

It's about a gay teenager in Oklahoma who, after being featured in the Washington Post, I discovered was targeted by Fred Phelps and his church.

http://www.hrc.org/Template.cfm?Section=Home&CONTENTID=24052&TEMPLATE=/ContentManagement/ContentDisplay.cfm

I have to say, I came away from reading these articles thinking, "how on earth can I make a difference in this?"  If anyone has any suggestions, I'd love to hear them!

Those articles were heartbreaking!!

I want to make a difference, too.

Jeanine
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: annabel on February 24, 2007, 06:29:05 AM
I don't know how relevant this is, but I'm involved in an online group of people in recovery.  A poster came on to tell their story about their boyfriend .  This person wanted to know if their boyfriend was an enabler. The advice and support came pouring out from about 15 other members.  Then the person posted that by the way, he was a man.  The advice dried up.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: lowcountrygirl on February 24, 2007, 08:37:19 AM
I don't know how relevant this is, but I'm involved in an online group of people in recovery.  A poster came on to tell their story about their boyfriend .  This person wanted to know if their boyfriend was an enabler. The advice and support came pouring out from about 15 other members.  Then the person posted that by the way, he was a man.  The advice dried up.

Seems relevant to me!

And how sad that that would happen in a recovery group!!
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: annabel on February 25, 2007, 06:25:35 AM
It is very sad.  We (people in recovery) should know better than to treat others differently. As a recovering opiate addict, I would hate it if people thought of me as an addict first and a person second.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: lowcountrygirl on February 25, 2007, 11:15:24 AM
It is very sad.  We (people in recovery) should know better than to treat others differently. As a recovering opiate addict, I would hate it if people thought of me as an addict first and a person second.

I agree!!

I used to go to adult child meetings (ACOA) and I'm pretty sure there were gay people who came regularly to the meeting I went to, but now that I think of it, I don't remember them ever talking about being gay or coming out or their relationships. Maybe they didn't feel like they could? I don't know.

I wasn't out to myself yet, so probably wasn't really paying attention.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: lowcountrygirl on February 25, 2007, 06:00:13 PM
Here's something I've been wondering...

How do the closeted men in Hollywood or show biz know who to partner with or does it happen by accident that they find women who become their covers/beards/whatever? It has been rumored that Penelope Cruz might be one such person.

Tonight, I was thinking about Tracey Edmonds, currently dating Eddie Murphy (who has been the subject of gay rumors), who used to be married to Kenneth Edmonds (R&B songwriter/singer) who I always wondered about because he seemed so effeminate.

Clearly, I don't know about these guys I've just mentioned, but I'm wondering for guys who are in the closet but partnered with women, do they make an agreement or do the women not know going in that their partners aren't straight?
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Lyle (Mooska) on February 25, 2007, 09:00:03 PM
It has been rumored that Penelope Cruz might be one such person.

This isn't answering your main question, but a woman from Mexico that I worked with many years ago was telling me all about Penelope Cruz (the rumors you mentioned) before anyone in the U.S. knew who she was!  So, when Tom Cruise was interested in her I was like, here we go again!
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: lowcountrygirl on February 26, 2007, 09:34:09 PM
It has been rumored that Penelope Cruz might be one such person.

This isn't answering your main question, but a woman from Mexico that I worked with many years ago was telling me all about Penelope Cruz (the rumors you mentioned) before anyone in the U.S. knew who she was!  So, when Tom Cruise was interested in her I was like, here we go again!


She had dinner with Jake recently in London, I think.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: chiaros on March 03, 2007, 03:00:00 PM
An Op-Ed/"Culture Complex" by James Poniewozik in Time magazine:
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1592862,00.html

An extract:
Quote
That's not to say a gay man couldn't host the Oscars (an out gay man--Rock Hudson co-hosted in 1973), but it's hard to think offhand of one who could. Lesbians simply don't inspire the kind of social-sexual unease that gay men do. Two chicks kissing is a male fantasy, a sweeps stunt. Two dudes kissing is gross-out humor. It's Sacha Baron Cohen open-mouthing Will Ferrell in Talladega Nights. It's a million Brokeback Mountain jokes. It's the Snickers Super Bowl ad, in which two mechanics locked lips while sharing a candy bar. (Or, as Freud might have said, a "candy bar.") Even in post-- Queer Eye pop culture, lesbians can choose lovers; gay men can choose drapes.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: merrobot on March 04, 2007, 05:28:20 AM
An Op-Ed/"Culture Complex" by James Poniewozik in Time magazine:

That's an interesting article and raises an issue that I think has been alluded to on this thread - the idea that society is more accepting of lesbians than gay men.  However, the article also raises the issue that the more vocal a woman is about her lesbianism, the less accepted she is and that by comparison, society isn't really accepting of gay men. 

I think this particular article is also a little dismissive of the immediate impact that coming out had on Ellen's career.  Her sitcom was pulled after her character came out (due to poor ratings), she was sent death threats (there was a bomb scare before they filmed her 'coming out' episode) and some Christian organisations boycotted Disney - and in one instance sent her a decapitated Winnie the Pooh toy. 

I think the article is trying to show how attitudes have changed but I'm not convinced that there has been such a big progression.  Ellen dropped a bombshell, experienced the fall out and now that the dust has settled is carrying on.  Ten years later, I think people have mostly put it to the back of their minds and any mention of her sexual orientation, from what I can gather is pretty subtle, for example the recent telephone messages that were aired on her show from Jake Gyllenhaal asking her on a date were answered with a coy "Jake, I've already explained my situation to you."  It seems to reinforce this idea that people will tolerate homosexuality as long as people "keep it to themselves" or "don't rub my nose in it" - which is not acceptance or tolerance and has to be overcome.

Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Lola on March 05, 2007, 01:47:19 PM
WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Prominent politicians from both parties and a gay-rights group on Saturday condemned right-wing commentator Ann Coulter for her reference Friday to Democratic presidential candidate John Edwards as a "faggot."

"Ann Coulter's use of an anti-gay slur yesterday was un-American and indefensible," Edwards said in a posting on his Web site, www.johnedwards.com.

"In America, we strive for equality and embrace diversity. The kind of hateful language she used has no place in political debate or our society at large.

"I believe it is our moral responsibility to speak out against that kind of bigotry and prejudice every time we encounter it."

http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/03/04/coulter.edwards/index.html
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: graylockV on March 05, 2007, 07:39:46 PM
WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Prominent politicians from both parties and a gay-rights group on Saturday condemned right-wing commentator Ann Coulter for her reference Friday to Democratic presidential candidate John Edwards as a "faggot."


Ann Coulter is a notorious publicity whore.  She says outrageous things to get into the news and sell more of her books to the "vast right-wing conspiracy."  The REAL question is why the American Conservative Union invited her to speak, and why anyone would think she has any valid insights into anything.  She considers all "liberals" to be traitors - I think her most recent book's title is based on that assertion.

Does she really believe all that she says?  Probably, but mostly she is thrilled by the publicity she generates and by the $$$ that comes from it.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: estefue on March 05, 2007, 08:13:32 PM
I couldn't agree more.  And how about Mitt Romney??  People should be treated with dignity?  After all his efforts to invalidate same sex marriage in Massacusetts?
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: maidenofthesea on March 06, 2007, 11:50:52 AM
This is something a friend sent to me in an email in regards to the need to defend Jake's sexuality as being straight. I have to agree with it whole heartedly.


To me, if you really accept all identities and sexual orientations, then saying Jake is bi/queer is the same as saying he was born in California. Not something he can change, a fact. Not slander or libel, a compliment.
And when the person I fought with tried to tell me that I was being unrealistic about "what that would do to his career," I reminded her that we don't control Jake's career from a message board owned by some guy in Denver.
 
To say that it's damaging to speculate that Jake is bi is participating in the bigotry that killed Jack.


Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: merrobot on March 06, 2007, 11:57:40 AM
This is something a friend sent to me in an email in regards to the need to defend Jake's sexuality as being straight. I have to agree with it whole heartedly.


To me, if you really accept all identities and sexual orientations, then saying Jake is bi/queer is the same as saying he was born in California. Not something he can change, a fact. Not slander or libel, a compliment.
And when the person I fought with tried to tell me that I was being unrealistic about "what that would do to his career," I reminded her that we don't control Jake's career from a message board owned by some guy in Denver.
 
To say that it's damaging to speculate that Jake is bi is participating in the bigotry that killed Jack.


I completely agree with you here with regard to what your friend says about any speculation about his sexual orientation (here or elsewhere) being unlikely to have an impact on Jake's career.  However, to take things one step further, I think there is perhaps more validity in the concerns that some people have expressed that for Jake to actually come out as a gay or bisexual man may have a negative impact on his career.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: maidenofthesea on March 06, 2007, 12:00:13 PM
This is something a friend sent to me in an email in regards to the need to defend Jake's sexuality as being straight. I have to agree with it whole heartedly.


To me, if you really accept all identities and sexual orientations, then saying Jake is bi/queer is the same as saying he was born in California. Not something he can change, a fact. Not slander or libel, a compliment.
And when the person I fought with tried to tell me that I was being unrealistic about "what that would do to his career," I reminded her that we don't control Jake's career from a message board owned by some guy in Denver.
 
To say that it's damaging to speculate that Jake is bi is participating in the bigotry that killed Jack.


I completely agree with you here with regard to what your friend says about any speculation about his sexual orientation (here or elsewhere) being unlikely to have an impact on Jake's career.  However, to take things one step further, I think there is perhaps more validity in the concerns that some people have expressed that for Jake to actually come out as a gay or bisexual man may have a negative impact on his career.

Well that's fine. But I guess I've never assigned myself as a defender of his career. I hope others do not as well. Only Jake can look after Jake.

I am among the fans that encourage him to be who he is, himself completely. His real fans will love him regardless. I hate to think of Jake playing the game to the extent of living a lie. I sincerely hope that is not the case, if that's what his fans who use that excuse are implying.

Good to see you over here April!  :)
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: merrobot on March 06, 2007, 12:08:27 PM
Well that's fine. But I guess I've never assigned myself as a defender of his career. I hope others do not as well. Only Jake can look after Jake.

I am among the fans that encourage him to be who he is, himself completely. His real fans will love him regardless. I hate to think of Jake playing the game to the extent of living a lie. I sincerely hope that is not the case, if that's what his fans who use that excuse are implying.

Perhaps I didn't make myself clear - I'm not saying for one moment that I agree that anyone should remain in the closet for fear of reprisal.  Not at all - but it is a risk you take.  As you say, his real fans will accept him completely for who he is and what he does - however, as you also say, we aren't the movers and shakers of the film industry who have the power to hire and fire him. 

I think that is partly where this thread came from - the question of whether society as a whole is ready to fully accept LGBT folks.

Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: maidenofthesea on March 06, 2007, 12:10:37 PM
Well that's fine. But I guess I've never assigned myself as a defender of his career. I hope others do not as well. Only Jake can look after Jake.

I am among the fans that encourage him to be who he is, himself completely. His real fans will love him regardless. I hate to think of Jake playing the game to the extent of living a lie. I sincerely hope that is not the case, if that's what his fans who use that excuse are implying.

Perhaps I didn't make myself clear - I'm not saying for one moment that I agree that anyone should remain in the closet for fear of reprisal.  Not at all - but it is a risk you take.  As you say, his real fans will accept him completely for who he is and what he does - however, as you also say, we aren't the movers and shakers of the film industry who have the power to hire and fire him. 

I think that is partly where this thread came from - the question of whether society as a whole is ready to fully accept LGBT folks.



You're absolutely right. I guess the point isn't about us and what we think at all when all is said and done. WE all have our own opinions on the matter. I suppose my point was without stating it is I hope we can all express them clearly in this venue. And sadly, I can't help but think those of us who believe he or other entertainers are not straight, are chastised for believing so. So it really does beg the question the board asks, are we as accepting as we claim to be?
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: lowcountrygirl on March 06, 2007, 12:15:00 PM
Well that's fine. But I guess I've never assigned myself as a defender of his career. I hope others do not as well. Only Jake can look after Jake.

I am among the fans that encourage him to be who he is, himself completely. His real fans will love him regardless. I hate to think of Jake playing the game to the extent of living a lie. I sincerely hope that is not the case, if that's what his fans who use that excuse are implying.

Perhaps I didn't make myself clear - I'm not saying for one moment that I agree that anyone should remain in the closet for fear of reprisal.  Not at all - but it is a risk you take.  As you say, his real fans will accept him completely for who he is and what he does - however, as you also say, we aren't the movers and shakers of the film industry who have the power to hire and fire him. 

I think that is partly where this thread came from - the question of whether society as a whole is ready to fully accept LGBT folks.


And it's not! Even here (DC forum) there seems to be a lot of negative emotional energy stirred up when anyone suggests he might not be straight and we are the people who liked and supported BBM!!

If it wouldn't be safe for him to come out to some of us, it certainly isn't safe in Hollywood.

But I am not saying, either, that people "should" remain closeted. I can't make that choice for someone else. What I'm saying is I fully understand why he or someone else would.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: merrobot on March 06, 2007, 12:17:28 PM
You're absolutely right. I guess the point isn't about us and what we think at all when all is said and done. WE all have our own opinions on the matter. I suppose my point was without stating it is I hope we can all express them clearly in this venue. And sadly, I can't help but think those of us who believe he or other entertainers are not straight, are chastised for believing so. So it really does beg the question the board asks, are we as accepting as we claim to be?

I've picked up on that too but I try to chalk it up to my misunderstanding of where people are coming from i.e. that people are more worried about Jake's sexuality as a privacy issue than that they really believe that in some way saying he's not straight is a slanderous thing.  I have also picked up that most people take 'straight' as the 'default' sexual orientation.  I just try to assume nothing  :)
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: maidenofthesea on March 06, 2007, 12:19:02 PM


I've picked up on that too but I try to chalk it up to my misunderstanding of where people are coming from i.e. that people are more worried about Jake's sexuality as a privacy issue than that they really believe that in some way saying he's not straight is a slanderous thing.  I have also picked up that most people take 'straight' as the 'default' sexual orientation.  I just try to assume nothing  :)

Oh no that can't be it considering most of these people hover over any gossip or rag sites with his pap pics on them and post them for all to see!  :D
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: merrobot on March 06, 2007, 12:21:54 PM
But I am not saying, either, that people "should" remain closeted. I can't make that choice for someone else. What I'm saying is I fully understand why he or someone else would.

It really depends on an individual's situation.  Someone sent me some youtube clips of Shirley Phelps-Roper a few days ago and I would absolutely never have come out as a teenager if I knew about people like her.  But maybe I'm getting off topic...
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: lowcountrygirl on March 06, 2007, 12:28:17 PM
I've picked up on that too but I try to chalk it up to my misunderstanding of where people are coming from i.e. that people are more worried about Jake's sexuality as a privacy issue than that they really believe that in some way saying he's not straight is a slanderous thing. 

Like the person who, earlier on this thread, said we should "mind our own business"? ;)

I think concern for his privacy might be connected to fear about what would happen of his sexuality were public, which is a legitimate concern.

But I also agree with what Chas said. We, here, are not all as accepting as we claim. At least not where our Jake is concerned.

Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: lowcountrygirl on March 06, 2007, 12:32:01 PM
But I am not saying, either, that people "should" remain closeted. I can't make that choice for someone else. What I'm saying is I fully understand why he or someone else would.

It really depends on an individual's situation.  Someone sent me some youtube clips of Shirley Phelps-Roper a few days ago and I would absolutely never have come out as a teenager if I knew about people like her.  But maybe I'm getting off topic...

You came out as a teenager? Wow! That's admirable.

I was quite the late bloomer, myself, and am not completely out even now.

And yes, religious extremists and even, regular Christians I knew growing up helped me believe that I "better not be" anything but straight. I have worked through that but not because the religious right has changed.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: maidenofthesea on March 06, 2007, 12:35:22 PM
Here's a question:

Do you guys wonder, as society (hopefully) grows more accepting of homosexuality, will they do the same for bisexuality? Even now its the dirty step child of both sides, too gay for the heterosexuals, too straight for the homosexuals.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: planetgal471 on March 06, 2007, 12:50:08 PM
I personally hope that society is moving towards simply realizing that people are sexual beings, and that and gender orientation are fluid creatures. I think it's a harder leap because it's different from how we're taught to think of people as being a member of this group or that group, so it might be slow catching on, but I do think it will happen.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: merrobot on March 06, 2007, 01:07:17 PM
You came out as a teenager? Wow! That's admirable.

I was quite the late bloomer, myself, and am not completely out even now.

And yes, religious extremists and even, regular Christians I knew growing up helped me believe that I "better not be" anything but straight. I have worked through that but not because the religious right has changed.

I didn't come out completely but I did come out to my friends at high school and university and my parents "found out" so I didn't really have much of a choice with that one (I wasn't going to deny it).  I was on the gay scene from the age of about 15.  I tend not to get into discussing my sexual orientation now as it's very fluid and I just don't quite know what people would make of it.

I have to say, I'm not a Christian now but I was and I don't find Westborough Baptist's message to reflect my experience of God or scripture.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: merrobot on March 06, 2007, 01:20:52 PM
Do you guys wonder, as society (hopefully) grows more accepting of homosexuality, will they do the same for bisexuality? Even now its the dirty step child of both sides, too gay for the heterosexuals, too straight for the homosexuals.

I think there are two stereotypes of bisexuals which make life difficult.  The first is the "it's trendy to be bisexual" notion which serves to minimise the validity of bisexuality as a sexual orientation.  The other is the belief that bisexuals are promiscious, greedy, insatiable - best summarised by "wanting to have your cake AND eat it AND want everyone else's cake too".  I can't speak for anyone else but I've never been with a partner of one sex and felt like I was "missing" something that I thought I could only get from the other.  For me, it's about loving one person for all that they are and gender doesn't really come into it.  I wonder if that is partly why some people find bisexuality hard to understand - it shakes up their perception of relationships and blurs the lines between what is seen as a sexual dichotomy (gay or straight).
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: lowcountrygirl on March 06, 2007, 01:54:46 PM
I didn't come out completely but I did come out to my friends at high school and university and my parents "found out" so I didn't really have much of a choice with that one (I wasn't going to deny it).  I was on the gay scene from the age of about 15.  I tend not to get into discussing my sexual orientation now as it's very fluid and I just don't quite know what people would make of it.

I have to say, I'm not a Christian now but I was and I don't find Westborough Baptist's message to reflect my experience of God or scripture.

I am a Christian and that's not my experience either.

I don't see how, with all that hatred in their hearts, there's room for any god but themselves!
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: merrobot on March 06, 2007, 02:32:51 PM
I don't see how, with all that hatred in their hearts, there's room for any god but themselves!

I was just relieved that at least on the interviews I saw they were not being taken seriously, in fact many people were very critical of their methods and message and saying "what you are doing is wrong, what you are preaching is intolerance and hate and anger".  But it's a spectrum and I think we need to be aware of what else is going on away from the extremities.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: lowcountrygirl on March 06, 2007, 02:44:46 PM
I don't see how, with all that hatred in their hearts, there's room for any god but themselves!

I was just relieved that at least on the interviews I saw they were not being taken seriously, in fact many people were very critical of their methods and message and saying "what you are doing is wrong, what you are preaching is intolerance and hate and anger".  But it's a spectrum and I think we need to be aware of what else is going on away from the extremities.

Yep. We need to be aware of the entire spectrum.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: merrobot on March 06, 2007, 04:05:50 PM
I couldn't agree more.  And how about Mitt Romney??  People should be treated with dignity?  After all his efforts to invalidate same sex marriage in Massacusetts?

Not being in the States, I hadn't heard of this guy so I Googled his Election priorities.  I have to say - he's like my Nemesis!  He's against same-sex marriage, emergency contraception for rape victims, and supports the death penalty.  Pretty hideous collection of views all in all.  The only saving grace is that he seems to make some effort to keep his personal beliefs somewhat separate from his political activities but I suspect that once in power that might go out the window.

The who's who list is here: http://www.ontheissues.org/2008_Speculation.htm

I'm all for Hillary  ;D
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: lowcountrygirl on March 07, 2007, 01:29:52 PM
I couldn't agree more.  And how about Mitt Romney??  People should be treated with dignity?  After all his efforts to invalidate same sex marriage in Massacusetts?

Not being in the States, I hadn't heard of this guy so I Googled his Election priorities.  I have to say - he's like my Nemesis!  He's against same-sex marriage, emergency contraception for rape victims, and supports the death penalty.  Pretty hideous collection of views all in all.  The only saving grace is that he seems to make some effort to keep his personal beliefs somewhat separate from his political activities but I suspect that once in power that might go out the window.

The who's who list is here: http://www.ontheissues.org/2008_Speculation.htm

I'm all for Hillary  ;D

Well, I'd love to have a lesbian president, so if she got elected and it turned out the rumors were true, that would be great!!
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: planetgal471 on March 07, 2007, 01:46:36 PM
I have a crush on Al Gore  :-[
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: lowcountrygirl on March 07, 2007, 01:53:22 PM
I have a crush on Al Gore  :-[

I like him an awful lot, but no crush.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: merrobot on March 08, 2007, 03:24:52 PM
Well, I'd love to have a lesbian president, so if she got elected and it turned out the rumors were true, that would be great!!

Lol!  That sure would be something, wouldn't it!!  I think she could do a lot of good though, I really do - all her policies seem to promote tolerance and equality.  I wish we had someone similar in the UK  ::)
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: chiaros on March 11, 2007, 03:29:40 PM
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/11/magazine/11wwlnlede.t.html?_r=1&ref=magazine&oref=slogin
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: bradINblue on March 11, 2007, 04:16:26 PM
Chiaros, thanks for that link. I've got quite a few Nextgeners working for me, and this is their position. For them, when discussing politics, very few of them cling firmly to the left or the right. While most (all?) of the guys are straight, they also don't seem to care about anyone being gay.

Brad
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Brokeback_1 on March 11, 2007, 06:48:39 PM
I'll be damned, read that linked story and that's how IIIII feel about both matters. To a T.

No wonder the kid and I get along so well.....
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: bradINblue on March 11, 2007, 08:04:37 PM
I'll be damned, read that linked story and that's how IIIII feel about both matters. To a T.

No wonder the kid and I get along so well.....

yeah Jack, me too, and just think how nasty some folks can be cause' we think like that.

brad
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: chiaros on March 13, 2007, 06:55:14 PM
bradINblue and brokeback_1,

Glad the article interested you.  I am not sure I share your opinion about abortion. Still, in the general context of the subject (and article) our generation may not attain equivalence between all persuasions, but the next very well might.  That is a hope which I would like to think will be borne out.  One of my close friends (a heterosexual female) had always said to me that she thought it would be likely that those who were growing up now would correct the hateful environment now present and that in 50 years people would be wondering "what that was all about"...  Perhaps she is right.

Cheers,

Chiaros.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Brokeback_1 on March 13, 2007, 07:55:43 PM
I'm confused about abortion. It's a woman's body, oh yesyesyes. And ideally, there are so many ways to NOT get pregnant.....
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: LenaLovich on March 15, 2007, 11:26:43 PM
I will make this brief because this is a subject (pro-choice) that touches a very strong visceral nerve in me for reasons I will divulge but...Roe vs. Wade saved my life when I was a very young woman. And after the abortion was over, when I knew I wasn't going to be die at the hands of a back-alley butcher (like women of a previous generation), when I was lying prone in the recovery room in this clean, well-lit clinic, operated by a staff of highly competent, thoughtful, sensitive medical professionals, the only thing I could think of after the anesthesiologist woke me up and told me it was over was, "Thank god for the Supreme Court."

I will not comment any further on this.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: john john on March 16, 2007, 09:18:22 AM
Up here in Canada a woman has a right to choose, abortions are paid by the public health system and I am happy to pay taxes to support women who want or need it.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: maidenofthesea on March 16, 2007, 09:31:43 AM
Up here in Canada a woman has a right to choose, abortions are paid by the public health system and I am happy to pay taxes to support women who want or need it.

Here, here.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: chiaros on March 17, 2007, 09:37:30 AM
http://men.style.com/details/blogs/details/workplace_sexuality/index.html
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Brokeback_1 on March 18, 2007, 02:34:44 PM
I'm confused by it. All the women I've known who had abortions regret it. And all of those women support the right to choose. While every one wishes there were alternatives.

I don't have the right to make that decision for women, I'm not a woman. At the same time I'd like--as a potential partner, parent, whatever, who made half the fetus---some acknowledgement that 2 people have responsibility for it.

I just would like clear direction from women who aren't politicising it, while hoping the men who can't bear children STFU and allow the women to decide. And some acknowledgement from those women that a woman doesn't do it all herself...

It's just so crazy out there.....
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: lowcountrygirl on March 18, 2007, 10:55:45 PM
http://men.style.com/details/blogs/details/workplace_sexuality/index.html

Great article!!

Nice to know there are some workplace environments where it's not only safe to be "out" but where being gay seems to contribute to workplace morale.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: planetgal471 on March 18, 2007, 11:07:37 PM
On question I have is whether there might be a Tuskeegee effect. The Tuskeegee airmen weren't the best because black men are fundamentally better than white men, but because to excel in the face of such adversity and prejudice, they had to be better than everyone else. Maybe gay men face adversity, so the ones that rise to upper level management simply are good managers? That's why they have excelled in the face of adversity? I don't know that it is true, but the article didn't really address other causes of the observed phenomenon, and it was the first one that occurred to me. We have this in science as well. The average female scientist is three times better than the average male scientist just because you're working at a prejudice you have to overcome, and you have to be better than average to overcome it.

Although it could also be what the article said. ^shrug^ It didn't address lesbian managers, which presumably had to endure the same environment in high school.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: jpq716 on March 19, 2007, 08:50:36 AM
It is both difficult and unwise to generalize. Some places in our society are indeed places where differences in sexual orientation have been confronted openly and resolved successfully as being no big deal. But I haven’t found many such places. People are more careful about their homophobia these days than they used to be, but it still exists and it still is a tremendous obstacle to gay peoples’ survival, not to mention their success and happiness. And the reason why homophobia is so strong and so violent, I fear, is because, in the end, it is genetically determined and not just socially conditioned. And such being the case, the best that gay people can hope for in our society --- by and large --- is to be protected legally from this homophobia. But I am sad to say that I think that homophobia will never go away in our society and that there is only such much that education can do to neutralize it. By all means, I advocate the educational approach (i.e. things will be easier for you in our society if you cease to make a big deal out of sexual orientation). But the bottom line, I fear, is the legal approach (i.e. things will be harder for you in our society if you do not cease to make a big deal out of sexual orientation). And that, I am sad to say, is just the way that things are…
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: merrobot on March 19, 2007, 10:53:46 AM
People are more careful about their homophobia these days than they used to be, but it still exists and it still is a tremendous obstacle to gay peoples’ survival, not to mention their success and happiness. And the reason why homophobia is so strong and so violent, I fear, is because, in the end, it is genetically determined and not just socially conditioned.

I would be very interested to hear more about what led you to the conclusion that homophobia is genetically determined and to what extent you think societal influences play a role in homophobic attitudes and behaviour?  It is not an argument I have come across before.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Brokeback_1 on March 19, 2007, 12:35:46 PM
To an extent, after thinking on it, jpq might be correct. I've known some very straight/hetero males who would never  bash anyone but were nauseated by the idea of participating in gay sex. It simply would not enter their consciousness. They always seemed to be the same type of person, too, not making a big deal of gayness, not even--as said--remotely basher types, and very successful without being repulsive when it came to women. Gay sex for THEMSELVES nauseated the hell out of them, and no, they weren't secretly gay, far from it.

I used to think they were born that way.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Kelpersmek on March 19, 2007, 01:17:51 PM
I don't have the right to make that decision for women, I'm not a woman.

And indeed, even if you were, I would suggest that it doesn't give any one woman the right to decide what is right for everyone else.  I support the right to choose, even while I acknowledge it is a difficult choice and there are often regrets attached.  Sometimes we do things in life and there was no right and wrong answer.  It's a complex place out there, and we are too often tricked by people who believe the world is black and white.

As for the father's say in abortion, at the moment we are not technologically advanced enough to support the rights of men.  If men were modified to be able to carry a fetus to term, and chose to do so instead of wishing the abortion to go ahead.. then yeah, a new issue opens up.

Until then, the only fair thing to do is make it the woman's choice, since she is the pregnant one.  Just my 2c.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Kelpersmek on March 19, 2007, 01:27:36 PM
And the reason why homophobia is so strong and so violent, I fear, is because, in the end, it is genetically determined and not just socially conditioned.

I am also interested in what leads you to believe homophobia is genetic.  Have you seen research on culturally separated family members who all display homophobia?  Is it just anecdotal?

My first reaction (having not seen any evidence) would be to say that there is no good genetic reason as to why people would be homophobic that I can see.  It's like saying racism is genetic or religious bigotry is genetic. 

Even if these things were genetic, however, is not a reason to be fatalistic.  The greatest genetic drive, the most overwhelming thing in our genetic make-up... our reason for being here.. is to reproduce.  Our DNA 'wants' nothing more than to replicate successfully.  If genetic determinants were so strong as to be impossible to change, we wouldn't have any couples who choose to be childless/childfree (pick your label) or anyone who was gay.  These things are arguably the greatest rebellion against genetic determinism.

Fortunately for us (from my viewpoint) we don't live in a Brave New World.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: jpq716 on March 19, 2007, 01:36:37 PM
I cannot prove it, of course, but I have believed for quite some time that both a homosexual orientation and the homophobic reaction to such an orientation are deeply rooted and even genetic phenomena. (So too, alas, is probably racism as well.) Yes, in many cases, a homophobic reaction is but a panicked response to deeply repressed homosexual feelings, but not in all cases --- and probably not in most. If the driving force behind Darwinian evolution is simply the mindless survival of the fittest (whatever that might turn out to mean), then homophobia may well represent a deeply instinctive antipathy to a gay person who “refuses to play the game.” (By the same token, the homosexual orientation is probably also a genetic condition, which means that it too plays a profound part in the Darwinian scenario, although I cannot understand what this part might be. Of course, we might begin to understand what that part might be on the day that the fundi freaks have hacked the last gay person to pieces for the honor and glory of God, but then it would be too late to rectify the error of judgment, wouldn’t it?)

And if this scenario be true, then, as much as we would like to help create a more rational society by means of education, we have to be realistic and understand that we must create a more rational society by means of law as the only practical alternative to violence. But homophobia is so deeply rooted in human nature and so violent in its expression, even when it is devastatingly self-destructive, that one is almost forced to believe that it is a hereditary and genetic condition. And this homophobia, whose “homophobic genes” would be as difficult to eradicate from the human genome as the supposed “gay genes” of gay people, puts a definite limit on just how completely gay people can be accepted in what has always been  --- and what must ever be, even in Darwinian terms --- a fundamentally heterosexual society. But then, possibly, nature may intend exactly such a profound tension between straight people and gay people for the improvement of the human species as a whole. (Don’t ask me why; I couldn’t know why; but I suspect that there may be some profound evolutionary connection between homosexuality and homophobia.)

These are very dark thoughts, ones that I did not use to think and ones that I wish, even now, that I did not have to think. But the ferocity of the anti-gay crusade during the reign of the Bush fascist junta has shown me the inadequacy of purely sociological approaches to homophobia and suggested the horrifying possibility of a more sociobiological approach. But regardless of whether either approach turns out to be true or not, the ethical approach in both cases is the same. A homosexual orientation in itself is nothing less --- and nothing more --- than a difference like eye color, hair color or left-handedness rather than right-handedness. One cannot work and live among gay people for any extended period of time without coming to the conclusion that gay people are “ordinary people,” just as good and weak as everybody else. (Of course, I am presently in hot water in another thread for stating that, while a small percentage of gay people are absolute saints, another small percentage of them are absolute demons with a profound evil deeply associated with --- but neither resulting from nor attributable to --- their homosexuality. And believe me, in both cases --- the saints and the demons --- I speak out of personal experience.)

The irony of the entire situation is that I personally am drawing rather quickly to the state of old age, which means that sexuality in general is ceasing to be as personally interesting a topic to me than it used to be. I suppose that I ought to be depressed at this gerontological fact --- and I certainly am not relieved about it --- but there it is. In the midst of the ecological and the geopolitical horrors that are madly racing from the future to kill us all, the problems associated with sexual preference, one way or the other, seem so insignificant to me in the great scheme of things. But the anti-gay madness of Dubya’s Amerika is no small matter, either in itself or in its relation to those ecological and geopolitical horrors. We have to deal with that madness, if not for the sake of our collective survival then for the sake of our collective self-respect. But the madness may be deeper in our souls than we can easily accept, and who knows, maybe it too may end up racing from the future to kill us all. And what a sad thing it would be to our species --- so glorious even in its self-destructive blindness --- if that turned out to be the case in the end… <SIGH>
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: john john on March 19, 2007, 02:44:19 PM
Well said jpq716,
I guess the push and pull of natural law is beyond our control.
I believe Homophobia is a learned reflex very much like racism and xenophobia. We tend to be afraid of 'aliens' for fear that our comfortable perception of the world may change for the worst, which is a paradox because IMO change comes from diversity. I believe early education about homosexuality is essential in fighting prejudice.
Here in Montreal, there is an organization (Formation Émergence) composed of mostly straight people who go from school to school to talk to children about homosexuality and the horrors homophobia.

They do remarkable work in trying to change what I've come to call a lazy mindset
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: jpq716 on March 19, 2007, 03:05:42 PM
John John, please do not misunderstand me. I am all in favor of educational efforts like that of Formation Émergence to combat homophobia wherever it exists (even when it exists in your exquisitely beautiful city of Montreal). But the point of my post is that the old saw is correct: education is supremely useful only for those who do not need it. In order to survive, gay people, in the end, need the law on their side, because once they lose that (as they may well be losing that in Dubya’s United States of Amnesia), then the way is open for the pink triangle, the gas chambers and the crematoria… Of course, this time I hope that there is a Masada or a Warsaw Uprising before that is allowed to happen. The Jewish people should not be the only ones to say, with chilling solemnity, “Never Again!”

Yes, John John, there are "lazy mindsets," and if education can rectify them, by all means education should rectify them. But there is great darkness in the world, John John, darkness that education cannot touch. And in the face of that darkness there may come a time when gay people will need to resolve, the way that the Spanish people resolved in 1936, that it is far, far better to die on one's feet than to live on one's knees. As we saw at the end of June, 1969, when gay people on Christopher Street spontaneously, and terminally, chose death (if it came to that) before dishonor any longer...
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: john john on March 19, 2007, 03:23:46 PM
I understand what you are saying jpq716.
We have two bill of rights here (one Federal and one Provincial) that help a lot in harnessing the 'dark' side. Discrimination on the basis of sexuality is very clearly condemned in both.
It would be very dificult for any extremist organization or government for that matter, to take hold of our sense of fairness for all.
We're not perfect yet but we're trying really hard. ;D

 
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: jpq716 on March 19, 2007, 03:40:09 PM
God bless Canada, John John, a land for which I have always had the most irrational, but deep-rooted, prejudice... :D :D :D

But you must be be on guard for Canada, John John. They said that it could not happen in Germany, and it did. And they said that it could not happen in America, but it is. And with that Dubya-clone as your trouble-making Prime Minister (how in the name of God did he ever get elected in the first place?), it may happen to Canada in the future. So don't take your freedom for granted, John John. You could lose it in a second. After all, Weimar Germany was the freest place in the world for gay people in the 1920s, and look what happened in the wink of an eye... :(
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Brokeback_1 on March 19, 2007, 05:50:10 PM
Canada is too diffuse to turn into Wiemar, too many power centres, federal control is much lighter up there. Besides she will always be contrary to the Americans.....
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: jpq716 on March 19, 2007, 06:02:02 PM
Then, with all due respect, brokeback_1, how did Harper become Prime Minister in the first place? A question that is of the greatest relevance to the subject of this thread, and I kid you not.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: cwby on March 19, 2007, 06:21:45 PM
Is society really as accepting as it claims? no
Is Jake gay/bi? don't know don't care  ::)
Is Heath? don't know don't care
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Brokeback_1 on March 19, 2007, 07:55:20 PM
Then, with all due respect, brokeback_1, how did Harper become Prime Minister in the first place? A question that is of the greatest relevance to the subject of this thread, and I kid you not.

Don't know jpq. maybe johnjohn does. I just meant that the PM of Canada has far less power then an American President, with far more 'independent action' available to the provinces then for the American states. A setup like that makes it much harder to do what you warn against. He may turn out to be a pleasant surprise, simply don't know. You know more about him then I do, what makes you so wary of him?
____________________________________________________________________________
 cwby, I don't recall anybody publicly wondering on this thread if Jake was bi or Heath was bi. Regardless, I'm glad you don't care. Nobody SHOULD care. But baffled as to why you brought it up.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: jpq716 on March 19, 2007, 08:37:28 PM
Maybe JohnJohn, being a Canadian (and possibly a French Canadian to boot), should weigh in on this. All that I know is that Canadian people very sensibly settled the whole gay rights matter in a parliamentary manner and that Harper has been trying to undo that settlement, literally from the day that he became Prime Minister of Canada. JohnJohn, is there a possibility that Harper became Prime Minister of Canada by means of electoral fraud? And where is his support in Canada? I thought that Canadians were so much wiser than we Amerikans... :(

Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Brokeback_1 on March 19, 2007, 08:59:19 PM
I can't judge a man on one issue, evenm if that issue is important to me. Least i try not to. Is he just blabbering the way politicians do, to defocus from other things?? canada isn't about to revoke those rights. maybe you worry too much and i worry too little........

yeah johnjohn is Quebecois. Native french-speaker. Very very funny too
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: graylockV on March 19, 2007, 09:27:21 PM
The Liberal Party was in power for a very long time and I think that, as is often the case in democracies, people just became tired of them.  All their foibles catch up with them and so the "bums" are thrown out. 

And replaced by a new set of "bums." 

And in the case of Harper, a real bummer!!!
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Brokeback_1 on March 19, 2007, 09:32:26 PM
He's really that bad, eh greylocke??

sorry to hear it....I like canada a lot.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: graylockV on March 19, 2007, 09:40:15 PM
Don't worry - they'll throw him out before long.  The Liberals just have to get their act together.

I love Canada, too.  Remember what they said when George Bush the Elder was President?  If you want a kinder, gentler America - move to Canada!!!
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: graylockV on March 19, 2007, 09:43:37 PM
One of the things I enjoy about Canadian politics is that the leaders of the political parties basically need to be fluent in both English and French if they aspire to national leadership.

Can you imagine requiring American politicians to be fluent in more than one language?  Watching c-span, I appears to me that many of them barely speak one language!!!
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: lowcountrygirl on March 19, 2007, 10:57:22 PM
____________________________________________________________________________
 cwby, I don't recall anybody publicly wondering on this thread if Jake was bi or Heath was bi. Regardless, I'm glad you don't care. Nobody SHOULD care. But baffled as to why you brought it up.

Well, we did, Brokeback. We discussed both questions with great fervor and lots of arguing!

Cwby probably checked out how the thread began, where a history of multi-thread arguments about Jake's sexuality was introduced as a possible example of a society that is less accepting than it claims.

Jess, that was a good point you made about that article and the possibility that they were better managers because they had to excel to overcome discrimination!

Jeanine
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Brokeback_1 on March 19, 2007, 11:02:46 PM
No, they are not bright.

And they are very narrow and closed minded.

BUT I  I think English is and should remain the great unifier, with no official second language in the US. There is a vast difference in the 2 situations. Quebec is a nation,  the oldest, most distinct and most firmly rooted nation on this continent. If Canada wishes to maintain its' unity the Kingdom HAS to be bilingual. [ and it is a kingdom, we marginalise that in the states]

 In America the Latins are immigrants, they should learn the language of the country they have fled to as what amounts to economic refugees. If they don't it poses questions for the future unity and social stability of this Republic. Every legal immigrant learns the English language: why should we all have to change to satisfy people who do not belong here in the first place, who circumvented the rules others followed? Legal immigrants spend years and much of their income to get here in respect of American laws. It is completely unfair to THEM as well as to English speaking people who were born here to change a basic in OUR society because of people who should not be here in the first place, people who have circumvented the laws and are among other things used as a supposedly cheap source of labour for jobs Americans don't want. When you take into account the medical and welfare and other benefits claimed by illegals that cheap source of labor costs about 30 bucks an hour, and it has collapsed the wage scale in numerous industries...It's something i feel strongly about, that.

they need to learn english. And WE need to stop being hypocrites and accept those here, and stop turning them into second class second rate HUMANS. And maybe we need to shut the Golden Door. To house them we will end by having to pave over and suburbanise entire states....
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Brokeback_1 on March 19, 2007, 11:12:32 PM
____________________________________________________________________________
 cwby, I don't recall anybody publicly wondering on this thread if Jake was bi or Heath was bi. Regardless, I'm glad you don't care. Nobody SHOULD care. But baffled as to why you brought it up.

Well, we did, Brokeback. We discussed both questions with great fervor and lots of arguing!

Cwby probably checked out how the thread began, where a history of multi-thread arguments about Jake's sexuality was introduced as a possible example of a society that is less accepting than it claims.

Jess, that was a good point you made about that article and the possibility that they were better managers because they had to excel to overcome discrimination!

Jeanine

Really? didn't know lowcountrygirl, I thought that stuff was sort of kept to Eyelashes. To tell the truth I'm surprised it got discussed here.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: lowcountrygirl on March 20, 2007, 12:52:01 AM
____________________________________________________________________________
 cwby, I don't recall anybody publicly wondering on this thread if Jake was bi or Heath was bi. Regardless, I'm glad you don't care. Nobody SHOULD care. But baffled as to why you brought it up.

Well, we did, Brokeback. We discussed both questions with great fervor and lots of arguing!

Cwby probably checked out how the thread began, where a history of multi-thread arguments about Jake's sexuality was introduced as a possible example of a society that is less accepting than it claims.

Jess, that was a good point you made about that article and the possibility that they were better managers because they had to excel to overcome discrimination!

Jeanine

Really? didn't know lowcountrygirl, I thought that stuff was sort of kept to Eyelashes. To tell the truth I'm surprised it got discussed here.

It's how the thread began.

And this thread started in the "start your own thread" section and was recently moved here.

Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Brokeback_1 on March 20, 2007, 01:12:53 AM
Really? That's pretty cool. I like it when somebody starts a thread and it doesn't languish until the archivers come to take the corpse. All that 'Is He Or Isn't He'  stuff sort of skeeves me out though: nobodies business but theirs.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: phrag3 on March 20, 2007, 06:49:20 AM
It was interesting to just read the dialogue about Canada and PM Harper. Most of the comments were correct. Canada does have a tendency to swing back and forth between Conservative and Liberal Governments. Although there has been a conservative swing in the last while (somewhat drawn in by our neighbours to the South:)) the Liberals lost the last election more because of their scandals, than the power of the Right.

And don't forget, it is a Minority Government, so the Conservatives have to be careful to mainain their power and not face a Confidence Motion. We just had our Budget yesterday, and it was decidedly, non-Conservative in nature, obviously in an effort to retain power, and it looks like they will as one of the other parties, the PQ, appears to support it.

You also have to realize that the reality of our parties is that they really aren't that different. They all tend to be Socially Centered. For example, universal health care is a constant, as are many other social policies. We are a "left leaning" country, even with a Conservative Government!

And, our PMs do not have any power individually. It is all within their Party. We don't elect the PM separately. They have to win in their own Riding, and it is only if their Party gets the most seats in Parliament, do they become PM.

That's why we don't have the absurdity of a Republican President with a Democratic Senate/House.

That's my intro to Canadian politics.

Dan
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: john john on March 20, 2007, 09:36:15 AM
Then, with all due respect, brokeback_1, how did Harper become Prime Minister in the first place? A question that is of the greatest relevance to the subject of this thread, and I kid you not.


The Conservative Party (Harper) was elected because the Liberals were caught up in a money scandal. The Consrvatives are now a the elm of a wobbly minority Gouvernment and will surely fall at the next elections.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Kelpersmek on March 20, 2007, 02:34:15 PM

In America the Latins are immigrants, they should learn the language of the country they have fled to as what amounts to economic refugees. If they don't it poses questions for the future unity and social stability of this Republic. Every legal immigrant learns the English language: why should we all have to change to satisfy people who do not belong here in the first place, who circumvented the rules others followed?

Oooh, thla ya gwan ta*






*Cherokee  ;)
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Brokeback_1 on March 20, 2007, 02:51:18 PM
and what does it mean?
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Kelpersmek on March 20, 2007, 03:28:44 PM
and what does it mean?

It translates as:
"Oooh, I don't know"

as a response to the quote.
Of course, very few people probably speak Cherokee now, despite it being a prominent language among people in America at one time.  But then some other people arrived, who didn't follow the rules that others did, and brought with them their own languages. 
Do you see where I am going with this parallel?
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Brokeback_1 on March 20, 2007, 04:41:41 PM
yep.
However i don't care.
There is very little immigration out of Europe today, when Europe sent millions here in times past, all of whom learned English. Why so little? because Europe remade itself and is a decent place to live!

Sorry, I see no reason why Americans HAVE to learn another language in their own country. Legal immigrants spent years of time following the rules to get here; they learn English. The bulk of population growth in the US is through ILLEGAL immigration, we are paving over entire regions, and this has to stop. I see no reason to fill up the states with people simply because others want to live here WHO DID NOT FOLLOW THE RULES. If there own countries are packed, that is their problem to solve, not ours.

Do you want America to become a jammed with people  like Holland?? No way! that country is full, mostly through being such a cool place that everybody who lives in countries which don't work wants to go there! There is no countryside left. China is overflowing with people, why should we become like that? Our birthrate is low, theirs is not, and i see NO reason to pack the US because others can't run decent countries. Let them fix up there own, and stay there.

The explosion in urban areas over the last 20 years, and the coming explosion of the next 20 will destroy frar too much land here.

Close the door. We can't take the earth into North America, without ruining what we have.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Kelpersmek on March 20, 2007, 05:35:52 PM
yep.
However i don't care.

So, it was fine for your forefathers to come to a land and impose a language of their own, but if Spanish speaking people want to come to that same land now, they shouldn't try and bring their language. 

And your response is "I don't care". 

With all due respect, I find that attitude pretty arrogant. 
Don't you find it suspicious that you've been born just right, in the best place on earth and speaking the right language, and everyone should fit in around you?


Quote
There is very little immigration out of Europe today,

None in fact.  It's called Emigration.  Immigrants are people coming INTO a country!


Quote
Sorry, I see no reason why Americans HAVE to learn another language in their own country.

No need to apologize to me and you don't have to learn Spanish either.  You are free to remain cut off from the large numbers of Spanish speakers if you choose not to learn Spanish.
You'll simply find it a disadvantage in some cases, just as those who only speak Spanish find their lack of English a hindrance.

Nobody is saying you have to learn Spanish.  However, you are demanding that people learn English.  Why should Latinos HAVE to learn another language when most of the people they socialize with speak Spanish?

Quote
The bulk of population growth in the US is through ILLEGAL immigration,

Here's a little challenge.  Get an illegal immigrant who risked life and limb getting into America, and then managed to secure a home and a job, and put him up against a spoiled brat who's so fat he can hardly waddle off his couch to buy the latest Playstation release.  See who does more for the economy.


Quote
we are paving over entire regions,

Where?  Previously you were suggesting whole states would need to turn into vast urban sprawls. I don't think you have taken any serious study into population density to support your claims here.  In the UK the BNP claimed that illegal immigration wouldl cause the government to build three new huge cities just to house the immigrants.  So far not one brick of these imaginary cities has been laid. 

Quote
Do you want America to become a jammed with people  like Holland?? No way! that country is full,

I've been to Amsterdam.  It's not 'full'. 
Once again, populations tend to congregate in cities rather than spread as an even distribution, thus leading to the perception that there is less land available than is actually the case.  Holland is not full. 


Quote
China is overflowing with people, why should we become like that? Our birthrate is low, theirs is not, and i see NO reason to pack the US because others can't run decent countries. Let them fix up there own, and stay there.

Slight digression.. but:
Have you looked at any of the technological advances China is churning out?  Have you been watching over the last 20 years as a massive rural country with a previously unsustainable population has transformed into an economic giant? 

Another small digression:
Are you aware that in your post extolling the virtues of everyone in America having to learn English, you made several spelling & grammar mistakes?

I'm just sayin' is all....
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: jpq716 on March 20, 2007, 05:56:10 PM
Brokeback_1, I have to smile at the naiveté of your solution to our immigration problems. You presume that the collective will is absent to apply the immigration laws and that, once these laws are applied, the problem will be solved. It won’t be. It can’t be. The fact of the matter is that the Amerikan ruling class is explicitly, but silently, inviting these migrants into the country precisely in order to destroy the middle class (which, after all, is no more than eighty years old in Amerika anyway and is thus not the eternal verity that we presumed it to be in the 1950s). And even if the Amerikan ruling-class tried to stop the immigration (which it most assuredly won’t), it wouldn’t be able to do so because the demographic pressure to enter Amerika is so great and because the illegal community already has a very well established support network here that would be make it quite difficult to locate illegals and to expel them. From a purely logistic point of view, the game has already been lost.

But the problem is even worse than that. People say that we need to fight the illegal immigration problem in order “to preserve our way of life.” Well, Brokeback_1, I have some sad news for you: “our way of life” began to disintegrate in the 1960s and is long gone now. And the questions have to be raised: is what has taken its place worth saving? And to what extent is it any better than that which seeks to replace it in turn? I see this very clearly in the realm of literature. I myself was trained in the Great Tradition of Anglo-American Literature in an Irish-Catholic academic ghetto (where such studies were still alive in the 1960s), and to this day, I respond profoundly to its depth, its complexity, its sophistication and its resonance. But by the 1980s the Great Tradition in Anglo-American Literature was as dead as a dinosaur, and yes, a part of me mourns its passing deeply.

But another part of me realizes that the Great Tradition needed to go “the way of all flesh.” Yes, it was deep, complex, sophisticated and resonant, but it also was dualistic, exclusive, oppressive and divisive as well. What support, for example, has the Great Tradition ever given the gay liberation movement? Almost none, since (with the exception of writers like Forster and Isherwood), the Great Tradition has been no friend of gay people, and the gay literature that began to spring up in the 1970s was erected consciously in opposition to the oppressive focus of the Great Tradition before it. Of course, as we all know (when we are really being honest with ourselves), the resulting tradition of gay literature (with a few exceptions) lacks the depth, the complexity, the sophistication and the resonance of the literature that it dethroned. But what of it? The Dante and Shakespeare of gay literature may yet appear in the 21st century, and even if they do not, then such a terminal failure is certainly no reason to have kept the Great Tradition of Anglo-American Literature alive on life support. Yes, I mourn deeply the passing of the Great Tradition, and I reject with distaste most of what has taken its place, but the judgment of history here was correct and, in any case, it was final.

And that is why I cannot get exercised over what is happening at the border now. The collective will to stop the invasion is missing, and even if it were present, I doubt whether it could succeed. What the modern “barbarian invasions” are destroying may be just as brittle, affected and essentially hypocritical as the Graeco-Roman culture of late antiquity, and who can tell what genius might rise out of these trespassing wetbacks in the centuries to come? Truth is the daughter of time, as the proverb says, and the final results on what is happening now at our borders are by no means in. And as D. H. Lawrence, one of the first to experience this collapse viscerally, once wrote, the only way out now of our current difficulties is the way through…
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Brokeback_1 on March 20, 2007, 08:02:27 PM
yep.
However i don't care.

So, it was fine for your forefathers to come to a land and impose a language of their own, but if Spanish speaking people want to come to that same land now, they shouldn't try and bring their language. 

And your response is "I don't care". 

With all due respect, I find that attitude pretty arrogant. 
Don't you find it suspicious that you've been born just right, in the best place on earth and speaking the right language, and everyone should fit in around you?


Quote
There is very little immigration out of Europe today,

None in fact.  It's called Emigration.  Immigrants are people coming INTO a country!


Quote
Sorry, I see no reason why Americans HAVE to learn another language in their own country.

No need to apologize to me and you don't have to learn Spanish either.  You are free to remain cut off from the large numbers of Spanish speakers if you choose not to learn Spanish.
You'll simply find it a disadvantage in some cases, just as those who only speak Spanish find their lack of English a hindrance.

Nobody is saying you have to learn Spanish.  However, you are demanding that people learn English.  Why should Latinos HAVE to learn another language when most of the people they socialize with speak Spanish?

Quote
The bulk of population growth in the US is through ILLEGAL immigration,

Here's a little challenge.  Get an illegal immigrant who risked life and limb getting into America, and then managed to secure a home and a job, and put him up against a spoiled brat who's so fat he can hardly waddle off his couch to buy the latest Playstation release.  See who does more for the economy.


Quote
we are paving over entire regions,

Where?  Previously you were suggesting whole states would need to turn into vast urban sprawls. I don't think you have taken any serious study into population density to support your claims here.  In the UK the BNP claimed that illegal immigration wouldl cause the government to build three new huge cities just to house the immigrants.  So far not one brick of these imaginary cities has been laid. 

Quote
Do you want America to become a jammed with people  like Holland?? No way! that country is full,

I've been to Amsterdam.  It's not 'full'. 
Once again, populations tend to congregate in cities rather than spread as an even distribution, thus leading to the perception that there is less land available than is actually the case.  Holland is not full. 


Quote
China is overflowing with people, why should we become like that? Our birthrate is low, theirs is not, and i see NO reason to pack the US because others can't run decent countries. Let them fix up there own, and stay there.

Slight digression.. but:
Have you looked at any of the technological advances China is churning out?  Have you been watching over the last 20 years as a massive rural country with a previously unsustainable population has transformed into an economic giant? 

Another small digression:
Are you aware that in your post extolling the virtues of everyone in America having to learn English, you made several spelling & grammar mistakes?

I'm just sayin' is all....

I find YOU very arrogant in discounting the efforts of LEGAL immigrants---who spend thousands of hard earned dollars, and wait years to come here legally.

These others are NOT HERE LEGALLY. Any other nation would simply deport them for that alone. If the situation was reversed in any latin nation there would be anti gringo riots.

We cannot continue to house every person who comes here illegally, forming what amounts to an underclass with HUGE social ramifications now and for the future.

This is an English speaking country. To state valuing this nations language is bad is arrogance of a high order. Try saying make Turkish the second language of Germany, Arabic the second language of France: they would at best laugh and at worse attack you.

If all one can do is whine and carry on that I do not type well....oh well, tough!  For you, not me. You're argument consists of one thing--they are here, so to make it easy we need to adapt to them.

No.

They need to adapt to the country they came to illegally, or else they should depart for home.

And once again we do not have the space or the social resources to house everyone who wants to come here. Look what happened to Holland, it's an overpopulated smear on the landscape. Look what is happening to the eastern seaboard of the US, Mass. connecticut, southern NY, the entire state of New Jersey. Look at the enormous growth talking place in Colorado and Wyoming, the entire picture of overdevelopement!! And this in a country which has a low birthrate!

Let them fix their OWN countries. They are not here legally and we should not take them any longer. If they want to create a state with a state, 're-assimilliate  the border southwest'  let them stay home. We are under NO obligation to house the earth because they have decided they want to be here.

All of which i have the right to say. And what surprises me is that YOU come from a country which I have spent a great deal of time in, one  which is the PERFECT environmental example of what I do not wish to see happen in the US. The UK is completely overpopulated, completely. Where do you intend to house all the newcomers, Loch Ness?

The state of Wyoming is as big as britain, with less then half a million people. If the people who live there want it to STAY WILD, stay RURAL, they have that right. They are under no obligation to house every illegal alien who crosses the border. They have to be put SOMEWHERE.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Melisande on March 20, 2007, 08:07:25 PM
Please be civil to each other. This topic is rather broad, but it is about how accepting society is of gay people, so please stick to that. And stop the personal stuff.

Thank you.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Brokeback_1 on March 20, 2007, 08:41:08 PM
It's not very accepting Meli.

Society, that is ----Gay is ok so long as one is in a 'gay ghetto' like Manhattan or the Keys or SF. It's ...tolerated in other places. Sometimes hugely tolerated and sometimes barely tolerated. But we all know that.

A great deal is lipservice. The older people are, the less tolerance for either gayness or change, it seems. The hope is the new generation, which simply does not care as a generation if someone is gay. IMO
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: planetgal471 on March 21, 2007, 11:23:11 AM
Really? That's pretty cool. I like it when somebody starts a thread and it doesn't languish until the archivers come to take the corpse. All that 'Is He Or Isn't He'  stuff sort of skeeves me out though: nobodies business but theirs.

I'm going to go out on a limd here and disagree somewhat. Anyone in the public spotlight is a role model. Maybe they didn't apply for the positition, but when you go to a casting call and want to make a name for yourself, it is part of the job description. And America is utterly lacking in big name hott A-list gay celebrities. So lacking, in fact, that we're scanning the available big name hott A-list celebs and declaring some of them gay so they can be our role models. Even straight America wants to see people who don't fit into their work environments as role models. We're all struggling through our daily lives, not with drugs and orgies, but with just fitting in on a daily basis. That's what we want to see in our role models. How to navigate the struggles of coming out, of fitting in, with grace and poise. So we find these successful people who don't have an aversion to being with another man, and who haven't settled down with a woman, and we imagine they are navigating these struggles.

Their personal lives aren't really our business, granted. But when sharing a little tidbit could enrich tens or hundreds of thousands of American lives, could start a revolution, it may just be a little bit of their responsibility to do so.

And I don't mean Jake, and I don't mean Heath, I mean whoever is closetted in Hollywood, because I'm sure it someone.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: bradINblue on March 21, 2007, 12:50:49 PM
It's not very accepting Meli.

Society, that is ----Gay is ok so long as one is in a 'gay ghetto' like Manhattan or the Keys or SF. It's ...tolerated in other places. Sometimes hugely tolerated and sometimes barely tolerated. But we all know that.

A great deal is lipservice. The older people are, the less tolerance for either gayness or change, it seems. The hope is the new generation, which simply does not care as a generation if someone is gay. IMO

Yep, Jack, and some older gays can't stand this cause they can't hang on to 'victim' status if these changes keep on track. IMO, there becomes a time when we must not dwell in the past. I think society is much for accepting from my perspective. I prefer to savor the now and look brightly to the future.

Brad

oh, and I do appreciate the fight those put up for what I can now savor

Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: lowcountrygirl on March 21, 2007, 02:17:34 PM
I agree that society is not very accepting. And there does seem to be some hope from the younger generation, thank goodness!

I also agree that those of us who are not straight long for revolution where acceptance is concerned and the idea of a gay role model is appealing. But I don't think were making them up.

I also think it's natural to be curious about the lives of our celebrities. There doesn't seem to be an objection when we presume them (whoever they are) to be straight and speculate about which opposite-sex celebrity we think they're dating. What seems not to be okay is to speculate about whether or not they are gay and which same-sex celebrities they might be dating.

And I think that is an example of the point we're making: that society is not very accepting at all.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: planetgal471 on March 21, 2007, 02:51:04 PM
I also think it's natural to be curious about the lives of our celebrities. There doesn't seem to be an objection when we presume them (whoever they are) to be straight and speculate about which opposite-sex celebrity we think they're dating. What seems not to be okay is to speculate about whether or not they are gay and which same-sex celebrities they might be dating.

And I think that is an example of the point we're making: that society is not very accepting at all.

Huh, you have a really great point, Jeanine! This is a sort of inequality, isn't it!? Why do people get more upset if you suggest Mr. X is dating Mr. Y than if you suggest Mr. X is dating Ms. Y? That implies a prejudice for sure.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: merrobot on March 21, 2007, 02:56:11 PM
Huh, you have a really great point, Jeanine! This is a sort of inequality, isn't it!? Why do people get more upset if you suggest Mr. X is dating Mr. Y than if you suggest Mr. X is dating Ms. Y? That implies a prejudice for sure.

It is inequality and prejudice.  At best it simply reinforces the notion that heterosexuality is "normal" and therefore everyone should be assumed to be straight unless they say otherwise.  Which is not an accepting attitude of diversity in sexual orientation.  At worse it implies that there is something wrong with being gay/lesbian/bi and therefore the outrage if someone is "falsely accused" of having this sexual orientation.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: lowcountrygirl on March 21, 2007, 03:01:18 PM
Huh, you have a really great point, Jeanine! This is a sort of inequality, isn't it!? Why do people get more upset if you suggest Mr. X is dating Mr. Y than if you suggest Mr. X is dating Ms. Y? That implies a prejudice for sure.

It is inequality and prejudice.  At best it simply reinforces the notion that heterosexuality is "normal" and therefore everyone should be assumed to be straight unless they say otherwise.  Which is not an accepting attitude of diversity in sexual orientation.  At worse it implies that there is something wrong with being gay/lesbian/bi and therefore the outrage if someone is "falsely accused" of having this sexual orientation.

That really has been my point all along and you've both said it so well!
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: planetgal471 on March 21, 2007, 03:02:06 PM
Yeah, I can see that. It's like "straight until proven guilty." We need to do more equal-opportunity being-nosey-celebrity-watchers. Well, I don't think we have the problem, but I mean "we" as in society.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: merrobot on March 21, 2007, 03:55:32 PM
There was a comedy series on Radio 4 years ago called the Mark Steel Solution.  One episode proposed that one way to deal with homophobia was to make "everyone gay for two years" (in a process similar to national service).  It's a daft idea but it raised some good points, one of which was that there would be very little tabloid shock value if every celebrity had to come out at some point.  And I wonder if 10% (or more!) of the film, TV and music industry came out all at once, if may be the newspapers and magazines and gossip sites might just go "What?  Another one?  Mmm, lets stick a picture of Britney Spears on the front page instead!"  Just a thought...
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Brokeback_1 on March 21, 2007, 05:48:10 PM
Really? That's pretty cool. I like it when somebody starts a thread and it doesn't languish until the archivers come to take the corpse. All that 'Is He Or Isn't He'  stuff sort of skeeves me out though: nobodies business but theirs.

I'm going to go out on a limd here and disagree somewhat. Anyone in the public spotlight is a role model. Maybe they didn't apply for the positition, but when you go to a casting call and want to make a name for yourself, it is part of the job description. And America is utterly lacking in big name hott A-list gay celebrities. So lacking, in fact, that we're scanning the available big name hott A-list celebs and declaring some of them gay so they can be our role models. Even straight America wants to see people who don't fit into their work environments as role models. We're all struggling through our daily lives, not with drugs and orgies, but with just fitting in on a daily basis. That's what we want to see in our role models. How to navigate the struggles of coming out, of fitting in, with grace and poise. So we find these successful people who don't have an aversion to being with another man, and who haven't settled down with a woman, and we imagine they are navigating these struggles.

Their personal lives aren't really our business, granted. But when sharing a little tidbit could enrich tens or hundreds of thousands of American lives, could start a revolution, it may just be a little bit of their responsibility to do so.

And I don't mean Jake, and I don't mean Heath, I mean whoever is closetted in Hollywood, because I'm sure it someone.
I agree with you to an extent, limited by a strong belief that NOBODY has a right or the right to run roughshod over an individual's life and out him or her for any reason whatsoever. It's up to the person involved, and no one else.
The only exception I can hesitantly and possibly see would be, say, a big star who lives gay sleeps gay denies gay vehemently, while marrying repeatedly and adopting childrento maintain a complete fiction; yes I do have someone in mind but that's not my right to say whom.
The recent spate of actors being forcibly outed, while not being hypocrites--living quietly, having partners, etc-- and just not saying one way or the other was and is very wrong, IMHO. They have a right to privacy away from the camera, straight OR gay: nobodies business but theirs.
They have a right to live the way they want. No, the public does not have the right to know every detail about someone, "just because".

Oh and I want to say this, too: I almost started a war on another thread by mocking the pairing of JG and Reese Witherspoon, as in who says so, has he said so, has she said so? No, some TABLOID said so! And for pointing out that some of the Reese lovers only wanted him to be with her because deep deep down they believed that if he was with HER, he could fall for the 50 year old person posting!

It's all vicarious BS!
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: lowcountrygirl on March 21, 2007, 06:32:00 PM
There was a comedy series on Radio 4 years ago called the Mark Steel Solution.  One episode proposed that one way to deal with homophobia was to make "everyone gay for two years" (in a process similar to national service).  It's a daft idea but it raised some good points, one of which was that there would be very little tabloid shock value if every celebrity had to come out at some point.  And I wonder if 10% (or more!) of the film, TV and music industry came out all at once, if may be the newspapers and magazines and gossip sites might just go "What?  Another one?  Mmm, lets stick a picture of Britney Spears on the front page instead!"  Just a thought...

Ooh ooh ooh (Horshack-style)!

What if all the currently popular celebrity "leads", the ones most likely to be picked for straight romantic roles, came out? Kind of like "To Tell the Truth" or "the Mole" where they all say they are the mystery person.

If they could maintain that through 2-3 years of movies and Hollywood knew some of them were lying but didn't know who, and thus, had to hire them solely on the basis of their acting skill (imagine that??), it could revolutionize Hollywood!

I love that idea!!

Somebody start calling the actors...

 ;D
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: planetgal471 on March 21, 2007, 10:04:12 PM
yes I do have someone in mind but that's not my right to say whom.

Well, actually, it is quite within you rights to speculate about this sort of thing. It falls short of slander because speculating on somene's sexual orientation, or who they're dating regardless of sexual orientation, is not maligning their character. It may not be something you choose to do, but it is most definitely your right to do so. Otherwise there couldn't be such a thing as tabloids.

Tabloids have a bad name, and that's fair because paps can be intrusive and sometimes almost violent, but I have to say it's to all fair because tabloids represent free press at it free-est, capitalism firmly keeping the powers that be in check. It may be a dark side to the proper working of uor society, but I think it does help our society function. Think about the rein the American public can keep on politicians just via the camera lens of a pap photographer and the dollars we spend on tabloids at newsstands. Anyway, I think this is off-topic now.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Brokeback_1 on March 21, 2007, 11:41:15 PM
answered in PM
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: michaelflanagansf on March 22, 2007, 04:18:35 PM
I find this thread somewhat perplexing.  'Society' is a very nebulous term - WHAT society are we talking about here?  Rural American society?  Hollywood society?  Cuban society?  And questioning if it is 'accepting as it claims' seems presumptuous to me.  Who ever said that all societies in all of their manifestations are accepting?

I don't think that people generally agree that worldwide 'society' is accepting of homosexuality.  Here are some examples:

http://www.godhatesfags.com

http://hrw.org/reports/2004/jamaica1104/

http://www.thegully.com/essays/gaymundo/040827_gay_lesbian_poland.html

http://direland.typepad.com/direland/2006/04/un_agency_confi.html

I would point out to you that same-sex marriage is only legal in five countries (Canada, Belgium, Spain, Netherlands and South Africa).  That leaves close to 200 countries where it is not legal.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Status_of_same-sex_marriage

Moving on to military service there are around 37 countries that allow openly gay people to serve.  There are 11 countries (including the U.S., Cuba, North Korea, Saudi Arabia and Syria - among others) that specifically do not allow military service by openly lesbian and gay people.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gays_in_the_military

The majority of religious belief systems (Islam, Roman Catholicism, Sikh, Conservative Judaism), which represent the vast majority of people in the world, believe that homosexual behavior is sinful:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_fixe.htm

There are still many countries where homosexual activity is against the law:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_laws_of_the_world

So, in summary, I have to say I'm confused by this thread.  Who ever said that society (whatever that is) is accepting?

BTW, I agree with what Brad said here earlier - thinking of oneself as a victim is useless and psychologically crippling.  What people think about me really has little or no effect on my day to day existence - and frankly, I don't really care what they think.  If they get up in my face that's a different matter, but that doesn't happen that much (thankfully).  Perhaps if I were trying to get into the military or get married I might feel differently, but that is not the case.  For me, life is pretty good.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Lance on March 22, 2007, 04:59:33 PM
''The majority of religious belief systems (Islam, Roman Catholicism, Sikh, Conservative Judaism), which represent the vast majority of people in the world, believe that homosexual behavior is sinful:''

The vast majority? How many Buddhists and Hindus are there?
And agnostics and atheists?
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: michaelflanagansf on March 22, 2007, 05:07:11 PM
''The majority of religious belief systems (Islam, Roman Catholicism, Sikh, Conservative Judaism), which represent the vast majority of people in the world, believe that homosexual behavior is sinful:''

The vast majority? How many Buddhists and Hindus are there?
And agnostics and atheists?

Okay - majority (54% between Christianity and Islam).

Here's a pie chart.  If you're counting agnostics and atheists, btw, you'd need to account for Marxists, who (if they are doctrinaire they believe homosexuality is a Bourgeoisie illness) and would fit in with the unaccepting.

http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Lance on March 22, 2007, 05:13:33 PM
I'm thinking agnostics who are scattered all over the world in ''Muslim'', ''Christian'', etc. countries. Would be very difficult to count them, I suspect.
Strictly speaking, Marxism, no matter how much faith in it is involved, is a political philosophy, not a religion. It comes down to individual opinion amongst them whether they adhere to all of its assumptions.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: michaelflanagansf on March 22, 2007, 05:30:35 PM
I'm thinking agnostics who are scattered all over the world in ''Muslim'', ''Christian'', etc. countries. Would be very difficult to count them, I suspect.
Strictly speaking, Marxism, no matter how much faith in it is involved, is a political philosophy, not a religion. It comes down to individual opinion amongst them whether they adhere to all of its assumptions.

Here's a bit more on Hinduism and homosexuality:

http://www.religionfacts.com/homosexuality/hinduism.htm

This is, of course, also hard to quantify as there is no central Hindu authority (no Archbishop of Canterbury, no Pope, etc.).  But we can also take the status of homosexuals in India as a cue (it's a crime):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_India

So that makes the positions of the worlds top three religions (Christianity, Islam and Hinduism) negative.

And here is more on some other non-Christian religions.

Buddhism (which is also not universally positive and is affected by cultural institutions):

http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_budd.htm

Scientology:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_scie.htm

Zoroastrianism:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_zor.htm

Baha'i:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_bah.htm

It is true that Marxism is a political philosophy - the reason I mention it is because a significant percentage of the Atheists in the world are Marxist (and therefore it affects their opinions).
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Dal on March 22, 2007, 05:34:23 PM
So I suppose the actuall number of people who reject us for religious reasons is Unknowable, 'tho not Ineffable.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Lance on March 22, 2007, 05:37:59 PM
and perhaps not f***able.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: michaelflanagansf on March 22, 2007, 05:39:45 PM
So I suppose the actuall number of people who reject us for religious reasons is Unknowable, 'tho not Ineffable.

But big.  Over 2, at least.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: michaelflanagansf on March 22, 2007, 05:54:27 PM
Here's a bit more on the status of men who have sex with men in India:

Sex between men is highly stigmatised in India and is not openly talked about, making it easy for people to underestimate how commonly it occurs. Studies have shown that sexual activity between men is relatively common in both urban and rural areas of India, although it is illegal. 24

http://www.avert.org/hiv-india.htm
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: fritzkep on March 22, 2007, 07:38:36 PM
This website discusses sex between men in India, and differentiates between male gendered men and female gendered men who are attracted to and have sex with other men. The author appears to be struggling against those who condemn male-male sex as a western import and idea.

http://simpleindex.blogspot.com/

There is a faint odor of grinding axes at this site, but the information he imparts seems to be accurate and is quite interesting.

Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: chiaros on March 23, 2007, 06:07:13 PM
It's not very accepting Meli.

Society, that is ----Gay is ok so long as one is in a 'gay ghetto' like Manhattan or the Keys or SF. It's ...tolerated in other places. Sometimes hugely tolerated and sometimes barely tolerated. But we all know that.

A great deal is lipservice. The older people are, the less tolerance for either gayness or change, it seems. The hope is the new generation, which simply does not care as a generation if someone is gay. IMO

Yep, Jack, and some older gays can't stand this cause they can't hang on to 'victim' status if these changes keep on track. IMO, there becomes a time when we must not dwell in the past. I think society is much for accepting from my perspective. I prefer to savor the now and look brightly to the future.

Brad

oh, and I do appreciate the fight those put up for what I can now savor



I think people here are forgetting about racial discrimination within the 'Gay Community' (Whatever that is).  My two cents.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: LSky94 on March 24, 2007, 02:55:58 AM
Hope this is the right place to put this, if it belongs in "General Discussion", the mods can move it. 

Here's an opinion from the LA Times by Larry Kramer called "Why Do Straights Hate Gays?"  Sounds rather harsh, but one really can't argue with the facts either.  Thought you guys might find it intellectually stimulating.   I hope the link stays up, I didn't have to register for it but it is worth doing so, if need be. 

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-oe-kramer20mar20,0,1705133.story?coll=la-opinion-rightrail
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: merrobot on March 24, 2007, 07:27:04 AM
Thanks for that link - it was indeed very interesting and it does fit in with what were are discussing here.  I agree that a lot of what he is saying is true.  As someone who has a foot in both camps, as it were, I would also agree that maybe the way forward with the issue of LGBT rights is to encourage straight folks to come on board with lobbying for these rights as much as possible.  However, I get the impression that while there are a reasonable number of "gay-friendly" folk out there, many just don't see LGBT rights as a priority when it comes to voting or campaigning.

I was also concerned with his comment that "Gays do not realize that the more we become visible, the more we come out of the closet, the more we are hated."  I think some people could interpret this as a recommendation to remain closeted - and I think long term that probably would make the situation worse rather than keeping the status quo.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: john john on March 24, 2007, 08:08:27 AM
Thanks for that link - it was indeed very interesting and it does fit in with what were are discussing here.  I agree that a lot of what he is saying is true.  As someone who has a foot in both camps, as it were, I would also agree that maybe the way forward with the issue of LGBT rights is to encourage straight folks to come on board with lobbying for these rights as much as possible.  However, I get the impression that while there are a reasonable number of "gay-friendly" folk out there, many just don't see LGBT rights as a priority when it comes to voting or campaigning.

I was also concerned with his comment that "Gays do not realize that the more we become visible, the more we come out of the closet, the more we are hated."  I think some people could interpret this as a recommendation to remain closeted - and I think long term that probably would make the situation worse rather than keeping the status quo.

This reminds me of a conversation I had with a straight woman friend. She was saying that there were so many more gay men than before and was wondering why. I was a bit surprised by her naiveté and told her jokingly that gays can now multiply, that women are no longer needed. She laughed half-heartedly...
I then simply told her that gays come out more these days and that what she sees as more gays is only the tip of the iceberg.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: lowcountrygirl on March 24, 2007, 10:17:05 AM
I was also concerned with his comment that "Gays do not realize that the more we become visible, the more we come out of the closet, the more we are hated." I think some people could interpret this as a recommendation to remain closeted - and I think long term that probably would make the situation worse rather than keeping the status quo.

I'm not sure I agree with his statement that visibility increases hatred, and long-term it probably is the best choice to become more visible.

But individually, it can be such a risk that I understand the caution.


Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: jim ... on March 24, 2007, 10:38:59 AM
I'm wondering if the "type" of visibility makes a difference .... ie: how we come out
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: zth on March 24, 2007, 01:54:11 PM
I was also concerned with his comment that "Gays do not realize that the more we become visible, the more we come out of the closet, the more we are hated." I think some people could interpret this as a recommendation to remain closeted - and I think long term that probably would make the situation worse rather than keeping the status quo.

I would personally correct this statement to :
 "Gays do not realize that the more we become visible, the more we come out of the closet, the less  we are hated."

Homosexuals have to realize that they will not achieve much without fighting for it, or by expecting others to fight for them.
Gay-friendly straights are not enough for this. A FEW famous homosexuals, are not enough either! They have to help themselves.
I too understand the risks, but they should take those risks in order to make steps forward.

Plus, they first have to accept their own nature, and understand that there is nothing wrong with them.

Closeted homosexuals! THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING WRONG WITH YOU!
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: LSky94 on March 24, 2007, 02:19:05 PM
I don't think Kramer's comment "Gays do not realize that the more we become visible, the more we come out of the closet, the more we are hated,"  is intended to mean gays shouldn't come out.  Knowing Kramer's history, the cows would probably fly over the moon before he suggests we go quietly back into the closet, lol.  I took his comment to mean that as we come out and become more visible, we are bound to run into more resistance, it is the nature of social change.  I think he also is just saying we should not mistake increased visibility for increased rights, nor should we mistake increased visibility for less hate toward us. 

How does one measure acceptance, or "less" hate toward gay people? is the proof in our increased visibility in the media, for example? and when does that "acceptance" translate into real acceptance as evidenced by equal rights?  All good questions for us to ponder I think.   
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: merrobot on March 24, 2007, 04:11:01 PM
This reminds me of a conversation I had with a straight woman friend. She was saying that there were so many more gay men than before and was wondering why. I was a bit surprised by her naiveté and told her jokingly that gays can now multiply, that women are no longer needed. She laughed half-heartedly...
I then simply told her that gays come out more these days and that what she sees as more gays is only the tip of the iceberg.

Yeah, it's probably the same phenomena as exists around autism spectrum disorders, it is probably not the case that there are more children being born with the condition, it is that there is an increase in diagnosis and a change in diagnostic criteria that gives the illusion of more cases.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: merrobot on March 24, 2007, 04:32:43 PM
Homosexuals have to realize that they will not achieve much without fighting for it, or by expecting others to fight for them.
Gay-friendly straights are not enough for this. A FEW famous homosexuals, are not enough either! They have to help themselves.
I too understand the risks, but they should take those risks in order to make steps forward.

Plus, they first have to accept their own nature, and understand that there is nothing wrong with them.

I am not saying that the onus is not on LGBT folks to fight their own battles, I just think it would be easier if straight people came on board too  :)  In 1983 Peter Tachell (a founding member of OutRage!) stood as MP for a 'safe' (i.e. guaranteed to win) seat in a Labour constituency and lost it because he's openly gay.  The majority of the electorate (i.e. straight people) did not want a gay man representing them in Parliament so I would guess that the way forward for gay people in the UK is to have their straight counterparts voting for gay-friendly politicians.  I'm concerned that if you left the issue of gay rights solely to the LGBT community to push forward, their voice would struggle to be heard.  That being said, it is a testament to those that have been campaigning that in the past 10 years they have secured an equal age of consent, abolition of Section 28 and we now have Civil Partnerships that allow all the entitlements of a legal marriage.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: LSky94 on March 24, 2007, 04:53:49 PM
Homosexuals have to realize that they will not achieve much without fighting for it, or by expecting others to fight for them.
Gay-friendly straights are not enough for this. A FEW famous homosexuals, are not enough either! They have to help themselves.
I too understand the risks, but they should take those risks in order to make steps forward.

I'm concerned that if you left the issue of gay rights solely to the LGBT community to push forward, their voice would struggle to be heard.  That being said, it is a testament to those that have been campaigning that in the past 10 years they have secured an equal age of consent, abolition of Section 28 and we now have Civil Partnerships that allow all the entitlements of a legal marriage.

Truth in both points.  One the one hand, yes Gay people have to help themselves first.  But I don't think the Gay voice alone is enough.  As long as straight people continue to see Gay rights as something that doesn't effect them, they can continue the status quo.  The biggest thing Gay people can do, possibly, to help themselves is to be more honest and open about who they are.   This will have the effect on their straight families and friends of making them face the reality of Gay life in their midst.   The issue becomes personalized when you know of someone who is GLBT, I think.  If it is a family member or a friend you love, the issues that they face then become your issues. 

In many ways, we Gay people, are a hidden minority, and some of us use this as a way of not facing up to the issues of the day.  By contrast, racial minorities cannot hide their skin color, there is no closet for your race.  I think this is why more racial minorities are willing to take a stand on the issues that impact them, whereas with Gay people, you will find many who want the benefits, whatever those are,  of the struggles without participating in the actual struggle itself.   Some of these have the attitude that "this doesn't really concern me" and want nothing to do with anything that makes them take a stand, but they won't hesitate to go to a street dance during Pride festivals, or make use of Gay chat rooms like Gay.com, or go to a Gay bar etc etc.  How did those events or things come about?  By whose efforts?  Some don't seem to think people had to fight for whatever it is we do have now.  Anyway, just my thoughts.   
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: lowcountrygirl on March 24, 2007, 05:53:24 PM
The biggest thing Gay people can do, possibly, to help themselves is to be more honest and open about who they are.   This will have the effect on their straight families and friends of making them face the reality of Gay life in their midst.   The issue becomes personalized when you know of someone who is GLBT, I think.  If it is a family member or a friend you love, the issues that they face then become your issues. 

I completely agree with you if this happens on a grand scale!

But each individual gay person has to come out alone. I am gay and out in a lot of ways, but fairly newly so and I can still relate to the fear of rejection closeted people feel.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: LSky94 on March 24, 2007, 06:15:15 PM
I completely agree with you if this happens on a grand scale!

But each individual gay person has to come out alone. I am gay and out in a lot of ways, but fairly newly so and I can still relate to the fear of rejection closeted people feel.

Yes, that is the tragedy of it.  I feel for those, I have been there, what we do about it I don't know. Community building and creating safe environments where people can take their first steps, I guess, is one good start.   What I don't like are those of us Gay people who actually seem to, or do, talk against the so-called gay rights struggle, constantly vote for candidates who work against us (not that there are so many to choose from), and yet want to show up at the Pride festivals looking for a lay.   Anyway, I have to be away for a few.  This is a good thread that I will have to keep up with from now on.   
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: lowcountrygirl on March 24, 2007, 06:51:04 PM
I completely agree with you if this happens on a grand scale!

But each individual gay person has to come out alone. I am gay and out in a lot of ways, but fairly newly so and I can still relate to the fear of rejection closeted people feel.

Yes, that is the tragedy of it.  I feel for those, I have been there, what we do about it I don't know. Community building and creating safe environments where people can take their first steps, I guess, is one good start. 

That's a good idea!
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: merrobot on March 25, 2007, 04:38:53 AM
Yes, that is the tragedy of it.  I feel for those, I have been there, what we do about it I don't know. Community building and creating safe environments where people can take their first steps, I guess, is one good start.   What I don't like are those of us Gay people who actually seem to, or do, talk against the so-called gay rights struggle, constantly vote for candidates who work against us (not that there are so many to choose from), and yet want to show up at the Pride festivals looking for a lay.

I think you are right that building a sense of community is important and I would add that it needs to go further than the bar scene and a Pride festival once a year.  I was told about this project by someone who has visted Africa several times and looking at the website they offer a really comprehensive range of services including outreach.  I would love to see a project like this in every major city in the world: http://www.triangle.org.za/index.php?pageno=1.  You never know, may be one day we'll get there  :)
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Kelpersmek on March 25, 2007, 05:29:20 PM
I think you are right that building a sense of community is important and I would add that it needs to go further than the bar scene and a Pride festival once a year. 

I agree but I'd approach this carefully, and I think the Triangle Project have got it right in their Mission Statement.

Quote
Triangle Project Vision:
The development of a non-discriminatory society, where organisations such as Triangle Project are a choice and not a necessity.

When I read the article here
 (http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-oe-kramer20mar20,0,1705133.story?coll=la-opinion-rightrail) I was immediately put on the defensive. 

Here's why:
Quote
DEAR STRAIGHT PEOPLE,

Why do you hate gay people so much?

Gays are hated. Prove me wrong. Your top general just called us immoral.

The problem for me as a straight man, is that I am not part of a military unit.  I don't have a top general.  If I DO have a top general in any sense, he's certainly not an American.

Quote
heterosexuals treat gays so brutally year after year after year, as your people take away

My people?? 
My people are my friends, my family, my social groups.  None of them are homophobic in my presence, and in general "my people" treat bigots with the disdain and social censure that they warrant.  Sometimes "my people" call each other or other people on their views, and we learn to be a little more broad minded.  Sometimes we learn that our prejudices are baseless, and sometimes we re-enforce them as justified.

Now, building a sense of community for LGBT youths who are taking their first steps is important, I can see that.  What I am worried about is this sort of reasoning:
Quote
Our own country's democratic process declares us to be unequal. Which means, in a democracy, that our enemy is you

While I can appreciate to a limited extent that a 72 year old man is going to have a lot of anger and bitterness, I don't think a siege mentality is helpful.  Society in the West, which is a broad enough arena for me to concern myself with just now, needs to change.  Rather than build LGBT communities though, I think that the more progressive goal is LGBT support within a society that is truly accepting.  A community within a community can end up making things much worse. 

It is not making society more accepting, but rather a new form of division to replace or supplement the old. 
If the LGBT community forms up and builds walls to keep straight-but-not-homophobic individuals at bay, it doesn't really benefit society.  The article referred to a push for equality.  I want that too, but it won't come overnight.

Look at Feminism.  Why is a movement that is about equality of gender, called Feminism?  Why the female name?  The answer, as I understand it, is that the political landscape would have laughed at the ridiculous notion that women could be equal to men.  "Equalists" would never have made any progress.  It was Feminism because it promoted the rights of women.  In time those rights have begun to creep towards equality, and now we can talk about and strive for gender equality without a public backlash.

Race relations follow a similar pattern.  Countries which have a small nucleus of a different ethnicity which sees themselves in opposition to the surrounding country make for bad neighbors, on both sides.  Race needs to be tackles as a process of integration and breaking down barriers.  The UK looks back today on the abolition of slavery 200 years ago, and the impact of that social change.  It is still affecting us today.  Society moves very slowly. 

So, for me, the first steps are baby steps, and it's my people who have to initiate some of them.  When people use offensive language, jokes, stereotypes, we have to call them on it.  Gradually people have to learn that the mindset of homophobia is a backwards and foolish thing.  One election at a time we have to vote for people who will legislate increasingly equal policies, and shun bigots, and make sure they *know* why they lost our vote.  One letter at a time, we have to make our views known. 

In the meantime, people will die, slurs will be spoken, and hate will smolder. 

Again, I'm referring back to what the Triangle Project have in their Mission Statement:
Quote
Triangle Project Mission:
To contribute towards eradicating discrimination against and within the LGBT community, and to provide defined services to the LGBT community until they are no longer required.

LGBT people have to change and help other people change too.  It'd be great if you could just come out and expect everyone to accept you for who you are, but unlike that earlier poster Osprey, I do not believe that people treat you how you want to be treated.  Some people are through and through bigots, and others are ignorant.  The ignorant ones can change, and you can help them.  Even though I try to weed out discrimination in myself, I could use some help from other people too. 

It's probably easier for me to preach patience as a straight guy, and I accept that a lot of people will probably see me as unqualified to speak on this.  That's their choice.  Looking at how we handle change as a "society" though, my opinion is that we need to change from the voters up, not the politicians down. 
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: MonteCristo on March 25, 2007, 05:50:31 PM
Kelpersmek.  I really liked your balanced post.   Thanks.

Monte
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: lowcountrygirl on March 25, 2007, 07:23:30 PM
Kelpersmek.  I really liked your balanced post. 

Me, too! :)
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: lowcountrygirl on March 25, 2007, 07:27:14 PM
I think you are right that building a sense of community is important and I would add that it needs to go further than the bar scene and a Pride festival once a year.  I was told about this project by someone who has visted Africa several times and looking at the website they offer a really comprehensive range of services including outreach.  I would love to see a project like this in every major city in the world: http://www.triangle.org.za/index.php?pageno=1.  You never know, may be one day we'll get there  :)

Cool project/organization/website!
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: michaelflanagansf on March 28, 2007, 03:01:09 PM
Here's an article about a large 'society' that does not claim to be accepting:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2007/03/28/international/i134051D47.DTL
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: sugarcheryl on March 28, 2007, 06:06:40 PM
I dont think I have been in this particular thread before....and Im just going to chime in something real quick that may or may not be part of this thread. This past weekend I went to a concert of a friend of mine. They sing fairly hard rock.....not a lot of cussing or anything....but they do draw a rather "out there crowd" Anyways.....I was standing in the parking lot with my boyfriend and the band members and they were talking about "getting" with these 2 girls. I hear one of them say that they are lesbians....and that he would have no chance at getting with them...."well it would be fun to watch"....:P Whatever....I just rolled my eyes and didnt pay much attention. However the 2 girls in question showed up....and while I dont mind lesbians at all....I was shockingly uncomfortable with them kissing each other in front of me. They were honestly doing nothing more then what I would do with my man. Holding each other...holding hands....kisses on the cheek or neck. You know....not full out grouping each other....but just being affectionate. I was somewhat dissappointed in myself for feeling the shame that I did. I could not even look in their general direction let alone look directly at them. I cant even imagine the horror I would of felt if it had been 2 men. And I dont mind gay people at all....to each his own. Was in a somewhat significant relationship with a woman when I was in my early 20s. Im sorry to be so honest, but I really think I would of been more uncomfortable if it had been 2 men. I dont know why....but I would of. Probably because of the stigma that carries with gay men. I dunno. All I know is I was really really uncomfortable and felt really out of my element. Soooo.....is society really that accepting? I just dont know. I thought I was....I always thought I was....til now....til it was "thrown" in my face. Like I said I am rather dissappointed in myself, but I cant help the way that I feel. But I am not a hater....not at all. Just thought I would share my personal experience.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: lowcountrygirl on March 28, 2007, 06:27:19 PM
...However the 2 girls in question showed up....and while I dont mind lesbians at all....I was shockingly uncomfortable with them kissing each other in front of me. They were honestly doing nothing more then what I would do with my man. Holding each other...holding hands....kisses on the cheek or neck. You know....not full out grouping each other....but just being affectionate. I was somewhat dissappointed in myself for feeling the shame that I did. I could not even look in their general direction let alone look directly at them. I cant even imagine the horror I would of felt if it had been 2 men. And I dont mind gay people at all....to each his own. Was in a somewhat significant relationship with a woman when I was in my early 20s. Im sorry to be so honest, but I really think I would of been more uncomfortable if it had been 2 men. I dont know why....but I would of. Probably because of the stigma that carries with gay men. I dunno. All I know is I was really really uncomfortable and felt really out of my element. Soooo.....is society really that accepting? I just dont know. I thought I was....I always thought I was....til now....til it was "thrown" in my face. Like I said I am rather dissappointed in myself, but I cant help the way that I feel. But I am not a hater....not at all. Just thought I would share my personal experience.

Hi, Sugarcheryl!

In my own experience, before I came out to myself, I was uncomfortable seeing both male and female couples be affectionate with each other. I think I wasn't ready yet to know that about myself and some part of me used discomfort as a sort of protective device.

So I was wondering, since you had a relationship with a woman before, if there is anything unresolved there that might have contributed to your being uncomfortable.

Jeanine
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: bradINblue on March 28, 2007, 09:40:27 PM
Sugarcheryl, I don't think your being uncomfortable is homophobia or non-acceptance. You know intimacy occurs between same-sex couples, but to actually see it for the first time is probably a bit of a shock. As a young boy growing up, I lived in a county in rural eastern Oregon that had no black residents. On my first trip to a 'big'city', I saw a black man walking down the street holding hands with a white woman. They were obviously vey happy and attentive to each other. I wasn't disgusted. I wasn't put out. I was shocked.

IMO, a small minority will view the black guy/white gal with hate and disdain or think she (he) is hell-bound. Most other ignoramous' would think the same about same-sex couples displaying affection. For them, the chance for acceptance is probably nil to zero. For the rest of straight/unsure society, seeing same sex couples involved in non-groping, non-sexual type displays of affection....it's ok they are shocked. It takes the 'sex' component out of these 'displays' and incorporates human emotion (wow, they love each other).

You were/are pretty hard on yourself. Don't be. What you saw, share with others in a positive way. Thanks for your post.

Brad
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: michaelflanagansf on March 28, 2007, 10:38:52 PM
I agree with Brad.  Discomfort isn't homophobia (or isn't always, at least) - often it's just surprise or unfamiliarity.  If you were homophobic you wouldn't be here.  Don't beat yourself up.

Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: zth on March 29, 2007, 06:10:57 AM
I agree with Brad.  Discomfort isn't homophobia (or isn't always, at least) - often it's just surprise or unfamiliarity.  If you were homophobic you wouldn't be here.  Don't beat yourself up.

I agree that discomfort is not homophobia,
but I believe that it comes from homophobia, and it can lead to homophobia.

So when you grow up in a homophobic society, you hardly ever see gays in the streets, holding each other's hand,
or kissing. And that's because they are hiding, because society is homophobic and hates them etc etc.
So when you see that once, you are shocked, because you are not used to this.
So this is how the shock comes from homophobia. (Not your homophobia, but society's).

Now the thing is that this shock can either stop there, or continue the cycle of the already existing homophobia.
What I am saying is, that if we are shocked, and don't want to see gays being intimate on the streets,
and we show our discomfort, then gays will continue to hide. Imagine how uncomfortable you would feel
if everybody was looking at you shocked, whenever you kissed your boyfriend.

What I am suggesting is the following: Since you have no problem with gays, and since you realize
that your reaction should not be like that at the sight of gays kissing, then you should do something to change that.
What you need IMO, is much much exposure to gays kissing/holding/whatever. You can "force" yourself
and go to gay bars, and have a drink there, and go again and again until you get used to this,
until you react to this normally, just like you react with straights.

I personally did this to myself, when I wanted to check if I would react differently at the sight of real gays in front of
me, instead of cinema/TV. It turned out that I had no discomfort at all (actually I Loved it). But in case I found out the opposite,
I was determined to go again and again, until I cured myself.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: bradINblue on March 29, 2007, 11:16:47 AM
zth, I understand what you are getting at, but if sugarcheryl were to visit most gay bars, at least near where I live, she would probably be repulsed. Porno on video screens, nude dancers, scary drag queens with attitude, groping in dark corners, botoxed older men with twenty-something year old twinks hanging on them for drinks and more. IMO, very little that would cure any sensible, understanding straight person of their apprehension with gay men. Perhaps a straight bar that is gay-friendly?

Brad
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: sugarcheryl on March 29, 2007, 02:23:24 PM
Im not sure that I have any unresolved feelings about my girlfriend. To tell you the truth....that relatiionship was at a real low point in my life. I had just had my first baby....the father of my daughter didnt want to have anything to do with us...blah blah blah. My girlfriend and I werent even really "friends" We got to talking one day....(I actually worked for her boyfriend)....about her "giving" me to her boyfriend as a birthday present. lol! Well that didnt happen....I dont know how it happened....but one conversation lead to another and I ended up in the shower with this girl....lol! I thought....what the hell!?....shes very very beautiful....tall, thin....long red hair....why not?! So we started "seeing" each other. I could sleep with her boyfriend if I wanted.....but for the most part it was just me and her. However as the relationship progressed, she became more and more needy and smothered me so much that I couldnt breathe. I was not inlove with her boyfriend and I still loved men....so it was hard for me to be "faithful" to them. I didnt want to sleep with her boyfriend....I liked him and all....but he didnt turn me on and I actually started to regress (if that is the correct word) We started to fight more and more and finally I just couldnt take it. I loved her dearly and told her so.....told her that I would of loved to "marry" her.....but that I am not lesbian and still want to have a significant relationship with a man. I know that sounds crazy....but it worked for her...but did not work for me. She did not want to share me with anyone but herself and her boyfriend....for me to have one was not going to happen. We broke up very very bitter. Many many years have passed since then. THEN I meet another girl in my office....work with her for a really long time....go on a couple vacations....have small talk....come to find out that her and her husband are swingers....tell her about what I have done in my past....which in comparison to her life was not very impressive lol! We start to get really really close. I start to have "feelings" for her and her for me. Once again though.....the smothering and the pressure mounts and I start to regress. I guess I dont like to be pressured. The pressure was just too much and to tell you the truth both her and her husband started to scare me. Like I was their possesion. I couldnt stand it! She would wait for me after work or stand there at my desk hoping that I would invite her over....I could smell it....feel it. It scared me. I backed off ALOT!!!! Went on one more vacation with them and would sorta hide from them or pretend to be asleep so they wouldnt want to have sex with me. I dunno....I know this all sounds sordid. But Im a good girl and was I guess experimenting alot. I DO think that I am BI Sexual.....I LOVE women!!!! But I am not a lesbian. I LOVE men too lol!

You know I really think that this all has to do with my childhood....something that I have carried with me throughout it. I have always been a sexual person....even at a very young age....I started masturbating when I was in grammar school. I am backwards in alot of what I am saying. I was a virgin til 14......but the pressure to have sex was very strong in school. But I wasnt going to have anything to do with that. I had been sexual...yet when it came to actual sex or even looking at a penis....I would run. Until high school and that all changed. My parents really never talked to me about anything. It was very taboo I guess. I dunno. I did have feelings for other girls in school...never really made it known, just felt it....but still loved boys more. I will say though that in thinking back....I have always felt strange or uncomfortable around things that are "out of the norm".....girls that were pregnant in my school made me uncomfortable and I would stare at them....interracial couples....and of course gays and lesbians. Never a hater or anything.....just like I said uncomfortable.

I was watching this show the other day....about gays and lesbians.....a lesbian couple were parting ways at the airport and all they did was hug and kiss goodbye....no tongues or groping or anything like that....and as they were doing this some "jackass" lady walked by and said, "get a room girls" I was soooo hurt and mortified for these poor girls that they could not even show the smallest of affection for each other without hearing something like that. To tell you the truth they could of just been sisters for all this dumb ass woman knew saying goodbye to each other. It was really quite innocent.....so I guess to answer the question of is society really as accepting as it claims?....NO! I have proved it, whether or not I like it....I was uncomfortable....as much as I hate to admit it, I was. I would never voice myself to any gays or lesbians, because like I said before I care not what they do. They have all the rights to do so. Just was surprised at myself like I said and somewhat dissappointed that I would feel that at all after the things that I have done in my life.

Sorry for the rambling and I hope this made sense.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: zth on March 29, 2007, 03:17:47 PM
zth, I understand what you are getting at, but if sugarcheryl were to visit most gay bars, at least near where I live, she would probably be repulsed. Porno on video screens, nude dancers, scary drag queens with attitude, groping in dark corners, botoxed older men with twenty-something year old twinks hanging on them for drinks and more. IMO, very little that would cure any sensible, understanding straight person of their apprehension with gay men. Perhaps a straight bar that is gay-friendly?

Brad

Well, yeah, of course I understand this. In this case, a gay-friendly bar would be much better..
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: LSky94 on March 29, 2007, 04:58:46 PM
Sugarcheryl,

After reading your posts, especially the first one on being "uncomfortable" around the same sex couple who kissed in front of you,  I wondered how the two tent scenes in BBM made you feel?  Did you feel "uncomfortable" then or was it different because it was an acted scene in a film? I am just curious how you reconcile the film to real life, since it seems you have a love for the film (or is that just a love for the artistic merits of BBM and not the content), yet similar "real-life" situations make you uncomfortable. 
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: sugarcheryl on March 29, 2007, 05:13:34 PM
Good question.....I will be honest here and tell you that the first few times I watched BBM I sorta look away....and somewhat do now....but it has nothing to do with male to male...shoot it could be male to female, female to female or 2 animals going at it. I still turn away......I get flushed and turn down my eyes....even at the reunion scene with the boys kissing....I turn a side my head. Just makes me uncomfortable. I dont know why....its on tv for GODs sake. Im just wondering (my psycho analyzing myself) if it has anything to do with my home life. My parents NEVER were affectionate in front of us...never played or kidded around....they were not affectionate at all with me or my brother. Not that they didnt love us.....but definitly as we grew out of our cute little baby-ness....the tenderness and the affection stopped. I am wondering if that has anything to do with it. I dont think I turn away at straight couples kissing....not that I sit there and stare....but no uncomfortable feelings there. I dunno....doesnt really make any sense to me. Just was thinking that maybe my upbringing had something to do with it. It would seem that it is only the "real-life" male to male or female to female affections that make me uncomfortable and yet everything on tv (love scene wise) makes me uncomfortable. Make any sense? LOL! But I get over it for the LOVE of my movie. Gosh....I lpve everything about the movie (well minus the Cassie scenes....seem to have a real "hate" for her)....more then anything the acting. How Jake and Heath emerged themselves into Jack and Ennis and became Jack and Ennis. Superb acting....superb!
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: LSky94 on March 29, 2007, 05:46:22 PM
Thanks for answering the question, sugarcheryl, and the honesty.   I think maybe your reaction does probably have a lot to do with your childhood, and anything that is out of the "ordinary" is probably still difficult for your mind to process due to the conditioning, even though you "know" intellectually that you do not hate the ppl involved.   Your relative ease with seeing male-female interaction, despite the lack of affection between your parents,  is probably because it is EVERYwhere we look, on the street, on tv, in film, in books, in plays, etc etc.  Anyway, now that we have played Psychologist, I again want to say thanks for your honest answers and willingness to share with us your thoughts.     
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Brokeback_1 on March 31, 2007, 08:03:43 AM
I get neurotic/nervous at seeing 2 men kissing on the street. Not that you see it here; mostly back in NY.
I get neurotic at guys holding hands in public.
Am I completely at ease with gay men? yeah.
Am I offended at it? nope [ well, the whole bar scene can close down so far as I'm concerned but that's a preference, have no use for it]

Am I a 'straight male'? nope.

Just neurotic
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: MonteCristo on March 31, 2007, 09:19:08 AM
Sugarcheryl, interesting that you mentioned the television show where lesbians were kissing goodbye at the airport and a passerby told them to "get a room".  Airports are one of the few places where I feel discrimination and don't like it a bit.  First off, in general my partner and I keep our hands off each other in public.  We know people can be offended/uncomfortable/embarrassed by homo or hetero kissy-huggy stuff.  And homo would probably be more disturbing to most folks.  I'm fine with that, don't care to watch people smooching and groping either.   However, if one of us has had to be away from home for awhile its like Jack says: "Sometimes I miss you so much I can't stand it".  So when we meet at the airport I just want to grab/hold/kiss him and instead we do some lame-ass handshake and perhaps a polite hug---if we're feeling really adventurous.  Hetero couples all around us are running slo-mo through fields of daisies, swinging each other in the air and kissing till they pass out unconscious.  Its not fair I tell you. ;)

Monte
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: maidenofthesea on March 31, 2007, 06:03:49 PM
My girlfriend and I (and we are interracial to boot) hold hands everywhere and kiss goodbye at airports, shopping malls, the street, whatever. I have to be honest, I don't even give it a second thought other than the satisfaction I get from watching people disgusted and yet not look away.

I feel comfortable enough to do it and so does she which I understand is not the case with everyone, but it is what works for us. It's showing our love and perhaps sending out a little message. People will never get used to it unless we get out there and act just like everyone else.

We walked around downtown Baltimore holding hands and of course we got the ignorant minded stares but a black woman stopped and looked at us and said 'now that's what I'm talking about.'

So you have to take the bad with the good. I've always believed that silence and inaction solves nothing when it comes to creating tolerance and acceptance.

Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: lowcountrygirl on March 31, 2007, 10:59:39 PM
My girlfriend and I (and we are interracial to boot) hold hands everywhere and kiss goodbye at airports, shopping malls, the street, whatever. I have to be honest, I don't even give it a second thought other than the satisfaction I get from watching people disgusted and yet not look away.

I feel comfortable enough to do it and so does she which I understand is not the case with everyone, but it is what works for us. It's showing our love and perhaps sending out a little message. People will never get used to it unless we get out there and act just like everyone else.

We walked around downtown Baltimore holding hands and of course we got the ignorant minded stares but a black woman stopped and looked at us and said 'now that's what I'm talking about.'

So you have to take the bad with the good. I've always believed that silence and inaction solves nothing when it comes to creating tolerance and acceptance.

Chas, I admire you for deciding to display affection no matter what response you get. I understand your point! I just don't have your kahunas moxie! ;)

Shelly and I, also interracial, are not so bold.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: milomorris on April 01, 2007, 12:27:17 AM

My girlfriend and I (and we are interracial to boot) hold hands everywhere and kiss goodbye at airports, shopping malls, the street, whatever.




Shelly and I, also interracial, are not so bold.


Interesting. My partner (a white guy) and I usually avoid traditional public displays of affection (PDAs). We have developed a set of gestures--our little sign language--to express ourselves in public. There are those times, though, when nothing less than a kiss or a hug will do.

Hey!!! Maybe we should start an interracial relationships thread here at DC?!?!
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Kelpersmek on April 01, 2007, 07:44:28 AM
in general my partner and I keep our hands off each other in public.  We know people can be offended/uncomfortable/embarrassed by homo or hetero kissy-huggy stuff.

I think that in general there's a polite level of public affection, regardless of orientation.
While it's acceptable for me to kiss my wife in public, it's not generally acceptable to go into a passionate French kiss when you're standing with people right next to you. 
Holding hands, arm around a shoulder or waist, just walking together in contact and smiling at one another... these are totally acceptable and normal things which heterosexual couples can do without making people uncomfortable (well, the vast majority of people). 

It's the kind of thing that people shouldn't look twice at, but with same-sex or interracial couples they attract a lot of unwanted attention.  I am always cheered by the sight of LGBT couples holding hands in public.  I take it as a small sign that the culture is making progress.  People won't get used to it unless it happens, and I am really pleased to know that people begin to relax enough to share a small moment of tenderness in public view without the fear of repercussions.  They are showing that there is nothing wrong with them, nothing to be hidden behind doors, away from the public.

(I have to say I don't even usually notice interracial couples as anything "out-of-the-ordinary".  I suppose if I was in an area where racial tension is higher, I would.  It's just not my personal experience.)

I suppose the first step is having to put up with the occasional asshat who yells abuse, and the fear of something violent.  Then we get to s atsge where people may glare or shift about uncomfortably, and then eventually it just changes into general interest.  Eventually we might get to the stage where a public kiss is not a remarkable event.

What gets me though, is that it has to be one of the most alienating, disheartening things.  At the same time, it's hardly a huge step for people to make the leap from "gay people exist (/interracial couples exist)" to "that would explain the two guys kissing".  Infuriating.

In Orwell's 1984, the real evil is the methods that society uses to crush people.  People focus on the constant surveillance from telescreens, but in fact I always think it's the little things which have the greatest impact.  Dull razors, unappetising food, demonising sex...
I kind of feel that the social pressure not to show affection in public must be like that for LGBT couples.  It's not just the threat of possible violence, it's the general low level hate and discomfort that will be drawn out of almost any large enough crowd.  Having to bear it in mind every time you leave privacy.  It's horrible.

I'd be interested to hear people's actual experiences of reaction to public affection.  Is it your experience that it is a hidden but palpable reaction, or overt censure?  When there is a reaction/lack of reaction, is it generally less of a reaction than you expect, or more vicious than you anticipated?
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Kelpersmek on April 01, 2007, 07:52:56 AM
I was determined to go again and again, until I cured myself.

Bravo Zth, that was brilliantly said.

I think you've hit it pretty much spot on with what people can do to help.
The ingrained prejudices of society have caused us to have pretty fucked up reactions to things which we know in our brain to be perfectly normal.  We have to take steps to cure ourselves (and I am sure different things will help different people).
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: john john on April 01, 2007, 09:09:00 AM
It's fascinating to me how people can tolerate violence and yet be so bothered by demonstrations of love and affection.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: merrobot on April 01, 2007, 09:15:53 AM
I'd be interested to hear people's actual experiences of reaction to public affection.  Is it your experience that it is a hidden but palpable reaction, or overt censure?  When there is a reaction/lack of reaction, is it generally less of a reaction than you expect, or more vicious than you anticipated?

Well, there are only a couple of incidents that stand out in my mind and they really aren't very dramatic.  I was reasonably demonstrative with my ex-girlfriend - always a hug and a kiss when we met up, often held hands in public.  Now, I guess we had similar colouring - same hair and eye colour.  I remember once standing at a set of traffic lights holding hands and waiting to cross and this guy came over to me and asked if we were sisters and his facial expression changed from confused to disgusted when I said 'no' but he didn't give us any other hassle.  Another time we were leaving a gay bar in town and some random guy shouted, "are you a couple of lesbos?" to which my ex replied with something like "what do you think?" (given he must have seen where what bar we had just come out of).  Again, no threat of violence but I was much more intimated that time as it was dark and pub chucking out time tends to fill the streets with people who are more likely to pick a fight.  I guess in some ways we were probably lucky, in others I think the fact that we were women and people obviously tried to rationalise our affection away as "sisters" or "very close friends" probably made things easier for us.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: milomorris on April 01, 2007, 01:50:55 PM

Porno on video screens, nude dancers, scary drag queens with attitude, groping in dark corners, botoxed older men with twenty-something year old twinks hanging on them for drinks and more.


BWAAAHAAAHAAA!!!!

Sounds like my kinda place!! Laissez le bon temps roulez!!

Seriously, though...in a perfect world, straight people would not hesitate to go out with their gay friends/family/colleagues and have a good time in a gay bar. Here in Philly we have Woody's. Its an old, well-established cornerstone in the gay community here. People come in there with their straight friends/family/colleagues all the time. There's no porn, no strippers, and the bouncers will get after you if you get too grope-y with another guy in there. Woody's has established a reputation across the region as the straight-friendly gay bar.

But I honestly don’t know how much it helps for straight people to observe/experience gays in the isolated environment of a gay bar. It still allows for a psychological compartmentalization of relations between gays. What will help sensible, well-meaning people like sugarcheryl most is to see gay people interacting in public on a more regular basis. Or to see gays portrayed in neutral, everyday situations in the media. A person can best learn that something is “normal” or acceptable by experiencing it in their own environment.

Milo
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: zth on April 01, 2007, 01:52:12 PM
I get neurotic/nervous at seeing 2 men kissing on the street. Not that you see it here; mostly back in NY.
I get neurotic at guys holding hands in public.
Am I completely at ease with gay men? yeah.
Am I offended at it? nope [ well, the whole bar scene can close down so far as I'm concerned but that's a preference, have no use for it]

Am I a 'straight male'? nope.

Just neurotic

WHUT ?  :o

I never thought I would read something like that from you bb_1, I am really surprized!

Well? Have you thought about that? Have you an explaination about why you are neurotic to that?
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: michaelflanagansf on April 01, 2007, 01:57:58 PM

Porno on video screens, nude dancers, scary drag queens with attitude, groping in dark corners, botoxed older men with twenty-something year old twinks hanging on them for drinks and more.


BWAAAHAAAHAAA!!!!

Sounds like my kinda place!! Laissez le bon temps roulez!!

Milo we must go out for a drink sometime!  :D

But I honestly don’t know how much it helps for straight people to observe/experience gays in the isolated environment of a gay bar. It still allows for a psychological compartmentalization of relations between gays.

I agree with you here too.  Sure there are lots of neighborhood bars where you really couldn't tell if the people in them were gay or straight until you look at who were paired up with one another - but trying to get to know people in a bar (gay or straight) is often a daunting task.  Plus the stereotyping/compartmentalization you speak of is way too easy - 'gays go to bars and pick each other up'.

It's about as realistic as trying to understand the dynamics of straight people while they are having a fight at Thanksgiving dinner (an event I was all to familiar with long before BBM!).
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: zth on April 01, 2007, 01:57:59 PM
My girlfriend and I (and we are interracial to boot) hold hands everywhere and kiss goodbye at airports, shopping malls, the street, whatever. I have to be honest, I don't even give it a second thought other than the satisfaction I get from watching people disgusted and yet not look away.

I feel comfortable enough to do it and so does she which I understand is not the case with everyone, but it is what works for us. It's showing our love and perhaps sending out a little message. People will never get used to it unless we get out there and act just like everyone else.

We walked around downtown Baltimore holding hands and of course we got the ignorant minded stares but a black woman stopped and looked at us and said 'now that's what I'm talking about.'

So you have to take the bad with the good. I've always believed that silence and inaction solves nothing when it comes to creating tolerance and acceptance.



AMEN !! AMEN maidenofthesea !! LOVE YOU !!    :-*  Thank you for posting this!
This is exactly what I am trying to talk about. Gays must act, they must do something for this situation.
A few gay-friendly straights are not enough. People have to get used to the sight of it.
You shouldn't give a shit about this kind of bad reactions.

I wish every gay person started doing this. I wish everyone came out. I wish that this 10% became at least 50% !!
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Brokeback_1 on April 01, 2007, 02:10:10 PM
Jean, I don't like violence. It sucks
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Brokeback_1 on April 01, 2007, 02:13:03 PM
I get neurotic/nervous at seeing 2 men kissing on the street. Not that you see it here; mostly back in NY.
I get neurotic at guys holding hands in public.
Am I completely at ease with gay men? yeah.
Am I offended at it? nope [ well, the whole bar scene can close down so far as I'm concerned but that's a preference, have no use for it]

Am I a 'straight male'? nope.

Just neurotic

WHUT ?  :o

I never thought I would read something like that from you bb_1, I am really surprized!

Well? Have you thought about that? Have you an explaination about why you are neurotic to that?

I dunno  zth. It surprised ME , and I WROTE it.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: lowcountrygirl on April 01, 2007, 02:13:22 PM
Interesting. My partner (a white guy) and I usually avoid traditional public displays of affection (PDAs). We have developed a set of gestures--our little sign language--to express ourselves in public. There are those times, though, when nothing less than a kiss or a hug will do.

Hey!!! Maybe we should start an interracial relationships thread here at DC?!?!

Sure! Why not?
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: lowcountrygirl on April 01, 2007, 02:18:26 PM
I suppose the first step is having to put up with the occasional asshat who yells abuse, and the fear of something violent.  Then we get to s atsge where people may glare or shift about uncomfortably, and then eventually it just changes into general interest.  Eventually we might get to the stage where a public kiss is not a remarkable event.

What gets me though, is that it has to be one of the most alienating, disheartening things.  At the same time, it's hardly a huge step for people to make the leap from "gay people exist (/interracial couples exist)" to "that would explain the two guys kissing".  Infuriating.

In Orwell's 1984, the real evil is the methods that society uses to crush people.  People focus on the constant surveillance from telescreens, but in fact I always think it's the little things which have the greatest impact.  Dull razors, unappetising food, demonising sex...
I kind of feel that the social pressure not to show affection in public must be like that for LGBT couples.  It's not just the threat of possible violence, it's the general low level hate and discomfort that will be drawn out of almost any large enough crowd.  Having to bear it in mind every time you leave privacy.  It's horrible.

I adore you, Alan! (Just thought I'd share) :-*

Quote
I'd be interested to hear people's actual experiences of reaction to public affection.  Is it your experience that it is a hidden but palpable reaction, or overt censure?  When there is a reaction/lack of reaction, is it generally less of a reaction than you expect, or more vicious than you anticipated?

Shelly and I went to Myrtle Beach one time when she was visiting and we were pretty careful not to do the PDA thing at all. But we went into a couple of Christian stores because she wanted a cross and in one of them, I can only guess we were standing too close to each other or looking at each other intimately or something because we received the dreaded glare!
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: zth on April 01, 2007, 02:28:37 PM
Oh! And about peoples reactions on the street, and accepting things...

I recently found out about agroup of people here, that have been publicing a magazine, called 10%,
but now they only do it on the internet.
They have various chapters, about HIV, safe sex, homophobia, and many others..

What I liked most, was an article about public acceptance.
So what they did was the following :
A group of people gathered. Two of them, would pretend to be a gay couple,
acting freely on streets/coffeeshops/public places. So they were huging and kissing, as every straight couple would normally do.
All other members of the group, were arround them, but pretending to be just passengers. What they were doing,
was that they were listening to other people's reactions to the gay couple.

Some of them would only smile, others would make a silly joke, others were completely indifferent, some would say "FAGOTS!", others were very curious. But NONE of them attacked or insulted the couple directly!

The fake couple actually went to a supposingly gay-friendly coffeshop, and started kissing.
The bar-man came to them and said: "Please, try to be more discreet, this is not a gay bar".
Then the gay couple answered : "Why should we be discreet? It doesn't have to be a gay bar. This straight couple over there is doing the same thing, and you told them nothing similar".  The barman left them alone, and didn't dare to tell them anything similar again!

I found this "experiment" very good, and very effective. By finding out that people are not accepting, but they are tolerant,
it is a great step. And this is what closeted gays should keep in mind.  I strongly believe that after tolerance PLUS everyday exposure,
acceptance is inevitable.

Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: lowcountrygirl on April 01, 2007, 02:28:39 PM
Seriously, though...in a perfect world, straight people would not hesitate to go out with their gay friends/family/colleagues and have a good time in a gay bar. Here in Philly we have Woody's. Its an old, well-established cornerstone in the gay community here. People come in there with their straight friends/family/colleagues all the time. There's no porn, no strippers, and the bouncers will get after you if you get too grope-y with another guy in there. Woody's has established a reputation across the region as the straight-friendly gay bar.

But I honestly don’t know how much it helps for straight people to observe/experience gays in the isolated environment of a gay bar. It still allows for a psychological compartmentalization of relations between gays. What will help sensible, well-meaning people like sugarcheryl most is to see gay people interacting in public on a more regular basis. Or to see gays portrayed in neutral, everyday situations in the media. A person can best learn that something is “normal” or acceptable by experiencing it in their own environment.

Milo

Hey, Milo...

If you were looking for a gay-friendly place to live, first of all, do you think you'd find one? Heh.

Secondly, how concerned would you be about how many black people lived there? I mentioned Vermont to a straight, white friend of mine who is married to a black guy and she was horrified that I'd even consider it, because "there won't be any other black people there!!!"

And finally, what do you know about New Hope? I hear it is a friendly small town with lots of gay people!

Jeanine
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: milomorris on April 01, 2007, 03:16:09 PM

If you were looking for a gay-friendly place to live, first of all, do you think you'd find one? Heh.


As Billy Costigan (Leonardo DiCaprio) said to Brown (Anthony Anderson) in The Departed, "Put it this way...you're a black guy in Boston. You don't need any help from me to be completely fucked."

I grew up in Boston. While it is notoriously unfriendly, there are plenty of worse places in the US for gays and ethnic minorities. Likewise there are places that are more friendly and accepting of diversity, like Philadelphia where I have lived for over 2 decades. One can find enlightened individuals, as well as bigots anywhere. To me its a matter of the proportions of these two categories of people in a given city/community. It is important to me to have some idea of how the negative bigoted element will react to me, and how the positive enlightened element will then react to them. Will the bad guys react violently, or with quiet disdain? Will the good guys defend me, or sit watching in passive fear? No place is perfect. Its just a matter of finding a comfortable fit between me and the place where I live.


Secondly, how concerned would you be about how many black people lived there? I mentioned Vermont to a straight, white friend of mine who is married to a black guy and she was horrified that I'd even consider it, because "there won't be any other black people there!!!"


For me, it is important to know not only how many black people live in city X, but also how many Hispanics, Jews, Muslims, recent immigrants, etc. The more diverse a place is, the more at ease I feel. More importantly, are the neighborhoods mixed, or segregated? Likewise, I like to know something about the economics of the place. I don’t just look for black people. I look for upwardly mobile, career-oriented black people. One of the things that impressed me about Philadelphia (and Washington, DC) is the population of black professionals. The black community here in Philly has a great deal of diversity within itself.


And finally, what do you know about New Hope? I hear it is a friendly small town with lots of gay people!


New Hope is very nice, very wealthy, very gay, and very tourist-y. Most people who live there feel quite comfortable. Some people feel that it is a bit like a gay Stepford. You have to be the “right kind” of gay person to fit in. If you’re thinking about a visit, I highly recommend it.

Milo
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: michaelflanagansf on April 01, 2007, 03:17:59 PM
This is an interesting question - regarding public displays of affection.  Who gets to say what is too much and if affection is OK in public are other sorts of emotional displays OK as well?

My feeling is that when you do this you are automatically cutting yourself off from people around you - saying 'I'm only interested in this person - back off and leave us alone'.  It has a really exclusionary feel to it.  If you are at a restaurant you are forcing the person who has to wait on you to either interrupt or try to figure out when you are going to come up for air.  I have friends who are waiters who have to deal with this sort of thing.  It does not seem friendly or polite to the people around you.

I have stopped straight couples from displaying extreme affection in the library where I work.  It's not fun.  The one couple that remains (indelibly) fixed in my mind was a couple with the woman straddling the man on a chair in plain view of everyone and making out - it was quickly proceeding to a lap dance.  I told them to either stop it or I would have the police escort them from the building.  Should I have not done this?

If you think this is acceptable or a good idea let me ask a follow up question: Do you think couples or families (again, gay or straight - it really doesn't matter to me) should be allowed to express all types of emotions in public - and to what extent?  If so what about having an argument in public?  Do you feel comfortable around that?  And what if it has physical results - say initially not towards the other person - if the person throws down their silverware or throws the napkin down on the plate?  When should someone intervene?  Or should they?  Is this a private matter - much like affection in public - and should be left alone?  What about children in public?  If a child throws a tantrum in a public place should the parent ignore it or take them outside?  What if the child begins throwing things on the floor in a restaurant? [I've seen this as well]

In short I'm asking what emotions are OK to display in public and how far do you think people should be allowed to go with them?  I'm not sure I would like gay people to be following the example of some of the straight people I have seen.

Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: milomorris on April 01, 2007, 04:55:44 PM

This is an interesting question - regarding public displays of affection.  Who gets to say what is too much and if affection is OK in public are other sorts of emotional displays OK as well?


Ya know, back in the old days, we had this thing called decorum. I think the company that made it went out of business a while ago.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: michaelflanagansf on April 01, 2007, 05:02:20 PM
This is an interesting question - regarding public displays of affection.  Who gets to say what is too much and if affection is OK in public are other sorts of emotional displays OK as well?

Ya know, back in the old days, we had this thing called decorum. I think the company that made it went out of business a while ago.

Amen to that.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: fritzkep on April 01, 2007, 05:22:36 PM
Agree totally. People in public places may exchange hugs and kisses, for gay and straight people equally, but extended makeout sessions in public are quite rude.

Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: lowcountrygirl on April 01, 2007, 06:44:32 PM
To me its a matter of the proportions of these two categories of people in a given city/community. It is important to me to have some idea of how the negative bigoted element will react to me, and how the positive enlightened element will then react to them. Will the bad guys react violently, or with quiet disdain? Will the good guys defend me, or sit watching in passive fear? No place is perfect. Its just a matter of finding a comfortable fit between me and the place where I live.  ...


For me, it is important to know not only how many black people live in city X, but also how many Hispanics, Jews, Muslims, recent immigrants, etc. The more diverse a place is, the more at ease I feel. More importantly, are the neighborhoods mixed, or segregated? Likewise, I like to know something about the economics of the place. I don’t just look for black people. I look for upwardly mobile, career-oriented black people. One of the things that impressed me about Philadelphia (and Washington, DC) is the population of black professionals. The black community here in Philly has a great deal of diversity within itself.

Milo

Those are excellent points!!

I'm glad you feel comfortable in Philly.

Jeanine
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: maidenofthesea on April 01, 2007, 09:21:06 PM
This may a little optimistic (which is something I am so rarely) but I believe that as long as we believe that the reaction will be bad, then it will be. The definition of PDA aside, I want to see a world that doesn't blink or think twice at the sight of two men or two women kissing goodbye or holding hands in public. We certainly don't between men and women. I guess I just can't see that ever happening as long as we are afraid. Ever since seeing Brokeback (and being an Ennis myself) I do not want to let fear of what other people think and my own demons run my life.

I suppose all I'm saying is I want things like holding hands to be normal for us and for them when they see it.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: john john on April 01, 2007, 09:32:02 PM
I guess it's the burden of being a minority. If 10% of the population is gay, how long will it take for the enormous 90% to get used to us holding hands or kissing? Slowly, very slowly methinks.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: bradINblue on April 01, 2007, 09:37:11 PM
Quote
I guess I just can't see that ever happening as long as we are afraid.

Yeah, why be afraid of stares or what people think. I still, despite being so comfortable being 'me', have trouble in this area. It's interesting. I don't seem to care what people/family I am close to think. It's about what strangers think. When in the throws of 'gay' community, I've never been taunted or hurt based on homophobia, why should I care what strangers think?

Brad
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: michaelflanagansf on April 01, 2007, 11:02:26 PM
Yeah, why be afraid of stares or what people think. I still, despite being so comfortable being 'me', have trouble in this area. It's interesting. I don't seem to care what people/family I am close to think. It's about what strangers think. When in the throws of 'gay' community, I've never been taunted or hurt based on homophobia, why should I care what strangers think?

Brad

It's a tough one, Brad.  Honestly, it's taken me years not to care.  With me it's not about fear so much as it is about anger.  I get quite p.o.ed - particularly when I think people are mocking me.  Hasn't happened in a few years - but it still does occasionally.  I think the desire to be liked runs pretty deep.

mf
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: michaelflanagansf on April 01, 2007, 11:09:44 PM
^^^  Let me explain that a little bit.

The example I'm thinking of is a kid I was helping in the library.  She started mocking the way I was gesturing.  It was right at the end of my shift.  What peeved me the most was that she was young enough to have grown up without all that c*** - and this is the bay area, so you would think she would have.

On the other hand I had an old guy call me 'sissy' under his breath as he walked by me on the train and I nearly doubled up with laughter.  I just couldn't get over that he though this was an insult and I guess I didn't expect more out of him.  So you can just never tell how you're going to react.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: zth on April 02, 2007, 03:19:35 AM
This may a little optimistic (which is something I am so rarely) but I believe that as long as we believe that the reaction will be bad, then it will be. The definition of PDA aside, I want to see a world that doesn't blink or think twice at the sight of two men or two women kissing goodbye or holding hands in public. We certainly don't between men and women. I guess I just can't see that ever happening as long as we are afraid. Ever since seeing Brokeback (and being an Ennis myself) I do not want to let fear of what other people think and my own demons run my life.

I suppose all I'm saying is I want things like holding hands to be normal for us and for them when they see it.

Totally agree with you!
I am very impressed that you are actually an Ennis type!  :o
I am really proud of people like you!
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: zth on April 02, 2007, 03:21:19 AM
I guess it's the burden of being a minority. If 10% of the population is gay, how long will it take for the enormous 90% to get used to us holding hands or kissing? Slowly, very slowly methinks.

I will say it again : 10% is ONLY those gays who have come out. If the closeted gays came out too,
that 10% could change dramatically...
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: michaelflanagansf on April 02, 2007, 04:02:08 AM
Regarding the demographics of sexual orientation the 10% figure which is widely quoted is from the Kinsey Report on the Human Male - and that research is over 50 years old.  There is some interesting research sited on this wikipedia article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_sexual_orientation

And unlike wikipedia articles without citations, this one has good documentation.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: zth on April 02, 2007, 04:12:24 AM
IMO, it is not possible to have a good statistical result for such a subject.

How many people will accept to be questioned?
I think that a closeted person would never agree to be questioned at all.
So still this 10% comes from the not closeted questioned people.
I am pretty sure that gays are much more than only 10% of the world population.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Nax on April 02, 2007, 07:37:00 AM
I also think we may be talking about the two discreet absolute states here; exclusively heterosexual or exclusively homosexual.  The Kinsey scale recognised that there are a load of values in between and what is needed to give a view of distribution is some sort of graph based on the scale which is:-

Rating Description
0 Exclusively heterosexual
1 Predominantly heterosexual, only incidentally homosexual
2 Predominantly heterosexual, but more than incidentally homosexual
3 Equally heterosexual and homosexual
4 Predominantly homosexual, but more than incidentally heterosexual
5 Predominantly homosexual, only incidentally heterosexual
6 Exclusively homosexual
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: michaelflanagansf on April 02, 2007, 10:49:37 AM
Thanks Neil, that's certainly true - Kinsey measures absolutes.  And it's also been criticized for fixing people with identities as opposed to dealing with how people are acting at a particular time in their life.  There is an alternative to this, it's called the Klein Sexual Orientation Grid:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klein_Sexual_Orientation_Grid

Both Kinsey and Klein are interesting as they are sexologists who spent their whole lives researching these topics and attempting to put them in the realm of science.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: lowcountrygirl on April 02, 2007, 11:16:45 AM
I think 10% is a low estimate!

It reminds me of the percentages of children who are sexually abused. Whenever you run across those, there's always a disclaimer that the figures are based on reported cases, so the real numbers may be higher.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: john john on April 02, 2007, 02:52:30 PM
Thanks Neil, that's certainly true - Kinsey measures absolutes.  And it's also been criticized for fixing people with identities as opposed to dealing with how people are acting at a particular time in their life.  There is an alternative to this, it's called the Klein Sexual Orientation Grid:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klein_Sexual_Orientation_Grid

Both Kinsey and Klein are interesting as they are sexologists who spent their whole lives researching these topics and attempting to put them in the realm of science.

Thanks Micheal. What I see from bothe Kinsey's and Klein's scales is that it's next to impossible to measure this accurately. All that could possibly be done is evalute the people who consider themselves as definately gay TODAY! ;D
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: michaelflanagansf on April 02, 2007, 04:14:12 PM
Thanks Neil, that's certainly true - Kinsey measures absolutes.  And it's also been criticized for fixing people with identities as opposed to dealing with how people are acting at a particular time in their life.  There is an alternative to this, it's called the Klein Sexual Orientation Grid:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klein_Sexual_Orientation_Grid

Both Kinsey and Klein are interesting as they are sexologists who spent their whole lives researching these topics and attempting to put them in the realm of science.

Thanks Micheal. What I see from bothe Kinsey's and Klein's scales is that it's next to impossible to measure this accurately. All that could possibly be done is evalute the people who consider themselves as definately gay TODAY! ;D

Perhaps, Jean, but I think there is a real bias against the social sciences.  Part of the reason they do blind (and double blind) surveys is to get around peoples fears and biases.  And when survey statistics repeatedly report similar things it seems (to me at least) to add to their weight.  And it's not like these individuals are (necessarily) homophobic - Kinsey himself was bisexual.

Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: merrobot on April 02, 2007, 04:35:16 PM
Thanks Neil, that's certainly true - Kinsey measures absolutes.  And it's also been criticized for fixing people with identities as opposed to dealing with how people are acting at a particular time in their life.  There is an alternative to this, it's called the Klein Sexual Orientation Grid:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klein_Sexual_Orientation_Grid

Both Kinsey and Klein are interesting as they are sexologists who spent their whole lives researching these topics and attempting to put them in the realm of science.

That's very interesting, Michael! 

I would hazard a guess that people might classify people by behaviour not identity because (a) pre-1970s the social sciences (or at least psychology) were dominated by 'behaviourists' and (b) identity is much harder to define - in the same circumstances one person might identify as gay/lesbian while another identifies as bisexual.  There is also a tendency to assume that behaviour (being 'observable') is more objective and measurable than 'identity' which is a set of beliefs/attitudes and therefore 'subjective' and more difficult to conceptualise and measure.  That being said, I think the recent advances in social sciences and again in psychology would probably make a new study in this area a very interesting endevour  :) 
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: michaelflanagansf on April 02, 2007, 04:56:43 PM
That being said, I think the recent advances in social sciences and again in psychology would probably make a new study in this area a very interesting endevour  :) 

I agree!  I also don't know why they haven't tried surveying people while testing physical responses - particularly to stimuli.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: MonteCristo on April 03, 2007, 11:12:38 AM
You all may be moving on but I seem to be stuck on the Public Displays of Affection idea.  Last night I was thinking about it and recalled that the most negative reaction I've ever experienced from a PDA was something that happened when our family stopped for a bite to eat on a road trip. My granddaughter was 3 years old then---shes 17 now.  At our booth in the restaurant she was crawling all over me because I am/was(he says proudly)her favorite person.  I was cuddling and kissing her which is what I always do.  I happened to look up and a 30ish couple at another booth were watching us with very strong looks of disgust.  It suddenly hit me that they thought I was a dirty old man getting his jollies with a baby.  I suddenly felt sick.  Those dirty minded people turned a perfectly innocent moment into something sleazy.  Later on I realized that I should have just hollered to them:  "It's ok, I'm queer".  Of course I could never do that but it makes me chuckle thinking about it.

Monte

Monte
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: lowcountrygirl on April 03, 2007, 11:49:47 AM
Thanks Neil, that's certainly true - Kinsey measures absolutes.  And it's also been criticized for fixing people with identities as opposed to dealing with how people are acting at a particular time in their life.  There is an alternative to this, it's called the Klein Sexual Orientation Grid:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klein_Sexual_Orientation_Grid

Both Kinsey and Klein are interesting as they are sexologists who spent their whole lives researching these topics and attempting to put them in the realm of science.

That's very interesting, Michael! 

I would hazard a guess that people might classify people by behaviour not identity because (a) pre-1970s the social sciences (or at least psychology) were dominated by 'behaviourists' and (b) identity is much harder to define - in the same circumstances one person might identify as gay/lesbian while another identifies as bisexual.  There is also a tendency to assume that behaviour (being 'observable') is more objective and measurable than 'identity' which is a set of beliefs/attitudes and therefore 'subjective' and more difficult to conceptualise and measure.  That being said, I think the recent advances in social sciences and again in psychology would probably make a new study in this area a very interesting endevour  :) 

Hmm.

I made a little grid based on the Klein scale...




                                                    Present (past 12mos)                          Past (up to 12 mos ago)                          Ideal (future)


Sexual Attraction                                      6                                                             3(?)                                                 7


Sexual Behavior                                       7                                                             2                                                     7


Sexual Fantasies                                      3                                                             2                                                     5


Emotional Preference                              4-5                                                          3-4                                                   5


Social Preference                                     7                                                             3                                                     5


I see the way it creates more choices, so is not as rigid, maybe, as the Kinsey Scale. But I don't really see how you would put all this info together to mean anything.

Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: sugarcheryl on April 03, 2007, 12:02:14 PM
You all may be moving on but I seem to be stuck on the Public Displays of Affection idea.  Last night I was thinking about it and recalled that the most negative reaction I've ever experienced from a PDA was something that happened when our family stopped for a bite to eat on a road trip. My granddaughter was 3 years old then---shes 17 now.  At our booth in the restaurant she was crawling all over me because I am/was(he says proudly)her favorite person.  I was cuddling and kissing her which is what I always do.  I happened to look up and a 30ish couple at another booth were watching us with very strong looks of disgust.  It suddenly hit me that they thought I was a dirty old man getting his jollies with a baby.  I suddenly felt sick.  Those dirty minded people turned a perfectly innocent moment into something sleazy.  Later on I realized that I should have just hollered to them:  "It's ok, I'm queer".  Of course I could never do that but it makes me chuckle thinking about it.

Monte

Monte

Awww Monte....that story actually kinda pissed me off. Never have I or would I think something like that about innocent loving between and parent/grandparent and their child. I do however sorta understand what those people might of been thinking. Todays society puts those thoughts into our heads.....even 15 years ago, unfortunatly. Its just too damn bad. But these people also should of noticed the way in which your granddaughter was carrying on. IF she was a victim she wouldnt of been "happy" crawling all over you for loves....she would of been pushing away from you and not a willing participant. So in that case....I would of gave them a "this is none of your damn business, go back to eating your waffles" look. lol!
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: shelber on April 06, 2007, 01:57:33 AM
wow! thats all i can say

i kind of disappeared from my own thread, and now look at it. its been a few pages since i last checked in, lots of posts. to be honest i quit popping by because i didnt like the tense feeling i had, i thought that i had started something that ended with others having hurt feelings, i had debated about whether i should ask a mod to delete the whole thing, but i am glad i didnt. i love how its got so many new thoughts and posts, thanks for keeping it going!
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: maidenofthesea on April 10, 2007, 08:48:53 PM
wow! thats all i can say

i kind of disappeared from my own thread, and now look at it. its been a few pages since i last checked in, lots of posts. to be honest i quit popping by because i didnt like the tense feeling i had, i thought that i had started something that ended with others having hurt feelings, i had debated about whether i should ask a mod to delete the whole thing, but i am glad i didnt. i love how its got so many new thoughts and posts, thanks for keeping it going!

We love you hun!  :-*
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: chiaros on April 13, 2007, 07:18:44 PM
... why civil unions still don't cut it and still count as a "dodge" by reluctant legislatures (and societies?)
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/13/nyregion/13civil.html?ref=nyregion
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: chiaros on April 13, 2007, 07:24:32 PM
Re: the Imus flap and the double standards society has:
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/13/opinion/13fierstein.html?hp
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: john john on April 13, 2007, 09:17:23 PM
Re: the Imus flap and the double standards society has:
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/13/opinion/13fierstein.html?hp

That's very good. Thanks Chiaros.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: lowcountrygirl on April 13, 2007, 10:59:02 PM
Re: the Imus flap and the double standards society has:
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/13/opinion/13fierstein.html?hp

That's very good. Thanks Chiaros.

Fantastic article!!
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: michaelflanagansf on April 22, 2007, 05:45:25 AM
Thought you might all find this article from Salon about the 'Day of Silence' interesting:

http://www.salon.com/mwt/broadsheet/2007/04/19/day_of_silence/index.html
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: estefue on April 22, 2007, 09:17:37 AM
And so it goes.  When so much is going on in the world this is what they focus on.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: lowcountrygirl on April 22, 2007, 12:11:43 PM
That article certainly makes it clear that society is not so accepting! The part that particularly saddens me is the part about the girl being suspended because of other people's reactions to her.

I get the impression that they were not suspended!
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: michaelflanagansf on April 22, 2007, 02:45:36 PM
And so it goes.  When so much is going on in the world this is what they focus on.

Very good point Esteban.  They seem very insular. 
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: bradINblue on April 25, 2007, 11:57:47 AM
What follows is a part of a long post I did in the Impact thread:

I'm going to quote from an article Shanda Krochmal found in May's Out magazine by :
But it wasn't until last year that queers finally broke the sound barrier: Brokeback Mountain won three Academy Awards and has now grossed $175 million world-wide. In fewer than five months Lance Bass, T.R. Knight, and Neil Patrick Harris all stepped up and out. More recently, Ellen hosted the Oscars to near-universal claim. So have we reached a Hollywood tipping point--or at least the final plateau right before the summit?  "I'm not trying to sound like a Pollyanna," says Simon Halls, a gay partner at publicity powerhouse PMK/HBH, "but I think what we're finding is that people are far more accepting than anyone would have given them credit for." I applaud Out magazine and Simon Halls for 'coming out of the closet' in regard to the miss-assumtion that a majority of the rank and file straights in this country are intolerant toward us homos.

Brad
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: graylockV on April 25, 2007, 02:01:18 PM

.... the miss-assumtion that a majority of the rank and file straights in this country are intolerant toward us homos.


Intolerant - no.

Uncomfortable - yes.

IMHO
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: lowcountrygirl on April 25, 2007, 02:09:08 PM

.... the miss-assumtion that a majority of the rank and file straights in this country are intolerant toward us homos.


Intolerant - no.

Uncomfortable - yes.

IMHO

I wouldn't say that the "majority" are intolerant, but it's a pretty healthy number!

And in that article, they gay actors who came out had been or were about to be outed.

Jeanine

Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: michaelflanagansf on April 25, 2007, 02:26:57 PM
I wouldn't say that the "majority" are intolerant, but it's a pretty healthy number!

And in that article, they gay actors who came out had been or were about to be outed.

Jeanine

Well...you know...I think it differs from place to place - again the problem with the 'society' thing. Here in San Francisco it's kind of a non-issue most of the time.  And, of course, there are countries where things seem to have moved quite far forward - in Canada or the Netherlands, for example, where people can get married and enter the armed forces I would say people are quite tolerant.

Now, if you were to think about places like Serbia or Poland where gay pride marches still get pelted with garbage you might have a different notion.

It's hard to generalize, generally.  :D
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: john john on April 25, 2007, 03:32:33 PM
Here in Quebec, where gays can now marry, homophobia is still around.
People here are not intolerant enough to take away gay people's rights but aren't
necessarily comfortable with the issue. Now that the laws are in place I suspect the general population will slowly come to terms with it.
What worries me is immigration. We are a secular country, immigrants bring with them their often intolerant religions.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: michaelflanagansf on April 25, 2007, 04:02:59 PM
Here in Quebec, where gays can now marry, homophobia is still around.
People here are not intolerant enough to take away gay people's rights but aren't
necessarily comfortable with the issue. Now that the laws are in place I suspect the general population will slowly come to terms with it.
What worries me is immigration. We are a secular country, immigrants bring with them their often intolerant religions.

That seems like so much unnecessary work!  We already have our own.  :D

Seriously though, you're right - you can't legislate attitude - people's beliefs are their own.  You can ask people to be civil to one another in public and generally they will be, but changing beliefs takes a very long time, imho.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: lowcountrygirl on April 25, 2007, 06:28:17 PM
I wouldn't say that the "majority" are intolerant, but it's a pretty healthy number!

And in that article, they gay actors who came out had been or were about to be outed.

Jeanine

Well...you know...I think it differs from place to place - again the problem with the 'society' thing. Here in San Francisco it's kind of a non-issue most of the time.  And, of course, there are countries where things seem to have moved quite far forward - in Canada or the Netherlands, for example, where people can get married and enter the armed forces I would say people are quite tolerant.

Now, if you were to think about places like Serbia or Poland where gay pride marches still get pelted with garbage you might have a different notion.

It's hard to generalize, generally.  :D

True. I was thinking of the U.S., actually.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: bradINblue on April 30, 2007, 10:56:35 PM


And in that article, they gay actors who came out had been or were about to be outed.

Jeanine



We musta' read two different articles......

Brad
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: lowcountrygirl on May 02, 2007, 12:30:24 PM


And in that article, they gay actors who came out had been or were about to be outed.

Jeanine



We musta' read two different articles......

Brad

I was referring to Lance Bass, T.R. Knight and Neil Patrick Harris, all of whom were mentioned in your quote from the article.

They came out after either being outed (T.R. and Neil) or because they knew they were about to be (and actually, I think even with Lance, people had seen them together and were beginning to report it).

But I didn't read the article, itself. I didn't notice a link. I was referring to your quote.

Jeanine
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: graylockV on May 02, 2007, 06:17:09 PM
Some good news - Oregon is about to join those few states that offer civil unions/domestic partnerships:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070502/ap_on_re_us/oregon_gay_rights;_ylt=Ag9hfprdYxVejF_A9O9AWW5H2ocA

Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: lowcountrygirl on May 02, 2007, 10:14:11 PM
Some good news - Oregon is about to join those few states that offer civil unions/domestic partnerships:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070502/ap_on_re_us/oregon_gay_rights;_ylt=Ag9hfprdYxVejF_A9O9AWW5H2ocA

That IS good news!!
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: michaelflanagansf on May 03, 2007, 06:21:55 AM
I was referring to Lance Bass, T.R. Knight and Neil Patrick Harris, all of whom were mentioned in your quote from the article.

They came out after either being outed (T.R. and Neil) or because they knew they were about to be (and actually, I think even with Lance, people had seen them together and were beginning to report it).

But I didn't read the article, itself. I didn't notice a link. I was referring to your quote.

Jeanine

Yes, Jeanine, that's right - here's the quote from the wiki:

"Bass announced that he is gay[10] in a front page cover story for People magazine[10] on July 26, 2006. There had been considerable speculation about his sexuality due to numerous paparazzi snapshots of him at gay bars and nightclubs, most notably during July 4th weekend in Provincetown, Massachusetts.[11]"

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lance_Bass - if you want to check out the footnotes]

Much like Lance, T.R. Knight came out because of rumors - I believe the quote that comes to mind from the time is 'I hope the fact that I'm gay isn't the most interesting part of me.'

Another wiki on Neil Patrick Harris: "On November 2, 2006, after a report about Harris' purported romantic relationship with actor David Burtka surfaced on www.Canada.com,[4] Harris' publicist issued a denial, stating that the actor "is not of that persuasion."  The next day Harris (much to his credit) rebutted his publicists and said that he is, in fact, gay and content with his life.

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neil_Patrick_Harris#Personal_life]

Neil Patrick Harris was very funny at the GLAAD awards this year - he said 'Oh, sure, T.R. gets a standing ovation...what do I get!'
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: michaelflanagansf on May 07, 2007, 05:26:20 PM
I just posted this over in the 'media' section (please don't beat me for crossposting!), but thought you would like to hear about this over here - John Amaechi says he is quite surprised by the positive response he got when he came out (as opposed to, say, Ted Haggard  ;) :D):

http://news.yahoo.com/s/po/20070507/co_po/amaechiiunderestimatedamerica
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: bradINblue on May 08, 2007, 09:25:47 PM
Michael, thanks for the link.

When I decided to no longer hide, I too was surprised that no ones cared. No oppression. No hate. No discrimination. I already had family and friends (outside the gay venue) who accepted me for my values, integrity, and who I was, not who I preferred to sleep with. I haven't/don't interacted with the fire and brimstone crowd and I know what they think based on their interpretation of scripture, but having worked and lived around some, I've never felt uncomfortable and I have never heard hate-spew from these folks.

When I was hired I was married and had all hetro friends, some who were in law enforcement. I have never experienced hate rhetoric or disdain for decent folks because of who they prefer to live their lives with or who they choose to sleep with. In my experience, some of these folks are uncomfortable with the in your face stuff perpetuated by the 'gay movement' but heck, I'm uncomfortable with the same things.

It has been my experience, most people don't care. More and more folks 'come out' and have the same response as Ameachi. That response, suprise of acceptance. There are those that feel the need to perpetuate the hate, discrimination, and oppression myth toward homo's. (two areas aside--marriage which is slowly, state by state, granting civil unions in guaranteeing equal rights as married hetros and homos serving in our military--last vestige of government sponsored discrimination) but are hard pressed to find statistics to back their claims.

Like the Ameachi's of the world in which 'gay culture' isn't what they subscribe to or are in lock-step with (anti masculine, anti hetro male, anti competitive sports, femminisation of males), I think there are tens of thousands that feel they need to stay hidden cause they are certain they will not be accepted as constantly drilled into them by the victim-status agendaists.

Brad
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: LSky94 on May 08, 2007, 10:52:41 PM
I have never encountered any "victim-status agendaists."  Where are they to be found, and what are their identifiable characteristics??
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: michaelflanagansf on May 09, 2007, 12:41:53 AM
Hi Brad!  Glad you liked the article.  I thought it was particularly great that after having faced the hateful comments that Tim Hardaway made that about him that he has been able to realize that it was Hardaway's problem and that he should take people as individuals.  I'm really glad that he's had such positive experiences!  It's an uplifting story, isn't it?

[Then again, how many people are going to insult someone who's 6' 10" tall?  :D]
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: lowcountrygirl on May 14, 2007, 08:49:01 PM
Yesterday, in church, there was a baptism of a beautiful baby girl and her parents were a guy couple. First I've seen in that church and it felt like it might be the first one they'd had with two male parents.

I was thrilled!

The church is open and accepting but that was still a pleasant surprise!!

Jeanine
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: bradINblue on May 17, 2007, 04:49:59 AM
Quote
Cash crisis at PlanetOut – The owner of Gay.com and the Advocate is suffering a shortage of cash due to decreased personal ads and decreased participation in gay oriented cruises.   
In a note to investors, Richard Ingrassia, an analyst for Roth Capital Partners, said it's possible that PlanetOut would sell its travel business. Overall, he said, the company is still unchallenged in terms of reaching the gay demographic.


The above is an excerpt from TDS. Gay oriented cruises, like the gay oriented resorts of Palm Springs and Key West are, well passe'. Heck, the number of gay bars in most large cities is dwindling. One time, I ventured to a gay Palm Springs resort and found it to be an open-air bathhouse. It wasn't so much about being around gay couples and enjoying dinner and good company pool side, but about lots of random sex. I've never been on a gay cruise, but by the looks of the brochures we get, I doubt the ship is really full of twenty something muscled twinks--probably a dissapointment for most, and that says much.

Steve and I have been on several cruises and to some tropical resorts. They are 'straight' venues. We've never felt discriminated or treated differently. For us, there isn't a desire for gay cruises or gay rodeo's, for that matter. We're not looking for sex and we don't feel we need to be within' the closet of 'gayness' to be comfortable. Yeah, we can't hang on each other or be 'kissy face', but that is pretty much reserved for those starry-eyed youngins' anyway.

IMO, the good regarding the lack of interest in gay cruises or gay bars by our younger brethern (and more and more homos) is a sign that they feel society accepts them and they don't need to hide in those 'gay' venues. Also, it's not all about sex and it's not about a fabulous this and fabulous that. Those that have been making money by catering exclusivley to a 'group' had better re-think things. Homo's that have been desiring normalcy and assimilation and tolerance are getting it, and some are loosing money (and votes) in the process. Too damn bad. Progress always comes at a cost.

Brad
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: milomorris on May 17, 2007, 07:23:39 AM

Homo's that have been desiring normalcy and assimilation and tolerance are getting it,


DRAG QUEENS AND TWINKS TO THE LIFEBOATS FIRST!!!

 ;D ;D ;D ;D

You got it Brad. Things are evolving, and progress is being made. That's what we really wanted all along. For some, the evolution is moving too slowly, for others it moving at a comfortable pace.

As far gay cruises/resorts go, I agree that many of them are all about sex, and not particularly couples-oriented. That's why David and I have never taken such a vacation. But in recent years I have heard/read about cruises and resorts that are not all about sex. For example, there are the cruises that Rosie O'Donnell hosts. They are family-oriented.

Still, there are places that will discriminate. A while back, there was some discussion here about the homophobic state of things in Jamaica. And as far as I know, neither Sandals nor Club Med offer the couples rate to same-sex couples. I recall being told (a few years ago) by a travel agent that Sandals won't even book a vacation for a same-sex couple.

I hear what you are saying about not feeling the "need to be within' the closet of 'gayness'." David and I like to get around and experience the local life as much as possible when we're on vacation--whatever they have to offer. Many times, we'll go someplace and never set foot in a gay bar. But I can certainly understand the desire to commune with other members of one's own tribe. And I think it would be nice to go on one of these gay excursions without the spectre of sexual activity.

Milo
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: john john on May 17, 2007, 08:01:15 AM
(http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p106/john811/homophobia2007.jpg)

I know, I posted this a few months ago, but today's the day.

I still think the photo is exceptional.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: bradINblue on May 17, 2007, 11:11:55 AM
Milo, Sandals changed their policy in 2004. They welcome same-sex couples and vowed they would not have 'gay' week or anything like that, saying same-sex couples are welcome to experience their 'romance' themed properties anytime.

Brad
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: milomorris on May 17, 2007, 12:37:16 PM
Thanks Brad. My information was pretty old.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: zth on May 17, 2007, 02:36:40 PM
IMO, the good regarding the lack of interest in gay cruises or gay bars by our younger brethern (and more and more homos) is a sign that they feel society accepts them and they don't need to hide in those 'gay' venues.

Amen to that !

 I believe that as long as gay bars exist, homophobia will be continued. I understand the need of such places, but to really solve the problem,
gays must not close themselves into "safe cages". Plus, by naming a bar as a "gay bar", it somehow makes the rest of the bars "straight bars".
Discrimination is created.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: milomorris on May 17, 2007, 04:25:39 PM
When I lived in Bermuda (1986) there were no gay bars. Everybody just went everywhere. For the most part, nobody seemed to mind guys or girls hitting on each other. Either somebody was interested, or they weren't. Sometimes a friendly bartender or waitress might let you know if you were wasting your time with a specific person.

I kinda liked that whole atmosphere.

Milo
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: fritzkep on May 17, 2007, 05:02:38 PM
Milo, Sandals changed their policy in 2004. They welcome same-sex couples and vowed they would not have 'gay' week or anything like that, saying same-sex couples are welcome to experience their 'romance' themed properties anytime.

Brad

I hadn't heard that either, Brad. Great to know! Thanks! (Not that I'd ever be able to talk Earl into going  :D )

Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: zth on May 18, 2007, 01:41:33 AM
When I lived in Bermuda (1986) there were no gay bars. Everybody just went everywhere. For the most part, nobody seemed to mind guys or girls hitting on each other. Either somebody was interested, or they weren't. Sometimes a friendly bartender or waitress might let you know if you were wasting your time with a specific person.

I kinda liked that whole atmosphere.

Milo

Really ?   :o  This is very surprizing to me...  Is it still like this in Bermuda? I mean, does this have to do with Bermuda,
or is the case that homophobia has lately spread more?
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: joycedavenport on May 18, 2007, 07:01:39 AM
An article about the Church in Scotland you might find interesting:

http://www.theherald.co.uk/news/news/display.var.1400660.0.kirk_faces_split_over_samesex_blessings.php
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: bradINblue on May 18, 2007, 11:33:17 AM
Thanks you for the link Joyce. I don't see society and fundamental Christianity (or any religion that teaches homosexuality to be a sin) under the same umbrella regarding acceptance. No amount of activisim, positive example or reasoning is likely to change these minds: The Roman Catholic Church, requires homosexuals to practice chastity in the understanding that homosexual acts are "intrinsically disordered", and "contrary to the natural law". It insists that the only appropriate expression of sexuality is within the context of marriage, which by definition is permanent, procreative, heterosexual, and monogamous. Society, as a whole, does not adopt this doctrine.

IMO, the gauge of acceptance isn't neccesarily in the eyes of the beholder but in the minds of 'us'. Many responses by forum members who live their lives in the company of a same-sex companion or who are living 'gay' and have hesitated in coming out for fear of disdain/unacceptance, have been suprised by the 'it's not a big deal and nobody really seems to care' experience. Most of those that go on and on about unequality/non-acceptance/hate-around-every-corner don't speak from actual experience but from what they assume and what certain victim-activist groups write and/or preach. I am seeing through my year interacting here (prior to BBM my head was burried firmly in the sand  :) ), people who aren't homosexual seem to want to perpetuate this and throw in their two cents, without a thread of knowing what it is really like to be homo.

Brad
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: john john on May 18, 2007, 11:58:03 AM
A 42 year old gay man here in Montreal had to leave his appartment after four years of harrassment by his neigbour. What broke the straw is that the neigbour finally attacked him, he was brought to court and was fined 500$ and had to give 3500.00$ to the plaintiff for damages.

The building is owned by the City, it changed the content in the leases to include a non-descrimination clause for all the tennants.

They also found another appartment for the poor man...
   

 
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: michaelflanagansf on May 18, 2007, 01:03:20 PM
Thanks you for the link Joyce. I don't see society and fundamental Christianity (or any religion that teaches homosexuality to be a sin) under the same umbrella regarding acceptance. No amount of activisim, positive example or reasoning is likely to change these minds: The Roman Catholic Church, requires homosexuals to practice chastity in the understanding that homosexual acts are "intrinsically disordered", and "contrary to the natural law". It insists that the only appropriate expression of sexuality is within the context of marriage, which by definition is permanent, procreative, heterosexual, and monogamous. Society, as a whole, does not adopt this doctrine.

IMO, the gauge of acceptance isn't neccesarily in the eyes of the beholder but in the minds of 'us'. Many responses by forum members who live their lives in the company of a same-sex companion or who are living 'gay' and have hesitated in coming out for fear of disdain/unacceptance, have been suprised by the 'it's not a big deal and nobody really seems to care' experience. Most of those that go on and on about unequality/non-acceptance/hate-around-every-corner don't speak from actual experience but from what they assume and what certain victim-activist groups write and/or preach. I am seeing through my year interacting here (prior to BBM my head was burried firmly in the sand  :) ), people who aren't homosexual seem to want to perpetuate this and throw in their two cents, without a thread of knowing what it is really like to be homo.

Brad

I agree that you cannot change the minds of people within religions.  However, I don't think that society does not adopt or is not influenced by these concepts.  The many states which restrict adoptions reflect the notions that gay unions are inappropriate for raising children.  Many of the people who support these notions are people who buy the 'intinsically morally disordered' line of thinking.  It also informs the line of thinking of people who are against gay marriage:

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20000214/ireland

And, of course, these individuals vote - they help defeat initiatives that would support gay marriage:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6383353/

In Michigan this had the effect of overturning all civil unions - not just gay marriage.  This affects people by making health benefits unavailable to the gay partners of public employees who previously had them:

http://www.dailypressandargus.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070510/NEWS01/705100316/1002

When I speak about hate and unacceptance, I do so from a personal standpoint.  I have been out as a gay man since 1972.  I have had multiple physical attacks on me as well as innumerable slurs.  I have had friends who were shot (and killed), I have had friends lose jobs when it became apparent that they were gay (one in the public sector and one in the private sector).  One of my friends from this site had a lover who had the navy sue him for all of his expenses for college when they found out he was gay.  When he didn't pay they went after his parents.

I know of other people here who have lost friends when they came out (a religious sort) and another whose family does not want the lover around.

That being said a lot of people don't really care too much about who you sleep with or go home to.  They really just want to get home themselves and have a good life.  I'm always surprised when people make an issue out of it - still.  But it happens - I'm still seeing it and it still happens to me.  In the last year I've had two incidents - one with a guy over 70, the other with a girl in her teens.

I'm not looking for it - I don't want it and I would be more than happy if it went away.  But it doesn't seem to have, yet.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: zth on May 18, 2007, 02:06:24 PM
Actually, people do speak with hate about homosexuals.
All my friends are straight, and all of them never miss a chance to make a hatefull comment
when the discussion comes to gays.

I am 100%  sure that they would never hurt a gay man. But still, they do make bad jokes,
and always say how disgusting and perverts gay men are. Some of them would most probably
leave a bar, if gays were arround them, just not to be near them. But this is only in words. They would never actually start
a direct fight, regrdless what they say.

I don't know what happens in other countries though.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Boris on May 18, 2007, 02:34:31 PM
Actually, people do speak with hate about homosexuals.
All my friends are straight, and all of them never miss a chance to make a hatefull comment
when the discussion comes to gays.

I am 100%  sure that they would never hurt a gay man. But still, they do make bad jokes,
and always say how disgusting and perverts gay men are. Some of them would most probably
leave a bar, if gays were arround them, just not to be near them. But this is only in words. They would never actually start
a direct fight, regrdless what they say.


How would I know that? How would any gay person know? And would it be wise for a gay man to trust people who use language like that?

I live in another country. What I can tell you is that fear is universal. The trick is to know when there is real reason to be afraid. I agree w. Brad the overplaying the victim makes us not only look weak, but it makes us weak because it makes us incapable of recognizing true threat when it's there.

Your friends may not be violent, but how would I know that they aren't?

Let's imagine an evening. I come into a bar that's full of your friends. They tell jokes like that, share their disgust and loathing about anything gay. Guess what happens: I shut up about me being gay and leave. because I can't be sure. Now... when we talk about acceptance or tolerance in communities I have faced nothing but goodwill. But I am not always surrounded by friends or in place I can feel secure.

The point isn't if your friends hit me or not. It's about real fear. I don't know your friends but i would have good reason to believe the situation to be too threatening for me to be out as a gay man. And that's what it causes: we cease to be ourselves out of fear. That's the flipside of hate when you face it.

At the same time it isn't healthy or productive to see hatred in people or places where there is none or interpret confusion or indifference as hatred. It doesn't help and in fact it may leave us to be more vulnerable.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: AHappyMan on May 18, 2007, 03:04:47 PM
Actually, people do speak with hate about homosexuals.
All my friends are straight, and all of them never miss a chance to make a hatefull comment
when the discussion comes to gays.

I am 100%  sure that they would never hurt a gay man. But still, they do make bad jokes,
and always say how disgusting and perverts gay men are. Some of them would most probably
leave a bar, if gays were arround them, just not to be near them. But this is only in words. They would never actually start
a direct fight, regrdless what they say.

I don't know what happens in other countries though.

Wow. I don't know if you're a man or woman, straight or gay.

But kiddo, I think you need a better class of friends.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: lowcountrygirl on May 19, 2007, 10:03:57 AM
Man charged in S. Carolina gay slaying
published Friday, May 18, 2007
 
"An 18-year-old has been charged with murder in the death Wednesday of a gay Greenville, S.C., man who suffered fatal injuries after being punched in the face outside a bar that was having a 'Teen Night.'

Investigators believe Sean Kennedy, 20, was targeted because of his sexual orientation, the Greenville News reported Friday. Kennedy's friends told authorities he was openly gay. "

http://www.gay.com/news/article.html?2007/05/18/4
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: zth on May 20, 2007, 10:22:30 AM
How would I know that? How would any gay person know? And would it be wise for a gay man to trust people who use language like that?

I live in another country. What I can tell you is that fear is universal. The trick is to know when there is real reason to be afraid. I agree w. Brad the overplaying the victim makes us not only look weak, but it makes us weak because it makes us incapable of recognizing true threat when it's there.

Your friends may not be violent, but how would I know that they aren't?

You are absolutely right! You cannot know wheather they will be violent or not. And I am sure it depends on which country you are,
and in which area of this country you are. At least here, noone could cause a problem in a bar or cafeteria. The manager of the place
would have to call the police. You think even violent homophobes would like to deal with the police?

Let's imagine an evening. I come into a bar that's full of your friends. They tell jokes like that, share their disgust and loathing about anything gay. Guess what happens: I shut up about me being gay and leave. because I can't be sure. Now... when we talk about acceptance or tolerance in communities I have faced nothing but goodwill. But I am not always surrounded by friends or in place I can feel secure.

Shut up and leave?  This is exactly what they would want you to do. This is IMO a very wrong reaction.
You should simply ignore them. Act as if they are not there. I understand that this could be difficult, but
it is the only way.

They learned to use fear to control you. Don't let fear control you. I don't know you, do you have straight friends?
Have you come out to them and to your family, and to your work?

As long as gays keep themselves in the closet, straights will never get used to see same-sex people holding
hands and kissing. So when they see it once in their life, they will only react homophobically. If gays come out of
the closet, and start walking in the streets, then what will the straights do? Start beating up everybody?
If they see it everywhere and every time, they will get used to it.

If gays keep hiding (either because of fear, or because of shame), we will have an endless loop. When there is a problem,
you should face it, instead of running away from it. It might take time and efford, but it will eventually be solved.

You will say : "I just want to peacefully live my life".
I will say : "You have to fight for your right".

I am not an english speaker, so I hope what I wrote made sense to you.   :-\
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: zth on May 20, 2007, 10:28:00 AM
Wow. I don't know if you're a man or woman, straight or gay.

But kiddo, I think you need a better class of friends.

Well, it doesn't really matter if I am a man or a woman, straight or gay.
I wish I had even one gay friend. Where can I find him? At least I am making my effords against homophobia, with my homophobic friends.
I even managed to take one of them to a gay club.  And he was fine with it!   8)
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: chiaros on June 03, 2007, 06:43:45 AM
http://www.guardian.co.uk/gayrights/story/0,,2093006,00.html

and in case western europeans (brits, anyway) believe they are done with all this...
http://johannhari.com/archive/article.php?id=1129
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: michaelflanagansf on June 03, 2007, 09:47:44 PM
Thanks Chairos!  That was an interesting article.  Here's one from rural Minnesota:

http://www.startribune.com/462/story/1220986.html
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: merrobot on June 05, 2007, 12:47:39 PM
You will say : "I just want to peacefully live my life".
I will say : "You have to fight for your right".

Sorry but I don't understand this statement at all.  Why should someone who is gay or lesbian have to fight for the rights that heterosexuals take for granted?  LGBT folks have been discriminated against and fighting for their rights for decades, if not centuries.   Some progress has been made but many inequalities still exist.  It is unfair to place the blame for this on sexual minorities because they somehow 'haven't tried hard enough'.

Perhaps, I've misunderstood what you meant by this :-\
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: zth on June 05, 2007, 02:10:05 PM
All I am trying to say, is that they shouldn't give up.

For example, gays have the right to get married. They have the right,
just like everybody else.

But because of homophobes, they are not allowed to do that. In order to achieve that, they will have to fight for it.
Homophobes would just love to see gays give up, because in this way, gays will never be able to get married, and that
is exactly what homophobes want.

Right now, straights are more in number than gays. Imagine if gays were more (or equal) in number than straights.
What would happen then? The majority would want gays to ba able to marry. And gays would be able to marry.

Right now, it is about majority. But what I am asking is : Is this the real majority? 10% of the population is gay?
What about the ones who are hiding? If they came out, we might realize that the percentage of gays vs straights
would change. Maybe it would be 50% gays. We will never know that, until each gay person in the world realizes that and
comes out of the closet. Do you get my point here?   :-\

You are asking me, why should gays fight for their rights?
Well, because for whatever the reason, the rights that they are supposed to have, are taken away from them.
Shouldn't they fight for them? Are you suggesting that hiding in order to live a peacefull (but dead) life is better? This would only keep
the problem instead of solving it IMO.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: merrobot on June 05, 2007, 02:53:50 PM
Right now, straights are more in number than gays. Imagine if gays were more (or equal) in number than straights.
What would happen then? The majority would want gays to ba able to marry. And gays would be able to marry.

Rights are rights regardless of numbers.  It doesn't matter if 10% or 100% or 0.001% of the population is gay - the same rights should be extended to all legal, consenting adults.  I think what you are actually getting at is, if the LGBT community is to have equality with heterosexuals then they have to have straight folk on side too.  If it's numbers that make the difference then that is the only way.  The question is then, how do we get heterosexuals to support gay rights?

Quote
You are asking me, why should gays fight for their rights?
Well, because for whatever the reason, the rights that they are supposed to have, are taken away from them.
Shouldn't they fight for them? Are you suggesting that hiding in order to live a peacefull (but dead) life is better? This would only keep the problem instead of solving it IMO.

I'm saying that they shouldn't have to fight - heterosexuals, after all, do not have to fight for their rights.  And I am most certainly not saying that people should hide in order to have a "peaceful life" although I can understand why some people may do this.  The fear that is felt by some gay men and lesbians in some parts of the world is justified and to be open about their sexuality could be dangerous, if not life-threatening as we have seen in some of the articles that have been posted here recently.    That being said, it would be interesting to see what effect an increase in coming out among LGBT "celebrities" would have.  :) 
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: zth on June 05, 2007, 03:14:39 PM
merrobot, I am not disagreeing with you.

I know that gays should not have to fight for their rights. But this is in theory.

The fact remains. In real life, homophobic society has taken away gay's rights. So what is left to do?
Fight to get those rights back.

It would be very helpful and good, if gay-friendly straights would support gays.
But, gays should do their part too. Come out of the closet. Don't feel ashamed of themselves.
Realize that there is nothing wrong with them.

Of course I am not talking about extreme situations, where gays would have serious life-threatening problems by coming out.
But in countries where nobody would harm them, the least that they could do, is to come out.
In this way, straights will see them. They will get used to them. They will interact with them. They will realize that
gays are people, and not threatening aliens!

It is a very basic step that has to be done. I keep listening to stories about
gays forever hiding, in order not to upset their parents! Or in order not to loose their friends!!!
This is unacceptable for me.  This is one of the main reasons that homophobia still exists.
And it is very easy to solve this part. When this is solved, we can go further, to the more extreme and dangerous situations
like nationalism etc etc. One step at a time, but do the first step.

So when I say "fight", I don't mean to go against a bunch of nationalists in such a coutry as posted above.
I am talking to gays who are hiding from their family and friends. Those gays can make a big difference. And they should.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: CellarDweller115 on June 15, 2007, 12:53:19 PM
Well, I just got two surprises today.

The first was pleasant.  I opened up my email to find out that for the first time ever, my company (which extends medical coverage to same sex partners of their employees) will be walking in the Pride March in NYC.    I'm looking into joining the march with them.  Not only would it be my first time in the parade, it would be my first time AT the parade.


However, this was just rained on, when one of my co-workers came up and asked if I receieved the email about "the homosexual parade" in NYC.  When I said yes, he bascially said that the company had no right to make moral decisions or stands like that, and he was surprised they would run the risk of "alienating" their straight employees.



 >:(
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: michaelflanagansf on June 15, 2007, 01:33:22 PM
However, this was just rained on, when one of my co-workers came up and asked if I receieved the email about "the homosexual parade" in NYC.  When I said yes, he bascially said that the company had no right to make moral decisions or stands like that, and he was surprised they would run the risk of "alienating" their straight employees.

 >:(

How backward, Chuck.  Given the quote from the Baptist lady in Massachusetts about gay marriage it's clear that it will only alienate certain straight employees.  The same kind who would want unmarried women who get pregnant at work fired.  Consider the source - and remember you can't alienate someone who's already an alien.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: milomorris on June 15, 2007, 02:27:42 PM
When I said yes, he bascially said that the company had no right to make moral decisions or stands like that, and he was surprised they would run the risk of "alienating" their straight employees.

Companies do not exist to make moral statements, they exist to make money...plain and simple. If the powers that be did not think that there was some down-stream benefit to participating in the Pride March, they would not be doing it. I do not know your company, or what it does/makes for the consumer or business markets, but I'd be willing to bet that there are plenty of customers and potential customer that are going to see your company's support for the gay community, and in turn think more positively about your company, and in turn possibly buy more of whatever it is you have to sell. And don't think for a moment that the company didn't consider the impact that such support might have on their straight employees. I'm sure they came to the conclusion that the number of employees who would be alienated is minimal. 

Good for them!!

Milo
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: zth on June 15, 2007, 02:30:01 PM
Well, I just got two surprises today.

The first was pleasant.  I opened up my email to find out that for the first time ever, my company (which extends medical coverage to same sex partners of their employees) will be walking in the Pride March in NYC.    I'm looking into joining the march with them.  Not only would it be my first time in the parade, it would be my first time AT the parade.

This is really GREAT. I am very happy to hear that! This company is certainly giving an example, regardless the shit that you describe below.
I will be in and at my first gay parade too on June 23rd   :)   :)  I am soooo looking forward to it !   :)

However, this was just rained on, when one of my co-workers came up and asked if I receieved the email about "the homosexual parade" in NYC.  When I said yes, he bascially said that the company had no right to make moral decisions or stands like that, and he was surprised they would run the risk of "alienating" their straight employees.

 >:(

This is a really stupid comment. This man is having issues. Hopefully he will get over them.

Mind if I ask : Did you answer him anything? Did you talk about it?
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: zth on June 15, 2007, 02:35:23 PM
Milo, I just read your post.

I agree about the money thing. But it doesn't make any difference. The result is good. It is one more step against homophobia.
And I would like to know which company this is.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: CellarDweller115 on June 15, 2007, 06:18:13 PM
Companies do not exist to make moral statements, they exist to make money...plain and simple. If the powers that be did not think that there was some down-stream benefit to participating in the Pride March, they would not be doing it. I do not know your company, or what it does/makes for the consumer or business markets, but I'd be willing to bet that there are plenty of customers and potential customer that are going to see your company's support for the gay community, and in turn think more positively about your company, and in turn possibly buy more of whatever it is you have to sell. And don't think for a moment that the company didn't consider the impact that such support might have on their straight employees. I'm sure they came to the conclusion that the number of employees who would be alienated is minimal. 

Good for them!!

Milo


I work for a bank on the East Coast.  They also offer diversity training, and I think that team member missed his class.  ;)


This is a really stupid comment. This man is having issues. Hopefully he will get over them.

Mind if I ask : Did you answer him anything? Did you talk about it?


No sooo sure about that. 

A while ago, when I worked in the branch section (I currently work in a back office position) he walked into the branch and it was "Customer appreciation Day" and my manager had a platter of brownies from the local supermarket.  This guy saw the brownies and asked if he (the manager) had baked them himself.  The manager, being silly said "No, Chuck made them." to which this guy replied "so if I eat one, I'll grow wings and fly right out of her, huh?"

I was fuming.  He said it out loud in the lobby in front of customers.  And yes, while I am out, I don't need him discussing my sexuality in an open lobby in front of strangers.

When he asked me about the parade, I commented that I don't see why the bank shouldn't march in Gay Pride, as last week, they marched in the local Puerto Rican Day Parade.  His reply was that "that's different", and he walked away.


And I would like to know which company this is.

I don't see a reason to hide it, so I'll say that I work for Sovereign Bank.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: zth on June 16, 2007, 02:33:33 AM
Thanx Chuck !!

Well, what to say. Your company is GREAT! I have never heard such a thing here.   :o

And since the whole company supports this, it makes our "friend" a minority, and this could be easily turn
against him, and he can be easily become a joke. Not to mention that you could report this to the HR department if you wanted to...

When he made that comment about growing wings in front of strangers, did you notice how those strangers reacted?
Sorry for all these detail-questions, I am just very interested in this.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: ybwc on June 16, 2007, 07:22:00 AM
Well, I just got two surprises today.

The first was pleasant.  I opened up my email to find out that for the first time ever, my company (which extends medical coverage to same sex partners of their employees) will be walking in the Pride March in NYC.    I'm looking into joining the march with them.  Not only would it be my first time in the parade, it would be my first time AT the parade.


However, this was just rained on, when one of my co-workers came up and asked if I receieved the email about "the homosexual parade" in NYC.  When I said yes, he bascially said that the company had no right to make moral decisions or stands like that, and he was surprised they would run the risk of "alienating" their straight employees.

 >:(





I can't help but wonder why the coworker came to you to "express" his dissatisfaction about the company's decision to participate in the parade. You'd think he would direct his "concern" directly to the people that made the decision.

As far as the company's rights and/or moral obligation to its employees, it shows me they are are showing some consistency of support and value. Company decisions (one way or another) yield results and clearly one of your co-workers proves this.
All the best Chuck, have a great time.  :)





edited to repair quote issue
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: CellarDweller115 on June 16, 2007, 08:53:50 AM
When he made that comment about growing wings in front of strangers, did you notice how those strangers reacted?  Sorry for all these detail-questions, I am just very interested in this.

There were some shocked expressions on people's faces, but I didn't know if it was shock at his comment, the fact that he "outed" me to them, or the fact that I was gay and they didn't know it.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: zth on June 16, 2007, 09:57:59 AM
I see...

Well, thank you for sharing this story here. I hope you are not hurt by his stupid comment now.

And have the greatest time at the parade !!!   8)

(http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g218/squirrelmasta_420/lllll.jpg)

And IMHO, this guy really needs help.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: gres on June 16, 2007, 10:26:52 AM
Chuck that colleague of yours  feels the need to reassert his own straightness...Psycologically speaking people who feel uncomfortable or feel threatened by s'thing do that a lot ( do what that colleague of yours did, i mean)...Otherwise why he  does what he does everytime he has the opportunity... And yes everyone  is entitled to his opinion but that doesn't justify his actions...It makes me wonder what is actually behind his need to do that....However i'm glad the company you work for believes in diversity regardless in what forms diversity comes and offers an active support...
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: zth on June 16, 2007, 04:15:10 PM
(http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w80/delta1135/Smilies/yeahthat.gif)

gres !!!   :o   :o  I never thought I would see you here!!   :-*   :-*

Very well said about that guy's issues   ;)
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: planetgal471 on June 18, 2007, 04:20:40 PM
When he asked me about the parade, I commented that I don't see why the bank shouldn't march in Gay Pride, as last week, they marched in the local Puerto Rican Day Parade.  His reply was that "that's different", and he walked away.

I don't even know what to say tot his. I feel like something needs to be said about it, but I would have probably launched myself at him and got fired  :D 

Still, is there not some general policy? Especially if your company is so big on diversity. Like, can you get his a$$ kicked back to training, lol? At least training to keep his mouth shut, idk. I don't work in "the real world" so I don't know what I'm talking about, but it's a good question, does it exist? Lik, under sexual harrassment legislation?

A friend if mine was recently laid off from a tenure-track professorship (or rather, he was not given tenure), at the University of St. Thomas. I don't know if anyone has heard of or followed this debate, but St. Thomas is a rather large (~20,000 students) private Catholic university up here in St. Paul. They generally claim to be very tolerant. Recently the problem arose that non-married heterosexual couples who co-chaperoned class trips were rooming together, and the schoo then disallowed mixed-sex rooming by chaperones. The heterosexual couples were outraged and pointed out the irony of same-sex couples who chaperone trips who could still room together. So the University was fit to be tied for a year in this debate over non-married couples and whether they can room together, and whether whatever ruling they made for heterosexual couples should also hold for same-sex couples. In the process, some very nasty and prejudiced attiudes became exposed, and my friend spoke up. Rumor is there was pressure form above not to bring on thie "troublemaker" full-time. If he'd had tenure, he would have been fine, but it was not a safe thing to speak up without tenure. At the same time, should he have kept it mouth shut if people were saying vile things? And further, what should the University's ruling have been. Many of us might not see a problem with any couples rooming together on trips, but a school run by the Catholic church might see it differently. Still, while gay couples are not allowed to marry under in the Catholic church, isn't it weird that they are supposedly supportive of their gay professors and yet won't let them room together on trips under any circumstances? I don't think they ever solved this debate, and I don't know what the rules are now.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: CellarDweller115 on June 18, 2007, 05:10:04 PM
geez, Jess.  That sounds like a big mess.

I would love to know if the problem was actually resolved.


As for the person I work with, I'm sure that if I said something, he could be sent back to diversity training (if he ever actually took it), but I wonder if it's actually worth it.  I'm sure I'd have to register an official complaint, and that would only create animosity in the workplace.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Lola on June 21, 2007, 01:18:57 PM
Not sure if this is already being discussed, or where?

Isaiah Washington, whose contract was not renewed for season four of Grey's Anatomy, is now saying ABC made a mistake letting him go.

"They fired the wrong guy," the actor, 43, tells his hometown paper, the Houston Chronicle. "I have to clear my name. I'll start from the beginning. I'm telling everything."

Washington came under fire last fall after getting into an altercation with co-star Patrick Dempsey, during which he allegedly referred to castmate T.R. Knight using a homophobic slur.

He later apologized, checked into rehab, met with gay leaders and released a public-service announcement decrying the use of hate speech.

Now the actor, speaking over the phone from the set of his new movie, The Least of These, tells the Chronicle that the incident with Dempsey and Knight has been misconstrued, and that Knight is to blame for promoting the notion that the derogatory term was used against him.

"That's a lie," Washington says. "I used the word during a disagreement with Patrick. I apologized for that. We shook hands and went back to work."

In January, Knight told Ellen DeGeneres on her show that hearing the slur made him decide to reveal publicly that he's gay. "I've never been called that to my face. So I think when that happened, something shifted, and it became bigger than myself."

Washington tells the Chronicle that he was wronged and may file a lawsuit. "My livelihood, my honor and dignity and my name have been so challenged," he says (The paper has no comment from Knight, and says network executives declined to comment.)

Adds Washington: "I was not fired for making homophobic slurs. I did everything I said I would do. I offered to go to counseling, to do a public service announcement. I wanted everyone to know I was remorseful."

Still, he says of his firing: "I'm not angry. I'm disappointed."
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: michaelflanagansf on June 21, 2007, 06:13:57 PM
Now the actor, speaking over the phone from the set of his new movie, The Least of These, tells the Chronicle that the incident with Dempsey and Knight has been misconstrued, and that Knight is to blame for promoting the notion that the derogatory term was used against him.

"That's a lie," Washington says. "I used the word during a disagreement with Patrick. I apologized for that. We shook hands and went back to work."

Thanks for mentioning it Lola - I hadn't seen that yet!  Boy - he's a piece of work.  What he should have been fired for is his stupidity in bringing up the whole issue all over again after it had died down.  It was not Knight but Washington who brought the whole issue up again at the Golden Globes by saying (on microphone) that he hadn't used that particularly hateful term for Knight.  He seemed very comfortable saying it as well.  You would think that if you didn't want to be tagged with the label 'homophobe' that you wouldn't use that term in front of the press and on the record.  Were we all supposed to be happy that he used it when talking to Patrick Dempsey instead of Knight - and that he felt comfortable using it again on mic?  In doing so he put himself in the rare company of people like Ann Coulter, John Rocker, and Don Imus.

ABC most certainly did not make a mistake in letting him go, any more than CBS made a mistake by firing Imus.  These are commercial ventures and they have every right to keep in mind whether or not their advertisers are going to be impacted by the people on TV shows.  If he wants to exercise his free speech he should write a book (which I'm sure he will).  Perhaps he should encourage a boycott against the show (again, fully within his rights) because he was accused of using a homophobic slur against the wrong person - but it still strikes me as being just as disingenuous as Imus alleging that other people (i.e. rappers) use bad terms regarding to gender and race so why can't he.  It's a defense you more commonly hear in elementary schoolyards ('I didn't say it to Billy, I said it to Stevie...so there).  Talk about being unable to take responsibility for your own actions.  Clearly he has learned nothing.

Again - I appreciate your posting this as I hadn't seen it yet.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Lola on June 22, 2007, 10:13:05 AM
I have such mixed feelings about the whole thing.  Greys is one of my favourite shows and his character brought so much to the show, that I am honestly sorry to see him go.

Although I can't condone his behaviour.    I have to say I did watch TR on Ellen and he did make it sound like Isaiah had used the word right to his face, which at the time shocked me.

Now we are hearing he didn't say it to his face, but said it to Patrick.

Of course this is Isaiah's version of the story, I am not sure what reason TR would have to lie.

He seems like a very sweet and genuine person.


I think Isaiah is mad, he feels his name is being slandered, he has lost his job and he is looking for a way to fight back.


And yea the "F" word just flows a bit too freely off his lips.  I also heard him saying it at the Globes, I mean how dumb was that?

How would he like to hear someone saying the "N" word, a white person, in an argument or at a function like the Globes?

It would be totally unacceptable, just as using the "F" word is unacceptable.


Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: planetgal471 on June 22, 2007, 03:36:46 PM
geez, Jess.  That sounds like a big mess.

I would love to know if the problem was actually resolved.

I was curious as well, so I went to the University of St. Thomas web site and looked up their travel policies. This is their policy:

"During such off-campus programs and activities, a faculty or staff member will not share a room with an individual of either gender with whom he or she has a romantic relationship, and to whom the faculty or staff member is not married."

They quote as their reason, the Vatican's ideal that every Catholic school should have Catholicism as "vitally present and operative" on the campus. However, I will give St. Thomas that they do say, "By its very nature as a place of teaching an learning, St. Thomas should remain open to all human experience and be ready to dialogue with and learn from any culture."

There are plus sides and down sides to this whole issue.

Point: They are treating unmarried couples equally regardless of gender.
Counterpoint: Same-sex couples are not allowed to marry in this state, so their treatment is inherantly unfair, though not through fault of University policy, but rather state law and Catholic doctrine.

There is also a huge debate about how this became an issue after this had been allowed for many years, and now it's disallowed. Some people say a heterosexual couple brought it to light, but before that a choir director and her same-sex partner and her partner's son roomed together on a choir trip, and that could be when the spotlight got put on the issue, in which case the entire thing was started by homophobia and the whole issue sits a lot worse off with me if that is the case. But that could have also been the case of one or ten homophobic parents, and not school administration, and of course the school administration would have to listen to the parents.

Interestingly, about 50% of the students at St. Thomas are not Catholic. The faculty member who leads their GLBT group said she wishes that the university would just say so if they are not welcomed, and that they get a lot more scrutiny than other student groups. I don't know if this sort of thing is common in other private, Catholic, etc. colleged throughout the country, but this is just one local example I know of so I would guess this is pretty common.

Sorry for the long post  :-[

Oh right. Here's the travel policy if you want to read it. It's only one page: http://www.stthomas.edu/hr/policies/manual/files/OffCampusTravel.pdf
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: CellarDweller115 on June 23, 2007, 11:23:15 AM
Kissing Girls Called 'Sickos,' Kicked Off Bus
Transit Official Apologizes


PORTLAND, Ore. -- A transit agency chief apologized Wednesday to the family of a lesbian teenager who was kicked off a bus when a passenger complained about her kissing another girl.

"Removing the girls from the bus was not consistent with our policy," said TriMet General Manager Fred Hansen. "I want to reiterate that we welcome all riders on our system."


http://www.wsmv.com/news/13542335/detail.html?rss=nash&psp=news
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: CellarDweller115 on June 23, 2007, 11:26:29 AM
A picture of teen love Newark couldn't face
Gay pair's photo covered up in yearbook

Saturday, June 23, 2007
BY KASI ADDISON
Star-Ledger Staff


A photograph of an East Side High School student kissing his boyfriend was blacked out of every copy of the school's yearbook by Newark school officials who decided it was inappropriate.

Andre Jackson said he never thought he would offend anyone when he bought a page in the yearbook and filled it with several photographs, including one of him kissing his boyfriend.

But Newark Superintendent of Schools Marion Bolden called the photograph "illicit" and ordered it blacked out of the $85 yearbook before it was distributed to stu dents at a banquet for graduating seniors Thursday.

"It looked provocative," she said. "If it was either heterosexual or gay, it should have been blacked out. It's how they posed for the picture."

Russell Garris, the assistant superintendent who oversees the city's high schools, brought the photograph to Bolden's attention Thursday afternoon. He was concerned the picture would be controversial and upsetting to parents, Bolden said.

There are several photos of heterosexual couples kissing in the yearbook, but the superintendent said she didn't review the entire yearbook and was presented only with Jackson's page.



http://www.nj.com/news/ledger/index.ssf?/base/news-11/118257269226310.xml&coll=1
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: CellarDweller115 on June 23, 2007, 12:51:42 PM
Gay rights group demands apology over yearbook flap
by Jonathan Casiano
Saturday June 23, 2007, 12:16 PM



The gay-rights advocacy group Garden State Equality is demanding an apology from Newark School Superintendent Marion Bolden for ordering her staff to black out a picture of a gay couple kissing before distributing yearbooks to students at East Side High School.


Calling the directive both homophobic and unlawful, Garden State Equality chair Steven Goldstein said the school should also redistribute a new batch on uncensored yearbooks at the district's expense.



http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2007/06/gay_rights_group_demands_apolo_1.html




And here is the image in question.




(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g116/CellarDweller115/medium_Andre.jpg)
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: john john on June 23, 2007, 02:21:16 PM
How pathetic.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: CellarDweller115 on June 26, 2007, 05:11:51 PM
Newark superintendent apologizes to gay student, classmates
Posted by Kasi Addison June 26, 2007 5:50PM



Newark Schools Superintendent Marion Bolden met with a gay student and his classmates today to apologize, in person, for ordering staff to black out a photo of the young man kissing his boyfriend in all copies of a yearbook.

Bolden's appearance before East Side High's senior class came one day after she issued a written apology to 18-year-old Andre Jackson and offered to re-issue the book to those students who want one.


http://blog.nj.com/ledgerupdates/2007/06/newark_superintendent_apologiz.html
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: zth on June 27, 2007, 04:41:53 AM
"It looked provocative," she said. "If it was either heterosexual or gay, it should have been blacked out. It's how they posed for the picture."

You know what ?

I just hate it when people use "gays are provocative" as an excuse of not really being homophobic!!   >:(   >:(

And what a coincidense!! It happens every single time we have a talk about : "What's your problem with gays".
The first answer is : "I have no problems with gays. They can do whatever they want, as long as they are not provocative. But they are provocative" !!!   >:(   >:(

And by "provocative", they just mean that those "provocative gays" actually show ( :o   :o   :o   :o   :o ) that they are gays !!!!!!!!!!
So in their minds, in order for a gay to be accepted, that gay has to stay in the closet, so as not to disturb their eyes !!!!!
But they would never call a straight provocative, for showing he is straight! That's the "normal", that's the "default" state!!

I get so angry with this. People are stupid, STUPID !!!!   >:(   >:(   STUPID AND SOOOOO JEALOUS !!!
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: michaelflanagansf on July 04, 2007, 11:23:41 PM
Don't Look Gay: Why American Men Are Afraid of Intimacy with Each Other

Why do adolescent boys often leave empty seats between each other when they go to the movies? It's a product of the culture of male homophobia in America which pushes men to avoid intimacy and gay stereotypes.

For many centuries, various societies in various ways have differentiated between same-sex and different-sex activity. But the word “gay” and, according to many historians, even the very notion of sexual orientation on which it’s based, are of comparatively recent vintage. “Heterosexual” and homosexual” were coined, initially in German, less than a century and a half ago, a simple fact that should give pause to those who speak as if everyone everywhere has always been subject to inborn biological imperatives directing their sexual attention.

http://www.alternet.org/sex/55816/?page=2
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: jpq716 on July 05, 2007, 09:03:33 AM
Is society really as accepting as it claims? We will discover later this month when I Now Pronounce You Chuck and Larry opens in the theaters on July 20th. Here's the movie trailer:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K98eT6j3XUw

I don't know about you, but The Dreyfus Affair it ain't, to me.

It is now over eighteen months since Brokeback Mountain sent a dagger-thrust straight to the heart of homophobic mainstream Amerika, and I believe that the film did more than any other element in contemporary Amerikan culture to defang the gay-baiting that defined the (totally fraudulent) Presidential Election of 2004. Well, it's been eighteen months --- a hell of a long time for Amerikan homophobia to lay flat on its back, knocked-out cold! --- and we are due for the anti-Brokeback reaction. Of course, in the wake of Brokeback Mountain, it is unwise to attack gay people directly, so what you do is to ridicule the gay movement --- slyly --- as a political-financial scam.  By making the Amerikan sheeple suspicious of the motives and aims of gay people, you undermine their post-Brokeback integrity and credibility. And once the sheeple are sufficiently skeptical about the integrity and credibility of gay people, then --- when the time is right --- you can resurrect the old canards against them. And who knows?, maybe this time the homophobic movement might be so strong that you can get the pink triangles sewed on the clothes of gay people, cattle-prod them onto boxcars going to death camps, and then see them float away in the air from the tops of the chimneys. Hope springs eternal, as they say...

I think that the time is right for a comedy --- not a tragedy, but a sophisticated comedy! --- that exposes homophobia as the pathetic mess that it is. Frankly, such a comedy should have come out in the summer of 2006, as the left-handed jab to the face that followed the Brokeback punch to the chest. But better later than never (although better never late).

Sophisticated ridicule can keep homophobic mainstream Amerika at bay, as it kept religious fundamentalism at bay for half a century following the Scopes Monkey Trial. But that, I fear, is the best that we can do at the present time, the Amerikan soul being what it is. In my heart, I know that homophobic mainstream Amerika will never accept gay people. It would rather die first. And it will...
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: ACompadre on July 05, 2007, 11:09:52 AM
America.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Lola on July 05, 2007, 01:49:42 PM
http://abcnews.go.com/Primetime/Story?id=3337841&page=1

Is anyone following this story?  :(
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: 271horses on July 06, 2007, 09:54:19 PM
  By making the Amerikan sheeple suspicious of the motives and aims of gay people, you undermine their post-Brokeback integrity and credibility. And once the sheeple are sufficiently skeptical about the integrity and credibility of gay people, then --- when the time is right --- you can resurrect the old canards against them. And who knows?, maybe this time the homophobic movement might be so strong that you can get the pink triangles sewed on the clothes of gay people, cattle-prod them onto boxcars going to death camps, and then see them float away in the air from the tops of the chimneys. Hope springs eternal, as they say...

Sophisticated ridicule can keep homophobic mainstream Amerika at bay, as it kept religious fundamentalism at bay for half a century following the Scopes Monkey Trial. But that, I fear, is the best that we can do at the present time, theAmerikan soul being what it is. In my heart, I know that homophobic mainstream Amerika will never accept gay people. It would rather die first. And it will...


Are these things you want to solve, or do you just want to vent?

If it's the former, it pays to assess the situation, determine what it IS, what it is NOT, and what your options are to change it, then take the course deemed most effective.

If it's the latter scenario, by all means, compare America with totalitarian regimes ("Amerika"), use as much hyperbole as possible to up the drama factor till your enemies are all-powerful and you are a helpless pawn swimmingly ineffectively against a cruel and indifferent tide, what's the use, let's just give up, huh?

In the past 20 years, we have seen the dominant political bent in this country swing from right to left, back to right, and back to left.  We have seen political polarization swell and recede, endured terrorist attacks, foreigh and domestic in origin, war, and an uncertain election, and at no time was there ever even a HINT that law and order would not endure, let alone any sign of returning to the political unrest of the 1960's, the Depression Years, or the Civil War.

At the height of the AIDS epidemic, the odd mutterings about quarantining victims were rapidly quashed (under a Republican Administration, BTW).  That Administration may have been slow to respond to the epidemic, but no slower than the gay community was to listen to common sense calls to change its high-risk behavior.  No one was shipped to concentration camps, no one was shoved in gas ovens.

After September 11, there were isolated incidents of anti-Muslim predjudice.  No mosques were burned, there were no mass roundups and deportations.  After 3000 Americans were murdered by Muslim extremeists, Americans ran out and bought the Koran to better understand their attackers, genuinely wanting to know what made them do it.

Someone is bound to argue now, what about Iraq? This ain't a thread for discussing the War, but whatever your feelings on it, or on the President that led us into it, by LAW, he and his Administration will be history in less than a year and a half, and I sure as Hell dont anticipate an Army coup assisting him in staying beyond his contractual obligation.  That's because this a civilized country.

Unlike this one:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/7/22/102249/246

And what is civilization but humanity overcoming its natural tendency to baseness and destruction to favor its equally natural tendency to overcome its base nature and its desire to build something of value?  You invoke religious fundamentalism (and here we're talking evalngelical Christianity) to illustrate the argument that the US is becoming a more dangerous, intolerant place for gays, and you don't need to give an example, though I surely could find one, of some out-there preacher claiming that righteousness cannot exist in a country where 2 men are free to marry.  But the other side of that coin is gays claiming they can never truly be free in a country where religious types can say such things.  well, they will go on saying them, and gays will go right on getting closer and closer to legal marriage, and each side will decry the other, and use the other to generate fundraising bucks, and they will continue to coexist, because that is civilization: not freedom from ever hearing a contrary word or from being offended, but freedom to mind your own business.

Anyone who thinks this isn't progress can think back 20 years when it looked like AIDS would eventually claim any gay man who wasn't celibate and the idea of same-sex marriage was just insane, to gay men just as much as fundamentalist preacher men.  THAT is looking at things as they are and making a rational assessment.  Hyberbole just puts out a lot of noise that distorts the true  picture.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: CellarDweller115 on July 07, 2007, 05:04:08 PM
Man sues over gay marriage on bar exam

BOSTON, MASSACHUSETTS -- A man said he failed the Massachusetts bar exam because he refused to answer a question about gay marriage, and claims in a federal lawsuit that the test violated his rights and targeted his religious beliefs.

The suit also challenges the constitutionality of same-sex marriage, which was legalized in Massachusetts in 2003.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-gay_natjul07,1,2941392.story?track=rss



http://www.ktre.com/Global/story.asp?S=6757324
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: michaelflanagansf on July 08, 2007, 05:05:24 PM
Two somewhat related stories:

Hungarian gov't member publicly announces he is gay

Gábor Szetey, a member of Hungary's Socialist Party, became the first governing politician in Hungary to publicly come out as being gay when he opened the "12th Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgendered Film and Cultural Festival" in Budapest Thursday.

Szetey said in his speech: "My name is Gábor Szetey. I am the personnel state secretary of the government of the Republic of Hungary. I believe in God, love, freedom and equality. I am Hungarian and European. I am an economist and a personnel leader. I am a partner, a friend, sometimes an opponent. And I am gay."

http://www.caboodle.hu/nc/news/news_archive/single_page/article/11/hungarian_go-2/?cHash=74384ebf01

Right-wing protesters in Hungary throw eggs, smoke bombs at gay rights marchers

BUDAPEST, Hungary: Several hundred skinheads and right-wing activists threw rotten eggs and smoke bombs at people participating in a gay rights parade in Hungary's capital Saturday.

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/07/07/europe/EU-GEN-Hungary-Gay-March.php
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: planetgal471 on July 12, 2007, 09:28:38 PM
Bill O'Reilly Seeks Gay Segregation

http://www.queerty.com/news/bill-orelly-seeks-gay-segregation-20070712/

Now that he’s blown the lid off lesbian gangs, Fox News’ Bill O’Reilly took aim at the Padres‘ [San Diego's professional baseball team] recent “gay pride” night.

In addition to inviting the homos, the San Diego-based baseballers promised free hats to children under 14, thus perpetuating the gay agenda: world domination. Describing the night as “social engineering,” O’Reilly slammed the Padres’ inclusion, which he described as “insensitive and dumb”. Would O’Reilly prefer queer concentration camps? Probably.

The Cup of Joe sent us over these screen caps. We’re waiting on video, but, to be honest, we’re not sure we want to hear it - reading the words makes us sick enough.


Fox news "Talking Points" screencaps say:
-"CULTURAL STRIKEOUT! Thousands of gay adults co-mingled with straight families."
-"CULTURAL STRIKEOUT! S-P's will applaud the mixing of gays and kids. Clear-thinking people will know it's completely inappropriate."
-"CULTURAL STRIKEOUT! The Padres may think they were being inclusive and politically correct. But they were ebing insensitive and dumb."

*vomits all over keyboard* Dammit, now I gotta clean this up.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: michaelflanagansf on July 13, 2007, 02:20:42 AM
Just make sure your don't use Bill's loofah Jess...you never know where it's been....

Here's one on a lovely tolerant family who kicked out their child when he was 16:

Kicked out, gay teenager finds role

July 12, 2007

BY DESIREE COOPER

FREE PRESS COLUMNIST

At 47, sometimes I still wonder who I am. But 20-year-old Brandon Kneefel already is certain about who he is -- and he's paid a heavy price for it.

"I was 14 when my parents asked me if I was gay," said Kneefel, who was born in Dearborn and raised in Livonia. "I said that I was, and they immediately wanted to get me counseling."

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070712/COL03/707120362/1081
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Lola on July 20, 2007, 12:23:41 PM
Glad you got this off your chest Shemar!  :D


(http://www.usmagazine.com/files/shemar_blog.jpg)

Shemar Moore wants to set the record straight. The Criminal Minds actor insists he’s not gay— not that there's anything wrong with that.

After The National Enquirer ran shots of the former soap stud, 37, in the buff on a nude "gay beach" in Maui, Moore explained to reporters yesterday, "I went on vacation with two girlfriends of mine who, interestingly enough, got cut out of the pictures. We found a nude beach that, as far as I know, was a unisex beach…

"I had two hot chicks with me who wanted to go skinny dipping,” he went on. “Thank God the water was fairly warm!"

The currently single star continued, "I’ll say it right now: I’m not gay. I love women. Women are God’s greatest creation. But I have no problem with people who are gay."
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: michaelflanagansf on July 20, 2007, 12:32:59 PM
On behalf of gay men everywhere I would like to invite Shemar Moore to please feel free to come to gay nude beaches anytime he wants and we will certainly not assume anything about him.

He's actually a very cool guy - I saw him on Ellen last year - he's originally from Berkeley (I think his folks were a bit on the hippie side.... ;)).
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Lola on July 20, 2007, 12:36:23 PM
I have had a crush on him since The Young and the Restless.

Here are pics of him on the beach nude, enter at own risk (NOT SAFE FOR THE WORK PLACE)

http://perezhilton.com/?p=1843#more-1843
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: CellarDweller115 on July 31, 2007, 07:11:52 AM
UPS changes policy, gives benefits to partners of gay N.J. workers

By Geoff Mulvihill, Associated Press


MOUNT LAUREL, N.J. — After persuasion from New Jersey's governor and attorney general, UPS Inc. said Monday that it would extend health insurance benefits to the civil union partners of gay employees in New Jersey covered by a union contract.

The policy change has to do with New Jersey's civil unions law, which took effect in February, and seeks to give gay couples the same rights in the state as married couples.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-07-30-ups-civil-unions_N.htm?csp=34

Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: john john on July 31, 2007, 08:37:56 AM
I have had a crush on him since The Young and the Restless.

Here are pics of him on the beach nude, enter at own risk (NOT SAFE FOR THE WORK PLACE)

http://perezhilton.com/?p=1843#more-1843

Geez, how gorgeous can a man be?!!!
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: quithammerin on July 31, 2007, 02:08:29 PM
I'm spending another of my vacation days on this forum - for the last time, I swear - and I've just read thought this thread from page 1.  It's a painful and complex subject, there are many opposing but valid views expressed here. 

I appreciated the support given to the person who wanted to discuss feeling uncomfortable in the presence of a same-sex couple kissing.  Being a generally inept and anxious person socially, as a straight person in the presence of gay couples (not individuals) I sometimes think I might be like Basil Fawltey in the "They're Germans, don't mention the war!" episode.  It's not any GLBTetc person's responsibility to put me at ease socially, but I must say I have appreciated those who find it in themselves to do so.

Whether it's my social gaffes or someone else's violent threats, I can't help but wonder if it all comes down to how safe person feels as a GLBT(etc) person in whatever environment.  I'm a classical music fan, but, now that we're into self-disclosure, once I got tears in my eyes listening to a rendition of a Celine Dion song.  The police force chorus was singing as guests at our church, because their director was our choir director. (The event didn't have anyting to do with sexual orientation, I'm just saying) The police officers were singing "The Prayer" and it was somehow moving to see them, in their uniforms, singing:

We hope each soul will find
Another soul to love
Let this be our prayer
Let this be our prayer
Just like every child
Just like every child

Need to find a place,
guide us with your grace
Give us faith so we'll be safe

May it be so.......
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Jeff Wrangler on July 31, 2007, 04:46:03 PM
I have had a crush on him since The Young and the Restless.

Here are pics of him on the beach nude, enter at own risk (NOT SAFE FOR THE WORK PLACE)

http://perezhilton.com/?p=1843#more-1843

Holy Cow!  :o  :o  :o
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: fritzkep on July 31, 2007, 04:52:18 PM
^^^^^And that ain't no bull!

Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: milomorris on July 31, 2007, 07:25:54 PM
I have had a crush on him since The Young and the Restless.

Here are pics of him on the beach nude, enter at own risk (NOT SAFE FOR THE WORK PLACE)

http://perezhilton.com/?p=1843#more-1843

These are hot pictures, and I can't say I'm sorry they were taken   :o

But this is an example of the paparazzi gone too far.

Now I'm gonna shut up and head to the gym  :)

Milo
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: zth on August 01, 2007, 12:59:18 AM
I'm spending another of my vacation days on this forum - for the last time, I swear - and I've just read thought this thread from page 1.  It's a painful and complex subject, there are many opposing but valid views expressed here. 

I appreciated the support given to the person who wanted to discuss feeling uncomfortable in the presence of a same-sex couple kissing.  Being a generally inept and anxious person socially, as a straight person in the presence of gay couples (not individuals) I sometimes think I might be like Basil Fawltey in the "They're Germans, don't mention the war!" episode.  It's not any GLBTetc person's responsibility to put me at ease socially, but I must say I have appreciated those who find it in themselves to do so.

Whether it's my social gaffes or someone else's violent threats, I can't help but wonder if it all comes down to how safe person feels as a GLBT(etc) person in whatever environment.  I'm a classical music fan, but, now that we're into self-disclosure, once I got tears in my eyes listening to a rendition of a Celine Dion song.  The police force chorus was singing as guests at our church, because their director was our choir director. (The event didn't have anyting to do with sexual orientation, I'm just saying) The police officers were singing "The Prayer" and it was somehow moving to see them, in their uniforms, singing:

Hi quithammerin !

With my not-very-high-level-english, I am not sure about what I understood from that post (I just always feel stupid when I don't understand a post   :-\  ).
In any case, I will be happy to discuss that subject again. Of course there were a lot of misunderstandings back then, but I hope we solved them..
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Roco on August 01, 2007, 05:06:03 AM
Thanks Lyle,

I agree with everything you've said.

Some very astute observations!

Carry on.

 ;)
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: gattaca on August 08, 2007, 08:01:29 PM
I'm not sure where to put this one, but I thought it interesting that Damon had 2nd thoughts about not doing BBM...

http://www.insidesocal.com/outinhollywood/2007/08/matt_damon_on_the_gay_cowboy_f.html

"In the new issue of Entertainment Weekly, Damon confesses it is a regret of his:
“... Years ago, [Good Will Hunting director] Gus Van Sant wanted to do it with me and Joaquin Phoenix. But I was on my way to Italy to do "The Talented Mr. Ripley" and then "All the Pretty Horses." And Gus wanted to do "Brokeback" right after. And I was like, ‘Gus, I’m going to do a gay movie, then a cowboy movie. I can’t follow it up with a gay-cowboy movie!”[Laughs]"

Vincent


Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: quithammerin on August 08, 2007, 09:44:17 PM
[Hi quithammerin !

With my not-very-high-level-english, I am not sure about what I understood from that post (I just always feel stupid when I don't understand a post   :-\  ).
In any case, I will be happy to discuss that subject again. Of course there were a lot of misunderstandings back then, but I hope we solved them..


Thanks for the reply, zth, I just read my post again - it's really not very clear at all.  I don't think you're the one who should feel stupid not understanding it.  I was not making much sense - it's not your English that 's the problem, it's mine!

I'll  try to make some more sense now:  I do think the thread got past the misunderstandings....all the different perspectives were important, in my opinion.  What I got from it is that gay men (that's mostly who was commenting about that topic) need a place to feel safe to be themselves, where they don't have to feel afraid if "someone knows"  (as Ennis said).   But feeling safe includes: safe from anti-gay violence, safe from unspoken hostility, safe from being humiliated by a group, safe from rejection, safe from unwanted sexual advances, safe from lots of things.  So it's not a simple matter to create such a place for everyone just based on sexual orientation.  I guess I concluded that the key is to start with a mutual agreement to that everyone should be respected and protected. 

And, after I made the post, I had a conversation (in RL) that made me realize that not everyone is really interested in safety, either; some people are looking for challenge and excitement, even danger.

So now my conclusion is: we're all different.  And that's something to celebrate. (Hope that makes some sense.)

PS The reason I read through the thread was to find out more about what makes a place feel "accepting"  to people. I'm not sure that was discussed that much. I'd be interested  in more discussion along those lines from a positive point of view.  I should also say thanks for accepting my not-very-high-level attempt to write my thoughts!
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: zth on August 10, 2007, 12:51:16 AM
OK, I've been trying to reply here for the last 2 days, with no luck!   >:(

I guess this time it works.

So... About the safety thing.

Actually, I am not sure about what you mean with creating a safe place (for anyone).
Bacause if you mean something like the gay bars, then I disagree. (because this is like running away from the problem, instead of solving it).
But if you mean trying to turn this place (this world) into a safe place, then I understand it.

Now to give you my opinion about "what makes a place feel accepting to people".
I think, that for a person not to feel accepted somewhere, it is because he/she actually hasn't accepted him/her self.
So I think this whole thing starts from our own selfs. From our own lack of self confidence.

And to talk specificly about gays, IMO, a gay man should not care "if someone knows". Should ignore the unspoken hostility.
Ignore being humiliated by a group. OK, violence cannot be ignored, but the others can be ignored, and that would be
a great step against homophobia.

Well, unfortunately I will be leaving for vacation tonight, and I will be back in one week.
I hope we can continue our converstation.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Lola on August 12, 2007, 08:36:31 PM
http://www.veteransforcommonsense.org/index.cfm/Page/Article/ID/8228

Church Cancels Gulf War Veteran's Funeral.......because he is gay.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: john john on August 12, 2007, 09:07:16 PM
http://www.veteransforcommonsense.org/index.cfm/Page/Article/ID/8228

Church Cancels Gulf War Veteran's Funeral.......because he is gay.

The more I read stuff like this the more I have hope that religion will finally drop off the planet.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: gattaca on August 13, 2007, 04:28:08 PM
Yeah, that's organized religion at its best. I sent them a "WWJD" message noting that they missed an wonderful pportunity to reach out to all those gay "sinners"they so detest and that their  judgement day before god would be interesting.   Vincent
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Roco on August 14, 2007, 07:43:12 AM
If you think the success of BROKEBACK changed anything, check this out!

 http://www.afterelton.com/movies/2007/8/gradingthemajors?page=0%2C0
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: bradINblue on August 14, 2007, 09:35:37 PM
http://www.oregonlive.com/news/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/news/1187061942116670.xml&coll=7

Just an example of how far we have come since 2004. IMO, society is getting more accepting everyday, even within the conforms of Christian religion.

Brad
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Lola on August 17, 2007, 02:54:00 PM
Boys are kissing on soaps, this can't be a bad thing!
 :-*

http://www.afterelton.com/blog/brianjuergens/preview-to-a-kiss-as-the-world-turns?comment=25487
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: quithammerin on August 17, 2007, 08:53:37 PM
So... About the safety thing.

Actually, I am not sure about what you mean with creating a safe place (for anyone).
Bacause if you mean something like the gay bars, then I disagree. (because this is like running away from the problem, instead of solving it).
But if you mean trying to turn this place (this world) into a safe place, then I understand it.

Now to give you my opinion about "what makes a place feel accepting to people".
I think, that for a person not to feel accepted somewhere, it is because he/she actually hasn't accepted him/her self.
So I think this whole thing starts from our own selfs. From our own lack of self confidence.

And to talk specificly about gays, IMO, a gay man should not care "if someone knows". Should ignore the unspoken hostility.
Ignore being humiliated by a group. OK, violence cannot be ignored, but the others can be ignored, and that would be
a great step against homophobia.

Well, unfortunately I will be leaving for vacation tonight, and I will be back in one week.
I hope we can continue our converstation.


Hi, zth, I hope you had a good holiday, and I hope it's ok if we continue this conversation here.

I've been thinking about this "acceptance"  idea.....I guess I can't make anyone accept themselves, but I do hope to help make a world in which more people - ideally everyone - accepts themselves. Thats mostly because it's been a struggle for me to accept myself, when I think about it.   It's made a huge difference to me that people on this forum have accepted me, for example.  But I realize after thinking about your post that if someone doesn't accept themselves, feels unacceptable in some way in a situation, they will always feel outside things in that situation.  And there may be nothing I can do about that.

There are some of the obvious things - violence and legal and economic discrimination - that can be addressed through political means.

However, if there is something that can be done to make people really feel accepted......what is it?  What has made people feel accepted in places in their lives?  That's my question. 
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: bradINblue on August 17, 2007, 09:03:08 PM
Quote
However, if there is something that can be done to make people really feel accepted......what is it?

For us to stop worrying about how we think other people feel about us. Most, these days, don't give a rats ass. We need to accept that, which is a huge step in accepting us. Flee the 'gay' venues and be ourselves on Main Street USA (and I don't mean prancing about in jock straps and in drag). I think we spend too much time on other people when we should be spending that precious time on ourselves.

Brad
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: michaelflanagansf on August 18, 2007, 12:03:42 AM
However, if there is something that can be done to make people really feel accepted......what is it?  What has made people feel accepted in places in their lives?  That's my question. 

I know from our communications that you are a kind and thoughtful person.  Your being the positive person you  are is one of the best ways you can make things better.  Just like you would probably object if someone said something unkind or untoward about a person who was overweight or an older person who was a little slower in a queue , you would object to someone saying something impolite or cruel about a gay person.

While I was in Canada I didn't have a single incident that was even slightly untoward.  People were absolutely wonderful - in Vernon, in Richmond, in Courtney, in Victoria - in all these smaller places people were absolutely lovely.  So whatever you are doing up there continue to do it.  You already are doing just fine.

You know how they say you should do random acts of kindness?  I really think that is the key - we all need to be nice to one another regardless of what we are on the outside.  It's what's inside that matters, after all.  I try to do this in my job and (when I remember) on the street.

I'm sorry to be vague, but I really think that if we just treat others as we would want to be treated that the battle is won.  And sometimes we just have to remind one another of that.  Making a safe place for gay people is not any different from making a safe place for the elderly or the disabled or people with children - treat people kindly and if you see something that is improper report it - that's what people like Brad take care of for a living and we can be glad they're there to handle such things.

I hope to get to meet you sometime - I had two people say nice things about you while I was in your lovely country.  ;)
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: ChrisW on August 18, 2007, 05:37:26 PM
Hello Michael and QH,
We just had two respectable married men round to dinner, no-one batted an eyelid, even our house guest, who i thought might be a bit conservative.
They got married - to each other, of course -  in June this year in the UK.
It's all about respect, and in the UK it seems to pretty much a non-issue in my neck of the woods.
I am pretty amazed about how fast this has all become something no-one seems concerned about over here.
The Italian half of the couple didn't automatically become a UK national, but apparently tbat would also be true of M+F couples.

Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: quithammerin on August 19, 2007, 02:56:02 PM
Goodness, Michael, I'm flattered by the things you said. I only hope I  - and my country - could live up to all that.

But you've also given us a very useful guideline to live up to:

You know how they say you should do random acts of kindness?  I really think that is the key - we all need to be nice to one another regardless of what we are on the outside.  It's what's inside that matters, after all.  I try to do this in my job and (when I remember) on the street.

I'm sorry to be vague, but I really think that if we just treat others as we would want to be treated that the battle is won.  And sometimes we just have to remind one another of that.  Making a safe place for gay people is not any different from making a safe place for the elderly or the disabled or people with children - treat people kindly and if you see something that is improper report it - that's what people like Brad take care of for a living and we can be glad they're there to handle such things.



I should point out though, that people do say that Canadians may be just as prejudiced as Americans.  The Canadians tend more to smile and nod, rather than argue. Statistics could be found, perhaps to show this or not; I'm not so sure, since we've elected gay politicians and politicians who support same-sex marriage, and there's a secret ballot...  I was recently discussing the US vs Canada with a gay guy, who is not connected with this forum as far as I know.  He  studied in the States for many years before coming back to Canada,  and said he found that the more combative style in the US does lead people to take to more entrenched positions....while the Canadian "smile and nod" approach can be seen to be dishonest, this guy felt that it does make more room for actual mutual understanding at the end of the day. 

As a regular, flawed, Canadian, I try to struggle through the French Speakers thread now and then, and I ran into a story there; much of it lost to my memory now, I'm afraid, and I'm unable to check back for accuracy without reading through the whole thread, and of course my French is poor enough for me to have got the whole thing wrong;    Anyway, the formum member went on a trip  to the Alberta  BBM filming sites last summer, and struck up a conversation with the waitress in, I think, the site of Cassie's bar.  The waitress said there had been "Brokeback"  tourists through there a fair bit, some of them gay men, and, she confided to the forum member, she could report that they were completely normal people, "just like you and me".   

[If anyone reading this is in a position to present a better translation of that story, please do]

Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: michaelflanagansf on August 19, 2007, 04:59:41 PM
As a regular, flawed, Canadian, I try to struggle through the French Speakers thread now and then, and I ran into a story there; much of it lost to my memory now, I'm afraid, and I'm unable to check back for accuracy without reading through the whole thread, and of course my French is poor enough for me to have got the whole thing wrong;    Anyway, the forum member went on a trip  to the Alberta  BBM filming sites last summer, and struck up a conversation with the waitress in, I think, the site of Cassie's bar.  The waitress said there had been "Brokeback"  tourists through there a fair bit, some of them gay men, and, she confided to the forum member, she could report that they were completely normal people, "just like you and me".   

Thanks for this QH!  And whenever anyone says 'normal just like you and me' to me, I just figure the moon has gone into an eclipse or something like that.  ;) :D  But thanks so much for your story - it's exactly what I meant.  If you're nice to other people half the battle is won.  And though Canadians may just smile and nod instead of arguing, at least that gives them the opportunity to meet and understand other people a bit more - so I agree with the guy you were talking to.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: michaelflanagansf on August 19, 2007, 05:10:41 PM
Hello Michael and QH,
We just had two respectable married men round to dinner, no-one batted an eyelid, even our house guest, who i thought might be a bit conservative.
They got married - to each other, of course -  in June this year in the UK.
It's all about respect, and in the UK it seems to pretty much a non-issue in my neck of the woods.
I am pretty amazed about how fast this has all become something no-one seems concerned about over here.
The Italian half of the couple didn't automatically become a UK national, but apparently tbat would also be true of M+F couples.

It's quite interesting how soon it becomes a non-issue.  Among the Canadians I've talked to I often hear 'oh Gay Marriage - why is that a problem there?'.  I was talking with one of my U.K. friends from the forum recently and he seemed to be of the impression that it has something to do with the level to which religion is considered part of the national culture over here.  Since there were wars of religion in Europe from the Crusades through the French Wars of Religion and the Thirty Years war people over there may be a little more circumspect in assuming that god is on their side and that the devil is on the other guy's side (whether or not the other guy is gay).

And who knows - if you can get Ian Paisley and Gerry Adams sitting at a table together it seems like pretty much anything can be possible, eh?  ;) :D
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: ChrisW on August 20, 2007, 01:46:21 AM
As a regular, flawed, Canadian, I try to struggle through the French Speakers thread now and then, and I ran into a story there; much of it lost to my memory now, I'm afraid, and I'm unable to check back for accuracy without reading through the whole thread, and of course my French is poor enough for me to have got the whole thing wrong;    Anyway, the forum member went on a trip  to the Alberta  BBM filming sites last summer, and struck up a conversation with the waitress in, I think, the site of Cassie's bar.  The waitress said there had been "Brokeback"  tourists through there a fair bit, some of them gay men, and, she confided to the forum member, she could report that they were completely normal people, "just like you and me".   

Thanks for this QH!  And whenever anyone says 'normal just like you and me' to me, I just figure the moon has gone into an eclipse or something like that.  ;) :D  But thanks so much for your story - it's exactly what I meant.  If you're nice to other people half the battle is won.  And though Canadians may just smile and nod instead of arguing, at least that gives them the opportunity to meet and understand other people a bit more - so I agree with the guy you were talking to.
isn't that great, normal people, and so they are :) :) :) - and so are my respectable married friends, and you know, that is what they want more than anything, to be just normal people. One of these men told me very seriously about how he had been doing a lot of research on his family history (they are all German Jewish by descent, and I think his new husband is probably Italian Jewish by descent) and I loved that, a normal family person just like the rest of us. They were both wearing their wedding rings. It's got to be the way forward.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: zth on August 23, 2007, 12:40:45 PM
Hi guys!

I would like to say something about "efeminate gays".

Is this the right place to do so? Or is there a more apropriate thread for that?
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: milomorris on August 23, 2007, 01:01:38 PM
Hi guys!

I would like to say something about "efeminate gays".

Is this the right place to do so? Or is there a more apropriate thread for that?

It might make more sense to post in the "Masculine & gay--mutually exclusive?" thread.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: zth on August 23, 2007, 02:51:59 PM
Thank you Milo !

I will do that !   :)
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: ChrisW on August 24, 2007, 04:37:35 AM
but you may get eaten alive in that thread  :D ;D
-don't say you weren't warned...
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: zth on August 24, 2007, 06:02:57 AM
I will be very careful, thanx !   ;D

Actually, I'm gonna read the whole thread first, before I post anything.   ;)
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: JohnJay on August 26, 2007, 10:21:22 AM
While this letter to the editor by Sharon Underwood was written back in April 2000, it has recently come to light again and is making the rounds on many blogs in the past few days.  What is sad is that in some respects, not much has changed since then.

http://www.familypride.org/blog/2007/08/angry-mother-defends-gay-son.html

(Also, another great letter... and a great piece of satire...  "a letter to Dr.Laura", well worth a read, appears in the comments section of that page if you scroll down.)
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: milomorris on August 27, 2007, 11:39:42 AM
http://www.familypride.org/blog/2007/08/angry-mother-defends-gay-son.html

Thank you for posting this. I was particularly encouraged by the writer's 83 year old father who admitted that he had fought in WWII alongside homosexual men.

I was also glad to see those who responded with posts that deconstructed some of the "biblical" fallacies regarding homosexuality. 

Milo
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Lola on September 04, 2007, 01:03:38 PM
CNN) -- The Gay & Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation (GLAAD) Tuesday denounced comedian Jerry Lewis' use of the word "fag" on Lewis' annual Labor Day Telethon for Muscular Dystrophy and called on him to apologize.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/SHOWBIZ/TV/09/04/jerrylewis.telethon/index.html#cnnSTCText
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: quithammerin on September 12, 2007, 09:22:02 PM
Some career advice from the Globe and Mail, answering the question "A gay colleague casually asked if I'd like to go out for drinks one night after work. It didn't seem flirtatious, but I worry that if it were to turn into a come-on, it would sour our relationship at work. How do I handle this without seeming homophobic?

and the answer:

How would you handle this if a heterosexual member of the opposite sex invited you out for drinks one night after work?.....Be aware of the potential challenges but don't blow this out of proportion. If your colleague continues to make unwelcome invitations after you've clearly communicated your position, that would constitute sexual harassment, and you should speak with your supervisor, manager and/or human resources department. Employers should have sound corporate harassment policies in effect and take an active role in maintaining a working environment that is free of harassment.

Here's the whole column:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20070912.CAMENTOR12/TPStory/Business
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: ChrisW on September 13, 2007, 01:09:14 AM
Some career advice from the Globe and Mail, answering the question "A gay colleague casually asked if I'd like to go out for drinks one night after work. It didn't seem flirtatious, but I worry that if it were to turn into a come-on, it would sour our relationship at work. How do I handle this without seeming homophobic?

and the answer:

How would you handle this if a heterosexual member of the opposite sex invited you out for drinks one night after work?.....Be aware of the potential challenges but don't blow this out of proportion. If your colleague continues to make unwelcome invitations after you've clearly communicated your position, that would constitute sexual harassment, and you should speak with your supervisor, manager and/or human resources department. Employers should have sound corporate harassment policies in effect and take an active role in maintaining a working environment that is free of harassment.

Here's the whole column:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20070912.CAMENTOR12/TPStory/Business
- interesting, highlights the whole social problem and part of why gay men and straight women have lots in common. My job has always required me to do what you might call social networking - i.e. making friends with men after work. I have never made any kind of advance, and my oldest friend (who is a sort-of lesbian) once said I am the least flirtatious person she knows. Not the most antisocial, not the the rudest, just the least flirtatious. But that's because I could not have made any progress in my work if I hadn't figured that one out thirty years ago.
OK, so if I were a gay man - I would presumably have had to learn something similar, or face social and professional isolation.
And since we all seem to know a few Ennises - that's what can happen.
I see, now, that one of the things I can do is to try to bridge that gap in my workplace.

p.s. that's a reason for gay men to wear wedding-type  rings, the oldest way in the book to make it clear your lack of evil intent  >:D
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: michaelflanagansf on September 13, 2007, 03:34:15 AM
p.s. that's a reason for gay men to wear wedding-type  rings, the oldest way in the book to make it clear your lack of evil intent  >:D

Hmmm...I would have thought the oldest way was to wear a Roman collar.  But that probably doesn't work anymore, does it?  ;) :D
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: ChrisW on September 13, 2007, 03:55:31 AM
p.s. that's a reason for gay men to wear wedding-type  rings, the oldest way in the book to make it clear your lack of evil intent  >:D

Hmmm...I would have thought the oldest way was to wear a Roman collar.  But that probably doesn't work anymore, does it?  ;) :D
or a chastity belt ...
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: quithammerin on September 13, 2007, 09:37:28 PM
Some career advice from the Globe and Mail, answering the question "A gay colleague casually asked if I'd like to go out for drinks one night after work. It didn't seem flirtatious, but I worry that if it were to turn into a come-on, it would sour our relationship at work. How do I handle this without seeming homophobic?

and the answer:

How would you handle this if a heterosexual member of the opposite sex invited you out for drinks one night after work?.....Be aware of the potential challenges but don't blow this out of proportion. If your colleague continues to make unwelcome invitations after you've clearly communicated your position, that would constitute sexual harassment, and you should speak with your supervisor, manager and/or human resources department. Employers should have sound corporate harassment policies in effect and take an active role in maintaining a working environment that is free of harassment.

Here's the whole column:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20070912.CAMENTOR12/TPStory/Business


p.s. that's a reason for gay men to wear wedding-type  rings, the oldest way in the book to make it clear your lack of evil intent  >:D


This is really interesting.  I think this is quite significant, actually.  There are a lot of straight guys who (say) they always wonder if they're being "hit on"  by gay guys, it's definitely a tension out there.   And we women know all about trying to tiptoe our way through a similar minefield.  Knowing a guy is happily monogamous clears a lot of problems out of the way.  But without some new paradigms, a gay or lesbian person is considered, almost by definition, never in the category of happily monogamous.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: john john on September 14, 2007, 08:02:27 AM
I think that this guy is insecure. If he likes working with this gay man why should he worry about having a drink with him? Did HE feel attracted?
Why would this gay man hit on a straight coworker when the consequences would end up on his shoulders?
Gay men don't NECESSARILY hit on straight men. This guy is presuming that when you're gay you can't have 'normal' relationships with people you work with. And besides, isn't he adult enough to deal with this by simply opening up and clearing out any ambiguity with his coworker?
It's not being homophobic to tell someone that you're not interested, it's just stating what you expect the relationship to be.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: chapeaugris on September 14, 2007, 09:29:17 AM
Heh heh... I can't help but chuckle reading a question like that. So refreshing to "watch" a guy squirm and wring his hands over this. Jeez, he has it so easy.  :D

Unless he doesn't like to socialise with colleagues outside of work on principle , can't he just say "You do know I'm straight, don't you?" I would think that would be even more unambiguous than a woman saying "You do know I'm married, don't you?" to a man in that situation because a woman's married state is not necessarily an obstacle to many men. But one would think that the invitee saying he's straight would make it all upfront. Wouldn't it?
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: michaelflanagansf on September 14, 2007, 01:38:02 PM
Unless he doesn't like to socialise with colleagues outside of work on principle , can't he just say "You do know I'm straight, don't you?"

I love it when guys say that to me.  I like to say "yes, but I was really only planning on having a drink...."  :D
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: john john on September 14, 2007, 02:34:44 PM
Unless he doesn't like to socialise with colleagues outside of work on principle , can't he just say "You do know I'm straight, don't you?"

I love it when guys say that to me.  I like to say "yes, but I was really only planning on having a drink...."  :D

I'm jotting down this one Michael!!
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: ChrisW on September 14, 2007, 04:14:05 PM
p.s. that's a reason for gay men to wear wedding-type  rings, the oldest way in the book to make it clear your lack of evil intent   >:D

can't he just say "You do know I'm straight, don't you?"
I love it when guys say that to me.  I like to say "yes, but I was really only planning on having a drink...."   :D

seems like some of you gayguys have figured this out as well as some of us wee lassies
- seriously, isn't this all about respect for the other person, as well as the fact that you know you will meet them by the photocopier at some godforsaken hour in the morning when you haven't quite started to function socially?
- and, also seriously, I know two married (to each other) men who seem so proud of their wedding rings; I think it's great. And you'd have to be really confused not to think a drink with either of them was just a drink. We will get there...



Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: milomorris on September 14, 2007, 04:43:27 PM
I think the straight co-worker needs to get over himself. Sometimes a drink is just a drink for crissake. And if the guy feels uncomfortable because he's afraid to be seen out socially with the gay guy 'cuz people will think he's gay too...well then he really has security issues.

Milo
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Jeff Wrangler on September 14, 2007, 08:17:30 PM
I think the straight co-worker needs to get over himself. Sometimes a drink is just a drink for crissake. And if the guy feels uncomfortable because he's afraid to be seen out socially with the gay guy 'cuz people will think he's gay too...well then he really has security issues.

Milo

Why is it, or so it seems to me, that so many straight guys seem obsessed with the idea that some gay guy is dying to get into their pants? Geez, most of 'em I wouldn't go near. ...  >:D

Are they that full of themselves?  ??? Or are they afraid they might like it?  >:D
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Roco on September 19, 2007, 09:42:15 PM
Gay college president says "I Do"

 http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2007/09/19/hexter
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: ChrisW on September 20, 2007, 12:51:47 AM
Gay college president says "I Do"

 http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2007/09/19/hexter

***cheers, throws roses, opens bottle of champagne, raises glass..***
that's exactly why I think this matters, and it's also what I have seen in my own home. These couples want to be taken just as seriously as my hubby and I do. It's a public statement, and I think it has got to happen. Thanks, Roco
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: bradINblue on September 20, 2007, 02:13:38 PM
In the October issue of Out magazine, there is an excellent article by Steve Weinstein. The piece is titled ‘Save the Last Dance’, and the photo caption is a bursting disco ball. The premise of the article, one of many written for Out over the past year that addresses the waning of current gay culture, is the unpopularity and demise of circuit parties. Here are a few excerpts from that article:

Although a few stalwarts limp on, the circuit party looks set to become the latest casualty of the changing face of gay America.

Where an earlier generation saw the drug-fueled all-night dances as liberating, those in their 20’s are as likely to view them as archaic throwbacks that bear little relationship to the way they live their lives. “The younger kids don’t want or need to follow in the footsteps of their older brothers,” says Tom Beaulieu, owner of Rise, a Boston nightclub. “They meet online and fit into the mainstream culturally.”

At 25, Justin Ocean, editor of New York City’s Next Magazine, says his friends “are more comfortable and accepted by straight friends. They don’t need the circuit to be free and have theat whole communal experience.” Nor do they accept the cult of the gym-built body. They’re more comfortable with how they look, “Ocean says. “They don’t need to be rock-hard to feel attractive.”


Weinstein writes about the tastes of young homo’s, specifically regarding music, and how these desires clash with the traditional gay culture nay bobs who refuse to move on. They stay locked into the crystalmeth hazed, strobe and beat driven sexathon that was, well, ‘Queer as Folk’. From the article:

Younger queers are going out to lounges, where they can hear mash-ups of old pop songs going back to the ‘60’s, hip-hop, and even reggae, country, and world music.

“The generation behind me doesn’t want to be a part of Saint-era music,” says well-known DJ Susan Morabito, referencing the legendary 1980’s gay disco in New York City’s East Village. Like other DJ’s of his generation, Seth Gold, who’s 27, has rejected Saint-style “classics” as well as the much harder drum-and-bass music in favor of an eclectic mix that includes, ‘80’s remixes and even the odd Journey track. “A lot of promoters for these parties are failing to grasp what younger people want,” he complains. “They appeal to what worked for them years ago. I’ve offered to throw another party or play a side room for younger people, but the response is always ‘Oh, they like what we give them.’” Gold blames main-room DJ’s who “won’t veer away from their style of music, even if it would mean satisfying the crowd.”

But Brett Henrichsen, another star circuit DJ, makes no excuses for his reputation as a “happy, vocal DJ—and don’t mind that, because I definitely prefer music with words and vocals.” He vows never to play “monotonous, repetitive, beat-laden sound Morabito calls music for “crystallized muscle boys.”

As many of us have moved on, so has the party. But Manny Lehman believes that whatever happens to the circuit, gay men will find a way to bond on the dance floor. “We have to keep our subculture going, because it’s important we keep what makes us unique and different,” he says. “Yes, it will metamorphose. Kids might say, ‘This is tired.’ But do they know how hard we worked for this?”
[/b]

What I find refreshing about this article is that young homo’s aren’t focusing on hot bodies, sex, and a young life of one-night stands. The fact lots of guys are meeting on-line, then going out says much. They actually have conversation before they fuck if they fuck. IMO, that is great. A much better foundation to meet and get to know another guy and perhaps forge a loving monogamous relationship--That which so many mainstream ‘straights’ don’t see in what media portrays us and how, in some cases, we portray ourselves.

This trend, the dying circuit party-‘Queer as Folk’ lifestyle, is similar to what is occurring in gay bars—at least on the West Coast. The old, popular places are closing. Guys are more comfortable in straight venues. Twenty-something’s don’t want to sequester themselves in dark caves with rainbow neon and video screens of bare-back sex everywhere ya’ look. I write this with two places in mind in Portland, Oregon. Bars opened in the past year, and very few takers. Like the circuit-party ‘mavens’ who refuse to move on……………….

I enjoyed the article. The last paragraph, however (bolded above) was like taking two steps forward and one step back. I think Lehman’s insistence we keep our “subculture going, because it’s important we keep what makes us unique and different” is flying in the face of young homo guys today. They don’t think they are unique. They’re just like everyone else except they prefer the arms of another man. It’s called assimilating into the mainstream. And they are comfortably doing so without the gay culture-ghetto. Isn’t that what the goal has been about all these years? Lehman’s last line, “But do they know how hard we worked for this?” My question is for what? What did Circuit parties give us? Maybe the two decades of rampant sex, drugs, and lonely loathsome guys who are pushing middle 40’s? Perhaps this scares the hell out of some of these young men. I say good.

Brad
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: CellarDweller115 on September 20, 2007, 02:28:09 PM
I enjoyed the article. The last paragraph, however (bolded above) was like taking two steps forward and one step back. I think Lehman’s insistence we keep our “subculture going, because it’s important we keep what makes us unique and different” is flying in the face of young homo guys today. They don’t think they are unique. They’re just like everyone else except they prefer the arms of another man. It’s called assimilating into the mainstream. And they are comfortably doing so without the gay culture-ghetto. Isn’t that what the goal has been about all these years? Lehman’s last line, “But do they know how hard we worked for this?” My question is for what? What did Circuit parties give us? Maybe the two decades of rampant sex, drugs, and lonely loathsome guys who are pushing middle 40’s? Perhaps this scares the hell out of some of these young men. I say good.


A different take on this, I fail to see how a "Circuit Party" is a strictly gay phenomena.  Straight kids have been doing this for years, calling them "Raves".  Never been to a "rave", but my understanding is it's basically the same as a "CP", except less organized.  Liqour, drugs, sex, all happen at "raves".

If "CPs" were to disappear, it's not like a unique part of the gay culture would be lost, imo.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: bradINblue on September 20, 2007, 02:48:09 PM
Circuit parties are exclusivley gay coordinated events, and their beginning was as fundraiser for AIDS. Difference in Circuit Parties and Raves are like day and night--from one who has experienced both.

Brad
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: john john on September 20, 2007, 03:19:45 PM
Here's how Wikipidia describes a Circuit party

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circuit_party
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: ChrisW on September 20, 2007, 03:22:57 PM
sorry - this doesn't follow on at all from the previous topics in this thread, it's about gay parenting. Those of you who have considered whether this is right for you may find it interesting, as the setup is such a traditional one.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/gayrights/story/0,,2170805,00.html
- if there's a better thread for this somewhere, I'll repost
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: CellarDweller115 on September 20, 2007, 03:44:18 PM
Circuit parties are exclusivley gay coordinated events, and their beginning was as fundraiser for AIDS. Difference in Circuit Parties and Raves are like day and night--from one who has experienced both.

Ok, you initially described a Circuit Party as "rampant sex & drugs"......this is pretty much what happens at raves now.  You also say their "beginning" was as a fundraiser, which leads me to believe that function no longer exists.

My point is that if they're no longer used as fundraisers, and the only difference now is that one is gay organized and one is not, what's the cultural significance now of a "circuit party" to the gay culture?  If it's only bringing young gay men to indiscriminate sex and drugs, is it such a loss if they were to fade away?
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: fritzkep on September 20, 2007, 07:16:15 PM
What is Saint-era music? ??? Never heard of that one.

Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: bradINblue on September 20, 2007, 07:29:08 PM
What is Saint-era music? ??? Never heard of that one.

I guess a program called 'The Saint' (may have British origins, not sure) was popular in the late 70's and early 80's and the music Saint-era music is disco dance stuff popular at that time. That music, seque to the type of music the Out article is referring to.

Brad
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: fritzkep on September 20, 2007, 07:33:49 PM
OK, Brad, thanks! That's a new expression on me, though I do remember the TV show The Saint. But I didn't think of it as indicative of an era.

Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: michaelflanagansf on September 21, 2007, 12:04:11 AM
What is Saint-era music? ??? Never heard of that one.

The Saint was a disco in New York:

http://www.saintdisco.com/
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: BayCityJohn on September 21, 2007, 12:49:16 AM
What is Saint-era music? ??? Never heard of that one.



Michael is correct.  I spent a lot of time at the Saint in it's latter days.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: milomorris on September 21, 2007, 01:08:16 AM
Saint was an absolutely gargantuan nightclub. And there was plenty of sex going on in the bleachers above the upstairs dance floor.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: milomorris on September 21, 2007, 01:15:57 AM
Straight kids have been doing this for years, calling them "Raves".  Never been to a "rave", but my understanding is it's basically the same as a "CP", except less organized.  Liqour, drugs, sex, all happen at "raves".

That's true. And raves are pretty much gone too. Besides, they were too hard to find in the first place, and often being held somewhere illegal, filthy, and/or hazardous (abandonded warehouses, etc.) 
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: ChrisW on September 21, 2007, 01:33:57 AM

What I find refreshing about this article is that young homo’s aren’t focusing on hot bodies, sex, and a young life of one-night stands. The fact lots of guys are meeting on-line, then going out says much. They actually have conversation before they fuck if they fuck. IMO, that is great. A much better foundation to meet and get to know another guy and perhaps forge a loving monogamous relationship--That which so many mainstream ‘straights’ don’t see in what media portrays us and how, in some cases, we portray ourselves.

enjoyed the article. The last paragraph, however (bolded above) was like taking two steps forward and one step back. I think Lehman’s insistence we keep our “subculture going, because it’s important we keep what makes us unique and different” is flying in the face of young homo guys today. They don’t think they are unique. They’re just like everyone else except they prefer the arms of another man. It’s called assimilating into the mainstream. And they are comfortably doing so without the gay culture-ghetto. Isn’t that what the goal has been about all these years? Lehman’s last line, “But do they know how hard we worked for this?” My question is for what? What did Circuit parties give us? Maybe the two decades of rampant sex, drugs, and lonely loathsome guys who are pushing middle 40’s? Perhaps this scares the hell out of some of these young men. I say good.

Brad

- Brad, this fits pretty much exactly with what I see here in the UK. I say good, too. Thanks for this, it's probably an international trend. Boring,maybe - but indeed, it's what the fight was about. I could complain about my workload, but I won't, women fought for the right to be taken seriously at work! It's similar.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: milomorris on September 21, 2007, 06:27:51 AM
- Brad, this fits pretty much exactly with what I see here in the UK. I say good, too. Thanks for this, it's probably an international trend. Boring,maybe - but indeed, it's what the fight was about. I could complain about my workload, but I won't, women fought for the right to be taken seriously at work! It's similar.

Yes, thank you, Brad. This is a very telling article. And, montezumae,  what you say about this trend being similar across the pond indicates to me that it is a generational rather than national trend. It has been said that Generation Y are in many ways the "new traditionalists." They seek a connection to their Mature Generation grand-parents. They seek to avoid the rebelliousness of their Baby Boomer parents, and the excesses of their Generation X cousins. There was a PBS documentary on them a couple of weeks ago. It featured among others a 20-something guy who decided to literally stay on the farm in Iowa (?) and improve many of its processes with state of the art technology. It also featured a group of GLBT and straight Christian evangelists (notice the small "e")who tour the US in a bus.

Milo
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: michaelflanagansf on September 21, 2007, 02:05:13 PM
Well this baby boomer was never particularly interested in Circuit Parties - they seemed to be so much of the same sort of excessive behavior that you see going on at places like Mardi Gras, Spring Break, Freaknic, etc.  Add to this that it was the sort of 'exclusive' behavior that you see people engaging in at clubs in New York and L.A. and it was just not the group of people I wanted to hang around.  I did know people who tried to provide AIDS education for people at these events, however (a good idea - no matter how dumb they act, they don't deserve to get sick or die - much like people who drink too much at various festivals should be stopped from driving drunk).  It just never seemed like much fun to me.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: ChrisW on September 21, 2007, 02:56:38 PM
Hello Milo and Michael,
Thanks for these comments - speaking as a baby boomer - I'd like to be able to say that I know all about these Clinton-like excesses, but of course I don't.
the observations are still valid, though.
My kids are - I think - this 'Generation Y'. One of my son's clear characteristics is what a home-bird he is. He has never forgotten his parents dragging him round the US at an early age, and doesn't travel much. I and my hubby still think travelling is a lot of fun. He went to one gay pride thing and it was all a bit too overt for him. He's mainstream in just the way Brad describes. No big deal. And that's just what our generation were fighting for all along.
In 1974 I contributed a fiver (quite a lot of money then) to David Norris's fighting fund in Dublin. He wanted to take his case for equal rights for gays (or whatever it was then) to the European Court of Human Rights. He famously won his case, and now young gay people in Ireland doubtless do not appreciate just how much courage that took.
And, as a woman, I can see the same is true for me. I was the generation that was able to take advantage of the rights our ancestors fought so hard for. Never doubt that I appreciate that. There may have been some female subculture to compare with the gay subculture, but if there was, I don't miss it.
Happy weekend folks!


Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: michaelflanagansf on September 22, 2007, 01:26:13 PM
Just a quick comment about dance clubs vs. circuit parties - I did (and still sometimes do) go to dance clubs.  The two are not necessarily equivalent - you can go to dance clubs to dance.

And, btw, this is not generational - kids are still lined up outside the dance clubs (both straight and gay) in the city every weekend.  Some people like them, some don't.

Two of my absolute favorites were 'The World' which was on the lower East Side of NYC (in Alphabet City) in the late 80s/Early 90s - and a large one in Key West (which I've forgotten the name of) that burned in the mid-90s.  They were both lots of fun.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: jstephens9 on September 22, 2007, 07:58:34 PM
I think the straight co-worker needs to get over himself. Sometimes a drink is just a drink for crissake. And if the guy feels uncomfortable because he's afraid to be seen out socially with the gay guy 'cuz people will think he's gay too...well then he really has security issues.

Milo

Why is it, or so it seems to me, that so many straight guys seem obsessed with the idea that some gay guy is dying to get into their pants? Geez, most of 'em I wouldn't go near. ...  >:D

Are they that full of themselves?  ??? Or are they afraid they might like it?  >:D

Jeff, you pose a question I have always wondered about myself. For some reason it does seem that if a straight guy finds out another guy is gay that means automatically that they are in danger of attack. It doesn't matter what they look or act like they seem to feel that a guy being gay means they are after every male on the planet. And you are right, so often these are straight guys I certainly would never be interested in. Wonder if these same guys think that a straight girl is automatically after them?
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: fritzkep on September 22, 2007, 08:23:18 PM
Jeff, you pose a question I have always wondered about myself. For some reason it does seem that if a straight guy finds out another guy is gay that means automatically that they are in danger of attack. It doesn't matter what they look or act like they seem to feel that a guy being gay means they are after every male on the planet. And you are right, so often these are straight guys I certainly would never be interested in. Wonder if these same guys think that a straight girl is automatically after them?

Only in their dreams.

Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: jstephens9 on September 22, 2007, 09:20:31 PM
Maybe the gay guy being attracted to them is only in their dreams too  :D
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: michaelflanagansf on September 22, 2007, 09:22:09 PM
Wonder if these same guys think that a straight girl is automatically after them?

Only in their dreams.

Actually I think it's more complex than that.  I was talking with one of my straight (male) friends today and we were talking about pressures to be in a couple.  He said something to the effect of 'and you aren't dealing with women - there is a whole other set of pressures related to having kids and getting married.'  So I think that many of these guys do think women are after them - to settle down, to get married and to have kids.  It's a different kind of being 'after' someone - but I think it's a common fear among (some) straight men.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Nikki on September 23, 2007, 08:32:03 AM
Wonder if these same guys think that a straight girl is automatically after them?

Only in their dreams.

Actually I think it's more complex than that.  I was talking with one of my straight (male) friends today and we were talking about pressures to be in a couple.  He said something to the effect of 'and you aren't dealing with women - there is a whole other set of pressures related to having kids and getting married.'  So I think that many of these guys do think women are after them - to settle down, to get married and to have kids.  It's a different kind of being 'after' someone - but I think it's a common fear among (some) straight men.

As a straight woman, I agree, Michael.  Not only when straight men are single are they pressured -- some women who have been through one or two marriages are still looking and are after men.  I've heard comments from straight women who can't imagine living without a man -- oh the horror!! So there is pressure at both ends of the rainbow! LOL  Of course, there are straight men who have been through several marriages who are looking as well -- the older some people get the more foolish they are regarding relationships IMO. They don't call bars "meat markets"  for nothing!!
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: jstephens9 on September 23, 2007, 09:54:49 AM
Michael and Nikki, you definitely have a point here and one that I did not consider. Sometimes it is way too easy to not recognize the strains and feelings of the other side. Marriage and family, yes those are two very big things that many of us, including me, have never had the experience of. There is quite a bit involved there. And the pressure on straight guys from many women to become involved in this is a very real thing. I can think of someone from BBM who was putting the pressure on Ennis. Remember Cassie  :) Beyond this conversation comes the idea that many times we do not think of the additional things and pressures that are involved in someone else's lifestyle. Being gay, being straight, being Bi, etc, all have pressures. It is important in my estimation that we seek to realize that and not see everything in black and white. The old saying along with the old song "Walk A Mile In My Shoes" comes to mind. Thanks to the both of you to make me think more deeply about this.

Jack
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Nikki on September 23, 2007, 10:37:53 AM
Michael and Nikki, you definitely have a point here and one that I did not consider. Sometimes it is way too easy to not recognize the strains and feelings of the other side. Marriage and family, yes those are two very big things that many of us, including me, have never had the experience of. There is quite a bit involved there. And the pressure on straight guys from many women to become involved in this is a very real thing. I can think of someone from BBM who was putting the pressure on Ennis. Remember Cassie  :) Beyond this conversation comes the idea that many times we do not think of the additional things and pressures that are involved in someone else's lifestyle. Being gay, being straight, being Bi, etc, all have pressures. It is important in my estimation that we seek to realize that and not see everything in black and white. The old saying along with the old song "Walk A Mile In My Shoes" comes to mind. Thanks to the both of you to make me think more deeply about this.

Jack

Jack, you're absolutely right.  Nothing is black and white -- there are always shades of gray IMO.  Yes, all relationships have pressures - gay, straight, bi --  By their very nature relationships are not easy -- there are problems and pitfalls in all of them -- After all, we are dealing with human beings who are by nature complex whatever the gender.  If there wasn't such pressure to get married, to have a boy/girlfriend, to have a relationship, things would be a lot easier, wouldn't they?
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: michaelflanagansf on September 23, 2007, 01:39:45 PM
Jack, you're absolutely right.  Nothing is black and white -- there are always shades of gray IMO.  Yes, all relationships have pressures - gay, straight, bi --  By their very nature relationships are not easy -- there are problems and pitfalls in all of them -- After all, we are dealing with human beings who are by nature complex whatever the gender.  If there wasn't such pressure to get married, to have a boy/girlfriend, to have a relationship, things would be a lot easier, wouldn't they?

Nikki this is something I often mention to people in terms of gay marriage.  Don't get me wrong - I think it is very important for gay relationships to be recognized and to have equal legal rights.  But I really hope that as we move to a time of gay marriage that young gay people won't be put in the same sort of situation that young straight people are now - that there is an expectation that they will be paired off and married (especially, say before their late 20s).  I have several nieces and nephews who are on second marriages because they thought this was the thing to do.

Here's to the day when people don't have to worry about people being 'after them' and they can take their time to get to know their partners and settle into true loving relationships - if that's what they want.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Jer009 on September 23, 2007, 03:08:08 PM
Here's to the day when people don't have to worry about people being 'after them' and they can take their time to get to know their partners and settle into true loving relationships - if that's what they want.

I agree, Michael. Otherwise, we risk getting gay people into the same straightjacket (Ha!)  as straight people. And some gay and straight people would do well to wait, and not marry at all. Or some combination of the two. It's a good argument for serial monogamy, for some people.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: quithammerin on September 23, 2007, 04:47:01 PM

Otherwise, we risk getting gay people into the same straightjacket (Ha!)  as straight people.


As yer traditionally-married person, I've got to chime in here.  I'm hoping for folk of sexual minorities to find a way to things like love, committment, community on their own terms.  I'm hoping for this to be an improvement on things so far, that the rest of us can look to as an inspiration. 

So many were inspired by Jack Twist's "It could be like this....." , but if I remember the posts I've read, there are are also plenty of us who added "you mean, it doesn't need to be like this??"
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: michaelflanagansf on September 23, 2007, 07:23:04 PM
As a single person I have to chime in here.  I hope that we will come to a point where people who choose to be single will cease to be seen as somehow 'less than' people in couples.  I'm quite happy by myself.  I'm not saying that I'll always be by myself - or that anyone else needs to do likewise.  But I know a lot of people get a real 'oh, you poor thing' attitude when they find out you aren't partnered up.  And both I and several of my friends (straight and gay) wish they would get over that.

If we really want an accepting society we will recognize the joy that people feel in their lives whether they are in couples or single.

http://www.unmarriedamerica.org/
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Nikki on September 23, 2007, 08:11:24 PM
As a single person I have to chime in here.  I hope that we will come to a point where people who choose to be single will cease to be seen as somehow 'less than' people in couples.  I'm quite happy by myself.  I'm not saying that I'll always be by myself - or that anyone else needs to do likewise.  But I know a lot of people get a real 'oh, you poor thing' attitude when they find out you aren't partnered up.  And both I and several of my friends (straight and gay) wish they would get over that.

If we really want an accepting society we will recognize the joy that people feel in their lives whether they are in couples or single.

http://www.unmarriedamerica.org/

Michael, I totally agree.  After my husband died, I began to get the same old question, "DOn't you want to marry again?"  I always replied "why should I."  We don't have to be partnered up, if we are contented as we are.  I have my family, friends, hobbies, CATS!!  I don't need a man to define me as a woman, or as a person. My answer to people who need a partner to define themselves as a person is: "Oh, you poor thing!"
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: quithammerin on September 23, 2007, 09:49:34 PM
Precisely! 

We all need some kind of love, committment, community, and a way to nurture us through the stages of life. I have no doubt that we can do that much better when we look at how many different things people have to offer.  It would lead to a lot less pain than than leading people to expect happiness in one of a small set of templates. 
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: tfferg on September 23, 2007, 11:42:08 PM

Jeff, you pose a question I have always wondered about myself. For some reason it does seem that if a straight guy finds out another guy is gay that means automatically that they are in danger of attack. It doesn't matter what they look or act like they seem to feel that a guy being gay means they are after every male on the planet. And you are right, so often these are straight guys I certainly would never be interested in. Wonder if these same guys think that a straight girl is automatically after them?

I wonder if it could also be the other way round. Lots of straight guys seem to think they should be after any and every woman they encounter. (Some cultures assume that whenever a man and a woman who are not family are alone, sex will automatically result, hence the instituionalization of segregation of the sexes in those societies.) Maybe they overgeneralize this to gay guys and think they are after every guy they see like a gay versionof Don Juan.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: michaelflanagansf on September 23, 2007, 11:48:11 PM
I wonder if it could also be the other way round. Lots of straight guys seem to think they should be after any and every woman they encounter. (Some cultures assume that whenever a man and a woman who are not family are alone, sex will automatically result, hence the instituionalization of segregation of the sexes in those societies.) Maybe they overgeneralize this to gay guys and think they are after every guy they see like a gay version of Don Juan.

This makes a lot of sense too Tony.  And the notions you mention are not that far away from western cultures - the 'skirts' that chairs and tables used to wear is due to the notion that table and chair legs would excite men and make them uncontrollable (sexually) around women.  Likewise the notion that a glimpse of stocking or ankle could overwhelmingly arouse men.

I wonder if there isn't some biological connection to the sexual expansiveness of men - the notion that they need to spread their genetic material as widely as possible to assure the success of their genetic line.  Of course this wouldn't make any sex in terms of gay sex - but the sexual impulse is more basic than the orientation of the person it is in (imho).

Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: bradINblue on September 24, 2007, 12:54:10 AM
I wonder if it could also be the other way round. Lots of straight guys seem to think they should be after any and every woman they encounter. (Some cultures assume that whenever a man and a woman who are not family are alone, sex will automatically result, hence the instituionalization of segregation of the sexes in those societies.) Maybe they overgeneralize this to gay guys and think they are after every guy they see like a gay versionof Don Juan.

I think it's time to pull yourselves/ourselves outta the trenches. I'm around a lot of straight guys in their 20's and they are nothing like the babyboomers and their genX kids--even here in the 'sticks'. These young guys don't chase after every 'skirt' they encounter. They stay married and don't drink and carry on as much. They don't think so much with their dicks like their fathers. They are home early and up early. It's not fair to think that most hetro guys are after every woman they encounter. IMO, this catagorizing is cliche' and passe'. Give em' some credit. They deserve it.

Brad
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: tfferg on September 24, 2007, 01:13:19 AM
Likewise the notion that a glimpse of stocking or ankle could overwhelmingly arouse men.

My Victorian grandfather in advanced old age would respond loudly in public to the sight of an attractive feminine ankle in the 1960s, much to my mother's consternation.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: jstephens9 on September 24, 2007, 07:15:22 AM
Obviously, several of you already had the same idea I had. I have always felt that even if someone were gay they were still expected to be in a relationship and if not they were somewhat less than the partnered people around them. This has been true for many years and I am not imagining that in the "gay" world. It exists. Somehow the idea that someone is "alone" becomes a bad thing. This is not true. Many people actually prefer to be alone. Many people who are partnered like the idea of being alone sometimes too. Having time to yourself can be a very good thing. I have pretty much been partnered with someone since shortly after I came out at 17. I felt I had to be in a relationship. It just seemed to be expected by those around me and I fell for it. The result turned out to be a couple of incredibly bad relationships which I stayed in way too long and wasted too many years of my life for just because I thought I should be in a relationship. Since the last one ended, Thank God, I discovered that it can be so much to do things by myself, go places by myself, etc. My first encounter with that was going to Myrtle Beach, SC last summer about this time of the year. I thought I hated the place. I discovered that my hate for the place had nothing to do with Myrtle Beach. It had everything to do with the lousy times I had there with both of the relationships. I found that I loved the place. I was free to come and go as I pleased, go where I wanted to go and it was incredible how many different people I got to meet and talk with. This past summer I went to New York City, again by myself, and I had an absolutely great time. Some people thought that was strange that someone would go to NYC alone. For me I would not have had it any other way. Again, I saw and did so many things plus talked to so many people. That would not have happened if I would have had some kind of relationship along with me.

Nikki and Michael touched on this, but it very much seems that someone who is alone, meaning not in a relationship, gets these looks and words which indicate "you pour thing" or you're going to end up "alone." You know that is not always a bad thing for everyone.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: zth on September 24, 2007, 07:39:10 AM
AMEN to that jstephens9 !
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: tfferg on September 24, 2007, 08:11:59 AM
It's not fair to think that most hetro guys are after every woman they encounter. IMO, this catagorizing is cliche' and passe'. Give em' some credit. They deserve it.

Brad

Nobody said anything about 'most' hetero guys.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: tfferg on September 24, 2007, 09:02:38 AM
Obviously, several of you already had the same idea I had. I have always felt that even if someone were gay they were still expected to be in a relationship and if not they were somewhat less than the partnered people around them. This has been true for many years and I am not imagining that in the "gay" world. It exists. Somehow the idea that someone is "alone" becomes a bad thing. This is not true. Many people actually prefer to be alone. Many people who are partnered like the idea of being alone sometimes too. Having time to yourself can be a very good thing. I have pretty much been partnered with someone since shortly after I came out at 17. I felt I had to be in a relationship. It just seemed to be expected by those around me and I fell for it. The result turned out to be a couple of incredibly bad relationships which I stayed in way too long and wasted too many years of my life for just because I thought I should be in a relationship. Since the last one ended, Thank God, I discovered that it can be so much to do things by myself, go places by myself, etc. My first encounter with that was going to Myrtle Beach, SC last summer about this time of the year. I thought I hated the place. I discovered that my hate for the place had nothing to do with Myrtle Beach. It had everything to do with the lousy times I had there with both of the relationships. I found that I loved the place. I was free to come and go as I pleased, go where I wanted to go and it was incredible how many different people I got to meet and talk with. This past summer I went to New York City, again by myself, and I had an absolutely great time. Some people thought that was strange that someone would go to NYC alone. For me I would not have had it any other way. Again, I saw and did so many things plus talked to so many people. That would not have happened if I would have had some kind of relationship along with me.

Nikki and Michael touched on this, but it very much seems that someone who is alone, meaning not in a relationship, gets these looks and words which indicate "you pour thing" or you're going to end up "alone." You know that is not always a bad thing for everyone.


I can't say I've ever felt any pressure from others to be in a gay relationship, but perhaps that's because I haven't been part of any gay social network, though I've often felt uncomfortably conspicuous and self-conscious being alone in public and especially in gay settings in my country where people seem to congregate in closed groups. In those settings, rather than being the target of looks, I've more often felt invisible. So, over the years, I've done many things alone, sometimes feeling very lonely, sometimes quite contentedly and with a sense of freedom and sometimes it has given me the flexibilty and the opportunity for good things, experiences and connections with people.

The traditional stereotype, as we know, is that we gays inevitably end up alone and unhappy, something which I set out to defy in recent years.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: michaelflanagansf on September 24, 2007, 10:35:55 AM
I've attempted to get some statistics for marriage - it isn't as easy as it sounds - here are some:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,120017,00.html

[from Fox news - not exactly my first choice]

A few points:

— The likelihood of a divorce (search) is lowest for men and women over age 60. Thirty-six percent of men and 32 percent of women in that age group may get divorced from their first spouse by the end of their lives.

— Within five years of marriage, about 10 percent of first-time married couples will likely divorce.

This is from USA Today:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2005-07-18-cohabit-divorce_x.htm

From this story:

The U.S. divorce rate is 17.7 per 1,000 married women, down from 22.6 in 1980. The marriage rate is also on a steady decline: a 50% drop since 1970 from 76.5 per 1,000 unmarried women to 39.9, says the report, whose calculations are based on an internationally used measurement.

And here is a Google answers response to marriage statistics questions:

http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=347051

Here is the median age at first marriage [27.1 for men and 25.3 for women in 2003]:

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0005061.html

And here is the census document associated with it:

http://www.census.gov/population/socdemo/hh-fam/ms2.pdf

And here are the alcohol consumption statistics:

http://www.centurycouncil.org/underage/65_data.html

http://alcoholism.about.com/cs/costs/a/aa980415.htm

Of particular note in that last one is this:

Declines in DUI arrest rates have occurred for every age group. Of particular note is the decrease in DUI arrest rates for those under the age of 21 compared to their rates of DUI arrest in the early 1980's when States had not adopted a uniform drinking age. In 1980 persons between 16 and 20 years old accounted for 10 percent of licensed drivers but 15 percent of DUI arrestees. In 1996, this age group accounted for 7 percent of drivers and 8 percent of DUI arrestees.

So it appears the rates of DUIs in under 21 year olds is nearly half now.

So I guess they're drinking less and getting married later?
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: bradINblue on October 08, 2007, 01:25:25 AM
Society is accepting if we give them credit and give them a chance. If men who love men act like men there isn't much to disdain or fight. If guys wanna be fashion conscious and hang out with women that's okay but they gotta 'road to hoe'.

Masculine guys who never got picked on in school cause' they were like the rest of the guys but happened to be queer aren't included in the GLBT umbrella. Why? Because that so called umbrella isn't really inclusive. A whole bunch of guys out there are like Jack Twist and Ennis Del'mar. They don't fit under that umbrella. The very point of the movie.
Thing is, society as a whole, is accepting. Ranks within' the 'gay community' aren't. I say take a lesson from society.

Brad
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Jeff Wrangler on October 08, 2007, 07:05:24 AM
Masculine guys who never got picked on in school cause' they were like the rest of the guys but happened to be queer aren't included in the GLBT umbrella. Why? Because that so called umbrella isn't really inclusive. A whole bunch of guys out there are like Jack Twist and Ennis Del'mar. They don't fit under that umbrella. The very point of the movie.

 Thing is, society as a whole, is accepting. Ranks within' the 'gay community' aren't. I say take a lesson from society.

Brad

This is just a lot of nonsense. Collectively, there is no exclusion of "masculine guys" from the gay community. If there is exclusion individually, it's because these individuals--like Ennis--are so afraid of appearing "queer"--so internally homophobic--or so intolerant of, or, at best, so uncomfortable with, men they perceive to be effeminate that they refuse to engage with the larger community. The only people who are keeping these "masculine guys" out from under the "GLBT umbrella" are these masculine guys themselves.

The movie has nothing to do with Ennis and Jack fitting into the gay community--nor does the story. It's about the destructiveness of rural homophobia--internal and external.

BF = Added after original post.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: CorvusCorax on October 08, 2007, 08:01:31 AM

I can't say I've ever felt any pressure from others to be in a gay relationship, but perhaps that's because I haven't been part of any gay social network, though I've often felt uncomfortably conspicuous and self-conscious being alone in public and especially in gay settings in my country where people seem to congregate in closed groups. In those settings, rather than being the target of looks, I've more often felt invisible. So, over the years, I've done many things alone, sometimes feeling very lonely, sometimes quite contentedly and with a sense of freedom and sometimes it has given me the flexibilty and the opportunity for good things, experiences and connections with people.

The traditional stereotype, as we know, is that we gays inevitably end up alone and unhappy, something which I set out to defy in recent years.


Society is accepting if we give them credit and give them a chance. If men who love men act like men there isn't much to disdain or fight. If guys wanna be fashion conscious and hang out with women that's okay but they gotta 'road to hoe'.

Masculine guys who never got picked on in school cause' they were like the rest of the guys but happened to be queer aren't included in the GLBT umbrella. Why? Because that so called umbrella isn't really inclusive. A whole bunch of guys out there are like Jack Twist and Ennis Del'mar. They don't fit under that umbrella. The very point of the movie

Thing is, society as a whole, is accepting. Ranks within' the 'gay community' aren't. I say take a lesson from society.

Brad
 

All this boils down to the question of attitude, whether that attitude reflects the law, or is in seeming contradiction to it, and how that affects our public and private lives. I'm not all that long in the tooth but I too heard versions of the sad-lonely-old-queen stereotype, from straight and gay people, usually centering around the impossibility of finding a partner past a certain age (gays) and the venerable why-do-they-call-themselves-gay-when-it's-such-a-sad-thing (straights).
But to be honest it did seem to me many of them did indeed end up alone, and not by choice, or that their relationships were of short duration, and for some obvious reasons:
Whatever your feelings are on tradition marriage, heterosexuals are trained for it from birth.  They have the examples of couples all around them, starting with their parents, they have models of hetereosexuality presented to them by the culture (in varying degrees of idealisation), and they begin training in their teens when they start dating, at which time they also observe the mating rituals of their peers. How successful they are at this depends on how good their intitial role models were, and how good their filters are for sifting through the mythologic representations of love in the media, etc.  But the message is clear: this is part of your life, and one day you too will pair off with someone and begin a family of your own.  A growing number do not, but that is their choice, not a result of being left out, and as several of you point out, heterosexual nonconformists do have a penalty to pay, even if it is only in the form of misguided "consolation" from clueless relatives.
By contrast, unless you're talking about gay people who are only now reaching adulthood, homosexuality has probably been presented to you as something fraught with angst and difficulty and depending on your background, sin, or, if the stereotyp-ers are gay themselves, maybe as something provocative and deliciously subversive, but at any rate,never as a ticket to bourgeois conformity. Even if that middle-aged dullness--where the highlight of your weekend is rediscovering the Christmas tree stand that always works during the garage cleanup that you've been putting off for three years--was something that may have sounded not bad at all, and if you admitted as such, there weren't too many role models about.
The solution, when one realized that one did not fit in, used to be an escape to the city, far away from the small town small minds, where we were "free to be", except for a lot of people, that freedom only meant the freedom to express that one facet of themselves, at the expense of the rest of themselves, but people paid it, imagining the alternative was much worse, invoking the names of Matt Shephard and Brandon Teena as proof that outside those urban safety zones, nothing had changed.  It's common knowledge, isn't it, that once you cross into unincorporated county land and beyond, two men foolish enough to set up house together with be dragged from their beds and lynched, right?
Except that you and I both, Brad, live in rural redneck areas well outside the urban safety zones and have had no trouble with the neighbors, as is also the case for a gay couple who live about 2 miles away from me.  We both commute to jobs in big cities famous for their liberalism and thriving gay communities, both of which have had incidents of anti-gay harrassment perpetrated on residents, not by visiting rednecks who drove their trucks from the sticks for a gaybashing night on the town, but by college boys who came no further than the suburbs.
Both states have passed extensive antidiscrimination laws, but are also home to movements to repeal those laws and propose bills that would prevent any further such legislation from passing--until the next election cycle, anyway.  Liberalism and conservatism, or progessiveness and repression if you like, exist cheek by jowl here, as they do everywhere else.  There is no true safe zone, but neither is there one where it's always "threat condition red."
On paper, the dichotomy seems clear, in real life, not so much.  And as more of the kids growing up in such areas where they are stuck driving for three slow miles behind the neighbors towing their horse trailer, or see their mothers wave to the same two middle aged women out walking their sheep dogs every morning,  later overhear someone mention the two horsey guys are retired sergeants who live together, when they become aware of their own sexuality, it will make a big difference in their lives.  They will have options for expressing that sexuality that were risky for someone a generation older, and moreover, their options for finding a mate will be far less restricted than their elders' were.
Conversely, their neighbors, who are, if the stereotype is to be believed, the most likely to vote against measures that protect gay people from discrimination and  redefine or expand traditional marriage, might find themselves hesitating before their voter's forms as they think of the retired sergeants who board their kids' horses and the nice middle-aged teachers and their heelers.  They might vote no anyway, but that "no" may well get less emphatic each time, until eventually it becomes "I don't know,"  and "yes" slips past it.  This takes time, and it is frustrating, especially to those like myself that recoil at the idea of basic rights being up for a vote at all, but this is how things are done here and we are stuck with it, and it has the benefit of attitude outrunning the law, so that when they law does eventually change, it changes for good, not just till the next round of court challenges.
Those urban safety zones had their place--they still do, and for some people, they were and are a Godsend. But anything, even if it seems tailor-made for you and your tastes (at the time), can come to seem like a prison if it is  the only option out here.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Lance on October 08, 2007, 08:44:55 AM
''is society really as accepting as it claims?''

That depends on how we define 'society'. 'Society' doesn't claim  anything, only individual people do, and no matter what group they claim to speak for, they are speaking for themselves. Some of them are accepting, some of them aren't; I don't know enough individuals nor enough statistical studies to say how big a percentage of them might be accepting of gay existence and/or behaviour.

But if we are speaking of 'society' as the set of laws, how they are applied, and how they are or are not confirmed by courts, then it is clear that 'society' is not very accepting of gays, but then 'society' doesn't claim to be either accepting or not accepting.

However, the situation is clear, gay people are somewhat disadvantaged in some circumstances under the current set of laws that our country lives by.
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: BayCityJohn on October 08, 2007, 10:45:45 AM
Society is accepting if we give them credit and give them a chance. If men who love men act like men there isn't much to disdain or fight. If guys wanna be fashion conscious and hang out with women that's okay but they gotta 'road to hoe'.

Masculine guys who never got picked on in school cause' they were like the rest of the guys but happened to be queer aren't included in the GLBT umbrella. Why? Because that so called umbrella isn't really inclusive. A whole bunch of guys out there are like Jack Twist and Ennis Del'mar. They don't fit under that umbrella. The very point of the movie.
Thing is, society as a whole, is accepting. Ranks within' the 'gay community' aren't. I say take a lesson from society.

Brad

Excuse me if I missed the point of the movie.

I don't see how Jack and Ennis were more accepted by society because of their masculinity. Especailly Jack. Unless you accept society's premise that the only happy faggot is a dead faggot.

For me the point is that yes, there are a lot of men like Jack & Ennis out there who try to fit in to society by acting 'masculine' and end up a mess.

Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Lance on October 08, 2007, 11:31:50 AM
A reminder: The ''masculinity thread'' was closed precisely to end the argument that had come to a dead end many months ago, with no one convinced that they should convert to the opinion held by anyone else. No new point had been raised for a very long time. No one has any sort of universal Truth that everyone should convert to. Humans do not create universal Truths. One or more people were so incensed that their own opinion was not recognised as incontrovertible fact that they were sarcastically insulting others. It was time for that particular line of argument to cease. It still is that time. It will not be reintroduced to poison any other thread, nor to continue to generate bitterness and anger. I believe that the entire forum staff from Dave on through is in agreement about this, having gone on record in our discussions of it. Please desist from restarting this line of argument. If you disagree, do it in PMs to the staff members. I will certainly be willing if not happy to explain in excruciating detail why the decision was made, and to thoroughly delineate the consequences of not following the policy. I am likewise entirely happy to accept responsibility for my impetuous behaviour concerning this matter, because somebody needs to end the argument and hurtful offensive behaviour that has recurred again and again and again for about a year. To continue the discussion would be to go against the rules and policy of the forums as set out by Dave in The Rules: http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=124.0
Title: Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Lance on October 08, 2007, 11:48:44 AM
Dave has given permission to quote this statement of his:

~ basically, the thread had pros and cons:

Pro: some interesting debate
Con: it frequently got extremely heated and divisive and often offensive and destructive in a lot of different ways.

after a year and a half, it was mostly repetition. the pro side of the equation had diminished to very little. the con side was ever higher. so it did not seem wise to keep it.

we have been discussing that situation for a very long time--god, at least a year. (we being mods, other administrators, and countless members who have weighed in for and agaisnt closing it.) for most of that time, meli and i were for keeping it, because our philosophy is generally to ere on the side of keeping discussion and accepting the pain. but as the pros got smaller and the cons bigger, and the discussion had been given more and more time to play itself out, we decided enough was enough.

i think we need to make space for all sorts of discussions, even ones that can get ugly. but discussing them forever i don't necessarily agree with. a year and a half is a long time for a discussion. i think this one had run its course, and the downside was far greater than the up.
Title: Re: Is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Cletis on October 08, 2007, 08:23:12 PM
are we as accepting as we all want the rest of the world to believe, or are we putting on a fine performance while in our hearts the thoughts about accepting someone for their sexual preference are non existant

 I think we -- straight and gay fans of BBM-- all are still prone to streaks of heterosexist bias, ie, attitudes that discount homosexuals -- to some extent.  The trick is to recognize when these slips occur and realize we still got work to do. There's no shame in it. We're trying.  And, gay folks can work on allowing some leeway for straights who are still working things out.

We all grew up in a culture that reinforced the idea that we were going to be straight, and that everyone should be straight.
Title: Re: Is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: michaelflanagansf on October 14, 2007, 06:41:41 PM
Great article on how a group of men who feel people don't connect are working to change that.  These guys are assertive in addressing the problem and attempting to make change.  I salute them!

Reality check for SF's gay men

by Seth Hemmelgarn

A local group's review of data from a survey it's been conducting since 2004 indicates the city's gay men are far from having a tight-knit community. Only about half of the respondents say there's a gay community with which they identify. The survey results, which might not be surprising to many people, also show that men with different racial, economic, age, HIV status, and body types often don't mix.

Hoping to help change that, members of the San Francisco Gay Men's Community Initiative are holding a community celebration and fundraiser Sunday, October 14.

Doug Sebesta, Ph.D., executive director of GMCI, recently helped review the data. He said the results will hopefully help the city's gay men start gaining a better understanding of each other and engaging with each other.

http://www.ebar.com/news/article.php?sec=news&article=2301
Title: Re: Is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: milomorris on October 15, 2007, 12:15:33 AM
h. Quite ttp://www.ebar.com/news/article.php?sec=news&article=2301

Very interesting reading. This article supports many of my critical POVs about the gay community and lifestyle. At the same time, it is troubling. This article begs the question: if so many homosexual men want a gay community, yet find the existing state of that community so lacking, what can the community do to make itself relevant to these guys who don't participate?

Milo
Title: Re: Is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: michaelflanagansf on October 15, 2007, 12:22:24 AM
Very interesting reading. This article supports many of my critical POVs about the gay community and lifestyle. At the same time, it is troubling. This article begs the question: if so many homosexual men want a gay community, yet find the existing state of that community so lacking, what can the community do to make itself relevant to these guys who don't participate?

Milo

Well it's also confusing - because I'm one of those people who have never had trouble finding a community when I've looked for it - at book events, film events, etc.  What I find problematic is that there is a lot going on out there and people often seem too lazy to get interested or participate in it.  I'm glad they're talking about it - but I hope they do more than talk.
Title: Re: Is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Jeff Wrangler on October 15, 2007, 11:44:35 AM
Well it's also confusing - because I'm one of those people who have never had trouble finding a community when I've looked for it - at book events, film events, etc.  What I find problematic is that there is a lot going on out there and people often seem too lazy to get interested or participate in it.  I'm glad they're talking about it - but I hope they do more than talk.

That's the thing, though. The way I see it, there is community, and there is Community. I've never had trouble finding a community, either, be it my regular watering hole, my leather club, or my church. But these may be considered "small 'c'" communities. I would have liked to know how precise the survey was in defining it's terms, especially what it means by community.

What the survey found about the lack of mixing of subgroups--"small 'c'" communities--would not be news in Philadelphia. Maybe some of the respondents were finding community within these subgroups but didn't feel connected to a large, overarching Gay Community?

Maybe same-sex marriage is mainly an issue for people who have partners they want to marry? I'm terminally single, and to be perfectly honest, I don't give a hoot. (Please, no comments about "maybe someday you will.")
Title: Re: Is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: michaelflanagansf on October 15, 2007, 01:54:37 PM
That's the thing, though. The way I see it, there is community, and there is Community. I've never had trouble finding a community, either, be it my regular watering hole, my leather club, or my church. But these may be considered "small 'c'" communities. I would have liked to know how precise the survey was in defining it's terms, especially what it means by community.

What the survey found about the lack of mixing of subgroups--"small 'c'" communities--would not be news in Philadelphia. Maybe some of the respondents were finding community within these subgroups but didn't feel connected to a large, overarching Gay Community?

Maybe same-sex marriage is mainly an issue for people who have partners they want to marry? I'm terminally single, and to be perfectly honest, I don't give a hoot. (Please, no comments about "maybe someday you will.")

Okay...this is just a WONDERFUL comment Jeff!  And very true - I don't think there will ever be a large C community group.  LGBT centers try to do this (and they do some great work, don't get me wrong) but the problems comes where people's differences lie.  The notions that I will have a lot in common with someone who is going through hormone therapy to change gender, for example, shows that this sort of thing is a stretch.  Even in the old days where it was just lesbians and gays people had lots of problems getting along and doing things together.

That being said I did see an awful lot of good community building during the beginnings of the AIDS crisis.  People do seem to pull together when really awful things happen.  It reminds me a lot of what I saw in the PBS series 'The War'.

And yes, I'm a happy single too.

An important note about that survey - it wasn't a scientific survey and they didn't control their sample.
Title: Re: Is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Jeff Wrangler on October 15, 2007, 04:14:00 PM
Okay...this is just a WONDERFUL comment Jeff!

Aww, gee, thanks, Michael. ...  :-[

Quote
And yes, I'm a happy single too.

Good for you!  :D  I just said I was terminally single, not that I was happy about it.  ;)  ;D
Title: Re: Is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Brokeback_1 on October 15, 2007, 04:59:32 PM
My views on all this are slowly evolving. I no longer  believe society is as accepting as I thought it was. Society will tolerate complete pig behaviour from certain straight men but not from gay men.

And I am rather quickly coming to the view that a LOT of gay men are not accepting of each other at all, let alone accepting of bi men. And lesbians are not considered worth the time. More and more I think the umbrella community is nothing but a farce., a politically correct 'thing' invented to give an appearance of some unity.

There is very little unity, IMO.

And not much more acceptance.
Title: Re: Is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: michaelflanagansf on October 15, 2007, 04:59:34 PM

 ;D

It really is a good comment, though.  I was thinking afterwards how in the 70s I felt very much this way about lesbians and gay men.  I used to hang out in lesbian coffee houses and was a women's studies student - I felt very much like there was no there there regarding men's community.  When I moved to SF I began to see that there were several communities - the Imperial Court immediately comes to mind - and though they are constantly fighting with one another they are certainly a community.  There's nothing big and overarching - but I think if we look to ethnic communities we can see what a fallacy that is - here in San Francisco we have Chinese groups that are still fighting their civil war by which flags they hang outside their establishments.
Title: Re: Is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: michaelflanagansf on October 15, 2007, 05:36:02 PM
My views on all this are slowly evolving. I no longer  believe society is as accepting as I thought it was. Society will tolerate complete pig behaviour from certain straight men but not from gay men.

And I am rather quickly coming to the view that a LOT of gay men are not accepting of each other at all, let alone accepting of bi men. And lesbians are not considered worth the time. More and more I think the umbrella community is nothing but a farce., a politically correct 'thing' invented to give an appearance of some unity.

There is very little unity, IMO.

And not much more acceptance.

Well I'd say it's important to manage expectations.  Much like you wouldn't expect a room full of heterosexuals to agree on everything or consider themselves to be part of an overarching 'community' it's a big reach to expect this out of gay men (or women) as well. 

I was around for the feminist movement in the 70s and it's not like you could get all women to agree to anything back then either.  So it's not something I'd get to upset about - people are people, bi, straight or gay.
Title: Re: Is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Brokeback_1 on October 15, 2007, 07:32:44 PM
Well, I have a great deal of respect  for you and your views Michael, so I hope you are right. I would like to be wrong.
Title: Re: Is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Jeff Wrangler on October 15, 2007, 09:13:53 PM
And I am rather quickly coming to the view that a LOT of gay men are not accepting of each other at all, let alone accepting of bi men. And lesbians are not considered worth the time.

There is very little unity, IMO.

It doesn't please me any to say it, but this more or less matches my observation and experience after twenty years in the Philadelphia "gay community."

When I moved to SF I began to see that there were several communities. 

This also would apply to Philadelphia.
Title: Re: Is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: milomorris on October 16, 2007, 12:11:42 AM
When I moved to SF I began to see that there were several communities. 

This also would apply to Philadelphia.

Quite correct!!

Earlier this year I stumbled upon a logo for Black Pride, and followed the graphic to a website. Apparently there is a separate Pride event for blacks and latinos in this city. The discovery made me feel like we are taking a step backwards.

Now, I don't go to Pride events any more. I went to one with some co-workers back in 1999 or 2000 just because it was something to do and I wanted to get to know these coworkers a little better. But this discovery made my skin crawl. Why does this Black Pride exist? Is it just another example of self-segregation? Or is it that the "main" Gay Pride week is so euro-centric that minorities feel uncomfortable? Either way, there's a problem here.

Milo
Title: Re: Is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: bradINblue on October 16, 2007, 12:51:04 AM
A local group's review of data from a survey it's been conducting since 2004 indicates the city's gay men are far from having a tight-knit community. Only about half of the respondents say there's a gay community with which they identify. The survey results, which might not be surprising to many people, also show that men with different racial, economic, age, HIV status, and body types often don't mix.
Hoping to help change that, members of the San Francisco Gay Men's Community Initiative are holding a community celebration and fundraiser Sunday, October 14.
It seems to me a tight-knit community would be a group of Apostolic Lutherans who live geographically close. Perhaps 50 hippies in a commune. The effort to forge a tight-knit community with 100 randomly chosen homosexual men who live in the same city would probably be harder then forging that community with 100 individuals regardless of sexuality or gender.

And I am rather quickly coming to the view that a LOT of gay men are not accepting of each other at all, let alone accepting of bi men. And lesbians are not considered worth the time.

There are diverse points of view between people. It is a mistake to expect society or anyone to blindly accept someone just because he/she is a member of a group. We, and society as a whole, determine who we want to be around/partner with based on many, many variables. Blanket acceptance of a philosopy by large groups has proven disasterous (Nazi, Rajneesh, Jim Jones to name a few). One isn’t required to relate to or agree with someone for there to be tolerance and acceptance.

Quote
More and more I think the umbrella community is nothing but a farce., a politically correct 'thing' invented to give an appearance of some unity.

I agree. There was a unification of many groups of people, and not just homosexual men, during the AIDS crisis. There were many fronts united post Stonewall. When that umbrella started standing for a political ideal, people started getting wet. Some under that political umbrella sold us short (Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell and Defense of Marriage). Instead of representing people who are different from the norm, it represents votes and stands (war position & religion to name a few) that have nothing to do with tolerance and acceptance of us because of our sexuality .

Well I'd say it's important to manage expectations.  Much like you wouldn't expect a room full of heterosexuals to agree on everything or consider themselves to be part of an overarching 'community' it's a big reach to expect this out of gay men (or women) as well. 
 
Well said.
I respect those who find groups they fit into and are comfortable, especially living life single. There are as many of these types of groups among heterosexuals as there are for homosexuals. The majority, however, don’t needs groups. At an early age, I assumed I would not be accepted by society, so I hid. For me, joining a group wouldn't have helped. What did help was for me to accept myself. Once done, I realized most 'knew' and accepted me anyway. So much for my early assumptions of acceptance by society.

Brad


Title: Re: Is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Nax on October 16, 2007, 03:19:44 AM
, I assumed I would not be accepted by society, so I hid. For me, joining a group wouldn't have helped. What did help was for me to accept myself. Once done, I realized most 'knew' and accepted me anyway. So much for my early assumptions of acceptance by society.

Brad


Brad, that is the key for everyone, and the key that we all have to find as individuals, you can't hope for others to accept you until you have accepted yourself (but you're right some people know things about you before you know them yourself!). Achieving this IMHO brings the strength for us to understand that in reality, we don't need anyone Else's "acceptance" to be who we are.  Some people need and find value from peer groups others don't we are all different -yet the same  ;)
Title: Re: Is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: victorio on October 16, 2007, 10:42:52 AM
First off, we can skip the meet and greet ceremony cause I ain't new.  I've checked in and out of this forum more times than L. Lohan has been in rehab.  You guys are addictive.  Gotta say it: "Wish I knew how to quit you".  Anyway, wanted to join the "SELF-ACCEPTANCE" choir.  That is a huge obstacle for many folks.  I think the first 30 years I was a victim of a hate crime: I HATED myself and that was a damn crime.  The last 30 have been way better than I ever could have dreamed up.  Why do we do that to ourselves?  I hope any young folks reading this forum can skip that self-hate step.  What a waste of time.

As far as society and me,  I don't have a real handle on society at large.  I only know that to the best of my knowledge I have never been discriminated against personally or professionally.  Of course I'm kinda obtuse and might not recognize a put down when I hear one... ;)  It seems I'm the one doing the discriminating around here.  I've had to put the run on a couple a Lee's straight bar buddies cause I often babysit the grandkids and don't want a bunch of drunken assholes hanging around.  And Nax, don't start up about my lowlife friends...   

And lastly, one of the reasons I drop off the forum occasionally is because my life doesn't seem relevant to what many of you have/are/will experience.  When I dish up a slice of my life for you folks it isn't because I think everyone should go and do as I do.  On the contrary, most of you would be bored stiff out here in the boondocks.  My message, if there is one, is directed towards anyone who isn't sure what kind of life a man who loves other men is entitled too.  My message is you can have any kind of damn life you want.  If you want to be in a community(as you've been discussing) of similar folks you can find it.  I, not being very imaginative, wanted a life just like all the straight folks I knew only I wanted my partner to be a man...one man, forever, till death etc.  And I wanted kids, and a home near a small town in a rural setting.  And I didn't really care what I did for a living as long as my partner and family were doing ok. 

On another thread, now deceased, there was endless discussion about where men fit on the feminine masculine continuum.  I guess there is also a social continnum, and I'm thinking that I'm right over at the edge, next to that isolated shadowland where the guys you will never know about are living.  Those guys won't find the forum, probably never see BBM, wouldn't understand huge parts of the lexicon used herein, don't know any gay people(nor do we) and aren't the least bit interested in what you all are doing.  That was my downfall.  BBM made me curious about how other men were living their lives.  So I hang out here and have been shocked, informed, tickled, saddened.  Prefer to lurk but just wanted to offer you more than a polite handshake this time around.

Monte



Title: Re: Is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Lance on October 16, 2007, 10:54:00 AM
Yep, it's more important to accept yourself than it is to have 'society' accept you. Once I did accept myself enough to tell my friends 'what' I was, it was like an entirely new free world opened up for me. I took the risk knowing that they might reject me, but it was so important for me to just be me that I took the risk. And if they had not accepted my gayness, that's just the way it would be, and their loss more than mine. It's too bad that it took so long for me to reach that stage; the delay cost me a lot.
Title: Re: Is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Lance on October 16, 2007, 11:02:01 AM
BTW, 'Monte', I was glad to see that you were big enough to be upfront about who you were previously on the forums. I could have re-activated your previous username for you if you'd wanted that. In fact, I still can.
Title: Re: Is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: bradINblue on October 16, 2007, 12:07:27 PM
And lastly, one of the reasons I drop off the forum occasionally is because my life doesn't seem relevant to what many of you have/are/will experience.  When I dish up a slice of my life for you folks it isn't because I think everyone should go and do as I do.  On the contrary, most of you would be bored stiff out here in the boondocks.  My message, if there is one, is directed towards anyone who isn't sure what kind of life a man who loves other men is entitled too.  My message is you can have any kind of damn life you want. 

Our audience here is broader than we think. For those who think rural life reeks of homophobia and hate toward anyone different, lots of us here beg to differ. Heck, the incidents I am aware of, while rare, happen in the city by those who live there. Could it be there's more acceptance outside the city  ;)

Brad



edited by Lance to remove that same argument from the masculinity thread that Dave has declared to be ended. Brad, I've sent you a PM with my rebuttal to the argument. :D
Title: Re: Is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Jeff Wrangler on October 16, 2007, 12:35:46 PM
I'm sorry, I'm just an ignorant Eastern big-city guy.  ;)  What's QAF and WAG?

Thanks!
Title: Re: Is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Lance on October 16, 2007, 01:56:05 PM
~  Could it be there's more acceptance outside the city 

I suspect that there's very little difference. Pretty much everybody in rural or urban areas has television and knows what's happening nationally and internationally. Percentages of various philosophical or religious outlooks may not be very different at all.

However, in that case, it would be expected that by far the greater number of incidents of gay-bashing would occur in the cities because their population is many times higher than the population of rural areas.
Title: Re: Is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Boris on October 16, 2007, 02:21:33 PM
I'm sorry, I'm just an ignorant Eastern big-city guy.  ;)  What's QAF and WAG?

Thanks!

QAF = Queer as Folk, most often in reference to American version of the TV series in Showtime.
WAG = British slang, meaning "Wives and Girlfriends", most often in reference to wives and girlfriends of soccer players or other sports figures. Most know WAG is Victoria Beckham.

Title: Re: Is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Lance on October 16, 2007, 02:32:28 PM
Will And Grace, Jari. American television show of dubious excellence. ;) :D
Title: Re: Is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Boris on October 16, 2007, 02:37:00 PM
Will And Grace, Jari. American television show of dubious excellence. ;) :D

OK. I call it "Jack and Karen". That just shows that the pond IS big.
Title: Re: Is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Lance on October 16, 2007, 02:41:02 PM
I hate both Jack and Karen because they're horrible people, and I despise Will and Grace as the whiny weaklings they are. I am so glad that they're all fictional.
Title: Re: Is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: michaelflanagansf on October 16, 2007, 03:29:00 PM
I hate both Jack and Karen because they're horrible people, and I despise Will and Grace as the whiny weaklings they are. I am so glad that they're all fictional.

I always thought that the sitcom was just an updated version of 'Boys In The Band' with Grace and Karen replacing two of the guys in the cast.

Talk about your mind numbing stereotypes!  People that catty and banal (male or female) make me glad I don't have a CCW license.
Title: Re: Is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Lance on October 16, 2007, 03:43:26 PM
CCW? Please enlighten me.
Title: Re: Is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Jeff Wrangler on October 16, 2007, 04:50:11 PM
I'm sorry, I'm just an ignorant Eastern big-city guy.  ;)  What's QAF and WAG?

Thanks!

QAF = Queer as Folk, most often in reference to American version of the TV series in Showtime.
WAG = British slang, meaning "Wives and Girlfriends", most often in reference to wives and girlfriends of soccer players or other sports figures. Most know WAG is Victoria Beckham.

Thanks, Jari!

I refuse to pay for premium television channels that I don't need and don't watch, so, while I have, of course, heard of Queer as Folk, both the British and American incarnations, I've never seen either--and have no interest in seeing either--so it's not enough in my consciousness to pick up on the shorthand.

Will And Grace, Jari. American television show of dubious excellence. ;) :D

Thanks, Lance!

Will and Grace I have seen, again not high enough in my consciousness, expecially since it's no longer in Prime Time, that I'm not used to seeing it referred to in shorthand.
Title: Re: Is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: bradINblue on October 16, 2007, 04:53:00 PM
I'll do everyone a favor and go away, that is if Mods will allow my account to be delted.

Brad
Title: Re: Is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Jeff Wrangler on October 16, 2007, 04:55:34 PM
I'll do everyone a favor and go away, that is if Mods will allow my account to be delted.

Brad

What makes you think people want you to go away?  ???

I sure don't.
Title: Re: Is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Brokeback_1 on October 16, 2007, 07:05:50 PM
who said go away?
Title: Re: Is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Lance on October 16, 2007, 07:21:52 PM
Brad. He decided he didn't want to stay here and asked that his account be deactivated. So it has been.
Title: Re: Is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: michaelflanagansf on October 16, 2007, 09:28:07 PM
CCW? Please enlighten me.

carrying a concealed weapon.
Title: Re: Is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Brokeback_1 on October 16, 2007, 09:46:18 PM
This is so silly....hell, if I stick around why can't everybody else. And I have made waves at times, as you well know Lance. Sometimes knowing there would be waves and sometimes creating a hurricane by being totally uncomprehending that the  place and statements were not WISE at the time---in other words hurricane by mistake>>>again,  as you well know Lance! Sometimes  waves via a spontaneous blow up, which we have both had, Lance. So what? who keeps score, i certainly don't and hell, I learned more when you and I yelled at each other then I'd have ever learned  if we'd just  been sweet. Sweet is BS [lol]
Point is, we all need to have some good will. I have it, you have it, the other mods have it, most posters have it.

This is not the politburo and you damned well know what i mean. Nor is it anarchy.

Nobody will get on with everyone, and stuff like this is frustratin!

If people leave, how are we supposed to continue to learn and grow? NOBODY wants a forum filled with yesyesyes in response to every single statement! What's the point???

 Brad is a good guy. I'm a goin a miss his input. Those views were necessary here.

Title: Re: Is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Jeff Wrangler on October 16, 2007, 10:39:52 PM
Brad sent me a PM to say that someone told him I said he pissed me off. (I'm not exactly pleased that someone told him that, but that's another matter.) I responded, but if he asked to have his account deactivated, I don't suppose I'll ever know whether he read my response.

I don't know how to quote my own outgoing PMs in a post, but here's the text of what I wrote to him:

Quote
Well, maybe you have written some things that have pissed me off, but they've made me think, which is a good thing. You've been around here longer than me. I don't want to be responsible for driving you off just because we may disagree.

If you feel it's time for you to move on from this forum, that's another matter. But please don't leave on my account. I'm the relative newcomer here. Better I should confine myself to the Gay and Christian thread, and stay away from the Gay issues forum, than that I should be responsible for driving someone away.

Jeff
Title: Re: Is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: milomorris on October 16, 2007, 11:12:09 PM
Brad. He decided he didn't want to stay here and asked that his account be deactivated. So it has been.

Oh crap!!!
Title: Re: Is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Lance on October 17, 2007, 08:26:52 AM
Please get back on topic, gentlemen. Brad is not here to give his side of this story; it doesn't seem fair to give ours.
Title: Re: Is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: mcnell1120 on October 17, 2007, 08:48:36 AM
This is so silly....hell, if I stick around why can't everybody else. And I have made waves at times, as you well know Lance. Sometimes knowing there would be waves and sometimes creating a hurricane by being totally uncomprehending that the  place and statements were not WISE at the time---in other words hurricane by mistake>>>again,  as you well know Lance! Sometimes  waves via a spontaneous blow up, which we have both had, Lance. So what? who keeps score, i certainly don't and hell, I learned more when you and I yelled at each other then I'd have ever learned  if we'd just  been sweet. Sweet is BS [lol]
Point is, we all need to have some good will. I have it, you have it, the other mods have it, most posters have it.

This is not the politburo and you damned well know what i mean. Nor is it anarchy.

Nobody will get on with everyone, and stuff like this is frustratin!

If people leave, how are we supposed to continue to learn and grow? NOBODY wants a forum filled with yesyesyes in response to every single statement! What's the point???

 Brad is a good guy. I'm a goin a miss his input. Those views were necessary here.



The point is....it's more than just WAVES....it's something else....things are deffinately different around here...not just certain threads but this whole Forum...whether you want to believe it or not, accept it or not ,it's there...the facts. You may not even know what I'm talking about....I don't want to mention names or certain things that have happened in here...

It's really sad when a few of us can SEE what it is...yeah,most of you can continue to go on...meet each other,being silly here and there...whatever turns you on...but the true meaning behind it all and a lot of things that were original to this Forum is now gone....and yeah...I've heard so many of you...in PM's to me,or whatever...say..."Nellie,no one expected all this to stay on forever...things change,people change"...well,no shit,Sherlock...as if I fucken didn't know..I wasn't born yesterday....you just don't get it...but I guess the only thing we can do IS move on...how sad is that...when we move on for all the wrong reasons?

Is society accepting as it claims?.....Jesus....are WE ACCEPTING as we claim?....I sit here and wonder...you guys can't even argue right...but who am I to judge you anyway...I'm not...I'm just the gal that sits back and agrees or disagrees in private..knods my head.....wishing I was face to face so I can just shake all of you...you ALL have such interesting points to share...I just can't believe that the differences that you all have,that you all seem to hold a grudge for it...why? Do you or don't you?.....you say you don't when it's all over...when people get all pissed off....am I wrong or right?

This whole fucken Forum is going to be shot to helll if all this continues...among all of us...cuz I ain't no saint...I'm ready to say bye bye too,just like Brad.....who cares anyway..no one....but the truth is...if we want this thread to continue...we want to keep our friendships....think people...is it really worth it?...I guess for some of us is isn't anymore...it's beginning to be too much work....too much moderating against certain folks...certain things said, or unsaid...it's just all bullshit now...sorry...but it's true!
 
Nellie

MOD...I suspect this will be moderated too........sorry Lance
Title: Re: Is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: estefue on October 17, 2007, 09:41:27 AM
Nellie, we all have choices -staying or going, accepting or not.  Society has made some progress, but at times it seems as if we go backwards more often.  The forum itself is like society, changing and adapting and in many ways we are not the same people we were when we first joined.  But can we take what we have learned and show others around us?  If society won't accept, we need to lead by example.
Title: Re: Is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: mcnell1120 on October 17, 2007, 11:46:32 AM
Ah Esteban.....sometimes leading by example is so hard when you can't even figure out which example it is you're representing...!!

What kills me the most is that I never really knew that a lot of issues where among yourselves...and how can the straight world be so accepting when you guys can't even accept yourselves....I'm not saying ALL of you....but still.

I guess it just isn't my place....I'm not fretting over it anymore...I'll just continue to be just as I am...accepting no matter what and tolerating....and trying to raise my kids that way...the rest is up to you guys...take it or leave it!

Peace

Nellie
Title: Re: Is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Brokeback_1 on October 17, 2007, 01:05:40 PM
Apparently this has brought out a lot of frustration.
So where can frustration be talked about?
Title: Re: Is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Jeff Wrangler on October 17, 2007, 01:07:54 PM
Apparently this has brought out a lot of frustration.
So where can frustration be talked about?

Indeed. On this thread, heaven forbid, it's off topic.
Title: Re: Is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: mcnell1120 on October 17, 2007, 01:12:44 PM
Apparently this has brought out a lot of frustration.
So where can frustration be talked about?

Pick up a phone I guess.....God forbid.....or e-mails

Title: Re: Is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Brokeback_1 on October 17, 2007, 01:32:09 PM
Well there has to be SOMEplace. I mean hell, every person I know who isn't nvolved in the day-to day running is frustrated. There has to be SOME sort of thread!
Title: Re: Is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: mcnell1120 on October 17, 2007, 01:34:13 PM
Okay then...start your own Forum with no moderators...see how that works!!
Title: Re: Is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: michaelflanagansf on October 17, 2007, 01:42:44 PM
Well there has to be SOMEplace. I mean hell, every person I know who isn't nvolved in the day-to day running is frustrated. There has to be SOME sort of thread!

You do know there's a 'Start your own thread' section here, right?

And by the way - if you think posting is frustrating consider what moderating is like.  It's an entirely thankless job.  It's one of the reasons I'm ceasing to be a moderator next month.
Title: Re: Is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: chapeaugris on October 17, 2007, 01:56:51 PM
That's right, just start a thread with an appropriate title where the debate can be continued by those who still have something to say. Maybe even leave it unmoderated? Members can enter at their own risk.
Title: Re: Is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Brokeback_1 on October 17, 2007, 01:59:24 PM
No, michael, I meant direction as a whole, not moderating and not posting. I have always been surprised there is no thread about that where suggestions can be made. It might be useful. Certainly, it would have interest.
 
Insofar as mods and moderating on this dump <G> go, I know enough mods to understand quite well what a miserable job it can  sometimes be. It takes a lot of unpaid work, and a lot of dedication. The frustration level can be very high. I admire most of you very much.

If posters can be  frustrated, mods can be doubly frustrated. There are some very hard modjobs.
Title: Re: Is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Brokeback_1 on October 17, 2007, 02:09:40 PM
That's right, just start a thread with an appropriate title where the debate can be continued by those who still have something to say. Maybe even leave it unmoderated? Members can enter at their own risk.
What debate?

There IS no debate. There is commentary stemming from  an apparent frustration level, which was ignited when a certain person left the forum. And that's it.
Do  you suggest starting a thread about why that person left? ? ?
That would be  his business, and that of the mods he asked to delete his account.

When you come down to it chapeau, I have  no idea what you are talking about. Why would we want or need unmoderated threads to enter at one's own risk?
Title: Re: Is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: BrokenOkie on October 17, 2007, 02:12:14 PM
That's right, just start a thread with an appropriate title where the debate can be continued by those who still have something to say. Maybe even leave it unmoderated? Members can enter at their own risk.

No threads on this forum are unmoderated.  Fact of life.
Title: Re: Is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Brokeback_1 on October 17, 2007, 02:43:39 PM
yep
Title: Re: Is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: chapeaugris on October 17, 2007, 03:33:50 PM
There IS no debate. There is commentary stemming from  an apparent frustration level, which was ignited when a certain person left the forum. And that's it.
Do  you suggest starting a thread about why that person left? ? ?
That would be  his business, and that of the mods he asked to delete his account.

When you come down to it chapeau, I have  no idea what you are talking about. Why would we want or need unmoderated threads to enter at one's own risk?
I meant a thread to replace the masculinity thread that was closed, with a title that was less inflammatory.

The unmoderated thread suggestion was just a joke.
Title: Re: Is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: estefue on October 17, 2007, 04:10:22 PM
Sorry, but that debate remains closed as per Dave's decision and will not be reopened.  What about PM's to discuss that particularl frustration?  Those are and will remain unmoderated and private.
Title: Re: Is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: jim ... on October 17, 2007, 05:16:36 PM
The only dialogue allowed here is one that centers around the topic of the thread.  Anyone new visiting this forum and interested in the topic should not have to wade through posts of complaints. It's simply not fair to them or any other member that really wishes to discuss the topic of the thread.  Staying on topic is one of the first rules that Dave set up when he started this forum.  I wouldn't think that staying on topic is a difficult a rule to follow, although some apparently are unable to do so. 

1)   The administration and moderators only  delete the accounts of members that continually break the rules.  If a member decides to leave, it is his or her decision and their decision only.

2)   Complaints should be taken to pm's / email or the phone. 

3)   Moderating seems to be a thankless job. I have been a moderator here almost since the forum started and I can count on one  hand the number of times a member has actually thanked me for moderating.  More often we hear: "Your not moderating fairly" or "Be careful what you post because it will be moderated" .... etc. The list goes on!  It's a judgement call here folks and often you may not  agree with our position but Meli would not have asked us to be moderators, if she didn't think we showed a good sense of judgement.  As Dave has stated, if you have a problem with a moderator, take it to Meli or him.  Let's not use up space on this thread to complain about it.

I feel that Estefue and myself have always given members a fairly wide berth for discussion on the masc. thread and this one. Neither of us is one to moderate heavily.  When we do post, we're barraged with complaints and criticism.  We're really damned if we do, and damned if we don't.  Try putting yourselves in our shoes for a day or two.

I actually think the topic of this thread could foster great debate ... not bickering, not attacks, not complaints and not criticism of "how" the thread is moderated or the state of the forum ... but is society really accepting of us?  How do we really define society?  Do certain sectors of our society influence ofthers?  Is society more accepting in Europe as opposed to the USA?  If so, why? How should we go about promoting that acceptance?  I'm sure you all will come up many more quesions/aspects of this topic. 

OK .... I'm done for now.  Please don't pm me with thanks for the job we're all doing. That's not the reason for this post.  If you have real concerns, please do let me or any other mod know. Believe me when I say that we really do want to help.  Thanks for listening.  jim ...
Title: Re: Is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Brokeback_1 on October 17, 2007, 08:22:12 PM
Not for nothing, Jim and Estefue, I have GREAT  empathy for anyone who moderated that miserable  thread you just mentioned. It was an abortion, a thankless thread to moderate and anybody who did mod that thing had to have  giant cojones and the patience of a saint.  I don't know anyone who would want to see that thing reopened, it did nothing but hurt feelings. It should never have been set up the way it was in the first place. It divided by the very title.  It grew from a divisive argument on the old Masc and Brokeback thread and divided ever after. The very word masculinity raises hackles!

 What freaks me out is that in the space of hours, THIS thread went from general frustration over 'things'  to some believing there are people who want that abortion reopened. It's better off dead, we are better off it's dead and I, me, personally would think  TPTB had finally lost their minds if it was reopened.
 Generally I HAVE QUALMS IF A CONTROVERSIAL THREAD IS CLOSED. [ I think you know that, and also think you know WHY.]

In this case??

   CONGRATULATIONS, THANK YOU & WHAT TOOK SO LONG lolol? 
and that's from someone who posted on it, too!


It confused me for maybe 5 minutes, then I cheered and started thinking of something forum-unifying and constructive  which could  be done, by me, as a response to that  decision and started speaking with people....


There are a lot of , and a lot pleasanter,  discussions which can take place on the particular subject of gay and bisexual manhood within ourselves>>>discussions which won't give moderators ulcers or divide  posters and leave  everyone involved with a foul taste....

I have yet to meet anyone who wants it reopened or thinks it was a bad decision to close it, so where does the masc thread  even come in and come up today??

I personally equate it with the film CRASH: Dead, Buried, And Goooood Riddance!

People complain about individual mods. I know I do. In addition, I also understand very well what a unpaid thankless unpaid service [unpaid--did I say unpaid??] mods perform for every single one of us. Don't mistake a complaint or a request for explanations as someone not appreciating what you do or something personal, for that usually ain't the case. I frequent elements and scenes, where the mods are an integral part of a very contentious family which nonetheless manages to get along. We appreciate the moderation. Sure there are some personality conflicts but they will be found any and everywhere when dealing with such a diverse group--and that group includes moderators.. I have a lot of respect for the job done. From everything my friends who mod tell me, it is a lot of work. Maybe MORE moderators are needed to lighten the load. There are qualified members all over this forum who would happily help.



*** after all this time, I  know  of nowhere on this forum where you can post something like this and stay on topic. A suggestion thread, or a forum comments thread or SOMETHING. IS there such a thread? I don't know of one. And if there isn't, wouldn't it be a good idea to open one?
Title: Re: Is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: zth on October 18, 2007, 01:55:33 AM
I have yet to meet anyone who wants it reopened or thinks it was a bad decision to close it, so where does the masc thread  even come in and come up today??

I am someone, who wants it reopened. I even tried to start my own thread, as a continuity

of this topic, but it was deleted, for the reasons mentioned above. The thing is, that I now happened

to want to post some questions and thoughts on this topic, and I simply can't   :(

And I really had no idea about those fights, and it is too sad to see anybody leaving this forum   :(
Title: Re: Is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Nax on October 18, 2007, 07:07:28 AM
I have yet to meet anyone who wants it reopened or thinks it was a bad decision to close it, so where does the masc thread  even come in and come up today??

I am someone, who wants it reopened. I even tried to start my own thread, as a continuity

of this topic, but it was deleted, for the reasons mentioned above. The thing is, that I now happened

to want to post some questions and thoughts on this topic, and I simply can't   :(

And I really had no idea about those fights, and it is too sad to see anybody leaving this forum   :(

PM the moderator for advice.
Title: Re: Is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: zth on October 18, 2007, 07:44:06 AM
I've done that.

The answer is final : That topic won't ever be discussed again   :(

Oh well.... Anyway. Thanx Nax.
Title: Re: Is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Jeff Wrangler on October 18, 2007, 12:59:21 PM
I am someone, who wants it reopened. I even tried to start my own thread, as a continuity

of this topic, but it was deleted, for the reasons mentioned above. The thing is, that I now happened

to want to post some questions and thoughts on this topic, and I simply can't   :(

And I really had no idea about those fights, and it is too sad to see anybody leaving this forum   :(

I've done that.

The answer is final : That topic won't ever be discussed again   :(


Interesting. Giving me some things to think about.
Title: Re: Is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: victorio on October 18, 2007, 01:13:10 PM
If we could convince Jack and Ennis to appear as guests on the forum(prolly have to tire iron em senseless to get em here...and can't you just see Ennis mumbling "I ain't no queer" while he glares like its the 4th of July and you just said something naughty in front of his daughters)and asked them to pick somebody to go elk-hunting with...they would probably pick Brad.

Or AJ or Crow.  The people that IMO most captured the spirit of J&E are bailing.

Monte
Title: Re: Is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: gavern on October 18, 2007, 01:42:39 PM
I think the question here should be: "Are WE really as accepting as WE claim", if there's anything I have firmly learn't it is that the world is complete reflection of who you are. Of course this doesn't mean it's easy to change elements of society that are so far back in time or just plainly ignorant, but it can help when we decide how we are going to respond instead of react. For me it was releasing undertows of a religious upbringing and instead embracing a Universal spiritual foundation.
Title: Re: Is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Lola on October 18, 2007, 01:56:35 PM
I think there are always elements of society that aren't going to be accepting. Not accepting to gay people, minorities, women, people who are overweight, people who are a different religion than them, the list is endless.

And attitudes run different from state to state, province to province, country to country.  So how can we answer?

I think at the end of the day yes we can only ask are we as accepting as we claim?  I know I am, and more importantly I have raised my children to be accepting, as I was raised.

The Golden Rule..............treat others as you would like to be treated.

Title: Re: Is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: gavern on October 18, 2007, 02:04:11 PM
Hi Lola I think that you desreve praise for instilling such love in your children, very admirable indeed, and I agree, treat as you wish to be treated. I love my so much for being accepting and for teaching me to accept when I was a young boy.
Title: Re: Is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Cletis on October 18, 2007, 02:06:25 PM
I just got my research accepted for publication in the British Journal of Health Psychology. The results suggest that writing about gay stress can buffer the negative effects of stress on physical health.  It was a pity that we had to shut down whole topics rather than find different ways to talk about them.

I will put the abstract of the article on a separate thread.
Title: Re: Is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Lola on October 18, 2007, 03:36:57 PM
Hi Lola I think that you desreve praise for instilling such love in your children, very admirable indeed, and I agree, treat as you wish to be treated. I love my so much for being accepting and for teaching me to accept when I was a young boy.

Well I grew up in a very liberal family.  In Canada, in the 70s and my Parents were alway of the live and let live philosophy.  Not that we knew alot of gay people back then who were "out".   My kids on the other hand have never known anything but.

I told the story on here once about a friend coming out to my son and some of his friends a few years ago, they looked at him like he was nuts "they said, haven't you been gay since the 8th grade" and that was basically the end of the conversation! lol

They are in their early 20's now and we even have one gay friend who hits on the youngest one every time he sees him.  My son sees him coming and just runs!  :D
Title: Re: Is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Brokeback_1 on October 18, 2007, 10:43:41 PM
If we could convince Jack and Ennis to appear as guests on the forum(prolly have to tire iron em senseless to get em here...and can't you just see Ennis mumbling "I ain't no queer" while he glares like its the 4th of July and you just said something naughty in front of his daughters)and asked them to pick somebody to go elk-hunting with...they would probably pick Brad.

Or AJ or Crow.  The people that IMO most captured the spirit of J&E are bailing.

Monte
Not true roflmao!

Two of the least likely men on the Forum are planning a November Elk Hunt [photographic Elk Hunt] up in the Big Horns.
Me and John Beene.
Since we are clueless, my wife is teaching minor details, like how to start a fire and get that tent to look raght.
Title: Re: Is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: michaelflanagansf on October 19, 2007, 12:57:51 AM
What are November Elk?
Title: Re: Is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: michaelflanagansf on October 19, 2007, 12:59:11 AM
This should answer any questions about whether or not society is accepting - and why it never claimed to be:

http://www.proudparenting.com/node/890
Title: Re: Is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Brokeback_1 on October 19, 2007, 02:08:43 AM
that's a good article. There are people one avoids and avoids telling things because they are repulsive humans. And that is as an adult. As a child it has got to be very very hard, they can be awful. My nephew needed pre-k to deal with a very high autism in the speech center, and it was of course a special pre-k. In a real one some bully would have hurt him. For a kid with same sex parents it can be very hard, same reason, kids are awful at times.

ah, a November Elk is an elk you find in November, when you go take pics of it. Which reminds me, need to call and say I have the tent.
Title: Re: Is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Jeff Wrangler on October 19, 2007, 06:26:20 AM
What are November Elk?

A very rare breed, not to be confused with an October Elk or a December Elk. They only appear for 30 days each year.  ;)
Title: Re: Is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: gavern on October 19, 2007, 11:52:46 AM
Even more reason not to kill them but rather admire their beauty? Like taking beautiful pictures, wow you're lucky I wish I was going! ;)  I wouldn't mind seeing one close up though.
Title: Re: Is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: milomorris on October 19, 2007, 01:43:56 PM
Even more reason not to kill them but rather admire their beauty? Like taking beautiful pictures, wow you're lucky I wish I was going! ;)  I wouldn't mind seeing one close up though.

Well...OK...but I still have to wonder what they taste like.

  ;D >:D
Title: Re: Is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: gavern on October 19, 2007, 01:55:31 PM
Even more reason not to kill them but rather admire their beauty? Like taking beautiful pictures, wow you're lucky I wish I was going! ;)  I wouldn't mind seeing one close up though.

Well...OK...but I still have to wonder what they taste like.

  ;D >:D

Well I'd imagine they would taste similar to a cow or horse or dog, or maybe human?
Title: Re: Is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Brokeback_1 on October 19, 2007, 02:06:47 PM
no.
dogs taste like dog. ask the koreans; ask the french about the taste of horse. ask the chinese about the taste of cat, and.... humans taste like pork.

<<<<runs from thread


while going up north on an elk hunt is a direct outgrowth of how BB affected me, hunting talk is so OT we should do PM's
Title: Re: Is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: michaelflanagansf on October 19, 2007, 02:16:22 PM
\
Well...OK...but I still have to wonder what they taste like.

  ;D >:D

Chicken.  With antlers.
Title: Re: Is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: gavern on October 19, 2007, 02:26:39 PM
I know this might have been asked before, but are people still anti-gay where Brokeback mountain was supposed to take place?
Title: Re: Is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: john john on October 19, 2007, 03:05:28 PM
I know this might have been asked before, but are people still anti-gay where Brokeback mountain was supposed to take place?

I hear that the movie was not particularly well received in Wyoming. As for being anti gay, well, I guess they have work to do like any where else.
Title: Re: Is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: michaelflanagansf on October 19, 2007, 11:53:26 PM
I know this might have been asked before, but are people still anti-gay where Brokeback mountain was supposed to take place?

Gavern, I'm hoping that Jack (Brokeback_1) will be able to address this for you - or that he will get his friend Adam to - both of them have been to Wyoming often since the movie has been out and I think they would be the best people to answer this question. 

It is important to remember that there was play about the Matthew Shepherd incident called 'The Laramie Project' that deals specifically with homophobia in Wyoming:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Laramie_Project

There is also a film called 'Laramie Inside Out' which deals with this topic:

http://www.tucsonweekly.com/gbase/arts/Content?oid=oid:53971

http://www.lariat.org/AtTheMovies/new/larainout.html

Here is the Wyoming Equality page:

http://www.wyomingequality.org/

Here is the web site for Spectrum - the University of Wyoming LGBT organization:

http://uwacadweb.uwyo.edu/SPECTRUM/

Here is the Wyoming AIDS Walk page:

http://www.wyoaidswalk.org/

Here is the Wyoming AIDS Education & Training Center:

http://www.wyaetc.org/

Any of these organizations might be a good place to ask your question too.
Title: Re: Is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Brokeback_1 on October 20, 2007, 01:21:19 AM
Adam, and frontranger, know about and have been to a lot more of  WY then I have. I'm partial to the eastern part of the state and southern Wyoming, myself. But I do have to say this re  Laramie: it is a very liberal and in plain English a very wierd small town of about 28,000 people including students.
Very peculiar.
Proulxlian as a matter of fact.
No way in hell I'd live in Laramie and my wife abhors the place. It has this feeling of I don't-know-what about it. It's just ODD, a very wierd place. That might be because if you couldn't import food you would starve to death. Nothing grows there. Nothing. It might be because the University had IM Pei build a westernised form of the Louvre Pyramid on the High Plains. First thing you see coming over the pass at night, this gigantic glittering glass pyramid.

At any rate it is one wierd place.

It is very proud of itself, its' university and that Pyramid. And very wierd.

The 2 guys who killed Matt Shepherd were from the outlying areas and from what I have heard they went out looking for a small easily out-manned student with money. To ROB. Both had had homosexual experiences, and at least one was in a deep closet. They were on meth, which leads to very violent acts anywhere. It appears that it got very much out of hand, that there was sex involved and the one who was very closeted--but had had a number of experiences in denver, etc,-- flipped when Matt Shepherd said something to him along the lines of: "you had no problem, why are you doing this now" re a robbery. IMHO that all says a lot.

All heard sotto voce, all heard from Laramie people.  THERE WERE A LOT OF REACTIONS BUT IN THE MAIN PEOPLE WERE HORRIFIED.  There were some, said he got what he deserved. And I should point out I heard the same thing in NYC.

Regarding anything gay, it is not really spoken of up there in WY. There are no gay clubs in Wyoming, although I sometimes wonder if it would even be economically feasible as the state is the size of the UK and has 440,000 people. It's HUGE.

There ARE gay cowboys, more then you would think,  I know some in the general Cheyenne area. And if I might say this, every one in that whole bunch attracts NOTICE, they look like posters of movie star cowboys., damned good lookin!They say they don't flaunt it don't hide it and don't have a problem. They also say they are not worried about attacks, but may well get a cold shoulder depending upon the PERSON they are dealing with. They mostly don't care. At the same time when I invited them to come down and meet the brokies at Estes Park,they  each said no, we don't want to meet gay men from away, and 2 mentioned Nathan Lane [I kid you not] with horror. They do not like tradition stereotypes. You would know if they told you and that's the truth, although of course you can pick up a vibe .

I know personally a couple of real bible thumping ranchers who had gay ranch hands, partnered up, working their spreads. They didn't care. Wouldn't support 'gayness' on religious grounds but would never have said or done anything but treat them as the people they were. It's still live and let live up there. And I think the human connection is what matters. If you are a louse, get out, if you are a good guy, welcome.

My wife's grandmother had gay cowboys on her place here on Colorado. She loved those guys, they were there until they died and if aanyone had made so much as a comment she would have set a dog on them. And she did have men who wanted to know WHO over the years whom she told to go to hell. Just died a few years ago at age 99.

Up in Montana, the state neighboring to the north, my late aunt said they had a gay ranch hand during the years she spent out here after the war >>>>and that he was the only one there who knew how to cook. Said my god, what that man could do to a leg of lamb.....LOL

Young straight males? They seem not to care in WY, and care slightly more in  parts of CO if someone is gay. And even in CO they care more in awful places like the Springs. Denver doesn;t give a damned, you should see Gay Night at the diner, it's a hoot.

"Reality's never been much use up here"

for what it's worth
Title: Re: Is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Brokeback_1 on October 20, 2007, 01:29:41 AM
Oh, I should point out my favourite town anywhere is Cheyenne, Wyoming. Now, Cheyenne  outweirds Laramie by a long shot. However it's a COOOOL weird.

There is more "Weird" with a capital 'W' per capita in Cheyenne then there is on the West Side of Manhattan.

Love the place. Stems from having the nations nuclear stockpile literally underneath their feet, and 'The Wind'. Which, if you ask around, is caused by methane from cowfarts.
Title: Re: Is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: gavern on October 20, 2007, 02:46:58 AM
Wow, what incredible stories, I'm so endeared! Thank you. Looks like I have some hope after all, because i long to live away, from the city ~ maybe I'll visit there someday soon.
Title: Re: Is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: michaelflanagansf on October 20, 2007, 10:50:44 AM
Love the place. Stems from having the nations nuclear stockpile literally underneath their feet, and 'The Wind'. Which, if you ask around, is caused by methane from cowfarts.

Oh!  That explains a lot.  I've noticed there's a wind that blows through my apartment when I long on to the forum sometimes....
Title: Re: Is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: gattaca on October 20, 2007, 01:04:10 PM

Is society accepting as it claims?.....Jesus....are WE ACCEPTING as we claim?....I sit here and wonder...you guys can't even argue right...but who am I to judge you anyway...I'm not...I'm just the gal that sits back and agrees or disagrees in private..knods my head.....wishing I was face to face so I can just shake all of you...you ALL have such interesting points to share...I just can't believe that the differences that you all have,that you all seem to hold a grudge for it...why? Do you or don't you?.....you say you don't when it's all over...when people get all pissed off....am I wrong or right?

This whole fucken Forum is going to be shot to helll if all this continues...among all of us...cuz I ain't no saint...I'm ready to say bye bye too,just like Brad.....who cares anyway..no one....but the truth is...if we want this thread to continue...we want to keep our friendships....think people...is it really worth it?...I guess for some of us is isn't anymore...it's beginning to be too much work....too much moderating against certain folks...certain things said, or unsaid...it's just all bullshit now...sorry...but it's true!
 
Nellie

Nellie, Jim, Dave and others,   

I return from a RL week of hell thinking I'm going to sit down, relax and catch up on one of my fav discussions and what do I find... another round of postings which prompted another round of censorship and deletions, complete with another long time member exiting. All  of this is very disappointing as this constant posting and deleting of posts clearly shows WE are NOT as accepting as we claim to be.... Dave and the mods have established sensible rules for civility within DC and there's a clear benefit to having mods, as long as they don't go overboard.  Mods, this is not an attack on your services - I value your work, but honestly, you have given me pause lately to question the voracity in which you are deleting anything which could even hint at an idea or whiff of anything from the assinated or deceased (depending on your PoV)  G/M thread.    I have yet to understand why we are having such a difficult time following the rules. Perhaps the rawness and messages within BBM, that little film which assembled us all together here initially in pain, have been lost or forgotten or numbed? Everyone should stop and ask yourselves --> Have we forgotten why we ARE HERE?

I know why I'm here as I've been around since that early Nov/Dec before Dave moved the forum first time.  I made donations to our Variety AD, have personally placed many DVDs and sometimes books when the lib didn't lend DVDs around the US - all using my own cash because I believe in what this film means and what this group is doing. I have given friends copies of our "Beyond Brokeback" and even placed some of those in libs too.  However, I'm starting to wonder and be afraid we, as a group, are slipping down a very steep slope in that out BBM community is losing much of the diversity and acceptance which gave us strength initially.   I have to agree with Nellie and several others who are lurking or have been silenced.  I sense an escalating divisive pattern of nonacceptance by those with ideas or opinions different than our own and it troubles me.  Is "my way or the highway" really how we are operating?  Who does that sound like?  I'll leave you to decide but it should not take more than 1 guess.

Have we stopped trusting each other to "do the right thing" and more importantly trusting each other as some of the very FEW people who really appreciate and understand the torrent of threads running thru BBM?  That connection should be unbreakable, yet it is fracturing.   As some of the few who know or are a Jack or Ennis, don't we all need to voice our opinion and be heard all within the bounds of civility?   

I'm sitting here, shaking my head about the fact that the one film which has impacted our lives so deeply is now very thing that is tearing us apart.  We came here to share our lives with people who could understand, people who would accept us, warts and all for who we are - knowing we were not all going to have the same stories and that's part of what draws us here.   We all originate from different backgrounds and cultures and morals and upbringing and social and political climates, we all have different histories and challenges and yet we are suppose to know enough and to have respect for each other to know that we will never always agree but that does NOT mean we should stop talking, stop sharing ideas, stop making plans to see each other, stop discussing "more difficult" topics or resort to attacking posters or deleting posts to silence a discussion or driving away members b/c we may not agree with their PoV or posts.  As long as those posts are not attacking anyone or filled with hateful remarks toward another member or group or in general being an complete ass wipe, discussion should be encouraged.  We need freedom of expression for democracy to survive else we'd move somewhere where those freedoms and the exchange of ideas and viewpoints is forbidden - there are plenty of places in the world for that - but NOT HERE.   Are we forgetting how to be civil team players as members of DC?

You know, while I'm not a fan of recent Supreme Court rulings, I did read a recent Time article which stopped me cold b/c it was talking about how the dynamics of the court has changed to where the Justices have been actually going to lunch together and exchanging ideas and talking, rather than being walled up in their offices - and its not necessarily lunch along the infamous 5-4 split.   The Time article conveyed that while the members  may not agree with other's PoV, they are still talking about the subjects at hand, discussing and learning from them and they also know how to say they respectfully disagree with each other on certain issues - but they do keep talking, keep moving, keep debating and keep having lunch.  If we, as members of DC,  don't talk, we cannot learn and I cannot say the same thing for what's happing here.  It seems from our current actions that it may be easier to silence a discussion or anything which sounds like a discussion about said discussions than to let the market forces in play handle the situation.  If people don't want to talk about something, they won't.. if they do, no amount of censorship or deleting of posts will stop the conversations.   It's only going to make people leave until one day we wake up and find only a shell of what we had remaining. Oh wait, was I transported to Myanmar? OK that's a bit of an exaggeration, but it is a slippery slope on which we stand here and that's my point.

While I admit the now deceased G/M thread was a more difficult thread b/c it generated a lot of discussions and opposing viewpoints and at times anger toward posters, but hey that's part of life, we learn to work out differences...about a range of subjects - we learn how to compromise and sadly, there's not enough compromise present in the US today - we are acting like spoiled kids who don't get their way.   What I've never understood is why so many people, including the mods, took the thread so personally.   Do I agree with everything said in DC - obviously NOT.  Do I think it is a place for those of us who LOVE BBM and what it means to us to share our lives and make friends whom we may never lay eyes on - YES.  Do I follow every thread here?  No - only the ones which interest me or ones I feel I can contribute to - like this one.  Do I think we should be so quick to judge the mods or posters - no especially if we are not allowed to read the discussions.  ;)   

Obviously, I am much more "liberal" in my acceptance of what constitutes an exchange of ideas and I sincerely hope that our leaders will have an intervention meeting about the current levels of  moderation happening here... before the entire BBM DC community does indeed become the very thing, we all sought to free ourselves from when we joined - a nonaccepting society at large.  We are dangerously close to becoming just another meaningless collection of homogeneous people - without challenges to our own ideas and most importantly without diversity which is one of the key elements which keeps me grounded here.  I like to read the varying viewpoints, the varying discussions - it makes me think, it makes me feel alive, it makes my brain wake up and challenge itself to something different. 

In closing, I want to encourage Dave, each of our mods  and anyone reading this append (if it survives to be read.. and believe it or not I have my doubts, will see)... to spend 104 mins and watch this lecture from Dr. Randy Pausche who was ABC's Person of the Week from 9/21.   In summary, he delivered a motivating lecture which conveys some of life's lessons we each need to be reminded of occasionally - just like with BBM - just like Jack and Ennis, just like when we had a dream to tell the world that BBM was the "Best Picture of the Year..."   I urge you to invest your time to view this lecture - grab your favorite beverage, turn off the TV, load this into your browser and watch it.   It should cause you to pause and think about what we have done here, how we did it as a team, what we have shared and learned from our mentors, why we have those mentors and where we should be going - together.

----> mms://wms.andrew.cmu.edu/001/pausch.wmv

Later,
Vincent
Title: Re: Is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Flyboy on October 20, 2007, 02:40:17 PM
Excellent post Vincent! I agree, if we are to grow, to learn, and move forward, it will have to be together, or not at all. IMHO, and I have said this to other members, we are all the same deep, deep down. We all have been affected by this book and film. We all want or have that one special person in our lives, someone to share with, to love, to laugh, to know passion, and most of all, to trust, for without trust, well, what do you have? I for one, enjoy reading lively discussions, and different points of view, as long as it doesn't get personal; it should foster new thoughts and ideas, new ways to look at life. I'm constantly amazed at the members here and their ablility to articulate thoughts so well, I only wish I had that gift, I hate to see such such wonderful postings be denied............. 
Title: Re: Is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: ChrisW on October 20, 2007, 02:55:45 PM
sorry, this does not follow on, but was wondering where to put this 'Dumbledore outed as gay' link, do we still have a Harry Potter thread ?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/7053982.stm

Oh - and Vincent!! - great post!! What I have found so special about the Forum is its diversity. The G/M thread was of course controversial, and I suppose I would not have wanted the Mod job, but still..  :o
Title: Re: Is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: gavern on October 20, 2007, 03:29:14 PM
Nice post Vincent! Yes the Universe is indeed unfolding as it should and just by your words it makes me realize just how special each and every human is, we are all one, so complex yet so simple in what we all desire ~ Love, the root of all. Even at the root of the most twisted and disturbed human is the light of love, recognizing where the pain started helps me be kinder and more compassionate. What I learnt so far, is that everything I used to despise, was actually a part of me, not anyone else, but their are many teachers and hence now I love what I used to hate and I become more "whole", if one wants the darkness to go, simply turn on the light. ;)
Title: Re: Is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Brokeback_1 on October 20, 2007, 06:43:34 PM
cool post vincent!
Title: Re: Is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: victorio on October 20, 2007, 06:55:10 PM
Great post vincent.  I need to hire you as a ghost writer.   I had a couple of those same thoughts myself but didn't know how to get em said.  Good job.

Monte
Title: Re: Is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Brokeback_1 on October 21, 2007, 01:16:20 AM

Oh - and Vincent!! - great post!! What I have found so special about the Forum is its diversity. The G/M thread was of course controversial, and I suppose I would not have wanted the Mod job, but still..  :o

just be grateful it was finally closed,as it was divisive. Very. And IMHO there are too many centrifugal forces at work here as it is.
Title: Re: Is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Jeff Wrangler on October 21, 2007, 04:27:35 PM
There ARE gay cowboys, more then you would think,  I know some in the general Cheyenne area. And if I might say this, every one in that whole bunch attracts NOTICE, they look like posters of movie star cowboys., damned good lookin!They say they don't flaunt it don't hide it and don't have a problem. They also say they are not worried about attacks, but may well get a cold shoulder depending upon the PERSON they are dealing with. They mostly don't care. At the same time when I invited them to come down and meet the brokies at Estes Park,they  each said no, we don't want to meet gay men from away, and 2 mentioned Nathan Lane [I kid you not] with horror. They do not like tradition stereotypes. You would know if they told you and that's the truth, although of course you can pick up a vibe .

Who does this remind me of. ...  >:D

And it's very good anecdotal evidence that toleration is an issue even among gay men.  :-\
Title: Re: Is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: twtplanner on October 21, 2007, 04:36:11 PM
Vince, thanks for that post.  very good words, and aptly stated.  I no longer post in threads of, for lack of a better word, substance, for the very reasons you punctuated.  I do continue to read the posts and have thoughts about various topics and issues.  However, my take and ideas on subjects, along with those with whom I agreed, were regularly labeled as divisive or taken out of context and misapplied, and for other reasons that can't be spoken of here, it pretty much killed it for me. 

I'm not sure, but think it was Brad, who wrote (I'm paraphrasing) several pages back that one has to accept themselves first, before being able to move ahead.  Acceptance, in this context, of course means accepting gays in society at-large.  I think it can be broadened to mean acceptance of the individual, straight, gay, along with the ideas they bring with them, not meaning you have to or should, agree with them, but allow them to have them.  It's my hope too Vince, the good members of this forum, heed your good words and recall the impact and lessons of the BBM story.   

terry
Title: Re: Is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Brokeback_1 on October 22, 2007, 04:19:47 AM
Terry that was really from the heart. It made me think.

and Jeff:

LMAOOOOO!!!!!

[and yeah.....]
Title: Re: Is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: milomorris on October 22, 2007, 06:56:10 AM
I return from a RL week of hell thinking I'm going to sit down, relax and catch up on one of my fav discussions and what do I find... another round of postings which prompted another round of censorship and deletions, complete with another long time member exiting.

(etc.)

Thank you, Vincent, for writing this. Your post holds up a much-needed mirror to DCF and many of its members. I think everyone in cyberspace should read what you wrote here because online communities almost always experience the kind of phenomenon about which you speak.

Milo
Title: Re: Is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: milomorris on October 22, 2007, 07:12:34 AM
At the same time when I invited them to come down and meet the brokies at Estes Park,they  each said no, we don't want to meet gay men from away, and 2 mentioned Nathan Lane [I kid you not] with horror. They do not like tradition stereotypes.

And it's very good anecdotal evidence that toleration is an issue even among gay men.  :-\

Yes, Jeff. Tolerance is an issue for everyone. Any person is going to be more tolerant of others with whom they share more in common than with other with whom they share less in common. That is the way humans are. The only common ground these cowboys see between themselves and "gay men from away" is sexual orientation. The Nathan Lanes of the world live in ways that are very different from these cowboys...as do most urban Americans regardless of sexual orientation. So I'm not at all surprised or disheartened by their response.

Milo
Title: Re: Is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Jeff Wrangler on October 22, 2007, 08:59:51 AM
Yes, Jeff. Tolerance is an issue for everyone. Any person is going to be more tolerant of others with whom they share more in common than with other with whom they share less in common. That is the way humans are. The only common ground these cowboys see between themselves and "gay men from away" is sexual orientation. The Nathan Lanes of the world live in ways that are very different from these cowboys...as do most urban Americans regardless of sexual orientation. So I'm not at all surprised or disheartened by their response.

Milo

I'm not surprised, either, but I will admit to being disheartened. Call me naive, or whatever--you'd think I'd be over it by my age--but I find intolerance always disheartening.  :-\
Title: Re: Is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: milomorris on October 22, 2007, 09:39:44 AM
I'm not surprised, either, but I will admit to being disheartened. Call me naive, or whatever--you'd think I'd be over it by my age--but I find intolerance always disheartening.  :-\

Not that this will make you feel any better (maybe it will), but I have always kinda jokingly said that I could never invite all of my friends to a party because all hell would break loose. The reason being that I have friends who are so different from each other that some of those differences would inevitably cause conflicts, and some of these friends would not get along with others. Different friends bring different things to the table. Some friends are great company at a baseball game, while others are better company at the art museum.

Because no one person can be all things to all people, I tend to focus on the the qualities about a given person that I like, and tolerate the qualities that I don't like. If the qualities that I don't like outweigh the ones that I do like, you're probably not going to be a friend, but rather an acquaintance of some degree.

I also remember when I was living in Lincoln, Nebraska that many people were skeptical of me simply because I was from a big East coast city. And while I was able to make friends with plenty of the natives, there were still things about my "big city ways" that they either didn't understand, or found annoying.

I guess what I'm saying is that acceptance on an individual level is not necessarily an all-or-nothing proposition.

Milo
Title: Re: Is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Jeff Wrangler on October 22, 2007, 11:52:20 AM
Not that this will make you feel any better (maybe it will), but I have always kinda jokingly said that I could never invite all of my friends to a party because all hell would break loose. The reason being that I have friends who are so different from each other that some of those differences would inevitably cause conflicts, and some of these friends would not get along with others. Different friends bring different things to the table. Some friends are great company at a baseball game, while others are better company at the art museum.

Because no one person can be all things to all people, I tend to focus on the the qualities about a given person that I like, and tolerate the qualities that I don't like. If the qualities that I don't like outweigh the ones that I do like, you're probably not going to be a friend, but rather an acquaintance of some degree.

I also remember when I was living in Lincoln, Nebraska that many people were skeptical of me simply because I was from a big East coast city. And while I was able to make friends with plenty of the natives, there were still things about my "big city ways" that they either didn't understand, or found annoying.

I guess what I'm saying is that acceptance on an individual level is not necessarily an all-or-nothing proposition.

Milo

No, it doesn't make me feel any better  ;) but only--no offense--because it's kind of beside the point of what disheartens me. I don't expect all of my friends and acquaintances to like each other, either. Quite a few of the people I know at church wouldn't be comfortable with my leather bar buddies (though quite a few of them actually would  ;) ). What I found disheartening about the gay cowboys that Jack knows was the unwillingness even to meet any of us who were coming out to Colorado for the barbecue. As Jack portrayed these guys, they come off to me as insular (even, it strikes me, kind of snooty, actually, in their own way) and, well, prejudicial and intolerant--and prejudicial and intolerant of fellow homosexuals. That's what I find disheartening.
Title: Re: Is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: mcnell1120 on October 22, 2007, 01:43:55 PM
Vincent,Vincent,Vincent...I applaud you my friend...

Sometimes it's so very hard to put into words what you want to say...what you mean,or how people will take it all...but your words was put together so well....to the point...and I thank you.

Judgement calls are sometimes done incorrectly...maybe it shouldn't of been said that way or this way...but whatever way it's now too late,I'm afraid....but it can continue for the rest...so many of us have lurked for months and months in here...learned from each other...doesn't matter where you live or how you were brought up.

One person in particular once told me,actually,he told me a few times,and said in so many words..."once a month or so,when I feel that I'm forgetting something about our movie,I sit and watch it..it brings me back to the TRUE meaning of why it brought us all together,why it affected me,and what I must do to never forget it".....ugh...and now that person is gone

But that doesn't mean that WE must forget...the rest of us...we shouldn't have to feel that we are no longer wanted or needed....like someone said in here...society has it's ways with people...and this Forum is society in itself....but if we can't speak as we please in here...how do the rest of us behave and speak outside this Forum?....it's so easy to sit here and type away...but do we actually practice what we preach?...are some of us just computer nerds and anti-social in the outside world and can speak one's mind...as brutal as it can get in here only? and leave the outside world alone?...one becomes so comfortable ....

My husband is a social worker and psychologist minor...he loves to break up things into different perspectives...is that the right word?...he likes to see what makes people behave the way they do...family of course is number one...learned behaviors...how your family is...and then society ....how society can mold a person...we are all molded by this...and then our experiences ...but he's always told me..."Nellie,be careful when you join such Forums...people are never what they seem to be...it's easier for them to type away but once you get to know them...boom...it'll be different"......"oh no",I said..."not THIS FORUM....it's different"...man,was he right or what?....shit,i really hate when he's right....it's still a better Forum than those you see out there...but it's changing....and only time will tell now..

Esteban and Jari should understand...right?...you guys studied all this too,no?...how the mind works and all...hmmm

and then we all come in here....all broken up because of this movie...our life's experiences,our tortures,our fears...it gets questioned ,it gets twisted...and it makes us THINK...we disagree and we agree and for those that don't do neither...we sit back and say...damn...I didn't know that...I wish I had said that...or, "Maybe he's right!"...

Vince,I know what you mean when you say..."it makes me feel alive!".....i don't want certain things taken away only because certain people become frustrated and feel they must take action....why?....did someone threaten to sue?....everyone sues one another these days..lol.....

It made me feel alive coming in here and making me think.....if I wanted silly and stupid conversations I'd go somewhere else...if you wanted to make a difference you'd come in here...if you wanted to learn,you'd lurk and listen...try to understand what he means...what she thinks....we will never learn will we....in the outside world of cyberspace....if one pisses us off we walk away...a stranger may say whatever,it's easy to ignore that...but in here...our "safe haven"....we feel threatened..a need to respond....not just us but the mods as well...ALL OF US!!
Don't be so quick to judge...don't be so quick to tell us if we don't like it,leave!!...that's so UNBROKEBACK....know what I mean?

We must tolerate each other...or our world will NEVER change and if you think it will soon,you're full of shit...because it starts here...in our hearts...in this Forum...

Peace

Nellie
Title: Re: Is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: milomorris on October 22, 2007, 01:58:26 PM
What I found disheartening about the gay cowboys that Jack knows was the unwillingness even to meet any of us who were coming out to Colorado for the barbecue. As Jack portrayed these guys, they come off to me as insular (even, it strikes me, kind of snooty, actually, in their own way) and, well, prejudicial and intolerant--and prejudicial and intolerant of fellow homosexuals. That's what I find disheartening.

Ah...I see. I tend to agree with you on that count. While I do not expect anyone to automatically accept or respect me, I do expect them to give me a chance to prove myself. What angers me is when people don't give me a chance because they have already made up their minds about me because of my color or orientation.

Milo
Title: Re: Is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: mcnell1120 on October 22, 2007, 02:14:50 PM

Ah...I see. I tend to agree with you on that count. While I do not expect anyone to automatically accept or respect me, I do expect them to give me a chance to prove myself. What angers me is when people don't give me a chance because they have already made up their minds about me because of my color or orientation.

Milo

Well, I guess we can all say that,can we.....by human nature you can make up one's mind and think.."Oh,they must be this or that"....hmmm...depending on one's ethic background or even if you're a man or a woman..."All woman are the same,you're all emotional"...I've heard THAT one many times before....that erks me...or I"ve heard this one the best..."You Puerto Ricans are all hot tempered,and how come you don't speak with an accent"?.......jeez...the only accent I have is my Chicagoan one.... right away you have to judge me...I have two minorites...being a woman and being Puerto Rican...oh well...and I'm proud of both...don't like it?...kiss my ass....lol....but no...seriously

Judging a book by it's cover is a mortal sin in my eyes....I always tell someone that does that to look for the good things in that person...we all have faults...it all started with Adam and Eve..jeez....I'm dealing with this very thing at work...I work with 2 other women...one Mexican one from Iran.(I think)..somewhere MiddleEastern...they're all the same...(just kidding)
but this one woman is always talking about how the Iranian one is...those people this and that...stupid ,ignorant,uneducated...MY GOD! Shut up...I actually like her...we chat and we laugh together...yeah she lives a little differently..her ways are a bit different...but in all truth,we all want the same things in life...she speaks with an accent and just becaus eof that you think they're stupid?...I want to slap people who judge...Hello...she speaks with a spanish accent...wake up

anyway...I'm rambling

As I said before...I just never knew how many differences you guys have among yourselves...and how so many of you can't come eye to eye with each other...it's very interesting to me and wonder that because of this . is this a reason why the rest of society has a hard time?....the one's that can't figure out....we see the conflicts...I'm just wondering



Title: Re: Is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: milomorris on October 22, 2007, 03:17:14 PM
As I said before...I just never knew how many differences you guys have among yourselves...and how so many of you can't come eye to eye with each other...it's very interesting to me and wonder that because of this . is this a reason why the rest of society has a hard time?....the one's that can't figure out....we see the conflicts...I'm just wondering

I don't think our internal conflicts have anything at all to do with people not accepting us. The basic bias is due to the fact that we have sex with members of the same gender, and people hold that bias for a number of reasons: religious, personal, etc. But there are certainly other biases that have more to do with the way some individual homosexuals live their lives.

Milo
Title: Re: Is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Dal on October 22, 2007, 04:35:55 PM
.I just never knew how many differences you guys have among yourselves...and how so many of you can't come eye to eye with each other...it's very interesting to me and wonder that because of this . is this a reason why the rest of society has a hard time?
No, it's not.  The rest of society has even less inkling of the differences between us than you did, before coming here.  They don't care about our differences;  why should they?  As Milo says, society has quite other reasons for having a 'hard time' with us.
Title: Re: Is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: gavern on October 22, 2007, 04:36:51 PM
If people chose to look beyond the "sexual act' it would certainly relieve their minds in whatever they see "wrong" about it. 9 times out of 10 what they don't agree with is actually in themselves, a part they are struggling with due to social conditioning from the moment they were born. If a book never said "Thou thalt not lie with a man blah blah blah" then most people in my opion would have absolutely NO PROBLEM with it. You can tell the bible (or that part at least) was written by a man because it makes no mention of it being wrong for two woman to "lie" with each other, and we all know how much straight men love seeing two woman toegther. In my opinion it's a complete, control based, outdated, fear based load of trash. Even the Celts that exsited well before "the book" was even invented, completely tolerated male to male love, it was until "StPatrick" tried convert them that they said "oooh no this is wrong', interesting why they didn't say it was "wrong" for animals to do that. Mmm interesting, I'm glad that my family elolved out of religion and into spirituality, it made us so much happier, our lives improved, our friends improved, and peace just seemed to start flowing, no more fear, no more "sin' and no more plain right guilt and and control, just pure love and acceptance. People are more controlled by their religions than they care to admit, I have a sugestion for them: try and focus on the love and positive parts of your religion ~ steer clear from the negative parts (man made parts), and also have a good look at our galaxies and the Universe before you try and justify it als per the Bible.
Title: Re: Is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Jeff Wrangler on October 22, 2007, 04:47:49 PM
What I found disheartening about the gay cowboys that Jack knows was the unwillingness even to meet any of us who were coming out to Colorado for the barbecue. As Jack portrayed these guys, they come off to me as insular (even, it strikes me, kind of snooty, actually, in their own way) and, well, prejudicial and intolerant--and prejudicial and intolerant of fellow homosexuals. That's what I find disheartening.

Ah...I see. I tend to agree with you on that count. While I do not expect anyone to automatically accept or respect me, I do expect them to give me a chance to prove myself. What angers me is when people don't give me a chance because they have already made up their minds about me because of my color or orientation.

Milo

Exactly! (Nods head in vigorous agreement. ...)

And if we can't even do this among ourselves, what hope do we have, really?  :-\
Title: Re: Is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Dal on October 22, 2007, 06:23:28 PM
And if we can't even do this among ourselves, what hope do we have, really?  :-\
We're no better or worse than any other group of millions of people in regard to tolerance.  'Oppressed' groups really generally are not.  We should not expect too much of ourselves as a group.  We're human.  That's how humans behave.  We can't be angels.
Title: Re: Is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: gavern on October 22, 2007, 06:38:47 PM
Actually we are all angels :D  (most of the time >:D)
Title: Re: Is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Brokeback_1 on October 23, 2007, 06:03:09 AM
Jeff and Milo--

I asked 7 guys in all. I know 4 of those guys very well. Four of the 7 are partnered up, and of that 4 I have met only 2 partners. Of the 4 I know well, 2 are partnered. In one of the partnered families I don't know that well yet it is a 3sum, MMF. Of the 7, all are Wyoming born and bred. One is a 'First Settler' family, the youngest. Most are in their 40's, the youngest, who I get on very well with since  he is in my 12Step program for booze,  is 23, and inherited a big spread northeast of Cheyenne when his father died 3 years ago. The oldest is  about 54 or so and has never been south of Pueblo Colorado or north of Helena, Montana, east of Iowa or west of Boise...but he HAS been to Europe a bunch of times,and  likes Italy. Is PASSIONATE about Italy, is leaning Italian. He also rodeod when he was late teens, early 20's.

Following are some details and impressions.

One lived in NYC [& i ain't jokin! } for 5 years when he went to college. Another went to the U of California in Los Angeles, and the 3rd in Miami, Florida.

All 3 RAN back within 2 years of graduation. The reasons were classic Proulxian Wyoming Reasons lol:
Too green in the east; too humid in Florida; too spaced out in LA: "and those sumbitches have EARTHQUAKES no way in hell!"
The air??>>>> 'dead air, no wind, hard to breathe out there' from all 3.
Gay men? Gay men in NYC as a group were too self obsessed. Gay men in LA as a group they were too silly. Gay men in Miami as a group too flamboyant.

'Gay men from away talk too much and say too little.' The exact intent of that quote from one, has been said by all 3 in one form or the other. 'Say what you mean and then STFU', literally from not just all 3 but all 7.

Women were a mystery in NYC. Too many women were silly in LA. Too many women were too into plastic surgery in Miami.

People in general were too crowded in NY, too crowded in LA and too crowded in Miami. They hated all the traffic. ALL of them. Since normal traffic on the interstate up north is 2 cars in view, total, either direction, and 7 total during rush hour>>> I get it!

NYC was too fast but the energy was also adored. So was the NY Philharmonic. LA gets a shrug along with mention of great bodies. Miami got tales of bugs. Big bugs roflmao. And beaches.

ALL missed solitude when they lived away. Being able to just see NOTHING for 40 miles. As in seeing NOTHING.

All 3 missed horses.

Paradoxically, all 3 loved the variety of people. All 3 bemoan the fact that the ONLY language you hear up north is English. All 3 complained [!!!] that everybody in Wyoming thinks alike: 'Day I meet someone who has different views, is the day I shoot myself' LOL

All 3 speak about the music, books and culture you can find even in a place like Miami. All 3 complain about the lack of it up north.

All 7 are hardly hicks. I'd say they are pretty sophisticated. Not one is in any way or form flamboyant. Of the 7, 5 are actually real-deal-genuine-article cowboy: vest, boots, hat [when warranted] and saddle. All 7 can shoe a horse. All 7 goof on me for damned near wearing my cowboy hat into the shower roflmao, I LUV my hat.

Not one--not one--is in any shape or form xenophobic or racist. They think it's plain dumb. Six of the 7 are republicans who voted for Dave as Dem governor, all 7 voted for Bush first time, all 7 voted for Kerry this time, 2 intend to vote for hillsypoo next time and the others are examining why they are in a party that says one thing and does another.

Some do not care for gay bars. They feel uncomfortable. The fellow who lived in NY said he did so well as an NYU scholarship student when he wore hat and boots that he loved themfor a while. At the time. Until he was made to feel like a zoo specimen when they realised his drawl and hat were the real deal. HE met his partner in NY and they moved back when the partner saw how increasingly unhappy he was in an urban situation. THAT's one partner I have met, I was floored, recognised the Brooklyn accent when he said 'what's up?' roflmao.

Not one IN PERSON judges a gay man for his behaviour, or any other man for that matter unless the person in question is a true dick. Not one would feel comfortable with public affection---but I doubt they'd care for M/F in public either. Not one of those guys is a stick in the mud. The one my wife met, she freaking adored on sight.

They are just wyoming boys, all 7.

and not a one of them really likes Denver roflmao.
Title: Re: Is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Jeff Wrangler on October 23, 2007, 06:56:38 AM
Paradoxically, all 3 loved the variety of people. All 3 bemoan the fact that the ONLY language you hear up north is English. All 3 complained [!!!] that everybody in Wyoming thinks alike: 'Day I meet someone who has different views, is the day I shoot myself' LOL

And yet, per you, they had no interest in meeting any of us folks coming from away for the barbecue. People are funny, ain't they?  ;)
Title: Re: Is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: milomorris on October 23, 2007, 07:53:23 AM
They are just wyoming boys, all 7.

Thank you very, very much for offering us more detail on your experience with these fellas. The BIG message I got from reading this is that there really is no place like home. I try to imagine what it would be like to swap places with these guys, and the idea makes me uncomfortable as hell. I barely survived 9 months in Nebraska, and Lincoln--with a population of about 190,000 at the time--was considered a big city.

What I think is important is that these guys appear to be essentially and practically no different from any other Wyoming boys, and that identity is not overwhelmed by their sexual orientation.

Milo
Title: Re: Is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Jeff Wrangler on October 23, 2007, 09:12:03 AM
What I think is important is that these guys appear to be essentially and practically no different from any other Wyoming boys, and that identity is not overwhelmed by their sexual orientation.

And isn't that a relief from the "professional homosexuals" of this world?

I mean that, seriously.
Title: Re: Is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Brokeback_1 on October 23, 2007, 10:27:57 AM
Well, I dislike professional anybodies.

You can add professional homosexuals to that list, but I have ta say I'd a never thought of that one all on my own!

Professional Homosexuals!!!!!!!!!!!!! lolololol, I am dyin here!

That truly is funny!
Title: Re: Is society really as accepting as it claims?
Post by: Brokeback_1 on October 23, 2007, 10:29:55 AM
Just remembered this---you know, about a year ago I met a forum member up there for dinner. Very cool guy who hasn't posted in ages. He was the same sort as the cowboys, reserved, unflamboyant etc. But HE would have liked a few gay clubs up there. And he said a n umber of families had difficulty accepting gay members.

The guys I mentioned, the only extended family with a problem bel